IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. : 95-0133 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Washington, D.C. Tuesday, April 20, 1999 Deposition of JUDE KEARNEY a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, 3rd and Constitution, N.W., Washington, D.C. commencing at 10:08 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA UTGOFF BRASWELL Assistant United States Attorney U.S. Attorney's Office 555 Fourth Street, N.W. 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 ELISE B. PACKARD, ESQ. Office of the General Counsel U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Deponent: J. KENLY WEBSTER, ESQ. Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge 2300 N Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20037 Also present: Thomas Fitton, President, Judicial Watch Jason Aldrich, Esq., Judicial Watch 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 10 KEARNEY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 12 Transcript of Deposition of Jude Kearney October 8, 1996 21 No. 13 Memorandum dated August 10, 1994 to Jim Hackney and Melissa Moss from Jude Kearney, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Service Industries and Finance 57 No. 14 Delegation List, Presidential Business Development Mission to China August 26 to September 3, 1994 67 No. 15 Memorandum dated August 22, 1994 from David L. Mercer to Martha Shoffner 75 No. 16 Memorandum dated June 21, 1994 to the Democratic National Committee, attention David Mercer, from Charlie Trie and Jody Webb 98 No. 17 Notice of deposition duces tecum with subpoena 129 No. 18 (Under seal) No. 19 Minority Donor List 244 No. 20 Democratic National Committee Managing Trustee Events and Membership Requirements 253 No. 21 Washington Post article "Donor List at Commerce Called Personal Document" June 1, 1997 259 4 KEARNEY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 22 Washington Times article "Ex-Commerce Official Testifies DNC Sent Trip-for- Donations List, Backs Key Part of Public Interest Firm Judicial Watch's Suit" 264 No. 23 Asian-Pacific-American appointees list 281 No. 24 Letter dated October 1, 1993 to Yah Lin Trie from Jude Kearney 265 No. 25 Memorandum for Melinda Yee from Jude Kearney, Office of Service Industries, Josephine Ludolph, Director, and memorandum to William Taylor from Jude Kearney dated October 13, 1995 319 No. 26 Washington Post article, "Liu and Johnny Chung: Puzzling Financial Ties, Details Emerge in DNC Donor's China Link" 325 No. 27 Article, "China Money Linked to Clinton Campaign" 335 No. 28 Report of Government Reform and Oversight Committee, "Investigation of Political Fundraising Improprieties and Possible Violations of Law," dated November 5, 1998 344 No. 29 Diary of John Huang 349 No. 30 Memo dated January 13, 1994, Trade Mission to Russia 350 No. 31 Memorandum, Office of Business Liaison, Week in Review No. 5, to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter, OBL Weekly Activities, August 6, 1993 354 No. 32 Lists of documents 358 5 KEARNEY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 33 Donor File 361 No. 34 List 365 No. 35 Memorandum dated March 30, 1994, Minority Exporters, to Tracey Rancifer 367 No. 36 Memorandum dated April 9, 1994, Contacts for Latin America, to Tracey Rancifer 374 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is 3 the deposition of Jude Kearney taken by the counsel 4 for the Plaintiff in the matter of Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 v. U.S. Department of Commerce in the U.S. District Court 6 of Columbia, Case No. 95-0133, held in the chambers of 7 Judge John Facciola at the U.S. District Court for the 8 District of Columbia, on this date, April 20, 1999 and 9 at the time indicated on the video screen, which is 10 10:08 a.m. 11 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am the videographer. 12 The court reporter today is Rita Hemphill from the firm of 13 Diversified Reporting. 14 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, General Counsel and 16 Chairman of Judicial Watch. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. WEBSTER: My name is Kenly Webster and I am 19 representing Jude Kearney. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the U.S. 21 Attorney's office, representing the Department of Commerce. 22 MS. PACKARD: Elise Packard, Office of the General 23 Counsel, Department of Commerce. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter please 25 swear in the witness? 7 1 Whereupon, 2 JUDE KEARNEY 3 was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn, 4 was examined and testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if I could raise a 7 preliminary matter? I don't know if you want it on or off 8 the record. 9 We filed yesterday a motion for leave to depose 10 Johnny Chung. Your Honor should have a copy of that. 11 We hand delivered a copy on Ms. Braswell. 12 I was wondering if Your Honor would entertain 13 shortening the briefing schedule for that. It's a very 14 simple, straightforward motion. 15 One of the reasons that we filed it very 16 quickly is because Mr. Chung is reported to be in the 17 District of Columbia on April 27th and 28th, testifying 18 before the Government Reform and Oversight Committee, and we 19 believe that as a matter of economy for all parties, 20 including Mr. Chung, if we could get a court ruling on that 21 to see if we could depose him in and around that time period 22 it would save everybody time and expense. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, any objection? 24 MS. BRASWELL: I have no objection, Your Honor. 25 Shortening it -- 8 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No objection to shortening the 2 time within which to respond? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Right. I do have an objection to 4 the taking of the deposition. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, when can you get me your 6 opposition? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Well, we're in deposition today, 8 tomorrow. I have a court hearing Thursday morning. I'm not 9 sure who's going to be available on Friday. I'll do it 10 Thursday afternoon. By the end of the day? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: While the Court is in recess on 12 Friday, I plan to be here, so I could -- 13 MS. BRASWELL: But it will be easier if I just get 14 it in before the Friday. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Good. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason -- and I don't know how 17 Your Honor is going to rule, I trust in our favor, obviously, 18 but if not, we'd like enough time to take it to Judge 19 Lamberth before Mr. Chung testifies on the 27th. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's look at the calendar. 21 The 27th is Tuesday? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: The 27th is Tuesday. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you would hope to -- if he's 25 testifying on Tuesday, when do we hope to do it? 9 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I would hope to be able to get the 2 issue to Judge Lamberth on Friday, even if the Court's not 3 open. That way he could at least take it home. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So you want me to rule 5 on Thursday, as soon as I get it. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Thursday and I'll prepare either 7 nothing or something in anticipation so I can get it in 8 quickly. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, let's see if we 10 can work with that schedule, but I guess -- have you all 11 spoken to Mr. Chung's counsel and is he all set up for that 12 date? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We have not spoken with Mr. Sun, but 14 we intend to do so. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 16 MS. BRASWELL: I don't know if Mr. Chung's counsel 17 is even aware of this request. Perhaps Mr. Klayman can speak 18 to that. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: He's not aware of it. No. 20 MS. BRASWELL: It seems to me, Your Honor, then, 21 that in fairness to Mr. Chung his counsel should be 22 identified and he should be given an opportunity to weigh 23 in on whether or not he should be deposed. 24 I can speak for the Department of Commerce, but 25 not for Mr. Chung. It seems elementary fairness that his 10 1 attorney should be aware of this request. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, we'll be very happy to 3 get that to Mr. Chung as soon as we can locate where Mr. Sun 4 is located. However, in the past in this case, we have 5 received court leave to depose individuals. The court has 6 then provided time for the individual to quash. I don't 7 suspect there's going to be any problem. 8 Based on reports, Mr. Chung's counsel is quite 9 cooperative and so is Mr. Chung. In fact, Janet Reno, 10 Attorney General, has given permission for Mr. Chung to 11 testify. I don't see why in the interests of justice the 12 Justice Department would oppose this. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I would appreciate if you 14 would give whatever you file to me by hand to his lawyer. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We will -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I will make contact with his 17 lawyer and see what his position is -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We will attempt to -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- if he wants time to file an 20 opposition and we'll have to work around the schedule. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: -- locate him. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Or I can hear him orally before 23 the deposition begins. We can work something out. But let's 24 try and accommodate everybody so we can this done. 25 Sir, you had something? 11 1 MR. WEBSTER: One matter of courtesy, if Your Honor 2 please. There's one individual present who didn't introduce 3 himself. I'd appreciate knowing who -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who are you, sir? 5 MR. ALDRICH: Jason Aldrich, attorney for Judicial 6 Watch. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Aldrich is an attorney with 8 Judicial Watch. 9 MR. WEBSTER: I see. Thank you, Your Honor. 10 My preliminary matter goes to two things. 11 One, Mr. Klayman, I'd like to make this 12 contribution to Judicial Watch. I'm sure you haven't had 13 many contributions to the charitable institution, but I'd 14 return the check for the witness fee here. 15 Second, if Your Honor please, Mr. Kearney will 16 testify that he has no documents responsive to the request 17 for subpoena duces tecum, that was the case at the time of 18 his original deposition where he was deposed rather 19 extensively, but there is a question in my mind about 20 documents because in the course of representation of him, 21 I have acquired some documents here in connection with my 22 activities as counsel and I want to make sure that I am 23 correct in concluding that those documents would not be 24 producible. They are documents that have been basically on 25 the table in other proceedings, but which ones those are is 12 1 of some protective interest to me as his counsel, which ones 2 I'm interested in, which ones I'm focusing on. 3 In addition, I have some transcripts and 4 technically the transcript, I think, would be responsive to 5 the language of the document request here. I have 6 Mr. Kearney's transcript, for example, which I have marked 7 up, and I assume that, again, that would be excluded from the 8 requirement for Mr. Kearney to produce documents. 9 As he will testify, he has searched his files, and 10 I'm sure Mr. Klayman will ask him considerable questions 11 about it, and has no documents responsive to the subpoena, 12 took none from the department, destroyed none and so forth. 13 So I would like to make sure that the documents 14 I have acquired as his counsel since representation, and I 15 did not represent him at the initial deposition, I came into 16 representation thereafter, that they are excluded from the 17 requirement of production. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me suggest this, Your Honor. 19 Perhaps Mr. Webster could prepare a list of those documents 20 and serve them upon us. If there's anything which obviously 21 falls within the scope then we can argue about it at that 22 time. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you have those documents with 24 you now? 25 MR. WEBSTER: I believe I do, Your Honor. Again, 13 1 it's the selection of which documents that I have asked for 2 copies and are focusing on that is an interest to me to 3 protect as his counsel, so I'm really not interested in 4 producing a list of what I do have and by implication what 5 I don't have. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why do you interpret the subpoena 7 duces tecum to require production from you if it's served 8 upon Mr. Kearney? 9 MR. WEBSTER: Well, my experience, Your Honor, is 10 that counsel could make an argument that the files of a 11 lawyer belong to the client and therefore as his agent and 12 amanuensis that I therefore hold the documents in his name. 13 And I would take the opposite position, but in fairness to 14 Mr. Klayman and in order to avoid the kinds of questions that 15 were raised by Judge Lamberth in his memoranda of the 22nd of 16 December, I thought I would present the issue to the Court 17 and ensure that I was taking the correct position. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I think maybe the best way 19 to do this, the way I would like to do it, is if you would 20 collect those documents and file them with me in camera and 21 under seal. I will look at them and I will compare them 22 against the scope of the subpoena and we'll return to that 23 issue in a moment. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Now, can we exclude transcripts from 25 that, Your Honor? Because I -- you know -- 14 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't know what the subpoena 2 says. I've never seen it. 3 MR. WEBSTER: Well, it doesn't say anything about 4 transcripts. It just says all documents. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: May I see the subpoena? 6 MR. WEBSTER: Or maybe Mr. Klayman could agree that 7 they don't have to be produced. Any and all documents, 8 things that refer to, relate in any way to the Department of 9 Commerce trade missions. Well, some of the transcripts 10 involve questions concerning that. I would think that -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So the point is not 12 academic. Mr. Klayman already has the transcript, right? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Not necessarily, Your Honor. There 14 are other proceedings where Mr. Kearney has testified and it 15 would be very helpful for us to see what exists. We may not 16 know every instance where he has testified. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Has Mr. Kearney testified in any 18 other place besides this deposition? 19 MR. WEBSTER: He has provided information to the 20 Congress, yes, Your Honor, in connection -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Was that transcribed? Was that 22 transcribed? 23 MR. WEBSTER: Yes. In one case, at least, it 24 was, Your Honor, but it's a public record. It's been 25 released to the public. It's something that Judicial Watch 15 1 could obtain if they wanted to obtain, along with everybody 2 else. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And that's the only other instance 4 where he testified under oath about these matters that are 5 identified in the subpoena? Trade missions, communications, 6 lists, so forth? 7 MR. WEBSTER: As Your Honor knows, well, there were 8 two instances where the Congress talked to him and he was 9 under oath. There have been internal investigation by the 10 department, but that testimony was not under oath nor 11 transcribed. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The department being the 13 Department of Commerce? 14 MR. WEBSTER: That's correct, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So your concern is that there may 16 be documents that have come into your possession by virtue of 17 being his counsel -- 18 MR. WEBSTER: Correct. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- that may be responsive to the 20 subpoena. 21 MR. WEBSTER: Because of its breadth. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Because of its breadth, but you 23 fear that disclosing them would tend to abrogate the 24 attorney-client privilege? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, that's correct, Your Honor. 16 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Or the attorney work product 2 privilege. 3 MR. WEBSTER: That's correct. And particularly 4 since these documents are known to the parties of this case, 5 I see no need to divulge either the document titles 6 themselves or the documents themselves, some of which I have 7 only copies that I've marked up and underlined, focused and 8 written comments on. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, what were the source of the 10 documents in the first place? Someone gave them to you? 11 MR. WEBSTER: Yes. Yes, Your Honor. Someone with 12 an interest in the matter would have given them to me. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So someone gave these documents to 14 you in your capacity as Mr. Kearney's attorney. 15 MR. WEBSTER: That's correct. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: While examination was being made 17 of him by someone else? 18 MR. WEBSTER: In some occasions, yes, and in some 19 occasions I asked for copies of certain documents that 20 I wanted to see. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, it would appear that under 22 Rule 26, you are asserting that those documents are 23 privileged. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Correct. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The way we handle this usually is 17 1 by a privilege log. Now, privilege logs I find not terribly 2 useful because they don't tell me enough of what I want to 3 know. 4 What I would prefer to do is, as I say, you make 5 a tender of them to me in camera and under seal and I will 6 review them and I will then hear you and I'll hear from 7 Mr. Klayman and Ms. Braswell as to their -- whatever you want 8 to say as to why their disclosure to Mr. Klayman would tend 9 to violate either privilege. 10 MR. WEBSTER: Could we exclude the transcripts from 11 that, Your Honor? I understand from talking to government 12 counsel that nobody prior to me has raised the question of 13 whether a transcript has been covered by the subpoena, but 14 if that's the case, then the assumption of the parties in 15 this matter to date has been that they are not covered by 16 the subpoena for whatever reason. But in any event, I seem 17 to be the first one to raise that question. 18 It seems to me kind of silly for me as a sole 19 practitioner to go reproducing Mr. Kearney's transcript, 20 et cetera, the transcripts here, and therefore I would like 21 to have that excluded from the requirement. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would you have any objection, 23 since this testimony was given in public, of making your copy 24 available to Mr. Klayman so he can copy it and then he would 25 return it to you? As a matter of professional courtesy? 18 1 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, Your Honor. My only objection 2 is based on the fact that I have one copy and I've marked it 3 up and made notations on it. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, who has the 5 original copy of that that's unmarked? Did you have to buy 6 it from the reporter? 7 MR. WEBSTER: The original copy would be in the 8 hands of the investigating committee of the Congress, in this 9 case, the United States Senate. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Have you seen that, Mr. Klayman? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know if I've seen the one 12 that he's referring to. I know that one exists. 13 MR. WEBSTER: There's only one. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: At the Government Reform and 15 Oversight Committee. However, Your Honor, what I would 16 recommend is do a privilege log as well as an in camera 17 submission. That way we'll know if we already have it, but 18 it clearly is covered by the subpoena. 19 Matters have occurred since Mr. Kearney's 20 deposition. It was this lawsuit which to some extent 21 triggered later investigations by Congress, so that's the 22 reason why these later produced documents are important. 23 We didn't have them at the time of the first deposition. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. So we shall proceed in 25 that fashion. Any documents that on their face appear to be 19 1 covered by the subpoena but as to which a claim of either 2 attorney-client privilege or work product is being made, 3 including transcripts, will be submitted to me in camera and 4 under seal and I will look at them. 5 MR. WEBSTER: Can we exclude at least depositions 6 taken in this case by Judicial Watch? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Of course. Of course. 8 MR. WEBSTER: All right. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 10 MR. WEBSTER: So we're only talking about 11 depositions or inquiries outside the scope of this 12 proceeding. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for clarification, Your Honor, 15 they will submit a list with that, so we can see that? 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As I understand it. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Good. 18 MR. WEBSTER: But the list itself will be submitted 19 in camera? Is that correct? Under seal? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In camera and under seal. 21 MR. WEBSTER: Do you want copies at that time, 22 Your Honor, of the documents or do you want -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Unless they're voluminous. Can 24 you make copies of them? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, sir. The only -- I'm only 20 1 hesitating on the question of my -- whether I have any clean 2 copies of anything. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, do the best you can. 4 MR. WEBSTER: But you want my notations as well? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I don't want your notations, 6 no, but if there's no way to do it, you have your notations, 7 I'll figure out a way how to expurgate them. 8 MR. WEBSTER: Thank you. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, one small point. If 10 these documents fall within the scope of the subpoena, then 11 respectfully we should have a copy of the privilege log. It 12 shouldn't be in camera. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I agree, but let me take a look at 14 it and then we'll see. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's very hard to make these 17 decisions abstractly without seeing them. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Are we otherwise ready to 20 proceed? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Did we swear the witness in 22 yet? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think you did. 24 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. 21 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Mr. Kearney, this is a continuing deposition from 3 your first deposition on October 8, 1996. You're aware of 4 that, correct? 5 A I'm aware of that. 6 Q Okay. At that deposition on October 8, 1996, did 7 you testify truthfully in all respects? 8 A I did to the best of my ability and recollection. 9 Q I'm going to show you a copy of that deposition 10 transcript, but before I do, I'm going to ask you what 11 you mean by "to the best of my ability and recollection." 12 Is that a qualifier to whether you testified truthfully or 13 not? 14 A No, it's an explanation that at that deposition, as 15 I will at this deposition, I made the absolute best effort to 16 be truthful, honest and complete. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Since this is a continuing 18 deposition, we're going to mark this exhibit consecutively 19 and call it Kearney Exhibit 12 and I'll ask that it be marked 20 Kearney Exhibit 12 with the date of this continuing 21 deposition. This is a transcript from your first deposition 22 on October 8, 1996. 23 (Kearney Deposition No. 12 24 was marked for identification.) 25 MR. WEBSTER: Could I see what the document is? 22 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Before I ask you this question, have you ever been 3 subject to lapses of memory for any reason other than, you 4 know, ordinary course of the way people forget things or have 5 you ever had medication or anything to that effect that might 6 impair your memory? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Compound and vague. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to get it out on 9 the table, Your Honor, in a way that the witness can 10 understand. 11 MR. WEBSTER: I object also. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, since you gave this 13 testimony in October -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yes? 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: First of all, have you been 16 diagnosed by any doctor with any disease that would indicate 17 that you had had difficulty remembering? 18 THE WITNESS: No. Not that I recall. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Have you noticed in living your 20 life that you have become any more forgetful than you used to 21 be? 22 THE WITNESS: Not noticeably. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman? 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q And just to follow up on Your Honor's well-phrased 23 1 questions, was that the case before your deposition on 2 October 8, 1996? 3 Were you ever diagnosed as having any kind of 4 medical condition that would impair your memory? 5 A Not that -- no, I have not. 6 Q Were you on medication at the time of your first 7 deposition on October 8, 1996 such that that could have an 8 impact on your memory? 9 A No. I was not. 10 Q In the course of your various job evaluations 11 during your long and esteemed career, has anyone ever 12 evaluated you as having a bad memory? 13 A No. Not that I recall. 14 Q Your memory is pretty good, isn't it? 15 A My memory is probably about average. 16 Q How old are you? 17 A I'm 41. 18 Q I'm showing you what has been marked as Exhibit 12. 19 I turn your attention to page 36. 20 A Okay. 21 Q Line 10. 22 A Mm-hmm. 23 Q Where I ask the question, "Did you ever have any 24 contact with the Democratic National Committee or any kind, 25 written communications, oral communications, e-mail, 24 1 whatever?" Do you see that question? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And then you give your response. 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Lines 13 to 17. 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q "No written or oral communications. I would have 8 been in contact with persons who worked for the DNC because 9 I knew them and they were friends of mine, but not with 10 regard to DNC business or Department of Commerce business." 11 A Yes. 12 Q Is that a completely accurate statement? 13 A It is -- it was then and it is now -- my 14 recollection of my interaction with the DNC. There were 15 people at the DNC whom I knew before they were at the DNC 16 with whom I was in contact. 17 Q I then asked you the question, "Did you ever have 18 a discussion with anyone at the Democratic National Committee 19 about companies that were invited on trade missions?" That's 20 lines 18 to 20. 21 And you responded at line 21, "No. I did not." 22 Does that remain a completely accurate statement? 23 A That remains my recollection. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me. You didn't read the full 25 response. 25 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm reading line 21. 2 MR. WEBSTER: You interrupted him and he went and 3 made a further response on the next page. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm getting to that, 5 Mr. Webster. 6 MR. WEBSTER: Well, you asked him whether this is a 7 full and complete answer and that was not his complete 8 answer. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I have an instruction 10 to Mr. Webster to -- he'll have an opportunity to 11 cross-examine. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Rephrase -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: To not interrupt. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go on. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me rephrase it because of the 16 interruption. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Lines 18 to 20 -- 19 I'm going to go through it, but please don't 20 interrupt. You'll have an opportunity to cross. 21 MR. WEBSTER: Be fair. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What page are you on, Mr. Klayman? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Page 36. 24 And that, Your Honor, is the way we've gone through 25 this with this case, where counsel are able to signal to the 26 1 witness a response and I ask that that kind of speaking 2 objection not be made, that Your Honor give an instruction. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, we're going to 4 comply with the Federal Rules and to preserve an objection 5 all that is necessary is a brief statement of the grounds for 6 it. 7 Okay. Let's see if we can keep moving within the 8 parameters set forth by that rule. 9 MR. WEBSTER: My only point, Your Honor, is he did 10 not correctly read the testimony when he asked the question. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that's -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go back over it as carefully 13 as we can and do it the way -- read it exactly as it appears, 14 if you will, Mr. Klayman. Go back over that question. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand, but that is not 16 accurate, what Mr. Webster said, and my problem is giving an 17 objection which is a speaking objection which then tips the 18 witness off on how to respond. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. And I ask for an instruction 21 not to do that. I take it Your Honor has given one. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I agree with that instruction. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Okay. I'm reading at line 22, "Did you ever have 27 1 any -- " I was interrupted and the response was: 2 Answer: "That I recall. I don't recall ever 3 having such a meeting, or discussion." 4 Was that an accurate statement when you made it on 5 October 8, 1996? 6 A That was an accurate statement. 7 Q Does it remain an accurate statement today? 8 A To the best of my recollection, I still do not 9 recall having such conversations. 10 Q At line 3 on page 37, "Do you recall ever having 11 received an e-mail or any other kind of communication to that 12 effect?" 13 And you answered, "No. No." 14 Was that an accurate statement when you made it 15 October 8, 1996? 16 A The "No" was referring to recall and the answer is 17 still I do not recall any such communication. 18 Q Where on line 5 does it say you don't recall? This 19 is page 37, transcript of October 8, 1996. 20 A No, I was reading your question, "Do you recall." 21 Q Okay. But the answer is clear, "No. No." 22 Correct? 23 A No, I do not recall. 24 Q And you stand by that statement today? 25 A That's correct. 28 1 Q Line 6. Question: "During the time that you were 2 with the Department of Commerce, do you recollect ever having 3 any communication -- written, oral, electronic or whatever -- 4 with the White House concerning participants on foreign trade 5 missions." 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q Answer: "I do not recall any such communication." 8 Was that a correct statement when you made it 9 October 8, 1996? 10 A Yes, it was. 11 Q Does it remain a correct statement today? 12 A It does. 13 Q Question on line 12: "Does that mean that no such 14 communications ever occurred, or just that you don't recall?" 15 Answer: "My recollection is no such communication 16 ever occurred between myself and anyone at the White House." 17 Was that answer correct on October 8, 1996? 18 A That was my recollection then and it's my 19 recollection now. 20 Q It remains correct today? 21 A That's my recollection now. 22 Q Question at line 16: "During the time that you 23 were with the Department of Commerce, did you ever have 24 communication with anyone other than a potential company 25 that would go on one of these trade missions over who to 29 1 select? In other words, anyone besides the White House or 2 the DNC?" 3 Answer: "You mean at the Department of Commerce?" 4 Question: "Anywhere." 5 Answer at line 2, page 38: "We would have 6 discussed the companies, as I think I said before, at the 7 department regarding the sectors that we were -- that we were 8 interested in emphasizing in that particular mission. So 9 I would have had conversations with people at the 10 department." 11 Does that remain a complete and accurate response 12 as of today? 13 A Yes. To the best of my recollection. 14 Q And that response was correct when made on 15 October 8, 1996? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Everything I just read to you in the last series of 18 question was accurate on October 8, 1996 and remains accurate 19 today? 20 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. That was my recollection then. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q I turn your attention to page 113 of the 30 1 transcript. 2 A Okay. 3 Q I'm turning to line 18. 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Wherein I asked the question, "You obviously were 6 aware that some of the companies that had been recommended 7 for these trade missions had donated monies to the Democratic 8 National Committee or President Clinton. You were aware of 9 that, weren't you?" 10 Answer, going on to page 114: "I definitely do not 11 recall being aware of that." 12 Was that answer completely accurate on October 8, 13 1996 when you made it? 14 A At the time that I made that statement, that was 15 exactly correct. I did not recall that there were any -- my 16 understanding of that question related back to discussions 17 within the Department of Commerce. 18 Q It related back some 70-some pages? Is that what 19 you're saying? In this transcript? 20 A Well, I'm looking at this current discussion and 21 you're talking about during the time at the department and 22 I'm just telling you that my recollection is that that 23 conversation didn't take place. 24 Q Well, the question is very simple. The question 25 says "You obviously were aware that some of the companies 31 1 that had been recommended for these trade missions had 2 donated monies to the Democratic National Committee or 3 President Clinton. You were aware of that, weren't you?" 4 You understand that question to mean -- I'm just 5 simply asking whether you were aware that companies that had 6 been recommended for trade missions had donated monies to the 7 Democratic Party or President Clinton. That is the question, 8 is it not? 9 A Is that the question? That's what you're asking 10 me? 11 Q Well, based on the plain wording of the question. 12 A Okay. 13 Q Okay. You understand that to be the question, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So consequently, when you answered, "I definitely 17 do not recall being aware of that," you were responding that 18 you were not aware that companies who had been recommended 19 for the trade missions had donated monies to the Democratic 20 Party or President Clinton. That's what you responded to on 21 page 114, lines 1 and 2, correct? 22 A I'm not sure that I was responding -- I think what 23 I was responding to is that, number 1, I don't recall that 24 there was ever any discussion within the department about who 25 was or was not a donor and then I have no basis of 32 1 independently knowing who was a donor. 2 Q During the time up to and including the deposition, 3 the first session on October 8, 1996, have you ever been 4 diagnosed with hearing problems? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you since been diagnosed with hearing 7 problems? 8 A No, I have not. 9 Q Okay. So that is not the question. You're telling 10 me that you were responding to another question, not the one 11 that I just read to you at lines 18 to 22 on page 113? 12 MR. WEBSTER: Objection as argumentative. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, overruled. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm telling you I was giving you what 15 I was responding to and what I am responding to. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Well, I want to know -- I want you to tell me where 18 in this lines 18 to 22 are the words which led you to believe 19 that you were responding to a question about what had been 20 discussed at the Department of Commerce. 21 Where is it in lines 18 to 22 on page 113 that you 22 gleaned that question? 23 A From the context of your questions. In any event, 24 my answer was exactly as I have it here, I did not recall 25 that there was any discussion or any awareness of who were or 33 1 were not donors. 2 Q I didn't ask that question. Tell me where in lines 3 18 to 22 on page 113, the question that I asked, are the 4 words which led you to believe that I was asking about 5 whether there were discussions at the Department of Commerce 6 rather than whether it was something that you knew as a fact, 7 that companies that had been recommended for trade missions 8 had donated monies to the Democratic Party or President 9 Clinton. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 12 Argumentative. And the words speak for themselves in the 13 deposition and he answered the question to the best of his 14 ability. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: Let me repeat. I was responding to 17 two facts -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking -- let me just stop you -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, let him finish and 20 then you can ask your follow-up question. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. 22 THE WITNESS: I was responding to two facts: the 23 fact that I did not recall any discussion of who were or were 24 not donors within the department and the fact that I had no 25 independent knowledge of who were or were not donors, as 34 1 relates to who was recommended for trade missions. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So consequently I can read your response at lines 1 4 and 2 on page 114 two different ways; that's what you're 5 saying? Number one, I can read it that you're not aware of 6 any discussions that companies recommended for trade missions 7 had donated to the Democratic Party or President Clinton; 8 correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And you didn't have any knowledge at all, from 11 whatever source, that any such companies had donated to the 12 Democratic Party or President Clinton? 13 A I have no independent knowledge of that. That's 14 correct. 15 Q Did you have any knowledge of any kind of that, 16 indirect or otherwise? 17 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q At the time that you testified. 21 A Not that I recall. Not that I recall. 22 Q Not that you recall then or not that you recall 23 now? Then being October 8, 1996. 24 A Right. Not that I recall. 25 Q At either time? 35 1 A Then being October 8, 1996. Not that I recall at 2 that time. 3 Q So are you saying that you might have had knowledge 4 of companies being recommended for trade missions, that they 5 were donors to the Democratic Party or President Clinton, but 6 at that point, on October 8, 1996, when you answered at lines 7 1 and 2 of page 114, you just forgot? 8 A No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is as of 9 that date, I had no independent knowledge of who were or were 10 not donors that I recall as between those who had been 11 recommended for trade missions. That's straightforward. 12 That's what I'm testifying to you. 13 Q Did you have any knowledge as to those who had been 14 recommended for trade missions in terms of participation at 15 trade mission events? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me phrase that differently. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Does that apply, that you had no knowledge that 20 companies being recommended for trade missions were also 21 donors to the Democratic Party or President Clinton, does 22 that apply to companies that participated merely at trade 23 missions events? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. Lacks any 25 context. 36 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand your 4 question because there were thousands of people who 5 participated at trade missions events. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Were you aware on October 8, 1996 of any of those 8 companies being donors to the Democratic Party or President 9 Clinton? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, could you help me? 11 What's the difference between a trade mission and trade 12 mission event? Is one here in America and the other a trade 13 mission beyond America? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me see if I can put in the 15 context of the question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q On these trade missions, there were sometimes 18 events that took place such as receptions and meetings and 19 things like that, correct? 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q Correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And there were individuals and companies that 24 attended those events that weren't listed as participants on 25 Department of Commerce trade missions, correct? 37 1 A That's correct. 2 Q So my question is as of October 8, 1996, were you 3 aware of any companies who were not listed as participants on 4 trade missions by the Department of Commerce who had donated 5 money to the Democratic Party or President Clinton that 6 participated at those events? 7 MR. WEBSTER: Objection as vague and confusing. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: At the time of the event themselves, 10 I was not aware. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Were you aware of any -- I'm sorry, did you want to 13 finish, say anything more? 14 A That's the answer. At the time of the events 15 themselves, I was not aware. I have heard through media 16 and other sources that a number of people obviously are 17 supposed to have been substantial donors to the party. 18 Q On October 8, 1996, did you have knowledge of 19 companies that participated at trade mission events that 20 were donors to the Democratic Party or President Clinton? 21 A I was aware of allegations of donors who would have 22 participated in those events, but at the time of the events 23 themselves, there was no discussion or independent knowledge 24 by me of who was or was not. 25 Q On October 8, 1996, what information did you have 38 1 about individuals or companies that participated on trade 2 mission events which had donated to the Democratic Party or 3 President Clinton? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague and over broad. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't specifically recall. I don't 7 specifically recall. I mean, I obviously know now of many 8 people who are alleged to have been -- 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Your use of the phrase "specifically recall," what 11 do you mean by specifically recall? 12 A Okay. I don't recall. 13 Q Does that mean you have an idea, but unless you get 14 a 100 percent hit, you don't recall? 15 A I just don't recall. I don't recall. 16 Q Do you have an idea now, such as you've just 17 discussed? 18 A Oh, I've been asked a number of times about 19 Mr. Trie being a substantial donor and Mr. Chung being a 20 substantial donor, many others that I've seen in the press 21 being substantial donors who were members of various events, 22 not necessarily Department of Commerce events. 23 Q When you talk about Mr. Trie, you're talking about 24 Charlie Trie? 25 A Yes. 39 1 Q T-r-i-e? 2 A Yes. Correct. 3 Q And when you're talking about Mr. Chung, you're 4 talking about Johnny Chung? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And those two individuals did participate on 7 Department of Commerce trade missions, correct? 8 A They did not. 9 Q I'm not talking about whether they were formally 10 invited. 11 A Okay. 12 Q But those two individuals did show up on a 13 Department of Commerce trade mission, correct? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: They appeared. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe they may have -- may 18 have -- first of all, I'm not specifically aware of what all 19 events they might or might not have participated in because 20 they didn't share that with me, but I do recall that -- that 21 they may have participated in one trade mission. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q In fact, that was the trade mission to China in the 24 fall of 1994, correct? 25 A Yes, that's correct. 40 1 Q Okay. That was the same trade mission where 2 Bernard Schwartz of Loral Corporation was actually on the 3 Commerce list and went on that trade mission. 4 A That's my recollection. 5 Q And what did those individuals do on that trade 6 mission in the fall of 1996? 7 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. I don't think he 8 testified they were on the trade mission and that's the 9 phraseology that he's using here. I don't think that's the 10 testimony of the witness. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Speaking objection, Your Honor. 12 MR. WEBSTER: His phrasing -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to this. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Could you, Madam Reporter, 15 please repeat the penultimate question? 16 THE COURT REPORTER: Sure. Just a moment. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I really take strong 18 issue with that kind of an objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: An objection well taken. 20 I think a brief statement of the objection and the context -- 21 (The record was read back by the court reporter.) 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, Mr. Klayman, did we get as 23 far as we had? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: When I use the word "participated" -- 25 THE COURT REPORTER: One moment, please. One 41 1 moment, please. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She's got to get to where she 3 was. Hold on. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: Go ahead. Thank you. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: When I use the word "participated," 7 I'm not talking about formally appearing on the Department of 8 Commerce manifest. 9 I'm just talking about what did they do when they 10 showed up at that trade mission to China, what events did 11 they participate in, what occurred. Let's take the question 12 with regard to Mr. Trie. 13 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, you would have to ask 14 Mr. Trie what he did. I saw Mr. Trie, I think, at a dinner 15 during the trade mission. He was not a trade mission 16 participant. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What dinner was that? 19 A It was -- I don't know. It was a dinner. It was a 20 large dinner during the event. 21 Q Well, generically speaking, what kind of dinner was 22 it? 23 A I don't know what you mean by what type of dinner 24 was it. What did they serve? 25 Q Well, I'm not talking about going to McDonald's in 42 1 downtown Beijing. Was it an official function? 2 A Oh, yes. It was an official function. 3 Q What kind of an official function was it? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm not following your question. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's the simplest I can possibly ask 7 it, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I take it on these trade missions, 9 the invited country would hold dinners for their 10 distinguished guests? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, but there would be more than one 12 dinner. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Was this such a dinner, as 14 to the best of your recollection? 15 THE WITNESS: That's my recollection, it was. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you would have -- to the best 17 of your recollection, the Chinese government held the dinner 18 and invited these gentlemen to be with them? 19 THE WITNESS: No, that is not my recollection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What is your recollection of how 21 they came to be at this place? 22 THE WITNESS: Probably asked someone to -- as did a 23 number of other business people, American business people, 24 who were in town asked to be invited or got invited somehow. 25 It was not unusual in Asia, Africa, Latin America, for 43 1 business people to be invited to attend. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Even though they hadn't come on 3 the trade mission. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, specifically because they hadn't, 5 because the trade missions were limited. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I see. 7 THE WITNESS: And so business people who were in 8 town were invited to participate. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is that clear, Mr. Klayman? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a start. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me see if I can follow up. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Your secretary at the Commerce Department was 15 Christine Sopko, one of them, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And you had another one, correct? 18 A Yes. Mary Michael. 19 Q Mary Michael. Christine Sopko sent the itinerary 20 of the trade mission to China, this is the fall of 1994, to 21 Mr. Trie. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did she not? 24 A She would have to testify to that, but it's 25 possible. 44 1 Q Well, let us stipulate here that we have 2 Ms. Sopko's testimony. 3 A Okay. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to stipulate that, as events 5 may require, we would ask the Court permission for 6 supplemental testimony. I'm just asking about what you know. 7 MR. WEBSTER: I object to the stipulation aspect. 8 That's testimony of another witness. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't mean it legally, I just -- 10 I'm trying to instruct him, Your Honor, maybe you can 11 instruct him -- 12 MS. BRASWELL: I -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: -- not to refer me to another 14 witness, I'm not interested in another witness. 15 MR. WEBSTER: May I make one point, Your Honor? 16 I thought from Judge Lamberth's order that we were here on 17 destruction of documents and removal of documents. 18 We're now talking about activities of a trade 19 mission which took place abroad and it seems to me that we're 20 straying quite far afield -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We are, because the topic of Judge 22 Lamberth's discussion is admittedly, as you say, the 23 destruction of those documents but we also necessarily have 24 to inquire into the possibility of their creation and that is 25 what we're trying to do and Mr. Klayman is trying to do. 45 1 MR. WEBSTER: Well, I haven't heard -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He's trying to figure out who was 3 there and what was the relationship of those people being 4 there to the fact that they have given money to a particular 5 party. That is in my view a legitimate inquiry under Judge 6 Lamberth's order. 7 MR. WEBSTER: But I haven't -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So deeming your objection along 9 the lines of relevancy, it is overruled. 10 MR. WEBSTER: I still haven't heard a single 11 question about retention of documents or creation of 12 documents or opportunity to create documents, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Be that as it may, we shall 14 proceed. 15 MR. WEBSTER: Okay. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q That list, and let me back up here. The itinerary 18 was sent by Ms. Sopko to Mr. Trie at your instruction, 19 correct? 20 A I cannot say that that's correct. I don't recall 21 that that's correct. It may have been a request from 22 Mr. Trie himself, but I don't recall now. 23 Q Was it the practice of your office -- what was 24 your position, just for identification purposes, for the 25 magistrate judge, at the Department of Commerce? 46 1 A I was deputy assistant secretary. 2 Q And what were your duties and responsibilities? 3 A I had triplicate duties. First and foremost, I was 4 doing trade promotion and trade development on behalf of the 5 services industries. Number two, I was responsible for 6 administering the congressionally mandated Export Trading 7 Companies Act. And, number three, I was responsible for 8 assisting in an intergovernmental effort to develop trade 9 finance policy. 10 Q And Christine Sopko worked under your direction and 11 control, correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Was there anyone else that you worked with that 14 could give her orders to do things? 15 A Give her orders to do things? 16 Q Did she work under anybody else's direct 17 supervision? 18 A No, just mine. 19 Q Okay. Was it -- 20 A But others could request and she would respond. 21 Q Was it the practice of your office, meaning you and 22 Ms. Sopko, that anybody could call in like Charlie Trie and 23 have anything sent to them? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 25 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. That's not his testimony. 47 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 2 THE WITNESS: My recollection is not that it was a 3 practice that Ms. Sopko was at anyone else's direction, but 4 Ms. Sopko understood, as I understand, that ours is a service 5 organization and American business people very frequently 6 called and asked for information and materials that were 7 helpful to them in their ability to access markets and would 8 have received it not just from Ms. Sopko, but from myself, 9 Mary Michael and others in our office. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Was there any written directions on what Ms. Sopko 12 or Mary Michael could provide to outside persons requesting 13 information? 14 A I don't recall any such written guidelines, just 15 common sense, I would imagine. And obviously nothing that 16 was a security risk. 17 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Ms. Sopko as 18 to what she could provide to outside persons and entities? 19 A I'm not sure that we had a conversation about the 20 generic subject, but I would receive requests frequently from 21 around the globe for information which if I was able to 22 provide it, we would. 23 Q At the time that Mr. Trie made the request for the 24 itinerary, was it his request or was it your idea to send it 25 to him? 48 1 A As I testified before, I don't recall. I don't 2 recall how the request was made. 3 Q Before the request was made, you had made the 4 acquaintance of Mr. Trie. 5 A Yes, I had. 6 Q And you had met with him on a number of occasions, 7 correct? 8 A I had met with him on an infrequent basis. 9 Q And how many bases are infrequent? What's the 10 frequency? 11 A Oh, I don't recall. I probably testified to it 12 earlier. I don't recall the number of times I've seen 13 Mr. Trie. 14 Q Was it -- before that point in time that Ms. Sopko 15 sent the itinerary, was it over five times? 16 A I frankly don't recall. It could have been as many 17 as five times. 18 Q And, in fact, you had met with him in China before 19 that, correct? 20 A Yes. The first time I met him was in China. 21 Q And you had seen his office, correct? In China? 22 A I don't recall that he had an office. I think he 23 had a hotel room. 24 Q Okay. And you had met with him more than once in 25 China before that itinerary was faxed by Ms. Sopko to 49 1 Mr. Trie for the trade trip in the fall of '94. 2 A I don't specifically recall. As I testified, I had 3 met with Mr. Trie infrequently, but more than once prior to 4 that time. 5 Q And Mr. Trie had met with you at the Commerce 6 Department, in your office there, correct? Before that 7 itinerary was ever faxed by Ms. Sopko to him. 8 A I believe he had. 9 Q So Ms. Sopko knew Mr. Trie. She had seen him. 10 A Yes. Ms. Sopko knew hundreds of our constituents, 11 as I did. 12 Q I just asked about Mr. Trie. 13 A Well, I was just saying that that was the normal 14 course of business. 15 Q That she knew Mr. Trie. 16 A She had met Mr. Trie. 17 Q Okay. Where is that itinerary today that was 18 faxed to Mr. Trie? Where was it stored at the Commerce 19 Department? 20 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask the latter question. 22 MR. WEBSTER: Could you clarify? You want the 23 fax that Trie got, where that is? Or do you want the 24 itinerary? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll withdraw the question. 50 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Where was that itinerary stored in your office that 3 Ms. Sopko faxed to Mr. Trie? 4 A More than likely, it was somewhere in the many 5 files that made up the office files generally, which 6 obviously Ms. Sopko would have had access to. 7 Q Did you see the document before it was faxed to 8 Mr. Trie? 9 A I had seen the itinerary many times in many 10 iterations. 11 Q Did you see the document which was actually faxed 12 by Ms. Sopko to Mr. Trie? 13 A I don't recall that document specifically. 14 Q And the reason it was faxed to Mr. Trie is because 15 you were inviting Mr. Trie to participate on events during 16 the trade mission to China in the fall of '94, correct? 17 MR. WEBSTER: Objection, Your Honor. There's no 18 basis for that question. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't recall specifically inviting 21 Mr. Trie. I understood from Mr. Trie, as well as a number of 22 others, a number of other people and companies in Beijing 23 that they wanted to participate in the events of the trade 24 mission. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that's the third time now 51 1 that we've had a speaking objection. The next time it 2 happens I'm going to ask for sanctions. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So be it. Move on. 4 MR. WEBSTER: Your Honor -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a way -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Gentlemen, proceed. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a way of signalling the 8 witness that that's, you know, a question to pay attention 9 to. There's no need for that kind of a question. 10 MR. WEBSTER: It's a legitimate -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection that he said was 12 objection, there is no basis for that question, by which 13 I suppose he meant that there was -- what, no evidentiary 14 foundation for the question? 15 MR. WEBSTER: That is correct, Your Honor. No 16 evidentiary foundation, which is a legitimate objection, and 17 I do resent being bullied here by these comments. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Your point -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Just say lack of foundation. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If you can just say objection, 21 lacks foundation, that would suffice. 22 Please proceed. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q I'm not going to dwell on this question, but just 25 for purposes of the magistrate who was not there during the 52 1 first deposition, you are from Arkansas, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And many of your family members have been or are 4 employed by either the State of Arkansas or the Clinton 5 administration, correct? 6 A I wouldn't say many, but I'm not the only Kearney 7 who has worked in the Clinton administration, either as 8 governor or president. 9 Q In fact, you have a sister that works in the White 10 House, correct? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q What's her name? 13 A Janice. 14 Q And what's her position? 15 A She is an assistant to the President. 16 Q And what are her duties and responsibilities? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 18 MR. WEBSTER: I again would object to all this line 19 of questioning as being totally irrelevant. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. I don't think we're 21 getting -- 22 MR. WEBSTER: This is a continuing deposition, 23 asked and answered. 24 MS. BRASWELL: It's also outside the scope. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, I'm looking at pages 53 1 118 and 119, in which this is discussed. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. I was trying to do it for 3 Your Honor's benefit. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's okay. I've read them. You 5 don't have to. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. You've read the transcript? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Exactly. I'm looking right at it. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Good. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Mr. Trie is from Arkansas, correct? 11 A Originally, I think he was not born in Arkansas, 12 but he lived there for years. 13 Q And I believe you testified in one proceeding that 14 Mr. Trie, you had spoken with him orally over the phone 15 before you ever met him and he had a southern accent, 16 correct? 17 A Yes, that's what I recall. 18 Q Okay. Now, you knew Mr. Trie back in Arkansas, 19 didn't you? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 21 THE WITNESS: Definitely -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Definitely did not. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Were you aware that he had a restaurant in 54 1 Arkansas? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 THE WITNESS: I was not aware. I had never heard 5 of Mr. Trie before he introduced himself to me over the 6 phone. Nor of his restaurant. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, you made a special point of having him invited 9 to the events during the China trade mission in '94, correct? 10 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: I did just respond to that question 13 before. I do not specifically recall making a special effort 14 to get Mr. Trie invited to events. Business people in these 15 areas tend to be very savvy at getting themselves invited and 16 getting themselves into events. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you communicate with anyone else a desire to 19 have Mr. Trie included in events or participate in events 20 during the trade trip to China in the fall of '94? 21 A If we're talking about -- there are two events here 22 and I think you may be mixing them up. There was a trade 23 mission, I think, in August of 1994. 24 Q Right. 25 A And that's the event where I recall seeing 55 1 Mr. Trie. There was a further event in Asia somewhere, 2 and I don't know if it was China or Hong Kong, in which 3 Mr. Trie expressed some interest in participating and 4 providing a reception for that. And, again, this was very 5 common and still is, I would imagine, that stops where trade 6 missions are going to be local business people want to host 7 that. 8 And so at a time and point, at a point in time, I 9 did receive a recommendation that Mr. Trie be allowed to 10 provide such an event. I did what we're required to do or 11 what I felt like I was required to do and I sent that to 12 others to decide. 13 Q But that related to a visit in 1993, correct? 14 A No. Not that I'm aware of. 15 Q Did it relate to the trade mission to China in the 16 fall of '94? 17 A The trade mission to China that I'm aware of didn't 18 occur in the fall of 1994. It occurred in August of 1994. 19 Q Okay. August of '94. I view that as fall. 20 A I don't think that my note regarding Mr. Trie 21 related to that trade mission. My recollection is that it 22 did not relate -- 23 Q That it -- I'm sorry? 24 A That it related to a subsequent visit, one which 25 I didn't participate in. 56 1 Q So you're saying there was a note where you 2 recommended that he participate in a trade mission event or 3 events or host a trade mission event or events? 4 A That he be allowed to host a reception for the 5 delegation. And, again -- well, I think I've told you that 6 this was not uncommon. Many companies wanted to host such 7 receptions and they always had to go through certain 8 procedures. That request came to me and I put it through 9 that procedure. 10 Q Are you saying that anyone, no matter how small or 11 how insignificant or unknown, that contacted your office you 12 would make a high level recommendation to have them host an 13 event at a trade mission? 14 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: Because I was not particularly high 17 level, or didn't feel myself particularly high level, 18 I didn't consider it a high level recommendation. I simply 19 passed on a request that was made to me by a U.S. business 20 person who wanted to interact with the delegation and it 21 wasn't the first or the last time that I made recommendations 22 like that. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 24 reporter to mark as Exhibit 13. This is actually the entire 25 exhibit. Do we have a stapler? Okay. 57 1 We've got them stapled, Your Honor. Thank you. 2 We'll just have to remark it. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 4 (Kearney Deposition No. 13 5 was marked for identification.) 6 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, ma'am? 8 MS. BRASWELL: I'm freezing. Is there any way that 9 we can do something about that? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Because the 11 last time you were all complaining about how hot it is, so -- 12 I can't seem to please you, but we'll get it down. 13 MS. BRASWELL: I don't think I complained about 14 that. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, several people did. 16 Could you shut it off? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Thank you very much. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're quite welcome. Because 19 Judge Lamberth would keep it on. You know that as well as 20 I do. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I'm showing you what has been marked as Exhibit 13. 23 Have you seen this document before, Mr. Kearney? 24 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me, Your Honor. Could we have 25 the exhibit described? I've been handed something that's 58 1 marked Exhibit 38 and it's comprised of three pages -- four 2 pages -- and it's got something attached to it underneath 3 that's 101 and that's comprised of two pages so -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, wait, wait. Please, 5 Your Honor, again, it's a way to tell him what's -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's see. What's your 7 problem with the document, counsel? 8 MR. WEBSTER: I don't know what he's talking about. 9 What is the exhibit? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I assume, Mr. Klayman, you're 11 handing this to the -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy to identify it. I have 13 no problem -- 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's Exhibit 13, right? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And you've handed it, I assume, 17 the same copy to the witness that you did to me. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. Right. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. For purposes of the 20 record, it has in that one exhibit seven different pieces of 21 paper -- one, two, three, four, five pieces of paper. Is 22 that right? 23 MS. BRASWELL: I have six, Your Honor. 24 MR. WEBSTER: No, I have six, Your Honor, and 25 I have -- 59 1 MS. BRASWELL: Including a blank page. 2 MR. WEBSTER: The last two pages, one of them is 3 marked Exhibit 101. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't see that marking on 5 here -- yes, I see it. Okay. But despite the exhibit 6 numbers in the lower right-hand corner, Mr. Klayman, you 7 are now describing this, these six pages, as one exhibit, 8 Exhibit 13. Is that right, sir? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: That's correct. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. You may inquire. 11 MR. WEBSTER: The inquiry was as to this document, 12 Your Honor. Since there are multiple documents -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He's going to explain what he 14 wants. We'll have an understanding that the document that 15 I'm looking at is the document which is Exhibit 13 consists 16 of 13 pages. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me change this, Your Honor. 18 The first three pages are Exhibit 13. We can remove the last 19 two. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Including the blank page? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know that -- I don't have a 22 blank page. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So -- 24 MS. BRASWELL: Well, are we missing a page? 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The document that begins with the 60 1 words "Opening the door to China"? Is that right, 2 Mr. Klayman? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: No. The last document is -- what we 4 should remove, "Office of Service Industries, Josephine 5 Ludolph, Director." 6 MS. BRASWELL: Remove those two pages? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Melinda Yee from Jude Kearney. Yes. 8 Just to keep the documents discrete. This actually only got 9 stapled together. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 11 MS. BRASWELL: So how many pages are we left with, 12 Mr. Klayman? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'll identify them. 14 The document that I'm referring to is a memorandum 15 to Jim Hackney and Melissa Moss from Jude Kearney, Deputy 16 Assistant Secretary for Service Industries and Finance, of 17 August 10, 1994, cc Nancy Linn Patton and Ira Sockowitz. 18 Attachments bearing the numbers 01BA0470 and the second page, 19 although the Bates number is removed at the top, "Opening the 20 door to China." So that consists of three pages. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Mr. Hackney, have you ever seen this memorandum of 24 August 10, 1994? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me, Mr. Kearney. 61 1 MS. BRASWELL: It's Mr. Kearney, not Mr. Hackney, 2 that you're deposing. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Kearney. Excuse me. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have seen this document 5 before. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you see it in or about August 10, 1994? 8 A It's possible that I did. Yes. I don't 9 specifically recall that date, obviously, but -- 10 Q This document was not produced in the Judicial 11 Watch case, it came from an alternative source. Do you 12 know why, Mr. Hackney, this was not produced to Judicial 13 Watch? 14 A Mr. Kearney. 15 Q Mr. Kearney. I'm sorry. 16 A I do not know why this document was not produced 17 Q Now, this document states "Here is some background 18 information on Charlie Trie. As you know, Charlie is very 19 interested in hosting a brief reception or other appropriate 20 event for the delegation in Beijing. I am forwarding this 21 description of his company to the general counsel's office 22 for their vetting. I have also asked those involved in the 23 scheduling process to consider finding a space of time in 24 which Charlie could interact with the delegation." 25 The document contains two attachments, correct? 62 1 A The document that I have in my hand has three pages 2 attached to it. 3 Q You remember these three pages, do you not? 4 A I remember basically this transmission and I don't 5 recall the contents of the attachment. In fact, I'm pretty 6 sure that I never focused substantially on it. 7 Q Who prepared the second page where it states at 8 the second paragraph "Mr. Trie has developed a personal 9 relationship with a number of government officials throughout 10 China"? 11 A Where is that? 12 Q Second paragraph, second page. 13 A I don't know who prepared this page. 14 Q You were aware, however, at the time that this 15 memorandum was sent to Mr. Hackney and Ms. Moss that that 16 statement was correct, that Mr. Trie had developed a personal 17 relationship with a number of government officials throughout 18 China? 19 A Was I aware of it? 20 Q Yes. 21 A I was not personally aware of that. No. And, in 22 fact, I'm pretty sure that I did not focus substantially on 23 this document. 24 Q Have you ever met Jody Webb? 25 A I don't believe so. 63 1 Q Have you ever met -- I'm sorry, go on. 2 A I don't recall meeting Mr. Webb. 3 Q You know it's a Mr.? 4 A I think it's a Mr. I think I spoke to him on the 5 phone once. 6 Q Okay. And when did you speak with him on the 7 phone? 8 A Oh, I don't recall. It may have been in connection 9 with this. 10 Q Why did Mr. Webb call you? 11 A He may have called me for the purpose of providing 12 me with this information. I don't recall. I don't 13 specifically recall. 14 Q Well, you just testified, so obviously you do 15 recall. Tell me everything you remember about that call. 16 A I remember speaking to him and that he was in 17 Arkansas. That's what I recall. And I remember that he 18 worked for Mr. Trie in some capacity. 19 Q And he called you before the trade mission to China 20 in the fall of '94? 21 A I'm not saying that. I don't know when he called 22 me. I don't recall that it was before or after this event. 23 I'm saying that it could have been. 24 Q Did he call you to coordinate public relations 25 about Mr. Trie and his company, Daihatsu for use during the 64 1 trip to China in the fall of '94? 2 A No, he did not. 3 Q You didn't know him before? 4 A I did not know him. And I don't know that he did 5 public relations. I don't know what his job was. 6 Q Well, it says on page 2, "For more information, 7 call Jody Webb, Public Relations Consultant." 8 A Okay. 9 Q Does that refresh your recollection? 10 A No, it does not, because I never focused on that 11 fact before. 12 Q Look at the third page, "Opening the door to 13 China." 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q This document emanated from Mr. Jody Webb, did it 16 not? And it's a resume of Mr. Trie and his company, Daihatsu 17 International Trading Company. 18 A That's what this document suggests, yes. And 19 I assume that we received it from Mr. Webb. 20 Q And both of these documents were sent on to Jim 21 Hackney and Melissa Moss to try to convince them to include 22 Mr. Trie in hosting a brief reception on the trade mission to 23 China in the fall of '94. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Objection again as to the continuing 25 confusion here -- 65 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I object to this. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: This is unnecessary. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, can you answer that 5 question? 6 THE WITNESS: I can answer the question. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please do so. 8 THE WITNESS: The answer is that it was not sent to 9 try to convince them per se, it was sent to them as 10 information for their consideration. 11 MR. WEBSTER: Again, I object. The question still 12 confuses the record -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The record will speak for itself. 14 Proceed, Mr. Klayman. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I instruct -- well, 16 I ask Your Honor to instruct Mr. Webster to make an objection 17 as to vagueness in the future, rather than to go through a 18 long colloquy? 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That was not a long colloquy, but 20 as I've explained in several instances, an objection that is 21 consistent with the Federal Rules of Evidence, objection, 22 vague, objection, asked and answered, will suffice. That is 23 the way I hope we all will conduct ourselves. 24 MR. WEBSTER: My objection is it's misleading 25 because it misstates the evidence. 66 1 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, Your Honor. I move for 2 sanctions. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Motion for sanctions denied. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'll -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on just a second. 6 Mr. Kearney, if you don't understand the question, 7 please say so. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: To state that it misstates the 9 evidence is to tell the witness something and we have been 10 through this in this case. Judge Lamberth has issued a 11 number of opinions, I know Your Honor agrees with this 12 procedure. 13 Every time I get into areas that this is going to 14 happen, it's going to seriously compromise my ability to 15 question this witness. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will monitor it very carefully. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Now, I ask you if this refreshes your recollection 19 as to the events that Mr. Trie participated in during the 20 trade mission to China in the fall of '94. 21 A You did not ask me that. 22 Q Does it refresh your recollection? That's my 23 question. 24 A Let me repeat to you that as of the date of this 25 memorandum, I'm pretty certain -- not pretty certain, 67 1 I recall that the first trade mission to China might have 2 occurred already. 3 Q Let me stipulate to you that that's not the trade 4 mission that we are referring to that occurred in the fall of 5 '94, in September of '94. You are aware of a trade mission 6 to China in September of '94? 7 A I'm forgetting the dates, but I believe there was a 8 trade mission in August. To China in August of '94, but 9 I could be -- I could be wrong. 10 In any event, go ahead with your question. 11 Q Well, I just did. Does it refresh your 12 recollection as to the events that Mr. Trie participated in? 13 A No, this does not. This does not refresh my 14 recollection. 15 Q What else did -- you went to that trade mission in 16 China in the fall of '94, correct? 17 A The trade mission that I went to was, I believe -- 18 it was in 1994, but I don't think it was in the fall. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 20 reporter to mark as Exhibit 14. 21 (Kearney Deposition No. 14 22 was marked for identification.) 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Have you seen this document before? 25 A I might very well have seen it before. 68 1 Q It consists of two pages. It's entitled 2 "Delegation List Presidential Business Development Mission 3 to China August 26 to September 3, 1994." 4 A Okay. I see we're both correct. It was August and 5 September. I remembered August for some reason. 6 Q And it lists the formal participants on the trade 7 mission, correct? 8 A As of the date of this document, yes. 9 Q Right. 10 A It changed from time to time. 11 Q As formally invited by the Department of Commerce. 12 A That's what this seems to indicate. 13 Q Okay. As opposed to being invited by you 14 personally. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Now, this does refresh your recollection as to the 17 date of the trade mission that I am referring to to China, 18 August 26 to September 3, 1994? 19 A Yes. Yes. 20 Q And this refreshes your recollection that the 21 document, Kearney Exhibit 13, which is the August 10, 1994 22 memo to Jim Hackney and Melissa Moss from you, related 23 to that trade mission from August 26th to September 3, 1994. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Now, with all that refreshing, tell me what it 69 1 is that Charlie Trie participated on as far as events on 2 the trade mission to China August 26 to September 3, 1994. 3 A Let me repeat that I do not know what all Charlie 4 Trie might have participated in, whom he might or might not 5 have met with from the delegation. 6 I recall one event at which I believe I saw him. 7 My recollection is that the event that he had requested, the 8 request that he had made for a reception, obviously did not 9 occur. 10 Q You met with Charlie Trie on that trip to China, 11 did you not? 12 A I saw him, yes. 13 Q Where did you see him? 14 A I don't recall. I think it may have been at the 15 hotel that we were all staying at. 16 Q And what hotel was that? 17 A I think it was the China Wall. 18 Q And where did you meet him at the China Wall? 19 A Oh, I don't recall. Maybe in the lobby or the 20 coffee shop. I don't recall. 21 Q And what did you discuss with him at that time? 22 A How things were going, how he was doing, how was 23 business. 24 Q Why did you meet with him in the lobby at that 25 time? 70 1 A He requested a meeting. 2 Q And what was the purpose of his request? 3 A He was interested -- I had requests for meetings of 4 other American business people while I was there. 5 Q Wait a second. He was interested in the meetings 6 of other American business people? 7 A No, no. He was interested in meeting with members 8 of the delegation. It was very common. 9 Q So he requested the meeting with you so you could 10 arrange for him to meet with other members of the delegation. 11 A No. No. That is not correct. He requested a 12 meeting with me because he wanted to meet with me. 13 Q And what did he tell you he wanted to meet with 14 you about? 15 A Just wanted to meet with me to discuss generally 16 what he was trying to do and to just say that, you know, he 17 was trying to be a good businessman in China. There were 18 those of us, myself included, who knew how difficult that 19 was. 20 Q So Charlie Trie contacted you to go down into the 21 lobby to meet with him? 22 A The best of my recollection. 23 Q And all he said was he wanted your approval that he 24 was a good businessman? 25 A No, he didn't need my approval. 71 1 Q Was it your practice to give certificates of 2 approval to people to do business? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Tell me what he really wanted, Mr. Hackney. What 7 was it -- 8 A Why do you keep referring to me as Mr. Hackney? 9 Q Excuse me, Mr. Kearney. Why did he call you down 10 into the lobby and what did he ask you for? 11 A He didn't ask me for anything. As I recall. 12 Mr. Klayman, you know, long before any of this came to fore, 13 business people wanted to have contact with U.S. delegations 14 whether they were from Commerce or from other places because 15 they wanted to feel a part of the government's effort to open 16 markets. 17 Q So let me see if I've got the chronology right. 18 You send a formal memo to Mr. Hackney and Ms. Moss saying 19 that Charlie Trie should be set up in some kind of brief 20 reception. You have contact with his public relations 21 consultant, Jody Webb. You have sent to Mr. Trie through 22 Ms. Sopko an itinerary of what goes on during the trade 23 mission and you go down into the lobby of the China World 24 Hotel and you just want to make sure that Charlie Trie is 25 doing okay. 72 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did I get that right? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: No, you did not. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 MS. BRASWELL: The question misstates this 8 evidence. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Mr. Kearney can 10 correct it if he sees fit. 11 THE WITNESS: You did not state that correctly. 12 I didn't go down to the lobby to see if Charlie was okay. 13 I went down to the lobby because I was a U.S. Government 14 employee and calls were made on me both at home and abroad 15 to meet with U.S. business people. 16 It wasn't too much, it wasn't burdensome on me. 17 I had many meetings in Beijing that particular trip with 18 U.S. insurance companies, bankers and many others who wanted 19 to feel a part of the delegation. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What I'm trying to find out, you have all this 22 prior activity on behalf of Mr. Trie. You make your own 23 recommendation to Mr. Hackney and Ms. Moss. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Somehow the itinerary gets sent to Mr. Trie. 73 1 A Not somehow. Very specifically it was sent to 2 him. 3 Q Correct. And I'm just trying to get from you as 4 much information as you can give me as to what Charlie Trie 5 said to you and what you said to him during the meeting, 6 other than how you doing, Charlie, because that's all you've 7 testified in effect up to this point. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: That's not all I've testified to. 12 I don't recall the specifics of the conversation. My 13 recollection of Mr. Trie was that he seemed ernest in his 14 effort to become a business person. 15 I never really understood specifically what all of 16 his business he was trying to accomplish, but I don't have a 17 specific recollection of going through with him step by step 18 all of what he was trying to do. It was no more, no less 19 than what I've said. 20 He made contact with me. He wanted to know how the 21 delegation was going and he wanted to know -- he just wanted 22 me to know that he was still trying to -- trying to become a 23 businessman. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q And what did you tell him? 74 1 A Probably nothing very committal because nothing 2 was requested of me. 3 Q Well, what did you tell him that was non-committal? 4 A It's good to see you, how are things, that's -- 5 I don't recall beyond that. I told him that I thought the 6 delegation was a very good delegation. I thought that this 7 was a very productive trade mission. 8 Q Did you meet with Mr. Trie after that -- was anyone 9 present during that meeting? 10 A I don't recall. I don't think so, but I don't 11 specifically recall. 12 Q Mr. Trie was taking notes during that meeting? 13 A No, not that I recall. 14 Q Mr. Trie was a prolific note taker, based on your 15 experience in having contact with him, correct? 16 A No. That's not correct. 17 Q You took notes from time to time, didn't you? 18 A Not based on my conversations with business people 19 out in the field. 20 Q You never took a note pad with you? 21 A No, not that I recall. 22 Q You never had a laptop computer? Did you take a 23 laptop computer to China? 24 A No, I didn't know how to use it. 25 Q But you did have a laptop computer at the 75 1 Department of Commerce, right? 2 A No, I did not. 3 Q You did have a computer, correct? 4 A I had a computer. And I am ashamed to say, and 5 I think I said this to you in our first deposition, my first 6 deposition, that I didn't know how to use it. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 8 reporter to mark as Exhibit 14. 9 THE COURT REPORTER: Fifteen. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. Fifteen? 11 THE COURT REPORTER: I think. Fifteen. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: You're right. 14 This is a memorandum of August 22, 1994 from 15 David L. Mercer to Martha Shoffner. 16 (Kearney Deposition No. 15 17 was marked for identification.) 18 MR. KLAYMAN: It's Exhibit 26 to some legal 19 proceeding. It's produced by the Democratic National 20 Committee, Bates numbers 1275756. Again, a document 21 which was not produced to Judicial Watch in this case, 22 but which we got from alternative sources. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. There's no indication 24 this is a Department of Commerce document. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just putting on the record -- 76 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection is noted, 2 Ms. Braswell. 3 Please continue with your inquiry. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Who is Martha Shoffner? 6 A As I recall, Ms. Shoffner worked with or for 7 Charlie Trie. 8 Q And what was her position working for Charlie Trie? 9 A I don't recall what her position was. 10 Q Where did she work? 11 A I think she worked out of Arkansas. 12 Q Did Charlie Trie have an office in Arkansas up to 13 the time leading up to the trade mission in the fall of '94 14 to China? 15 A I understood he had an office there. I believed he 16 had an office there. I was told he had an office there. 17 Q Who told you he had an office there? 18 A I think he did. 19 Q Did you ever communicate with that office, you or 20 the Commerce Department? 21 A I believe -- 22 Q Up to the trade trip, up to the time of the trade 23 trip to China in the fall of '94? 24 A I believe that I did. I believe I spoke to 25 Mr. Trie from there. And, as I mentioned to you before, 77 1 I spoke at some point with Mr. Webb, who I assume was also 2 there. 3 Q Did you ever call Mr. Trie in Arkansas? You, 4 Mr. Kearney? 5 A I might certainly have. I don't specifically 6 recall. I might have gotten a message asking me to call. 7 Q What do you mean by "might certainly"? 8 A It wouldn't have been unusual. 9 Q Did you call him more than once? 10 A I might have. I don't specifically recall. 11 Q Did you ever visit that office in Arkansas? 12 A Never did. 13 Q Did you ever visit Mr. Trie's home in Arkansas? 14 A No, never have. 15 Q Did you ever see him in Arkansas? 16 A No, never have. That I recall. 17 Q Now, this memorandum is from David L. Mercer. 18 Who is David L. Mercer? 19 A David Mercer -- I know a David Mercer at the -- 20 who works at the Democratic National Committee. 21 Q And what's his position there? What was his 22 position in and about August of 1994? 23 A I don't believe I can -- I can't say specifically. 24 Q He handled fundraising, correct? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 78 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know what Mr. Mercer handled. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Had you ever had contact with Mr. Mercer up to the 5 time of the trade mission to China in the fall of '94? 6 A I had met Mr. Mercer on a couple of occasions 7 socially and I don't remember the timing. 8 Q Did you ever talk to him about taking donors on 9 trips overseas at the Commerce Department? 10 A Not that I recall. I think I've told you before 11 I don't recall that. 12 Q So you don't remember that. In other words, you 13 don't know whether you did or you didn't, you just don't 14 recall. 15 A My recollection is that I did not. 16 Q Taking the word donor out of the question, did you 17 ever talk to Mr. Mercer just about certain companies going on 18 trade missions at the Commerce Department? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q Have you ever seen this memorandum before? The one 21 that's marked as Exhibit 15? 22 A This memorandum is not at all familiar to me, so my 23 belief is that I've never seen this before. 24 Q Have you ever heard of a Cathy Hoffman at the 25 Commerce Department? 79 1 A Cathy Hoffman? Catherine Hoffman, yes. 2 Q Catherine Hoffman? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who in terms of position was Catherine Hoffman? 5 A She was a special assistant to the secretary. 6 Q Secretary Brown? 7 A Secretary Brown. Yes. 8 Q And what were her duties and responsibilities? 9 A They were plenary. I mean, she was involved in 10 trade missions, she was involved in assisting in trade 11 policy, she was involved in the trade promotion coordinating 12 committee, so they were plenary. I mean, she worked at the 13 direction of Mr. Hackney and the secretary. 14 Q Did she work out of the secretary's office? 15 A Yes, she worked on the fifth floor, which was the 16 secretary's floor. 17 Q Where did she rank in hierarchy in terms of 18 Secretary Brown's assistants, Barbara Schmitz or Melanie 19 Long? Was she above them in the pecking order? 20 A I don't know. 21 MR. WEBSTER: May I object? Just -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What is your objection, counsel? 23 MR. WEBSTER: Totally outside the scope -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 MR. WEBSTER: -- of Judge Lamberth's order and not 80 1 relevant to anything and this witness is certainly not the 2 best one to talk about her duties up there. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Overruled. 4 MR. WEBSTER: And I think he has also failed to lay 5 a foundation for whether Mr. Kearney is in a position to know 6 the answers to these questions. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know in what pecking order 9 the secretary's assistants fell. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, there is an example of 11 how a speaking objection gives rise to an answer. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It certainly is. 13 All right. Let's give the reporter two minutes, 14 please. We'll reassemble at 11:35. 15 (A brief recess was taken.) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 17 11:40. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, we are available on 19 April 29th. 20 MS. BRASWELL: I'll let the witness know, 21 Your Honor. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I have already blocked that day 23 out, haven't I? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, you had at the last deposition. 25 It's only four hours you need to block out, according to your 81 1 order. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Kearney, turning your attention to Exhibit 15? 5 A Yes. 6 Q The first paragraph, it's "Re: follow up to meeting 7 with Charlie Trie." 8 Were you aware that Mr. Mercer and Mr. Trie had met 9 prior to the trade mission to China in the fall of '94? 10 A I'm not sure that I -- no, I don't specifically 11 recall being aware of that. 12 Q I then states, "This is to follow up with my 13 meeting with Mr. Trie before he left for Beijing. Several 14 issues were discussed. Below is a status report and 15 suggestions for how we might handle the matters outlined 16 below. 17 "References for D.C. residence: Attached is a 18 letter I wrote in Mr. Trie's behalf and forwarded to the 19 appropriate party. Mr. Mays is sending his letter out on 20 August 23, 1994." 21 The reference to Mr. Mays, do you know a Mr. Mays? 22 A Well, there is no first name there, so I can't -- 23 I know a Mr. Mays. 24 Q What's his first name? 25 A I know a Richard Mays. 82 1 Q And did he work at the Democratic National 2 Committee as well? 3 A No. Not to -- no, I don't think he ever did. 4 Q Where did he work at the time? 5 A He's a lawyer in Arkansas. 6 Q Do you know what law firm he practiced with at the 7 time? 8 A Mays Law Firm. 9 Q And what was Mr. Mays' involvement with Charlie 10 Trie in and around this period of time, if any? 11 A I have no idea. I mean, you know, he was from 12 Arkansas, Charlie's from Arkansas, I'm sure he knew Charlie. 13 I know he knew Charlie. 14 Q Did Mr. Mays play a role in raising money for the 15 Democratic National Committee? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know what role Mr. Mays 19 played for the DNC or for the party. I do recall -- 20 I believe that Mr. Mays had some position within the DNC, 21 but I don't know that that position carried with it a 22 responsibility for raising money. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Up to this point in time, did you, Mr. Kearney, 25 ever participate in any fundraising activity on behalf of the 83 1 Democratic Party or the Clinton-Gore campaign? 2 A Not on behalf of the Democratic Party. When 3 I joined as a volunteer in 1992, I think I may have raised 4 within my law firm 700 or 800 dollars in $50 checks, 5 something to that effect. 6 Q Up to this point in time, in and around August 22, 7 1994, did you ever attend Democratic or Clinton-Gore 8 fundraisers or events related to fundraising? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: I can't say for sure. I mean, 12 I could have gone to events that were viewed certainly by 13 the Democratic Party as fundraising events but from my 14 standpoint I was going to a Clinton event, but I did not -- 15 I don't specifically recall going to a Democratic National 16 Committee event per se. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you see Mr. Trie at any of these events? 19 A I saw Mr. Trie at -- I don't specifically recall 20 where I saw -- I saw Mr. Trie at some event, but I don't 21 recall the specific event. 22 Q And that was a fundraising event? 23 A I cannot say specifically that it was a fundraising 24 event. I don't recall a specific event where I saw him. 25 Q In fact, you went to an event in Mr. Trie's 84 1 apartment at the Watergate, correct? 2 A To an event? 3 Q Or you visit Mr. Trie at the Watergate with a group 4 of people, correct? 5 A I went to Mr. Trie's apartment in the Watergate, 6 but it wasn't an event. 7 Q What was it? 8 A It was a gathering of some folks, some primarily 9 from Arkansas. 10 Q Who were the folks from Arkansas? 11 A As I recall, a former mayor, Lonnie Shackleford, 12 was there. Mr. Trie. Myself. I don't recall who else. 13 Q And, in fact, at that gathering in the Watergate 14 apartment, there were some people from the Commerce 15 Department other than yourself, correct? 16 A Yes. I think there were. Yes, I think there were. 17 Q Jill Schuker. 18 A No. I've never been -- I don't recall ever going 19 to an event -- 20 Q Ms. Catherine Hoffman? 21 A I don't recall Ms. Hoffman being at this event. 22 Or Jill Schuker. 23 Q Rob Stein? 24 A No, I don't recall -- 25 Q Melissa Moss? 85 1 A No. 2 Q Sally Painter? 3 A No. Don't recall any of them being at this event. 4 Q Who from the Commerce Department was there? 5 A I don't remember her name. She was a special 6 assistant and I don't remember her name, but she worked at 7 the Commerce Department. 8 Q Special assistant to Ron Brown? 9 A No, special assistant was a generic term. I mean, 10 either you were a deputy assistant secretary or you were 11 something else. 12 Q Lauri Fitz-Pegado? 13 A I don't think Lauri Fitz-Pegado was at the event. 14 Q Nancy Linn Patton? 15 A I don't think -- I don't recall them being at this 16 event. 17 Q Okay. And when did this event occur? 18 A Oh, I don't recall. 19 Q Prior to the trade trip to China in the fall of 20 '94, correct? 21 A I don't think correct. I think it was after that. 22 Q What leads you to believe it was it was afterwards? 23 A Just my recollection. 24 Q During that event at the Watergate, there was 25 discussion about how companies were selected to go on trade 86 1 missions at the Commerce Department, correct? 2 A There may have been, not a part of a discussion 3 that I took part in, that I recall. 4 Q What leads you to believe there may have been? 5 A No, I'm only saying it because you're saying it. 6 I don't have any recollection of such a conversation. 7 Q Mr. Kearney, you do know that at least one company 8 was taken on a Commerce Department trade mission because of 9 the monies that it had donated to the Democratic Party. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You do know that, don't you? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 14 THE WITNESS: No, I do not know that. I do not 15 know that. I have no recollection of that fact. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Just can't remember that fact? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: I think we're saying the same things. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q So it may have happened, you just don't remember? 23 A Oh, it may have happened, but my knowledge of it is 24 what I'm stating to you, that I don't have a recollection of 25 it. 87 1 Q Are there facts which you are aware that lead you 2 to believe that it may have happened? 3 A Leads me to believe that it may have happened? 4 No. There are not facts that lead me to believe that. 5 I have heard that allegation. 6 Q You are aware that Mr. Trie was a donor to the 7 Democratic Party, correct? 8 A I am now aware that Mr. Trie was a donor to the 9 Democratic Party. 10 Q And, in fact, prior to going on that trade mission 11 to China in the fall of '94, Mr. Trie told you he had donated 12 to the Democratic Party, correct? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Misstates facts. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: I do not recall Mr. Trie -- first 16 of all, I don't recall that Mr. Trie and I discussed his 17 donations either to the Democratic Party or to anyone else. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Mercer or others from the Democratic National 20 Committee had advised you that Mr. Trie was a donor, correct? 21 A Advised me? For what purpose? 22 Q Told you. 23 A I mean, I don't recall having that conversation 24 with Mr. Mercer. 25 Q For the purpose of giving him attention, correct? 88 1 A No. Not correct. 2 MR. WEBSTER: Your Honor, may I -- now that the 3 witness has answered the question and I can't be accused 4 of -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm still in the middle of the 6 questioning, Your Honor. 7 MR. WEBSTER: I have an objection, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. Just a second. 9 Mr. Kearney, please step out in our witness room 10 for a second. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I'll hear your objection. 13 Stay in the courtroom until I call you back. 14 (The witness was excused.) 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Counsel? 16 MR. WEBSTER: Well, my objection is this, 17 that continuously Mr. Klayman asks his questions as if 18 they are based on factual matters: Mr. Mercer told you, 19 didn't he? 20 And I know of no evidence, but I'm not certainly 21 privy to a lot of the evidence in this case, as to whether 22 that's true, but he is stating his questions as if they are 23 factually supported. 24 And he has laid no foundation for doing so and 25 I think it's unfair to the witness to posture that kind of a 89 1 question unless there is a foundation made of some sort. 2 In a way, it's a leading question and I can object 3 on the grounds that it is a leading question and ask him to 4 phrase it in the abstract, but I would maintain an overall 5 objection to that line of questioning without laying a 6 foundation. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. This is discovery. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, may I ask, before you 9 get the witness back, how you would like us to handle 10 objections when Mr. Klayman misstates evidence, misreads 11 from a document? 12 How is you would like me to make an objection 13 so that the Court can understand the basis for my objection? 14 Mr. Klayman just announced that Mr. Trie went on 15 the trade mission as part of his question. There is no 16 evidence that he went, there has been extensive testimony 17 about that. He also stated something in a document that was 18 not in there. 19 How do I -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just indicate that you wish to 21 make an objection, I'll ask the witness to step out. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: That's untrue, Your Honor. We'll go 23 on the record. I'll be happy, Your Honor -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 25 MR. WEBSTER: I would maintain the same question 90 1 of the Court and the same types of objections, that we are 2 strictured from correcting misstatements that are being made 3 by Mr. Klayman, except for misidentifying Mr. Kearney as 4 somebody else. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. At this point, we will 6 conduct it as if it were a trial in the sense that we would 7 have a bench conference. 8 If in your opinion, either counsel, that occurs, 9 please indicate to me that you wish a side bar, I'll ask the 10 witness to step out and I'll hear your objection and correct 11 it if necessary. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine, Your Honor. 13 MR. WEBSTER: Can we -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I would submit no such thing 15 occurred. 16 MR. WEBSTER: Can we state the objection without 17 stating the reason, then? 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just say objection, I would like 19 to have a side bar. At that point, I'll ask the witness to 20 step out and you can make your objection at that point and 21 I'll rule on it. 22 You may return, Mr. Kearney. 23 (The witness returned.) 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, just for the purposes of 25 clarity, I'm going to clear one thing up which I think would 91 1 be helpful for the Court, the Court will understand what we 2 went through. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Kearney, you did go on the trade mission to 5 China, did you not? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Turning to this document, it then reads "DNC 8 Finance Committee Board of Directors. The request for the 9 letter inviting Mr. Trie to serve on the finance board is 10 forthcoming. The request has been made and is being 11 processed. I meet with Mr. Terry McAuliffe on August 24th to 12 close the matter and secure the letter." 13 Mr. Terry McAuliffe participated in selecting or at 14 least recommending companies to go on trade missions at the 15 Commerce Department, did he not? 16 A I have not heard that before you just said it, so 17 I don't know. 18 Q Did you ever have contact with Mr. McAuliffe during 19 the time that you were at the Commerce Department? 20 A I met him during that time. 21 Q Where did you meet him? 22 A I was having breakfast with someone at the Old 23 Ebbitt Grill and that person knew Mr. McAuliffe and just 24 introduced me to him. 25 Q Who was that person? 92 1 A I do not recall who that was. 2 Q Was this someone who wanted to go on a trade 3 mission? 4 A I don't recall who it was. 5 Q Well, you can recall generically what was the basis 6 of your meeting. 7 A We were having breakfast. 8 Q Was it a personal friend? 9 A I don't recall who it was. I don't recall who it 10 was. 11 Q Now, you did keep a calendar of your activities at 12 the Commerce Department, correct? 13 A My secretary did, yes. 14 Q And, in fact, that calendar was turned over to 15 congressional authorities, correct? 16 A I believe it was. 17 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to who may 18 have been at that meeting? 19 A Which meeting? 20 Q At the old Ebbitt Grill. 21 A Oh. No. No, it doesn't. 22 Q Did you ever have any subsequent contact with 23 Mr. McAuliffe? 24 A I was -- I may have been at one other event where 25 I met Mr. McAuliffe and then subsequently he and I were both 93 1 at Wolf Trap because we were both being considered for the 2 board of directors. 3 Q Board of directors of what? 4 A Wolf Trap. 5 Q Of Wolf Trap. But did you ever discuss with 6 Mr. McAuliffe any companies or individuals that went on 7 Commerce Department trade missions? 8 A Not to my recollection. 9 Q So you may have, but you just forgot? 10 A Not may have -- 11 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Not may have. There's no 13 recollection of having any substantive conversation with 14 Mr. McAuliffe. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q So the answer is no? 17 A To the best of my recollection, the answer is no. 18 Q Do you know of anyone else who had discussions with 19 Mr. McAuliffe about who to take on Department of Commerce 20 trade missions? 21 A Well, you might deduce from my earlier conversation 22 that I never heard that Mr. McAuliffe was recommending people 23 for trade missions that I don't recall anyone else having 24 that conversation with me. 25 Q Does that mean you have no knowledge of that? 94 1 A I have no knowledge. 2 Q Or just no memory. 3 A Okay. Whichever. I don't have any knowledge. 4 Q You said you saw Mr. McAuliffe at one other event. 5 Was that a Democratic National Committee event? 6 A I don't think so. I'm pretty sure it was not. 7 I believe it was -- I believe he was invited to -- I don't 8 recall what the event was. 9 Q Do you know a Marvin Rosen? 10 A I know the name, I don't believe I've ever met him. 11 Q Did you ever talk to him? 12 A No, I don't recall. 13 Q Have you ever had any communication, oral or 14 written, with anyone at the Democratic National Committee 15 with regard to a company or person that wanted to go on a 16 trade mission? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: A little bit different way. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, it may be a different way, but 22 I believe I've testified that I don't recall ever having such 23 a conversation with anyone at the DNC. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Not just conversation, communication. 95 1 A Communication. 2 Q Oral or written. 3 A Communication. 4 Q E-mail, fax. 5 A All of the above. Communication. I have no such 6 recollection. 7 Q Next line here, "Mission to China. The Commerce 8 Department begins its mission to China on August 27, 1994. 9 I received word that arrangements for receptions and other 10 affairs were already handled through other sources. However, 11 Mr. Trie will receive notification of the mission's 12 activities, holding open the possibility of participating in 13 some of the events." 14 Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 15 or not the Democratic National Committee helped coordinate 16 Mr. Trie's activities on the trade mission to China in the 17 fall of 1994? 18 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: No, it does not. It doesn't help me 22 at all. It doesn't refresh me at all. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Okay. What was the other event that Mr. McAuliffe 25 invited you to? I think I inadvertently cut you off from 96 1 your answer. 2 A You also misremembered. He didn't invite me to an 3 event. I believe we both were invited to some event, but it 4 was not -- it would not have been a Democratic National 5 Committee event. It may have been in the context of Wolf 6 Trap; I don't recall. 7 Q Let me make sure I understand something correct. 8 You to the best of your recollection have no knowledge of any 9 contact with Mr. David Mercer, oral or written. 10 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: Of any contact with whom? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Mr. David Mercer. 15 A Contact between Mr. Mercer and whom? 16 Q With you. 17 A I've told you that I met Mr. Mercer. 18 Q Is it correct that you had no contact with 19 Mr. Mercer with regard to Charlie Trie? 20 A No, that is not my testimony, either. 21 Q What was your testimony? 22 A I've testified to a number of things. 23 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 24 Your Honor, I would -- 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, Your Honor. No colloquy. 97 1 MS. BRASWELL: Vague -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask for no colloquy. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Rephrase the question 4 in terms of where you are, Mr. Klayman. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q My understanding of your testimony, correct me if 7 I'm wrong, is that you had no contact with Mr. Mercer of any 8 kind with regard to Charlie Trie. 9 A That is not -- you didn't ask me that before and 10 that's also not my testimony. 11 Q What was your testimony? 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know what my -- I mean, my 15 testimony was responsive to the questions that you asked me, 16 but what question are you asking me now? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q So you did have contact with Mr. Mercer over 19 Charlie Trie? 20 A I didn't have contact with Mr. Mercer concerning 21 Charlie Trie. I was aware that Charlie knew Mr. Mercer. 22 I had contact with Mr. Mercer under other circumstances. 23 Q But not with regard to Charlie Trie. 24 A A specific meeting with Mr. Mercer about Charlie 25 Trie or anything else, I don't recall ever having one. 98 1 Q And no contact, oral or written, with Mr. Mercer 2 about Charlie Trie? 3 A Communication? Not that I recall. Not that 4 I recall. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 6 reporter to mark as -- 7 THE COURT REPORTER: Sixteen. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Let me ask the question, a few more questions, was 10 there any communication that you had with anyone that 11 concerned Mr. Mercer and Charlie Trie? 12 A That's a broad and very fuzzy question. I don't 13 recall. I don't recall. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 15 reporter to mark as Exhibit 16. 16 (Kearney Deposition No. 16 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q This is a memorandum on the letterhead of Daihatsu 20 International Trading, Inc. dated June 21, 1994 to the 21 Democratic National Committee, attention David Mercer, from 22 Charlie Trie and Jody Webb. It shows certain people who have 23 been copied with this communication and one of them is you, 24 correct? 25 A That's correct. 99 1 Q Now, you've seen this document before, haven't you? 2 A I believe I have seen this document before. 3 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me. May I -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, Your Honor -- 5 MR. WEBSTER: -- make an objection to what the 6 document says? I think it speaks for itself, but I don't see 7 a copy to on this document. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I do. 9 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Oh, I'm sorry. 11 MS. BRASWELL: It does not have a copy to. It has 12 a table. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It has a table. 14 MR. WEBSTER: It has a table. It doesn't say it 15 was a copy to. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I stand corrected. 17 MR. WEBSTER: May I object to the misstating the 18 document? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I object to that because 20 it's providing testimony here. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. No, but I was 22 mistaken, Mr. Klayman, and I apologize. I thought that in 23 the traditional form the letter indicated who else would get 24 it. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought it was a copy to, to be 100 1 candid, okay? But in any event, I got a response that he had 2 seen it before. That's what I was looking for. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q When did you see this before? 6 A It was provided to me, I believe, at an earlier 7 interview on Capitol Hill. 8 Q Earlier interview with who? With who? 9 A Either Senate staff or House staff, I don't recall. 10 Q Did you ultimately go to an event where you sat at 11 a table with Charlie Trie? 12 A No, I did not. Not that I recall. 13 Q So you may have been, you just don't recall? 14 A I remember being shown this document before and it 15 triggering in my memory that I don't believe I attended this 16 event. 17 Q But you're not sure. 18 A I'm not sure, but I don't think I attended the 19 event. 20 Q Listed at table number 1 is a Ng Lap Seng, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Do you remember attending this event and sitting at 23 a table with Ng Lap Seng? 24 A I do not recall. 25 Q Do you know who Ng Lap Seng is? 101 1 A I believe I know who that is. Yes. 2 Q In fact, you met with him, have you not? 3 A Yes, I met with whom I believe this is, although 4 I understood his name was Mr. Wu. 5 Q And you met with him during a trade trip to China? 6 A I met with him the first time in China, yes. 7 Q And Mr. Ng Lap Seng is from Macao, correct? 8 A I don't know specifically where Mr. Seng is from. 9 Q And what did you meet with Mr. Ng Lap Seng about? 10 A I was introduced to him and so it wasn't a meeting 11 with him, I was introduced to him. 12 Q Who introduced you? 13 A Mr. Trie. 14 Q And what was the nature of the introduction? 15 A I understood from Mr. Trie that Mr. Wu was going to 16 be a co-venturer with him a buildings project. 17 Q And this was a buildings project in China. 18 A I think it was. I believe it was. 19 Q Where was the buildings project? 20 A I don't recall, but I think it may have been in 21 southern China. I don't specifically recall. 22 Q And, in fact, Mr. Trie, during that trade mission 23 to China in the fall of '94, one of his objectives was to put 24 together that deal with Ng Lap Seng? 25 A I don't know that to be a fact and, in fact, 102 1 I don't know that I met with Mr. -- the man I knew as Mr. Wu, 2 I don't know that I met him at that event. 3 Q Did you ever recommend that Ng Lap Seng be included 4 on any kind of Commerce Department trade mission events? 5 A I probably would not have. I don't recall making 6 such a recommendation. 7 Q Did you have more than one contact with Mr. Wu -- 8 we'll call him Mr. Wu. 9 A It's easier on both of us. 10 Q Ng Lap Seng. 11 A I recall that Mr. Wu traveled to the States with 12 Charlie once to -- so, yes, the answer is yes. 13 Q And you met with him again when he traveled to the 14 States? 15 A Yes. 16 Q During the meetings that you had with Mr. Wu and 17 Charlie Trie you took notes? 18 A No. Not that I recall. 19 Q You saw other people taking notes? 20 A No. Not that I recall. 21 Q Did anyone use a recordation device, a dictation 22 machine? 23 A Not known to me. 24 Q Where did you meet with Mr. Trie and Ng Lap Seng in 25 the United States? 103 1 A I don't recall. It may have been -- it may have 2 been in my office, but I don't specifically recall, but it 3 was a meeting to discuss Charlie's interest in participating 4 in whatever this project was. 5 Q Now, as part of your duties and responsibilities -- 6 do you remember the time period for that meeting? 7 A No, I don't. 8 Q As part of your duties and responsibilities at 9 the Commerce Department, you had a top secret clearance, 10 correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q And, from time to time, in the ordinary course of 13 your business, you would get classified materials to review, 14 correct? 15 A Yes, I would. 16 Q And those classified materials were delivered to 17 you in your office, correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Who brought them to your office? 20 A As I recall, an official who handled classified 21 materials. 22 Q Now, did they come directly from the official to 23 you or were they handed to Ms. Sopko and then she brought 24 them to you? 25 A I think they were handed to Ms. Sopko and she had 104 1 to sign for them or something. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 3 MR. WEBSTER: May I maintain an objection to this? 4 Outside the scope and not relevant. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Now, some of these classified materials dealt with 8 economic conditions in foreign countries, correct? 9 A Yes, they did. 10 Q And some of these foreign countries were countries 11 that the Department of Commerce later took trade missions to, 12 correct? 13 A Yes. That's correct. 14 Q And you did get classified materials concerning 15 China, correct? From time to time? 16 A I may or may not have gotten materials concerning 17 China, but it wouldn't have been unusual. I got materials 18 concerning a number of markets. 19 Q Correct. And you got materials, classified 20 materials, concerning the Asian region generally, 21 correct? 22 A I don't -- no, that is not correct. I don't 23 remember getting regional information. 24 Q Well, I mean countries in the region. 25 A Well, I got information relating to specific 105 1 countries. 2 Q Such as Indonesia. 3 A I don't recall getting information on Indonesia. 4 Q Which countries do you recall? 5 A Brazil, South Africa, Nigeria, Ghana, Argentina, 6 probably China, maybe Russia. 7 Q India? 8 A I don't have a recollection of India. 9 Q Did you have the opportunity to read the deposition 10 of your secretary, Christine Sopko? 11 A I have not received a copy of that. 12 Q Now, when these classified documents were provided 13 to you, you frequently would review them at your desk, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. That's where I would review them. 16 Q And they would be laying on your desk, correct? 17 As you reviewed them. 18 A Well, I would have them at my desk reviewing them. 19 Q And sometimes you left them on your desk during the 20 day so you could go back after being interrupted and continue 21 reviewing them, correct? 22 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: I can't say that's correct. I don't 25 have a recollection of leaving classified documents 106 1 unattended. 2 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'd like to consult with 3 Mr. Kearney, please. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I continue the line 6 of questioning here? These are innocuous questions. 7 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I'd like a chance to 8 consult with him. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I would like unbridled -- not 10 unbridled, I'd like unfettered ability to ask -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Excuse me, Mr. Klayman, if I may. 12 The problem I'm having, I just was thinking about it a moment 13 ago, is that the witness may be entering an area where he may 14 be doing something he cannot do because of the nature of the 15 documents and the legal protection they have. 16 Ms. Braswell as the representative of the United 17 States is concerned about that and I believe she has to speak 18 to the witness. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to ask him the 20 contents. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But let her consult with 22 him for a moment. 23 MS. BRASWELL: I would like to consult with him. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Thank you. 107 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I was anticipating that coming a 2 moment ago. I was about to interrupt myself. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 4 12:10. 5 (A brief recess was taken.) 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 7 12:14. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, these questions are 9 getting awfully close to questions concerning classified 10 information and I have spoken with Mr. Kearney and informed 11 him that if a question is asked of him that he in any way 12 believes calls as part of the answer for the divulging 13 of classified information that he is to so say and then I 14 will raise an objection and we will deal with it at that 15 time. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Ms. Braswell. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: May I respond, Your Honor? 18 MR. WEBSTER: I also object to the line on 19 relevance again, Your Honor, and outside the scope of the 20 court order. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Webster. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine, Your Honor. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Some of these documents that you received, the 25 classified documents, were useful to plan for the trade 108 1 mission to China, correct? 2 A That is not my recollection. 3 Q Are you saying economic reports on China weren't 4 useful to promoting trade in China? 5 A I'm not saying that. I was just answering your 6 question about whether or not they were useful to me in 7 planning for the China trade mission. 8 Q But they were provided to you in anticipation of 9 the China trade mission, correct? 10 A That is not my recollection. 11 Q What leads you to believe that that's not the case? 12 A No, it's not my recollection. 13 Q You don't know one way or the other? 14 A I don't recall that I would have requested 15 information surrounding my intention to participate in the 16 trade mission. 17 Q Well, I didn't ask whether you requested it or 18 not. I just said whether or not the information was 19 provided to you to assist you to get your knowledge up to 20 speed -- 21 A I don't recall that. 22 Q -- for Department of Commerce matters such as trade 23 missions. 24 A I don't recall that in regard to the China trade 25 mission. 109 1 Q You don't recall that one way or the other? 2 A That's correct. I don't recall that it happened. 3 Q Well, I'll take your first answer. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Don't do that, 6 Mr. Klayman. Please proceed. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, whatever answer. 8 MR. WEBSTER: I object, Your Honor. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we do multiple choice, 10 Your Honor? 11 After a break where counsel consults with the 12 client, it's obvious that I can't get the same kind of 13 testimony, so I guess I'm reacting -- 14 MS. BRASWELL: I object to that. 15 MR. WEBSTER: I object to that. I voice a strong 16 objection to the overtone of that, Your Honor. That's 17 totally uncalled for. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: It was meant with some humor, 19 Your Honor. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Well, let's -- please move 21 on. Let's go on. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Now, Mr. Kearney, when Mr. Trie and Mr. Ng Lap Seng 24 were in your office, you did have classified information in 25 that office, didn't you? 110 1 A Not that I recall. In fact, if I wasn't with the 2 documents themselves, then I probably wouldn't have had it in 3 the office. 4 Q Are you aware that your secretary -- have you 5 spoken to your secretary since your first deposition, 6 Ms. Sopko? 7 A I don't recall that I have or have not. It has 8 been quite a while since I've spoken to Ms. Sopko. 9 Q Did you ever talk to her about this case? 10 A No, I did not. 11 Q Have you ever talked to Graham Whatley about this 12 case? 13 A I have not. Not that I recall. Well, obviously 14 we talked about the FOIA requests at the time of the 15 requests. 16 Q Have you ever talked about this lawsuit, this court 17 case, with Mr. Whatley? 18 A Not that I recall. 19 Q Okay. Now, are you aware that your secretary, 20 Ms. Sopko, has testified that you sometimes left classified 21 information on your desk? 22 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Foundation. 23 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of that. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry, Your Honor? 111 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, I didn't mean to interrupt 2 you. Go ahead. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q How did Mr. Seng, Mr. Wu as we call him, and 5 Mr. Trie get into your office? How did they enter that 6 office? 7 A You're going down a road as concrete something that 8 I didn't specifically state and that is that they came to my 9 office. 10 I said that it was possible that they came to my 11 office, I don't recall whether I met them at my office or 12 some other place. 13 Q Well, let's just talk about how you get into your 14 office. There is a way to -- your office is located in a 15 suite, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And one of the entrances to the suite is to walk 18 into the common area of the suite and then go into your 19 office, correct? 20 A That's -- well, it's not a common area, it's a 21 secretarial area. 22 Q Right. Now, if Mr. Seng and Mr. Trie met with you, 23 is that the route they would have taken? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And what was the number of your office? 112 1 A 1128. 2 Q Now, there was also a back door to your office, 3 correct? 4 A There was no other -- 5 Q There was another door to your office, there was 6 more than one door, correct? 7 A There was only one functional door into and out of 8 my office. 9 Q Is that the door you're talking about? 10 A Yes, the door that leads to Ms. Sopko's office. 11 Q Right. But there was another door, correct? 12 A There was another -- there was another physical 13 door which I never went into or out of and the best I know 14 wasn't functional, wasn't openable. 15 Q Did you ever try to open it? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you have any reason to believe that that door 18 was locked shut to keep you in your office? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. So there was a door, correct? 21 A It was covered by a curtain. 22 Q And that went into the hallway, correct? 23 A I don't specifically recall because I never went 24 through the door. 25 Q Are you aware that Ms. Sopko testified that people 113 1 could leave your office through that door? 2 A I am not aware that she testified -- bear in mind 3 she's been there many more years than I was. The door was 4 not functional when I was there. 5 Q Before you met with Mr. Seng at the Commerce 6 Department, did you know what his background was, Mr. Wu, 7 Mr. Seng, interchangeable? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand the 11 question. What his background was? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Yes. Do you know where he came from? 14 A No. All I know is how I was introduced to him, and 15 basically that was a Chinese businessman with whom Mr. Trie 16 might be co-venturing on a project. 17 Q Was it your practice to let people into your office 18 without a security clearance? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What special precautions were in writing about 21 letting people in your office, given the fact that you had 22 access to classified information? 23 A I don't recall what they were, but people streamed 24 in and out of offices, business people, on a daily basis. 25 Q Was there anything in writing about whether or not 114 1 classified documents should be put in a safe before you let 2 people stream into the office? 3 A There were written guidelines for the use of 4 classified information, yes. 5 Q Did you ever review them? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q And what are those guidelines called? 8 A I don't remember what they were called. They're 9 called guidelines. And you also -- I also was briefed on the 10 use of classified information. 11 Q Who briefed you? 12 A Internal security. 13 Q Did you ever show classified information to 14 Mr. Trie? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you ever show classified information to 17 Mr. Wu? 18 A I never showed classified information to anyone. 19 Q Same question with regard to Johnny Chung. 20 A I never showed classified information to anyone. 21 Q Did there come a point in time when you learned 22 that Mr. Wu had ties to Communist China? 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 115 1 MR. WEBSTER: And lack of foundation, too, 2 Your Honor. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Madam Reporter, please 4 repeat the question. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: One moment, please. 6 (The record was read back by the court reporter.) 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 THE COURT REPORTER: One moment, please. 9 Thank you. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can answer. 12 A No, that never came -- I was not aware of that. 13 Q Are you aware of that today? 14 A Aware of it? No. I'm hearing you say it, but -- 15 Q Are you aware -- did you watch the Thompson 16 committee hearings in the fall of 1997 on campaign finance? 17 A Watched them? I was aware of them, but I was 18 traveling. 19 Q Do you remember there being testimony that 20 Mr. Wu had laundered several hundred thousand dollars of 21 cash from a Communist Chinese bank to Charlie Trie which 22 subsequently was deposited in the President's legal defense 23 fund? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 116 1 THE WITNESS: I must have missed that. I was not 2 aware of that. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q So you've never heard anything about Mr. Wu's 5 alleged connections to the government of China? 6 A I don't recall hearing such information, no. 7 Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Wu and Mr. Trie the 8 transfer of monies from China to any source in the United 9 States? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall having any such 13 conversation. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you ever have any meetings with David Mercer -- 16 excuse me. Did you ever have any meetings with Mr. Trie 17 or Mr. Wu where Mr. Ernie Green or David Mercer were 18 present? 19 A I don't think I had such meetings. I do know that 20 Mr. Green had meetings -- had at least one meeting with 21 Mr. Trie and Mr. Wu. 22 Q You've known Ernie Green for a long time, haven't 23 you? 24 A I have known of him for many, many years. 25 Q Who is Ernie Green? 117 1 A Ernie Green is a favorite son of Arkansas, one 2 of the original integrators of Little Rock Central High 3 School. 4 Q And what kind of a business is Mr. Green in? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm laying a foundation, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: Mr. Green is an investment banker. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that Mr. Green has contributed to the 11 Democratic Party. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: I am not personally aware of what 16 Mr. Green's donation history is. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q But you knew that he was a contributor. 19 A When you say I knew it, I heard it by way of media. 20 Q And you heard that several years ago, correct? 21 A Several years ago? 22 Q Yes. 23 A No, I don't recall hearing that several years ago. 24 I mean, I heard it in conjunction with all of the -- with all 25 of this. 118 1 Q When was the first time you talked or had any 2 contact with Mr. Green? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: I met him here in Washington, D.C. 6 long before there was a Clinton administration. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Under what circumstances? 9 A Probably at an Arkansas event. There used to be 10 something called The Arkansas Society and I probably met him 11 there. 12 Q And did you have later meetings with him? 13 A Yes. Yes. 14 Q In Washington? 15 A Yes, in Washington. 16 Q And what were the nature of the other meetings? 17 A Social. 18 Q At fundraising events? 19 A No. No. At Arkansas-related events, people who 20 know each other get together. 21 Q Well, an Arkansas-related event might be a 22 fundraising event. 23 A It might, but the events that I'm recalling were 24 social. 25 Q You saw him at a fundraising event at least once. 119 1 A No, I can't say that that's true. I don't recall. 2 Q And you had various telephone conversations with 3 Mr. Green. 4 A Yes. 5 Q How many would you say you've had? 6 A Oh, I don't know, but very many. 7 Q Hundreds? 8 A No, not hundreds. 9 Q Did you ever correspond in writing with Mr. Green? 10 A I don't recall -- I don't recall corresponding in 11 writing with him. 12 Q With all of the contact that you've had, it's 13 fairly frequent contact over the years, correct? 14 A Not fairly frequent, but -- but, I mean, I know 15 him. I know him personally. 16 Q And he did tell you that he made contributions from 17 time to time the Democratic Party or candidates. 18 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that a fair statement? 21 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a statement -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, would you please step 24 out for a second? 25 (The witness was excused.) 120 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, would you please 2 connect this, Green's connection to this? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Ernie Green went on a trade 4 mission, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Oh, I see. And was it one of the 6 ones that was the subject of the FOIA request? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Thank you, 9 Mr. Klayman. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, may I ask whether or not 11 there are any limits as to -- Your Honor? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Are there any limits to what he can 14 ask about anybody who went on the trade mission? I mean, we 15 have hours -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm not going to rule 17 hypothetically, Ms. Braswell. I'll rule on the questions as 18 they are posed. 19 You may step in, Mr. Kearney. 20 (The witness returned.) 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead, Mr. Klayman. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q In all of your various contacts and conversations 24 with Mr. Green, he did mention to you at least once, did he 25 not, that he gave money to the Democratic Party or Democratic 121 1 candidates? 2 A I don't recall a single instance where Mr. Green 3 told me or intimated this. 4 Q But you knew that. 5 A I don't recall thinking about that one way or the 6 other, so when you say I knew it, I don't recall him telling 7 me. 8 Q You have always been very active in politics, 9 correct? 10 A Very incorrect. 11 Q You were a political appointee at the Commerce 12 Department. 13 A Yes. Yes. 14 Q And documents have been produced up there in 15 Congress showing that -- or at least purporting to show that 16 you were recommended by people as high up as Mack McLarty, 17 correct? 18 A Yes, that's correct. 19 Q So if you're not in politics, you've been around 20 people that are part of politics during your life, correct? 21 A I hope no more or no less than you, but I have not 22 been politically active. 23 Q And you are aware that these people that play a 24 role in and around politics frequently give donations to 25 political parties and candidates, correct? 122 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that any more than 4 the general population. I'm just simply not aware of what 5 people's giving histories are. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And you've been to fundraisers at people's homes 8 where they raised money for Democrats in Congress or 9 Republicans, for that matter, correct? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall any instances of that. 13 I don't recall any instances of that. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Now, you are aware that Mr. Green went on a trade 16 mission, correct? 17 A Yes. I am aware of that. 18 Q And which trade missions did he go on? 19 A I don't know about trade missions, I'm aware of him 20 going on the trade mission to South Africa. 21 Q And you recommended him for that trade mission, 22 correct? 23 A I'm not sure that I recommended him or not. A lot 24 of folks at Commerce knew Ernie Green, so I don't recall 25 that. I don't recall. 123 1 Q Did you ever discuss his participation with anyone? 2 A I probably would have discussed his participation 3 in the context of my discussing financial services companies' 4 participation. 5 Q And how did you discuss him in that context? 6 A No. I'm not saying that I did. Obviously, at 7 some point, he was part of the general discussion about this 8 trade mission, but my specific bailiwick was to focus on 9 services providers, so much more important in fact -- much 10 more important than any other factor was whether or not a 11 particular company lended to the policy objective of the 12 trade mission. So we would have discussed investment 13 bankers, insurance providers and other financial services 14 companies. 15 Q Now, you have been active, have you not, as is 16 perfectly acceptable and understandable, in various matters 17 concerning minority appointments in this administration, 18 correct? 19 A Very incorrect. 20 Q You are aware that the administration did promise 21 to appoint more minorities when it came in in 1992, correct? 22 A I was very happily aware of that. 23 Q Yes. And one of the minorities which was included 24 in that group was the African-American community, correct? 25 A Yes. 124 1 MR. WEBSTER: Objection to this line of 2 questioning. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's see if he can tie it up. 4 Go ahead, Mr. Klayman. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q There were lists that were compiled, were there 7 not, of African-Americans who should be considered to go on 8 Commerce Department trade missions. 9 A I didn't compile such a list, so I -- there may or 10 may not have been such a list compiled. 11 Q Do you know of the existence of such a list? 12 A African-Americans who should participate -- 13 Q Yes. Or African-American businesses. 14 A Who should participate in trade missions? 15 Q Who should be considered to participate in trade 16 missions. 17 A Oh, I'm not aware of any such lists. 18 Q Now, you were recommended in addition to 19 Mr. McLarty by Vernon Jordan, correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q And -- 22 A Well, let me retract that. I don't know that I was 23 recommended. I know that I spoke to Mr. Jordan at some 24 point, because he was the head of the transition and I asked 25 for his support in joining the administration. 125 1 Q And in your various discussions with Mr. Jordan, 2 you were aware of an emphasis to be more inclusive, to have 3 African-Americans participate in various governmental 4 functions during the Clinton Administration. 5 A Very incorrect. I had one conversation with 6 Mr. Jordan and it was a very short one. 7 Q In working -- you did work with Secretary Brown at 8 the Commerce Department, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you testified you had a number of meetings 11 where you were in his office. 12 A Yes. 13 Q I'm not going to go back over that. And you had a 14 lot of contact with him. 15 A Yeah. 16 Q And you were aware of a special emphasis by 17 Secretary Brown to take minority businesses overseas on trade 18 missions. 19 A Special emphasis? I can't say that I was aware of 20 that. 21 Q Or an emphasis. 22 A Mr. Brown had the same emphasis as I understood 23 others in the administration to have and that is to have a 24 diverse policy. 25 Q Shall we change the word from emphasis to desire? 126 1 That there was a desire on behalf of Secretary Brown and the 2 department to include minority businesses on overseas trade 3 missions? 4 MR. WEBSTER: Objection on relevance. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: Let me just restate my answer. There 7 was a desire by the secretary, as I recall, and we didn't 8 discuss this on a daily basis, to have a diverse -- not just 9 diverse in terms of ethnicity but diversity in terms of size 10 of company and industry. There was just a matrix of diverse 11 companies that the secretary was interested in achieving. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Now, you did communicate from time to time 14 with the Democratic National Committee to get the names of 15 minority enterprises that could go on the trade trips, 16 correct? 17 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: The answer is no. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Others at the Department of Commerce did 23 communicate with the Democratic National Committee to get 24 the names of minority enterprises that could go on trade 25 missions, correct? 127 1 A Obviously, I can't answer for others, but I'm 2 having a tough time making the nexus between having an 3 interest in finding minority companies and what you're 4 saying, so that's why -- 5 Q Well, just answer the question. 6 A Well, I've answered the question. 7 Q Do you know of others at the Department of Commerce 8 that communicated with the Democratic National Committee to 9 get the names of minority companies eligible for trade 10 missions? 11 A I know of no single instance. 12 Q Do you know of anyone who communicated with the DNC 13 to get the names of potential companies, minority-owned, that 14 could go on trade mission? 15 A I know of no such instance. 16 Q Do you know of anyone who may have participated in 17 such communication with the Democratic National Committee? 18 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Calls for speculation. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: This is discovery, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know of any person who may or 22 may not have. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Secretary Brown did tell you that he wanted to take 25 more minority businesses on the trade trips, correct? 128 1 A No. That's not my recollection, others may have a 2 different recollection, but I don't have that recollection. 3 Q And in fact, there were public pronouncements from 4 the Department of Commerce to that effect, correct? 5 A I don't recall those public pronouncements. If 6 you'd like to show me something to refresh my recollection -- 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, is this as good a 8 place as any to break for lunch? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a good point. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's break for lunch. 11 How about a quarter two? Does that give everybody enough 12 time? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: That would be fine, Your Honor. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 16 12:38. 17 (Whereupon, at 12:38 p.m., a luncheon recess 18 was taken.) 19 * * * * * 129 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:51 p.m.) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 4 1:51. 5 Whereupon, 6 JUDE KEARNEY 7 was recalled as a witness and, after having been previously 8 duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: 9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF (RESUMED) 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Kearney, I show you what I'll ask 11 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 17. This is your 12 notice of deposition duces tecum with attached subpoena that 13 we referenced this morning, your counsel referenced it, in 14 making a $48 contribution to Judicial Watch. 15 (Kearney Deposition No. 17 16 was marked for identification.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you want a receipt? 19 A No, thanks. 20 Q Just joking, of course. And looking at the 21 subpoena part of this document, Appendix A, I take it you've 22 received this subpoena before today. 23 A Yes, I have. 24 Q Did you have an opportunity to search for the 25 documents listed in Appendix A? 130 1 A I had an opportunity, yes, to ascertain whether or 2 not I had any responsive documents. 3 Q How did you go about ascertaining that? 4 A I have a very small set of documents which come 5 from the Department of Commerce that I went through. 6 Q And where are those documents stored? 7 A In my office at my law firm. 8 Q Are you still at LeBoeuf Lamb? 9 A LeBoeuf Lamb. Yes. 10 Q And how did those documents come to be stored at 11 your office at LeBoeuf Lamb? 12 A I took them there when I went to LeBoeuf. 13 Q What types, generically, of documents did you take 14 with you? 15 A They are trade policy documents reflecting some 16 of the work that we were engaged in while I was at the 17 Department of Commerce and some pay records, as well as 18 some personnel records. 19 Q Prior to taking those documents from the Department 20 of Commerce, did you seek clearance from anyone at the 21 Department of Commerce to be able to take them? 22 A Christine Sopko is a -- I don't know exactly what 23 she's called, but she is -- she is a clerk of a sort and 24 there are numbers of them throughout the building and in 25 addition she had had at that time 28 years of experience and 131 1 essentially I conferred with her as to, a, whether or not 2 I had to clean certain things out and, b, what things were 3 appropriate to take. 4 Q Did you show the documents to her that you intended 5 to remove? 6 A No, I don't think so. I think she may have been 7 gone at the time that I left. 8 Q Then how were you able to clear it with her? 9 A I don't think a clearance was necessary. I never 10 got -- 11 Q Well, what I'm trying to get at is how did 12 Ms. Sopko assist you in deciding whether documents should be 13 removed from the Commerce Department or not when she wasn't 14 even there? 15 A Because I conformed the documents that I took to 16 her instructions as to what documents were appropriate. 17 Q When were such instructions given? 18 A It would have been within a couple of weeks of my 19 leaving. 20 Q Before or after? 21 A Excuse me? 22 Q Did you get those instructions before or after you 23 left? 24 A Before or after I left? 25 Q Yes. 132 1 A Before I left. 2 Q And how did you seek those instructions? 3 A I spoke with Ms. Sopko. 4 Q And what did you tell her? 5 A Basically, I told her that I was leaving and I 6 said what do I need to do with my files. And she said 7 essentially document retention -- I don't remember her exact 8 words, but she said document retention within the office will 9 take care of many documents; to the extent that there were 10 any documents that I wanted and there were copies of those 11 documents, it was appropriate to take some. And she assumed 12 that I would take my own personnel records and the like. 13 Q So she said as long as there were extra copies, you 14 could take them with you? 15 A Take certain documents with me because they were 16 documents all from the chronology files. 17 Q You kept chronology files of everything that you 18 generated at the Commerce Department? 19 A Ms. Sopko did, yes. 20 Q Yes. And what types of documents were in the 21 chron files? 22 A Documents that we would have sent interagency, 23 documents that we would have sent to foreign governments, 24 documents that we would have correspondence to constituents, 25 correspondence -- documents that we generated for the 133 1 purposes of implementing our responsibilities. 2 Q Tell me how it came to be that Ms. Sopko would 3 keep those documents. Would you dictate to her various 4 correspondence and she would then type it up? How would 5 that work? And that would go into the chron file with a 6 copy? Just tell me how the procedure works. 7 A Well, the procedure existed long before I got 8 there, so I didn't establish it, but the procedure 9 essentially was any document that was generated out of the 10 Office of the Secretary, not just documents generated by me, 11 were kept or should have been kept somewhere in the chron 12 file. 13 Q So Ms. Sopko had the responsibility of keeping all 14 documents generated by the Office of the Secretary? 15 A Deputy assistant secretary, six levels down. 16 Q Which was you. 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you were in charge of financial and insurance 19 services? 20 A I was in charge of services generally, which 21 included financial services, telecommunications services, 22 many other services, including insurance. 23 Q Insurance and banking? 24 A Banking. 25 Q Law firm services? 134 1 A Yes. Yes. To some extent. 2 Q Professional type services. 3 A Professional services. Yes. 4 Q Did you play any role from time to time in the 5 negotiations over services with the European Union? 6 A European Union? No. 7 Q No? You handled Asia and Africa? 8 A No. No. I handled -- I had worldwide 9 responsibility, but our office wasn't negotiating with the 10 European Union at that time. 11 Q Did you provide any advice to the U.S. Trade 12 Representative over those issues? 13 A Yes, we did. 14 Q In fact, you led a trade mission to China with 15 regard to insurance at one point, didn't you? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q When did that trade mission occur? 18 A That trade mission occurred, I think, in 1995. 19 Q Now, the chron files that Ms. Sopko kept, where 20 were they stored? 21 A There were many filing cabinets within the office. 22 There were some files sitting around her desk, there were 23 some files in front of her desk, near the door, then there 24 were more substantial files behind Mary Michael's desk. So 25 they were within -- basically within her -- the area where 135 1 she and Ms. Michael sat. 2 Q Now, documents that were generated at the Commerce 3 Department in your sector were filed in the chron file. 4 A Yes. I mean, there were other -- my office was -- 5 my responsibility was large and there were several other 6 offices that kept files as well. 7 Q Okay. But Ms. Sopko told you that you could have 8 copies of anything in the chron file and leave with those? 9 A Yes, as long as it wasn't the only copy. In 10 other words, it wouldn't have been a document from the chron 11 file, it would have been a document that would have been 12 reflected in the chron file, but they were documents that we 13 generated. 14 Q Now, some of the documents in the chron files were 15 communications with companies that wanted to go or actually 16 went on trade missions, correct? 17 A To the extent those documents were ever generated, 18 they should have been in the chron file. Yes. 19 Q And there was correspondence in the chron files not 20 just for companies that went on trade missions but those who 21 were not selected to go on trade missions. 22 A I can't specifically say that such documents 23 existed, but to the extent that we received documents, they 24 wouldn't necessarily have gone into the chron file. They 25 might have gone into an industry file. 136 1 Q Now, some of the correspondence from the 2 participants on trade missions contained information about 3 how they did business, correct? 4 A I can't -- 5 Q Just generally speaking. 6 A How they did business? It might have stated 7 what -- you know, what their business was. 8 Q Right. And sometimes they would get more specific 9 so they could give you an idea of what they intended to try 10 to do business on on trade missions. 11 A I don't have a specific recollection of such 12 correspondence. It's entirely possible, but that doesn't 13 ring a bell to me. 14 Q Some of the documents in the chron files contained 15 business proprietary information, correct? 16 A I don't know. I don't know. I don't specifically 17 recall any document sent. 18 Q Ms. Sopko didn't give you any instructions 19 as to whether you could take business proprietary 20 information or not when you left the Department of 21 Commerce, did she? 22 A She didn't, but I probably would have known 23 that, a, that that wasn't something I was interested in 24 and, b, that that wasn't appropriate. 25 Q Was there anything in writing that you got from 137 1 Ms. Sopko giving you instructions on what you could take and 2 what you couldn't from the chron files? 3 A I don't recall. I don't recall that there was. 4 Q So you made the decision on your own based upon the 5 general advice that you could take documents as long as you 6 left the originals behind. 7 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What's the grounds of the 9 objection? Can you state it concisely? 10 MR. WEBSTER: It didn't accurately reflect what the 11 witness testified. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's a new question. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you understand the question, 14 Mr. Kearney? 15 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I do understand the 16 question. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why don't you explain to 18 Mr. Klayman what you don't understand about it and he'll try 19 to rephrase it and help you. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, let me -- let me try and 21 correct it with my answer. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sure. 23 THE WITNESS: My recollection is that I had a 24 general concern as whether or not there were things 25 that I needed to clean out as a result of my leaving. 138 1 Secondarily, I wanted to know -- and very 2 specifically I was interested in taking some of the position 3 papers on market access and on, you know, generic trade 4 policy documents and that was my primary interest. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Well, but that wasn't my question. My question 7 was in terms of Ms. Sopko's advice to you, it was simply 8 that as long as you left the original behind you could take 9 a copy, correct? 10 A No. That wasn't her statement. Her statement was 11 that not whether or not I left an original, as long as any 12 document I took wasn't the only copy. 13 Q Now, in terms of some of the policies of the 14 Department of Commerce, based on your experience in 15 working there, there are some policies that are not public, 16 correct? 17 A I don't know. I don't know. I would imagine that 18 almost any policy is accessible to the public. 19 Q In fact, there are some policies that deal with how 20 classified information is handled, correct? 21 A Yes. I would imagine there are. 22 Q And that's not public, is it? 23 A Well, when you say public, no, it is not public in 24 the first instance, but it may be accessible. The classified 25 information itself isn't accessible. 139 1 Q Right. So aside from coming out of the chron 2 files, did you take documents when you left from any other 3 kinds of files? 4 A No. Not that I recall. I told you what I took. 5 I took some documents relating to general trade policy and 6 project finance and then I took my own personnel documents 7 reflecting my -- you know, my evaluations and the like and 8 my -- and I took some pay information. 9 Beyond that, I just took miscellaneous things 10 with Ms. Sopko herself provided for me, cards, birthday 11 cards, that type of thing. 12 Q Did you take any documents dealing with the policy 13 on encryption software? 14 A I'm not sure I ever -- no. No. I did not. 15 Q Anything dealing with satellites? 16 A No. 17 Q Telecommunications? 18 A No. Not that I recall. 19 Q Insurance services? 20 A Insurance services? I took documents that related 21 to market access in the insurance industry and to the 22 development of world markets in the insurance industry in 23 particular. 24 Q Now, without asking about any particular piece of 25 information, isn't it true that classified materials that you 140 1 reviewed sometimes dealt with those general issues? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 THE WITNESS: Dealt with what general issues? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Market access. 7 A The classified information may or may not have 8 dealt with a whole number of issues. 9 Q Some of it dealt with market access, did it not? 10 A Specifically speaking, I don't recall it dealing 11 with market access per se and I can't go beyond that. 12 Q You did see intelligence reports when you were at 13 the Commerce Department, did you not? 14 A We went over that. Yes. 15 Q Okay. And some of that intelligence reporting did 16 deal with market access, did it not? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, Your Honor. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: That's just generic. 19 MS. BRASWELL: No. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I'm a little concerned about 21 that, Mr. Klayman, because that does seem to disclose a 22 document which Mr. Kearney cannot disclose as a matter of 23 law. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking generically. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, but the point is that he 141 1 would necessarily disclose that the document contained that 2 information. Wouldn't that run the risk of his disclosing 3 something he's not supposed to? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Except for the fact that that's 5 the reason for intelligence reports at the Commerce 6 Department. I mean, the Commerce Department does deal with 7 market access generally, that's the reason for the Commerce 8 Department. It's as broad as the whole reason for the entire 9 department. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, but I fear that if 11 Mr. Kearney were asked any more questions as to what these 12 intelligence reports dealt with, he will necessarily disclose 13 something he's not supposed to disclose. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I wasn't going to go beyond that 15 question, but -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's stop there, if we can, then. 17 THE WITNESS: Let me just -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, I would prefer you to 19 stop there. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Don't answer. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q You did have intelligence reports in your office 24 from time to time, did you not? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered about 142 1 three times. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: This is different than the prior 3 question. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Then, if so, it's very slightly 5 different. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's slightly different. The other 7 one was classified material -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, let's go on. 9 All right. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Classified material may not be 11 intelligence reports. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. Okay. 13 With that clarification, do you understand the 14 question? 15 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the distinction. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The point being, is there a 17 difference from the earlier question? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't understand the 19 distinction, but, as I said before, from time to time, I 20 did receive intelligence material. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q When Mr. Trie and Mr. Wu visited your office, did 23 you take any special precautions to clear out the office of 24 any classified materia? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 143 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 2 THE WITNESS: I didn't take any special precautions 3 because there were no intelligence materials in my office. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q How do you know that? 6 A The intelligence material that I would have used 7 would have been used while I was there. If I was going to be 8 in a meeting with anyone else, I would not have -- those 9 materials would have gone back to Ms. Sopko. 10 Q Did you instruct Ms. Sopko to that effect, that if 11 I'm going to have a meeting, please be sure you empty my 12 office of any classified materials? Did you ever tell her 13 that? 14 A I didn't have to tell Ms. Sopko that. She knew 15 that already. She knew the sensitivities of classified 16 material. 17 Q So you never told her that? 18 A She may have told me that. 19 Q No, I asked you, did you ever tell her that? Yes 20 or no. 21 A It may have been communicated between the two of 22 us. 23 Q Does that mean you did or you didn't? 24 A I'm saying that it may have. 25 Q Well, who was communicating, you or her? 144 1 MR. WEBSTER: I object. 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 3 MR. WEBSTER: Your Honor -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's a relevant question, 5 Your Honor. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, if two people have a 7 conversation, then it appears both of them are communicating 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Judge Wright recently referenced 9 various matters in different directions. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You never told Ms. Sopko to clear out your office 13 of classified materials before meetings, did you? 14 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Specifically -- I'm just trying to 16 pinpoint it, Your Honor. 17 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you remember? 19 THE WITNESS: I cleared out my office of any 20 classified material before I met with anyone. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q But you previously testified this morning you 23 couldn't remember any specific meeting with Mr. Trie or 24 Mr. Ng Lap Seng in your office, correct? 25 A Yours was a general question about whether or not 145 1 I cleared out classified materials before any meetings in my 2 office. 3 Q Well, I just asked you that question. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection, to the extent he's 5 being -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You don't know for a fact, do you, that if 9 a meeting occurred in your office with Mr. Trie and 10 Mr. Ng Lap Seng that you did clear out classified materials 11 in advance? 12 A As close as factually as possible, I know that 13 I did not have meetings in my office with anyone in which 14 there was classified material. 15 Q How much material did you remove from the Commerce 16 Department just in terms of size? Can you show us? If you 17 stacked it up? 18 A If I stacked it up, it would be maybe this -- not 19 even that tall -- that tall. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Could counsel agree how much that 21 is? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q How many inches? 24 A Maybe four inches. 25 Q Did you tell -- you immediately went from the 146 1 Commerce Department to LeBoeuf Lamb, correct? 2 A Mm-hmm. That's correct. 3 Q Did you tell anybody at LeBoeuf Lamb that you were 4 taking Commerce Department documents to their firm? 5 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. There is certainly no 6 testimony that these were documents belonging to the Commerce 7 Department. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, I think you have be more 9 careful, Mr. Klayman. 10 MR. WEBSTER: Personnel files -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you tell anybody at LeBoeuf 12 Lamb that you were bringing to firm copies of documents that 13 you had taken from the Department of Commerce? 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You took these documents because you thought they 17 might be useful to you in your new job at LeBoeuf Lamb, 18 right? 19 A No. It probably was more vain than that. I took 20 them because they reflected something that we had been 21 engaged in with industry and in other markets where we were 22 trying to develop a strong commercial presence. 23 Q And these were documents which were useful to you 24 in planning for trade missions, correct? In part. 25 A No, not particularly. 147 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to ask that these 2 be produced in camera with the other materials, these 3 documents. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll hear Ms. Braswell and counsel 5 about that at the conclusion of the deposition. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would someone make a note of that? 8 And we'll return to the issue. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you keep a list of the documents you took from 11 the Commerce Department? 12 A No, I did not. 13 Q And just to close this avenue here, no one except 14 yourself knows exactly what you took from the Commerce 15 Department? 16 A Specifically, I don't think so. No. 17 Q Did you ever show anybody? 18 A No. I had no occasion to. 19 Q And, specifically, where did you store -- 20 MR. WEBSTER: Apart from counsel. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Where did you store them at LeBoeuf Lamb? 23 A Actually, no. Let me take back that earlier 24 answer. I did produce some of them in connection with my 25 interview on the Hill. 148 1 Q And what was your interview on the Hill about? 2 A In connection with the -- with the -- I think it 3 was the Senate's look into -- 4 Q Campaign finance -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- and China-gate? 7 A Well, they didn't call it China-gate. Campaign 8 finance. 9 Q Okay. It dealt with issues involving China? 10 A Dealt with issues involving, I think, a wide area 11 of issues. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What is the specific name of 13 the Senate committee, Mr. Kearney, for the purpose of the 14 record? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: The Senate Governmental Affairs 16 Committee. 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah. The Senate Government Affairs. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q And during that interview, they did ask you about 20 in part your role in trade missions? 21 A Yes. My role in helping to develop trade missions. 22 Q And specifically China was one of them? 23 A I think there were questions about China, yes. 24 Q You produced those documents with regard to an 25 informal request or a subpoena? 149 1 A Subpoena. 2 Q When there were incoming documents to your office, 3 you did get correspondence from time to time, did you not, 4 from the Democratic National Committee in your office. 5 A Not that I recall. As I have mentioned before, 6 I did not have communication with the Democratic National 7 Committee. 8 I had conversations from time to time with 9 individuals whom I knew at the Democratic National Committee, 10 but whom I knew before they were there. 11 Q During those conversations, did you ever discuss 12 Department of Commerce business? 13 A No, not particularly. That wouldn't have been the 14 purpose of the call. 15 Q Who did you talk with at the DNC? 16 A From time to time, I would see Mr. Carol Willis 17 from Arkansas, whom I had known for years and who knew my 18 family for years. Mr. Darren Peters, who also briefly worked 19 at the Commerce Department. And there was another young man 20 there by the name of Darren and I don't remember his last 21 name, but he also was from Arkansas. 22 Q Did you ever talk to any fundraisers from the DNC 23 while you were at the Commerce Department? 24 A I may have talked to them without necessarily 25 knowing they were fundraisers. For instance -- 150 1 Q How could that happen? 2 A You might be an attorney and I not know it. In 3 other words, I would talk to you and not necessarily know 4 other things about you. 5 Q Well, what leads you to believe that you may have 6 talked to some fundraisers at the DNC? 7 A Because I assume there were fundraisers there. 8 Q So when people called you from the -- did people 9 call you from the DNC from time to time? 10 A Not necessarily from the DNC. They might call 11 me -- or we might see each other in social gatherings. 12 These were friends of mine, these were people I had known. 13 Q Well, what friends of yours are fundraisers at the 14 DNC? 15 A I frankly don't know specifically because I never 16 asked specifically what their job responsibilities were. 17 Q You never asked your friends what they do 18 professionally? 19 A I knew basically they were at the DNC. 20 Q That's all you knew? 21 A That's basically what I knew. 22 Q Any friends other than the ones you've just 23 mentioned? 24 A Friends? No. I mean, you've mentioned a couple of 25 other people who are the DNC whom I interacted with from time 151 1 to time, but not frequently and didn't know them to talk with 2 them over the phone. You've mentioned Mr. McAuliffe and 3 Mr. Mercer. I just met those gentlemen casually. 4 Q What did Darren Peters do at the Commerce 5 Department? 6 A At the Commerce Department, he was in the Minority 7 Business Development Center. 8 Q And you worked with him? 9 A Not on Commerce business, no. I knew him. I knew 10 him before he came to the Commerce Department. 11 Q How did you know him? 12 A Oh, I met him in Arkansas. 13 Q Part of Mr. Peters' duties and responsibilities was 14 to identify minority-owned businesses who might be able to go 15 on trade missions, correct? 16 A That is not my understanding of Mr. Peters' job. 17 Q What was your understanding of his job? 18 A I wasn't specifically sure of his job, but the 19 Minority Business Development Center's job was not to 20 identify minority participants on trade missions. It was 21 to assist domestic minority businesses. 22 Q Was it limited just to assisting them for domestic 23 matters or could they also assist them for international 24 matters? 25 A It was expanded in my last year or so to try and 152 1 assist them in their international efforts, but that was 2 never really its primary focus. 3 Q Now, when -- I guess what you're telling me is that 4 there may have been documents that get sent by the DNC to 5 your office. Excuse the grammar. 6 A No, that is not what I'm telling you, actually. 7 What I'm telling you is that I don't -- 8 Q But -- I'm sorry, go on. 9 A What I'm telling you is that I don't recall any DNC 10 correspondence coming to me in my office. 11 Q Do you recall any DNC correspondence or 12 documentation coming to anyone within your supervisory power? 13 A Not that I recall. Not that I recall. 14 Q So the answer is no? 15 A The answer is I don't recall. 16 Q Well, what I'm trying to get at is do you think not 17 or you just don't remember right now? 18 A I'm telling you I don't recall any such 19 correspondence coming in to Service Industries and Finance 20 offices. 21 Q From the DNC. 22 A From the DNC, as DNC correspondence. There was 23 one document sent to me by Carol Willis, who happened to be 24 at the DNC, recommending that I, I think, go to Tennessee or 25 somewhere to talk to some church or something. 153 1 Q Do you remember seeing anything coming in from the 2 DNC concerning the Southern Baptist Convention? 3 A Southern Baptist -- that doesn't ring a bell to me. 4 Q Do you remember any documents coming in that 5 bore at the top the acronym DNC or Democratic National 6 Committee? 7 A The only document that I can recall that may or 8 may not have had that on it was the one letter from Carol 9 Willis who, you know, mistakenly thought that I could be 10 helpful to -- I think it was a black church and I couldn't be 11 helpful. 12 Q Do you remember any documents coming in to the 13 various offices that you supervised as deputy assistant 14 secretary from the White House? 15 A I would have received documents from the White 16 House from time to time informing of -- for instance, I got 17 an invitation at one point -- I don't remember if it was a 18 document that came in to my office or not -- to attend a 19 state luncheon for the president of Mexico, I think. And 20 then I received from time to time invitations to participate 21 in White House conferences on particular issues. In one 22 case, it was a White House conference on NAFTA, I think. So, 23 I mean, I recall generally. 24 Q So you only remember two documents from White 25 House? 154 1 A That's basically what I recall. That's what 2 I recall right now. 3 Q Did you ever talk to Harold Ickes about trade 4 missions? 5 A No. I never met Mr. Ickes. 6 Q Did you ever talk to him? 7 A No. Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q Did you ever talk to Alexis Herman about trade 9 missions? 10 A No. Not that I recall. 11 Q You are aware that she set up briefing sessions for 12 participants on trade missions that took place at the White 13 House before they went overseas? 14 A I am definitely not aware of that. 15 Q Did you ever attend such a briefing session? 16 A I'm not aware of those briefing sessions. 17 Q Have you ever met Hillary Clinton? 18 A Yes, I have. 19 Q When did you meet her? 20 A The first time I met her was I think the first time 21 I met the governor, 1992. 22 Q Okay. Have you ever met -- how many times have you 23 met Mrs. Clinton since then? Or been in the presence of her? 24 A Precious few. Not many. 25 Q Well, roughly speaking. 155 1 A I'd say maybe six. 2 Q Were you ever in her presence at the White House? 3 A In her presence at the White House? The state 4 dinner that I just mentioned to you, she was there, 5 obviously, and I was there with my wife. 6 Q Did you ever have any telephone conversations with 7 Mrs. Clinton? 8 A No. 9 Q Or where others including her were participating? 10 A No. No. 11 Q Did you ever discuss anything with regard to trade 12 missions with Mrs. Clinton? 13 A Never. 14 Q Have you ever communicated in any way, orally in 15 writing, with Nolanda Hill? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know of her? 18 A I know of her only through media and I think you 19 may have asked me about her at my first deposition. I've 20 never met her. 21 Q In your secretary's deposition, Ms. Sopko, she 22 testifies to receiving calls from Ms. Hill. Does that 23 refresh your recollection? 24 A It definitely doesn't refresh my recollection. 25 Q Did you ever have any conversations or communicate 156 1 in any way with Leon Panetta? 2 A No. 3 Q John Podesta? 4 A No. 5 Q With anyone in the Office of Public Liaison in the 6 White House? 7 A Anyone in the Office of Public Liaison? I'm not 8 sure who works in the Office of Public Liaison. 9 Q Well, Alexis Herman used to run it. 10 A Oh. Okay. Well, I -- I have met her. I've met 11 Ms. Herman. 12 Q Did you ever discuss trade missions with James 13 Hackney? 14 A With Jim Hackney? 15 Q Yes. 16 A Jim Hackney ran lots of discussions about trade 17 missions within our department. 18 Q Did Mr. Hackney ever recommend to you companies and 19 individuals to participate on trade missions? 20 A Recommend to me? 21 Q Yes. 22 A It would have been the exact opposite. 23 Q Or did he ever discuss it with you? 24 A With me in particular? Probably not, but he 25 discussed it as he was director, in many instances, of trade 157 1 mission development teams. 2 Q You knew Melissa Moss, did you not? 3 A Of course. 4 Q And she worked in the Office of Business Liaison, 5 correct? 6 A Yes, she did. 7 Q And you knew Graham Whatley, he worked under you, 8 correct? 9 A Yes, that's correct. 10 Q Did Mr. Whatley ever show you documents to be 11 produced to Judicial Watch with regard to its FOIA request? 12 A I don't specifically recall. Certainly I did 13 not see in its congregation every document that Mr. Whatley 14 had and Ms. Sopko had assembled for production. 15 So, I do recall that at some point he and I 16 discussed documents about which there were questions as to 17 whether or not they were producible, I think, and then he 18 sent those documents on to counsel. 19 Q He showed you the documents that he had questions 20 that were not producible? He showed you each of those 21 documents? 22 A No, I don't recall that he showed me each of the 23 documents. I remember he and I had a conversation about some 24 documents that he had questions about. 25 Q In other words, did he come to you and say here are 158 1 the documents that I have questions whether or not they 2 should be produced, let's go through them and decide whether 3 we can recommend production or not? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: That is not my recollection. I think 7 more generically he might have come to me and said, you know, 8 I have some documents that, you know, I need someone to opine 9 on whether or not they're producible. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And did you say that person's me because I'm your 12 supervisor? 13 A No. Because I wasn't acting as a lawyer, I was 14 acting as a deputy assistant secretary. 15 Q Did Mr. Whatley describe to you what those 16 documents were that he had questions about? 17 A We probably discussed them at the time and I don't 18 recall which documents. 19 Q Was one of those documents a donor list? 20 A No. Not that I recall. 21 Q Was one of those documents a minority donor list? 22 A No. Definitely not that I recall. 23 Q Were some of those documents recommendations on 24 who to take on the trips from the Democratic National 25 Committee? 159 1 A No. I never saw any such document. So my 2 recollection is that he didn't discuss those documents and, 3 in any event, I never saw such documents. 4 Q Did some of those documents reflect communications 5 between the Democratic National Committee and the Commerce 6 Department concerning donors to the Democratic Party? 7 A I have no recollection of any such document. 8 Q You don't remember one way or the other? 9 A My memory is the answer to that is no. 10 Q Did some of those documents reflect the names 11 of trade mission participants who had given money to the 12 Democratic Party or Clinton-Gore campaign? 13 A That's a two-part question. They may have 14 reflected names of people who had in fact given money to the 15 Democratic Party, but those documents didn't reflect that. 16 So I don't know. 17 I mean, the answer is no, we did not discuss 18 particular companies or individuals who had given money to 19 anyone. 20 Q Well, how do you know the companies may have given 21 money to the DNC? 22 A No, no, no. I'm telling -- the factual response to 23 your answer is that companies may or may not have given money 24 to the DNC, but that wasn't reflected in the documents. 25 That's the point. 160 1 Q Did you ever ask anyone to check to see if a 2 particular potential trade mission participant had given 3 money to a political candidate or party? 4 A No. Not to my recollection. 5 Q Did you ever receive requests from Republicans to 6 take some of their donors on trade trips? 7 A I assume I did. Yes. They didn't identify 8 themselves as Republicans, though. 9 Q Who did you get the requests from? 10 A What do you mean? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, may I ask you a 12 question? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Generically, you mean Republicans? 15 He wouldn't know if the person he was speaking 16 to was a Republican. Did you mean by your question persons 17 who were professional politicians and of the Republican 18 Party? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Did you understand that, 21 Mr. Kearney? 22 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand that. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: When he was using the word 24 Republican, he meant those people who are in politics for a 25 living -- 161 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- as opposed to people who are 3 registered Republicans and make their living driving milk 4 trucks. Is that right? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I guess. Yeah. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall any Republicans or 8 Democrats specifically recommending donors be taken on -- 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you ever receive any correspondence from the 11 Republican National Committee when you were at the Commerce 12 Department? 13 A Not that I recall. 14 Q Any documentation from the Republican National 15 Committee? 16 A Not that I recall. No. 17 Q Any documentation or oral requests from what the 18 magistrate judge was alluding to, Republican politicians or 19 interests, to take a particular individual or company on a 20 trade trip? 21 A Not that I specifically recall. 22 Q So it may have occurred? 23 A The documents would reflect it, I assume, if it 24 occurred. 25 Q You are aware that many of the companies that went 162 1 on trade trips gave contributions both to the Democratic and 2 Republican Parties, are you not? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: When you say I'm aware, I can -- 6 I can believe it if you tell me they did, but I wasn't aware 7 because they told me. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Well, were you aware at the time they went on the 10 trade trips that they were contributors to both political 11 parties? 12 A Not that I recall. 13 Q You went on the first trade trip to China in the 14 fall of '94, we established that this morning. Going on that 15 trip, you are aware that Loral Corporation was represented, 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And in fact, did you play any role in selecting 19 Bernard Schwartz of Loral to go on that trip? 20 A I didn't play a role in selecting anyone to go on 21 the trip, but, no, I did not recommend -- I didn't know of 22 Loral. 23 Q Do you know who did play a role in selecting him? 24 A Don't recall. It would have been a confluence of 25 people looking at who was trying to do things in China. 163 1 Q Which people? 2 A Oh, the people who were involved in developing the 3 trade mission. That would have been Mr. Hackney, Ms. Moss, 4 Ms. Fitz-Pagoda, Ms. Schuker, at the top. 5 Q And, of course, Secretary Brown. 6 A Secretary Brown was obviously the ultimate decision 7 maker. 8 Q Did you ever see him check off names of companies 9 to take on trade trips? 10 A No, not that I recall. 11 Q Did you ever -- did you know a Mr. David Rothkopf? 12 A Yes. I worked with Mr. Rothkopf. 13 Q And have you ever read his deposition testimony? 14 A No, I've never seen it. 15 Q He testified that he saw Secretary Brown checking 16 off names of people to take on the trade trips in Secretary 17 Brown's office. 18 A Okay. 19 Q Did you ever see that? 20 A I don't recall seeing that ever. 21 Q Did Mr. Rothkopf ever tell you or anyone else that 22 Secretary Brown was going to make the final decision? 23 A I think we all knew that Secretary Brown was going 24 to make the final decision on all trade missions as to who 25 and would not go. 164 1 Q Were there any criteria that you knew of to 2 determine in writing who to select and who to reject? 3 A In writing? I think guidelines were developed over 4 time as to how -- what the process was going to be, but 5 I don't recall the specifics of it. 6 Q But those guidelines were not in effect at the time 7 of the China trip in the fall of '94? 8 A I don't recall that to be the fact. 9 Q So they weren't in effect to the best of your 10 knowledge? 11 A No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying they may have 12 been in effect, to the best of my knowledge -- 13 Q Did you ever see them? 14 A -- but I don't recall. To the extent that they 15 were developed, I probably saw them at some point. 16 Q No, I just asked whether you saw them, not a double 17 hypothetical. Did you ever actually see them? 18 A But you're asking for a more specific memory than 19 I have right now. 20 Q All right. That's all I'm trying to find out. 21 A And I -- 22 Q You never -- you don't remember seeing them. 23 A I have a memory of seeing some guidelines at some 24 point. 25 Q But not as early as the trade trip to China in the 165 1 fall of '94. 2 A I honestly can't say that it was that early or not. 3 MR. WEBSTER: Could we just have a clarification 4 whether you're referring to fall of '94 being the one mission 5 that took place from October 27th through early September? 6 THE WITNESS: August 27th. 7 MS. BRASWELL: August. 8 MR. WEBSTER: August. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm talking about the China trip for 10 purposes of these questions. 11 MR. WEBSTER: That is not in the fall. The fall 12 starts on the 21st of September, so I'm confused as to 13 whether you're referring to another mission. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: That's what I'm referring to as the 15 fall. 16 MR. WEBSTER: Okay. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q There was only one trade trip to China during the 19 latter period of 1994, correct? 20 A I have a recollection of their being a second 21 secretarial trip to Asia and possibly to China. 22 Q That was in 1995. 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. Now, if a document came in from the outside, 25 such as from the DNC or the White House, where would 166 1 Ms. Sopko have stored it, given her filing system? 2 A Probably in a correspondence file, separate -- 3 which was separate from a chron file. And it might have 4 gone -- as opposed to a correspondence file, it may have gone 5 to a specific industry file. It just depended on where 6 the -- 7 Q I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. 8 A No, go ahead. 9 Q So she would have a file -- say correspondence was 10 coming in from the DNC. 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q She would have a file labelled DNC? 13 MR. WEBSTER: I would object -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. Please. Don't interject on 15 this. 16 MR. WEBSTER: I object. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I have an instruction 18 here? It's a simple question. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, step out. 20 (The witness was excused.) 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Your objection? Your objection? 22 Your objection, Mr. Webster? 23 MR. WEBSTER: My objection is that he is now asking 24 a whole bunch of questions as if there were some truth to the 25 matter, that there were documents coming in from DNC. 167 1 We've had extensive testimony that there are no 2 such documents, so I think it's totally unfair to this 3 witness, to the record, to whatever impression he's trying to 4 create to the viewing public of this deposition, to create 5 hypotheticals that are directly contradicted by the testimony 6 of this witness. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, first of all, Your Honor, the 8 witness is not unsophisticated. This is a high powered 9 lawyer, a partner of LeBoeuf Lamb. Secondly, I'm just using 10 that by way of example to say if you get a document from 11 Larry Klayman of the DNC, do you make up a file for it. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Where does it go? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. Where does it go. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: And when you raise a question like 16 that, it's telling Mr. -- 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But I interrupted him 18 before that could happen, so we're okay. 19 Would you ask the witness to come back in? 20 (The witness returned.) 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you, Mr. Klayman. Please 22 continue. 23 If the reporter will read back the last question? 24 THE COURT REPORTER: One moment, please. 25 (The record was read back by the court reporter.) 168 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 2 Mr. Kearney, with the understanding -- 3 THE COURT REPORTER: One moment, please, sir. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, Your Honor. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: With the understanding that the 7 question is predicated on a hypothesis -- 8 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- which you have to neither 10 accept nor deny, if a document came in under those 11 circumstances, do you know where it would be filed? 12 THE WITNESS: Probably a correspondence file. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: A correspondence file. Now, 14 what you were also indicating to us was would there 15 independently of correspondence files subject files? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. Industry files. That question 17 was so hypothetical so that I don't have an analog for it, 18 but files that I know did come in and that we did normally 19 file in one way -- letters that did come in that we did file 20 one way or the other, I recall that we had industry files. 21 For instance, if insurance companies or whomever, bankers, 22 wrote in, they may go in the correspondence file or they may 23 go in the insurance industry file. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The correspondence file indicates 25 the receipt of correspondence from the outside? 169 1 THE WITNESS: Not being responsible for keeping 2 these files myself, I have to be frank with you -- 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand that. 4 THE WITNESS: I -- you know -- 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q What I'm getting at is that if a document comes in, 7 say it comes in from Judicial Watch. 8 A Mm-hmm. 9 Q Ms. Sopko would -- and say there was a regular 10 course of them coming in from Judicial Watch, she would 11 have had a Judicial Watch file, correct? With the 12 correspondence. 13 A I can't say correct to that. I mean, she -- 14 she had a filing system which I'm only unfortunately guessing 15 at here. It wasn't my filing system, it was hers. 16 Q Well, surely you must have reviewed her files from 17 time to time. 18 A I did not. 19 Q As her supervisor. 20 A No. I was not reviewing her files from time to 21 time. 22 Q But how would she have labelled the document in a 23 correspondence file to know where to find it based on your 24 experience of working with her? 25 A My experience in working with her was that she 170 1 found documents that I needed her to find and so the filing 2 system that she used was apparently quite adequate. 3 Q You saw a good deal of shredding in your 4 department, didn't you? Shredding of documents? 5 A No. I did not. 6 Q You did see documents being shredded from time to 7 time, correct? 8 A I think time to time is too expansive. In fact, 9 I'm not sure I ever saw documents shredded. I think I heard 10 the document shredder a few times while Ms. Sopko was 11 shredding documents. 12 Q Do you know what she was shredding? 13 A No, I do not know. 14 Q Did you ever tell her to shred anything? 15 A I never asked her to shred anything that I recall. 16 Q Do you know of anyone else who asked her to shred 17 anything? 18 A I do not know of anyone who asked her to shred 19 anything. 20 Q You know what shred means, right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Are you aware of her shredding documents on a 23 frequent basis? 24 A I'm not aware or unaware. As I told you, she's a 25 document retention clerk and so she would have known on what 171 1 schedule herself to either -- to dispose of documents. 2 Q Where was the shredder located in your suite of 3 offices? 4 A Behind Mary Michael's desk. 5 Q Was there more than one shredder? 6 A In our suite of offices, I don't know. I only knew 7 of the one. 8 Q The shredder broke from time to time? 9 A I have no idea. I don't recall that. 10 Q Did anyone ever come to you and say the shredder is 11 broken, we need to get it fixed? 12 A No. But they wouldn't necessarily have come to me 13 for that. 14 Q Who would they go to? 15 A They would have probably called maintenance. 16 Q Do you know how to use a shredder? 17 A I don't know if I know how to use a shredder. 18 I don't recall ever using that one. 19 Q In your whole life, have you ever shredded a 20 document? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: In my whole life? I'm 24 technologically impaired, I will tell you that, so it's 25 not something that I would normally -- but I don't recall 172 1 shredding any documents. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: That's the only impairment you suffer 3 from. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 6 MR. WEBSTER: And I object to that, too. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I think we eliminated the 9 others. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know Robert Atkins? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q How do you know Robert Atkins? 14 A He was one of my third level, third level down from 15 me, employees. Very briefly. 16 Q Who was at the second -- first and second level 17 before you got to Mr. Atkins? 18 A I think at the first level above Mr. Atkins, there 19 was -- he wasn't a director, I've forgotten exactly what his 20 title was, but it was Wray Candilis, and that's W-r-a-y 21 Candilis. 22 Q And what did Mr. Candilis do? 23 A Well, he worked in the Office of Services, so he 24 worked on particular sectors, but I believe that he was the 25 immediate supervisor of Mr. Atkins. 173 1 Q And what did Mr. Atkins do? 2 A Mr. Atkins was there for a very brief -- well, he 3 was there when I arrived, but he left before a year was up, 4 by the time I had been there. 5 Q Okay. What did he do when he was there? 6 A I think he did a lot of checking of documents, 7 maybe some proofreading. I think he sent out correspondence 8 on seminars. I think he was part of the team that developed 9 a services industry brochure for us. 10 Q And he participated in gathering of the documents 11 to produce with regard to Judicial Watch's FOIA request? 12 A My recollection is that Mr. Atkins -- what was the 13 date of your FOIA request? 14 Q September and October of 1994. 15 A No. Mr. Atkins had already retired by that time. 16 Q Did he assist Ms. Sopko in document retention? 17 A I don't know that one way or the other. 18 Q Ms. Sopko never told you that? 19 A No. 20 Q You never assigned Mr. Atkins to participate in 21 document retention or destruction? 22 A No. You mean me personally? 23 Q Yes. 24 A No. 25 Q You don't know of anybody else who did? 174 1 A I am not aware that anyone -- I am not aware that 2 that was Mr. Atkins' job. 3 Q Did you ever instruct Mr. Atkins to shred 4 documents? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 7 A I don't know of anyone who did. I was never aware 8 that anyone informed Mr. Atkins -- 9 Q Okay. You worked with Mr. Atkins for about a year? 10 A Less than a year. 11 Q Okay. Do you have any reason to believe he's 12 dishonest? 13 A I'm not sure of that. 14 Q Well, give me any reasonable basis to believe that 15 he's not honest. 16 A No, I don't have a basis one way or the other to 17 know of his honesty. 18 Q Did you ever hear any complaints about his honesty 19 or lack thereof? 20 A Can I have a moment with -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: No, no. I'd like to get an answer. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, the problem is that he's 23 being asked a question that may put him in a position of 24 impugning the integrity of another person, subject him to 25 possible civil liability for that, Mr. Klayman. 175 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me ask -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think he should have an 3 opportunity to talk to counsel. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask him a predicate question so 5 we can -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, but I am going to give him an 7 opportunity to talk to Mr. Webster. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Is there any -- 9 MR. WEBSTER: Could I just voice an objection 10 to the relevance here? 11 Since Mr. Atkins had left the office prior to the 12 time of Judicial Watch's first -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let him ask a few more 14 predicate questions -- 15 MR. WEBSTER: -- FOIA came in, it would seem to me 16 that whole period is irrelevant and his relationship -- 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor -- 18 MR. WEBSTER: -- to anybody there is irrelevant as 19 well. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let Mr. Klayman ask a few 21 predicate questions -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: It doesn't mean that at all. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Mr. Klayman, please, ask 24 your predicate question. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 176 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q The predicate question was -- and if you have a 3 problem with this, you can let us know, but did you ever 4 receive any complaints about Mr. Atkins? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. It's the same question 6 he just asked. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: No, it's a different question. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. I thought you were going 9 to ask some predicates to establish why Atkins' honesty or 10 lack of it would be relevant. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if there were no complaints, 12 then we've eliminated the whole issue. I'll be happy to seal 13 it if the answer is that he did. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, why don't we do this: 15 Mr. Kearney and Mr. Webster, why don't you go into the 16 courtroom. You seem to want to chat with Mr. Webster, why 17 don't we do that for a moment. 18 MR. WEBSTER: May I make one suggestion, 19 Your Honor? Could we limit this to the time that -- 20 Could you put your hand down so I can see the 21 judge? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. I can't see him. 23 MR. WEBSTER: Thank you. 24 The time that Mr. Atkins was working at the 25 department? 177 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, you consult 2 with your client and then we'll talk about this. I'm 3 going to take a proffer from Mr. Klayman off the record 4 about this. 5 Why don't you have a moment, Mr. Kearney -- 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Are we off the record? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, no, we're not going to go 8 off the record. They're going to chat -- 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask that Ms. Braswell stay 10 here? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why is it your concern, 12 Ms. Braswell? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I asked him if he would 14 like to discuss it with me and he said yes. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Oh, do you wish to discuss it -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 17 MS. BRASWELL: And so therefore -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Let me ask for this -- can I 19 ask for this -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm sorry, I did not know that he 21 had made that request of you. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I just ask Mr. Kearney to be out 23 there and discuss this with counsel? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, the problem, Ms. Braswell, 25 before you go out there, your presence would defeat the 178 1 attorney-client privilege. That's my concern. 2 Do you want to speak to your client confidentially, 3 Mr. Webster, before Ms. Braswell comes and enters into the 4 conversation? Her presence would be deemed a waiver of the 5 privilege. 6 MR. WEBSTER: Two issues -- 7 MS. BRASWELL: Of which privilege? 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The privilege between Mr. Kearney 9 and Mr. Webster. 10 MR. WEBSTER: Well, there are two issues here, 11 Your Honor. One is what happened when he was an employee of 12 the department, for which there is an attorney-client 13 relationship, as I understand it, and the other is what's 14 happened afterwards, so it would require that -- 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, what I think we're going to 16 do is why don't you, Mr. Webster, talk to your client and 17 then you can invite Ms. Braswell into the room if you think 18 it's appropriate. 19 MR. WEBSTER: Thank you. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That way she doesn't -- that way 21 her presence doesn't waive the privilege. We'll see in a 22 moment where we are. 23 (The witness and Mr. Webster were excused.) 24 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, will Mr. Klayman be 25 discussing the relevance of any of this testimony to this -- 179 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In a moment. I'd like to give 2 those gentlemen a moment to confer. 3 (A brief recess was taken.) 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, let's see where we are. 5 You are making inquiry about a man named Atkins. 6 And are you making this inquiry with reference to things 7 he did or did not do while he was at the Department of 8 Commerce? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. At the Department of 10 Commerce. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: At the Department of Commerce and 12 your questions are so limited? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Given the fact that 15 we have the reputation of a third party at stake, is there 16 any objection to the next portion of this record being 17 sealed? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: No objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. It will be sealed. 20 Proceed. 21 MR. WEBSTER: I would like to maintain my 22 objection, Your Honor -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Certainly. 24 MR. WEBSTER: -- to the line of questioning; one, 25 as being outside the court order; two, as not being relevant 180 1 in that Mr. Atkins was gone from the department at the time 2 the FOIA request was received. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 4 MR. WEBSTER: And, three, just on the general basis 5 that he isn't the central issue here in this case. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. The objection will 7 be overruled. 8 Madam Reporter, the next few questions will be 9 sealed until I indicate they will not. 10 You may proceed. 11 (Whereupon, at 2:52, the deposition of JUDE KEARNEY 12 continued under seal, to be reconvened on the public record 13 at 3:45 p.m.) 14 * * * * * 226 1 (3:45 p.m.) 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead, Mr. Klayman. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What type of input did USTR make on trade missions? 5 A Okay. I don't remember any input on trade 6 missions. If I answered that USTR had input on trade 7 missions, I misunderstood your question. 8 Q Did the USTR sometimes recommend participants on 9 trade missions? 10 A Not that I recall. 11 Q So they may have, you just don't remember. 12 A I just -- they may have and I would not have been 13 aware of it. It's possible, but I don't recall being aware 14 of any such recommendation. 15 Q Now, Secretary Brown died on August 3, 1996. 16 A April 3rd. 17 Q April 3rd. You were already gone by then? 18 A No, I was still -- 19 Q You were still there? 20 A -- at the department. 21 Q What date did you leave, again? 22 A August -- late August 1996. 23 Q And what was the reason for your leaving? 24 A Decision to go back into the private sector. 25 Q Got a better job? 227 1 A Not a better job. A different job. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q A different job. 4 A A different job. 5 Q A higher paying job. Okay. By the way, who's 6 paying for your legal fees for this appearance here today? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 8 MR. WEBSTER: Objection as totally irrelevant to 9 anything. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q After Secretary Brown died, you recollect that 13 Mickey Kantor took the helm at the Commerce Department, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. Well, he became secretary. 16 Q Did you participate in any meetings with Mickey 17 Kantor where allegations about trade mission seats being sold 18 were discussed? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q What do you mean, not that you recall? You don't 21 remember one way or the other? 22 A I don't recall that any such meetings ever took 23 place. 24 Q Did Mr. Kantor have any meetings where he -- and it 25 doesn't matter -- without regard with whether you were there, 228 1 do you have any knowledge as to whether any meetings were 2 held by Mr. Kantor or anyone else to assess issues involving 3 John Huang after October 1996? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: After October 1996? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q I realize you were gone, but are you aware of any 9 meetings that took place after October? 10 A I'm not aware, either before or after I left. 11 Q Were you aware of any meetings that took place 12 at the department to discuss this Judicial Watch lawsuit? 13 Were you aware the Judicial Watch lawsuit was discussed, 14 even if the meeting wasn't called for that reason? 15 A I do not recall any such meeting in which that was 16 discussed. 17 Q So there may have been discussions at meetings, you 18 just don't remember? 19 A No. Again, there may have been discussions at 20 meetings where I was not present, but I do not recall any 21 such discussions. 22 Q Did you have any meetings that you participated 23 in with Secretary Kantor where trade missions were discussed? 24 A I don't think so. 25 Q Do you know of anybody else who had any such 229 1 meetings? 2 A I don't think so. I don't think the secretary, 3 Secretary Kantor, took any trade missions while I was working 4 under him. 5 Q Secretary Kantor took a trade mission to Bosnia and 6 Croatia, did he not? 7 A I believe so, but that may have been after I left. 8 Q Have you ever discussed this lawsuit, Judicial 9 Watch or Larry Klayman with your sister? 10 A No. Not -- no, not that I recall. 11 Q Do you know whether there have been any discussions 12 in the White House about this lawsuit? 13 A I have no idea. I have no idea. 14 Q Are you aware of testimony by Nolanda Hill that it 15 was Hillary Clinton who devised a scheme to sell seats on 16 trade missions for campaign contributions? 17 A That's the first I heard of that. I'm not aware of 18 that. 19 Q Do you know whether or not that is the case? 20 A I have no idea whether or not that's the case. 21 I've never heard of it before. 22 Q Did you ever hear of testimony by Nolanda Hill that 23 the President knew seats on trade missions were being sold 24 for campaign contributions? 25 A I don't have a recollection of that. 230 1 Q Did you ever hear Secretary Brown say anything to 2 the effect I'm not Hillary Clinton's tour guide? 3 A No. That would stick in my mind if I had heard 4 that, but, no, I never heard that. 5 Q Secretary Brown sometimes used off-color language, 6 correct? As many people do. 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Relevance. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. What is the relevance of 9 that? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the actual quote was a bit more 11 colorful. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: For purposes of decorum, I won't 14 repeat it. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Overruled. We're big 16 boys and girls here. What is he supposed to have said? 17 We'll excuse you. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not Hillary Clinton's m-f'ing 19 tour guide. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever hear m-f'ing -- 22 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: -- from Secretary Brown? 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Your Honor, I thought we 231 1 were here to talk about destruction of documents -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We are. 3 MR. WEBSTER: -- and removal of documents and we're 4 talking about totally extraneous things. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you ever hear Secretary Brown 6 say that? 7 THE WITNESS: No, I never heard the secretary say 8 those words in any context, actually. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you ever hear Secretary Brown complain about 11 Harold Ickes? 12 A No. Not that I recall. 13 Q Did you ever meet John Huang? 14 A Yes. I think I testified to you earlier that 15 I did. 16 Q Before I get into that, with regard to the subpoena 17 which is Exhibit 12 -- I'm not good at numbers -- 17. 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q It requires the production of four categories of 20 documents. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Where did you search for those documents at your 23 firm, specifically? 24 A At my desk. Those documents I have in my office 25 and I looked through them. 232 1 Q And where in your desk were they kept? 2 A No, they were kept on my bookshelf. I took them 3 down and looked through them. 4 Q Does anyone at LeBoeuf Lamb know that you had those 5 documents? 6 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered this 7 morning. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I think I asked it a slightly 9 different way. 10 MR. WEBSTER: No, he didn't. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, I think you didn't. You asked 12 almost the exact same question. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll sustain the objection. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Were they kept in a Redweld, those documents, and 18 labelled? 19 A They are kept in a Redweld and they're not 20 labelled. 21 Q Does your counsel have any of those documents 22 today? 23 A I don't know. I haven't viewed them. 24 Q Your counsel made reference to some documents that 25 he's going to produce the magistrate judge in camera. 233 1 A My answer is still -- 2 Q He has possession of them? 3 A My answer is still the same. I don't know what my 4 counsel has. 5 Q Did you ever give him copies of those documents? 6 A Yes. 7 Q He's got copies of all of them? 8 A I don't know the answer to that. I don't know that 9 he has copies of all of them. 10 Q How did you decide what copies to give him and what 11 to keep? 12 MR. WEBSTER: Your Honor, I am going to object to 13 this as irrelevant and invasive of the attorney-client 14 privilege and every other thing. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, wait a minute now. 16 MR. WEBSTER: This has no relevance whatsoever to 17 what we're doing here. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The question we have, we 19 began this morning, as I understand it, with your telling 20 us, Mr. Webster, that there has been -- well, first of all, 21 let me refresh my recollection. 22 Did you find among the records you took with 23 you, Mr. Kearney, documents that would fall within the 24 subpoena? 25 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 234 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Then, as Mr. Webster 2 explained to us this morning, there are other documents that 3 he has collected from other sources that might fall within 4 the subpoena. 5 THE WITNESS: Which he's never shared with me. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Which he has not shared with 7 Mr. Kearney. And as to those, he will make an in camera, 8 under seal submission, but those -- the source of those 9 documents is not what you gave him. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The source of the documents is 12 some other place. 13 THE WITNESS: Right. Exactly. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Now, Mr. Klayman is 15 inquiring about not those documents, but whether in the 16 documents you took with you from the Department of Commerce, 17 the copies, any of them met the criteria of Appendix A to the 18 subpoena. 19 And as I recollect your testimony, your answer is 20 no, they do not. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's my -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So that's where we are. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Thank you. 25 Mr. Klayman? 235 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q When did you get a copy of this subpoena, Exhibit 3 17? If at all. 4 A I think last week. 5 Q What day last week? 6 A I don't recall. 7 Q How was it provided to you? 8 A Counsel provided it to me. 9 Q How did he provide it to you? 10 A Personally. 11 Q And prior to last week, you had already transferred 12 documents to your counsel, correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And after -- 15 A I transferred copies of documents. 16 Q Right. And those were not all inclusive of the 17 documents you took from the Commerce Department, correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And after you got a copy of this notice of 20 deposition and subpoena, you did not research the documents 21 in your office, did you? 22 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Your Honor, he testified 23 exactly contrary -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Please -- please, Your Honor. No 25 interruptions. 236 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Hold on. 2 MR. WEBSTER: I -- I -- 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, if you can, help me 4 and answer the question. 5 THE WITNESS: The answer is, yes, I did re-search 6 the documents in my office. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You went back through? 9 A Yes. 10 Q One by one? 11 A Yes. It wasn't difficult. 12 Q Was counsel there with you when you did it? 13 A Well, counsel was with me a portion of our 14 discussion of those documents. 15 Q What do you mean by that? 16 MR. WEBSTER: I'm going to object to this line of 17 questioning. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 19 MR. WEBSTER: Your Honor, it's totally irrelevant. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The question has been asked and 21 answered -- 22 MR. WEBSTER: It's an invasion of privilege. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- as counsel has stated. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking about the content of 25 conversations. 237 1 Your Honor, it sounds to me like, in all due 2 respect and not in any way to offend anybody, but it sounds 3 to me like this was a rather haphazard approach to looking to 4 see whether documents should be produced. Documents were 5 here, they were there, they were everywhere. 6 I'm just trying to figure out where they ever in 7 one discrete place where you went through them one by one 8 with counsel -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As I understand this -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: If Your Honor wants to ask the 11 question -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What Mr. Kearney has told us is 13 the following: he got the subpoena, he looked through the 14 documents that he took with him from the Department of 15 Commerce, he concluded that there were none that were 16 responsive to the subpoena. 17 His counsel, however, during the course of his 18 representation, has received from other sources documents 19 that may fall within the subpoena. 20 Counsel explained to us when we began this morning 21 he wanted to preserve the point or at least consider the 22 point or have me consider the point that the possibility that 23 he holds those as agent for Mr. Kearney and therefore as 24 agent he may have an obligation to produce them, but he is 25 troubled by doing that because that would be invasive of the 238 1 attorney-client privilege or the attorney work product 2 privilege. 3 He therefore will submit those documents which 4 come other than from the files that Mr. Kearney took with 5 him from the Department of Commerce and ask me to review 6 them and that will be the legal issue that is teed up for my 7 resolution. 8 Is that right? 9 MR. WEBSTER: Perfectly expressed. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Your Honor, I understand with 11 the confusion how you may have come to the first part of 12 that, but I never got testimony from him exactly to pinpoint 13 how the documents were reviewed and who was there. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, he just told us that he was 15 reviewing them and that at a portion of that his counsel was 16 present. 17 I would view anything beyond that as -- even if it 18 was only the description of an act -- as being at least -- 19 the act itself of transfer would in my view be a confidential 20 communication between a lawyer and his client -- I'm sorry, 21 between a client and a lawyer. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand Your Honor's position. 23 We are going to request that all of the documents be provided 24 Your Honor in camera. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. But you have to be very 239 1 careful. All what documents? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: The documents that he -- 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It seems to me there are two -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: The documents that he took from 5 Commerce Department. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. So -- 7 Ms. Braswell? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, Your Honor -- 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You'll be heard as to that. 10 The first application you have, which I would 11 appreciate you making on papers, Mr. Klayman, is that you 12 want to see all of the documents that Mr. Kearney took with 13 him from the Department of Commerce, even if they do not meet 14 the requirements of the subpoena and I'll hear Ms. Braswell 15 and Mr. Webster as to that. Okay? 16 Then the second question, the second group of 17 documents is those documents which Mr. Webster has collected 18 incident to his representation of Mr. Kearney. As to those, 19 they will come to me under seal, with whatever argument 20 Mr. Webster wishes to attach them as to why he is under no 21 obligation to produce them. 22 And you'll be heard as to that as well -- 23 MR. KLAYMAN: And what I'm suggesting -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- and so will Ms. Braswell. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: What I'm suggesting is not that all 240 1 the documents that he took from the Commerce Department be 2 produced to Judicial Watch, but be produced to the Court in 3 camera. 4 MS. BRASWELL: There was never an issue of 5 producing them to you if they weren't responsive to the 6 subpoena. The only issue was producing them in camera to the 7 judge. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: We can do this in writing, 9 Your Honor -- 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I would appreciate it if you 11 would -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: -- but we have made a prima facie 13 showing -- 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- because I don't understand 15 that -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. There is -- there is a prima 17 facie showing, let me see if I can -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You've made your point. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: -- so Your Honor can understand -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think I see your point. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: -- that the Court has found 22 discrepancies in testimony and given -- 23 MR. WEBSTER: But not with respect to Mr. Kearney. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Webster, please. Mr. Klayman 25 in was mid-sentence. We'll hear you in a sentence. 241 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, he has made -- the judge has 2 made such findings with regard to Mr. Kearney and therefore 3 out of an abundance of caution, given that prima facie 4 showing, that we're asking a quick review of the documents in 5 camera. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 7 All right. And you can speak to that, Mr. Klayman, 8 and Mr. Webster and Ms. Braswell will be heard. 9 In the interim, Mr. Kearney, as a courtesy to me, 10 would you make sure that you preserve them and not destroy 11 anything? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you for adding that, 14 Your Honor. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're welcome. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Have you ever seen a Democratic National Committee 18 donor list? Before I ask that question, did you ever take 19 floppy disks out of the Department of Commerce? 20 A No. Not that I recall. 21 Q But you may have? 22 A I wouldn't have known what to do with them. 23 Q Well, you could have people type them out, right? 24 A I don't -- I never took any floppy disks out of the 25 Department of Commerce. 242 1 Q You did take -- at your last deposition, you 2 did state that you did take documents home from time to 3 time. 4 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered 5 repetitively. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just laying a foundation. 7 MR. WEBSTER: Repetitively. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 Did you indicate -- I'm looking for it myself. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: He did. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Just a moment, please. 12 Page 68, line 3. "During the time you were with 13 the department, from time to time, you would go home with 14 documents after work." 15 "Yes." 16 Okay. So you would take documents home with you. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's correct. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Go ahead, Mr. Klayman. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you search your home in response to Exhibit 17, 21 the subpoena that required production today? 22 A I didn't search my home, but I don't have any 23 Department of Commerce documents there. That was never a 24 stopping point. In taking the documents that I took out, 25 they were sent directly to LeBoeuf Lamb. 243 1 When I made the reference to taking documents home, 2 it was to work on them at home. Speeches or other documents 3 that we were working on at the time. 4 Q Have you ever seen a Democratic National Committee 5 minority donor list? 6 A I don't recall seeing that list. I know that's 7 a list that has -- or what you're calling a document 8 that's been presented to you. I haven't seen it since 9 the discovery, but it's not a document that I -- that is 10 familiar to me. 11 Q Have you discussed a Democratic National Committee 12 minority donor list with anyone other than counsel since your 13 last deposition on October 8, 1996? 14 A Maybe with my wife in conjunction with the news 15 article that came out, but other than that, no. Not that 16 I recall. 17 Q Did you ever discuss the minority donor list 18 with any former or present employee of the Department of 19 Commerce? 20 A I don't have a specific recollection of having such 21 a conversation. 22 Q What do you mean by "specific recollection"? 23 A I don't have any recollection of having such a 24 conversation. 25 Q Did you ever have a conversation with Ms. Sopko 244 1 about that? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you have a conversation with anyone in the 4 general counsel's office at the Commerce Department? 5 A Not that I'm aware of. No. 6 Q Ginger Lew? 7 A No. 8 Q Did anyone from the Democratic National Committee 9 ever discuss this with you? 10 A Not that I'm aware of. 11 Q Anyone at the White House? 12 A No, not that I'm aware of. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 14 reporter to mark -- what's the next one? 15 THE COURT REPORTER: Nineteen. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 19. 17 (Kearney Deposition No. 19 18 was marked for identification.) 19 MS. BRASWELL: What was Exhibit 18? 20 THE WITNESS: Is it 18? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Which exhibit is this? 22 THE COURT REPORTER: Nineteen. 23 MS. BRASWELL: What was Exhibit 18? 24 THE WITNESS: Oh, here it is. Robert Atkins. 25 MR. WEBSTER: Atkins was 18? 245 1 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. 2 MR. WEBSTER: Okay. You've missed one because you 3 missed the subpoena, probably. He didn't hand out copies of 4 the subpoena. 5 THE WITNESS: Which is seventeen. 6 MR. WEBSTER: Seventeen. 7 THE COURT REPORTER: Eighteen was the affidavit of 8 Atkins. 9 MS. BRASWELL: Can you hand me a copy of 10 Exhibit 17, please? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q This document is comprised of one, two, three, 13 four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, 14 thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, 15 nineteen, twenty -- I actually skipped one -- it's comprised 16 of 22 pages. 17 A Mm-hmm. 18 MR. WEBSTER: Are you sure? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And it's labelled Minority Donor List. Do you see 22 on the top it looks like someone tried to scratch out 23 minority donor list? 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q Was that you who tried to scratch that out? 246 1 A I don't recall seeing this document before, so 2 I don't -- I can't say whose scratching that is. 3 Q And do you know who tried to scratch it out? 4 A I definitely do not know. 5 Q It is a Democratic National Committee minority 6 donor list, is it not? 7 A I don't know what this document is. 8 Q Now -- 9 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me, Your Honor. Could I get a 10 clarification? He said 22 pages; I've got 21 pages and I'm 11 not sure that the statement is correct. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, somebody has written the 13 words total page 22. 14 MR. WEBSTER: Well, yes, but that's -- I think 15 what's wrong here is that there's usually a fax, there's a 16 cover sheet on the fax, it's the first page and this document 17 itself is 21 pages, but I want to make sure I'm looking at 18 the correct number of pages. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think it's 21, by my count. Is 20 that what you get, Mr. Kearney? 21 THE WITNESS: I didn't count them independently. 22 That's what I have, Your Honor. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll stipulate to 21, Your Honor. 24 I just counted it again. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 247 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Twenty-one. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Twenty-one. 3 MS. BRASWELL: I have 21 also. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Okay. Now, tel me who on this list you know, 6 either in terms of having met them, talked to them or who you 7 consider a friend or have corresponded with them in writing. 8 Let's go page 1. 9 A I've already gone through page 1 and I've gone 10 through page 2. On page 3, I don't know Ms. Allen, Debbie 11 Allen, the fourth name down, but obviously she's a well known 12 person. 13 Q Why is she well known? 14 A She's an actress. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Norm Nixon plays for the Lakers. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, used to. 17 On page 4, I know Ms. Biggins. Actually, I don't 18 know her. I know who she is. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q How do you know who she is? 21 A Because she was for about a year White House 22 Director of Office of Personnel. 23 Q Did Vanessa Weaver take her place? 24 A Vanessa Weaver? 25 Q Yeah. 248 1 A No. No. I don't think Vanessa Weaver has ever 2 been Office of Personnel. 3 Q Okay. Go on. 4 A So far -- well, what are you asking me? People 5 whose names are familiar? 6 Q Who you've had any contact with. 7 A Any contact with? 8 Q Right. 9 A Okay. So far, nobody except for Ms. Biggins. That 10 I'm -- you know, that the name is recognizable to me. 11 Page one, two, three, four, five, six, Ms. Anita 12 Estell. 13 Q And who is she? 14 A She is -- well, I met her when she used to work on 15 the hill for Congressman Stokes from Ohio. So I don't know 16 about this, but I know that name. 17 Q Louis Stokes? 18 A Yes. 19 Q From Cleveland? 20 A From Cleveland. Yes. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Correct. Again, the pages aren't numbered -- one, 23 two, three, four, five, six -- page seven, the bottom, 24 Mr. Eugene Jackson I've met. 25 Q Have you ever had any contact with Johnny Cochran? 249 1 A No. 2 Q Okay. 3 A No. 4 Q And who is Eugene Jackson? 5 A Well, as it says here, which I assume is true, he's 6 chairman and CEO of World Africa Network. 7 Q And what is World Africa Network? 8 A I think it's a telecommunications or broadcasting 9 company. 10 Q Okay. 11 A I don't know specifically, though. 12 Q All right. 13 A I can't read the name -- well, I'm way into the 14 document -- 15 MR. WEBSTER: The top name. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. The top name, but I don't know 17 which page it is -- oh, it's 12? 18 MR. WEBSTER: I don't know. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Just read the top name and that will 20 key us in. 21 MR. WEBSTER: Read the top name. 22 THE WITNESS: National Finance Council, 23 Mr. David -- and I can't see that last name. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Can we agree or stipulate it's 25 Brand, B-r-a-n-d? 250 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. Then I don't -- I mean, I may 2 have met them, but I don't know who it is. 3 It must be page 14, top name Business Leadership 4 Forum at the very top, second name down, Mr. Charles Atkins. 5 I don't know well, but I met him at one point. 6 Ms. Carolyn Boyd I met. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Where did you meet her? 9 A She worked for AT&T at a time when AT&T was making 10 an intergovernmental effort for U.S. Government finance for a 11 fiber optic cable around the continent of Africa and I met 12 her in that capacity. 13 Q Okay. Go on. 14 A Rodney Ellis I've met. I met him in South Africa. 15 Q On the trade trip to South Africa? 16 A No, no. On a separate trip all together. Just 17 happened to meet him there. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Don't know him personally, though. Ernest Green, 20 I don't know which page this is any more. 21 Q Well, the one that has on the top Thomas 22 Farrington. 23 A Yes. Thomas Farrington. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is he the gentleman you mentioned 251 1 earlier today who was one of the people who originally 2 integrated Little Rock? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Carolyn Jordan on the 4 next page. From Pryor, McClendon & Counts, the one with 5 Sheila Johnson at the very top. 6 Ernest Joshua on that same page I've also met. 7 Next page, Mr. Elvin Moon. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How did you meet Elvin Moon? 10 A I met Mr. Moon for the first time in Little Rock 11 years ago. I don't remember the circumstances. 12 Q You introduced Mr. Moon to Mr. Trie at some point, 13 didn't you? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q And where was that? 16 A That was here in Washington. 17 Q Why did you introduce Mr. Moon to Mr. Trie? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Where did you introduce them? 20 A I think I provided Mr. Trie with Mr. Moon's local 21 phone number and I think they introduced themselves. 22 Next page, Mr. Malcolm Pryor. 23 Q What kind of a company is Pryor McLendon? 24 A It's an investment banking company. 25 Q Okay. 252 1 A Primarily focused on public finance. 2 This page with Charles Taylor at the top, 3 Dr. Alonzo Williams I think I've met. I know a doctor from 4 Little Rock by the name of Alonzo Williams. 5 Bob Johnson, chairman of Black Entertainment 6 Television, I've met. 7 Mr. Bill Lucy I've met. 8 Q AFSCME is a union? 9 A I think so. Yes. 10 Q Federal union? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Okay. I think it's state and municipal employees. 13 Does that ring a bell? 14 A No, it doesn't ring a bell. I don't know. 15 Q Who else? 16 A That's it. 17 Q Well, there's Mr. Mays on the back page, isn't 18 there? 19 A I didn't -- 20 Q You said you'd met him. 21 A I don't see -- 22 Q Managing trustee. 23 A Oh, all I saw was managing trustee. Yes. I've met 24 Mr. Mays. 25 Q Managing trustee, you know what that is at the 253 1 Democratic National Committee, do you not? 2 A I do not know what that is. 3 Q You pay $100,000 and among various things you get 4 to go on a government trade mission? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Lacks foundation. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know that to be the case. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Argumentative. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He said he didn't know that to be 10 the case. He answered the question. Overruled. That's 11 overruled. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 13 reporter to mark as Exhibit 19. 14 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. Twenty. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Twenty. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 16 Exhibit 20. This is the Democratic National Committee's 17 Managing Trustee Events and Membership Requirements. 18 (Kearney Deposition No. 20 19 was marked for identification.) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever seen this before, Mr. Kearney? 22 A I don't believe I have. 23 Q Point 5, "Annual economic trade missions." 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q "Managing trustees are invited to participate in 254 1 foreign trade missions, which affords opportunities to join 2 party leaders in meeting with business leaders abroad." 3 A Mm-hmm. 4 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 5 you've seen it? 6 A No, it doesn't. 7 Q Are you aware that there was a program where if you 8 gave 100,000 you got to go on a trade mission? 9 A I heard that from you. I was not aware of that. 10 I was never in any danger of that. 11 Q Anyone else? 12 A Anyone else what? Anyone else what? 13 Q That you recognize on this list? 14 A From my reading of it, those are the ones that 15 I recall. 16 Q Okay. Now, the companies that are listed on this 17 list -- 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q -- they are primarily service providers, correct? 20 A I do not know what these companies are. I mean, 21 most of them, I don't know them. 22 Q Okay. Well, the first one, DNC Friends, 23 Professional Home Care? 24 A Okay. 25 Q Have you ever heard of that company? 255 1 A No. 2 Q What is that, medical care? 3 A I have no -- 4 Q Nursing care? 5 A I don't know anything about the company. 6 Q Okay. Vernie & Foreman Law Firm, a law firm did 7 fall within the purview of your section of the Commerce 8 Department, correct? In terms of services? 9 A Yes, not a big part, but, yeah. 10 Q Okay. Communications, that was part of what you 11 were charged with in your section. 12 A Telecommunications, yes. 13 Q Telecommunications and communications generally, 14 correct? 15 A Well, what do you mean by communications? 16 Q Communications companies. 17 A Like telecommunications companies? 18 Q Right. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Accounting services, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. So flipping to the second page, 23 Arthur Andersen & Company, that would fall within the 24 purview of your section of the Commerce Department, 25 correct? 256 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. Outside the 2 scope. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. Sustained. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask it a different way? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Try. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Accounting companies, this was within what your 8 section of the Commerce Department promoted at the Commerce 9 Department? 10 A Accounting services? I can't say for sure that 11 that's the case. It is financial services, but there were 12 certain industries which didn't frankly require a lot of 13 assistance from our department. 14 Q And life insurance would fall within the insurance 15 area, correct? 16 A Yes. Yes. 17 Q In fact, any type of insurance would, correct? 18 A Yes. Correct. 19 Q And medical services would fall within the purview 20 that you worked in? 21 A That was debated within the Commerce Department as 22 to whether it was basic industries or services. So it was 23 never -- 24 Q Never decided? 25 A Never crystal clear and, frankly, we didn't do a 257 1 whole lot in the area of that. 2 Q And banks fell within the purview. 3 A Again, there was turf with Treasury Department, so 4 we helped develop some policy, but -- 5 Q Well, at least in terms of Commerce Department, it 6 would fall within your section, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Entertainment companies, that would fall within the 9 purview of your part of the Commerce Department? 10 A Yes, I think so. 11 Q Churches, that would fall within? 12 A No. No. There is no international trade in 13 churches. 14 Q Would trade associations fall within the purview 15 that you were head of? 16 A Only trade associations that were focused on -- for 17 instance, I did extensive work with the International 18 Insurance Council, but the underlying industry had to fall 19 within the purview. 20 Q Automobile agencies? 21 A I don't have a recollection of doing very much on 22 that front. 23 Q If not your division, then what division at 24 Commerce? 25 A Probably Basic Industries. I know autos fell 258 1 within Basic Industries. 2 Q Well, how about car dealerships? 3 A Again, to the extent they were looking to export, 4 it would have been Basic Industries. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, can you bring this 6 portion of the inquiry to some conclusion? I think I know 7 what you're getting at, but maybe if you could summarize it 8 and move on? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, I'm trying to hit the -- well, 10 actually, I'm trying to speed it by going into these 11 groupings. I could have done it one by one, Your Honor, but 12 I felt we may have had a nervous breakdown. For all of us. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, I think I understand your 14 point. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q And just to be absolutely clear, health care 17 systems would be within your area at Commerce? 18 A Probably not. Basic Industries. 19 Q The document that I've just shown to you, this 20 isn't a personal document, is it? 21 A What do you mean by "personal document"? 22 Q Was it your personal document? 23 A I don't recall this document. 24 Q Do you know of it being anybody else's personal 25 document? 259 1 A I don't know -- I don't recall anything about this 2 document. 3 Q Does it look to you like it's some personal 4 document that belongs to somebody? 5 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Based on your experience. 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'll sustain that. I don't know 9 what that means. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm not following you. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection was sustained. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you what your former 13 employer claimed in one of the news articles you may or 14 may not have reviewed. I'll ask that it be marked as 15 Exhibit 21. 16 (Kearney Deposition No. 21 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q This is an article of Sunday, June 1, 1997 in 20 The Washington Post. 21 A Mm-hmm. 22 Q It's called "Donors List at Commerce Called 23 Personal Document." 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q Have you seen this article before? 260 1 A Yes, I have. 2 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I would object that 3 this article is no proof of what the Department of Commerce 4 said or didn't say. In fact, many newspaper articles are 5 based on what Mr. Klayman has told the press. This is proof 6 of nothing. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: But wait a second. You might want to 8 read it, Ms. Braswell. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Form a question on the basis of 10 it, Mr. Klayman, I think I see where you're heading. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The second paragraph, "The list was considered a 13 'personal document, not a Commerce document,' spokeswoman 14 Maria Cardona said." You know Maria Cardona, don't you? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 Q She was the press secretary at the time? 17 A At the time I left, I don't think she was, but 18 I think she became press secretary. 19 Q When Ms. Luzzatto left, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And do you remember seeing this quotation, 22 that the donor list was a personal document? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. Do you have any basis to claim that the 25 document I've shown you was a personal document, this 261 1 minority donor list? 2 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. Why would -- I don't 4 understand what you mean. Why would he have any obligation 5 to adopt a characterization by someone else? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I didn't ask him to adopt it. 7 I said does he have any facts of any kind from any source 8 that would lead him to believe that this was a personal 9 document. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I'm not so certain I understand 11 what Ms. Cardona means when she draws a distinction between a 12 personal document and a Commerce document. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know either. That's why I'm 14 asking, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you understand what she meant? 16 THE WITNESS: No, I do not. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you ever draw a similar 18 distinction when you were at the Department of Commerce? 19 THE WITNESS: No. Well, I did draw a distinction 20 between a personal document and a work document. A personal 21 document might have been a birthday card that I received, but 22 it was that basic distinction. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q You're not saying this was a birthday card. 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 262 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, come on, Mr. Klayman. 2 MR. WEBSTER: Come on. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, he isn't. 4 Mr. Kearney, for example, if in my desk drawer, 5 okay? I get a letter from a friend of mine for some reason, 6 he asks me to go to a ball game, I consider that a personal 7 letter, right? Is that what you think she means? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Oh, I don't know if that's what 9 she means. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You don't know what she means. 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But that's probably what you would 13 mean. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you ever talk to Ms. Cardona about this 17 document? 18 A Did not. 19 Q Did she ever try to contact you? 20 A Not to my knowledge -- 21 Q Did anyone -- I'm sorry, go on. 22 A Not to my knowledge. 23 Q Did anyone from the press office try to contact 24 you? 25 A From the Department of Commerce? 263 1 Q Yes. 2 A Not that I'm aware of. 3 Q Do you know of anyone who was contacted by the 4 Department of Commerce concerning this document before 5 Ms. Cardona issued her statement to The Washington Post? 6 A I would have no way of knowing. 7 Q Do you know of any facts or information or 8 documentation which supports Ms. Cardona's statement that 9 this was a personal document? 10 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's hear what the basis for that 13 is, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The basis is I don't really 15 understand what Mr. Kearney has to -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Nobody's blaming Mr. Kearney. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: The fact is the Department of 19 Commerce -- 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Cardona said something which 21 I'm not so certain she understands, all right? She drew a 22 distinction, all right? 23 Mr. Kearney indicates to us that that is not his 24 distinction, so further questions about the validity of the 25 distinction between personal documents and official documents 264 1 impose on Mr. Kearney an impression Ms. Cardona has. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I'm just asking whether he knows 3 how Ms. Cardona came up with that. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you know how Ms. Cardona came 5 up with that distinction? 6 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Did you ever see a press release that was 10 issued by Ms. Cardona concerning Judicial Watch and this 11 lawsuit? 12 A Not that I'm aware of. I don't recall seeing such 13 a thing. 14 Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Kearney or Mr. Whatley 15 was contacted by Ms. Cardona about this document that she 16 called a personal document? 17 A I do not know. 18 Q Of the people on this list, how many went on 19 Department of Commerce trade missions? 20 Let me see if I can move this along quickly. 21 I'll show you what is an article in The Washington 22 Times by Jerry Seper entitled "Ex-Commerce Official Testifies 23 DNC Sent Trip-for-Donations List, Backs Key Part of Public 24 Interest Firm Judicial Watch's Suit." I'll ask that it be 25 marked as Exhibit 22. 265 1 (Kearney Deposition No. 22 2 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Turn to the bottom paragraph of this. 5 A I see it. 6 Q Okay. "A review showed that five of those on the 7 list, Ernest Green of the District, Ernest Joshua of 8 Arkansas, William Lucy of the District, Malcolm Pryor of 9 Philadelphia and Robin Brooks of Wisconsin, attended a trade 10 mission to South Africa with Mr. Brown in November of 1993." 11 Is that correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Okay. Is there anyone else on this list that went 14 on any trade mission? 15 A I don't the answer to that question. They may or 16 may not have gone on them. 17 Q Well, since you've had a chance to review it at 18 least once, see if you could go through it and tell me if you 19 can see anybody else that went on a trade mission. 20 A That I'm aware of. 21 Q Yes. 22 A I'm not aware, personally aware, of anyone else on 23 this list going on -- going on one of the trade missions. 24 But bear in mind that others -- other agencies took trade 25 missions. 266 1 Q Do you have any information as to whether or not 2 this minority donor list came from your files or files of 3 people you supervised at the Commerce Department? 4 A I have information that it came from the Office of 5 Service Industries. 6 Q What information do you have? 7 A This article. 8 Q Do you have any information other than that? 9 A Well, it indicates in here that Mr. Whatley has 10 said that it came from that office. 11 Q I'm talking about information that you have. 12 A No. Do not. I don't have any independent 13 knowledge of where this document physically was kept or where 14 it came from. 15 Q If I'm being duplicative, I apologize, but did the 16 inspector general ask you where this document was stored, if 17 at all, when the inspector general interviewed you at LeBoeuf 18 Lamb? 19 A I don't recall that. I don't recall that they 20 asked me. They may have asked me if I knew of the existence 21 of the document and this is a vague recollection and my 22 answer would have been, as it is now, no. 23 Q And that's the only question they asked you? 24 A I don't recall what other questions they would have 25 asked me. It was not a long interview. 267 1 Q Right. You said 15 minutes. 2 A I said 15 to 20 minutes. 3 Q Okay. And that's the only question you can recall 4 that they may have asked you. 5 A No, they asked other questions. I just don't 6 recall the specific questions. 7 Q Did they ask you other questions about this 8 document? 9 A I'm sure they must have. What I knew about the 10 document, whether or not I had recalled seeing it, and those 11 types of things. 12 Q Did they tell you at the time that they interviewed 13 you that Ms. Sopko testified that it came from your files? 14 A I don't think they shared with me anyone else's 15 testimony. 16 Q Have you since come to learn that? 17 A I was aware of it before that, that Ms. Sopko -- 18 Q Had testified that it came from your files. 19 A I don't think I was independently aware of where 20 Ms. Sopko said they came from. I was aware that they 21 purported to come from my files, even before Ms. Sopko would 22 have testified. 23 Q How were you aware of that? 24 A From this article. 25 Q After you saw this article which is Exhibit 22, did 268 1 you contact anybody? 2 A Counsel. 3 Q Other than counsel? 4 A Not other than counsel. 5 Q Do you know one way or the other whether this 6 minority donor list was one of the documents that Graham 7 Whatley said he questioned whether it should be produced or 8 not as privileged? 9 A My recollection is that we at least discussed in 10 general terms the types of documents that Graham was 11 concerned about and they did not include a document in any 12 way like this. 13 Q Tell me specifically what leads you to believe that 14 because when I asked you these questions earlier you didn't 15 have much of a memory. 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 17 MR. WEBSTER: Objection to that, Your Honor. 18 MS. BRASWELL: Misstates prior testimony. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You don't have to characterize his 20 testimony. 21 THE WITNESS: That's not correct. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'll let the record speak for 23 itself. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ask another question, Mr. Klayman. 269 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Why are you now so sure that this is something that 3 you did not discuss with Mr. Whatley when he said he had some 4 documents that maybe shouldn't be produced because they were 5 privileged? 6 A When you say "sure," that's not the terminology I'm 7 using. What I'm telling you is that the category of 8 documents that Mr. Whatley -- that I recall us discussing, 9 whether or not we looked at individual documents, was of a 10 different category than would have included a document like 11 this. 12 Q What do you mean by that? I don't know what you 13 mean. 14 A They were documents -- some of them were related 15 to whether or not they were duplicative of, you know, 16 multiply produced documents, whether we had, you know, a 17 copy of documents where we weren't principal in the 18 communication. 19 Then there were some documents that may have 20 dealt with propriety and those types of things. In any 21 event, the questions relating to the documents that I 22 recall were then sent to someone else in the general counsel. 23 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, your discussions with 24 Whatley were more about propriety and general issues of 25 appropriateness, but they weren't actually with regard to 270 1 specific types of documents? 2 I mean, just a general discussion, some documents 3 may not be proper for production, but you didn't actually 4 identify categories of specific types of documents that were 5 involved? 6 A I don't have a specific recollection of specific 7 documents. I do have, as I already testified, a vague 8 recollection that we were talking about types of documents. 9 Q What types of documents were you talking about? 10 A Types like I was talking about before, ones that 11 were either duplicative, it wasn't clear whether or not they 12 were responsive, ones that may have had some propriety, ones 13 that might otherwise have been withheld, one might withhold 14 for other bases. 15 Q When you said "propriety," you mean proprietary 16 information? 17 A Yes. 18 Q But other than those just general subject matters, 19 you didn't discuss specific kinds of documents, such as a 20 minority donor list? 21 A No. We did not discuss a minority donor list. 22 Q Okay. So for all you know, this minority donor 23 list may have been part of the documents that Mr. Whatley was 24 withholding, correct? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 271 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, overruled. 2 Do you know if Whatley -- do you know of your own 3 knowledge, Mr. Kearney, whether Mr. Whatley held this 4 document back when it came time for the Department of 5 Commerce to respond to the FOIA request? 6 THE WITNESS: Do I know that he held this document 7 back? No, I do not know that he held this document back. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You don't know one way or the other. 10 A I don't know that Mr. Whatley held or didn't hold 11 this document back. I don't have any reason to believe that 12 he would have. 13 Q Because you never sat down with him and went 14 through the documents one by one. 15 A I'm not saying that, actually. I'm saying that it 16 is possible we went through the documents, but I'm saying 17 that my recollection is that we either went through the 18 documents or we discussed them in some detail so that I got a 19 sense of what his concerns were. In neither one of those 20 formulations does this document fit into my recollection. 21 Q If you had seen this document at the time, would 22 this have raised concern with you? 23 A Probably it would have. 24 Q Why is that? 25 A Because, number one, it says DNC on it. Clearly 272 1 your focus was on the relevance of the DNC, so just that word 2 in and of itself. 3 Q Well, would it have concerned you only because 4 Judicial Watch's focus was on it or would it have concerned 5 you because you can't have any kind of fundraising at the 6 Department of Commerce? 7 A This doesn't -- 8 Q Based on your experience. 9 A This doesn't indicate any kind of fundraising to 10 me, so if you're asking me how I would have responded to it, 11 it would have been whether or not it was responsive and gone 12 from there. 13 Q Okay. So that was the only issue? 14 A That wasn't an issue. 15 Q Okay. If you had found this document while you 16 were at the Commerce Department and it was responsive to 17 Judicial Watch, would you have turned it over? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And if you had found this document in the files of 20 the Commerce Department, would that based on your experience 21 have raised concerns as to whether or not the document should 22 be in the Commerce Department's files? 23 A I'm not sure I follow that question. 24 Q Is it appropriate to have a minority donor list in 25 a Commerce Department file, based on your experience? 273 1 A I don't have any independent experience of a 2 document like this, other than this document, so I don't have 3 any independent experience as to whether or not such a 4 document is appropriate. This document in and of itself to 5 me is basically -- well, it isn't self-evident to me what it 6 is. 7 Q Well, it says minority donor list, right? 8 A Yes, but I mean -- it's not clear why this would 9 have been within our offices. 10 Q It says minority donor list, correct? 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q It lists various persons, correct? 13 A Or companies, yes. 14 Q Or companies. 15 A Yes. 16 Q It refers to the Democratic National Committee. 17 A Mm-hmm. 18 Q Correct? 19 A Mm-hmm. 20 Q Can one reasonably conclude based on your 21 experience that this is a donor list of the Democratic 22 National Committee? 23 A I don't know that this is a donor list of the -- 24 and I don't have any independent experience to tell me 25 whether or not this is a DNC donor list. 274 1 Q Based on your experience, was it proper to select 2 participants on trade missions based on their campaign 3 contributions? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What's the objection? 7 MS. BRASWELL: It calls for a legal conclusion. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. Overruled. 9 MR. WEBSTER: I object, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: On what basis are you objecting? 11 MR. WEBSTER: On the grounds that he wasn't making 12 the selections here, applying the selection criteria. He's 13 not the one to answer that question. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Objection overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: Was it proper to make -- well, 16 I don't have any independent experience and it did not occur, 17 as I recall. 18 So when you say is it proper, I don't know the 19 answer to that, but the answer that I have given you before 20 is that I don't recall that that decision was made in 21 choosing participants on trade missions. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q That's not my question. My question was whether or 24 not based on your experience it's proper to select 25 participants on a government trade mission based on their 275 1 campaign contributions to a political party. 2 MS. BRASWELL: Same objection. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 MR. WEBSTER: Same objection. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 A I don't know how to give you a different answer, 9 other than to say that I'm not aware that it ever occurred 10 and that my presumption is that it -- because it was not a 11 part of our criteria that it was not a proper part of the 12 consideration, just as many other things, like height or 13 weight. 14 Q And, in fact, it would be improper to choose 15 someone to go on trade missions on the basis of any political 16 consideration, correct? 17 A I don't know about political consideration. That's 18 broad. That's very broad. Don't forget that the focus of 19 our effort was a policy focus to increase our opportunities 20 in foreign markets. 21 Q Let me make it a little narrower. Based on your 22 experience, it would not be proper to select trade mission 23 participants based on political contacts of the participant. 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 276 1 THE WITNESS: I think that's fair, yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q I'll show you what already has been marked as 4 Exhibit 6 to your deposition. 5 A Actually, you show it here as Sopko exhibit. 6 Q No, it's Kearney Exhibit -- well, okay. It's 7 Exhibit 6 to yours. We'll put that on the record. It's 8 Sopko's Exhibit 7. 9 A Okay. 10 Q And this is a memorandum written by JCB of Entergy 11 Corporation to file, subject: Washington Trip re: Secretary 12 Brown's August 17th to September 2nd trade mission. 13 Second paragraph: "Met with Jude Kearney regarding 14 Secretary Brown's upcoming trip to China." 15 You remember meeting with Entergy Corporation 16 representatives with regard to the trip to China, correct? 17 A I have a vague recollection of meeting with 18 representatives from Entergy. 19 Q With regard to the trade trip to China. 20 A Yes. Yes. 21 Q You remember meeting with J. Christopher Brown, 22 correct? 23 A I think when you asked me this before, I did not 24 recall that name and it's not a name that's independently 25 recognizable to me. 277 1 MR. WEBSTER: Since this has been explored 2 thoroughly in a prior deposition, together with this exhibit 3 at the prior deposition, again, I would suggest it's outside 4 the scope of the court order and not relevant. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Judge Lamberth -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Let's go. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Do you remember the name J. Christopher Brown? 10 A I don't have an independent memory of that. 11 Q "Kearney distinguished between mission participants 12 and in-country participants. Indicated competitive nature of 13 being selected to ride on the plane with the secretary. Also 14 indicated that politics of the situation were important and 15 that he as a political appointee would push those who were 16 politically connected." 17 You told J. Christopher Brown that at Entergy, 18 didn't you? 19 A No. Not that I recall. I think I've testified to 20 that. 21 Q Is it your position that Entergy Corporation is 22 lying when it said that here? 23 A I don't know whether or not this person who wrote 24 this memorandum was lying or was doing something else. 25 Q Can you think of any motive why Entergy Corporation 278 1 would lie about what you said? 2 A I'm not trying to -- no, I can't think of what this 3 person was trying to do. 4 Q Did you ever have contact with a T.S. Chung? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Who is T.S. Chung? 7 A He was one of my colleagues at the Department of 8 Commerce. 9 Q And T.S. Chung was a friend of John Huang, correct? 10 A I don't know that. 11 Q Do you know whether or not T.S. Chung's name was 12 found on an Asian-Pacific-American minority donor list that 13 came out of the files of John Huang at the Democratic 14 National Committee? 15 A You're saying it now is the first that I'm aware of 16 that, that I've heard it. 17 Q While we look for that document, you know Melinda 18 Yee, do you not? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Melinda Yee went on the trade trip to China. 21 A I believe she did. 22 Q And you saw her taking notes on that trade trip, 23 correct? 24 A No, I don't recall seeing Ms. Yee take notes. 25 Q In fact, she was the note taker on that trip, 279 1 correct? 2 A The note taker? I don't know that there was such a 3 person, but I don't know who it was if that person existed. 4 Q Ms. Yee was a friend of James and Mochtar Riyadi, 5 correct? 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Beyond the scope. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know that to be the fact. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q In fact, she told you that she knew the Riyadis, 11 correct? 12 A She may have mentioned that to me. I don't recall. 13 Q Did you go to Indonesia? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q Did you attend a reception at the house of the 16 Riyadis? 17 A No, I did not. I didn't attend a reception at the 18 house of anyone. 19 Q You are aware that the Riyadis own the Lippo Group. 20 A I am aware of that assertion in media. 21 Q You learned that while you were at the Department 22 of Commerce, correct? 23 A No, I'm not sure I learned that while I was at the 24 Department of Commerce. 25 Q During that trade mission to China in the fall of 280 1 1994, granted it occurs before September 21st, late August, 2 early September, Entergy Corporation attempted to negotiate a 3 joint venture with Lippo and Chinese interests, correct? 4 A I don't recall what Entergy Corporation -- what 5 their specific projects were. 6 Q I didn't ask for the specific projects. I said 7 they tried to negotiate a joint venture with Entergy and 8 Chinese interests. 9 A No, that wasn't your specific question, but -- 10 Q It was. 11 A Well, no, you mentioned Lippo. 12 Q Yeah, with Lippo, China and Entergy. 13 A Okay. Your question is evolving, but let me just 14 tell you that I don't recall specifically what Entergy's 15 projects were. 16 Q But you do know that they went on the trade mission 17 to China. 18 A Yes. 19 Q You do know they were trying to put together a 20 joint venture with Lippo. 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: When you say they were trying to put 24 together, I may have been informed of that at some point. It 25 is not now currently crystal clear in my mind. 281 1 I knew they were trying to put together some 2 projects in China. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You knew that during the time you worked at the 5 Commerce Department that John Huang's former employer was 6 Lippo, correct? 7 A I'm not sure I knew that at the time I was at the 8 Department of Commerce. I learned it subsequently. I didn't 9 know very much about Mr. Huang's background, but there was no 10 reason for me to. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 12 reporter to mark as Exhibit 23. It was marked as Exhibit 22 13 at Mr. Huang's deposition. This is an Asian-Pacific-American 14 appointees list which came straight out of the files of 15 Mr. Huang at the Democratic National Committee. It's a 16 public document. 17 (Kearney Deposition No. 23 18 was marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Looking at the second page, non-career senior 21 executive service, SES, Tong Soo Chung, that is T.S. Chung 22 that I've just referred to, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Director, Office of Export Promotion Coordination, 25 Department of Commerce, correct? 282 1 A Yes, that's correct. 2 Q And Mr. Chung played a role in recommending 3 companies to go on trade missions, correct? 4 A I don't specifically recall, but he would have been 5 involved in the process of developing trade missions. 6 Whether or not he played a specific role in recommending 7 companies is, you know -- 8 Q Does this refresh your recollection that Mr. Chung 9 was recommended to his position by John Huang? 10 A You didn't ask me that before. 11 Q Well, okay. I'm asking it now. 12 A No, it does not assist me in concluding that at 13 all. 14 Q Mr. Huang did play a role in trade missions to 15 Asia, correct? 16 A That I don't recall. I don't recall very much 17 involvement by Mr. Huang in many initiatives that -- 18 certainly the ones that I was involved in. 19 Q And Mr. Huang in fact recommended participants on 20 trade missions to China. 21 A I can't tell you for sure that that's true. I just 22 don't -- 23 Q Did you ever have discussions with Mr. Huang? 24 A Maybe one or two. And I think I testified to this. 25 Q When did those one or two occur? 283 1 A I don't specifically recall. They would have been 2 in the context of meetings in the assistant secretary's 3 office to discuss some policy issue. I mean, those meetings 4 were not infrequent. 5 Q Who was the assistant secretary? 6 A At the time, the assistant secretary was, I think, 7 David Rothkopf. 8 Q Now, based on your exposure on those meetings with 9 Mr. Rothkopf, did you discuss China with Mr. Rothkopf and 10 Mr. Huang present? 11 A Did I discuss? I don't recall specifically that 12 I discussed. Did China come into the discussion? It may or 13 may not, but it may have been on the industrial sector. 14 Q Now, you've met Mr. Huang, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And based on your exposure with him, you determined 17 that he's a very intelligent man, didn't you? 18 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: It's relevant, Your Honor. May 21 I explain why? 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I don't really see it. His 23 opinion of Huang's intelligence is -- 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the Department of Commerce has 25 tried to portray Mr. Huang as an idiot who had nothing to do 284 1 with China. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, I'm familiar with that, 3 having been present during Mr. Huang -- I see your point, 4 Mr. Klayman. Why don't you move on to another area? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Based on your exposure with Mr. Huang, if I may ask 7 this question, Your Honor, he did have expertise in 8 international trade and finance, did he not? 9 A As I mentioned before, I wasn't specifically aware 10 of Mr. Huang's background, so my exposure to him was one of 11 someone that I didn't know particularly well. 12 Q Well, you did know that he had been the president 13 of Lippo Bank. 14 A That's not a correct statement. I had not known 15 what his position there was. 16 Q You subsequently learned that. 17 A I subsequently have heard that. 18 Q But you did know what Lippo Bank was, correct? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: I learned at some point what Lippo 22 Bank was, but it wasn't something that was familiar to me. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Lippo Bank is a major international bank, is it 25 not? 285 1 A Some, I guess, would conclude that. I assume that 2 it is. 3 Q In fact, it's a major bank particularly in Asia, 4 correct? 5 A I understand that it's in Asia and I know that it 6 has banking and other financial services operations. 7 Q Okay. Is that why Lippo was included on the China 8 trade trip, because as a bank it fell within the purview of 9 your section of the Commerce Department? 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I don't independently 13 recall Lippo being on the trade mission. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q But the Commerce Department was doing business for 16 Lippo on the trade mission. 17 A I'm not aware of anyone doing business for Lippo on 18 a trade mission. 19 Q Secretary Brown was doing business for Lippo on the 20 trade mission, correct? 21 A Not to the best of my knowledge. 22 Q He told you, did he not, that he was promoting 23 Lippo on that trade mission and that joint venture with 24 Entergy at the request of the Clintons, correct? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 286 1 MR. WEBSTER: Objection, Your Honor. No foundation 2 here whatsoever for these types of questions. The last three 3 have all been without foundation. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: If my esteemed counsel would have 5 read the record, he would have seen the foundation in the 6 testimony of Nolanda Hill. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: Secretary Brown did not tell me that. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did anyone tell you that? 11 A No. I did not know that. 12 Q Melinda Yee, did she ever discuss with you the 13 destruction of notes on the trade mission to China and 14 India? 15 A No. Not to my recollection she didn't. 16 Q Do you know if she discussed that with anyone? 17 A I don't know who she discussed anything with other 18 than -- 19 Q Have you ever -- I'm sorry. Go on. 20 A I said other than me, I don't know whom she 21 discussed it with. 22 Q Have you ever become aware that she destroyed notes 23 that she took on the trade missions to China and India? 24 MR. WEBSTER: Again, I objection on the foundation, 25 based on what this witness has testified. 287 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that I ever became aware 3 of that. I don't know that that's a fact. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You never heard that before? 6 A I don't have a recollection of ever hearing that 7 before. 8 Q You are aware that Rob Stein sometimes had get 9 togethers at his house, Rob Stein, the chief of staff to Ron 10 Brown? 11 A No, I'm not aware of that. Other than we all have 12 get togethers at our house. 13 Q Who is "we all"? 14 A You and me and others have get togethers at our 15 house, so if you mean -- 16 Q I don't. 17 A Well, the rest of us. I'm not aware that Rob Stein 18 did or did not have get togethers at his house. 19 Q Did you ever hear anybody say we're going to Rob 20 Stein's house to discuss Judicial Watch's case? 21 A No. I don't recall ever hearing such a thing. 22 Q Did you ever hear that from James Hackney? 23 A No. I don't recall ever hearing that from James 24 Hackney. 25 Q Have you talked to James Hackney about this case 288 1 since your last deposition? 2 A No, I have not talked to James Hackney about this 3 case since my last deposition. I saw James Hackney very 4 briefly at an event recently and he made a -- you know, an 5 aside. 6 Q What was the aside? 7 A He just sort of chuckled and said, you know, how's 8 Judicial Watch. 9 Q Did you ask him what he meant by that? 10 A No. No, I didn't. He didn't seem to be interested 11 in discussing it. 12 Q Did you respond? 13 A No, I think I just sort of chuckled, too. 14 Q Is Judicial Watch funny to you and Mr. Hackney? 15 It is to you. 16 A No. Mr. Hackney was funny to me. That's all. 17 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not 18 Mr. Whatley was RIF'd as they say in the federal government 19 after he testified in this case? 20 A I'm not sure if you're asking me about a causal 21 relationship? 22 Q No, I'm just saying after he testified in this 23 case, did Mr. Whatley lose his job at the Commerce 24 Department? Did you know that? 25 A I did know that -- yes, I did know that he lost his 289 1 job. 2 Q How did you learn that? 3 A Someone I knew at one point told me that Commerce 4 was -- you know, had decided to let go a hundred people. 5 As I recall the number, it was a hundred people. 6 Q Have you ever been threatened about providing 7 testimony in this lawsuit? 8 A No. I'm not sure I understand your question. 9 Q Do you know what a threat is? 10 A Yeah, basically. 11 Q Have you been threatened by anyone about testifying 12 truthfully in this case? 13 A No. No. Not that I'm aware of. 14 Q Have you ever been told that if you testify 15 truthfully it could hurt your career? 16 A No. 17 Q Are you of the opinion that if testified truthfully 18 that it could hurt your professional career? 19 A Actually, no, I'm not. I'm of the opinion that 20 I testify truthfully, which is the only way I know how to 21 testify, that it's what I'm required to do. 22 Q Has anyone ever said to you other than your lawyer, 23 if you just forget they can't hold you accountable for 24 telling the truth? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 290 1 MR. WEBSTER: Objection, Your Honor. There's no 2 basis for saying that and I really take that personally -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I said other than your lawyer. 4 MR. WEBSTER: -- and I think that's totally 5 unwarranted. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think it is, too. 7 Mr. Klayman -- 8 MR. WEBSTER: Totally -- 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, why is it unwarranted? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let me see if I can 11 understand this -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Why is that unwarranted? 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Wait a minute, Mr. Klayman. 14 Mr. Kearney, in terms of -- in reference to the 15 testimony you've given in this lawsuit, did anybody ever 16 give you, other than your counsel, did you ever have any 17 discussions with anybody about how you should testify? 18 THE WITNESS: Never, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever talked to Vernon Jordan about this 22 lawsuit that we're here on today? 23 A No. No. I have not. 24 Q Did he ever give you any pointers on how to 25 testify? 291 1 A No. No. 2 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. He's asked and answered. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Have you ever talked to Mack McLarty about this 6 lawsuit? 7 A No, I have not. 8 Q Do you know an Ira Sockowitz? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Ira 11 Sockowitz removed classified information from the Commerce 12 Department? 13 A I have no knowledge of such activity. 14 Q Do you know whether or not that occurred? 15 A I have no knowledge of any of that. 16 Q Do you know a Ginger Lew? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 Q How do you know Ginger Lew? 19 A She was my colleague at the Department of Commerce. 20 Q Have you had any contact with Ginger Lew since 21 you've left the Department of Commerce? 22 A Once I saw her. 23 Q Where did you see her? 24 A At a gala dinner, maybe six months ago. 25 Q What kind of dinner was that 292 1 A It was a dinner honoring, I think, West Germany. 2 A gala dinner at the Wolf Trap. I'm on the board and she 3 happened to be a guest there. 4 Q Have you ever discussed this lawsuit with Ms. Lew? 5 A No. 6 Q She never said anything like how's Judicial Watch? 7 A No. 8 Q Have you ever discussed Ira Sockowitz with Ms. Lew? 9 A No. Not to my recollection. 10 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Sockowitz removed 11 three CIA classified reports on China, Russia and India from 12 the Commerce Department? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: I think you asked me the question 16 before, if I knew of any documents removed by Mr. Sockowitz 17 and the answer is I'm not aware of any documents. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q No, I asked -- correct me if I'm wrong, I asked 20 you about satellite encryptions. Did I not ask you about 21 that? Do you know whether or not Mr. Sockowitz removed 22 classified satellite encryptions from the Commerce 23 Department? 24 A I'm aware of Mr. Sockowitz removing no documents 25 from the Department of Commerce or anywhere else. 293 1 Q Have you spoken with Mr. Sockowitz any time since 2 he left the Department of Commerce? 3 A I'm pretty sure I have. I've run into him. 4 Q Where did you run into him? 5 A I don't recall. I don't recall. 6 Q Did you discuss anything about the Commerce 7 Department when you ran into him? 8 A More than likely, since that's our only basis of 9 an acquaintance. I now recall -- I think I saw him in 10 conjunction with the first anniversary of the secretary's 11 death. 12 Q And where was that? 13 A There was a memorial held at a local -- I think it 14 was at a local church. I don't recall. But I spoke to him 15 contemporaneous to that time. 16 Q Did he ask you how's Judicial Watch? 17 A No, we were talking about the secretary. 18 Q Did he tell you he was in a bit of trouble over 19 removing documents from the Commerce Department? 20 A He did not tell me that. 21 Q Have you ever met anyone by the name of Barbara 22 Wise? 23 A Barbara Wise? The name is not familiar, which 24 doesn't mean I didn't meet her. 25 Q In and around Christmas of 1996, Ms. Wise was found 294 1 dead in the Commerce Department. 2 A I think I remember hearing of someone dying at the 3 department and I think it was after I had left, but I didn't 4 know the name. 5 Q Where did you hear that from? 6 A Well, from news accounts. 7 Q Did she work in your area? 8 A I don't think so. That's not a name I know. 9 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I object to this line of 10 questioning. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. I think we've exhausted it. 12 He doesn't know about her. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: She worked with Mr. Huang, 14 Your Honor. 15 MS. BRASWELL: That doesn't make it within the 16 scope, Your Honor. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it would certainly be part of 18 misconduct if there was any causal link. 19 MS. BRASWELL: To what misconduct? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: To what misconduct? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: The ultimate misconduct. 22 MS. BRASWELL: What's the ultimate misconduct in 23 the FOIA case, Mr. Klayman? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know. I'm entitled to ask a 25 question, though. 295 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Ask whatever question 2 you want about Ms. Wise, Mr. Klayman, and I'll rule on it if 3 there's an objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did you receive any information as to whether 6 Ms. Wise was involved in producing documents to Judicial 7 Watch? 8 A I don't know who Ms. Wise is. I don't know who she 9 is. 10 Q Did you receive any information as to -- okay. 11 That's enough. You never heard the name before. 12 A I may have heard contemporaneous with her dying, 13 but that's not a name that's familiar to me at all. I don't 14 recall that name. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Did there come a point in time when 16 you met -- 17 I'll show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 18 mark as -- Exhibit 24? 19 THE COURT REPORTER: Twenty-four. 20 (Kearney Deposition No. 24 21 was marked for identification.) 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Exhibit 24 is a letter of October 1, 1993 to 24 Mr. Yah Lin Trie. 25 A Mm-hmm. 296 1 Q From Jude Kearney. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Copy to Little Rock office. Yah Lin is Charlie 4 Trie, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And you sent this to him in Chang Chun, China. 7 A Mm-hmm. 8 Q C-h-a-n-g C-h-u-n, two words. 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q Remember this letter? 11 A I do remember this letter very vaguely. 12 Q And you were thanking him for having helped you on 13 your trip to China, correct? 14 A I wasn't thanking him specifically for having 15 helped me, I was thanking him for being there and for me, 16 someone who had never been to China before, being there with 17 someone who knew China. 18 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I object to questions on 19 this document. It does not pertain to any of the trade 20 missions at issue in this case. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it does, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: How? 23 MS. BRASWELL: Which trade mission? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it says on the bottom here, 25 Ms. Braswell doesn't ever read the document before she makes 297 1 an objection -- 2 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: In any event, "I look forward to 4 seeing you again either here in Washington or on my next trip 5 to the Far East." 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And what does that tell us? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: It's perspective. He went to the Far 8 East later on a trade mission to China. 9 MS. BRASWELL: That's a stretch, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That is a bit of a stretch. Ask 11 the question -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the point I'm trying to make -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, ask the question. 14 Please. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q The point I'm trying to make here is that this 18 document reflects an indebtedness by you to Mr. Trie, 19 correct? 20 A No, that's not what it reflects. 21 Q And a deep appreciation, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. And you wanted to return the favor some day, 24 correct? 25 A And the favor being one of basic friendship, but 298 1 that was it. 2 Q The favor being that you would some day return the 3 favor to Mr. Trie and, in fact, you had the opportunity to do 4 it when you included him on events on the trip to China in 5 the fall of 1994. 6 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 7 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did there come a point in time when you met a 11 Johnny Chung? 12 A Yes, there did come a point in time. 13 Q When did you first meet Johnny Chung? 14 A It was some time in the summer of 1994, as 15 I recall. 16 Q And how did you meet him? 17 A He contacted me at the request of someone at the 18 White House because he had expressed an interest in trading 19 or exporting this faxing technology which he later tried to 20 describe to me. 21 Q And who at the White House had told him to contact 22 you? 23 A Reta Lewis. 24 Q And who is Reta Lewis? 25 A Reta Lewis was in the Office of -- 299 1 Q Was she in the press department? 2 A No. Office of Political -- no -- 3 Q Office of Public Liaison? 4 A No, I don't think so. I don't recall the specific 5 office she was in, but she was an assistant to the 6 secretary -- no -- 7 Q Did you know -- I'm sorry? 8 A She was an assistant to the president. 9 Q And did you know Reta Lewis before Mr. Chung 10 contacted you? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q How did you get to know her? 13 A I met her at some -- it may have been at a Blacks 14 in Government meeting or something like that, but I met her 15 in the context of us going to an event related to government 16 service. 17 Q And what, if anything, did you do when Mr. Chung 18 contacted you about his fax company? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: He came by to see me and he explained 22 to me what his -- what his technology was and the fact that 23 he thought that it was cutting edge and the fact that he 24 thought that it was worth a lot of money if he could figure 25 out how to export it. 300 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Where did he come to see you? At the Commerce 3 Department? 4 A I don't recall that it was at the Commerce 5 Department. I don't recall. In fact, I don't think it was 6 the Commerce Department. He may have called me -- we may 7 have spoken on the phone. 8 I don't recall where I first met him, all I know is 9 that he described to me his product. It wasn't crystal clear 10 to me what his product was, but he expressed -- he had told 11 me that Ms. Lewis thought that he should contact me because 12 of my effort to assist services providers in the market 13 access area and specifically in Asia. 14 Q Did you meet with him at your house? 15 A No. He has never been to my house. 16 Q He has been to the Commerce Department, though, 17 correct? 18 A Yes. As far as -- yes, he's been to my office. 19 Q Several times, correct? 20 A I don't know about several times. That's not my 21 recollection, that he's been to my office several times. 22 Q At the time that he contacted you, you were aware 23 that he was a friend of the Clintons from Arkansas? 24 A No. 25 Q You knew he was from Arkansas, though? 301 1 A Mr. Chung is not from Arkansas, as best I know. 2 I was told that he was from California. 3 Q Who told you that? 4 A I think he did. In fact, I'm pretty sure he gave 5 me his business card. 6 Q And he told you he was a friend of John Huang? 7 A No, I didn't know -- I don't recall him telling me 8 that. 9 Q And tell me what happened after your initial 10 encounter over his fax business. 11 A I don't recall specifically what happened. He 12 told me -- he gave me -- I think at some point, he provided 13 me with some information describing this -- this business 14 and I think we must have discussed, you know, whether or 15 not his fax business could be -- he was concerned about 16 whether or not it could be deconstructed in a way that the 17 technology might be taken, if he wanted to just install it 18 and export it, he was concerned about copyright and patent 19 issues. 20 Q Did Mr. Chung tell you that he wanted to export his 21 fax business concepts overseas? 22 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 24 MR. KLAYMAN: It's just a foundational question. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's move on. 302 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask the question, please? Just 2 one question? 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's move on. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I throw myself on the mercy of the 5 Court? 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Come on. Let's go. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did Mr. Chung -- he did ask you if he could 9 participate on a trade mission to China, correct? 10 A No. I don't recall that he ever asked me if you 11 could participate on a trade mission to China. 12 Q He in fact did participate on a trade mission to 13 China, did he not? 14 A You're using the wording that you and I disagreed 15 on earlier. Mr. Chung came to China while the trade mission, 16 I think, was there. I think that's the timing of when he 17 came to China. 18 Q And you knew before you went on that trade mission 19 to China that Mr. Chung was going to show up there. 20 A He told me that he was going to show up there. 21 Q Right. And you knew that from the various meetings 22 you had with him, correct? 23 A I didn't have various meetings. I knew of that 24 either from the couple of meetings I had with him or from a 25 telephone call. 303 1 Q And, in fact, he told you that he wanted to try to 2 interest the Chinese in his fax business, correct? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That's the foundation I was trying to 7 lay. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Let's go. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that he told me 10 that he wanted to interest the Chinese in his fax business. 11 I think he probably wanted, as did other interested 12 exporters, in finding out whether or not there was a market 13 for his fax business. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q And the market was in China, correct? 16 A Well, he was interested generally in trying to 17 export this technology. 18 Q Right. But when he goes to China, he's interested 19 in marketing it with the Chinese. 20 A That's correct. That's correct. 21 Q And you invited him to appear on that trade mission 22 to China, did you not? 23 A No. As I recall, I did not invite him to appear. 24 As I recall, he contacted me specifically because of his 25 interest in going to China at the time of the trade mission. 304 1 Q Well, you didn't tell him not to come, did you? 2 A No. By no means. 3 Q In fact, you told him I look forward to seeing you 4 in China, something to that effect, correct? 5 A I don't recall what effect. 6 MR. WEBSTER: Your Honor, we went over all this 7 this morning and it's all just asked and answered -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: It's different -- 9 MR. WEBSTER: -- repetitive stuff and I object. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a different person, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's a different person, Johnny 12 Chung is different from John Huang. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: And Charlie Trie. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And Charlie Trie. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you ask anyone to conduct a security check on 17 either Mr. Chung or Trie before they went to China to join 18 the trade mission? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't, but by the same token 22 I didn't ask anyone to make security checks on any of the 23 other people who asked to participate in the trade missions. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Well, those people were vetted, as the terminology 305 1 of the department goes, correct? 2 A Mm-hmm. 3 Q And those people were vetted by the general 4 counsel's office, correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q By Mr. Sockowitz and Ginger Lew, correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Was Mr. Trie or Mr. Chung vetted? 9 A Mr. Trie was vetted in the sense that he had 10 requested hosting a meeting and that issue, using your 11 terminology was vetted. 12 Q Who vetted him? 13 A As that document which you showed me earlier 14 indicates, it was sent to Mr. Hackney's office, Ms. Moss 15 and to the general counsel's office. 16 Q What document is that? 17 A The one in which I was indicating that Mr. Trie had 18 expressed an interest in hosting an event. 19 Q And how was he vetted? 20 A I don't know. I sent the documents up and it went 21 from there. 22 Q Was he run through the Federal Bureau of 23 Investigation for a security check? 24 A I don't know how any participant was vetted in that 25 regard. 306 1 Q Was Mr. Trie vetted through any kind of national 2 security agencies? 3 A He may or may not have, it just wasn't part of my 4 job. 5 Q At the time that Mr. Chung or Mr. Trie asked to go 6 to China, do you know whether or not they had contacts with 7 Chinese individuals who have since been identified as being 8 part of Chinese intelligence? 9 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of any such contacts. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you ever been aware of any such contacts? 14 A That is not a fact that's familiar to me. 15 Q Have you ever met Wang Jun, an individual by the 16 name of Wang Jun? 17 A Yes, I did meet him. 18 Q You are aware that Mr. Wang Jun met with Ron Brown 19 at the Commerce Department? 20 A I have since learned that, yes. 21 Q How did you learn that? 22 A I think I learned it from media or from other 23 documents that have been shown to me in connection with this 24 set of interviews. 25 Q Now, you have met with Wang Jun, have you not? 307 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you met with Mr. Wang Jun in China? 3 A Yes. It wasn't me, a whole delegation of insurance 4 companies met with Mr. Jun. 5 Q What is it about -- 6 A Mr. Wang. 7 Q Mr. Who? 8 A Mr. Wang. 9 Q Mr. Wang Jun? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What was it about CITIC that threw it into the 12 purview of insurance companies meeting with him? 13 A It wasn't my recommendation, so I don't recall, 14 but I do know that they were interested in acquiring an 15 insurance license. At the time, only two Chinese companies 16 owned insurance licenses and one American company owned an 17 insurance license. 18 Q On the trade mission to China in the fall of 19 '94, or any trade mission subject to this case, was any 20 effort made by the Commerce Department or any other 21 government agency to determine whether or not individuals 22 that American companies met with were foreign intelligence 23 agents? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 308 1 THE WITNESS: And it's outside of my knowledge. 2 I just don't simply know. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever make such a request? That the 5 Commerce Department check out that before you put people in 6 contact, trade mission participants, with foreign individuals 7 that some federal agency determine whether or not the foreign 8 individuals were part of foreign intelligence? 9 A I didn't make such a request because it was outside 10 of my scope of importance, frankly, to these trade missions. 11 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 12 A I do not know whether anyone ever did. 13 Q Do you know whether anyone at the Commerce 14 Department ever raised a concern? 15 A I do not know. I'm not aware that it did or didn't 16 occur. 17 Q Did you yourself ever have such a concern, we're 18 taking these trade mission participants over, we're putting 19 them in contact with foreign people, we should check out to 20 see whether these foreign people are in fact intelligence 21 agents that are going to prey on our people? 22 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 23 MR. WEBSTER: Objection, Your Honor -- 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 25 MR. WEBSTER: -- the characterization. 309 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I never concluded as you've just 3 concluded that that might occur. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You never heard anyone express that concern? 6 A No. Don't recall that I ever heard that expressed. 7 Q And you don't know of any precautions that were 8 taken. 9 A I am not sure that I don't know of any precautions 10 that were taken. I mean, there were security details as part 11 of each of these trade missions. So I assume that they were 12 doing something. 13 Q Who was in charge of the security details? 14 A I think it was internal Commerce security and 15 possibly from time to time a Secret Service agent. I'm not 16 sure. 17 Q Where did the U.S. delegation stay in Beijing 18 during that trip to China? 19 A China World. 20 Q Was there a room in China World or rooms where 21 business people could go to send faxes or send telexes or 22 make communications? 23 A I'm not aware of such a room. I think business 24 people had to make their own arrangements. That's my 25 recollection, but I don't have a specific recollection. 310 1 Q If not a room, then a place? 2 A I think they had to make their own arrangements. 3 Q I'm sorry? 4 A I think they had to make their own arrangements. 5 Q You know Donald Forrest, do you not? 6 A Don Forrest. Yes, I do. 7 Q Okay. And he is actually -- he was head of the 8 China desk and still is, correct? 9 A I don't know if he still is, but he was. 10 Q And was he in charge of setting up special 11 facilities for trade mission participants to use to 12 communicate back to the United States? 13 A I don't know that that was his specific duty on 14 that trade mission. 15 Q Do you know how documents -- documents, I take it, 16 were generated on the trade missions such as China. 17 A Yes. 18 Q And who was in charge of keeping those documents? 19 Keeping and maintaining them? 20 A I think there were a number of people. I mean, 21 the itineraries were evolving on an hourly basis and, 22 depending on who was given that responsibility by either 23 Mr. Stein or Mr. Hackney, they would have been responsible 24 for getting out new versions of documents and presumably 25 taking in old ones. 311 1 Q And you saw people use laptop computer, Commerce 2 Department laptop computer, on the trade trip to China? 3 A I don't specifically recall laptop computers. 4 I know that we set up computers. 5 Q That's what I was talking about. Where did you set 6 up the computers? 7 A Oh, there was a control room for the delegation, 8 for the government delegation, but it wasn't -- 9 Q And that was set up in the China World Hotel? 10 A That was set up in whatever hotel we would have 11 been staying in. 12 Q And for the trade mission to China, where did you 13 get those computers to set up? 14 A I don't recall. They may have been shipped over 15 with us. 16 Q In fact, they were procured from Chinese sources, 17 weren't they? 18 A Oh, I don't know that to be the fact. I haven't 19 heard that before. 20 Q Who was in charge of setting up those computers? 21 A I don't know who was in charge of setting those up. 22 I was not. 23 Q Who, if anyone, was in charge to make sure that the 24 telecommunications lines were secure? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Your Honor, could I voice a 312 1 continuing objection to this line of questioning? 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No. This is an appropriate line 3 of questioning. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer. I assume 5 the security detail that was assigned to the trade mission. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, before we leave the 7 topic, did you make use of these computers when you were over 8 there? 9 THE WITNESS: No. I keep coming back to an 10 embarrassing refrain. I did not. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: But was it your understanding that 12 you had that they provided the capability to be in 13 communication with mainland United States while you were in 14 China by Internet or e-mail or otherwise? 15 THE WITNESS: The computers, I don't specifically 16 recall that that was a capability one way or the other. We 17 had access to phones to call back to the States. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Now, you're familiar 19 enough with a computer to know that it has a hard disk? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And that's its memory? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Oh, yes. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And it has a floppy disk access? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Did you look into that 313 1 room and see what these computers looked like? 2 THE WITNESS: I was in that room, but I did not 3 look at those computers one way or the other that I recall. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. So you don't know whether 5 or not they were wired so that a person could transmit a 6 message from that computer to the United States. 7 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I do not know. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you see anybody that you were 9 familiar with from your office using the computers? 10 THE WITNESS: I saw a number of people using them. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: From your office using them? 12 THE WITNESS: From my office personally or do you 13 mean the Commerce Department? 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: Commerce Department, yes. I mean, it 16 was -- as I recall it, it was manned, pardon the term, by 17 Commerce Department officials. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Now, do you know of 19 your own information whether before you left China any effort 20 was made to download those hard drives onto floppy disks and 21 bring them back to America? 22 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of that operation 23 from start to finish. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Were you aware of any arrangements 25 made with reference to the process that you can use a piece 314 1 of software to so-call wipe a hard disk? That is, to 2 obliterate it so that the person who uses it after you cannot 3 make access to it? 4 THE WITNESS: No. I never -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Did you see any written procedures 6 anywhere make reference to security with reference to these 7 computers? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall seeing any such. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Good job. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know whether or not any floppy disks were 13 brought back to the United States? 14 A I don't know one way or the other. That's not 15 something I would normally have checked on or normally in the 16 course of a trade mission have even heard about. 17 Q Do you know whether or not Chinese employees of 18 China World had access to the room where those computers were 19 kept? 20 A Well, in the strictest sense, I would imagine that 21 hotel management has access to any room within a hotel, but 22 my recollection is that on these trade missions, not 23 necessarily only for security purposes but for work purposes, 24 these rooms were never empty of Commerce Department 25 officials. 315 1 Q Did you play a role in requesting the meeting with 2 Mr. Wang Jun with Ron Brown? 3 A Play a role -- that sounds familiar to me, but I'm 4 not sure that I played a role per se. 5 Q Did you recommend it to Mr. Brown? 6 A To Mr. Brown, no. 7 Q Did you recommend it to Mr. Wang Jun? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you serve as a go between to relay -- 10 A No. 11 Q -- the -- 12 A Not that I recall. 13 Q Then what do you mean? 14 A I have a vague recollection that -- that someone 15 had recommended that meeting and I may have been asked to 16 assist or facilitate in conveying that request, but playing 17 an active role, I don't have a specific recollection. 18 Q Did you ask Ms. Melinda Yee to try to set up that 19 meeting? 20 A I don't have specific recollection of asking 21 Ms. Yee to set up that meeting. If anything, I may have the 22 opposite -- 23 Q At the time that you met with Mr. Wang Jun, Ms. Yee 24 asked you to set up the meeting? You said you thought the 25 opposite. 316 1 A A vague recollection that it's possible that it 2 occurred that way. I frankly don't recall specifically. 3 Q Ms. Yee speaks fluent Chinese, does she not? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Have you ever heard her speak Chinese? 6 A I don't recall that I've heard her speak Chinese. 7 Q When you met with Wang Jun -- how many times have 8 you met with him? 9 A I think I met with him twice and they were both in 10 the same context. They were both in the context of 11 insurance. Okay. Go ahead. 12 Q If you want to add anything -- 13 A Well, that's my recollection. 14 Q Are you aware that Mr. Wang Jun also plays a role 15 in a company called China Resources? 16 A I am not independently aware of that. 17 Q Have you ever heard of that, through whatever 18 source? 19 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: I think I heard you ask about China 22 Resources before, earlier today, and it wasn't familiar to me 23 then and it's still not familiar. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q You never heard of it? 317 1 A I'm not saying I haven't heard of it, I'm saying 2 it's not familiar to me. 3 Q China Resources is or was part owned by Lippo 4 Group. Does that ring a bell? 5 A No, it does not ring a bell. 6 Q Have you ever heard it reported that Mr. Wang Jun 7 is an intelligence agent of the Chinese? 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: I think I may have seen that in the 11 press. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q And in fact, that China Resources is a front 14 operation for Chinese intelligence? 15 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You've heard that? 18 A No, I don't remember that level of specificity. 19 China Resources is not familiar to me, so I don't know what 20 I've heard of it one way or the other. 21 Q Did you ever hear of China Aerospace? 22 A China Aerospace, same as with China Resources, not 23 familiar to me. 24 Q Do you know if any companies on the trade mission 25 to China in the fall of '94 met with China Aerospace? 318 1 A I don't know that one way or the other. 2 Q Do you know whether Bernard Schwartz and Loral met 3 with China Aerospace? 4 A I do not know what Mr. Schwartz's itinerary -- 5 personal itinerary was. 6 Q Do you know what he discussed on that trade trip to 7 China -- 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: With anyone? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: I do not independently know. I did 12 not have conversations with him. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did Ms. Melinda Yee sit in on meetings with 15 Mr. Schwartz and Chinese officials? 16 A You would have to ask Ms. Yee. I don't know. 17 Q You are aware -- 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on, Mr. Klayman. 19 It is now 5:30 and I think we have to figure 20 out where we are. But, first, I assume the reporter, to 21 put it mildly, needs a break. How much more do we have? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I think about an hour, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: About an hour? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Reporter, do you have an 319 1 obligation? Can you stay until 6:30? 2 Can we all stay until 6:30 and try to finish? 3 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, Your Honor. 4 MS. BRASWELL: Absolutely. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. But I think we owe our 8 reporter five minutes. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. All right. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The poor thing's been going since 11 3:00. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: An hour less five minutes -- or more 13 than five minutes. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video record at 16 5:31. 17 (A brief recess was taken.) 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video record at 19 5:41. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 21 reporter to mark as Exhibit -- 22 THE COURT REPORTER: Twenty-five. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: -- 25. 24 (Kearney Deposition No. 25 25 was marked for identification.) 320 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, this was originally 2 attached to Exhibit 13. I believe everybody has a copy of 3 it. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I believe they do. Certainly 5 I do. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. We'll make it a separate 7 exhibit, 25, but everybody has a copy in that context. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It was the first thing we did this 9 morning. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. This is a memorandum for 11 Ms. Melinda Yee from Jude Kearney, Office of Service 12 Industries, Josephine Ludolph, Director. It bears Bates 13 numbers 10BA1259 and 60. Two pages, the second page is a 14 memorandum to William Taylor -- the second page is a 15 memorandum from Jude Kearney to William Taylor, October 13, 16 1995. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Who is William Taylor? 19 A William Taylor, as of that date, I think was -- 20 I think he was chief of staff, chief of staff of the 21 Department of Commerce. 22 Q After William Ginsberg? Or before? Or rather some 23 time between Rob Stein and William Ginsberg? 24 A No, no. He never became chief of staff. He became 25 director -- counsellor to the secretary. Counsellor to the 321 1 secretary. 2 Q And in this memorandum, you're recommending that 3 Wang Jun have a meeting with Ron Brown, correct? 4 A Let me read this memorandum. I'm not sure that 5 that's what this memorandum is doing. This memorandum is 6 providing some information to Mr. Taylor about CITIC and 7 about Mr. Jun and it appears to be a reflection possibly of a 8 request to me to do so. 9 Q A request by Mr. Wang Jun. 10 A No, no, no. No. That is not what it appears to 11 be. 12 Q Well, look at the second paragraph. "Mr. Wang has 13 expressed through people in Beijing culminating in a request 14 to Melinda Yee a strong desire to have a meeting with the 15 secretary to discuss among other things ways in which U.S. 16 and Chinese enterprises can join to take advantage of 17 opportunities there." 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 20 or not Mr. Wang requested the meeting with Mr. Brown? 21 A No. We were talking about what this document 22 reflected and what this document reflects is a request to me, 23 not by Mr. Jun. 24 Q But by Melinda Yee. 25 A Yes. 322 1 Q And why was Ms. Yee making that request to you? 2 Do you know? 3 A Because I think she may have been -- I think 4 she may have been in China at the time. I'm not sure. 5 I'm not -- I don't specifically recall. 6 Q And a meeting subsequently took place between Wang 7 Jun and Ron Brown. 8 A I don't know -- 9 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor, I would object to any 10 questioning on this document. It occurs way after the trade 11 missions at issue in this case. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know that this meeting ever 14 occurred. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You do know that Ron Brown did meet ultimately with 17 Wang Jun at the Commerce Department. 18 A This is referring to a meeting -- 19 Q No. Independent of this document. 20 A Okay. 21 Q You are aware that Ron Brown did meet with Wang Jun 22 at the Commerce Department. At some point. 23 A Mr. Klayman, when you say I'm aware, I have heard 24 that. I was not in that meeting. 25 Q But you know that it occurred, correct? 323 1 A I don't know that it occurred. I don't have any 2 reason to believe it did not occur. 3 Q And you know that John Huang was in that meeting, 4 too. 5 A As I said to you before, I was not in that meeting. 6 Q No, I asked you about Mr. Huang. 7 A No, no. But I'm telling you, I was not in the 8 meeting, so I can't confirm for you who was in the meeting. 9 Q Do you have any knowledge that Mr. Huang was in the 10 meeting? From any source. 11 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Asked and answered. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: It wasn't answered, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Answer the question if you can, 14 Mr. Kearney. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of the specifics of 16 the meeting, I can't confirm that the meeting occurred. I 17 don't believe that this -- I don't know if this meeting ever 18 occurred, the meeting referred to in this Exhibit 25 ever 19 occurred. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did Mr. Forrest ever tell you that he sat in on a 22 meeting with Wang Jun, Ron Brown and John Huang? Donald 23 Forrest? 24 A I don't remember ever having a conversation with 25 Mr. Forrest about Wang Jun or -- 324 1 Q Do you have knowledge from any source that that 2 meeting occurred as I've just formulated it? 3 A You formulate it and I answered it. I don't have 4 an independent knowledge of that meeting occurring. 5 Q Do you know if anyone took notes during the 6 meetings between Wang Jun and Ron Brown? 7 MR. WEBSTER: Objection, Your Honor. Asked and 8 answered. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know of any such notes. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He just answered it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know what was discussed in any such meeting 13 that Wang Jun had with Ron Brown? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: I do not know what was discussed in 17 any such meeting, assuming it occurred. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Was a topic of proposed discussion whether barriers 20 to the export of encryption technology would be lowered to 21 allow the Chinese to acquire more of it? 22 A I have no knowledge of that particular subject ever 23 being discussed. I was not aware that that particular 24 subject ever was discussed. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 325 1 reporter to mark as Exhibit 26. 2 (Kearney Deposition No. 36 3 was marked for identification.) 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q It's a document from The Washington Post, the staff 6 writer is David Jackson and Lena Sun, "Liu and Johnny Chung: 7 Puzzling Financial Ties, Details Emerge in DNC Donor's China 8 Link." 9 A Mm-hmm. 10 Q Have you seen that article before? 11 A I have seen this article before. 12 Q You read it in The Washington Post? 13 A I believe I did. Yes. 14 Q Okay. Turn to the fourth page -- excuse me, the 15 fifth page of this article. Starting with the second 16 paragraph, "That August, Chung made his first substantial DNC 17 contributions, totalling $11,000, from his fax company's 18 account and his luck quickly turned for the better." 19 Are you aware that in August of '94 Mr. Chung made 20 a substantial DNC contribution in the amount of $11,000? 21 A I am not aware of that. 22 Q Did Mr. Chung ever tell you that? 23 A No, he did not tell me that. Not that I recall. 24 Q Is the first you learned of that when you saw it in 25 The Washington Post? 326 1 A I'm not sure that I learned of it, the first 2 I heard of it. 3 Q Okay. The second paragraph, "The same month as his 4 donation to the party, Democratic operatives introduced Chung 5 to then Deputy Assistant Commerce Secretary Jude Kearney, who 6 in turn suggested that Chung join a Commerce Department trade 7 mission to China, according to Chung's proposed testimony or 8 proffer to Senate investigators (Kearney said through an 9 attorney that he did not recall making that suggestion, but 10 did not dispute Chung's account.)" 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q Is that paragraph that I just read to you accurate? 13 A The paragraph is not accurate in totality and other 14 parts of it I can't confirm. It is not accurate in that 15 Mr. Chung was introduced to me by quote-unquote Democratic 16 operatives. I don't know who such people were, but I already 17 told you whom he was introduced to me by. 18 Q I'm sorry if I forgot, but who was that? 19 A Reta Lewis at the White House. 20 Q She's a political appointee, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Loosely speaking, she's a Democratic operative, 23 correct? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 327 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Anything else incorrect about that paragraph I just 3 read to you? 4 A The suggestion that Chung joined the Commerce 5 Department trade mission obviously is not correct. Well, 6 it is not correct, whether it's obvious or not, in that 7 Mr. Chung was never recommended as being a trade mission 8 participant. To my knowledge. I didn't recommend it. 9 Q You're quibbling with the language. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, not quibbling -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Don't characterize his testimony, 13 Mr. Klayman. I think he's trying to explain to us what the 14 nature of his disagreement is. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know who the sources were for this article 17 with David Jackson and Lena Sun? 18 A No, I do not. 19 Q So you're suggesting that you didn't suggest that 20 Chung join a Commerce Department trade mission, you just 21 didn't object when he said he was coming and he showed up? 22 A Well, it's more than -- it possibly is more, I 23 don't specifically recall in Johnny Chung's case, but let me 24 reiterate and if I haven't iterated it the first time, let me 25 state that our objective was to get U.S. legitimate 328 1 businesses into foreign markets, to allow them to do what 2 they do best in foreign markets, to increase the benefits to 3 our economy. That was our objective. And that comports in 4 my mind -- 5 Q I understand all those objectives. 6 A Okay. 7 Q All I'm interested in is whether or not you told 8 Chung if it was okay if he showed up in China on the trip. 9 A I don't remember telling him that it was okay for 10 him to show up. I remember telling -- I probably would have 11 told him that he could not be an official participant in the 12 trade mission, but that there would be ancillary events that 13 American business people would be invited to and would 14 attend. 15 Q And he could be one of them. 16 A Absolutely. 17 Q Third paragraph, "The trip was Chung's first visit 18 to China. Indirectly, it led to Chung's meeting with Liu and 19 in a previously unreported twist on the campaign finance 20 scandal to his hooking up with another Democratic fundraiser, 21 Yah Lin 'Charlie' Trie, who was indicted earlier this year on 22 charges that he illegally funnelled foreign money to the 23 Democrats." 24 Is there anything in that paragraph that you 25 disagree with? 329 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 THE WITNESS: It's also -- you know, I don't have 4 any reason to disagree with it. I don't know it to be true 5 one way or the other. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Next paragraph, "Chung made the trip at his own 8 expense and was not listed as a member of the official U.S. 9 delegation." That's correct, isn't it? 10 A I don't know at whose expense. It wasn't at -- 11 I don't know at whose expense he went. 12 Q And then it goes on and it says, "But Kearney met 13 him at the Beijing airport and escorted him to a restaurant 14 where they met Trie's wife, Chung's proffer said." That's 15 correct, isn't it? 16 A I don't recall -- I don't have an independent 17 recollection of that. 18 Q What does not having an independent recollection 19 mean? 20 A I'm just saying I don't specifically recall that. 21 It's possible. I don't -- I'm not disagreeing with it. 22 Q You did meet him at the airport, didn't you? 23 A I believe I met him at the airport. I believe 24 I did meet him at the airport. 25 Q And you escorted him to a restaurant where you all 330 1 met Trie's wife, correct? 2 A That part I don't have a specific -- I mean, first 3 of all, I didn't escort him to a restaurant. 4 Q All right. You took him to a restaurant. 5 A He and I may have gone to a restaurant together. 6 Q After you picked him up. 7 A No, after I picked him up, we would have gone to 8 the hotel and I don't recall if he stayed at the same hotel 9 as me or not. I don't recall what hotel he stayed in. 10 Q And then you picked him up later and took him to 11 the restaurant? 12 A The terminology is what I'm -- you know, I can't 13 confirm that I picked him up where. 14 Q I don't mean pick up in that way. I mean you got 15 him and you took him to the restaurant, right? 16 A He and I may have gone to a restaurant together and 17 we may have met with Trie's wife, yes. 18 Q You remember meeting Trie's wife. 19 A Oh, yes. 20 Q "Kearney then took Chung to a hotel where they met 21 then-Commerce policy official Melinda Yee." 22 That's correct? 23 A I can't confirm that that's correct. And I don't 24 know that I introduced Mr. Chung to Melinda Yee. So -- 25 Q That's not what it says there. "Kearney then took 331 1 Chung to a hotel where they met then-Commerce policy official 2 Melinda Yee." 3 That's correct, right? 4 A I don't have a -- you know, I can't confirm that 5 that's correct. It may be. It's not inconceivable. It's 6 not inconceivable. 7 Q Well, I'm not asking you whether it's 8 inconceivable. Surely you must remember picking Mr. Chung 9 up and taking him to a hotel where you met Melinda Yee. 10 You remember that, don't you? 11 A I do not remember that. I do not remember that. 12 Q Do you remember meeting with Ms. Melinda Yee and 13 Charlie Chung in each other's presence? 14 A Johnny Chung. 15 Q Johnny Chung. 16 A I have a vague recollection of that. I don't 17 recall the mechanics of that meeting coming together. 18 Q "Chung later attended functions where he met with 19 government officials and executives from the United States 20 and China." 21 That's correct? 22 A I don't know what functions Mr. Chung attended, 23 actually. I don't now recall whether he was at one of the 24 functions that I was at. 25 Q "And had his picture taken with Commerce Secretary 332 1 Ron Brown." 2 You do remember that, don't you? 3 A I do not recall that. 4 Q Next paragraph, "After the mission, Trie and his 5 Macao-based financier, Ng Lap Seng," as you've called Mr. Wu, 6 right? 7 A Mm-hmm. 8 Q Who you met several times, correct? 9 A I testified to that. 10 Q "Tried to broker a deal with Chung in which they 11 would buy the rights to market his fax business in China." 12 You are aware of that, correct? 13 A I am not. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. This whole line of 15 questioning is outside the scope. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q "But Chung did not bite at the offer." 20 You're aware that Chung didn't bite at the offer, 21 correct? 22 A No, I'm not aware of that. 23 Q Have you ever heard of a Liu Chaoying? 24 A You may have asked me this before, the name is not 25 familiar to me. 333 1 Q All right. Well, turn to page 3. 2 A Page 3. 3 Q The paragraph that says "Member of privileged 4 class." 5 A Okay. 6 Q "At the center of this particular tale of campaign 7 finance and international aerospace conglomerates is Liu 8 Chaoying," L-i-u C-h-a-o-y-i-n-g, "a woman whose family 9 pedigree puts her in the first ranks of Beijing's privileged 10 class. Liu's father, General Liu Huaquing," H-u-a-q-u-i-n-g, 11 "Was until his retirement last fall, China's most senior 12 general, and one of the seven members of China's all-powerful 13 ruling party standing committee. Liu's elder brother, Liu 14 Zuoming," Z-u-o-m-i-n-g, "has been a high ranking official at 15 the Chinese navy's Equipment Study Center, and her 16 ex-husband, Pan Yue," Y-u-e, "has been a top officer with the 17 state agency that controls China's 625 billion in government 18 assets. Pan is also a prominent spokesman for hard line 19 nationalist policies." 20 Does that refresh your recollection as to whether 21 you know who Liu Chaoying is? 22 A It refreshes basically my recollection that I do 23 not know who Liu Chaoying or however that's pronounced is. 24 Q Did you ever see Mr. Chung in the contact of a 25 Chinese woman when you were in China? 334 1 A Not that I recall. I mean, there were lots of 2 Chinese people in Beijing, so he probably was around Chinese 3 women, but I don't have a specific recollection of a woman 4 that he was with. 5 Q Did you ever have any contact with a General Ji 6 Shengde, J-i, new word S-h-e-n-g-d-e, Chief of Military 7 Intelligence? 8 A No. 9 Q For China? 10 A No, not that I'm aware of. 11 Q Did you ever have any contact with Xiong Guangkai, 12 X-i-o-n-g last name G-u-a-n-g-k-a-i, Deputy Chief of Staff of 13 the People's Liberation Army and General Ji's boss? 14 A No, not that I'm aware of. 15 Q Do you know whether either Mr. Trie or Mr. Chung 16 had contact with those individuals -- 17 A I do not know. 18 Q -- on the trade trip to China or otherwise? 19 A I do not know either of their itineraries and whom 20 all they did and did not meet. 335 1 E V E N I N G S E S S I O N 2 (6:00 p.m.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever discuss with -- how many times did you 5 actually ever talk to John Huang in your entire life? 6 A It's hard to say, but it was -- it was very few 7 times. You know, you asked me earlier if I had a 8 recollection or an impression of Mr. Huang as being an 9 intelligent man, which I didn't and can't comment on. I have 10 recollection of him being relatively quiet. 11 Q During the time that you were at the Commerce 12 Department, no one ever told you that Mr. Huang was walled 13 off from dealing with Asian matters, did they? 14 A No. I don't remember knowing that at the time that 15 I worked with him. 16 Q And specifically, neither Mr. Rothkopf nor 17 Mr. Garten, Jeffrey Garten, told you that. 18 A I don't recall any such restriction being shared 19 with me. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 21 reporter to mark as Exhibit 27. 22 (Kearney Deposition No. 27 23 was marked for identification.) 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Huang ever visited 336 1 an office owned by Stephens, Inc. across the street from the 2 Commerce Department? 3 A I have learned that only since I've left Commerce 4 and I don't remember exactly how. It may have been in a news 5 report. 6 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Huang 7 about what he was doing at the Commerce Department? 8 A No more, no less -- no. I don't recall any 9 specific conversations with him about what he was doing. 10 Q What did you have any conversations with him about? 11 A As I mentioned before, we would have met in 12 his office or in the assistant secretary's office to 13 discuss initiatives that we would have been all involved 14 in. 15 Q And you did discuss initiatives that concerned 16 China, I take it? 17 A I don't specifically recall whether or not we 18 discussed issues specific to China. We discussed -- 19 Q Were you aware at any time you worked at the 20 Commerce Department that Mr. Huang had a top secret security 21 clearance? 22 A I was not aware of what his security clearance was. 23 Q Were you aware that he was being briefed by a 24 security official? 25 A No. He didn't share that with me. 337 1 Q Were you aware that he had access to classified 2 information? 3 A Aware? No. I assumed that most of did. 4 Q Did you ever hear anyone say that Mr. Huang 5 cannot sit in on meetings where trade trips to China were 6 discussed? 7 A I never heard that that I recall. 8 Q Do you know whether Mr. Huang was specifically 9 excluded from any aspect of Commerce business? 10 A I don't recall there being any restrictions that 11 I was aware of. 12 Q Was it known at the Commerce Department that 13 Mr. Huang was recommended by Hillary Clinton for the job? 14 A I did not how Mr. Chung became a political 15 appointee. 16 Q Mr. Huang. 17 A Mr. Huang. 18 Q You said Chung. 19 A Oh, I'm sorry. 20 Q I'm showing you Exhibit 27. Have you ever seen 21 this article before, "China Money Linked to Clinton 22 Campaign"? 23 A I don't believe so. I don't recall seeing it. 24 Q Did you ever meet an Antonio Pan or have any 25 contact with Antonio Pan? 338 1 A I believe I did meet Mr. Pan. 2 Q Where did you meet him? 3 A I believe that I met him -- I met him in my office 4 and it may -- and I don't recall the circumstances. 5 Q In your office that Commerce Department? 6 A At the Commerce Department. 7 Q Do you know what his business position was when you 8 met him? 9 A I understood him to work for Daihatsu, Mr. Trie's 10 company. 11 Q You knew that he was a former Lippo Group official? 12 A I'm not sure I knew that at the time. I'm not sure 13 that I knew what his background was. 14 Q Did you learn that after that, after you met with 15 him? 16 A I don't know that I learned it any time shortly 17 after meeting him. I have heard it since then. 18 Q Where did you hear it? 19 A Probably in media accounts. 20 Q Now, since the campaign finance scandal came to 21 national attention, you remember it was around the fall of 22 1996, correct? Roughly speaking. 23 A Roughly speaking. 24 Q You've kept up to date on what's going on by 25 reading the newspapers, correct? 339 1 A I wouldn't say kept up to date, to the extent that 2 I'm aware of what's been going on, it is through reading the 3 newspapers. 4 Q Right. And you are aware that some of the names 5 that were mentioned in this controversy, the campaign 6 finance, China-gate controversy, that you had contact with 7 some of these people. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Notably Charlie Trie. 10 A Right. 11 Q Notably Johnny Chung. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Notably John Huang. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Notably Wang Jun. 16 A Mm-hmm. 17 Q Notably Antonio Pan. 18 A Yes. 19 Q Notably Melinda Yee. 20 A Okay. 21 Q Correct? Okay. And you are aware that these 22 articles have implicated, at least in terms of the articles, 23 these individuals in alleged wrongdoing. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 340 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I've tried to parse the 2 articles to see what the articles are alleging, I've just 3 simply read them. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Okay. But you are aware that allegations are being 6 made that these individuals participated in illegal 7 fundraising and some of them even possibly espionage. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 MR. WEBSTER: Objection also. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You are aware of that? 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 13 THE WITNESS: Espionage, I'm not aware of that. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You are aware that it has been written by Bob 16 Woodward and others that John Huang provided classified 17 documents to the Chinese. 18 A I am not -- I don't have that recollection. 19 Q Are you aware of anyone having been alleged to have 20 been working with Chinese intelligence? 21 A I'm aware that those allegations have been attached 22 to a number of the people whose names you just rattled off a 23 minute ago. 24 Q Okay. And you're aware that campaign finance law 25 violations were also attached to a number of these people. 341 1 A Yes. 2 Q Now, at any time since you started following this 3 controversy or scandal, whatever you want to call it, in 4 October of '96, have you ever gone to see any federal 5 authorities or any authorities, government authorities, and 6 said, hey, I've got information about these people, I'd like 7 to assist you 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Beyond the scope. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: I have never felt like I had the type 13 of information that could assist them. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Your dealings with Charlie Trie you didn't consider 16 relevant? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: Relevant to what? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Ongoing investigations. 22 A I don't consider it particularly relevant because a 23 number of the things that I'm hearing in the press about 24 Mr. Trie were not things that were the basis of his and my 25 conversations or my information, my knowledge. 342 1 Q You don't consider your contact with Charlie Chung 2 to be relevant to ongoing investigations? 3 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You said Charlie Chung. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Johnny Chung. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Johnny Chung. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I have any relevant 8 information about the allegations about any of these people. 9 I don't believe I have anything. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You have read that Ng Lap Seng, Mr. Wu, has been 12 reported to be a member of the Communist Party in China? 13 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 15 THE WITNESS: I answered before that I was not 16 aware of that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Now that you are aware of it, do you feel obliged 19 to contact authorities about any investigations that are 20 being conducted? 21 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I don't know of Mr. Wu's 24 connections one way or the other in China. I don't know of 25 any espionage that Mr. Trie, Mr. Chung or anyone else was 343 1 engaged in. I don't have information that would be relevant 2 to those questions. I don't know of their involvement in the 3 allegations which I understand are being made. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q So the bottom line is that you didn't feel that you 6 had information that could help any federal investigations of 7 these individuals. 8 A I am not saying that I didn't have information 9 because the truth of the matter is I have given what 10 information I have had, just as I am giving it to you, I have 11 given it to federal authorities on Capitol Hill. 12 Q My question was you never offered it up, you were 13 subpoenaed. 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. I think the record 16 speaks for itself, Mr. Klayman. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever reviewed the Government Reform and 19 Oversight Committee's sixth report entitled "Investigation of 20 Political Fundraising Improprieties and Possible Violations 21 of Law," an interim report of November 5, 198? 22 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 24 THE WITNESS: I didn't mean to cut you off, but, 25 no, I have not reviewed it. 344 1 MR. KLAYMAN: At page 2 of this, I'd be happy to 2 show you a copy of it, I'll ask that it be marked Exhibit 28. 3 (Kearney Deposition No. 28 4 was marked for identification.) 5 THE WITNESS: Page 2. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Mm-hmm. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q First paragraph, last sentence, "Trie associates 9 such as Ernie Green, Charles Duncan and Jude Kearney have 10 testified, but their testimony is plagued either with 11 inconsistencies with the testimony of other witnesses and 12 documentary evidence or by frequent disturbing lapses of 13 memory." 14 Do you take issue with that statement? 15 A I'm not sure I take issue with it. I'm not sure 16 that there is a plague certainly on my testimony and I can't 17 speak to others. 18 Q So you find your lapses of memory disturbing? 19 A I'm not sure that I'm having lapses of memory. 20 Q Who is Charles Duncan? 21 A Charles Duncan -- actually, you know, there are a 22 number of Charles Duncans in Washington, but I believe that 23 this is a reference to Charles Duncan who works at the White 24 House in the Office of Presidential Appointments. 25 Q Turn to page 2, second paragraph. 345 1 A Mm-hmm. 2 Q The middle of that paragraph, "Trie was allowed to 3 bring a Chinese national, Wang Jun, who was the head of a 4 Chinese weapons company, to a February 1996 coffee with the 5 President when other major donors were not allowed to bring 6 guests to the coffees." 7 A Which -- you said page 2? 8 Q Page 1. I'm sorry. Middle of the paragraph. 9 A Okay. 10 Q "Trie was allowed to bring a Chinese national, 11 Wang Jun, who was the head of a Chinese weapons company, to 12 a February 1996 coffee with the President, when other major 13 donors were not allowed to bring guests to the coffees." 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q You're aware that Wang Jun attended a coffee in 16 February '96 with the President? 17 A I'm not aware. I've heard that in the media. 18 Q "Trie received the personal attention of a Deputy 19 Assistant Secretary of Commerce, Jude Kearney, who introduced 20 Trie to numerous American business contacts." 21 You don't disagree with that statement, do you? 22 A Numerous business contacts -- I think it's more 23 expansive than the facts. 24 Q How so? 25 A My recollection is of introducing Mr. Trie to 346 1 Mr. Green when they were looking for -- and I think at 2 Mr. Trie's request -- when they were looking for someone 3 expert in investment banking and I think I introduced him to 4 Mr. Moon when they were thinking of a construction -- a 5 buildings project, I think that was. And my belief was that 6 Mr. Moon had some basic understanding of construction. 7 Q Do you remember attending a reception at Charlie 8 Trie's apartment at the Watergate where Mr. Wang Jun was 9 present? 10 A I do not remember attending that. 11 Q You remember a reception at Mr. Trie's apartment, 12 though? 13 A Yes. You and I discussed it earlier. 14 Q Right. You just don't remember whether Wang Jun 15 was there. 16 A I don't have a recollection of him being there. 17 Q That reception occurred in and about the period of 18 February 1996, correct? 19 A Which reception? 20 Q At Charlie Trie's apartment at the Watergate. 21 A I don't recall when it was. 22 Q Turn to page 53. 23 A Okay. 24 Q "Tour. Wang Jun's tour of Washington, D.C." 25 A Mm-hmm. 347 1 Q "Wang entered the United States at San Francisco on 2 February 1, 1996. It is unknown where Wang traveled between 3 February 1st and February 5th. On February 5th, Charlie Trie 4 scheduled a reception for Wang and other CITIC officials at 5 his Watergate apartment. Little is known about this event or 6 who attended, other than the fact that Jude Kearney was 7 scheduled to attend." 8 Footnote, "Calendar for Jude Kearney February 5, 9 1996." 10 "Kearney denied that he had any knowledge of Wang's 11 attendance at the coffee and also denied that he even knew of 12 any connection between Charlie Trie and Wang June." 13 "Question: Are you aware of any relationship 14 between Mr. Trie and CITIC? 15 "Kearney: Only what I have read in the papers. 16 "Despite the fact that Kearney testified that he 17 was unaware of any relationship between Trie and CITIC, 18 Kearney was scheduled to attend the CITIC reception at Trie's 19 apartment. Kearney claimed to have no recollection of the 20 reception, including whether he attended." 21 Footnote 392, "Id. at 84." 22 Did your calendar list an attendance at Trie's 23 apartment on that day? 24 A I don't know. I don't recall. 25 Q "The following day, February 6th, Wong had three 348 1 significant appointments. First, he met with Commerce 2 Secretary Ron Brown. Wang and Brown had met earlier at least 3 once at the Shangri-La dinner and possibly during Brown's 4 1995 trade mission to China. It is unknown how this meeting 5 was arranged or who specifically attended the meeting. The 6 2nd, Wang met with Ernie Green and his Lehman Brothers 7 associate at Green's offices." 8 You set that meeting up with Ernie Green and Wang 9 Jun, did you not? 10 A No, I did not. 11 Q You knew of it, though, didn't you? 12 A No, I was not aware of that meeting. I don't 13 recall having any awareness of that meeting. 14 Q You do recall discussing at a reception Secretary 15 Brown meeting with Wang Jun, do you not? 16 A Excuse me? I recall what? 17 Q Discussing at a reception, any reception, a meeting 18 between Ron Brown and Wang Jun. 19 A I don't recall that discussion. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask -- these 21 are excerpts that I read from the House report that 22 I previously identified. 23 I'll show you what has been marked as the diary of 24 John Huang and ask that it be marked in this deposition as 25 Exhibit -- 349 1 THE COURT REPORTER: Twenty-nine. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Twenty-nine. 3 (Kearney Deposition No. 29 4 was marked for identification.) 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q I ask you to turn your attention to -- this is the 7 diary of John Huang. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Turn to Bates number JH94071. It is an entry which 10 is on Wednesday, August 17, 1994. 11 A 071 -- okay. 12 Q There's an entry, 3:30 p.m., that lists Jude 13 Kearney, DAS INF/TD. 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q You had a meeting with Mr. Huang on that day? 16 A I don't have a specific recollection of 17 the meeting, but it looks like a meeting was scheduled 18 at least. 19 Q Based on the other entries on this page, are you 20 able to tell me what the meeting was about? 21 A No, I am not. 22 Q Do you have any idea what the meeting was about? 23 A I have no recollection of the meeting. 24 Q You're not denying you went to a meeting with 25 Mr. Huang on that date at that time? 350 1 A No, I'm not denying it. 2 Q But then there's a line that goes down to Chuck and 3 Nancy. Do you know who Chuck is? 4 A Let's see. The date of this -- 5 Q Could it have been Chuck Meisner? 6 A Yes, it could have been. 7 Q And Nancy, Nancy Linn Patton? 8 A I don't know. I mean, it could have been. 9 Q Did they meet with you on that date? 10 A No. Not that I recall. I mean, I don't recall 11 this date, so -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what I'll ask 13 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit -- 14 THE COURT REPORTER: Thirty. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Thirty. 16 (Kearney Deposition No. 30 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q This is a memorandum to Bob, Ari, Fran, copies to 20 Laura, Richard, Stephen and Jay, from Eric, dated January 13, 21 1994, 5:15 p.m., Trade Mission to Russia. 22 You went on the trade mission to Russia, did you 23 not? 24 A No. 25 Q You did not? 351 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know an Eric Silden? 3 A Not from the name. 4 Q Well, how would you know him if not from his name? 5 A No, I'm just saying the name isn't familiar. It's 6 possible that I met him, but I don't know who it is. 7 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 8 A It is not familiar to me at all. 9 Q The second paragraph, "Sally Painter at Commerce," 10 do you know who Sally Painter is? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q She worked with Melissa Moss, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Office of Business Liaison, they assisted in 15 selecting candidates for trade missions, correct? 16 A Yes, that's my understanding. 17 Q Second paragraph, "Sally Painter at Commerce called 18 to ask for a list of candidates for a trade mission to 19 Russia." 20 Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 21 or not the DNC provided lists of candidates for trade 22 missions? 23 A In what way? 24 Q In any way. 25 A No. I don't know what the relevance of DNC is to 352 1 this document. 2 Q This document comes from the Democratic National 3 Committee. 4 A Oh, I don't know -- I didn't know that. 5 Q It says DNC at the bottom. 6 A That doesn't indicate to me where it came from. 7 Q But seeing a document like this, did you ever see 8 similar documents generated by the DNC talking about sending 9 lists of trade mission participants to the Commerce 10 Department? 11 A Never I've seen a document like this. 12 Q Do you know of anybody by the name Ari at the 13 Commerce Department? Have you ever known anyone by the name 14 of Ari? 15 A It's not familiar. 16 Q Anybody in Office of Business Liaison whose name 17 was Ari? 18 A That name isn't familiar to me. 19 Q Fran? 20 A I knew a Fran, but she wasn't in the Office of 21 Business Liaison. 22 Q Where was she? 23 A She was a DAS in Office of Export, USFCS. 24 Q I didn't hear you. 25 A USFCS, Foreign Commercial Services. 353 1 Q And what was her last name? 2 A I don't remember Fran's last name. 3 Q Did you know a Laura, Richard, Stephen or Jay that 4 had anything to do with trade missions at the Commerce 5 Department? 6 A Those names -- you know, a single name -- don't 7 help me, so I don't know. 8 Q Look down to the fourth paragraph, "Ari will use 9 the Belgian trade mission list as a base of names to be 10 augmented by additional names that he feels relevant to 11 Russian trade. It was suggested that he contact Reta Lewis 12 to determine which names on the Belgian list will be included 13 in that delegation so that they are not also submitted to 14 Commerce for the Russian delegation." 15 Refresh my recollection. You testified previously 16 about contact with Reta Lewis. 17 A Yes. 18 Q And what was that about, again? 19 A I met Reta Lewis in the context of us both being 20 new political hires, new government hires, and got to know 21 her on that basis. And, as I mentioned before, she at some 22 point introduced or recommended that Mr. Chung contact me 23 regarding his faxing interest. 24 Q And she recommended that Johnny Chung be allowed to 25 participate on events during the China trade trip? 354 1 A She didn't recommend that to me, that I recall. 2 Q She mentioned to you that Mr. Chung wanted to 3 participate on some events, even if he wasn't formally a 4 participant? 5 A I don't think that she called me specifically about 6 Mr. Chung. I think Mr. Chung called me. 7 Q And she told you -- Mr. Chung told you that Reta 8 Lewis had given your name to him? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And that he wanted to go on the trade trip, at 11 least appear and participate in some events? 12 A No, I think as I testified, he contacted me because 13 he had expressed to -- apparently to Ms. Lewis his interest 14 in exporting his fax technology and that was the basis of his 15 contact with me. 16 Q Reta Lewis would from time to time recommend a 17 participant on a trade mission, correct? 18 A Not to me. 19 Q But you knew she did to others. 20 A No, I did not. I was not aware that she 21 recommended. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 23 reporter to mark as Exhibit 31. 24 (Kearney Deposition No. 31 25 was marked for identification.) 355 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 3 A It is not familiar, but I can't say with any 4 specificity that I haven't seen it. 5 Q This is a memorandum, Office of Business Liaison, 6 Week in Review No. 5, to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter, OBL 7 Weekly Activities, August 6, 1993. 8 Look down at section I.3, "Gail is working with Ira 9 Fishman," who was Ira Fishman? 10 A Ira Fishman was an appointee at Commerce who worked 11 in the Office of -- I think he may have been an assistant to 12 the secretary. 13 Q "And Jude Kearney in generating a list of project 14 and trade finance people." 15 That's a correct statement, correct? 16 A I can't say contemporaneously whether that's a 17 correct statement. 18 Q What do you mean by "contemporaneously"? 19 A Well, I mean, I can't say whether or not -- I 20 can't say now whether or not this was a true statement by Ms. 21 Painter at the time. I don't have any reason to believe 22 that it's not. 23 Q Turn to the second page. 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q The bottom, II.D, "Business/Congressional District 356 1 Lists. We contacted Rick Boylan of the DNC about the 2 possibility of creating a list of businesses within each CD," 3 congressional district. "Rick ran the idea past Alice 4 Travis, Director of Intergovernmental and DNC Affairs," you 5 know an Alice Travis, don't you? 6 A I do not. The name isn't familiar. 7 Q "And she balked at it as being too cumbersome on 8 DNC staff. The list would be a good resource, however, John 9 is going ahead with creating a list of California businesses, 10 since the state has become a major project for Ronald H. 11 Brown. Do you think we should have Rob Stein request that 12 the DNC start compiling the list other key states, i.e., 13 Illinois, Michigan and Ohio," et cetera. 14 Do you know Rick Boylan? 15 A The name is not familiar to me. No. 16 Q Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 17 or not the DNC provided names to the Commerce Department of 18 companies? 19 A It does not refresh my recollection. 20 Q Turn to the last page, XII. 21 A Okay. 22 Q Miscellaneous -- 23 A XII? 24 Q Yes. 25 A Okay. 357 1 Q Part F. "I will be meeting with Eric Silden of the 2 DNC on January 24th to discuss key business types that we 3 want for the database and other interactions that should take 4 place." 5 The Department of Commerce kept a database of 6 Democratic National Committee names of companies, correct? 7 A I don't have that understanding. I was not aware 8 of that. 9 Q Did you ever discuss with Melissa Moss how trade 10 mission participants were chosen? 11 A With Melissa Moss, one on one? No. We discussed 12 how we arrived at the final set of trade participants in 13 larger meetings. 14 Q And you were aware that Ms. Moss had been a 15 fundraiser at the Democratic National Committee at the time? 16 A I was not aware that Ms. Moss had been a fundraiser 17 at the Democratic National Committee. I was aware that she 18 had worked at the Democratic National Committee. 19 Q With Ron Brown. 20 A Yes. Yes. 21 Q And you were aware that part of Ron Brown's duties 22 and responsibilities as chairman was to raise money, correct? 23 A Aware? No. It didn't occur to me one way or the 24 other. I assumed it. 25 Q You are aware that Ms. Moss took DNC donor lists 358 1 when she left the Department of Commerce -- when she left the 2 Democratic National Committee? 3 A No, I'm not aware of that. 4 Q In fact, those donor lists were used at the 5 Commerce Department to help select trade mission 6 participants, correct? 7 A I am not aware of that. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 10 THE COURT REPORTER: Thirty-two. 11 (Kearney Deposition No. 32 12 was marked for identification.) 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q These are lists of documents produced in this 15 lawsuit. 16 A Mm-hmm. 17 Q I turn your attention to the sixth document in, a 18 memorandum of Sally Painter from Reta Lewis, Political 19 Affairs. 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q Re Trade Missions. 22 A Mm-hmm. Okay. 23 Q That's the same Reta Lewis that we've been talking 24 about, correct? 25 A Yes. 359 1 Q It states, "I recently met with Mr. Gerald McGowan, 2 a law partner at Lukas, McGowan, Nace & Gutierrez, fellow 3 Clinton classmate, early Clinton campaign supporter and DNC 4 managing trustee. Mr. McGowan is interested in going on the 5 trade mission to India or Indonesia. 6 "The Office of Political Affairs," I'm reading the 7 last paragraph, "is recommending Mr. McGowan for involvement 8 in the trade mission and I would appreciate you considering 9 him. Thank you." 10 Have you ever seen this memo before? 11 A Not that I'm aware of. 12 Q Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 13 Reta Lewis of the White House was recommending trade mission 14 participants on the basis of political campaign 15 contributions, in whole or in part? 16 A It does not refresh my recollection. 17 Q Since the time you began to work for the Commerce 18 Department, have you ever had any contact with anyone at 19 Kissenger Associates? 20 A Kissenger & Associates? 21 Q Kissenger Associates. Henry Kissenger. 22 A Oh. Not that I'm aware of. 23 Q Have you had any contact, you or anyone else, with 24 the Al Haig Merchant Banking Joint Ventures, Energy and 25 Telecom Company? 360 1 A As in the former Defense Secretary? 2 Q Yes. 3 A Not that I'm aware of. I might have without being 4 aware of it. 5 Q Do you know whether or not Henry Kissenger's 6 company and/or Al Haig's company played any role on the trade 7 mission to China? 8 A I do not know one way or the other. 9 Q You do know, however, that David Rothkopf when he 10 left the Commerce Department, went to work for Kissenger 11 Associates? 12 A Yes, I am aware of that. 13 Q How did you find that out? 14 A He announced it before he left. 15 Q What did he say? 16 A I don't remember what he said, but the gravamen of 17 what he said was he was leaving Commerce and that he was 18 going to work for Kissenger Associates. 19 Q Who happen to have as a client China. 20 A He didn't mention that. 21 Q Are you aware that Mr. Rothkopf when he left the 22 Commerce Department left with a cache of documents? 23 A No. I'm not aware one way or the other. 24 Q Did he tell you that? 25 A No, he did not tell me that. 361 1 Q And took them to Kissenger Associates? 2 A I'm not aware of that. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the next document be 4 marked as the next exhibit. 5 THE COURT REPORTER: Thirty-three. 6 (Kearney Deposition No. 33 7 was marked for identification.) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q This is a document produced from the files of the 10 Democratic National Committee. 11 A Mm-hmm. 12 Q The first page, sheet 1; second page sheet 1 at the 13 top. 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Third page sheet 1 at the top. 16 A Mm-hmm. 17 Q And then it's called donor file. 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q Then stamps DNC Bates number 4303326 through and 20 including 4309631. 21 A Mm-hmm. 22 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 23 A No. 24 Q Look at the pages, if you would. 25 A Okay. These documents, none of them are familiar. 362 1 Q Okay. Maybe they'll refresh your recollection. 2 Look at the Bates number 4303306. 3 A 4303306 -- what Bates number? 4 Q 433306. 5 A Oh, okay. 6 Q Look at the bottom of the page. 7 A Yes. 8 Q About two-thirds of the way down, Commerce South 9 Africa trip is listed? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Charlie Trie, Little Rock is listed? Do you see 12 that? 13 A I see those. 14 Q This is a DNC document, correct? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Well, this is a DNC document. 17 A Okay. 18 Q You are aware that the DNC kept on its computers 19 data as to whether or not donors went on trade trips. 20 A I was not aware of that. 21 Q And the South Africa trade trip is the one that's 22 subject to this case, correct? 23 A I don't have any reason to believe that it's not. 24 Q Look at the next page. 25 A Okay. 363 1 Q Also a DNC document, 4309631. 2 A Mm-hmm. 3 Q First entry, Larry Bowles. Do you know Larry 4 Bowles? 5 A The name isn't familiar. 6 Q Telephone number Haliburton 125IN, RNC gala 7 committee. The CEO went to Russia with Ron Brown. ** spoke 8 to Larry and he's looking at it, processing. Not going to 9 happen and the RNC dollars came from Dick Cheney's old 10 presidential campaign coffers. 11 Does this refresh your recollection as to whether 12 the DNC was tracking donors that went on trade missions to 13 both the Democratic Party and RNC? 14 MR. WEBSTER: Can I -- I've just got object. 15 You can't refresh a recollection where the witness has 16 testified he had no knowledge. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He hasn't said he had his