IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. 95-0113 : (RCL) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Washington, D.C. Wednesday, April 21, 1999 Continued deposition of GINGER LEW a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, a Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, Third Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C., commencing at 10:11 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA BRASWELL, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorney 555 Fourth Street, N.W., 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 ELISE B. PACKARD, ESQ. Office of the General Counsel U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street & Constitution Ave., N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Witness: PHILIP A. GAGNER, ESQ. Shaughnessy, Volzer & Gagner, P.C. 1155 15th Street, N.W. Suite 502 Washington, D.C. 20005 Also Present: Thomas J. Fitton, President Jason Aldrich Judicial Watch, Inc. Sylvanus Holley, videographer 3 C O N T E N T S PAGE EXAMINATION BY: Counsel for the Plaintiff 6 LEW DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 11 - Re-notice of Deposition Duces Tecum 8 12 - Photocopy of three luggage tags 10 13 - N.Y. Times article, "After Judges Review, Commerce Secretary Widens Inquiry," 1/3/99 10 14 - Investors Business Daily article, "An Inside Job at Commerce?" 6/19/98 11 15 - Asian Week Magazine article, "Spy Hysteria" by Ling-Chi Wang, 3/25/99 11 16 - Book, The Life and Times of Ron Brown, by Tracey L. Brown 11 17 - Photocopy of photograph of sendoff session 26 18 - Photocopy of photograph of sendoff session 32 19 - Brochure, DNC Managing Trustee Events and Membership Requirements 48 20 - Memo from Martha Phipps to Ann Cahill, 5/5/94, re: "White House Activities" 53 21 - Article October 1998, "Barbarians at the Fund" 68 22 - Minority donor list 74 23 - Photograph 91 24 - Photograph 93 25 - 4/4/96 Article, "U.S. Officials Don't Want to Discuss Brown Successor," Reuter Business Report 97 26 - Photograph 102 4 CONTENTS (con'd): 27 - Briefing materials 107 28 - Delegation list 114 29 - 5/25/98 Washington Post article, "Big Donor Calls Favorable Treatment a Coincidence" 131 30 - 7/16/93 Asian Week article 142 31 - Photograph 157 32 - 4/23/96 Zia letter to Huang 161 33 - Document: Democratic National Committee, Office of Asian Public Affairs 164 34 - Notes by Mr. Huang, "Asian Event" 171 35 - N.Y. Times article, "Democrats Hope to Raise 7 Million from Asians in U.S." 176 36 - Article, "Democrats Eye the Disgruntled APA Voter," by Sam Chu Lin, 11/4/94 189 37 - Handwritten document from Sally Painter to Rob Saidler, 1/26/94 201 38 - Document 204 39 - Memo to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter, 8/6/93 205 40 - Letter from Terry McAuliffe to Melissa Moss, 7/25/94 208 41 - Document, Minority Exporters, to Tracey Rancifer, 3/30/94 209 42 - Document 210 43 - Document 211 44 - Document 211 45 - John Huang's 1994 Desk Diary 213 46 - John Huang's 1995 Calendar Book 218 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is the video 3 deposition, the continuing deposition of Ginger Lew, taken by 4 the counsel for the plaintiff in the matter of Judicial 5 Watch, Inc., v. U.S. Department of Commerce, in the U.S. 6 District Court for the District of Columbia, Case Number 95- 7 0133, held in the chambers of Judge John Facciola at the U.S. 8 District Court of the District of Columbia, on this date, 9 April 21, 1999, and at the time indicated on the video 10 screen, which is 10:11 a.m. 11 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm the videographer. 12 The court reporter today is Rita Hemphill from the firm of 13 Diversified Reporting. 14 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, general counsel and 16 chairman of Judicial Watch. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. GAGNER: Philip Gagner, and I'm counsel for 19 Ginger Lew. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the U.S. 21 Attorney's Office, and I'm counsel for the Department of 22 Commerce. 23 MS. PACKARD: Elise Packard, Office of the General 24 Counsel, Department of Commerce. 25 VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter please swear 6 1 in the witness? 2 Whereupon, 3 GINGER LEW 4 was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 5 was examined and testified as follows: 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFF 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Ms. Lew, you recollect being first deposed on March 9 12, 1997, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q This is a continuing deposition. I ask you, with 12 regard to that deposition on March 12, 1997 -- 13 A Excuse me. Am I supposed to wear this? 14 VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes. The other side will be better. 15 Just flip it around. Yes. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Shall we start over again? Did you 17 get the response, or do we need to start over again, Mr. 18 Holley? 19 VIDEOGRAPHER: You need to ask her the question 20 again. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Ms. Lew, this is a continuing deposition to a 24 deposition of March 12, 1997. Do you remember being deposed 25 in this case on that date, March 12, 1997? 7 1 A Yes. 2 Q During that deposition, did you testify fully, 3 accurately, and completely? 4 A To the best of my knowledge, yes. 5 Q Is there anything about the testimony that you gave 6 at that time which is not accurate or complete? 7 A Based upon my recollection, which is now almost two 8 years old, I believe it was accurate. 9 Q Was it complete? 10 A I believe so. 11 Q Did you have an opportunity to review the 12 transcript of that deposition on March 12, 1997 before your 13 reconvened deposition here today? 14 A Yes. 15 Q When did you review that transcript? 16 A Yesterday. 17 Q Did you read the whole transcript? 18 A I believe I read most of it. I can't say I read 19 all of it. 20 Q Did you have an opportunity to meet with counsel to 21 prepare for this deposition? 22 A Yes. 23 Q When did you meet? 24 A We met on Monday of this week, and I believe we met 25 sometime in early April. 8 1 Q What was the length of those two meetings combined, 2 just roughly speaking? 3 A Two to three hours. 4 Q Which counsel were present at those meetings? 5 A Marina Braswell, Elise Packard was at the meeting 6 on Monday, along with my counsel, and then I met with my 7 counsel on the previous day. 8 Q Was Judith Means at any of these meetings? 9 A No. 10 Q In reviewing the transcript and reviewing your 11 prior testimony and discussing it with counsel, is there 12 anything you'd like to correct at this time? 13 A There were various spelling errors, et cetera, but 14 as I mentioned, with respect to what I did review, I believe 15 it was accurate. 16 Q Do you have any reason to believe that in that 17 which you claim not to have reviewed there's any 18 inaccuracies? 19 A I don't know. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I will ask the 21 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 11. This is the re-notice 22 of deposition requiring your attendance here today. 23 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 11 was 24 marked for identification.) 25 9 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you receive this document? 3 A Yes. 4 Q When did you receive it? 5 A I'm sorry, I don't recall the specific date, but I 6 did receive it. 7 Q Within the last few weeks, last few months, roughly 8 speaking? 9 A Guesstimating only, maybe within the last month. 10 I'm not sure. 11 Q Did you have an opportunity to review the document 12 thoroughly when you received it, or thereafter? 13 A Yes. 14 Q The notice of deposition requires the production of 15 certain documents at Appendix A. Are you producing any 16 documents today in response to that document request? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is everything you're producing newspaper articles? 19 A For the most part, yes. 20 Q What do you mean by "for the most part?" There are 21 some book articles? 22 A Would you like me to describe them for the record? 23 Q Yes. 24 A Okay. There are luggage tags relating to the trip 25 to China. 10 1 Q Can I see them? 2 A Yes. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the photocopy of these 4 luggage tags be made Exhibit 12. 5 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 12 was 6 marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You produced a photocopy of these luggage tags, 9 correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q This was the trade mission to China for August 27 12 to September 3, 1994? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And you went on that trade mission, correct? 15 A Correct. Various newspaper articles. Do you want 16 me to describe each one? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Perhaps I can describe them. It 18 might be quicker. 19 I'll ask that be marked as Exhibit 13 an article 20 that appeared in the New York Times, Sunday, January 3, 1999, 21 with the title, "After Judges Review, Commerce Secretary 22 Widens Inquiry into Mishandling of Papers." 23 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 13 was 24 marked for identification.) 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that be marked as Exhibit 14 11 1 a newspaper article, a copy of which is provided by counsel 2 for Ms. Lew, in the Investors Business Daily, headlined "An 3 Inside Job At Commerce, Satellite Secrets Left Department 4 with Official," of -- I believe the article is of June 18, 5 1998, two pages. 6 THE WITNESS: June 18th or June 19th? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: June 19th. 8 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 14 was 9 marked for identification.) 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Another article in Asian Week 11 Magazine of March 25, 1999, entitled "Spy Hysteria" by Ling- 12 Chi Wang, L-i-n-g - C-h-i, last name W-a-n-g. I'll ask that 13 that be marked Exhibit 15. That's an original. 14 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 15 was 15 marked for identification.) 16 THE WITNESS: And then a copy of The Life and Times 17 of Ron Brown, written by his daughter, in which the trade 18 missions are mentioned. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: If you like, we can mark this, and I 20 will buy you another copy. I actually wanted to buy it 21 myself. 22 We'll get you a copy tomorrow. I'll send it to 23 your counsel. Thank you. 24 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 16 was 25 marked for identification.) 12 1 MR. GAGNER: Could you run through those again, 2 from 12 to 16, please? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 12 is the re-notice of the 4 deposition duces tecum. 5 MR. GAGNER: Isn't that 11? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me. You're right. That's 11. 7 12 are the luggage tags to the China trade mission. 13 is 8 the New York Times article of Sunday, January 3, 1999. 14 is 9 the Investors Business Daily Article of June 19, 1998. 15 is 10 the Asian Week March 25, 1999 edition, entitled "Spy 11 Hysteria." And 16 is the book, Life and Times of Ron Brown. 12 MR. GAGNER: Thank you. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Ms. Lew, did you conduct a search for the documents 15 that were requested in your re-notice of deposition? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Where did you search? 18 A My entire house and my office. 19 Q When you left the Department of Commerce, did you 20 take any documents with you? 21 A I took certain publications that were available 22 from the General Printing Office. I took my personal 23 calendar, and I took travel vouchers, I believe. 24 Q Were there any pages of your personal calendars 25 that related to the trade missions that are the subject of 13 1 this case? 2 A The working draft calendar I believe referenced 3 just the fact that I would be out of the office. 4 Q You haven't produced those pages, have you? 5 A I believe I produced them at the last deposition. 6 Q Was there any reference in those personal calendars 7 to John Huang? 8 A Not that I recall. 9 Q There may have been? 10 A Again, recalling things that were penciled in or 11 drafted in five and four years ago is something difficult to 12 remember, but since he and I did not work together and I do 13 not recall having meetings with him, it is highly unlikely 14 that he would be referenced in there. 15 Q What do you mean by you didn't work together? 16 A As I testified in my previous deposition, we did 17 not have any reason to attend meetings together, to exchange 18 papers, to et cetera. We did not -- our paths did not cross, 19 as I explained in my previous deposition. 20 Legal counsel for the Office of International Trade 21 was provided by the chief counsel for international trade and 22 her staff of attorneys, and generally speaking, I did not 23 interact with employees that were below assistant secretary. 24 Q This was your personal calendar, correct? 25 A Yes. 14 1 Q So it contained entries that weren't necessarily 2 related to the Commerce Department? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you interact in any way with John Huang outside 5 of the Commerce Department from the time you joined the 6 Commerce Department to the present? 7 A To today? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Okay. 10 Q And just refresh our recollection when you first 11 began at the Commerce Department. 12 A I began with the Commerce Department as a 13 consultant, sometime in 19 -- the summer of 1993, and then I 14 was confirmed as the general counsel in March of 1994. 15 As I testified earlier, I first met Mr. Huang after 16 he joined the Commerce Department. I can't recall where I 17 heard, but I had heard that he was joining the department and 18 I made a call to him and asked if he wanted to meet and to 19 get together for a drink, which we did do. 20 Q Why did you want to meet Mr. Huang? 21 A As I testified before, there aren't that many 22 Asian-Americans appointees, or weren't that many Asian- 23 American appointees. He was totally new to government, and 24 it was just a sort of a courtesy call, meet and greet type of 25 thing. 15 1 Q How did you learn about John Huang such that you 2 were able to call him? 3 A I'm not sure if I heard about it -- I heard about 4 it somewhere. I mean, I can't tell you where, whether it was 5 at an ITA meeting, perhaps. I don't recall. 6 Q Did you know what his background was at the time? 7 A I knew he had some sort of financial background. 8 Q Did you know anything more than that? 9 A He was from L.A. 10 Q Anything more than that? 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q Were there other Asian-American appointees at the 13 Commerce Department where you did the same thing, you called 14 them up and went to lunch with them? 15 A I believe I said that I went -- had drinks 16 with Mr. -- 17 Q Or drinks. Drinks, lunch, anything. 18 A A social -- 19 Q Outside of the department. 20 A I may have done that with Mr. -- I can't remember 21 his name now. I can't remember the gentleman's -- I think 22 it's T.S. Chung. I may have done that with him. I may have 23 done it with a couple of others. I'm not sure. 24 Q How did you learn of Mr. Chung such that you 25 invited him to have a meeting or whatever? 16 1 A I believe in his case, he called my office. 2 Q He called your office? 3 A I believe so. I don't recall. 4 Q Did you know what his background was before he 5 called your office? 6 A I believe he -- he was a lawyer from L.A. 7 Q Did you learn what his background was after you met 8 with him the first time? 9 A He may have told me, but I don't recall. 10 Q Did you have an opportunity to get together with 11 Mr. Huang in any way outside of the Department of Commerce, 12 after that first drink meeting? 13 A Not that I recall, no. And excuse me. You asked 14 me the question about contact with him from that point to the 15 present? 16 Q Right. 17 A The original question. I don't think I finished 18 answering that question. 19 Q Okay. 20 A So if I could go back to answer that question? 21 Q Sure. 22 A I saw him in the hallways, you know, around the 23 department, but that was really more, you know, "Hello, how 24 are you," type things. 25 I believe he once contacted my office and asked if 17 1 I would be a luncheon speaker at some Asian-American 2 government employees session. I don't know if I actually 3 talked to him or if he left a message. 4 Then my next recollection is his call to me, and I 5 believe I testified to this last time, when he either was 6 departing or had departed -- I can't remember which now 7 -- that he was leaving the department. 8 And I believe the next contact I had with him, as I 9 testified previously, was a phone message from him when I was 10 at SBA. I was on travel. He called my office, relayed the 11 message. I called him back. I got a voice mail, but we 12 never talked. I just said I was returning his call. 13 Then I believe I also testified that I saw him at 14 some gathering and said hello to him. That was in May of 15 '96, I believe. 16 And then, finally, a call one time that he left a 17 message asking for the names of some lawyers, and I believe I 18 testified to that as well, in my previous deposition. I 19 believe I gave him -- I called him back and left a voice mail 20 message with a couple of names, but I do not recall talking 21 to him. So that was probably in 1996, as well, and I have 22 not spoken to him since then. 23 Q Was that in and around October of 1996 that you 24 gave him or left him the names of those two lawyers? 25 A I can't recall. I could say it was fall, but I 18 1 don't know when. 2 Q Was it around the time that Judicial Watch was 3 seeking to take his deposition testimony? 4 A I can't recall. As I mentioned, I know it was 5 sometime in the fall, maybe late summer. 6 Q Did he call you and leave a message asking for 7 names of lawyers? 8 A Correct, on my message machine. 9 Q At home? 10 A I don't know if it was at home or the office. I 11 can't remember. It must have been at home, because I don't 12 have -- I did not have voice mail at the office. 13 Q Did he tell you why he needed lawyers in that 14 message? 15 A No, he did not. 16 Q Did you ever speak with him and ask him why he 17 needed lawyers? 18 A I don't recall speaking to him about that, no. 19 Q Do you recall speaking to him about anything else 20 in that period? 21 A No. 22 Q I take it that's the full extent of your contact 23 with Mr. Huang from the point you started at Commerce to the 24 present? 25 A Correct. 19 1 Q And you haven't had any contact with Mr. Huang, 2 direct or indirect, outside of the Commerce Department during 3 that period? 4 A Correct. 5 Q You haven't been working on any matters that Mr. 6 Huang was also working on outside of the Department of 7 Commerce from the point you began at the Commerce Department 8 to the present? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, vague. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could you rephrase that, Mr. 11 Klayman? I didn't understand it myself. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q I take it that you didn't work on anything with Mr. 15 Huang, either in terms of him personally or with regard to 16 any groups or organizations or business entities that he was 17 working with, from the point you started with the Department 18 to the present? 19 A I -- I'm not sure if I still understand the 20 question. 21 Q Okay, let me see if I can rephrase it. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Your testimony was you didn't work on anything with 24 Mr. Huang at the Commerce Department, correct? 25 A Correct. 20 1 Q Outside of the Commerce Department, was there 2 anything that you were working on that Mr. Huang was also 3 working on, from the period you began at the Commerce 4 Department to the present? 5 A At one time, he served, or there was a committee 6 called the -- I can't remember the name of it now. It was 7 some sort of group that was convened by Doris Matsui who was 8 in the Office of Public Liaison. 9 We met a couple of times, or at least I attended 10 only a couple of meetings, and supposedly he was part of this 11 group, but he was never at the meetings that I was at, so I 12 don't know if he actually ever worked on this. 13 Q Was this group highly publicized at the time? 14 A I'm not sure I understand the term "highly 15 publicized." 16 Q Was it made known publicly that such a group 17 existed? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, outside the scope. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What does this have to do with the 20 subject? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Contact with Mr. Huang. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. If you can, answer it. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it was widely 24 publicized or publicly known. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 1 Q When you testified as to the Office of Public 2 Liaison, you are referring to the Office of Public Liaison in 3 the White House? 4 A Correct. 5 Q The office that at that time was run by Alexis 6 Herman, correct? 7 A I don't know if she was still there. I don't know 8 -- to answer the question, I mean, I don't know the 9 information. 10 Q You are aware that the Office of Public Liaison, at 11 a minimum, arranged for briefing sessions at the White House 12 for participants on trade missions, correct? 13 A Do I have that personal knowledge? 14 Q Well, just tell me what -- 15 A I do not have that personal knowledge, no. 16 Q Are you answering only with regard to personal 17 knowledge? 18 A I'm answering with respect to what I know. 19 Q Now, do you know whether, from other sources, other 20 than your having witnessed it yourself, that the Office of 21 Public Liaison arranged briefing sessions at the White House 22 for trade mission participants? 23 A They may have, but I don't -- I don't recall them. 24 Q Did you ever have discussions with Alexis Herman 25 about trade missions? 22 1 A Not that I recall. 2 Q I don't understand what you mean, not that you 3 recall. 4 A Again, you're asking me to recall conversations 5 that are almost five years old, and I don't recall speaking 6 to her about trade missions at all. 7 Q Did you ever have any such discussions about trade 8 missions with Harold Ickes at the White House? 9 A No. 10 Q With Hillary Clinton? 11 A No. 12 Q With President Clinton? 13 A No. 14 Q With Leon Panetta? 15 A No. 16 Q John Podesta? 17 A No. 18 Q Amy Sistook? 19 A I don't know who she is. 20 Q She was an assistant for Alexis Herman. 21 A Oh. No. I mean, I can say, that I don't know who 22 she is. 23 Q Did you ever attend briefing session for trade 24 missions at the White House? 25 A No. 23 1 Q Do you know of others who did? 2 A If anyone did, the Secretary may have, but that 3 -- that would be my natural assumption. 4 Q Did you or anyone else at the Commerce Department 5 prepare briefing books for participants on trade missions? 6 A I did not. 7 Q Do you know of those who did? 8 A People in the Office of International Trade 9 Administration did, Business Liaison. Again, I'm trying to 10 remember the names of some of these offices. Advocacy. I 11 know certainly my Office of Chief Counsel for International 12 Affairs prepared my materials for my portion of the trip. 13 Q Who else participated in preparing briefing 14 materials? 15 A It would really cut across the entire department, 16 because depending upon the scope and issues that were being 17 covered in a particular trade mission, if there was an 18 environmental issue, perhaps NOAA was involved. 19 If it was whether service issues, again -- I 20 remember there was some discussion about that on one of the 21 trade mission -- the Weather Service was involved with that, 22 as well. 23 If there was intellectual property issues, then 24 probably Ms. Lewis' office was involved. 25 There could have been general policy questions. 24 1 So it just depended upon whatever was being covered 2 on the trade mission. 3 Q Did you ever attend meetings at the White House 4 with the President? 5 A Ever? 6 Q Yeah. 7 A As to a specific time, or ever? 8 Q During the time you were at the Commerce 9 Department. 10 A I believe I attended a session where he greeted the 11 members of the business delegation, or it was called a 12 sendoff, I guess it was, the members of the delegation before 13 they left for China. We literally went there, I think the 14 business delegation. He said a few words. They shook hands. 15 We got on the bus and left for Andrews Air Force Base. 16 Q That was a briefing session, was it not? 17 A No. It was just a "Wonderful, great to see you and 18 meet you." It was as -- it was termed and characterized as a 19 sendoff. There was no substance. I don't recall any 20 substance. It was more, as I say, just a greeting. 21 Q The President attended that sendoff, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Vice President Gore attended that sendoff, correct? 24 A I don't recall him being there. 25 Q Who from the White House attended the sendoff? 25 1 A My recollection is it was the President. 2 Q What did he say? 3 A I have no remembrance of recollection of what he 4 said. I think it was very general. My recollection of it 5 was it was, like I say, it was a very general, "It's 6 wonderful you're doing this, great that you're going," type 7 of thing, but that's my recollection. 8 Q John Huang was there? 9 A Not that I recall. I believe I was the only Asian- 10 American appointee there. 11 Q Was Charlie Trie there? You know Charlie Trie, 12 don't you? 13 A I have met Mr. Trie. I do not know Mr. Trie. 14 Q Was he at that meeting? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know Johnny Chung? 17 A I have testified previously that I do not know Mr. 18 Chung. 19 Q Was T.S. Chung there? 20 A I think I just previously said that I was the only 21 Asian-American appointee. 22 Q Going back to your earlier questions, did you ever 23 meet, when you started at the Commerce Department, with a 24 Hoyt Zia? 25 A He was hired after I was at the Commerce 26 1 Department, yes. 2 Q Did you take him to drinks, too? 3 A We may have had a lunch or we may have had coffee. 4 I can't recall. 5 Q Did you have more than one meeting with him? 6 A I met with him on a regular basis as the chief 7 counsel for BXA. I met with all the chief counsels on a 8 regular basis, and he was one of the chief counsels. 9 Q BXA is Bureau of Export Administration? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you meet with him socially? 12 A I've never been to his house. I've never had 13 dinner with he and his wife. I've never -- we have met at 14 gatherings, again, such as Asian-American Heritage Month type 15 things, the Congressional Asian Pacific dinner, at the -- he 16 attended the Asian-American Bar sessions, which I also 17 attended, so I saw him there. 18 Q At that sendoff session with the President, did you 19 talk to the President, one-on-one, or in his presence? 20 A No. No. Everybody was clustered around him. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 22 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. This is a photocopy of 23 a photograph. 24 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 17 was 25 marked for identification.) 27 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q If you would like to see the original of that 3 photograph -- 4 A Thank you. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask Mr. Holley to take a picture 6 of it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Is that a photograph depicting that sendoff 9 session? 10 A Yes. 11 Q This is the sendoff session that you attended, 12 correct? 13 A Correct. Do you want this back? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. You can keep it right there 15 with all the other exhibits. I'll then show you what I'll 16 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 18. 17 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object, 18 unless Mr. Klayman can tie this up to Department of Commerce 19 documents. We're looking at a bunch of pictures. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to identify some people, Your 21 Honor. This is discovery that may lead to discovery. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please proceed. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Looking at Exhibit 17 -- I'll let you see the 25 original -- can you identify, in clockwise fashion, the 28 1 people sitting around that table, after the President? We 2 obviously know him. 3 A I'm not sure how I would identify for the purposes 4 of the record. Do I just point them on the -- 5 Q Yeah, just their names. 6 MS. BRASWELL: I think you're going to need to say, 7 looking at the President, "The first person to his right" -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 10 MS. BRASWELL: -- "the second." 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Otherwise, the record will be 14 totally unclear. 15 THE WITNESS: That's what I was asking. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Right. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. The first person to his 18 left -- okay? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Yeah. 20 THE WITNESS: I do not know who that is. The 21 second person to his left is Secretary Brown. The third 22 person is -- 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q You mean to the President's right? 25 MS. BRASWELL: No, to the President's left. 29 1 THE WITNESS: The President's left. It would be to 2 his right as we look at the picture, but it is to the 3 President's left. This is to the President's left. 4 The second person to his left -- are we clear? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Yeah. 6 THE WITNESS: -- is Ron Brown. The third person 7 to his left is, I think, Bernie Schwartz; I'm not sure. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Of Loral? 10 A I believe so. I'm not sure, but I believe so. 11 Q Okay. Who is sitting behind Mr. Schwartz? 12 A A staffer, and I cannot remember his name. I don't 13 know who that is. And to -- the fourth person to the 14 President's left, I cannot tell who that is. 15 Now, the next person over, that you can see a 16 portion of his head at the top here, this -- 17 MS. BRASWELL: At the bottom right corner of the 18 picture? 19 THE WITNESS: At the bottom right corner of this 20 picture -- 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Right. 23 A -- I'm going to make a guess, but it looks like 24 Mack McLarty, but I'm not sure. I do not -- so now -- this 25 is getting a little difficult. But this individual, whose 30 1 head -- I don't know who that is. 2 MS. BRASWELL: That would be the person to the left 3 of -- 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q If you can show that to the camera and then point 6 at it, that would be helpful. 7 A Okay. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 9 MS. BRASWELL: But we need, for the written record, 10 you've just pointed to the person who is to the left of the 11 individual you think is Mack McLarty; is that correct? 12 THE WITNESS: I believe that's -- 13 MS. BRASWELL: Is that who you're now trying to 14 describe? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: And to that person's left, I can't 18 tell you who that is. I don't know. And to that person's 19 left -- 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q The person you just identified was the bald-headed 22 guy? 23 A The bald-headed individual. 24 Q Okay. 25 A To his left, a gentleman that's wearing glasses, I 31 1 don't know who that is. And the gentleman to his left, who 2 is wearing a grey suit, I do not know who he is. 3 The next person, I can't tell who that is, next to 4 the person in the grey. And the next person to him, with the 5 bald hair -- head, I can't see his face, so I can't tell. 6 And there appears to be a person next to the bald- 7 headed gentleman, but I -- I'm not sure if that's true. The 8 person next -- there appears to be another person next to the 9 -- I'm sorry. I'm pointing. There seems to be a little 10 small head here, but I can't tell if there is one, actually. 11 There is definitely a head there, but I can't tell 12 who it is. There is a picture of an individual here, and -- 13 MS. BRASWELL: You're in the left corner of the 14 picture, when the mantle is right near his head? 15 THE WITNESS: Right next to the mantle, yes. And I 16 cannot tell who that is. There appears to be somebody next 17 to him, but I can only see a fraction of his head. There 18 appears to be a person next to him, right underneath the 19 mantle. I -- 20 MS. BRASWELL: Is he wearing glasses? 21 THE WITNESS: He's wearing glasses. He's in 22 between the vase and the clock. I cannot tell who that is. 23 The person right directly underneath the clock is, I believe, 24 Mr. Fisher from Kodak. 25 There's a gentleman next to his left. I do not 32 1 know who he is. The gentleman next to him, I don't recall 2 his name. There appears to be somebody sitting behind the 3 gentleman in the blue suit and a blue shirt, and I can't tell 4 who that is, nor do I know who the person is with the blue 5 shirt and dark-colored suit. 6 MS. BRASWELL: And is he wearing glasses? Can you 7 tell? 8 THE WITNESS: He may be, but I can't tell. 9 MS. BRASWELL: Are we talking about the individual 10 whose head appears under the statue? Are we talking about 11 this person right here? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. The statue is -- appears to 14 be behind him. 15 THE WITNESS: There is a woman, African American 16 woman, and i do not know who she is. I remember her 17 business, but I don't remember her name. Her business, she 18 made dolls or something. 19 There's a gentleman next to her, and I do not know 20 who that is. And there's a gentleman to the President's 21 immediate right, and I do not know who that is. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you what I'll ask the 23 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 18. 24 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 18 was 25 marked for identification.) 33 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q This is another photograph at that briefing 3 session, is it not, Ms. Lew? 4 A The send-away session. 5 Q Send-away session. 6 A I'm sorry. Yes. 7 Q Have you ever reviewed the testimony of James 8 Hackney in this case? 9 A No. 10 Q Mr. Hackney referred to these sessions as briefing 11 sessions. Do you take issue with that? 12 A I can only know -- I can only relate to what I knew 13 them to be, which were a sendoff session. 14 Q During this particular session, did the President 15 discuss financial support for the Democratic Party? 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q Did he make reference to "Thank you for your 18 support," something to that effect? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q You just don't remember? 21 A I don't remember, no. 22 Q Did he thank the people for making contributions to 23 the Democratic Party? 24 A I would have remembered if he said something like 25 that, and I do not recall him saying that. 34 1 Q Why would you have remembered that? 2 A That would have seemed totally inappropriate. 3 Q Why is that? 4 A This was a send-away session on a mission to -- I 5 wouldn't understand the linkage to contributions. 6 Q Do you consider it would have been inappropriate if 7 he said "Thank you for your support"? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. That's a vague 9 statement. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I just want to get the state of mind, 11 Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, did the President discuss, 13 at that session, anything having to do with the fact that any 14 of the people in the room may have made contributions, either 15 personally or with the businesses with which they are 16 associated, to either his campaign or the Democratic National 17 Committee? 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: The other question is, Your Honor, if 20 he just said "Thank you for your support," without making 21 reference to particular contributions? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you remember him saying those 23 words, "Thank you for your support?" 24 THE WITNESS: He may have, but I don't recall. I 25 mean, he's -- I think he says that in just about every 35 1 public, televised statement I've ever seen him make. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Would you have considered that inappropriate, if he 4 had said "Thank you for your support"? 5 A No. 6 Q Why is that? 7 A For supporting America for promoting American 8 businesses, "Thank you for your support," that would be very 9 appropriate. 10 Q One form of support, based on your experience, is 11 financial, is it not? 12 A What experience are you referring to, sir? 13 Q In the political arena. 14 A Since I have very little experience in the 15 financial arena, financial area of the political arena, I 16 find that a difficult question to respond to, because I'm not 17 sure -- support, in my mind, applies equally to people who 18 volunteer, stuff envelopes and lick stamps. It applies to 19 people who do get out the vote. 20 Q Vice President Gore was at that meeting, correct? 21 A According to this picture. 22 Q That refreshes your recollection that he was there? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And did Mr. Gore make reference to financial 25 contributions at that meeting? 36 1 A Not that I recall. 2 Q You just don't remember? 3 A Again, if there had been some reference to 4 financial contributions, it would have seemed out of place, 5 and I probably would have remembered it. 6 Q Well, given the fact that you claim you never had 7 any exposure to the financial side of fund-raising, how would 8 you have formed an opinion that that would have been 9 inappropriate? 10 A This seemed to be an official function, official 11 sendoff, and it was always my understanding that the White 12 House attempted to keep political activities separate from 13 fund-raising activities. 14 Q Where did you learn that from? 15 A Well, certainly when you -- I can only extrapolate 16 on that point, because when Ms. Fredericks would advise the 17 Secretary about whether or not he could participate in any 18 type of, or attend -- 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, to the extent that there 20 is any attorney-client information that's being sought by 21 that question. Any information that Ms. Fredericks gave to 22 the Secretary that would have been legal advice that he 23 sought is subject to the attorney-client privilege. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, not if it relates to this 25 particular matter, which is a core issue in the case. 37 1 MS. BRASWELL: No, Your Honor -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Re-read the question and answer, 3 please. 4 (The reporter read back the record.) 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: To answer that question, Ms. Lew, 6 must you summarize or recount any legal advice ever given by 7 this Ms. Fredericks -- who I take it is an attorney? 8 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: To Secretary Brown? 10 THE WITNESS: Correct. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Were you present when that legal 12 advice was given? 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then how are you aware of its 15 existence? 16 THE WITNESS: If I can step back for a moment? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 18 THE WITNESS: That whenever the Secretary was asked 19 to participate in non-official activities, there had to be 20 like an allocation of expenses, et cetera, and that was just 21 general -- general government, I mean department practice. 22 So I believe -- I mean, so I just extrapolated that 23 you don't mix the two. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But that is your extrapolation. 25 THE WITNESS: Correct. 38 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And it's not based on any legal 2 advice you herd Ms. Fredericks give to the Secretary? 3 THE WITNESS: Correct. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Obviously, the attorney-client 5 privilege is not broken. Okay? 6 MS. BRASWELL: No. It appeared to me, Your Honor, 7 that she was about to divulge attorney-client information. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's fine. Let's proceed. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q So it was your understanding that, at the Commerce 11 Department, you were not to mix official business with fund- 12 raising? 13 A That you could not use official time to engage in 14 political activities. 15 Q And that you could not use taxpayer money to engage 16 in political activities? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Consequently, if seats on trade missions were sold 19 for campaign contributions, offered for campaign 20 contributions to the Democratic Party, it was your 21 understanding that that would be illegal? 22 A Well, since I do not know or have any knowledge 23 whether that occurred, I can't have an opinion about that. 24 Q Well, you can have an opinion about that. Given 25 the foundational facts and opinions that you've just 39 1 registered, that you shouldn't mix official business with 2 political activities -- 3 A Correct. 4 Q -- if seats on trade missions were offered to 5 political campaign contributors, based upon your experience, 6 would that be illegal? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, calls for a legal 8 conclusion. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why is she competent to speak to 10 that issue, and why is her competence at issue? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: She was general counsel of the 12 Commerce Department. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But she is being asked to give a 14 legal opinion with reference to a certain given set of facts, 15 is that right? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and the reason is that here we 17 have the President and the Vice President placed at a meeting 18 with business executives who are going on a trip to China, 19 many of whom have given political contributions to the 20 Democratic Party and Clinton-Gore campaign, not in dispute, 21 particularly Mr. Schwartz, and I asked her a series of 22 questions, whether there were discussions about political 23 contributions. 24 She said she would have remembered that, if it was 25 made, if those comments were made, because it would have been 40 1 inappropriate. So this is just a continuation of the line of 2 questioning. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But now we've gone to a somewhat 4 different area. We are asking her to give a legal opinion 5 with reference to a practice that may or may not have been 6 engaged in, and I don't really see the relevance of that 7 legal opinion to anything that's before us today. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Because I'm getting to state of mind 9 and intent. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Her intent? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Her intent, the intent of others that 12 work around her, because obviously, there is a record of 13 documents not having been produced here. There's a record of 14 testimony which has not been true. The Court documented that 15 in its orders of December 22, 1998. 16 And for her to say that "I would have remembered 17 that because such remarks would have been improper" bears on 18 her state of mind as to why it was improper. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I find that 20 incomprehensible. I don't think the Court has been given any 21 further information as to why this question should be 22 answered by this witness. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, it's not 24 incomprehensible. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to sustain the 41 1 objection. I don't think her opinion is relevant at this 2 point. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask for reconsideration, on 4 this basis. She said, Your Honor -- and she raised the 5 issue, it wasn't me -- she raised the issue that she would 6 have remembered that comment because that comment would have 7 been improper. And I'm allowed to ask her whether she has 8 knowledge as to why it's improper. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, then, maybe you can inquire 10 of her, if you wish, whether during the course of her 11 experience at the Department of Commerce she ever looked into 12 that question, which I think is a different issue from what's 13 happening now, which is she's been given a hypothetical set 14 of facts and asked to give her legal opinion on them. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me ask it a different way. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She's not -- I don't understand 17 why her qualifications to give that opinion and her giving it 18 bear on any issue in the case. 19 I could understand why you were of the view, Mr. 20 Klayman, that if Ms. Lew were to say whatever she is about to 21 say about the propriety or impropriety of that practice, it 22 would bear on whether the people we have been discussing in 23 these depositions did or did not do something wrong. I 24 certainly concede that. 25 But I'm not certain I understand why that has 42 1 anything to do with her knowledge -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'm not trying -- 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- that is, that has to do with 4 the creation of documents with reference to trade missions, 5 the participation of the DNC in the creation of those 6 documents, the transmittal of those documents to the 7 Department of Commerce, and the destruction or removal of 8 those documents from the Department of Commerce. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the reason is, Your Honor, 10 because we have been charged by the Court to take discovery 11 to determine not just removal, suppression, destruction of 12 documents and other evidence, but also with regard to certain 13 testimony that had been provided. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: And the Court has given us, in 16 effect, the ability to take discovery on the showings of 17 misconduct, among other matters; and therefore, state of mind 18 is important in that regard. 19 I'm not trying to prove here whether it is or is 20 not illegal. I'm just trying to establish state of mind. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Whose state of mind? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Her state of mind. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Lew's state of mind? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Lew's state of mind. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: At what point? 43 1 MR. KLAYMAN: At any point during these trade 2 missions. And she brought the issue into question by herself 3 stating that "I would have remembered a statement about 4 political contributions, because that was improper." And 5 this is a follow-up to that, and I should be permitted, in 6 all due respect, to get into that. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, to what extent do you want 8 to get into it? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me try a different way of asking 10 the question. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right, try again. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q During your years in government service, did you 14 ever learn that to mix political fund-raising with government 15 services was illegal? 16 A At some point in time, I was briefed on the Hatch 17 Act. 18 Q It calls for a "yes" or "no," my question. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask about the Hatch Act. 21 MS. BRASWELL: The witness can answer the 22 question -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: When you were briefed on the Hatch 24 Act -- well, finish your answer, Ms. Lew. Why would briefing 25 on the Hatch Act have anything to do with what Mr. Klayman 44 1 just asked you? 2 THE WITNESS: Because the Hatch Act -- and it's 3 been -- I apologize to the Judge and to the Court. It's been 4 a while since I've had anything to do with the Hatch Act. 5 But the Hatch Act basically prohibited certain 6 types of activities of government employees and allowed other 7 types of political activities of government employees. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Therefore, you answered Mr. 9 Klayman's question as you did because that briefing discussed 10 those issues? 11 THE WITNESS: In terms of, you know, you couldn't 12 use government telephones for political activities, you 13 couldn't certainly use -- I can't remember -- a government 14 car, things like that. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can't use government resources to induce 18 political campaign contributions, correct; that's what you 19 learned? 20 A I believe I said to engage in certain types of 21 political activities. 22 Q And those types of political activities would 23 include fund-raising, correct? 24 A I'm not sure if I remember that now. I mean, I 25 don't -- I don't recall. I mean, like I say, it's been 45 1 several years since I've looked at the Hatch Act or had any 2 reason to use it or come across it. 3 Q You limited your answer to the Hatch Act, but you 4 do know just generally that you're not to conduct fund- 5 raising by using government resources, correct? 6 MR. GAGNER: I'm going to object, Your Honor. It 7 again calls for what's probably a legal opinion, and it 8 doesn't appear to be relevant to an issue in the case. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, it bears on the issue in the 10 case in the sense that the destruction of documents in this 11 case, or their removal, may have been motivated by the 12 perception of those people who may have engaged in those 13 activities that it was important to destroy documents that 14 indicated possibly violations of law, including the Hatch 15 Act, so there is a connection there, and there is a 16 connection between the events that may be recounted in 17 documents and the motivation someone might have not to 18 produce them or to destroy them. 19 Therefore, these witnesses, it seems to me, it is 20 an appropriate inquiry for Mr. Klayman to inquire whether or 21 not they had an understanding that a particular activity that 22 might be reflected in this document was not proper. 23 MR. GAGNER: Yes, Your Honor. The difficulty is if 24 it's phrased in a way that appears to be calling for an 25 expert opinion, then that's problematic. 46 1 If it's "Your understanding as a government 2 employee was," then it's a different issue. 3 MS. BRASWELL: Which has already been asked and 4 answered, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Lew, let me see if you can 6 help me. 7 In your capacity as general counsel, was it your 8 responsibility, as opposed to someone else, to give legal 9 advice with reference to the applicability of statutes such 10 as the Hatch Act to the activities of persons employed by the 11 Secretary of Commerce, including high-ranking officials? 12 THE WITNESS: Such advice from counsel is given by 13 the assistant general counsel for administration, I think 14 administrative law. I've forgotten the name of that 15 division, but basically Ms. Fredericks' office. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Was that done under your 17 supervision? 18 THE WITNESS: I delegated that directly to her. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But prior to the 20 delegation, to your delegating it, had you made an 21 independent study of that body of the law? 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So therefore, in response to the 24 questions that Mr. Klayman has asked you about your 25 understandings, what was the source of that understanding? 47 1 THE WITNESS: In part, when I entered the 2 Department, I was given a Hatch Act briefing. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I take it you learned from 4 that briefing that, as you explained to us, that one is 5 supposed to keep segregated one's political activities from 6 one's governmental services? 7 THE WITNESS: Correct. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, the question I think Mr. 9 Klayman was asking you was, in your view, would the 10 commingling of those two functions be appropriate or 11 inappropriate, as you understand the obligations imposed upon 12 federal public servants by the law? 13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, the commingling of 14 political activity -- 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Political activities and 16 government services. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe it would be inappropriate. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Ms. Fredericks worked under your direction and 21 supervision, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 24 reporter to mark as Exhibit 19. 25 48 1 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 19 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Ms. Lew, have you seen Exhibit 19 before? 5 A No, sir, I have not. 6 Q This is a document prepared by the Democratic 7 National Committee, DNC Managing Trustee Events and 8 Membership Requirements. 9 It lists, at Point 5: "Annual Economic Trade 10 Missions. Managing trustees are invited to participate in 11 foreign trade missions, which affords opportunities to joint 12 party leaders in meeting with business leaders abroad." 13 "To become a member of this program," it says at 14 the bottom, "managing trustee membership requires a 15 contribution of $100,000 annually." 16 Based upon your prior testimony, is this the type 17 of activity that you view as improper, if Department of 18 Commerce trade missions were, in fact, the missions that were 19 being offered in this brochure? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Your Honor, I'd like to 21 explain my objection without the witness here, please. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Lew, would you please step 23 out? You can go right here in this courtroom. 24 (Witness leaves the room.) 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Ms. Braswell. 49 1 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, Mr. Klayman continually 2 with witnesses asks them this question, and assumes that the 3 foreign trade missions here are Department of Commerce trade 4 missions. 5 In fact, Mr. Klayman is well aware that the DNC has 6 gone on record and said that the trade missions referred to 7 in this brochure are DNC trade missions, they are not 8 Department of Commerce trade missions. 9 It is manifestly unfair to put this before a 10 witness with the implication that it is established that what 11 is referred in here is a Department of Commerce foreign trade 12 mission when, in fact, there is absolutely no evidence in 13 this case which would demonstrate that that's what is 14 referred to here. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Braswell -- first of all, Ms. 16 Braswell, we understand she's relatively new to the case, 17 Your Honor. There has been testimony over and over again in 18 this case where I've asked if anyone has ever known of a 19 Democratic Party trade mission. No one has ever known of 20 one. 21 There is no statement that I recollect that that 22 ever occurred and even if there was, the overwhelming 23 majority of people have testified that there was no 24 Democratic Party trade mission. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, the Democratic National 50 1 Committee filed, on April 20th, a response to Mr. Klayman's 2 appeal of Your Honor's order regarding the DNC subpoena. 3 In this particular filing, the DNC discusses -- if 4 I can just find it -- this memorandum, which refers to trade 5 missions. It's also my understanding that Rod Stein 6 testified that these trade missions were, in fact, DNC trade 7 missions. 8 On Page 7 of the brief that the DNC talks about, it 9 refers to the DNC managing trustee brochure, which is this 10 particular document here, and the DNC says that "Judging from 11 the proceedings to date in this case, and the exhibits to 12 Judicial Watch's motion for the review and reversal of the 13 magistrate judge's order, Judicial Watch has made something 14 of a cottage industry of misrepresenting to federal courts 15 that a DNC brochure listing the benefits that were available 16 to DNC managing trustees included among those benefits seats 17 on official U.S. Department of Commerce trade missions" 18 -- and then cites to the plaintiff's memorandum. 19 "In fact, however, as the DNC previously has 20 pointed out, the reference in that brochure to `annual 21 economic trade missions' refers to private DNC-sponsored 22 trips. Instead of simply asking any of the knowledgeable 23 former DNC personnel about this, Judicial Watch apparently 24 prefers to attempt to perpetuate this myth." 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if we want to do a 51 1 special TV commercial, we can maybe set aside some time, but 2 that wasn't even my question. That wasn't my question. My 3 question said "if." And I'll be happy to phrase it that way. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think maybe even a better way to 5 do it would be, "Assuming for the sake of the argument that 6 the reference in Bullet Number 5 is to a foreign trade 7 mission conducted or operated by an agency of the United 8 States," and then your question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. But just for the record, since 10 that's on the record, that's argument in a brief, that's not 11 sworn testimony. No one in this case has ever pointed to one 12 concrete trade mission by the DNC, but I'm not here to argue 13 that, and I'll stipulate, I'm not trying to prove legality or 14 illegality. I'm just trying to prove state of mind; and I 15 will be happy to emphasize the use of the word "if." 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: "If" or "assuming." 17 MR. KLAYMAN: And we have other documents which do 18 refer to other matters -- 19 MS. BRASWELL: If he makes that caveat, Your Honor, 20 then that is fine. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 22 (Witness is recalled.) 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could you please reformulate your 24 question, Mr. Klayman? 25 52 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yes. Showing you Exhibit 19, if the reference here 3 -- if -- is to a Department of Commerce trade mission, based 4 upon your experience, would the offering of this trade 5 mission for $100,000 managing trusteeship membership in the 6 Democratic National Committee have been improper? 7 A Well, that's a difficult question to answer, in 8 part because you're asking me to speculate. If the reference 9 is just annual economic trade missions, it can refer to 10 missions organized by the Democratic National Committee, by 11 congressional committees, by whomever. 12 And I don't know if I would have experience -- I 13 might have an opinion about this, but I don't think -- 14 Q I'm asking you to assume, just for purposes of the 15 hypothetical. 16 A For the hypothetical? 17 Q I'm not trying to prove whether it happened or not 18 here, that this was a Department of Commerce trade mission 19 that was being referred to, or another one, perhaps an Energy 20 Department. Based upon your prior testimony and experience, 21 would this have been improper? Is that the type of thing you 22 were referring to? 23 A Based upon my prior opinion -- and I stress that as 24 an opinion, as opposed to having experience in this area 25 -- if this was referring to Department of Commerce trade 53 1 missions, it could conceivably be inappropriate. 2 I notice that it says, "are invited," but it does 3 not necessarily guarantee that they would participate. 4 Q I didn't ask you that question. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. The witness 6 answered the question to the best of her ability. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She answered the question. Why 8 don't you go on, Mr. Klayman? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Is there anything in this brochure that says that 12 if you're invited, somehow you get rejected later? 13 MR. GAGNER: Objection. It's argumentative. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The document, I think, speaks for 15 itself. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: That's true, Your Honor. 17 I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 18 mark as Exhibit 20. 19 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 20 was 20 marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever heard of a Martha Phipps? Do you 23 know Martha Phipps? 24 A Not that I recall. 25 Q Do you know of anyone who worked at the DNC whose 54 1 name is Martha Phipps? 2 A Not that I know of. 3 Q Do you know of an Ann Cahill? 4 A Yes, an Ann Cahill, yes. 5 Q Where did Ann Cahill work? 6 A I met her in the Transition Office in 1993. 7 Q Did she move on and work anywhere else after the 8 Transition Office? 9 A I don't know, because I think she had a baby and 10 stopped working for a while. 11 Q Do you know if she worked in the White House? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Did she work ever at the DNC, Democratic National 14 Committee? 15 A I don't recall that. I don't recall her saying 16 that to me. I don't know. 17 Q I'll show you what has been marked as Exhibit 20. 18 This is a memorandum of May 5, 1994 to Ann Cahill from Martha 19 Phipps, "White House Activities." Have you ever seen this 20 document before? Take an opportunity and read it. 21 A (Examining) No, I have not. 22 Q The document reads: "In order to reach our very 23 aggressive goal of 40 million this year, it would be very 24 helpful if we could coordinate the following activities 25 between the White House and the Democratic National 55 1 Committee." 2 Point 4: "Invitations to participate in official 3 delegation trips abroad. Contact Alexis Herman." 4 Now, does that refresh your recollection as to 5 whether or not seats on trade missions by any government 6 agency were being offered in exchange, in whole or in part, 7 for political campaign contributions? 8 A I have no such knowledge, sir. 9 Q Now, based on your prior testimony and your 10 experience, when you use the word "official," that means 11 government, correct? 12 A I would assume so, yes. 13 Q And consequently, if, indeed, this was occurring, 14 that the DNC and White House were raising up to $40 million 15 and offering invitations to participate in official 16 delegation trips abroad based on your prior testimony and 17 experience, that would be improper, correct? 18 A Well -- 19 Q It calls for a "Yes" or "No." 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If you can answer "Yes" or "No," 22 Ms. Lew, I'd appreciate it, and you can certainly can then 23 explain your answer, if you'd like. 24 THE WITNESS: It could. It would depend on the 25 circumstances. 56 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Under what circumstances, based on your experience, 3 can you offer an invitation to participate on an official 4 government delegation trade mission trip in exchange for a 5 campaign contribution? Under what circumstance would that be 6 proper? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Based on your experience. 10 MS. BRASWELL: He misstated the document. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked a question. It wasn't 12 necessarily based on the document. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 14 THE WITNESS: For a trade mission, I do not think 15 it would be appropriate. When I'm referring to this 16 "participate in official delegation trips," again, it could 17 be -- and I'm not sure if there is a linkage here between the 18 money, the 40 million, and the trips, in any event. 19 I'm trying to think of what type of trip might be 20 official, where it would be appropriate, but I don't have 21 enough experience in this area to say. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Sitting here today, are you still a political 24 appointee of the Clinton administration? 25 A No. 57 1 Q When did you leave government service? 2 A I left government service in January 1998. 3 Q Did you leave government service for any particular 4 reason? 5 A Yes. My husband wanted to return to California. 6 Q Is that where you live today? 7 A No. We didn't make it. 8 Q Who is your husband? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, irrelevant. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's not relevant. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q I'm just -- is your husband Jack Lew? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is your husband's name Jack? 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I've always wondered that. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now you don't have to wonder. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. Jack Lew is the director 19 of OMB. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Are you employed currently? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Who are you employed by? 24 A I'm with a private company in Washington, D.C. 25 Q What is the name of that company? 58 1 A It's called the Telecommunications Development 2 Fund. It is a venture capital fund. 3 Q Is that a public company or private company? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: Private. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Who owns that company? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: It's a non-stock company, 12 incorporated in Washington, D.C. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q A non-stock? What is a non-stock company? It is a 15 public interest group? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: There are no shareholders in the 19 company. I believe that's the way it's characterized. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Is it a corporation or a partnership or -- 22 A It's a corporation. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 THE WITNESS: It's a corporation. 59 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Who do you work with? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. None of this, Your 4 Honor, relates to permitted discovery in this case. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It might, in terms of the answer 6 to the question. Who she works with may bear on some of the 7 other characters we've been talking about. 8 THE WITNESS: There are a total of four employees, 9 including myself. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Who are they? 12 A One is a secretary named Cathy LaVoie. 13 Q How is that spelled? 14 A L-a-V-o-i-e. A gentleman named Oskian O-s-k-i-a-n 15 Kouzouian K-o-u-z-o-u-i-a-n, and Penny Pickett P-i-c-k-e-t-t. 16 Q Are there principals to this corporation? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't understand the 20 question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Are there principals to this corporation? 23 A You mean partners or officers? 24 Q Partners, officers, directors. 25 A Yes. 60 1 Q Who are they? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Your Honor, instead 3 of -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Answer this question, and that 5 will be it. I just want to make sure that these people have 6 no connection with this. 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Don Cornwell is the president, 8 and I am the treasurer-secretary. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Are there any other directors or officers? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Who are they? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's enough, Mr. Klayman. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let me do this, so we don't 17 spend any more time on this. You can ask her, at the 18 conclusion of the deposition, if any of the people she works 19 with have been mentioned in your prior questions as people 20 who might have something to do with this, but I think we're 21 gone far enough in this area. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask that she just be 23 sequestered for a few minutes? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, what we're going to do now 25 is, why don't we give our reporter a break? She needs one. 61 1 And while you're doing that, you can do whatever you want to 2 do. Did you want to talk to me? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, in the presence of counsel. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Go ahead and take a 5 break, Ms. Lew. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Are we going to discuss this off the 7 record, though? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: No, on the record is fine. 9 THE WITNESS: Should I go back to -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Or you can take a break. We're 11 going to just take five minutes, to give the reporter a 12 break, as soon as we finish this. 13 (Witness leaves the room.) 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask, Your Honor, that counsel 15 not discuss the substance of our conversations with Ms. Lew 16 while she's testifying, invoke the rule? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please, sure. All right. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Ms. Lew was in charge, she was 19 the general counsel. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Right. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Lew has acknowledged briefly this 22 morning, but it's also in her prior testimony, that she 23 worked with Hoyt Zia at the Bureau of Export Administration. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She said so. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Zia is a close friend of John 62 1 Huang. In fact, when Mr. Huang was seeking to evade this 2 court's subpoena, Mr. Huang tried to be in contact with Mr. 3 Zia. 4 Mr. Zia was in charge of reviewing export license 5 applications, which included high technology, some of which 6 went to China. Mr. Zia played a role in fund-raising with 7 Mr. Huang, admittedly, at the DNC. 8 Mr. Sockowitz, who worked underneath Ms. Lew, took 9 satellite encryptions -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm familiar with this. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: -- out of the Commerce Department, 12 usable in the telecommunications industry. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: And consequently, her presence in the 15 telecommunications industry, she may be associated with 16 people, if not the exact names that we've had come up, who 17 are also associated with some of the people who are alleged 18 to have passed this kind of information to foreign sources, 19 and that's why it's very, very important. 20 And that information was discussed and made part of 21 the trade trip. You had, for instance, Bernard Schwartz of 22 Loral on there. Mr. Schwartz, there's no dispute, his 23 company passed that information to the Chinese, passed that 24 kind of telecommunications information to the Chinese, 25 including missile technology. 63 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, in terms of 2 discovery, why isn't this permissible inquiry as to whether 3 the people she presently works with had any association with 4 some of the other people we have been discussing who were on 5 the trade mission trip, who are alleged, like Sockowitz, to 6 have removed documents from the Department of Commerce, even 7 though they had a highly important technological significance 8 to certain people? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It is discovery. 11 MS. BRASWELL: It is discovery, but it is supposed 12 to be discovery regarding documents at the Department of 13 Commerce, and the alleged removal or destruction of 14 documents. Judge Lamberth said that repeatedly, in his 15 opinion, that it was to be limited -- wait, can I just 16 finish? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Of course. I'm sorry. I didn't 18 mean to interrupt you. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Please. It seems to me that the 20 better way, rather than bringing a lot of innocent, 21 unconnected people's names into these depositions, is to ask 22 whether she is aware of whether or not anybody associated 23 with her firm had any connection with anyone who went on the 24 trade mission to China, rather than asking questions about 25 "Who is your firm," "Who are the officers"? 64 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But that leaves another area of 2 inquiry, in which Mr. Klayman is permissibly making the 3 inquiry, which is this troubling question, that Judge 4 Lamberth certainly talked about, about Sockowitz removing a 5 document, the significance of that removal for the 6 advancement of the technology of China. 7 MS. BRASWELL: But in this case -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Which in turn, as we've discussed, 9 would go back to give a motive to people to destroy documents 10 that pertained to that. So that's something -- 11 MS. BRASWELL: But there's got to be -- he's got to 12 make a connection. He could ask, for example, "Do any of the 13 individuals in your company have any association with Mr. 14 Sockowitz?" 15 There needs to be a foundation tying some of these 16 innocent people to some of the individuals we've talked about 17 before he starts bringing their names into this deposition. 18 It's unfair to them and it's unnecessary. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't understand how they will 20 be harmed merely by it being said that she now works with 21 them. 22 MS. BRASWELL: There has to be -- there has to be a 23 foundation to bring these people into this case. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The foundation is, as Mr. Klayman 25 has explained to us, that there is a connection between the 65 1 removal of these documents, particularly by Sockowitz, and 2 the development, as I understand it, of the Chinese 3 telecommunications industry. 4 MS. BRASWELL: But the only thing -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Therefore, the fact that a 6 Department of Commerce official went to work for people who 7 had some relationship with the trade mission or with that 8 other topic, the general topic of the transmittal of 9 telecommunications policy information to the Chinese, seems 10 to me to be reasonably likely to lead to relevant evidence. 11 MR. GAGNER: If I may, Your Honor, the way it's 12 harmful to these people has to do with what happens to these 13 depositions. 14 They appear on the Judicial Watch web sites, little 15 excerpts of them. They appear on television. They appear in 16 columns. Their names are bandied about throughout the 17 Internet. And, in many cases, they're people who have 18 absolutely nothing to do with the issues involved. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why don't we do this? Why don't 20 we permit the witness to answer the questions, and I will 21 place her answers under seal. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I think I can moot this out, 23 Your Honor. First of all -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: -- we're all in a public proceeding 66 1 that has a public significance. 2 No one has been bandied about the Internet or 3 airways more than me -- perhaps Ken Starr -- in terms of 4 attacks on me and on Judicial Watch, et cetera. So we're all 5 grownups and we all can accept that, within the bounds of the 6 law. 7 This issue, however, is public already. There is 8 an article on it. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who she works for now? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. And it's October 1998, and the 11 names are listed, publicly. 12 MR. GAGNER: Do you have more copies of that? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 14 MR. GAGNER: Thank you. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So it seems, Ms. Braswell and 16 counsel, that Ms. Lew reported to a reporter who these people 17 are. 18 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, how is that still 19 relevant to connecting these people to this case? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, because now we know who they 21 are. Now, the question is whether there is such a 22 connection. 23 MR. GAGNER: Yes. I think, Your Honor, that's what 24 ought to be asked. That is, is there any connection known to 25 her between any of these people and Commerce, or the trade 67 1 missions, or the delivery of documents or technology to the 2 Chinese or anybody else. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And is that where you're headed, 4 Mr. Klayman? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Mm-hmm. Yes. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. I think in light of this, 7 you can ask a few more -- you can, I suppose the fastest way 8 would be to just bring this to her attention, ask her if that 9 is an accurate statement of the people that on the board, and 10 if they have any connection whatsoever to the Department of 11 Commerce trade missions or the telecommunications problem 12 that you've discussed in previous depositions. Is that okay 13 with everyone? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. That's where I was headed. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Why don't we give our 16 court reporter five minutes, and see if we can get back here 17 at 11:40? 18 (A brief recess was taken.) 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Lew, I'm going to show you what 20 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 20 -- 21 THE COURT REPORTER: Twenty-one. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Twenty-one. This is an article 23 entitled -- 24 Do we have other copies? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. You gave us copies. 68 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, okay. It's by Robert H. 2 Schwaninger, S-c-h-w-a-n-i-n-g-e-r, Jr., headline, 3 "Barbarians at the Fund," October 1998. 4 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 21 5 was marked for identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you know a Mr. Robert Schwaninger, Jr.? 8 A I believe I've met him, yes. 9 Q Did you meet him in the context of him writing this 10 article or otherwise? 11 A Well, he did not tell me he was writing an article, 12 but I've met him, yes. 13 Q And have you seen this article before? I take it 14 you have. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Does this describe your current employer, the 17 acronym TDF, Telecommunications Development Fund? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And at the bottom of the first page, it says, 20 "Lew reported that the TDF board consists of Don Cornwell, 21 chairman" -- that's the person you just identified before the 22 break, correct? -- 23 A Right. 24 Q -- "Debra Lee," D-e-b-r-a, President of Black 25 Entertainment Television," correct? -- 69 1 A Yes. 2 Q -- "Richard Fields, of Allen Investment Group; 3 Thomas Hart, Washington telecommunications attorney (who is 4 the 'father' of the TDF); Jere," J-e-r-e, "Glover, an 5 official of the Small Business Administration; and FCC 6 Chairman Bill Kennard," K-e-n-n-a-r-d. "Kennard was 7 nominated to the board by former Chairman Reed Hundt. There 8 is one vacant spot on the board which was and remains to be 9 filled by an official of the U.S. Treasury Department." 10 Does this accurately describe the people who sit on 11 the board of directors of TED? 12 A The Treasury position has been filled. 13 Q And who fills that? 14 A A gentleman named Michael Barr. 15 Q How is that spelled? 16 A B-a-r-r. 17 Q This is the board. Are there officers of the 18 corporation that aren't listed here? 19 A As I mentioned, Mr. Cornwell is the president and I 20 am the secretary-treasurer. 21 Q Is this a government agency, the Telecommunications 22 Development Fund? 23 A No, it is not. 24 Q Is it a quasi-government agency? 25 A No, it is not. 70 1 Q Under what authority does it not have to issue 2 shares of stock? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 MR. GAGNER: Objection, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I want to know who the 7 shareholders are, if there are any, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Are there any shareholders of this 9 corporation? 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Are there any individuals associated with this 13 company who have done business in China? Other than 14 yourself. 15 A Well, excuse me. I don't think I've done business 16 in China, but -- 17 Q Well, you've been to China on a trade trip, right? 18 Several? 19 A I have been to China on visits, yes. But have I 20 done business there? I dispute that qualification. 21 Q Your purpose was to further American business 22 interests in China, correct? 23 A My purpose -- 24 Q The stated purpose. 25 A The stated purpose was to serve as the U.S. chair 71 1 of the commercial law group. 2 Q Okay. So does that constitute doing business in 3 China? 4 A When you said doing business, I interpreted that to 5 mean commercial business, as in transactions. 6 Q Well, you were furthering commercial transactions 7 of private American companies, correct? That was the goal. 8 A The goal was to bring greater transparency to the 9 system of law in China. 10 Q Okay. Well, my question was is there anybody who 11 works for or is a member of the board, is an official or who 12 has any association with this company who has ever done 13 business in China or had any relationship to China? 14 A Not to my knowledge. 15 Q How did you get your position on this board? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll see if I can ask it a different 19 way, Your Honor. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Was there someone who recommended you to this 22 board? 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 25 72 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Now, this board deals with -- correct me if I'm 3 wrong -- its purpose is to provide funding for small business 4 getting into the telecommunications sector? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'm trying to get enough 8 facts to do the link. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, a link to what? If you want 10 her to step out, I'll be glad to hear you as to what the link 11 is. 12 Ms. Lew, step out. 13 (Witness leaves the room.) 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Would it be possible to do something 15 similar to the way we handled Mr. Huang's deposition? Can I 16 give this to you on a separate transcript? I am a little bit 17 wary about laying out my whole line of questioning in front 18 of counsel here. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. I have a right, 20 Your Honor, when he seeks to ask a certain line of 21 questioning, to hear what his rationale is for why it's 22 relevant. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Here's where I think we were. 24 I thought we had agreed when the witness was absent last time 25 that the connection might be whether or not the people with 73 1 whom she is presently associated in business in turn did 2 business in China or have some connection to trade missions 3 or some connection to the distribution, proper or improper, 4 of technological information to China with reference to 5 various telecommunications issues. 6 With that topic exhausted, the work of this 7 particular firm doesn't strike me as being relevant at all to 8 anything we're doing. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like to ask a few more -- for 10 instance, some of the people that are listed here are with 11 companies that appear on the minority donor list. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, then proceed, then. That's 13 appropriate. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. And what I'm trying to develop 15 here is whether in effect she was working with Sockowitz and 16 participated in that removal for her own possible gain later. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: And that may go beyond -- that may go 19 beyond this company, just the very fact that she's now 20 associated with telecommunications shows a certain intent. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand, Mr. Klayman. That's 22 fine. Thank you. 23 Please get her. 24 (Witness is recalled.) 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Lew, I'm going to show you what 74 1 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 22. This is a 2 document which is titled Minority Donor List. It consists of 3 21 pages; we established that at the deposition yesterday of 4 Jude Kearney. 5 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 22 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 9 A No, I have not. 10 Q Did you have any knowledge as to whether or not a 11 minority donor list was found in the files of Jude Kearney at 12 the Commerce Department? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you have any such knowledge of 15 where this file was found? 16 THE WITNESS: No, I do not. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you heard from any source that a minority 19 donor list was found in the files of Jude Kearney at the 20 Commerce Department since your last deposition? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to the form of the 22 question. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: I believe I read about it in the 25 paper. 75 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you discussed that with anyone? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you had any discussions with Mr. Kearney since 5 your last deposition? 6 A I saw him at a Wolf Trap charitable event, which 7 was probably attended by a thousand, maybe 2,000 people, and 8 we said hello. 9 Q Any other occasion? 10 A No. 11 Q Appearing on this minority donor list is Ms. Sheila 12 Johnson of Black Entertainment Television. Do you know Ms. 13 Johnson? 14 A I'm sorry, where are you? 15 Q Let me just show it you. It's on the list. Sheila 16 Johnson, Black Entertainment Television. 17 MS. BRASWELL: What page are you on, please? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: These aren't numbered, I remember 19 from yesterday. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Who's listed at least at the top of 21 the page? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She is. 23 MS. BRASWELL: She is? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She's at the top. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: The sixth page from the back of the 76 1 document. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's the sixth page from the rear. 3 THE WITNESS: Do I know Ms. Johnson? 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Yes. Have you ever heard of her? 6 A I believe I have read about her in the newspaper. 7 Q In what respect? 8 A She's a relative of Mr. Robert Johnson. I'm not 9 sure what -- in what capacity she's a relative. 10 Q And who is Mr. Robert Johnson? 11 A He is the founder of Black Entertainment 12 Television. 13 Q Do you know whether or not Black Entertainment 14 Television or a representative of that entity ever went on a 15 trade mission of the Commerce Department, such as to South 16 Africa? 17 A I do not know. 18 Q Now, I notice that the chairman of your group TDF 19 is Debra Lee of Black Entertainment Television, correct? 20 A No, she's a member of the board. The chairman is 21 Mr. Cornwell. 22 Q Okay. Debra Lee is the president. I'm sorry, I 23 misread that. 24 A No, she's the president -- actually, this is 25 incorrect. She's the president of Black Entertainment, of 77 1 what's referred to as BET Holding Company. 2 Q All right. She's on the board, right? 3 A She's on the board of TDF. Correct. 4 Q Okay. Did you ever have any dealings with Black 5 Entertainment Television at the Commerce Department? 6 A No. 7 Q Is Ms. Lee associated in any way, either in the 8 past or presently, with the Democratic National Committee or 9 the White House? 10 A I do not know, sir. 11 Q Did she ever work for either of those two entities? 12 A I do not know, sir. 13 Q When you were at the Small Business Administration, 14 did you get involved in telecommunications matters? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: You mean with respect to small 18 business lending? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q With respect to anything. 21 A The only context I would have had with any type of 22 so-called telecommunications was I served as the SBA 23 representative to the TDF board at that time. 24 Q When was TDF founded? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 78 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Was it June 26, 1998? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: It was incorporated in 1998 some 6 time. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q How can a government representative have a position 9 on the board of directors of a private company at the same 10 time? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: The Telecommunications Development 14 Fund is a private corporation that was established by an act 15 of Congress as part of the 1996 Telecom Act, and the act 16 specifically calls for it to be a private corporation located 17 in the District of Columbia. 18 The statute also calls for the appointment of four 19 private sector members and three public sector members. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Who nominated you to the board? 22 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: I believe Mr. Lader did. 25 79 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q And Mr. Lader was -- 3 A The administrator of the SBA. 4 Q Did you ask him to be nominated to the board? 5 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How did it come to pass that you were nominated to 10 the board? 11 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you want to be on the board? 16 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Over -- I'm sorry. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: It's pretty innocuous. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you seek appointment to the 21 board, Ms. Lew? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a better way of putting it. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Because you were ready to do such 24 a thing in your life? 25 THE WITNESS: No, I did not seek it. 80 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you know why you were selected? 3 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Some of the companies -- have you played any role 8 with regard to your association with TDF with regard to 9 companies that are seeing financing? 10 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: I guess -- I'm sorry, I don't know if 13 I understand the question. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you have any knowledge as to companies that have 16 sought financing from TDF? Small companies? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Are any of these companies involved in satellite 22 technology? 23 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 81 1 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, no. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Are any of these companies involved in software? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: There may be. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What leads you to believe that there may be? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to recall. Yes. There 12 are some. Yes, there are some. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Are any of these companies involved in trying to 15 export software? 16 A To the best of my knowledge, no. 17 Q You're not sure? 18 A When we receive the application, we generally take 19 a review of the business plan, the business plan may or may 20 not say, so that's why I say I do not know. 21 Q Are any of the companies that have applied for 22 funding involved in encryption? 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 THE WITNESS: No. 82 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do any of the companies that have applied for 3 funding intend to export to China? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: No. I -- no. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Based on your prior experience, is there anything 9 in your background that qualifies you for this job, in your 10 opinion? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 12 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you have any prior telecommunications 16 background? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Were you appointed to this board because of your 22 ethnicity? 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 24 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 83 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q In part? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: The article references that, 7 Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, that's his view. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Is the funding of this company, does it come from 11 taxpayer funds? 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 13 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Where does the money come from? 18 A It comes from financial institutions paying 19 interest which is accumulated on the spectrum auction 20 deposits. 21 Q Are these monies donated by private industry? 22 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: The statute creating TDF 25 authorized -- let me back up. I do not know this for a fact, 84 1 but I have been led to believe that government agencies 2 cannot earn interest on monies that it holds. 3 When the FCC receives deposits from people who 4 want to participate in license bids, radio licenses, et 5 cetera, the FCC placed that money into a non-interest bearing 6 account. 7 The 1996 Telecom Act authorizes the FCC to place 8 the money into an interest bearing account in the financial 9 institution which pays that interest, deposits that interest 10 earned into the accounts of Telecommunications Development 11 Fund and that was designed by law. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So it's interest generated by government agencies 14 and by law government agencies can't keep the interest, so 15 they put it in the fund. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did I get that right? 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: No, you did not get that correct. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Tell me how I'm wrong. 23 MR. GAGNER: Objection, Your Honor. It's not 24 relevant. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. I think we've gone far 85 1 enough. Let's get back -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me ask this question. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- to the subject of the 4 deposition. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are there any companies that have donated to this 7 fund, private companies? 8 A No. 9 Q Are there any private companies that went on trade 10 missions at the Commerce Department that benefit from this 11 fund in any way? 12 A No. 13 Q Has Loral Corporation ever had any contact with 14 TDF? 15 A No. 16 Q Hughes Corporation? 17 A No. 18 Q Westinghouse? 19 A No. 20 Q GE? 21 A No. 22 Q Any computer companies? 23 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Again, that's part of the economy. 25 Can you answer that? 86 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how to answer that 2 question. Computer companies? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Companies that have as part of 4 their product line the selling of computer or computer 5 services in American industry, such as IBM, Compaq -- 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, no. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you talked to Mr. Sockowitz, Ira Sockowitz, 9 since your last deposition? 10 A No, I have not. 11 Q Have you talked to Lauri Fitz-Pegado since your 12 last deposition? 13 A No, I have not. 14 Q Have you seen either of these two people? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know if these two people have contacted the 17 TDF? 18 A I -- 19 Q Or people who work with them? 20 A I do not know. 21 Q Do you know where Ira Sockowitz is today? 22 A No, I do not. 23 Q Has anyone from a company called Iridium contacted 24 TDF? 25 A No. 87 1 Q Globalstar? 2 A No. Excuse me. I'm sorry. I -- my secretary I 3 think got a phone call from Ms. Fitz-Pegado's secretary, 4 because I received a Christmas card. 5 Q Since the date of your last deposition, have you 6 been interviewed by any federal or state authorities? 7 A I'm sorry, when was my deposition? 8 Q March 12, 1997. 9 A I don't believe so. I believe the interview with 10 Mr. Sockowitz -- investigators of that occurred before that 11 deposition, I believe. 12 Q I believe you testified to two people from the 13 inspector general. Is that what you're referring? 14 A Yes, that's right. Yes, that's correct. Yes. 15 Q Okay. Have you been interviewed by anyone else? 16 Any congressional investigators or independent counsels or -- 17 A No. 18 Q -- Justice Department? 19 A No. 20 Q State authorities? 21 A No. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let us return to the photograph, 23 which was the second one I showed you, with Vice President 24 Gore. 25 THE WITNESS: Is that -- 88 1 MR. KLAYMAN: There's two there. 2 THE WITNESS: No, no. I'm referring to the water. 3 MR. GAGNER: That's yours. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Can you tell me who is sitting on the side of the 7 table with Vice President Gore? To our left, looking at Vice 8 President Gore. And if you could hold that up to the 9 camera -- thank you. 10 A I'm sorry, our -- his right or his left? 11 Q As we look at him, I think it's easier for anybody 12 viewing the video to see it from their perspective, so to the 13 left of Vice President Gore. 14 A To my left. 15 MR. GAGNER: Away from the statue. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Away from the statue. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Is that Senator Toricelli? 19 A I don't know, sir. I don't know who that is. 20 Q Do you know who that is? 21 A No. 22 Q Sitting behind him smiling is Melissa Moss, right? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Okay. Who is sitting to the right of Vice 25 President Gore? 89 1 A I do not know. 2 Q To the right of that person? 3 A I think his name is Michael Lee or Michael Lamb or 4 something Lamb. I'm not sure. 5 Q Do you know what company he was with? 6 A No. No. 7 Q Who is sitting to the right of him? He's got his 8 hand on his neck. 9 A I do not know who he is. 10 Q Who is sitting behind him with the head -- 11 A Sort of in between -- 12 Q In between Mr. Lee and the guy with his hand on his 13 neck? 14 A Do you want me to do this (indicating)? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I do not -- you're referring to this gentleman 17 here? 18 MS. BRASWELL: You need to describe it, though, for 19 the record. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 22 THE WITNESS: The gentleman between the two who 23 appear to be Asian-Americans or ethnic individuals, I don't 24 know who that is. This person right here, correct? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 90 1 THE WITNESS: I do not know who that is. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And the person sitting behind the lady to the right 4 of the person with the hand on his neck? 5 A Under the statue? 6 Q Right. 7 A I do not know who that is. 8 Q And who is the lady that's there? 9 A Her name is Susan Diaz. 10 Q And who is she with? 11 A I don't remember. I think she just had her own 12 company. 13 Q And who is sitting to the right of her? 14 A I do not know. 15 Q And to the right of that individual? 16 A I believe I identified him as Mr. Fisher. 17 Q Okay. Can you hold that up so Mr. Holley, the 18 video operator, can zoom in on it? 19 This is Exhibit 18? 20 A I don't know. This doesn't have a number on it. 21 MR. GAGNER: It's 18, yes. 22 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, it is. 23 THE WITNESS: Is this supposed to have a number? 24 MS. BRASWELL: No. The photocopy does. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 91 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 2 reporter to mark -- 3 THE COURT REPORTER: Twenty-three. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: -- as Exhibit 23. 5 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 23 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q I'm showing you Exhibit 23 and I'll hold this up 9 for Mr. Holley. This is the original of that photograph. 10 Who is depicted in that picture? 11 A The four people, the four principals as opposed to 12 these individuals here? 13 Q Right. 14 A Mr. Rob Stein. 15 Q He was the Commerce Department chief of staff under 16 Ron Brown, correct? 17 A Correct. Melissa Moss. 18 Q Next to him to the right. 19 A Myself next to Melissa and Alexis Herman. 20 Q Okay. Does that refresh your recollection as 21 to whether you had contact with Ms. Herman over trade 22 missions? 23 A Well, to the extent that she was there and I saw 24 her, yes, that constitutes contact. 25 Q Okay. So your prior testimony was incorrect. 92 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: It's just that my recollection of my 3 prior testimony has been refreshed by this photograph. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In fact, this now refreshes your recollection that 6 Ms. Herman actually coordinated trade missions from the White 7 House, correct? 8 A Not -- I don't have any such knowledge. 9 Q In fact, Ms. Herman was the one who organized for 10 these send-off sessions, her office, Office of Public 11 Liaison. 12 A I don't have any such knowledge. 13 Q Ms. Herman actually recommended from time to time 14 participants on the trade missions, correct? 15 A I have no such knowledge, sir. 16 Q Do you know why Ms. Herman was there? 17 A No, I do not. 18 Q Did you talk to her during that send-off session? 19 A I probably said hello to her. 20 Q Had you met her before? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Where did you meet her first? 23 A Where did I first meet her? Sometime in 1993, but 24 I can't tell you -- I don't recall where or when. 25 Q I'll show what I'll ask the court reporter -- do 93 1 you remember the occasion of the meeting? 2 A Of when we met, first met? 3 Q Yes. 4 A No, sir. 5 Q Do you remember what you discussed? 6 A No, sir. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 8 reporter to mark as Exhibit 24. 9 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 24 10 was marked for identification.) 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm holding up the original Exhibit 12 24 for the videographer, Mr. Holley. 13 Are you able to get that? Okay. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Who is depicted in this photograph? 16 A Do you want me to -- 17 Q Yes. I take it that's Bill Clinton in the -- 18 A That's the President there. 19 Q If you could hold it so the video cam can see it. 20 Here, why don't you use the original. 21 A The President, I don't know who is standing behind 22 him. 23 Q Rob Stein? 24 A I can't tell. 25 Q And who -- 94 1 A And then myself, Secretary Brown, and I don't know 2 who that is. 3 Q Okay. And you talked to the President during that 4 encounter, correct? 5 A I probably said hello to him, too. 6 Q How many times have you met the President? 7 A Maybe a dozen times. 8 Q What was the occasion of your meeting, other than 9 this particular send-off session? 10 A Let me see. There was one time we had a group 11 photo with all of the women who served the Women's 12 Interagency Council. There was another occasion when I went 13 to somebody's going-away party at the White House and he was 14 there. There may have been two different going-away parties 15 there. I believe I met him at a Christmas party. 16 Q At the White House, in the residence? 17 A No, this was like in the main area. It was 18 probably attended by a couple thousand people. That was -- 19 I don't know if it was '93 or '94, I can't remember. 20 I believe I saw him at an Easter egg roll. I saw 21 him at -- I think a state dinner for Kim Dae-jung or -- I 22 can't remember when the Korean people -- the presidents or 23 something. I don't know who was present. I can't recall. 24 Q You were invited to a state dinner? 25 A Correct. 95 1 Q This was when you were at the Commerce Department? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Was Mr. Charlie Trie there? 4 A I don't recall. 5 Q Mr. John Huang? 6 A I don't recall. 7 Q Johnny Chung? 8 A I don't know Johnny Chung, so I don't know what he 9 looks like, so I can't testify as to whether or not he was 10 there. 11 Q T.S. Chung? 12 A I don't recall him being there. 13 Q Okay. Go on. Thank you. 14 A And I think any other occasions were along the same 15 lines, in terms of events like that. 16 Q Any other that you can recollect specifically? 17 A No. 18 Q Was your name ever mentioned as a replacement as 19 Commerce secretary after the death of Ron Brown? 20 A I believe it was mentioned in a Los Angeles Times 21 report. 22 Q Do you know the context that your name was raised 23 as a possible successor to Ron Brown? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 96 1 THE WITNESS: No, I do not. In fact, I was out of 2 the country at the time. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did someone suggest that you should be a nomination 5 for Secretary of Commerce? 6 A Not that I'm aware of, sir. 7 Q Did you take any action, however small, to try to 8 become Secretary of Commerce? 9 A No, sir. No, sir. 10 Q Do you know why your name was raised in the 11 L.A. Times -- 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: -- as a possible successor? 14 THE WITNESS: I have no basis or knowledge for why 15 it might have been. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. We are facing a tape 17 change in five minutes. I was going to suggest that we break 18 for lunch now, it's 12:20, and reassemble at 1:30. Is that 19 acceptable? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I just show her this one 21 document, Your Honor, just so we can close this chapter? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, it's just Mr. Holley had given 23 me a little note -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Thanks. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead. If I get indigestion, 97 1 it's on your head. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. I take the Fifth 3 Amendment. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have about two minutes before 5 the tape stops. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You have two minutes. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Mr. Fitton is much more adept 8 at documents than I am. 9 April 4, 1996, an article, I'm going to show it to 10 you, it should be marked as the next number. 11 Is that 25? 12 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, sir. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: "U.S. Officials Don't Want to Discuss 14 Brown Successor," by Susan Cornwell of Reuter Business 15 Report, April 4, 1996. 16 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 25 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Looking down to the second paragraph from the 20 bottom, "This source, who asked not to be named, said there 21 were other 'internal possibilities.' These included Dave 22 Barram, former deputy secretary to Brown who is acting 23 administrator of the General Services Administration, and 24 Ginger Lew, former general counsel at Commerce who has been 25 nominated as deputy administrator of the Small Business 98 1 Administration." 2 Is this the report that you saw in the L.A. Times? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Just a few more questions, if I may, 5 Your Honor. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Ms. Lew, you have significant political contacts, 8 don't you? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: I guess I don't understand the term 12 "significant political contacts." 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Well, you have people that will recommend you who 15 have political linkages to the Democratic Party for various 16 posts, correct? 17 A I have some, but significant is -- it's all 18 relative, I guess. 19 Q Who has recommended you in the past for political 20 posts? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Secretary Brown did. Phil Lader 24 did. Richard Holbrook did when I was with the Carter 25 administration. Those are the ones that come immediately to 99 1 mind. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q John Huang? 4 A Since I did not know Mr. Huang until after he 5 joined the administration or joined the Commerce Department 6 and since our contacts were as limited as they were, I would 7 see no reason why he would, and I have no knowledge that he 8 did. 9 Q You are aware that John Huang did play a role 10 in recommending Asian-American appointments to the 11 administration. 12 A I did not know that, and I do not know that as a 13 fact. 14 Q You've never heard that even said or printed 15 anywhere? 16 A I think it was printed. I read about it. 17 Q You read about it in the New York Times and L.A. 18 Times, correct? 19 A I do not recall where I read that. 20 Q Okay. Did you seek Mr. Huang's recommendation for 21 the post of Commerce secretary? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, Mr. Holley has run 23 out of tape. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: No. 100 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. We can break here. 2 (Whereupon, at 12:24 p.m., a luncheon recess was 3 taken.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:38 p.m.) 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the last question? 4 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. It's going to take 5 a couple of seconds to find it. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 7 (The reporter read back the record.) 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Now I remember. Thank you. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q At the time that you left the Small Business 11 Administration, were you recommended for any other posts 12 other than with that telecommunications company? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware of. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did Mali Tom work at the Small Business 19 Administration? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Where did she work? 25 A In Sacramento. 102 1 Q Who did she work for in Sacramento? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Her name will come up, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Please tie it up 5 quickly, Mr. Klayman. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q That's my one question on Mali Tom, where she 8 works, for right now. 9 A She works for a lobbying firm, but I don't know the 10 name of it. 11 Q Okay. Returning back -- we got a little bit 12 diverted, I want to show you another photograph. I'll show 13 you what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 26. 14 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 26 was 15 marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Here's the original of that. Mr. Holley, the 18 videographer can zero in on that. That's the Exhibit 26. 19 MS. BRASWELL: May I have a copy, please? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Who's depicted in that photograph? 22 A To my far right? To my right is Mr. Rothstein. 23 Next to him is Secretary Brown. Next to him is Melissa Moss. 24 And next to him -- her is Mack McLarty. And at the end here 25 it appears to be David Rothkopf. 103 1 Q Do you know where this picture was taken? 2 A I believe this was taken in the Secretary's 3 conference room at the Department of Commerce. 4 Q And you all were meeting about trade missions? 5 A This was the meeting, what I referred to as the 6 briefing. I think this is the one that preceded the send-off 7 trip at the White House, I think. 8 Q Okay. So there was a briefing session and then 9 there was a send-off session? 10 A Right. 11 Q And who generally attended the briefing sessions? 12 A Certainly, people from International Trade 13 Administration. Again, if there were, depending upon the 14 topic areas that were being covered, so it would just vary 15 according to whatever was being covered. 16 Q Were businessmen present participants at the 17 briefing sessions at the Commerce Department? 18 A I believe this is, as I mentioned, this is the one 19 that preceded the send-off session at the White House. I 20 believe this is the -- this is people were here. I'm not 21 sure, but I think it is. 22 Q This particular photograph related to the trade 23 trip to China? 24 A I believe so. You can see the little insignia 25 there on the name cards. 104 1 Q They had different insignias for each trip? 2 A A little graphic. 3 Q It was a new -- it was a different graphic for each 4 trip. 5 A I believe so. 6 Q So, it's a little bit like NASA, they had an 7 insignia for each space flight. You had one for each trade 8 trip. 9 A I don't -- I don't know. I think it was just a 10 country symbol of some sort. 11 Q This is the one for China. 12 A I believe so, but it's kind of hard to tell, 13 because it's kind of small. 14 Q It's a pagoda. 15 A It appears to be, but I don't know what the symbol 16 was for India. 17 Q Okay. Right. What role did Mack McLarty play in 18 briefing people at that session? 19 A I don't remember. I don't recall. I mean I 20 remember he gave a speech of some sort, but I don't remember 21 what it was. 22 Q Mr. McLarty thanked the participants for their 23 support to the administration? 24 A I don't recall. 25 Q Was there any discussion of campaign contributions 105 1 or political activities during that briefing session? 2 A Not that I recall. 3 Q You don't know one way or the other? 4 A I think I answered and said I don't recall. 5 Q You're not saying, no. You just don't remember. 6 A I said I do not recall and to answer otherwise 7 would cause me to speculate. 8 Q Okay. Did Mr. Mack McLarty play a role in several 9 different trade missions? 10 A Such as missions to South Africa, India, Latin 11 America? I don't know because I can only speak about the ones 12 that I participated in. 13 Q And he was present during those briefing sessions? 14 A I don't recall him being present at the India one; 15 I don't remember. 16 Q During those briefing sessions, I take it people 17 took notes. 18 A I do not know, sir. 19 Q You took notes, didn't you? 20 A I do not recall taking notes, sir. 21 Q You do remember other people taking notes; don't 22 you? 23 A I do not recall that as well. 24 Q These briefing sessions were tape recorded; weren't 25 they? 106 1 A I have no such knowledge. 2 Q There were obviously photographers at the briefing 3 sessions; correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did some people have little tape recorders so they 6 could record what was being said? 7 A I do not know. 8 Q Was there ever any prohibition to bringing a tape 9 recorder in to such a briefing session? 10 A I do not -- I don't know. I don't know of any such 11 policy one way or the other. 12 Q During the meeting at the White House -- the 13 briefing session occurred on the same day, generally, as the 14 send-off at the White House? 15 A Again, I can only speak to the ones that I 16 participated in and the only one I remember participating in 17 was the China one and not the India one because I flew on a 18 separate -- I flew commercial. So I left at a different 19 time. 20 Q Right. Did the debriefing session occur the same 21 day as the meeting in the White House, the send-off meeting 22 for China? 23 A With respect to China, yes. 24 Q And that's because the executives were in town, so 25 you want to do them both at the same time? 107 1 A We were all leaving for the airport. 2 Q Right. 3 Mr. McLarty in this photograph doesn't have a name 4 tag. Do you know why? 5 A No, I do not. 6 Q Mr. McLarty, you are aware, was the White House 7 chief of staff at the time? 8 A I don't know what position he held at that time. 9 Q Do you remember what anyone said at this briefing 10 session? 11 A No, I do not, sir. 12 Q Was John Huang at the briefing session? 13 A I do not recall him being there. 14 Q You don't remember. 15 A As I said, I do not recall him being there. 16 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 17 mark as Exhibit 27. It's a Presidential Business Development 18 Mission to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, G-u-a-n-g-z-h-o-u 19 and Hong Kong, led by the Honorable Ronald H. Brown, 20 Secretary of Commerce, August 27th to September 3rd, 1994. 21 This will be Exhibit -- 22 THE COURT REPORTER: 27. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: 27. 24 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 27 was 25 marked for identification.) 108 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you seen this document before? 3 A Give me a moment to look at it. 4 (Witness examines the document.) 5 I recall seeing portions of this document. I don't 6 if I've seen the entire document as it's currently compiled. 7 Q And was this document used at briefing sessions 8 such as the mission to China? 9 Well, this was the briefing materials for the 10 mission to China; correct? 11 A Well, it says, "Briefing Materials for Advance 12 Team," so I'm not sure if it was used for -- by whom. 13 Q Judging from the logo on the cover of this, this 14 refreshes your recollection as to the logo which you've just 15 identified in the photograph -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q -- Exhibit 27, I believe. Exhibit 26, and that 18 relates to China. 19 A Correct. 20 Q Now, there were briefing books like this provided 21 to the participants on the trade trip to China; correct? 22 A There were briefing materials provided to the 23 participants from China. I do not know if it contained this 24 information. 25 Q Do you know who played a role in compiling this 109 1 information in this exhibit, Exhibit 27? 2 A No, I do not. I would assume the International 3 Trade Administration Office took the lead. 4 Q Did your office, the general counsel's office, 5 review briefing books such as this to make sure that 6 statements of the law were accurate? 7 A Generally, that would be referred to the chief 8 counsel for the program area of -- the specialty program area 9 such as the Chief Counsel's Office for International Trade. 10 Q Can you turn to a page, and let me just show you 11 what it looks like, you'd be able to find it. It's about a 12 quarter-of-an-inch in. It's U.S. Joint Commission on 13 Commerce and Trade, April 13th and 14th, 1994. 14 A It's this -- 15 Q There you go. Do you see that? 16 A Trade Investment Working Group? 17 Q Yeah. Do you see where it says David Rothkopf? 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q Okay. He worked at the Department; correct? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Have you had any contact with Mr. Rothkopf since 22 your last deposition? 23 A I left a message with his office -- I had received 24 an inquiry from the Wharton Business School. They were 25 looking for someone to speak about International Trade and 110 1 Finance and I suggested Mr. Rothkopf. So I left a message 2 with him. I don't know if he called me back, but I -- I 3 might have talked to him. 4 Q Did you ever get to speak with him? 5 A That's what I mean. I don't recall if I did or 6 didn't. 7 Q Have you had any contact with David Garden? 8 A I'm sorry. I don't know who Mr. -- 9 Q Jeffrey Garden. 10 A Oh, Jeffrey. No. 11 Q Where it lists here David Rothkopf, Sung Zhnyu, Z- 12 h-n-y-u -- is he a Chinese government official? 13 A I don't know. I assume so. 14 Q What you had here was an American and then a 15 Chinese counterpart? 16 A Correct. But I do not know in fact that he is a 17 Chinese government official. 18 Q On the trade mission to China, was any effort made 19 to determine who on the Chinese side from the Chinese 20 government would participate in trade mission events before 21 the trade mission took place? 22 A I'm, I'm sorry. I don't know if I understand the 23 question. 24 Q In other words, the trade mission to China in the 25 fall of '94 -- 111 1 A Mm-hmm. 2 Q -- was it known at the Commerce Department who in 3 terms of the government of China was going to be 4 participating in the various meetings that were to take 5 place? 6 A I don't know because I wasn't involved in that 7 process. 8 Q Was there any effort, was there ever any effort 9 when you were at the Commerce Department to determine whether 10 foreign counterparts such as Chinese government officials 11 were part of Chinese Intelligence? 12 A Not that I'm aware of. 13 Q Was there ever any concern expressed that we're 14 sending our companies over into a situation where perhaps 15 they may be compromised? 16 A Not that I'm aware of. 17 Q So, with regard to the trade trips, you don't know 18 of anything in writing or anything that was said orally 19 expressing any concern about security measures in terms of 20 foreign agents conducting intelligence on Americans during 21 trade missions? 22 A I recall at one of the briefings we had with the 23 business representatives that a security person and I don't - 24 - I can't remember who. I don't even know if it was male or 25 female, but there was some discussion as it related to things 112 1 like be careful with their documents, be careful who you talk 2 to, don't leave documents in your room, et cetera. 3 Q Did you know of any list that was presented to 4 any -- the U.S. Intelligence Agency or the FBI to determine 5 whether or not foreign participants on trade missions might 6 be spies? 7 A Foreign participants? 8 Q Yeah. 9 A You mean from the other side? 10 Q From the other side, to check out who was going to 11 be led into these events? 12 A I am not aware of that. 13 Q Did you ever express any such concern to Secretary 14 Brown about the trade mission to China? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, vague. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: About any aspect of the trip to 18 China? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q No. That it was an opportunity for Chinese 21 intelligence to interact with Americans and American 22 companies. 23 A I don't recall making such a statement, no. 24 Q Do you recall anyone making such a statement? 25 A No, not that I -- no. 113 1 Q Do you know whether the White House ever expressed 2 any such concern? 3 A No, I do not know. 4 Q Democratic National Committee? 5 A I do not know, sir. 6 Q Do you know whether agents of any U.S. security 7 agency such as the CIA or NSA accompanied officials on trade 8 missions? Accompanied the U.S. delegation to China? Let me 9 put it that way. 10 A Not that I'm aware of. 11 Q And during the -- your time with the Commerce 12 Department, you were the top legal officer; correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Turn to the page, if you can flip down further, 15 it's about half-an-inch into this, dealing with China's 16 aviation sector. 17 A I'm sorry, aviation? 18 Q Yes. 19 MR. GAGNER: It's a half-inch from the back? 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Got it? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. One of the sectors that Secretary Brown and 25 the Commerce Department wanted to promote most heavily on 114 1 that trade trip to China was the aviation sector; correct? 2 A I do not know that. 3 Q In fact, representatives from American aviation 4 companies went on the trade trip to China. 5 A I don't remember, sir. 6 Q I'm showing you what I'll ask the court reporter to 7 mark as Exhibit 28. This is a "Delegation List Presidential 8 Business Development Mission to China," August 26 to 9 September 3, 1994. 10 A Mm-hmm. 11 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 28 was 12 marked for identification.) 13 Q Two pages previously identified at several 14 depositions, including the Forest deposition. This is a copy 15 of Exhibit 3 of the Forest deposition. Have you ever seen 16 this document before? 17 A I may have -- I mean, yes. I mean, do I have a 18 specific and clear recollection of it, no; but I mean, I have 19 seen this, yes. 20 Q And, in fact, it shows you as a participant on the 21 trade mission; correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And it has a little asterisk next to your name. 24 You're a senior staff. You were senior staff. 25 A Apparently that's what it says at the bottom of 115 1 page two. 2 Q What does senior staff mean? 3 A I have no idea. 4 Q It means you are high up? 5 A I do not know who put that connotation there or 6 what it was intended to do. 7 Q What was your GS level at the Commerce Department? 8 A I was presidentially appointed and confirmed by the 9 Senate. 10 Q Turn a few pages down to China's Oil and Gas 11 Sectors. 12 A I'm sorry. After the aviation? 13 Q Do you know who prepared this section on China oil 14 and gas? 15 A No, I do not. 16 Q Do you know what part of the Commerce Department 17 would have prepared what section? 18 A No, I do not. 19 Q Oil and gas sectors, that was one of the sectors 20 that Secretary Brown and the Commerce Department wanted to 21 promote on that trade trip to China? 22 A I don't recall if it was oil and gas in particular 23 or whether it was energy generally; I don't remember. 24 Q Energy. 25 Now, on that trade trip to China, a joint venture 116 1 was negotiated between the Lippo Group, Entergy Corporation, 2 and the Chinese government; correct? 3 A I recall the Entergy group; I do not recall the 4 Lippo Group. 5 Q You are aware that Ira Sockowitz reviewed the 6 commercial documentation of that joint venture while he was 7 in China? 8 A I am -- do not have any knowledge that he reviewed 9 that specific documentation, no. 10 Q You are aware that he did review the documentation 11 of some transactions that were negotiated in China? 12 A I am aware that he did review some documentations, 13 yes. 14 Q And he did that at your request; correct? 15 A He was the designated attorney to review such 16 documents. 17 Q And you designated him as such; correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q In fact, Ira Sockowitz was your assistant; correct? 20 A As I mentioned, he was on my -- as I stated in my 21 prior deposition, he was one of four special assistants. 22 Q Right. And what were the duties and 23 responsibilities of a special assistant? 24 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 117 1 THE WITNESS: As I testified in my deposition and, 2 again, this may be -- my prior deposition is going to be more 3 accurate since it was more closely related in time to the 4 circumstances -- but generally, I had special assistants who 5 were assigned to specific or to general program areas that 6 covered various areas of the Department of Commerce and that 7 they served as the liaison between my office, sometimes the 8 Program Office and certainly the chief counsel's office for 9 that particular program area. 10 In addition, I also asked them to provide the legal 11 support for any one of these trips, whatever trips the 12 Secretary might be undertaking. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q And what was the specific responsibility of Mr. 15 Sockowitz? 16 A He would have had the same responsibilities as any 17 other special assistant who was assigned to one of these 18 trips; and that is to provide legal support, to provide legal 19 coordination with any of the program offices or the chief 20 counsel's offices, to conduct the Lexis/Nexis search and then 21 also to -- if asked -- to review documentation or whatever 22 information the companies may have submitted if they were 23 seeking some sort of advocacy from the Department of 24 Commerce. 25 Q Mr. Sockowitz, as special assistant, reported 118 1 directly to you; correct? 2 A With respect to the vetting matters, to the trips 3 themselves, he actually reported to Ms. Ambrose. 4 Q And who is Ms. Ambrose? 5 A The deputy general counsel. 6 Q And with regard to other matters, he reported 7 directly to you? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And the other matters that he worked on included, 10 but were not limited to, export licensing? 11 A He seldom got involved in that area for two 12 reasons. One, it's a highly technical area and, secondly, it 13 had the -- the counsel's office that provided the 14 programmatic support seemed to be very -- took it upon 15 themselves to insure there was good coordination within the 16 agency. 17 Q Who worked primarily on export licensing in your 18 office, in the general counsel's office? 19 A The Chief Counsel for Export Administration, Hoyt 20 Zia, and then members of his staff. 21 Q Was Hoyt Zia under your supervision? 22 A Hoyt Zia reported to me, yes. 23 Q Bureau of Export Administration is part of the 24 general counsel's office? 25 A I'm sorry. Could you restate that again? 119 1 Q Bureau of Export Administration is part of the 2 general counsel's office? 3 A No, it is not. 4 Q So, Mr. Zia was chief counsel working out of the 5 general counsel's office? 6 A Mr. Zia was the chief counsel for the office, the 7 Bureau of Export Administration, and for management purposes 8 reported to me; but for programmatic and legal purposes, 9 reported to -- I'm sorry, I can't remember the under 10 secretary's name for Export Administration. 11 Q As the chief counsel for export administration, Mr. 12 Zia was involved in reviewing export license applications; 13 correct? 14 A I assume, but I did not see his day-to-day work, 15 sir. I don't -- 16 Q That's what you assigned him to do. 17 A I assigned him to be the chief counsel and I asked 18 him to be the manager of that legal office. Whether he 19 reviewed specific export licenses, I am not sure. 20 Q And who worked under him? 21 A I believe he has a fairly large staff. I don't 22 know how many now, I can't recall, 10, 12 people. I don't 23 know. 24 Q Who were his top assistants when you were there? 25 A Oh, I can't recall, sir. 120 1 Q Just give me a few. 2 A Sir, I can't recall. If you have some 3 documentation that can refresh my memory, I'd be happy to 4 look at it. 5 Q Now, as part of his duties and responsibilities, 6 what was he in charge to do with export licensing when he 7 worked with -- 8 A Provide legal support to the Under Secretary for 9 Export Administration. 10 Q And what was the nature of that legal support? 11 A I assumed it ranged from everything from looking at 12 interpreting rules and regulations, looking at international 13 treaties, negotiating interagency issues and, obviously, the 14 management issues. 15 Q And -- 16 A And I assume -- I'm not sure, they may have handled 17 appeals, I'm not sure. 18 Q As part of his duties and responsibilities, he did 19 review the file of each export license application; correct? 20 A I do not know that, sir. 21 Q He did review some files of export license 22 applications. 23 A I'm making that assumption, but I do not know that 24 for a fact. 25 Q Well, you were his superior. Wasn't it your job to 121 1 know what he was doing? 2 A He reported to me generally as it related to 3 management issues. 4 Q Did you train Mr. Zia in his job? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Who did? 7 A He had some technology experience where he -- I 8 believed he was counsel, a commercial attorney for Motorola. 9 Spent some time in Hawaii. I forgot doing what. So I 10 assumed that he had some experience in this area; but I also 11 assumed that he received probably more hands-on training and 12 advice from his own staff. 13 Q Did you interview Mr. Zia for his job? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And was it your decision to hire him? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And he was a political appointee? 18 A As I testified previously, I believe I heard about 19 him through the Asian-American Bar Association and contacted 20 him. And we talked. And then -- and I interviewed other 21 people as well. 22 Q Did Mr. Huang recommend him for appointment? 23 A Not that I'm aware. 24 Q Are you aware that his name was found on a list of 25 Asian Pacific Americans that came from John Huang's files at 122 1 the Democratic National Committee? 2 A I am not aware of that. 3 Q I showed you that list last time. Do you remember 4 that list? 5 A No, sir, I don't. 6 Q This is Exhibit 1 to your deposition. We've all 7 seen the list. If anybody would like an extra copy. The 8 last page, "Hoyt Zia," does that refresh your recollection? 9 Take a look at that list as to whether or not Mr. Huang 10 recommended him. 11 (Witness examines the document.) 12 A This document states that this is a list of Asian 13 Pacific American appointees, and there's no such statement 14 that Mr. Huang had any recommendation in association with the 15 people on this list. 16 Q Well, I asked whether it refreshed your 17 recollection. 18 A You asked me if I knew some of these individuals at 19 my last deposition. 20 Q Well, you're right. And I'm asking you now that 21 list which came out of Mr. Huang's files, does that refresh 22 your recollection that -- 23 A Well, I -- 24 Q -- he recommended Zia among others? 25 A I do not know -- this document came from Mr. 123 1 Huang's files. It does not refresh my recollection. I do 2 not recall, remember or believe that Mr. Huang in any way was 3 associated or recommended Mr. Zia. 4 Q Well, you do know that Mr. Huang testified that he 5 considered Mr. Zia to be a close friend. 6 A I do not know that, sir. 7 Q Are you aware that Mr. Zia testified that when Mr. 8 Huang was trying to make himself scarce from the process 9 servers of the U.S. Marshal Service that John Huang tried to 10 contact Hoyt Zia? 11 A I am not aware of that. 12 Q Did Mr. Zia ever tell you that? 13 A No, sir, he did not. 14 Q Do you know that Mr. Zia went to the Democratic 15 National Committee after work to work with Mr. Huang on fund- 16 raising matters? 17 A I did not know that, sir. 18 Q Did Mr. Zia ever tell you that? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Do you know that Mr. Zia actually conducted a press 21 conference when Mr. Huang was making himself scarce from the 22 U.S. Marshal's Service and spoke on behalf of Mr. Huang? 23 A I read about that in "Nation Week." 24 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Mr. 25 Zia participated in formulating the strategy at the 124 1 Democratic National Committee to brand groups such as 2 Judicial Watch and members of the media and the Republican 3 Party as anti-Asian-American to deflect from the media 4 scrutiny by Mr. Huang? 5 A I have -- 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: I have no such knowledge. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you, yourself, participate in any such 11 discussions? 12 A No, sir, I did not. 13 Q Are you aware of any such strategy of the 14 Democratic National Committee? 15 A No, sir, I am not. 16 Q Did you ever see documents to Chairman Christopher 17 Dodd referring to calling those who questioned the activities 18 of Mr. Huang and others as racist? 19 A No, sir, I have not. 20 Q Have you ever had any discussions in the Asian- 21 American community to that effect with anyone? 22 MR. GAGNER: Objection, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What was the question? 25 125 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever had any discussions with anyone in 3 the Asian-American community to that effect? 4 A To? I'm sorry. To what effect? 5 Q The people who were investigating the campaign 6 finance and so-called Chinagate matters were anti-Asian- 7 American and/or racist? 8 A Not that I recall. 9 Q You may have, you just don't remember. 10 A Again, you'd be asking me to speculate, but I do 11 not recall. 12 Q You don't know of anyone in the Asian-American 13 community ever having raised this issue? 14 A The Organization of Chinese Americans raised the 15 question generally about whether Asian-Americans are being 16 treated fairly in the press. That was generally. 17 Q Were you a member of that organization? 18 A I'm a member, of which there are several thousand 19 members. 20 Q And did you see any written literature to that 21 effect? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q Where did they raise that issue? 24 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 126 1 THE WITNESS: I recall having a discussion from 2 someone who said they were -- "they" meaning the OCA group -- 3 was thinking about trying to undertake some educational 4 outreach efforts. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q And who was that? 7 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 MR. GAGNER: Your Honor, can we ask the witness to 10 step outside? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. Ms. Lew, please step 12 outside. 13 (Witness leaves the room.) 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Counsel? 15 MR. GAGNER: Your Honor, it baffles me how this can 16 lead to the discovery of evidence relating to the Department 17 of Commerce FOIA, the destruction of documents or anything 18 like that. It appears rather to be an exploration of the 19 political opinion of either Ms. Lew or her associates. It 20 just doesn't appear to have any relevance. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, the relevance I see, 22 Counsel, comes in the context that we can see in some of 23 these earlier depositions. There came a point in time, 24 particularly in a press release by a woman named Cordonna, 25 Maria Cordonna from the Department of Commerce, which 127 1 attempted to -- said of the Judicial Watch FOIA action that 2 it was -- it had some connection with the fact that the 3 attacks on Huang, John Huang, had something to do with the 4 fact that he was an Asian-American. 5 And then we saw another document, I think the 6 source was from the DNC, suggesting that as a strategy it 7 would make some sense to try to divert attention from the 8 subject by suggesting that the people who are behind the 9 lawsuit actually were motivated by an anti-Asian-American 10 bias. So that evidence, it seems to me, and this witness' 11 participation and knowledge of it, might bear on the motive 12 that she might have in terms of her testimony today. And I 13 will permit some more limited inquiry. 14 Although, Mr. Klayman, I am kind of at the limit of 15 my patience. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I am, too. I'm at the limit of 17 my questioning on that, so maybe one more. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's proceed. 19 MR. GAGNER: Thank you. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would someone please invite the 22 witness in. 23 (Witness is recalled.) 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Have you ever -- okay. These are my last few 128 1 questions. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Have you ever discussed with anyone that Larry 5 Klayman and/or Judicial Watch's lawsuit is racially 6 motivated? 7 A No, sir, not -- 8 MR. GAGNER: Objection, Your Honor, the same basis 9 as before. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand, Counsel, thank you; 11 but we'll overrule it. Mr. Klayman has assured us he's 12 almost finished with this area. 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I've not. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Okay. Have you ever heard anyone say that Larry 16 Klayman or Judicial Watch is anti-Asian-American or racist? 17 A There was some dialogue about that in my prior 18 deposition. 19 Q And what was that? 20 A I don't remember. It was an exchange between 21 counsel. 22 Q Is that the only time you've heard that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you ever hear that from anyone else outside of 25 the counsel in that deposition? 129 1 A No. 2 Q Mr. Zia, in terms of his duties and 3 responsibilities and his staff, was to review export licenses 4 to see whether or not they met the criteria legally speaking 5 to be granted; correct? 6 A Again, since I was not involved in the day-to-day 7 operation, I would not know that for a fact. 8 I am not sure that the Bureau of Export 9 Administration may have license reviewers or something; I 10 don't know what, and perhaps the chief counsel's office may 11 have reviewed it for legal sufficiency; but in terms of 12 actually making the decision, I do not know if they were 13 involved in that phase of it. 14 Q I didn't ask you whether they made the ultimate 15 decision, but Mr. Zia reviewed it with his staff to make sure 16 that it met legal requirements, these export licenses; 17 correct? 18 A I assume so. 19 Q And in so doing, he would have to learn exactly 20 what the proposed transaction was; correct? 21 A His staff would, yes. 22 Q And to do that, you would actually have to see the 23 file, the export license file of any particular proposed 24 exporter; correct? 25 A You're asking me to make an assumption, but I 130 1 assume so; but I do not know that for a fact. 2 Q And in the course of -- you are aware that during 3 the time that you were at the Commerce Department, Loral 4 Corporation made several export licenses -- license 5 applications to the Department of Commerce. 6 A No, I'm not sure I was aware of that. I may have 7 heard about it, but only in passing. 8 Q You are aware that Loral went on the trade trip to 9 China in the fall of '94? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You are aware that Bernard Schwartz of Loral 12 discussed business, potential business with Chinese 13 authorities? 14 A I assume so, yes. 15 Q You are aware that Ron Brown assisted Mr. Schwartz 16 in his endeavors in China? 17 A As he did with every other business person. 18 Q I didn't ask about other business persons. I asked 19 about Bernard Schwartz and Loral. You are aware that he 20 assisted Bernard Schwartz and Loral; correct? 21 A I, I -- if he provided assistance to him, I do not 22 know what specific assistance he did provide. 23 Q But you do know that he did provide assistance? 24 A I guess I find it difficult to answer the question 25 only in the sense that Secretary Brown certainly did not pick 131 1 up the telephone and call someone to set up a meeting. 2 Whether his staff made arrangements or something like that, 3 that may be the case, I don't know. I don't know what other 4 assistance he may have offered to Mr. Schwartz. 5 Q You are aware that Secretary Brown arranged for a 6 meeting for Mr. Schwartz with a rival industry executive with 7 the Chinese Telecommunication Minister. 8 A I am not aware of that, sir. I certainly don't 9 recall. 10 Q You are aware that -- well, let me show you what 11 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 28. 12 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. 29. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: 29. 14 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 29 was 15 marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q This is an article which appeared in The Washington 18 Post of May 25th, 1998, entitled, "Big Donor Calls Favorable 19 Treatment a Coincidence." 20 It states, "In June 1994, Bernard L. Schwartz, the 21 Chairman of Loral Corp., wrote his first six-figure check to 22 the Democratic Party, donated $100,000 to the Democratic 23 National Committee. Around the same time, Schwartz asked to 24 be included on a trade mission being organized by then 25 Commerce Secretary Ronald H. Brown to China, where his 132 1 company hoped to win a piece of the growing 2 telecommunications market. On the trip, Brown arranged a 3 meeting for Schwartz and a rival industry executive with the 4 Chinese communications minister, a session that, as Schwartz 5 recalled it, 'helped open doors that were not open before.' 6 "The Clinton administration has been good to 7 Bernard Schwartz, and he to it. Schwartz, a lifelong 8 Democrat and longtime political donor, dramatically ratcheted 9 up his giving after President Clinton took office, 10 contributing a total of more than $1 million to the 11 Democratic Party Committee since then." 12 Does this refresh your recollection concerning the 13 assistance that Ronald Brown provided for Bernard Schwartz of 14 Loral? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q On the trade trip to China? 17 A No, sir, it does not. 18 Q Are you telling me you have no knowledge of any 19 assistance provided by the U.S. government to Bernard 20 Schwartz on that trade trip? 21 A I do not know what assistance, if any, was provided 22 to him. 23 Q But it is true that Bernard Schwartz had export 24 licenses pending at the Department of Commerce at the time of 25 that trade trip; that is correct? 133 1 A I do not know that, sir. 2 Q It's correct that he later submitted a request for 3 export licenses to the Commerce Department; correct? 4 A I do not know that, sir. 5 Q And it's true that at that point in time, in and 6 around the fall of 1994 and thereafter, that the Commerce 7 Department was transferred authority to actually grant export 8 licenses? 9 A I don't recall that. 10 Q Ultimate authority. 11 A I do not recall that. I'm sorry. When, when did 12 you say? 13 Q After the fall of 1994. 14 A I don't recall that, sir. 15 Q You are aware that there was a change in procedures 16 during Ron Brown's tenure at the Commerce Department that 17 before, the State Department and the Defense Departments had 18 the ultimate say on whether to grant an export license. 19 Instead, now, under Secretary Brown, the Commerce Department 20 had the ultimate say; correct? 21 A I thought that occurred later, so I -- I do not 22 know. I'm not familiar with the timing. 23 Q When did that occur? 24 A I think it occurred sometime in '96 or '97. 25 Q When did you say? 134 1 A 1996 or 1997. 2 Q Okay. Even before then, the Commerce Department 3 played a role in reviewing export licenses; correct? 4 A Yes, that's part of an interagency group, yes. 5 Q Turn to the last page of this document. 6 A I'm sorry. Which document? 7 Q Exhibit 29. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Second to the last paragraph, "Schwartz was 10 enlisted by another industry executive to be one of the 11 signers of a letter to Clinton asking the President to 12 approve the transfer of satellite export licensing from the 13 State Department to Commerce. 'Your decision will greatly 14 enhance the ability of U.S. manufacturers to retain our 15 global competitiveness,' the letter said." 16 You are aware of that, aren't you? 17 A Of the letter? 18 Q Yes. 19 A I never saw it. 20 Q Do you know of its existence? 21 A I believe this is the first time I ever heard about 22 it, or maybe I've read about it before, but -- I mean, read 23 about it in a newspaper article, but I certainly was not 24 aware of its existence. 25 Q Do you know who the other industry executive was? 135 1 A Certainly, I do not. 2 Q Did you ever have a conversation with Bernard 3 Schwartz? 4 A On the plane. We said, "Hello." We chatted 5 probably for three or four minutes or something like that. 6 Q What did you chat about? 7 A "Are you excited to be going on the trip? Have you 8 ever been before?" Pretty general things. 9 Q Did you have conversations with him after that? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 12 A I can only say that I did not. 13 Q Now, if Loral had submitted an export license 14 request to the Commerce Department, Mr. Zia would have been 15 the one to review that ultimately; correct? From a legal 16 perspective? 17 A As I mentioned, I do not know how he assigned the 18 review of export licenses. He may have, he may not have 19 been. 20 Q But all export license applications passed through 21 his part of the general counsel's office; correct? At some 22 point? 23 A They pass through legal review of some sort from -- 24 by one of his attorneys, yes. 25 Q And did you ever take, did you ever inquire of Mr. 136 1 Zia as to whether or not he had any connection to Chinese 2 intelligence? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Zia obtained 7 documents from export license applications and passed them on 8 to Chinese intelligence? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Do you know whether or not he ever provided 11 documents from export license applications to your assistant, 12 Ira Sockowitz? 13 A No, sir. I mean I don't know. 14 Q Sockowitz did work on some export licensing 15 matters, you said. 16 A Yes. They would have been broad policy issues. 17 Q As part of Zia's duties and responsibilities, he 18 would have reviewed export license applications for 19 encryption software; correct? 20 A I don't know, sir. 21 Q Well, if there was an export license for encryption 22 software, it would have passed through Zia's section of the 23 general counsel's office; correct? 24 A It would have passed -- have been reviewed by one 25 of his attorneys, yes. 137 1 Q And do you know whether or not Ira Sockowitz 2 assisted him with regard to reviewing any possible 3 application for encryption technology? 4 A I have no such knowledge. 5 Q You are aware that Ira Sockowitz left the 6 Department of Commerce with encryption materials, classified 7 encryption materials? 8 A As I read about it in the newspaper, yes. 9 Q Given the fact that you were General Counsel at the 10 time that Sockowitz worked there, given the fact that he 11 later joined you at the Small Business Administration, do you 12 have any possible explanation as to how Sockowitz got his 13 hands on that encryption classified material? 14 A I believe I testified about that in my last 15 deposition and I can't recall exactly what I said. But if he 16 had a need to know, he would have had the right to it; but if 17 he didn't have a need to know, he shouldn't have had access 18 to it. 19 Q Well, what I'm asking you is given your position, 20 given your expertise, given the fact that Mr. Zia worked 21 under your ultimate direction and control, as well as Mr. 22 Sockowitz, given the fact that you were the head lawyer of 23 the general counsel's office, do you -- have you ever thought 24 as to how Sockowitz could have gotten his hands on this 25 stuff? 138 1 A The only area that I believe that he may have had 2 some area of involvement with respect to encryption issues 3 relate to the Department's general responsibility for the 4 promulgation of federal information processing standards for 5 the entire U.S. Government. It is responsibility that, that 6 the Department of Commerce has to ensure certain types of 7 computer interoperability, telephone systems, et cetera. And 8 at one point in time, he and I worked on something called -- 9 on a interagency group where we were trying or just beginning 10 to at this stage -- I believe this was '94 or '95. I can't 11 remember when. We were starting to scope out how the 12 government was going to try and engage in business 13 electronically. And one of the major -- the IRS had already 14 started doing this by I think a trial session of receiving 15 some tax returns electronically, but the major question, was 16 how -- how do you ensure that the person who is sending you 17 the data is the person, is, in fact, that person. So we were 18 starting to explore the development of something called the 19 digital signature standards. 20 Q And he would have come into contact with encryption 21 classified material in that context? 22 A There was some involved in that context, yes. 23 Q Would he have come into contact with three 24 classified CIA reports on Russia, India, and China in that 25 context? 139 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Have you ever thought as to how he may have gotten 6 his hands on those three CIA reports? 7 A Well, you're -- I don't know what documents he had 8 or has. And if he had those documents, I do not know how he 9 would obtain those. 10 Q He could obtain those from Hoyt Zia; correct? 11 A Sir, I do not know. 12 Q Do you know whether Mr. Zia, Mr. Sockowitz, and Mr. 13 Huang ever discussed the removal of encryption classified 14 material from the Commerce Department? 15 A I have no such knowledge, sir. 16 Q Do you know whether or not John Huang is an agent 17 of the Chinese government? 18 A I have no such knowledge, sir. 19 Q Have you ever asked him? 20 A Sir, I've described my -- the extent of my 21 conversations with him. And in none of those conversations 22 has the topic or issue ever arisen. 23 Q Have you ever discussed with anyone the possibility 24 that John Huang is a Chinese spy? 25 A No, sir. 140 1 Q Never discussed that with anybody? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q Have you ever heard that said? 4 A I've heard it reported in the Washington Times, or 5 the Washington Post, or something. 6 Q One of your primary responsibilities as general 7 counsel at the Commerce Department was to work with the 8 Bureau of Export Administration; correct? 9 A As I said in my earlier deposition, I viewed my job 10 as more of a management job, because each of the major 11 program areas, including the Bureau of Export Administration, 12 had technical legal experts who were deeply steeped and well- 13 versed in this area. And my goal, my job, I viewed my job as 14 primarily a management job, making sure they had adequate 15 resources, personnel. I focused more on broader legal issues 16 or legal issues which had a significant interagency impact of 17 some sort. 18 Q But you did go into the job believing that you were 19 going to focus on export administration. 20 A No, sir, I did not. 21 Q You at least went into the job believing that that 22 was going to be a significant part of your duties and 23 responsibilities. 24 A No, I did not have that belief. In fact, I don't 25 know if I had any preconceived notion until I got there and 141 1 started to get briefed about the size and scope and the 2 different types of programs at the Department, because I 3 ultimately had to come to my own conclusion as to what were 4 going to be my own priorities as well as the Secretary's 5 priorities. 6 Q Well, after you were briefed and such, you did 7 realize that Export Administration, Bureau of Export 8 Administration, was going to be a significant part of the 9 functions of the general counsel's office, correct? 10 A And, and I made the decision that that was best 11 handled by the technical experts. 12 Q But you did recognize that that was a significant 13 duty and responsibility for the general counsel's office. 14 A No less -- no more significant than Export 15 Statistics Administration, no more significant than NOAA, no 16 less significant or more significant -- in fact, I probably 17 considered NOAA to be more significant than the Bureau of 18 Export Administration, the National Oceanographic -- I forgot 19 what the rest of it stands for. 20 Q The Weather Service. 21 MR. GAGNER: Atmospheric Administration. 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Basically, the Weather Service; right? 25 A The weather, the marine mammal protection. They 142 1 did a whole range of -- 2 Q Including the zoo downstairs in the Commerce 3 Department. 4 A -- conservation issues. I do not know if they have 5 responsibilities for that, sir. 6 But -- because they had significant domestic as 7 well as international issues. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I warn you, Mr. Klayman, a tax on 9 NOAA will not be kindly viewed by a sailor like me. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I used to go there myself. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Without them, we have neither wind 12 to sail nor have any idea where I'm going. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I used to go to the aquarium 14 downstairs. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Be careful. Please continue. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q So you put no special emphasis on the Bureau of 18 Export Administration, either before or after you ascended to 19 the post of general counsel. 20 A Correct. 21 Q I show you what I'll ask the court reporter to mark 22 as Exhibit 30. 23 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 30 was 24 marked for identification.) 25 143 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q This is an article, July 16th, 1993, Asian Week 3 magazine, entitled, "APA Woman Named Chief Legal Advisor to 4 the Commerce Secretary," by Gerard Lim, L-i-m. 5 It starts off in the first paragraph, "Imbued with 6 an even-keeled temperament, Ginger Lew seems well-suited for 7 her new job, one which could otherwise drive most people mad. 8 For someone who admits to having no political aspirations, 9 Lew, 44, is the latest Asian Pacific American babyboomer 10 appointee in President Clinton's slowly growing 11 administration, and she will be indirectly responsible for 12 shaping our new world order." 13 It states at paragraph 4, last sentence, "An 14 appointment was what she got; however, after a grueling 15 string of interviews with White House officials, with high 16 ranking officials in the Commerce Department, and finally, 17 with Secretary Brown, himself" -- who were the interviews 18 that you had with White House officials? 19 A I'm not sure who they're referring to. I'm trying 20 to remember who I met with at the White House. Bruce 21 Lindsey. 22 Q What did you discuss with Mr. Lindsey? 23 A Well, he was then director of presidential 24 personnel. 25 Q Did you discuss John Huang with Bruce Lindsey? 144 1 A As I mentioned, Mr. Klayman, I did not meet nor 2 know of John Huang until after I joined the Department. 3 Q Well, that doesn't mean you can't discuss it with 4 him. Did you discuss Charlie Trie with Bruce Lindsey? 5 A I believe I have testified that I never met Mr. 6 Trie until some time after I joined the administration. 7 Q Did you discuss trade missions with Bruce Lindsey? 8 A No, I did not. 9 Q Did you discuss export licensing with Bruce 10 Lindsey? 11 A No, I did not. 12 Q Did you discuss Democratic donors with Bruce 13 Lindsey? 14 A No, I did not. 15 Q Specifically, what did you discuss? 16 A I assume it was -- again, you're asking me to 17 recall something that's almost seven years old, six years 18 old. I assume it was pretty much a typical job interview. 19 "What do you do? What have you done?" Et cetera. 20 Q Who else did you meet with? 21 A I think that's it. I don't remember. 22 Q Did you meet with Harold Ickes? 23 A No. 24 Q Hillary Clinton? 25 A No. 145 1 Q Who did you meet with at the Commerce Department 2 besides Secretary Brown? 3 A Mr. Stein. 4 Q Anyone else? 5 A Not that I remember. 6 Q Now, you remember giving an interview to this 7 reporter, Gerard Lim; correct? 8 A Actually, no, I don't. 9 Q You're not denying the quotes that are put in here; 10 are you? 11 A Sir, I do not recall giving the interview and I 12 can't recall if these quotes are accurate or not. And 13 because of the time and age, how much time has passed. 14 Q Do you know -- have you heard of a Gerard Lim? 15 A Have I heard of him? No. 16 Q Have you subscribed to Asian Week in the past? 17 A Yes. 18 Q You got Asian Week regularly? 19 A Well, only until recently -- well, no. There was a 20 while -- a period while I didn't get it. 21 Q In and around July 16th, 1993, you were getting 22 Asian Week. Correct? 23 A No, I was not. 24 Q How do you know that so definitively? 25 A Because by that time I was traveling back and forth 146 1 between California and Washington. We had moved into our new 2 house, and a bunch of subscriptions had not picked up on the 3 transfer. 4 Q But you were still subscribed. They were just 5 being sent to previous residence? 6 A Well, we never -- I don't know. We didn't get the 7 newspaper, so, I mean I can't tell you. I don't know. 8 Q Did you ever see this article before? 9 A This is the first time I've seen this. 10 Q Turn to the last page, second paragraph, "Lew, 11 however, says the Department of Commerce is primarily 12 responsible for domestic rather than international policies. 13 She adds it is more 'a reflection of where we are in the 14 appointment process' rather than a blatant slap of the APA 15 community. She emphasizes there are more 'Asian names in the 16 pipeline' awaiting word from the White House personnel." 17 Is there anything about that statement that is not 18 accurate? 19 A Well, I don't recall making it. 20 Q I have asked you a lot of questions here today that 21 you didn't recall the answers to; correct? 22 A Again, sir, you're asking me -- 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Correct? 147 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Argumentative. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just laying the foundation. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please proceed. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q The fact that you don't remember it doesn't mean it 6 isn't true; does it? 7 A You're also asking me to confirm if it's accurate, 8 and I cannot confirm that. 9 Q Let's read the last paragraph, "Lew, whose parents 10 came from China's Toishan," T-o-i-s-h-a-n, "Province, says 11 her first priority will be to work diligently with the Bureau 12 of Export Administration" -- 13 A Mm-hmm. 14 Q -- "which is responsible for issuing licenses for 15 U.S. exports. 'Given the changes of the new world order, it 16 should be easier for U.S. businesses to do business 17 overseas,' Lew says, suggesting her department will be 18 working closely with the Treasury and State Departments to 19 address trade imbalance issues." 20 You made that statement to Mr. Gerard Lim; didn't 21 you? 22 A I do not recall, sir, making that statement, and I 23 can't imagine why I would choose the Bureau of Export 24 Administration. Again, given the time when this supposedly 25 occurred, I was -- I had not yet even arrived or was on the 148 1 verge of arriving at -- I'm not sure if I had just started at 2 the Commerce Department as a consultant or had not yet even 3 gotten there yet, but I would have no basis in fact for 4 making that statement. 5 Q Are you suggesting that this reporter made that up? 6 A Sir, I just don't know -- I don't know what he did 7 and I don't know where that statement came from and whether 8 if I made it -- I'm not sure why I would make it, because, as 9 I mentioned, my knowledge about the scope of responsibilities 10 and areas of responsibilities and the breadth at the 11 Department of Commerce was very, very minimal at that stage. 12 Q Are you saying that your breadth of 13 responsibilities and knowledge of the Bureau of Export 14 Administration became much more pronounced later? 15 A What I'm saying is that my knowledge of the 16 Department as a whole and its broad areas of 17 responsibilities, including economic statistics and economic 18 development, minority business development, NOAA, et cetera, 19 and Office of Patent and Trademark, et cetera, became -- gave 20 me the basis from which to form an opinion on how -- what my 21 priorities were going to be. So I'm just actually kind of 22 startled by this -- 23 Q You have given interviews to Asian Week magazine in 24 the past; haven't you? 25 A I think a couple. I can't remember. 149 1 Q Do you know of any other instance where you ever 2 wrote to Asian Week and told them that they had not reported 3 accurately? Do you know of any instance when you ever did 4 that? 5 A If I didn't see this story, it would be pretty hard 6 for me to write to them and say it was inaccurate. 7 Q I'm not talking about this story. I'm talking 8 about other stories. Do you know of any instance where you 9 ever read an article in Asian Week and you contacted Asian 10 Week and said, "That's not accurate." Did that ever happen? 11 A As it relates to myself or any story? 12 Q Anything. 13 A Oh. I don't think so. I don't recall. 14 Q Now, before we got off on -- let's finish this up, 15 first. Turn to -- 16 A I'm sorry. What are you referring to? 17 Q We're going back to the exhibit that is the 18 briefing book, 27. Turning to the briefing book where it 19 lists "China Space Industry." It's about half-way through 20 it. 21 A After oil and gas? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Okay. 24 Q Have you seen this subsection of this briefing book 25 before? 150 1 A Again, just given the passage of time, I may have. 2 Q You are aware that on the trade trip to China in 3 the fall of '94, one of the sectors that was being promoted 4 was the space industry; correct? Satellites and space? 5 A Actually, at my first deposition, I didn't recall 6 it, but now after seeing this list, I notice that -- I'm 7 sorry, this Exhibit 28, that -- what was it? Besides Loral, 8 isn't there somebody else? I guess that was it. 9 I had not originally remembered Mr. Loral being on 10 the trip. 11 Q Mr. Schwartz, you mean? 12 A I mean, excuse me, excuse. 13 Q Right. But now this refreshes your recollection 14 that space and satellites was one of the aspects of the trade 15 mission? 16 A Yes, probably, yes. 17 Q And, in fact, do you know who prepared this 18 particular section? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q The section refers to Hughes Corporation; correct? 21 It's in the first paragraph. 22 A Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. Refers to "U.S. firms 23 Echostar and Hughes." 24 Q Right. 25 A Yes. 151 1 Q And it refers to China Great Wall Industry 2 Corporation and China Aerospace, correct, in that first 3 paragraph? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. Now, the Department of Commerce did review 6 export license applications by Hughes while you were general 7 counsel; correct? 8 A If it occurred during my -- during the time period 9 that I was general counsel, yes. I don't recall it, but -- I 10 mean I don't recall the specific licenses. 11 Q And you are aware that both Hughes and Loral are 12 being investigated by the Justice Department for alleged 13 improper transfers of technology to the Chinese. 14 A I have read that. 15 Q And you are aware that the State and Defense 16 Departments have said that the those transfers of technology 17 harmed U.S. national security. 18 A I have read that in the Washington Post. 19 Q What information do you have in that regard based 20 upon your time at the Commerce Department and the trade 21 mission to China? 22 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: None that I can recall because if I 25 remember correctly, the failure of whoever it was, whatever 152 1 event it was that precipitated this whole thing, either 2 occurred about the time I left or after I left, I'm not sure. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q But you are aware, however, that Loral was trying 5 to put together these deals with the China Aerospace industry 6 at the time of the trade mission in 1994? 7 A I'm sorry. Putting together these contracts? 8 Q Yes. 9 A I must say if I was briefed about it, it was only 10 in passing. Again, my focus was really on the commercial 11 law. I really didn't focus on what was going on with respect 12 to the companies. 13 Q But you knew that Loral was trying to further 14 negotiations with China Aerospace and the Great Wall China 15 Industry Corporation to launch vehicle providers during that 16 trade mission to China in '94? 17 A I do not know that. I just know that they were 18 trying to increase business. I mean I don't know if they 19 were dealing with Great Wall or whether they were dealing 20 with somebody else. I don't recall that. 21 Q You are aware that Loral did use Great Wall as well 22 as China Aerospace to launch its satellites in China. 23 A I read that in the newspaper articles. 24 Q And you are aware that Mr. Schwartz did have 25 contact with representatives of those two companies on the 153 1 trade mission to China in the fall of '94. 2 A I do not know that for a fact, sir. 3 Q Did you sit in on any meetings during that trade 4 trip w here aerospace issues or satellite issues or launch 5 vehicle issues were discussed? 6 A Not that I recall, sir. 7 Q You may have, but you just don't remember anymore? 8 A I can recollect the meetings I sat in on and none 9 of them dealt with that topic. 10 Q Do you know of anyone who did sit in on meetings 11 that dealt with that topic from the Commerce Department? 12 A I do not know, sir. 13 Q Anybody from U.S. industry? 14 A I don't know, sir. 15 Q Now, my having read to you that Mr. Brown arranged 16 a meeting for Mr. Schwartz and a rival industry executive 17 with the Chinese Communications Minister, did that refresh 18 your recollection? 19 A No, sir, it did not. 20 Q Do you know who that Chinese Communications 21 Minister may be? 22 A No, sir, I do not. 23 Q Let's turn down to -- further in this document 24 where you start to see subsection G where appears various 25 biographies of Chinese government officials. The first one 154 1 is Jiang Zemin, J-i-a-n-g Z-e-m-i-n. 2 Did you meet with Jiang Zemin during that trip to 3 China? 4 A Not that I remember -- or I would have remembered 5 it if I had. 6 Q Did you meet him? 7 A Not that I recall. 8 Q Did you attend meetings where he was present? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know if Mr. Schwartz met Jiang Zemin? 11 A I do not. 12 Q The next one, Li Peng, premier, did you meet Mr. Li 13 Peng during that trip? 14 A I believe he was part of the welcoming committee 15 where the delegates -- I mean everyone in the delegation was 16 greeted by him, I believe. It was at the Great Hall, I 17 believe. 18 Q Did he participate in any discussions over 19 aerospace? 20 A Not -- I don't have any knowledge of that. 21 Q The next one, Zhu Rongji, he's the current premier; 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q By the way, did you meet him in the last few weeks? 25 A No. 155 1 Q Did you participate in any events where he was 2 present? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you meet him in China in the fall of '94? 5 A What was his position? Vice premier/governor. I 6 don't recall meeting him. 7 Q Flip down to Mr. Haoruo Zhang, H-a-o-r-u-o Z-h-a-n- 8 g, last word. 9 A Is that several pages? 10 Q Yeah. Minister of internal trade. 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q And let's flip to the page after that where a Mr. 13 Jichuan, J-i-c-h-u-a-n, Wu, W-u, minister, post and 14 telecommunications. 15 A Where there is no picture; right? 16 Q Right. Now, does that refresh your recollection as 17 to whether Mr. Brown introduced Mr. Schwartz to this 18 gentleman? 19 A No, it does not. 20 Q Was this gentleman in charge of telecommunications 21 and aerospace? 22 A I do not know, sir. 23 Q Do you know where these biographies came from that 24 comprise this briefing book? 25 A No, sir, I do not. 156 1 Q Was there anyone at the Commerce Department that 2 was in charge in knowing the credentials of Chinese 3 officials? 4 A I don't know that, sir. 5 Q During the time that you were at the Commerce 6 Department, did you ever have any contact with anyone from 7 Motorola? 8 A Motorola? Not that I recall. 9 Q Iridium? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q Did you ever hear of Iridium? 12 A I've read about them in the paper. 13 Q Have you had any contact with Lauri Fitz-Pegado 14 since your last deposition? 15 A I answered earlier, prior to the lunch break, that 16 I believe her secretary contacted my secretary to get our 17 address, and she sent a Christmas card. 18 Q Are you aware that Mr. Zia had worked for Motorola? 19 A Yes, I testified to that. 20 Q Are you aware that Motorola is part of an 21 international consortium called Iridium? 22 A No, I was not aware they were part of that 23 consortium. 24 Q Are you aware that Chine Aerospace and China Great 25 Wall are part of that consortium? 157 1 A No, sir, I am not aware of that. 2 Q Are you aware that China Aerospace and China Great 3 Wall had been reported to be close to the chinese 4 intelligence service? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. He seems to be going far 6 afield, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I am not. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 11 mark as -- ? 12 THE COURT REPORTER: 31. 13 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 31 was 14 marked for identification.) 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Exhibit 31. Are you aware that Iridium, in order 17 that its satellites communicate, employs encryption software? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know that for a fact, sir. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Are you aware that China Aerospace and China Great 23 Wall have interests in the Chinese military? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 158 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Or vice versa? 3 A No, sir, I do not. 4 Q I show you what has been marked as Exhibit 31. Is 5 this the same meeting, I'll ask that the videographer zoom in 6 on this. 7 Is this the same meeting, the send-off session at 8 the White House for the China trip? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Is this a different one? 11 A This is the briefing at the Secretary's conference 12 prior to the send-off. 13 Q Okay. This is the actual briefing session. Okay. 14 Tell me who is standing up there -- 15 A Could I see the original? 16 Q Sure. Why don't you just point and Mr. Holley can 17 zoom in so we can see it on the camera. 18 Who is the woman in blue? 19 A That is Lauri Fitz-Pegado. 20 Q And who is the woman to her left sitting down? 21 A I believe that's Maria Haley. 22 Q And who is Maria Haley? 23 A She is on the Board of Directors of the Export 24 Import Bank. 25 Q Is there anyone in this photograph that you haven't 159 1 previously identified who you can identify? 2 A That's, sitting next to me, is Nancy Linn Patton 3 and sitting behind this white-haired gentleman almost in the 4 corner is the Secretary's press secretary. I can't remember 5 her name. Carol something. 6 Q Carol Hamel? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Mr. Huang was in charge of Asian Matters at the 9 Commerce Department, correct, in terms of international 10 trade. That was his specialty? 11 A I do not know since I did not work with him, I did 12 not know what his job responsibilities were. 13 Q How many times did you meet with Mr. Huang at the 14 Commerce Department? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and answered. 16 MR. GAGNER: Objection. Asked and answered. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think so. 18 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not sure I ever completed the 20 questioning, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think so. 22 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you recall whether or not 24 you've previously answered that question. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. I think I understand where I'm 160 1 going here. Refreshed my own recollection. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q How many times during the period that you were at 4 the Commerce Department, did you meet with Mr. Huang outside 5 of the Commerce Department? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and answered. She 7 went through a long dissertation of every time she met with 8 Mr. Huang, Your Honor. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. I refreshed my 10 recollection yet again, Your Honor. I'll see if I can get 11 any closer here. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q The question I believe was did you work with Mr. 14 Huang directly or indirectly on any matters outside of the 15 Commerce Department. I believe -- well, how did you respond? 16 I don't want to put words in your mouth. 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and answered. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could you please repeat the 19 question? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Whether you worked with Mr. Huang directly or 22 indirectly in matters outside of the Commerce Department. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Just briefly, if you 25 can. 161 1 THE WITNESS: I believe I mentioned I had worked on 2 this informal group that was convened by Ms. Matsui. He was 3 supposedly a part of this group, but he never attended any of 4 the meetings I attended, so I, you know, I can't say that we 5 worked directly or indirectly because he was never there. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And just for purposes of identification so we can 8 move on, what was the name of that group? 9 A Something working group. I'm sorry, but I can't 10 remember. 11 Q Was it called the Asian-Pacific American Working 12 Group? 13 A That may have been. I'm not -- no, I'm not sure if 14 that is the name. It could have been, but I'm not sure. 15 Q I'm going to show you what I'll ask the court 16 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 17 THE COURT REPORTER: 32. 18 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 32 was 19 marked for identification.) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q This is a letter sent by facsimile to John Huang 22 from Hoyt Zia dated April 23rd, 1996. And it's with regard 23 to Department of Commerce Asian-Pacific American Heritage 24 Month Program. "Dear John." This is the Hoyt Zia that 25 worked directly for you; correct? 162 1 A Mm-hmm. Correct. 2 Q Have you ever seen this letter before? 3 A No. It's the first time I've ever seen it. 4 Q Okay. The letter makes reference, "This letter 5 will confirm your participation as a panelist in a Department 6 of Commerce event to celebrate Asian-Pacific American 7 Heritage Month. The panel which is scheduled to occur on 8 Friday, May 17th, 1996," from a certain time, "will be 9 entitled to APA involvement in politics and government, 10 avenues for change or dead end." 11 It then talks about various matters in terms of 12 this Asian-Pacific American Heritage Month program. And it 13 says at the bottom of the second paragraph, "Other members of 14 the panel will be Dale Minomi, Dennis Hayshi, Tricia 15 Morikawa, M-o-r-i-k-a-w-a, and Ginger lew." 16 Did you serve as a panel member? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q And, in fact, you did participate at the Department 19 of Commerce in Asian-Pacific American Heritage Month. 20 A I participated at this panel, on this panel. Mr. 21 -- Ms. Morikawa and Mr. Huang were not there. Ms., just Dale 22 Minomi, Dennis Hayshi, and myself. 23 Q What was the Asian-Pacific American Heritage Month? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. No 25 relevance. 163 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It doesn't have any relevance. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: It does, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. We celebrate it here, Mr. 4 Klayman. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to tie it up. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, please do so 7 quickly, but I can assure you we celebrate it here at the 8 courthouse. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It celebrates the heritage of 11 Asian-Americans in United States history. So. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand, but I just want to know 13 what were the -- 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q But I just want to know, what were the activities 16 at the Department of Commerce with regards to this particular 17 Asian Pacific American Heritage Month? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection. It's totally beyond 19 the scope. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you remember any of the 21 other -- 22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember any of the other 23 activities. I participated only in this one. I mean, the 24 Small Business Administration had one, too. But I mean, I 25 think it was just a reception-type thing. 164 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did they have a big banner in the lobby at the 3 Commerce Department? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I actually remember seeing it. I'll 7 turn your attention to a document entitled Democratic 8 National Committee, Office of Asian Public Affairs. It spans 9 Bates Numbers 891 through and including 922. 10 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 33 was 11 marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you seen this document before? 14 A I'm sorry. What did you say? 15 Q I'm just identifying it for the record. 16 A Oh, okay. 17 Q These are the Bates numbers. Have you seen this 18 document before? 19 A If you would, give me a moment, please, to look at 20 it. 21 (Witness examines the document.) 22 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, while the witness is 23 looking at this document, I'd like to object and ask that Mr. 24 Klayman be required to explain how this document, in April of 25 1996 -- 165 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, Your Honor, no colloquy in 2 the record, please. 3 MS. BRASWELL: -- is relevant to the scope of 4 discovery in this case. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We will do that, but let's give 6 the witness a moment to take a look at it. 7 (Witness examines the document.) 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would you let us know when you've 9 finished reading the document, Ms. Lew? 10 THE WITNESS: I will. I'm sorry, but -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Take your time. 12 THE WITNESS: (Examining) Is there supposed to be 13 a blank page? 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah, I noticed that at the end, 15 there seems to be -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, there's a blank page, there. 17 THE WITNESS: Right before the last page. Okay. 18 To the best of my recollection, I've never seen this before. 19 This is the first time that I've seen this. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You were aware, however, of the National Asian 22 Pacific American campaign plans, correct? 23 A No, sir, I was not. I was aware that it was being 24 prepared. 25 Q How did you learn that it was being prepared? 166 1 A I don't know if it was at one of the meetings that 2 Ms. Matsui wanted the -- that I attended, she announced it 3 was being prepared, or something. 4 Q And what did it entail? 5 A I don't know, since I didn't see it. 6 Q Look at Footnote 1. Well, let me read just the 7 first sentence, just to key it in" 8 "In January and February 1996, the Asian Pacific 9 American Working Group, APAWG, was convened by Ms. Doris 10 Matsui, deputy assistant to the President, to draft a 11 strategic plan, hereinafter `the national plan,' to 12 coordinate all White House Democratic National Committee and 13 Clinton-Gore 1996 activities for the Asian Pacific American 14 community." 15 "Footnote 1: The APAWG consists of the following 16 members." It lists you, it lists John Huang, it lists 17 others. This is an accurate listing, is it not? 18 A I do not know if these other people were, in fact 19 -- I can only testify about the people who showed up at the 20 meetings. So I don't know if I ever saw -- I guess what I'm 21 saying is, I don't know if I ever saw a final list of who was 22 supposed to be on this committee. 23 Q Do you know you were on the committee with Huang? 24 A Yes. And this is the committee I was referring to, 25 that of the very few meetings I went to, which I believed 167 1 were maybe three or four over a period of several months, 2 maybe even a nine-month period, he was never at any of those 3 meetings. 4 Q Turn to Page 903, Footnote 24. 5 A I'm sorry? I'm sorry? 6 Q Bates number -- we call those little numbers at the 7 bottom on the right Bates numbers. 8 A 903? Okay. 9 Q Footnote 24. "The February 19th and 20th event was 10 chaired by DNC vice chair of finance, John Huang, and 11 included dinner and breakfast with President Clinton and Vice 12 President Gore respectively. Minimum contributions of 13 $25,000 per couple were required to attend the function." 14 Were you aware of this function? 15 A I read about it in the newspaper. 16 Q Did you attend that function? 17 A No, I did not. 18 Q Do you know of people who did? 19 A No, sir, I don't. 20 Q Turn to Footnote 28 on 905. "To date, the Office 21 of Asian Pacific Affairs has provided briefing papers for 22 President Bill Clinton, Vice President Gore, DNC chair Donald 23 Fowler, DNC co-chair Chris Dodd, and senior White House 24 officials." 25 You are aware that briefing papers were provided to 168 1 these people by the Office of Asian Pacific Affairs? 2 A No. 3 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I continue my objection 4 as to the relevance of this document. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let me see if I understand 6 some of these. Is the Office of Asian Pacific Affairs a 7 component of the Department of Commerce, Ms. Lew? 8 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you know what it is a component 10 of? 11 THE WITNESS: No, sir. In fact, I was just going 12 to ask where this office is from. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Mr. Klayman. Where is the 14 Office of Asian Pacific Affairs? Is it part of the 15 Department of Commerce? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I was going to ask the question you asked. 18 A I don't know. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You don't know? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Thanks. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Does anyone know of what it is a 22 part? Is it a part of the Department of State? Because I 23 know you served in the State Department. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Not that I'm aware of, but 25 that was many, many years ago. 169 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. But we don't know, 2 do we? None of us do? 3 MS. BRASWELL: So I continue my objection, to any 4 question -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll sustain the objection. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: And here is the crescendo, Your 7 Honor, Page 917. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 917? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The crescendo is coming. 11 THE WITNESS: 917. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Sub-part J. "Utilize Asian Pacific American 14 Heritage Month festivities as a means to increase 15 participation in DNC, Clinton-Gore, and other political 16 activities." 17 Now, isn't that true that the festivities of the 18 Asian Pacific American Heritage Month at the Commerce 19 Department were used as a means to increase participation in 20 DNC, Clinton-Gore, and other political activities? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. How does 22 this relate to a FOIA request in 1994? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It relates to the potential motive 24 among a particular group of people which Mr. Huang was 25 involved with, and he's a central figure in this case. I'd 170 1 like to know at least this one answer. Please answer Mr. 2 Klayman's question. 3 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, none of 4 the Department of Commerce Asian Pacific American activities 5 were used in this manner or fashion. 6 It was, in fact, one of the few times the Asian 7 Pacific employees at the Department of Commerce ever got 8 together, and it was usually like a lunch, a reception. I 9 believe one time Secretary Brown addressed them. There might 10 have been an outside speaker, I'm not sure. 11 But I'm not aware of it being used in that way. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So it's very similar to the 13 celebration of African American heritage? 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. And again, this is dated 15 April 1996. I left the Department -- I gave Secretary Brown 16 notice that I was leaving the Department in January. I had 17 left by March 1996. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Ms. Lew. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Now, you did participate in some events with John 21 Huang, some Asian events, correct? 22 A I remember, I believe -- let me go back and see if 23 I can remember what I testified to earlier. 24 MR. GAGNER: I'm going to object. This has been 25 asked and answered. 171 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Not in this way, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled, in this 3 particular context. Let's see if we can get through it. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Am I supposed to answer? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. I think I testified that he 8 called me about being a guest speaker at the Asian Pacific 9 Government Employees monthly lunch, which subsequently got 10 canceled because there was a government shutdown, and 11 rescheduled later. 12 And I believe I mentioned that he appeared at an 13 event in May that I believe was at the Sheraton Hotel. 14 And that's the extent of what I recall. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 16 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 17 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 34 was 18 marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q These are notes of Mr. Huang taken from his files 21 at the DNC. 22 A Mm-hmm. 23 Q You are able to identify Mr. Huang's handwriting, 24 correct? 25 A No, I've never seen it before. This is the first 172 1 time I've seen it. 2 Q It says "Asian Event," and it lists a number of 3 people. Do you know any of the people listed on the first 4 page, Pates Number 604? 5 A (Examining) I know Vida Benavides. 6 Q Where do you know him from? 7 A Her. 8 Q Her. 9 A She was also part of the transition office. I 10 believe she worked at the DNC one time. I don't know if it 11 was in the late '80s. 12 Q Turn to the second page. Do you recognize anybody 13 on the second page? 14 A Well, certainly my name. 15 Q Was that your telephone number at the Commerce 16 Department? 17 A That is the number for the general counsel's 18 office, yes. 19 Q Do you recognize anybody else? 20 A Maria Haley. I assume that's Haley, because it 21 says "XM" next to it. 22 Q There's something, "George" what? Is that -- what 23 does that say? 24 A I don't know what that is. And the rest I can't 25 see. I don't know what that is. 173 1 Q Does this document refresh your recollection as to 2 whether you participated in any other events with Mr. Huang? 3 A No, it does not. I don't see a date on this. I 4 don't know if this is like a phone list or something. I'm 5 not sure. 6 Q Did you ever attend events at the White House with 7 Mr. Huang present? 8 A Not that I remember. 9 Q Did you ever attend working group events at the 10 White House where Mr. Huang was present? 11 A You mean this particular working group? 12 Q Yes. Yes. 13 A I have testified that he was not present when I was 14 there. 15 Q Were there any working group meetings at the White 16 House? 17 A I think a couple of them were held in the, what's 18 referred to as the Ward, W-a-r-d Room, which is down near the 19 cafeteria. 20 Q Did you attend any of those meetings? 21 A Yes. That's where they were. 22 Q And who was present from the White House at those 23 meetings? 24 A I'm going to refer back to Exhibit 33. 25 Q Yes. 174 1 A Ms. Matsui; I think her special assistant, and I 2 don't remember her name; and I believe that was it. 3 Q And the purpose of this meeting was to plan fund- 4 raising activities? 5 A No, the purpose of the meeting was to start 6 developing community outreach programs for community leaders. 7 The purpose -- the part that we were specifically supposed to 8 be working on related to reaching out to community leaders 9 and specifically not fund-raising. It was just community 10 education and outreach. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, can we take like a two- 12 minute break? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. I was going to give 14 our reporter a five-minute break, anyway. 3:30, please. 15 (A brief recess was taken.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Can you turn to Page 903 of Exhibit -- I guess that 18 document, the National Asian Pacific American Campaign Plan. 19 A I'm sorry, Page? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: 33? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: 33. 903. 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, 903? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Mm-hmm. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Do you see that? 175 1 A This page? 2 Q Yeah, 903. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you see where it says "Fund-raising, Section 6"? 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q In fact, a purpose of this group that you were a 7 member of was to conduct fund-raising, correct? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, outside the scope. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: No, sir. As I explained earlier, my 11 participation in this was to develop a program for community 12 outreach and specifically not fund-raising. What others were 13 doing on this committee, I do not know. I can only speak to 14 what I was supposed to be doing. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Are you saying this section is incorrect? 17 A I -- this is the first time I've ever seen this 18 section. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Lew, before we leave that, if 20 you would look at that section again, could you help me? 21 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The abbreviation is APALC, the 23 Asian Pacific American Leadership Council? 24 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Referring backwards to Footnote 176 1 Number 1, where you are mentioned, and your group -- 2 THE WITNESS: My group was called the APA Working 3 Group. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Were you a member of the Asian 5 Pacific American Leadership Council? 6 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I was not. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Was Huang? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 11 reporter to mark as the following exhibit. 12 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 35 was 13 marked for identification.) 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Have you seen this document before? 16 A I'm not sure if I have. (Examining) I don't 17 believe I have. 18 Q This is a document written by Tim Weiner and David 19 Sanger. "Democrats hope to raise 7 million from Asians in 20 U.S." 21 A Mm-hmm. I assume this appeared in the New York 22 Times. It says "copyright" up here. I don't recall seeing 23 this. 24 Q Do you see where it says in the first paragraph, "A 25 White House official and a leading fund-raiser for the 177 1 Democratic National Committee helped devise a strategy to 2 raise an unprecedented 7 million from Asian-Americans, partly 3 by offering rewards to the largest donors, including special 4 access to the White House, the committee records show"? 5 A I see that statement, yes. 6 Q Do you agree with that statement? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Your Honor, this is a 8 document in December of 1996. There is no connection to the 9 issues in this FOIA case. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I disagree. I believe the 11 connection with Huang, his activities, is there, and has to 12 do with motivation of the Department of Commerce with 13 reference to the production of documents in response to the 14 FOIA request. Therefore, I'll overrule the objection. 15 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, may I be heard just 16 slightly further on the issue? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 18 MS. BRASWELL: It cannot be that the Judge's 19 opinion means that any question concerning anything John 20 Huang did at any time is fair game in these depositions. 21 There must be some tie to the FOIA request at issue. 22 Mr. Huang worked for a brief period at the 23 Department of Commerce. Therefore, activities he has engaged 24 in either before that or after that are not all, per se, 25 relevant in this case. 178 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Huang is the person identified 2 in Judge Lamberth's December 22nd order as having purposely 3 evaded service of process. He sat in that chair Ms. 4 Braswell, and by my count, took the Fifth Amendment several 5 hundred times with reference to all of his activities. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Undoubtedly. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He keeps showing up in all of 8 these documents, being identified as a person who seems to 9 have quite a bit to do with trade missions, their 10 composition, the participation of certain people in them, and 11 trips to China. Those topics, it seems to me, fall directly 12 within the scope of what Judge Lamberth authorized discovery 13 about 14 Even though I agree with you, there comes a point 15 where he leaves the Department of Commerce, takes off his 16 Commerce official hat and puts on his fund-raising hat, the 17 problem is there is such a close and intimate connection 18 between the latter activities and the former activities, that 19 it seems to me that Judge Lamberth intended the scope of this 20 discovery to include both. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, there is not a 22 connection that is obvious between all of the activities he 23 did at the DNC when he went there and his participation in 24 the trade missions. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But there is this connection, in 179 1 the sense that we have already identified in the discovery I 2 have seen that, for example, participants in the trade 3 missions were persons who were contributors, substantial 4 contributors to the DNC. 5 While I'm not absolutely certain, and have to 6 review what I recollect on the basis of the transcripts, it 7 is also to the best of my recollection that Huang had an 8 involvement with some of the same people, in terms of 9 soliciting contributions, who participated in the trade 10 missions, like Charlie Trie. 11 So that would mean, it seems to me, that Huang's 12 activities after he leaves Commerce, with particular 13 reference to raising money from Asian-Americans or Asian- 14 American entities, is the kind of connection that Judge 15 Lamberth expected to be probed, because it is important in 16 itself, and it also would bear on the motive of persons 17 either at the DNC or, more to the point, at the Department of 18 Commerce, to be less than enthusiastic, shall we say, in 19 finding documents that might tend to disclose what Huang was 20 doing, because both before and after, he seems to have a lot 21 to do with the raising of funds, raising of funds under 22 circumstances which at least there is circumstantial evidence 23 there was a kind of quid pro quo. 24 MS. BRASWELL: Well, I don't believe, Your Honor, 25 that the evidence shows that there was a quid pro quo. 180 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm not saying it does, but the 2 point is, I thought Judge Lamberth -- as I read Judge 3 Lamberth's memorandum opinion of December 22nd, that is the 4 kind of thing he expected discovery to probe. 5 MS. BRASWELL: If there can be some tie beyond just 6 mere speculation that perhaps because there might be fund- 7 raising, that maybe somebody did something with documents. 8 There has to be something more concrete that would 9 tie Mr. Huang's activities once he went to the DNC to the 10 creation, removal, or possible destruction of documents. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And the connection would be the 12 transmittal of documents from the DNC to the Department of 13 Commerce, for example, with reference to participation in 14 trade missions. 15 It would then follow, it seems to me, the Huang's 16 activities in his fund-raising, among the group of people, 17 bear certainly on a liberalized discovery standard, on the 18 possibility that documents reflecting those activities 19 -- transmittals by the DNC about Huang's activities, 20 transmittals by the DNC with reference to who should 21 participate in trade missions -- are exactly what Judge 22 Lamberth expected us to inquire into. 23 MS. BRASWELL: During a relevant time period, Your 24 Honor. We're talking about two years later. How could 25 Huang's activities two years, later in any kind of fund- 181 1 raising, bear on whether or not documents existed in 1994 2 regarding trade missions that occurred in 1994? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, I would agree with 4 you, but correct me if I'm wrong. 5 We are focusing not so much on the creation of 6 their documents but their potential destruction in accordance 7 with the FOIA request, and therefore, examination of Huang's 8 activity with particular reference to fund-raising and the 9 participation of certain people in DNC activities which had 10 to do with trade missions, and their participation in other 11 activities which were being sponsored by the DNC to recognize 12 their contribution to that activity would bear on whether or 13 not the search for the documents by the Department of 14 Commerce was as comprehensive as it should have been and 15 whether there is a possibility that some of the records were 16 destroyed to cover up the activities of Mr. Huang. 17 As I understand Judge Lamberth -- I agree with you 18 it's not crystalline clear from the memorandum opinion -- he 19 specifically wanted us to look into that. 20 MS. BRASWELL: If there was any evidence of a 21 connection, Your Honor. But when you go into a long area of 22 questioning regarding activities occurring two years later, 23 and there was no attempt to show any relevance to documents 24 that could have existed in 1994 and then were possibly 25 destroyed, there's no connection being made with any of this 182 1 questioning. 2 It seems to me that what is happening is that any 3 question concerning John Huang seems to be fair game, 4 regardless of any connection, and Mr. Klayman is not being 5 required to make that connection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Not any connection. But it seems 7 to me, Ms. Braswell, that questions which relate to Huang's 8 activity, even if he left the Department of Commerce, that 9 bear on his raising the money either from Asian-Americans or 10 perhaps from Asian entities themselves, have a connection in 11 the lawsuit, because they may cast some light on the 12 motivation that the Department of Commerce had when it 13 searched for the documents in response to the FOIA request. 14 That's my ruling. I think, Ms. Braswell, 15 obviously, I mean, I've been struggling with this, because I 16 don't think this is an area where lapidary judgments can be 17 made. But now that I've laid it out, it might very well be 18 for you to go to Judge Lamberth and go back to the source, 19 and see if I am misinterpreting what he wants me to do, 20 because your point is well taken. 21 But I honestly believe that this man's activity 22 -- I probably would not have -- I probably didn't feel as 23 strongly as I did until he sat there and took the Fifth 24 Amendment several hundred times. 25 Although it is his constitutional privilege, it 183 1 doesn't give a judge a heck of a lot of confidence that his 2 activities were aboveboard, and if they weren't, they cast 3 some light on the connection between him and the people at 4 the Department of Commerce, and that light may bear on the 5 sufficiency of their response to the FOIA request. 6 As I say, Ms. Braswell, if I've gone too far 7 afield, I would urge you to get clarification of our 8 responsibilities here from Judge Lamberth. I may well be 9 reading his instructions to me broader than I should. 10 MR. GAGNER: Can I be heard on my objection, which 11 is more narrow? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly, yes. I didn't mean to 13 cut you off, Ms. Braswell. Would you like to be heard? 14 Counsel. 15 MR. GAGNER: Mr. Klayman asked as to Paragraph 1 of 16 the newspaper article whether Ms. Lew agrees with it or not, 17 and my objection was that there is a lot -- that is 18 impossible to answer, Your Honor. And if I need to go into 19 it more maybe Ms. Lew ought to step out. It may be it can be 20 rephrased. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, I think we can move on from 22 there. Mr. Klayman, I think it is a bit hard for this 23 witness or any witness to agree or disagree with what appears 24 to be the summary of the contentions that are going to be 25 made in this article. Why don't we move on, if we can, from 184 1 that broad a summary to more specific information? Okay? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Well, the point I was trying to get to is that 4 second paragraph that says: "This strategy is laid out in a 5 national Asian Pacific American campaign plan," which is the 6 campaign plan we just discussed. 7 Does that cause you, then, to reconsider, Ms. Lew, 8 that in fact this working group that you were part of, a 9 component of it was fund-raising? 10 A I can only speak to the activities in which I was 11 involved. As I mentioned, my recollection is that I attended 12 approximately three of these meetings, three of these 13 sessions, one actually sometime in -- was it January or 14 December -- January, I guess. 15 There may have been one in March, which I ended up 16 missing. I was on my way to the meeting and was called back 17 to the SBA, so I ended up not being able to attend, and then 18 a third session. 19 And I can only testify as to what I know in terms 20 of the activities, and at the first session, at which I 21 believe, well, I know Mr. Huang wasn't there, but I think 22 some of the other people who are also identified here were 23 not there, as well, we talked generally about the preparation 24 of a community outreach to business leaders and that there 25 was, in fact, a specific statement made that it was not fund- 185 1 raising related. 2 And I know I missed a couple of critical meetings 3 sometime in January, February because I was in transition 4 from the Department of Commerce at that time, and I was not 5 able to attend some of those sessions. So -- 6 Q If you -- oh, I'm sorry. 7 A No, no. So I mean, when you show me this document, 8 to the best of my recollection, this is the first time I have 9 seen this. 10 Q If you had seen this document before, before you 11 actually began to participate in this working group, and you 12 saw that, as listed on this document, that one of the goals 13 was fund-raising, you would have quit, wouldn't you? 14 MR. GAGNER: Objection, Your Honor. 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. This is 16 vague. This refers to different groups. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah. Ms. Lew, there are two 18 entities mentioned in the article, as I understand it. One 19 is the working group. 20 THE WITNESS: Correct. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And the second is the one -- there 22 is a second group. 23 THE WITNESS: The leadership council that you 24 referred to? 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah. And you were a member of 186 1 which one? 2 THE WITNESS: The working group. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: During the course of your 4 involvement with the working group, were you aware that it 5 had any fund-raising component or activity assigned to it? 6 THE WITNESS: No, I was not. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Were you aware that some other 8 entity did have a fund-raising component assigned to it as 9 part of the DNC program to involve Asian-Americans more 10 completely in the American political process? 11 THE WITNESS: You said that was related to this 12 group? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah. In other words, were you 14 aware that DNC had also created a group that has a more 15 specific of raising funds from the Asian-American group, and 16 Mr. Huang was a central player in that? Were you aware of 17 that? 18 THE WITNESS: I was aware that they were going to 19 create. Now, whether they had or not, I don't know if they 20 had. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But were you aware that that had 22 an aspect to it of raising funds? 23 THE WITNESS: To this? No, I was not. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You were not aware that Mr. Huang 25 was going to have any responsibility for fund-raising? 187 1 THE WITNESS: No, I think my answer was that I was 2 not aware that the Asian Pacific -- Asian Pacific American 3 Leadership Council had a linkage or role or function with the 4 Asian Pacific American Working Group. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I see. So you were not aware that 6 there was this leadership council that had a specific fund- 7 raising responsibility and was committed to doing that? 8 THE WITNESS: And as I mentioned, I remember, 9 cannot tell you where it was, that they were going to do 10 something. Whether this leadership council is that, what 11 they did, I don't know. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But you never involved 13 yourself in that activity? 14 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I think Mr. Klayman's 16 question, to get back to where we started, was did you ever 17 consider the propriety of the involvement of persons like 18 yourself, who are distinguished and high-ranking public 19 officials, in fund-raising activities while they continued to 20 be employed by the United States? 21 THE WITNESS: It was my own personal policy not to 22 be involved in any fund-raising activities while I was a 23 member of the administration. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 188 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q And my question was that if you had learned that 3 any of these groups were engaged in fund-raising, you would 4 have resigned? 5 MR. GAGNER: Objection, Your Honor. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, I think that's a fair 8 question. But be careful. He's talking about the two 9 groups. He's melded back together the two groups you've 10 talked about. 11 THE WITNESS: I would have resigned from and Asian 12 Pacific American Working Group. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Had you learned that it was 14 involved in fund-raising? 15 THE WITNESS: Correct. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Ms. Lew. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q And had you known that they had meetings at the 19 White House and discussed fund-raising? 20 A Well, excuse me. I'm -- are you referring to the 21 leadership council or are you referring to the working group? 22 Q Asian Pacific American Working Group. 23 A So you're asking me had I known they had had 24 meetings at the White House regarding fund-raising, would I 25 have resigned? 189 1 Q Yeah. 2 A Is that your statement? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. You are aware that John Huang provided 6 advice on Far Eastern trade at the Commerce Department? 7 A I think -- Mr. Klayman, I believe I have testified 8 that I was not aware of his job responsibilities. 9 Q Did you ever hear Ms. Melinda Yee say that? 10 A I don't recall. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 12 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 13 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 36 was 14 marked for identification.) 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q This is an article dated November 4, 1994, Sam Chu 17 Lin is the reporter: "Democrats Eye the Disgruntled APA 18 Voter." Have you ever seen this before? 19 A Not that I recall, no. 20 Q Turn to the second page at the bottom: "Melinda 21 Yee, director of policy development programs with the 22 International Trade Administration in the Commerce Department 23 said Asian Pacific Americans are regular" -- I guess 24 "regularly" -- "asked for their input on important business 25 matters. 190 1 "She said `We have brought Asian Pacific American 2 business leaders into briefings and asked them for their 3 recommendations. John Huang, who is deputy assistant 4 secretary for international economic policy, knows a lot 5 about the Far East. He's always giving us advice.'" 6 You don't have any reason to disagree with Ms. 7 Yee's statements, do you? 8 A I don't have any knowledge for agreeing or 9 disagreeing with that statement. 10 Q Now, during the time that you were with the 11 Commerce Department, you were aware that there was a system 12 for selecting trade mission participants, correct? 13 A I was aware that there was a process. "System" 14 might be too -- suggest too much order. But, anyway. 15 Q How did you become aware of a process? 16 A I believe at one of the staff meetings, Ms. Moss 17 reported that she was receiving -- she was the sort of 18 contact point for names, et cetera. 19 Q Who was at that staff meeting? 20 A Sir, I can't recall. 21 Q When did that staff meeting occur? 22 A I can't recall. 23 Q You were at the meeting, Ms. Moss. Was Mr. Stein 24 there? 25 A Yes. 191 1 Q Was Ms. Sally Painter there? 2 A I don't -- I don't know. I don't know. I don't 3 recall. 4 Q Were there others who would have logically been 5 there but you can't remember right now, those in the ordinary 6 course that would be there? 7 A Perhaps, but I can't recall. 8 Q There were people that took notes at that meeting? 9 A Sir, I do not know. 10 Q What specifically was said about Ms. Moss being the 11 contact point? 12 A My recollection is that she would be the contact 13 point. 14 Q What did the contact point entail? 15 A I do not know, but I'm going to assume receiving 16 the names. 17 Q Was there discussion as to how she would get the 18 names? 19 A Not in my presence. 20 Q Was there discussion as to whether or not this 21 selection process needed to be legally reviewed before put 22 into effect? 23 A I'm sorry, I don't -- 24 Q Was there any discussion as to whether your office, 25 the general counsel's office, needed to look at it from a 192 1 legal standpoint before the selection process was 2 implemented? 3 A Our office was not involved in the selection 4 process at all. 5 Q Was there discussion as to whether it should be 6 looked at legally? 7 A Not that I recall. 8 Q Was there any discussion in terms of affirmative 9 action criteria to get to go on a trade trip, anything to 10 that effect? 11 A There was certainly a discussion that the Secretary 12 wanted to have a mixture of people, meaning both large 13 business and small, business men and women, some ethnic 14 diversity, though the key thing was really more a mixture of 15 large and small, men and women. 16 Q Was there any discussion as to whether this process 17 of choosing a mixture of people constituted a quota for any 18 particular class of people? 19 A Not that I'm aware of. 20 Q Was there any discussion as to whether or not, 21 given the fact that there was a conscious discussion of a 22 mixture of people, that that would have to be reviewed under 23 affirmative action regulations? 24 A Not that I recall. 25 Q Did you ever express a concern that, as long as 193 1 you're choosing people by the basis of criteria that goes 2 beyond just merit, that you would have to review it legally? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to sustain the 5 objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever express a desire to review how the 8 selection process was done from a legal standpoint -- you, 9 Ginger Lew, general counsel, your office? 10 A No, I did not. 11 Q Were you concerned in any way that affirmative 12 action guidelines and/or civil rights guidelines would be 13 potentially violated if this process was not monitored 14 pursuant to the legal requirements? 15 A That question or issue had never come to my mind, 16 in large measure because I never believed that there was an 17 expressed or implied so-called quota, so to speak. 18 Q Was there any discussion that minority applicants 19 would be given preference? 20 A No, not that I recall. 21 Q Do you know of any such discussion, orally or in 22 writing, at any time while you were at the Department? 23 A Not that I recall, no. 24 Q Were there any written guidelines prepared to 25 determine who to select and who not to select? 194 1 A Not that I'm aware of. 2 Q Were there any guidelines or procedures put in 3 effect to determine how to notify companies that they were 4 selected? 5 A I'm not aware of them, no. 6 Q Were there any guidelines or other criteria put 7 into effect to determine how to notify companies that weren't 8 selected and to give them rights of appeal? 9 A I am not aware of that. 10 Q Do you know of any criteria that were developed 11 after that meeting that were committed to writing? 12 A For the selection companies? 13 Q Yes. 14 A Not that I'm aware of. 15 Q Did there come a point in time when you gained an 16 understanding as to specifically how the companies were 17 selected? 18 A Not really, no, at least not that I remember. I 19 was not involved in the selection process, was not reviewing 20 the materials. 21 Q Was there anyone who worked under you as general 22 counsel who was involved in the selection process, other than 23 Benning? You testified to that. 24 A Not that I'm aware of. 25 Q Were there ever any complaints filed by companies 195 1 or individuals who weren't selected to go on trade missions? 2 A I have no knowledge of that. 3 Q Do you know who might have knowledge of that, or 4 who does have knowledge of that? 5 A No, sir, I do not. 6 Q Do you know how companies were notified of their 7 selection to go on trade missions? 8 A No, I do not. 9 Q So the bottom line here is that the general 10 counsel's office had no involvement in any way, shape, or 11 form in the selection of participants on the trade missions? 12 A To the best of my recollection, yes. 13 Q This was done someplace else in the department? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And your office was not kept apprised of how it was 16 done? 17 A That is correct. 18 Q Do you know whether that changed after you left the 19 Commerce Department, whether the general counsel's office was 20 then advised of how selection was done? 21 A I don't know, sir. 22 Q Did you ever talk about the issue of selection of 23 trade mission participants with your successor? That was Sue 24 Esserman? 25 A Yes, my successor was Sue Esserman. No, I did not. 196 1 Q Have you ever discussed Judicial Watch's case with 2 Sue Esserman? 3 A She called me to notify me that I was going to be 4 deposed, and that's the only discussion we had. 5 Q What else did she tell you, other than you were 6 going to be deposed? 7 A That was it. 8 Q Were you aware at the time of the meeting that you 9 just described, that Melissa Moss attended, that she was 10 previously a fund-raiser of the Democratic National 11 Committee? 12 A I knew she had a position at the DNC, but I did not 13 know what that was. 14 Q Did you know whether or not she had left the 15 Democratic National Committee with DNC donor lists? 16 A I do not know, sir. 17 Q Did Secretary Brown ever consult with you about the 18 method or criteria for selecting trade mission participants? 19 A No, he did not. 20 Q You are aware that at a point in time, Judicial 21 Watch filed FOIA requests, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you know whether or not the Office of the 24 Secretary was searched in response to Judicial Watch's FOIA 25 requests? 197 1 A I do not know, sir. 2 Q Do you know of anyone who does? 3 A That would have been the responsibility of the 4 Executive Secretariat. 5 Q Who in your office was encharged with assisting in 6 the compliance with Judicial Watch's FOIA requests? 7 A Initially, it was my assistant, David Peterson, and 8 then Kathleen Ambrose. 9 Q What did you assign Mr. Peterson to do? 10 A My recollection is that he came to me with the 11 requests, asked me if I had any relevant documents. Since I 12 keep almost no files of any kind in my office -- rather, 13 they're maintained by him -- I asked him to search my files. 14 I particularly remember asking him to check my travel 15 vouchers. 16 Q So he had responsibility for just simply checking 17 your office? 18 A I assume he was going over to talk with the others 19 in the immediate office. I mean, just as he came to my 20 office, I assume he was going to the other offices. 21 Q What was the role of Kathy Ambrose? 22 A Kathleen -- 23 Q Yeah. 24 A -- Ambrose? To basically receive any requests 25 from the FOIA offices and to ensure that a thorough search 198 1 was done. 2 Q Her role was to deal with the other offices to make 3 sure it was done? 4 A The immediate office. 5 Q Did your office have any function in liaising with 6 other Department of Commerce offices in response to Judicial 7 Watch's FOIA requests? 8 A No. That responsibility rests with, or lay with 9 the Freedom of Information Office and the Executive 10 Secretariat. 11 Q Did your office ever provide advice to other 12 offices in the department, in responding to Judicial Watch's 13 FOIA requests? 14 A I do not know. That advice, if given, or if asked 15 for, would have been provided by Ms. Fredericks' office. 16 Q I think you may have testified to this. I 17 apologize if it's asking the question again. When did you 18 leave the department again? 19 A I testified that I gave the Secretary notice that I 20 was leaving in January, and that I left in March, early 21 March. 22 Q January '96? 23 A 1996. 24 Q Okay. And you finally left in March? 25 A Yes, sir. I was trying to leave by February, and 199 1 it kept getting extended. 2 Q Did you play any role in a decision whether or not 3 to initially grant Judicial Watch a fee waiver? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I don't recall, sir. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you play any role in determining whether or not 9 certain documents should be claimed to be exempt in response 10 to Judicial Watch's FOIA requests? 11 A No, I did not. 12 Q Do you know who did? 13 A That would have been the FOIA lawyers who worked 14 with Ms. Fredericks. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I am not familiar with all the 16 pleadings in this case, but when the response was made in 17 court to the FOIA request, did it bear your signature on 18 behalf of the Department of Commerce? 19 THE WITNESS: No, it did not. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did it bear the signature of any 21 attorney with the Department of Commerce? 22 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I would assume it's 23 from Department of Justice. I'm not sure. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 25 200 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever seen lists of companies or lists of 3 names of potential participants, individuals, or companies 4 sent by the Democratic National Committee to the Commerce 5 Department for inclusion or possible inclusion on trade 6 missions? 7 A No, I have not. 8 Q Are you aware of the Democratic National Committee 9 having sent names of individuals and companies for inclusion 10 on the trade missions? 11 A Do I have knowledge of that? No. 12 Q Do you know who does? 13 A No, sir, I do not. 14 Q Have you ever made inquiry with anybody that you 15 worked with at Commerce as to whether or not Democrat donors 16 were selected to go on Department of Commerce trade missions? 17 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? 18 Q Have you ever made inquiry with anyone as to 19 whether or not donors to the Democratic Party or the Clinton- 20 Gore campaigns were selected to go on trade missions? 21 A I have made no such inquiries. 22 Q Have you ever discussed this with Sue Esserman? 23 A No, sir. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 25 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 37. 201 1 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 37 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q This is a document dated January 26, 1994 to Rob 5 Saidler from Sally Painter. Have you ever seen this document 6 before? 7 A No, sir, I have not. 8 Q Do you know who Rob Saidler is? 9 A Well, it says "attorney" up here, but I don't 10 recall the individual. 11 Q Did he work in the general counsel's office? 12 A Well, if he's an attorney, yes, he did. You know, 13 I'm sorry, but when you have 300-plus attorneys in an agency, 14 it's difficult, and having five years of passage, it's hard 15 to remember any individual. 16 Q I believe it's Saidler. I may have mispronounced 17 that. 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Does that ring a bell? 20 A Again, he may be one of the attorneys. I just 21 don't know. 22 Q You know who Sally Painter was, correct? 23 A Yes, she -- yes. She was -- I'm not sure if she 24 was in intergovernmental or -- I can't remember what office 25 she was in, but I remember her. 202 1 Q The operating unit, OS, Deputy Director, Office of 2 Business Liaison, that's where Sally Painter worked? 3 A If that's what it says. I mean, I don't recall her 4 being in -- I don't recall working with her that much. 5 Q Would it refresh your recollection if you knew that 6 she was the assistant to Melissa Moss? 7 A Oh, okay. That does, yeah. 8 Q That rings a bell? 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q Now, you recognize she was the assistant to Melissa 11 Moss? 12 A Well, I believe she was in the office. I'm not 13 sure what position she occupied. 14 Q Have you ever seen a form like this before, at the 15 Commerce Department -- 16 A No. 17 Q -- telephone notes? 18 A Nope. 19 Q It says on her notes: "With respect to Secretary's 20 trip to Russia, may she accept a list of companies from the 21 DNC which they would like to be considered for inclusion" 22 "Advised, yes, but Secretary who has a one-year 23 recusal form from matter to which the DNC or represents a 24 party, and others who asked for DNC" -- 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think that's "worked." 203 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q -- "who worked for DNC must be excluded from 3 reviewing the DNC list." Do you know whose initials those 4 are? 5 A No, sir, I do not. 6 Q That's Rob Saidler? 7 A I don't know. I don't recognize it. 8 Q Then it says on the left: "For Barbara Fredericks" 9 -- "Per Barbara Fredericks, David Maggi," M-a-g-g-i. Did you 10 know David Maggi? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Who was David Maggi? 13 A David Maggi worked with Barbara Fredericks, as a 14 deputy in her office. 15 Q Can you read the handwriting below the initials? 16 A I'm sorry, below this? 17 Q Yes, to the right. 18 A (Examining) No, sir, I cannot. 19 Q Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 20 or not names of potential participants on trade missions, 21 such as the one to Russia, were provided by the DNC to the 22 Commerce Department? 23 A No, this does not refresh my recollection. 24 Q Did you ever discuss participation on trade 25 missions with Barbara Fredericks? 204 1 A I believe the discussions I had with her related to 2 being sure to work closely with the travel team and with the 3 assigned special assistant to make sure they were getting the 4 appropriate ethics advice and whatever else advice they 5 needed. 6 Q David Maggi? 7 A She may have delegated that to Davis, or I'm not 8 sure. David is one of her senior people. Do you have a 9 clearer -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: No. I'm going to ask Ms. Braswell if 11 she can procure for us a cleaner copy of this document. 12 MS. BRASWELL: I will do so, to the extent I can. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: If possible, if we can look at the 14 original at the next deposition, that would be very helpful. 15 I'll ask that the next document be marked. 16 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 38 was 17 marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Have you ever seen this document before? Take an 20 opportunity to look at it. 21 A Yeah. 22 (Witness examines the document.) 23 THE WITNESS: No, I do not recall. And this was 24 before I was general counsel for the department. 25 205 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Does it refresh your recollection as to whether or 3 not names were provided by the DNC to the Commerce Department 4 for inclusion on trade missions? 5 A I haven't adequately examined it. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 7 (Witness examines the document.) 8 THE WITNESS: No, sir, it does not. It's the first 9 time I've seen this document. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I will ask the court 11 reporter to mark as the next document. 12 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 39 was 13 marked for identification.) 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Before you began to work at the Commerce 16 Department, you were a consultant for a period of time, 17 right? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And how long was that? 20 A I believe I testified I started sometime in the 21 summer, late summer, until the time I was confirmed. 22 Q Late summer of what year? 23 A '93. 24 Q So this document was prepared after you consulted 25 as a consultant at the Commerce Department? 206 1 A Correct, but before I became general counsel. 2 Q But you still never saw it? 3 A Correct. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the next document be 5 marked. 6 MS. BRASWELL: You were referring to Exhibit 38? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q This is a memorandum to Melissa Moss from Sally 10 Painter of August 6, 1993. Have you seen this document 11 before? 12 A No, sir, I have not. 13 Q Do you know an Ira Fischman? 14 A The name is familiar, but I'm not sure where he or 15 she works. 16 Q Have you ever heard of a Rick Boylan of the 17 Democratic National Committee, B-o-y-l-a-n? 18 A I'm sorry? B-o -- 19 Q Rick Boylan? 20 A No. 21 Q Alice Travis? 22 A Not that I recall. 23 Q Do you know William Ginsburg? 24 A Yes. 25 Q How did you get to know him? 207 1 A He was the assistant secretary for economic 2 development. 3 Q Do you know whether he kept a diary when he was the 4 Commerce Department? 5 A I read about it in the newspaper. 6 Q Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that? 7 A No, sir, I do not. 8 Q Do you know what's in the diary? 9 A No, sir, I do not. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Off the record. 11 (Discussion off the record.) 12 MS. BRASWELL: I don't know. I'll be glad to find 13 out and get back to you. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know whether he kept any state secrets in 17 any writings while he was at the Commerce Department, any 18 classified material? 19 A I have no such knowledge, sir. May I review this? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 21 (Witness examines the document.) 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: This will be 39? 23 MS. BRASWELL: 40, isn't it? Oh, I'm sorry. We're 24 look at 39. I'm sorry. 25 (Witness examines the document.) 208 1 THE WITNESS: No, I do not recall ever seeing this 2 before. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I will ask the court 4 reporter to mark as Exhibit 40. This is a letter of July 25, 5 1994 to Melissa Moss from Terry McAuliffe. 6 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 40 was 7 marked for identification.) 8 (Interruption to the proceedings.) 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 12 A No, sir, I have not. 13 Q Do you know a David Freitsen? 14 A No. 15 Q A Mr. Belvin? 16 A No, I do not. 17 Q Do you know whether any of these two individuals 18 went on a trade trip to China? 19 A I would have to consult the earlier exhibit you 20 gave me. 21 Q Do you know a Terry McAuliffe? 22 A If I have met him, it would have been in an 23 extraordinarily huge setting, but I believe I have probably 24 never met him. 25 Q Do you know whether he engaged in fund-raising at 209 1 the Democratic National Committee? 2 A I know he holds a position there, but I do not know 3 what it is. 4 Q Have you ever had any contact with him? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you ever had any discussions with him? 7 A Like I said, if I met him at, you know, a huge 8 event where there were thousands of people, I may have shaken 9 his hand, but I don't recall. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you the next document, which I 11 ask be marked as Exhibit 41. This is a document dated March 12 30, 1994, Minority Exporters, to Tracey Rancifer, R-a-n-c-i- 13 f-e-r. 14 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 41 was 15 marked for identification.) 16 (Witness examines the document.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever seen this document before? It 19 consists of two pages, Bates Numbers 3332005 and 3332006. 20 A No, sir, I have not. No, sir, I have not. 21 Q Do you know who Tracey Rancifer is? 22 A She was a special assistant. I'm not sure if she 23 was in the Secretary's office or whether she was in some 24 other office. 25 Q Special assistant to Ron Brown? 210 1 A I'm not sure if she worked in ITA or -- she was a 2 special assistant someplace, but I'm not sure where. 3 Q How did you get to know her? 4 A No, I mean I probably met her in the hallway type 5 of thing, but I -- that's the extent of our interaction. 6 Q Do you know whether she played a role in the 7 selection of trade mission participants? 8 A No, I do not. 9 Q Do you know whether she had any contacts with the 10 Democratic National Committee? 11 A No, I do not. 12 Q This is a document which comes from the files of 13 the Democratic National Committee. Does that refresh your 14 recollection? 15 A No, it does not. I have not seen this document 16 before? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 18 reporter to mark as Exhibit 42. 19 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 42 was 20 marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 23 A I haven't received it. Can you give me a moment? 24 (Witness examines the document.) 25 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I have not. 211 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you know whether any of the individuals and 3 companies listed on this document were selected for trade 4 missions? 5 A No, I do not. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 7 reporter to mark as Exhibit 43. 8 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 43 was 9 marked for identification.) 10 (Witness examines the document.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 13 A No, sir, I have not. 14 Q Do you know whether it came from Commerce 15 Department files? 16 A I haven't a clue. I have no idea. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 18 reporter to mark as Exhibit 44. 19 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 44 was 20 marked for identification.) 21 (Witness examines the document.) 22 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Are these continuous? Is 23 this -- are these columns continued with these columns? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 212 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q I'm asking if you've ever seen it before. 3 A Okay. No, I have not seen it before. I have no 4 recollection of seeing it before. 5 Q Turn to Bates Number 4303326. 6 A 433 -- ? 7 Q 43303226. 8 A 3326. Yes. 9 Q Have you ever seen this entry page before? It's 10 called "Donor File." 11 A No, sir, I have not. 12 Q This document comes from the Democratic National 13 Committee, as noted by the Bates number, and it says at the 14 bottom: "Several Commerce trade missions." Does that 15 refresh your recollection as to whether you've ever seen this 16 before? 17 A No, sir, I have not. 18 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 19 the DNC ever provided names of trade mission participants to 20 the Commerce Department? 21 A As I have testified earlier, I do not know that the 22 Commerce -- or was aware that the DNC may have provided such 23 names. 24 Q Turn to the next page, 4303306. 25 A Mm-hmm. 213 1 Q Entries at the bottom, "Commerce South Africa trip, 2 Charlie Trie, Little Rock." 3 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 4 or not the DNC has provided names in the past to the Commerce 5 Department for trade missions? 6 A No, it does not. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 8 reporter to mark as Exhibit 45. This is the desk diary of 9 John Huang. 10 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 45 was 11 marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q I turn your attention to an entry on July 18th. 14 A July 18th? 15 Q Yes. That's 94063. 16 A Yes. 17 Q The actual entry is July 20th of 1994. 18 A I'm sorry. Okay. 19 Q Okay? 20 A Okay. 21 Q Do you see the entries on that date? 22 A Mm-hmm. 23 Q Okay. Mr. Huang lists at 2:00 p.m. a China trip 24 meeting. 25 A Mm-hmm. 214 1 Q And then below, all the say at the bottom, at 7:30, 2 it says, "Ginger Lew, general counsel/dinner 4772." Did you 3 have dinner with Mr. Huong on that date? 4 A I believe he canceled. 5 Q Who set up the dinner, you or Mr. Huang? 6 A I believe I did. 7 Q What was the purpose of that dinner? 8 A I had asked some Asian appointees to have dinner. 9 Q Who, in addition to Mr. Huang? 10 A There was Maria Haley, Charles Toi, Nancy Lynn 11 Patton. I think there were a couple of others, but I can't 12 remember. 13 Q What was the purpose why you invited all those 14 people to have dinner with Mr. Huang? 15 A I wasn't inviting them to have dinner with Mr. 16 Huang. I was inviting them just to get together for dinner. 17 Q What were you going to discuss? 18 A It was a social dinner. 19 Q Did you know all those other people before you 20 invited them -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- except for Mr. Huang? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Had you met Mr. Huang before that? 25 A I don't know when he joined the department. As I 215 1 testified earlier, the first time I met him was after he 2 joined the department, so I'm not sure when he joined and 3 what time frame this is. 4 Q Was the purpose of that meeting to coordinate fund- 5 raising activities for the Democratic Party or Clinton-Gore 6 campaign? 7 A No, it was just to get together to have dinner. It 8 was a gathering. 9 Q Where was the dinner going to take place? 10 A I believe it was at the Occidental. It's been, 11 again, five years. I can't remember. 12 Q Mr. Huang had just been at the Department of 13 Commerce for two days, correct? In fact, on July 18th, it 14 says "Huang's first day," first entry. 15 A Well, this could be his drink with me. I don't 16 remember. 17 Q Did there come a point in time when this dinner or 18 drink was re-set? 19 A No, we did have the drink, and I have testified 20 that that was the first time we met. I subsequently had 21 arranged a dinner for a number of Asian-American appointees, 22 and he did not attend. I thought this is what that was 23 referring to. 24 Q Did you have the drink on that day? 25 A I'm sorry, on which day? 216 1 Q July 20, 1994? 2 A I can't recall the day that we met. I can only 3 tell you that it occurred soon after he got there. 4 Q Did that meeting with all the Asian-American 5 appointees ever happen? 6 A The dinner? 7 Q Yes. 8 A I think we ended up postponing it a couple of 9 different times, but -- and the size of it kept changing, but 10 I think it ended up being a pretty small group. 11 Q Was Melinda Yee invited to that dinner? 12 A I don't think so. 13 Q Was there a reason why she wasn't invited? 14 A No. As I said, it was a social thing. 15 Q Was Hoyt Zia invited to that dinner? 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q He may have been? 18 A Again, trying to recall a spur of the moment, 19 trying to get a dinner -- people together, and having 20 people's schedules change and cancel and whatever, I can only 21 tell you that he may have, he may not have. I'm not sure. I 22 don't think he was. I think, in fact, it ended up being 23 mostly women, and one guy, and that one guy was Charles Toi. 24 Q Where did he work? 25 A He's the general counsel for OPIC. 217 1 Q Now, at the time that this meeting was initially 2 arranged, you knew that Mr. Huang had had ties to the Lippo 3 Group, correct? 4 A This meeting? 5 Q July 20, 1994? 6 A I don't know if I knew that at that time or not. 7 I'm not sure. 8 Q And you knew that he, in fact -- 9 A I said I did not know. 10 Q You knew that he, in fact, worked for the Riadys? 11 A No, sir, I did not know that. 12 Q You knew that Mr. Huang was a very powerful man at 13 that time, correct? 14 A No. I knew that he was a new political appointee 15 joining the Department of Commerce, and he was from Los 16 Angeles, and that he had a financial background. 17 Q Why would you invite him but not invite somebody 18 you worked with like Hoyt Zia? 19 A As I mentioned earlier, this was the courtesy call, 20 "Let's get together, let's meet for the first time." And 21 then I testified earlier I believe I had something with Hoyt. 22 It could have been a cup of coffee. It might have been 23 lunch. I'm not sure what. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Turn your attention to what I'll ask 25 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 46, John Huang calendar 218 1 book, 1995. 2 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 46 was 3 marked for identification.) 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Turn to the entry on March 19th. That's the page 6 marked the 19th. It's Bates numbers 95029. I'm looking 7 under the entry Thursday, March 16th. 8 A Yes. 9 Q 1995. Do you see where it says at 3:00 p.m. Mr. 10 Huang has you down as "Ginger Lew"? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And at 4 O'clock he lists "John Dickerson." You 13 know who John Dickerson is, right? 14 A No, I do not, sir. 15 Q He is the CIA agent that briefed John Huang with 16 classified materials. Now, do you know why you were meeting 17 with him at 3:00 p.m., right before Mr. Dickerson was 18 scheduled to brief him? 19 A To the best of my recollection, he did not come to 20 any meeting. He canceled. 21 Q You set up a meeting with him? 22 A I'm not sure if he set it up or he called -- I 23 believe he called me, but I don't know why. 24 Q What was the purpose of the meeting? 25 A I just testified that I do not know or recollect 219 1 why he may have -- 2 Q Did Mr. Huang ever show you classified information 3 that he obtained at the Commerce Department? 4 A No, he did not. 5 Q Did you ever assist Mr. Huang in taking classified 6 material out of the Commerce Department? 7 A No, I did not. 8 Q Do you know of those who did assist Mr. Huang in 9 any such endeavor? 10 A I have no such knowledge, sir. 11 Q Did Mr. Huang ever tell you that he'd go across the 12 street sometimes at lunch to Stephens, Inc. and use their 13 offices? 14 A No, he did not. 15 Q Are you aware of that? 16 A I read about it in the paper. 17 Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang had access to any 18 particular types of classified information? 19 A No, sir, I do not. 20 Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang ever visited the 21 Chinese Embassy? 22 A I do not know of it. I read about it in the paper. 23 Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang had any friends who 24 were employed by the Peoples Republic of China? 25 A I do not know that. 220 1 Q Do you know whether he ever stayed over night at 2 the Embassy of the People's Republic of China? 3 A I do not know that. I do not know that. 4 Q Do you know whether he ever took any trips to the 5 People's Republic of China during the period that he worked 6 at the Commerce Department? 7 A I do not. 8 Q Or thereafter? 9 A No, I do not know that. 10 Q Do you know whether he made any phone calls from 11 the Commerce Department to mainland China? 12 A I do not know that, sir. 13 Q Were you aware of any contacts by Mr. Huang with 14 the Democratic National Committee when he was with the 15 Commerce Department? 16 A No, I am not. 17 Q I'll show you what I'll ask you to turn to, it's 18 Bates numbers 95099 and the entry of November 17, 1995. 19 A November 17th? I'm sorry, because the Bates 20 numbers -- 21 Q Right. November 17th. That's 95099. Do you see 22 that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q You're listed as having a meeting with him at 25 12:15. 221 1 A Yes. This is the lunch I referred to when I 2 testified that he had asked me to be a guest speaker at the 3 Asian-American Government Executives Lunch. 4 Q Did he say why he wanted you to speak there? 5 A Again, I'm not sure if I talked to him or if he 6 talked to my assistant, David. My general recollection is 7 that this group makes collective decisions on who they 8 invite. So I don't know how the process -- what the process 9 was and how my name surfaced, but if I recall correctly, the 10 government was shut down, so this was cancelled. It was 11 around the shut-down period that this was cancelled. 12 Q Mr. Huang -- Ms. Lew, I'm sorry. Can you turn to 13 Bates number 95094. 14 A Okay. These are very blurred, so can you give me a 15 date? 16 Q Yes, it's October 31, 1995. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Do you see the entry at 2:00 p.m. which is written 19 in Chinese? 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q What does that say? 22 A I have no clue. I don't read Chinese, sir. 23 Q You speak Chinese? 24 A I said I speak a form -- a dialect of Cantonese, 25 which has gotten extraordinarily rusty since the death of my 222 1 parents. 2 Q Did you ever -- were you ever able to read Chinese? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: Maybe when I was in third grade or 6 something, but that was whatever my grandfather may have 7 taught me. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q When did you leave mainland China? How old were 10 you? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Objection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: I was born in San Francisco. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Your parents are from mainland China? 16 A Correct. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Given what knowledge you have, 18 does that appear to be calligraphy from China? 19 THE WITNESS: It could be. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Thanks. 21 THE WITNESS: It could also be Japanese, for all I 22 know. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you very much. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q It's some Far Eastern language? 223 1 A Correct. 2 Q When was the first time you met Charlie Trie? 3 A I think I had testified in my previous deposition 4 it was at some event, and I can't tell you what the event 5 was, but it had to be a huge group thing of some sort. 6 Q And where did that take place? 7 A I haven't a clue. I mean I don't recall the year, 8 the time, the date, the place, but I met him at some event. 9 Q Were you introduced to him? 10 A I don't recall. I don't remember if he came to me 11 or we were introduced. I'm not sure. 12 Q Do you remember what city you were in? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Do you remember any discussion that you had with 15 him? 16 A No, other than a handshake. 17 Q Did there come a point in time when you had any 18 contact with Mr. Trie again? 19 A I saw him at some other of these types of Asian- 20 American type events. I did -- he showed up on a China trip 21 and I think it was -- I forgot which city, but he attended 22 some public luncheon. I think it was a lunch held by the 23 Chamber of Commerce. I was startled to see him, I mean 24 because he was sort of out of context. You know how you're 25 used to seeing somebody just in certain settings, and he was 224 1 there in China. 2 Q Do you know how he got there? 3 A No, sir, I do not. 4 Q Do you know whether anyone had invited him? 5 A Like I said, this was a -- I believe this was 6 sponsored by the American Chamber of Commerce so tickets were 7 sold to the lunch. 8 Q Have you ever met a Guangezhou? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and answered prior 10 to deposition. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you remember? 12 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Have you ever met a General Shangdi? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Have you ever met a Madam Liu, daughter of Colonel 17 Liu Chaoying? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q Have you ever met Colonel Liu Chaoying? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Have you ever met anybody from China Resources? 22 A I don't know what China Resources is. 23 Q Have you ever met a Xiong, X-i-o-n-g Guangkai, G-u- 24 a-n-g-h-a-i? 25 A I'm sorry, what's -- 225 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would you spell that again? 2 THE WITNESS: Could you spell that again? 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q X-i-o-n-g, last word, last name, G-u-a-n-g-k-a-i. 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Of the People's Liberation Army? 7 A Not that I recall or remember. 8 Q Why were you surprised that Mr. Trie showed up in 9 China? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and answered. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, she just said she was 12 surprised. She didn't say why? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, she said she was surprised 14 because -- 15 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, she did. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- he was in a very different 17 setting. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Was there another reason why you were surprised? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you have any knowledge as to what Mr. Trie's 22 background was? Was that one of the reasons you were 23 surprised? 24 A No. It's just seeing somebody out of context. 25 Q You had known that he actually was a restaurant 226 1 owner in Little Rock before then, correct? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I do not know that. I recall reading 4 about that in a newspaper article. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Jude Kearney invited 7 him to go on that train trip? To at least appear on the 8 train trip? 9 A No, sir, I do not know. 10 Q Are you aware that Mr. Trie claimed to be a friend 11 of the President, correct, at the time? 12 A At what time? 13 Q The time you saw -- by the time you saw him in 14 China you knew that he had claimed that he was a friend of 15 the President? 16 A Yes. 17 Q He told you that? 18 A Again, I believe I read about it or something. I'm 19 not sure. 20 Q Did others tell you that? 21 A Melinda Yee might have told me. 22 Q What else did Ms. Melinda Yee tell you about 23 Charlie Trie? 24 A That he was from Little Rock. That's about all I 25 can remember. 227 1 Q Did she ever tell you anything about John Huang? 2 A Other than he's from LA, his family was living 3 there, the usual -- 4 Q Nora and Gene Lum? 5 A Nora and Gene Lum? Did Ms. Yee ever -- I'm sorry, 6 what was the question? 7 Q Well, did you ever meet Nora and Gene Lum? 8 A I remember meeting Ms. Laura Lum. 9 Q Where did you meet her? 10 A At the transition office in January of 1993. 11 Q Did you work with her in any capacity? 12 A No. The only reason I remember is that I was only 13 there for a few days but this was a woman who had come from 14 Hawaii and she had brought chocolate macadamia nuts with her. 15 Q Did you ever have any contact with her? 16 A I saw her at a couple of these Asian-American 17 events and sometimes her husband was with her and sometimes 18 he wasn't. 19 Q Did you ever do any fund-raising with her or her 20 husband? 21 A As I mentioned, I have very little involvement in 22 fund-raising, and none with them. 23 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 24 Melinda Yee's mother owned shares of stock in a company 25 called Dynamic Energy, owned by the Lums? 228 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 THE WITNESS: I read about it in the newspaper. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did Melinda Yee ever discuss that company with you? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you ever have contact with anyone by the name 8 of John Tisdale? 9 A I may have met him. I don't know if I've met him. 10 Well, I may have met him but I'm not sure where. He's a 11 lawyer, I remember that. 12 Q Does the name of the law firm Wright Lindsey ring a 13 bell? 14 A Well, I assume that's Mr. Lindsey's firm. 15 Q Right. Well, in what context did you meet Mr. 16 Tisdale. 17 A What I'm saying, I don't -- it may have been at 18 some event. I don't remember. 19 Q Have you ever met Michael Brown, son of Ron Brown? 20 A I met him once when I first joined the Commerce 21 Department and I believe I ran into him again at some other 22 event. 23 Q Do you know what that event was? 24 A I'm trying to remember if it was the funeral. 25 Q Did Michael ever play a role directly or indirectly 229 1 in anything to do with trade missions? 2 A Not that I'm aware of. 3 Q Did you ever meet Tracey Brown, daughter of Ron 4 Brown? 5 A Not that I recall. I may have. Again, if I did it 6 would have been a hallway meeting. 7 Q You produced a book, Exhibit 16, The Life and Times 8 of Ron Brown, which is written by Tracey L. Brown. Did you 9 buy that or did somebody give that to you? 10 A I bought it. 11 Q Did you ever discuss its contents with Tracey 12 Brown? 13 A No. 14 Q Michael Brown? 15 A No. 16 Q Anybody from the Brown family? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know whether documents were shredded, after 19 Ron Brown died, in his office? 20 A I have no such knowledge. I read about it in the 21 paper. 22 Q Do you know whether your office, the general 23 counsel's office, reviewed documents removed from Ron Brown's 24 office after he died? 25 A I have no such knowledge, sir. I had left the 230 1 department by then. 2 Q Have you ever been in Ron Brown's office? 3 A Yes. 4 Q About how many times? 5 A Probably on average once a month or once every six 6 weeks. 7 Q Did you happen to notice when you were in his 8 office if he had documents on his desk? 9 A I don't recall. I recall that it was a very neat 10 desk. 11 Q Do you know whether or not he kept documents in one 12 of his desk drawers? 13 A I have no knowledge about that, sir. 14 Q Do you know whether or not he used any of his 15 office staff in responding to a Grand Jury subpoena issued by 16 an independent counsel named Daniel Pierson? 17 A I do not know, sir. 18 Q Do you know whether or not he had any of those 19 Grand Jury documents in his office at the time he died? 20 A No, sir, I do not know. 21 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 22 documents were taken out of his office and removed from the 23 Commerce Department after he died? 24 A No, sir, I have no such knowledge. 25 Q Have you ever met a Reed Weingarten? 231 1 A Yes. 2 Q Where did you meet him? 3 A He was introduced to me as Secretary Brown's 4 counsel. 5 Q And when did that happen? 6 A Sometime in 1995 I guess. I'm not sure when. 7 Sometime then. 8 Q And what were the circumstances of your being 9 introduced to him? Why would you be introduced to Ron 10 Brown's counsel? 11 A I believe he happened to be in the office. 12 Q In whose office? 13 A The Secretary's, or on the outside of the office, 14 and I happened to be walking in or something. It wasn't as 15 if it was a planned meeting. 16 Q Did you sit in on any meetings with Reed Weingarten 17 and Ron Brown? 18 A No. 19 Q How long was the encounter with Mr. Weingarten? 20 A Probably in passing. 21 Q Do you know why Secretary Brown had retained Mr. 22 Weingarten? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q Do you know whether documents were removed by Reed 25 Weingarten after Secretary Brown died? 232 1 A No, sir, I do not. 2 Q Do you know whether Alma Brown, Secretary Brown's 3 wife, removed documents after he died? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q Whether Michael Brown removed documents? 6 A No, sir, I do not. 7 Q Tracey Brown? 8 A No, sir, I do not. 9 Q Do you know whether Ron Brown had an office in his 10 home? 11 A No, sir, I do not know. 12 Q Did you or anyone else that you know of ever send 13 documents to Ron Brown at home? 14 A I did not send documents to him at home and I do 15 not know if the executive secretary did. I don't know. 16 Q Did you ever send -- do you know whether Ron Brown 17 had a fax machine at home? 18 A I do not know, sir. 19 Q A computer? 20 A I do not know, sir. 21 Q Do you know whether Ron Brown ever had a meeting in 22 his office with Guangezhou and John Huang? 23 A Not that I recall. I'm sorry. I don't know who 24 Guangezhou is. 25 Q Have you ever heard of an individual by the name of 233 1 Robert Atkins that worked at the Commerce Department? 2 A No, not that I remember. 3 Q Are you aware of any instances where there was 4 shredding of documents from the Democratic National Committee 5 or the White House at the Commerce Department? 6 A Only what I had read about in the paper. 7 Q And what did you read -- 8 A And I have no knowledge of that. 9 Q -- what did you read about in the paper? 10 A I believe that The Washington Post suggested there 11 had been shredding. 12 Q Have you ever heard of a person by the name of 13 Nolanda Hill? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Have you ever met Nolanda Hill? 16 A Yes. I testified in my previous deposition I had 17 never met her. 18 Q Have you ever talked to her by phone? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know people who have met her? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who have met her? 23 A Ms. Frederick. 24 Q Who else? 25 A I assume people like Barbara Schmitz and others in 234 1 the Secretary's office. 2 Q Why do you assume that? 3 A Because they may have talked to her. 4 Q Do you know whether or not Ron Brown -- strike 5 that. Do you know whether or not Nolanda Hill advised Ron 6 Brown on matters concerning Commerce Department issues? 7 A No, sir, I do not know. 8 Q What do you know about Nolanda Hill? 9 A That she was a former business partner and I read 10 that she had owned a radio station or something, I'm not sure 11 what. Some sort of business. That she was -- she seemed to 12 be a friend of the Secretary's, I guess is the best way to 13 put it. 14 Q And you're aware that Secretary Brown confided in 15 Ms. Hill from time to time? 16 A I am not aware of that. I have read about it in 17 the paper. 18 Q Do you know whether or not Ms. Hill played a role 19 in Secretary Brown's confirmation hearing preparations? 20 A No, I do not know that. 21 Q Did anyone ever tell you that? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q Do you know whether Laurie Fitz Begatto did? 24 A I do not recall that. I don't know. 25 Q You are aware that Laurie Fitz Begatto was very 235 1 close to Secretary Brown as well, correct? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you have any knowledge of their 4 relationship whatsoever? 5 THE WITNESS: I knew that they were personal 6 friends. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Close personal friends? 9 A I don't know if close personal friends. I just 10 happen to know they happen -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just a moment, please. It is 12 5:00. How much longer will you be? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, I think I'll be done within a 14 half an hour. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Well, why don't we give the 16 reporter a break for five minutes? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 18 (A brief recess was taken.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You testified as to the initial encounter with Mr. 21 Trie. Did you see him after that, other than on the train 22 trip to China? 23 A As I mentioned, I probably ran into him at various 24 Asian-American events, or several, but, as I mentioned, these 25 were very much in passing. 236 1 Q Did you see him at the Commerce Department ever? 2 A Not that I recall. 3 Q Do you know whether he sat on any kind of trade 4 advisory committee or commission? 5 A I believe toward the end of my tenure his name came 6 through for something and I ended up referring it to Ms. 7 Fredericks' office for handling. I don't know -- I don't 8 remember what it was for but I just remember that. 9 Q Do you know a Pauline Kanchanalak? 10 A I have met her, again, at these various Asian 11 events. 12 Q Did you ever see her at the Commerce Department? 13 A That one I'm not sure. I don't recall. I don't 14 know. She may have been there but I don't recall. 15 Q Did you or your office ever do any business with 16 her, anything related to her business endeavors? 17 A I recall that at one time -- somewhere -- one time 18 she called my office to ask for some assistance. I can't 19 remember whether it was on a trip or an advocacy issue and I 20 believe I asked my assistant -- this I'm not clear -- either 21 asked my assistant to call her back or I may have called her 22 back and said, "We don't do this stuff. You have to go talk 23 to advocacy or business liaison or something else." I've not 24 talked to her since then or had any contact with her since 25 then. 237 1 Q Have you ever met a Maria Hsia, H-s-i-a? 2 A To the best of my knowledge, no. 3 Q Have you ever had any contact with her? 4 A I believe I have never met her. 5 Q Do you know who she is? 6 A I have read about who she is. 7 Q Did your office ever have contact with the Office 8 of the Vice President, Al Gore? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Under what circumstances? 11 A I served as the agency representative on the 12 Regulatory Reform Working Group, which he Chairs. 13 Q Did you ever discuss anything about trade missions 14 with Mr. Gore or his office? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Did Mr. Gore or his office ever recommend trade 17 mission participants? 18 A Not that I'm aware of. I mean I certainly don't 19 have that knowledge. 20 Q Did you have any contact with the fund-raiser or 21 donor maintenance event or whatever you want to call it at 22 the Buddhist Temple in Hacienda Heights, California? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q Did you ever see Johnny Chung at the Department of 25 Commerce? 238 1 A As I mentioned, I don't know who he is. 2 Q Have you ever seen pictures of him? 3 A In a recent time I've seen pictures of him, yes. 4 Q Have you ever been deposed with regard to the issue 5 of campaign finance except in this case? 6 A No. 7 Q Have you ever been called before a Grand Jury? 8 A No. 9 Q Are you aware of any ongoing Commerce Department 10 investigations of what happened on the trade missions -- 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q -- as of today? 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So moved. 15 THE WITNESS: Except for that news article which I 16 produced, which talks about a new search. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q But you haven't had any contact with anyone from 19 Commerce, the Inspector General, since that first meeting you 20 discussed in your initial deposition? 21 MR. GAGNER: Would you repeat that, please? 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm not sure -- 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q You haven't had any subsequent contact with anyone 25 from the Commerce Department other than what you testified to 239 1 the first time you were deposed? 2 A Correct. 3 Q I'm getting the impression -- I've gotten the 4 impression from your first deposition and this continued 5 deposition that you really don't want to have anything to do 6 with John Huang, is that correct? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't know what that means. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q I'm getting the -- let me see if I can phrase it in 11 a different way. That you want to be as far away from John 12 Huang as possible in terms of perception, public perception? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: I have had -- my relationship with 16 Mr. Huang was as I described it. I considered him neither a 17 friend nor an enemy. I certainly was not and have never been 18 a confidant of Mr. Huang. 19 Did we work at the department at the same time in 20 terms of overlapping tenure for part of that time? Yes. Did 21 we work together on the same projects? No. Did I see him 22 socially? No, except for, like I said -- I just mentioned, 23 the other things that I talked about. But he's just not 24 someone that I would, you know, I'd choose as a close, 25 personal friend. 240 1 Q You don't want there to be any public perception 2 that you were close in any way with him, do you? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: The truth, Mr. Klayman, is that we 6 were neither close nor were we confidants. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You yourself, Ginger Lew, have concerns about what 9 John Huang may have done at the Commerce Department, correct? 10 A I'm not sure how to answer that question, because I 11 don't know what he did or didn't do. 12 Q Based upon everything that you know and that you've 13 read, you have concerns about what John Huang's activities 14 were at the Commerce Department -- 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q -- isn't that correct? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: I have concerns that he may have 20 engaged in inappropriate or illegal activities, but that is 21 just based upon what I have read in the paper. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Have you ever offered your assistance to any 24 federal authorities in terms of ongoing investigations to 25 tell them what you know about John Huang and Department of 241 1 Commerce trade missions and any other matters? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Say your question again at this 4 time. Your voice dropped at the end. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you ever offered your assistance to any 8 government authorities investigating the whole issue of John 9 Huang and trade missions to tell them what you know? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: I have never offered, nor have I been 13 asked. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you take any responsibility for John Huang's 16 activities at the Department of Commerce? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you play any role or did anyone in your office 22 in granting him a security clearance? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q Including anyone in your office? 25 A To the best of my knowledge no one in my office 242 1 played a role in granting him a security clearance. 2 Q Do you know who John Huang currently works for, if 3 anyone? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: No. As I have testified earlier, I 7 have not had any contact with him since whatever time it was 8 in 1996. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you know whether he's ever worked for any 11 government authority other than the Commerce Department? 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you know? 14 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know whether he ever worked for any 17 intelligence agency, domestic or foreign? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I do not know. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Has anyone ever told you that they think John Huang 23 is an intelligence agent? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 243 1 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Do you know if John Huang is currently in contact 4 with anyone in the Asian Pacific American community? 5 A Not that I'm aware of, sir. 6 Q Do you have any information as to why federal 7 authorities have never sought to question John Huang under 8 oath? 9 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, what would be the basis 13 for that? 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why would she -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: If she knows? 16 MS. BRASWELL: How is it relevant? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And also why is it relevant? But 18 I don't understand why -- she's not affiliated with a federal 19 enforcement agency, so how could she -- sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever met a Ng Lap Seng? 22 A Not that I'm aware of, no. 23 Q A Mr. Wu from Macao? 24 A No. 25 Q Do you know whether he appeared on the trade 244 1 mission to China in the fall of '94? 2 A I'm sorry. Whether he appeared? 3 Q Yes. 4 A No, I'm not aware -- I don't know what he looks 5 like, so, I mean, I don't know if he was there or not there. 6 Q Ms. Lew, I also received the impression in the two 7 sessions that we've had the opportunity to take your 8 deposition that you weren't terribly engaged as general 9 counsel at the Commerce Department, is that correct? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 MR. GAGNER: Objection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But you didn't really do much? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Your Honor, I don't mean that 18 facetiously. 19 MS. BRASWELL: It doesn't matter how you meant it. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think it has anything to 21 do with what -- 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Where did you spend most of your time -- 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 25 245 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q -- while you were at the Commerce Department? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further questions. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you very much. 6 (Whereupon, at 5:21 p.m., the deposition was 7 concluded.) 8 * * * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25