IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. : 95-0133 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Washington, D.C. Friday, July 9, 1999 Deposition of JOHNNY CHUNG a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, 3rd and Constitution, N.W., Washington, D.C. commencing at 10:11 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA UTGOFF BRASWELL, ESQ. Assistant United States Attorney U.S. Attorney's Office 555 Fourth Street, N.W. 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 ALICE McKENNA, ESQ. Office of the General Counsel U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Deponent: BRIAN A. SUN, ESQ. O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun, LLP 100 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 700 Santa Monica, California 90401-1142 Also present: Thomas Fitton, President, Judicial Watch 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 5 CHUNG DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 11 Invitations 6 No. 12 Envelope 12 No. 12A Solicitation card 12 No. 12B Return card for contribution 12 No. 12C Campaign registration card 12 No. 13 Envelope 15 No. 13A Return envelope 15 No. 14 Washington Times Article dated July 8, 1999, "FBI Outlines China Attempts to Silence Chung" 131 No. 15 Photograph of Bernard Schwartz and President Clinton 163 No. 16 Fox News report by Carl Cameron dated May 24, 1999 173 No. 17 Washington Times article dated July 9, 1999, "Chung Warned to Shield Loral and Hughes" 178 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Before we begin this morning, 3 I wanted to make a statement just to convey to counsel 4 and to everyone else the terrible news that we just 5 have received, news that Judge Gasch passed away this 6 morning. 7 Judge Gasch was suffering from -- when I last saw 8 him, just about ten days ago, he was in the pink of health 9 and he went in for triple bypass surgery, complications set 10 in and he passed away this morning. 11 He was one of the few men in the history of 12 the District of Columbia who served both as Corporation 13 Council and United States Attorney, rescued the George 14 Washington University Law School night program when it 15 was about to close. 16 Few men in history have done more for this 17 community than Oliver Gasch. We regret his passing and 18 when we adjourn later, we will adjourn, of course, in his 19 honor. 20 It couldn't come at a worse time, his wife has 21 Alzheimer's and is institutionalized. A tough time for the 22 Gasch family. 23 That being said, let's proceed. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Chung, his brother passed away 25 and our condolences to him as well. 5 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is 2 the continuing video deposition of Johnny Chung. 3 I am the video specialist. For the record, my name 4 is Steve Garland. I am from Beta Reporting Services. The 5 court reporter today is Rita M. Hemphill. 6 We are rejoining the record on July 9, 1999 at the 7 time and date indicated on the video screen. 8 Would counsel please introduce themselves? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, General Counsel and 10 Chairman of Judicial Watch. 11 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, Judicial Watch. 12 MS. McKENNA: Alice McKenna, Office of General 13 Counsel, Department of Commerce. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell, U.S. Attorney's 15 office, on behalf of the Department of Commerce. 16 MR. SUN: Brian Sun on behalf of the witness, 17 Johnny Chung. 18 Whereupon, 19 JOHNNY CHUNG 20 was recalled as a witness and, after having been previously 21 sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: 22 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF (RESUMED) 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q You realize that you are still under oath, 25 Mr. Chung? 6 1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q I'm sure you're aware that being under oath means 3 that you will tell everything you know. 4 A That's correct. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 6 reporter to mark as the next exhibit, which is Exhibit 11. 7 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 11 8 was marked for identification.) 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 11 are copies of documents 10 which your counsel faxed to us after your last deposition. 11 I'll ask you to identify it, Mr. Sun. 12 MR. SUN: Exhibit 11 appears to be a copy of 13 invitations that Mr. Chung received or has received in 14 connection with political fundraisers or politically-related 15 fundraisers and these documents were forwarded to Judicial 16 Watch in response to a request at the last deposition, I 17 believe, that we look and see if Mr. Chung had any such 18 materials in his possession and this is what was forwarded to 19 you. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Before I ask you about these specific documents 22 which are Exhibit 11, we made reference the last time you 23 were here to a Democratic National Committee brochure, a 24 managing trustee brochure, that provided certain benefits for 25 contributing $100,000. 7 1 Did you have a chance to look for that brochure? 2 A I used to have it. 3 Q You testified that you gave it to the FBI, at the 4 last deposition. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Have you seen it otherwise since your last 7 deposition? 8 A No. 9 Q No? You're going to have to talk up a little bit. 10 A Oh, I'm sorry. 11 Q In fact, this is a video deposition as well as a 12 written deposition. 13 A Yes. 14 Q I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 11. 15 The first document, what is that, Mr. Chung? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I would object to 17 questions on these documents that are 1999 documents as to 18 really beyond the scope. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. He's dealing with this 20 subpoena. Hopefully, we'll move over them quickly. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I just want to identify them, please. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q What is this? 24 A This is House Democratic leader Richard Gephardt 25 asking me to go to fundraising party. 8 1 Q Dated May 15, 1999? 2 A Yes. May 15, 1999. Saturday. 3 Q Where was this received? At your business, 4 Automatic Intelligence Systems? 5 A That's correct. In my office. 6 Q Did you decide to go to that fundraiser? 7 A No. 8 Q What's the next document? 9 A It's also the Democratic Congressional Campaign 10 Committee. 11 Q Is this the document that has Honorable Charles 12 Rangel, DCCC Co-Chair? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And what is that? 15 A That's also a fundraiser letter. I told you that 16 last time. I did not pay too much attention to these any 17 more. 18 Q And this is asking you to attend a fundraiser on 19 June 10, 1999? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q With regard to these first two documents, did 22 anyone contact you orally? Other than your getting this by 23 fax or by mail, did anyone contact you and ask you to go? 24 A No. If they did, I won't answer the phone. 25 Q You don't remember them calling you? 9 1 A You have to understand that sometimes my engineer 2 answered most of the phone. I don't answer the phone by 3 myself after what happened, the incidents of the year. I 4 have so many very weird phone call. 5 Q Well, do you remember anyone leaving a message with 6 regard to these two fundraising solicitations? 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. The third one, what's the third one? It 9 says "Please join Senator Diane Feinstein and Senator Robert 10 Torricelli, the DSCC chairmen, for dinner and discussion in 11 Los Angeles, Wednesday, February 17th." Is that 199? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Requested contribution $10,000 per couple. Did you 14 decide to go to that? 15 A No. 16 Q Where was this sent to you, at Automated 17 Intelligence Systems? 18 A Yes. Sent to my office. 19 Q Did anyone contact you orally about this 20 solicitation? 21 A No. 22 Q The next document, this is a letter to you, 23 Mr. Johnny Chung, Chairman and CEO, "Dear Johnny," sent 24 on January 25, 1999 from Senator Robert G. Torricelli, 25 U.S. Senator. Was this received at your company, Automatic 10 1 Intelligence Systems? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Why is there something blacked out on the front? 4 A Because my fax machine had the trouble, like the 5 second pages we got over here? During that period of time, 6 we had a problem with our fax machine. I think I bring an 7 original copy over here, if you want to see it, you can see 8 it. 9 Q Do you have the original? 10 A Yes. 11 MR. SUN: This is the original. It's not much 12 better. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we substitute that? 14 MR. SUN: Yes, or make another copy, a copy of this 15 one. 16 THE WITNESS: The toner is not good. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: That's the only reason. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: The toner is not good. Okay. 20 We'll substitute a copy for that because the 21 original that you came with is readable. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that okay with you and your 24 counsel? 25 THE WITNESS: That would be fine. 11 1 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Thank you. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Were you ever contacted by anyone with regard to 4 this particular letter of January 25, 1999 from Senator 5 Robert Torricelli? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Who contacted you? 8 A Nobody contacted me. 9 Q Do you know whether a message was left at your 10 office with regard to that solicitation? 11 A No. 12 Q Turning to the next document, this is a letter from 13 Al Gore dated February 9, 1999 to Johnny Chung, 2771 Plaza 14 Del Amo, Suite 809, Torrance, California, is that the address 15 of Automatic Intelligence Systems? 16 A That's correct, sir. 17 Q That's your company that's in the fax business. 18 A Yes. 19 Q It consists of three pages and you've testified as 20 to how you received it and where previously, but did anyone 21 ever contact you orally about this solicitation? 22 A No. 23 Q Since the time of your last deposition on July 9th, 24 have you received any more fundraising solicitations? 25 A I do. 12 1 Q When did you receive them? 2 A Approximately two weeks -- two weeks ago. 3 Q And do you have a copy of those with you? 4 A I do. 5 Q Can I get a copy of those? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 8 One is an envelope -- can I mark these as exhibits? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask this be marked as Exhibit 11 12. 12 THE WITNESS: That's the same one. That's the 13 envelope. I'm sorry. That's the same one. That's the same 14 one. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll mark it anyway. 16 Exhibit 12 is a letter sent June 18, 1999, 33 17 cents U.S. postage to Johnny Chung at Automatic Intelligence 18 Systems, 2771 Plaza Del Amo, Suite 809, Torrance, 19 California. 20 I'll ask that we mark as Exhibit 12A the 21 solicitation card contained therein and Exhibit 12B the 22 return card for the contribution, Attention: Greg Evans, 23 and as 12C a card that says "Federal Election Rules, 24 Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, Los Angeles, 25 July 6, 1999." 13 1 (Chung Deposition Exhibits No. 12, 2 12A, 12B, and 12C were marked for 3 identification.) 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did I correctly identify the envelop as Exhibit 12? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And Exhibit 12A is the invitation card from 8 Honorable Richard A. Gephardt, Democratic House leader, and 9 Honorable Patrick J. Kennedy, DCCC Chair, invite you to a 10 reception at 6 p.m. benefitting the Democratic Congressional 11 Campaign Committee at the home of Michelle and Rob Reiner in 12 Brentwood, asking for various contributions. Have I 13 correctly identified that? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And Exhibit 12C is a little card that you fill out 16 on the back with the federal election rules where you check 17 off the contribution you want to make. Did I correctly 18 identify that? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And Exhibit 12B is the return card, Attention: 21 Greg Evans, where you put the money in, correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q You've seen documents like this before. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Did anyone contact you with regard to this 14 1 solicitation? 2 A No. 3 Q Did anyone leave a message for you with regard to 4 this solicitation? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you respond to this solicitation from the 7 Democratic Party? 8 A No. If not because of you, I would throw it away. 9 Q Thank you. Have you asked anyone since the date of 10 your last deposition to take you off the mailing list of the 11 Democratic Party? 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 14 You don't have to answer that, Mr. Chung. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 17 reporter to mark -- 18 THE WITNESS: I want to answer the question. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, you don't have to. 20 MR. SUN: Don't answer the question. When the 21 judge rules, you don't answer. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Don't worry about it. Don't worry 24 about it. Nobody listens to me anyway. 25 THE WITNESS: I thought he said I could answer the 15 1 question. I misunderstood. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's not a problem. Don't worry 3 about it, Mr. Chung. 4 THE WITNESS: I thought he said I could answer the 5 question. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 7 reporter to mark as Exhibit 13. This is an envelope from 8 Al Gore to Johnny Chung, hand addressed to Johnny Chung, 9 2771 Plaza Del Amo, Suite 809, Torrance, California, with an 10 contribution return envelope to Al Gore, P.O. Box 18958, 11 Washington, D.C. 20036-8958. We'll mark that as 13 and 13A 12 respectively, the envelope being 13 and the return envelope 13 being 13A. 14 (Chung Deposition Exhibits No. 13 15 and 13A were marked for 16 identification.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did I correctly identify these two documents, 19 Mr. Chung? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Did you get a new solicitation since your last 22 deposition or does this relate to the earlier one that you 23 identified? 24 A The earlier one. 25 Q And these are the original hand-addressed envelopes 16 1 to you and the return envelope? 2 A Yes, this is the one. 3 Q So these envelopes relate to the solicitation from 4 Al Gore which is part of Exhibit 11, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Have you received any solicitations any time in the 7 last two years from the Republican Party? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: My wife is a Republican, of course we 11 received some at home. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Are they addressed to you or to your wife? 14 A To my wife. 15 Q But you yourself don't get solicitations from the 16 Republican Party. 17 A I don't. I don't. 18 Q Has your wife contributed to the Republican Party 19 in the last two years? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Since the date of your last deposition, have you 24 provided documents of any kind relating to your involvement 25 in this whole campaign finance controversy to anybody? And 17 1 when I say you, you or your counsel. 2 A I don't think so. 3 MR. SUN: You have to speak up, Mr. Chung. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't really clearly understand 5 this question, okay? Because it is so wide. If I answer 6 that, I would say the last few weeks I have been talking to 7 the book publisher and then we have been talking a little bit 8 more, but not documentation at all. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q What book publisher have you been talking to? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that can lead to 14 admissible evidence, what was said. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you discuss with the book publisher the history 17 of your whole involvement in the campaign finance 18 controversy? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection. 20 MR. SUN: I'm going to object as well, Your Honor. 21 I don't think this line of inquiry leads to anything 22 relevant. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's see. It might lead to 24 it in the sense that if he discussed with this book publisher 25 writing his memoirs. His intention to memorialize what 18 1 occurred in reference in these matters might have some 2 peripheral relevance. 3 Are you going to write a book about this, 4 Mr. Chung? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I've been saying all day long, 6 I mean, since I was under government protection. Everybody 7 encouraged me to do so. A part of American history. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you convey to the book publisher some of the 11 things that you were going to write? 12 A Not that much. Not that much. I was writing a 13 contribution in terms of feeling about my whole family and 14 then what has been reported on the news. 15 Q And who did you talk to? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: I remember there's two. One is 19 New York, Sun Martin Press, the company who published 20 Monica Lewinsky's book, and the other one is here in 21 Washington, D.C., I wish my pronunciation is correct, 22 Regnoire. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Regnoire? 25 A Yes. Regnoire. 19 1 Q And who did you talk to at both places? 2 A One is -- I don't remember the name of the one is 3 in Sun Martin Press in New York. I personally talked to Mr. 4 Regnoire. 5 Q Did he contact you or did you contact him? 6 A Oh, my book agent. 7 Q Who is your book agent? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What information did you give to Mr. Regnoire about 12 your experience? 13 A Basically, I didn't talk too much. The book agent 14 talked about it. That's the way it should be. And then -- 15 Q Did this conversation occur in person? 16 A I only talked to Mr. Regnoire once. 17 Q In person? 18 A In person, yes. In his office. 19 Q In the last day or so? 20 A No. Last ten day or two weeks. Two weeks ago. 21 Q So you were here in Washington two weeks ago? 22 A I was here in Washington, D.C. one week ago. 23 Q Why didn't you contact Judicial Watch or the Court 24 so we could have deposed you at that time, so we wouldn't 25 have to go to this expense? 20 1 A Nobody told me I should contact you. If you want 2 to save the money for Judicial Watch, I will tell you that I 3 don't even cash your first check. I tried to save you money. 4 Q You are aware, are you not, that we have through 5 credit cards and checks paid over $4000 to bring you here 6 today. 7 A Yes, I do. I really -- and I also want you to know 8 I tried to shop around for the cheap a ticket as I can, but I 9 cannot save any money for your organization, but I do really 10 want to save money. 11 Q Well, my question is why didn't you let us know -- 12 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I don't think this is 13 productive. We have limited time. Mr. Klayman said he had 14 two hours left to do this depo, I'd like to move on to 15 substantive matters. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Well, let's just finish 17 this thing. 18 As I understand, Mr. Klayman, the witness did come 19 to Washington. 20 And his question, Mr. Chung, is a simple one. Did 21 it occur to you to call Mr. Klayman and have your deposition 22 done when you were here for another reason? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, first of all, I don't know I 24 should call you guys every time when I come to Washington, 25 D.C. or not. Two, I never know the date and the time until a 21 1 few days earlier when I have the meeting with the publisher 2 over here. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 4 THE WITNESS: And -- 5 MR. SUN: That's enough, Mr. Chung. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It isn't enough. The judge -- 7 Your Honor, I don't think that's right. I mean, we 8 spent $42,000 to bring him here, so we're going to ask the 9 Court for some relief on that. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's fine. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: We paid by credit card -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll be glad to look at that. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Thank you. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Now, did you meet with Mr. Regnoire on any other 16 occasion and talk to him? 17 A No. 18 Q What did you tell him? You said you told him some 19 things. 20 A I speak more -- I think I speak somewhere around 21 five minutes. Most of the time is the agent talk for me and 22 that was it. 23 Q Well, just tell me what you said. 24 A What happened to the newspaper and recently what 25 happened to the Chinese intelligent director as to the report 22 1 even before the English newspaper come out, he has been 2 assigned -- I mean -- how do you say in English -- he been 3 pulled away to teach because I read it from the Internet 4 Chinese newspaper and I feel vindicated. And also surviving 5 the scandal, what kind of impact to my family. How I feel 6 deep inside my heart about all of this. 7 And I supposed to go to the Congress for two days 8 deposition -- I mean hearing, they questioned for hours, and 9 I did the best I can, answered all of the questions and laid 10 out all of the fact on the table. That's all I can remember 11 now. 12 At that time when they come down to the money, how 13 much it was going to be, I don't really want to talk about, 14 but we didn't even make a deal. 15 Q And how long was the entire meeting? 16 A One hours, one hour and a half. It's a lunch 17 meeting at his office. 18 Q And who else was present? 19 A A bunch of his company's people. 20 Q Do you know who they were? 21 A They didn't give me the business card, but they are 22 all his company's. 23 Q Aside from your agent, was anyone else present 24 other then Regnoire's people and your agent and your you? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to this continued line of 23 1 questioning. 2 MR. SUN: Joined. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, it's the same relevancy, 5 I just want to see -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We know he spoke to these people. 7 Go ahead. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there's an incentive when 9 you're talking in this context to actually come forward with 10 some unique information because you're trying to sell it, so 11 there may be something very relevant here. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Can you remember who was at the 13 meeting besides the people you mentioned, the names? 14 THE WITNESS: No. The only person I know is -- 15 it's very difficult to pronounce his last name. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Regnoire. 17 THE WITNESS: Regnoire. I call him 18 "Mr. Publisher." 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: There were other people in the 20 room, but -- 21 THE WITNESS: And then the other one sat next to me 22 and at the other end of the table is the president of the 23 company. And the rest of them, ladies and gentlemen I don't 24 really remember their name. They all belong to their 25 company. 24 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Was your counsel present, Mr. Sun? 3 A No. 4 Q No lawyers present. 5 A No. 6 Q Now, you gave me the subject matter of what you 7 talked about, but what specifically did you say about General 8 Ji? 9 A Not that much. 10 Q Tell me what you said. 11 A Not that much. What happened to -- what happened 12 to my testimony I just repeated to them. My 30 pages where I 13 say what -- this is what happened and then they got a 14 newspaper, they can read. And that is not a part of the 15 issue they asked me. That's not -- they are not too much 16 interested with the already reported article, the story. 17 Q Well, just tell me what you said. That's all. 18 A I said as I know I am the only one out of 121 19 witness come up and tell the whole truth, that it's not easy, 20 but I think it's the right way to do it and the right thing 21 to do. I told them again like what I said to the Congress. 22 My daughter asked me, Dad, whether you like it or 23 not, it's a part of American history, what you want to do 24 with it? And I told them that I answered the question to my 25 daughters I want to set the record straight, I want to tell 25 1 them the whole truth, and then I mentioned to them about -- 2 they asked me -- yes, they asked me why you want to write 3 this book. 4 I say I have a responsibility to my family, to 5 my children, they are very, very young, three and five 6 years old and one coming up Christmas, and I have a 7 responsibility to them, to let them know what happened. 8 I have a responsibility to my community and to my country. 9 And that's why I want to write a book. He specifically 10 asked me why you wanting to write this book. 11 Q And he asked you what do you have that's new that 12 we don't already know, correct? 13 MR. SUN: Objection. No foundation. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: Answer the question? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q He asked you that, didn't he? 19 A Yes, he did. Not he asked me, somebody else. 20 Q Okay. And what did you tell them? 21 A I tell them that I told whole truth to the 22 government already, but according to the news report, this 23 still did not come out to the light yet. I said everything I 24 know already and then they are still not reporting in the 25 newspaper yet some of it. 26 1 Q And you then told them at Regnoire Publishing what 2 that was, correct? 3 MR. SUN: Objection. Leading. No foundation. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 5 MR. SUN: Mr. Chung did not say that and that's not 6 what they asked him. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait a second here. You know, he 8 wants to come in here and he wants to tell the truth. You're 9 acting as an advocate on behalf of a political interest here. 10 Let him tell the truth. 11 MR. SUN: I don't appreciate your leading my client 12 into -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: He's an adverse witness. 14 MR. SUN: -- evidentiary conclusions where you've 15 laid no foundation. You can ask the witness did so and so 16 ask you something. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, there's a judge here, 18 Mr. Sun. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if we can figure this 20 out. 21 Now, when they were talking to you about this book, 22 okay? Did they ask you, as Mr. Klayman said, that you knew 23 something that no one else did, that there was something new 24 that your book would say that not all the other books about 25 this controversy hadn't said? Did they ask you that? 27 1 THE WITNESS: One of the -- I don't remember, 2 gentleman or lady, asked me that question. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And what did you say? 4 THE WITNESS: I said I told the whole truth to the 5 government, but a lot of things still didn't come out to the 6 newspaper yet. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'm entitled to ask a 8 leading question. He is adverse. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Go ahead. Ask your 10 question. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: So my question is, and I ask the 12 Mr. Sun be instructed not to interrupt -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, he can object if 14 he wants to. You ask your question. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Not with a speaking objection. 16 MR. SUN: I will object if I think it's 17 appropriate, Mr. Klayman. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's see if we can -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: The judge makes that decision. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead, Mr. Klayman. Ask your 21 question. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q You then told them what it was that you had told 24 the government that hadn't come out yet, correct? 25 A I said, well, the newspaper haven't come out yet. 28 1 I didn't say the government didn't come out yet. 2 Q All right. And then what did you tell them that 3 didn't come out yet? 4 A Larry, I haven't make a deal with them at that 5 time. Why should I tell them? I mean, it's -- 6 Q I don't understand what you just said. 7 A They haven't tell me they want a book or not, why 8 should I tell them everything I know? 9 MR. SUN: He's asking you what did you tell them. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You did tell them what it is that hasn't come out 12 yet in your testimony. 13 A Yes. 14 Q And what did you tell them? 15 A I only said, well, most of them, it didn't come out 16 yet. I tell the whole truth. 17 Q I'm trying to -- let me just preface this -- 18 A I give them -- 19 Q Let me just preface this. I know Al Regnoire, I 20 can ask Al Regnoire, but I want to get it from you under 21 oath, so tell me now what you told them because I'm going to 22 ask Al Regnoire. Please answer. 23 A I tell them that I tell the whole truth to the 24 government, which is Department of Justice and the FBI. And 25 obviously so many detail in there is not coming out yet. And 29 1 didn't see it on the news report. And some of the question 2 during my question and answer by the FBI and Department of 3 Justice -- as you know, I want to tell the whole truth to set 4 the record straight, but sometimes I also want to give them 5 the information during that two years, the last two years, 6 and sometimes the question has been stopped, so my answer 7 didn't continue to go on. 8 Q Well -- 9 A I'm telling you what I said to him, okay? And he 10 asked me what is that. I say in my point, I think they don't 11 want to know the truth. 12 Q Who is they? 13 A The government. 14 Q The government? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And you then told him what the truth was? 17 A To -- 18 Q To Regnoire and his people. 19 A No. No. No. No. No. The question was stopped 20 right there. 21 Q Why didn't you tell them? 22 A You mean in detail? 23 Q Mm-hmm. 24 A I've been questioned and answered by the government 25 for two years. How could I have detailed -- even you cannot 30 1 give me questions -- 2 Q Well, I'll ask you a question -- 3 MR. SUN: For the record, Your Honor, I believe 4 that Mr. Chung is maybe not quite understanding Mr. Klayman's 5 questions. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's a possibility. Go ahead. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: He understands it quite well, 8 Your Honor. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q I'll ask you now, what is it that hasn't come out? 11 Tell us right now. 12 A Your Honor, answer the question? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please. If you can. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm going to do the best I 15 can. What happened, the detail, when I give the $50,000 to 16 Maggie Williams' staff at the White House, basically the 17 general information is there, but the detail, it didn't come 18 out. 19 What happened to the question to the Secretary 20 Energy, Hazel O'Leary, I give them the best memory I squeeze 21 myself, as detailed as I can, and the detail didn't come out 22 yet. The detail of how it happened. 23 And then what happened with the detail of under the 24 government protection, the 21-day for my family, not easy, 25 and when I been learned, there's two group of people coming 31 1 out after me. It doesn't come out. 2 And what happened -- another one, which is an 3 Asian-American female two weeks before my sentencing tried to 4 contact me even one hour before my sentencing date, still 5 call me and try to -- I don't know how to use the words -- 6 try to ask me for money and I am a witness before the Court 7 right now, Your Honor, if I don't have to say it, I don't 8 want to say it because there is a legal pursuit. 9 MR. SUN: For the record, Your Honor, Mr. Chung has 10 been advised by law enforcement authorities that they are 11 conducting an investigation of a woman who contacted 12 Mr. Chung prior to his sentencing and appeared to engage 13 in conversations with him that might have suggested she was 14 in a position to solicit him or perhaps extort money from 15 Mr. Chung. That matter is under investigation and he's 16 a potential witness in that matter. That's what he's 17 referring to. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Sun. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Let's go back to your listing certain things and 21 give us the information that has not been provided. Let's 22 start with the issue of the $50,000 check and Maggie 23 Williams. What is it that hasn't come out yet, the details? 24 A Larry, I will try to give you the best I can. 25 Q Yes. Give us all the information. 32 1 A The best I can. 2 Q Take your time. 3 A It's 1995. 4 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I have to interpose this 5 objection for the record, if I could, just for the line of 6 questioning. I don't see the connection or the nexus between 7 this line of inquiry and anything related to the Department 8 of Commerce. 9 Mr. Chung is making reference to, I believe, a 10 March 1995 visit of some business representatives -- business 11 officials from the People's Republic of China. I believe 12 he's also making reference to a situation where he and his 13 family were under temporary relocation and protective custody 14 by the FBI. 15 And also I do believe, actually, the Hazel O'Leary 16 matter might have some tangential reference -- actually, I'm 17 wrong. She's Department of Energy, so I don't think that has 18 anything to do with the Department of Commerce. So I just 19 want to state my objection to this line of inquiry for the 20 record. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. Overruled. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Continue. Tell us everything you know. 24 A There's one more. On May -- May -- no, there's one 25 more. On May 20, 1999, there is one Italian-American come to 33 1 my office, the kind instant -- 2 Q The kind of what? 3 A Instant. The kind of situation. Make me feel very 4 nervous and I happen to have FBI agent right there in my 5 office, I call them up and ask them to come over, but that 6 don't come out yet, okay? And then -- 7 Q The FBI -- 8 A The FBI almost pull out a gun to protect me inside 9 my own office and that's why, Larry, I don't answer the phone 10 by myself any more. 11 Q Let's back up to the Maggie Williams and the check. 12 Tell me everything you know about that. 13 A The day when I decided to invite those people to go 14 to which I call my wish list for them, I contact with Richard 15 Sullivan. He is kind of -- the best way I can say it, to 16 pretty hard to get in the DNC. 17 I went to the OEOB 100, which is White House, and I 18 asked Evan Ryan, Maggie Williams' assistant, and I showed to 19 her my wish list and then I said I would be very happy to do 20 whatever I can, the best memory I can remember. 21 Then I showed her all of the business cards of my 22 guests and my wish list. I remember she walked out of her 23 office and she talked to Maggie Williams and that's what she 24 said to me. 25 Then come back and said to me during 1994 Christmas 34 1 party, First Lady had a lot of debt to the DNC, Democratic 2 National Committee, and Christmas party expense. I remember 3 the best recollection I can get is $80,000. I stay with what 4 I say to Tom Brokaw last time when he give me the interview, 5 that I am going to give the best recollection I can have. 6 And Evan Ryan said to me Maggie Williams said it 7 will be nice if you can help for that debt to the DNC. My 8 light bulb goes on at that time. I say, yes, I would be very 9 happy to help for $50,000. And then that was the 10 conversation. 11 And I went back next day with the check and with 12 the envelope in my hand. The envelope I remember said Dear 13 Ms. Maggie or Dear Ms. Williams, this is the best I can help. 14 And thank you. Sincerely, Johnny Chung. That's what I 15 remember I said in there. 16 Again, I want to stand behind whatever I said to 17 Tom Brokaw at that interview. 18 And then when I handed over the check with the 19 envelope, it did not seal, to Evan Ryan and she asked me, 20 well, you can hand it to her. 21 Q Who is her? 22 A Maggie Williams. Then Maggie Williams come in and 23 then I hand it over to her. She took me back to her office 24 on the corner, OEOB 100. She picked up the phone and called 25 White House mess, make a reservation for me immediately. My 35 1 wish list was part of the -- part of my wish list is to have 2 lunch at the White House mess. 3 And that day when we have everybody come in to have 4 lunch at the White House mess, we also have a tour at the 5 White House, but since then the First Lady was in Europe 6 somewhere is coming back, so what we did is everybody had to 7 go back to the hotel to rest after the tour and lunch and 8 then we come back somewhere around 3:00, my best 9 recollection, you can find out from White House records. 10 I remember clearly that was the day to honor 11 national teacher. They want to give a reward to the national 12 teacher. When we passing by -- and they set it up the First 13 Lady is going to receive us -- when we passing by in the 14 White House, Maggie Williams give me the kind of eye which 15 mean everything is already set up. 16 I was inside -- now I know that's Map Room -- 17 Map Room -- and then I asked Evan Ryan the First Lady know 18 I give the contribution. She say she definitely know. When 19 she come in, handshake, I remember she said, "Welcome to the 20 White House, my good friend." 21 Q Who said that? 22 A The First Lady. 23 Q When she came into the Map Room. 24 A Yes. 25 Q And what did she say? 36 1 A We handshake, and then she said, "Welcome to the 2 White House, my good friend." And obviously they got their 3 own interpreter, which is the group, Chinese businessmen, so 4 they introduced one by one. She invite us to join her to the 5 national teacher's reward inside the White House. This is 6 kind of detail. 7 MR. SUN: Your Honor, could I make this observation 8 now that Mr. Chung has answered this question? 9 I thought that Mr. Klayman's inquiry was on the 10 issue of whether there was something startling or new that 11 had been brought out. Hearing Mr. Chung, I can say for the 12 record, Your Honor, I believe all this is not new to the 13 extent this is information that was given to the government. 14 We run the danger here if this line of inquiry is 15 pursued of listening to Mr. Chung orally write his book and I 16 don't think that's the purpose of this deposition. 17 I have no objection to Mr. Klayman going into 18 aspects of how the Department of Commerce had contacts with 19 Mr. Chung and possibly any connections that folks from the 20 Department of Commerce might have that are finance-related 21 activities, which I believe and understand to be the purpose 22 of the deposition. 23 And so I would make that observation and ask that 24 this line of inquiry be curtailed and focused in that 25 direction. 37 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 2 (Interruption to the proceedings.) 3 THE WITNESS: Can I have some more hot water, if I 4 can? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, why don't we take -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, can I respond to that? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's take five minutes. 8 (A brief recess was taken.) 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off record at 10:57. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We'll take five minutes. 11:05, 11 please, everybody. 12 (A brief recess was taken.) 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on record at 11:06. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Initially, Your Honor, we have 15 already actually gotten testimony in this area before, Your 16 Honor made rulings at the last deposition. 17 Secondly, part of Mr. Chung's wish list, which is 18 directly relevant to this, deals with a desire to meet with 19 Secretary Ron Brown at the Commerce Department. 20 Thirdly, this is part of a continuing course of 21 conduct in terms of his activities which led to his 22 participation in trade missions. So it's clearly relevant 23 and I'm sure Your Honor will recognize that. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead and pursue it. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 38 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Where were we when we left off before 2 the objection? 3 What was the last response by Mr. Chung, if you can 4 read that back to help refresh his recollection as to where 5 he was? 6 MR. SUN: Not the whole response, just the last 7 few -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we don't want the whole response. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Not the whole 10 (The record was read back by the court reporter.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q What happened after that? 13 A After everybody took pictures and then she said I'm 14 going to address to the National Teachers Association is at 15 the White House, the first floor, and you guys are welcome to 16 join us. So I took all of my guests, listened to her speech, 17 standing in the back. And then we come out. 18 Q What was on the wish list that you gave to Maggie 19 Williams? 20 A The best recollection I got is White House mess for 21 lunch, tour of the White House, meeting with the First Lady, 22 meeting with the President of United States, and I remember 23 also a meeting with Secretary Ron Brown. One of the reason 24 is the head of this delegation, he is the chairman of chamber 25 of commerce of China and he met late Secretary Ron Brown back 39 1 there in China. And he came to United States, invited Mr. 2 Chin, Chin Hu Yi, the former chairman of chamber of commerce 3 of Commerce. 4 He was invited by the United States Chamber of 5 Commerce and he asked me to be a host, joint host, tour them 6 around in Washington, D.C. area. I did. My wish list, one 7 of them is to meet with the late Secretary Ron Brown. 8 Q Did you get your meeting with the President? 9 A I do. 10 Q You did? 11 A I did. 12 Q And when did you have that meeting or meetings? 13 Did you have more than one? 14 A That specific meeting, up to today, I told the FBI 15 and the Department of Justice, is still very confusing 16 because I get all my wish list during that time except 17 meeting with the President and Secretary Ron Brown, all the 18 others are fulfilled. 19 MR. SUN: Mr. Chung, I believe the question was -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let him answer. Just let him answer. 21 MR. SUN: -- how many meetings did you have with 22 the President -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Gentlemen, please -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Just let him answer. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's -- 40 1 MR. KLAYMAN: He can answer in his own way, 2 Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 4 The question, Madam Reporter, was what, please? 5 (The record was read back by the court reporter.) 6 THE WITNESS: With the President? With this group 7 or myself? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Either. 9 THE WITNESS: With this group, one. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And when did that occur? 12 A It is on the -- Your Honor, I don't remember the 13 date, but there is two day later after we met with the First 14 Lady. I think March 11, March 12. 15 Q Where did that meeting take place? 16 A Radio address at Saturday in the Oval Office. 17 Q That's the famous radio address. 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Was there a meeting after that or meetings after 20 that? 21 A No, just a handshake. They present to the 22 President a stone, jade stone, they say wish you long life. 23 And then also they said, Mr. President, we hope you can come 24 to visit China some day. And that was the whole entire 25 conversation. Pictures and then we walk out. 41 1 Q You considered the pictures to be part of your wish 2 list? 3 A Oh, very important. As I said to the Congress, the 4 picture with the President is the weight of the gold. 5 Q Now, you said the issue was a little confused, you 6 started to explain that, as to whether the meetings with the 7 President were part of your wish list. Do you want to expand 8 on that? 9 A Yes. When I give that $50,000 to Maggie Williams 10 and then nobody set up the meeting with the President. And I 11 asked her, she said, well, that's a different line, I only 12 take care of the First Lady part. For meeting with the 13 President, is a different issue. I cannot help. 14 And I said, well, I already donated 50,000 and this 15 is my wish list, how come I cannot get it? And I have guests 16 over here. I was a little bit confused so back and forth, I 17 been calling DNC and I been talking to the people inside the 18 White House, Maggie Williams' office. 19 Finally some time -- that was Friday, I believe, it 20 is a Friday and Saturday. Friday finally somebody call my 21 apartment here in Washington, D.C. and say you can come to 22 White House 10:00 with your guests for radio address. 23 I remember I received two phone calls, one is from 24 White House, I don't remember the name, a female. And the 25 other phone call is from DNC, a female. Could be Carol 42 1 Khare. 2 Q How is that spelled? 3 MR. SUN: Khare. I think it's K-h-a-r-e. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I only remember she is the 6 special assistant to Don Fowler, then the chairman. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And what did this woman tell you from the DNC? 9 A That's why I tried to explain to you it's very 10 confused. 11 Q As best you can. 12 A At that time -- up to today, I still don't know who 13 set it up, the meeting for me, okay? But I received one 14 phone call from White House, one phone call from DNC. And 15 then they ask me to bring my guests 10:00 in the morning. 16 That's the best -- that's the best I gave it to the FBI. 17 Q What did the person from the White House tell you, 18 the woman whose name you don't remember? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q From the First Lady's office, what did that person 21 tell you? 22 A No, it's not a First Lady office. I think it is 23 someone who in charge of all the radio address. 24 Q What did she tell you? 25 A Bring your guests to the Pennsylvania Avenue 43 1 entrance at 10:00. 2 Q So you took that to mean that your wish list was 3 being honored. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q That you were getting your meeting with the 6 President for your $50,000. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q When you first contacted the Democratic National 9 Committee to register your complaint that you had paid 10 $50,000 and weren't getting the meeting with the President, 11 did you speak with anyone at that time? 12 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 14 THE WITNESS: My best recollection, I did speak 15 with Richard Sullivan of the DNC. I did speak with Carol 16 Khare of the DNC. I speak with the DNC -- one of the 17 gentlemen named Eric Suldon. 18 MR. SUN: I think it's Selden, S-e-l-d-e-n. 19 THE WITNESS: Selden. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Silden, S-i-l-d-e-n. 21 THE WITNESS: Silden. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Okay. We all know him. Go on. And what did you 24 tell him? 25 A I paid $50,000 and this is my wish list, how come 44 1 the last one is so important and I cannot get it. I give the 2 money already, I gave the money already, and then I -- it is 3 important for this group of people, my guests, I want to do 4 business because this is chairman of chamber of commerce. 5 They promise me some day when I go back to China I can have a 6 good business. 7 One thing I did not know, I make a record here, 8 after the radio address, their visit over here in the United 9 States, within 45 days, that chairman of chamber of commerce 10 resigned, retired. 11 All my investment and everything is gone, okay? 12 And then he is very tricky, he didn't tell me he is going to 13 be retired and he just have his final wish list to be 14 granted. And up to today, I am still taking a lot of heat 15 for asking nothing. 16 Q Taking heat from the Chinese? 17 A Newspaper, the United States government, including 18 Judicial Watch ask me after four years, same old story over 19 and over, and that guy just retired like old man in the 20 countryside and doing nothing. He hanging the pictures over 21 there in his house and he did not tell me 45 days after that 22 visit in the White House he is going to retire. He already 23 knew it, but he didn't tell me. 24 Q So what you're basically saying is you went to 25 all this trouble, you paid the $50,000, you created a 45 1 controversy, and then the guy wasn't even there to take 2 advantage of. 3 A No. 4 Q Right? 5 A Yes. And I cannot even ask him for any help for my 6 business in the future because he retired. Retired 45 days 7 after that visit in the White House. But I did learn 8 something, when I tried to rescue Harry Wu, the other people 9 did help me. That's the only thing I can say. But after 10 today, Harry Wu still think I got nothing to do with it. 11 Q What other people are you talking about? 12 A The other group of people who came to the White 13 House. The other businessmen with this delegation. 14 Q That delegation? 15 A Yes. They did help me to rescue Harry Wu. 16 Q What did Sullivan and Ms. Khare and Mr. Silden tell 17 you when you said you wanted to get the value of your 18 $50,000? Did they say anything back? 19 A Before or after? 20 Q When you contacted them and said I paid $50,000, I 21 want my meeting with the President, can I get it. What did 22 they say to you in response? The first time you contacted 23 them. 24 A The first time, before we visit, they pretty hard 25 to get and now they even pretty harder to get. That's what I 46 1 can remember. 2 Q Well, but you told them what you wanted, right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. And what did they? They said we'll take 5 care of it? 6 A I don't remember exactly conversation, but the 7 attitude is a played harder to get. 8 Q What? 9 A Played harder -- harder to get. 10 Q What do you mean? 11 A It is more difficult to get my wish list to be 12 granted. Than even before I give it to them the $50,000. 13 Q But when you contacted them, when you were told 14 your $50,000 wasn't going to the President, it was going to 15 the First Lady, when you contacted the DNC to complain, what 16 did these people say to you at that time? 17 A I don't remember exactly language they said to me, 18 but their attitude to me I remember, it's even pretty harder 19 to get than before I give it the $50,000 to them because I 20 told you that I asked them -- I showed to them my wish list 21 and Richard Sullivan said to me at the very beginning it's 22 very difficult to get, pretty hard to get. And now it's 23 pretty more harder to get. 24 Q But they told you that they would try to get it for 25 you. 47 1 A Not Richard Sullivan. Not Eric Silden. Maybe 2 Carol Khare. 3 Q And ultimately you were notified by Carol Khare 4 that you had gotten it. 5 A Yes. Her and the other person in the White House. 6 That's why I up to today, this question, Larry, has been 7 asked to me by FBI and the Department of Justice and I been 8 answer that over and over again. 9 Very confused because it's in the Friday night, 10 finally I am in the very, very -- I was really -- I use the 11 word panic, I want to grant all my wish list to be granted, 12 but it happened to be the last one is very difficult. And 13 until late Friday night, finally somebody called me. I don't 14 care who told me that, the only thing I really cared is 10:00 15 at the gate, bring your guests, and I remember two phone 16 call. But very confused. Up to today, I still searching who 17 did the job for us. I cannot answer your question. 18 Q You were very happy when you found that out. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Relieved. 21 A Big relief. 22 Q You were able to save face with your colleagues. 23 A Yes. That's what I said is putting powder on my 24 face. 25 Q You had paid the money into the turnstile and you 48 1 got something back. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Now, the other part of your wish list, a meeting 4 with Ron Brown. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q You got your meeting with Ron Brown eventually? 7 A No. What happened is I tried to call people who I 8 know, this is one of very few instance I have contact with 9 John Huang. As I told you, contact with him. I remember 10 what he said to me is Ron Brown is under Independent Counsel 11 investigation during that time and it's very inconvenient to 12 meet any foreign guests. 13 Be honest with you, I do not know what Independent 14 Counsel during that time. I take it some kind of serious 15 situation, but I don't care, I want to have a meeting. It 16 not happen. So we have two phone call, one from when I call, 17 one when he called me regarding setting up the meeting. 18 Finally, he said I will stop at the J.W. Marriott 19 Hotel which is your guests all stay there. I will stop by 20 and explain to them this is not appropriate time to meet with 21 the late Secretary Ron Brown. And he came in and he 22 explained to everybody and they took a picture with him 23 inside the hotel room and goodbye. 24 Q When you say he came by, Secretary Brown? 25 A No. No. No. No. 49 1 Q Huang? 2 A Huang. John Huang. 3 Q So the whole delegation got a picture with John 4 Huang. 5 A Yes. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me. In that sentence, did 7 Brown come to the Marriott? 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I see. 10 THE WITNESS: No. The only reason why John Huang 11 come in is under my request and I say would you please 12 explain to this delegation it's not appropriate time to meet 13 with the late Secretary Ron Brown and then he did the job and 14 then he come in and explain to all of those people. And 15 obviously I can see that he know them, they know him. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you know how they knew him? 18 A I don't know, but I think it is when he was there 19 in China, maybe that's the reason -- I told you he was the 20 chairman of the chamber of commerce of China. 21 Q When you were there in China on the trade mission. 22 A Yes. I don't know how they know each other, but I 23 take the idea is Mr. Chin, the chairman of chamber of 24 commerce, that he is very famous in world business circle. 25 Q At the time that Mr. Huang came over to the J.W. 50 1 Marriott to explain that Secretary Brown couldn't meet 2 because he was under Independent Counsel investigation, 3 Mr. Huang worked for the Department of Commerce, correct? 4 A Yes. Yes. But did he mention Independent Counsel, 5 those words, that I don't know. It is very difficult. He is 6 under investigation. 7 Q Now, what did Mr. Huang tell you why being under 8 investigation, Secretary Brown, would make it impossible to 9 meet? 10 A No, and I don't care. That's not my wish list to 11 know. 12 Q But some of the people in that room asked, didn't 13 they? 14 A No. No. The people didn't really care. Pictures. 15 Larry, pictures. 16 Q Pictures are worth gold. 17 A Pictures are worth a ton of gold. Worth a ton of 18 gold. 19 Q Now, was that the second time you had seen John 20 Huang or had you seen him more than one other time? You 21 testified the first time, on July 9th, you saw him when you 22 went over to the White House so you could try to get 23 Taiwanese put on your passport, right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q You testified that -- 51 1 A That's one time. 2 Q -- that you didn't feel that close to him because 3 he's native Chinese and you're Taiwanese. 4 A Yes. 5 Q You didn't think he had any business being there. 6 A You asked me the question, am I Houka. I tried to 7 ask my father, he said maybe our ancestors but you are not. 8 Q Well, I meant that positively. Houkas are very 9 hard working people. 10 A Yes. Yes. But I think maybe ten generation before 11 me is Houka. I don't know. I am not. 12 Q Okay. 13 A That's a good question. I asked my father. 14 Q Okay. But had you ever talked to Huang before you 15 had contact over getting in to meet Ron Brown, between the 16 time you saw him at the White House to have your passport and 17 other people's passports changed to country of origin Taiwan, 18 as opposed to China, had you talked to him between that time 19 and the time you talked to him about getting you and the 20 delegation in to see Ron Brown? 21 A I don't remember I had contacted him about that, 22 but it could be. The end of '95, I had one phone call asked 23 me to join them -- I'm sorry, correction. Summertime of '95, 24 I had one phone call from John Huang asking me to join them 25 for the fundraising party, but I always talked to my former 52 1 general manager. 2 I don't like to go to the group -- a big group of 3 Asian-American together because with my experience it will 4 always create a lot of trouble, so I don't even bother to 5 make a phone call, to answer the phone call, or to call him 6 back. Which I have made a right decision, up to today, I 7 still save my own skin, I don't get involved too much. 8 Q In fact, you had a number of telephone 9 conversations with Mr. Huang between the time that you first 10 met him at the White House over the passport matter and the 11 time that you talked to him about getting the delegation and 12 yourself in to see the President. 13 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 14 Argumentative. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. He can correct it if 16 he wishes. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct? 18 THE WITNESS: Answer? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 20 MR. SUN: And objection as to the term number of 21 times. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I can show the telephone records, 23 Your Honor. We have them. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm making it easy, to move it along. 53 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Madam Reporter, would you please 2 read back the last question? 3 (The record was read back by the court reporter.) 4 THE WITNESS: Maybe I did, one phone call, maybe I 5 don't. I don't remember. That's the best answer I have. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Who contacted who? 8 A I think -- I think it is John Huang contacted my 9 office and normally I don't answer the phone calls and then 10 my general manager tell me -- I only remember he called me 11 and left a message. 12 Q And he called you, trying to refresh your 13 recollection -- 14 A Okay. Please. 15 Q To solicit political contributions. 16 A Join them to the fundraising party. That's the 17 word I want to use, join them to the fundraising party. 18 Q And he called you during the day, because you were 19 at work. 20 A I did not answer the phone. I did not know when he 21 called me, but obviously my former general manager, told me 22 that in the daytime. 23 Q And at the time he called you, you knew he was 24 working for the Commerce Department. 25 A That's correct. 54 1 Q And did you decide to give Mr. Huang -- did you 2 decide to give him what he asked for? 3 A No. 4 Q The solicitation for the money? 5 A No. The answer to this I want to say it again is 6 join me to the fundraising party, join them, okay? Them. 7 That mean Asian American. And then I said to you I don't 8 want to be there with that group of people. I know how it 9 happens, chaos. 10 Q Why didn't you want to be there? You said you 11 don't want to be there with a group of people. Why? 12 A Well, it kind of -- sometimes it will be kind of 13 marketplace. Larry, have you been Chinese restaurant? 14 Q Sure. 15 A Very noisy. Very noisy. 16 Q So you wanted individual attention, right? You 17 didn't want to be there with a lot of other people. 18 A Exactly. 19 Q For the money you were giving, you wanted 20 individual attention, right? 21 A That's correct. That's what I pay for. 22 Q Now, when you had this discussion with Mr. Huang 23 when he came over to the J.W. Marriott, he said he had come 24 on behalf of Ron Brown to give you the message, correct? 25 MR. SUN: Objection. 55 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 MR. SUN: No foundation. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: No. No. That is not the words. 6 That is the situation, I asked him to come over and explain 7 to this group of people. They are my guests. And then one 8 of the wish list, I wished them to do it and I asked John 9 Huang to explain to them why is not appropriate time for Ron 10 Brown to meet them. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But you understood -- 13 A I asked. 14 Q Okay. At that time, you understood that John 15 Huang, working at the Commerce Department, was in a position 16 to speak for Ron Brown. That's why you asked him to come 17 over. 18 MR. SUN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 19 Argumentative. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: I think he worked in Department of 22 Commerce and someone with that position to explain would be 23 appropriate to save my face. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q But you knew -- the question was that John Huang by 56 1 virtue of his position at the Commerce Department could come 2 over and speak on behalf of Ron Brown on this matter. 3 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: That's why you contacted him. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Speculative. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 7 MR. SUN: I join, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I did not say that. Because I 10 asked him to come over on behalf of me to save my own face, 11 to talk to those people, that is the purpose I asked him to 12 come over. I can't say that. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Let me back up a little bit. You know that John 15 Huang had a high position at the Commerce Department, 16 correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q You knew that he worked with Ron Brown. 19 A That's correct. 20 Q You knew that John Huang was involved in issues 21 involving international trade. 22 A That I understand, yes. 23 Q And you knew he was involved in matters concerning 24 international trade in China at the Commerce Department. 25 A That I don't know at that time. 57 1 Q You found that out later. 2 A Later, after the campaign finance scandal. 3 Q Yes. 4 A Yes. Then, I don't know, okay? But I do know -- 5 Q But you thought he was in a position to be able to 6 relay information to this delegation that Ron Brown was not 7 available. 8 MR. SUN: Objection. Calls for speculation. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, can I say fifty-fifty? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If that's your best answer. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Okay. What do you mean by fifty-fifty? 15 A He come over under my request and he's also 16 Asian-American. And then I met him once or twice and this is 17 what I call an important delegation, VIP, and for me it's 18 easier to ask him as Asian-American to Asian-American, would 19 you please do me a favor for this. And why I want to do 20 that, because I also -- the other 50 percent, he working for 21 Department of Commerce, so, yes, what he said is more 22 powerful than anybody in the street or any department 23 official. That's why I said fifty-fifty. 24 Q You wouldn't have called someone over to say 25 something to this Chinese delegation that wasn't true, 58 1 correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q You didn't intend to lie to them, just to have 4 anybody come in and give them nonsense, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q So you believed that Huang could speak for Brown, 7 correct? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 10 MR. SUN: Same objection, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: I believed he is a Department of 13 Commerce official and when he explained to them it was more 14 powerful than the people in the different department or 15 people in the street. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q But you also believed that he would have the 18 authority to talk to the delegation, he being Huang. 19 MR. SUN: Objection. Asked and answered. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: Again, I want to repeat my answer. 22 I think that he got the power to explain to those people 23 better than other department official. And also can save my 24 face. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: So the answer is yes. 59 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The answer is the answer. 3 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it sounds like yes to me. 5 MR. SUN: Your Honor -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That is what he said. 7 MS. BRASWELL: I didn't hear a yes in it. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please, don't quibble. Let's go 9 on. Move on, please. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: There's one thing I don't understand 11 here, Your Honor, just for the record, okay? We seem to be 12 having an advocate's role being played by these counsel here, 13 okay? I just want to get the facts out. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, they're lawyers. 15 MS. BRASWELL: What a novel idea. 16 MR. SUN: I'll take that as a compliment, 17 Your Honor. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Given the nature of this case, we 19 should get the information out. I don't understand why 20 they're taking an advocate's role in this issue, just let him 21 answer. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What can you do? I mean, bears 23 sleep in the woods, lawyers make objections. It just comes 24 with the territory. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I know objections, but I just want to 60 1 get the truth out. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I think he's willing to give the full 4 truth. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think he's very refreshingly 6 candid, frankly. 7 THE WITNESS: Always. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You understood when Mr. Huang came over to speak to 10 the delegation that he was a Democratic fundraiser. 11 A No, I don't. No, I don't. At that time, I don't. 12 Q You did later. 13 A Yes. 14 Q At what point later did you understand that? 15 A When he called my office for that join them to the 16 fundraising party. 17 Q Then you knew what he really was. 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: After what incident happened to me, 21 inside the White House with that radio address, I became to 22 know a little bit more better in this time. And I begin to 23 understand a little more clearly. But during that time, at 24 that meeting at the J.W. Marriott, I don't know he is a 25 fundraiser. 61 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yes, but, again, I'm going back to when it finally 3 hit you, that you knew that he really was a Democratic 4 fundraiser when he called you and solicited you for that 5 event. 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Now, there did come a point in time when you did 8 meet with Ron Brown eventually. You did meet him in China, 9 right? 10 A I counted three times. Not in China, three times, 11 in China one time. 12 Q You met him during the trade mission in '94. 13 A Yes. And in 1992 when then governor Bill 14 Clinton -- November 20, 1992. I was doing my fax broadcast 15 business promotion in Little Rock, Arkansas and he come to 16 the hotel, Excelsior, I think the name is. I have a picture 17 taken with him. 18 And the third time is somewhere in Washington, 19 D.C., I believe it's a fundraising party. Fundraising party. 20 I don't remember which one or where is it. I have two 21 pictures, so I remember that. 22 Q Was that in '94 or '95? 23 A Could be '94. Your Honor, I say could be. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 25 THE WITNESS: At the 48 years old birthday. My 62 1 very first time political contribution. I don't have the 2 pictures. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What you talked about last time. 5 A Yes. We talked about that. 6 Q The President's forty-eighth birthday. 7 A That's correct. But I don't have the pictures, so 8 I don't remember. But three times. 9 Q And you may have met him at that time. 10 A Which time? 11 Q The forty-eighth birthday party. 12 A Okay. 13 Q You introduced yourself. 14 A Yes. And also I introduced my friends, they're all 15 Asian-Americans. 16 Q Who was that? 17 A I told you that last time already. The same group 18 of people we went to the passport issue. 19 Q And did you tell Ron Brown I'd like to go on one of 20 your trade missions at that time? 21 A No. No. I don't even know there's a trade mission 22 yet. 23 Q That you found out later from Jude Kearney. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Now, you testified that -- this is the other 63 1 information that hasn't come out yet, that there's 2 information about Hazel O'Leary. Tell us about that. 3 MR. SUN: Same objection, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: Again, I went back to DNC and asked 6 with my point of contact, Mr. Richard Sullivan, I have the 7 group of people from China which they call SINOPEC, China oil 8 company, they want to meet with the secretary, Hazel O'Leary. 9 And at the third floor of the DNC by the elevator, there's 10 two person introduced me, one is -- two person introduced me 11 to Mr. Wilson Golden. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Wilson Golden? 14 A Yes. 15 Q How is that spelled? 16 A Wilson Golden. 17 Q All right. Golden. Okay. 18 A And that two person, one is Carol Khare, one is 19 Richard Sullivan, and asked me to say hi to this gentleman 20 and he is also very active in the DNC. That's what they said 21 to me. And at that time, I already talked to both of them, 22 which is Carol Khare and Richard Sullivan, I would like to 23 set up a meeting for this delegation meeting with then 24 Secretary Hazel O'Leary and also hope we get a chance to meet 25 with the President. 64 1 They set it up for me to meet with this gentleman 2 which is by accident, but later on I find it out maybe could 3 not be the accident, it was in the timing. And then this 4 gentleman immediately invite -- Wilson Golden immediately 5 invite me to have lunch at the Navy-Army Club right here at 6 Washington, D.C. 7 And the whole entire afternoon with that lunch I 8 was not really concentrating with that kind of lunch because 9 I really wanted to get my wish list to be granted again. And 10 then I said what I really want and he begin to tell me he 11 know somebody in the Department of Energy. The lady he 12 called and set up a meeting for me is -- what is the name 13 again -- I have to think a little bit. I can't give you -- 14 again, it's under my interview with Tom Brokaw, it's there. 15 She is the director of some department of the Department of 16 Energy. 17 I called her up and set up the meeting. I went 18 into the office, I told them what I wanted and she said to 19 me, the best recollection I can give -- 20 Q The woman's name is Corlis Moody. 21 A Corlis Moody. Thank you to remind me. And then I 22 went into the room and then talked to tell her what is my 23 wish list. And she said to me we are going to have an 24 Africare party which the President is going to be there and 25 Secretary of Energy she also will be there. It will be nice 65 1 if you can contribute to it. 2 And I said how much it will be and I remember she 3 said $25,000 for the table. And I knew if I pay for it then 4 I will be granted my wish list again. I said, yes, I will. 5 And then the following the next day or two, I been 6 talking to -- 7 Q Let me stop you there. When you talked to Corlis 8 Moody, she said she was relaying this message from Hazel 9 O'Leary. 10 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: No. Not at that time. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But later she said that? 15 A Not even later at that time because I found it out. 16 Q You found it out yourself? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How did you find that out yourself? 19 A You want to go one, two, three? 20 Q All right. Let's go one, two, three. You'll tell 21 us later. 22 A Otherwise, it will confuse. 23 Q Okay. Go ahead. 24 A And then I been working very hard with the lady, 25 Corlis Moody, Ms. Moody, and asking her to write an 66 1 invitation to invite this group of people. They are over 2 there in Dallas or Houston. They have the corporate jet 3 provided by American oil company, they treat them VIP, they 4 are on their way from Texas to Chicago. 5 If I can set up the meeting with the invitation 6 they will fly with the corporate jet directly from Texas to 7 Washington, D.C. and later on go to Chicago. But in order 8 for them to have that, they want make sure I have invitation 9 from Secretary Hazel O'Leary. 10 So Ms. Moody and I were working over the phone 11 late. I really need it that night and she faxed over to me 12 the version. I asked her that is not a good version, you 13 should say something clearly. And then she faxed to me 14 another copy which is without a signature. She said to me 15 Secretary Hazel O'Leary already went home, the best thing we 16 can do is the next morning when she can she will ask her to 17 sign it and then will fax over to me. The timing is 18 different, so that still give me one extra hour between 19 Washington, D.C. and Texas. I say okay. 20 The next morning, the invitation arrive at my fax 21 machine. Then I immediately fax over to them and ask the 22 group in Texas to come over. And also she said to me there 23 is a gentleman from Department of Energy is coming to pick up 24 the check for $25,000 for Africare. And the gentleman came 25 into my apartment, knock on the door and coming in. I hand 67 1 it over to him, the $25,000 check and he looked at my fax 2 machine and that was the latest, they sent it to me fax. 3 He said to me I had to take those letter back. I 4 said why? He say the general counsel of Department of Energy 5 said that is not the way should write it. It's really 6 appropriate or legal to write it. 7 I said fine, take it, I just wanted to make sure 8 the meeting is granted and we will be there. And he 9 retrieved all of the letters. That's why I do not have a 10 copy. 11 Q The faxes which you received from the Department of 12 Energy came from the Department of Energy, off of their fax 13 machine? 14 A Say that again, your question? 15 Q The faxes that you got -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q -- that he took back were sent from the Department 18 of Energy. 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And the faxes contained the signature of Hazel 21 O'Leary. 22 A The next day. Yes. The one is without and the 23 second one is with. 24 Q And he took back the one without the signature and 25 the one with her signature. 68 1 A That's correct. 2 Q And he told you the general counsel told him to do 3 this. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And -- 6 A Not general counsel. He said the general counsel 7 said it's not appropriate or legal to write such kind of 8 letter and they had to take it back. 9 Q And who was this man? 10 A This is -- I never know the name, I don't remember, 11 but FBI provided me six pictures of African-American. I give 12 them a description. I think I positively identified him, but 13 I still did not know the name. They showed me six pictures, 14 a photo line up. 15 Q Did you know the name at the time? 16 A I don't know. Up to today, I still don't know. 17 Q But you knew that he worked with Hazel O'Leary. 18 A She said to me and he said to me when he come to 19 pick it up, I work at the Department of Energy. 20 Q And you knew that he worked in Secretary O'Leary's 21 office. 22 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't know, but I did see him 69 1 talking to Ms. Moody at Ms. Moody's office. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And what was Ms. Moody's position? 4 A Director of some -- I have her business card, but I 5 don't know. Director at Department of Energy. 6 Q And you knew she worked with Hazel O'Leary. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q And -- 9 A Can I say that she worked for Hazel O'Leary 10 closely, I can feel that. 11 Q You can feel that. 12 A Yes. 13 Q And do you know who the general counsel of the 14 Department of Energy was at the time? 15 A I don't care. 16 Q This whole sequence of events occurred when in 17 time? Approximately. 18 A My memory isn't good, only the time -- the time and 19 the person's name is not good, so if you would help me on the 20 news account. 21 Q Ms. Moody worked as the Director of Economic Impact 22 and Diversity. 23 A That's correct. That's correct. If you would help 24 me on the -- should be on the -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what has already been 70 1 marked as an exhibit. I'll get you the number. It's the 2 article "Johnny Chung's Tale of Cash and Access." Exhibit 3 10. And ask you if this helps you remember the date. Turn 4 to page 5 of 7. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Could I see what everyone's looking 6 at? 7 MR. FITTON: It's a copy of the exhibit. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Where is the -- 9 MR. FITTON: It's Exhibit 10. It's in the back, 10 Your Honor. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Look at page 5, where it says October 12 17th. 13 THE WITNESS: October -- page 5? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. I'm only showing you this -- 15 page 5 -- 16 MS. BRASWELL: Page -- are we looking here or here? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Page 5. 18 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Of what year? 21 A 1995. 22 Q 1995. Now, you ultimately gave the money -- you 23 presented the $25,000 to Africare, correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q The check was made out to Africare, correct? 71 1 A That's correct. 2 Q The check was cashed, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You never got the money back. 5 A Never. 6 Q Okay. And you had a wish list that you wanted for 7 that $25,000, correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Okay. And what was on that wish list? 10 A One is the meeting with the Secretary of Energy, 11 Hazel O'Leary. And then the meeting with the President of 12 the United States to get a photo op. And the third one, I 13 don't really call wish list because we just wanted to have a 14 very short tour. I already got it, which is I don't need to 15 put it on the wish list for that. I asked George 16 Stephanopolous to help me. 17 Q What did you ask him to do? 18 A I was passing by inside the White House and I said 19 this is a group of people -- 20 Q You said what? 21 A I said this is a group of business people and I 22 want to show them around inside the White House, would you 23 help me and he said yes. And he greeted them in the driveway 24 of the White House. 25 Q You had known George Stephanopolous before that? 72 1 A Yes. 2 Q How did you meet him? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 4 this continued line of questioning, none of which seems to 5 relate to the Department of Commerce. It hasn't even been 6 mentioned -- 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Where are we going with 8 this? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a course of conduct, Your Honor, 10 and we do have -- 11 MS. BRASWELL: That's pretty vague. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, the course of what conduct? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's the same kind of conduct that's 14 been going on, selling off of government services for 15 campaign contributions. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, that has nothing to do 17 with the Department of Commerce. This case is not about the 18 entire campaign finance issue. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: But it's about people that played a 20 role in that and this obviously bears on their general 21 conduct, Your Honor. I just have -- 22 MS. BRASWELL: It must be related to the Department 23 of Commerce and documents to have any relation to this case 24 whatsoever. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not true. 73 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. I'm going to give you just 2 a very brief bit of latitude, Mr. Klayman. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Close up this inquiry and move on 5 to something else. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Thank you. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Where had you met Mr. Stephanopolous before? 9 A One time when I was in Indonesia, okay? Which is 10 the only time I was there, it was APEC. Again, it was 11 American businessmen came there. And he speak to the 12 American businessmen. And the second time was one of the 13 fundraisers at home, in Los Angeles, that's why I took one 14 picture with him. 15 Q And when you were at the APEC meeting in Indonesia, 16 that was -- Ron Brown was there, too, right? He was there. 17 A I don't know, but I know the President was there. 18 Q President Clinton? 19 A Yes. President Clinton. Yes. 20 Q And John Huang was there, right? 21 A I didn't know. I didn't know. Again, I am 22 individual to go there, to see it. I don't know. 23 Q You knew that a family called the Riady family was 24 from Indonesia at that time, correct? 25 MR. SUN: Objection. 74 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 MR. SUN: No foundation. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Since you already my question -- 6 A I already answered. No. I knew their name in 7 1997. 8 Q Now, did you get your meeting with the President? 9 A I don't really care at that time because I wanted 10 no business opportunity or anything there. 11 MR. SUN: Are you referring to the Hazel O'Leary -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: The wish list. The wish list. 13 MR. SUN: He's referring to the Hazel O'Leary 14 matter. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: I thought we were still talking about 17 Indonesia. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we're talking about the President 19 now and your wish list. We're back to the wish list. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Probably a three-minutes 21 meeting. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q A three what meeting? 24 A Three minutes. 25 Q Three minutes. Okay. When was that? 75 1 A Again, very confused. Seems to be I talked to 2 Ms. Moody, that was I give you $25,000, how come I cannot get 3 a meeting with the President? And then I have to trudge 4 myself all the way through the line of people and I said to 5 the person -- and I also asked Wilson Golden, remember that 6 gentleman -- that he helped me out, I said, hey, I give you 7 guy $25,000, how come I don't get a chance to have a private 8 meeting, just even a couple of minute photo op? And then 9 this is not appropriate with 1000 people over here taking a 10 picture like that, it is not appropriate. 11 And if it wasn't Golden's help or it was myself to 12 go all the way, and I believe I also talked to one of the DNC 13 employee, African-American, I don't remember the name, but I 14 see him -- I remember seeing him also from Arkansas, I 15 believe, and then later on when I see -- when I am face to 16 face with the President, I say I have a group of people, 17 Mr. President, I would like you to meet with them. He say, 18 yes, okay, bring over to the back stage. 19 And then we was escort by -- I don't remember the 20 name, the gentleman who was very close with the President, 21 always carry a suitcase, Goodin? Mr. Goodin or something 22 like that. Young man. And then we were escorted to him and 23 then a handshake and this gentleman from -- the president of 24 SINOPEC explained to the President why he is here, he was 25 invited by major oil company, and they want to do business 76 1 with an American oil company and that it is a pleasure to 2 meet with him and taking the pictures. 3 And we never get the pictures. Handshake and they 4 provided the gentlemen with their own translator. He got his 5 professional official to translate. I don't pay too much 6 attention to that. 7 I remember what the President say to the gentlemen. 8 I also remember, I said, Mr. President, this is the gentleman 9 who helped to rescue Harry Wu back there in China. And he 10 said thank you and he said Johnny is a good friend, Johnny 11 did a lot. 12 And then really what they want is a handshake and 13 take pictures and that was it. I tried to ask for the 14 pictures so many time, I never get them. 15 Q Is there anything else? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you have any other meetings with the President 18 for that $25,000? 19 A No. 20 Q Was the African-American that you've referred to, 21 is his name Ernie Green from the DNC? 22 A No. 23 Q The people that were with you when you met the 24 President, when the President said Johnny's a good friend, 25 they were from China? 77 1 A Yes. Those were only the president of SINOPEC and 2 professional translator and me and the President, surrounded 3 by the Secret Service. 4 Q And did the President say anything directly to the 5 SINOPEC people? 6 A Can I have your question one more time? 7 MR. SUN: Objection. Asked and answered. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q What did the President say to the SINOPEC people? 11 A I don't remember. The only thing I know is he went 12 to walk away as soon as he can. He just listened and said 13 thank you and then he went to walk away as soon as he can. 14 He had tea or coffee in his hand. 15 Q Now, is there anything else about this Hazel 16 O'Leary story that hasn't come out yet that you haven't had a 17 chance to tell us yet? 18 A Yes. Referring to the first question you asked me, 19 I say one, two, three. 20 Q Right. 21 A This is number three. After the meeting with the 22 President and then everybody getting to the room, sit down, 23 and then my table is pretty much empty because of this group 24 of people already had meeting with Hazel O'Leary, already 25 have meeting with the President, very short, 30-minute tour 78 1 in the White House, they had to go all the way back to D.C. 2 airport to get into their corporate jet headed to Chicago. 3 They have a final meeting the same day with chairman and CEO 4 of the major oil company. 5 So for $25,000 I pay, the table is empty and then 6 very close to the stage, so Mr. Wilson Golden take advantage 7 and invite a few friends to join me with the empty table. 8 And at that time, there are all Secret Service with the ten 9 or twelve, the president of every country is there, there is 10 no way you can get closer to the President during that time 11 or even Secretary Hazel O'Leary. She came down to me. She 12 said that was nice meeting, right? Thank you, Johnny. 13 Q Hazel O'Leary said that? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And you took that to mean that I arranged that 16 meeting for you. 17 A That I -- say your question one more time. 18 Q You took that to mean that Hazel O'Leary was saying 19 that I arranged that meeting for you and thank you for the 20 $25,000. 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Now, have you now told us everything about the 23 Hazel O'Leary story? There's a little more, isn't there? 24 A That was it. 25 Q That's it? Okay. Now, have you been asked to 79 1 provide any testimony to an independent counsel concerning 2 Hazel O'LEary? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You next said the things that you hadn't talked 7 about before that no one knows yet are about two groups of 8 people that are after you. Who are those two groups of 9 people? 10 MR. SUN: Objection. Relevance, Your Honor. I 11 don't know -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, it might bear on the 13 potential bias of the witness, so I'll allow a brief inquiry. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it also bears on potential 15 witness tampering, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's what I meant. Let's go. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. The ultimate bias. 18 Please answer. 19 MR. SUN: Answer the question. 20 THE WITNESS: During my whole family under 21 government protection, 24 hours a day, the tension is very 22 high, not easy for my children. I want to know why we've 23 been removed from my house. I asked the question, I got the 24 answer from the FBI. 25 There is four people from China that have no 80 1 business here during that time they came. The moment they 2 leave China, Beijing airport, has been monitored by the FBI. 3 They been following these four gentlemen, Los Angeles, Las 4 Vegas, Honolulu, Hawaii, back to Tokyo, Japan. When they see 5 them leave the plane from Tokyo headed to China, they let me 6 know. All the incident. 7 The second group they know that is two gentlemen 8 and one lady. They stopped them at the airport, the Los 9 Angeles International Airport. What they said to me, they 10 send them back on the same airplane. 11 And the third one I just said to you is I am a 12 witness for the ongoing investigation, that Asian-American 13 lady. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll get to that. 15 THE WITNESS: And the fourth one is the 16 Italian-American. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Now, these people that were -- that you discussed, 19 the two groups you've just discussed, they were from China. 20 A My best knowledge from the FBI. 21 Q What, if anything, were you told as to why they 22 were sent to the United States? 23 A FBI have the -- okay. I want to make it official. 24 They treat me very nice. This is the group I trust them, I 25 believe them, they put their life, their put their neck on 81 1 the line for my family and I respect them a lot. They are 2 the group of people with the integrity. No doubt about it. 3 But during the period of time they been ordered 4 only listen to me and don't talk to me. Larry, 24 hours, 5 seven days a week, one and a half hour under the sunshine, 6 not easy, so I don't talk to them. I talk to them a lot but 7 they don't respond anything at all to me. 8 Q Do you have any understanding as to why these two 9 groups of people were sent by China to come after you? 10 A Those people who I spoke to, later on I demand to 11 know why, finally the leader of the group told me that we 12 don't know why, but they definitely come here after you. 13 Q Did he tell you that they came to kill you? 14 A They didn't use to kill me, but I can see the 15 attitude is to harm me and my family. 16 Q Physically. 17 A Yes. Because I see during that period of time, my 18 eyes moving, FBI is not only carry the handgun, they also 19 carry the machine gun. 20 Q Do you have any -- 21 A That means something to me. 22 Q Based on your considerable experience that you 23 acquired in dealing with China, having had contact with 24 General Ji, with Colonel Liu, with others, did you believe 25 that these people were being sent -- 82 1 A To kill me. 2 Q -- by Chinese intelligence to kill you. 3 A That's correct. I'm the only one tell the truth. 4 Q Have you ever asked yourself, has it ever hit you, 5 that maybe Ron Brown was killed, too? 6 A Your Honor -- 7 MR. SUN: You can answer the question. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Answer the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I cried during the airplane accident. 10 I cried the whole week because he is someone who I know. And 11 then with the funeral service, it was to really honor a 12 person who has served the country. 13 And I even talked to my wife, if I am killed 14 because I come out and tell the whole truth, that's fine 15 because I know I am going to meet the God face to face, I 16 tell the truth. 17 MR. SUN: He's asking you if you thought Mr. Brown 18 was killed by somebody. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: He can give the answer, how he gets 20 to it. He's trying to be honest with us. 21 Go on. 22 THE WITNESS: That is a reason, if I have been 23 killed, to tell the whole truth. That's it. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q The question was when you learned of the death of 83 1 Ron Brown, did you think that maybe China had sent somebody 2 to kill him, too? 3 A No. No. Not in my mind that way. 4 Q Have you since changed your view of that, that 5 perhaps that was a possibility? 6 A I sense there is a possibility he know too many 7 things, so something happened to him, but I don't know what 8 it is. What happened to me, it changed me. I try to give 9 you the best answer I can. 10 Q Now, do you currently feel threatened? 11 A Always. 12 Q The last time you were here, you had a friend with 13 you, correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q That friend was from the FBI, correct? 16 A No. That's my church friend. 17 Q Are you currently getting protection from the FBI? 18 A I don't. 19 Q Have you asked for it? 20 A May 20, 1999, when I have the Italian-American 21 come to my office with that kind of situation and then I 22 asked one of the FBI who have been protecting me all the 23 time, and I asked the lady to come to my office, I say I 24 don't want to go to my parking lot by myself, I got that kind 25 of phone call. 84 1 She came and then five minutes after she came we 2 got a phone call and the gentleman pounding the door like a 3 crazy, walk into the next door of my office, and ask if this 4 office people in and out, and then the lady from the FBI 5 asked me don't answer the door and she is already ready to 6 pull out her gun. 7 Later on, we asked the neighbor and my neighbor 8 said he asked in this company a lot of people in and out? 9 And my neighbor says he is a muscle, the kind of muscle guy 10 with Italian accent. And walked so quickly and they can see 11 something behind the back is a weapon. 12 And then quickly the lady FBI copied down the 13 driver license and go follow them and that night they don't 14 allow me to go home and ask me to take my wife and my 15 children away from my house for few days. 16 And after that, I called the FBI and then they been 17 signed off. They been signed off. All of them been signed 18 off. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just stop you here. He needs 20 to change tape. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off record at 22 approximately 12:18. 23 (A brief recess was taken.) 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're rejoining video record, 25 beginning video cassette number 2 of volume 2, at 85 1 approximately 12:19 p.m. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you just read the last sentence 3 back? 4 (The record was read back by the court reporter.) 5 THE WITNESS: I want to respond -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Finish what you were saying. 7 THE WITNESS: After that fight dirty in the Friday 8 afternoon -- I'm sorry, 5:45, 5:40 in the afternoon on 9 Friday, when the FBI copied the driver license and lady FBI 10 asked me directly to go to the hotel and then she promised 11 she will pick up my wife and my two minor child. My oldest 12 daughter is in school, so we are not worried about her. 13 Then we been settled down over there and how many 14 day we don't know, but they don't want me to go back to my 15 house, but the next morning, of course, immediately I call my 16 attorney and then next day in the afternoon the lady FBI told 17 me that the whole entire group has been signed off on my 18 case. Signed off my case. 19 And then until Monday, Sunday, that Sunday, I went 20 back to my church, I wanted to go back to the church, and my 21 church we have 1200 member where the FBI agent is a member, 22 judge is a member and also the policemen is a member and they 23 all know my case, situation, they came to my hotel and picked 24 us up and go to the Sunday service. 25 Originally was provided -- they say they will 86 1 provide the FBI escort protection to go back to my church, 2 but they didn't come, and they been signed off. And later on 3 I call United States Attorney's office in Los Angeles and I 4 call the FBI and I ask them and they said, Mr. Chung, your 5 case is over. If anything happen to you as a normal 6 businessman, what do you do? You just call 911. 7 I said what? And he said you just call 911. 8 I said to my sentencing judge when I met with my 9 judge, I said to my judge about this. And then indeed all of 10 the people who were involved in my case is signed off. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q So you felt abandoned. 13 A Very much. 14 Q These threats that occurred to you, the Italian 15 person who came to your office and the other matters you've 16 just related, occurred after your last deposition to Judicial 17 Watch. 18 A No, before. May 20. 19 Q Did the Italian man come after July 9th? 20 A No, May 20. 21 MR. SUN: No, I believe it was March 20th. 22 THE WITNESS: March 20th. I'm sorry. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You said July 9th. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Have you been threatened after your last deposition 87 1 to Judicial Watch? 2 A No. 3 Q Would you like Judicial Watch to ask Judge Lamberth 4 and Judge Facciola in this court to get you some protection? 5 Government protection? 6 A Would you allow me to think about it and if I need 7 it, I will ask you? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, it seems to me that's 9 more appropriate for his attorney, if his attorney feels that 10 this is necessary. I don't believe that Judicial Watch is 11 representing Mr. Chung. 12 MR. SUN: Your Honor, maybe I can respond in this 13 fashion. We appreciate Mr. Klayman's offer. We will take 14 it under consideration and advise both Mr. Klayman and the 15 Court of Mr. Chung's decision in this regard. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me answer that remark that 17 it's none of our business. He is a material witness and he 18 is a human being and we don't want anything to happen to him, 19 so it's my business. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll certainly await Mr. Sun's 21 call. 22 MR. SUN: And, Mr. Klayman, just so I might say for 23 the record, I am his lawyer, I've been with him now for some 24 period of time and you're not the only person that's 25 concerned about Mr. Chung's future and welfare and we 88 1 appreciate your comments for the record and we will get back 2 to you and the Court in response to your offer. 3 I think I can say for the record that those of us 4 who have been with Mr. Chung for a while now, including 5 federal law enforcement, would very likely act in his 6 interests if we felt it necessary to do so. But we 7 appreciate your offer and we will respond in due course. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I understand your position. 9 However, just for the record, there may be some conflicting 10 interests here and that's why we will be moving the Court -- 11 MR. SUN: What type of conflicting interests, 12 Mr. Klayman? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: -- for some protection. 14 MR. SUN: What type of conflicting interests? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll leave it now and I'll put it in 16 the brief. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. We've exhausted that 18 topic. 19 It is now 12:25. Mr. Klayman -- 20 MR. SUN: I think you're seeing things that aren't 21 there, Mr. Klayman. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right, Mr. Sun. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: That was not meant towards you. That 24 was not meant towards you, Mr. Sun. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Counsel. Counsel. 89 1 It's now 12:25. What are your plans? How much 2 longer do we have, Mr. Klayman? We've got to let these 3 people get some lunch. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. I mean, I think we need to take 5 some lunch, we can shorten it, obviously. We do have a ways 6 to go. We are going to get into some of the things that have 7 just come out because some of the things that have recently 8 been reported deal with trade missions to China, with Loral 9 and Hughes, on those trips. And what we got right now, of 10 course, we didn't expect to get, this was all this new 11 information, so we do have several hours to go here, 12 Your Honor. 13 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I would state for the record 14 that at the last deposition Mr. Klayman indicated on the 15 record that he thought he had a couple more hours. I see 16 this to be a fishing expedition. I would ask the Court to 17 have the questioning directed and focused on Commerce 18 Department-related matters. 19 I have taken the position from the onset of this 20 deposition that I have no problem with Mr. Chung answering 21 questions that are related to those matters that I believe 22 are the subject of this litigation. 23 To go into all these other matters involving his 24 connection to campaign finance will be, I think, not relevant 25 to the litigation and really constitute harassment of 90 1 Mr. Chung and I'd like to just focus on what is relevant to 2 the litigation at hand. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let me ask you this -- 4 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, may I be heard on this 5 as well? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, if I can respond to this first, 9 if can. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Go ahead. And then 11 I'll hear from Ms. Braswell. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going right into now back into 13 the trade missions. I'm going into Loral and Hughes. I'm 14 going into this whole course of conduct. What we got this 15 morning was unexpected and it was extremely relevant. 16 Your Honor has made rulings. 17 Last but not least, notwithstanding anything else, 18 we have expended a lot of resources to be here, in excess of 19 $4200 just in money, and the plane reservations that were 20 made allow them to leave this evening within a sufficient 21 time that we can finish. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: And we've paid $1900 for coach fare 24 for each. 25 MR. SUN: Your Honor, whatever the cost is, and we 91 1 would have been happy to fly on a discount fare -- 2 THE WITNESS: I tried to do my best. 3 MR. SUN: -- if there had been one available, but 4 that's something Mr. Klayman can talk to the airlines about 5 and maybe bring a suit there where I think maybe one is 6 appropriate. But I just want to just have Mr. Klayman focus 7 on things at hand. 8 He mentions Loral and Hughes. That has nothing 9 to do with Mr. Chung's case, much less with the Department of 10 Commerce at least as it relates to Mr. Chung. So -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: They were on the trade mission. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We don't really have to -- we're 13 going to have to take it up question by question. There's no 14 other way to do it. 15 Ms. Braswell? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Well, Your Honor, I'd like to point 17 out that Mr. Chung has now been deposed for seven hours, if 18 you include the last deposition, and in seven hours there has 19 been no evidence of any Department of Commerce documents, no 20 evidence regarding their creation, their destruction or their 21 removal from the department, which is in fact what Judge 22 Lamberth said the depositions were to be about. 23 I urge the Court to put a time limit on this 24 deposition because Mr. Klayman has a habit of rambling on. 25 This entire morning has produced no evidence of any documents 92 1 relating to the Department of Commerce; indeed, no evidence 2 of any motive on the part of any Department of Commerce 3 employee to destroy or do anything with documents. 4 Consequently, I urge the Court to simply put an end 5 to this deposition. Give him another hour, two hours, and 6 tell him that's it and he's got to focus his questions within 7 that period of time. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, in terms of that, 9 Mr. Klayman, would it be possible if we were to break down, 10 reassemble after lunch at 1:30 we could finish by 3:30? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd be willing to go through lunch. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we've got other people here. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know, Your Honor. I don't 14 know where it's going to lead. We're trying to be 15 deliberate, I'm trying not to rush. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Well, I'd like to see if we 17 could. I appreciate it if -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me also say this. To say there's 19 no evidence is just simply incorrect. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I appreciate your point. But 21 we're spending so much time on that -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I started this morning -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to rule on these 24 questions one by one and I don't really want to hear 25 argument. 93 1 MR. KLAYMAN: We know Your Honor is reasonable. 2 We'll leave it to your discretion. You'll see that where 3 we're going is highly relevant. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: How about this. If we came back, 5 can we make it back by 1:15 and see if we can finish by 3:30? 6 How is that? Make that as our goal? If we can reach it? 7 Let's try. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: We know you'll reasonable, 9 Your Honor. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's try that. 11 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I would even volunteer to 12 have us come back at 1:00, if we could. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's up to you. I don't care. 14 It's up to these folks. 15 Is that enough time? How much time do you need? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll come back at 1:00. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: At 1:00? Is everybody agreed? 18 We'll be back at one. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at approximately 20 12:30. 21 (Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., a luncheon recess was 22 taken.) 23 * * * * * 94 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:13 p.m.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are rejoining video record at 4 approximately 1:13 p.m. 5 Whereupon, 6 JOHNNY CHUNG 7 was recalled as a witness and, after having been previously 8 sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: 9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF (RESUMED) 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Mr. Chung, when we adjourned your deposition on 12 July 9th to continue it today ultimately, you were describing 13 to us -- 14 MS. BRASWELL: Today is July 9th. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: To continue it today. 16 MS. BRASWELL: You said when we adjourned it on 17 July 9th. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We did. We adjourned it on July 9th. 19 MS. BRASWELL: We adjourned it on May 13th. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. May 13th. 21 MR. SUN: Yes. You've done that a few times. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Yes. Any time I said 23 July 9th, I was talking about May 13th. 24 THE WITNESS: July 9th is my birthday. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it? 95 1 THE WITNESS: June 9th. I'm sorry. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Happy birthday. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's move on. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q When we adjourned your deposition the first time on 7 May 13th, you were telling us about the sequence of events 8 that happened when you went on the trade mission to China in 9 the fall and winter of 1994. And, correct me if I'm wrong, 10 you told us about how Jude Kearney had picked you up at the 11 airport in a Mercedes with a Chinese and American flag. 12 A That's correct. 13 Q How you went to a restaurant and you met Mrs. Trie 14 and how ultimately you would back up at the hotel in the 15 coffee shop and then ultimately you went to sleep that night, 16 you couldn't sleep well because you were still on American 17 time. 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Does that sound right? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I object to the 21 mischaracterization. In his deposition on page 98, Mr. Chung 22 said he paid his own way, so the reference that he went on 23 the trade mission is incorrect. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: What does that have to do with -- 25 MS. BRASWELL: It's a mischaracterization, which 96 1 he's done twice now. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's fine. It's noted for the 3 record. Please proceed. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, just for the record, I take 5 issue with Ms. Braswell -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Fine. We appreciate 7 that. Let's pose a question. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What happened on that trade mission after that, 10 after you went to sleep that first night? Tell us everything 11 that happened. 12 A A lot of things happen in my mind. This is a new 13 country I've never been. On the American time. Looking to 14 the street, the horse carriage carry the pig and with the 15 Mercedes-Benz on the side, what a city. 16 Q Okay. 17 A And I just couldn't get to sleep. And with the 18 education big one back in Taiwan, I always treated Communist 19 very uneasy. That way my education big one is. And I want 20 to know if there is any opportunity for my business in the 21 future. 22 I begin to -- the first night when I got there, I 23 cannot get sleep, I begin to be sick. I told you that. 24 Ultimately become very sick. And meeting with the people 25 which is Jude Kearney has been taking care of me, picking me 97 1 up in the airport and meeting with Mrs. Trie and the mayor of 2 Little Rock Arkansas -- 3 Q Who was that? Do you remember the name? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q Okay. He was mayor at the time? 6 A Mayor at the time. 7 Q Okay. We can figure it out. Go on. 8 A Yes. And that was first night to see the 9 restaurant with the karaoke bar combined. I never been to 10 such kind of place. 11 And then I know there's a few meeting I can attend 12 as I asked Jude Kearney which is open to the -- not public, 13 open to the American businessmen in Beijing, which is I am 14 American businessman, I can go in there without pay anything. 15 What kind of opportunity am I going to get? What kind of 16 people I am going to meet? This is the first time for me to 17 be there. That's what I thought. 18 Q And what meetings did you go to? 19 A I went -- not the meeting, I went two event. The 20 first event is the breakfast held by American government, 21 speaker is late Secretary Ron Brown, speak to the group of 22 American businessmen in Beijing. 23 And the second meeting is hosted by American 24 government to say thank you to Chinese government and it's 25 also welcome to the American businessmen in Beijing. 98 1 Q At the first meeting, what did Secretary Ron Brown 2 say to the group of American businessmen? 3 A I don't pay that much attention. I don't remember. 4 Q At the time of this meeting with Ron Brown, did you 5 think to yourself I'm finally getting my wish, I'm here with 6 Ron Brown? 7 MR. SUN: Objection. That -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 9 MR. SUN: -- misstates his prior testimony. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Vague. 11 MR. SUN: And -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Sustained. 13 Rephrase it, if you would, Mr. Klayman. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if we're going to do any 15 more objections, I'd like to get the witness out of the room. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. In the future -- just 17 rephrase the question. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you feel that when you were in there with Ron 21 Brown in that meeting you were finally getting your wish to 22 be there in a meeting with him? 23 A I feel good to be there. 24 Q So the answer is yes? 25 MR. SUN: Objection. 99 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The answer is I feel good. 3 THE WITNESS: I feel good to be there. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask Mr. Chung to leave for a 5 second? 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, that's all right. I think we 7 can go on. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I just want to address one issue 9 here. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What is the issue? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I would like to address it without 12 the witness in the room. Just real briefly. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Chung, step outside for just a 14 second. Just go right out there. We'll be with you a 15 minute. 16 (The witness was excused.) 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Mr. Klayman? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I perfectly understand the right to 19 object when a question is not phrased properly. The 20 objections I heard this morning, many of them were improper 21 objections because I'm allowed to ask leading questions. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay? I mean, in this case, we've 24 had rare opportunities to have people come in, as you said, 25 refreshingly candid. But what I don't understand is when 100 1 there's a speaking objection which the objection itself may 2 suggest that -- and this is no disrespect to Mr. Sun -- that 3 he is defending the Department of Commerce. I don't 4 understand that. 5 Because the objection, A, is objectionable and, B, 6 it looks to me as if I'm working against him on this when I 7 shouldn't be because if his only interest is to protect his 8 client, who has total immunity, he can't be touched on any 9 ground, then it doesn't serve the interests of justice to 10 have him defending the Department of Commerce. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think the only problem there was 12 that you asked him did you believe that you finally had 13 gotten your wish and he said, "I feel good," wasn't that an 14 answer to your question? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: But I still can follow up on that. 16 What was his state of mind. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And your follow-up was -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: What was his state of mind. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: "Yes," you said, rhetorically, but 20 he said, "I feel good again." So it's pretty clear that he 21 thought "I feel good" was the answer to your question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: When counsel jumps in like that, 23 obviously it causes a tension to the witness, it causes him 24 to tense up and not -- and think he's doing something wrong. 25 And that's why I say if a objection is legitimate, that's 101 1 fine, but not a speaking objection. 2 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm allowed to elicit that. 4 MS. BRASWELL: May we address this? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: And let me ask one last thing, is 6 that the interests of the Department of Justice here is to 7 make sure the information comes out correctly. 8 The interests of the Justice Department should in 9 fact be, and should have been at all times, to address what 10 we perceive to be some of the improper conduct that's 11 occurred. And they've never had an interest in doing that. 12 And all I'm asking for in this case is just to let the 13 information flow. Maybe some day the Justice Department will 14 have an interest in it. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, it's a perfectly 17 legitimate objection when Mr. Klayman mischaracterizes the 18 answer. That's the only reason for the objection. 19 If Mr. Klayman wants to waste his time in this 20 deposition carrying on about the Department of Justice, I 21 still urge the Court to terminate this deposition at an early 22 time. 23 MR. SUN: If I might, Your Honor, first as to the 24 specifics, when Mr. Klayman asked the question, "Did you get 25 your wish?" I said, "Objection. Misstates the evidence." 102 1 I didn't go into what I was sorely tempted, which 2 would be more of a speaking objection because I'm trying in 3 the interests of time to just state my objection and if the 4 Court wants more from me, I will state the grounds. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 6 MR. SUN: I felt that question was objectionable 7 because Mr. Klayman has asked about Mr. Chung's wish list at 8 different times during the course of this experience in 9 campaign finance. He was assuming that the purpose of the 10 trip to China was somehow -- one of his wishes was to see Ron 11 Brown. Well, that's not what's in the record. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Then let him say that, not you. 13 MR. SUN: He had wish lists at different times when 14 he brought different people for different functions. So that 15 was the basis for my objection. And if the Court had 16 inquired, asked me to elaborate, I would have said that. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Fine. 18 MR. SUN: But in the interests of time and as I 19 understand the ground rules of this deposition, Your Honor 20 wants me to just state the objection and then move on. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If you would. 22 MR. SUN: And I'd like to do that. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if we can get this 24 moving. 25 MR. SUN: But one final thing I have to respond to, 103 1 Your Honor, is the suggestion that somehow I'm an advocate 2 for the Department of Commerce. 3 Well, I can tell the Court that most of my 4 objections relate to the following: one, on relevance 5 grounds; secondly, I do believe from time to time, whether 6 it's intentional or not, Mr. Klayman does misstate or mislead 7 in the way in which he poses a question to my client about 8 what his answer was, so I feel compelled to speak up in that 9 regard. 10 And, finally, Your Honor, if Mr. Klayman would just 11 ask a proper question, I would keep my mouth shut, lay a 12 proper foundation and then I wouldn't make the objection. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, the question was -- in 14 fact, it wasn't stated correctly to Mr. Chung, did you feel 15 as if your wish had finally been grated. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: It wasn't was your wish finally 18 granted, did you feel that. And I'm entitled to ask that. 19 Given the fact that he's been pumping money into the DNC and 20 the White House. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Can we bring him back now? 22 (The witness returned.) 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead, Mr. Klayman. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Did you feel as if your wish had been granted when 104 1 you finally got to be there in a room with Ron Brown? 2 MR. SUN: Same objection. 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and answered. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: I feel good. I feel really good. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And you felt that the contributions you had made 8 before to the Democratic Party had helped you finally get 9 into a room with Ron Brown. 10 A I feel the contribution I give before to know 11 people who I know and invite me to go over there. That's all 12 I can say, which is Reedy Lewis introduced Jude Kearney to me 13 and Jude Kearney invite me over there. 14 Q So if you hadn't done all that, you never would 15 have been in China. 16 A I haven't done that, I never have a chance to meet 17 those people and those people never have a chance to invite 18 me to go there. 19 Q Okay. Now, with regard to this other meeting, do 20 you know generally what went on at that meeting with Ron 21 Brown and American businessmen in China? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What was the meeting about? 24 A It's kind of breakfast, kind of breakfast speech to 25 the American businessmen in China. That's all I remember. 105 1 Q Did Ron Brown discuss how his Commerce Department 2 was going to help further the transfer of technology at that 3 speech? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q You don't know? 6 A I don't know what it was. Larry, I was set all the 7 back to the last table. I could not hear much. 8 Q You were more interested in who you were going to 9 meet than what was going on. 10 A That's correct. 11 Q You wanted to make some good contacts. 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Did you meet some people at that meeting? 14 A A lot of business exchange, business card exchange. 15 Q AT what point did you get to meet Colonel Liu? 16 Mrs. Liu? 17 A 1996, June or July 1996. 18 Q You met some Chinese people when you were on the 19 trade mission, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you ask them when you met them to show me an 22 identification, who are you, where do you come from? 23 A No, only business card exchange. 24 Q So you don't know whether or not some of the people 25 you met on that trade mission to China might have been -- 106 1 A American delegation or Chinese? 2 Q Chinese. You don't know whether or not some of 3 these Chinese might have been part of Chinese intelligence at 4 the time, you had no way of knowing that. 5 A I have no idea. 6 Q Were you aware of any American counterintelligence 7 people on this trade mission to protect the Americans that 8 went? 9 A Nobody talked to me. 10 Q Are you aware of any security on this trade 11 mission? 12 A Nobody talked to me. I am unofficial member. 13 Q Did you ever hear anybody say look out for this, 14 look out for this, look out for that, don't go there, don't 15 go here, anything like that? 16 A Only among the American businessmen. They said to 17 me don't go to the street by yourself. 18 Q Because of crime. 19 A No. If you are first time to be here. I don't 20 know why they say that to me. 21 Q But no one said beware of Chinese intelligence 22 people that might be trying to get to know you. 23 A Nobody say anything like that to me. 24 Q All right. Do you remember anybody that you met at 25 this first meeting? 107 1 A I don't. But I collect a lot of business cards and 2 that's why the FBI and the Department of Justice ask me who 3 it is, I don't remember. 4 Q Do you still have those business cards? 5 A I think I do. Yes. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, we would ask to produce 7 them, particularly since they were generated on that trade 8 mission. 9 THE WITNESS: I already provided to the FBI and 10 Department of Justice. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. We'll ask your counsel to 12 kindly provide us copies. 13 MR. SUN: Copies of business cards that he believes 14 might have been given to him on that trade mission. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Was there any other documentation that you acquired 19 on that trade mission? 20 A No. 21 Q The second meeting that you've describe, the 22 American government thanking the Chinese government, where 23 did that meeting take place? 24 A Same place. China Great Wall Hotel. 25 Q And who was present at that meeting? 108 1 A Maybe 1000, 1200 people. The Chinese official, 2 American official, the delegation and also American 3 businessmen like me. And the table was huge. Every table is 4 set up for 20 people. Round table. 5 Q I'm sorry? 6 A Round table. 7 Q Who did you sit with at the table? 8 A I sit with Charlie Trie and then a lot of Chinese 9 businessmen. Our table is very end, which is we are not 10 important. Very far is not important. 11 Q How did you get to sit at this table? Did Mr. Trie 12 invite you? 13 A I don't remember. Nobody ask me this question and 14 I really don't remember. 15 Q Who are the other Chinese that were there? I know 16 you're American, Mr. Trie is American. Who were the Chinese 17 there? 18 A Low ranking Chinese official. Low ranking. 19 Q Who were they? 20 A It's on my business card. 21 Q Do you have their business cards? 22 A That's one I'm going to provide to you. 23 Q Okay. Can you remember any names now? 24 A No. 25 Q Do you remember where they came from? 109 1 A Economic department, international trade 2 department. 3 Q Is that Monfort? They call that Monfort? 4 A No, I don't know. 5 Q Okay. 6 A International trade department and banking 7 department. That's all I know. 8 Q Do you remember what their rank was? 9 A Low ranking officer. Like deputy director. Not 10 even director. 11 Q Did anyone speak at this meeting? 12 A Hello, how are you, what do you do? I say what I 13 did, fax broadcasting. That's it. 14 Q Between the time that you came to China and you had 15 this meeting, these two meetings, these two big meetings that 16 you've just described in the China Great Wall Hotel, did you 17 have a chance to talk to Mr. Trie himself? 18 A Yes, I did tell you the last time, the very first 19 day when I arrived there and the second day -- the very first 20 day I arrived there, Jude Kearney has told me that he is 21 going to introduce to me a gentleman, a Chinese-American, 22 named Charlie Trie, so the next day, in the afternoon, early 23 afternoon, we met at the coffee shop of the same hotel. 24 Q And you talked to Charlie Trie. 25 A Yes. 110 1 Q And, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you 2 testified that you discussed a little bit about your fax 3 business. 4 A Yes. He asked me what kind of business have you 5 been doing. 6 Q Right. And was there anything that you didn't 7 testify to the first time that you can now remember that you 8 talked about with Charlie Trie on that day? 9 Why don't you just tell me what -- maybe you'll 10 remember something different now that you didn't remember 11 before. 12 A I know you also contributed some money to the DNC, 13 he said to me. If we want to do it -- as Chinese-American, 14 we should do it together, we can get more influence. I did 15 not understand what that mean at that time. 16 Q Influence? 17 A I don't -- let me use the right Chinese words. 18 Q You just said influence in English, right? 19 A Let me correct that one. Maybe I used the wrong 20 English word because the Chinese way, you have more power to 21 speak out. How do you say that? It is more power to speak 22 up for your -- 23 Q More juice? 24 A Well, -- 25 Q Pretty close. 111 1 A Pretty close. Pretty close. More -- a group of 2 people give more money, you can speak up more. Juice -- so I 3 want to use influence. 4 MR. SUN: Clout. Maybe another word would be 5 clout. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Clout. Okay. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And what else did Mr. Trie say? 9 A See what I can do, see what I can help you to do 10 the business, and I feel like kind of broker or agent. If I 11 say agent, like a real estate agent. 12 I said, well, I said to myself, I said I speak the 13 language, I know the culture a little bit and I am here, why 14 do I need a broker? I don't need a broker. 15 Q Mr. Trie was telling you I can make sure your money 16 gets a better return when I donate it for the Democrats. Is 17 that the way you took it? More juice? 18 A Mr. Trie said to me if you are going to donate in 19 the future, we should donate it together as a group. Then we 20 have more power to speak out. 21 Q And to get things in exchange. 22 A No, not that. That word he didn't say. 23 Q He didn't say that. 24 A He didn't say that word. 25 Q But you took that as to what he was suggesting. 112 1 A I feel it. 2 Q Did he say we're going to call this the Trie group? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you ever heard that expression? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you ever seen a video of Ron Brown at the 7 White House where he talks about the Trie Group? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you know you were a member? 10 A I am a member? 11 Q Do you know that he told -- Ron Brown told the 12 President that you were a member of the Trie Group? 13 A I didn't know that. This is first time I know 14 that. 15 Q Now, that video was shown on TV, so you never saw 16 that video? 17 A During that period, the last two and a half year, 18 sometimes I am watching TV and sometimes I really hate 19 watching TV. 20 Q Now, you had -- 21 A But I watch your TV all the time. 22 Q When I'm on? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Thank you. Am I good? 25 A Yes, very good. 113 1 Q Thank you. 2 A And thank you for protecting me. 3 Q You're welcome. You had later discussions with 4 Mr. Trie, correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And tell me about those later discussions that you 7 had on that trade trip. 8 A On that trip? 9 Q Yes. And then we'll go beyond the trade trip. 10 A I asked him after he in Beijing, where do you want 11 to go? And then he said, well, we are going to Shanghai and 12 Hong Kong and somewhere else. Now, let me remind you, Larry, 13 I was sick. Really sick. The first time, the air and the 14 water is different. 15 If you never been to China, first time, my family 16 did the same thing. I was really sick. I just called my 17 wife and I want to go home and then I don't care what happen 18 and I don't sleep. So I said, well, good luck, goodbye, and 19 I'm on my way home. And I know they are going to south, that 20 was it. 21 Q Well, let me focus you a little more. You did have 22 discussions with Mr. Trie later about campaign contributions, 23 correct? Political campaign contributions. 24 A That was the time I told you that if we donated 25 together, we will be more powerful. 114 1 Q Right. That was your first conversation with him 2 about that. 3 A Yes. Yes. 4 Q Tell me about your later conversations with him. 5 A I met with him later on. I came back and I was 6 still up in my hotel, already on my way to go to listen to 7 the speech of the President of United States address to some 8 Democratic member, and there's no money request required. 9 I am on my way and then Charlie Trie with Mr. Wu, 10 Ng Lap Seng, whatever you guys call him by. I read his name 11 as Mr. Wu, W-u. 12 MR. SUN: Can you give Mr. Klayman a timeframe on 13 this? 14 THE WITNESS: I believe after we come back from 15 China. I don't remember exactly the date. And I met them at 16 the J.W. Marriott Hotel, on my way, ready to go, and then 17 Charlie Trie walks in with this one group of Chinese from 18 southern China, with Mr. Wu. 19 And I said hi, hi, then they are ready to check in 20 and they did not check in because I said -- they asked me 21 where are you going, I said I'm going to listen to the speech 22 of the President of The United States and they said can we go 23 with you? I said, yeah, there's no money required, why not? 24 So everyone jump into the taxi, and he put all the 25 luggage in the lobby and then asked somebody to check in and 115 1 then we head over there and then we listened to the 2 President's speech and then come back. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Why were you at the Marriott? Why did you come to 5 Washington? 6 A Well, I think I was very often during that time, 7 '94, I want to get business. Larry, if I know you, I will go 8 to your office, too. I want you to have my fax broadcasting 9 service to be used. I go everywhere. And then I hit all of 10 the 50 states, but I begin to find it out a lot of decision 11 makers, mover, it's right here in Washington, D.C. 12 Q You came for a dual purpose, for many purposes, so 13 you could do business and also go to the President's speech? 14 A Yes. Yes. That is -- I don't remember exactly, 15 but I think that is one of the reasons, too. 16 Q And what was he speaking about? 17 A I don't remember. I don't remember. Really, I 18 don't remember. Addressed to the Democrat members. 19 Q By that time you had already given more than 20 $100,000 to the Democrats, correct? Roughly speaking. 21 A The record speaks itself. 22 Q Okay. You were a managing trustee by then. 23 A I do not know, but I the records say yes. I never 24 know until from the FBI and Department of Justice told me 25 that in 1998. 116 1 Q You didn't know you had won the prize. 2 A I didn't know. 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q And you knew that as part of giving all that money 7 you got to go to speeches like this. 8 A I did not know at that time, but later on I find it 9 out, if you donate certain money, you can go to the White 10 House for Christmas party once in a year. But I didn't know. 11 I don't even know I was vice chairman. 12 Q Now, you're saying you went to see -- do you know 13 why Mr. Trie was there? Was he there to go to the speech, 14 too? 15 A I do not know, but I know he is entertaining these 16 southern China businessmen and city official. 17 Q Is that the favorite place, to your knowledge, the 18 J.W. Marriott, for Asian-American businessmen in Washington? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 21 MR. SUN: Yes. I'm going to object to it. I find 22 it highly irrelevant to this litigation. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. That's fine. 24 Sustained. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: There was no intonation with regard 117 1 to that, I just wanted to see if there's other things that 2 have been going on over the years. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, it's sustained. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I used to go there myself. 5 THE WITNESS: I stay in J.W. Marriott for various 6 times. 7 MR. SUN: Answer his questions. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. So I should answer? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: What I'm asking you, if I may ask it 10 another way, Your Honor, it seems that nearly everything 11 happens at the J.W. Marriott Hotel. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Now, I take it you did discuss with Mr. Trie after 17 that making donations. You had other discussions with 18 Mr. Trie about making donations, political donations. 19 A Could be. Could be not. I don't remember. Could 20 be. 21 Q Now, you said Mr. Wu went with you to the 22 President's speech, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Ng Lap Seng. 25 A Ng Lap Seng. Yes. That's Cantonese pronunciation. 118 1 Q Right. Was Mr. Wu introduced to you by Mr. Trie? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And what did Mr. Trie tell you about Mr. Wu? 4 A Businessman, very rich. And then asked me about my 5 business, asked me to give them the permission to visit my 6 office to see the machine we got. 7 Q Who is they, Mr. Wu? 8 A Mr. Wu and the city mayor and the lower ranking 9 officer of the city. The city mayor. 10 Q What do you mean, C.D. mayor? 11 A City. 12 Q City mayor? 13 A The mayor of the city. 14 Q Of what city? 15 A Nanghai. 16 Q Nanghai. 17 A Nanghai. 18 Q In Macao? 19 A No, like Washington, D.C. and the Potomac River, 20 the other side of Virginia. 21 Q Okay. And what Chinese city is that? 22 A Nanghai. 23 Q Nanghai? Okay. Did Mr. Wu tell you he was from 24 Nanghai? 25 A Yes, later on I find that out. 119 1 Q And that's in mainland China. 2 A That's mainland China. I been there. 3 Q What else did Mr. Trie or Mr. Wu tell you about 4 Mr. Wu when you first met him? 5 A Very rich man. All the time. 6 Q Did he tell you that he is a Chinese communist? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you subsequently learn this? 9 A No. 10 Q You are aware of that today, aren't you, from news 11 reports? 12 A From newspaper. From newspaper. 13 Q Did you know that he had connections with the 14 government of China at that time? 15 A If a businessman is a good businessman in Macao, 16 very rich, what experience I got, I think they should have a 17 good connection, but I don't know what kind of connection. 18 Q Okay. What else did you learn about Mr. Wu? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to this continued line of 20 questioning. Outside the scope. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 22 THE WITNESS: They came to my office and see it and 23 then I take them to Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce because I 24 am a gold circuit member. They have a grand opening for the 25 new building. And after that, they invite me to go to the 120 1 seafood restaurant. 2 I did, I went there with them, and since they say 3 Mr. Wu is very rich, so after that we have a 3000 some 4 dollars bill to pay and then Mr. Wu's credit card was 5 declined. Declined. 6 And then I said, well, are you joke or what? You 7 ask me to be here, to be guest, and you ask me, Charlie Trie 8 say can you pay for it? I said, no, I'm not going to pay for 9 it. 10 This afternoon he was there in my office and offer 11 me a million dollars to buy my machine and then exclusive 12 right and your credit card was declined for $3000, what kind 13 of rich man are you? Goodbye. I just silently walk away. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Well, who paid the bill? 16 MR. SUN: Just to make the record clear, that was a 17 different incident than the Washington -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We're aware of that. He was in Los 19 Angeles. 20 THE WITNESS: Now we are in Los Angeles. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 22 THE WITNESS: And I find out -- 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Who paid the bill? 25 A Mr. Wu. He pulled it out and then he counted a lot 121 1 of cash and gave it to the owner. He said I just don't want 2 to pay you cash. I do have cash, but how come my credit card 3 was declined? He call long distance call from the restaurant 4 to his bank and shouted to them and I don't care, it's a 5 person whose credit card was declined. 6 For whatever how rich he said he is, I don't want 7 to do business with him and I feel lucky until today I did 8 not do business with him. 9 Q What about -- did you tell Mr. Trie what your 10 feelings were about Mr. Wu after you saw that he couldn't get 11 his credit card accepted? 12 A Well, in Chinese way, you just keep quiet and just 13 walk away and that is already said it all. 14 Q Now, did you have any more encounters with 15 Mr. Trie? I know you walked away from Mr. Wu, but did you 16 ever see Mr. Trie again? Did you ever talk to Mr. Trie 17 again? 18 A Maybe they came back again to my office, talking 19 about the business, continued want to represent my company in 20 China. I was really like a Chinese-American to 21 Chinese-American, to say, well, fine, you can come to visit 22 me, but not really care about doing business with him. That 23 was the best recollection I got. 24 Q Did you ever meet another Mr. Wu? A Mr. Wu from 25 China Resources? 122 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know the company, China Resources? 3 A I read it from the Chinese newspaper and American 4 newspaper in '98. 5 Q Did you know whether or not a Colonel Liu -- 6 A Hold on. You also have to tell me Chinese Resource 7 and the Chinese name. I always talk to the Department of 8 Justice and the FBI, when I am Chinese-American, when I read 9 the business card, I always read it in Chinese character. 10 There is no way I read it on the other side, like English 11 character. So I might remember in the Chinese character, 12 Chinese Resources. 13 Q Well, you now know what I'm referring to, though, 14 don't you? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 Q Okay. And you are aware that it's been reported 17 that Colonel Liu, Madam Li, who you've had contact with, 18 correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Worked for that company. 21 A I did not know. 22 Q But you didn't know it at the time. 23 A I didn't know it at that time, I didn't know today. 24 Q Did you know at the time that China Resources was 25 reported to be part of Chinese intelligence? 123 1 A I do. 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Have you ever heard of The China Great Wall 6 Company, not the hotel, but The China Great Wall Company? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You know what that is, right? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead. Do you know what The 11 China Great Wall Company is? 12 THE WITNESS: There's two China Great Wall Company 13 I know. One China Great Wall is the China Great Wall 14 Cultural Committee who deal with me, okay? This small 15 company who want to buy my machine. That's a company with 50 16 people. And the other one, The China Great Wall Hotel, you 17 have mentioned about rocket or space or whatever. And that I 18 don't know. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You don't know whether you've ever met anyone from 21 China Great Wall Company? 22 A If I did -- 23 Q The big one, the rocket company. 24 A Well, if I did. I don't know. They didn't mention 25 it or identify themselves. The only person I met is Kona Lee 124 1 and her boss, which is the president of the company. They're 2 in the company brochure. 3 Q Do you know that John Huang's former company was 4 the Lippo Group? 5 A I read it from the newspaper. 6 Q Did you know that the Lippo Group owns part of 7 China Resources or did own part of China Resources? 8 A I read it from the newspaper. 9 Q You didn't learn that on your own? 10 A No. As I told you, I never have the close 11 encounter with Mr. Huang. 12 Q Do you know where Mr. Huang is currently employed? 13 A Right now? 14 Q Yes. 15 A I don't know. I care about who will employ me. 16 Q I understand. I understand. Do you know whether 17 or not Mr. Huang has been threatened like you? 18 A I do not know, but I won't be surprised. 19 Q Why wouldn't you be surprised? 20 A It takes courage and risk to come out and tell the 21 while truth. 22 Q Do you know whether -- 23 A And take your family to support. 24 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Trie has been 25 threatened? 125 1 A That I don't know. 2 Q It wouldn't surprise you if you learned that 3 either, would it? 4 A I wouldn't be surprised. 5 Q Do you know whether other Chinese-Americans have 6 been threatened over this whole scandal? 7 A I don't know, but I won't be surprised. 8 Q Do you have any knowledge, Mr. Chung, as to why the 9 only people that wound up getting prosecuted and convicted 10 like yourself are Asian-Americans, people from India, people 11 from Indonesia, why none of the white guys got prosecuted? 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you have any knowledge about that? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained, 18 Mr. Klayman. 19 MR. SUN: Don't answer. When he says sustained, 20 don't answer. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you have any knowledge -- I'll ask it a 23 different way. 24 MR. SUN: When he says sustained, Mr. Chung, then 25 you don't answer it. 126 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask it a different way. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you know why it is -- have you ever thought 5 about why it is that it appears to only be foreigners and 6 people with foreign descent that were prosecuted? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 8 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I'm going to object. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Now, do you know who Mr. Wu -- have you ever heard 12 of Mr. Wu that worked for China Resources? 13 A No. He told me he is working in Macao and China. 14 MR. SUN: He's talking about -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll clear it up. I'll clear it up. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q The Mr. Wu you're talking about is the one you met. 18 A Yes. 19 Q But you are aware that there's another Mr. Wu. 20 A No. I'm talking about -- 21 Q If I tell you that there was a Mr. Wu that worked 22 for China Resources that met with Ron Brown and John Huang at 23 the Commerce Department, would that refresh your 24 recollection? 25 A No. I don't have any clue. 127 1 Q Mr. Wu who was connected with the Chinese arms 2 industry, another Mr. Wu. 3 A No. 4 Q Who helped import AK-47s into Los Angeles. 5 A That I don't know about. 6 Q I think I actually may be confused, Mr. Chung. 7 Have you ever heard of a Wong Jung? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Okay. Did you ever meet Wong Jung? 10 A Once. 11 Q Where did you meet him? 12 A His office. 13 Q And how did you meet him? 14 A Remember one of the vice presidents of the company 15 was his company, was one of the member of the radio address 16 group, I call radio address group, but at that time, the 17 president of that company, the bank, China Trust, whatever 18 bank it is, is not Wong Jung, it's not the other one ready to 19 retire, and Wong Jung take over the position and I was there 20 and the vice president who doesn't do too much favor back to 21 me since I've been invest a lot for them to come over here, 22 so he's thinking it's appropriate for me to go to his office 23 have five minutes photo op with his boss with me, it will be 24 good enough for me to see them. And I was handshake with 25 them photo op. 128 1 I would like to say to you in five minutes talk, I 2 talk four minutes and 15 seconds about my system and 3 everything and he was very polite, nice to meet you and take 4 a picture and move on. 5 Q Did he ever tell you what he did other than China 6 Trust? 7 A No, we only have a very formal meeting over 8 there, this is my new president of the company and, as I 9 told you, I speak four minutes and 15 seconds about my 10 system, handshake, pose picture, nice to meet you, Mr. Chung, 11 goodbye. 12 Q Okay. So you have a picture with Mr. Wong Jung. 13 A I don't have it. They took the picture. 14 Q Have you subsequently learned that Mr. Wong Jung in 15 fact was tied in with China Resources? 16 A I read in the newspaper, but at that time, I don't 17 know. 18 Q The same company of Colonel Liu. 19 A I did not know at that time. Read in the 20 newspaper. 21 Q Did you know that he was tied in with the Chinese 22 arms industry? 23 A That I don't know. Later on, I read it from a lot 24 of Chinese newspaper and a lot of American newspaper. 25 Q And did you know that he was Chinese intelligence? 129 1 A I don't know that. The only thing I know is he's 2 the son of one of the very famous Chinese generals. 3 Q And what general is that? 4 A Wan Chin. He the one who killed a lot of Chinese 5 Turkish, back there in Zhe Jiang Provence. 6 Q When was this? 7 A I was in Zhe Jiang Provence and then local people 8 told me that. When the kids cry, they say General Wan Chin 9 is coming and the kids stop crying. That was during the 10 cultural revolution. 11 Q Did you know that at the time that you met Wong 12 Jung that that was his uncle? 13 A No, it was the father. 14 Q The father. 15 A Somebody told me that, Chinese told me that his 16 father is very famous general. 17 Q Do you have any knowledge as to meetings by 18 Ron Brown with Wong Jung and John Huang and Donald Forrest, 19 people by those names, at the Commerce Department? 20 A No. 21 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 22 those individuals discussed lowering barriers to export high 23 technology to China? 24 A No. 25 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether they 130 1 discussed transferring encryption technology to China? 2 A No, I didn't know the conversation between them. 3 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 4 satellite encryptions have been given by the Commerce 5 Department or people associated with the Commerce Department 6 to China? 7 A No, I don't have any knowledge. 8 Q Do you have any knowledge about an individual named 9 Ira Sockowitz? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you have any knowledge as to an incident where 12 satellite encryptions and three CIA reports on China, Russia 13 and India -- 14 A No, I don't. 15 Q -- left the Commerce Department via Ira Sockowitz? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Have you ever heard of someone by the name of 18 Ginger Lew? 19 A Every time when you guys talking about Chinese 20 names, you give English pronunciation, I have to say I don't 21 know your pronunciation. 22 Q Do you know of anyone who was formerly general 23 counsel of the Commerce Department named Lew? 24 A No. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me. Before we go on, Mr. 131 1 Sun, how would you say Ginger Lew in a way that would be more 2 meaningful? 3 MR. SUN: I don't know of any other name -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In other words, she Americanizes 5 her name, so it's spelled G-i-n-g-e-r L-e-w. Is that -- from 6 your Chinese -- 7 MR. SUN: I don't know her Chinese name. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know her. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of Hoyt 11 Zia? 12 A No. 13 Q Nancy Linn Patton? 14 A No. 15 Q Lauri Fitz-Pegado? 16 A No. 17 Q Ever heard of a company called Iridium? 18 A No. 19 Q Global Star? 20 A No. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 22 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 23 THE COURT REPORTER: 14. 24 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 14 25 was marked for identification.) 132 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q When did you get into town? 3 A D.C.? 4 Q This town. Yes. 5 A This time? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Last night. 8 Q Last night? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. I'm showing you what's Exhibit 14, a copy of 11 an article with the title "FBI Records Outline China's 12 Attempts to Silence Chung" by Jerry Seper of The Washington 13 Times. 14 A Yesterday. 15 Q Yesterday's article. Have you seen this article? 16 A No. 17 Q Let's go through it. It may help with your 18 testimony. The first paragraph says, and I'm reading this to 19 you to see if it refreshes your recollection and it will also 20 serve as a reference point for the questions I'm going to ask 21 you. 22 MR. SUN: Your Honor, can I ask for a proffer as to 23 why this article has any relevance to this litigation? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: These companies went on the subject 25 China trade mission. 133 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q The first paragraph, "Chinese intelligence officers 4 were more significantly involved than previously suspected in 5 efforts to monitor Democrat fundraiser Johnny Chung's 6 cooperation with the FBI's campaign finance probe, relaying 7 instructions to a middle man on a near-daily basis." 8 Is that a correct statement? 9 A Correct. 10 Q Who was the middle man that's discussed here? Was 11 that Mr. Luu? 12 A Mr. Luu. 13 Q Okay. Which Chinese intelligence officers are 14 involved? 15 MR. SUN: Objection. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: That you know of. 17 MR. SUN: I want to object at this point, 18 Your Honor. 19 First of all, I think the question and the previous 20 question calls for speculation and, as I think was 21 previously noted on the record at the last session and also 22 in Mr. Chung's testimony before the Congress, Mr. Chung has 23 been instructed by the Department of Justice not to get into 24 the names of certain individuals that he encountered in some 25 of his dealings. 134 1 So I am going to instruct him not to answer that 2 question to the extent it calls for speculation, but there is 3 not just that, I think the instruction is specific as to the 4 names and circumstances surrounding those individuals that 5 the Department of Justice has directed him not to talk about. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. What are we going to 7 do about that, Mr. Klayman? That may be a part of his 8 agreement with the Department of Justice that he's not 9 supposed to do certain things. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: We would ask that that agreement be 11 proffered to you and obviously he's instructed him not to 12 answer now, Your Honor, and if that agreement doesn't hold 13 up, then we would ask Your Honor to ask him to answer it. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, can you shed any 15 light on this? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, no, I can't shed any 17 further light on it. However, I would certainly agree with 18 the objection to the extent that it's way beyond the scope of 19 discovery in this case. It has nothing to do with Department 20 of Commerce documents. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, it does have to do with an 22 effort by a foreign government to silence the man from 23 testifying. I think it bears directly on whether or not 24 there was an effort to keep him from testifying in this and 25 other places. It seems to go directly to a troubling aspect 135 1 of this. 2 MS. BRASWELL: It doesn't say anything about his 3 deposition. It talks about his cooperation with the FBI's 4 campaign finance probe and that's not what this case is 5 about. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, she hasn't read the article 7 yet. 8 MR. SUN: Your Honor -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let me see where we 10 are. Please. We now have a situation where I take it the 11 FBI investigated the matters discussed in this article and 12 representatives of the Department of Justice advised Mr. 13 Chung, to review Mr. Sun, that he was not to speak about 14 these matters? 15 MR. SUN: Speak about certain people that he dealt 16 with that came up in the course of the investigation that I 17 think relate to this question about Chinese intelligence 18 officers and Beijing-directed operations, things of that 19 nature, he's been asked and was asked not to speak about in 20 his congressional testimony. 21 If Mr. Klayman wishes to inquire further, I needs 22 to inquire with the Department of Justice about, you know, 23 who and what and whether or not something is classified or 24 not. I'm only honoring the request that was made by the 25 Department of Justice to us prior to Mr. Chung's 136 1 congressional testimony and some ground rules were set in 2 that regard and Congressman Burton's committee was aware of 3 this and steered away from it. 4 So to the extent that Mr. Klayman wants to inquire 5 of Mr. Chung in connection with China and any discussions 6 with Mr. Luu, who I guess is the subject of this article, and 7 any discussions they had about the Department of Commerce, I 8 don't think that's a problem for the purposes of the 9 deposition. If there are questions about the Department of 10 Commerce and Mr. Luu, I don't think that's the subject of the 11 DOJ request to Mr. Chung. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, we have, as Your Honor 13 correctly pointed out succinctly, we have an issue here of 14 intimidating or attempting to intimidate at least a witness 15 in this case. 16 As Your Honor noted, Judge Lamberth in his order of 17 December 22nd talks about issues that bear on the potential 18 obstruction of justice, not producing documents, suppressing 19 documents, false testimony, so obviously it is relevant. I 20 think Your Honor hit the nail on the head. 21 My question was, maybe Mr. Sun can tell us, is 22 there a written agreement with the Justice Department? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who at the Department of Justice 24 did you deal with? Can you tell us that? 25 MR. SUN: Yes, I can, Your Honor. Craig Iscoe, I 137 1 believe, who is in Mr. Holder's office. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm familiar with Mr. Iscoe. All 3 right. And was the understanding memorialized in any way? 4 MR. SUN: Yes. There was correspondence to that 5 effect and I believe -- yes, there was correspondence on this 6 subject, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Correspondence between you and 8 Mr. Iscoe? 9 MR. SUN: Yes, I believe it was with Mr. Iscoe. It 10 could have been with the head of the campaign financing task 11 force, but both the chief of the campaign financing task 12 force and Mr. Iscoe were involved in this process. 13 And they requested that he not answer questions at 14 least before the House committee that dealt with these 15 persons who may have represented themselves to be Chinese 16 agents? 17 MR. SUN: It may not even have gone as far as 18 anybody representing themselves as intelligence agents, 19 Your Honor. As I understand it, certain individuals that 20 Mr. Chung dealt with were the subject of ongoing governmental 21 inquiry such that the government felt that disclosure of 22 these individuals could impact the government's 23 investigation. 24 These issues were raised with congressional 25 staffers and with the Department of Justice prior to Mr. 138 1 Chung's congressional testimony and as a result of that the 2 Department of Justice instructed us not to talk about certain 3 of these individuals. And I'm fairly confident that I had a 4 conversation or had communications with the department about 5 whether that would extend to this deposition and they 6 confirmed that that direction was going to be in effect in 7 this deposition as well. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And therefore, could you tell us 9 very precisely what you think you are bound not to talk 10 about? 11 MR. SUN: The names of certain individuals that 12 Mr. Chung dealt with who could fall into this potential 13 category of potentially being associated with Chinese 14 intelligence. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And is that in addition to the 16 Robert Luu who was mentioned here? 17 MR. SUN: Yes. Yes, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In addition other than Luu? 19 MR. SUN: Other than Robert Luu? Mr. Chung can, if 20 required, talk about his dealings with Robert Luu. Again, I 21 have an objection about whether that's even relevant to this 22 litigation, but Robert Luu is not off limits in terms of the 23 Department of Justice's direction to us. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Two things, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, Mr. Klayman? 139 1 MR. KLAYMAN: During the last deposition session, 2 Mr. Sun made reference to three individuals that at that time 3 he alleged were off limits, so to speak. So to the extent 4 these people aren't those three individuals, then the issue 5 is moot. 6 A second point is that there is an issue with 7 regard to the powers of this Court over the powers of the 8 Justice Department and Congress. This Court clearly has its 9 own powers, which it's not bound by another agency, in 10 particular, the Department of Justice, which itself has been 11 in a very controversial position over this whole campaign 12 finance matter, where in fact the director of the FBI has 13 alleged that the Department of Justice is not being 14 constructive in the investigation, that's Louis Freeh. So 15 for the Justice Department to tell this Court that you cannot 16 get into these issues obviously puts itself in a conflict 17 situation. 18 A third point is that in Judge Lamberth's order of 19 December 22nd, although he was certainly polite in what he 20 wrote in the orders, there are issues in that order with 21 regard to Justice Department conduct here. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But you want to track here, you 23 want to go over this story and ask Mr. Chung some questions 24 about his dealings with Luu and we're agreed there's nothing 25 improper about that, it doesn't cause him to violate any 140 1 agreement he has. Now, what else are we going to go into 2 that might cause him to run afoul of the agreement he has 3 with the Department of Justice? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor hit the nail on the head. 5 We want to know who it is that is tampering with this witness 6 before this Court. The Court deserves to have that 7 information. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. There is no 9 evidence anybody is tampering with Mr. Chung with reference 10 to this case before this Court and this article doesn't say 11 that. 12 MR. SUN: I have to not only join in that, 13 Your Honor, but I will state for the record that Mr. Chung is 14 not being tampered with and if Mr. Klayman wants to go to 15 Judge Lamberth or yourself and present evidence of that, he 16 can try to do that and get the Department of Justice involved 17 if he wants to get these three names divulged for some reason 18 in a public proceeding. That's a fight between Mr. Klayman 19 and the Justice Department. We're only honoring our 20 agreement with the department. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, the witness is between, it 22 seems to me, a rock and a hard place because he gave his 23 word, Mr. Sun gave his word to the Department of Justice that 24 they would not do this, both in reference to the testimony 25 before the Congress and also in this deposition. 141 1 You're quite right to point out, Mr. Klayman, that 2 that may or may not bind Judge Lamberth and me, but it seems 3 to me they have to be at the table and be heard about that so 4 that they can -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that may be -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- if they wish move, for example, 7 to stay the taking of the deposition because it interferes 8 with ongoing criminal investigations. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, my suggestion -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Such orders are issued all the 11 time. Now, one of the ways I thought we could finesse it 12 would be to track the article, which is, after all, public 13 information as carefully as we can and if you go beyond that, 14 I will sustain the objection subject to your claiming that it 15 is improper for the Department of Justice to do so. We'll 16 get the Department of Justice to the table and see what we 17 work out. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I agree with your approach, 19 Your Honor. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I can't think of what else we can 21 do. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Just to clear up the record here -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I just don't -- what I'm trying to 24 say is that we have to be very careful with Mr. Chung and the 25 promises he made to the Department of Justice. 142 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let's all recognize the very 2 fact that this issue may come up later, may require future 3 testimony, perhaps we can -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we will have to see. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: -- get it when he comes back for 6 meetings with Regnoire. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's see. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just clear up the record here, 9 there absolutely is no doubt that people from whatever source 10 have threatened and there is no doubt that this case is the 11 very first case that Chinagate ever arose, the whole issue. 12 It's been out there for a very long time. It is the 13 granddaddy of this issue. There have certainly been other 14 things that have occurred after that. So it is relevant to 15 this case, I just want that clear on the record. 16 MR. SUN: I'm not sure what relevance that has -- 17 MS. BRASWELL: That doesn't clear up the record -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's see what we can -- 19 MR. SUN: -- to the Commerce Department, 20 Your Honor -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's see -- 22 MR. SUN: And I have to make one other statement, 23 if I might, Your Honor. The Washington Times, whatever type 24 of publication it is, is a newspaper and newspapers report a 25 lot of things, particularly in this case. A lot of it is 143 1 erroneous, a lot of it's correct, but I would appreciate 2 Mr. Klayman just asking my client questions about not what's 3 in a newspaper article, but what were his experiences, who he 4 met with, who he dealt with, rather than track newspaper 5 articles. I don't think that's -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, it seems to me he could use 7 that as a rough outline and I hope that -- I thought he was 8 doing it to expedite the matter, so that we could see what is 9 wrong and what is right about this effort that was made to 10 silence this person from giving testimony. 11 Why don't you go through it as quickly as we can? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I will, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As we hit the rough spots, we'll 14 see where we are. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll reserve. So I take it there's 16 an instruction by Mr. Sun not to identify these Chinese 17 officers referenced in the first paragraph. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: And we'll address that later. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And you have the right to address 21 that later. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Second paragraph, "The Beijing directed operation 25 is described in FBI transcripts of 20 telephone conversations 144 1 and meetings, along with 22 intercepted fax messages over 2 four months in 1988 involving Chung and Robert Luu," L-u-u, 3 "a Chinese-American who made subtle threats if Chung did not 4 keep silent and offered hush money for his defense if he 5 did." 6 Mr. Chung, it is your understanding, is it not, 7 that Mr. Luu did threaten you? 8 A I said it in front of Congress, I said it already 9 how he said and how I felt. 10 Q And is it your testimony that he wanted you to keep 11 silent and offered you hush money if you would? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q At the time that Mr. Luu did these things, did he 14 tell you that he was doing it on behalf of Chinese interests? 15 MR. SUN: Objection. Vague and ambiguous -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. 17 MR. SUN: -- as to the term Chinese interests. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll follow it up. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Phrase it a little more 20 carefully. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Can I get the response to this 22 and then I'll narrow it? The answer is yes? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can't answer that. I agree, 24 Chinese interests is a hard word to swallow, particularly -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Interests from the People's Republic 145 1 of China. 2 MR. SUN: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Say the whole question again, 4 Mr. Klayman. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q At the time that Mr. Luu told you these things, 7 that he was going to give you hush money, that you better not 8 say anything, to keep silent, he told you that he was doing 9 this on behalf of China. 10 MR. SUN: Objection. Assumes facts not in 11 evidence. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: Chinese people, which I take what he 14 says, the Chinese people who I know, the Chinese people I 15 know, the Chinese government. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Not people from Taiwan. 18 A No. 19 Q People from mainland China. 20 A Mainland China. 21 Q And did he tell you who those people were? 22 A At the very beginning of the meeting, he say don't 23 ask, you don't need to know. When the time come, I will let 24 you know, but don't ask and I won't tell you. 25 Larry, I been talking to him so many times, I 146 1 was -- I want to make another point. Since the very date 2 one, some newspaper didn't let it out right. I want to make 3 an official record. Since date one, I contact with the 4 Robert Luu, when he called me up. I don't even know if this 5 Robert Luu is someone I met before. 6 And during that time I plead guilty, I have so many 7 pressure and at the same time I was all the time I was 8 instructed by the FBI and Department of Justice, every word I 9 said, every move I make, every phone call I make, was under 10 the instruction of the FBI and the Department of Justice. 11 It's not what the newspaper said, I call him up and the FBI 12 was recording our conversation. No. 13 I record the conversation under the instruction of 14 the FBI. I want to make it very clear. Since the day one 15 until the very last day. 16 Q Did you come to learn who these people were at some 17 point? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And who are these people? 20 A I was under instruction -- you are going to hear 21 this very often, okay? Every word. I was under the 22 instruction of the FBI and the Department of Justice to 23 pretend to know something, to pretend to know nothing, to ask 24 specific question, nail down the question, question after 25 question and push him. 147 1 And then one of the issue is who is behind him, 2 what person is behind him, and then later on we come up with 3 Guniang, the Chinese word, and there's only one person there 4 called Ms. Liu, the general's daughter. You're talking 5 Guniang. I give her that nickname at the J.W. Marriott Hotel 6 when she came there. And then after months conversation and 7 phone call and everything, that pressure hit Mr. Robert Luu, 8 finally he come up with the name. 9 The FBI -- 10 Q The name being Colonel Liu. 11 A No, it's only Guniang. And later on become -- I 12 say the name. You're talking that and then he say yes. And 13 also I was under instruction by the FBI and the Department of 14 Justice to tell them Ji Shengde, General Ji Shengde's name. 15 And he say he know him. 16 There are so many conversation, pretend to -- 17 obviously I know thing about Loral and Hughes Aircraft, but I 18 had to pretend I know under the instruction of the FBI and 19 Department of Justice to ask him the question and see how 20 much he know. 21 I do want you to know this office, my office, is 22 like a studio, my meeting place. FBI hidden camera on the 23 carpet, under the table, on the wall, hidden camera, 24 microphone everywhere. Every conversation and every 25 telephone call, it was under instruction of the FBI and 148 1 Department of Justice. I record it and then when we are 2 doing the conversation, FBI have the team at the first floor 3 of my office in a small room and monitor every move. The 4 people protect me in the next door. 5 I do want to repeat this, since the very date one 6 when I begin the contact with him, or he contact with me 7 first, I was under the instruction by the FBI and Department 8 of Justice to say what and when to say it and how to ask the 9 question. 10 As the actor of this whole incident, sometimes you 11 ask me what did I say, I don't remember because I just passed 12 from this ear, listen to it and say to him and it's gone. 13 This is not true, this is not what I said to him 14 conversation, this is pretend, all instructed by the FBI. I 15 don't have too much knowledge about it, but their transcript 16 posted on the Internet and I didn't remember the memory I 17 got, yes, there is some, it is correct, but they are 18 instructions by the FBI and Department of Justice, not my own 19 conversations with him. 20 Q In addition Colonel Liu, did you understand there 21 to be other people who were behind the threats that Mr. Luu, 22 L-u-u, forwarded to you? 23 A There is one gentleman, he keeps saying Commander 24 Li. The day one I begin to ask him who is Commander Li. 25 Even I suspect he was under instruction by his superiors, the 149 1 people behind him, to talk to him, he was scripted like I was 2 scripted. 3 At one point, I find it out that way is he already 4 say goodbye to me and he walked to the door of the Hilton 5 hotel at Torrance, and he come back to me and he only say one 6 word, "Oh, by the way, Commander Li want me to say hello to 7 you and wish you good health." I say, "Well, I don't know 8 who Commander Li is, but wish him well, too." 9 And that was the moment I feel he was scripted, 10 that he had to mention the name. 11 Q Scripted, you mean? 12 A Yes, he was scripted by the people behind him. And 13 he keep saying some words sometimes I don't understand and 14 then I have to ask him speak up. You have to understand the 15 conversation, entire conversation, I was helped to the FBI 16 and Department of Justice because this was the guy who is 17 Vietnamese Chinese. 18 Q What kind of Chinese? 19 MR. SUN: Vietnamese. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Vietnamese Chinese? 21 THE WITNESS: Vietnamese Chinese. And he is 22 speaking with a poor Mandarin, which I speak Mandarin. And 23 he speak mostly in Cantonese, but I am Taiwanese, so the only 24 way we can say this to each other is I only talk to him 25 sometimes in English and sometimes in Mandarin and his 150 1 Mandarin is so poor I always keep asking him speak out, okay? 2 Three times, four times, sometimes I have to repeat what he 3 said and say, "Is that correct?" In order for recording. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q And you later came to know who Commander Li was? 6 A Not as of this moment, until now, I don't know. I 7 find out from the FBI, they say that Commander Li is a 8 retired general and raising chicken back there in China or 9 something. I don't know who he is. I take at that time 10 maybe he mention Commander Li is General Ji. 11 Q You thought he was using that as a euphemism for 12 General Ji. 13 A Yes, that's what I take it at that time. 14 Q Who is the father of Colonel Liu. 15 A No. No. No. 16 Q Are they related? 17 A No. 18 Q Okay. They just work together? 19 A General Ji's father is a former vice minister. He 20 is deputy speaker of the People's congress, the father of the 21 general. 22 Q Recently, you're aware General Ji was demoted in 23 China, correct? 24 A I spoke with my attorney three weeks ago in Chinese 25 newspaper and then they come out with Los Angeles Times two 151 1 days ago. 2 Q Do you know why? 3 MR. SUN: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Now, do you know of anyone else who Mr. Luu, L-u-u, 7 was referring to as threatening you? At any time. At any 8 time. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm afraid I don't understand that 10 question, Mr. Klayman. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. We just named two people. I'm 12 wondering if there's anybody else who was identified by Mr. 13 Luu as having threatened you. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I still don't get that. Who is 15 threatening whom in that sentence? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Are there any other people from China other than 18 Colonel Liu and General Li who you understood were 19 threatening you? 20 MR. SUN: Do you mean General Ji? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Colonel Li is General Ji, 22 according to his interpretation. 23 THE WITNESS: According to FBI interpretation. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. Right. 25 THE WITNESS: Not mine. 152 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Anybody else? 2 THE WITNESS: Department of Justice. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Anybody else? 4 THE WITNESS: They ask me to frame the question, to 5 ask him regarding one of the Chinese mafia member, organized 6 crime. The gentleman named Peter Chang, asked me for the 7 money back. The money was invested to my company by the 8 company of Great Wall International Cultural Company. It was 9 15 employee, a small company. And he, Peter Chang, was 10 threatening to kill my whole family, even before campaign 11 finance scandal broke. 12 I paid him back because the threat. I already 13 talked to the Department of Justice and the FBI and that was 14 one person. And then the other person I cannot talk about it 15 under the agreement with the Department of Justice. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q This Peter Chang, did you learn of him through your 19 discussions with Mr. Luu or are you talking about some other 20 source of information about Peter Chang? 21 A He identified -- Mr. Robert Luu identified him, 22 Peter Chang. 23 Q And he relayed information to you that Peter Chang 24 was going to kill you and your family? 25 A No. No. No. No. No. That was even way before I 153 1 know of Mr. Luu, talking to Mr. Luu. 2 Q Mr. Robert Luu mentioned the name of Peter Chang as 3 someone else -- 4 A Robert Luu was '98. Peter Chang was January '97. 5 Q Okay. But why did Mr. Robert Luu mention Peter 6 Chang? 7 A Because the FBI tried to ask me, let's find it out 8 if they are related to or not. Obviously, they are related 9 because of Mr. Robert Luu was monitored every move by the FBI 10 and he went to some place which involved Peter Chang and 11 other people knowing each other. And then at the first few 12 meetings, first few meeting, Robert Luu told me that he 13 doesn't know Peter Chang at all, but later on he admitted he 14 know him. And then he sound surprised when Peter Chang come 15 to ask me for the money and give me that kind of threat. 16 Q So you told Robert Luu that Peter Chang had 17 threatened you before. 18 A Under instruction by the FBI and the Department of 19 Justice and they wanted to find out how close they are and 20 how honest Robert Luu is talking to me. Obviously FBI and 21 Department of Justice already know what kind of relationship 22 they have. 23 Q And Peter Chang, does he live in the United States? 24 A Los Angeles. 25 Q And what does he do? 154 1 A I do not know. I do not know. The only thing he 2 said to me I can say to you, he is organized crime boss and 3 he is living in Los Angeles. And then I say you don't want 4 to touch me in this moment because I am a really hot cake, a 5 hot potato right now. And then he said, oh, nothing bother 6 me in my profession is to threaten people and kill people, 7 you just give me the money. 8 Q And that was 1997. 9 A 1997, January 10, 1997. 10 Q Where did that happen? 11 A At the city of El Hambra, County of Los Angeles. 12 Q And where were you at the time that happened? 13 A I was in Los Angeles. He was threatening me for 14 almost 45 days and told every single employee in my office he 15 would kill them, all my employee can witness that. 16 Q And did he ever threaten you in person or it was 17 always by phone? 18 A Yes. He threatened me in person, went to my former 19 general manager on the site, he doesn't know she is there 20 because I need her to be a witness in case of some emergency 21 and my driver was on the other side, sitting at the other 22 table and he come to talk to me and he tell me if you don't 23 pay, you don't give me that 200,000, I am going to kill you 24 and your whole family. I know where you live, I know what 25 your Social Security number and my profession is to kill 155 1 people. 2 Q And did he tell you why he wanted $200,000 from 3 you, other than to get it? 4 A No, he said that he was under instruction by the 5 China Great Wall International Cultural Company, okay? In 6 which I already performed my service to them, they invest in 7 my company, they broke their promise and now the campaign 8 finance scandal comes up, they want me to get -- what do you 9 call -- the investment to the AISI, they want their money 10 back. 11 Q Well, what I'm trying to find out, this company, 12 China Great Wall -- 13 A International Cultural Company. 14 Q Okay. Did they help you to get money to make 15 political campaign contributions? 16 A No. No. Not that way. We have a contract between 17 the company and my company. What I want to do in 1995, which 18 is you know that I want to have my company fax broadcasting 19 service to be landed in China. 20 It sounds like they are a publishing company and it 21 sounds like that they are a good company, I can talk about 22 it, it sounds like we can cooperate, so we have official 23 company contract has been signed and provided to the 24 Department of Justice and FBI already and originally they are 25 going to invest in my company for $1 million, but obviously 156 1 they only give $200,000. The second floor of my company is 2 going to be their office, which is the office we formed, we 3 formed together. 4 And then in China, I know that the fax broadcasting 5 business is not easy. Is good business, but it's not easy to 6 land it in China. You need to have Chinese government 7 permission to send in all of the fax from the United States 8 to broadcast it in China. That's very risky for that. And 9 they wanted to know what kind of material is fax 10 broadcasting. 11 Q So when you talked to Robert Luu about Peter Chang, 12 he confirmed that somehow Peter Chang is connected with the 13 government of China. 14 MR. SUN: Objection. Misstates the testimony. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Correct it if you can, 16 Mr. Klayman. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Was that your understanding in your discussions 19 with Robert Luu, that based on those discussions with Robert 20 Luu you now understood that Peter Chang was connected with 21 the government of China? 22 A I was instructed by the FBI and Department of 23 Justice to ask all the questions and one of the questions is 24 ask him, Robert Luu, who Peter Chang is, who he work with. 25 Either way from the FBI information or from Robert Luu 157 1 conversation, I think that he working for Chinese government, 2 too, okay? But I don't know which one told me. As I told 3 you, I was under instruction. As of this particular moment, 4 I have not any good memory because I was acting. An actor 5 just reading the script to them. 6 Q So once you learned that or came to understand that 7 Peter Chang was connected with the government of China, did 8 you then think that perhaps the threats back in 1997 were 9 related to some of your activities? 10 A That I believe, yes. 11 Q With General Ji and Colonel Liu? 12 A To answer the first part, yes. The second part, 13 no. I don't think about that. The first part, yes. 14 Q What's the first part? 15 A It was under -- your question. Your question. 16 MR. SUN: I guess Mr. Chung was saying the question 17 was compound. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me finish and I'll rephrase it. 19 First we can get it out, then we can -- we just want the 20 truth. 21 THE WITNESS: Tell me one. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 23 THE WITNESS: One, two. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q So having subsequently learned in 1998 that Peter 158 1 Chang was connected with the government of China, did you 2 then think back to 1997 and to yourself and say, well maybe I 3 was being threatened not just because of China Great Wall 4 Company, but because of my involvement with the campaign 5 finance matters? 6 A That's correct. I think yes. 7 Q Okay. How is Peter Chang's last name spelled? 8 A C-h-a-n-g. 9 Q Now, you testified this morning that an Italian 10 looking person came to visit you. 11 A I never have met -- I never see him in face. 12 Q Okay. How do you know he was Italian looking? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Careful. 14 (Laughter.) 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q How do you know it wasn't Peter Chang? 17 A Good question. Good question. Thank you. 18 Somebody call me over the phone, sounds like 19 Italian-American. That kind of mafia guys when you see the 20 movie. Then when he come in, knocking the door like crazy, I 21 was under instruction by that lady FBI don't answer the door 22 and there was a second gate. The second gate is a 23 bulletproof window and everything I set it up. 24 And when the lady FBI agent ready to open the door, 25 he went to the next door, my neighbor. And that two white 159 1 gentlemen who is very intelligent guys, they doing Internet 2 business, they said that Italian-American voice, which 3 confirmed what I hear from the telephone conversation. And 4 then I say this is very serious guy with a muscle guy. So 5 when he turned back, he see the back with a weapon in the 6 pocket. That how I take it Italian-American. 7 And then also the FBI copy the license plate and so 8 I know they already questioned the gentleman and what they 9 find out, I don't know. 10 Q Has anyone told you that Peter Chang is connected 11 with this Italian-American gentleman? 12 A No. 13 Q You don't know one way or the other. 14 A I don't know one way or the other. 15 Q Okay. Now, in this article it says the transcripts 16 of these conversations that you had with Robert Luu, "copies 17 of which were obtained by the Washington Times, show that Mr. 18 Luu received instructions concerning the probe from Chinese 19 agents and relaying messages from them to Chung." Do you 20 know how the Washington Times got these transcripts? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Have you had any conversations with Mr. Seper? 25 A No. 160 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Please respond. 4 MR. SUN: He answered no. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: He didn't answer anything. 7 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, he did. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He said no. 9 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, Your Honor, give me two 10 minutes to the restroom? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Of course. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Can I ask one last question before you run? 14 A Okay. 15 Q Has your counsel had conversations with Mr. Seper, 16 do you know? 17 MR. SUN: Objection, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 19 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I'm going to ask Mr. Klayman 20 for an estimate at this juncture. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I hope we are still shooting 22 for 3:30, aren't we? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm shooting for it, Your Honor, but 24 I hope we don't take too much time in the restroom. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We'll hurry, but -- 161 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I can't guarantee to end at exactly 2 3:30. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, you know us Italian guys -- 4 (A brief recess was taken.) 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are rejoining video record, 6 beginning video cassette number 3 of volume 2, at 2:44 p.m. 7 THE WITNESS: To answer your question, he also 8 mentioned to me during that time that President Clinton is 9 going to visit China, delay, delay, delay. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q This is Robert Luu? 12 A Robert Luu. Just delay, delay, delay, until he 13 come back. Until he made a trip and come back. Do not 14 cooperate. 15 Q Did you ask him why he was telling you that? 16 A Yes, I did, but what is the answer I don't remember 17 because it was -- when I was in the studio type of office and 18 I take what I ask him and let him answer the question, I 19 always believed they got a video tape and audio tape, so I'm 20 not too worried about what is that. 21 One sentence after another sentence is being 22 scripted by the FBI and then later on they give me the 23 freedom, because if I have freedom, I can ask more question 24 that were more natural. But I don't really remember the 25 conversation, but I do know there's transcript there. 162 1 Q Now, during your conversations with Robert Luu, he 2 told you not to talk about Loral Space Communications and 3 Hughes Electronics, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q How did that come up? 6 A That -- I think that he -- the FBI give me the 7 question, ask him anything about Loral and Hughes because 8 during that period of time that was hot news and the FBI 9 scripted me a question to mention anything about Loral or 10 Hughes Space and then Robert Luu just said don't mention 11 anything about that and actually I know nothing about this, 12 but I was script -- 13 Q Scripted? 14 A Scripted by the FBI and the Department of Justice 15 to ask him the question and then he tell me that, don't tell 16 them anything about it, but he mentioned about McDonnell 17 Douglas was doing that so well and then the Chinese 18 government give them the business to do it, something like 19 that. 20 Q Did General Ji or Colonel Liu ever talk to you 21 about their involvement with space issues or communications? 22 A No. But the only thing is wrong, Ms. Liu, Liu 23 Chao-ying, her business card state China Space Company, Vice 24 President of China Space Company. You can see there's a 25 space. But too far away for me to do my business. I got 163 1 nothing to do with that. And then she was thinking about 2 doing the business with the fishery and also one of the 3 telephone equipment company wanted to lease to New York Stock 4 Exchange, if possible. We are talking about this kind of 5 business, I did not know anything about space or anything 6 talking about. I take your question as I see that on her 7 business card, China Space Company. 8 Q When you went on the China trade mission, when you 9 appeared there, the mission where Jude Kearney picked you up 10 and you met Charlie Trie and went to a couple of meetings, 11 you were aware that Loral went on that trip, correct? 12 A I did not know until I read about it in the 13 newspaper. I don't know at that time. 14 Q Do you know whether you ever met Bernard Schwartz 15 of Loral? He's the CEO, the head of it. 16 A I never met him. Could be handshake at that trip 17 in China, that American businessmen breakfast, could be, but 18 I don't know who he is. 19 Q Did Charlie Trie ever tell you that he knew Bernie 20 Schwartz and Loral? 21 A Never. Never mentioned to me. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 23 reporter to mark as Exhibit 15. 24 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 15 25 was marked for identification.) 164 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you the original so you can 2 see the color photographs, maybe not as good as your own. 3 THE WITNESS: Any time you take a picture, it's 4 good. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Of course. But it won't be worth 6 gold like yours. 7 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. I never met the gentleman. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You know which one is Bernard Schwartz, though. 10 A From the picture, obviously, on the right. 11 Q Okay. Let's show it to the camera, Exhibit 15. 12 This photograph comes from Department of Commerce 13 produced documents in this case. 14 Now, this article also says that you and Robert Luu 15 shared a secret code. 16 A He was kind of a nervous guy and I believe he was 17 scripted. And then he give me some kind of AB time or CD 18 time or whatever time, he say AB time, that mean 8:00 in the 19 evening. That kind of secret code. That's it. And then 20 another point is that he -- 21 I was under instructions and direction by the FBI 22 and the Department of Justice ask him that I need money now, 23 not today, not tomorrow, he be mentioned about money for my 24 silence, I need the money now. And then at one point, I 25 called him up and he asked me to go to his house, pick up the 165 1 money and then later on they decide not to go to his house to 2 pick up the money, they didn't want to put me at risk. And 3 then -- 4 Q Did anyone go to pick the money up? 5 A That's what I'm going to say here. 6 Q Okay. 7 A They decide later on, second option is to have 8 someone to go to pick up the money, so we need a secret code 9 which I go Beijing's too high, which means Beijing and too 10 high, okay? Beijing comma S too high. That is in Chinese 11 words. Five character there. And then okay. The gentleman 12 who I sent, I sent who will be my friend, and go pick it up. 13 Finally, they decide not to go pick it up. That was only two 14 secret code that we talked about. 15 Q Do you know whether Robert Luu has been indicted? 16 A According to the Chinese newspaper in Los Angeles, 17 he has been indicted, he has enough documentation to indict 18 him according to the source of Department of Justice, but in 19 English, I never see that in a newspaper because in Chinese 20 that was a front page -- 21 Q Has anyone said to you that perhaps a mistake was 22 made, that we're not able to prove a crime? This is from the 23 FBI. 24 A No. 25 Q Because we never went to pick the money up? 166 1 A No. 2 Q Has that struck you as perhaps strange, that they 3 didn't go to get the money? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 MR. SUN: Joined. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q The second page of this article, the third 9 paragraph, "The phone conversations began May 6, 1998 after 10 news of the inquiry first surfaced." Is that correct? Your 11 phone conversations with Robert Luu occurred around May 6, 12 1998? 13 A That's not correct. Earlier than that. 14 Q Earlier than that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And when they say the inquiry, it is correct what's 17 being referred to is the campaign finance inquiry? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And it then says "Mr. Luu told Chung that Commander 20 Li Yuan, an intelligence officer for the People's Liberation 21 Army, was concerned about Chung's plight and wanted to meet 22 with him." Is that a correct statement? 23 A Half true and half wrong. 24 Q Okay. What's true and what's wrong? 25 A The true is that Commander Li was the one that 167 1 wished me well, he will take care of me, and he is back there 2 in China. And then -- 3 Q That's the commander Li you talked about earlier. 4 A Commander Li. Yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 A And then Commander Li have a daughter, his older 7 son is a student here in United States, maybe he get a chance 8 to meet with you, the kind of polite talking, oh, yeah, yeah, 9 yeah, maybe I meet. So that was the true situation. 10 Up to today, as I told you, I never know who true 11 Commander Li is. And he didn't mention about Commander Li is 12 an intelligence officer. He did not. He said he is a 13 general during the cultural revolution, Red Army. 14 Q Going down, "At a May 13, 1998 meeting at the Los 15 Angeles Athletic Club, Mr. Luu introduced Chung to lawyer 16 David Brockway, saying he could help with his case, although 17 he private told Chung in Chinese not to tell the lawyer about 18 the Beijing connection." Is that correct? 19 A That is 80 percent correct, 20 percent not correct. 20 Q Okay. What's not correct? 21 A We talked -- I said who this guy is, he said, 22 well -- I said can we trust him? He say yeah, just say what 23 the case is. We been use him as attorney. I said you mean 24 Chinese government. He say yes, we have been using him as 25 our attorney. And then just tell him what the case about, 168 1 but don't tell him too much until I tell you that. 2 Q Do you remember you previously testified in front 3 of Congress and here that you were told that there was a high 4 ranking Justice Department official that would make sure that 5 things worked out well for you. Correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And do you now remember the name of that official? 8 A After you asked me last time, you put me in big 9 trouble. I been thinking every night and try to search in my 10 memory. There's no name, but there is a position of the 11 gentleman who I remember. 12 Q Who? 13 A There's no name, but I know the position he hold in 14 Department of Justice. 15 Q And what was that? 16 A The person who in charge of civil division. 17 Q Who was in charge at the time of this meeting in 18 Los Angeles at the Athletic Club, May 13, 1998? 19 A During the time he was the number three guy 20 Department of Justice, who was in charge of Department of 21 Justice of civil division. 22 Q On or about May 13, 1998? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And it was a man or was it a woman? 25 A There's no name mentioned about it. 169 1 Q Does the name Jamie Gorlick ring a bell? 2 A Larry, there's no name mentioned about it. There's 3 only position mentioned about it. 4 Q Okay. And -- 5 A I don't want to go through -- 6 Q Have you done any research to find out who was the 7 head of the civil division at that time? 8 A Me? 9 Q Yes. 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know of anyone who has? 12 A I don't know. But I do remember mention about the 13 position, who he or she hold it at the Department of Justice, 14 the head of civil division. 15 Q Since you've had a chance to search your memory, 16 have you remembered anything else about what Robert Luu told 17 you about the favorable treatment you were going to get from 18 the Justice Department? 19 A I will get a pardon from maybe working between two 20 high ranking government, the Chinese government, American 21 government, working for me to get an easy sentence, which I 22 don't believe, but I pretend to believe that. And then we 23 already talked to the judge about all of these undercover 24 operations, so I told you that we don't believe that they can 25 influence my sentencing judge. And so he is the top judge, 170 1 he's a good judge. 2 And also he mentioned to me two government high 3 ranking officers have been talking, negotiating and he even 4 mentioned they can release political distance, Chinese 5 political distance in order to exchange for my lighter 6 sentence. Even he suggest to me if you have to go to jail, 7 you will go to country club jail, okay? Which is like a go 8 cart jail. 9 Q Golf club. 10 A Golf club jail. And he also mentioned to me he 11 will get a pardon, a presidential pardon by the president if 12 I keep my mouth shut and then go into the jail. And he even 13 mentioned to me it will take long, delay, delay, it will take 14 long and then the case will be over, it will be taken care 15 of. And he also mentioned to me that both sides has been 16 negotiating. 17 Q Does the name Eric Holder ring a bell? 18 A No. 19 Q You don't know one way or the other? 20 A No, I read it from the newspaper, I know who he is. 21 Q Was the name used? The actual name of the person 22 used by Robert Luu -- 23 A Not Robert Luu, David Brockway. 24 Q By Mr. Brockway. Was it used by Mr. Brockway or 25 did he just say head of the civil division? 171 1 A Head of civil division. 2 Q So he didn't use the name. So other than that, you 3 have no way of knowing the name. 4 A No. I been searching all days after you asked me. 5 I did the best I can. It's difficult, you know, you sit down 6 on the couch and you think, nothing. 7 Q Did he say anything about a U.S. Attorney? 8 A Yes. He mentioned about U.S. Attorney in Los 9 Angeles, that Norma -- 10 MR. SUN: Nora Minallas? 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. And then her father was a very 12 famous law firm in Los Angeles area and they know -- they 13 know her and not particular with any other conversation. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q So Mr. Brockway said that the Americans and Chinese 16 were negotiating an exchange and they would release 17 dissidents in China in exchange for you? 18 A No. 19 MR. SUN: Did he say -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't interrupt. 21 MR. SUN: I'll object to -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask all kinds of questions to 23 clear up any misunderstanding. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could you repeat the question, 25 Mr. Klayman, please, for my sake? 172 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So Mr. Brockway said that Americans and Chinese 3 were negotiating some kind of an exchange that would result 4 in the release of dissidents in China in exchange for 5 favorable treatment to you? 6 A Not what Brockway say, that's what Robert Luu said. 7 Q Robert Luu said that. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Tell me anything else Mr. Brockway said. 10 These discussions with Mr. Brockway were around May of '98, 11 right? 12 MR. SUN: I'll have to object, Your Honor, at this 13 point, unless there's some connection between Mr. Brockway 14 and some threats, which I understand was the line of inquiry 15 that even allowed us to get into this realm, I don't see any 16 need for this further line of questioning and I would move to 17 limit -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What else did Brockway say? The meetings with 21 Brockway occurred around May of '98? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And what else did he tell you? 24 A He has another client which he been working and has 25 been quiet, been silent, and all the friend around him taking 173 1 care of him well. After the case is over and how the case 2 proceed and how the case over, how the friend has been taken 3 care of. 4 Q Who did he tell you that friend was? 5 A I don't remember the name. And also I did remember 6 the case was in Los Angeles, later on it moving to Phoenix 7 and then come back to Texas, it then come back to Los 8 Angeles. 9 And then also mentioned to me the former attorney 10 for the Watergate, Watergate scandal, and then he know 11 political issue and he -- at one point, he said to me, 12 "Johnny, you are not smart enough. You always give to the 13 Democrat." And he told me that he give some to the 14 Republican and give some to the Democrat and keep a balance. 15 Larry, that's the best knowledge I can give you. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 17 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 16. This is a report 18 by Carl Cameron of Fox News dated May 24, 1999. 19 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 16 20 was marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q At the bottom of the page, page 1, it says, 23 "A transcript of the wire tap," referring to these wire taps 24 that you've reference, "obtained by Fox News contains the 25 following: 174 1 "Luu: 'Shove the blame on the shoulders of the 2 princelings.' 3 "Chung: 'So blame it on the princelings, don't 4 implicate the Chinese government.' 5 "Luu: 'Yes. Chairman Jiang agreed to handle it 6 like this. The president over here also agreed.' 7 "Since both men were in the United States when the 8 calls occurred, those words 'the president over here also 9 agreed,' may indicate that President Clinton and China 10 President Jiang Zemin have agreed to how to spin this story 11 if it got out." 12 Is that report correct? 13 A The conversation is correct, but they say wire tap, 14 that is what I keep trying to say to you. I was scripted by 15 the FBI. I was scripted -- instructed by the Department of 16 Justice to ask what kind of question and to say what. And 17 then they are setting in front of the table like this, like a 18 studio type office. 19 The conversation is -- the first one, 20 "Shove the blame on the shoulders of the princelings," Luu 21 said that to me. I had to follow -- my instruction, just try 22 to follow whatever he say and pretend you agree with him. So 23 I said okay. "Shove the blame on the shoulders of the 24 princelings." Do not implicate to the Chinese government 25 because they always want me to mention about Chinese 175 1 government to Robert Luu and see what Robert Luu reaction is. 2 And then we hear that right here, "Yes. Chairman Jiang," 3 that's his conversation, his conversation to me. 4 Q When Robert Luu said to you, "The president over 5 here also agreed," he said that correct? 6 A He say that. Correct. 7 Q You took that to mean that both presidents, 8 American and Chinese, agreed. 9 A That's what I took. Yes. He tried to silence me 10 after that time. I mean they, that's been Robert Luu and 11 people behind him. 12 Q Look at the fourth paragraph down on that page -- 13 fifth paragraph. "Robert Luu told Chung never to tell 14 investigators about two U.S. satellite firms, Loral Space and 15 Hughes Electronics, where the relationship with Liu 16 Chao-ying, who was head of China Aerospace, the company that 17 lofts China satellites into orbit on Chinese rockets, had 18 negotiated their Chinese contracts." 19 Is that correct? 20 A Fifty-fifty. 21 Q Okay. Tell me the fifty that's correct and then 22 the fifty that's not. 23 A Okay. As I told you earlier, I was instructed and 24 scripted by the FBI and the Department of Justice how to 25 respond to questions, how to answer the question, how to 176 1 follow his question and answer the following question. 2 So as of that time, the newspaper was so hot on 3 Loral and Hughes Aircraft, dealing satellite with China, so 4 the FBI asked me to ask him this question. And pretend to 5 question Robert Luu how deep he know and how -- am I sure you 6 are sent by someone who I know back there in China. 7 Remember, I told you that I want him to give me 8 someone who behind him and finally he say Guniang, the 9 country girl. So that's why this is part of the question I 10 try to ask him. So my question to him at that time is did 11 you know anything about Loral and Hughes Aircraft and his 12 response to me is don't tell them anything about Loral and 13 Hughes Aircraft. I say who's asked you to tell me that? And 14 some way, some how, it's at that meeting that Guniang's name 15 comes up. 16 And then now I am much more clear picture who is 17 behind him. And we have some kind of fax back and forth and 18 then he then mentioned to me about Guniang is going back to 19 the countryside. She had to do everything by herself and the 20 father is ill and then something like that. And then I take 21 it the way -- I translate it, if that Guniang is Liu 22 Chao-ying, then that would make sense. 23 Q Colonel Liu? 24 A Colonel Liu. So this is what really happened 25 there. The newspaper can report something really 177 1 fifty-fifty. 2 Q And Robert Luu told you that Chinese agents were in 3 contact with Loral and Hughes, correct? 4 A No. 5 Q That didn't come up? 6 A That didn't come. 7 Q But you understood that Chinese agents based on 8 that conversation -- 9 A Chinese government have some conversation with 10 them. I don't know what it is. 11 Q Some conversation with Loral and Hughes. 12 A Yes. 13 Q And you took it to understand that Loral and Hughes 14 and the Chinese government were working together to keep 15 matters quiet. 16 A I cannot understand that because I don't know. 17 Q But that was your feeling at the time. 18 MR. SUN: Objection. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. Based on the 20 conversation. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know. Really, 23 I don't know. At that time, I don't feel anything at all. I 24 just want my family to be safe. Really. 25 I just wanted -- you see, I was under protection 178 1 and taken from my hotel back to my office and answer the 2 questions script by them and go back to my hotel. 3 Larry, I don't care how I feel that time. The most 4 important is my family and myself, the safety. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe this will help refresh your 6 recollection. Exhibit 17. 7 (Chung Deposition Exhibit No. 17 8 was marked for identification.) 9 THE WITNESS: Yesterday newspaper? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: It's actually today. 11 THE WITNESS: Today's newspaper? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. The Washington Times. 13 THE WITNESS: This is today's newspaper? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Hot off the press. First page -- 15 here. This article starts off -- it's written by Jerry Seper 16 again, "Chung Warned to Shield Loral and Hughes." 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you see that article? 19 A Yes. Yes. Yes. 20 Q It starts off, "The California businessman 21 suspected by the FBI of trying to coerce Democratic 22 fundraiser Johnny Chung's cooperation in a probe of campaign 23 finance abuses -- " 24 (Telephone ringing.) 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Hold on one second. 179 1 (Mr. Klayman speaks on telephone.) 2 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I object to this in the 3 middle of a deposition. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I agree with you, okay? There's no 5 need to be obnoxious -- 6 MS. BRASWELL: You could turn your phone off. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that necessary, Your Honor? 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, it wasn't. Let's go on, 9 please. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I agree with you. It was an 11 accident. 12 Let me start over again. I apologize. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q "The California businessman suspected by the FBI of 15 trying to coerce Democratic fundraiser Johnny Chung's 16 cooperation in a probe of campaign finance abuses warned 17 Chung against pulling two U.S. aerospace firms helpful to 18 China's missile program into the scandal. 19 "Robert Luu met Chung 20 times during a four-month 20 period in 1998, told Chung that Chinese intelligence officers 21 in Beijing regarded Loral Space and Communications and Hughes 22 Electronics as 'untouchables' and strongly suggested that he 23 not give up any information that would be disadvantageous to 24 the two." 25 That's correct, isn't it? 180 1 A That's correct. 2 Q The next paragraph -- 3 MR. SUN: Objection. I'm going to move to strike 4 the answer because I believe it was misleading, misstates the 5 testimony, particularly as it relates to -- I believe the 6 question in that second paragraph, Your Honor -- 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. No talking objections, 8 Your Honor. 9 MR. SUN: -- intelligence officers in Beijing -- I 10 don't believe there's a basis for that. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait a minute. Your Honor -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's start all over again. 13 Read the paragraph very, very carefully. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. Okay. Ninety percent correct, 15 ten percent is not correct, all except that one, the words 16 Chinese intelligence officer in Beijing. The rest of them is 17 correct. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Well, what should that be 19 corrected to read? Chinese officers in Beijing? 20 MR. SUN: I believe he's saying that -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, please -- Your Honor -- 22 MR. SUN: Mr. Klayman -- 23 MR. KLAYMAN: This is objectionable. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on just a second. 25 Mr. Chung, step out for a second. Just right 181 1 there. Just on the other side of the door. 2 (The witness was excused.) 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, what's the problem? 4 MR. SUN: Your Honor, the witness answered the 5 question, he said Chinese intelligence officers in Beijing 6 was the part of the paragraph -- 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's the ten percent that's 8 wrong. 9 MR. SUN: That's correct. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm asking him what he meant. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And he asked what would be the 12 correction. 13 MR. SUN: He asked was it Chinese officers. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I can ask that. It's a leading 15 question, granted, I'm allowed to ask a leading question. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What again did you ask him? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I just want to know what he meant 18 there. That's fine. I'll rephrase it. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Tell him to come in. 20 (The witness returned.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Mr. Chung, you say you wanted to clarify the use of 23 the word Chinese intelligence officers. What should the 24 correct wording be there? "Robert Luu, who met Chung 20 25 times during a four-month period -- " 182 1 A Chinese government. 2 Q Chinese government in Beijing? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You don't know for a fact they were Chinese 5 intelligence officers. 6 A Chinese government in Beijing. 7 Q But you think they were -- you think what he was 8 referring to was Chinese intelligence officers, but you don't 9 know for sure. 10 A I don't know for sure, but I know Chinese 11 government. 12 Q Okay. Third paragraph, "Mr. Luu, under 13 investigation on charges of witness tampering and making 14 false statements, told Chung that Chinese agents had been in 15 contact with the two firms and that any accusations of 16 wrongdoing would not be helpful." That's correct, isn't it? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And then it states, "'They are making contacts with 19 these two major companies,' Mr. Luu said during the June 24, 20 1998 meeting with Chung at his Torrance, California office. 21 'They are working helping you. They don't want to have any 22 conflicts with the other side. They are talking long-term 23 business relations.'" 24 That's correct, is it not? 25 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I'm going to object at this 183 1 point. Any questions to Mr. Chung posed about what happened 2 in those conversations, I would like to have the transcripts 3 put before Mr. Chung so he would have an opportunity to 4 review them. Otherwise -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, he can comment on the 6 correctness of this statement. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is that statement true? 9 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Reading down, "Chung was also warned not to discuss 12 any possible connection between the two companies and Liu 13 Chao-Ying, a lieutenant colonel in the People's Liberation 14 Army, and a Chinese aerospace company executive with whom 15 Chung had a business relationship." That's correct, is it 16 not? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q The next statement of Mr. Robert Luu to you, "Don't 19 mention about these two companies and their relationship -- " 20 A I'm sorry, where is it? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's the next full paragraph. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q "'Don't mention about these two companies and their 25 relationship with her,' Mr. Luu said, using Ms. Liu's 184 1 nickname, Guniang. "'Don't do something disadvantageous to 2 Guniang. It wouldn't be good for you either. As long as it 3 would be helpful for getting you out of it, then it is 4 helpful, then you protect Guniang. Isn't that the best way 5 to survive?'" 6 That was also said, was it not? 7 A Ninety percent, ten percent not. 8 Q What's the ten percent incorrect? 9 A Ten percent incorrect is the last words. That is 10 the best way to survive, okay? It says protect Guniang, they 11 willing to sacrifice Peter Chang and the other gentlemen, I 12 cannot talk about the name, in order to protect Guniang, 13 which is Lieutenant Colonel Liu Chao-Ying. That's my best 14 recollection. 15 Q But you did take these statements to be a threat to 16 you, that if you didn't comply with Robert Luu's requests, 17 that you would be retaliated against. 18 A No, he did something even better than this way. 19 Q He'd kill you. 20 A No. No. No. Chinese don't say that. He said if 21 you said it's out of control. If you keep your mouth shut, 22 you will be safe. Your family will be safe. But if you 23 talk, the situation is out of everybody's control. And I 24 will take care of your family, I'll take care of your 25 financial burden and just delay, delay, delay. 185 1 Q What did he mean by out of control? 2 A Very polite way to say if you said it, 3 everything -- if you don't say it, your family and you will 4 be saved. That's you won't be killed. If you said it, out 5 of control, the way I take it is no one can control the 6 situation and somebody will do something bad to my family and 7 me. That's very polite in Chinese style, threat none the 8 same. 9 Q Let me go back to Exhibit 14 -- 10 MR. SUN: Your Honor, for the record, we've been 11 here another two hours since the lunch break. I think now 12 Mr. Klayman has had pretty much close to nine hours of 13 examination time with Mr. Chung and I think he's been given 14 ample opportunity to inquire into matters related to the 15 Commerce Department and this litigation. 16 So based on that, Your Honor, I'm going to move at 17 this time to terminate the deposition unless Mr. Klayman has 18 some wrap-up matters that he thinks relates to the Commerce 19 Department. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not even at 3:30 yet. I'm making 21 good progress, I'm trying to make it, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Keep going. 23 I'll hear you again at 3:30. 24 MR. SUN: Thank you, Your Honor. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that the time be credited back. 186 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's credited back. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Exhibit 14, second page, third paragraph from the 5 bottom, talking about your conversations with Luu again, the 6 ones that were recorded. 7 "Mr. Luu also said Chinese agents knew a story was 8 scheduled to run the next day about a major development in 9 the campaign finance probe." 10 MR. SUN: Excuse me, Mr. Klayman. What page are 11 you referring to? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 14. Perhaps he doesn't have 13 Exhibit 14. 14 MR. SUN: 14. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go back to 14. 16 THE WITNESS: Page 2? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. The bottom. 18 THE WITNESS: Bottom. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Right -- Yes. The third paragraph 20 from the bottom. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q "Mr. Luu also said Chinese agents knew a story was 24 scheduled to run the next day about a major development in 25 the campaign finance probe. Two days later, the media 187 1 reported that the Justice Department had begun a preliminary 2 inquiry into whether political donations influenced President 3 Clinton's decision in 1996 to approve the export of satellite 4 technology to China. 5 Mr. Luu did say that Chinese agents knew a story 6 was schedule to run the next day about a major development in 7 the campaign finance probe, correct? 8 A That's correct. That's correct. I remember the 9 conversation. My question to him is I was risking my life to 10 go into that meeting, FBI told me you have a right to refuse 11 to go if you don't want to, if you feel in danger. And I say 12 I will do whatever I can to help ongoing with the 13 investigation. So I did. And then I have to tell them that 14 because the news is coming out, same day or next day. And 15 about this one, I just tell them that. 16 MR. SUN: Mr. Klayman, for the record, to assist 17 the record, I just -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to assist the record. 19 MR. SUN: Well, I think to make the record clear -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I ask -- I don't want 21 any assistance, Your Honor. 22 MR. SUN: Well, I'm going to make my record on 23 this, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead, Mr. Sun. 25 MR. SUN: We need to inquire of Mr. Chung if he's 188 1 sure whether it was Mr. Luu who said that someone knew there 2 was a story to run the next day or was it -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 4 MR. SUN: -- that you brought it up to the FBI -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: This is inappropriate and, you 6 know -- 7 MR. SUN: Well, he would have a right to have some 8 redirect. 9 Go ahead. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: He can -- 11 MR. SUN: I'm trying to help Mr. Klayman's record, 12 Your Honor. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: After I finish. You're not helping 14 my record, Your Honor, and I would ask Mr. Sun, because there 15 are going to be motions pending on various issues, I'll ask 16 this when I finish, okay? But right now, I want to take my 17 testimony. 18 Do you know, Mr. Sun -- rather Mr. Chung, whether 19 your lawyer has ever been threatened? 20 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I'm going to move my motion 21 back up here. I'm going to move again to terminate this 22 deposition. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Second. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: At this time, being overruled for 25 the time being. 189 1 Go ahead. Do you know of that? Do you have any 2 information? 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You don't know one way or the other? 6 A If he did, he will tell me but he never tell me. 7 Q He didn't tell you one way or the other? 8 A He never did tell me. 9 Q Did he ever discuss the issue with you? 10 MR. SUN: Your Honor -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's attorney-client privilege. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you know whether Mr. Sun has ever been 15 threatened by Robert Luu? 16 MR. SUN: Same objection, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 18 Do you know of that? 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You don't know one way or the other? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you know whether he's ever been threatened by 24 anyone from the government of China? 25 MR. SUN: Same objection. 190 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you know whether Mr. Sun represents any 6 individuals formerly with the Clinton administration? 7 MR. SUN: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's a rather large group. 9 What's the purpose of that inquiry, Mr. Klayman? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I mean, I'll be candid. 11 I take issue with these -- is this funny? 12 MS. BRASWELL: No, go ahead. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I've treated everybody 14 with respect here today -- 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Please go ahead. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: -- but I have a legitimate objection 17 here. My objection is that Mr. Sun interrupts my 18 testimony -- I know Your Honor is trying and you're doing a 19 very good job, keeping everybody working together, being 20 courteous, but I firmly believe, and I'm going to move the 21 Court, for information with regard to possible conflicts of 22 interest of Mr. Sun because he has not been an advocate here 23 in my view for his own client, but for someone else. 24 MR. SUN: Who is that someone else, Mr. Klayman? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know. I don't know. 191 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll take that under advisement. 2 MR. SUN: State it for the record. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I would prefer that we not do 4 that now. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll do it by motion. 6 MR. SUN: If you're going to accuse somebody, do it 7 to their face. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Sun, you'll have an 9 opportunity to respond. 10 Mr. Klayman, you will have to put that in writing. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I will. That's why I'm going to ask 12 the question, so we can learn that. That's my opinion. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to sustain the objection 14 and have you do it by motion. 15 MR. SUN: Your Honor, if I am required to respond 16 to such a motion, I'm going to ask for sanctions. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So be it. 18 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I also want to make -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think you say anything 20 right now, Mr. Chung. That's okay. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: That is my opinion and I am entitled 22 to my opinion. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. Do you have another 24 question? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm going to ask for the 192 1 information upon which we can determine that. If Your Honor 2 wishes to grant it or not, that is your choice, but I am 3 entitled to my opinion. 4 MR. SUN: Mr. Chung wanted to make a statement on 5 this issue. 6 THE WITNESS: I want to make a statement, please, 7 Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Sun has been a good attorney to 10 me and represent me well and stand behind me 200 percent. 11 Originally, I don't trust anyone -- anyone -- except two 12 judge and one attorney which is my attorney and the judge 13 here and the judge -- my sentencing judge. I hardly can 14 trust people. 15 I respect everybody and I try to give you the best 16 knowledge I know, even at a very difficult time for my family 17 and I honor Larry all the time. I try to answer the question 18 all the time. 19 But regarding Mr. Sun, my attorney, he represent me 20 well and he protect me well and go through with this with me. 21 I am broke, okay? And then he's still behind me all the 22 time. That's a man with integrity. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, what I'm saying, Mr. Sun, for 24 purposes of the record, is that I don't know -- all I know is 25 that objections have been interposed, speaking objections, 193 1 whenever there's been an important issue dealing with the 2 conduct of this administration and I've even asked questions 3 about others, but it's been interposed with an objection that 4 was a speaking objection and I wasn't allowed to ask my 5 questions, so I'm entitled to ask the Court, the Court will 6 make the ultimate decision, whether or not we can get some 7 information on this issue because if there's anyone that 8 should be moving for sanctions, Your Honor, it's us because 9 we have had our testimony interrupted repeatedly. 10 MR. SUN: Your Honor, if Mr. Klayman's insinuations 11 are that somehow I am acting at the behest of someone, 12 perhaps someone connected to the Clinton administration, my 13 response is I think that is laughable. 14 I think the record would reflect in this case and 15 in all matters connected to the campaign finance scandal that 16 the White House or the administration has been far from happy 17 from either the testimony or the statements or the positions 18 taken by clients that I have represented in this matter. So 19 the record will speak for itself in that regard. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not making any insinuations. I'm 21 just saying -- 22 MR. SUN: Well, whatever your statements were 23 intended to convey, I would state that for the record. 24 And if he chooses to bring such a motion or any 25 type of motion that goes to my integrity or that of my firm 194 1 or suggesting of some kind of secret conflict of interest, I 2 intend to seek sanctions. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Sun. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and my point is that I'm basing 5 my observations on the record, I'm basing it on the 6 objections that were made and, frankly, I don't understand 7 why with a client that has total immunity, who obviously 8 wants to be candid -- 9 And I commend you, Mr. Chung, for that; refreshing, 10 as the magistrate said. I believe that what you're doing now 11 is patriotic. I don't understand why these monkey wrenches 12 are being thrown into a case that simply is trying to get the 13 information out. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 15 MR. SUN: If you would listen to the objections, 16 Mr. Klayman, you would see that they are designed to 17 make sure Mr. Chung provides you accurate, truthful 18 testimony. 19 My latest objection went to the issue that in the 20 conversations that Mr. Luu and Mr. Chung had about the 21 newspaper story that was coming out the next day, that was a 22 story, as he told you, he was scripted or he was instructed 23 to bring it up to Mr. Luu by the FBI -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I really don't want -- 25 MR. SUN: -- before the paper article came out. 195 1 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a case in point. We are now 2 injecting testimony into the witness -- 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, he's trying to make his 4 record. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: This Court has ruled in many other 6 instances that that is inappropriate in the course of direct 7 examination and that is the basis of my complaint. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand -- 9 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm wondering why that occurs. 10 That's a question. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I'll have to decide that. 12 Mr. Klayman, are you about finished? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I have a few more questions, 14 Your Honor. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 16 THE WITNESS: Before you think about this, 17 Your Honor, I haven't finished my last statement. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's okay. I have your point, 19 Mr. Chung, and I know how you feel. I think it's okay. 20 THE WITNESS: Allow me to -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: At the end of this. At the end. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm trying to finish the testimony, 23 Mr. Chung, for now because we are going to have some issues 24 pending that we'll brief with the Court over the issue of the 25 individuals that you could not identify today. 196 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you ever give money to an entity by the name of 3 Back to Business? 4 A I did. 5 Q Yes? 6 A I did. 7 Q And tell me about that. 8 MR. SUN: Objection. Relevance, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let him lay a foundation and 10 we'll see where it's going. 11 THE WITNESS: Answer? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. 13 MR. SUN: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: After 1995 Christmas party -- that 15 was free. I was surprised. I was there. And then the next 16 day, there's a lady named Lynn Cutler from the Back to 17 Business call me up and she say Maggie Williams want me to 18 call and can I meet with you at the J.W. Marriott Hotel, 19 which my guests have always stayed there. 20 And in talking about it and show me a bunch of 21 information on Whitewater scandal issue, independent counsel 22 issue, and she mentioned to me can you donate some money to 23 the Back to Business. I say yes, but I do not know who she 24 is. Later on, I find out from CNN, she was talking to CNN, 25 and said former vice chairwoman of the DNC. And then I asked 197 1 Richard Sullivan of the DNC and he said what? He was very 2 shocked to have Lynn Cutler try to solicit the money from me. 3 I asked Maggie Williams, she say, yes, she is a 4 friend. Later on, I met with Lynn Cutler and she was 5 mentioning to me she can arrange because I am going back to 6 China again, she can arrange me to meet with the then U.S. 7 ambassador, Jim Sasser. 8 I did have the meeting with him and she also 9 introduced and set up the meeting for me for the Department 10 of Commerce, one low ranking specialist on the oil refinery 11 and that gentleman did give me good advice. If I don't know 12 any oil business, I should not get into it, otherwise I will 13 get myself in big trouble which I really appreciated that. 14 And that I give it to her, $25,000. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q So for $25,000, you got the meeting with 17 Mr. Sasser? 18 A That's a part of it. She said she can help me to 19 do something, but she didn't arrange meeting. 20 Q Now, you are aware that Back to Business later 21 became the Education Information Project. 22 A I do not know, but I do know that at that time she 23 told me that it's defense for the First Lady and the 24 President Clinton. 25 Q Defense what? 198 1 A To attack former senator of New York, the one who 2 didn't -- 3 MR. SUN: D'Amato. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In other words, what they do is they attack people 6 that attack the President and Mrs. Clinton. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Okay. And were you aware that James Carvel was 9 involved with that? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Are you aware that James Carvel is the head of the 12 Education Information Project? 13 MR. SUN: Objection. Relevance. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know whether Lanny Davis has anything to do 17 with Back to Business? 18 MR. SUN: Same objection. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q After that meeting, within a month, you asked Ms. 23 Cutler for another favor dealing with a possible opportunity 24 in the oil refining business and you wanted the advice of a 25 Commerce Department official in that regard. That's correct, 199 1 isn't it? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And Ms. Cutler arranged for a meeting? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And who did you meet with at the Commerce 6 Department? 7 A As I told you, a low ranking specialist on the oil 8 refinery business. I tried to ask him what company should I 9 contact to buy the refinery equipment, American-made, and can 10 be shipped to China because I was asked by the SINOPEC, the 11 China oil company. 12 And that gentlemen did -- I want to repeat, that 13 gentleman did tell me honestly and I really appreciate it, 14 until today, I still appreciate it, he gave me the best 15 suggestion he can. He said, "Mr. Chung, you are in fax 16 broadcasting service. If you don't know anything about oil, 17 petrochemical, don't do it because this is not your business. 18 It's a family business for decades. Don't try it." 19 Q Now, it's your belief that you got that meeting 20 with this Commerce Department official as part of the $25,000 21 that you gave. 22 A Fifty-fifty. I have to say that, fifty-fifty. I 23 give the money, then she mentioned to me if you need any help 24 in Washington, D.C. or you want to meet with Sasser. I bring 25 it up, do you know Ambassador Sasser, she said yes. I bring 200 1 out my wish list again. 2 So fifty, yes, I give -- if I don't give the money, 3 can I ask the favor? No. If I give the money, I got a favor 4 to ask and grant it? Yes. 5 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I would move to terminate the 6 deposition at this point. 7 MS. BRASWELL: I second it. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Good thing Mr. Klayman is just 9 about finished. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I am finished with the questions, 11 Your Honor, but I do -- it's my position, obviously we defer 12 to Your Honor's ultimate decision, the Court. We do have 13 more questions. I know you wanted to finish today by 3:30 14 and -- 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: How much more do you have? More 16 than the questions -- the problem we have with the Department 17 of Justice and your concerns about Mr. Sun? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: If I could just go back over my list 19 briefly? 20 (Pause.) 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I have some questions, Your Honor, 22 about documents that were produced the last time. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why don't you ask those questions? 24 Go ahead. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Thank you. 201 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q These are documents that were produced at your last 3 deposition. They are Exhibit 2. Do you see the top page? 4 That's Ms. Melinda Yee? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Letter from yourself? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Since the date of your last deposition and today, 9 have you had contact with anyone by or on behalf of Ms. 10 Melinda Yee? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you done any research into what she's 13 currently doing? 14 A No. I don't care. 15 Q The second page, this is a presidential business 16 development mission to China led by the Honorable Ronald H. 17 Brown, Secretary of Commerce, August 27 to September 3, 1994. 18 Are you pictured in this -- apparently -- you don't have that 19 in that copy. I'll see if I can substitute -- 20 A That's my camera. 21 Q This is your camera? 22 A Yes. And I don't have it. You have it. Somehow, 23 some way, somebody has it. 24 Q I've got your camera? 25 A No. I mean that picture I haven't seen for a long 202 1 time. 2 Q Are you depicted here? 3 A No, I am the one who take this shot. 4 Q Oh, you took this shot. 5 A I took this shot. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I took the shot. And this picture never come out. 8 Q This is a picture on some kind of stage. 9 A Yes. A stage. 10 Q A dias, as we call it. 11 A Yes. 12 Q Where was it taken? 13 A It's in the hotel -- that's the evening I told you 14 about. 15 Q China Great Wall? 16 A Yes. China Great Wall and say thank you and I 17 never got this picture back. 18 Q Can you identify any of the people in the picture? 19 A I think that is the minister of international trade 20 and that's Ron Brown, that's the only two people I know. 21 Q The minister of international trade of China? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Madam Wu. 24 A Yes. Madam Wu. These are my pictures. Maybe some 25 day I can get it back, you give it to me. I never get a 203 1 chance to get it back. 2 Q Have you ever met Jeffrey Garten? 3 A I am the one who took the picture. 4 Q The next document, presidential business 5 development mission to Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong. 6 A Yes. 7 Q This is materials that were provided to you in 8 China? 9 A Yes. In China. On the lunch. 10 Q You got a briefing book? 11 A Yes. On the dinner -- not really a briefing book. 12 I don't know what it is. It's a few pages. 13 Q Next page, are these pictures of you and at the 14 bottom you and Jude Kearney? 15 A Yes. 16 Q You've become better looking. The top picture -- 17 A You mean me? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Thank you. I feel much older. 20 MR. SUN: He's asking about the top picture. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q The top picture, who's in that? 23 A That's Ron Brown and the minister -- 24 Q Madam Wu? 25 A Madam Wu. 204 1 Q Okay. Next document, this is a letter from Mickey 2 Kantor, U.S. Trade Representative, to Johnny Chung. Is this 3 a letter that you received on or about April 28, 1995? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q You were being invited to join us, the U.S. Trade 6 Representative, as a member of the official U.S. delegation 7 to the first hemispheric trade and commerce forum in Denver. 8 Did you go to that? 9 A No. 10 Q When you received this letter, it was your 11 impression that you got it because you had made contributions 12 to the Democratic Party? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Next letter, July 28, 1995. It says "Thank you for 15 joining us as a member of the official U.S. delegation to the 16 western hemispheric trade and commerce forum in Denver," from 17 Ron Brown. 18 A I didn't join. 19 Q You didn't go? 20 A I didn't go. 21 Q By the way, the previous letter was from Ron Brown 22 as well as Mickey Kantor, correct? 23 A I didn't go. 24 Q All right. Next page. February 14, 1995. Did you 25 receive this letter from Ronald Brown? 205 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q It says "The Department of Commerce, through its 3 Minority Business Development Agency, is in the process of 4 implementing its new service to minority-owned businesses." 5 Did you ever ask or information about the Minority Business 6 Development Agency? 7 A Never. 8 Q Was it your impression you were getting this letter 9 because of the donations you had given to the Democratic 10 Party? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Next document, February 14, 1996, Johnny Chung from 13 Ronald Brown. Did you receive this letter from Secretary 14 Brown? 15 A Yes. 16 Q On March 18th through 20th, the second hemispheric 17 business forum will convene in Cartagena de las Indias, 18 Colombia. I encourage you to join me for this event, as it 19 will follow up the historic western hemisphere trade and 20 conference forum that Ambassador Michael Kantor and I hosted 21 in Denver, Colorado last July 1st and 2nd." Was it also your 22 impression you were being asked to go on this trip because of 23 the money you had donated to the Democratic Party? 24 I'll rephrase that. Because of the money you gave 25 to the Democrats, that's why you believe you received this 206 1 letter? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you go on this trip? 4 A No. 5 Q And attached to the letter are a number of 6 documents related to that trade trip, correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q A document checklist for forum registration -- I 9 have a document which has a little sticky on it, somehow it 10 wound up on my document as opposed to the exhibit. Mine 11 undoubtedly was the one that was ultimately produced. 12 Maybe we just went this, checklist for forum 13 registration. 14 MS. BRASWELL: It's not even in there. 15 MR. SUN: Okay. We'll copy it. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. It's copied. I guess I have 17 the original. I have the original. Copies were made in 18 chambers, if there is a further need to make -- 19 MS. BRASWELL: I don't have a copy of this. 20 MR. SUN: It's at the back -- 21 MS. BRASWELL: Well, I have this huge thing. On 22 the back end of what? 23 MR. SUN: It's part of Exhibit 2. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 25 MS. BRASWELL: We've been going through 2 and I 207 1 suddenly go from the Ron Brown, February 14, 1996, to 2 business forum preliminary program, is what I have next. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. That's where we all are. 4 Where are you, Mr. Klayman? Did you jump over 5 that? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm at the checklist for forum 7 registration. 8 MS. BRASWELL: This is not what you have. 9 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I have 5:30 plane from 10 Dulles. I don't know if we're going to be able to make it or 11 not. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. You've got to go. 13 We're going to finish up. 14 All right. You're at page -- 15 MS. BRASWELL: Do you have another copy of it? I 16 don't have that. All right. Go ahead. Go ahead. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you see the handwriting on this little sticky, 19 the Post-It note? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Is that your handwriting? 22 A No. 23 Q Whose handwriting is that? 24 A My secretary could be, my general manager could be. 25 Q Okay. It says Portia. Was that your secretary? 208 1 Is that her name? 2 A No. No. No. No. No. 3 Q Need credit card number for hotel reservation. 4 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you ever 5 went on this trip? 6 A No, I didn't go. I didn't go. 7 Q So you were considering going, I guess. 8 A Maybe my conversation with my general manager, oh, 9 maybe I go, maybe I don't, okay? And then that's why they 10 get all information ready for me. I can change my decision. 11 And I didn't go. 12 Q Next document, a June 5th letter from Melissa Moss, 13 Director, Office of Business Liaison, "Dear U.S. Delegation 14 Member: We are pleased to confirm your participation as a 15 member of the official U.S. delegation to the hemispheric 16 trade and commerce forum in Denver, Colorado on July 1 and 2, 17 1995." Did you receive this letter from Ms. Moss? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And it was your impression that you received it 20 because of the donations you made to the Democratic Party? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Did you ultimately go on this trip? 23 A No. No. 24 Q Next page, "Via Fax to Mr. Johnny Chung, Kathy 25 Kellogg, Office of Business Liaison, U.S. Department of 209 1 Commerce." You received this? This fax? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you ever have contact with a Kathy Kellogg, 4 Office of Business Liaison? 5 A Could be my general manager, I may have instructed 6 her to do something for me, but I don't remember. 7 Q When you received all of these invitations to go on 8 these Commerce Department matters, was it your impression 9 that they were trying to induce you to donate more money to 10 the Democratic Party? 11 A Yes. 12 Q The next page, June 28, 1995, to Mr. Johnny Chung 13 from Ron Brown. "I am writing to update you on the Clinton 14 administration's big emerging markets conference for chief 15 executives and government leaders in the world's fastest 16 growing markets." Did you get this? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did you participate in the big emerging markets 19 conference? 20 A No. 21 Q Turning to a letter of February 14, 1995, almost at 22 the end, three pages from the end, to Mr. Johnny Chung, from 23 Ronald H. Brown, "The Department of Commerce through its 24 Minority Business Development Agency is in the process of 25 implementing its new service to minority-owned businesses." 210 1 Is that the same letter that we previously identified? 2 A I think so. 3 Q The next letter, December 15, 1994, to Johnny Chung 4 on U.S. Department of Commerce letterhead, sincerely, Mary L. 5 Good. "President Bill Clinton and Prime Minister Yitzhak 6 Rabin announced in March of '93 their intention to create the 7 U.S./Israel Science and Technology Commission. Following 8 this announcement in January 1994, the U.S. Secretary of 9 Commerce, Ronald Brown, and Israeli Minister of Industry and 10 Trade Mika Harish, the commission co-chairmen, signed a 11 memorandum of understanding inaugurating the first meeting of 12 the commission and its joint high level panel." 13 Did you get this letter? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Was it your impression you were being invited on 16 yet another Commerce Department event? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask that this one be marked as 19 the original, Your Honor, since it has the originals and 20 apparently we had a copy. We'll ask this be marked as Chung 21 Exhibit 2. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Have you ever met an Ari Swiller? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And some of the people that you've identified 211 1 generally that you talked to where you asked to have your 2 wish list granted, remember when you said you called the DNC? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Because your wish list wasn't granted totally? 5 A Yes. 6 Q One of the people was Ari Swiller? 7 A Yes -- no. Eric Soldon -- 8 Q Eric Silden? 9 A Eric Silden. Ari Swiller is the other issue. 10 Q What issue? 11 A When I was -- the summertime of 1995, Clinton-Gore 12 1996 and then I took one extra -- two extra friend to the 13 banquet reception and Ari and also Richard Sullivan asked me 14 for additional $70,000 for pictures and that was in my 15 testimony, it's already in the news account. 16 Q What pictures at what event? 17 A There was a Clinton-Gore '96 and then I have some 18 Chinese friend wanted to take a picture with the President 19 and they would only allow two people in the private 20 reception, for two table you sponsor. But I have five. So I 21 need extra three people to get in. So they ask me if we 22 don't count you in, Johnny, we still have two more over there 23 and it will cost you more, $70,000. If you promise, we will 24 help you. 25 Q Was this an event that you previously testified in 212 1 this deposition or have you not talked about this event 2 before? 3 A I don't remember. I did testify about this so many 4 places. Your Honor, I'm confused. Congress asked me, you 5 asked me, FBI. 6 Q What time period was this? 7 A '96 -- it was -- 8 MR. SUN: I think it's a September 1995 event for 9 Clinton-Gore '96. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Is that correct? 12 A Clinton-Gore '95. 13 Q Did you get your pictures? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Pictures with the President? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Worth $70,000? 18 A No, this is -- this is the pictures -- my friend -- 19 my two extra friend want to take a picture with the 20 President. They asked me for extra $70,000. 21 Q They, Swiller and -- 22 A Richard Sullivan. 23 Q Richard Sullivan. 24 A Yes. Without -- no matter how much I already 25 donated, they want extra. 213 1 Q So to include your friend, it cost another $70,000. 2 A Yes. 3 Q And to include your friend in the pictures. 4 A Yes. With the President. 5 Q So the pictures effectively cost $70,000. 6 A They asked for extra $70,000, but I do not give it 7 to them and later on they write a letter to -- they write a 8 memo to the DNC chairman, a call list, what they call a call 9 list, and on the memo they said mention to Mr. Johnny Chung 10 he promised to donate $70,000 extra. If he doesn't pay the 11 money, some bad thing will happen. 12 Q And you took that to mean you'd be physically 13 threatened? 14 A No, I took that cut the connection, cut the 15 channel, my access. 16 MR. SUN: Mr. Chung is making reference to an 17 internal DNC document that he was never shown at the time. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q But there was no reference one way or the other 21 whether what was meant was physical threats or cutting 22 connections. 23 A No. 24 Q It just said bad things will happen. Correct? 25 A Yes. 214 1 MR. SUN: Your Honor, I have to move to terminate 2 the deposition. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Fine. Sustained. 4 MR. SUN: Thank you, Your Honor. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Thank you. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 8 (Whereupon, at 3:52 p.m., the deposition of 9 JOHNNY CHUNG was adjourned.) 10 * * * * *