IN THE DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x : JUDICIAL WATCH, : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action : No. 95-0133 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Washington, D.C Tuesday, February 9, 1999 Deposition of DONALD FOREST a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Amy K. Rose, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, 1st Floor, U.S. District Court House, Third and Constitution Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20001, commencing at 10:19 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman/General Counsel Judicial Watch 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA BRASWELL, ESQ. Assistant U.S. Attorney 555 Fourth Street, N.W., 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 WILLIAM H. KYSELLA, JR., ESQ. Office of General Counsel U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Court: HON. JOHN M. FACCIOLA, Judge Also Present: TOM FITTON, President Judicial Watch SYLVANUS HOLLEY, Videographer 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 4 FOREST DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 1 - September 9, 1994 Wall Street Journal article 61 2 - September 12, 1994 Business Week article 63 3 - Delegation list, 1994 Presidential business development mission to China 72 4 - Washington Post article 101 5 - Associated Press article by Jonathan Salant 102 6 - 1994 appointment book for John Huang 103 7 - 1995 appointment book for John Huang 103 8 - 6/16/95 court order 136 9 - DNC Managing Trustee Events and Membership Requirements List 146 10 - 5/5/94 memo from Phipps re White House activities 147 11 - Memo to Sally Painter from Conowitz and Sockowitz dated July 18, 1994 180 12 - 7/25/94 letter from McAuliffe to Moss 196 13 - 8/6/93 Painter document sent to Moss 204 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 DONALD FOREST 4 was recalled as a witness and, having previously been duly 5 sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. Forest, this is a continuation of your earlier 9 deposition and you are under oath. You realize you are still 10 under oath? 11 A Mm-hmm. Yes, I do. 12 Q When we concluded the deposition during the first 13 session, I was asking you about your notekeeping practices. 14 And just for purposes of refreshing your recollection and 15 bringing everything up to date, can you tell me whether in 16 the ordinary course of your duties at the Commerce Department 17 that from time to time you kept notes? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And what were the types of things that you kept 20 notes about? 21 A Typically, the notes would provide me with some 22 indication of follow-up action necessary as a result of 23 discussions in the meeting. 24 Q Now, you were in charge of the China desk, so to 25 speak, correct? 5 1 A Correct. 2 Q And in terms of your functions in working on 3 the China desk, you also kept notes in those functions, 4 correct? 5 A I kept notes of a variety of activities pertinent 6 to the desk, some of them with regard to meetings, some of 7 them with regard to a variety of tasks. 8 Q And who was responsible for keeping those notes, 9 for maintaining those notes? 10 A Me. 11 Q Where were they kept? 12 A The notes typically were kept in draft and then 13 usually used in the preparation of -- for instance, if I was 14 reporting on a meeting, I might do a reporting cable. 15 If, for instance, the Secretary or someone was 16 meeting with a foreign dignitary, the minister of trade, a 17 vice minister, whoever, I would take the notes, transcribe 18 them into a cable to inform my colleagues at the embassy in 19 Beijing as well as those who review cable traffic in the 20 diplomatic community, so folks in Washington as well, of what 21 transpired in the meeting. And then I would destroy the 22 notes. 23 Q Were there notes that you took while at the 24 Commerce Department that have never been destroyed? 25 A No, I discarded most of my notes. I don't 6 1 typically keep notes because they usually -- I take notes for 2 purpose of directing action following from a meeting or to 3 report in an official capacity on a meeting. 4 I do not keep a long chronicle of notebooks of 5 everything that transpires by phone, by meeting, whatever. 6 Q Well, you've said that you've discarded most of 7 your notes. I presume that some of the notes you have not 8 discarded. 9 A There could be some notes that I have in my office 10 from various meetings here and there. Yes. That's highly 11 possible. 12 Q Have you ever searched those notes in response to 13 the Judicial Watch FOIA requests which are the subject of 14 this case? 15 A Yes. 16 Q When did you search those notes? 17 A Searched everything in my possession, everything in 18 the office. I directed my staff to search everything, 19 including computer logs, buck slips, memoranda, all form of 20 draft notes and final memoranda, official documents, shortly 21 after receiving the request for searching documents. I think 22 it was shortly after the Secretary's mission. That mission 23 was in August, the end of August 1994. I recall receiving a 24 request shortly thereafter and a thorough search was done of 25 the office. 7 1 Q Between the time of our last deposition and today, 2 have you met with anyone concerning this deposition that 3 we're holding today? 4 A Met with anyone in my office or met with anyone 5 outside or -- 6 Q Anywhere. Have you discussed the deposition that 7 we're holding today with anyone since the time that we 8 postponed your deposition last time to today? 9 A I've discussed it with my superiors, informing them 10 of where I would be. I discussed it with staff. 11 Q Let's stop there. Which staff did you discuss it 12 with? 13 A I discussed it just a half ago, informed my staff 14 that I would be doing a deposition today. 15 Q Who did you have that discussion with? 16 A With my deputy. 17 Q And who is that? 18 A Cheryl McQueen. My secretary, Cheryl Anderson. 19 One of my staff people, Christie Stricker. The executive 20 assistant to the Under Secretary, Michelle O'Neill. 21 Q This was all today? 22 A Today and yesterday and the past week I have also 23 discussed it with other people. Yes. 24 Q And who else did you discuss it with over the past 25 week? 8 1 A I have informed a variety of people up the chain of 2 command. I can't recall who all of them are. It's important 3 for me to inform folks where I am. I have two vice ministers 4 coming into the department today which I am responsible for 5 coordinating input for, so I have to give a reason why I'm 6 not there. 7 Q Just who you can remember now, who did you inform 8 in the last week or so? 9 A Those are the principal people I can remember at 10 this juncture. My direct supervisor, Marjorie Serie, who is 11 the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Asia-Pacific. The acting 12 Deputy Assistant Secretary, Philip Avers, who I also informed 13 today, again, reminded him of where I would be. Deputy Under 14 Secretary Timothy Howser, because he was the acting Under 15 Secretary for a period last week and therefore had some 16 bearing on activities that would occur today, this week, 17 which I have indicated I would be responsible for. And I 18 can't think of anyone else. Those are the people that come 19 to mind. 20 Q Did you discuss with any of these people your 21 anticipated testimony here today? 22 A No. 23 Q Have you discussed your anticipated testimony with 24 anyone since the date of your first deposition? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to the extent it calls for 9 1 attorney-client privileged information. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for the substance. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He can answer yes or no. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Who was it that you discussed it with? 7 A I discussed it with my attorney. 8 Q And when did you have those discussions? 9 A Yesterday. 10 Q And how long were they? 11 A Forty-five minutes to an hour. 12 Q Was anyone else present during those discussions? 13 A Mr. Kysella. 14 Q Was any non-lawyer present during those 15 discussions? 16 A Not to my knowledge. No. There were only two 17 people in the room. 18 Q Now, just to refresh and bring everything current, 19 as head of the China desk, you were responsible for planning 20 trade missions. That was part of your duties and 21 responsibilities, correct? 22 A That's one of the duties. One of the duties. 23 Q What were the other duties and responsibilities? 24 A Well, broadly speaking, my responsibility is to 25 advise principals within the department. When I mean 10 1 principals, I mean those above me, those that are appointed 2 by the President, including from the Secretary down, the 3 Under Secretary of International Trade, and other officials 4 in the department about commercial policy towards China. 5 It's to coordinate commercial policy, to advise 6 these individuals about issues of concern to U.S. business 7 in China, including market access impediments -- or I 8 should say principally market access impediments, and to 9 formulate policy in coordination with colleagues in the 10 administration, including the State Department, the U.S. 11 Trade Representative's office, other offices that have a 12 bearing on U.S./China commercial relations. 13 Q When was the first time you know of that you 14 learned that a trade mission to China was planned? 15 A The trade mission in '94? Are you referring to 16 that mission? 17 Q Yes. In '94. 18 A Okay. I would say probably -- I remember that a 19 trade mission was being discussed earlier in the year, say, 20 June, but the final confirmation of dates really didn't occur 21 until, I would say, mid july. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me. I need five minutes. 23 Excuse me. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: We're off the record. 25 (A brief recess was taken.) 11 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q How did that initial discussion of the China trade 3 trip in 1994 occur? 4 A A little vague to me now, but as I recall, we were 5 looking for an opportunity to send the Secretary to China. 6 In general, I think, at least at Commerce, we were concerned 7 about keeping this relationship on an even keel, that by 8 sending the Secretary on a high profile mission that that 9 would substantiate the goals and objectives of the policy 10 engagement for the administration. 11 So that's how these missions typically come about. 12 Missions are, in a very pragmatic sense, the embodiment of 13 advancing the administration's policy on the commercial side. 14 That's one manifestation of advancing commercial issues with 15 China. And so, thus, that's how this came about. 16 Q What I'm interested in is who participated in the 17 discussion, the initial discussion, and where did it take 18 place. 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q Roughly speaking, who participated in the initial 21 discussion? Who did you have these conversations with? 22 A Typically, these kinds of discussions would include 23 my chain of command. That chain of command at the time was 24 Deputy Under Secretary Rothkopf, Under Secretary Garten. It 25 might include the chief of staff, Rob Stein, although I don't 12 1 recall him being in the room very often. It could include 2 Melissa Moss, who was the head of the Office of Business 3 Liaison at that time. 4 They did not include my direct supervisor, Nancy 5 Patten. They did not include John Huang. They did not 6 include Charles Meissner, who was the Assistant Secretary 7 in my chain of command responsible for my division. 8 There was a sort of China core team of individuals 9 advising on this particular mission and it included myself, 10 Deputy Under Secretary Rothkopf, and Under Secretary Garten. 11 Q Why would these discussions not have included Nancy 12 Lynn Patten, John Huang and Charles Meissner? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q You ultimately reported to Charles Meissner, 15 correct? 16 A Ultimately reported. My first line supervisor was 17 Nancy Patten. 18 Q But after Nancy Patten, the next line of 19 supervision would be John Huang, correct? 20 A Well, there's -- he was not in the direct line of 21 supervision. It was Charles Meissner. In strict terms, the 22 people who signed my performance evaluation were Nancy Patten 23 and Charles Meissner, not John Huang. If Charles Meissner 24 was not in, John Huang would often become the acting 25 Assistant Secretary. 13 1 Q As Charles Meissner's deputy, correct? 2 A That's correct. Right. 3 Q So technically speaking, John Huang was in your 4 chain of command. 5 A Only when Charles Meissner was not in the office. 6 Q Are you saying that when Charles Meissner was in 7 the office, John Huang played no role in anything that you 8 were involved in? 9 A Marginal. 10 Q What do you mean by marginal? 11 A I can remember a handful of occasions when 12 discussing China issues with John Huang actually occurred. 13 As opposed to numerous occasions, weekly, with the other 14 individuals I first mentioned. 15 Q Why is it, to the best of your knowledge, was 16 Mr. Huang only included in a handful of discussions? 17 A I can, you know, offer speculation, but I don't 18 know the reasons. 19 Q What's your speculation? 20 A There were -- well, I think there were several 21 reasons. One, there was a concern from the Under Secretary 22 at the time that we basically had a China team and we had a 23 Taiwan team. 24 The Taiwan team, I believe, in his mind, was 25 Charles Meissner and John Huang. Those who would engage 14 1 Taiwan officials, those who would travel to Taiwan, those who 2 would generally deal with Taiwan policy would be those 3 individuals. 4 Under Secretary Garten, Deputy Under Secretary 5 Rothkopf rarely dealt with Taiwan issues. Instead, they 6 dealt with China issues. I did not deal with Taiwan issues. 7 I dealt with China issues. That's one reason. 8 The other reason is John Huang's position, I 9 believe, as I understand, was one of -- it was an 10 administrative position largely. He was, as I understand it, 11 tasked with working on budget and related administrative 12 issues, including personnel, for what was the Division of 13 International Economic Policy at the time, that name has now 14 changed, under Charles Meissner's direct supervision. 15 He had counterparts in each of the other three 16 divisions. In other words, principal deputy assistant 17 secretaries. His title was principal deputy assistant 18 secretary. He had three counterparts in the other three 19 divisions who did similar things, administrative, personnel, 20 running the shop, as it were. 21 So for those reasons, Mr. Huang was not really in 22 my chain of command for all practical purposes, nor did I 23 confer with him or seek his input on critical decisions 24 before the department. 25 Q Were you aware that Mr. Huang was receiving top 15 1 secret security briefings? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Lacks foundation. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, Ms. Braswell. Would 4 you repeat your objection? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Lacks foundation. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Does the witness know if he did 7 receive such briefings? 8 THE WITNESS: I knew that he was receiving 9 briefings from the Office of Intelligence Liaison. What 10 those briefings contained, what his security clearance was, 11 I have no idea. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q How did you learn that he was receiving such 14 briefings? 15 A Typically, if I were to look at a calendar that 16 was being distributed amongst the offices, it's very much 17 common course for officials in the department to distribute 18 their calendars to line offices so they understand what 19 appointments these people have. Most officials simply bury 20 in their calendar each week an intelligence briefing. 21 I have an intelligence briefing every week. 22 My supervisor has an intelligence briefing every week. 23 The Under Secretary has an intelligence briefing every week. 24 And, thus, Mr. Huang -- that's pretty much how I would know 25 that. 16 1 Q Did you know what countries he was receiving 2 briefings on? 3 A No. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He already answered. He said no. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Now, in terms of these early meetings about the 8 China trade mission, I take it that Mr. Rothkopf, Mr. Garten, 9 Mr. Stein, Ms. Moss, that they were generally present? The 10 trade mission to China, 1994. 11 A I don't recall whether they were all present for 12 all meetings. I only recall that some subset of these 13 individuals were likely present for meetings. 14 Q Roughly speaking, how many meetings were held? 15 Just generally. 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q At least five? 18 A There could have been a number of other meetings of 19 which I was not aware. The ones I was involved in, there 20 could have been two or three or four. As the mission 21 approached, we obviously would meet with the Secretary more 22 frequently. 23 So in total, before the mission left, including 24 pre-briefs, policy discussions, meeting with industry, maybe 25 seven. That's a rough estimate. I really can't -- I think 17 1 that's -- you know -- that also includes meetings where we 2 might ask the Chinese ambassador to come in and meet with the 3 Secretary, for the Secretary to convey his priorities for his 4 mission. I am giving you the universe of meetings in which I 5 was involved with the Secretary. 6 Q Well, let's talk about the meetings where 7 Mr. Rothkopf, Mr. Garten, Mr. Stein, and Ms. Moss were 8 present. Roughly, how many would that general -- 9 A With the Secretary or without the Secretary? 10 Q Without. 11 A Without the Secretary? 12 Q Correct. Let's take it first without. Where these 13 individuals were present. 14 A There might have been -- and not necessarily all of 15 them, but some of them -- with my people in the International 16 Trade Administration the Under Secretary and the deputy Under 17 Secretary, the frequency of meetings was much greater because 18 they were my line supervisors. 19 Meetings with the Secretary's office, including 20 those and perhaps other individuals, Ginger Lew may have been 21 there -- I mean, you know, there were a lot -- there were 22 other individuals in the room, obviously. Could have been, 23 you know, eight or nine different meetings. 24 It's very typical to have trip planning meetings 25 for any trip the Secretary takes anywhere in the world. 18 1 Q And during some of these meetings, the participants 2 on the trade mission to China were discussed, correct? 3 A Well, everything relative to the mission was 4 discussed and status reports on every aspect and dimension of 5 the mission was discussed, what cities the Secretary would go 6 to and why, what themes should be emphasized, what outcomes 7 were sought, what kinds of companies might participate in 8 this mission. 9 Q And the criteria for selecting those companies was 10 also discussed? 11 A I recall discussions about the criteria of 12 selecting companies, yes. 13 Q And also discussed during these meetings was 14 whether or not certain intelligence information was necessary 15 to prepare for these trade missions? 16 A I'm sorry, I don't follow. Could you clarify your 17 question? 18 Q There were discussions in terms of what briefings 19 would be necessary from the CIA and other intelligence 20 agencies to prepare for these trade missions? 21 A Briefings for whom? 22 Q For Commerce Department employees. 23 A It's fairly typical that we would ask the agency to 24 arrange a briefing for the Secretary and senior officials of 25 the department on what was the current state of play in 19 1 U.S./China relations, what was the current state of play in 2 the Chinese economy, with Chinese industry, Chinese 3 priorities, the Chinese leadership, whatever. Yes. And, in 4 fact, while I can't recall the exact date of the agency 5 briefing, I'm sure one was done. 6 Q And it was discussed during these meetings who 7 would have access to that intelligence data inside the 8 department? 9 A Yes. At the time, my clearance was TS, top secret, 10 but it was not TS code word, so there were some briefings in 11 which I was not included because my clearance was not at the 12 right level. I now have a code word clearance, but I did not 13 at that time. 14 Q Now, you state that there were a handful of 15 discussions with John Huang present. Was that in these 16 eight or nine meetings that you've just described or 17 were those other additional meetings beyond the eight or 18 nine? 19 A No, it was not in these meetings. To my 20 recollection, it was not in any of these meetings. 21 Q Now, in these meetings, was intelligence -- 22 A I need to clarify, Mr. Klayman, if I can. There 23 were some meetings at the working level, and when I say 24 working level, the International Trade Administration level, 25 where the mission was discussed and there were 15 or 20 20 1 working level people in the room and Mr. Huang could have 2 been in the room, but I don't recall. 3 Q During these meetings, these eight or nine that 4 you've just described, various individuals had notepads, 5 correct? They were taking notes? 6 A I don't recall if they were taking notes. 7 Q You surely took a notepad to those meetings, did 8 you not? 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q Correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And you took notes during those meetings, correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Where are those notes today? 15 A As I indicated, I would often take those notes and, 16 for instance, if I created a note in the lead-up to the 17 mission, for instance, for example, where I was asked to 18 advise our embassy that the Secretary wanted to do X in X 19 city, I would take that instruction and call the embassy in 20 Beijing, likely, send a fax, whatever. But I don't -- I did 21 not hang onto those notes. I discarded them. 22 Q Was there a policy in your division to discard 23 notes? Was there a document destruction policy that you know 24 of to discard notes? 25 A There is no particular guidance to the offices as 21 1 to keeping notes, discarding notes. No. I know of no policy 2 instructing officials regarding notekeeping. 3 Q During the course of your duties and 4 responsibilities as head of the China desk, have you ever 5 stored notes in file folders? 6 A I've stored cable traffic. I have stored 7 memoranda. I have stored incoming correspondence. But, as 8 I said, I don't keep notes. I don't keep draft notes. I 9 discard them. 10 Q Who was your administrative assistant or secretary 11 during the period of planning of the first China trade 12 mission? 13 A There were two: Audrey Isaacs, who is now 14 retired -- 15 Q How is that spelled? 16 A I-s-a-a-c-s. 17 Q Does she live in the Washington, D.C. area? 18 A I believe so. 19 Q In Virginia, Maryland or the District? 20 A I think Washington. 21 Q Do you know where she lives? 22 A I do not. And Cheryl Anderson, A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n. 23 She lives, I believe, in Maryland. 24 Q Does she still work for the department? 25 A She still works in my office. 22 1 Q Still works for you? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And one or both of these individuals were in charge 4 of storing notes and correspondence and other things for you, 5 filing? 6 A They were responsible for keeping certain kinds of 7 correspondence and when I use the term correspondence, I mean 8 it broadly. Correspondence to include travel orders, to 9 include vouchers and subvouchers, to include taxi receipts, 10 to include time and attendance records. But typically, every 11 officer in my office is responsible for keeping their own 12 files. 13 We do not keep a central file cabinet of files. 14 Information is too voluminous to keep a central file. 15 Officers are responsible for keeping their files. Every 16 desk officer in my officer is responsible for keeping their 17 own and I am a desk officer for all intents and purposes. 18 Q So you kept your own files in terms of 19 recordkeeping during the period of the first China trade 20 mission? 21 A For purposes of that mission, yes. 22 Q Or did you ask any of the secretaries or 23 administrative people to file these materials for you? 24 A No. I kept my own files. 25 Q And where were those files kept? 23 1 A Kept generally in my office. If they were 2 classified files, they would be in a classified cabinet. 3 If they were unclassified, they were typically kept on my 4 desk. 5 Q Did you have a file cabinet that unclassified 6 materials were kept in? 7 A No, I keep my files either on my back credenza in a 8 sort of accordion folder or I keep my files directly on my 9 desk. I don't have extensive files of everything that occurs 10 in the office. 11 Q Who were the other people that worked with you that 12 attended these eight or nine meetings, if anyone? 13 A No one from my office -- well, I shouldn't say 14 that. Some of the meetings, the larger planning meetings 15 where there were 15 or 20 people in the room, my deputy, 16 Cheryl McQueen, would likely have attended those meetings 17 with me. But no one else from my office would have attended 18 those meetings. 19 Q And Cheryl McQueen would take notes from time to 20 time, correct? 21 A Sure. 22 Q Did you search her notes in response to Judicial 23 Watch's FOIA requests? 24 A Yes. The entire office and whatever was in the 25 possession of any officer that was responsive to Judicial 24 1 Watch's first request was instructed to the staff as well as 2 whatever it is that came out of that, we provided it and we 3 are now doing another search. 4 Q With regard to these eight or nine meetings, did 5 anyone come to these meetings with laptop computers? 6 A I don't recall. 7 Q You don't know one way or the other? 8 A I don't know one way or the other. I don't recall. 9 Q And do you know whether or not people came to 10 these meetings with tape recorders, small hand-held tape 11 recorders? 12 A I certainly saw none. If they were concealed, I 13 didn't know about it, but I knew of no one who was recording 14 any of these meetings. 15 Q Were there minutes prepared of these meetings? 16 A No. Not that I recall. I don't recall anyone 17 preparing a series of minutes that were then distributed to 18 the attendees to then be, of course, you know, put on file to 19 jog one's memory as to what was discussed in subsequent 20 meetings. 21 Q During these meetings, these were planning 22 sessions, correct? 23 A Well, they were strategy sessions. They were -- 24 from that perspective, they were planning sessions. 25 Q So consequently, wasn't it important to record what 25 1 had been accomplished and agreed on in these meetings so the 2 group could move forward in planning and strategizing about 3 the trade mission? 4 A Not necessarily, because in the initial stages of 5 any event like this, much of the discussion is focused on a 6 whole host of alternatives and it's brainstorming, for the 7 most part. I don't take extensive notes on brainstorming 8 sessions. 9 Q But you take notes? 10 A I have taken notes in order to instruct -- in order 11 to once a mission or some event comes to a stage where 12 actions need to be taken to instruct other offices within the 13 department about what direction to take. However, as I 14 mentioned, I have not -- I don't keep those notes because 15 those notes usually were transformed into some other 16 communication. 17 It was very frequent and typical that I would call 18 the embassy two, three, four times a week. In fact, many 19 days, I was on the phone with the embassy every day, 20 instructing them on every detail and specific aspect of a 21 mission. And getting feedback from them about what the 22 mission would look like, who would be involved, what kinds of 23 meetings, a whole host of things. But that's fairly typical 24 of these missions. 25 Q During these eight or nine meetings, was there ever 26 1 any national security information discussed? 2 A You'd have to clarify what you mean by national 3 security information. I don't understand. 4 Q Any classified information that was discussed 5 during these eight or nine strategy meetings. 6 A It could have been that there was a piece of 7 classified intelligence that was brought into focus in the 8 meeting. For instance, China's decision not to pursue a 9 certain project or China's decision from senior levels to 10 erect some impediment to market access. That's the only 11 classified information I can think of being discussed at 12 these meetings. 13 Q Were there ever any national security officers that 14 attended these eight or nine sessions that provided this 15 national security information? 16 A You mean from the Central Intelligence Agency or 17 NSA or -- 18 Q Central Intelligence -- yes, right. 19 A -- any of those? 20 Q Right. 21 A I don't recall anyone from those agencies being 22 represented at these meetings. 23 Q Now, if you took notes on information which was 24 part of this classified material, what procedure, if any, was 25 there at the Commerce Department to handle how those notes 27 1 were stored? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and answered. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, no. I don't think so. When 4 did he answer that? 5 MS. BRASWELL: It strikes me that the question is 6 asking him what he did with his notes. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, that's a different question. 8 The answer is if the witness was at a meeting and classified 9 information was discussed and he took notes of that, was 10 there an existing protocol as to the disposition of those 11 notes, which is, I think, a radically different question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 13 THE WITNESS: If you're asking what is the policy 14 of the department regarding discussions of classified 15 information and how those discussions were represented in 16 writing, they have to be kept in a safe. But to tell you the 17 truth, I can think of maybe three or four times in my 18 career -- or I should say in my tenure on the China desk, 19 when I have written classified cables. 20 I've written a lot of classified memoranda, but I 21 don't recall writing more than three or four classified 22 cables. Notes for that would be kept in the safe. However, 23 if I -- I would always, usually transpose those into -- or 24 transcribe those into a cable and then -- or also a 25 memorandum and then destroy the notes. Destroying as in 28 1 shredding. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, you said destroy? 3 THE WITNESS: Shred. At the time, the policy of 4 the department on destruction of classified documents was a 5 burn bag process. Now we have a shredder. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In your answers, the word 7 department is in reference to the Department of Commerce? 8 THE WITNESS: That's correct. So notes that 9 contained classified information, which were infrequent, I 10 can't recall what specific notes those might have been, were 11 certainly -- were kept in a classified container. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Was there anything in writing about how to handle 14 this classified information if committed to notes at the time 15 of these meetings? 16 A Yes. Well, not relative to the meetings, but 17 guidance relative to any departmental official in the 18 preparation of classified materials is to keep any classified 19 information in what is considered to be a classified 20 container. 21 Whether or not I decided to destroy those draft 22 notes because they were then also transcribed afterwards is 23 my decision and the department does not provide guidance in 24 that regard, as long as the notes or any information that's 25 classified is destroyed in a legitimate fashion. I can't 29 1 just tear it up and throw it in the basket. 2 Q But there's no directive to destroy it, you can 3 keep it as long as it's kept in a secured manner. 4 A You can keep classified information in a secured 5 cabinet. It's very possible to do that. Yes. 6 Q So from time to time you did take notes with 7 national security information in those notes and you kept it 8 in your safe? 9 A I don't recall whether I took any notes that had 10 classified information on them. I recall that I -- as I 11 said, preparing a number of cables during my tenure which 12 were classified. I have done lots of memoranda that are 13 classified. Whether any of the notes that I took out of 14 those meetings were classified, I don't recall. 15 Q When did you start to use a shredder as opposed to 16 a burn bag? 17 A The policy of -- I think we actually do both 18 now and I would have to seek clarification from the 19 department. I think it's possible to do both, but it's only 20 recently when offices individually have been given shredders 21 to destroy classified documents. But I know that it's also 22 possible to discard of classified documents by sending them 23 off to the burn room. So I'm not exactly sure what the 24 current policy is. I know that both are legitimate at this 25 point. 30 1 Q During the time that you've been at the Department 2 of Commerce, has there ever been a policy or protocol about 3 taking classified documents outside of the department 4 building? 5 A You're not allowed to take them outside the 6 building. I mean, I have a clearance. If I'm going to a 7 meeting at another agency, it's fairly common practice -- or 8 I'm going to a meeting at the White House in the Old 9 Executive Office Building or whatever, accompanying one of 10 our principals, it's fairly common practice to take a 11 classified briefing paper with you, whatever classified 12 attachments there are, and then to return that classified 13 material on return back to the safe. But not to take 14 classified materials certainly traveling abroad. 15 Q Since the time you've been at the department, have 16 there been any guidelines in writing as to which documents 17 you could take to meetings outside the building and which you 18 could not? 19 A There may be some guidelines. 20 Q You don't know of any? 21 A But I am not -- I should be familiar with them, 22 however, I'm following standard practice which I know is 23 allow, for those people who have security clearances involved 24 in interagency meetings, you are allowed to carry those 25 documents to the meeting and bring them back. 31 1 Q And the way you know this is through word of mouth, 2 correct? 3 A No, it's through practice. 4 Q Established practice? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q During the time that you've been at the department, 7 are you aware of any formal courses where employees are 8 taught what that standard practice is? 9 A Yes, there is a security briefing for every 10 incoming employee and there are from time to time security 11 refreshers or updates for employees as well. 12 Q When department employees take classified documents 13 out of the building, do they have to clear it with anyone? 14 Do they have to show anyone what it is they're taking out of 15 the building? 16 A No. Not to my knowledge. But I'm not a security 17 specialist. I am commenting on my practices, those of my 18 principals that I am aware of, in attending interagency 19 meetings where classified information is discussed. 20 There is certainly a prohibition on sharing 21 classified information with anyone that does not have a 22 security clearance or anyone that isn't verified to have a 23 security clearance. 24 To verify if someone has a security clearance, you 25 have to check with the security officer in the respective 32 1 agency that you're dealing with. 2 Q You are aware that in the fall of 1996, John Huang 3 was deposed in this lawsuit, correct? 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q That was October 26, 1996. You're aware it was in 6 and around that time period, correct? 7 A Roughly, yes. I'm roughly familiar with his being 8 deposed. 9 Q Are you aware of any change in security procedures 10 since that date with regard to taking classified material 11 outside of the department? 12 A I'm not aware of any. That doesn't mean to say 13 that there were not some changes in security. I don't know. 14 I don't think there have been any changes. I think the 15 department felt that the security procedures that applied 16 were sufficient. 17 Q You are aware that after John Huang worked at the 18 Commerce Department he went to work at the Democratic 19 National Committee, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And you are aware that after he began work at the 22 Democratic National Committee, from time to time he came back 23 to the department's headquarters, correct? 24 A I am not aware of that. 25 Q Did you ever see John Huang in the building after 33 1 he left the employment of the Department of Commerce? 2 Building meaning the Commerce Department building? 3 A No. But, then, again, I can't recall. I don't 4 know whether Mr. Huang had a Department of Commerce Federal 5 Credit Union account. It is often the case that former 6 officials who do have an account come back to the building to 7 access that account. If that was the reason he was in the 8 building, I would certainly have no knowledge of it. What 9 I'm saying is I don't recall him ever coming back into the 10 building. 11 Q You are aware that Mr. Huang for a period of time 12 kept his top secret security clearance that he obtained at 13 the Department of Commerce after he left and went work at the 14 Democratic National Committee? 15 A I am not aware of that. 16 Q Assuming that to be the case, do you know of 17 any prohibition of the Department of Commerce that would 18 prevent an employee from sharing classified material with 19 Mr. Huang? 20 A In general, individuals leaving the department lose 21 their security clearance. 22 Q But if you don't lose your security clearance, if 23 you keep it, do you know of any directive that says you can't 24 show them classified material? 25 A In my experience, I don't have any reference point 34 1 in my experience for that. I don't know of anyone who left 2 who also retained their security clearance after leaving. 3 Q Well, my question is not whether you knew of 4 someone who left, but given the fact that someone has a 5 security clearance and retains it after he leaves, you don't 6 know of anything in writing or anything that's been stated to 7 you orally that you can't share classified material with that 8 person, do you? 9 A Well, the only thing I know of is the security 10 procedure is that I am not allowed to share classified 11 information with individuals who do not have a security 12 clearance. 13 Q Otherwise, you can. 14 A If I know that they have a security clearance, that 15 they are actively involved, employed, otherwise dealing with 16 some U.S. Government-related issue and thus have a clearance, 17 then, yes, I would be allowed to discuss security information 18 with them. 19 Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang came back to the 20 Department of Commerce after he went to work for the DNC and 21 removed documents of any kind from the Department of 22 Commerce? 23 A I would have no knowledge of that. 24 Q Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Huang taking 25 documents from Department of Commerce across the street to 35 1 the offices of Stevens, Inc. in the Willard Hotel building at 2 lunchtime when he worked for the department? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know of anyone who does have that knowledge? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you ever heard that? 7 A No. If you're asking me did I know that he worked 8 there, I knew that he worked across the street from the 9 building, but I certainly have no knowledge whether he took 10 any documents. 11 Q How did you learn that he worked across the street? 12 A I think it was out of just sort of publicly 13 available information. It could have appeared in the 14 Washington Post, it could have appeared once these 15 depositions of Mr. Huang started. It could have been someone 16 in the department who was still left behind that was also 17 part of the Schedule C employees informing me. It could have 18 bene Mr. Meissner. 19 It could have been, you know, other individuals 20 telling me that he had since transferred and left the 21 department and was now resident in the Willard. I had 22 general knowledge of the fact that he was outside the 23 department and had an office in the vicinity. 24 Q Did you have knowledge of that at the time that he 25 was working at the department? 36 1 A No. 2 Q Did you know that he was going across the street at 3 the time he was working at the department to Stevens, Inc.? 4 A Absolutely not. 5 Q Do you know of anyone who did have that knowledge? 6 A Do I know -- 7 Q At the time he worked at the department. 8 A Do I know of anyone who could have possessed that 9 knowledge? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Or do I know of anyone who -- 12 Q Let me ask it that way. Who could have possessed 13 that knowledge. 14 A Well, you know, anybody who keeps a calendar for a 15 principal might have knowledge or should to know their 16 whereabouts. Most, if not all, people in those positions 17 have their secretaries keep calendars. 18 Q In your section of the Commerce Department, part of 19 the International Trade Administration, has there ever been a 20 procedure that if you take documents out of the department 21 you have to list what it is that you're taking out? 22 A You need to clarify what you mean by document. 23 Anything -- 24 Q Anything. 25 A A buck slip? A pad? A folder? 37 1 Q Let's start with anything. 2 A Anything? 3 Q Anything. Let's start there and then we'll narrow 4 it. 5 A No. There is no policy. 6 Q Is there a procedure for listing what you take out 7 of the department if classified? If the document is 8 classified? 9 A There are several procedures that apply to 10 receiving and to giving confidential and secret documents. 11 Those procedures relate to receipts, slips. So if you 12 receive such a document, usually the secret documents, you 13 would have a receipt that you received such a document. Is 14 there a procedure for taking the documents out of the 15 building? 16 I guess you're asking do I notify someone if I'm 17 going to a meeting at the State Department, for instance, and 18 I need a classified document to discuss for purposes of that 19 meeting, is that the question you're asking? 20 Q Correct. Or you just decide you want to take some 21 work home -- 22 A No, I would not take classified documents home. 23 Q Is there anything prohibiting you from doing that? 24 A Because I don't have a container that I can safely 25 put the materials in. I don't have a container at home to 38 1 put those materials in. 2 Q But if you did, you could do it. 3 A No. Because a domicile is not considered to be a 4 safe place for national security information. 5 Q Is that in writing? 6 A I don't know that it's in writing, but it's 7 certainly common practice. 8 Q What I'm saying is if you're taking classified 9 materials out of the department, say you're going to a 10 meeting at the White House that you described. 11 A Right. 12 Q Do you have to list on any type of a -- 13 A No. 14 Q No? A document that you're taking it out? 15 A No. I do not. 16 Q You don't know of anyone else being required to do 17 that since you've worked at the department? 18 A No. It's fairly common practice, standard 19 practice, when going to meetings, interagency, in which 20 classified information is discussed or classified memoranda 21 have been prepared for discussion at that meeting, that 22 individuals take those materials and they don't sign anything 23 when taking those materials out of the building. 24 Q Since Mr. Huang has been deposed, you don't know of 25 any change in that procedure, do you? 39 1 A I don't know of any -- it doesn't mean there isn't 2 one, I don't know of any specific procedure that applies to 3 that. You would have to ask our security office. 4 Q Did you keep a desk calendar? Have you kept a desk 5 calendar since you've worked at the China desk? 6 A My desk calendars are typically the ink pads, 7 blotters, where you write in a particular appointment or 8 whatever and I destroy them after I'm done with them. 9 Q How do the other people in your office keep their 10 schedules? 11 A To my knowledge, in a variety of ways. My deputy 12 keeps it the same way as I do. In other words, by a large 13 blotter. 14 Q Let me limit the question. Let me limit the 15 question to the people who worked with you during the period 16 leading up to and including the China trade missions. How 17 did they keep their schedules? 18 A My secretaries don't keep schedules. They never 19 kept my schedule and they never kept -- they don't keep 20 schedules for anybody in the office. 21 Q Do you know how Mr. Rothkopf kept his schedule? 22 A I would think that Mr. Rothkopf probably had a 23 calendar, but that's speculation on my part. In other words, 24 someone kept his calendar. 25 Q Mr. Garten? 40 1 A Someone kept his calendar. 2 Q Rob Stein? 3 A I would think the same. This is all speculation on 4 my part. 5 Q Melissa Moss? 6 A Possibly somebody else keeping a calendar, but, 7 again, this is speculation on my part. 8 Q You are aware that calendars and schedules are kept 9 by some Department of Commerce employees on their computer? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you know of any people leading up to these 12 Chinese trade missions and including these Chinese trade 13 missions that kept their calendars on computer that were 14 involved in the planning and strategic aspects of those 15 missions? 16 A I wouldn't know. 17 Q Do you know of anyone who kept diaries of their 18 events at the Department of Commerce with regard to trade 19 missions or anything else? 20 A Or anything else? I'm sorry, I -- 21 Q Well, let me make that question a little bit more 22 narrow. Do you know of any employees of the Department of 23 Commerce that kept diaries which recorded events in part 24 dealing with trade missions? 25 A Any trade mission or this trade mission? 41 1 Q Let's start with the Chinese trade missions. 2 A For this particular trade mission, I don't know of 3 anyone who kept a diary. That doesn't mean that someone 4 didn't, I just don't know that anyone did that. 5 Q What about for other trade missions? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 9 THE WITNESS: Other trade missions? I think I 10 would have to say that I am aware that people have kept 11 diaries, whether it was for trade missions or not, you know, 12 I am aware that people have kept diaries. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Who do you know who kept diaries? Who are those 15 people? 16 A Mr. Ginsburg. 17 Q Anyone else? 18 A No. 19 Q How did you learn that Mr. Ginsburg kept a diary? 20 A Hearsay within the department. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You said hearsay within the 22 department? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q You're talking about William Ginsburg, correct? 42 1 A That's correct. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just for a second, Mr. Klayman. 3 Sometimes the witness' voice drops and I can't hear 4 him. Are the two of you okay? 5 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please keep your voice up, okay? 7 THE WITNESS: Sorry about that. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're competing with this bloody 10 fan behind us. 11 I didn't mean to interrupt you, Mr. Klayman. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: That's all right. Thank you. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q William Ginsburg was the chief of staff to Ron 15 Brown after Rob Stein, correct? 16 A He was the chief -- that's correct. 17 Q And, as such, he did participate in the planning of 18 trade missions? 19 A He was present for a number of meetings that I 20 recall. Yes. 21 Q And he took notes at those meetings from time to 22 time? 23 A I don't recall whether he took notes. 24 Q Did he bring a diary into those meetings? 25 A I don't recall. 43 1 Q And how did you learn, you call it hearsay, that 2 Mr. Ginsburg kept a diary? Who did you hear that from? 3 A I don't recall a specific -- one individual telling 4 me that he kept a diary. I only recall in general that he 5 had kept a diary of every discussion that occurred within the 6 Secretary -- of meetings that he attended. And I don't 7 recall who told me this, in what context it was. 8 It just seemed to be at the time, and this is 9 particularly as depositions were occurring frequently, that 10 there was mention in particular of him keeping a diary. 11 Q The people who told you this showed concern that he 12 kept a diary? 13 A I think they were just basically indicating 14 factually that he had kept a diary. 15 Q Why is it did they bring this up? 16 A I don't know. I mean, that's what I recall the 17 conversation being. 18 Q Did you take the conversation to express 19 trepidation that perhaps these conversations that you were 20 having about planning trade missions were being recorded? 21 A No. No. I certainly didn't approach any of that 22 with any trepidation because at least for the discussions 23 that I was involved in there was to my knowledge nothing 24 discussed that was irregular or in my mind illegal. 25 Q How do you define irregular or illegal? 44 1 A Well, irregular, outside of the bounds of ethical 2 conduct within the department. And perhaps that also applies 3 to the legalities as well. As to what applied to me 4 professionally as a career employee ethically, I do not 5 believe that there was anything that I was involved in that 6 was unethical or illegal. 7 Q Was there ever a discussion in any of the meetings 8 that you attended in planning trade missions as to whether or 9 not the method of selecting trade mission participants was 10 illegal or legal? 11 A The way I came into discussions on selecting trade 12 mission participants was to ask -- people would ask my 13 professional opinion about this or that company, what kinds 14 of projects and interests did they have in China and what 15 were the prospects for this company in concluding this or 16 that contract and whatever. 17 So I was asked to provide factual information about 18 what I knew from the information I had about these companies. 19 That was the extent of the information that I provided on any 20 company that was being considered to be a member of this 21 mission. 22 Q Did you ever sit in in a meeting where the amount 23 of money a company or official of that company donated to a 24 political party was discussed? 25 A No. No. 45 1 Q Did you ever sit in on a meeting where there was a 2 discussion to the effect that if a company had been a 3 supporter of a political party or a candidate that that 4 company would be given some kind of preference to get on the 5 trip? 6 A No. 7 Q Was there ever any mention of politics in any of 8 these meetings? 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think you're going to have to 10 narrow that question. That would involve the Federalist 11 Papers. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Was there ever a discussion as to whether a company 15 was a friend of the Clinton administration or not and 16 therefore had a preference to go on the trip? 17 A I didn't participate in any of those discussions, 18 nor did I have any knowledge that such discussions existed. 19 Again, my dimension in these discussions was to provide -- 20 the extent of the discussions I participated in was to 21 provide professional input on these companies, what the 22 prospects were for these companies in given sectors in China 23 and the like. 24 Q Was there ever a discussion as to whether or not a 25 company or its officers had been recommended by a Republican 46 1 Senator or Congressman to go on a trip? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q Might have been? 4 A Could have been, but I don't recall. 5 Q You are aware that these companies sometimes got 6 recommendations from politicians to go on the trips, are you 7 not? 8 A When you say politicians, you mean Senators and 9 Congressmen? 10 Q Senators and Congressmen, people in the Clinton 11 administration. 12 A Well, I mean, to my knowledge, Senators and 13 Congressmen from both sides of the aisle, as well as state 14 level political officials, governors, state level senators, 15 whatever, often communicate their interest in having a 16 particular company participate in some event which can 17 possibly advance their commercial interests in China, so 18 that's not unusual. Do I know specifically of Senators and 19 Congressmen? No, I don't. 20 Q Were there ever any such discussions during these 21 meetings? 22 A Discussions of? 23 Q About a little bit of a political push from any 24 Senators or Congressmen or others to have companies go on 25 trade trips? 47 1 A I don't recall. 2 Q You can't say one way or the other? 3 A No, I can't say one way or the other. I just don't 4 recall. 5 Q Now, we've talked about these eight or nine 6 meetings. Was there a discussion during these eight or nine 7 meetings about companies that would not be allowed to go on 8 the trade missions, for whatever reason? 9 A I only recall that selection -- that the kind of 10 information that they were most interested in having in 11 making these decisions were those that I gave to you just a 12 moment ago and the prospects for recognizing this or that 13 contract. In other words, quote-unquote, deliverables, 14 outcomes. By virtue of this mission, how much can the 15 Secretary's mission garner for U.S. exports in the 16 consummation of various commercial deals? And so thus a 17 particular company's appeal might be enhanced with certain 18 kinds of commercial opportunities versus others. 19 Q There were discussions about companies that didn't 20 meet the criteria and therefore would not be likely to be 21 selected? 22 A I don't recall participating in a discussion about 23 criteria that would exclude companies. I can only recall 24 that in general what was being sought were companies that 25 could demonstrate that they had a commercial deal that could 48 1 be consummated within the timeframe of the mission that 2 generally signified some significant advance of U.S. 3 exporting, investing, whatever. 4 Q Now, you don't know of how these companies were 5 actually ultimately selected, do you? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Your Honor, I'm going to 7 object to this continued line of questioning that is not 8 focused on the creation of documents, what kind of notes were 9 taken at these meetings. 10 I've given Mr. Klayman a lot of latitude to ask 11 what was discussed at these meetings, but the discovery in 12 this case is supposed to be on what documents were created, 13 who might have created them, where they went, whether or not 14 they were destroyed, and this seems to be going far afield of 15 that. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there is -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just a minute, Mr. Klayman. 18 So your objection is that the last question was not 19 related to those documents? 20 MS. BRASWELL: That's correct. And that we've 21 given Mr. Klayman a lot of latitude to explore this and this 22 is beyond the scope of discovery in this case. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But as I understand what Mr. 24 Klayman is doing, he's going through this topic by topic and 25 asking general questions. From those questions, I assume 49 1 he's going to ask Judge Lamberth to deduce the inference that 2 because there was a discussion on a particular topic there is 3 the possibility that notes were taken of that discussion and 4 they exist somewhere. So doesn't he have to preface the 5 latter inference by ascertaining what was discussed in a 6 particular meeting? 7 MS. BRASWELL: It seems to me that's a very 8 speculative leap for him to be able to make. What he 9 has to do is find out who took notes and he can ask the 10 individuals and, in fact, has had the opportunity to 11 depose many of these people, as to what they took notes on. 12 And that's what this case is about, not, as Mr. Klayman 13 has tried to make this case, what the criteria was for 14 selecting participants on trade missions. And that's 15 clearly what -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to ask the reporter to 17 read back the question. 18 (The reporter read back the record.) 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You objected to that question? 20 MS. BRASWELL: That's my memory, is that that's 21 when I objected to the continued line of questioning. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, your objection is that 23 asking for information as to whether these particular 24 companies were or were not selected for the trade mission is 25 an inappropriate inquiry at this point because it doesn't 50 1 relate to the destruction of documents. Does it not relate, 2 however, to the creation of documents? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Mr. Klayman has asked, Your Honor, 4 who took notes at that meeting. The substance of those notes 5 and exploring the substance of those notes and why that 6 substance was discussed is not relevant to the creation of 7 notes. 8 In other words, he's certainly entitled to ask 9 who went to the meeting, who was there, who took notes, 10 what happened to those notes, what did you do with your 11 notes, but to go on and explore all of the substance that 12 was discussed at the meeting is beyond the scope of discovery 13 in this case. That doesn't deal with the creation of notes 14 and whether or not those notes were destroyed. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, Your Honor. And the Court did 17 discuss this; Your Honor makes reference to it. Judge 18 Lamberth rules in his decision of December 22nd that "This 19 may include out of necessity some inquiry into the creation 20 and handling of documents. To be able to determine whether 21 or not there are likely to be documents that were created and 22 handled, one must know what went on during these meetings to 23 be able to ascertain the substance that was likely committed 24 to writing." And this is discovery. 25 Now, we don't intend, and I agree, to get way out 51 1 here, Your Honor. We're just trying to lay a foundation. 2 That's all. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And the theory you're pursuing 4 now, Mr. Klayman, is that if during the course of the 5 discussions at the meetings there were, for example, 6 discussions of companies that should be excluded, it would 7 then follow that there was at least a theoretical 8 possibility, circumstantial evidence, that some memorandum of 9 that discussion may exist. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: That that was committed to writing. 11 And my next question after this line was going to be was 12 there anything committed to writing to that effect. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, he's already asked about 14 whether or not minutes were made of the meetings and he's 15 asked about who took notes at the meeting. It seems to me 16 that he's thoroughly explored what was written about these 17 particular meetings. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't agree with you. As I 19 understand Judge Lamberth -- and this may be a very important 20 ruling, Ms. Braswell, so let me be as clear as I can about it 21 -- I read the judge's decision on several occasions; as I 22 understand it, the three permissible topics of discovery are 23 (1) the destruction of documents, (2) the removal of 24 documents from the premises by people who may or may not have 25 bene authorized to do so, a question related to that is the 52 1 mechanism by which they were transcribed, but the third topic 2 of discovery, as I understand it, is whether there is 3 circumstantial evidence of any kind that certain documents 4 existed, and as I understand Judge Lamberth's decision, it is 5 therefore permissible to ask any witness about the meetings, 6 what the topic of the discussion was, to see if that would 7 permit the inference that some memorandum of that discussion 8 took place. 9 Am I misreading the judge's decision? 10 MS. BRASWELL: I think that's too broad, Your 11 Honor. It seems to me that the way he goes about this is to 12 find out who was at the meetings and who took notes and then 13 he can ask those individuals what notes did you take and what 14 did you do with them. It seems to me that that's how you 15 find out how documents were created. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But we also have to understand 17 that while we are on a different topic, we are still dealing 18 with the relatively broad standard for discovery under the 19 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, which is likely to lead to 20 the production of relevant evidence. 21 Is it not likely if the witness is asked what a 22 discussion was there is at least a possibility by 23 circumstantial evidence that that discussion was memorialized 24 in some way? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Well, but beyond this witness being 53 1 able to testify to what notes he took and his knowledge of 2 anyone else taking notes, it's too speculative. I mean, he's 3 got the information he needs to get to the relevant evidence, 4 which is who took notes. 5 Yes, he can ask, you know, in general terms what 6 was discussed at the meeting in terms of who -- but once he's 7 gone beyond that, to delve into it in detail I think goes far 8 beyond what the judge has allowed. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think it goes far beyond, 10 and I'm going to overrule your objection -- with the 11 understanding, Mr. Klayman, that as I understand the 12 mechanism we are in here, as Ms. Braswell I think correctly 13 points out, inquiry into what was discussed at the meetings 14 is appropriate insofar as it leads to additional inquiry as 15 to whether that was memorialized or not. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Exactly, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do we have that common 18 understanding? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. With that 21 understanding, let's proceed. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. And in fact, Your Honor 23 correctly, I believe, read the judge's orders on this where 24 he also states that the Court declines to articulate too 25 narrow a restriction on Judicial Watch's further discovery. 54 1 But that is our intent. Thank you, Your Honor. 2 I don't remember the response, so let me ask the 3 question again, if I can. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Just to get back into the framework. 6 It's faster than finding it on the tape. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You do not know of any instances, do you not, of 9 how companies were ultimately selected? 10 A Ultimately? 11 Q Yes. 12 A No. 13 Q And you did not know of any documentation 14 evidencing the ultimate selection of trade mission 15 participants? 16 A Are you saying was there a memoranda circulated as 17 to please provide your opinion and advice as to the selection 18 of these companies? 19 Q Well, let me ask -- 20 A Or some such document? 21 Q Was there such memoranda? 22 A Not that I recall. 23 Q Was there any kind of request in writing or 24 otherwise for anyone at the department to provide his or her 25 advice on how to select companies to go on trade missions? 55 1 A I'm sure there would have been various types of 2 information shared from a variety of sources, whether from 3 our foreign commercial service in Beijing or the other posts 4 in China or our industry offices, the industry sector 5 offices, about the prospects that a particular company had on 6 a particular project in a particular sector. I'm sure that 7 information was provided. 8 Whether it was provided in a single memoranda to 9 the Secretary or anyone saying here is the advice and counsel 10 of the Under Secretary's office on the companies that we 11 believe you should select based on the following criteria, I 12 do not recall the production nor was I asked to produce -- I 13 don't recall producing any such document. 14 I think communications at that time on trade 15 mission possible invitees was done on a sort of piecemeal 16 basis. In other words, as a prospect arose with a particular 17 company, should we or shouldn't we take this company, it 18 wasn't so much in that context, it wasn't should we or 19 shouldn't we take them, what are the possibilities for this 20 company on this project, what does the sector look like in 21 China, it was sort of those kinds of questions. And we would 22 along with other offices provide some input to that effect. 23 If that information was written down, I'm sure it was 24 provided in the last Judicial Watch request. 25 Q But you know of no documentation requesting formal 56 1 recommendations on who to take on trade missions going out to 2 the employees of the department? 3 A I recall providing -- that various offices provided 4 input as to what companies had particular kinds of commercial 5 prospects. Whether that information was represented in one 6 document, I don't recall. 7 I only recall that there were certainly individual 8 instances of conveying this information, whether it was via 9 fax, whether it was via e-mail, whether it was a telephone 10 conversation, whatever. But that's my recollection of how 11 companies were selected for that mission. 12 Q So what you know of is that documentation was to be 13 provided by the staff planning for these trade missions as to 14 the prospects for business deals, but there was to be no 15 actual recommendation that the company itself go on the trip? 16 A We wouldn't -- typically, I wouldn't make a 17 recommendation that said I believe the Secretary should take 18 this company. I would provide information that could 19 substantiate the decision one way or the other, but, you 20 know, we typically don't make those kinds of recommendations. 21 Q But you don't know of any department employee who 22 ever created a writing where they actually recommended that 23 companies go on trade trips? Specific companies. 24 A It could have been at the time, and I have to 25 remember now back in '94, I think our advocacy center existed 57 1 at the time. The advocacy center is a place where projects 2 in general of interest to U.S. suppliers, exporters and 3 investors, are tracked in every major market in the world and 4 typically that center is called upon at the time of admission 5 to bring together all of their pertinent relevant timely 6 information about possible project announcements so that this 7 could be used as guidance to the Secretary's office to 8 select -- not select, but to possibly consider certain 9 companies' participation in a mission. 10 The criteria for selecting companies on missions is 11 completely different now than it was back in 1994. There are 12 now new guidelines. 13 Q But you don't know of any criteria back in 1994 in 14 writing, do you? 15 A No, I don't recall any specific criteria in 16 writing. No. No. 17 Q And you don't know who it was who ultimately made 18 the selections, do you? 19 A You mean one person or a committee or both? 20 Q Okay. I'll ask it that way. 21 A No, I do not. Who ultimately made the decision, 22 either collectively or individually. I do not know. 23 Q And you don't know of any letters or other form of 24 written communication that went out of the department 25 informing companies that were not selected, correct? 58 1 A I'm not aware of communications that were sent 2 perhaps via telephone or in writing or by other means from 3 what I would assume to be the appropriate office to do that, 4 was the Office of Business Liaison. 5 Q Have you ever -- I'm sorry. Go on finish. I 6 didn't mean to interrupt. 7 A That's it. That's all I had. 8 Q Have you ever seen any writing at the department 9 that said that it was Ron Brown and then Mickey Kantor who 10 made the decisions on who went on trade missions? 11 A Did I ever see anything in writing? 12 Q Yes. 13 A To that effect? 14 Q Yes. 15 A No. 16 Q But that was common knowledge, correct? That it 17 was Ron Brown that was going to make the ultimate decision? 18 A I'm not sure how to answer that question. 19 Q Yes or no. 20 A Well, I can't just answer yes or no. I mean, it's 21 not truthful for me to answer yes or no. 22 Q Okay. How would you answer? 23 A I mean, ultimately, the decision of choosing 24 companies to go on missions, one expects a certain amount of 25 prerogative in the Office of the Secretary. 59 1 Now, as I understand the guidelines, you know, that 2 prerogative is pretty much confined and guided by written, 3 publicly available principles. And so -- we're not talking 4 about Secretary Daley, we're talking about Secretary Brown 5 here. 6 Q At the time of Secretary Brown and the trade 7 missions to China, the ones that are the subject of this 8 case -- 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. There's subject to this 10 case. There's one China trade mission that's the subject of 11 this case. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. And there are other trade 13 missions as well. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q But in terms of the Chinese trade missions that's 16 the subject of this case, did you conclude at the time that 17 it was Secretary Brown's prerogative to choose the 18 participants? 19 A Did I conclude myself? 20 Q Yes. 21 A I mean, I certainly have some doubt in my mind 22 whether it was entirely his prerogative, so I'd have to say 23 no. 24 Q Well, whose prerogative was it? 25 A Well, I mean, I have no knowledge of the pressures 60 1 that came to bear on what kinds of companies should go on 2 this mission, nor do I have knowledge of -- I'm going to say 3 pressures, the various other interests involved in insisting 4 that this company or that company go. 5 To go beyond my comments which are largely generic, 6 I have no idea whatsoever if the White House asked that a 7 particular company go. I have no idea whatsoever if another 8 cabinet member asked if a company should go. I have no idea 9 whether a Senator called the Secretary and said I would 10 really like you to take this company. 11 So when you say it was ultimately up to the 12 Secretary to decide one way or the other, I would have to say 13 that a lot of forces came to bear -- I'm assuming a lot of 14 forces came to bear on the selection of companies, and none 15 of which I was particularly privy to. 16 Q Was there ever any discussion at the time, going 17 back to the China trade mission, of what those forces might 18 be with anyone at the department? 19 A Certainly not at the career level. No. 20 Q Did you have any such discussions with people who 21 weren't at the career level? 22 A No, I did not. 23 Q Do you know of anyone who had those discussions? 24 A I do not. 25 Q Did you read reports at the time that large 61 1 political donors were going on the trade missions? 2 A You know, I could have read those reports, as a 3 matter of reading the newspaper, but I don't recall. 4 It certainly did not come to my attention in my 5 official duties at the Department that these individuals were 6 large donors or they were not large donors. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I will ask the 8 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 1 to this deposition today. 9 This is a Wall Street Journal article of September 10 9, 1994, entitled: "How Ron Brown Picks Who Joins His Trips 11 Abroad Raises Doubts. Commerce Chief Takes Along Many Big 12 Contributors to Democratic Groups. His Selling Skills Win 13 Praise." 14 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 1 was 15 marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you remember -- 18 MS. BRASWELL: May I have a copy? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Please. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you remember reading this article, or articles 23 like this, at the time? 24 A Yes. In fact, I remember this article 25 specifically. 62 1 Q This generated some discussion at the Department of 2 Commerce, this article? 3 A You'll have to clarify what you mean by discussion. 4 Q There were people at the Department who discussed 5 this article in this issue, "How Ron Brown Picks Who Joins 6 His Trips." 7 A I certainly don't remember talking with any of the 8 individuals mentioned in this article, nor my immediate 9 superiors, about the allegations made in this article, 10 particularly those pertinent to the DNC. 11 Q Did you talk with people other than your superiors 12 about this? 13 A No, not that I recall. I just, you know, I 14 probably recall, maybe to an officemate or to various other 15 individuals at my level, that such an article had come out, 16 and -- so I was acknowledging the existence of the article. 17 Q Which officemate did you talk to? 18 A It could have been Ms. McQueen. It could have been 19 several other individuals that were in my office at the time, 20 Ms. McCall, Ms. Baker. 21 You know, I -- I honestly don't recall who I would 22 have commented to about this article, or perhaps even inter- 23 agency colleagues at my level in the administration. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you another article, which 25 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 2. 63 1 It's a Business Week article of September 12, 1994, 2 the date that we filed our FOIA request with regard to the 3 China trip, entitled: "Clinton Cozies Up to Business. 4 Corporate Gifts with the DNC Reached Unprecedented Levels." 5 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 2 was 6 marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Do you remember seeing this article at the time? 9 A Mm-hmm. Yes. 10 Q Do you know of any discussions inside the 11 Department about this article? 12 A Again, it would be in the same context as this 13 article. In other words, acknowledging the existence of the 14 article with colleagues. 15 I certainly did not have any conversations as to 16 whether, in fact, what was alleged in the article was or was 17 not the case within the Department or was exercised by 18 various individuals -- in other words, seeking these 19 donations in one way or the other. 20 Q Now, it's your understanding of these articles that 21 they implied strongly that participants on trade missions 22 were selected because of campaign contributions to the 23 Democratic Party, correct? 24 A Right. 25 Q And that caused you concern at the time, didn't it? 64 1 A You would have to clarify what you mean by caused 2 me concern. 3 Q Troubled you? 4 A You know, I -- are you asking for my professional 5 career reaction to this? 6 Q Any reaction. Your reaction as a -- just a person. 7 A I regard myself as an ethical career servant 8 regardless of who is -- what party is in the White House, and 9 I was -- I felt that my actions relative to this mission, in 10 terms of what was accomplished, as well as the companies that 11 participated was done, to my knowledge, in ethical fashion. 12 So I honestly didn't make any judgments one way or 13 the other about the DNC being involved one way or the other, 14 because I had no knowledge of the DNC, nor did I, to my 15 knowledge, ever speak with any DNC operatives relative to the 16 selection of companies or the mission in general. 17 Q But you say that others at the department did know 18 of these articles, in addition to yourself? 19 A I -- as a matter of receiving the Wall Street 20 Journal and Business Week, yes, because these articles 21 typically are circulated to most officials, usually office 22 directors and above, in a daily Commerce Department news 23 brief. So that's how this stuff was circulated. That's one 24 way. But also in hard copy. 25 Q What I'm trying to get at is, were there people who 65 1 came together and discussed things, either in person or by 2 telephone or written memoranda or e-mail, that discussed 3 these articles and said: "We need to look into this. If 4 this is happening, we have to put a stop to it." 5 A Mm-hmm. Not with me. 6 Q Do you know of anyone else? 7 A No, I do not. I don't know of any convening of 8 meetings in the Department to, quote unquote, "do damage 9 control," or whatever else. It could have happened, but I 10 certainly was unaware of any such meeting, if it occurred. 11 Q You're not a lawyer, correct? No. 12 A No, I am not. 13 Q Okay. And I'm not asking this question in your 14 capacity or non-capacity as a lawyer. But, was it your 15 belief at the time of these articles that it was lawful to 16 take people on trips, trade trips, because they gave campaign 17 contributions to a political party? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for a legal 21 conclusion, Your Honor. I just want to get his state of 22 mind. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Try again. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 25 66 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Was it your state of mind that this was -- if it 3 was true what was being said in these two articles, which 4 were Exhibit 1 and 2 -- that this practice, if the articles 5 were true, was not proper? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm really at a loss to tell you sort 9 of what my emotional reaction was at the time. I don't 10 recall. 11 You know, I -- I, in my capacity as a professional 12 career servant, I look at my duties in a fashion to carry out 13 administration policy to advance U.S.-China commercial 14 relations in a way that benefits the U.S. economy. 15 Articles such as these, which are frequent on most 16 missions to China -- there's a lot of criticism about the 17 U.S.-China relationship. I guess, as a professional working 18 on China relations, I became very much used to these kinds of 19 articles. They occur today. They occur on a very regular 20 basis. 21 So, in my professional capacity, working on China, 22 I was not surprised that such an article could come out. I 23 don't really have a moral opinion one way or the other about 24 this. I'm apolitical in my perspectives on, you know, how 25 this or that party looks at participating in U.S.-China 67 1 relations. So, you know, I don't have a judgment. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So it's your position that career civil servants of 4 the Department are to execute on what they have to do but not 5 question it. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 8 MS. BRASWELL: This goes beyond discovery scope. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q I'm trying to get at, was there some kind of 12 response inside the Department about these articles? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q In writing, in documentary form? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. These came 17 in after his FOIA request was made. The FOIA request is the 18 cut-off date for any documents. He can ask about any 19 documents that were in existence or were created prior to his 20 FOIA request, but not after his FOIA request. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't come 22 in afterwards. One was September 9th of 1994 and the other 23 was September 12th of 1994. 24 MS. BRASWELL: All right. Well, anything -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: So they were actually out there, Your 68 1 Honor, at the time of our first FOIA request. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think the bottom-line question - 3 - and I'll sustain the objection -- but if the witness can, 4 to sum this up, did you see any documents of any form, 5 including written correspondence, e-mail, or anything else, 6 which related to the existence of these articles or the 7 information contained in them, while you were at the 8 Department of Commerce? 9 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 11 THE WITNESS: Let me clarify that. I said that 12 these documents were circulated. They have been circulated 13 on a daily basis within the Commerce Department in the news 14 highlights. And so did I see the documents? Yes. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But more to the point, did you see 16 a document about them, using the word "document" to 17 include -- 18 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Listen to me. Comprehensively, to 20 include correspondence and e-mail, a handwritten note -- 21 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- somebody wrote on the article, 23 "This is a problem, see me?" Do you ever remember anything 24 like that? 25 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 69 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In the course of planning the China trade mission, 4 did you ever have contact with a Bernard Schwartz of Loral 5 Corporation? 6 A In the context of planning the mission or the 7 context of the mission itself? 8 Q Planning. 9 A I -- I don't remember if the Secretary may have had 10 a meeting with Bernie Schwartz and I was involved in the 11 meeting. 12 It could have been that such a meeting occurred. 13 There were meetings with the Secretary of various companies 14 interested in participating in the mission, and I honestly 15 don't remember if he met with Bernie before -- Bernie 16 Schwartz -- before the mission and I was in that meeting, or 17 I knew about the meeting. I honestly can't recall. 18 Q Now, Bernie Schwartz was and is the CEO of Loral, 19 correct? 20 A I don't know that he -- he is still the CEO, but he 21 was the CEO. 22 Q And he went on that China trade mission in the fall 23 of '94? 24 A Correct. In the -- yes, in the summer of '94. 25 Q You had at least one meeting with Bernie Schwartz 70 1 and Secretary Brown concerning his participation, his 2 company's participation in the trade mission? 3 A I don't -- I said I didn't recall whether such a 4 meeting had occurred. 5 Q Do you think it may have occurred? 6 A It could have occurred, but I don't recall, at the 7 time. I certainly have met Bernie Schwartz. I was on the 8 mission with him. I talked to him. So I know about -- I 9 know Bernie Schwartz. 10 But I don't remember participating in a meeting. 11 I'm not saying a meeting could not have existed and I wasn't 12 there, or and I was there, but I just don't recall. 13 Q If such a meeting took place, would it have been 14 you, Bernie Schwartz, and Secretary Brown, or would there 15 have been others present, given the ordinary course of the 16 way things worked at the Department? 17 A Typically, it would have involved, certainly, Mr. 18 Rothkopf, Mr. Garten, possibly Ms. Moss, and very likely 19 myself. 20 Q Would other company executives have been present at 21 the meeting, or would it have been just Mr. Schwartz, in the 22 ordinary course? 23 A For CEO-related meetings, and again, I can't recall 24 if he met with Mr. Schwartz, but for any CEO-related meeting, 25 you would expect usually one or two other individuals to be 71 1 accompanying the CEO. 2 Who those individuals are, you know, it's typically 3 the vice president of government relations here in Washington 4 for that company, and, you know, a variety of other people. 5 Q And typically, people would take notes at those 6 meetings? 7 A Typically, people would take notes at the meeting. 8 Do I recall -- first off, I don't recall any meeting. Do I 9 recall -- It's hard to ask me if I recall anybody taking 10 notes at a meeting I don't remember. But -- 11 Q But you do recall going to meetings where corporate 12 executives and Ron Brown were present, about trade missions? 13 A Yeah, but I actually don't recall which meetings. 14 Q You do recall going to some meetings concerning the 15 China trip in '94, correct? 16 A Yes. And in fact, one -- one in particular comes 17 to mind, now. 18 Q And who is that? 19 A It was a meeting organized by the U.S.-China 20 Business Council. Now, wait a minute. This could have been 21 for the '94, but it was -- it also could have been for the 22 '96. It may have been for the '96 mission. 23 But in any event, if I'm allowed to -- I recall a 24 meeting with the vice chairman of Amoco and Michael Jordan of 25 Westinghouse. And one other CEO was there, whose name I 72 1 don't recall, but I think Robert Capp, the president of the 2 U.S.-China Business Council, was there, as well. 3 Again, I don't remember whether it was in the lead- 4 up to the '96 mission -- I'm sorry -- the '95 October trip, 5 or it was for the -- for the mission in '94. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you a document 7 which I will ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 3. 8 It's a document entitled, "Delegation List, 9 Presidential Business Development Mission to China, August 26 10 to September 3, 1994." 11 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 3 was 12 marked for identification.) 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Have you seen this document before? It bears the 15 Bates numbers 03AB3597, consists of two pages, 1 and 2, with 16 the same Bates number. 17 A Mm-hmm. Yes, I -- 18 Q You've seen that? 19 A -- am familiar with this document, yes. 20 Q Do you know who prepared this document? 21 A It could have been the Secretary's advance office. 22 And I honestly don't remember if our office had a 23 hand in some draft of this document. I don't recall. But I 24 remember specifically this document. In fact, I actually 25 think it appeared in the briefing book. 73 1 So if it appeared in the briefing book, my office 2 would have had some possession of the document. 3 Q And it lists the various participants on this trade 4 mission to China, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q In fact, you're listed as number 6 on the USGDOC 7 delegation, correct? 8 A Yes, but the number is insignificant. 9 Q The fact that you're listed as 6? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Should you be listed higher or lower? 12 A No. It's all in alphabetical order. 13 Q Now, this does document refresh your recollection 14 as to whether or not this meeting involved Michael Jordan of 15 Westinghouse -- and I to your attention to the business 16 delegation section, on Page 2 -- whether that meeting that 17 you attended with Mr. Jordan concerned this particular trade 18 mission to China, more specifically? 19 A The meeting that I -- I recall, the purpose of that 20 meeting was to talk in very general terms about U.S.-China 21 relations, U.S.-China commercial policy, the things that the 22 Secretary ought to try and achieve in his dialogue with 23 senior officials, and in general, how to strategize for this 24 mission. 25 And it was -- if I am making the right reference 74 1 here -- again, I want to be on record, it could have been 2 from '95, October '95, but it was very likely for this 3 mission -- it was to just generally talk about strategizing 4 for trade mission. And so that was the purpose. 5 Q Now, I take it that when Secretary Brown sat in on 6 this meeting -- 7 A Right. 8 Q -- that he had somebody there that was taking 9 notes for him. 10 A I don't remember who from his staff was there. It 11 could have been Ginsberg -- no -- yeah. It could have been 12 Ginsberg. It could have been -- I don't know whether Stein 13 had left by that point. I think Stein had left after, before 14 '95. I honestly don't remember who was taking any notes. 15 Q Now, it was Secretary Brown's practice to have 16 somebody in those meetings to record what was going on, 17 correct, in writing? 18 A Are you asking was there an official notetaker for 19 this meeting? 20 Q No, just whether there was somebody that was there 21 that the Secretary would have come that would keep notes of 22 what happened, so it could be recorded afterward, so there 23 could be follow-up letters, correspondence, whatever. Surely 24 he must have had somebody -- 25 A Various individuals in the meeting very likely took 75 1 notes, including myself. 2 Q But I'm asking specifically about Secretary Brown. 3 A Right. 4 Q Did you ever see Secretary Brown take notes? 5 A Yes. I often remember him writing, sometimes on 6 his briefing papers. But, you know, where those briefing 7 papers went afterwards, I don't know, because we didn't get 8 the briefing papers back afterwards. 9 Q Did he frequently have these meetings in his 10 office? 11 A This one in particular was in the conference room. 12 This was not in his office. 13 Q But he had some in his office? 14 A Sure. 15 Q Sometimes he would sit at his desk during these 16 meetings, correct? 17 A I don't remember him sitting at his desk. I always 18 remember him sitting at his chair, in the sitting area. 19 Q Did he have a conference table in his office, a 20 little one? 21 A I think he had a small table, but I don't -- I 22 don't recall. There have been several Secretaries since 23 then. 24 Q Have you ever met a Barbara Schmitz? 25 A Barbara Schmitz? 76 1 Q This was one of Secretary Brown's assistants. 2 A Yes. 3 Q She's a Caucasian American. 4 A I can't recall what she looked like. But I -- yes. 5 Q Blond hair? You remember her? 6 A Yes. 7 Q She sat in on some meetings, didn't she? 8 A I don't recall her sitting in on any of the 9 meetings with dignitaries, and I don't remember her sitting 10 in on this meeting, in particular, that I mentioned the CEOs. 11 Q But you do recall her sitting in sometimes at 12 meetings and taking notes? 13 A No, I don't recall her sitting in and taking notes. 14 I don't recall her taking notes. 15 Q Do you remember ever -- 16 A And I don't recall her sitting in on meetings. I 17 recall her, I recall knowing her. 18 Q And she sometimes communicated on behalf of the 19 Secretary with your office, correct? 20 A Communicated with other offices on behalf of the 21 Secretary relative to his schedule, his availability, and 22 other kinds of relevant information. 23 Q Did you ever meet a Melanie Long, an African- 24 American assistant of the Secretary? 25 A I could have. I don't remember her name. Of the 77 1 AfricanAmerican women that I knew in that office, there is 2 Ms. -- I think it was Ms. Hamilton who was his direct 3 assistant -- 4 Q His press secretary? 5 A -- Carol Hamilton, yeah -- Catherine Hoffman, who 6 was his special assistant, and I -- I don't remember other 7 African-Americans. 8 Q Did you ever meet or come into contact with or know 9 a Dahlia Trainum during your time at the Department of 10 Commerce? 11 A Yes. 12 Q How did you get to know Dahlia Trainum? 13 A From various -- from going to various meetings in 14 the Secretary's office. 15 Q What was her job? 16 A It has changed a number of times. I -- you know, I 17 think she was a special assistant to the Secretary. I don't 18 know specifically what her duties were. 19 Typically, the Secretary's office has a number of 20 special assistants. I -- I did not know specifically. I 21 thought it was scheduling. It could have been scheduling. 22 I'm not sure. 23 I know that she -- she's done a lot of scheduling 24 for the Secretary. 25 Q Is she still with the Department? 78 1 A I think she has just left. I was told recently 2 that she may have gone over to a different department. But I 3 believe she was there until recently, yes, and scheduling was 4 her primary responsibility. 5 Q Did Melinda Yee ever sit in on any meetings about 6 the China trade trip? 7 A She sat in the larger planning meetings in the 8 Office of the Secretary, not in his direct office, but in the 9 conference room, where weekly meetings, sometimes several 10 times a week, would be convened to discuss everything 11 -- logistics, this or that, whatever. 12 Q What did you understand Ms. Yee's job to be at the 13 time, her duties and responsibilities? 14 A She, I believe, started off as an assistant in the 15 Secretary's office, and then be came employed in the 16 International Trade Administration as a special assistant to 17 Mr Rothkopf. She worked on inter-governmental affairs for a 18 while. I understood that she was responsible for some 19 initiative dealing with California, which I was not privy to. 20 Q But you understood that she was a player in 21 planning the trade mission to China in the fall of '94, she 22 participated in that? 23 A Define what "player" means. 24 Q I just -- I'll take a little broader -- she 25 participated in that planning, because she sat in on 79 1 meetings? 2 A There were wheels within wheels within wheels. 3 Q Okay. What, if anything -- 4 A And she was in the outer wheel. 5 Q What, if anything, did she do in planning the trade 6 trip to China in the fall of '94? 7 A Planning, or actually executing -- 8 Q Planning. 9 A -- or both? 10 Q Okay. Planning. We'll get to the execution later. 11 A I think that she was -- she may have -- as I said, 12 I knew peripherally and very vaguely about some initiative 13 with the State of California in which the Secretary had a 14 special interest and concern about advancing businesses in 15 California. I believe, to my knowledge, she was from 16 California, so she was plugged into that. 17 She had come on various missions under Secretary 18 Garten, one in particular I recall. I can't remember whether 19 it was the advance mission for the Secretary's mission or it 20 was the actual mission. 21 To tell you the truth, I don't remember her 22 performing any what I would regard as substantive function 23 for these -- this mission. 24 Q Her role was primarily administrative? 25 A Yeah, but I also can't tell you what administrative 80 1 duties she was responsible for. 2 Q Ms. Yee's reputation at the Department during the 3 time of the planning of the trade mission was that she would 4 sometimes take notes of these planning sessions, correct? 5 A I don't have any knowledge of her taking notes. 6 Q You saw her taking notes, did you not? 7 A I do not recall her taking notes. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, whenever you want to 9 break for lunch -- I can go as long as you like. Whatever 10 you want. I'm fine. 11 (Discussion off the record.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Now, we described the initial eight meetings. But 14 you said there were a handful of meetings that John Huang 15 participated in. Tell us about those. What was the nature 16 of those meetings? 17 A As I recall, they were initial planning meetings in 18 perhaps Mr. Rothkopf's office, where we would have multiple 19 meetings a week to go through the logistics and planning of 20 this visit. As you can imagine, the details associated with 21 these visits are enormous. 22 Q This visit, meaning the China visit? 23 A Yes. And so having a regular update of progress on 24 the details of the visit was necessary. 25 I recall Mr. Huang attending several of those 81 1 meetings, vaguely. I don't remember exactly what dates. I 2 only remember that, as a general course at the working level, 3 he had participated in them. So. 4 Q I apologize if you have already given me this 5 response, but how many, when you say a handful? 6 A I honestly don't recall. I would have to say 7 probably less than five, probably, you know, three to five. 8 I don't remember. 9 Q Besides Mr. Garten, Mr. Rothkopf, you, and Mr. 10 Huang, was there anyone else present? 11 A Twenty -- 20 other people, probably. 12 Q Who were those people, as best you can remember. 13 A Well, all working-level people. You know, there 14 might have been my deputy -- 15 Q If Exhibit 3 helps you refresh your recollection, 16 you might turn to that. 17 A -- Ms. McQueen. Okay. There may have been my 18 deputy, Ms. McQueen. There may have been, let me see, Mr. 19 Rothkopf. Mr. Morton, who is since deceased. Perhaps Ms. 20 Patton. In fact, likely Ms. Patton. 21 Q Why likely Ms. Patton? 22 A Because she was in my chain of command. Perhaps 23 Mr. Chun, T.S. Chun. And I can't recall any other 24 individuals. 25 But they would be -- they would have represented 82 1 the Office of Public Affairs, maybe the Office of 2 Congressional Affairs, the Domestic Operations Office of the 3 U.S. and Foreign Commercial Service. And that would have 4 probably included Ms. Davenport, if I'm correct, or Mr. Herb 5 Cochran, who is now in Vietnam. And I don't remember -- I 6 don't recall other individuals. 7 There could have been a number of industry sector 8 individuals -- Ms. Sem, Debbie Sem, several others, 9 representing energy, transportation, telecommunications, 10 infrastructure sectors. 11 Q You previously testified that Mr. Huang's role was 12 administrative and budgetary, correct? 13 A To my knowledge, that's what I understood his 14 function to be. 15 Q Who told you that was his function? 16 A Nobody told me. It was generally understood that 17 the principal deputy assistant secretary for the division, as 18 well as the other three divisions in which there were 19 principal deputy assistant secretaries, were largely 20 responsible for personnel, budget, and administrative issues. 21 We were not privy, or at least I was not privy to 22 any other duties that these individuals worked on. 23 Q So given your understanding of Mr. Huang's duties 24 and responsibilities, why, to the best of your knowledge, was 25 he present at these meetings planning the trade trip to 83 1 China? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Repeat the question, if you would, 4 Mr. Klayman. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Given the fact that it was your understanding that 7 Mr. Huang's responsibilities were administrative and 8 budgetary, do you have any knowledge as to why he was present 9 at these meetings planning the trip to China? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Goes beyond the scope of 11 discovery. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, again, we have to look at the 14 context of the meeting. It could have been that Mr. Meisner 15 was out at the time, and while Mr. Meisner was invited to the 16 meeting, he was not available. That's one reason. And I 17 have stated that before. 18 I also said that, of the 20 or 30 meetings that had 19 occurred, Mr. Huang attended perhaps no more than five, 20 perhaps as few as three. So he did not attend every single 21 meeting. 22 I mean, you know, he -- I'll stand behind my 23 statement that it was peripheral to this -- to this mission. 24 At least to my knowledge, it was peripheral to this mission. 25 84 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So the bottom line is, you're not sure why he was 3 there? 4 A I can only assume he was there for the reasons that 5 I've stated, and that his frequency at these meetings -- I 6 mean, it was infrequent. So -- 7 Q Did anyone ever record the events at these 8 meetings? Were there minutes of these meetings where Huang 9 attended? 10 A I don't recall anyone actually recording minutes of 11 all the discussions. Certainly, individual officers, 12 pertinent to their area, would write notes about what kinds 13 of instructions they needed to follow up with after the 14 meeting. 15 So I don't recall whether, you know, Mr. Rothkopf's 16 assistant took extensive notes. And at the time, it was Mr. 17 Klein. I don't recall whether anyone else -- certainly, I 18 don't think there was anyone else asked to take extensive 19 notes. 20 I don't recall whether Ms. Yee was in the room. I 21 think she was probably in the room. I don't remember whether 22 she took notes. She may have taken notes. 23 Q Was there discussion of classified information 24 during some of these meetings that Huang attended? 25 A There could have been. There could have been, 85 1 depending on, you know, what particular piece of cable 2 traffic or whatever. 3 Generally, the assumption amongst people attending 4 these meetings was that most individuals had a secret 5 clearance, so that no one would be discussing top secret or 6 above. 7 Q Do you remember -- I'm sorry -- you're short on 8 time? Do you have time for one more question? 9 Do you remember seeing anything in writing, or 10 other type of recordation, discussing whether John Huang 11 should be present at these meetings where classified 12 information may have been discussed? 13 A You mean that it was necessary for him to attend, 14 or -- 15 Q Or whether he shouldn't attend? 16 A Or whether he should not attend? 17 Q Right. 18 A No, I do not. 19 Q Do you remember seeing anything in writing 20 expressing -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's two questions. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. 23 (Whereupon, at 12:22 p.m., a luncheon recess was 24 taken.) 25 86 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:51 p.m.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Forest, when we adjourned the deposition for 5 lunch, we were talking about any discussions that you had 6 had, I believe, and if I didn't ask this question, let me ask 7 it now, concerning John Huang's background. Do you recollect 8 any discussions in 1994 and 1995 with anyone with the 9 Department about Mr. Huang's background? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. It's beyond the scope. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why is that relevant, Mr. Klayman? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Just laying the foundation in terms 13 of his linkages with people who he may have had contact with 14 with regard to where documents may be currently located. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't get it. Try another 16 question. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Was there ever any discussion in the context of the 20 trade mission planning that Mr. Huang should not have been 21 present at certain meetings? 22 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Same objection. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, there's another aspect of 24 this, Ms. Braswell, and I would appreciate it if you and Mr. 25 Klayman would address yourselves to it. Judge Lamberth 87 1 discusses it several times in his opinion, the possibility 2 Mr. Huang did not tell the truth in his deposition. Is it an 3 appropriate or inappropriate inquiry during this deposition 4 to ask questions directed to whether or not certain 5 testimony of Mr. Huang was untrue. 6 MS. BRASWELL: That is not, that was not provided 7 for in the Court's order, Your Honor. The Court was very 8 specific as to this discovery would be limited and it would 9 be limited to the issue of documents that were created, that 10 documents were destroyed. Mr. Klayman is going to have an 11 opportunity to redepose Mr. Huang; but this case is not 12 supposed to be a case about whether or not Mr. Huang told the 13 truth in his deposition. 14 There will be another avenue for Mr. Klayman to try 15 and explore that if he wants. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The question becomes -- whether or 17 not Mr. Huang told the truth is related, is it not, to the 18 question of whether certain documents exist, because as I 19 understood his testimony, his testimony was that they didn't 20 exist, that he didn't know anything about them. So in that 21 context, is not Huang's knowledge of the existence of 22 documents and whether he was truthful about them an 23 admissible inquiry? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Well, it was my understanding what 25 he was being asked was whether Huang should be at meetings. 88 1 I don't understand whether or not a decision was made as to 2 whether or not Mr. Huang should be at meetings has anything 3 to do with whether he created documents or destroyed 4 documents. So, it seems to me that that's not relevant even 5 to the issue that Your Honor has proposed. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor is right in that I was 7 trying to lay the foundation to get to the questions that you 8 were, I think, interpreting that I was going to ask; but 9 whether Huang should or should not have been at meetings, it 10 dealt with the issue of whether he was a security risk and 11 whether he should have had access to information such that 12 that information which should have been produced to Judicial 13 Watch was not produced, was given to others instead. So 14 that's what I was trying to get at. Just lay a foundation 15 question. And that does bear on Huang's testimony, you know, 16 his truthfulness as to the reasons that he was at the 17 Department of Commerce. 18 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I think that is totally 19 beyond the scope. Whether or not Mr. Huang should have had 20 access to classified information is irrelevant to the 21 creation of documents or the destruction of documents. It is 22 clearly a side issue that Mr. Klayman is trying -- 23 MR. KLAYMAN: That wasn't the question I asked him. 24 MS. BRASWELL: -- to explore and discover. And 25 please don't interrupt me. 89 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please don't interrupt each other. 2 More to the point, don't interrupt me. 3 The point I understand Mr. Klayman is saying is -- 4 I don't want to put words in his mouth -- is there an 5 argument to be made, Ms. Braswell, that by virtue of this 6 gentleman's participation in meetings, some of the documents 7 as to which you have asserted a claim of privilege was more 8 improperly asserted because there was a person present at 9 this meeting that had no business seeing these documents. 10 And how could the government justify letting this gentleman 11 see the documents and not permitting other people to see 12 them, because the government, in effect, waived any claim to 13 national security. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, if that's what he's 15 exploring, there is nothing in the Court's opinion that 16 allows discovery on that issue. As to whether or not 17 exemptions were improperly claimed because somebody had 18 access to information that shouldn't have had access, the 19 Judge's opinion is clear on that issue as to where discovery 20 lies. And it is not with the assertion of exemptions. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, then in terms of the 22 permissible scope of discovery with reference to Huang's (a) 23 participation in these meetings and his access to 24 information, is it your position that both of those are 25 illegitimate inquiries? 90 1 MS. BRASWELL: He may be asked if Huang was present 2 at a meeting, because then he could ask Huang whether or not 3 he created any notes. He can ask whether -- the deponents 4 whether or not they saw Huang create any notes at the 5 meetings. 6 So, no. He can ask whether or not they were at a 7 meeting. Whether they should or shouldn't have been there is 8 irrelevant. Were they there? Did they take -- did they see 9 him take any notes? That's a permissible area of inquiry. 10 I'm sorry. I missed the second one. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The point is -- the two questions 12 are whether Huang's presence at these meetings where national 13 security/classified information was discussed, is that a 14 legitimate area during the course of these depositions? 15 MS. BRASWELL: I don't think so, because that goes 16 to the question of whether or not John Huang should have 17 access to national security information and did the Agency 18 somehow waive its right to assert exemption, (1), because of 19 his presence. None of that is covered by what the Judge said 20 was permissible discovery, which was creation of 21 documents/removal of documents. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is it permissible discovery 23 independent of Judge Lamberth's opinion? 24 MS. BRASWELL: No. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why not? 91 1 MS. BRASWELL: Well, because in order to have -- I 2 mean under the FOIA, discovery is usually not allowed, 3 anyway. So, in order for them to have any discovery into the 4 issue, they would have -- should be able to lay a foundation 5 that the Agency is improperly claiming exemptions. And there 6 is no foundation for that. And -- 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let her finish. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. I thought she was. 10 MS. BRASWELL: They would have to lay that kind of 11 foundation, come before the Court and say why they need 12 discovery because they want to try and show that the Agency 13 has waived its right to assert certain exemptions. There is 14 no foundation for that. 15 They should have to lay out exactly why they want 16 discovery on that issue and give us a reasonable opportunity 17 to respond. Not in the course here of a deposition. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, Your Honor's correct in 19 certain areas that we want to be able to get into, but even 20 before we got to that area, what I was looking to see was 21 whether there was discussion of any types of documents that 22 would fall within the purview of our FOIA requests which 23 should not have been provided to Mr. Huang by virtue of the 24 fact that he was a security risk. That's a foundation 25 question. 92 1 Secondly, whether because of these discussions that 2 Huang was a potential security risk, whether Mr. Forest may 3 have known of persons that Huang was in contact with to which 4 he may have given documents. So I'm trying to trace where 5 the documents may have wound up through asking this 6 foundation question. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I think the way I would 8 resolve this is, for your purposes, Ms. Braswell, I am going 9 to overrule the objection and I probably will memorialize 10 that in a brief opinion tomorrow, so that you could seek 11 immediate review of it by Judge Lamberth, because I think 12 this does go into an area he may not have anticipated, and 13 I'd guess on which he wishes to speak -- give you an 14 opportunity to speak and Mr. Klayman an opportunity to speak, 15 in which case we'll go forward in typical fashion of taking a 16 deposition. The question and answer would be done subject to 17 your objection being stricken, because I do think we're in an 18 area where, perhaps, additional guidance from Judge Lamberth 19 is appropriate. So proceed with your questions. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q So let me, just to be -- it's simpler if I ask the 22 question again. Were there any discussions in 1994 or 1995 23 among anyone at the Department that Mr. Huang was a security 24 risk? 25 A No. 93 1 Q Were there any discussions that Mr. Huang by virtue 2 of his past background had a conflict of interest and 3 couldn't participate in certain meetings or discussions? 4 A Not that I recall. 5 Q You're not sure one way or the other? 6 A Not that I recall. 7 Q Were there any discussions that Mr. Huang knew 8 certain individuals that were such that they caused concern 9 to the Department of Commerce? 10 A No. 11 Q Was there any discussion that John Huang having 12 come from Lippo Group, which had significant holdings in 13 China, should not be provided certain documents? I'm getting 14 a little narrower here. 15 A I don't recall being part of any of those 16 conversations. 17 Q Were there any discussions about Lippo Group's 18 holdings in the Chinese arms industry? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. That goes 20 well beyond even John Huang. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Were there any discussions that Mr. Huang -- strike 24 that. 25 Do you know whether Mr. Huang had meetings during 94 1 the time he worked in your division at the Chinese embassy? 2 A I have knowledge of the fact that he has met with 3 officials of the Chinese embassy. Yeah, I have knowledge of 4 that fact, yes. 5 Q How did you obtain that knowledge? 6 A Largely as a result of being shown his, his 7 calendar. 8 Q When were you shown his calendar? 9 A As I recall, I believe I was asked to review his 10 calendar when I was asked to come to the Hill and talk with 11 Senator Thompson's committee on investigating this issue. 12 Several attorneys representing the committee -- this is my 13 recollection. I do remember looking at the logs. I can't 14 recall whether it was in that context or another context, but 15 I recall seeing specifically I think Li Daoyu's name was on 16 the logs, and that's the Chinese ambassador. That was the 17 Chinese ambassador at the time. That's what I recall. But I 18 do not -- I was never asked, "Please provide me a briefing 19 paper because I'm going over to see the Chinese embassy," nor 20 was I included in any of those meetings nor apprised of them 21 beforehand. 22 Q At the time that Mr. Huang worked at the Department 23 of Commerce, were you aware that he was meeting with Chinese 24 embassy officials? 25 A I don't recall whether he told me on occasion that 95 1 he had lunch or he had breakfast or he saw Ambassador Li or 2 saw some officials here and there, I honestly don't recall if 3 he told me that. I don't recall that. 4 Q Do you remember whether anyone else told you he was 5 meeting with Chinese officials? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you know whether or not anyone sought to learn 8 of Mr. Huang taking documents from the Commerce Department to 9 the Chinese embassy? 10 A I don't have any knowledge of Mr. Huang taking 11 documents to the Chinese embassy. 12 Q But do you know whether anyone looked into whether 13 or not, in fact, he was removing documents and giving them to 14 the Chinese? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you ever see Mr. Huang leave the Department of 17 Commerce with a briefcase in the evening? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. During what period? 19 Ever? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: During any period he was at the 21 Department. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: When he was employed at the 23 Department of Commerce, what is the period of time that's at 24 issue between -- in this particular phase of the lawsuit? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: He was there from 1994 to sometime in 96 1 1995. I don't have the specific dates off the top of my 2 head. 3 MS. BRASWELL: And, Your Honor, this particular 4 lawsuit, the requests that were made that deal certainly with 5 the China trade mission were in September of 1994. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That's true, Your Honor; but, of 7 course, he could have removed documents that pertained to our 8 FOIA request after the fact. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you ever see him leave during 10 the period of time that he worked at the Department of 11 Commerce? Did you ever see him leave the building with a 12 briefcase? 13 THE WITNESS: I saw him walk from his office to 14 what I would assume to be was to go to the elevator and the 15 Commerce parking lot to his car with a briefcase. When I saw 16 him do this, I can't recall. The 3rd floor where the 17 International Trade Administration is located is a frequented 18 hallway, so it's not unusual for me to see him there in 19 passing, as I was conducting other business with other 20 principals in the Department. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q What kind of a briefcase did he have? 23 A I, I honestly don't remember. 24 Q What was the size? Perhaps you could just show us 25 visually. 97 1 A I, you know -- I honestly don't recall. You know, 2 I mean I -- it could have been, you know, it could have been 3 a leather briefcase, but I really don't remember what kind, 4 what color, what size. I only remember that, you know, that 5 I've seen him leaving his office with a briefcase. 6 Q Jude Kearney, you know who he is; correct? 7 A Yes, right. 8 Q And Jude Kearney did participate in planning trade 9 missions; correct? 10 A Are you asking me was I in the presence of Jude 11 Kearney for any of these meetings? 12 Q No. 13 A Or you're asking me a question -- 14 Q I just asked you simply, Jude Kearney did 15 participate in planning trade missions generally speaking. 16 A Jude Kearney was not a part of discussions in Under 17 Secretary Garten's office or Deputy Under Secretary 18 Rothkoff's office. 19 Q I appreciate that, but that was not my question. 20 You are aware that he did participate in planning trade 21 missions generally. 22 A He would have had to approach the Secretary's 23 office separately. I recall him being in perhaps several 24 working level planning meetings, but I don't recall him being 25 in a meeting with Office of the Secretary personnel on this 98 1 mission. 2 Q Well, for instance, on Exhibit 3, Mr. Kearney is 3 listed as part of the delegation on the China mission; 4 correct? 5 A Right. 6 Q So he did participate in the China mission. 7 A Correct. 8 Q At issue in this case? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And what did he do with regard to the China 11 mission? This particular one. 12 A Participated in various bilateral meetings, various 13 industry meetings in China. But as far as his specific 14 function on the mission, he certainly was not -- I mean to my 15 knowledge, he wasn't advising the Secretary on policy issues 16 on a regular basis during this trip. 17 Q Did he participate in any activities leading up to 18 the China trade mission relating to that China trade mission? 19 A Perhaps several planning meetings at the, you know, 20 ITA, International Trade Administration level; but I honestly 21 don't recall his participation in the Office of the 22 Secretary. 23 Q Did you ever meet a Charlie Trie? 24 A No. 25 Q T-r-i-e? 99 1 A No. 2 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Mr. 3 Kearney had contact with Charlie Trie when Mr. Kearney 4 worked for the Department of Commerce? 5 A No, I do not have any knowledge of Mr. Kearney's 6 contact with Mr. Trie. 7 Q Do you know who Mr. Trie is? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Mr. 10 Trie was in Mr. Kearney's office when he had classified 11 information in that office? 12 A I have absolutely no knowledge of that. 13 Q Have you ever seen any written communications at 14 Department of Commerce discussing Charlie Trie? 15 A The only written communications I would have seen, 16 as I recall, on Charlie Trie would have been in response to 17 FOIA requests. I don't recall any other time when I would 18 have seen something regarding Charlie Trie. 19 Q You are aware that Charlie Trie did participate in 20 the subject trade mission to China, the one that's part of 21 this case, in the fall of '94? 22 A He's not on the delegation list. 23 Q You are aware that he appeared in China on his own? 24 A I was not involved in any of those meetings. 25 Q But do you have knowledge that, in fact, Mr. Trie 100 1 did participate? 2 A No. 3 Q You never saw him while you were in China? 4 A I did not. 5 Q Did anyone ever talk about him while you were in 6 China? 7 A Not to my recollection. 8 Q Do you know whether or not Johnny Chung -- you know 9 who Johnny Chung is; correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Have you ever met Johnny Chung? 12 A Not that I recall. 13 Q You may have, you just can't recall today? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Do you have reason to believe you may have met him? 16 A It could be. I mean I -- you know, I just don't 17 recall. 18 Q Have you ever seen any documentation at the 19 Department of Commerce concerning Johnny Chung? 20 A I don't -- no, I don't recall any specific 21 documentation such as this person is coming in to see the 22 Secretary or, you know, whatever. I'm purely offering 23 speculation here, which is inappropriate, and I'm not going 24 to do that. 25 Q Do you know whether Johnny Chung participated on 101 1 the 1994 trade mission to China? Did he attend some of the 2 gatherings in China? 3 A Could have, but I certainly wasn't aware of it. 4 That's speculation on my part. Could very well not have 5 happened. 6 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 7 mark as Exhibit 4. 8 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 4 was 9 marked for identification.) 10 This is an article which appeared in the Washington 11 Post, written by David Jackson and Lena Sun, entitled, "Liu 12 and Johnny Chung's Puzzling Financial Ties." 13 I turn your attention to page 5 out of eight pages. 14 If you can just read that quickly. 15 A Page 5? 16 Q Page 5. And I'll ask whether that refreshes your 17 recollection about the questions I've asked you concerning 18 Johnny Chung. 19 (Witness reviews document.) 20 A Okay. 21 Q Does that refresh your recollection? 22 A Refresh my recollection of what? 23 Q As to whether Mr. Chung participated in the 1994 24 China trade trip. 25 A No, because I had no knowledge of the fact that 102 1 Johnny Chung was present for this trade mission. It says 2 here that he was unofficial and paid his own way. 3 Q Well, whether or not he paid his own way or not, I 4 take it you still don't remember as to whether he actually 5 appeared on that trade mission; is that correct? 6 A I don't have any knowledge that he was on the trade 7 mission. 8 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 9 mark as Exhibit 5. 10 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 5 was 11 marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q And I ask you to read pages 1 and 2 of that 14 exhibit. This is an article by Jonathan Salant of the 15 Associated Press, S-a-l-a-n-t, entitled, "Panel Lewks at 16 Fundraisers Access." And if you would just quickly read 17 pages 1 and 2. 18 (Witness reviews document.) 19 A Okay. 20 Q Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 21 or not Charlie Trie participated on the Chinese trade 22 mission, the '94 trade mission? 23 A No, I don't have any knowledge of Charlie Trie 24 participating in the trade mission. 25 Q Do you know whether Charlie Trie ever met with 103 1 Bernard Schwartz of Loral and Lockheed Martin? 2 A I don't have any knowledge. 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Would you turn your attention to what I will ask 6 the court report to mark as Exhibit 6. 7 MS. BRASWELL: No, no stickers on those documents. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me? 9 MS. BRASWELL: I said I don't want any stickers on 10 those documents, or on those. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: No. Those are my copies. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Oh, on your copies, fine. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. I told you I was putting 14 these little things on the edges. 15 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. No. I wanted to make sure 16 she didn't put a sticker. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, I understand. Okay. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What are they? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: These are John Huang's calendars. 20 And we'll mark the copies. I'll mark the 1994 calendar 21 Exhibit 6 and the 1995 calendar Exhibit 7. 22 (Forest Deposition Exhibits 6 and 7 23 were marked for identification.) 24 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, may we take just a 25 moment? The witness would like to confer with me. 104 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 2 (Off the record.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Forest, I turn your attention to Exhibit 6, 5 which is Mr. Huang's desk calendar for 1994. And turning to 6 the week of March 28th -- 7 A Beginning Monday, March 20, okay. 8 Q Do you see on Wednesday it says, "Security, Room 9 3407 Meeting." 10 MS. BRASWELL: What date? 11 THE WITNESS: March 28th -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: March 30th. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: March 30th, I'm sorry. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q It's the week of March 28th, that page. This is on 17 March 30th. 18 A Mm-hmm. I see it. 19 Q Did you attend that meeting? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Do you know what such a meeting might have been 22 about? 23 A Purely speculation on my part. 24 Q Well, this is discovery. 25 A It could have been a security briefing. Typically, 105 1 for incoming employees, 3407 which is the Office of the Under 2 Secretary's conference room was reserved to do incoming 3 employee briefings. 4 I don't know when Mr. Huang came into the 5 Department as an employee, nor do I know when he got his 6 briefing. Nor do I even know what his clearance was. 7 So, I mean that's purely speculation on my part and 8 I have no idea, you know, why it says "Security." 9 Q Can you turn to the week of August 1st? And I turn 10 your attention to Tuesday, August 2nd. 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q At 2:00 p.m., it says, "China Trip Checklist." And 13 it looks like, "Nancy," next to that. 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Do you know what that was reference to? "China 16 Trip Checklist, Nancy." 17 A The Nancy probably refers to Nancy Patent. The 18 China Trip Checklist, I don't know what that means. 19 Q Did Mr. Huang have access to or create a China 20 list? A checklist? 21 A If he did, I certainly wasn't aware of it. 22 Q Was there anything whether it was called checklist 23 or anything else that could have been a list of priorities 24 that Mr. Huang had access to or discussed concerning this 25 China trip in 1994? 106 1 A He would have had access to all the information 2 generated out of my office. And, you know, if such a list 3 was a delegation list -- I mean it's purely speculation on my 4 part what this list could have been. I mean I have, you 5 know, I don't know what this meeting was about. 6 Q Did Mr. Huang ever make recommendations as to who 7 should be on the China trip? 8 A No, not that I recall, not to me. 9 Q Do you know whether he made those recommendations 10 to others? 11 A Not to my knowledge. 12 Q Have you ever seen any documentation which might 13 even suggest that Huang was recommending participants on 14 trade missions to China? 15 A No, I don't recall. 16 Q Specifically, do you know whether he recommended 17 Bernard Schwartz of Loral? Does that refresh your 18 recollection? 19 A No. 20 Q Down in the entry at 5:30 p.m., it says, "Reception 21 White House DNC Meeting." Do you know what that's in 22 reference to? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you ever attend any receptions with Mr. Huang 25 at the White House of the Democratic National Committee? 107 1 A No. 2 Q The reference at 12:15 p.m. on August 2nd, it says, 3 "W.M. Hubbell, Sam and Harry, 79th &," something. Do you 4 know what that was in reference to? 5 A I think it says 19th, but -- 6 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, that's right. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 19th. 8 THE WITNESS: If we were in New York, it'd be 79th. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I can't read what's after it. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. I don't recall that. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you ever see Webster Hubbell at the Commerce 13 Department? 14 A I have not. 15 Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang ever provided 16 documents to Webster Hubbell? 17 A I have no knowledge. 18 Q I turn your attention to the week ending August 19 21st, the entry is for Friday, August 19th. 20 A August 19th in particular? 21 Q Yes. 22 A Okay. 23 Q There's a reference at 10:00 to Mark Grovemire. 24 And then it says something underneath that. Can you read 25 that? 108 1 A "Stevenson," I don't -- I'm not sure. 2 Q "Stevens?" 3 A It's hard to read. It looks like a Stevenson or 4 Severson. I don't know. 5 Q Do you know what this reference was about? 6 A Well, the name sounds familiar to me, but I can't 7 place it. I don't know where Mark Grovemire -- I, I -- 8 vaguely familiar to me, but I don't know who Mark Grovemire 9 is. 10 Q Lewk back on the entry of Wednesday, August 17th, 11 at 3:30. It says, "Jude Kearney, DAS-INF/TD." Just 12 literally, do you know what that means? DAS-INF/TD? 13 A Deputy Assistant Secretary, Insurance and Finance, 14 Trade Development Division. 15 Q It says at 5:00 p.m., "Chuck and Nancy." Do you 16 know whether or not Mr. Huang ever met with Jude Kearney? 17 Does this refresh your recollection? 18 A I -- I can only imagine that he probably did, but I 19 -- it's speculation on my part to say that he did. 20 Q What leads you to believe that he probably did? 21 A Because I'm looking at it here. 22 Q Okay. Turn to the week of September 5th. The 23 entry for Tuesday, September 6th. 24 A For September 6th, okay. 25 Q September 6th, excuse me. Tuesday, September 6th, 109 1 the entry at 4:00 p.m. where it says, "Don Forest, Room 2 2317." 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Q Is that your room number? 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q Is that still your room number? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And what does it say underneath that? 9 A It says, "Don Forest with Chuck, re: China Trip." 10 Q Well, it says more than that; doesn't it? 11 "Don Forest, Room 2317 -- " 12 A "OD." 13 Q What's OD mean? 14 A Office Director. 15 Q And then what does it say under that at 4:30? 16 A "Don Forest with Chuck, re: China Trip." 17 Q Okay. What happened at 4:00 p.m. on September 6th, 18 Tuesday? 19 A As I recall, there was a personnel issue that I was 20 -- had met with Mr. Huang about on a number of occasions and, 21 perhaps this calendar reflects that. 22 I believe that my meeting at 4:00 was to talk about 23 that. But then, also, you know -- I believe it was about 24 that. 25 Q Well, it says, "Don Forest, re: China Trip." Was 110 1 that part of the same meeting? 2 A No. 3 Q That was a separate meeting? 4 A Correct. 5 Q What did you discuss with Chuck about the China 6 trip? Chuck being Chuck Misener? 7 A Yes. What I discussed specifically with Chuck 8 Misener and John Huang was the following, and I remember it 9 clearly. I told them in general terms what were the results 10 of this mission. In other words, the contracts that were 11 signed, the policy discussions for the mission, itself; in 12 other words, I did a debrief for John Huang and Chuck 13 Misener. 14 I also complained to both of them as they were in 15 my chain-of-command about the lack of support for this 16 mission. In other words, the lack of personnel support. So 17 that was the purpose of my meeting with these individuals. 18 Q So this was the same meeting? 19 A Essentially, yeah, one flowed into the other; but 20 it was essentially the same meeting, yes. 21 Q They were both in the meeting and it took place in 22 your office? 23 A No. I think John came down to my office and we 24 talked about the personnel issue. Then we went up to Chuck 25 Misener's office. No, no. 111 1 As I recall, we went to John's office and Chuck 2 Misener joined us in John's office, in John Huang's office, 3 right. 4 Q And during that meeting, y'all took notes? 5 A I didn't take notes. 6 Q You saw John Huang taking notes, though; didn't 7 you? 8 A No, I did not. 9 Q You saw Misener taking notes? 10 A No, I don't recall him taking notes, either. 11 Q Was the conversation recorded in any way? 12 A Not that I recall. 13 Q Tape recorded minutes after the meeting? 14 A Not that I recall. 15 Q Memoranda prepared after the meeting? 16 A No. 17 Q Was there anything decided upon at the meeting in 18 terms of future action? 19 A No. I recall two distinct issues. One was to 20 brief these individuals, the other was to level my concerns 21 about personnel. That was the focus of this discussion. 22 Q During this meeting, did you discuss the results of 23 the China trip as concerns morale? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object to t 25 his question. There were clearly no records that were 112 1 created as a result of this meeting, so whatever else was 2 discussed is beyond the scope of discovery. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe it generated future documents, 4 Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did it? 6 THE WITNESS: Did I generate future documents? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: After this meeting? 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you return to your office and 10 memorialize the conversations? 11 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you ever see a document by 13 you or these gentlemen with reference to the meeting that had 14 occurred? 15 THE WITNESS: On the personnel issue, yes. 16 Personnel, only. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who was that? If you remember, 18 who was the document to and from? 19 THE WITNESS: The document was to me and it was 20 relative to the various personnel issues that I was 21 discussing and had nothing to do with this mission. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: It had nothing to do with? 23 THE WITNESS: The mission. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: By the way, for my information, 25 Mr. Forest, by now had the mission taken place? 113 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. In fact, it took place before 2 Labor Day, the last week of August. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But it's called September mission. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, it went through September 1st 5 was the last day of the mission, but it was really I believe 6 August 26th through September 1, as I recall. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, John Huang did participate in the discussion 9 about the China trip, August 26th to September 3rd. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q This conversation that you had. 13 A I'm not sure what -- 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, which conversation 15 are you talking about? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q It's one that we have at 4:00 p.m. on Tuesday, 18 September 6th. 19 A Yes, he did. 20 Q Mr. Huang was not to the best of your knowledge any 21 way prohibited from participating in any matters concerning 22 the China trip? 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Scope. 24 THE WITNESS: No, not to my knowledge, no. 25 114 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You don't have any knowledge, do you, of Mr. Huang 3 ever having been taking out of the loop on issues involving 4 China; do you? 5 A You really have to clarify what you mean by taking 6 out of the loop. 7 Q Prohibited from having any dealings with regard to 8 Chinese issues. 9 A To my knowledge, and as I indicated before, it was 10 the desire of the Office of the Under Secretary to pursue 11 China-related issues on dual track. A team for Taiwan, a 12 team for the PRC. 13 Mr. Huang was typically regarded as focusing on the 14 team for Taiwan. 15 Q But in no way at any time was he walled off from 16 Chinese issues? 17 A Was there an official policy, do you mean about 18 walling him off? 19 Q Yes. Yes. 20 A Written or otherwise? Spoken? 21 Q Yes, correct. 22 A There was, there was an understood -- there was 23 something understood that certain officials dealt with 24 certain countries and issues and other officials did not. 25 Q But there was nothing specifically prohibiting Mr. 115 1 Huang from dealing in Chinese issues? 2 A Not prohibiting, no. There were -- there were 3 certainly indications, protests from other officials above 4 him whose prerogative, they felt it was their prerogative to 5 have certain geographic regions versus others. 6 Q Have you ever heard it said or did you ever see it 7 written that John Huang was walled off from Chinese issues? 8 A No, I have never seen it written. 9 But, you know, in the normal course of doing U.S.- 10 China relations work for the Department, John Huang was not 11 someone who was consulted on these issues. 12 Q You were consulting with him on these issues; 13 weren't you? 14 A I was consulting with him and his supervisor. 15 Q Correct. 16 A I was informing them -- I was debriefing them on 17 the mission. 18 Q have you ever discussed the Chinese trade mission 19 with any member of the media? 20 A At the time of the mission? Before the mission? 21 After the mission? When? 22 Q Let's take -- divide it in three parts. Good 23 suggestion. Leading up to the mission? 24 A Not that I recall. 25 Q During the mission? 116 1 A Certainly not then. 2 Q And after the mission? 3 A It could have been that the press called the office 4 and asked for insights. And standard operating procedure in 5 that regard is to refer all those calls to the Office of 6 Public Affairs, which I followed strictly. 7 Q I turn your attention to Exhibit 3. Lewking at the 8 second page, there is a press delegation which went to China, 9 Helene Cooper, "Wall Street Journal;" Lindsey Griffiths, 10 "Router's News;" Colleen McElroy, "Bloomberg News;" Bill 11 Rappleye, "Financial World Magazine;" Paul Wiseman, "USA 12 Today." 13 A Mm-hmm. 14 Q Did you ever discuss the China trade mission with 15 any of these people? 16 A I was on the plane with these people. I recall 17 having conversation from Guangdong to Hong Kong because I was 18 seated in the reporter's section. But I, I don't recall what 19 that conversation was about. 20 Q Did you ever provide any documentation about the 21 Chinese trade mission to any reporters? 22 A I provided official releases, official documents to 23 our Office of Public Affairs and at the time the person who 24 was responsible for Public Affairs on the trip, Carol 25 Hamilton, but I did not directly provide -- provide directly 117 1 any information in writing to these reporters. 2 Q Did you provide the original documents to Ms. 3 Hamilton or did you also keep copies? In other words, did 4 you give her your only copy of the document or did you keep a 5 backup? 6 A Yeah, I -- I don't recall what kind of documents 7 these were. These were very likely, you know, they could 8 have been handed to me from Ms. Liu who had created a 9 deliverables list of projects that were being announced. And 10 I think this list was also being -- was also generated by 11 other members of the staff. That's what I would recall as 12 basically providing Ms. Hamilton. 13 Q Did you ever hear of somebody by the name of John 14 Dickerson? 15 A No. 16 Q He was the CIA agent that briefed John Huang. Does 17 that refresh your recollection? 18 A The name sounds familiar to me, now, and it could 19 be that I recall his name as well from a pool of intelligence 20 liaison office people who do briefings. 21 Q Did you ever have a discussion about Mr. Huang with 22 Mr. Dickerson? 23 A No. 24 Q Any intelligence official? 25 A No. 118 1 Q Or personnel? 2 A No. 3 Q Do you know of any specific documents that were 4 given to Mr. Huang by Mr. Dickerson or anyone at the 5 intelligence agencies? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Beyond the scope. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Subject to my prior ruling in 8 reference to that is still continuing. You may ask the 9 question subject to counsel's objection. 10 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat it, please? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know of any documents that were provided to 13 Mr. Huang by any intelligence personnel? 14 A Specific documents? 15 Q No, I don't recall. 16 A Okay. Turning your attention to December 18th, the 17 week ending December 18th, the entry for Thursday, December 18 15th at 12:00 noon where on Mr. Huang's calendar, it says, 19 "Lunch with Don Forest." 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What day is that, sir? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: That's December 15th. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see it. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Did you have lunch with Mr. Huang on that date? 25 A I believe we did, yes. 119 1 Q Where did you have lunch? 2 A I think it was at the -- as I recall, I think it 3 was the Willard coffee shop. 4 Q Who invited who? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What does that have to do with 7 anything? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it may have something to do 9 with motives and intent. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You don't have to answer that 12 question. Rephrase another question, sir. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q What was discussed during that meeting? 15 A As I recall, it was largely this personnel issue 16 that I was concerned about. 17 Q So you were following up on your earlier 18 discussion? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q During that meeting, did you also discuss aspects 21 of the China trade mission in the fall of '94? 22 A Not that I recall. It could have been, but I don't 23 recall that. It's purely speculation on my part to think 24 that I -- I don't -- I honestly don't remember. 25 Q Did Mr. Huang have a briefcase with him when he 120 1 went to lunch with you at the Willard Hotel? 2 A Not that I recall. 3 Q Do you know where he went after lunch? 4 A No, I have no idea where he went. 5 Q Did he go back with you to the Department? 6 A I think so. I think so. 7 Q Did he tell you during that lunch that he visited 8 Stevens, Inc., that was also in that building? 9 A No, he didn't. 10 Q I turn your attention to Exhibit 7. This is the 11 John Huang calendar in 1995. Did John Huang -- with what 12 frequency did you talk with John Huang in the Department? 13 Once a week? Twice a week? Generally speaking, how many 14 times did you talk to him each week? 15 A Probably once or twice a week. 16 Q And what was the general subject of those 17 conversations other than personnel? 18 A Well, it was mostly personnel. 19 Q Did you discuss the trade missions with him? 20 A I recall once asking his assistance in drafting a 21 letter in Chinese to Minister of Trade Wu Yee. And that, 22 though, I think was before -- I think that was before the 23 trade mission. I can't recall, but I do remember 24 specifically asking him would he please help me draft a 25 letter -- my Chinese is poor -- to Minster Wu Yee. 121 1 Q You do speak Chinese, though? 2 A My Chinese is, as I said, poor. 3 Q I turn your attention to Exhibit 7, the entry at 4 Friday, September 15th. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 6 any questions that go from 1995. This is after any documents 7 could have been created. The request came in in September of 8 1994. Any documents that were created after that would not 9 be responsive to the FOIA request; therefore, the subject of 10 conversation that occurred after that might have generated 11 documents also would not be relevant to the FOIA request. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, at this point our suit -- 13 or, rather, our FOIA request had already been filed. Our 14 suit was underway and there could have been discussions 15 concerning compliance with our lawsuit. 16 MS. BRASWELL: If the questions are limited just to 17 that, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You may ask those questions. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: And other matters that are relevant 20 to that -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. Ask the questions you 22 outlined. 23 MS. BRASWELL: September what? 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Friday, September 15th. 122 1 A Mm-hmm. 2 Q The entry there is 11:00 a.m., Bruce Lindsey, White 3 House. 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang ever went to the 6 White House to discuss compliance with our FOIA request, 7 Judicial Watch's FOIA request? 8 A Not to my knowledge. 9 Q Did you see Mr. Huang before he visited the White 10 House on that day? 11 A No. 12 Q You don't know whether or not he took documents 13 over to the White House that day? 14 A I have no idea. 15 Q I turn your attention now to the week beginning 16 September 18th at 9:30 a.m., "Westinghouse Executives." Do 17 you see that? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q On Wednesday, September 20th, "Westinghouse 20 Executives." 21 A Mm-hmm. 22 Q Westinghouse went on that trade mission to China; 23 did it not? 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 123 1 or not Mr. Huang was meeting with Westinghouse executives 2 about matters which occurred on the trade mission to China in 3 the fall of 1994? 4 A I don't recall meeting with Mr. Huang in the 5 presence of Westinghouse executives. 6 Q Do you know whether he met Westinghouse executives 7 concerning that trade mission? 8 A I don't recall. 9 Q Now, aside from the meetings that you've described, 10 eight or nine meetings, planning for the China trade mission, 11 a handful of meetings where Mr. Huang was present, were there 12 other meetings where the Chinese trade mission was discussed? 13 The one in 1994? 14 A You're asking for the universe of all meetings in 15 which this trade mission was discussed? 16 Q Yeah. 17 A With any individual? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Inside? Outside? 20 Q Yes. 21 A I'm sure that I would have, have met with 22 representatives of the U.S.-China Business Council to debrief 23 them about this trade mission and there would have been 24 potentially numerous other meetings in my office or outside 25 the building or in joining other officials for meetings; but 124 1 do I remember any one specific meeting? No, I don't. 2 Q Do you remember whether any documents were created 3 with regard to these other meetings? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to the extent it calls for 5 documents created after the FOIA request came in. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm talking about the China trade 7 mission. 8 MS. BRASWELL: That's right, but any documents 9 created after your FOIA request came in in September of 1994, 10 would not be relevant. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: They may reflect, they may reflect 12 events that occurred that did fall within the scope of our 13 FOIA request. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, if the documents were 15 created after the FOIA request came in, they are not part of 16 the FOIA request. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: But they are part of this discovery, 18 Your Honor; the reason being that there may have been 19 documents created that would reflect documents which fell 20 within the scope of the FOIA request or they may also reflect 21 efforts to suppress documents that should have been produced 22 in the FOIA request. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Fine. I'll overrule the 24 objection. 25 THE WITNESS: There were documents that were 125 1 created that reflect the outcomes of the mission in 1994. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q What kind of documents are they? 4 A I mean I know one, for example -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Forest, before you go on, 6 these are post-September 1994? 7 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What do they do? They reflect 9 outcome of the missions? 10 THE WITNESS: Correct. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What else do they do? 12 THE WITNESS: That's it. What's the next step? 13 Here's the outcome of the mission; what's the next step. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: One of the issues, Your Honor, and 15 we're not going to reach it today, obviously, that Judge 16 Lamberth, in his orders, talked about the other FOIA request 17 which we made which are under litigation which subsume all 18 the trade missions. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As I understand the footnote was 20 the first 1994 FOIA request followed by others which today is 21 still in the process of exhausting administrative efforts. 22 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, what happened, in this 23 case right here, there were three FOIA requests, a September 24 13th, 1994, a September 14th, 1994, and an October 20th, 25 1994. That's in this case, 95-0133. 126 1 There are other FOIA cases that Mr. Klayman has 2 against the Department of Commerce that have other FOIA 3 requests. There is no grant of discovery in those other 4 cases; therefore, those requests and anything pertaining to 5 those requests are not to be considered part of the discovery 6 order in this case. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Not at this time, Your Honor. We 8 don't contend otherwise; but the Judge did, I believe, 9 implore the parties to come to some kind of accommodation. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He did. 11 MS. BRASWELL: He did, Your Honor, and we did come 12 to an accommodation by agreeing that the new search that we 13 would do in this particular civil action would also encompass 14 a search for records that are in the other FOIA actions. So, 15 in fact, we reached a significant accommodation by basically 16 embracing all of those FOIA requests in the new search. But 17 we by no means said that we would open it up to discovery. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm asking if the government 19 wants to cooperate here so we don't have to go back into it 20 later; but if that's the position that the government wants 21 to take, then we'll go back to the court on this issue. I 22 was looking more for documents that would evidence documents 23 that have never been produced in this case. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But then I guess the question for 25 you, Mr. Forest, is -- I appreciate it is very difficult for 127 1 you to understand, but basically, there is a FOIA request, 2 you've heard it described as September 14th, 1994, and 3 October 20th, 1994. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: It's actually, excuse me, Your 5 Honor, I think Ms. Braswell misspoke. It's September 12th, 6 13th, and October 19th. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Those are three. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: There's three. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So, most of the questions at this 10 point in your deposition have been documents that were 11 created before then. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, the question has been asked 14 of you as to whether or not there were follow-up discussions 15 which came into existence, after I take it, October 19 of 16 1994 after this FOIA request. Your lawyer has objected to 17 that question. 18 The question I have for you is a very complicated 19 one, and I apologize for its complexity. Can you think of 20 any documents that you ever saw that while they were created 21 after October 20th, 1994, referred back to documents created 22 before then? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. Referred to events or 24 documents? Yes. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: There were some that referred to 128 1 events, some that referred to documents and some we can 2 expected referred to both. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So, in other words, you could say 5 -- as I told you in a memorandum of September 4th, you got 6 back from China, so forth and so on. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And that may well have been and 9 that may also recount an event that occurred before. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As to those, Ms. Braswell, what is 12 your concern? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Well, Your Honor, what is the 14 question that Mr. Klayman is going to ask? Whether those 15 documents exist? 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He wants to know -- let's say, for 17 example, there was a document on October 1st, December 1st, 18 1994. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Right. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And it referred back to documents 21 that were in existence prior to October 19th, 1994. 22 MS. BRASWELL: Right. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Can he make inquiry about that? 24 MS. BRASWELL: I mean not unless he's making 25 inquiry because he thinks that he can show that the document 129 1 it refers to was destroyed or removed or not produced. And 2 that document may well have been produced in the huge amount 3 of documents that we gave to him. 4 So unless he can say that he's asking about a post- 5 request document that refers to another document that he 6 doesn't have, then, no, it is not a legitimate area of 7 inquiry. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But in terms of what I 9 think she's permitting that meets what you asked the witness, 10 as I understand it, if he ever saw any documents which 11 referred back to pre-October 1994 documents. 12 And I take it you're doing that to make sure (a) 13 you got everything you needed and were supposed to get under 14 your FOIA request and (b) nothing was destroyed. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. But there's another aspect 16 to it which Your Honor touched is that if the later prepared 17 document refers to an event before that because of the 18 limited production that we received we didn't know about, 19 then that information could lead to discovery of documents 20 that weren't produced. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And that would pertain to a 22 document that was created after October 19th, 1994. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, right. 24 I mean, for instance, suppose after the date of our 25 FOIA request sometime in November of 1994 there's a document 130 1 that's created that says that John Huang recommended Bernard 2 Schwartz to go on the trade mission. Then, obviously, there 3 must have been documents created before the trade mission up 4 to and including the dates of our FOIA request which 5 reflected that. 6 MS. BRASWELL: That's not obvious, Your Honor. 7 That's totally speculative. I mean his position is that at 8 every single meeting anybody goes to, notes are taken and 9 documents are created. 10 We all know that throughout the government there 11 are numerous meetings that people go to where no documents 12 are created. So, it is an unfair assumption to assume that 13 every event that occurred in connection with these trade 14 missions generated a document and if we can't produce a 15 document, we must have destroyed or run off with it. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The inquiry of the witness is much 17 narrower than that. The only inquiry of the witness that I 18 think makes sense in the context of where we are is whether 19 documents were created after October 1994 refer back to 20 documents that were in existence prior to October 19, 1994. 21 And that's what I was trying to do; because, if that is the 22 inquiry, then Mr. Klayman can compare the witness's 23 recollection of those documents with what he got in FOIA. 24 I'm sorry, Mr. Forest, if that's clear as mud. 25 THE WITNESS: No, that's fine. 131 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you understand what I'm saying? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 3 Do I remember any specific documents created? No. 4 Would there have been documents created that would have 5 referred back to the trade mission? Invariably, yes. 6 Again, as I've said before, in meetings, in 7 conversations for me, personally, my notes are memory-joggers 8 or whatever. They are not, you know, they are not things 9 that I give to any other individual in the office because my 10 handwriting's so bad. No, I'm kidding. 11 It's just, you know, if you're talking about my own 12 notes, my own memoranda, no. I, I -- you know, I'm sure that 13 I created some -- I may have created something as a result of 14 some discussion -- there was enormous discussion about 15 following the trade mission, about how hard the numbers are 16 on these deals that were consummated. Was it $6 billion? 17 Was it less than $6 billion? What was the export content? 18 So there was a lot of documentation on that issue. 19 Any notes that I would have generated on my own, 20 handwritten notes, were, you know, sort of my own notes and I 21 did not keep those notes. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Did you ever keep any kind of recordation on your 24 computer or make any notations on your computer about events 25 that were occurring related to that China trade mission? 132 1 A You have to be -- I'll ask you to be a little bit 2 more clear about what you mean by a record. What do you 3 mean? 4 Q Well, did you ever write anything down on your 5 computer and store it on the hard drive? 6 A Of course. I used my computer all the time. 7 Q And you didn't always generate paper off of that 8 computer; did you? 9 A What do you mean? 10 Q In other words, you might just have left it on the 11 hard drive and you could recall it. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You didn't necessarily print 13 everything you wrote. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 15 THE WITNESS: Correct, yes. Right. I didn't 16 necessarily -- it could have been that I did not print lots 17 of stuff. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you still have the computer that you had back in 20 1994? 21 A As I recall the hard drive for that computer was -- 22 all the hard drive was downloaded, all the documents were 23 printed out. What was responsive to this FOIA was provided. 24 I, I don't remember if in our office we still have 25 the computer, to tell you the truth. 133 1 Q Who downloaded that computer? 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: For the purposes of this request? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 4 THE WITNESS: I am the person who searched my own 5 files. So when I say downloaded, perhaps that is a stretch, 6 but I'm the person that searched my own files. Every person 7 in my office is responsible for their own FOIA search. I did 8 not go to individual staff members and inspect their hard 9 drives, their files. They were responsible for doing their 10 own searches as I was responsible for doing my own search. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was there anything in writing that told each 13 employee how to do the search? 14 A I distributed the FOIA search that was provided by 15 our Office of Administration, and there were meetings, I 16 believe, by some of our superiors informing us as to how the 17 search needed to be conducted in terms of its completeness, 18 the scope, timeliness, and the like. 19 Q Do you have a copy of that FOIA directive that was 20 provided to you by this administrative branch? 21 A I don't, no. Not back then. 22 Q What was the name of the office that provided this 23 document? 24 A It was probably the Office of Administration in the 25 International Trade Administration. Probably Alan Neuschats 134 1 who was the Director of Administration at the time or one of 2 his employees. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Braswell, we've never gotten that 4 document. 5 MS. BRASWELL: I don't know if that document is 6 responsive to anything. If you think it's responsive to 7 something that we are ordered to produce, then please let me 8 know and I'll take it up with the Department. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's in the file. In fact, 10 Judge Lamberth ordered, because we had a hearing about this, 11 that all documents that would reflect how the search was done 12 be produced. Mr. Hagi was to have produced that on behalf of 13 the Department of Justice for the Department of Commerce. We 14 have never gotten that document. 15 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I'm saying to the best 16 of my recollection, the best of my recollection, that 17 instructions were either done verbally or there was some memo 18 that was circulated because that has been standard operating 19 procedure for these FOIA requests. There was a memo 20 generated for this current FOIA request with lots of 21 documentation as to how to go about doing the FOIA request. 22 I have documented to my own staff how the FOIA request is 23 supposed to be done for this current search. 24 So, it could be that they didn't generate it. I'm 25 saying to the best of my recollection, following standard 135 1 operating procedure, you know -- I would have assumed five 2 years ago that there was such a memo. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You believe that you saw one. 5 A Could be. 6 Q Okay. Well, just a few minutes ago, you were 7 pretty sure about having seen one. 8 A I think I've been clear as my certainty on this 9 issue. I don't think I need to repeat that. I don't think I 10 need to repeat that. I think I've been clear about that. 11 Q No, I think you were very certain. You said 12 definitely you had received a memo from the Office of 13 Administration telling you how to search for Judicial Watch's 14 FOIA request and around the time they were served; correct? 15 A I said I thought that such a memo was circulated. 16 I would have thought that the Office of Administration had 17 generated such a memo, but later I also indicated that I am 18 basically reflecting on my recollection of standard operating 19 procedure. 20 Q And this memorandum would have been provided in the 21 ordinary course to Melinda Yee; correct? 22 A I don't know if it was given to Melinda Yee. 23 Standard operating procedure would have been giving it to any 24 employee that was affected by this request for delivery of 25 documents. 136 1 Q And you are aware that Melinda Yee did participate 2 in the planning and did, in fact, go on this 1994 trade 3 mission to China? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And you are aware that Ms. Yee has testified that 6 she destroyed her notes of the trade missions to China and 7 India? 8 A I am not aware of that. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think we had better give our 10 reporter a break. Five minutes. 11 (A brief recess was taken.) 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 13 reporter to mark as Exhibit 8. 14 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 8 was 15 marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Its the Court's order of May 16th, 1995. 18 Mr. Forest, have you ever seen this order before? 19 A I honestly don't recall. 20 Q On or about May 16th, 1995, did you become aware in 21 the ordinary course of business at Department of Commerce 22 that this court had ordered production of documents to 23 Judicial Watch under a fee waiver? 24 A I was aware of the FOIA request that had come in 25 from Judicial Watch, the numerous ones that had come in. I 137 1 don't recall about a fee waiver. 2 Q Do you recall that in May of 1995 this court 3 ordered the Commerce Department to produce those documents to 4 Judicial Watch? 5 A There were numerous FOIA requests; I don't recall 6 the specific dates. My latest recollection is the most 7 recent one and the one just following the trip. I don't 8 remember the others that followed thereafter. 9 Q It would be better if you moved closer to the 10 microphone, sir. 11 A Oh, I'm sorry. Excuse me. Forgive me. 12 Q Okay. However, you knew generally in and around 13 May of 1995 that the court had ordered production of Judicial 14 Watch's FOIA request documents. 15 A Yes. 16 Q And that was common knowledge at the Department of 17 Commerce; correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And it was common knowledge among the various trade 20 trips involved were China and India; correct? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Involved in the FOIA request? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Involved in Judicial Watch's FOIA requests. 24 A I recall specifically that most of the FOIAs coming 25 into the Department were China focused. 138 1 Q And that was well known? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Is one of the reasons that it was well known 4 because of the press articles that I showed you in Exhibits 1 5 and 2? Is that one of the reasons that it was well known at 6 the Department that Judicial Watch had posed FOIA requests 7 about these trade missions? 8 A It was well known to me because we were requested 9 to provide the documents. Outside of the fact that it may 10 have appeared in the press, that's my orientation to this 11 information. 12 Q At that point in time in May of 1995, is it your 13 opinion that the trade missions conducted by Secretary Brown 14 had become somewhat controversial? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why is his opinion significant? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: It creates a condition at the 18 Department where people would have known of the court orders, 19 that the case had gained a notoriety. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What was your knowledge of the 21 case as of that time? Had you learned anything? 22 THE WITNESS: The Judicial Watch case, you mean? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Did you learn anything about 24 the case besides being advised there had been such a request 25 and you might have an obligation to comply? 139 1 THE WITNESS: No. I mean there was the -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you see any contemporary press 3 accounts such as the ones to which counsel brought your 4 attention previously? 5 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that I have seen numerous 6 press accounts of the Department being asked to provide 7 documents relative to trade missions the Secretary took to 8 China. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And you had seen those press reports in and around 11 May of 1995? And before? 12 A In general. Whenever they were published, they 13 were published and made available to anyone in the Department 14 who received this -- daily newspapers as well as press 15 highlights for the Department. 16 Q As assistant to Secretary Brown, Melinda Yee would 17 have had access to those press clips; correct? 18 A Certainly. 19 Q And as an assistant to David Rothkoff, she also 20 would have access to those press clips, correct? 21 A Correct. Yes. 22 Q Now, prior to going on this trip to China in 1994, 23 are you aware of whether or not there was a briefing at the 24 White House for the business executives who were to go on 25 that trip? 140 1 A Yes. 2 Q And were there any planning sessions to arrange for 3 that briefing session at the White House? Planning sessions 4 at the Department of Commerce? 5 A We need to be clear about the White House briefing. 6 There was a briefing, if you want to call it that, a meeting 7 with the President on the day of departure, the morning of 8 the departure from Andrews Air Force Base. 9 There was that meeting that I recollect. But I 10 don't remember any other meetings. 11 Q Do you know who planned for this meeting at the 12 White House? Who planned at the Commerce Department? 13 A I believe it was Melissa Moss. 14 Q Did anyone else help her plan for that meeting? 15 A I don't know who on her staff would have helped her 16 for that. 17 Q Did you participate in that planning? 18 A I was invited to the meeting. 19 Q Was there one meeting or more than one meeting? 20 A Did not go. 21 There was one, as I recollect with the President. 22 Q Before we get to the meeting with the President, I 23 take it they were planning meetings at the Commerce 24 Department in anticipation of this meeting with the 25 President. 141 1 A I'm sure there were conversations, dialogues, 2 whatever; I don't recall being privy to that, to that 3 discussion. 4 Q Do you know of anyone who was? 5 A Well, I mean, if I don't know about the 6 discussions, I don't know who would have participated. 7 Q Now, the meeting that was held at the White House, 8 who was present at that meeting? 9 A The Secretary, the Chief of Staff, the Under 10 Secretary Garten, Deputy Under Secretary Rothkoff, Ms. Moss, 11 I'm sure probably Ms. Lew, Ginger Lew, and I don't recall 12 anyone else. 13 Q Were you present? 14 A No. In fact, I -- I actually declined to go at the 15 last minute and the reason was there were preparations for 16 the trip that were not to my satisfaction, so I didn't go. 17 Q That was a protest? 18 A Oh, no. No, not at all. In fact, it was out of my 19 concern that once on the aircraft the Secretary's briefing 20 materials would be as they should be. 21 Q So you stayed back to work on them? 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And who did you work on the briefing materials 24 with? 25 A Several members of my staff were there. Laura 142 1 McCall was there when I decided not to go. Sheila Baker was 2 there -- no. Sheila Baker had left. 3 Q Where had Sheila Baker worked? 4 A In my office. We had stayed up all night, so some 5 people went home, some people were still in the office. And 6 I, I don't remember -- I don't recall who else was around. 7 Q Do you know if Mr. Huang attended the meeting at 8 the White House? 9 A I do not. I, I don't have any recollection and I 10 don't know whether or not he attended. 11 Q Was there a Commerce Department stenographer at 12 that meeting at the White House to take down what had 13 occurred there? 14 A I wasn't present for the meeting, and I -- I knew 15 of no plans to have a stenographer. 16 Q Have you ever seen minutes of that meeting at the 17 White House? 18 A I have not. 19 Q Was there a Commerce Department photographer at 20 that meeting in the White House? 21 A There could have been. I don't recall. 22 Q Do you know whether the White House took videos of 23 that meeting? 24 A I have no idea. 25 Q Were there preparation of documents to be handed 143 1 out to business executives at that meeting at the White 2 House? 3 A Not to my knowledge. 4 Q Do you know whether the White House provided any 5 documentation at that meeting? 6 A Not to my knowledge. 7 Q Do you know who among the various business 8 executives attended that meeting at the White House? 9 A Most of the people who were on the manifest for Air 10 Force Two, which was Secretary Brown's plane to China, and 11 are indicated on that delegation list. 12 Q Including Mr. Bernard Schwartz? 13 A I believe so. 14 Q Including Mr. Edwin Lutberger of Energy 15 Corporation? 16 A I believe so. My recollection was most -- 17 Q Including Michael Jordan of Westinghouse Electric? 18 A I don't believe so. I think Mr. Jordan -- Mr. 19 Jordan did not go on the plane. In fact, he intercepted with 20 the trade mission in Shanghai, I believe, and, so, did not go 21 on the plane. 22 Q Do you know if Ms. Melissa Moss had a contact at 23 the White House? A person she dealt with on a regular 24 basis? 25 A I would have no knowledge who that person would be. 144 1 Q Did you ever discuss with Ms. Moss how trade 2 mission participants were selected? 3 A Were selected or should be selected? 4 Q Let's start with were. 5 A No, I had no -- I don't recall any, any 6 conversation about the criteria that her office used to 7 select, ultimately select mission participants other than the 8 information that my office provided her as well as other 9 offices about these companies. 10 Q Did you ever see documents evidencing a 11 contribution to the Democratic Party and evidencing a seat on 12 the Chinese trade mission or any other trade mission? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you ever receive any communication from 15 Secretary Brown or any of his staff to look for documents 16 that made reference to campaign contributions? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. In response to the FOIA 18 request? 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's my question as well. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I'll rephrase that. Did you ever receive a request 22 from Secretary Brown or anybody on his staff to look for 23 documents which referred or related to campaign contributions 24 concerning the trade missions which are the subject of this 25 case? 145 1 A We received requests to provide all responsive 2 documents to FOIA requests. That's the best way I can 3 respond to that question. 4 I received no specific request to seek out 5 documents regarding DNC contributions or anything relative to 6 that. If I found a document that had some reference to the 7 DNC in this mission, then it was incumbent on me, obviously, 8 to be responsive. So, I hope that answers your question. 9 Q Did you ever come upon any documents which referred 10 or related in any way to campaign contributions? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection again, overly broad. With 12 respect to these trade missions? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'd like to ask it 14 broadly. It's a simple question. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll permit it. 16 THE WITNESS: No. No, I don't recall any documents 17 in which I was asked to or was made aware of how much money 18 an individual gave to the DNC. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Or did you ever see a document which referred to 21 donations to the Democratic National Committee? 22 A No. 23 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 24 mark as Exhibit 9. 25 146 1 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 9 was 2 marked for identification.) 3 A Let me clarify. I have seen press reports where 4 there have -- but I can't recall which press articles or when 5 -- there has been, you know, some indication in those press 6 reports of what individuals, i.e., CEOs, gave or companies 7 gave or both to the DNC. That's my only recollection of 8 that. 9 Q I'll show you what I've asked the court reporter to 10 mark as Exhibit 9. 11 Have you ever seen this document before? It's a 12 DNC Managing Trustee Events and Membership Requirements List, 13 wherein it lists annual economic trade missions, and sets 14 forth at the bottom, "Managing trustee membership requires a 15 contribution of $100,000 annually." 16 A No, I have never seen that. I have never seen this 17 document. 18 Q Do you know of any trade missions having been 19 conducted by the Democratic National Committee? 20 A I'm sorry? 21 Q Do you know of any trade missions having been 22 conducted by the Democratic National Committee from 1992 to 23 the end of 1994? 24 A Any what, again? 25 Q Any trade missions conducted by the Democratic 147 1 National Committee, have you ever heard of any? 2 A Do you mean actually sponsored by the DNC? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A To China or in general? 5 Q To China. 6 A No. 7 Q In general? 8 A No, I don't -- I don't recall any. 9 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 10 mark as Exhibit 10. This is a memorandum, May 5th, 1994, 11 from Martha Phipps, re: White House Activities. 12 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 10 was 13 marked for identification.) 14 Have you ever seen this document before? And it 15 reads in the first paragraph, "In order to reach our very 16 aggressive goal of 40 million this year, it would be very 17 helpful if we could coordinate the following activities 18 between the White House and the Democratic National 19 Committee. No. 4: Invitations to participate in official 20 delegation trips abroad. Contact Alexis Herman." 21 A No. I have never seen this document. 22 Q During the time that you've been at the Commerce 23 Department, have you ever had any contact with Alexis Herman? 24 A No. 25 Q Were you aware at the time of the China trade 148 1 mission that Alexis Herman had anything to do with trade 2 missions? 3 A Was I aware that Alexis Herman had anything to do 4 with trade missions in general or trade missions to China or 5 both? 6 Q All right. Let's take it trade missions in 7 general. 8 A No. 9 Q So I take it that you were never aware that Alexis 10 Herman had any role with regard to those specific trade 11 missions to China? 12 A No. That's correct. 13 Q Did you ever have contact with anyone at the White 14 House about the trade mission to China? 15 A It could have been maybe the National Security 16 Council, if you're regarding that as the White House. 17 There's also the Office of the United States Representative 18 which is part of the White House. So, how broad of a -- do 19 you mean White House proper or White House -- 20 Q Broad. Let me ask you specifically, though, did 21 you ever have any contact with the Office of Public Liaison 22 at the White House concerning -- 23 A No. 24 Q -- the trade mission to China? 25 A No, not that I recall. Not that I recall. 149 1 Q Did you ever have any contact with the U.S. Trade 2 Representative concerning the trade mission to China? 3 A Frequently. 4 Q Who did you have contact with there? 5 A The -- at the time, it was the Deputy Assistant 6 U.S. Trade Representative for China, Lee Sands, the Director 7 for China, Deborah Lehr. Those were my two principal 8 contacts at the time. And at the NSC, I don't recall. 9 Q Did you ever have contact or did anyone else have 10 contact at the Commerce Department with Mickey Kantor 11 directly over the China trade mission? 12 A We need to clarify this. 13 Q Mickey Kantor was the U.S. Trade Representative at 14 the time of the Chinese trade mission. 15 A No, I know. I understand. 16 Q Correct? 17 A Right. 18 Q And did you or anyone else at the Commerce 19 Department have any contact with him about the '94 trade 20 mission to China? 21 A At the time of the trade mission? Before the trade 22 mission? After the trade mission? 23 Q Before the trade mission and at the time of the 24 trade mission. 25 A I did not speak directly to Mickey. This is purely 150 1 speculative on my part. I mean I would think that there were 2 discussions of the trade mission with Under -- with 3 Ambassador Kantor, but I, I was not privy to those 4 discussions. 5 Q Have you ever seen any documentation reflecting 6 those discussions? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know of any documentation reflecting those 9 discussions? 10 A I do not. 11 Q Did you ever receive any communications from trade 12 representative Kantor concerning the trade mission to China? 13 A Using the term "correspondence," using the term 14 "communications," broadly, it's standard operating procedure 15 when drafting a briefing paper of policy issues to share it 16 with the Department of State, the U.S. Trade Representative's 17 office, any other executive branch agency that would be 18 responsible for those issues, and to seek their clearance on 19 that document. 20 So such correspondence is quite frequent, often 21 many times a day, in the leadup to a mission of this sort. 22 Q Was it standard operating procedure to advise the 23 U.S. Trade Representative and other Government agencies of 24 who was being taken on the trade mission to China? 25 A No. In my discussions with the U.S. Trade 151 1 Representative's office, they were largely focused on policy 2 issues, market access, intellectual property rights, and we 3 did not talk about specific projects or specific companies, 4 at my level. 5 Q Do you know whether the participants in trade 6 missions had to be cleared with the Central Intelligence 7 Agency before they were allowed to go on those trips? 8 A I have no knowledge of their being cleared or 9 vetted, or whatever. 10 Q Were they cleared or vetted or whatever with the 11 FBI, to the best of your knowledge? 12 A I know that individual transactions that were 13 recognized resulting from the trip, that was the province or 14 domain of Ginger Lew and her assistant at the time. 15 Q Who was her assistant at the time? 16 A It was a man. I'm trying to remember -- 17 Q Ira Sockowitz? 18 A That's correct. It was their responsibility to vet 19 these contracts and to vet the companies. If you're asking 20 me did the vet include contacting the Federal Bureau of 21 Investigation or the IRS, I don't know specifically. 22 Q Do you know whether any recommendations were ever 23 made at the Department to clear trade mission participants 24 with intelligence and investigative agencies in the Federal 25 Government? 152 1 A I don't recall. I'm trying to think about the 2 procedure we follow now versus the procedure then. I 3 just -- 4 Q Was there ever any concern expressed and committed 5 to writing that the Department needed to be careful not to 6 take foreign intelligence agents on trade missions to China? 7 A Let me go back to your previous question, because I 8 do recall that -- and very vaguely -- that there was one 9 potential participant who was rejected because of problems 10 with the IRS. 11 And I -- but I don't remember who the participant 12 was, I don't remember who told me this. And so it leads me 13 to believe that there was obviously vetting going on, but I 14 was not privy to that. 15 Q My question is, was there ever anything discussed 16 and committed to writing that the Department needed to pay 17 particular attention not to take individuals who could be a 18 security risk on the trade mission to China? 19 A I never discussed, nor was part of any discussion 20 about security risks of particular individuals. 21 Q Do you know of any? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you know of any documentation that was prepared 24 relative to the trip to China? 25 A No. 153 1 Q Now, this is a matter of judicial notice, but China 2 is a communist nation, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Were there any special precautions taken about 5 taking participants on this China trip because China is a 6 communist nation that were different than any precautions 7 that may have been taken concerning trips to other countries? 8 In other words, was there any distinction between 9 going to China as opposed to another country that was non- 10 communist, in terms of who could go on the trip? 11 A In various official briefings that were done for 12 the delegations, and whether those people were from the 13 agency or not, I don't recall, but there were unclassified 14 briefings done for mission participants. 15 I think they were told in general, "If you've got 16 documents, contract information, whatever, that you don't 17 want" -- that you needed to be very cautious in bringing 18 proprietary information to China, because it would be 19 certainly reviewed, revealed, inspected. Computers would be 20 downloaded. In general, all of your personal things would be 21 gone in to. 22 Q So there were writings that committed this concern, 23 that were transmitted to trade mission participants to China? 24 A Not that I recall, that there was this kind of 25 guidance. It was verbal. 154 1 Q Who gave that verbal guidance? 2 A It could have been general briefings by the Office 3 of Business Liaison. It could have been with our own Office 4 of Intelligence Liaison. 5 And I have no idea which agencies those people 6 -- an individual would be -- what agency would be represented 7 by a given individual, whether it was NSA or CIA or DIA. I 8 have no idea. 9 Q I take it there was a concern about industrial 10 espionage? 11 A There's a concern about espionage with China, 12 period. 13 Q Now, do you know specifically who of the trade 14 mission participants to China received this oral briefing? 15 A I think -- I think all of -- if it wasn't then -- I 16 don't recall -- I think they all got it, and I think it was 17 on the actual day of the -- actual day of departure. 18 And the reason was -- is because that was the only 19 time at which all of them could physically come together. 20 I know that some of their Government Affairs Office 21 representatives in Washington attended other briefings on 22 their behalf. But anyways. 23 Q Do you know who gave this briefing? 24 A It would have been organized by the Office of 25 Business Liaison. 155 1 Q Do you know the name? 2 A I don't know the name. 3 Q Do you know where the briefing took place? 4 A Probably in the Secretary's conference room. 5 Q Do you know why it would have been given the day of 6 departure? 7 A Because that was the only time -- 8 Q I'm sorry. You testified to that. 9 A Yes. 10 Q But does that make sense to you, given the fact 11 that these business executives had already come to town with 12 their documents and computers and everything else? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, whether it makes sense or 14 not. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm trying to test, Your Honor, 17 whether indeed it happened that way, because it seems 18 illogical. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It speaks for itself. It seems 20 illogical. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, it's -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection is sustained. 23 Please move on. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Do you know whether any business executives left 156 1 their computers and documents behind before they went on the 2 trade mission to China after this briefing? 3 A I would have no knowledge of that. 4 Q Do you know who would? 5 A I don't, I honestly don't know. 6 Q Do you know of any provisions at the Department of 7 Commerce that were made to store documents in computers for 8 executives going to China? 9 A No. 10 Q So, in fact, you don't really know whether these 11 briefings actually ever took place or not, you're just 12 guessing they took place? 13 A There were several briefings on the morning of 14 departure. One was at the White House. Prior to going to 15 the White House, there was a briefing in the Office of -- in 16 the Office of the Secretary. The Office of the Secretary 17 includes the conference room. You know, I was busy doing 18 other things. 19 Q Now, have you ever met Ira Sockowitz? 20 A Yes. 21 Q In what capacity did you meet him? 22 A I dealt with him on a fairly regular basis, in the 23 course of his dealings on -- in his dealings in the General 24 Counsel's Office. 25 Q What were the dealings that you had with him on a 157 1 fairly regular basis, specifically? 2 A He was the special assistant to Ginger Lew. There 3 were several things that required frequency of contact. One 4 was there was an ongoing dialogue with China on commercial 5 law issues. 6 Ginger Lew was the person responsible for 7 coordinating the commercial law aspects of what was called 8 -- what is called the Joint Commission on Commerce and Trade. 9 Mr. Sockowitz was involved with the General Counsel's Office 10 in coordinating Ms. Lew's involvement in that work, and as 11 was my office involved. 12 Secondly, Mr. Sockowitz was involved directly on 13 this mission in vetting contracts to be announced or to be 14 recognized as a result of this mission. 15 Q Ms. Lew went on the trade mission to China? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Was there ever any discussion inside the Department 18 committed to writing as to whether Ms. Lew should go on this 19 trade mission to China? 20 A Whether she should go? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Not to my recollection. 23 Q Was there ever any discussion inside the Department 24 concerning Mr. Sockowitz, as to whether he should go on the 25 trade mission to China? 158 1 A Not to my recollection. 2 Q It was known inside the Department at the time that 3 Ms. Lew consulted frequently with John Huang, correct? 4 A Do I know how often, how many times, when? No, I 5 don't. Do I know that they talked? Probably. 6 Q Did you see references to meetings between Lew and 7 Huang in the diaries that I showed you earlier? 8 A I would have to look at the diaries again to 9 -- to -- 10 Q You were aware that, as part of Ms. Lew's duties 11 and responsibilities, that she was encharged with reviewing 12 applications for export licenses by high-tech American 13 companies? 14 A That that is a matter of her duties, you know, is 15 -- I am not -- I'm not completely aware of what her duties 16 are. I know generally what her duties are. 17 Q You mean work? 18 A Yeah, in being the general -- in being the general 19 counsel for the Department. 20 Q You are aware that there is a Bureau of Export 21 Administration, correct? 22 A Oh, yes. Of course. 23 Q And at the time of the Chinese trade mission, that 24 the Bureau of Export Administration had someone in it by the 25 name of Hoyt Zia, correct? 159 1 A Yes. I know Hoyt. 2 Q You are aware that Hoyt Zia is a close friend of 3 John Huang, correct? 4 A I am not aware of that. 5 Q You are aware that, when John Huang was questioned 6 by Judicial Watch, and we asked him where he was during the 7 period of time that U.S. marshals didn't find him to serve 8 him with his subpoena, that he testified he had been in 9 contact with Mr. Hoyt Zia, his good friend; you are aware of 10 that, correct? 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 MS. BRASWELL: When the objection is sustained, 15 there's no need to answer. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Was there any discussion at the time of the China 18 trade mission that special precautions should be taken to 19 make sure that Mr. Zia should or should not go on the China 20 trade mission? 21 A I -- I don't have any knowledge of that one way or 22 the other. 23 Q Now, on the China trade mission, you are aware that 24 there were telecommunications companies that went, correct? 25 A Correct. 160 1 Q And you are aware that some of these 2 telecommunications companies had requests for export licenses 3 pending with the Department of Commerce at the time that they 4 went on the trade mission, correct? 5 A Generally aware that they had licenses, yes. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Had licenses or license 7 applications? 8 THE WITNESS: Licenses pending. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And you are aware that the authority to grant those 12 licenses had been transferred from the Department of State 13 and Defense, primarily to the Commerce Department at the 14 time, correct? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Beyond the scope of 16 discovery. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just laying a foundation. 19 MS. BRASWELL: That was sustained, so you don't 20 answer it. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Now, do you know whether any of these 23 telecommunications companies -- well, let's go back. Which 24 telecommunications companies that I just referenced went on 25 the trade trip to China? 161 1 A Loral. 2 Q Are there any others? 3 A Well, I have to qualify here in telecom. I mean, 4 you've got Bell Atlantic on the trip, Sprint. Some aspect of 5 Pitney-Bowes work is telecom-related. AST is information 6 technologies. That's computer related. And Tandem 7 Computers. 8 Q Which of these telecommunications companies deal in 9 satellites among their various business enterprises? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I just wanted to identify 13 so I can then ask about meetings -- 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go on to the meetings. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Were there meetings where telecommunications 17 suppliers participated on the trip to China? I'm talking 18 about actually on the trip. 19 A Meetings during the trip or meetings before the 20 trip? 21 Q During the trip. 22 A During the trip? 23 Q Yes, in China. 24 A With whom? 25 Q With anyone. 162 1 A Meetings about telecommunications issues with these 2 companies and with U.S. Government principals? 3 Q With U.S. Government principals, with Chinese 4 Government principals, with Chinese companies, any of the 5 above, were there any such meetings in China? 6 A I know that some meetings were arranged for 7 companies aside from the meetings that the Secretary had. I 8 can't recall which those -- those specific meetings, who they 9 were with, or who had the meetings. 10 Were there any specific telecom meetings of 11 companies and commerce officials? I don't -- I don't recall. 12 Q There were meetings between telecommunications 13 companies and Chinese officials, were there not, on the trip 14 to China? 15 A Well, let's clarify that. The Secretary's meetings 16 included all of the companies, so therefore, 17 telecommunications companies participated in the meetings. 18 Q Who else participated in the meetings? 19 A Other companies, the other companies. 20 Q Who among Chinese persons participated in the 21 meetings? 22 A The Secretary met with a host of individuals. Are 23 you asking me who the meetings were with? 24 Q Yeah. 25 A Okay. President Jiang Zemin; Vice Premier Li 163 1 Lanqing; Vice Premier Zou Jiahua; Minister of Foreign Trade 2 and Economic Cooperation Wu Yi; in Shanghai, head of the 3 Communist Party, Wu Ban Wo; Mayor of Shanghai Shu Quan Di; in 4 Guanzhou, the Governor of Quangdong Province, and I don't 5 remember who that was at the time. 6 Other meetings in Beijing, perhaps the minister of 7 post and telecommunications, though I don't recall 8 specifically, and at the time it would have been Wu Ji 9 Chuang. 10 There was a dinner at which there were some 20 to 11 25 different vice ministers and minister, including the head 12 of the State Planning Commission, Chen Jin Wa. 13 I -- you know, I would -- I don't recall 14 specifically who all of those people were that attended that 15 -- that particular dinner. But those are the -- those are 16 the bilats I remember principally. 17 Q And the business executives were present at those 18 meetings, along with Secretary Brown? 19 A The business executives -- let me also add, there 20 was probably a meeting with the minister of electric power at 21 the time, and I don't remember his name. 22 All of the executives would attend the President 23 Jiang meeting, the Vice Premier Zou Jiahua, Vice Premier Li 24 Lanqing, the MFTEC trade minister meeting, some part of it. 25 There would be a smaller group meeting for the Secretary and 164 1 U.S. Government officials, and then there would be a larger 2 meeting with these -- with these companies. 3 But typically, the approach was to have the 4 companies travel around with the Secretary to these meetings, 5 to give them exposure. 6 Q And at these meetings, there was someone present 7 from the Department of Commerce who typically would take 8 notes, correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And it was Ms. Melinda Yee who took notes at these 11 meetings, correct? 12 A The official notetaker -- when I say official, I 13 should clarify. The person who prepared the cable reporting 14 official discussion of this meeting was the embassy. 15 Q Who at the embassy during the China trade mission 16 prepared those official cables? 17 A I don't recall. 18 Q Do you remember the generic position of that 19 person? 20 A It would have been the senior commercial officer, 21 perhaps the deputy senior commercial officer, or an officer 22 in the Commercial Service. It could have also been an 23 officer, State Department officer from the economic section 24 of the embassy. 25 Q That officer in the Commercial Service would have 165 1 been under the employ of the Commerce Department, correct? 2 A In the Commercial Service, yes, correct. 3 Q Does documentation exist to show us who that person 4 is, or persons? 5 A There's cable traffic reporting on the meetings. 6 The cable traffic does not identify the drafter, typically. 7 Q But is there documentation, based on your 8 experience with the Commerce Department, from which we can 9 now learn who this person or persons were that prepared that 10 official cable? 11 A I -- I don't know if there is documentation. I 12 mean, there's a drafter, obviously, of these reporting 13 cables. The final document which I would receive in 14 Washington, or any agency would receive, is signed by the 15 ambassador or the deputy chief of mission. 16 So it would either have been signed by Scott 17 Hallford -- 18 Q How is that spelled? 19 A H-a-l-l-f--o-r-d, I believe. -- who I think was 20 the acting ambassador at the time. 21 Q You said either. Does that mean there's somebody 22 else? 23 A It could have been someone who acted as the DCM, 24 and I don't remember who the DCM was at the time. 25 Q And this official cable would have been prepared 166 1 from notes taken by this commercial officer or officers? 2 A Yes, of course. 3 Q You did see them taking notes? 4 A No. I have seen officers take notes at meetings, 5 because they are the official reporters of the meeting, yes. 6 Q I see. Now, in terms of the unofficial notetakers 7 from Washington, of the Commerce Department, on the China 8 trade trip, the one we are discussing, 1994, one of them was 9 Melinda Yee, correct? 10 A When you say unofficial, I'm not sure what you 11 mean. 12 Q Well, you said official, so I assume that you're 13 referring to others as unofficial. If you want to use 14 another terminology, that's fine. 15 A I'm not sure how you're establishing Ms. Yee as a 16 notetaker. 17 Q You were aware at the time that she was taking 18 notes of these meetings, correct? 19 A I'm aware that we were instructed to write on the 20 scenario that Ms. Yee was a notetaker. 21 Q Who instructed you to write on the scenario that 22 Ms. Yee was a notetaker? 23 A My chain of command. 24 Q And who was that? 25 A Mr. Rothkopf, perhaps Ms. Patton. But scenarios 167 1 were -- had certain individuals identified as attending 2 meetings and certain individuals having a function in these 3 meetings. 4 Q And Ms. Yee's function was notes? 5 A That's what the scenario said. 6 Q Where are those scenarios today? 7 A The scenarios are in the briefings. 8 Q And what is a scenario? 9 A A scenario lays out, for the Secretary, the what is 10 the meeting, who is he meeting with, when is the meeting, 11 what time is the meeting, where is the meeting, who will 12 attend the meeting, what the objective of the meeting is, and 13 what the overview of the meeting should be. 14 Q And these scenarios are then distributed in the 15 ordinary course to the persons who have responsibilities as 16 listed on the scenario? 17 A They're just -- they are included in the briefing 18 book, and the briefing book is distributed to mission 19 participants, including the U.S. Government delegation 20 participants. 21 Q This briefing book was distributed to Ms. Yee, 22 among others? 23 A I believe so. 24 Q Were there any other individuals who were encharged 25 to take notes at the meetings, or who you know did take notes 168 1 at the meetings? 2 A I don't know of any other individuals who took 3 notes at the meetings. 4 Q Were there individuals who recorded, through a tape 5 recorder or otherwise, what occurred during the meetings? 6 A Not that I recall. 7 Q Did you see Chinese officials taking notes during 8 the meetings? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you see business executives taking notes during 11 the meetings? 12 A Not that I recall. 13 Q Now, these meetings generally contained more than 14 one of the business executives, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q Did they break down according to sector? I mean, 17 was there a meeting, say, for telecommunications companies, 18 and then a meeting for nuclear reactor providers, energy 19 providers? 20 A As I recall, the Secretary had a number of separate 21 meetings in which it would be relevant to particular mission 22 members and not all. 23 For instance, energy meetings, power generation. 24 And so thus, the companies on here who were focused on power 25 generation would attend such a meeting. The same for 169 1 telecommunications. 2 Q So there were different meetings for different 3 sectors? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And the Secretary obviously attended all of those 6 meetings, because he couldn't attend more than one at a time? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And Ms. Yee would go with him to those meetings? 9 A I don't recall whether Ms. Yee was at those 10 meetings. 11 Q You just know she was assigned to take notes? 12 A I would have to look at the scenarios to see 13 whether her name was actually on -- on the -- on the 14 scenario, because I actually don't recall which meetings she 15 was put down as a notetaker and which she was not -- and 16 those she was not. 17 Q But you do know she was put down as a notetaker on 18 some meetings? 19 A That's my recollection. But I would have to look 20 at the briefing book to -- and I believe you have a copy of 21 it. 22 Q Do you remember meetings that you participated in 23 specifically with regard to telecommunications? 24 A No. 25 Q Or satellites? 170 1 A No. I participated in only several meetings, not 2 all of the meetings. 3 Q which ones did you participate in? 4 A I think I participated in the meeting with Wee. I 5 participated in the meeting -- 6 Q What was that meeting about, what sector? 7 A Just in general. 8 Q Just general? 9 A Trade issues, in general. The meeting -- the 10 dinners, lunches, and there could have been one or two other 11 bilaterals that I don't recall. 12 But I did not attend the meeting with President 13 Jiang, nor the meeting with Vice Premier Zou or Vice Premier 14 Li. 15 Q Did you attend any meetings with industry sectors? 16 A No. 17 Q Now, on the trade mission to China, you are aware 18 that, after these general meetings on industry sectors where 19 more than one business executive was present, that then 20 sometimes individual business executives would have their own 21 meetings with Chinese officials, correct? 22 A Yes, correct. In fact, the embassy, I believe, 23 arranged these meetings. 24 Q Where did these meetings take place? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm going to object to 171 1 this. Meetings between the companies and Chinese officials, 2 that seems to go beyond the scope of Department of Commerce 3 documents. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask the follow-up question. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please do so. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q During any of these meetings between company 8 officials and Chinese officials, one-on-one meetings, I take 9 it that sometimes Commerce Department employees would attend? 10 A I really don't know, and I don't recall being 11 informed as to who was attending a meeting or whether they 12 were meetings that were conducted simply between, just 13 between the companies and the Chinese. I don't know. 14 Q Do you know what kind of documentation exists where 15 we could learn that, with regard to the trade mission to 16 China? 17 A I can only, you know, make -- offer speculation. 18 Perhaps the U.S. and Foreign Commercial Service, in its 19 course of planning this mission, had some -- something 20 indicating schedules of private sector people, but that's my 21 speculation. 22 Q And that's part of the Commerce Department, 23 correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And those schedules would relate to this trade 172 1 mission, correct, in China? 2 A Correct. 3 Q Where would those schedules now be located today? 4 A I have no idea. 5 Q Would they generally be located in Washington, or 6 are they located overseas? 7 A They're probably -- if they exist and they were 8 created, I, you know -- they would be probably in Beijing. 9 Q In the embassy in Beijing? 10 A I don't know that those documents exist, but if 11 they existed -- but this is all purely speculation on my part 12 -- the people who created them would have been the Commercial 13 Service. 14 Q Which works for the Department of Commerce? 15 A Correct. 16 Q Now, do you know whether the Commercial Service, 17 whether they ever searched their documents in response to 18 Judicial Watch's FOIA request? 19 A They never conferred with me about the search, but 20 they were tasked to conduct a search as we were tasked to 21 conduct a search. 22 Q How do you know that? 23 A Because I understand that the request for the 24 search went to the entire department. 25 Q So you don't know specifically whether it ever went 173 1 to the Foreign Commercial Service overseas, just you know 2 generally -- 3 A I recall -- 4 Q -- in principal -- 5 A Yeah. 6 Q -- that everyone in the Department was asked to 7 search, correct? 8 A I recall colleagues affirming to me in Beijing, 9 colleagues that I have in Beijing affirming to me that they 10 were conducting a search at the request of the Department, 11 pursuant to FOIA requests. 12 Q But not Judicial Watch's FOIA requests, 13 necessarily? 14 A I don't know whether -- I don't recall whether they 15 said it was Judicial Watch or some other FOIA. 16 Q You just know that, from time to time, they did 17 conduct searches concerning FOIA requests generally? 18 A Correct. 19 Q But you don't have any specific knowledge that they 20 ever searched with regard to Judicial Watch's FOIA request, 21 correct? 22 A I don't have any -- other than the search that's 23 going on now, I don't recall them mentioning specifically who 24 had asked for the FOIA request. 25 Q Do you know whether these Foreign Commercial 174 1 Services are now searching for the documents originally 2 requested by Judicial Watch? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. This goes to the search 4 that's being carried on right now, Your Honor, it's not 5 relevant. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I think it's a reasonable question. 7 MS. BRASWELL: It's not relevant. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is this gentleman a member of 9 -- he's not a member of this Commercial Service, is he? 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why would there be any reason to 12 suppose he would even know the status of the search? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know. I thought it was 14 harmless question. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you know anything about this 16 investigation, other than what you've heard from someone 17 else? How do you know anything about that, what's being done 18 by that particular section of the Department of Commerce? 19 THE WITNESS: Because I speak with my colleagues in 20 Beijing three or four times a week. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And so you have had occasion to 22 speak to them? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And they tell you they're doing a 25 search? 175 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q For Judicial Watch? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: For Judicial Watch? 6 THE WITNESS: Correct. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I guess we have to change the tape. 8 Thank you. 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 10 4:02. 11 (A discussion was held off the record.) 12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 4:04. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did any of these business executives recount to the 15 Department of Commerce what went on during these individual 16 sessions with Chinese officials? 17 A To my recollection, yes. 18 Q And they did that in writing? 19 A No, I don't recall seeing any documents in writing 20 to that effect. 21 Q Who did they recount to? 22 A The instances I recall were two. 23 Q And which companies were involved? 24 A McDonnell Douglas, Chrysler, and then there was one 25 session with all of the mission participants present, and 176 1 Secretary Brown. 2 Q These recounts, for lack of a better word, were 3 doing during meetings, debriefing sessions after the trade 4 trip? 5 A No. The first two companies I mentioned were 6 focused on the status of their contract negotiations, and the 7 sort of touch-and-go nature of those negotiations. 8 Q Where did it occur, in China? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And present at those meetings, taking notes, was 11 Melinda Yee? 12 A I have no idea whether she was present. You know, 13 I certainly didn't see her. 14 Q But there were people taking notes at those 15 meetings? 16 A Well, typically, the people that were interested in 17 these issues, one was Ira Sockowitz, and because it involved 18 whether or not the Department would embrace and recognize a 19 particular contract, officially. 20 Q Did you see Sockowitz taking notes? 21 A I don't recall him taking notes. I know that 22 documents were produced indicating the status of each 23 contract. 24 Q But you do recall people taking notes of these 25 debriefing sessions in China? 177 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q You do recall seeing people with notepads at the 3 meetings? 4 A No, I don't. 5 Q Do you know whether there was ever any discussion 6 about individual meetings between Bernard Schwartz of Loral 7 and Chinese officials -- 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q -- discussions with Commerce Department people 11 present? 12 A I don't know whether Mr. Loral had a separate 13 meeting with -- 14 Q You mean Mr. Schwartz? 15 A I'm sorry, what did I say? Ms. Schwartz had a 16 separate meeting with any one of a number of Chinese 17 corporations dealing with satellite purchases or procurement. 18 And I have no recollection, nor do I know whether there were 19 any Commerce officials present for those meetings. 20 Q During the trade trip to China or otherwise, did 21 you ever see Ira Sockowitz in the presence of Bernard 22 Schwartz? 23 A I don't recall whether Mr. Sockowitz was actually 24 on the plane, on the way to China. If he was, then he would 25 have been in the presence of Mr. Schwartz. If he was not, 178 1 then he would not have been. And I don't recall any other 2 time when he was speaking with Mr. Schwartz. 3 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Mr. 4 Sockowitz, when he left the Department of Commerce, took 5 classified documents with him? 6 A No, I do not. 7 Q Have you read anything about that? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. What he knows from 9 reading about it is irrelevant. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to jog his 11 recollection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let me see. Do you have any 13 independent recollection whatsoever of Sockowitz taking 14 documents from the Department of Commerce, based on any 15 source whatsoever, including something you may have read, 16 heard, or seen? 17 THE WITNESS: I've read pieces in the press. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Other than that -- 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- do you have an independent -- 21 THE WITNESS: I do not. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Have there been any discussions that you know of 24 inside the Department of Commerce about Sockowitz having 25 taken documents from the Department? 179 1 A I -- I have a -- it's just a vague recollection of 2 -- and I don't remember who said this to me, but someone 3 saying "There's some concern about Sockowitz having taken 4 some information out of the Department." 5 And I -- but I don't -- it certainly wasn't in 6 writing, and I don't recall who said it, or what the context 7 was. 8 Q Have you seen anything in writing concerning an 9 investigation of Sockowitz taking documents out of the 10 Department? 11 A In the press or otherwise? 12 Q No, Department documents. 13 A No, I have not. 14 Q Have you had any contact with Ira Sockowitz in the 15 last two years? 16 A Two occasions. One, I was vacationing on a weekend 17 down in Ocean City, and I saw Mr. Sockowitz, coincidentally, 18 as I was coming out of a restaurant, and I was with my wife 19 and family. 20 And I think I -- it's vague to me, but I think I 21 recall Mr. Sockowitz asking me if I could be of assistance 22 with respect to China consulting, or various potential 23 clients, or other pursuits that he had an interest in. What 24 pursuits these were, I can't recall. But I recall vaguely 25 receiving a phone call. I returned the call. 180 1 In fact, I -- you know, it could have been that he 2 had just left. I think he went over to the Small Business 3 Administration. I don't know. But those were the ones that 4 stuck out in my mind. These are the ones that stick out in 5 my mind. 6 Q Did you commit to writing your conversation with 7 Mr. Sockowitz? 8 A No. 9 Q Did the Schornstein Company go on that trade trip 10 to China? 11 A (No response.) 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 13 reporter to mark as Exhibit 11. 14 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 11 was 15 marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Have you ever seen this document before? It's a 18 memorandum to Sally Painter from Jennifer Conowitz and Ira 19 Sockowitz dated July 18, 1994, Bates number 786 -- actually, 20 they're all stamped 786. But they consist of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 21 pages. Have you ever seen this document before? 22 A No, I don't recall seeing this document before. 23 Q Turn your attention to the fourth page. 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q Strike that. Turn to the fifth page, Number 5, the 181 1 Schornstein Company, Walter Schornstein, wherein is listed, 2 "Campaign Contributions, Schornstein Company and Walter 3 Schornstein have been reported in the press as one of the 4 biggest Democratic contributors in California and Schornstein 5 Company reportedly gave $312,785." 6 Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 7 or not one of the criteria for going on the trade trips was 8 campaign contributions? 9 A No. I've never seen the document, so I don't 10 -- no, it doesn't. It doesn't strike me as being one of the 11 criteria. 12 Q What was the role of Lauri Fitz-Pegado in the 1994 13 trade trip to China? 14 A Ms. Fitz-Pegado was the director general for the 15 United States and Foreign Commercial Service. She was part 16 of the senior delegation for the Secretary. 17 It was incumbent on her to ensure that the officers 18 at post, the commercial officers at post, Beijing, Shanghai, 19 Guangzhou, Hong Kong, all of the places the Secretary 20 visited, that staffing was adequate and that there were other 21 things that she did to ensure that at least her division was 22 supporting this mission in the proper way. 23 Q Ms. Pegado was a close confidant of Secretary 24 Brown, correct? 25 A That's my perception, yes. 182 1 Q And she traveled with him on virtually every trade 2 mission, correct? 3 A I would have no way of knowing whether it was 4 virtually every trade mission. She traveled on this trade 5 mission. 6 Q With regard to the trade mission to China, the 7 Secretary usually had her by his side, correct? 8 A She was certainly part of the group that traveled 9 with him from meeting to meeting. 10 Q And she participated in the various meetings in 11 China which you just discussed? 12 A Which meetings I just discussed? 13 Q All of them where the Secretary was present. 14 A Very likely, she was. 15 Q And at those meetings, you saw Ms. Pegado taking 16 notes, correct? 17 A No, I don't recall her taking notes. No. 18 Q Did she or Secretary Brown or anyone that 19 participated in these meetings bring laptop computers on the 20 trade trip to China? 21 A There were -- I recall that there were several 22 staff people who brought laptops, yes, but I don't recall 23 who. 24 Q Those laptops were the property of the Department 25 of Commerce, correct? 183 1 A Correct. 2 Q They would be assigned out to individuals to use 3 generally, or were they assigned just for the trade trips? 4 A They were assigned for individuals to use 5 generally. 6 Q In other words, you, Donald Forest, could ask for a 7 laptop to be assigned to you? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And you could keep that during your tenure at the 10 Department? 11 A No. 12 Q How did it work? 13 A Well, at least in my division, we have several 14 laptops, and if you're going no travel, no one else is using 15 it, you can borrow the laptop. 16 Q Do you have to sign it out? 17 A Informally. 18 Q How does informally work? 19 A Usually, it's kept in the Office of the Deputy 20 Assistant Secretary. My assumption is that the office 21 secretary knows in general who's got the -- who's got the 22 computer, the laptop. 23 Q Is there a signout sheet? 24 A Not that I recall. No, I don't remember signing a 25 signout sheet. 184 1 Q During the time of the China trade mission, how 2 many laptops were available to be signed out? 3 A Well, I don't recall -- 4 Q Just in your division? 5 A I don't recall any being signed out in particular. 6 Q Taken out. 7 A I think I took one of the Department's laptops. 8 Whether it was our division laptop or not, I don't recall. I 9 also recall not using the laptop, at all, and the reason was 10 because it didn't work well. 11 Each stop has a control room. Each control room 12 has five or six computers that are rented to produce 13 documents. And, thus, we would use the control room 14 computers, because they're a lot more efficient. 15 Q What do you mean, each stop has computers? I 16 didn't understand. 17 A Each -- each place the Secretary went had a control 18 room. The control room would be a place an individual like 19 me spends most of their life on these missions, producing 20 documents, ensuring that the -- you know, whatever is needed 21 by the Secretary or whatever, is provided 22 Q Where are these control rooms located? 23 A They're located in the hotels where the Secretary 24 usually stays. 25 Q Where do the computers emanate from? 185 1 A I can't say. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I think what Mr. Klayman 3 means is, are all of these computers on a network so that, 4 for example, if you were in Peking, you could download your 5 files that were back in your office in D.C.? 6 THE WITNESS: No, they are not connected to another 7 one. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Good question. I was also interested in whether or 10 not, say, you were in Beijing, that these are computers that 11 are being supplied by Chinese entities for use while you were 12 in Beijing? 13 A That's a question -- I can't answer that question. 14 I -- I don't know whether the computers are rented, are from 15 the U.S. and Foreign Commercial Service. I don't know 16 whether the computers are rented locally. I have no idea. 17 Q Or whether they're from Chinese intelligence? 18 A I have no idea. It's not a question that I 19 usually -- 20 Q Do you know where the computers are today that your 21 entourage used when they went on the trade trip to China? 22 A I have no idea. 23 Q But there were several people that had taken out 24 laptop computers from the Department's headquarters in 25 Washington, and taken them on the trip, including yourself? 186 1 A Yes. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Forest, excuse me. But with 3 those computers that were in the control room there in the 4 foreign countries? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: When you finished using them and 7 you went on to your next stop, would you download what you 8 had put on the computer? 9 THE WITNESS: Typically, you would keep the 10 documents on a disk. Yes. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would they also be in the hard 12 drive of that computer? 13 THE WITNESS: Probably not. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Probably not? 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So, in other words, this was the 17 kind of thing where the Secretary would say, you know, "I 18 need a speech tonight," or "I need my toast, I'd like to 19 toast the Premier," somebody would run to the control room, 20 type it up, and get it back to the Secretary? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But by doing that, that person 23 would not necessarily connect through a network to any 24 computer networked back here in the States? 25 THE WITNESS: Correct. 187 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So basically, it went to the 2 printer? 3 THE WITNESS: Correct. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And when you left at the end of 5 the day, at the end of that stop, you would put a disk in, 6 download what you had used, and take it with you? 7 THE WITNESS: I can't speak for other officers -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What did you do? 9 THE WITNESS: -- but I would take the documents 10 with me. Again, you know, I should clarify here that there 11 is a prohibition about producing any documents on an 12 unsecured computer. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 14 THE WITNESS: And those are unsecured computers. 15 And none of the information we worked with was classified 16 information. It was all unclassified information. 17 So, by virtue of the fact that these briefing books 18 were left in rooms, you know, that's -- it's all 19 unclassified. So we -- 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Well, you don't know for a fact that people didn't 22 write memoranda of what had occurred at these various 23 meetings in China that contained some classified information; 24 you don't know that, do you? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and -- calls for 188 1 him to prove a negative. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think it's also -- you have to 3 speak to the witness's own knowledge. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What Mr. Klayman is saying is, in 6 light of you just said about the briefing books being in the 7 hotel library -- I'm sorry -- in the hotel room, the second 8 question that comes from that is, is it possible that the 9 briefing books contained classified information, on the basis 10 of what you saw of them? 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q But it's also my understanding, is it not -- 14 correct me if I'm wrong -- that anyone could go in and use 15 these computers to type in anything they wanted? They were 16 just for general use? Is that wrong? 17 A No, they were not for general use. They were for 18 staff use. 19 Q Right. 20 A Right. 21 Q And I could have gone in there, if I had had access 22 to classified information, as a Commerce Department official, 23 and typed it in that computer, and one would not know to this 24 day whether that information is still contained in that 25 computer? 189 1 A Well, I mean, I really can't speak to of that. I 2 mean, that's a lot of speculation. 3 Q And just to clarify, you don't know what became of 4 those computers in the control rooms? 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q Now, do you know whether or not the laptop 7 computers that were taken over by Commerce officials were 8 ever searched in response to Judicial Watch's FOIA request? 9 A Well, I did not use my laptop, so as far as the 10 laptop that I had at the time, there was nothing on the hard 11 drive that's responsive. 12 Whether any other individuals used their laptops 13 and downloaded them, I have no idea. 14 Q Do you know whether the Commerce Department ever 15 searched the laptops that were taken on the China trade trip 16 in response to Judicial Watch's FOIA request? 17 A I -- I -- the request that we received to be 18 responsive was to be inclusive, and to be inclusive meant all 19 documents produced, by whatever means. 20 Q But you don't remember a specific reference, "Make 21 sure you search laptops taken on trade trips"? You don't 22 remember that, do you? 23 A It could have been that such a request was made. I 24 don't recall whether such a request was made. 25 Q So as far as you know, no request was made? 190 1 A I don't recall. 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Where are -- 5 A I would also have to say there are two control 6 rooms. And this is important. One was for the business 7 people, and one was government. So the business people had 8 their own control room. 9 Q Were these control rooms in business centers of 10 hotels -- 11 A No. 12 Q -- where they were? 13 A No. 14 Q They were a block of rooms that were allocated for 15 this purpose? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Is there a central repository at the Commerce 18 Department where laptops are obtained and where they are sent 19 back after they are no longer needed? 20 A No. 21 Q If you want to get a laptop to use on a trade trip, 22 trade trips in question, where would you go? 23 A It's typically the domain and responsibility of the 24 regional division. At least in the country desks, it's the 25 regional division. In other words, in my area, it's the Asia 191 1 Pacific Division. In Europe, it would be the Europe 2 Division. 3 Q In your area, during the period in question, who 4 specifically would you contact to get access to a laptop? 5 A I don't recall who I asked for a laptop at the 6 time. I only recall that one existed, and there were perhaps 7 several that existed. 8 I only recall at the time the problem with the 9 laptops was that the batteries ran out on them so fast, that 10 they became useless. So, for me, it was not an option. 11 Q Well, my question was not whether they were 12 useless. My question was, who did you contact to get one? 13 Is there some way that we can find out who was in charge of 14 dispensing laptops during the relevant period? 15 A I don't recall. I -- the way that it often works 16 is whoever has the laptop last, you go to that person and 17 say: "Gee, can I use the laptop tonight?" "Can I use the 18 laptop on this trip?" And that's sort of how it works. 19 Q Were there any procedures or instructions for 20 erasing hard drives on laptops when you obtained them for 21 your own use? 22 A No. 23 Q So frequently, you would find a file with a lot of 24 documents prepared by different people? 25 A On laptops that I have used, I have found files, 192 1 yes. 2 Q Do you know whether any Government investigative 3 agency has ever requested laptops with regard to the trade 4 trips as part of their investigatory process? 5 A I -- not to my recollection. 6 Q Have you ever discussed John Huang with anyone from 7 the Department of Justice, other than your counsel in this 8 case? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why is that relevant? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: To see whether they may have some of 12 these materials. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who is the "they" in that 14 sentence? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: The investigatory authorities. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: We could then make a request of them. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What counsel wants to know, if I'm 19 interpreting him correctly, is, did you have any 20 conversations with investigative officials that would lead 21 you to believe that Mr. Huang gave those officials documents 22 which might be subject to this FOIA request? 23 THE WITNESS: You're going to have to make that 24 question -- you're going to have to clarify this question. I 25 mean, I have had conversations about Mr. Huang with other 193 1 investigative bodies. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: During the course of those 3 conversations, were you asked whether or not you had had 4 conversations with Mr. Huang, Mr. Huang indicated to you that 5 he had in his possession documents which might be subject to 6 a request? 7 THE WITNESS: No. No. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, can I ask who, 9 generically speaking, that he talked with? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In those conversations -- first of 11 all, I take it there were some conversations with 12 representatives of the United States Senate, and Senator 13 Thompson's committee? 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Were there representatives of the 16 Department of Justice other than Ms. Braswell and Mr. Hegyi 17 and the lawyers who have been handling the FOIA case? 18 THE WITNESS: I think I recall, but, you know, this 19 is some time ago. But I think I recall the FBI. I don't 20 recall specifically. I could be wrong. But I think the FBI. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you may have had conversations 22 with the FBI in which -- 23 THE WITNESS: Could be. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Listen to the question. You may 25 have had conversations with the FBI in which it appeared to 194 1 be the subject of their inquiry to be Mr. Huang's actions -- 2 THE WITNESS: Correct. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- or his possession of 4 documents? 5 THE WITNESS: Correct. That's correct. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And you saw these men's 7 credentials -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. But I -- you know, I 9 don't remember specifically, you know, if it was the FBI. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But apparently, it was some person 11 representing to be a law enforcement agent? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Could it have been the inspector general of the 15 Commerce Department? 16 A Could have been. I mean, it could have been the 17 inspector general and the FBI. It could have been the 18 inspector general alone. I don't -- I don't recall. 19 Q Did you discuss, if I may follow up on the Judge's 20 questions, anything about trade missions specifically with 21 these Government investigators? 22 A Well, yes. Yes, we did. When you say government, 23 do you also mean Congress? 24 Q Yes. 25 A Yes. 195 1 Q Okay. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you provide to them any documents about the 4 China trade trip? 5 A I think I provided to the Federal Bureau of 6 Investigation, Department of Justice several copies of the 7 briefing book that was done for this mission, and they were 8 returned to me. 9 Q Do you know whether that briefing book was provided 10 to Judicial Watch and the Court in this case? 11 A Yes. 12 Q How do you know that? 13 A Because I recall the submission that was made, I 14 think back in 1994. 15 Q You testified earlier that Secretary Brown 16 sometimes made notations in the briefing books. Do you know 17 whether the briefing book with Secretary Brown's notations 18 were produced? 19 A The briefing book that we -- that my office 20 provided was in our possession. I have no possession -- I 21 did not have any possession of the Secretary's own briefing 22 book. It was his staff who had possession of his briefing 23 book. 24 Q When you talked to these Federal agents, you're not 25 knowing who they were? 196 1 A I don't recall. 2 Q I'm not talking about Congress, the other Federal 3 agents. Was it this year, last year? 4 A I -- 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 THE WITNESS: Probably several years ago. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Has anyone ever approached you, any investigative 10 agency or individual, about documents which Nolanda Hill 11 claims to have seen evidencing campaign contributions in 12 exchange for seats on trade missions? 13 A No, I don't recall. The only thing I recall about 14 Nolanda Hill is press. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 16 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit, is it 12 that we're up 17 to? 18 This document consists of three pages, Bates 19 numbers 4581341, 4581339, 4582169. 20 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 12 was 21 marked for identification.) 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q And turning to the first page, this is a letter 24 from Terry McAuliffe to Melissa Moss dated July 25, 1994. 25 Have you ever seen this document before? 197 1 A No, I don't recall. 2 Q Do you know who Terry McAuliffe is? 3 A Yes, the name is familiar, but I can't place him in 4 his official capacity. 5 Q Can you place him in an unofficial capacity? 6 A I don't -- I -- 7 Q If I told you that he is one of the top Democratic 8 fundraisers, would that refresh your recollection? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you know whether Terry McAuliffe ever made 11 recommendations of individuals and companies to take on the 12 trade trip to China? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Do you recall anyone ever discussing whether or not 15 Terry McAuliffe was involved in who went on the trade trip to 16 China? 17 A No, I don't recall. 18 Q Turn to the third page. That's 4582169. This is a 19 document produced by the Democratic National Committee in the 20 course of various investigations. And It says at Paragraph 21 2, "Sally Painter at Commerce" -- you know who Sally Painter 22 was, don't you? 23 A Yes. 24 Q She was the assistant to Melissa Moss, correct? 25 A Yes. Yes. 198 1 Q In the Office of Business Liaison, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Where trade mission participants were initially 4 selected for presentation to Ron Brown, correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q "Sally Painter at Commerce called to ask for a list 7 of candidates for a trade mission to Russia. She needs an 8 initial list by tomorrow of 20 to 30 names. 9 "I explained to her that Laura and Richard and the 10 chairman were all out of town, and that we likely would have 11 additions early next week to this initial list to be 12 submitted tomorrow. 13 "She indicated that an addendum of additional names 14 would be submitted next week, but they wanted to get a first 15 look at names on Friday." 16 Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 17 or not the Democratic National Committee submitted lists of 18 names for trade mission participants to Russia or any other 19 trade mission subject to this case? 20 A No. I have no knowledge of the memo nor any 21 recollection of the DNC providing names. 22 Q Did you ever have any contact with the Democratic 23 National Committee while you've been at the Commerce 24 Department? 25 A I don't remember. 199 1 Q Do you think you might have? 2 A Could be, you know. But I don't remember. 3 Q Under what circumstances? 4 A Someone contacting me for particular kinds of 5 information. I honestly don't remember. I mean, you know, 6 it could be that they did. It could be that I don't know 7 that they were part of the DNC. 8 But I don't recall ever having a buck slip saying, 9 "This is a person from the Democratic National Committee 10 calling about China-related issues." 11 Q Is it possible that someone from the DNC has called 12 you suggesting that a particular person or company should be 13 taken on a trade trip? 14 A It's possible that any individual, that a number of 15 individuals could call me. Whether or not they're members of 16 the DNC, I don't recall. 17 Q Well, the question was, is it possible that someone 18 called you specifically recommending someone or some company 19 to go on a trade mission, such as China or Russia? 20 A Companies call me all the time recommending various 21 actions on behalf of these companies. 22 Q I'm specifically talking about trade missions. Is 23 it possible that someone called you on that? 24 A It's possible, but I don't recall. 25 Q I take it your office keeps telephone message 200 1 slips, does it not? 2 A No. 3 Q If you're not in the office, or if you can't take a 4 call, during the period in question of this case, how is it 5 recorded? 6 A It's recorded on a small, little piece of paper and 7 given to individuals, but it is not recorded on a central 8 phone log. 9 Q But you have these little telephone message books 10 with -- 11 A No. We have small yellow pads with no carbon 12 copies, where the individual message is taken and provided to 13 individuals, but there is no permanent record of the phone 14 call. 15 Q During 1994, what was your extension number at the 16 Department of Commerce? 17 A 482-5527. 18 Q 5527. Okay. And is there a computer log of 19 incoming calls to your extension kept by the Department of 20 Commerce or the telephone companies which serve it? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. This is unrelated to 22 documents. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me ask you this, Mr. Klayman. 24 Have you ever asked for such computer logs as part of the 25 FOIA request or does the computer log fall within the 201 1 existing -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: It would fall within the existing 3 FOIA request. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why so, Mr. Klayman? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Because we asked for any and all 6 documents that refer or relate in any way to trade missions. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In light of that representation, 8 I'll overrule the objection. 9 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of the -- of any 10 logs requested by the Department. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q No. My question was, are you aware of whether or 13 not Department computers can record incoming calls to your 14 extension? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection, Your Honor. That 16 doesn't indicate that these would be calls that would be 17 related to trade missions. If they have simply a -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah, but it might relate to the 19 question of whether or not there exist documents which would 20 evidence phone calls which were made to the Department of 21 Commerce by the DNC with reference to whether or not certain 22 people should be invited to go on trade missions. 23 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of any such 24 information being recorded by computer or otherwise. 25 202 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Well, my question was ever narrower. I'm just 3 trying, for purposes of discovery, to see whether Department 4 computers can record the telephone number of an incoming 5 call. Do you know whether that's possible or not? 6 A Only if the person receiving the call types in the 7 information. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Types in? 9 THE WITNESS: Types in the information, and sends 10 it to you, via e-mail, to say "Such-and-such a person called 11 you, here's the message." 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q No, actually, my question was narrower than that. 14 My question was whether -- but I will ask that question as 15 well after this -- whether Department computers record 16 automatically, when someone calls you, what the calling 17 number is? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you know whether that's the case or not? 20 A In my office, no, computers don't facilitate phone 21 calls at all. 22 Q That's not my question. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The question is this. Are you 24 aware the Department of Commerce has a system which can 25 accomplish either of two things: that when a call is made to 203 1 your office, the computer registers who has made the call and 2 keeps that in its memory -- 3 THE WITNESS: No, because the computers -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- or the second way would be you 5 make the call from your office and the computer logs the 6 person to whom you made the call. To your knowledge, does 7 the system create that information? 8 THE WITNESS: I have no -- I have no way of 9 knowing. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And you have no way of knowing whether the 12 computer, if it doesn't record the individual him or herself, 13 records the phone number that you called? 14 A Correct. 15 Q Did you ever receive e-mail from the Democratic 16 National Committee concerning the trade mission to China or 17 any other trade mission under suit in this case? 18 A Not to my knowledge. 19 Q You don't know one way or the other? 20 A I don't recall receiving any e-mails from the DNC. 21 Q Have you ever sent e-mails to the DNC? 22 A Not that I recall. 23 Q Do you know whether the Commerce Department ever 24 received lists from the DNC of participants on trade missions 25 to Belgium? 204 1 A I have no idea. 2 Q Have you ever had contact with a Rita Lewis? 3 A Not to my recollection. 4 Q Do you know who Rita Lewis is? 5 A I do not. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 7 reporter to mark as Exhibit 12 -- 13. I'm sorry. This is a 8 document to Melissa Moss. 9 (Forest Deposition Exhibit 13 was 10 marked for identification.) 11 MS. BRASWELL: That's at Tab 1? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Counsel, would you distribute 13 those, please. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q This is a document to Melissa Moss from Sally 17 Painter concerning OBL weekly activities, dated August 6, 18 1993. It consists of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 pages. Have you 19 ever seen this document before? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Turning to Page 2, have you ever -- do you know who 22 a Rick Boylan is of the Democratic National Committee? 23 A The name is familiar, but I don't. No, I do not. 24 Q Down at the bottom, Subsection II(d), "Business 25 Congressional District List: 1. We contacted Rick Boylan of 205 1 the DNC about the possibility of creating a list of 2 businesses within each CD." 3 Do you know what "CD" refers to? 4 A Congressional district. 5 Q "Rick ran the idea past Alice Travis, director of 6 intergovernmental and DNC affairs, and she balked at it being 7 too cumbersome on DNC staff. The list would be a good 8 resource. 9 "However, John is going ahead with creating a list 10 of California businesses, since the state has become a major 11 project for RHB." That's Ronald H. Brown, correct? 12 A Those are his initials. 13 Q Okay. "Do you think we should have Rob Stein 14 request that the DNC start compiling a list for other key 15 states? For example, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, et cetera." 16 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 17 or not the Democratic National Committee provided lists of 18 companies and individuals to take on trade trips? 19 A I -- no, because I'm not familiar with this 20 document and I was not involved in the preparation of any 21 lists. 22 Q Look to the bottom of that page, Page 3: "C. 23 PEC Nominations." Do you know what PEC stands for? 24 A President's Export Council. 25 Q President's Export Council? 206 1 A Mm-hmm. 2 Q And it says: "1. A table chart has been completed 3 for the list of recommendations to the PEC. We submit the 4 list to the White House pending appropriate approval." 5 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 6 or not the DNC provided lists, generally, to the Commerce 7 Department, of businesses? 8 A No. 9 Q Turn to the last page of this document, Part 10 XII(f): 11 "I'll be meeting with Eric Silden of the DNC on 12 January 24th to discuss key business types that we want for 13 the database and the other interactions that should take 14 place." 15 Do you know who Eric Silden is? 16 A The name is familiar, but I don't know who he is. 17 Q How do you think you came to learn of the name? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Through discussions with the Commerce Department? 20 A Don't recall. 21 Q Eric Silden works -- worked for the Democratic 22 National Committee. You knew that, did you not? 23 A No, I did not. 24 Q Are you aware, does this refresh your recollection 25 as to whether or not lists of trade mission participants were 207 1 provided by the DNC to the Commerce Department? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you ever have a conversation with Melissa Moss 4 about how trade mission participants were selected? 5 A Were selected or will be selected? 6 Q Were selected during the period relevant to this 7 lawsuit -- trade missions to China, Russia, South Africa, 8 South America, India. 9 A No. I had conversations with her about the 10 criteria that they would like to have to evaluate possible 11 mission participants. 12 Q You were aware -- I'm sorry. 13 A We have -- I've provided that -- that testimony. 14 Q You were aware that Ms. Moss, before joining the 15 Department of Commerce, worked at the Democratic National 16 Committee, correct? 17 A My general recollection is that yes -- 18 Q She told you that, correct? 19 A No. I remember reading it. 20 Q Did she tell you that she took lists of donors at 21 the Democratic National Committee to the Commerce Department 22 and was using them to select trade mission participants? 23 A No. 24 Q Have you ever had any contact with an individual by 25 the name of Marvin Rosen? 208 1 A I don't recall. 2 Q You may have? 3 A I don't recall. 4 Q He is an attorney with the law firm Greenberg, 5 Traurd in Miami and Washington. Does that refresh your 6 recollection? 7 A No. 8 Q He was the Democratic National Committee finance 9 chair during the period leading up to the 1996 elections. 10 Does that refresh your recollection? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you ever had any contact with a Richard 13 Sullivan of the Democratic National Committee? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q With a Joseph Sandler of the Democratic National 16 Committee? 17 A Don't recall. 18 Q You can't remember one way or the other? 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q A Donald Fowler of the Democratic National 21 Committee? 22 A No. 23 Q Christopher Dodd of the Democratic National 24 Committee? 25 A No. 209 1 Q Before the Clinton Administration was elected in 2 1992, do you know of any practice at the Commerce Department 3 of taking political donors on trade trips? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, beyond the scope. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to establish a time 7 in practice. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Time in practice of what? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Of whether this was the ordinary 10 course of business. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, see if you can relate it to 12 the documentation. How long have you been with the 13 Department of Commerce? 14 THE WITNESS: Since 1984. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In the period of time prior to the 16 1992 election, did you ever see any documents relating to the 17 topic counsel is looking at? 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever have any discussions about the trade 22 missions that are the subject of this case with any 23 Department of Commerce press people, such as Ann Lazato, Jill 24 Shooker, others that handle press activities? 25 A Yes. 210 1 Q Who did you have conversations with? 2 A Well, I would have conversations with Jill Shooker. 3 I would have conversations with Ann Lazato. But my 4 conversations were focused on mission results, mission 5 information. 6 Q Well, specifically, did you have any discussions 7 with them about the charges made by Judicial Watch, that 8 seats on trade missions were being sold for campaign 9 contributions? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. It doesn't relate to 11 documents. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The question is whether you had 13 conversations with a press representative for the Department 14 of Commerce about the allegations being made by Judicial 15 Watch? Is that the question? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why is it relevant? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Because they may have recorded what 19 actually took place during the trade missions. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you recall any such 21 conversations? 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q You remember the tragic day that Ron Brown died, 25 correct? 211 1 A Yes. 2 Q April 3, 1996. Correct? 3 A I -- I think that was the date, yes. 4 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not an 5 individual or individuals went into his office and removed 6 documents? 7 A I have no knowledge of that. 8 Q Have you ever heard that discussed at the Commerce 9 Department? 10 A Not at the Commerce Department, no. 11 Q Have you heard it discussed elsewhere? 12 A I think I may have seen it in the press. 13 Q Do you know whether any documents were actually 14 removed from Secretary Brown's office after his death, and 15 shredded? 16 A I would have no knowledge of that. 17 Q Have you ever heard that discussed at the Commerce 18 Department? 19 A No. 20 Q During the time that you've been at the Commerce 21 Department during the relevant period of this case, was there 22 any policy on shredding documents that you know of, any 23 policy or guidelines? 24 A Any policy about shredding documents? 25 Q Yes. 212 1 A No. 2 Q Was there any policy on whether or not cable 3 traffic from overseas containing classified information 4 should be shredded? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you know whether or not John Huang, when he 7 worked at the Department, asked his secretary to shred 8 cables? 9 A No, I do not. 10 Q Do you know whether or not John Huang left the 11 Department of Commerce with Commerce Department documents? 12 A I do not. 13 Q Do you know whether or not John Huang had access to 14 a laptop computer when he worked at the Commerce Department? 15 A I do not. 16 Q Do you know whether or not John Huang sent e-mails 17 outside of the Department of Commerce during the period that 18 he worked there? 19 A I do not. 20 Q Do you know whether or not John Huang kept 21 classified documents in a safe in his office? 22 A I don't know where the safe for that office was. 23 Q But you knew he had a save? 24 A I only knew -- I only know that classified 25 documents were available to Chuck Misener and John Huang. I 213 1 don't know where they kept the documents. 2 Q Have you ever heard of a company called Iridium? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Are you aware that Lauri Fitz-Pegado and several 5 people in her office who were employed during the period 6 relevant to this case left after Ron Brown's death and went 7 to work for Iridium? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Just laying a foundation, Your Honor. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Beyond the scope. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What is the next question that 12 you're laying the foundation for? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Are you aware of any documents, any classified 15 documents, that have been transferred from the Department of 16 Commerce to Iridium concerning the trade trip to China? 17 A Concerning the trip to China? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Please repeat the question. 20 Q Are you aware of any classified documents that have 21 Ms. Fitz-Pegado or others in her office took with them when 22 they left the Commerce Department, concerning the trade trip 23 to China, and went to work for Iridium? 24 A No. 25 Q During the trade trip to China, were there any 214 1 meetings that referred or related in any way to Iridium? 2 A My recollection is there was -- there was some 3 information. 4 Whether it was in the briefing materials, whether 5 it was produced by the Bureau of Export Administration 6 because of licensing concerns -- I don't recall the context, 7 nor do I recall who produced the document, but I think I 8 remember in general that Iridium was discussed. 9 Q With Chinese officials? 10 A Discussed with Department officials. Whether it 11 was discussed with Chinese officials, I can't recall. I 12 would have to look at the documents to confirm to myself that 13 that, in fact, was the case. 14 Q Are you aware of any meetings that Secretary Brown 15 had in and around the time period of the trade trip to China 16 with an individual by the name of Huang Zhun from China, a 17 Chinese official? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, to the extent this asks 19 for questions not related to the trade mission. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Does that gentleman have some role 21 in -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, he -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- as a person with whom they met 24 in China? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: According to Nolanda Bill, this 215 1 individual discussed lowering the barriers on transmission of 2 encryption technology to the Chinese, which would be relevant 3 to telecommunications. 4 MS. BRASWELL: None of which is relevant to the 5 destruction of documents or the creation of documents in this 6 case. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That is a foundation for a second 8 question? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What is the next question? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The next question is, was anyone present during 13 those meetings that he knows of that took notes at those 14 meetings? 15 A What meeting are you referring to? 16 Q Huang Zhun reportedly had a meeting with Ron Brown 17 where he discussed efforts by the Chinese to have barriers to 18 transfer encryption technology lowered at the Commerce 19 Department, to be able to transfer to them encryption 20 technology. 21 A When did the meeting take place? 22 Q In and around the period of the trade trip to 23 China. Do you know of such a meeting? 24 MS. BRASWELL: The same objection, Your Honor, 25 unless this relates to the trade mission. 216 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's just ask him, did you know 2 of any such meeting occurring during the trade mission in 3 late August to mid-September of 1994 where Secretary Brown 4 discussed with the Chinese official whose name you just heard 5 lowering the barrier of encryption on certain documents? 6 Were you aware that such a meeting took place? 7 THE WITNESS: I was not aware that such a meeting 8 took place and that, in that meeting, discussion of 9 encryption technologies was discussed. I was not aware of 10 that specific meeting. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Yeah, but you're tying the two. Are you aware of a 13 meeting Huang Zhun and Secretary Brown, by itself? 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That is, did you know of a meeting 15 between Ron Brown and that gentleman in China? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: In the United States. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In the United States. 18 THE WITNESS: For the period prior to the 19 mission -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. 21 THE WITNESS: -- during the mission? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Prior to the mission. 23 THE WITNESS: Not prior to the mission. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: During the mission? 25 THE WITNESS: Not during the mission. 217 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: After the mission? 2 THE WITNESS: I participated in a meeting with 3 Huang Zhun after the mission. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: During the course of that meeting, 5 was there any reference to the creation of documents prior to 6 the trade mission or in preparation for the trade mission in 7 1994 to China? 8 THE WITNESS: You'll have to repeat that again. 9 I'm sorry. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: During the course of the 11 meeting -- 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah, right. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- between the Secretary and this 14 gentleman, do you recall any references to documents that may 15 have been in existence prior to October 20, 1994, the date of 16 the FOIA request, or prior to the trade mission itself? 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did the gentlemen discuss 19 documents that were in existence prior to those two dates? 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Was there more than one meeting between Ron 24 Brown and Huang Zhun that you were present? 25 A No. Just one. 218 1 Q And that meeting took place in the Secretary's 2 office? 3 A It took place in the Secretary's office. 4 Q And no one else was present? 5 A Uh -- I'm trying to recall who was present for the 6 meeting. I think Mr. Huang was present at the meeting. 7 I remember receiving a call for me to run upstairs; I had 20 8 minutes' notice, I had no prior knowledge of the meeting. I 9 was asked to run upstairs and brief the Secretary immediately 10 about issues that he could raise with Huang Zhun. 11 Huang Zhun at the time was the chairman -- was one 12 of the -- was a financial figure in China, may still very 13 well be a very substantial financial figure. So that was the 14 context of the meeting. 15 Q At the time of the meeting, Huang Zhun was also 16 reported to be an official in the Chinese military, correct? 17 A Do I know that he was an official affiliated with 18 corporations that were part of the Chinese or were in some 19 way related to the Chinese military? 20 Q Yes. 21 A Do I know that? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q At the time of the meeting, John Huang was no 25 longer working at the Democratic National Committee, correct? 219 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. Again, this 2 is way beyond the scope of discovery. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, what I'm trying to identify is 4 whether they discussed, as Your Honor asked, specific matters 5 that would fall within the scope of our FOIA request. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me see if I understand. This 7 gentleman that you've mentioned whose name I have difficulty 8 pronouncing -- 9 THE WITNESS: Huang Zhun. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- he was with the DNC at one 11 point? 12 THE WITNESS: Not Huang Zhun. No. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: John Huang. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: John Huang. Now, this other 15 gentleman you were talking about, he had a meeting with 16 Secretary Brown? 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But that meeting was after you got 19 back from China in September of 1994? 20 THE WITNESS: My recollection is it was after the 21 mission. I could be wrong, it could have been before the 22 mission, but I do remember specifically the context and being 23 asked to provide a briefing and attend the meeting. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So then you went to the meeting 25 and you provided the briefing. 220 1 THE WITNESS: I provided the Secretary with my 2 thoughts about what he should raise. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And you can't remember as you sit 4 there whether that was before or after the mission to China 5 in 1994? 6 THE WITNESS: I honestly don't recall, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. The next question then 8 would be when you did that briefing, did you use any notes? 9 THE WITNESS: No, I think we basically did a verbal 10 briefing for the Secretary. I had no time. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. After the briefing was 12 over, did you memorialize anything you told the Secretary 13 contemporaneously in a memorandum? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you take any handwritten notes 16 during the meeting? 17 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Anything else, Mr. Klayman? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did Mr. Huang take any notes? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q Did Mr. Huang Zhun take any notes, in Chinese or 23 otherwise? 24 A I don't think so. 25 Q Did Mr. Huang communicate with Mr. Haung Zhun in 221 1 Chinese from time to time? 2 A No. Again, my recollection -- I don't recall 3 whether John was there or not. 4 Q Was encryption technology discussed during that 5 meeting? 6 A No. 7 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection, Your Honor. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me tell you why it's 9 relevant. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He answered it no, so let's move 11 on. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Was lowering barriers to transfer of high 14 technology generally discussed during that meeting? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll allow it. 17 Was there such a discussion, yes or no? Do you 18 remember? 19 THE WITNESS: Well, you just -- you just allowed 20 the objection -- 21 MS. BRASWELL: The judge overruled me. 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, I see. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Were there any such discussions, 24 yes or no? 25 THE WITNESS: No. 222 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever been questioned about this meeting by 3 any investigative body or individual? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Besides Judicial Watch and the court. 7 MS. BRASWELL: He sustained it. The judge 8 sustained it. 9 You need to listen to whether he overrules it or 10 sustains. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: This would let us know, Your Honor, 12 whether they have any documents, so -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Then let's do it 14 right. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you recall ever providing any 17 documents about that meeting to anyone purporting to 18 represent a law enforcement agency? 19 THE WITNESS: I never provided any documents. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did any companies associated or related by Huang 23 Zhun participate in the China trade mission? 24 A Not that I recall. 25 Q Did anyone know about this meeting between you, 223 1 Huang Zhun, and Secretary Brown other than yourself and those 2 two other people? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: How would he know that? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: He may have talked to somebody else 6 about it, another source of information. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you tell anybody you were 8 going to see the Secretary? Did you leave a note that you 9 were going somewhere to see him, make an e-mail to anyone? 10 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I may have phoned 11 someone. I don't recall. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, in writing. Do you remember 13 doing anything in writing? 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason this is important, 16 Your Honor, if I may -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, what more do you want to ask 18 him? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I was thinking maybe it would 20 be helpful to know why it's important to us. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Please continue. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason this is important is 23 because based on communications with Nolanda Hill, during 24 that conversation was discussed the issue of encryption 25 technology and lowering export barriers. 224 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason it's important is because 3 Ira Sockowitz removed from the Commerce Department classified 4 encryption materials and CIA reports with regard to three 5 countries, China, Russia, and India. Those three countries 6 are subject to trade missions under our FOIA requests. And 7 it's important because going on this trade mission to China 8 were various high tech companies, including the companies who 9 were involved in telecommunications and satellite technology, 10 where encryption technology was very helpful for them to be 11 able to do business with the Chinese. So it's all related in 12 one big package here, and that's what we're trying to get at. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But -- 14 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor -- 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me. 16 What does that have to do with the production of 17 documents by this gentleman or his observing documents 18 produced by anyone else? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, just whether he knows of any 20 such documents recording matters that would be responsive to 21 our FOIA requests or whether he knows of others who have any 22 such information. That may either be the documents 23 themselves or -- and this is the important part -- which may 24 lead to information which could result in the discovery of 25 such documents. 225 1 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, may I just point out 2 here that there's no FOIA request for documents pertaining to 3 encryption information. The FOIA request goes to trade 4 missions, so Mr. Klayman is trying to use this as a means of 5 discovering information on other subjects. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What I thought he was trying to 7 pursue -- I thought what his point was had to do with the 8 fact reported in Judge Lamberth's opinion that one gentleman 9 named Sockowitz removed classified information from the 10 Department of Commerce and that information, from what we 11 could tell, seems to have something to do with encryption 12 technology. 13 MS. BRASWELL: That's correct, Your Honor. 14 However, the opinion does not go on to discuss whether the 15 documents that were removed were in fact responsive to the 16 FOIA request because whether or not classified documents were 17 removed from an agency is not necessarily relevant in this 18 FOIA case; it's only whether or not documents that were 19 responsive to his request were removed. That's the only 20 thing that's relevant. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The problem with that, 22 Ms. Braswell, is we can't split a circle. We don't know what 23 Sockowitz took. 24 MS. BRASWELL: Well, in fact, my understanding is 25 that those documents were in fact retrieved, they were looked 226 1 through to see what was responsive, and so that's been taken 2 care of. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: They have been taken care of to 4 your satisfaction, Mr. Klayman? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Those documents actually, Your Honor, 6 are in the possession of Judge Lamberth, as well as under 7 lock and key at the SBA, as well as in the possession of the 8 CIA, and there are documents on the record to the best of my 9 recollection, I am virtually certain, which concede, coming 10 from the Justice Department, Mr. Hegyi at the time, that some 11 of those documents were responsive to Judicial Watch's FOIA 12 requests. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And Mr. Hegyi so conceded? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I believe so. I'll see if I can -- 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And that's the relationship to the 16 encryption technology? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: That is what we're not absolutely 18 sure, which of the subset of documents is responsive and 19 which is not. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: See if you can frame the question 21 as carefully and precisely as you can, and let's see if we 22 can be -- finish this up, if we can. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Try it for a second and see where 25 we go. 227 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Pardon? 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Try it as carefully and precisely 3 as you can. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are there persons that you -- other than Mr. Huang 7 and other than Ron Brown who have knowledge of this meeting 8 that you had with Huang Zhun? 9 MS. BRASWELL: I raise the same objection, Your 10 Honor. I'm not sure that question is any different than the 11 one that started our entire conversation. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: This is related now to 13 discoverability, as I understand it, leading to whether or 14 not -- the nature of the documents that Sockowitz took with 15 him when he left the department. 16 MS. BRASWELL: I'm sorry, the nature of the 17 documents what? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That Sockowitz took with him when 19 he left the Department of Commerce. Isn't that the point 20 counsel is making? 21 MS. BRASWELL: But they're back. I mean, what is 22 the relevance of that? They're back, the judge has copies of 23 all of those documents, so I don't see what else there is to 24 explore on that particular issue. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me add something else in the 228 1 equation, just to sort of proffer, is that, yes, the 2 documents that were in Sockowitz's safe are now in the 3 Court's possession; however, we know that Sockowitz and 4 Ginger Lew were close confidants of John Huang. We know that 5 John Huang was in on this meeting. We know that John Huang 6 is reported to have passed classified information to the 7 Chinese; Bob Woodward reported that, and others. And we have 8 reason to believe that among the documents that were passed 9 may have been the documents, copies of the documents, that 10 were taken by Sockowitz. That may be the same possibility, 11 given all of the circumstantial evidence. So that's the 12 importance of this. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So therefore you want to ask this 14 gentleman whether or not anyone was at the meeting to 15 ascertain whether or not there may be other people who have 16 information about the meeting and particularly any documents 17 that were either generated at the meeting or given to others 18 after the meeting was over? Is that it? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, well, the factual question was 20 who knew of the meeting, just so we have that information 21 that we can follow up on discovery if the Court allows us to. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 23 Do you know -- to the best of your recollection, 24 was anyone else in the Department of Commerce aware that you 25 had gone to that meeting? Other than the participants of the 229 1 meeting. 2 THE WITNESS: I honestly don't recall. It could be 3 that Ms. Patton knew. I may have informed her, but I don't 4 remember. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Before the fact or after the fact? 6 THE WITNESS: After the fact. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, at the meeting, this 8 discussion, did Sockowitz's name come up at all? 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did the general topic of 11 encryption technology come up at all? 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did the issue of satellites come up? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He just answered it no. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Other than being here today and my asking you 20 questions about it as well as the Court, have you ever 21 answered any questions about this meeting with anyone? 22 A About the Huang Zhun meeting? 23 Q Yes. 24 A Yes. 25 Q And who did you answer the questions with? 230 1 A To Senator Thompson's committee. Senator 2 Thompson's investigators. 3 Q Do you remember who those people were? 4 A I honestly -- I don't remember their names in 5 particular, but there were two -- or three. One representing 6 the minority, one representing the majority -- two 7 representing the majority. 8 Q Michael Mattigan, was he one? 9 A Could have been. 10 Q A Mr. Baron on the minority site? 11 A Baron? 12 Q Does that ring a bell? 13 A No. 14 Q And other than Mr. Thompson's committee, have you 15 ever been asked questions about this meeting by anyone else? 16 A I don't recall whether the FBI asked me about this 17 meeting. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, there's a line of 19 testimony that I want to get into which will be more than 20 five minutes, so I didn't know if you wanted to adjourn now 21 or just keep rolling. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's fine. Let me just give you 23 a proposal. There is somebody waiting for me. I've got to 24 make a presentation tonight at 5:30. I can go up and do what 25 I've got to do and get back, but I have to leave at 6:00. 231 1 If you were to give me five minutes at 5:30, 2 which would give you a chance to get your car, and we then 3 reassembled at 5:40, could you finish by 6:00 if we kept 4 going past 5:30? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: 5:40? How much time do we have, Tom? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I will have a couple of 7 follow-up clarification things that I will have to address. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think I can finish in that 9 short a period. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Then what do you want 11 to do? 12 MS. BRASWELL: Well, obviously, Your Honor, it's 13 our position that he's had more than enough time to question 14 this witness and that this should be the end of it. Are we 15 going to have more than one day for every witness? 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He's mentioned that Judge Lambreth 17 indicated he was to have six hours. I didn't remember that. 18 MS. BRASWELL: I don't remember. I mean, I'd be 19 interested in knowing where that was mentioned. I am unaware 20 of that, but I haven't been on this case forever, so -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll go back -- that's not our 22 pattern and practice. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. So you estimate -- how much 24 do you have left? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I estimate about an hour and a half. 232 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So if we were to -- 2 since we're going to be together for a long period of time 3 over the next couple of months, if we could give this 4 gentleman a particular day -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. We'll work with him. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He'll be here for no more than an 7 hour and a half. Would that be okay with you? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: We can do it -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And give you a chance -- give 10 Mr. Klayman a chance to finish up and give you a chance to 11 ask your follow-up questions. 12 I'm sorry to do that to the witness, but he looks 13 exhausted. It's ten after 5:00, we've got a car here and, 14 you know, everybody has just about had it. 15 MS. BRASWELL: I understand that, Your Honor. 16 I just -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And you have to pick up your kids, 18 don't you, Ms. Braswell? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Actually, my kids are old enough to 20 not be picked up, Your Honor. 21 I have a real concern if this is going to happen 22 with every deposition, that we're going to continue -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I appreciate and share your 24 concern, Ms. Braswell. We'll just have to take it one day at 25 a time and see where we go from here. 233 1 If you want to file a motion saying he's had enough 2 time, I should exercise my discretion and cut him off, he'll 3 have to make a corresponding proffer, I'd be glad to rule on 4 it at that point. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for the record, this is a very 6 important witness who was in charge of the China desk, and 7 this is the major trade mission of our case. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. Okay. I think we 9 all have had it and we all have other obligations. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, I'll consider any 12 such motion you make. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It doesn't have to be, you know, 15 Black's Law Dictionary. We'll give counsel a chance to 16 respond, we'll have time over the next few months to do it. 17 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 18 (Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the deposition was 19 adjourned sine die.) 20 * * * * * 21 I have read the foregoing pages, which are a 22 correct transcript of the answers given by me to the 23 questions therein recorded. 24 Deponent________________________________ 25 Date________________________________