IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. 95-0113 : (RCL) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Washington, D.C. Wednesday, April 21, 1999 Continued deposition of GINGER LEW a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, a Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, Third Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C., commencing at 10:11 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA BRASWELL, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorney 555 Fourth Street, N.W., 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 ELISE B. PACKARD, ESQ. Office of the General Counsel U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street & Constitution Ave., N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Witness: PHILIP A. GAGNER, ESQ. Shaughnessy, Volzer & Gagner, P.C. 1155 15th Street, N.W. Suite 502 Washington, D.C. 20005 Also Present: Thomas J. Fitton, President Jason Aldrich Judicial Watch, Inc. Sylvanus Holley, videographer 3 C O N T E N T S PAGE EXAMINATION BY: Counsel for the Plaintiff 6 LEW DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 11 - Re-notice of Deposition Duces Tecum 8 12 - Photocopy of three luggage tags 10 13 - N.Y. Times article, "After Judges Review, Commerce Secretary Widens Inquiry," 1/3/99 10 14 - Investors Business Daily article, "An Inside Job at Commerce?" 6/19/98 11 15 - Asian Week Magazine article, "Spy Hysteria" by Ling-Chi Wang, 3/25/99 11 16 - Book, The Life and Times of Ron Brown, by Tracey L. Brown 11 17 - Photocopy of photograph of sendoff session 26 18 - Photocopy of photograph of sendoff session 32 19 - Brochure, DNC Managing Trustee Events and Membership Requirements 48 20 - Memo from Martha Phipps to Ann Cahill, 5/5/94, re: "White House Activities" 53 21 - Article October 1998, "Barbarians at the Fund" 68 22 - Minority donor list 74 23 - Photograph 91 24 - Photograph 93 25 - 4/4/96 Article, "U.S. Officials Don't Want to Discuss Brown Successor," Reuter Business Report 97 26 - Photograph 102 4 CONTENTS (con'd): 27 - Briefing materials 107 28 - Delegation list 114 29 - 5/25/98 Washington Post article, "Big Donor Calls Favorable Treatment a Coincidence" 131 30 - 7/16/93 Asian Week article 142 31 - Photograph 157 32 - 4/23/96 Zia letter to Huang 161 33 - Document: Democratic National Committee, Office of Asian Public Affairs 164 34 - Notes by Mr. Huang, "Asian Event" 171 35 - N.Y. Times article, "Democrats Hope to Raise 7 Million from Asians in U.S." 176 36 - Article, "Democrats Eye the Disgruntled APA Voter," by Sam Chu Lin, 11/4/94 189 37 - Handwritten document from Sally Painter to Rob Saidler, 1/26/94 201 38 - Document 204 39 - Memo to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter, 8/6/93 205 40 - Letter from Terry McAuliffe to Melissa Moss, 7/25/94 208 41 - Document, Minority Exporters, to Tracey Rancifer, 3/30/94 209 42 - Document 210 43 - Document 211 44 - Document 211 45 - John Huang's 1994 Desk Diary 213 46 - John Huang's 1995 Calendar Book 218 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is the video 3 deposition, the continuing deposition of Ginger Lew, taken by 4 the counsel for the plaintiff in the matter of Judicial 5 Watch, Inc., v. U.S. Department of Commerce, in the U.S. 6 District Court for the District of Columbia, Case Number 95- 7 0133, held in the chambers of Judge John Facciola at the U.S. 8 District Court of the District of Columbia, on this date, 9 April 21, 1999, and at the time indicated on the video 10 screen, which is 10:11 a.m. 11 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm the videographer. 12 The court reporter today is Rita Hemphill from the firm of 13 Diversified Reporting. 14 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, general counsel and 16 chairman of Judicial Watch. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. GAGNER: Philip Gagner, and I'm counsel for 19 Ginger Lew. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the U.S. 21 Attorney's Office, and I'm counsel for the Department of 22 Commerce. 23 MS. PACKARD: Elise Packard, Office of the General 24 Counsel, Department of Commerce. 25 VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter please swear 6 1 in the witness? 2 Whereupon, 3 GINGER LEW 4 was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 5 was examined and testified as follows: 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFF 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Ms. Lew, you recollect being first deposed on March 9 12, 1997, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q This is a continuing deposition. I ask you, with 12 regard to that deposition on March 12, 1997 -- 13 A Excuse me. Am I supposed to wear this? 14 VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes. The other side will be better. 15 Just flip it around. Yes. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Shall we start over again? Did you 17 get the response, or do we need to start over again, Mr. 18 Holley? 19 VIDEOGRAPHER: You need to ask her the question 20 again. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Ms. Lew, this is a continuing deposition to a 24 deposition of March 12, 1997. Do you remember being deposed 25 in this case on that date, March 12, 1997? 7 1 A Yes. 2 Q During that deposition, did you testify fully, 3 accurately, and completely? 4 A To the best of my knowledge, yes. 5 Q Is there anything about the testimony that you gave 6 at that time which is not accurate or complete? 7 A Based upon my recollection, which is now almost two 8 years old, I believe it was accurate. 9 Q Was it complete? 10 A I believe so. 11 Q Did you have an opportunity to review the 12 transcript of that deposition on March 12, 1997 before your 13 reconvened deposition here today? 14 A Yes. 15 Q When did you review that transcript? 16 A Yesterday. 17 Q Did you read the whole transcript? 18 A I believe I read most of it. I can't say I read 19 all of it. 20 Q Did you have an opportunity to meet with counsel to 21 prepare for this deposition? 22 A Yes. 23 Q When did you meet? 24 A We met on Monday of this week, and I believe we met 25 sometime in early April. 8 1 Q What was the length of those two meetings combined, 2 just roughly speaking? 3 A Two to three hours. 4 Q Which counsel were present at those meetings? 5 A Marina Braswell, Elise Packard was at the meeting 6 on Monday, along with my counsel, and then I met with my 7 counsel on the previous day. 8 Q Was Judith Means at any of these meetings? 9 A No. 10 Q In reviewing the transcript and reviewing your 11 prior testimony and discussing it with counsel, is there 12 anything you'd like to correct at this time? 13 A There were various spelling errors, et cetera, but 14 as I mentioned, with respect to what I did review, I believe 15 it was accurate. 16 Q Do you have any reason to believe that in that 17 which you claim not to have reviewed there's any 18 inaccuracies? 19 A I don't know. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I will ask the 21 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 11. This is the re-notice 22 of deposition requiring your attendance here today. 23 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 11 was 24 marked for identification.) 25 9 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you receive this document? 3 A Yes. 4 Q When did you receive it? 5 A I'm sorry, I don't recall the specific date, but I 6 did receive it. 7 Q Within the last few weeks, last few months, roughly 8 speaking? 9 A Guesstimating only, maybe within the last month. 10 I'm not sure. 11 Q Did you have an opportunity to review the document 12 thoroughly when you received it, or thereafter? 13 A Yes. 14 Q The notice of deposition requires the production of 15 certain documents at Appendix A. Are you producing any 16 documents today in response to that document request? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is everything you're producing newspaper articles? 19 A For the most part, yes. 20 Q What do you mean by "for the most part?" There are 21 some book articles? 22 A Would you like me to describe them for the record? 23 Q Yes. 24 A Okay. There are luggage tags relating to the trip 25 to China. 10 1 Q Can I see them? 2 A Yes. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the photocopy of these 4 luggage tags be made Exhibit 12. 5 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 12 was 6 marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You produced a photocopy of these luggage tags, 9 correct? 10 A Correct. 11 Q This was the trade mission to China for August 27 12 to September 3, 1994? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And you went on that trade mission, correct? 15 A Correct. Various newspaper articles. Do you want 16 me to describe each one? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Perhaps I can describe them. It 18 might be quicker. 19 I'll ask that be marked as Exhibit 13 an article 20 that appeared in the New York Times, Sunday, January 3, 1999, 21 with the title, "After Judges Review, Commerce Secretary 22 Widens Inquiry into Mishandling of Papers." 23 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 13 was 24 marked for identification.) 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that be marked as Exhibit 14 11 1 a newspaper article, a copy of which is provided by counsel 2 for Ms. Lew, in the Investors Business Daily, headlined "An 3 Inside Job At Commerce, Satellite Secrets Left Department 4 with Official," of -- I believe the article is of June 18, 5 1998, two pages. 6 THE WITNESS: June 18th or June 19th? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: June 19th. 8 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 14 was 9 marked for identification.) 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Another article in Asian Week 11 Magazine of March 25, 1999, entitled "Spy Hysteria" by Ling- 12 Chi Wang, L-i-n-g - C-h-i, last name W-a-n-g. I'll ask that 13 that be marked Exhibit 15. That's an original. 14 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 15 was 15 marked for identification.) 16 THE WITNESS: And then a copy of The Life and Times 17 of Ron Brown, written by his daughter, in which the trade 18 missions are mentioned. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: If you like, we can mark this, and I 20 will buy you another copy. I actually wanted to buy it 21 myself. 22 We'll get you a copy tomorrow. I'll send it to 23 your counsel. Thank you. 24 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 16 was 25 marked for identification.) 12 1 MR. GAGNER: Could you run through those again, 2 from 12 to 16, please? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 12 is the re-notice of the 4 deposition duces tecum. 5 MR. GAGNER: Isn't that 11? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me. You're right. That's 11. 7 12 are the luggage tags to the China trade mission. 13 is 8 the New York Times article of Sunday, January 3, 1999. 14 is 9 the Investors Business Daily Article of June 19, 1998. 15 is 10 the Asian Week March 25, 1999 edition, entitled "Spy 11 Hysteria." And 16 is the book, Life and Times of Ron Brown. 12 MR. GAGNER: Thank you. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Ms. Lew, did you conduct a search for the documents 15 that were requested in your re-notice of deposition? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Where did you search? 18 A My entire house and my office. 19 Q When you left the Department of Commerce, did you 20 take any documents with you? 21 A I took certain publications that were available 22 from the General Printing Office. I took my personal 23 calendar, and I took travel vouchers, I believe. 24 Q Were there any pages of your personal calendars 25 that related to the trade missions that are the subject of 13 1 this case? 2 A The working draft calendar I believe referenced 3 just the fact that I would be out of the office. 4 Q You haven't produced those pages, have you? 5 A I believe I produced them at the last deposition. 6 Q Was there any reference in those personal calendars 7 to John Huang? 8 A Not that I recall. 9 Q There may have been? 10 A Again, recalling things that were penciled in or 11 drafted in five and four years ago is something difficult to 12 remember, but since he and I did not work together and I do 13 not recall having meetings with him, it is highly unlikely 14 that he would be referenced in there. 15 Q What do you mean by you didn't work together? 16 A As I testified in my previous deposition, we did 17 not have any reason to attend meetings together, to exchange 18 papers, to et cetera. We did not -- our paths did not cross, 19 as I explained in my previous deposition. 20 Legal counsel for the Office of International Trade 21 was provided by the chief counsel for international trade and 22 her staff of attorneys, and generally speaking, I did not 23 interact with employees that were below assistant secretary. 24 Q This was your personal calendar, correct? 25 A Yes. 14 1 Q So it contained entries that weren't necessarily 2 related to the Commerce Department? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you interact in any way with John Huang outside 5 of the Commerce Department from the time you joined the 6 Commerce Department to the present? 7 A To today? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Okay. 10 Q And just refresh our recollection when you first 11 began at the Commerce Department. 12 A I began with the Commerce Department as a 13 consultant, sometime in 19 -- the summer of 1993, and then I 14 was confirmed as the general counsel in March of 1994. 15 As I testified earlier, I first met Mr. Huang after 16 he joined the Commerce Department. I can't recall where I 17 heard, but I had heard that he was joining the department and 18 I made a call to him and asked if he wanted to meet and to 19 get together for a drink, which we did do. 20 Q Why did you want to meet Mr. Huang? 21 A As I testified before, there aren't that many 22 Asian-Americans appointees, or weren't that many Asian- 23 American appointees. He was totally new to government, and 24 it was just a sort of a courtesy call, meet and greet type of 25 thing. 15 1 Q How did you learn about John Huang such that you 2 were able to call him? 3 A I'm not sure if I heard about it -- I heard about 4 it somewhere. I mean, I can't tell you where, whether it was 5 at an ITA meeting, perhaps. I don't recall. 6 Q Did you know what his background was at the time? 7 A I knew he had some sort of financial background. 8 Q Did you know anything more than that? 9 A He was from L.A. 10 Q Anything more than that? 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q Were there other Asian-American appointees at the 13 Commerce Department where you did the same thing, you called 14 them up and went to lunch with them? 15 A I believe I said that I went -- had drinks 16 with Mr. -- 17 Q Or drinks. Drinks, lunch, anything. 18 A A social -- 19 Q Outside of the department. 20 A I may have done that with Mr. -- I can't remember 21 his name now. I can't remember the gentleman's -- I think 22 it's T.S. Chung. I may have done that with him. I may have 23 done it with a couple of others. I'm not sure. 24 Q How did you learn of Mr. Chung such that you 25 invited him to have a meeting or whatever? 16 1 A I believe in his case, he called my office. 2 Q He called your office? 3 A I believe so. I don't recall. 4 Q Did you know what his background was before he 5 called your office? 6 A I believe he -- he was a lawyer from L.A. 7 Q Did you learn what his background was after you met 8 with him the first time? 9 A He may have told me, but I don't recall. 10 Q Did you have an opportunity to get together with 11 Mr. Huang in any way outside of the Department of Commerce, 12 after that first drink meeting? 13 A Not that I recall, no. And excuse me. You asked 14 me the question about contact with him from that point to the 15 present? 16 Q Right. 17 A The original question. I don't think I finished 18 answering that question. 19 Q Okay. 20 A So if I could go back to answer that question? 21 Q Sure. 22 A I saw him in the hallways, you know, around the 23 department, but that was really more, you know, "Hello, how 24 are you," type things. 25 I believe he once contacted my office and asked if 17 1 I would be a luncheon speaker at some Asian-American 2 government employees session. I don't know if I actually 3 talked to him or if he left a message. 4 Then my next recollection is his call to me, and I 5 believe I testified to this last time, when he either was 6 departing or had departed -- I can't remember which now 7 -- that he was leaving the department. 8 And I believe the next contact I had with him, as I 9 testified previously, was a phone message from him when I was 10 at SBA. I was on travel. He called my office, relayed the 11 message. I called him back. I got a voice mail, but we 12 never talked. I just said I was returning his call. 13 Then I believe I also testified that I saw him at 14 some gathering and said hello to him. That was in May of 15 '96, I believe. 16 And then, finally, a call one time that he left a 17 message asking for the names of some lawyers, and I believe I 18 testified to that as well, in my previous deposition. I 19 believe I gave him -- I called him back and left a voice mail 20 message with a couple of names, but I do not recall talking 21 to him. So that was probably in 1996, as well, and I have 22 not spoken to him since then. 23 Q Was that in and around October of 1996 that you 24 gave him or left him the names of those two lawyers? 25 A I can't recall. I could say it was fall, but I 18 1 don't know when. 2 Q Was it around the time that Judicial Watch was 3 seeking to take his deposition testimony? 4 A I can't recall. As I mentioned, I know it was 5 sometime in the fall, maybe late summer. 6 Q Did he call you and leave a message asking for 7 names of lawyers? 8 A Correct, on my message machine. 9 Q At home? 10 A I don't know if it was at home or the office. I 11 can't remember. It must have been at home, because I don't 12 have -- I did not have voice mail at the office. 13 Q Did he tell you why he needed lawyers in that 14 message? 15 A No, he did not. 16 Q Did you ever speak with him and ask him why he 17 needed lawyers? 18 A I don't recall speaking to him about that, no. 19 Q Do you recall speaking to him about anything else 20 in that period? 21 A No. 22 Q I take it that's the full extent of your contact 23 with Mr. Huang from the point you started at Commerce to the 24 present? 25 A Correct. 19 1 Q And you haven't had any contact with Mr. Huang, 2 direct or indirect, outside of the Commerce Department during 3 that period? 4 A Correct. 5 Q You haven't been working on any matters that Mr. 6 Huang was also working on outside of the Department of 7 Commerce from the point you began at the Commerce Department 8 to the present? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, vague. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could you rephrase that, Mr. 11 Klayman? I didn't understand it myself. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q I take it that you didn't work on anything with Mr. 15 Huang, either in terms of him personally or with regard to 16 any groups or organizations or business entities that he was 17 working with, from the point you started with the Department 18 to the present? 19 A I -- I'm not sure if I still understand the 20 question. 21 Q Okay, let me see if I can rephrase it. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Your testimony was you didn't work on anything with 24 Mr. Huang at the Commerce Department, correct? 25 A Correct. 20 1 Q Outside of the Commerce Department, was there 2 anything that you were working on that Mr. Huang was also 3 working on, from the period you began at the Commerce 4 Department to the present? 5 A At one time, he served, or there was a committee 6 called the -- I can't remember the name of it now. It was 7 some sort of group that was convened by Doris Matsui who was 8 in the Office of Public Liaison. 9 We met a couple of times, or at least I attended 10 only a couple of meetings, and supposedly he was part of this 11 group, but he was never at the meetings that I was at, so I 12 don't know if he actually ever worked on this. 13 Q Was this group highly publicized at the time? 14 A I'm not sure I understand the term "highly 15 publicized." 16 Q Was it made known publicly that such a group 17 existed? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, outside the scope. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What does this have to do with the 20 subject? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Contact with Mr. Huang. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. If you can, answer it. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it was widely 24 publicized or publicly known. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 1 Q When you testified as to the Office of Public 2 Liaison, you are referring to the Office of Public Liaison in 3 the White House? 4 A Correct. 5 Q The office that at that time was run by Alexis 6 Herman, correct? 7 A I don't know if she was still there. I don't know 8 -- to answer the question, I mean, I don't know the 9 information. 10 Q You are aware that the Office of Public Liaison, at 11 a minimum, arranged for briefing sessions at the White House 12 for participants on trade missions, correct? 13 A Do I have that personal knowledge? 14 Q Well, just tell me what -- 15 A I do not have that personal knowledge, no. 16 Q Are you answering only with regard to personal 17 knowledge? 18 A I'm answering with respect to what I know. 19 Q Now, do you know whether, from other sources, other 20 than your having witnessed it yourself, that the Office of 21 Public Liaison arranged briefing sessions at the White House 22 for trade mission participants? 23 A They may have, but I don't -- I don't recall them. 24 Q Did you ever have discussions with Alexis Herman 25 about trade missions? 22 1 A Not that I recall. 2 Q I don't understand what you mean, not that you 3 recall. 4 A Again, you're asking me to recall conversations 5 that are almost five years old, and I don't recall speaking 6 to her about trade missions at all. 7 Q Did you ever have any such discussions about trade 8 missions with Harold Ickes at the White House? 9 A No. 10 Q With Hillary Clinton? 11 A No. 12 Q With President Clinton? 13 A No. 14 Q With Leon Panetta? 15 A No. 16 Q John Podesta? 17 A No. 18 Q Amy Sistook? 19 A I don't know who she is. 20 Q She was an assistant for Alexis Herman. 21 A Oh. No. I mean, I can say, that I don't know who 22 she is. 23 Q Did you ever attend briefing session for trade 24 missions at the White House? 25 A No. 23 1 Q Do you know of others who did? 2 A If anyone did, the Secretary may have, but that 3 -- that would be my natural assumption. 4 Q Did you or anyone else at the Commerce Department 5 prepare briefing books for participants on trade missions? 6 A I did not. 7 Q Do you know of those who did? 8 A People in the Office of International Trade 9 Administration did, Business Liaison. Again, I'm trying to 10 remember the names of some of these offices. Advocacy. I 11 know certainly my Office of Chief Counsel for International 12 Affairs prepared my materials for my portion of the trip. 13 Q Who else participated in preparing briefing 14 materials? 15 A It would really cut across the entire department, 16 because depending upon the scope and issues that were being 17 covered in a particular trade mission, if there was an 18 environmental issue, perhaps NOAA was involved. 19 If it was whether service issues, again -- I 20 remember there was some discussion about that on one of the 21 trade mission -- the Weather Service was involved with that, 22 as well. 23 If there was intellectual property issues, then 24 probably Ms. Lewis' office was involved. 25 There could have been general policy questions. 24 1 So it just depended upon whatever was being covered 2 on the trade mission. 3 Q Did you ever attend meetings at the White House 4 with the President? 5 A Ever? 6 Q Yeah. 7 A As to a specific time, or ever? 8 Q During the time you were at the Commerce 9 Department. 10 A I believe I attended a session where he greeted the 11 members of the business delegation, or it was called a 12 sendoff, I guess it was, the members of the delegation before 13 they left for China. We literally went there, I think the 14 business delegation. He said a few words. They shook hands. 15 We got on the bus and left for Andrews Air Force Base. 16 Q That was a briefing session, was it not? 17 A No. It was just a "Wonderful, great to see you and 18 meet you." It was as -- it was termed and characterized as a 19 sendoff. There was no substance. I don't recall any 20 substance. It was more, as I say, just a greeting. 21 Q The President attended that sendoff, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Vice President Gore attended that sendoff, correct? 24 A I don't recall him being there. 25 Q Who from the White House attended the sendoff? 25 1 A My recollection is it was the President. 2 Q What did he say? 3 A I have no remembrance of recollection of what he 4 said. I think it was very general. My recollection of it 5 was it was, like I say, it was a very general, "It's 6 wonderful you're doing this, great that you're going," type 7 of thing, but that's my recollection. 8 Q John Huang was there? 9 A Not that I recall. I believe I was the only Asian- 10 American appointee there. 11 Q Was Charlie Trie there? You know Charlie Trie, 12 don't you? 13 A I have met Mr. Trie. I do not know Mr. Trie. 14 Q Was he at that meeting? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know Johnny Chung? 17 A I have testified previously that I do not know Mr. 18 Chung. 19 Q Was T.S. Chung there? 20 A I think I just previously said that I was the only 21 Asian-American appointee. 22 Q Going back to your earlier questions, did you ever 23 meet, when you started at the Commerce Department, with a 24 Hoyt Zia? 25 A He was hired after I was at the Commerce 26 1 Department, yes. 2 Q Did you take him to drinks, too? 3 A We may have had a lunch or we may have had coffee. 4 I can't recall. 5 Q Did you have more than one meeting with him? 6 A I met with him on a regular basis as the chief 7 counsel for BXA. I met with all the chief counsels on a 8 regular basis, and he was one of the chief counsels. 9 Q BXA is Bureau of Export Administration? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you meet with him socially? 12 A I've never been to his house. I've never had 13 dinner with he and his wife. I've never -- we have met at 14 gatherings, again, such as Asian-American Heritage Month type 15 things, the Congressional Asian Pacific dinner, at the -- he 16 attended the Asian-American Bar sessions, which I also 17 attended, so I saw him there. 18 Q At that sendoff session with the President, did you 19 talk to the President, one-on-one, or in his presence? 20 A No. No. Everybody was clustered around him. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 22 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. This is a photocopy of 23 a photograph. 24 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 17 was 25 marked for identification.) 27 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q If you would like to see the original of that 3 photograph -- 4 A Thank you. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask Mr. Holley to take a picture 6 of it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Is that a photograph depicting that sendoff 9 session? 10 A Yes. 11 Q This is the sendoff session that you attended, 12 correct? 13 A Correct. Do you want this back? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. You can keep it right there 15 with all the other exhibits. I'll then show you what I'll 16 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 18. 17 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object, 18 unless Mr. Klayman can tie this up to Department of Commerce 19 documents. We're looking at a bunch of pictures. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to identify some people, Your 21 Honor. This is discovery that may lead to discovery. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please proceed. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Looking at Exhibit 17 -- I'll let you see the 25 original -- can you identify, in clockwise fashion, the 28 1 people sitting around that table, after the President? We 2 obviously know him. 3 A I'm not sure how I would identify for the purposes 4 of the record. Do I just point them on the -- 5 Q Yeah, just their names. 6 MS. BRASWELL: I think you're going to need to say, 7 looking at the President, "The first person to his right" -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 10 MS. BRASWELL: -- "the second." 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Otherwise, the record will be 14 totally unclear. 15 THE WITNESS: That's what I was asking. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Right. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. The first person to his 18 left -- okay? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Yeah. 20 THE WITNESS: I do not know who that is. The 21 second person to his left is Secretary Brown. The third 22 person is -- 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q You mean to the President's right? 25 MS. BRASWELL: No, to the President's left. 29 1 THE WITNESS: The President's left. It would be to 2 his right as we look at the picture, but it is to the 3 President's left. This is to the President's left. 4 The second person to his left -- are we clear? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Yeah. 6 THE WITNESS: -- is Ron Brown. The third person 7 to his left is, I think, Bernie Schwartz; I'm not sure. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Of Loral? 10 A I believe so. I'm not sure, but I believe so. 11 Q Okay. Who is sitting behind Mr. Schwartz? 12 A A staffer, and I cannot remember his name. I don't 13 know who that is. And to -- the fourth person to the 14 President's left, I cannot tell who that is. 15 Now, the next person over, that you can see a 16 portion of his head at the top here, this -- 17 MS. BRASWELL: At the bottom right corner of the 18 picture? 19 THE WITNESS: At the bottom right corner of this 20 picture -- 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Right. 23 A -- I'm going to make a guess, but it looks like 24 Mack McLarty, but I'm not sure. I do not -- so now -- this 25 is getting a little difficult. But this individual, whose 30 1 head -- I don't know who that is. 2 MS. BRASWELL: That would be the person to the left 3 of -- 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q If you can show that to the camera and then point 6 at it, that would be helpful. 7 A Okay. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 9 MS. BRASWELL: But we need, for the written record, 10 you've just pointed to the person who is to the left of the 11 individual you think is Mack McLarty; is that correct? 12 THE WITNESS: I believe that's -- 13 MS. BRASWELL: Is that who you're now trying to 14 describe? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: And to that person's left, I can't 18 tell you who that is. I don't know. And to that person's 19 left -- 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q The person you just identified was the bald-headed 22 guy? 23 A The bald-headed individual. 24 Q Okay. 25 A To his left, a gentleman that's wearing glasses, I 31 1 don't know who that is. And the gentleman to his left, who 2 is wearing a grey suit, I do not know who he is. 3 The next person, I can't tell who that is, next to 4 the person in the grey. And the next person to him, with the 5 bald hair -- head, I can't see his face, so I can't tell. 6 And there appears to be a person next to the bald- 7 headed gentleman, but I -- I'm not sure if that's true. The 8 person next -- there appears to be another person next to the 9 -- I'm sorry. I'm pointing. There seems to be a little 10 small head here, but I can't tell if there is one, actually. 11 There is definitely a head there, but I can't tell 12 who it is. There is a picture of an individual here, and -- 13 MS. BRASWELL: You're in the left corner of the 14 picture, when the mantle is right near his head? 15 THE WITNESS: Right next to the mantle, yes. And I 16 cannot tell who that is. There appears to be somebody next 17 to him, but I can only see a fraction of his head. There 18 appears to be a person next to him, right underneath the 19 mantle. I -- 20 MS. BRASWELL: Is he wearing glasses? 21 THE WITNESS: He's wearing glasses. He's in 22 between the vase and the clock. I cannot tell who that is. 23 The person right directly underneath the clock is, I believe, 24 Mr. Fisher from Kodak. 25 There's a gentleman next to his left. I do not 32 1 know who he is. The gentleman next to him, I don't recall 2 his name. There appears to be somebody sitting behind the 3 gentleman in the blue suit and a blue shirt, and I can't tell 4 who that is, nor do I know who the person is with the blue 5 shirt and dark-colored suit. 6 MS. BRASWELL: And is he wearing glasses? Can you 7 tell? 8 THE WITNESS: He may be, but I can't tell. 9 MS. BRASWELL: Are we talking about the individual 10 whose head appears under the statue? Are we talking about 11 this person right here? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. The statue is -- appears to 14 be behind him. 15 THE WITNESS: There is a woman, African American 16 woman, and i do not know who she is. I remember her 17 business, but I don't remember her name. Her business, she 18 made dolls or something. 19 There's a gentleman next to her, and I do not know 20 who that is. And there's a gentleman to the President's 21 immediate right, and I do not know who that is. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you what I'll ask the 23 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 18. 24 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 18 was 25 marked for identification.) 33 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q This is another photograph at that briefing 3 session, is it not, Ms. Lew? 4 A The send-away session. 5 Q Send-away session. 6 A I'm sorry. Yes. 7 Q Have you ever reviewed the testimony of James 8 Hackney in this case? 9 A No. 10 Q Mr. Hackney referred to these sessions as briefing 11 sessions. Do you take issue with that? 12 A I can only know -- I can only relate to what I knew 13 them to be, which were a sendoff session. 14 Q During this particular session, did the President 15 discuss financial support for the Democratic Party? 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q Did he make reference to "Thank you for your 18 support," something to that effect? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q You just don't remember? 21 A I don't remember, no. 22 Q Did he thank the people for making contributions to 23 the Democratic Party? 24 A I would have remembered if he said something like 25 that, and I do not recall him saying that. 34 1 Q Why would you have remembered that? 2 A That would have seemed totally inappropriate. 3 Q Why is that? 4 A This was a send-away session on a mission to -- I 5 wouldn't understand the linkage to contributions. 6 Q Do you consider it would have been inappropriate if 7 he said "Thank you for your support"? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. That's a vague 9 statement. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I just want to get the state of mind, 11 Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, did the President discuss, 13 at that session, anything having to do with the fact that any 14 of the people in the room may have made contributions, either 15 personally or with the businesses with which they are 16 associated, to either his campaign or the Democratic National 17 Committee? 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: The other question is, Your Honor, if 20 he just said "Thank you for your support," without making 21 reference to particular contributions? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you remember him saying those 23 words, "Thank you for your support?" 24 THE WITNESS: He may have, but I don't recall. I 25 mean, he's -- I think he says that in just about every 35 1 public, televised statement I've ever seen him make. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Would you have considered that inappropriate, if he 4 had said "Thank you for your support"? 5 A No. 6 Q Why is that? 7 A For supporting America for promoting American 8 businesses, "Thank you for your support," that would be very 9 appropriate. 10 Q One form of support, based on your experience, is 11 financial, is it not? 12 A What experience are you referring to, sir? 13 Q In the political arena. 14 A Since I have very little experience in the 15 financial arena, financial area of the political arena, I 16 find that a difficult question to respond to, because I'm not 17 sure -- support, in my mind, applies equally to people who 18 volunteer, stuff envelopes and lick stamps. It applies to 19 people who do get out the vote. 20 Q Vice President Gore was at that meeting, correct? 21 A According to this picture. 22 Q That refreshes your recollection that he was there? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And did Mr. Gore make reference to financial 25 contributions at that meeting? 36 1 A Not that I recall. 2 Q You just don't remember? 3 A Again, if there had been some reference to 4 financial contributions, it would have seemed out of place, 5 and I probably would have remembered it. 6 Q Well, given the fact that you claim you never had 7 any exposure to the financial side of fund-raising, how would 8 you have formed an opinion that that would have been 9 inappropriate? 10 A This seemed to be an official function, official 11 sendoff, and it was always my understanding that the White 12 House attempted to keep political activities separate from 13 fund-raising activities. 14 Q Where did you learn that from? 15 A Well, certainly when you -- I can only extrapolate 16 on that point, because when Ms. Fredericks would advise the 17 Secretary about whether or not he could participate in any 18 type of, or attend -- 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, to the extent that there 20 is any attorney-client information that's being sought by 21 that question. Any information that Ms. Fredericks gave to 22 the Secretary that would have been legal advice that he 23 sought is subject to the attorney-client privilege. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, not if it relates to this 25 particular matter, which is a core issue in the case. 37 1 MS. BRASWELL: No, Your Honor -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Re-read the question and answer, 3 please. 4 (The reporter read back the record.) 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: To answer that question, Ms. Lew, 6 must you summarize or recount any legal advice ever given by 7 this Ms. Fredericks -- who I take it is an attorney? 8 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: To Secretary Brown? 10 THE WITNESS: Correct. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Were you present when that legal 12 advice was given? 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then how are you aware of its 15 existence? 16 THE WITNESS: If I can step back for a moment? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 18 THE WITNESS: That whenever the Secretary was asked 19 to participate in non-official activities, there had to be 20 like an allocation of expenses, et cetera, and that was just 21 general -- general government, I mean department practice. 22 So I believe -- I mean, so I just extrapolated that 23 you don't mix the two. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But that is your extrapolation. 25 THE WITNESS: Correct. 38 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And it's not based on any legal 2 advice you herd Ms. Fredericks give to the Secretary? 3 THE WITNESS: Correct. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Obviously, the attorney-client 5 privilege is not broken. Okay? 6 MS. BRASWELL: No. It appeared to me, Your Honor, 7 that she was about to divulge attorney-client information. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's fine. Let's proceed. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q So it was your understanding that, at the Commerce 11 Department, you were not to mix official business with fund- 12 raising? 13 A That you could not use official time to engage in 14 political activities. 15 Q And that you could not use taxpayer money to engage 16 in political activities? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Consequently, if seats on trade missions were sold 19 for campaign contributions, offered for campaign 20 contributions to the Democratic Party, it was your 21 understanding that that would be illegal? 22 A Well, since I do not know or have any knowledge 23 whether that occurred, I can't have an opinion about that. 24 Q Well, you can have an opinion about that. Given 25 the foundational facts and opinions that you've just 39 1 registered, that you shouldn't mix official business with 2 political activities -- 3 A Correct. 4 Q -- if seats on trade missions were offered to 5 political campaign contributors, based upon your experience, 6 would that be illegal? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, calls for a legal 8 conclusion. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why is she competent to speak to 10 that issue, and why is her competence at issue? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: She was general counsel of the 12 Commerce Department. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But she is being asked to give a 14 legal opinion with reference to a certain given set of facts, 15 is that right? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and the reason is that here we 17 have the President and the Vice President placed at a meeting 18 with business executives who are going on a trip to China, 19 many of whom have given political contributions to the 20 Democratic Party and Clinton-Gore campaign, not in dispute, 21 particularly Mr. Schwartz, and I asked her a series of 22 questions, whether there were discussions about political 23 contributions. 24 She said she would have remembered that, if it was 25 made, if those comments were made, because it would have been 40 1 inappropriate. So this is just a continuation of the line of 2 questioning. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But now we've gone to a somewhat 4 different area. We are asking her to give a legal opinion 5 with reference to a practice that may or may not have been 6 engaged in, and I don't really see the relevance of that 7 legal opinion to anything that's before us today. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Because I'm getting to state of mind 9 and intent. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Her intent? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Her intent, the intent of others that 12 work around her, because obviously, there is a record of 13 documents not having been produced here. There's a record of 14 testimony which has not been true. The Court documented that 15 in its orders of December 22, 1998. 16 And for her to say that "I would have remembered 17 that because such remarks would have been improper" bears on 18 her state of mind as to why it was improper. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I find that 20 incomprehensible. I don't think the Court has been given any 21 further information as to why this question should be 22 answered by this witness. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, it's not 24 incomprehensible. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to sustain the 41 1 objection. I don't think her opinion is relevant at this 2 point. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask for reconsideration, on 4 this basis. She said, Your Honor -- and she raised the 5 issue, it wasn't me -- she raised the issue that she would 6 have remembered that comment because that comment would have 7 been improper. And I'm allowed to ask her whether she has 8 knowledge as to why it's improper. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, then, maybe you can inquire 10 of her, if you wish, whether during the course of her 11 experience at the Department of Commerce she ever looked into 12 that question, which I think is a different issue from what's 13 happening now, which is she's been given a hypothetical set 14 of facts and asked to give her legal opinion on them. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me ask it a different way. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She's not -- I don't understand 17 why her qualifications to give that opinion and her giving it 18 bear on any issue in the case. 19 I could understand why you were of the view, Mr. 20 Klayman, that if Ms. Lew were to say whatever she is about to 21 say about the propriety or impropriety of that practice, it 22 would bear on whether the people we have been discussing in 23 these depositions did or did not do something wrong. I 24 certainly concede that. 25 But I'm not certain I understand why that has 42 1 anything to do with her knowledge -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'm not trying -- 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- that is, that has to do with 4 the creation of documents with reference to trade missions, 5 the participation of the DNC in the creation of those 6 documents, the transmittal of those documents to the 7 Department of Commerce, and the destruction or removal of 8 those documents from the Department of Commerce. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the reason is, Your Honor, 10 because we have been charged by the Court to take discovery 11 to determine not just removal, suppression, destruction of 12 documents and other evidence, but also with regard to certain 13 testimony that had been provided. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: And the Court has given us, in 16 effect, the ability to take discovery on the showings of 17 misconduct, among other matters; and therefore, state of mind 18 is important in that regard. 19 I'm not trying to prove here whether it is or is 20 not illegal. I'm just trying to establish state of mind. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Whose state of mind? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Her state of mind. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Lew's state of mind? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Lew's state of mind. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: At what point? 43 1 MR. KLAYMAN: At any point during these trade 2 missions. And she brought the issue into question by herself 3 stating that "I would have remembered a statement about 4 political contributions, because that was improper." And 5 this is a follow-up to that, and I should be permitted, in 6 all due respect, to get into that. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, to what extent do you want 8 to get into it? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me try a different way of asking 10 the question. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right, try again. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q During your years in government service, did you 14 ever learn that to mix political fund-raising with government 15 services was illegal? 16 A At some point in time, I was briefed on the Hatch 17 Act. 18 Q It calls for a "yes" or "no," my question. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask about the Hatch Act. 21 MS. BRASWELL: The witness can answer the 22 question -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: When you were briefed on the Hatch 24 Act -- well, finish your answer, Ms. Lew. Why would briefing 25 on the Hatch Act have anything to do with what Mr. Klayman 44 1 just asked you? 2 THE WITNESS: Because the Hatch Act -- and it's 3 been -- I apologize to the Judge and to the Court. It's been 4 a while since I've had anything to do with the Hatch Act. 5 But the Hatch Act basically prohibited certain 6 types of activities of government employees and allowed other 7 types of political activities of government employees. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Therefore, you answered Mr. 9 Klayman's question as you did because that briefing discussed 10 those issues? 11 THE WITNESS: In terms of, you know, you couldn't 12 use government telephones for political activities, you 13 couldn't certainly use -- I can't remember -- a government 14 car, things like that. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can't use government resources to induce 18 political campaign contributions, correct; that's what you 19 learned? 20 A I believe I said to engage in certain types of 21 political activities. 22 Q And those types of political activities would 23 include fund-raising, correct? 24 A I'm not sure if I remember that now. I mean, I 25 don't -- I don't recall. I mean, like I say, it's been 45 1 several years since I've looked at the Hatch Act or had any 2 reason to use it or come across it. 3 Q You limited your answer to the Hatch Act, but you 4 do know just generally that you're not to conduct fund- 5 raising by using government resources, correct? 6 MR. GAGNER: I'm going to object, Your Honor. It 7 again calls for what's probably a legal opinion, and it 8 doesn't appear to be relevant to an issue in the case. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, it bears on the issue in the 10 case in the sense that the destruction of documents in this 11 case, or their removal, may have been motivated by the 12 perception of those people who may have engaged in those 13 activities that it was important to destroy documents that 14 indicated possibly violations of law, including the Hatch 15 Act, so there is a connection there, and there is a 16 connection between the events that may be recounted in 17 documents and the motivation someone might have not to 18 produce them or to destroy them. 19 Therefore, these witnesses, it seems to me, it is 20 an appropriate inquiry for Mr. Klayman to inquire whether or 21 not they had an understanding that a particular activity that 22 might be reflected in this document was not proper. 23 MR. GAGNER: Yes, Your Honor. The difficulty is if 24 it's phrased in a way that appears to be calling for an 25 expert opinion, then that's problematic. 46 1 If it's "Your understanding as a government 2 employee was," then it's a different issue. 3 MS. BRASWELL: Which has already been asked and 4 answered, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Lew, let me see if you can 6 help me. 7 In your capacity as general counsel, was it your 8 responsibility, as opposed to someone else, to give legal 9 advice with reference to the applicability of statutes such 10 as the Hatch Act to the activities of persons employed by the 11 Secretary of Commerce, including high-ranking officials? 12 THE WITNESS: Such advice from counsel is given by 13 the assistant general counsel for administration, I think 14 administrative law. I've forgotten the name of that 15 division, but basically Ms. Fredericks' office. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Was that done under your 17 supervision? 18 THE WITNESS: I delegated that directly to her. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But prior to the 20 delegation, to your delegating it, had you made an 21 independent study of that body of the law? 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So therefore, in response to the 24 questions that Mr. Klayman has asked you about your 25 understandings, what was the source of that understanding? 47 1 THE WITNESS: In part, when I entered the 2 Department, I was given a Hatch Act briefing. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I take it you learned from 4 that briefing that, as you explained to us, that one is 5 supposed to keep segregated one's political activities from 6 one's governmental services? 7 THE WITNESS: Correct. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, the question I think Mr. 9 Klayman was asking you was, in your view, would the 10 commingling of those two functions be appropriate or 11 inappropriate, as you understand the obligations imposed upon 12 federal public servants by the law? 13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, the commingling of 14 political activity -- 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Political activities and 16 government services. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe it would be inappropriate. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Ms. Fredericks worked under your direction and 21 supervision, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 24 reporter to mark as Exhibit 19. 25 48 1 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 19 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Ms. Lew, have you seen Exhibit 19 before? 5 A No, sir, I have not. 6 Q This is a document prepared by the Democratic 7 National Committee, DNC Managing Trustee Events and 8 Membership Requirements. 9 It lists, at Point 5: "Annual Economic Trade 10 Missions. Managing trustees are invited to participate in 11 foreign trade missions, which affords opportunities to joint 12 party leaders in meeting with business leaders abroad." 13 "To become a member of this program," it says at 14 the bottom, "managing trustee membership requires a 15 contribution of $100,000 annually." 16 Based upon your prior testimony, is this the type 17 of activity that you view as improper, if Department of 18 Commerce trade missions were, in fact, the missions that were 19 being offered in this brochure? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Your Honor, I'd like to 21 explain my objection without the witness here, please. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Lew, would you please step 23 out? You can go right here in this courtroom. 24 (Witness leaves the room.) 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Ms. Braswell. 49 1 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, Mr. Klayman continually 2 with witnesses asks them this question, and assumes that the 3 foreign trade missions here are Department of Commerce trade 4 missions. 5 In fact, Mr. Klayman is well aware that the DNC has 6 gone on record and said that the trade missions referred to 7 in this brochure are DNC trade missions, they are not 8 Department of Commerce trade missions. 9 It is manifestly unfair to put this before a 10 witness with the implication that it is established that what 11 is referred in here is a Department of Commerce foreign trade 12 mission when, in fact, there is absolutely no evidence in 13 this case which would demonstrate that that's what is 14 referred to here. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Braswell -- first of all, Ms. 16 Braswell, we understand she's relatively new to the case, 17 Your Honor. There has been testimony over and over again in 18 this case where I've asked if anyone has ever known of a 19 Democratic Party trade mission. No one has ever known of 20 one. 21 There is no statement that I recollect that that 22 ever occurred and even if there was, the overwhelming 23 majority of people have testified that there was no 24 Democratic Party trade mission. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, the Democratic National 50 1 Committee filed, on April 20th, a response to Mr. Klayman's 2 appeal of Your Honor's order regarding the DNC subpoena. 3 In this particular filing, the DNC discusses -- if 4 I can just find it -- this memorandum, which refers to trade 5 missions. It's also my understanding that Rod Stein 6 testified that these trade missions were, in fact, DNC trade 7 missions. 8 On Page 7 of the brief that the DNC talks about, it 9 refers to the DNC managing trustee brochure, which is this 10 particular document here, and the DNC says that "Judging from 11 the proceedings to date in this case, and the exhibits to 12 Judicial Watch's motion for the review and reversal of the 13 magistrate judge's order, Judicial Watch has made something 14 of a cottage industry of misrepresenting to federal courts 15 that a DNC brochure listing the benefits that were available 16 to DNC managing trustees included among those benefits seats 17 on official U.S. Department of Commerce trade missions" 18 -- and then cites to the plaintiff's memorandum. 19 "In fact, however, as the DNC previously has 20 pointed out, the reference in that brochure to `annual 21 economic trade missions' refers to private DNC-sponsored 22 trips. Instead of simply asking any of the knowledgeable 23 former DNC personnel about this, Judicial Watch apparently 24 prefers to attempt to perpetuate this myth." 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if we want to do a 51 1 special TV commercial, we can maybe set aside some time, but 2 that wasn't even my question. That wasn't my question. My 3 question said "if." And I'll be happy to phrase it that way. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think maybe even a better way to 5 do it would be, "Assuming for the sake of the argument that 6 the reference in Bullet Number 5 is to a foreign trade 7 mission conducted or operated by an agency of the United 8 States," and then your question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. But just for the record, since 10 that's on the record, that's argument in a brief, that's not 11 sworn testimony. No one in this case has ever pointed to one 12 concrete trade mission by the DNC, but I'm not here to argue 13 that, and I'll stipulate, I'm not trying to prove legality or 14 illegality. I'm just trying to prove state of mind; and I 15 will be happy to emphasize the use of the word "if." 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: "If" or "assuming." 17 MR. KLAYMAN: And we have other documents which do 18 refer to other matters -- 19 MS. BRASWELL: If he makes that caveat, Your Honor, 20 then that is fine. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 22 (Witness is recalled.) 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could you please reformulate your 24 question, Mr. Klayman? 25 52 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yes. Showing you Exhibit 19, if the reference here 3 -- if -- is to a Department of Commerce trade mission, based 4 upon your experience, would the offering of this trade 5 mission for $100,000 managing trusteeship membership in the 6 Democratic National Committee have been improper? 7 A Well, that's a difficult question to answer, in 8 part because you're asking me to speculate. If the reference 9 is just annual economic trade missions, it can refer to 10 missions organized by the Democratic National Committee, by 11 congressional committees, by whomever. 12 And I don't know if I would have experience -- I 13 might have an opinion about this, but I don't think -- 14 Q I'm asking you to assume, just for purposes of the 15 hypothetical. 16 A For the hypothetical? 17 Q I'm not trying to prove whether it happened or not 18 here, that this was a Department of Commerce trade mission 19 that was being referred to, or another one, perhaps an Energy 20 Department. Based upon your prior testimony and experience, 21 would this have been improper? Is that the type of thing you 22 were referring to? 23 A Based upon my prior opinion -- and I stress that as 24 an opinion, as opposed to having experience in this area 25 -- if this was referring to Department of Commerce trade 53 1 missions, it could conceivably be inappropriate. 2 I notice that it says, "are invited," but it does 3 not necessarily guarantee that they would participate. 4 Q I didn't ask you that question. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. The witness 6 answered the question to the best of her ability. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She answered the question. Why 8 don't you go on, Mr. Klayman? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Is there anything in this brochure that says that 12 if you're invited, somehow you get rejected later? 13 MR. GAGNER: Objection. It's argumentative. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The document, I think, speaks for 15 itself. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: That's true, Your Honor. 17 I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 18 mark as Exhibit 20. 19 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 20 was 20 marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever heard of a Martha Phipps? Do you 23 know Martha Phipps? 24 A Not that I recall. 25 Q Do you know of anyone who worked at the DNC whose 54 1 name is Martha Phipps? 2 A Not that I know of. 3 Q Do you know of an Ann Cahill? 4 A Yes, an Ann Cahill, yes. 5 Q Where did Ann Cahill work? 6 A I met her in the Transition Office in 1993. 7 Q Did she move on and work anywhere else after the 8 Transition Office? 9 A I don't know, because I think she had a baby and 10 stopped working for a while. 11 Q Do you know if she worked in the White House? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Did she work ever at the DNC, Democratic National 14 Committee? 15 A I don't recall that. I don't recall her saying 16 that to me. I don't know. 17 Q I'll show you what has been marked as Exhibit 20. 18 This is a memorandum of May 5, 1994 to Ann Cahill from Martha 19 Phipps, "White House Activities." Have you ever seen this 20 document before? Take an opportunity and read it. 21 A (Examining) No, I have not. 22 Q The document reads: "In order to reach our very 23 aggressive goal of 40 million this year, it would be very 24 helpful if we could coordinate the following activities 25 between the White House and the Democratic National 55 1 Committee." 2 Point 4: "Invitations to participate in official 3 delegation trips abroad. Contact Alexis Herman." 4 Now, does that refresh your recollection as to 5 whether or not seats on trade missions by any government 6 agency were being offered in exchange, in whole or in part, 7 for political campaign contributions? 8 A I have no such knowledge, sir. 9 Q Now, based on your prior testimony and your 10 experience, when you use the word "official," that means 11 government, correct? 12 A I would assume so, yes. 13 Q And consequently, if, indeed, this was occurring, 14 that the DNC and White House were raising up to $40 million 15 and offering invitations to participate in official 16 delegation trips abroad based on your prior testimony and 17 experience, that would be improper, correct? 18 A Well -- 19 Q It calls for a "Yes" or "No." 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If you can answer "Yes" or "No," 22 Ms. Lew, I'd appreciate it, and you can certainly can then 23 explain your answer, if you'd like. 24 THE WITNESS: It could. It would depend on the 25 circumstances. 56 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Under what circumstances, based on your experience, 3 can you offer an invitation to participate on an official 4 government delegation trade mission trip in exchange for a 5 campaign contribution? Under what circumstance would that be 6 proper? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Based on your experience. 10 MS. BRASWELL: He misstated the document. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked a question. It wasn't 12 necessarily based on the document. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 14 THE WITNESS: For a trade mission, I do not think 15 it would be appropriate. When I'm referring to this 16 "participate in official delegation trips," again, it could 17 be -- and I'm not sure if there is a linkage here between the 18 money, the 40 million, and the trips, in any event. 19 I'm trying to think of what type of trip might be 20 official, where it would be appropriate, but I don't have 21 enough experience in this area to say. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Sitting here today, are you still a political 24 appointee of the Clinton administration? 25 A No. 57 1 Q When did you leave government service? 2 A I left government service in January 1998. 3 Q Did you leave government service for any particular 4 reason? 5 A Yes. My husband wanted to return to California. 6 Q Is that where you live today? 7 A No. We didn't make it. 8 Q Who is your husband? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, irrelevant. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's not relevant. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q I'm just -- is your husband Jack Lew? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is your husband's name Jack? 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I've always wondered that. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now you don't have to wonder. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. Jack Lew is the director 19 of OMB. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Are you employed currently? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Who are you employed by? 24 A I'm with a private company in Washington, D.C. 25 Q What is the name of that company? 58 1 A It's called the Telecommunications Development 2 Fund. It is a venture capital fund. 3 Q Is that a public company or private company? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: Private. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Who owns that company? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: It's a non-stock company, 12 incorporated in Washington, D.C. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q A non-stock? What is a non-stock company? It is a 15 public interest group? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: There are no shareholders in the 19 company. I believe that's the way it's characterized. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Is it a corporation or a partnership or -- 22 A It's a corporation. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 THE WITNESS: It's a corporation. 59 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Who do you work with? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. None of this, Your 4 Honor, relates to permitted discovery in this case. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It might, in terms of the answer 6 to the question. Who she works with may bear on some of the 7 other characters we've been talking about. 8 THE WITNESS: There are a total of four employees, 9 including myself. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Who are they? 12 A One is a secretary named Cathy LaVoie. 13 Q How is that spelled? 14 A L-a-V-o-i-e. A gentleman named Oskian O-s-k-i-a-n 15 Kouzouian K-o-u-z-o-u-i-a-n, and Penny Pickett P-i-c-k-e-t-t. 16 Q Are there principals to this corporation? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't understand the 20 question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Are there principals to this corporation? 23 A You mean partners or officers? 24 Q Partners, officers, directors. 25 A Yes. 60 1 Q Who are they? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Your Honor, instead 3 of -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Answer this question, and that 5 will be it. I just want to make sure that these people have 6 no connection with this. 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Don Cornwell is the president, 8 and I am the treasurer-secretary. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Are there any other directors or officers? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Who are they? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's enough, Mr. Klayman. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let me do this, so we don't 17 spend any more time on this. You can ask her, at the 18 conclusion of the deposition, if any of the people she works 19 with have been mentioned in your prior questions as people 20 who might have something to do with this, but I think we're 21 gone far enough in this area. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask that she just be 23 sequestered for a few minutes? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, what we're going to do now 25 is, why don't we give our reporter a break? She needs one. 61 1 And while you're doing that, you can do whatever you want to 2 do. Did you want to talk to me? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, in the presence of counsel. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Go ahead and take a 5 break, Ms. Lew. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Are we going to discuss this off the 7 record, though? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: No, on the record is fine. 9 THE WITNESS: Should I go back to -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Or you can take a break. We're 11 going to just take five minutes, to give the reporter a 12 break, as soon as we finish this. 13 (Witness leaves the room.) 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask, Your Honor, that counsel 15 not discuss the substance of our conversations with Ms. Lew 16 while she's testifying, invoke the rule? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please, sure. All right. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Ms. Lew was in charge, she was 19 the general counsel. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Right. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Lew has acknowledged briefly this 22 morning, but it's also in her prior testimony, that she 23 worked with Hoyt Zia at the Bureau of Export Administration. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She said so. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Zia is a close friend of John 62 1 Huang. In fact, when Mr. Huang was seeking to evade this 2 court's subpoena, Mr. Huang tried to be in contact with Mr. 3 Zia. 4 Mr. Zia was in charge of reviewing export license 5 applications, which included high technology, some of which 6 went to China. Mr. Zia played a role in fund-raising with 7 Mr. Huang, admittedly, at the DNC. 8 Mr. Sockowitz, who worked underneath Ms. Lew, took 9 satellite encryptions -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm familiar with this. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: -- out of the Commerce Department, 12 usable in the telecommunications industry. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: And consequently, her presence in the 15 telecommunications industry, she may be associated with 16 people, if not the exact names that we've had come up, who 17 are also associated with some of the people who are alleged 18 to have passed this kind of information to foreign sources, 19 and that's why it's very, very important. 20 And that information was discussed and made part of 21 the trade trip. You had, for instance, Bernard Schwartz of 22 Loral on there. Mr. Schwartz, there's no dispute, his 23 company passed that information to the Chinese, passed that 24 kind of telecommunications information to the Chinese, 25 including missile technology. 63 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, in terms of 2 discovery, why isn't this permissible inquiry as to whether 3 the people she presently works with had any association with 4 some of the other people we have been discussing who were on 5 the trade mission trip, who are alleged, like Sockowitz, to 6 have removed documents from the Department of Commerce, even 7 though they had a highly important technological significance 8 to certain people? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It is discovery. 11 MS. BRASWELL: It is discovery, but it is supposed 12 to be discovery regarding documents at the Department of 13 Commerce, and the alleged removal or destruction of 14 documents. Judge Lamberth said that repeatedly, in his 15 opinion, that it was to be limited -- wait, can I just 16 finish? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Of course. I'm sorry. I didn't 18 mean to interrupt you. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Please. It seems to me that the 20 better way, rather than bringing a lot of innocent, 21 unconnected people's names into these depositions, is to ask 22 whether she is aware of whether or not anybody associated 23 with her firm had any connection with anyone who went on the 24 trade mission to China, rather than asking questions about 25 "Who is your firm," "Who are the officers"? 64 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But that leaves another area of 2 inquiry, in which Mr. Klayman is permissibly making the 3 inquiry, which is this troubling question, that Judge 4 Lamberth certainly talked about, about Sockowitz removing a 5 document, the significance of that removal for the 6 advancement of the technology of China. 7 MS. BRASWELL: But in this case -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Which in turn, as we've discussed, 9 would go back to give a motive to people to destroy documents 10 that pertained to that. So that's something -- 11 MS. BRASWELL: But there's got to be -- he's got to 12 make a connection. He could ask, for example, "Do any of the 13 individuals in your company have any association with Mr. 14 Sockowitz?" 15 There needs to be a foundation tying some of these 16 innocent people to some of the individuals we've talked about 17 before he starts bringing their names into this deposition. 18 It's unfair to them and it's unnecessary. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't understand how they will 20 be harmed merely by it being said that she now works with 21 them. 22 MS. BRASWELL: There has to be -- there has to be a 23 foundation to bring these people into this case. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The foundation is, as Mr. Klayman 25 has explained to us, that there is a connection between the 65 1 removal of these documents, particularly by Sockowitz, and 2 the development, as I understand it, of the Chinese 3 telecommunications industry. 4 MS. BRASWELL: But the only thing -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Therefore, the fact that a 6 Department of Commerce official went to work for people who 7 had some relationship with the trade mission or with that 8 other topic, the general topic of the transmittal of 9 telecommunications policy information to the Chinese, seems 10 to me to be reasonably likely to lead to relevant evidence. 11 MR. GAGNER: If I may, Your Honor, the way it's 12 harmful to these people has to do with what happens to these 13 depositions. 14 They appear on the Judicial Watch web sites, little 15 excerpts of them. They appear on television. They appear in 16 columns. Their names are bandied about throughout the 17 Internet. And, in many cases, they're people who have 18 absolutely nothing to do with the issues involved. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why don't we do this? Why don't 20 we permit the witness to answer the questions, and I will 21 place her answers under seal. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I think I can moot this out, 23 Your Honor. First of all -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: -- we're all in a public proceeding 66 1 that has a public significance. 2 No one has been bandied about the Internet or 3 airways more than me -- perhaps Ken Starr -- in terms of 4 attacks on me and on Judicial Watch, et cetera. So we're all 5 grownups and we all can accept that, within the bounds of the 6 law. 7 This issue, however, is public already. There is 8 an article on it. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who she works for now? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. And it's October 1998, and the 11 names are listed, publicly. 12 MR. GAGNER: Do you have more copies of that? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 14 MR. GAGNER: Thank you. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So it seems, Ms. Braswell and 16 counsel, that Ms. Lew reported to a reporter who these people 17 are. 18 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, how is that still 19 relevant to connecting these people to this case? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, because now we know who they 21 are. Now, the question is whether there is such a 22 connection. 23 MR. GAGNER: Yes. I think, Your Honor, that's what 24 ought to be asked. That is, is there any connection known to 25 her between any of these people and Commerce, or the trade 67 1 missions, or the delivery of documents or technology to the 2 Chinese or anybody else. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And is that where you're headed, 4 Mr. Klayman? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Mm-hmm. Yes. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. I think in light of this, 7 you can ask a few more -- you can, I suppose the fastest way 8 would be to just bring this to her attention, ask her if that 9 is an accurate statement of the people that on the board, and 10 if they have any connection whatsoever to the Department of 11 Commerce trade missions or the telecommunications problem 12 that you've discussed in previous depositions. Is that okay 13 with everyone? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. That's where I was headed. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Why don't we give our 16 court reporter five minutes, and see if we can get back here 17 at 11:40? 18 (A brief recess was taken.) 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Lew, I'm going to show you what 20 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 20 -- 21 THE COURT REPORTER: Twenty-one. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Twenty-one. This is an article 23 entitled -- 24 Do we have other copies? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. You gave us copies. 68 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, okay. It's by Robert H. 2 Schwaninger, S-c-h-w-a-n-i-n-g-e-r, Jr., headline, 3 "Barbarians at the Fund," October 1998. 4 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 21 5 was marked for identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you know a Mr. Robert Schwaninger, Jr.? 8 A I believe I've met him, yes. 9 Q Did you meet him in the context of him writing this 10 article or otherwise? 11 A Well, he did not tell me he was writing an article, 12 but I've met him, yes. 13 Q And have you seen this article before? I take it 14 you have. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Does this describe your current employer, the 17 acronym TDF, Telecommunications Development Fund? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And at the bottom of the first page, it says, 20 "Lew reported that the TDF board consists of Don Cornwell, 21 chairman" -- that's the person you just identified before the 22 break, correct? -- 23 A Right. 24 Q -- "Debra Lee," D-e-b-r-a, President of Black 25 Entertainment Television," correct? -- 69 1 A Yes. 2 Q -- "Richard Fields, of Allen Investment Group; 3 Thomas Hart, Washington telecommunications attorney (who is 4 the 'father' of the TDF); Jere," J-e-r-e, "Glover, an 5 official of the Small Business Administration; and FCC 6 Chairman Bill Kennard," K-e-n-n-a-r-d. "Kennard was 7 nominated to the board by former Chairman Reed Hundt. There 8 is one vacant spot on the board which was and remains to be 9 filled by an official of the U.S. Treasury Department." 10 Does this accurately describe the people who sit on 11 the board of directors of TED? 12 A The Treasury position has been filled. 13 Q And who fills that? 14 A A gentleman named Michael Barr. 15 Q How is that spelled? 16 A B-a-r-r. 17 Q This is the board. Are there officers of the 18 corporation that aren't listed here? 19 A As I mentioned, Mr. Cornwell is the president and I 20 am the secretary-treasurer. 21 Q Is this a government agency, the Telecommunications 22 Development Fund? 23 A No, it is not. 24 Q Is it a quasi-government agency? 25 A No, it is not. 70 1 Q Under what authority does it not have to issue 2 shares of stock? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 MR. GAGNER: Objection, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I want to know who the 7 shareholders are, if there are any, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Are there any shareholders of this 9 corporation? 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Are there any individuals associated with this 13 company who have done business in China? Other than 14 yourself. 15 A Well, excuse me. I don't think I've done business 16 in China, but -- 17 Q Well, you've been to China on a trade trip, right? 18 Several? 19 A I have been to China on visits, yes. But have I 20 done business there? I dispute that qualification. 21 Q Your purpose was to further American business 22 interests in China, correct? 23 A My purpose -- 24 Q The stated purpose. 25 A The stated purpose was to serve as the U.S. chair 71 1 of the commercial law group. 2 Q Okay. So does that constitute doing business in 3 China? 4 A When you said doing business, I interpreted that to 5 mean commercial business, as in transactions. 6 Q Well, you were furthering commercial transactions 7 of private American companies, correct? That was the goal. 8 A The goal was to bring greater transparency to the 9 system of law in China. 10 Q Okay. Well, my question was is there anybody who 11 works for or is a member of the board, is an official or who 12 has any association with this company who has ever done 13 business in China or had any relationship to China? 14 A Not to my knowledge. 15 Q How did you get your position on this board? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll see if I can ask it a different 19 way, Your Honor. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Was there someone who recommended you to this 22 board? 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 25 72 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Now, this board deals with -- correct me if I'm 3 wrong -- its purpose is to provide funding for small business 4 getting into the telecommunications sector? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'm trying to get enough 8 facts to do the link. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, a link to what? If you want 10 her to step out, I'll be glad to hear you as to what the link 11 is. 12 Ms. Lew, step out. 13 (Witness leaves the room.) 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Would it be possible to do something 15 similar to the way we handled Mr. Huang's deposition? Can I 16 give this to you on a separate transcript? I am a little bit 17 wary about laying out my whole line of questioning in front 18 of counsel here. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. I have a right, 20 Your Honor, when he seeks to ask a certain line of 21 questioning, to hear what his rationale is for why it's 22 relevant. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Here's where I think we were. 24 I thought we had agreed when the witness was absent last time 25 that the connection might be whether or not the people with 73 1 whom she is presently associated in business in turn did 2 business in China or have some connection to trade missions 3 or some connection to the distribution, proper or improper, 4 of technological information to China with reference to 5 various telecommunications issues. 6 With that topic exhausted, the work of this 7 particular firm doesn't strike me as being relevant at all to 8 anything we're doing. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like to ask a few more -- for 10 instance, some of the people that are listed here are with 11 companies that appear on the minority donor list. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, then proceed, then. That's 13 appropriate. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. And what I'm trying to develop 15 here is whether in effect she was working with Sockowitz and 16 participated in that removal for her own possible gain later. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: And that may go beyond -- that may go 19 beyond this company, just the very fact that she's now 20 associated with telecommunications shows a certain intent. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand, Mr. Klayman. That's 22 fine. Thank you. 23 Please get her. 24 (Witness is recalled.) 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Lew, I'm going to show you what 74 1 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 22. This is a 2 document which is titled Minority Donor List. It consists of 3 21 pages; we established that at the deposition yesterday of 4 Jude Kearney. 5 (Lew Deposition Exhibit 22 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 9 A No, I have not. 10 Q Did you have any knowledge as to whether or not a 11 minority donor list was found in the files of Jude Kearney at 12 the Commerce Department? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you have any such knowledge of 15 where this file was found? 16 THE WITNESS: No, I do not. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you heard from any source that a minority 19 donor list was found in the files of Jude Kearney at the 20 Commerce Department since your last deposition? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to the form of the 22 question. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: I believe I read about it in the 25 paper. 75 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you discussed that with anyone? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you had any discussions with Mr. Kearney since 5 your last deposition? 6 A I saw him at a Wolf Trap charitable event, which 7 was probably attended by a thousand, maybe 2,000 people, and 8 we said hello. 9 Q Any other occasion? 10 A No. 11 Q Appearing on this minority donor list is Ms. Sheila 12 Johnson of Black Entertainment Television. Do you know Ms. 13 Johnson? 14 A I'm sorry, where are you? 15 Q Let me just show it you. It's on the list. Sheila 16 Johnson, Black Entertainment Television. 17 MS. BRASWELL: What page are you on, please? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: These aren't numbered, I remember 19 from yesterday. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Who's listed at least at the top of 21 the page? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She is. 23 MS. BRASWELL: She is? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She's at the top. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: The sixth page from the back of the 76 1 document. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's the sixth page from the rear. 3 THE WITNESS: Do I know Ms. Johnson? 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Yes. Have you ever heard of her? 6 A I believe I have read about her in the newspaper. 7 Q In what respect? 8 A She's a relative of Mr. Robert Johnson. I'm not 9 sure what -- in what capacity she's a relative. 10 Q And who is Mr. Robert Johnson? 11 A He is the founder of Black Entertainment 12 Television. 13 Q Do you know whether or not Black Entertainment 14 Television or a representative of that entity ever went on a 15 trade mission of the Commerce Department, such as to South 16 Africa? 17 A I do not know. 18 Q Now, I notice that the chairman of your group TDF 19 is Debra Lee of Black Entertainment Television, correct? 20 A No, she's a member of the board. The chairman is 21 Mr. Cornwell. 22 Q Okay. Debra Lee is the president. I'm sorry, I 23 misread that. 24 A No, she's the president -- actually, this is 25 incorrect. She's the president of Black Entertainment, of 77 1 what's referred to as BET Holding Company. 2 Q All right. She's on the board, right? 3 A She's on the board of TDF. Correct. 4 Q Okay. Did you ever have any dealings with Black 5 Entertainment Television at the Commerce Department? 6 A No. 7 Q Is Ms. Lee associated in any way, either in the 8 past or presently, with the Democratic National Committee or 9 the White House? 10 A I do not know, sir. 11 Q Did she ever work for either of those two entities? 12 A I do not know, sir. 13 Q When you were at the Small Business Administration, 14 did you get involved in telecommunications matters? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: You mean with respect to small 18 business lending? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q With respect to anything. 21 A The only context I would have had with any type of 22 so-called telecommunications was I served as the SBA 23 representative to the TDF board at that time. 24 Q When was TDF founded? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 78 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Was it June 26, 1998? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5