1   from one question to another.  Your counsel

         2   can instruct you on that.

         3             Have you ever been deposed before?

         4        A    Yes.

         5        Q    In what context?

         6        A    I was deposed by the Department of

         7   Defense, Inspector General.

         8        Q    In what context?

         9        A    In what context?

        10        Q    What was it about?

        11        A    It was about the release of Linda

        12   Tripp's personnel file.

        13        Q    When did that deposition take

        14   place?

        15        A    I don't recall the date.

        16        Q    Roughly speaking.

        17        A    Three weeks ago.

        18        Q    Who conducted the deposition?

        19        A    I don't recall their names.

        20        Q    Did they give you a business card

        21   at the time?

        22        A    They did, but I did not bring it


         1   with me.

         2        Q    Do you remember what office inside

         3   that Inspector General's Office they were

         4   from?

         5        A    I do not.

         6        Q    Have you been deposed other than in

         7   that circumstance?

         8        A    I have not.

         9        Q    Have you ever been made a defendant

        10   to a lawsuit?

        11        A    Not that I'm aware of.

        12        Q    You're not sure if you've been

        13   sued?

        14        A    Well, I've never been sued.

        15        Q    Have you ever been party to a

        16   lawsuit by virtue of being a witness before?

        17        A    I have not.

        18        Q    So you've never given testimony

        19   other than this one instance where you were

        20   deposed by the Inspector General concerning

        21   Linda Tripp in any legal proceeding?

        22        A    That is correct.


         1        Q    This is your second occurrence?

         2        A    Yes.

         3        Q    Did you meet with any of your

         4   counsel before this deposition?

         5        A    Yes, I did.

         6        Q    How long did you meet with the

         7   government counsel?

         8        A    Five minutes.

         9        Q    How long did you meet with your own

        10   counsel?

        11        A    Two hours.

        12        Q    When did that meeting take place?

        13        A    This morning.

        14        Q    Was it your decision to retain your

        15   own private counsel?

        16        A    Yes, it was.

        17        Q    Before your deposition here today,

        18   did you have a chance to read Clifford

        19   Bernath's deposition?

        20        A    I did not.

        21        Q    You have not read that deposition?

        22        A    I have not.


         1        Q    Has anyone relayed to you the

         2   context of what Mr. Bernath testified to?

         3        A    Not with any specificity.

         4        Q    But generally?

         5        A    My attorney has filled me in on one

         6   or two aspects of it.

         7        Q    I'm not asking you specifically

         8   what your attorney told you but just to

         9   identify the aspects, the general subject

        10   matter.

        11             MR. MURPHY:  I object, but I will

        12   allow Mr. Bacon to describe some of the

        13   general subject matters.

        14             MR. KLAYMAN:  I appreciate that.  I

        15   hope that government counsel can take a

        16   lesson from you, Mr. Murphy.

        17             MR. MURPHY:  I'm not intending to

        18   give any lessons.  I'm just allowing

        19   Mr. Bacon to answer some general questions.

        20             MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll pay for it.  How

        21   is that?

        22             THE WITNESS:  He described the


         1   length and tone of the proceeding.  He talked

         2   about some of the differences between press

         3   accounts of the deposition and what actually

         4   was said during the deposition.  I would say

         5   those are the main aspects we covered.

         6             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

         7        Q    Did he cover the aspect of whether

         8   or not you had instructed Mr. Bernath to

         9   release Linda Tripp's information?

        10        A    He told me how Mr. Bernath had

        11   answered those questions.

        12        Q    Did you cover the aspect of whether

        13   or not Mr. Bernath knew of any contact

        14   between the Pentagon and the White House?

        15        A    We did not cover that.

        16        Q    Now, during the conversation with

        17   Secretary Perry, I take it that he did tell

        18   you that he needed somebody he could trust?

        19        A    I don't believe he used that term.

        20        Q    What term did he use?

        21        A    I don't believe he used any term

        22   like that.


         1        Q    Did he say anything that caused you

         2   to believe that he needed a trustworthy

         3   person for this job?

         4        A    I think there was an assumption on

         5   both our parts that if he were to hire me for

         6   the job, it would be because we felt we saw

         7   eye to eye on the issues and how to deal with

         8   press issues.

         9        Q    Was your understanding, being an

        10   experienced journalist, that the role of

        11   Press Secretary was one that must have a very

        12   close relationship with his or her boss?

        13        A    Yes.

        14        Q    That, in fact, you are the

        15   spokesperson for your boss?

        16        A    Yes.

        17        Q    That in this instance it would be

        18   the Secretary of Defense?

        19        A    Yes.

        20        Q    So, therefore, the degree of

        21   loyalty would have to be very high?

        22        A    Yes.


         1        Q    The degree of trust would have to

         2   be very high?

         3        A    Yes.

         4        Q    You never want to do anything to

         5   embarrass your boss?

         6        A    Right.

         7        Q    That doing something to embarrass

         8   your boss could cause you your job?

         9        A    That is true.

        10        Q    That you are, in effect, in that

        11   role an alter ego in terms of speaking for

        12   your boss?

        13        A    Sometimes.

        14        Q    You understood that the Secretary

        15   of Defense served at the pleasure of the

        16   President of the United States?

        17        A    Yes.

        18        Q    That if he violated the trust of

        19   the President of the United States that he

        20   could be dismissed?

        21        A    That did not come up specifically.

        22        Q    But you understood that?


         1        A    Yes.

         2        Q    You understood that if he was not

         3   loyal to the President of the United States

         4   that your boss could be dismissed?

         5        A    I did not think of it in those

         6   terms.

         7        Q    But you understood, obviously, that

         8   that was the dynamics of the relationship?

         9        A    I understood that there had to be a

        10   relationship of trust between the Secretary

        11   of Defense and the President.

        12        Q    You are aware that the previous

        13   Secretary of Defense before Secretary Perry

        14   had been fired by the White House?

        15        A    I knew what happened to the

        16   previous Secretary of Defense.

        17        Q    Which is that he was terminated,

        18   correct?

        19        A    Yes, that's true.

        20        Q    Based on statements and conduct

        21   that he had made?

        22        A    You can read the history.


         1        Q    Well, that was your understanding,

         2   was it not?

         3        A    0h, my understanding was that there

         4   was a parting of the ways.

         5        Q    What is your understanding in terms

         6   of why there was a parting of the ways?

         7        A    My understanding was that the

         8   president wanted a different Secretary of

         9   Defense.

        10        Q    Because he lost confidence in the

        11   earlier secretary, correct?

        12             MR. MURPHY:  I object.

        13             THE WITNESS:  I don't know why.

        14             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

        15        Q    Was that ever discussed with

        16   Secretary Perry?

        17        A    It was not.

        18        Q    Has that ever been discussed with

        19   you and anyone else in the Clinton

        20   Administration?

        21        A    No.

        22        Q    The Pentagon does deal with chains


         1   of command, does it not, employment

         2   relationships?

         3             MR. MURPHY:  Is your question does

         4   the Pentagon deal with chains of command?

         5             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

         6        Q    That is a military phrase, is it

         7   not, chain of command?

         8        A    Chain of command is a military

         9   phrase.

        10        Q    The chain of command is that you

        11   reported to the Secretary of Defense?

        12        A    That is true.

        13        Q    The Secretary of Defense then

        14   reports to the President of the United

        15   States?

        16        A    On occasion, yes.

        17        Q    That he is the commander in chief?

        18        A    The President is the commander in

        19   chief.

        20        Q    So he is your ultimate superior,

        21   correct?

        22        A    He is.


         1        Q    You, meaning Ken Bacon.

         2        A    Well, he is the commander in chief.

         3        Q    Which means that he is the

         4   commander in chief of the military; correct?

         5        A    That's correct.

         6        Q    You understood that since you

         7   interviewed with the Pentagon?

         8        A    I'm not in the military, sir.

         9        Q    But you're working for the

        10   Department of Defense, which is the military,

        11   correct?

        12             MR. MURPHY:  Objection.

        13             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

        14        Q    That is your understanding, is it

        15   not?

        16        A    I work for the Department of

        17   Defense, yes.

        18        Q    That is a government agency, an

        19   executive agency which concerns the military,

        20   correct?

        21        A    The military is part of it.

        22        Q    Correct?


         1        A    Correct.

         2        Q    So what I'm saying to you is that

         3   the president as commander and chief is your

         4   ultimate superior, you, Ken Bacon, correct?

         5   That's your understanding?

         6             MR. MURPHY:  I object, but I think

         7   you you're just wrong, Mr. Klayman.

         8             MR. KLAYMAN:  I prefer that you not

         9   interrupt the testimony.  I'm willing to give

        10   you credit when credit is due, but this time

        11   you've gone too far, Mr. Murphy.

        12             MR. MURPHY:  Well, you having said

        13   that, I obviously have to defer.

        14             MR. KLAYMAN:  Thank you.

        15             THE WITNESS:  My understanding is

        16   that I works for the Secretary of Defense.

        17             MR. KLAYMAN:  But your

        18   understanding is also that your commander in

        19   chief, the president, is your ultimate

        20   superior?

        21             MR. MURPHY:  I object, Mr. Klayman.

        22   He's not in the military.


         1             MR. KLAYMAN:  You can respond.

         2             THE WITNESS:  My understanding is

         3   that I work for the Secretary of Defense.

         4             MR. KLAYMAN:  I object to you

         5   saying he's not in the military.

         6             MR. MURPHY:  Why?  He just said it.

         7             MR. KLAYMAN:  We can have a little

         8   bit of levity here.  I have no problems with

         9   that, but please don't give him testimony.

        10             MR. MURPHY:  As I understand it,

        11   Mr. Klayman, under the constitution the

        12   president as commander and chief is in charge

        13   of the military, but the Defense Department

        14   is not all within the military.

        15             MR. KLAYMAN:  You're now providing

        16   testimony.  This is sanctionable.  Certify

        17   it.  If it goes on one more time, we will be

        18   filing a motion.

        19             I'm asking you and I'm telling you

        20   this is our position.  One more of these

        21   objections and we will file a motion for

        22   sanctions.


         1             MR. MURPHY:  That's fine.  You can

         2   do whatever you like.

         3             MR. KLAYMAN:  Is it your

         4   understanding that your ultimate supervisor

         5   is the President of the United States?

         6             THE WITNESS:  No.

         7             MR. KLAYMAN:  That's how you

         8   influence testimony.  Certify it.

         9             MR. MURPHY:  That's a ridiculous

        10   statement.  Certify that, too.

        11             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

        12        Q    Is it your understanding that if

        13   the President of the United States tells the

        14   Secretary of Defense to fire you, that that

        15   will happen?

        16        A    I've never thought about that.

        17        Q    Well, think about it now, please,

        18   based on your experience.

        19        A    I suppose that's true.

        20        Q    What else was discussed during your

        21   meeting with Secretary Perry at the time?

        22        A    I think I've given you as complete


         1   an account as I can.

         2        Q    Did you have any other meetings

         3   with Secretary Perry, discussions or

         4   whatever, leading up to your employment as

         5   Assistant Secretary of Defense?

         6        A    No.

         7        Q    Were there any written

         8   communications exchanged?

         9        A    No.

        10        Q    Did you obtain any recommendations

        11   for the job, written or oral?

        12        A    No.

        13        Q    During the time that you were

        14   interviewing for the job, did you have any

        15   contact with anyone else inside or related to

        16   the Clinton Administration?

        17        A    Yes.

        18        Q    Who?

        19        A    Shortly -- well, the first person

        20   to contact me was Margaret Sullivan who

        21   worked at the Defense Department as White

        22   House liaison.


         1        Q    Who is Margaret Sullivan?

         2        A    She was the White House liaison

         3   person at the Department of Defense at that

         4   time.

         5        Q    I mean what were her duties and

         6   responsibilities as White House liaison?

         7        A    Her duties were to maintain contact

         8   between the department and the White House on

         9   a variety of issues.

        10        Q    Did she say why she was contacting

        11   you?

        12        A    Yes.

        13        Q    What did she tell you?

        14        A    She told me that she was going to

        15   take me to the White House to have me meet

        16   some people over there essentially to be

        17   vetted.

        18        Q    She told you why that was

        19   important, why that was necessary?

        20        A    No, she did not.

        21        Q    Did you ask?

        22        A    No.


         1        Q    Did you find that peculiar?

         2        A    No.

         3        Q    You didn't find it peculiar because

         4   your job was going to be to work closely with

         5   the White House, correct?

         6        A    I found it --

         7        Q    That's my question.

         8        A    Could you repeat the question?

         9        Q    You didn't find it peculiar because

        10   your duties and responsibilities as the Press

        11   Secretary of the Department of Defense was

        12   going to be to work closely with the White

        13   House?

        14        A    That is correct.

        15        Q    Did she take you over to the White

        16   House to meet people?

        17        A    She did.

        18        Q    When did that occur?

        19        A    It occurred, I believe, in late

        20   July or early August.

        21        Q    Who did you meet with?  Did the

        22   meeting take place?


         1        A    Yes, the meeting took place.

         2        Q    Who did you meet with?

         3        A    I met with Mack McLarty.

         4        Q    Anyone else?

         5        A    Dee Dee Meyers, sir and George

         6   Stephanopoulos.

         7        Q    Where did you meet?

         8        A    I met in the White House in their

         9   offices.

        10        Q    Was it all of their offices or one

        11   of their office?

        12        A    No.  Each one of their offices

        13   separately.

        14        Q    Did you meet them all at the same

        15   time or separately?

        16        A    I believe I met them all on the

        17   same day but I met them separately.

        18        Q    Which one did you meet first?

        19        A    Mack McLarty.

        20        Q    In his office?

        21        A    In his office.

        22        Q    What office is that?  You remember


         1   the room number?

         2        A    I do not.

         3        Q    Did Mr. McLarty tell you why he

         4   wanted to see you?

         5        A    He did not.

         6        Q    What did he tell you during the

         7   meeting?

         8        A    He asked me one question.  He asked

         9   me what were the most revolutionary media

        10   events that had taken place in recent years.

        11        Q    Did you find that strange?

        12        A    I thought it was an interesting

        13   question.

        14        Q    What did you say?

        15        A    I said the creation of CNN.

        16        Q    Did you say anything else?

        17        A    No.

        18        Q    What did he say?

        19        A    He listened.

        20        Q    He said, "Yes, we like CNN"?

        21        A    He did not.

        22        Q    Did he say anything else?


         1        A    Not that I can recall.

         2        Q    So that was it?

         3        A    That's basically it.

         4        Q    How long did the meeting last?

         5        A    It was short.  15 minutes, maybe.

         6        Q    That response only took about 10

         7   seconds.  What else went on for the next 14

         8   minutes and 50 seconds?

         9        A    I recall basically a discussion

        10   about CNN.

        11        Q    I take it that he said, "We need

        12   somebody at the Pentagon we can trust"?

        13        A    He did not say that.

        14        Q    I take it you got that impression?

        15        A    I did not get that impression.

        16        Q    Did he tell you that the Clinton

        17   Administration was being criticized from a

        18   number of different sources?

        19        A    He did not.

        20        Q    Inside and out of the media?

        21        A    He did not tell me that.

        22        Q    But you knew that at the time,


         1   correct?

         2        A    Well, I could read the press.

         3        Q    Is the answer yes?

         4        A    Did I know that the administration

         5   was being criticized?

         6        Q    Yes.

         7        A    Yes.

         8        Q    When did that meeting take place,

         9   what year?

        10        A    1994.

        11        Q    You knew at that time there was a

        12   scandal on the way called Whitewater?

        13             MS. WEISMANN:  We're going to take

        14   a break.

        15             MS. SHAPIRO:  We're going to take

        16   a 2-minute break, please.

        17             MR. KLAYMAN:  You all have to go to

        18   the restroom?

        19             MS. SHAPIRO:  I need to consult.

        20             MR. KLAYMAN:  Excuse me?  You want

        21   to consult with the witness?

        22             MS. SHAPIRO:  I'm going to consult


         1   with counsel for the witness, yes.

         2                  (Recess)

         3             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

         4        Q    Mr. Bacon, what else did you

         5   discuss with Mr. McLarty?

         6        A    That's all I recall.

         7        Q    That was 10 seconds out of 15

         8   minutes?

         9        A    You've made that observation

        10   before.

        11        Q    That's all you recall now?

        12        A    Well, I think I explained why I

        13   felt that CNN had been a revolutionary -- the

        14   creation of CNN had been a revolutionary

        15   media event, but that's basically what we

        16   discussed.

        17        Q    During this break did you discuss

        18   this line of testimony with counsel?

        19        A    I did not.

        20        Q    Who did you have a meeting with?

        21   Stephanopoulos?

        22        A    I believe my second meeting was


         1   with George Stephanopoulos.

         2        Q    Was that in his office?

         3        A    Yes, it was.

         4        Q    How long did that meeting take?

         5        A    It was also quite brief.

         6        Q    What did you discuss with

         7   Mr. Stephanopoulos?

         8        A    As I recall, he asked me one

         9   question.  He said that, "Do you have any

        10   fears about shifting from the press to being

        11   a spokesman for the government and do you

        12   think you would be able to do it?  Have you

        13   thought about the difficulties that this

        14   might involve?"

        15        Q    What did you say?

        16        A    I said I had thought about it.  We

        17   talked about it for a while.

        18        Q    What did you tell him?

        19        A    I told him that I thought that

        20   Secretary Perry wanted me to speak accurately

        21   about what was happening, that we both shared

        22   the same view, that the best way to deal with


         1   problems was to acknowledge them and to move

         2   from problem to solution, and that I felt

         3   that the energies required, the skills

         4   required to be a good reporter and a good

         5   press spokesman were basically the same and

         6   they were to get accurate information as

         7   quickly as possible, to organize it and to

         8   release it.

         9        Q    When you were there, was

        10   Ms. Sullivan with you when you had these

        11   meetings?

        12        A    She was in the McLarty meeting.  I

        13   believe she was in the Stephanopoulos

        14   meeting, as well.

        15        Q    So she would remember what was

        16   said, as well?

        17             MR. MURPHY:  Objection.  You can

        18   answer.

        19             THE WITNESS:  I have no idea.

        20             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

        21        Q    Was she taking notes while you were

        22   there?


         1        A    I don't believe so.

         2        Q    Did you take any notes?

         3        A    I did not.

         4        Q    Was Mr. McLarty taking notes?

         5        A    I don't believe so.

         6        Q    Was Mr. Stephanopoulos taking

         7   notes?

         8        A    Not that I recall.

         9        Q    What was Mr. McLarty's position at

        10   the time?  He was Chief of Staff, wasn't he?

        11        A    Well, I can't recall exactly when

        12   he left as Chief of Staff.  I believe he was

        13   Chief of Staff.

        14        Q    You understood that as Chief of

        15   Staff he was the second in command under the

        16   president in terms of running the White

        17   House; correct?

        18        A    Well, I understood that he wasn't

        19   the vice president, but I understood that he

        20   had an important administrative

        21   responsibility in the White House.

        22        Q    In fact, you understood in terms of


         1   operational responsibility, he was more

         2   important than the vice president?

         3        A    I didn't think about that.

         4        Q    That is your general understanding

         5   after all these years in Washington that the

         6   Chief of Staff is, in fact, more powerful

         7   than the vice president; isn't that your

         8   understanding?

         9        A    No.

        10        Q    But he is the president's

        11   representative.  You understood that,

        12   correct?

        13        A    Yes.

        14        Q    What was George Stephanopoulos at

        15   the time?

        16        A    Well, I don't remember what his

        17   exact title was.  He was I think a counselor

        18   or a presidential assistant.  I don't

        19   remember his exact title.

        20        Q    Did either Mr. McLarty or

        21   Mr. Stephanopoulos have any staff members in

        22   the meeting while you were there?


         1        A    No.

         2        Q    What else was discussed with

         3   Mr. Stephanopoulos?

         4        A    I think I have recounted the

         5   discussion as best I can remember.

         6        Q    What was your understanding as to

         7   why you were introduced to

         8   Mr. Stephanopoulos?

         9        A    Well, Mr. Stephanopoulos had been a

        10   Press Secretary and was a communications

        11   advisor to the president, and it made sense

        12   to me that he would want to talk to me in

        13   that capacity.

        14        Q    Because you would, if selected for

        15   this job, then have to liaise with him, among

        16   others?

        17             MR. MURPHY:  Is liaise a verb?

        18             MR. KLAYMAN:  It's French.

        19             THE WITNESS:  Indeed, I never did

        20   talk with George Stephanopoulos after I took

        21   the job.

        22             BY MR. KLAYMAN:


         1        Q    But you understood you would have

         2   to liaise with someone such as

         3   Mr. Stephanopoulos in the White House?

         4        A    Well, at that particular time, sir,

         5   I did not know with whom I would be

         6   discussing things other than with the White

         7   House Press Secretary.

         8        Q    But you understood that

         9   Mr. Stephanopoulos was in the Communications

        10   Department when you met with him?

        11        A    Yes.

        12        Q    That department worked under the

        13   Press Secretary of the White House?

        14        A    I believe it was the other way

        15   around, that the Press Secretary worked under

        16   George Stephanopoulos.

        17        Q    Who at that time was Dee Dee

        18   Meyers?

        19        A    She was the Press Secretary.

        20        Q    Right.  Was there anything else

        21   that you can remember that you discussed with

        22   Mr. Stephanopoulos?


         1        A    No.  That's all I recall.

         2        Q    You then met with Dee Dee Meyers?

         3        A    I did.

         4        Q    Where did you meet with her?

         5        A    In her office.

         6        Q    Who was present during that

         7   meeting?  Ms. Sullivan again?

         8        A    Margaret Sullivan.

         9        Q    Did she have anyone else present,

        10   Ms. Meyers?

        11        A    No.

        12        Q    What was discussed there?  I take

        13   it there was a third question?

        14        A    No.  Basically, she gave me advice.

        15   I don't think she asked me any questions.

        16        Q    What advice did she give you?

        17        A    She said don't take it personally

        18   and keep a sense of humor.

        19        Q    What did she mean by, "don't take

        20   it personally"?

        21        A    I think she meant that jobs like

        22   this can be unpleasant at times.


         1        Q    Did she say why?

         2        A    She did not.

         3        Q    Did she tell you that to perform in

         4   this job you have to do what you're told?

         5        A    She did not.

         6        Q    But you understood that she was

         7   telling you about being loyal to the

         8   administration?  She was trying to get that

         9   point across?

        10        A    No, I didn't understand that.

        11        Q    Did she elaborate on what she meant

        12   by sense of humor, keeping your sense of

        13   humor?

        14        A    We talked a little bit about some

        15   of the challenges.  She talked about the

        16   challenges she was facing.  She talked about

        17   the daily conference calls that went on

        18   between the White House -- well, among the

        19   White House, the Defense Department, the

        20   State Department, the CIA, the United States,

        21   United Nations, press operation, and talked

        22   some about the format of doing the job and


         1   the day-to-day pressures, the day-to-day

         2   schedules and basically gave me a description

         3   of what the job was like from her standpoint.

         4        Q    She talked to you what it was going

         5   to be like communicating with her, correct?

         6        A    To some extent.

         7        Q    What did she tell you about how

         8   that would work?

         9        A    I don't have a very specific

        10   recollection of that.  It was mainly a

        11   description on her part about the daily

        12   conference call and the type of information

        13   she wanted from those calls.  We talked some

        14   about recent briefings she had done.  I had

        15   been reading the transcripts, and how she

        16   handled certain issues, but I can't remember

        17   which ones with any specificity.

        18        Q    When you talk about daily

        19   conference call, you mean daily conference

        20   call with her or with others, as well?

        21        A    I was talking about this conference

        22   call I described earlier.


         1        Q    I'm sorry.  I didn't understand.

         2   Which one did you describe earlier?

         3        A    The conference call I described

         4   earlier.

         5        Q    Which is?

         6             MR. MURPHY:  Repeat it for him.

         7             THE WITNESS:  I described the daily

         8   conference call that involves the White House

         9   Press Office, the State Department Press

        10   Office, the Pentagon Press Office, the CIA

        11   Press Office and the Press Office of the U.S.

        12   Mission at the United Nations.  There is also

        13   usually a representative from the Joint

        14   Chiefs of Staff on that call.

        15             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

        16        Q    This conference call takes place

        17   every morning?

        18        A    No.  It takes place everyday at

        19   about between 12 and 12:30.

        20        Q    Who are present on these conference

        21   calls?  The press secretaries of the various

        22   agencies?


         1        A    In principle, yes.

         2        Q    Are there anybody else who are

         3   involved?  Do aides listen in on these

         4   conference calls?

         5        A    I think probably several aides do

         6   in each office, yes.

         7        Q    These conference calls take place

         8   by speakerphone?

         9        A    Not in my office, no.

        10        Q    How does it occur in your office?

        11        A    I have a phone and I listen on the

        12   phone.

        13        Q    Do you have anyone else present

        14   when you're taking part in these conference

        15   calls?

        16        A    I do not.

        17        Q    Is anyone else in your office at

        18   the time?

        19        A    No.

        20        Q    Are you saying that's never been

        21   the case?  You've never had somebody

        22   listening to one of these conference calls on


         1   a speakerphone with you?

         2        A    Now you've asked me a different

         3   question.

         4        Q    I know.

         5        A    There are other people in my office

         6   who listen to the call on their telephones.

         7        Q    Who else generally listens to the

         8   calls?

         9        A    Captain Mike Doubleday is one of my

        10   deputies.  Cliff Bernath used to listen from

        11   time to time.  I believe Colonel Dick Bridges

        12   sometimes listens, as well.  I believe my

        13   military assistant, Colonel Ed Veiga,

        14   listens.

        15        Q    I take it there's somebody on your

        16   staff who prepares a memorandum of what took

        17   place during these calls?

        18        A    No.

        19        Q    Are any of these calls recorded?

        20        A    No.  Not in my office.

        21        Q    Electronically?

        22        A    Not in my office.


         1        Q    But you don't know whether that's

         2   true in the other departments?

         3        A    I would be stunned if they are.

         4        Q    I take it that you take notes

         5   during these conversations?

         6        A    Occasionally.

         7        Q    I take it that Mike Doubleday,

         8   Cliff Bernath, Dick Bridges and Ed Veiga take

         9   notes sometimes?

        10        A    I do not know.

        11        Q    Do you know where those notes are

        12   stored that you take?

        13        A    In a notebook.

        14        Q    Who stores them for you?  Do you

        15   have an administrative assistant?

        16        A    No.

        17        Q    Do you have a secretary?

        18        A    I do.

        19        Q    Who is your secretary?

        20        A    Melanie Shender.

        21        Q    How is that spelled?

        22        A    S-h-e-n-d-e-r.


         1        Q    Was she your secretary at the time

         2   that Linda Tripp's personnel information was

         3   released?

         4        A    Yes, she was.

         5        Q    How long has she been with you?

         6        A    She's been there since January

         7   of 1998.

         8        Q    Who was your secretary before then?

         9        A    Monica Lewinsky.

        10        Q    I take it she left in January 1998,

        11   Ms. Lewinsky?

        12        A    No.  She left in December of 1997.

        13        Q    Was there anyone who filled that

        14   role as secretary between Ms. Lewinsky and

        15   Ms. Shender?

        16        A    I believe from time to time Mark

        17   Huffman filled that desk.

        18        Q    How is that spelled?

        19        A    H-u-f-f-m-a-n.

        20        Q    What is Mr. Huffman's title?

        21        A    He's an administrative assistant in

        22   my office.


         1        Q    Are there other administrative

         2   assistants in your office?

         3        A    There is a chief petty officer, Tom

         4   West.

         5        Q    What are his duties and

         6   responsibilities?

         7        A    He answers the phones, he takes

         8   phone messages, he does Xeroxing, he delivers

         9   things, he does what administrative

        10   assistants do.

        11        Q    I take it that all three of these

        12   people help you run and manage your office

        13   from an administrative standpoint?

        14        A    Yes.

        15        Q    Who is it specifically that does

        16   your filing for you, if anyone in particular,

        17   or do they all three do that?

        18        A    I think it would be primarily

        19   Melanie.

        20        Q    She does keep a notebook of your

        21   notes?

        22        A    She does not.


         1        Q    Does she store your notes?

         2        A    She does not.

         3        Q    How are your notes kept?

         4        A    In a drawer.

         5        Q    What drawer is that?

         6        A    I have several drawers in my desk

         7   and I throw the notebooks in when I complete

         8   them.

         9        Q    0h, you keep notes in a notebook?

        10        A    I do.

        11        Q    Is it kind of like a school

        12   notebook?  Is that what it's like?

        13        A    It's smaller than this.

        14        Q    Can you hold that up so the camera

        15   can see what it is you're referring to?

        16        A    Well, that's 8 X 10.  I would say

        17   my notebook is 4 X 6.

        18        Q    What are you pointing to,

        19   Mr. Bacon, just so we can identify it.

        20        A    I'll describe my notebook.  It's 4

        21   X 6, approximately.

        22        Q    You keep notes in there?


         1        A    Yes, I do.  That's what notebooks

         2   are for.

         3        Q    Right.  When you finish one, you

         4   put the one you finished away and then you go

         5   on and use a new one?

         6        A    Right.

         7        Q    Is there any other way that you

         8   record your thoughts or communications?

         9        A    No.  That's the primary way.

        10        Q    Do you use a computer at all?

        11        A    I do.

        12        Q    Do you type your own

        13   correspondence?

        14        A    I usually dictate it.

        15        Q    To whom?

        16        A    Melanie Shender.

        17        Q    Before that, Monica Lewinsky?

        18        A    Yes.

        19        Q    Does Ms. Lewinsky ever take

        20   dictation?

        21        A    She did, yes.

        22             MS. WEISMANN:  I'm not going to


         1   allow anymore questions along that line.

         2   It's outside the scope that he's been

         3   authorized to testify.

         4             MR. KLAYMAN:  Wait a second.

         5             MS. WEISMANN:  I am entitled to

         6   make an objection, Mr. Klayman, and I am

         7   entitled to make an objection uninterrupted.

         8             MR. KLAYMAN:  You're entitled also

         9   to be courteous and not rude and nasty.

        10             MS. WEISMANN:  As are you,

        11   Mr. Klayman.

        12             MR. KLAYMAN:  I would hope that you

        13   would not be so here because I'm simply

        14   looking into the issue of how documents are

        15   stored and kept.  I realize that the Clinton

        16   Administration doesn't want me to ever ask a

        17   question with the two words, "Monica

        18   Lewinsky."  That's been clear throughout

        19   these depositions.  We're also clear on the

        20   reason for that, in all likelihood.  But I'm

        21   simply interested in how documents are kept

        22   right now.


         1             MS. WEISMANN:  Mr. Klayman, let me

         2   remind you that the scope of what Mr. Bacon

         3   has been authorized to testify to concerns

         4   the disclosure of information contained in

         5   the Federal Security Clearance Form of Linda

         6   Tripp.  The testimony so far is that his

         7   secretary during that period was not Monica

         8   Lewinsky.

         9             MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, there may have

        10   been things recorded leading up to this

        11   event; so, therefore, I'm entitled.

        12             MS. WEISMANN:  If you want to focus

        13   your questions in on what he's been

        14   authorized to testify to, I would suggest you

        15   do so.

        16             MR. KLAYMAN:  I would suggest that

        17   you not instruct me on what my job is.

        18   Because, you see, if I was going to ever

        19   follow your instructions, we'd never learn

        20   anything for obvious reasons.

        21             Certify this.

        22             MR. MURPHY:  Let me suggest,


         1   Mr. Klayman, that you ask him a question and

         2   move along.

         3             MR. KLAYMAN:  Thank you,

         4   Mr. Murphy.  When you do dictation, how is

         5   the dictation done?  I would like this area

         6   certified, too.  Where is the dictation done?

         7             THE WITNESS:  In my office.

         8             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

         9        Q    Is it done on a notepad?

        10        A    Yes.

        11        Q    Do you use a dictaphone at all?

        12        A    No, I don't.

        13        Q    When you type a document, how is it

        14   typed?

        15        A    It's typed on my computer.

        16        Q    What kind of a computer have you

        17   had?  Tell me if it's changed.

        18        A    Well, I've had two types of

        19   computers -- 3 types.  When I got there,

        20   there was an IBM compatible.  I asked that to

        21   be changed to a McIntosh.  It was.  Now I

        22   have a Dell.


         1        Q    Do you know where the IBM

         2   compatible is located at this point?

         3        A    Well, this was in 1994 when I made

         4   the change, and I have no idea where it's

         5   located.

         6        Q    Let's just go back in the last

         7   year.  What kind of computer do you have?

         8        A    In the last year I've had a Dell

         9   and a McIntosh.

        10        Q    Are they both still in your office?

        11        A    No.

        12        Q    Which one left?

        13        A    The McIntosh left.

        14        Q    Where is that now?

        15        A    I have no idea.

        16        Q    I take it you did record the serial

        17   number of that computer or somebody has it?

        18        A    I did not.

        19             MR. KLAYMAN:  What's funny about

        20   that?  Would you please not interrupt the

        21   deposition by laughing.  We're being kind of

        22   lenient here with all these lawyers here.


         1   It's my understanding that you're entitled to

         2   one representative from the Department of

         3   Defense.  I didn't make an issue of that but

         4   I ask you not to laugh.

         5             MR. MURPHY:  Is there a question

         6   pending, Mr. Klayman?

         7             MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

         8             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  I don't

         9   recall the question.

        10             MR. KLAYMAN:  Let the record

        11   reflect it's Brad Lehman man who laughed.

        12             MR. MURPHY:  I had a little trouble

        13   suppressing a chuckle myself.

        14             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

        15        Q    Do you know who would have the

        16   serial number of that computer such that it

        17   could be tracked down?

        18        A    I do not.

        19        Q    Have you used a laptop computer?

        20        A    Yes.

        21        Q    Is that provided to you by the

        22   Pentagon or is that your own?


         1        A    I have one of my own and one of the

         2   Pentagon's.

         3        Q    Do you use your own sometimes on

         4   Pentagon business?

         5        A    Only at home.

         6        Q    Have you used laptop computers in

         7   the last year?

         8        A    Yes.

         9        Q    Where is your Pentagon laptop

        10   located?  Where do you keep it?

        11        A    In the Pentagon.

        12        Q    You use that while you're

        13   traveling?

        14        A    No.  Actually, I have a docking

        15   station and my permanent computer is a

        16   laptop.

        17        Q    So the Dell is a laptop?

        18        A    It is.

        19        Q    The computer at home, it's a

        20   different laptop?

        21        A    It's a different laptop.

        22        Q    What kind is that?


         1        A    Dell.

         2        Q    You like Dells?

         3        A    I do.

         4        Q    Have you erased any files on the

         5   hard drive for any of the computers that you

         6   used in the last year?

         7        A    Not that I'm aware of.  I can't say

         8   definitively that I haven't but I don't

         9   believe I have.

        10        Q    Do you keep floppy disks?

        11        A    I do not.

        12        Q    You never put a document on a disk?

        13        A    Only if I'm transporting it from

        14   one computer to another.

        15        Q    Is your Dell in the office that has

        16   a docking station, I take it that goes into a

        17   central server?

        18        A    I assume it does, yes.

        19        Q    Is your computer at home hooked up

        20   to the Pentagon's central server?

        21        A    I can get into it if I have to.

        22        Q    With a pass code and a modem?


         1        A    Yes.

         2        Q    During these daily staff meetings,

         3   these daily conferences --

         4             MR. MURPHY:  Conference calls?

         5             MR. KLAYMAN:  Conference calls,

         6   yes.  Has the name Linda Tripp ever come up?

         7             THE WITNESS:  No.

         8             MR. KLAYMAN:  During these daily

         9   staff conferences, has the name Jane Mayer

        10   ever come up?

        11             MR. MURPHY:  You mean the

        12   conference calls, Mr.Klayman?

        13             MR. KLAYMAN:  Conference calls.

        14             THE WITNESS:  No.

        15             MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me just call them

        16   conferences so we can make it simple.

        17             During these daily conferences, has

        18   the Lewinsky scandal ever been discussed?

        19             MS. WEISMANN:  I object to the

        20   question because it calls for information

        21   beyond the scope which he is authorized to

        22   testify to, and I direct him not to answer.


         1             MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.  Let me

         2   give you a little proffer, for the record.

         3   Obviously I'm entitled to ask a broader

         4   question here to see whether or not that jogs

         5   his memory or leads me to evidence which may

         6   be relevant, and the whole Tripp incident is

         7   part of the Monica Lewinsky scandal, so I

         8   have to be able to ask those kinds of

         9   questions.

        10             To the extent that you continue to

        11   obstruct this deposition by ordering him not

        12   to answer, it's quite clear that the Clinton

        13   Justice Department is part of improper

        14   conduct and I ask that you not do it anymore.

        15             Certify.

        16             MR. MURPHY:  Is there a question

        17   pending?

        18             MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll ask my questions

        19   in due time, Mr. Murphy.

        20             MR. MURPHY:  I'm just trying to get

        21   things moving along, Mr. Klayman.

        22             MR. KLAYMAN:  They've been moving


         1   pretty good.

         2             MR. MURPHY:  By your standards.

         3             MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't need

         4   wisecracks.  Mr. Bacon, did you meet with

         5   anybody else in the White House in the course

         6   of interviews for your position?

         7             THE WITNESS:  Not that I recall.

         8             BY MR. KLAYMAN:

         9        Q    Let's go back to these daily

        10   conference calls.  Has the name Jane Mayer of

        11   The New Yorker ever come up?

        12        A    No.

        13        Q    Did there come a point in time when

        14   you were offered a job at the Pentagon?

        15        A    Yes.

        16        Q    When was that?

        17        A    Well, essentially, I believe it was

        18   in early July when I was called by Deputy

        19   Secretary Deutch and he told me that I was

        20   Secretary Perry's choice for the job.

        21        Q    What happened after that?

        22        A    After that a week or so elapsed,


         1   and then Margaret Sullivan called me.

         2        Q    What did she say?

         3        A    She said that she needed to

         4   introduce me to some people at the White

         5   House.

         6        Q    Did that ultimately happen?

         7        A    Yes, it did.

         8        Q    Did she say why she wanted to

         9   introduce you to people at the White House?

        10        A    She did not.

        11        Q    When were you introduced, I take

        12   it, to people at the White House?

        13             MR. MURPHY:  I think this is what

        14   he just explained for the last half hour.

        15             MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, maybe I got it

        16   in reverse.

        17             MR. MURPHY:  I'm having a deja vu

        18   experience.

        19             THE WITNESS:  I'm prepared to go

        20   through it again.

        21             MR. KLAYMAN:  I thought that

        22   occurred before he was offered the job.



Previous Section / Next Section
of this Deposition