IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x : JUDICIAL WATCH, INC. : : Plaintiff, : : v. : Civil Action No. : 95-0133 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, : : Defendant. : : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x Washington, D.C. Tuesday, April 20, 1999 Deposition of JUDE KEARNEY a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above-entitled action, before Rita M. Hemphill, Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, in the Chambers of Magistrate Judge John M. Facciola, U.S. District Court, 3rd and Constitution, N.W., Washington, D.C. commencing at 10:08 a.m. 2 APPEARANCES: On Behalf of the Plaintiff: LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ. Chairman and General Counsel Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 On Behalf of the Defendant: MARINA UTGOFF BRASWELL Assistant United States Attorney U.S. Attorney's Office 555 Fourth Street, N.W. 12th Floor Washington, D.C. 20001 ELISE B. PACKARD, ESQ. Office of the General Counsel U.S. Department of Commerce 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20230 On Behalf of the Deponent: J. KENLY WEBSTER, ESQ. Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge 2300 N Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20037 Also present: Thomas Fitton, President, Judicial Watch Jason Aldrich, Esq., Judicial Watch 3 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION BY: PAGE Counsel for Plaintiff 10 KEARNEY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 12 Transcript of Deposition of Jude Kearney October 8, 1996 21 No. 13 Memorandum dated August 10, 1994 to Jim Hackney and Melissa Moss from Jude Kearney, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Service Industries and Finance 57 No. 14 Delegation List, Presidential Business Development Mission to China August 26 to September 3, 1994 67 No. 15 Memorandum dated August 22, 1994 from David L. Mercer to Martha Shoffner 75 No. 16 Memorandum dated June 21, 1994 to the Democratic National Committee, attention David Mercer, from Charlie Trie and Jody Webb 98 No. 17 Notice of deposition duces tecum with subpoena 129 No. 18 (Under seal) No. 19 Minority Donor List 244 No. 20 Democratic National Committee Managing Trustee Events and Membership Requirements 253 No. 21 Washington Post article "Donor List at Commerce Called Personal Document" June 1, 1997 259 4 KEARNEY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 22 Washington Times article "Ex-Commerce Official Testifies DNC Sent Trip-for- Donations List, Backs Key Part of Public Interest Firm Judicial Watch's Suit" 264 No. 23 Asian-Pacific-American appointees list 281 No. 24 Letter dated October 1, 1993 to Yah Lin Trie from Jude Kearney 265 No. 25 Memorandum for Melinda Yee from Jude Kearney, Office of Service Industries, Josephine Ludolph, Director, and memorandum to William Taylor from Jude Kearney dated October 13, 1995 319 No. 26 Washington Post article, "Liu and Johnny Chung: Puzzling Financial Ties, Details Emerge in DNC Donor's China Link" 325 No. 27 Article, "China Money Linked to Clinton Campaign" 335 No. 28 Report of Government Reform and Oversight Committee, "Investigation of Political Fundraising Improprieties and Possible Violations of Law," dated November 5, 1998 344 No. 29 Diary of John Huang 349 No. 30 Memo dated January 13, 1994, Trade Mission to Russia 350 No. 31 Memorandum, Office of Business Liaison, Week in Review No. 5, to Melissa Moss from Sally Painter, OBL Weekly Activities, August 6, 1993 354 No. 32 Lists of documents 358 5 KEARNEY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: No. 33 Donor File 361 No. 34 List 365 No. 35 Memorandum dated March 30, 1994, Minority Exporters, to Tracey Rancifer 367 No. 36 Memorandum dated April 9, 1994, Contacts for Latin America, to Tracey Rancifer 374 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This is 3 the deposition of Jude Kearney taken by the counsel 4 for the Plaintiff in the matter of Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 v. U.S. Department of Commerce in the U.S. District Court 6 of Columbia, Case No. 95-0133, held in the chambers of 7 Judge John Facciola at the U.S. District Court for the 8 District of Columbia, on this date, April 20, 1999 and 9 at the time indicated on the video screen, which is 10 10:08 a.m. 11 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am the videographer. 12 The court reporter today is Rita Hemphill from the firm of 13 Diversified Reporting. 14 Will counsel now introduce themselves? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, General Counsel and 16 Chairman of Judicial Watch. 17 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, Judicial Watch. 18 MR. WEBSTER: My name is Kenly Webster and I am 19 representing Jude Kearney. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Marina Braswell from the U.S. 21 Attorney's office, representing the Department of Commerce. 22 MS. PACKARD: Elise Packard, Office of the General 23 Counsel, Department of Commerce. 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter please 25 swear in the witness? 7 1 Whereupon, 2 JUDE KEARNEY 3 was called as a witness and, after having been duly sworn, 4 was examined and testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, if I could raise a 7 preliminary matter? I don't know if you want it on or off 8 the record. 9 We filed yesterday a motion for leave to depose 10 Johnny Chung. Your Honor should have a copy of that. 11 We hand delivered a copy on Ms. Braswell. 12 I was wondering if Your Honor would entertain 13 shortening the briefing schedule for that. It's a very 14 simple, straightforward motion. 15 One of the reasons that we filed it very 16 quickly is because Mr. Chung is reported to be in the 17 District of Columbia on April 27th and 28th, testifying 18 before the Government Reform and Oversight Committee, and we 19 believe that as a matter of economy for all parties, 20 including Mr. Chung, if we could get a court ruling on that 21 to see if we could depose him in and around that time period 22 it would save everybody time and expense. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Ms. Braswell, any objection? 24 MS. BRASWELL: I have no objection, Your Honor. 25 Shortening it -- 8 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No objection to shortening the 2 time within which to respond? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Right. I do have an objection to 4 the taking of the deposition. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, when can you get me your 6 opposition? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Well, we're in deposition today, 8 tomorrow. I have a court hearing Thursday morning. I'm not 9 sure who's going to be available on Friday. I'll do it 10 Thursday afternoon. By the end of the day? 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: While the Court is in recess on 12 Friday, I plan to be here, so I could -- 13 MS. BRASWELL: But it will be easier if I just get 14 it in before the Friday. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Good. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason -- and I don't know how 17 Your Honor is going to rule, I trust in our favor, obviously, 18 but if not, we'd like enough time to take it to Judge 19 Lamberth before Mr. Chung testifies on the 27th. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Let's look at the calendar. 21 The 27th is Tuesday? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: The 27th is Tuesday. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Yes, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you would hope to -- if he's 25 testifying on Tuesday, when do we hope to do it? 9 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I would hope to be able to get the 2 issue to Judge Lamberth on Friday, even if the Court's not 3 open. That way he could at least take it home. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So you want me to rule 5 on Thursday, as soon as I get it. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Thursday and I'll prepare either 7 nothing or something in anticipation so I can get it in 8 quickly. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, let's see if we 10 can work with that schedule, but I guess -- have you all 11 spoken to Mr. Chung's counsel and is he all set up for that 12 date? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We have not spoken with Mr. Sun, but 14 we intend to do so. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 16 MS. BRASWELL: I don't know if Mr. Chung's counsel 17 is even aware of this request. Perhaps Mr. Klayman can speak 18 to that. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: He's not aware of it. No. 20 MS. BRASWELL: It seems to me, Your Honor, then, 21 that in fairness to Mr. Chung his counsel should be 22 identified and he should be given an opportunity to weigh 23 in on whether or not he should be deposed. 24 I can speak for the Department of Commerce, but 25 not for Mr. Chung. It seems elementary fairness that his 10 1 attorney should be aware of this request. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, we'll be very happy to 3 get that to Mr. Chung as soon as we can locate where Mr. Sun 4 is located. However, in the past in this case, we have 5 received court leave to depose individuals. The court has 6 then provided time for the individual to quash. I don't 7 suspect there's going to be any problem. 8 Based on reports, Mr. Chung's counsel is quite 9 cooperative and so is Mr. Chung. In fact, Janet Reno, 10 Attorney General, has given permission for Mr. Chung to 11 testify. I don't see why in the interests of justice the 12 Justice Department would oppose this. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I would appreciate if you 14 would give whatever you file to me by hand to his lawyer. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We will -- 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And I will make contact with his 17 lawyer and see what his position is -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We will attempt to -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- if he wants time to file an 20 opposition and we'll have to work around the schedule. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: -- locate him. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Or I can hear him orally before 23 the deposition begins. We can work something out. But let's 24 try and accommodate everybody so we can this done. 25 Sir, you had something? 11 1 MR. WEBSTER: One matter of courtesy, if Your Honor 2 please. There's one individual present who didn't introduce 3 himself. I'd appreciate knowing who -- 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Who are you, sir? 5 MR. ALDRICH: Jason Aldrich, attorney for Judicial 6 Watch. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Aldrich is an attorney with 8 Judicial Watch. 9 MR. WEBSTER: I see. Thank you, Your Honor. 10 My preliminary matter goes to two things. 11 One, Mr. Klayman, I'd like to make this 12 contribution to Judicial Watch. I'm sure you haven't had 13 many contributions to the charitable institution, but I'd 14 return the check for the witness fee here. 15 Second, if Your Honor please, Mr. Kearney will 16 testify that he has no documents responsive to the request 17 for subpoena duces tecum, that was the case at the time of 18 his original deposition where he was deposed rather 19 extensively, but there is a question in my mind about 20 documents because in the course of representation of him, 21 I have acquired some documents here in connection with my 22 activities as counsel and I want to make sure that I am 23 correct in concluding that those documents would not be 24 producible. They are documents that have been basically on 25 the table in other proceedings, but which ones those are is 12 1 of some protective interest to me as his counsel, which ones 2 I'm interested in, which ones I'm focusing on. 3 In addition, I have some transcripts and 4 technically the transcript, I think, would be responsive to 5 the language of the document request here. I have 6 Mr. Kearney's transcript, for example, which I have marked 7 up, and I assume that, again, that would be excluded from the 8 requirement for Mr. Kearney to produce documents. 9 As he will testify, he has searched his files, and 10 I'm sure Mr. Klayman will ask him considerable questions 11 about it, and has no documents responsive to the subpoena, 12 took none from the department, destroyed none and so forth. 13 So I would like to make sure that the documents 14 I have acquired as his counsel since representation, and I 15 did not represent him at the initial deposition, I came into 16 representation thereafter, that they are excluded from the 17 requirement of production. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me suggest this, Your Honor. 19 Perhaps Mr. Webster could prepare a list of those documents 20 and serve them upon us. If there's anything which obviously 21 falls within the scope then we can argue about it at that 22 time. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Do you have those documents with 24 you now? 25 MR. WEBSTER: I believe I do, Your Honor. Again, 13 1 it's the selection of which documents that I have asked for 2 copies and are focusing on that is an interest to me to 3 protect as his counsel, so I'm really not interested in 4 producing a list of what I do have and by implication what 5 I don't have. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Why do you interpret the subpoena 7 duces tecum to require production from you if it's served 8 upon Mr. Kearney? 9 MR. WEBSTER: Well, my experience, Your Honor, is 10 that counsel could make an argument that the files of a 11 lawyer belong to the client and therefore as his agent and 12 amanuensis that I therefore hold the documents in his name. 13 And I would take the opposite position, but in fairness to 14 Mr. Klayman and in order to avoid the kinds of questions that 15 were raised by Judge Lamberth in his memoranda of the 22nd of 16 December, I thought I would present the issue to the Court 17 and ensure that I was taking the correct position. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I think maybe the best way 19 to do this, the way I would like to do it, is if you would 20 collect those documents and file them with me in camera and 21 under seal. I will look at them and I will compare them 22 against the scope of the subpoena and we'll return to that 23 issue in a moment. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Now, can we exclude transcripts from 25 that, Your Honor? Because I -- you know -- 14 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't know what the subpoena 2 says. I've never seen it. 3 MR. WEBSTER: Well, it doesn't say anything about 4 transcripts. It just says all documents. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: May I see the subpoena? 6 MR. WEBSTER: Or maybe Mr. Klayman could agree that 7 they don't have to be produced. Any and all documents, 8 things that refer to, relate in any way to the Department of 9 Commerce trade missions. Well, some of the transcripts 10 involve questions concerning that. I would think that -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So the point is not 12 academic. Mr. Klayman already has the transcript, right? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Not necessarily, Your Honor. There 14 are other proceedings where Mr. Kearney has testified and it 15 would be very helpful for us to see what exists. We may not 16 know every instance where he has testified. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Has Mr. Kearney testified in any 18 other place besides this deposition? 19 MR. WEBSTER: He has provided information to the 20 Congress, yes, Your Honor, in connection -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Was that transcribed? Was that 22 transcribed? 23 MR. WEBSTER: Yes. In one case, at least, it 24 was, Your Honor, but it's a public record. It's been 25 released to the public. It's something that Judicial Watch 15 1 could obtain if they wanted to obtain, along with everybody 2 else. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And that's the only other instance 4 where he testified under oath about these matters that are 5 identified in the subpoena? Trade missions, communications, 6 lists, so forth? 7 MR. WEBSTER: As Your Honor knows, well, there were 8 two instances where the Congress talked to him and he was 9 under oath. There have been internal investigation by the 10 department, but that testimony was not under oath nor 11 transcribed. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The department being the 13 Department of Commerce? 14 MR. WEBSTER: That's correct, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So your concern is that there may 16 be documents that have come into your possession by virtue of 17 being his counsel -- 18 MR. WEBSTER: Correct. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: -- that may be responsive to the 20 subpoena. 21 MR. WEBSTER: Because of its breadth. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Because of its breadth, but you 23 fear that disclosing them would tend to abrogate the 24 attorney-client privilege? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, that's correct, Your Honor. 16 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Or the attorney work product 2 privilege. 3 MR. WEBSTER: That's correct. And particularly 4 since these documents are known to the parties of this case, 5 I see no need to divulge either the document titles 6 themselves or the documents themselves, some of which I have 7 only copies that I've marked up and underlined, focused and 8 written comments on. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, what were the source of the 10 documents in the first place? Someone gave them to you? 11 MR. WEBSTER: Yes. Yes, Your Honor. Someone with 12 an interest in the matter would have given them to me. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So someone gave these documents to 14 you in your capacity as Mr. Kearney's attorney. 15 MR. WEBSTER: That's correct. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: While examination was being made 17 of him by someone else? 18 MR. WEBSTER: In some occasions, yes, and in some 19 occasions I asked for copies of certain documents that 20 I wanted to see. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, it would appear that under 22 Rule 26, you are asserting that those documents are 23 privileged. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Correct. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The way we handle this usually is 17 1 by a privilege log. Now, privilege logs I find not terribly 2 useful because they don't tell me enough of what I want to 3 know. 4 What I would prefer to do is, as I say, you make 5 a tender of them to me in camera and under seal and I will 6 review them and I will then hear you and I'll hear from 7 Mr. Klayman and Ms. Braswell as to their -- whatever you want 8 to say as to why their disclosure to Mr. Klayman would tend 9 to violate either privilege. 10 MR. WEBSTER: Could we exclude the transcripts from 11 that, Your Honor? I understand from talking to government 12 counsel that nobody prior to me has raised the question of 13 whether a transcript has been covered by the subpoena, but 14 if that's the case, then the assumption of the parties in 15 this matter to date has been that they are not covered by 16 the subpoena for whatever reason. But in any event, I seem 17 to be the first one to raise that question. 18 It seems to me kind of silly for me as a sole 19 practitioner to go reproducing Mr. Kearney's transcript, 20 et cetera, the transcripts here, and therefore I would like 21 to have that excluded from the requirement. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Would you have any objection, 23 since this testimony was given in public, of making your copy 24 available to Mr. Klayman so he can copy it and then he would 25 return it to you? As a matter of professional courtesy? 18 1 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, Your Honor. My only objection 2 is based on the fact that I have one copy and I've marked it 3 up and made notations on it. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, who has the 5 original copy of that that's unmarked? Did you have to buy 6 it from the reporter? 7 MR. WEBSTER: The original copy would be in the 8 hands of the investigating committee of the Congress, in this 9 case, the United States Senate. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Have you seen that, Mr. Klayman? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know if I've seen the one 12 that he's referring to. I know that one exists. 13 MR. WEBSTER: There's only one. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: At the Government Reform and 15 Oversight Committee. However, Your Honor, what I would 16 recommend is do a privilege log as well as an in camera 17 submission. That way we'll know if we already have it, but 18 it clearly is covered by the subpoena. 19 Matters have occurred since Mr. Kearney's 20 deposition. It was this lawsuit which to some extent 21 triggered later investigations by Congress, so that's the 22 reason why these later produced documents are important. 23 We didn't have them at the time of the first deposition. 24 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. So we shall proceed in 25 that fashion. Any documents that on their face appear to be 19 1 covered by the subpoena but as to which a claim of either 2 attorney-client privilege or work product is being made, 3 including transcripts, will be submitted to me in camera and 4 under seal and I will look at them. 5 MR. WEBSTER: Can we exclude at least depositions 6 taken in this case by Judicial Watch? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Of course. Of course. 8 MR. WEBSTER: All right. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 10 MR. WEBSTER: So we're only talking about 11 depositions or inquiries outside the scope of this 12 proceeding. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's right. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for clarification, Your Honor, 15 they will submit a list with that, so we can see that? 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: As I understand it. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Good. 18 MR. WEBSTER: But the list itself will be submitted 19 in camera? Is that correct? Under seal? 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: In camera and under seal. 21 MR. WEBSTER: Do you want copies at that time, 22 Your Honor, of the documents or do you want -- 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Unless they're voluminous. Can 24 you make copies of them? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, sir. The only -- I'm only 20 1 hesitating on the question of my -- whether I have any clean 2 copies of anything. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, do the best you can. 4 MR. WEBSTER: But you want my notations as well? 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, I don't want your notations, 6 no, but if there's no way to do it, you have your notations, 7 I'll figure out a way how to expurgate them. 8 MR. WEBSTER: Thank you. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, one small point. If 10 these documents fall within the scope of the subpoena, then 11 respectfully we should have a copy of the privilege log. It 12 shouldn't be in camera. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I agree, but let me take a look at 14 it and then we'll see. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's very hard to make these 17 decisions abstractly without seeing them. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Are we otherwise ready to 20 proceed? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Did we swear the witness in 22 yet? 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I think you did. 24 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes. 21 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Mr. Kearney, this is a continuing deposition from 3 your first deposition on October 8, 1996. You're aware of 4 that, correct? 5 A I'm aware of that. 6 Q Okay. At that deposition on October 8, 1996, did 7 you testify truthfully in all respects? 8 A I did to the best of my ability and recollection. 9 Q I'm going to show you a copy of that deposition 10 transcript, but before I do, I'm going to ask you what 11 you mean by "to the best of my ability and recollection." 12 Is that a qualifier to whether you testified truthfully or 13 not? 14 A No, it's an explanation that at that deposition, as 15 I will at this deposition, I made the absolute best effort to 16 be truthful, honest and complete. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Since this is a continuing 18 deposition, we're going to mark this exhibit consecutively 19 and call it Kearney Exhibit 12 and I'll ask that it be marked 20 Kearney Exhibit 12 with the date of this continuing 21 deposition. This is a transcript from your first deposition 22 on October 8, 1996. 23 (Kearney Deposition No. 12 24 was marked for identification.) 25 MR. WEBSTER: Could I see what the document is? 22 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Before I ask you this question, have you ever been 3 subject to lapses of memory for any reason other than, you 4 know, ordinary course of the way people forget things or have 5 you ever had medication or anything to that effect that might 6 impair your memory? 7 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Compound and vague. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to get it out on 9 the table, Your Honor, in a way that the witness can 10 understand. 11 MR. WEBSTER: I object also. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, since you gave this 13 testimony in October -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yes? 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: First of all, have you been 16 diagnosed by any doctor with any disease that would indicate 17 that you had had difficulty remembering? 18 THE WITNESS: No. Not that I recall. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Have you noticed in living your 20 life that you have become any more forgetful than you used to 21 be? 22 THE WITNESS: Not noticeably. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman? 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q And just to follow up on Your Honor's well-phrased 23 1 questions, was that the case before your deposition on 2 October 8, 1996? 3 Were you ever diagnosed as having any kind of 4 medical condition that would impair your memory? 5 A Not that -- no, I have not. 6 Q Were you on medication at the time of your first 7 deposition on October 8, 1996 such that that could have an 8 impact on your memory? 9 A No. I was not. 10 Q In the course of your various job evaluations 11 during your long and esteemed career, has anyone ever 12 evaluated you as having a bad memory? 13 A No. Not that I recall. 14 Q Your memory is pretty good, isn't it? 15 A My memory is probably about average. 16 Q How old are you? 17 A I'm 41. 18 Q I'm showing you what has been marked as Exhibit 12. 19 I turn your attention to page 36. 20 A Okay. 21 Q Line 10. 22 A Mm-hmm. 23 Q Where I ask the question, "Did you ever have any 24 contact with the Democratic National Committee or any kind, 25 written communications, oral communications, e-mail, 24 1 whatever?" Do you see that question? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And then you give your response. 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Lines 13 to 17. 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q "No written or oral communications. I would have 8 been in contact with persons who worked for the DNC because 9 I knew them and they were friends of mine, but not with 10 regard to DNC business or Department of Commerce business." 11 A Yes. 12 Q Is that a completely accurate statement? 13 A It is -- it was then and it is now -- my 14 recollection of my interaction with the DNC. There were 15 people at the DNC whom I knew before they were at the DNC 16 with whom I was in contact. 17 Q I then asked you the question, "Did you ever have 18 a discussion with anyone at the Democratic National Committee 19 about companies that were invited on trade missions?" That's 20 lines 18 to 20. 21 And you responded at line 21, "No. I did not." 22 Does that remain a completely accurate statement? 23 A That remains my recollection. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me. You didn't read the full 25 response. 25 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm reading line 21. 2 MR. WEBSTER: You interrupted him and he went and 3 made a further response on the next page. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm getting to that, 5 Mr. Webster. 6 MR. WEBSTER: Well, you asked him whether this is a 7 full and complete answer and that was not his complete 8 answer. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I have an instruction 10 to Mr. Webster to -- he'll have an opportunity to 11 cross-examine. 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Rephrase -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: To not interrupt. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go on. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me rephrase it because of the 16 interruption. 17 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Lines 18 to 20 -- 19 I'm going to go through it, but please don't 20 interrupt. You'll have an opportunity to cross. 21 MR. WEBSTER: Be fair. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What page are you on, Mr. Klayman? 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Page 36. 24 And that, Your Honor, is the way we've gone through 25 this with this case, where counsel are able to signal to the 26 1 witness a response and I ask that that kind of speaking 2 objection not be made, that Your Honor give an instruction. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Well, we're going to 4 comply with the Federal Rules and to preserve an objection 5 all that is necessary is a brief statement of the grounds for 6 it. 7 Okay. Let's see if we can keep moving within the 8 parameters set forth by that rule. 9 MR. WEBSTER: My only point, Your Honor, is he did 10 not correctly read the testimony when he asked the question. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that's -- 12 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Let's go back over it as carefully 13 as we can and do it the way -- read it exactly as it appears, 14 if you will, Mr. Klayman. Go back over that question. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand, but that is not 16 accurate, what Mr. Webster said, and my problem is giving an 17 objection which is a speaking objection which then tips the 18 witness off on how to respond. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I understand. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. And I ask for an instruction 21 not to do that. I take it Your Honor has given one. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I agree with that instruction. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Okay. I'm reading at line 22, "Did you ever have 27 1 any -- " I was interrupted and the response was: 2 Answer: "That I recall. I don't recall ever 3 having such a meeting, or discussion." 4 Was that an accurate statement when you made it on 5 October 8, 1996? 6 A That was an accurate statement. 7 Q Does it remain an accurate statement today? 8 A To the best of my recollection, I still do not 9 recall having such conversations. 10 Q At line 3 on page 37, "Do you recall ever having 11 received an e-mail or any other kind of communication to that 12 effect?" 13 And you answered, "No. No." 14 Was that an accurate statement when you made it 15 October 8, 1996? 16 A The "No" was referring to recall and the answer is 17 still I do not recall any such communication. 18 Q Where on line 5 does it say you don't recall? This 19 is page 37, transcript of October 8, 1996. 20 A No, I was reading your question, "Do you recall." 21 Q Okay. But the answer is clear, "No. No." 22 Correct? 23 A No, I do not recall. 24 Q And you stand by that statement today? 25 A That's correct. 28 1 Q Line 6. Question: "During the time that you were 2 with the Department of Commerce, do you recollect ever having 3 any communication -- written, oral, electronic or whatever -- 4 with the White House concerning participants on foreign trade 5 missions." 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q Answer: "I do not recall any such communication." 8 Was that a correct statement when you made it 9 October 8, 1996? 10 A Yes, it was. 11 Q Does it remain a correct statement today? 12 A It does. 13 Q Question on line 12: "Does that mean that no such 14 communications ever occurred, or just that you don't recall?" 15 Answer: "My recollection is no such communication 16 ever occurred between myself and anyone at the White House." 17 Was that answer correct on October 8, 1996? 18 A That was my recollection then and it's my 19 recollection now. 20 Q It remains correct today? 21 A That's my recollection now. 22 Q Question at line 16: "During the time that you 23 were with the Department of Commerce, did you ever have 24 communication with anyone other than a potential company 25 that would go on one of these trade missions over who to 29 1 select? In other words, anyone besides the White House or 2 the DNC?" 3 Answer: "You mean at the Department of Commerce?" 4 Question: "Anywhere." 5 Answer at line 2, page 38: "We would have 6 discussed the companies, as I think I said before, at the 7 department regarding the sectors that we were -- that we were 8 interested in emphasizing in that particular mission. So 9 I would have had conversations with people at the 10 department." 11 Does that remain a complete and accurate response 12 as of today? 13 A Yes. To the best of my recollection. 14 Q And that response was correct when made on 15 October 8, 1996? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Everything I just read to you in the last series of 18 question was accurate on October 8, 1996 and remains accurate 19 today? 20 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. That was my recollection then. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q I turn your attention to page 113 of the 30 1 transcript. 2 A Okay. 3 Q I'm turning to line 18. 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q Wherein I asked the question, "You obviously were 6 aware that some of the companies that had been recommended 7 for these trade missions had donated monies to the Democratic 8 National Committee or President Clinton. You were aware of 9 that, weren't you?" 10 Answer, going on to page 114: "I definitely do not 11 recall being aware of that." 12 Was that answer completely accurate on October 8, 13 1996 when you made it? 14 A At the time that I made that statement, that was 15 exactly correct. I did not recall that there were any -- my 16 understanding of that question related back to discussions 17 within the Department of Commerce. 18 Q It related back some 70-some pages? Is that what 19 you're saying? In this transcript? 20 A Well, I'm looking at this current discussion and 21 you're talking about during the time at the department and 22 I'm just telling you that my recollection is that that 23 conversation didn't take place. 24 Q Well, the question is very simple. The question 25 says "You obviously were aware that some of the companies 31 1 that had been recommended for these trade missions had 2 donated monies to the Democratic National Committee or 3 President Clinton. You were aware of that, weren't you?" 4 You understand that question to mean -- I'm just 5 simply asking whether you were aware that companies that had 6 been recommended for trade missions had donated monies to the 7 Democratic Party or President Clinton. That is the question, 8 is it not? 9 A Is that the question? That's what you're asking 10 me? 11 Q Well, based on the plain wording of the question. 12 A Okay. 13 Q Okay. You understand that to be the question, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So consequently, when you answered, "I definitely 17 do not recall being aware of that," you were responding that 18 you were not aware that companies who had been recommended 19 for the trade missions had donated monies to the Democratic 20 Party or President Clinton. That's what you responded to on 21 page 114, lines 1 and 2, correct? 22 A I'm not sure that I was responding -- I think what 23 I was responding to is that, number 1, I don't recall that 24 there was ever any discussion within the department about who 25 was or was not a donor and then I have no basis of 32 1 independently knowing who was a donor. 2 Q During the time up to and including the deposition, 3 the first session on October 8, 1996, have you ever been 4 diagnosed with hearing problems? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you since been diagnosed with hearing 7 problems? 8 A No, I have not. 9 Q Okay. So that is not the question. You're telling 10 me that you were responding to another question, not the one 11 that I just read to you at lines 18 to 22 on page 113? 12 MR. WEBSTER: Objection as argumentative. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: No, overruled. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm telling you I was giving you what 15 I was responding to and what I am responding to. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Well, I want to know -- I want you to tell me where 18 in this lines 18 to 22 are the words which led you to believe 19 that you were responding to a question about what had been 20 discussed at the Department of Commerce. 21 Where is it in lines 18 to 22 on page 113 that you 22 gleaned that question? 23 A From the context of your questions. In any event, 24 my answer was exactly as I have it here, I did not recall 25 that there was any discussion or any awareness of who were or 33 1 were not donors. 2 Q I didn't ask that question. Tell me where in lines 3 18 to 22 on page 113, the question that I asked, are the 4 words which led you to believe that I was asking about 5 whether there were discussions at the Department of Commerce 6 rather than whether it was something that you knew as a fact, 7 that companies that had been recommended for trade missions 8 had donated monies to the Democratic Party or President 9 Clinton. 10 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 11 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 12 Argumentative. And the words speak for themselves in the 13 deposition and he answered the question to the best of his 14 ability. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: Let me repeat. I was responding to 17 two facts -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking -- let me just stop you -- 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, let him finish and 20 then you can ask your follow-up question. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. 22 THE WITNESS: I was responding to two facts: the 23 fact that I did not recall any discussion of who were or were 24 not donors within the department and the fact that I had no 25 independent knowledge of who were or were not donors, as 34 1 relates to who was recommended for trade missions. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So consequently I can read your response at lines 1 4 and 2 on page 114 two different ways; that's what you're 5 saying? Number one, I can read it that you're not aware of 6 any discussions that companies recommended for trade missions 7 had donated to the Democratic Party or President Clinton; 8 correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And you didn't have any knowledge at all, from 11 whatever source, that any such companies had donated to the 12 Democratic Party or President Clinton? 13 A I have no independent knowledge of that. That's 14 correct. 15 Q Did you have any knowledge of any kind of that, 16 indirect or otherwise? 17 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q At the time that you testified. 21 A Not that I recall. Not that I recall. 22 Q Not that you recall then or not that you recall 23 now? Then being October 8, 1996. 24 A Right. Not that I recall. 25 Q At either time? 35 1 A Then being October 8, 1996. Not that I recall at 2 that time. 3 Q So are you saying that you might have had knowledge 4 of companies being recommended for trade missions, that they 5 were donors to the Democratic Party or President Clinton, but 6 at that point, on October 8, 1996, when you answered at lines 7 1 and 2 of page 114, you just forgot? 8 A No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is as of 9 that date, I had no independent knowledge of who were or were 10 not donors that I recall as between those who had been 11 recommended for trade missions. That's straightforward. 12 That's what I'm testifying to you. 13 Q Did you have any knowledge as to those who had been 14 recommended for trade missions in terms of participation at 15 trade mission events? 16 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me phrase that differently. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Does that apply, that you had no knowledge that 20 companies being recommended for trade missions were also 21 donors to the Democratic Party or President Clinton, does 22 that apply to companies that participated merely at trade 23 missions events? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. Lacks any 25 context. 36 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand your 4 question because there were thousands of people who 5 participated at trade missions events. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Were you aware on October 8, 1996 of any of those 8 companies being donors to the Democratic Party or President 9 Clinton? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, could you help me? 11 What's the difference between a trade mission and trade 12 mission event? Is one here in America and the other a trade 13 mission beyond America? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me see if I can put in the 15 context of the question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q On these trade missions, there were sometimes 18 events that took place such as receptions and meetings and 19 things like that, correct? 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q Correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And there were individuals and companies that 24 attended those events that weren't listed as participants on 25 Department of Commerce trade missions, correct? 37 1 A That's correct. 2 Q So my question is as of October 8, 1996, were you 3 aware of any companies who were not listed as participants on 4 trade missions by the Department of Commerce who had donated 5 money to the Democratic Party or President Clinton that 6 participated at those events? 7 MR. WEBSTER: Objection as vague and confusing. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: At the time of the event themselves, 10 I was not aware. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Were you aware of any -- I'm sorry, did you want to 13 finish, say anything more? 14 A That's the answer. At the time of the events 15 themselves, I was not aware. I have heard through media 16 and other sources that a number of people obviously are 17 supposed to have been substantial donors to the party. 18 Q On October 8, 1996, did you have knowledge of 19 companies that participated at trade mission events that 20 were donors to the Democratic Party or President Clinton? 21 A I was aware of allegations of donors who would have 22 participated in those events, but at the time of the events 23 themselves, there was no discussion or independent knowledge 24 by me of who was or was not. 25 Q On October 8, 1996, what information did you have 38 1 about individuals or companies that participated on trade 2 mission events which had donated to the Democratic Party or 3 President Clinton? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague and over broad. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't specifically recall. I don't 7 specifically recall. I mean, I obviously know now of many 8 people who are alleged to have been -- 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Your use of the phrase "specifically recall," what 11 do you mean by specifically recall? 12 A Okay. I don't recall. 13 Q Does that mean you have an idea, but unless you get 14 a 100 percent hit, you don't recall? 15 A I just don't recall. I don't recall. 16 Q Do you have an idea now, such as you've just 17 discussed? 18 A Oh, I've been asked a number of times about 19 Mr. Trie being a substantial donor and Mr. Chung being a 20 substantial donor, many others that I've seen in the press 21 being substantial donors who were members of various events, 22 not necessarily Department of Commerce events. 23 Q When you talk about Mr. Trie, you're talking about 24 Charlie Trie? 25 A Yes. 39 1 Q T-r-i-e? 2 A Yes. Correct. 3 Q And when you're talking about Mr. Chung, you're 4 talking about Johnny Chung? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And those two individuals did participate on 7 Department of Commerce trade missions, correct? 8 A They did not. 9 Q I'm not talking about whether they were formally 10 invited. 11 A Okay. 12 Q But those two individuals did show up on a 13 Department of Commerce trade mission, correct? 14 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: They appeared. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe they may have -- may 18 have -- first of all, I'm not specifically aware of what all 19 events they might or might not have participated in because 20 they didn't share that with me, but I do recall that -- that 21 they may have participated in one trade mission. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q In fact, that was the trade mission to China in the 24 fall of 1994, correct? 25 A Yes, that's correct. 40 1 Q Okay. That was the same trade mission where 2 Bernard Schwartz of Loral Corporation was actually on the 3 Commerce list and went on that trade mission. 4 A That's my recollection. 5 Q And what did those individuals do on that trade 6 mission in the fall of 1996? 7 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. I don't think he 8 testified they were on the trade mission and that's the 9 phraseology that he's using here. I don't think that's the 10 testimony of the witness. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Speaking objection, Your Honor. 12 MR. WEBSTER: His phrasing -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to this. 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Could you, Madam Reporter, 15 please repeat the penultimate question? 16 THE COURT REPORTER: Sure. Just a moment. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I really take strong 18 issue with that kind of an objection. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: An objection well taken. 20 I think a brief statement of the objection and the context -- 21 (The record was read back by the court reporter.) 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Now, Mr. Klayman, did we get as 23 far as we had? 24 MR. KLAYMAN: When I use the word "participated" -- 25 THE COURT REPORTER: One moment, please. One 41 1 moment, please. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: She's got to get to where she 3 was. Hold on. 4 THE COURT REPORTER: Go ahead. Thank you. 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: When I use the word "participated," 7 I'm not talking about formally appearing on the Department of 8 Commerce manifest. 9 I'm just talking about what did they do when they 10 showed up at that trade mission to China, what events did 11 they participate in, what occurred. Let's take the question 12 with regard to Mr. Trie. 13 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, you would have to ask 14 Mr. Trie what he did. I saw Mr. Trie, I think, at a dinner 15 during the trade mission. He was not a trade mission 16 participant. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What dinner was that? 19 A It was -- I don't know. It was a dinner. It was a 20 large dinner during the event. 21 Q Well, generically speaking, what kind of dinner was 22 it? 23 A I don't know what you mean by what type of dinner 24 was it. What did they serve? 25 Q Well, I'm not talking about going to McDonald's in 42 1 downtown Beijing. Was it an official function? 2 A Oh, yes. It was an official function. 3 Q What kind of an official function was it? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm not following your question. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's the simplest I can possibly ask 7 it, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I take it on these trade missions, 9 the invited country would hold dinners for their 10 distinguished guests? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, but there would be more than one 12 dinner. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. Was this such a dinner, as 14 to the best of your recollection? 15 THE WITNESS: That's my recollection, it was. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So you would have -- to the best 17 of your recollection, the Chinese government held the dinner 18 and invited these gentlemen to be with them? 19 THE WITNESS: No, that is not my recollection. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: What is your recollection of how 21 they came to be at this place? 22 THE WITNESS: Probably asked someone to -- as did a 23 number of other business people, American business people, 24 who were in town asked to be invited or got invited somehow. 25 It was not unusual in Asia, Africa, Latin America, for 43 1 business people to be invited to attend. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Even though they hadn't come on 3 the trade mission. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, specifically because they hadn't, 5 because the trade missions were limited. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I see. 7 THE WITNESS: And so business people who were in 8 town were invited to participate. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Is that clear, Mr. Klayman? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a start. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me see if I can follow up. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Your secretary at the Commerce Department was 15 Christine Sopko, one of them, correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And you had another one, correct? 18 A Yes. Mary Michael. 19 Q Mary Michael. Christine Sopko sent the itinerary 20 of the trade mission to China, this is the fall of 1994, to 21 Mr. Trie. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did she not? 24 A She would have to testify to that, but it's 25 possible. 44 1 Q Well, let us stipulate here that we have 2 Ms. Sopko's testimony. 3 A Okay. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to stipulate that, as events 5 may require, we would ask the Court permission for 6 supplemental testimony. I'm just asking about what you know. 7 MR. WEBSTER: I object to the stipulation aspect. 8 That's testimony of another witness. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't mean it legally, I just -- 10 I'm trying to instruct him, Your Honor, maybe you can 11 instruct him -- 12 MS. BRASWELL: I -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: -- not to refer me to another 14 witness, I'm not interested in another witness. 15 MR. WEBSTER: May I make one point, Your Honor? 16 I thought from Judge Lamberth's order that we were here on 17 destruction of documents and removal of documents. 18 We're now talking about activities of a trade 19 mission which took place abroad and it seems to me that we're 20 straying quite far afield -- 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: We are, because the topic of Judge 22 Lamberth's discussion is admittedly, as you say, the 23 destruction of those documents but we also necessarily have 24 to inquire into the possibility of their creation and that is 25 what we're trying to do and Mr. Klayman is trying to do. 45 1 MR. WEBSTER: Well, I haven't heard -- 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He's trying to figure out who was 3 there and what was the relationship of those people being 4 there to the fact that they have given money to a particular 5 party. That is in my view a legitimate inquiry under Judge 6 Lamberth's order. 7 MR. WEBSTER: But I haven't -- 8 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So deeming your objection along 9 the lines of relevancy, it is overruled. 10 MR. WEBSTER: I still haven't heard a single 11 question about retention of documents or creation of 12 documents or opportunity to create documents, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Be that as it may, we shall 14 proceed. 15 MR. WEBSTER: Okay. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q That list, and let me back up here. The itinerary 18 was sent by Ms. Sopko to Mr. Trie at your instruction, 19 correct? 20 A I cannot say that that's correct. I don't recall 21 that that's correct. It may have been a request from 22 Mr. Trie himself, but I don't recall now. 23 Q Was it the practice of your office -- what was 24 your position, just for identification purposes, for the 25 magistrate judge, at the Department of Commerce? 46 1 A I was deputy assistant secretary. 2 Q And what were your duties and responsibilities? 3 A I had triplicate duties. First and foremost, I was 4 doing trade promotion and trade development on behalf of the 5 services industries. Number two, I was responsible for 6 administering the congressionally mandated Export Trading 7 Companies Act. And, number three, I was responsible for 8 assisting in an intergovernmental effort to develop trade 9 finance policy. 10 Q And Christine Sopko worked under your direction and 11 control, correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Was there anyone else that you worked with that 14 could give her orders to do things? 15 A Give her orders to do things? 16 Q Did she work under anybody else's direct 17 supervision? 18 A No, just mine. 19 Q Okay. Was it -- 20 A But others could request and she would respond. 21 Q Was it the practice of your office, meaning you and 22 Ms. Sopko, that anybody could call in like Charlie Trie and 23 have anything sent to them? 24 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Vague. 25 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. That's not his testimony. 47 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 2 THE WITNESS: My recollection is not that it was a 3 practice that Ms. Sopko was at anyone else's direction, but 4 Ms. Sopko understood, as I understand, that ours is a service 5 organization and American business people very frequently 6 called and asked for information and materials that were 7 helpful to them in their ability to access markets and would 8 have received it not just from Ms. Sopko, but from myself, 9 Mary Michael and others in our office. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Was there any written directions on what Ms. Sopko 12 or Mary Michael could provide to outside persons requesting 13 information? 14 A I don't recall any such written guidelines, just 15 common sense, I would imagine. And obviously nothing that 16 was a security risk. 17 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Ms. Sopko as 18 to what she could provide to outside persons and entities? 19 A I'm not sure that we had a conversation about the 20 generic subject, but I would receive requests frequently from 21 around the globe for information which if I was able to 22 provide it, we would. 23 Q At the time that Mr. Trie made the request for the 24 itinerary, was it his request or was it your idea to send it 25 to him? 48 1 A As I testified before, I don't recall. I don't 2 recall how the request was made. 3 Q Before the request was made, you had made the 4 acquaintance of Mr. Trie. 5 A Yes, I had. 6 Q And you had met with him on a number of occasions, 7 correct? 8 A I had met with him on an infrequent basis. 9 Q And how many bases are infrequent? What's the 10 frequency? 11 A Oh, I don't recall. I probably testified to it 12 earlier. I don't recall the number of times I've seen 13 Mr. Trie. 14 Q Was it -- before that point in time that Ms. Sopko 15 sent the itinerary, was it over five times? 16 A I frankly don't recall. It could have been as many 17 as five times. 18 Q And, in fact, you had met with him in China before 19 that, correct? 20 A Yes. The first time I met him was in China. 21 Q And you had seen his office, correct? In China? 22 A I don't recall that he had an office. I think he 23 had a hotel room. 24 Q Okay. And you had met with him more than once in 25 China before that itinerary was faxed by Ms. Sopko to 49 1 Mr. Trie for the trade trip in the fall of '94. 2 A I don't specifically recall. As I testified, I had 3 met with Mr. Trie infrequently, but more than once prior to 4 that time. 5 Q And Mr. Trie had met with you at the Commerce 6 Department, in your office there, correct? Before that 7 itinerary was ever faxed by Ms. Sopko to him. 8 A I believe he had. 9 Q So Ms. Sopko knew Mr. Trie. She had seen him. 10 A Yes. Ms. Sopko knew hundreds of our constituents, 11 as I did. 12 Q I just asked about Mr. Trie. 13 A Well, I was just saying that that was the normal 14 course of business. 15 Q That she knew Mr. Trie. 16 A She had met Mr. Trie. 17 Q Okay. Where is that itinerary today that was 18 faxed to Mr. Trie? Where was it stored at the Commerce 19 Department? 20 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask the latter question. 22 MR. WEBSTER: Could you clarify? You want the 23 fax that Trie got, where that is? Or do you want the 24 itinerary? 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll withdraw the question. 50 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Where was that itinerary stored in your office that 3 Ms. Sopko faxed to Mr. Trie? 4 A More than likely, it was somewhere in the many 5 files that made up the office files generally, which 6 obviously Ms. Sopko would have had access to. 7 Q Did you see the document before it was faxed to 8 Mr. Trie? 9 A I had seen the itinerary many times in many 10 iterations. 11 Q Did you see the document which was actually faxed 12 by Ms. Sopko to Mr. Trie? 13 A I don't recall that document specifically. 14 Q And the reason it was faxed to Mr. Trie is because 15 you were inviting Mr. Trie to participate on events during 16 the trade mission to China in the fall of '94, correct? 17 MR. WEBSTER: Objection, Your Honor. There's no 18 basis for that question. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't recall specifically inviting 21 Mr. Trie. I understood from Mr. Trie, as well as a number of 22 others, a number of other people and companies in Beijing 23 that they wanted to participate in the events of the trade 24 mission. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, that's the third time now 51 1 that we've had a speaking objection. The next time it 2 happens I'm going to ask for sanctions. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: So be it. Move on. 4 MR. WEBSTER: Your Honor -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a way -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Gentlemen, proceed. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a way of signalling the 8 witness that that's, you know, a question to pay attention 9 to. There's no need for that kind of a question. 10 MR. WEBSTER: It's a legitimate -- 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection that he said was 12 objection, there is no basis for that question, by which 13 I suppose he meant that there was -- what, no evidentiary 14 foundation for the question? 15 MR. WEBSTER: That is correct, Your Honor. No 16 evidentiary foundation, which is a legitimate objection, and 17 I do resent being bullied here by these comments. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. Your point -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Just say lack of foundation. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: If you can just say objection, 21 lacks foundation, that would suffice. 22 Please proceed. 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q I'm not going to dwell on this question, but just 25 for purposes of the magistrate who was not there during the 52 1 first deposition, you are from Arkansas, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And many of your family members have been or are 4 employed by either the State of Arkansas or the Clinton 5 administration, correct? 6 A I wouldn't say many, but I'm not the only Kearney 7 who has worked in the Clinton administration, either as 8 governor or president. 9 Q In fact, you have a sister that works in the White 10 House, correct? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q What's her name? 13 A Janice. 14 Q And what's her position? 15 A She is an assistant to the President. 16 Q And what are her duties and responsibilities? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 18 MR. WEBSTER: I again would object to all this line 19 of questioning as being totally irrelevant. 20 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on. I don't think we're 21 getting -- 22 MR. WEBSTER: This is a continuing deposition, 23 asked and answered. 24 MS. BRASWELL: It's also outside the scope. 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Klayman, I'm looking at pages 53 1 118 and 119, in which this is discussed. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. I was trying to do it for 3 Your Honor's benefit. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That's okay. I've read them. You 5 don't have to. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. You've read the transcript? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Exactly. I'm looking right at it. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Good. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Mr. Trie is from Arkansas, correct? 11 A Originally, I think he was not born in Arkansas, 12 but he lived there for years. 13 Q And I believe you testified in one proceeding that 14 Mr. Trie, you had spoken with him orally over the phone 15 before you ever met him and he had a southern accent, 16 correct? 17 A Yes, that's what I recall. 18 Q Okay. Now, you knew Mr. Trie back in Arkansas, 19 didn't you? 20 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 21 THE WITNESS: Definitely -- 22 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Definitely did not. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q Were you aware that he had a restaurant in 54 1 Arkansas? 2 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 4 THE WITNESS: I was not aware. I had never heard 5 of Mr. Trie before he introduced himself to me over the 6 phone. Nor of his restaurant. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, you made a special point of having him invited 9 to the events during the China trade mission in '94, correct? 10 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. Asked and answered. 11 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 12 THE WITNESS: I did just respond to that question 13 before. I do not specifically recall making a special effort 14 to get Mr. Trie invited to events. Business people in these 15 areas tend to be very savvy at getting themselves invited and 16 getting themselves into events. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you communicate with anyone else a desire to 19 have Mr. Trie included in events or participate in events 20 during the trade trip to China in the fall of '94? 21 A If we're talking about -- there are two events here 22 and I think you may be mixing them up. There was a trade 23 mission, I think, in August of 1994. 24 Q Right. 25 A And that's the event where I recall seeing 55 1 Mr. Trie. There was a further event in Asia somewhere, 2 and I don't know if it was China or Hong Kong, in which 3 Mr. Trie expressed some interest in participating and 4 providing a reception for that. And, again, this was very 5 common and still is, I would imagine, that stops where trade 6 missions are going to be local business people want to host 7 that. 8 And so at a time and point, at a point in time, I 9 did receive a recommendation that Mr. Trie be allowed to 10 provide such an event. I did what we're required to do or 11 what I felt like I was required to do and I sent that to 12 others to decide. 13 Q But that related to a visit in 1993, correct? 14 A No. Not that I'm aware of. 15 Q Did it relate to the trade mission to China in the 16 fall of '94? 17 A The trade mission to China that I'm aware of didn't 18 occur in the fall of 1994. It occurred in August of 1994. 19 Q Okay. August of '94. I view that as fall. 20 A I don't think that my note regarding Mr. Trie 21 related to that trade mission. My recollection is that it 22 did not relate -- 23 Q That it -- I'm sorry? 24 A That it related to a subsequent visit, one which 25 I didn't participate in. 56 1 Q So you're saying there was a note where you 2 recommended that he participate in a trade mission event or 3 events or host a trade mission event or events? 4 A That he be allowed to host a reception for the 5 delegation. And, again -- well, I think I've told you that 6 this was not uncommon. Many companies wanted to host such 7 receptions and they always had to go through certain 8 procedures. That request came to me and I put it through 9 that procedure. 10 Q Are you saying that anyone, no matter how small or 11 how insignificant or unknown, that contacted your office you 12 would make a high level recommendation to have them host an 13 event at a trade mission? 14 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 16 THE WITNESS: Because I was not particularly high 17 level, or didn't feel myself particularly high level, 18 I didn't consider it a high level recommendation. I simply 19 passed on a request that was made to me by a U.S. business 20 person who wanted to interact with the delegation and it 21 wasn't the first or the last time that I made recommendations 22 like that. 23 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 24 reporter to mark as Exhibit 13. This is actually the entire 25 exhibit. Do we have a stapler? Okay. 57 1 We've got them stapled, Your Honor. Thank you. 2 We'll just have to remark it. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 4 (Kearney Deposition No. 13 5 was marked for identification.) 6 MS. BRASWELL: Your Honor? 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Yes, ma'am? 8 MS. BRASWELL: I'm freezing. Is there any way that 9 we can do something about that? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Because the 11 last time you were all complaining about how hot it is, so -- 12 I can't seem to please you, but we'll get it down. 13 MS. BRASWELL: I don't think I complained about 14 that. 15 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, several people did. 16 Could you shut it off? 17 MS. BRASWELL: Thank you very much. 18 JUDGE FACCIOLA: You're quite welcome. Because 19 Judge Lamberth would keep it on. You know that as well as 20 I do. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I'm showing you what has been marked as Exhibit 13. 23 Have you seen this document before, Mr. Kearney? 24 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me, Your Honor. Could we have 25 the exhibit described? I've been handed something that's 58 1 marked Exhibit 38 and it's comprised of three pages -- four 2 pages -- and it's got something attached to it underneath 3 that's 101 and that's comprised of two pages so -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, wait, wait. Please, 5 Your Honor, again, it's a way to tell him what's -- 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Well, let's see. What's your 7 problem with the document, counsel? 8 MR. WEBSTER: I don't know what he's talking about. 9 What is the exhibit? 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I assume, Mr. Klayman, you're 11 handing this to the -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy to identify it. I have 13 no problem -- 14 JUDGE FACCIOLA: It's Exhibit 13, right? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: And you've handed it, I assume, 17 the same copy to the witness that you did to me. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. Right. 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. For purposes of the 20 record, it has in that one exhibit seven different pieces of 21 paper -- one, two, three, four, five pieces of paper. Is 22 that right? 23 MS. BRASWELL: I have six, Your Honor. 24 MR. WEBSTER: No, I have six, Your Honor, and 25 I have -- 59 1 MS. BRASWELL: Including a blank page. 2 MR. WEBSTER: The last two pages, one of them is 3 marked Exhibit 101. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I don't see that marking on 5 here -- yes, I see it. Okay. But despite the exhibit 6 numbers in the lower right-hand corner, Mr. Klayman, you 7 are now describing this, these six pages, as one exhibit, 8 Exhibit 13. Is that right, sir? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: That's correct. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. You may inquire. 11 MR. WEBSTER: The inquiry was as to this document, 12 Your Honor. Since there are multiple documents -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: He's going to explain what he 14 wants. We'll have an understanding that the document that 15 I'm looking at is the document which is Exhibit 13 consists 16 of 13 pages. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me change this, Your Honor. 18 The first three pages are Exhibit 13. We can remove the last 19 two. 20 MS. BRASWELL: Including the blank page? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know that -- I don't have a 22 blank page. 23 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. So -- 24 MS. BRASWELL: Well, are we missing a page? 25 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The document that begins with the 60 1 words "Opening the door to China"? Is that right, 2 Mr. Klayman? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: No. The last document is -- what we 4 should remove, "Office of Service Industries, Josephine 5 Ludolph, Director." 6 MS. BRASWELL: Remove those two pages? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Melinda Yee from Jude Kearney. Yes. 8 Just to keep the documents discrete. This actually only got 9 stapled together. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Okay. 11 MS. BRASWELL: So how many pages are we left with, 12 Mr. Klayman? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'll identify them. 14 The document that I'm referring to is a memorandum 15 to Jim Hackney and Melissa Moss from Jude Kearney, Deputy 16 Assistant Secretary for Service Industries and Finance, of 17 August 10, 1994, cc Nancy Linn Patton and Ira Sockowitz. 18 Attachments bearing the numbers 01BA0470 and the second page, 19 although the Bates number is removed at the top, "Opening the 20 door to China." So that consists of three pages. 21 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Thank you. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 23 Q Mr. Hackney, have you ever seen this memorandum of 24 August 10, 1994? 25 MR. WEBSTER: Excuse me, Mr. Kearney. 61 1 MS. BRASWELL: It's Mr. Kearney, not Mr. Hackney, 2 that you're deposing. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Kearney. Excuse me. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have seen this document 5 before. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you see it in or about August 10, 1994? 8 A It's possible that I did. Yes. I don't 9 specifically recall that date, obviously, but -- 10 Q This document was not produced in the Judicial 11 Watch case, it came from an alternative source. Do you 12 know why, Mr. Hackney, this was not produced to Judicial 13 Watch? 14 A Mr. Kearney. 15 Q Mr. Kearney. I'm sorry. 16 A I do not know why this document was not produced 17 Q Now, this document states "Here is some background 18 information on Charlie Trie. As you know, Charlie is very 19 interested in hosting a brief reception or other appropriate 20 event for the delegation in Beijing. I am forwarding this 21 description of his company to the general counsel's office 22 for their vetting. I have also asked those involved in the 23 scheduling process to consider finding a space of time in 24 which Charlie could interact with the delegation." 25 The document contains two attachments, correct? 62 1 A The document that I have in my hand has three pages 2 attached to it. 3 Q You remember these three pages, do you not? 4 A I remember basically this transmission and I don't 5 recall the contents of the attachment. In fact, I'm pretty 6 sure that I never focused substantially on it. 7 Q Who prepared the second page where it states at 8 the second paragraph "Mr. Trie has developed a personal 9 relationship with a number of government officials throughout 10 China"? 11 A Where is that? 12 Q Second paragraph, second page. 13 A I don't know who prepared this page. 14 Q You were aware, however, at the time that this 15 memorandum was sent to Mr. Hackney and Ms. Moss that that 16 statement was correct, that Mr. Trie had developed a personal 17 relationship with a number of government officials throughout 18 China? 19 A Was I aware of it? 20 Q Yes. 21 A I was not personally aware of that. No. And, in 22 fact, I'm pretty sure that I did not focus substantially on 23 this document. 24 Q Have you ever met Jody Webb? 25 A I don't believe so. 63 1 Q Have you ever met -- I'm sorry, go on. 2 A I don't recall meeting Mr. Webb. 3 Q You know it's a Mr.? 4 A I think it's a Mr. I think I spoke to him on the 5 phone once. 6 Q Okay. And when did you speak with him on the 7 phone? 8 A Oh, I don't recall. It may have been in connection 9 with this. 10 Q Why did Mr. Webb call you? 11 A He may have called me for the purpose of providing 12 me with this information. I don't recall. I don't 13 specifically recall. 14 Q Well, you just testified, so obviously you do 15 recall. Tell me everything you remember about that call. 16 A I remember speaking to him and that he was in 17 Arkansas. That's what I recall. And I remember that he 18 worked for Mr. Trie in some capacity. 19 Q And he called you before the trade mission to China 20 in the fall of '94? 21 A I'm not saying that. I don't know when he called 22 me. I don't recall that it was before or after this event. 23 I'm saying that it could have been. 24 Q Did he call you to coordinate public relations 25 about Mr. Trie and his company, Daihatsu for use during the 64 1 trip to China in the fall of '94? 2 A No, he did not. 3 Q You didn't know him before? 4 A I did not know him. And I don't know that he did 5 public relations. I don't know what his job was. 6 Q Well, it says on page 2, "For more information, 7 call Jody Webb, Public Relations Consultant." 8 A Okay. 9 Q Does that refresh your recollection? 10 A No, it does not, because I never focused on that 11 fact before. 12 Q Look at the third page, "Opening the door to 13 China." 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q This document emanated from Mr. Jody Webb, did it 16 not? And it's a resume of Mr. Trie and his company, Daihatsu 17 International Trading Company. 18 A That's what this document suggests, yes. And 19 I assume that we received it from Mr. Webb. 20 Q And both of these documents were sent on to Jim 21 Hackney and Melissa Moss to try to convince them to include 22 Mr. Trie in hosting a brief reception on the trade mission to 23 China in the fall of '94. 24 MR. WEBSTER: Objection again as to the continuing 25 confusion here -- 65 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, I object to this. 2 JUDGE FACCIOLA: All right. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: This is unnecessary. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Mr. Kearney, can you answer that 5 question? 6 THE WITNESS: I can answer the question. 7 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Please do so. 8 THE WITNESS: The answer is that it was not sent to 9 try to convince them per se, it was sent to them as 10 information for their consideration. 11 MR. WEBSTER: Again, I object. The question still 12 confuses the record -- 13 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The record will speak for itself. 14 Proceed, Mr. Klayman. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Your Honor, may I instruct -- well, 16 I ask Your Honor to instruct Mr. Webster to make an objection 17 as to vagueness in the future, rather than to go through a 18 long colloquy? 19 JUDGE FACCIOLA: That was not a long colloquy, but 20 as I've explained in several instances, an objection that is 21 consistent with the Federal Rules of Evidence, objection, 22 vague, objection, asked and answered, will suffice. That is 23 the way I hope we all will conduct ourselves. 24 MR. WEBSTER: My objection is it's misleading 25 because it misstates the evidence. 66 1 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, Your Honor. I move for 2 sanctions. 3 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Motion for sanctions denied. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'll -- 5 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Hold on just a second. 6 Mr. Kearney, if you don't understand the question, 7 please say so. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: To state that it misstates the 9 evidence is to tell the witness something and we have been 10 through this in this case. Judge Lamberth has issued a 11 number of opinions, I know Your Honor agrees with this 12 procedure. 13 Every time I get into areas that this is going to 14 happen, it's going to seriously compromise my ability to 15 question this witness. 16 JUDGE FACCIOLA: I will monitor it very carefully. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Now, I ask you if this refreshes your recollection 19 as to the events that Mr. Trie participated in during the 20 trade mission to China in the fall of '94. 21 A You did not ask me that. 22 Q Does it refresh your recollection? That's my 23 question. 24 A Let me repeat to you that as of the date of this 25 memorandum, I'm pretty certain -- not pretty certain, 67 1 I recall that the first trade mission to China might have 2 occurred already. 3 Q Let me stipulate to you that that's not the trade 4 mission that we are referring to that occurred in the fall of 5 '94, in September of '94. You are aware of a trade mission 6 to China in September of '94? 7 A I'm forgetting the dates, but I believe there was a 8 trade mission in August. To China in August of '94, but 9 I could be -- I could be wrong. 10 In any event, go ahead with your question. 11 Q Well, I just did. Does it refresh your 12 recollection as to the events that Mr. Trie participated in? 13 A No, this does not. This does not refresh my 14 recollection. 15 Q What else did -- you went to that trade mission in 16 China in the fall of '94, correct? 17 A The trade mission that I went to was, I believe -- 18 it was in 1994, but I don't think it was in the fall. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 20 reporter to mark as Exhibit 14. 21 (Kearney Deposition No. 14 22 was marked for identification.) 23 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 24 Q Have you seen this document before? 25 A I might very well have seen it before. 68 1 Q It consists of two pages. It's entitled 2 "Delegation List Presidential Business Development Mission 3 to China August 26 to September 3, 1994." 4 A Okay. I see we're both correct. It was August and 5 September. I remembered August for some reason. 6 Q And it lists the formal participants on the trade 7 mission, correct? 8 A As of the date of this document, yes. 9 Q Right. 10 A It changed from time to time. 11 Q As formally invited by the Department of Commerce. 12 A That's what this seems to indicate. 13 Q Okay. As opposed to being invited by you 14 personally. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Now, this does refresh your recollection as to the 17 date of the trade mission that I am referring to to China, 18 August 26 to September 3, 1994? 19 A Yes. Yes. 20 Q And this refreshes your recollection that the 21 document, Kearney Exhibit 13, which is the August 10, 1994 22 memo to Jim Hackney and Melissa Moss from you, related 23 to that trade mission from August 26th to September 3, 1994. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Now, with all that refreshing, tell me what it 69 1 is that Charlie Trie participated on as far as events on 2 the trade mission to China August 26 to September 3, 1994. 3 A Let me repeat that I do not know what all Charlie 4 Trie might have participated in, whom he might or might not 5 have met with from the delegation. 6 I recall one event at which I believe I saw him. 7 My recollection is that the event that he had requested, the 8 request that he had made for a reception, obviously did not 9 occur. 10 Q You met with Charlie Trie on that trip to China, 11 did you not? 12 A I saw him, yes. 13 Q Where did you see him? 14 A I don't recall. I think it may have been at the 15 hotel that we were all staying at. 16 Q And what hotel was that? 17 A I think it was the China Wall. 18 Q And where did you meet him at the China Wall? 19 A Oh, I don't recall. Maybe in the lobby or the 20 coffee shop. I don't recall. 21 Q And what did you discuss with him at that time? 22 A How things were going, how he was doing, how was 23 business. 24 Q Why did you meet with him in the lobby at that 25 time? 70 1 A He requested a meeting. 2 Q And what was the purpose of his request? 3 A He was interested -- I had requests for meetings of 4 other American business people while I was there. 5 Q Wait a second. He was interested in the meetings 6 of other American business people? 7 A No, no. He was interested in meeting with members 8 of the delegation. It was very common. 9 Q So he requested the meeting with you so you could 10 arrange for him to meet with other members of the delegation. 11 A No. No. That is not correct. He requested a 12 meeting with me because he wanted to meet with me. 13 Q And what did he tell you he wanted to meet with 14 you about? 15 A Just wanted to meet with me to discuss generally 16 what he was trying to do and to just say that, you know, he 17 was trying to be a good businessman in China. There were 18 those of us, myself included, who knew how difficult that 19 was. 20 Q So Charlie Trie contacted you to go down into the 21 lobby to meet with him? 22 A The best of my recollection. 23 Q And all he said was he wanted your approval that he 24 was a good businessman? 25 A No, he didn't need my approval. 71 1 Q Was it your practice to give certificates of 2 approval to people to do business? 3 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 4 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Sustained. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Tell me what he really wanted, Mr. Hackney. What 7 was it -- 8 A Why do you keep referring to me as Mr. Hackney? 9 Q Excuse me, Mr. Kearney. Why did he call you down 10 into the lobby and what did he ask you for? 11 A He didn't ask me for anything. As I recall. 12 Mr. Klayman, you know, long before any of this came to fore, 13 business people wanted to have contact with U.S. delegations 14 whether they were from Commerce or from other places because 15 they wanted to feel a part of the government's effort to open 16 markets. 17 Q So let me see if I've got the chronology right. 18 You send a formal memo to Mr. Hackney and Ms. Moss saying 19 that Charlie Trie should be set up in some kind of brief 20 reception. You have contact with his public relations 21 consultant, Jody Webb. You have sent to Mr. Trie through 22 Ms. Sopko an itinerary of what goes on during the trade 23 mission and you go down into the lobby of the China World 24 Hotel and you just want to make sure that Charlie Trie is 25 doing okay. 72 1 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did I get that right? 4 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: No, you did not. 6 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 7 MS. BRASWELL: The question misstates this 8 evidence. 9 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. Mr. Kearney can 10 correct it if he sees fit. 11 THE WITNESS: You did not state that correctly. 12 I didn't go down to the lobby to see if Charlie was okay. 13 I went down to the lobby because I was a U.S. Government 14 employee and calls were made on me both at home and abroad 15 to meet with U.S. business people. 16 It wasn't too much, it wasn't burdensome on me. 17 I had many meetings in Beijing that particular trip with 18 U.S. insurance companies, bankers and many others who wanted 19 to feel a part of the delegation. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What I'm trying to find out, you have all this 22 prior activity on behalf of Mr. Trie. You make your own 23 recommendation to Mr. Hackney and Ms. Moss. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Somehow the itinerary gets sent to Mr. Trie. 73 1 A Not somehow. Very specifically it was sent to 2 him. 3 Q Correct. And I'm just trying to get from you as 4 much information as you can give me as to what Charlie Trie 5 said to you and what you said to him during the meeting, 6 other than how you doing, Charlie, because that's all you've 7 testified in effect up to this point. 8 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. 9 MR. WEBSTER: Objection. 10 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: That's not all I've testified to. 12 I don't recall the specifics of the conversation. My 13 recollection of Mr. Trie was that he seemed ernest in his 14 effort to become a business person. 15 I never really understood specifically what all of 16 his business he was trying to accomplish, but I don't have a 17 specific recollection of going through with him step by step 18 all of what he was trying to do. It was no more, no less 19 than what I've said. 20 He made contact with me. He wanted to know how the 21 delegation was going and he wanted to know -- he just wanted 22 me to know that he was still trying to -- trying to become a 23 businessman. 24 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 25 Q And what did you tell him? 74 1 A Probably nothing very committal because nothing 2 was requested of me. 3 Q Well, what did you tell him that was non-committal? 4 A It's good to see you, how are things, that's -- 5 I don't recall beyond that. I told him that I thought the 6 delegation was a very good delegation. I thought that this 7 was a very productive trade mission. 8 Q Did you meet with Mr. Trie after that -- was anyone 9 present during that meeting? 10 A I don't recall. I don't think so, but I don't 11 specifically recall. 12 Q Mr. Trie was taking notes during that meeting? 13 A No, not that I recall. 14 Q Mr. Trie was a prolific note taker, based on your 15 experience in having contact with him, correct? 16 A No. That's not correct. 17 Q You took notes from time to time, didn't you? 18 A Not based on my conversations with business people 19 out in the field. 20 Q You never took a note pad with you? 21 A No, not that I recall. 22 Q You never had a laptop computer? Did you take a 23 laptop computer to China? 24 A No, I didn't know how to use it. 25 Q But you did have a laptop computer at the 75 1 Department of Commerce, right? 2 A No, I did not. 3 Q You did have a computer, correct? 4 A I had a computer. And I am ashamed to say, and 5 I think I said this to you in our first deposition, my first 6 deposition, that I didn't know how to use it. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask the court 8 reporter to mark as Exhibit 14. 9 THE COURT REPORTER: Fifteen. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. Fifteen? 11 THE COURT REPORTER: I think. Fifteen. 12 MS. BRASWELL: Yes. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: You're right. 14 This is a memorandum of August 22, 1994 from 15 David L. Mercer to Martha Shoffner. 16 (Kearney Deposition No. 15 17 was marked for identification.) 18 MR. KLAYMAN: It's Exhibit 26 to some legal 19 proceeding. It's produced by the Democratic National 20 Committee, Bates numbers 1275756. Again, a document 21 which was not produced to Judicial Watch in this case, 22 but which we got from alternative sources. 23 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. There's no indication 24 this is a Department of Commerce document. 25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just putting on the record -- 76 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: The objection is noted, 2 Ms. Braswell. 3 Please continue with your inquiry. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Who is Martha Shoffner? 6 A As I recall, Ms. Shoffner worked with or for 7 Charlie Trie. 8 Q And what was her position working for Charlie Trie? 9 A I don't recall what her position was. 10 Q Where did she work? 11 A I think she worked out of Arkansas. 12 Q Did Charlie Trie have an office in Arkansas up to 13 the time leading up to the trade mission in the fall of '94 14 to China? 15 A I understood he had an office there. I believed he 16 had an office there. I was told he had an office there. 17 Q Who told you he had an office there? 18 A I think he did. 19 Q Did you ever communicate with that office, you or 20 the Commerce Department? 21 A I believe -- 22 Q Up to the trade trip, up to the time of the trade 23 trip to China in the fall of '94? 24 A I believe that I did. I believe I spoke to 25 Mr. Trie from there. And, as I mentioned to you before, 77 1 I spoke at some point with Mr. Webb, who I assume was also 2 there. 3 Q Did you ever call Mr. Trie in Arkansas? You, 4 Mr. Kearney? 5 A I might certainly have. I don't specifically 6 recall. I might have gotten a message asking me to call. 7 Q What do you mean by "might certainly"? 8 A It wouldn't have been unusual. 9 Q Did you call him more than once? 10 A I might have. I don't specifically recall. 11 Q Did you ever visit that office in Arkansas? 12 A Never did. 13 Q Did you ever visit Mr. Trie's home in Arkansas? 14 A No, never have. 15 Q Did you ever see him in Arkansas? 16 A No, never have. That I recall. 17 Q Now, this memorandum is from David L. Mercer. 18 Who is David L. Mercer? 19 A David Mercer -- I know a David Mercer at the -- 20 who works at the Democratic National Committee. 21 Q And what's his position there? What was his 22 position in and about August of 1994? 23 A I don't believe I can -- I can't say specifically. 24 Q He handled fundraising, correct? 25 MS. BRASWELL: Objection. Outside the scope. 78 1 JUDGE FACCIOLA: Overruled. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know what Mr. Mercer handled. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Had you ever had contact with Mr. Mercer up to the 5 time of the trade mission to China in the fall of '94? 6 A I had