251 1 rights at staff meetings, does she not? 2 A In my six months, I can't recall a 3 time she walked into a staff meeting. I 4 don't know what rights she has or what that 5 means. But I can't recall a time that -- 6 Q You consult with her from time to 7 time currently, don't you, with regard to a 8 spin that you are giving on a particular 9 story? 10 A Not often. I see her from time to 11 time. 12 Q On what occasions do you see hear? 13 A Social primarily. I saw her about 14 ten days ago at a basketball game. I 15 obviously saw her for the state dinner. 16 Q Was that the basketball game that 17 Vernon Jordan was with the President at 18 Georgetown? 19 A No, it was at the MCI center. It 20 was a Bulls game. Hillary is from Chicago. 21 Q Was there any discussion about 22 whether it was a good idea to have the two of 252 1 them together under the current 2 circumstances? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you hold on a 4 second please? 5 (Counsel conferred with 6 witness) 7 THE WITNESS: Could you restate the 8 question for me? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Was there any discussion at the 11 White House as to whether that was wise, 12 legally, for the two of them to be together 13 at a Georgetown basketball game? 14 A There was some brief discussion. 15 It was Chicago Washington. 16 Q Who engaged in that discussion? 17 A I went to the game and one of the 18 other White House staffers that went was Rahm 19 Emanuel. We discussed it very briefly. 20 Q In fact both of you thought it was 21 not a wise idea? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: He is not going to go 253 1 into the substance -- 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Between the two advisors, not with 4 regard to the President. 5 You and Mr. Emanuel both thought 6 that was not a good idea? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Reiterate an 8 objection, it has nothing to do with the FBI 9 files in this matter. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 11 THE WITNESS: It has nothing to do 12 with the FBI files. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 14 MS. PAXTON: If you are going to 15 start getting off into something very 16 different, we will slow down this deposition. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: It follows the course 18 of conduct. 19 MS. PAXTON: We will need to take 20 a break. 21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off 22 video record at 3:04. 254 1 (Discussion off the record) 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video 3 record at 3:08. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did you and Mr. Emanuel express 6 your opinion, either one of you or both, that 7 having a President at the Georgetown 8 basketball game with Vern Jordan was a bad 9 idea? 10 A I will express my personal opinion, 11 which at the time, and today is, the heck 12 with it. These guys ought to be able to have 13 a life. They were not going to do anything 14 inappropriate. If Vernon wanted to stop by 15 and see his friend, that was fine by me. 16 That was a personal view that I expressed at 17 that time. 18 Q But the two -- you did express 19 concern with Mr. Emanuel, did you not, that 20 the two could be sharing testimony at that 21 meeting, correct, on the Lewinsky matter? 22 A No, sir. The topic came up. I 255 1 said if this guy wants to stop by and say 2 hello to his friend, they ought to have some 3 kind of life despite the harassment that they 4 are subject to. That is my strong view. 5 I didn't think it was inappropriate 6 for a friend to tell a friend hello at a ball 7 game. 8 Q Was the concern expressed that it 9 could be perceived as an opportunity for the 10 two of them to communicate, to synchronize 11 testimony? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q There was no concern? 14 A The concern was more what political 15 critics would say. But a brief hello, at a 16 ball game, between friends of many decades, 17 standing, ought to be allowed even if in 18 America at the end of 20th century, the 19 bizarre world that we live in. 20 That was my view and obviously out 21 of sync with your own sense of political 22 judgment, and it may have been politically 256 1 wrong, but I don't regret it. The guy ought 2 to have some tiny bit of a life still, 3 despite that he is President. 4 Q But you discussed it with Emanuel? 5 A I discussed it longer with you than 6 I did with Emanuel. He ought to have a right 7 to say hello to his pal at the ball game. 8 Q He should be allowed to talk about 9 the testimony in the Lewinsky case? 10 MS. PAXTON: Objection. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that your view? 13 MR. ANDERSON: This has nothing to 14 do with the FBI files -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: It deals with the 16 state of mind, the course of conduct -- 17 MR. ANDERSON: Whose state of mind? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe your state of 19 mind, given the way you have been behaving 20 here. 21 MR. ANDERSON: Move on to relevant 22 things. This is a time limited deposition. 257 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not the 2 primary counsel here. I would ask you not to 3 interrupt. 4 MR. ANDERSON: You are wasting our 5 time. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to get 7 into kid's games with you, sir. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Have you ever heard of someone by 10 the name of Dennis Casey? 11 A Yes, sir, I have heard that name. 12 Q When did you first hear of that 13 name? 14 A I think he was around in 15 Pennsylvania politics, when I was working for 16 Bob Casey, the former Governor. 17 Q Is he related to Bob Casey? 18 A Not that I know of. 19 Q Is Dennis Casey an honest man, in 20 your opinion? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 22 relevancy of somebody's reputation, unrelated 258 1 to this matter. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Are you worked with him? 4 A Not that I can remember. 5 Q Have you ever had contact with him? 6 A Not that I can remember. I may 7 have. I know the name of from Pennsylvania 8 politics, but I don't recall working with 9 him. 10 Q Does he have a bad reputation in 11 terms of honesty? 12 A I don't want to vouch for his 13 reputation. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You have worked in Pennsylvania 17 politics. You talked about Wofford and Casey, 18 right, so you did come in contact with 19 Mr. Dennis Casey in that context? 20 A I heard the name. I can't tell you 21 whether I ever came in contact. You just 22 asked me if I heard that name. I heard that 259 1 name in Pennsylvania politics. I am not 2 willing to vouch for him in any way because I 3 would not recognize him if walked in the 4 door. 5 Q Are you ware that he gave testimony 6 before the Government Reform and Oversight 7 Committee in the Filegate matter? 8 A No, sir, I'm not. 9 Q I will show you what I ask the 10 reporter to mark as Exhibit 11. 11 (Begala Deposition Exhibit 12 No. 11 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q I show you a copy of Exhibit 11 16 which is the testimony of Dennis Casey of 17 June 26, 1996 before the Government Reform 18 and Oversight Committee. 19 I ask you, Mr. Begala, to take a 20 look at it. It is very short, only two 21 pages. Read it quickly. 22 A Can I ask you who he is and what 260 1 his background is? 2 Q Read that. 3 A This will say that? 4 Q Mm-hum. 5 MS. PAXTON: Is this the entire 6 testimony, Mr. Klayman? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: To the best of my 8 knowledge, but I don't know. I don't think 9 so, actually, it is an excerpt. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Klayman, is the 11 cover page attached? Are you certain that 12 that is the correct cover page? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Because what is 15 inside looks to be a deposition, not a 16 hearing. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: They attached certain 18 testimony. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: This is an attachment 20 to the hearing transcript? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 261 1 Q Does that refresh your recollection 2 about Dennis Casey? 3 A Not much. I didn't work in 4 Pennsylvania back in 1984, I was working in 5 Texas. 6 Q Tell me what little bit it 7 refreshes? 8 A I recall a guy, I thought he was a 9 reporter or commentator or pundit from 10 western Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, with the 11 name of Dennis Casey. I can't recall 12 anything else. 13 He says he is a political 14 consultant out there. I have no recollection 15 of ever working with him or I didn't work in 16 that campaign, in that state, at that time. 17 Q Does it refresh your recollection 18 with regard to Mr. Livingstone and his 19 activities in Pennsylvania? 20 A No, sir. I wasn't aware of any of 21 those things. 22 Q Do you know Page Reese? 262 1 A I don't think so. The name does 2 not ring a bell. 3 Q Dan Calegari, C-a-l-e-g-a-r-i? 4 A I remember a Dan Calegari working 5 for Congressman Gephardt in New Hampshire in 6 1987, 1988. 7 Q On page 471 of the exhibit I just 8 showed you, it says: "At that point I 9 approached my co-director, Dan Calegari," who 10 I will deviate from the statement for a 11 moment, is from Hill, New Hampshire, as I 12 recall. 13 Is that the Dan Calegari that you 14 know? 15 A It may be the same guy. I have a 16 recollection of a guy named Calegari who 17 worked for Congressman Gephardt in the 18 presidential campaign. I thought it was New 19 Hampshire. I could be wrong but that is the 20 recollection I have. 21 Q Have you ever heard of Ron Klink, 22 K-l-i-n-k? 263 1 A I have heard of Congressman Klink. 2 Q Have you ever worked for him? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Have you ever heard of a Billy 5 Shore? 6 A Yes, I know Bill Shore. He is the 7 head of Share Our Strength. He does good 8 work. 9 Q Have you ever worked with him in 10 conjunction with Pennsylvania politics? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q Have you ever been worked against 13 him? 14 A Not that I -- well, in '92, when I 15 worked for Governor Clinton, Billy for a 16 brief time was running Bob Carey's campaign. 17 In fact, Billy was one of the people Carville 18 and I met with when he were trying to decide 19 which presidential campaign to sign on with. 20 I have high admiration for Billy 21 Shore. I know him and like him. The other 22 people I don't know particularly. 264 1 Q When you were consulting in the 2 Clinton-Gore campaign in 1992, who was 3 responsible for hiring decisions on that 4 campaign? 5 A I would think it would be the 6 campaign manager, Dave Wilhelm. 7 Q Anyone else? 8 A I am sure he had people working 9 under him. Carville and I were consultants, 10 so we didn't hire and fire people on the 11 campaign stuff. 12 Q You were also a consultant I take 13 it on 1996 campaign? 14 A No, sir. Well, for a brief period 15 of time. I left Washington in '95 and did 16 not work in that campaign. 17 Q Have you ever met Dick Morris? 18 A Once in 1995. 19 Q What was the occasion of meeting 20 him? 21 A Carville and I were pitching a guy, 22 Bob Del Tufo, a U.S. attorney who wanted to 265 1 run for Governor ever New Jersey. He kind of 2 dropped out, but I remember Del Tufo. He is 3 a good guy. 4 Q Is that the only time you talked to 5 Dick Morris? 6 A Yes, sir. To my knowledge. 7 Q Are you aware of anyone in the 8 White House who talked to Dick Morris about 9 the Filegate matter? 10 A Not to my knowledge, no, sir. I 11 don't have any knowledge of the Filegate 12 matter. 13 Q Does the White House have 14 possession of a copy or the original of the 15 diary of Shari Rowlands, his girlfriend? 16 A I have no idea. 17 Q Have you ever heard of such a 18 diary? 19 A I don't know. I was not working in 20 that campaign. I remember a scandal 21 involving Mr. Morris and a woman by that 22 name. 266 1 Q Have you ever met William Kennedy, 2 the White House counsel's office? 3 A Yes, I have. 4 Q When did you meet him? 5 A When he worked at the White House. 6 Q Did you ever discuss FBI files with 7 him? 8 A No, sir, not to my knowledge. 9 Q Did you ever discuss Livingstone 10 with him? 11 A No, sir, not to my knowledge. 12 Q Marceca? 13 A Can I -- let me finish my -- 14 Q I didn't realize you were not 15 finished. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Begala is very 17 soft spoken. I think you have to pause a 18 moment to be sure he is finished with his 19 answer, before you ask your next question. 20 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge 21 or recollection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 267 1 Q Are you soft spoken? 2 A I am taking this enormously 3 seriously. I have never been deposed before. 4 I take it with the utmost gravity. I like to 5 have fun and I like to go on TV and do 6 combat. 7 I am quite frustrated, though, at 8 seeing the legal system turned over to what I 9 think is a political battle. 10 Q You are frustrated at people 11 bringing matters to try to find out whether 12 there is corruption in government? Does that 13 frustrate you? Are you if in favor of that? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You believe that there should be 16 integrity in government? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you believe the President should 19 tell the truth? 20 A I believe the President has told 21 the truth. 22 Q Do you believe the President should 268 1 tell the truth? 2 A Of course. And I believe he has. 3 I am very proud to say that publicly. 4 Q Are you saying he has always told 5 the truth? 6 A Certainly to the best of my 7 knowledge. We all make mistakes in life. I 8 tell my mother-in-law I like her chili when 9 it is almost inedible. 10 Q Are you saying the President is 11 inedible? 12 A Even he couldn't eat my 13 mother-in-law's chili. I am sorry, it is 14 God-awful. 15 MS. PAXTON: This is for the 16 record, Paul. 17 THE WITNESS: I know. I am sorry, 18 I don't mean to be flip. Jokes got me here 19 in the first place. I need to temper my 20 tongue. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever appeared in 269 1 Politically Incorrect? 2 A Not, I have not. I was invited 3 once when they were running an ad that mocked 4 President Reagan for having Alzheimer's. I 5 lost my grandfather to that disease. They 6 dropped that ad right away. I had a 7 particular problem with that. 8 Q Have you ever recommended any 9 candidates for jobs in the White House, 10 during the Clinton administration? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Who did you recommend? 13 A Most recently, I remember, Lindsey 14 Thomas is a former Congressman from Georgia 15 who was already in the works to be appointed 16 as some kind of a rivers commission. He is a 17 great conservationist and outdoorsman. I put 18 in a good word for him. 19 Q Did you ever put in a good word for 20 Mr. Livingstone? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q Do you know where Mr. Livingstone 270 1 is today? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q Have you become aware that he is in 4 Laguna Beach, California working for a DNC 5 donor? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q You did not know that? 8 A No, sir I did not know that. 9 Q Do you think whether Mr. Carville 10 ever recommended Mr. Livingstone for 11 employment? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Do you know whether Mr. Carville 14 knows Mr. Livingstone? 15 A I don't know that. 16 Q You don't know one way or the 17 other? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Same question with regard to 20 Mr. Marceca? 21 A Right, I don't know. 22 Q Has the First Lady ever discussed 271 1 personnel matters with you or anyone else to 2 your knowledge? 3 A Not to my knowledge. I am trying 4 to think. If you could be more specific, I 5 could try to be more helpful. 6 Q Has she ever discussed hiring and 7 firing anyone with you? 8 A I can't recall it, no, sir. As a 9 general matter I have not known her to 10 involve herself in those kinds of decisions. 11 Q Did you ever meet Vince Foster? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q When did you meet Vince Foster? 14 A When he worked at the White House. 15 Q Did you ever have any dealings with 16 Vince Foster at the White House? 17 A I met him. I didn't work on any 18 issues with him, that I can recall. 19 Q Did you ever discuss anything with 20 him? 21 A I have had conversations with him. 22 Q What conversations did you have? 272 1 A I can't recall now. I mean I 2 didn't know him very well. 3 Q Did you ever discuss 4 Mr. Livingstone or Mr. Marceca with Vince 5 Foster? 6 A Not to my knowledge. 7 Q Did you ever discuss FBI files with 8 Mr. Foster? 9 A No, sir, not to my knowledge. 10 Q Is that no or not to your 11 knowledge? 12 A Well, both. 13 Q That is one of the rare times you 14 said no. 15 A The story didn't come out until I 16 was living in Texas and Vince was dead. So I 17 am very certain I never discussed it with 18 Vince because I never even heard about it 19 until he had been dead for three years. 20 Q Did you ever discuss a matter 21 called Travelgate did with Vince Foster? 22 A Not that I can recall. I remember 273 1 from clippings that that was something that 2 he had worked on. I remember him being 3 involved in that. 4 Q Did you ever have any discussions 5 with anyone at the White House or elsewhere 6 about an FBI investigation of Billy Ray Dale, 7 the head of the travel office? 8 A No, sir. I remember when that 9 happened I was traveling the day that that 10 story broke. I remember talking to Dee Dee 11 Myers. Her saying that there is this huge 12 story out there because we fired the staff of 13 the travel office. I remember thinking, 14 obviously wrongly in hindsight, why is that a 15 story? Why are they writing about that? 16 Q Did you ask Dee Dee that? 17 A I made the comment it didn't strike 18 me as a very big story. I remember that 19 because I was obviously wrong. 20 Q What did Dee Dee Myers tell you 21 about why that is a big story? 22 A She just said believe me, it is a 274 1 big story. I was traveling in upstate New 2 York. I didn't work on it. I remember that 3 phone conversation because one of the many 4 times my political judgment has been errant. 5 Q What was your position, if any, at 6 the time that you discussed that with Dee Dee 7 Myers? Who were you working -- 8 A Political consultant. 9 Q With access to the White House? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q During that period of time, how 12 frequently did you visit the White House? 13 A I don't remember what time that 14 was. 15 Q Roughly speaking? 16 A At the very beginning of the 17 President's term I went there a good bit, 18 particularly to help pass the President's 19 economic plan, sell that to the public. 20 Q What was the relative frequency per 21 week? 22 A When I was working on the economic 275 1 plan I was there, I would bet, nearly 2 everyday. 3 Q Did there come a point in time when 4 the frequency of your visits declined? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q When was that? 7 A As other obligations to other 8 clients and elections took me away, in both 9 '93, when I told you we did a campaign in 10 Greece, I did Governor Florio's campaign, I 11 forgot these this morning. Jim Florio of New 12 Jersey, I did his campaign in '93 and spent a 13 good deal of time in New Jersey and not very 14 much in the White House. 15 In '94 I worked for Senator Wofford 16 in Pennsylvania and Governor Miller in 17 Georgia. So there were stretches where I was 18 not around very often. 19 But, particularly in helping to 20 sell the public on the President's position 21 on the economic plan, and the health care 22 reform proposal, I was there a fair amount. 276 1 Q Did you ever visit the office of 2 personnel security since you have been either 3 a consultant or an employee of the White 4 House? 5 A I can't remember it, no, sir. 6 Q Have you ever seen documents in and 7 around the White House that were labeled FBI 8 files? 9 A No, sir, I never have. To the best 10 of my knowledge and recollection. 11 Q Have you ever had discussions with 12 anyone over what documents were taken out of 13 Vince foster's office after he died? 14 A Not that I can remember, sir. 15 Q So you may have had discussions? 16 A It was political controversy, but 17 it was not one that I played a particular 18 leading role in. 19 Q Were FBI files taken in his office? 20 A I have no idea what, if anything. 21 Q Did you hear any rumors to that 22 effect? 277 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Let him finish his 2 answer before you ask the next question. 3 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what, 4 if anything, might have been taken out of 5 Mr. Foster's office after he died. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you heard anyone say FBI files 8 were taken out? 9 A I can't remember that specifically. 10 Q It may have been said? 11 A Certainly, lots of things get said. 12 Q Who would have said it? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. He didn't 14 testify that anybody said it. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know who 16 might have said it. I mean -- you might have 17 said it. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you ever discuss Vince Foster's 20 documentation with Bernee Nusbaum? 21 A Documentation? I don't understand. 22 Q Documentation in his office on the 278 1 day that he died? 2 A Not that I can remember, no, sir. 3 Q Did you ever discuss it with Maggie 4 Williams? 5 A Not that I can remember, no, sir. 6 Q Did you ever discuss Vince Foster 7 where Maggie Williams after he died? 8 A I don't remember specific 9 conversation, but people at the White House 10 were very upset after Vince died. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: I will insert another 12 relevancy objection, that we are way off our 13 field here. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you ever discuss Mr. Foster 16 with Hillary Clinton after he died? 17 A I can't remember doing so but I 18 can't rule it out, either. 19 If I can elaborate. I was not an 20 Arkansan, so I was not intimately familiar 21 with Vince. 22 I liked him. I knew him somewhat. 279 1 In particularly in the '92 campaign, I was on 2 the plane, so those few people on the plane I 3 got to know quite well. The rest of the 4 folks in Arkansas, I didn't get to know as 5 well as others in the campaign may have 6 because my job was to be 30,000 feet above 7 the air, above the ground. 8 Q Did you ever meet Webb Hubbell? 9 A I must have met him in the 10 campaign, because he was around. But I don't 11 remember meeting him this the campaign. 12 Q Have you ever discussed whether Web 13 Hubbell had access to FBI filings? 14 A No, sir, not to my knowledge. 15 Q You don't remember? 16 A I don't remember any such 17 conversations. 18 Q Has the First Lady ever mentioned 19 Craig Livingstone to you? 20 A Not that I can recall, but she may 21 be in a political context, some of the 22 charges that have been leveled. I couldn't 280 1 rule it out, but I can't remember a specific 2 conversation. 3 Q What political context? 4 A There are political charges that 5 have been made, including some from you, 6 about Mr. Livingstone. 7 Q Did you discuss that with her? 8 A I can't rule it out. I don't have 9 a specific recollection but I can't rule it 10 out. 11 Q Most likely you discussed it? 12 A I can't rule it out. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Object, you are 14 mischaracterizing his testimony. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Can you rule anything out? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Can you rule out that aliens landed 19 in the west? 20 A I can rule out any knowledge of any 21 use or misuse of FBI files by anyone I ever 22 talked to or worked with. I have no 281 1 knowledge of any use or misuse of FBI files. 2 It is very important that you understand 3 that. I understand that I am on the record 4 and this is under oath. 5 Q Where did you discuss the FBI files 6 matter with Mrs. Clinton? 7 A I don't recall any discussions of 8 the FBI files matter with Mrs. Clinton. 9 Q Did you ever discuss the files 10 matter with the President? 11 A Not to the best of my knowledge. 12 Q So you may have? 13 A To the best of my knowledge. 14 Again, if I can repeat, it is an issue that 15 arose in the press. So from a political 16 standpoint, it didn't become a political 17 issue until the time I was living in Texas. 18 So I was not in very frequent 19 contact with the President of the United 20 States when I was living in Austin, Texas. 21 So I say with some certainty I have no 22 recollection of any such conversation. I 282 1 don't think that there ever would have been 2 one. 3 Q But it does arise from time to 4 time, does it not, the files matter? 5 A No, sir, not on my radar screen. I 6 don't know if it is good or bad, but there is 7 enough other things, both of a substantive 8 matter but also of a political matter that 9 occupy my time. 10 Q Are you aware the First Lady 11 recently received a subpoena from the 12 Government Reform and Oversight Committee for 13 documents? 14 A No, sir. I am not aware of that. 15 Q You are not aware of that issue? 16 A I am not. 17 Q Do you have anyone else who has? 18 A Who has what? 19 Q Dealt with this issue of the 20 subpoena from the Government Reform Oversight 21 Committee? 22 A No, sir. It is not an issue is 283 1 that I have worked on. 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off 3 video record at 3:32. 4 (Discussion off the record) 5 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going back on 6 video record at 3:33. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. Begala, as special assistant 9 counselor to the President, what are your 10 duties as special assistant? 11 A Actually assistant. 12 Q What is the distinction between 13 assistant to the President and counselor to 14 the President? 15 A That is a very good question. I am 16 teased often about the number of counselors 17 that the President has because it is a rather 18 grandiose title. 19 Q You have two roles? 20 A No, sir. It is just a nice title 21 created for David Gurgin, that is another 22 joke, but this happens to be true that I know 284 1 of, it was created when Mr. Gurgin was 2 brought on to the White House, sort of an 3 added flourish. It is a subject of some 4 derisive commentary and humor among my 5 colleagues. 6 Q You actually filled David Gurgin's 7 shoes in that role? 8 A I don't know that David or I would 9 say that. But it is analogous. 10 Q That was his slot? 11 A I don't know. It has been a long 12 time since David left. So it is not like I 13 was hired to replace him. It was an 14 analogous sort of role where I am trying to 15 take the President's policy initiatives and 16 present them to the public in a way that the 17 public finds compelling and frankly that the 18 news media will cover or report on which you 19 know is a difficult thing to do. 20 Q In addition to policy, you are also 21 dealing with the public over the scandals, 22 correct? 285 1 A It has fallen to me to do so, in 2 part because I have some experience of going 3 on television and in part, I hope, because 4 people in the press know that I am credible 5 and honest when I say I believe the President 6 has not done anything wrong. 7 Q In fact you told the press, made 8 public pronouncements that this is what you 9 do best, spinning these issues. 10 Is that correct? 11 A No, sir. I hope I haven't said 12 that because that is more arrogant than I 13 ought to be. 14 It is something that I have 15 experience with, unfortunately, because this 16 President, even as long back as have I known 17 him, has been subject to what I think are 18 very unfair, personal attacks. That is one 19 of the reasons that I think I have such a 20 strong belief that people ought to focus on 21 the public record. 22 Because as a matter of strategy as 286 1 well as morality, I have seen Bill Clinton 2 attacked for allegations of his private life. 3 Yet he wins and wins and wins. You think 4 that the political marketplace would not 5 reward, does not reward that type of behavior 6 so people would learn. 7 So I have, by dint of experience, 8 learned that the best way to answer these 9 issues actually is to talk about the public 10 record, the things that you are working on 11 and doing. 12 Q When you worked on in the 1992 13 campaign, did you formulate a strategy to 14 deal with Jennifer Flowers? Did you 15 participate in that? 16 A I participated in that. 17 Q What did you do? 18 A We fought like hell, excuse me 19 language, that is actually the phrase that I 20 remember the Governor using. We fought back 21 hard. We were not going to just take its 22 lying down. He had a set of ideas that he 287 1 believed in. He said over and over, if I 2 make this about my your life and not mine, we 3 will both come out of this better. 4 I still believe that is why the 5 American people support this President. 6 Q You helped formulate the public 7 pronouncements that Bill Clinton had not had 8 an affair with Jennifer flowers? 9 A To the best of my recollection he 10 said had her allegations were not true. 11 Q You helped formulate that? 12 A I helped explicate it, I helped 13 broadcast it. The formulation obviously came 14 from the Governor. 15 Q Are you aware of the testimony that 16 President Clinton gave to the lawyers in the 17 Paula Jones case? Are you aware of what is 18 in the testimony? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. This 20 witness cannot answer questions about any 21 about matter that is currently before the 22 grand jury in a separate investigation. 288 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Why is that? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Because there is a 3 separate grand jury investigation with 4 respect to that. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Why can't he answer 6 questions. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Because there is -- 8 there are questions of privilege he is not 9 authorized to waive. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I just asked whether 11 he was aware, not where it came from, if he 12 was aware of what had been testified to in 13 the Jones case with regard to Jennifer 14 Flowers. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Could you repeat 16 that? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Are you aware of what was testified 19 to by the President in the Jones case 20 concerning Jennifer Flowers? 21 MS. PAXTON: What possible 22 relevance is this to the FBI files matter? 289 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Deals with his 2 credibility. 3 MS. PAXTON: Who? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Begala. 5 MS. PAXTON: How? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not going to 7 tell you on the record. I know you would 8 love to know. 9 MS. PAXTON: If you can connect 10 them up, I don't see it is relevant. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I will give you a 12 break hear. I don't generally do this but, 13 because I want to be courteous, I will do it 14 for you this one last time. 15 Obviously it has been reported that 16 the President testified that he did have an 17 affair with Jennifer Flowers. Mr. Begala was 18 spewing forth information on the President's 19 behalf in 1992 denying it. That is the 20 relevance, in terms of his own credibility. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: We object on the 22 grounds of relevance. We don't think that is 290 1 any kind of a valid kind of reason for taking 2 his testimony. But he can answer the 3 question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Are you aware of what the President 6 testified to with regard to Jennifer Flowers 7 in the Jones case? 8 A I have no first hand knowledge of 9 the President's testimony. I have read press 10 accounts. Those press accounts actually 11 have, that I have seen, I remember something 12 in Time magazine, that said, what the 13 President had said, which is that he told the 14 truth in 1992 and he told the truth more 15 recently under oath, and I am comfortable 16 with that. 17 Q The two statements are A, I didn't 18 have an affair, and B, I did have an affair. 19 A That is not my understanding of the 20 press coverage. 21 Q If you were to learn that the 22 President did have an affair with Jennifer 291 1 Flowers -- 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Object, hypothetical. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Would you, based on your experience 5 and based on your public position, correct it 6 on the record, with the press? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 8 hypothetical. 9 THE WITNESS: Based on my 10 experience with the press, I never deal with 11 hypotheticals. I have learned -- 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q I am asking you a hypothetical 14 myself. You are in a court proceeding now. 15 MS. PAXTON: He is not required to 16 answer hypotheticals. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What I'm testing, Mr. Begala, is 19 your truthfulness and veracity. 20 MS. PAXTON: You are testing his 21 ability to guess and he is not required under 22 oath to guess. 292 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Let's assume that it was determined 3 that President Clinton, based on his own 4 testimony, did have an affair with Jennifer 5 Flowers. 6 By virtue of your position as 7 assistant to the President and counselor to 8 the President who deals with the press, would 9 you feel duty bound to correct that with the 10 press? 11 MS. PAXTON: Again, that question 12 is objectionable. You are asking him to 13 answer a hypothetical -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not counsel 15 of record, Ms. Paxton. Please do not 16 interrupt. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: I assert the same 18 relevancy objection that he is not required 19 to answer hypotheticals. Your role is to ask 20 him questions about his knowledge. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: My role is also to 22 test whether what we have here is a person 293 1 who, as an ordinary course, either tells the 2 truth or corrects things when he find out 3 what the truth is. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I want to know, Mr. Begala, if you 6 learned that the President testified that 7 there was an affair with Jennifer Flowers, 8 would you feel duty bound by virtue of your 9 public position to correct that with the 10 press? 11 A I have no knowledge of the 12 President's testimony. I have seen news 13 coverage, and I have seen public statements 14 from the President, that he testified 15 truthfully a few months ago, whenever that 16 testimony was, that -- let me finish, that he 17 spoke truthfully in 1992. 18 I am not free to speculate about 19 what feelings and emotions I might have if 20 something else happened. I am just not able 21 to do that. 22 Q I am asking you to assume for 294 1 purposes of this question, this is a legal 2 proceeding, not spinning the press -- 3 MS. SHAPIRO: This is an improper 4 question for an a legal proceeding. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: It is not an improper 6 question. 7 MS. PAXTON: It is an improper 8 question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Please do not 10 interrupt. Be fortunate that you are sitting 11 here. Please do not interrupt. There is 12 counsel here. You are not counsel of record. 13 Taxpayers money is not to be used to defend 14 Mr. Begala out of the White House. So please 15 sit here and allow counsel, who is in charge 16 of that task, to do it, Ms. Shapiro. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: I am inserting an 18 objection to an improper form of question. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: But you don't have a 20 right to ask him not to answer -- 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Under the Federal 22 rules of civil procedure, only experts can 295 1 answer hypothetical questions. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: This is not a trial. 3 If it comes to a trial the judge will be able 4 to rule on your objection. I am entitled to 5 an answer right now. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q My question is, Mr. Begala; it is a 8 given that the President did not tell the 9 truth, that he had no affair with -- 10 A No, sir, I can't accept that 11 assumption. I cannot accept an assumption 12 that I believe and know to be false. 13 Q Let's take the President out of it. 14 Let's take Lewinsky out of it. Let's take 15 Flowers out of it. 16 Let's talk about in the course of 17 your duties at the White House, if you 18 learned that material information was 19 provided to press which later turned out to 20 be untrue, and that information could have a 21 negative effect on the presidency, would you 22 correct it yourself with the press? 296 1 A That is a hypothetical. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Give us one moment to 3 see if we will instruct the witness or not. 4 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off 5 video record at 3:43. 6 (Discussion off the record) 7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video 8 record at 3:48. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: I think we can avoid 10 problems over hypotheticals. I will let the 11 witness answer questions that go to his 12 general practice. If you can formulate the 13 question in that way. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q If, in the course of your duties 16 and responsibilities at the White House, you 17 learned that material information which you 18 provided to the press was incorrect, and if a 19 correction of that information would harm the 20 presidency, would you still release it to the 21 press? 22 A The presidency as an institution? 297 1 Q The President. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the 3 hypothetical. I'm not sure -- was there an 4 agreement that you would phrase this -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not going to 6 stipulate to you on a question. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: It is an objection to 8 the form of the question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: All of these things 10 as you may or may not know Ms. Shapiro, if my 11 question is improperly phrased or improper 12 legally, it will never come into evidence at 13 any trial. You have that right. 14 The only objection you have to 15 register right now is objection as to form. 16 Your objection as to substance under the 17 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are 18 preserved. 19 This is discovery. I am entitled 20 to get his state of mind, his course of 21 conduct and those types of things. 22 MS. ZIEGLER: That is a form 298 1 objection, just for the record. She was 2 objecting. That is a proper objection she 3 needs to make now. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: That is fine, make 5 it. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: We can avoid disputes 7 about this sort of thing and in cooperation 8 if you can phrase your questions in terms of 9 general practice. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I am. But I will ask 11 the questions that I want to not the way you 12 want. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q If the this course of your duties 15 and responsibilities in the White House, you 16 learned of information that has been provided 17 to the press that turns out to be inaccurate; 18 do you feel duty bound to correct that with 19 the press? 20 A As a matter of general conduct, 21 yes. Any good press person would want to 22 maintain his or her own credibility and 299 1 integrity and the public's right to accurate 2 information. 3 Q You would make that correction even 4 if it had a negative impact on the President? 5 A Over time, it is worse, far more 6 negative impact, is if inaccurate information 7 is out there, so yes. As the general course 8 of practice, yes. 9 Q Has anyone ever directed you at the 10 White House not to make a correction of 11 inaccurate information? 12 A Not that I can recall, no, sir. 13 Q So you don't know one way or the 14 other? You can't remember? 15 A I am saying to the best of my 16 recollection, the answer is no. 17 Q Why is it when I ask you tough 18 question all of the sudden the best of your 19 recollection pops into the question? 20 A Because I am acutely aware I am 21 under oath. I wanted to be as completely and 22 fully accurate as I can be while still being 300 1 cooperative. 2 Q When you say to the best of your 3 recollection, does that mean your mind can 4 temporarily go blank? 5 A No. It mean at this moment in time 6 I am searching my memory and cannot recall a 7 single time anyone has asked me to do so. I 8 think that is only fair that I am under oath. 9 Q If you were to learn that, in fact, 10 Governor Clinton did have an affair with 11 Jennifer Flowers, would you feel duty bound 12 to correct that, currently? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 14 hypothetical. Relevancy. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Yes or no? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Answer as to your 18 general practice. 19 THE WITNESS: As a general 20 practice, if inaccurate information is out 21 there, part of my obligation is to correct 22 it. I would say in the instance you used for
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