101
1 that message.
2 Q Were you and James present?
3 A When?
4 Q Both at the same time? When you
5 had that meeting at Little Rock?
6 A I am not referring to a particular
7 meeting.
8 Q Well, I am. I wanted to know when
9 you were hired, and when it was decided what
10 you were going to do in terms of your duties
11 and responsibilities?
12 A We were hired effectively
13 December 1. We were hired to be the
14 strategists for the campaign.
15 Q December 1, 1995?
16 A 1991.
17 Q Excuse me, I am sorry. At that
18 point in time, when you were hired, had you
19 ever had any discussion about conducting some
20 kind of research on political opponents with
21 Governor Clinton or anyone associated with
22 him?
102
1 A In every campaign you want to know
2 the record of your candidate and the other
3 candidates for that job.
4 I don't remember a specific
5 conversation, but every campaign, we make
6 sure that they know every bill introduced or
7 every policy and position advocated, and --
8 so I am sure that there was.
9 Q Did you discuss researching issues
10 involving Whitewater?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Did you discuss issues involving
13 President Clinton's alleged relationships
14 with women other than Hillary Clinton?
15 A No. Before I came on, the Governor
16 had had a press conference vaguely on that
17 topic.
18 Q You are saying you or Mr. Carville
19 never discussed that with him?
20 A It was at the beginning of the
21 campaign. It was the view of the campaign
22 that the Governor had put that to rest. He
103
1 had a press conference before I ever worked
2 for him or some sort of press encounter where
3 he had felt like he put that behind him.
4 So, it wasn't a topic of
5 conversation that I can recall, until later
6 in the campaign when charges flew.
7 Q Did you ever have any discussions
8 about Jerry Brown?
9 A I would imagine. I don't remember
10 a particular conversation.
11 Q Did you discuss digging up
12 information about him?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did you ever have any discussions
15 about Paul Tsongas?
16 A I am sure. He was one of our
17 opponents.
18 Q Did you discuss digging up
19 information about him?
20 A Not digging up information about
21 him. He was a United States Senator, I think
22 he was a Congressman before that.
104
1 Q Were there people on that Clinton
2 campaign who were in charge of doing
3 research?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Who were they?
6 A I think Eric Berman worked on that
7 campaign as well. I can't remember other
8 people's particular names from '92. Berman
9 is a person I did work with before.
10 Q Does the name Terry Linzner ring a
11 bell?
12 A No, I have seen his name in the
13 paper in the last week or two.
14 Q Have you ever talked to him?
15 A Not to the best of my knowledge.
16 Q Have you ever met him?
17 A Not to the best of my knowledge.
18 Q You are aware he has been an
19 investigator for the President perhaps
20 employed through --
21 A I have seen that through the
22 newspapers but do not know that
105
1 independently.
2 Q You are aware that an effort was
3 made to obtain information about women who
4 allegedly had affairs with President Clinton?
5 A I have seen that in the newspapers.
6 Q You are not aware of any?
7 A I have seen it in the papers.
8 Q I know you have seen it in the
9 papers. So, has everybody else. But, are
10 you aware of it?
11 A I am not aware of any of that.
12 Q Are you saying that it never
13 happened?
14 A No, sir. I'm saying I have seen it
15 in the papers.
16 Q Is Mr. Carville aware of that?
17 A You have to ask him. I don't know.
18 Q Has he ever talked about it?
19 A About what?
20 Q Surely, in the last few days or at
21 least in the last few weeks, he must have
22 discussed with you these reports that Clinton
106
1 had hired private investigators, directly or
2 through his attorneys, to investigate.
3 A I don't remember talking to James
4 about that.
5 Q Talk to anybody about that?
6 A Sure.
7 Q Who?
8 A Well, members of the press have
9 asked.
10 Q Talk to anybody at the White House
11 about that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Who?
14 A Members of the press staff,
15 communications staff, counsel's office.
16 Q Who?
17 A Michael McCurry, who has been asked
18 about this. Chuck Ruff, the White House
19 counsel. I am sure others as well. Those
20 two in particular.
21 Q Why did you ask them with that?
22 A Because Joseph diGenova went on To
107
1 Meet the Press and accused the White House of
2 investigating him and his wife, and it became
3 a hot topic among the press.
4 Q Jumping a little ahead, I wanted to
5 take it chronologically, but what are your
6 duties and responsibilities as assistant and
7 counselor to the President, currently?
8 A I assist the President on matters
9 of communication and policy, particularly the
10 public advocacy of his agenda.
11 Q What does that mean in simple
12 terms?
13 A In simple terms, I try to help
14 formulate and advocate the initiatives that
15 the President believes in.
16 Q Are you a kind of communications
17 director?
18 A No, we have a communications
19 director.
20 Q Is your job akin to working out
21 strategy to deflect criticism of the Clinton
22 White House?
108
1 A That is part. Principally, if I
2 can give you an example, when the President
3 was preparing for his State of the Union
4 address, I worked very hard for many weeks on
5 the strategy to roll out the policy
6 initiatives that he had decided on in the
7 budget process.
8 Various techniques that you could
9 use to draw attention to the policy proposals
10 that he was going to make.
11 Q When Mr. diGenova made his
12 statements on national TV, did you discuss
13 with Mr. McCurry about that? I guess, you
14 just said that you did.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Mr. McCurry called Mr. diGenova's
17 statement, blatant lies?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You consulted with Mr. McCurry
20 about coming up with that pronouncement?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What information did you have that
109
1 Mr. diGenova's statements were blatant lies?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: I want to state an
3 objection, because this has nothing to do
4 with the FBI files matter.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, it does. You
6 can respond.
7 THE WITNESS: It actually does not
8 have anything to do -- if I could finish my
9 sentence --
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q That is a gratuitous remark. I am
12 asking you to answer a question.
13 A How do we know that?
14 Q Yes.
15 A We asked attorneys in counsel's
16 office.
17 Q Which attorneys did you ask?
18 A I remember Mr. Ruff in particular.
19 Q You took it on face value?
20 A Chuck Ruff tells me something, I
21 believe it.
22 Q Chuck Ruff told you to tell McCurry
110
1 to say they were blatant lies?
2 A No, we were actually participating
3 in a meeting by conference recall.
4 Q Who was present in the meeting?
5 A I remember Mike and Chuck
6 particularly, because they were the two
7 people sort of most engaged.
8 Q Who else?
9 A I can't remember particularly, but
10 I know that it must have been other people.
11 Q How long ago was that?
12 A That was whatever Sunday that Joe
13 diGenova made that charge.
14 Q It turned out, in fact, a private
15 investigator had been hired by the counsel
16 for the President, correct, Mr. Kendall?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: He testified that he
18 had no knowledge that Mr. Lenzner was hired,
19 period.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, don't give
21 him testimony.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: I am stating the
111
1 objection that it has been asked and
2 answered. He testified.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You are aware of that now, aren't
5 you?
6 A I have seen press accounts about
7 this guy Lenzner having been hired by the
8 President's private lawyers.
9 Q The White House gave that a
10 pronouncement that, in fact, no private
11 investigators had ever been hired by lawyers
12 for the President?
13 A That is not my recollection at all.
14 Q What is your recollection?
15 A My recollection, is the statement,
16 which I don't have in front of me, the
17 statement said an allegation that
18 investigators were hired to dig up dirt on
19 investigators, or prosecutors, or reporters,
20 or Joe diGenova, or his wife was a blatant
21 lie.
22 I remember also, press staff being
112
1 frustrated that no one in the news media had
2 asked the White House for a response before
3 airing it. I think that was a misstatement,
4 too.
5 Had Mr. diGenova checked with the
6 White House he would have found that it was
7 false. I am trying to do my best to answer
8 as fully as I can, Mr. Klayman. I don't like
9 continued interruptions.
10 Q The reason you have a staccato way
11 of talking, it is not my intention to
12 interrupt you. I would like you to tell as
13 much as you know.
14 Your particular way of speaking
15 leads me to believe sometimes you are
16 finished when you haven't. No criticism
17 intended?
18 A Can use a media coach.
19 Q We will do that later. We have a
20 couch, we can lay down.
21 There was a pronouncement issued by
22 the White House that no investigators had
113
1 been hired by anyone associated with the
2 Clinton administration, correct?
3 A No, that is not my recollection. I
4 don't have the statement in front of me, but
5 to the best of my recollection, that was not
6 the statement.
7 Q You do play a role in part of your
8 duties and responsibilities in communicating
9 with Mike McCurry to disseminate information
10 to the media and others; is that correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Is there someone that you work with
13 or a group of people at the White House who
14 research and gather information about
15 opponents of the Clinton administration?
16 A Never -- again, getting back to the
17 topic at hand, never any discussions that
18 have anything to do with the use or misuse of
19 FBI files, never. It is important that you
20 know that.
21 Q Is there anyone in your office or
22 anybody that you work with at the White House
114
1 who gathers information on perceived
2 adversaries of the Clinton administration?
3 A No. There is no one whose job it is
4 to gather information on perceived
5 adversaries. Not that I know.
6 Q Is there anyone who does it?
7 A Everybody hears, reads papers,
8 hears news broadcasts, and receives
9 information.
10 There is not, to my knowledge,
11 someone whose job it is to do that.
12 Q I am not asking you whether there
13 is a formal job description to do it. I am
14 asking whether there are persons at the White
15 House or associated with the White House, who
16 research information about individuals who
17 have said critical things, or who have filed
18 lawsuits, or have taken other actions
19 considered to be adverse to the
20 administration?
21 A Not that I know of. No, sir. Part
22 of my job is talking to the press and
115
1 defending the President. Certainly, if I was
2 criticizing people like yourself who, I
3 think, say untrue things about me, it is not
4 like some office where I go to get that. I
5 just know when I see something that is false
6 on TV, I know that it is false.
7 Q Do you have a secretary or a staff
8 that works with you?
9 A I have an assistant.
10 Q Who is your assistant?
11 A Stacy Parker.
12 Q What is her formal job description?
13 A I don't know -- she is an
14 administrative person. She answers the
15 phones.
16 Q Do you have a research assistant
17 that works with you?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you work with any interns?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q No pejorative connotation intended?
22 A No, the first few days I had an
116
1 intern, Stacy was hired on.
2 Q Who was the intern?
3 A A young woman named Melissa Prober
4 from Connecticut. Good kid.
5 Q Have you ever asked anyone in the
6 White House to do some research for you on
7 perceived adversaries of the Clinton
8 administration?
9 A Not that I can recall.
10 Q Have you ever asked any of the
11 President's lawyers to do research on
12 perceived adversaries?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Have you ever talked to any of the
15 President's lawyers perceived adversaries of
16 the Clinton administration?
17 A Not that I can recall.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I think you have to
19 specify who you are talking about.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I am talking
21 generally.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
117
1 Q Do you know what I mean by
2 perceived adversaries? I just defined it a
3 few minutes ago.
4 A If you could again.
5 Q Someone who has been critical or
6 filed lawsuits against, or written books,
7 negative to the Clinton administration.
8 People like that, organizations like that?
9 A I can't remember any conversations
10 like that, no.
11 Q Do you know of anyone in the White
12 House who has instructed others to do
13 research about perceived adversaries?
14 A Not that I know, no.
15 Q What is the job of Sidney
16 Blumenthal at the White House?
17 A He is an advisor to the President,
18 assistant to the President is his formal
19 title.
20 Q Do you work closely with
21 Mr. Blumenthal?
22 A He is one of several top aides I
118
1 work with.
2 Q Mr. Blumenthal does gather
3 information about perceived adversaries of
4 the Clinton administration, does he not?
5 A Not that I know of. Again, I want
6 to state for the record, never have I been
7 aware of or heard any conversation of use or
8 misuse of FBI files, never.
9 Q So, as far as you are concerned,
10 Mr. Begala, you don't know of anyone, either
11 inside the White House, Clinton White House
12 or anyone associated with White House, who
13 has ever researched any perceived adversaries
14 of the Clinton administration?
15 A Can you restate that?
16 Q You don't know of anyone inside the
17 Clinton White House or associated with the
18 Clinton White House, outside of it, who has
19 ever researched any perceived adversaries of
20 the Clinton administration?
21 A By research, clearly --
22 Q Gathered information about?
119
1 A Clearly, I get news clippings about
2 various political issues. So, if that is
3 what you mean, then certainly, yes. Is that
4 what you mean?
5 Q Anything else, besides news
6 clippings?
7 A Not that I know of. News clippings
8 or votes and quotes, as I call them.
9 Q Have you ever gotten any kind of
10 documents other than news clippings, or do
11 you know of anyone else who has?
12 A Summaries, or clippings, or talking
13 points about facts or issues.
14 Q That is it?
15 A That is it.
16 Q You don't know of anybody else who
17 has ever undertaken to research an adversary
18 of the Clinton administration?
19 A Again, by research, I say lots of
20 news clippings, or summaries of voting
21 records, or budget proposals, or any number
22 of public issues that are compiled and that I
120
1 sometimes use when I am talking with the
2 press.
3 If you could give me a more
4 concrete question or a more specific example.
5 Q It has been reported that Sidney
6 Blumenthal has talked to the press about the
7 records of Ken Starr's colleagues,
8 particularly Mr. Udoff.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Is there a question?
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You have seen that, right?
12 A I have seen stories about said,
13 yes.
14 Q Did you play any role in uncovering
15 Mr. Udoff's records?
16 MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Klayman, that
17 has absolutely nothing to do with the FBI
18 files. It is totally irrelevant. I will let
19 him respond, but I must say this is wearing
20 mighty thin.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: It shows a course of
22 conducts. You at the Justice Department
121
1 should be more concerned than me at Judicial
2 Watch.
3 THE WITNESS: Do you mind if I take
4 a break?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Answer the question,
6 and we will take a break.
7 MR. SHAPIRO: If you need a break,
8 go ahead and take a break.
9 THE WITNESS: Could you restate the
10 question?
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Have you played any role in
13 researching the legal background of
14 Mr. Udoff?
15 A I have seen news clippings; and I
16 remember a column in the Atlantic
17 Constitution that I received, I don't
18 remember when I received it from, but I
19 remember a news clipping from the Atlanta
20 Constitution.
21 Q Has anyone from the White House
22 played a role, that you know of, in
122
1 researching Mr. Udoff's legal past?
2 A No, sir, I don't know. The news
3 clippings that have come out. And I
4 remember, if I might, particularly subsequent
5 to that news clipping, an editorial and
6 another column from that same columnist,
7 stating publicly that none of this came from
8 the White House. It was one of those rare
9 occasions.
10 I noticed it because it was one of
11 the rare occasions where a reporter came ford
12 and said where the information did not or did
13 come from.
14 Q Do you know where it did come from?
15 A The columnist said, and I don't
16 remember. But I remember she wrote a column
17 saying this was not from the White House,
18 because these stories came out. There was
19 quite a firestorm.
20 I remember the woman did a
21 follow-up column, that I saw, that said these
22 did not come from the White House.
123
1 Do you mind if I take a break now?
2 Q I have just one last question.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Your opening your
4 remarks, you told the witness that he could
5 take a break whenever he requested to take a
6 break. I think that is only polite and
7 courteous. Since he sat here since,
8 now 9:30, answering questions not related to
9 this lawsuit --
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I have one question
11 before the break.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: That's what you said
13 two questions ago.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Is it not part of your duties and
16 responsibilities to dig up dirt from
17 perceived adversaries of the Clinton
18 administration?
19 A No, sir. In fact, if I can
20 elaborate, I would be happy to.
21 A No, sir. In fact, if I can
22 elaborate, I would be happy to.
124
1 I believe in research of the public
2 records. I draw a bright line between public
3 performance in office and private matters.
4 I -- in every campaign I have been on a
5 federal research staff, in no campaign that I
6 am aware of have I ever used any kinds of
7 digging up dirt.
8 Let me finish. This matters to me.
9 This goes to the philosophy that I have of
10 campaigning.
11 I believe that public issues
12 invariably win or lose the campaign. There
13 are some people in politics who believe in
14 silver bullets, who believe in conspiracies,
15 who believe in scandal as a way to succeed.
16 I don't.
17 I believe you win these elections,
18 if I can use the Wofford example, I won that
19 election for Senator Wofford. He supported
20 health care. Governor Thornburgh did not. I
21 have high respect for Governor Thornburgh as
22 a man. I disagree with him strongly on
125
1 politics.
2 And the reason Harris Wofford won
3 that, in part, was I had researchers that
4 went through Thornburgh's public record and
5 had information where he said, "We did not
6 need a national health care plan." And we
7 used those statements in ads and they helped
8 defeat Dick Thornburgh. And I'm proud of
9 that. I think that is how politics should be
10 run, and that is how I practice politics.
11 Q Is it not true that there is those
12 in the White House --
13 A I'm going to take a break now.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: This would be a good
15 time to take a break.
16 Should we just break for lunch now?
17 It's about noon.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I use sparingly the
19 word "misrepresented," Ms. Shapiro, since
20 your pleadings are replete with them.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't understand
22 what you are referring to. Is this a
126
1 question of business?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: We will be getting
3 into this. I hope you have some documents
4 for me with regard to Mr. Begala.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, we do. Would
6 you like them now?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: That is what I am
8 talking about, the previous representations
9 that he produced everything.
10 MS. PAXTON: You never even asked
11 for those documents.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, we have. Yes,
13 we have.
14 MS. PAXTON: Not during this
15 deposition, you have not.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: At any rate, let the
18 record reflect now that I am handing
19 Plaintiff's counsel a response to the
20 document request served by Mr. Begala.
21 I also note for the record that Mr.
22 Begala never received a subpoena in this
127
1 matter, and we are responding pursuant to the
2 notice.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: We will get to that.
4 You want to take a lunch break now?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: How about 45 minutes?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Why don't we just
8 say 1:00?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: How about 10 of 1:00?
10 How's that? An hour.
11 (Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., a
12 luncheon recess was taken.)
13 * * * * *
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
128
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (1:15 p.m.)
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Klayman, may I
4 clarify one thing before we start the next
5 round of questioning?
6 You raised a question about
7 conversation between Mr. Begala and Mr. Ruff
8 that we objected to on the basis of attorney
9 privilege. We will allow Mr. Begala to
10 answer the question, the specific question of
11 whether Mr. Ruff responded, which I believe
12 was the question on the table.
13 So if you want to ask that
14 question, he will answer it.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Mr. Begala?
18 A Yes, he did.
19 Q How long was his response? How
20 long did it take, the conversation?
21 A Brief. A matter of -- very few
22 minutes.
129
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
2 reflect that we are beginning at about 1:15.
3 We had hoped to begin of 10 of 1:00, but we
4 were delayed because the court reporter
5 needed to get some backup equipment.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Mr. Begala, I will take you up
8 quickly to the point where you matriculated
9 at the White House, so to speak, and were
10 going to move on to other matters.
11 You worked on the Clinton campaign.
12 You were hired. We had that testimony. And
13 during the course of that campaign, I take it
14 you worked closely with George Stephanopoulos
15 and got to know him very well?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You worked closely with your
18 partner, Mr. Carville, and got to know him
19 well?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You worked closely with Mr. Wilhelm
22 and got to know him well?
130
1 A Yes.
2 Q At what point did you get to know
3 Hillary Rodham Clinton?
4 A During the campaign.
5 Q What specifically did you work on
6 with her, if anything?
7 A Not very much. I traveled with the
8 candidate for most of the campaign, so there
9 were some occasions when Mrs. Clinton would
10 travel with us. But mostly she was off on
11 her own, as was the vice-presidential
12 candidate once he was selected.
13 Q But you got to know her pretty well
14 during that period; correct?
15 A I got to know her.
16 Q In your opinion, you have her
17 confidence?
18 A I would rather let her say that.
19 Q Does she have your confidence?
20 A She has my esteem and my
21 confidence.
22 Q Now, who on that campaign was in
131
1 charge in gathering research about opposition
2 candidates or individuals that made
3 allegations about President Clinton?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. You have
5 to lay a foundation.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: If you understand the
9 question, you can respond.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: He understands it.
11 THE WITNESS: Let me try to --
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me instruct my
13 witness, please.
14 THE WITNESS: Let me tell you what
15 I understand of that question.
16 I draw a line between research,
17 which I consider to be record research --
18 that is, public record research about public
19 issues -- and what, earlier in the day, you
20 have talked about in terms of skeletons or
21 digging up dirt. I don't believe in doing
22 that. I don't participate in doing that.
132
1 I did work with people in the
2 campaign, as in every campaign I have been
3 on, on research about the records of my
4 candidate and the other candidates in the
5 race.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Who did you work with?
8 A In the Clinton '92 campaign, I
9 don't know if he was the director of
10 research, but Eric Berman worked on research
11 in that campaign.
12 Q Who else?
13 A There were a variety of others who
14 worked on a variety of, again, not just
15 opposition research, but research about the
16 Governor and his issue positions.
17 Q Well, name them for us?
18 A In terms of the opposition, though,
19 one name I do remember is Berman. In terms
20 of his public, Clinton's own positions on
21 issues, they were -- there were numerous
22 advisors. But they were not charged with
133
1 researching the records of others.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: The court reporter
3 needs to go off the record for one second.
4 (Discussion off the record)
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q I believe you were about ready the
7 name some other people who did research
8 during the '92 campaign.
9 A The only name that I remember
10 certainly is Eric Berman.
11 Q Were there any other lawyers that
12 were working with the campaign, outside
13 lawyers that dealt with any way in gathering
14 information about political opponents or
15 perceived adversaries?
16 A Not that I know.
17 Q Mickey Kantor, for instance?
18 A Mickey Kantor was chairman of the
19 campaign. His job was not to conduct
20 research. I believe that was his title.
21 That's my recollection.
22 Q Have you ever heard of someone by
134
1 the name of Palladino?
2 A I have heard the name.
3 Q Have you ever had contact with Mr.
4 Palladino?
5 A Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
6 Q Have you ever talked to Mr.
7 Palladino?
8 A Not to my knowledge.
9 Q Is what you are saying is, you may
10 have, but he may have been in disguise?
11 A No, sir, not to my knowledge.
12 Q What do you mean by "not to your
13 knowledge"? You know whether you have met
14 somebody.
15 A No, actually, in a quasi-public
16 life, you meet a lot of people. I want to be
17 sure that I am accurate, because this is on
18 the record, a formal, under-oath
19 conversation.
20 Q Mr. Palladino is a private
21 investigator from San Francisco, correct?
22 A I don't know that.
135
1 Q Have you learned that from reading
2 media accounts?
3 A I have heard there was a guy named
4 Palladino who was an investigator. I didn't
5 know where he was from.
6 Q Do you know if anybody by the name
7 Palladino has talked with anyone in House?
8 A Not that I know of, no, sir. I
9 don't know that.
10 Q Any lawyers of the President that
11 Mr. Palladino has talked with, to the best of
12 your knowledge?
13 A I don't know of that. Not that I
14 know of, no.
15 Q Do you know of any investigators,
16 aside from Palladino and Lenzner, that the
17 White House has used to do research on
18 perceived adversaries of the administration?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. It
20 assumes fact not in evidence.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You can respond.
136
1 A I don't know of any investigators,
2 period. I've read press accounts, but I have
3 no firsthand knowledge of any investigators.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
5 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
6 Exhibit 5.
7 (Begala Deposition Exhibit
8 No. 5 was marked for
9 identification.)
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q I'm showing you Exhibit 5. This is
12 a press account entitled, "White House Denies
13 Private Eye Affiliation: Lawyer Alleges He
14 and Wife are Being Probed," by Susan Schmidt
15 and Peter Baker, dated February 3, 1998.
16 Previously, I believe you
17 testified, correct me if I am wrong, that you
18 don't know of anyone in the White House
19 having denied that private investigators were
20 hired by either the President or of any of
21 his attorneys; is that correct?
22 A My recollection was that the White
137
1 House had, in fact, denied only that the
2 President's private counsels had hired
3 attorneys to investigate Mr. diGenova and his
4 wife or other reporters or prosecutors
5 involved in the case.
6 Q But not that they had not hired
7 private investigators?
8 A I don't recall a blanket, absolute
9 denial of that.
10 Q So there were other perceived
11 Clinton adversaries that private
12 investigators were hired to investigate?
13 A No, sir, not to my knowledge.
14 Q Can you turn to paragraph 5? See
15 if this refreshes your recollection.
16 This is Mr. McCurry's statement to
17 the press in or about February 23, 1998.
18 "No one at the White House or
19 anybody acting on behalf of the White House
20 or any of President Clinton's private
21 attorneys has hired or authorized any private
22 investigator to look into the background of
138
1 Mr. diGenova, Mr. Tennsey, investigators,
2 prosecutors, or reporters, said White House
3 press account Michael McCurry."
4 Does that refresh your
5 recollection?
6 A I don't understand the question.
7 Q Does this refresh your recollection
8 as to whether a statement was made as to
9 whether private investigators were hired to
10 investigate investigators, prosecutors, or
11 reporters?
12 A This says that no such
13 investigators were hired to investigate --
14 can I finish? -- to investigate
15 investigators, prosecutors or reporters.
16 Q Is this a correct statement?
17 A To the best of my knowledge.
18 Q Did you talk to Mr. McCurry about
19 issuing the statement before he issued it?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q What did you tell Mr. McCurry when
22 you talked to him?
139
1 A I didn't talk to him. I was on a
2 call with Mike in counsel's office, and I
3 think maybe some others from the press staff,
4 and we talked about what Mr. diGenova had
5 said on TV, an inflammatory charge.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: He is not going to
7 testify as to the substance of these
8 conversations. They're attorney-client
9 privileged.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Who is the attorney?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: The attorney is
12 counsel's office.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q What counsel was present during
15 that conversation?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: That is inappropriate
17 to break in in the middle of conversation and
18 to provide testimony. Certify this.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Was there White House counsel
21 present at this conversation?
22 A Yes, sir.
140
1 Q Who?
2 A Mr. Ruff is my recollection.
3 Q And who was providing the
4 information as to whether investigators had
5 been hired?
6 MR. ANDERSON: I also want to say,
7 Mr. Klayman, this has absolutely nothing to
8 do with the FBI files matter, let alone the
9 substance of your lawsuit, which was in 1993
10 and 1994.
11 You are very far afield here.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if you have
13 read the pleadings, sir, you will see that we
14 are alleging that the damage is continuing
15 and that the FBI files continue to be used.
16 MR. ANDERSON: Well, get to the
17 point.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: That is what I am
19 doing, and I prefer that you not have
20 righteous indignation interrupting my
21 deposition, sir.
22 MR. ANDERSON: I was stating an
141
1 objection.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: You are a member of
3 the Department of Justice. You should be
4 more concerned than me about this.
5 MR. ANDERSON: I don't need to be
6 lectured by you, Mr. Klayman.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't need to be
8 lectured by you.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Who was providing the information
11 during that conversation?
12 A If I could take a break for a
13 moment?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Off the record for
15 one minute, please.
16 (Discussion off the record)
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Who provided that information?
19 A If you could restate? What
20 information?
21 Q Who provided the information that
22 gave rise to Mr. McCurry's statement during
142
1 the conversation?
2 A My recollection is that Mr. Ruff
3 did.
4 Q During that conversation, was there
5 any discussion of FBI files?
6 A No, sir. Not to my knowledge or
7 recollection.
8 Q Are you aware that prior to making
9 that statement, the statement that was made
10 by Mr. McCurry that was discussed during the
11 conversation that you have just identified,
12 that Mr. Kendall and Mr. Bennett both said
13 that they had not hired private investigators
14 to investigate the personal lives of
15 prosecutors, investigators, or the members of
16 the press?
17 A Did you say prior or subsequent?
18 Q Were you aware at the time of that
19 conversation?
20 A No, sir, not that I have
21 recollection.
22 Q Have you since become aware of
143
1 that?
2 A I recall subsequently learning that
3 Mr. Kendall and Mr. Bennett issued statements
4 to that effect.
5 Q And those statements, to the best
6 of your knowledge, are not true, are they?
7 A I have no idea whether it is true.
8 That is up to them.
9 Q Based upon your knowledge?
10 A I have no knowledge of any
11 investigators or, again, I want to state for
12 the record, nor do I have any knowledge
13 whatsoever about the use or misuse of FBI
14 files.
15 Q Based upon what Mr. Ruff told you,
16 those statements by Mr. Kendall and
17 Mr. Bennett are not true, correct?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
19 I the court reporter will mark as Exhibit 6.
20 (Begala Deposition Exhibit
21 No. 6 was marked for
22 identification.)
144
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q I'm showing you Exhibit No. 6,
3 which is a press account of Peter Yost of the
4 Associated Press entitled: "Starr Strikes
5 Back at White House."
6 Turning to the second page,
7 "Clinton's lawyers David Kendall and Robert
8 Bennett -- "
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Give him time to read
10 it.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q -- "said, 'We have not investigated
13 and are not investigating the personal lives
14 of prosecutors, investigators, or members of
15 the press.' Kendall and Bennett said, 'It is
16 commonplace for private counsel to retain a
17 commercial investigative serve to perform
18 legal and appropriate tasks to assist in the
19 defense of the clients.'"
20 Did you know of such a statement
21 before you had that conversation with Mr.
22 Ruff?
145
1 A My recollection is no, that this
2 statement came subsequent.
3 Q Based upon your review of this
4 statement, is it not true that it is in
5 contradiction with what Mr. Ruff told you
6 during that telephone conversation?
7 A No, sir, that is not my
8 understanding at all.
9 Q Have you ever had conversations
10 with Mr. Kendall and Mr. Bennett?
11 A I have spoken to them.
12 Q During those conversations, have
13 you ever had discussed the FBI files matter?
14 A No, sir, not to my knowledge or
15 recollection.
16 Q So you don't remember whether you
17 have?
18 A I have no memory whatsoever of
19 discussing it. I will say again, I know
20 nothing. I have no knowledge of any use or
21 misuse of FBI files. This was a story that
22 arose when I was living in Texas. I was in
146
1 corporate and academic life, and I have not
2 followed it very closely.
3 Q Now, during the campaign, the 1992
4 campaign, I take it at some point you
5 finished with your activities on that
6 campaign, correct?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q When was that?
9 A Election day.
10 Q And what did you do then?
11 A I went fishing.
12 Q What did you do professionally?
13 A Oh. I continued in my business
14 with Mr. Carville as a political consultant.
15 Q And you continued to maintain close
16 contact with the White House, correct?
17 A With some of my friends from the
18 campaign, yes, sir.
19 Q Who did you maintain most close
20 contact with?
21 A George Stephanopoulos. Others on
22 the communications and political staffs.
147
1 Q Such as?
2 A At the time, my recollection is Dee
3 Dee Myers and Mark Gearan were two
4 communications and press people I dealt with.
5 Q You continued to provide advice
6 from time to time?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And you had access so the White
9 House, correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q You never had a security pass, but
12 you did have access, correct?
13 A No, sir. No, sir.
14 Q You had a temporary pass?
15 A Yes, I had a pass. I don't know
16 how to categorize it.
17 Q But it was not a permanent pass?
18 A I don't understand the distinction.
19 I don't know if it was permanent or temporary
20 or what. But I did have a pass.
21 Q During that period of time, did you
22 become aware of whether anyone in the White
148
1 House was conducting research into perceived
2 adversaries of the Clinton administration?
3 A No, sir. Again, by "research," I
4 mean not public record of speeches,
5 statements, votes on the Hill. That sort of
6 work goes on all the time. It is part of the
7 political process and having a public debate
8 about issues.
9 If by that, again, you mean what
10 you referred to at the beginning of our
11 session by talking about skeletons or dirt,
12 no, none of us were ever -- if I can finish.
13 I wanted to impress upon you the
14 distinction that I draw in my professional
15 life, and on which I take some pride in my
16 integrity, that there is a vast difference
17 between the public record, which I think is
18 what we ought to be arguing about in
19 politics, and investigating, digging up dirt
20 on other people's private lives, which I do
21 not participate in, or do not have knowledge
22 of.
149
1 And once more, I wanted to say --
2 it is important for the record -- that I have
3 no knowledge whatsoever of any use or misuse
4 of FBI files.
5 Q Based on your knowledge as an
6 attorney and your experience as an
7 attorney --
8 A I have never practiced law. I
9 wouldn't hold myself out as an attorney. I
10 have a law degree.
11 Q Court files are generally public
12 record, are they not?
13 A Court files of what sort, sir?
14 Q Of the particular lawsuit?
15 A They may be. I don't know. I have
16 never tried a case. I have never been sued.
17 I've never sued anyone.
18 Q Public records may contain
19 information which is quite negative with
20 regard to a particular individual; correct?
21 A I don't know. I have never
22 participated in a lawsuit before.
150
1 Q For instance, divorce files may
2 contain very negative information about
3 someone. And that can constitute digging up
4 dirt, can't it?
5 A Yes, I suppose so.
6 Q So you can use information in the
7 public domain to acquire dirt about someone,
8 correct?
9 A No, sir, I have never used
10 anybody's divorce records in a campaign. I
11 believe in running campaigns on public
12 record, on the issues. I pride myself in
13 being quite a zealous defender and advocate
14 for my issues and my candidates. But I draw
15 a bright line between public record and
16 personal matters.
17 Q During the course of your period of
18 staying in contact with the Clinton White
19 House after the '92 campaign, you did have
20 discussions from time to tile with Hillary
21 Clinton, did you not?
22 A Say again?