51 1 from one question to another. Your counsel 2 can instruct you on that. 3 Have you ever been deposed before? 4 A Yes. 5 Q In what context? 6 A I was deposed by the Department of 7 Defense, Inspector General. 8 Q In what context? 9 A In what context? 10 Q What was it about? 11 A It was about the release of Linda 12 Tripp's personnel file. 13 Q When did that deposition take 14 place? 15 A I don't recall the date. 16 Q Roughly speaking. 17 A Three weeks ago. 18 Q Who conducted the deposition? 19 A I don't recall their names. 20 Q Did they give you a business card 21 at the time? 22 A They did, but I did not bring it 52 1 with me. 2 Q Do you remember what office inside 3 that Inspector General's Office they were 4 from? 5 A I do not. 6 Q Have you been deposed other than in 7 that circumstance? 8 A I have not. 9 Q Have you ever been made a defendant 10 to a lawsuit? 11 A Not that I'm aware of. 12 Q You're not sure if you've been 13 sued? 14 A Well, I've never been sued. 15 Q Have you ever been party to a 16 lawsuit by virtue of being a witness before? 17 A I have not. 18 Q So you've never given testimony 19 other than this one instance where you were 20 deposed by the Inspector General concerning 21 Linda Tripp in any legal proceeding? 22 A That is correct. 53 1 Q This is your second occurrence? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you meet with any of your 4 counsel before this deposition? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q How long did you meet with the 7 government counsel? 8 A Five minutes. 9 Q How long did you meet with your own 10 counsel? 11 A Two hours. 12 Q When did that meeting take place? 13 A This morning. 14 Q Was it your decision to retain your 15 own private counsel? 16 A Yes, it was. 17 Q Before your deposition here today, 18 did you have a chance to read Clifford 19 Bernath's deposition? 20 A I did not. 21 Q You have not read that deposition? 22 A I have not. 54 1 Q Has anyone relayed to you the 2 context of what Mr. Bernath testified to? 3 A Not with any specificity. 4 Q But generally? 5 A My attorney has filled me in on one 6 or two aspects of it. 7 Q I'm not asking you specifically 8 what your attorney told you but just to 9 identify the aspects, the general subject 10 matter. 11 MR. MURPHY: I object, but I will 12 allow Mr. Bacon to describe some of the 13 general subject matters. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I appreciate that. I 15 hope that government counsel can take a 16 lesson from you, Mr. Murphy. 17 MR. MURPHY: I'm not intending to 18 give any lessons. I'm just allowing 19 Mr. Bacon to answer some general questions. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll pay for it. How 21 is that? 22 THE WITNESS: He described the 55 1 length and tone of the proceeding. He talked 2 about some of the differences between press 3 accounts of the deposition and what actually 4 was said during the deposition. I would say 5 those are the main aspects we covered. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did he cover the aspect of whether 8 or not you had instructed Mr. Bernath to 9 release Linda Tripp's information? 10 A He told me how Mr. Bernath had 11 answered those questions. 12 Q Did you cover the aspect of whether 13 or not Mr. Bernath knew of any contact 14 between the Pentagon and the White House? 15 A We did not cover that. 16 Q Now, during the conversation with 17 Secretary Perry, I take it that he did tell 18 you that he needed somebody he could trust? 19 A I don't believe he used that term. 20 Q What term did he use? 21 A I don't believe he used any term 22 like that. 56 1 Q Did he say anything that caused you 2 to believe that he needed a trustworthy 3 person for this job? 4 A I think there was an assumption on 5 both our parts that if he were to hire me for 6 the job, it would be because we felt we saw 7 eye to eye on the issues and how to deal with 8 press issues. 9 Q Was your understanding, being an 10 experienced journalist, that the role of 11 Press Secretary was one that must have a very 12 close relationship with his or her boss? 13 A Yes. 14 Q That, in fact, you are the 15 spokesperson for your boss? 16 A Yes. 17 Q That in this instance it would be 18 the Secretary of Defense? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So, therefore, the degree of 21 loyalty would have to be very high? 22 A Yes. 57 1 Q The degree of trust would have to 2 be very high? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You never want to do anything to 5 embarrass your boss? 6 A Right. 7 Q That doing something to embarrass 8 your boss could cause you your job? 9 A That is true. 10 Q That you are, in effect, in that 11 role an alter ego in terms of speaking for 12 your boss? 13 A Sometimes. 14 Q You understood that the Secretary 15 of Defense served at the pleasure of the 16 President of the United States? 17 A Yes. 18 Q That if he violated the trust of 19 the President of the United States that he 20 could be dismissed? 21 A That did not come up specifically. 22 Q But you understood that? 58 1 A Yes. 2 Q You understood that if he was not 3 loyal to the President of the United States 4 that your boss could be dismissed? 5 A I did not think of it in those 6 terms. 7 Q But you understood, obviously, that 8 that was the dynamics of the relationship? 9 A I understood that there had to be a 10 relationship of trust between the Secretary 11 of Defense and the President. 12 Q You are aware that the previous 13 Secretary of Defense before Secretary Perry 14 had been fired by the White House? 15 A I knew what happened to the 16 previous Secretary of Defense. 17 Q Which is that he was terminated, 18 correct? 19 A Yes, that's true. 20 Q Based on statements and conduct 21 that he had made? 22 A You can read the history. 59 1 Q Well, that was your understanding, 2 was it not? 3 A 0h, my understanding was that there 4 was a parting of the ways. 5 Q What is your understanding in terms 6 of why there was a parting of the ways? 7 A My understanding was that the 8 president wanted a different Secretary of 9 Defense. 10 Q Because he lost confidence in the 11 earlier secretary, correct? 12 MR. MURPHY: I object. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know why. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Was that ever discussed with 16 Secretary Perry? 17 A It was not. 18 Q Has that ever been discussed with 19 you and anyone else in the Clinton 20 Administration? 21 A No. 22 Q The Pentagon does deal with chains 60 1 of command, does it not, employment 2 relationships? 3 MR. MURPHY: Is your question does 4 the Pentagon deal with chains of command? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q That is a military phrase, is it 7 not, chain of command? 8 A Chain of command is a military 9 phrase. 10 Q The chain of command is that you 11 reported to the Secretary of Defense? 12 A That is true. 13 Q The Secretary of Defense then 14 reports to the President of the United 15 States? 16 A On occasion, yes. 17 Q That he is the commander in chief? 18 A The President is the commander in 19 chief. 20 Q So he is your ultimate superior, 21 correct? 22 A He is. 61 1 Q You, meaning Ken Bacon. 2 A Well, he is the commander in chief. 3 Q Which means that he is the 4 commander in chief of the military; correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q You understood that since you 7 interviewed with the Pentagon? 8 A I'm not in the military, sir. 9 Q But you're working for the 10 Department of Defense, which is the military, 11 correct? 12 MR. MURPHY: Objection. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q That is your understanding, is it 15 not? 16 A I work for the Department of 17 Defense, yes. 18 Q That is a government agency, an 19 executive agency which concerns the military, 20 correct? 21 A The military is part of it. 22 Q Correct? 62 1 A Correct. 2 Q So what I'm saying to you is that 3 the president as commander and chief is your 4 ultimate superior, you, Ken Bacon, correct? 5 That's your understanding? 6 MR. MURPHY: I object, but I think 7 you you're just wrong, Mr. Klayman. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I prefer that you not 9 interrupt the testimony. I'm willing to give 10 you credit when credit is due, but this time 11 you've gone too far, Mr. Murphy. 12 MR. MURPHY: Well, you having said 13 that, I obviously have to defer. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 15 THE WITNESS: My understanding is 16 that I works for the Secretary of Defense. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: But your 18 understanding is also that your commander in 19 chief, the president, is your ultimate 20 superior? 21 MR. MURPHY: I object, Mr. Klayman. 22 He's not in the military. 63 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 2 THE WITNESS: My understanding is 3 that I work for the Secretary of Defense. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to you 5 saying he's not in the military. 6 MR. MURPHY: Why? He just said it. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: We can have a little 8 bit of levity here. I have no problems with 9 that, but please don't give him testimony. 10 MR. MURPHY: As I understand it, 11 Mr. Klayman, under the constitution the 12 president as commander and chief is in charge 13 of the military, but the Defense Department 14 is not all within the military. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: You're now providing 16 testimony. This is sanctionable. Certify 17 it. If it goes on one more time, we will be 18 filing a motion. 19 I'm asking you and I'm telling you 20 this is our position. One more of these 21 objections and we will file a motion for 22 sanctions. 64 1 MR. MURPHY: That's fine. You can 2 do whatever you like. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your 4 understanding that your ultimate supervisor 5 is the President of the United States? 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: That's how you 8 influence testimony. Certify it. 9 MR. MURPHY: That's a ridiculous 10 statement. Certify that, too. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Is it your understanding that if 13 the President of the United States tells the 14 Secretary of Defense to fire you, that that 15 will happen? 16 A I've never thought about that. 17 Q Well, think about it now, please, 18 based on your experience. 19 A I suppose that's true. 20 Q What else was discussed during your 21 meeting with Secretary Perry at the time? 22 A I think I've given you as complete 65 1 an account as I can. 2 Q Did you have any other meetings 3 with Secretary Perry, discussions or 4 whatever, leading up to your employment as 5 Assistant Secretary of Defense? 6 A No. 7 Q Were there any written 8 communications exchanged? 9 A No. 10 Q Did you obtain any recommendations 11 for the job, written or oral? 12 A No. 13 Q During the time that you were 14 interviewing for the job, did you have any 15 contact with anyone else inside or related to 16 the Clinton Administration? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Who? 19 A Shortly -- well, the first person 20 to contact me was Margaret Sullivan who 21 worked at the Defense Department as White 22 House liaison. 66 1 Q Who is Margaret Sullivan? 2 A She was the White House liaison 3 person at the Department of Defense at that 4 time. 5 Q I mean what were her duties and 6 responsibilities as White House liaison? 7 A Her duties were to maintain contact 8 between the department and the White House on 9 a variety of issues. 10 Q Did she say why she was contacting 11 you? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What did she tell you? 14 A She told me that she was going to 15 take me to the White House to have me meet 16 some people over there essentially to be 17 vetted. 18 Q She told you why that was 19 important, why that was necessary? 20 A No, she did not. 21 Q Did you ask? 22 A No. 67 1 Q Did you find that peculiar? 2 A No. 3 Q You didn't find it peculiar because 4 your job was going to be to work closely with 5 the White House, correct? 6 A I found it -- 7 Q That's my question. 8 A Could you repeat the question? 9 Q You didn't find it peculiar because 10 your duties and responsibilities as the Press 11 Secretary of the Department of Defense was 12 going to be to work closely with the White 13 House? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q Did she take you over to the White 16 House to meet people? 17 A She did. 18 Q When did that occur? 19 A It occurred, I believe, in late 20 July or early August. 21 Q Who did you meet with? Did the 22 meeting take place? 68 1 A Yes, the meeting took place. 2 Q Who did you meet with? 3 A I met with Mack McLarty. 4 Q Anyone else? 5 A Dee Dee Meyers, sir and George 6 Stephanopoulos. 7 Q Where did you meet? 8 A I met in the White House in their 9 offices. 10 Q Was it all of their offices or one 11 of their office? 12 A No. Each one of their offices 13 separately. 14 Q Did you meet them all at the same 15 time or separately? 16 A I believe I met them all on the 17 same day but I met them separately. 18 Q Which one did you meet first? 19 A Mack McLarty. 20 Q In his office? 21 A In his office. 22 Q What office is that? You remember 69 1 the room number? 2 A I do not. 3 Q Did Mr. McLarty tell you why he 4 wanted to see you? 5 A He did not. 6 Q What did he tell you during the 7 meeting? 8 A He asked me one question. He asked 9 me what were the most revolutionary media 10 events that had taken place in recent years. 11 Q Did you find that strange? 12 A I thought it was an interesting 13 question. 14 Q What did you say? 15 A I said the creation of CNN. 16 Q Did you say anything else? 17 A No. 18 Q What did he say? 19 A He listened. 20 Q He said, "Yes, we like CNN"? 21 A He did not. 22 Q Did he say anything else? 70 1 A Not that I can recall. 2 Q So that was it? 3 A That's basically it. 4 Q How long did the meeting last? 5 A It was short. 15 minutes, maybe. 6 Q That response only took about 10 7 seconds. What else went on for the next 14 8 minutes and 50 seconds? 9 A I recall basically a discussion 10 about CNN. 11 Q I take it that he said, "We need 12 somebody at the Pentagon we can trust"? 13 A He did not say that. 14 Q I take it you got that impression? 15 A I did not get that impression. 16 Q Did he tell you that the Clinton 17 Administration was being criticized from a 18 number of different sources? 19 A He did not. 20 Q Inside and out of the media? 21 A He did not tell me that. 22 Q But you knew that at the time, 71 1 correct? 2 A Well, I could read the press. 3 Q Is the answer yes? 4 A Did I know that the administration 5 was being criticized? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Yes. 8 Q When did that meeting take place, 9 what year? 10 A 1994. 11 Q You knew at that time there was a 12 scandal on the way called Whitewater? 13 MS. WEISMANN: We're going to take 14 a break. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: We're going to take 16 a 2-minute break, please. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: You all have to go to 18 the restroom? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: I need to consult. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me? You want 21 to consult with the witness? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to consult 72 1 with counsel for the witness, yes. 2 (Recess) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Bacon, what else did you 5 discuss with Mr. McLarty? 6 A That's all I recall. 7 Q That was 10 seconds out of 15 8 minutes? 9 A You've made that observation 10 before. 11 Q That's all you recall now? 12 A Well, I think I explained why I 13 felt that CNN had been a revolutionary -- the 14 creation of CNN had been a revolutionary 15 media event, but that's basically what we 16 discussed. 17 Q During this break did you discuss 18 this line of testimony with counsel? 19 A I did not. 20 Q Who did you have a meeting with? 21 Stephanopoulos? 22 A I believe my second meeting was 73 1 with George Stephanopoulos. 2 Q Was that in his office? 3 A Yes, it was. 4 Q How long did that meeting take? 5 A It was also quite brief. 6 Q What did you discuss with 7 Mr. Stephanopoulos? 8 A As I recall, he asked me one 9 question. He said that, "Do you have any 10 fears about shifting from the press to being 11 a spokesman for the government and do you 12 think you would be able to do it? Have you 13 thought about the difficulties that this 14 might involve?" 15 Q What did you say? 16 A I said I had thought about it. We 17 talked about it for a while. 18 Q What did you tell him? 19 A I told him that I thought that 20 Secretary Perry wanted me to speak accurately 21 about what was happening, that we both shared 22 the same view, that the best way to deal with 74 1 problems was to acknowledge them and to move 2 from problem to solution, and that I felt 3 that the energies required, the skills 4 required to be a good reporter and a good 5 press spokesman were basically the same and 6 they were to get accurate information as 7 quickly as possible, to organize it and to 8 release it. 9 Q When you were there, was 10 Ms. Sullivan with you when you had these 11 meetings? 12 A She was in the McLarty meeting. I 13 believe she was in the Stephanopoulos 14 meeting, as well. 15 Q So she would remember what was 16 said, as well? 17 MR. MURPHY: Objection. You can 18 answer. 19 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Was she taking notes while you were 22 there? 75 1 A I don't believe so. 2 Q Did you take any notes? 3 A I did not. 4 Q Was Mr. McLarty taking notes? 5 A I don't believe so. 6 Q Was Mr. Stephanopoulos taking 7 notes? 8 A Not that I recall. 9 Q What was Mr. McLarty's position at 10 the time? He was Chief of Staff, wasn't he? 11 A Well, I can't recall exactly when 12 he left as Chief of Staff. I believe he was 13 Chief of Staff. 14 Q You understood that as Chief of 15 Staff he was the second in command under the 16 president in terms of running the White 17 House; correct? 18 A Well, I understood that he wasn't 19 the vice president, but I understood that he 20 had an important administrative 21 responsibility in the White House. 22 Q In fact, you understood in terms of 76 1 operational responsibility, he was more 2 important than the vice president? 3 A I didn't think about that. 4 Q That is your general understanding 5 after all these years in Washington that the 6 Chief of Staff is, in fact, more powerful 7 than the vice president; isn't that your 8 understanding? 9 A No. 10 Q But he is the president's 11 representative. You understood that, 12 correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q What was George Stephanopoulos at 15 the time? 16 A Well, I don't remember what his 17 exact title was. He was I think a counselor 18 or a presidential assistant. I don't 19 remember his exact title. 20 Q Did either Mr. McLarty or 21 Mr. Stephanopoulos have any staff members in 22 the meeting while you were there? 77 1 A No. 2 Q What else was discussed with 3 Mr. Stephanopoulos? 4 A I think I have recounted the 5 discussion as best I can remember. 6 Q What was your understanding as to 7 why you were introduced to 8 Mr. Stephanopoulos? 9 A Well, Mr. Stephanopoulos had been a 10 Press Secretary and was a communications 11 advisor to the president, and it made sense 12 to me that he would want to talk to me in 13 that capacity. 14 Q Because you would, if selected for 15 this job, then have to liaise with him, among 16 others? 17 MR. MURPHY: Is liaise a verb? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: It's French. 19 THE WITNESS: Indeed, I never did 20 talk with George Stephanopoulos after I took 21 the job. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 78 1 Q But you understood you would have 2 to liaise with someone such as 3 Mr. Stephanopoulos in the White House? 4 A Well, at that particular time, sir, 5 I did not know with whom I would be 6 discussing things other than with the White 7 House Press Secretary. 8 Q But you understood that 9 Mr. Stephanopoulos was in the Communications 10 Department when you met with him? 11 A Yes. 12 Q That department worked under the 13 Press Secretary of the White House? 14 A I believe it was the other way 15 around, that the Press Secretary worked under 16 George Stephanopoulos. 17 Q Who at that time was Dee Dee 18 Meyers? 19 A She was the Press Secretary. 20 Q Right. Was there anything else 21 that you can remember that you discussed with 22 Mr. Stephanopoulos? 79 1 A No. That's all I recall. 2 Q You then met with Dee Dee Meyers? 3 A I did. 4 Q Where did you meet with her? 5 A In her office. 6 Q Who was present during that 7 meeting? Ms. Sullivan again? 8 A Margaret Sullivan. 9 Q Did she have anyone else present, 10 Ms. Meyers? 11 A No. 12 Q What was discussed there? I take 13 it there was a third question? 14 A No. Basically, she gave me advice. 15 I don't think she asked me any questions. 16 Q What advice did she give you? 17 A She said don't take it personally 18 and keep a sense of humor. 19 Q What did she mean by, "don't take 20 it personally"? 21 A I think she meant that jobs like 22 this can be unpleasant at times. 80 1 Q Did she say why? 2 A She did not. 3 Q Did she tell you that to perform in 4 this job you have to do what you're told? 5 A She did not. 6 Q But you understood that she was 7 telling you about being loyal to the 8 administration? She was trying to get that 9 point across? 10 A No, I didn't understand that. 11 Q Did she elaborate on what she meant 12 by sense of humor, keeping your sense of 13 humor? 14 A We talked a little bit about some 15 of the challenges. She talked about the 16 challenges she was facing. She talked about 17 the daily conference calls that went on 18 between the White House -- well, among the 19 White House, the Defense Department, the 20 State Department, the CIA, the United States, 21 United Nations, press operation, and talked 22 some about the format of doing the job and 81 1 the day-to-day pressures, the day-to-day 2 schedules and basically gave me a description 3 of what the job was like from her standpoint. 4 Q She talked to you what it was going 5 to be like communicating with her, correct? 6 A To some extent. 7 Q What did she tell you about how 8 that would work? 9 A I don't have a very specific 10 recollection of that. It was mainly a 11 description on her part about the daily 12 conference call and the type of information 13 she wanted from those calls. We talked some 14 about recent briefings she had done. I had 15 been reading the transcripts, and how she 16 handled certain issues, but I can't remember 17 which ones with any specificity. 18 Q When you talk about daily 19 conference call, you mean daily conference 20 call with her or with others, as well? 21 A I was talking about this conference 22 call I described earlier. 82 1 Q I'm sorry. I didn't understand. 2 Which one did you describe earlier? 3 A The conference call I described 4 earlier. 5 Q Which is? 6 MR. MURPHY: Repeat it for him. 7 THE WITNESS: I described the daily 8 conference call that involves the White House 9 Press Office, the State Department Press 10 Office, the Pentagon Press Office, the CIA 11 Press Office and the Press Office of the U.S. 12 Mission at the United Nations. There is also 13 usually a representative from the Joint 14 Chiefs of Staff on that call. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q This conference call takes place 17 every morning? 18 A No. It takes place everyday at 19 about between 12 and 12:30. 20 Q Who are present on these conference 21 calls? The press secretaries of the various 22 agencies? 83 1 A In principle, yes. 2 Q Are there anybody else who are 3 involved? Do aides listen in on these 4 conference calls? 5 A I think probably several aides do 6 in each office, yes. 7 Q These conference calls take place 8 by speakerphone? 9 A Not in my office, no. 10 Q How does it occur in your office? 11 A I have a phone and I listen on the 12 phone. 13 Q Do you have anyone else present 14 when you're taking part in these conference 15 calls? 16 A I do not. 17 Q Is anyone else in your office at 18 the time? 19 A No. 20 Q Are you saying that's never been 21 the case? You've never had somebody 22 listening to one of these conference calls on 84 1 a speakerphone with you? 2 A Now you've asked me a different 3 question. 4 Q I know. 5 A There are other people in my office 6 who listen to the call on their telephones. 7 Q Who else generally listens to the 8 calls? 9 A Captain Mike Doubleday is one of my 10 deputies. Cliff Bernath used to listen from 11 time to time. I believe Colonel Dick Bridges 12 sometimes listens, as well. I believe my 13 military assistant, Colonel Ed Veiga, 14 listens. 15 Q I take it there's somebody on your 16 staff who prepares a memorandum of what took 17 place during these calls? 18 A No. 19 Q Are any of these calls recorded? 20 A No. Not in my office. 21 Q Electronically? 22 A Not in my office. 85 1 Q But you don't know whether that's 2 true in the other departments? 3 A I would be stunned if they are. 4 Q I take it that you take notes 5 during these conversations? 6 A Occasionally. 7 Q I take it that Mike Doubleday, 8 Cliff Bernath, Dick Bridges and Ed Veiga take 9 notes sometimes? 10 A I do not know. 11 Q Do you know where those notes are 12 stored that you take? 13 A In a notebook. 14 Q Who stores them for you? Do you 15 have an administrative assistant? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you have a secretary? 18 A I do. 19 Q Who is your secretary? 20 A Melanie Shender. 21 Q How is that spelled? 22 A S-h-e-n-d-e-r. 86 1 Q Was she your secretary at the time 2 that Linda Tripp's personnel information was 3 released? 4 A Yes, she was. 5 Q How long has she been with you? 6 A She's been there since January 7 of 1998. 8 Q Who was your secretary before then? 9 A Monica Lewinsky. 10 Q I take it she left in January 1998, 11 Ms. Lewinsky? 12 A No. She left in December of 1997. 13 Q Was there anyone who filled that 14 role as secretary between Ms. Lewinsky and 15 Ms. Shender? 16 A I believe from time to time Mark 17 Huffman filled that desk. 18 Q How is that spelled? 19 A H-u-f-f-m-a-n. 20 Q What is Mr. Huffman's title? 21 A He's an administrative assistant in 22 my office. 87 1 Q Are there other administrative 2 assistants in your office? 3 A There is a chief petty officer, Tom 4 West. 5 Q What are his duties and 6 responsibilities? 7 A He answers the phones, he takes 8 phone messages, he does Xeroxing, he delivers 9 things, he does what administrative 10 assistants do. 11 Q I take it that all three of these 12 people help you run and manage your office 13 from an administrative standpoint? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Who is it specifically that does 16 your filing for you, if anyone in particular, 17 or do they all three do that? 18 A I think it would be primarily 19 Melanie. 20 Q She does keep a notebook of your 21 notes? 22 A She does not. 88 1 Q Does she store your notes? 2 A She does not. 3 Q How are your notes kept? 4 A In a drawer. 5 Q What drawer is that? 6 A I have several drawers in my desk 7 and I throw the notebooks in when I complete 8 them. 9 Q 0h, you keep notes in a notebook? 10 A I do. 11 Q Is it kind of like a school 12 notebook? Is that what it's like? 13 A It's smaller than this. 14 Q Can you hold that up so the camera 15 can see what it is you're referring to? 16 A Well, that's 8 X 10. I would say 17 my notebook is 4 X 6. 18 Q What are you pointing to, 19 Mr. Bacon, just so we can identify it. 20 A I'll describe my notebook. It's 4 21 X 6, approximately. 22 Q You keep notes in there? 89 1 A Yes, I do. That's what notebooks 2 are for. 3 Q Right. When you finish one, you 4 put the one you finished away and then you go 5 on and use a new one? 6 A Right. 7 Q Is there any other way that you 8 record your thoughts or communications? 9 A No. That's the primary way. 10 Q Do you use a computer at all? 11 A I do. 12 Q Do you type your own 13 correspondence? 14 A I usually dictate it. 15 Q To whom? 16 A Melanie Shender. 17 Q Before that, Monica Lewinsky? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Does Ms. Lewinsky ever take 20 dictation? 21 A She did, yes. 22 MS. WEISMANN: I'm not going to 90 1 allow anymore questions along that line. 2 It's outside the scope that he's been 3 authorized to testify. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait a second. 5 MS. WEISMANN: I am entitled to 6 make an objection, Mr. Klayman, and I am 7 entitled to make an objection uninterrupted. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You're entitled also 9 to be courteous and not rude and nasty. 10 MS. WEISMANN: As are you, 11 Mr. Klayman. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I would hope that you 13 would not be so here because I'm simply 14 looking into the issue of how documents are 15 stored and kept. I realize that the Clinton 16 Administration doesn't want me to ever ask a 17 question with the two words, "Monica 18 Lewinsky." That's been clear throughout 19 these depositions. We're also clear on the 20 reason for that, in all likelihood. But I'm 21 simply interested in how documents are kept 22 right now. 91 1 MS. WEISMANN: Mr. Klayman, let me 2 remind you that the scope of what Mr. Bacon 3 has been authorized to testify to concerns 4 the disclosure of information contained in 5 the Federal Security Clearance Form of Linda 6 Tripp. The testimony so far is that his 7 secretary during that period was not Monica 8 Lewinsky. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there may have 10 been things recorded leading up to this 11 event; so, therefore, I'm entitled. 12 MS. WEISMANN: If you want to focus 13 your questions in on what he's been 14 authorized to testify to, I would suggest you 15 do so. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I would suggest that 17 you not instruct me on what my job is. 18 Because, you see, if I was going to ever 19 follow your instructions, we'd never learn 20 anything for obvious reasons. 21 Certify this. 22 MR. MURPHY: Let me suggest, 92 1 Mr. Klayman, that you ask him a question and 2 move along. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, 4 Mr. Murphy. When you do dictation, how is 5 the dictation done? I would like this area 6 certified, too. Where is the dictation done? 7 THE WITNESS: In my office. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Is it done on a notepad? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you use a dictaphone at all? 12 A No, I don't. 13 Q When you type a document, how is it 14 typed? 15 A It's typed on my computer. 16 Q What kind of a computer have you 17 had? Tell me if it's changed. 18 A Well, I've had two types of 19 computers -- 3 types. When I got there, 20 there was an IBM compatible. I asked that to 21 be changed to a McIntosh. It was. Now I 22 have a Dell. 93 1 Q Do you know where the IBM 2 compatible is located at this point? 3 A Well, this was in 1994 when I made 4 the change, and I have no idea where it's 5 located. 6 Q Let's just go back in the last 7 year. What kind of computer do you have? 8 A In the last year I've had a Dell 9 and a McIntosh. 10 Q Are they both still in your office? 11 A No. 12 Q Which one left? 13 A The McIntosh left. 14 Q Where is that now? 15 A I have no idea. 16 Q I take it you did record the serial 17 number of that computer or somebody has it? 18 A I did not. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: What's funny about 20 that? Would you please not interrupt the 21 deposition by laughing. We're being kind of 22 lenient here with all these lawyers here. 94 1 It's my understanding that you're entitled to 2 one representative from the Department of 3 Defense. I didn't make an issue of that but 4 I ask you not to laugh. 5 MR. MURPHY: Is there a question 6 pending, Mr. Klayman? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I don't 9 recall the question. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record 11 reflect it's Brad Lehman man who laughed. 12 MR. MURPHY: I had a little trouble 13 suppressing a chuckle myself. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you know who would have the 16 serial number of that computer such that it 17 could be tracked down? 18 A I do not. 19 Q Have you used a laptop computer? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Is that provided to you by the 22 Pentagon or is that your own? 95 1 A I have one of my own and one of the 2 Pentagon's. 3 Q Do you use your own sometimes on 4 Pentagon business? 5 A Only at home. 6 Q Have you used laptop computers in 7 the last year? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Where is your Pentagon laptop 10 located? Where do you keep it? 11 A In the Pentagon. 12 Q You use that while you're 13 traveling? 14 A No. Actually, I have a docking 15 station and my permanent computer is a 16 laptop. 17 Q So the Dell is a laptop? 18 A It is. 19 Q The computer at home, it's a 20 different laptop? 21 A It's a different laptop. 22 Q What kind is that? 96 1 A Dell. 2 Q You like Dells? 3 A I do. 4 Q Have you erased any files on the 5 hard drive for any of the computers that you 6 used in the last year? 7 A Not that I'm aware of. I can't say 8 definitively that I haven't but I don't 9 believe I have. 10 Q Do you keep floppy disks? 11 A I do not. 12 Q You never put a document on a disk? 13 A Only if I'm transporting it from 14 one computer to another. 15 Q Is your Dell in the office that has 16 a docking station, I take it that goes into a 17 central server? 18 A I assume it does, yes. 19 Q Is your computer at home hooked up 20 to the Pentagon's central server? 21 A I can get into it if I have to. 22 Q With a pass code and a modem? 97 1 A Yes. 2 Q During these daily staff meetings, 3 these daily conferences -- 4 MR. MURPHY: Conference calls? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Conference calls, 6 yes. Has the name Linda Tripp ever come up? 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: During these daily 9 staff conferences, has the name Jane Mayer 10 ever come up? 11 MR. MURPHY: You mean the 12 conference calls, Mr.Klayman? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Conference calls. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just call them 16 conferences so we can make it simple. 17 During these daily conferences, has 18 the Lewinsky scandal ever been discussed? 19 MS. WEISMANN: I object to the 20 question because it calls for information 21 beyond the scope which he is authorized to 22 testify to, and I direct him not to answer. 98 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. Let me 2 give you a little proffer, for the record. 3 Obviously I'm entitled to ask a broader 4 question here to see whether or not that jogs 5 his memory or leads me to evidence which may 6 be relevant, and the whole Tripp incident is 7 part of the Monica Lewinsky scandal, so I 8 have to be able to ask those kinds of 9 questions. 10 To the extent that you continue to 11 obstruct this deposition by ordering him not 12 to answer, it's quite clear that the Clinton 13 Justice Department is part of improper 14 conduct and I ask that you not do it anymore. 15 Certify. 16 MR. MURPHY: Is there a question 17 pending? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask my questions 19 in due time, Mr. Murphy. 20 MR. MURPHY: I'm just trying to get 21 things moving along, Mr. Klayman. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: They've been moving 99 1 pretty good. 2 MR. MURPHY: By your standards. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't need 4 wisecracks. Mr. Bacon, did you meet with 5 anybody else in the White House in the course 6 of interviews for your position? 7 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Let's go back to these daily 10 conference calls. Has the name Jane Mayer of 11 The New Yorker ever come up? 12 A No. 13 Q Did there come a point in time when 14 you were offered a job at the Pentagon? 15 A Yes. 16 Q When was that? 17 A Well, essentially, I believe it was 18 in early July when I was called by Deputy 19 Secretary Deutch and he told me that I was 20 Secretary Perry's choice for the job. 21 Q What happened after that? 22 A After that a week or so elapsed, 100 1 and then Margaret Sullivan called me. 2 Q What did she say? 3 A She said that she needed to 4 introduce me to some people at the White 5 House. 6 Q Did that ultimately happen? 7 A Yes, it did. 8 Q Did she say why she wanted to 9 introduce you to people at the White House? 10 A She did not. 11 Q When were you introduced, I take 12 it, to people at the White House? 13 MR. MURPHY: I think this is what 14 he just explained for the last half hour. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, maybe I got it 16 in reverse. 17 MR. MURPHY: I'm having a deja vu 18 experience. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm prepared to go 20 through it again. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought that 22 occurred before he was offered the job.
of this Deposition