425 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 3 -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Tuesday, June 1, 1999 12 Continued deposition of 13 TERRY W. GOOD 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 10:15 a.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary 20 public in and for the District of Columbia, 21 when were present on behalf on the respective 22 parties: 426 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 4 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 5 (202) 646-5172 6 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 7 Office of the President: 8 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 9 ALLISON C. GILES, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 10 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 11 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, D.C. 20004 12 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 14 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 15 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 16 (202) 434-5175 17 On behalf of The White House: 18 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 19 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 20 (202) 456-5079 21 22 427 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Deponent: 3 THOMAS C. GREEN, ESQUIRE PAUL HAMMERSBAUGH, ESQUIRE 4 Sidley & Austin 1722 I Street N.W. 5 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 736-8538 6 7 ALSO PRESENT: 8 Thomas Fitton 9 10 * * * * * 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 428 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 4 Counsel for Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation 5 and Executive Office of the President 6 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: 7 Counsel for Plaintiffs 8 *Proceedings transcribed at pages 764 to 776 9 designated CONFIDENTIAL and bound separately per reqeust 10 GOOD DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 11 No. 1 - Deposition Notice, Attachment 433 12 No. 2 - [Not Identified] 437 13 No. 3 - [Not Identified] 437 14 No. 4 - Room 563 Sign-In Log 438 15 No. 5 - [Not Identified] 464 16 No. 6 - June 30, 1998, Deposition 465 17 Transcript 18 No. 7 - Transcript Errata Sheet 494 19 No. 8 - [Not Identified] 534 20 No. 9 - Affidavit 538 21 No. 10 - Paxton Declaration 549 22 No. 11 - [Not Identified] 565 429 1 GOOD DEPOSITION EXHIBITS (CONT'D): PAGE 2 No. 12 - Memorandum, Good to Mussolino 606 3 No. 13 - Memorandum Re Room 563 621 4 No. 15 - Memorandum for the Record 623 5 No. 16 - Search Query Report 628 6 No. 17 - Room 520 Sign-In Log 630 7 No. 18 - Note, Young to Good 637 8 No. 19 - Phone Call Note 638 9 No. 20 - Published Decision 639 10 No. 21 - Article: "Scene of Filegate" 640 11 No. 22 - Article: "Hubbell Out of 641 Trouble?" 12 No. 23 - Article: "Tripp among Names" 642 13 No. 24 - Article Re Good Deposition 644 14 No. 25 - [Not Identified] 645 15 No. 26 - Ettinger Statement 669 16 No. 27 - [Not Identified] 675 17 No. 28 - [Not Identified] 680 18 No. 29 - [Not Identified] 689 19 No. 30 - [Not Identified] 690 20 No. 31 - [Not Identified] 692 21 No. 32 - [Not Identified] 693 22 430 1 GOOD DEPOSITION EXHIBITS (CONT'D): PAGE 2 No. 33 - [Not Identified] 696 3 No. 34 - "Talking Points" Memorandum 697 4 No. 35 - [Not Identified] 699 5 No. 36 - Letter, Downey to Ruff 701 6 No. 37 - [Not Identified] 706 7 No. 38 - Washington Post Column 719 8 No. 39 - [Not Identified] 720 9 No. 40 - Memorandum, Good to Taggart 734 10 No. 41 - Word Search Report 739 11 No. 42 - Willey Documentation Search 743 Report 12 No. 43 - Memorandum, Good to Peterson 746 13 No. 44 - Associated Press Article 759 14 No. 45 - Willey Files L-Z 767 15 16 17 * * * * * 18 19 20 21 22 431 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the continuing deposition of Terry 4 Good taken by the counsel for the Plaintiffs 5 in the matter of Cara Leslie Alexander et al. 6 v. Federal Bureau of Investigation et al. on 7 this date, June 1, 1999, and at the time 8 indicated on the video screen, which is 10:45 9 a.m. 10 Will counsel introduce themselves? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 12 general counsel and chairman of Judicial 13 Watch. 14 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, 15 Judicial Watch. 16 MR. GREEN: Tom Green, from the 17 firm of Sidley & Austin, here representing 18 Mr. Good. 19 MR. HEMMERSBAUGH: Paul 20 Hemmersbaugh, also with the firm of Sidley & 21 Austin, representing Terry Good. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan with 432 1 the Department of Justice, counsel for the 2 Executive Office of the President and the 3 FBI. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Sorry. Camera 5 cut off. Stand by. 6 (Discussion off the record) 7 MS. GILES: Allison Giles with the 8 Justice Department representing Defendants 9 EOP and FBI. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro 11 from the Department of Justice representing 12 the same Defendants. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 14 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 15 Lady. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: There's somebody in 17 the back row. 18 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson, 19 White House Counsel's Office. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Could we hear that? 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes. 22 Whereupon, 433 1 TERRY W. GOOD 2 was recalled as a witness and, having been 3 previously duly sworn, was examined and 4 testified as follows: 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I hope everybody had 6 a nice Memorial Day. Mr. Green, is there 7 another Tom Green at Sidley & Austin? 8 MR. GREEN: Not that I know of. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: What was the other 10 fellow's -- 11 MR. GREEN: There's a Jeff Green. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: You're with Sidley & 13 Austin, too? 14 MR. GREEN: I am, Mr. Klayman. 15 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you what 17 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 18 Exhibit 1. 19 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 1 20 was marked for identification.) 21 MR. GILLIGAN: While it's being 22 distributed, Mr. Klayman, may I ask is 434 1 Exhibit 1 the subpoena served on Mr. Good? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Well, then, let me 4 for the record provide you with a copy of our 5 response on behalf of Mr. Good in his 6 professional capacity as director of the 7 Office of Records Management. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Looking at Exhibit 1, which is your 10 notice of deposition, Mr. Good, which 11 attaches a subpoena, have you seen this 12 document before? 13 A It appears to be one that I looked 14 at, yes, before. 15 Q When did you see it? 16 A I believe I saw it on Friday last. 17 Q The Friday before Memorial Day 18 weekend? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Did you have an opportunity to 21 review the subpoena portion which attaches 22 Exhibit A which contains requests for 435 1 documents? 2 A Is that the page 5 that starts off 3 "Schedule of Documents"? 4 Q Yes, it is. 5 A Yes, I've had a chance to review 6 that. 7 Q And was anyone present when you 8 reviewed it? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Who was present? 11 A Paul Hemmersbaugh and Jeff Green of 12 Sidley & Austin. 13 Q Paul Hemmersbaugh, how is that 14 spelled? 15 A Hemmersbaugh, H-e-m-m-e-r-s- 16 b-a-u-g-h. 17 Q And Jeff Green? 18 A Jeff Green. 19 Q Not counsel here today, Tom Green? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q And did you review each and every 22 document request with them? 436 1 A Each of the 15 items that are on 2 here, is that correct? 3 Q Correct. 4 A Yes. 5 Q And are you objecting to the 6 production of any of these document requests? 7 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, on behalf 8 of Mr. Good I have a letter here which I've 9 executed as of today, June 1, 1999, which 10 contains our objections to the subpoena. 11 Unfortunately, I don't have copies of it. 12 Paul has some copies. It speaks for itself. 13 I also have some documents which we deem are 14 responsive or arguably responsive to the 15 subpoena to deliver in compliance with it. 16 There are other documents, as the letter 17 indicates, which we believe may be 18 privileged, and we are going to need more 19 time to examine those documents. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you anticipate 21 producing a privilege log for those 22 documents? 437 1 MR. GREEN: Any document which we 2 deem privileged will be identified in a 3 privilege log, yes. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that this 5 document, a letter from Sidley & Austin of 6 June 1, 1999, be made Exhibit 2, and that the 7 letter previously identified by Mr. Gilligan 8 on behalf of Mr. Good professionally be made 9 Exhibit 3. 10 (Good Deposition Exhibits Nos. 2 11 and 3 were marked for 12 identification.) 13 MR. KLAYMAN: And you're 14 representing him personally, Mr. Green? 15 MR. GREEN: That is correct. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: We can make copies of 17 these documents at the break. Can we get a 18 copy of the documents that you are producing 19 today? 20 MR. GREEN: Yes. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: We might as well just 22 take a short break here for Exhibits 2 and 3. 438 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video 2 record at 10:55. 3 (Recess) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 5 video record at 11:16. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Mr. Good, I'm going to show you the 8 documents you produced today. I will have 9 another set marked with the documents as we 10 go through them. The first document which 11 you're producing under the cover letter which 12 your counsel provided which has been marked 13 as Exhibit 2 is a sign-in form for Room 563, 14 correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that that be 17 marked as Exhibit 4. We'll just mark my copy 18 and we'll substitute. 19 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 4 20 was marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q And what is the sign-in form for 439 1 Room 563? 2 A This is a form that we used, and 3 you can see the date that appears on there, 4 January 19, '93, to show those occasions when 5 someone went into this Room 563. It shows 6 the date in one column, the time of entry in 7 the next column, the name of the Secret 8 Service official, if we were able to identify 9 them, who we contacted to say we are entering 10 Room 563. 11 The next column is the time of 12 departure, and again as with the entry we are 13 entering in this next column the name of the 14 Secret Service agent who we contacted to say 15 we are departing the room. 16 The room was alarmed, and it was 17 therefore necessary to call Secret Service 18 each time we went in and each time we left so 19 that they could either turn the alarm system 20 off while we were there or turn it back on 21 when we left. The final column is the 22 initial of the ORM staff person who went in 440 1 on that particular occasion. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I'm 3 going to object to questions about this 4 document as being beyond the scope of 5 questioning allowed by the judge's order upon 6 Mr. Good, although, having stated the 7 objection, I will not instruct the witness 8 not to answer. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q With regard to Room 563, is that a 11 room at the Office of Personnel Security? 12 A No, this is one of the rooms in the 13 Old Executive Office Building in which we 14 store some of our files, and files that come 15 to us in boxes of a sensitive or security 16 nature are put in this room. 17 Q Which files were put in this room? 18 A Among the files that were put in 19 this room would have been those of the Office 20 of Personnel Security at that point that they 21 were turned over to us. 22 Q These are the subject FBI files and 441 1 other materials? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 3 You may answer. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Put into this room was there any 7 documentation concerning Kathleen Willey? 8 A I don't know but I don't believe 9 so. 10 Q What causes you to say you don't 11 know but you don't believe so? 12 A Let me rephrase that. If among the 13 boxes of files sent down to us by any office 14 within The White House there might have been 15 a document relating to Kathleen Willey, then, 16 if that box was put upstairs in 563, then, 17 yes, there would have been a document up 18 there relating to Kathleen Willey. If, 19 however, that came over as part of a piece of 20 correspondence from Kathleen Willey or 21 whatever, just as an individual document, it 22 would have gone into our regular files rather 442 1 than in a box. 2 In addition, let's assume for the 3 moment that the box of files coming to us 4 from staff office was not considered 5 sensitive or security classified. Then we 6 would not have put that box upstairs. This 7 room was reserved for security classified or 8 sensitive or administratively confidential 9 material up to the point where we had enough 10 space up there for them. 11 Q I have the same question with 12 regard to Linda Tripp. Were any documents 13 concerning Linda Tripp stored in this room at 14 any time? 15 A I think my answer would be the same 16 if -- depending upon how the document came to 17 us. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to get a 19 position of counsel on this. This was not a 20 document which was produced to us pursuant to 21 the first subpoena and notice of deposition. 22 It's our position that it should have been 443 1 produced but it wasn't produced. Now, what 2 is your position? Am I allowed or will you 3 grant me by stipulation the ability to ask 4 questions about this document, or do we need 5 to go back to the court on that? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Are you referring to 7 the first subpoena in connection with 8 Mr. Good's first deposition? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: The judge's order on 11 the 30(b)(6) motion was very clear. 12 Plaintiffs were not entitled to demand any 13 production of documents in connection with 14 the 30(b)(6) depositions. The judge said 15 after those depositions were taken Plaintiffs 16 could then submit document requests on the 17 subject of the 30(b)(6) depositions, and so 18 at the first of the 30(b)(6) depositions, 19 Ms. Crabtree, I believe, although I'm not 20 certain of that at this point, we gave you a 21 notice of objection that we would not be 22 producing any documents at the 30(b)(6) 444 1 depositions because of the judge's order 2 disallowing document requests in connection 3 with them. 4 Now, I've already stated that I 5 believe questioning about this document, yes, 6 is beyond the scope of the judge's order; 7 however, I'm not instructing the witness not 8 to answer questions about this document, 9 although it is our position we were under no 10 obligation to produce this document at an 11 earlier time. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask for the 13 witness just to sequester himself right now? 14 I'd like to go into something here. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: He's asking you to 16 step outside, Mr. Good. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: It is also our 18 position that this document should have been 19 produced in prior requests for production of 20 documents yet we never got it. It's clearly 21 relevant. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Why? Relevant to 445 1 what? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: It deals with the 3 subject FBI materials. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: How so? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to get 6 into great depth. Are you going to allow me 7 to question the witness on this and then 8 assert that I had no right to do so or should 9 I go to Judge Lamberth right now? What's 10 your position on that? I'd like both your 11 positions. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I've stated my 13 position twice. This questioning about these 14 documents is beyond the scope of the judge's 15 order. The judge did not say that in 16 connection with this deposition you were 17 allowed to serve a subpoena and ask questions 18 about a host of documents that were unrelated 19 to the subject matter of Mr. Good's earlier 20 deposition. That said, I have not instructed 21 the witness not to answer questions about 22 this document. So it is you who interrupted 446 1 your questioning to make an issue of this, 2 Mr. Klayman, not I. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Based on your 4 objection, and, Mr. Green, what's your 5 position? 6 MR. GREEN: My position is 7 essentially the same. I've looked over the 8 court's order; in fact, I was a little bit 9 surprised to receive this subpoena in light 10 of the language in the court's order, which 11 did not make any allowance for service of a 12 subpoena, and I was even more surprised to 13 get it on the eve of the Memorial Day 14 weekend, as I've indicated in my letter, 15 inasmuch as you knew Mr. Good was going to be 16 redeposed for a substantially long period of 17 time; however, I need you to know that in 18 trying to work through this process with a 19 minimum of disruption and in the spirit in 20 which I think Judge Lamberth wants us to try 21 to accomplish this we didn't raise that 22 objection except insofar as it's set forth in 447 1 my letter this morning. 2 My position with respect to Terry 3 is that we'll try to follow through on your 4 questions for a while unless they just depart 5 so far from the court's order that in our 6 view, we're in uncharted and impermissible 7 waters. 8 And my only advice to you is that 9 ask the questions you want to ask with a view 10 to trying yourself to determine whether these 11 documents are really meaningful. We have out 12 of an abundance of caution and again in the 13 spirit in which we've come together here 14 today given you what he could find without 15 really dicing through and parsing through 16 relevance issues to the nth degree. So 17 there's a document that maybe someone such as 18 yourself could argue is responsive for 19 reasons set forth. We may not think it is, 20 but, nevertheless, here this morning ask your 21 questions. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Just let me add one 448 1 thing, Mr. Klayman, and I do this by way of 2 notice and not to saber-rattle. If we come 3 up to the six-hour limit here and you have 4 not covered all the topics authorized by the 5 court's order because you have spent 6 substantial amounts of time on topics such as 7 this document which was not authorized by the 8 court's order, then we may have a problem. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm throwing it out 10 to you. I'm throwing the ball in both of 11 your courts. I'm saying I can go back and I 12 can file a Motion to Compel with the court 13 and seek additional grounds to take testimony 14 on this document in depth. It's our position 15 we should have gotten it from the start, but 16 I wanted to see whether you'd like to see if 17 we should proceed right now without our 18 having to ask Mr. Good to come back for a 19 fourth time. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: We were doing that, 21 as I recall, five or ten minutes ago, before 22 you asked Mr. Good to leave. 449 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You made an 2 objection, and it looked to me like the basis 3 of your objection was that we shouldn't be 4 doing it. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Indeed it is but, 6 having stated the objection, as I explicitly 7 stated, I did not instruct the witness not to 8 answer, and I agree with what Mr. Green said. 9 We're not going to nitpick every little 10 question of relevance or scope of the judge's 11 order, but at some point depending on your 12 questioning the point may come when we will 13 have to but we haven't gotten there yet. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: We're hardly gun-shy 15 here. We know what the judge's order says. 16 We know what the relevancy of this case is. 17 We know that this document should have been 18 produced sooner. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I take issue with 20 that, as I said earlier. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: If we proceed with 22 questioning, do you intend to file a motion 450 1 with regard to our questioning saying we were 2 outside of the court's order? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: If that's your 4 concern, no, I do not think we're going to 5 run for Judge Lamberth and ask for some sort 6 of relief on the basis that you were improper 7 in your questioning, especially when I have 8 said that I'm not going to stop the 9 questioning. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that your position 11 too, Mr. Green? 12 MR. GREEN: I think both of us are 13 prepared to give you, for lack of a better 14 way of saying it, fair warning if we think 15 you are pushing up against the contours of 16 the judge's order here in a way that we find 17 objectionable. I'm not going to try to 18 sandbag you or lead you into some situation 19 where you're at your peril. You'll know how 20 I feel because I'm not shy about expressing 21 myself. Right now I think rather than waste 22 further time let's get the witness in here. 451 1 Ask the questions you want. Hopefully, you 2 will exercise as much prudence and restraint 3 as we are and we can move through this. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: You can bring him 5 back. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Mr. Good, with regard to Exhibit 4, 8 this is one page, is it not, of a series of 9 similar documents which you have in your 10 custody, possession, or control? 11 A This particular page I found in my 12 own files, and I have every reason to believe 13 that there are continuation pages of this, 14 yes. I do not have them in my immediate 15 possession, however. I had this one copy, 16 and in light of what I understood this seemed 17 to me to be relevant to your request, and so 18 I -- 19 Q When you say you had it in your 20 personal files, where were those personal 21 files kept? 22 A That was next to my desk. 452 1 Q You keep files next to your desk 2 called personal files? 3 A We went through this in our 4 previous deposition, Mr. Klayman. These are 5 files that are convenience files close by my 6 desk. Forgive me. I did not wish to imply 7 that they were personal in the legal sense. 8 Q So in fact they're government 9 files? 10 A These certainly are government 11 documents, certainly. 12 Q Then why have you produced them 13 through your personal counsel? 14 MR. GREEN: Let me interject here, 15 Mr. Klayman, because in responding to this 16 subpoena he was really responding in the 17 sense to directions of counsel, and for ease 18 of administration, if I can say that, and to 19 facilitate the response we did it on the 20 basis of geography, and that is that in 21 Terry's office or what I like to call Terry's 22 domain we had Terry go through that 453 1 personally and then in consultation with us 2 go over documents which had to be retrieved 3 and should be produced under any arguable 4 theory because we were leaning over backwards 5 to accommodate the subpoena. 6 It's my understanding that the 7 counsel representing the government here had 8 looked through the broader array of files for 9 responsive documentation; is that correct? 10 MR. GILLIGAN: The Office of 11 Records Management, yes, at large. 12 MR. GREEN: So it was a division of 13 labor. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Well, let me ask these questions. 16 What do you keep in those personal files? I 17 know you called them government files. You 18 first termed them personal files. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Beyond 20 the scope of the judge's order. You may 21 answer. 22 MR. GREEN: I think it's been 454 1 covered before, but, Terry, describe the 2 files in your office. 3 THE WITNESS: The documents that I 4 think we have produced here were in a file 5 labeled "Judicial," and I had broken it down 6 to files relating to the depositions that I 7 have had. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In this case or other cases as 10 well? 11 A This and others, Mr. Klayman. I 12 seem to have enjoyed a lot of attention in my 13 capacity as director of records management. 14 So I've done several of these depositions 15 now, and these files were some that I had put 16 in those files. 17 Q Were you ever asked to review these 18 files, these judicial files, by anyone at The 19 White House in response to a Judicial Watch 20 document request before you did so just in 21 the last week with your counsel, Mr. Green? 22 A I guess I would have to go back and 455 1 look at the request that you submitted a year 2 ago because that, I take it, is the one 3 you're referring to, is it not? 4 Q Well, if you had known about a 5 Judicial Watch document request that required 6 you to produce Exhibit 4, you wouldn't have 7 withheld it, would you? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 9 Witness may answer. 10 THE WITNESS: Are you referring to 11 the request that you deposed me on a year 12 ago? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q No, I'm just talking generally. 15 I'm saying if you knew that Judicial Watch 16 had posed document requests which required 17 you to produce Exhibit 4 before this 18 reconvened deposition that you're here on 19 today, going back one to two years, you 20 wouldn't have withheld Exhibit 4 at that 21 time, would you? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 456 1 Argumentative. 2 THE WITNESS: It wasn't a case of 3 withholding, Mr. Klayman. There was in my 4 mind the desire in reach out to any document 5 that appeared to be remotely responsive, and 6 in light of the -- one of the questions on 7 your subpoena this time that said -- 8 MR. GREEN: Don't get into that. 9 Just answer his question. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, no, I would not 11 have withheld it. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Had you provided Exhibit 4 to 14 anyone in The White House before you brought 15 it to the attention of Mr. Green, your 16 personal counsel, today? 17 A Again, as I say, this is a copy of 18 a file. I do not have the file itself. It 19 may well be that that file was provided to 20 White House counsel on previous occasions. 21 I'm unaware of that. This was simply a copy 22 of that, this one page that I had in my file. 457 1 Q Where is the original file? 2 A It would be elsewhere in the Office 3 of Records Management. 4 Q Did you provide that original file 5 to anyone in The White House before you 6 brought Exhibit 4 to the attention of 7 Mr. Green? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, asked and 9 answered. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Didn't get a 11 response. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I did not 13 personally do that. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Who else did? 16 A I don't know that anyone else did 17 or didn't. 18 Q Were you aware before this last 19 subpoena served upon you upon which you are 20 here today that Judicial Watch was seeking 21 records concerning the obtaining of FBI files 22 and the storing of FBI files and related 458 1 materials in The White House? 2 A Was that part of the deposition 3 that I took before? 4 Q No, my question is before you 5 appeared here today and let's say before you 6 appeared here the last time were you aware 7 that Judicial Watch was seeking records about 8 FBI file materials? 9 A Well, obviously, at some point I 10 was aware, Mr. Klayman. 11 Q When? 12 A Well, I think at that point where 13 it became known to The White House that you 14 were seeking it. 15 Q So The White House informed you at 16 the time of Judicial Watch's initial document 17 request that you, Terry Good, and your 18 office, Office of Records Management, were to 19 produce documents relating to the obtaining 20 and storage of FBI materials? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. I 22 caution the witness not to reveal any 459 1 communications he had with the Counsel's 2 Office about the production of documents in 3 connection with this lawsuit of FBI files 4 matter. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I just asked him 6 whether he was made aware and that is not 7 asking for any communication. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Were you made aware? 10 MR. GILLIGAN: I stand by my 11 objection and instruction to the witness. If 12 you can answer without revealing attorney- 13 client communications, you may do so. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: It's our position 15 that's an improper instruction. We're 16 entitled to know if he was made aware of what 17 Judicial Watch was requesting. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: It could infringe 19 his attorney-client communication and I've 20 instructed the witness only to the extent it 21 would reveal attorney-client communications. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: It's our position it 460 1 would not reveal communications under any 2 concept of attorney-client privilege. 3 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, if you'll 4 agree that there's no waiver of any 5 privilege, the witness can generalize to a 6 certain degree about document requests. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Since we're talking 8 about EOP's privilege, I would need a moment 9 with the witness, Mr. Green. 10 Mr. Good, why don't you just step 11 over here? 12 (Witness conferred with counsel) 13 MR. GILLIGAN: The witness may 14 respond. 15 THE WITNESS: I do not recall at 16 this moment how or by whom we were asked to 17 do the search on the FBI matter. I just do 18 not remember that. The Counsel's Office 19 would have requested that we do the search. 20 Whether or not they identified the party 21 asking that the search be conducted, I just 22 do not remember. 461 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q But you were aware long before your 3 deposition in this case, the very first time 4 you appeared, that Judicial Watch was seeking 5 documents and records concerning the FBI 6 files and related materials that are the 7 subject of this case? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Asked 9 and answered. 10 THE WITNESS: I can't honestly say 11 that I was aware that Judicial Watch was 12 pursuing this. Prior to my deposition, 13 Mr. Klayman, quite honestly, Judicial Watch 14 was not an entity that I knew anything about. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Well, let's take Judicial Watch's 17 name out of it. Were you aware that anyone, 18 whether it was Judicial Watch or Congress or 19 the Independent Counsel, was seeking 20 documents concerning the subject FBI 21 materials that became known as Filegate? 22 A I'm afraid I can't recall that. I 462 1 mean, obviously, it happened. When it 2 happened, I do not recall. 3 Q Do you remember generally when it 4 happened? 5 A No. We've been down this road 6 before. When it comes to dates, Mr. Klayman, 7 without looking at the documents I'm afraid I 8 can't help you on that. 9 Q During your last deposition you 10 remember testifying, do you not, that unless 11 you had 100-percent certainty that you were 12 instructed to say I don't recall? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. That 14 mischaracterizes the witness' testimony at 15 pages 216 and 245 of his prior testimony. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to ask 17 him what he testified to. There was quite a 18 nice colloquy there. 19 Do you remember that? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: I stand by my 21 objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 463 1 Q Do you remember that? 2 A Obviously, Mr. Klayman, this has 3 reached all the way to -- 4 MR. GREEN: Do you remember, yes or 5 no? He asked you whether you remember 6 something about your last deposition. 7 THE WITNESS: I remember a 8 discussion about this in the last deposition, 9 yes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And what is it that you tried to 12 express in your last deposition on that 13 issue? 14 A I tried to express that if I wasn't 15 sure of something under the -- in the 16 situation here where I am under oath I was 17 very uncomfortable to speculate or to guess. 18 Now, having -- time having passed -- 19 MR. GREEN: Wait, that's the end of 20 the question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You may finish your response. 464 1 A I think I have apparently answered 2 your question, so I'll wait for another. 3 Q Please tell us what you were about 4 to say. 5 MR. GREEN: Ask another question, 6 please. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What were you about to say, 9 Mr. Good? 10 A I'll wait, Mr. Klayman, for another 11 question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 13 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 14 Exhibit 5. 15 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 5 16 was marked for identification.) 17 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'll ask that 18 Exhibit 6 be put in front of you as well, and 19 that is the court's transcript of June 30, 20 1998, the written transcript of your 21 deposition on that date. 22 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 6 465 1 was marked for identification.) 2 MR. GILLIGAN: So we're making the 3 transcript of the deposition an exhibit to 4 the deposition. Are we in some sort of 5 continuous loop here, Mr. Klayman? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, given the fact 7 that you are quoting chapter and verse 8 portions of the deposition transcript, I 9 thought that you would in fact welcome that, 10 Mr. Gilligan. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: I do, as a matter of 12 fact. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Turn to page 6 of Exhibit 5. Do 15 you see that, Mr. Good? 16 A Yes. 17 Q In the middle of the page, the 18 court writes, "Plaintiffs' counsel returned 19 to Good's misunderstanding and its effect 20 later in the deposition, as seen in the 21 following exchange: 'Mr. Good:'" -- this is 22 found at page 245 of your transcript, if 466 1 you'd like to refer to that -- "'Mr. Good: 2 It's my understanding under these 3 circumstances that if I don't remember 4 something for sure my -- the correct answer 5 is I do not recall, I do not remember.'" 6 Mr. Good, how did you arrive at 7 that understanding? 8 A I believe today, Mr. Klayman, we've 9 also brought and submitted to you a 10 transcript of my deposition in front of the 11 Government Reform and Oversight Committee. 12 In reading back through that, I found that my 13 answers to many of the questions were similar 14 to those that I expressed in my deposition to 15 you. I also found in that transcript, at 16 least in one instance, where my attorney was 17 suggesting that I should be cautious about 18 answering if I were going to either guess or 19 speculate. 20 What I would like to submit to you 21 is that the guidance and the understanding 22 that I brought to the deposition for you a 467 1 year ago was shaped by my experiences not 2 only in that transcript or that deposition 3 but probably by the one I gave in the 4 healthcare matter earlier and then the one 5 that I gave for the Senate Judiciary 6 Committee. 7 Unfortunately, I do not have 8 transcripts of either one of those, but my 9 belief is that in each one of those I 10 answered questions to the best of my ability, 11 but I was concerned that if I were guessing 12 or speculating that I was going beyond what I 13 should when I'm under oath. In none of those 14 depositions did anyone say to me, Mr. Good, 15 you have a misunderstanding about how to 16 answer questions. 17 Not having been told that I was 18 operating under a misunderstanding, I went 19 into the deposition with you with those ideas 20 in mind, and I answered your questions with 21 those ideas in mind. Clearly, that was 22 incorrect, and I'm embarrassed about that, 468 1 but that's what happened. 2 Q So is what you're saying that this 3 was a procedure that you were operating under 4 with regard to prior depositions, not before 5 Judicial Watch but other tribunals, correct? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And that one of those other 8 tribunals was the tribunal in the Healthcare 9 Task Force case? 10 A That was one. 11 Q That was a tribunal which also had 12 the same judge in this case? You're aware of 13 that, Judge Royce Lamberth? 14 A I probably knew that at the time, 15 yes. 16 Q And who was your lawyer in that 17 case? 18 A There were several lawyers from the 19 Civil Division of the Department of Justice. 20 The one whose name comes to mind, I believe, 21 is David Souders. 22 Q Anyone else? 469 1 A There were several others whose 2 names I do not remember. 3 Q And Mr. Souders was the one who 4 told you that if you don't have 100 percent 5 recall to say I don't remember? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: No. No. I am unable 9 to say to you categorically what advice he 10 gave me. What I do remember consistently in 11 every instance was, and this is from each one 12 of the attorneys with whom I have had the 13 pleasure of working, tell the truth, the 14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. At 15 least in one case, one of the attorneys went 16 ahead to say to me you should understand the 17 distinction between knowing something 18 firsthand and knowing it second or thirdhand, 19 and those were the guiding principles that I 20 had carried with me in my depositions. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I just 22 want to make one thing clear for the record. 470 1 MR. KLAYMAN: If it's going to -- 2 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm going to say 3 this, so if you want the witness to leave, 4 let's have him leave. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, let's have him 6 leave. You can go back into that room, 7 Mr. Good. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Don't get 9 comfortable. This will only take a moment. 10 To the extent you're asking 11 questions about communications between 12 Mr. Good and government counsel in 13 preparation for depositions, normally we 14 would object to those as being covered by the 15 attorney-client privilege; however, we 16 understand Judge Lamberth's December 7, 1998, 17 order concerning Mr. Good to abrogate our 18 privilege insofar as the subject of his 19 misunderstanding is concerned. So for that 20 reason we're allowing him to answer those 21 questions. That's all I wanted to say. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: We can bring him 471 1 back. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Mr. Good, correct me if I'm wrong, 4 but I believe that before you identified 5 Mr. Souders of the Justice Department, who 6 represented you on the Healthcare Task Force 7 matter, you stated that you arrived at this 8 understanding as to how you were to respond 9 if you didn't have 100-percent certainty in 10 these other cases, in the healthcare case and 11 in the Filegate matter up at the Government 12 Reform Committee, correct? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 14 THE WITNESS: Throughout those 15 depositions, Mr. Klayman, I conducted myself 16 as I thought I should, answering the 17 questions as I thought I should. Never was I 18 told that I was not correct in any of my 19 assumptions or in any of my answers, and on 20 the basis of that I came into your deposition 21 bringing with me those understandings. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 472 1 Q Your position is that you got bad 2 advice from Mr. Souders, correct? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 4 Mischaracterizes the record. 5 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I would 6 never say that about any of the attorneys who 7 gave me advice. What I would say is I 8 apparently misunderstood them, and in a 9 desire to be extremely cautious and careful 10 went to an extreme relatively speaking. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Well, tell me what it is you 13 remember being with as much specificity as 14 possible what Mr. Souders told you that 15 caused you to come to the misunderstanding 16 that manifested itself at your last 17 deposition on June 30, 1998, in this case? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 19 Assumes facts not in evidence. 20 THE WITNESS: I cannot remember 21 specifically what he told me beyond tell the 22 truth, tell the truth, tell the truth, and 473 1 beyond that I do not remember. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q But he told you tell the truth as 4 long as you have 100-percent certainty, 5 correct? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I did not say 8 that. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Otherwise he told you to forget, 11 correct? 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 13 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, the 14 witness has already said that he can't 15 remember his conversation with his counsel at 16 that time -- 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Green, can we 18 sequester the witness here? 19 MR. GREEN: I don't think it's 20 necessary. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I just don't want to 22 taint the testimony. 474 1 MR. GREEN: I'm not going to taint 2 the testimony. All you're doing now with him 3 is arguing with him, and this is what makes 4 these depositions interminable. He stated 5 his answer and it's time to accept it and 6 move on. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Green, how do you 8 know these depositions are interminable? 9 MR. GREEN: By reputation. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: My reputation? 11 MR. GREEN: By general reputation. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying it's 13 my reputation? 14 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, I'm not 15 here to answer your questions. Ask this 16 witness a question, please. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'd like to get 18 some understanding from you why my question 19 here, which goes to the core issue of the 20 judge's order, is somehow repetitious. 21 MR. GREEN: Because you're just 22 wrestling with the witness. We can't create 475 1 out of whole cloth the recollection which the 2 witness says he doesn't have. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that you not 4 give him testimony. I just wanted your legal 5 position. 6 MR. GREEN: He stated clearly what 7 his recollection is and you're trying to put 8 words in his mouth and I find that offensive. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not trying to put 10 words in his mouth and I would like to 11 proceed with an air of civility here and the 12 use of the word "offensive" I think is 13 getting close to the line, Mr. Green. 14 MR. GREEN: You'll get absolute 15 civility from me, believe me. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't do anything 17 offensive. I'm just trying to find out what 18 the court order requires me to find out. 19 MR. GREEN: All you've got to do is 20 ask your next question and we'll move right 21 along. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, my question was 476 1 never answered. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So I'm going to ask you again, 4 Mr. Good. I want you to tell me with as much 5 specificity as you can what was it about 6 Mr. Souders' advice that caused you to come 7 to the misimpression that you were harboring 8 at the time of your last deposition here? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 10 Assumes facts not in evidence. 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, all I 12 can do is repeat what I have said to you 13 about what I remember, and please understand 14 that Mr. Souders is not the only attorney who 15 has given me advice I have gotten 16 subsequently from all of them. 17 Unfortunately, what I took away from all of 18 those was the understanding that I have 19 repeated, tell the truth, tell the truth, 20 tell the truth, be careful whenever you are 21 not sure of something, make sure you 22 understand the distinction between knowing it 477 1 firsthand and knowing it second or thirdhand, 2 and those have been the rules, the 3 guidelines, that I have used. And up until 4 the time that you deposed me those seem to be 5 satisfactory. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Well, what was it about those 8 specific instructions which caused you then 9 to come to this misimpression at the date of 10 your last deposition in this case? In other 11 words, wherein you state, as reflected in the 12 court's order, "It's my understanding under 13 these circumstances that if I don't remember 14 something for sure the correct answer is I do 15 not recall, I do not remember." 16 What was it about the instructions 17 you're telling me you got from Mr. Souders 18 and others in the Healthcare Task Force case 19 which causes you then to come up with this 20 conclusion? How did you make that 21 conclusion? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 478 1 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm sorry that 2 you're narrowing this to advice that I got 3 only from Mr. Souders. I think that's 4 unfair, and I don't think it's correct. I 5 got advice from other attorneys in each one 6 of those depositions, and I am unable to tell 7 you specifically what they told me beyond 8 what I have said just now, and coming into 9 your deposition I brought with me those 10 ideas. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Well, I'm going to get to that but 13 first I'd like to ask you -- I don't think 14 you understand my question -- how do you get 15 from the advice which you say you got in the 16 Healthcare Task Force case to this statement 17 that I just read to you? What is it about 18 those instructions in the prior Healthcare 19 Task Force case which allows you to come up 20 with this impression that I just read to you 21 on page 6 of the court's order in this case 22 of December 7, 1998? 479 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 2 Asked and answered. 3 THE WITNESS: Once again, 4 Mr. Klayman, all I can do is come back and 5 say I came into this deposition with you with 6 what in hindsight is a misunderstanding, and 7 it's one that clearly I arrived at on my own 8 using the guidance that had been given, and 9 when I made that statement it obviously 10 created in your mind -- raised all sorts of 11 questions. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Why at your last deposition on 14 June 30 didn't you just repeat to me the 15 advice which you got during this prior 16 Healthcare Task Force case? 17 A Once again I don't know why you 18 seem to be focusing on the Healthcare Task 19 Force case. I will say again that I received 20 advice and guidance from attorneys in these 21 other depositions, also. 22 Q Let me read to you at page 216, and 480 1 you can look at Exhibit 6. Page 216, line 4, 2 I asked you this question: "Have you 3 discussed Kathleen Willey with anyone other 4 than counsel? 5 "Answer: In the context of this 6 deposition, my answer is going to once again 7 be I do not remember. 8 "Question: What do you mean by, 9 'In the context of this deposition'? 10 "Answer:" -- this is your answer 11 -- "As I understand it, I am supposed to 12 remember for certain before I can certain yes 13 or no. 14 "Who told you that? 15 "Answer: I have had three or 16 four." 17 That's your testimony at the last 18 deposition, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that testimony was true when 21 you made it, correct? 22 A Yes. 481 1 Q There's nothing there that I read 2 you about your answers that are false, 3 correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q It's 100-percent accurate, correct? 6 A To the best of my ability. 7 Q The answer's yes? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Now, when you say, answer at line 10 11, "As I understand it, I am supposed to 11 remember for certain before I can certain yes 12 or no," you say I am supposed to remember for 13 certain. Now, are you referring there to 14 instructions that you were given in a prior 15 proceeding? 16 A How else would I have arrived at 17 that unless I had received advice from 18 attorneys in previous depositions? Having 19 said that, though, it's clear that I 20 misunderstood those -- the advice I was 21 given, and I carried it far beyond what 22 apparently in the legal community I should 482 1 have and I apologize for that, and I'm 2 prepared to answer your questions, 3 Mr. Klayman, with that understanding. 4 Q Well, the use of the phrase, as I 5 understand it, you were referring to the fact 6 that this is what you understood from advice 7 given to you by lawyers in prior cases, 8 correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q So you understood that what you're 11 about to say in this phrase you had gleaned 12 from attorneys in prior cases? 13 A And from my experience in other 14 depositions. 15 Q And the prior cases to which you 16 refer, one of them was the Healthcare Task 17 Force case? 18 A That and the other -- the one 19 before, the Government Oversight Reform 20 Committee and the judicial committee in the 21 Senate. 22 Q And then you say I am supposed to 483 1 remember for certain. What you're trying to 2 express there is this is what they told you, 3 correct? 4 A This is what I understood. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q This is what the lawyers told you, 8 correct? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 10 THE WITNESS: This is what I 11 understood. That's why I keep saying as I 12 understand it. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Is it also what the lawyers told 15 you? 16 A Please, my English there should be 17 complete, as I understand it. 18 Q Is it what the lawyers told you? 19 A If I remember what they told me, 20 Mr. Klayman, at this point in this 21 deposition, as well as in the previous one, I 22 would have said and I just do not remember. 484 1 Q Well, but you said here, at line 2 11, "I am supposed to remember for certain." 3 Now, you were trying to relate to me at that 4 time this is what you were instructed to do, 5 right? 6 A As I understood it. What more can 7 I say? I misunderstood, Mr. Klayman. 8 Q Well, how do you know you 9 misunderstood it? Maybe you were following 10 instructions, correct? 11 A I have said as I understood it. 12 Q Mr. Good, you don't want to 13 implicate prior counsel with the Justice 14 Department, correct? 15 A Is there something wrong with this 16 phrase, as I understand it? 17 Q Please answer my question. 18 A Repeat your question. 19 Q You don't want to get these prior 20 counsel who represented you in the Healthcare 21 Task Force and in these other proceedings in 22 trouble, do you? 485 1 A I wouldn't want to do that with 2 anybody, Mr. Klayman, yourself included. 3 Q I didn't hear the last part of that 4 response. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Can the court 6 reporter read back the witness' answer, 7 please? 8 (The reporter read the record as 9 requested.) 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And why wouldn't you want to do 12 that with anybody, myself included? 13 A It's not in my nature. 14 Q So rather than tell all of the 15 truth you would rather opt for not getting 16 people in trouble, correct? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 18 argumentative. 19 THE WITNESS: Repeat that -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Green, what did 21 you say to him? 22 MR. GREEN: I'm not going to tell 486 1 you. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I heard it. 3 MR. GREEN: Good, then you know 4 what I said. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't whisper 6 to him in the middle of a question. 7 MR. GREEN: I'll advise him as I 8 see fit. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 10 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the 11 question, Mr. Klayman? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the 13 question? 14 (The reporter read the record as 15 requested.) 16 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, no, the 17 truth comes first. There's no question about 18 that. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q And my question is when you say, "I 21 am supposed to remember for certain," you are 22 relating specific instructions that you got 487 1 from counsel in these prior proceedings, 2 correct? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I'm not. I 5 can't make it any clearer to you. I told you 6 what I remembered, what I understood. It was 7 on the basis of that that I went into all of 8 these other depositions. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Now, you are worried, aren't you, 11 that, if you implicate these other counsel, 12 one of which you've identified from the 13 Clinton Justice Department, that you could be 14 retaliated against in your current job, 15 correct? 16 A Are you aware of that, Mr. Klayman? 17 I'm not. 18 Q I'm asking you if you're concerned 19 about that. 20 A No, sir, I'm not. I have worked in 21 The White House for a good many 22 administrations, and the prospect of being 488 1 retaliated against is the furthest thing from 2 my mind. 3 Q Have you ever seen anyone 4 retaliated against in all of your years of 5 experience? 6 A In The White House? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Well, you sound like you know 9 something about this. Why don't you -- well, 10 first of all, what do you mean by "retaliated 11 against"? 12 Q Negative implications. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 14 vagueness. 15 THE WITNESS: I can't respond to 16 that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Are you aware that Linda Tripp's 19 FBI file was obtained? 20 A Obtained? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MR. GREEN: I think that's outside 489 1 the scope of -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: He asked me what I 3 knew. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, are there some 5 others that are within the scope? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You then go on to state "before I 8 can certain yes or no." Now that specific 9 phrase, when you said "before I can certain 10 yes or no," is there a typographical error 11 there? Did you mean to say before I can 12 state for certain yes or no? 13 A I would like to hope that what I 14 would have said is, before I can be certain. 15 Q I didn't ask you for what you'd 16 hope. I asked you for what you actually 17 said. 18 A Well, I can't dispute what is here 19 in front of me. If the videotape has 20 something different, I don't know, but I'm 21 sure that reasonable people can understand 22 what I meant to say there. 490 1 Q Before today did you ever 2 communicate with anyone saying this is an 3 incorrect transcription of what I said? 4 A I don't remember ever raising that 5 issue unless, you know, in my errata sheet I 6 might have inserted that, but I don't 7 remember that. 8 Q Did you do an errata sheet? 9 A I would defer to counsel on that. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: The answer, 11 Mr. Klayman -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want an 13 answer from you. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: All right, fine. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Please certify this. 16 This is inappropriate, Mr. Gilligan, 17 completely inappropriate, and I'll ask the 18 court to review it and make its own 19 assessment. Please don't do that again. It 20 happens at every deposition. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: All right, you force 22 me to respond to that. 491 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Good, would you 2 leave the room? Thank you. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: You asked if there 4 was an errata sheet on this point. I assumed 5 you had a genuine interest in knowing. I'll 6 state for the record now that there is. I'll 7 also state for the record that earlier you 8 interrupted me before I was able to say 9 whether there was or not, and as for your 10 remark that this meaning I assume in your 11 mind that we're tipping off witnesses at 12 every deposition, it happens at no deposition 13 in this or any other case that I work on, 14 Mr. Klayman. That's all I have to say. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll go by the 16 record. The court can make the 17 determination. But when you go "Ah," it 18 tells the witness that there is an errata 19 sheet. Now whether there is does not mean 20 that the witness actually prepared it or had 21 any input into it. It could be completely 22 bogus. 492 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I have 2 the errata sheet here. If you would like to 3 have it for whatever use -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I would like to see 5 it. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Golly, then I have 7 to apologize. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You don't do that in 9 front of a witness. That's the point. I 10 think you can understand that when you say ah 11 in front of a witness you're telling the 12 witness you're producing an errata sheet. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Pardon my 14 exuberance, Mr. Klayman. I thought you had a 15 genuine interest in seeing the document, and, 16 lo and behold, you do. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll take a 18 two-minute break. I ask that w not discuss 19 this with the witness. Thank you. 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 21 video record at 12:13. 22 (Recess) 493 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 2 video record at 12:18. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Good, do you remember preparing 5 an errata sheet after your deposition in this 6 lawsuit? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Did you prepare that in conjunction 9 with anyone else? Did someone help you with 10 that? 11 A I don't recall anyone helping me 12 with it. I think someone probably gave me 13 some general instructions about it. 14 Q Who gave you general instructions 15 about it? 16 A I do not remember. 17 Q It was a lawyer? 18 A I don't know who else would have 19 done it. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 21 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 22 Exhibit 7. 494 1 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 7 2 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Have you seen Exhibit 7 before? 5 A This appears to be an errata sheet 6 that I signed. 7 Q Who actually typed it out? 8 A I'm afraid I can't -- I don't know. 9 Q Was this errata sheet presented to 10 you for signature? 11 A Well, if I didn't type it out, 12 then, yes, it must have been presented to me. 13 Q Who presented it to you for 14 signature? 15 A I'm guessing it must have come from 16 the Department of Justice. 17 Q And who at the Department of 18 Justice sent it to you? 19 A I don't see any name on here saying 20 who it's from, so I'm at a loss to tell you. 21 Q Was it Mr. Gilligan? 22 A I just don't remember, Mr. Klayman. 495 1 Q Was it Ms. Shapiro, Elizabeth 2 Shapiro? 3 A Those are both people who worked on 4 this, so it could have been. 5 Q Was it a man or a woman? 6 A I don't remember. 7 Q Before this errata sheet was 8 provided to you by the Department of Justice 9 did you convey the information in this errata 10 sheet to the Department of Justice? 11 A Yes. 12 Q How did you do that? 13 A I would guess that I prepared it 14 and sent them a document saying these are the 15 changes that I caught in reviewing my 16 transcript. 17 Q How did you prepare it? How did 18 you send them that information? 19 A On a piece of paper. 20 Q You say, "I guess." You're not 21 sure? 22 A I doubt seriously if I did this 496 1 over the phone. It's got too much 2 information on it. 3 Q So in what form did you convey it 4 to the Department of Justice, the information 5 on this errata sheet? 6 A Well, again, I go back to a piece 7 of paper. It would have been a memo that was 8 either sent to them hard copy or by fax. 9 Q Where is that hard copy now stored 10 as of today? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q In fact, you don't even know 13 whether there ever was such a thing, do you? 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 15 mischaracterizes the testimony. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, I signed it, 17 Mr. Klayman. That tells me something. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q I'm asking about the information 20 which went, you claim, to the Department of 21 Justice. You say there was a hard copy. And 22 my question is you're not even sure there was 497 1 a hard copy, are you? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, let me again 4 say, as I said in the previous deposition to 5 you, this is a matter that, if you will allow 6 me to check to see if I have a copy of what I 7 sent, I'll be more than happy to do that. 8 There's no reason why I should hide that. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q I would ask that you do that. Now, 11 this document is undated. What date did you 12 sign it? 13 A Without the date on there, I'm at a 14 loss to say. 15 Q Roughly speaking? 16 A I don't recall how long it took for 17 that transcription to get to me, and I don't 18 recall how long it took me to read through 19 it. We're talking what, several weeks? 20 Q This errata was prepared and signed 21 in the last few months? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 498 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Last two months? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: You mean -- are you 5 implying that more than several months passed 6 from my deposition before this errata sheet 7 was done? Again, I would say to you, 8 Mr. Klayman, if a date is what is crucial 9 here, I think a search of the files would put 10 that matter to rest. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Then I'm asking you was this errata 13 sheet signed within the last two months from 14 today? That's my question. 15 A It seems highly unlikely that that 16 much time would have elapsed. 17 Q But you don't know? 18 A May I say to you again that the 19 documentation -- 20 Q The question is but you don't know? 21 That's the question that's pending. 22 A No, I don't know. 499 1 Q And you have no idea when this 2 thing was signed as of today? Sitting here 3 right now, you have no idea when you signed 4 this? 5 A It had to be within several months 6 of the deposition because I'm assuming that 7 the transcription was prepared within that 8 time frame and sent to me and I reviewed it, 9 and then I would have done the errata sheet. 10 There was no reason to -- 11 Q So the answer is no, you don't know 12 when it was signed? 13 A No, I don't know that if that's 14 what you're looking for. 15 Q Now, do you see where it says page 16 216 on the errata sheet, Exhibit 7? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Where it says that you are asking 19 that the words "before I can certain yes or 20 no" read "before I can answer yes or no," 21 that's correct? 22 A Yes, I see that. 500 1 Q And that's what you believe you 2 testified to back on June 30, 1998, "As I 3 understand it, I am supposed to remember for 4 certain before I can answer yes or no"? 5 A That fits, doesn't it? It makes 6 sense. 7 Q Is the answer yes? 8 A Repeat the question. 9 Q Are you changing your testimony to 10 read -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, Mr. Green, I 12 hear whispering. Please don't do that. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q "As I understand it, I am supposed 15 to remember for certain before I can answer 16 yes or no." That's what you wanted that 17 answer to be? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Well, let's look at the bottom of 20 this errata sheet. It says, "Reasons for the 21 corrections: All corrections reflect errors 22 in transcription confirming by comparing 501 1 transcription with videotapes of the 2 deposition for transcription spelling 3 errors." How did you arrive at this 4 suggested errata? How did you do that? 5 A Well, clearly there is a word 6 missing in the transcription. 7 Q At the bottom it says reason for 8 corrections. Are those your words, "All 9 corrections reflect errors in transcription 10 confirming by comparing transcription with 11 videotapes of the deposition or transcription 12 spelling errors"? Are those your words? 13 A Again, I would have to go back and 14 look at the document that I have said I would 15 be happy to look for. I don't remember those 16 words. 17 Q Did you compare the videotape to 18 the deposition transcript? 19 A No, I did not. 20 Q Then what did you do? 21 A I read the transcript, and in those 22 instances where I found an error as 502 1 transcribed I suggested that it be changed, 2 and if you'll look through that you'll see 3 that those are the kind of errors. 4 Q So when you made this change to, "I 5 can answer," line 216, you were going on the 6 basis of memory, not the basis of what was 7 actually said on the videotape? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q And you're absolutely sure of that? 10 A Well, I didn't see the videotape, 11 Mr. Klayman. 12 Q Are you absolutely sure of that? 13 A I am sure of that. 14 Q Now, if you can't remember when you 15 did the errata, then how are you sure of 16 that? 17 A That I didn't see the videotape? 18 Q What I'm wondering is if you can't 19 remember doing the errata in terms of how you 20 conveyed that -- 21 A Hold on. You said I don't remember 22 doing the errata. I do remember doing the 503 1 errata. You have pressed me for the date 2 that it was signed, and I have said to you, 3 if you will allow me to go back and see if I 4 can find the copy, that should answer the 5 question. 6 Q What I'm asking you is you couldn't 7 remember the date you signed it, you couldn't 8 remember whether you sent a hard copy over -- 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You don't remember whether you have 12 a hard copy of the errata, but yet you're 13 absolutely sure that you remembered the 14 specific words, "I can answer." How do you 15 come to that conclusion given your memory on 16 everything else? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, form, 18 mischaracterizes, argumentative. 19 THE WITNESS: Would you fault me 20 for attempting to make that sentence sound -- 21 make sense? That was what I was trying to 22 do. I'm at a loss as to why you seem hung up 504 1 on this. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you get anyone else to go back 4 and check the videotape? Did you ask anybody 5 to do that? 6 A No, I did not. 7 Q And you don't know for sure that 8 these are the exact words that you used, 9 correct? 10 A It makes sense to say, "I can 11 answer yes or no." 12 Q And you don't know for sure, do 13 you? 14 A That that's what I said? 15 Q Correct. 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q In the course of the prior 18 proceedings that you've been involved in, not 19 this Judicial Watch case but prior 20 proceedings, have you been instructed that 21 it's permissible to submit to a court 22 information with regard to a sworn 505 1 transcription which you are not sure is 2 accurate? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: You lost me. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Please read it back. 6 (The reporter read the record as 7 requested.) 8 THE WITNESS: Have I been given 9 advice? Is that what you're asking me? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Just what the question says. I'm 12 asking for a response. If you'd like it read 13 back again, we can read it back again. 14 A Please. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Please read it back 16 again. 17 (The reporter read the record as 18 requested.) 19 THE WITNESS: I would have to say I 20 do not remember being given specific advice 21 on what I could or could not do in this 22 regard. But it seems pretty common sense to 506 1 me as you look down these changes that I've 2 made. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q The next question that I asked you, 5 line 14, page 216, "Who told you that? 6 "Answer: I have had three or 7 four," and it's cut off. 8 Now, what is the rest of the answer 9 to that question? You testified I have three 10 or four. It's cut off. How did you intend 11 to complete that sentence? 12 A This is a guess, is that clear? 13 Q I'm asking you to say what it is 14 you intended to say. 15 A I will guess that I intended to say 16 I have had three or four attorneys over the 17 course of these other depositions. 18 Q And, therefore, they told you to 19 say what I just read to you? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 21 THE WITNESS: You choose to ignore 22 what I have said in several of these 507 1 statements, "as I understand it." I have not 2 said I have been instructed. I said "as I 3 understand it." 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Who were those three or four 6 attorneys? 7 A David Souders is one I have 8 mentioned. David Wilson of Hale & Dorr is 9 the attorney that I had for the two 10 depositions that I gave for the Government 11 Reform and Oversight and the Senate Judiciary 12 Committee, and there was at least one other 13 individual with David Souders whose name I do 14 not remember. 15 Q Now, in the testimony that you gave 16 before the Government Reform Committee and 17 the Senate Committee -- 18 A The staff. It was not the 19 committee. 20 Q Was that testimony on the 21 Healthcare Task Force matter? 22 A No, sir, it was not. 508 1 Q It was on Filegate? 2 A Travel Office and Filegate. 3 Q And you had a government attorney 4 representing you in those proceedings as 5 well, did you not, as you have today? 6 A No. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You only had private counsel in 11 those proceedings? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And David Wilson of Hale & Dorr? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Who paid for that private counsel? 16 A The government. 17 Q The Clinton Administration? 18 A The Department of Justice paid for 19 that. 20 Q Who at the Department of Justice 21 authorized the payment of that legal 22 representation? 509 1 A I do not know. 2 Q And that legal representation was 3 intended to represent you both professionally 4 and personally, correct? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: That's a legal 7 distinction that I'm not sure I can make. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You were told that that lawyer was 10 going to protect your professional and 11 personal interests, Mr. David Wilson? 12 A I don't remember anything that 13 specific. 14 Q Tell me what you remember. 15 A That he was there to represent me. 16 I don't remember going into any detail. 17 Q Today you have Mr. Green, who is 18 representing your personal interests, 19 correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q And you have Mr. Gilligan and the 22 other lawyers who identified themselves 510 1 representing your professional interests, 2 correct? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Except for 6 Mr. Gaffney, who's representing Mrs. Clinton. 7 THE WITNESS: That's my 8 understanding. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And you were aware at the time that 11 you testified before the House and the Senate 12 that your personal interests may differ from 13 your professional interests, correct? 14 A I do not remember being told that. 15 Q But you are aware of that today and 16 that's why you have two different sets of 17 counsel, correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q So you're saying that no one ever 20 advised you when you appeared in front of the 21 House or the Senate that there was any 22 potential for a conflict of interest between 511 1 your personal and professional interests? 2 A Mr. Klayman, I have a memo -- 3 MR. GREEN: I think I'm going to 4 raise an objection here that the advice he 5 got from any attorney on this subject seems 6 beyond the scope of the court's order. If 7 I'm wrong, Mr. Klayman, just tell me under 8 what subsection of the court's order you 9 think this line of questioning can be 10 attached to, and I'll reconsider. But I 11 don't see it, and I think that we're into 12 impermissible waters here. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask Mr. Good 14 to go into the other room again. 15 The court's orders raise 16 rhetorically the question of who's 17 responsible for Mr. Good's "misimpression," 18 as he calls it today. And, therefore, to the 19 extent that this misimpression stems from 20 this prior representation and to the extent 21 that the prior representation was by counsel 22 in his professional capacity as opposed to 512 1 his personal capacity the court will then be 2 able to ascertain who, if anyone, to sanction 3 here, and that's why it is relevant. 4 MR. GREEN: Well -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Because it is the 6 government who, in addition to other 7 possibilities, is on the line for possible 8 sanctions. 9 MR. GREEN: First of all, I think 10 that you have asked him if not once a number 11 of times now to identify those lawyers who 12 advised him generally with respect to giving 13 testimony in different depositions. He's 14 identified those individuals to the best of 15 his ability, so we know who they are. 16 He's also testified, if I'm hearing 17 him correctly, that he cannot repeat for you 18 here what exactly they advised him, and if I 19 understand what he's saying, and I think this 20 is a fair statement of record as of this 21 moment, he is saying that on the basis of 22 conversations that he had with his prior 513 1 counsel he carried away from those 2 conversations an understanding which he 3 believes in retrospect to be a 4 misunderstanding about how he was to answer a 5 question if he was in doubt about the answer 6 or in the absence of precise information and 7 recollection as to whether he could confirm 8 or deny in response to a question. I think 9 the questions you're putting to him now go 10 afield of this. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, what I want to 12 know and let me see if I can cut through this 13 is whether the issue was ever raised because 14 that does bear on whether this individual at 15 Hale & Dorr was representing him in a 16 governmental capacity or in a personal 17 capacity. So if he doesn't know we can just 18 let him say I don't remember or I don't know, 19 and that's as far as really I need to go if 20 that's the response. 21 MR. GREEN: When you said I want to 22 know if this was raised or discussed what 514 1 does "this" refer to? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: The issue whether 3 there was a potential conflict between having 4 a personal counsel and a government counsel 5 because it does bear on whether this Justice 6 Department is engaged in a continuing course 7 of conduct to obstruct this and other legal 8 proceedings. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: I object to that 10 characterization, Mr. Klayman. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Because if that 12 private counsel was there on behalf of the 13 Justice Department in his professional 14 capacity it obviously has evidentiary 15 significance in terms of being a pattern, and 16 let the court make its own conclusion as to 17 what that means, but I just wanted to get the 18 response as to whether he had an 19 understanding of why this individual from 20 Hale & Dorr was there in his personal 21 capacity or his professional capacity. 22 MR. GREEN: I think you asked a 515 1 question that was pretty close to that, and I 2 think he said that he couldn't parse that 3 out. I think that's his answer to the 4 question. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and I was 6 trying to clarify it, and if that's his 7 response then I don't think I need to go 8 further unless something else comes up in the 9 questioning on that issue. 10 MR. GREEN: Well, I'll allow you, 11 without making a fuss about it to ask him 12 that question you want to ask him and see 13 where it goes, although I think it's not 14 leading us anywhere that's productive. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sure that you've 16 given him excellent counsel, Mr. Green. 17 You're an experienced attorney with a 18 reputation in that regard, but to the extent 19 that he's now protecting this Clinton Justice 20 Department, if he's doing that, it's a 21 detriment to him and that's why -- 22 MR. GILLIGAN: I must once again 516 1 object to your arguments, Mr. Klayman. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just saying this 3 between you and me to see if we can move this 4 along. 5 MR. GREEN: We have been, I think, 6 most indulgent here, in an effort to move it 7 along. It's now a quarter of 1:00 and 8 although this is, I'm sure, an important 9 topic to you and one which the judge 10 identified as worthy of further examination 11 by you, it's certainly not the only one. My 12 feeling is that we've been through this over 13 and over again. 14 I might say too, along as we're 15 talking among ourselves here, for just a 16 second longer, that what I take from 17 listening to this witness is that he was 18 really cautioned about not speculating, and 19 he carried that caution perhaps to a further 20 place in his formulation of responses than 21 maybe others would, but the only thing that 22 you were deprived of, I think, if you were 517 1 deprived of anything in the prior 2 proceeding -- I read these transcripts a 3 couple times -- was his speculation. I don't 4 think you were deprived of his recollection 5 where he had recollection. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: In all due respect, 7 if you want to put that on the record on your 8 time, that's fine, but I'm trying to move it 9 along. We've gotten a lot of nonresponses to 10 questions. I'm trying to be patient here. 11 The court will be able to determine what the 12 responsiveness is. Let's bring him back, and 13 let's ask him this question. 14 MR. GREEN: All right. Bring the 15 witness back in. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the 17 last question, before we went into counsel's 18 discussion? 19 (The reporter read the record as 20 requested.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Please respond. 518 1 A There's a memo on file where, when 2 I first got your request to appear before the 3 Government Reform and Oversight, in which I 4 said a Barbara Comstock from that committee 5 invited me up, and I was prepared to go up 6 there without counsel because, according to 7 Ms. Comstock, they simply wanted to simply 8 ask me some questions. And I said. That's 9 fine with me. I'll go up without counsel. 10 So that was my position, Mr. Klayman, on 11 that. I was prepared to go up there without 12 counsel. 13 Q That's not the answer to my 14 question. Do you want to have it read back 15 again? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Read the question 17 back again, please. 18 (The reporter read the record as 19 requested.) 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I take it from your prior 519 1 testimony, that you have been so advised, 2 before you appeared here today on this 3 particular deposition session? 4 MR. GREEN: I think that invades my 5 discussions with him, which I think are 6 off-limits. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Who is paying 8 Mr. Green's legal fees at Sidley & Austin? 9 (Witness conferred with counsel) 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Green's services 11 are being provided pro bono. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q How did you learn of Mr. Green? 14 A I believe a member of The White 15 House Counsel's Office suggested him. 16 Q The member of The White House 17 Counsel's Office was who? 18 A It may have been Michelle Peterson 19 or Wendy White. 20 Q You don't remember? 21 A I do not remember for sure, no. 22 Q When did this suggestion occur? 520 1 A Obviously, at some point before 2 this deposition was to take place, whenever I 3 was informed that the judge had given you 4 permission to depose me again. 5 Q This occurred in the last few 6 weeks? 7 A I think it was earlier than that. 8 Q Last few months? 9 A Yes. 10 Q This White House counsel called 11 you? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You did not call her? 14 A No. 15 Q What did she tell you, 16 specifically? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: A moment before he 18 answers, I have to confer with my client. 19 Mr. Klayman, in light of the 20 judge's order, we're going to allow the 21 witness to answer what would otherwise be an 22 objectionable question. You may answer, 521 1 Mr. Good. 2 THE WITNESS: I do not remember 3 specifically what was told. I was informed 4 that I was going to be deposed again. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You took notes of the conversation? 7 A No, I did not. 8 Q Tell me generally what was 9 discussed. 10 A Beyond being informed that I was 11 going to be informed again, I can only guess 12 that the suggestion was made that I ought to 13 seek counsel, and that I might want to 14 contact Mr. Green of Sidley & Austin. 15 Q You were told that you wouldn't 16 have to pay Mr. Green's legal fees? 17 A No, I was not told that. 18 Q You were told that Mr. Green and/or 19 Sidley & Austin were administration friendly 20 attorneys, something to that effect? 21 A No, I was not told that. 22 Q You were told that Mr. Green and/or 522 1 Sidley & Austin were representing some other 2 witness in this case? 3 A I don't remember being told that. 4 Q You were told that Mr. Green of 5 Sidley & Austin would protect both your 6 interests and the government's interests? 7 A I don't remember being told that, 8 no. 9 Q You were just told to go see 10 Mr. Green? 11 A Yes. 12 Q You identified another attorney, 13 Mark Wilson -- was it Mark Wilson? 14 A David Wilson. 15 Q Wilson of Hale and Dorr, who 16 represented you before the House and the 17 Senate in Filegate and Travelgate matters, 18 correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q What did he advise you about 21 whether or not you should respond if you 22 didn't have 100 percent recall? 523 1 A He was the one who I remember 2 cautioning me about, if you don't know it 3 firsthand, you need to be careful if it's 4 second or third hand information. Of course, 5 he also was very clear about telling the 6 truth. Those are the things I remember. 7 Q He told you that if you don't know 8 firsthand, tell the person that's asking you 9 the questions, I don't know it firsthand? 10 A No, I don't remember him telling me 11 that. 12 Q He says, if you know it firsthand, 13 then you don't need to say anything, correct? 14 A I don't remember him telling me 15 that. 16 Q Then what did he tell you? 17 A He just wanted me to be aware that 18 there's a difference between firsthand 19 information and second or third hand 20 information. 21 Q What did he tell you to do with 22 second or third hand information, in terms of 524 1 testifying? 2 A I don't remember that. 3 Q In fact, he told you exactly what I 4 read to you, at page 216, lines 4 through 15, 5 correct? 6 A How did you arrive at that 7 conclusion? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q He said, as I understand it, I'm 11 supposed to remember for certain, before I 12 can answer yes or no. That's what Mr. Wilson 13 told you to say, right? 14 A Where are you attributing that to 15 Mr. Wilson? 16 Q I'm asking you the question. Isn't 17 that what he told you? 18 A No. I told you what he told me, 19 what I remember from it, and the 20 understanding that I took with me. 21 Q Therefore, you must have gotten 22 that instruction from the Justice Department 525 1 lawyer, Mr. Souders? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, we've 4 been around this several times. I've done my 5 best to make it clear to you that what I 6 remember from all of these discussions is 7 pretty much tell the truth and be careful if 8 you don't know. That's the understanding I 9 took from those. There may well have been 10 other advice that may have been clear that I 11 misunderstood. Please don't blame the 12 lawyers for this. You blame me, not the 13 lawyers. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You're going to take complete 16 responsibility for coming up with this 17 misimpression, that if you don't have 100 18 percent recall, you say, I don't remember? 19 You're going to take complete responsibility? 20 A I will take complete responsibility 21 for that, Mr. Klayman. 22 Q You will take responsibility, even 526 1 if the court issues a sanction order and 2 orders you to pay attorneys' fees and costs? 3 A I'm not going to shy away from 4 anything that I am responsible for, 5 Mr. Klayman. That's not the way I was 6 raised. 7 Q Have you been told who was going to 8 pay attorneys' fees and costs, if that is 9 such an award that this court ultimately 10 decides to make? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q Have you asked that question of 13 anyone? 14 A No, I haven't. 15 Q Have you asked anybody the 16 question, what happens if I get punished 17 here? Who's going to take that 18 responsibility in terms of making payment? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q You've been told by the Clinton 21 Administration that they'd pick the tab up; 22 haven't you? You've been told by this 527 1 Clinton Administration that they would pay, 2 in the event you were ordered to pay 3 attorneys' fees and costs, correct? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q You said that you produced some 6 documents here today where you can 7 demonstrate that this was the instruction 8 that you were given in these prior legal 9 proceedings? You said you had transcripts, 10 correct? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 12 It mischaracterizes. 13 THE WITNESS: I specifically 14 referred to the transcript of my deposition 15 before the Government Reform and Oversight 16 Committee. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You brought that here today? 19 A I didn't bring it -- oh, yes, I 20 did. Yes. 21 Q Show me where that is. 22 MR. GREEN: You want him to sit 528 1 here and page through that entire deposition? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd prefer to do 3 that. I'm going to try to find, Mr. Green, 4 for purposes of accommodating counsel -- I 5 know you're probably getting hungry too -- a 6 convenient point to break where we finish a 7 certain subset of this line of questioning, 8 so we don't leave it hanging. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Are you referring to 10 this document, Mr. Klayman? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know. Don't 12 interject, Mr. Gilligan. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Did I say which 14 document? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll stipulate that I 16 don't want your help. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: I'll stipulate that 18 you need it, but I'll also stipulate that you 19 don't want it. I was just going to suggest 20 that the document, which I think it's obvious 21 which one it is, that we mark it as an 22 exhibit. That's all. 529 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think it's 2 obvious. You're telling the witness, again, 3 testimony. Certify this. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: What did I tell him? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't talk. 6 You'll have an opportunity for 7 cross-examination. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: I'll speak when I 9 feel it necessary, Mr. Klayman. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll even pro bono 11 agree to represent you. 12 MR. GREEN: Do we have a question? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: I don't know that 14 I'd be getting my money's worth, Mr. Klayman. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What document were you referring 17 to, Mr. Good? 18 A The transcription of my deposition 19 before the Committee on Government Reform and 20 Oversight, which I was deposed on 21 June 25, 1996. Now -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay, let me ask that 530 1 be marked as Exhibit 8. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Is there another document from 4 which you gleaned this "misimpression"? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Show me what in the document gave 7 rise to your misimpression, Exhibit 8, this 8 transcript? 9 A What I am saying to you is, this is 10 an example of how I came to believe that my 11 responses, when under oath, should be very 12 guarded, and I cite only one example of this 13 on page 23 of this. I'm being asked a 14 question and Mr. Wilson says, can you answer 15 without speculating or guessing? I cite that 16 as only one example that I think it goes to 17 the heart of the issue, and throughout this 18 entire deposition, Mr. Klayman, if you were 19 to read through it, you will find that I am 20 answering, as frequently in this deposition, 21 with statements I do not remember, or I do 22 not recall, as I have when I was deposed by 531 1 you. 2 At no time was I told that my 3 understanding of how to answer was incorrect, 4 and I don't remember being criticized during 5 the healthcare deposition for the answers I 6 gave then, nor do I remember being criticized 7 when I was before the Senate Judiciary 8 Committee. What I am trying to say is that 9 in all of these previous depositions, the 10 positions I took and the answers I gave 11 seemed acceptable. It was only, Mr. Klayman, 12 when you deposed me that I was informed that 13 my answers were incorrect or that I was 14 operating under a misunderstanding. I have 15 no other documents to site except this one. 16 I'm sorry; I don't have transcriptions of the 17 other depositions. 18 Q No one from the Justice Department 19 or any of your other prior counsel told you 20 that your impression was wrong, correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q The first time you learned that 532 1 your impression was wrong was in the court's 2 order of December 7, 1998? 3 A I'm not sure which document you're 4 referring to, but is this the one where 5 the -- 6 Q I marked it today. 7 A Which exhibit was it? 8 Q December 7th. 9 MR. HEMMERSBAUGH: PX-5. 10 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat your 11 question? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q That's the first time you learned 14 that you've been harboring a misimpression 15 all these years? 16 A Yes. 17 Q In none of the prior consultations 18 you had with any counsel, whether it was 19 Mr. Gilligan, or Ms. Shapiro or anybody, 20 anyone had ever told you to answer, if you 21 didn't have 100 percent certainty? 22 A No, Mr. Klayman. I think you will 533 1 recall that you deposed me on two separate 2 occasions. Because the time ran out, we came 3 back a second day. At some point in the 4 course of that deposition, my attorneys went 5 over with me the answers I had given and the 6 misunderstanding that I had, so that it was 7 during -- at some point during the latter 8 half of that deposition, whether it was on 9 the first day or the second day, I don't 10 remember, but I think we addressed that issue 11 then. So that would have been when I was 12 first made aware that I was operating under a 13 misunderstanding. 14 Q Before the second Judicial Watch 15 deposition, you were advised by your lawyers 16 that, in fact, you had a misimpression or 17 misunderstanding? 18 A This occurred late in the afternoon 19 of that deposition on the first day, or in 20 the morning of the 2nd. 21 Q Between your first deposition and 22 Judicial Watch of June 30th and your second 534 1 deposition of July 2, 1998, in the interim 2 period, you were informed by your lawyers 3 that you had been under this misimpression? 4 A Again -- 5 Q It calls for a yes or no. 6 A May be quibbling here, but it may 7 well have been that that was addressed in the 8 latter half of the first deposition on the 9 first day. I'm not sure that makes a lot of 10 difference, but I do want to make the point 11 that it may well have been the afternoon of 12 that first day that I was informed that -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go back to 14 Exhibit 8, and we'll ask that that be marked. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: No, it wasn't 16 marked. 17 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 8 18 was marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Let's turn to page 23 of this 21 transcript. Do you see that? 22 A I'm on page 23. 535 1 Q You've just referenced an instance 2 there where you were told by Mr. Wilson, "Can 3 you answer without speculating or guessing?" 4 Do you see that in the middle of the page? 5 A I do. 6 Q It's your testimony that it was 7 this type of instruction which caused you to 8 form your misimpression? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q The question then asked to you by 11 Ms. Comstock was, if you have general 12 knowledge of what was in that box. You 13 responded, "It has to do with The White House 14 Communications Agency. There are files of 15 some sort relating to The White House 16 Communications Agency, which is a military 17 unit assigned from the Department of Defense 18 in support of the Commander in Chief." That 19 is your response, correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q That was a true response when you 22 made it? 536 1 A That's correct. 2 Q That remains a true response today, 3 correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q You did not respond, I do not 6 remember, correct? 7 A The question did not call for that 8 kind of an answer. 9 Q Yes or no? 10 A No, I did not respond that way. 11 Q Consequently, this instruction that 12 you've referred to about not speculating, 13 doesn't give rise to your misimpression by 14 your own example, correct? 15 A No, Mr. Klayman. See, if you knew 16 the question and the documents that were 17 being cited there, you would understand my 18 answer. 19 Q In fact, the answer that you gave 20 on page 23 was unequivocal, correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Since that moment when you learned 537 1 that you were under a misimpression, whether 2 it occurred during the first deposition or 3 sometime in between your first and second, 4 being June 30th and July 2, 1998, in the 5 period of time after that, did you discuss 6 with any government lawyers, whether at the 7 Justice Department, or at The White House or 8 any other government agency, the 9 misimpression? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q You prepared, did you not, 12 Mr. Good, an affidavit which you submitted to 13 the court in this case after your first 14 depositions? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Who prepared the initial draft of 17 that affidavit? 18 A Let's be more specific. Do you 19 have a copy of it? 20 Q I'm going to show it to you, but 21 I'm just going to ask you this question. 22 A I'd like to see it. 538 1 Q You remember the affidavit, 2 correct? 3 A I'm not sure which one you're 4 referring to. I think I know. May I know? 5 Q I'll show it to you in a minute. 6 You remember an affidavit you signed after 7 your depositions? 8 A I have not prepared any affidavits. 9 Q Period? 10 A That's correct. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 12 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 13 Exhibit 9. 14 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 9 15 was marked for identification.) 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, are you 17 getting to go a point soon where we can break 18 for lunch? It is, after all, after 1:00. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: As soon as I finish 20 this line of testimony. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Exhibit 9 is an affidavit signed on 539 1 August 19, 1998, by Terry A. Good. Is that 2 your signature on page 3? 3 A Terry W. Good, yes. 4 Q I take it from your testimony that 5 you did not prepare this affidavit? 6 A No, I did not. 7 Q Who did? 8 A I do not know who prepared it. 9 Q How did it arrive, such that you 10 could sign it? 11 MR. GREEN: He's having difficulty 12 understanding your question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q How did you get this document so 15 you could then sign it? 16 A Well, someone had to give it to me. 17 I did not go over to the Department of 18 Justice to pick it up, so I -- it would have 19 been delivered to me within the confines of 20 The White House. 21 Q By someone in The White House? 22 A It had to be someone affiliated 540 1 with this case. It had to be an attorney. 2 Q An attorney in The White House 3 Counsel's Office? 4 A I wish I could give you a better 5 answer, but I can't. 6 Q Did you discuss this document, 7 Exhibit 9, with anyone before you signed it? 8 A I don't remember discussing it. It 9 seems logical that I would have. 10 Q But you don't remember? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you provide anyone the 13 information contained in this affidavit 14 before you signed it? 15 A No. 16 Q How did the person who prepared 17 this affidavit get the information which is 18 contained in it? 19 A Well, it's pretty clear that the 20 information must have come from either Sally 21 Paxton or Mr. Gilligan. 22 Q What makes that clear? 541 1 A Well, they're the people who are 2 cited here. Who else would have known the 3 information? 4 Q Did you discuss this affidavit 5 before you signed it with either Ms. Paxton 6 or Mr. Gilligan? 7 A I don't remember doing so, but I 8 may have. 9 Q Did you make any changes on this 10 affidavit when you received it, before the 11 time that you signed it? 12 A I don't remember doing that. 13 Q Would there be records in your 14 office or at The White House as to how you 15 received this affidavit prior to signature? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you know of any such records? 19 A No, I don't. I think if it were an 20 internally -- if the document was given to me 21 internally by someone in the Counsel's 22 Office, I don't believe there would be any 542 1 record of that. 2 Q The words contained in this 3 affidavit, Exhibit 9, are not your own; 4 they're somebody else's? 5 A The preparation of this was done by 6 someone else. I looked it over. I was 7 comfortable with it, and I signed it. 8 Q They weren't your words, correct? 9 A No. 10 Q With regard to paragraph 3, it 11 says, "I'm reluctant to discuss in this 12 publicly filed declaration, an affidavit, the 13 legal advice that I received from Ms. Paxton 14 and Mr. Gilligan in the course of preparing 15 for my deposition, for fear of disclosing 16 matters protected by my attorney-client 17 privilege." 18 Who discussed with you whether or 19 not putting the legal advice in this 20 affidavit would disclose matters protected by 21 the attorney-client privilege? 22 A I would have to guess. It was 543 1 either Mr. Gilligan or Ms. Paxton. 2 Q You don't remember? 3 A No. 4 Q In fact, no such conversation 5 occurred before you signed this declaration? 6 A I do not remember. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: You can change it. 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 9 video record at 1:12. 10 (Discussion off the record) 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 12 video record at 1:15. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Referring to paragraph 4 of your 15 affidavit, "During the first day of 16 questioning on July 30 (sic), plaintiffs' 17 counsel asked me about a request to ORM for 18 documents pertaining to Kathleen Willey." 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm sorry. 20 We're off. I'm having some technical 21 problems. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: That's okay. Take 544 1 your time. 2 (Recess) 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 4 video record at 1:18. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Paragraph 4, let me read that to 7 you again, Exhibit 9, your affidavit 8 declaration. "During the first day of 9 questioning on July 30 (sic), plaintiffs' 10 counsel asked me about a request to ORM for 11 documents relating to Kathleen Willey. I 12 testified that, although I did not remember 13 who made the request, it had probably come 14 from The White House's Counsel's Office, 15 because it pertained to a possible legal 16 matter," and it cites the deposition of Terry 17 Good, dated June 30, 1998, at 248 to 251:5. 18 Before you signed this declaration, 19 you did not check the actual transcript of 20 your deposition dated June 30, 1998; did you, 21 Mr. Good? 22 A No, I probably did not. 545 1 Q You simply relied on whoever had 2 prepared this declaration? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Paragraph 5, "Plaintiffs' counsel 5 subsequently asked, 'When the Kathleen Willey 6 letters were retrieved and provided to the 7 Counsel's Office, was there any instruction 8 from the Counsel's Office not to release 9 them, unless they got the permission of 10 Kathleen Willey?'" Same answer? You didn't 11 look at the transcript with regard to that 12 paragraph before signing this declaration, 13 correct? 14 A No, I did not. 15 Q You then state, "I was instructed 16 not to answer that question at the time, but 17 so far as I am aware, the answer is no." Nor 18 did you check the actual transcript with 19 regard to that response; did you? 20 A No, I did not. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 22 Objection to form. 546 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Then you state, "Neither I nor, to 3 the best of my knowledge, anyone else on the 4 ORM sought or received advice from The White 5 House Counsel's Office as to whether 6 Ms. Willey's permission was required before 7 the documents in question could be provided 8 to the Counsel's Office." 9 A Were you -- was there a question 10 there, Mr. Klayman? 11 Q Yes, did you check any testimony 12 before signing the declaration that concerned 13 that statement? 14 A No. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You then state, "I declare, under 18 penalty of perjury, that the foregoing is 19 true and correct." Do you see that? 20 A I do. 21 Q Did anyone, before you signed this 22 declaration, advise you on what the penalty 547 1 of perjury was? 2 A No. 3 Q Have you since learned what the 4 penalty of perjury is? 5 A Perjury is lying under oath, 6 Mr. Klayman, that much I know. 7 Q Do you have an understanding as to 8 what the penalty is for lying under oath? 9 A I would guess that depends upon the 10 severity of the perjury. 11 Q No one's advised you of that? 12 A No. 13 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the 14 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 10. 15 Have you ever seen an affidavit 16 prepared by Sally Paxton with regard to this 17 case and you? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 19 Vague and ambiguous. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever seen an affidavit or 22 declaration prepared and signed by Sally 548 1 Paxton that makes reference to you, Terry 2 Good? 3 A I believe that there was one signed 4 by Sally Paxton and Jim Gilligan; was there 5 not? 6 Q Have you ever seen it? 7 A If we're talking about the same 8 affidavit, I remember seeing an affidavit 9 signed by at least one; if not both; of those 10 people, in regards to this deposition. 11 Q When did you see them? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q Within the last few months? Within 14 the last few days? Within the last few 15 hours? Have you ever seen them? 16 A Yes, I said that. 17 Q When? 18 A I don't remember a specific time. 19 Q Recently? 20 A No, I think it was some time ago. 21 Probably about the same time as this 22 affidavit that I signed. 549 1 Q The affidavits of Paxton and 2 Gilligan, were they delivered with your 3 affidavit that you subsequently signed? 4 A I don't know. You say delivered? 5 Q Were they given to you before you 6 signed Exhibit 9, which is your declaration 7 affidavit? 8 A I don't recall that. 9 Q In fact, you're not even sure 10 whether you ever saw it, correct? 11 A No, I said I saw it, Mr. Klayman. 12 Q But you can't tell me whether it 13 was before or after you signed your 14 affidavit, which was Exhibit 9? 15 A No, I cannot. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 17 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 18 Exhibit 10. 19 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 10 20 was marked for identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Does this refresh your recollection 550 1 as to whether you've ever seen the 2 declaration of Sally Paxton? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, asked and 4 answered. 5 THE WITNESS: No, quite honestly. 6 I do not remember seeing this. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q This consists of two pages, 9 correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Turn to paragraph 2. Did you ever 12 discuss any part or aspect of this affidavit 13 with Sally Paxton? 14 A Well, I just said I do not remember 15 seeing this one. 16 Q So I take it you've never discussed 17 anything that's in it with Sally Paxton? 18 A What I see, in the second 19 paragraph -- 20 Q I'm not asking you with regard to 21 the second paragraph. Let me withdraw that. 22 Did you ever discuss any part or aspect of 551 1 this declaration affidavit, Exhibit 10, with 2 Sally Paxton? 3 A This affidavit? 4 Q Yes. 5 A Again, I do not remember seeing 6 this affidavit. 7 Q You don't remember discussing any 8 part of it with Ms. Paxton? 9 A I remember the afternoon of the 10 deposition, when this matter came up about my 11 answers, that Mr. Gilligan and Ms. Paxton 12 discussed my understanding. 13 Q I'm asking you, anything from the 14 affidavit itself, did you discuss any part of 15 it as written in this affidavit, Exhibit 10, 16 with Ms. Paxton? 17 A I do not remember discussing with 18 her this affidavit. I remember discussing 19 with her matters that are mentioned, at least 20 in paragraph Section 2. 21 Q Neither Ms. Paxton nor anyone else 22 ever gave you a copy of her declaration 552 1 affidavit, Exhibit 10, and said, please check 2 this to make sure I'm right about what you, 3 Terry Good, told me? 4 A I do not remember seeing this 5 document before. 6 Q Is Ms. Paxton still working at The 7 White House? 8 A Yes, I believe so. 9 Q Have you seen her recently, besides 10 in the deposition today? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: She's not here 12 today, Mr. Klayman. I think I can say 13 without fear of contradiction. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Good point. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you. 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Her presence is here. 18 THE WITNESS: It has been at least 19 several weeks since I have seen her. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: I have to keep that 21 joke between me and my counsel. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: We have one too. 553 1 We'll tell you after this. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: After the case is 3 over? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: No. No. After this 5 session. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Paragraph 4, Ms. Paxton states, "I 8 hesitate to discuss in this publicly filed 9 declaration the legal advice I provided to 10 Mr. Good and others, in the course of 11 preparing them for their depositions, for 12 fear of disclosing matters protected by the 13 attorney-client privilege." 14 What advice, if any, did Ms. Paxton 15 give you with regard to the misimpression 16 that has been the subject of your testimony 17 this morning? 18 A It seemed to me there were two 19 questions there, Mr. Klayman. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: No, there was only 21 one. We can read it back. 22 (The reporter read the record as 554 1 requested.) 2 THE WITNESS: All right. In other 3 words, you started off quoting from Part 4. 4 Then you asked this question. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Right. She says that she can't 7 discuss the advice she gave you with regard 8 to this whole issue, the issue, if you should 9 say I don't remember, if you don't have 100 10 percent certainty. 11 I'm asking you, what advice did she 12 give you? She says she can't provide it 13 here, but the court has now ordered that you 14 testify to it. What advice did she give you? 15 A I believe it was during the 16 afternoon, on that first day of deposition, 17 that Ms. Paxton and Mr. Gilligan talked with 18 me and went over my responses, and again, I 19 don't remember specific language, informed me 20 that I was operating under a misunderstanding 21 about my answers, and I think, in fact, when 22 I came back, Mr. Gilligan walked me through 555 1 several of the questions that had been asked 2 before, and I provided additional 3 information. Beyond the specific -- I'm 4 afraid I can't give you specifics on what she 5 told me. 6 Q Did Ms. Paxton say to you anything 7 to the effect that you screwed up? That's a 8 misimpression? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can't 11 subscribe to the statement that you 12 mentioned. Ms. Paxton is a lady, and she 13 wouldn't use that kind of language. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did she say that you messed up? 16 A I don't remember the specific words 17 she used. 18 Q Did she say that you made a 19 blunder? 20 A Mr. Klayman, I don't remember the 21 specific words. The point was -- I mean, 22 we're in agreement here -- she and 556 1 Mr. Gilligan informed me that I was operating 2 under a misunderstanding. As far as the 3 specific words that were used, I would hope 4 that that's not too crucial. 5 Q Did Ms. Paxton and/or Mr. Gilligan 6 give you advice on how to answer questions 7 before your initial deposition here to 8 Judicial Watch on June 30, 1998? 9 A They undoubtedly went over some 10 things with me. I don't remember the 11 specifics. Clearly, whatever they said, did 12 not make me aware, other than this 13 understanding that I was operating under, as 14 I came into your deposition continuing with 15 that approach. 16 Q They discussed with you how to 17 handle questions that you didn't have a 18 complete memory about? 19 A I don't remember that question 20 being discussed. 21 Q They discussed with you how to 22 handle questions when it called for 557 1 speculation? 2 A I don't remember that being 3 discussed. 4 Q They discussed with you how to 5 handle questions when your memory wasn't 100 6 percent perfect? 7 A I don't remember that. Had that 8 been discussed and had I understood it, I 9 would not have been operating under the 10 misunderstanding that I had, when I went into 11 that deposition. 12 Q If that's the case, then how could 13 you have signed your affidavit, your 14 declaration, which is Exhibit 9, paragraph 2 15 wherein you state, "In preparation for the 16 deposition, I met several times with Sally 17 Paxton and James Gilligan. Neither on these 18 occasions, nor at any other time, did either 19 Ms. Paxton or Mr. Gilligan instruct me that I 20 should answer questions that I did not 21 remember, or I do not recall, if my 22 recollection of the facts was less than 558 1 certain or sure. At no time did Ms. Paxton 2 or Mr. Gilligan make any suggestion to that 3 effect." 4 If you don't have a memory of what 5 was discussed in that regard, then how can 6 you sign your declaration, particularly 7 paragraph 2? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 9 Vague, argumentative. 10 (Witness conferred with counsel) 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to the 12 consultation. 13 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, the last 14 paragraph in the civility pamphlet talked 15 about lunch before 2:00. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I agree, and I will 17 break after we get the response here. Did it 18 talk about lunch? 19 MR. GREEN: Yes, it did. It says, 20 denying your adversary lunch is a civil -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Does it talk about 22 what time zone you're on? 559 1 MR. GREEN: Whatever time zone 2 you're on. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Well, we 4 have to go by that pamphlet, so we'll wrap it 5 up. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: If it's not in 7 there, I propose an amendment. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: We have to have the 9 time zone. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Very well. 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I do not 12 remember now -- this is about a year later -- 13 but I would say to you, does it stand to 14 reason that, had they given me that advice in 15 those meetings leading up to that, it doesn't 16 make sense, does it, that I would have come 17 into these -- into this deposition, used 18 those answers, and then have you and Judge 19 Lamberth rake me over the coals for it? I 20 mean, that just doesn't make sense. They 21 would not have given me that kind of advice. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 560 1 Q My question was, in paragraph 2 of 2 your declaration, Exhibit 9, you make 3 unequivocal statements, which granted, other 4 people wrote for you -- 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q That you remember exactly what was 8 discussed between Ms. Paxton and Mr. Gilligan 9 and yourself. In fact, you don't have a 10 recollection of that, correct? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 12 Vague and ambiguous, mischaracterizes, 13 argumentative. 14 MR. GREEN: Just a minute. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Calls for a yes or no. 17 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, I need to 18 object, because your paraphrasing of what you 19 claim paragraph 2 states is totally 20 incorrect. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, can you go to 22 another room, please, Mr. Good? 561 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Can you go get us 2 lunch? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: We're going to break 4 after this line is concluded, but already 5 we've tainted the testimony. 6 MR. GREEN: Paragraph 2 does not 7 state that he recalls the particular 8 substance of his conversations with 9 Ms. Paxton and Mr. Gilligan. In contrast, 10 what is averse is that he has one specific 11 recollection that they did not make a 12 particular suggestion to him, period. That's 13 what paragraph 2 says. Paragraph 2 is not a 14 surrogate for the statement or testimony out 15 of the mouth of my client, that he now can 16 remember the totality of what was discussed 17 with Ms. Paxton or Mr. Gilligan. 18 As I heard you phrase that 19 question, that was your preamble, and I think 20 that's completely inaccurate, and if you're 21 going to use this document and the text, then 22 I invite you please to use it appropriately 562 1 and accurately. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's bring the 3 witness back. I ask that when he comes back, 4 we get the witness's response. I understand 5 your statement on the record, with your 6 objection, unfettered response. 7 MR. GREEN: I'm going to give you 8 his unfettered response. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want yours -- 10 MR. GREEN: If you're suggesting -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Please go out again, 12 Mr. Good. 13 MR. GREEN: You're overly cautious 14 and worried about tainting this witness when 15 counsel makes some general remarks on the 16 record. All I was about to say is that I 17 have a perfect right to consult with him, and 18 if I feel it necessary to do so, I'll do 19 that. I don't want you to take from that 20 there's anything going on that lawyers don't 21 traditionally do in the course of 22 representing witnesses at depositions. It 563 1 happens every day. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the court 3 take for whatever the court wants to take, 4 but we have a history in this particular 5 matter, and that's why it's in everybody's 6 best interest to have the witness respond. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: I object to that 8 remark about -- just let me finish. I object 9 to that remark about a history, as being 10 unfounded. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I didn't 12 characterize what the history was. Let's 13 bring him back. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: The indication was 15 clear. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's bring him back. 17 That's why it's good to have a video record. 18 I think people can judge the -- 19 MR. GREEN: The video record will 20 serve us well. I'm very happy we're on video 21 record. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the 564 1 pending question for the witness? 2 (The reporter read the record as 3 requested.) 4 THE WITNESS: At this point in 5 time, I do not have a recollection of that, 6 no, but again I would repeat, it does not 7 stand to reason that they would have told me 8 this prior to the deposition, and then 9 halfway through, turned around and said, 10 Terry, we've incorrectly advised you. That 11 didn't happen. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take lunch. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 14 video record at 1:41. 15 (Whereupon, at 1:41 p.m., a 16 luncheon recess was taken.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 565 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (2:51 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 TERRY W. GOOD 5 was recalled as a witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 9 CONTINUED 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 11 video record at 2:51. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 13 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 14 Exhibit 11. 15 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 11 16 was marked for identification.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 11 19 before? 20 A I do not remember seeing this 21 document before. 22 Q Mr. Good, do you remember when we 566 1 had our last session, our last deposition 2 session on June 30, we went down to the 3 court, and we had a discussion with the 4 judge, and we came back and we resumed your 5 testimony, and I asked you whether you had 6 discussed the subject of Ms. Willey during 7 the period between the court's hearing and 8 your coming back into this room and 9 testifying? Do you remember that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you remember that you responded 12 that you couldn't remember what was 13 discussed? 14 A Yes. 15 Q But you also told us under oath 16 that on the trip back that there was a cab 17 driver present and that you had a discussion 18 with Mr. Gilligan in the cab? Do you 19 remember that? 20 A You asked me two questions. There 21 was a cab driver in the cab. 22 Q Right. 567 1 A The second part of that was? 2 Q That you had had discussions with 3 Mr. Gilligan and other Justice Department 4 lawyers in the cab coming back from the court 5 hearing? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 8 exactly what my answer was in regards to that 9 question. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What's your memory today? Did you 12 have discussions between the time that you 13 left the hearing in front of Judge Lamberth 14 and your arrival back in this deposition room 15 at Judicial Watch with your then counsel? 16 A I'm sure there was talk in the cab, 17 Mr. Klayman, but as I said then and 18 unfortunately as I would have to say now, I 19 do not remember what those discussions were. 20 Q Those discussions concerned in part 21 Ms. Kathleen Willey? 22 A Again, I would say to you I do not 568 1 remember any -- the subject nature of those 2 discussions. 3 Q Since the date of your depositions 4 on June 30, 1998, and July 2, 1998, have you 5 discussed that cab ride with anyone? 6 A The dates again were between the 7 first deposition and the second deposition, 8 just several days. Is that correct? 9 Q No. Let's just say after June 30, 10 1998, to date, have you discussed that cab 11 ride with anyone? 12 A Other than to tell counsel how 13 disappointed I was that I didn't have the 14 foresight, at the time you asked me the 15 question, to turn to Mr. Gilligan and ask him 16 if he could do something to get me off dead 17 center on that because I simply could not 18 remember anything. 19 Q What did you mean get you off dead 20 center? 21 A I had a mental block on that. I 22 could not remember anything, and I would have 569 1 liked to have hoped that he would have said, 2 well, we discussed this and this and this do 3 you remember anything about that? 4 Unfortunately, I didn't, and so to this day 5 I'm still unable to give you an answer to 6 your question, and I'm sorry about that. 7 Q Mr. Gilligan, however, based on 8 your experience in this whole situation, may 9 be able to shed light on that conversation? 10 A Obviously, I would hope so. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you asked Mr. Gilligan to come 14 forward with what was discussed during that 15 cab ride? 16 A No, I have not. 17 Q Have you spoken with Mr. Gilligan 18 about that cab ride since your last 19 deposition? 20 A I don't remember talking to him 21 about that, no. 22 Q Did you talk to anybody else about 570 1 it? 2 A I mentioned that to counsel that 3 are with me here today. 4 Q Which counsel are they? 5 A Well, Mr. Hemmersbaugh, I think, 6 for one. I think that was the discussion I 7 had with him. Mr. Green was not present for 8 that. 9 Q Did you discuss with 10 Mr. Hemmersbaugh what was discussed during 11 that conversation? 12 MR. GREEN: I think what was 13 discussed between Mr. Good and me or my 14 colleagues at Sidley & Austin has got to be 15 off-limits, I would think. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, but here's the 17 question. Mr. Good says he can't remember, 18 but if Mr. Good discussed with 19 Mr. Hemmersbaugh or with you matters for 20 which he can conjure up a memory, then it is 21 quite relevant. So I'm not asking for legal 22 advice. 571 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q But all I'm saying is did you, 3 Mr. Good, discuss with either of your counsel 4 here from Sidley & Austin anything with 5 regard to what was discussed between you and 6 Mr. Gilligan on that cab ride back from the 7 courthouse? 8 MR. GREEN: Same objection. That 9 invades our attorney-client privilege and 10 also I think that's without the scope of this 11 order, so I feel constrained and reluctantly 12 do so, but instruct him not to answer. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not beyond the 14 scope of the order, Mr. Green, because the 15 order says that we can go over any matter for 16 which he could not recall, could not 17 remember, or any equivalent thereof. 18 MR. GREEN: I don't interpret that 19 to extend to the right to invade his 20 privilege with me or my colleagues. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: But here's the 22 problem I'm having. Mr. Good or you as 572 1 counsel, although certainly the testimony 2 should come from Mr. Good, can confirm that 3 the subject of that conversation in the cab 4 ride back from the courthouse with 5 Mr. Gilligan was not discussed with you. 6 You can eliminate this whole issue 7 through his testimony that it wasn't 8 discussed. 9 MR. GREEN: Rephrase the question 10 and I'll see whether I'll let him answer one 11 question here if you phrase it correctly in a 12 way that's acceptable. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you discuss with either of your 15 counsel from Sidley & Austin that are here 16 with you today anything related to that 17 conversation between you and Mr. Gilligan 18 which you were able to recall for your 19 counsel -- 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 21 Mischaracterizes the record. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 573 1 Q But cannot recall for us here 2 today. 3 MR. GREEN: If you'll concede this 4 is not a waiver of any privilege, I get that 5 concession from you, I'll allow him to answer 6 that one question to the best of his ability. 7 Do you so concede? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not a waiver for 9 purposes of this particular answer. 10 MR. GREEN: Do you have a 11 recollection? 12 THE WITNESS: Let me repeat what I 13 attempted to say earlier. The discussion 14 with counsel was in regards to what I wished 15 I would have done at the time of the 16 deposition when you asked me the question 17 initially. I wished I would have turned to 18 Mr. Gilligan and said, Jim, get me off dead 19 center here. I can't remember what was 20 discussed on that cab ride, and that's what I 21 said to counsel. I did not discuss with them 22 any of the subjects that might have been 574 1 discussed in the cab because I couldn't 2 remember. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q In the cab ride back from the 5 courthouse was only Mr. Gilligan present with 6 you, or was there another lawyer that was 7 also there? 8 A I believe Ms. Paxton was with us 9 and, I don't know, I might address that to 10 Mr. Gaffney. I don't know if he was in the 11 cab. I don't remember. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Were you there, 13 Mr. Gaffney? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Excuse me? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Were you there on the 16 cab ride back? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to 18 provide testimony. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't you get 20 Mr. Good off the hook and let us know? 21 You're refusing to tell us? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here giving 575 1 testimony, Mr. Klayman. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So you think Mr. Gaffney might have 4 been in that cab? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form, 6 mischaracterizes. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q So any one of those three people 10 could have gotten you off the hook, according 11 to the way you've now looked at the 12 situation, at the time I asked you the 13 question as to what was discussed on that cab 14 ride? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q In other words, it wasn't just 19 Mr. Gilligan that could have gotten you off 20 the hook but Ms. Paxton or Mr. Gaffney, too? 21 A This comment about getting me off 22 the hook, they might have been able to give 576 1 me some indication as to what was talked 2 about, and that might have refreshed my 3 memory and I would have been in a position 4 then perhaps to go ahead. 5 Q Well, when you came back from the 6 courthouse that day you had had discussions 7 in the cab, correct? You just can't remember 8 what was discussed? 9 A Yes. I can see myself looking out 10 the window and observing things while they 11 might have been discussing legal matters. 12 That's conceivable. 13 Q But you also participated in the 14 conversation? 15 A That's what I don't remember. 16 Q What I'm trying to understand is 17 why is it, since I asked you the question 18 virtually upon your return to the deposition 19 room after the hearing, that you forgot? Do 20 you have an explanation for that? 21 MR. GREEN: He forgot. That's his 22 explanation. 577 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Not yours, Mr. Green. 2 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, this gets 3 us nowhere. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 MR. GREEN: Do you know why you 7 forgot? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I please ask the 9 question? 10 MR. GREEN: I'm trying to move this 11 along. 12 THE WITNESS: I do not know why I 13 forgot. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Were you on any medication that 16 day? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you had experiences in your 19 past for any medical reason where you've 20 forgotten things? 21 A Not for medical but other reasons, 22 yes. 578 1 Q What other reasons? 2 A I think if you talk to my family 3 and ask my children, they'll say it with a 4 laugh, but they'll say don't ask Dad, he 5 doesn't remember. 6 Q Have you ever had an instance where 7 you've forgotten what happened within an hour 8 of the event? 9 A If you ask my staff, they, too, 10 will tell you Terry doesn't always remember 11 things. 12 Q Well, your having gone over to the 13 courthouse and our having argued about your 14 testimony was not a pleasant experience, was 15 it? 16 A I was in the pew, Mr. Klayman. I 17 was sitting there as an observer. To me it 18 was an educational experience. It was 19 neither pleasant nor unpleasant. 20 Q But it was obviously an experience 21 which you yourself were involved in in terms 22 of your own conduct, correct? 579 1 A Well, the whole day was that. 2 Q It was a very stressful day, 3 correct? 4 A I don't know that it was stressful. 5 I was not happy with the way some of the 6 things were handled because this was a 7 deposition unlike any other depositions that 8 I'd participated in. I mentioned to your 9 associate, Tom, one point after this was all 10 over with, I said those were good questions 11 you gave him. I still feel that way, and 12 I've complimented you on several occasions. 13 Your questions are good, in my opinion. 14 Stressful, only in the sense that it's 15 difficult for me to remember some of these 16 things. 17 One other thing I would like to get 18 on the record. I'm as interested as you are 19 in resolving this. My name is on that list 20 that appeared there, too. A lot of my 21 friends are on that list. I would very much 22 like to clear this mystery up. So I'm not 580 1 working at cross-purposes with you, but you 2 make it very difficult for me. 3 I wish the two of us could sit 4 down. I wish you could come over to my 5 office. I have no problem with that. I wish 6 I could walk you through our office and show 7 you how we do things, but evidently that's 8 not permitted. 9 Q Are you willing to sit down one on 10 one with no one present with Judge Lamberth 11 and tell him what you know? 12 A What I tell him would be no 13 different than what I'm telling you now. My 14 word is my bond. 15 Q Are you willing to do that without 16 anyone else present? 17 A Absolutely. 18 Q And answer the judge's questions? 19 A Absolutely. 20 Q Without any other lawyer there or 21 anybody else? 22 A I have no problem with that. 581 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Or you, Mr. Klayman? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me, 3 Mr. Gilligan? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Or you present 5 either? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I said no other 7 lawyer. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: All right. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I will relay that to 10 the judge. 11 THE WITNESS: I would be happy to 12 do that, if that would speed this whole 13 process up. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You do currently work for the 16 Clinton White House, correct? 17 A I am on The White House payroll as 18 I have been since 1970 something. I am part 19 of a group of people that unofficially is 20 known as career staff. We serve like the 21 political staff at the pleasure of the 22 President. 582 1 We are not associated with any 2 particular President or any particular party. 3 I take great pride if when a person leaves 4 the staff, they can come up to me and say, 5 Terry, I've worked with you for two years, 6 four years, eight years, and I still don't 7 know whether you're a Republican or a 8 Democrat. 9 And when I interview somebody for a 10 job, I am very specific. I ask them, do you 11 have any partisan political activity in your 12 background? And if they say yes, I will tell 13 them, you don't want to work here because we 14 serve many different Presidents and many 15 different administrations, and if you're 16 terribly loyal to one, you will find it a 17 very difficult experience to work for 18 another. So you get Judge Lamberth, and I'll 19 meet him. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that permissible, 21 Mr. Green? 22 MR. GREEN: I'm not going to decide 583 1 what my view is on that right now. I just 2 invite Terry, invite you to answer the 3 questions as asked and let's move on. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Turn to page 211 of your 6 transcript. That's Exhibit 6 I believe. 7 A What page was that? 8 Q 211. Do you see where it says at 9 the bottom line 19, and I'm asking you the 10 question, since the time that we broke for 11 the court hearing and returned, you've been 12 in the presence of anyone other than your 13 counsel? 14 Answer: I was in a taxicab, so 15 obviously I was in the presence of two cab 16 drivers. There were two cab drivers there? 17 A One cab going over, one cab coming 18 back. My high school math, one and one 19 equals two. 20 Q So you had discussions going over 21 as well as coming back? 22 A I don't think that's the question. 584 1 Q That's my question here. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: All I can say is I'm 4 sure there was conversation in the cabs going 5 over and coming back. It stands to reason. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Who was in the cab going over? 8 A I'm sure the same people who were 9 in the cab coming back, Mr. Gilligan and 10 Ms. Paxton, myself, and I think Mr. Gaffney. 11 Q So I was asking you questions about 12 the cab coming back. You understood that, 13 correct? 14 A Well, I thought you then went ahead 15 to ask about both cab rides. 16 Q I am now, but before I asked you 17 about both cab rides, you understood I was 18 asking you about the cab coming back from the 19 courthouse? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What was discussed in the cab ride 22 going to the courthouse? 585 1 A I don't remember that either. 2 Q Do you remember the general subject 3 matter? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q Now, turn to page 213. Do you see 6 where you state at line 16, I don't recall 7 any discussions about Kathleen Willey in 8 either the cab going over or coming back. Do 9 you see that? 10 A I do. 11 Q Now, when you answered that 12 question, you were harboring the 13 misimpression that unless you had 100 percent 14 recall, that you should say I don't remember. 15 Correct? 16 A If that precedes the discussions 17 about that, that question and that answer 18 took place before we had the subsequent 19 discussions about my understanding or 20 misunderstanding. 21 Q Now, at the time you came back from 22 the cab ride, on June 30, 1998, but for your 586 1 misimpression that unless you had 100 percent 2 recall, you should say I don't remember, you 3 actually did remember that discussion in the 4 cab ride at that time, correct? 5 A No, I did not. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q In fact, it's your contention, is 9 it not, that over the passage of the last 10 year, that's when you've forgotten what that 11 conversation was? 12 A No, sir. No, sir. Again, I will 13 repeat. Had I the foresight, I would have 14 turned to Mr. Gilligan at the time you asked 15 me that question and said, Jim, help me out 16 on this. I'm drawing a blank. But I didn't 17 and I have to live with it, and I knew my 18 answer would create the kind of consternation 19 that's shown on your face. 20 Q When was it that you learned you 21 were coming back to answer questions, if at 22 all, about this particular issue, the cab 587 1 ride? 2 A When did I learn about it? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A At the time you asked me the 5 questions. 6 Q Have you ever learned before I 7 asked you the question about the cab ride, 8 today after lunch, that you were going to 9 have to answer questions about that cab ride 10 again, at this deposition today? 11 MR. GREEN: You mean specifically 12 about the cab ride? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: Where is the 15 document? 16 MR. GREEN: Do you want the court's 17 order? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Wasn't there 19 something -- it's in this document, 20 Mr. Klayman. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q What exhibit are you referring to? 588 1 MR. GREEN: Five. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Exhibit 5, is that correct? 4 A Well, that's what's in here. I 5 thought there was another document that made 6 reference to what would be covered in this. 7 Q That's the court's order of 8 December 7, 1998? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When did you see that court order 11 of December 7, 1998? When did you see it for 12 the first time? 13 A Probably at some point in 14 discussions with counsel there. 15 Q Which counsel? 16 A Mr. Green and Mr. Hemmersbaugh at 17 Sidley & Austin. 18 Q When did you have those 19 discussions, approximately? 20 A Well, the last two were within the 21 last several weeks. An earlier, an initial 22 meeting, with Mr. Green some time ago. 589 1 Q About how long ago? 2 MR. GREEN: Give him your best 3 recollection. 4 THE WITNESS: Two months. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q But the actual December 7, 1998 7 order was not shown to you except in the last 8 few weeks? 9 A That's what I recall, yes. 10 Q You didn't learn of the contents of 11 the December 7, 1998 order until the last two 12 weeks? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q During the time between your last 15 deposition in late June, early July 1998, and 16 the last two weeks, did Mr. Gilligan, 17 Ms. Shapiro, or anyone from the Clinton 18 Justice Department contact you and ask you to 19 try to recollect what you had said during 20 that cab ride, if anything? 21 A I don't remember that. 22 Q Or the cab ride to the courthouse? 590 1 A No, I don't remember. 2 Q Either cab ride? 3 A No. That's right. 4 Q During that period, you were 5 unaware that in fact you were actually going 6 to have to come back and testify again, until 7 you met with your counsel in the last few 8 weeks? 9 A I believe White House counsel was 10 the first to inform me that I was going to 11 have the pleasure of coming back to talk with 12 you. 13 Q When did that White House counsel 14 tell you that? 15 A I think it was Ms. Peterson, and I 16 don't remember exactly when. It was three 17 months ago. I'm not sure. 18 Q During that period between the 19 dates of your last deposition, end of June, 20 early July 1998, and the present, you didn't 21 make any request of Mr. Gilligan, 22 Ms. Shapiro, or any Justice Department 591 1 counsel to come forward and tell Judicial 2 Watch and the court what had occurred during 3 those cab rides, correct? 4 A No. 5 Q The reason you didn't do that is 6 because you didn't even know it was an issue 7 anymore? In other words, if you had known in 8 and around December 7, 1998 that the court 9 was allowing Judicial Watch to get back into 10 this issue of the cab rides, you would have 11 told Gilligan and Justice Department counsel 12 to come forward and give that information to 13 Judicial Watch and the court, correct? 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know enough 16 about the rules of legal procedure, 17 Mr. Klayman. That would not have been my 18 call. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q But you just told me that if you 21 had a chance to reflect at your deposition 22 that day, you would have told Gilligan to get 592 1 you off the hook, correct? 2 A I would have asked. 3 Q Right. Correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Were you aware at that time that 6 the discussions in the cab, that those were 7 being claimed as subject to attorney-client 8 privilege? You were aware of that, correct? 9 You were there. You heard the objection? 10 A At the time of the deposition? 11 Q Yes. 12 A Yes. 13 Q You were aware that the 14 attorney-client privilege belonged to you, 15 not to Mr. Gilligan, correct? That that was 16 your privilege as the client. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm going to object 18 to your earlier question, Mr. Klayman, 19 mischaracterizes the record. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Correct? You can respond. 22 A I'm not sure I knew the finer 593 1 niceties of the law on that issue, no. 2 Q Have you since learned those finer 3 niceties? 4 A No. This is something new to me, 5 that you're telling me. 6 Q Did Mr. Gilligan or anyone else at 7 the Justice Department ever tell you, either 8 at the earlier deposition where this issue 9 arose on the cab rides or thereafter, 10 Mr. Good, you can tell us to give the 11 information to the court and Judicial Watch 12 about those cab rides because this is your 13 attorney-client privilege? You can tell us 14 that you're not asserting it, and we'll give 15 that? 16 A No. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 18 Mischaracterizes the law. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Before you signed your affidavit, 21 which was Exhibit 9, you signed it on August 22 19, 1998. Correct? 594 1 A If that's the date that's on there, 2 that's when I signed it, yes. 3 Q Have you signed any other 4 declarations or affidavits with regard to 5 this lawsuit? 6 A I don't remember any. 7 Q But you may have? 8 A I don't know what they would have 9 been or why. 10 Q Do you know of a David Anderson at 11 the Department of Justice? 12 A I recall a gentleman by that name 13 in the Justice Department. 14 Q He was a lawyer on the Healthcare 15 Task Force case, correct? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall him 18 working on that one, but if you say he did, 19 I'll take your word for it. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You testified previously that -- 22 was it a Mr. Souders? 595 1 A Souders, S-o-u-d-e-r-s. 2 Q Had given you advice with regard to 3 how to answer questions at deposition in the 4 Healthcare Task Force case? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did Mr. Anderson also give you such 7 advice? 8 A I do not remember Mr. Anderson 9 being part of the team of lawyers. 10 Q But he may have. You just don't 11 remember? 12 A No, I'm pretty sure he was not. I 13 had met him before in the previous 14 administration. 15 Q Where had you met him at a previous 16 administration? 17 A At some meeting in The White House, 18 the Roosevelt Room, I can remember him being 19 there. I don't remember what the meeting was 20 about. I think I've been in meetings at 21 least twice with him. 22 Q I think you'd concede that your 596 1 memory's less than perfect, correct? 2 A There are three things I wish I had 3 more of. I wish I could sing, I wish I could 4 dance, and I wish I had a better memory. 5 Q So given the fact that your memory 6 is not perfect, is it possible that you did 7 have contact with Mr. Anderson during the 8 Healthcare Task Force case? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Calls 10 for speculation. 11 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I'm quite 12 sure of that. If you check your records I do 13 not think you'll find Mr. Anderson and I had 14 any contact. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q So you're absolutely 100 percent 17 sure? 18 A Yes. 19 MR. GREEN: Wait a minute. Why do 20 we just keep hashing over these answers, 21 Mr. Klayman? The witness gave you his 22 answer. We've got to keep moving forward 597 1 here. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm moving forward. 3 I think I'm doing quite well, thank you. 4 MR. GREEN: That's a subject of 5 different opinions. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: The only one that 7 counts is the court's. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Turn your attention back to 10 Exhibit 4. Showing you Exhibit 4, you 11 previously testified that this references the 12 times that you visited the room where the FBI 13 file material, the subject of this case, was 14 stored? 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Two objections to 16 form. It's a mischaracterization of 17 testimony and, second, I renew my objection 18 that this is beyond the authorized scope of 19 questioning under the judge's December 7 20 order. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 598 1 A Several clarifications there. Room 2 563 was a room in which those records were 3 kept; however, I don't believe the records 4 were up there during this period of time in 5 '93. 6 Q Where were the records at that 7 time? 8 A I believe those were still under 9 the custody of Mr. Livingstone. 10 Q But you're not sure? 11 A The record will show when those 12 were transferred. We went over that in the 13 earlier deposition. Mr. Klayman, if you have 14 copies of that printout of the transfer of 15 the boxes to my custody, the date will be on 16 that, and I believe it was after June of '93. 17 Q Then why did you produce this 18 document? 19 A Because it was in my file, and it 20 gave you some indication of the manner in 21 which we attempted to maintain some control 22 on who went in and who came out of that Room 599 1 563. 2 Q Now, on this document there are 3 certain names. One is Clark. What is the 4 reference to Clark? 5 A That column is a column in which we 6 would write down the name of the Secret 7 Service agent down in the control center who 8 received the telephone call from us saying we 9 are now going to secure the room and lock it 10 up. 11 Q Was his name Clark? 12 A The man identified himself on the 13 phone as Mr. Clark. 14 Q Is this your handwriting? 15 A That first entry is mine. 16 Q The second entry, 1/22/93? 17 A Randy Nelson. 18 Q Is that his handwriting? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What does WHCC stand for? 21 A White House Control Center. 22 Q Who was Randy Nelson? 600 1 A The young man on my staff who has 2 subsequently passed away. 3 Q Look at the entry 3/16/93. It says 4 Scherer -- what does that say there? 5 A I'm at a loss to read that. I 6 think it may be USSS as it is in the other 7 column. Unfortunately, there's no initial of 8 the records management person there in that 9 last column. 10 Q But the top says Scherer, correct? 11 A That's my reading of it. 12 Q Does that refer to Brooke Scherer? 13 A That refers to a Secret Service 14 agent working in The White House Control 15 Center. 16 Q Does that refer to Cody Scherer? 17 A That refers to a Secret Service 18 agent working in the control center. 19 Q What was his first name? 20 A I don't know his first name. 21 Q How did Mr. Nelson pass away? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 601 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q If you know. 3 MR. GREEN: I think that's probably 4 outside the judge's order. Why don't you 5 just -- 6 THE WITNESS: I think you had best 7 address that to someone other than me. Talk 8 to his parents. 9 MR. GREEN: Let's ask another 10 question, please. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q What is the entry below that? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q 4/1/93? 16 A That the records management person 17 who was in there on that occasion was Tom 18 Taggart. That's his initials, TT. 19 Q What's Kettner? 20 A Again, that's the name of the 21 Secret Service agent. 22 Q What was his name? 602 1 A Mr. Klayman, I don't know these 2 people that well. They work down in a room 3 that I don't visit. We simply deal with them 4 over the phone. 5 Q The reference 4/13/93 RN, is that 6 Randy Nelson again? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q 5/12/93, Randy Nelson? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q 5/11/93, is that WR? 11 A William Roberts, a gentleman who I 12 mentioned in the previous deposition to you 13 who has since retired. 14 Q 5/18/93, M -- is that a P? 15 A I believe it's an F. I believe 16 that stands for Myra Freeman. 17 Q Where did he work? 18 A It's a woman. She works in the 19 Office of Records Management. 20 Q Is she still there? 21 A She is still there. 22 Q And the last one, 6/16/93? 603 1 A 6/16/93, there are two initials 2 there. One is Tom Taggart, and the other is 3 a member of the FBI, Ray -- last name starts 4 with an M. I do not remember it. 5 Q Do you know why any of these people 6 as listed on Exhibit 4 entered Room 563? 7 A Well, once again, that's a file 8 room. We have boxes up there. And it's 9 either to put more boxes up there or to 10 recall a box because someone's asking for it. 11 Q Why did the FBI enter Room 563? 12 A Because those records, the records 13 of the Travel Office, were placed up there. 14 Q So during this period of time 15 Travel Office records -- the period of time 16 listed on Exhibit 4 -- were in Room 563? 17 A Well, certainly they weren't there 18 on January 19, '93. They were put up there 19 at some point during this time period. 20 Q At what time do you believe they 21 were put up there? 22 A Well, obviously on 6/16 they were 604 1 either there or the reason for the visit was 2 to check out the room to see what it was like 3 before they were put there. 4 Q What leads you to believe that 6/16 5 related to travel records? 6 A Well, because that would have been 7 the only reason for Ray to have been in that 8 room. He was one of the people assigned to 9 work on that matter. 10 Q What was he assigned to work on, 11 specifically? What was the specific task 12 that he was assigned to do? 13 A He was working on -- it's hard for 14 me to remember exactly what he was working 15 on, but he was responsible for helping to 16 catalog and inventory, identify the records. 17 Q You are aware that the FBI file of 18 Billy Dale was obtained by The White House. 19 Correct? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 605 1 Q You can respond. 2 A The Billy Dale file was amongst the 3 records, yes. 4 Q The FBI file of Billy Dale was in 5 Room 563 on June 16, 1993? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: Again, please 8 understand that I am not in a position to say 9 to you as of 6/16 those records were up 10 there, but the very fact that Ray's initials 11 are on there leads me to believe that if they 12 weren't there they were making preparations 13 to put them up there. Again, that 14 information is well documented, Mr. Klayman. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Has anyone else whose name appears 17 on Exhibit 4 passed away since the entries? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to that 19 question. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know about 21 Ray, but all the rest of us are still 22 kicking. 606 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the 2 next document be marked as Exhibit 12. This 3 is a memorandum of June 11, 1993. It's a 4 memorandum for Lieutenant Ronald Mussolino, 5 Control Center USSS, from Terry Good, 6 Director, on security for Room 563, OEOB. 7 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 12 8 was marked for identification.) 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Object that any 10 questions you might have about this document, 11 Mr. Klayman, are beyond the scope of 12 authorized questioning in the judge's 13 December 7, 1998 -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: You can have a 15 running objection. We spent some time on 16 that this morning. I know we spent some time 17 on that this morning. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Good, do you see this document? 20 It's in that package of documents that you 21 produced this morning. 22 A That's correct. 607 1 Q Where was this record found such 2 that you produced it to Judicial Watch today? 3 A This was one of those that I had in 4 my file. 5 Q The government file that you 6 took -- 7 A It's a convenience file. 8 Q The convenience file which you 9 first identified as your personal file? 10 A Personal in the sense that it's one 11 that I use for my convenience file. I'm 12 sorry if that caused you great confusion. 13 Q Now, this document reflects that 14 you're ordering the maintenance of a complete 15 and accurate log of all entries into Room 16 563, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Prior to June 11, 1993, was there 19 no such complete and accurate log? 20 A This is a representation of what we 21 were using then, and it was complete and 22 accurate. 608 1 Q It was complete and accurate even 2 before June 11, 1993? 3 A That's right. 4 Q But after June 11, 1993, it's 5 complete and accurate as well, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You have that complete log in your 8 office today, do you not? 9 A I do not have it in my office, but 10 it's in the Office of Records Management, 11 yes, unless the FBI has it as part of their 12 collection of material relating to the Travel 13 Office. 14 Q If, for instance, Hillary Clinton 15 entered into Room 563, her name would be on 16 that log, correct? 17 A Our intentions were here to have 18 anybody who went into that room logged. 19 Q Including Mrs. Clinton? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, anyone. Anyone. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 609 1 Q Has she ever gone into Room 563? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q How do you know that? 4 A Well, for one thing, her name is 5 not on the log, as far as I know. For 6 another thing, I'm sure I would have been 7 notified of it or informed of it, and if you 8 saw that room, Mr. Klayman, the prospect of 9 the First Lady of the United States going 10 into that room wouldn't happen. 11 Q Why is that? 12 A Because of the conditions of the 13 room. It's got a ceiling that slants down. 14 You have to be careful when you walk in there 15 from hitting your head on the ceiling. 16 Q Did you review the log before you 17 came to testify today? 18 A No, I did not. 19 Q Have you reviewed the entire log 20 recently? 21 A No, I have not. 22 Q So you can't tell me categorically 610 1 that Mrs. Clinton has not been in that room? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: If she would have 4 been in that room, I would have known about 5 it. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Who would have told you? 8 A My staff. 9 Q Suppose she went into the room when 10 you weren't there? 11 A How would she have gotten in there 12 unless one of my staff went in there with 13 her? 14 Q Was she prohibited from going into 15 that room? 16 A She can go in that room as long as 17 one of my staff were with her, just as you 18 could. 19 Q Mr. Good, you don't want to 20 implicate Mrs. Clinton in any wrongdoing, do 21 you? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection for form. 611 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 2 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, where 3 are you going with this? I told you that I 4 will stand by the truth. I will give you a 5 truthful answer. I don't need to be under 6 oath for that, Mr. Klayman. I wasn't raised 7 that way. So you go ahead and ask -- 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q I still want an answer to my 10 question. 11 A You asked me I don't want to 12 implicate the First Lady? 13 Q In any wrongdoing, correct? 14 A And what's the other side of that 15 coin, Mr. Klayman? I do want to implicate 16 her? 17 Q Just answer my question. 18 A I don't want to implicate anyone if 19 they're not guilty of something. 20 Q Have I ever told you that 21 Mrs. Clinton was guilty of something? 22 A No, sir, you haven't. 612 1 Q Has anyone else? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 3 argumentative. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Has anyone else? 6 A No. 7 Q Now, at the bottom, CC Clifford 8 Sloan, Counsel's Office. Why were you CC'ing 9 Clifford Sloan? 10 A Clifford Sloan was one of the 11 attorneys who at that time was working on the 12 Travel Office matter. 13 Q John Podesta, why was he CC'd? 14 A Because at the time he was my 15 supervisor. 16 Q Was he your supervisor for all 17 matters or just certain matters? 18 A I was responsible to him in his 19 capacity of staff secretary. We reported to 20 him for all policy matters. 21 Q Were you aware at the time that 22 Mr. Podesta participated in Whitewater damage 613 1 control meetings? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Beyond 3 the scope of the judge's order. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. You 5 can respond. 6 THE WITNESS: Mr. Podesta was 7 involved with that. I knew that. I don't 8 know when he was involved with that. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you have an opinion as to 11 whether the First Lady did anything improper 12 in the Filegate controversy? 13 MR. GREEN: You know, I've been so 14 good at this deposition. I almost want to 15 pat myself on the back, but I can't get into 16 that. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't pat 18 yourself on the back? 19 MR. GREEN: Not any longer. I'm 20 just going to tell him that's off-limits. 21 You show me where that's in the order and 22 we'll go with it. 614 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Deals with state of 2 mind, deals with bias. 3 MR. GREEN: It may but unless Judge 4 Lamberth tells me that I've made a big 5 mistake here I'm not going to -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, certify 7 it. 8 I'll also note for the record that 9 Judge Lamberth's order says that we may ask 10 reasonable follow-up questions. 11 MR. GREEN: It sure does, and we 12 haven't been very attentive to the contours 13 of reasonableness here. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you aware, 15 Mr. Green, that Hillary Clinton's a Defendant 16 in this case? 17 MR. GREEN: You know, I'm not -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you aware that? 19 MR. GREEN: I'm not here to give 20 testimony. I'm here to represent my client. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: To be able to 22 instruct your client not to answer questions, 615 1 I would think you would know who the 2 Defendants are. 3 MR. GREEN: I didn't say I don't 4 know. I just said I'm not answering the 5 question. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q I'll ask that the next document be 9 marked as Exhibit 13. This is another 10 document that you've produced today from 11 yourself to the memorandum for technical 12 service division, United States Secret 13 Service, January 4, 1994. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: I object to 15 questions about this document as being beyond 16 the authorized scope of questioning under the 17 judge's December 7, 1998, order. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand that. 19 If we can avoid using up the time, you can 20 have a running objection. I'll stipulate to 21 that. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 616 1 Q This is another document you 2 produced today, correct? 3 A Pardon me. What was this one 4 again? 5 MR. GREEN: He wants to know -- 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q January 4, 1994, memorandum for 8 technical service division -- 9 A I have a December 22, 1993, in 10 front of me. 11 Q I'm sorry. December 22 memorandum 12 for Arnold Cole, United States Secret 13 Service, Terry Good. This memorandum makes 14 reference to Room 520. Were the subject FBI 15 materials also stored in Room 520, those that 16 are the subject of this case? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 19 vagueness. 20 THE WITNESS: At some point they 21 must have been put up there, too, and I 22 apologize to you, Mr. Klayman, because I had 617 1 forgotten about this in my earlier 2 deposition. There was a period of time here 3 from I guess around the 1st of January until 4 sometime in I think about a year later when 5 the roof was finished over 563 and then all 6 the records were moved back to 563. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Is there a log for who entered into 9 Room 520? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Is it complete? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Is it accurate? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You have that currently in your 16 possession? 17 A If I don't have it, the FBI does. 18 Q What leads you to believe that you 19 may not have it? 20 A Because I think the FBI collected 21 quite a few records and had them during the 22 time of Travel Office. 618 1 Q In addition to records showing 2 entry into 520 and 563, are there records 3 that were prepared that are complete showing 4 what was taken out of 520 and 563? 5 A I believe I testified to the manner 6 in which we would record any documents being 7 removed from those areas, and in the case of 8 boxes we would simply make a sheet that we 9 call a charge-out sheet. I think I explained 10 this in my earlier deposition, and we would 11 simply write down the date, the number of the 12 box, the name of the person who was to 13 receive it, and the initials of the person on 14 my staff who would be moving that box. When 15 that box is returned, that charge-out sheet 16 would be removed from that spot, the name 17 crossed off, and we would simply put it in a 18 pile to be used again. 19 Q Do you have a copy of those charge- 20 out sheets that's complete? 21 A No. 22 Q Who has it? 619 1 A Once they're filled up, we threw 2 them away. 3 Q Is there any backup copy of that? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q Was anything put on to a computer 6 hard drive to that effect? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q There's absolutely no way we can 9 find out as of today who, if anyone, took FBI 10 materials out of these two rooms, 563 and 11 520? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 13 THE WITNESS: I think you could 14 address that question to the FBI because they 15 would have been responsible for that. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Were there surveillance cameras in 18 both of these two rooms? 19 A No, sir, there were not. 20 Q Do you know that for a fact? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q How do you know that for a fact? 620 1 A I've been in both rooms. There are 2 no surveillance cameras. 3 Q Why weren't there surveillance 4 cameras in both rooms? 5 A None were ever requested. 6 Q Who would have been responsible for 7 making such request? 8 A I certainly could have initiated 9 it. Had the FBI felt the need for that, they 10 could have initiated it. 11 Q Do you know of anyone by or on 12 behalf of the FBI who did initiate it? 13 A I'm unaware that anything like that 14 was ever requested. 15 Q There are surveillance cameras in 16 the hallways, however, outside of those 17 rooms, correct? 18 A I'm unaware of that. 19 Q Do you know of anyone who may have 20 information about that? 21 A The Secret Service. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Turn your attention 621 1 to what I'll ask the court to mark as Exhibit 2 13. It's a memorandum of January 4, 1994, 3 from technical service division re: Room 4 563. 5 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 13 6 was marked for identification.) 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Same scope objection 8 as before. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Does this document reflect that all 11 the records in 563 have been transferred to 12 520? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q So once all the records for 563 15 were sent to 520 it was 520 that needed to be 16 locked and secured, not 563? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Who was responsible for locking and 19 securing both of these two rooms? 20 A The Office of Records Management. 21 Q Who in that office? 22 A Any of us. 622 1 Q Everybody had the key? 2 A I'm not sure that all of the people 3 had the key for that lock. 4 Q Who had the key that you can 5 remember? 6 A Well, the members of the unit that 7 I have already previously identified in my 8 previous deposition from the search and file 9 unit, which would have included William 10 Roberts, Tom Taggart, Randy Nelson, Myra 11 Freeman, Willie Howell, and I believe at that 12 point in time Sherman Williams. I had the 13 key, my deputy Lee Johnson had the key. 14 There may have been others but I'm not sure. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the 16 following document be marked Exhibit 15. 17 It's a memorandum for the record of December 18 13, 1994, from Q. Thomas Taggart, Junior, 19 concerning Rooms 563 and 520 access and 20 security and Travel Office records. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Same scope 22 objection. 623 1 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 15 2 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Is this a document you're producing 5 today? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Kept in the same convenience file 8 that you've described? 9 A This is my copy of it, Mr. Klayman. 10 If you look in the upper right-hand corner 11 the numbers on all of these documents 12 indicates that the originals of those are in 13 the regular files of the Office of Records 14 Management. 15 Q What regular files are they? 16 A I don't quite know how to answer 17 that question. They are the main files that 18 we have. 19 Q How are those files labeled? 20 A You see the six-digit 21 identification number in the upper right-hand 22 corner of these documents? 624 1 Q Correct. 2 A That's an identification number 3 that's unique to that document. The 4 information underneath that in the case of 5 the most recent document, WH 0006, once again 6 referring to our classification manual which 7 I think you got a copy of before stands for 8 White House. The code six, I'm not sure 9 exactly what that means, but this is a major 10 category, one of about 60-some that we have 11 in our filing system, and in this case it 12 relates to a matter involving The White 13 House, the organization and the 14 administration of it. The original of this 15 document would be filed in that location. 16 I might add that each of these 17 documents that you have asked me questions 18 about carry those identification numbers in 19 those codes, which indicates that the 20 document itself, if you will, the official 21 document of that, is filed in our files, and 22 these are merely copies. They're not the 625 1 originals. 2 Q So this didn't come from your 3 convenience file? 4 A No, it did. I made a copy of that 5 for my convenience file. Anybody on our 6 staff could have copies of these. 7 Q Do other persons on your staff keep 8 what you've described as convenience files? 9 A They certainly have every reason 10 to, and if they wish, yes. 11 Q Do you know whether those 12 convenience files were ever searched in 13 response to Judicial Watch document requests 14 in this lawsuit? 15 A If we were instructed to do that, 16 then we would have. 17 Q Well, going all the way back to 18 your prior attorneys before Mr. Gilligan and 19 company, that response is not direct 20 knowledge. That's secondhand knowledge, 21 correct? 22 A My answer to you now? 626 1 Q Yes. 2 A Yes. 3 Q So you personally don't have 4 knowledge that the convenience files of the 5 other employees in your office, White House 6 Office of Records Management, were ever 7 searched in response to Judicial Watch's 8 document request, correct? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I would have to 11 say no. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Just like you have produced today 14 documents from your convenience files, to the 15 best of your knowledge, there may be 16 documents in other convenience files that are 17 relevant to this case? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, calls for 19 speculation. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Correct? 22 A Mr. Klayman, these documents are in 627 1 our regular files and had the person doing 2 the search believed them to be responsive you 3 would have gotten copies of these. 4 Q Mr. Good, what I'm trying to figure 5 out, you say you want to tell the whole 6 truth, you want to forward this along. Why 7 when I ask you a question like that which may 8 lead to documents that should be produced in 9 this case do you take a position that they 10 most likely were produced already? Why 11 aren't you taking my position, trying to find 12 these things? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 14 argumentative. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know that 16 they weren't produced for you. I did not see 17 what was produced for you. Can you tell me 18 whether or not these were among the documents 19 that were produced for you? And, 20 furthermore, I guess there is some question 21 as to whether or not they're relevant. I'm 22 hearing these people over here objecting. 628 1 Again, I don't know the legal reasons for 2 that. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Have you ever taken a course on 5 business law? 6 A No, sir. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 8 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 9 next exhibit. 10 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 16 11 was marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q This is a document that says search 14 query 0046520 and OEOB at the top. What is 15 that document? 16 A Okay, this is a printout of a case 17 that we have in our system that involves a 18 memo that Tom Taggart did, and aside from the 19 typo there in the subject category ROMM 20 should be ROOM. What this is referring to is 21 a series of sign-in forms for Room 520, and 22 it indicates that on September 26, 1995, the 629 1 material in 560 and 520 was moved to 563, and 2 the final phrase there, "New system, no 3 further logs kept," indicates that once we 4 moved the material back into 563 the alarm 5 system that was installed during our absence 6 was a pad-type system, so we no longer called 7 down to Secret Service to let them know we 8 were coming in or leaving. We punched the 9 pad indicating that we were in. We punched 10 it again when we left. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you a 12 document that I'll ask that we mark as 13 Exhibit 17, a sign-in form for Room 520. 563 14 is crossed out and 520 is inserted. It 15 consists of two pages, spans dates October 16 14, 1994, through 9/22/95. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Do you want to try 18 again with the first date, Mr. Klayman? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: 12/14/94 through 20 9/22/95. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Same scope 22 objection, by the way. 630 1 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 17 2 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Were these two pages which comprise 5 Exhibit 17 taken out of your convenience 6 file? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Do they reflect entry into Room 9 520? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q During the time that these 12 documents reflect entry, FBI file materials 13 and Travel Office materials were stored in 14 Room 520? 15 A Again, I'm not sure of the dates. 16 They may have overlapped, but at some point 17 during the time period that these forms 18 relate to, those documents would have been 19 there. 20 Q The third column from the left, can 21 you tell me who these people are that are 22 listed? Let's just go down from 12/14/94. 631 1 Cahill, who is Cahill? 2 A Again, every name on there is the 3 name of a Secret Service agent working in the 4 Secret Service control center. 5 Q So what was Cahill's first name? 6 A I do not know his first name. 7 Q Schmidt? 8 A Don't know their first names. 9 Q Verna? 10 A Don't know their first names. 11 Q Can you read that one, 4/4/95? Poh 12 something, P-o-h? 13 A P-o-h-l-h-a-m-e-s, perhaps. 14 Q What's the next one under that, 15 4/12/95? 16 A It starts with a W. I can't read 17 it. 18 Q Let's take the far right column. 19 12/4/94, SÄÄÄÄ, who is SÄÄÄÄ? 20 A Michael SÄÄÄÄ is one of the 21 employees in my office. He had worked for us 22 for several years, went back to Florida, came 632 1 back, and rejoined our staff. 2 Q He's there now? 3 A Yes, he is. 4 Q The one at the bottom, does that 5 say Taggart? It's hard to read? 6 A I believe so. 7 Q Turn to the next page, the third 8 column over from the left, this is still 17, 9 entry 7/14/95 Bolton, is that a Secret 10 Service agent? 11 A Any name that appears in that 12 column is the name of a Secret Service agent. 13 Q Tell me whether you can identify 14 the first names of any of these agents. 15 A No, I cannot. 16 Q Far right-hand column entry, 17 9/7/95, what does that say? 18 A "Roberts and Good." That's William 19 Roberts. 20 Q The entry at 9/22/95? 21 A I'd have to go back and ask 22 Mr. Taggart. I don't recognize that. 633 1 Q Entry 8/2/95, do you see it, 2 Taggart and then above there's something 3 written? What does that say? 4 A I believe that says CF, referring 5 to Confidential File 101. 6 Q "To Fine"? 7 A To Fine. 8 Q What does that mean? 9 A I believe there was a member of the 10 Counsel's Office whose last name was Fine. 11 Q Do you know why he was getting 12 entry here or she? 13 A No, and please understand that I 14 read that to mean Mr. Taggart took that box 15 labeled Confidential File 101 and delivered 16 it to Mr. Fine. 17 Q What was that file? 18 A I do not know. I can find out, 19 certainly, but I do not know now. 20 Q Would you let us know? 21 A Certainly. 22 MR. GREEN: Well -- 634 1 MR. GILLIGAN: We'll decide that 2 for him, Mr. Klayman. 3 THE WITNESS: Please understand 4 again there are -- 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Direct your 6 discovery requests to counsel and not to the 7 witness, please. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: When you say "we'll," 9 who do you mean, Janet Reno or you? 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Janet Reno has 11 nothing to do with this case, Mr. Klayman. 12 It is of no interest to her. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't know who "we" 14 means at the department. 15 MR. GREEN: It's the royal we. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Below there's a handwritten 18 notation, "Material moved to 563 OEOB, SYS 19 261995. New system, no further logs kept." 20 A That's correct. That refers to 21 what's on this printout here. These two 22 documents are the documents that this 635 1 printout refers to. You'll see the number in 2 the upper right-hand corner, 132408, 3 corresponds to the printout number, 132408. 4 That's the identification number. So this 5 printout refers to this, these two pages. 6 Q Whose handwriting is this at the 7 bottom? 8 A Mr. Taggart's. 9 Q This seems to suggest that the 10 files were moved from 520 back to 563 at some 11 point? 12 A No, no, that means that the 13 material was moved from 520, which shows up 14 here, material moved to 563 on September 26, 15 1995, and again new system. Implied in that 16 is a new security system was in place in 563 17 at that point in time, and therefore there 18 was no further logs kept. 19 Q So after that point in time, there 20 were no logs? 21 A Up to that point? 22 Q After. 636 1 A After that point, that's what 2 Mr. Taggart has noted on this. 3 Q What did the new security system 4 entail, if anything? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: I have to object 6 here, at least until I can satisfy myself 7 that we're not talking about any sort of 8 Secret Service security system. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, in fact we are. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Well, then, the 11 judge has ruled that Secret Service security 12 systems are out-of-bounds, Mr. Klayman, and I 13 instruct the witness not to answer. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll move for 15 clarification with the court. I mean, I 16 can't believe that the court would have 17 intended anything which directly relates to 18 the storage of FBI files to be off-limits in 19 this case. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, Secret 21 Service security systems, the judge has said, 22 are off limits. Now, if you want to ask the 637 1 judge for clarification on that -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: We will do that. 3 The next document I'll have marked 4 as Exhibit 18. It's a handwritten note to 5 Terry. It says, "2:55 P 6/25, please call 6 David Chancer, Senate Judiciary Committee," 7 gives a phone number. It says, "Pat, 6:00 8 p.m., called, left message." 9 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 18 10 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know whose handwriting this 13 is, Mr. Good? 14 A That's Patricia Young of my staff. 15 She took this call. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Same scope 17 objection, by the way. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q What was her position at the time? 20 A She's the supervisor of the unit 21 known as the classification unit. 22 Q Do you remember what this was all 638 1 about, this call from Mr. Schanzer? 2 A It was leading up to my deposition 3 with the Senate Judiciary Committee. 4 Q Did you call him back? 5 A My handwritten note at the bottom 6 says at 6:00 p.m. I called and left a 7 message. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: The next document 9 I'll ask be marked Exhibit 19, also 10 handwritten June 26, 1995, Yoo, phone number 11 Senate Judiciary Committee, not under oath, 12 interview transcript my option. Counsel may 13 accompany me. 14 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 19 15 was marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Is that your handwriting? 18 A Yes, it is. 19 Q Does this reflect a return call 20 that you made to the Senate Judiciary 21 Committee? 22 A I'm not sure if it was a return 639 1 call or he called me, but in any case it 2 indicates that the two of us talked, and he 3 informed me that I would not be under oath, 4 and as far as whether a transcript would be 5 done that would be my option and counsel may 6 accompany me if I wished. 7 Q I take it your testimony was not 8 under oath before the Senate? 9 A I don't remember being sworn on 10 that occasion. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. Let me show 12 you what I'll ask the court reporter to mark 13 as 20. This is a copy of the Alexander v. 14 FBI decision at 971 F. Supp. 603. 15 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 20 16 was marked for identification.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Where did you get a copy of this? 19 A I don't remember how I came to get 20 this copy. 21 Q Was this also in your convenience 22 file? 640 1 A That's correct. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: The next document 3 I'll ask be marked Exhibit 21. It's an 4 article in the Washington Times. It says, 5 "Scene of Filegate casts doubt on innocent 6 mistake," December 16, 1998. 7 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 21 8 was marked for identification.) 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Same scope 10 objection. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know where you got a copy of 13 this? 14 A That could have been a copy that 15 was given to me by a member of my staff who 16 had read it and said have you seen this? Do 17 you want to read this? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask the next 19 document be marked Exhibit 22. It's a New 20 York Post article, "Hubbell out of trouble"? 21 A That wasn't the reason that was 22 copied. 641 1 Q Excuse me? 2 A That was not the reason that 3 article was copied. 4 Q What was the reason it was copied? 5 A It was because a day following my 6 deposition with you the New York Post wrote 7 an article about it. Mr. Bloomquist called 8 me and asked me if I care to comment about 9 this. 10 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 22 11 was marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q And did you comment? 14 A No, I didn't. I didn't talk to the 15 press. It was after that that somebody in 16 the messenger room told me that my name 17 appeared in the New York Post and he brought 18 me a copy of that newspaper. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a 20 one-minute break. Thank you. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 22 video record at 4:08. 642 1 (Recess) 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 3 video record at 4:17. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q When we identified Exhibit 8, I 6 think there may have been some pages that 7 were left off. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Exhibit 8? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, and we can just 10 add those. 11 MR. FITTON: The first six pages 12 weren't added on the one that was marked. 13 We're adding them. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: You're speaking of 15 the House deposition? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Right, if that's all 17 right with you. You can check it later. If 18 it's not correct, we can switch it. 19 Showing you the next exhibit, what 20 number is that? 21 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 23 22 was marked for identification.) 643 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q This is a Washington Times article, 3 July 20, 1998, "Tripp among names on new 4 Filegate FBI list," and then it consists of 5 five pages. Was this taken out of your 6 convenience file as well? 7 A That's right. 8 Q How did you get this document? 9 A On the day that that article 10 appeared, one of the members of my staff saw 11 it and made copies for all of us because most 12 of our names appear on it. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I only 14 have four pages. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: You're right. It's 16 four. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Same scope 18 objection, by the way. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the 20 next exhibit be marked 24. It's two pages, 21 Washington Times, Friday, July 17, 1998. 22 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 24 644 1 was marked for identification.) 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q This is an article. Did this come 4 out of your convenience file as well? 5 A That's correct. This was the copy 6 made because this was the article that made 7 reference to my deposition with you. Isn't 8 that right? 9 Q Well, whatever it says, it says. 10 Now, did you discuss these articles with your 11 staff in and around the time that they were 12 written? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Who did you discuss them with? 15 A Anyone on my staff who read that 16 article and said, Terry, your name is in the 17 paper. 18 Q What did you say to members of your 19 staff? 20 A Well, I essentially said yes, this 21 is a result of my deposition with Larry 22 Klayman. 645 1 Q What else did you discuss? 2 A Well, that's essentially it. I was 3 aware that to discuss that would only bring 4 me more questions from you, and so I've been 5 pretty good about not discussing any of the 6 details of this. 7 Q But at the time these articles 8 broke you didn't even know you were being 9 called back for deposition, correct? 10 A Mr. Klayman, I'm learning something 11 about legal procedure. 12 Q You've become very sophisticated in 13 legal procedure? 14 A No, I won't say that by any 15 stretch. I've got a long ways to go. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Then I'll ask that 17 the next document be marked 25. This is a 18 printout. It consists of two pages. 19 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 25 20 was marked for identification.) 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I don't 22 have a copy of that document. I would 646 1 appreciate having one. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Nor do I. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: It's actually at the 4 back of that transcript that we marked 5 Exhibit 8. That's probably where you'll find 6 it. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: All right. Let me 8 see if I can find it. Thank you. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did this come out of your 11 convenience file? 12 A Yes, it did. 13 Q How did you get it? 14 A I believe my deputy found it when 15 he was looking at some of the news releases 16 and made a copy of it for me. 17 Q Did you discuss it with him? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What did you tell your deputy? 20 A Well, it wasn't a matter of telling 21 him. It was a matter of discussing it. 22 Billy Dale, of course, is a friend of ours, 647 1 so we were interested in what was happening 2 in this regard, so he showed me this. 3 Q Who was your deputy? 4 A Lee Johnson. 5 Q Mr. Good, do you remember 6 conversations regarding any need to obtain 7 Kathleen Willey's consent before the release 8 of the information in her files to The White 9 House Counsel's Office? 10 A No, I do not. 11 Q You testified earlier that you 12 couldn't remember that communication, 13 correct? 14 A Again, I don't have that testimony 15 in front of me. Is this going back to the 16 one in June of last year? 17 Q That's correct. 18 A Do you have the transcript in front 19 of you? 20 Q Well, I don't have to ask you 21 questions necessarily off the transcript. 22 I'll be happy to do that, but I'm just 648 1 wondering whether there's anything today that 2 you can remember that you could not remember 3 back in June and July of 1998, just as a 4 general matter. 5 A No. 6 Q I'll refer your answer to Exhibit 7 9. 8 MR. FITTON: Does anyone have an 9 extra copy of Exhibit 9? 10 THE WITNESS: Here, I'll let you 11 have this one back, and I'll look off of his. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Holley, what 13 time did we come back on? 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on at 4:17. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you see Exhibit 9, paragraph 5? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Plaintiffs' counsel subsequently 20 asked, "When the Kathleen Willey letters were 21 retrieved and provided to the Counsel's 22 Office, was there any instruction from the 649 1 Counsel's Office not to release them unless 2 they got the permission of Kathleen Willey"? 3 Paragraph 5 states, "I was 4 instructed not to answer that question at the 5 time, but so far as I am aware, the answer is 6 no." Now, you just testified, Mr. Good, that 7 you couldn't remember, yet in this affidavit 8 you say the answer's no? 9 A Well, I wish you would -- 10 Q Wait. Wait. The reason that you 11 say no here is because you didn't write the 12 response to paragraph 5, correct? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 14 argumentative. 15 MR. GREEN: Is there a question or 16 is that a statement? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a question. 18 MR. GREEN: What's the question? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q The reason that this says no in 21 paragraph 5 is because you didn't write it. 22 The real response to this is I don't 650 1 remember, correct? 2 MR. GREEN: That's a statement, not 3 a question. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 5 Mischaracterizes the record. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 7 MR. GREEN: Do you understand what 8 he's saying? 9 THE WITNESS: No, I'm at a loss, 10 Mr. Klayman. 11 MR. GREEN: Would you please 12 rephrase? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q I just asked you whether you could 15 remember the subject of the conversation as 16 to whether you got instruction from Counsel's 17 Office not to release the Kathleen Willey 18 letters, and you testified I can't remember 19 anything about that, correct? 20 A And that's a valid answer. Now 21 you've shown me this document, and I remember 22 this. I mean, obviously, I signed it. 651 1 MR. GREEN: Stop. Stop. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Green, I do 3 object to you showing your client testimony 4 right now. I had a question pending. I'd be 5 more than happy to allow you to cross- 6 examine, but you're putting information in 7 front of him in the middle of a pending 8 question. I object to that. 9 Will you please pan to Mr. Green 10 and what he's looking at with Mr. Good? 11 MR. GREEN: Is there a question 12 pending, and if so would you have somebody 13 either read it to me or restate it? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll restate it. I'm 15 not going to withdraw the prior question or 16 the response, but let me see if I can 17 rephrase this so we can move on. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q When I previously asked you what 20 you were told regarding any need to obtain 21 Kathleen Willey's consent before the release 22 of the information in her files just a few 652 1 moments ago you testified, did you not, 2 Mr. Good, that you couldn't remember, 3 correct? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q However, in paragraph 5 of your 8 affidavit, that's Exhibit 9, you give an 9 unequivocal response that the answer is, "I 10 was instructed not to answer that question at 11 the time, but as far as I'm aware the answer 12 is no." That is what you responded to in the 13 affidavit, correct? 14 A I wish you would have shown me this 15 before you asked me the first question. 16 Again, am I running afoul of the law if I 17 fail to remember, and when you showed me this 18 I can say oh, yes, I do remember this? I'm 19 sorry. If that appears inconsistent to you 20 or illegal, I'm at a loss to explain it any 21 more than that. 22 Q The reason why your response in 653 1 paragraph 5 of your affidavit is an 2 unequivocal no is because you didn't write 3 paragraph 5, correct? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 5 Argumentative. 6 THE WITNESS: There are two 7 questions there. No, I did not write 8 paragraph 5; however, that doesn't mean that 9 my answer is wrong. No, we did not receive 10 any advice from The White House Counsel's 11 Office as to whether Ms. Willey's permission 12 was required before the documents in question 13 could be provided to the Counsel's Office. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you receive advice from any 16 source as to whether Ms. Willey's permission 17 was required before her letters could be 18 released to The White House Counsel's Office? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q When I say "any other source," any 21 other place in The White House other than 22 White House Counsel's Office? 654 1 A No, sir. 2 Q Any place outside of The White 3 House? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q Any person inside The White House? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Any person outside The White House? 8 A No, sir. 9 Q Was there any type of documentation 10 that you reviewed, meaning you or anybody on 11 your staff, before the Willey letters were 12 provided to The White House Counsel's Office? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Any guidelines? 15 A Mr. Klayman, there are two 16 documents that have been issued during this 17 administration that would have contained 18 guidance on that matter if it had been 19 something that The White House wanted the 20 staff to know about. Those are called The 21 White House staff manuals. 22 One was in '93, another was issued 655 1 in '97. Neither one of those staff manuals 2 make any references at all to the Privacy 3 Act. They talk about the Presidential 4 Records Act, they talk about the Freedom of 5 Information Act. They talk -- no, the 6 Federal Records Act is not mentioned, I 7 guess. 8 But those two acts are mentioned 9 there. It would seem to me that if the 10 Privacy Act was a matter of some concern that 11 would have been spelled out in that White 12 House staff manual. It doesn't appear in 13 either one of them. 14 Q Now, that's not responsive to my 15 question, but I take it you've discussed this 16 whole matter of these manuals and whether the 17 Privacy Act applied with either your personal 18 counsel or your government counsel or both, 19 correct, before today's deposition? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Don't 21 answer that. That's covered by the attorney- 22 client privilege. 656 1 MR. GREEN: Don't answer that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q But you didn't review either of 4 those two manuals before releasing Willey's 5 letters to The White House Counsel's Office, 6 correct? 7 A No. 8 Q And in fact didn't even think of 9 reviewing them, correct? 10 A This goes to your question of the 11 Privacy Act. 12 Q It calls for a yes or no. 13 A No. 14 Q Now, showing you Exhibit 20, this 15 is a copy -- 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Madam Court 17 Reporter, can you just keep track of where we 18 are in the transcript because I'm going to 19 want a question read back at some point? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Showing you Exhibit 20, this is a 22 copy of the decision by Judge Lamberth in 657 1 this lawsuit, Alexander v. FBI, correct? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q You had a copy of this decision in 4 your files, either your convenience files or 5 elsewhere in the Office of Records 6 Management, before you, Terry Good, and the 7 Office of Records Management released the 8 Willey letters to The White House Counsel's 9 Office, correct? 10 A I don't remember when I had a copy 11 of this. 12 Q What is your best estimate? 13 A That it came to me much, much later 14 after my deposition and your questions about 15 the Privacy Act. 16 Q Now, you are aware that in this 17 decision by Judge Lamberth, which is Exhibit 18 20, the judge finds that the Privacy Act is 19 applicable to the Executive Office of the 20 President, correct? 21 A I read that, yes, sir. 22 Q You read that before you testified 658 1 here today, correct? 2 A Correct. 3 Q So you can't remember when you got 4 it. You just know it was after you released 5 the Willey letters, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You've given that testimony today 8 having already read Judge Lamberth's 9 decision, correct? 10 A If you're asking me, I'm giving 11 this testimony today after having read this 12 document? 13 Q Yes. 14 A Yes. 15 Q What proof do you have as to when 16 you got this Alexander v. FBI decision, what 17 written proof? 18 A I do not have any. 19 Q Who would have an answer to that 20 question? 21 MR. GREEN: Which question? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 659 1 Q When you got this court decision, 2 Exhibit 20? 3 A I don't know because I don't 4 remember how it came into my possession. 5 Q Look at the first page of Exhibit 6 20. 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q There's an SP there, correct? 9 A I was unable to decipher that. 10 Q That stands for Sally Paxton, 11 correct? 12 A I would have to defer to someone 13 who recognizes her initials. I don't. 14 Q Does that refresh your recollection 15 as to where you got this decision? 16 A If this is Sally Paxton's initials, 17 all that tells me is at some point Sally 18 Paxton had this document. 19 Q Were you ever told by anybody, 20 either inside or outside The White House, 21 that Kathleen Willey consented to the release 22 of her letters to The White House Counsel's 660 1 Office? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q Did any entity tell you that, quite 4 apart from a person? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 6 MR. GREEN: You mean, like, a 7 building? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, an 9 organization, an institution, a government 10 office, whatever. 11 THE WITNESS: I would only take 12 legal advice from the Counsel's Office as an 13 employee of The White House staff. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Based on your experience should 16 Kathleen Willey have been consulted before 17 her letters were released to The White House 18 Counsel's Office? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 20 extent it calls for a legal conclusion. 21 THE WITNESS: Based on my 22 experience, my experience up to this point 661 1 has been that documents within our custody 2 are released to members of The White House 3 staff. There is never any consultation with 4 the citizens who might have written those 5 letters in. That's never been done. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So are you telling me that you've 8 released other letters about other people to 9 The White House Counsel's Office without 10 getting the permission of these other people? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A Mr. Klayman, I think I went through 15 for you earlier the procedures we follow. 16 Records in our custody are available first 17 and foremost to the President, to the staff 18 secretary who's my immediate superior, and to 19 the Counsel's Office. There are no questions 20 asked. Other members of the staff have 21 access to files that they have sent to us, 22 but they don't have access to files that come 662 1 down from other staff people. 2 Q Before releasing the Kathleen 3 Willeys letters to The White House Counsel's 4 Office, did you ask anyone in The White House 5 Counsel's Office what was going to be done 6 with those letters? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q You did, however, subsequently 9 learn that those letters were released to the 10 media, correct? 11 A I learned -- 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Assumes 13 facts not in evidence. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can respond. 16 A I don't know how many were released 17 to the media. I remember seeing the one that 18 was either on television and/or in the 19 newspaper. 20 Q But you did learn that, that they 21 were released? 22 A That a letter -- 663 1 Q One or more? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q After you learned that, did you go 4 talk to anybody about that having occurred? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Did that concern you that that 7 letter was released to the media? 8 A Once again, Mr. Klayman, The White 9 House releases information on a daily basis. 10 Q I just asked whether that concerned 11 you, Mr. Good. 12 MR. GREEN: Yes or no. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Does it concern you today? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q Has it been your practice during 18 the Clinton Administration to turn over to 19 The White House Counsel's Office any 20 documents that it requests? 21 A Yes, sir, I just told you. 22 Q No questions asked? 664 1 A The three offices in The White 2 House that we will respond to without 3 question are the President, the staff 4 secretary, and the Counsel's Office. 5 Q No questions asked? 6 A That's right. It's not our job. 7 Q Have you turned over documents to 8 the First Lady's office during the Clinton 9 Administration? 10 A Of course, because they have sent 11 us a lot of documents and when they ask for 12 them back we return them. 13 Q Have you sent to Mrs. Clinton's 14 office documents which they did not first 15 send to your office? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Object that these 17 questions are beyond the scope authorized by 18 the court's order. 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, again, 20 I'm not in a position to tell you what 21 documents have been asked by any staff 22 office. Your answer expects me to be 665 1 knowledgeable about all the documents that 2 have been requested by the First Lady's 3 office. I can't answer that. 4 Can you on the basis of that person 5 sitting out there tell me all the phone calls 6 she has received and the information she's 7 given? I can't tell you in my capacity the 8 requests that have come from the First Lady's 9 office or any office within The White House, 10 for that matter. I am not the sole recipient 11 of those. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So you can't tell me what requests 14 have come from the First Lady's office during 15 the time that you've been director of the 16 Office of Records Management? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q So, therefore, you can't assure me 22 that no documents have been sent by the 666 1 Office of Records Management to the First 2 Lady's office which documents were not 3 generated by the First Lady's office, 4 correct? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 6 the question. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Argumentative, join. 8 THE WITNESS: I cannot. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q That would include whether FBI 11 files and related materials were sent to the 12 First Lady's office? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Argumentative. Lack 16 of foundation. 17 THE WITNESS: I think I made it 18 clear to you, Mr. Klayman, we did not send 19 FBI files to anybody except the personnel 20 security office when they were in our 21 custody. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 667 1 Q You also made it clear that you 2 have no records as to what went out of your 3 office in terms of FBI files or related 4 materials, correct? 5 A Again I would reiterate those files 6 would have only gone back to the personnel 7 security office. That follows the rule I 8 just mentioned to you. If you send the files 9 to me you can have them back but he can't. 10 Q But you have no records to the 11 effect that FBI files were not sent to 12 Mrs. Clinton's office, correct? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Join the objection. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: You may answer. 16 THE WITNESS: I believe you have a 17 document that shows what files were charged 18 out, do you not? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q I'm talking about your office. 21 A No, I mean -- 22 Q I'm not answering the questions 668 1 here, Mr. Good. You testified earlier today 2 that there were no records kept of documents 3 for files taken out of the Office of Records 4 Management, correct? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q That would include FBI files and 9 related materials, correct, yes or no? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you ever have a conversation 12 with an individual by the name of Mitchell 13 Ettinger? 14 A Can you identify him beyond the 15 name? 16 Q He's a lawyer who has worked with 17 and currently works for Robert Bennett of the 18 law firm of Skadden & Arps? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Way 20 beyond the scope of the judge's December 7 21 order. 22 THE WITNESS: I have no 669 1 recollection of any conversations with this 2 gentleman. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 4 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 5 next exhibit. 6 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 26 7 was marked for identification.) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Showing you this document by 10 Mitchell S. Ettinger, have you ever seen the 11 document? 12 A The statement by Mitchell S. 13 Ettinger? 14 Q Yes. 15 A No, sir. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, beyond 17 the scope. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll tie it up, 19 Mr. Gilligan, although I'm sure you can see 20 the relevance. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Not at all. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't think that 670 1 you would. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Paragraph 2, Ms. Willey is a former 4 member of The White House staff. The letters 5 from Ms. Willey that were recently released 6 by The White House were White House 7 documents, maintained in White House files. 8 Do you know how Mr. Ettinger got 9 that information? 10 A He got the information that they 11 were released by The White House? 12 Q The information that the documents 13 were White House documents, maintained in 14 White House files. 15 A It doesn't say anything here beyond 16 the statement. How would I know? 17 Q That's why I'm asking you these 18 questions. Do you know? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever talked with anyone 21 from the law firm of Skadden & Arps, ever, in 22 any context? 671 1 A Mr. Klayman, I'm afraid I'm not 2 very good of keeping track of the names of 3 the law firms in Washington, D.C. 4 Q Did you talk to any law firm with 5 regard to the Paula Jones' lawsuit ever? 6 A Did I -- if I may rephrase your 7 question, you're asking me, did I ever talk 8 to any law firms about Paula Jones? The 9 answer is no. 10 Q No, I didn't ask that. Did you 11 ever talk to any law firms about any matter 12 related to the Paula Jones' lawsuit? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Look down in the second paragraph 15 in the middle, "The content of the letter 16 substantially undercuts Ms. Willey's 17 contentions, and would have been produced 18 without hesitation, had Ms. Jones' lawyers 19 issued an appropriate request to The White 20 House for them." Do you see that? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Did you ever discuss whether the 672 1 Willey letters would have been produced 2 without hesitation by The White House, if an 3 appropriate request was received by The White 4 House for them? 5 A No, sir, that was not our call. We 6 don't release things to the public. 7 Q The reason is, because you know 8 that it is improper to release things to the 9 public, correct? 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A It's not a question of impropriety 14 or anything like that. It's simply not the 15 way we do business. We service only The 16 White House. 17 Q You have been told that it is not 18 improper to release documents from your files 19 at the Office of Records Management to the 20 public? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: We have a standing 673 1 policy that predates my arrival on the scene 2 that our office serves the needs of The White 3 House office. It does not serve any other 4 government agency. It does not serve the 5 general public. Any requests from any other 6 agencies or the general public are politely 7 deferred. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are what? 10 A Politely deferred or refused. 11 Q Because you and your office has 12 been instructed that you may not release 13 those documents outside of The White House, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q That would include documents such 17 as Kathleen Willey's letters, correct? 18 A That would include anything. 19 Q Who was it at The White House who 20 instructed you to that effect? 21 A As I mentioned to you, that has 22 been a policy within our office before I 674 1 arrived. 2 Q That is a policy which was based 3 upon the Privacy Act, correct? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I think 6 I predated the Privacy Act. I asked you last 7 time when the Privacy Act was issued, and you 8 said, oh, I'll get to it. You never did. It 9 was only when I looked at this document and 10 found out it was issued in 1974. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The current policy which predates 13 the Privacy Act is consistent with the 14 Privacy Act once enacted, correct? 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Calls 16 for a legal conclusion. 17 THE WITNESS: All I can do is fall 18 back on the policy that has been in force 19 long before I've been there. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q The old policy is consistent with 22 the Privacy Act, correct? 675 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Correct? 4 A If no lawyers here argue that 5 point, then it is correct. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I'll 7 ask the court reporter to mark as the next 8 exhibit. 9 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 27 10 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Have you seen this document before, 13 Bates Number 024786? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q The question which is asked, "But 16 we already know that James Carville has 17 smeared Paula Jones, and The White House has 18 smeared Ken Starr and Kathleen Willey, and 19 The White House smeared Paul McKale. Isn't 20 what happened to Henry Hyde simply the latest 21 example of typical White House behavior? It 22 has your MO written all over it. 676 1 "Answer: With all due respect, the 2 charge itself is smeared. All we did with 3 regard to Kathleen Willey was to openly and 4 publicly release copies of letters she 5 herself had written, and we did so to provide 6 some context for the fact that the President 7 was perplexed by her accusations, which she 8 made on national television. As for Ken 9 Starr, we have criticized his actions as 10 Independent Counsel, not his personal life, 11 and I believe it's fair game to point out 12 problems in the way he's run that 13 investigation." 14 Does this refresh your recollection 15 as to whether or not you participated in 16 formulating the answer to the question I read 17 to you from Bates Number 24786? 18 A Pardon me? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, object to the 20 vagueness and object to the fact that it's 21 beyond the scope of the judge's order. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 677 1 Q It's hardly vague. Having read to 2 you this question and this answer, does this 3 refresh your recollection as to whether or 4 not you participated in helping to formulate 5 the answer to the question I just read to 6 you? 7 MR. GREEN: Yes or no, do you have 8 any recollection of participating in that? 9 THE WITNESS: I'm at a loss on this 10 one, Mr. Klayman. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q It calls for yes or no. Even your 13 counsel instructed you to that effect. 14 MR. GREEN: I take his answer's a 15 no. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, Mr. Green. We 17 realize that at some point, levity may be 18 appropriate, but not at this point. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What's your answer, yes or no? 21 A I'm just trying to get an 22 understanding of the question. Are you 678 1 asking me if I participated in something 2 here? 3 Q I'm asking whether, my having read 4 this question and answer to you, number one, 5 does this refresh your recollection whether 6 or not this question was ever posed to anyone 7 at The White House, the one I read to you, 8 off of page 24786? 9 A You're asking me if this question 10 was ever posed to any member of The White 11 House? 12 Q Yes. 13 A How would I know that? 14 Q Well, that's why I'm asking you. 15 Do you know that, yes or no? 16 A Can you identify the people in 17 this? 18 Q Yes or no. 19 A I don't know who this -- 20 MR. GREEN: Do you know anything 21 about this? 22 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 679 1 MR. GREEN: Good. Let's go to the 2 next question. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I have another 4 question, Mr. Green. Put it back in front of 5 him. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q The answer: "All we did with 8 regard to Kathleen Willey was to openly and 9 publicly release copies of letters that she 10 herself had written." You've heard that 11 justification at The White House with regard 12 to the release of Kathleen Willey letters; 13 have you not? 14 A That particular statement, you're 15 asking me if I heard that or read that? 16 Q Yes, you've heard that at The White 17 House, correct? 18 A I don't remember hearing that. I 19 may well have. I don't follow that kind of 20 thing, Mr. Klayman. I'm sorry. I just 21 don't. 22 Q If you heard it, do you know who 680 1 made the statement? 2 A I was trying to find out from you 3 earlier who these people were. I don't know. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 5 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 6 next exhibit, No. 28. 7 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 28 8 was marked for identification.) 9 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, I'd just 10 like to ask a housekeeping matter here. It's 11 now 5:00. Assuming that we have the 12 fortitude to stay here till 6:00. We will 13 have been over here at your office for seven 14 and a half hours, with an hour out for lunch, 15 which means that we would have been in 16 attendance at this deposition for six and a 17 half hours. 18 I'm sure that the judge 19 contemplated that what he was permitting you 20 to do with respect to further inquiry would 21 be a subset of all of the questions you asked 22 before. I have to believe that he did not 681 1 contemplate that this follow-on deposition 2 would last for the same amount of time that 3 the prior deposition lasted. 4 What I'm suggesting to you is that 5 by 6:00, Mr. Good and I will be thinking 6 about departing. I just urge you to use the 7 next hour as effectively as you can, and if 8 I've made a grievous mistake, then the judge 9 will correct me, but I think after six and a 10 half hours of interrogation on some four 11 limited areas, that's enough. That's where 12 I'm at. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go off the 14 record for 30 seconds, and I'll tell you how 15 much time we've used. Then I'll give you my 16 position on your statement. It will only 17 take about 30 seconds for Mr. Fitton to 18 calculate the time. Mr. Gilligan is someone 19 who specializes in time calculation. 20 MR. GREEN: Add the next hour here. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Excuse me. Why 22 don't we just get the time? 682 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's get how much 2 time today we've used on the record. 3 MR. GREEN: When you get up from 4 the table to tend to someone who comes in at 5 the door, that's your decision, as far as I'm 6 concerned. I've been here. He's been here. 7 We've been available to answer questions. 8 The only time we weren't was when we've gone 9 to lunch. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: When I've gotten up, 11 it's to further the deposition, rather than 12 to impede it. My lack of presence was very 13 short, when I asked someone in the lobby to 14 go into the other room, so there wouldn't be 15 commotion so we could continue with this 16 deposition without distracting the witness, 17 or me or anybody else. We have, according to 18 our calculation, an hour and a half left on a 19 six-hour timeframe, which we've been shooting 20 for to take this deposition today. So we've 21 used about four and a half hours. 22 MR. GREEN: I don't see any six 683 1 hour -- 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Green, I don't 3 mean to interrupt, but can I consult with 4 you? 5 MR. GREEN: Yes. Do you want to 6 shut me up? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: I wouldn't even 8 think of trying. 9 Are we ready to go? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. GREEN: We're waiting for a 12 question. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Did we resolve 14 anything in terms of how much longer, 15 Mr. Green, you would allow this to continue? 16 MR. GREEN: Let's just carry on 17 till 6:00. Maybe you'll be so fatigued 18 you'll -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe I'll just drop 20 over. 21 MR. GREEN: You'll drop out of the 22 chair. Let's keep going. 684 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Referring you to Exhibit 28, Bates 3 Number 24787, top of the page, wherein it 4 states, "Virtually everyone agrees that the 5 Willey letters are, at a minimum, 6 inconsequential, and at most, very helpful to 7 the President's position. No one believes 8 that the letters are in any way damaging to 9 him. So why on earth would the President or 10 his attorneys conspire to violate the rules 11 of the legal proceeding and cover them up?" 12 Did you write that Mr. Good? 13 A I've never seen this before, 14 Mr. Klayman. 15 Q Do you know who wrote this? 16 A I've never seen this before, so I 17 wouldn't have any idea of the author. 18 Q Have you ever had any kind of 19 discussion with anyone at The White House, or 20 anywhere else, to the effect of what I've 21 just read to you, that virtually everyone 22 agrees that the Willey letters are at a 685 1 minimum consequential? 2 A I don't recall having any 3 discussions on that subject. 4 Q Do you know whether you saw any 5 correspondence that reflected that subject? 6 A No, I have not seen any 7 correspondence. 8 Q Look to the third paragraph. "Then 9 there's the law. The Paula Jones case is 10 a hard fought legal proceeding, not a polite 11 game of cricket. The President is under no 12 obligation to make nice to Mrs. Jones' 13 lawyers." 14 Have you ever had any discussion 15 with anyone at The White House or outside of 16 The White House to that effect? 17 A That the Paula Jones' case is a 18 legal proceeding? 19 Q No, that the President is under no 20 obligation to make nice to Mrs. Jones' 21 lawyers. 22 A No, sir. 686 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. This is 2 beyond the scope. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Look at the fourth paragraph. "It 5 is not as if Mr. Campbell et al. are ignorant 6 of the difference between Mr. Clinton the 7 person and Mr. Clinton the President. 8 Indeed, they have submitted document requests 9 to The White House, and The White House has 10 complied, but they did not ask The White 11 House for the Willey letters, so The White 12 House had no obligation to turn them over. 13 By the way, when Mr. Starr asked for this 14 material, he knew where to come. The 15 subpoena was served on, you guessed it, The 16 White House." 17 Have you ever had any discussions 18 about the matters I've just read to you with 19 anyone at The White House or outside of The 20 White House? 21 A My answer is no. 22 Q Did anyone ever come to you and ask 687 1 you or anyone else in your office from The 2 White House, where did those Willey letters 3 come from? What file did you take them out 4 of? 5 A We would have documented the files 6 that they came out of. 7 Q My question was, did anyone in The 8 White House ever ask you that question? 9 A If anyone would have, it would have 10 been the Counsel's Office, and we would have 11 provided that information to them. 12 Q Did they ask you that question? 13 A They did not ask me that question. 14 Q Did they ask anybody else in your 15 office that question? 16 A Without going back and asking my 17 staff, I can't answer that. 18 Q Did your office provide that 19 information to The White House Counsel's 20 Office, what files the Willey letters came 21 out of, at any time? 22 A Any files that we pulled for the 688 1 Counsel's Office, we would have documented 2 where they came from. 3 Q Did you provide that information to 4 The White House Counsel's Office? 5 A If The White House Counsel's Office 6 asked for it, yes, we would have. 7 Q Did you provide the information, 8 yes or no? 9 A I didn't do it personally. 10 Q Do you know of someone else who 11 did? 12 A I think I know who did the search 13 on this. 14 Q Who did it? 15 A Tom Taggart. 16 Q Did Mr. Taggart provide information 17 to The White House Counsel's Office where 18 Willey's letters were kept and maintained at 19 any time? 20 A Without talking with him, I can't 21 answer that. 22 Q You don't know right now? 689 1 A I do not know. I did not see what 2 he gave to them. 3 Q Do you know what he said to them? 4 A No, I do not. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 6 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 7 Exhibit 29. 8 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 29 9 was marked for identification.) 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q This consists of a document 12 spanning Bates Number 24958 through and 13 including 24961. Have you ever seen this 14 document before? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Do you know who produced any such 17 document? 18 A No, I do not. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I'll 20 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 30 21 that spans Bates Number 24966 through and 22 including 24969. 690 1 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 30 2 was marked for identification.) 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Fitton, are you 4 getting tired? 5 MR. FITTON: No, I'm just revving 6 up. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Fitton's a night 8 person. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q This is a document which lists 11 certain communications that appears with 12 members of the media. Take an opportunity to 13 look at it and tell me if you've ever seen 14 this document before? 15 A No, sir, I have not. 16 Q Have you ever discussed the 17 Kathleen Willey letters with any member of 18 the media? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Do you know of anyone in The White 21 House who has? 22 A I can't speak for The White House 691 1 staff, Mr. Klayman. 2 Q Look at the right-hand corner of 3 page 24966, right-hand corner, 3-16 Messages. 4 The Kathleen Willey letters were released on 5 March 16, 1998, correct? 6 A I don't know the date they were 7 released by The White House. 8 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the 9 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 31. 10 What date were the Kathleen Willey 11 letters provided by the Office of Records 12 Management to The White House Counsel's 13 Office? 14 A I would have to check the records 15 themselves on that, Mr. Klayman. I do not 16 know. 17 Q Was it in and around March 16, 18 1998? 19 A You'd have to talk to Mr. Taggart, 20 or you'd have to allow us to look at the 21 records to see. 22 Q Would you check that date and tell 692 1 us from which records you came to the answer? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, if you 3 want to make any discovery requests, you will 4 direct them to me, please. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Green, would you 6 do that with your client? 7 MR. GREEN: Just direct them to the 8 department, to the party in the case. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Show you what I'll 10 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 31. 11 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 31 12 was marked for identification.) 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q This is a document Bates Numbers 15 24962. It's in handwriting. It says at the 16 top, Scott Pelley; it looks like. 457-4461. 17 Do you know a Scott Pelley or anything to 18 that effect? 19 A The name means nothing to me. 20 Q Do you know whose handwriting this 21 is? 22 A No, sir. 693 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Continuing 2 objection. Beyond the scope of the judge's 3 order. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q If I told you that this person was 6 from CBS News, would that refresh your 7 recollection? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you know where this document 10 emanates at The White House? 11 A No, sir. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Show you what I'll 13 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 32. 14 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 32 15 was marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q This is document Bates Number 18 24963. It's in handwriting. Have you ever 19 seen this document before? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Do you know whose handwriting this 22 is? 694 1 A No, sir. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Same scope 3 objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q The reference to CO, does that 6 refer to The White House Counsel's Office? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Calls 8 for speculation. 9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, you've 10 raked me over the coals for so long about 11 making guesses and making speculation, any 12 response to that question would be pure 13 speculation on my part. You know, if you 14 want me to, I will. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q I take issue with your 17 characterization. It was you, was it not, 18 who said that, unless you had 100 percent 19 recall, you'd say I don't remember? 20 A That's right, but you've just 21 accused me -- 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 695 1 THE WITNESS: Two offices come to 2 mind, Counsel's Office, which was mentioned, 3 and Communications Office. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Is that how they're referred to at 6 The White House, Counsel's Office, CO? 7 A No. 8 Q Is Communications Office referred 9 to as CO? 10 A I don't see that abbreviation in 11 reference to either one of those. 12 Q Have you ever heard either office 13 referred to as such in The White House, CO? 14 A No, whenever they're referred to, 15 they're referred to as the Communications 16 Office, the Press Office or the Counsel's 17 Office. CO is not part of my vocabulary, and 18 I don't think it is within The White House. 19 Q You've never seen that as an 20 abbreviation for the Counsel's Office at The 21 White House? 22 A I don't recall ever seeing that as 696 1 an abbreviation. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 3 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 4 next exhibit. 5 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 33 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q This is Bates Number 24964, it 9 states, "This was a special situation 10 involving someone who went before a 11 nationwide audience, and we believed it was 12 important to provide a context for the 13 President's comments that he was mystified by 14 this turn of events. As a general matter, 15 records are kept of correspondence involving 16 the President, and these letters were 17 retrieved from those files. To the best of 18 our knowledge, we have released all the 19 letters between Ms. Willey and the 20 President." 21 Did you write this, Mr. Good? 22 A No, sir, I've never seen this 697 1 before. 2 Q Do you know who did? 3 A No, sir. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to questions 5 about this document as beyond the scope. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I'll 7 ask the court reporter to mark as the next 8 exhibit. 9 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 34 10 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q This is a document labeled "Talking 13 Points" -- 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, before 15 you ask your question, I'd just like to have 16 a copy of it. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q It is Bates Number 24965. You've 19 heard the use of the phrase "talking points" 20 at The White House; haven't you? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q It's a commonly used phrase to 698 1 describe how one should respond to questions, 2 correct? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q It says here, "In her 60 Minutes 5 interview, Ms. Willey said that after she met 6 with the President, she felt angry, and that 7 she'd been taken advantage of and that he had 8 betrayed their friendship through his 9 actions." 10 Reading down to the third 11 paragraph, "In fact, since the November 1993 12 meeting, Ms. Willey has written the President 13 and his executive assistant several letters 14 and called on several occasions, seeking to 15 seek or meet with the President. The tone of 16 her letters was consistently friendly and 17 admiring." 18 Did you write this? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Do you know who wrote these talking 21 points? 22 A No, sir. 699 1 Q Take an opportunity and review the 2 whole talking points. I just wanted to 3 review those two sections to key you in. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: In the meantime, I 5 object to this as beyond the scope. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Show you what I'll 7 ask the court reporter to mark as the next 8 exhibit. 9 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 35 10 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Having read the whole thing, do you 13 have any further answers that you haven't 14 already provided? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Were any of the exhibits that I've 17 just shown you scanned into the computer 18 system of the Office of Records Management? 19 A Mr. Klayman, I just said, I have 20 never seen these before, so how could I tell 21 you yes or no on that? 22 Q Others may have scanned these 700 1 documents into your computers, correct? 2 A It's hard for me to believe that 3 these could have been scanned in, because 4 there's no codes. There's no information on 5 them that indicates any of that. 6 Q Were the Kathleen Willey letters 7 themselves ever scanned into the computer 8 systems of the Office of Records Management? 9 A I have never checked to see if they 10 were scanned in or not. Again, Mr. Taggart 11 would be the one to ask that question of. 12 Q Have you ever talked to him about 13 that? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q I show you the next exhibit. This 16 is a document Bates Numbers 24978. 17 "Outstanding questions: What does The White 18 House doing about subpoenas issued by Larry 19 Klayman to four White House employees, ABC? 20 Two, can we find out anything about Kathleen 21 Willey's volunteer work at either the 22 Correspondence Office or the Social Office, 701 1 dates when she moved to health, et cetera, 2 Washington Post/various. What is the date of 3 the picture used by 60 Minutes? Various." 4 Did anyone ever confront you or 5 anyone else at the Office of Records 6 Management with these questions? 7 A Have these questions been asked of 8 me or any member of The White House Office of 9 Records Management? 10 Q That's correct. 11 A They certainly haven't been asked 12 of me, and I am unaware if they have been 13 asked of members of my staff. 14 Q Have you ever seen this document 15 before? 16 A No, sir. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 18 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 19 next exhibit. 20 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 36 21 was marked for identification.) 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 702 1 Q This is a letter from The 2 Washington Post of March 17, 1998, from 3 Leonard Downey Junior, executive editor to 4 Charles F. C. Ruff, Bates Number 24976. Take 5 an opportunity to review that and tell me 6 whether you've ever seen this document 7 before. 8 A Well, I can say I have not seen it 9 before. 10 Q Do you know whether this document 11 has been scanned into the computers of the 12 Office of Records Management? 13 A Once again, if I haven't seen it 14 before, I cannot answer your question in the 15 affirmative. I would have to say no, I do 16 not know if it's been scanned into our 17 system. 18 Q If it was scanned, do you know who 19 would have done it? 20 A The scanning of documents into our 21 system is done by a number of members of our 22 staff, Mr. Klayman. 703 1 Q The answer is, you can't identify 2 any particular one? 3 A I can go through the names for you 4 of people who normally do scanning, if you'd 5 like. 6 Q Go ahead. To the extent you 7 haven't already testified to that at your 8 prior deposition, give me any additional 9 names. 10 A Well, I don't remember the names of 11 the people I identified earlier, so the best 12 I can do is go through those that come to 13 mind. 14 Q Go ahead. 15 A Charles Nash, Phyllis Tucker, Wanda 16 Evans, Magdalene Evans, Russell Loiselle. 17 We're talking about something around March of 18 last year. Howard Westray. Those would be 19 the members of my staff that most likely 20 would have been doing scanning. 21 Now, I need to add, that there are 22 some volunteers we have, who come in one day 704 1 a week and also, among other things, do 2 scanning. 3 Q Who are they? 4 A The three that come to mind, Robert 5 Barnett, a Mary Waters, and Martin -- his 6 last name slips my mind at the moment. 7 Q Are there any volunteers from the 8 Democratic National Committee that work in 9 your office from time to time? 10 A I do not believe any of these 11 people who are volunteers are members of the 12 Democratic National Committee. 13 Q No, but a general question, during 14 the Clinton Administration, have there been 15 any persons from the Democratic National 16 Committee that have worked in your office, 17 Office of Records Management? 18 A I'm unaware of any members of the 19 Democratic National Committee who would have 20 been volunteers in our office. 21 Q Are you aware of anybody who's 22 worked at the DNC, who then came over in your 705 1 office at The White House, not volunteers, 2 but just employed? 3 A Absolutely none. Again, I made 4 that point earlier. I would not hire 5 somebody who had strong partisan political 6 affiliations. 7 Q Have you ever spoken to Leonard 8 Downey of The Washington Post? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Karen DeYoung? 11 A Who is she? 12 Q John Harris? 13 A I don't know -- oh. No. 14 Q Reporters of The Washington Post? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Peter Baker? 17 A Again, we do not talk to members of 18 the news media. 19 Q Peter Baker? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Do you know of anyone who may have? 22 A No, sir. 706 1 Q Did you ever talk to Charles Ruff 2 about the Kathleen Willey letters? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Do you know of anyone who has? 5 A Within the Office of Records 6 Management? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No, sir. 9 Q Anywhere else at The White House? 10 A I can't speak for the other members 11 of The White House staff, sir. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 13 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 14 next exhibit. 15 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 37 16 was marked for identification.) 17 MR. GILLIGAN: 37, correct, 18 Mr. Holley? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Correct. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 37 22 before? 707 1 A No, sir, I haven't. 2 Q Do you know whose handwriting this 3 is? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q Whose handwriting is it? 6 A Well, let me say that the smaller 7 print handwriting, I recognize as Tom 8 Taggart's. The larger handwriting, "Tom 9 6611. Cheryl Mills called." I'm not sure who 10 that is, but it's clear it's somebody within 11 the Office of Records Management. 12 Q Can you recognize any other 13 handwriting on this page? Is there a third 14 handwriting? 15 A Everything I see appears to be Tom 16 Taggart's, with the exception of that one 17 that I'm unable to identify. 18 Q Which part is that? 19 A "Tom 6611. Cheryl Mills called." 20 Q Who is Tom? 21 A Tom Taggart. 22 Q 6611, what is that number? Do you 708 1 know? 2 A I believe it's the telephone number 3 for the Counsel's Office -- one of the 4 numbers for the Counsel's Office in the West 5 Wing. 6 Q Then to the right, it says, "C/B 7 7:46 a.m. Wants all Kathleen Willey 8 correspondence, 3/16/98." Do you know whose 9 initials those are? 10 A That's Tom Taggart's. 11 Q Did I read that correctly? 12 A I don't know what the C/B might 13 stand for. Perhaps you can help me out on 14 that. 15 Q Does this refresh your 16 recollection, as to whether a call was 17 received from The White House Counsel's 18 Office? Cheryl Mills, having placed the 19 call, wanting all Kathleen Willey 20 correspondence on or about March 16, 1998? 21 A Mr. Klayman, you asked, does it 22 refresh my memory. I didn't have any memory 709 1 of this to start with. I'm seeing this 2 document for the first time. 3 Q You were aware that a request was 4 made by The White House Counsel's Office for 5 Willey letters, correct? 6 A Not at the time this came in, no. 7 Q When did you become aware of that? 8 A I think when I saw the evening news 9 and the article in The Washington Post. 10 Q In fact, the Willey letters were 11 released on March 17, 1998, by The White 12 House to the public, correct? 13 A I defer to you on the date they 14 were released. 15 Q In the middle of the page it says 16 Ed Hughes. Can you read that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What does that say? 19 A I interpret that to mean Ed Hughes 20 picked up cases at 8:50 a.m. on 3/16/98. 21 Q Tom Taggart made that entry? 22 A That's his initials and his 710 1 handwriting. 2 Q When it refers to cases, cases of 3 documents? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Ed Hughes worked with Craig 6 Livingstone; did he not? 7 A At one point, yes. 8 Q Do you know what his position was 9 when he worked with Mr. Livingstone? 10 A He was one of several members of 11 his staff. 12 Q Do you know what he was doing as 13 one of the members of his staff? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Do you know where he was working in 16 The White House on or about March 16, 1998? 17 A He worked in the Counsel's Office, 18 second floor, West Wing. 19 Q Do you know what he was doing in 20 the Counsel's Office at that time? 21 A I'm never sure what those people 22 over there are doing. 711 1 Q Do you know who he was working 2 under? Who was his supervisor in the 3 Counsel's Office, on or about March 16, 1998? 4 A My understanding, the way that 5 office operates, I'm not sure that they work 6 under anybody except for Mr. Ruff and his 7 deputy, at this point Cheryl Mills. There's 8 a woman there who is more or less the lead 9 secretary. Whether or not Mr. Hughes 10 reported to her or not, I don't know. 11 Q Who's that? 12 A Ora Theard, I believe it is. First 13 name, or Ora. 14 Q Who is she secretary to? 15 A Mr. Ruff. 16 Q Mr. Hughes at that time worked with 17 Ms. Theard? 18 A He worked in the same area that she 19 worked. There are four desks in there. He 20 occupied one of them. 21 Q What were Ms. Theard's duties and 22 responsibilities? 712 1 A Mr. Klayman, I don't know. 2 Q Do you know what Mr. Hughes's 3 duties and responsibilities were at this 4 time? 5 A I told you earlier, I do not know. 6 Q The numbers that are on the left, 7 do you see the check marks, and then there 8 are numbers? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q What do those numbers connote from 11 the top to the bottom? 12 A Those represent the identification 13 numbers of cases that Mr. Taggart, obviously, 14 thought responsive to the request. The check 15 mark I would interpret to mean that he made a 16 copy of each of those. 17 Q The procedure is that you put a 18 check mark when you make a copy? 19 A That's Mr. Taggart's procedure. 20 Q When you say cases, what do you 21 mean by cases? 22 A If each one of them would have come 713 1 in individually, they would have been treated 2 as a separate case. Just as where you have 3 Bates numbers on these, we would have 4 identification numbers on ours. 5 Q Each document is called a separate 6 case; is that correct? 7 A There may be multiple documents 8 within a case. 9 Q The Kathleen Willey correspondence, 10 if there were multiple documents, were 11 referred to as separate cases? 12 A I mean, I can -- looks like there 13 are 12 cases here. You also see in the 14 middle of that listing, the word name "file." 15 We have a large file that is not in our 16 computer database. It is, by and large, 17 correspondence, and it's filed alphabetically 18 by the name of the person or the 19 organization. I would interpret that entry 20 there to mean that Mr. Taggart also checked 21 the name file. 22 Q Therefore these particular files 714 1 referred to Kathleen Willey by name? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 3 mischaracterizes. 4 THE WITNESS: His search of the 5 name file would have been done on the basis 6 of the name "Willey." 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q It would appear from this document 9 that he found certain name files reference to 10 the name Willey? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: That is not clear. 13 The name file cases carry no identification 14 numbers, so I'm somewhat at a loss there. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q That would be your conclusion, 17 based upon this document though, correct? 18 A It would be my conclusion that he 19 searched both our computer database and found 20 some cases relevant, those being the cases 21 that carry those numbers that you see there. 22 He would have also checked the name file. 715 1 There's nothing beside that name file, so I 2 have no idea whether or not he found any 3 Willey material in our name file. 4 Q Do you see at the bottom OA 9135 5 NAM 6651? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Those numbers there? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q What does it say to the right in 10 handwriting? 11 A "Pulled K. Willey." I'm having 12 trouble deciphering the next there -- 13 something "and gave to Ed Hughes. Called at 14 9:36 a.m." 15 Q PCS, would that mean pieces? 16 A That wouldn't fit. 17 Q Is that OCS or PCS? 18 A The three items that you see to the 19 left of that, OA 9135, followed by what I 20 know to be NARA meeting, NARA, National 21 Archives, and then the number 6651. What I 22 see there tells me that there were three 716 1 boxes, that we had in courtesy storage at the 2 National Archives, that Mr. Taggart reviewed, 3 because there was something, apparently, in 4 the inventories of those three boxes that led 5 him to believe he needed to search those 6 three boxes. Whatever he found in those 7 three boxes, he apparently gave to Ed Hughes. 8 Q Is this the handwriting of Taggart 9 that we just read? 10 A Yes, it is. 11 Q Read the bottom handwriting. 12 A "RAM printouts of photos, K. W. 13 requested." 14 Q Plus 1? 15 A I'm not sure what that is. "From," 16 and then he gives an identification number of 17 a case, "068654," that he "gave to Ed Hughes 18 in West Wing lobby, 3/16/98 at 11:25 a.m." 19 Q Is that Taggart's handwriting too? 20 A Yes, it is. 21 Q Do you know what those photos were? 22 A Well, I had not seen them, so I 717 1 don't know, but if you want, I'll be more 2 than happy to guess for you. 3 Q Do any of the things you've just 4 read refresh your recollection as to what 5 information about Ms. Willey was provided to 6 The White House Counsel's Office? 7 A Again, I can't accept your term 8 "refresh," because I have not seen this 9 before, so it is new to me. And Mr. Taggart, 10 as you can see, was the one who provided all 11 of this. 12 Q Were any of the matters that you've 13 just read from this exhibit brought to your 14 attention by Mr. Taggart or anybody else, in 15 and around March 16th of 1998? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q Or at any time thereafter? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q You previously testified that you 20 saw at least one Kathleen Willey letter. Do 21 you remember that? 22 A That's -- 718 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: What I was referring 3 to is the one that appeared in the evening 4 news on television and/or in The Washington 5 Post the next day. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever see any Kathleen 8 Willey letters in person? 9 A I don't remember them. 10 Q You don't know one way or the 11 other? 12 A Kathleen Willey was not anyone that 13 I knew anything about, so -- 14 Q I'm not asking you that. Did you 15 ever see a letter from Kathleen Willey to the 16 President, or vice versa, in person? 17 A I do not remember it. 18 Q You don't know one way or the 19 other? Can't say you did? Can't say you 20 didn't? 21 A Mr. Klayman, if I would have seen 22 one after all of this controversy broke out, 719 1 I think I would remember it. Perhaps not. 2 Q The answer is you don't know one 3 way or the other? 4 A If you'll accept that answer, I'll 5 accept it. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Show you what I'll 7 ask the court reporter to mark as the next 8 exhibit. 9 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 38 10 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Have you ever seen this document 13 before? This is from a column by Al Kamen of 14 The Washington Post, Bates Number 24981. 15 A Well, Mr. Klayman, I read The 16 Washington Post. I hope you don't expect me 17 to remember every one of the articles I've 18 read there. There's no indication of a date 19 on this. 20 Q Do you remember seeing this before? 21 A No, sir. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Continuing scope 720 1 objection. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Show you what I'll 3 ask the court reporter to mark as the next 4 exhibit. 5 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 39 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q This is Bates Number 24983. Have 9 you seen this document before? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q The handwriting, "Tom 6611. Cheryl 12 Mills called." Do you know whose handwriting 13 that is? 14 A That's the same handwriting we 15 spoke to a moment ago. No, I do not know. 16 Q There's additional handwriting in 17 this document, which wasn't in the other 18 exhibit, which is No. 37. You read before, 19 "C/B. 7:46 a.m. Wants all Kathleen Willey 20 correspondence." 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Do you see that? Well, in this 721 1 exhibit, Bates Number 24983, it doesn't have 2 the date next to that, of 3/16/98, with a TT. 3 Do you see that? If you want to compare the 4 two, that's fine. 5 A Okay. 6 Q Do you see that? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q There's no date. Do you know why 9 the date contained on Exhibit 37 is not here 10 on Exhibit 39? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q Now look below. What does it say 13 after the correspondence on Exhibit 39, 14 "Per." 15 A "Per orders." 16 Q Then read below that. 17 A "Hold originals for Terry Good to 18 put in vault, 3/20/98, TT." 19 Q Is that the handwriting of Tom 20 Taggart? 21 A Yes, it is. 22 Q What is meant by "Per orders, 722 1 pulling originals for Terry Good to put in 2 vault"? 3 A Looks like Mr. Taggart is saying 4 that he was asked to put these in the vault. 5 Q He was asked to put these in the 6 vault by you, correct? 7 A Yes, it looks like that's what I 8 told him to do. 9 Q What you put in the vault was the 10 Kathleen Willey correspondence, correct? 11 A I would guess that what I asked him 12 to do was put the originals of these files in 13 there. 14 Q To send the copies to The White 15 House Counsel's Office? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 17 form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A That would be my guess, yes. 21 Q So you did know that Mr. Taggart 22 was pulling the Kathleen Willey 723 1 correspondence on or about March 16, 1998, 2 correct? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 4 form. 5 THE WITNESS: I would stand by my 6 earlier statement, that I was unaware that he 7 was doing it at that time. This clearly 8 looks like, after he had gotten it all 9 together, I asked him to put it in the vault. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q That was on March 20, 1998? 12 A That's the date that he's put 13 there, yes. 14 Q The notation 3/16/98, Tom Taggart, 15 on Exhibit 39, appears to be erased, correct? 16 A I'm at a loss as to explain why 17 it's not there. 18 Q In fact, it was erased so you could 19 claim that you didn't know that these letters 20 were obtained on or about March 16, 1998, 21 correct? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 724 1 form. Assumes facts not in evidence. 2 Argumentative. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Klayman, 4 there's a copy of this in existence with 5 these dates on it, obviously. So there's a 6 document out there that has that date on it. 7 This one does not. I can't explain why this 8 one doesn't, and this one does. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Mr. Good, you received a copy of 11 Exhibit 39 and Exhibit 37 on March 16, 1998, 12 correct? 13 A Pardon me. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 15 form. Mischaracterizes the testimony. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can respond. 18 A No, sir. 19 Q When you received a copy of this 20 document, which is Exhibit 39, you erased the 21 date, 3/16/98, correct? 22 A No, sir. 725 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 2 form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You had somebody else erase the 5 date for you? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q How do you explain it not being 8 there? 9 A I can't. I had not seen this 10 before. This is in Tom Taggart's 11 handwriting. You would have to ask him. 12 Q Looking down on the page, below the 13 entry, "Ed Hughes. T/U cases. 8:50 a.m.," 14 there is something on Exhibit 39 which does 15 not appear on Exhibit 37, wherein it says, 16 "Only optical copy, no paper copy." Do you 17 know whose handwriting that is? 18 A That's Tom Taggart's. 19 Q Do you know what that's in 20 reference to? 21 A I can make a guess. If you'll 22 notice the arrow that comes from that line 726 1 that's TR 005-01, that's the coding we use 2 for photographs, and I suspect what that 3 means is that we had no paper copy of that 4 photograph on file. We only had an optical 5 image of it in the file. 6 Q The check next to it means he made 7 a copy of the optical image? 8 A I see one next to this phrase "No 9 paper copy." 10 Q Right. 11 A I'm not sure what that signifies. 12 You may be right. It may mean that he made a 13 copy of the optical. 14 Q That's the general procedure for 15 Taggart, when he makes a copy of something, 16 he puts a check. I believe that's what you 17 testified to. 18 A That certainly was what he followed 19 in this instance. 20 Q Why did you direct Taggart to put 21 the Willey documents in a vault? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 727 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q The originals. 3 A My guess is, given the nature of 4 these documents, I thought it best to put it 5 in the vault. 6 Q Because you viewed these documents 7 as confidential? 8 A No, sir, not confidential. They 9 are sensitive. 10 Q Why did you view them as sensitive? 11 A Well, you'll notice the date there 12 of 3/20/98. Based on what you have told me, 13 this material was released to the press on 14 3/17. Certainly the sensitivity of this and 15 the controversy surrounding it by 3/20 had 16 become fairly significant, and so I would 17 gather that I told Mr. Taggart, let's keep 18 these files in the vault. 19 Q The reason you instructed 20 Mr. Taggart to put the files in the vault, 21 the Kathleen Willey correspondence, is 22 because you knew that their release had been 728 1 contrary to the Privacy Act? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q That they were covered by the 4 Privacy Act? 5 A No, sir, Mr. Klayman. Had no 6 bearing on that. 7 Q The reason that you told 8 Mr. Taggart to put it in a vault, because you 9 knew that this Willey correspondence was 10 evidence of a crime, correct, and needed to 11 be protected? 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 13 Argumentative. 14 THE WITNESS: No, sir, Mr. Klayman. 15 I told him to put them in there, because 16 that's where we would want to keep things 17 that were more sensitive. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q If they had already been released 20 to the public, then what was sensitive, 21 requiring that they put in a vault? 22 A Again, you're assuming that I would 729 1 know what has been released to the public. I 2 do not know that. 3 Q Without regard as to whether the 4 release violated the Privacy Act or not, you 5 knew that there was a significant issue, as 6 to whether the Willey letters should be 7 released to the public? You knew that on 8 March 20, 1998, correct? 9 A No, sir. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 11 vagueness. 12 THE WITNESS: No, that was not the 13 reason for us to put them in the vault. It's 14 very simple. There was some sensitivity 15 associated with them, and I thought it best 16 to preserve and protect them by putting them 17 in the vault. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did someone tell you to order 20 Taggart to put them in the vault? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q You, Terry Good, on behalf of 730 1 yourself and the Office of Records Management 2 wanted to make sure that evidence existed as 3 to exactly what had been provided of 4 Ms. Willey's correspondence to The White 5 House Counsel's Office, correct? 6 A No, it's more a matter of 7 preserving the records, Mr. Klayman. 8 Q The reason you wanted to keep that 9 record of what had been provided by your 10 office to The White House Counsel's Office, 11 is in the event The White House Counsel's 12 Office sought to blame you, Terry Good, and 13 the Office of Records Management for doing 14 something improper? 15 A What would they have accused us of 16 doing, Mr. Klayman? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: What have we done? 19 It's pretty clear what we did. We gave these 20 to Ed Hughes. Is that improper? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q At the time these documents were 731 1 provided to The White House Counsel's Office, 2 the Willey correspondence, you, meaning you 3 Terry Good or the Office of Records 4 Management, knew that this correspondence was 5 going to be used to affect the reputation of 6 Kathleen Willey in the public domain? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, sir, we did not 9 know. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q In fact, at the time, it was 12 foreseeable that these letters would be used 13 by The White House to affect the reputation 14 of Kathleen Willey in the public domain, 15 correct? 16 A No, sir. We do not ask questions 17 of the Counsel's Office when they ask for 18 documents, Mr. Klayman. 19 Q You are aware that President 20 Clinton has stated that these Kathleen Willey 21 letters, once released, "shredded her 22 credibility"? 732 1 A I don't remember him making that 2 statement. 3 Q Do you remember him making a 4 similar statement? 5 A If he made it, I'm sure I saw it at 6 the time, but I don't remember it now. 7 Q Looking down to the column on the 8 left, in comparing Exhibit 39 to 37, opposite 9 the numbers of the case files and the name 10 files, there is some additional information 11 which appears to have been written in on 12 Exhibit 39, correct? Look opposite 071321. 13 A That's the one I just made 14 reference to, PR 005-01. 15 Q Right. What does that numerical 16 designation mean? 17 A 071321? 18 Q No. PR -- 19 A That's not a numerical. That's an 20 alpha numeric classification coding system. 21 Q What is that? 22 A As I mentioned earlier, that's an 733 1 indication that this is a photograph. 2 Q Do all of these entries that do not 3 appear in Exhibit 37, opposite the numbers on 4 the left-hand column, refer to photographs? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q What do they refer to? 7 A To the extent that there is some 8 alpha numeric code alongside them, I can give 9 you some broad ideas. The first one 017380 10 is a gift of some sort. The next one, 11 031265, PP 010-02 has to do with something 12 that involves the President. It's a category 13 that causes great confusion for people 14 outside of Records Management. The term is 15 "Presidential Personal." I'm unaware at the 16 moment what 10-2 stands for; that's a 17 sub-breakdown. Moving on down to 019588, 18 again we find another PP 010-04. The one 19 underneath that is also PP 10-04. 20 Q I show you what I'll ask the court 21 reporter to mark as Exhibit 40. It's a 22 memorandum for the record "RE: Kathleen 734 1 Willey." 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check, 3 Mr. Holley. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5:57. 5 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 40 6 was marked for identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Showing you this document, Bates 9 Number 24982, Exhibit 40, have you ever seen 10 it before? 11 A This would have been a memo that I 12 would have done for Tom, and what it did, 13 there would have been several of these. I 14 suggested, I think, that he do something like 15 this and file this in those file locations 16 where he found Kathleen Willey documents. 17 Q When you say Tom, Tom Taggart? 18 A Tom Taggart. 19 Q It was your suggestion that Tom 20 Taggart prepare this document? 21 A I would have given him a blank copy 22 of this, and you can see there are three 735 1 different areas, subject file, ID number, 2 alpha file ID number, alpha file name, and he 3 could have made as many xerox copies of this 4 as he needed, and then those would have gone 5 in the place of the document, so that anyone 6 going there to look for that would know that 7 that file had been refiled under 256747 JL. 8 Q This document was prepared on March 9 16, 1998? 10 A As I see it, the date under there 11 here that Tom did this is 3/17/98. 12 Q You gave him the form on March 16, 13 '98? 14 A I don't know when I gave him that 15 form. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me. There's 17 discussion here. Can we ask a question? 18 It's interrupting us. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Go ahead. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q A document originally filed here 22 under one of the following headings, what do 736 1 those headings stand for, subject file ID, 2 alpha file ID, alpha file name? 3 A Once again, this goes to the manner 4 in which our filing system is set up. What I 5 have labeled here as subject file would be 6 those documents that are in our computer 7 database. The alpha file ID is part of our 8 filing system that, by and large, would 9 contain correspondence, of kind of a routine 10 nature, and finally, the alpha file would be 11 that alphabetical file that I had mentioned 12 earlier, that is even more routine 13 correspondence. 14 Q Kathleen Willey documentation was 15 found in all three of those different types 16 of files? 17 A I don't know that. As I say, I 18 made this blank form up for Tom to use. 19 Q When it says, "Has been filed with 20 other documents in 256747 JL," what does that 21 mean? 22 A JL is a category for judicial legal 737 1 subject matter. The 256747 is an ID number, 2 and what I'm seeing here is that Tom, 3 apparently, put all of those together, and we 4 filed them, or he filed them in the vault 5 under the subject of JL 256747. 6 Q What does it say below? Is that 7 his handwriting? 8 A Yes. "Material to be removed from 9 file and filed under this number, per T Good, 10 in Vault Room 84, Old Executive Office 11 Building, 3/17/98." Based on these other 12 documents that you have shown me, he 13 apparently did the search on 3/16. The 14 documents that he had copied and provided to 15 Ed Hughes were then refiled in the vault 16 under this ID number and this subject code, 17 and in their place would have been one of 18 these forms, filled out accordingly. 19 Q The documents were pulled on 20 March 16th. You instructed him on March 16th 21 to send the documents to the vault. He 22 prepared this document -- 738 1 A I'm not sure. 2 Q 04982, and then sent the documents 3 to the vault? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure when I 6 instructed him to do it, but clearly, he did 7 it on the 17th, so it was either the 16th or 8 the 17th. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Are there records that you would 11 have in the Office of Records Management that 12 could confirm that you instructed Mr. Taggart 13 to send the Willey documents to the vault on 14 March 16, 1998? 15 A Oh, I think this is a document that 16 addresses that, but not on the 16th, rather 17 on the 17th. 18 Q Right. Is there a document that 19 could confirm that this instruction was given 20 by you on the 16th of March? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Since Mr. Taggart did 739 1 the Kathleen Willey search, I suspect that, 2 had there been any other record relating to 3 that, he would have found it and copied it. 4 So in answer to your question, apparently 5 there is nothing beyond this, unless you have 6 something else to show. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Is there something generically 9 that's kept by the Office of Records 10 Management that would have identified when 11 you gave an instruction? 12 A No, sir. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 14 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 15 Exhibit 41. 16 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 41 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Showing this document to you, 20 Exhibit 41, Document 25001, have you even 21 seen this before? It says at the top "Search 22 Query." 740 1 A No. I know what it is, because I 2 know the form and what this information is, 3 but having seen this one, no. 4 Q What is it? 5 A It's a printout of a search that 6 has been done for two words within our 7 computerized database, one being KATHL, and 8 dollar sign means and anything else after 9 that, and the word Willey. 10 Q It tells you below Subject that 11 there are three boxes received by Office of 12 Records Management from Presidential 13 Personnel on April 17, 1997, with inventories 14 contained in Box 1? 15 A Yes, but there's more to it that 16 you missed. 17 Q Enlighten me. 18 A Do you see the number 216359? 19 That's the identification number of that 20 particular case. 21 Q This shows that by putting in the 22 name Kathleen, dollar sign Willey, that your 741 1 records system in the Office of Records 2 Management can identify three boxes of 3 documents kept concerning Kathleen Willey? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 5 Assumes facts not in evidence. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Correct? 8 A Once again, if you'll notice on 9 that same line that I mentioned the 10 identification number on it, it says document 11 equals 14 of 19. That means, in this 12 particular instance, when we punched in that 13 word KATHL dollar sign and Willey, we got 19 14 hits, as we call it. 15 The document you're looking at 16 right now is the 14th of those 19. That 17 particular case, the OPID means the operator 18 ID, the person who entered that information 19 into our database was Howard Westray. The 20 date of the document itself was April 28th of 21 '97. The record type simply indicates that 22 this was a memo, an inventory. The L media 742 1 means letter, but in this case, it simply 2 means an internal memo. ADDR would be the 3 line where you put addresses. There's 4 obviously no address here, and so you get 5 down finally to the subject line, which you 6 read. And yes, you were correct three boxes 7 were received in records management from the 8 Office of Presidential Personnel on 4/17/97, 9 with accompanying inventories. 10 Q It was in these three boxes that 11 the Kathleen Willey correspondence was 12 contained? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: If you'll turn to the 15 page that says -- has the Bates Number 16 025004, you will see the name Kathleen 17 Willey. I can only make an assumption on 18 this, Mr. Klayman. Boxes coming from 19 Presidential Personnel are going to contain 20 resumes with endorsements, and I can only 21 guess that if her name appeared here, it was 22 one of two things. Either that box contains 743 1 a resume of Kathleen Willey, or it contained 2 an endorsement by her of somebody else. 3 That's the most I can tell you on the basis 4 of this. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Do you have independent knowledge 7 outside of this document? 8 A No, I do not. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 10 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 11 Exhibit 42. 12 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 42 13 was marked for identification.) 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Turning to Bates Number 25014 -- 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I would 17 like to have a copy of the document before 18 you start asking questions. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We will be happy to 20 give it to you. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 744 1 Q Exhibit 42, Bates Number 025014, 2 shows a similar search, does it not, for 3 Kathleen Willey documentation on your 4 computer system? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q In this case, what was being 7 searched for, Presidential draft letters for 8 '93, '94, '95, '96, and '97, correct? 9 A Once again, Mr. Klayman, if you'll 10 notice, this is Document 15 of 19, so in this 11 instance, the computer pulled this particular 12 case up, following the previous one we just 13 talked about, and in this instance, what we 14 have here are letters that were drafted 15 during one of the years mentioned. 16 And again, I can only make some 17 assumptions here that one of the draft 18 letters -- again, I can't tell. I don't know 19 if this was a draft of the letter to Kathleen 20 Willey, or it's an incoming letter from her. 21 My assumption would be that this was a letter 22 to her in regards to a book by Jeffrey 745 1 Archer. The date -- I'm uncertain as to what 2 that date might signify. 3 Q With regard to the correspondence 4 written by Kathleen Willey to the President, 5 the same type of search could be conducted by 6 your office to locate those documents, 7 correct? 8 A Once again, you apparently aren't 9 hearing what I'm telling you. There were 19 10 documents in our database that had those two 11 words in them. 12 Q What two words? 13 A KATHL followed by whatever might be 14 after that, and the word Willey. 15 Q Those documents would have included 16 the Kathleen Willey correspondence to the 17 President? 18 A If those documents were in our 19 computer database. 20 Q You would have been able to call 21 those documents up by putting in those words 22 Kathleen, KATHL and dollar sign Willey? 746 1 A Yes. We could have done it 2 spelling out her first name, but in some 3 instances, it's better to shorten it to 4 increase the chances of getting all the 5 documents. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 7 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 8 Exhibit 43. 9 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 43 10 was marked for identification.) 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check, 12 Mr. Willey? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Willey? 14 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm sorry, 15 Mr. Holley. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 6:11. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: You're getting 18 delirious, Mr. Gilligan. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I only wish. It 20 would certainly be more fun. 21 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, since 22 you've been at it again, I renew my 747 1 observation that there's nothing in this 2 order that really allows six hours. I don't 3 think there was any court contemplation that 4 you yield to government counsel for a very 5 short cross-examination, and we adjourn. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we have some 7 questions still to ask, and we have been 8 provided, according to the orders and 9 practice, six hours for our direct. If 10 Mr. Gilligan wants to take some cross after 11 that, I'd be happy to provide that to him. 12 MR. GREEN: I don't see anything. 13 It's your position that this order grants you 14 a six hour follow-up deposition on the four 15 subjects delineated by the court; is that 16 really where you're at? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: We will stand by the 18 record of the court and will stand by the 19 statements made during this deposition. We 20 did not have these documents at the time of 21 the first deposition. These documents 22 relates to the questions which the court has 748 1 allowed us to inquire into, and they relate 2 to reasonable follow-up questions. 3 MR. GREEN: I don't think you can 4 tuck under follow-up. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to use 6 up my time. I think we spent more time in 7 colloquy, but we have some questions that 8 remain. I'll be happy to provide 9 Mr. Gilligan or anybody else, yourself 10 included, Mr. Green, time for 11 cross-examination, but I'd like to proceed. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Showing you Exhibit 43, have you 14 seen this document before? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Did you see it on or about 17 March 23, 1998? 18 A Pardon me, sir? 19 Q Did you see it on or about 20 March 23, 1998? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q This document is from you to 749 1 Michelle Peterson, Request for Information. 2 It says, "RE: On March 19, 1998, you 3 telephoned to ask me to search through the 4 records in ORM," Office of Records 5 Management, "custody for information relative 6 to three individuals: Macon Landow, Jack 7 Palladino, and Julie Steel. On March 20th, I 8 responded with a memorandum and copies of 9 relevant documents. Hours later, I received 10 a memorandum from Charles Ruff, asking the 11 search to include documents relevant to 12 Kathleen Willey. Asked for copies of those 13 documents in ORM custody relevant to 14 Mrs. Willey. Please note that these were 15 provided to Cheryl Mills several days 16 previously, except for the working notes 17 compiled by Tom Taggart in the course of 18 responding to her request. These are 19 included with this packet." 20 You wrote that, correct? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q This is an accurate statement of 750 1 what you wrote, correct? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Is there anything in here that's 4 wrong? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Is this Michelle Peterson, one of 7 the lawyers in the room here today? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Can you identify her for us? Is 10 she in blue? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 MR. GREEN: That's not blue. 13 THE WITNESS: Purple. 14 MR. GREEN: Stipulate to purple. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Now, do you have a copy of that 17 memorandum that you received from Charles 18 Ruff, asking that the search include 19 documents relevant to Kathleen Willey? 20 A I do not. 21 Q Do you know where it's located? 22 A I would like to believe that I 751 1 would have given it to Mr. Taggart. 2 Q Mr. Taggart should still have it? 3 A I think it would probably be 4 attached to the file. I'm puzzled, if you 5 don't have it. 6 Q What file is that? 7 A This 1258702. 8 Q How is that file labeled? 9 A Once again, Mr. Klayman, you've 10 seen the printouts of the cases in our 11 system. I can only make a guess as to how 12 it's been entered into our computer database, 13 but it would show that it's a memorandum from 14 Terry Good to Michelle Peterson, regarding 15 request for information. And my guess is 16 that in the subject area, there is going to 17 be a reference to Nathan Landow, Jack 18 Palladino, Julie Steel, and Kathleen Willey. 19 Otherwise, we would not have pulled that case 20 up. 21 Q We don't have a copy of that Ruff 22 document. Do you know where it's located? 752 1 A No, sir, I do not. 2 Q Did you ever have a conversation 3 with Mr. Ruff about the memorandum referred 4 to in Exhibit 43? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Did you ever have a conversation 7 with anyone concerning the memorandum from 8 Charles Ruff? 9 A There's the possibility that 10 Michelle Peterson and I may have talked about 11 that. 12 Q What did you talk about? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Just a moment. 14 Objection. I'd like the question read back. 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 MR. KLAYMAN: He needs to change 18 the tape. Going off record. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 20 video record at 6:17. 21 (Recess) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on 753 1 video record at 6:21. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I just 3 want to state for the record, that, earlier, 4 you asked Mr. Good the following question 5 that I objected to. You said, "I take it 6 you've discussed this whole matter of these 7 manuals and whether the Privacy Act applied 8 with either your personal counsel, or your 9 government counsel, or both, correct, before 10 today's deposition?" So far as the question 11 pertained to government counsel, I objected 12 on grounds of attorney-client privilege. I'm 13 withdrawing that objection, and the witness 14 may answer the question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Can you answer that question, 17 please? 18 A I'm being asked if I discussed with 19 either personal counsel or government counsel 20 whether the Privacy Act applied? I do not 21 remember discussing that with government 22 counsel. I believe I've testified here today 754 1 that this question of the Privacy Act was 2 something I discussed with Sidley & Austin 3 attorneys, and that was the reason why I went 4 to the trouble of making copies of those two 5 manuals, to show that there is no evidence in 6 the two most likely documents where it would 7 appear. There's no evidence of any reference 8 to the Privacy Act, in either that White 9 House Staff Manual of '93 or the one in '97. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: What does that have 11 to do, Mr. Gilligan, with my pending 12 question? That's like out of outer space? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: You just wanted to 15 get that into the record; is that all you 16 tried to do, in consulting with Mr. Good? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: I withdrew an 18 objection I asserted earlier, Mr. Klayman, so 19 that we wouldn't have to fight about it 20 afterwards. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: That's inappropriate 22 to consult with the witness when I have a 755 1 pending question on another matter, and then 2 you withdraw a previous objection, after 3 you've consulted with the witness. The 4 witness then comes forward and gives 5 testimony which has nothing to do with my 6 question, which is just wasting my time. It 7 looks to me like it's just simply a game. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I 9 asserted a privilege objection to a question 10 that you asked, and I assume you wanted the 11 answer, and after determining that I had no 12 privilege concerns, I gave you the answer to 13 a question that you asked. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I refuse to have that 15 count to my time. That's something you could 16 have pursued on cross-examination. 17 Now, what was the question that I 18 had pending, Ms. court reporter? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I note that after I 20 withdraw my question, you asked the witness 21 to answer the question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought it was 756 1 something with regard to my pending question. 2 Instead, it was from outer space. 3 (The reporter read the record as 4 requested.) 5 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the 6 specifics. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you just consult about that 9 question with Mr. Gilligan and Mr. Green when 10 you took the break? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: I instruct the 12 witness not to disclose his attorney-client 13 communications with me. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for the record, 15 in the spirit of civility, this is 16 objectionable, and I find out outrageous. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, you 18 asked about a consultation between the 19 witness who works for The White House and The 20 White House Counsel's Office. That, 21 obviously, raises an objection of privilege. 22 You asked a question that potentially invaded 757 1 the attorney-client privilege. I was 2 entitled to find out if it would or not, 3 before the answer came out on the record. 4 Finding that it did not, I allowed the answer 5 to come out. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, the second paragraph, 9 "Attached are copies of those documents in 10 ORM custody relevant to Mrs. Willey. Please 11 note that these were provided to Cheryl Mills 12 several days previously, except for the 13 working notes compiled by Tom Taggart in the 14 course of responding to her request. These 15 are included with this packet." 16 Mr. Good, you had seen those 17 working notes of Mr. Tom Taggart, which I 18 identified as Exhibits 37 and 39, before this 19 deposition today, correct? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 21 form. 22 THE WITNESS: I do not remember 758 1 seeing those, Mr. Klayman. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Exhibits 37 and 39 are the working 4 notes of Tom Taggart, correct? 5 A That appears to be the case, yes. 6 Q When you say, "Attached are copies 7 of those documents in ORM custody relevant to 8 Mrs. Willey," you are providing to Michelle 9 Peterson copies of the documents which 10 Mr. Taggart had provided earlier to The White 11 House Counsel's Office, correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q That the documents which 14 Mr. Taggart provided to The White House 15 Counsel's Office days earlier were provided 16 to Cheryl Mills, correct? 17 A According to the notes that I see 18 of Mr. Taggart, they were provided to Ed 19 Hughes. 20 Q How did you come to state that they 21 were provided to Cheryl Mills in this 22 memorandum? 759 1 A Because it was my understanding 2 that they were going to Cheryl Mills. 3 Q How did you get that understanding? 4 A I don't remember, but I would guess 5 that Mr. Taggart probably told me that. 6 Q Do you now remember what you 7 discussed with Ms. Peterson? 8 A No, sir, I don't. 9 Q Let me ask this question. Do you 10 know whether Mrs. Clinton was involved in the 11 release of Kathleen Willey's letters to the 12 media? 13 A No, sir. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 15 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 16 Exhibit No. 44. 17 (Good Deposition Exhibit No. 44 18 was marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Showing you Exhibit No. 44, which 21 is a document written by the Associated Press 22 political writer on March 27, 1998, Ron 760 1 Fournier, and turning your attention to the 2 second page of that document, under Exhibit 3 No. 4, "Mrs. Clinton fought to release 4 Kathleen Willey's letters to the media. Many 5 aides opposed the idea, either out of fear 6 that it would backfire or out of desire to 7 keep the notes as an ace in the hole for when 8 the controversy worsened. Mrs. Clinton 9 didn't think it could get any worse with 10 Mrs. Willey about to appear on CBS' 60 11 Minutes to accuse the president of making a 12 sexual advance. An aide close to 13 Mrs. Clinton, also speaking on condition of 14 anonymity, said the First Lady didn't prevail 15 at first but then, 'worked through back 16 channels to get the word out to the press 17 that there were Willey letters.' That left 18 The White House with no other choice. 19 Clinton lawyers released the letter the day 20 after the 60 Minutes interview, a move that 21 undermined Mrs. Willey's credibility." 22 Do you know anything about what I 761 1 just read to you? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 3 vagueness and the compound nature of the 4 question. 5 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge 6 of what Mrs. Clinton did or did not do. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you or anyone in your office 9 communicate with Mrs. Clinton or anyone in 10 her office to advise them that your office 11 had found Kathleen Willey's correspondence to 12 and from the President? 13 A I believe what you have seen, 14 Mr. Klayman, indicates that we provided that 15 to the Counsel's Office. 16 Q Do you know whether the Counsel's 17 Office then communicated that to Mrs. Clinton 18 and/or her office? 19 A No, sir, I do not. 20 Q Do you know who the source is that 21 said to Mr. Fournier, "an aide close to 22 Mrs. Clinton also speaking of condition of 762 1 anonymity said the First Lady didn't prevail 2 at first, but then, 'worked through back 3 channels to get the word out to the press 4 that there were Willey letters,'"? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Have you heard any discussion at 7 The White House as to who that anonymous 8 source is? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Do you know of anyone who would 11 have that information? 12 A No, sir, I don't. 13 Q Again, Mr. Good, did you receive 14 any communication from either Mrs. Clinton or 15 her office with regard to Kathleen Willey, 16 you meaning you and your office, office of 17 records management? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You don't know one way or the 22 other? 763 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I do not remember it. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q But you can't rule it out? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Correct? 9 A No, I cannot rule it out. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to go into 11 a confidential sealed portion of the 12 transcript, ask that you prepare a separate 13 transcript confidential under seal and go to 14 another tape. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: What time do you 16 have, Mr. Holley? 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 6:32. We're 18 going off video record at 6:32. 19 (Discussion off the record) 20 21 22 777 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 2 video record at 6:53. 3 (The reporter read the record as 4 requested.) 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I have recalled the 7 name of the individual who was responsible 8 for sending the records, the WHODB records as 9 I knew them. The young man's name was Eric 10 Vaden. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Have you talked to him about what 13 records of WHODB were in your office? 14 A He has left the staff quite some 15 time ago. 16 Q Do you know where he is now? 17 A No, sir, I do not. 18 Q Have you yourself sought to 19 ascertain which WHODB records were in the 20 custody, possession, and control of records 21 management? Have you tried to find out what 22 records ORM has from WHODB? 778 1 A I did one search to see what would 2 pop up on our computer. 3 Q What popped up? 4 A We had something like about 20 5 hits, which means that within our computer 6 database there were somewhere in the 7 neighborhood of 20 cases that had those 8 words, those letters, W-H-O-D-B, in them. 9 That doesn't necessarily mean there 10 was anything more than a passing reference to 11 one file folder. On the other hand, with 12 Eric Vaden's files, there were a number of 13 boxes that came to us from him. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Time, Mr. Holley? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you seek to ascertain -- 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Time, Mr. Holley? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm in the middle of 19 a question here. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: No. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: You're going to cut 22 me off here? 779 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Time, Mr. Holley? 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 6:54. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Your time -- 4 MR. KLAYMAN: You're going to cut 5 me off, Mr. Gilligan? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: One last question, 7 Mr. Klayman. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not agreeing to 9 one last question but my question was and I 10 asked it before -- 11 MR. GILLIGAN: I will cut you off 12 after this question. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked it three 14 times. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q I asked it three times. Did you 17 yourself find out specifically what those 18 WHODB documents were about? 19 A No, sir. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: The six hours is 21 completed. We will be moving the court for 22 additional time to complete our testimony. 780 1 We have not completed it. We need additional 2 time, and we will be moving the court to that 3 effect. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I can't wait to see 5 that motion. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I assume that you 7 will oppose it. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: When you have a 9 motion ready, Mr. Klayman, give me a call 10 under local rule 108, and we'll talk about 11 it. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd be happy to. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: I need five minutes 14 and then I'll probably have some 15 cross-examination. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 17 video record at 6:55. 18 (Recess) 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 20 video record at 7:05. 21 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS 22 FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION AND 781 1 EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q Mr. Good, can I direct your 4 attention please to Exhibit No. 4 to this 5 deposition? Do you have that? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Before you ask your 7 questions, Mr. Gilligan, give us a chance to 8 find it. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: I'd be happy to. 10 Does everybody have it? 11 MR. FITTON: We don't have it over 12 here. Was it used before? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: He's got the 14 originals. 15 THE WITNESS: If you don't have 16 one, here. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Everybody has it? 18 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 19 Q Mr. Good, this is the sign-in form 20 for Room 563 we talked about earlier in the 21 deposition, correct? 22 A That is correct. 782 1 Q It covers the time period 2 January 19, 1993 to June 16, 1993; is that 3 correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q During this time period, had the 6 Office of Records Management received any 7 files from the Office of Personnel Security? 8 A It is my understanding that those 9 files came to us much later than June of '93, 10 and the records would show that. 11 Q Which files are those, Mr. Good? 12 A Personnel security files. 13 Q From the Office of Personnel 14 Security? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Thank you. Let me ask you this, 17 Mr. Good. Suppose that an individual in The 18 White House staff requested a single file 19 folder of documents that was in a larger box 20 of documents in records management. If that 21 single file were provided to the individual, 22 what form of record would be made of that 783 1 fact? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound. 3 It had about six parts to it. It's leading, 4 hypothetical, vague and ambiguous. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q What is the standard practice under 7 those circumstances? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 9 THE WITNESS: The staff member were 10 to ask only a file folder from the box that 11 that individual had sent to us, we would pull 12 that folder and we would write somewhere, 13 generally on the back of the folder, the 14 date, the name of the person that was 15 receiving that box, our initials, and also 16 the number of that box so whenever that file 17 folder came back we would know where to 18 refile it. 19 In the place of that file folder 20 would be one of those pink charge out cards 21 that would indicate on there the date of this 22 removal, the name of the file folder, the 784 1 name of the person to whom it was being sent 2 and the initial of the records management 3 person who was pulling that file. 4 Q Can I direct your attention now 5 please to Exhibit No. 41? Would everybody 6 concerned please turn to the page Bates 7 stamped 25001? 8 Up at the top it says Search Query, 9 K-a-t-h-l $ and Willey, and then on the 10 subject line, Mr. Good, it says, "three boxes 11 received in ORM from Presidential personnel," 12 et cetera. Is it fair to glean from that 13 that this query pulled up as document 14 14 of 19, three boxes of documents all related 15 to Kathleen Willey? 16 A No, sir, that is not the correct 17 understanding of what this piece relates to. 18 Q Please tell me what the correct 19 understanding is. 20 A We received three boxes from the 21 Office of Presidential Personnel. You will 22 notice there are quite a few sheets here that 785 1 have been redacted. What you're going to 2 find I think if you were to look at that case 3 is names of individuals who had either sent 4 in resumes or had resumes sent in on their 5 behalf along with the names of people who had 6 recommended or endorsed them. 7 If you go over to the fourth page 8 there Bates stamped 0025004, you will find 9 Kathleen Willey's name halfway down that, 10 three quarters of the way down that page. I 11 would conclude, as I think I mentioned 12 earlier to Mr. Klayman, that that probably is 13 a resume of Kathleen Willey. Although, it 14 could be an indication that she had written 15 in to endorse someone else. 16 I would also note that 025005 I 17 believe somebody failed to redact that 18 material. 19 Q Thank you. I'd like to talk a 20 moment then about, as you discussed with 21 Mr. Klayman, your misunderstanding about how 22 you should answer deposition questions if 786 1 your recollection were less than certain. As 2 I recall, you stated that prior to this 3 litigation nobody informed you that that 4 misunderstanding was an incorrect 5 misunderstanding? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 7 compound, vague and ambiguous. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q Is that your testimony? 10 A I became aware that my 11 understanding that was a misunderstanding 12 during the course of the previous deposition. 13 Mr. Klayman at some point, I believe in the 14 afternoon of the first deposition, but it was 15 the first time that anyone had called that to 16 my attention. 17 Q Prior to that time, do you recall 18 ever having brought your misunderstanding or 19 your understanding to the attention of 20 anybody including prior counsel who 21 represented you? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound 787 1 question, vague and ambiguous, leading. 2 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 3 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 4 Q You do not recall ever bringing 5 that up with any of your prior counsel? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 7 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q If you could please turn to Exhibit 10 No. 9, which is your declaration that you 11 submitted earlier in this case, turning to 12 the last page, what is the date of the 13 declaration? 14 A It's dated August 19, 1998. 15 Q That was over nine months ago, 16 wasn't it, Mr. Good? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Before signing this declaration 19 over nine months ago, did you read it? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 21 answered. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 788 1 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 2 Q Did you understand it? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q Did you believe everything that is 7 stated in this declaration to be true when 8 you signed it? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection and 11 leading. 12 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 13 Q I direct your attention in 14 particular to paragraph 2. It says that in 15 preparation for your deposition last June and 16 July you met several times with Sally Paxton 17 and myself, James Gilligan. Is that 18 statement correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q It says then, "neither on these 21 occasions nor at any other time did either 22 Ms. Paxton or Ms. Gilligan instruct me I 789 1 should answer questions I do not remember or 2 I do not recall if my recollection of the 3 facts were less than certain or sure." 4 Directing your attention specifically to that 5 statement, Mr. Good, did you believe that 6 statement to be true when you signed this 7 declaration? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection, 10 leading. 11 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 12 Q Do you believe that statement to be 13 true now? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Leading. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: I have no further 17 questions. I thank everybody for their 18 patience. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I've got some 20 redirect questions. 21 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 22 PLAINTIFFS 790 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q With regard to Exhibit No. 4, 3 Mr. Good, I believe you previously testified 4 that you could not remember whether or not 5 FBI files or FBI file related information 6 related to Exhibit No. 4, in whole or in 7 part. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, vague. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You can respond. 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Between the time that you testified 13 when I asked you the question and 14 Mr. Gilligan then asked you a question, did 15 your memory become crystal clear in that 16 period? 17 A No, sir, but I would suggest again 18 you have documentation that shows when those 19 records were transferred to us, and the dates 20 would be on that, Mr. Klayman, so I'm quite 21 certain that you will find that those were 22 transferred to us after June of '93. 791 1 Q Showing you what was marked as 2 Exhibit No. 41, page 25005. Do you 3 see 25005? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Did your office call up records on 6 an individual by the name of Houghtzea 7 (phonetic)? 8 A On what occasion? 9 Q On this occasion? 10 A No, sir. The reason this came up 11 is because we searched under the name 12 Kathleen Willey. 13 Q Up comes Houghtzea's name? 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 15 Argumentative. 16 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I'll try 17 again. If you'll go back to that 18 page 025001, you'll see how we pulled up this 19 particular case. We searched K-a-t-h-l $ and 20 Willey. What did that is that brought up 21 that case. 22 In this instance this case was 792 1 three boxes of files, and so what you're 2 going to have are all of these pages, four of 3 which are redacted, that are going to have 4 nothing but names such as you see here on 5 this last page. It's clear from looking at 6 this last page that this was a series of 7 files by name of individual, alphabetically 8 arranged. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Whose files were contained in those 11 boxes as well? 12 A These are coming down from the 13 Office of Presidential Personnel. They are 14 nothing more than resume files that have been 15 created in the Office of Presidential 16 Personnel on people who were either being 17 considered for positions or who were asking 18 to be considered for positions. 19 Q Turning back to page 25004 where it 20 says Kathleen Willey, you don't know for a 21 fact that that's a reference to her resume, 22 do you? 793 1 A No, sir. As I told you, it's 2 either one or the other. It's a reference to 3 her resume or an indication that she was 4 endorsing someone else. The fact that it 5 falls where it does on that page leads me to 6 believe that it's her resume. 7 Q Now, if Kathleen Willey's letters 8 were placed into a file by the Office of 9 Presidential Personnel, this reference may 10 actually refer to the Kathleen Willey 11 letters, correct? 12 MR. HEMMERSBAUGH: Would you 13 clarify what you mean by Kathleen Willey 14 letters, counsel? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q The letters she wrote to the 17 President, suppose those letters were placed 18 by the Office of Presidential Personnel in 19 her personnel file, then in fact this 20 reference here 25004 would refer to those 21 letters, correct? 22 A It's conceivable but had that been 794 1 the case, Mr. Taggart would have searched 2 that file. 3 Q Did you talk to Mr. Taggart whether 4 he searched that file? 5 A No, sir, I didn't. 6 Q So you don't know whether he did or 7 he didn't? 8 A Well, where's his listing, 9 Mr. Klayman? 10 MR. GREEN: We're beyond the scope 11 here. Ask another question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: You're instructing 13 him not to answer that? 14 MR. GREEN: I'm just saying we've 15 indulged you a lot here, and you're beyond 16 the scope. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm getting into what 18 was crossed by Mr. Gilligan. 19 MR. GREEN: No, you're not. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the record 21 speak for itself. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 795 1 Q Can you remember everything that 2 you and your lawyers discussed prior to your 3 June 30, 1998 deposition? 4 A No, sir. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further 6 questions time, subject to my motion to allow 7 for further questioning. 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 9 video record at 7:20. 10 (Whereupon, at 7:20 p.m., the 11 deposition of TERRY W. GOOD was 12 adjourned.) 13 * * * * * 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22