IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. : 95-0133 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Washington, D.C. Thursday, May 13, 1999 Deposition of JOHNNY CHUNG a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, 3rd and Constitution, N.W., Washington, D.C. commencing at 7:50 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA UTGOFF BRASWELL, ESQ. Assistant United States Attorney U.S. Attorney's Office 555 Fourth Street, N.W. 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 ELISE PACKARD, ESQ. U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Deponent: BRIAN A. SUN, ESQ. O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun LLP 1000 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 700 Santa Monica, California 90401-1142 Also present: Thomas Fitton, President, Judicial Watch Jason Aldrich, Esq., Judicial Watch Mike Pendleton, Esq., Judicial Watch Stacey Cohen, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun LLP Bob Abernathy 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 5 CHUNG DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 1 Notice of deposition duces tecum and subpoena 7 No. 2 Documents produced by Mr. Sun on behalf of Mr. Chung 11 No. 3 Written testimony of Johnny Chung before Senate Government Reform Committee 15 No. 4 Documents compiled by Government Reform Committee 40 No. 5 Business Leadership Forum information 75 No. 6 Business Development Mission to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong 100 No. 7 Information regarding Associate Attorney General Raymond C. Fisher 116 No. 8 AISI brochure 133 No. 9 DNC Managing Trustee Events & Membership Requirements 143 No. 10 NBC news article "Johnny Chung's tale of cash, access" by Robert Windrem and Julie Huang 176 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is 3 the video deposition of Johnny Chung taken by the counsel 4 for the Plaintiff in the matter of Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 v. U.S. Department of Commerce held in the U.S. District 6 Court for the District of Columbia, Case No. 95-0133, held 7 in the chambers of Judge John Facciola at the U.S. District 8 Court for the District of Columbia, on this date, May 13, 9 1999 and at the time indicated on the video screen, which is 10 7:50 a.m. 11 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am the videographer. 12 The court reporter today is Rita Hemphill from the firm of 13 Diversified Reporting. 14 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, Chairman and General 16 Counsel of Judicial Watch. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. SUN: Brian Sun, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun on 19 behalf of Mr. Chung. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me also put on the record Mike 21 Pendleton and Jason Aldrich, attorneys, Judicial Watch, are 22 also present in the room. 23 MR. SUN: Also behalf of Mr. Chung is my legal 24 assistant, Stacey Cohen, and a friend of Mr. Chung's, Bob 25 Abernathy. 5 1 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the 2 U.S. Attorney's office, on behalf of the Department of 3 Commerce. 4 MS. PACKARD: Elise Packard, Office of General 5 Counsel, Department of Commerce. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter please 7 swear in the witness? 8 Whereupon, 9 JOHHNY CHUNG 10 was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn, 11 was examined and testified as follows: 12 THE COURT REPORTER: Please state your full name 13 for the record. 14 THE WITNESS: My name is Johnny Chung. I reside in 15 18401 Norwalk Boulevard, Artesia, California. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 17 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Chung, have you ever been deposed before? 20 In other words, has anyone ever taken your testimony? 21 Other than Congress just two days ago? 22 A The FBI, Department of Justice -- 23 MR. SUN: Grand jury. 24 THE WITNESS: Grand jury. 25 6 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You appeared before a grand jury. 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Have you ever appeared in any civil proceeding 5 before, not criminal, but civil? 6 MR. SUN: Do you understand his question? 7 Are you asking, Larry, if he's been deposed in any 8 civil proceeding? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 MR. SUN: He may have had some civil proceedings 12 before, but I don't think he's been deposed. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Aside from the sworn testimony that you provided on 15 Tuesday to the Government Reform Committee, has the 16 Government Reform Committee ever taken sworn testimony from 17 you under oath? 18 A That was yesterday? I mean, that was day before 19 yesterday? 20 Q Yes. 21 A Yes. 22 Q They have done that? 23 MR. SUN: Other than yesterday's testimony? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Other than two days ago, on Tuesday. 25 MR. SUN: He's asking you if you've been sworn 7 1 under oath prior -- 2 THE WITNESS: Day before yesterday. 3 MR. SUN: Other than that time. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 6 reporter to mark as Exhibit 1 to Mr. Chung's deposition. 7 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 1 8 was marked for identification.) 9 MR. SUN: By the way, to clarify the record, he has 10 met with staff of the Government Reform Committee, but he was 11 not under oath. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Exhibit 1, Mr. Chung, is a notice of deposition 14 duces tecum, which is lawyers' language for a notice for you 15 to appear today, and attached to that is a subpoena in this 16 lawsuit. 17 Have you seen these documents before? 18 A I did not, but my attorney -- my attorney told me 19 we already received. Yes. 20 Q But you've never seen the document before? 21 A No. This is the morning I see it, but I trust my 22 attorney. He told me that already. 23 Q The subpoena requires your bringing to this 24 deposition certain documents and things that are listed on 25 Appendix A to the subpoena. It says Appendix A at the top. 8 1 Do you see that, Appendix A? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Have you ever seen Appendix A before? 4 A I don't, but I trust my attorney. 5 Q Has anyone ever discussed what is requested in 6 Appendix A with you? 7 A No. I don't. 8 Q And I take it you've never searched for the 9 documents and things requested in Appendix A? 10 A No, I don't. But I already gave all of my 11 documentation to my attorney's office already. 12 MR. SUN: If it would help you, Mr. Klayman, what 13 we did was upon receipt of your subpoena, since my firm had 14 custody of Mr. Chung's documents, we endeavored to undertake 15 a search for documents that we thought might be responsive to 16 the categories listed in the subpoena. 17 For the record, I'm going to hand to you a set of 18 documents that I think is about -- oh, about a half inch 19 thick that we believe is responsive to this. 20 Your Honor, I have one copy. I apologize that I 21 only have two copies with me. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we can make some more. 23 How many do you need? 24 MS. BRASWELL: I just need one copy, if Your Honor 25 please. 9 1 MR. SUN: I apologize to the government. I had a 2 lot of documents that I had to bring on this trip. 3 (Pause.) 4 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll get back to these later. 5 For the moment, I'll just ask that we mark it as composite 6 Exhibit 2, the documents that have been produced today, and 7 I'll read the different documents into the record. 8 Composite Exhibit 2 consists of a letter of 9 January 6, 1994 to Melinda Yee and then there is a 10 Presidential Business Development Mission to Beijing, 11 Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong, the mission led by the 12 Honorable Ron Brown of August 27 to September 3, 1994. 13 There are two photographs, one with Mr. Chung 14 apparently and Ron Brown; one with Mr. Chung and Jude 15 Kearney. 16 There is a letter to Mr. Chung from Mickey Kantor, 17 U.S. Trade Representative, dated April 28, 1995. 18 A letter from Ron Brown to Mr. Chung dated July 28, 19 1995. 20 A letter from Ron Brown to Johnny Chung dated 21 February 14, 1995. 22 A letter dated February 14, 1996 from Ron Brown to 23 Johnny Chung. Attached to it is an Americas Business Forum 24 in Cartagena, Columbia March 18 to 20, 1996, a preliminary 25 program with a registration card attached. 10 1 Then there is a letter of February 14, 1996 from 2 Ronald Brown to Johnny Chung. 3 A fax transmittal sheet to Johnny Chung from the 4 International Business Consulting Company, 1010 Vermont 5 Avenue, which says from Department of Commerce re: Matchmaker 6 Mission. 7 A document attached to that from a Murray 8 Sanderford, Project Manager. 9 A Minority Business Trade and Development 10 Matchmaker 1996 brochure concerning Costa Rica and Honduras, 11 July 15 to 19, 1996 consisting of two pages. 12 A Minority Business Trade and Development 13 Matchmaker 1996 company information form. Attached to that 14 is a Minority Business Trade and Development Matchmaker trade 15 delegation to Costa Rica and Honduras, July 15 to 19, 1996. 16 It's called Market Briefs. 17 A Market Summary to Costa Rica, header Minority 18 Business and Trade Development Matchmaker 1996, consisting of 19 two pages. 20 A checklist for forum registration. 21 A letter from Melissa Moss to U.S. Delegation 22 Member dated June 5, 1995. 23 A fax from Kathy Kellogg, Office of Business 24 Liaison, U.S. Department of Commerce, to Mr. Johnny Chung. 25 A letter to Mr. Johnny Chung from Ronald H. Brown, 11 1 undated. 2 MR. SUN: I believe in the upper right-hand corner, 3 on my copy, there's a faint -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. June 20, 1995, the original 5 shows. We'll ask that it's permissible we substitute that. 6 Consisting of two pages and an attachment stating Strategic 7 Partners. 8 A registration form, Big Emerging Markets 9 Conference, U.S. Delegate Registration Form, July 7, 1995, 10 then a partial list of companies participating in BEM, Big 11 Emerging Markets, conference. 12 A draft of a document entitled "The Big Emerging 13 Markets Conference, Georgetown University Leavy Center, 14 Washington, D.C.," July 24th and 25th, consisting of ten 15 pages. 16 A letter from Ronald Brown to Johnny Chung dated 17 February 14, 1995. 18 A letter from Mary L. Good of the Department of 19 Commerce to Mr. Chung dated December 15, 1994. 20 And a letter of January 6, 1994 from Johnny Chung 21 to Melinda Yee. 22 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 2 23 was marked for identification.) 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Are these all the documents that your attorney is 12 1 producing, Mr. Chung, pursuant to the subpoena which was 2 served upon you? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you currently have any documents related to any 5 of your business activities at your office or at your house? 6 A Office? Most of them in office, I give it to my 7 attorney. 8 Q But I take your attorney did not search your office 9 in response to the subpoena which is Exhibit 1? 10 A I already handed all my documentation to my 11 attorneys since the day one when the campaign finance scandal 12 broke and also I take it to the FBI -- or let me repeat. I 13 voluntarily allowed the FBI to search my office voluntarily 14 and then so many documentation they took away from my office. 15 Yes. And then that's all documentation I have. 16 To answer your question, I hope I answered your 17 question. 18 Q From 1993 to present, have you ever used a 19 computer? 20 A My employee does for me. I am not putting any 21 computer writing or any e-mail. They asked me this question 22 before. 23 Q Have you ever used a laptop computer? 24 A I did use a laptop only for the Internet news. 25 Q Did you ever take a laptop computer on your foreign 13 1 travels? 2 A Never. 3 Q Has anyone searched your various computers in 4 response to the subpoena which is Exhibit 1? 5 A No. And one thing I would like to put it here is I 6 personally did not use that much in computer at all. The 7 only time I use computer is to go into the Internet news. 8 Period. 9 Q Now, you sometimes take notes, correct? Write 10 notes, write things down? 11 A They asked me the same question, too. I really 12 don't take notes. I just memorize here. 13 Q Well, do you record things. You have a list 14 sometimes of your activities so you remember what it is you 15 need to do? 16 A My general manager who had all my schedule, only 17 the schedule, but rarely I write on anything since I was 14. 18 I was punished by my teachers, so I remember everything in my 19 mind. 20 Q You were punished for writing things down or not 21 writing things down? 22 A Writing things down bad about my teachers. So 23 since that day, I don't write anything at all. 24 Q You wrote some nasty things about your teachers and 25 they punished you? 14 1 A When I was joking around with my teachers. So 2 since that I day, I don't take any note at all. 3 Q Have you ever written any nasty things about the 4 Democratic National Committee? 5 A I don't. I don't. 6 Q Or the Commerce Department trade missions? 7 A No, I don't. 8 Q Did anyone check these schedules before today? 9 A I'm sorry, I don't understand. 10 Q Did anyone check your schedules, what your 11 assistant keeps for you, in response to the subpoena which is 12 Exhibit 1? 13 A I believe the Department of Justice did try to get 14 all of that. Yes. As I told you, for last two years, there 15 is so many thing going on in my office, people come in and 16 search. I voluntarily allowed them to search. I give all my 17 documentation to my attorney and then all of that is there. 18 That's the best answer I can give it to you. 19 Q Have you ever kept a diary? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Has anyone kept one for you? 22 A Only the schedule. Only the schedule with my 23 general manager. As I told you, I really don't keep 24 anything. I just -- after 14 years old, I don't keep 25 anything. 15 1 Q I take it you're married. 2 A Yes, I am. 3 Q Have your wife ever made notes about your 4 activities? 5 A You mean my trip to go where? 6 Q Such as -- that's just one example, but has she 7 ever written anything down for you or typed anything out for 8 you about your various activities? 9 A No. No. She only -- she only did it on the 10 calendar, there he go somewhere, there he will come back. 11 But that's the only thing. 12 Q We'll come back to this later. 13 A Okay. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you what I'll ask the 15 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 2. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: 3. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: 3. I'm sorry. 18 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 3 19 was marked for identification.) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Exhibit 3 is a copy of your written testimony which 22 you provided on May 11th, that was last Tuesday, to the 23 Government Reform Committee, right? 24 A That's correct. 25 MR. SUN: I would note for the record, Mr. Klayman, 16 1 that the last page of Exhibit 3 is not something prepared by 2 Mr. Chung or submitted as part of the record as his 3 statement. That was prepared by, I believe, the staff of the 4 Government Oversight Committee. Just for the record. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Thank you. 6 THE WITNESS: And I want to make in the record a 7 little bit change. We already talked to the committee -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 9 MR. SUN: Some typos and minor changes. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Who prepared the first written draft of your 13 testimony? 14 A My attorney with my wishes, my -- how do you say -- 15 MR. SUN: Direction? 16 THE WITNESS: My direction. Yes. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q But you didn't write down the thoughts, you relayed 19 to your attorney information and then he prepared it. 20 A That's correct. Because as you know, I'm a first 21 generation immigrant, my English is not as good as my wife 22 and my children, so my attorney prepared this for me. 23 Q Did anyone on the Government Reform Committee help 24 you with your testimony? 25 A Writing this? 17 1 Q Yes. 2 A No. 3 Q Did they suggest changes to it? 4 A No, not that I know. No. 5 Q Did they suggest to put certain things into it or 6 leave certain things out of it? 7 A No. 8 Q Is this testimony true and accurate? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Is there anything you'd like to change other than 11 the typos? 12 A No. Can I say one more thing? 13 Q Sure. 14 A I stand behind my testimony, my statement. 15 Q Okay. In your testimony yesterday -- or two days 16 ago. 17 A Two days ago. 18 Q You made certain statements about the campaign 19 finance system in the United States. Do you remember that? 20 A I do. 21 Q And you stated on page 4, if you could turn to 22 page 4, second paragraph, "I am telling my story to you. I 23 must make one other observation and request. It seems to me 24 that the American people deserve an answer from you 25 politicians who talk a lot about changing and improving the 18 1 system, yet more than two years after this controversy 2 erupted, you, the Congress, have done nothing to change the 3 system. Indeed, within the last month I received in an 4 invitation to a fundraiser where I might have got yet another 5 photo opportunity with some politician, although most of you 6 would probably want to run away from me at this point. 7 "What I want to say here is that I hope my 8 testimony doesn't really end up being a shouting match 9 between you Democrats and Republicans. Your attacking each 10 other or attacking others who have had their reputations 11 ruined in some instances without any justification serves no 12 useful purpose." 13 Who did you get that fundraising invitation from? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. This is way 15 beyond the scope. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled. 17 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I want to join in the 18 objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. It's overruled. 20 MR. SUN: If the objection is overruled, you can 21 answer the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I can answer the question? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 24 THE WITNESS: I received the last few month, the 25 latest one I receive is from the Democratic Congressional 19 1 Committee and one before that I received from the Vice 2 President Al Gore's invitation. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You received an invitation from the Democratic 5 Congressional Committee? 6 A Congressional Campaign Committee. 7 Q Campaign Committee. 8 A That was -- could be one week or ten days ago. 9 Q And what were they offering, if anything? 10 A Asking me to join, just like a regular fundraiser 11 party and one sheet of invitation faxed to my fax machine. 12 And the other one is -- 13 Q Let's stop with that. 14 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I have to interpose an 15 objection for the record. I'm taking a look at the subpoena 16 and Mr. Klayman's motion that this deposition be taken and I 17 would note for the record that it appears that the thrust of 18 the motion seeking the deposition and the appendix here seeks 19 information regarding Mr. Chung's contacts with the U.S. 20 Department of Commerce and in particular the area that I 21 believe that we were trying to respond to was a certain trip 22 that Mr. Chung took to the People's Republic of China in 23 August of 1994 or thereabouts. 24 So I would interpose an objection on scope and 25 relevance and ask for either some proffer or showing as to 20 1 what this line of inquiry has in terms of a connection with 2 the motion which I did not oppose largely because it was my 3 understanding that Mr. Klayman and Judicial Watch were 4 seeking information about Mr. Chung's contacts with the 5 Department of Commerce and in particular that trip which he 6 is fully prepared to respond to today, but I fail to see the 7 relevance of the scope of that with some of these other 8 matters and would interpose that objection. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled, with the understanding 10 that Mr. Klayman will move on to the topic of the deposition, 11 will you not? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. Let's go. 14 MR. SUN: Thank you, Your Honor. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: And this is the topic, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: It deals with his dealings with the 18 DNC and the Commerce Department. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Who sent you that fundraising letter to the 21 Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee? 22 A The only thing I know is the Democratic 23 Congressional Campaign Committee on the top. That's all I 24 know. 25 Q And did they ask you for a certain amount of money? 21 1 A As of this moment, which is seven days ago or ten 2 days ago, Larry, I don't really pay too much attention about 3 that kind of detail. I don't feel good to receive that kind 4 of invitation any more. If you need a copy, I will try to 5 give you a copy. I am sorry, I did not pay too much 6 attention to that. 7 Q What did you do with that fundraising letter? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 10 MR. SUN: Your Honor, may I have just for the 11 record a continuing standing objection? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 13 MR. SUN: Thank you. 14 MS. BRASWELL: I join in that. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You both will have such an 16 objection. 17 THE WITNESS: So I answer? 18 MR. SUN: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. I put it aside, put a smile on 20 it, and just move it on the side of the table. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You smiled or you put a little smile picture on it? 23 A No, I just smiled to the piece of paper and put it 24 on the side. 25 Q Is there a file that you keep these kinds of things 22 1 in in your office? 2 A Not really. Not really. I used to just throw 3 away. 4 Q Was it sent to your home or was it sent to the 5 office? 6 A Which one we talk about? 7 Q This Democratic National Campaign Committee. 8 A Sent it to my office. 9 Q Where is your office? 10 A Torrance, California. 11 Q And what's the address? 12 A 2771 Plaza Del Amo. 13 Q Suite 809, Torrance, California? 14 A Suite 809, Torrance, California. 15 Q 90503. 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And that's Automated Intelligent Systems, Inc., 18 correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q The correspondence that you received from Vice 21 President Gore, where was that sent? 22 A One is in my office, one is at my home. 23 Q The one in your office was sent by mail or by fax 24 or both? 25 A Two, by fax and by mail. 23 1 Q And you received the same thing at home? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And when was that received? 4 A I only can give you the estimate date, Larry, I 5 don't really pay too much attention about this kind of 6 fundraiser letter any more. If I'm not correct, don't blame 7 me, okay? That will be 30 days, approximately 30 days. 8 Q And what was being requested of you? How much 9 money? 10 A I do not pay too much attention, again, but there 11 is some money issue there, but I really -- again, I told to 12 my wife this is not the kind of letters I like to receive any 13 more. 14 Q Did the request invite you to a certain event? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q What event was that? 17 A I don't remember, but I think I'll provide you a 18 copy. 19 Q Okay. Thank you for those two copies. Was the 20 event to take place in the Los Angeles area? 21 A I believe so. Yes. 22 Q Was anyone sponsoring the event on behalf of Vice 23 President Gore? 24 A I believe so, but I'm not sure. I can give you a 25 copy, it will show it there. Let me tell you again after all 24 1 of this happened to me, I don't really pay too much attention 2 to it any more, because I am broke. 3 Q Was there -- do you know a person by the name of 4 Maria Hsia, H-s-i-a? 5 A Yes, I do have the one very, very early time, one 6 encounter. Yes. 7 Q When did you meet her? 8 A Way before 1990, 1991. Could be 1989. One of my 9 business friend at the City of Monterey Park, at that time, I 10 was really trying to establish my fax broadcasting service 11 and answering machine voice mail and I run into Mr. Lin, I 12 believe. 13 Q Mr. or Mrs.? 14 A Mr. Lin, L-i-n. 15 Q What's his first name? 16 A I don't remember. I tried to ask him to join me to 17 set up a company, happen to be Mr. Lin's office was next to 18 Maria Hsia's office at the City of Monterey Park, the best I 19 can give you, Atlantic Boulevard. And he introduced me to 20 her, handshake, business card changing, period. I never 21 talked to her again, I never see her again. 22 Q Do you know what she does for a profession? 23 A At that time, I don't, but later on I read it, in 24 the last two and a half year I have a lot of free time, so I 25 read a lot of the news, a lot of newspaper, I learn it from a 25 1 newspaper she did the immigration consulting for people. 2 That's what I know. 3 Q And you knew that she helped arrange for the 4 Buddhist temple fundraising event for Vice President Al Gore? 5 A I read it from a newspaper, yes. And also watching 6 the TV. 7 Q You're also aware that she has been reported to be 8 an agent for Chinese intelligence. You read that, too, 9 correct? 10 A Well, I read it from the newspaper. That's what I 11 know. 12 Q Did anyone ever tell you that, that she works for 13 the government of China? 14 A No. I never got that. I don't have any connection 15 with her at all. The only thing I read is after the campaign 16 finance broke, all the newspaper and everything, I read it 17 then. 18 MR. SUN: I think you've answered Mr. Klayman's 19 question. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q This fundraising letter from Vice President Gore, 22 were there names of other fundraisers other than Vice 23 President Gore in the letter sponsoring the event? 24 A I don't recall. I have to give you a copy, as I 25 said. I have to give you a copy. 26 1 Q Okay. 2 A I do not pay too much attention to that kind of 3 fundraising letter any more. 4 Q At the first break, if you were to call your 5 office, would they be able to fax that to the judge? 6 MR. SUN: I don't believe Mr. Chung has the Gore 7 invitation. I believe he -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. This is a speaking 9 objection, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I think what Mr. Sun is 11 trying to explain to you is where it is and whether it's 12 possible to get it faxed here. 13 Mr. Klayman, I think we should move on. 14 MR. SUN: Yes, I was endeavoring to do that. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have it? Do you have it, 16 Mr. Sun? 17 MR. SUN: We may have it, but the other one that 18 you referred to, the DCC one, I believe Mr. Chung may have in 19 his office. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Well, I'm going to request at 21 the break to see if we can get copies of that. 22 MR. SUN: Mr. Chung, just wait for his question. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Now, Mr. Chung, you testified on Tuesday to the 25 Government Reform Committee, and I'm paraphrasing, that the 27 1 problem with the American system is that you can get access 2 to politicians and get them to do things if you pay them 3 money, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Where did you first learn that that's the way the 6 system works? 7 A In my statement, it said that the very first time, 8 48 years old birthday for the President, myself, my wife, my 9 daughters and my parents, we went to the birthday party with 10 other Taiwanese American citizens. We went to the party, 11 then I see, I begin to realize and understand. 12 Q Had anyone ever told you before that in the 13 American system you pay politicians campaign contributions 14 and get favors in exchange? 15 A Not at that time. 16 Q Who invited you to the President's birthday party? 17 If anyone. 18 A Reta Lewis of the -- I'm pretty sure assistant to 19 the President at the political affair. 20 MR. SUN: I believe Reta is spelled R-e-t-a. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q How did you come into contact with Ms. Lewis? 24 A I was doing my fax broadcasting business service, 25 try to promote my service to multiple National Governor 28 1 Association. For me, it's easy for me to promote the 2 business at the Washington, D.C. when the National Governor 3 Association all get together, instead of go state after 4 state. 5 I was attending that event, which is any American 6 businessman can go, and I was listening to the President of 7 the United States making a speech to the National Governor 8 Association. I believe it was J.W. Marriott hotel in 9 Washington, D.C. And she came to me and called my name on my 10 name tag and what are you doing over here, then we begin to 11 have a conversation and we have a business card exchange. 12 I tried before that, tried to get White House 13 business if possible I can, as American businessman, to 14 pursue the business opportunity. And then she invited me to 15 go the White House. I take this as a golden opportunity for 16 me to promote my company service. So I did accept the 17 invitation. I went to the White House and then that was the 18 beginning. 19 Q Did someone introduce you to Ms. Lewis? 20 A No. She approached me and we handshake and we 21 introduce each other. 22 Q How was it that you were invited to that event 23 where you met Ms. Lewis? 24 A National Governor Association, anyone -- anyone, 25 any American businessman who pay -- I believe $400 or $500 to 29 1 the event of National Governor Association, you can 2 participate. To buy the ticket and go. And that was 3 non-partisan, I believe. 4 Q How did you learn of that governors association 5 meeting? 6 A After state after state after state traveling, I 7 begin to learn there is a National Governor Association, you 8 don't have to go talk to them all the different state. 9 Larry, you know, we are a great country, we are a big 10 country, and it is so difficult to travel every single state. 11 The best way to meet with them will be the annual meeting. I 12 believe one is in wintertime and one in summertime. 13 Q To summarize your testimony, you wanted to go to 14 this meeting to meet politicians to sell your fax concept. 15 A Yes. That's correct. That's correct. 16 Specifically, I wanted to talk to the press secretary of 17 every governor's office, no matter Republican or Democrat, as 18 long as they can use my service. 19 Q But before you went to that meeting, you understood 20 that one of the ways you could interest politicians in doing 21 business with you was to make contributions to them. 22 A No, I don't. I don't. 23 Q Okay. So you met Reta Lewis. Now, did you ask her 24 how is it that you're able to invite me, Johnny Chung, 25 ordinary citizen to the White House? Were you surprised that 30 1 she could invite you there? 2 A I think that question didn't come up to my mind. 3 The only thing come to my mind is I was really happy I got an 4 opportunity to go to the White House to sell my business 5 ideas and try to promote my business to the White House. It 6 excited me. But that question you asked didn't come up to my 7 mind. 8 Q What was the date of that governors meeting? I 9 apologize if you've already said it. 10 A The best recollection I can give it to you will be 11 '94, I believe -- if I'm wrong, don't blame me, 1994, either 12 January, February or March, National Governor Association in 13 Washington, D.C. 14 Q Before that date, you had corresponded with Hillary 15 Clinton, correct? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q And how did you get to know Hillary Clinton? 18 MR. SUN: Objection as to scope and relevance. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: Answer? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: As I told you, I went state after 23 state after state for my business promotion. After 1992, 24 between October and November, I tried to do my business 25 promotion, I tried to call so many governors association. 31 1 And I come up with the idea the fax broadcasting can be used 2 for campaign purpose. 3 And what I did is I called then the governor's 4 office of Arkansas, I talked to the people. I believe I 5 spent a lot of money on the phone trying to get everybody 6 interested. And then I talked to a lady, if I am right, it 7 will be Ashley Bell. She worked for the governor's office of 8 Arkansas. And then I told her that my system is good for 9 campaign purpose and later on then the governor, Bill 10 Clinton, become the president-elect. 11 On November 20, if I am wrong, it's a pretty close 12 date, of 1992, there is one small business kind of meeting, 13 then the governor of Arkansas, president-elect, called a 14 meeting at Little Rock, Arkansas, and that was the time I 15 went to the Little Rock, Arkansas and talked to Ashley Bell 16 and she told me that if you want to promote it, you can go to 17 the arena, I don't remember -- the conference area. 18 I come close to have the First Lady -- First Lady, 19 Hillary Clinton, was there and then I asked her to take a 20 picture and that was take a picture, that was it. And later 21 on, I will continue to send the letters and try to ask them 22 as American businessman, American entrepreneur, try to 23 promote a business. 24 And later on, I remember I heard from someone her 25 father was ill, I was doing the business in southern state, 32 1 so I would try to go back to the state of Arkansas, the 2 governor's office, try to get the business. And then I 3 stopped by at the hospital and write a very small note say I 4 wish -- I don't remember what I said, but basically I said 5 best wishes for your father and we will be praying for him. 6 And that was my first lady's handwriting. 7 And later on, I received a letter from her to say 8 thank you about my letter. That was all I can remember. 9 MR. SUN: So to inquire of the reporter, is 10 Mr. Chung speaking loud enough for you? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Mr. Chung, not withstanding your empathy for Mrs. 14 Clinton and her father, that you felt bad, you also knew that 15 it would be beneficial to get to know her in a business 16 context. 17 A Yes. That's correct. That's correct. But with 18 the letter, I give it to her was with sympathy. That was 19 with my sympathy. 20 Q Correct. But you knew it didn't do any harm to 21 express your sympathy -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- to her to develop the relationship for business 24 purposes as well. 25 A Yes. In case I got it. That's right. 33 1 Q And when you had the conversation with Reta Lewis, 2 did you mention to her that you had corresponded with 3 Mrs. Clinton? 4 A I believe so. I believe so. It's very difficult 5 to talk about it. This is 1993 and 1994. I believe so. I 6 don't have an exactly recollection. I may have mentioned to 7 her. 8 Q Did Mrs. Lewis say I have to get the permission of 9 Hillary Clinton before you come over? 10 A She didn't say that to me. She did not say that. 11 Q Did she say she had to check to see if you could 12 get entry into the White House? 13 A No, she did not. She just arranged me to go. 14 Q Mrs. Lewis knew of you before you actually met her 15 at that governors meeting at the Marriott. 16 A To my knowledge, I don't think so. To my 17 knowledge, I don't think so. Maybe she could, but at the 18 first conversation to each other, I don't think she know me. 19 Q Why do you believe, what facts or whatever, do you 20 believe you were invited to the White House by Mrs. Lewis? 21 A My best recollection, Larry, I think that we have 22 the same conversation later on inside the White House when 23 she introduced me to Maggie Williams and we come out with a 24 conversation that she said, oh, you are the one who is 25 running around over there in Little Rock, Arkansas governor's 34 1 office, I didn't know that. That's the only sentence I can 2 remember at this time. 3 Q I'm sorry if I didn't understand completely, but 4 Ms. Lewis made reference to your prior contact with Maggie 5 Williams at that governors event? 6 A No. No. I mean later on when I was inside the 7 White House and then she introduced Maggie Williams to me and 8 then -- I give my best recollection, she said, oh, you are 9 the one -- Ms. Lewis said you are the one who are running 10 around at the then governor's office in Arkansas, trying to 11 get the business for the fax broadcasting and I said I am the 12 one. So with that kind of conversation, I thought maybe she 13 doesn't know who I am. 14 MR. SUN: Mr. Chung, I believe Mr. Klayman was 15 trying to ask -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait. I understand what he said. 17 MR. SUN: -- was trying to ask you -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait. 19 MR. SUN: To make it clear to the record -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Gentlemen. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I object to this kind 22 of -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Chung, step out for a second. 24 Step outside, please. Go in the jury room. 25 (The witness was excused.) 35 1 MR. SUN: Your Honor, Mr. Chung, I think as he's 2 indicated on the record, has some difficulty in communicating 3 in English. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 5 MR. SUN: From time to time, in our experience, 6 it's been important for me as his counsel to try clarify 7 questions so he doesn't get himself in trouble on the record. 8 It's a relatively insignificant matter, but I 9 believe Mr. Klayman had asked Mr. Chung a question of why did 10 he essentially think he had been invited to the White House 11 by Ms. Lewis. 12 I believe Mr. Chung's answer was non-responsive and 13 I was trying to help Mr. Klayman in getting that question 14 asked and answered properly. That was my only intent. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to be adversarial with 16 Brian here, Mr. Sun, because I've dealt with a lot of people 17 from overseas myself, I was an international lawyer, and I 18 was going to give him a chance to work his way through it. 19 I understand the problems and I'm not going to in 20 any way take advantage of him by trying to put words in his 21 mouth, but I was going to back and let him reconstruct it. 22 MR. SUN: Well, I'm interested in moving this along 23 and I've already stated my objection to this line of inquiry, 24 so why don't we move it along? 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Why don't we do this. If 36 1 you sense, Mr. Sun, that Mr. Chung and the question have 2 passed like ships in the night, why don't you take a moment 3 and ask if you can consult with your client for a second and 4 then he can clarify things. 5 I think that would be preferable than in effect you 6 answering the question, because Mr. Klayman is entitled to 7 the witness answering the question. 8 MR. SUN: Very well, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: By the same token, we do have a 10 problem, the witness is giving testimony under oath, as his 11 attorney, you have an obligation to make sure he doesn't get 12 himself subsequently in trouble. So why don't you do that. 13 Because it seems to me at times he does have difficulty 14 understanding the question and articulating a response. 15 MR. SUN: Our experience has been, Your Honor, that 16 particularly with lawyers we all have a penchant to sometimes 17 make a speech before we ask the question and so that's where 18 Mr. Chung, like all witnesses, begins to lose question, 19 particularly with the language problem. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me suggest that, that before 21 Mr. Sun consults with Mr. Chung, give me an opportunity to 22 rephrase the question because I understand these kinds of 23 things, I've had a lot of experience with these kinds of 24 things. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But you can see he's struggling, 37 1 Mr. Klayman. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. I was actually going to -- 3 MR. SUN: He has struggled -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I was actually going to do exactly 5 what Mr. Sun was proposing to try to get back and draw it 6 together. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's try to proceed in that 8 fashion. By the same token, if you think he's having 9 trouble -- 10 MR. SUN: Very well, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- you've got an obligation to 12 protect him, don't hesitate to ask for some time to speak 13 with him. 14 MR. SUN: And, Your Honor, just for the record, 15 before Mr. Chung comes back in, I am not objecting that 16 much to this line of inquiry because I think we're in a 17 timeframe in August of 1994 that is actually relevant to 18 the inquiry that's raised in this matter, but, again, I 19 would interpose an objection because I don't see any of these 20 questions related to the Commerce Department at this 21 juncture. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Your objection will be overruled. 23 MR. SUN: Thank you. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If he's ready? 25 (The witness returned.) 38 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Please have 2 a seat. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Chung, what I was trying to get to, and you can 5 stop me any time if you're not sure of what I'm saying 6 because all we want to get at is the truth and I'm sure 7 you'll give it us if you hear the question correctly. 8 A I'm here to tell you the truth. 9 Q Okay. But what I'm trying to get at is did you 10 later learn from this conversation in the White House that 11 they knew about your prior activities in Little Rock, that 12 Ms. Lewis knew who you were when she invited you to the White 13 House at the governors meeting at the Marriott? 14 A I have to do my memory search. I don't remember 15 what she said to me, but I do remember Maggie Williams said 16 to me I know you, I heard about you at the Little Rock, 17 Arkansas. 18 Q Okay. So at that point in time or thereafter, did 19 it go through your mind that's why Reta Lewis invited me 20 because they already knew me at the White House? 21 MR. SUN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Just your state of mind. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't have any opinion about it, so 25 I cannot say yes or no. 39 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you get the feeling, did you get the impression 3 that Hillary Clinton had sent Reta Lewis to invite you to the 4 White House? 5 A I cannot answer this question because this is pure 6 my own opinion or something. 7 Q You can give your own opinion. This is just 8 discovery. 9 A To be honest, I never think about this question. I 10 was so excited I could get into the White House, try to get 11 my business before them. I don't give a thought about this 12 at all. I never think about that at that time. 13 Q Let's think about it now. It does make sense, 14 doesn't it? That's why you were invited, because they knew 15 of you. 16 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. Asked and 17 answered. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: Shall I answer? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 21 THE WITNESS: Larry, after this time, maybe that 22 was the way they tried to -- tried to know me or try to 23 solicit me. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Solicit you, you said? 40 1 A Yes. That's the word I used. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 3 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 4. 5 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 4 6 was marked for identification.) 7 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a composite exhibit of documents 8 which were compiled by the Government Reform Committee and it 9 will speed things along giving it to you as a composite 10 exhibit. And I turn your attention, there's a minority staff 11 report on the top, "Johnny Chung's Statements and the 12 Supporting Documents," and then -- 13 THE WITNESS: That's the majority staff. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Majority staff. And then after 15 page 12, it says exhibits. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q And the very first exhibit is Exhibit 1, it's a 18 letter from Hillary Rodham Clinton to you, Johnny Chung, at 19 Telform, Inc., West Covina, California 91791. Is this a 20 prior company that you owned? 21 A Yes, this is the company before Automated 22 Intelligent System, Inc. Yes. That was trying to do the 23 voice mail and fax retrieval system. Yes. 24 Q Did that company go into bankruptcy? 25 A Not really go bankruptcy. I mean, that company 41 1 convert to AISI. Yes. 2 Q You rolled it into -- made it -- it later became 3 Automated Intelligent Systems, Inc.? 4 A Yes. That's correct. 5 Q Okay. Now, this letter from Mrs. Clinton says, 6 "Thank you for your letter and my apologies for not getting 7 back to you sooner. It appears from the correspondence you 8 have had with federal and state officials and with the 9 private sector that you are already on the right track. 10 Nevertheless, I wish you good luck with your innovative 11 system. Sincerely yours, Hillary." 12 This is a letter which you received from 13 Mrs. Clinton in or around April 26, 1993, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And from this letter, it was your understanding 16 that Mrs. Clinton was interested in your fax system, correct? 17 A Encouraged me. Encouraged me. This letter really 18 encouraged me. Interested -- interested, I don't know. It 19 encouraged me. With this letter, it really opened a lot of 20 doors for me, for the meeting. 21 Q So having this letter in hand, you were able to 22 show this letter from Hillary Clinton to prospective 23 businesses to interest them in doing business with you. 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And it was your understanding that Mrs. Clinton 42 1 sent you that letter for that purpose. 2 MR. SUN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 THE WITNESS: Only thing I know, it helped me to 5 promote my business. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You at that time had met Mrs. Clinton, correct? 8 A Once. 9 Q And your impression was that she was a very 10 intelligent woman. 11 A Yes. 12 Q So you didn't think she sent you this letter for no 13 reason, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And you felt she was trying to help you. 16 A I thought she tried to help me. Yes. 17 Q And what is said in the right-hand column? I take 18 it that's Chinese. 19 A Yes. That's my handwriting. United States First 20 Lady Hillary, letter sent to me. 21 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. 22 A It says the First Lady of the United States Hillary 23 Clinton letter to me. That's it. 24 Q Okay. And at that time, you understood that 25 Mrs. Clinton would probably want something in exchange some 43 1 day, correct? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Calls for speculation. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 MR. SUN: Join in the objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I do not know at that time. I do not 6 know at that time. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Based on your experience in life, when people 9 generally give you something, they want something in 10 exchange, correct? 11 A I learned that later on, but at that time, I'm 12 very -- American entrepreneur, just trying to do whatever I 13 can, but I did learn that later on. At that time, I don't. 14 Q Okay. Now, turning to Exhibit 2, these are various 15 photographs of you with politicians. This wasn't sent to you 16 with the letter by Hillary Clinton, correct? 17 A No, this is a picture I took, as I told you, at the 18 National Governor Association, a different event. One is in 19 Boston, one is in Washington, D.C., one is Vermont, I think. 20 Another one Washington, D.C. and Boston. 21 Q Was this the one in Washington that these pictures 22 come from? The one we've just been discussing? 23 A Mixed. 24 Q Mixed? 25 A Yes. It show to you how aggressive -- I tried to 44 1 get all of the governors to use my service. Republican or 2 Democrat, I don't care. 3 Q Now, the next exhibit, Exhibit 3, is the business 4 card that Reta Lewis gave to you at the governors meeting in 5 Washington at the Marriott, correct? 6 A She give me twice. I take it as one of them is 7 this. One is Marriott Hotel, one is she gave it to me in 8 White House. She gave me twice. 9 Q Two cards. 10 A Two cards. 11 Q You don't know which one this is? 12 A They are identical. 13 Q They're identical. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. Now, what else did you discuss with 16 Ms. Lewis at that governors meeting? 17 A What kind of business I've been doing, why I'm 18 here, and then later on she invite me to go to White House. 19 Q Did you meet anybody else from the White House at 20 the governors meeting at the Marriott? 21 A Handshake first time with the President and pass 22 by. That's it. 23 Q During that meeting at the governors meeting at the 24 Marriott, did someone tell you that the Department of 25 Commerce was going to be conducting some trade missions 45 1 overseas? 2 A No. No. Not at that time. 3 Q Not at that time. 4 A No. 5 Q Okay. And did you have any discussions at that 6 meeting or at any governors meetings in and around this time 7 that the U.S. Government could help you do business? 8 A I don't ask -- I don't know how to ask. I don't 9 know how to ask. 10 Q So that didn't come up at the meeting. 11 A No. 12 Q Okay. At the time of this meeting, were you a 13 Democratic National Committee managing trustee? 14 A No. 15 Q Later you became a managing trustee. 16 A I don't even know until campaign finance broke, I 17 come to know I am trustee. I did not know I was a trustee 18 until campaign finance scandal broke and the news accounts 19 say I am a trustee and then I didn't understand what that 20 mean, trustee. 21 Q We'll get back to that later. Up to that point in 22 time of the meeting at the Marriott, had you ever met anybody 23 else from the Clinton administration? 24 You had met Mrs. Clinton, you had met Reta Lewis. 25 Had you met anybody else? 46 1 A Maybe, yes, I don't recall. Yes. 2 Q And after the governors meeting, did you then make 3 contact with Ms. Lewis so you could get into the White House? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q How did that happen? 6 A I think I called her and tried to set up the 7 meeting and then she invited me and then I went to the White 8 House. 9 Q What did she say on the phone conversation? 10 A I tried to promote my fax broadcasting and then 11 that was the first conversation, what kind of fax 12 broadcasting service I can provide. What kind of business 13 I've been doing. Is there a possibility they can use my 14 service or not. 15 Later on, we been talk the first time and I did 16 talk to one of my shareholder and also my friend. He was 17 then the president of Taiwanese American Association, 18 American citizen. 19 Q What association was that? 20 A That was called Taiwanese American Association in 21 the United States. 22 Q Okay. 23 A And then he was eager to -- I'm talking about 24 American citizen. Every one of them American citizen. They 25 are thinking about to have the U.S. passport birthplace 47 1 instead of writing China, they want to put Taiwan. And then 2 somebody told me that can we set up a meeting over there at 3 the White House try to tell them about that, our message as 4 American citizen, we have a right to do so. 5 And then I also talked to Ms. Lewis, Reta Lewis, 6 about this and she said she can set up a meeting for us at 7 the Indian Treaty Room at the White House. 8 Q Was anything else discussed during the 9 conversation? 10 A That's all I remember. 11 Q So how long was it after that conversation that you 12 went to the White House? 13 A I don't recall. Could be weeks, could be a month. 14 I don't recall. Could be weeks, could be a month. But there 15 is a record of the -- the WAVE record of the White House and 16 then you can see the last time and the first time that we get 17 in. That may be the record. 18 Q We'll turn to Exhibit 4. Does this help you 19 refresh your recollection as to when you then went to the 20 White House? This is the WAVE log. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Secret Service WAVE log. You've become very 23 sophisticated. You know what a WAVE log is? 24 A Yes, I do. I've been doing it a lot. 25 Q You've been at the White House a lot? 48 1 A Yes. Is there a date here? I don't see any date. 2 MS. BRASWELL: It's cut off at the top. The search 3 date. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Well, let's turn to this chronology which the 6 majority staff prepared, the second page, the second page of 7 Exhibit 4, wherein it states "On August 2, 1994, John Huang, 8 Johnny Chung and Melinda Yee were invited to the White House 9 by Reta Lewis to discuss an issue of interest to 10 Taiwanese-Americans. Huang and Chung entered the White House 11 together. Chung met with Huang, Yee and Lewis in the Indian 12 Treaty Room. White House entrance records indicate that 13 Huang, Chung and Yee entered the White House on August 2, 14 1994 and were signed in by an individual with the last name 15 of Lewis. These records further indicate that Huang and 16 Chung entered and exited the White House at the same exact 17 time. See Exhibit 4." Which is what I referred to, the WAVE 18 logs. 19 Now, reading you that entry made by the majority 20 staff of the Government Reform Committee, that refreshes your 21 recollection, does it not, as to the date that you went to 22 the White House? 23 A I want to make a little bit -- make the record 24 clear. We did not enter into the White House together. We 25 were there with all the group of Taiwanese-American people 49 1 and we were taken to the Indian Treaty Room. And then later 2 on when we sat down, Reta Lewis come in with John Huang and 3 Melinda Yee and that was the very first time I have a chance 4 to know both of them. And then we didn't exit together. No. 5 We don't. Maybe on the record it says the same time. Before 6 that, I did not know John Huang or Melinda Yee. 7 Q But you had heard of John Huang before that. 8 A I don't, but some of the member of the group that 9 we enter, yes. It seems to be, yes, they know him. They 10 know him. 11 Q And they knew him because he was very prominent in 12 the Asian-American community, correct? 13 A Yes. But actually, it was very uncomfortable to 14 have Melinda Yee and John Huang to be there because they are 15 not what they call Taiwanese-American. They are what are 16 called Chinese-American. 17 Q They were born in mainland China? 18 A I don't want to go back to the history, but 19 what I can easily say is Taiwanese-American, they stand 20 out, the Taiwanese-American born in Taiwan and that's 21 Taiwanese-American. And then there is another kind of people 22 they call Chinese-American in Taiwan, which is their parents 23 come from China, okay? 24 Q Right. 25 A And at that time, they can see that they are 50 1 Taiwanese-American, they are talking about the passport being 2 the place of birth is China and they don't want China, they 3 want to put in Taiwan, and we have these two Chinese-American 4 to be there is not appropriate at all. 5 Q You are Taiwanese born. Your ancestors don't come 6 from mainland China. 7 A That's what my grandpa told me, I was 17 generation 8 Taiwanese born. 9 Q Right. You're a Haka? 10 A No, I am not Haka, I am just Taiwan. 11 Q Okay. 12 A They say Haka. No, I am not. But my last name 13 sounds like it. 14 Q Right. And the reputation of Taiwanese born is 15 very hardworking people who built up the island of Taiwan. 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And they feel very proud of their special heritage. 18 A My ancestor told me that they are the very first 19 generation to enter into Taiwan and to cultivate Taiwan. As 20 I know, that was 17 generation. 21 Q Right. President Lee is the first native Taiwanese 22 to ever be the president of Taiwan. 23 A That's what I heard. 24 Q And you're very proud of that. Yes. 25 A I want to make the record clear, both of them to be 51 1 there is not really appropriate for us to be there, but if 2 they are over there, they are over there. 3 Q Had you ever heard of Melinda Yee before? 4 A Never. 5 Q Now, when you recognized that they were there, I 6 take it you and others who are native Taiwanese remarked 7 about their being there. 8 A Yes. I told -- I asked the president of 9 Taiwanese-American association who are they. I expect we are 10 the only Asian group that should be there. And then they 11 mentioned to me uncomfortable and I say, well, they should 12 not supposed to be here. And then that was the situation. 13 Q Did anyone say to you they're here because they're 14 fundraisers? 15 A No, at that time, they don't. 16 Q Did you come to understand that, that that's why 17 they were there? 18 A Later on, yes. 19 Q How did you come to understand that later on? 20 A Because I saw them in so many different fundraiser 21 party. I mean, I didn't get in touch with them or handshake 22 with them, I saw them. Okay. That night on the 48th 23 birthday party, I saw them. 24 Q Did anyone make any remarks about Mr. Huang or 25 Mr. Yee, particular remarks that you can remember? 52 1 MS. BRASWELL: It's Ms. Yee. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Yee. What did I say? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Mr. Yee. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Yee. 5 THE WITNESS: Melinda Yee? No. We just feel very 6 uncomfortable to have two Chinese-American to be there and we 7 are talking about a passport. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Well, I guess what I'm getting at is how did you 10 know that they were Chinese-American and not 11 Taiwanese-American? How did that come up? 12 A Some of the member told me. 13 Q And in that discussion, did they say John Huang, 14 he's a big fundraiser, he's really tied in with the Clintons, 15 anything like that? 16 A Not at that time. 17 Q Same thing with Melinda Yee? 18 A No. 19 Q Did anyone say Mr. Huang is very powerful because 20 he is associated with the Riady family of Indonesia and 21 China? 22 A Not at that time. Not at that time. 23 Q Did that happen later? 24 A Not -- after we all finished the entire event and 25 with the birthday, I asked one of the gentleman who is a 53 1 newspaperman, he called -- he own a newspaper in southern 2 California, Asian-Pacific newspaper, which is I take it is a 3 Taiwanese newspaper, and then he pass away later on. Mr. Wu, 4 I remember. Simon Wu, if I recollect the name. 5 The gentleman told me that he is very involved with 6 the politics. He, John Huang. At that time, I don't really 7 get too much involved with the American politics, I don't 8 know too much. 9 Q Mr. Wu, otherwise known as Ng Lap Seng? 10 A No, no, no. 11 Q Different Mr. Wu? 12 A No. No. No. This Mr. Wu has already pass away. 13 Q Oh, okay. 14 A A Taiwanese-American. The newspaper man. Is 15 American citizen. 16 Q Okay. And you subsequently came to know that Ms. 17 Yee was also very influential. You later learned that. 18 A I later learned that. Yes. 19 Q And who did you learn that from? 20 A I see that when I was in the trip in Beijing. The 21 first trip to Beijing. 22 Q How did you first become aware that she was very 23 influential in the first trip to Beijing? 24 MR. SUN: I would object. Vague and ambiguous, as 25 to the term influential. 54 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 3 THE WITNESS: She set up some -- she could invite 4 me to go to the meeting with the meeting which is provided by 5 the American government to say thank you to the Chinese 6 businessmen and government official and also invite all 7 American businessmen in Beijing to attend, took us in to Ron 8 Brown breakfast speech and I said, okay, you can do that for 9 me, that would be nice. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You later learned that she had some links with the 12 Riady family as well, correct? 13 A I don't. I don't. I have very few knowledge about 14 her. 15 Q We'll take that later. We're going to take this in 16 order and make it easy. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Now, when you entered the White House, did you, 19 Johnny Chung or anyone that you know of, have any 20 conversations with Mr. Huang or Ms. Yee? 21 A That day, I don't. I'm busy taking picture for 22 everybody. 23 Q What kind of camera do you have? 24 A The camera I always bring back to the White House 25 all the time, pocket camera. 55 1 Q Did the people who had conversations with Mr. Huang 2 and Ms. Yee, did they tell you what they discussed? 3 A Again, I want to repeat, at that time, everybody 4 feel uncomfortable. 5 Q Well, I understand that. 6 A Yes. 7 Q But did the people tell you what they discussed 8 with Mr. Huang and Ms. Yee? 9 A No, they only discussed that day with me is that 10 very uncomfortable. That's all I recall. 11 Q You, Johnny Chung, as a general matter, don't feel 12 comfortable with people who come from mainland China. 13 A No. 14 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. Misstates the 15 facts. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: No. I don't feel that way. I was 18 really -- Larry, I want to let you know that my first wife 19 was what you call Chinese-American, so I don't -- I don't 20 really -- my first wife is Chinese-American. I was born in 21 Taiwan. So to answer your question, I don't. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q In fact, you once said to -- was it General Ji or 24 Ms. Liu that you felt like you had Chinese blood in your 25 bones and therefore you wanted to help the Chinese? 56 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. This is so 2 outside the scope. 3 MR. SUN: I would join in that objection. No 4 foundation. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 7 THE WITNESS: I want to help -- first of all, I 8 want to say I am American citizen. I say that to my 9 shareholder, I say that to my friend. I was die-hard 10 Democrat as of that time. And if you are American -- 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You're not a Republican now, are you? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Come on, Mr. Klayman. Let's go. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Okay. Go on. Go on. I'm sorry. 16 A In that kind of situation, as American, you 17 supposed not to think about Taiwanese-Chinese, Communist 18 Party, you don't do that. You are American. You are 19 American. So I try to be friend with all of them. 20 Q In that meeting that you had in the White House, 21 who was present from the White House? Who did you interact 22 with? Who did you meet with? 23 A A group of our people, seven or ten people. Grace 24 Ho from the DNC. 25 Q Grace Ho? 57 1 A Grace Ho. 2 Q H-o? 3 A H-o. I believe she's Korean-American. And John 4 Huang, Melinda Yee, Reta Lewis and one of the lady -- I don't 5 remember the name. From the White House. 6 Q Do you know where in the White House she was from? 7 A I do not remember. 8 Q And did you have a chance -- I take it you had a 9 chance to talk with Grace Ho? 10 A Yes, I do. One day before that. 11 Q One day before that? 12 A One day. 13 Q Did she call you? 14 A She come to the hotel, the hotel we stayed in. 15 Q And what hotel was that? 16 A My best recollection, Doubletree. My wife was 17 complaining about that hotel. It's not really comfortable. 18 Q Did Grace Ho say why she wanted to come to the 19 hotel? 20 A To pick up the donation to the 48 years old 21 birthday. 22 Q Had anyone discussed making a donation to the 23 President's 48th birthday with you before that time? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When was that first discussed? 58 1 A My best recollection I can it to you was before 2 the meeting the DNC people told me that they would come to 3 pick it up, the check, at the hotel that night and the next 4 morning we can go to the meetings at the White House. And 5 then if I'm not wrong, that same night we went to the 48 6 years old birthday. 7 Q Let me see if I have the scenario right. 8 A That's my best recollection. 9 Q Okay. I understand. Ms. Lewis, you meet her at 10 the governors association meeting at the Marriott, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q She tells you I'm going to invite you to the White 13 House for this meeting. 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Does she mention that to get into the White House 16 you have to make a contribution to the President's 48th 17 birthday party fundraiser? 18 A Didn't really -- how do you say it in the American 19 way -- it didn't say face to face that way, the hint. If I 20 use the right American word. 21 Q A hint? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did she say, well, there's a fundraiser for the 24 President for his 48th birthday, it's nice to make a 25 contribution -- 59 1 A Nice to go. Nice to go and also meet with the 2 President. 3 Q Right. And then in the same conversation she 4 invites you to the White House? 5 A To set it up, all of the Taiwanese-American 6 Association meeting. That's the best recollection I have. 7 Exactly the conversation I don't remember. 8 Q Right. So you put, as we say, two and two together 9 and you knew they were going to ask you for something in 10 exchange for inviting you to the White House. 11 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, can I use 70 percent, 30 14 percent? 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. Answer the question as 16 honestly and truthfully as you can. 17 THE WITNESS: Seventy percent I understand, 18 30 percent I still don't understand at that time. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Thirty percent you were hoping they invited you 21 just because they liked you. 22 A Because the see American entrepreneur and 23 70 percent I begin to understand something. 24 Q You began to get the first feeling of how the 25 system worked. 60 1 A That's my testimony a few days ago. 2 Q So Ms. Ho contacts you and what does she say to 3 you? 4 A She come to my hotel room and collect all of the 5 checks. My best recollection, if you don't get all of the 6 checks collect, the meeting that is set up tomorrow -- I 7 don't remember exactly the recollection. I don't remember. 8 Q Did she tell you how much she wanted you to write 9 the check for? 10 A At that time, I believe we don't know. We don't 11 know how much per person and I believe we have the 12 invitation. 13 Q When you say we, who is we? 14 A The whole -- my family, my parents, that newspaper 15 man I told you, Mr. Simon Wu, and also the president of 16 Taiwanese association and the wife, and Simon Wu's wife. 17 Q How did they all find out? Was that discussed at 18 the governor's association meeting? 19 A No, we all come together because we all know that 20 there is a fundraiser -- there is an opportunity -- I will 21 put it this way. Opportunity to meet with the President of 22 the United States, also we come to Washington, D.C. to talk 23 about American passport issue for the Taiwanese-American 24 Association. 25 Q So did they get a solicitation letter or a fax from 61 1 the DNC saying you can get into the White House to discuss 2 this issue of how you list your origin on your passport if 3 you make a contribution for the President's fundraiser for 4 his 48th birthday? 5 A It wasn't like that way. I think I am the one that 6 handled that. Reta Lewis faxed me some letters and then say 7 we are welcome to go to -- she would set it up, the meeting, 8 for Taiwanese-American Association at the White House. And 9 then at a different kind of conversation, she did told me 10 about there's a 48 years old birthday party. And I told this 11 group of people. 12 Q Okay. Turning your attention to Exhibit 5 of 13 Exhibit 4, this is a check written by Automated Intelligent 14 Systems, Inc., $10,000 to the DNC, August 1, 1994. 15 Underneath there's a check tracking form. It says company, 16 AISI, Inc. It lists President's birthday dinner, solicitor 17 Benavides, DNC contact Minyon, M-i-n-y-o-n, and Mercer. 18 Have you ever seen this document before? 19 A Down here, no. The check, I did. I signed it. 20 Q Is this the check you're referring to that you 21 provided before you went to the White House meeting where 22 Melinda Yee and John Huang were also present? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And does this refresh your recollection as to 25 whether or not Ms. Ho asked you for a specific amount of 62 1 $10,000? 2 A I do not recall how much -- a specific amount per 3 person, but I figured it out, how much it will be if my mom, 4 my dad, me, my wife and my daughter, so five people. And 5 then I was calculating at that time, so it could be 2000 per 6 person. And the other gentlemen and ladies, I don't know. 7 That's how much I had to pay. 8 Q Have you ever had any contact with someone by the 9 name of David Mercer? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q Did you have contact with him at around this time? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Before or after Ms. Ho contacted you? 14 A I don't recall. Could be before, could be after. 15 I don't recall. 16 Q And how did you have contact with him? 17 A He was the first person contact with me from the 18 DNC beside Grace Ho. 19 Q Did he call you in and around this time period? 20 A I don't recall. I don't recall. I will put it in 21 contact with me around this time. I don't recall called me 22 or not, but the first time could be in contact to each other 23 around this time. 24 Q And was this in person or by phone? 25 A I only recall it's in person with inside the 48 63 1 birthday party. 2 Q Inside? 3 A Inside. In the party. 4 Q But you had already paid the money at that time. 5 A Yes. Yes. And I know -- Larry, I'm sorry. It's 6 kind of long, long time ago. It could be a phone call 7 exchange and then I know him and inside the party, he will 8 try to introduce different people to me because I know him at 9 the party. Yes. But I do know Ms. Ho because when she came 10 to pick up the check. 11 Q And at that party when you talked with Mr. Mercer, 12 he told you that there are lots of benefits that you can 13 receive by donating money to the Democratic National 14 Committee? 15 A Not really that much. At that time, I don't even 16 know I was vice chairman for that event -- co-chairman, not 17 vice-chairman, co-chairman, until campaign finance broke I 18 find it out that I was co-chair of that event. And I don't 19 even know whether that amount of money I donated I should 20 have a personal picture taken with the President in a private 21 reception. I don't even know that. 22 Q Now, Ms. Ho, what did you discuss with her when she 23 called you? 24 A I'm sorry -- 25 Q Ms. Ho. 64 1 A I don't understand this. 2 Q Well, when she called you at the Doubletree, she 3 said I want to come over and pick up the checks? 4 A Yes. 5 Q She said that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And she told you the amount? 8 A Yes. I think at that time, everybody know how much 9 amount is it. 10 Q Did she discuss anything else with you? 11 A I don't remember anything else. She just come 12 late, very late at night, and pick up the check. 13 Q Now, when you were at the White House and you saw 14 her there, what did you discuss with her? 15 A Larry, I was so busy taking picture for everybody, 16 I really don't talk too much with anyone else. 17 Q The other woman whose name you can't remember is 18 Doris Matsui, correct? 19 A No. No. It's a white lady. It's a white lady. 20 Around 40, 50 years old. 21 Q Does the name Amy Zistook ring a bell? Does that 22 refresh your memory? 23 A Larry, anybody in the FBI and the Department of 24 Justice knows that I was very poor on American name, not only 25 today, okay? I was really poor on American name. But if you 65 1 show me the picture, maybe I can remember. 2 Q Did you have any conversations directly with Mr. 3 Huang in the White House? 4 A At that meeting, handshake, no. Not really. 5 Q Does Mr. Huang speak Mandarin as his first 6 language -- 7 A I believe so. 8 Q -- or Cantonese? 9 A Mandarin. 10 Q Did you have any conversations with Melinda Yee? 11 A At this trip? At this meeting? I believe we have 12 exchanged business card. Period. And then I was busy taking 13 picture again. 14 Q Did Ms. Yee say why she wanted to exchange the 15 business cards? 16 A No. No. Just a very business way to exchange 17 business cards. 18 Q She did tell you she worked at the Department of 19 Commerce, though? 20 A Yes. At that time, yes. 21 Q And she told you what she did there? 22 A No. Not that trip. Not at that meeting. 23 Q Did she tell you that she helped arrange for trade 24 missions? 25 A Not at that meeting. 66 1 Q That was later. 2 A Correct. 3 Q And did you have any conversations with Reta Lewis 4 at that meeting? 5 A Thank you for the breakfast you prepared for us, 6 shall I pay for it or anybody should pay for it. And she say 7 I will take care of it. Period. 8 Q She said she was going to take care of the 9 breakfast? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You understood that was part of the $2000, right? 12 A No, I do not understand at that time. That tell 13 you how innocent I am. 14 Q Okay. Did anyone come in and meet with 15 you other than these people to discuss the issue of the 16 passport? 17 A No, that was the people. 18 Q Did the President come? 19 A No. 20 Q The Vice President? 21 A No one else. 22 Q Mrs. Clinton? 23 A No one else. 24 Q Maggie Williams? 25 A No one else. 67 1 Q But I take it someone said to you when you were 2 inside the White House, oh, we knew of you because of Little 3 Rock and Maggie Williams. 4 A If you ask me the question, is that meeting anyone 5 else besides this group and this White House official, that's 6 it. And then no one else come along. 7 Q Did anyone say to you during that meeting, 8 Mr. Chung, you and some of your friends are being targeted as 9 part of some outreach program? 10 A I do not know at that time, but later on, I did 11 begin to understand we been targeted. 12 Q What did you begin to understand later on? 13 A With all the campaign finance scandal and the 14 experience of Doris Matsui -- 15 Q Doris Matsui? 16 A Yes. And also with the people who I know in the 17 DNC, I begin to understand. 18 Q You understood that these people knew who you and 19 your friends were and wanted to get as much money out of you 20 as possible. 21 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: The best way I can respond to this 24 question is they are targeting to our group for political 25 contribution. 68 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did anyone ever tell you that you are being 3 targeted? 4 A At that meeting? No. 5 Q Later? 6 A No. Later, more later, the end of -- between the 7 end of '94 to '95. 8 Q Who told you that? 9 A I told myself and I begin to realize. 10 Q Did anyone ever actually say, Johnny, you and 11 others, you are being targeted for campaign contributions? I 12 take it someone must have said that. 13 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. No 14 foundation. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I think that after that 17 contribution, I received the letter, until -- I had received 18 the fundraising invitation all the way until I told you seven 19 day or ten days ago. Never stopped. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And you're still be targeted? That's your 22 impression? 23 A I already tell everybody day before yesterday I'm 24 broke, don't send me anything to me. I am broke. 25 Q Who did you tell you were broke a few days ago? 69 1 A Two days ago I told it to the Congress in my 2 testimony to the Congress. I say I want to make it to the 3 record, I am broke. 4 Q So you were trying also to communicate with the 5 Democratic National Committee, don't send me any more of this 6 stuff, I'm broke. 7 A So far, they are the group sending to me, but maybe 8 I could say it to the whole world, don't send any invitation 9 to me regarding fundraising, I am broke. I am worse than 10 broke. 11 Q And the reason you say that is because you felt 12 like you were still being targeted, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Now, after that meeting in the White House, what, 15 if anything happened leading up to your attendance at the 16 President's 48th birthday party? 17 A I'm sorry, I do not understand. 18 Q I'm sorry. I said that like a lawyer. I'll try to 19 say it like a real person. What happened after you met at 20 the White House up to the time that you went to the 21 President's birthday party? 22 Did someone else contact you and say you need to 23 make another contribution to go to the birthday party? 24 A I do not remember but I do remember the whole group 25 were talking about it, if we do not put a contribution in we 70 1 cannot get the meeting in the morning. I do not remember who 2 told me that, but we do discuss about that. 3 Q Was it the president of the Taiwanese-American 4 Association who said that? 5 A No. We all have some kind of conversation 6 together. Yes. We can figure it out. You have to 7 understand, Larry, I was not really involved with the 8 politics before this. 9 Q Who was the president, what was his name? Of the 10 Taiwanese-American Association. 11 A Mr. Hong, I believe. 12 Q How is that spelled? H-o-n-g? 13 A H-o-n-g or H-u-o-n-g, I don't -- I'm sorry, I don't 14 spell good. 15 Q Where does he live? 16 A I think in southern California. 17 Q Torrance? That area? 18 A Yes, that area. Could be. 19 Q Do you know who he -- 20 A Not Torrance, I mean on the rich area. 21 Q What area? 22 A On a much more richer area. 23 Q A richer area. 24 A Yes. 25 Q San Marino? 71 1 A No, PV, we call it. Palos Verdes. 2 Q Palos Verdes? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you remember what company he's associated with? 5 A If you need it, I can give it to you, but I don't 6 have -- 7 Q Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. 8 A Would you make a list? It's difficult for me to 9 write down all of these. 10 Q Sure. 11 A Very happy to provide to you. 12 Q Thank you. Did there come a point in time after 13 the meeting in the White House where you wrote another check 14 to go to the President's birthday party? 15 A Beside this one? 16 Q Yes. 17 A No. No. That was picking up at the hotel. 18 Q Ms. Ho? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. So the $10,000 check that we just identified 21 got you into this White House meeting on Taiwanese origins on 22 passports and it was intended to get you into the President's 23 birthday party, too? 24 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 25 Argumentative. 72 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Rephrase the question, if you 2 would, Mr. Klayman. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You understood that the $10,000 check would get you 5 into the White House for this meeting about passports and it 6 would also get you into the President's birthday party. 7 MR. SUN: Same objection. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: I can say that $10,000 give us two 10 things, to go into the White House meeting and also go to the 11 48th birthday party. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q And you were told that by Ms. Ho? 14 MR. SUN: Objection. Asked and answered. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: I cannot recall. Somebody told me, 17 but I cannot recall. I cannot recall. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Was it Mr. Mercer? 20 A I have the impression I know but I don't remember 21 who told me. I have an impression I know. 22 Q Okay. Who's the impression? We won't hold you to 23 it. Who do you think it was? 24 A One of the three, David Mercer, Reta Lewis and 25 Grace Ho. 73 1 Q Around this time period, had you ever met or had 2 contact with a person named Ari Swiller? 3 A Not yet. 4 Q That's later. 5 A Yes. 6 Q And Ari Swiller was the fundraiser at the 7 Democratic National Committee, correct? 8 A I get to know him later on through Richard 9 Sullivan. 10 Q And you later came to understand that he managed 11 the DNC Managing Trustee Program. 12 A I don't. I don't. I still don't, but later on I 13 find out a lot from news accounts. 14 Q Did you ever have any contact in person, in writing 15 or over the phone or whatever with someone by the name of 16 Eric Silden? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q Did that occur in and around this time period? 19 A No. 20 Q That was later, too? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And who did you understand Eric Silden to be? 23 Another fundraiser at the DNC? 24 A No, I take it he is some kind of assistant to the 25 chairman of the DNC. 74 1 Q To Mr. Fowler? 2 A Mr. Fowler. 3 Q Who you later met. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, did any discussions occur between you or 6 anybody that you know of, the Democratic National Committee 7 or the White House, leading up to the time that you went to 8 the President's 48th birthday party? 9 A I'm sorry, say that again? Sorry. 10 Q From the point that you had the meeting in the 11 White House and going to the birthday party, were there any 12 discussions between you or any of your friends with people 13 from the White House or the Democratic National Committee? 14 A As I said to you, there's Grace Ho who represent 15 DNC. That's all I know. 16 Q Were you sent materials about the President's 48th 17 birthday party? 18 A I think they give it to us the day they come pick 19 up the check, in the night. Some information that we 20 received. I don't remember. I did remember we received 21 something. 22 Q Have you ever met or had contact with a Vida 23 Benavides? 24 A Later on, yes. At the DNC basement, the office in 25 the basement. 75 1 Q Was that before or after the birthday party? 2 A I don't remember, Larry. Could be after. 3 Q And what was the occasion of your going to the DNC 4 basement? 5 A Grace Ho introduced me to her, say that she is the 6 boss to her. Grace Ho's superior. 7 Q And did Ms. Benavides say anything to you about the 8 benefits of donating to the Democratic National Committee? 9 A She could, but I don't remember what she said to 10 me. She did give me some kind of -- some kind of brochure or 11 documentation and mention about she is the one in charge of 12 Asian-American group at DNC. That's all I can remember. 13 Q The document that she gave you showed you what kind 14 of benefits you could get? 15 A I don't remember. I don't remember. If you show 16 me, maybe it will refresh my memory. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 18 reporter to mark as Exhibit 5. 19 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 5 20 was marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I'm show you Exhibit 5, Mr. Chung. The first 23 page is Business Leadership Forum and the second page is 24 DNC Business Leadership Forum Events and Membership 25 Requirements. 76 1 Is this the document that Ms. Benavides provided to 2 you? 3 A Doesn't ring a bell. Doesn't ring a bell. But I 4 see such kind of documentation later on with the Business 5 Leadership Forum. Later on, I would say '95, I believe -- 6 no, '94. 7 Q In '94? 8 A I think I got this kind of Business Leadership 9 Forum information in '95. 10 Q And who sent it to you? 11 A I believe Richard Sullivan. 12 Q Did you ever talk to him about what was listed in 13 the documentation, Mr. Sullivan? 14 A No. No. The first time I know is late 1994 -- I'm 15 sorry, I want to be correct. I got some memory back. Make 16 the statement correct. 17 When the Haomen Beer Company is here during the 18 Christmas period of 1994, after that August presidential 19 birthday, 48 years of birthday, I came to know Richard 20 Sullivan and through him David Mercer. And later on, I 21 call -- later on, they send me invitation to go to the First 22 Lady birthday in Los Angeles and I was there and the later on 23 again I was in Washington, D.C. for 1994 Christmas party and 24 I tried to arrange those beer company to go meet with the 25 President and Vice President. I call it wish list. 77 1 And then Richard Sullivan mentioned to me about 2 Business Leadership Forum and then if you can donate for 3 $40,000 we have a meeting and you guys can meet with the Vice 4 President at that time. 5 As I said it to the FBI and the Department of 6 Justice, those Haomen Beer Company has really created a whole 7 entire lobby for the way of beer and try to give everybody 8 free beer, to drink their beer and take a lot of pictures, 9 okay? And that was the first time I know of Business 10 Leadership Forum. 11 Q When you discussed the benefits of the Business 12 Leadership Forum, Mr. Sullivan mentioned that one of the 13 benefits is to go on a trade mission? 14 A No. No. I don't even know at that time anything. 15 That was late. No. That was -- that was 1994, Christmas 16 period. 17 Q That's when you found out you could go on a trade 18 mission. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: No. It's not. The trade mission is 25 different issue. 78 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Excuse me? 3 A This is different issue, different timing. And 4 different people who introduced me about trade mission. Not 5 then. 6 Q Did that introduce occur at the President's 7 birthday party. 8 A No. 9 MR. SUN: To who? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: To Mr. Chung. 11 MR. SUN: Introduction to Mr. Sullivan? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. 13 MR. SUN: I'm asking for a clarification. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, that's a fair question. Why 15 don't you go back and not use the word introduction in that 16 question so we're clear. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q When did you first learn that you could get to go 19 on a trade mission? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Your Honor, can the 21 witness step out, please? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, this is -- I don't want 23 to break the flow. 24 MS. BRASWELL: I'd like to -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a simple question. 79 1 MS. BRASWELL: It's an objection that it's vague. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. 3 Step out for a second, Mr. Chung. 4 (The witness was excused.) 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Ms. Braswell? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, we've had this objection 7 before as to what trade mission we're talking about, whether 8 we're talking about a trade mission sponsored by the 9 Democratic National Committee or sponsored by the Department 10 of Commerce. It is unfair to this witness for Mr. Klayman to 11 use term trade mission without saying who it was sponsored 12 by. 13 This Court has previously held that Mr. Klayman has 14 to say what kind of trade mission he's talking about. And 15 it's unfair to this witness and he's trying to get testimony 16 that he can twist later. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Those kinds of accusations are 18 unnecessary, Your Honor, and let me respond to this. I'll be 19 happy to ask the follow-up question, I have no difficulty 20 with that. Secondly, I find it -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: At least a follow-up question as 22 to the Department of Commerce. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: As an observation here, that the 24 Department of Justice wouldn't want to get the information 25 out. They're here on a FOIA case and I get the impression 80 1 they're defending the Commerce Department on the actual 2 allegation, which is not my understanding of why they're 3 here. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm trying to get 5 accurate testimony. That's why I'm here. 6 MR. SUN: Your Honor, if I might for the record and 7 also to assist Mr. Klayman and the Court to try to expedite 8 these proceedings, Mr. Chung will testify here today about 9 (a) what we believe to be some kind of trade mission 10 sponsored by the Department of Commerce and the documents 11 produced today reflect a connection between a trip made to 12 China in August or so of 1994 that appeared by the documents 13 to be connected to the Department of Commerce and he can 14 provide testimony relevant to that, I believe, as I 15 understood the subpoena. 16 And I have allowed or not objected vociferously as 17 to the questions regarding Ms. Lewis and all that because I 18 also saw the names of Mr. Huang and Ms. Yee on the subpoena 19 and because they were also involved in that meeting at the 20 White House I felt that was all within the scope of the 21 subpoena. 22 Beyond this one trade mission that is listed in the 23 subpoena, I don't believe Mr. Chung has anything pertinent to 24 offer based upon my review of the motion and the appendix to 25 the subpoena and I want to state that for the record. 81 1 Beyond that, he is prepared to answer any questions 2 about Mr. Huang, Mr. Trie, Ms. Yee, Ms. Moss, the others that 3 are listed in the subpoena, but I would state for the record 4 it would be our position that that's the only relevant 5 testimony he might have that's covered by what appears to be 6 the motion. 7 If it's to go beyond that, I would ask for some 8 kind of demonstration by Mr. Klayman as to the relevance of 9 these other matters. Mr. Chung has been debriefed thoroughly 10 by the Department of Justice, he has been interviewed by the 11 majority and minority staff of the congressional committees 12 on a lot of these matters, a lot of this is now public. 13 And to the extent that Mr. Klayman needs to get 14 certain things under oath, we don't have a problem with it, 15 as long as it's relevant to the scope of this litigation, 16 which I understand just relates to the Department of Commerce 17 to which my client, as he will testify if he is asked, had 18 very limited contact with. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But you're going to follow 20 up by linking it to the trade mission you're talking about. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Sure. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The one sponsored by the 23 Department of Commerce. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 82 1 Come in, Mr. Chung. 2 (The witness returned.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Chung, when we broke, I was asking a simple 5 question, when did the issue of going on trade missions first 6 come up? 7 A With Jude Kearney. 8 Q And did that occur at the President's birthday? 9 A No. 10 Q When did it -- you understood when it came up 11 Mr. Kearney was working for the Commerce Department, correct? 12 A I visit him at his office. Yes. 13 Q Was that before the President's birthday party? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, objection. There's been 15 no follow up by Mr. Klayman that he was supposed to make 16 regarding a clarification. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think he did. He mentioned it 18 was Jude Kearney, who we know was at the Department of 19 Commerce. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Yes. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Not in relation to the issue. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm getting to it, Your Honor. 23 I will be happy to -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Objection overruled. Please get 25 to it. 83 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Thanks. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you meet with Mr. Kearney before or after the 4 President's birthday party? 5 A Let me see the date. Can I see the date? That 6 will refresh my memory. 7 Q Let me show you what has been marked as Chung 8 Exhibit 2. Just tell me what document you're referring to. 9 A I'm looking at this date, August 27th, and also my 10 passport is stamped. I remember that. I met with Mr. 11 Kearney somewhere around early August. 12 Q So we're talking about the President's birthday 13 party, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And when you discussed with Mr. Kearney going on a 16 trade mission, you understood it to be -- he told you it was 17 Commerce Department trade mission? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Now -- 20 A Can I quote what he said? 21 Q Yes. Sure. 22 A I am advance team to go to China, you are Chinese, 23 shame on you, you never make a trip to China, go, take a 24 look. And that was very first trip for me to go to China. 25 Q And when you talked to Mr. Kearney, you understood 84 1 he was inviting you. 2 A Yes. He invite me to go. 3 Q And how did say I'm inviting you? 4 A I am advance team, I was ready to go to China, 5 would you like to go. I said, well, I've never been to China 6 in my whole entire life, I know nobody there. And then he 7 said, well, why don't you come over, I will set it up. I 8 will make a reservation for your hotel at Great Wall, China, 9 Great Wall Hotel, and then he give me the phone number how I 10 can reach him and I tried to get my visa at the Los Angeles 11 and then later on I call him up and I went to China and he 12 picked me up in the airport. 13 Q You had seen Mr. Kearney before that meeting at the 14 Commerce Department at the President's birthday party, 15 correct? 16 A I don't have a recollection of that. Maybe, but I 17 don't have a recollection. 18 Q Let me turn your attention to Exhibit 4, page 2. 19 This is a chronology prepared by the Government Reform 20 Committee majority staff. 21 MR. SUN: Did you say Exhibit 4, Mr. Klayman? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, it's the composite exhibit. 23 MR. SUN: Page 2? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. At the bottom it says, "At the 25 August 2, 1994 birthday party and fundraiser, Chung was 85 1 introduced to Jude Kearney, who told him that then-Commerce 2 Secretary Ron Brown was organizing a business delegation to 3 China for later in the month. Kearney chided Chung for never 4 having visited China and encouraged him to go as an 5 ex-officio member of the delegation. Chung visited China, 6 where he had his picture taken with Ron Brown. During his 7 visit to China, Chung was taken to a restaurant by Kearney 8 where he saw Wang Mei Trie, Charlie Trie's wife, and Jim 9 Dailey, the mayor Little Rock, Arkansas. Chung later saw Yah 10 Lin 'Charlie' Trie at a hotel. 11 "Commerce Department documents indicate that Ron 12 Brown led a delegation to China during August 27-September 3, 13 1994. See Exhibit 9. A picture of Secretary Brown and Chung 14 in addition to another Commerce Department confirms Chung's 15 attendance on the trip. See Exhibits 10 and 11. The 16 document states that 'The Secretary [Ron Brown] knows Mr. 17 Chung as we was on the trip to China with him last year.' A 18 Commerce Department memorandum discussed Charlie Trie's plans 19 to host a brief reception for the delegation in Beijing. See 20 Exhibit 12. Chung's passport indicates that his first visa 21 for entry into China was issued in August 1994. See Exhibit 22 13." 23 Is that statement correct? 24 A Some of them I don't know on this page number 3, a 25 private reception or anything, I never been there. And some 86 1 of them over here, Chung was introduced to Jude Kearney. 2 When I was in that party, I don't have a recollection. Could 3 be. I remember introduced to me to Jude Kearney was Reta 4 Lewis. She give me the phone number, there is someone you 5 should talk about. And then I do call Jude Kearney. I went 6 to his office at the Commerce Department. That's the best 7 recollection I can give to you. 8 In the party did I meet with him personally? I 9 don't remember. Larry, you have to know this is my first 10 event to the political party. Very excited and I don't pay 11 too much attention. 12 Q You had your camera there, too. 13 A Oh, yeah. You betcha. For my family. 14 Q When you met with Mr. Kearney, well, let me back 15 up. Ms. Reta Lewis was at the President's birthday party, 16 right? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q So is it possible that she introduced you to 19 Mr. Kearney at the birthday party? 20 A Possible, but I don't have any recollection. She 21 introduced me to a lot of people which is a stranger face to 22 me except the President and First Lady. 23 Q Now, when you did have a discussion with 24 Mr. Kearney when he invited you on the China Commerce 25 Department -- 87 1 A That was at his office. 2 Q At his office. Okay. Mr. Kearney did make 3 reference to the fact that he knew that you were at the 4 President's birthday party. 5 A Okay. 6 Q Is that correct? That's correct, isn't it? 7 A I don't have a recollection about it. I did 8 remember I met with a lot of African-American officials, like 9 the mayor of New York, ex-mayor of New York. 10 Q Mayor Dinkins? 11 A Yes. And other people. 12 Q At the Commerce Department? 13 A No, no, no, no. At the -- 14 Q At the birthday party? 15 A Forty-eighth birthday. So, again, let me repeat to 16 you, at that time, I did not familiar with the American 17 politicians' face. I don't know who was who. 18 Q Well, my question was when you did talk to Mr. 19 Kearney, Mr. Kearney did tell you that he knew that you had 20 contributed money to the Democratic National Committee. 21 A That's correct. 22 Q And Mr. Kearney said to you that I'm a political 23 appointee and I can get you invited on the trip, correct? 24 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the evidence. 25 No foundation. 88 1 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. 2 MR. SUN: Argumentative. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Rephrase that question, 4 Mr. Klayman. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there is, Your Honor, there's a 6 document in this case, that this is a phrase that Mr. Kearney 7 has used. 8 MS. BRASWELL: But not the way he used it, 9 Your Honor. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Can I see the document, 11 Mr. Klayman? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: We've used it in other depositions. 13 But I should be able to ask a leading question. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You can, but I want to see the 15 document. 16 MR. SUN: My only request, Your Honor, is that 17 Mr. Klayman lay a foundation before he asks a question like 18 that. 19 (Pause.) 20 MR. SUN: Your Honor, may I have a moment with my 21 client? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Of course. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that the testimony not be 24 discussed, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please don't discuss the 89 1 testimony. You can step into the courtroom if you would 2 like. 3 (The witness was excused.) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record 5 at 9:45. 6 (A brief recess was taken.) 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video record at 8 9:55. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: The document to which we refer, 10 Your Honor, is Exhibit 6 to Mr. Kearney's deposition. I have 11 asked our young lawyer, Jason Aldrich, to go back and get 12 those exhibits, but the language is listed on page 277 of 13 Kearney's deposition where I read it into the records and 14 it's pages 11 to 16 on page 277. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. And this is referring 16 to what? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: This is referring to a statement that 18 Mr. Kearney had made to someone similarly situated, without 19 being too explicit here. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Read back the 21 question, will you, Madam Reporter? 22 (The court reporter read back the record.) 23 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I think my objection was 24 well taken. It is not the same thing as what we have just 25 read. 90 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that's an inappropriate 2 way of putting something in front of Mr. Chung. 3 MS. BRASWELL: I've said nothing substantive. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll see when it's read -- I don't 5 think it's nothing to make that kind of statement. I'm just 6 using it as a guidepost. That's all I'm doing. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Overruled. 8 Answer that question if you can. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Mr. Chung, Mr. Kearney said something to you to the 11 effect that since I, Mr. Kearney, am a political appointee, 12 we choose people who are politically connected for the trade 13 trips. 14 MR. SUN: Again, objection. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MR. SUN: Lack of foundation. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q So he didn't use that phrase? 23 A No. 24 Q Did he tell you that he was a political appointee? 25 A I do not understand political appointee or not 91 1 political appointee as of that time. The only thing I know 2 is that he is government official. 3 Q He did tell you that businessmen were going on 4 these Commerce Department trade trips. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And that going on the trade trips could help 7 businesses do more business. 8 A That's correct. 9 Q And that you as a Chinese should certainly go to 10 China. 11 A He didn't use that. He used the joke I just told 12 you. 13 Q Right. Right. If ever I use a phrase which is not 14 accurate, you can correct. 15 A Okay. Well -- 16 Q Like you, we just want to get the truth. 17 A Okay. 18 Q No trick questions. 19 A No. 20 Q And during that discussion you had in his office, 21 he told you that he could actually make some contacts for you 22 in China, correct? 23 A He can arrange the reservation, he can show me 24 around, and then don't worry, I've been there so many times, 25 he said. I'll pick you up in the airport, join me. 92 1 Q And it was your understanding that the reason that 2 Mr. Kearney was offering to do this for you was because Ms. 3 Lewis had contacted him. 4 MR. SUN: Objection. No foundation. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: My recollection is he will do that 7 because Reta Lewis introduced me to him. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q And you understood at the time that you were 10 getting this kind of attention because you had made a 11 contribution to the Democratic Party. 12 A It helped. It helped. That's the only thing I can 13 say, I helped. And I tried continue to select different kind 14 of business, promote my fax broadcasting service to the 15 different department in the United States of America. And 16 that was one of -- Department of Commerce, yes, I wanted to 17 get business there. 18 Q It was not your understanding that Mr. Kearney 19 would pick anybody up at the airport in Beijing. 20 MR. SUN: Objection. That's argumentative. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. You can respond. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: If I don't meet him in the airport -- 24 I'm sorry. In his office? I don't think so. He will pick 25 up anybody in the Beijing airport. 93 1 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I object to the line of 2 questioning to the extent that I believe it's appropriate for 3 Mr. Klayman to ask what did Mr. Kearney say to him, what did 4 Mr. Chung say to Mr. Kearney and it probably is appropriate 5 at times if Mr. Klayman want's to ask Mr. Chung impressions 6 of conversations, but, you know, I do believe that the 7 questioning should stay within those limits -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think it has. 9 Go ahead. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Mr. Kearney said to you during that meeting that in 12 fact Mr. Kearney had contacts with the Clinton 13 administration, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that in fact his family was from Arkansas, 16 correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And that in fact members of his family worked for 19 the Clinton administration. 20 A That didn't come up to the conversation. 21 Q Did he ever tell you that his sister works in the 22 White House? 23 A I don't remember, but he did tell me that he is 24 from a big family. Big family. 25 Q Big Arkansas family. 94 1 A Yes. Big Arkansas family. 2 Q A big prominent Arkansas family. Should I use the 3 word famous? Is that better? 4 A No, he didn't use that word. After he retired from 5 government business, he went into business and he told me 6 that he a Harvard University graduate, on the wall I see 7 that. He worked very hard for that. 8 Q And that his family knew the Clintons. 9 A That didn't come up. 10 Q That came over later? 11 A No. 12 Q Now, during that meeting that you had Mr. Kearney 13 in his office, he showed you some documents? 14 A He could be. He could be not. I don't remember. 15 I tried to show him my document, fax broadcasting service. 16 My business, I tried to promote my business. If you could 17 show me something, I don't remember, but I do remember I 18 showed it to him. 19 Q Did you make it clear to him that the fax broadcast 20 business was part of the telecommunications industry? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q And Mr. Kearney said to you that's one of the 23 industry sectors that we're trying to promote at the Commerce 24 Department in terms of doing business in China? 25 A I don't remember. 95 1 Q You yourself are aware that that is a sector 2 in China that the Chinese are interested in developing? 3 You came to learn that on your trips? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And they give that a high priority. The Chinese 6 give that a high priority. 7 A Until almost the second -- two days before our 8 departure, I begin to realize I was so important that I have 9 such kind of business. I also want to tell you that was very 10 first trip for me to go to China. I am dying. I got flu, 11 diarrhea, I got blood in my nose. I did not really pay too 12 much attention with my business trip at all. It was like 13 living in hell. 14 Q What is it that you learned a couple of days before 15 you went to China? 16 A After I have the breakfast with the American 17 businessmen -- let me think. The breakfast for the late 18 Secretary Ron Brown to address to American businessmen in 19 Beijing, anyone could participated, and also talk about the 20 very last meeting for this delegation to say thank you to 21 the Chinese businessmen and government and American 22 government provide the dinners and all the conversation come 23 across, all the people talk about it, and the table where 24 there were Chinese people, businessmen, I begin to know 25 telecommunication is such important for this trip. But I 96 1 cannot pay too much attention to it, because I really wanted 2 to come home. I was really sick. 3 Q Were these meetings you're talking about in China? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Were there any discussions before you went to China 6 about what the Chinese were interested in? 7 A No. No. I don't remember. 8 Q You came to learn that once you were in China. 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Did Mr. Kearney give you brochures about the trip 11 to China? 12 A Yes. That's how I get this one. 13 Q He gave it to you during the meeting? 14 A I don't recall. 15 MR. SUN: You mean the meeting at the Commerce 16 Department? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: Could be. Could be. I don't recall. 19 Could be in the meeting or at Beijing. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did he give you the itinerary of the events in 22 China when you met at the Commerce Department? 23 A I don't recall, but I do have itinerary in China. 24 In China. Yes. But I don't remember did he give it to me in 25 the office or not. I don't remember. 97 1 Q Did he tell you who else was -- 2 A I'm sorry. I do have some information to take to 3 the Chinese general consulate in Los Angeles, in order to 4 show to them what I am going to do, why I am going to China, 5 in order to get a visa. So definitely some documentation to 6 show it to them, I am going to China for this trip. 7 Q Who gave you that documentation during your 8 meeting? 9 A Some documentation, I can prove it to the consular 10 general's office of China in Los Angeles in order to get a 11 visa. I do not remember what documentation look like now. 12 Q Do you still have that documentation? 13 A I doubt it. I maybe just give it to them, they 14 took it and I got my visa. 15 Q Did he suggest how you could travel to China during 16 that meeting or afterwards? 17 A Frame your question one more time. 18 Q Did Mr. Kearney tell you how you could get to 19 China? Did he give you any advice? 20 A Well, he said, well, take any flight to go to 21 Beijing, I'll pick you up in the airport. Call me before 22 you're coming and make sure your flight number and your time 23 to arrive in Beijing. And he did pick me up in the airport. 24 Q Did Mr. Kearney ever say to you we, the Commerce 25 Department, are going to submit a statement of expenses for 98 1 helping you in China? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you get any such statement later? 4 A No. 5 Q So you weren't charged for anything by the Commerce 6 Department for that trip to China? 7 A No. Nothing. I paid my own way to go. 8 Q Now, you understood from talking to Mr. Kearney 9 that once you were in China he was going to set some meetings 10 up for you, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q And that you would be invited to go to some of the 13 functions on that trip. 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And did he tell you during that meeting which 16 functions? 17 A One or two, could be three, and then later on with 18 some phone call, I find out that Melinda Yee was also in this 19 trip and find out what room number is and then I call her up. 20 Jude Kearney and Melinda Yee were both of them helping me to 21 go to two event, as I told you. 22 Q And which two events were they? 23 A The first one is the -- both of them occurred at 24 the Great Wall, China Great Wall Hotel in Beijing. The first 25 one is a breakfast meeting for late Secretary Ron Brown to 99 1 address to American businessmen, which I believe any American 2 businessman in Beijing you can attend. 3 And the second one, which is the last one I was 4 attend, the Secretary Brown to say thank you to Chinese 5 government and Chinese businessmen accompanied by all 6 American businessmen. Huge, huge room. And that was the 7 two. 8 Q And when you were in China, you got some materials 9 about what was going on from Mr. Kearney or Ms. Yee or 10 others? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q What materials did you get? 13 A That's what I tried to explain to you. Something 14 like this on the cover and then brochure or something. 15 Q Right. We're talking about the brochure, 16 Presidential Business Development Mission to Beijing, 17 Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong? 18 A Yes. Something like that one. That's why I picked 19 up a copy of it to show it to you. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 21 reporter to mark as the next exhibit -- 22 MS. BRASWELL: 6. 23 MR. SUN: I believe we're up to 7, aren't we? 24 MS. BRASWELL: This one was not made an exhibit. 25 MR. SUN: Okay. 100 1 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 6 2 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q And my question is is that the material that you 5 were given in Beijing, in China? 6 A I remember this page, Larry, and the rest of them 7 I don't remember. 8 Q You don't think they would have given you the top 9 page without giving you anything else. 10 A They won't. 11 Q So you think you got the whole thing. 12 A Yes. I think I got the whole page, but -- if it's 13 all one, then I got it. I only remember this page. 14 Q Is that China Great Wall Hotel, is that the one 15 right next to Tiananmen Square? 16 A Not too far away. I'll put it that way. 17 Q A block or two? As we Americans say. 18 A From here to the White House. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Distance from here to the White House. Same 21 street. 22 Q Now, let's back up a little bit. Actually, let me 23 ask a few more questions here and then we'll return to this. 24 I'm going to try to keep this chronological. 25 A Okay. 101 1 Q Make it easier for you to follow. 2 A Thank you. 3 Q When you had these two meetings in China, in 4 Beijing, that you went to, Ms. Yee was there? 5 A I only remember one. The other one I don't 6 remember, but both of then Jude Kearney was there. 7 Q And did you talk to Mr. Kearney when you were 8 there? 9 A We actually -- at one point, we were sitting for 10 ten minutes together to listen to late Secretary Ron Brown's 11 speech. 12 Q And what did Mr. Kearney say to you at these 13 meetings? 14 A How you feel. 15 Q He said something maybe to the effect I hope we're 16 being helpful? 17 A I remember how you feel is two issue. One is how 18 do I feel about my health because I told you I am really sick 19 and how you feel about this whole event. I said great. Both 20 of them are great. 21 I tried to make sure understand I was sick but my 22 spirit still there as American businessman trying to do 23 something for my own business and that was the conversation. 24 Q Well, let's back up now. We're still leading up to 25 the President's birthday party. 102 1 A Okay. 2 Q And what contact, if any, did you have that you 3 haven't already testified about between the time you were in 4 the White House where you met Mr. Huang and Ms. Yee for the 5 first time -- 6 A That's correct. 7 Q -- and going to the President's birthday party with 8 any Democrat fundraisers? 9 MR. SUN: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: It couldn't be more precise, but I 12 could say it again. 13 THE WITNESS: Can you say it again? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: Say it again. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q The question is simple. From the time you went to 18 the White House the first time to the time that you went to 19 the President's birthday party -- 20 A Are we talking about the Taiwanese-American 21 passport issue? 22 Q Right. We're going back in time now. 23 A Okay. 24 Q Because we're going to keep it chronological. 25 A Okay. 103 1 Q Between the time you went to the White House to the 2 time you went to the President's birthday party, did you have 3 any additional contacts that we haven't talked about yet with 4 people from the Democratic National Committee? 5 A I don't recall any. I don't recall any, but could 6 be at that meeting or one day before, the same day, the same 7 night when Grace Ho come pick up the check, we did ask her or 8 someone else where is the location because that was in 9 Maryland, in a very tricky country road, for the people from 10 Los Angeles, not easy to understand that kind of tricky 11 country road, and I tried to ask the location. Maybe that 12 conversation occurred. 13 Q Did you have any contact during that interim period 14 with Reta Lewis? 15 A I do, yes. 16 Q And how did that contact occur? 17 A I think it is talking about -- if I hear the 18 question right -- 19 Q Did you talk to her during that interim period 20 between the passport meeting and the President's birthday 21 party? 22 A Yes, we did talk about it. As I told you, could be 23 she or Grace Ho, either one of them, who told us how to get 24 there. That's the only conversation I can remember. 25 Q Any contact with David Mercer? 104 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q Ari Swiller? 3 A No. 4 Q Eric Silden? 5 A No. Definitely at this time. 6 Q Any contact with anyone else at the White House 7 besides Ms. Lewis? 8 A No. 9 Q Had you ever met an Alexis Herman? 10 A No. Not at that time. No. 11 Q Later? She's African-American. 12 A I hardly know her. I know who she is, but I hardly 13 know her. 14 Q When did you meet her? 15 A I have to state my recollection is I hardly know 16 her. I really don't know her too much or any connection with 17 her. 18 Q Did you ever meet a Harold Ickes? Somebody by the 19 name of Harold Ickes? 20 A No. No. Can I say something? 21 Q Sure. 22 A I think I know people at the political affair 23 during 1994 and 1995 and that was a gentleman who I know -- 24 if you check out those name, who is a political affair people 25 at that office, I know that that's it. 105 1 Q Did anything else happen between the time you went 2 to the White House for the passport matter and the time you 3 went to the President's birthday party? 4 A No. 5 Q So you went to the President's birthday party. Who 6 went with you? 7 A My family, the whole entire group. 8 Q You, your wife -- 9 A My wife, me, my daughters, eldest daughters, my 10 parents and then Mr. Simon Wu and Simon Wu's wife and the 11 president of Taiwanese-American Association and the wife. 12 Q I apologize if you already told me who Simon Wu is. 13 A He's a newspaper man. 14 Q A newspaper man. Do you know what newspaper he 15 works for? 16 A Pacific -- the best way I can translate it in 17 Chinese way, Pacific Newspaper. It's called Pacific 18 Newspaper. 19 Q And when you got to the President's birthday party, 20 did anybody greet you? 21 A DNC people? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Reta Lewis. David Mercer I come to remember he was 24 talking to me, introduced different people to us. Very 25 famous poetry African-American woman. 106 1 Q A poet? 2 A The poet that -- I don't remember -- 3 Q You said you met a lot of African-American people 4 at that event. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Was that Maya Angelou? 7 A Maya Angelou. Yes. 8 Q A-n-g-e-l-o-u. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Anyone else? Is that possibly where you met Alexis 11 Herman? 12 A Possible, but I also met -- yes. I also met with 13 late Secretary Ron Brown. 14 Q Who introduced you to Ron Brown? 15 A David Mercer, could be. Yes. Primarily was David 16 Mercer was taking care of our group. 17 Q And you had a conversation with Secretary Brown? 18 A Picture taken. Not really conversation. Photo op. 19 Q Did he ever say to you you ought to meet Charlie 20 Trie? 21 A No. 22 Q Secretary Brown at any time. 23 A No. I did see Charlie Trie at that event. The 24 only reason why I pay attention to him, because we are the 25 only Asian-American group and there is another Asian-American 107 1 group there. I did pay attention and take a look and I don't 2 know who that was, who he was. 3 Q Did you know Charlie Trie before then? 4 A No. 5 Q Had you heard of him? 6 A No. I only heard from -- I only know his name from 7 Jude Kearney when I was in China and he said -- no, I'm 8 sorry. Back up. In August, in August at Commerce 9 Department, when we had that conversation, he said do you 10 know Charlie Trie and I said how do you spell the last name, 11 Trie? And he spelled it for me and I said I hardly know who 12 he is. 13 A And who did Mr. Kearney tell you Charlie Trie was? 14 Q He told me that he was a friend of Jude Kearney and 15 a friend of the President and he is also Chinese-American and 16 then he gave me Yah Lin Trie or Charlie Trie, I said doesn't 17 ring a bell. Larry, I was nobody at that time. I'm not too 18 much in political issue, okay? I don't know people's name. 19 Beside, when American talking about Chinese name, it's very 20 difficult to understand. 21 Q But when you went to the party, someone said that's 22 Charlie Trie? 23 A No. No. 24 Q Well, how did you know that you were meeting 25 Charlie Trie? 108 1 A I see another group of Asian-American passing by 2 and by the time I get to China, Jude Kearney did introduce 3 Charlie Trie to me and then I say, oh, okay, I know the face. 4 Like these two lady, if I see their face, I remember their 5 face for my life. 6 Q You remembered when you met him in China that you 7 had seen him at that party. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. I'm going to turn your attention -- 10 lawyers say turn your attention -- look at Exhibit 6 of this 11 Exhibit 4. 12 A Exhibit 4. This one? 13 Q Yes -- no. That one. It's Exhibit 4 to this 14 deposition and it's Exhibit 6 of that. If you go down about 15 a quarter of an inch. It's the White House, the Presidential 16 birthday celebration dinner August 1, 1994. 17 MR. SUN: You said 4? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I can find it. 19 MS. BRASWELL: It's Exhibit 6. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: It's Exhibit 6 of Exhibit 4. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Of Exhibit 4. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q You've seen this document before, haven't you? 24 A Could be, could be not. Could be. Could be not. 25 Because all of this very first fundraiser party for me. 109 1 Somebody pick it up, the check in the hotel, and show us the 2 location to go. If I did see this one, I will remember, but 3 I do not remember I see this one. 4 Q Look at the bottom. Do you see where they list the 5 names of the people that are going to be there at this 6 birthday party? The names of the -- 7 A Doesn't ring a bell. 8 Q -- famous people? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. You did see Ron Brown there. Did you see 11 Henry Cisneros there? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you meet Henry Cisneros? 14 A We were introduced by David Mercer and Reta Lewis. 15 We did meet a lot of people. To be honest with you, I don't 16 know who they are at that time, but later on, I begin to 17 figure it out. We did take a lot of pictures. 18 Q Did you see a Mike Espy? 19 A Yes, I did. We also have a picture taken with him. 20 Q And a Richard Riley? 21 A No. I did not. 22 Q Secretary of Education at the time. 23 A No. 24 Q Federico Pena? 25 A I did not see him at that time. 110 1 Q Carol Browner? 2 A I don't think so. 3 Q Bill Bradley? 4 A Could be. 5 Q Carol Mosley Braun? 6 A No. 7 Q Kweisi Mfume? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q He's African-American, he was a congressman, now 10 head of the NAACP? 11 A I did see the other one who is the NAACP president 12 right now. He used to be a former congressman. 13 Q Right. That's Kweisi Mfume. 14 A Okay. That one I did -- is that the same one we're 15 talking about? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Okay. I did. 18 Q Cardiss Collins? Do you know who that is? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Ron Dellums, another congressman? 21 A No. Is he African-American, too 22 Q Yes. 23 A I've got to show you the pictures. I don't recall. 24 Q Do you have the pictures? 25 A Could be one picture with that. 111 1 Q Did you bring today? 2 A I think I gave it to the FBI, all of them. 3 Q To the FBI? 4 A Yes, to the FBI. 5 Q Could you give us a copy of them? 6 A If I still have a copy. I think your best choice 7 will be the FBI, try to get a copy of it, because I give all 8 my pictures as much as I can to them. 9 Q I take it the FBI didn't let you make copies of 10 some documents that they took? 11 A They did, they did, but not pictures. I 12 voluntarily give it to them and then they promised they will 13 give me back, give all of them back to me. If they don't, I 14 won't get it back. 15 MR. SUN: Is your question does he have pictures? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Of people that he met with. 17 THE WITNESS: I have some pictures. 18 MR. SUN: He has some pictures still. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We would ask him to voluntarily 20 provide them to us. 21 MR. SUN: Voluntarily provide what? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: The pictures. 23 MR. SUN: What pictures? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: The pictures that he took at that 25 birthday party. 112 1 MR. SUN: Okay. I don't know if he has pictures of 2 that, but we'll endeavor to look. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Thank you. 4 MR. SUN: Of the event that you're referring to. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: And tell us if the FBI has them, 6 because then we can get them from the FBI if you don't have 7 them any more. 8 THE WITNESS: Larry, during the last two years, my 9 office has been asked to provide -- I don't know how many 10 subpoena I've been getting, I don't know how many FBI agent 11 have been talking about it, Department of Justice has been 12 talking about it. 13 Documentation, documentation including the tax, 14 including IRS, still California tax, everybody got 15 information from me. I cannot even report my own company tax 16 now because I don't have complete documentation. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever met with any Justice Department 19 lawyers? 20 A Justice Department lawyers? 21 Q Yes. Has anyone ever talked to you? 22 A This time or what? 23 MR. SUN: Ever? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: At any time. 25 THE WITNESS: Someone who -- 113 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Your lawyer obviously has, but have you ever met 3 any Justice Department lawyers? 4 A Just my prosecutor and also another one is the U.S. 5 Attorney office in Los Angeles, Dan O'Brien, too. 6 Q Who worked with the prosecutor. 7 A For the other case. 8 Q The case that you reached an agreement on. 9 A The case that I've been talking about, the people 10 who try to be a messenger, try to harass -- two days ago. 11 Q The ones that threatened you. 12 A Threatened me. Yes. 13 Q During your testimony, you referred to a Mr. Luu 14 who told you that he was connected with the number three at 15 the Justice Department. 16 MR. SUN: Objection. That misstates the testimony. 17 Lack of foundation. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if I've got it wrong -- 19 How did I get it wrong, Mr. Sun? 20 MR. SUN: And, Your Honor, I would interpose an 21 objection that this is well beyond the scope of relevance of 22 this litigation. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 MR. SUN: It goes to a matter related to an ongoing 25 criminal investigation. 114 1 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I would object if it 2 goes to an ongoing criminal investigation, if the answer 3 calls for the release of information that would be subject to 4 the law enforcement privilege. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we didn't get to that and he's 6 already testified to it, it's public -- 7 MS. BRASWELL: I don't know where he's going with 8 his questioning. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking about the public 10 testimony that you gave. Correct me if I'm wrong, that this 11 Mr. Luu told you that there was a lawyer who had connections 12 to the number three at the Justice Department, correct? He 13 recommended that you hire that lawyer in lieu of Mr. Sun, 14 correct? 15 MR. SUN: I'll object as vague and ambiguous and 16 compound, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me see if we can figure it 18 out. Hold on just a second. 19 Mr. Klayman, are you referring to a specific 20 portion of his testimony or statement before the House 21 committee? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you have that? Where are we? 24 MR. SUN: Exhibit 3, I believe, Your Honor. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe Mr. Sun, since he wrote it, can 115 1 find it faster. 2 MR. SUN: I'll object to that characterization, but 3 there is a section towards the end of the document, 4 Your Honor, that begins -- it's not paginated by number, but 5 it's marked Robert Luu and there is a section in that and 6 maybe it would be better for me to just -- it's about one, 7 two, three, four pages back from the back of the document. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I see. Okay. 9 MR. SUN: The top of the page -- the top of the 10 page. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Could I see what you're -- 12 MR. SUN: "I was told the attorney was connected 13 and knew the number three person at DOJ." 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did he tell you who that person was? Did he tell 16 you that name? 17 A Can you ask one more time? 18 Q Did Mr. Luu give you the name of that number three 19 at the Justice Department? 20 A Not Mr. Luu, the attorney. 21 Q The attorney. I take it the name of the attorney 22 was David Brockway? 23 A Yes. That's correct. 24 Q He gave you the name of the number three at the 25 Justice Department? 116 1 A He did, but I don't remember, but if you want it, 2 you can go through the transcript of the hidden camera or the 3 wire tap. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. I'll show you what I'll ask 5 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 6 THE COURT REPORTER: 7. 7 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 7 8 was marked for identification.) 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 11 this is the person whose name was provided to you? Raymond 12 C. Fisher? 13 A Larry, I'm not good in American name. The best 14 way you can find this name, it will be on my undercover 15 operation tape and transcript. The name is there, but I 16 don't remember. 17 Q Okay. Well, let me ask you another question. 18 Does the name Eric Holder ring a bell? 19 A No. No. 20 Q Was it a woman's name? 21 A I cannot -- I cannot tell that's different. The 22 only thing in my mind right there that night I was so 23 shocked, the number three person of the DOJ and the name, and 24 the FBI asked me about that right the operation's over, I did 25 talk to them, I don't know the name. They say okay, it's on 117 1 the tape, don't worry. 2 Q Did Mr. Brockway tell you that he had dealt with 3 this number three before and had problems solved? Something 4 like that? 5 A Not the way he said it to me. 6 Q How did he say it? 7 A Not that way. He said it this way. 8 MR. SUN: Same objection, Your Honor. Beyond the 9 scope. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q How did he say it? 13 A The best recollection I can give to you is there's 14 some friend or some client, customer he used to have, they 15 keep quiet, everybody take care of him, he being sent to the 16 country club jail and then later on he find himself a very 17 comfortable life and everybody will take care of him because 18 he keep quiet. In order to give me the impression of how to 19 keep quiet as Mr. Luu, Robert Luu, suggest. 20 And also he said to me he met with this number 21 three person somewhere in Los Angeles or somewhere and also 22 he mentioned about a judge, he said, oh, this is a tough 23 judge, I know him, but he is a tough judge. 24 I will say before I come to the Congress for 25 testimony, FBI provide me the record to read it. I didn't 118 1 read it. And then the record on the transcript will be much 2 more accurate to you. At the same time, it was script -- 3 coached by the FBI. If something is real thing, it should 4 come out with my own mouth and my own mind, no problem, I 5 remember. 6 At that moment, at that time, I am only a player on 7 a stage. I say whatever I have to say by the instruction of 8 the FBI and most of the conversation I don't remember. 9 At the same time, I don't remember that because I 10 know I wear a body wire, so all of the conversation should be 11 picking up, recorded, so I'm not going to be too worried 12 about that, so that was the situation. 13 At the same time, I did remember number three 14 person of the Department of Justice because after that 15 operation is over, when I get into the FBI's car, I was 16 jumping into the driver who is FBI, I said you got to 17 investigate your own people, what it is, and I was so mad 18 about it at the time. 19 Q Because you understood it to mean that the Justice 20 Department, this number three, was going to fix things. 21 A That's what he said to me on the conversation, we 22 can do something. 23 Q And you understood that that would be illegal. 24 That was your understanding at the time. That's why you were 25 mad. 119 1 A That's what I picked up. Yes. 2 Q And you understood that the Justice Department was 3 going to try to whitewash this whole thing. 4 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 5 Argumentative. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 What did you understand this man was trying to get 8 you to believe? 9 THE WITNESS: The man tried to show me that he had 10 the power and the mechanism to take care of my case if I keep 11 quiet. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q And that the Justice Department would not look into 14 your matters. 15 A That's behind this matter. Behind this man. 16 Q Yes. Correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Can you provide the name of the number three later? 19 A I can't. I can't. I really can't. It's on the 20 tape. 21 Q Do you have notes of who that person is? 22 A I was under FBI protection. I was under FBI 23 instruction in everything. I do not have that name, but I do 24 know it's on a tape. 25 Q Does the name Webster Hubbell ring a bell? 120 1 A No. No. I don't think so. That is not the name 2 because obviously I would remember. 3 Q The name Lee Raddick? 4 A I cannot give you the answer. 5 Q Did they tell you whether this person worked in the 6 Public Integrity section of the Justice Department? 7 A He did tell me in some section, but I don't 8 remember which section it is. 9 Q Does that sound familiar, Public Integrity section? 10 A Yes, but it's not. 11 Q It's not what? 12 A It's not the section he mentioned about. 13 Q Criminal Division? 14 A Something like that, criminal, but I don't know 15 which one, which division. Something like a criminal. 16 Q Fraud? 17 A No. That doesn't ring a bell. He did mention 18 about the name and also the division he been working in and I 19 only know it's number three person in my mind. 20 Q Did he say that there were other people he knew at 21 the Justice Department that could fix things? 22 A No, he only mentioned this particular person, 23 number three. 24 Q Forgive me if I'm asking this again, do you have 25 the impression it was a man or a woman? 121 1 A I don't. Only number three person in the 2 Department of Justice and the name and the division. I 3 really want to help, but I can't. 4 Q When you testified in front of Congress, I believe 5 that you said that there were limitations put on your 6 testimony by the Justice Department. 7 A You mean limitation? Yes. 8 Q And perhaps Mr. Sun can help us out with this in 9 terms of general subject matter, what were those limitations? 10 MR. SUN: I would just state for the record that 11 the Department of Justice advised us and I believe the 12 Committee on Government Oversight that there were three 13 names, three individuals, that Mr. Chung dealt with in the 14 1994 to 1996 period that they desired him not to discuss in 15 certain contexts. 16 So, for instance, if an individual was someone, 17 say, hypothetically there's some public document out already, 18 he could talk about that but there are certain contexts in 19 which these three individuals come up that they have asked 20 him not to talk about. 21 So it's not that he isn't going to talk about these 22 three individuals, but it's in certain contexts in which 23 these three names come up that they've asked him not to talk 24 about and Mr. Chung has an idea of what those contexts are. 25 That was the request or the direction that we got from the 122 1 Justice Department and with that limited sort of condition, 2 it is our understanding Mr. Chung was free to answer any 3 other questions at the congressional hearing and he has been 4 so instructed by me. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Were these instructions from the 6 Justice Department given in writing? 7 MR. SUN: There have been some communications in 8 writing. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you say the general subject 10 matter of the contexts? 11 MR. SUN: These are contacts with individuals that 12 are -- I believe we could say they are Chinese nationals. I 13 think that's about all I can pretty much say and relate to 14 his business dealings in China. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Well, without asking for the precise context or the 17 names, are any of these three individuals persons that you 18 met with when you went to China on the Commerce Department 19 trade mission? 20 A No. 21 MR. SUN: I know he's already answered the 22 question, but I'm going to have to be very careful and ask 23 Mr. Chung to pause before I let him answer it. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Let me ask your lawyer that 25 first. 123 1 MR. SUN: Okay. He's already answered, so -- but I 2 just would ask you, Mr. Chung, after Mr. Klayman asks a 3 question in this particular area about the three names, give 4 myself and Ms. Braswell an opportunity to object or respond. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry. 6 MR. SUN: That's all I'm saying. 7 Go ahead. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, do you, Mr. Sun, know whether 9 any of these three people were present or played any role in 10 the trade mission to China in August and September of '94? 11 MR. SUN: I don't believe that they're relevant to 12 that line of inquiry. No. I don't believe that Mr. Chung 13 met any of these folks at that time or by that time. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Did he meet any of these folks as a 15 result of that trade trip? Directly or indirectly. 16 MR. SUN: Well, that would be a harder thing 17 because one could argue as proximate cause they all sort 18 of -- eventually, because he kept going back to China and 19 this first trip started it, so I can't clearly get to that, 20 but I don't believe that -- and if you want, I can confirm 21 this with him during the next break, but I don't believe he 22 had contact with any of these individuals until after this 23 trade mission trip or whatever you want to call it. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: But the contact may have emanated 25 from contacts he made on the trade trip for the Commerce 124 1 Department. You don't know that. 2 MR. SUN: There's not much evidence of that. It 3 might be better for you to just flesh out who he met with 4 during that trip and that might help -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. We're going to get to that. 6 We're going to get to that. 7 MR. SUN: -- establish whether or not you can get 8 into that. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: We're going to go through this 10 meeting at the President's party, this event, but -- 11 THE WITNESS: The 48 years old birthday? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: The 48-year-old birthday. Right. 13 THE WITNESS: I understand. Okay. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q With regard to that trade trip to China, you made 16 many good contacts on that trip, correct? Many important 17 contacts were made by you on that trade trip to China that 18 we've just talked about, that Mr. Kearney invited you to. 19 A Three or four people. Only one people is Jim Sun, 20 which is from Xianjiang, the one who had went over to radio 21 address of March 1995. I treat him just like my own brother 22 and he was at the same restaurant the first night I was 23 there, handshake and come over to talk to me and then a 24 gentleman I expect to meet from Beijing but not far away from 25 Beijing, Xianjiang, on the border with Russia, and he was so 125 1 encouraged to come over and talk to me and I don't know how 2 he know I speak Chinese because I am talking to Jude Kearney 3 and all in English. 4 Q Where did he come over to? 5 A When I was in Chinese restaurant. That first 6 night. 7 Q The Abalone Restaurant? 8 A No. No. No. 9 Q It's a different restaurant? 10 A No. This is the very first day, first time, first 11 night when Jude Kearney picked me up in the airport. I was 12 so hungry with the long trip and I asked him to take me all 13 the way to the Chinese restaurant and then that was the first 14 restaurant. And this gentleman, I treat him just like my own 15 kid brothers. And then I am entertaining him a lot, I help 16 him out a lot. 17 Q And who else? What other good contacts? 18 A A bunch of Chinese official business cards, who I 19 don't -- a bunch of Chinese government officials business 20 card on those events we exchange. Not one of them really 21 helped. 22 Q Who were those Chinese government people? 23 A Low level, medium level of Chinese government 24 official from different department. 25 Q Which departments? 126 1 A So many department. Banking. What do you call 2 trade department. Not even one of them really had come to 3 knowing an individual person. Not individual relationship or 4 whatever, friendship build up, none. None. 5 Q Did Mr. Kearney or anyone on that trade trip ever 6 caution you about meeting with Chinese government officials? 7 A No. 8 Q No? Did anyone ever say be careful for security 9 reasons who you meet or who you talk to or who you show 10 documents? 11 A No. I am not official member. 12 Q Did anyone ever say to you that on that trip to 13 China in 1994 that there are U.S. counterintelligence agents 14 on the trip to protect American businessmen? 15 A No. 16 Q Did anyone ever give you any instruction as to how 17 the Chinese might try to take advantage of you? 18 A No, but I did have someone on the airplane just we 19 taking the same airplane, another American businessman, and 20 he said to me go to China, you got to be careful. I say I am 21 first time to go to China and it sounds like the American 22 businessman has been China so many time. 23 The first impression I arrive in China is I landed 24 in the airport. I tried to get my immigration stamped and 25 those people treat me like -- Johnny Chung, what's your 127 1 Chinese name? I say my American name is Johnny Chung. And 2 then they say how come you are Chinese but you don't have a 3 Chinese name? I say I am American, so my name is Johnny 4 Chung. And that was the conversation the first time I 5 encounter with the Chinese official. 6 I was really upset and jumping on him. I say this 7 is American citizen with American name, why you ask me what 8 my Chinese name? 9 Q Did they say here's Johnny? 10 A I don't think they ever used Johnny. 11 Q Did you get the feeling from talking to this 12 businessman that it was dangerous to be in China? 13 A To be cautious in China. But that businessman has 14 got nothing to do with this trip or anything. 15 Q Did he caution you about security in China? This 16 person? 17 A No, just be careful. Don't let them cheat you, is 18 dangerous out there. 19 Q They told you that to get things done in China you 20 had to pay bribes, correct? 21 MR. SUN: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: You knew that. 24 MR. SUN: No foundation. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 128 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You knew that, didn't you? That you didn't get 3 anything done in China unless you paid somebody off. 4 A After this trip? 5 Q Before. 6 A With my Taiwanese background, my Chinese education 7 in Taiwan, I know a little bit about that, but I don't think 8 in the United States, this is a great country, we should have 9 nothing like this. But back there, again, in China, I want 10 you to know, I never been in China before. This is my very 11 first trip. And I heard about China and from what I have 12 read from the American side and the education I got from 13 Taiwan, that was totally different way. But if I know that 14 or not, is with my Chinese culture and education in Taiwan, 15 yes, I do know a little bit about that kind of situation. 16 Q I take it from listening to your testimony on 17 Tuesday that you feel as if you were exploited by the people 18 in mainland China. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: That they took advantage of you. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 22 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. Misstates the 23 testimony. 24 MS. BRASWELL: Outside the scope. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 129 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did anyone ever say to you, Jude Kearney or anybody 4 else, be careful when you go to China, the Chinese government 5 and others may try to exploit you? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you know of anybody who was on that trade 8 mission in August and September of '94 that expressed their 9 awareness of the possibility of exploitation? 10 A No. I'm not official member. I don't feel that. 11 Q Were any materials given to you or anyone else that 12 you know of that gave you instructions on how to protect 13 yourself from exploitation by the Chinese? 14 A No. 15 Q Were there ever any materials provided to you that 16 said don't go to certain places? 17 A No. As a private citizen from the United States to 18 go there, the only person who warned me is in the hotel, 19 front desk, because I asked him, I still remember the front 20 desk, is from Singapore. I ask him, I am going to Tiananmen 21 Square and how can I get there. He said you can take a taxi 22 but he didn't tell me that you don't go there at 12:00 at the 23 middle of the day. 24 It was so hot and I got there alone and I go in and 25 out and I did not know how to get my taxi back because you 130 1 have to go all the way under the tunnel, then you got to taxi 2 back. So that's the only person who warning me, certain area 3 when you go, you have to be careful and you don't go to 4 these -- what you call hutong (phonetic), that's a small 5 alley, to get your food, the drink, the water and everything, 6 you got to be careful and that why only day, only time I went 7 out to Tiananmen Square, when I come back, I was sick. 8 Really sick. I buy a bottle of water and drink it at 9 Tiananmen Square, then I was sick. 10 Q To be a little more specific, no one ever told you 11 or anyone else that you know of beware of Chinese 12 intelligence agents. 13 A No. 14 Q And no one gave you instruction on how to combat 15 Chinese intelligence agents compromising -- 16 A During this trip, no. 17 Q -- participants on the trip. 18 A No. 19 Q Now, given your Taiwanese background, Taiwanese are 20 not generally favorably disposed towards mainland China, 21 correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q You had heard it said that if you go to China the 24 Chinese will try to spy on you and take advantage of you, 25 correct? 131 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 MR. SUN: Objection. No foundation. Misstates the 3 testimony. 4 MS. BRASWELL: And outside the scope. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I laid the foundation, Your Honor. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 Did you ever hear anybody say that? 8 THE WITNESS: My Taiwanese education teach me 9 dislike communists. All my education was completely in 10 Taiwan. Really anti-communist. Whatever we know as 11 communist, then you have that kind of feeling. But as I told 12 you, as American citizen, I try to work it out, that kind of 13 feeling, as my own judgment. I do not want my education, all 14 that kind of K&T education, Koumintang education, to 15 influence my own judgment, but I did take extra caution like 16 any American businessman. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q But the point I'm getting to is that based on your 19 education, Koumintang education, ruling party of Taiwan, you 20 were taught that the Chinese communists would do anything, 21 that they were capable of anything. 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And they were ruthless. 24 A That's correct. 25 Q Now, going back to the party, was there anyone 132 1 there -- 2 A I'm sorry, 48 years old birthday? 3 Q Forty-eight years old. 4 A Okay. 5 Q How old are you, Mr. Chung? 6 A Forty-four. 7 Q Forty-four. Okay. I'm almost 48. Did you have 8 any conversations of substance with anyone, I mean more than 9 just hello, at that party? 10 A Larry, that's the very first time trip to go to 11 join the President and the First Lady with my parents, my 12 wife and my daughter. Very excited. We were very excited 13 together. And most of the time we are talking to each other 14 and sometimes we can just take a picture with other people. 15 I do talk to a lot of people and say hello to them. 16 Do I remember what I said to them? I don't. The 17 only thing I remember is my parents were so happy. I wanted 18 to make them happy. That was my main goal that night. 19 Q Did you meet the President and Mrs. Clinton at the 20 party? 21 A Yes, we did and we did take pictures. It's on my 22 brochures. 23 Q What did you say to the President? 24 A Mr. President, it's my pleasure to meet with you 25 and later on, both of them, the First Lady and the President, 133 1 say, oh, you are all entire group? Why don't we take the 2 whole family picture together. And we did. 3 Q Did you say anything else to the President? Either 4 you to him or him to you? 5 A Happy birthday. 6 Q I take it your conversation with Mrs. Clinton was a 7 little bit more developed since you had contact with her? 8 A Yes. I did also talk to her, this is my daughter, 9 okay? And then she handshake and then we all pose the 10 picture together. 11 Q Did you thank her for sending you that letter in 12 1993? 13 A I could. I could. I could say -- yes, I may. I'm 14 sorry. I may say that. 15 Q And you reminded her that you were in the blast fax 16 business? 17 A I don't have time to do that because it was a long 18 line of people. Yes. That's the pictures. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 20 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 21 THE COURT REPORTER: 8. 22 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 8 23 was marked for identification.) 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Looking at the fourth picture, there's a big one 134 1 there, with -- I believe that's you, Mrs. Clinton and the 2 President, correct? 3 A That's correct. At the state room. 4 Q It's Exhibit 256-3. Was this at the birthday 5 party? 6 A No, that was the Christmas of '94 party. 7 Q That was a party later. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. And who took this picture? Was this a White 10 House photographer? 11 A One of them could be my camera and also the White 12 House official. At that time, I told him that I wanted to 13 have a picture taken, too, so I handed it over to those 14 people in the White House. They used my pocket camera. I 15 was so used to bring my pocket camera everywhere, including 16 today. 17 Q You have it today? 18 A You betcha. You betcha. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, we don't have to take any 20 photographs, Mr. Klayman. Let's move along, please. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q The second page, Mr. Johnny Chung greeting 23 President Clinton -- Mr. Johnny Chung and family at the 24 President's 48th birthday celebration. Is that your entire 25 family? 135 1 A Yes. Not entire family now, but then. Missing my 2 son and now after that, we still have one daughter, youngest 3 one. And we expect the new one coming up on Christmas this 4 year. 5 Q Congratulations. 6 A Thank you. 7 Q Were there any pictures taken with the President or 8 First Lady at that birthday party? 9 A This is the only one we take. 10 Q So you didn't have one of the President at that 11 party? 12 A I'm sorry? 13 Q You didn't take one of the President and 14 Mrs. Clinton at that party? 15 A No. This is the only one we take. 16 Q Now, given that we've gone over a number of 17 different areas that perhaps has refreshed your recollection, 18 do you now have a better memory as to whether or not you 19 discussed anything with Jude Kearney or anyone else at the 20 Commerce Department at that birthday party? 21 A I met a lot of people. I may discuss a lot of 22 different thing, I don't pay too much attention to it. And 23 as I said to you, I was introduced to Jude Kearney by Reta 24 Lewis. Most of the trip about that event, that trip to go to 25 China first time for me, it was -- the whole entire 136 1 conversation was in Jude Kearney's office in Commerce 2 Department. That's the best recollection. 3 Q Do you know if there were other Commerce Department 4 officials who went to that birthday party? 5 A I don't. I don't. 6 Q Have you ever met someone by the name of Melissa 7 Moss? 8 A Maybe I do, maybe I don't. I'm sorry, Larry. This 9 is the first event for me. There are so many new things to 10 me and I was paying more attention to my family member than 11 other people. 12 Q Did you meet a Ms. Moss later? 13 A I don't remember. 14 Q Do you remember a Sally Painter? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q A James Hackney? 17 A I don't remember, really. 18 Q Rob Stein? 19 A It doesn't ring a bell. If I can provide a picture 20 to you, those are people who I met -- 21 Q We're going to go back into that. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Some of the documents use these names that you 24 provided this morning. 25 A Okay. 137 1 Q But during that birthday party, did anyone ask you 2 for any additional contributions to the Democratic Party? 3 A Yes, another $1000 extra. I think at that event I 4 have a $10,000 check. You saw it. I have another $1000. 5 Q What was the $1000 for? 6 A That was a kind of -- if I recall, I feel I had to 7 pay $1000 more for my daughter was there, extra person, okay? 8 And I was so honest, I say, hey, I got my daughter, I don't 9 want to get a freebie for that. 10 Q I turn your attention to Exhibit 4, we previously 11 showed you Exhibit 5. There are two checks, one at the 12 bottom, 1277732, a $1000 check. Is that the extra amount you 13 paid for your daughter? 14 A Yes. I think -- I think that was the reason. 15 Q Now, at the bottom of this page it says Munyon. Do 16 you know -- 17 A I don't know. 18 Q -- a Ms. Munyon or Mr. Munyon or something to that 19 effect? 20 A Yes, I do. She was the one who took that picture 21 for us. African-American lady. I give the camera to her. 22 Q Was she with the Democratic National Committee, 23 too? 24 A I do not know at that time, but she was nice to me, 25 take the camera and take a lot of picture for us. 138 1 Q Now, after that birthday party, some time later, 2 were you contacted by anyone from the Democratic National 3 Committee, the White House, or the Commerce Department? 4 Let's start with the Democratic National Committee. 5 MR. SUN: Any time after? I'm sorry. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, in the immediate period 7 afterwards, say in the next month. 8 THE WITNESS: After that event, I been hit by the 9 DNC fundraising letters monthly, all the time. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What was the frequency? 12 A Weeks, months. I can say all the time, weeks or 13 months. 14 Q Who were they from? 15 A DNC. 16 Q And do you know who -- I take it that they were 17 signed or at least the names of Chairman Don Fowler and 18 Chairman Christopher Dodd appeared? 19 A Yes. And also the chairman, the previous chairman, 20 David Will -- 21 Q David Wilhelm? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And they asked you for contributions. 24 A All kind of invitation, all the time, it never 25 stopped. As I told you, until seven days or ten days ago, 139 1 still coming. 2 Q Did you ever tell them please stop? 3 A After campaign contribution, I believe my attorney 4 tried to make a point at the court or either somewhere else, 5 it was the news media to tell them that I still got it and I 6 still received it so I decided to talk to them two days ago 7 after my congressional hearing I am broke and don't send any 8 letter to me. I said it publicly in my testimony. 9 Q Did you talk to anybody in particular? 10 A No, I said it to the congressmen in the hearing. I 11 said I am broke. I remember I said it to Congressman Waxman. 12 I said I'm broke, don't send anything to me. 13 Q Has Congressman Waxman ever solicited contributions 14 from you? 15 A August 29, 1996, DNC convention, we were on the 16 fifth floor of the DNC convention and we know each other, 17 handshake and pose the pictures, the picture I give it to the 18 FBI, and he asked me, you can join me to my fundraiser party 19 in Los Angeles. 20 Q To what party? 21 A His fundraising party in Los Angeles. 22 Q And did you go? 23 A No. I don't pay too much attention with the 24 congressmen at that time. 25 Q But you understood that he was asking you for money 140 1 to go to his fundraising party. 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Have you ever contributed to Congressman Waxman? 4 A No. 5 Q Was there a reason why you didn't? 6 A I don't pay too much attention with the 7 congressmen. 8 Q Him in particular? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to this continued line of 10 questioning. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Sustained. 12 Let's move on, Mr. Klayman. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q The reason you don't pay attention to congressmen 15 is they're not high up enough. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: My eyes are put on the President and 19 the First Lady. I don't even put attention with the Vice 20 President. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Okay. If you're going to give money, you might as 23 well give it to the top. That's what your approach is. 24 A For my business purpose. As I said at my hearing 25 with the congressional people, congressional hearing two days 141 1 ago, this is part of my business. 2 Q Now, the fundraising letters were coming and these 3 letters in addition to saying that you could go to certain 4 events also promised certain benefits for giving money, 5 correct? Other than just going to an event. Let me rephrase 6 that. 7 A Yes, please. 8 Q The fundraising letters promised certain benefits 9 in making the contributions, correct? Certain rewards for 10 making them. 11 A That's what I understood. 12 Q And you understood that if you made the 13 contributions, you would get special treatment? 14 A I would get access. That's what I said. Yes. 15 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, Mr. Klayman. Are you asking 16 what his understanding was or what was in the actual 17 literature that was -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: No, his understanding. We don't have 19 the literature. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q But you derived that understanding from the letters 22 that you got, correct? That's where you had the 23 understanding. 24 A Larry, I don't really read too much what those 25 fundraiser letters. My general manager read it for me. Most 142 1 of the time, I asked her the question when, what time. 2 That's all I want to know. 3 Q These fundraising letters contained invitations not 4 only to fundraising events, but the ability to meet 5 Democratic Party leaders, correct? 6 A That's what I understood. Yes. 7 Q And to participate in Democratic Party events. 8 A That's what I understand. Yes. 9 Q And to participate in activities sponsored by the 10 Clinton administration. 11 A That's what I understand. Yes. I also want to 12 make one extra statement here. I always ask my general 13 manager is the President of the United States going to be 14 there or not. If not, don't even tell me. If yes, then I 15 think about it. 16 Q And you understood that the access that was going 17 to be provided was also to the White House. 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And that the access that was going to be provided 20 was going to be to the government. 21 A The White House, I understand. The government, I 22 do not understand that way about that. 23 Q That wasn't what hit you at the time. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. And you understood that if you made the 143 1 contributions and if some time in the future you needed some 2 help from the White House to get the government to be 3 responsive, that it would make it more likely. 4 A That's what I learned slowly. Yes. 5 Q And you learned that in part from getting these 6 letters. 7 A That's correct. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 10 THE COURT REPORTER: 9. 11 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 9 12 was marked for identification.) 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q This is a Democratic National Committee brochure 15 for DNC Managing Trustees Events and Membership Requirements 16 and it refers to being able to attend meetings with the 17 President in Washington, the Vice President; it refers to 18 annual economic trade missions; it refers to policy briefings 19 and daily briefing fax subscription. 20 These were the kinds of things that you understood 21 that if you gave money to the Democratic National Committee 22 you would be able to participate in, correct? 23 MR. SUN: I would object just on the matter of 24 foundation as to whether or not the witness has seen this 25 document or in fact -- 144 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm not asking about that. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think he's asking about 3 that. I think he's just asking a more general question. 4 You can answer the question. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me rephrase it. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q These are the kinds of things you understood that 8 if you contributed to the Democratic Party you would be able 9 to participate in. 10 A Yes. And I see this documentation way after 1997, 11 when I was cleaning up after -- I'm sorry, 1998. I am one 12 and a half employee in my office now and I was cleaning up 13 some office after this -- all of the plea agreement, 14 sentencing and everything is over, I try to pack up my 15 office, just documentation. I found some of this from my 16 former general manager's desk. 17 And then I begin to have a lot of time, I told you 18 I have a lot of time, I've been reading, and in late 1998 I 19 begin to understand this. But during that period of time, I 20 don't. 21 Q And where is that documentation? You gave it to 22 the FBI? 23 A I gave it to the FBI. 24 Q And you don't have a copy of it any more? 25 A Larry, again, I'm going to say so many government 145 1 agency come to ask me the documentation, including IRS and 2 everybody. I don't have a very complete documentation any 3 more. I don't even have my family picture complete. I mean, 4 in my office. 5 Q So I guess you didn't keep copies of everything. 6 A I did not have the general manager with me at that 7 time any more so we don't keep a copy. Maybe they took it. 8 MR. SUN: Just to clarify the record, Mr. Klayman, 9 about documents -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Not here. Can we -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, had a question for the 12 witness about this area as well. 13 Why don't you step out? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask the questions and then 15 finish the line and then we'll get to that? 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Wait a second. I want to talk 17 about something. Just a second. 18 Why don't you step outside? 19 (The witness was excused.) 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Maybe my question will anticipate 21 where you're going and we can resolve it. 22 One thing I don't understand, Mr. Sun, when he was 23 being served subpoenas by apparently every agency on the face 24 of the earth -- 25 MR. SUN: That's a pretty fair characterization, 146 1 Your Honor. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you supervise getting the 3 documents together? 4 MR. SUN: Yes, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And then the XYZ agency would say 6 we want the documents, did you then keep a copy of what you 7 were giving them? 8 MR. SUN: We retained copies of documents that we 9 produced. That's what I was trying to explain to 10 Mr. Klayman. Mr. Chung does not have much in the way of 11 recollection or knowledge about documents or what was 12 retained or what was actually there. He basically, as he 13 testified, turned everything over to us and we tried to 14 respond to various subpoenas. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But each time you responded and 16 you gave the XYZ agency documents, you retained a copy of 17 what you had given them? 18 MR. SUN: Yes, I believe so. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We're not deposing Brian, but -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I mean, you're not absolutely 22 certain, are you, that you kept a copy of everything? And 23 you don't know that you got everything. 24 MR. SUN: Well, let's put it this way. It is my 25 practice at my office when I produce something to a party 147 1 that subpoenas documents to make every effort to retain a 2 copy of that which is produced and I believe that was the 3 case in this matter as well. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Does that answer your question? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I understand that's from a 6 lawyer's perspective, but being a lawyer myself, I know 7 sometimes clients don't give you all the documents, that 8 sometimes your staff loses documents, they get destroyed. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What did you want to talk to 10 Mr. Chung about? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Just what I'm talking about right 12 now, just taking him through the line here. I just didn't 13 want to get an interruption. I appreciate that proffer by 14 Mr. Sun. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Come in, Mr. Chung. 16 (The witness returned.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Who was the name of the manager that had control of 19 these documents that you found later in 1998? 20 A Irene Wu. 21 Q Irene Wu? 22 A Yes. 23 Q How is the Wu spelled? 24 A W-u. 25 Q And where is she located? 148 1 A After the campaign finance scandal broke, they all 2 leaving me. I don't know now. She used to be my former 3 general manager. 4 Q She lives in the Los Angeles area? 5 A When he left my office, that's what I know and then 6 we don't have that much contact any more because I also want 7 you to know ongoing investigation and at that time they don't 8 want me to talk to anyone. 9 Q What was his first name? I thought you said Irene. 10 Did I -- 11 A Irene. Her. 12 Q Because then you said he. So that was accidental? 13 A Accidental. Her. 14 Q She lives in the Los Angeles area. 15 A That's the latest I know, it was 1998. 16 Q In Torrance, that area? In and around that area? 17 A No. San Gabriel or somewhere. 18 Q And you don't know whether or not Ms. Wu took some 19 documents when she left? For an absolute fact, you don't 20 know that. 21 A I don't think so because some of the -- Larry, 22 there are so many people in and out my office on the ongoing 23 investigation at that time. And one night, a lot of FBI 24 agent was there, I voluntarily allowed them to search, I 25 was -- a lot of time I was not in my office because the media 149 1 were chasing after me and I might have collected some of the 2 information for my attorney, it's very confusing. You don't 3 know what I been going through the last two years, that was 4 really -- 5 Q Sometimes that these people were in your office, 6 they were there and your lawyer was not there, correct? 7 A These people, when you mean government people, with 8 the knowledge of my attorney they are coming to my office, 9 yes. 10 Q But was there an occasion or two, a time or two 11 when they were in your office and your lawyer wasn't there 12 yet or was not coming? 13 A My attorney told me that it's okay as long as you 14 are there and then they were searching that -- some extra 15 information for the other case on that day, the FBI agent, 16 okay? Because I always keep the file exactly the way it is 17 and then I don't want to touch it because it's more easy for 18 me to go different room. 19 Even I'm the only employee right now in my office, 20 I still maintain -- I have a general manager office, 21 accounting office, so the documentation won't be moved from 22 one place to another. 23 I also want to mention to you of course there's 24 nothing burned. My office has been catching fire once, okay? 25 Electrical problems probably. But I did ask the fire 150 1 department take a good picture, we did not lose any file at 2 all, okay? 3 Q When was there a fire? 4 A After Tom Brokaw's interview, two month -- August. 5 Two moth before the Brokaw interview. That's how I can -- 6 it's very confusing, that moment. I'm sorry about that. 7 Q The interview was before 1998? Is that what you're 8 saying? 9 A Yes, that's what I say. Yes. 10 Q Or was it after 1998? 11 A The only thing, Tom Brokaw interviewed, one month 12 or two month before that interview. Before Tom Brokaw 13 interview. 14 Q I think we have the interview. Let me see if I can 15 find it. 16 A The regular interview date and then probably one 17 month or two month. If you need it, you can find information 18 from Torrance fire department. I also asked them to be very 19 careful taking a lot of pictures for sure -- to make sure 20 there is not any documentation missing. 21 Can I say something here about the fire? 22 Q Yes, go on. 23 A There's only file cabinet -- empty cabinet and then 24 some of the business paper, envelope was burned, but created 25 huge smoke. And then they take good pictures on that one 151 1 because I told them that I am the target of investigation of 2 Department of Justice, I don't want anybody misunderstood 3 that anything burned or anything. 4 Q The question I originally asked, there were some 5 times that you met with government people when Mr. Sun wasn't 6 there. 7 A Yes. 8 Q And during those meetings, you sometimes would show 9 them documents. 10 A I asked them to go and find documentation. They 11 asked me what documentation they are looking for, I said 12 maybe the office of the general manager, Irene Wu used to be 13 in this office, you can go ahead and search. If they are 14 looking for accounting department, accounting department over 15 there. I said this will be the area you want to search. 16 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I need to object just that 17 this line of questioning is vague as to time, particularly if 18 it's talking about meetings with Mr. Chung and FBI agents -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, this is a speaking objection, 20 Your Honor. 21 MR. SUN: -- FBI agents without his counsel 22 present. The reason why I say it's vague as to time because 23 Mr. Chung has testified he had a plea agreement, he 24 cooperated with the government, so we need to -- I'd ask for 25 a clarification as to time. 152 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could you nail it down, please, as 2 to time? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'll get to that, Your Honor. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I want to establish the general fact that when you 6 allowed these government people to go through your files, you 7 didn't stand over them at each moment, did you? 8 A No, I don't. 9 Q And you don't know whether or not some of these 10 government people took documents. 11 A I cannot make any comment on that. 12 Q That were never given to your counsel, Mr. Sun. 13 MR. SUN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: You don't know that. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: And that's my point. I think that 19 establishes -- that moots everything else out. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go on. 21 THE WITNESS: You need to understand I am the only 22 one person in my office. Sometimes I have answered the phone 23 and doing the job. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Right. And some of these government people came 153 1 from the Justice Department, right? 2 A I believe the FBI belong to the Justice Department. 3 Q Right. 4 A That's what I know. 5 Q Now, you were getting these fundraising letters one 6 after the other. Did you make some additional contributions 7 up to the point that you went on that trade trip to China? 8 You made some more, didn't you? 9 A After that one, if you've got my donation records, 10 it's there, all the business purpose for a place and a time I 11 can take those people to take a picture with the President 12 and all the First Lady and make a lot additional since then. 13 After that. 14 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, Mr. Klayman. Was your 15 question donations between the first one and his visit to 16 China on the trade thing? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 18 MR. SUN: That's what I thought. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think he understood that. 21 MR. SUN: I don't think he understood it that way. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Between the time that you made the first $11,000 25 contribution, which occurred in August of '94, you made 154 1 $11,000 in August, right? 2 A Mm-hmm. Yes. 3 Q Ten for you and your family and another 1000 for 4 your daughter. 5 A Yes. 6 Q And the time that you actually went on the trade 7 trip, which was around August 27th, is when it started, to 8 China, did you make any more during that period? 9 A No. 10 Q And did you raise money from other people for the 11 Democrats? Did you encourage your friends to make some 12 contributions? I take it you did. 13 MR. SUN: Objection. That assumes facts not in 14 evidence. No foundation. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can answer the question. 16 Disregard the last. 17 THE WITNESS: Can I answer? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: At the First Lady's birthday, I did 20 ask some of my shareholder or other people would you like to 21 go to the birthday, they go with me, everybody pay their way 22 to go. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q And when was her birthday? 25 A That was December '94, I think -- I got the exactly 155 1 date -- I don't have the exactly date, but you should have a 2 record of my donation on that one. I do include other 3 shareholder of my company and take the other people to go. 4 Q Up to the time that you made this first $11,000 5 contribution, had you ever donated money to the Democrats or 6 any Clinton political campaigns? 7 A No. I don't think so. 8 Q Between the time of your first contribution of 9 $11,000 and going on the trade -- 10 A Before? 11 Q Yes. Which occurred in early August. 12 A Okay. Yes. 13 Q The dates on the checks are August 1st. 14 A Yes. 15 Q And your going to China, did you tell anyone at the 16 Democratic National Committee or Ms. Lewis or anybody else, 17 you know, I'm going to make some more contributions in the 18 future? 19 A I may, I may not. I don't recall. 20 Q But you were quite happy with being able to go to 21 these events. 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And it was your own intention, your own state of 24 mind at the time, that you wanted to go to future events. 25 A That's correct. 156 1 Q And it's from that that you think that you may have 2 told them that I'm going to make some more contributions. 3 A I don't recall I say that. 4 Q Anything like that? 5 A My heart was really appreciated they would set up 6 all of this for me. 7 Q So you may have said that. 8 A I may. I may -- and, again, I want to say that to 9 go to those events, I find out there is an opportunity for me 10 to go, take the business friend, take a picture with the 11 President of the United States, then I will go. 12 Q All right. You once said, I'm just using the words 13 loosely, that you understood that getting to the White House 14 was like going into a turnstile, you had to put the coins in 15 before you could go in. 16 A If you want the quote exactly what I said, that is 17 not exactly what I said. 18 Q Okay. Exactly what you said. What did you say? 19 A I say the White House is like a subway. You have 20 to put in a coin to open the gate. 21 Q Right. And you understood that when it came to 22 doing other things with the Clinton administration, you would 23 have to put in coins to do those other things, too. 24 A I learned that later on, step by step. That's my 25 statement there. 157 1 Q Right. Whether it's trade missions or meetings, 2 you have to put the coins in. 3 MR. SUN: Objection. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: Before the trade mission? I have no 7 idea. After the trade mission and all the birthday and 8 everything and Christmas party, yes. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You came to learn that. 11 A I came to learn that. 12 Q You came to learn that the whole thing was for 13 sale. 14 A Whole thing is just like a subway. 15 Q Or could you say it was like Disneyland, to go on 16 the rides, you had to buy a ticket? 17 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. Putting words 18 in my client's mouth. 19 THE WITNESS: I stay with the statement that I gave 20 to Tom Brokaw. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: And you -- 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Los Angeles Times. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. I think we can move 24 on. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. All right. 158 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So in retrospect, you understood why people were 3 soliciting money once you had made that realization, you 4 realized that you were going on the subway ride. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 MR. SUN: Vague as to time as well. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 10 THE WITNESS: For my business purpose, if I want to 11 take a friend to go over there and take a picture with the 12 President, yes, I would donate and to get access. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you have any discussions with other people 15 saying -- reaffirming this realization, that to do anything 16 with the Clinton administration you had to pay for it? 17 A Other people? What you mean? Chinese businessmen? 18 Q Chinese businessmen or anyone. 19 A I think they understood that. 20 Q Did anyone ever say that? 21 A If anyone know the Chinese culture, they won't say 22 it face to face, there are so many things, say it so polite. 23 Mutually understood. And, again, I stay with my statement, 24 that is not the only purpose for those businessmen to come to 25 here, to do it. 159 1 They also asked me to do so many things. Guide 2 them around the whole country, even before that I tried to 3 get a visa for them and then tried to come to United States 4 with an interpreter service, limousine service, first class 5 airline ticket, presidential suite, all kind of stuff with 6 the employee of my AISI to provide that kind of service. 7 Sometimes it's a heavy burden. And then taking the pictures, 8 yes, that is a mutual understanding part of it. 9 Do those people know the consulting fee I receive 10 from them will be part of -- is going to be campaign 11 contribution? Yes. Mutually understanding. They don't -- 12 as the Chinese culture, they just don't say it. I mean -- 13 understood sometimes by eye to eye. 14 Am I giving you - 15 Q I understand. 16 A You seem to understand a lot about this. 17 Q Yes. Thank you. Now, after you had this meeting 18 with Jude Kearney, or during the meeting with Jude Kearney, 19 did Mr. Kearney say to you I'd like to participate in your 20 fax business? 21 A No, that's not the way he said to me. 22 Q How did he say it? 23 A I would like to know your business, I will 24 introduce some friend back there in China for you, which is 25 introduced Charlie Trie to me. 160 1 Q Did he tell you why Charlie Trie could be important 2 for your business? 3 A He is well known back there in China and well known 4 here in United States and also one of us which is 5 Asian-American. Ended up with Charlie Trie once tried to ask 6 me for my machine to be promoted in China. I don't want it 7 because I know the language, I know the culture, I've been 8 there, I want to promote by myself. I think I can do better 9 by myself. 10 Q You don't need to cut anybody else in on it because 11 it's your business. 12 A I don't need a middleman. I tried to do it by 13 myself. 14 Q Did you receive the impression when Mr. Kearney 15 said this to you that he through Mr. Trie wanted to become 16 part of your business? 17 MR. SUN: He meaning Mr. Kearney? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Kearney. Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: He would try to help me to promote 20 this business if he can. That's only impression I got. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you become aware that there were people in 23 addition to Mr. Trie who were out there doing business in 24 China that were close to the Clinton administration in 25 talking with Mr. Kearney? 161 1 A About this trip? During this trip? 2 Q Generally. Generally. Just generally. 3 A Oh, later after 1996? Are we talking -- which 4 period? 5 Q I'm talking about just this conversation. Did you 6 receive the impression from Mr. Kearney's statements that 7 there were people other than Mr. Trie who were close to the 8 Clinton administration that could be helpful in doing 9 business in China? 10 A My own impression, I cannot say -- I say to myself 11 a lot of time, that's what I know, the people working for the 12 Clinton administration and then obviously they can get me on 13 this, even though I'm not official member of the trip, that 14 helped. But I didn't say it to anyone, that's my own 15 impression, okay? That conversation didn't come out that 16 way. 17 MR. SUN: I'm not sure he understood your question, 18 Mr. Klayman. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, I think he did. And you'll have 20 an opportunity to cross-examine. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did the name Mark Middleton come up during that 23 conversation? 24 A No. 25 Q Joseph Giroir, G-i-r-o-i-r? 162 1 A No. No. 2 Q Mark Grobmyer? 3 A No. No one name come up. Period. 4 Q Except for Trie. 5 A Except Charlie Trie. 6 Q And did Mr. Kearney explain Mr. Trie's background, 7 going back to Arkansas? 8 A The best recollection I can give it to you will 9 make you more simple to understand. Do you know Mr. Charlie 10 Trie? No, I said. Yah Lin Trie. How do you spell Trie, I 11 ask. I say no. He is one of the Chinese-American. That's 12 it. Okay. I might introduce you when you are there in 13 China. Okay. That's it. 14 Q Did he say that Mr. Trie knew the President? 15 A Oh, yes. I said it over there, he is the friend of 16 the President and also from Little Rock, from Arkansas. 17 Q And he's a friend of Mrs. Clinton. 18 A He's a friend of Mr. Jude Kearney. 19 Q That Charlie Trie knew the President, Mrs. Clinton 20 and Mr. Kearney. 21 A I don't remember talking about Mrs. Clinton or not, 22 but I do know the President of the United States. 23 Q And he told you that Mr. Trie got to know the 24 President because he had a Chinese restaurant near the state 25 capital? 163 1 A No. 2 Q You didn't know that at the time? 3 A No. No. 4 Q Just that -- 5 A The conversation -- 6 Q Just that he was a friend of President Clinton's. 7 A Yes. And friend of Mr. Jude Kearney himself. 8 Q Right. And that is why Mr. Kearney suggested you 9 get to know him, in part. 10 A Yes. I was curious -- my curiosity, I did not know 11 why I had to know this guy. 12 Q And did you meet Mr. Kearney's secretary when you 13 went to his office? 14 A One or two. One or two. Yes. For the reason is 15 some time I set up meeting with Mr. Kearney, some time I 16 wanted to find out where is Mr. Kearney in Beijing and one 17 time on the -- December 1994 when Haomen Beer people come 18 over, I tried to -- remember I tried to tell you that those 19 people tried to promote their beer. 20 I even take them to Jude Kearney's office, they 21 take a picture with Jude Kearney with a beer. They take a 22 lot of picture and they try to promote their beer. 23 Q When was that? 24 A I think around Christmas party, December 1993. The 25 same trip they come to meet with the President at the White 164 1 House. 2 Q Was there anyone else present when you brought 3 these beer people in to take a picture with Mr. Kearney? 4 A Me, Haomen Beer two people, Jude Kearney, maybe the 5 secretary was outside. That's it. 6 Q Do you know whether -- did you walk in his office? 7 Is that where you were? 8 A We set up the meeting and we go to his office. 9 Q Did Mr. Kearney ever say to you do you know I have 10 a top secret clearance? 11 A No. I don't know that. I never asked him. 12 Q Did you see any special precautions when these 13 people were brought into his office to clear his desk or any 14 other papers in the room? 15 A There's not a single piece of paper on the 16 conference room, on the desk. I can tell you the only thing 17 is the Chinese flag, American flag and one or two bottles 18 Haomen Beer's beer. And me and them and taking a picture. 19 And Haomen Beer trying to give him the brochure on Haomen 20 Beer. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me see if I have this right. 22 There are two bottles of beer? 23 THE WITNESS: That -- what do you call it, cans? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Cans of beer? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Two cans of beer. 165 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And this is in an office at the 2 Department of Commerce? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. They tried to give it to Jude 4 Kearney as a gift. Never opened it. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. And then somebody 6 takes a picture of that? 7 THE WITNESS: They take a picture. They have a 8 picture. I don't have it. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who is the they? 10 THE WITNESS: Haomen Beer people. The Chinese beer 11 company. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry. A little confusing. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So this was in a separate conference room? 15 A I'm sorry, Your Honor, did I answer your question? 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You did. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q This was in a separate conference room, it wasn't 19 in Mr. Kearney's personal office? 20 A I cannot answer that question. I don't even know 21 his personal office or that's a conference room. 22 Q Was there a desk in there? 23 A It's a long table. 24 Q Just a long table? A conference table? 25 A Conference table. 166 1 Q But no desk. 2 A There's desk. There's desk. 3 Q There was a desk? 4 A There was desk. 5 Q Did you ever have contact with a Ms. Christine 6 Sopko? 7 A Doesn't ring a bell. 8 Q That was his secretary. 9 A I'm sorry. 10 Q He had another one, Halena Malinowsky? 11 A Could be. I don't recall. Larry, American name is 12 very bad to me. Maybe I can prove it to you, okay? Maybe. 13 Maybe not. The only thing I can say to you there's a 14 secretary. 15 Q Did the secretary ever send you documents by fax? 16 A Could be. Regarding of the trip I wanted to go to 17 China, itinerary or something, or we maybe faxed to them to 18 make sure what flight I am going to arrive in Beijing, China. 19 I remember there is some contact between my office and Jude 20 Kearney's office. 21 Q This is the trade mission you went to in the fall 22 of '94. 23 A Yes. But I'm not with the whole entire delegation. 24 I was leaving from Los Angeles to Beijing individually. 25 Q Do you know where those documents are today? 167 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Now, when you met with Mr. Kearney, did he tell you 3 that Mr. Trie lived and worked in Washington at the 4 Watergate? 5 A No, not at that time. Not at that time. 6 Q You found that out later. 7 A Later. 8 Q When did you find that out? 9 A When I begin to know Charlie Trie a little bit and 10 at the one occasion he told me he is going to move into 11 Watergate. And that's all I know. 12 Q Did he tell you that during the trip to China in 13 the fall of '94? 14 A No, I don't think so. 15 Q That was later? 16 A That was later. 17 Q Okay. Now, after you had that meeting with 18 Mr. Kearney -- 19 A By the way, Larry, I don't have too much in contact 20 with Charlie Trie, too. 21 Q After you had the meeting with Mr. Kearney, did you 22 have any more contact with Reta Lewis up to the point that 23 you went to China in late August of '94? 24 A Maybe. Maybe not. One or two time. I don't 25 recall. 168 1 Q And you talked to her about the trade mission to 2 China? 3 A Could be. Maybe I did. And then at one point I 4 was contacted when Reta Lewis transferred to -- how do I say 5 it in English -- in the transition from Reta Lewis to Richard 6 Sullivan. Of the DNC. 7 Q Okay. So you told Reta Lewis you were going on the 8 trade trip to China and she in that context referred you to 9 Mr. Sullivan? 10 A No. No. That is not what I said. In that period 11 after I come back from the trade mission to the First Lady's 12 birthday party, my contact, my point contact person begin to 13 change, not from Reta Lewis, go all the way to Richard 14 Sullivan. Because at that time Richard Sullivan begin to 15 solicit all of the campaign contribution to me and become to 16 be my -- he come to my point contact person at the DNC. 17 Q Okay. It was in the same period that you were 18 talking to Ms. Lewis, telling her you were going on the trade 19 mission, it was in this general period that she put you in 20 contact with Richard Sullivan. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. 23 MR. SUN: I join in the objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 THE WITNESS: David Mercer working for the 169 1 DNC and somehow, some way which I don't know what 2 happened and Richard Sullivan and the DNC became to 3 contact with me. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q During this time period. 6 A Later after this time period. Before First Lady's 7 birthday. 8 Q Okay. And during the period leading up to the 9 China trade mission. 10 A After. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Is there something you want to say, 12 Ms. Braswell? 13 MS. BRASWELL: No. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I would ask that those 15 kinds of objections which are unnecessary -- 16 MS. BRASWELL: I made no objection. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: That is a speaking objection. 18 MS. BRASWELL: I made no objection, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I didn't hear her say anything. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, no, before that last testimony. 21 That's the kind of thing when I ask a question and they 22 obviously understand, you know, why I'm asking it, you get an 23 objection, misstates prior testimony, that is telling the 24 witness something. 25 MS. BRASWELL: No, Your Honor. That's a perfectly 170 1 fair objection when Mr. Klayman misstates prior testimony. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's -- 3 MR. SUN: I heard no -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go on, please. 5 MS. BRASWELL: I didn't say what the testimony was. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We're facing a time deadline here, 7 Mr. Klayman. Please, let's go on. 8 MR. SUN: May I make an inquiry, Your Honor? Is 9 1:00 the time -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's the problem we're going to 11 have, that we've only got -- I think we should break right 12 now, shouldn't we? But we should try to get back as quickly 13 as we can at five to twelve and then what is the plan, the 14 scheduled end of this today? 15 MR. SUN: I thought we discussed 1:00, but I wanted 16 to make sure that was Your Honor's expectation. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's what my recollection was, 18 or 1:30. 19 Now, you've got to be where? 20 MR. SUN: At Dulles by three. I have to go back to 21 my hotel and get some bags. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we discuss when it would be 23 convenient for Mr. Sun and Mr. Chung to resume? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We can do that right now. We'll 25 take five minutes. 171 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 2 11:51. 3 (A brief recess was taken.) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 5 12:06. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Mr. Chung, I believe that when we took a break we 8 were questioning you about contacts with people such as Reta 9 Lewis and how she put you on to Richard Sullivan, correct? 10 You remember that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And was there anybody else after that President's 13 birthday party that you had contact with at the White House 14 in and around the time that you went to China or just 15 thereafter? 16 A No one else, just Reta Lewis I know. 17 Q And when did you make your first contact with 18 Richard Sullivan? 19 A I don't recall, but I can say there was the 20 invitation they sent to me and the phone call exchange, I 21 know the time and the place for the First Lady birthday in 22 Los Angeles. 23 Q And did it ask you for a contribution to go to that 24 birthday party? 25 A They asked me would you like to join us for that 172 1 event. 2 Q And did they tell you how much that was going to 3 cost? 4 A Can you frame the question one more time? 5 Q Did they tell you how much that was going to cost? 6 A Yes. 7 Q How much? 8 A My best recollection is 5000 per person. 9 Q Did they send you materials about that event? 10 A Has to be, otherwise, I do not know how much it 11 will be. 12 Q Did you buy tickets to that event? 13 A I did. 14 Q How many did you buy? 15 A I have to go back to my contribution as of that 16 date, how much I donated and how much ticket I buy. I can 17 tell you that I'm very poor money management person, okay? 18 While I believe it's $5000, whatever money is, that's how 19 many tickets I bought, including I took my parents and 20 myself, my wife, my guest who are American citizen. 21 Q So roughly speaking, how many did you take? How 22 many people? 23 A Six people I take, which is my family member, and 24 the other people, they donated by themselves. That's all I 25 remember. 173 1 Q Okay. So does the figure $40,000 sound about 2 right, how much you gave? 3 A Yes, that's correct. 4 Q And you had offered to make that amount of 5 contribution before you went on that trade mission to China. 6 You hadn't made it yet, but you told them you were going to 7 make it? 8 MR. SUN: Objection. Assumes facts not in 9 evidence. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 12 THE WITNESS: No. No. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When did you make it? 15 A After I come back from China and then before -- the 16 same day I am going first time after I came to United States 17 I was ready to go back to Taiwan, very first time, it was 18 same day. And maybe seven day to ten day before that event. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I interject here? 20 This is the kind of objection which is highly objectionable. 21 Anything I ask that's new will assume facts not in evidence, 22 so when someone makes an objection like that, it's signalling 23 the witness and that's objectionable. 24 I could go through every deposition in this case 25 and find every time I ask a question that had any degree of 174 1 significance one way or the other, somebody makes an 2 objection and I'm asking for it to stop. 3 MR. SUN: Your Honor, if I could make the 4 observation, Mr. Klayman can ask proper questions from my 5 standpoint such as did you make the decision to contribute to 6 the December event before you went on the trade mission. 7 Instead, he leads, he misstates and tries to put words in my 8 client's mouth and that's where I believe the objection is 9 appropriate and proper. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: And that's the basis and this Court 11 in this and other cases has said time in and time out that's 12 why you have cross-examination. And I'm happy to provide 13 that time to Mr. Sun. 14 MR. SUN: Well, Your Honor -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm entitled to ask a leading 16 question, that's civil procedure 101. 17 MR. SUN: Yes, but I don't believe they should be 18 argumentative, misleading or misstate the facts and that's 19 why I think I speak up. My client is, I believe, a third 20 party in this lawsuit and I don't plan to try to do a lot of 21 cross-examination. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Your client has absolute immunity and 23 the fact that I'm asking these questions -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I must say he's doing extremely 25 well. 175 1 MR. KLAYMAN: He is. The client is being helpful. 2 It's the lawyers that I object to and it's so uniform, 3 Your Honor, that I'd like just an instruction that that's not 4 necessary. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm sure he's not asking 6 this Court to instruct us that we are incapable of making 7 objections. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not what I'm saying, 9 Ms. Braswell, and you know that. 10 MR. SUN: Your Honor, where I draw the distinction, 11 and we may have different styles, Mr. Klayman, being from 12 California, speaking objections would be if I said objection, 13 assumes facts not in evidence, and then I went on and made a 14 speech about why. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We've all been lawyers for a long 16 time. We -- 17 MR. SUN: And so I'm trying to keep it within the 18 framework that I believe you are operating under. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We know -- in all due respect to Mr. 20 Sun, who is not a unique person, we're not singling him out, 21 but lawyers all have their bag of tricks. Another one is if 22 you remember, I mean, that's a classic. We've heard that 23 throughout here, too. So I'm asking that those kinds of 24 things just not happen. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. You have a right to 176 1 make an objection. Let me rule on them as they arise. 2 Let's keep going. Come on. We're wasting time. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 4 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: 10. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: 10. 7 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 10 8 was marked for identification.) 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q This is a document entitled Chung Exhibit 10, 11 "Johnny Chung's tale of cash, access." It's that Tom Brokaw 12 interview. It's an article based on it written by NBC News, 13 a Julie Huang, quite coincidentally, and turning your 14 attention to this page -- it's the page that's styled -- it's 15 one of three pages, "A glance at Johnny Chung's donations to 16 the Democratic National Committee and other accounts 17 affiliated with the Democrats." 18 And it goes through your donations starting on 19 August 1, 1994, where you gave 10,000 August 1, 1994, the 20 same date $1000 for your daughter. 21 October 22, 1994, $3000 to Friends of Kathleen 22 Brown, the Democratic candidate for governor of California. 23 You did make that contribution? 24 A I did. 25 Q December 3, 1994, $40,000 to the DNC for Hillary 177 1 Clinton's birthday party in Los Angeles. 2 A That's correct. 3 Q December 19, 1994, you made a contribution of 4 $40,000 to the DNC for the White House Christmas party. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Who solicited you for that contribution? 7 A Which one? 8 Q The $40,000 for the White House Christmas party? 9 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this 10 line of questioning as there's no linkage between this and 11 any matters relating to any Commerce Department matters and 12 therefore I would object to this line of questioning as 13 irrelevant and outside the scope. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we're getting to that. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. Overruled. Overruled. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Who solicited you, if anyone, for that $40,000? 18 A Richard Sullivan. 19 Q Now, in the context of Richard Sullivan's 20 solicitations for that money, was there anyone else that you 21 had contact with at the DNC or the White House over the 22 contributions? 23 A David Mercer. David Mercer. 24 Q And why was Mr. Mercer in contact with you? 25 A He was the original DNC people I know at that 48th 178 1 birthday for the President of the United States. Yes. 2 Q And during these -- I take it you had conversations 3 with Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Mercer that led up to the 4 contributions? 5 A That I don't know, but somehow, some way, David 6 Mercer didn't contact me and begin to have Richard Sullivan 7 to contact with me and then I tried to contact with him, too, 8 for the people I wanted to deal business with, Haomen Beer, 9 and to work with them and then I tried to get him what I call 10 wish list to go into the White House and I call Richard 11 Sullivan, how can we get in there, and he told me that there 12 is one opportunity to go to meet with the Vice President and 13 also that called Business Leadership Forum and I did talk to 14 you this early morning, those beer company, they set out all 15 the beer on the floor, in the lobby of the hotel and that was 16 the situation. 17 Q But did they say to you that if you make these 18 contributions you'll not only get a benefit in going to these 19 various events but it will help you generally in your 20 relationship with the Clinton administration? 21 MR. SUN: Objection. Vague as to time. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Not at that time. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Not at that time? 179 1 A No. 2 Q That was later? 3 A Not at that time. 4 Q Those statements were made later? 5 A I'm sorry? 6 Q Those kinds of statements were made later? 7 A Those kind of understanding was made clearly to 8 understand later on. 9 Q And Mr. Sullivan made you understand that later on. 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And Mr. Mercer. 12 A I did not contact with Mr. Mercer any more from 13 that point. 14 Q On March 9, 1995, you made another $50,000 15 contribution to the DNC with regard to a visit to the White 16 House of the Chinese delegation, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q So up to that point in time, you had made roughly 19 $150,000 worth of contributions. 20 A I'm sorry, I didn't add it up. Is that -- 21 Q Well, it's less than that, but I'm just saying 22 roughly -- 50 and 40 is 90, 40 is 130, 133, 134, 144 -- 23 $144,000. 24 A As the records say, I stand behind that. 25 Q Now, you viewed that as a lot of money, didn't you? 180 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you expected something in exchange. 3 A I was doing my business. As I said it to the 4 Congress, I am doing my business, part of my consulting 5 business at the same time, but I can clearly tell you that 6 sometimes I lose money, too. 7 Q You didn't get your money's worth. 8 A This is the -- I take the blame, but I didn't take 9 any credit at all. This -- 10 Q Right. But -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please let the witness finish, 12 Mr. Klayman. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. Sure. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead, finish, Mr. Chung. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Go ahead, finish. 16 THE WITNESS: This March 9th delegation, people 17 coming from China and also we wanted to please them because 18 they are the high ranking business leaders. The only thing I 19 know is I spent a lot of money to entertaining them and 20 taking care of them, escorting them to be co-host to them. 21 They originally was invited by the United States Chamber of 22 Commerce. And I wanted to please them, try to get to know 23 more people, business people in China. 24 Later on, after two month after this event, the 25 chairman of the Chamber of Commerce of China, the head of 181 1 this delegation, he retire. He is gone. We spent a lot of 2 money for him and he is gone. Up to today, I am still taking 3 a lot of heat, a lot of the heat for that. People say he is 4 an advisor -- I didn't know that. And sometimes businessmen, 5 you make some monies and then you lose some monies. And then 6 you take a plan. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Well, the answer, therefore, is yes, you expected 9 something in exchange. 10 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: When you say something exchanged, you 13 mean money for access? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: I expect that. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Yes. And you expected favors, correct? 18 A If you want to say favor to take a picture with the 19 President or the high ranking officer, Larry, yes. That's 20 all the purpose in my mind. 21 Q Well, access is no good unless you get something 22 from the access. That's your understanding, correct? 23 A My own interpretation, access is to take a picture 24 with the President of the United States and to tour them 25 around inside the White House. That's my honest thinking on 182 1 access. 2 Q But you also understood that for $144,000 that this 3 was a kind of down payment in case you needed something 4 later, too, correct? 5 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I object to this line of 6 inquiry. I fail to see its connection with the Department of 7 Commerce. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: Let me answer the question. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. I can make it more simple, if 11 you want. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I think I can answer this one. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't take down payment or 15 anything, I take it one payment each time for each favor or 16 each event I go, that's what I say. I don't understand the 17 way of down payment. 18 I go to see them for the purpose I think it's good 19 for my business purpose, for the people I bring over, how 20 much will be the price donated, I decided how much amount, 21 when and how. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Well, you're a businessman. 24 A Yes. 25 Q And you're a good businessman, correct? 183 1 A My mom say I'm not. 2 Q Well, you think you're a good one, right? Now, you 3 understand -- 4 A Well, I won't answer the question. 5 MR. SUN: Move to strike. Non-responsive. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Take the Fifth Amendment on that. 7 THE WITNESS: No. No. No. My mom -- there are 8 two women who know my life in and out, my mom and my wife. 9 Both of them say I'm not a good one, so I decide I am not a 10 good one. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But you understand from being a businessman what 13 the concept of good will is. You've heard of good will. 14 A Yes. 15 Q That's building up a type of credit, correct? 16 A I think that. Yes. 17 Q Okay. Now, it was your understanding that when you 18 made these contributions you were building good will with the 19 administration. 20 A Good credit. Good credit. And that's why I say 21 that I am not a good businessman. I always keep my promise. 22 Sometimes people don't. 23 Q Now, turn to Exhibit 15 of Exhibit 4. Have you 24 seen this document before? 25 A Yes. 184 1 Q You received this from somebody at the Democratic 2 National Committee before you went to this Hillary Rodham 3 Clinton birthday luncheon event on December 3, 1994? 4 A I am not the right person for you to answer. That 5 would be my general manager. I don't -- Larry, I don't open 6 my mail or doing that routine job as of that time. 7 Q Now, at this luncheon event, did you have any 8 conversations with Mrs. Clinton? 9 A On the 48th birthday? 10 Q Yes. 11 A On the 48th birthday. 12 Q Well, you did. Was there anything else that you 13 discussed with her at the 48th birthday you didn't tell us 14 about? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you have any conversations with Mrs. Clinton at 17 this luncheon event on December 3, 1994? 18 A At this event? This event, right? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes. 21 Q And what conversation did you have? 22 A How are you, this is my mom, this is my wife, my 23 daughter. We all took a picture together. At the open 24 statement in the -- how do you call -- the -- when she making 25 the open statement, she also recognized me and my company 185 1 because we are talking about -- she was talking about the 2 information superhighway and election. 3 The best recollection I have, she was mentioning 4 about my name, Johnny know better than anyone else because of 5 fax broadcasting service, kind of really make me feel good 6 about this note. 7 Q And she told you that she knew that you had gone on 8 the trade trip to China? 9 A We didn't mention that. I'm sorry, we didn't 10 mention that. 11 Q Did you mention that to her? 12 A No. No. No. I don't. 13 Q Was there anybody else that you talked to at that 14 luncheon from the White House, December 3rd, Hillary's 15 birthday party? 16 A Only the first lady and Richard Sullivan and then 17 also DNC temporary chairwoman, Debra DeLee, if I mentioned 18 the right name, Debra DeLee. 19 Q D-e-l-e-e? 20 A Yes. And that's it. That's it. Larry, every time 21 when my mom and my wife is around, I am busy to them than 22 anyone else. I want to please my mom and I want to please my 23 wife, too, okay? 24 Q Did you discuss with Mr. Sullivan any future 25 campaign contributions or activities at that meeting? 186 1 A At that meeting? 2 Q Yes. 3 A No. No. 4 Q During this period, did you get to know someone by 5 the name of Ari Swiller? 6 A Not yet. 7 Q Not yet? 8 A Un-uh. 9 Q Did you get to know anyone by the name of Eric 10 Silden by the time of this meeting? 11 A Not yet. Not yet. At the -- I come to know Eric 12 Silden after that March 9, 1995 radio address, okay? 13 Q Okay. Now, let's back up. August 27th through 14 September 3rd, China trade mission, Department of Commerce. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Before that trade mission, had you ever requested 17 of anyone an opportunity to meet Ron Brown? 18 A No. I tried to contact by myself -- not only that, 19 I know nobody in this town and as the chairman and CEO of 20 Automatic Intelligent System, I tried to promote my business 21 from one department to another department. I tried to make a 22 lot of phone calls to do my promotion. I called different 23 people. Not very successful. 24 Q You were trying to get to meet him. 25 A I tried to get all of -- everybody I can, but I did 187 1 met with Ron Brown back all the way to 1992, on November 20, 2 1992 at Little Rock, Arkansas. When we were talking early 3 this morning, there is a small business conference, then 4 governor of Arkansas, President-elect Clinton, ready to come 5 to Washington, D.C., there was one conference there, and I 6 have the opportunity of meeting Ron Brown in the lobby of the 7 Excelsior Hotel in Little Rock, Arkansas and we took a 8 picture. And a business card exchange. Period. And at that 9 time, I believe he is still DNC chairman. 10 Q Did he tell you that some day he's going to try to 11 help you with your business? 12 A No. And I was nobody. 13 Q Now, up to the point you went on the China trade 14 mission, August 27th, did you meet Ron Brown before you went 15 on the trade mission? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you meet him during the trade mission? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. Now, you took the flight to China. 20 A Correct. 21 Q You had a conversation with a businessman on the 22 plane, you testified to that. 23 A Yes. 24 Q Who warned you about the Chinese. 25 A Yes. That kind of warning is kind of businessmen 188 1 talking, okay? 2 Q Do you remember who that was? 3 A No. 4 Q Was there anyone on that plane who later showed up 5 on the trade mission? 6 A No. No. 7 Q The plane lands -- 8 A Can I say something, Larry? 9 Q Sure. 10 A I also begin to warn other people that go to China 11 be careful. Since then, I have been in and out of China. 12 Q Since this whole scandal exploded, now you're 13 warning people? 14 A No, no, no. I mean warning people to say don't go 15 through the alley, don't eat something, I was sick. Yes. 16 That kind of stuff. 17 Q Now, your plane lands, you've made arrangements to 18 have Mr. Kearney pick you up. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Does he pick you up at the airport? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Is he with anybody? 23 A With a driver. Mercedes-Benz. Two American flag. 24 Q A U.S. Government driver? 25 A No. No. No. Because I can see the license is 189 1 Chinese private -- private license plate. Yes. 2 Q And it's got an American flag on the front and a 3 Chinese flag? 4 A That is very -- that's nothing unusual in China. 5 Q Well, I'm not asking whether it's unusual, just 6 whether there was a flag -- 7 A I was very impressed, the first time I see that, 8 okay? But later on, I begin to understand in China, well, if 9 you are American businessman or anyone, you can put American 10 flag on your car. 11 Q Do you know who paid for that driver to take Mr. 12 Kearney to pick you up? 13 A I do not know. 14 Q Did he ever tell you that? 15 A No. The only way I can -- I can think of would be 16 Mr. Trie's car or Mr. Trie's friend's car to pick me up. 17 Q Do you remember the name of the driver? 18 A No. He was Chinese. 19 Q So they pick you up, just the two of them? 20 A Yes. With my luggage. 21 Q Okay. And what does Mr. Kearney say to you when 22 you see him at the airport? 23 A Welcome to Beijing, what do you want to do now? I 24 am so hungry, get me to the restaurant, I want to eat, that 25 was a long flight. 190 1 Q That's you talking. 2 A That's what I'm talking. 3 Q And Mr. Kearney says welcome to Beijing, what do 4 you want to do now and you say I want to eat. 5 A I want to eat. 6 Q Okay. And does Mr. Kearney say anything else? 7 A Let me take you to the restaurant and get something 8 to eat first. 9 Q And does he tell you where he's taking you? 10 A No, it's a Chinese restaurant on the way to Beijing 11 City, halfway between the airport and Beijing City. 12 Q Does he tell you if anybody's going to meet you 13 there at the restaurant? 14 A No. 15 Q When you get to the restaurant, are there other 16 people that are there? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Who is there? 19 A I see the Little Rock mayor, I don't remember the 20 name again, I think you have the name. I think Charlie 21 Trie's wife. I don't remember -- Wang Mei. Wang Mei, that's 22 her Chinese name, Wang Mei Trie. And then there were some 23 more people there, the Chinese people. 24 Q What do you mean by Chinese people? 25 A Maybe a server. 191 1 Q You didn't find that unusual? 2 A No, no, no. Well, it's unusual. 3 Q It was? 4 A It was unusual. 5 Q Why? 6 A I was looking for the Chinese restaurant and to eat 7 and there is a small room on the other side -- what do you 8 call -- a restaurant karaoke bar and I was looking forward to 9 eating something. Yes. And then there was Charlie Trie's 10 wife is singing a song, and then the Little Rock Arkansas 11 mayor was singing a song and Jude Kearney introduced me to 12 them. 13 Q They were all singing karaoke? 14 A Everybody is sitting down in the karaoke. And then 15 I was looking forward to eat something and then, well, I 16 thought, this is very unusual, restaurant with another 17 separate room of karaoke. 18 Q So I take it at some point that you all sat down 19 and started to talk to each other. 20 A Yes. The only conversation I have with the Little 21 Rock, Arkansas mayor is I am doing my fax broadcasting, if 22 you are ever thinking about you are going to reelect, you 23 better use my service. And we have business card exchange. 24 I take every possibility for my business promotion. 25 Q Did the Little Rock mayor say why he was on that 192 1 trade trip? 2 A Not much. Not much. My best recollection is they 3 are doing some kind of sister city something, that's all I 4 know. And, Larry, I was so tired, I don't really care, I was 5 ready to eat my dinner, go back to my hotel to shave and then 6 do whatever I can. 7 Q During that dinner, what did Mr. Charlie Trie say? 8 A Mr. Charlie Trie didn't show up. 9 Q What did Mr. Trie's wife say? 10 A Welcome to China and then my name is Wang Mei. And 11 she was singing a song, Chinese song, which is when we was 12 kids in Taiwan, I said, oh, I remember this song but I 13 haven't heard this song for a long, long time. That's whole 14 entire conversation. 15 Q Well, during that meeting, Mrs. Trie told you what 16 Mr. Trie was doing in China? 17 A Did Mrs. Trie told me -- 18 Q Yes. Or did Mr. Kearney or anyone tell you what 19 Charlie Trie was doing in China? 20 A No. But originally, I wanted to introduce you to 21 Charlie Trie, but he cannot make it tonight here, but maybe 22 some time tomorrow I can introduce you to him. 23 Q And during that dinner conversation, did Mr. 24 Kearney tell you what the plans were for the next day? 25 A No, not yet. I say I want to go back to the hotel, 193 1 whatever hotel is. My luggage in the car, I was so tired, I 2 want to back to my hotel I have my meal. 3 Q So you go back to the hotel. 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what hotel was that? 6 A It was the China Great Wall Hotel. 7 Q And -- 8 A By the way, I didn't have a good meal over there. 9 Later on, I eat my dinner, real dinner, at the hotel. First 10 trip. 11 Q That's why it was unusual, you were in the karaoke 12 bar. Okay. Now, when you went, you slept that night and 13 what happened the next day? Who did you meet with? 14 A That's not what happened. 15 Q Excuse me? 16 A That's not what happened. 17 Q Okay. Tell me what happened. 18 A I went back -- I check into my hotel room, I went 19 back to my room and then shaved. Again, I am so hungry and 20 then there is a 24-hour cafe inside the hotel. I invited 21 Jude Kearney to join me. Obviously I cannot sleep because 22 the times different. First time for me to go back, going 23 back to Asia. And I cannot sleep, it's our daytime. And 24 then the only thing I can do is just stay awake and also get 25 some good food for myself. 194 1 And I remember I have some conversation with 2 Mr. Kearney when I was eating and talking. I say, well, I'm 3 not official member, but this is my first trip, what shall I 4 do. Can I join to this delegation somehow, some way, at a 5 different event? 6 And then he said, well, maybe I can arrange some 7 event for you. And then he said, well, tomorrow I will -- 8 not tomorrow, it is today, we are talking about 2:00, 3:00 in 9 the morning, and he said later today I will introduce you to 10 Mr. Charlie Trie. And then I went back to my room, I don't 11 think it's so much detail necessary, I cannot get sleep. 12 Later on, I try to find the hotel doctor to give me 13 some pill and then they give me Chinese pill, I cannot even 14 believe I can take it, so I didn't take it. Then I was awake 15 all day, all early morning, walking around in the hotel 16 checking out what kind of hotel it is. And remember this is 17 my first trip and that my experience in the airport where 18 that people ask me you are Chinese, how come you don't have a 19 Chinese name in your passport, that kind of reaction keep 20 coming back to my mind. 21 And I was totally awake until maybe now about 22 10:00 and then I begin to feel I like to sleep at that time. 23 Daytime, nighttimes different. 24 I don't remember if somebody else wake me up or I 25 wake up and then we met Sunday afternoon and then Jude 195 1 Kearney introduced Charlie Trie to me at the lobby cafe of 2 the Great Wall Hotel. That was it. 3 Q Okay. And what happened during that introduction? 4 What was discussed? 5 A How are you, how are you to everybody, then we 6 begin to talk to each other in Chinese and then my name is so 7 and so, his name is so and so, business card exchange. And 8 then you don't know too much about China, what kind of 9 business are you doing. That pretty much it. 10 I take my position as American businessman, sit 11 back, I don't easily discuss what kind of business I am doing 12 because I consider that it's still very advanced -- advanced 13 ideas of the fax broadcasting. 14 Q You didn't want to give people too much 15 information. 16 A Too much information about what kind of idea I've 17 got in my mind for the business. 18 Q So they can steal the idea. 19 A Yes. And then that will -- that's every time, 20 American businessman, very cautious. And I try to -- two -- 21 two businessmen talking the first time, I don't think we can 22 get in too much detail, just pretty much, you know, who is 23 who and that was the whole entire conversation. 24 Q I take it you asked Mr. Trie why he was in China. 25 A I'm sorry? 196 1 Q You asked Mr. Trie why he was in China, why he went 2 on the trade trip. 3 A Why he was in China? 4 Q Yes. You asked him, did you not, why are you here 5 on this trade mission? 6 A I know one thing, the conversation come up is he is 7 not also the official member. 8 Q How did that come up? 9 A I say I'm not official member and he says so am I. 10 And that's it. 11 Q And he said I'm not official either? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. Did you ask him, well, how did you get on 14 this trip if you're not official? 15 A No. No. I think I take it as maybe Jude Kearney 16 already told him. 17 Q You thought Kearney arranged for him to go on the 18 trip, too? 19 A No, he didn't say that. I said Jude had arranged 20 me to come over here. That's what I know. 21 Q And did Mr. Trie tell you -- 22 A Larry, as a businessman, you don't usually go that 23 much in detail to ask people that kind of question, 24 especially either way, American-Chinese businessmen or 25 Chinese businessmen, first time meeting, we will feel that 197 1 kind of insult if you get too detailed. I just try to tell 2 you exactly what happened. 3 Q Okay. It appeared to you that Charlie Trie was 4 very familiar with Jude Kearney. 5 A Oh, yes. 6 Q And it appeared to you that they were good friends. 7 A Yes. 8 Q Did the two of them say anything during that 9 meeting to each other? 10 A Not too much. Pretty much is I introduced 11 myself -- Jude Kearney introduced me to Charlie Trie, Charlie 12 Trie introduced himself to me and then we begin to know who 13 is who. And the way we communicated, it's very basic. We 14 are two different type of Chinese-American. 15 Q How so? 16 A Two different type. 17 Q In what way? 18 A Mentality, the way of talking. I think I am more 19 polite. I don't want to use the words more educated. 20 Q Well, did you come to understand at any point why 21 Mr. Trie was on the trade mission to China? 22 A I don't know. Larry, I don't know at that time. 23 Q You learned later, however. 24 A Learned that later. Yes. 25 Q And -- 198 1 A Very later, after all the scandal broke and 2 everything. 3 Q Were there any arrangements made at that 4 conversation for either you or Mr. Trie or Mr. Kearney to 5 attend any trade mission events? 6 A There is only two event, as I told you, as we've 7 been talking. We wanted to go to the breakfast meeting and 8 what they call you thank you party in the night. 9 Q Both of you decided to go to that? 10 A No. No. 11 Q You and Mr. Trie. 12 A No. No. It was really kind of the whole entire 13 event comes out, I always go back, check it out with Jude 14 Kearney. At one time, I asked Melinda Yee about how can we 15 get in and I remember I only get to these two event. 16 Q Now, when you met with Mr. Trie in the cafe with 17 Mr. Kearney, some people were taking some notes down? 18 A No. No. Larry, normally Chinese people handshake 19 each other, talk each other, they don't take American way of 20 taking notes. Besides, I told you today, after 14 years old, 21 I never want to take any note. 22 Q Melinda Yee, was she in the cafe with you? 23 A No. 24 Q Anyone else? 25 A Only three of us. 199 1 Q All right. Well, what happened after that? 2 A I went back to my room and sleep because it is my 3 nighttime. And then I wake up in the middle of the night. 4 That was second day. And I will keep checking up with them 5 what can I join them for those kind of event. I don't 6 remember which day, maybe the second day or third day I went 7 to the Tiananmen Square with the taxi I told you, okay? And 8 I did contact with them routinely, try to leave a message to 9 find out what event should I go. That's best recollection I 10 can give to you. 11 Q And who was they you tried to find out where to go? 12 A Jude Kearney or Melinda Yee. Yes. 13 Q Had you met Melinda Yee at that point? 14 A At the -- yes. Passing by on the Great Wall of 15 China, Great Wall hotel lobby. I recognized her. I said, 16 well -- 17 Q And you had some discussions. 18 A Yes. I say, well, I'm here, this is my first trip 19 to come to China. 20 Q And what did she say to you? 21 A I say, well, if I can go to some event, would you 22 help me and she said okay, I will. That's it. 23 Q Did she say what events? 24 A I don't know exactly what she said, but I can give 25 you the best recollection I have is maybe the thank you 200 1 party. I'm sorry. Thank you party or the breakfast for the 2 late Secretary Ron Brown's speech to the American businessmen 3 in Beijing. 4 Q Right. In the last two years, have you spoken with 5 Melinda Yee? 6 A No. 7 Q Does Melinda Yee know your lawyer, Mr. Sun? 8 MR. SUN: Objection to the extent it calls for 9 speculation. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Has Mr. Sun ever told you that he knows Melinda 13 Yee? 14 MR. SUN: Objection to the extent that it calls for 15 attorney-client privilege -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Why would that be attorney-client 18 privileged, Mr. Sun? 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's not so much that as I don't 20 see what point it has. What's the point of this, 21 Mr. Klayman? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, he may have some information. 23 She's a key actor here. 24 MR. SUN: I don't have any objection to him 25 inquiring about Ms. Yee -- 201 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you know Ms. Yee? 2 MR. SUN: I'm not under deposition. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go on. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer. I don't. 5 I never talked to her, so I don't know. 6 MR. SUN: You've answered the question. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, wait a second. Why are you 8 telling your client -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's keep going. 10 Please. 11 THE WITNESS: What is the question? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: There's one coming. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you know -- and I think I'm entitled to this, 15 Your Honor -- whether your lawyer has been in contact with 16 Melinda Yee in the last two years? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q One way or the other? 19 A One way or the other, I don't know. 20 Q Okay. Has she ever tried to contact you in the 21 last few years? Melinda Yee? 22 A How many last year? 23 Q Two. 24 A No. 25 Q Has anyone tried to contact you to give you a 202 1 message or tell you anything about Ms. Yee? 2 A No. No. 3 Q Are you aware that Ms. Yee is herself under 4 investigation? 5 A I read it from the newspaper. I read it from the 6 newspaper and the only one reason to pay my attention is not 7 Melinda Yee, it's the mayor of San Francisco. 8 Q Willie Brown? 9 A Willie Brown. Then the speaker of the assembly of 10 California, he is my former client, my customer. 11 Q Willie Brown. 12 A Willie Brown. Then he was the speaker of the 13 California assembly. And then in the newspaper, Chinese 14 newspaper, it mentioned about Melinda Yee is working for the 15 mayor of San Francisco, I say okay. But the mayor doesn't 16 use my service, obviously, I don't contact him. 17 Q Has anyone tried to get you to go on a trade 18 mission of the mayor overseas? 19 A No. 20 Q Solicited any contributions? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you spoken to anyone about Melinda Yee in the 23 last two years? 24 A No. It doesn't have too much connection -- 25 Q Okay. So you saw Melinda Yee before you had -- was 203 1 it before or after you had this meeting with Charlie Trie in 2 the cafe of the Great Wall Hotel? Before or after? 3 A After. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Okay. If I made a mistake, I will tell you the 6 best recollection I can give it to you, okay? Could be 7 after, 70 percent; could be before, 30 percent. I cannot 8 really recollect. This is long time ago. 9 Q After these encounters with Melinda Yee and Charlie 10 Trie and Jude Kearney, did someone contact you to inform you 11 what events you were invited to? 12 A The other way around. 13 Q Okay. 14 A I asked them what kind event should I go, what kind 15 event can I go. And then they told me there is two event you 16 can go. Okay. And I did not remember exactly how they said. 17 The best recollection I can give it to you is the breakfast 18 and the thank you party. 19 Q I'm going to show you -- we've already marked it as 20 Exhibit 2 and the very first document says January 6, 1994. 21 A Okay. 22 Q Exhibit 2. These are the documents that you 23 produced this morning. It's written to Melinda Yee. 24 A Yes. 25 Q U.S. Department of Commerce from Johnny Chung, 204 1 Chairman and CEO. 2 A Mm-hmm. Okay. 3 Q It says, "Dear Melinda, Thank you for your greeting 4 card. I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I was 5 out of town all December. I want to thank you for all your 6 help and support in the past year. 7 "Have a wonderful 1995 and I look forward to 8 working closely with you again. With best wishes." 9 You wrote this letter, correct? 10 A Yes. Can I see that? Along with the signature? 11 Q Brian has that. Your attorney has that. 12 A Yes. I think I asked my general manager, Irene Wu, 13 to write this one for me because this is not my signature. 14 You can see slash I-W. 15 Q All right. That's fine. But you endorsed sending 16 this letter to Ms. Yee. 17 A Yes. Yes. Yes. 18 Q Okay. And what did you mean by "I want to thank 19 you for all your help and support in the past year"? What 20 was the help and support Ms. Yee provided in the past year? 21 A This is the year, correct? 22 Q Yes, January 6, 1994. 23 MR. SUN: The reason why Mr. Chung has asked that 24 question is because down there it says 1995. 25 THE WITNESS: 1995. 205 1 MR. SUN: That may be a typo. 2 THE WITNESS: This is a typed error. I don't know 3 Melinda Yee before -- I mean after that Taiwanese passport. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Okay. So January 6, let's say it's 1995. There's 6 a typo, correct? 7 A Yes. Yes. 8 Q This is written a few months after the China trade 9 trip. 10 A Yes. 11 Q It's written after the First Lady's birthday party 12 and your $144,000 of contributions, correct? 13 A It says thank you to her about the Taiwanese 14 passport event, I know her, and also the event I was there in 15 China, meet that Beijing business mission and she helped me 16 to set it up, either with breakfast or either with thank you 17 party dinners. 18 Q What are thank you party dinners? 19 A Well, thank you party dinner, the Ron Brown dinner, 20 Secretary Ron Brown say thank you to the Chinese government 21 and Chinese businessmen for that delegation and everybody can 22 join them. 23 Q Which took place on the trade trip in the fall of 24 '94. 25 A That's correct. At Beijing. 206 1 Q And what else were you thanking her for, for her 2 support? 3 A And then my best recollection is I tried to very 4 hard to get the business of the Department of Commerce to use 5 my fax broadcasting service and then I did occur to meet with 6 her once at her department and tried to show her my brochure 7 and everything and that was it. 8 Q And you had met with her in 1994? 9 A The best way I can say it's that Taiwanese 10 passport, the Taiwanese-American passport event, and some 11 time for the China mission over there in Beijing and maybe 12 then later on we have encountered, I tried to ask her for 13 anyone I should know for Department of Commerce who can 14 decide to use my fax broadcasting service. 15 Q Was that before or after you went to China? 16 A I do not remember. 17 Q In and around that time period? 18 A Yes. Yes. And then that's the only three 19 encounter I got, the best I can remember. 20 Q Okay. And during the meeting with Ms. Yee at the 21 Commerce Department, you told her that you had donated to the 22 Democratic Party? 23 A I don't remember I say that, but I did -- very 24 impressed -- at their office, I saw a lot of high ranking 25 officers say thank you and with the signature on the 207 1 pictures. 2 Q She had a lot of pictures of Clinton administration 3 officials in her office? 4 A Yes. On her desk. 5 Q And that impressed you? 6 A For a lot of people, new kid in town, in 7 Washington, D.C., it will. Yes. 8 Q And you told Ms. Yee during that meeting at the 9 Commerce Department that you had met the President and 10 Mrs. Clinton? 11 A I don't remember that one, that I told her that. 12 Q You told her that you had received letters from 13 Mrs. Clinton about your fax business? 14 A I could -- I could -- because -- 15 Q In fact -- 16 A Allow me, please. 17 Q Sure. 18 A I had a brochure with the latest -- with my 19 company's promotional material, I normally have that blue 20 color on the cover and I pass it out, it could be there. 21 Q And this gets back to what you said before, that 22 letter from Mrs. Clinton was very valuable because you could 23 show that to people. 24 A Yes. 25 Q And that would impress people. 208 1 A Yes. 2 Q That you had the support of Mrs. Clinton. 3 A That's correct. 4 Q For your fax business. 5 A That mean a lot to me at that time. 6 Q For your fax business. 7 A For my business. For my fax. Yes. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me, Mr. Klayman. It's five 9 to one. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask a few more questions, if I 11 can. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you ever received from Melinda Yee a 14 solicitation to contribute to a Melinda Yee legal defense 15 fund? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know of any such fund? 18 A No, I don't. No, I don't. 19 Q If I was to tell you that that solicitation said 20 that she needs to collect money to protect herself from 21 Judicial Watch, would that ring a bell? 22 A I know Judicial Watch through my wife. 23 Q Your wife likes Judicial Watch? 24 A Well, I should answer this question? 25 MR. SUN: If you can. 209 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, when we were chit-chatting 2 before, he told me about it. 3 THE WITNESS: My wife like Judicial Watch and like 4 you very much. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Perhaps on that note, a ringing 7 endorsement, Mr. Klayman, we'll stop so Mr. Sun and Mr. Chung 8 can catch their plane. 9 Now, I take it your position, Mr. Sun, would be 10 that you're going to file a motion to terminate this. 11 MR. SUN: Well, Your Honor, I cannot believe that 12 Mr. Klayman, given what I believe the subject matter is in 13 this litigation, would have five or six more hours of 14 questioning. 15 If there was some wrap-up stuff that he wants to 16 ask, that he could somehow work some framework on, I would 17 endeavor to work with the Court and with Mr. Klayman on doing 18 so in an efficient way. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I suspect you have several more 20 hours to go. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, we do. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: There's just no way to wrap it up 23 quickly, so I think you've got to make a motion. 24 MR. SUN: Very well, Your Honor. Let me consider 25 that. I'll talk to Mr. Klayman, maybe we can try to work out 210 1 something. If not, I'll make a motion. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I'm here available, too, if 3 you'd like to have a conference call at any time with the 4 four of us. 5 MR. SUN: Your Honor, does it have to be something 6 in writing or something? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, I mean, I'd like you to work 8 it out, but I'm just saying if you are going to move to 9 terminate, you probably should do that in writing because 10 Ms. Braswell may join you. Or you may do it jointly, I don't 11 know. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: We are presuming things. However, I 13 remain an optimist because I do remember Mr. Sun saying, and 14 we appreciate it very much his courtesy in saying that, that 15 because he wanted to do it after Congress had had their 16 hearing, that he would work for us if we couldn't finish 17 today, if we had to reconvene this. 18 Now, we've offered in the course of our 19 conversations off the record this morning to pay his expenses 20 and Mr. Chung's to bring him back. We just think it's a lot 21 more efficient and simple with you here and him here, 22 Mr. Chung, where we have all these documents -- we have three 23 boxes of documents. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I appreciate that. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: If we had to go any other route, as 211 1 suggested, where I would be out in California with them and 2 you here, then we'd have to copy all that twice. So we're 3 willing to be flexible in terms of the timing, but I do 4 remember his gracious statements that if we couldn't finish 5 today that we would continue. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, Ms. Braswell wants to be 7 heard as well. 8 MS. BRASWELL: I don't remember those statements at 9 all, Your Honor. I don't know at this point whether or not 10 we would independently move to terminate the deposition or 11 not. I need to consider that and consult with the agency. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 13 MR. SUN: I'll just state my position, Your Honor. 14 I'm going to look at the motion that Mr. Klayman and Judicial 15 Watch made to take Mr. Chung's depo and see if I think maybe 16 he's had an adequate opportunity. I will try to be fair to 17 Mr. Klayman and his client on this and I'll consult with my 18 client. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, how about this, so 20 Mr. Klayman isn't left hanging over Newark, talking about 21 airplanes, would you please let him -- 22 Would you, Ms. Braswell, let Mr. Klayman know a 23 week from today, both of you let him know what your positions 24 are going to be? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. And let me say for the record 212 1 here that we have -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, nobody's taking anything 3 down -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand, but -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me ask, Mr. Holley, are you 6 still on? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: You are on, aren't you? 8 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: We understand that Mr. Chung learned 10 English throughout the course of his citizenship here and 11 it's a little more difficult for him. 12 MR. SUN: He actually learned English in Taiwan. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: In Taiwan. Fortunately, I have had 14 experience with people from other countries, but it still 15 slows it down in the process and we want to get his words and 16 I haven't tried to cut off the responses, sometimes they are 17 long narratives. So we're here to work with him and this is 18 a unique witness who is from our perspective the only witness 19 who has come forward in this case who is willing to talk 20 openly about what has happened. 21 So he's a very unique and important witness and we 22 appreciate his testimony, we appreciate Mr. Sun, and we would 23 work with them to set this up at a mutually convenient time 24 and place. And we would offer to pay the expenses. And it 25 was my understanding that that's how we were going to 213 1 proceed, that's how we prepared for this deposition and we're 2 taking it methodically. this is a unique opportunity. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. Well, we've got to 4 get them on a plane. Let's all agree to talk within the next 5 week. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 7 1:02. 8 (Whereupon, at 1:02 p.m., the deposition of 9 JOHNNY CHUNG was adjourned.) 10 * * * * * 11 I have read the foregoing pages, which are a 12 correct transcript of the answers given by me to the 13 questions therein recorded. 14 Deponent ____________________________________ 15 Date ____________________________________