51


       1         Q    Did you later learn at some point

       2    about any efforts to have Mr. Marceca

       3    detailed to the Office of Personnel Security?

       4         A    Yes.

       5         Q    When did you learn about those

       6    efforts?

       7         A    I believe it was in the spring of

       8    '93.

       9         Q    And do you recall how you learned

      10    about efforts to have Mr. Marceca detailed to

      11    the Office of Personnel Security?

      12         A    I believe it was a discussion with

      13    Craig Livingstone.

      14         Q    Did Mr. Livingstone tell you why he

      15    desired to have Mr. Marceca detailed to the

      16    office?

      17         A    The work load that we had within

      18    The White House Personnel Security Office, it

      19    was to help ease that.

      20         Q    Did he tell you specifically

      21    anything about what he might have in mind for

      22    Mr. Marceca to do were he detailed to the








                                                            52


       1    Office of Personnel Security?

       2         A    Yes.

       3         Q    What did he tell you that?

       4         A    That he would be working on the

       5    SF 86 forms which all employees had to fill

       6    out that we had to send to the FBI and

       7    possibly other projects that would be coming

       8    up.

       9         Q    Did he mention anything about

      10    having Mr. Marceca work on a project known as

      11    the update project?

      12         A    Ultimately, yes.

      13         Q    When you say "ultimately," did he

      14    tell you that during his initial conversation

      15    about having Mr. Marceca come to the office?

      16         A    I don't believe so.

      17         Q    Do you recall when he told you

      18    about the possibility that Mr. Marceca would

      19    work on the update project?

      20         A    I don't remember specifically, but

      21    I believe it was probably sometime over this

      22    summer.








                                                            53


       1         Q    At the time that Mr. Livingstone

       2    mentioned to you the possibility of having

       3    Mr. Marceca detailed to the office, did you

       4    feel that the office was shorthanded?

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

       6    Vague and ambiguous.

       7              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       8              BY MR. GARREN:

       9         Q    Did it make sense to you at that

      10    time that what Mr. Livingstone told you he

      11    had in mind for Mr. Marceca to do in the

      12    office?

      13         A    Yes.

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      15    foundation.  Vague and ambiguous.  Leading.

      16    Puts forth facts not in evidence.

      17              BY MR. GARREN:

      18         Q    You can answer the question.

      19         A    Yes.

      20         Q    Now, at any time did

      21    Mr. Livingstone ever suggest to you that he

      22    had any type of secret or confidential task








                                                            54


       1    in mind for Mr. Marceca to perform in the

       2    office?

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Vague and

       4    ambiguous.  Leading.

       5              BY MR. GARREN:

       6         Q    You can answer.

       7         A    No.

       8         Q    Did Mr. Livingstone ever suggest

       9    that Mr. Marceca might be involved in any

      10    kind of unlawful or improper activity in the

      11    office?

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Calls for

      13    a legal conclusion.  Vague and ambiguous.

      14    Leading.  Assumes facts not in evidence.

      15              THE WITNESS:  No.

      16              BY MR. GARREN:

      17         Q    At any time did Mr. Livingstone

      18    ever suggest to you that Mr. Marceca would be

      19    doing anything in the office that you should

      20    not be generally aware of or knowledgeable

      21    about?

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Compound








                                                            55


       1    question.  Vague and ambiguous.  Assumes

       2    facts not in evidence.

       3              BY MR. GARREN:

       4         Q    You can answer.

       5         A    No.

       6         Q    Now, do you recall the --

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  And leading.

       8              BY MR. GARREN:

       9         Q    Do you recall the general dates of

      10    Mr. Marceca's detail at the Office of

      11    Personnel Security?

      12         A    I believe either the end of August,

      13    beginning of September through, I believe,

      14    February of '94.

      15         Q    And during Mr. Marceca's detail in

      16    the office, were you his supervisor?

      17         A    Generally, but it was basically

      18    both -- mostly Craig.  Craig would give him

      19    direction.

      20         Q    Well, during Mr. Marceca's detail

      21    in the office, were you generally aware of

      22    the tasks that he was performing in the








                                                            56


       1    office?

       2         A    Yes.

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Vague and

       4    ambiguous.  Leading.  Lacks foundation.  Move

       5    to strike.  Is that funny, Mr. Gaffney?  Is

       6    it necessary to interrupt this deposition

       7    with laughter?

       8              MR. GARREN:  It's not much of an

       9    interruption.  I think we can move on.

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  I think it's

      11    disrespectful.

      12              THE WITNESS:  Can we take a break?

      13              MR. GARREN:  Absolutely.

      14              THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going at

      15    off video record at 10:23.

      16                   (Recess)

      17              THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on

      18    video record at 10:31.

      19              BY MR. GARREN:

      20         Q    Now, Ms. Anderson, when we broke,

      21    we were discussing Mr. Marceca, and I want to

      22    go back to discussing Mr. Marceca.  During








                                                            57


       1    Mr. Marceca's detail in the Office of

       2    Personnel Security, did you ever sense any

       3    effort by him to keep any of his work secret

       4    from you?

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Vague and

       6    ambiguous.  Leading.  Compound question.

       7              BY MR. GARREN:

       8         Q    You can answer.

       9         A    No.

      10         Q    During Mr. Marceca's detail in the

      11    office, did you ever sense any effort by

      12    Mr. Livingstone to keep Mr. Marceca's work

      13    secret from you?

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection and

      15    adds lacks foundation for the last two

      16    questions.

      17              THE WITNESS:  No.

      18              BY MR. GARREN:

      19         Q    During Mr. Marceca's work detail in

      20    the Office of Personnel Security, did you

      21    ever sense any effort by anyone to keep his

      22    work secret from you?








                                                            58


       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection.

       2              THE WITNESS:  No.

       3              BY MR. GARREN:

       4         Q    At any time during your tenure with

       5    the Office of Personnel Security, did you

       6    ever sense that Mr. Livingstone and

       7    Mr. Marceca might have any kind of secret

       8    agreement or understanding about the nature

       9    of Mr. Marceca's work in the office?

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection.

      11              THE WITNESS:  No.

      12              BY MR. GARREN:

      13         Q    During your work in the office,

      14    during your tenure in the Office of Personnel

      15    Security, did you ever see or hear anything

      16    that suggested to you that Mr. Marceca might

      17    be involved in any kind of effort to obtain

      18    confidential information on members of prior

      19    presidential administrations?

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection.

      21              THE WITNESS:  No.

      22              BY MR. GARREN:








                                                            59


       1         Q    During your tenure with the Office

       2    of Personnel Security, did you ever hear or

       3    see anything that suggested to you that

       4    Mr. Marceca might be involved in any attempt

       5    to misuse the personnel security files held

       6    by the Office of Personnel Security?

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection.

       8              THE WITNESS:  No.

       9              BY MR. GARREN:

      10         Q    At any time, are you aware of

      11    Mr. Marceca communicating in any fashion with

      12    the First Lady?

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Same

      14    objection.  And leading.

      15              THE WITNESS:  No.

      16              BY MR. GARREN:

      17         Q    Are you aware of Mr. Marceca at any

      18    time communicating with Bernard Nussbuam?

      19         A    No.

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Vague and

      21    ambiguous.  Lacks foundation.  Leading.

      22              THE WITNESS:  No.








                                                            60


       1              BY MR. GARREN:

       2         Q    Now let's turn to Mr. Nussbuam

       3    briefly.  Are you aware of whom Mr. Bernard

       4    Nussbuam is?

       5         A    Yes.

       6         Q    Are you aware of the position that

       7    he held in The White House?

       8         A    Yes.

       9         Q    What position was that?

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  I move to strike the

      11    last two questions.  Lacks foundation.

      12              BY MR. GARREN:

      13         Q    You can answer the question.

      14         A    He was counsel to the President.

      15         Q    Was he counsel to the President

      16    during the time that you were employed by the

      17    Office of Personnel Security?

      18         A    Yes.

      19         Q    Throughout that entire time or just

      20    part of the time?

      21         A    Part --

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks








                                                            61


       1    foundation.

       2              THE WITNESS:  Part of the time.

       3              BY MR. GARREN:

       4         Q    During the time that you were

       5    employed with the Office of Personnel

       6    Security and Mr. Nussbuam was employed as the

       7    counsel to the President, was Mr. Nussbuam a

       8    common presence at the Office of Personnel

       9    Security?

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Vague and

      11    ambiguous.  Compound.  Leading.

      12              THE WITNESS:  No.

      13              BY MR. GARREN:

      14         Q    How often did you see Mr. Nussbuam

      15    in the Office of Personnel Security during

      16    your tenure in the office?

      17         A    I never saw him in the office.

      18         Q    Are you aware of Mr. Nussbuam at

      19    any time coming to the office to review any

      20    of the files of the office?

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      22    foundation.  Leading.








                                                            62


       1              THE WITNESS:  No.

       2              BY MR. GARREN:

       3         Q    Are you aware of Mr. Nussbuam ever

       4    expressing any interest whatsoever in the

       5    update project while it was being performed

       6    in the Office of Personnel Security or after?

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Vague and

       8    ambiguous.  Leading.  Lacks foundation.

       9              THE WITNESS:  No.

      10              BY MR. GARREN:

      11         Q    Are you aware of Mr. Nussbuam ever

      12    expressing any interest whatsoever in any of

      13    the file summaries obtained by the Office of

      14    Personnel Security from the FBI in the course

      15    of the update project?

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      17    foundation.  Compound.  Leading.  Vague and

      18    ambiguous.

      19              THE WITNESS:  No.

      20              BY MR. GARREN:

      21         Q    Are you aware of form sheets used

      22    by the Office of Personnel Security to








                                                            63


       1    request background investigation file

       2    summaries from the FBI in the course of the

       3    update project?

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Compound.

       5    Leading.  Lacks foundation.  Vague and

       6    ambiguous.

       7              BY MR. GARREN:

       8         Q    Do you understand the question?

       9         A    Yes.

      10         Q    Are you aware of the form sheets I

      11    referenced?

      12         A    Yes.

      13         Q    Let me show you a document and

      14    please review it.

      15              Ms. Anderson, can you identify this

      16    document?

      17         A    Yes.

      18         Q    What is the document?

      19         A    It's a document requesting a copy

      20    of a previous report.

      21         Q    You note on the second line of the

      22    document Mr. Nussbuam's name appears; is that








                                                            64


       1    correct?

       2         A    Yes.

       3         Q    To your knowledge, what practice

       4    was followed in the Office of Personnel

       5    Security to place Mr. Nussbuam's name on this

       6    form?

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       8    foundation.

       9              THE WITNESS:  It was general

      10    practice to list whoever was the counsel to

      11    the President.  As in previous

      12    administrations.  C. Boyden Gray for

      13    President Bush was the name that it would say

      14    from, and then when Mr. Cutler became

      15    counsel, it was his name and then when

      16    Mr. Mikva became counsel, it was his name.

      17              BY MR. GARREN:

      18         Q    Did Mr. Nussbuam play any role in

      19    placing his name on this form sheet?

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      21    foundation.  Leading.

      22              THE WITNESS:  No.








                                                            65


       1              BY MR. GARREN:

       2         Q    Were form sheets used like this to

       3    request information from the FBI?

       4         A    Yes.

       5         Q    Before the forms were sent to the

       6    FBI to request the information, were the

       7    forms provided to Mr. Nussbuam for his

       8    review?

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Compound.

      10    Lacks foundation.  Leading.

      11              THE WITNESS:  No.

      12              MR. GARREN:  Please mark this as

      13    Exhibit No. 1 to the deposition.

      14                   (Anderson Deposition Exhibit

      15                   No. 1 was marked for

      16                   identification.)

      17              BY MR. GARREN:

      18         Q    Now let me ask you to turn your

      19    attention to Nancy Gemmell.  Do you know who

      20    Nancy Gemmell is?

      21         A    Yes.

      22         Q    Do you recall working with her in








                                                            66


       1    the Office of Personnel Security in 1993?

       2         A    Yes.

       3         Q    What position did Ms. Gemmell hold

       4    with the Office of Personnel Security when

       5    you began there in February of '93?

       6         A    Executive assistant.

       7         Q    To your knowledge, was Ms. Gemmell

       8    a holdover employee from prior presidential

       9    administrations?

      10         A    Yes.

      11         Q    Are you aware generally of how long

      12    she had been with the Office of Personnel

      13    Security at the time that you started at the

      14    office?

      15         A    I believe it was 19 years and some

      16    odd months.

      17         Q    Now, in your experience with

      18    working with Ms. Gemmell in the Office of

      19    Personnel Security did you consider her prior

      20    experience in the office to be an asset to

      21    the office?

      22         A    Yes.








                                                            67


       1         Q    Did you consider her to be

       2    knowledgeable about the proper rules and

       3    procedures in the Office of Personnel

       4    Security at the time that you began working

       5    there?

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       7    foundation.  Vague and ambiguous.

       8              THE WITNESS:  Extremely

       9    knowledgeable.

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  And leading.

      11              BY MR. GARREN:

      12         Q    Now, during your experience working

      13    with Ms. Gemmell in the Office of Personnel

      14    Security, was she someone in the office that

      15    the staff could go to for guidance and

      16    instruction?

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

      18    Compound.

      19              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      20              BY MR. GARREN:

      21         Q    Did you often seek guidance from

      22    Ms. Gemmell during your employment with the








                                                            68


       1    Office of Personnel Security?

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

       3    Vague and ambiguous.

       4              THE WITNESS:  Yes, when I had a

       5    question as to what the procedure was.

       6              BY MR. GARREN:

       7         Q    Did you observe other people in the

       8    office go to Ms. Gemmell to seek guidance and

       9    instruction about how to do their work?

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      11    foundation.  Leading.

      12              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      13              BY MR. GARREN:

      14         Q    Is it fair to say that Ms. Gemmell

      15    was heavily relied upon by the OPS staff

      16    during your tenure there?

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      18    foundation.  Leading.

      19              THE WITNESS:  Yes, she was the

      20    encyclopedia.

      21              BY MR. GARREN:

      22         Q    In your experience with








                                                            69


       1    Ms. Gemmell, did you find that the advice or

       2    instruction that she gave you was generally

       3    accurate and helpful?

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Vague and

       5    ambiguous.  Leading.

       6              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Lacks foundation.

       8              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       9              BY MR. GARREN:

      10         Q    Did Ms. Gemmell assume any kind of

      11    training role or position in the office in

      12    1993?

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      14    foundation.  Leading.  Vague and ambiguous.

      15    Compound.

      16              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      17              BY MR. GARREN:

      18         Q    Explain what you observed in terms

      19    of Ms. Gemmell assuming a training role in

      20    the office.

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection.

      22              THE WITNESS:  What would happen is








                                                            70


       1    if we had a question we would ask Nancy how

       2    does this procedure work, what is this, or if

       3    something came into the office that we didn't

       4    know what to do with, we would be, like, we

       5    don't understand what this request is.  Can

       6    we grant it?  Can we not grant it?  Can we do

       7    this?  Can we do that?  And she would either

       8    say, yes, no.  This is the law.  This isn't

       9    the law.  This is by executive order.  This

      10    is by national law or congressional mandate

      11    or whatever.  She knew it inside and out.

      12              BY MR. GARREN:

      13         Q    During the time that you worked

      14    with Ms. Gemmell in the Office of Personnel

      15    Security, was there anyone in the office or

      16    out of the office who you considered more

      17    knowledgeable about the rules and procedures

      18    of the office?

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      20    foundation.  Leading.

      21              THE WITNESS:  No.

      22              BY MR. GARREN:








                                                            71


       1         Q    If the two of you, that is,

       2    Ms. Gemmell and you, had any different

       3    memories about the way things previously

       4    worked in the Office of Personnel Security,

       5    would you tend to defer to her knowledge

       6    about the matter?

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       8    foundation.  Compound.  Leading.  Vague and

       9    ambiguous.

      10              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      11              BY MR. GARREN:

      12         Q    And why is that?

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection.

      14              THE WITNESS:  She had been doing it

      15    longer and she knew the procedures better.

      16              BY MR. GARREN:

      17         Q    During your employment with the

      18    Office of Personnel Security, were you aware

      19    of Mr. Livingstone taking any action to keep

      20    Ms. Gemmell on the staff of the Office of

      21    Personnel Security?

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.








                                                            72


       1    Lacks foundation.  Vague and ambiguous.

       2              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       3              BY MR. GARREN:

       4         Q    What are you aware of what

       5    Mr. Livingstone did with respect to keeping

       6    Ms. Gemmell on the staff?

       7         A    My understanding was that when I

       8    started at The White House she was supposed

       9    to be as a holdover leaving the office

      10    relatively soon, and because no one in the

      11    office knew the procedures, knew the law, he

      12    fought to keep her on.

      13         Q    Do you have any knowledge as to why

      14    efforts were made to keep her in the office

      15    after the Clinton Administration took over?

      16         A    So that we would have someone to go

      17    to if we had questions.

      18         Q    Now, do you recall approximately

      19    how long Ms. Gemmell stayed in the office

      20    into the Clinton Administration?

      21         A    I believe it was until August

      22    because she needed those -- that's how long








                                                            73


       1    she needed to acquire the 20 years or

       2    something like that, so she could take early

       3    retirement.

       4         Q    Do you recall whether Ms. Gemmell

       5    and Mr. Marceca ever worked in the office at

       6    the same time?

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       8    foundation.  Vague and ambiguous.

       9              BY MR. GARREN:

      10         Q    Let me rephrase it.  Do you recall

      11    whether Ms. Gemmell retired from the office

      12    before Mr. Marceca began his detail?

      13         A    Before he physically began working

      14    in the office?

      15         Q    Yes.

      16         A    Yes.

      17         Q    Do you know approximately how long

      18    before Mr. Marceca began working in the

      19    office Ms. Gemmell retired?

      20         A    I believe within a week of her

      21    retirement.  Exact time period, I'm not sure.

      22    Ask me four years ago, I could have told you.








                                                            74


       1         Q    Now, Ms. Anderson, I'd like you to

       2    turn your attention to the update project.

       3    Do you recall generally what the update

       4    project was in the Office of Personnel

       5    Security?

       6         A    Yes.

       7         Q    Tell me in general terms, as best

       8    you can recall, what were the aims of the

       9    update project.

      10         A    From my understanding, it was

      11    required either by law or executive order,

      12    but I believe it was law that all current

      13    administration employees, whether they be

      14    holdovers or not, had to have -- we had to

      15    maintain a file on those employees.  So we

      16    would order as an active pass list from

      17    Secret Service, and based on that list that's

      18    how we would determine who had access and who

      19    we needed to retrieve a file on or create a

      20    file.

      21         Q    To your understanding, did update

      22    project have to be performed after each








                                                            75


       1    change of administration?

       2         A    Yes, because every record that was

       3    contained or created during administration

       4    becomes a presidential record, and,

       5    therefore, it then is archived into the

       6    presidential libraries.

       7         Q    And was it necessary after the

       8    files were removed, the security files were

       9    removed, to recreate the files on holdover

      10    employees?

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

      12    Compound.

      13              THE WITNESS:  Yes, because we had

      14    no files.

      15              BY MR. GARREN:

      16         Q    And why was it important to have

      17    the files?

      18         A    As I previously stated, I think it

      19    was mandated by law that we had to have the

      20    files.

      21         Q    Was there any requirement to do a

      22    reinvestigation on holdover employees after a








                                                            76


       1    certain period of time?

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

       3    Compound.

       4              THE WITNESS:  Yes, by law every

       5    person who is employed in the compound had to

       6    have a five-year reinvestigation.

       7              BY MR. GARREN:

       8         Q    Was it possible prior to recreating

       9    the files to know when holdover employees had

      10    had their last investigation?

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

      12    Compound.

      13              THE WITNESS:  No.  As I had said,

      14    those files had already been archived and we

      15    had no copies.

      16              BY MR. GARREN:

      17         Q    How were the files recreated in the

      18    Office of Personnel Security in the course of

      19    the update project?

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      21    foundation.  Compound.

      22              THE WITNESS:  Again, as stated








                                                            77


       1    before, we would request an active pass list

       2    from the Secret Service.

       3              BY MR. GARREN:

       4         Q    Was any kind of request made to any

       5    other agency to obtain the files?

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

       7              THE WITNESS:  The people would be

       8    identified by the Secret Service, and then we

       9    would have to request the files from the FBI.

      10              BY MR. GARREN:

      11         Q    Now, Ms. Anderson, do you recall

      12    who in the Office of Personnel Security first

      13    mentioned the need to conduct an update

      14    project?

      15         A    That would have been Nancy Gemmell.

      16         Q    Did Ms. Gemmell bring the need to

      17    conduct an update project to your attention?

      18         A    To the office attention, yes.

      19         Q    Do you recall whether she mentioned

      20    it to Mr. Livingstone?

      21         A    I'm not 100 percent certain, but I

      22    believe she did.








                                                            78


       1         Q    When Ms. Gemmell brought up the

       2    need to conduct an update project --

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       4    foundation.  Move to strike the last three

       5    questions and responses.

       6              MR. GARREN:  I think she previously

       7    testified that Ms. Gemmell brought it up.

       8              BY MR. GARREN:

       9         Q    Let us make sure.  Was it

      10    Ms. Gemmell who first brought up the need to

      11    conduct an update project?

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      13    foundation and leading.

      14              THE WITNESS:  Finished?

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

      16              THE WITNESS:  It would have had to

      17    have been Ms. Gemmell because she was the

      18    only one who would have known about it.

      19              BY MR. GARREN:

      20         Q    Do you recall whether she generally

      21    explained to the staff the procedures

      22    necessary to conduct the update project?








                                                            79


       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       2    foundation.  Leading.  Compound.

       3              THE WITNESS:  Do you mean as the

       4    whole office?

       5              BY MR. GARREN:

       6         Q    Right.

       7         A    I don't believe she explained it to

       8    the staff as a whole office, no.

       9         Q    Did she explain it to anyone?

      10         A    Yes.

      11         Q    Who did she explain it to?

      12         A    I was given a brief overview.  I

      13    believe Tony was given the steps.  I'm not

      14    sure if Craig knew or not.

      15         Q    Ms. Anderson, is it fair to say

      16    that what you know about the rules and

      17    procedures for conducting the update project

      18    came from Ms. Gemmell?

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      20    foundation.  Leading.

      21              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      22              BY MR. GARREN:








                                                            80


       1         Q    Was she considered the expert in

       2    the office on the rules and procedures for

       3    conducting the update project?

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       5    foundation.

       6              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Leading.

       8              BY MR. GARREN:

       9         Q    Did you rely on her knowledge as to

      10    what needed to be done and how it should be

      11    done in the course of the update project?

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      13    foundation.  Leading.

      14              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      15              BY MR. GARREN:

      16         Q    Now, after Ms. Gemmell brought up

      17    the need to conduct the update project, did

      18    she, to your knowledge, receive any kind of

      19    instruction or approval from Mr. Livingstone

      20    to commence the project?

      21         A    I believe he did say let's go ahead

      22    and begin.








                                                            81


       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Hearsay.

       2    Move to strike.

       3              BY MR. GARREN:

       4         Q    And did you have any understanding

       5    as to whether she intended to conduct the

       6    update project in any fashion differently

       7    than it had been conducted in prior

       8    administrations?

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

      10    Compound.

      11              THE WITNESS:  No.

      12              BY MR. GARREN:

      13         Q    Was it your understanding she

      14    intended to conduct --

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  And lacks foundation.

      16              BY MR. GARREN:

      17         Q    Was it your understanding she

      18    intended to conduct the project in the same

      19    fashion that it had been conducted in prior

      20    administrations?

      21         A    Yes.

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection.








                                                            82


       1              BY MR. GARREN:

       2         Q    Are you aware of Ms. Gemmell being

       3    given any instructions by Mr. Livingstone to

       4    conduct the update project in any fashion

       5    differently than it had been conducted in

       6    prior administrations?

       7         A    No.

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Compound.

       9    Leading.

      10              BY MR. GARREN:

      11         Q    Are you aware, Ms. Anderson, of

      12    anyone --

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  And lacks foundation.

      14              BY MR. GARREN:

      15         Q    Are you aware, Ms. Anderson, of

      16    anyone giving Ms. Gemmell any instructions to

      17    conduct the update project in any fashion

      18    differently than it had been conducted in

      19    prior administrations?

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Compound.

      21    Leading.  Lacks foundation.  Vague and

      22    ambiguous.








                                                            83


       1              THE WITNESS:  No.

       2              BY MR. GARREN:

       3         Q    Now, you previously testified that

       4    you were told by Mr. Livingstone at some

       5    point before Mr. Marceca began his detail

       6    that one of the planned assignments for

       7    Mr. Marceca would be to work on the update

       8    project; is that right?

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

      10              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      11              BY MR. GARREN:

      12         Q    Do you have personal knowledge

      13    whether Mr. Livingstone ever told Ms. Gemmell

      14    that he intended to have Mr. Marceca work on

      15    the update project?

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Compound.

      17    Leading.

      18              THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure, no.  I

      19    thought that it had been but I'm not sure.

      20              BY MR. GARREN:

      21         Q    Is it possible that Ms. Gemmell

      22    might not have known that Mr. Marceca would








                                                            84


       1    be working on the update project when he

       2    began his detail?

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Calls for

       4    speculation.  Leading.  Lacks foundation.

       5    Vague and ambiguous.

       6              BY MR. GARREN:

       7         Q    You can answer the question.

       8         A    Yes.

       9         Q    Now, Ms. Anderson, do you recall

      10    Mr. Marceca coming to the Office of Personnel

      11    Security shortly before he was to start his

      12    detail in the office?

      13         A    Yes.

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Vague as

      15    to time.

      16              BY MR. GARREN:

      17         Q    Do you recall approximately when

      18    that was in relationship to his starting the

      19    detail in August of '93?

      20         A    I believe it was either one or two

      21    days, about a week before he was supposed to

      22    start, I think.








                                                            85


       1         Q    Do you recall on that occasion when

       2    Mr. Marceca came to the office before his

       3    detail was to begin that Mr. Marceca and

       4    Ms. Gemmell sat down and had any kind of

       5    discussion?

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

       7    Lacks foundation.

       8              THE WITNESS:  Can you repeat the

       9    question?

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  Vague.

      11              BY MR. GARREN:

      12         Q    Do you recall when Mr. Marceca came

      13    to the office before his detail was to begin

      14    whether he met with Ms. Gemmell?

      15         A    Yes.

      16         Q    And where did they meet?

      17         A    Primarily, I believe, it was in the

      18    vault.

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same objection.

      20              THE WITNESS:  In the vault.

      21              BY MR. GARREN:

      22         Q    Now, was it your understanding that








                                                            86


       1    when they met Ms. Gemmell was discussing the

       2    procedures of the office with Mr. Marceca?

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       4    foundation.  Vague.  Leading.  Vague.

       5              THE WITNESS:  That was my

       6    understanding.

       7              BY MR. GARREN:

       8         Q    Do you recall your deposition being

       9    taken by the Senate concerning this matter?

      10         A    Oh, yeah.

      11         Q    And do you recall testifying in

      12    your Senate deposition that it was your

      13    understanding that Ms. Gemmell gave

      14    Mr. Marceca a detailed explanation of how the

      15    update project was to be conducted at the

      16    time that they met before Mr. Marceca began

      17    his detail?

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Compound.

      19    Leading.  Vague.

      20              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      21              BY MR. GARREN:

      22         Q    Now, referencing this particular








                                                            87


       1    meeting that Ms. Gemmell and Mr. Marceca had

       2    before Mr. Marceca began his work in the

       3    office, did you actually sit in on that

       4    meeting?

       5         A    No.

       6         Q    Did you personally hear what was

       7    discussed in the meeting?

       8         A    No.

       9         Q    Is it fair to say, Ms. Anderson,

      10    that when you indicated in your Senate

      11    deposition that Ms. Gemmell had given

      12    Mr. Marceca a detailed description of the

      13    update project and how it was to be

      14    conducted, that that was an assumption on

      15    your part?

      16         A    Yes.

      17         Q    Now, Ms. Anderson --

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

      19    Move to strike.

      20              BY MR. GARREN:

      21         Q    Ms. Anderson, did you personally

      22    ever explain to Mr. Marceca how he should go








                                                            88


       1    about conducting the update project?

       2         A    Not to my memory.

       3         Q    Let's turn back to Ms. Gemmell and

       4    conducting the update project.  Are you aware

       5    of Ms. Gemmell obtaining a list from the

       6    Secret Service to conduct the update project?

       7         A    Yes.

       8         Q    Do you recall specifically seeing

       9    the list that she obtained from the Secret

      10    Service to conduct the update project?

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      12    foundation.

      13              THE WITNESS:  I recall seeing a

      14    multitude of lists, and since then, yes, I

      15    have seen that list a number of times.

      16              BY MR. GARREN:

      17         Q    When you say she received the list

      18    from the Secret Service, how do you know the

      19    list that she obtained to conduct the update

      20    project was a Secret Service list?

      21         A    Because it was on paper like that

      22    that's in front of me; that is, the big 11 by








                                                            89


       1    17 computer green and white paper.

       2         Q    Is it your testimony you recall

       3    Ms. Gemmell obtaining a list to conduct the

       4    update project from the Secret Service?

       5         A    I believe so, yes.

       6         Q    And was the list that she obtained

       7    on this type of paper?

       8         A    Yes.

       9         Q    Did it have the green and white

      10    stripes on it that this paper has?

      11         A    Yes.

      12         Q    Did it have the holes in the margin

      13    that are present in this paper?

      14         A    Yes.

      15              MR. GARREN:  Please mark this as

      16    Exhibit No. 2.

      17                   (Anderson Deposition Exhibit

      18                   No. 2 was marked for

      19                   identification.)

      20              BY MR. GARREN:

      21         Q    Now, with respect, Ms. Anderson, to

      22    the list that Ms. Gemmell obtained from the








                                                            90


       1    Secret Service to conduct the update project,

       2    do you recall generally what the list was

       3    comprised of?

       4         A    Generally, I believe it was

       5    comprised of full name, first, last, middle

       6    initial; pass type; office that they worked

       7    in; date of birth; place of birth; Social

       8    Security number.

       9         Q    Was it your understanding that the

      10    list included active passholders, inactive

      11    passholders, or a combination of those two?

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.

      13    Vague and ambiguous.  Lacks foundation.

      14              THE WITNESS:  They would have all

      15    been active.

      16              BY MR. GARREN:

      17         Q    Now, do you know why Ms. Gemmell

      18    would need a list of active passholders with

      19    full names, date of birth, place of birth,

      20    and Social Security number in order to

      21    conduct the update project?

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Compound.








                                                            91


       1    Lacks foundation.

       2              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       3              BY MR. GARREN:

       4         Q    Why was that?

       5         A    In order to request a report or a

       6    name check from the FBI, you needed more than

       7    just the name for the identifier.

       8         Q    Now let me refer you back to

       9    Exhibit No. 1 in your deposition.  Is there

      10    any place on this document that that kind of

      11    information, date of birth, place of birth,

      12    Social Security number, would have been

      13    entered in order to request file summaries

      14    from the FBI?

      15         A    Yes.

      16         Q    And where is that?

      17         A    Underneath the name and beside the

      18    name would be the -- beside the name would be

      19    the Social Security number; underneath the

      20    name would be date of birth and place of

      21    birth.

      22         Q    Do you recall, Ms. Anderson, that








                                                            92


       1    after Ms. Gemmell obtained the secret list to

       2    conduct the update project whether she

       3    arranged for the creation of any file folders

       4    or labels to be produced?

       5         A    Yes.

       6         Q    Tell us about that.  What did she

       7    do in regard to the creation of file folders

       8    and labels in the course of the update

       9    project?

      10         A    If my memory serves me correct,

      11    what she would do is create the files with

      12    the labels and then the name checks or the

      13    forms for the copies of the previous reports

      14    would then be filed in a separate drawer

      15    awaiting the response from the FBI.

      16         Q    Do you recall whether she used

      17    interns or volunteers to assist in creating

      18    tabs and file folders?

      19         A    By that time, there were no more

      20    volunteers in the office.  It was all

      21    interns.

      22         Q    Do you recall whether she used








                                                            93


       1    interns to create file folders and labels in

       2    the course of the update project?

       3         A    I believe she did use interns.

       4         Q    Do you know how far Ms. Gemmell got

       5    on the update project before she retired from

       6    the office?

       7         A    No.

       8         Q    Now, this secret service list that

       9    you mentioned that Ms. Gemmell had obtained

      10    for the purposes of conducting the update

      11    project, do you recall whether she left the

      12    list behind in the office when she retired

      13    from the Office of Personnel Security?

      14         A    Yes.

      15         Q    Where did she leave that list?

      16         A    In the vault, in the file drawer

      17    next to the one where she had the active

      18    files or the file she had activated.

      19         Q    Was it your understanding that she

      20    left the list behind for the purposes of use

      21    in completing the update project?

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Leading.








                                                            94


       1    Compound.  Vague and ambiguous.

       2              THE WITNESS:  That would be my

       3    understanding.

       4              BY MR. GARREN:

       5         Q    Do you know whether Tony Marceca

       6    found the list that Ms. Gemmell had left

       7    behind when he began his detail at the Office

       8    of Personnel Security?

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      10    foundation.  Vague and ambiguous.  Compound.

      11              THE WITNESS:  I believe so.

      12              BY MR. GARREN:

      13         Q    And did he use the list in

      14    conducting the update project?

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      16    foundation.

      17              BY MR. GARREN:

      18         Q    To your knowledge?

      19              MR. GARREN:  I'm sorry.  I didn't

      20    mean to cut you off.  Go ahead finish your

      21    objection.

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Lacks foundation.








                                                            95


       1    Leading.

       2              BY MR. GARREN:

       3         Q    Did he use the list, to your

       4    knowledge, in conducting the update project?

       5         A    Yes.

       6         Q    Now, let me show you Nancy

       7    Gemmell's declaration in this case.  Really,

       8    what I want you to focus on at this point is

       9    the attachment to the declaration, and before

      10    you begin to review this, I want to make

      11    certain representations about this document.

      12              First, I want you to assume that

      13    the original of this document is on the same

      14    type of paper which is Exhibit 2 to your

      15    deposition.

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Improper

      17    question.

      18              BY MR. GARREN:

      19         Q    Secondly, in reviewing the

      20    document, I want you to understand that

      21    information related to date of birth, place

      22    of birth, Social Security, and pass type was








                                                            96


       1    on the original document but has been

       2    redacted from this document for privacy

       3    purposes.  Do you understand?

       4         A    Yes.

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       6    foundation.

       7              BY MR. GARREN:

       8         Q    Third, I want to explain to you

       9    that there are numbers in the margin that

      10    were there for identification purposes but

      11    were not on the original of the document.  Do

      12    you understand?

      13         A    Yes.

      14         Q    Now please review the document.

      15    You can look through it generally.

      16              I want you to be comfortable

      17    generally with what's in the document.  Now,

      18    accepting these representations that I've

      19    made to you about the information that was

      20    redacted from this document, does this

      21    document include the general types of

      22    information that were needed in order to








                                                            97


       1    conduct the update project?

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       3    foundation.  Vague and ambiguous.

       4              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       5              BY MR. GARREN:

       6         Q    Now, you previously mentioned that

       7    Ms. Gemmell had at some point mentioned to

       8    Mr. Livingstone the need to conduct the

       9    update project; is that correct?

      10         A    Yes.

      11         Q    And you mentioned that at some

      12    point Mr. Livingstone approved Ms. Gemmell's

      13    initiating the update project; is that

      14    correct?

      15         A    Yes.

      16         Q    Note the date on this list.  What's

      17    the date?

      18         A    I am not sure.  I believe it looks

      19    to be 6/10/93, but I can't read the first

      20    part of it.

      21         Q    Assuming the date is June 10, 1993,

      22    is that date within the general time period








                                                            98


       1    in which Ms. Gemmell brought up to

       2    Mr. Livingstone the need to conduct the

       3    update project?

       4         A    I believe so.

       5         Q    Is it within the general time

       6    period when Mr. Livingstone approved

       7    Ms. Gemmell's initiation of the project?

       8         A    I believe so.

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

      10    foundation on the last two questions and move

      11    to strike.

      12              BY MR. GARREN:

      13         Q    Now, I want to focus your attention

      14    on a particular handwritten notation on the

      15    list.  The page that I'm referencing has

      16    identification number on it as CGE 056186.

      17    There is a notation in the top right-hand

      18    margin.  Can you read that notation?

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Excuse me.  What page

      20    are you on here?

      21              MR. GILLIGAN:  56186.  It's

      22    approximately a third to halfway through the








                                                            99


       1    list.

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay, thank you.

       3              MR. GARREN:  I'll let you find it

       4    before I --

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.

       6              MR. GARREN:  Do you have it,

       7    Mr. Klayman?

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

       9              BY MR. GARREN:

      10         Q    Can you read that notation,

      11    Ms. Anderson?

      12         A    Yes.

      13         Q    What does it say?

      14         A    "Labels completed 7/2/93."

      15         Q    Do you recognize this handwriting?

      16         A    No.

      17         Q    Does this notation have any

      18    potential relevance, in your mind, to the

      19    update project conducted by the Office of

      20    Personnel Security?

      21         A    Yes.

      22         Q    Explain what relevance this








                                                            100


       1    notation has to the update project.

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Objection.  Lacks

       3    foundation.  Vague and ambiguous.  Leading.

       4              THE WITNESS:  That labels would

       5    have been created for the files.

       6              BY MR. GARREN:

       7         Q    And why is that relevant to the

       8    update project?

       9         A    In order to have a file, you had to

      10    have a name on it, and in order to -- for

      11    purposes of filing, you had to have an actual

      12    physical folder.

      13         Q    Were you aware of Ms. Gemmell

      14    arranging for the creation of labels for the

      15    update project before file summaries were

      16    requested from the FBI?

      17         A    Vaguely, yes.

      18         Q    And does this statement, "Labels

      19    Completed 7/2/93," potentially relate to that

      20    process of creating labels for the update

      21    project?

      22         A    Yes.

 

Goto

Previous Section / Next Section

of this deposition