IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. : 95-0133 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Washington, D.C. Friday, April 30, 1999 Deposition of TERENCE RICHARD McAULIFFE a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, 3rd and Constitution, N.W., Washington, D.C. commencing at 10:10 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA UTGOFF BRASWELL, ESQ. Assistant United States Attorney U.S. Attorney's Office 555 Fourth Street, N.W. 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 FRANK TRIVERI, ESQUIRE U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Deponent: RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, ESQ. Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP 1615 L Street N.W., Suite 700 Washington, D.C. 20036 Also present: Thomas Fitton, President, Judicial Watch Jason Aldrich, Esq., Judicial Watch 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 7 McAULIFFE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 1 Business Leadership Forum 47 No. 2 Notice of Deposition 47 No. 3 DNC Managing Trustee Events & Membership Requirements 90 No. 4 Memorandum dated January 13, 1994 to Bob, Ari, Fran, from Eric, re: Trade Mission to Russia 110 No. 5 Memorandum dated May 5, 1994 to Ann Cahill from Martha Phipps, re: White House Activities 129 No. 6 The Managing Trustee Program 134 No. 7 Letter dated August 17, 1994 to Harold Ickes from Terence R. McAuliffe 138 No. 8 Washington Post article dated January 19, 1997, "Clinton's Million Dollar Man; After Raising a Bundle, Terry McAuliffe Now Wants to Lower his Profile" 155 No. 9 Transcript of evidentiary hearing held March 23, 1998 162 No. 10 Letter dated November 16, 1993 to Ron Brown from Wilson Golden, re: 1994 South Africa Trade Mission Digital Software Corporation Electrical Power Systems 171 No. 11 Washington Post article dated May 24, 1998, "Liu and Johnny Chung: Puzzling Financial Ties, Details Emerge on DNC Donor's China Link" 183 4 McAULIFFE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 12 Memorandum to Terry McAuliffe dated June 6, 1994 from Ari Swiller re: Trustee Calls 194 No. 13 Memorandum dated November 30, 1994 to Terry McAuliffe and Laura Hartigan from Ari Swiller 199 No. 14 Memorandum dated August 22, 1994 to Martha Shoffner from David Mercer, re: Follow up to meeting with Charlie Trie 204 No. 15 Daily News New York article dated November 1, 1996, "Bill's Man Linked to Asian Donors" 207 No. 16 Letter dated July 25, 1994 to Melissa Moss from Terry McAuliffe and memorandum dated July 25, 1994 to Melissa Moss from Terry McAuliffe 218 No. 17 Office of Business Liaison Week in Review #5, to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter, re: OBL Weekly Activities, dated August 6, 1993 224 No. 18 Memorandum dated April 19, 1994 to Tracey Rancifer re: Contacts for Latin America 228 No. 19 Memorandum dated March 30, 1994 to Tracey Rancifer re: Minority Exporters 230 No. 20 Donor file notes 231 No. 21 Donor list 238 No. 22 Minority donor list 240 No. 23 Wall Street Journal Article dated November 13, 1996, "Huang, While at Commerce Department, Talked to Democratic Fundraisers" 252 No. 24 Affidavit of Nolanda Hill 257 No. 25 Trade mission participants 263 5 McAULIFFE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 26 Memorandum dated June 6, 1994 to Sally from Kathy 271 No. 27 Memorandum dated January 5, 1993 to Nancy Hernreich from Terry McAuliffe 280 No. 28 Chicago Sun-Times article dated March 7, 1997 "Fundraising issue gets hotter; Senate plan allows $4.35 million for probe" 299 No. 29 Rolodex of Paul Donovan 305 No. 30 Correspondence between Judicial Watch and Richard Ben-Veniste 314 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is 3 the deposition of Terence McAuliffe taken by the counsel 4 for the Plaintiff in the matter of Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 v. U.S. Department of Commerce in the U.S. District Court 6 for the District of Columbia, Case No. 95-0133, held in the 7 chambers of Judge John Facciola at the U.S. District Court 8 for the District of Columbia, on this date, April 30, 1999 9 and at the time indicated on the video screen, which is 10 10:10 a.m. 11 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am the videographer. 12 The court reporter today is Rita Hemphill from the firm of 13 Diversified Reporting. 14 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, General Counsel and 16 Chairman of Judicial Watch. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Richard Ben-Veniste, a partner 19 in the firm of Weil, Gotshal & Manges, representing 20 Mr. McAuliffe. 21 MR. SOUTHARD: Dave Southard, a law clerk at 22 the firm of Weil, Gotshal & Manges. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the 24 U.S. Attorney's office, representing the Department of 25 Commerce. 7 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter please 2 swear in the witness? 3 MS. BRASWELL: You missed one. 4 MR. TRIVERI: Frank Triveri. I'm an attorney at 5 the Commerce Department. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter swear 7 in the witness? 8 Whereupon, 9 TERENCE RICHARD McAULIFFE 10 was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn, 11 was examined and testified as follows: 12 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Mr. McAuliffe, will you please state your name? 15 A Terence Richard McAuliffe. 16 Q And when were you born? 17 A February 9, 1957. 18 Q Have you ever been deposed before? 19 A Yes. 20 Q When was that? 21 A Boy. When was that, Richard? 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: In connection with what? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you have to testify. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I can't recall the exact dates. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: In connection with anything. 8 1 THE WITNESS: The Thompson Committee and the Senate 2 finance hearings. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q This was in 1997? 5 A 1997. Correct. 6 Q Were you deposed in any other congressional type 7 proceedings? I'll see if I can walk you through this real 8 quick. 9 A I never heard from any House committee hearings. 10 No. And, in the Senate, it as just Senator Thompson. 11 Q Well, let me stop you there. You were only deposed 12 once in the Senate finance committee hearings? 13 A Two or three times, I think. I can't recall 14 specifically how many. It was two or three times. 15 Q Do you remember roughly the dates? 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Don't guess. If you remember. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the dates. No. 18 I believe the fall of '97. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever been deposed in any other types of 21 proceeding, civil or criminal? 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I object to the form of the 23 question. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 If you remember, Mr. McAuliffe, going through a 9 1 similar procedure as this. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Similar procedures. 3 THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection, I've 4 been deposed three, four times. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q And in what types of proceedings? 7 A Business proceedings, lawsuits from business 8 matters and things to that nature. 9 Q What were the names of those proceedings? 10 A I'd have to ask my counsel. I just don't recall. 11 I'm sorry. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. If you want to have the 13 help of your counsel, that's fine in this instance. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Generally, I don't want to use that 16 as a practice, but go ahead. 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I'm not testifying. I don't 18 understand. If you would like to get our assistance and give 19 you a list, I'm prepared to take that under advisement. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we get a ruling on that, 21 Your Honor? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, do you have an independent 23 recollection, Mr. McAuliffe, of these other depositions that 24 you took? 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can't remember names or 10 1 dates. No. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: To the best of your recollection, 3 Mr. Ben-Veniste would remember them? 4 THE WITNESS: I think he'd probably have to prepare 5 himself and I'm sure he'd be glad to present a list. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But if you spent two 7 minutes now with Mr. Ben-Veniste, would that refresh your 8 recollection sufficiently so we could get this out of the way 9 and move on? 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Give us a moment, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 12 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 13 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, 14 Mr. Klayman, the Senate was my only deposition, to the best 15 of my recollection. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Have you ever appeared before any other proceedings 18 where you've provided testimony under oath? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Which proceedings were they? 21 A I was a voluntary witness in a grand jury 22 proceeding in New York. 23 Q And what did that involve, just in terms of general 24 subject matter? I don't want the testimony. 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I'll direct the witness not to 11 1 answer that. 2 Grand jury proceedings, as you well know, 3 are secret proceedings. If you want to get into grand 4 jury proceedings, I suggest you call the United States 5 Attorney for the Southern District of New York about 6 that. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll ask Judge Facciola if 8 we need to. Maybe I can make it more precise. Some of these 9 matters have been reported publicly, but I don't know whether 10 or not there's testimony. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was it with regard to an investigation of the 13 Teamsters Union? 14 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You can answer that. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q And how many times did you testify there? 18 A Once. 19 Q Were there other proceedings where you testified, 20 grand jury proceedings? 21 A Yes. There was one other proceeding here in 22 Washington. 23 Q And the same way I asked you the question about the 24 teamsters union, just the general subject matter. 25 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 12 1 A I was a voluntary witness on a business matter 2 issue. 3 Q Did that matter involve Prudential Securities? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And it was over a lease agreement with a federal 6 agency? 7 It's been reported publicly, Richard. 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, then, I think that will be 9 satisfactory for you. This is not a proceeding about that. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm just trying to identify it 11 because I didn't know whether there was sworn testimony or 12 not. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You have. It was about the 14 Prudential matter. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Any other occasions where you've testified in civil 18 suits? 19 A Not to my recollection. 20 Q Have you ever been involved in litigation as a 21 defendant or plaintiff? Civil litigation. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Have any of your companies? 24 A I'm sure they have, but I can't answer that 25 question today. I'd have to sit with my counsel and figure 13 1 out -- I've never been the subject or target of any 2 investigation. I will volunteer that. 3 Q What was the style, as lawyers call it, of the 4 civil litigation? What was it called? 5 A I don't understand the question. 6 Q Something v. McAuliffe, McAuliffe v. Something? 7 A I don't know what the name of the suit was. 8 Q Where were these suits located? In Washington, 9 D.C. area? 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of the 11 question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Just trying to move through it 13 quickly. 14 MR. BEN-VENISTE: He's talked about one suit, you 15 mentioned plural. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: If we could, I don't have any problem 17 if you're helping him if I say that's okay, but please 18 don't -- 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, you've asked me to help and 20 now you're asking me not to help. Is that right? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'd rather address the 22 questions to you. I don't want to get into a colloquy. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if we can get it done. 24 Mr. McAuliffe? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir? 14 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You were asked about a lawsuit in 2 which you were involved. I think you said there was one. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you remember the name of the 5 lawsuit, Jones v. Something? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't, Your Honor. I wish I did. 7 I don't. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Do you remember when it 9 was, just roughly? 10 THE WITNESS: Two, three years ago. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And was it here in the District? 12 This court, the United States District Court for the District 13 of Columbia? 14 THE WITNESS: It could have been in Virginia. I 15 don't know. I don't know the answer to that. It could have 16 been here or Virginia, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. And do you have any 18 recollection whatsoever of the nature of the involvement? 19 It was a business matter involving -- 20 THE WITNESS: It was a business matter and I was 21 dismissed from the suit, sir. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Have you ever testified as a witness in any 25 civil suit, not as a plaintiff or a defendant? Have you 15 1 ever testified as a witness, a third-party witness? Other 2 than here today? 3 A In a court proceeding? 4 Q Court or administrative proceeding. 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Give us a moment. 6 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 7 THE WITNESS: I believe the answer to that question 8 is no. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q How long has Mr. Ben-Veniste been your attorney? 11 A Richard's been with me now for three or four years. 12 Q Did you have any type of involvement in any kind of 13 a lawsuit or administrative proceeding where you were a 14 witness before Mr. Ben-Veniste became your attorney? 15 A No, I do not believe so. 16 Q Where did you go to high school? 17 A Bishop Luden High School in Syracuse, New York. 18 Q And what year did you graduate? 19 A 1975. 20 Q And what, if anything, did you do at that time? 21 A You mean when I went to high school? 22 Q Yes. Did you go to college. 23 A Played sports -- oh, I'm sorry. I thought you 24 wanted to know what I did in high school. 25 Q After you graduated. 16 1 A I'm sorry. Yes. I received my B.A. at the 2 Catholic University of America in 1979 and received a J.D. 3 in 1984 from Georgetown University. 4 Q And after you graduated from Georgetown, did you 5 get employment? 6 A Sure. 7 Q Okay. What did you do? 8 A I was involved in several business ventures. I had 9 a law firm, my own law firm, here in Washington. 10 Q What's the name of the law firm? 11 A Then it was McAuliffe, Kelly & Raffali. 12 Q Is that law firm still in operation? 13 A It is. I left the firm in 1994. 14 Q And what happened in 1994 that caused you to leave 15 the firm? 16 A Well, at that point, I became finance chairman of 17 the Democratic National Committee and wasn't doing too much 18 work at the law firm any more and there were other business 19 ventures I was involved in and I decided to move on. 20 Q And how long did you stay as finance chair of the 21 DNC? 22 A I went in -- I think I was elected in March, the 23 middle of March 1994 and stayed until the end of the year of 24 1994, so nine months. 25 Q Let's back up a little bit. Did there come a point 17 1 in time after you graduated from law school and entered the 2 professional world where you started to do fundraising? 3 A Oh, sure. I started doing that in 1979 before I 4 went to law school. I went to work for the Carter-Mondale 5 reelection committee in 1979. 6 Q And what did you for them? 7 A Fundraising. Traveled around the country putting 8 events together. 9 Q And how long did you do that? 10 A Did that for the committee in '79, then went over 11 to the Democratic National Committee in '80 when the general 12 election duties assumed. Left after the president was 13 defeated. 14 Q And what did you do for the Democratic National 15 Committee in 1980? 16 A Raised money. 17 Q Did you have a title? 18 A I think I was director of fundraising events or 19 something like that. 20 Q During the time that you worked for the Carter 21 administration, were you aware -- 22 A I didn't work for the administration. I worked for 23 the campaign. 24 Q You worked for the Democratic National Committee? 25 A No, I worked for the Carter-Mondale reelection 18 1 committee. It's not the administration, it's a committee. 2 It's a primary committee. 3 Q Okay. Who did you work with? Who was your 4 supervisor? 5 A The finance director was a gentleman by the name of 6 Tim Finchem. 7 Q How is that spelled? 8 A F-i-n-c-h-e-m. 9 Q When you worked for the Carter-Mondale campaign in 10 around 1980, were you aware of that campaign or the White 11 House or any organization or government entity offering 12 government services for campaign contributions? 13 A No. 14 Q President Carter never did those kinds of things, 15 did he? 16 A Not to my knowledge. 17 Q He never offered seats on trade missions in 18 exchange for campaign contributions, for instance? 19 A I don't know anybody that has. 20 Q He didn't sell overnight stays in the White House 21 to campaign contributors, did he? 22 A I don't know anybody that has. 23 Q Well, I'm just asking about President Carter. 24 A No knowledge of him or anybody. 25 Q He didn't have coffees in the White House that he 19 1 put on for campaign contributors, did he? 2 A Oh, I believe he brought supporters in and they 3 had -- you could call them coffees or whatever you may want 4 to call them. I'm sure he had meetings with his supporters. 5 I would disagree with that. 6 Q Did he have them in areas of the White House other 7 than the residence? 8 A I'm sure he did, as we saw Ronald Reagan on TV had 9 a Team 100 meeting and solicited donors in the East Room of 10 the White House, so a lot of presidents have brought 11 supporters in. 12 Q Did President Carter or the Democratic Party ever 13 prepare a brochure where they listed the various perks that 14 you could get for campaign contributions? 15 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, is it appropriate to 16 object to matters so outside of the scope -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Let's move to the Clinton 18 administration. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm trying to move forward. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please. Let's get away from 21 Carter and move into this period of American history. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, there's no question 24 before you, so hold off. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. Okay. 20 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What did you do after the Carter campaign? 3 A Went to law school. 4 Q Okay. Now, did there come a point in time when you 5 engaged in fundraising again? 6 A Yes. I was involved in helping the Democratic 7 Congressional Campaign Committee, probably 1983, '84, to 8 1986. 9 Q And what did you do in that position? 10 A Fundraising. 11 Q And who was your immediate supervisor? 12 A Probably Marty Franks, who was the executive 13 director. 14 Q And from 1986 forward, did you then continue your 15 fundraising activities in some capacity? 16 A Those were all paid positions. I then have done a 17 series of volunteer positions where I volunteered my time for 18 no pay. I helped Mr. Gephardt, was his national finance 19 chairman in 1987 and 1988 when he ran for president. 20 I was elected finance chairman of the party in 21 1994. I helped what's called the Business Leadership Forum 22 in 1993, but that was very, very part-time type of -- they 23 have lay leaders that help with the party. 24 I actually was elected finance chairman in March of 25 '94, served until the end of the year, and then in 1995, I 21 1 believe it was April 14th, we opened the Clinton-Gore 2 reelection committee and I served in that capacity until 3 November 14, 1995, when we had raised the legal limit and had 4 over 300,000 donors give an average contribution of $28 to 5 our campaign and reached the limit, shut that down, and then 6 finished that. 7 Q And when did you open it up again? 8 A April 14th. 9 Q April 14th. 1994? 10 A 1995. 11 Q 1995. Okay. Did there come a point in time when 12 you met Governor Bill Clinton prior to his running for 13 election in 1992? 14 A Many times. 15 Q When was the first time you met him? 16 A I have no recollection of it. 17 Q Just roughly. 18 A He was around political party events. I'd been 19 involved in political party events since 1979. I can't give 20 you a time. 21 Q Did you ever do any fundraising for him when he was 22 governor of Arkansas? 23 A No. 24 Q Did there come a point in time when you did 25 fundraising for President Clinton or Vice President Gore in 22 1 their 1992 campaign, either for them, their campaign 2 directly, or the Democratic National Committee? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, excuse me. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 5 10:27. 6 (A brief recess was taken.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q I think where we were roughly, if it's not exactly 9 the same question, did there come a point in time when you 10 assisted then Governor Clinton and Al Gore in their campaign 11 fundraising for the 1992 election? 12 A I was not active with them in the primary part of 13 the campaign and then helped -- I was very busy with my 14 businesses and other matters and helped in the fall of 1992, 15 I believe, with the party activities and so forth. 16 Q And what specifically did you do? 17 A I chaired an event, four or five of us chaired an 18 event, in Little Rock and then just helped reach out to 19 people and bring them into the general election. No 20 specific -- no title, no specific responsibilities. 21 Q Who did you work with in setting up that event? 22 A The finance director was Nancy Jacobson. 23 Q Anyone else? 24 A No. 25 Q And what kind of an event was it? 23 1 A Typical fundraiser. I can't remember the number. 2 $1000 a plate, a thousand people screaming, yelling. You 3 know, the typical one we have. 4 Q Did you do anything else in the 1992 campaign? 5 You or anybody that worked for you? 6 A Just helped generally make some calls, but no 7 direct responsibilities. 8 Q Now, after Clinton and Gore won election in 1992, 9 did you assume any role, official or unofficial, in trying to 10 assist the administration or the Democratic Party with 11 fundraising? 12 A I helped the -- 13 Q I know what you testified to in 1994, but I'm 14 talking primarily 1992 up to 1994. 15 A Not '92, some time in '93, I became chairman of the 16 Business Leadership Forum, which was an outreach group to try 17 and bring business people, young entrepreneurs, into the 18 party. 19 We had a new dynamic, vibrant president coming in 20 town to get the stalled Bush economy going and we wanted to 21 get a lot of people involved in part of the party, to be 22 involved, who had not traditionally been part of the party 23 and we were very successful. I think we went from 200 24 members, Larry, to 800 or 900. It was very successful. 25 Q Had you set up the Business Leadership Forum? 24 1 A No. It had been around, I think -- Chuck Manatt 2 started it some time in the '80s. It was originally called 3 the Democratic Business Council. 4 Q Who did you work with as chairman? Who worked 5 under your direction and control? 6 A Well, remember, I was a volunteer. I didn't -- the 7 staff ran itself. The finance director -- I believe, I think 8 Nancy was -- Nancy Jacobson was the finance director, I 9 believe. She ran the staff and all that. And, as I say, I 10 was a lay person, was only in there, you know, on a limited 11 basis. 12 Generally, the lay people, Larry, in these 13 positions act sort of like the chief cheerleaders. They go 14 out and try and get people in, but the actual day-to-day 15 operations, I had nothing to do with. 16 Q Well, you testified that you boosted the 17 membership, correct? 18 A Mm-hmm. We. All of us together. 19 Q And where did you get the names so you could 20 solicit new members? Did you get them from the Democratic 21 National Committee? 22 A I have no idea where they got the names. That's 23 not my responsibility. 24 Q Who handled getting those names of businesses that 25 could join? 25 1 A Businesses and individuals. Party personnel, the 2 people who worked at the DNC and I can't tell you who did it. 3 Q Who was at the DNC at the time? Dave Wilhelm? Was 4 he the chairman? 5 A He was the chairman. 6 Q And who worked under him at that time? Directly in 7 his office. 8 A In David's office? 9 Q Yes. 10 A I can't remember who was there. 11 Q Was there someone by the name of David Mercer? 12 Does that ring a bell? 13 A To the best of my recollection, I thought he worked 14 in the finance division, but I may be -- 15 Q Was he working there at the time? 16 A I don't know. He has been involved at different 17 times there. 18 Q Did he provide names of persons to augment the 19 membership of the Business Leadership Forum? 20 A Not to my knowledge. 21 Q Did the Business Leadership Forum offer certain 22 perks for becoming a member? 23 A What do you mean by perks? 24 Q Did you get certain benefits in terms of 25 membership? 26 1 A Sure. You'd get briefings would go on. You'd get 2 to hear from all the party officials about what was 3 happening. I believe we had a retreat down somewhere, Boca 4 Raton or somewhere in Florida. Similar types of things. I 5 can't remember. If you have a copy of the brochure, I'll be 6 glad to look at it with you. 7 Q Did you get a meeting with the President, for 8 instance? Was that one of the perks? 9 A I don't recall, but I'm sure we did. Generally, 10 when the DNC personnel came in, I was not involved in the 11 preparation of brochures. That's not what the chair lay 12 person does. That's more of a staff function. But to the 13 best of my knowledge, I believe they sort of pilfered the 14 Republican National Committee, who were the experts at 15 putting perks and things together with brochures and they 16 sort of took a lot of stuff from them. 17 Q How did they pilfer? Did they break in? How did 18 they get that? 19 A Oh, I think the probably got a brochure from one of 20 their big donors and, you know, some guys, believe it or not, 21 Larry, play both sides of the fence. 22 Q Richard's the expert on Watergate, so I figured I'd 23 use that analogy here. 24 A Well, that's true. 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: We have seen reciprocity, 27 1 fortunately, in that kind of an exercise. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I agree with you, it's fortunate. 3 THE WITNESS: But no offense, these brochures are 4 pretty widely mailed out and to the best of my knowledge, 5 they got the Republican National Committee and copied them. 6 The Eagles, which are the top of the top of the great perk 7 offerors, is the group of Republicans who give a hundred 8 grand a year and that's really the highlight. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Now, you are considered the preeminent Democratic 11 fundraiser, correct? 12 A Well, that's very nice of you to say that. Coming 13 from you, I take that as a terrific honor. I'm very well 14 known for fundraising and proud of what I've done and proud 15 that I helped put Bill Clinton in office and keep him there 16 and do the right things. 17 Q That is your reputation, however, correct? 18 A I would never brag -- Larry, I would never -- 19 Q In all modesty -- 20 A In all due modesty, I would never brag about 21 myself. I mean, I'm honored that you would say that about me 22 and I appreciate that and I hope my mother, Millie McAuliffe 23 will see this some time on your web site, but I just don't -- 24 you know, I believe in what I do. I give up my time to do 25 this because I believe in the candidates whom I support. 28 1 I love Bill Clinton and I think God that we have 2 him in office, Larry. What he has done for this country, 3 taking people up by the bootstraps, lifting them up, taking 4 people and helping them, educating them, health care, that's 5 what it's about and that's what I fight for every day and I'm 6 awful proud of it and I'd do it again. 7 Q Is this a commercial you want to put on our web 8 site? 9 A No, but -- you know, in fundraising, you've got to 10 believe in what you do, Larry, and I believe in Bill Clinton 11 and I'm working hard for Al Gore and we've got to keep this 12 momentum going, got to keep America strong. I'm very excited 13 about it. I'm proud of what I do. 14 Q The point I'm making is -- 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q You are an expert in fundraising, correct? 17 A I would agree with that statement. 18 Q And in terms of being an expert, you have to know 19 what it is you can offer people to get them to donate money, 20 correct? 21 A I'm not sure offering people -- you have to go 22 in -- the key to fundraising and, as you know, I give 23 lectures on this, I'm on C-SPAN and CNN all the time doing 24 lectures, you have to believe in that candidate whom you are 25 supporting and someone who you want to give you money or 29 1 politically support you, they have to believe in that 2 candidate because it's a lot of work to go out and ask people 3 for money and to give money, so people don't give money for 4 the perks and all this other stuff. 5 They give money because they believe in that 6 candidate and they think that candidate will be a great 7 president, mayor or governor. That's why they do it. 8 Believe it or not. 9 Q Are you saying based on your considerable 10 experience that people give money and never expect 11 anything in exchange? 12 A I didn't say that. I'm not in the minds of our 13 donors. The point I'm making to you is people give money 14 and support candidates because they believe in them and they 15 believe in what they stand for. 16 Q In fact, the Republican Eagles were quite 17 successful. 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q And the Democrats pilfered their ideas because they 20 offered up a lot of perks that people wanted to get by making 21 contributions, correct? 22 A No, I'd argue they liked Ronald Reagan. No, Larry, 23 that's -- I mean, that's an insult to one of your heroes, 24 Ronald Reagan. That's just not right. They did it because 25 they believed in Ronald Reagan. And those that gave to Bush, 30 1 that's why they did it. I mean, that's an insult to those 2 presidents. 3 Q Every person, every single person? 4 A I can't get in the minds of all these people. I 5 don't know. I'm telling you as a general rule, people give 6 money because they believe in that candidate. 7 Q Well, if that's the case, what do they need you for 8 as a fundraiser? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 11 MS. BRASWELL: He's gone far afield. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Let's see if we can 13 get back to the substance -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we are getting to something, 15 Your Honor, believe it or not. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we might be getting 17 something that C-SPAN might enjoy, but we're trying to take a 18 deposition. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not my intent. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if we can move on. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. McAuliffe has a tremendous 22 ability to entertain. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He does. 24 THE WITNESS: You asked the questions, Larry -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: And I am finding you entertaining, 31 1 Terry, but -- 2 THE WITNESS: Good. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: -- but I am actually trying to get 4 to a point here. 5 THE WITNESS: This the truth, entertaining or not. 6 If you don't like it, you don't like it. 7 MR. BEN-VENISTE: What's the point of the 8 question? Don't argue with the witness and we'll move 9 further. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not arguing, I'm -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's see if we can 12 get along, okay? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm at my gentlemanly best today, 14 Richard. 15 THE WITNESS: You're doing great. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 17 THE WITNESS: You're not as bad as everybody says 18 you are. I think you're a perfect gentleman. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q The point is that those Republican Eagles offered 22 certain benefits for becoming a member. 23 A Correct. 24 Q And you as a fundraiser, you know Republican 25 fundraisers, correct? 32 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you're friendly with them, correct? 3 A Yes. Correct. 4 Q And you know that the way you get people to give 5 money frequently is to offer them something, correct? 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Asked and answered. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think he's explained to you that 8 he doesn't accept that thesis. 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Now, that Business Leadership Forum, in terms of 12 becoming a member, one of the perks that it offered was 13 participation on trade missions, correct? 14 A If you would give me a brochure, I cannot recall 15 that. 16 Q Well -- 17 A When you say -- what do you mean, trade missions, 18 what does that mean? 19 Q Trade missions. 20 A Do you mean a DNC-sponsored trip? 21 Q Trade trips. 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection to the form of the 23 question, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, see if you can rephrase it, 25 Mr. Klayman, if you'd be so kind. 33 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q One of the perks that was offered at the Business 3 Leadership Forum was to participate on foreign trade 4 missions. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague still. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a foundational question. 7 MS. BRASWELL: Well, it's vague. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me see if maybe we can get 10 through this. 11 Mr. Klayman, your point -- you're trying to ask 12 Mr. McAuliffe, as I understand it, whether or not it was the 13 practice of the committee by which he was employed to offer 14 that sort of event? Is that your question? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We can ask it that way, Your Honor. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor -- 17 THE WITNESS: I just wasn't employed, sir, I was a 18 volunteer, is the only point I would make. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me. I beg your pardon. 20 Okay. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, my objection remains the 22 same until Mr. Klayman indicates what kind of trade missions 23 he's talking about and who sponsored them. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Your Honor, that's -- 25 MS. BRASWELL: It is still a vague question. 34 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That is an objectionable speaking 2 objection. We've been through that before. I ask that not 3 happen again, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, if we get to that 5 point, then Mr. McAuliffe may have to step out. Let's 6 try to make our objections short and then we'll keep the 7 speaking -- 8 MS. BRASWELL: I've indicated no testimony to the 9 witness, Your Honor. 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: May I suggest that rather than 11 asking leading questions, you ask Mr. McAuliffe to explain 12 whether there were any trips that were part of the benefits 13 advertised in brochures? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask, Your Honor, some guidance 15 here, okay? We have a lot of personalities in the room 16 today. I want to ask this very straight and very direct. 17 From my point, I don't want any confrontation. There's no 18 angle here. It's a simple question. If I can just ask the 19 foundational questions, then I'll follow up with it. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And the foundational question is 21 what? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: But with all due respect to everybody 23 here, and I know people are trying to represent their 24 clients, if they'll just let the witness answer and not 25 presume the basis of my question, I think it will move it 35 1 along quicker. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: May I, Your Honor? I'm here not 3 as a personality, but as a lawyer. If a question is vague or 4 objectionable, I think I have an obligation unless it's 5 irrelevant to the proceedings to point it out and to ask a 6 leading question that has in it elements which are inaccurate 7 doesn't serve anybody's purpose. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you see, but he can respond to 9 that and I'm asking a basic neutral question, one of the 10 prerequisites for participation on trade missions. 11 Now, it's inappropriate for counsel to come in and 12 tell him the answer to that question before I even get the 13 foundational question. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let me see if we can back 15 up a bit. 16 Mr. McAuliffe? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Inquiry has been made to you about 19 trade missions. Before we go any further, what do those 20 words mean to you, sir, if anything? The words trade 21 mission. 22 THE WITNESS: You know, I think there's a huge 23 disparity between what Mr. Klayman may think a trade mission 24 is -- 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I don't care what he thinks. 36 1 I care about what you think. 2 THE WITNESS: I do. I'm confused. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You tell us, okay? What do you 4 think a trade mission is? 5 THE WITNESS: The DNC brochure offered what they'd 6 call a trade mission, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go even further back than 8 that. You're a sophisticated gentleman, you know your way 9 around Washington, there is a word called trade mission. 10 What does that word connote to you? 11 THE WITNESS: It connotes that the DNC would offer 12 trips to go abroad with not government people -- big 13 difference -- with party personnel where people would pay 14 their own way to go over. It was a networking opportunity 15 for donors to get together. That's what a trade mission in 16 my mind is. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, there is, of course, another 18 meaning to that word that we've spent a lot of time on in 19 these depositions, which of course you weren't here. 20 THE WITNESS: And I have no knowledge of those. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And it involves more officials of 22 doing that. 23 THE WITNESS: And that was never offered. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That is, the Secretary of State or 25 the Secretary of Commerce -- 37 1 THE WITNESS: Nothing to do with that. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- leads a group of American 3 businessmen to a certain place. 4 THE WITNESS: No connection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Mr. Klayman, why don't 6 you go ahead? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q The Business Leadership Forum offered participation 9 on trade missions, correct? 10 A I don't know the answer to that. Do you have a 11 copy of the brochure that you could show me to refresh my 12 memory? 13 Q Well, but you were the chairman, Mr. McAuliffe. 14 I'm asking -- first I'm asking you from your memory, are you 15 aware the that Business Leadership Forum offered seats on 16 trade missions for memberships? 17 A Offered seats? What are you talking about? They 18 don't offer seats. You're trying to trick me. I know what 19 you're trying to do. No one offered seats on any trade 20 mission. Larry, you're being deceitful. 21 Q Yes or no, was participation -- I'll change the 22 word to participation, if you don't like seats -- offered on 23 trade missions at the Business Leadership Forum? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to the form of the 25 question. He can't require a yes or no answer. 38 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He won't answer it yes or no, 2 Mr. Klayman. He's going to -- 3 If you can, Mr. McAuliffe, give the best answer you 4 can. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking -- Your Honor -- 7 Please. Don't. This is getting to be a circus 8 here because counsel is pulling out documents. I'm entitled 9 to ask questions without counsel -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can -- Mr. Ben-Veniste can take 11 a look at any documents he wants. Ask your question, 12 Mr. Klayman. Please. Go ahead. Please -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I will stipulate and I don't have to 14 because the rules provide for it, Mr. Ben-Veniste will be 15 entitled to cross-examine. I'd be happy to have him do it. 16 And I'm entitled to ask questions -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then please do so. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: -- my way without him having the 19 witness look over his shoulder to documents. 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Nobody has looked over anybody's 21 shoulder, Mr. Klayman. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't need to look over his 23 shoulder. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If I may -- if I may -- nothing 39 1 is reflecting that except your misguided sense of paranoia 2 about how depositions are conducted, Mr. Klayman. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. What happened to -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that remark was 5 unnecessary. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. Time. Okay. Let's not 7 characterize -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I move to strike that. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll strike that. Please don't 10 characterize each other. Let's try to remain civil and 11 professional. 12 All that happened, the record will reflect, is that 13 as this inquiry is going on Mr. Ben-Veniste opened up a file 14 folder and took the papers from it and put it on his chest. 15 I did not see what -- 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I'll tell you what -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Wait a minute. 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Let's move down, if we may, so 19 that Mr. Klayman -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Ben-Veniste, let me -- please, 21 if you would, let me finish what I was saying. I was trying 22 to make a record to indicate that I did not see -- and I'm 23 sitting so I can see Mr. McAuliffe, I did not see Mr. 24 McAuliffe look at those papers. 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Now, if I may, Your Honor, 40 1 Mr. Klayman asked me to move over closer to Mr. McAuliffe. 2 I have papers which are relevant to some of the questions 3 which are asked. 4 Mr. Klayman has asked a question about 1993 and 5 then has jumped to a subject which involves brochures. 6 I'm not sure what date the brochures are. I'm looking 7 through my file -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I do not wish Mr. Klayman to 10 look at my papers, I was sitting here at right angles to 11 Mr. McAuliffe when Mr. Klayman suggested that I sit closer to 12 him in order to accommodate him and his staff. 13 Now, I suggest that we all move down one and we'll 14 avoid the problem of Mr. Klayman thinking that I am showing 15 the witness documents. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well -- 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If that's acceptable, Your Honor, 18 can we do that? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I never made any 20 reference -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think it's necessary -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I never made -- we need a little room 23 here -- 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Yes. Would you move down a 25 little bit, please? 41 1 MR. KLAYMAN: We don't have the room. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, may we take a brief 3 break? This is -- this is silly. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's keep going, okay? 5 We'll give the reporter a break in a little while. 6 All right. Let's see if we can go back to the 7 question. 8 The problem that we're having is Mr. McAuliffe will 9 not accept your characterization of the word trade mission, 10 so he's never going to answer that question unless you 11 qualify it, Mr. Klayman. So that's where we are. 12 THE WITNESS: And, Your Honor -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think Mr. Ben-Veniste 14 wants you to volunteer anything, Mr. McAuliffe. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. All right. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is that right, Mr. Ben-Veniste? 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Yes, Your Honor. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking if we go through this 19 colloquy again, I ask that the witness be excused. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. If that's necessary, 21 Mr. McAuliffe will step out. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Were there any types of prerequisites that were 24 offered at the Business Leadership Forum about attending any 25 kind of trips overseas? 42 1 A You're asking about a brochure six years ago. I 2 can't specifically recall one brochure versus another. As I 3 have consistently said, I had nothing to do with the 4 preparation of brochures. 5 I could speculate that in the Business Leadership 6 brochure there might be the opportunity for donors to go on 7 overseas trips with fellow donors and DNC personnel. That I 8 would concede. 9 And, for the record, if I could, and I would like 10 to if you have it here, explain where I believe the party 11 received the language for their overseas mission if I could 12 ask my counsel to give me a piece of paper that was presented 13 to me. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, your counsel will have an 15 opportunity to cross-examine. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can do that later, 17 Mr. McAuliffe. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. It was taken from the 19 Team 100. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Are you saying that this concept of offering 22 participation on trips overseas was taken from the 23 Republicans? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Where from the Republicans? The Eagles? 43 1 Is that where you're saying it came from? 2 A I believe so. I have a copy of the brochure with 3 the wording in it. 4 Q So the Business Leadership Forum was doing what the 5 Republicans did. That's your position? 6 A No. I didn't prepare the brochure. I will tell 7 you that there's a possibility in the BLF brochure that they 8 said that you, believe it or not, could go overseas with 9 fellow donors if you paid your own way with DNC personnel. 10 Now, that is a trade mission defined by the Democratic Party. 11 Q As chairman of the Business Leadership Forum -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- you were the highest ranking person, correct? 14 A Lay person. Correct. 15 Q And everybody worked under your direction and 16 control. 17 A No. That would be a leap of faith. There was a 18 staff there under staff leadership that were paid. I did 19 not -- was not there every day, I did not run the day-to-day 20 control of the operation. I was a lay person. I went in 21 there a couple times a week. I could not -- staff people ran 22 it. 23 There was a finance director and the top BLF person 24 who was in charge of that reported to the finance director. 25 I did not attend staff meetings or things like that. 44 1 Q But in terms of your history and experience as 2 being a fundraiser, at all times, you are very concerned to 3 do things legally, correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And you know that fundraising has a number of 6 potentialities in it that if you're not very careful can 7 create problems, correct? 8 A Everything in life would have problems if you're 9 not careful. 10 Q Right. In fact, you've been enmeshed from time to 11 time in investigations about fundraising, correct? 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection to the form of the 13 question. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Sustained. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Just laying knowledge, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: State of mind. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q So therefore as chairman, you would be very careful 21 that things are offered that are legal. 22 A I would do the best I could as a lay person who was 23 not there on a day-to-day basis. Staff ran the operation. 24 The legal counsel were involved, Mr. Klayman. I wasn't 25 there. What limited knowledge I would have in the short time 45 1 I was there, I would give my best advice. 2 Q But you did take it upon yourself to either 3 yourself know or delegate to others to know what 4 representations were being made to members, correct? 5 A Staff would be in charge of that and I would assume 6 that they would put it down appropriately, deal with the 7 appropriate legal counsel. I was not involved in that 8 process. 9 Q What steps -- 10 A I was not the staff director. 11 Q What steps, if any, did you take to ensure that the 12 staff was not sending out materials that made representations 13 that could create legal problems? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 15 this continued line of questioning. We have been here for, 16 what, a lengthy period of time. I have yet to hear the 17 Department of Commerce even mentioned. This is a FOIA case 18 against the Department of Commerce regarding documents. This 19 is not -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 21 MS. BRASWELL: Please don't interrupt me. 22 This is not a case -- 23 MR. KLAYMAN: But -- 24 MS. BRASWELL: This is not a case about fundraising 25 and how the DNC goes about fundraising. It's about 46 1 documents. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. The question of trade 3 missions is crucial. Objection overruled. 4 Please go ahead. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you make it a point to either yourself or have 7 someone else review the materials that went out to make sure 8 they didn't create legal problems? 9 A They had a procedure at the DNC for that. I was 10 not involved in that process. I had full faith that the 11 people involved in the day-to-day operations were doing a 12 good job. 13 Q Was the Business Leadership Forum a part of the DNC 14 in 1993? 15 A Yes. 16 Q It was a section of the Democratic National 17 Committee? 18 A It had been the Business Council since the early 19 '80s. 20 Q Okay. So it was, for all effective purposes, the 21 DNC? The Business Leadership Forum. 22 A It was a donor council within the DNC finance 23 division. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 25 reporter to mark as Exhibit 1. 47 1 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 2 1 was marked for identification.) 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Before I do that, I'll show you what 4 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 2. 5 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 6 2 was marked for identification.) 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the matter? 9 MS. BRASWELL: May I please have a copy? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy -- would you like two? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Thank you. No, one is fine. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I would like one, if you have an 13 extra one. This is Exhibit 2 or 1? 14 THE COURT REPORTER: That is Deposition Exhibit 2. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Referring to Exhibit 2, Mr. McAuliffe, this is a 17 copy of a notice of deposition duces tecum and a subpoena. 18 A Okay. 19 Q Which your counsel accepted service of. 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q Have you ever seen that before? 22 A Not to my knowledge. 23 Q Look at Appendix A where it requires the production 24 of certain documents. Have you ever discussed the production 25 of these documents with anyone? 48 1 A Besides my counsel? No. 2 Q Did you discuss it with your counsel? 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, of course he discussed it 4 with his counsel. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: We're not going to have some 7 waiver problem, are we, with this? Because I see that is 8 another favorite technique of yours. 9 Without waiving attorney-client privilege, you may 10 answer that question. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, wait a second. 12 Your Honor, you are the judge here, not 13 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Mr. McAuliffe, you're 15 obviously a graduate of a law school. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you're well aware that there 18 exists in law an attorney-client privilege. 19 THE WITNESS: Correct. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As you also remember from law 21 school, it's not the easiest thing in the world to interpret. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I want you to look at this 24 document, if you would. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 49 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And bear in mind that if the 2 question indicates to you a requirement that you disclose 3 something you said to Mr. Ben-Veniste in confidence or 4 Mr. Ben-Veniste said to you in confidence, would you please 5 state so? 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We will then permit you and 8 Mr. Ben-Veniste to discuss the assertion of the privilege at 9 that point. Is that okay? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, but I'm entitled to ask 12 the witness -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: And I ask the Court for instructions, 15 this is what happened here and I ask that you instruct it 16 not to happen again. I said did you ever see it before, 17 Mr. Ben-Veniste injects the answer before I get a response. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I would appreciate if the speaking 19 objections were kept to the barest minimum and I will try to 20 anticipate them and we'll move on. 21 All right. Mr. McAuliffe, you understand the 22 ground rules? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Since we're dealing with 25 attorney-client privilege questions, Your Honor, I'd like the 50 1 opportunity to consult with Mr. McAuliffe. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. Please. Why don't you 3 go into the courtroom and have a moment to address that? 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's about time for our morning 6 break anyway. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record 8 at 10:55. 9 (A brief recess was taken.) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record 11 at 11:01. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q When we left off, I was asking you, Mr. McAuliffe, 14 whether you had ever seen Appendix A to Exhibit 2 before. 15 A Mm-hmm. Go head. 16 Q It's a subpoena that your counsel accepted on your 17 behalf. 18 A Correct. 19 Q Have you seen it? 20 A Yes. 21 Q When did you see it? Today? 22 A No. At some point, Mr. Ben-Veniste sent it over to 23 me. He also sent me over, which I want to thank you right 24 now for the $65 check or whatever you sent me for today's 25 appearance. I appreciate that. 51 1 Q $65 we gave you? 2 A Well, whatever, $57. It was well worth the eight 3 hours, but, I mean, I appreciate -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's get back to the 5 question, Mr. McAuliffe. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. I saw it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q During the break did you discuss with 9 Mr. Ben-Veniste when you had seen this before? 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. I would direct the 11 witness not to answer anything about conversations with 12 counsel. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask the substance, 14 Your Honor, I just asked the general subject matter. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. I don't think the privilege 16 stands. 17 Did you have such a discussion, yes or no? That's 18 all. 19 THE WITNESS: Restate the question, please? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q During the break that we just took, did you discuss 22 with Mr. Ben-Veniste when you had seen this Appendix A to 23 Exhibit 2 before? 24 A He did not give me a date, no. 25 Q But he told you you had seen it? 52 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever conduct a search for the documents 5 requested in Appendix A? 6 A Yes. 7 Q When was that? 8 A When I received the subpoena. 9 Q And when was that? 10 A I don't recall the specific date. I'm sorry. 11 Q Where did you search for these documents? 12 A Well, it was not much of a search because I have no 13 documents that relate to my activities at the DNC or to 14 Clinton-Gore. It is my standard practice that whenever I 15 leave an entity, I leave all documents, whatever documents 16 there are, at the premises of the location, so I don't have 17 any documents. 18 Q Are you saying you have no documents of any kind 19 that relate to fundraising? 20 A A picture of me and the President, things to that 21 effect I do have, but I don't have any memos or anything as 22 it relates, Larry, to specifics about fundraising and setting 23 things up. No. 24 Q Are you saying that when you left the Democratic 25 National Committee, you didn't take any documents with you? 53 1 A I did not. 2 Q No copies? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Are you saying that you have no copies of any 5 correspondence to and from the White House during the Clinton 6 presidency? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q You have no documents to and from the Democratic 9 National Committee during the Clinton presidency? 10 A No, I may have thank you letters that people have 11 sent me and things -- the President sends me a note or David 12 Wilhelm said "Great event," but nothing of a substantive 13 nature, Larry. 14 Q What is your place of business currently? 15 A My main corporate headquarters is Kissimmee, 16 Florida. 17 Q And what is the name of that corporate 18 headquarters? 19 A American Heritage Homes. 20 Q What is the address in Kissimmee? 21 A It's American Heritage -- I guess an exact 22 address -- I don't know the exact address. It's my corporate 23 headquarters for the home building company which I own. It's 24 my business. 25 Q You spend most of your time in Florida or most of 54 1 your time here? 2 A Back and forth. 3 Q But where do you spend most of your time? 4 A All over. 5 Q What does "all over" mean? 6 A I travel a lot. I spend time here, I spend time in 7 Florida. 8 Q Do you have offices that you work out of in 9 different states? 10 A No, I have an office in Florida and I have an 11 office here which I use out of my home. 12 Q And where is your home? 13 A Old Dominion Drive here in McLean, Virginia. 14 Q And are you saying to me that you have no documents 15 that relate in any way to fundraising in Kissimmee, Florida 16 or your home here in McLean, Virginia? 17 A I have nothing in Florida as it relates to anything 18 to do with Democratic activities at all. You are very 19 broadly saying fundraising. Pictures and things like that I 20 would have, Larry, but beyond that, no. I have no memos from 21 the DNC, to the DNC or anything of that nature. 22 As I stated before emphatically, when I left the 23 Democratic National Committee I did not take any documents 24 with me. When I left the Clinton-Gore campaign, I did not 25 take any documents with me. 55 1 Q Were you given documents by anybody else? 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of the 3 question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In other words, from time to time in the course of 6 your activities, do you receive correspondence from the 7 Democratic National Committee, the White House or others? 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Can we fix a time? Do you mean 9 presently? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, are you still involved in 12 such activities, Mr. McAuliffe? 13 THE WITNESS: No. I have nothing to do with the 14 Democratic National Committee. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to lay a general 16 foundation. This is not a trick question, it's not intended 17 to be overly broad, I'm just trying to get a basic 18 understanding of the fact that you do get corresponded with 19 from time to time by the White House or the DNC, correct? 20 Presently? 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Is that true? 22 THE WITNESS: I get solicited to attend fundraising 23 events by the Democratic National Committee, if that's what 24 you're referring to, but that's about it. I mean, they don't 25 send me -- I get a letter, would you like to give $100. 56 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q I'm just asking for a simple response. You get 3 paper from these entities, sometimes, correct? 4 A I get invitations to fundraisers which, 5 unfortunately, Larry, for them, go right in the trash can. I 6 get a lot of invites. 7 Q Have you been approached by anybody in the 8 Clinton-Gore administration about doing fundraising for the 9 Democrats in the year 2000? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Way beyond the scope. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I don't want to get into 15 the specifics. I'm just -- this testimony is so incredulous 16 I'm just trying to lay a foundation to say that he obviously 17 gets correspondence. That's all I'm trying to do. 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to counsel's 19 characterization. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please don't -- 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Move to strike it, along with the 22 bad grammar. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Your motion will be taken under 24 advisement. 25 Mr. Klayman, please move on. I think his work in 57 1 the future is irrelevant. Even though I understand your 2 point, that he -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: In all due respect, Your Honor, I 4 haven't gotten a direct response to one question today. Not 5 even one. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: And what I get are speeches or I get 8 statements. When I'm asking about Business Leadership Forum 9 that have something to do with this lawsuit, I can't get a 10 direct response. I'm trying the best I can to try to give 11 the witness a way that he can give me a direct response, just 12 to get a basic foundational fact out there. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor -- 14 THE WITNESS: Well, ask a good question. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, please. 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, if I may, the 17 question was put to the witness did he search for documents. 18 He responded. The question was did he retain documents. He 19 responded to those questions. He's now being asked about 20 contemporaneous communication. That is outside the scope and 21 Your Honor has ruled. 22 If you will go on, you will find when you review 23 the records that the answers may not suit you, but your 24 questions have been in fact responded to directly by the 25 witness. 58 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask, Your Honor, maybe we could 2 move this along if we could get some better understanding on 3 how we can proceed, if Mr. McAuliffe can leave the room for a 4 few minutes? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, let's proceed. Why don't you 6 go on to your next question? That line of inquiry is going 7 nowhere, okay? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me see if I can back up. 9 What I'm trying to get into is how he conducted his search 10 for documents. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's see if we can 12 get back to that. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: So to get to the foundation of that, 14 you have to know where the documents -- where he keeps his 15 documents. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Well, I think he's told us 17 that he doesn't -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me ask -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. He's told us -- he's 20 explained to us where he lives, he explained to us where his 21 business is and where he spends his time and then he 22 explained to us the nature of the search that he conducted. 23 But he explained to us, as I understood him, that the nature 24 of the search was a function that he simply doesn't keep this 25 stuff. 59 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me see if I can cut to the 2 chase. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Good. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In the course of your considerable experience at 6 doing fundraising, is it correct that you don't keep paper of 7 any kind, you put nothing on paper, you generate no paper, 8 you receive no paper? 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. Argumentative and 10 mischaracterizes the testimony. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can correct it. Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: When I was at the Democratic 13 National Committee, there were many memos to, from, cc. 14 When I left the Democratic National Committee, Larry, I did 15 not take any documents with me. Whatever documents that may 16 have been generated at the DNC are at the DNC. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q And you left the DNC in 1994. 19 A The end of 1994. 20 Q But after 1994, you continued to play some role 21 in participating in fundraising for the 1996 campaign, 22 correct? 23 A In 1995, as I stated before, for seven or eight 24 months, I served as the national finance chairman of the 25 Clinton-Gore reelection committee. The same procedure held 60 1 forth there. I did not take any documents with me at that 2 point. 3 Q Where did you do your business in 1995 as national 4 chairman of the Clinton-Gore reelect committee? Where did 5 you work? 6 A I believe the address was 2000 K. The Clinton-Gore 7 headquarters. I can't remember the exact address. 8 Q And what were your duties and responsibilities as 9 chairman for that organization? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. That's outside the scope 11 of discovery. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just briefly. Just tell us that 13 and we'll move on. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. You know, I -- 16 Mr. McAuliffe, if you could, please summarize. 17 THE WITNESS: I served as probably the chief 18 cheerleader. Went out and traveled around the country and 19 spoke at meetings where they put people together to try to 20 get them -- encouraged them to be involved in the campaign. 21 I had nothing to do with the day-to-day operations. It was a 22 staff of 50 or 60 people that did the day-to-day operations. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q But you did take a part in Clinton-Gore 25 fundraising, correct? Simple question. 61 1 A I was the finance chairman. 2 Q Right. And you did liaise with the White House and 3 the Democratic National Committee from 2000 K Street, 4 correct? You had contact with those entities, correct? 5 A Sure. Correct. 6 Q And sometimes they would send you documents and 7 sometimes you would send them documents, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Sometimes they would send you e-mail, sometimes you 10 would send them e-mails, correct? 11 A I don't believe we had any e-mail. 12 Q Facsimiles? 13 A I'm sure there were faxes. 14 Q Hand deliveries? 15 A I'm sure of it. 16 Q Mail? 17 A I'm sure of it. 18 Q Okay. Now, where are the documents that were 19 generated when you worked at 2000 K Street today? 20 A Whoever the custodian of records for the 21 Clinton-Gore campaign is. The legal counsel of Clinton-Gore 22 said that all documents have to remain there. 23 Q During the time that you served as chairman of the 24 Clinton-Gore reelect committee -- 25 A Finance chairman. 62 1 Q Finance chairman. I take it people sometimes sent 2 documents to your home in McLean? 3 A I would have to say I don't remember one document 4 ever having been sent to my home. Could have, but I don't 5 recall that. People would generally send them to my office. 6 Q But you did work out of your home from time to 7 time, did you not? 8 A Not then, no. 9 Q You just testified to that. 10 A Not then, at that period. I did not testify to 11 that. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You're mischaracterizing the 13 witness' testimony by confusing dates. Right now, the 14 witness has testified, he has a home office. He did not ask 15 where his business office was contemporaneous with his 16 service as finance chair of Clinton-Gore. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, another speaking 18 objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's all right. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: It's getting out of control. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. We'll talk about it. 22 Mr. McAuliffe, as I understand it, now with this 23 business you have in Florida, do you work out of your home 24 some? 25 THE WITNESS: I've had the office in Florida, sir, 63 1 since the beginning of 1996. I had an office here in 2 Washington, the lease was up several months ago. I did not 3 renew the lease, so I do not have an office here in 4 Washington besides my home. And that is three months old, 5 sir. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I gotcha. 7 I think we're now clear on all depositories 8 Mr. McAuliffe has had, all the homes he's had and the offices 9 he's had in the period in question. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How long did you have the office in Washington that 12 you say you recently gave up? 13 A 1997, 1998, until about three months ago. 14 Q What was the name of that office? 15 A It was just myself. That's where I worked out of. 16 Q And where was that? 17 A It was my own private business. 18 Q Where was that located? 19 A It was 816 Connecticut Ave. 20 Q And was there a name to that business? 21 A It was Terry McAuliffe. It was my business, what I 22 did. 23 Q Was there a suite at 816? 24 A Eleventh floor. 25 Q The Eleventh floor? 64 1 A Yes. I had the -- it was small, they're only 2500 2 square foot floors. 3 Q All right. Did anyone work with you in that suite? 4 A Alecia Dyer worked with me for a short time. She's 5 now in Florida. 6 Q How is that spelled? 7 A D-y-e-r. 8 Q Where is she in Florida? 9 A She's working down in Florida for Jefferson 10 National Title Insurance Company. 11 Q In what city in Florida? 12 A Orlando. 13 Q Anyone else? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Now, during the time that you worked at 816 16 Connecticut Avenue, you were engaged in fundraising 17 activities, correct? 18 A Not really. No. 19 Q Either as a volunteer or -- 20 A I had no responsibilities for anything at that 21 point. No. 22 Q Did you get any paper from the White House or 23 Democratic National Committee or any government agencies at 24 that address? 25 A No. 65 1 Q Did you take any documents when you closed that 2 office and deposit them somewhere else? 3 A No. 4 Q What happened to -- I take it you did get paper 5 during that period. 6 Please, Mr. Ben-Veniste. Please don't interrupt. 7 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I object. I object, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on just a second. If you're 9 going to make a lengthy objection, Mr. McAuliffe can step 10 out. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: It will be a very short 12 objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Mr. McAuliffe, go in 14 this room here, would you? You're going to get some exercise 15 today to get you in shape. 16 THE WITNESS: I need it. Okay. Thank you, sir. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You'll be right there and we'll 18 come and get you in a second. 19 (The witness was excused.) 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Mr. Ben-Veniste? 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Mr. Klayman has jumped from the 22 question did you receive communications from the DNC while 23 you were at home while you had an official position with the 24 DNC to now did you get paper in your private office, not 25 connected in his question to DNC or White House, so the 66 1 question is broad enough to encompass all of his business 2 correspondence and so forth. 3 There seems to be a tendency to do that, to ask a 4 pointed question and then in the next question lose the focus 5 in time and in scope to ask a broader question and then come 6 back and make a conclusion of incredulity that he could not 7 receive paper in his office. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, you know -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let Mr. Ben-Veniste finish, 10 please. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: This only prolongs the 12 proceeding, in my view. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, here's the problem and 14 it's good that the witness is not here, I don't want to 15 offend anybody, but there's a reality here and the reality 16 here is that what we're dealing with is the all-time leading, 17 renowned number one fundraiser for the Democratic Party. 18 Clearly the Republicans have their equivalent. 19 He has a very deep knowledge of what went on. He 20 has been involved in money matters. There are many federal 21 investigations underway, grand jury investigations, there are 22 civil lawsuits underway. 23 Neither Mr. McAuliffe nor Mr. Ben-Veniste, in 24 my view, want us to know whether paper was generated. 25 We're interested in paper that's relevant to this case. But 67 1 they're making this overly complicated because they're very 2 defensive about these other matters and we cannot get a 3 straight response to anything. 4 So, yes, he's right, I'm asking a pointed question 5 and then when I don't get a response to that, I'm just trying 6 to ask a question which he obviously must answer yes just to 7 lay a foundation so we can get it moving along. But they 8 don't want us to get this information because of all these 9 investigations. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Well, I think the record 11 would reflect as follows: Mr. McAuliffe has indicated to him 12 that it was his unwavering practice that whenever he worked 13 for the DNC or the Clinton-Gore election campaign committee 14 or whatever it was called, that on the cessation of those 15 responsibilities he left behind and did not take with him 16 documents that may have been generated, incoming and 17 outgoing, during that period of time. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and the point is -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And that's about all I think we're 20 ever going to get out of Mr. McAuliffe, to be quite blunt. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we may get it, we may -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, if you want to suggest, as 23 you are by your questions, that that's incredible, okay? I 24 have a bit of a problem with you on the grounds that that 25 really isn't the function of a deposition because the record 68 1 does speak for itself and you can certainly make the argument 2 to Judge Lamberth, for example, as you just have, that you 3 really didn't get the cooperation that you believe you are 4 entitled to because the witness didn't tell the truth or 5 whatever. 6 You can make whatever argument you can, but to keep 7 challenging him on the truthfulness of his testimony may be a 8 legitimate technique at the next proceeding. The discovery 9 angle of has, I think, been exhausted. We now know what he 10 did, where he did it and where the depository of the records 11 are. We seem to have reached the limit of that inquiry. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to use this as an 13 opportunity to prove at this point that he's not telling the 14 truth. I frankly don't believe he is. But what I'm trying 15 to do, as we've done in other depositions in this case and 16 other cases, is to find out where he keeps the documents and 17 to find out whether he searched for those documents in those 18 locations and that has turned up big fish, as this Court has 19 said in numerous orders. 20 So I'm not here to accuse him of anything, but I 21 want to find out where he keeps the documents, where he 22 searched, and that's the way you can prove that he's not 23 telling the truth. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But you have done so. We 25 have gone from the DNC to the K Street office to Kissimmee, 69 1 Florida and in each of those instances he has explained 2 the nature of his business in that place and the fact that 3 he did not bring records from the previous employment or 4 involvement with DNC or fundraising activities to the next 5 place. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, he's linking it back to the 7 DNC, but he may have gotten it from other sources. You see, 8 Mr. McAuliffe, even when he wasn't at the DNC, was working 9 with the DNC in unofficial capacities and working with the 10 White House in unofficial capacities. And, in fact, although 11 I don't intend to dwell on it, he is in line to run the 12 campaign in the year 2000 for Vice President Gore. He is the 13 lynch pin of fundraising in the Democratic Party, so he 14 obviously is in contact and he must have documentation. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But if he continues to deny 16 that, Mr. Klayman, we're back where we started from. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand, but I haven't had a 18 chance -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The inquiry into the depositories 20 is a negative question because he will not tell us there's 21 anything in them. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I know, but I haven't had a chance to 23 ask the questions, to put them on the record. This is -- 24 this is similar in a way -- rather than -- and no disrespect 25 intended, I mean, we went through 487 Fifth Amendment claims 70 1 by John Huang, the other way you can deal with these problems 2 is never to answer the question and you don't have to take 3 the Fifth. 4 That's what I'm getting here. I'm not getting 5 answers. So I'm just trying to lay the answers down so I can 6 get them and then we'll move on. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You are getting answers, but the 8 problem, Mr. Klayman, is you don't particularly care for the 9 answers. That's the problem we're having. But the point is 10 we've reached the point where we're trying to get blood out 11 of a rock. 12 Whatever you ask Mr. McAuliffe, he's going to say 13 that he didn't take the records with him and that puts us 14 back at square one. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, but I'd like to at least ask 16 the questions and find out where the locations are -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What kind of questions do you want 18 to ask him? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: -- and did you have documents there, 20 did you search. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you specifically want to take 22 him back to K Street and each of these places? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And ask him those three questions. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 71 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Did he search for documents that 2 he did not take with him? Now, that's a proposition that one 3 might put to somebody with a great deal of extra time on 4 their hands; did you search for documents you did not take 5 with you. 6 Two things, Your Honor, because this is on the 7 record and Mr. Klayman had a proclivity for putting things on 8 the record which in some instances are inaccurate. In 9 connection with making his argument, he has said that there 10 are investigations and civil cases, criminal investigations 11 and civil cases, involving Mr. McAuliffe and that's not true. 12 Neither of those assertions is true. 13 Mr. McAuliffe has cooperated with every inquiry, 14 and there have been many. He has never been a target of 15 any investigation, civil or criminal or congressional. And 16 there are, to my knowledge, no pending civil lawsuits. He's 17 testified about the only one in response to Mr. Klayman's 18 answer. Although it would be a great honor to be designated 19 to run the presidential election in the year 2000, 20 Mr. Klayman is again wrong about whether Mr. McAuliffe has 21 been designated to run the election in the year 2000. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Now, Mr. McAuliffe is 23 to reenter the room, there will be, as I understand it, a 24 limited inquiry as to whether in each of the places he has 25 indicated he has had an office whether he has searched for 72 1 these documents in those places. Just because there is a 2 possibility that despite his policy of not taking them with 3 him, he may have taken some stuff with him. Is that your 4 point? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. And I ask, Your Honor, to 6 strike the remarks. It's not necessary to impugn the 7 integrity of counsel. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, it isn't. It never is. 9 Mr. McAuliffe, please come back in. 10 (The witness returned.) 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What I was trying to get at, Mr. McAuliffe, is that 14 in your home in McLean that from time to time in the course 15 of your activities in trying to assist the Democratic Party, 16 the Clinton-Gore administration, or anything political, that 17 you do receive some paper there and generate some paper 18 there, correct? 19 A That's not correct. I may receive pictures, 20 invitations to events, but nothing beyond that. That's not a 21 correct statement. 22 Q I just asked you whether there was paper. I didn't 23 ask you what it was. You understand that, correct? 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. Argumentative. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's argumentative. Please go on. 73 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you have a computer at your house? 3 A I do. 4 Q Do you ever use that computer? 5 A I keep a Rolodex on it, I keep Quicken for my 6 wife's and my checkbook, things to that nature. 7 Q Do you ever type out any letters or memoranda on 8 that computer? 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. The 10 question is put in the present tense, as to what this witness 11 is now doing with a computer in his home. I object to it on 12 the grounds that it's far beyond the scope of this 13 deposition's purpose. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Have you ever -- I'll change it to 15 have -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Have you ever. 17 THE WITNESS: Have I ever typed a memo on that 18 particular computer? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Memo or a letter? 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: To? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: To anybody. 23 THE WITNESS: Rarely. I mean, my secretary usually 24 would type up my letters. I don't normally type up my own 25 letters, but I'm sure on rare occasions there might have been 74 1 a letter cranked out on it. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And you have a secretary that works with you at 4 that location? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you had a secretary that works with you at 7 that location? 8 A As I stated before, Ms. Dyer worked with me in 1997 9 over at 816 Connecticut. She was not with me during my 10 political activities. 11 Q Did you ever prepare any kind of documents on that 12 computer related to fundraising activities? The computer at 13 your house in McLean. 14 A Not to my knowledge. 15 Q You can't remember? 16 A I don't believe I did, but not to my knowledge. 17 Q Did you ever write a letter out in your own 18 handwriting at your house in McLean related to fundraising? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you communicated since you left the DNC in 21 writing with any donors to the Democratic Party or the 22 Clinton-Gore campaigns? 23 A Have I ever sent them a letter? 24 Q Yes. 25 A I'm sure I've sent birthday letters or 75 1 congratulatory letters on children or something. I'm sure I 2 have. 3 Q And you've kept copies of those letters, correct? 4 A No. Sorry. 5 Q Have you ever sent them any letters regarding 6 contributions to the Democratic Party since you've let the 7 Democratic Party? 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of the 9 question. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, it's overruled. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Since you left the Democratic 12 Party? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, since you -- you're 14 right, Mr. Ben-Veniste. He hasn't left the party. 15 Mr. Ben-Veniste is correct. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Since you left the Democratic National Committee, 18 have you ever prepared letters or correspondence to donors to 19 the Democratic Party or the Clinton-Gore campaigns? 20 A For back then or today? I don't understand the 21 time period. 22 Q Up to the point that you left the Democratic 23 National Committee. 24 A While I was at the Democratic National Committee? 25 Q No. After you left. 76 1 A After I left the Democratic Party? 2 Q Up to today. 3 A Up to today? 4 Q Did you ever prepare anything in writing which was 5 sent to Democrat donors, to the party or the Clinton-Gore 6 campaigns? 7 A I'm sure there might have been invitations to 8 events where I may have scribbled on the invitation hope you 9 can help us. I'm sure of it. I can't give you a specific 10 instance today. 11 Q And you made copies of those communications. 12 A No, I did not make copies. Larry, I have no copies 13 of any correspondence as it relates to fundraising. I'm 14 sorry. I don't. I can say it so many times. I don't. Now, 15 we can sit here until 5:00. I don't have them. 16 Q Have you ever destroyed copies of any documents 17 related to fundraising from the point you left the Democratic 18 National Committee to the present? 19 A Don't believe I've ever destroyed any documents. 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Can we clarify -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on a second. 22 Mr. McAuliffe, step out again. I'm sorry. 23 (The witness was excused.) 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, if documents is so 25 broad as to refer to solicitations with the witness has 77 1 already said he's thrown in the trash, then I suppose that 2 would constitute destroying a quote document. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then let him say that. You 4 don't have to help him, Mr. Ben-Veniste. 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: He's already said it. That's the 6 problem. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. All right. 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You didn't listen when he said 9 it. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Come in, Mr. McAuliffe. Sorry to 11 keep doing this to you. 12 (The witness returned.) 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Please, ask your next 14 question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you have any documents in response to Exhibit A? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q And where did you search for documents in response 19 to Exhibit A? 20 A First of all, I knew I had no documents at all. 21 Q Did you search? 22 A I don't have a file that says -- 23 Q So I take it you did no search. 24 A I would have nothing to search. I have no files, 25 I have no documents. What I have are pictures, credentials 78 1 from a convention that I saved, memorabilia type items, 2 nothing that would be applicable to that subpoena, sir. 3 Q Since 1992, who has worked with you in a 4 secretarial or support capacity? 5 A Nobody in 1992. At the Democratic National 6 Committee and Clinton-Gore, Jason Mackintosh was my 7 assistant. 8 Q And where is he located today? 9 A He's in San Francisco. 10 Q Who does he work for? 11 A Montgomery Securities. 12 Q Next? Who else has worked for you in a secretarial 13 or support capacity? 14 A That's it besides Alecia. 15 Q Alecia would know about your document retention 16 practices? 17 A Yes. Mm-hmm. So would Mr. Mackintosh. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 19 reporter to mark as Exhibit 1. 20 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 21 1 was previously marked for 22 identification.) 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Incidently, Your Honor, I know you've 24 been very, I think, understanding with regard to time in 25 these depositions. This has taken a lot of time, obviously. 79 1 We hope that the inordinate amount of time does not in any 2 way affect our ability to ask questions. I just wanted to 3 put that on the record. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we shall see. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q This is a two-page document and it's Exhibit 1. 7 On the first page, it's Business Leadership Forum. It bears 8 Bates number 03AKO321. And on the second page, there is a 9 brochure, DNC Business Leadership Forum, Events and 10 Membership Requirements, "Bi-Annual Economic Trade Missions" 11 listed second. 12 Have you seen this document before? 13 A I don't recall it, but I'm sure I've seen it many 14 times. 15 Q Did you authorize its production when you were 16 chairman of the Business Leadership Forum? 17 A I didn't authorize anything. That was not my 18 responsibility. It was handled on the staff level, sir. 19 Q Were these the requirements of annual membership as 20 listed on page 2 when you were chairman of the Business 21 Leadership Forum of the Democratic National Committee? 22 A I would have no reason to believe that they were 23 not. The only point I'd have is the date this was generated. 24 I see Richard Sullivan was the director. I'm not sure when 25 he came in. The director when I was there Jane -- another 80 1 woman, so I'm not sure if this was generated after I'd left 2 it. I just don't know the date. 3 Q Well, look at point 2 on the second page, 4 "Bi-Annual Economic Trade Missions. Beginning in 1994, BLF 5 members will be invited to join Democratic Party leadership 6 as they travel abroad to examine current and developing 7 political and economic issues." 8 A See, I'd left by then. 9 Q Does that refresh your recollection? 10 A That makes me think I've already left as chairman. 11 I was gone. I was there in 1993. 12 Q Now, when you were there as chairman in 1993, did 13 the Business Leadership Forum also offer bi-annual economic 14 trade missions as a perk for membership? 15 A I do not recall. 16 Q Do you know of any bi-annual economic trade 17 missions ever undertaken as described here by the Democratic 18 National Committee? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Can you list them for us? 21 A I believe there was one, they went to Paris. The 22 group went to Paris. 23 Q And when was that? 24 A '94, I believe. It might have been '93, but I 25 believe it was '94. 81 1 Q Was that after you left? 2 A I believe so. 3 Q And did you yourself participate on that trade 4 mission? 5 A I was the highest ranking Democratic official on 6 the trip. Mr. Wilhelm was supposed to go and at the last 7 minute had to cancel. 8 Q Do you know of anybody else who participated on 9 that trade trip? 10 A Besides me? I think I was the only DNC official. 11 There was probably five or six staff on the trip. 12 Q Are you aware of any other trade missions with the 13 Democratic National Committee undertook? 14 A I don't think they did any more. 15 Q That was the only one? 16 A I believe so. 17 Q And that was in early 1994? 18 A Could have been. 19 Q Do you know whether the Democratic National 20 Committee ceased using this brochure that I just listed which 21 is part of Exhibit 1, page 2, after the early part of 1994? 22 A I have no knowledge. 23 Q Do yu know whether the Democratic National 24 Committee issued brochures after this where they made 25 reference to trade missions? 82 1 A I have no idea. 2 Q Do you know of anyone who would have knowledge of 3 this fact or lack thereof? 4 A No, I'm sorry. I don't know who prepared the 5 brochures. Sorry. 6 Q Did you work with Harold Ickes on the Business 7 Leadership Forum? 8 A I don't believe -- no. I don't believe he came in 9 until 1994, to the best of my recollection. 10 Q What did he come into in 1994? 11 A He came to the White House, I think, in 1994. To 12 the best of my knowledge, I never dealt with Harold at the 13 Business Leadership Forum. 14 Q Did there come a point in time when you became 15 aware that the Democratic National Committee was offering 16 participation on trade missions conducted by the U.S. 17 Department of Commerce in exchange for membership to the 18 Managing Trustee Program? 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of the 20 question because it assumes a fact -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Could you repeat the 22 question, Madam Reporter? I'm sorry. 23 (The record was played back by the court reporter.) 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Objection overruled. 25 Thank you, Madam Reporter. 83 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Do you know whether or not donors to the Democratic 4 Party or the Clinton campaign ever went on trade missions 5 conducted by the Department of Commerce? 6 A I'm sure they did, as did many business people from 7 all over the country, both Republican and Democrat. 8 Q How did you become aware that? 9 A Publicized in the newspapers. They would come back 10 and announce great economic trips and deals that were closed 11 and who may have done a business deal and that was in the 12 press. 13 Q Now, you testified that you had left the 14 chairmanship of the Business Leadership Forum by January of 15 1994, correct? 16 A I was moving in to become finance chairman and the 17 election some time March of '94, so I was transitioning into 18 that. 19 Q So you were gone by March of 1994. 20 A Gone -- 21 Q From the prior post as chairman of Business 22 Leadership Forum. 23 A I'm not sure when Tim -- I believe it was Tim 24 Collins succeeded me, I'm not exactly sure, Larry, at what 25 exact time he moved into that position. I was done with the 84 1 day-to-day stuff, I assume I was still helpful to them if 2 they wanted renewals or something to that effect, but -- 3 Q But you weren't chairman any more. 4 A I'm not sure of the exact time I said I'm no longer 5 chairman and became finance chairman of the -- you have to be 6 elected to be finance chairman of the party. Some time in 7 March I was elected finance chairman of the party. 8 Q At that point, you no longer were chairman of the 9 Business Leadership Forum. 10 A When I became finance chairman, Larry, somebody 11 became chairman of the Business Leadership Forum. I believe 12 it was Mr. Tim Collins. 13 Q When was the first time you met Hillary Clinton? 14 A I have no idea. 15 Q You knew her before 1992, correct? 16 A I've Hillary at different events over the course of 17 the years. I just can't put a time on it. I didn't know her 18 well, but I knew her. 19 Q Have you ever discussed with Mrs. Clinton offering 20 various perks in exchange for campaign contributions to the 21 Democratic Party? 22 A Would you define what you mean by perks? 23 Q Benefits. 24 A I don't recall specifically having conversations 25 with Hillary per se. She may have gotten copies of memos. I 85 1 just don't know. She may have seen brochures. I don't know 2 an answer to that. When you send something over, you don't 3 know if she would see it or not see it. 4 Q Well, did you ever have conversations with her in 5 person where you discussed with her the benefits that one 6 could derive by being a member to the Democratic Party 7 Managing Trustee Program in exchange for making a campaign 8 contribution? 9 A Could have had discussions, I don't recall a 10 specific conversation with Hillary. 11 Q What do you mean by could have had conversations? 12 Do you think that you did? 13 A She may have been in DNC meetings where things were 14 discussed and looked at the brochures or whatever. I just 15 can't put a time or place on it. 16 Q When did these DNC meetings take place? 17 A I can't recall one specific one, but there were 18 meetings that took place as people prepared budgets and other 19 things and I can't recall who or who was not sitting in 20 meetings. 21 Q What years did these meetings take place? 22 A I assume they took place -- they take place every 23 year. I assume '93, '94. 24 Q '95? 25 A Well, not for the DNC, but for Clinton-Gore, she 86 1 was in different meetings that I was in. Absolutely. 2 Q 1996? 3 A I was out in 1996. 4 Q Well, are you aware of her participating in 5 meetings where these things were discussed? 6 A No. No. 7 Q And where did these meetings take place? 8 A I can't recall the specific place. I mean, I can't 9 recall the specific meetings as they relate to preparing the 10 DNC, but I believe that David Wilhelm, the chairman would go 11 down, I believe he had regularly scheduled meetings at the 12 White House with people down there. I was not invited or a 13 participant to those, but I believe there were meetings that 14 occurred down there. 15 Q And who would generally attend those meetings with 16 Mr. Wilhelm and Mrs. Clinton? 17 A I think some of David's staff. Those were not 18 meetings I was invited to. 19 Q There were meetings, however, that you were invited 20 to, correct? 21 A I've been invited to different meetings over the 22 course of the years, yes. 23 Q And where did those meetings take place with Mrs. 24 Clinton when the benefits to Democratic Party membership were 25 discussed? 87 1 A I can't speak of any as it relates to the DNC. I 2 do remember we did have a meeting as it related to the 3 Clinton-Gore campaign and when we would start and when we 4 would open up that the First Lady was present at. 5 Q And where did that meeting take place? 6 A I believe that was in the Map Room of the White 7 House. 8 Q And approximately when did that meeting occur? 9 A February, March of 1995. 10 Q And who was present at the meeting? 11 A To the best of my recollection, the President was 12 there, the Vice President. I wouldn't swear that the Vice 13 President was there. I believe that Hillary was there and 14 probably Leon Panetta, the chief of staff. Probably Harold 15 Ickes. 16 I can't remember who else would have been 17 there, but I would have gone through the plan, Larry, that 18 we're about to unveil for the campaign and discussed when 19 did we want to open the campaign. You know, issues of 20 the campaign of that sort. But it wasn't benefits or perk 21 type things, it was more when we were going to open and so 22 forth. 23 Q Was Alexis Herman there? 24 A Could have been. I don't recall. 25 Q Was John Podesta there? 88 1 A I don't believe John was. 2 Q Was John Huang there? 3 A I have never been in a meeting with John Huang. 4 Q Was Dave Wilhelm there? 5 A No, this was a Clinton-Gore. I know Laura 6 Hartigan, who was the finance director was there. I don't 7 believe David was there. 8 Q Was Christopher Dodd there? 9 A Could have been. I don't see why he would have 10 been, but could have been, clearly. 11 Q Don Fowler? 12 A No, this was more of a Clinton-Gore meeting? 13 Q Marvin Rosen? 14 A Not to my knowledge, because it was Clinton-Gore 15 meeting, not a DNC meeting. 16 Q Okay. And what was discussed at that meeting? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q At that meeting, did you discuss the benefits 21 of Democratic Party membership if an individual contributed? 22 A No. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 THE WITNESS: No. 89 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q At that meeting, did you discuss whether or not 3 certain donors could go on trade missions if they made a 4 contribution to the Clinton-Gore campaign or the Democratic 5 Party? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled 8 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did there come a point in time when you did have a 11 meeting in the presence of Mrs. Clinton or any of the people 12 that you've just mentioned, the President and Vice President, 13 Leon Panetta, Harold Ickes, perhaps Alexis Herman, perhaps 14 John Podesta and others, where you discussed donors getting 15 certain benefits in exchange for contributions to the 16 Democratic Party or Clinton-Gore campaign? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you ever had such a discussion with anybody? 19 A Well, there are no benefits to the Clinton-Gore. 20 We did a series of 15 fundraisers around the country. I 21 mean, there are no real benefits per se, so there would be no 22 need for a discussion of them. 23 We had a finance board of people who agreed to 24 raise 50,000 for the Clinton-Gore campaign, 50 $1000 checks, 25 and we had a kick-off meeting in June. That really was about 90 1 the extent of it. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 3 reporter to mark as Exhibit -- 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 3. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: 3. 6 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 7 3 was marked for identification.) 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Klayman. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what was that, Larry? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 3 before? 12 A I have no recollection of ever seeing this. This 13 was, as you can tell, long after I had left the DNC. Don 14 Fowler was chairman. 15 Q After you left the DNC, you continued to 16 participate in political activities, did you not? 17 A I was the finance chairman of the Clinton-Gore 18 campaign. You bet I did. 19 Q Right. And tell me what your duties and 20 responsibilities were as finance chairman of the Clinton-Gore 21 campaign. 22 A You just asked me that 20 minutes ago. 23 Q No, I didn't. 24 A Yes, you did. I mean, you just asked that 25 question. 91 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't get into it in any depth, 2 Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Try not quarrel with him, 4 Mr. McAuliffe. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't get into it in a depth. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please, for my sake, please answer 8 it again. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. You serve as the chief 10 cheerleader. You go around the country at warm-up 11 meetings and try to get people excited. No day-to-day 12 responsibilities. That was run by the staff. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But you are the ultimate person in charge, correct? 15 As finance chairman. 16 A No, I'm not the ultimate person in charge. I would 17 say that I had general oversight duties. As I say, it was a 18 volunteer, not a full-time capacity job in the sense that you 19 have a staff who run it, you have a legal counsel office 20 involved. I had no decision making authorities. I could not 21 hire, I could not fire, I had none of those decision making 22 authorities under my control. 23 Q And just to firm it up, where were you working when 24 you were finance chairman? 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Asked and answered. Asked and 92 1 answered again. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Was it over on K Street? 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Just go on. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Mm-hmm. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q 2000 K Street? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. And you would get correspondence from the 10 DNC and the White House in your capacity as finance chair 11 A I don't believe I got correspondence from the DNC. 12 At the time, you know, you are almost -- 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Just answer the question. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Competing. I don't know if I 15 got any correspondence from the DNC. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Now, what were the duties and responsibilities of 18 the people that worked under you? 19 A All the -- 20 Q Yes. 21 A Well, there's a finance director who runs the 22 day-to-day operation. It's scheduling. It's putting the 23 events on. It's, you know, a thousand people come to an 24 event, you've got to feed them, you know, you've got to deal 25 with all the FEC information. 93 1 Q And who was that? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 THE WITNESS: Laura Hartigan. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Okay. Who else worked with you? 7 A There were 40 or 50 people, staff people, there. 8 Q Well, I'm talking about the supervisors. 9 A Laura was the finance director. The deputy finance 10 director was Rick -- I'll come back to it. There was a 11 deputy finance director. I can't recall his last name at 12 this time, but it will come to me. And then we had a lot of 13 young people who went around the country and did the events, 14 actually stayed in a city. Advance type -- fundraising 15 advance type people. 16 Q How long did you stay in that post? 17 A As I stated before, we opened April 14th and we 18 finished up November 14th of that year. 19 Q Of 1996? 20 A 1995. 21 Q Okay. And what, if anything, did you do after you 22 ended in August of 1995 in a political capacity leading up 23 to -- 24 A August of 1995? 25 Q Yes. 94 1 A I just said November of -- 2 Q November of '95. Leading up to the election in 3 1996. 4 A Went off and bought a home building company the end 5 of 1995 and pretty much did my own business. Had a very 6 limited scope. If called upon to ask people for money, I 7 would do that, but I had no title, role or supervision for 8 the party at all. At the Clinton-Gore in September, they 9 named about ten honorary chairs. I state honorary, no direct 10 responsibilities. I was one of the ten or twelve of those 11 honorary chairs of the campaign. 12 Helped with some business outreach, not 13 fundraising, but trying to get CEOs who had been very 14 successful under the President's tutelage with the economy, 15 to try to get some of those people to endorse us. 16 Q Did you participate in any other way in political 17 activities in 1996? 18 A As I just stated, that was generally what I did. 19 Q Did you ever attend fundraising events at the White 20 House in 1996? 21 A What do you mean fundraising events? There were no 22 fundraising events at the White House in 1996. 23 Q I'm sorry. Donor maintenance. 24 A I did not. No. We had events in 1995. 25 Q Did you ever attend coffees in the White House in 95 1 1996? 2 A In 1966? I don't believe I attended -- no. 3 Q Did you attend coffees in 1995 in the White House? 4 A You bet. 5 Q Was John Huang at any of these coffees? 6 A No. 7 Q Now, in the course of all of your activities, you 8 now have taken us up to the elections in 1996, correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Q Did you ever have a meeting or discussion or 11 communication of any kind with anyone about the benefits of 12 membership to the Democratic Party, what would be provided if 13 you became a member, a DNC managing trustee? 14 A At what time period, Larry? 15 Q Leading up to the elections in 1996. 16 A You mean 1992, 1993, all the way -- the entire time 17 period? 18 Q Right. 19 A Sure. Absolutely. 20 Q All right. Let's take the period from 1994, 1995 21 and 1996. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Did you ever have any such discussions or 24 communications of any kind? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 96 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 2 MS. BRASWELL: Anything past 1994 is outside the 3 scope of discovery. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: When I was finance chairman, I'm sure 6 they sent many pieces of correspondence out under my name, 7 that the different staff people would want me to send letters 8 to different people on their behalf and so forth. I'm sure 9 many brochures were mailed out under my signature. 10 As I say, there's a lot of paper generated that the 11 Democratic National Committee, so, sure, I'm sure a lot in 12 1994. 1995, I don't believe any for the Democratic National 13 Committee. After I went over to the Clinton-Gore in the 14 sense that I was finance chairman over there and almost was a 15 competing organization. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q How about 1996? 18 A Sure. The party continued to ask me if I would 19 help with certain people and so forth. You bet. 20 Q Now, during that period, were you aware of any 21 foreign trade missions that participants to the Democratic 22 National Committee's Managing Trustee Program could 23 participate on, other than Paris that you have mentioned. 24 A Paris is the only one to my knowledge. 25 Q You were aware, however, during that period of time 97 1 that the Department of Commerce and the Department of Energy 2 were taking business men on trade missions, correct? 3 A I knew that from the press. 4 Q Are you saying you've never had any communication 5 with anyone about trade missions at the Department of 6 Commerce or Energy Department? 7 A I certainly could have. I don't recall any 8 specific time. If someone had called and requested that a 9 recommendation go over, I could have been involved in that, 10 but I had absolutely no decision making authority as it 11 related to anybody going on it. 12 Q Well, who called and requested a recommendation to 13 go over during that period of time? 14 A I don't recall anyone specifically. 15 Q But there were people that did. 16 A I'm sure people called the staff that headed these 17 different donor councils. The staff dealt with the donors on 18 a day-to-day basis. 19 Q At the Democratic National Committee. 20 A Correct. 21 Q And the people who called would have been donors, 22 correct? 23 A Generally in the finance division, we'd have the 24 donors. The political division probably got calls, too, but 25 those were political people. 98 1 Q So the answer is yes. 2 A Yes. You bet. 3 Q And the Democratic National Committee would then 4 have contacted the Commerce or Energy Departments and said 5 we'd like these people to be included on trade missions. 6 A I don't know if they ever did that. I have no 7 knowledge of that. 8 Q But it was your understanding that that's what they 9 did. 10 A It is not my understanding. 11 Q It's your understanding that there was nothing to 12 prohibit an individual at the Democratic National Committee 13 to call and recommend somebody. 14 A I don't believe they did it, but I don't know what 15 the rule is. 16 Q Part and parcel to these recommendations, it 17 wouldn't have been prohibited to send something in writing 18 over to the Commerce Department to recommend someone for a 19 trade mission, correct? 20 A I don't believe it would have been, no. 21 Q It would have been certainly appropriate as you 22 know it to be for the Democratic National Committee to do 23 that. 24 A Sure. 25 Q Were you aware during this period of time of any 99 1 written literature offering to donors to the Democratic 2 National Committee or Clinton-Gore campaign that they could 3 go on a Commerce Department trade mission? 4 A No. 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Asked and answered at least three 6 times. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You never saw anything like that. 11 A No, sir. 12 Q Did you ever see any correspondence which stated or 13 even suggested that for a contribution a donor could go on a 14 Commerce Department trade mission? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know whether or not Harold Ickes played any 17 role in coordinating donors going on trade missions at the 18 Commerce Department? 19 A I have no knowledge of that. 20 Q Did you ever discuss going on a trade mission with 21 Harold Ickes? 22 A For me personally to go? 23 Q Anyone. 24 A No. Not myself or anybody. 25 Q Same question with regard to Alexis Herman. 100 1 A No. Don't believe I did. 2 Q Same question with regard to Hillary Clinton. 3 A I don't believe I had any conversations with 4 Hillary about trade missions at all. 5 Q Did you have any conversations with James Hackney 6 about trade missions? Do you know who James Hackney is? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Did you ever have any conversations with Ron Brown, 9 the late Commerce secretary -- 10 A No. 11 Q -- about taking -- I'm not finished with my 12 question. 13 A You said Ron Brown, so -- 14 Q Well, I know -- 15 A I knew who Ron was. 16 Q I've got to ask the question, Mr. McAuliffe. 17 I don't know how you can answer no if I don't ask the 18 question. 19 A Okay. 20 Q Did you ever have any -- you know who Ron Brown 21 was, correct? 22 A Yes. You bet. 23 Q Okay. You worked closely with Ron Brown. 24 A I did not. 25 Q When you were at the Democratic National Committee, 101 1 correct? 2 A I did not have any meetings with Ron as it related 3 to the Democratic National Committee. He was chairman, I was 4 not involved. That's an incorrect statement. 5 Q Have you ever discussed any fundraising activities 6 with Ron Brown? 7 A Don't believe I have. No. 8 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Ron Brown 9 about his taking donors on Commerce Department trade 10 missions? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you ever have any discussions with anyone at 13 the Commerce Department about taking donors on Commerce 14 Department trade missions? 15 A Could have, I just don't to my recollection 16 remember having any conversations. 17 Q Do you know Melissa Moss? 18 A Very well. 19 Q How did you get to know Melissa Moss? 20 A Melissa had been involved -- I believe she was Ron 21 Brown's finance director at the party when Ron was chairman, 22 which I believe was '88 to '92. Some time period in there. 23 So I knew her through party-related activities. 24 Q And how is it that you came to know her very well? 25 A She was involved -- not very well in the sense I 102 1 knew her very well. She was involved the party and I'd see 2 her around town at different events and so forth. 3 Q When she was at the Democratic National Committee, 4 she was involved in fundraising, correct? 5 A Correct. I believe she was the finance director. 6 Q And you are aware that when Ron Brown became 7 Secretary of Commerce that she went with him to the Commerce 8 Department. 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you are aware that when she went to the 11 Commerce Department from the DNC, she took lists of donors 12 with her. 13 A I have no knowledge of that. 14 Q She told you that, didn't she? 15 A I don't believe she did. No. I have no 16 recollection of that. 17 Q Did others tell you that she took lists of donors 18 from the DNC when she went to work at the Commerce 19 Department? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever discuss with Melissa Moss whether or 22 not donors were taken on Commerce Department trade trips, 23 Democratic donors? 24 A I do not have a recollection of having that 25 conversation. Could have, but have no recollection of it. 103 1 Q What leads you to believe that you could have? 2 A I have no recollection of it, but I would not 3 universally say not because someone may have contacted a 4 staff person and said they may want to go and a 5 recommendation could have gone, and a recommendation could 6 have gone. I just have no specific recollection of it. 7 Q Who was the staff person that in the ordinary 8 course of things would have been contacted? 9 A There were ten people who dealt with all the 10 different donor councils. Could be any one of them. Could 11 be any one of the staff who interacted -- I mean, the staff 12 dealt with and interacted with donors on a daily basis. 13 Q Who are those ten people? 14 A I'm not going to be able to remember them all. 15 Q As best you can. 16 A If I had a staff list, it would be helpful. 17 Q As best you can. 18 A I believe Ari Swiller did the -- 19 Q Can you spell their names? 20 A Swiller, S-w-i-l-l-e-r. 21 Q And what did Ari do? 22 A He was the Trustee or Managing Trustee Program. 23 Q DNC Managing Trustee Program? 24 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 25 Q And what was his title? 104 1 A I don't know. 2 Q He was the head of it? 3 A Director, I think, or something like that. 4 Q Okay. And who worked under him on that program? 5 A He had an assistant. I can't recall who it is. 6 Q Male or female? 7 A I don't recall. 8 Q Where is Ari Swiller today? 9 A He's in Los Angeles. 10 Q And who does he work for? 11 A He works for a company called Yukipa? 12 Q Yukipa? How is that spelled? 13 A I don't know. It's Y-u something. 14 Q A Japanese company? 15 A I don't know. I think it's an American company. 16 Q Okay. And what do they do? 17 A I don't know. You'd have to ask Ari. 18 Q Do you know what part of Los Angeles he lives in? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know where he lives in Los Angeles? 21 A No. 22 Q Yukipa? 23 A Mm-hmm. 24 Q With a U? 25 A I think there's a plant, yukipa, isn't there? 105 1 Y-u-c something. I think there's a plant. 2 Q Do you know whether that company ever went on a 3 trade mission? 4 A No. 5 Q Yukipa? 6 A Un-uh. 7 Q Okay. That's Ari Swiller. Who else? 8 A Laura Hartigan was the finance director. 9 Q She dealt with -- 10 A She was in charge of the whole staff. 11 Q All right. Who else? 12 A Jane Hearst was the Business Leadership Forum 13 person, director. 14 Q How is Hearst spelled? 15 A H-e-a-r-s-t. 16 Q Okay. Where is Ms. Hartigan today? 17 A Los Angeles. 18 Q And who does she work for? 19 A I think she's a private consultant out there. 20 Q Do you know where she lives in the Los Angeles 21 area? 22 A Never been to her house. Un-uh. She lives in 23 L.A., I know that much. 24 Q Okay. Ms. Hearst? 25 A She lives in New York, I believe. 106 1 Q And what does she do today? 2 A I have no idea. 3 Q Do you have the phone numbers for all these people 4 currently? 5 A I would have Mr. Swiller's and Mrs. Hartigan's. 6 Q Do you have their addresses? 7 A Probably. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, subject to your approval, 9 we would ask for those. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, if you would be so 11 kind? 12 THE WITNESS: It would be an honor to do it. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Who else? 15 A Richard Sullivan was there. I believe he was the 16 deputy finance director. 17 Q And he's still in the Washington area, right? 18 A No, he's in North Carolina. 19 Q And who is he working for? 20 A Charlotte. 21 Q Okay. Do you know who he works for? 22 A He's an attorney down there. I think he's -- I 23 can't remember the name of the law firm. 24 Q Okay. I'll have to keep a running request for all 25 these people. Go on. You can continue. 107 1 A Obviously Jason Mackintosh was there. 2 Q And what did he do? 3 A He was my assistant. 4 Q Where is he today? 5 A Montgomery Securities in San Francisco. 6 Q Okay. Who else? 7 A Jen Sculley worked at the -- 8 Q Jennifer? 9 A Jennifer Sculley. Yes. 10 Q And what did she do? 11 A She married Rick, if I can remember Rick's last 12 name, but she married Rick last year, I'm told. 13 Q And where is she located? 14 A I don't know. I think New York, but I wouldn't 15 swear to that. 16 Q And Rick worked at the DNC as well? 17 A No, I don't think he did. He came into the 18 Clinton-Gore campaign. I don't believe he did. 19 Q What did he do? 20 A What did Rick do? He was Laura Hartigan's deputy. 21 Q Okay. Who else? 22 A That's all I can think of off the top of my head. 23 I mean, there are a lot of different people who worked on the 24 road and so forth. 25 Q And these are all people who would have provided 108 1 donor names to the Commerce Department if the donors had 2 requested it? 3 A No, I'm not saying that at all. 4 Q What are you saying? 5 A You're saying who dealt with the donors. I'm 6 telling you who dealt with the donors. 7 Q Okay. And these were the people that managed the 8 DNC Managing Trustee Program? 9 A No. Laura was the finance director, James the 10 Business Leadership Forum, they all had different -- there 11 were different donor councils. They were directors of the 12 different donor councils. 13 Q But these people, if indeed membership in the 14 Managing Trustee Program of the Democratic Party provided a 15 seat on a Commerce Department trade mission, if that was the 16 case, I'm not asking you to admit whether it was or it 17 wasn't, these people would have that knowledge. 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: That is an outrageous question 19 and I object to it, Your Honor. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not outrageous. It's quite a 21 good question, if I might say so myself. 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, if they were masked 23 hoodlums interested in kidnapping top business executives, 24 then you can propound the question that way. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Ben-Veniste -- 109 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: It's absurd to propound a 2 question like that. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What Mr. Klayman is suggesting to 4 you, as you know, this line of inquiry he is making here in 5 terms of that. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What he wants to know is if you 8 explain to us there was contact by a donor and that donor 9 expressed some interest in going on a trade mission, it is 10 more likely than not the contact would be with one of these 11 people you've just identified for us. 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: That's a different question. 14 THE WITNESS: That's a different question. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Conversely, if there were inquiry 16 from someone else as to who would be the kind of people that 17 might be interested in going on trade missions, more likely 18 than not, inquiry would be made again of these -- 19 THE WITNESS: Correct. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know whether or not the DNC kept a database 23 at any time which lists whether or not donors went on 24 Commerce Department trade trips? 25 A No knowledge. 110 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 2 reporter to mark as Exhibit -- 3 THE COURT REPORTER: 4. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: 4. 5 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 6 4 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q This is a memorandum which comes from DNC files, 9 Bates number 4582169. It's to Bob, Ari, Fran, Laura, 10 Richard, Stephen and Jay from Eric, trade mission to Russia, 11 January 13, 1994. 12 On that date, you were the chairman of the 13 Democratic Leadership Forum, correct? 14 A I had announced I was resigning, I had left, but I 15 could have been still around. Sure. 16 Q Okay. And as such you were still at the Democratic 17 National Committee at this time, correct? 18 A Physically, I was not there any more no. I had 19 finished up. 20 Q Physically, where were you? 21 A At that point, I could have been at my house or 22 wherever, but physically I was done. 23 Q But you were still in contact with them. 24 A Yes. Absolutely. Yes. 25 Q Okay. 111 1 A Yes. 2 Q Now, look down to the fourth paragraph. This 3 deals with a trade mission to Russia by the Commerce 4 Department, it's one of the trade missions that's part of 5 this lawsuit. 6 A Okay. 7 Q And it says, "Ari will use the 'Belgium trade 8 mission list' as a base of names, to be augmented by 9 additional names that he feels are relevant to Russian trade. 10 It was suggested that he contact Reta Lewis to determine 11 which names on the Belgium list will be included in that 12 delegation, so that they are not also submitted to Commerce 13 for the Russian delegation. Fran will get in touch with 14 Richard to develop a small list of BLF members that we might 15 want to submit for this trade mission. Bob will be the point 16 contact with Commerce, as I will not be in the office on 17 Friday afternoon to deliver the list to Sally." 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 20 you've ever seen this document before? 21 A I had not seen this document before besides 22 discussion with my counsel. 23 Q Excuse me? You discussed this with your counsel? 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He volunteered it. 112 1 You lost me there, Mr. McAuliffe. Before it was 2 handed to you, had you ever seen this document before today? 3 THE WITNESS: My counsel could have documents that 4 had been provided to him, sir. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But other than that, there 6 may have been a point -- do you have a recollection of having 7 this document in your hand at some point when you were in the 8 same room with Mr. Ben-Veniste recently? Do you remember 9 that, Mr. McAuliffe? 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, repeat the question, 11 Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you recall being in a room with 13 Mr. Ben-Veniste and looking at this document at the same 14 time? Don't ask him. To the best of your recollection. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't want to get into 16 attorney-client issues here. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Fine. If you want to 18 discuss it with Mr. Ben-Veniste -- 19 THE WITNESS: And I'd like the counsel of my 20 attorney. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please do so. Yes. Go right in 22 the room there. You can always do that, Mr. McAuliffe. You 23 don't need my permission. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record 25 at 12:09. 113 1 (A brief recess was taken.) 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record 3 at 12:09. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q So I take it you have seen this document before. 6 A This document as well as two other documents were 7 shown to me by my counsel. 8 Q And what were those two other documents? 9 A It was a memo -- a letter draft or a memo draft 10 from me to Melissa Moss. 11 Q And what was the third document? 12 A This one. 13 Q Oh, there were just two documents? 14 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Three. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What was the third document? 17 A There was a memo, a letter and this. The memo and 18 letter said the same thing. It was an unsigned memo and 19 unsigned letter. 20 Q Where did you get those documents? 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: He just answered the question. I 22 showed them to him. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Right. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 114 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Put a question. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I want to know, Your Honor, why 3 these weren't produced. 4 MR. BEN-VENISTE: They weren't his documents. I 5 showed them to him. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, they're in his custody, 7 possession and control. 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: No, they aren't. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who is they? All right. We don't 10 have to -- we'll discuss that at the luncheon recess when the 11 witness is not present. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'd like to have them. Maybe 13 if Mr. Ben-Veniste agrees to produce them, then we can moot 14 the issue. 15 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You have them. They're all 16 documents that have been discussed in depositions here. 17 That's why I have them, because it's my job to help prepare 18 the witness. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Where did you get them? 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: When you take my deposition, you 21 can ask me that. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I ask if he's 23 agreeing? I'd love to. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's move on. Why 25 don't you ask Mr. McAuliffe -- 115 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If the judge rules that you can, 2 then you will. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The source of the documents for 4 Mr. McAuliffe's observation I don't think is important. What 5 is important is his knowledge of them and let's return to 6 that issue. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me tell you why it is 8 important, Your Honor, and you, Your Honor, hit on it in some 9 recent orders. If there's an effort here to prevent the 10 truth from coming out, it's important to know who was part of 11 that and where it came from. And I don't see that it's 12 damning in and of itself just simply to say where these 13 documents were obtained. Were they obtained from the 14 Democratic National Committee? That's a legitimate question. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But why would the -- let's assume 16 for the sake of the argument that the Democratic National 17 Committee did make them available to Mr. Ben-Veniste so he 18 could prepare his client for the deposition. Why would that 19 be part of an effort to "suppress the truth"? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the reason is, Your Honor, is 21 that, as Your Honor knows, there was a subpoena issued to the 22 DNC, we only got two documents in response. And if these 23 documents are in addition to the two that we got, then it 24 would show that perhaps there were other documents that 25 should have been produced. 116 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So it would bear on whether or not 2 the DNC has complied. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: With my order. But my order has 5 not been executed yet. They're still in the process of 6 complying with it, aren't they? The DNC? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know what they're doing. 8 That order is on appeal. However -- 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Let me stop the mystery. 10 They were given to me by Ms. Braswell. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you very much, 12 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: In response to my request as 14 to whether there were any documents that had anything to do 15 remotely with Terry McAuliffe. There were three. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you very much. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we just ask for copies of them, 18 Your Honor? It will speed things along. 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You have them. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, are they 21 documents -- 22 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, they are deposition 23 exhibits. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: From other depositions. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. From the Ginger Lew 117 1 deposition, Your Honor. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Could you just identify them? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you remember what three they 4 were, Ms. Braswell? Please. 5 MS. BRASWELL: I certainly do. There was this 6 document and Mr. Klayman is well aware of the other two 7 documents, which were a memo and a letter that were 8 non-signed from Mr. McAuliffe to Ms. Moss. 9 Mr. Klayman is well aware of those documents, 10 Your Honor, and he's in possession of them and we've seen 11 them at many depositions. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: And I assume he'll ask 13 Mr. McAuliffe about them since they seem to be the only 14 relevant documents to Mr. McAuliffe in this proceeding. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 16 MS. BRASWELL: He undoubtedly has them as exhibits 17 ready to ask him -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I just -- I'm trying 19 to conduct this as a legal proceeding. This sounds more like 20 a congressional hearing, the way we're going. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's see if we can move 22 on. 23 Ms. Braswell, at the luncheon recess, would you 24 please make sure that you show Mr. Klayman the documents that 25 you got and then we can solve the mystery. 118 1 Now let's return to Mr. McAuliffe and any question 2 you wish to ask him about the memorandum dated January 13, 3 1994. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did you discuss this paragraph of the memorandum 6 with counsel? 7 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I don't understand. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: The paragraph I just read. 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: The discussion with whom? 10 Contemporaneously? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: With Mr. Ben-Veniste. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: No, you may not have any 13 information about discussions with counsel. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. I'm going to sustain the 15 privilege as to that, Mr. Klayman. There's -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. Let me explain my 18 ruling. A recent decision by Judge Kollar-Kotelly bears 19 directly on this and she held that communication with 20 reference to a document between counsel and the witness as to 21 the significance of that document is protected by the 22 attorney-client privilege. 23 I'm very familiar with that decision because in 24 reaching that conclusion she reversed me, all right? So 25 she's right and I'm wrong. So that archetypically falls 119 1 within the privilege. 2 I think you were making inquiry about the third 3 paragraph. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Okay. What I'm asking you is this: does this 6 document refresh your recollection as to whether or not the 7 Democratic National Committee played any role in selecting 8 participants to go on Commerce Department trade missions? 9 A No. 10 Q Now, Ari, the reference to Ari here, do you take 11 that to mean Ari Swiller? 12 A It's Ari. Yes. Ari. 13 Q Ari Swiller? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Okay. And is it not true that you had knowledge 16 that names were being provided by the Democratic National 17 Committee to the Commerce Department to take donors on the 18 trade mission to Belgium? 19 A No, I had no knowledge of that. 20 Q Have you ever heard of Sally Painter? 21 A No. 22 Q But if I told you that Sally Painter worked with 23 Melissa Moss, would that refresh your recollection? 24 A No. 25 Q You know Reta Lewis, do you not? 120 1 A I do. 2 Q And did Reta Lewis work at the White House for a 3 period of time? 4 A She did. 5 Q Does she still work there? 6 A No. 7 Q What was her job at the White House? 8 A She was in one of the departments. I don't know 9 which one she was in. 10 Q Generically speaking, what department was she in? 11 A I'm not going to guess. I don't know. 12 Q Well, it's just discovery. It doesn't necessarily 13 come into evidence in the trial, but what do you think she 14 was in? 15 A I'm not going to guess. I don't know which 16 department she was in down there. She worked in the White 17 House. She was on the staff. I can't tell you which 18 department. 19 Q She worked in the Office of the President, correct? 20 A Well, if that's the whole West Wing and everybody, 21 yes. 22 Q Okay. And you are aware that Ms. Lewis from time 23 to time provided names of persons to take on Commerce 24 Department trade missions, correct? 25 A I have no idea what Reta Lewis did or did not do in 121 1 the White House. No knowledge. 2 Q You are aware that Alexis Herman played a role in 3 Commerce Department trade missions. 4 A I have no knowledge of that. 5 Q Are you aware that they had briefing sessions at 6 the White House for participants on Commerce Department trade 7 missions before they went overseas? 8 A I have no recollection of that. Could have. I 9 don't know. 10 Q Did you know that Alexis Herman worked for the 11 Office of Public Liaison in the White House? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And what was it your understanding the Office of 14 Public Liaison did when Alexis Herman was head of that 15 office? 16 A I believe they did outreach to the business 17 community. 18 Q And what is outreach to the business community? 19 What does that mean? 20 A I don't know. You'd have to ask her. I don't 21 know. I didn't work there. 22 Q Out reach is a term in fundraising parlance that 23 you offer certain benefits to people in outreach in exchange 24 for campaign contributions, correct? 25 A That's incorrect, Mr. Klayman. I'm sorry. 122 1 Q Now, the reference to BLF in this paragraph, that's 2 referring -- that's the acronym for Business Leadership 3 Forum, correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q Okay. And the people that are referred to in this 6 memorandum, Bob, do you have any understanding as to who Bob 7 was? 8 A I don't know who Bob was. 9 Q Fran? Was there a Fran that worked with the DNC? 10 A Frank Wakem worked there. I don't know what her 11 title was, but she worked there. Fran Wakem. 12 Q How is that spelled? 13 A W-a-k-e-m. 14 Q And what was her job? 15 A I don't know. I think she might have been -- I 16 don't know what she was in '93, I think she was Richard's 17 assistant, I believe. 18 Q Richard Sullivan? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Laura? 21 A After Jane and I left, Richard took over with Tim 22 Collins and I believe Fran worked for them. 23 Q Was there a Laura? 24 A That's probably Laura Hartigan. 25 Q Richard? Richard Sullivan? 123 1 A I guess. I don't know. 2 Q Stephen? 3 A That might have been Stephen Goodin. 4 Q And what was his job? 5 A I don't know specifically. 6 Q Where is Mr. Goodin today? 7 A I have no idea. 8 Q Do you know where Ms. Wakem is? 9 A No idea. 10 Q Jay? 11 A Don't know. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me, Mr. Klayman. The 13 videographer is indicating that he is out of tape and we're 14 going to have to stop for lunch. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: 1:30, everyone? 17 THE WITNESS: What time? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: 1:30. 19 THE WITNESS: Great. 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 21 12:19. 22 (Whereupon, at 12:19 p.m., a luncheon recess was 23 taken.) 24 * * * * * 124 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:37 p.m.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video record at 4 1:37 p.m. 5 Whereupon, 6 TERENCE RICHARD McAULIFFE 7 was recalled as a witness and, after having been previously 8 duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: 9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF (RESUMED) 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Mr. McAuliffe, when we broke we were talking about 12 a memorandum of January 13, 1994, trade mission to Russia. I 13 believe that's Exhibit 4, is it? 14 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q I identified -- do you need a copy of it? 17 A No. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, the actual exhibit would 19 be -- 20 MS. BRASWELL: Who has the stamped -- do you have 21 the stamped exhibit? 22 THE WITNESS: I have it right here in front of me. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you handling the exhibits? 24 David, the law clerk? 25 MR. SOUTHARD: I don't know. Am I officially 125 1 handling the exhibits? 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You handed him this one. 3 MR. SOUTHARD: I handed him this one. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Do you have any other 5 ones there? Just -- 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Do you have any of other ones 7 that were marked? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not accusing you of anything -- 9 MR. SOUTHARD: I do. I think I have all of them 10 here. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. If you'll put them out on the 12 table. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. 13 THE WITNESS: Larry? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Terry? Question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q The question was in this memorandum -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q You previously identified that Ari Swiller was the 19 head of the DNC Managing Trustee Program, correct? 20 A That's what I thought his title was, yes. 21 Q Right. Now, in this memorandum which goes to Ari, 22 it is discussing -- 23 A It's Ari, just -- Ari. 24 Q Ari. 25 A Yes. 126 1 Q Correct. It talks about providing names of 2 companies from the DNC to go on the Belgium trade mission of 3 the Department of Commerce, correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q In fact, paragraph 2, it says, "Sally Painter at 6 Commerce called to ask for a list of candidates for a trade 7 mission to Russia. She needs an initial list by tomorrow 8 (Friday, 1/14) of 20-30 names." 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q "I explained to her that Laura and Richard and the 11 chairman were all out of town and that we would likely have 12 additions early next week to this initial list to be 13 submitted tomorrow. She indicated that an addendum of 14 additional names could be submitted next week, but they 15 wanted to get a first look at names on Friday." 16 The chairman was David Wilhelm, just to firm it 17 down? 18 A Correct. Mm-hmm. 19 Q Okay. Now, turning back to Exhibit 3, which 20 Mr. Ben-Veniste's law clerk kindly made available here -- 21 A He's Ben-Veniste. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you prefer Ben-Veniste? 23 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, I prefer to pronounce it 24 correctly, but Ben-Vineste is okay. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I always thought they called 127 1 you Ben-Vineste. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, it's just one more thing, 3 Larry. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that Spanish or Italian? 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Let's go. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I speak Italian. So -- 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q This brochure is DNC Managing Trustee Events & 9 Membership Requirements and this is the Managing Trustee 10 Program which in fact Ari Shiller managed, correct? 11 A Swiller. 12 Q Swiller. Excuse me. 13 A This is -- if you look at the letterhead and the 14 names, I have left the DNC at this point. I cannot tell you 15 who ran what at that point. I was not there then. 16 Q But it's the same Managing Trustee Program, whether 17 or not Ari Swiller was involved at that time or not. 18 A I don't know if this was the same as when I was 19 there. These were not the chairs of the party when I was 20 there. I don't want to speak to a different leadership team 21 than when I was there. 22 Q Are you aware of the DNC Managing Trustee Program 23 having changed after you left? 24 A I couldn't tell you one way or the other. 25 Q You don't know that it did change, correct? 128 1 A I have no idea. 2 Q You weren't aware that they changed the DNC 3 Managing Trustee Program to some other derivation of 4 membership? 5 A They certainly could have. 6 Q But you don't have any knowledge of that. 7 A No. Un-uh. 8 Q And to the best of your knowledge, the DNC Managing 9 Trustee Program continues in effect to today, correct? 10 A I have no knowledge. 11 Q You have no knowledge that it continues or you just 12 have no knowledge period? 13 A I have no knowledge if it continues today. I have 14 left the party, as I told you before, at the end of 1994. I 15 have not been involved in the operations of the DNC since 16 then, so I can't speak to something five years ago. 17 Q Now, I realize that we had some testimony on this 18 and I don't intend to be duplicative, but when you were at 19 the DNC, what did the DNC Managing Trustee Program entail? 20 A I have no idea. I would need to have a brochure or 21 something from five years ago to refresh my memory. I have 22 no idea. 23 Q Absolutely none. 24 A No. Absolutely none. Please give me a brochure 25 from when I was finance chairman. That's all I ask. 129 1 Q Do you suffer from any periodic lapses of memory, 2 Mr. McAuliffe? 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have you ever had problems with your memory -- 7 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: -- from a medical perspective? 9 I think it's a legitimate question, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know of a DNC trade mission to Russia? 13 A I know of one to Paris only. 14 Q You don't know of any to Russia? 15 A No. 16 Q You don't know of a DNC Managing Trustee trade 17 mission to Russia? 18 A No. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 20 reporter to mark as Exhibit 5. 21 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 22 5 was marked for identification.) 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Larry? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a memorandum of May 5, 1994 25 to Ann Cahill from Martha Phipps, re: White House 130 1 Activities. "In order to reach our very aggressive goal of 2 $40 million this year, it would be very helpful if we could 3 coordinate the following activities between the White House 4 and the Democratic National Committee." 5 Number 4, "Invitations to participate in official 6 delegation trips abroad. Contact: Alexis Herman." 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Was this shown to you by your counsel or anyone 11 else before the deposition today? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q Do you know who Ann Cahill is? 14 A She used to work in the White House. I can't tell 15 you what her title -- she used to work, as you referred to it 16 earlier, the Office of the President. She worked in the West 17 Wing somewhere. 18 Q And what did she do, generically speaking? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Do you know who she worked for? 21 A No. 22 Q And do you know where she is today? 23 A No. 24 Q Have you ever heard of Martha Phipps? 25 A Yes. 131 1 Q Who is Martha Phipps? 2 A She was David Wilhelm's assistant. I don't know 3 her exact title. 4 Q And what were her duties and responsibilities as 5 Mr. Wilhelm's assistant? 6 A I have no idea. 7 Q She was -- 8 A She was his assistant. 9 Q One of his top assistants? 10 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 11 Q Did he have other top assistants? 12 A I think he had many. 13 Q Who were the ones that you can remember? 14 A I can't remember any of them. They were down at 15 the other end of the hallway and I had very little 16 interaction with them. 17 Q Do you remember their first names? 18 A No. 19 Q Where is Ms. Phipps today? 20 A She's in Los Angeles. 21 Q And where is she located -- who does she work for 22 in Los Angeles? 23 A I don't know who she works for. 24 Q When was the last time you spoke with her? 25 A I've seen her -- you know, I see her a couple of 132 1 times a year. She's now married to Mr. Swiller, Ari Swiller. 2 Q Did they work on selecting trade mission 3 participants together when they were at the DNC? 4 A I don't think they dated back then, but I have no 5 knowledge of that. 6 Q Did they work together in the same area of the DNC? 7 A No. 8 Q But in coordinating the DNC Managing Trustee 9 Program, obviously the chairman of the DNC would have to be 10 in contact with the DNC Managing Trustee director, who was 11 Mr. Swiller, correct? 12 A I don't know about Ari's contact with the 13 chairman's office. It was the other end of the hallway, I 14 don't know how frequently he did or did not deal with the 15 staff. I don't know the answer to that question. 16 Q Does this document refresh your recollection as to 17 whether or not seats on Department of Commerce or Energy 18 Department trade missions were sold for campaign 19 contributions? 20 A No seats were ever sold, Larry, for trade missions. 21 Q Now, the use of the word in part 4, "Invitations to 22 participate in official delegation trips abroad" -- 23 A Mm-hmm. 24 Q How do you take that word "official" to mean? 25 A I've never seen the memo before. I'm not copied on 133 1 it. My name is not referenced. I'm not going to give 2 speculation on a memo I had nothing to do with. I don't know 3 what it means. You would have to talk to the people who 4 wrote it, got it, dealt with it. I've never seen it before. 5 Q You were at the Democratic National Committee at 6 the time this memorandum which is Exhibit 5 was written, 7 correct? 8 A You bet. 9 Q And as part of your duties and responsibilities, 10 you would have reviewed correspondence with the White House 11 or from the White House just like this one, Exhibit 5, 12 correct? 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of that 14 question. I don't know what "just like this one" means. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Well, you would have seen this kind of 17 correspondence -- 18 A I would not have. 19 Q -- in your position as DNC finance chair, correct? 20 A I would not. As I say, I was a lay person, staff 21 dealt with correspondence and dealt with the matters back and 22 forth. I didn't deal in that issue. 23 Q By the way, what does a "lay person" mean? 24 A A volunteer, a person who it is not their full-time 25 job who is there to be of assistance. Lay leadership. 134 1 Q Is that a commonly used phrase in the fundraising 2 community? 3 A Lay leadership? 4 Q Yes. 5 A Yes. RNC has lay leaders. Mel Sembler is the lay 6 leader of the finance committee at the RNC today. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 8 reporter to mark as Exhibit 6. 9 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 10 6 was marked for identification.) 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 6 is a document labelled or 12 headed at the top "The Managing Trustee Program" and it bears 13 a statement at the bottom that says Req. 2/3/97, which is 14 probably the production date on the document. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 17 A Could have. I don't recall it. 18 Q What leads you to believe that you could have seen 19 this? 20 A I could have seen any document, Larry. I don't 21 have a recollection of seeing it one way or the other. Do we 22 know any time period when this existed? 23 Q So any document I show you today, you could respond 24 you may have seen it. 25 A Could have. Sure. I don't recall seeing it. 135 1 Absolutely. 2 Q Including the notes I'm taking right now? Is that 3 what you're saying? 4 A What's that mean? 5 Q No, I'm just trying to understand -- is there a 6 basis upon which you came to the conclusion that you may have 7 seen this? 8 A No. I don't recall seeing this. I certainly could 9 have. 10 Q Is that because you were at the DNC at the time 11 this document was generated? 12 A I don't know if I was. Do we know the date of 13 this? 14 Q Now, look at the document here. 15 A Okay. 16 Q "The Managing Trustee Program is a small group of 17 supporters to whom the DNC looks for national leadership in 18 the Party. Members are asked to provide their views on party 19 direction and strategy to top Party leaders. Managing 20 Trustees are involved in a wide range of forums, to inform 21 other prospective DNC donors about Administration and Party 22 initiatives and activities and to encourage their 23 participation in those activities." 24 Is that an accurate statement of what the DNC 25 Managing Trustee Program was about when you were at the DNC? 136 1 A All I can tell you is I don't believe this was 2 around when I was there because they refer to the Democratic 3 Business Council. I was never there at the party when they 4 called it the Democratic Business Council. The name was 5 changed when I got there to the Business Leadership Forum and 6 stayed that way when I was finance chairman in 1994. So this 7 document is unrelated to the time I was there. 8 Q Well, does this help you date the document, what 9 you've just said to me? 10 A Yes. I think it predates -- it probably could have 11 been early '92, '93, late '92, '93. 12 Q You have received documents from time to time in 13 the course of your activities from Harold Ickes, correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And some of those documents were written in his 16 handwriting. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q Now, this handwriting here, this is Harold Ickes' 21 handwriting. 22 A I can't tell you it is or isn't. Who -- I can't 23 tell you if that's his handwriting, Larry. 24 Q You can't exclude the fact that it may be his 25 handwriting. 137 1 A It certainly could be. It's not mine, I can tell 2 you that. 3 Q This document purportedly came from the files of 4 Harold Ickes. 5 A Okay. 6 Q The handwriting opposite annual economic trade 7 missions, is that what you were just referring to? Was that 8 what you were looking at? 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q What about the handwriting below? It looks 11 somewhat different. Is that Ickes' handwriting? Does that 12 help you at all? 13 A No, that looks much bigger than Harold's 14 handwriting. 15 Q Do you know whose handwriting that is? 16 A No. As I say, this was not a document -- the 17 Democratic Business Council was not in existence at the time 18 period I was at the party, so this was either before I got 19 there -- now, I believe they've changed the name back, but 20 when I was there, this was not a document that would have had 21 any relevance because it doesn't refer to the right names of 22 the committees. 23 Q What has the name been changed back to? 24 A I think it went back to the Democratic Business 25 Council. 138 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 2 reporter to mark as Exhibit 7. 3 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 4 7 was marked for identification.) 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q This is a document dated August 17, 1994 on 7 Democratic National Committee letterhead. 8 A Correct. 9 Q To Mr. Harold Ickes from Terence R. McAuliffe. 10 Is that you? 11 A Yes. 12 Q National Finance Chairman. 13 A You bet. 14 Q And did you write this document? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Whose handwriting is that below, the P.S.? Is that 17 yours? 18 A That's mine. 19 Q And what did you say there? 20 A "You will be happy to know that we went over our 21 28th million today -- another record!" 22 Q $28 million? 23 A Yes, in receipts. 24 Q Okay. And that was a record in terms of 25 fundraising receipts. 139 1 A For the DNC. You bet. Another historic moment for 2 the party. 3 Q And another historic moment for you, correct? 4 A Well, you know -- 5 Q That's why you're number one fundraiser. 6 A Well, you say that. I appreciate that, Larry. 7 Q Now, this document reflects in paragraph 1, 8 "On Monday, September 26th, 1994, the Democratic National 9 Committee is hosting a Business Leadership Forum dinner 10 honoring Vice President Al Gore. The dinner will be held at 11 the Hay Adams Hotel," it gives the address. "I would like to 12 cordially invite you to attend this event as an honored 13 guest." 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Does this help refresh your recollection as to 16 whether or not the Business Leadership Forum was involved in 17 offering trade missions, whether they were DNC or government 18 trade missions with the assistance of Mr. Ickes? 19 A What does this have to do with trade missions? 20 Q I'm just asking you whether it refreshes your 21 recollection. 22 A Oh, no. It doesn't. It refreshes my mind that we 23 wanted Harold to speak at one of our seminars. 24 Q Well, the bottom line here is that you worked 25 closely with Mr. Ickes, did you not? In effecting the 140 1 fundraising goals of the Democratic Party and the 2 Clinton-Gore campaign. 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of the 4 question as to what a bottom line is in this context. I 5 don't know. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I think you can make the 8 objection -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Overruled. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Can you answer that question, sir? 14 THE WITNESS: Did I work with Harold Ickes? Yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q And you worked with him closely, correct? 17 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 18 Q Are you aware that when Mr. Ickes left the White 19 House that he took with him several boxes of documents? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How did you become aware of that? 22 A Read it in the newspaper. 23 Q Did you ever discuss the documents that Mr. Ickes 24 took with Mr. Ickes? 25 A No. 141 1 Q Have you ever had access to any of the documents 2 that he took with him? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you ever reviewed them with him? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you ever had any discussions with Mr. Ickes 7 since he left the White House about issues related to the 8 campaign finance investigations before Congress? 9 A Nothing specific. 10 Q What did you discuss generally? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 14 Did you have any general discussions with him about 15 that topic? Was that the distinction you were drawing? 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: About campaign finance 17 investigations? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Was that the distinction you were 20 drawing, Mr. McAuliffe? Between general and specific 21 discussions? What did you mean to say when you said that? 22 THE WITNESS: All I would say, if I would see 23 Harold on the street or something and we might have a passing 24 comment, nothing substantive, sir, at all. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Fine. Thank you. 142 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you ever discuss how either of you were going 4 to testify in front of congressional proceedings? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever have those discussions with anyone 7 other than your counsel how you would testify in the campaign 8 finance hearings? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Beyond the scope. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. That will be 11 sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Now, you testified this morning that you 14 were questioned by Senate investigators in the campaign 15 finance investigation that took place in the fall of '97, 16 correct? 17 A You bet. 18 Q Do you remember who questioned you? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Beyond the scope. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: It's discovery, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, frankly, what that has to do 23 with what we're here to do, Mr. Klayman -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, because I might like to go talk 25 to that person and see what information he or she has. 143 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If it -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me, Mr. Ben-Veniste. 3 Would the premise of that, however, be attempting 4 to explore whether the witness had discussions with other 5 parties, as you have discussed with him, with those people? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Well, he may tell me no, but I 7 may not believe him on that. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, but the relevancy then would 9 be a function of the topic being the same. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Discussions about other things 12 would not be relevant. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think we're in agreement. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the point is, Your Honor, I 16 don't want to be cut off on that because the witness may or 17 may not be testifying accurately on that. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, why don't you do 19 a few exploratory questions and we'll see where it's going. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you remember who it is that questioned you in 23 the Senate finance committee? Senate Government Affairs 24 Committee? 25 A No, it was a nice, young, red-haired gentleman. I 144 1 can't remember his name. 2 Q Did anyone other that red-haired gentleman ever 3 question you on the committee? 4 A There were two or three people, young, they have 5 young -- unfortunately, Larry, I didn't get the top shelf 6 guys. It was the second -- lower down people. I don't 7 remember who they were. Two or three young people. 8 Q What do you mean, you didn't get the top people? 9 A Well, they didn't roll Maddigan out or anybody like 10 that. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If I could make a suggestion, 12 Your Honor? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 14 MR. BEN-VENISTE: These committee hearings were the 15 subject of final reports -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We've seen them in this case. 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: -- and very substantial release 18 of underlying information. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I appreciate that. And I'm hoping 20 Mr. Klayman will bring this home in terms of what the 21 discussion with those people were. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I was just trying to identify 23 who he talked to first. 24 THE WITNESS: He didn't make an indelible mark. 25 I'm sorry. 145 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did anyone ever ask you about the Commerce 3 Department trade missions in the questioning before the 4 Senate Government Affairs Committee? 5 A I could have been asked questions. I don't believe 6 that I was. I certainly don't recall that. I just don't 7 know. 8 Q Did anyone ever show you documents about the 9 Commerce Department trade missions during those interrogation 10 sessions? 11 A I've never known anything about these trade 12 missions. I've always thought them to be a joke. I've never 13 paid attention -- the answer is no, I don't recall anything 14 to do with any trade missions. 15 Q Why did you always consider these trade missions to 16 be a joke? 17 A Because nobody ever sold seats on a trade mission. 18 The whole -- I think the whole discussion is ridiculous. 19 It's a waste of taxpayer money. I've never been involved in 20 anything to do with anybody at the Department of Commerce as 21 it relates to getting money for somebody to go on a trip. So 22 it has not made a mark on me. I could have been asked a 23 question, I don't recall it. 24 Q Was anything else offered by the administration or 25 the Democratic Party to try to induce contributions in the 146 1 1996 election cycle? 2 A Yes. 3 Q What was that? 4 A Good government. And that's why we resoundly won 5 reelection and won first place. Because Bill Clinton gets 6 out of bed every day trying to help that average Joe. 7 Q I'm going to return to an earlier line of 8 questioning, I didn't explore it very far, but we started to 9 talk about the meetings that you had where Hillary Clinton 10 was present where -- and I believe you testified that you may 11 have discussed the benefits of membership in the Democratic 12 Party or contributing to the Clinton-Gore campaign during 13 those meetings. That's correct, right? 14 A The best recollection I had, I sat in one meeting 15 with the First Lady in early 1995 and the sole discussion was 16 my campaign plan for the Clinton-Gore reelection, when we 17 would open the campaign, issues to that effect, which has 18 been widely reported upon. 19 Q But you're still not answering my question. Were 20 there discussions of what the Democratic Party could provide 21 to donors in terms of certain benefits for making donations? 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. Asked and answered. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I never got -- 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: The witness has given his 25 recollection about all those meetings and whether or not 147 1 certain individuals were or were not present to the best of 2 his present recollection. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, if you can, would 4 you speak to that question again? 5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't believe I ever 6 had any meetings with the First Lady as it related to 7 anything to do with benefits ever. 8 All I can remember is one meeting and it had 9 nothing to do with DNC benefits; it was the Clinton-Gore 10 campaign. And it wasn't about benefits. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. McAuliffe. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you ever have any telephone conversations 14 with the First Lady or anyone on her staff about that 15 subject? 16 A No. 17 Q Have you ever heard anyone say that Hillary Clinton 18 was the one who conceived of providing certain benefits to 19 donors to the Democratic Party? 20 A No. 21 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Nolanda Hill? 22 A I've heard her name. She's the woman who is in 23 prison today for tax fraud? 24 Q Where did you hear she's in prison for tax fraud? 25 A I read it in the newspaper, she'd been convicted of 148 1 some kind of tax fraud, is in prison today. That's what I'd 2 heard. 3 Q Was that in the paper today? 4 A Well, the last two weeks, three weeks. 5 Q Did someone provide that article for you? 6 A Every once in a while I do glance at the newspaper 7 if I have a few minutes. 8 Q Does that please you that she's in prison? Sounds 9 like you're kind of happy about that. 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know her one way or the 12 other. I'm just wondering if it's the same woman. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Argumentative. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Whether he's pleased or not is 17 not -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I mean he had a certain demeanor. 19 THE WITNESS: It's the same demeanor I've had all 20 day. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. There's no reason to 22 quarrel. Please move on. 23 THE WITNESS: I just want to make sure I have the 24 right woman. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead, Mr. Klayman. 149 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever heard of her before then? 3 A Yes. 4 Q How did you hear of her? 5 A She was around Democratic Party activities. I had 6 no dealings with her at all personally. 7 Q What Democratic Party activities was she around? 8 A I can't remember. She was around. Probably went 9 to different events in the '80s and whatever. 10 (Interruption to the proceedings.) 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me for a minute. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 13 2:02. 14 (A brief recess was taken.) 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 16 2:05. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q When did you first learn of Nolanda Hill? 19 A Learn what about her? What do you mean? I said I 20 met her at different Democratic events. 21 Q What role did you understand her to play at those 22 Democratic events, if any? 23 A I don't think any. I think she was a donor. 24 Q You were aware that Nolanda Hill was a business 25 associate of Ron Brown, correct? 150 1 A I knew that after the stories had come out in the 2 newspaper. I did not know that beforehand. 3 Q And you were aware that she had a close personal 4 relationship with Ron Brown, correct? 5 A No. 6 Q You've seen that reported since then, haven't you? 7 Since Mr. Brown died? 8 A That she was his business partner? 9 Q Yes. And close confidant. 10 A I knew she was a business partner. Beyond that, 11 you know, everybody's life is their own. 12 Q And, in fact, you frequently saw her in the 13 presence of former Secretary Brown, correct? 14 A I didn't see Ron much, to be honest with you. 15 I mean, I might see him maybe once a year. I just didn't 16 see Ron much. So I think the few times I did see Ron, she 17 wasn't with him. 18 Q You are aware that Ron Brown was Secretary of 19 Commerce? 20 A I am. 21 Q Correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And historically speaking, whether it's Democrat or 24 Republican administration, fundraisers have frequently made 25 the Secretary of Commerce, correct? 151 1 A Became Secretary of Commerce? 2 Q No, I said whether it's a Republican or a Democrat 3 administration, frequently top fundraisers become the 4 Secretary of Commerce. 5 A Yes. Correct. Bob Mosbacher, right. 6 Q Malcom Baldridge. 7 A I didn't know he was a fundraiser. 8 Q Ron Brown. 9 A Ron, I knew. Mosbacher. 10 Q Ron was a good fundraiser, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q One of the best. 13 A You're good on these superlatives about 14 fundraisers. 15 Q Mickey Kantor. 16 A I wouldn't know Mickey -- I would never call Mickey 17 a fundraiser. 18 Q You do know Mickey Kantor, though, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. The reason that fundraisers frequently get 21 the post of Secretary of Commerce is because they are in 22 contact with American business, correct? 23 A You would have to ask the specific presidents why 24 they appoint certain people to become Secretary of Commerce. 25 I think that's a very broad statement. They're very 152 1 qualified people. I don't think they're there because 2 they're fundraisers. 3 Q But the question -- let me see if I can make it 4 simpler -- is that fundraisers frequently seek the post to be 5 Secretary of Commerce because that puts them in contact with 6 business companies which frequently give money to political 7 parties, correct? 8 A I think that's a big leap of faith, Mr. Klayman. 9 I don't think anyone seeks the job of Secretary of Commerce 10 to meet companies for people who give money. I think it's an 11 honor to be Secretary of Commerce. 12 Q You've been involved in Washington politics for 13 many years, correct? 14 A Twenty. 15 Q Twenty. And you are aware that the Commerce 16 Department gives out certain grants to business, correct? 17 A I guess they do. I think every department does. I 18 don't have any specific knowledge about Commerce. 19 Q And you are aware that the Commerce Department 20 plays a role in export licensing, correct? 21 A I guess. I never really gave it much thought. 22 Q And you are aware that the Commerce Department even 23 before the Clinton administration undertook trade missions 24 from time to time, correct? 25 A I have no specific knowledge, but if you say it, I 153 1 believe it. 2 Q Right. Now, all of those various activities that 3 I've just mentioned bestow benefits, either financial or 4 non-financial, on American business, correct? 5 A That -- what? If they go on a trade mission? 6 Q To go on a trade mission and have the government 7 help them do business, that's a benefit to business, correct? 8 A I certainly hope our government is out helping 9 promote American business. Yes. 10 Q So the answer is yes. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And if the Commerce Department grants an export 13 license to an American company that wants to export high 14 technology, that's a benefit, correct? 15 A I would assume so. 16 Q And if the Commerce Department gives a grant of 17 money to a company that wants to develop some high 18 technology, that's a benefit, correct? 19 A I would assume so. 20 Q And that's why a fundraiser likes to be head of the 21 Commerce Department because he gets to bestow benefits on 22 companies that may give money politically, correct? 23 A I had always heard that Ron didn't want the 24 Secretary of Commerce, he wanted other jobs, what I was told. 25 Q I didn't ask you about that. I asked you about -- 154 1 A I don't think fundraisers seek it for any of that. 2 The answer to your question is no. 3 Q Okay. Now, in fact, you sought the job of 4 Secretary of Commerce, didn't you? 5 A No. 6 Q After Ron Brown died. 7 A I'm sorry to laugh, Larry. I don't know where 8 you heard this one. You're reading too many of those right 9 wing magazines. I never sought the -- no. Oh, I've got to 10 get some of your subscriptions. No. The answer to that is 11 no. 12 Q Did you know I worked for Jimmy Carter? 13 A I did not know that. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's get back to the topic 15 of discussion, fascinating as this is. Let's go. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Mr. McAuliffe? 19 A Yes? 20 Q Were you mentioned as a successor to Ron Brown as 21 Secretary of Commerce? 22 A No. Ron Brown died and I believe Mickey Kantor was 23 the next Secretary of Commerce. I believe when Ron died, I 24 think I was in the middle of the campaign. I don't think I 25 was leaving the campaign. I was mentioned after the '96 155 1 campaign. 2 Q As Secretary of Commerce? 3 A Myself and about 20 other people in The Wall Street 4 Journal. Yes. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'll show you what I'll ask the 6 court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 7 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 8. 8 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 9 8 was marked for identification.) 10 THE WITNESS: Well, this is 1997. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: It's an article in The Washington 12 Post, January 19, 1997. 13 THE WITNESS: Correct. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: "Clinton's Million Dollar Man; After 15 Raising a Bundle, Terry McAuliffe Now Wants to Lower his 16 Profile." Paragraph fourth from the bottom. 17 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Fifth from the bottom, "The giant 19 sucking sound of the 1996 campaign was Terence R. McAuliffe, 20 vacuuming cash." 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Excuse me, Your Honor, but I 22 would move to strike this. If the purpose here is simply to 23 attack Mr. McAuliffe and read what may be printed in various 24 outlets that print material nowadays, I would disagree with 25 that as a legitimate purpose for this deposition. 156 1 MR. KLAYMAN: The only reason I'm reading this, 2 Your Honor -- 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Move to strike. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: -- is because it then leads into the 5 next paragraph. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Look at the next paragraph and 7 we'll go on through that. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: "No wonder the President and Vice 9 President Gore (who'd love to lock up McAuliffe's services 10 for the presidential race in 2000) have been showering him 11 with offers of plum positions -- such as Secretary of 12 Commerce, ambassador to the Court of St. James's and chairman 13 of the DNC, all of which he declined -- and entrusted him 14 with the politically sensitive job of organizing this 15 weekend's celebration of power." 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Is that a correct statement, Mr. McAuliffe? Were 18 you offered those positions by the President and Vice 19 President? 20 A It never got to the point that they offered me this 21 or that. As the article adequately states, at the end of the 22 campaign, I wanted to spend more time with my family and get 23 back to my business interests. 24 Q Well, but again my question was were you ever 25 offered the position of Secretary of Commerce by the 157 1 President or Vice President? 2 A I never let them offer me anything because I had 3 conversation with both the President and Vice President about 4 what my intentions were. I knew that they would want me to 5 do several different things. I headed it off immediately and 6 said that what I want to do is go back and spend some time on 7 other matters. 8 Q Did you ever have discussions with anyone about 9 becoming Secretary of Commerce? 10 A It was talked about, people -- sure, people talked 11 to me about it. 12 Q Who talked to you about it? 13 A I can't give you specifics, but probably donors 14 or -- you know, probably my friends in the White House, 15 Harold Ickes or others. 16 Q Okay. Well, we've got Harold Ickes. Who else? 17 Who were the donors that talked to you? 18 A I can't recall who talked to me about it. I was 19 never going to do it, so it wasn't something I took 20 seriously. 21 Q Well, I'm not asking you that. Did Bernard 22 Schwartz of Loral Corporation talk to you about it? 23 A No. 24 Q Did anyone from Hughes Corporation talk to you 25 about it? 158 1 A I don't believe I know anybody from Hughes. 2 Q Did anyone in the computer industry talk to you 3 about it? 4 A No. 5 Q Anyone in the nuclear industry talk to you about 6 it? 7 A No. 8 Q Anyone in the telecommunications or aerospace 9 industry talk to you about it? 10 A No. 11 Q So the only one you can remember was Harold Ickes 12 that talked to you about it? 13 A Well, nobody -- we didn't have discussions on it. 14 There were discussions of what people might do after the 15 election and so it was general sort of political chit-chat, 16 but nothing of a substantive nature. Sorry. 17 Q Well, what generally was talked about in political 18 chit-chat? 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's about ninth-hand hearsay. 22 All right. Let's move on. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Now, did these people who wanted you to take that 25 post -- 159 1 A I didn't say they wanted me to take it. 2 Q Well, in fact, you were being talked about for that 3 post because you had experience in working with the Commerce 4 Department, correct? 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q And you were being talked about for that post 10 because Ron Brown had died in April of 1996 and these people 11 wanted to put someone at the Commerce Department that could 12 carry on the fundraising at the Commerce Department, correct? 13 A No. 14 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I object, Your Honor. This is -- 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, he answered the question. 16 Mr. Klayman, let's move on. I think we've 17 exhausted the question of whether he was going to become 18 Secretary of Commerce. 19 THE WITNESS: Boy, I tell you -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, there's no 21 question. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Now, getting back to Nolanda Hill -- 25 A Yes? 160 1 Q Are you aware that she's testified in this lawsuit? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How did you become aware of that? 4 A I think I read it in a newspaper somewhere. 5 Q Have you seen the transcript of her testimony in 6 this lawsuit? 7 A I don't believe I have. No. 8 Q Have you seen any affidavit which she prepared and 9 submitted in this lawsuit? 10 A Can I speak with my counsel for a minute? 11 Q Well, first tell me whether you remember seeing it 12 or not. 13 A No. I don't have to discuss attorney-client 14 privilege with you. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please, go ahead. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Take a moment and please speak to 18 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 19 You can go in the other room if you need to, 20 gentlemen. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 22 2:16. 23 (A brief recess was taken.) 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 25 2:19. 161 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever seen Ms. Hill's testimony in the form 3 of an affidavit in this case? 4 A No. 5 Q By the way, the newspaper article that you say you 6 saw about her being sentenced to prison, where was that? 7 What newspaper was that? 8 A Larry, I saw in the last month or so that she was 9 going to go away for six months or something. I read it in 10 some newspaper. I travel a lot, I don't know where it was. 11 It was in the newspaper that the judge had sentenced her to 12 go to prison. 13 Q Did you discuss that sentence with anybody? 14 A No. I was on an airplane. 15 Q Do you know Eric Holder? 16 A I know who he is. 17 Q Have you ever met him? 18 A I've met him once or twice to say hello. 19 Q Did you ever discuss Nolanda Hill with him? 20 A No. 21 Q With anyone at the Justice Department? 22 A No. 23 Q Have you ever discussed Nolanda Hill with anyone at 24 the White House? 25 A No. 162 1 Q The Democratic National Committee? 2 A No. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 4 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 9. 6 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 7 9 was marked for identification.) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 9 before? 10 A No. 11 Q This is the testimony of Nolanda Hill on March 23, 12 1998 before this Court and I turn your attention to page 99, 13 line 15. 14 A Okay. 15 Q Wherein I ask the question, "Okay. Now, in the 16 course of your discussions with Ron," meaning Ron Brown, 17 "you became aware, did you not, that Terry McAuliffe -- 18 strike that -- that there were persons associated with the 19 Democratic National Committee that were working with the 20 White House to sell seats on trade missions for campaign 21 contributions? You became aware of that, didn't you?" 22 And she responds, "Yes, sir." 23 And then I ask, "And one of those persons was Terry 24 McAuliffe; correct?" 25 And she answers, "Well, he was the -- he was the -- 163 1 an important fundraiser for the party." 2 I then ask -- 3 A You are the questioner? 4 Q I am the questioner. 5 A Okay. 6 Q "And he was instrumental, based on your discussions 7 with Ron, in working with the White House and coordinating 8 the sale of seats on trade missions; correct?" 9 Answer: "He was certainly highly involved, 10 according to Ron. I had no personal knowledge of it." 11 Where do you think that Nolanda Hill would have 12 obtained this information? 13 A From you. If you read -- you're very clever here, 14 Larry. She doesn't mention my name; you do. "You became 15 aware, did you not, that -- oh, strike that." You should be 16 ashamed of yourself. You're the one that raised my name, she 17 didn't, and I want the record to be perfectly clear on that. 18 Q The record will speak for itself, but I'm looking 19 at lines 3 and 4 -- 20 A "He was the -- an important fundraiser for the 21 party." 22 Q Where -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, you want to bear 24 something in mind. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir? 164 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The reporter has to get what 2 everyone says. If both of you speak simultaneously -- 3 THE WITNESS: She can't get it. I'm sorry, sir. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- it's absolutely impossible. 5 And the next day the transcriber calls us and says the 6 deposition is a mess. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So let's -- 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just let the other person finish 11 and then you can say what you want. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q I'm looking at lines 3 and 4 on page 100. 15 A Mm-hmm. 16 Q Where Ms. Hill testifies, "He," Terry McAuliffe, 17 "was certainly highly involved according to Ron." Ron Brown. 18 Where would she have gotten that information in terms of 19 getting it from Ron? 20 Did you have discussions with Ron about the trade 21 missions? 22 A As I stated earlier, I never had a discussion with 23 Ron Brown about trade missions or I would even take it a step 24 further about anything to do with DNC or fundraising. I 25 would see Ron maybe once a year at a social occasion. 165 1 Q Now, you did when you were at the DNC have contact 2 with Marvin Rosen, correct? 3 A Marvin Rosen did not succeed me as finance chair. 4 Truman Arnold succeeded me and he came after Truman. 5 Q When did you first meet Marvin Rosen? 6 A Probably 1980, in the Carter campaign or it clearly 7 could have been the Mondale campaign in '84. 8 Q And in what capacity did you meet Mr. Rosen? 9 A We were both out helping raise money. Fundraising. 10 Q Did you have an opportunity to work with Mr. Rosen 11 directly on anything? 12 A Not really. He -- he did events in Miami, that's 13 where he was from. He would do events down in Miami and I 14 would go to some events down there. He became -- 15 Q His law firm is Greenberg Traurig in Miami? 16 A Greenberg Traurig. Correct. He became, I believe, 17 after Tim Collins, he became the chairman of the Business 18 Leadership Forum and then from there went to finance 19 chairman. I believe. 20 Q When did he become chairman of the Business 21 Leadership Forum? 22 A I believe I left, I was over at the campaign. 23 Tim came in, was there in '94. I think Marvin may have come 24 in, I think, in '95 some time. 25 Q So he succeeded you. 166 1 A No. Tim Collins -- 2 Q Not directly, but he came after you. 3 A Yes. 4 Q And after he finished at the Business Leadership 5 Forum, he became DNC finance chair. 6 A Yes. 7 Q The ascension that you experienced, correct? 8 A Mm-hmm. 9 Q And you had a chance to work with Marvin Rosen 10 while he was both chairman of the Business Leadership Forum 11 and DNC finance chair, correct? 12 A We didn't work that closely. I was running a -- 13 not a competing organization, but, as you know, it was a 14 separate committee. I was chasing people to give money to 15 Clinton-Gore and he was chasing people for the DNC. 16 Q But you did work with him. 17 A Sure. 18 Q And on what projects did you work? 19 A I don't know if there was a specific project at all 20 I worked. 21 Q Did you help him manage the DNC Managing Trustee 22 Program? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you give him input from time to time on that? 25 A No. 167 1 Q Did you ever discuss trade missions with Marvin 2 Rosen, either DNC trade missions or Commerce Department trade 3 missions? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether Marvin 6 Rosen participated in providing names of donors to take on 7 trips overseas by the Commerce Department? 8 A No. 9 Q You don't know one way or the other? 10 A I have no knowledge. I don't know. You asked me 11 do I have any knowledge. No. 12 Q Do you know whether or not Marvin Rosen 13 participated in a scheme to sell seats on trade missions of 14 the Commerce Department for campaign contributions? 15 A Marvin would never do that. I have no knowledge. 16 Q What leads you to believe that Marvin would never 17 do that? 18 A I think he did an honorable job as finance chair. 19 Nobody's going to go in and sell seats. It's ridiculous. 20 Q And why is that ridiculous? 21 A Because you just wouldn't do it. You wouldn't sell 22 official seats. You just wouldn't do it. 23 Q You wouldn't do it because it's illegal, right? 24 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 25 Q And it's your understanding that for doing 168 1 something like that, you could be convicted of a crime, 2 correct? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think that's what illegal means. 5 Why don't you move on to something else? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q At lines 5 through 7, I ask, "And another person 8 who was highly involved -- " 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Now you're back on page 100? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: On 100. Yes. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Of Exhibit 9. Just a moment. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q "And another person who was highly involved from 14 the DNC in coordinating the sale of seats on trade missions 15 for campaign contributions was Marvin Rosen? 16 Answer: "I understood from Ron that that was 17 correct." 18 Question: "And these people worked with the White 19 House in furthering what Ron thought was a perversion of his 20 trade missions; correct?" 21 Answer: "That's correct." 22 Do you have any knowledge as to who Marvin worked 23 with at the White House? When I say Marvin, Marvin Rosen? 24 A No. 25 Q Who was he in contact with frequently? 169 1 A I don't. 2 Q You knew, though, that he was in contact with the 3 President and Mrs. Clinton from time to time. 4 A I'm sure he would see them at fundraisers. Yes. 5 Q And he coordinated those fundraisers with them from 6 time, correct? Setting them up? 7 A With the President? 8 Q Yes. 9 A I think they attended. I don't think they did 10 anything to set them up with him. That's what the finance 11 staff does. 12 Q Well, who would the DNC finance chair speak with in 13 terms of position at the White House to coordinate a 14 fundraising event, to make sure the President or First Lady 15 attends? 16 A That would have been done generally on a staff 17 level. 18 Q At what level? 19 A The person who was responsible for that event or 20 the finance director, I would take it. Generally, the 21 finance chair is not into scheduling. 22 Q Marvin Rosen was in frequent contact with Harold 23 Ickes, correct? 24 A You'd have to ask Marvin. I don't know who Marvin 25 was -- 170 1 Q I'm asking you. 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Do you have any knowledge? 4 A No. I have no knowledge. 5 Q Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of Glen 6 Gladney? 7 A No. 8 Q Chairman and CEO, DSC Electrical Power Systems? 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think that's the question, 10 Mr. McAuliffe. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Does that refresh your recollection? That he's 15 chairman -- 16 A No. Never heard his name. 17 Q -- of that company, DSC Electrical Power Systems? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you ever play any role on the trade mission the 20 Commerce Department took to South Africa? 21 A I don't believe I played any part in any trade 22 mission the Department of Commerce did, let alone South 23 Africa. 24 Q Were you ever advised of any matter concerning a 25 trade mission to South Africa by the Commerce Department? 171 1 A I don't believe so. No. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 3 reporter to mark as Exhibit 10. 4 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 5 10 was marked for identification.) 6 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a letter of November 16, 1993 7 written on the letterhead of Pyle, P-y-l-e, Dreher, 8 D-r-e-h-e-r, Mills & Dye, P.A. It bears Bates number 1603 -- 9 two 1603s. It's two pages. And it starts "Re: 1994 South 10 Africa Trade Mission, Digital Software Corporation Electrical 11 Power Systems. 12 "With reference to the earlier letter to you from 13 my client," this letter is addressed to Ron Brown, Secretary 14 of Commerce, "Glenn A. Gladney, Chairman/CEO, DSC Electrical 15 Power Systems, regarding his interest in being included in 16 your 1994 South Africa trade mission, this is simply to urge 17 your favorable consideration of Mr. Gladney's request." 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Does that refresh your recollection? 20 A No. 21 Q Turning to the second page, "Again, your favorable 22 consideration of Mr. Gladney as a participant in the South 23 Africa trade mission would be most appreciated in developing 24 the new relationship of DSC Electrical Power systems with 25 the Department of Commerce. I look forward with eager 172 1 anticipation to continuing my longstanding relationship 2 with you since the days of the Democratic National Committee 3 and hope to have an opportunity to personally express my 4 appreciation in the future. Sincerely yours, Wilson Golden." 5 Do you know Wilson Golden? 6 A I know who he is. 7 Q Who is Wilson Golden? 8 A I think he had helped raise some money for the 9 party through the years, not a major amount, but he had been 10 helpful. 11 Q Who has Mr. Wilson Golden worked for over the 12 years? 13 A I have no idea. I don't know him that well. 14 Q You have from time to time worked with Mr. Golden 15 raising money for the Democratic Party, correct? 16 A I don't know if I directly have. I'm sure he's 17 helped the party where I have been in different capacities. 18 He might have been one of the 800 members of the Business 19 Leadership Forum, but I have not specifically worked with 20 Mr. Golden. No. 21 Q To be a member of the Business Leadership Forum, 22 you have to be fairly prolific in fundraising, correct? 23 A No, you can write a check. 24 Q And how much does it cost? 25 A $10,000. 173 1 Q And where does the money go, to the Democratic 2 Party? 3 A You bet. 4 Q Now, you're copied on this letter. 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q Do you see that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Terence R. McAuliffe, Esquire. You received this 9 letter, didn't you? 10 A I've never seen it before. It could have been sent 11 to the headquarters and been with the thousands of other 12 letters that are sent in and out of that place. 13 Q This letter was sent to you because in fact you did 14 have input into the Commerce Department taking donors on 15 trade missions and, in particular, South Africa. 16 A Geez, I'm sorry to say you're wrong, Larry. 17 Q Who is Mr. Steven J. Boykin, B-o-y-k-i-n? 18 A Never heard of him. 19 Q Have you ever met John Huang? Do you know who John 20 Huang is? 21 A Read a lot about him. 22 Q Have you ever talked to John Huang? 23 A I don't believe I've ever had any discussion with 24 John Huang. I may have run into him at certain events and 25 said hello, but I have no recollection of ever having a 174 1 conversation with John. He came much later. 2 Q What events did you run into him at? 3 A I'm not sure I have ever run into him at one. 4 Q Did you ever go to any events where fundraising was 5 taking place in the Asian-American community or in the Asian 6 community? 7 A In my whole history? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Sure. 10 Q What events were they? From 1992 forward. 11 A From 1992 forward? 12 Q Yes. 13 A I mean, there were Asians generally at every event 14 we had. 15 Q Well, was there ever an event that was geared 16 specifically for -- 17 A Oh, just for Asians? 18 Q -- Asians and Asian outreach? 19 A No, I don't believe so. But there were -- you 20 know, events where many people of Asian descent who were 21 United States citizens who attended our events. Proud to 22 have them. Fighting the same wars we do. 23 Q Do you know Nora and Gene Lum? 24 A No. 25 Q Have you ever talked to them? 175 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know Melinda Yee? 3 A No. 4 Q You ever talk to her? 5 A No. 6 Q You know who I'm referring to, Melinda Yee? 7 A I don't. I recognize the name -- the Lums, from 8 what I've read, but I've never met them. 9 Q Have you ever met Charlie Trie? 10 A Yes. 11 Q When did you meet Charlie Trie? 12 A Probably 1993 or 1994. 13 Q What were the circumstances? 14 A He was helpful to the party. I think he was a 15 trustee, I believe. 16 Q A managing trustee? 17 A I'm not sure which level trustee, managing, but he 18 was around. He was a donor. 19 Q So to be managing trustee, he would have had to 20 give 100 grand, correct? 21 A You had to give or raise a certain amount. I'm not 22 sure what the breakdowns were. Give 100 and raise X, or -- 23 Q Do you know where Mr. Trie got the 100 grand? 24 A No. 25 Q Have you read since? 176 1 A No. 2 Q Are you aware that it came from Communist Chinese 3 banks? 4 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor, as to the 5 relevance of what Mr. McAuliffe may have read about Charlie 6 Trie. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Now, what were the circumstances of your meeting 10 him as a managing trustee? 11 A People would come by the headquarters and the 12 staff would bring them in to say hello to me or we'd be at 13 different events where I would be speaking and people would 14 come up and say hello to me. Generally, you have interaction 15 with the people who did give you checks and raise you money. 16 Q And what did you say to Mr. Trie? 17 A I probably said -- 18 Q At any of these encounters? 19 A Hello, Charlie, how are you? Thanks for your help. 20 I guess. I don't know. 21 Q Did you know what Charlie had done before he became 22 a managing trustee? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you know he ran a restaurant in Little Rock, 25 Arkansas? 177 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Clearly outside the 2 scope. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to -- 4 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, this isn't -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 Did you know about his background, he ran a 7 restaurant in Little Rock? 8 THE WITNESS: I've read that he owned a Chinese 9 restaurant. I did not know it at the time? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you know whether or not Mr. Trie had had 12 contact with the President and First Lady or others at the 13 White House? 14 A No. 15 Q Have you ever talked to him about that? 16 A Talked to whom? 17 Q As to whether or not he had contact with people at 18 the Clinton White House? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever talked with anyone about Charlie 21 Trie's activities during the Clinton administration years? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you have any knowledge as to what Charlie Trie 24 has done in terms of any politically-related activities, if 25 any, during the Clinton years? 178 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 Do you know anything of that? 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you ever seen Charlie Trie at the White House? 8 A I can't recall. Could have, just don't recall it. 9 Q Do you know whether or not Charlie Trie went on 10 Commerce Department trade missions or at least showed up on 11 them? 12 A No knowledge. 13 Q Have you ever worked on any fundraising initiative 14 where Charlie Trie was involved? 15 A That's a very broad question. I'm sure he attended 16 different events. 17 Q But did you ever work directly with Mr. Trie in 18 trying to further any fundraising goals? 19 A No. He would have worked with the staff. 20 Q Who did he work with on the staff? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q Generically, where did he work? Where did he 23 contact in terms of the staff? 24 A I don't know. I can't tell you he was a managing 25 trustee. I believe he was a member of one of the donor 179 1 councils. I don't know who he dealt with. 2 Q How is it that you're able to remember that he was 3 a managing trustee and a member of one of the donor councils? 4 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. That's 5 contrary to the witness' testimony. Mr. McAuliffe said -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, don't give him testimony. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Just a moment. 8 Could I ask you to step outside for a second, 9 Mr. McAuliffe? 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 (The witness was excused.) 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Ben-Veniste? 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Thank you, Your Honor. 14 Once again, Mr. Klayman has misstated the testimony 15 and then put a leading question to the witness that includes 16 a misstatement of the witness' testimony. 17 Mr. McAuliffe said just a couple of questions 18 before the last question that he knew that Mr. Trie was a 19 Democratic donor at some level, didn't know if he was a 20 managing trustee, but might have been. 21 Then Mr. Klayman in a highly argumentative question 22 says how can you remember he was a managing trustee and then 23 goes on or was about to go on. 24 This, in my view, is simply a waste of valuable 25 time of everyone present here to argue and misstate the facts 180 1 and I think Mr. McAuliffe has been here quite responsive to 2 any questions relating to the issues as I understand them in 3 this lawsuit. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, in all due respect, if I 5 was to actually express my views of Mr. Ben-Veniste's conduct 6 here, I don't think it would be appropriate and I suggest 7 that he refrain from making attacks on me any time he makes 8 an objection. And I'm just simply trying to -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Speak more if you would -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm trying to find out why he 11 remembers Charlie Trie. Obviously there's some reason why he 12 remembers him and it doesn't flow from the fact that he knows 13 of no contact with him. That's what I'm trying to get at. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you want to know why he 15 remembers Mr. Trie as opposed to -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. What stuck in his mind. 17 That's what I'm trying to get to. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why don't you ask him that? 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If that were the question, I 20 would not have objected, Your Honor. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I take issue with your 22 mischaracterization of my questioning -- 23 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: -- and the accuracy of it. 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: When you go back and read the 181 1 transcript, you'll see why. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. The transcript will 3 speak for itself. Let's see if we can move on. 4 I'm sorry, Mr. McAuliffe. Would you please come 5 in? 6 (The witness returned.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. McAuliffe, why is it that you remember any 9 contact with Charlie Trie at all? 10 A Why is it that I remember any contact? 11 Q Yes. 12 A What does that mean? Why do I remember any 13 contact? 14 Q Well, I asked you a series of questions and you 15 couldn't remember any specifics about him, you didn't seem to 16 really remember anything he had done or any of your 17 interaction with him, but why is it that you remember him at 18 all? 19 A I remember he was a donor or a fundraiser. I mean, 20 he was around, he was at events, that's all I know. 21 Q Because in fact you have an excellent memory, 22 correct? 23 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: How would you rate your memory, 25 Mr. McAuliffe? Do you have a good memory for people and 182 1 places? 2 THE WITNESS: Pretty good. Sure. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is there any -- I guess what 4 Mr. Klayman is getting down to the bottom line is is there 5 any reason why this particular man sticks out in your mind 6 that you can think of? 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's move on. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Have you ever met or had any contact with someone 11 by the name of Johnny Chung? 12 A Met him, have had no real contact with Johnny 13 Chung. 14 Q When did you meet -- well, you're saying meeting 15 someone is no contact? 16 A You would see people at events, Larry, and he 17 was -- he did not help at the Clinton-Gore campaign, he was 18 not a member of the different things we did. I know who he 19 is, I've read about Johnny. He was around. 20 Q Where did you meet him, what event? 21 A I can't tell you which event. He was around to 22 different events. 23 Q Did you have a conversation with him? 24 A I'm sure I did. 25 Q And what was the nature of the conversation? 183 1 A Probably hello, Johnny, thanks for your help, 2 something to that effect. 3 Q What did you understand his help to be? 4 A I can't recall today specifically what help he did 5 or did not do. I don't know what donor club he was a member 6 of. 7 Q You knew, of course, that he was making 8 contributions to the Democratic Party with monies from China, 9 correct? 10 A I did not know that. 11 Q You knew that Johnny Chung appeared on a Commerce 12 Department trade mission to China, correct? 13 A I did not know that. 14 Q You knew that Johnny Chung had had contact with 15 John Huang and Charlie Trie, correct? 16 A I did not know that. 17 Q Did you know of reports that Johnny Chung had 18 contact as well as John Huang and Charlie Trie with Chinese 19 intelligence? 20 A I did not know that. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 22 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 23 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 11. 24 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 25 11 was marked for identification.) 184 1 MR. KLAYMAN: This is an article entitled "Liu and 2 Johnny Chung: Puzzling Financial Ties, Details Emerge on DNC 3 Donor's China Link." It is an article which appeared in the 4 Washington Post on May 24, 1998 by David Jackson and Lena 5 Sun. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you ever seen this article before? 8 A I don't believe I have. 9 Q Do you know a Liu Chaoying, L-i-u C-h-a-o-y-i-n-g? 10 Daughter of China's most powerful military official? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you ever heard anyone discuss her? 13 A No. 14 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 15 funds generated by that person made their way into the 16 Democratic Party? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you ever heard of a company by the name of 19 Casil, C-a-s-i-l? 20 A C what? 21 Q C-a-s-i-l. 22 A No. 23 Q Have you ever had any contact with a company called 24 China Aerospace? 25 A No. 185 1 Q Have you ever had any contact with a company by the 2 name of China Great Wall Industry Corp.? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you ever had any contact with anyone by the 5 name of Wang Jun? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you know who Wang Jun is? 8 A No. 9 Q Have you ever had any contact with anyone by the 10 name of Jude Kearney? 11 A I have read -- I believe he was over at the 12 Department of Commerce. 13 Q Did you yourself ever have any contact with him? 14 A No. 15 Q Written, oral or otherwise? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know what he did at the Department of 18 Commerce? 19 A No. 20 Q What causes you to remember that you read that he 21 was over at the Department of Commerce? 22 A The name just rings a bell as someone who worked at 23 the Department of Commerce. 24 Q Do you know why you remember that name? 25 A No. 186 1 Q Turn to page 5, down at the left-hand bottom, 2 second paragraph, "That August, Chung made his first 3 substantial DNC contributions, totaling $11,000 from his fax 4 company's account, and his luck quickly turned for the 5 better." This is August of '94. 6 You were at the DNC in August of '94, correct? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Were you aware at that time or thereafter that 9 Chung had made a contribution for $11,000? 10 A Probably not. 11 Q Probably not? 12 A I wouldn't know individual checks that come in to 13 the committee. 14 Q But you did know that Chung had made a contribution 15 in and around that time period. 16 A No, I can't say I did. 17 Q Correct? 18 A No. I didn't see individual checks. 19 Q You were the DNC finance chair at that time, 20 correct? 21 A You bet. 22 Q "The same month as his donation to the party, 23 Democratic operatives," I'm reading from the article, 24 "introduced Chung to then-Deputy Assistant Commerce Secretary 25 Jude Kearney, who in turn suggested that Chung join a 187 1 Commerce Department trade mission to China, according to 2 Chung's proposed testimony -- or proffer -- to the Senate 3 Investigators. (Kearney said through an attorney that he did 4 not recall making that suggestion, but did not dispute 5 Chung's account.)" 6 Does that refresh your recollection as to matters 7 involving Johnny Chung, Commerce Department trade missions 8 and contributions to the Democratic Party? 9 A No. 10 Q Is this where you read about Jude Kearney, in the 11 context of this article? 12 A Don't know. Do not know. 13 Q Have you ever been questioned by anyone from the 14 Federal Bureau of Investigation about the campaign finance 15 controversy that gave rise to hearings before the Senate 16 Government Affairs Committee? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q When was that? What year? 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: May I have a moment, Your Honor? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 24 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 25 THE WITNESS: My counsel corrects me that I was not 188 1 interviewed by the FBI. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Have you ever been interviewed by anyone from the 4 Department of Justice concerning the campaign finance 5 controversy? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And who was that? 8 A Who were the agents? 9 Q Well, who interviewed you? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, the Department of 11 Justice is broken down into a lot of different sections. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Could I help Mr. Klayman here? 14 Mr. McAuliffe, to my recollection, was not 15 interviewed by the FBI in connection with the Senate 16 investigation where he gave testimony, which was the basis 17 for Mr. Klayman's question. 18 Mr. Klayman is now asking whether he was 19 interviewed about campaign finance by anybody. He was. He 20 was interviewed by the FBI, but in connection with another 21 matter, not this Senate inquiry. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me broaden it a little bit. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q You are aware that the Justice Department has been 25 investigating allegations that illegal monies were donated to 189 1 the Democratic Party from China, correct? 2 A Yes. Correct. 3 Q Were you interviewed in that context by the FBI? 4 A No. 5 Q Were you interviewed in any context of this whole 6 campaign finance scandal by the FBI? 7 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection to the form of the 8 question, give your recollection of being interviewed by the 9 FBI in connection with any matter. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The FBI has been conducting a 11 broad based investigation, right? An aspect of it has to do 12 with Trie, Huang and China. 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, there may be other aspects of 15 it that are also within the focus of their investigation. 16 These other aspects, other than Trie, Chung and Huang, do you 17 remember being interviewed about those other aspects of 18 whatever this investigation may entail? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And this was an informal interview? 22 A Yes. 23 Q You weren't before a grand jury? 24 A No. 25 Q Were you advised you were a target? 190 1 A No. 2 Q A subject? 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Au contraire. 4 THE WITNESS: I've never been a target, sir. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, I don't want testimony from 6 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 7 THE WITNESS: Never been a target. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What was the subject of the conversation? 10 A It was an investigation of phone calls. 11 Q Your phone calls? 12 A No, no. Not my phone calls. The whole phone call 13 of the President and the Vice President. 14 Q The issue of phone calls from the White House? 15 A Correct. Mm-hmm. 16 Q And who interviewed you from the FBI? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q Is that the only issue they've ever interviewed you 19 about, was phone calls? 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q The issue of whether Vice President Gore had -- 22 A Right. 23 Q -- made phone calls? 24 A It didn't happen while I was there, so it was a 25 short interview. 191 1 Q And that was it? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Never talked about anything else? 4 A Not to my recollection. 5 Q Aside from the Senate investigators and the FBI 6 talking to you about phone calls in the White House, has 7 anyone ever discussed any matter with you from a federal 8 agency about the campaign finance scandal? 9 A No. 10 Q Next paragraph of this article, "The trip was 11 Chung's first visit to China. Indirectly, it led to Chung's 12 meeting with Liu and, in a previously unreported twist on the 13 campaign finance scandal, to his hooking up with another 14 Democratic fundraiser Yah Lin 'Charlie' Trie, who was 15 indicted earlier this year on charges that he illegally 16 funneled foreign money to the Democrats." 17 A Mm-hmm. 18 Q Have you ever had any discussions with anyone about 19 the indictment of Charlie Trie or any matter related to that? 20 A No. 21 Q "Chung made the trip at his own expense and was not 22 listed as a member of the official U.S. delegation, but 23 Kearney met him at the Beijing airport and escorted him to a 24 restaurant where they m et Trie's wife, Chung's proffer 25 said." 192 1 Have you ever had any discussions with anyone about 2 Johnny Chung's proffer of information in terms of his 3 activities in DNC fundraising? 4 A No. 5 Q "Kearney then took Chung to a hotel where they met 6 then-Commerce policy official Melinda Yee, the proffer said. 7 Chung later attended functions where he met with government 8 officials and executives from the United States and China, 9 and had his picture taken with Commerce Secretary Ron Brown." 10 Does that refresh your recollection as to who 11 Melinda Yee is? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you know who a Ng Lap Seng is? N-g L-a-p 14 S-e-n-g. A Macao-based financier, listed in the next 15 paragraph? 16 A No. No. 17 Q Have you ever heard anyone talk about him? 18 A No. 19 Q Getting back to John Huang, correct me if I'm 20 wrong, but I believe your testimony was that you encountered 21 him at some functions, correct? 22 A May have encountered him. 23 Q Did you ever have a conversation with him directly? 24 A No. 25 Q Have you ever heard conversations by anyone about 193 1 John Huang? 2 A I mean, after -- I mean, people have talked 3 about this whole campaign finance stuff, just general 4 conversation. 5 Q Have you ever talked with anybody who is or was 6 part of the Clinton administration about John Huang? 7 A No. 8 Q Have you ever talked to any federal or state 9 investigators about John Huang? 10 A No. I just don't know the man. No. Sorry. I 11 don't know him. 12 Q Have you ever received any kind of documentation 13 where John Huang's name was listed? 14 A I don't understand your question. 15 Q Have you ever seen a document that has John Huang's 16 name on it? Other than a press article. 17 A I'm not sure at the Senate deposition if he had 18 asked if I had known John Huang and showed me document, they 19 could have. I've had no dealings with John Huang. Don't 20 know the man. 21 Q In your capacity as a fundraiser for the Democratic 22 Party or the Business Leadership Forum, has John Huang's name 23 ever come up orally or in writing? 24 A It certainly could have. I have no recollection. 25 It certainly could have. 194 1 Q What leads you to believe that it certainly could 2 have? 3 A Because anything could have. I just have no 4 personal recollection. I don't know the man. I've never had 5 a meeting with the man. I don't know how to say it any other 6 way. 7 Q Have you had any discussions with anyone that was 8 at the Democratic National Committee or currently is at the 9 Democratic National Committee about John Huang? 10 A Not to my recollection. 11 Q So you don't remember one way or the other? 12 A Until John Huang's name came out in the news, I 13 have no knowledge basis of any dealings with him. 14 Q Well, I'm also talking after his name came out in 15 the news. 16 A No. No. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 18 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 19 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 12. 20 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 21 12 was marked for identification.) 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q This is a memorandum to Terry McAuliffe from Ari 24 Swiller, who as you testified ran the Managing Trustee 25 Program. 195 1 A Right. 2 Q It's dated June 6, 1994. He ran the program in and 3 around that time period, correct? 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Concerning trustee calls. 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q "Following is a list of the calls we discussed." 8 It lists John Huang with a Los Angeles exchange. Do you see 9 that? 10 A Mm-hmm. 11 Q Now, does that refresh your recollection as to 12 whether you ever had any written communication of any kind 13 where John Huang's name appeared? 14 A It does refresh my recollection that the Senate 15 showed me this exact document and, as I said to them, I never 16 called John Huang or spoke to John Huang. I get sent call 17 sheets every day by everybody on the staff. Some calls were 18 made, many were not. 19 Q Do you know John Huang was listed on this document? 20 A You'd have to ask Ari Swiller. No. 21 Q Was it because John Huang played a role in 22 selecting participants on Commerce Department trade missions? 23 A I just told you I know nothing about John Huang, so 24 I can't change the answer for you. 25 Q That could be a reason that he's listed? 196 1 A No. You're asking me to speculate on a memo that 2 was sent to me by a staff member. You would have to ask the 3 staff member. 4 Q Was that a reasonable assumption, that because Ari 5 Swiller was in charge of the DNC Managing Trustee Program and 6 because it was fashioned after the Republican Eagles and 7 because trade missions and other perks were available that 8 John Huang participated in offering perks to potential donors 9 in exchange for campaign contributions? 10 A I don't think he had anything to do with any of 11 that. I assume he wanted -- these were people who had given 12 money in the past, I would assume. I don't know. As I say, 13 every staff member sent call sheets. Many times, they did 14 not make it to my desk. They were stopped by the finance 15 director or my assistant before they even got to me. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 17 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Before you do, Mr. Klayman, if I 19 may -- 20 Mr. McAuliffe? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What did Mr. Swiller mean when he 23 said, "Following is a list of the calls we discussed"? What 24 would that mean? 25 THE WITNESS: He probably would have said, sir, 197 1 that I'm going to submit a list of calls I want you to make 2 to solicit for money. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Oh, I see. So he is trying to 4 remind you that he wants you to consider calling these 5 people. 6 THE WITNESS: Right. As the finance chairman, sir, 7 you sit in your office and you probably get 500 call sheets a 8 day from your staff. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I see. 10 THE WITNESS: Now, what generally happens, sir, is 11 it would go first to the finance director and she would 12 either approve it or not approve it, then to my assistant. 13 So many times, call sheets did not make it to me. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But just for the purposes 15 of my understanding, this is not Swiller saying I got a call 16 from Huang and we discussed it. 17 THE WITNESS: Oh, no. No. He's asking me to make 18 these calls to solicit for money. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I see. Thank you. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I follow up on that, Your Honor? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Given the fact that your memory is rather -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No characterizations of the 25 witness' testimony, please, Mr. Klayman. Just ask your 198 1 question. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Well, my point is that you really don't remember, 4 in fact, whether or not you were discussing calls that 5 already occurred from these people or whether you were going 6 to make calls to these people because this is a long time 7 ago, correct? 8 A Well, but if I had made -- if I had made the calls, 9 I would have scratchings on them on what would have happened 10 on the calls. So obviously I didn't make these calls. If I 11 had made the call, I would have said we'll do 50 or we'll do 12 25. 13 Q Well, my point is, as the Magistrate read you that 14 line, "Following is a list of the calls we discussed," 15 Swiller may have been saying to you we discussed calls made 16 by John Huang to me, previous calls that were made. 17 A No. I can tell you that this is a list of calls 18 that he wanted me to make. He would say I would like you to 19 make -- they submitted these sheets all the time. There's 20 probably a thousand of these call sheets just like this 21 floating around the DNC. 22 Q Did you call anybody on this list? 23 A If I had off of this memo, I would have marked it 24 up, but I don't -- 25 Q Well, this memo may or may not be the memo that had 199 1 your markings, okay? It could have come from Swiller's files 2 rather than yours, correct? 3 A Yes. It could be. Right. 4 Q So I'm asking you whether you actually called any 5 of these people. 6 A Larry, I made 10,000 money calls. I cannot recall 7 five years ago making this specific list. Everybody 8 submitted names for me to call. 9 Q Did the Senate investigators get the phone records 10 of the DNC, to the best of your knowledge? 11 A I have no idea. 12 Q Did they ask you any questions off of phone records 13 when they met with you? 14 A I don't recall. I don't know. Could have. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 16 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 17 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 13. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: 13. 19 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 20 13 was marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Looking at Exhibit 13, this is another memorandum 23 from Ari Swiller to Terry McAuliffe and Laura Hartigan. 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q Date: November 30, 1994, $25,000 donors from 1993 200 1 CA dinner. What does CA mean? 2 A California, I believe. 3 Q And you were DNC finance chair at the time? 4 A I was not. 5 Q What were you -- 6 A Oh, I'm sorry. November 30th. I'm sorry. For the 7 '93 dinner. November 30th, I was the finance chair. 8 Q "The following donors contributed $25,000 to the 9 Marvin Davis dinner in December 1993." 10 Who is Marvin Davis? 11 A Well, there's two Marvin Davises. One of them owns 12 an oil company and one of them owns the -- well, I guess -- I 13 think there's two. A big donor who owns a big studio and oil 14 man. Pretty well known. 15 Q Which one is this? 16 A I don't know. I think it's the big oil guy from 17 Denver, lives in California, owns a movie studio. I believe. 18 Q Is there a Marvin Davis that's been reported in the 19 context of the Teamsters Union? 20 A No. No. It's Martin. 21 Q It's Martin? 22 A Yes. This is a big donor. 23 Q It's a different one? This guy's a big donor, 24 Marvin Davis? 25 A He obviously chaired an event at his home. I did 201 1 not attend the event, but he had an event in his home. 2 Q Okay. It lists Jane and John Huang. Are you aware 3 if Jane and John Huang attended that event? 4 A I did not attend that event. I don't know. 5 Q But do you know whether they went? 6 A I do not. 7 Q Contributions were received from time to time by 8 the Democratic Party that were actually solicited by John 9 Huang but attributed to Jane Huang, correct? 10 A I have no knowledge of that. 11 Q I previously asked you whether you knew of a David 12 Mercer. 13 A Mm-hmm. 14 Q And in what context did you know of him? 15 A As I stated before, he was a staff member of the 16 Democratic National Committee. 17 Q In the finance division? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And he worked under your direction? 20 A He worked under Laura Hartigan's direction. I did 21 not run the staff, Larry. For the 88th time. 22 Q You were the chairman. 23 A I was the finance chair. I did not have day-to-day 24 direct responsibility. They reported to the head of the 25 staff. A big distinction. I could not hire, I could not 202 1 fire, I had no responsibilities with the staff. 2 Q Is there anything in writing about your 3 responsibilities? 4 A I don't think so. 5 Q Does the DNC have a manual where it says what the 6 duties and responsibilities of the DNC finance chair is? 7 A I don't think they have a manual for the 8 volunteers, the lay structure, as we call them, but it 9 clearly delineates what the staff does. 10 Q Has there ever been anything committed to writing 11 about what your duties and responsibilities were as DNC 12 finance chair? 13 A I don't know. You'd have to ask Laura about that 14 or somebody there. Nobody gave me a brochure and said these 15 are your responsibilities. 16 Q And, again, your responsibilities, according to 17 you, was just to be a cheerleader. 18 A You know, encourage people to give money, get them 19 excited, rev them up. 20 Q You didn't play any role in inviting anybody to sit 21 on the finance board of the DNC finance committee, correct? 22 A Sure. Those are all -- the lay people or the staff 23 people? 24 Q Lay people. 25 A Yes. Lay people were all part of a finance board 203 1 of people we had and it was under me. 2 Q So you did play a role in recommending people to 3 sit on that board. 4 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 5 Q And one of the people that you recommended to sit 6 on the board is Charlie Trie, correct? 7 A If someone had recommended that he should be on it, 8 the staff probably submitted a list to me and I would have 9 approved it. 10 Q And, in fact, you do have knowledge that you played 11 a role in recommending Mr. Trie to sit on that finance board, 12 correcT? 13 A I don't think I specifically recommended. I 14 believe that someone probably recommended to me that he 15 should be on it. 16 Q But you remember that, correct? 17 A No, I don't remember that. Sorry. 18 Q Is that how you maybe remember his name right now? 19 A Whose name? 20 Q Mr. Trie's. 21 A As I said before, I had seen him at different 22 events. 23 Q You have knowledge that the Democratic National 24 Committee played a role in having Mr. Trie attend events to a 25 trade mission to China, correct? 204 1 A No knowledge. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 3 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 14. 5 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 6 14 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q This is a memorandum to Martha Shoffner. Who was 9 Martha Shoffner? 10 A I don't have a clue. 11 Q From David Mercer, August 22, 1994, Follow-up 12 meeting with Charlie Trie. You were DNC finance chair on 13 August 22, 1994, correct? 14 A You bet. 15 Q Fourth paragraph, "DNC Finance Committee Board of 16 Directors: The request for the letter inviting Mr. Trie to 17 serve on the finance board is forthcoming. The request has 18 been made and is being processed. I meet with Mr. Terry 19 McAuliffe on August 24, 1994 to close the matter and secure 20 the letter." 21 That refreshes your recollection, does it not? 22 A Just as I said, a staff member recommended that he 23 be on the finance board. 24 Q And you now remember that you met with David Mercer 25 and discussed putting Charlie on the finance board. 205 1 A I do not. Absolutely not. It is consistent with 2 my statement that he was recommended by a staff member. 3 Staff came in and said this person would be good, I'd say 4 terrific. This was a volunteer board that met once and had 5 no responsibilities. 6 Q Next paragraph, "Mission to China: The Commerce 7 Department begins its mission to China on August 27, 1994. 8 I received word that arrangements for receptions and other 9 affairs were already handled through other sources. However, 10 Mr. Trie will receive notification of the mission's 11 activities, holding open the possibility of participating in 12 some of the events." 13 You were aware of what I just read to you in August 14 of '94, correct? 15 A No. 16 Q Now, this refreshes your recollection, does it not, 17 that the DNC did play a role in recommending people to 18 participate in Commerce Department trade missions in this 19 instance, the one to China on August 27, 1994. 20 A No. Never seen this memo. This memo was not to 21 me, I'm not copied on the memo. 22 Q You're discussed in the memo, aren't you? 23 A I'm discussed, that David Mercer had recommended 24 that Charlie Trie be put on the National Finance Board of 25 Directors, he and 60 other people. 206 1 Q You supervised John Huang, didn't you? 2 A Sorry, Larry. No. 3 Q In fact, you and Mr. Huang had ties -- 4 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Excuse me, Your Honor. 5 THE WITNESS: That's ridiculous. 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: The purpose of asking a question 7 like that in view of Mr. McAuliffe's testimony by my account 8 at least on four occasions he's been asked whether he had any 9 substantive conversations with this gentleman and now to ask 10 a leading question simply chews up the clock and is wasteful 11 of all of our time. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'm not trying to waste 13 anybody's time here. My time is valuable, too. But he 14 certainly can have a change of heart in his testimony and 15 I've shown him a number of documents in the interim which I'm 16 not going to characterize how they may or may not be at 17 variance with his earlier testimony, but I'm entitled 18 certainly to ask a simple question. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Why don't we move on? 20 You have indicated in your testimony, Mr. 21 McAuliffe, that you had no contact with this gentlemen that 22 you recall. I take it, then, it would be also your testimony 23 that you were, of course, never in a position to supervise 24 him. 25 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honor. 207 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. McAuliffe. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 3 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 15. 5 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 6 15 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q This is an article which appeared in the New York 9 Daily News November 1, 1996, headline "Bill's Man Linked to 10 Asian Donors." 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q By David Eisenstadt, E-i-s-e-n-t-a-d-t, Daily News, 13 Washington Bureau. Have you seen this article before? 14 A You bet I have. 15 Q And you saw it in and around November 1, 1996? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And in the top line here, it says, "President 18 Clinton's top fundraiser has long tried to tap big 19 Asian-linked campaign contributors, two Democratic operatives 20 said yesterday. 21 "Terry McAuliffe also supervised John Huang, the 22 banker and Democratic fundraiser at the center of the 23 simmering controversy over foreign campaign donations, the 24 operatives said. 25 "McAuliffe and Huang have ties dating back to the 208 1 middle 1980s, said the operatives, who have worked in the 2 party's fundraising apparatus and spoke on condition of 3 anonymity. 4 "'McAuliffe is the guy that put this whole money 5 scheme together,' said one current fundraiser, referring to 6 the solicitation of contributions from Asian-linked sources. 7 'Huang follows orders.'" 8 You remember reading that, don't you? 9 A Do you have a follow-up? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Good. 12 Q That's true, isn't it? Those statements are 13 correct. 14 A You have a retraction the next day and I'm sorry to 15 say, as you probably know, and you're misleading this here, 16 the reporter was fired for writing this story. 17 Q Well -- 18 A The reporter was fired and they did a full 19 retraction and sent a letter of apology and said there is not 20 one shred of truth. 21 Q Tell me what you did to have the reporter fired. 22 A I called Mort Zuckerman up. 23 Q You knew Mort, didn't you? 24 A You bet I did. 25 Q In fact, he's a contributor to the Democratic 209 1 Party. 2 A And I think he also gives to Republicans. 3 Q But he's given a lot of money to the Democratic 4 Party, right? 5 A I don't think a lot. No. He has donated. 6 Q Okay. And he's quite wealthy, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And he's the owner of the New York Daily News? 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q And he's the owner of U.S. News and World Report? 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q And he owns many different real estate ventures in 13 the Washington, D.C. and New York areas, correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And you called on Mr. Zuckerman based on your past 16 relationship with him to fire this individual, correct? 17 A Absolutely not. 18 Q What did you say to Mr. Zuckerman at the time? 19 A I said to Mr. Zuckerman that your newspaper has an 20 article today that has no basis of truth in it, that your 21 reporter did not even have the decency to call me to get a 22 comment on it. 23 Mr. Zuckerman said I cannot deal with the 24 newspaper, I have to have the editor call you. I said thank 25 you, please have the editor call me and gave him my phone number. 210 1 Several hours later, the editor called me. I went 2 through the facts of the situation, said I had never been 3 called, I was never asked to comment on this thing, it was 4 written with one unnamed source. The editor said I'll get 5 back to you later today. 6 He called back later that day and said we 7 apologize, we will send you a letter of apology and we will 8 do a full retraction the next day where the retraction said 9 there was not one ounce of truth in this story. 10 Q Who was the editor? 11 A I can't remember his name. 12 Q Do you remember what his position was? 13 A He was the editor. 14 Q Well, there are lots of editors at newspapers. 15 A I think he was the editor, he was the top dog. 16 Q He was the top editor? 17 A I think so. 18 Q He was the equivalent of, say, Leonard Downey at 19 the Washington Post? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Ben Bradley before that. 22 A I believe so. I believe he was the editor. They 23 were facing serious liability here. 24 Q Now, did you ask him to check into these two 25 Democrat operators who allegedly provided this information? 211 1 A I didn't have to tell him anything. I told him 2 what my story was, there wasn't a shred of truth to it, it 3 was his job to go ferret out the truth. 4 Q Do you know who these Democratic operatives were 5 that made these statements about you? 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: That assumes a fact that seems to 7 be refuted by the record. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there is a record -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, where are they 10 identified as Democratic operatives? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: The first line. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Oh, I see. I'm sorry. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you know who was being referred to? 15 A Larry, unnamed sources, believe it or not, you'll 16 never know. You don't even know if they exist. 17 Q Well, if Mr. Eisenstadt's mad enough, he may be 18 willing to tell us. Do you know where he is today? 19 A You know what? That's what I was always hoping. 20 You bet. I'm with you. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. We don't have to quarrel. 22 THE WITNESS: You bet. I'm with you. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Do you know where Mr. Eisenstadt is today? 25 A I don't have a clue. 212 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: May I inquire through the Court 2 whether there is a copy of the retraction which would 3 similarly be available through a Nexis/Lexis search put in 4 the record out of fundamental fairness? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You certainly -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You can do that. I have no problem 7 with that. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. We will amend the 9 record to put that letter in, Mr. Ben-Veniste. 10 THE WITNESS: When you pull up Nexis, it 11 automatically comes up with it. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You don't have it here, 13 Mr. Klayman? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I do not have it here. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I can have my secretary pull it 16 up, Mr. Ben-Veniste. 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Thank you, Your Honor. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. McAuliffe, did you ever ask for the names of 20 these Democratic operatives? 21 A Ask who? 22 Q Anyone. Have you ever tried to find out who they 23 were? 24 A Unnamed sources, you don't even know if they exist. 25 Q Do you know how the editor at the New York Daily 213 1 News sought to confirm the truth or lack of truth of this 2 story? 3 A I think that the reporter was fired for writing the 4 article, for not sourcing it correctly or however they do it, 5 to the point that they had to do a full retraction and 6 apologize in the retraction for writing the article, which is 7 very rare in this business. 8 Q You are very knowledgeable in terms of the media, 9 correct? 10 A No, I'm not. 11 Q But you do read U.S. News and World Report and 12 other publications from time to time? 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. Irrelevant. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Are you aware that Mr. Zuckerman has fired others 17 for being critical of the Clinton Administration? 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. Irrelevant. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. Hasn't this 20 gone far enough? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Do you know whether anyone sought to do an 24 investigation as to whether or not the statements made in 25 this article were true or not? 214 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Beyond the scope. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 Are you aware of any investigation of anyone into 4 the truth or falsity of the representations made about you, 5 Mr. McAuliffe? 6 THE WITNESS: I assume everybody thought it was a 7 joke, as I had, sir. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 9 THE WITNESS: When you get a retraction like I 10 got -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, in all due respect, Your Honor, 12 not to argue with the witness, but the fact that there was a 13 retraction may or may not mean it was true or not. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't know, but -- 15 THE WITNESS: Larry, I'm trying to make it simple. 16 I don't know John Huang. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold it. Time. Please. I think 18 we've -- 19 THE WITNESS: Gosh. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Given what the article says and 21 the fact it was retracted, Mr. Klayman, I think we should 22 really move on because basically it is -- as I understand it, 23 the representations made in here by Mr. Eisenstadt were 24 withdrawn and I thought the purpose of a retraction was to 25 say as if the thing did not exist in the first place. 215 1 THE WITNESS: Correct. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Your Honor -- 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So I could see why it would be 4 legitimate for you to inquire, as you just have, who these 5 sources of this information might be, because you might wish 6 to have discovery from them. But once we've done that, I 7 think we've exhausted it, given the fact it was retracted by 8 its author. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't intend to go much further, 10 Your Honor, but -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's like a vacated judicial 12 opinion. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, actually, no, because the 14 judicial system with all of its flaws of which I'm a part, I 15 might add, is not like a newspaper. A newspaper may or may 16 not retract something based on the truthfulness of it. This 17 is -- the fact that Mort Zuckerman ordered a retraction does 18 not mean that the reporter agreed with that retraction or in 19 fact that it was a genuine retraction. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So be it. But what does that -- 21 but Mr. McAuliffe can't possibly speak to -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: He's a big player in the Democratic 23 Party. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please. Mr. McAuliffe can't speak 25 to that and whether Zuckerman owns whatever he owns and does 216 1 whatever he does is of little moment to our case. Please 2 move on, Mr. Klayman. 3 THE WITNESS: Larry, I don't know -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe. Mr. McAuliffe. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't need any help. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you ever discussed Mr. John Huang with Mickey 9 Kantor? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know whether or not Mickey Kantor's law 12 firm, Manatt Phelps, ever represented the Lippo Group or 13 LippoBank, which was Mr. Huang's former employer? 14 A I have no idea. Don't know who their clients are 15 or were. 16 Q Did you ever discuss John Huang with a Peter Kelly? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know who Peter Kelly is? 19 A There's two. 20 Q Right. Well, is there a Democrat Peter Kelly? 21 A They're both. 22 Q They're both Democrats. Look at the last -- just 23 for purposes of identification, Your Honor -- the second to 24 the last paragraph, the Peter Kelly that's referred to in 25 that paragraph, can you place him as to where he -- 217 1 A Where? 2 Q The second to the last paragraph on the page. 3 A This is the same article. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The fundraiser named Peter Kelly. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The second paragraph from the 7 bottom. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. He was one of my old law 9 partners. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What was the name of that law firm? 12 A McAuliffe, Kelly & Raffali. 13 Q Do you know whether Mr. Kelly had any contact with 14 Mickey Kantor concerning John Huang? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know whether Tony Coelho has ever had 17 contact with John Huang? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you know whether he's ever engaged in 20 fundraising activities with John Huang? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you know whether your former partner, Peter 23 Kelly, ever was instrumental in bringing John Huang to a DNC 24 fundraiser? 25 A No. 218 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, in the exchange of 2 objections and such, I don't know if I asked this question or 3 not. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you know where Dave Eisenstadt is today? 6 A You did ask that. 7 Q The reporter. 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Have you seen his name appear in any publications? 10 A No. 11 Q Have you ever heard of anybody by the name of David 12 Friedson, F-r-i-e-d-s-o-n? 13 A I believe that's the name I saw on a memo shown to 14 me by my counsel. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I might as well show it to you. 16 The next exhibit. 17 THE COURT REPORTER: 16. 18 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 19 16 was marked for identification.) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q This is a letter of July 25, 1994 to Melissa Moss 22 from Terry McAuliffe. Okay. Now, Ms. Moss at the time was 23 director of Office of Business Liaison at the Commerce 24 Department, correct? 25 A Correct. 219 1 Q This document consists of first the letter which I 2 just identified and a memorandum behind it of July 25th, the 3 following day, 1994, from Terry McAuliffe, re: Belvin and 4 David Friedson to Melissa Moss, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Let's start with the first document, the July 25, 7 1994 letter from you to Melissa Moss. You were writing to 8 Melissa Moss to recommend Mr. Friedson on a trade mission to 9 China, correct? 10 A That's what it looks like. 11 Q Is that what you were doing? 12 A It's certainly what it looks like here. 13 Q Is that what you did? 14 A I don't believe the letter was sent, but it looks 15 like a draft was presented to my office. 16 Q What makes you think the letter was never sent? 17 A Well, there's no signed copies of this anywhere. 18 It's not initialled or signed. As I say, in many instances, 19 the staff would send letters in to the finance chair's office 20 to act upon. They would go up through the finance director's 21 office and then over to my office. 22 This looks like it's two -- they say the identical 23 thing, so it looks like they were draft form and there's 24 nothing in there that is signed, so I have no recollection of 25 ever having sent these. But they certainly could have gone, 220 1 but I have no recollection of it. 2 Q At the time that this letter was presented to you, 3 were you aware that the DNC Managing Trustee Program was 4 offering seats on trade missions for $100,000 contributions? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 THE WITNESS: They were offering to go on our trips 8 to Paris or whatever DNC events. It had nothing to do with 9 Commerce trips. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What makes you so sure of that? 12 A Because I went on one of the trips. 13 Q And when was that trip to Paris? 14 A Some time in '94. 15 Q January, correct? 16 A I don't know. Some time in '94. 17 Q And this letter is in July, correct? 18 A Which letter, this? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 21 Q You don't know of any DNC trip to China, do you? 22 A No. Un-uh. 23 Q And none was ever planned, correct? 24 A A DNC donor trip? 25 Q To China? 221 1 A No. No. 2 Q And you're writing to the Commerce Department, 3 correct? 4 A A draft was presented to my office. As I say, I 5 have no knowledge that this was sent. It is unsigned. The 6 memo is not initialled, which I would have initialled it, so 7 I believe to the best of my recollection this was never sent. 8 This could have come up through the staff. As I say, many, 9 many documents, Larry, were sent to my office for my 10 signature. Half of them never made it out of my office. 11 Q Did you have a computer at the DNC? 12 A I didn't. My staff did. 13 Q Did you ever use a typewriter to type out letters? 14 A Me, personally? 15 Q Yes. 16 A No. No. 17 Q Who on your staff would do that? 18 A Jason Mackintosh. 19 Q Did Jason Mackintosh take dictation? 20 A No, he didn't know how to take dictation. 21 Q You would tell him what to write sometimes and he 22 would draft it for him? 23 A Generally, these were put together by the staff for 24 my signature. When I say staff, I'm talking 30 or 40 people 25 inside that would put together a letter and ask for me to 222 1 sign it. Some of those made it, some of those didn't. 2 Q Would this have been put together by Ari Swiller, 3 for example? 4 A Could have. I don't know. 5 Q Did you receive letters prepared by him -- 6 A Oh, sure. Everybody. 7 Q -- to be signed to go over to the Commerce 8 Department? 9 A I don't know about to the Commerce Department, but 10 all the time they sent letters, they wanted my signature, to 11 mail to a donor to ask for a contribution or whatever. But 12 it didn't come from just Ari, it came from every different 13 department and different clubs. 14 Q Look at the second page. 15 A Okay. 16 Q This is from you to Melissa Moss. 17 A Right. 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: This is the second page of 19 something that you have marked as one exhibit? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. I identified it. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q It's Bates number 3322563, DNC. Re: Belvin and 23 David Friedson. Correct? You prepared or had prepared this 24 memorandum to Ms. Moss, correct? 25 A No. I just stated no. It was prepared by somebody 223 1 on the staff who hoped I would send it. I've just said it 2 three different ways. 3 Q Have you ever had contact with David Friedson? 4 A As we sit here today, I can't tell you who David 5 Friedson is. 6 Q He was a donor, however, correct? 7 A He could have been. He or Belvin Friedson could 8 have been a donor. Sure. To the best of my recollection, I 9 think Belvin was. I'm not sure about David. 10 Q Have you ever talked to any Democratic National 11 Committee council about these two documents, the letter of 12 July 25, 1994 and the memorandum of July 25, 1994 that I just 13 identified to you? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you ever talk to anyone other than 16 Mr. Ben-Veniste about them? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you get a copy of this document from 19 Ms. Braswell? 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: We established that I showed it 21 to him, that I received it from Ms. Braswell. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Have you ever had any conversations with 24 Ms. Braswell? 25 A No, I met her today here for the first time. 224 1 Q Or anybody from the Department of Justice? 2 A No. 3 Q About this case? 4 A No. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 6 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 7 THE COURT REPORTER: 17. 8 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 9 17 was marked for identification.) 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Excuse me. Are you finished with 11 this exhibit? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: For the moment. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: May I inquire through the Court 14 whether there is any enclosed biographical information that 15 was a supplement to either of these draft documents? 16 THE WITNESS: Good point. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We've never seen it, if there is, 18 Mr. Ben-Veniste. We've seen this document in several 19 depositions. I don't know the answer to your question. 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You're referring to it as a 21 document only because it has been stapled together and marked 22 as a document. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But inquiry has been made about it 24 of other witnesses and no one has ever, to my recollection, 25 told us whether there was biographical information attached 225 1 to this. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Thank you, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're welcome, Mr. Ben-Veniste. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q This is a memorandum from Sally Painter to Melissa 6 Moss re: OBL Weekly Activities. Have you ever seen this 7 document before? It consists of eight pages. 8 A No. 9 Q August 6, 1993. 10 A No. 11 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, the record should 12 reflect these are two documents, separate documents, that 13 have been put together by Mr. Klayman. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll go through them. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Look at the bottom of the second page, "Private 17 Sector Outreach," subsection D. 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q "Business/Congressional District List: We 20 contacted Rick Boylan of the DNC about the possibility of 21 creating a list of businesses within each congressional 22 district." 23 Do you know a Rick Boylan? 24 A No. 25 Q Have you ever heard of him? 226 1 A No. 2 Q "Rick ran the idea past Alice Travis," have you 3 ever heard of Alice Travis? 4 A Yes. 5 Q "Director of Intergovernmental and DNC Affairs, and 6 she balked at it as being too cumbersome on DNC staff." 7 How did you get to know Alice Travis? 8 A I believe she was at the DNC the same time I was. 9 She's actually married to Jack Germond. Or dates Jack 10 Germond, I think. 11 Q Of the Baltimore Sun? 12 A Yes. Right. 13 Q What did Alice Travis do at the DNC? 14 A I don't know. She was in the political division. 15 Q Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 16 or not lists of companies were drawn up by the Democratic 17 National Committee to provide to the Commerce Department? 18 A No. 19 Q Turn to the last page of this document. It starts 20 a different memorandum, "Office of Business Liaison Bi-Weekly 21 Review #13 to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter, January 24, 22 1994," the very last page of that document -- 23 A Okay. 24 Q Subpart F under section "XII. Miscellaneous." 25 "I will be meeting with Eric Silden of the DNC on 227 1 1/24 to discuss key business types that we want for the 2 database and other interactions that should take place." 3 Do you know an Eric Silden who worked for the DNC? 4 A Yes. We've been through this a couple of times, 5 but, yes. 6 Q Is he still there? 7 A I don't think he is. 8 Q And what division did he work in? 9 A He was down in the chairman's office. 10 Q Were you aware at the time that you were at the DNC 11 that there was a database of key business types? 12 A No. 13 Q Have you become aware of that since then? 14 A No. 15 Q When you were at the DNC, did you have any 16 knowledge as to whether or not there were databases that 17 were at the DNC accessible by the White House or vice 18 versa? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever heard of a database by the name of 21 Big Brother? 22 A No. 23 Q Have you ever heard of a database by the name of 24 WHODB? 25 A No. 228 1 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not DNC 2 databases listed participation on Commerce Department trade 3 missions? 4 A No. 5 Q Have you ever heard anyone discuss that? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you know whether Eric Silden played a role in 8 recommending DNC donors to go on Commerce Department trade 9 missions? 10 A No. 11 Q You don't know one way or the other? 12 A I do not. He didn't work for me. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think we should give our 14 reporter a break. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record 17 at 3:31. 18 (A brief recess was taken.) 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record 20 at 3:43. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 22 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 23 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 18. 24 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 25 18 was marked for identification.) 229 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q This is a document of April 19, 1994 to Tracey 3 Rancifer, Contacts for Latin America. 4 Have you ever seen this document before? 5 A No. 6 Q Who is Tracey Rancifer? 7 A Never heard of her. 8 Q Do you know whether she works at the Commerce 9 Department or not? 10 A Never heard of her. 11 Q Do you know any of this people listed on this 12 document? It spans Exhibits 3331984 to 3331986 13 A What's your question, Larry? 14 Q Do you know any of the people on this list? 15 A I have met Mr. Bertsch. 16 Q Is that Mr. Bertsch of Metrosound U.S.A.? 17 A Yes. Mm-hmm. 18 Q Is he a donor to the Democratic Party? 19 A I think he has, yes, attended some events. I don't 20 know if he was in one of the clubs, I think he attended some 21 events. 22 Q Do you know whether he went on a trade mission? 23 A I don't know. The other names I don't recall. 24 Mr. Portes, I recognize his name. I've met 25 Carlos Portes. 230 1 Q Is a donor to the Democratic Party? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Heavy donor? 4 A I think he gave $50,000, which is pretty good. 5 Q Do you know how much Mr. Bertsch gave? 6 A I don't. I don't know if he gave anything. He may 7 have attended $1000 events. 8 Q All right. 9 A Mr. Ellis, I don't know. Mr. James, I know. 10 Lewis, I don't know. Marquez, I don't know. Portes, I do. 11 Mr. Richard Park, I know. He's a donor, I think $10,000 12 maybe. Jim Rivera, I don't believe I know. Mr. Rodriguez, I 13 don't believe I know. And Shirley Young, I don't believe I 14 know. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 16 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 17 THE COURT REPORTER: 19. 18 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 19 19 was marked for identification.) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q This is a document dated March 30, 1994, again 22 going to Tracey Rancifer, Minority Exporters. 23 Do you know any of the people on this list? 24 A There's Mr. Bertsch again. There's Mr. Park again. 25 That's it. 231 1 Q Was Mr. Park on that earlier list? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And, again, you don't know who Tracey Rancifer is 4 or whether she works at the Commerce Department? 5 A Never heard of her. 6 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 7 A No. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark as Exhibit 20. 10 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 11 20 was marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Exhibit 20 consists of three pages, 4303326, 14 4303306, 4309631. It's headed "Donor File Notes." 15 Have you ever seen this document before? 16 A No. 17 Q Have you ever seen documents configured this way 18 before? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever seen fundraising reports generated by 21 computer at the Democratic National Committee that look like 22 this? 23 A No. 24 Q Have you ever seen documents generated by a 25 computer from anywhere that look like this? 232 1 A No. 2 Q This is a document which comes out of the 3 Democratic National Committee. It was produced in the 4 various proceedings concerning campaign finance. 5 Is that funny? 6 A It is funny. 7 Q Why is that? 8 A You've got Ronald Reagan's National Security 9 Advisor on here, you've got Al Haig who was chief of staff. 10 I think it's pretty funny. Yes. I didn't know they were 11 donors to the party. 12 Q Well, they probably want some favors, I guess, huh? 13 A I guess. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Okay. Gentlemen, please 15 let's go. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Okay. Well, look at -- 18 A And Fuller, he's the head of the Heritage 19 Foundation. 20 Q Well, are you aware that Al Haig represents Cosco, 21 the Chinese shipping company that tried to purchase the Port 22 of Long Beach? 23 A I have no idea. 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I can't sit here and hear 25 anything bad about Al Haig. Please. 233 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go on. 2 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what Al Haig does or 3 doesn't do. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Gentlemen. Let's go 5 on to the second page. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Well, there's something 7 on the first page, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q See in the middle of the page it says "Singleton 12 McAllister." 13 Do you know Singleton McAllister? 14 A No. 15 Q It says "Commerce mission." 16 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 17 the DNC was inserting its donors on Commerce Department trade 18 missions? 19 A No. No. 20 Q Look at the bottom of the page, "Several Commerce 21 missions." 22 Does that refresh your recollection? 23 A No. 24 Q Middle of the page, "Tony Coelho." 25 He's a good friend of yours, isn't he? 234 1 A Very close friend. 2 Q And you are aware that -- where does Mr. Coelho 3 current work, Wertheim Schroder, is it? 4 A Oh, no. He sold out of that a couple of years ago. 5 Q Okay. But when he was at Wertheim Schroder, you 6 are aware that he recommended the head of Wertheim Schroder 7 to go on a Commerce Department trade mission? 8 A I didn't, but terrific. He's right there between 9 the head of the Heritage Foundation and Al Haig. He's in 10 very good company. Very prominent Republicans. It's a good 11 group. 12 Q Looking down at the bottom of the first page, it 13 says "Several Commerce missions." 14 Do you know what that's referring to? 15 A No. 16 Q Look at the second page. 17 A Okay. 18 Q It says two-thirds of the way down, "Commerce South 19 Africa trip." 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q You are aware that donors were recommended on the 22 South Africa trip by the DNC? 23 A I was not. 24 Q Does that refresh your recollection? 25 A No. 235 1 Q Look at where it says "Charlie Trie Little Rock." 2 A Mm-hmm. 3 Q Do you know what that's in reference to? 4 A Maybe he's doing business with Fuller and Al Haig 5 and Dick Allen. They're working on the Reagan library 6 together, for all I know. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right, Mr. McAuliffe. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, they're on the same sheet, 9 Your Honor. Just to show how ridiculous this is. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Now, from time to time, Republicans do make 12 contributions to the Democratic Party, right? 13 A I would bet my whole mortgage that Dick Allen and 14 Al Haig have never contributed to the Democratic Party. I 15 would bet you 100 bucks right here, Larry. Or Ed Fuller. 16 Q But you don't know that for a fact, do you? 17 A No. But I'd bet. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, I know you're not 19 the kind of gentleman that would ever hang around a 20 racetrack, but did you ever hear the expression "lay off on 21 both sides"? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And there are people in this town 24 who lay off on both sides, right? 25 THE WITNESS: Not these guys, sir. 236 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But there are guys, right? 2 THE WITNESS: Oh, no. No question. Trust me, 3 Your Honor, not these guys. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Hedging your bets, right, Your Honor? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: He's pretty tight with his money, 7 Judge, I can confirm that, and if he's willing to bet, it's 8 not likely. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Is he a client, Mr. Ben-Veniste? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Keep going, gentlemen. 11 THE WITNESS: It's Ben-Veniste. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Ben-Veniste. Do you want to strike 13 this in the record? He may not appreciate that. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's go. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Look at the third page. At the top, it refers to 17 "Larry Bowles." It gives a phone number in Washington, D.C., 18 Halliburton. Is that a company, Halliburton? 19 A I have no idea. I have never heard of Larry 20 Bowles. 21 Q Do you know who -- reading the insert there, 22 "Halliburton, 1/25:1m, RNC Gala committee, the CEO went to 23 Russia with Ron Brown; 2/1:spoke to Larry and he's looking 24 at it/processing. 2/6:c/b; 2/7:not going to happen, and 25 the RNC $$ came from Dick Cheney's old Presidential campaign 237 1 coffers." 2 A Are you sure you've got the right documents, Larry? 3 Q Right from the Democratic National Committee. 4 A Hot dang. How your staff got this one -- okay. 5 Q Now you know we're non-partisan. 6 A Yes. I don't know Larry Bowles. I'm sorry. Don't 7 know. 8 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 9 or not donors to the Republican Party also donated to the 10 Democratic Party to go on the trade missions? 11 A No. 12 Q In fact, you heard Ron Brown say that, didn't you? 13 That many of the people that go on these trade missions gave 14 to both parties? 15 A I did not hear that. 16 Q Do you know why the DNC would be listing 17 participation in Commerce Department trade missions on its 18 computer printouts? 19 A No. 20 Q During the time that you were at the DNC, did you 21 ever view or use Democratic National Committee databases? 22 A Did I personally? No. 23 Q Do you know of others who did? 24 A No. 25 Q You are aware they did have databases, though, 238 1 aren't you? 2 A I'm sure we kept very good records for our FEC 3 compliance of who gave us money. 4 Q Did you play any role in making sure that the 5 reporting to the FEC was accurate? 6 A No. It was the treasurer's job and legal and 7 others. 8 Q Have you ever been questioned about anything 9 concerning the campaign finance scandal by anyone at the FEC? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know of anyone who has? 12 A No. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 14 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 15 THE COURT REPORTER: 21. 16 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 17 21 was marked for identification.) 18 THE WITNESS: Al Haig. Thank you, Larry. That 19 didn't work out too good for you. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me? 21 THE WITNESS: Nothing. Let's hope this one hasn't 22 has Republican names. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: What did you say? 24 THE WITNESS: I said the last one didn't work out 25 too well, let's hope there's not too many Republicans on this 239 1 sheet. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: For me? 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Whatever you're trying to 4 accomplish. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't care. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's keep going. 7 Please. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q I'm showing you this exhibit. Have you ever seen 10 it before? 11 A No. I can't read any of the names. Everything 12 is -- it's not a good Xerox job, Larry. 13 Q This is a document which was found in Commerce 14 Department files, although not produced -- which comes from 15 Commerce Department files, although not produced from the 16 Commerce Department. 17 A Mm-hmm. 18 Q And it refers to certain companies. Can you tell 19 me whether any of the companies on this you've ever generated 20 any campaign contributions from? Let's just do the first 21 page by way of example. 22 A Okay. No. No. No. No. No. No. 23 Q Just list the ones that you have played a role in 24 generating -- 25 A All right. The first 20, no. I know the people at 240 1 ATT. None of the other names. No. No. No. No. No. No. 2 No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. 3 No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Not really 4 any of them, Larry. I'm sorry. 5 Q This document, by the way, was generated by the DNC 6 but it comes out of Commerce files. 7 A Okay. 8 Q Look at the right-hand column. 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q Do you see where it lists -- looking down a William 11 Blount? 12 A Mm-hmm. 13 Q Trustee? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Does that refer to the DNC Managing Trustee 16 Program? 17 A I have no idea. I've never seen this document 18 before. I can't answer one way or the other. 19 Q Are you aware as to whether or not DNC donor 20 files were ever found in the files of the Department of 21 Commerce? 22 A No. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 24 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 25 THE COURT REPORTER: 22. 241 1 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 2 22 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q This document consists of 21 pages. 5 A Okay. 6 Q Have you ever seen it before? 7 A No. 8 Q During the time you were with the Democratic 9 National Committee, they kept minority donor lists, correct? 10 A Not to my knowledge. 11 Q Did they keep donor lists based on certain 12 objective criteria, such as if you were a member of a 13 minority, you were a member of a certain religion or a 14 certain ethnicity? 15 A Not to my knowledge. 16 Q Do you know any of the people on this list? Let's 17 start with the first page. 18 A Okay. No. No. No. 19 Q Just -- you don't have to keep saying no, just -- 20 A Well, I'm just looking here. 21 Q Anybody that you see. 22 A I don't recognize any name on the first page. 23 I don't recognize any name on the second page. 24 Chairman's Circle -- I don't even know what that 25 is. I'm not sure what this list is. I've never even heard 242 1 of it. Chairman's Circle, I don't even know what that is. I 2 don't think this is a -- I don't know what it is. I don't 3 know any of these names. 4 Q The next page, starting with Ethel S. Barnett. 5 A No. No. No. No. No. No. 6 Q The next page, starting with Deryl McKissack 7 Cappell. 8 A No. No. No. No. No. No. There's Johnny 9 Cochran. 10 Q Do you know Johnny? 11 A I mean, I know him from TV. I don't know him 12 personally. 13 Q Did he ever give money to the Democratic Party? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q The next page, Honorable Garnet F. Coleman. 16 A No. No. No. No. No. No. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In the interests of time, perhaps, 18 Mr. McAuliffe, could you take a second and read through the 19 list and just tell us -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a good idea, Your Honor. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Terrific. 22 Here's Quincy Jones, I don't know him personally, 23 but he's a big, you know, entertainment guy. 24 Ron Lester, I know the name, I've seen him around, 25 don't know exactly what he does. 243 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Democrat donor? 3 A I believe so. 4 Frank Brooks, I recognize the name as a donor. 5 Carol Thompson Cole, I recognize the name. 6 Q Did any of these people go on trade missions? 7 A I have no idea. 8 Rodney Ellis, I recognize -- he was a state 9 senator, I guess. 10 Q Also a donor? 11 A I don't know. Could be. 12 Earl Graves, I know Earl. 13 Q A donor? 14 A I don't know. 15 Ernie Green I know. 16 Q A donor? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Pretty influential donor, correct? 19 A Ernie? What do you mean by -- define influential. 20 Q Somebody that has some political clout. 21 A Well, everybody -- you know, if you give a dollar, 22 you're important. I mean, our president's open to everybody, 23 we don't exclude anybody with their amount. 24 Sheila Johnson is Bob Johnson's wife who owns Black 25 Entertainment Television. I know Bob and Sheila. 244 1 Q And they're donors? 2 A Yes. You bet. 3 Tony Jones I know. 4 Q Donors? 5 A Donors. 6 Q Just say if you know them and they're donors. 7 A Okay. I mean, sometimes you get on because you 8 help raise money, too. You may not necessarily be a donor, 9 but you're active. 10 Ruby McZier. Donor. 11 Q And who is she with? 12 A National Business Services. Very prominent black 13 woman here in Washington. She's on the Airport Authority. 14 Marianne Spraggins I know. Donor. 15 Clarence Avant I've met, who is chairman of Motown 16 Records. Donor. 17 Jim Gilliam from Beneficial I know. Donor. 18 Bob Johnson I spoke to before. Donor. 19 Maxine Leftwich I know. Donor. 20 Bill Lucy, who now works for -- used to be up in 21 the mayor of New York. Donor. 22 Richard Mays. Donor. 23 That's about it. 24 Q Is there a category at the Democratic National 25 Committee donors called DNC Friends? 245 1 A No, not to my knowledge. 2 Q Have you ever heard of a category of donors in any 3 context called DNC Friends? 4 A No. 5 Q Have you ever heard of anything called Chairman's 6 Circle? 7 A No. D triple C has been called the Chairman's 8 Council. 9 Q What is D triple C? 10 A Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. But 11 not circle. 12 Q You've heard of the National Finance Council. 13 A Yes. 14 Q And what is that? 15 A That is -- individuals can be a member of that by 16 donating -- I believe it's $5000 a year. 17 Q A member of the Democratic National Committee? 18 A What? 19 Q A member of the Democratic National Committee? 20 A Who? 21 Q Well, it's run by the Democratic National 22 Committee. 23 A Yes. It's a donor club of the Democratic National 24 Committee. 25 Q Okay. And Business Leadership Forum, what is the 246 1 minimum contribution for that? 2 A Once again, it's 10. 3 Q Okay. Do you know whether or not Ernie Green has 4 had any contact with Charlie Trie? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you aware that when I asked Mr. John Huang 10 whether he knew you, Terry McAuliffe, he took the Fifth 11 Amendment? 12 A I do not know that. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Is it appropriate to ask whether 14 Mr. Huang took the Fifth Amendment? 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He did so, Mr. Ben-Veniste, in a 16 public transcript. 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Was that the only name he took 18 the Fifth Amendment about or was he -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't really remember. 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Or did he assert the Fifth 21 Amendment on a general basis? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, to bring you up to date, we 23 did it on a question-by-question basis. 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: But he asserted the Fifth 25 Amendment with respect to -- 247 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: His counsel asserted it on his 2 behalf and then discussed the question and answer. 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: The suggestion perhaps being left 4 on the record that this was particular to Mr. McAuliffe. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's certainly not true. 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's not the suggestion, 8 Your Honor. That's a question. And, you know, again, every 9 opportunity that counsel has, he wants to get a dig in. I 10 don't think it's appropriate. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, that was fair. The point was 12 fair. 13 As we all -- if I may, we, you and I and 14 Ms. Braswell -- were in the room when he did that. We spent 15 the better part of eight hours listening to him take the 16 Fifth Amendment. 17 MS. BRASWELL: With respect to numerous names that 18 were put forward. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. I didn't specifically 20 remember names. 21 MS. BRASWELL: I remember a long list of names -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right. 23 MS. BRASWELL: -- to which he took the Fifth 24 Amendment. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right. 248 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you know why Mr. Huang took the Fifth Amendment 3 when I asked him whether he knew you? 4 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. In view 5 of the record -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a legitimate question, 7 Your Honor. 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: That's an absurd question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: He took the Fifth Amendment -- 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not an absurd question. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you had any contact with Alexis Herman in the 14 last three years? 15 A Yes. 16 Q In what context? 17 A I spoke to her several weeks ago. 18 Q Have you ever spoken to Alexis Herman about the 19 campaign finance scandal? 20 A No. 21 Q Have you ever spoken to her about the Independent 22 Counsel investigation that's looking into her activities? 23 A No. 24 Q Have you ever spoken to her about what her 25 activities were when she was director of the Office of Public 249 1 Liaison at the White House? 2 A No. 3 Q Have you had any contact with Leon Panetta in the 4 last three years? 5 A Don't believe I have. 6 Q Did you ever sit in on meetings where fundraising 7 was discussed in the presence of Leon Panetta? 8 A I believe, Larry, he was at that meeting that I 9 reference earlier, that March Clinton-Gore meeting. 10 Q And did Mr. Panetta say anything at that meeting? 11 A He could have asked some questions. I don't 12 recall. 13 Q Have you had any contact with John Podesta in the 14 last three years? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And what context was that? 17 A Well, he's the White House chief of staff. I see 18 him at different events and talk to him. 19 Q Have you ever talked to him about campaign 20 fundraising in the last three years? 21 A No. 22 Q Did he sit in on any meetings leading up to the 23 1996 elections concerning fundraising? 24 A I don't believe he sat in any meeting. No. 25 Q Do you know Rob Stein? 250 1 A I know who he is? 2 Q How do you know who he is? 3 A He was around the party when Ron was chairman. I 4 think he might have been chief of staff at the DNC. He had 5 some title, something with the party. 6 Q Do you know if he took a job at the Commerce 7 Department after the 1992 election success? 8 A I believe he did. I don't know what he did, but I 9 believe he did. 10 Q How did you find that out? 11 A I think I ran into Rob around town, different 12 events, I'd see him every once in a while. I'd see him maybe 13 once a year. 14 Q Did you ever talk to him about Commerce Department 15 trade missions? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you ever talk to him about taking DNC donors on 18 Commerce Department trade missions? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know William Ginsberg? 21 A The judge? 22 Q Different William Ginsberg. 23 A No. 24 Q The William Ginsberg who was Ron Brown's chief of 25 staff at the Commerce Department. 251 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know a Jill Schuker? 3 A Never heard of her. 4 Q An Ann Luzzatto? 5 A Never heard of her. 6 Q Did you ever talk to Mickey Kantor about trade 7 missions? 8 A Never. 9 Q Did you ever have conversations with Mickey Kantor 10 when he was Secretary of Commerce? 11 A Never. 12 Q Have you ever had conversations with Mickey Kantor 13 about international trade? 14 A Never. 15 Q Did you have conversations with him when he was 16 U.S. Trade Representative? 17 A Never. 18 Q Have you ever visited the Commerce Department? 19 A I don't believe I've ever been in the building. I 20 did go -- during the inaugural, they had -- the only time I 21 believe is when they had credentialing for -- I think it was 22 the '92 inaugural. They had tickets out in the lobby. But 23 never for a meeting or anything. 24 Q Are you aware of any fundraising by John Huang when 25 he was at the Commerce Department? 252 1 A No. 2 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether any 3 classified documents were ever removed from the Commerce 4 Department? 5 A No. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 7 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 8 THE COURT REPORTER: 23. 9 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 10 23 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q This is an article written by Phil Kuntz, 13 K-u-n-t-z, of the Wall Street Journal, November 13, 1996. 14 Do you know Phil Kuntz? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Have you ever talked to Phil Kuntz? 17 A Many times. 18 Q What did you talk to him about? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Did you talk to him about Democratic fundraising? 24 Ever? 25 A Yes. 253 1 Q Did you talk to him about whether or not 2 fundraising was taking place in the Asian-American community? 3 A No. 4 Q The Asian community? 5 A No. 6 Q Whether John Huang was involved in it? 7 A No. 8 Q Is there something about Mr. Kuntz's reporting that 9 caused you to be in contact with him? In other words, areas 10 that he specializes in? 11 A Reporters have questions, they'd call and ask 12 general questions. Most reporters know that I had no 13 dealings with John Huang, so they would never bother me with 14 those kind of questions. 15 Q How do they know that? 16 A Pretty common knowledge. They've all tried to 17 check it and they found out there's no basis to it. If 18 you've never met him and dealt with him, you just haven't. 19 Q Wednesday, November 13, 1996 is the date of this 20 article. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Kuntz in 21 and around this time period? 22 A I have no recollection. 23 Q The first paragraph, "John Huang was regularly in 24 contact with top Democratic fundraisers while working at the 25 Commerce Department in 1994 and 1995 and supplied names of 254 1 prospective donors in the Asian-American community." 2 That's a correct statement, is it not? 3 A I have no idea. I never spoke to John Huang. 4 Q The second paragraph -- did anyone ever tell you 5 that? 6 A No. 7 Q "Phone message slips show that during the 17 months 8 he was a top official at the department, Mr. Huang, who is at 9 the center of controversy over donations to the Democratic 10 Party, received numerous calls from about a dozen 11 fundraisers. 'We asked John for names of potential donors,' 12 said DNC spokeswoman Amy Weiss Tobe, referring to a call to 13 Mr. Huang from Air Swiller, who is in charge of rasing 14 $100,000 contributions." 15 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 16 or not John Huang supplied names of donors to Amy Weiss Tobe 17 or Ari Swiller or anyone else at the DNC? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you ever discuss these matters with any of 20 these people? 21 A No. 22 Q "Huang supplied some names, but Ms. Tobe didn't 23 know many." 24 A It's Tobe. 25 Q Tobe. "The DNC's Sam Newman," who was Sam Newman? 255 1 What was his title at the time? 2 A I think he worked at the finance council. 3 Q In November of '96? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q "Who raises $5000 donations for the party." 6 Is that the denomination for the finance council? 7 A That's, I believe, the finance council. 8 Q "Called Mr. Huang to invite him to a fundraiser 9 'and to get some names for that event as well,' Ms. Tobe 10 said." 11 Newman was working under your direction as chairman 12 at the time, correct? 13 A Not under my direction. We've been through this, 14 Larry, 68 different ways. I didn't run the staff. As much 15 as you'd like to do it. 16 Q But you were chairman at the time, correct? 17 A What time? I mean, I don't know when Sam 18 supposedly made the call. It could have been '95. I was not 19 there. Don't know the time. 20 Q The article says '94, '95. 21 A Okay. We're not sure. Maybe it was before I 22 became finance chairman, maybe it was after I became -- the 23 answer to your question is no. 24 Q Have you ever seen this article before? 25 A I don't recall reading it. 256 1 Q Do you know a David Jones, a fundraiser for House 2 Democratic leader Richard Gephardt? 3 A Very well. 4 Q How long have you known Mr. Jones? 5 A Probably known David six years. 6 Q In fact, you worked for Mr. Gephardt, correct? 7 A National finance chairman in his '88 campaign. 8 Q Right. Is that how you got to know David Jones? 9 A He wasn't there then. 10 Q It says in the second to the last paragraph, "David 11 Jones, a fundraiser for House Democratic leader Richard 12 Gephardt of Missouri, also contacted Mr. Huang several times. 13 He was 'looking for fundraising prospects,' said Laura 14 Nichols, the congressman's spokeswoman." 15 A Mm-hmm. 16 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 17 or not Huang engaged in fundraising at the Commerce 18 Department with the DNC? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know Chris Long? 21 A I don't. 22 Q Who works with Charles Robb, Senator Robb? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you know a Peter Cleveland? 25 A No. 257 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 2 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 3 THE COURT REPORTER: 24. 4 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 5 24 was marked for identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q This is an affidavit sworn to under oath by Nolanda 8 Butler Hill consisting of three pages. 9 Have you ever seen this document before? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever see Ron Brown carrying an ostrich skin 12 portfolio? 13 A A what? 14 Q An ostrich skin portfolio. 15 A Like a briefcase? 16 Q Yes. 17 A No. 18 Q Did he ever show you documents written by Melissa 19 Moss listing contributions made to the Democratic Party? 20 A No. I thought for a minute you were going to ask 21 me if he ever carried an ostrich around. I'm just -- no. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Paragraph 11, Mr. McAuliffe. 23 THE WITNESS: Number 11? 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q "In early 1996, Ron showed me a packet of documents 258 1 about one inch thick, which he removed from his ostrich skin 2 portfolio. Ron told me that these documents had been 3 provided to him from Commerce Department files as part of the 4 collection efforts to produce documents to Judicial Watch in 5 this case. I only reviewed the top five or six documents 6 which were on Commerce Department letterhead under the 7 signature of Melissa Moss of the Office of Business Liaison. 8 What I reviewed comprised letters of Ms. Moss to trade 9 mission participants, each of which specifically referenced a 10 substantial financial contribution to the Democratic National 11 Committee. My response was immediate and decisive. I told 12 Ron he must instruct that production of these documents and 13 all responsive documents be immediate and I advised him to 14 mitigate his own damages by releasing Ms. Moss from her 15 duties and admonishing her for using the offices of the 16 Commerce Department for partisan political fundraising." 17 Have you ever seen documents written by Melissa 18 Moss which reflect campaign contributions? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you talked with Melissa Moss? 21 A Hmm? 22 Q Have you had any conversations with Melissa Moss in 23 the last three years? 24 A I may have run into her once or twice, but never 25 more than hello. 259 1 Q Have you ever talked to her about her activities at 2 the Commerce Department when she worked there? 3 A No. No. 4 Q Did you know that she worked in the Office of 5 Business Liaison? 6 A Yes. 7 Q How did you know that? 8 A See her around town. I don't know how I 9 specifically knew. I didn't probably know what the name of 10 the department was. 11 Q And she told you that she participated in selecting 12 participants on trade missions? 13 A Unfortunately, Larry, she never told me that. 14 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Hoyt Zia, Z-i-a? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Ginger Lew? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Sally Esserman? 19 A No. 20 Q Barbara Fredericks? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you ever meet Ron Brown's assistants? Barbara 23 Schmitz? 24 A No. 25 Q Melanie Long? 260 1 A No. 2 Q Dalia Traynham? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Paul Donovan? 5 A There used to be a Paul Donovan that worked 6 for Senator Kennedy. I don't know if it's the same 7 one. 8 Q Have you ever met Michael Brown? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When was the first time you met Michael Brown? 11 A Five, six years ago, I guess. I don't know the 12 exact time. 13 Q Have you ever discussed with Michael Brown his 14 father's activities at the Commerce Department? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know whether or not Michael Brown was 17 indicted in the last several years? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you know what he was indicted for? 20 A Campaign contribution violations. 21 Q What was the nature of those violations? 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Isn't that a matter of public 23 record? At 4:20 on Friday afternoon -- 24 MS. BRASWELL: And outside the scope of discovery. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It certainly seems to be. 261 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I was going to tie it up, 2 Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, please do so, Mr. Klayman. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you know whether or not Michael Brown had 6 had contact with individuals by the name of Nora and 7 Gene Lum? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you know whether Nora and Gene Lum -- 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, how does that tie anything 11 to anything relevant to Mr. McAuliffe? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: There is a relationship between 13 the Lums and Trie and Huang and Chung, as I understand. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. Right. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Isn't that right, Mr. Klayman? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, that's fine. Mr. McAuliffe 18 said he didn't know the Lums. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, please don't put words in his 20 mouth. Your Honor -- 21 THE WITNESS: I did say that. 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: No, these are words which came 23 out of his mouth which you don't remember. 24 THE WITNESS: Five hours ago. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: You know, I don't understand. I'm 262 1 trying to be very cordial here today. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then let's see if we can -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: About every half an hour, there's an 4 attempt at provocation. I ask that it stop. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go forward. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I realize these documents may not be 7 pleasing, Mr. Ben-Veniste, but I'd just like to get through 8 this. 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: The redundancy is displeasing. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's go on. 11 These people named the Lums, I think the question 12 was -- 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know the Lums. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Are you aware that an individual by the name of 16 Trisha Lum worked as an assistant to Ron Brown? 17 A No. 18 Q Turn your attention to paragraph 9, "I further 19 learned through discussions with Ron that the White House, 20 through Leon Panetta and John Podesta, had instructed him to 21 delay the case by withholding the production of documents 22 prior to the 1996 elections, and to devise a way not to 23 comply with the court's orders." 24 Have you ever had any discussions with Leon Panetta 25 or John Podesta about disobeying the Court's orders in this 263 1 lawsuit, the lawsuit that you're appearing here today on? 2 A No. 3 Q Are you aware of whether or not they instructed 4 anyone to disobey this Court's orders? 5 A No. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 7 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 8 THE COURT REPORTER: 25. 9 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 10 25 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q I turn your attention -- and we can help you speed 13 it along -- 14 A Okay. 15 Q About half an inch down, there is a list of 16 participants in a presidential business development mission 17 to China and Hong Kong. 18 Can you perhaps have -- Mr. Fitton can help you 19 find it or I can help you find it. 20 MS. BRASWELL: What does it say at the top? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: What I just read. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q These are the lists of participants that went on 24 the trade mission to China in the fall of 1994. In looking 25 at these people, let's run through them, there aren't too 264 1 many of them -- 2 A Okay. 3 Q Do you know a Sam Quresney of AST Research, Inc.? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you know a Lodwick Cook of Atlantic Richfield? 6 A I know who he is. I had no dealings with him. 7 Q Is a donor of the Democratic Party? 8 A Oh, no. He's with -- I think he's chairman of the 9 Eagles. He's the chairman of the George Bush library. Are 10 you crazy? 11 Q Well, you're not saying that people don't give to 12 both political parties. 13 A I don't think Lod did. He actually was chairman of 14 the library for George Bush. 15 Q Based on what you know -- 16 A I'm sorry. The page you gave me does not have 17 these names on it. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Here -- 19 THE WITNESS: I mean, I've got Alan Herbert up 20 here. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're looking at South Africa. 22 That's -- 23 THE WITNESS: Well, he gave it -- I'm sorry. 24 Thank you. That's a different country. Different continent. 25 Okay. Sam -- no. 265 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Lodwick Cook? 3 A No. Big Republican. 4 Q Raymond Smith, Bell Atlantic? 5 A No. 6 Q Contributor to the DNC? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q You don't know one way or the other? 9 A No. 10 Q Robert Enron? 11 A No. 12 Q Chrysler Corporation? No, what? 13 A I don't know him. Don't know if he's a donor. 14 Don't know him and don't know if he's a donor. 15 Q Robert O'Neil? 16 A Don't know him, don't know if he's a donor. 17 Q George Fisher? 18 A Don't know him, don't know if he's a donor. 19 Q Edwin Lupberger? 20 A Don't know him, don't know if he's a donor. 21 Q David K. Lam? 22 A Don't know him, don't know if he's a donor. 23 Q I'm not just asking about him, but the companies. 24 A When I say that, I also refer to the companies. 25 Q Okay. David K. Lam? 266 1 A You just did that. 2 Q All right. Frederick Smith, Federal Express. 3 A I have met him, is a donor. 4 Q Leslie McCraw, Flour Corporation. 5 A Don't know her, don't know if she's a donor. 6 Q Richard Swift, Foster Wheeler Corporation? 7 A Never heard of him. 8 Q Calvin Grigsby, Grigsby, Brandford and Company? 9 A Name sounds familiar. Might be a donor. I don't 10 know. 11 Q Bernard L. Schwartz, Loral Corporation? 12 A Donor. 13 Q In fact, the biggest Democratic Party donor, 14 correct? As an individual. 15 A I think he was -- not when I was there, but I've 16 read subsequently he was a big donor. Awful nice guy. 17 Q Have you seen the recent edition of the National 18 Journal? 19 A No. 20 Q It says that he donated about $1.8 million. 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, that's very interesting. 22 So could we go on with this deposition, if Your Honor please? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, Mr. Ben-Veniste, there is a 24 connection there because there was a photograph of Schwartz 25 going on one of the trade missions, so he's pursuing some 267 1 information about that. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: But the National Review article, 3 Your Honor, seems to be tangential. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It may well be, but that's the 5 connection between Schwartz -- 6 THE WITNESS: He's a very nice gentleman. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you had contact with Bernie Schwartz? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know who has? 11 A No. 12 Q You know that Bernie Schwartz knows the President 13 quite well, correct? 14 A He knows the President, yes. 15 Q He knows the Vice President quite well, correct? 16 A I don't know that. I know he knows the President. 17 Q From 1994 to 1996, do you know of anyone who had 18 contact with Mr. Schwartz, either at the DNC or at the White 19 House, besides the President and Vice President? 20 A I don't. He was not helpful to us at the 21 Clinton-Gore campaign, so I didn't have dealings with him. 22 Q What do you mean, he wasn't helpful to you at the 23 Clinton-Gore campaign? 24 A He wasn't on our committee. 25 Q Did you ask him to be on your committee? 268 1 A I'm sure we did. 2 Q But you don't remember. 3 A I'm sure everybody got sent a letter asking them if 4 they would raise $50,000 for the campaign. 5 Q Do you have any specific information that you 6 actually asked him to sit on that committee? 7 A No. 8 Q Have you ever heard any discussions about Bernard 9 Schwartz or Loral in the context of China? 10 A No. 11 Q Have you ever heard any discussions as to whether 12 or not Loral transferred classified technology to the 13 Chinese? 14 A Just what I've seen in the newspaper. 15 Q Do you have any knowledge as to what activities Mr. 16 Schwartz engaged in on the trade mission to China? 17 A No. 18 Q The one that I'm referring to here. 19 A No. 20 Q Have you had any contact with Lockheed Corporation? 21 Lockheed Martin? 22 A They were donors, have been for a long time. 23 Q Are you aware that Lockheed Martin owns Loral? 24 A I know they own -- I think it's a small piece of 25 them. I don't think they own him. 269 1 Q Lockheed Martin is a large donor to the Democratic 2 Party? 3 A I don't think large. They have been donors, yes. 4 Q Next person? 5 A Never heard of him. 6 Q Yia Eason, I guess it is. 7 A Never heard of him. 8 Q K.S. Wu, Pacific Century Group? 9 A Never heard of him. 10 Q Do you know whether these people were donors? 11 A If I've never heard of them, it would also state 12 that I don't know if they gave any money. 13 Q George Harvey, Pitney Bowes. 14 A Never heard of him. 15 Q Sanford Robertson, Robertson, Stephens & Company. 16 A Heard of them. Donated, I believe, in 1992. I 17 don't think, to the best of my recollection, gave money after 18 that. 19 Q What is Robertson, Stephens & Company? 20 A It's a big investment banking -- it funds high 21 tech -- venture capital for high tech firms. 22 Q Robert Denham of Salomon, Inc. 23 A No. 24 Q John Bryson of SCE Corporation. 25 A No. 270 1 Q William Esrey of Sprint Corporation? 2 A Know him and has been a supporter. 3 Q Large contributor? 4 A Not large, no, but a supporter. 5 Q Susan Corrales-Dias, Systems Integrated. 6 A Never heard of her. 7 Q James Trebig, Tandem Computers, Inc. 8 A Never heard of him. 9 Q Joseph Gorman, TRW, Inc. 10 A Never heard of him. 11 Q James Harmon, Wertheim, Schroder & Company. 12 A Know him, supporter. 13 Q In fact, that's where Coelho worked, right? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Michael Jordan, Westinghouse Electric Corporation. 16 A No. Are we done with this, Larry? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. For the moment. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever hear of a company called Entergy 21 Corporation? 22 A I think I have. Are they out of Arkansas? 23 Q Yes. 24 A Yes. 25 Q They're donors? 271 1 A I believe so. 2 Q Have you had any personal contact with them? 3 A Who's the head of the company? If you could help 4 me -- 5 Q Edwin Lupberger. 6 A No. 7 Q Are you aware that they went on a Commerce 8 Department trade mission to China? 9 A No. 10 Q Are you aware that John Huang's former employer, 11 Lippo Group, had a joint venture negotiation with the Chinese 12 during the trade mission to China? 13 A No, I did not. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you a document which I'll 15 ask the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: 26. 17 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 18 26 was marked for identification.) 19 THE WITNESS: Why do you keep looking at him, 20 Larry? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me? 22 THE WITNESS: You keep looking at Richard here. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I just don't want him to get upset. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Showing you this document, this is a Commerce 272 1 Department document, June 6, 1994 to Sally, Sally Painter, 2 from Kathy. 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Q "Openings for events sponsored by Delegation 5 Members: 6/26, 1 p.m., Rio, Lunch to be hosted by Corporate 6 Donor. (This lunch will follow a business round 7 table/briefing after the delegation arrives. Post has 8 identified a tentative location.)" 9 Then there's another listing below that, "6/26, 10 9 p.m., Sao Paulo, Dinner to be Hosted by Corporate Donor." 11 Were you aware of any coordination between the 12 Democratic National Committee and the Commerce Department to 13 have dinners to host corporate donors on trade missions to 14 Latin America? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know of anyone who might have that 17 information? 18 A No. 19 Q When you started to work at the Democratic National 20 Committee, did you get any kind of training on how to retain 21 documents? 22 A Did I? 23 Q Yes. 24 A No. That was a staff level issue. 25 Q Do you know of any program that are even at the 273 1 staff level that teach employees how to keep and retain 2 documents? 3 A I would not be part of that. That would be 4 on the staff level. I don't know what they did or did 5 not do. 6 Q Was there any policy to destroy documents after a 7 certain period of time? 8 A I have no idea. 9 Q When you were at the Democratic National Committee, 10 did you ever see at the committee either the President or 11 Mrs. Clinton? 12 A I don't believe they ever came over. 13 Q Did you ever see Vice President Gore there? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did you sit in on meetings -- did he come over to 16 talk about fundraising issues? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know an individual by the name of Howard 19 Glicken? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How do you know Howard Glicken? 22 A Active Democratic fundraiser through the years. 23 Q And he's out of Miami? 24 A Yes. 25 Q He's close with Marvin Rosen, I take it? 274 1 A Yes. They're all part of the Miami fundraising 2 group. 3 Q And has Mr. Glicken ever gone on a trade mission? 4 A I have no idea. 5 Q Do you know whether he ever recommended anyone to 6 go on a trade mission? 7 A I don't. 8 Q Do you know anyone out of Miami who has gone on a 9 trade mission of the Commerce Department? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know in individual by the name of Hugh 12 Rodham? 13 A Yes. 14 Q How do you know him? 15 A He's the First Lady's brother. 16 Q Has he ever participated with you in fundraising? 17 A No. 18 Q Has he ever done anything related to fundraising? 19 A I don't believe has. Not to be negative on Hugh, 20 but I don't believe he has. 21 Q What's funny about Hugh making you laugh? 22 A Well, I don't want him to think I don't think he's 23 been helpful, I think he ran for the Senate in '94 when I was 24 there, so he did his own thing. 25 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Amy Sistook? 275 1 A Amy Zizzick? 2 Q Yes. 3 A I know the name. 4 Q Who is she in terms of her past business 5 experience? 6 A I don't really know her well. I've met her a 7 couple of times. She worked for Rom Emmanuel in the '92 8 campaign. And then she went and worked in the White House. 9 I can't tell you which department. 10 Q She worked under Alexis Herman, correct? 11 A I don't know that. 12 Q Okay. I asked you earlier, I may have cut you off 13 if you knew a Paul Donovan and you were kind of searching 14 your recollection at the time. 15 A There was -- I think his name was Paul Donovan who 16 is Ted Kennedy's chief of staff. 17 Q Do you know whether he ever had any -- has he ever 18 worked for the DNC? 19 A I don't think he did. Not to my knowledge. He may 20 have. 21 Q Did he ever work at the Commerce Department? 22 A I don't know. I believe he's Ted Kennedy's chief 23 of staff. 24 Q Do you know whether or not Ted Kennedy ever 25 received monies generated by John Huang? 276 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know whether or not Senator John Glenn ever 3 did? 4 A No. 5 Q Senator Robert Torricelli? 6 A No. 7 Q Senator Carl Levin? 8 A No. 9 Q Senator Don Nickels? 10 A No. 11 Q Senator Mitch McConnell? 12 A No. 13 Q Are you aware of any monies that were brought into 14 the Democratic National Committee by John Huang? 15 A No. 16 Q Are you aware of any monies brought into the 17 Democratic National Committee by the Lippo Group? 18 A No. 19 Q An individual by the name of Pauline Kanchanalak? 20 A I have met Pauline Kanchanalak. She had been a 21 donor to the party. 22 Q Where did you meet her? 23 A I think she was at DNC events. 24 Q Which events were they? 25 A I can't tell you. I can't tell you specifically 277 1 which event. 2 Q Did you or anyone that you know of specifically 3 engage in fundraising with Ms. Kanchanalak? 4 A I personally did not and I do not know on the staff 5 who dealt with her, but she was around. 6 Q Do you know the source of any monies that she 7 brought into the Democratic National Committee? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Maria Hsia, 10 H-s-i-a? 11 A I've never had any dealings. I'm not sure 12 I've ever met the woman. I've read about her, obviously. 13 Q Do you know anybody else who has dealt with her? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you know whether she ever brought monies into 16 the Democratic National Committee? 17 A To my knowledge, no. I don't believe I've met her. 18 Q Have you ever met James or Mochtar Riady? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know of anyone who has? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you ever had any contact, direct or indirect, 23 with the Riady's group, the Lippo Group? 24 A None. 25 Q Have you ever had any contact with any individuals 278 1 out of Indonesia? 2 A None. 3 Q During the time that you worked for the Democratic 4 National Committee, was there ever any concern about money 5 coming in from foreign nationals? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Have you ever had any contact, direct or indirect, 10 with General Ji Shengde? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q That's spelled J-i, new word S-h-e-n-g-d-e, chief 16 of military intelligence. 17 A No. 18 Q A Jung Wang Kao? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 (Pause.) 23 THE WITNESS: I'm glad you're laughing. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm only laughing at you. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, thank you. 279 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever had any contact, direct or indirect, 3 with a Mark Brodmeyer? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you know of anyone who has? 6 A No. 7 Q Mark Middleton? 8 A I know Mark. 9 Q How did you get to know Mark? 10 A He was involved in the '92 campaign and DNC '92. 11 Then he went to work for Mack McLarty in the White House. I 12 see him around town. 13 Q Do you know whether Mark Middleton ever had any 14 contact with John Huang? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know whether Mark Middleton participated in 17 any way in Department of Commerce trade missions? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you know whether or not Mark Middleton ever 20 visited China? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you ever had any contact with Joseph Giroir? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you know who he is? 25 A No. 280 1 Q Have you ever had any contact with Webster Hubbell? 2 A No. 3 Q Have you ever met him? 4 A I don't believe I have. 5 Q Do you know anyone by the name of Jer Nash, 6 N-a-s-h? 7 A No. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 10 THE COURT REPORTER: 27. 11 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 12 27 was marked for identification.) 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q This is a memorandum from you, Terry McAuliffe, 15 National Finance Chairman, to Nancy Hernreich, 16 H-e-r-n-r-e-i-c-h, dated January 5, 1992. Attached to it 17 are some handwritten notations -- 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: It's '93 on mine. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: '93. I'm sorry. Handwritten 20 notations on the back. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever seen this document and the associated 23 two pages before? 24 A You bet I have. 25 Q What makes you remember it so vividly? 281 1 A Well, it only led all three networks and was on CNN 2 Headline News every 15 minutes for two days. It's famous, 3 Larry. 4 Q What is it about the document that's famous other 5 than that it was on TV? 6 A Well, they threw my picture up there with it. I 7 think that the President wrote on it. 8 Q Oh, this is the President's handwriting on the top? 9 A No, not where it says "Mr. President," but I 10 believe his is on the back. 11 Q All right. Well, who wrote that? "Mr. President." 12 A This memo, what I sent in and the first page, I 13 never got the memo back, I never saw it again, never heard 14 about it again, so I don't know who and where it went. 15 Q Do you know whether any of the individuals listed 16 in paragraph 2 went on trade missions? 17 A I don't. 18 Q Whose handwriting is on the back? 19 A The President of the United States. 20 Q Well, can you read what it says? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, could counsel tell me, 22 maybe I've got it confused, on page 1, Ernie Green, haven't 23 we just seen a document which indicated -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Your Honor, Ernie Green did go 25 on a trade mission, at least to South Africa. He was on the 282 1 DNC minority donor list. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 3 THE WITNESS: He's an African-American male. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q The second page, can you read to me what's said 7 there? 8 A I think he received a note do you want me to pursue 9 any of this and he writes back, yes, pursue all three and 10 promptly and get other names at 100 or 50 or more, cc Harold, 11 Panetta -- 12 Q L -- Leon Panetta, you mean? 13 A Yes, I'm sorry. Harold, then Leon Panetta. Ready 14 to start right away. 15 Q What's that Webster after that? 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, maybe you should read it. 17 Is there any magic to Mr. McAuliffe reading it? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, yes, because he's -- 19 You're familiar with the President's handwriting, 20 correct? 21 THE WITNESS: You're not by now? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Come on. Let's go. 23 Please. 24 THE WITNESS: Webster is probably Billy Webster, 25 who was the President's scheduler. 283 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Okay. Can you continue to read it? 3 A Ready to start right away, give me the top 10 list 4 back along with 100, 50 -- I can't -- whatever that -- I 5 can't read the last line. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could it be et cetera? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Et cetera. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Where it says cc, who's listed there? 10 A Harold, Leon and it looks like Billy Webster. 11 Q Okay. Now, these denominations, 100,000, 50,000? 12 A Mm-hmm. 13 Q 100,000 was the DNC Managing Trustee Program, 14 correct? 15 A Right. 16 Q And the 50,000? 17 A Trustee. 18 Q That's the Trustee Program? 19 A Right. 20 Q So DNC managing trustee is higher than a trustee? 21 A Oh, yes. 22 Q Okay. So the President is asking you to get 23 cracking -- 24 A No, this does not come back to me. I never see 25 this memo again. Never saw it again, never discussed it with 284 1 anybody ever again. 2 Q So in effect what's happening here is that these 3 coffees are going to become part of the benefits that one 4 receives for being a DNC managing trustee. 5 A No. Larry, no. You're way off base. What I'm 6 asking the President to do at this point as we're about to 7 begin the '96 campaign and what I'm asking the President, as 8 you can see, I want to get his past supporters in to see him 9 to get them energized for '96. This isn't a benefit or perk 10 at all. 11 We have just lost the House and the Senate and the 12 President's popularity is very low and at this point we were 13 going to begin to start the reelection campaign and I needed 14 the donors and supporters to see him to say that he was going 15 to run again and why they should support him again. Pretty 16 basic. 17 I don't want to shock any of your people at 18 Judicial Watch, but candidates do meet with their supporters 19 and this is exactly what we were advocating. It was no 20 benefit, no perk. 21 This was to get ready for the campaign, for the 22 President to tell his supporters why he was going to run 23 again -- first, was he going to run again, why he was running 24 again, why they should support him, so that they could keep 25 this tremendous economy roaring forward and keep America 285 1 going on the right track, health care and fighting the NRA 2 and you saw what happened with that school last week, all the 3 stuff that Bill Clinton stepped up to the plate to do, that 4 was the purpose of that, for him to be able to talk about it. 5 Q Now, turn back to Exhibit 3. Remember Exhibit 3? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Where it says two annual trustee events with the 8 President in Washington, D.C.? 9 A Mm-hmm. Yes. 10 Q These coffees were going to count as one of the 11 managing trustee events, correct? 12 A No, you're off. I was leaving the DNC, I was gone, 13 had nothing to do with the DNC any more. The date actually 14 of this is 1994. That's a typo and that's been written about 15 extensively, so I'm done -- we're done with the DNC at the 16 point this is written. I'm going over to begin to prepare 17 for the Clinton-Gore reelection committee. It has nothing to 18 do with the DNC. 19 Q Well, what I'm trying to find out is why are you 20 referring to denominations of 100,000 and 50,000 if you're 21 not talking about the Managing Trustee Program and the 22 Trustee Program, which you just acknowledged? 23 A First of all, I'm not doing it. 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I'm sorry. What are you 25 referring to? 286 1 MR. KLAYMAN: The President. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: The President is referring to -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't give testimony, 4 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: No, you're confusing the issue. 6 You asked Mr. McAuliffe -- 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask the question again. Please 8 don't -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. 10 Mr. McAuliffe, step out for a second. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 (The witness was excused.) 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I can ask it a different 14 way. It's not a big deal. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why don't you tell us what that is 16 so we can get it straight? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, all I'm trying -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The theme of your question is that 19 the numbers here coincide with the numbers on Exhibit No. 3 20 in terms of denomination or the levels -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. Well, they correspond with 22 the DNC managing trustee and, of course, Nolanda Hill 23 testified that for $50,000 you went on a trade mission, too, 24 and that was the trustee. So this is the symmetry here. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 287 1 And Mr. Ben-Veniste's quarrel with that is -- 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: That the question was put to 3 Mr. McAuliffe what did you mean or why did you use the 50 and 4 100,000. It was not Mr. McAuliffe who wrote on this, there 5 was no mention by Mr. McAuliffe in his memorandum to the 6 President about any level of giving of past supporters and, 7 moreover, Mr. McAuliffe said he never saw this document with 8 any handwriting from the President subsequent to his sending 9 it over. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I realized that I used the word you 11 loosely, so I was going to change it. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But the point is, I think it's 13 a fair inquiry, whether or not Mr. McAuliffe sees any 14 significance that the number 100,000 in the President's 15 handwriting coincides with the number 100,000 on Exhibit 3. 16 Is that where you were heading, Mr. Klayman? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It seems to me that's a legitimate 19 inquiry. 20 Mr. McAuliffe, come in. 21 (The witness returned.) 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman? 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Referring back to this exhibit No. 27? 25 A Yes. 288 1 Q The reason the President is referring to 100,000 or 2 more on the second page is because he's trying to refer to 3 the DNC Managing Trustee Program, correct? 4 A I would disagree with that. I don't know that. As 5 I stated before, I never got the memo back, nothing was ever 6 done about his comments, never did I see this, never did it 7 come back to me, I did not hear about it until two and a half 8 years later. So I can't get in the mind of the President. 9 Q Is your response the same with regard to the 10 $50,000 reference by the President? 11 A What's that? 12 Q The $50,000 reference referring to the trustee 13 program, which is less? 14 A I think he's referring to item 2. When I had met 15 with the President, he wanted to know who had been very 16 supportive of his efforts. I think he wanted to know who 17 were the people that had supported him. It is not unique for 18 a candidate to want to know who supports him. That's all it 19 was. 20 Every candidate meets with their top supporters. 21 That's what he wanted to do, not to get any money, to find 22 out who had really been helpful to him over the course of the 23 last couple of years. So if he saw them, maybe he could say, 24 hey, Larry, thank you for being helpful to the party, I 25 greatly appreciate it. That does happen. Republicans and 289 1 Democrats. 2 Q Did you ever discuss this memorandum with the 3 President yourself? 4 A After I sent it? 5 Q Yes. 6 A No. 7 Q In the last three years, have you had any 8 conversations with the President? 9 A Have I had any -- yes. Yes. Frequently. 10 Q And have you ever discussed with the President 11 issues involving the campaign finance scandal? 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. What would that have 14 to do with anything? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a foundational question. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: For what? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: To see whether he's discussed -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, do you want Mr. McAuliffe to 19 step out so you can explain this? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 21 (The witness was excused.) 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, this is just -- this is 23 the same line of questioning that I'm asking about here. I 24 mean, did they discuss certain aspects of the fundraising the 25 perks that were provided. 290 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did he have any discussions with 2 the President with reference to whether persons who gave 3 contributions secured a benefit therefrom? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's what you want to ask him? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor -- 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Or did he have any discussions with 10 regard to the ongoing campaign finance controversy because 11 obviously there was a lot that was swirling about and those 12 conversations could be very revealing. 13 For instance, and not to refer to an unrelated 14 matter, but suppose the President said you don't know 15 anything about this, do you; you don't know anything about 16 that, do you. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I'll permit the inquiry, but 18 it's going to have to be related to the topic of our 19 discussion here in this deposition. I think discussions 20 between Mr. McAuliffe and the President with reverence to 21 other aspects of whatever is being investigated in the press 22 or by a Senate committee are not pertinent, but a discussion 23 between this gentleman and the President with reference to 24 allegations with reference to whether or not contributions to 25 the DNC got you a seat on a trade mission. 291 1 MR. KLAYMAN: And if I can broaden it to anything 2 that's on Exhibit 3, which is part of the same program. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Okay. 4 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Can we ask Mr. Klayman to drop 5 from his questions the pejorative tag "campaign finance 6 scandal"? And if he's asking about the subject matter of 7 campaign finance, hopefully specifically matters relating 8 to -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Let's -- you can leave the 10 word "scandal" out. 11 MS. BRASWELL: And, Your Honor -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll follow the guidance of Rick 13 Kaplan on CNN on that. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Exhibit 3 covers a lot more than 15 just trade missions. I see no reason why his questioning 16 should be broader than the issue of trade missions, which is 17 the only issue in this litigation. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We disagree on that. 19 Come in, Mr. McAuliffe. 20 (The witness returned.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever discuss with the President after the 23 campaign finance controversy, we'll put it, erupted in the 24 fall of '96 whether or not there was any connection between 25 coffees and donors? 292 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever discuss whether there was any 3 connection between going on trade missions at a federal 4 agency and donations? 5 A No. 6 Q Did the President ever say anything to the effect 7 we didn't do these things? 8 A I didn't have discussions with him on the issues. 9 Q Did he ever raise with you whether or not John 10 Huang was doing any fundraising? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you know anybody that he raised that with? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you ever have any discussions with the 15 President about benefits provided to a DNC managing trustee? 16 A No. 17 Q Or a DNC trustee? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Vice 20 President Gore about whether or not benefits were provided to 21 a DNC managing trustee? 22 A No. 23 Q A DNC trustee? 24 A No. 25 Q Have you ever had any conversations with Vice 293 1 President Gore about any perceived ramifications of the 2 campaign finance controversy with regard to elections in 3 2000? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did Vice President Gore ever express concern to you 9 about the campaign finance controversy? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Has Vice President Gore ever discussed Bernard 14 Schwartz with you? 15 A No. 16 Q Maria Hsia? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know anybody who went on foreign trade 19 missions at the Commerce Department? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Asked and answered. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a slightly different question. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Overly broad. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Anybody ever who went on a foreign 25 trade mission? 294 1 MR. KLAYMAN: During the Clinton Administration at 2 the Commerce Department. 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You mean Commerce sponsored trade 4 missions? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, a trade mission that was 6 organized and implemented by the Commerce Department during 7 the Clinton administration. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And the question was -- 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Does he know anybody that ever went 10 on such a trade mission. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you know? 12 THE WITNESS: I just went through this list where I 13 knew certain names. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Well, but did you know they actually went on the 16 trade mission? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, before you saw 18 those lists today, do you have an independent recollection 19 that Mr. so and so went on a trade mission? 20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I knew that certain 21 people went on trade missions. I didn't have an 22 independent -- of who as I sit here that did or did not go on 23 them. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But you knew who went at any given 25 time, you might have known? 295 1 THE WITNESS: What's in the paper -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, my question was unclear 3 as well. Did there come a time in your life when you were 4 aware that someone had gone on a trade mission? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And who were those people that you knew of? 8 A I can't -- besides what I've read today, I can't 9 tell you anybody else. It's not something stuck in my mind. 10 Q Did you ever discuss with the President collecting 11 campaign contributions from those persons who attended 12 coffees at the White House? 13 A Absolutely not. 14 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone collecting 15 campaign contributions from those persons who attended 16 coffees at the White House? 17 A There were people who went to the ten Clinton-Gore 18 coffees, which is all we had, who later became part of the 19 campaign and became members of the finance board. Sure. 20 Q Who were those people? 21 A There were 130 or 40 -- we only had 10. 22 Q All right. Who were those 10 people. 23 MS. BRASWELL: No. 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Ten coffees, 130 or 40 people in 25 total Mr. McAuliffe has just said were invited to those. 296 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. Well, and I'm asking you 2 whether you ever contacted any of those people to ask for 3 campaign contributions after the coffees. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: Many of those people who went to the 7 coffees, since we paid for the coffees, they were paid for, 8 were invited to join the Clinton-Gore finance board. As I 9 say, there were 10 Clinton-Gore -- we'll call them finance 10 coffees, there were 30 or 40 political coffees and then the 11 DNC had done many coffees. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So the answer is yes? 14 A Yes. Sure. 15 Q Did you ever offer a Democratic donor a spot at a 16 "truly intimate luncheon with the President"? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: In June of 1997 if he wrote a check 19 for $50,000? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 22 THE WITNESS: Did somebody get -- in June of 1997? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: June 1996. 24 THE WITNESS: June of 1996? Could have. Sure. 25 We called everything truly intimate. We didn't have the 297 1 beautiful candle-lit things that they did with Ronald Reagan, 2 but we always called them intimate, Larry. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever deny that you made such a solicitation 5 of a Peter Buttenweiser? 6 A Yes. As I said, as I've said before, I don't know 7 what that has to do with the Commerce Department, I have no 8 recollection at all of ever asking him for money. 9 Q But if you had made such a statement to him, it 10 wouldn't surprise you? 11 A That what? 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Offering him a truly intimate 14 luncheon with the President. 15 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Did Peter Buttenweiser go on some 16 trade mission? Is this related in some way to this case? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Please -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me see -- 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: It's 5:00 on Friday now. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if we can figure it out. 21 This man Buttenweiser, did you ever offer him a 22 truly intimate luncheon with the President of the United 23 States? 24 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, everybody got a letter 25 calling them intimate events. I'm sorry, that's the language 298 1 they used. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Thank you. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: The question he didn't answer, 4 Your Honor, if I may, did Peter Buttenweiser ever get a 5 solicitation to donate $50,000 for a truly intimate luncheon 6 with the President? 7 THE WITNESS: He could have. I don't recall. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q But if he did, that would have been part of your 10 normal business practice. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. 12 THE WITNESS: What? 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Let's listen carefully to the 14 question that's asked because the question -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait a second. Stop it. 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: -- now has changed once again. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Stop it. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm listening. I'm listening. 19 There's not a risk here. I think Mr. McAuliffe will be fine. 20 Go on, Mr. Ben-Veniste, please. 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: The words that were added in 22 return for a $50,000 contribution were now part of the 23 question. I don't know whether Mr. McAuliffe -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, this is objectionable. 25 He can do cross-examination if he wants. 299 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's, please -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I realize it's Friday, we've been 3 reminded of that since noon, but I'll be happy to let him do 4 a cross -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if we can go on. 6 Please. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 8 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 9 THE COURT REPORTER: 28. 10 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 11 28 was marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q This is an article written by Lynn Sweet. Do you 14 know Lynn Sweet? 15 A No. 16 Q May 7, 1997, Chicago Sun-Times, headline, 17 "Fundraising issue gets hotter; Senate Plan allows $4.35 18 million for probe." Down at the bottom of the page, "The 19 Philadelphia Inquirer reported Thursday that top Democratic 20 fundraiser Terry McAuliffe offered a Democratic donor a spot 21 at a 'truly intimate luncheon' with the President last June 22 if he wrote a check for $50,000. In a June 1996 letter to 23 McAuliffe protesting the crass solicitation, Peter 24 Buttenweiser said, 'I do not want to work my way into a 25 luncheon with the president. It's no fun that way and it's 300 1 not right.'" 2 Do you remember -- 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Could you possibly read the last 4 time? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, read the last line. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm going to. I'm going to ask 7 him a question. 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: That would be so helpful. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's go on. 10 I don't know what the question was but -- 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: There is no question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I get to ask my question the way I 13 want to ask it, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please ask it, Mr. Klayman. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. "McAuliffe denied 16 Buttenweiser's allegations." 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Thank you. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you deny the allegations at the time? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And why did you deny them? 22 A Because it didn't happen. 23 Q Because in fact to offer Mr. Buttenweiser an 24 intimate luncheon with the President for $50,000 is illegal, 25 based on your experience, correct? 301 1 A People get letters sent every day asking them to 2 come a different event all the time and they call them 3 intimate. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong 4 with that. 5 Q Is it legal if Mr. Buttenweiser was invited to an 6 intimate lunch at the White House based on your experience? 7 A If what happened? 8 Q If the lunch was to take place at the White House? 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Does it say the White House? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking the question. 11 Please. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, I have to object to 13 the way these questions -- 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let me see if we can 15 get this -- 16 MS. BRASWELL: It calls for a legal conclusion, 17 Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, I think -- 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: There's two things, Your Honor. 20 There are two problems. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Based on his experience. 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: One, it calls for a legal 23 conclusion and it's mischaracterizing what's said there. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, let's see if we can 25 do it this way. First of all, let's go at it this way. Did 302 1 you offer Mr. Buttenweiser a truly intimate luncheon with the 2 President? 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. All right. Now, as 5 you in your experience, your deep experience as a fundraiser, 6 would you have believed that to do so is inappropriate? 7 THE WITNESS: You couldn't say give me a check for 8 50 and go to an event at the White House. Of course not. 9 The fact is unlike Ronald Reagan and his group -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. We don't need the editorial 11 comments about Ronald Reagan. 12 THE WITNESS: Well, it happened all the time. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Why couldn't you say that? What in your experience 15 leads you to believe that you can't say it that way? 16 A Well, the White House is a federal building. 17 Q You can't do fundraising in a federal building. 18 A Right. 19 Q Is it your position that the coffees at the White 20 House were fundraisers? 21 A Absolutely not. 22 Q You are aware that Lanny Davis, previously special 23 White House counsel, has admitted that they were fundraisers? 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 303 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Argumentative. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you know Maggie Williams? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Have you ever had any contact with Maggie Williams 7 over any fundraising issues? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know Dick Morris? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Have you talked to Dick Morris in the last three 15 years? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you have any contact with Dick Morris between 22 1994 and 1996? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, I'm hopeful this is 24 going somewhere. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: It is, Your Honor. 304 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's hope it gets there 2 quickly. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Very limited. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did you ever discuss with Dick Morris offering 6 benefits, government benefits, such as coffees or trade 7 missions seats, to raise money for the 1996 campaign? 8 A No. 9 Q Did Mr. Morris ever relay to you any comments made 10 by First Lady Hillary Clinton about fundraising? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you ever heard Hillary Clinton say politics is 13 money and money is power? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Have you ever heard Mrs. Clinton say something to 18 the effect, well, the Republicans do it, why can't we? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever hear Ron Brown say I'm not Hillary's 23 tour guide? 24 A No. 25 Q Have you ever talked to Joyce Milton? 305 1 A Never heard the name. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Before we go any further, 3 Mr. Klayman, I'd like to get some estimate -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm in the home stretch. I'm just 5 trying to make sure that I've covered everything. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. The home stretch is 7 one-eight from the finish line. You want to be careful with 8 your references. A furlong. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I used to go with my grandfather to 10 the horse races, but I don't remember much beyond that. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: A furlong from the finish line. 12 In honor of the Kentucky Derby, we will note that. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 14 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 15 THE COURT REPORTER: 29. 16 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 17 29 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q This is a printout of a Rolodex of Paul Donovan, 20 4/29/1999. He's someone who worked at the Commerce 21 Department. And turn to page -- well, let me show it to you. 22 It's alphabetical, it's in the Ms, for your name. 23 A Okay. Got it. 24 Q See where it says McAuliffe, Terry, DNC? 25 A Mm-hmm. 306 1 Q Is that your work number that's listed there to the 2 right? Was that your work number, 862-7165? 3 A I think that was in 1994. 4 Q And where was that extension? Where was it 5 located? 6 A The DNC. 7 Q At the DNC. 8 A I haven't had that in five years. 9 Q All right. And then it says phone number 331-1996. 10 is that your home phone number there? 11 A No, that was the Clinton-Gore phone, I believe. I 12 think. He's got an old Rolodex. 13 Q Well, on the left it says it was printed out on 14 April 29, 1999. 15 A He needs to update it, Larry. 16 Q And it says last update 1/24/97 to the right. 17 Do you see that? 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q But you're not denying that at one time these two 20 phone numbers you used? 21 A I can't tell if it's the main switchboard, my 22 switchboard, I mean, I can't tell you the number, but it 23 certainly could have been my extension. I think 331-1996 was 24 the general Clinton-Gore number. 25 Q Okay. But you're sure the 862-7165 -- 307 1 A No, I'm not sure of that. 2 Q -- is the DNC. 3 A 862 I believe is the exchange of the DNC. 4 Q Do you have any knowledge as to why Mr. Donovan, a 5 Commerce Department employee, would have your name on his 6 Rolodex? 7 A Is this the guy who worked for Ted Kennedy? 8 Q As far as I know, he worked at the Commerce 9 Department. 10 A I believe this used to be Ted Kennedy's chief of 11 staff and I knew him and talked to him, Larry, on several 12 cases. That's why. If it's the same Paul Donovan. If he's 13 the guy that was Ted Kennedy's chief of staff. 14 Q Do you know where he is today? 15 A No. I think he's Ted Kennedy's chief of staff, so 16 we may not have the right guy. There's a Paul Donovan who 17 was Ted Kennedy's chief of staff. So that's all I can tell 18 you. 19 Q Did you ever contact with him when he was at the 20 Commerce Department? 21 A No. I didn't know he was at Commerce. I thought 22 he was at Ted Kennedy's office. You're really stretching 23 here. 24 Q You are aware that Victoria Kennedy worked for 25 Greenberg Traurig with Marvin Rosen? 308 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did she participate in any DNC fundraising? 3 A I do not believe she did. 4 Q Do you know whether she had any contact with John 5 Huang? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you know whether she had any contact with 11 Charlie Trie? 12 A I'll make it simple. I've seen the woman three 13 times in my life. I don't know who she ever contacted. I 14 know of no person she ever contacted as a broad blanket 15 statement, to save us a whole lot of time. 16 Q Do you know whether she ever engaged in 17 fundraising? 18 A I said no. 19 Q Have you ever been provided assurances that if 20 anything occurs with regard to your activities, your past 21 activities at the DNC in terms of prosecution that you would 22 be pardoned? 23 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I object to this, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: This is just totally outrageous 309 1 and off the wall. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 3 THE WITNESS: No, Larry, I never talked about you 4 suing -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, there's no question 6 before you. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, that's ridiculous, making such 8 a statement. That's a joke. 9 For the record, Your Honor, I would like to say 10 there is one person who has been convicted in this thing who 11 was an official of a campaign for the party, his name is 12 Simon Fireman, for illegal funnelling $150,000 into the Bob 13 Dole for President campaign committee. And today he's 14 wearing an ankle bracelet around his house and it ain't from 15 Tiffany's. The only official. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. McAuliffe. 17 THE WITNESS: Funnelled money to Dole. Dole's 18 national finance vice chairman. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 20 THE WITNESS: Let the record be clear. He's 21 walking around his house with a bracelet on. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Are you proud of that? 24 A No. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Come on, gentlemen. 310 1 Please. 2 THE WITNESS: Don't talk about me being pardoned. 3 That's a disgrace. He doesn't have anything. Why are we 4 sitting here? This is ridiculous. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q When you were at the Democratic National Committee, 7 did you ever see any documents come over from the Commerce 8 Department? 9 A No. 10 Q Were there ever any couriers on a routine basis 11 from DNC to Commerce? 12 A I wasn't the mailman. No. 13 Q Do you know whether John Huang held meetings at the 14 DNC with other persons from other government agencies? 15 A No. 16 Q What specifically was Harold Ickes' role in terms 17 of fundraising in the 1996 campaign? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I object. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason I'm getting to this, 22 Your Honor, is that we know he had a role in the trade 23 missions. We have documents to that effect. So I'm trying 24 to ask it in a slightly broader way since he's disclaimed any 25 knowledge with regard to trade missions, I'm trying to get at 311 1 it a different way. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Try it again with 3 reference to trade missions. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What was Ickes -- did he have a formal role in the 6 White House with regard to fundraising in 1996? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, it's quite easy to 10 ask a pointed question on trade missions. 11 Is this only for the purpose of keeping us all here 12 an extra hour? I don't see it. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm finishing up. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Finish up. 15 Let me see if I can put it this way. 16 You know the topic here that we've been discussion 17 about this business of trade missions. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In the 1996 campaign, did 20 Mr. Ickes have a particular role in fundraising which 21 would have anything to do in general with trade missions 22 and contributions to the DNC and what one might gain by 23 making such contributions? 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 312 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q And what is the basis of your making that 3 statement? 4 A He asked me if I had any knowledge. I don't. 5 Q Are you saying that Harold Ickes did not play any 6 role in fundraising in 1996? 7 A That's not what the judge just asked me. 8 Q I'm asking a follow-up question. 9 Q Well, don't try to interpret what he just asked me. 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: That's the problem. I object, 11 Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Sustained. The 13 objection is sustained. 14 THE WITNESS: Larry, if you don't have anything 15 else -- 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Okay. Okay. Please, Terry. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, it's ridiculous. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further questions. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you very much. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you everyone for your 22 patience, civility and professionalism. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 25 5:18 -- 313 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Could I put two things on the 2 record, Your Honor? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. We need that LEXIS/NEXIS 4 thing. 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If we have it. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're still on the record. 7 THE WITNESS: You were really dipping there at the 8 end, Larry. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Dipping at what? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, you couldn't find anything, you 11 weren't happy with the day, but that's -- 12 (A brief recess was taken.) 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are still on record at 5:18. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Ben-Veniste, Mr. Mr. Klayman, 15 Ms. Braswell, Sara Block, my clerk, tried three different 16 databases with our library and we couldn't find the 17 retraction. We called the Daily News and they promised to 18 send us a copy. 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: We will try to find it also, 20 Your Honor. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: The other thing I would like to 23 put on the record is my correspondence with Judicial Watch 24 with respect to scheduling this deposition, if I may mark it 25 as one exhibit, I'd like to do so. 314 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You certainly may. 2 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 3 Will that be Defendant's 1? 4 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Yes. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if Mr. Ben-Veniste 6 wishes to put that on the record, that's fine. 7 I would like to put my response on the record, 8 too. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You certainly may. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: But I can do that -- 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I have it. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No problem. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I have the letter and your 14 response, Mr. Klayman, marked as Exhibit No. -- 15 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 30. 16 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 17 30 was marked for identification.) 18 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you've earned every dime 19 of your taxpayer money today. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, everyone. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record 22 at 5:20. 23 (Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., the deposition of 24 TERENCE McAULIFFE was concluded.) 25 * * * * * 315 1 I have read the foregoing pages, which are a 2 correct transcript of the answers given by me to the 3 questions therein recorded. 4 Deponent ____________________________________ 5 Date ____________________________________