IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. : 95-0133 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Washington, D.C. Thursday, May 13, 1999 Deposition of JOHNNY CHUNG a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, 3rd and Constitution, N.W., Washington, D.C. commencing at 7:50 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA UTGOFF BRASWELL, ESQ. Assistant United States Attorney U.S. Attorney's Office 555 Fourth Street, N.W. 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 ELISE PACKARD, ESQ. U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Deponent: BRIAN A. SUN, ESQ. O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun LLP 1000 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 700 Santa Monica, California 90401-1142 Also present: Thomas Fitton, President, Judicial Watch Jason Aldrich, Esq., Judicial Watch Mike Pendleton, Esq., Judicial Watch Stacey Cohen, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun LLP Bob Abernathy 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 5 CHUNG DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 1 Notice of deposition duces tecum and subpoena 7 No. 2 Documents produced by Mr. Sun on behalf of Mr. Chung 11 No. 3 Written testimony of Johnny Chung before Senate Government Reform Committee 15 No. 4 Documents compiled by Government Reform Committee 40 No. 5 Business Leadership Forum information 75 No. 6 Business Development Mission to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong 100 No. 7 Information regarding Associate Attorney General Raymond C. Fisher 116 No. 8 AISI brochure 133 No. 9 DNC Managing Trustee Events & Membership Requirements 143 No. 10 NBC news article "Johnny Chung's tale of cash, access" by Robert Windrem and Julie Huang 176 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is 3 the video deposition of Johnny Chung taken by the counsel 4 for the Plaintiff in the matter of Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 v. U.S. Department of Commerce held in the U.S. District 6 Court for the District of Columbia, Case No. 95-0133, held 7 in the chambers of Judge John Facciola at the U.S. District 8 Court for the District of Columbia, on this date, May 13, 9 1999 and at the time indicated on the video screen, which is 10 7:50 a.m. 11 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am the videographer. 12 The court reporter today is Rita Hemphill from the firm of 13 Diversified Reporting. 14 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, Chairman and General 16 Counsel of Judicial Watch. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. SUN: Brian Sun, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun on 19 behalf of Mr. Chung. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me also put on the record Mike 21 Pendleton and Jason Aldrich, attorneys, Judicial Watch, are 22 also present in the room. 23 MR. SUN: Also behalf of Mr. Chung is my legal 24 assistant, Stacey Cohen, and a friend of Mr. Chung's, Bob 25 Abernathy. 5 1 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the 2 U.S. Attorney's office, on behalf of the Department of 3 Commerce. 4 MS. PACKARD: Elise Packard, Office of General 5 Counsel, Department of Commerce. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter please 7 swear in the witness? 8 Whereupon, 9 JOHHNY CHUNG 10 was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn, 11 was examined and testified as follows: 12 THE COURT REPORTER: Please state your full name 13 for the record. 14 THE WITNESS: My name is Johnny Chung. I reside in 15 18401 Norwalk Boulevard, Artesia, California. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 17 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Chung, have you ever been deposed before? 20 In other words, has anyone ever taken your testimony? 21 Other than Congress just two days ago? 22 A The FBI, Department of Justice -- 23 MR. SUN: Grand jury. 24 THE WITNESS: Grand jury. 25 6 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You appeared before a grand jury. 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Have you ever appeared in any civil proceeding 5 before, not criminal, but civil? 6 MR. SUN: Do you understand his question? 7 Are you asking, Larry, if he's been deposed in any 8 civil proceeding? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 MR. SUN: He may have had some civil proceedings 12 before, but I don't think he's been deposed. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Aside from the sworn testimony that you provided on 15 Tuesday to the Government Reform Committee, has the 16 Government Reform Committee ever taken sworn testimony from 17 you under oath? 18 A That was yesterday? I mean, that was day before 19 yesterday? 20 Q Yes. 21 A Yes. 22 Q They have done that? 23 MR. SUN: Other than yesterday's testimony? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Other than two days ago, on Tuesday. 25 MR. SUN: He's asking you if you've been sworn 7 1 under oath prior -- 2 THE WITNESS: Day before yesterday. 3 MR. SUN: Other than that time. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 6 reporter to mark as Exhibit 1 to Mr. Chung's deposition. 7 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 1 8 was marked for identification.) 9 MR. SUN: By the way, to clarify the record, he has 10 met with staff of the Government Reform Committee, but he was 11 not under oath. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Exhibit 1, Mr. Chung, is a notice of deposition 14 duces tecum, which is lawyers' language for a notice for you 15 to appear today, and attached to that is a subpoena in this 16 lawsuit. 17 Have you seen these documents before? 18 A I did not, but my attorney -- my attorney told me 19 we already received. Yes. 20 Q But you've never seen the document before? 21 A No. This is the morning I see it, but I trust my 22 attorney. He told me that already. 23 Q The subpoena requires your bringing to this 24 deposition certain documents and things that are listed on 25 Appendix A to the subpoena. It says Appendix A at the top. 8 1 Do you see that, Appendix A? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Have you ever seen Appendix A before? 4 A I don't, but I trust my attorney. 5 Q Has anyone ever discussed what is requested in 6 Appendix A with you? 7 A No. I don't. 8 Q And I take it you've never searched for the 9 documents and things requested in Appendix A? 10 A No, I don't. But I already gave all of my 11 documentation to my attorney's office already. 12 MR. SUN: If it would help you, Mr. Klayman, what 13 we did was upon receipt of your subpoena, since my firm had 14 custody of Mr. Chung's documents, we endeavored to undertake 15 a search for documents that we thought might be responsive to 16 the categories listed in the subpoena. 17 For the record, I'm going to hand to you a set of 18 documents that I think is about -- oh, about a half inch 19 thick that we believe is responsive to this. 20 Your Honor, I have one copy. I apologize that I 21 only have two copies with me. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we can make some more. 23 How many do you need? 24 MS. BRASWELL: I just need one copy, if Your Honor 25 please. 9 1 MR. SUN: I apologize to the government. I had a 2 lot of documents that I had to bring on this trip. 3 (Pause.) 4 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll get back to these later. 5 For the moment, I'll just ask that we mark it as composite 6 Exhibit 2, the documents that have been produced today, and 7 I'll read the different documents into the record. 8 Composite Exhibit 2 consists of a letter of 9 January 6, 1994 to Melinda Yee and then there is a 10 Presidential Business Development Mission to Beijing, 11 Shanghai, Guangzhou and Hong Kong, the mission led by the 12 Honorable Ron Brown of August 27 to September 3, 1994. 13 There are two photographs, one with Mr. Chung 14 apparently and Ron Brown; one with Mr. Chung and Jude 15 Kearney. 16 There is a letter to Mr. Chung from Mickey Kantor, 17 U.S. Trade Representative, dated April 28, 1995. 18 A letter from Ron Brown to Mr. Chung dated July 28, 19 1995. 20 A letter from Ron Brown to Johnny Chung dated 21 February 14, 1995. 22 A letter dated February 14, 1996 from Ron Brown to 23 Johnny Chung. Attached to it is an Americas Business Forum 24 in Cartagena, Columbia March 18 to 20, 1996, a preliminary 25 program with a registration card attached. 10 1 Then there is a letter of February 14, 1996 from 2 Ronald Brown to Johnny Chung. 3 A fax transmittal sheet to Johnny Chung from the 4 International Business Consulting Company, 1010 Vermont 5 Avenue, which says from Department of Commerce re: Matchmaker 6 Mission. 7 A document attached to that from a Murray 8 Sanderford, Project Manager. 9 A Minority Business Trade and Development 10 Matchmaker 1996 brochure concerning Costa Rica and Honduras, 11 July 15 to 19, 1996 consisting of two pages. 12 A Minority Business Trade and Development 13 Matchmaker 1996 company information form. Attached to that 14 is a Minority Business Trade and Development Matchmaker trade 15 delegation to Costa Rica and Honduras, July 15 to 19, 1996. 16 It's called Market Briefs. 17 A Market Summary to Costa Rica, header Minority 18 Business and Trade Development Matchmaker 1996, consisting of 19 two pages. 20 A checklist for forum registration. 21 A letter from Melissa Moss to U.S. Delegation 22 Member dated June 5, 1995. 23 A fax from Kathy Kellogg, Office of Business 24 Liaison, U.S. Department of Commerce, to Mr. Johnny Chung. 25 A letter to Mr. Johnny Chung from Ronald H. Brown, 11 1 undated. 2 MR. SUN: I believe in the upper right-hand corner, 3 on my copy, there's a faint -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. June 20, 1995, the original 5 shows. We'll ask that it's permissible we substitute that. 6 Consisting of two pages and an attachment stating Strategic 7 Partners. 8 A registration form, Big Emerging Markets 9 Conference, U.S. Delegate Registration Form, July 7, 1995, 10 then a partial list of companies participating in BEM, Big 11 Emerging Markets, conference. 12 A draft of a document entitled "The Big Emerging 13 Markets Conference, Georgetown University Leavy Center, 14 Washington, D.C.," July 24th and 25th, consisting of ten 15 pages. 16 A letter from Ronald Brown to Johnny Chung dated 17 February 14, 1995. 18 A letter from Mary L. Good of the Department of 19 Commerce to Mr. Chung dated December 15, 1994. 20 And a letter of January 6, 1994 from Johnny Chung 21 to Melinda Yee. 22 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 2 23 was marked for identification.) 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Are these all the documents that your attorney is 12 1 producing, Mr. Chung, pursuant to the subpoena which was 2 served upon you? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you currently have any documents related to any 5 of your business activities at your office or at your house? 6 A Office? Most of them in office, I give it to my 7 attorney. 8 Q But I take your attorney did not search your office 9 in response to the subpoena which is Exhibit 1? 10 A I already handed all my documentation to my 11 attorneys since the day one when the campaign finance scandal 12 broke and also I take it to the FBI -- or let me repeat. I 13 voluntarily allowed the FBI to search my office voluntarily 14 and then so many documentation they took away from my office. 15 Yes. And then that's all documentation I have. 16 To answer your question, I hope I answered your 17 question. 18 Q From 1993 to present, have you ever used a 19 computer? 20 A My employee does for me. I am not putting any 21 computer writing or any e-mail. They asked me this question 22 before. 23 Q Have you ever used a laptop computer? 24 A I did use a laptop only for the Internet news. 25 Q Did you ever take a laptop computer on your foreign 13 1 travels? 2 A Never. 3 Q Has anyone searched your various computers in 4 response to the subpoena which is Exhibit 1? 5 A No. And one thing I would like to put it here is I 6 personally did not use that much in computer at all. The 7 only time I use computer is to go into the Internet news. 8 Period. 9 Q Now, you sometimes take notes, correct? Write 10 notes, write things down? 11 A They asked me the same question, too. I really 12 don't take notes. I just memorize here. 13 Q Well, do you record things. You have a list 14 sometimes of your activities so you remember what it is you 15 need to do? 16 A My general manager who had all my schedule, only 17 the schedule, but rarely I write on anything since I was 14. 18 I was punished by my teachers, so I remember everything in my 19 mind. 20 Q You were punished for writing things down or not 21 writing things down? 22 A Writing things down bad about my teachers. So 23 since that day, I don't write anything at all. 24 Q You wrote some nasty things about your teachers and 25 they punished you? 14 1 A When I was joking around with my teachers. So 2 since that I day, I don't take any note at all. 3 Q Have you ever written any nasty things about the 4 Democratic National Committee? 5 A I don't. I don't. 6 Q Or the Commerce Department trade missions? 7 A No, I don't. 8 Q Did anyone check these schedules before today? 9 A I'm sorry, I don't understand. 10 Q Did anyone check your schedules, what your 11 assistant keeps for you, in response to the subpoena which is 12 Exhibit 1? 13 A I believe the Department of Justice did try to get 14 all of that. Yes. As I told you, for last two years, there 15 is so many thing going on in my office, people come in and 16 search. I voluntarily allowed them to search. I give all my 17 documentation to my attorney and then all of that is there. 18 That's the best answer I can give it to you. 19 Q Have you ever kept a diary? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Has anyone kept one for you? 22 A Only the schedule. Only the schedule with my 23 general manager. As I told you, I really don't keep 24 anything. I just -- after 14 years old, I don't keep 25 anything. 15 1 Q I take it you're married. 2 A Yes, I am. 3 Q Have your wife ever made notes about your 4 activities? 5 A You mean my trip to go where? 6 Q Such as -- that's just one example, but has she 7 ever written anything down for you or typed anything out for 8 you about your various activities? 9 A No. No. She only -- she only did it on the 10 calendar, there he go somewhere, there he will come back. 11 But that's the only thing. 12 Q We'll come back to this later. 13 A Okay. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you what I'll ask the 15 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 2. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: 3. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: 3. I'm sorry. 18 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 3 19 was marked for identification.) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Exhibit 3 is a copy of your written testimony which 22 you provided on May 11th, that was last Tuesday, to the 23 Government Reform Committee, right? 24 A That's correct. 25 MR. SUN: I would note for the record, Mr. Klayman, 16 1 that the last page of Exhibit 3 is not something prepared by 2 Mr. Chung or submitted as part of the record as his 3 statement. That was prepared by, I believe, the staff of the 4 Government Oversight Committee. Just for the record. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Thank you. 6 THE WITNESS: And I want to make in the record a 7 little bit change. We already talked to the committee -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 9 MR. SUN: Some typos and minor changes. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Who prepared the first written draft of your 13 testimony? 14 A My attorney with my wishes, my -- how do you say -- 15 MR. SUN: Direction? 16 THE WITNESS: My direction. Yes. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q But you didn't write down the thoughts, you relayed 19 to your attorney information and then he prepared it. 20 A That's correct. Because as you know, I'm a first 21 generation immigrant, my English is not as good as my wife 22 and my children, so my attorney prepared this for me. 23 Q Did anyone on the Government Reform Committee help 24 you with your testimony? 25 A Writing this? 17 1 Q Yes. 2 A No. 3 Q Did they suggest changes to it? 4 A No, not that I know. No. 5 Q Did they suggest to put certain things into it or 6 leave certain things out of it? 7 A No. 8 Q Is this testimony true and accurate? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Is there anything you'd like to change other than 11 the typos? 12 A No. Can I say one more thing? 13 Q Sure. 14 A I stand behind my testimony, my statement. 15 Q Okay. In your testimony yesterday -- or two days 16 ago. 17 A Two days ago. 18 Q You made certain statements about the campaign 19 finance system in the United States. Do you remember that? 20 A I do. 21 Q And you stated on page 4, if you could turn to 22 page 4, second paragraph, "I am telling my story to you. I 23 must make one other observation and request. It seems to me 24 that the American people deserve an answer from you 25 politicians who talk a lot about changing and improving the 18 1 system, yet more than two years after this controversy 2 erupted, you, the Congress, have done nothing to change the 3 system. Indeed, within the last month I received in an 4 invitation to a fundraiser where I might have got yet another 5 photo opportunity with some politician, although most of you 6 would probably want to run away from me at this point. 7 "What I want to say here is that I hope my 8 testimony doesn't really end up being a shouting match 9 between you Democrats and Republicans. Your attacking each 10 other or attacking others who have had their reputations 11 ruined in some instances without any justification serves no 12 useful purpose." 13 Who did you get that fundraising invitation from? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. This is way 15 beyond the scope. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled. 17 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I want to join in the 18 objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. It's overruled. 20 MR. SUN: If the objection is overruled, you can 21 answer the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I can answer the question? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 24 THE WITNESS: I received the last few month, the 25 latest one I receive is from the Democratic Congressional 19 1 Committee and one before that I received from the Vice 2 President Al Gore's invitation. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You received an invitation from the Democratic 5 Congressional Committee? 6 A Congressional Campaign Committee. 7 Q Campaign Committee. 8 A That was -- could be one week or ten days ago. 9 Q And what were they offering, if anything? 10 A Asking me to join, just like a regular fundraiser 11 party and one sheet of invitation faxed to my fax machine. 12 And the other one is -- 13 Q Let's stop with that. 14 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I have to interpose an 15 objection for the record. I'm taking a look at the subpoena 16 and Mr. Klayman's motion that this deposition be taken and I 17 would note for the record that it appears that the thrust of 18 the motion seeking the deposition and the appendix here seeks 19 information regarding Mr. Chung's contacts with the U.S. 20 Department of Commerce and in particular the area that I 21 believe that we were trying to respond to was a certain trip 22 that Mr. Chung took to the People's Republic of China in 23 August of 1994 or thereabouts. 24 So I would interpose an objection on scope and 25 relevance and ask for either some proffer or showing as to 20 1 what this line of inquiry has in terms of a connection with 2 the motion which I did not oppose largely because it was my 3 understanding that Mr. Klayman and Judicial Watch were 4 seeking information about Mr. Chung's contacts with the 5 Department of Commerce and in particular that trip which he 6 is fully prepared to respond to today, but I fail to see the 7 relevance of the scope of that with some of these other 8 matters and would interpose that objection. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled, with the understanding 10 that Mr. Klayman will move on to the topic of the deposition, 11 will you not? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. Let's go. 14 MR. SUN: Thank you, Your Honor. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: And this is the topic, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: It deals with his dealings with the 18 DNC and the Commerce Department. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Who sent you that fundraising letter to the 21 Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee? 22 A The only thing I know is the Democratic 23 Congressional Campaign Committee on the top. That's all I 24 know. 25 Q And did they ask you for a certain amount of money? 21 1 A As of this moment, which is seven days ago or ten 2 days ago, Larry, I don't really pay too much attention about 3 that kind of detail. I don't feel good to receive that kind 4 of invitation any more. If you need a copy, I will try to 5 give you a copy. I am sorry, I did not pay too much 6 attention to that. 7 Q What did you do with that fundraising letter? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 10 MR. SUN: Your Honor, may I have just for the 11 record a continuing standing objection? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 13 MR. SUN: Thank you. 14 MS. BRASWELL: I join in that. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You both will have such an 16 objection. 17 THE WITNESS: So I answer? 18 MR. SUN: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. I put it aside, put a smile on 20 it, and just move it on the side of the table. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You smiled or you put a little smile picture on it? 23 A No, I just smiled to the piece of paper and put it 24 on the side. 25 Q Is there a file that you keep these kinds of things 22 1 in in your office? 2 A Not really. Not really. I used to just throw 3 away. 4 Q Was it sent to your home or was it sent to the 5 office? 6 A Which one we talk about? 7 Q This Democratic National Campaign Committee. 8 A Sent it to my office. 9 Q Where is your office? 10 A Torrance, California. 11 Q And what's the address? 12 A 2771 Plaza Del Amo. 13 Q Suite 809, Torrance, California? 14 A Suite 809, Torrance, California. 15 Q 90503. 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And that's Automated Intelligent Systems, Inc., 18 correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q The correspondence that you received from Vice 21 President Gore, where was that sent? 22 A One is in my office, one is at my home. 23 Q The one in your office was sent by mail or by fax 24 or both? 25 A Two, by fax and by mail. 23 1 Q And you received the same thing at home? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And when was that received? 4 A I only can give you the estimate date, Larry, I 5 don't really pay too much attention about this kind of 6 fundraiser letter any more. If I'm not correct, don't blame 7 me, okay? That will be 30 days, approximately 30 days. 8 Q And what was being requested of you? How much 9 money? 10 A I do not pay too much attention, again, but there 11 is some money issue there, but I really -- again, I told to 12 my wife this is not the kind of letters I like to receive any 13 more. 14 Q Did the request invite you to a certain event? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q What event was that? 17 A I don't remember, but I think I'll provide you a 18 copy. 19 Q Okay. Thank you for those two copies. Was the 20 event to take place in the Los Angeles area? 21 A I believe so. Yes. 22 Q Was anyone sponsoring the event on behalf of Vice 23 President Gore? 24 A I believe so, but I'm not sure. I can give you a 25 copy, it will show it there. Let me tell you again after all 24 1 of this happened to me, I don't really pay too much attention 2 to it any more, because I am broke. 3 Q Was there -- do you know a person by the name of 4 Maria Hsia, H-s-i-a? 5 A Yes, I do have the one very, very early time, one 6 encounter. Yes. 7 Q When did you meet her? 8 A Way before 1990, 1991. Could be 1989. One of my 9 business friend at the City of Monterey Park, at that time, I 10 was really trying to establish my fax broadcasting service 11 and answering machine voice mail and I run into Mr. Lin, I 12 believe. 13 Q Mr. or Mrs.? 14 A Mr. Lin, L-i-n. 15 Q What's his first name? 16 A I don't remember. I tried to ask him to join me to 17 set up a company, happen to be Mr. Lin's office was next to 18 Maria Hsia's office at the City of Monterey Park, the best I 19 can give you, Atlantic Boulevard. And he introduced me to 20 her, handshake, business card changing, period. I never 21 talked to her again, I never see her again. 22 Q Do you know what she does for a profession? 23 A At that time, I don't, but later on I read it, in 24 the last two and a half year I have a lot of free time, so I 25 read a lot of the news, a lot of newspaper, I learn it from a 25 1 newspaper she did the immigration consulting for people. 2 That's what I know. 3 Q And you knew that she helped arrange for the 4 Buddhist temple fundraising event for Vice President Al Gore? 5 A I read it from a newspaper, yes. And also watching 6 the TV. 7 Q You're also aware that she has been reported to be 8 an agent for Chinese intelligence. You read that, too, 9 correct? 10 A Well, I read it from the newspaper. That's what I 11 know. 12 Q Did anyone ever tell you that, that she works for 13 the government of China? 14 A No. I never got that. I don't have any connection 15 with her at all. The only thing I read is after the campaign 16 finance broke, all the newspaper and everything, I read it 17 then. 18 MR. SUN: I think you've answered Mr. Klayman's 19 question. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q This fundraising letter from Vice President Gore, 22 were there names of other fundraisers other than Vice 23 President Gore in the letter sponsoring the event? 24 A I don't recall. I have to give you a copy, as I 25 said. I have to give you a copy. 26 1 Q Okay. 2 A I do not pay too much attention to that kind of 3 fundraising letter any more. 4 Q At the first break, if you were to call your 5 office, would they be able to fax that to the judge? 6 MR. SUN: I don't believe Mr. Chung has the Gore 7 invitation. I believe he -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. This is a speaking 9 objection, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I think what Mr. Sun is 11 trying to explain to you is where it is and whether it's 12 possible to get it faxed here. 13 Mr. Klayman, I think we should move on. 14 MR. SUN: Yes, I was endeavoring to do that. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have it? Do you have it, 16 Mr. Sun? 17 MR. SUN: We may have it, but the other one that 18 you referred to, the DCC one, I believe Mr. Chung may have in 19 his office. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Well, I'm going to request at 21 the break to see if we can get copies of that. 22 MR. SUN: Mr. Chung, just wait for his question. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Now, Mr. Chung, you testified on Tuesday to the 25 Government Reform Committee, and I'm paraphrasing, that the 27 1 problem with the American system is that you can get access 2 to politicians and get them to do things if you pay them 3 money, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Where did you first learn that that's the way the 6 system works? 7 A In my statement, it said that the very first time, 8 48 years old birthday for the President, myself, my wife, my 9 daughters and my parents, we went to the birthday party with 10 other Taiwanese American citizens. We went to the party, 11 then I see, I begin to realize and understand. 12 Q Had anyone ever told you before that in the 13 American system you pay politicians campaign contributions 14 and get favors in exchange? 15 A Not at that time. 16 Q Who invited you to the President's birthday party? 17 If anyone. 18 A Reta Lewis of the -- I'm pretty sure assistant to 19 the President at the political affair. 20 MR. SUN: I believe Reta is spelled R-e-t-a. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q How did you come into contact with Ms. Lewis? 24 A I was doing my fax broadcasting business service, 25 try to promote my service to multiple National Governor 28 1 Association. For me, it's easy for me to promote the 2 business at the Washington, D.C. when the National Governor 3 Association all get together, instead of go state after 4 state. 5 I was attending that event, which is any American 6 businessman can go, and I was listening to the President of 7 the United States making a speech to the National Governor 8 Association. I believe it was J.W. Marriott hotel in 9 Washington, D.C. And she came to me and called my name on my 10 name tag and what are you doing over here, then we begin to 11 have a conversation and we have a business card exchange. 12 I tried before that, tried to get White House 13 business if possible I can, as American businessman, to 14 pursue the business opportunity. And then she invited me to 15 go the White House. I take this as a golden opportunity for 16 me to promote my company service. So I did accept the 17 invitation. I went to the White House and then that was the 18 beginning. 19 Q Did someone introduce you to Ms. Lewis? 20 A No. She approached me and we handshake and we 21 introduce each other. 22 Q How was it that you were invited to that event 23 where you met Ms. Lewis? 24 A National Governor Association, anyone -- anyone, 25 any American businessman who pay -- I believe $400 or $500 to 29 1 the event of National Governor Association, you can 2 participate. To buy the ticket and go. And that was 3 non-partisan, I believe. 4 Q How did you learn of that governors association 5 meeting? 6 A After state after state after state traveling, I 7 begin to learn there is a National Governor Association, you 8 don't have to go talk to them all the different state. 9 Larry, you know, we are a great country, we are a big 10 country, and it is so difficult to travel every single state. 11 The best way to meet with them will be the annual meeting. I 12 believe one is in wintertime and one in summertime. 13 Q To summarize your testimony, you wanted to go to 14 this meeting to meet politicians to sell your fax concept. 15 A Yes. That's correct. That's correct. 16 Specifically, I wanted to talk to the press secretary of 17 every governor's office, no matter Republican or Democrat, as 18 long as they can use my service. 19 Q But before you went to that meeting, you understood 20 that one of the ways you could interest politicians in doing 21 business with you was to make contributions to them. 22 A No, I don't. I don't. 23 Q Okay. So you met Reta Lewis. Now, did you ask her 24 how is it that you're able to invite me, Johnny Chung, 25 ordinary citizen to the White House? Were you surprised that 30 1 she could invite you there? 2 A I think that question didn't come up to my mind. 3 The only thing come to my mind is I was really happy I got an 4 opportunity to go to the White House to sell my business 5 ideas and try to promote my business to the White House. It 6 excited me. But that question you asked didn't come up to my 7 mind. 8 Q What was the date of that governors meeting? I 9 apologize if you've already said it. 10 A The best recollection I can give it to you will be 11 '94, I believe -- if I'm wrong, don't blame me, 1994, either 12 January, February or March, National Governor Association in 13 Washington, D.C. 14 Q Before that date, you had corresponded with Hillary 15 Clinton, correct? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q And how did you get to know Hillary Clinton? 18 MR. SUN: Objection as to scope and relevance. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: Answer? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: As I told you, I went state after 23 state after state for my business promotion. After 1992, 24 between October and November, I tried to do my business 25 promotion, I tried to call so many governors association. 31 1 And I come up with the idea the fax broadcasting can be used 2 for campaign purpose. 3 And what I did is I called then the governor's 4 office of Arkansas, I talked to the people. I believe I 5 spent a lot of money on the phone trying to get everybody 6 interested. And then I talked to a lady, if I am right, it 7 will be Ashley Bell. She worked for the governor's office of 8 Arkansas. And then I told her that my system is good for 9 campaign purpose and later on then the governor, Bill 10 Clinton, become the president-elect. 11 On November 20, if I am wrong, it's a pretty close 12 date, of 1992, there is one small business kind of meeting, 13 then the governor of Arkansas, president-elect, called a 14 meeting at Little Rock, Arkansas, and that was the time I 15 went to the Little Rock, Arkansas and talked to Ashley Bell 16 and she told me that if you want to promote it, you can go to 17 the arena, I don't remember -- the conference area. 18 I come close to have the First Lady -- First Lady, 19 Hillary Clinton, was there and then I asked her to take a 20 picture and that was take a picture, that was it. And later 21 on, I will continue to send the letters and try to ask them 22 as American businessman, American entrepreneur, try to 23 promote a business. 24 And later on, I remember I heard from someone her 25 father was ill, I was doing the business in southern state, 32 1 so I would try to go back to the state of Arkansas, the 2 governor's office, try to get the business. And then I 3 stopped by at the hospital and write a very small note say I 4 wish -- I don't remember what I said, but basically I said 5 best wishes for your father and we will be praying for him. 6 And that was my first lady's handwriting. 7 And later on, I received a letter from her to say 8 thank you about my letter. That was all I can remember. 9 MR. SUN: So to inquire of the reporter, is 10 Mr. Chung speaking loud enough for you? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Mr. Chung, not withstanding your empathy for Mrs. 14 Clinton and her father, that you felt bad, you also knew that 15 it would be beneficial to get to know her in a business 16 context. 17 A Yes. That's correct. That's correct. But with 18 the letter, I give it to her was with sympathy. That was 19 with my sympathy. 20 Q Correct. But you knew it didn't do any harm to 21 express your sympathy -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- to her to develop the relationship for business 24 purposes as well. 25 A Yes. In case I got it. That's right. 33 1 Q And when you had the conversation with Reta Lewis, 2 did you mention to her that you had corresponded with 3 Mrs. Clinton? 4 A I believe so. I believe so. It's very difficult 5 to talk about it. This is 1993 and 1994. I believe so. I 6 don't have an exactly recollection. I may have mentioned to 7 her. 8 Q Did Mrs. Lewis say I have to get the permission of 9 Hillary Clinton before you come over? 10 A She didn't say that to me. She did not say that. 11 Q Did she say she had to check to see if you could 12 get entry into the White House? 13 A No, she did not. She just arranged me to go. 14 Q Mrs. Lewis knew of you before you actually met her 15 at that governors meeting at the Marriott. 16 A To my knowledge, I don't think so. To my 17 knowledge, I don't think so. Maybe she could, but at the 18 first conversation to each other, I don't think she know me. 19 Q Why do you believe, what facts or whatever, do you 20 believe you were invited to the White House by Mrs. Lewis? 21 A My best recollection, Larry, I think that we have 22 the same conversation later on inside the White House when 23 she introduced me to Maggie Williams and we come out with a 24 conversation that she said, oh, you are the one who is 25 running around over there in Little Rock, Arkansas governor's 34 1 office, I didn't know that. That's the only sentence I can 2 remember at this time. 3 Q I'm sorry if I didn't understand completely, but 4 Ms. Lewis made reference to your prior contact with Maggie 5 Williams at that governors event? 6 A No. No. I mean later on when I was inside the 7 White House and then she introduced Maggie Williams to me and 8 then -- I give my best recollection, she said, oh, you are 9 the one -- Ms. Lewis said you are the one who are running 10 around at the then governor's office in Arkansas, trying to 11 get the business for the fax broadcasting and I said I am the 12 one. So with that kind of conversation, I thought maybe she 13 doesn't know who I am. 14 MR. SUN: Mr. Chung, I believe Mr. Klayman was 15 trying to ask -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait. I understand what he said. 17 MR. SUN: -- was trying to ask you -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait. 19 MR. SUN: To make it clear to the record -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Gentlemen. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I object to this kind 22 of -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Chung, step out for a second. 24 Step outside, please. Go in the jury room. 25 (The witness was excused.) 35 1 MR. SUN: Your Honor, Mr. Chung, I think as he's 2 indicated on the record, has some difficulty in communicating 3 in English. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 5 MR. SUN: From time to time, in our experience, 6 it's been important for me as his counsel to try clarify 7 questions so he doesn't get himself in trouble on the record. 8 It's a relatively insignificant matter, but I 9 believe Mr. Klayman had asked Mr. Chung a question of why did 10 he essentially think he had been invited to the White House 11 by Ms. Lewis. 12 I believe Mr. Chung's answer was non-responsive and 13 I was trying to help Mr. Klayman in getting that question 14 asked and answered properly. That was my only intent. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to be adversarial with 16 Brian here, Mr. Sun, because I've dealt with a lot of people 17 from overseas myself, I was an international lawyer, and I 18 was going to give him a chance to work his way through it. 19 I understand the problems and I'm not going to in 20 any way take advantage of him by trying to put words in his 21 mouth, but I was going to back and let him reconstruct it. 22 MR. SUN: Well, I'm interested in moving this along 23 and I've already stated my objection to this line of inquiry, 24 so why don't we move it along? 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Why don't we do this. If 36 1 you sense, Mr. Sun, that Mr. Chung and the question have 2 passed like ships in the night, why don't you take a moment 3 and ask if you can consult with your client for a second and 4 then he can clarify things. 5 I think that would be preferable than in effect you 6 answering the question, because Mr. Klayman is entitled to 7 the witness answering the question. 8 MR. SUN: Very well, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: By the same token, we do have a 10 problem, the witness is giving testimony under oath, as his 11 attorney, you have an obligation to make sure he doesn't get 12 himself subsequently in trouble. So why don't you do that. 13 Because it seems to me at times he does have difficulty 14 understanding the question and articulating a response. 15 MR. SUN: Our experience has been, Your Honor, that 16 particularly with lawyers we all have a penchant to sometimes 17 make a speech before we ask the question and so that's where 18 Mr. Chung, like all witnesses, begins to lose question, 19 particularly with the language problem. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me suggest that, that before 21 Mr. Sun consults with Mr. Chung, give me an opportunity to 22 rephrase the question because I understand these kinds of 23 things, I've had a lot of experience with these kinds of 24 things. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But you can see he's struggling, 37 1 Mr. Klayman. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. I was actually going to -- 3 MR. SUN: He has struggled -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I was actually going to do exactly 5 what Mr. Sun was proposing to try to get back and draw it 6 together. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's try to proceed in that 8 fashion. By the same token, if you think he's having 9 trouble -- 10 MR. SUN: Very well, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- you've got an obligation to 12 protect him, don't hesitate to ask for some time to speak 13 with him. 14 MR. SUN: And, Your Honor, just for the record, 15 before Mr. Chung comes back in, I am not objecting that 16 much to this line of inquiry because I think we're in a 17 timeframe in August of 1994 that is actually relevant to 18 the inquiry that's raised in this matter, but, again, I 19 would interpose an objection because I don't see any of these 20 questions related to the Commerce Department at this 21 juncture. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Your objection will be overruled. 23 MR. SUN: Thank you. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If he's ready? 25 (The witness returned.) 38 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Chung. Please have 2 a seat. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Chung, what I was trying to get to, and you can 5 stop me any time if you're not sure of what I'm saying 6 because all we want to get at is the truth and I'm sure 7 you'll give it us if you hear the question correctly. 8 A I'm here to tell you the truth. 9 Q Okay. But what I'm trying to get at is did you 10 later learn from this conversation in the White House that 11 they knew about your prior activities in Little Rock, that 12 Ms. Lewis knew who you were when she invited you to the White 13 House at the governors meeting at the Marriott? 14 A I have to do my memory search. I don't remember 15 what she said to me, but I do remember Maggie Williams said 16 to me I know you, I heard about you at the Little Rock, 17 Arkansas. 18 Q Okay. So at that point in time or thereafter, did 19 it go through your mind that's why Reta Lewis invited me 20 because they already knew me at the White House? 21 MR. SUN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Just your state of mind. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't have any opinion about it, so 25 I cannot say yes or no. 39 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you get the feeling, did you get the impression 3 that Hillary Clinton had sent Reta Lewis to invite you to the 4 White House? 5 A I cannot answer this question because this is pure 6 my own opinion or something. 7 Q You can give your own opinion. This is just 8 discovery. 9 A To be honest, I never think about this question. I 10 was so excited I could get into the White House, try to get 11 my business before them. I don't give a thought about this 12 at all. I never think about that at that time. 13 Q Let's think about it now. It does make sense, 14 doesn't it? That's why you were invited, because they knew 15 of you. 16 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. Asked and 17 answered. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: Shall I answer? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 21 THE WITNESS: Larry, after this time, maybe that 22 was the way they tried to -- tried to know me or try to 23 solicit me. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Solicit you, you said? 40 1 A Yes. That's the word I used. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 3 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 4. 5 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 4 6 was marked for identification.) 7 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a composite exhibit of documents 8 which were compiled by the Government Reform Committee and it 9 will speed things along giving it to you as a composite 10 exhibit. And I turn your attention, there's a minority staff 11 report on the top, "Johnny Chung's Statements and the 12 Supporting Documents," and then -- 13 THE WITNESS: That's the majority staff. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Majority staff. And then after 15 page 12, it says exhibits. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q And the very first exhibit is Exhibit 1, it's a 18 letter from Hillary Rodham Clinton to you, Johnny Chung, at 19 Telform, Inc., West Covina, California 91791. Is this a 20 prior company that you owned? 21 A Yes, this is the company before Automated 22 Intelligent System, Inc. Yes. That was trying to do the 23 voice mail and fax retrieval system. Yes. 24 Q Did that company go into bankruptcy? 25 A Not really go bankruptcy. I mean, that company 41 1 convert to AISI. Yes. 2 Q You rolled it into -- made it -- it later became 3 Automated Intelligent Systems, Inc.? 4 A Yes. That's correct. 5 Q Okay. Now, this letter from Mrs. Clinton says, 6 "Thank you for your letter and my apologies for not getting 7 back to you sooner. It appears from the correspondence you 8 have had with federal and state officials and with the 9 private sector that you are already on the right track. 10 Nevertheless, I wish you good luck with your innovative 11 system. Sincerely yours, Hillary." 12 This is a letter which you received from 13 Mrs. Clinton in or around April 26, 1993, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And from this letter, it was your understanding 16 that Mrs. Clinton was interested in your fax system, correct? 17 A Encouraged me. Encouraged me. This letter really 18 encouraged me. Interested -- interested, I don't know. It 19 encouraged me. With this letter, it really opened a lot of 20 doors for me, for the meeting. 21 Q So having this letter in hand, you were able to 22 show this letter from Hillary Clinton to prospective 23 businesses to interest them in doing business with you. 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And it was your understanding that Mrs. Clinton 42 1 sent you that letter for that purpose. 2 MR. SUN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 THE WITNESS: Only thing I know, it helped me to 5 promote my business. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You at that time had met Mrs. Clinton, correct? 8 A Once. 9 Q And your impression was that she was a very 10 intelligent woman. 11 A Yes. 12 Q So you didn't think she sent you this letter for no 13 reason, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And you felt she was trying to help you. 16 A I thought she tried to help me. Yes. 17 Q And what is said in the right-hand column? I take 18 it that's Chinese. 19 A Yes. That's my handwriting. United States First 20 Lady Hillary, letter sent to me. 21 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. 22 A It says the First Lady of the United States Hillary 23 Clinton letter to me. That's it. 24 Q Okay. And at that time, you understood that 25 Mrs. Clinton would probably want something in exchange some 43 1 day, correct? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Calls for speculation. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 MR. SUN: Join in the objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I do not know at that time. I do not 6 know at that time. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Based on your experience in life, when people 9 generally give you something, they want something in 10 exchange, correct? 11 A I learned that later on, but at that time, I'm 12 very -- American entrepreneur, just trying to do whatever I 13 can, but I did learn that later on. At that time, I don't. 14 Q Okay. Now, turning to Exhibit 2, these are various 15 photographs of you with politicians. This wasn't sent to you 16 with the letter by Hillary Clinton, correct? 17 A No, this is a picture I took, as I told you, at the 18 National Governor Association, a different event. One is in 19 Boston, one is in Washington, D.C., one is Vermont, I think. 20 Another one Washington, D.C. and Boston. 21 Q Was this the one in Washington that these pictures 22 come from? The one we've just been discussing? 23 A Mixed. 24 Q Mixed? 25 A Yes. It show to you how aggressive -- I tried to 44 1 get all of the governors to use my service. Republican or 2 Democrat, I don't care. 3 Q Now, the next exhibit, Exhibit 3, is the business 4 card that Reta Lewis gave to you at the governors meeting in 5 Washington at the Marriott, correct? 6 A She give me twice. I take it as one of them is 7 this. One is Marriott Hotel, one is she gave it to me in 8 White House. She gave me twice. 9 Q Two cards. 10 A Two cards. 11 Q You don't know which one this is? 12 A They are identical. 13 Q They're identical. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. Now, what else did you discuss with 16 Ms. Lewis at that governors meeting? 17 A What kind of business I've been doing, why I'm 18 here, and then later on she invite me to go to White House. 19 Q Did you meet anybody else from the White House at 20 the governors meeting at the Marriott? 21 A Handshake first time with the President and pass 22 by. That's it. 23 Q During that meeting at the governors meeting at the 24 Marriott, did someone tell you that the Department of 25 Commerce was going to be conducting some trade missions 45 1 overseas? 2 A No. No. Not at that time. 3 Q Not at that time. 4 A No. 5 Q Okay. And did you have any discussions at that 6 meeting or at any governors meetings in and around this time 7 that the U.S. Government could help you do business? 8 A I don't ask -- I don't know how to ask. I don't 9 know how to ask. 10 Q So that didn't come up at the meeting. 11 A No. 12 Q Okay. At the time of this meeting, were you a 13 Democratic National Committee managing trustee? 14 A No. 15 Q Later you became a managing trustee. 16 A I don't even know until campaign finance broke, I 17 come to know I am trustee. I did not know I was a trustee 18 until campaign finance scandal broke and the news accounts 19 say I am a trustee and then I didn't understand what that 20 mean, trustee. 21 Q We'll get back to that later. Up to that point in 22 time of the meeting at the Marriott, had you ever met anybody 23 else from the Clinton administration? 24 You had met Mrs. Clinton, you had met Reta Lewis. 25 Had you met anybody else? 46 1 A Maybe, yes, I don't recall. Yes. 2 Q And after the governors meeting, did you then make 3 contact with Ms. Lewis so you could get into the White House? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q How did that happen? 6 A I think I called her and tried to set up the 7 meeting and then she invited me and then I went to the White 8 House. 9 Q What did she say on the phone conversation? 10 A I tried to promote my fax broadcasting and then 11 that was the first conversation, what kind of fax 12 broadcasting service I can provide. What kind of business 13 I've been doing. Is there a possibility they can use my 14 service or not. 15 Later on, we been talk the first time and I did 16 talk to one of my shareholder and also my friend. He was 17 then the president of Taiwanese American Association, 18 American citizen. 19 Q What association was that? 20 A That was called Taiwanese American Association in 21 the United States. 22 Q Okay. 23 A And then he was eager to -- I'm talking about 24 American citizen. Every one of them American citizen. They 25 are thinking about to have the U.S. passport birthplace 47 1 instead of writing China, they want to put Taiwan. And then 2 somebody told me that can we set up a meeting over there at 3 the White House try to tell them about that, our message as 4 American citizen, we have a right to do so. 5 And then I also talked to Ms. Lewis, Reta Lewis, 6 about this and she said she can set up a meeting for us at 7 the Indian Treaty Room at the White House. 8 Q Was anything else discussed during the 9 conversation? 10 A That's all I remember. 11 Q So how long was it after that conversation that you 12 went to the White House? 13 A I don't recall. Could be weeks, could be a month. 14 I don't recall. Could be weeks, could be a month. But there 15 is a record of the -- the WAVE record of the White House and 16 then you can see the last time and the first time that we get 17 in. That may be the record. 18 Q We'll turn to Exhibit 4. Does this help you 19 refresh your recollection as to when you then went to the 20 White House? This is the WAVE log. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Secret Service WAVE log. You've become very 23 sophisticated. You know what a WAVE log is? 24 A Yes, I do. I've been doing it a lot. 25 Q You've been at the White House a lot? 48 1 A Yes. Is there a date here? I don't see any date. 2 MS. BRASWELL: It's cut off at the top. The search 3 date. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Well, let's turn to this chronology which the 6 majority staff prepared, the second page, the second page of 7 Exhibit 4, wherein it states "On August 2, 1994, John Huang, 8 Johnny Chung and Melinda Yee were invited to the White House 9 by Reta Lewis to discuss an issue of interest to 10 Taiwanese-Americans. Huang and Chung entered the White House 11 together. Chung met with Huang, Yee and Lewis in the Indian 12 Treaty Room. White House entrance records indicate that 13 Huang, Chung and Yee entered the White House on August 2, 14 1994 and were signed in by an individual with the last name 15 of Lewis. These records further indicate that Huang and 16 Chung entered and exited the White House at the same exact 17 time. See Exhibit 4." Which is what I referred to, the WAVE 18 logs. 19 Now, reading you that entry made by the majority 20 staff of the Government Reform Committee, that refreshes your 21 recollection, does it not, as to the date that you went to 22 the White House? 23 A I want to make a little bit -- make the record 24 clear. We did not enter into the White House together. We 25 were there with all the group of Taiwanese-American people 49 1 and we were taken to the Indian Treaty Room. And then later 2 on when we sat down, Reta Lewis come in with John Huang and 3 Melinda Yee and that was the very first time I have a chance 4 to know both of them. And then we didn't exit together. No. 5 We don't. Maybe on the record it says the same time. Before 6 that, I did not know John Huang or Melinda Yee. 7 Q But you had heard of John Huang before that. 8 A I don't, but some of the member of the group that 9 we enter, yes. It seems to be, yes, they know him. They 10 know him. 11 Q And they knew him because he was very prominent in 12 the Asian-American community, correct? 13 A Yes. But actually, it was very uncomfortable to 14 have Melinda Yee and John Huang to be there because they are 15 not what they call Taiwanese-American. They are what are 16 called Chinese-American. 17 Q They were born in mainland China? 18 A I don't want to go back to the history, but 19 what I can easily say is Taiwanese-American, they stand 20 out, the Taiwanese-American born in Taiwan and that's 21 Taiwanese-American. And then there is another kind of people 22 they call Chinese-American in Taiwan, which is their parents 23 come from China, okay? 24 Q Right. 25 A And at that time, they can see that they are 50 1 Taiwanese-American, they are talking about the passport being 2 the place of birth is China and they don't want China, they 3 want to put in Taiwan, and we have these two Chinese-American 4 to be there is not appropriate at all. 5 Q You are Taiwanese born. Your ancestors don't come 6 from mainland China. 7 A That's what my grandpa told me, I was 17 generation 8 Taiwanese born. 9 Q Right. You're a Haka? 10 A No, I am not Haka, I am just Taiwan. 11 Q Okay. 12 A They say Haka. No, I am not. But my last name 13 sounds like it. 14 Q Right. And the reputation of Taiwanese born is 15 very hardworking people who built up the island of Taiwan. 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And they feel very proud of their special heritage. 18 A My ancestor told me that they are the very first 19 generation to enter into Taiwan and to cultivate Taiwan. As 20 I know, that was 17 generation. 21 Q Right. President Lee is the first native Taiwanese 22 to ever be the president of Taiwan. 23 A That's what I heard. 24 Q And you're very proud of that. Yes. 25 A I want to make the record clear, both of them to be 51 1 there is not really appropriate for us to be there, but if 2 they are over there, they are over there. 3 Q Had you ever heard of Melinda Yee before? 4 A Never. 5 Q Now, when you recognized that they were there, I 6 take it you and others who are native Taiwanese remarked 7 about their being there. 8 A Yes. I told -- I asked the president of 9 Taiwanese-American association who are they. I expect we are 10 the only Asian group that should be there. And then they 11 mentioned to me uncomfortable and I say, well, they should 12 not supposed to be here. And then that was the situation. 13 Q Did anyone say to you they're here because they're 14 fundraisers? 15 A No, at that time, they don't. 16 Q Did you come to understand that, that that's why 17 they were there? 18 A Later on, yes. 19 Q How did you come to understand that later on? 20 A Because I saw them in so many different fundraiser 21 party. I mean, I didn't get in touch with them or handshake 22 with them, I saw them. Okay. That night on the 48th 23 birthday party, I saw them. 24 Q Did anyone make any remarks about Mr. Huang or 25 Mr. Yee, particular remarks that you can remember? 52 1 MS. BRASWELL: It's Ms. Yee. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Yee. What did I say? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Mr. Yee. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Yee. 5 THE WITNESS: Melinda Yee? No. We just feel very 6 uncomfortable to have two Chinese-American to be there and we 7 are talking about a passport. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Well, I guess what I'm getting at is how did you 10 know that they were Chinese-American and not 11 Taiwanese-American? How did that come up? 12 A Some of the member told me. 13 Q And in that discussion, did they say John Huang, 14 he's a big fundraiser, he's really tied in with the Clintons, 15 anything like that? 16 A Not at that time. 17 Q Same thing with Melinda Yee? 18 A No. 19 Q Did anyone say Mr. Huang is very powerful because 20 he is associated with the Riady family of Indonesia and 21 China? 22 A Not at that time. Not at that time. 23 Q Did that happen later? 24 A Not -- after we all finished the entire event and 25 with the birthday, I asked one of the gentleman who is a 53 1 newspaperman, he called -- he own a newspaper in southern 2 California, Asian-Pacific newspaper, which is I take it is a 3 Taiwanese newspaper, and then he pass away later on. Mr. Wu, 4 I remember. Simon Wu, if I recollect the name. 5 The gentleman told me that he is very involved with 6 the politics. He, John Huang. At that time, I don't really 7 get too much involved with the American politics, I don't 8 know too much. 9 Q Mr. Wu, otherwise known as Ng Lap Seng? 10 A No, no, no. 11 Q Different Mr. Wu? 12 A No. No. No. This Mr. Wu has already pass away. 13 Q Oh, okay. 14 A A Taiwanese-American. The newspaper man. Is 15 American citizen. 16 Q Okay. And you subsequently came to know that Ms. 17 Yee was also very influential. You later learned that. 18 A I later learned that. Yes. 19 Q And who did you learn that from? 20 A I see that when I was in the trip in Beijing. The 21 first trip to Beijing. 22 Q How did you first become aware that she was very 23 influential in the first trip to Beijing? 24 MR. SUN: I would object. Vague and ambiguous, as 25 to the term influential. 54 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 3 THE WITNESS: She set up some -- she could invite 4 me to go to the meeting with the meeting which is provided by 5 the American government to say thank you to the Chinese 6 businessmen and government official and also invite all 7 American businessmen in Beijing to attend, took us in to Ron 8 Brown breakfast speech and I said, okay, you can do that for 9 me, that would be nice. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You later learned that she had some links with the 12 Riady family as well, correct? 13 A I don't. I don't. I have very few knowledge about 14 her. 15 Q We'll take that later. We're going to take this in 16 order and make it easy. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Now, when you entered the White House, did you, 19 Johnny Chung or anyone that you know of, have any 20 conversations with Mr. Huang or Ms. Yee? 21 A That day, I don't. I'm busy taking picture for 22 everybody. 23 Q What kind of camera do you have? 24 A The camera I always bring back to the White House 25 all the time, pocket camera. 55 1 Q Did the people who had conversations with Mr. Huang 2 and Ms. Yee, did they tell you what they discussed? 3 A Again, I want to repeat, at that time, everybody 4 feel uncomfortable. 5 Q Well, I understand that. 6 A Yes. 7 Q But did the people tell you what they discussed 8 with Mr. Huang and Ms. Yee? 9 A No, they only discussed that day with me is that 10 very uncomfortable. That's all I recall. 11 Q You, Johnny Chung, as a general matter, don't feel 12 comfortable with people who come from mainland China. 13 A No. 14 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. Misstates the 15 facts. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: No. I don't feel that way. I was 18 really -- Larry, I want to let you know that my first wife 19 was what you call Chinese-American, so I don't -- I don't 20 really -- my first wife is Chinese-American. I was born in 21 Taiwan. So to answer your question, I don't. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q In fact, you once said to -- was it General Ji or 24 Ms. Liu that you felt like you had Chinese blood in your 25 bones and therefore you wanted to help the Chinese? 56 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. This is so 2 outside the scope. 3 MR. SUN: I would join in that objection. No 4 foundation. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 7 THE WITNESS: I want to help -- first of all, I 8 want to say I am American citizen. I say that to my 9 shareholder, I say that to my friend. I was die-hard 10 Democrat as of that time. And if you are American -- 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You're not a Republican now, are you? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Come on, Mr. Klayman. Let's go. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Okay. Go on. Go on. I'm sorry. 16 A In that kind of situation, as American, you 17 supposed not to think about Taiwanese-Chinese, Communist 18 Party, you don't do that. You are American. You are 19 American. So I try to be friend with all of them. 20 Q In that meeting that you had in the White House, 21 who was present from the White House? Who did you interact 22 with? Who did you meet with? 23 A A group of our people, seven or ten people. Grace 24 Ho from the DNC. 25 Q Grace Ho? 57 1 A Grace Ho. 2 Q H-o? 3 A H-o. I believe she's Korean-American. And John 4 Huang, Melinda Yee, Reta Lewis and one of the lady -- I don't 5 remember the name. From the White House. 6 Q Do you know where in the White House she was from? 7 A I do not remember. 8 Q And did you have a chance -- I take it you had a 9 chance to talk with Grace Ho? 10 A Yes, I do. One day before that. 11 Q One day before that? 12 A One day. 13 Q Did she call you? 14 A She come to the hotel, the hotel we stayed in. 15 Q And what hotel was that? 16 A My best recollection, Doubletree. My wife was 17 complaining about that hotel. It's not really comfortable. 18 Q Did Grace Ho say why she wanted to come to the 19 hotel? 20 A To pick up the donation to the 48 years old 21 birthday. 22 Q Had anyone discussed making a donation to the 23 President's 48th birthday with you before that time? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When was that first discussed? 58 1 A My best recollection I can it to you was before 2 the meeting the DNC people told me that they would come to 3 pick it up, the check, at the hotel that night and the next 4 morning we can go to the meetings at the White House. And 5 then if I'm not wrong, that same night we went to the 48 6 years old birthday. 7 Q Let me see if I have the scenario right. 8 A That's my best recollection. 9 Q Okay. I understand. Ms. Lewis, you meet her at 10 the governors association meeting at the Marriott, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q She tells you I'm going to invite you to the White 13 House for this meeting. 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Does she mention that to get into the White House 16 you have to make a contribution to the President's 48th 17 birthday party fundraiser? 18 A Didn't really -- how do you say it in the American 19 way -- it didn't say face to face that way, the hint. If I 20 use the right American word. 21 Q A hint? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did she say, well, there's a fundraiser for the 24 President for his 48th birthday, it's nice to make a 25 contribution -- 59 1 A Nice to go. Nice to go and also meet with the 2 President. 3 Q Right. And then in the same conversation she 4 invites you to the White House? 5 A To set it up, all of the Taiwanese-American 6 Association meeting. That's the best recollection I have. 7 Exactly the conversation I don't remember. 8 Q Right. So you put, as we say, two and two together 9 and you knew they were going to ask you for something in 10 exchange for inviting you to the White House. 11 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, can I use 70 percent, 30 14 percent? 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. Answer the question as 16 honestly and truthfully as you can. 17 THE WITNESS: Seventy percent I understand, 18 30 percent I still don't understand at that time. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Thirty percent you were hoping they invited you 21 just because they liked you. 22 A Because the see American entrepreneur and 23 70 percent I begin to understand something. 24 Q You began to get the first feeling of how the 25 system worked. 60 1 A That's my testimony a few days ago. 2 Q So Ms. Ho contacts you and what does she say to 3 you? 4 A She come to my hotel room and collect all of the 5 checks. My best recollection, if you don't get all of the 6 checks collect, the meeting that is set up tomorrow -- I 7 don't remember exactly the recollection. I don't remember. 8 Q Did she tell you how much she wanted you to write 9 the check for? 10 A At that time, I believe we don't know. We don't 11 know how much per person and I believe we have the 12 invitation. 13 Q When you say we, who is we? 14 A The whole -- my family, my parents, that newspaper 15 man I told you, Mr. Simon Wu, and also the president of 16 Taiwanese association and the wife, and Simon Wu's wife. 17 Q How did they all find out? Was that discussed at 18 the governor's association meeting? 19 A No, we all come together because we all know that 20 there is a fundraiser -- there is an opportunity -- I will 21 put it this way. Opportunity to meet with the President of 22 the United States, also we come to Washington, D.C. to talk 23 about American passport issue for the Taiwanese-American 24 Association. 25 Q So did they get a solicitation letter or a fax from 61 1 the DNC saying you can get into the White House to discuss 2 this issue of how you list your origin on your passport if 3 you make a contribution for the President's fundraiser for 4 his 48th birthday? 5 A It wasn't like that way. I think I am the one that 6 handled that. Reta Lewis faxed me some letters and then say 7 we are welcome to go to -- she would set it up, the meeting, 8 for Taiwanese-American Association at the White House. And 9 then at a different kind of conversation, she did told me 10 about there's a 48 years old birthday party. And I told this 11 group of people. 12 Q Okay. Turning your attention to Exhibit 5 of 13 Exhibit 4, this is a check written by Automated Intelligent 14 Systems, Inc., $10,000 to the DNC, August 1, 1994. 15 Underneath there's a check tracking form. It says company, 16 AISI, Inc. It lists President's birthday dinner, solicitor 17 Benavides, DNC contact Minyon, M-i-n-y-o-n, and Mercer. 18 Have you ever seen this document before? 19 A Down here, no. The check, I did. I signed it. 20 Q Is this the check you're referring to that you 21 provided before you went to the White House meeting where 22 Melinda Yee and John Huang were also present? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And does this refresh your recollection as to 25 whether or not Ms. Ho asked you for a specific amount of 62 1 $10,000? 2 A I do not recall how much -- a specific amount per 3 person, but I figured it out, how much it will be if my mom, 4 my dad, me, my wife and my daughter, so five people. And 5 then I was calculating at that time, so it could be 2000 per 6 person. And the other gentlemen and ladies, I don't know. 7 That's how much I had to pay. 8 Q Have you ever had any contact with someone by the 9 name of David Mercer? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q Did you have contact with him at around this time? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Before or after Ms. Ho contacted you? 14 A I don't recall. Could be before, could be after. 15 I don't recall. 16 Q And how did you have contact with him? 17 A He was the first person contact with me from the 18 DNC beside Grace Ho. 19 Q Did he call you in and around this time period? 20 A I don't recall. I don't recall. I will put it in 21 contact with me around this time. I don't recall called me 22 or not, but the first time could be in contact to each other 23 around this time. 24 Q And was this in person or by phone? 25 A I only recall it's in person with inside the 48 63 1 birthday party. 2 Q Inside? 3 A Inside. In the party. 4 Q But you had already paid the money at that time. 5 A Yes. Yes. And I know -- Larry, I'm sorry. It's 6 kind of long, long time ago. It could be a phone call 7 exchange and then I know him and inside the party, he will 8 try to introduce different people to me because I know him at 9 the party. Yes. But I do know Ms. Ho because when she came 10 to pick up the check. 11 Q And at that party when you talked with Mr. Mercer, 12 he told you that there are lots of benefits that you can 13 receive by donating money to the Democratic National 14 Committee? 15 A Not really that much. At that time, I don't even 16 know I was vice chairman for that event -- co-chairman, not 17 vice-chairman, co-chairman, until campaign finance broke I 18 find it out that I was co-chair of that event. And I don't 19 even know whether that amount of money I donated I should 20 have a personal picture taken with the President in a private 21 reception. I don't even know that. 22 Q Now, Ms. Ho, what did you discuss with her when she 23 called you? 24 A I'm sorry -- 25 Q Ms. Ho. 64 1 A I don't understand this. 2 Q Well, when she called you at the Doubletree, she 3 said I want to come over and pick up the checks? 4 A Yes. 5 Q She said that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And she told you the amount? 8 A Yes. I think at that time, everybody know how much 9 amount is it. 10 Q Did she discuss anything else with you? 11 A I don't remember anything else. She just come 12 late, very late at night, and pick up the check. 13 Q Now, when you were at the White House and you saw 14 her there, what did you discuss with her? 15 A Larry, I was so busy taking picture for everybody, 16 I really don't talk too much with anyone else. 17 Q The other woman whose name you can't remember is 18 Doris Matsui, correct? 19 A No. No. It's a white lady. It's a white lady. 20 Around 40, 50 years old. 21 Q Does the name Amy Zistook ring a bell? Does that 22 refresh your memory? 23 A Larry, anybody in the FBI and the Department of 24 Justice knows that I was very poor on American name, not only 25 today, okay? I was really poor on American name. But if you 65 1 show me the picture, maybe I can remember. 2 Q Did you have any conversations directly with Mr. 3 Huang in the White House? 4 A At that meeting, handshake, no. Not really. 5 Q Does Mr. Huang speak Mandarin as his first 6 language -- 7 A I believe so. 8 Q -- or Cantonese? 9 A Mandarin. 10 Q Did you have any conversations with Melinda Yee? 11 A At this trip? At this meeting? I believe we have 12 exchanged business card. Period. And then I was busy taking 13 picture again. 14 Q Did Ms. Yee say why she wanted to exchange the 15 business cards? 16 A No. No. Just a very business way to exchange 17 business cards. 18 Q She did tell you she worked at the Department of 19 Commerce, though? 20 A Yes. At that time, yes. 21 Q And she told you what she did there? 22 A No. Not that trip. Not at that meeting. 23 Q Did she tell you that she helped arrange for trade 24 missions? 25 A Not at that meeting. 66 1 Q That was later. 2 A Correct. 3 Q And did you have any conversations with Reta Lewis 4 at that meeting? 5 A Thank you for the breakfast you prepared for us, 6 shall I pay for it or anybody should pay for it. And she say 7 I will take care of it. Period. 8 Q She said she was going to take care of the 9 breakfast? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You understood that was part of the $2000, right? 12 A No, I do not understand at that time. That tell 13 you how innocent I am. 14 Q Okay. Did anyone come in and meet with 15 you other than these people to discuss the issue of the 16 passport? 17 A No, that was the people. 18 Q Did the President come? 19 A No. 20 Q The Vice President? 21 A No one else. 22 Q Mrs. Clinton? 23 A No one else. 24 Q Maggie Williams? 25 A No one else. 67 1 Q But I take it someone said to you when you were 2 inside the White House, oh, we knew of you because of Little 3 Rock and Maggie Williams. 4 A If you ask me the question, is that meeting anyone 5 else besides this group and this White House official, that's 6 it. And then no one else come along. 7 Q Did anyone say to you during that meeting, 8 Mr. Chung, you and some of your friends are being targeted as 9 part of some outreach program? 10 A I do not know at that time, but later on, I did 11 begin to understand we been targeted. 12 Q What did you begin to understand later on? 13 A With all the campaign finance scandal and the 14 experience of Doris Matsui -- 15 Q Doris Matsui? 16 A Yes. And also with the people who I know in the 17 DNC, I begin to understand. 18 Q You understood that these people knew who you and 19 your friends were and wanted to get as much money out of you 20 as possible. 21 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: The best way I can respond to this 24 question is they are targeting to our group for political 25 contribution. 68 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did anyone ever tell you that you are being 3 targeted? 4 A At that meeting? No. 5 Q Later? 6 A No. Later, more later, the end of -- between the 7 end of '94 to '95. 8 Q Who told you that? 9 A I told myself and I begin to realize. 10 Q Did anyone ever actually say, Johnny, you and 11 others, you are being targeted for campaign contributions? I 12 take it someone must have said that. 13 MR. SUN: Objection. Argumentative. No 14 foundation. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I think that after that 17 contribution, I received the letter, until -- I had received 18 the fundraising invitation all the way until I told you seven 19 day or ten days ago. Never stopped. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And you're still be targeted? That's your 22 impression? 23 A I already tell everybody day before yesterday I'm 24 broke, don't send me anything to me. I am broke. 25 Q Who did you tell you were broke a few days ago? 69 1 A Two days ago I told it to the Congress in my 2 testimony to the Congress. I say I want to make it to the 3 record, I am broke. 4 Q So you were trying also to communicate with the 5 Democratic National Committee, don't send me any more of this 6 stuff, I'm broke. 7 A So far, they are the group sending to me, but maybe 8 I could say it to the whole world, don't send any invitation 9 to me regarding fundraising, I am broke. I am worse than 10 broke. 11 Q And the reason you say that is because you felt 12 like you were still being targeted, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Now, after that meeting in the White House, what, 15 if anything happened leading up to your attendance at the 16 President's 48th birthday party? 17 A I'm sorry, I do not understand. 18 Q I'm sorry. I said that like a lawyer. I'll try to 19 say it like a real person. What happened after you met at 20 the White House up to the time that you went to the 21 President's birthday party? 22 Did someone else contact you and say you need to 23 make another contribution to go to the birthday party? 24 A I do not remember but I do remember the whole group 25 were talking about it, if we do not put a contribution in we 70 1 cannot get the meeting in the morning. I do not remember who 2 told me that, but we do discuss about that. 3 Q Was it the president of the Taiwanese-American 4 Association who said that? 5 A No. We all have some kind of conversation 6 together. Yes. We can figure it out. You have to 7 understand, Larry, I was not really involved with the 8 politics before this. 9 Q Who was the president, what was his name? Of the 10 Taiwanese-American Association. 11 A Mr. Hong, I believe. 12 Q How is that spelled? H-o-n-g? 13 A H-o-n-g or H-u-o-n-g, I don't -- I'm sorry, I don't 14 spell good. 15 Q Where does he live? 16 A I think in southern California. 17 Q Torrance? That area? 18 A Yes, that area. Could be. 19 Q Do you know who he -- 20 A Not Torrance, I mean on the rich area. 21 Q What area? 22 A On a much more richer area. 23 Q A richer area. 24 A Yes. 25 Q San Marino? 71 1 A No, PV, we call it. Palos Verdes. 2 Q Palos Verdes? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you remember what company he's associated with? 5 A If you need it, I can give it to you, but I don't 6 have -- 7 Q Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that. 8 A Would you make a list? It's difficult for me to 9 write down all of these. 10 Q Sure. 11 A Very happy to provide to you. 12 Q Thank you. Did there come a point in time after 13 the meeting in the White House where you wrote another check 14 to go to the President's birthday party? 15 A Beside this one? 16 Q Yes. 17 A No. No. That was picking up at the hotel. 18 Q Ms. Ho? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. So the $10,000 check that we just identified 21 got you into this White House meeting on Taiwanese origins on 22 passports and it was intended to get you into the President's 23 birthday party, too? 24 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 25 Argumentative. 72 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Rephrase the question, if you 2 would, Mr. Klayman. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You understood that the $10,000 check would get you 5 into the White House for this meeting about passports and it 6 would also get you into the President's birthday party. 7 MR. SUN: Same objection. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: I can say that $10,000 give us two 10 things, to go into the White House meeting and also go to the 11 48th birthday party. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q And you were told that by Ms. Ho? 14 MR. SUN: Objection. Asked and answered. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: I cannot recall. Somebody told me, 17 but I cannot recall. I cannot recall. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Was it Mr. Mercer? 20 A I have the impression I know but I don't remember 21 who told me. I have an impression I know. 22 Q Okay. Who's the impression? We won't hold you to 23 it. Who do you think it was? 24 A One of the three, David Mercer, Reta Lewis and 25 Grace Ho. 73 1 Q Around this time period, had you ever met or had 2 contact with a person named Ari Swiller? 3 A Not yet. 4 Q That's later. 5 A Yes. 6 Q And Ari Swiller was the fundraiser at the 7 Democratic National Committee, correct? 8 A I get to know him later on through Richard 9 Sullivan. 10 Q And you later came to understand that he managed 11 the DNC Managing Trustee Program. 12 A I don't. I don't. I still don't, but later on I 13 find out a lot from news accounts. 14 Q Did you ever have any contact in person, in writing 15 or over the phone or whatever with someone by the name of 16 Eric Silden? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q Did that occur in and around this time period? 19 A No. 20 Q That was later, too? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And who did you understand Eric Silden to be? 23 Another fundraiser at the DNC? 24 A No, I take it he is some kind of assistant to the 25 chairman of the DNC. 74 1 Q To Mr. Fowler? 2 A Mr. Fowler. 3 Q Who you later met. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, did any discussions occur between you or 6 anybody that you know of, the Democratic National Committee 7 or the White House, leading up to the time that you went to 8 the President's 48th birthday party? 9 A I'm sorry, say that again? Sorry. 10 Q From the point that you had the meeting in the 11 White House and going to the birthday party, were there any 12 discussions between you or any of your friends with people 13 from the White House or the Democratic National Committee? 14 A As I said to you, there's Grace Ho who represent 15 DNC. That's all I know. 16 Q Were you sent materials about the President's 48th 17 birthday party? 18 A I think they give it to us the day they come pick 19 up the check, in the night. Some information that we 20 received. I don't remember. I did remember we received 21 something. 22 Q Have you ever met or had contact with a Vida 23 Benavides? 24 A Later on, yes. At the DNC basement, the office in 25 the basement. 75 1 Q Was that before or after the birthday party? 2 A I don't remember, Larry. Could be after. 3 Q And what was the occasion of your going to the DNC 4 basement? 5 A Grace Ho introduced me to her, say that she is the 6 boss to her. Grace Ho's superior. 7 Q And did Ms. Benavides say anything to you about the 8 benefits of donating to the Democratic National Committee? 9 A She could, but I don't remember what she said to 10 me. She did give me some kind of -- some kind of brochure or 11 documentation and mention about she is the one in charge of 12 Asian-American group at DNC. That's all I can remember. 13 Q The document that she gave you showed you what kind 14 of benefits you could get? 15 A I don't remember. I don't remember. If you show 16 me, maybe it will refresh my memory. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 18 reporter to mark as Exhibit 5. 19 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 5 20 was marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I'm show you Exhibit 5, Mr. Chung. The first 23 page is Business Leadership Forum and the second page is 24 DNC Business Leadership Forum Events and Membership 25 Requirements. 76 1 Is this the document that Ms. Benavides provided to 2 you? 3 A Doesn't ring a bell. Doesn't ring a bell. But I 4 see such kind of documentation later on with the Business 5 Leadership Forum. Later on, I would say '95, I believe -- 6 no, '94. 7 Q In '94? 8 A I think I got this kind of Business Leadership 9 Forum information in '95. 10 Q And who sent it to you? 11 A I believe Richard Sullivan. 12 Q Did you ever talk to him about what was listed in 13 the documentation, Mr. Sullivan? 14 A No. No. The first time I know is late 1994 -- I'm 15 sorry, I want to be correct. I got some memory back. Make 16 the statement correct. 17 When the Haomen Beer Company is here during the 18 Christmas period of 1994, after that August presidential 19 birthday, 48 years of birthday, I came to know Richard 20 Sullivan and through him David Mercer. And later on, I 21 call -- later on, they send me invitation to go to the First 22 Lady birthday in Los Angeles and I was there and the later on 23 again I was in Washington, D.C. for 1994 Christmas party and 24 I tried to arrange those beer company to go meet with the 25 President and Vice President. I call it wish list. 77 1 And then Richard Sullivan mentioned to me about 2 Business Leadership Forum and then if you can donate for 3 $40,000 we have a meeting and you guys can meet with the Vice 4 President at that time. 5 As I said it to the FBI and the Department of 6 Justice, those Haomen Beer Company has really created a whole 7 entire lobby for the way of beer and try to give everybody 8 free beer, to drink their beer and take a lot of pictures, 9 okay? And that was the first time I know of Business 10 Leadership Forum. 11 Q When you discussed the benefits of the Business 12 Leadership Forum, Mr. Sullivan mentioned that one of the 13 benefits is to go on a trade mission? 14 A No. No. I don't even know at that time anything. 15 That was late. No. That was -- that was 1994, Christmas 16 period. 17 Q That's when you found out you could go on a trade 18 mission. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: No. It's not. The trade mission is 25 different issue. 78 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Excuse me? 3 A This is different issue, different timing. And 4 different people who introduced me about trade mission. Not 5 then. 6 Q Did that introduce occur at the President's 7 birthday party. 8 A No. 9 MR. SUN: To who? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: To Mr. Chung. 11 MR. SUN: Introduction to Mr. Sullivan? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. 13 MR. SUN: I'm asking for a clarification. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, that's a fair question. Why 15 don't you go back and not use the word introduction in that 16 question so we're clear. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q When did you first learn that you could get to go 19 on a trade mission? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Your Honor, can the 21 witness step out, please? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, this is -- I don't want 23 to break the flow. 24 MS. BRASWELL: I'd like to -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a simple question. 79 1 MS. BRASWELL: It's an objection that it's vague. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. 3 Step out for a second, Mr. Chung. 4 (The witness was excused.) 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Ms. Braswell? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, we've had this objection 7 before as to what trade mission we're talking about, whether 8 we're talking about a trade mission sponsored by the 9 Democratic National Committee or sponsored by the Department 10 of Commerce. It is unfair to this witness for Mr. Klayman to 11 use term trade mission without saying who it was sponsored 12 by. 13 This Court has previously held that Mr. Klayman has 14 to say what kind of trade mission he's talking about. And 15 it's unfair to this witness and he's trying to get testimony 16 that he can twist later. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Those kinds of accusations are 18 unnecessary, Your Honor, and let me respond to this. I'll be 19 happy to ask the follow-up question, I have no difficulty 20 with that. Secondly, I find it -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: At least a follow-up question as 22 to the Department of Commerce. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: As an observation here, that the 24 Department of Justice wouldn't want to get the information 25 out. They're here on a FOIA case and I get the impression 80 1 they're defending the Commerce Department on the actual 2 allegation, which is not my understanding of why they're 3 here. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm trying to get 5 accurate testimony. That's why I'm here. 6 MR. SUN: Your Honor, if I might for the record and 7 also to assist Mr. Klayman and the Court to try to expedite 8 these proceedings, Mr. Chung will testify here today about 9 (a) what we believe to be some kind of trade mission 10 sponsored by the Department of Commerce and the documents 11 produced today reflect a connection between a trip made to 12 China in August or so of 1994 that appeared by the documents 13 to be connected to the Department of Commerce and he can 14 provide testimony relevant to that, I believe, as I 15 understood the subpoena. 16 And I have allowed or not objected vociferously as 17 to the questions regarding Ms. Lewis and all that because I 18 also saw the names of Mr. Huang and Ms. Yee on the subpoena 19 and because they were also involved in that meeting at the 20 White House I felt that was all within the scope of the 21 subpoena.