151
1 Q Are you aware of Mr. Livingstone
2 ever encouraging or instructing anyone not to
3 make entries in the log system when files
4 were removed?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of him
7 saying -- of any sort of instructions not to
8 keep the log.
9 BY MR. GARREN:
10 Q Are you aware of Mr. Livingstone
11 sometimes personally removing files from the
12 office?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
14 Assumes facts not in evidence.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q And when Mr. Livingstone would
18 remove files from the office, did he always
19 make an entry in the log, to your knowledge?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
21 foundation.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
152
1 BY MR. GARREN:
2 Q Why was that?
3 A They were kept in his custody the
4 whole time, and he would be -- he would walk
5 them up to Mr. Kennedy for his meetings with
6 Mr. Kennedy, and then after Mr. Kennedy left
7 it was Beth Nolan that, if there was an
8 issue, they would discuss it.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
10 foundation.
11 BY MR. GARREN:
12 Q Other than files removed by
13 Mr. Livingstone that he kept in his
14 possession, were you aware of any files ever
15 being removed from the office in which an
16 entry was not made in the log?
17 A Yes. Objection. Leading.
18 Compound.
19 BY MR. GARREN:
20 Q When was that?
21 A Entries would not be made into the
22 log when we sent the file to Secret Service
153
1 for review of permanent pass.
2 Q Other than Mr. Livingstone removing
3 files from the office that he kept in his
4 custody and files sent to Secret Service, are
5 you aware of any other situations when files
6 were removed from the office and no entry was
7 made in the log?
8 A No, and to clarify a point --
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
10 THE WITNESS: To clarify a point,
11 it was only the background investigations
12 that would have been removed from the office
13 that would have gone into the log. Rarely
14 would it have been the whole file, and, if it
15 had been the file, it was noted exactly that
16 it was the file.
17 BY MR. GARREN:
18 Q Were you aware of Mr. Livingstone
19 ever removing any of the files from the
20 update project from the Office of Personnel
21 Security at any time for any reason?
22 A No.
154
1 Q Do you recall in your Senate
2 deposition testifying concerning a gap in the
3 log?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Do you recall testifying in your
6 Senate deposition that you thought the gap
7 was due possibly to missing pages?
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Senate
9 testimony's the best evidence. Leading.
10 Lacks foundation.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 BY MR. GARREN:
13 Q Do you have any personal knowledge
14 of anyone removing any pages from the log?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you have any idea what could
17 have happened to those missing pages or where
18 they may be?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for
20 speculation.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. GARREN:
155
1 Q Are you certain that there are
2 missing pages from the log?
3 A I have a vague recollection of
4 making entries, but as to missing pages I'm
5 not certain.
6 Q Is it possible that there was any
7 laxity in keeping the log during the time
8 period of the gap in the log?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
10 foundation. Leading. Compound.
11 THE WITNESS: I believe I
12 previously stated that the log was maintained
13 by the office and that sometimes I would not
14 be available to make those entries, so I am
15 not sure if -- I mean, I tried to make sure
16 that if I was in the office it was
17 maintained, but I can't guarantee 100 percent
18 it was completely maintained.
19 MR. GARREN: Just one moment.
20 All right, we'll break for lunch
21 now.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine.
156
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
2 video record at 12:12.
3 (Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., a
4 luncheon recess was taken.)
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157
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (1:25 p.m.)
3 Whereupon,
4 MARI LYNNE ANDERSON
5 was recalled as the witness and, having been
6 previously duly sworn, was examined and
7 testified further as follows:
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on
9 video record at 1:25 p.m.
10 MR. GARREN: Before we move on,
11 before the break Ms. Anderson had testified
12 concerning this August 1, '93, list. I'd
13 like to have it marked as Exhibit No. 4 to
14 the deposition.
15 (Anderson Deposition Exhibit
16 No. 4 was marked for
17 identification.)
18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS
19 CONTINUED
20 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
21 Q Hi, Ms. Anderson. As you know, my
22 name is Jim Gilligan. I'm also an attorney
158
1 with the Department of Justice. I have just
2 a few questions for you to follow up on some
3 of the things that you were talking about
4 with Mr. Garren. The first thing I'd like to
5 talk about briefly is the OPS vault. How
6 many entrances were there to the OPS vault?
7 A One.
8 Q And where was that entrance
9 located?
10 A In the office. If you walked into
11 the office, it was to the right side, mid-
12 wall.
13 Q Was there any way to enter the OPS
14 vault without first entering the OPS office
15 itself?
16 A No.
17 Q Did the vault have a lock on it?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What kind of a lock was it?
20 A It was an armed combination lock.
21 It was a skiff.
22 Q And who had the combination to the
159
1 vault?
2 A Staff members only.
3 Q Staff members, is that to say of
4 the Office of Personnel Security?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Did volunteers who worked in the
7 Office of Personnel Security have the
8 combination to the vault?
9 A No.
10 Q Did interns who worked in OPS have
11 the combination to the vault?
12 A No.
13 Q Can you tell us during nonbusiness
14 hours was the vault left open or was it
15 closed?
16 A During nonbusiness hours, if a
17 staff member was working in the vault, yes.
18 If it was -- if all staff members had left
19 the office, it was always closed.
20 Q So, to clarify, if it was
21 nonbusiness hours but a member of the staff
22 was there, it would be open?
160
1 A Yes.
2 Q But if no staff member was there it
3 was closed?
4 A It was closed, and sometimes --
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
6 THE WITNESS: And sometimes, if we
7 would stay late, we did not need the vault
8 open -- if I stayed late or Craig stayed late
9 or Lisa, we would go ahead and close the
10 vault.
11 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
12 Q If it was closed, was it locked or
13 would it be unlocked?
14 A It would be locked.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
16 MR. GILLIGAN: I asked it both
17 ways.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: So you did.
19 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
20 Q Now, you testified earlier, I
21 believe, that interns and volunteers worked
22 in the Office of Personnel Security during
161
1 the time you also worked there, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Were interns and volunteers allowed
4 access to the vault?
5 A Only if staff members were present.
6 Q And if staff members were not
7 present?
8 A No.
9 Q What would be the procedure if,
10 say, during the middle of the day there were
11 interns or volunteers in the vault and all
12 the staff members had to leave the office for
13 some reason?
14 A We would pull them out of the
15 vault, close it up, call Secret Service, and
16 tell them we had closed the vault.
17 Q Why would you call the Secret
18 Service?
19 A Any time you opened or closed that
20 particular vault, there was an alarm on it
21 and you had to notify Secret Service and
22 there was a list of people who could or have
162
1 authority to say we have just opened the
2 vault or closed it, whichever the case may
3 be.
4 Q Are you aware of there ever having
5 been unauthorized access to the vault?
6 A No.
7 Q I'd like, then, to talk about a
8 little more about who would have access to
9 files that were maintained by OPS. Can you
10 tell me, to the best of your recollection,
11 who was authorized to have access to OPS
12 files?
13 A Define what you mean by "access."
14 Q Well, let me break it down, then.
15 Were all members of the staff allowed to have
16 possession of OPS files?
17 A To work with, yes.
18 Q And what did you mean by that
19 qualifier?
20 A Interns were allowed to place
21 things in the file, but they were not allowed
22 to just pull a random file out and read it.
163
1 They had access to files but not for any
2 other reason.
3 Q And did OPS staff members as
4 opposed to volunteers or interns have a
5 greater level of access under any
6 understanding of that word to the files?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
8 THE WITNESS: The use that we would
9 have would be we mainly -- there were so many
10 of them. Our main use was to, if Bill
11 Kennedy had called down and wanted to review
12 or if Craig wanted to review something, that
13 is how we would use it. Also, we would use
14 it in the sense that, had they met all
15 requirements for permanent pass, what did
16 they need to do, what did they not need to
17 do.
18 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
19 Q And was this a level of review or
20 use of OPS files that was permitted of the
21 interns or volunteers?
22 A No.
164
1 Q Did anyone in The White House
2 counsel's office have access to the files?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And who in the counsel's office?
5 A Bill Kennedy and his superiors, if
6 they requested it, or Beth Nolan or someone
7 under their direction.
8 And there is one qualifier that I
9 do need to make, that sometimes we did have
10 the interns go through and say who --
11 because, if you opened up a file, if I had
12 given you a file and you opened it up on one
13 of the jackets, the facing jacket would have
14 been a list saying this is what needs to be
15 done and things would be checked off as to
16 whether or not their background investigation
17 had come in, whether or not they had had
18 their IRS tax check, if they had had their
19 personal interview, if they had had their
20 security briefing and that would be checked
21 and we would randomly have interns -- we
22 would, say, collect a list for us if we
165
1 didn't have the time to do it.
2 Q Returning, then, to the counsel's
3 office, did all attorneys in the counsel's
4 office have access to OPS files?
5 A No.
6 Q Anyone other than the persons you
7 named, as far as you know?
8 A I believe at one point there was an
9 attorney. I can't remember his name. I want
10 to say it was ���� in conjunction with OA,
11 the Office of Administration, and he was also
12 a member of counsel's office. At one time he
13 was granted access.
14 Q Were there any other persons
15 outside OPS who had access to the files?
16 A Outside of those previously
17 mentioned, not that I remember.
18 Q What about the United States Secret
19 Service? Did they have any access to OPS
20 files?
21 A Yes, United States Secret Service
22 had the anility since they were law
166
1 enforcement agency to request background
2 investigations from the FBI, so they would
3 retain a copy of the permanent -- I'm sorry,
4 not the permanent, but they would retain a
5 copy of the background investigation as part
6 of filling the request for permanent pass,
7 and they would review the file in its
8 complete form to grant a permanent pass.
9 Q Are you aware of any unauthorized
10 access to OPS files?
11 A No.
12 Q Let's talk then a little bit more
13 about the log that you and Mr. Garren were
14 talking about just before the break. Were
15 files collected on former White House
16 employees ever checked out on the log?
17 A No, if I remember the log
18 correctly, it was only new employees, and it
19 was background investigations that had been
20 completed that had revealed some type of
21 issue that Craig or Mr. Kennedy wanted
22 further investigation on.
167
1 Q Generally speaking, who were files
2 that were checked out on the log checked out
3 to?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and
5 ambiguous.
6 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
7 Q Do you understand the question?
8 A Yes, I understand. Generally, they
9 were checked out to George Saunders, Bill
10 Kennedy, Beth Nolan, and that's all I can
11 remember.
12 Q When files were checked out, to the
13 best of your recollection, what percentage of
14 the time were they checked out to
15 Mr. Saunders?
16 A The majority.
17 Q Fifty percent, seventy-five
18 percent?
19 A I would say closer to about 95, 80
20 to 95 percent.
21 Q Can you please tell us for the
22 record who is Mr. Saunders?
168
1 A George Saunders was an individual
2 that performed -- as I had mentioned earlier
3 we had a requirement of personal interviews
4 in order to receive a permanent pass, and
5 George Saunders is the person who would carry
6 out that task.
7 Q And was the purpose of him checking
8 out the files? Did that have anything to do
9 with his conduct of these personal
10 interviews?
11 A Yes, I believe it did.
12 Q And then, as far as Mr. Kennedy or
13 Ms. Nolan are concerned, do you have any
14 understanding what the purpose was for them
15 to have checked out files?
16 A What they would have checked out,
17 and again, as I stated earlier, what the log
18 was was mostly background investigations. It
19 wasn't the complete file unless it was
20 otherwise noted in that log, and if
21 Mr. Kennedy or Beth Nolan had received a copy
22 of that or had taken the BIs, that was
169
1 generally because there were some issues that
2 they wanted to go over, double check, or --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
4 capacity. Lacks foundation. Calls for
5 speculation. Move to strike.
6 MR. GILLIGAN: I would ask counsel
7 to save his objections for a time when the
8 witness is not speaking.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's exactly
10 what I did, Mr. Gilligan, and the record's
11 clear.
12 MR. GILLIGAN: You interpreted her
13 answer.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: You interrupted me.
15 I think that's the way it worked.
16 MR. GILLIGAN: That's not the way
17 it worked, Mr. Klayman.
18 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
19 Q Could you please complete your
20 answer?
21 A I believe I was saying that if --
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
170
1 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
2 Q Could you please complete your
3 answer, hopefully without interruption?
4 A I believe I was saying that, if
5 Mr. Kennedy or Ms. Nolan or someone from
6 counsel's office had a background
7 investigation, it was because there was an
8 issue that needed further investigation or
9 that there was some concern with.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. Move
11 to strike.
12 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
13 Q Pardon me if I've asked this
14 before, but I just want to make sure the
15 record is clear. Were files that OPS had
16 obtained on former White House employees ever
17 checked out?
18 A Not to my knowledge.
19 Q Let's talk, then, for a moment
20 about Nancy Gemmell. Other than Nancy
21 Gemmell, during the time you served in the
22 Office of Personnel Security, was there
171
1 anybody working in the Office of Personnel
2 Security who had also worked in that office
3 prior to the Clinton Administration?
4 A The first two days to a week -- I'm
5 not exactly sure of the time -- Jane
6 Danenhuener was there. She was the previous
7 director of the office, but she was not there
8 very long.
9 Q And after that Nancy Gemmell was
10 the only holdover in OPS from the prior
11 administration?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And everyone else who worked in the
14 office were new Clinton Administration hires?
15 A Yes.
16 Q To the best of your knowledge,
17 other than Ms. Gemmell did anybody have any
18 knowledge about the procedures that were to
19 be followed with respect to the update
20 project?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
22 capacity. Lacks foundation.
172
1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
3 Q Exhibit No. 1 to the deposition,
4 let's just take a look at that quickly again.
5 This is the previous report request form that
6 you were talking about with Mr. Garren,
7 correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did I understand your testimony
10 earlier to be that these forms were not
11 reviewed by Mr. Nussbuam before they were
12 sent to the FBI?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. She lacks
15 capacity. Lacks foundation. Move to strike.
16 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
17 Q When you say yes, do I understand
18 you to be saying, yes, Mr. Nussbuam did not
19 review the forms?
20 A Yes, we never sent them over for
21 his review.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: She can't testify as
173
1 to what Mr. Nussbuam did or did not do.
2 MR. GILLIGAN: She can testify that
3 the forms were never sent to him.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Based on her
5 knowledge.
6 THE WITNESS: Based on my
7 knowledge, we never sent the forms to
8 Mr. Nussbuam for his review or any following
9 counsel to the President.
10 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
11 Q Were the forms sent to Mr. Kennedy
12 for his review?
13 A No.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
15 Move to strike.
16 BY MR. GILLIGAN:
17 Q Let's talk, then, for a moment
18 about the computers in the Office of
19 Personnel Security. Can you tell us about
20 the computers your office had access to?
21 A There was a Wang computer that was
22 a node stand-alone that was connected to a
174
1 database that was just files of who -- what
2 files we had and a brief description of what
3 was in there. There was also -- at first,
4 when I first entered the office, another
5 computer -- I believe it was a 286 desktop.
6 Then eventually we received a second computer
7 and then a third one, I believe, the third
8 one. I'm not a hundred percent sure.
9 Q Were these in addition to the first
10 computers you mentioned or in replacement of
11 those computers?
12 A In addition to. The Wang computer
13 couldn't do anything other than that
14 database.
15 Q So how many, then, of the desktop
16 computers did the office have at any given
17 time?
18 A I think the max that we had was
19 three, and most of the time I was there I
20 think it was two.
21 Q When did you get the third?
22 A It would have been the latter half
175
1 of my tenure, when Ed Hughes came on board.
2 Q Was this prior to or after the end
3 of Mr. Marceca's detail?
4 A After, I believe.
5 Q So during his detail, you had the
6 two desktop computers; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Well, let me ask the question this
9 way. To what extent did Mr. Marceca use the
10 two desktop computers for purposes of
11 carrying out his responsibilities?
12 A Me and Lisa or Lisa and I were
13 mainly on the computers most of the time we
14 were there, and when Tony needed a computer,
15 it unfortunately was not always available, so
16 he began to bring in a little laptop.
17 Q Do you have any understanding as to
18 whose laptop that was?
19 A Specifically, no.
20 Q He just started bringing in a
21 laptop?
22 A I assumed it was his.
176
1 Q And he used that laptop computer
2 for carrying out his duties at OPS?
3 A Yes.
4 Q The last question I have for you,
5 Ms. Anderson, is, do you recall
6 Mr. Livingstone ever telling you what
7 political party his parents are affiliated
8 with?
9 A No.
10 Q You don't recall whether he ever
11 mentioned that to you?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: You just ask the
13 question. It was clear. Are you trying to
14 suggest something for her?
15 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, you are
16 renowned for asking witnesses the same
17 questions over and over.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I object. Asked and
19 answered.
20 THE WITNESS: I believe I remember
21 something about his parents being Republican,
22 but as to exactly when he told me, I don't
177
1 remember.
2 MR. GILLIGAN: That's fine. I have
3 no further questions. Thank you,
4 Ms. Anderson.
5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Ms. Anderson, other than the Senate
8 deposition and this deposition, have you ever
9 been deposed before or testified in court?
10 A Testified in court, no, deposed,
11 yes.
12 Q When have you been deposed other
13 than the Senate and other than here today?
14 A In a traffic court dispute.
15 Q Have you ever been convicted of a
16 crime, misdemeanor or felony?
17 A No.
18 Q Did there come a point in time when
19 you spoke with the independent counsel's
20 office concerning Filegate?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And when was that?
178
1 A That would be August of '96.
2 Q Did you contact them or did they
3 contact you?
4 A I believe they contacted me.
5 Q Who contacted you?
6 A I don't remember the specific name.
7 Q Do you remember an unspecific name?
8 A Nope.
9 Q Do you remember his first name or
10 her first name?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you remember whether it was a
13 man or woman?
14 A Man.
15 Q How did they contact you?
16 A By phone.
17 Q And where were you at the time?
18 A In Atlanta.
19 Q What were you doing in Atlanta,
20 professionally speaking?
21 A Working at the Olympics.
22 Q Did they ask then to meet with you
179
1 during that phone conversation?
2 A I did not speak to them directly.
3 They spoke to my parents.
4 Q Who did they speak with of your
5 parents?
6 A My father.
7 Q What's his name?
8 A Harold Anderson.
9 Q And what did they say to Harold
10 Anderson?
11 A I do not know.
12 Q What did Mr. Anderson then say to
13 you?
14 A He told me that they had called.
15 Q Is that all he said to you?
16 A He told me that they had called.
17 Q And what happened after that?
18 A At that time I was working at the
19 Olympics and I put it on hold.
20 Q What do you mean by you put it on
21 hold?
22 A I was working about 18 to 20 hours
180
1 a day, and a bomb had just gone off in the
2 location where I was working, so that was not
3 foremost in my mind.
4 Q When you say put it on hold, you
5 just didn't call them back; is that what you
6 mean?
7 A I didn't have the time. No. I had
8 no access to long distance.
9 Q Did there come a point in time when
10 you did speak with somebody from the
11 Independent Counsel's office?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you call them or did they call
14 you?
15 A I had hired an attorney at that
16 time, yes, and he talked to them.
17 Q Did he call or did they call him?
18 A To tell you honestly, I do not
19 know.
20 Q What's the name of your lawyer?
21 A Mark Srere.
22 Q Is he located in Atlanta?
181
1 A No, he is up here.
2 Q Do you know what law firm he's
3 with?
4 A Morgan Bockius & Lewis.
5 Q Is he still your attorney?
6 A No.
7 Q You testified that he contacted the
8 Independent Counsel, correct?
9 A No, I said I did not know.
10 Q Did there come a point in time when
11 you spoke with somebody from the Independent
12 Counsel's office?
13 A I believe I've already stated yes.
14 Q And when was that?
15 A I believe I've already stated that
16 was in August.
17 Q August of what year?
18 A '96.
19 Q Did Mr. Srere charge for his legal
20 fees?
21 A I believe he did.
22 Q Who paid them?
182
1 A I believe that's between me and my
2 attorney.
3 Q You did not pay them yourself?
4 A I believe that's between me and my
5 attorney.
6 Q Did your parents pay for those
7 legal fees?
8 A I believe that's between me and my
9 parents.
10 Q Who paid for those legal fees?
11 MR. GILLIGAN: Asked and answered.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did somebody from the Clinton
14 Administration pay for those legal fees?
15 A No.
16 Q Did a donor to the Democratic party
17 pay those fees?
18 A No.
19 Q Why is it you'll answer that
20 question definitively but you won't answer my
21 other questions?
22 A Because I believe that's between me
183
1 and my attorney.
2 Q You still owe your attorney legal
3 fees?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, who did you meet with, if
6 anyone, from the Independent Counsel's
7 office?
8 A I believe I've stated I don't
9 remember their names.
10 Q That was when they first called.
11 Perhaps now that there's a subsequent contact
12 you remember?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q Did there come a point in time when
15 you did meet with someone from the
16 Independent Counsel's office?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did you meet with them here in
19 Washington?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Was there one or more persons
22 present during the meeting?
184
1 A There were more than one.
2 Q Where did the meeting take place?
3 A At their offices.
4 Q And where are those offices?
5 A Somewhere near the FBI building.
6 Exact location I do not remember.
7 Q Do you remember whether there was a
8 man or a woman or what was the mix of people
9 present other than your lawyer?
10 A I believe they were all men.
11 Q Was your lawyer present?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And how long was the meeting?
14 A I believe it was all day. I don't
15 remember specific times, but I believe it was
16 all day.
17 Q It was an entire day?
18 A I believe.
19 Q Did it go on for more than one day?
20 A No.
21 Q Do you remember it was about eight
22 hours?
185
1 A I do not remember the exact times,
2 but I do remember it took up most of the day.
3 Q Did they ask you questions during
4 that meeting?
5 A Yes.
6 Q What did they ask you?
7 A They asked me the questions in
8 relations to Filegate.
9 Q Specifically?
10 A The same things that have been
11 asked here.
12 Q Did they ask you whether you had
13 ever worked with Craig Livingstone before?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did they ask you where you met him?
16 A Yes.
17 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, it's a
18 very sensitive subject matter when you're
19 asking about the witness about matters in
20 connection with a grand jury investigation.
21 Can we take a break here for five minutes?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure.
186
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
2 video record at 1:47.
3 (Recess)
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on
5 video record at 1:51.
6 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, what we
7 would like to do and we want to do this right
8 now is the following: If you want to ask the
9 witness specifically about what the
10 Independent Counsel asked her in connection
11 with the grand jury investigation and
12 specifically what she told the Independent
13 Counsel, what we would like to do is just
14 call the office of the Independent Counsel
15 right now and try to ascertain whether they
16 have any objection to this line of
17 questioning taking place on the record of a
18 public civil proceeding while their grand
19 jury investigation is still pending.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan, are you
21 representing the witness, Ms. Anderson, here
22 today?
187
1 MR. GILLIGAN: In her official
2 capacity, yes.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Is anyone else
4 representing her?
5 MR. GILLIGAN: No.
6 THE WITNESS: No, I have no money
7 to pay for it.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: There has been a
9 ruling by the court with regard to the Secret
10 Service which is an order that came out
11 recently that deals with records that were
12 produced to the Independent Counsel's office.
13 That order appears to be dispositive of this
14 issue and I'm not asking at this point in
15 time -- I may later -- as to what she may
16 have testified to before the grand jury. I'm
17 just simply asking what questions were asked
18 by the Independent Counsel and how she
19 responded.
20 MR. GILLIGAN: This is what the
21 judge said in the Secret Service ruling which
22 was, if the Independent Counsel wanted to
188
1 come forth and object to the production of
2 some of the materials you have requested from
3 the government and from the Secret Service
4 particularly that might reveal the direction
5 of the grand jury investigation, that he
6 would give the Independent Counsel's that
7 opportunity and what I'm suggesting is that
8 we do exactly that, give the Independent
9 Counsel's office the opportunity to object to
10 this revelation of matters before the grand
11 jury before the horse is out the barn door.
12 I think that's exactly the
13 procedure that's contemplated in the judge's
14 Secret Service order.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I do not believe that
16 that is contemplated but I'm willing to allow
17 you to do that.
18 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you, sir. If
19 you'll just give me a moment --
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I would, however, ask
21 you, Mr. Gilligan, or anybody else what it is
22 that's in your interest of representing the
189
1 office of Independent Counsel. It's my
2 understanding that the Justice Department in
3 a number of areas has been adverse to the
4 Independent Counsel and is in fact
5 investigating the Independent Counsel.
6 MR. GILLIGAN: I don't know what
7 your definition of "adversity" is,
8 Mr. Klayman, but we have a great deal of
9 respect for the grand jury process and we're
10 trying to protect that.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: That's noble. Thank
12 you.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
14 video record at 1:54.
15 (Recess)
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on
17 video record at 1:58.
18 MR. GILLIGAN: Why don't we do this
19 on the record?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. I would
21 object to it going towards our time, assuming
22 there is time here in the cross-examination
190
1 capacity, but you're free to do that on the
2 record.
3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Good
4 afternoon, office of the Independent Counsel.
5 MR. GILLIGAN: ���� Joseph, please.
6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: One moment.
7 MR. JOSEPH: You have reached the
8 voice mail of ���� Joseph. I am either away
9 from my desk right now or on the phone, so at
10 the sound of the tone please leave a message,
11 and I will get back to you as soon as I can.
12 Thank you very much.
13 MR. GILLIGAN: Good afternoon,
14 Mr. Joseph. This is Mr. Gilligan over at the
15 Department of Justice. I'm calling about an
16 issue that has arisen in the midst of an
17 ongoing deposition in the civil action
18 concerning the FBI files matter. I would
19 appreciate it if you could give me a call
20 back as soon as you are able at 616-8329.
21 As I say, it concerns something
22 that's arisen during the middle of a
191
1 deposition, and the sooner we can speak to
2 you about it, the better. Thank you, sir.
3 I'm going to call back the main
4 number and see if I can have him paged.
5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Good
6 afternoon. Office of the Independent
7 Counsel.
8 MR. GILLIGAN: Good afternoon. I
9 just tried to reach Mr. Joseph and got his
10 voice mail. Is it possible to have him paged
11 or otherwise to locate him?
12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: May I ask
13 who's calling?
14 MR. GILLIGAN: My name is Jim
15 Gilligan I'm calling from the Department of
16 Justice. It's a rather urgent matter.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan, could
18 you put on the record what number you dialed?
19 MR. GILLIGAN: The number is
20 514-8688.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Just let the record
22 reflect that in terms of the testimony that's
192
1 already occurred so far, we're going to
2 reserve judgment after we have an opportunity
3 to reflect further, but there was testimony
4 on exactly what had occurred, Mr. Gilligan,
5 and we would maintain, to the extent that you
6 have standing to make an objection here on
7 behalf of your client, that it's been waived.
8 I also want to put on the record an
9 objection to any participation with regard to
10 Mr. Cohen concerning the testimony provided
11 here today. He was not here when the
12 deposition began this morning. We did make
13 such an objection with regard to Ms. Paxton.
14 MR. COHEN: Is that your Rule 615
15 objection?
16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm sorry.
17 He is not within the message suite. I'm
18 going to have to take a message at this point
19 and see if I can't get him to call you.
20 MR. GILLIGAN: It concerns
21 something that's come up in the middle of a
22 deposition in the civil case concerning the
193
1 FBI files matter, and if he could call me at
2 his earliest opportunity that would be
3 terrific. The number is 616-8329.
4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 8329. And
5 your name again is?
6 MR. GILLIGAN: Jim Gilligan,
7 G-i-l-l-i-g-a-n.
8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay.
9 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you very much.
10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Bye.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: In answer to
12 Mr. Cohen's question, it does deal with
13 issues that have been briefed before the
14 court. I'll hold these questions in abeyance
15 and see if we get a return call. We'll move
16 on to another area so we can push this thing
17 along.
18 MR. GILLIGAN: We appreciate that,
19 Mr. Klayman. Let us forge ahead.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q We previously identified a
22 transcript of proceedings. This was your
194
1 deposition before the Senate. Are you aware
2 of that exhibit this morning, Ms. Anderson?
3 A Again, yes.
4 Q What was the number of that?
5 MR. GILLIGAN: It was actually not
6 marked because of its volume.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd ask that it be
8 marked as Exhibit 5.
9 (Anderson Deposition Exhibit
10 No. 5 was marked for
11 identification.)
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q This is a copy of the transcript of
14 the deposition which you provided to the U.S.
15 Senate in the Filegate matter?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And attached to this deposition
18 transcript are Exhibits 1 through 5, are
19 there not?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Is there anything in this
22 transcript, Ms. Anderson, which you consider
195
1 to be inaccurate in terms of your testimony?
2 A At the time, no.
3 Q At the time that you gave the
4 testimony, did you intend to tell the truth,
5 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
6 so help you God?
7 A Just as I am now.
8 Q You wouldn't have lied to the
9 Senate, would you?
10 A No, I would not have.
11 Q And in fact at the time you gave
12 this testimony that was several years earlier
13 than today, was it not?
14 A After a bomb had just blown up,
15 yes.
16 Q The answer's yes?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What date did you give the
19 testimony?
20 A I believe it was -- oh, this one
21 was in October.
22 Q Of 1996?
196
1 A Of 1996.
2 Q And that wasn't too long after the
3 Filegate scandal actually had broken, was it,
4 in June of '96?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I get the answer
6 to this question.
7 MR. GILLIGAN: Jim Gilligan.
8 MR. JOSEPH: Jim, it's ���� Joseph.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you please put
10 him on hold?
11 MR. GILLIGAN: Can you hold on for
12 one second? We have to get an answer to one
13 question.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe two or three.
15 MR. GILLIGAN: I understand and
16 appreciate your patience. Hold on just a
17 second.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q The Filegate scandal broke on or
20 about June of 1996, correct?
21 A I would not be aware of when it
22 broke.
197
1 Q It became available for public
2 recognition in around that time; do you
3 recollect that?
4 A I would not be aware of when it
5 broke.
6 Q In any event, it stands to reason,
7 does it not, that your memory is better back
8 in October of 1996 than it is today?
9 A No.
10 Q Is it generally --
11 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman --
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q I'm not finished. Is it generally
14 your experience that your memory gets better
15 the more time passes?
16 A No, but it generally gets better
17 the more it's spoken about after not speaking
18 about it for a few years.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll hold right
20 here.
21 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you,
22 Mr. Klayman. Mr. Joseph, are you there?
198
1 MR. JOSEPH: Yeah, I'm still here.
2 MR. GILLIGAN: We're in a
3 deposition concerning the Alexander case, the
4 civil action involving the FBI files matter.
5 We're deposing Ms. Mari Anderson, whose name
6 might be familiar to you. The government has
7 completed its questioning and counsel for the
8 Plaintiffs is now questioning Ms. Anderson.
9 One subject matter that Plaintiffs' counsel
10 wishes to inquire about concerns us.
11 He has asked the witness
12 specifically to recount the questions that
13 were asked of her and the answers she gave
14 during her interview by the Independent
15 Counsel's office in I believe it was August
16 of 1996, and we are calling to inquire
17 whether your office has any objection to this
18 particular inquiry, that is to say, what your
19 office asked her, what she said to your
20 office.
21 MR. JOSEPH: I'm going to have to
22 confer and get back to you.
199
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Joseph, my name's
2 Larry Klayman. I'm with Judicial Watch. How
3 are you?
4 MR. JOSEPH: I'm fine. How are you
5 doing?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Good. We will hold
7 those questions in abeyance until we hear
8 back from you. If it's possible to get back
9 to us as soon as possible this afternoon,
10 we'd really appreciate it.
11 MR. JOSEPH: I'll do the best I
12 can.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Joseph, also ask
14 perhaps if questioning is something that you
15 may object to, what questions were asked, if
16 we may at least ask her what it is she said
17 during that meeting.
18 MR. JOSEPH: You are looking to
19 inquire into the subject matter of OIC
20 interviews, including questions put to her
21 and answers given?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Not so much the
200
1 subject matter of your interviews but what
2 she said to you at that time. In other
3 words, it could be posed without asking for
4 your questions but simply finding out what
5 she said to you which would be similar to
6 what she said to anybody at any point in
7 time.
8 MR. JOSEPH: All right, I'll get
9 back to you as soon as I can.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: We're not asking
11 questions as to what she may have said,
12 assuming she ever appeared before a grand
13 jury.
14 MR. JOSEPH: Okay, good-bye.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q I believe you just testified,
17 Ms. Anderson, that your memory gets better
18 the more you talk about it. In the last six
19 months, have you talked about your
20 involvement in this matter?
21 A With whom?
22 Q With anyone?
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