IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. : 95-0133 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Washington, D.C. Friday, April 30, 1999 Deposition of TERENCE RICHARD McAULIFFE a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, 3rd and Constitution, N.W., Washington, D.C. commencing at 10:10 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA UTGOFF BRASWELL, ESQ. Assistant United States Attorney U.S. Attorney's Office 555 Fourth Street, N.W. 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 FRANK TRIVERI, ESQUIRE U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Deponent: RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, ESQ. Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP 1615 L Street N.W., Suite 700 Washington, D.C. 20036 Also present: Thomas Fitton, President, Judicial Watch Jason Aldrich, Esq., Judicial Watch 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 7 McAULIFFE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 1 Business Leadership Forum 47 No. 2 Notice of Deposition 47 No. 3 DNC Managing Trustee Events & Membership Requirements 90 No. 4 Memorandum dated January 13, 1994 to Bob, Ari, Fran, from Eric, re: Trade Mission to Russia 110 No. 5 Memorandum dated May 5, 1994 to Ann Cahill from Martha Phipps, re: White House Activities 129 No. 6 The Managing Trustee Program 134 No. 7 Letter dated August 17, 1994 to Harold Ickes from Terence R. McAuliffe 138 No. 8 Washington Post article dated January 19, 1997, "Clinton's Million Dollar Man; After Raising a Bundle, Terry McAuliffe Now Wants to Lower his Profile" 155 No. 9 Transcript of evidentiary hearing held March 23, 1998 162 No. 10 Letter dated November 16, 1993 to Ron Brown from Wilson Golden, re: 1994 South Africa Trade Mission Digital Software Corporation Electrical Power Systems 171 No. 11 Washington Post article dated May 24, 1998, "Liu and Johnny Chung: Puzzling Financial Ties, Details Emerge on DNC Donor's China Link" 183 4 McAULIFFE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 12 Memorandum to Terry McAuliffe dated June 6, 1994 from Ari Swiller re: Trustee Calls 194 No. 13 Memorandum dated November 30, 1994 to Terry McAuliffe and Laura Hartigan from Ari Swiller 199 No. 14 Memorandum dated August 22, 1994 to Martha Shoffner from David Mercer, re: Follow up to meeting with Charlie Trie 204 No. 15 Daily News New York article dated November 1, 1996, "Bill's Man Linked to Asian Donors" 207 No. 16 Letter dated July 25, 1994 to Melissa Moss from Terry McAuliffe and memorandum dated July 25, 1994 to Melissa Moss from Terry McAuliffe 218 No. 17 Office of Business Liaison Week in Review #5, to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter, re: OBL Weekly Activities, dated August 6, 1993 224 No. 18 Memorandum dated April 19, 1994 to Tracey Rancifer re: Contacts for Latin America 228 No. 19 Memorandum dated March 30, 1994 to Tracey Rancifer re: Minority Exporters 230 No. 20 Donor file notes 231 No. 21 Donor list 238 No. 22 Minority donor list 240 No. 23 Wall Street Journal Article dated November 13, 1996, "Huang, While at Commerce Department, Talked to Democratic Fundraisers" 252 No. 24 Affidavit of Nolanda Hill 257 No. 25 Trade mission participants 263 5 McAULIFFE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 26 Memorandum dated June 6, 1994 to Sally from Kathy 271 No. 27 Memorandum dated January 5, 1993 to Nancy Hernreich from Terry McAuliffe 280 No. 28 Chicago Sun-Times article dated March 7, 1997 "Fundraising issue gets hotter; Senate plan allows $4.35 million for probe" 299 No. 29 Rolodex of Paul Donovan 305 No. 30 Correspondence between Judicial Watch and Richard Ben-Veniste 314 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is 3 the deposition of Terence McAuliffe taken by the counsel 4 for the Plaintiff in the matter of Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 v. U.S. Department of Commerce in the U.S. District Court 6 for the District of Columbia, Case No. 95-0133, held in the 7 chambers of Judge John Facciola at the U.S. District Court 8 for the District of Columbia, on this date, April 30, 1999 9 and at the time indicated on the video screen, which is 10 10:10 a.m. 11 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am the videographer. 12 The court reporter today is Rita Hemphill from the firm of 13 Diversified Reporting. 14 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, General Counsel and 16 Chairman of Judicial Watch. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Richard Ben-Veniste, a partner 19 in the firm of Weil, Gotshal & Manges, representing 20 Mr. McAuliffe. 21 MR. SOUTHARD: Dave Southard, a law clerk at 22 the firm of Weil, Gotshal & Manges. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the 24 U.S. Attorney's office, representing the Department of 25 Commerce. 7 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter please 2 swear in the witness? 3 MS. BRASWELL: You missed one. 4 MR. TRIVERI: Frank Triveri. I'm an attorney at 5 the Commerce Department. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter swear 7 in the witness? 8 Whereupon, 9 TERENCE RICHARD McAULIFFE 10 was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn, 11 was examined and testified as follows: 12 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Mr. McAuliffe, will you please state your name? 15 A Terence Richard McAuliffe. 16 Q And when were you born? 17 A February 9, 1957. 18 Q Have you ever been deposed before? 19 A Yes. 20 Q When was that? 21 A Boy. When was that, Richard? 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: In connection with what? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you have to testify. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I can't recall the exact dates. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: In connection with anything. 8 1 THE WITNESS: The Thompson Committee and the Senate 2 finance hearings. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q This was in 1997? 5 A 1997. Correct. 6 Q Were you deposed in any other congressional type 7 proceedings? I'll see if I can walk you through this real 8 quick. 9 A I never heard from any House committee hearings. 10 No. And, in the Senate, it as just Senator Thompson. 11 Q Well, let me stop you there. You were only deposed 12 once in the Senate finance committee hearings? 13 A Two or three times, I think. I can't recall 14 specifically how many. It was two or three times. 15 Q Do you remember roughly the dates? 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Don't guess. If you remember. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the dates. No. 18 I believe the fall of '97. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever been deposed in any other types of 21 proceeding, civil or criminal? 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I object to the form of the 23 question. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 If you remember, Mr. McAuliffe, going through a 9 1 similar procedure as this. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Similar procedures. 3 THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection, I've 4 been deposed three, four times. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q And in what types of proceedings? 7 A Business proceedings, lawsuits from business 8 matters and things to that nature. 9 Q What were the names of those proceedings? 10 A I'd have to ask my counsel. I just don't recall. 11 I'm sorry. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. If you want to have the 13 help of your counsel, that's fine in this instance. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Generally, I don't want to use that 16 as a practice, but go ahead. 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I'm not testifying. I don't 18 understand. If you would like to get our assistance and give 19 you a list, I'm prepared to take that under advisement. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we get a ruling on that, 21 Your Honor? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, do you have an independent 23 recollection, Mr. McAuliffe, of these other depositions that 24 you took? 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can't remember names or 10 1 dates. No. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: To the best of your recollection, 3 Mr. Ben-Veniste would remember them? 4 THE WITNESS: I think he'd probably have to prepare 5 himself and I'm sure he'd be glad to present a list. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But if you spent two 7 minutes now with Mr. Ben-Veniste, would that refresh your 8 recollection sufficiently so we could get this out of the way 9 and move on? 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Give us a moment, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 12 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 13 THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, 14 Mr. Klayman, the Senate was my only deposition, to the best 15 of my recollection. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Have you ever appeared before any other proceedings 18 where you've provided testimony under oath? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Which proceedings were they? 21 A I was a voluntary witness in a grand jury 22 proceeding in New York. 23 Q And what did that involve, just in terms of general 24 subject matter? I don't want the testimony. 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I'll direct the witness not to 11 1 answer that. 2 Grand jury proceedings, as you well know, 3 are secret proceedings. If you want to get into grand 4 jury proceedings, I suggest you call the United States 5 Attorney for the Southern District of New York about 6 that. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll ask Judge Facciola if 8 we need to. Maybe I can make it more precise. Some of these 9 matters have been reported publicly, but I don't know whether 10 or not there's testimony. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was it with regard to an investigation of the 13 Teamsters Union? 14 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You can answer that. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q And how many times did you testify there? 18 A Once. 19 Q Were there other proceedings where you testified, 20 grand jury proceedings? 21 A Yes. There was one other proceeding here in 22 Washington. 23 Q And the same way I asked you the question about the 24 teamsters union, just the general subject matter. 25 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 12 1 A I was a voluntary witness on a business matter 2 issue. 3 Q Did that matter involve Prudential Securities? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And it was over a lease agreement with a federal 6 agency? 7 It's been reported publicly, Richard. 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, then, I think that will be 9 satisfactory for you. This is not a proceeding about that. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm just trying to identify it 11 because I didn't know whether there was sworn testimony or 12 not. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You have. It was about the 14 Prudential matter. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Any other occasions where you've testified in civil 18 suits? 19 A Not to my recollection. 20 Q Have you ever been involved in litigation as a 21 defendant or plaintiff? Civil litigation. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Have any of your companies? 24 A I'm sure they have, but I can't answer that 25 question today. I'd have to sit with my counsel and figure 13 1 out -- I've never been the subject or target of any 2 investigation. I will volunteer that. 3 Q What was the style, as lawyers call it, of the 4 civil litigation? What was it called? 5 A I don't understand the question. 6 Q Something v. McAuliffe, McAuliffe v. Something? 7 A I don't know what the name of the suit was. 8 Q Where were these suits located? In Washington, 9 D.C. area? 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of the 11 question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Just trying to move through it 13 quickly. 14 MR. BEN-VENISTE: He's talked about one suit, you 15 mentioned plural. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: If we could, I don't have any problem 17 if you're helping him if I say that's okay, but please 18 don't -- 19 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, you've asked me to help and 20 now you're asking me not to help. Is that right? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'd rather address the 22 questions to you. I don't want to get into a colloquy. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if we can get it done. 24 Mr. McAuliffe? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir? 14 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You were asked about a lawsuit in 2 which you were involved. I think you said there was one. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you remember the name of the 5 lawsuit, Jones v. Something? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't, Your Honor. I wish I did. 7 I don't. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Do you remember when it 9 was, just roughly? 10 THE WITNESS: Two, three years ago. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And was it here in the District? 12 This court, the United States District Court for the District 13 of Columbia? 14 THE WITNESS: It could have been in Virginia. I 15 don't know. I don't know the answer to that. It could have 16 been here or Virginia, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. And do you have any 18 recollection whatsoever of the nature of the involvement? 19 It was a business matter involving -- 20 THE WITNESS: It was a business matter and I was 21 dismissed from the suit, sir. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Have you ever testified as a witness in any 25 civil suit, not as a plaintiff or a defendant? Have you 15 1 ever testified as a witness, a third-party witness? Other 2 than here today? 3 A In a court proceeding? 4 Q Court or administrative proceeding. 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Give us a moment. 6 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 7 THE WITNESS: I believe the answer to that question 8 is no. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q How long has Mr. Ben-Veniste been your attorney? 11 A Richard's been with me now for three or four years. 12 Q Did you have any type of involvement in any kind of 13 a lawsuit or administrative proceeding where you were a 14 witness before Mr. Ben-Veniste became your attorney? 15 A No, I do not believe so. 16 Q Where did you go to high school? 17 A Bishop Luden High School in Syracuse, New York. 18 Q And what year did you graduate? 19 A 1975. 20 Q And what, if anything, did you do at that time? 21 A You mean when I went to high school? 22 Q Yes. Did you go to college. 23 A Played sports -- oh, I'm sorry. I thought you 24 wanted to know what I did in high school. 25 Q After you graduated. 16 1 A I'm sorry. Yes. I received my B.A. at the 2 Catholic University of America in 1979 and received a J.D. 3 in 1984 from Georgetown University. 4 Q And after you graduated from Georgetown, did you 5 get employment? 6 A Sure. 7 Q Okay. What did you do? 8 A I was involved in several business ventures. I had 9 a law firm, my own law firm, here in Washington. 10 Q What's the name of the law firm? 11 A Then it was McAuliffe, Kelly & Raffali. 12 Q Is that law firm still in operation? 13 A It is. I left the firm in 1994. 14 Q And what happened in 1994 that caused you to leave 15 the firm? 16 A Well, at that point, I became finance chairman of 17 the Democratic National Committee and wasn't doing too much 18 work at the law firm any more and there were other business 19 ventures I was involved in and I decided to move on. 20 Q And how long did you stay as finance chair of the 21 DNC? 22 A I went in -- I think I was elected in March, the 23 middle of March 1994 and stayed until the end of the year of 24 1994, so nine months. 25 Q Let's back up a little bit. Did there come a point 17 1 in time after you graduated from law school and entered the 2 professional world where you started to do fundraising? 3 A Oh, sure. I started doing that in 1979 before I 4 went to law school. I went to work for the Carter-Mondale 5 reelection committee in 1979. 6 Q And what did you for them? 7 A Fundraising. Traveled around the country putting 8 events together. 9 Q And how long did you do that? 10 A Did that for the committee in '79, then went over 11 to the Democratic National Committee in '80 when the general 12 election duties assumed. Left after the president was 13 defeated. 14 Q And what did you do for the Democratic National 15 Committee in 1980? 16 A Raised money. 17 Q Did you have a title? 18 A I think I was director of fundraising events or 19 something like that. 20 Q During the time that you worked for the Carter 21 administration, were you aware -- 22 A I didn't work for the administration. I worked for 23 the campaign. 24 Q You worked for the Democratic National Committee? 25 A No, I worked for the Carter-Mondale reelection 18 1 committee. It's not the administration, it's a committee. 2 It's a primary committee. 3 Q Okay. Who did you work with? Who was your 4 supervisor? 5 A The finance director was a gentleman by the name of 6 Tim Finchem. 7 Q How is that spelled? 8 A F-i-n-c-h-e-m. 9 Q When you worked for the Carter-Mondale campaign in 10 around 1980, were you aware of that campaign or the White 11 House or any organization or government entity offering 12 government services for campaign contributions? 13 A No. 14 Q President Carter never did those kinds of things, 15 did he? 16 A Not to my knowledge. 17 Q He never offered seats on trade missions in 18 exchange for campaign contributions, for instance? 19 A I don't know anybody that has. 20 Q He didn't sell overnight stays in the White House 21 to campaign contributors, did he? 22 A I don't know anybody that has. 23 Q Well, I'm just asking about President Carter. 24 A No knowledge of him or anybody. 25 Q He didn't have coffees in the White House that he 19 1 put on for campaign contributors, did he? 2 A Oh, I believe he brought supporters in and they 3 had -- you could call them coffees or whatever you may want 4 to call them. I'm sure he had meetings with his supporters. 5 I would disagree with that. 6 Q Did he have them in areas of the White House other 7 than the residence? 8 A I'm sure he did, as we saw Ronald Reagan on TV had 9 a Team 100 meeting and solicited donors in the East Room of 10 the White House, so a lot of presidents have brought 11 supporters in. 12 Q Did President Carter or the Democratic Party ever 13 prepare a brochure where they listed the various perks that 14 you could get for campaign contributions? 15 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, is it appropriate to 16 object to matters so outside of the scope -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Let's move to the Clinton 18 administration. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm trying to move forward. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please. Let's get away from 21 Carter and move into this period of American history. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, there's no question 24 before you, so hold off. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. Okay. 20 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What did you do after the Carter campaign? 3 A Went to law school. 4 Q Okay. Now, did there come a point in time when you 5 engaged in fundraising again? 6 A Yes. I was involved in helping the Democratic 7 Congressional Campaign Committee, probably 1983, '84, to 8 1986. 9 Q And what did you do in that position? 10 A Fundraising. 11 Q And who was your immediate supervisor? 12 A Probably Marty Franks, who was the executive 13 director. 14 Q And from 1986 forward, did you then continue your 15 fundraising activities in some capacity? 16 A Those were all paid positions. I then have done a 17 series of volunteer positions where I volunteered my time for 18 no pay. I helped Mr. Gephardt, was his national finance 19 chairman in 1987 and 1988 when he ran for president. 20 I was elected finance chairman of the party in 21 1994. I helped what's called the Business Leadership Forum 22 in 1993, but that was very, very part-time type of -- they 23 have lay leaders that help with the party. 24 I actually was elected finance chairman in March of 25 '94, served until the end of the year, and then in 1995, I 21 1 believe it was April 14th, we opened the Clinton-Gore 2 reelection committee and I served in that capacity until 3 November 14, 1995, when we had raised the legal limit and had 4 over 300,000 donors give an average contribution of $28 to 5 our campaign and reached the limit, shut that down, and then 6 finished that. 7 Q And when did you open it up again? 8 A April 14th. 9 Q April 14th. 1994? 10 A 1995. 11 Q 1995. Okay. Did there come a point in time when 12 you met Governor Bill Clinton prior to his running for 13 election in 1992? 14 A Many times. 15 Q When was the first time you met him? 16 A I have no recollection of it. 17 Q Just roughly. 18 A He was around political party events. I'd been 19 involved in political party events since 1979. I can't give 20 you a time. 21 Q Did you ever do any fundraising for him when he was 22 governor of Arkansas? 23 A No. 24 Q Did there come a point in time when you did 25 fundraising for President Clinton or Vice President Gore in 22 1 their 1992 campaign, either for them, their campaign 2 directly, or the Democratic National Committee? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, excuse me. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 5 10:27. 6 (A brief recess was taken.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q I think where we were roughly, if it's not exactly 9 the same question, did there come a point in time when you 10 assisted then Governor Clinton and Al Gore in their campaign 11 fundraising for the 1992 election? 12 A I was not active with them in the primary part of 13 the campaign and then helped -- I was very busy with my 14 businesses and other matters and helped in the fall of 1992, 15 I believe, with the party activities and so forth. 16 Q And what specifically did you do? 17 A I chaired an event, four or five of us chaired an 18 event, in Little Rock and then just helped reach out to 19 people and bring them into the general election. No 20 specific -- no title, no specific responsibilities. 21 Q Who did you work with in setting up that event? 22 A The finance director was Nancy Jacobson. 23 Q Anyone else? 24 A No. 25 Q And what kind of an event was it? 23 1 A Typical fundraiser. I can't remember the number. 2 $1000 a plate, a thousand people screaming, yelling. You 3 know, the typical one we have. 4 Q Did you do anything else in the 1992 campaign? 5 You or anybody that worked for you? 6 A Just helped generally make some calls, but no 7 direct responsibilities. 8 Q Now, after Clinton and Gore won election in 1992, 9 did you assume any role, official or unofficial, in trying to 10 assist the administration or the Democratic Party with 11 fundraising? 12 A I helped the -- 13 Q I know what you testified to in 1994, but I'm 14 talking primarily 1992 up to 1994. 15 A Not '92, some time in '93, I became chairman of the 16 Business Leadership Forum, which was an outreach group to try 17 and bring business people, young entrepreneurs, into the 18 party. 19 We had a new dynamic, vibrant president coming in 20 town to get the stalled Bush economy going and we wanted to 21 get a lot of people involved in part of the party, to be 22 involved, who had not traditionally been part of the party 23 and we were very successful. I think we went from 200 24 members, Larry, to 800 or 900. It was very successful. 25 Q Had you set up the Business Leadership Forum? 24 1 A No. It had been around, I think -- Chuck Manatt 2 started it some time in the '80s. It was originally called 3 the Democratic Business Council. 4 Q Who did you work with as chairman? Who worked 5 under your direction and control? 6 A Well, remember, I was a volunteer. I didn't -- the 7 staff ran itself. The finance director -- I believe, I think 8 Nancy was -- Nancy Jacobson was the finance director, I 9 believe. She ran the staff and all that. And, as I say, I 10 was a lay person, was only in there, you know, on a limited 11 basis. 12 Generally, the lay people, Larry, in these 13 positions act sort of like the chief cheerleaders. They go 14 out and try and get people in, but the actual day-to-day 15 operations, I had nothing to do with. 16 Q Well, you testified that you boosted the 17 membership, correct? 18 A Mm-hmm. We. All of us together. 19 Q And where did you get the names so you could 20 solicit new members? Did you get them from the Democratic 21 National Committee? 22 A I have no idea where they got the names. That's 23 not my responsibility. 24 Q Who handled getting those names of businesses that 25 could join? 25 1 A Businesses and individuals. Party personnel, the 2 people who worked at the DNC and I can't tell you who did it. 3 Q Who was at the DNC at the time? Dave Wilhelm? Was 4 he the chairman? 5 A He was the chairman. 6 Q And who worked under him at that time? Directly in 7 his office. 8 A In David's office? 9 Q Yes. 10 A I can't remember who was there. 11 Q Was there someone by the name of David Mercer? 12 Does that ring a bell? 13 A To the best of my recollection, I thought he worked 14 in the finance division, but I may be -- 15 Q Was he working there at the time? 16 A I don't know. He has been involved at different 17 times there. 18 Q Did he provide names of persons to augment the 19 membership of the Business Leadership Forum? 20 A Not to my knowledge. 21 Q Did the Business Leadership Forum offer certain 22 perks for becoming a member? 23 A What do you mean by perks? 24 Q Did you get certain benefits in terms of 25 membership? 26 1 A Sure. You'd get briefings would go on. You'd get 2 to hear from all the party officials about what was 3 happening. I believe we had a retreat down somewhere, Boca 4 Raton or somewhere in Florida. Similar types of things. I 5 can't remember. If you have a copy of the brochure, I'll be 6 glad to look at it with you. 7 Q Did you get a meeting with the President, for 8 instance? Was that one of the perks? 9 A I don't recall, but I'm sure we did. Generally, 10 when the DNC personnel came in, I was not involved in the 11 preparation of brochures. That's not what the chair lay 12 person does. That's more of a staff function. But to the 13 best of my knowledge, I believe they sort of pilfered the 14 Republican National Committee, who were the experts at 15 putting perks and things together with brochures and they 16 sort of took a lot of stuff from them. 17 Q How did they pilfer? Did they break in? How did 18 they get that? 19 A Oh, I think the probably got a brochure from one of 20 their big donors and, you know, some guys, believe it or not, 21 Larry, play both sides of the fence. 22 Q Richard's the expert on Watergate, so I figured I'd 23 use that analogy here. 24 A Well, that's true. 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: We have seen reciprocity, 27 1 fortunately, in that kind of an exercise. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I agree with you, it's fortunate. 3 THE WITNESS: But no offense, these brochures are 4 pretty widely mailed out and to the best of my knowledge, 5 they got the Republican National Committee and copied them. 6 The Eagles, which are the top of the top of the great perk 7 offerors, is the group of Republicans who give a hundred 8 grand a year and that's really the highlight. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Now, you are considered the preeminent Democratic 11 fundraiser, correct? 12 A Well, that's very nice of you to say that. Coming 13 from you, I take that as a terrific honor. I'm very well 14 known for fundraising and proud of what I've done and proud 15 that I helped put Bill Clinton in office and keep him there 16 and do the right things. 17 Q That is your reputation, however, correct? 18 A I would never brag -- Larry, I would never -- 19 Q In all modesty -- 20 A In all due modesty, I would never brag about 21 myself. I mean, I'm honored that you would say that about me 22 and I appreciate that and I hope my mother, Millie McAuliffe 23 will see this some time on your web site, but I just don't -- 24 you know, I believe in what I do. I give up my time to do 25 this because I believe in the candidates whom I support. 28 1 I love Bill Clinton and I think God that we have 2 him in office, Larry. What he has done for this country, 3 taking people up by the bootstraps, lifting them up, taking 4 people and helping them, educating them, health care, that's 5 what it's about and that's what I fight for every day and I'm 6 awful proud of it and I'd do it again. 7 Q Is this a commercial you want to put on our web 8 site? 9 A No, but -- you know, in fundraising, you've got to 10 believe in what you do, Larry, and I believe in Bill Clinton 11 and I'm working hard for Al Gore and we've got to keep this 12 momentum going, got to keep America strong. I'm very excited 13 about it. I'm proud of what I do. 14 Q The point I'm making is -- 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q You are an expert in fundraising, correct? 17 A I would agree with that statement. 18 Q And in terms of being an expert, you have to know 19 what it is you can offer people to get them to donate money, 20 correct? 21 A I'm not sure offering people -- you have to go 22 in -- the key to fundraising and, as you know, I give 23 lectures on this, I'm on C-SPAN and CNN all the time doing 24 lectures, you have to believe in that candidate whom you are 25 supporting and someone who you want to give you money or 29 1 politically support you, they have to believe in that 2 candidate because it's a lot of work to go out and ask people 3 for money and to give money, so people don't give money for 4 the perks and all this other stuff. 5 They give money because they believe in that 6 candidate and they think that candidate will be a great 7 president, mayor or governor. That's why they do it. 8 Believe it or not. 9 Q Are you saying based on your considerable 10 experience that people give money and never expect 11 anything in exchange? 12 A I didn't say that. I'm not in the minds of our 13 donors. The point I'm making to you is people give money 14 and support candidates because they believe in them and they 15 believe in what they stand for. 16 Q In fact, the Republican Eagles were quite 17 successful. 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q And the Democrats pilfered their ideas because they 20 offered up a lot of perks that people wanted to get by making 21 contributions, correct? 22 A No, I'd argue they liked Ronald Reagan. No, Larry, 23 that's -- I mean, that's an insult to one of your heroes, 24 Ronald Reagan. That's just not right. They did it because 25 they believed in Ronald Reagan. And those that gave to Bush, 30 1 that's why they did it. I mean, that's an insult to those 2 presidents. 3 Q Every person, every single person? 4 A I can't get in the minds of all these people. I 5 don't know. I'm telling you as a general rule, people give 6 money because they believe in that candidate. 7 Q Well, if that's the case, what do they need you for 8 as a fundraiser? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 11 MS. BRASWELL: He's gone far afield. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Let's see if we can 13 get back to the substance -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we are getting to something, 15 Your Honor, believe it or not. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we might be getting 17 something that C-SPAN might enjoy, but we're trying to take a 18 deposition. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not my intent. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if we can move on. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. McAuliffe has a tremendous 22 ability to entertain. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He does. 24 THE WITNESS: You asked the questions, Larry -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: And I am finding you entertaining, 31 1 Terry, but -- 2 THE WITNESS: Good. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: -- but I am actually trying to get 4 to a point here. 5 THE WITNESS: This the truth, entertaining or not. 6 If you don't like it, you don't like it. 7 MR. BEN-VENISTE: What's the point of the 8 question? Don't argue with the witness and we'll move 9 further. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not arguing, I'm -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's see if we can 12 get along, okay? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm at my gentlemanly best today, 14 Richard. 15 THE WITNESS: You're doing great. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 17 THE WITNESS: You're not as bad as everybody says 18 you are. I think you're a perfect gentleman. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q The point is that those Republican Eagles offered 22 certain benefits for becoming a member. 23 A Correct. 24 Q And you as a fundraiser, you know Republican 25 fundraisers, correct? 32 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you're friendly with them, correct? 3 A Yes. Correct. 4 Q And you know that the way you get people to give 5 money frequently is to offer them something, correct? 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Asked and answered. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think he's explained to you that 8 he doesn't accept that thesis. 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Now, that Business Leadership Forum, in terms of 12 becoming a member, one of the perks that it offered was 13 participation on trade missions, correct? 14 A If you would give me a brochure, I cannot recall 15 that. 16 Q Well -- 17 A When you say -- what do you mean, trade missions, 18 what does that mean? 19 Q Trade missions. 20 A Do you mean a DNC-sponsored trip? 21 Q Trade trips. 22 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection to the form of the 23 question, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, see if you can rephrase it, 25 Mr. Klayman, if you'd be so kind. 33 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q One of the perks that was offered at the Business 3 Leadership Forum was to participate on foreign trade 4 missions. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague still. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a foundational question. 7 MS. BRASWELL: Well, it's vague. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me see if maybe we can get 10 through this. 11 Mr. Klayman, your point -- you're trying to ask 12 Mr. McAuliffe, as I understand it, whether or not it was the 13 practice of the committee by which he was employed to offer 14 that sort of event? Is that your question? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We can ask it that way, Your Honor. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor -- 17 THE WITNESS: I just wasn't employed, sir, I was a 18 volunteer, is the only point I would make. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me. I beg your pardon. 20 Okay. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, my objection remains the 22 same until Mr. Klayman indicates what kind of trade missions 23 he's talking about and who sponsored them. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Your Honor, that's -- 25 MS. BRASWELL: It is still a vague question. 34 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That is an objectionable speaking 2 objection. We've been through that before. I ask that not 3 happen again, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, if we get to that 5 point, then Mr. McAuliffe may have to step out. Let's 6 try to make our objections short and then we'll keep the 7 speaking -- 8 MS. BRASWELL: I've indicated no testimony to the 9 witness, Your Honor. 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: May I suggest that rather than 11 asking leading questions, you ask Mr. McAuliffe to explain 12 whether there were any trips that were part of the benefits 13 advertised in brochures? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask, Your Honor, some guidance 15 here, okay? We have a lot of personalities in the room 16 today. I want to ask this very straight and very direct. 17 From my point, I don't want any confrontation. There's no 18 angle here. It's a simple question. If I can just ask the 19 foundational questions, then I'll follow up with it. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And the foundational question is 21 what? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: But with all due respect to everybody 23 here, and I know people are trying to represent their 24 clients, if they'll just let the witness answer and not 25 presume the basis of my question, I think it will move it 35 1 along quicker. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: May I, Your Honor? I'm here not 3 as a personality, but as a lawyer. If a question is vague or 4 objectionable, I think I have an obligation unless it's 5 irrelevant to the proceedings to point it out and to ask a 6 leading question that has in it elements which are inaccurate 7 doesn't serve anybody's purpose. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you see, but he can respond to 9 that and I'm asking a basic neutral question, one of the 10 prerequisites for participation on trade missions. 11 Now, it's inappropriate for counsel to come in and 12 tell him the answer to that question before I even get the 13 foundational question. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let me see if we can back 15 up a bit. 16 Mr. McAuliffe? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Inquiry has been made to you about 19 trade missions. Before we go any further, what do those 20 words mean to you, sir, if anything? The words trade 21 mission. 22 THE WITNESS: You know, I think there's a huge 23 disparity between what Mr. Klayman may think a trade mission 24 is -- 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I don't care what he thinks. 36 1 I care about what you think. 2 THE WITNESS: I do. I'm confused. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You tell us, okay? What do you 4 think a trade mission is? 5 THE WITNESS: The DNC brochure offered what they'd 6 call a trade mission, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go even further back than 8 that. You're a sophisticated gentleman, you know your way 9 around Washington, there is a word called trade mission. 10 What does that word connote to you? 11 THE WITNESS: It connotes that the DNC would offer 12 trips to go abroad with not government people -- big 13 difference -- with party personnel where people would pay 14 their own way to go over. It was a networking opportunity 15 for donors to get together. That's what a trade mission in 16 my mind is. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, there is, of course, another 18 meaning to that word that we've spent a lot of time on in 19 these depositions, which of course you weren't here. 20 THE WITNESS: And I have no knowledge of those. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And it involves more officials of 22 doing that. 23 THE WITNESS: And that was never offered. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That is, the Secretary of State or 25 the Secretary of Commerce -- 37 1 THE WITNESS: Nothing to do with that. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- leads a group of American 3 businessmen to a certain place. 4 THE WITNESS: No connection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Mr. Klayman, why don't 6 you go ahead? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q The Business Leadership Forum offered participation 9 on trade missions, correct? 10 A I don't know the answer to that. Do you have a 11 copy of the brochure that you could show me to refresh my 12 memory? 13 Q Well, but you were the chairman, Mr. McAuliffe. 14 I'm asking -- first I'm asking you from your memory, are you 15 aware the that Business Leadership Forum offered seats on 16 trade missions for memberships? 17 A Offered seats? What are you talking about? They 18 don't offer seats. You're trying to trick me. I know what 19 you're trying to do. No one offered seats on any trade 20 mission. Larry, you're being deceitful. 21 Q Yes or no, was participation -- I'll change the 22 word to participation, if you don't like seats -- offered on 23 trade missions at the Business Leadership Forum? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to the form of the 25 question. He can't require a yes or no answer. 38 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He won't answer it yes or no, 2 Mr. Klayman. He's going to -- 3 If you can, Mr. McAuliffe, give the best answer you 4 can. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking -- Your Honor -- 7 Please. Don't. This is getting to be a circus 8 here because counsel is pulling out documents. I'm entitled 9 to ask questions without counsel -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can -- Mr. Ben-Veniste can take 11 a look at any documents he wants. Ask your question, 12 Mr. Klayman. Please. Go ahead. Please -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I will stipulate and I don't have to 14 because the rules provide for it, Mr. Ben-Veniste will be 15 entitled to cross-examine. I'd be happy to have him do it. 16 And I'm entitled to ask questions -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then please do so. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: -- my way without him having the 19 witness look over his shoulder to documents. 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Nobody has looked over anybody's 21 shoulder, Mr. Klayman. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't need to look over his 23 shoulder. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If I may -- if I may -- nothing 39 1 is reflecting that except your misguided sense of paranoia 2 about how depositions are conducted, Mr. Klayman. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. What happened to -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that remark was 5 unnecessary. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. Time. Okay. Let's not 7 characterize -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I move to strike that. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll strike that. Please don't 10 characterize each other. Let's try to remain civil and 11 professional. 12 All that happened, the record will reflect, is that 13 as this inquiry is going on Mr. Ben-Veniste opened up a file 14 folder and took the papers from it and put it on his chest. 15 I did not see what -- 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I'll tell you what -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Wait a minute. 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Let's move down, if we may, so 19 that Mr. Klayman -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Ben-Veniste, let me -- please, 21 if you would, let me finish what I was saying. I was trying 22 to make a record to indicate that I did not see -- and I'm 23 sitting so I can see Mr. McAuliffe, I did not see Mr. 24 McAuliffe look at those papers. 25 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Now, if I may, Your Honor, 40 1 Mr. Klayman asked me to move over closer to Mr. McAuliffe. 2 I have papers which are relevant to some of the questions 3 which are asked. 4 Mr. Klayman has asked a question about 1993 and 5 then has jumped to a subject which involves brochures. 6 I'm not sure what date the brochures are. I'm looking 7 through my file -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I do not wish Mr. Klayman to 10 look at my papers, I was sitting here at right angles to 11 Mr. McAuliffe when Mr. Klayman suggested that I sit closer to 12 him in order to accommodate him and his staff. 13 Now, I suggest that we all move down one and we'll 14 avoid the problem of Mr. Klayman thinking that I am showing 15 the witness documents. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well -- 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: If that's acceptable, Your Honor, 18 can we do that? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I never made any 20 reference -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think it's necessary -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I never made -- we need a little room 23 here -- 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Yes. Would you move down a 25 little bit, please? 41 1 MR. KLAYMAN: We don't have the room. 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, may we take a brief 3 break? This is -- this is silly. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's keep going, okay? 5 We'll give the reporter a break in a little while. 6 All right. Let's see if we can go back to the 7 question. 8 The problem that we're having is Mr. McAuliffe will 9 not accept your characterization of the word trade mission, 10 so he's never going to answer that question unless you 11 qualify it, Mr. Klayman. So that's where we are. 12 THE WITNESS: And, Your Honor -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think Mr. Ben-Veniste 14 wants you to volunteer anything, Mr. McAuliffe. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. All right. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is that right, Mr. Ben-Veniste? 17 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Yes, Your Honor. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking if we go through this 19 colloquy again, I ask that the witness be excused. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. If that's necessary, 21 Mr. McAuliffe will step out. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Were there any types of prerequisites that were 24 offered at the Business Leadership Forum about attending any 25 kind of trips overseas? 42 1 A You're asking about a brochure six years ago. I 2 can't specifically recall one brochure versus another. As I 3 have consistently said, I had nothing to do with the 4 preparation of brochures. 5 I could speculate that in the Business Leadership 6 brochure there might be the opportunity for donors to go on 7 overseas trips with fellow donors and DNC personnel. That I 8 would concede. 9 And, for the record, if I could, and I would like 10 to if you have it here, explain where I believe the party 11 received the language for their overseas mission if I could 12 ask my counsel to give me a piece of paper that was presented 13 to me. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, your counsel will have an 15 opportunity to cross-examine. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can do that later, 17 Mr. McAuliffe. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. It was taken from the 19 Team 100. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Are you saying that this concept of offering 22 participation on trips overseas was taken from the 23 Republicans? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Where from the Republicans? The Eagles? 43 1 Is that where you're saying it came from? 2 A I believe so. I have a copy of the brochure with 3 the wording in it. 4 Q So the Business Leadership Forum was doing what the 5 Republicans did. That's your position? 6 A No. I didn't prepare the brochure. I will tell 7 you that there's a possibility in the BLF brochure that they 8 said that you, believe it or not, could go overseas with 9 fellow donors if you paid your own way with DNC personnel. 10 Now, that is a trade mission defined by the Democratic Party. 11 Q As chairman of the Business Leadership Forum -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- you were the highest ranking person, correct? 14 A Lay person. Correct. 15 Q And everybody worked under your direction and 16 control. 17 A No. That would be a leap of faith. There was a 18 staff there under staff leadership that were paid. I did 19 not -- was not there every day, I did not run the day-to-day 20 control of the operation. I was a lay person. I went in 21 there a couple times a week. I could not -- staff people ran 22 it. 23 There was a finance director and the top BLF person 24 who was in charge of that reported to the finance director. 25 I did not attend staff meetings or things like that. 44 1 Q But in terms of your history and experience as 2 being a fundraiser, at all times, you are very concerned to 3 do things legally, correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And you know that fundraising has a number of 6 potentialities in it that if you're not very careful can 7 create problems, correct? 8 A Everything in life would have problems if you're 9 not careful. 10 Q Right. In fact, you've been enmeshed from time to 11 time in investigations about fundraising, correct? 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection to the form of the 13 question. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Sustained. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Just laying knowledge, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: State of mind. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q So therefore as chairman, you would be very careful 21 that things are offered that are legal. 22 A I would do the best I could as a lay person who was 23 not there on a day-to-day basis. Staff ran the operation. 24 The legal counsel were involved, Mr. Klayman. I wasn't 25 there. What limited knowledge I would have in the short time 45 1 I was there, I would give my best advice. 2 Q But you did take it upon yourself to either 3 yourself know or delegate to others to know what 4 representations were being made to members, correct? 5 A Staff would be in charge of that and I would assume 6 that they would put it down appropriately, deal with the 7 appropriate legal counsel. I was not involved in that 8 process. 9 Q What steps -- 10 A I was not the staff director. 11 Q What steps, if any, did you take to ensure that the 12 staff was not sending out materials that made representations 13 that could create legal problems? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 15 this continued line of questioning. We have been here for, 16 what, a lengthy period of time. I have yet to hear the 17 Department of Commerce even mentioned. This is a FOIA case 18 against the Department of Commerce regarding documents. This 19 is not -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 21 MS. BRASWELL: Please don't interrupt me. 22 This is not a case -- 23 MR. KLAYMAN: But -- 24 MS. BRASWELL: This is not a case about fundraising 25 and how the DNC goes about fundraising. It's about 46 1 documents. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. The question of trade 3 missions is crucial. Objection overruled. 4 Please go ahead. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you make it a point to either yourself or have 7 someone else review the materials that went out to make sure 8 they didn't create legal problems? 9 A They had a procedure at the DNC for that. I was 10 not involved in that process. I had full faith that the 11 people involved in the day-to-day operations were doing a 12 good job. 13 Q Was the Business Leadership Forum a part of the DNC 14 in 1993? 15 A Yes. 16 Q It was a section of the Democratic National 17 Committee? 18 A It had been the Business Council since the early 19 '80s. 20 Q Okay. So it was, for all effective purposes, the 21 DNC? The Business Leadership Forum. 22 A It was a donor council within the DNC finance 23 division. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 25 reporter to mark as Exhibit 1. 47 1 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 2 1 was marked for identification.) 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Before I do that, I'll show you what 4 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 2. 5 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 6 2 was marked for identification.) 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the matter? 9 MS. BRASWELL: May I please have a copy? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy -- would you like two? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Thank you. No, one is fine. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I would like one, if you have an 13 extra one. This is Exhibit 2 or 1? 14 THE COURT REPORTER: That is Deposition Exhibit 2. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Referring to Exhibit 2, Mr. McAuliffe, this is a 17 copy of a notice of deposition duces tecum and a subpoena. 18 A Okay. 19 Q Which your counsel accepted service of. 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q Have you ever seen that before? 22 A Not to my knowledge. 23 Q Look at Appendix A where it requires the production 24 of certain documents. Have you ever discussed the production 25 of these documents with anyone? 48 1 A Besides my counsel? No. 2 Q Did you discuss it with your counsel? 3 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Well, of course he discussed it 4 with his counsel. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. BEN-VENISTE: We're not going to have some 7 waiver problem, are we, with this? Because I see that is 8 another favorite technique of yours. 9 Without waiving attorney-client privilege, you may 10 answer that question. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, wait a second. 12 Your Honor, you are the judge here, not 13 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Mr. McAuliffe, you're 15 obviously a graduate of a law school. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you're well aware that there 18 exists in law an attorney-client privilege. 19 THE WITNESS: Correct. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As you also remember from law 21 school, it's not the easiest thing in the world to interpret. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I want you to look at this 24 document, if you would. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 49 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And bear in mind that if the 2 question indicates to you a requirement that you disclose 3 something you said to Mr. Ben-Veniste in confidence or 4 Mr. Ben-Veniste said to you in confidence, would you please 5 state so? 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We will then permit you and 8 Mr. Ben-Veniste to discuss the assertion of the privilege at 9 that point. Is that okay? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, but I'm entitled to ask 12 the witness -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: And I ask the Court for instructions, 15 this is what happened here and I ask that you instruct it 16 not to happen again. I said did you ever see it before, 17 Mr. Ben-Veniste injects the answer before I get a response. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I would appreciate if the speaking 19 objections were kept to the barest minimum and I will try to 20 anticipate them and we'll move on. 21 All right. Mr. McAuliffe, you understand the 22 ground rules? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Since we're dealing with 25 attorney-client privilege questions, Your Honor, I'd like the 50 1 opportunity to consult with Mr. McAuliffe. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. Please. Why don't you 3 go into the courtroom and have a moment to address that? 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's about time for our morning 6 break anyway. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record 8 at 10:55. 9 (A brief recess was taken.) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record 11 at 11:01. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q When we left off, I was asking you, Mr. McAuliffe, 14 whether you had ever seen Appendix A to Exhibit 2 before. 15 A Mm-hmm. Go head. 16 Q It's a subpoena that your counsel accepted on your 17 behalf. 18 A Correct. 19 Q Have you seen it? 20 A Yes. 21 Q When did you see it? Today? 22 A No. At some point, Mr. Ben-Veniste sent it over to 23 me. He also sent me over, which I want to thank you right 24 now for the $65 check or whatever you sent me for today's 25 appearance. I appreciate that. 51 1 Q $65 we gave you? 2 A Well, whatever, $57. It was well worth the eight 3 hours, but, I mean, I appreciate -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's get back to the 5 question, Mr. McAuliffe. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. I saw it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q During the break did you discuss with 9 Mr. Ben-Veniste when you had seen this before? 10 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. I would direct the 11 witness not to answer anything about conversations with 12 counsel. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask the substance, 14 Your Honor, I just asked the general subject matter. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. I don't think the privilege 16 stands. 17 Did you have such a discussion, yes or no? That's 18 all. 19 THE WITNESS: Restate the question, please? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q During the break that we just took, did you discuss 22 with Mr. Ben-Veniste when you had seen this Appendix A to 23 Exhibit 2 before? 24 A He did not give me a date, no. 25 Q But he told you you had seen it? 52 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever conduct a search for the documents 5 requested in Appendix A? 6 A Yes. 7 Q When was that? 8 A When I received the subpoena. 9 Q And when was that? 10 A I don't recall the specific date. I'm sorry. 11 Q Where did you search for these documents? 12 A Well, it was not much of a search because I have no 13 documents that relate to my activities at the DNC or to 14 Clinton-Gore. It is my standard practice that whenever I 15 leave an entity, I leave all documents, whatever documents 16 there are, at the premises of the location, so I don't have 17 any documents. 18 Q Are you saying you have no documents of any kind 19 that relate to fundraising? 20 A A picture of me and the President, things to that 21 effect I do have, but I don't have any memos or anything as 22 it relates, Larry, to specifics about fundraising and setting 23 things up. No. 24 Q Are you saying that when you left the Democratic 25 National Committee, you didn't take any documents with you? 53 1 A I did not. 2 Q No copies? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Are you saying that you have no copies of any 5 correspondence to and from the White House during the Clinton 6 presidency? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q You have no documents to and from the Democratic 9 National Committee during the Clinton presidency? 10 A No, I may have thank you letters that people have 11 sent me and things -- the President sends me a note or David 12 Wilhelm said "Great event," but nothing of a substantive 13 nature, Larry. 14 Q What is your place of business currently? 15 A My main corporate headquarters is Kissimmee, 16 Florida. 17 Q And what is the name of that corporate 18 headquarters? 19 A American Heritage Homes. 20 Q What is the address in Kissimmee? 21 A It's American Heritage -- I guess an exact 22 address -- I don't know the exact address. It's my corporate 23 headquarters for the home building company which I own. It's 24 my business. 25 Q You spend most of your time in Florida or most of 54 1 your time here? 2 A Back and forth. 3 Q But where do you spend most of your time? 4 A All over. 5 Q What does "all over" mean? 6 A I travel a lot. I spend time here, I spend time in 7 Florida. 8 Q Do you have offices that you work out of in 9 different states? 10 A No, I have an office in Florida and I have an 11 office here which I use out of my home. 12 Q And where is your home? 13 A Old Dominion Drive here in McLean, Virginia. 14 Q And are you saying to me that you have no documents 15 that relate in any way to fundraising in Kissimmee, Florida 16 or your home here in McLean, Virginia? 17 A I have nothing in Florida as it relates to anything 18 to do with Democratic activities at all. You are very 19 broadly saying fundraising. Pictures and things like that I 20 would have, Larry, but beyond that, no. I have no memos from 21 the DNC, to the DNC or anything of that nature. 22 As I stated before emphatically, when I left the 23 Democratic National Committee I did not take any documents 24 with me. When I left the Clinton-Gore campaign, I did not 25 take any documents with me. 55 1 Q Were you given documents by anybody else? 2 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of the 3 question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In other words, from time to time in the course of 6 your activities, do you receive correspondence from the 7 Democratic National Committee, the White House or others? 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Can we fix a time? Do you mean 9 presently? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, are you still involved in 12 such activities, Mr. McAuliffe? 13 THE WITNESS: No. I have nothing to do with the 14 Democratic National Committee. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to lay a general 16 foundation. This is not a trick question, it's not intended 17 to be overly broad, I'm just trying to get a basic 18 understanding of the fact that you do get corresponded with 19 from time to time by the White House or the DNC, correct? 20 Presently? 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Is that true? 22 THE WITNESS: I get solicited to attend fundraising 23 events by the Democratic National Committee, if that's what 24 you're referring to, but that's about it. I mean, they don't 25 send me -- I get a letter, would you like to give $100. 56 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q I'm just asking for a simple response. You get 3 paper from these entities, sometimes, correct? 4 A I get invitations to fundraisers which, 5 unfortunately, Larry, for them, go right in the trash can. I 6 get a lot of invites. 7 Q Have you been approached by anybody in the 8 Clinton-Gore administration about doing fundraising for the 9 Democrats in the year 2000? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Way beyond the scope. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I don't want to get into 15 the specifics. I'm just -- this testimony is so incredulous 16 I'm just trying to lay a foundation to say that he obviously 17 gets correspondence. That's all I'm trying to do. 18 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to counsel's 19 characterization. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please don't -- 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Move to strike it, along with the 22 bad grammar. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Your motion will be taken under 24 advisement. 25 Mr. Klayman, please move on. I think his work in 57 1 the future is irrelevant. Even though I understand your 2 point, that he -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: In all due respect, Your Honor, I 4 haven't gotten a direct response to one question today. Not 5 even one. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: And what I get are speeches or I get 8 statements. When I'm asking about Business Leadership Forum 9 that have something to do with this lawsuit, I can't get a 10 direct response. I'm trying the best I can to try to give 11 the witness a way that he can give me a direct response, just 12 to get a basic foundational fact out there. 13 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor -- 14 THE WITNESS: Well, ask a good question. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. McAuliffe, please. 16 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, if I may, the 17 question was put to the witness did he search for documents. 18 He responded. The question was did he retain documents. He 19 responded to those questions. He's now being asked about 20 contemporaneous communication. That is outside the scope and 21 Your Honor has ruled. 22 If you will go on, you will find when you review 23 the records that the answers may not suit you, but your 24 questions have been in fact responded to directly by the 25 witness. 58 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask, Your Honor, maybe we could 2 move this along if we could get some better understanding on 3 how we can proceed, if Mr. McAuliffe can leave the room for a 4 few minutes? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, let's proceed. Why don't you 6 go on to your next question? That line of inquiry is going 7 nowhere, okay? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me see if I can back up. 9 What I'm trying to get into is how he conducted his search 10 for documents. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's see if we can 12 get back to that. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: So to get to the foundation of that, 14 you have to know where the documents -- where he keeps his 15 documents. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Well, I think he's told us 17 that he doesn't -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me ask -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. He's told us -- he's 20 explained to us where he lives, he explained to us where his 21 business is and where he spends his time and then he 22 explained to us the nature of the search that he conducted. 23 But he explained to us, as I understood him, that the nature 24 of the search was a function that he simply doesn't keep this 25 stuff. 59 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me see if I can cut to the 2 chase. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Good. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In the course of your considerable experience at 6 doing fundraising, is it correct that you don't keep paper of 7 any kind, you put nothing on paper, you generate no paper, 8 you receive no paper? 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. Argumentative and 10 mischaracterizes the testimony. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can correct it. Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: When I was at the Democratic 13 National Committee, there were many memos to, from, cc. 14 When I left the Democratic National Committee, Larry, I did 15 not take any documents with me. Whatever documents that may 16 have been generated at the DNC are at the DNC. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q And you left the DNC in 1994. 19 A The end of 1994. 20 Q But after 1994, you continued to play some role 21 in participating in fundraising for the 1996 campaign, 22 correct? 23 A In 1995, as I stated before, for seven or eight 24 months, I served as the national finance chairman of the 25 Clinton-Gore reelection committee. The same procedure held 60 1 forth there. I did not take any documents with me at that 2 point. 3 Q Where did you do your business in 1995 as national 4 chairman of the Clinton-Gore reelect committee? Where did 5 you work? 6 A I believe the address was 2000 K. The Clinton-Gore 7 headquarters. I can't remember the exact address. 8 Q And what were your duties and responsibilities as 9 chairman for that organization? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. That's outside the scope 11 of discovery. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just briefly. Just tell us that 13 and we'll move on. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. You know, I -- 16 Mr. McAuliffe, if you could, please summarize. 17 THE WITNESS: I served as probably the chief 18 cheerleader. Went out and traveled around the country and 19 spoke at meetings where they put people together to try to 20 get them -- encouraged them to be involved in the campaign. 21 I had nothing to do with the day-to-day operations. It was a 22 staff of 50 or 60 people that did the day-to-day operations. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q But you did take a part in Clinton-Gore 25 fundraising, correct? Simple question. 61 1 A I was the finance chairman. 2 Q Right. And you did liaise with the White House and 3 the Democratic National Committee from 2000 K Street, 4 correct? You had contact with those entities, correct? 5 A Sure. Correct. 6 Q And sometimes they would send you documents and 7 sometimes you would send them documents, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Sometimes they would send you e-mail, sometimes you 10 would send them e-mails, correct? 11 A I don't believe we had any e-mail. 12 Q Facsimiles? 13 A I'm sure there were faxes. 14 Q Hand deliveries? 15 A I'm sure of it. 16 Q Mail? 17 A I'm sure of it. 18 Q Okay. Now, where are the documents that were 19 generated when you worked at 2000 K Street today? 20 A Whoever the custodian of records for the 21 Clinton-Gore campaign is. The legal counsel of Clinton-Gore 22 said that all documents have to remain there. 23 Q During the time that you served as chairman of the 24 Clinton-Gore reelect committee -- 25 A Finance chairman. 62 1 Q Finance chairman. I take it people sometimes sent 2 documents to your home in McLean? 3 A I would have to say I don't remember one document 4 ever having been sent to my home. Could have, but I don't 5 recall that. People would generally send them to my office. 6 Q But you did work out of your home from time to 7 time, did you not? 8 A Not then, no. 9 Q You just testified to that. 10 A Not then, at that period. I did not testify to 11 that. 12 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You're mischaracterizing the 13 witness' testimony by confusing dates. Right now, the 14 witness has testified, he has a home office. He did not ask 15 where his business office was contemporaneous with his 16 service as finance chair of Clinton-Gore. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, another speaking 18 objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's all right. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: It's getting out of control. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. We'll talk about it. 22 Mr. McAuliffe, as I understand it, now with this 23 business you have in Florida, do you work out of your home 24 some? 25 THE WITNESS: I've had the office in Florida, sir, 63 1 since the beginning of 1996. I had an office here in 2 Washington, the lease was up several months ago. I did not 3 renew the lease, so I do not have an office here in 4 Washington besides my home. And that is three months old, 5 sir. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I gotcha. 7 I think we're now clear on all depositories 8 Mr. McAuliffe has had, all the homes he's had and the offices 9 he's had in the period in question. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How long did you have the office in Washington that 12 you say you recently gave up? 13 A 1997, 1998, until about three months ago. 14 Q What was the name of that office? 15 A It was just myself. That's where I worked out of. 16 Q And where was that? 17 A It was my own private business. 18 Q Where was that located? 19 A It was 816 Connecticut Ave. 20 Q And was there a name to that business? 21 A It was Terry McAuliffe. It was my business, what I 22 did. 23 Q Was there a suite at 816? 24 A Eleventh floor. 25 Q The Eleventh floor? 64 1 A Yes. I had the -- it was small, they're only 2500 2 square foot floors. 3 Q All right. Did anyone work with you in that suite? 4 A Alecia Dyer worked with me for a short time. She's 5 now in Florida. 6 Q How is that spelled? 7 A D-y-e-r. 8 Q Where is she in Florida? 9 A She's working down in Florida for Jefferson 10 National Title Insurance Company. 11 Q In what city in Florida? 12 A Orlando. 13 Q Anyone else? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Now, during the time that you worked at 816 16 Connecticut Avenue, you were engaged in fundraising 17 activities, correct? 18 A Not really. No. 19 Q Either as a volunteer or -- 20 A I had no responsibilities for anything at that 21 point. No. 22 Q Did you get any paper from the White House or 23 Democratic National Committee or any government agencies at 24 that address? 25 A No. 65 1 Q Did you take any documents when you closed that 2 office and deposit them somewhere else? 3 A No. 4 Q What happened to -- I take it you did get paper 5 during that period. 6 Please, Mr. Ben-Veniste. Please don't interrupt. 7 MR. BEN-VENISTE: I object. I object, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on just a second. If you're 9 going to make a lengthy objection, Mr. McAuliffe can step 10 out. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: It will be a very short 12 objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Mr. McAuliffe, go in 14 this room here, would you? You're going to get some exercise 15 today to get you in shape. 16 THE WITNESS: I need it. Okay. Thank you, sir. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You'll be right there and we'll 18 come and get you in a second. 19 (The witness was excused.) 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Mr. Ben-Veniste? 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Mr. Klayman has jumped from the 22 question did you receive communications from the DNC while 23 you were at home while you had an official position with the 24 DNC to now did you get paper in your private office, not 25 connected in his question to DNC or White House, so the 66 1 question is broad enough to encompass all of his business 2 correspondence and so forth. 3 There seems to be a tendency to do that, to ask a 4 pointed question and then in the next question lose the focus 5 in time and in scope to ask a broader question and then come 6 back and make a conclusion of incredulity that he could not 7 receive paper in his office. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, you know -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let Mr. Ben-Veniste finish, 10 please. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: This only prolongs the 12 proceeding, in my view. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, here's the problem and 14 it's good that the witness is not here, I don't want to 15 offend anybody, but there's a reality here and the reality 16 here is that what we're dealing with is the all-time leading, 17 renowned number one fundraiser for the Democratic Party. 18 Clearly the Republicans have their equivalent. 19 He has a very deep knowledge of what went on. He 20 has been involved in money matters. There are many federal 21 investigations underway, grand jury investigations, there are 22 civil lawsuits underway. 23 Neither Mr. McAuliffe nor Mr. Ben-Veniste, in 24 my view, want us to know whether paper was generated. 25 We're interested in paper that's relevant to this case. But 67 1 they're making this overly complicated because they're very 2 defensive about these other matters and we cannot get a 3 straight response to anything. 4 So, yes, he's right, I'm asking a pointed question 5 and then when I don't get a response to that, I'm just trying 6 to ask a question which he obviously must answer yes just to 7 lay a foundation so we can get it moving along. But they 8 don't want us to get this information because of all these 9 investigations. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Well, I think the record 11 would reflect as follows: Mr. McAuliffe has indicated to him 12 that it was his unwavering practice that whenever he worked 13 for the DNC or the Clinton-Gore election campaign committee 14 or whatever it was called, that on the cessation of those 15 responsibilities he left behind and did not take with him 16 documents that may have been generated, incoming and 17 outgoing, during that period of time. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and the point is -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And that's about all I think we're 20 ever going to get out of Mr. McAuliffe, to be quite blunt. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we may get it, we may -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, if you want to suggest, as 23 you are by your questions, that that's incredible, okay? I 24 have a bit of a problem with you on the grounds that that 25 really isn't the function of a deposition because the record 68 1 does speak for itself and you can certainly make the argument 2 to Judge Lamberth, for example, as you just have, that you 3 really didn't get the cooperation that you believe you are 4 entitled to because the witness didn't tell the truth or 5 whatever. 6 You can make whatever argument you can, but to keep 7 challenging him on the truthfulness of his testimony may be a 8 legitimate technique at the next proceeding. The discovery 9 angle of has, I think, been exhausted. We now know what he 10 did, where he did it and where the depository of the records 11 are. We seem to have reached the limit of that inquiry. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to use this as an 13 opportunity to prove at this point that he's not telling the 14 truth. I frankly don't believe he is. But what I'm trying 15 to do, as we've done in other depositions in this case and 16 other cases, is to find out where he keeps the documents and 17 to find out whether he searched for those documents in those 18 locations and that has turned up big fish, as this Court has 19 said in numerous orders. 20 So I'm not here to accuse him of anything, but I 21 want to find out where he keeps the documents, where he 22 searched, and that's the way you can prove that he's not 23 telling the truth. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But you have done so. We 25 have gone from the DNC to the K Street office to Kissimmee, 69 1 Florida and in each of those instances he has explained 2 the nature of his business in that place and the fact that 3 he did not bring records from the previous employment or 4 involvement with DNC or fundraising activities to the next 5 place. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, he's linking it back to the 7 DNC, but he may have gotten it from other sources. You see, 8 Mr. McAuliffe, even when he wasn't at the DNC, was working 9 with the DNC in unofficial capacities and working with the 10 White House in unofficial capacities. And, in fact, although 11 I don't intend to dwell on it, he is in line to run the 12 campaign in the year 2000 for Vice President Gore. He is the 13 lynch pin of fundraising in the Democratic Party, so he 14 obviously is in contact and he must have documentation. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But if he continues to deny 16 that, Mr. Klayman, we're back where we started from. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand, but I haven't had a 18 chance -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The inquiry into the depositories 20 is a negative question because he will not tell us there's 21 anything in them. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I know, but I haven't had a chance to 23 ask the questions, to put them on the record. This is -- 24 this is similar in a way -- rather than -- and no disrespect 25 intended, I mean, we went through 487 Fifth Amendment claims 70 1 by John Huang, the other way you can deal with these problems 2 is never to answer the question and you don't have to take 3 the Fifth. 4 That's what I'm getting here. I'm not getting 5 answers. So I'm just trying to lay the answers down so I can 6 get them and then we'll move on. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You are getting answers, but the 8 problem, Mr. Klayman, is you don't particularly care for the 9 answers. That's the problem we're having. But the point is 10 we've reached the point where we're trying to get blood out 11 of a rock. 12 Whatever you ask Mr. McAuliffe, he's going to say 13 that he didn't take the records with him and that puts us 14 back at square one. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, but I'd like to at least ask 16 the questions and find out where the locations are -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What kind of questions do you want 18 to ask him? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: -- and did you have documents there, 20 did you search. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you specifically want to take 22 him back to K Street and each of these places? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And ask him those three questions. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 71 1 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Did he search for documents that 2 he did not take with him? Now, that's a proposition that one 3 might put to somebody with a great deal of extra time on 4 their hands; did you search for documents you did not take 5 with you. 6 Two things, Your Honor, because this is on the 7 record and Mr. Klayman had a proclivity for putting things on 8 the record which in some instances are inaccurate. In 9 connection with making his argument, he has said that there 10 are investigations and civil cases, criminal investigations 11 and civil cases, involving Mr. McAuliffe and that's not true. 12 Neither of those assertions is true. 13 Mr. McAuliffe has cooperated with every inquiry, 14 and there have been many. He has never been a target of 15 any investigation, civil or criminal or congressional. And 16 there are, to my knowledge, no pending civil lawsuits. He's 17 testified about the only one in response to Mr. Klayman's 18 answer. Although it would be a great honor to be designated 19 to run the presidential election in the year 2000, 20 Mr. Klayman is again wrong about whether Mr. McAuliffe has 21 been designated to run the election in the year 2000. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Now, Mr. McAuliffe is 23 to reenter the room, there will be, as I understand it, a 24 limited inquiry as to whether in each of the places he has 25 indicated he has had an office whether he has searched for 72 1 these documents in those places. Just because there is a 2 possibility that despite his policy of not taking them with 3 him, he may have taken some stuff with him. Is that your 4 point? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. And I ask, Your Honor, to 6 strike the remarks. It's not necessary to impugn the 7 integrity of counsel. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, it isn't. It never is. 9 Mr. McAuliffe, please come back in. 10 (The witness returned.) 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What I was trying to get at, Mr. McAuliffe, is that 14 in your home in McLean that from time to time in the course 15 of your activities in trying to assist the Democratic Party, 16 the Clinton-Gore administration, or anything political, that 17 you do receive some paper there and generate some paper 18 there, correct? 19 A That's not correct. I may receive pictures, 20 invitations to events, but nothing beyond that. That's not a 21 correct statement. 22 Q I just asked you whether there was paper. I didn't 23 ask you what it was. You understand that, correct? 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection. Argumentative. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's argumentative. Please go on. 73 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you have a computer at your house? 3 A I do. 4 Q Do you ever use that computer? 5 A I keep a Rolodex on it, I keep Quicken for my 6 wife's and my checkbook, things to that nature. 7 Q Do you ever type out any letters or memoranda on 8 that computer? 9 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Objection, Your Honor. The 10 question is put in the present tense, as to what this witness 11 is now doing with a computer in his home. I object to it on 12 the grounds that it's far beyond the scope of this 13 deposition's purpose. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Have you ever -- I'll change it to 15 have -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Have you ever. 17 THE WITNESS: Have I ever typed a memo on that 18 particular computer? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Memo or a letter? 21 MR. BEN-VENISTE: To? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: To anybody. 23 THE WITNESS: Rarely. I mean, my secretary usually 24 would type up my letters. I don't normally type up my own 25 letters, but I'm sure on rare occasions there might have been 74 1 a letter cranked out on it. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And you have a secretary that works with you at 4 that location? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you had a secretary that works with you at 7 that location? 8 A As I stated before, Ms. Dyer worked with me in 1997 9 over at 816 Connecticut. She was not with me during my 10 political activities. 11 Q Did you ever prepare any kind of documents on that 12 computer related to fundraising activities? The computer at 13 your house in McLean. 14 A Not to my knowledge. 15 Q You can't remember? 16 A I don't believe I did, but not to my knowledge. 17 Q Did you ever write a letter out in your own 18 handwriting at your house in McLean related to fundraising? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you communicated since you left the DNC in 21 writing with any donors to the Democratic Party or the 22 Clinton-Gore campaigns? 23 A Have I ever sent them a letter? 24 Q Yes. 25 A I'm sure I've sent birthday letters or 75 1 congratulatory letters on children or something. I'm sure I 2 have. 3 Q And you've kept copies of those letters, correct? 4 A No. Sorry. 5 Q Have you ever sent them any letters regarding 6 contributions to the Democratic Party since you've let the 7 Democratic Party? 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Object to the form of the 9 question. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, it's overruled. 11 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Since you left the Democratic 12 Party? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, since you -- you're 14 right, Mr. Ben-Veniste. He hasn't left the party. 15 Mr. Ben-Veniste is correct. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Since you left the Democratic National Committee, 18 have you ever prepared letters or correspondence to donors to 19 the Democratic Party or the Clinton-Gore campaigns? 20 A For back then or today? I don't understand the 21 time period. 22 Q Up to the point that you left the Democratic 23 National Committee. 24 A While I was at the Democratic National Committee? 25 Q No. After you left. 76 1 A After I left the Democratic Party? 2 Q Up to today. 3 A Up to today? 4 Q Did you ever prepare anything in writing which was 5 sent to Democrat donors, to the party or the Clinton-Gore 6 campaigns? 7 A I'm sure there might have been invitations to 8 events where I may have scribbled on the invitation hope you 9 can help us. I'm sure of it. I can't give you a specific 10 instance today. 11 Q And you made copies of those communications. 12 A No, I did not make copies. Larry, I have no copies 13 of any correspondence as it relates to fundraising. I'm 14 sorry. I don't. I can say it so many times. I don't. Now, 15 we can sit here until 5:00. I don't have them. 16 Q Have you ever destroyed copies of any documents 17 related to fundraising from the point you left the Democratic 18 National Committee to the present? 19 A Don't believe I've ever destroyed any documents. 20 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Can we clarify -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on a second. 22 Mr. McAuliffe, step out again. I'm sorry. 23 (The witness was excused.) 24 MR. BEN-VENISTE: Your Honor, if documents is so 25 broad as to refer to solicitations with the witness has 77 1 already said he's thrown in the trash, then I suppose that 2 would constitute destroying a quote document. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then let him say that. You 4 don't have to help him, Mr. Ben-Veniste. 5 MR. BEN-VENISTE: He's already said it. That's the 6 problem. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. All right. 8 MR. BEN-VENISTE: You didn't listen when he said 9 it. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Come in, Mr. McAuliffe. Sorry to 11 keep doing this to you. 12 (The witness returned.) 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Please, ask your next 14 question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you have any documents in response to Exhibit A? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q And where did you search for documents in response 19 to Exhibit A? 20 A First of all, I knew I had no documents at all. 21 Q Did you search? 22 A I don't have a file that says -- 23 Q So I take it you did no search. 24 A I would have nothing to search. I have no files, 25 I have no documents. What I have are pictures, credentials 78 1 from a convention that I saved, memorabilia type items, 2 nothing that would be applicable to that subpoena, sir. 3 Q Since 1992, who has worked with you in a 4 secretarial or support capacity? 5 A Nobody in 1992. At the Democratic National 6 Committee and Clinton-Gore, Jason Mackintosh was my 7 assistant. 8 Q And where is he located today? 9 A He's in San Francisco. 10 Q Who does he work for? 11 A Montgomery Securities. 12 Q Next? Who else has worked for you in a secretarial 13 or support capacity? 14 A That's it besides Alecia. 15 Q Alecia would know about your document retention 16 practices? 17 A Yes. Mm-hmm. So would Mr. Mackintosh. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 19 reporter to mark as Exhibit 1. 20 (McAuliffe Deposition Exhibit No. 21 1 was previously marked for 22 identification.) 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Incidently, Your Honor, I know you've 24 been very, I think, understanding with regard to time in 25 these depositions. This has taken a lot of time, obviously. 79 1 We hope that the inordinate amount of time does not in any 2 way affect our ability to ask questions. I just wanted to 3 put that on the record. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we shall see. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q This is a two-page document and it's Exhibit 1. 7 On the first page, it's Business Leadership Forum. It bears 8 Bates number 03AKO321. And on the second page, there is a 9 brochure, DNC Business Leadership Forum, Events and 10 Membership Requirements, "Bi-Annual Economic Trade Missions" 11 listed second. 12 Have you seen this document before? 13 A I don't recall it, but I'm sure I've seen it many 14 times. 15 Q Did you authorize its production when you were 16 chairman of the Business Leadership Forum? 17 A I didn't authorize anything. That was not my 18 responsibility. It was handled on the staff level, sir. 19 Q Were these the requirements of annual membership as 20 listed on page 2 when you were chairman of the Business 21 Leadership Forum of the Democratic National Committee? 22 A I would have no reason to believe that they were 23 not. The only point I'd have is the date this was generated. 24 I see Richard Sullivan was the director. I'm not sure when 25 he came in. The director when I was there Jane -- another 80 1 woman, so I'm not sure if this was generated after I'd left 2 it. I just don't know the date. 3 Q Well, look at point 2 on the second page, 4 "Bi-Annual Economic Trade Missions. Beginning in 1994, BLF 5 members will be invited to join Democratic Party leadership 6 as they travel abroad to examine current and developing 7 political and economic issues." 8 A See, I'd left by then. 9 Q Does that refresh your recollection