IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. : 95-0133 : U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Washington, D.C. Thursday, April 15, 1999 Deposition of JOHN HUANG a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Bethany J. Shields, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, 3rd and Constitution, N.W., Washington, D.C. commencing at 10:08 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA UTGOFF BRASWELL Assistant United States Attorney U.S. Attorney's Office 555 Fourth Street, N.W. 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 ELISE PACKARD, ESQ. Office of the General Counsel U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Deponent: TY COBB, ESQ. JOHN C. KEENEY, JR., ESQ. Hogan & Hartson, LLP 555 13th Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20004 Also present: Thomas Fitton, President, Judicial Watch 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 10 HUANG DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 9 Plaintiff's Memorandum of Points and Authorities Regarding John Huang's Attempted Invocation of Fifth Amendment Privilege 16 No. 10 Building the American Dream for the 21st Century 38 No. 11 Asia-Pacific Business Outlook 1995 39 No. 12 Export Programs January 1995 39 No. 13 Competing to Win in a Global Economy 39 No. 14 National Export Strategy Report to the United States Congress October 1994 39 No. 15 Inquiry to John Huang, "Answers of John Huang to Questions Posed by Wall Street Journal." 58 No. 16 Document dated November 1996 63 No. 17 Bates Number 755, 756, 757 and 758 111 No. 18 DNC expense report of John Huang, National Finance 134 No. 19 Document 145 No. 20 Memorandum from Canico of APA 146 No. 21 Document 149 No. 22 Clinton Administration Asian-Pacific American Appointees 153 No. 23 Los Angeles Times article, January 29th, 1997 160 4 HUANG DEPOSITION EXHIBITS CONTINUED: No. 24 Memorandum of May 5th, 1994, to Ann Cahill from Martha Phipps concerning White House activities 162 No. 25 DNC Managing Trustee Events Membership Requirements Menu 169 No. 26 Document 172 No. 27 Letter, July 25th, 1994, to Melissa Moss from Terry McAuliffe 174 No. 28 Bob, Harry, Fran, Laura, Richard, Steven and Jay from Eric, January 13th, 1994, trade mission to Russia 179 No. 29 Memorandum to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter August 6, 1993, Office of Business Liaison, Week in Review No. 5, with attached memorandum of January 24, 1994 concerning OBO Weekly Activities from Sally Painter to Melissa Moss, Office of Business Liaison Biweekly Review No. 13 181 No. 30 Document to John Huang from T.S. Chung 193 No. 31 Bates numbers 1634, 4066, 1649, 1692, 1690, 1650, 1651, 4182, 4183, 4185, 4184, 4186, and 4187 202 No. 32 United States Government Appointment Book 1994 210 No. 33 United States Government Appointment Book 1995 218 No. 34 John Huang DOC Telephone Data, Domestic/Long Distance Domestic Calling Card Employment Period Search July 18, 1994 Through and Including January 17, 1996 219 No. 35 Huang Chronology 219 5 HUANG DEPOSITION EXHIBITS CONTINUED: No. 36 Notes dated February 18, 1999 219 No. 37 Classified Briefings/Meetings, same day meetings within week 219 No. 38 Calendar of John Huang for 1995, with the headings "Appointment, Place, Date, and Time 220 No. 39 Photograph of John Huang, James Riady, and Ronald Brown 242 * * * * * 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is Volume 3 3 of the deposition of John Huang taken by the counsel for the 4 Plaintiff in the matter of Judicial Watch, Inc. v. U.S. 5 Department of Commerce on this date, April 15, 1999 and at 6 the time indicated on the video screen, which is 10:08 a.m. 7 My name is Sylvanius Holley. I am the 8 videographer. The court reporter today is Beth Shields from 9 the firm of Diversified Reporting. 10 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 11 MR. COBB: Ty Cobb and Jack Keeney on behalf of the 12 non-party deponent, John Huang. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the U.S. 14 Attorney's office on behalf of the Department of Commerce. 15 MS. PACKARD: Elise Packard, Office of the General 16 Counsel, Department of Commerce. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman General Counsel and 19 Chairman of Judicial Watch. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. Your Honor, I learned this 22 morning that Mr. Klayman had made an oral motion to Judge 23 Lambert for an emergency hearing. Mr. Klayman did not inform 24 me of this motion. I learned of it through a phone call from 25 Mr. Cobb. 7 1 Coming in here today, I asked Mr. Klayman that when 2 he makes an oral motion to a judge in this case that he have 3 the courtesy to inform me of it and he basically responded 4 that in essence he would let me know how it turned out. 5 So I would like the Court, please, to direct him 6 that when he makes an oral motion in this case that he should 7 have the courtesy to inform the other side. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, we began this proceeding 9 long ago, a couple of months ago, and I thought we were 10 getting along famously. 11 MS. BRASWELL: So did I. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And one of the things I said in my 13 letter is that I'm available at the drop of a hat at any time 14 for a conference call. I still am. 15 Why don't we all keep each other informed of what's 16 happening in court? I think it would make life easier. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, am I allowed to respond 18 to that? 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure, Mr. Klayman, but I don't 20 know why it warrants such a great response. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The usual courtesy is you call the 23 other guy and say I'm going to the judge and then you meet at 24 the judge or the judge gets back to you in a conference call. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you haven't even heard my side 8 1 of the argument and you're accepting hers before anything is 2 said? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. Well, okay, go ahead, 4 Mr. Klayman. Say what you wish. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: The fact is I simply called to see 6 whether there was time available. We do intend, Your Honor, 7 to appeal your ruling, in all due respect, with regard to 8 waiver. We were seeing whether Judge Lamberth was available 9 and he's not available this morning, but he is available 10 later in the day if problems arise. 11 I was going to put it on the record today that I 12 had made such an inquiry, but before I had an opportunity, I 13 was accosted in the hallway by Ms. Braswell, saying why 14 didn't you inform me. And it's not a substantive matter to 15 request whether a judge has time for a potential hearing. 16 If, obviously, the judge did have time, I would have informed 17 her and informed you at the time. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Fine. Thank you. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: There was no substantive discussion 20 on the merits of any of our claims. We respect you, we 21 respect Judge Lamberth and we would not go around you. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's fine. I understand. 23 Thank you very much. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: You're welcome. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Klayman, 9 1 Ms. Braswell. 2 All right. I assume you all have received a copy 3 of the order which I issued yesterday about the 4:30 p.m.? 4 MR. FITTON: Yes, Your Honor. 5 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: There is one loose end which I 7 wish to address right now. 8 In Mr. Klayman's pleading, you know he made the 9 representation that it is his understanding that this witness 10 has received immunity. As I assured Mr. Klayman and the rest 11 of you I would do, I made independent examination of that 12 question by virtue of a series of ex parte submissions made 13 to me. 14 I have now assured myself as a judicial officer 15 that this witness has not been afforded any transactional 16 immunity and therefore his privilege survives. 17 With reference to his privilege, we shall proceed 18 as follows: As to each question which Mr. Klayman poses, I 19 expect Mr. Cobb and Mr. Keeney, you will assert any and all 20 objections you have, including objections on the grounds of 21 relevance, and, of course, the assertion of the witness' 22 privilege. 23 I will then rule on the privilege on a 24 question-by-question basis, as I understand I am obliged 25 to do. 10 1 There is one other complication which I suppose we 2 can deal with when it arises, but I just wanted to explain to 3 all of you the preparations I have made in case it arises. I 4 would hope I will be able for the most part to make the 5 determination of the applicability of privilege on the basis 6 of the question itself. 7 If the situation does arise where I can't and I 8 need further explication from counsel, there is a second 9 court reporter in my courtroom. I will take in that room 10 from Mr. Cobb, Mr. Keeney and Mr. Huang any additional 11 explication they wish to make and that would, of course, be 12 placed under seal and made available to Judge Lamberth if he 13 seeks to review any of my decisions. 14 MR. COBB: Very well. Thank you, Your Honor. 15 MR. KEENEY: Thank you. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In terms of the privilege, I 17 think, Mr. Keeney, you read it in the record and may we all 18 agree that when you assert in a shorthand way the Fifth 19 Amendment privilege, it will mean that privilege which you 20 read into the record yesterday and which you have reproduced 21 in your pleading. 22 MR. KEENEY: Yes. So stipulated, Your Honor. 23 MR. COBB: So stipulated, Your Honor. And if I 24 might preface that, as indicated in the manner in which it 25 was read into the record, he's asserting it on the advice of 11 1 counsel. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand. 3 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, before we proceed, let 5 the record also reflect yesterday we did -- we called Judge 6 Lambert's chambers to see whether they had received a copy of 7 Mr. Huang's pleading. We didn't receive anything by noon -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry to hear that. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: But we did get a copy from your 10 chambers and we later got a copy from Mr. Huang's counsel. 11 When I spoke with Judge Lamberth's secretary, 12 she advised they had not received a copy of Mr. Huang's 13 pleading. I gave a copy to Judge Lamberth's law clerk this 14 morning. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: And I would request that Mr. Huang, 17 if he files anything, serve it with not just your 18 magistrate's judge's honor but also Judge Lamberth. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think that's an appropriate 20 practice. Thank you. Or perhaps we all just buy stock in 21 Xerox. 22 Whereupon, 23 JOHN HUANG 24 was recalled as a witness and, after having been previously 25 duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: 12 1 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF (RESUMED) 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Mr. Huang, you realize that you are still under 4 oath? 5 A Yes. 6 Q During the previous deposition on April 13th, I 7 asked you the question, "And during that deposition on 8 October 29, 1996, you testified truthfully in all respects?" 9 I asked you that question and you remember that, correct? 10 A On the advice of counsel, I exercise my right 11 under the Constitution of the United States to refuse to 12 answer on the ground that my answer may tend to incriminate 13 me and, to the extent the question is related to any 14 statement I have made previously that is found to have been 15 incriminating, answering the question places me in danger of 16 further incrimination. 17 Q Mr. Huang, what is it about answering that question 18 that would place you in further incrimination? 19 MR. COBB: He relies on his statement, Your Honor. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, the issues have been 21 briefed in terms of the showing that needs to be made to be 22 able to assert the privilege and the burden is on the party 23 asserting the privilege to show that they would be 24 incriminated by responding to that privilege, so that's the 25 reason why I'm asking the question. 13 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The assertion of the privilege 2 will be sustained. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: May I get a ruling from the Court 4 as to whether or not the case of Morganroth, 718 F.2d 161, 5 6th Circuit, which states that "Morganroth," he's the person 6 who asserted the privilege, "must supply such additional 7 statements under oath and other evidence to the District 8 Court in response to each question propounded so as to enable 9 the District Court to reasonably identify the nature of the 10 criminal charge for which Morganroth fears prosecution for 11 perjury, i.e., perjury, and to discern a sound basis for the 12 witness' reasonable fear of prosecution." 13 It further states "Unless some additional showing 14 beyond the mere assertion of privilege is required, no 15 witness will ever have to testify twice regarding the same 16 subject matter because the possibility of perjury would 17 always exist in theory." 18 That is the relevant case law with regard to the 19 showing, Your Honor, that needs to be made. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's a portion of the relevant 21 case law with reference to this. The controlling authority 22 in this jurisdiction, although I have read that case very 23 carefully, is the Wilcox decision in the 5th Circuit which 24 was cited as controlling in the most recent decision by the 25 Circuit Court of Appeals. 14 1 In my view, asking a witness if he told the 2 truth on a prior occasion when he was under oath is 3 self-incrimination of the most obvious sort and was so 4 identified in Wilcox v. United States. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: In Hoffman v. United States, 6 Your Honor, 341 U.S. 479, F.486, 1951, a Supreme Court 7 case -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, I'm well aware of it. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: -- the Court holds "A witness is not 10 exonerated from answering merely because he declares that in 11 doing so he would incriminate himself." 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But it is also true that I have a 13 judicial obligation to ascertain whether the answer to that 14 question would tend to incriminate him and I have concluded 15 that it would. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: In which case I would like him to 17 identify from his prior testimony exactly what it is about 18 the subject matter, not the statement itself, just some prima 19 facie showing that would tend to incriminate him. What was 20 it that I asked him at the prior deposition, subject matter 21 wise, that would tend to incriminate him? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Cobb? 23 MR. COBB: Your Honor -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking the witness. I'd like the 25 witness to answer. 15 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm asking Mr. Cobb if the witness 2 would assert his privilege. 3 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. Yes, he would, 4 Your Honor. 5 THE WITNESS: I would. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: The objection is sustained. 7 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 8 Your Honor, just so the record is clear on this, 9 having reviewed Judge Lamberth's order reopening the 10 deposition and Mr. Klayman's papers related to why he thought 11 that was appropriate, the grounds cited therein, the areas 12 which he indicated required exploration, Mr. Huang will 13 assert the privilege in response to all those areas. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We shall do it on a 15 question-by-question basis. 16 MR. COBB: Yes. I just -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We have no choice. 18 MR. COBB: No, I understand that, Your Honor. I 19 just didn't want to -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand your point. 21 MR. COBB: Thank you. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Cobb. 23 Mr. Klayman? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm showing Mr. Huang what has been 25 appended, what was part of a filing which we made yesterday 16 1 entitled "Plaintiff's Memorandum of Points and Authorities 2 Regarding John Huang's Attempted Invocation of Fifth 3 Amendment Privilege" and I'll ask that it be marked Exhibit 4 9. All the counsel have copies of it. 5 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 9 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. Huang, turn to your letter of July 11, 1997 to 9 the Honorable John Glenn. 10 MR. COBB: I think it's July 8th. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q July 8th. Excuse me. Which was sent by your 13 counsel, Mr. Ty Cobb, to the Honorable Senator John Glenn, a 14 member of the Committee on Government Affairs. Do you see 15 that letter? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Have you ever seen this letter before? 18 A On the advice of counsel, I exercise my right under 19 the Constitution of the United States to refuse to answer on 20 the ground that my answer may tend to incriminate me and, to 21 the extent the question is related to any statement I have 22 made previously that is found to have been incriminating, 23 answering the question places me in danger of further 24 incrimination. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: The assertion of the privilege is 17 1 overruled. It solely has to be answered yes or no. 2 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 3 MR. COBB: Your Honor, we respectfully request to 4 invoke the procedure. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: You may. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me, Your Honor. What 8 procedure are we talking about? 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I am now going to go into this 10 room with another reporter and take ex parte submissions from 11 these gentlemen so we can move on. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: May I request -- I was not advised of 13 any such procedure. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I advised you of it a moment ago. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I meet with Your Honor first 16 before we do that? 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's discuss it. We have 18 to wait for this reporter anyway. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, what I'm trying to ascertain is 20 your order was silent yesterday as to any procedures as to 21 how we're going to do this. When was such procedure put into 22 effect? Because we were never advised of it and I don't know 23 what the procedures are. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I explained them to you when I 25 arrived this morning. I told you that in order to inform -- 18 1 in the exercise of my responsibility, I have to walk between 2 the very tight line between forcing Mr. Huang to give up the 3 privilege to get it. In ascertaining, as you have insisted I 4 must, that there is a basis for the privilege, the only way I 5 decided I can do that is to hear from counsel ex parte and 6 under seal as to why they believe the privilege applies. On 7 the basis of being so informed, I will then rule. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: And this is no lack of respect 9 towards Your Honor, but I'm trying to grapple with the way 10 that we could then take an appeal of this if we are not able 11 to see exactly what the basis is. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The reason for the reporter being 13 in the other room will be to provide Judge Lamberth with a 14 transcript of those proceedings and then you can make 15 whatever argument you wish, that incident to his review of my 16 responsibility he should permit you to review what occurs 17 between me and these gentlemen. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Would we be entitled to learn the 19 legal arguments involved in this? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will do everything in my power 21 when I return to the room to summarize for you why I have 22 reached the conclusion I have without forcing Mr. Huang to 23 give up the privilege to gain it. No one is going to pretend 24 this is going to be easy, but I shall try to do it and handle 25 it the way I've handled other privilege questions in which I 19 1 try to if the privilege is asserted and found to be 2 applicable nevertheless to try to explain as best I can the 3 reasons for my ruling. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand the procedure. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 6 Gentlemen? 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off video record at 8 10:23. 9 (Whereupon, at 10:23 a.m., an ex parte discussion 10 was held off the record.) 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The assertion of the privilege 12 will be overruled and the witness will answer the question. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please. 14 (Pause.) 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video record at 16 10:27. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The assertion of the privilege is 18 overruled. The witness shall answer the question. 19 Now, gentlemen, Mr. Cobb and Mr. Keeney, you must 20 now advise me what your position will be. If I overrule the 21 privilege, we have to appreciate that as a United States 22 magistrate judge, I do not have contempt power. I do have 23 the power to report and recommend to Judge Lamberth that for 24 contempt committed in my presence that he hold the witness in 25 contempt. I have written about this in one of my decisions 20 1 called Athridge v. Ebner Corporation. 2 So, gentlemen, you must now advise me whether when 3 I overrule the privilege the witness will answer or will he 4 decline to answer subject tot he possibility that in my 5 report and recommendation I will recommend that he show cause 6 why he should not be held in contempt before Judge Lamberth. 7 MR. COBB: Your Honor, there may well come a time 8 when that occurs, in candor to the Court, however, not in 9 response to this question. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you very much. 11 Mr. Huang, please answer the question. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I read this letter. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Why is it that you're not sure that you read the 15 letter? 16 A The reason I entrust my legal counsel to handle the 17 matter for me, I just left the matter for them to handle. 18 Q Have you had an opportunity to read the letter? 19 A Right now? No, I have not. 20 Q Please read it. 21 A Okay. 22 (The witness reviewed the document.) 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Klayman. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Does this refresh your recollection whether you've 21 1 seen this letter before? 2 A I still don't, but I know the gist of it, of the 3 conversation that my counsel was intending to do. 4 Q What do you mean by the gist of the conversation 5 your counsel was intending to do? 6 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. Refers to a 7 conversation with counsel. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you agree with the contents of this letter? 11 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: On what grounds? 13 MR. COBB: Again on the grounds of the privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, it says -- I'm just 16 asking whether or not -- well, let me make a proffer. It 17 says, "On behalf of my client, Mr. John Huang, I am writing 18 to confirm that" and then it goes on to confirm certain 19 things. 20 And I'm entitled ask, since this is a public 21 document, whether or not Mr. Huang agrees with what his 22 counsel put forward to the United States Senate and when you 23 put something forward to the United States Senate, you put it 24 forward under oath. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Perhaps having read the letter, I 22 1 am of the view that it raises the risk that the answer to 2 your question would tend to incriminate him. I sustain the 3 objection. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I would then move for 5 disqualification of counsel because counsel will have a 6 conflict of interest with his client. If he's putting 7 forward arguments that would tend to incriminate his client, 8 he can no longer represent his client. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The decision whether Mr. Huang 10 want's Mr. Keeney and Mr. Cobb to continue as his counsel is 11 his, not mine, to make. 12 Do you wish them to continue as your counsel? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection is overruled. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, it's not just a decision 16 on the basis of whether Mr. Huang wants them to continue or 17 not. This counsel, Mr. Keeney, has been reported, and I 18 don't know if it's still currently true, to have represented 19 the Democratic National Committee, the law firm of Hogan & 20 Hartson has been reported to represent the People's Republic 21 of China. 22 Now, there are all kinds of potential conflicts 23 here and Mr. Huang himself deserves the right to be able to 24 make an informed decision on this. But, secondly, the Court 25 deserves to have counsel here who are unfettered by other 23 1 conflicts of interest in terms of asserting the privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Keeney, do you wish to speak 3 to that? 4 MR. KEENEY: Yes, I do, Your Honor. As co-chair of 5 the legal ethics committee of Hogan & Hartson, let me assure 6 Your Honor that this was done with full approval of the 7 ethics committee, in compliance with every ethical standard 8 and there is absolutely no merit to the allegations which 9 Mr. Klayman says that we have a disqualifying conflict of 10 interest. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Huang, if I may -- 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Conflict of interest describes a 14 situation where a lawyer represents a person even though he 15 may have a motivation because of another client. 16 A classic conflict of interest, Mr. Huang, would 17 be, for example, if a lawyer tried to represent both sides to 18 a divorce. The necessity of advancing the wife's interests 19 might place him in conflict of interest with advancing the 20 husband's interests. Do you understand that, Mr. Huang? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As any citizen who has retained 23 counsel, you are entitled to conflict-free representation if 24 you insist upon it. Do you understand that? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, Your Honor. 24 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Are you fully informed of the 2 circumstances under which Mr. Keeney represented you and the 3 Democratic National Committee? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am fully aware of that. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And having been fully advised of 6 those circumstances and being fully informed, do you wish Mr. 7 Keeney and Mr. Cobb to continue their representation of you? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: And I might ask that Your Honor pose 10 the question if he's aware that the law firm of Hogan & 11 Hartson represents the People's Republic of China. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I do not know if that is so. 13 Is it? 14 MR. KEENEY: Your Honor, I don't think that's 15 correct, but even if it were correct, I don't think I could 16 make that representation because I am bound by the firm's 17 duties of loyalty and confidence to all clients and we don't 18 talk about other clients' businesses before a court, so we're 19 bound by attorney-client privilege. So even if it were, I 20 couldn't tell you. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, it's been reported on a 22 number of occasions as late as, I believe, yesterday or the 23 day before by Mr. Dick Morris, who was formerly a close 24 presidential advisor to President Clinton. 25 Mr. Huang certainly deserves the opportunity to 25 1 know that and the Court does as well. 2 MR. COBB: Your Honor, can I make a shortcut 3 offering? 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I would appreciate it if you 5 would, Mr. Cobb. 6 MR. COBB: Your Honor, we would be more than happy 7 if Mr. Klayman would like to prepare a memorandum of all the 8 things that he thinks create a conflict and we will 9 faithfully pass that on to our client and discuss it at great 10 length with him and give him every opportunity he is entitled 11 to under the law. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In light of that representation, 13 counsel, I will not permit the question concerning 14 representation of the People's Republic of China. Also, I am 15 very hard pressed to see the relevance of that fact. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, perhaps as this 17 deposition proceeds it will become more apparent, that if you 18 just simply look at Mr. Huang's desk diaries you will, I 19 think, be able to ascertain -- I know you will be able to 20 ascertain the relevance of that, that he had several meetings 21 with the representatives of the People's Republic of China. 22 It has been reported widely that he passed classified 23 documents to agents of the People's Republic of China, by Bob 24 Woodward of The Washington Post and by others. There is a 25 clear conflict of interest here. 26 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then you are going to have to put 2 those in writing, serve them upon Hogan & Hartson and I'll 3 order them to show cause why they should not be disqualified 4 from further representation of this gentlemen. 5 But for present purposes, Mr. Huang, there's an 6 allegation made that Hogan & Hartson also represents the 7 People's Republic of China. If that were so, Mr. Huang, do 8 you still wish to have Mr. Cobb and Mr. Keeney continue with 9 your deposition subject to their giving you the fullest 10 information possible about their other representations so 11 that you can make any additional informed judgment later on? 12 THE WITNESS: I still do, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Huang. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please proceed. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, under the case law that I 17 provided, I want to ask more specific questions. Your Honor 18 can make a ruling as I do so. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Indeed I will. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q In this letter, the third paragraph, Mr. Huang -- 22 let's go for the second paragraph. "In addition," I'm 23 going to read the whole second paragraph, "the immunity 24 sought by Mr. Huang," this is the immunity which your counsel 25 is asking for before the Committee on Governmental Affairs, 27 1 "understandably would not protect him from lying or providing 2 false testimony to the committee." 3 Why is it that you didn't ask for immunity for 4 lying or providing false testimony to the Committee on 5 Governmental Affairs? 6 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The privilege will be sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q It says then, "In addition, because neither 10 Mr. Huang nor I would offend a man of your background by 11 suggesting that espionage of any sorts merits immunity, 12 Mr. Huang does not seek immunity in connection with the 13 use of his testimony as to any violations of the following 14 statutes: 18 U.S.C. 798, disclosure of classified 15 information; 18 U.S.C. 951, agents of foreign governments; 16 18 U.S.C. 1831, economic espionage; or 50 U.S.C. 783, 17 unlawful communication or receipt of classified information." 18 Mr. Huang, are you aware that these provisions were 19 put forward to the Committee on Governmental Affairs as a 20 reason why you did not seek immunity, these legal statutes? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The application of the privilege 22 will be sustained. 23 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I ask for 25 reconsideration on why a matter of public record would be 28 1 subject to privilege? 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Asking the witness why he did not 3 seek immunity or why he sought a various form of immunity 4 would provide evidence as to his motivation which would tend 5 to incriminate him because it would expose directly or 6 indirectly some reason in his own mind that he needed that 7 immunity. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: But my question was whether he was 9 aware that he did not ask for immunity under those statutes 10 with regard to the Senate Thompson committee hearings. Just 11 aware. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: His awareness of that, in my view, 13 falls within the privilege because his awareness, again, 14 would be a premise to impute to him a desire or need for that 15 immunity which might tend to incriminate him. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: However, Your Honor, the case law 17 states that he must set forth some basis and he has the 18 burden as to why the statement would be incriminating. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It doesn't say that, Mr. Klayman. 20 What it says is that he must do that only if it is not 21 self-evident from the question that the privilege is invoked. 22 In my view, it is so evident. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: If I may add one other thing for the 24 record, Your Honor, one could argue, although I wouldn't 25 agree with it, that that may be the case if he was saying 29 1 that he wanted immunity with regard to these particular 2 statutes, however, he's saying here he doesn't want immunity, 3 which is a statement that he fears no prosecution and I'm 4 entitled to ask him at the time that this letter was 5 submitted, July 8, 1997, Mr. Huang, did you fear prosecution? 6 MR. COBB: Objection. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That question would tend to 8 incriminate him. If he admitted that he feared prosecution, 9 that would mean he would have a reason to fear prosecution, 10 which could be used as a damaging admission against him in 11 any investigation of this matter. 12 The scope of the Fifth Amendment is as broad, 13 Mr. Klayman, as the potential prosecution. The Hoffman case 14 which you cited, the Rogers case, indicate that the surest 15 way to destroy it is to give it niggardly interpretation that 16 puts the witness in the impossible position of waiving the 17 privilege by claiming it. I cannot permit that to occur in a 18 way that is consistent with my judicial responsibilities. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: But, again, Your Honor, the question 20 was whether he was aware that this was asserted. I didn't 21 ask him his reasons. I asked the foundation question. I 22 submit I am able to ask him his reasons, too, for purposes of 23 appeal, but I just asked him if he was aware. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I have sustained his 25 invocation of privilege. 30 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Now, in the third paragraph on the first page, it 3 says "In offering to subject himself to the challenging 4 circumstances which may follow if an appropriate agreement 5 can be achieved, Mr. Huang is motivated not by a fear of 6 prosecution, as evidenced by his willingness to expose 7 himself without restriction to the most serious allegations 8 against him, but instead by his passion, even poignant view 9 that the interests of Asian-Americans have suffered unduly 10 because of his inability under the circumstances to respond 11 to the concededly legitimate questions which pertain to his 12 conduct with the Lippo Group, the United States Department of 13 Commerce and the Democratic National Committee, including the 14 unfounded and insensitive allegations of espionage. 15 "Mr. Huang is prepared to defend himself vigorously 16 through counsel within the justice system enjoyed by all 17 Americans. Having become a defenseless target for Asian 18 bashers, however, Mr. Huang feels compelled to forego the 19 security of his constitutional protections and to attempt 20 honorably to acknowledge whatever mistakes he may have made 21 over time and in the process to attempt to dispel the 22 regrettable racism spawned by the repeated, often erroneous, 23 depictions of him and his activities." 24 Mr. Huang, is it true that you did not fear 25 prosecution, that you simply were concerned that inquiry into 31 1 the matters concerning your activities was racism? 2 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The application of the privilege 4 will be sustained. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, in the briefs that were 6 filed yesterday, a copy of which was not provided to Judge 7 Lamberth from Mr. Huang, they run the argument that one of 8 the reasons that there will be incrimination is because of a 9 reflexive reaction of the court to Mr. Huang and his origins. 10 And -- 11 MR. COBB: I object to that, Your Honor. I don't 12 think that is -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: That is the way I certainly 14 interpreted that. And therefore having put that argument 15 forward as late as yesterday, having made statements at the 16 prior deposition that this -- that even Asian-Americans can 17 claim the Fifth Amendment, that was stated by Mr. Cobb, and 18 that release of the proceedings to the public would be 19 "McCarthyite," this obviously is a relevant question in terms 20 of the context of whether the claim of Fifth Amendment 21 privilege is based upon a fear of prosecution or a fear of 22 persecution of Asian-Americans. 23 MR. COBB: Need I respond, Your Honor? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The application of the privilege 25 is sustained. 32 1 You may ask your next question. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q "In closing, please be assured that Mr. Huang's 4 offer to testify under the circumstances identified above is 5 submitted with great respect for the committee and its 6 members. Moreover, it is presented with humility and 7 contrition and the hope of facilitating the important 8 interests of this committee, Asian-Americans and, indeed, all 9 citizens interested in a prompt and informed understanding of 10 Mr. Huang and his conduct." 11 Mr. Huang if called to testify today by the Senate, 12 would you appear and testify under the conditions set forth 13 in this letter? 14 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 16 will be sustained. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that does not relate to 18 whether or not he's going to be incriminated, I just simply 19 asked him whether -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, let's see if we can 21 get something straight here. The witness has asserted his 22 privilege. As a judicial officer, I am ruling upon that. 23 At that point, after I have ruled, if you wish to 24 make a brief statement objecting to my ruling, so be it. But 25 I would seriously appreciate in light of the situation we are 33 1 in if you would go to your next question. Because I assure 2 you, sir, I will make my legal ruling on the basis of the 3 case law as I understand it and, as I have tried to explain, 4 I am obliged by Supreme Court authority and the authority of 5 this circuit to give a wide berth to Mr. Huang in the 6 assertion of his privilege. It appears that every question 7 you have asked would tend to incriminate him. I remain of 8 that view, sir. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I did ask one question, Your Honor, 10 you overruled -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me. With the exception of 12 one question. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q I previously marked at the earlier deposition, 16 Mr. Huang, Exhibit 8, which was a notice of deposition 17 which required your attendance here today and attached to 18 that notice of deposition is a subpoena. I'm showing you 19 Exhibit 8. 20 Do you have a copy of that? It was marked at the 21 last deposition. 22 MS. BRASWELL: I do. 23 MR. COBB: I don't think he was permitted to retain 24 them. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have the original? 34 1 MS. BRASWELL: Do I have the original? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: It was on the table, apparently 3 somebody picked it up. 4 Can I ask that it be re-marked as Exhibit 8, 5 Your Honor? 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 7 I've got it. Thank you. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Do you remember seeing Exhibit 8 on Tuesday, 10 Mr. Huang? 11 MR. COBB: On Tuesday, did you see Exhibit 8? 12 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You didn't see it on Tuesday? 15 MR. COBB: On Tuesday. 16 THE WITNESS: This Tuesday? 17 MR. COBB: When you were deposed previously. 18 THE WITNESS: Wait a minute. 19 MR. COBB: He showed us this, he marked this for 20 identification on Tuesday and you may not have read it, but 21 he did mark it for identification and hand it to you. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. I do. Yes. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Prior to Tuesday, did you ever see Exhibit 8? 25 MR. COBB: Objection. 35 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why? You've lost me, Mr. Cobb. 2 Prior to Tuesday, did he ever see Exhibit 8? 3 MR. COBB: Yes, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I didn't know that Exhibit 8 was 5 in existence prior to Tuesday. 6 MR. COBB: Oh, I'm sorry. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 8 MR. COBB: Exhibit 8, it is the subpoena and 9 details the document demands and related things. It had been 10 served prior -- well, it hadn't been served, but it had been 11 issued prior to Tuesday. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 13 MR. COBB: So that it wasn't technically Exhibit 8 14 at that time, but prior to it's marking as Exhibit 8, is the 15 pending question, as I understand it, had he seen it. And we 16 would invoke the privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I'm going to overrule the 18 privilege for the narrow question, yes or no. 19 (The witness conferred with counsel.) 20 MR. COBB: You can answer. 21 THE WITNESS: I did not, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q On Tuesday -- let me back up. Take an opportunity 25 and review Exhibit 8, please. And I turn your attention to 36 1 Appendix A, which are the document requests of the subpoena. 2 A You're talking about page 3, Mr. Klayman? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 4 (The witness reviewed the document.) 5 MR. COBB: And the question? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q The question was prior to Tuesday, were you aware 8 that the Court was requesting you to produce the documents 9 set forth in paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of Appendix A -- 10 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: -- to Exhibit 8? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 13 will be sustained. 14 MR. COBB: In addition, just for the record, 15 Your Honor, in connection with anything that might require 16 testimony about consultation with counsel, that in addition 17 to privilege, I have the attorney-client privilege. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 19 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: And the reason I'm asking this 21 question, if I may, is to ascertain whether Mr. Huang did an 22 adequate search for documents pursuant to this subpoena. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Which if he did not would tend to 24 expose him to incrimination and contempt. The question falls 25 directly within the privilege. 37 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, the reason that I ask for 2 reconsideration of that ruling, if that's the case, then 3 anyone who ever produces documents in any proceeding will in 4 fact never have to account for any court process as to 5 whether or not they're obeying it or not. I mean, that's 6 like a self-executing incrimination. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But you have to remember, sir, 8 that we are in a quite different context. We are in the 9 context where a judge, the Honorable Judge Royce C. Lamberth, 10 having written an opinion in which he indicated that this 11 witness, among other things, that there were at least 12 accusations that this witness had removed documents 13 improperly from his place of employment, that he was not 14 credible, the cases that you have brought to my attention, 15 counsel has diligently brought to my attention, I must 16 consider all these circumstances. 17 In my view, asking this particular witness whether 18 he was faithful to a responsibility to a court in looking 19 for, searching and producing documents directly incriminates 20 him in the most obviously way. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor's order makes a 22 distinction between going over past issues and going over new 23 issues. While I do respectfully agree with portions of 24 Your Honor's order and we'll take that up on appeal on behalf 25 of Judicial Watch, Your Honor makes that ruling and I am 38 1 asking about a new subpoena which required production 2 Tuesday. This is a new matter. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Disagreeing entirely with your 4 interpretation of my opinion, the assertion of privilege will 5 be sustained. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Huang, you produced on Monday -- 7 Tuesday, rather, some documents and I asked you the question 8 if you were producing these documents for the first time. 9 I'll ask that they be marked as Exhibit 10, one 10 entitled "Building the American Dream for the 21st Century." 11 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 10 12 was marked for identification.) 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Somehow I got the originals. 14 Did you want to -- 15 MR. COBB: We intended to give you the originals, 16 Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you now want me to give them 18 to the reporter and let them be the copy that accompanies the 19 deposition? 20 MR. COBB: I think we would prefer that copies 21 be -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then I'll keep the court record. 23 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 11, "Asia-Pacific Business 25 Outlook 1995." 39 1 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 11 2 was marked for identification.) 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 12, "Export Programs January 4 1995." 5 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 12 6 was marked for identification.) 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 13, "Competing to Win in a 8 Global Economy." 9 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 13 10 was marked for identification.) 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 14, "National Export Strategy 12 Report to the United States Congress October 1994." 13 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 14 14 was marked for identification.) 15 MR. COBB: And the question is? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask my question when I ask my 17 question, Mr. Cobb. 18 MR. COBB: I'm sorry, you were looking at him for a 19 response and -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'll proceed -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hey. Let's get something 22 straight. I'm the judge. That kind of behavior will stop 23 right now. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I agree, Your Honor. 25 MR. COBB: I apologize, Your Honor. 40 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Proceed. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Mr. Huang, Exhibits 10 through 14 -- 4 A Yes, sir? 5 Q Were these documents produced for the first time on 6 Tuesday in this case? 7 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Where were these documents found in response to the 12 subpoena which is Exhibit A? 13 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The application of the privilege 15 will be sustained. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I get a proffer on that, 17 Your Honor, or the basis for the ruling? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The basis of the ruling is that 19 you're inquiring of this particular witness of the 20 circumstances of his search, whether he did so correctly or 21 incorrectly or whatever, and it seems to me it invokes the 22 subject to a serious risk of incrimination, given what Judge 23 Lamberth has already said about this. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: May I ask for reconsideration on the 25 following grounds. In the order of December 22nd, the Court 41 1 has empowered Judicial Watch as the plaintiff to ascertain 2 whether documents left the Department of Commerce and where 3 they may be. And the fact that certain documents left the 4 Department of Commerce, in this case, these are all public 5 documents, and to ascertain where they are now stored, 6 wouldn't incriminate him, at least with regard to these 7 public documents. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We disagree. Asking questions 9 about this witness' search for the documents and production 10 directly implicates his Fifth Amendment rights because the 11 investigation of him, growing out Judge Lamberth's order or 12 otherwise, will focus directly on whether he was faithful to 13 the responsibility to search for or produce documents in 14 response to judicial orders. It's a direct relation between 15 the topic and possible incrimination. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Were these documents which I marked as Exhibits 10 18 through and including 14 produced by you, Mr. Huang? On 19 Tuesday? 20 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. They were 21 produced by counsel. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry? 23 MR. COBB: Objection. They were produced by 24 counsel. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to ask, Your Honor, 42 1 whether he produced them. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you give them to your lawyer? 3 MR. COBB: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why? 5 MR. COBB: Assert the privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you would assert the privilege 7 as well as to whether he gave them -- 8 MR. COBB: As to whether he had physical 9 possession. Correct. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The assertion of the privilege 11 will be sustained. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask Your Honor for a 13 clarification of that. Are we saying that this is an issue 14 of possession, custody or control? I just asked the question 15 of possession. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: May I commend your attention to a 17 recent decision in the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals in United 18 States v. Hubbell, which deals with the circumstances under 19 which enforced production pursuant to a subpoena invokes the 20 Fifth Amendment? It seems to me it is on all fours with this 21 situation. 22 Inquiring of a witness as to did he produce certain 23 documents, where he found them, when there is potentially an 24 investigation of the faithfulness of that witness to the 25 legal obligation to produce those very documents incriminates 43 1 him in my view in a most direct way. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: May I ask Your Honor to get a proffer 3 from counsel, if necessary, you can do it ex parte -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. There is no need to. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: -- whether -- whether these documents 6 came from counsel's files and whether counsel's been 7 withholding these documents? 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason I ask for that is that one 10 can only assume under the circumstances that counsel may be 11 equally incriminated with Mr. Huang, in which case they 12 clearly have a conflict of interest. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I make no such assumption. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: That's our position. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So be it. 16 MR. COBB: Your Honor, if I might, just for the 17 record, I would like to object to Mr. Klayman's last 18 statement. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Cobb. 20 MR. COBB: Thank you. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: In response to that objection, 22 Your Honor, if there is no differentiation, even ex parte, 23 under seal with Your Honor as to who was holding these 24 documents, then that's the only conclusion one can reach. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, the world can 44 1 construe by its wits. I, however, shall construe by the law. 2 Please ask your next question. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q I showed you on Monday -- on Tuesday, rather, what 5 had been marked as Exhibit 1 to your first deposition. 6 That's the original subpoena of October 29, 1996. And I'll 7 ask whether you've ever seen this before, Mr. Huang. 8 MR. COBB: I'm sorry, this is -- 9 MR. KLAYMAN: It's Exhibit 1 to this deposition 10 which is continuing, but it was previously marked on 11 October 29, 1996. 12 MR. COBB: Objection. I would invoke the 13 privilege, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, during the course of the 15 prior deposition, was the witness asked that question? 16 Ms. Braswell, you're shaking your head yes? 17 MS. BRASWELL: It's my understanding he was. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, if he's merely asked to 19 repeat the answer, I see no risk of future incrimination. 20 It is my recollection, having read the deposition, he was as 21 well. Perhaps we could take a moment to see if that's in 22 there. 23 MR. COBB: Your Honor, if I might, on that point, I 24 do believe that mere repetition under the circumstances as 25 the case law, particularly Wilcox, makes plain does justify 45 1 the invocation. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's see if we can find the 3 previous reference, Mr. Cobb, that way -- 4 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, it's on page 20 of the 5 deposition. The question was, "Mr. Huang, you previously 6 responded to the subpoena for your attendance on October 29, 7 1996. That subpoena was made Exhibit 1 to your prior 8 deposition, correct?" 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You already have his answer, 10 Mr. Klayman. Why don't you pose another question? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the reason, Your Honor, is 12 because at that point, the deposition was adjourned so 13 Your Honor could make a ruling on privilege. And the 14 situation is now different because Your Honor has made a 15 ruling and it's our view based upon your ruling that he can 16 respond to this question. In fact, you ordered him to 17 respond to another question dealing with the later subpoena, 18 Exhibit 8, which was identical. 19 MR. COBB: Well, the question that he responded to, 20 Your Honor, was whether he saw it marked as an exhibit -- saw 21 it on Tuesday when it was marked as an exhibit. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection was sustained on 23 grounds it was asked and answered. Why don't you move on, 24 Mr. Klayman? You have your answer. He has seen the document 25 before. 46 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I understand, Your Honor. I'm 2 asking for reconsideration. It was not answered because he 3 took the Fifth Amendment. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: When did he take the Fifth 5 Amendment? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: On Tuesday. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now you are asking him -- let's 8 begin again. What are you asking him? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking him whether he's ever seen 10 Exhibit 1 before. That's just a foundation question. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. What is Exhibit 1? 12 May I see it? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: That's the first subpoena. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And our examination of the 15 deposition indicates that when he was asked that question on 16 the prior occasion, Ms. Braswell, he answered it without 17 asserting the privilege. 18 MS. BRASWELL: No. Your Honor, again, the question 19 was slightly different. He did assert the privilege in 20 response to the question. The specific question he was asked 21 about Exhibit 1 was, "Mr. Huang, you previously responded to 22 the subpoena for your attendance at October 29, 1996. That 23 subpoena was made Exhibit 1 to your prior deposition, 24 correct?" 25 So it appears he was being asked whether Exhibit -- 47 1 that subpoena was made Exhibit 1. Maybe Mr. Klayman is 2 asking a different question here. It's unclear. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is your question in any way 4 different, Mr. Klayman? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. I'm asking whether he had ever 6 seen the document before. That's a simple question. It 7 certainly doesn't incriminate anyone. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 9 And, Mr. Cobb, your view is that it does tend to 10 incriminate him. 11 MR. COBB: That's correct, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Despite his prior answer, even 13 though it appears that the question and the answer are 14 identical. 15 MR. COBB: That's correct, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And what is the basis for that? 17 MR. COBB: I invoke the -- 18 MS. BRASWELL: He invoked the privilege, 19 Your Honor. 20 MR. COBB: I did invoke the privilege -- 21 MS. BRASWELL: He did invoke the privilege. 22 MR. COBB: -- in response to that. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So the situation we 25 are confronted with, when the question was asked the last 48 1 time, the witness did invoke the privilege. 2 MR. COBB: No, no, no. When it was asked Tuesday. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: When it was asked on Tuesday, he 4 invoked the privilege. 5 MR. COBB: Right. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I guess the question I'm asking is 7 when his deposition was taken in October of last year, was 8 that question asked and answered? Because then you would 9 confront the question of whether it is new matter or merely 10 asking him to repeat something. The difference between Ellis 11 and Perkins. 12 MS. BRASWELL: I don't know the answer to that, 13 Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Can you ascertain from 15 the 1996 deposition whether he was asked that question? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, he was asked that 17 question -- I do know the answer. Page 6 of his deposition, 18 he was handed Exhibit 1, he was asked, "Have you seen this 19 document before, Mr. Huang?" He answered, "No." So if 20 that's the question Mr. Klayman is asking, it appears it was 21 asked at the last deposition. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And then we are in a quite 23 different area, aren't we, Mr. Klayman? Now we're asking the 24 witness to answer the same question in hopes he will do so -- 25 with the possibility that he will do so and therefore perjure 49 1 himself. So I am going to have to sustain the application of 2 the privilege because it seems to me that's exactly what 3 Perkins talks about. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason that wouldn't necessarily 5 implicate him in incriminating himself, Your Honor, is 6 because he may have seen it after the deposition. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The application of the privilege 8 is sustained. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, reconsideration on the 10 basis that Judge Lamberth's order of April 9th requires him 11 to comply with both subpoenas. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In a manner that is consistent 13 with the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: If I may, Your Honor, how will the 15 Court be able to ascertain whether Mr. Huang is in contempt 16 of the subpoena unless I can ask the question as to whether 17 he's ever seen it or whether he knows of its contents at any 18 time? 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You will have to prove that as is 20 always true of anyone who confronts a Fifth Amendment 21 privilege. You will have to prove that in some other way 22 than his own mouth. That's what the Fifth Amendment is all 23 about. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Is there anyone other than yourself, Mr. Huang, who 50 1 would know whether or not you have ever seen Exhibit 1 2 before? 3 MR. COBB: Invokes the privilege, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The application of the privilege 5 will be sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Is there anyone who would know whether you have 8 ever seen Exhibit 8 before, which is the later subpoena? 9 MR. COBB: Invokes the privilege, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The privilege will be sustained. 11 MR. COBB: Pardon me, Your Honor. Am I speaking 12 loud enough for the Court? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Every once in a while your voice 14 drops down, Mr. Cobb, but, please, if you would -- 15 MR. COBB: I apologize. Thank you. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Are you having trouble, Madam 17 Reporter? 18 (Pause.) 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I would like to just put 20 on the record right now a request so everybody can hear it, 21 we're all together, I don't know if the Court has time 22 tomorrow morning to take up on appeal these rulings, but 23 while Mr. Huang is in town, it appears to me that what we're 24 going to be able to get today is little to nothing; that we 25 are now proceeding with the deposition not even knowing 51 1 whether or not we have gotten documents which were ordered 2 produced as late as April 9, 1999; that this obviously is a 3 significant use of time and resource of both Your Honor, 4 which is very valuable, Judge Lamberth and the parties, and 5 therefore if Judge Lamberth has an opportunity, I leave it to 6 his discretion to review these matters overnight and to have 7 a hearing tomorrow morning and if he happens to rule that 8 these questions should be asked in whole or in part, that we 9 would like to be able to proceed tomorrow while we're all 10 here. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, in his order of reference of 12 December 22, 1998 -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not saying I won't continue to 14 ask questions now, but I'm just trying to get everybody 15 advised. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So be it. I don't know, Mr. 17 Klayman. I cannot regulate whether you take appeals from my 18 orders. You wish to do whatever you wish to do. I am ready, 19 willing and able to stay here as long as I have to, subject 20 to stomach pains and picking up kids and other things, until 21 we finish this proceeding. We are all agreed, I thought, as 22 of yesterday, we have to agree because the law tells us to, 23 there is no other way to do this except on a question by 24 question basis. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm patient and I know you are 52 1 and -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So let us -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: -- and I hope the other people are, 4 too. I just want to put everybody on notice, Judge 5 Lamberth's clerk who is sitting here, and I also wanted to 6 ask the court reporter if during the various breaks here 7 today you could have the transcript transcribed on an 8 expedited basis as we go along. I would ask Your Honor when 9 we take a break if the court reporter could call her office, 10 they could pick up the tape. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I would prefer we continue and try 12 to get our job done. I can't do things at once, Mr. Klayman. 13 I can't preside over the deposition and worry about all the 14 things you want to do, to take appeals. That's your problem; 15 it's not mine. Let us continue. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I perhaps in 20 minutes ask for a 17 break so the court reporter can call her house and -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: -- and they can start transcribing? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In fact, do you guys want to break 21 right now? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you want a break? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 25 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 53 1 (A brief recess was taken.) 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 11:20. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Huang, since early October of 1996, have you 5 spoken with anyone from the U.S. Department of Justice? 6 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The application of the privilege 8 will be sustained. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: May I get a proffer, Your Honor, as 10 to why that would be objectionable? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Because that discussion could have 12 had reference to his potential prosecution, the discussion 13 could have communicated an officer to him from the United 14 States. All of those matters are matters that deal directly 15 with whether or not he will be subject to criminal liability. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, Mr. Cobb himself gave an 17 interview in 1997, October 1997, where he was asked -- it was 18 on Fox; the name of the show was "John Huang in His Own 19 Words" -- whether his client had been approached or had any 20 communications with the U.S. Department of Justice, and he 21 said no. Can I at least go that far? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The problem is, I don't think they 23 are going to indict Mr. Cobb. They would indict Mr. Huang. 24 He's the guy with the privilege. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, what I'm saying is, I mean, 54 1 they've been discussing this, but I can't ask the question at 2 deposition? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Exactly right, that's what the 4 Fifth Amendment is all about. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: And the other aspect of that is, I'm 6 not asking what was said. I'm just asking whether he's had 7 contact. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I appreciate that, but I've heard 9 the answer, and I sustain the application of the privilege. 10 MR. COBB: In addition, Your Honor, just for the 11 record, I have a scope objection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Have you ever been contacted, Mr. Huang, since 15 leaving the Department of Commerce, by the Commerce 16 Department's inspector general? 17 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will sustain the application of 19 the privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever been contacted since leaving the 22 Department of Commerce by the Senate Governmental Affairs 23 Committee with regard to its campaign finance investigation? 24 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I sustain the application of the 55 1 privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Have you ever been contacted by the Government 4 Reform and Oversight Committee of the U.S. House of 5 Representatives with regard to its campaign finance 6 investigation? 7 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I sustain the application of the 9 privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you ever had contact with or had any 12 discussions with any independent counsel of the United States 13 Department of Justice with regard to matters involving 14 campaign finance for a controversy known as Chinagate? 15 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I sustain the application of the 17 privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Have you ever been contacted since early October of 20 1996 by any press organizations and provided responses? 21 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go off the record. 23 (A discussion was held off the record from 11:23 to 24 11:26 a.m.) 25 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 11:26. 56 1 MR. COBB: Can we have the question? 2 THE WITNESS: Can I have the question one more 3 time, please, Your Honor? 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The question, I believe, was 5 whether you've had any "contact" with any press organizations 6 since your deposition in October of 1996. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Actually, it's slightly different, 8 Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay, you phrase it. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me phrase it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Have you had any contact with any press 13 organizations since October 1st of 1996? 14 MR. COBB: Yes or no. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Who have you had contact with? 18 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What is the relevance of that line 20 of inquiry, Mr. Klayman? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I sequester Mr. Huang for a 22 second? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Huang, step out. Go with your 24 counsel. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 57 1 MR. COBB: Do we have to leave, as well? 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. 3 MR. COBB: I will take him. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I'll try to structure this 5 when you get back. 6 (The witness and counsel left the deposition room.) 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. We have 8 certain communications that were sent to John Huang and were 9 responded to by John Huang with regard to press inquiries, 10 and the press inquiries deal, in large part, with the trade 11 missions that are the subject of this case. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Now, Ms. Braswell? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, it's way beyond the 14 scope of discovery in this case. 15 The whole issue of discovery in this case is what 16 documents have been produced to Judicial Watch, and he is 17 entitled to ask Mr. Huang any documents that perhaps he took 18 when he left the Department of Commerce or whether or not he 19 destroyed any documents. I see no relevance to this line of 20 questioning whatsoever. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ask counsel to return. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, here's the relevance, Your 23 Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Here's a document which I'll 58 1 ask be marked as Exhibit 15. It's an inquiry to John Huang, 2 "Answers of John Huang to Questions Posed by Wall Street 3 Journal." 4 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 15 5 was marked for identification.) 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It deals specifically with trade 7 missions that are the subject of this case, and he's giving 8 responses, and obviously, we have to know his activities to 9 be able to determine whether any documents have been 10 generated. It not only bears with the underlying 11 documentation, but compliance with the Court's orders. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's get him back in here and 13 pose your question, and I'll rule on your relevancy objection 14 when I hear the actual questions. 15 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would you ask counsel to come 17 back? Thank you. 18 (The witness and counsel returned to the deposition 19 room.) 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Your question, sir? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Mr. Huang, Exhibit 15 is a document, a letter from 23 the Wall Street Journal of October 4, 1996, to Mr. John 24 Huang. It contains a number of questions. 25 The questions are posed by Glenn R. Simpson of the 59 1 Wall Street Journal, copy to David Eichenbaum, and attached 2 to it are "Answers of John Huang to Questions Posed by Wall 3 Street Journal." 4 Do you remember seeing this document before? 5 MR. COBB: Objection, and invoke the privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The privilege will be sustained. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: What is the basis of sustaining that? 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It is the Perkins case. It's 9 identical to the Perkins case. You're asking a witness 10 whether a previous document -- if he acknowledges that he 11 gave this document, the document becomes an admission which 12 can be used to incriminate him. That is the Perkins case. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Mr. Huang, On October 4, 1996, you worked for the 15 Democratic National Committee, correct? 16 MR. COBB: Objection. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Application of the privilege will 18 be sustained. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Is Your Honor saying that any 20 employer he's ever worked for would throw him within the 21 privilege? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I am ruling on that question. You 23 can ask other questions, and I'll rule on them as they arise. 24 You've got enough problems today, Mr. Klayman, without 25 commenting on questions that I haven't yet ruled on. 60 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the reason I asked for 2 reconsideration, Your Honor, is because I don't see how 3 having worked for someone, which is a matter of public 4 record, would incriminate him. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, let me see if I can 6 explain something to you. The Fifth Amendment of the United 7 States doesn't draw any distinction between what is public 8 and what is private. 9 If the question before -- the inquiry was whether 10 or not, during the particular time, an assistant United 11 States attorney took bribes, and a prosecutor from the grand 12 jury asked that assistant United States attorney, "Is it 13 true, sir, that in the period of 1992 to 1996, you worked for 14 United States Attorney's Office," the claim of the privilege 15 would have to be sustained, because it is a link in the chain 16 of the Government's prosecution of bribery. 17 The fact that objective reality may prove that this 18 man did a certain thing, or didn't do a certain thing, worked 19 for a certain corporation or didn't work for a certain 20 corporation has nothing to do with whether you can force him 21 to admit the truth of that fact by his own testimony. 22 Historically, that's where the Fifth Amendment 23 privilege comes from. What you just did was a pristine 24 example of the Fifth Amendment. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if I may respond to that 61 1 for the purposes of asking for reconsideration? 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, go ahead. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: This case concerns whether or not he 4 produced certain documents and gave truthful testimony with 5 regard to FOIA requests filed at the U.S. Department of 6 Commerce. 7 It would not have mattered who he was working for 8 in terms of his disobeyance, as alleged, of court orders in 9 this case, or with regard to prior testimony. He, himself 10 has stated, both at deposition, prior deposition, and 11 publicly, that he worked for the Democratic National 12 Committee. 13 Now, I would like to them ask him this question: 14 does he claim that simply acknowledging what he has testified 15 to at his prior deposition would incriminate him? 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He doesn't have to answer that 17 question, because he is not obliged to explain the reason for 18 his assertion of the privilege if the reason for the 19 assertion of the privilege is otherwise self-evident. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: So you're standing by your ruling? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. And let me just say for the 23 record, that's not the only area of relevance of this case, 24 but for the contents of this question, I just wanted to use 25 that as an example. 62 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Very good. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q I to your attention to the last two pages of this 4 document, 106 and 107, and ask you, Mr. Huang, if you were 5 the one who prepared the answers to the questions posed by 6 Mr. Simpson of the Wall Street Journal, as reflected on these 7 two pages. 8 MR. COBB: Objection, invoke the privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 10 MR. COBB: I apologize for interrupting, Mr. 11 Klayman. I thought you were finished. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Are these answers correct? 15 MR. COBB: Objection and -- 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can read it, if you like. 18 MR. COBB: -- invoke the privilege, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 20 will be sustained. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: When Your Honor reconsidered his 22 ruling with regard to the press, were you also opening up the 23 questions that I asked previous to that, whether he had been 24 contacted by the Justice Department? 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm trying not to rule 63 1 hypothetically. Why don't you pose a question, Mr. Klayman? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Were you ever contacted by the Justice Department 4 after October 1, 1996? 5 MR. COBB: Invoke the privilege. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: On those questions, I will sustain 8 the application of the privilege. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: On that whole line of questioning? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what I'll ask the 12 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 16. 13 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 16 14 was marked for identification.) 15 MS. BRASWELL: May I have a copy, please? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: It wasn't intentional. Your Honor, 17 we're trying to be a little more civil here. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Civility is a grace. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I agree. 20 MR. KEENEY: Please, Mr. Klayman, could I also have 21 a copy? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I gave one to your counsel. If I 23 have extras, I will. I don't know that I always will have 24 extras. 25 MR. KEENEY: Thank you. I appreciate it. 64 1 MR. COBB: I don't represent Mr. Keeney in this 2 case. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I won't respond to that. 4 (The witness examined the document.) 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have you seen this document before, Mr. Huang? 7 MR. COBB: Can we have a minute, Your Honor? 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I can't hear you, Mr. Cobb. 9 MR. COBB: Can I have a minute with my client? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Of course. 11 MR. COBB: Can we go in there? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I would like to get an 13 unfettered response. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You just want to talk to your 15 client, or do you want to talk to me? 16 MR. COBB: I want to talk to my client. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please do so. 18 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'd like to raise an 20 objection to the relevance. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let him talk to his client, and 22 when we get back, I'll hear your objection. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 24 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off video record at 25 11:36. 65 1 (A brief recess was taken.) 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Back on the record. 3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 11:37. 4 MR. COBB: Your Honor, if I might clarify for the 5 Court? 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Surely. 7 MR. COBB: The purpose of my request to consult 8 with my client is to ensure that we're appropriately invoking 9 the privilege, and we do not do so in response to this 10 question. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I however raise our 13 objection in response to this question, that this appears to 14 be beyond the scope of the permitted discovery in this case. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Cobb is asserting the 16 privilege? 17 MR. COBB: No, I said I'm not asserting the 18 privilege in connection -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would you repeat the question, Mr. 20 Klayman? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever seen the document before? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And your objection was? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, this document, which is 25 a November 1996 document, which is almost two years after the 66 1 last FOIA request that's at issue in this case, has no 2 relevance with the permitted discovery in this case. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Perhaps Ms. Braswell didn't read it, 4 but I would to your attention to, at a minimum, paragraph 2 5 of page 2. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, paragraph 2 of page 2 7 apparently concerns the circumstances regarding Mr. Huang 8 appearing at the deposition in October of 1996. Mr. Huang 9 was asked a whole series of questions at that deposition 10 regarding the circumstances of his accepting a subpoena at 11 that time. 12 There has been no permitted discovery into the 13 circumstances surrounding him attending the October 1996 14 deposition. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, this obviously deals with 16 misconduct in this case. That was a part of Judge Lamberth's 17 order of December 22nd. We're allowed to take discovery on 18 that. 19 MS. BRASWELL: No, Your Honor. The misconduct in 20 this case which he is allowed to take discovery on deals with 21 documents, whether or not documents were removed from the 22 Department of Commerce or whether or not documents have been 23 destroyed. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't want to telegraph what 25 my questions are here in front of Ms. Braswell but, as a 67 1 lawyer, I think she can probably understand what they are. 2 I'm also curious as to why she's asserting this 3 objection. Are you asserting it on behalf of the White House 4 or the Department of Commerce? 5 MS. BRASWELL: The Department of Commerce, as you 6 well know, Mr. Klayman, is my client. That's who I am 7 asserting it on behalf of. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Because this deals with people at the 9 White House, and I shouldn't see that you have a problem if 10 this is nothing I got into during the first deposition. 11 MS. BRASWELL: I am asserting -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let me see if I understand 13 something, Ms. Braswell. 14 Judge Lamberth's December 22, 1998, order speaks of 15 a lot of topics, various things that concern him. The first 16 couple of paragraphs -- 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, can I ask that we 18 sequester Mr. Huang during this discussion? 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, there's no need to. He can 20 hear this. I was in the middle of a thought. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I apologize. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah. All right. 23 In December, that order comes out. We're all 24 agreed the first few pages of it deal with the efforts of Mr. 25 Huang to evade the service of process. Is that not a 68 1 legitimate topic of inquiry pursuant to Judge Lambert's 2 order? 3 MS. BRASWELL: No, Your Honor. Judge Lamberth 4 doesn't say that discovery may go into that area. In fact, 5 as I indicated, there was a whole series of questions at the 6 October 1996 deposition regarding this. Judge Lamberth 7 simply expressed his displeasure over what he perceived had 8 occurred with respect to that deposition. 9 Nowhere in the December order does he say the 10 discovery will continue regarding this episode that has been 11 discussed and questioned at length in this case. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if I may, as late as 13 April 9th, Judge Lamberth issued an order where he made 14 reference, specifically in the context of Mr. Huang's 15 deposition, to that conduct. 16 MS. BRASWELL: He didn't -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I believe a fair interpretation of 18 Judge Lambert's orders, of the April 9th order and the 19 December 22nd order, is that he intended to express his 20 disgust -- and I don't think that's too strong a word -- at 21 the circumstances surrounding Mr. Huang's not coming to the 22 deposition as required. 23 I do agree with Ms. Braswell, however, that I don't 24 think a fair interpretation is intended to permit additional 25 discovery into those circumstances. Therefore, I will 69 1 sustain the Government's objection to the relevance of the 2 question. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask for reconsideration here, 4 because the very fact that Mr. Huang has reflected in this 5 document has had representations made by or on his behalf 6 through the White House, the fact that he's testified that he 7 did have contact with the White House during the period that 8 U.S. Marshals were looking for him, the very fact that we 9 have correspondence in this case that's a matter of record 10 between the Department of Commerce and the White House, 11 however few documents were produced, and the very fact that 12 we have testimony on the record from Nolanda Hill that the 13 sale of trade missions -- Nolanda Hill being the close 14 confidante and business partner of Ron Brown, Secretary of 15 Commerce -- that in fact, the sale of seats on trade missions 16 were orchestrated and devised by Hillary Clinton with the 17 knowledge and approval of the President, that Leon Panetta 18 and John Podesta -- Leon Panetta being White House Chief of 19 Staff, John Podesta being deputy at the time -- advised 20 Secretary Brown, who was the Secretary of Commerce, not to 21 produce documents in violation of Judge Lambert's orders -- I 22 don't want to go on too far here, but that's enough, in and 23 of itself, to allow me to ask questions here, because the 24 fundamental basis of the December 22, 1998 orders were to 25 find out where those documents are. 70 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I persist in my ruling. You may 2 ask your next question. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I.e., are they located at the White 4 House? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ask you question, Mr. Klayman. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q I believe there's a question pending. Exhibit 16, 8 have you seen this document before? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I raised an objection to 10 this, to the relevance. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. The objection has been 12 sustained. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: On grounds of relevancy? 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Exactly. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, it's my understanding 16 that a deposition is that which is relevant or which may lead 17 to relevant evidence. We're not in a trial situation here. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm well aware of the discovery 19 standard, and I have applied it as best I can. I sustain the 20 objection. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, to make it clear, I 22 raised the objection that it goes beyond the scope of 23 permissible discovery in this case. If I used the word 24 "relevancy" I apologize, but that's what I meant. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. That's how I 71 1 understood you, Ms. Braswell. Thank you for the 2 clarification. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: May I read into the record, just for 4 the record, Your Honor, the paragraph that I was referring 5 to? 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Have you admitted the document 7 into evidence? Did you want to make it simply an exhibit to 8 the deposition for the purposes of review later on? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: It's my understanding that at 10 deposition I'm not asking Your Honor to admit anything in 11 evidence. I'm just marking it for purposes of the 12 deposition. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So then if it's marked 14 for the purposes of the deposition, and you wish to make it 15 available to Judge Lamberth, we can incorporate it by 16 reference. There's no need to read it. Let's move on. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever received notification that you're a 19 target of a federal or state investigation? 20 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Application of the privilege will 22 be sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Have you ever received notification of any kind 25 that you were a subject of a federal or state investigation? 72 1 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It will be sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Has anyone ever told you in writing or orally that 5 you are in danger of prosecution? 6 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It will be sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Since the date of your last deposition, October 29, 10 1996, excluding your counsel at Hogan & Hartson, have you 11 discussed this lawsuit, brought by Judicial Watch against the 12 U.S. Department of Commerce, with anyone? 13 MR. COBB: Objection, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 15 be sustained. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, how would just a general 17 identification as to whether he's discussed it with anyone 18 incriminate him? I haven't even identified who it would be 19 that he discussed it with? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Because there is a possibility 21 hanging over this witness's head, by virtue of what Judge 22 Lamberth has already decided, that his testimony, prior 23 testimony was perjurious, his admission that he had any 24 discussions with anyone might tend to expose him to 25 incrimination for obstruction of justice or for perjury. 73 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Let me ask, then, this way. From the date of your 3 last deposition on October 29th -- not that I'm agreeing with 4 Your Honor's ruling, with all due respect, but I'm just 5 trying to tailor it to it -- from October 29, 1996 up to and 6 including December 21, 1998, the day prior to Judge Lamberth 7 issuing his order denying the Clinton Administration's motion 8 for summary judgment, did you ever have any discussions with 9 anyone concerning this case, other than your counsel? 10 MR. COBB: Your Honor, I'm not sure that 11 sufficiently -- I'm not sure that modifies in any respect the 12 Fifth Amendment applicability to the previous question. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I still believe the privilege 14 applies, and I will sustain its application. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Mr. Huang, do you currently reside in Glendale, 17 California? 18 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor, invoke the privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go outside. 20 (A discussion was held off the record at 11:47 21 a.m.) 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Counsel have authorized me and 23 permitted me to tell you that the reason for their objection 24 is that in any criminal offense, venue must be proven beyond 25 a reasonable doubt. They therefore object to the defendant 74 1 giving testimony on the grounds that it's barred by the Fifth 2 Amendment. I will sustain the application of the privilege 3 on that ground. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Let me change the word "reside" to "live." 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's academic. There's no 7 difference whatsoever. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you spending most of your time in Glendale, 10 California? 11 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The application of the privilege 13 will be sustained. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason I'm asking -- 15 VIDEOGRAPHER: Please, we're not on video record. 16 Stand by. Stand by. We're back on video record at 11:49. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: During the time when we were not 18 on video record, the questions with reference to whether (a), 19 the witness resides in Glendale, or (b), lives in Glendale 20 were sustained after counsel advised me that venue is a 21 necessary element of the Government's case, and therefore an 22 admission by the witness might tend to incriminate him. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask the question this way. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Since your last deposition on October 29, 1996, 75 1 what states of the United States, if any, have you been in 2 for a day or more? 3 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to sustain the 5 application of the privilege, and I'm also going to find that 6 that question is patently irrelevant. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason it's not irrelevant, Your 8 Honor, is because this deals with where documents that should 9 have been produced in this case may be located. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I persist in my ruling. If you 11 want to ask him where he kept certain documents, please go 12 ahead. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Mr. Huang, where do you keep documents from October 15 1, 1996 forward to the present? 16 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Application of the privilege will 18 be sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q From October 1, 1996 to the present, have you 21 spoken with anyone at the White House other than the people 22 that you identified in your first deposition session on 23 October 29, 1996? 24 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 76 1 be sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Is Vanessa Weaver related to Vernon Weaver? 4 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 6 be sustained. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: How would that tend to incriminate 8 him, Your Honor? 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You haven't told me who Mr. Weaver 10 is or who these people are. I therefore believe, on the 11 basis of counsel's assertion of the privilege, that they have 12 decided that it would. If you want to make a proffer that it 13 cannot possibly incriminate him, I will listen. 14 But you cannot, consistent with the Fifth 15 Amendment, pull two names out of the sky, Mr. Klayman, and 16 demand the witness answer, when there is a risk, that I don't 17 see, but they do, that his admission the knows these people 18 may tend to incriminate him. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: May I ask for reconsideration on this 20 basis? The case law is clear, there is no dispute on this, 21 that the burden is not on the party asking the questions, the 22 burden is on the party answering the questions. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But I have to use my discretion, 24 Mr. Klayman, and when you pull two names out of the sky 25 without any introduction, and this witness asserts the Fifth 77 1 Amendment privilege, without a clearer explanation by you of 2 who those people are and why the answer would not tend to 3 incriminate him, I will sustain the privilege. 4 Now, if you wish to proffer who these people are 5 and explain to me why the answer cannot possibly incriminate 6 this gentleman, I will be glad to hear from you. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask the witness that question. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Who is Vanessa Weaver? 10 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 11 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I would also object as 12 beyond the scope of discovery. Who are these people? How 13 are they possibly relevant to the permissible discovery in 14 this case. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Unless you make a proffer who 16 these people are, I am going to sustain both objections. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Vanessa Weaver is someone who works 18 in the Personnel Office of the White House. Vernon Weaver 19 was the managing head, as I understand it, of Stevens, Inc., 20 which is a company with headquarters in Arkansas, with an 21 office across the street from the Commerce Department. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 23 be sustained. 24 MS. BRASWELL: And, Your Honor, our objection 25 remains the same. 78 1 MR. KLAYMAN: The essence is, Your Honor, how would 2 my asking him whether he knows the two are related familial- 3 wise incriminate him? 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Because it may indicate knowledge 5 that would later be used against him. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever have contact with the Democratic 8 National Committee concerning how you, Mr. Huang, would 9 respond to Judicial Watch's subpoenas? 10 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 12 be sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Same question with regard to the White House? 15 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 17 be sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you own a motel in San Francisco? 20 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 23 sustained and also on the grounds of relevance. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Have you ever kept documents at that motel, 79 1 assuming you own it? 2 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor, and assumes 3 facts not in evidence. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 5 be sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you own two properties -- 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q -- in California? 11 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection is on the grounds of 13 relevance? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection is beyond the scope. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I take it the question of the 16 properties has something to do with the locus or domicile of 17 the documents? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Among various matters, but until you 19 find out whether he owns them, we can't proceed to specify. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to sustain the 21 invocation and also the objection as irrelevant. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Forgive me if I asked the question, did you ever 24 have contact with the White House over compliance with the 25 subpoenas issued by Judicial Watch and the Court to you in 80 1 this case? 2 MR. COBB: You did ask that question. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Since October 1st -- 6 MR. COBB: I apologize, Your Honor, for direction 7 counsel directly. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No problem. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Since October 1, 1996, have you ever had contact of 11 any kind, written or oral, with a Ms. Melinda Yee? 12 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 14 will be sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did Ms. Yee ever advise you that she was going to 17 destroy documents concerning the trade mission to China in 18 the fall of 1995? 19 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q 1994? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 23 be sustained. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I misspoke, '94, '95. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In either instance, invocation of 81 1 the privilege will be sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Are you aware that Ms. Yee has testified that she 4 has destroyed documents related to that China trade mission? 5 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 7 be sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Do you know a John Tisdale? 10 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 12 be sustained. 13 MR. COBB: Actually, on two grounds. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please state them. 15 MR. COBB: Attorney-client and Fifth Amendment. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: For my edification, who is John 17 Tisdale? 18 MR. COBB: He is an attorney. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is he with Hogan & Hartson? 20 MR. COBB: No, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm not ruling on the attorney- 22 client privilege, but I going to rule on the grounds of the 23 invocation of the privilege. It's unnecessary to rule in 24 terms of attorney-client privilege. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 82 1 Q From October 1, 1996 to the present, have you had 2 any contact, oral or written, with Norah and Jean Lum? 3 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor, invocation. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Ms. Maria Hsia? 6 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He's going to go through all of 8 them. 9 MR. COBB: I'm sorry, do you want -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you want to go through a list 11 of names? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Ms. Maria Hsia, H-s-i-a. 16 MR. COBB: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I think the 17 confusion here is do you want to go through a list of names 18 first or do you want him to answer -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to do one by one. 20 MR. COBB: Okay. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll just give the name. It's the 22 same pending predicate to the question. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Fine. 24 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, perhaps I can just raise 83 1 a continuing objection. Without any indication of who these 2 people are or what their relevancy is to the scope of 3 discovery in this case, I'll just have a continuing objection 4 to his list of names. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Both objection, the invocation of 6 the privilege will be sustained and the objection of Ms. 7 Braswell on the grounds of relevance will be sustained, as 8 well. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me make a proffer on that, Your 10 Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please do so. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Ms. Maria Hsia is someone who 13 is part of a group of individuals that are close with Mr. 14 Huang, with whom he worked on campaign finance matters. 15 There is evidence which the Court referred to as 16 late as its last order of April 9th that Mr. Huang has 17 engaged in improper campaign finance activities during his 18 time with the Commerce Department, and Ms. Hsia did play a 19 role in matters that involved the Commerce Department. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And the invocation of the 21 privilege is sustained and renders academically moot whether 22 they determined that or not. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: So you're not going to sustain o 24 nothing basis? 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't have to. I don't have to 84 1 rule on academically moot issues. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Charlie Tree. 4 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Johnny Chung. 7 MR. COBB: Invocation. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q The Central Intelligence Agency. 10 MR. COBB: Invocation. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q National Security Agency. 13 MR. COBB: Invocation. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Department of Defense. 16 MR. COBB: Invocation. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 18 will be sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Mickey Kantor. 21 MR. COBB: Invocation. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In each instance. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q And when I say the Central Intelligence Agency, 85 1 anybody by or on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency. 2 MR. COBB: Invocation. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q National Security Agency. 5 MR. COBB: Invocation. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Department of Defense. 8 MR. COBB: Invocation. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Which is sustained in each 10 instance. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Right. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you ever done anything on behalf of the 14 Central Intelligence Agency? 15 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 17 be sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Have you ever done anything on behalf of the 20 National Security Agency? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 22 be sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q The Department of Defense? 25 MR. COBB: Invocation. 86 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever worked for either of those three 3 agencies? 4 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 6 will be sustained in each instance. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you ever worked, with or without remuneration, 9 for either of those three agencies, the CIA, NSA, or 10 Department of Defense? 11 MR. COBB: Invocation, and again, based on my own 12 interpretation of the Judge's order, well beyond the scope. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 14 be sustained. 15 MS. BRASWELL: And I concur in that. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Since October 1, 1996, have you had any contact, 18 oral or written, with Sandy Berger? 19 MR. COBB: Invocation. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 22 be sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Sandy Berger was a 25 partner at Hogan & Hartson before becoming National Security 87 1 Advisor? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 MR. COBB: Invocation. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 5 be sustained and the objection on relevance will also be 6 sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you had any contact since October 1, 1996, 9 oral or written, with Bruce Lindsey? 10 MR. COBB: Invocation. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Jane Sherburne? 13 MR. COBB: Invocation. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Jack Quinn? 16 MR. COBB: Invocation. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Lannie Davis? 19 MR. COBB: Invocation. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Anyone at the White House? 22 MR. COBB: Invocation. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Anyone working with the White House? 25 MR. COBB: Invocation. 88 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me. The invocation of the 2 privilege will be sustained in each instance. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q James Carville? 5 MR. COBB: Invocation. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Harold Ickes? 8 MR. COBB: Invocation. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 10 will be sustained in both instances. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Alexis Herman? 13 MR. COBB: Invocation. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Leon Panetta? 16 MR. COBB: Invocation. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q John Podesta? 19 MR. COBB: Invocation. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Jude Kearney? 22 MR. COBB: Invocation. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 24 will be sustained in each instance. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 89 1 Q Janice Stewart? 2 MR. COBB: Invocation and scope, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I have a continuing 5 objection. I can keep doing that, but I have a continuing 6 objection to the list of names, on the grounds of scope. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Both objections will be sustained. 8 Did you want to make a proffer as to Weaver, Mr. Klayman, and 9 why she is relevant? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Alexis Herman, you mean? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You said Weaver. 12 MR. COBB: I said Janice Stewart, Your Honor. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Janice Stewart. She was his 14 secretary. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Whose secretary? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Huang's. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you had any contact with her? 19 MR. COBB: I think we invoked and raise a scope 20 objection, which were sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Helena Melanowsky. Am I pronouncing that correct? 23 MR. COBB: Just so the record is clear, Your Honor, 24 was my interpretation correct? 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, I got interrupted in 90 1 mid-sentence. Let's back up a bit with the names we were at. 2 I had sustained when we hit Weaver. 3 MR. COBB: Stewart, Your Honor. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Stewart. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And then there was another name 6 that I don't remember, which was Mr. Huang's secretary, 7 Milachowsky? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Helena Melanowsky -- 9 MS. BRASWELL: Stewart was the secretary. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In either instance, I am 11 sustaining the assertion of the privilege that Mr. Cobb has 12 made as to each of the names that Mr. Klayman has used. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Any by or on behalf of the Democratic National 15 Committee? 16 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 18 will be sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Rob Stein? 21 MR. COBB: Invocation. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q William Ginsberg? 24 MR. COBB: Invocation. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 91 1 will be sustained and the objection, Ms. Braswell's objection 2 on relevancy will be sustained, as well. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q William Daly? 5 MR. COBB: Invocation. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 8 will be sustained. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me, if you want a proffer, Your 10 Honor, I'll give you a proffer. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please, let me finish. The Court 12 is taking judicial notice of the fact that Mr. Daly is the 13 Secretary of Commerce. 14 Do you wish to speak, Mr. Klayman? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I ask for reconsideration on 16 the objection of relevancy, and I'll make a proffer on that. 17 Is the relevancy for Mr. Daly or is it for somebody else? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will sustain the objection as to 19 the -- excuse me. I will sustain the invocation of the 20 privilege as to Mr. Daly. On the question of relevancy, I 21 would consider it academically moot and not rule on it. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Mr. Huang, when did you work at the Department of 24 Commerce? 25 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 92 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 2 will be sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q During the time that you worked for the Department 5 of Commerce, did you ever take any Commerce Department 6 documents outside of the building? 7 MR. COBB: Invocation, and highly self-evident. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 9 will be sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you ever send any documents outside of the 12 building? 13 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you ever send any documents concerning the 17 subject trade missions outside of the building? 18 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever take any documents concerning the 22 subject trade missions out of the building? 23 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 93 1 Q Did you ever transmit any documents of the Commerce 2 Department outside of the building? 3 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you ever take any documents concerning the 7 Department of Commerce out of the building? 8 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you have access to classified documents when 12 you were at the Commerce Department? 13 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know what classified documents are? 17 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you have a top secret clearance? 21 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Did you ever give any classified documents of the 25 United States to the government of China? 94 1 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever give any classified documents of the 5 Government of the United States to any person acting by or on 6 behalf of the government of China? 7 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you ever give any documents concerning the 11 United States, that were classified, to anyone other than 12 someone who was qualified to look at those documents? 13 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you ever shred documents at the Commerce 17 Department when you worked there? 18 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever destroy documents at the Commerce 22 Department when you worked there? 23 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 95 1 Q Did you ever shred documents that were required to 2 be produced in this case? 3 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you ever destroy documents that were required 7 to be produced in this case? 8 MR. COBB: Invoke -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 10 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know Mr. Ira Sockowitz? 13 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 15 be sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. 18 Sockowitz about the removal of classified satellite 19 encryptions from the Department of Commerce? 20 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. 24 Sockowitz about the removal of three CIA reports, classified, 25 on China, Russia, and India, from the Department of Commerce? 96 1 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Are you aware that such documents were removed from 5 the Department of Commerce? 6 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Did you play any role of any kind in planning or 10 implementing Department of Commerce trade missions? 11 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Same question with regard to the trade missions 15 subject to this lawsuit. 16 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Have you ever made any statement that you played a 20 role in trade missions to the Asian Pacific region? 21 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor, 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 23 (Pause.) 24 MR. COBB: Your Honor, I apologize for hogging all 25 the water, but there is some here. 97 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think you did that right after 2 you broke my table. 3 (Laughter.) 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may we take a one-minute 5 break to go to the restroom. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's see if we could sort 7 of discuss procedures for the rest of the day. 8 It was my own intention to see if we could go to 9 12:30 and break for lunch until 1:30. We'll see where we are 10 after that. Is that sensible to everyone? 11 MR. COBB: Yes, Your Honor. 12 MS. BRASWELL: That's fine, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I take it you would all like a 14 break for a moment now to use the mens' room, the ladies' 15 room. Is that what you would like to do? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I apologize, Your Honor. I didn't 17 hear how long you want to go. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I thought we'd go until 12:30. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Can you make it to 12:30? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Mr. Huang, do you know whether or not contributions 24 to the Democratic National Committee played a role in the 25 selection of participants on Commerce Department trade 98 1 missions. 2 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you know whether or not political contributions 5 to the Clinton-Gore campaign in 1996 played a role in 6 selecting participants on Commerce Department trade missions? 7 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained to that and to the prior 9 question as well. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know whether or not political contributions 12 to any political candidate of any political party played a 13 role in selecting participants for trade missions -- 14 MR. COBB: In -- 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q -- by the Commerce Department? 17 MR. COBB: I apologize for interrupting. 18 Invocation, Your Honor. 19 MS. BRASWELL: And, Your Honor, I have an objection 20 to this whole line of questioning which doesn't seek any 21 information concerning documents. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Ms. Braswell. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: That's the foundation, but I can't 24 get to that if I can't even get the response. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection, Ms. Braswell's 99 1 objection will be overruled, but the invocation of the 2 privilege will be sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q During the trade missions that are the subject of 5 this case and particularly the one in 1994 to China, did any 6 of the trade mission participants have access to intelligence 7 agents of the Government of China? 8 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 10 be sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q On the trade mission to China in 1994, were there 13 any discussions between U.S. government officials, American 14 businesses and Chinese officials about the transfer of high 15 technology to the Chinese? 16 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 18 be sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you, Mr. Huang, play any role in coordinating 21 activities of the Department of Commerce by or on behalf of 22 Lippo Group in negotiating joint venture projects where Lippo 23 Group is involved on Commerce Department trade missions? 24 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 100 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 2 be sustained. Ms. Braswell's objection will be overruled. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q On the trade mission to China in 1994 or any other 5 trade mission to China, were there discussions about 6 transferring American satellite technology to the Chinese? 7 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection to the extent it seeks 9 information regarding trade missions that are not at issue in 10 this case. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the trade mission to China is 12 at issue in 1994. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q On that mission, Mr. Huang, is it not correct that 15 Mr. Bernard Schwartz of Loral Corporation went on that trade 16 mission? 17 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 19 be sustained. 20 Ms. Braswell's objection will be overruled in part 21 and sustained in part with reference to trade missions that 22 are not subject to the FOIA request. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Is it not true that Mr. Schwartz on behalf of Loral 25 Corporation was selected for that trade mission on the basis 101 1 of political contributions to the Democratic National 2 Committee and the Clinton-Gore campaign? 3 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 5 will be sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You have knowledge, do you know, Mr. Huang, that 8 Mr. Schwartz of Loral Corporation or others at Loral 9 Corporation passed classified information without 10 authorization by the United States to the Chinese on that 11 trade mission to China? 12 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. Beyond the 14 scope. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 16 be sustained. 17 Could someone please repeat the question? Ms. 18 Braswell? 19 MS. BRASWELL: It's my understanding that he was 20 asking whether or not a non-Department of Commerce employee 21 passed certain information to officials in China. That has 22 nothing to do with documents that were created or maintained 23 by the Department of Commerce and would be beyond the scope 24 of discovery in this case. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I'll ask some questions 102 1 which I think will tie that up. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Is it not true that -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll hold my ruling until Mr. 6 Klayman has cleared it up. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Is it not true that at the time of the trade 9 mission to China in 1994, the Commerce Department through its 10 Bureau of Export Administration had to license the transfer 11 of high technology overseas? 12 MR. COBB: At the risk of not clearing it up, Your 13 Honor, he would respectfully invoke his privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 15 will be sustained. 16 MS. BRASWELL: And the objection -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And without an answer, Ms. 18 Braswell, it's awfully hard to rule on your objection, so I 19 -- I just won't do that. There are going to be certain 20 instances where you can appreciate that my ability to rule on 21 your objection is a function of the fact that I can't get any 22 information as to the prior question and that's the quandary 23 I'm in right now. 24 MS. BRASWELL: I understand, Your Honor. There's 25 many times when I won't raise the objection because the 5th 103 1 Amendment objection is being raised and sustained. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand your point, Ms. 3 Braswell, and thank you. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, the other reason why the 5 invocation of the privilege to these questions is not 6 applicable is because I'm asking about other people's 7 conduct, not his. On it's face. On it's face. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, you can't be serious. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I am serious because, you see, again 10 the burden is being shifted to the party asking the questions 11 which is contrary -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Suppose the United States Attorney 13 for the Southern District of New York called John Gotti, Jr., 14 before the grand jury and asked him if he was aware that his 15 father had killed someone. Do you think John Gotti could 16 claim the 5th Amendment? John Gotti, Jr. Would it be 17 anything else? Would he have any grounds not to do that -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: If he was part of the murder -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- merely because the murder that 20 he's inquiring about was not committed by him. The knowledge 21 of someone else's commission of the crime can impose various 22 forms of criminal liability, accessorial liability being the 23 first and compensatorial liability being the second. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Not unless the -- 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Indeed, under the common law cry 104 1 of misprision, Mr. Klayman, it is a crime not to raise a 2 human cry when one sees a felony. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: In misprision -- sorry. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So, therefore, inquiry as to this 5 witness' knowledge of the commission of crime falls directly 6 within it under the common law tradition. So, therefore, the 7 invocation of the privilege will be sustained. 8 MR. COBB: Your Honor, if I might? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if that was the case, in 10 all due respect -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's not "if that was the case." 12 That is the case. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: But, no -- but it's not always the 14 case. It's not always the case. And particularly if the 15 murder has already been committed, it's not always the case. 16 Perhaps it may be the case if there was a murder that was 17 contemplated. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. You're wrong. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Even lawyers don't have to turn their 20 clients in for murders that had been committed. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Because there's lawyers. It has 22 nothing to do with the principle of accessorial liability. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please continue. 25 MR. COBB: Your Honor, and also for the record, the 105 1 common law of misprision is codified at 18 USC Section 3 as a 2 federal criminal offense. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I was unaware of that. Thank you, 5 sir. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Are you aware of classified information having been 8 provided to the Chinese, either their government or agents on 9 behalf of the government, persons or companies or other 10 entities by Hughes Corporation? 11 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 13 be sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You are aware the Hughes Corporation went on the 16 Department of Commerce trade mission to China? 17 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You are aware that various nuclear companies went 20 on the trade mission to China in 1994, American nuclear 21 companies? 22 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 106 1 those companies passed classified information to the Chinese 2 on those trade missions during that trade trip? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Or as a result of that trade trip? 8 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The privilege will be sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that various computer companies went 12 on a trade mission to China in 1994; correct? 13 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know whether or not those companies passed 17 classified information to the Chinese during that trade 18 mission or as a result of that trade mission? 19 MR. COBB: Invocation as to his knowledge globally 20 involving anything having to do with that trade mission. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q You know Hoyt Zia; do you not? 24 MR. COBB: Invocation. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 107 1 Q Do you know -- you are aware that Mr. Zia was a 2 political appointee in the Bureau of Export Administration at 3 the Commerce Department? 4 MR. COBB: Invocation. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The in -- the invocation of the 6 privilege will be sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. Huang, you during the period that you were at 9 the Commerce Department also participated in recommending 10 people for political appointment to the Clinton 11 Administration; correct? 12 MR. COBB: Invocation. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 14 be sustained. 15 MS. BRASWELL: And objection. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Who did you recommend for political appointment to 18 the Clinton Administration? 19 MR. COBB: Invocation. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 21 sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q At any time? 24 MR. COBB: I think that's covered by the prior -- 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think it is as well. The 108 1 invocation of the privilege is sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you recommend Mr. Hoyt Zia for appointment by 4 the Clinton Administration? 5 MR. COBB: The same objection. I believe it's 6 already been ruled upon. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I believe as well, but in case it 8 hasn't, I sustain the invocation. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did Mr. Zia participate with Mr. Sockowitz in 11 removing classified encryption data and CIA reports from the 12 Commerce Department? 13 MR. COBB: I think he was previously -- I would 14 invoke the privilege. I also believe he was previously asked 15 whether he knew anything about such conduct. I invoke the 16 privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In any event, the invocation of 18 the privilege will be sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever had any contact with any judicial 21 officers concerning this law suit? 22 MR. COBB: You know, I would invoke. I also 23 believe it's already been invoked and sustained as to a 24 question that would cover these individuals. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're going to have to clarify 109 1 for me, Mr. Klayman -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Not, not -- not you, no. Not you or 3 Judge Lamberth, no. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm lost. What do judicial 5 officers have to do with documents at the Department of 6 Commerce? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: It would deal with possible areas of 8 misconduct in this case, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Objection on the grounds of 10 relevance will be sustained. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it being sustained on the 5th 12 Amendment as well? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Being sustained on the grounds of 14 relevance. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you claiming the 5th Amendment? 16 MR. COBB: I did invoke it. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You did invoke it? 18 MR. COBB: Yes, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 20 will be sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Are you currently employed by anyone? 23 MR. COBB: Invoke, Your Honor. 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Counsel? 110 1 Off the record. 2 (Off the record at 12:19 p.m.) 3 (On the record at 12:23 p.m.) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 5 12:23. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to sustain the 7 invocation of privilege because questions with reference to 8 the defendant's present employment might tend to incriminate 9 him with reference to, for example, favoritism shown while he 10 was at the Department of Commerce with reference to certain 11 companies. I, therefore, sustain the invocation of the 12 privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Are you currently employed by more than one entity? 15 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection also as to scope. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And as to the privilege, I will 18 sustain the invocation of the privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever been employed by any foreign 21 government? 22 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will sustain the invocation of 24 the privilege. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 111 1 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 2 mark as Exhibit -- what is it? 17? 3 THE REPORTER: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: 16? 5 THE REPORTER: 17. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: 17. 7 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 17 8 was marked for identification.) 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Take an opportunity and review that, Mr. Huang. 11 A (Witness reviews exhibit.) 12 MR. COBB: Thank you, Mr. Klayman. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Mr. Huang, have you seen this document which 15 consists of four pages, Bates Number 755, 756, 757 and 758? 16 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. The question is 18 whether he's ever seen the document. 19 MR. COBB: Have you seen the document? Yes or no? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Turning to the last two pages and the handwritten 23 notations. That's your handwriting; isn't it? 24 MR. COBB: Invocation. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 112 1 sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You edited this document; didn't you? 4 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 6 sustained. 7 MR. COBB: I apologize for interrupting. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Go on, please. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q The last two pages which is, "DNC appoints John 11 Huang as it's new Vice Chair of National Finance." 12 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I object to any 14 questions concerning this document. It's beyond the scope of 15 permissible discovery. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why is this within the scope of 17 discovery, Mr. Klayman? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: My next question will point that out 19 if I can just get a ruling on the last question. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. I'll overrule the 21 claim of privilege and the objection subject to your next 22 question. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Third paragraph, "DNC appoints John Huang as its 113 1 new Vice Chair of National Finance. Prior to being appointed 2 DNC Vice Chair of Finance, Huang was the Principal Deputy 3 Assistant Secretary for International Economic Policy, 4 International Trade Administration of the U.S. Department of 5 Commerce. As Deputy Assistant Secretary at Commerce, Huang 6 advised the late Commerce Secretary, Ron Brown, in many of 7 Brown's trade missions to several Pacific Rim countries." 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. In light of that, the 9 invocation -- I'm sorry. What was your next question, 10 please? What do you wish him to answer -- 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q That's an accurate statement; is it not, Mr. Huang? 13 MR. COBB: Invocation. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 15 will be sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You wrote that statement; did you not, Mr. Huang? 18 MR. COBB: Invocation. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 20 be sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q If you did not write that statement, you approved 23 that statement being published to the public; correct? 24 MR. COBB: In light of the previous two rulings, no 25 conceivable way that question -- 114 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 2 will be sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You previously testified that you had almost no 5 role in Department of Commerce overseas trade missions; 6 correct? 7 MR. COBB: Invocation. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 9 sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q When you refer to Pacific -- when it is referred to 12 Pacific Rim countries in this statement, you are referring to 13 China as well; correct? 14 MR. COBB: Invoke -- invocation and it assumes 15 facts not in evidence. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 17 sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q What role did you play in advising Secretary Brown 20 with regard to trade missions to several Pacific Rim 21 countries? 22 MR. COBB: Invocation. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 24 sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 115 1 Q Did you ever ask to see classified material to 2 assist you in advising Secretary Brown on trade missions to 3 several Pacific Rim countries? 4 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 6 sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you ever request to see information concerning 9 China that was classified while you were at the Commerce 10 Department? 11 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 13 sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you ever request to see information on the 16 energy industry, conventional and nuclear, and/or nuclear 17 while you were at the Department of Commerce? 18 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Is it not true that -- let me read the next, the 23 next sentence to lay the foundation of this document. 24 "Before holding his position as Deputy Assistant Secretary, 25 Huang enjoyed a successful career in banking and business as 116 1 president of USA operations and director of Lippo Group, one 2 of the largest Indonesian and Hong Kong based conglomerates. 3 In addition, he also served as vice chairman of Lippo Bank, 4 California, the oldest Chinese bank in the United States." 5 Is that a correct statement? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 MR. COBB: Invocation. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 9 sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you write that statement? 12 MR. COBB: Asked and sustained previously. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 14 sustained. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Let me take it that the same 16 objections, Your Honor, apply to everything in these two 17 pages that have been previously been registered. 18 MR. COBB: Well, let me -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't know. You have specified 20 specific statements. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy to go specific. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Cobb has, has objected to them 23 and I'm ruling on them seriatim. 24 MS. BRASWELL: I have a continuing objection, Your 25 Honor, to the entire document. 117 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand that, Ms. Braswell. 2 We'll get to that in a moment. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll, I mean I'll break it down. 4 That's fine. 5 MR. COBB: Well, let me -- if, if -- if I can help. 6 If I understand, your question is if you ask him, you know, 7 are particular statements in that document accurate or did he 8 author him, then the privilege will be invoked in response to 9 each of those questions. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And it will be sustained because 11 an admission of the accuracy of any portion of the statement 12 could incriminate as to an admission of the accuracy of the 13 rest of the statement. And the tendency -- the statements 14 concerning trade missions of the Lippo Group might tend to 15 incriminate this gentleman. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q At the time that this statement was written as 18 stated in the last paragraph where it says, "Huang is married 19 to Jane Huang." Were you married to her at that time? 20 MR. COBB: Invocation and marital privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 22 sustained on the grounds that an admission of the accuracy of 23 any of the statements in this document would be -- tend to 24 incriminate the defendant, Mr. Huang, because it could be 25 deemed an admission of the accuracy of the rest of the 118 1 statements in the document. And there are statements in the 2 document that could be incriminating. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Were any political campaign contributions made by 5 donors to the Democratic Party and/or the Clinton-Gore 6 campaign, which donors were selected for trade missions that 7 are the subject of this case ever recorded to your knowledge 8 under the name having been received by Jane Huang? 9 MR. COBB: Invocation. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 11 sustained. 12 All right. It is 12:30. We will break for lunch. 13 I would appreciate if counsel over the lunch hour 14 would give thought to two things. The first thing is I don't 15 know if I was right this morning when I sustained the 16 privilege as to five questions with reference to whether or 17 not this witness had contact with law enforcement agencies. 18 After lunch, I know Mr. Klayman's position, Mr. 19 Cobb, would you be so kind as to give that some thought over 20 lunch? I would like to revisit that issue. 21 Ms. Braswell, as far as you're -- as far as you're 22 concerned, as you noticed, I've been struggling all morning 23 when there is the invocation of the privilege and an 24 objection by relevancy by you. 25 At times, I think I am able to rule on the 119 1 relevancy despite the invocation of the privilege. At times, 2 I can't. It occurs to me that I haven't been as consistent 3 in that as I should be. And I wonder if the most appropriate 4 thing to do would simply be to vacate all of my rulings as to 5 relevance or irrelevance until we complete the deposition and 6 get a dispositive ruling from Judge Lamberth on the 5th 7 Amendment privilege and then return to those issues. I think 8 that makes for a cleaner record. 9 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, then should I no longer 10 continue to raise the objection? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, think about it over the 12 luncheon hour and we'll talk about it then. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm not certain that's what I'm 15 going to do. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But I would appreciate it if you 18 and Mr. Klayman give that some thought. 19 MS. BRASWELL: All right. 20 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: 1:30, please. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 23 12:32. 24 (Whereupon, at 12:32 p.m., a luncheon recess was 25 taken.) 120 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 3 1:33. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman and Ms. Braswell, did 5 you give any thought to that issue I raised with both of you? 6 MS. BRASWELL: The issue, Your Honor, concerned 7 vacating -- I just want to make sure that I restate it 8 correctly. Considered vacating the Court's prior rulings on 9 my objections regarding outside the scope of discovery. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah, the relevant objections. 11 MS. BRASWELL: Right. Which is -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then I overruled the reference to 13 the Fifth Amendment privilege that would be with the 14 understanding that you could renew whatever the objection 15 was. 16 MS. BRASWELL: And, Your Honor, we have no 17 objection to proceeding that way. If, in fact, we do that 18 then I am perfectly willing not to continue to raise those 19 objections when I hear a Fifth Amendment privilege objection 20 raised. I just don't want any of them waived. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 22 Mr. Klayman? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: So the issue, Your Honor, if I 24 understand it correctly, is whether you rule on the relevance 25 of the objections question by question. 121 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think what happened this morning 2 is that I was mistaken at times. I was inconsistent. On 3 occasion I ruled that because I sustained a claim of 4 privilege the question of whether or not it was relevant was 5 academic. 6 MS. BRASWELL: That's true. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: On other occasions forgetting that 8 I sustained the claim of privilege and also ruled on the 9 objection on it's relevance I think that doing the latter was 10 probably incorrect because I lack a sufficient evidentiary 11 predicate to make that ruling unless I know -- unless 12 abstractly I know what the answer to the question is. 13 So rather than leave Judge Lamberth with the messy 14 record unfortunately I have made I am of the view that what I 15 should do is simply vacate all the rulings I have made on 16 relevance and leave for another day the objections on the 17 grounds of relevance if we should reassemble and if the claim 18 of privilege is overruled. 19 MS. BRASWELL: With one caveat, Your Honor. I 20 believe there were a couple of times when the Court ruled on 21 an objection as to scope where there was no Fifth Amendment 22 privilege claim. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I remember, too. I am asking the 24 reporter to find them. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 122 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If you could help me, Mr. Cobb and 2 Mr. Keeney, if anybody could help me, do you remember either? 3 MR. COBB: One of them, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: One of them had to do with did not 5 assert the privilege with reference to a certain document. 6 MR. COBB: Right. To whether he had seen a certain 7 document. I believe that was the -- 8 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. Exhibit 17, perhaps? 9 MR. COBB: Exhibit -- no, no. 10 MS. BRASWELL: 16? 11 MR. COBB: Exhibit 16. 12 MS. BRASWELL: 16. 13 MR. KEENEY: Yes, irrelevance was sustained. We 14 did not invoke the privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Can I see it, please, 16 the document? 17 MR. COBB: Yes, Your Honor. I believe we also had 18 a scope objection as to the document, Your Honor. 19 MR. KEENEY: And we've located the second 20 reference, Your Honor, if you want that. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go through this. 22 All right. If you can, Mr. Klayman, why don't you 23 return to that and find questions about that if you would and 24 we'll start there. Then I'll decide what I'm going to do 25 with reference to the one instance where as I understand it 123 1 there was no claim of privilege but there was a claim of 2 objection -- of relevance. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, one other point that was 4 brought to my attention at lunch because we were trying to 5 proceed as quickly as possible this morning in moving the 6 question along, is that there were a number of questions 7 where Mr. Huang himself did not invoke the privilege but 8 counsel invoked the privilege. 9 What I'm going to ask is whether or not Mr. Huang 10 will now adopt those invocations of privilege. It's our 11 understanding that he must invoke the privilege. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I thought we had an understanding 13 that instead of reading that every time whenever Mr. Cobb 14 invoked the privilege it was a shorthand way of saying that 15 that was a substitute for Mr. Huang reading the statement. 16 That's my understanding. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: My concern -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you have that joint agreement? 19 MS. BRASWELL: That was my understanding, Your 20 Honor. 21 MS. BRASWELL: That was our understanding, Your 22 Honor. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like to just get a ratification 24 by Mr. Huang that every time Mr. Cobb invoked the privilege 25 he was invoking. 124 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Huang, this morning there have 2 been many instances where on your behalf Mr. Cobb and perhaps 3 Mr. Keeney asserted on your behalf the Fifth Amendment 4 privilege. The last time we were here you actually read the 5 statement. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman is inquiring whether 8 it is true that each time that Mr. Cobb or Mr. Keeting 9 objected to a question on the grounds of it invading your 10 privilege not to incriminate yourself they did so with your 11 consent and it was as if you invoked it yourself? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I would ask that for further 15 questions, Your Honor, even if we just abbreviate it, even to 16 say, "I'm invoking the privilege" that he do it rather than - 17 - 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: -- counsel because of the issue of 20 the conflict of interest, the potential for that. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Each time simply say, 22 "I invoke the privilege." That will suffice. Okay, Mr. 23 Huang? 24 THE WITNESS: (Nodding.) 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's return to 125 1 Exhibit No. 16 where, Mr. Klayman, you were making inquiry 2 about the stock and that there was no claim of privilege and 3 I think I sustained the objection as to relevancy. Let's 4 return to that document and let me hear you as to the 5 relevancy that I have expressed. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'm sorry. Before he 7 does that, has the Court decided that if I do not raise a 8 relevancy objection when the Fifth Amendment is claimed that 9 I have not waived that objection? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Unquestionably. 11 MS. BRASWELL: Thank you. 12 MR. COBB: And the deponent as well, Your Honor? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. 15 MR. COBB: Your Honor, and if I might just so the 16 record is clear on this, that there was only a single 17 question with regard to this document as to which the 18 privilege was not invoked. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 20 MR. COBB: There were a multitude of other 21 questions. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go through that just so that 23 the record is clear and we don't leave Judge Limpert with a 24 mess. 25 Mr. Klayman, would you please? 126 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Mr. Huang, I'm going to refer to Exhibit No. 16, 3 which is a response from the -- 4 MR. KEENEY: I think we have our copy for the 5 Judge. 6 MS. BRASWELL: You can use mine. 7 MR. KEENEY: Thanks. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q There's a letter of November 25, 1996 to Alan C. 10 Miller, Staff Writer, Los Angeles Times. "Dear Mr. Miller" 11 by Amy Weiss Tobe," T-o-b-e. 12 This document evidences, does it not, Mr. Huang -- 13 if you wish to take the opportunity to review it you may -- 14 contact with the White House by you during the period that US 15 Marshals were seeking to serve you with a subpoena in this 16 lawsuit in October of 1996? 17 A I invoke my privilege. 18 Q It states that -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 20 be sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q The second paragraph of this letter it states, 23 "It's our understanding" -- meaning the Democratic National 24 Committee -- "that Mr. Huang indicated a desire to go to the 25 Democratic National Committee in September 1995 meeting with 127 1 the President and Mr. Bruce Lindsay met with Mr. John Long 2 and referred him to Harold Ickes." Is that statement true? 3 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I sustain the invocation of 5 privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Is it true that the President also asked Mr. Ickes 8 to follow-up with Mr. Huang and Mr. Ickes met with Mr. Huang 9 and subsequently spoke to DNC Finance Chairman Marvin Rosen 10 about Mr. Huang's desire to work at the Democratic National 11 Committee?" 12 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 14 be sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Is it true that Mr. Ickes then told Mr. Huang to 17 call the DNC and that Mr. Huang's starting date, salary and 18 title to DNC were negotiated by the Finance Division and 19 Chairman Fowler? 20 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 22 will be sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Is it true that neither Mr. Ickes nor Mr. Lindsay 25 nor anyone else from the White House participated in these 128 1 matters? 2 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 4 will be sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Mr. Huang, were you recommended for your position 7 at the Democratic National Committee by Hillary Rodham 8 Clinton? 9 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 11 be sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Were you recommended by President William Jefferson 14 Clinton? 15 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 17 be sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you ever discuss the subject trade missions 20 that are part of this case with Hillary Rodham Clinton? 21 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 23 be sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Did you ever discuss them, meaning the subject 129 1 trade missions that are part of this case, with William 2 Jefferson Clinton? 3 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 5 be sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever discuss these trade missions -- and 8 tell if one of these names applies with Harold Ickes -- 9 A I invoke my privilege. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 11 be sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q -- with Alexis Herman? 14 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 16 be sustained. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q -- with Leon Panetta? 19 A Again. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 21 be sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q John Podesta? 24 A Again. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 130 1 be sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Marvin Rosen of the Democratic National Committee? 4 A Again. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 6 be sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Terry McAuliffe, Fundraiser of the Democratic 9 Party. 10 A Again. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 12 be sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you ever hear anyone say other than yourself 15 that seats on overseas trade missions to the Commerce 16 Department were being sold to campaign contributors? 17 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 19 be sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q When you worked at the Commerce Department your 22 secretary was Janice Stewart, correct? 23 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 24 MR. COBB: That was testified to before, Your 25 Honor, so there would be a waiver here. 131 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Or he invoked the privilege and I 2 sustained it. 3 MR. COBB: That's correct, Your Honor. 4 MS. BRASWELL: That's correct, Your Honor. Mr. 5 Klayman has said that she was his secretary. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I do so again. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: He testified to that. If I was able 8 to show that to you would that work a waiver under Your 9 Honor's reasoning? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Today he said that? 11 MS. BRASWELL: No, he did not, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you ever observe anyone at the Commerce 15 Department destroying documents? 16 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 18 be sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever observe anyone at the Commerce 21 Department shredding documents? 22 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 24 be sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 132 1 Q Did you ever observe anyone at the Commerce 2 Department removing documents to the Democratic National 3 Committee? 4 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 6 be sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you ever observe anyone at the Commerce 9 Department removing documents relevant -- strike that. 10 Did you ever observe anyone at the Commerce 11 Department removing documents which were the subject of 12 Judicial Watch's Freedom of Information Act request subject 13 to this case? 14 MR. COBB: Two objections, Your Honor. The 15 privilege requires a legal conclusion. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 17 will be sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Were you aware of Judicial Watch's Freedom of 20 Information Act requests that are subject to this case before 21 your deposition? 22 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 24 will be sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 133 1 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone at the Democratic 2 National Committee removing documents that were subject to 3 being produced in this case? 4 A Again, I -- 5 MR. COBB: And I also believe that that's 6 encompassed by a question that's already been sustained. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In any event, the invocation of -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Just trying to give some caution 9 again on the record since this document deals with these 10 kinds of matters. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone at the White House 13 removing documents which should have been produced in this 14 case? That were subject to production in this case? 15 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 17 will be sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone at the Democratic 20 National Committee leaving Washington during the period that 21 your name first surfaced in the Fall of 1996? 22 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 24 will be sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 134 1 Q Did you ever request reimbursement for expenses for 2 your having left Washington, D.C. during the period that your 3 name first became known publicly as associated with campaign 4 finance matters in the Fall of 1996? 5 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 7 will be sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 10 mark as Exhibit 18. 11 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 18 12 was marked for identification.) 13 Have you ever seen Exhibit 18 before, which is a 14 DNC expense report of John Huang, National Finance. It 15 states, "Purpose of travel stayed away from D.C." That's one 16 of the things it states. Have you ever seen this document 17 before? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Mr. Klayman, will you please give me 19 a copy of that? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 21 THE WITNESS: I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 23 will be sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Is this your handwriting on this document, Mr. 135 1 Huang? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Again, the invocation of the 4 privilege will be sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you sign this document? 7 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 8 Q Was the document signed on October 20, 1996? 9 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 10 Q Did you -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 12 sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone at the Democratic 15 National Committee and/or the White House as to whether or 16 not you were in violation of Court process by leaving 17 Washington, D.C. in the Fall of 1996? 18 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Turning to the last paragraph of Exhibit 16, "When 23 questions about DNC's fundraising arose in early October the 24 DNC consulted with the White House, specifically Mr. Ickes, 25 Mr. Lindsay and Ms. Jane Sherber, who assisted by offering 136 1 advice as questions arose." Is that a correct statement, Mr. 2 Huang? 3 MR. COBB: Again, Your Honor. 4 THE WITNESS: Again, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry. I'm going to have to 6 find the statement. Where is it, please? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Third paragraph, first page of 8 Exhibit 16. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 10 be sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Reading down in that paragraph, "Mr. Huang was 13 debriefed by DNC staff so that DNC could more fully respond 14 to media questions." Were you debriefed by DNC staff, Mr. 15 Huang? 16 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 17 Q What did you -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of privilege will 19 be sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What did you tell the DNC staff about your 22 activities by or on behalf of the Commerce Department during 23 that debriefing, if anything? 24 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 137 1 be sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q It states in the last line, "On one occasion Mr. 4 Huang participated in a telephone conversation between DNC 5 staff and Bruce Lindsay the subject of which was the 6 preparation of answers to questions from the newspaper 7 reporter." Is that a correct statement? 8 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 9 Q What, if anything, was -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 11 be sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What, if anything, was discussed between DNC staff 14 and Bruce Lindsay which related to your activities at the 15 Commerce Department? 16 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 17 Q Same -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 19 be sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q -- same question specifically with regard to the 22 subject trade missions. 23 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 25 be sustained. 138 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Were there any notes or memoranda prepared of these 3 discussions between yourself, Mr. Lindsay and DNC staff? 4 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 6 sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q During these discussions did you, Mr. Lindsay 9 and/or the DNC staff review any Commerce Department documents 10 referring or relating in any way to the subject trade 11 missions in this case? 12 MR. COBB: Your Honor, if I might at this point. 13 We've read this whole letter into the record once prior to 14 today. My only interest is the interest of time. 15 I think in an effort to make that point earlier I 16 indicated that to the extent that the truthfulness or lack 17 thereof of any of these statements or his knowledge of any of 18 those statements is put at issue by any question he would 19 properly invoke the privilege. I believe you indicated that 20 you would sustain it under the circumstances. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So be it. I think we're almost 22 finished. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I actually did not have this document 24 on the first deposition, Your Honor. 25 MR. COBB: No. I said this morning. 139 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please proceed. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q The second paragraph on page two, "After Judge 4 Lamberth requested that the DNC instruct Mr. Huang to report 5 to work to DNC offices on Monday, October 28, 1996 our 6 Chairman did so." Is that a correct statement? 7 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 9 sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you have any conversations with either Chairman 12 Fowler or Chairman Dodd of the Democratic National Committee 13 at the time concerning being served with Court subpoena in 14 this case? 15 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 17 sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Assuming any such discussions occurred, were there 20 any notes or documents made of those discussions? 21 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Did the Democratic National Committee staff discuss 140 1 the issue of complying with the Court process and Judge 2 Lamberth's orders with Mr. Ickes, Mr. Lindsay and Ms. 3 Sherber? 4 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 6 sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Were there any documents created reflecting any 9 such discussions? 10 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 12 sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q It then states, "Our counsel contacted Mr. Huang's 15 counsel and indicated that this request would be made and 16 that the letter from Chairman Fowler would indicate that Mr. 17 Huang would be terminated if he did not report to work." is 18 that a correct statement? 19 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 20 Q Have you been terminated from the Democratic 21 National Committee up to the present as being employed by the 22 Democratic National Committee? 23 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 24 Q Have you resigned from the Democratic National 25 Committee up to today? 141 1 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just a second. I want to talk to 3 counsel. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record. 5 (Off the record at 1:53 p.m.) 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to overrule the claim of 7 privilege. The witness will answer the question. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I have an objection 9 regarding the scope. Oh, I'm sorry. I don't think we're on 10 the record. 11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 1:57. 12 (Interruption to the proceedings.) 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Assertion of the privilege 14 overruled. Please answer the question. 15 VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please. We're back on 16 video record at 1:58. Continue. 17 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, we raised an objection 18 regarding the scope of discovery with respect to his 19 employment at the DNC. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Sir, did there come a point in time when your 23 employment at the Democratic National Committee ended? 24 A Yes, Mr. Klayman. 25 Q When was that? 142 1 A I can't remember. I can't remember exactly date. 2 Probably around the end of October, or sometime in November, 3 I think, 1994. 4 Q Was the termination -- 5 MR. COBB: 1996. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 1996. Excuse me. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Was the termination voluntary or involuntary? 9 MR. COBB: Invocation. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Application of the privilege will 11 be sustained. 12 MR. COBB: Can I get him to invoke it? 13 THE WITNESS: I would like to invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It will be sustained on the 15 grounds that the termination may lead to evidence with 16 reference to Mr. Huang's alleged failure to comply with the 17 subpoena, being grounds for incrimination. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: There was no such testimony, Your 19 Honor. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, but the problem I'm trying to 21 figure out here is whether there's a possibility of 22 incrimination. It's quite clear to me from the letter that 23 there may be some relationship between the reason for his 24 termination and the fact that he did not comply with the 25 subpoena. 143 1 An answer to your question that you just posed 2 seems to me to provide a link in the chain as to whether or 3 not he left the DNC because of his failure to comply with 4 Judge Lamberth's subpoena. Failure to comply with Judge 5 Lambert's subpoena would be contempt. Questions as to that 6 seem to me to invade the Fifth Amendment. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask some other questions, just 8 to have them on the record. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Were you terminated for failure to comply with 12 Judge Lamberth's subpoena? 13 THE WITNESS: I would like to invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 15 be sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Were you terminated because you had engaged in 18 illegal campaign finance activities? 19 MR. COBB: Again -- 20 THE WITNESS: Again, I would like to invoke my 21 privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 23 be sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Were you terminated because you had passed 144 1 classified Government information to any foreign power or 2 anyone who was not authorized to obtain that information? 3 THE WITNESS: Again, I invoke my privilege. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 5 be sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Were you terminated because you were made a 8 scapegoat by Chairman Fowler and Chairman Dodd? 9 THE WITNESS: Again, I invoke my privilege. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 11 be sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you play any role in devising a Democratic 14 National Committee defense to blame those people who were 15 investigating the campaign finance scandal by calling them 16 racists? 17 MR. COBB: Again -- 18 THE WITNESS: Again, I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 20 be sustained. 21 MR. COBB: Additionally, Your Honor, I have a scope 22 objection to this entire line of questioning. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Just a proffer for the record, Your 25 Honor. That question would bear on intent. 145 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So be it. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you ever help prepare or review any Department 4 of Commerce press releases about this lawsuit? 5 THE WITNESS: Again, I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 7 be sustained. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark as Exhibit 19. 10 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 19 11 was marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 19? 14 THE WITNESS: I would like to invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 16 be sustained. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Take an opportunity to review this 18 document, Mr. Huang. 19 MR. COBB: Your Honor, can I have a moment with my 20 client? 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 22 (A discussion was held off the record.) 23 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 2:03. 24 MR. COBB: Your Honor, consistent with our 25 obligations to the Court, and to the parties, as well, I 146 1 needed to confer with my client to determine whether the 2 previous invocation of the privilege was appropriate, and 3 based on that consultation, I've concluded that it is not and 4 that I would withdraw our invocation of the privilege as to 5 the question as to whether he has ever seen Exhibit 19. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. It's withdrawn. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 19? 9 A No, Mr. Klayman. 10 Q Is there anything that is written in Exhibit 19 11 that you discussed with anyone at the Commerce Department, 12 the Democratic National Committee, or the White House, at any 13 time? 14 MR. COBB: Invocation. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 16 be sustained. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I will ask the court 18 reporter to mark as Exhibit 20. 19 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 20 20 was marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I'm showing you Exhibit 20, which is a memorandum 23 from Bill Canico, director of APA. What is APA, Mr. Huang? 24 MR. COBB: Objection. Invocation. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 147 1 THE WITNESS: You know, I think APA stands for, to 2 my knowledge, Asian Pacific American, APA. Is that the 3 question you had. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Right. And who is Bill Canico? Is he director of 6 some organization? 7 MR. COBB: Invocation. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, then, Your Honor, on the 10 grounds that this is all outside the scope of permissible 11 discovery. 12 MR. COBB: And I'd like to be heard on this. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 14 MR. COBB: Consistent with the procedure. 15 (A discussion was held off the record at 2:06 p.m.) 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Off-the-record proffer has 17 convinced me -- off this record -- has convinced me that a 18 positive answer on any of these questions -- 19 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're not on the record. Stand by. 20 We're back on video record at 2:09. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: On the basis of a proffer made to 22 me by counsel, I have now been convinced that the question 23 would provide a link in the chain of incrimination for this 24 witness, because a connection, if any, between him and this 25 gentleman, Mr. Canico, may well be a matter of some 148 1 investigation by someone. 2 Accordingly, I will sustain the invocation of the 3 privilege. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it on the ex parte confidential 5 record what that investigation is, Your Honor? 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, it isn't. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we get that on the record? 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: There's no necessity to do so. 9 Suffice it to say there is an investigation. That satisfies 10 me. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason I ask that is there has 12 been raised, in the context of this case, both in the order 13 of December 22nd and the order of April 9th, a question about 14 statements made by counsel for Mr. Huang as to whether they 15 were accurate or not. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm convinced they are accurate, 17 the statements just made to me were accurate, by officers of 18 the court. I see no reason to entertain any additional 19 information about that. You may proceed. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Is it your position, Mr. Huang, that you're 22 testifying today based on racism against Asian Americans? 23 MR. COBB: Invocation. 24 THE WITNESS: I would like to invoke my privilege. 25 MR. COBB: And I would also like to object 149 1 generally to the characterization. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to sustain you in 3 invocation of the privilege, and I'm also going to sustain 4 Mr. Cobb's latter objection. I do not see the relevancy of 5 asking this witness to characterize the nature of this 6 investigation and the nature of this deposition. 7 I think that demeans the Court in the most obvious 8 way, and I will not permit it. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: That was raised not by plaintiff, 10 that was raised by Mr. Huang and his counsel, previously in 11 the pleadings. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Be that as it may, we will not 13 inquire into that matter in this deposition. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: As late as yesterday, it was raised 15 in the pleadings. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Fine, Mr. Klayman. We will not 17 inquire into that matter during this deposition. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I will ask the 19 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 21. 20 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 21 21 was marked for identification.) 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Before I ask you about Exhibit 21 23 -- do you have a copy? 24 MS. BRASWELL: No, I don't. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Braswell has a copy. 150 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever had any discussions with Senator 3 Christopher Dodd about Judicial Watch's lawsuit? 4 MR. COBB: Invocation. 5 THE WITNESS: I would like to invoke my privilege, 6 please. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 8 be sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did Senator Christopher Dodd tell you to leave town 11 so you wouldn't be served with a Judicial Watch/Court 12 subpoena? 13 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 15 be sustained. 16 MR. COBB: May I have a moment, Your Honor? 17 (Counsel conferred with the witness.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did Senator Dodd ever discuss with you whether or 20 not trade mission seats were being sold at the Commerce 21 Department in exchange for campaign contributions? 22 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 24 be sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 151 1 Q Assuming any such discussions, were any documents 2 created evidencing those conversations? 3 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: invocation of the privilege will 5 be sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever have any such discussions with 8 Chairman Fowler about whether or not seats on trade missions 9 were being sold for campaign contributions at the Commerce 10 Department? 11 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 12 Q Were any such documents -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: invocation of the privilege will 14 be sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Were any such documents created? 17 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 21 is a document from Phil 19 Tijitsu Nash to Bill Canico. Your Honor, I won't get back 20 into it in light of your rulings. It also makes reference to 21 these racial issues. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 24 (Counsel conferred with the witness.) 25 MR. KEENEY: Your Honor, can we just lodge a 152 1 protective Fifth Amendment, and meet outside the room? We 2 have some uncertainty as to whether it's properly invoked 3 here. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please come with me. 5 MR. KEENEY: I'd like to actually bring the witness 6 with us, too, Your Honor. 7 (A discussion was held off the record at 2:15 p.m.) 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. Stand by. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: A word from the transcribers. 10 Number (1), we are all doing a very poor job of projecting 11 our voices and me, in particular, so please keep your voices 12 up. And (2) we are also doing a miserable job of cutting 13 each other off. So, please, let's all wait for the other 14 person to finish. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 16 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I believe the question that was 18 pending was whether Mr. Huang had ever seen Exhibit 21 19 before. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And he has now withdrawn his 21 privilege and will answer your question. 22 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, but I would like to 23 raise an objection to any questions concerning this document, 24 that it is clearly outside the scope of permissible 25 discovery. I mean this is a document concerning activities 153 1 in October 1996. It has nothing to do with the Department of 2 Commerce or documents in this case. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That will be overruled. 4 MR. COBB: And for the record, we join in the scope 5 objection. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: It bears on intent, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I've overruled the objection. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. I just was putting it on the 11 record. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I know you also said they didn't have 14 to put that on the record, so, I apologize. I didn't mean to 15 make it more complicated. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No problem. Fine. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You don't believe you've ever seen 19 it? 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I'm going to show you what I'll ask the court 23 reporter to mark as Exhibit 22. 24 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 22 25 was marked for identification.) 154 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q This is a document which was produced by the 3 Democratic National Committee. It's, "Clinton Administration 4 Asian-Pacific American Appointees." It was produced, I'll 5 represent from the Democratic National Committee with the 6 representation that it came from your files. 7 Did this document come from your files, Mr. Huang? 8 MR. COBB: Invocation. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Can Mr. Huang invoke it? 10 MR. COBB: Yeah, he can, on the advice of counsel 11 as he is permitted to do. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, has he read the document? 13 THE WITNESS: Not yet. I'm reading it. You know, 14 give me a few minutes, a couple of minutes. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please take your time. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 THE WITNESS: I would like to -- Your Honor, I 18 would like to invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Counsel? 20 (Off the record at 2:27 p.m. proffer with counsel.) 21 (Back on the record at 2:31 p.m.) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on, we're back on 23 video record at 2:31. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Assertion of the privilege 25 overruled. 155 1 MR. COBB: Can we have a moment with our client, 2 Your Honor? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 4 (Witness confers with counsel.) 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please. 6 (Off the record.) 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 8 2:36 p.m. 9 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I would raise an -- I 10 would raise an objection to any questions concerning 11 Deposition Exhibit 22 as being outside the scope of 12 discovery. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 14 MR. COBB: Your Honor, outside the scope objection, 15 but I've also advised my client to invoke his privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So that means that if I were to 17 direct him to answer, he would say, "No." 18 MR. COBB: He would rely on his privilege, Your 19 Honor, yes. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Huang, you must answer the 21 question. If you persist in doing -- in still refusing to 22 answer the question, I will have to do -- do a report of 23 recommendation to Judge Lamberth about that. Do you know 24 that? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I realize that, yes, sir. 156 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You still are not going to answer 2 the question, so now, you may move, I take it, Mr. Klayman, 3 that we hold him in contempt. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. I would just ask Your Honor, 5 to be clear and link it up with what you said this morning, 6 that the recommendation would be that you would recommend 7 that he be held in contempt. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is that the right way for you to 9 move today? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. I move for him to be held in 11 contempt. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Motion granted. The Court will do 13 a report and recommendation indicating to Judge Lamberth that 14 the witness should be held in contempt for his refusal to 15 answer the question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Is it your position, Mr. Huang, that you refuse to 18 answer any questions about this document, any questions of 19 any kind about this document? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think you have to ask those 21 questions one by one, Mr. Klayman. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone on this document, 25 listed on this document, anything about this lawsuit? 157 1 MR. COBB: Invocation, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 3 be sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did you ever discuss with anybody on this document 6 anything involving this court? 7 MR. COBB: Invocation. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 9 be sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you ever discuss anything with regard to 12 Judicial Watch with anyone on this document? 13 A I'd like to invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 15 be sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did you ever discuss anything with regard to Larry 18 Klayman with anyone listed on this document? 19 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 21 be sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Did you recommend -- there's a person very last on 24 this list -- did you recommend Mr. Hoyt Zia for appointment 25 as Chief Counsel, Bureau of Export Administration, Department 158 1 of Commerce? 2 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 4 be sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you recommend Nancy Lynn Patton, Deputy 7 Assistant Secretary, East Asia and the Pacific, to the 8 Department of Commerce appointment for which she received? 9 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 11 will be sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you recommend anyone else on this list for 14 appointment by the Clinton Administration? 15 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 17 will be sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone on this list the 20 removal of documents from the Commerce Department that were 21 subject to production in this lawsuit? 22 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 24 be sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 159 1 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone on this list the 2 destruction of documents that were subject to production in 3 this lawsuit? 4 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 6 sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you ever discuss retaliation against Larry 9 Klayman or Judicial Watch, counsel in this lawsuit with 10 anyone on this list? 11 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege is 13 sustained. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it, Your Honor, that -- I move 15 for contempt on all those questions? 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I do, I sustain the invocation of 17 the privilege with reference to those questions. The only 18 contumacious question was the first question and I don't 19 remember exactly what it was. And that would be the only one 20 that will be subject to my report and recommendation. 21 MR. COBB: Can I ask specifically, Your Honor, that 22 prior to your report and recommendation that you review the 23 specific questions? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What I think I probably will do, 25 counsel, as we get organized, I probably will -- it seems to 160 1 me it probably would make sense for me to ask you to show 2 cause. That would give you a chance to brief it before me. 3 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman can respond; so can 5 Ms. Braswell. That's the way we'll do it. 6 MR. COBB: We welcome that opportunity, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The troubles we're having -- 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter -- 10 I'm sorry. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The troubles we're having, Mr. 12 Cobb, you're going to have to come closer. 13 MS. BRASWELL: Right. Right. 14 MR. COBB: I'd welcome that opportunity, Your 15 Honor. I appreciate it. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 19 mark as Exhibit 23. 20 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 23 21 was marked for identification.) 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Exhibit 23 is an article in "The Los Angeles 24 Times," of January 29th, 1997. The article is entitled, 25 "Records Show Visits to EX IM Bank Director by David 161 1 Willman," W-i-l-l-m-a-n, "and Alan Seymour." 2 I turn your attention to the second page, third 3 paragraph wherein it states, "In 1996, after Huang had left 4 Commerce to become a Democratic National Committee fund 5 raiser, he called Haley eight times. The records do not 6 specify the purpose of most of the calls, but note that 7 Haley, a native Filipino and Huang worked together on a 8 number of Asian-American issues including vetting Asian- 9 American candidates for Administration jobs." 10 Is that statement true that you worked with Ms. 11 Haley on vetting Asian-American issues -- excuse me. On a 12 number of Asian-American issues including vetting Asian- 13 American candidates for Administration jobs? 14 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 16 be sustained. 17 MR. COBB: Your Honor, I also have a scope 18 objection as to that document. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm not going to rule on that now. 20 MR. COBB: No, I understand, but as I understand, I 21 do need to preserve those. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, that's fine, but what I'm 23 trying to do, I think we all have a mutual -- I misspoke. 24 We have a mutual understanding that if and when 25 Judge Lamberth reviews my decision and reverses me in any way 162 1 with reference to the invocation of the privilege and we 2 recommence with the deposition, everyone can assert any 3 objection they wish when the question is raised. 4 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor, and I understand 5 that. But the posture could be that Judge Lamberth makes an 6 order which we take to the D.C. Circuit. The posture could 7 be that Judge Lamberth makes an order which we take to the 8 D.C. Circuit and for that reason I do believe I need to 9 preserve my scope objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. But I'm not certain I'm 11 going to rule on them today. 12 MR. COBB: I understand. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're free to do that, Mr. Cobb. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q I show you what I'll ask the court reporter to mark 16 as Exhibit 24. 17 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 24 18 was marked for identification.) 19 MS. BRASWELL: May I have the copy, please? 20 (The witness examined document.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q This is a memorandum of May 5th, 1994, to Ann 23 Cahill from Martha Phipps concerning White House activities. 24 In the first line it reads, "In order to reach our very 25 aggressive goal of 40 million this year, it would be helpful 163 1 if we could coordinate the following activities between the 2 White House and the Democratic National Committee." 3 It goes down to Number 4: "Invitations to 4 participate in official delegation trips abroad. Contact 5 Alexis Herman." 6 Have you ever seen this document before, Mr. Huang? 7 MR. COBB: Can I confer with my client, Your Honor? 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. Off the record. 9 (Off the record at 2:45 p.m., witness confers with 10 counsel.) 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please. 12 We're back on video record at 2:46. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The question I believe, Mr. Huang, 14 is whether you've ever seen this document. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so, Your Honor. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Does that mean you're not sure, Mr. Huang? The 18 question called for a yes or no. 19 MR. COBB: Objection. It's a state of mind. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: See if you can -- can you be more 21 certain, Mr. Huang? 22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I really could not be 23 very certain of that. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thanks. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 164 1 Q If you have seen this document, do you have a 2 belief as to where you saw it? 3 A I couldn't quite answer that. 4 Q Okay. I can represent to you, Mr. Huang, for 5 purposes of this question, this document was produced out of 6 the files of Harold Ickes. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is there a question? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Does that help refresh your recollection as to 11 where you may have seen it if indeed you did see it? 12 A The reason I -- no. I cannot answer that. I'm 13 sorry. It would not. 14 Q It doesn't -- does it refresh your recollection? 15 Yes or no? 16 A It would not. 17 Q Who is Ann Cahill? Do you know her? 18 A Ann Cahill? 19 Q Yes. 20 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 22 be sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Martha Phipps, who is Martha Phipps? 25 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 165 1 Q Do you know Martha Phipps? 2 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 4 be sustained in both instances. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Do you know Alexis Herman? 7 A I would like to invoke my privilege. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 9 be sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Does this document show that seats on trade 12 missions subject to this case were being sold for political 13 campaign contributions? 14 MR. COBB: Objection as to form. Calls for a legal 15 conclusion and direct -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me, let me ask it differently. 17 MR. COBB: And direct the witness to invoke. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask it differently. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Does this document evidence that seats on the 21 subject trade missions were sold for campaign contributions? 22 MR. COBB: Same objections and direct the witness 23 to invoke. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 25 be sustained. The question also calls for a legal 166 1 conclusion. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you -- I want to go back on 3 one question, Your Honor, and ask Your Honor: There was a 4 series of questions with regard to Exhibit 22 which is the 5 Clinton Administration Asian-Pacific American appointees. 6 What I wanted to get an understanding for the 7 record was is that there was one question where you 8 instructed Mr. Huang to answer. He refused. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right, sir. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: And you moved for contempt. You 11 advised Mr. Huang that you would recommend that he be held in 12 contempt. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right, sir. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: What I wanted to ask was if you had 15 not sustained the other questions on grounds of 5th Amendment 16 privilege, if he had been forced to respond -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The other questions I believe 18 would cause him to incriminate himself. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. And what I wanted to -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I sustained the objections. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: What I wanted to ask him was, was 22 whether he would have still taken the 5th even if you had not 23 sustained his objections as to the 5th. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't know how he can answer 25 that, but you can try. Let's see what happens. 167 1 THE WITNESS: I'm a little confused about your 2 question. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q In other words, I asked you certain questions about 5 Exhibit 22. 6 A Right. 7 Q Which is this list of Clinton Administration Asian- 8 Pacific American appointees. 9 A Right. Uh-huh. 10 Q On one question which the record reflects, the 11 Judge ordered you to respond. Correct? 12 A What was the question, again? Can you repeat that 13 question? 14 MR. COBB: That's true. We'll stipulate to that. 15 THE WITNESS: We'll stipulate, okay. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q And you then reasserted the 5th Amendment on that. 18 A Right. 19 MR. COBB: On the advice of counsel. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And you refused to answer. 22 A That's correct. 23 Q And the Judge then instructed you that he would 24 recommend to the court that you be held in contempt. Do you 25 remember that? 168 1 A Yes, I do. 2 MR. COBB: I -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Now, the other questions that I asked you about 6 this document you also took the 5th Amendment. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q But the Judge said you didn't have to respond. He 9 sustained your objection. Do you remember that? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q Now, if Judge Lamberth had not sustained -- 12 A No. It was the Judge. 13 Q Excuse me. If, if Magistrate Judge Facciola had 14 not sustained your objection, in other words, agreed with 15 you, would you have answered those questions or would you 16 have taken the 5th? 17 MR. COBB: Object and instruct the witness not to 18 answer. 19 THE WITNESS: I invoke my privilege. 20 MR. COBB: Privilege is being invoked. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It will be sustained. 22 MR. COBB: Pardon me, Mr. Klayman, for a moment. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I just wanted that for the record for 24 the court. 25 MR. COBB: No, I understand, but I'm a little 169 1 confused about what the procedure is now, Judge. 2 As I understood, you subsequently modified your 3 position procedurally to indicate that you intended to issue 4 a show cause order that we would have the opportunity to 5 brief. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right. 7 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will issue -- once we get the 9 transcript, what I'll do is reproduce the question and the 10 answer and order you to show cause why he shouldn't be held 11 in contempt. Ms. Braswell and Mr. Klayman will, of course, 12 have a chance to respond. 13 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And on the basis of that, I'll 15 make my report and recommendation to Judge Lamberth. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I'm showing you what I'll ask the court reporter to 18 mark as the next number, 25. 19 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 25 20 was marked for identification.) 21 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a DNC Managing Trustee Events 22 Membership Requirements Menu. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Thank you. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 170 1 Q Which bears the heading, "DNC Managing Trustee 2 Events and Membership Requirements," with the names Donald 3 Fowler, National Chair, Christopher Dodd, General Chair, 4 heading Democratic National Committee. 5 Have you ever seen this document before? 6 (Witness confers with counsel.) 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I don't -- 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You've never seen it before? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q You don't know one way or the other? 12 A Right. Could I -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No one can hear you Mr. Klayman. 14 You're going to have to raise your voice. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Right, I asked Mr. Cobb not to put 16 words into the witness' mouth. It seems like he's giving him 17 -- 18 MR. COBB: I can advise my client as I understand 19 it, Your Honor, within the confines of the 5th in the sense 20 of the proceeding. That's merely what I'm trying to do. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I heard something that didn't 22 deal with the Fifth amendment. I heard you telling him 23 something that was substantive, at least that's what I heard. 24 MR. COBB: Well, for the record what I repeated to 25 him was his previous answer. 171 1 MR. KLAYMAN: But that's inappropriate. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay, let's get back to the 3 question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Okay, but let's get back to the question, please. 6 The question is, do you remembering seeing this document, Mr. 7 Huang? 8 A I certainly don't remember. 9 Q Thanks. You don't know one way or the other, you 10 may have seen it, but you don't remember now? 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q The fourth entry, annual economic trade missions, 13 managing trustees are invited to participate in foreign trade 14 missions, which affords opportunities to join party leaders 15 in meeting with business leaders abroad. 16 Q Show me the fourth name or show me -- 17 MR. COBB: It's the fifth entry. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Fifth, I'm sorry, annual economic trade missions -- 20 managing trustees are invited to participate in foreign trade 21 missions, which affords opportunities to join party leaders 22 in meeting with business leaders abroad. Do you see that? 23 A I do see that. 24 Q Now, what's stated here was based on your knowledge 25 the policy of the Democratic National Committee, correct? 172 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 3 sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q This reference to annual economic trade missions 6 refers to trade missions by the Department of Commerce and 7 the Department of Energy, correct? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 10 sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q This reference refers to selling seats on trade 13 missions for $100, 000 in exchange for participation on the 14 trade missions, correct? 15 A I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 17 sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q I tell you what, I'll ask the Court Reporter to 20 mark Exhibit 26. 21 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 26 22 was marked for identification.) 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Mr. Huang, do you know whether or not based on your 25 own knowledge it's legal or illegal to sell seats on taxpayer 173 1 financed trade missions for political campaign contributions. 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have you ever known whether it was legal or illegal 7 at ant time? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of privilege sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you ever seen the document which was just 12 marked as Exhibit 26? 13 May we confer with our client, Your Honor? 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 15 (Witness confers with counsel.) 16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't believe so. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Don't believe what, that you saw it? 20 A I've seen this thing. 21 Q Do you know whether there are any documents other 22 than the one that I've just shown you which purport to sell 23 seats on trade missions for campaign contributions? Do you 24 know whether any such documents exist? 25 A I invoke my privilege. 174 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 2 sustained. 3 MR. COBB: Your Honor, if I might, just for the 4 record, I think in the last colloquy between Mr. Klayman and 5 Mr. Huang, the question was, you don't recall -- you don't 6 know whether or not you've seen this. And Mr. Huang filled 7 in the absence or the blank in the question by saying, "I've 8 seen this." But, so the record is clear, I believe his 9 testimony is, he doesn't believe he's seen it before. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q I'll stand by what he said, Your Honor, not 12 characterization accounts. 13 I'll show you what I'll ask the Court Reporter to 14 mark the next exhibit. 15 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 27 16 was marked for identification.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever seen this document before Mr. Huang? 19 This is a letter, July 25th, 1994, to Melissa Moss from Terry 20 McAuliffe. 21 (Witness examines the exhibit.) 22 A Mr. Klayman, no, I've never seen it. 23 Q You do know that Terry McAuliffe is a democratic 24 fundraiser, correct? 25 A I invoke my privilege. 175 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 2 sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You do know that Melissa Moss worked at the 5 Commerce Department in the Office of Business Liaison? 6 A I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Communication of the privilege 8 sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q This letter was written seven days after you began 11 your employment with the Commerce Department, correct? 12 A I invoke my privilege. 13 Q There's no basis for that, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We disagree. The general topic of 15 trade missions aboard and do and so forth is obviously a 16 matter for any investigator. Assuming of this document, with 17 reference to his arrival, I very well take your opinion in 18 terms of his knowledge of it, in terms of his -- 19 MR. COBB: He's already testified that he began 20 employment, in terms of his presence at the Commerce 21 Department on July 18th, 1994. so it's not in dispute. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You don't have to get it from. I 23 have sustained it. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q You are aware that Melissa Moss participated in a 176 1 scheme to sell seats on trade missions at the Commerce 2 Department, correct? 3 A I invoke my privilege. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of privilege sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q In fact, you heard conversations that Melissa Moss 7 participated in, or she made reference to selling seats on 8 trade missions, correct? 9 A I invoke my privilege. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of privilege sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q And in fact you saw documents, which evidenced that 13 seats on trade missions were being sold to democratic party 14 and Clinton/Gore donors, did you not? 15 A I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 17 sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q In fact, Secretary Ronald Brown showed you those 20 documents, correct? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q And he discussed those documents with you, correct? 177 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 3 sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Have you ever heard of Ms. Nolanda Hill? 6 A I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 8 sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you know whether or not Ms. Hill was a close 11 confidant and business partner of Ronald Brown? 12 A I invoke my privilege. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 14 sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know a David Preson? Excuse me, do you know 17 a Mr. Belvin, retired president and CEO of Windmere 18 Corporation? 19 A On advice of counsel, I invoke my privilege. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 21 be sustained by memorandum. I don't know the exhibit 22 number -- speaks of the possibility of Belvin going on a 23 trade mission. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Do you know, have you ever known a David Preson 178 1 from Windmere corporation? 2 A I will invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Similar ruling for the same 4 reason. Preson is mentioned in the same memorandum. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did Mr. Preson or Mr. Belvin or Windmere 7 Corporation give money to the Democratic party or the 8 Clinton/Gore campaign to purchase a seat on trade mission to 9 China? 10 A I invoke my privilege. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 12 be sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q I'll show what I'll ask the Court Reporter to 15 mark as the next exhibit. 16 With regard to the trade mission to China in the 17 Fall of 1994, Mr. Huang, do you know whether or not the 18 Chinese Government used that as an opportunity to conduct 19 espionage on the United States? 20 A I invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 22 be sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Do you know whether or not classified documents of 25 the United States were passed to the government of China or 179 1 its agents during that trade mission? 2 A I will invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the Court Reporter to 7 mark as Exhibit 28. 8 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 28 9 was marked for identification.) 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q This is a memorandum. Bob, Harry, Fran, Laura, 12 Richard, Steven, and Jay from Eric, January 13th, 1994, trade 13 mission to Russia. Have you ever seen this document before? 14 A No, Mr. Klayman. 15 Q Do you know of Bob, Harry, or Fran at the 16 Democratic National Committee? 17 A I invoke my privilege. 18 Q Do you know a Laura, Richard, Steven, or Jay at the 19 Democratic National Committee? 20 A I invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Privilege will be sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Do you know an Eric Silvin at the Democratic 24 National Committee? 25 A I will invoke my privilege. 180 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q This document evidences that a list of candidates 3 from the DNC was forwarded to the Commerce Department for the 4 trade mission to Russia, correct? 5 A I will invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 7 sustained as to that question and the prior question, which I 8 did not get a chance to rule on. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And the list of candidates were comprised of donors 11 to the Democratic National Committee, correct? 12 A I invoke my privilege. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 14 sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know Rita Lewis? 17 A I will invoke my privilege. 18 Q I list of donors were provided by the Democratic 19 National Committee with regard to the trade mission to 20 Belgium, were they not? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 23 be sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q In fact, for all of the Department of Trade 181 1 Missions -- for all the Department of Commerce trade 2 missions, names of donors were provided by the Democratic 3 National Committee to the Commerce Department, correct? 4 A I invoke my privilege. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 6 sustained. 7 (Discussion off the record.) 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video record at 3:09. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 3 reporter to mark as Exhibit 29. 4 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 29 5 was marked for identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q This is a memorandum to Melissa Moss from Sally 8 Painter dated August 6, 1993, Office of Business Liaison, 9 Week in Review No. 5. Have you ever seen this document 10 before, Mr. Huang? Take your time and review it. 11 Attached to it is another memorandum of January 24, 12 1994 concerning OBO Weekly Activities from Sally Painter to 13 Melissa Moss. The heading is Office of Business Liaison 14 Biweekly Review No. 13. 15 Tell me whether you've seen either of these two 16 documents before. 17 MR. COBB: Well, may we review them, Your Honor? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. Witness - 5/12/98 182 1 MR. COBB: With our client? Thank you. 2 (A brief recess was taken.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 4 3:21. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: How much longer do you think 6 you're going to be? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: We have quite a good deal more, 8 Your Honor, because the procedure obviously slows everything 9 down. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, will you finish by 5:30? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: We will not, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: When will you finish? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd just give an estimate, I think we 14 probably need another four, five, six hours, somewhere in 15 that range. It depends on the objections that are raised. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, what time frame 17 would you estimate? 18 My own personal schedule is that I have an 19 engagement this evening at 7:00 and I can't stay. I was 20 hoping we could finish tonight at 5:30. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I certainly am free to 22 stay as long as the Court needs today. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Mr. Keeney, Mr. Cobb? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: We're at your disposal, Your Honor. 25 Whatever is convenient. Witness - 5/12/98 183 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let's see what they have to 2 say. 3 Mr. Keeney, Mr. Cobb? 4 MR. COBB: Well, Your Honor, I have -- I'm in some 5 difficulty, Your Honor. I am a resident of Denver, Colorado 6 and unless I'm there before midnight then I'm going to commit 7 my own federal tax violation. 8 I'm on the last flight out, what I'm advised is the 9 last flight out, at 7:17. I have to leave tomorrow for a 10 Justice Department proceeding in Barcelona, Spain and will be 11 out of the country until a week from tomorrow. 12 So my strong preference would be to see what we can 13 accomplish in short order, although I will say it seems to me 14 we have a lot of lawyering and judging to do on this issue. 15 Mr. Klayman has stated an intention to appeal your order of 16 yesterday. You've indicated the Court's preference for 17 briefs on the show cause issue. 18 So what I would frankly recommend or would prefer 19 would be a conclusion at the earliest possible time today and 20 to continue the deposition, not to terminate it. We would 21 make Mr. Huang available subsequent to those rulings to 22 continue whatever else is required to -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Tomorrow? 24 MR. COBB: To finalize it. I won't be available 25 tomorrow, Your Honor. Witness - 5/12/98 184 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So one way we could do this would 2 be we could go -- we could try to go as late as we could 3 tonight, say, 6:30, postpone my obligation and see where we 4 are then. If we finish, so much the better. If we haven't 5 finished, we can decide what we're going to do now. But it 6 seems to me that we certainly have reached the point where it 7 is awfully clear what the nature of my rulings are. 8 Mr. Klayman, do you feel some obligation to go 9 through every question you wanted to ask this witness even 10 though it is quite clear he will claim the privilege and I 11 will sustain it? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What purpose is served by that? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: The purpose is that we can then take 15 up these issues on a question-by-question to Judge Lamberth. 16 He can make a ruling. Each question is different and we need 17 to obviously put that in front of the Court question by 18 question. That is in fact what Your Honor ruled yesterday. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Fine. Proceed. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Showing you Exhibit 29, did you ever see that 23 document before? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q There's two of them there. Have you seen either of Witness - 5/12/98 185 1 the two? 2 A No. Neither. Neither. 3 Q Have you ever seen what has been referred to as the 4 Democratic National Committee Minority Donor List? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 Q Do you know whether or nor Jude Kearney -- do you 7 know who Jude Kearney is? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of privilege sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Jude Kearney participated in selling seats on trade 12 missions to minority donors while he was at the Commerce 13 Department. Is that not true? 14 A I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 16 sustained. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Jude Kearney was visited by Charlie Trie on a 19 number of occasions when he worked at the Commerce 20 Department, correct? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 23 sustained. 24 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'd like to say 25 something here. I am not only not asking objections as to Witness - 5/12/98 186 1 scope but I am also not making objections as to questions 2 that assume facts in evidence. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, I understand, Ms. Braswell. 4 Both of your objections will considered at a later time if my 5 rulings are overturned. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Okay. Because we believe that 7 objection is applicable to many of Mr. Klayman's questions. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 10 Mr. Kearney gave documents to Mr. Trie when he visited the 11 Commerce Department? 12 A I invoke my privilege. 13 Q Did Mr. Trie obtain classified documents from 14 Mr. Kearney? 15 A I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of privilege in 17 both instances will be sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Trie attended the trade mission in China in the 20 fall of 1994, correct? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Do you know an individual by the name of Johnny Witness - 5/12/98 187 1 Chung? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Mr. Johnny Chung also attended that trade mission 7 to China in the fall of '94, correct? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 Q Have you ever heard of a Colonel Liu Chaoyang, 10 L-i-u C-h-o-a-y-a-n-g? 11 A I invoke my privilege. 12 Q Have you ever met him? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 15 sustained. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Or her, rather. I'm sorry, 17 Your Honor. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 19 sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q She is the daughter of General Hua Quing, H-u-a 22 Q-u-i-n-g, correct? 23 A I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 25 sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 188 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Who is the former chief of staff of the People's 3 Liberation Army, correct? 4 A I invoke my privilege. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 6 sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q On that trade mission to China, Department of 9 Commerce documents, classified documents, were provided to 10 those individuals, correct? 11 A I invoke my privilege. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 13 sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q On the Chinese trade mission to which I've referred 16 in the fall of 1994, classified documents were provided to 17 those individuals, correct? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Now, your reported former employer, Lippo Group, 23 owns part of China Resources, does it not? 24 A I invoke my privilege. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is Witness - 5/12/98 189 1 sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q China Resources conducts espionage on behalf of the 4 People's Republic of China, does it not? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 MR. COBB: And I object to the form. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 8 sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Have you ever had contact with a General Ji 11 Chengve, C-h-e-n-g-v-e? 12 A I invoke my privilege. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 14 sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q On the trade mission to China in the fall of 1994, 17 participants had contact with General Ji Chengve, correct? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q And on that trade mission to China, classified 23 documents of the Department of Commerce were provided to 24 General Ji Chengve? 25 A I invoke my privilege. Witness - 5/12/98 190 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 2 sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Have you ever heard of a Xiong Guangkai, X-i-o-n-g 5 G-u-a-n-g-k-a-i, Deputy Chief of Staff of the People's 6 Liberation Army? 7 A I invoke my privilege. 8 Q On the trade mission to China in the fall of 1994, 9 participants on that trade mission had contact with this 10 gentleman, correct? 11 A I invoke my privilege. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 13 sustained in all instances. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q And on that trade mission, classified documents of 16 the Department of Commerce were provided to this gentleman, 17 correct? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know a Ng Lapseng, N-g new word 23 L-a-p-s-e-n-g? 24 A I invoke my privilege. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is Witness - 5/12/98 191 1 sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q On the trade mission to China in the fall of 1994, 4 participants had contact with Mr. Ng Lapseng, correct? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q And on that trade mission, classified documents of 10 the Commerce Department were provided to Ng Lapseng? 11 A I invoke my privilege. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 13 sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you know any of these gentlemen that I've just 16 mentioned, a Colonel Liu Chaoyang, Hua Quing, General Ji 17 Chengve, and a Mr. Xiong Guangkai, and a Mr. Ng Lapseng? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 20 will be sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever provided classified documents of the 23 Department of Commerce to these gentlemen and women? 24 A I invoke my privilege. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is Witness - 5/12/98 192 1 sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Have you ever provided classified documents of the 4 Department of Commerce to anyone employed by, associated with 5 or having anything to do with Lippo Group? 6 A I invoke my privilege. 7 MR. COBB: With all due respect, I would object as 8 well because I think that question was asked in equally broad 9 form this morning. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 11 will be sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Were any documents, classified documents, passed to 14 anyone associated with Lippo Group on the trade mission to 15 China in the fall of 1994? 16 A I invoke my privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 18 will be sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever ask anyone associated with Lippo Group 21 for a bonus based upon your providing them with classified 22 documents of the Commerce Department? 23 A I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 25 sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 193 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q When you left Lippo Group to join the Department of 3 Commerce, did anyone replace you at your position at Lippo 4 Group? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Assuming someone replaced you, what was his or her 10 duties and responsibilities? 11 A I invoke my privilege. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 13 sustained. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 15 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 16 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 30 17 was marked for identification.) 18 MS. BRASWELL: May I have a copy, please? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q This is a document written to John Huang from 21 T.S. Chung, phone number of John Huang (202) 496-4892, 22 produced by the Democratic National Committee to the public. 23 Was that your telephone exchange at the Democratic National 24 Committee? 25 A I invoke my privilege. Witness - 5/12/98 194 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 2 will be sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Is this the handwriting of T.S. Chung? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you familiar with the handwriting of T.S. 10 Chung? 11 A I invoke my privilege. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 13 sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Mr. Chung was the person at the Commerce 16 Department, one of the people at the Commerce Department, 17 that played a role in selecting participants on overseas 18 trade missions, correct? 19 A I invoke my privilege. 20 Q In this document, Mr. Chung is saying that he's 21 sending to you two lists, the first consisting of one page 22 entitled Korea list, it contains ten names of business 23 persons who could be invited to accompany the President to 24 Korea; the second list consisting of four pages, contains 25 names of potential donors entitled Los Angeles list. That's Witness - 5/12/98 195 1 a correct statement, correct? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 Q Mr. Chung did you send you those donor lists, 4 correct? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Who is Mr. Xiong Mun Li? 10 A I invoke my privilege. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 12 sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Can you tell the date of this document from the 15 document itself? 16 A I invoke my privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 18 sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Who is Steven Kim? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Who is Xylan, X-y-l-a-n? Witness - 5/12/98 196 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 3 sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q This document evidences that seats on trade 6 missions of the Commerce Department were provided to donors 7 to the Democratic Party, correct? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 10 sustained. 11 MR. COBB: And I object as to form. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Cobb. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q This document evidences that people other than 15 yourself participated in selling seats on trade missions for 16 campaign contributions, correct? 17 A I invoke my privilege. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 19 sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And this document evidences that Mr. T.S. Chung 22 participated in selling seats on Department of Commerce trade 23 missions for campaign contributions. 24 A I invoke my privilege. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is Witness - 5/12/98 197 1 sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You recommended Mr. T.S. Chung for his job at the 4 Commerce Department, did you not? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q This document is evidence that you were involved in 10 the selection of participants on trade missions in exchange 11 for political campaign contributions, correct? 12 A I invoke my privilege. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 14 sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q It was you who recommended the inclusion of Bernard 17 Schwartz of Loral Corporation on the trip to China in the 18 fall of 1994, correct 19 A I invoke my privilege. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 21 sustained. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q And you made this recommendation because he had 24 donated several hundred thousand dollars to the Democratic 25 Party and Clinton-Gore campaign, correct? Witness - 5/12/98 198 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 3 sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q President Clinton personally approved the inclusion 6 of Bernard Schwartz on that trade mission because he had 7 donated money to the Democratic Party, correct? 8 MR. COBB: And I object to the form of that because 9 it calls for his interpretation of the state of mind of the 10 President. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 12 will be sustained and the objection will be sustained as 13 well. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you have knowledge as to whether or not the 16 president knew that Bernard Schwartz was being taken on that 17 trade mission to China -- 18 MR. COBB: Same objection. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q -- in exchange for his campaign contributions to 21 the Democratic Party? 22 MR. COBB: I apologize for interrupting the 23 question. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The first objection, you invoke 25 the privilege, is that correct? Witness - 5/12/98 199 1 THE WITNESS: I invoke the privilege. Yes. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And your objection, Mr. Cobb, is? 3 MR. COBB: Is the same in terms of calling for 4 state of mind of somebody else. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked him whether he had knowledge. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In any event, the latter objection 7 will be overruled, but the invocation of the privilege will 8 be sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you have knowledge as to whether or not Hillary 11 Clinton personally approved of the inclusion of Bernard 12 Schwartz of Loral Corporation on the trade mission to China 13 in the fall of 1994 in exchange for his campaign 14 contributions to the Democratic Party? 15 A I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 17 will be sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Same questions with regard to Alexis Herman. 20 A I invoke my privilege. 21 Q Same question with regard to Harold Ickes. 22 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 23 Q Same question with regard to Terry McAuliffe. 24 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 25 Q Same question with regard to Marvin Rosen. Witness - 5/12/98 200 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege as 3 to all of those questions or those people is sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 6 Hillary Clinton personally approved the transfer of 7 technology to the Chinese in exchange for campaign 8 contributions during the trade trip to China in 1994? 9 A I invoke my privilege. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 11 sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Same question with regard to the President of the 14 United States, Bill Clinton. 15 A I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 17 sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did Hillary Rodham Clinton recommend you for your 20 position that you acquired at the Commerce Department? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Have you ever discussed the trade mission to China Witness - 5/12/98 201 1 in the fall of 1994 with Bernard Schwartz? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q With anyone from Loral Corporation? 7 A I invoke my privilege. 8 Q With anyone from Lockheed Corporation? 9 A I invoke my privilege. 10 Q With anyone from Hughes Corporation? 11 A Same invocation. 12 Q With anyone from Westinghouse? 13 A Same invocation. 14 Q General Electric? 15 A Same invocation. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of privilege as to 17 those corporations and those questions is sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Same question with regard to any participant on 20 that trade mission to China. 21 A Same. I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 23 sustained. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 25 reporter to mark as Exhibit 31. Witness - 5/12/98 202 1 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 31 2 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q While we ask that question, you consider yourself 5 to be a close friend of President Clinton, correct? 6 A I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 8 sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you consider yourself to be a close friend of 11 Hillary Rodham Clinton? 12 A I invoke my privilege. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 14 sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q The President of the United States, William 17 Jefferson Clinton, personally recommended you for the 18 position of Deputy Finance Chair of the Democratic National 19 Committee, correct? 20 A I invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 22 sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q I'm showing you what has been marked as Exhibit 31. 25 I turn your attention -- Exhibit 31 consists of Witness - 5/12/98 203 1 Bates numbers 1634, 4066, 1649, 1692, 1690, 1650, 1651, 4182, 2 4183, 4185, 4184, 4186, and 4187, correct? 3 MR. COBB: The question is is that what the exhibit 4 consists of? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 6 MR. COBB: You can answer that. 7 THE WITNESS: Just going through it -- excuse me. 8 Yes, Mr. Klayman. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q I turn your attention to a letter on the letterhead 11 of the Embassy of the People's Republic of China dated 12 October 1, 1996. Do you see that? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q And following that -- that is Bates number 4066. 15 A Down below, yes. 16 Q Yes. 17 A Yes. 18 Q The next page, Bates number 1649, shows an address 19 of the Foreign Affairs Office of Wuay Yin, W-u-a-y Y-i-n, 20 Municipal People's Government, Jiangsu, J-i-a-n-g-s-u, 21 People's Republic of China, 223001. That's correct, is it 22 not? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And the next Bates number is number 1692, shows a 25 photocopy of an envelope addressed to you, Mr. John Huang, Witness - 5/12/98 204 1 U.S. Department of Commerce, 14th and Constitution, N.W., 2 Room 3868A, Washington, D.C. 20230. Correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Room 3868A, that was your room that you worked out 5 of at the Commerce Department, Correct? 6 A I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 8 sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q These documents I just read to you evidence that at 11 the time you left the Commerce Department to go to the 12 Democratic National Committee that you took documents from 13 the Commerce Department to the Democratic National Committee, 14 correct? 15 MR. COBB: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I invoke my privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 18 sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q In fact, you took these documents that I've just 21 referenced to the Democratic National Committee. 22 A I invoke my privilege. 23 Q And, in fact, you therefore did not testify 24 truthfully when you first were deposed in this case on 25 October 29, 1996 that you did not take documents from the Witness - 5/12/98 205 1 Commerce Department when you left. 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 4 sustained. 5 MR. COBB: I would respectfully ask the Court to 6 examine that line of questioning and consider it in 7 connection with our prior argument in connection with the 8 question that you directed Mr. Huang to answer. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. I will. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q The next document, which is Bates number 1690, 12 purports to be a photocopy of a letter sent from China 13 Resources Holding Company, Ltd. in Hong Kong to Mr. and 14 Mrs. John Huang, Vice Assistant Secretary, the Department of 15 Commerce, 15th and Constitution Avenue, N.W., Washington, 16 D.C. 20230, USA. This was a document which you received, 17 it's dated December 21, 1995, at the Commerce Department, 18 correct? 19 A I invoke my privilege. 20 Q And, in fact, you also took this document when you 21 left the employ of the Commerce Department, correct? 22 A I invoke my privilege. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 24 sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: Witness - 5/12/98 206 1 Q Enclosed in that letter is the document which is 2 listed as Bates number 1650, which follows it, correct? 3 MR. COBB: Two objections. One, assumes facts not 4 in evidence; and, second, direct him to invoke the privilege. 5 THE WITNESS: I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q The second document is a photocopy of a card, 10 Foreign Affairs Office, Huaiyan, H-u-a-i-y-a-n, Municipal 11 People's Government. It's from a Zhu You Dong, Z-h-u Y-o-u 12 D-o-n-g, Deputy Director. Who is Zhu You Dong? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 15 sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did you provide classified documents from the 18 Commerce Department to Zhu You Dong with regard to the trade 19 mission to China? 20 MR. COBB: Asked and previously sustained. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 22 sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Turning to Bates number 4185, Central Institute of 25 Finance and Banking is the addressor, 39 South College Road, Witness - 5/12/98 207 1 Haidlan, H-a-i-d-l-a-n, Beijing, China, 100081 -- 2 MR. COBB: Waive the reading. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q All right. It's addressed to John Huang at the 5 Commerce Department, December 21, 1995. You received that 6 document when you were working at the Commerce Department, 7 did you not? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 10 sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q That document was taken with you when you left the 13 employ of the Commerce Department. 14 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 16 sustained. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Turning to the next document, Bates number 4186 and 19 4187, this is also a document sent to you, an envelope with 20 an enclosure, from the People's Republic of China from a 21 Zong -- can't read it. Can you read that name, Mr. Huang? 22 A I invoke my privilege. 23 Q Is this a document that was sent to you at the 24 Commerce Department from the People's Republic of China? 25 A I invoke my privilege. Witness - 5/12/98 208 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 2 sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q And you took that document when you left the 5 Commerce Department, correct? 6 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 7 Q Have you ever passed any classified information 8 with regard to the trade mission to China subject to this 9 case -- 10 MR. COBB: Asked, invoked and previously sustained. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 12 sustained. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Slightly narrower. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 15 sustained, nonetheless. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: To the People's Liberation Army? 17 MR. COBB: Same response. 18 THE WITNESS: I invoke my privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q During the time that you were at the Commerce 21 Department, did you participate in transferring $300,000 to 22 Johnny Chung by General Ji Chengve? 23 A I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 25 sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 209 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever participated in passing any money 3 from the People's Republic of China to the Democratic 4 National Committee or the Clinton-Gore campaign? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q And its government? 10 A I'm sorry, the question? 11 Q Have you ever participated in transferring any 12 money from the Chinese government to the Democratic National 13 Committee or Clinton-Gore campaign associated with the period 14 of time you were at the Commerce Department? 15 A I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 17 sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you ever use the phones of the Commerce 20 Department to communicate with Chinese intelligence agents? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Did you ever send letters or faxes from the Witness - 5/12/98 210 1 Commerce Department communicating with Chinese intelligence? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you ever use the offices of Stevens, Inc. 7 across the street to communicate with Chinese intelligence? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 10 sustained. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what I'll ask the 12 court reporter to mark -- 13 Before I ask questions about this, what's the next 14 exhibit number? 15 THE COURT REPORTER: This is 32. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Thirty-two. 17 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 32 18 was marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Mr. Huang, have you ever received assurances by 21 anyone on behalf of the U.S. Department of Justice that you 22 would never be prosecuted for anything you've done? 23 A I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege is 25 sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 211 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever received assurances from the office 3 of Janet Reno that you would never be prosecuted for anything 4 you've done? 5 MR. COBB: I think that's the same question, 6 Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think it is. In any event, the 8 invocation of the privilege will be sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Has anyone ever told you that you are protected 11 from prosecution? 12 A I invoke my privilege. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 14 will be sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Has anyone ever told you by or on behalf of the 17 U.S. Government that you are protected from civil cases? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation of the privilege 20 will be sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Since October of 1996, have you ever had a 23 conversation with anyone from the Justice Department? 24 A I'm sorry, can you repeat it? 25 Q Since October 1, 1996, have you ever had a Witness - 5/12/98 212 1 conversation with anyone from the Justice Department? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: This is an appropriate time for me 4 to speak to counsel. 5 (Whereupon, at 3:0 p.m., a discussion was held off 6 the record.) 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll overrule the assertion of 8 privilege. 9 This returns to the question I said we would review 10 after lunch. On just the narrow question of whether he's had 11 any contact with prosecutorial agencies, I will direct him to 12 answer and so I understand that we'll go through the same 13 exercise. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I would raise an 15 objection as to the scope of discovery. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Ms. Braswell. I'll 17 overrule that objection. 18 MR. COBB: And we also have a scope objection in 19 addition -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll overrule that objection. 21 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question? 22 I'm sorry. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to go through the whole 24 line of questions again, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. Witness - 5/12/98 213 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Since October 1, 1996, have you had any contact, 3 oral or written, with anyone by or on behalf of the U.S. 4 Department of Justice? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The privilege was asserted and I 6 have overruled it. You are directed to answer, sir. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Klayman. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Who have you had contact with? 10 A I assert my privilege. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Now, counsel, I don't 12 think we have to go outside. Just the necessary inference 13 that he would draw, if he answered this question how would it 14 tend to incriminate him at this point, if he were to take the 15 next step and ask who he had contact with? 16 MR. COBB: I think we're already, you know, 17 starting down a slippery slope. I think that, you know, it 18 raises, you know, issues of the individuals' 19 responsibilities, their area of authority, people would be 20 easily identifiable. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And so therefore by virtue of the 22 world knowing or his saying that he had contact with the XYZ 23 agency or the ABC agency, that would tend to provide a link 24 in the chain of his incrimination because it would show that 25 there was some reason for that agency to have some interest Witness - 5/12/98 214 1 in him. 2 MR. COBB: I think that's one of many 3 considerations. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And what would be the other 5 considerations? 6 MR. COBB: I think there are -- and perhaps we 7 should -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, I think we can -- just talk 9 about it abstractly. 10 MR. COBB: I do believe that abstractly that if the 11 Fifth Amendment protects anything it protects discussions 12 with prosecutors and contact with prosecutors. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And, Ms. Braswell, what do you 14 think? Assuming the scope -- for the sake of the argument, I 15 just did overrule the scope, what do you think about that? 16 In terms of a Fifth Amendment context? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, as the Court notes in 18 our brief, I'm here representing the Department of Commerce, 19 and the Department of Commerce has not taken a position on 20 the invocation of the Fifth Amendment privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: May I interject here, Your Honor? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: That does not indicate incrimination 25 because there are many instances in which people have Witness - 5/12/98 215 1 discussions or contact with government agencies. That's the 2 nature of the way our country functions. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm going to again overrule the 4 objection and ask you who you had contact with. Now, you 5 have to decide with your counsel whether you will answer it 6 or not. 7 MR. KEENEY: Your Honor, can we have the procedure 8 outside? We want to tell the Court under seal. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. Okay. 10 (Whereupon, at 3:57 p.m., an ex parte discussion 11 was held off the record.) 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on record at 3:58. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. I've had a 14 conversation with counsel and I want to revisit this issue. 15 The question of whether or not the witness has 16 had contact with law enforcement agencies who are 17 investigating a certain matter I think raises Fifth Amendment 18 considerations, but I also believe that for present purposes, 19 I have indicated when we began this morning that I have 20 independently verified that the witness does not have any 21 form of transactional immunity. Therefore, that exhausts the 22 necessity of this line of inquiry. 23 On the other hand, the witness' answer to certain 24 of these questions merely by indicating what divisions or 25 department of prosecutorial authority that he has spoken to Witness - 5/12/98 216 1 might, number one, break pledges of confidentiality that he 2 has given those agencies or, two, might disclose matters 3 currently before the grand jury. So for those reasons, in my 4 discretion, I will stop the inquiry right now. 5 You may proceed, Mr. Klayman. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask this question, Your Honor, 7 just to clarify? To Mr. Huang? 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Was the contact that you had with the Department of 10 Justice concerning allegations that you had violated the law 11 or was it over some other matter unrelated to this lawsuit? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll sustain that for the reasons 13 I just gave and also I think that gets closer to a legitimate 14 Fifth Amendment objection. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason I say that is if he was 16 contacted by the Department of Justice because he didn't file 17 a census form or something like that -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't think that would be the 19 reason. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, but we don't know. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm not going to permit you to 22 inquire further than you have. The objection to that 23 question will be sustained. Please go forward on some other 24 topic. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: May I ask this question, Your Honor? Witness - 5/12/98 217 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you provide -- since October 1, 1996, have you 3 provided any documents to the Department of Justice, the 4 Inspector General of the Commerce Department, the Independent 5 Counsel, the Senate Government Affairs Committee, the House 6 Government Reform and Oversight Committee or any other 7 government agency? 8 A I assert my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The privilege will be sustained in 10 that instance on the grounds of incrimination, an answer to 11 that might tend to show that his production of documents to 12 other forum bears on whether he produced all the documents 13 that he was supposed to here. It seems to directly bear on 14 that. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q From October 1, 1996, did you meet with law 17 enforcement officials of have any discussions or any contact, 18 oral or written, with law enforcement officials of countries 19 other than the United States? 20 A I assert my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will sustain the invocation of 22 the privilege. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Since October 1, 1996, have you traveled overseas 25 at all? Witness - 5/12/98 218 1 A I assert my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will sustain the invocation of 3 the privilege. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I ask how that would 5 incriminate him? 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Because the subject of your 7 questions here have to do, for example, the subject of Judge 8 Lamberth's order has to do with transfer of intelligence 9 information to the Chinese government, the sale of trade 10 missions and so travel, for example, to China might be used 11 to incriminate Mr. Huang because it could provide a link in 12 the chain that he had a reason to travel to China to do some 13 of the criminal activities which you have questioned him 14 about and perhaps other agencies questioned him about. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I will ask that an exhibit labelled 16 United States Government Appointment Book 1994 be marked as 17 Exhibit 32. 18 MR. COBB: It's been marked. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. That a similar book, 20 United States Government Appointment Book 1995 be marked as 21 Exhibit 33. 22 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 33 23 was marked for identification.) 24 MR. KLAYMAN: That another document labelled John 25 Huang DOC Telephone Data -- Domestic/Long Distance Domestic Witness - 5/12/98 219 1 Calling Card Employment Period Search July 18, 1994 Through 2 and Including January 17, 1996 be marked as Exhibit 34. 3 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 34 4 was marked for identification.) 5 MR. KLAYMAN: That a document headed or labelled 6 Huang Chronology be marked as Exhibit 35. 7 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 35 8 was marked for identification.) 9 MR. KLAYMAN: And last but not least, that document 10 bearing a number Bates numbers, notes dated February 18, 1999 11 consisting of seven pages be marked as Exhibit 36. 12 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 36 13 was marked for identification.) 14 MR. KLAYMAN: And that a document labelled 15 Classified Briefings/Meetings, same day meetings within week, 16 consisting of six pages, be marked Exhibit 37. 17 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 37 18 was marked for identification.) 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Klayman. 20 Do you want to take a break? 21 All right. The reporter needs a break. All right. 22 Ten after four, please. 23 (Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m., a brief recess was 24 taken.)emily's part Witness - 5/12/98 220 1 MR. KLAYMAN: And we ask to be marked Exhibit 38, a 2 calendar of John Huang for 1995, with the headings 3 "Appointment, Place, Date, and Time," which consists of one, 4 two, three, four -- nine pages. 5 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 38 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. Huang, referring you to Exhibit 32, this is 9 your calendar book of 1994, but before I got to that -- 10 A Did you say 33? 11 Q 32. 12 A Okay, 13 Q -- I want to suggest how you may proceed, but you 14 may want to spread that out, all that stuff. 15 A Okay. Yes. Go ahead. 16 Q Before I ask you that question, do you know an 17 individual by the name of Huang Joong? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever had any meetings with Huang Joong in 23 the presence of Ron Brown? 24 A I invoke my privilege. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation will be sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 221 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did Huang Joong play any role in the trade mission 3 to China in the fall of 1994? 4 A I invoke my privilege. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The invocation will be sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q During any meeting that you've had between Huang 8 Joong and Ron Brown was Donald Forest, head of the China 9 Desk, also present? 10 A I invoke my privilege. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 12 sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q During that meeting, did Ron Brown discuss with 15 Huang Joong a lowering of the barriers to transferring high 16 technology to the Chinese from the United States? 17 A I invoke my privilege. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 19 sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q During that meeting between Huang Joong, Ron Brown, 22 and Donald Forest, was it discussed, providing classified 23 information on U.S. high technology from the Commerce 24 Department to China? 25 A I invoke my privilege. Witness - 5/12/98 222 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 2 sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q During that meeting, was the transfer of high 5 technology concerning satellite encryptions discussed? 6 A I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 8 sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And during that meeting, was it discussed that the 11 barriers to exporting satellite encryption technology be 12 removed so China could acquire that technology? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 15 sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q All of these issues that I've just talked about 18 involving Huang Joong were the subject of discussions by 19 Commerce Department employees, Asians, including Ron Brown, 20 during the trade mission to China in the fall of 1994? 21 MR. COBB: I have a multitude of objections, 22 starting with the fact that Ron Brown was not Asian, and it 23 assumes facts not in evidence. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Did I ever say he was Asian? 25 MR. COBB: Yeah, you did. Witness - 5/12/98 223 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll rephrase. 2 MR. COBB: And I direct the deponent to invoke. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 4 sustained. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Actually, we don't know. He may have 6 been Asian. Who knows? 7 THE WITNESS: I invoke. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: But I apologize if I said that. Let 9 me just rephrase the question. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Were issues involving the transfer of high 12 technology concerning satellite encryptions as discussed 13 between Ron Brown, Huang Joong, and Donald Forest a subject 14 of discussions during the trade mission to China in the fall 15 of '94? 16 A I invoke my privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 18 sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q On that trade mission to China in the fall of '94, 21 several companies attended that were in the satellite 22 business, correct? 23 A I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 25 sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 224 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did Huang Joong ever engage in fund-raising by or 3 on behalf of the Clinton Administration or the Democratic 4 National Committee? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Is Huang Joong a Chinese intelligence agent? 10 A I invoke my privilege. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 12 sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you ever see Huang Joong at the White House? 15 A I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 17 sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Turning to Exhibit 32, which is your -- let me just 20 ask you this question. What is Exhibit 32, Mr. Huang? Take 21 an opportunity to review it. 22 A I invoke my privilege. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 24 sustained. 25 BY MR. KLAYMAN: Witness - 5/12/98 225 1 Q Is Exhibit 32 your calendar diary book at the 2 Department of Commerce? 3 A I invoke my privilege. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 5 sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Was this book kept by you personally? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 10 sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was it kept by others? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 15 sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you intend to answer any questions with regard 18 to this calendar book? 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Without invoking your privilege. 20 MR. COBB: If I might, on his behalf, obviously 21 we're obligated to consider that on a question by question 22 basis. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand. 24 MR. COBB: I will acknowledge that I can't conceive 25 of any questions that he would be permitted to answer. Witness - 5/12/98 226 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And since he will not admit that 2 it's his diary, it doesn't seem like those questions have any 3 foundation. I think we could profitably move on. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to ask questions based on this 5 that would at least perhaps refresh his recollection as to 6 what occurred on those dates. 7 MR. COBB: But he wouldn't be allowed to testify. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're doing so with a document 9 that he refuses to authenticate as his. So how can you 10 possibly refresh his recollection? 11 MR. COBB: And I will go further, and proffer that, 12 you know, we have no objection, and would not cite to the 13 inability to parse this document as precluding you from, you 14 know, any rights that you may have in connection with the 15 record before Judge Lamberth. It will not be our position 16 that your technical inability to ask any of these questions 17 in any way prejudiced you. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand what that means, 19 but I do want to ask questions for the record, Your Honor, 20 put them on the record. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. But you're going to 22 have great difficulty doing so, since the witness refuses to 23 acknowledge that the document is his diary. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand, but I can look at 25 the calendar book and ask him whether an event occurred on Witness - 5/12/98 227 1 that day, which serves our purposes, at least for now, given 2 the position he's taken. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q I turn your attention to Exhibit 32, flipping to 5 the page for the week ending February 27th. 6 A (Examining) 7 Q Do you see that? 8 A Can you refer down below the code, the numbers? 9 Q Yes. 94022. 10 A Okay. Yes, I do. 11 Q Now, do you see the entry under Thursday, February 12 24th, that's crossed out? 13 A It was crossed out, yes. I see it crossed out. 14 Q Can you tell me what that says? 15 A I invoke my privilege. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 17 sustained. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Second column, Friday, February 25th, entry at 20 11:00 a.m. Can you tell me what that says? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Was this entry with regard to you? Witness - 5/12/98 228 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 3 sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Turning to the next page, 94023, wherein it states 6 at the top, crossed out, it appears to be "computer 7 training." Can you tell what that says? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 10 sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you receive computer training at the Department 13 of Commerce? 14 A I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 16 sustained. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Before you ever actually physically were present at 19 the Department of Commerce, did anyone keep a calendar book 20 of your activities? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Turning to the next page, 94024, can you tell me Witness - 5/12/98 229 1 what was crossed out? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q The entry on March 4th at 7:00 a.m., "Greenblatt, 7 RB one half day," do you know a Mr. Greenblatt? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 10 sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Does the "RB" refer to Ron Brown? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 15 sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Is this handwriting yours? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know whose handwriting this is? 23 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 25 sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 230 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Turn to the next page, 94025. First column, 3 Monday, March 7th, "JGAC." Do you know what that refers to? 4 A I invoke my privilege. 5 MR. COBB: Your Honor, may I respectfully, and I 6 recognize this is not an easy proceeding for anybody, but I 7 respectfully just don't see what purpose this serves. 8 He cannot answer questions. The document speaks 9 for itself. The document has been admitted as an exhibit. 10 You know, I think we can assume for the purposes of this 11 proceeding that he's not going to answer any questions about 12 any notations in there and I see no purpose. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, granted, Your Honor, we are at 14 areas of this diary which right now may or may not be less 15 substantive than what we're getting to. I will try to go as 16 quickly as I can over this, so I can get -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, the problem you're having, 18 as I explained to you, Mr. Klayman, is the witness will not 19 be compelled to admit that this is his diary. 20 Therefore, asking him questions about the -- and he 21 will not admit, and I will not compel him to admit, that it's 22 his handwriting or whether the entries in this document, for 23 example, reflect that he knows a certain person, because by 24 doing so, he would be providing evidence that would be a link 25 in the chain, i.e., that this diary is, in fact his. Witness - 5/12/98 231 1 Accordingly, I'm a little mystified as to what we 2 are accomplishing by going over each entry, if he will not 3 admit that this is his diary. It could be Ms. Braswell's 4 diary, for all we know, and for all the evidential 5 significance it has. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That would be an interesting 7 possibility, Your Honor. We'd like to explore that further. 8 MS. BRASWELL: I'm sure you would. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sure you would. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: But -- 11 MR. COBB: But in fairness, Mr. Klayman, I would 12 state for the record again that we have no -- I think you've 13 adequately made your record, to the extend you intend to take 14 this up, that you want to pursue this, and we can envision no 15 technical objections based on your failure to go through each 16 entry. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me see what we can do here, 18 Your Honor, because these diaries were a fundamental purpose 19 as to why we are now taking the deposition. We did not have 20 these diaries at the time of the first Huang deposition. The 21 Court has made specific reference in its various orders 22 concerning Mr. Huang. 23 And to just simply give up at this point without 24 trying different means to try to elicit relevant questions 25 that Judge Lamberth and Your Honor can rule upon, I think Witness - 5/12/98 232 1 would defeat the purpose, in large part, of taking the 2 deposition. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, go ahead. Ask a few 4 questions. He's got to change the tape. 5 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 6 4:24. 7 (Interruption to the proceedings from 4:24 to 4:26 8 p.m.) 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 4:26. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I understand the 11 difficulties that we're encountering here. Some of the 12 things that are listed in these diaries may very well deal 13 with matters that don't incriminate him, that deal with the 14 conduct of other persons. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're missing the point, Mr. 16 Klayman. The point is, there is this piece of paper, okay. 17 If this witness admits that this piece of paper is his diary, 18 he provides a prosecutorial official with an admission that 19 this is his diary. 20 If there are entries in here that relate to any 21 criminal conduct whatsoever, he has provided the Government 22 with a link in the chain of his incrimination. 23 Therefore, he has a Fifth Amendment privilege to 24 ever admitting the document is his diary. With that said, 25 the point that we're all trying to make is, inquiry of him Witness - 5/12/98 233 1 with reference to the entries is academic. It goes nowhere, 2 because he will not admit that this is his diary. Hence, it 3 could be Ms. Braswell's diary, for all the evidentiary 4 significance it has. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, what I'm saying is I understand 6 Your Honor's objection, or ruling. We respect your ruling, 7 subject to possible appeal. 8 But we can certainly use the diary to pinpoint when 9 events may have occurred, and ask him about the events, 10 independent of the diary. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. We'll try it. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 13 MR. COBB: With the understanding he's not going to 14 respond to a single one of those questions. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let him try, and then we'll 16 see. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: With that instruction, Your Honor, 18 can I ask for a contempt ruling? There's no basis to make 19 that instruction to the client. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, I'm not going to hold Mr. Cobb 21 in contempt. Ask your question. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q You received a security clearance to work at the 24 Commerce Department before you even actually were physically 25 present at the Commerce Department, correct, Mr. Huang? Witness - 5/12/98 234 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 Q And, in fact, you received that security clearance 3 in January of 1994, correct? 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 5 be sustained -- 6 THE WITNESS: Again, I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- in both instances. 8 THE WITNESS: I invoke my privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And you took actions by or on behalf of the 11 Commerce Department and the United States concerning 12 activities of the Commerce Department before you actually 13 were physically present at the Commerce Department, correct? 14 A I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 16 sustained. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you visit the Commerce Department between 19 January and July of 1994? 20 A I invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 22 sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Did you meet with people at the Commerce Department 25 in that period? Witness - 5/12/98 235 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you participate in planning trade missions 4 during that period that are the subject of this case, most 5 notably the trade mission to China in the fall of '94? 6 A I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: invocation of the privilege 8 sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q During that period, did you participate in 11 discussions about how Lippo Group would benefit from the 12 trade mission to China in the fall of 1994? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 15 sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q During that period, between January and July of 18 1994, did you receive briefings from security officials at 19 the Commerce Department? 20 A I invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 22 sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Did you receive briefings from agents of the 25 Central Intelligence Agency during that period? Witness - 5/12/98 236 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 3 sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q When you received any such briefings, during your 6 entire stay at the Commerce Department, did you specifically 7 request certain types of classified material? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 10 sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The office which you occupied at the Commerce 13 Department, did it contain a safe? 14 A I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 16 sustained. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q On or after October 1, 1996, was that safe removed 19 to the White House? 20 A I invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 22 sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Assuming that safe was removed to the White House, 25 did it contain classified information at the time? Witness - 5/12/98 237 1 A I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 3 sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q During that period of time between January and July 6 1994, did you have any contact with a person named Webster 7 Hubbell? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 10 sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did your understanding participate in obtaining 13 monies for Mr. Hubbell from the Riotti's during that period? 14 A I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 16 sustained. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason I asked that, Your Honor, 18 it's been reported that Mr. Huang received immunity with 19 regard to testimony provided to independent counsel Kenneth 20 Star concerning those monies. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 22 sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Did you arrange for those monies to be provided to 25 Mr. Hubbell during the period of time between January and Witness - 5/12/98 238 1 July of 1994 when you had received your Commerce Department 2 top secret security clearance? 3 MR. COBB: Objection as to form, as well as -- 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q After you received your Department of Commerce 6 security clearance? 7 A I invoke my privilege. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege will 9 be sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did Mr. Hubbell play any role at all in the trade 12 mission to China in the fall of 1994? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 15 sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did someone by the name of Mark Middleton? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Joseph Jerar? 23 A I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 25 sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 239 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q James or Machtar Riotti? 3 A I invoke my privilege. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 5 sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Steven James? 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 9 sustained. 10 THE WITNESS: I invoke my privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Steven Zinc? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 15 sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Mark Gromeyer? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know who those people are? 23 A I invoke my privilege. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 25 sustained. Witness - 5/12/98 240 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Mickey Cantor? 3 A I invoke my privilege. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 5 sustained. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q During the period of time between January and July 8 1994, did you discuss with Mickey Cantor the trade mission to 9 China in the fall of 1994? 10 A I invoke my privilege. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 12 sustained. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Are you aware of the law firm that Mickey Cantor 15 was working for before he became U.S. Trade Representative? 16 A I invoke my privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 18 sustained. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q That law firm is called Manet, Phelps, is it not? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q And that law firm represented and represents Lippo Witness - 5/12/98 241 1 Group, does it not? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q And it represents Lippo Bank, does it not? 7 A I invoke my privilege. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 9 sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did Mickey Cantor play a role in having U.S. 12 taxpayer money expended on the trade mission to China in 1994 13 to further the business of the Lippo Group? 14 A I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 16 sustained. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Is there any documentation reflecting any contacts 19 with Mickey Cantor concerning the trade mission to China in 20 the fall of 1994? 21 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to Witness - 5/12/98 242 1 mark as Exhibit No. 39 2 (Huang Deposition Exhibit No. 39 3 was marked for identification.) 4 MR. COBB: Are there any wallet-size? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are you pictured in this photograph, Mr. Huang? 7 A On the advice of counsel, I assert my Fifth -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invoke the -- invocation of 9 privilege sustained. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you recognize James Riady in this photograph? 12 A I invoke my Fifth Amendment privileges. 13 Q Do you -- 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of privilege sustained. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you recognize the late Ronald Brown in this 17 photograph? 18 A I invoke my privilege. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 20 sustained. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you have any knowledge of -- knowledge of the 23 circumstances concerning the death of Ron Brown? 24 A I invoke my privilege. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege Witness - 5/12/98 243 1 sustained. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Do you know whether documents were shredded in his 4 office or not after he died? 5 A I invoke my privilege. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 7 sustained. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Do you know whether Chinese intelligence was 10 responsible in whole or in part for the death of Ron Brown? 11 A I invoke my privilege. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 13 sustained. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q And when I say Chinese intelligence, I mean agents 16 of the Chinese Government. 17 A I invoke my privilege. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 19 sustained. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Do you know whether or not Ron Brown met with 22 President Clinton and told him that he intended to cooperate 23 with an independent counsel and reveal that seats on trade 24 missions were being sold for campaign contributions? 25 A I invoke my privilege. Witness - 5/12/98 244 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 2 sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Ron 5 Brown met with President Clinton and told him that he had 6 knowledge that classified information was passed by you and 7 others at the Commerce Department to agents of the Government 8 of China? 9 A I invoke my privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And do you know whether Ron Brown told President 12 Clinton that he was going to cooperate with the independent 13 counsel and tell him that? 14 A I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 16 sustained -- in both instances. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware that Ron Brown was an individual that 19 Judicial Watch sought to depose and get testimony from in 20 this lawsuit? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Ron Witness - 5/12/98 245 1 Brown was shot in the head? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Do you know whether he was shot in the head by 7 Chinese agents? 8 A I invoke my privilege. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 10 sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q I turn your attention to page number 94063. 13 A Are we still on Exhibit No. 32? Exhibit No. 32? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Page -- I'm sorry. What page are we on? 16 Q 94063 of your calendar. 17 A Okay, yes. 18 Q Mr. Huang, have you ever been threatened? 19 MR. COBB: I object to the -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm not finished. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let him finish the question. 22 MR. COBB: No, but I object to his reference to it 23 as his calendar because that assumes facts not in evidence. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. There is testimony that it's Witness - 5/12/98 246 1 his calendar, Your Honor. It's part of the record. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay, but he won't admit that so 3 let's move on. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Right, okay. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q In the context of the issue involving your 7 activities at the Commerce Department and at the Democratic 8 National Committee, have you ever been threatened not to 9 provide testimony? 10 MR. COBB: I'm -- I'm sorry, I don't -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Has anyone threatened him to force 12 him not to provide testimony? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: I invoke my privilege. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 16 sustained. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you fear that if you provide testimony that you 19 will be killed by agents of China? 20 A I invoke my privilege. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 22 sustained. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Or by anyone else? 25 A Again, I invoke my privilege. Witness - 5/12/98 247 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 2 sustained. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Or that you or anyone in your family will be 5 harmed? 6 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 8 sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Have you ever been offered a pardon by President 11 Clinton or anyone on his behalf to keep you from providing 12 testimony? 13 A I invoke my privilege. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 15 sustained. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Let me ask that a slightly different way. Have you 18 ever been offered a presidential pardon in exchange for your 19 being quiet about what you know concerning the campaign 20 finance and Chinagate controversies? 21 A I invoke my privilege. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 23 sustained. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q You know what I'm referring to with regard to the Witness - 5/12/98 248 1 campaign finance and Chinagate activities, do you not? 2 A I invoke my privilege. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 4 sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have you ever been threatened with regard to 7 providing testimony that seats on Commerce Department trade 8 missions were sold in exchange for campaign contributions. 9 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 11 sustained. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you ever been threatened in the context of 14 allegations that you passed classified information to the 15 Chinese? 16 A I invoke my privilege. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In -- 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Lippo Group? 20 A Again -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 22 sustained. 23 A Invocation of my privilege. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Lippo Group? Witness - 5/12/98 249 1 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 3 sustained. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Or anyone else? 6 A Again, I invoke my privilege. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Invocation of the privilege 8 sustained. 9 MR. COBB: Your Honor, at this time -- and I would 10 respectfully request the Court's permission that I be 11 permitted to depart. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly, Mr. Cobb. 13 MR. COBB: And in connection with that -- and in 14 connection with that, frankly, Your Honor, I would move to 15 continue the deposition. I regret -- I've tried to 16 accommodate the Court by expeditious briefing. I've put 17 off -- postponements -- and I have a medical session with one 18 of my children in the morning before I have to leave for 19 Barcelona, which is why I have to return to Denver. 20 For all those reasons and because -- frankly, I am 21 the best versed person in Mr. Huang's Fifth Amendment rights, 22 I would respectfully request to continue the deposition and 23 pledge to the Court our complete cooperation in making him 24 available to the extent that it is continued subsequently 25 pursuant to whatever -- Witness - 5/12/98 250 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's talk a little bit about 2 tomorrow's schedule again, in terms of where we are. You 3 wanted some time with Judge Lambert in the morning. Have you 4 heard from him one way or the other? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if the matter is continued and 6 if 7 Mister -- 8 MR. COBB: Cobb. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Cobb. It's getting late. It's been 10 a long week. 11 MR. COBB: Mm-hmm. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: If he's representing that this matter 13 is postponed and then he's not going to move to terminate the 14 deposition or anything like that, that he's going to bring 15 Mr. Huang back to continue without any further briefing or 16 argument or anything like that, then we're prepared to 17 consider his request, as a matter of professional courtesy. 18 MR. COBB: I do pledge that I do not intend to move 19 to terminate. You know, I guess, I don't have wholesale 20 ability to control whether there's any briefing because 21 obviously if you take an appeal -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Cobb, could you raise your 23 voice? 24 MR. COBB: I'm sorry. I don't have the wholesale 25 ability to agree that there may not be any briefing because Witness - 5/12/98 251 1 I'll be obligated to file in the event that procedurally you 2 file. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand. 4 MR. COBB: But I do agree that we will not move to 5 terminate, and that we would voluntarily make Mr. Huang 6 available again as the Court has insisted, you know -- 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could we do that tomorrow? You're 8 going to Barcelona? 9 MR. COBB: I'm going to be in Barcelona, Your 10 Honor. And I believe in fairness to Mr. Huang, under the 11 Sixth Amendment, that my presence really is required. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But then would we have to go next 13 week? When do you get back from Spain? 14 MR. COBB: I get back from Spain a week from 15 Friday, Your Honor. A week from tomorrow. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I would say that if this 17 thing does not continue tomorrow, then there is no urgency to 18 have a status conference with Judge Lambert tomorrow. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It appears that way. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll schedule it at his convenience 21 to discuss the issues. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay, let's look at a calendar. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: However, one other -- you know, I 24 want to raise. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. Witness - 5/12/98 252 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Given the fact that there has been 2 testimony provided here, that there's been Fifth Amendment 3 privilege -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: It is a matter of public record, as 6 reported, that Johnnie Chung, someone that Mr. Huang has been 7 involved with has been threatened. His life has been 8 threatened. And I am concerned -- candidly -- frankly, I 9 want Mr. Huang to live a long and healthy life, let alone to 10 provide all this testimony. I ask this Court to consider 11 finding out whether Mr. Huang has some protection. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yeah, I will. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Under those circumstances. Because 14 this just came out. And apparently, Mr. Chung does have 15 protection. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will look for that immediately. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: And if you would like the article, we 18 can provide that to the Court because he is an important 19 witness. And as a human matter, we don't want anything to 20 happen to him. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I appreciate that, Mr. Klayman. 22 And I'll into it. 23 MR. COBB: And we're grateful for that. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay, counsel, if you want to give 25 me a date, we'll just continue this at a later date. Witness - 5/12/98 253 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Are we all agreed, counsel, that 3 we shall resume in this place -- continue the deposition of 4 Mr. Huang on May 3rd, starting at 10:00? 5 MR. COBB: Thank you, Your Honor. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 7 MR. COBB: And thank you, counsel for your 8 professional courtesy. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: You're welcome. 10 (Whereupon at 4:48 p.m. the proceeding were 11 adjourned, to reconvene on May 3, 1999.) 12 * * * * * 13 I have read the foregoing pages, which are a 14 correct transcript of the answers given by me to the 15 questions therein recorded. 16 Deponent___________________________________ 17 Date___________________________________