UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA -------------------------x CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : : Plaintiffs : : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : INVESTIGATION et al., : : Defendants. : Afternoon Session -------------------------x Washington, D.C. Thursday, June 3, 1999 Continued deposition of DEBORAH L. GORHAM a witness, called for examination by counsel for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and agreement of counsel, continuing at approximately 1:13 p.m. at the offices of Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., Washington, D.C., before Lynell C.S. Abbott, notary public in and for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf on the respective parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE THOMAS FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 Federal Programs Branch Civil Division 11 United States Department of Justice 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor 12 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-5302 13 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE 16 Office of General Counsel Federal Bureau of Investigation 17 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. Washington, D.C. 20535 18 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE FRANK DiSTEFANO, ESQUIRE 4 Williams & Connolly 725 12th Street N.W. 5 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5175 6 7 On behalf of The White House: 8 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 9 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 10 (202) 456-5079 11 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 12 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE 13 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 51 West 52nd Street 14 New York, New York 10019-6618 (212) 403-1000 15 16 On behalf of Deponent: 17 DAVID E. MILLS, ESQUIRE STEVEN E. WAGNER, ESQUIRE 18 Dow, Lohnes & Albertson 1200 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W., Suite 800 19 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 776-2865 20 21 * * * * * 22 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7 4 Counsel for FBI and EOP 477 5 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: 6 Counsel for Plaintiffs 482 7 * Questions on page 52, line 8; page 131, line 4; page 145, line 2; page 216, line 14; page 219, 8 line 20; page 243, line 8; page 292, line 1 and page 292, line 18 marked per request. 9 GORHAM DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 10 No. 1 - Notice of Deposition 7 11 No. 2 - November 8, 1993, Letter, 11 12 Gorham to Nussbaum 13 No. 3 - November 8, 1993, Letter, 11 Nussbaum to Gorham 14 No. 4 - Notes 11 15 No. 5 - Arkansas Democrat Gazette, 11 16 Article 17 No. 6 - 1993, United States Government 12 Appointment Book 18 No. 7 - Drawing 25 19 No. 8 - Miniscript, Tripp Deposition 307 20 No. 9 - Investigation of Whitewater, 316 21 No. 10 - Diagram 381 22 * * * * * 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of Deborah 4 Gorham taken by counsel for the Plaintiff in 5 the matter of Cara Leslie Alexander v. the 6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al., in 7 the U.S. District Court for the District of 8 Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held in the 9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, 10 Southwest, Washington, D.C. on this date, 11 June 3, 1999 and at the time indicated on the 12 video screen which is 10:07 a.m. 13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm 14 the videographer. The court reporter today 15 is Lynell Abbott from the firm of Beta 16 Reporting. Will counsel now introduce 17 themselves. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 19 General Counsel and Chairman of Judicial 20 Watch. 21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president 22 of Judicial Watch. 6 1 MR. MILLS: David Mills at Dow, 2 Lohnes & Albertson, representing Deborah 3 Gorham. 4 MR. WAGNER: Steven Wagner at Dow, 5 Lohnes & Albertson, representing Deborah 6 Gorham. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro 8 from the Department of Justice, representing 9 the Executive Office of the President and the 10 FBI. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, also 12 with the Department of Justice and also 13 representing EOP and the FBI. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 15 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 16 Lady. With me today to my rear left is Frank 17 DiStefano, a summer associate at Williams & 18 Connolly. 19 MR. MAZUR: I'm Bob Mazur, Wachtell 20 Lipton Rosen & Katz, and I represent Bernard 21 Nussbaum. 22 MS. BENJAMIN: Tracy Benjamin, 7 1 summer associate. 2 MR. PIFER: John Pifer, FBI General 3 Counsel's office. 4 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson, 5 White House Counsel's office. 6 THE WITNESS: Will the court 7 reporter please swear in the witness? 8 Whereupon, 9 DEBORAH L. GORHAM 10 was called as a witness and, having been 11 first duly sworn was examined and testified 12 as follows: 13 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Gorham, I'm going 15 to show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 16 mark as Exhibit 1. 17 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 1 18 was marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Exhibit 1 is Plaintiffs' Notice of 21 Deposition of Deborah Gorham. Attached to it 22 is a subpoena requiring your attendance here 8 1 today on June 3, 1999. Attached to that 2 subpoena is a request for documents which is 3 listed as Exhibit A. Have you seen this 4 document before? 5 A I have. 6 Q When did you see it? 7 A I reviewed it again last night. 8 Q Did you have an opportunity to 9 review the request for documents which is 10 appended to the subpoena? 11 A I did. 12 Q Did you search for the documents 13 that you were asked to bring to this 14 deposition? 15 A I did not have to search for any 16 documents. I had none at home to bring in. 17 Q Do you have documents elsewhere 18 that may be responsive to the subpoena? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 MR. MILLS: I can respond to that. 21 This is David Mills for Deborah Gorham. We 22 do have documents to produce, Mr. Klayman, to 9 1 you today, consisting of a resignation letter 2 by Deborah Gorham, a letter by Bernie 3 Nussbaum to Deborah Gorham accepting the 4 resignation, a printout of about a half a 5 page of some text, and a copy of an article 6 about Vince Foster. 7 In addition, I have a copy of a 8 United States Government Appointment Book 9 from 1993 that mostly contains information 10 personal to Ms. Gorham, but she did keep it 11 while she was at the government in The White 12 House Counsel's suite. 13 We have redacted from that Social 14 Security numbers of individuals who were 15 seeking clearance to The White House. Other 16 than that, there's been nothing redacted. We 17 are producing them to you now. That's all 18 there is that is responsive to the subpoena. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, well, 20 thank you. 21 MR. MILLS: We have copies for 22 other counsel, if you'd like. 10 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, so we have copies 3 for the other counsel as well. 4 MR. MILLS: Yes, sir. I 5 distributed those. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Do we have an extra 7 copy that we can use to mark as an exhibit to 8 this deposition? 9 MR. MILLS: I'm afraid I've 10 distributed all the copies that we have other 11 than our own. 12 MR. MAZUR: I'll yield. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe we can borrow 14 Mr. Mazur's. Thank you. Can we borrow the 15 appointment book, too? 16 I'll make another copy for you at 17 the break. Thank you. Let's just run 18 through this and put it on the record and 19 mark them. 20 The first document that you are 21 producing is a letter on White House 22 stationery from yourself, Deborah Gorham, 11 1 your letter of resignation of November 8th. 2 We'll mark that as Exhibit 2. 3 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 2 4 was marked for identification.) 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Then we'll mark as 6 Exhibit 3 a letter of November 8, 1993 from 7 Bernard Nussbaum accepting your resignation. 8 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 3 9 was marked for identification.) 10 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll mark as 11 Exhibit 4 a document which starts at the top 12 "Service is the rent we pay for living." 13 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 4 14 was marked for identification.) 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 5, an article 16 from the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, 17 purportedly, of July 23, 1993. 18 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 5 19 was marked for identification.) 20 MR. KLAYMAN: United States 21 Government Appointment Book, 1993, we'll make 22 that Exhibit 6. 12 1 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 6 2 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Ms. Gorham, I take it you didn't 5 find any other documents responsive to our 6 subpoena? 7 A I have no other documents. 8 Q Those are all the documents you 9 left The White House with? 10 A That is correct. 11 Q Did you take from The White House 12 during the time you were employed there any 13 documents? 14 A Other than the ones you have? 15 Q Yes. 16 A No, I did not. 17 Q All of these documents were kept by 18 you since the time you left The White House? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q The document which is labeled 21 Exhibit 4, what is that? It just has some 22 kind of statements on it, "Service is the 13 1 rent we pay for living. Service means you 2 get as well as you give." 3 A These are snippets or excerpts from 4 two speeches that Mr. Foster prepared. 5 Q You typed them for him? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q We'll come back to the documents in 8 a bit. Tell me if you would, Ms. Gorham, 9 what your opinion is of Linda Tripp. 10 A Linda is a lady who probably is a 11 person -- Linda is a lady who in life really 12 has very little good to say about anyone. 13 Q How did you come to that 14 conclusion? 15 A By working with her. 16 Q Can you provide some specific 17 examples? 18 A Linda had a very negative attitude 19 about individuals, and was always certainly 20 vocal and verbalized about how she felt about 21 people. 22 Q What specifically did she say about 14 1 people that you and Linda worked with? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q With as much specificity as 5 possible, tell me anything you remember. 6 MR. MILLS: Objection, compound, 7 form. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to 9 move it along. 10 MR. MILLS: The witness can only 11 answer one question at a time, that's all. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Tell me everything you remember 14 that Linda said about people that you worked 15 with at The White House that was negative. 16 A Linda would comment on people 17 regarding their dress, regarding their 18 competency level, regarding their 19 intelligence level. But I cannot remember 20 the specific incidents or nature of the 21 actions. This was her general demeanor. 22 Q Tell me what if anything Linda 15 1 Tripp said about Vince Foster. 2 A I don't recall her saying anything 3 negative about Vince to me. 4 Q Tell me what if anything Linda said 5 about Bernard Nussbaum. 6 A She never said anything negative to 7 me. 8 Q Tell me what if anything Linda 9 Tripp said about William Kennedy. 10 A She never said anything to me. 11 Q Tell me what if anything Linda 12 Tripp said about Betsy Pond. 13 A Linda would comment on her 14 demeanor, her attendance, her skill level. 15 Q Anything else? 16 A Not that I can think of at the 17 moment. 18 Q What did Linda say about her -- 19 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. Did the 20 reporter hear her response? 21 (The reporter read the record as 22 requested.) 16 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What did Linda say about her 3 demeanor? 4 A Linda would always insinuate that 5 Betsy was a very flighty person, using that 6 exact word. 7 Q What else did she say? 8 A That's all that comes to mind right 9 now. 10 Q What if anything did Linda Tripp 11 say about Betsy Pond's attendance? 12 A That she was lacking in reporting 13 to work everyday. 14 Q Did she say anything else about 15 Betsy Pond's attendance? 16 A Not that I recall at the moment. 17 Q Was Betsy Pond late to work 18 frequently? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Based on your observations. 22 A No, I would say not. 17 1 Q You never saw her late even once? 2 A Oh, I'm sure she was late once, but 3 it was not frequent. 4 Q Can you remember her being late 5 more than once? 6 A Possibly, yes. 7 Q How many times? Approximate. 8 A I couldn't render an answer how 9 many times approximate. 10 Q Frequently? 11 A No. 12 Q Did Linda Tripp ever offer an 13 opinion as to why Betsy Pond was late? 14 A No, she didn't. 15 Q Do you have any facts yourself as 16 to why Betsy Pond was late? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A I'm sure that one time probably her 21 car needed repair or perhaps if she was 22 feeling ill. 18 1 Q What if anything did Linda Tripp 2 say about Betsy Pond's skill level? 3 A I don't believe that Linda thought 4 that she had a very high skill level in 5 administrative matters or matters such as 6 typing. 7 Q What specifically did Linda Tripp 8 say? 9 A I don't recall at the moment. 10 Q Did you observe Betsy Pond's skill 11 level? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Do you have an opinion as to her 14 skill level? 15 A I do. 16 Q What is that? 17 A I thought she was very competent. 18 Q Did Linda Tripp have anything else 19 to say about Betsy Pond? 20 A Not that I can recall at the 21 moment. 22 Q Did Linda Tripp ever express any 19 1 opinion or make any statements about William 2 Kennedy? 3 A She did not to me. 4 Q Stephen Waudby? 5 A She did not to me. 6 Q Did she express any opinion about 7 anybody else in The White House Counsel's 8 office? 9 A She did. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q She did not. 14 A She did. 15 Q Who else? 16 A The people that we worked with on 17 staff. 18 Q Such as? 19 A Tom Castleton. 20 Q What was his position at the time? 21 A He was a staff assistant. 22 Q What did Linda Tripp say about him? 20 1 A She would comment in the same form 2 and fashion. 3 Q What do you mean by same? 4 A Regarding his skill level. 5 Q Tell me what she said. Let's just 6 run through it. Skill level. 7 A She would find particular specific 8 times when his work was inaccurate and then 9 she would comment on it. 10 Q What did she comment on? 11 A That it was inaccurate. 12 Q Anything more? 13 A I'm sure she did. 14 Q Who else did she talk about? 15 A There was another young woman who 16 worked as a staff assistant in our office as 17 well. Her name fails me at the moment. 18 Q Do you remember anybody else? 19 A No. 20 Q Is that person's name Cynthia? 21 A No. 22 Q Did she ever comment on Craig 21 1 Livingstone? 2 A Not to me. 3 Q Steven Neuwirth? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What did she say about Steven 6 Neuwirth? 7 A I don't -- she really did not like 8 him. 9 Q Did she say why? 10 A She probably thought that he was 11 abrasive. 12 Q Was he abrasive? 13 A Not to me. 14 Q Did you ever see him being abrasive 15 to anybody else? 16 A I didn't notice. 17 Q Did she ever comment about Anthony 18 Marceca? 19 A Not to me. 20 Q Did Linda Tripp ever comment about 21 Hillary Clinton? 22 A I'm sure she did. 22 1 Q What did she say? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q Bruce Lindsey? 4 A The fact that she knew Bruce for a 5 long time. 6 Q Did she say anything more about 7 Bruce Lindsey? 8 A I'm sure she did, I don't recall. 9 Q Did she ever comment about Cheryl 10 Mills? 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q Marsha Scott? 13 A I don't recall what she said. 14 Q Jane Sherburne? 15 A Not to me. 16 Q President Clinton? 17 A I'm sure she commented about the 18 President. 19 Q What did she say? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Lloyd Cutler? 22 A Not to me. 23 1 Q Abner Mikva? 2 A Not to me. 3 Q Jack Quinn. 4 A Not to me. 5 Q David Watkins? 6 A I'm sure she commented about him. 7 Q What did she say? 8 A I don't recall. 9 Q Harold Ickes? 10 A Not to me. 11 Q Maggie Williams? 12 A Not to me. 13 Q Catherine Cornelius? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Harry Tomasson? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q Joel Klein? 18 A Not to me. 19 Q How long did you work with Linda 20 Tripp? 21 A In direct contact, from 22 approximately the 1st of June until 24 1 September 1st -- September 4. 2 Q 1st of June of '93 to September 1st 3 of '93. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Did you work in close proximity to 6 her during that period of time? 7 A I did. 8 Q Where was that proximity? 9 A In White House Counsel's office. 10 Q You initially worked with her 11 outside of the office of Bernard Nussbaum. 12 Correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Where did you sit in relation to 15 Linda Tripp? 16 A As in distance, is that what you 17 are speaking of? 18 Q There were two desks there? 19 A No, there were four. 20 Q Four desks. 21 A Right. 22 Q Who sat at those four desks? 25 1 A Betsy Pond, myself, Linda Tripp, 2 Tom Castleton. 3 Q How long were the four of you 4 sitting together at those four desks? 5 A Over a period of time? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Approximately four months. 8 Q Can you draw us a diagram, we won't 9 hold you to scale or anything like that, 10 where everybody sat outside of Nussbaum's 11 office? 12 A I could. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll make that the 14 next exhibit, 7. 15 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 7 16 was marked for identification.) 17 MR. FITTON: I'll get you a pen. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want, we can 20 make copies. Would anyone else like copies? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, we would. 26 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a little 2 break and make copies. 3 THE WITNESS: We're going off video 4 record at 10:25. 5 (Recess) 6 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 7 record at 10:28. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Ms. Gorham, looking at this diagram 10 that you drew, about how far away in terms of 11 feet were you from the desk of Linda Tripp? 12 A I would say approximately six feet. 13 Q Now, during that period of time did 14 you work on some matters with Linda Tripp in 15 The White House Counsel's office? 16 A No. 17 Q Were your duties and 18 responsibilities totally separate? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Can you explain what your duties 21 and responsibilities were as opposed to 22 Ms. Tripp's? 27 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I worked for the late 3 Vincent Foster as his secretary. Linda 4 worked as an executive assistant to Bernie 5 Nussbaum, along with Betsy Pond. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q But were there things that 8 Mr. Foster was doing that overlapped with 9 some of the things that Mr. Nussbaum was 10 doing where you as assistants to Mr. Foster 11 and Mr. Nussbaum, respectively, would have to 12 interact? 13 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea 15 what Mr. Nussbaum was working on. I only 16 knew what Mr. Foster was working on. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware Mr. Foster 19 interviewed Ms. Tripp for her job. Correct? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No I'm not aware that 28 1 he did interview her. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q During the period that you worked 4 in this proximity with Ms. Tripp, I take it 5 from time to time during the day you would 6 talk to her across the desk. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q What are some of the things that 9 you'd talk about? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: Certainly just the 12 incidental everyday professional life, 13 "There's a telephone call for you," or "I'm 14 going to lunch." 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you talk about the things you 17 both were working on? 18 A No. 19 Q Never? 20 A I did not. 21 Q Did she? 22 A No. 29 1 Q Would you take incoming phone calls 2 for Mr. Foster? 3 A I did. 4 Q Could other people sitting in that 5 room hear those incoming phone calls? 6 A Could they hear the phones ringing? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Yes. 9 Q If you were taking a message from 10 somebody, could other people overhear that? 11 A If they listened. 12 Q Vice versa, I take it. 13 A I could overhear them if I 14 listened. 15 Q Now, during the time that you 16 worked in this close proximity what were 17 Ms. Pond's and Ms. Castleton's duties and 18 responsibilities during this four-month 19 period? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: That's Mr. Castleton. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 30 1 Q Yes. 2 A Ms. Pond worked for Mr. Nussbaum 3 and provided assistant secretarial support. 4 Mr. Castleton worked with our incoming mail. 5 Q At some point in time you 6 transferred from that office over to the 7 OEOB. Correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q This office was in the West Wing 10 that's described in Exhibit 7. 11 A Yes. 12 Q Then you went to the OEOB. 13 A Yes. 14 Q That coincided, that was after the 15 death of Vince Foster? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Why did you change offices? 18 A Virtually I had no one to work with 19 and no work to do. Mr. Kennedy's detail was 20 returning back to their government agency, 21 and so I offered to help him out. 22 Q After you transferred you then went 31 1 to work for Mr. Kennedy. 2 A No. Actually, I went to work for 3 Cheryl Mills' office for the first month. 4 Q What did you do for Cheryl Mills? 5 A Answered telephones, took phone 6 messages. 7 Q Anything else? 8 A Not that I recall. 9 Q Then what happened after the first 10 month? 11 A I went to work over at 12 Mr. Kennedy's office when his detail ended. 13 Q What did you do for him? 14 A Answered phones, very minimal 15 clerical duties. 16 Q When you went to work for 17 Mr. Kennedy, was anybody working with you in 18 working for Mr. Kennedy? 19 A Do you mean were there other people 20 in the office? 21 Q Yes. 22 A Yes. 32 1 Q Who was there? 2 A Mr. Kennedy, a volunteer that he 3 had. 4 Q Do you remember that volunteer's 5 name? 6 A I believe her last name is Raglund. 7 Q Ragley? 8 A Raglund. 9 Q Raglund? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q What's her first name? 12 A Possibly Jean or Jeannine, I don't 13 rail. 14 Q Do you know where Ms. Raglund is 15 today? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Is she still at The White House? 18 A I have no idea. 19 Q What did Ms. Raglund do for 20 Mr. Kennedy? 21 A Answered telephones. 22 Q Who else was working in that 33 1 office? 2 A Beth Nolan, two young gentlemen who 3 were assistants or legal assistants, another 4 detailed attorney from another government 5 agency. 6 Q Who were the two assistants? 7 A I don't recall their names. 8 Q Do you remember their first names? 9 A Perhaps Edgar. 10 Q Who were the detailees from another 11 agency? 12 A I don't know who they were. 13 Q Anyone else working in that office? 14 A Not that I recall. 15 Q Was Betsy Pond working in the 16 office at the time? 17 A That I was? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No. 20 Q When you moved over to the OEOB, 21 did Linda Tripp sometimes come up to visit 22 with you? 34 1 A No. 2 Q Did she ever come up there to visit 3 with anyone? 4 A I have no idea. 5 Q You never saw her up there? 6 A I don't recall seeing her there. 7 Q Based on your experience working 8 with Ms. Tripp, is it your opinion that she's 9 an honest person or a dishonest person? 10 A I'm sorry. I can't formulate an 11 opinion whether she's honest or dishonest. 12 Q Did she ever say anything to you 13 which you know to be untrue? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What was that? 16 A When she would make statements of 17 someone's competency level. 18 Q Who was she talking about that you 19 understood to be untrue? 20 A Betsy Pond, Tom Castleton. 21 Q So you are saying that her opinion 22 of their competency level was something which 35 1 was false. 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Do you believe that Ms. Tripp is 4 entitled to her opinion? 5 A I do. 6 Q Do you believe that everything that 7 you perceive to be true other people should 8 perceive to be true? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I'm sorry. I don't understand your 15 question. 16 Q What I'm saying is is that you 17 perceive those two people to be competent. 18 Correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q But you will concede that other 21 people can form different opinions. Correct? 22 A Correct. 36 1 Q That doesn't mean that what those 2 other people perceive is false. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Correct? 6 A I'm sorry, I still don't 7 understand. 8 Q Well, let's say suppose I tell you 9 that Mr. Fitton is incompetent and you have a 10 different opinion, that he's competent. Are 11 you telling me that my opinion is false? Is 12 that what you are trying to say with regard 13 to Ms. Tripp? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: Only in your 16 perspective. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q It's a question of perception. 19 Correct? 20 A Exactly. 21 Q But it doesn't mean that someone's 22 perspective is false; it's just simply their 37 1 perspective. Correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q So do you wish to amend your 4 response with regard to Ms. Tripp? 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You don't. 10 A I do not. 11 Q Tell me what it is Ms. Tripp said 12 about Ms. Pond and Mr. Castleton which 13 constitutes something which is false. 14 A She would comment on their 15 competency level and their skill. 16 Q Tell me what it was about their 17 competency level that in your view is false? 18 A They couldn't type, they couldn't 19 answer the phones correctly. 20 Q What specifically about their 21 typing do you consider to be false? 22 A That they could even type. 38 1 Q So Ms. Tripp told you that they 2 could not type at all. 3 A That's correct. 4 Q That they would not even know how 5 to put their hands on a keyboard of a 6 typewriter? 7 A I don't know what her basis was, 8 but they could certainly type. 9 Q Ms. Tripp, you know, was an 10 experienced secretary. Correct? 11 A I don't know that. 12 Q You knew that Ms. Tripp could type? 13 A She could type. 14 Q When she said they couldn't type, 15 did it dawn on you that perhaps she was 16 talking about the speed of their typing? 17 A Absolutely. 18 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 19 That's argumentative. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 21 objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 39 1 Q You can respond. So you took it to 2 mean they couldn't type in terms of their 3 speed. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q How quickly could Ms. Pond type? 6 A I have no idea. 7 Q How were you therefore able to form 8 an opinion that Ms. Tripp was telling a 9 falsehood? 10 A It's just simply my opinion. 11 Q Ms. Tripp's entitled to hers. 12 Correct? 13 A Absolutely. 14 Q That doesn't mean she's telling you 15 a falsehood. Correct? 16 A It's her opinion. 17 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 18 answered. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond? 21 A It's her opinion. 22 Q It doesn't mean she's saying 40 1 something which is false, does it? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A Would you reask the question? 7 Q Because Ms. Tripp has an opinion 8 about the speed of Ms. Pond's typing and you 9 have a different opinion, that doesn't mean 10 that either of you are not telling the truth. 11 Correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q So therefore you have no basis to 14 believe that Ms. Tripp lied to you about 15 Ms. Pond's typing? 16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A I'm sorry. I'm confused. 21 Q If you concede that two people are 22 entitled to an opinion, in this case the 41 1 speed of Ms. Pond's typing, then you have no 2 basis to say that Ms. Tripp's opinion is a 3 falsehood. Correct? 4 A I'm sorry. I'm very confused as to 5 where you're leading this to. 6 Q You just have to answer the 7 questions. You don't have to worry about 8 where I'm leading you. Please answer the 9 question. 10 A I'm sorry, I can't. I'm confused. 11 Q Tell me something else that 12 Ms. Tripp said that was false about Ms. Pond 13 or Mr. Castleton? 14 A I think I've already told you. 15 Q What was that? 16 A Regarding their competency level 17 and skills. 18 Q Tell me specifically what Ms. Tripp 19 said about the competency levels and skills 20 of Ms. Pond and Mr. Castleton? 21 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 22 answered. 42 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Other than typing; we just went 3 over typing. 4 A I cannot remember the specifics at 5 this time. 6 Q You just know it was false. 7 A In my opinion, it was false. 8 Q Tell me why it was false. 9 A It's not how I viewed them. They 10 were typists and they could answer a phone. 11 Q Are you saying that Ms. Tripp is 12 not entitled to her opinion as to their 13 competency? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection, 15 argumentative. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 20 objection, and asked and answered. 21 MR. MILLS: Repetitive. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 43 1 Q You can respond. 2 MR. MILLS: This is antagonistic, 3 Mr. Klayman. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not. It's very 5 straightforward and my tone is quite measured 6 here. 7 MR. MILLS: It's repetitive, and 8 it's asked and answered. That's the basis 9 for my objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Well, it's not asked and answered. 12 I'll ask that you respond. 13 A Could you repeat the question, 14 please? 15 Q Is Ms. Tripp entitled to her 16 opinion about the competency of Ms. Pond and 17 Mr. Castleton? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, she is. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 44 1 Q Are you entitled to your opinion? 2 A Yes. 3 Q You will concede that opinions may 4 differ. Correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Simply because opinions may differ 7 doesn't mean that either you or Ms. Tripp are 8 saying anything that's false. Correct? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 10 argumentative. 11 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So you have no basis to claim that 15 Ms. Tripp's opinion of the competency of 16 Mr. Castleton and Ms. Pond is false. 17 Correct? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: Only in my 20 perspective. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You don't like Linda Tripp very 45 1 much, do you? 2 A I don't dislike her. 3 Q Do you have an opinion about 4 Ms. Tripp's involvement in the recent 5 Lewinsky scandal? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 A What is it that you are saying? 10 Q Have you ever expressed an opinion 11 as to Linda Tripp's involvement in the recent 12 Lewinsky scandal? 13 A I have. 14 Q What was that opinion? 15 A I thought it was unnecessary that 16 she tape Ms. Lewinsky. 17 Q What do you mean by unnecessary? 18 A I thought that it was illegal. 19 Q How did you arrive at that opinion? 20 A Through mental thought. 21 Q Well, what was illegal about it? 22 A I'm sorry, I retract that. I 46 1 didn't think it was illegal. I thought it 2 was unethical. 3 Q What was the basis of your opinion 4 that it was unethical? 5 A She didn't advise the young woman 6 that she was being taped. 7 Q If Ms. Lewinsky was asking 8 Ms. Tripp to commit a crime, in your opinion 9 would she be permitted as a matter of ethics 10 to tape Ms. Lewinsky? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection, form. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form and 13 relevancy. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm 15 confused. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q It's a very simple question. If 18 Ms. Lewinsky was talking to Ms. Tripp and 19 asking Ms. Tripp to commit a crime such as 20 obstructing justice, in your opinion would it 21 be ethical for Ms. Tripp to tape that 22 conversation? 47 1 MR. MILLS: I'm going to object to 2 that question and the characterization that 3 it's a simple question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Also, object to the 7 form as hypothetical. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A I'm sorry. How is this pertinent? 11 Q Please answer my question. 12 A Would you explain it again? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Please read the 14 question back. 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, I'm 18 sorry, I'd have to ponder that. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Why would you have to ponder that? 21 A I would have to think about it. 22 Q Why? 48 1 MR. MILLS: Objection to why she 2 would have to think about it. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Please respond. 5 A I would like to take time to think 6 about that. 7 Q Tell me why you can't give me an 8 answer now. 9 MR. MILLS: Objection. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 11 argumentative. 12 MR. MILLS: This is badgering the 13 witness and argumentative. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not badgering. 15 MR. MILLS: It is badgering. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Please respond. 18 A Like most ethical questions, I'd 19 like to take the time to think about it. 20 Q The reason you want to think about 21 it is because under your concept of ethics 22 you don't think it's right to rat on anybody. 49 1 Correct? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I don't feel that 5 way. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You do believe, however, that it's 8 wrong to broach the confidence of anybody 9 that you work with. Correct? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection, 12 hypothetical, object to the form. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 A I do. 16 Q You believe that it's unethical to 17 broach the confidence under any circumstance. 18 A I don't know that that would apply 19 in all instances. 20 Q What instances would it not apply 21 to? 22 MR. MILLS: Objection, 50 1 hypothetical. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What instances would it not apply 5 to? 6 A I suppose in a matter of a serious 7 crime such as murder. 8 Q Is there a crime of a lesser degree 9 than murder that it would apply to? 10 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 11 objections. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 A I would have to sit and ponder 16 that. 17 Q Suppose it was a crime relating to 18 violating the privacy rights of somebody? 19 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Please respond. 51 1 A I'm sorry, again, the question 2 would be again regarding privacy matters? 3 Q Yeah. Suppose, for instance, that 4 the crime involved was violating the privacy 5 rights of American citizens. Would it be 6 legitimate to broach the confidence of 7 somebody you worked with under those 8 circumstances? 9 MR. MILLS: I object. I don't even 10 understand the question. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Object, hypothetical. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Please respond. 14 A I'm sorry. I really don't 15 understand the question. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, we've gone 17 through this in a lot of different 18 depositions and I'm asking that you not make 19 that kind of an objection. 20 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. What kind 21 of objection? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the 52 1 objection -- she mirrored your response 2 there. Obviously that was a way to give her 3 the answer. 4 MR. MILLS: Not correct. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask you not to do 6 that again. Certify it. 7 MR. MILLS: That's not correct. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.* 9 MR. MILLS: You can certify it. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: This happens 11 routinely throughout these depositions; when 12 there's a question of some note, the attorney 13 sometimes gives the answer to the deponent. 14 I ask that you not do that in this instance. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to the 16 characterization. I don't believe that 17 occurs. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll let the record 19 speak for itself. 20 MR. MILLS: Please. Please 21 continue. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Would you read back 53 1 the question? 2 (The reporter read the record as 3 requested.) 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Please respond. 6 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 7 of the that question. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 9 objection. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I would 11 have to take more time to ponder that. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Suppose somebody you worked with 14 was violating the rights of American citizens 15 to privacy. Would you turn that person in to 16 authorities, to government authorities? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Please respond. 21 MR. MILLS: To form and relevance. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 54 1 Q Please respond. 2 A I don't know. I would have to 3 think about that. 4 Q Have you ever thought about that? 5 A No. I've never had the instance to 6 occur. 7 Q Suppose somebody you worked with in 8 a secretarial capacity or an assistant's 9 capacity had access to the personnel file of 10 someone else you worked with and he shouldn't 11 have had access to that personnel file. 12 Would you turn that person in to Federal 13 authorities? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 MR. MILLS: Objection to form and 16 relevance. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A Are you asking if they reviewed the 20 file, is that all that you are asking? Is 21 that all that you are insinuating? 22 Q Let's say you were a secretary 55 1 working with Mr. Mills at his law firm. 2 Suppose Mr. Mills had a file that he 3 shouldn't have had, that that wasn't part of 4 his duty and responsibility to have in terms 5 of reviewing it, and it contained highly 6 private information. 7 Would you turn Mr. Mills in to 8 government authorities? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 10 relevancy, hypothetical. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 MR. MILLS: All the same 15 objections. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 17 would at least talk with him first about it. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Let's say that Mr. Mills had that 20 file for whatever reason and he shouldn't 21 have had that file and that file contained 22 highly personal and confidential information 56 1 about somebody else. Suppose that 2 information was used against that other 3 person. Would you turn Mr. Mills in? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection to form, 5 relevance. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 7 objections, hypothetical. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Please respond. 10 A I would talk with Mr. Mills first 11 and then with the necessary supervisor. 12 Q Would you turn them in to 13 government authorities? 14 A I don't know. I'd have to think 15 about that. 16 Q Can you cite any other examples to 17 me where Linda Tripp was dishonest? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 THE WITNESS: Dishonest in what 21 way? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 57 1 Q In any way. 2 A Specifically, no, I cannot. 3 Q Do you know of anyone who has 4 information about the honesty or dishonesty 5 of Linda Tripp? 6 A No. 7 Q When you told us earlier this 8 morning that you heard Linda Tripp talking 9 negatively about certain employees, did you 10 hear her directly or did that come through 11 somebody else? 12 A I heard it directly. 13 Q Had you ever heard things from 14 other people about what Linda Tripp was 15 saying? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Who were those other people? 18 A Betsy Pond, of course, a secretary 19 across the hallway. 20 Q Who is the name of the secretary 21 across the hallway? 22 A Her last name was Champagne. 58 1 Q Is she still there? 2 A I have no idea. 3 Q What did Betsy Pond say that Linda 4 Tripp has said? 5 A That she mischaracterized this 6 young woman as incompetent. 7 Q What young woman? 8 A Ms. Champagne. 9 Q Did she say how? 10 A That she was not a secretary. 11 Q You took that to mean she didn't 12 have the skills of a secretary? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Did Ms. Pond say anything else? 15 A I don't recall what else she said. 16 Q Did you ever work with 17 Ms. Champagne? 18 A I did. 19 Q In what capacity? 20 A She was a secretary, as was I. 21 Q What did you do specifically with 22 her? 59 1 A Helped her answer phones. 2 Q So the only thing you did with her 3 was to answer phones. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q You found her to be competent 6 answering phones? 7 A Certainly. 8 Q But that's not the only skill of a 9 secretary. Correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q You have no basis to form an 12 opinion one way or the other with regard to 13 other skills which Ms. Champagne may or may 14 not have had. 15 A No. I did not supervise her. 16 Q Did Betsy Pond say anything else 17 about Ms. Tripp? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Did Ms. Champagne ever say anything 20 about Ms. Tripp? 21 A Not to me. 22 Q Was there anyone else who ever said 60 1 anything about Ms. Tripp? 2 A I'm sure there was. 3 Q Can you remember who they were? 4 A I do not. 5 Q Now, you left The White House on 6 what date? 7 A The third week in November 1993. 8 Q Turning your attention to 9 Exhibit 2, this is your resignation letter. 10 Do you have a copy of that? 11 MR. FITTON: Here you go, 12 Ms. Gorham. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you have a copy of that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q This letter which you prepared and 18 sent to Bernard Nussbaum, did you discuss 19 your resignation with him before leaving? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Did you ever have any discussions 22 at any time with Bernard Nussbaum about the 61 1 reasons that you left? 2 A I'm sure I did. 3 Q When did you have those 4 discussions? 5 A Perhaps when I handed it to him. 6 Q What did you say? 7 A I told him that I'm resigning and 8 accepting a position at a law firm. 9 Q What else did you say to him? 10 A I don't recall. 11 Q What did he say to you? 12 A I don't recall. 13 Q This was a pretty strong moment in 14 your life, wasn't it, when you had to resign? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: Are you inferring 18 that I was forced to resign when you say I 19 had to resign? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I don't know. Were you forced to 22 resign? 62 1 A No. 2 Q I wasn't inferring anything. But 3 you resigned because you couldn't bear to 4 work there any more. Correct? 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: That's incorrect. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What's incorrect about it? 10 A That I could not, quote, "bear to 11 work there." 12 Q What's correct? Tell me the reason 13 why you resigned. 14 A I had no duties at The White House. 15 It was not what I wanted to do any longer. 16 The gentleman that I came to work for had 17 committed suicide. It was time for me to 18 return to what I enjoyed best, and that was 19 working for a law firm. 20 Q Well, the letter says, "It is with 21 great measure of sadness that I offer my 22 resignation this day. I plan to leave The 63 1 White House on Wednesday, November 17 and 2 would like to take a few days off before I 3 return to the private sector at Wilmer, 4 Cutler & Pickering." Had someone offered you 5 a job at Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Who had offered you a job? 8 A The personnel department. 9 Q Lloyd Cutler had helped arrange for 10 you to get that job? 11 A I have no idea. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 13 form. 14 MR. MILLS: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q How did you get the job? 18 A I went through the typical process, 19 send a resume, take a typing test, have an 20 interview. 21 Q Did you know anybody at Wilmer, 22 Cutler & Pickering before you applied? 64 1 A I believe Scarlett Bates, a friend 2 of mine, worked there. 3 Q Did you know anybody else? 4 A No. 5 Q Had you ever met Lloyd Cutler? 6 A Prior to this? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No. 9 Q You then say, "I enjoyed working 10 for you and with your staff these past eight 11 months. I accepted this position in 12 February, in part, out of regard for Vince's 13 sister, Sheila, and my disposition to assist 14 this special neophyte to Washington. 15 But to be able to come to closure 16 with the death of Vince, I must retreat from 17 the constant visual reminder of his lack of 18 presence and return to a career position in a 19 local law firm. I hope we keep in touch 20 through our mutual friends, if not in 21 person." 22 Now, this letter expresses the 65 1 reason you left. Correct? Are you telling 2 me that that wasn't really the reason you 3 left? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: These are simply 7 expressions. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What do you mean by they're simply 10 expressions? 11 A They're expressions that are used 12 in a letter. 13 Q What does that mean? 14 A Sir, what was your original 15 question? 16 Q Well, were you just trying to tell 17 Nussbaum that so you had a graceful way to 18 leave? 19 A Absolutely. 20 Q But you didn't really mean that. 21 A I meant everything I wrote here. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 66 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Well, that's the reason you left, 3 correct? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: What? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You couldn't bear to work in The 8 White House anymore. 9 MR. MILLS: Objection. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form; 11 mischaracterizes. 12 THE WITNESS: I couldn't bear to 13 work in The White House any longer because 14 the person I came to work for was no longer 15 there and I had very little work that I used 16 my skills at. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q It created an emotional reaction 19 that because Vince Foster had died, you had 20 very bad memories of that whole situation and 21 that was one of the reasons why you wanted to 22 move on. Correct? 67 1 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 2 and it's harassing the witness. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A No. I didn't have bad memories. 7 Q You had unpleasant memories. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 10 THE WITNESS: It was unpleasant to 11 think that someone would take their life. 12 Since he was no longer my supervisor, there 13 was no reason for me to continue working 14 there. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What basis do you have to believe 17 that he took his life? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 20 THE WITNESS: I believe that he 21 committed suicide. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 68 1 Q Well, on November 8, 1993 you 2 didn't know one way or the other how he died, 3 did you? 4 A I don't recall. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you believe he committed 8 suicide on November 8, 1993? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 10 objections. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q What caused you to believe that? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I recognized the 17 symptoms of depression in working with him. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q What symptoms were they? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 21 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 22 THE WITNESS: He seemed sad a great 69 1 deal of the time. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Do you know why? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you discuss that with him? 9 A No. 10 Q Was he sad because of the things he 11 was working on at the time? 12 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 13 answered. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can respond. That was not 16 asked and answered. 17 MR. MILLS: It was asked and 18 answered. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, if you 20 want to object, I would ask that you object 21 accurately. But that's not accurate. 22 MR. MILLS: It is accurate, 70 1 Mr. Klayman. You asked the general question 2 and she said she didn't know; and then you 3 asked the specific question which she 4 couldn't have known because she answered the 5 general question. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Please answer the question. 8 A Would you repeat the last question, 9 please. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Read it back. 11 (The reporter read the record as 12 requested.) 13 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what 14 he was sad about. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q He told you he was sad. Right? 17 A He did not tell me that. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q How did you come to that 71 1 conclusion? 2 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 3 THE WITNESS: He did not smile as 4 much as he used to. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you mention to anyone that you 7 were noticing that Mr. Foster was sad and 8 didn't smile as much as he used to? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 10 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 11 Same objections. 12 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you come to believe that the 15 reason he looked sad was because he wasn't 16 enjoying his work? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. This is 18 badgering the witness. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 20 objection. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand 22 how that's badgering. Let's ask the witness 72 1 just to step out for a second. I want to 2 understand these things. 3 MR. MILLS: If you want to have the 4 witness to step out, that's fine -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm seeing very 6 partisan representation here which is getting 7 to the point of absurd. 8 MR. MILLS: I don't understand 9 that. What do you mean partisan 10 representation? You are asking a woman about 11 a person who she worked for who committed 12 suicide. 13 She's obviously going to be 14 emotional about that. It's absolutely 15 irrelevant to any issue that you've raised in 16 this lawsuit and you continually and 17 repeatedly ask these questions. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We're going to have a 19 difficult time here today, Mr. Mills, if this 20 is the way you're going to proceed. The 21 court has asked that we proceed in a very 22 civil way and a direct way. 73 1 The court has instructed counsel 2 not to make speaking objections, not to 3 insert testimony to witnesses. These are 4 simple questions. You very well know the 5 relevancy of these questions. 6 I would ask that we proceed in the 7 spirit of cooperation, not hostility and not 8 accusing me of things that I'm not doing. 9 MR. MILLS: I'm not accusing you of 10 anything you're not doing and I'm not making 11 speaking objections. You engaged me in this 12 discussion. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: This is an important 14 witness. 15 MR. MILLS: I only ask that you let 16 me finish before you speak. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. 18 MR. MILLS: There is nothing 19 improper about my making objections. It's 20 the witness' entitlement to have counsel here 21 and it's my entitlement to make objections. 22 I've made those objections without making 74 1 speaking objections. 2 You have engaged me in a 3 conversation, which is your right, and I'll 4 be happy to answer you. If you don't want to 5 do that, don't ask me any questions. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking you 7 any questions. I'm asking you not to engage 8 in speaking objections. I'm asking you not 9 to insert yourself and make objections which 10 clearly relate to questions that are relevant 11 and you know they're relevant. 12 MR. MILLS: I don't. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking you to 14 proceed in a way that allows justice to be 15 done here. If we can't proceed in that way, 16 then I will respectfully ask for court 17 intervention at the earliest opportunity, 18 because this is an important witness. 19 MR. MILLS: I respect all the 20 things you've said. If you think you need 21 court intervention, that's your right. I 22 assume you know that I have a right to make 75 1 my objections. I don't think I've made any 2 improper objections. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: When you make 4 relevancy objections and insert yourself and 5 accuse me of things that I'm not doing, and 6 I'm trying to be very, very calm. 7 MR. MILLS: That's not right. I 8 didn't accuse you. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Of badgering the 10 witness and harassing the witness on a 11 clearly relevant question. That creates 12 unnecessary tension, it creates unnecessary 13 incivility, and I ask that we not proceed in 14 that way. 15 MR. MILLS: I believe that you have 16 been harassing the witness. Harassment is 17 one of the specific grounds for objection. 18 I'm entitled to object based on harassment, 19 and that's what I did. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You may not like the 21 questions that I ask that, but that doesn't 22 mean I'm harassing the witness. 76 1 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, I'm not 2 objecting to the questions I don't like. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a 4 two-minute break. Maybe we can all think 5 about exactly where we're going here. 6 MR. MILLS: I have no need to take 7 a two-minute break. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I am taking a 9 two-minute break. 10 MR. MILLS: We'll be waiting right 11 here for you in two minutes. 12 THE WITNESS: We're going off video 13 record at 11:03. 14 (Recess) 15 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 16 record at 11:07. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Read back the last 18 question. 19 (The reporter read the record as 20 requested.) 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 22 relevancy. 77 1 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 2 THE WITNESS: He did not convey to 3 me whether he enjoyed his work or not. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Were there matters that he was 6 working on that you knew of that in your 7 opinion could have caused him to look sad? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I do not know 10 what matters that he worked on that could 11 have caused him to be sad. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q During the time that you worked for 14 Vince Foster you were aware that Hillary 15 Clinton visited his office from time to time. 16 Correct? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: From time to time? 19 What does that mean? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You don't know what "time to time" 22 means? 78 1 A Would you explain it to me, please? 2 Q "From time to time" means? 3 Sometimes. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q "Time to time" equals "sometimes." 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I saw Mrs. Clinton 9 visit our offices. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You saw her visit more than once? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: Possibly twice. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q More than twice? 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q You took calls from Mrs. Clinton 18 for Mr. Foster. Correct? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 21 THE WITNESS: I might have. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 79 1 Q You don't remember anything about 2 taking calls? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: No, I do remember 7 about taking calls but I do not recall how 8 many times Mrs. Clinton called. But they 9 were not frequent. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q So therefore you wish to amend your 12 answer that you may have; you now concede 13 that you actually took calls from 14 Mrs. Clinton? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, harassing. 19 MR. MILLS: Agree, it's harassing. 20 THE WITNESS: I might have taken 21 one or two calls. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 80 1 Q In the entire time you worked for 2 Mr. Foster? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: To the best of my 5 memory, they were very infrequent. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You know that Mrs. Clinton came in 8 on at least two occasions to see Mr. Foster. 9 Why did Mrs. Clinton come to see Mr. Foster? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who 14 she came in to see. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you know why Mrs. Clinton was 17 coming to see Mr. Foster? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 20 THE WITNESS: If she saw 21 Mr. Foster, I would not know. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 81 1 Q Why not? 2 A I didn't ask. 3 Q If she saw Mr. Foster you wouldn't 4 know, you said? 5 A That's correct. What she came to 6 see him about, if she did. 7 Q But you knew she was seeing him? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who 10 she visited. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But you knew she was down there in 13 the office. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I certainly saw her. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You saw her go into Mr. Foster's 18 office? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I do not remember who 21 she came in to visit with. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 82 1 Q Did you see Mrs. Clinton go into 2 Mr. Foster's office or not? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. MILLS: Objection. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Same. 6 THE WITNESS: I do not remember. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you ever tell Linda Tripp why 9 Mrs. Clinton was visiting Mr. Foster? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you ever tell anyone why 16 Mrs. Clinton was visiting Mr. Foster? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever tell anyone whether 83 1 Mr. Foster was working on matters concerning 2 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 3 A I believe once I told Linda Tripp 4 that I was helping Mr. Foster with their tax 5 return. 6 Q Anything else? 7 A No. 8 Q When did you tell Linda Tripp that? 9 A Perhaps sometime in very early 10 April. 11 Q April of '93. 12 A I'm sorry. I do not know that I 13 told Linda Tripp that. Perhaps I said that 14 to Betsy. 15 Q What were you helping Mr. Foster 16 with with regard to Mrs. Clinton's tax 17 returns? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Hold on. I've got to 21 confer with the counsel's witness before we 22 go any further with this. 84 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You're conferring 2 with who? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Counsel's witness. I 4 mean the witness' counsel. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Would you read the 8 question back, please. 9 (The reporter read the record as 10 requested.) 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Let me speak to 12 Mr. Mills again. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Do you 14 mind having the question repeated? 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to relevancy. 18 THE WITNESS: Photocopying them. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What was Mr. Foster doing with 21 regard to Mrs. Clinton's taxes? 22 MR. MILLS: Objection. 85 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know what he 4 was doing with them. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you ever discuss with 7 Mr. Foster whether it was legal for him as a 8 government lawyer to be working on the 9 Clintons' taxes? 10 MR. MILLS: Objection. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 12 relevancy. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you yourself ever think about 16 that issue? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 18 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You were aware that Mr. Foster's 22 salary was being paid for by the U.S. 86 1 taxpayers. Correct? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I assumed he received 5 a check from the Federal Government, as I 6 did. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Were you aware of the Clintons 9 paying Mr. Foster any money for services. 10 A No. 11 Q So you didn't think it was improper 12 for Mr. Foster to be spending his time paid 13 for by taxpayers working on the Clintons' 14 taxes? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 17 THE WITNESS: I did not think about 18 it. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you thought about it since? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you have an opinion today as to 87 1 whether that's proper or not? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I'm telling you based upon the 6 facts that you just told me that Mr. Foster 7 was working on the Clintons' taxes, you 8 concede that Mr. Foster was paid, his salary 9 was paid for by U.S. taxpayers, do you have 10 an opinion today as to whether that's proper? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection to that 12 question. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy, 14 argumentative. 15 THE WITNESS: No, I do not. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q That's illegal, isn't it? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 20 answered, harassment. 21 THE WITNESS: I do not know. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 88 1 Q You don't care. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Correct? 7 A I would have to think about that. 8 Q Was there anything else that 9 Mr. Foster was working on that you mentioned 10 to anybody? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 12 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Or knew about. Excuse me? 15 A Not that I recall. 16 Q I think you answered that. Did you 17 ever see Mrs. Clinton in Mr. Foster's office? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 THE WITNESS: Not that I remember. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever see the two of them 89 1 talking in person? 2 A Not that I remember. 3 Q Are you aware of them having had 4 any meetings? 5 A I cannot recall a meeting they had 6 together. 7 Q At the time you worked in The White 8 House you were a notary public. Correct? 9 A That's incorrect. 10 Q Have you ever been a notary public? 11 A I have. 12 Q When were you a notary public? 13 A Are you asking when my commission 14 started? 15 Q Yes. 16 A In October. 17 Q October of what? 18 A Of 1993. 19 Q Are you a notary public under the 20 laws of the District of Columbia? 21 A I am. 22 Q Are you a notary public under the 90 1 laws of any other state or jurisdiction? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you ever notarize anything for 4 Mrs. Clinton? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever notarize anything for 7 anyone in The White House? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Same. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall 11 that I did. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Why did you become a notary public? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Was Mr. Foster a notary public? 19 A I have no idea. 20 Q Do you know whether or not 21 Mr. Foster notarized anything for 22 Mrs. Clinton? 91 1 A I have no idea. 2 Q Do you know whether anybody else 3 did? 4 A Did what? 5 Q Notarize anything for Mrs. Clinton. 6 A I would have no idea. 7 Q When you say "I don't remember" or 8 "I don't recall," what does that mean? 9 A In what instance? 10 Q Does it mean that you have 11 absolutely no memory or you don't have 12 perfect memory? 13 A In what instance? 14 Q In any instance. 15 A I'm sorry. You would have to be 16 specific. 17 Q Well, let's use the word "I don't 18 recall." Those are your phrases. You've 19 used that a number of times today. When you 20 say "I don't recall," does that mean you 21 recall nothing? 22 A That's correct, I do not recall 92 1 anything about that particular situation that 2 you are asking about. 3 Q So you wouldn't have any 4 recollection at all. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q When you say the word "I don't 7 remember," do you mean the same thing as "I 8 don't recall"? 9 A It depends upon the question. 10 Q So if you say "I don't remember," 11 you may have some memory but not sufficient 12 enough for you to testify to? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: I think it would 15 depend upon the question that you ask me. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Can you explain what you mean by 18 that? 19 A Perhaps I should use "I don't 20 recall" in instances that I have no memory of 21 and "I don't remember," it would be for a 22 specific incident that I do not remember that 93 1 event taking place, different than "I don't 2 recall." 3 Q What I'm trying to gauge is when 4 you say "I don't remember," you have some 5 memory but it's not a great memory. Is that 6 what you mean? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 9 THE WITNESS: With regard to? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q A particular matter where you've 12 testified "I don't remember." 13 A Can you pick a specific question? 14 Q I can't because I wasn't aware that 15 you were making the distinction. What I'm 16 trying to gauge when you say "I don't 17 remember" does that just mean you don't 18 have 80 percent memory or you don't have 90 19 percent? Is there some kind of grade here of 20 levels of memory upon which you would testify 21 to if you exceeded that threshold below which 22 you would not testify if you didn't? 94 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q That's what I'm trying to 5 understand. 6 A I understand that you are. 7 Q So tell me what your rule of thumb 8 is on that "I don't remember." 9 A I would have to review the 10 questions, but perhaps what I mean is that in 11 both situations "I don't recall" and "I don't 12 remember" mean the same thing. 13 Q So it means you have zero memory? 14 A I'll try to be more specific in the 15 future. 16 Q No. But that's what you meant when 17 you say "I don't remember," "I don't recall," 18 "I have zero memory"? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 95 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Nothing, not even a shred? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's 4 harassment. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Have you ever testified before 9 under oath? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Where have you testified under oath 12 before? 13 A At the Senate committee and 14 Independent Counsel's office. 15 Q The Senate committee that 16 investigated the death of Vince Foster? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Did they investigate anything else? 19 A I'd have to review the front cover 20 of my transcripts. Whitewater, I believe. 21 Q That was Senator D'Amato's 22 committee? 96 1 A Yes. 2 Q Who asked you the questions at 3 those depositions, do you remember? At that 4 testimony, rather. 5 A I believe it was their Judiciary 6 counsel. 7 Q Did you testify before a Grand Jury 8 before the Independent Counsel? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When did you testify there? 11 A I believe it was approximately 12 August of '95. 13 Q What were the subject matter of 14 your testimony? What did they ask you about? 15 Just generically. 16 A The days preceding Mr. Foster's 17 death and the days after his death. 18 Q Is that it? 19 A I believe they might have asked me 20 if I had knowledge of files in his office. 21 But at this time I can't remember what else 22 they asked. 97 1 Q Did they specifically ever ask you 2 questions about a controversy that has become 3 known as Filegate? 4 A I don't remember that they asked me 5 that, no. 6 Q Has anyone ever asked you questions 7 before today about that controversy? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection to the extent 9 it asks for privileged communications. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 11 of the question. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Other than your counsel. 14 A Regarding -- 15 Q A controversy which has become 16 known as Filegate. You know what I'm talking 17 about, right? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 20 of the question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 98 1 A No. 2 Q You are aware of a controversy 3 about 900 or so FBI files that went from the 4 FBI to The White House that has become known 5 as Filegate? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Has anyone ever asked you questions 10 about that before today other than your 11 counsel? 12 A About the matter of Filegate. 13 Q Yes. 14 A No. 15 Q From the date that you left The 16 White House up to today, have you talked with 17 any of the people that you worked with? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A That I worked with? 99 1 Q At The White House. 2 A Since the day I left The White 3 House. 4 Q Yes, up to today. 5 A Yes, I have talked with someone, 6 yes. 7 Q Who have you talked to? 8 A I spoke with Pam Barnett once. 9 Q Who is Pam Barnett? 10 A She was secretary to the First 11 Lady. 12 Q Is she still at The White House? 13 A I have no idea. 14 Q When did you talk to her? 15 A Approximately 1995. 16 Q Did you talk to her more than once? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you correspond with her in 19 writing? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you make notes of your 22 conversation? 100 1 A No. 2 Q Did you record it? 3 A No. 4 Q Who called who, you called 5 Ms. Barnett or did she call you? 6 A I called Ms. Barnett. 7 Q Where were you when you made the 8 call? 9 A At my office. 10 Q Where was that? 11 A At 1200 New Hampshire Avenue. 12 Q Is that a law firm? 13 A It is. 14 Q What law firm is that? 15 A Dow, Lohnes & Albertson. 16 Q Who were you working for at Dow, 17 Lohnes & Albertson at the time? 18 A Kevin Reed. 19 Q Do you still work for him? 20 A I do. 21 Q Mr. Reed's a partner? 22 A He is. 101 1 Q Did Mr. Reed know that you were 2 calling Pam Barnett at The White House? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 4 THE WITNESS: I do not know if he 5 knew. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Why did you call Pam Barnett? 8 A I had asked Pam if the First Lady 9 was going to be in Athens at the same time my 10 daughter was. 11 Q The same time as your daughter? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Why did you ask her that? 14 A Because my daughter was visiting 15 Athens and so was the First Lady, and I 16 thought perhaps if the First Lady was giving 17 any type of a speech that my daughter could 18 be in attendance. 19 Q How did you know Pam Barnett? 20 A I worked next-door to her. 21 Q You would frequently interact with 22 her when you worked at The White House? 102 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You had contact with her when you 5 worked at The White House? 6 A I would say good morning to her, 7 good afternoon, how are you. 8 Q You would actually sometimes 9 deliver things to her to give to 10 Mrs. Clinton. Right? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if I 15 did or did not. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You may have. 18 A I may have, yes. 19 Q Ms. Barnett would sometimes deliver 20 things to you to give to Mr. Foster. 21 Correct? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 103 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall her 3 ever giving anything to me to deliver to him. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q During the time you worked at The 6 White House did you ever go out socially with 7 Ms. Barnett? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you ever go to lunch with her? 10 A No. 11 Q Have a drink with her after work? 12 A No. 13 Q Did you ever discuss with 14 Ms. Barnett what she did for the First Lady 15 when you worked at The White House? 16 A No. 17 Q You had met the First Lady before 18 this call with Pam Barnett in 1995. Correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q When did you meet her? 21 A In 1993. 22 Q What were the circumstances of 104 1 that? 2 A She walked into our offices and 3 remarked about the stain glass. 4 Q What offices were they? 5 A In the office I was located. 6 Q What, there was stain glass in 7 there? 8 A There was a piece of stain glass in 9 the window, yes. 10 Q Did you meet her on another 11 occasion? Let me back up to that. Was 12 anyone else there when she remarked about the 13 stain glass? 14 A I couldn't tell you today who was 15 standing there or sitting there at the time. 16 Q Vince Foster was there. Right? 17 A I don't remember who was there. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you meet her again? 21 A As in introduce or speak to her 22 personally? 105 1 Q Any contact with her at any time. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I had a visual 4 contact of her when she walked by our 5 offices. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q But you never saw her beyond that? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q The only time you ever saw her 11 again was when she walked by your offices? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 14 THE WITNESS: That I can remember, 15 yes. That was the only visual contact after 16 that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you ever have any other kind of 19 contact with her after that? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No. 106 1 Q Did Ms. Barnett get you a ticket so 2 your daughter could go to an event with 3 Hillary Clinton in Greece? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Or did she arrange to have your 8 daughter present when Hillary Clinton 9 conducted some events in Greece? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Barnett 16 anything else other than your daughter? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you have any contact with 19 anyone else at The White House since the time 20 you've left? 21 A Anyone from The White House? 22 Q Mmm-hmm. 107 1 A I called Bernard, Mr. Nussbaum's 2 office. 3 Q Where was Mr. Nussbaum at the time? 4 A At his law firm in New York. 5 Q When did you call him? 6 A Approximately 8/97. 7 Q In August of '97? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Where were you working? 10 A At the law firm I'm presently with. 11 Q Why did you call Mr. Nussbaum? 12 A I asked him if I could list his 13 name as a professional reference on my 14 resume. 15 Q You were at that time thinking of 16 leaving Dow, Lohnes? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q What did Mr. Nussbaum say? 19 A He said that I could. 20 Q Is there a record of your call to 21 Mr. Nussbaum? 22 A Not that I'm aware of, no. 108 1 Q Well, the law firm billing records 2 would have that, or law firm telephone 3 records would have that record, wouldn't it? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea 7 how they keep records. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Do you know who paid for that call? 10 A I would use my own code which is my 11 own private number to use it. 12 Q On your own extension. 13 A That's correct. 14 Q What's your extension? 15 A 2694. 16 Q What's the first prefix of the -- 17 A 776. 18 Q 776. Did you subsequently get a 19 job somewhere else? 20 A No, I did not. 21 Q You decided to stay. 22 A I did. 109 1 Q Did you discuss anything else with 2 Mr. Nussbaum during that call? 3 A No. I don't remember that there 4 were any other matters other than asking him 5 how he was and how his wife was. 6 Q Did you talk to him about your 7 White House experience? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you mention Vince Foster? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you have any contacts since the 12 time you left The White House with anyone 13 else you had worked with or knew or anyone 14 currently at The White House? 15 A No. Those are the only two 16 individuals. 17 Q Since the time you left The White 18 House, did you have any contact with any 19 lawyers at The White House? 20 A Mr. Eggleston, Neil Eggleston 21 visited me when I was at Wilmer & Cutler. 22 Q When were you at Wilmer & Cutler? 110 1 A From November of '93 until January 2 of '94. 3 Q Why did you leave Wilmer Cutler? 4 A I was offered a job to return to my 5 former law firm. 6 Q You didn't like working at Wilmer 7 Cutler? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: No. I did like it. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Then why did you leave? 12 A It was nice to go back to a home 13 that I'd known for so long. 14 Q Mr. Eggleston visited you after you 15 moved to Dow, Lohnes or while you were at 16 Wilmer Cutler? 17 A While I was at Wilmer. 18 Q Did you call Mr. Eggleston and say 19 "I want to meet with you"? 20 A No. 21 Q How did that meeting occur, how did 22 it get set up? 111 1 A He called me and asked if he could 2 meet with me. 3 Q What was your extension when he 4 called you, what was your phone number? 5 A I do not remember my phone number. 6 Q Who were you working for at Wilmer 7 Cutler? 8 A Robert McCormick. 9 Q Is he still there? 10 A I've heard that he is not. 11 Q He's not. 12 A That's correct. 13 Q What did Mr. Eggleston say to you 14 when he called you? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: One moment, please, 17 just to consult with the witness' counsel. 18 (Witness conferred with counsel) 19 MS. SHAPIRO: We'll allow the 20 witness to answer the question on the 21 condition that there's no waiver of any 22 attorney-client privilege. 112 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, just for this 2 question. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: So that's agreeable 4 for this question. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, that's fine. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Would you 7 repeat the question? 8 (The reporter read the record as 9 requested.) 10 THE WITNESS: He asked if I could 11 meet with him. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did he tell you why? 14 A Not at that time, no. 15 Q When you spoke to Mr. Nussbaum did 16 he tell you whether or not you should be 17 talking to people about your experience at 18 The White House because you may be a witness 19 in a legal proceeding, did he ever mention 20 anything like that? 21 MR. MILLS: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: No. 113 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So you met with Mr. Eggleston. Did 3 he tell you during that conversation where he 4 wanted to meet with you? 5 A He asked me where it would be 6 convenient. 7 Q What did you tell him? 8 A He could come to the location where 9 I was working at the time. 10 Q Did he tell you why he wanted to 11 meet with you? 12 A No. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Same condition, that 14 she could answer the question as long as 15 there is no waiver of attorney-client 16 privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Were you alarmed when he called 19 you? 20 A No. 21 Q You didn't find it strange that 22 someone said "I want to meet with you" but 114 1 didn't tell you why? 2 A No. 3 Q You found that normal. 4 A I don't know if it's normal or not. 5 It didn't cause any alarm to me. 6 Q You knew Mr. Eggleston was a White 7 House lawyer. Correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Did you later have that meeting 10 with Mr. Eggleston? 11 A I did. 12 Q Where did that meeting take place? 13 A It took place in a conference room 14 at the law firm I was located in. 15 Q Mr. Eggleston was there? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did he come with anyone else? 18 A No. 19 Q You attended the meeting with him? 20 A Yes. 21 Q When did that meeting occur? 22 A Approximately December of '93. 115 1 Q Was anyone present other than you 2 and Mr. Eggleston in the meeting? 3 A No. 4 Q What did Mr. Eggleston tell you at 5 the meeting? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Before she answers 7 that question, again, the same stipulation, I 8 would ask that she could answer the question 9 so long as there's an agreement that there is 10 no waiver of attorney-client privilege. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 12 THE WITNESS: He asked me if I had 13 taken anything out of Vince's office that 14 belonged to him. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What else did he ask you? 17 A That's all he asked me. 18 Q What did you tell him? 19 A That I had nothing that belonged to 20 Vince. 21 Q Well, did you take anything out of 22 the office, however, that didn't belong to 116 1 Vince? 2 A I took my calendar that you have. 3 Q The one you produced today? 4 A Yes. 5 Q You had left your calendar in 6 Vince's office? 7 A I'm sorry. I'm confused. 8 Q The conversation was about what you 9 had taken out of Vince Foster's office. 10 A He wanted to know what I took out 11 of Vince Foster's office that belonged to 12 Vince, if I had anything. 13 Q Right. You said no. 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Did he want to know whether you 16 took stuff out the day or so after he died or 17 did he want to know whether you'd just taken 18 stuff out of The White House, period, when 19 you left? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know what I'm saying? 117 1 A He wanted to know if I had any of 2 Vince's personal articles. 3 Q With you outside of The White 4 House. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q But you had taken some documents 7 out of Vince Foster's office when you worked 8 at The White House, you just hadn't removed 9 them from The White House? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 13 THE WITNESS: I did not take any 14 articles out of Vince Foster's office. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you take anything out of Vince 17 Foster's office after he died? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Do you know of anyone who entered 22 Vince Foster's office after he died? 118 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Who? 5 A The Park Police, myself. 6 Q Anyone else? 7 A Ms. Williams, Mr. Nussbaum. 8 Q Anyone else? 9 A Mr. Neuwirth. 10 Q Anyone else? 11 A I don't remember any others at the 12 time. 13 Q Do you have any information from 14 any source as to whether those persons took 15 documents or other things out of Mr. Foster's 16 office after he died? 17 A We packed up two boxes of 18 Mr. Foster's personal items that were taken 19 out of his office. 20 Q Who is "we"? 21 A Myself and Mr. Castleton helped me 22 remove the boxes. 119 1 Q When did that happen? 2 A Sometime after his death. 3 Q Did someone direct you to do that? 4 A I don't recall. Someone did, but I 5 don't recall who asked for them. I don't 6 know if it was the family. 7 Q Was anyone aware that you and 8 Mr. Castleton were packing up things in 9 Mr. Foster's office after he died other than 10 Mr. Castleton and you? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I believe 13 Mr. Nussbaum would know. I would have told 14 him I was packing up these items. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What did you tell Mr. Nussbaum? 17 A I'm sure that I probably told him I 18 was packing up Mr. Foster's personal items. 19 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum say anything to 20 you about that? 21 A I don't remember what he would have 22 said. 120 1 Q Did he tell you anything to the 2 effect "That's not for you to do, that's for 3 government investigators"? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: No. Otherwise, he 6 probably would have. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What specifically did you pack up 9 with Mr. Castleton? 10 A I didn't pack it up with 11 Mr. Castleton. I packed them. He carried 12 the boxes out. 13 Q You were there by yourself. 14 A I believe I was. 15 Q What did you pack up? 16 A Candlesticks, photographs, Tic 17 Tacs. 18 Q Anything else? 19 A At the moment I can't remember what 20 else there was. 21 Q At the time that you packed up 22 these personal effects, all other things had 121 1 been removed from Vince Foster's office. 2 Correct? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know what had 6 been removed from his office. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q At the time that you packed up 9 these Tic Tacs and photographs and what 10 you've just described, there were no 11 documents in Mr. Foster's office. Correct? 12 A I don't remember if there were 13 documents or not. 14 Q So as far as you know, there were 15 no documents at that time? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: No. I only packed up 19 his personal items. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever tell Linda Tripp that 22 you were aware that documents were removed 122 1 from Vince Foster's safe after he died? 2 A No, I never told her that. 3 Q Have you ever told that to anyone? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you ever tell to anyone that 6 documents removed from Vince Foster's safe 7 were taken to The White House residence after 8 Vince Foster died? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you inferring 11 Vince Foster had a safe or are you talking 12 about the safe located in Mr. Nussbaum's 13 office? 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Let's talk about that one. 16 A Your question was again, please? 17 Q Did you ever tell anyone after 18 Vince Foster died that documents and things 19 from that safe were taken to The White House 20 residence? 21 A No, I never told anyone that. 22 Q Are you aware of whether or not 123 1 that happened? 2 A No, I'm not aware. 3 Q Are you aware of whether or not any 4 documents or things that were in Vince 5 Foster's office before he died were taken to 6 The White House residence after he died? 7 A I have no knowledge of that. 8 Q Did you ever tell anyone that? 9 A No, I did not. 10 Q Do you have a copy of the Grand 11 Jury testimony that you provided to the 12 Independent Counsel? 13 A Not with me. 14 Q Does your lawyer have a copy of 15 that? 16 A I'm sure he does. 17 Q Do you have a copy of your Senate 18 testimony? 19 A I do. 20 Q Who has possession of that? 21 A I have a copy and my attorney has a 22 copy. 124 1 Q Is the attorney you're referring to 2 the one sitting next to you today? 3 A Mr. Mills, yes. 4 Q Mr. Mills. What else did 5 Mr. Eggleston say to you during that meeting? 6 A That's all he said. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Same stipulation, 8 please. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q That's it? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Did you have any contact with 13 Mr. Eggleston after that? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you have any contact with 16 anyone from The White House Counsel's office 17 after that? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you have any contact with 20 anyone who had worked at The White House or 21 was working at The White House from the point 22 you left The White House up to today? 125 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Have you had any contact with 5 anyone on behalf of The White House or behalf 6 of the Clinton Administration since the time 7 you left? 8 A Mr. Eggleston. 9 Q That's it? 10 A I believe I met with another 11 counsel sometime in 1994. 12 Q Who was that? 13 A I believe her name was Miriam 14 Nimitz. 15 Q Where did she come from? 16 A White House Counsel's office. 17 Q Where were you working at the time? 18 A At Dow, Lohnes & Albertson. 19 Q Who were you working for at Dow, 20 Lohnes? 21 A Kevin Reed. 22 Q Who contacted who? Did you contact 126 1 Miriam Nimitz or did she contact you? 2 A I did not contact Ms. Nimitz. 3 Q Did she call you? 4 A I don't recall if she called me or 5 my attorney. 6 Q Who was your attorney at the time? 7 A Mr. Mills. 8 Q How long has Mr. Mills been your 9 attorney? 10 A Since April of 1994. 11 Q April of '94? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Have you yourself paid for 14 Mr. Mills' services since April of 1994? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 A I haven't received an invoice yet. 17 Q Do you know who is paying your 18 legal fees, if anyone? 19 A I don't know of anyone paying my 20 legal fees. 21 Q Do you know why you haven't been 22 invoiced? 127 1 A No, I don't. I certainly offered 2 to pay for the expenses of my representation. 3 Q Has Mr. Mills appeared with you in 4 other legal proceedings? 5 A He has. 6 Q What other legal proceedings? 7 A The Senate committee, the 8 deposition, testifying before the committee, 9 Independent Counsel, the meeting with the 10 FBI. 11 Q With regard to what matter? 12 A Whitewater. 13 Q Anything else? 14 A I can't remember all the meetings 15 that we've had. Those are the most 16 significant. 17 Q Has anyone at Dow, Lohnes & 18 Albertson ever told you you are not going to 19 have to pay the legal fees? 20 A No, no one has ever said that to 21 me. 22 Q Is that your understanding? 128 1 A That's not my understanding, no. 2 Q You are an experienced legal 3 secretary. Correct? 4 A I am. 5 Q Based upon your experience as a 6 legal secretary, it is not in the ordinary 7 course to not bill for five years? 8 A I don't know what the ordinary 9 course is. 10 Q Has it been your experience that 11 clients are billed at five-year intervals? 12 A I don't know what the billing 13 practices of my firm are. 14 Q Have you ever asked? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know whether or not someone 17 is paying your legal fees on your behalf? 18 A I do not. 19 Q Have you ever asked? 20 A No. 21 Q Do you know whether or not anyone 22 associated with the Clinton Administration is 129 1 paying your legal fees on your behalf? 2 A No. 3 Q You don't know one way or the 4 other. 5 A I've never been told anyone is 6 paying for my legal fees. 7 Q Do you know whether Mr. Mills 8 represents anyone else who worked at the 9 Clinton Administration or works in the 10 Clinton Administration? 11 A I don't know who he represents. 12 Q Have you ever asked him? 13 A No. 14 Q Have you ever met with Mr. Mills 15 where, other than the instances that you've 16 testified to with regard to the FBI and your 17 appearances in front of Congress, have you 18 ever met with Mr. Mills where other people 19 were present? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection, privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 130 1 MR. MILLS: No, you cannot respond. 2 It's a privilege. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not a privilege; 4 if those people are third parties, then there 5 would be no privilege. 6 MR. MILLS: That wasn't the 7 question. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's my 9 question. 10 MR. MILLS: Are you changing your 11 question? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if that helps 13 you understand it, I'll be happy to. 14 MR. MILLS: It doesn't help me 15 understand it. It's a different question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Well, have you ever met with 18 Mr. Mills where someone who was not a lawyer 19 was also present? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 21 objection. That's privileged. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 131 1 Q Please respond. 2 MR. MILLS: That's privileged. 3 Don't respond to that question. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.* Please 5 explain for the court how you can block her 6 from answering that question. 7 MR. MILLS: Okay, I will. Who 8 we've met with from my office, whether 9 they're a lawyer or not, and whoever is 10 present whether they're a lawyer or not, is 11 still going to be a privileged communication. 12 You didn't ask about anybody who was 13 unrelated to my law firm. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q I think that's a smaller subset 16 than I can ask about, but we'll start with 17 that. Have you ever met with Mr. Mills where 18 someone was present who wasn't from your law 19 firm? 20 A Yes. 21 Q When was that? 22 A At the time I mentioned to you 132 1 regarding Ms. Nimitz. 2 Q Who was present? 3 A Ms. Nimitz and Mr. Mills. 4 Q Anyone else? 5 A Not at that meeting, no. 6 Q Where did that meeting take place? 7 A At our law firm. 8 Q What was discussed? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Before she answers 10 that question, I'm going to need to consult 11 with her counsel. 12 Mr. Klayman, I'll allow the witness 13 to answer the question on the condition that 14 you agree to the same condition, that it's 15 not a waiver of attorney-client privilege. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What was discussed? 19 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat the 20 question? 21 (The reporter read the record as 22 requested.) 133 1 THE WITNESS: During the meeting 2 with Ms. Nimitz and I was asked for my 3 background, how I came to know Mr. Foster and 4 what occurred during the preceding days of 5 his death and afterwards. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What did you say? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Same stipulation? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 10 THE WITNESS: I told Ms. Nimitz how 11 I came to be employed by Mr. Foster and the 12 events that took place the days before his 13 death and the days after. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Tell me everything you told them. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Can we have a 17 continuing stipulation, please? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, sure. 19 THE WITNESS: I told her how I was 20 referred to Mr. Foster by his sister and what 21 occurred the day before, the day of -- the 22 day before Mr. Foster's death and what 134 1 happened on the day he died and what happened 2 in the following days. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever have any subsequent 5 conversations with Ms. Nimitz after that 6 meeting? 7 A I don't remember meeting with her 8 again. 9 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Nimitz the 10 type of work that Vince Foster was doing 11 while he was alive and working at The White 12 House? 13 A No. 14 Q Did she ask you whether you'd seen 15 anything peculiar when you worked with 16 Mr. Foster? 17 A I don't remember if she asked me 18 that question or not. 19 Q Did she ask you whether or not 20 Mr. Foster was working on anything which 21 could have caused him to take his own life? 22 MR. MILLS: Objection. 135 1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember that 2 she asked me that question or not. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did she ask you whether you had an 5 opinion as to whether or not Mr. Foster was 6 murdered? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You can respond. 11 A No, she never asked me a question 12 as such. 13 Q Have you ever formed an opinion on 14 that issue? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 16 answered, relevancy. 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: On whether he was 19 murdered or not? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Yes. 22 A Yes. 136 1 Q How did you form that opinion? 2 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: As I stated to you 5 before, I noticed that he was very sad and I 6 noticed the symptoms. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What do you mean by "the symptoms"? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 10 answered, relevance. 11 THE WITNESS: Symptoms. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you have any training in 14 psychology or psychiatry? 15 A No, I don't. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever known anyone who has 19 killed himself or herself? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 137 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You have. What were the 3 circumstances that you recognized? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Other than what you testified to. 8 A I didn't recognize their symptoms. 9 You only asked me if I knew of someone. 10 Q The very first day that you learned 11 that Mr. Foster had died, did you form an 12 opinion immediately that it was suicide or 13 did you first think it was perhaps other than 14 suicide? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form and 16 relevance. 17 MR. MILLS: Objection, form, 18 relevance; it's repetitive and becoming 19 harassing. 20 THE WITNESS: I did not form an 21 opinion of how he died. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 138 1 Q You've never formed that opinion. 2 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: Incorrect. I have 5 formed an opinion. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Well, at what point? That's what 8 I'm saying. 9 A I don't recall the exact point that 10 I formed that opinion. 11 Q Within months, within years? 12 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 13 objection. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall at 15 what time. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Given the fact that it was a period 18 of time before you arrived at a conclusion or 19 an opinion that Mr. Foster was the subject of 20 suicide, did you yourself have any fear that 21 something could happen to you before you came 22 to the conclusion that Mr. Foster had killed 139 1 himself? 2 MR. MILLS: Objection to form; 3 objection to relevance, and it's harassment. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in all 7 objections. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: The only thing that's 9 harassing here are your objections. Please 10 respond. 11 MR. MILLS: I take exception to 12 that. We're entitled to make objections. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the record 14 speak for itself. 15 MR. MILLS: Well, then let it speak 16 for itself. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you understand my question? 20 A No, I had no fear. 21 Q Let me see if I phrased it 22 correctly. I'm not trying to harass you. 140 1 What I'm trying to say is before you came to 2 the conclusion that he killed himself, when 3 this was still uncertain as to how he died, 4 did you yourself feel that you might be at 5 risk? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 7 answered. 8 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 9 objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Please respond. 12 A No, I never felt at risk. 13 Q Did you feel that anybody else 14 might be at risk? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 16 objections. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Surely the thought must have 21 crossed your mind that perhaps he had been 22 killed by someone else? 141 1 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 2 objections. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: No. It never crossed 5 my mind. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So you formed the conclusion that 8 he killed himself from the very first moment 9 you learned that he was dead? 10 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I did not form an 14 opinion. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q So you are saying that you never 17 ever even had a glancing thought that you and 18 other people around Mr. Foster might be at 19 risk? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 21 objection. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 142 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Have you had an opportunity to read 4 Linda Tripp's testimony in this case? 5 A I have. 6 Q Who gave you a copy of it? 7 A My attorney. 8 Q Did you read the part where she 9 says that Monica Lewinsky left on her chair a 10 list of 58 people who died during this 11 administration? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 MR. MILLS: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I did read that part. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Were you aware that people from 18 this administration had died in the last six 19 years before you read that transcript? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 143 1 relevancy, also. 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You weren't aware of one person 5 dying except for Mr. Foster? 6 MR. MILLS: Objection. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who 9 was on the list. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Well, you had read in the 12 newspaper, however, that there were more than 13 one person who had died associated with the 14 Clintons and this administration in the last 15 six years, you were aware of that before you 16 read Tripp's deposition. Correct? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I did not read 20 that in the newspaper. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Were you aware of that from some 144 1 other source? 2 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 3 THE WITNESS: No, I was not. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you need newspapers on a regular 6 basis? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you read The Washington Post? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 10 answered. 11 THE WITNESS: I do. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you read The Washington Times? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you vote for President Clinton 16 in 1992 and '96? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection, privilege. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 19 relevancy. 20 MR. MILLS: Don't answer the 21 question. It's privileged. Do not answer 22 the question. It's a privilege. 145 1 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, certify 2 it.* 3 Bears on bias, bears on 4 credibility, state of mind. 5 MR. MILLS: I don't understand 6 that. Can you explain to me why you think 7 the privilege is -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just putting it 9 on the record. I don't want to clutter the 10 record as you do, Mr. Mills. 11 MR. MILLS: I just want to know the 12 basis. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's unnecessary. 14 You've taken your position. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you think that President Clinton 17 has done a good job since 1992? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 19 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I have not formulated 21 an opinion on that. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 146 1 Q Do you think that Mrs. Clinton has 2 done a good job as First Lady since 1992? 3 A I have no opinion on that. 4 Q Would you like to consult with your 5 counsel over my question as to whether or not 6 you voted for Mr. Clinton in '92 and '96? 7 It's your privilege, it's not his. 8 MR. MILLS: I object to that 9 question as asking her how she feels about 10 seeking legal advice. I'm sorry to make a 11 speaking objection, but I never heard a 12 question like that. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Would you like to 14 consult with your counsel about that? I'll 15 be happy to give you some time. 16 MR. MILLS: I tell you what, 17 Mr. Klayman, I'll talk to my counsel about 18 that at the next break. If you're still 19 interested in that question? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Your counsel? 21 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. I'll speak 22 with my client. 147 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 2 MR. MILLS: Thank you for catching 3 that mistake on my part. I'll consult with 4 my client on that question and if she wants 5 to answer that question I'll tell you about 6 it. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I want to ask 8 her because you asserted it for her and I 9 don't think you can do it for her. She's got 10 to do it for herself. Why don't you take a 11 minute right now and discuss it. 12 MR. MILLS: We're not going off the 13 record to discuss it. If you want to on the 14 clock discuss it with her, I'll be happy to. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Do it at 16 the next break. 17 MR. MILLS: That's fine. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: You can do it over 19 lunch, how's that? 20 MR. MILLS: If we break for lunch, 21 that's what I'll do. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 148 1 Q Have you ever been critical of 2 anything that this administration has done? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have you ever been critical of 7 anything Mr. and Mrs. Clinton have done? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 9 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Are you a registered Democrat? 13 MR. MILLS: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What are you registered as? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I'm 19 registered. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever voted? 22 A I have. 149 1 Q When was the last time you voted? 2 A In 1996. 3 Q Where did you vote, in the District 4 of Columbia? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Where did you vote? 7 A Virginia. 8 Q You don't have to register as 9 Independent, Democrat or Republican in 10 Virginia to vote? 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q So you might be a registered 13 Democrat? 14 A Or I might be a registered 15 Republican, but I don't remember the 16 registration process. 17 Q When did you review Linda Tripp's 18 testimony? 19 A Within the last past two, three 20 weeks. 21 Q There were several sessions, there 22 were four sessions. Did you review each one? 150 1 A I did. 2 Q How long did it take you to review 3 all that? 4 A I don't remember how long it was in 5 time. 6 Q Did you take notes of the testimony 7 when you reviewed it? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 10 MR. MILLS: Objection. Calls for 11 privileged information. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Not whether she took 13 notes, Mr. Mills. I haven't asked for the 14 notes yet. 15 MR. MILLS: You asked if anyone 16 took notes of Linda Tripp's testimony. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. That's not 18 privileged. You can answer that. 19 MR. MILLS: It's privileged to the 20 extent it's calling for notes of counsel. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if you have 22 them, that's fine. But still I haven't asked 151 1 you to produce them. The fact they may exist 2 is not privileged. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Please respond. 5 A I don't know if anyone took notes 6 or not. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Did you take notes, 8 Mr. Mills? 9 MR. MILLS: Are you seriously 10 asking me a question? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I figured maybe you 12 might offer it to us as a matter of justice. 13 MR. MILLS: I think I'll just let 14 the deposition proceed with you asking 15 questions of the witness. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp's 18 testimony with anyone? 19 A I did. 20 Q Who other than your counsel? 21 A No one. 22 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp's 152 1 testimony with Betsy Pond? 2 A No. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 4 answered. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have you reviewed Betsy Pond's 7 testimony before today in this lawsuit? 8 A I have. 9 Q Have you reviewed the testimony of 10 Stephen Waudby? 11 A I have. 12 Q Have you reviewed the testimony of 13 anyone else who has testified in this case? 14 A No, I haven't. 15 Q Craig Livingstone? 16 A No. 17 Q William Kennedy? 18 A No. 19 Q Have you had any conversations with 20 any of the lawyers in this room today other 21 than Mr. Mills and his colleagues sitting at 22 his right? 153 1 A Have I had any conversations today? 2 Each of these folks introduced themselves to 3 me. 4 Q Well, before today have you had any 5 conversations with the Department of Justice 6 about this lawsuit and your appearance here 7 today? 8 A I have. 9 Q When did you have those 10 conversations? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the 13 exact date. Perhaps about three to four 14 weeks ago. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q How did those conversations come 17 about? 18 A I believe they contacted my counsel 19 and requested a meeting. 20 Q How did you find out that they had 21 contacted your counsel? 22 A My counsel told me. 154 1 Q Mr. Mills? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Who is "they"? 4 A Ms. Shapiro, yes. 5 Q Did you have a meeting? 6 A We did. 7 Q When did the meeting take place? 8 MR. MILLS: Asked and answered, 9 objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A I don't remember the exact day. 13 Q Where did it take place? 14 A At our office. 15 Q Who was present? 16 A Mr. Mills, Ms. Shapiro, 17 Mr. Gilligan. 18 Q Anyone else? 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Wagner? Were you 20 present, Mr. Wagner? I can't recall. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Anyone else? 155 1 A No, sir. 2 Q How long did the meeting last? 3 A Approximately one hour. 4 Q Did counsel for the Justice 5 Department ask you questions? 6 A They did. 7 Q Mr. Gilligan? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did you give him answers? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Before today did you ever think of 12 meeting with counsel for the Plaintiffs in 13 this lawsuit? 14 A You mean prior to my subpoena, sir? 15 Q Yes. 16 A No. 17 Q Did you ask your lawyer to contact 18 me so we could also meet with you? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Do you have an opinion as to 21 whether it's proper for you to meet with 22 counsel for the Justice Department but not 156 1 counsel for the Plaintiffs in this case? 2 A No, I don't have an opinion 3 regarding that. 4 Q Have you ever thought of whether 5 you should meet with one side and not the 6 other? 7 A No. I'm happy to meet with anyone. 8 Q Would you meet with me after this 9 deposition? 10 A Well, I suppose if you invited me. 11 Q I'll invite you. Will you meet 12 with me? 13 A If you send me a subpoena. 14 Q Did the Justice Department send you 15 a subpoena? 16 A No, they didn't. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's break for 18 lunch. 19 MR. MILLS: What time are we going 20 to be back? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: In an hour. 22 MR. MILLS: I would ask we come 157 1 back at 1:00 o'clock. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 3 MR. MILLS: 1:00 o'clock is a 4 little less than an hour, but I would ask 5 that we come back at 1:00 o'clock to keep it 6 moving. Is everyone agreeable to that? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Yeah, that's 8 agreeable. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I need an hour, so 10 we'll make it 1:10. 11 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. I thought 12 we just agreed to 1:00 o'clock. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I misread my 14 watch. I need an hour. That's reasonable 15 and that's the normal lunch hour. 16 MR. MILLS: Fine. One hour. 17 THE WITNESS: We're going off video 18 record at 12:08. 19 (Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., a 20 luncheon recess was taken.) 21 22 158 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:13 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 DEBORAH GORHAM 5 was recalled as a witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 9 CONTINUED 10 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 11 record at 1:13. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Did you have an 13 opportunity, Mr. Mills, to consult with your 14 client about the question that you were going 15 to consult with her about? 16 MR. MILLS: Yes, I did. What she 17 has decided to do was she will agree to 18 answer that question on the condition that we 19 agree that it does not constitute a general 20 waiver of her privilege with regard to 21 political votes, and she'll answer that 22 question as to who she voted for for the two 159 1 elections you mentioned. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Can you answer that question, who 5 did you vote for in '92 and '96 for 6 Presidential candidates? 7 A In 1992 I voted for Ross Perot. 8 In 1996 I voted for Bob Dole. 9 Q Having worked for the Clinton 10 Administration in 1993, did your experience 11 there influence your decision to vote for Bob 12 Dole in 1996? 13 A No. 14 Q Are you saying that none of your 15 experiences at The White House played a role 16 in your deciding who to vote for in 1996? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 18 answered. 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Why did you vote for Bob Dole as 21 opposed to Bill Clinton in 1996? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 160 1 THE WITNESS: I suppose I favored 2 more his conservative business opinions and 3 social reform. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In fact, one of the reasons you 6 voted for Bob Dole was because you didn't 7 like what you saw at The White House. 8 Correct? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 10 answered. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MR. MILLS: Mischaracterization. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 A No, that's incorrect. 16 Q In fact you were very troubled with 17 the things that you had experienced at The 18 White House. Correct? 19 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't. 161 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Is there any way that we can verify 3 that you voted for Bob Dole in 1996? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 6 MR. MILLS: That's harassment. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Is there any way that we can verify 9 that you voted for Ross Perot in 1992? 10 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you ever told anyone who you 14 voted for before today in those two elections 15 for President? 16 MR. MILLS: Other than counsel and 17 husband? Otherwise, I'll object. Objection, 18 privileged. I am sorry. I didn't mean to 19 make a speaking objection. Objection, 20 privileged. Don't answer that. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let me exclude 22 husband and counsel. We'll take it your way, 162 1 having your admittedly injected. Other than 2 your husband -- well, see, that messed up the 3 question. 4 MR. MILLS: I apologize. You were 5 asking a question that would have called for 6 privileged information. I didn't mean to 7 suggest that you should have excluded husband 8 and attorney. 9 But if you are not going to exclude 10 it, it is objectionable as privileged. I 11 think you know that. I don't know what else 12 I can do, Mr. Klayman. You can't ask her 13 about those things anyway. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, again, it's for 15 her to assert and not for you, you see? 16 MR. MILLS: I'm asserting on her 17 behalf, sir. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: The problem here is 19 that you've now given her some testimony. 20 That's the problem. 21 MR. MILLS: No, that cannot be 22 correct because she would not testify about 163 1 whether she would have said anything to her 2 husband or to her attorney. I'm asserting 3 those privileges on her behalf. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Having already 5 tainted the testimony in my opinion, let's 6 ask the question that way. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you ever discussed who you 9 voted for in 1992 with anyone other than your 10 lawyer and your husband? 11 A No. 12 Q None of your friends. 13 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 14 answered. 15 THE WITNESS: None of my friends. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q From 1992 to present, this isn't 18 necessarily related to who you voted for, 19 but -- excuse me, Mr. Gaffney? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm consulting with 21 my co-counsel and I don't think I interrupted 22 the question. 164 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. You did 2 interrupt me, and we heard laughing before. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Who did you hear 4 laughing from, Mr. Klayman? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Shapiro. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't believe I was 7 laughing, Mr. Klayman. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you were 9 laughing. Now please, could we keep some 10 decorum here? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Where is the -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: This is not a fun 13 proceeding for anybody, I'm sure, and it's 14 not worthy to be laughing or interrupting 15 while I'm talking, please. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Excuse me, 17 Mr. Klayman. I didn't interrupt you when you 18 were talking. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: You did. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I didn't. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I'm not asking this with regard to 165 1 who you voted for. But from 1992 to the 2 present, who are your closest friends? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 5 objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 MR. MILLS: That's harassment. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Please respond. 11 A My husband. 12 Q There are people, however, that you 13 do confide in, that you tell them, you know, 14 what's going on in your life. Right? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection to form, same 16 objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Correct? 19 A Only in the most limited of way. 20 Q There are people that from 1992 to 21 present you have talked about your work 22 experience with, outside of your husband and 166 1 your lawyer. Correct? 2 MR. MILLS: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: My work experience 4 with? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Yes. 7 A Professionally as a career? 8 Q Yeah. 9 A At my law firm? 10 Q Let me ask you this: Do you have 11 friends? Without regard to who they are, 12 have you had friends from 1992 to present? 13 A I have. 14 Q You have from time to time with 15 those friends from 1992 to present told them 16 about your experiences professionally? 17 A Throughout my career as a 18 professional no matter where I was working? 19 Q The question was from 1992 to 20 present. 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Who are some of the people that you 167 1 have talked about what you were doing 2 professionally? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 5 THE WITNESS: With regard to my 6 work at Dow, Lohnes & Albertson -- 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Let's talk about with regard to 9 your work at The White House. 10 MR. MILLS: I think the witness was 11 in the process of answering the question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. Let me 13 ask it this way so I can zero it in. 14 MR. MILLS: I would ask as a matter 15 of courtesy that you allow the witness to 16 answer the question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Fine. These are not trick 19 questions. 20 A At the present law firm I work with 21 I've spoken with the secretaries, my 22 colleagues. 168 1 Q Who are they? 2 MR. MILLS: Objection to relevance. 3 THE WITNESS: Various secretaries 4 in the group that I work with. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q During the course of time since you 7 began working at The White House up to the 8 present time, you did discuss your work at 9 The White House with some of your friends. 10 Correct? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q In however small a way. 14 A I probably discussed who I worked 15 with. 16 Q What do you mean by you probably 17 discussed who you worked with? 18 A Who I worked for, who my supervisor 19 was. 20 Q Who did you discuss that with? 21 A My husband, my girlfriend, some of 22 the ladies I work with. 169 1 Q Who is the girlfriend and some of 2 the ladies you work with? 3 A Who are they? 4 Q Yes. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: They're my friends. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Yes. I'd like to get their names. 9 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 10 objection. 11 THE WITNESS: Merle Pullar. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Merle, how is that spelled? 14 A M-e-r-l-e. 15 Q Pullar, P-u-l-l-e-r? 16 A A-r. 17 Q A-r. Where does she work? 18 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: Airline Pilots 20 Association. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Who else? 170 1 A Tammy Foxwell. 2 Q Where does she work? 3 A At Dow, Lohnes & Albertson. 4 Q At the time that you worked in The 5 White House, who were your closest friends? 6 A My husband. 7 Q Aside from that. 8 A Merle Pullar. 9 Q Anyone else? 10 A No. 11 Q Is there anyone else that you've 12 discussed your experience at The White House 13 with besides these two people? 14 A My experience, my professional 15 experience? 16 MR. MILLS: Object. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Any aspect of it. 19 MR. MILLS: I object to that. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Any aspect of your time at The 22 White House, even the fact you just worked 171 1 there. Who are your closest friends that you 2 would have been in contact with during the 3 period you worked at The White House and 4 thereafter? 5 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 8 THE WITNESS: Other than those 9 individuals, perhaps my daughter. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What's your daughter's name? 12 A Dawn May. 13 MR. MILLS: Objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Dawn? 16 A Dawn May. 17 Q Dawn May. Where does she live? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's 19 harassment. Irrelevant. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not 21 harassment. 22 MR. MILLS: It is harassment. 172 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to find 2 out who she has been in contact with because 3 maybe what she's told them will differ from 4 what we get today. 5 MR. MILLS: Where this poor woman's 6 daughter lives is relevant to this case? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: So we can try to find 8 her. If you want to give it to me in 9 confidence, that's fine. I'll take it on a 10 confidential record if there's an objection. 11 MR. MILLS: You can say the town on 12 a confidential basis. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I think you 14 understand she's giving testimony here today, 15 and we want people that she's spoken with and 16 interacted with so we can confirm that what 17 she says is true or not. That's the reason 18 we're doing this. 19 MR. MILLS: On all details or just 20 relevant details? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: On what she's 22 testifying to. 173 1 MR. MILLS: You haven't asked 2 anything about any substantive issues about 3 The White House experience. That's why I'm 4 objecting is because you haven't established 5 that any of these people have any relevant 6 information. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: We are not Karnak. 8 We can't answer the question before we ask 9 it. So I'm just trying to find out who she 10 has been in contact with. 11 MR. MILLS: I thought you were 12 asking where they live. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Anybody that you are close to that 15 you would have mentioned any aspect of your 16 experience at The White House with. 17 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. Is there a 18 question? 19 THE WITNESS: I mean I answered the 20 last question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Now, if you want to give the name 174 1 of where your daughter is located to us 2 through your counsel confidentially, that's 3 fine. Would you prefer to do that? 4 A I would. 5 Q Will you do that, Mr. Mills? 6 MR. MILLS: I'll give you the name of 7 the town where she lives. If you think that 8 you need to get in touch with her beyond that, 9 you know, if the court feels that that's 10 appropriate I'll do that, absolutely. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Other than friends and other than 14 family members and other than counsel, is 15 there anyone that you have spoken with about 16 any aspect of your experience at The White 17 House? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 175 1 Q If you want to go on a confidential 2 record to answer this question, that is fine, 3 too. Have you ever spoken about your White 4 House experience with any counselor, 5 psychological counselors, psychiatrists or 6 anything like that? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to go 10 confidential, we'll go confidential. 11 MR. MILLS: She's not willing to do 12 that. That would be a privileged issue 13 whether she had consultations with someone 14 for that purpose. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I kept it 16 broad. But obviously we're dealing here with 17 a situation that obviously had a lot of 18 psychological, potential psychological trauma 19 to it. 20 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, you said 21 something there and I'm just wondering how 22 the Filegate issue might have caused 176 1 psychological trauma to my client. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Her experience at The 3 White House. Her letter makes reference to 4 it, the Exhibit 2, the death of Vince Foster. 5 MR. MILLER: But that's not what 6 this case is about, is it. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to get 8 into an argument with you about that. 9 MR. MILLS: I'm not arguing. I'm 10 just asking. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't want to 12 get into an argument. 13 MR. MILLS: It's relevant 14 because -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me make my 16 proffer here. If you want to instruct her 17 not to answer, I'll move the court. But 18 there very well may be instances where she 19 consulted with someone professionally that 20 would not be covered by any privilege. 21 That's why I'm allowed to at least 22 find out if there was a consultation. I'm 177 1 not asking for the substance of it, and who 2 it was with. If you want to go on a 3 confidential record, I'll oblige you with 4 that. 5 MR. MILLS: I'll consider that, but 6 at this time I don't believe that's accurate. 7 I think she is entitled to assert a privilege 8 if she wishes to do that. But if at the end 9 of the day that remains an issue, we can 10 revisit it then after I've had a chance to 11 talk with her. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you ever have a conversation in 14 the presence of Linda Tripp or Betsy Pond 15 where you discussed the possibility that any 16 of you could be called to testify in legal 17 proceedings concerning the Clinton 18 Administration? 19 A No. 20 Q You're absolutely certain of that. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did you ever have a conversation 178 1 with Betsy Pond and/or Linda Tripp where you 2 said that "If I'm called to testify I'm going 3 to testify this way," or the other way, where 4 you discussed how you were going to testify? 5 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 6 answered. 7 THE WITNESS: I never had such a 8 conversing with either ladies. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you know of any conversation 11 between Linda Tripp and Betsy Pond where 12 either of them mentioned the possibility that 13 they could be called to testify in a matter 14 involving the Clinton Administration? 15 A No, I don't. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever discussed with Betsy 19 Pond either future testimony or past 20 testimony that she gave in any legal 21 proceeding? 22 A No. 179 1 Q Same question with regard to Linda 2 Tripp? 3 A No. 4 Q I'm not asking you this question in 5 any way to harass you. I think you can see 6 my tone has been very measured today. I just 7 want to see if you understand if anyone has 8 ever explained to you what it means to be 9 under oath. 10 MR. MILLS: Objection. I do 11 consider that harassment, notwithstanding the 12 characterization. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 14 objection. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 16 of the question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Has anyone ever explained that to 19 you? 20 A I can't remember if anyone has ever 21 explained it to me, but I've certainly read 22 about it. 180 1 Q What do you understand your 2 obligations to be when you're under oath? 3 A To answer the questions truthfully. 4 Q Is there any other aspect of being 5 under oath that you understand is required? 6 A I believe to answer the truth to 7 the questions in whole as I know them. 8 Q Do you understand it means telling 9 all the truth? 10 MR. MILLS: Objection. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Not withholding anything. 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you know of anyone who worked at 19 the Clinton White House who has been held 20 accountable for not telling everything that 21 they've known under oath? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 181 1 MR. MILLS: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 3 Considering the limited amount of reading. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I've read about it. Have you ever 6 discussed with anyone either who worked for 7 the Clinton White House or still works for 8 the Clinton White House any aspect of 9 providing testimony in legal proceedings? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever discuss that with 12 Mr. Eggleston? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you ever discuss that with 15 Ms. Nimitz? 16 A No, I don't believe the nature of 17 that came up at all. 18 Q Did you ever discuss anything like 19 that with Mr. Bernard Nussbaum? 20 A No. 21 Q Vince Foster? 22 A No. 182 1 Q Do you know that Mr. Nussbaum is a 2 defendant in this case? 3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 4 the question. Mr. Nussbaum is not a 5 defendant. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you know that he was initially 8 named as a defendant in this case? 9 A No, I do not. 10 Q Are you aware that he's testifying 11 tomorrow? 12 A I heard that. 13 Q Where did you hear that? 14 A In this conference room. 15 Q When did you hear that? 16 A This morning. 17 Q Who told you that? 18 A No one told me that. I overheard 19 that. 20 Q Well, who said it? 21 A Mr. Mazur mentioned it to someone. 22 Q Tell me where you went to high 183 1 school. 2 A White Station. 3 Q Where is that? 4 A Memphis, Tennessee. 5 Q What year did you graduate? 6 A 1970. 7 Q What did you do then 8 professionally? 9 A I went to college. 10 Q Where did you go to college? 11 A Memphis State University. 12 Q What did you major in? 13 A Marketing. 14 Q What year did you graduate? 15 A I have not yet. 16 Q You never graduated. 17 A Not from Memphis State University, 18 no. 19 Q Did you go to another university 20 after that? 21 A I'm presently enrolled in two 22 universities, yes. 184 1 Q Where is that? 2 A At George Mason University and 3 NOVA. 4 Q What are you studying there? 5 A Law. 6 Q You would like to be a lawyer? 7 A Not necessarily. 8 Q What would you like to be? 9 A More knowledgeable. 10 Q At which one are you going to law 11 school, both of them? 12 A I hope to -- 13 MR. MILLS: Objection. No 14 foundation. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Are you in law school right now? 17 A No, I'm not. 18 Q So what kind of a program is this 19 that you're studying at George Mason and 20 NOVA? 21 A I'm finishing my baccalaureate at 22 George Mason and I'm enrolled in the ABA 185 1 certified approved legal assistant program at 2 NOVA. 3 Q So you would like at least as a 4 preliminary matter to be a paralegal. 5 A Not necessarily. 6 Q Do you have ultimate objectives? 7 A More knowledge. 8 Q Tell me what your work experience 9 has been from the time of your very first job 10 up to the present. We'll see if we can do 11 this as quickly as possible to get some 12 background, where you've worked and who your 13 supervisors have been at each job. 14 A In 1968 I started working in high 15 school for a ladies dress shop. 16 Q Where was that? 17 A In Memphis. 18 Q What was the name of it? 19 A Jean's, as in the ladies name with 20 an apostrophe "S." 21 Q Who was your supervisor? 22 A I do not remember his name. 186 1 Q Do you remember anybody you worked 2 with? 3 A I remember their faces but not 4 their names. 5 Q Continue on. That's the kind of 6 information I want for each job. So if you 7 can give it for me as you take it up to the 8 present we'll move this along quickly. 9 A To the best of my recollection, I 10 then worked for the U.S. Treasury Department 11 in Washington, D.C. in 1974. 12 Q What did you do for U.S. Treasury? 13 A I was a clerk typist. 14 Q Who was your supervisor? 15 A I do not recall their name. 16 Q Do you remember anybody you worked 17 for? 18 A Only faces, not names. 19 Q How long did you stay there? 20 A About a year. 21 Q Why did you leave? 22 A I returned home to Memphis, 187 1 Tennessee. 2 Q What did you do then? 3 A I worked for the Internal Revenue 4 Service. 5 Q What was your job there? 6 A Payroll clerk. 7 Q How long did you work there? 8 A Until 1976. 9 Q What happened then? 10 A I moved back to Washington. 11 Q Who was your supervisor at the IRS? 12 A I do not recall her name. 13 Q Up to that point in time had you 14 been ever terminated from a job? 15 A No. 16 Q Were you terminated from the IRS? 17 A No. 18 Q Had you ever received any negative 19 reviews on any of your employment? 20 A No. 21 Q So you moved back to Washington. 22 What year was that? 188 1 A It was July 1976. 2 Q What happened then? 3 A I worked for the Department of 4 Labor. 5 Q What was your position? 6 A I was a secretary. 7 Q Who was your supervisor? 8 A Donald Lemmon. 9 Q Did you work with anyone else 10 there? 11 A Kathel Carroll. 12 Q How is that spelled? 13 A K-a-t-h-e-l, C-a-r-r-o-l-l. 14 Q How long did you stay at the 15 Department of Labor? 16 A Until January of 1978. 17 Q What happened then? 18 A I went on maternity leave. 19 Q Are you still married to the same 20 person? 21 A I am not. 22 Q What was that person's name that 189 1 you were previously married to? 2 A Richard May. 3 Q Do you know where he is located? 4 A I do. 5 Q Where is that? 6 A In Virginia. 7 Q Northern Virginia? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Do you know who he works for? 10 A No, I don't. 11 Q Have you been in contact with him 12 in the last six years? 13 MR. MILLS: Objection to relevance. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Where was the last place he worked 17 that you know of? 18 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: Bell Atlantic. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Does Mr. May have a middle name? 22 A He does. 190 1 Q What's that? 2 A Thomas. 3 Q Did you ever talk to him about your 4 experience at the Clinton White House? 5 A No. 6 Q Any aspect of it? 7 A No. 8 Q Even that you were working there? 9 A No. 10 Q So in '78 you were back, you made 11 another job switch. Where did you go then? 12 A I transferred to the U.S. 13 Geological Survey in Reston, Virginia. 14 Q What did you do for them? 15 A I worked as a payroll clerk. 16 Q Who were your immediate 17 supervisors? 18 A I do not recall their names. 19 Q Do you remember anybody you worked 20 with? 21 A Only faces. 22 Q How long did you stay there? 191 1 A Until December of 1980. 2 Q What did you do at that time? 3 A I transferred to Houston, Texas, to 4 the Federal courts. 5 Q To where? 6 A To the Federal courts, U.S. 7 District and Bankruptcy Court. 8 Q Who did you work for there? 9 A Jesse Blanco. 10 Q Was this a job? 11 A No, it was the clerk of the court. 12 Q You worked for the clerk. 13 A That's right. 14 Q Who else did you work with in that 15 office? 16 A I don't remember their names. 17 Q Why did you move to Houston? 18 A I was offered a position and 19 accepted service within the government. 20 Q How long did you stay working for 21 the Bankruptcy Court, et cetera in Houston? 22 A Until November 1983. 192 1 Q What happened after that? 2 A I went to work for Mr. Blanco who 3 had left the government and went into private 4 practice. 5 Q He went into private practice as a 6 lawyer? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q You were his secretary? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q How long did you work with him? 11 A About three more years. 12 Q Who else was in that office? 13 A At the law firm? 14 Q Mmm-hmm. 15 A Rhett Campbell, and I do not 16 remember the first name of the named partner. 17 Q How long did you stay with 18 Mr. Blanco? 19 A Until 1985. 20 Q What happened then? 21 A I left the employment and went to 22 work for another law firm in Houston. 193 1 Q What law firm was that? 2 A Sheinfeld, Mayle & Kay. 3 Q Sheinfeld? 4 A Mayle & Kay. 5 Q Who did you work with there? 6 A Miriam Kass. 7 Q How is that spelled? 8 A K-a-s-s. 9 Q Anyone else? 10 A I don't recall the associate's 11 name. 12 Q How long did you stay in that job? 13 A Until February of 1986. 14 Q What happened then? 15 A I returned to Washington, D.C. 16 Q You got another job? 17 A With Dow, Lohnes & Albertson. 18 Q Why did you return to Washington? 19 A My former husband passed away, so I 20 returned to this area. 21 Q Mr. May? 22 A No, my second husband. 194 1 Q Who was your second husband? 2 A Curtis White. 3 Q Did you have any children with 4 Curtis White? 5 A No. 6 Q Who did you work with at Dow, 7 Lohnes & Albertson beginning in '86? 8 A John Logan. 9 Q Anyone else? 10 A Not at that time. A year later I 11 started working for the managing partner. 12 Q Who was that? 13 A Daniel Touhey. 14 Q Daniel Touhey? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is Mr. Touhey and Mr. Logan still 17 there? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Who else did you work with at the 20 firm at that time during that period? 21 A Those were the only two attorneys. 22 Q Were there some secretaries that 195 1 you were close with? 2 A No, not really. 3 Q How long did you stay at Dow, 4 Lohnes & Albertson? 5 A Until March of 1993. 6 Q Up to that point in time had you 7 ever been asked to leave a job? 8 A No. 9 Q Had you ever been convicted of a 10 crime? 11 A No. 12 Q This Mr. Daniel Touhey, do you 13 know, did he leave Dow, Lohnes & Albertson at 14 some point? 15 A I don't know if he has. I 16 understand perhaps he's special counsel or 17 senior counsel. 18 Q Did he ever work with Independent 19 Counsel Ken Starr? 20 A Not that I'm aware of. 21 Q What happened in March of 1993? 22 A I offered my resignation at the law 196 1 firm and went to work at The White House. 2 Q Now, how did it come to pass that 3 you got a job at The White House? How did 4 that happen? 5 A I was called one evening at home by 6 our legal personnel manager and she told me 7 that Sheila Foster Anthony, Vince's sister, 8 had called her and asked her if there were 9 anyone that she would recommend who could 10 work with her brother. 11 Q Who was the personnel manager? 12 A Judy Bush. 13 Q Is she still there? 14 A She is. 15 Q Did Ms. Bush tell you that she had 16 thought of you or some other people at Dow, 17 Lohnes? 18 A She said that she offered my name 19 and wanted to know if that was all right and 20 if I were interested, and if I was to give 21 her a resume the following week. 22 Q Why was she offering up your name? 197 1 Did you tell her that you wanted to leave? 2 A No, I did not. 3 Q Do you have any knowledge why she 4 was offering up your name to go work 5 somewhere else? 6 A It was explained to me that she 7 thought perhaps that I had the demeanor and 8 the civility to be able to work as a 9 secretary in that office. 10 Q What led her to believe that? Did 11 she tell you? 12 A No, she didn't. 13 Q Did you have a feeling that maybe 14 they wanted you to go work somewhere else? 15 A No, it never crossed my mind. 16 Q What happened after that? 17 A After the conversation? I gave her 18 my resume and then she forwarded it to Sheila 19 Foster Anthony. 20 Q What happened then? 21 A I received a phone call from 22 Mr. Foster and he asked me if I would like to 198 1 come in for an interview. 2 Q Vince Foster. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you then go in for an 5 interview? 6 A I did. 7 Q Did you meet with him? 8 A I did. 9 Q Was anyone else present? 10 A No. 11 Q Where did you meet with him? 12 A In his office. 13 Q What did he say to you? 14 A He asked me about my experiences 15 that appeared on my resume. I can't recall 16 what else we talked about at that time. It 17 was so long ago. 18 Q Did he tell you what he was 19 interested in you to do, what your duties and 20 responsibilities would be if he offered you a 21 job? 22 A I don't remember what else we 199 1 discussed. 2 Q Did you have an interview with him 3 only once or did you come back again? 4 A I had an interview with him only 5 once. 6 Q Were you then offered a job? 7 A I was. 8 Q How did you receive notification of 9 that? 10 A He called me. 11 Q What did he say to you? 12 A He offered me the position and told 13 me what the salary was. 14 Q What position was that? 15 A To work as his executive assistant 16 there in the office. 17 Q At that time did he tell you what 18 the duties and responsibilities were as 19 executive assistant? 20 A I don't remember if that was part 21 of our conversation. 22 Q So up to that point in time you 200 1 really didn't know what your duties and 2 responsibilities would be? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation. 4 THE WITNESS: No. I don't remember 5 what we discussed. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did Mr. Foster ever tell you what 8 his duties and responsibilities were up to 9 that point in time? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q In terms of your salary, what grade 12 level were you at, were you being offered? 13 A I wasn't offered a grade level. I 14 was only offered an annual salary. 15 Q What was that? 16 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 MR. MILLS: I'd like this to go on 20 confidence, if you don't mind. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. Why 22 don't you give it to me later and we'll put 201 1 it on a confidential record. Okay? 2 MR. MILLS: That's preferable, 3 thank you. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll save all these 5 up. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you accept the position? 8 A No, I did not. 9 Q How did you notify him that you 10 didn't accept it? 11 A I told him that I could not accept 12 it. 13 Q Why couldn't you accept it? 14 A Because the salary was much less 15 than I was currently earning. 16 Q So what happened then, if anything? 17 A He stated that he would get back 18 with me and see if there was any more 19 budgeting amount that could be paid to 20 increase my salary. 21 Q Did he get back to you? 22 A He did. 202 1 Q Did he up the amount? 2 A He did. 3 Q We'll get that on the confidential 4 record. Now, did you ultimately get the job? 5 A I did. 6 Q After you got the job what did you 7 have to do? Did you have to fill out some 8 forms? 9 A Not prior to my arrival there, no. 10 When I arrived there. 11 Q When did you arrive there? 12 A Approximately March 8, 1993. 13 Q Did you meet with Mr. Foster at 14 that time? 15 A I'm sure I saw him that day, but I 16 don't recall if we had any meetings, so to 17 speak. 18 Q Did there come a point when you met 19 with him or others and they told you what 20 your duties and responsibilities were going 21 to be? 22 A I believe so, that probably 203 1 occurred. 2 Q When did that happen? 3 A I don't remember exactly when that 4 happened, how early into the week when I 5 arrived. 6 Q Tell me what you learned were going 7 to be your duties and responsibilities. 8 A Essentially correspondence, 9 transcription of tapes, answering of 10 telephones. 11 Q What do you mean by correspondence? 12 A Write memos, letters, very typical 13 generic work. 14 Q At that point in time did you have 15 experience using a PC, a computer? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did they tell you that you were 18 going to be working on a PC from time to 19 time? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Was there, I'll call the computer a 22 PC, was a PC assigned to you? 204 1 A Yes. 2 Q What kind of a PC was that? 3 A I don't remember the name brand and 4 can't even remember if it was a two, three 5 or 486. 6 Q A desktop? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you know whether you inherited 9 that computer from somebody else or did you 10 get it new? 11 A I don't remember. If someone had 12 used it or not or if that was unused but 13 simply placed there. 14 Q Well, when you first started 15 working on it, did you find any files on it 16 on the hard drive? 17 A I don't remember at this time. 18 Q You were going to use that PC to 19 prepare correspondence? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Word processing? 22 A That's correct. 205 1 Q What kind of software was on that 2 PC when you first started working at The 3 White House? 4 A To the best of my memory, it was 5 WordPerfect and perhaps the level was 4 or 5. 6 I don't exactly remember. 7 Q Was there anything else in that 8 computer? 9 A As in software? 10 Q Yes. 11 A I don't remember what other 12 software if there were any. 13 Q That computer was linked into the 14 White House's network? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I would imagine that 17 that is who sustained it is The White House. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You imagine? I'm sorry, I didn't 20 hear you. 21 A I imagine it was The White House 22 who sustained the network, yes. 206 1 Q From that computer you could get 2 access to various White House databases. Is 3 that correct? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I can't remember what 6 the other databases were if there were any. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You do believe there were databases 9 that you could access from that computer. 10 Correct? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: At this time I can 15 only remember the WordPerfect software. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q So as of now you can only remember 18 that, but that doesn't mean there wasn't 19 other software on it, you just can't 20 remember. 21 A That is correct. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 207 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q It doesn't mean that there was not 3 access to White House databases, you just 4 can't remember now. Right? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q That's correct, isn't it? 9 A I can only remember using the 10 WordPerfect database. 11 Q That was my question. Can you 12 remember whether or not from that computer 13 terminal you could access certain White House 14 databases? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 17 answered. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I cannot 20 remember. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q So there may have been, you just 208 1 can't remember now? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 3 asked and answered. 4 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 6 THE WITNESS: There might have 7 been. I only remember the WordPerfect 8 software. 9 BY THE WITNESS: 10 Q When you first began to work with 11 Mr. Foster did you sit at the desk that you 12 designated on Exhibit 7, the one that says 13 "Gorham"? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did the computer sit on that desk? 16 A It sat on the return to the desk. 17 Q During the time that you worked in 18 the West Wing was that computer ever 19 repaired? 20 A I don't remember if it ever needed 21 repairing during a system failure. 22 Q Let me ask you a foundation 209 1 question. During the time that you worked in 2 the West Wing did that computer ever break? 3 A I don't recall. Being six years 4 later I just can't remember whether there was 5 ever a problem. 6 Q So you don't remember if it was 7 ever broke or it was ever repaired? 8 A I don't. 9 Q Do you remember whether it was ever 10 serviced? 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q Was it ever taken off your desk? 13 A Yes. 14 Q When was it taken off your desk? 15 A When I moved over to the Old 16 Executive Office Building. 17 Q I take it that that computer was 18 able to send E-mail. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I understand after 21 Senate testimony that there was electronic 22 mail capability. 210 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What do you mean by you understand 3 after Senate testimony? 4 A I understand that there was E-mail 5 capability and that I sent E-mail. 6 Q But for the fact that you learned 7 of that from someone else during Senate 8 testimony, you don't remember having sent 9 E-mail? 10 A No, I do not. 11 Q You don't remember whether it had 12 E-mail capability? 13 A I do not. 14 Q But you were able to learn from 15 Senate testimony that in fact you had sent 16 E-mail. 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Why do you think your memory went 19 blank on whether you sent E-mail? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 21 of the question. 22 MR. MILLS: Objection. 211 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I have no conclusion 3 on that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I don't mean this in any way other 6 than the way I'm going to say it, but the 7 death of Vince Foster, that was a very 8 traumatic experience, wasn't it? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 11 relevancy. 12 MR. MILLS: This is unnecessary and 13 harassing. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I take issue with 15 that. You know, I think it's unnecessary to 16 keep, you know, sticking it in and twisting 17 it, Mr. Mills. I really think that's 18 inappropriate. 19 MR. MILLS: That's a point on which 20 we agree. I think you are sticking it in and 21 twisting it about her experience with Vince 22 Foster. 212 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I think this is 2 inappropriate and if you'd let me ask the 3 questions and not be so personal here, 4 please. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q It was a traumatic experience, 7 wasn't it? 8 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: It was shocking. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Yeah. You had never experienced 13 anything like that before. No one had ever 14 died that you worked with. Correct? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No, no one that I had 18 ever worked with, that's correct. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q No one had ever died under those 21 kinds of circumstances where they just went 22 off and they never came back that you had 213 1 ever worked with? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Relevancy. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 8 THE WITNESS: No, not in that type 9 of situation. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q It was painful for you. Right? 12 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 13 objections. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q It's still painful? 18 A Extremely. 19 Q It's the kind of a situation that 20 could cause you to lose your memory. Right? 21 MR. MILLS: Objection. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 214 1 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Just out of the trauma of it, it's 6 the kind of thing that could cause you to 7 lose your memory? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 9 the question. 10 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation, 11 form. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Object. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know if the 14 two are related. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Surely you've thought of that. 17 Right? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 19 the question. 20 MR. MILLS: Objection. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I've never 215 1 thought about that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you ever discuss the emotional 4 impact of Foster's death on your emotional 5 condition with anybody? 6 MR. MILLS: Objection. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 MR. MILLS: Same objection as 9 earlier when you were trying to get that same 10 information that we discussed. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: This is asked in a 12 much more neutral way. Please respond. 13 MR. MILLS: It's calling for the 14 same answer. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not calling for 16 the same answer. 17 MR. MILLS: I object. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 MR. MILLS: I object. To the 21 extent it calls for privileged information, 22 the witness need not answer it. 216 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You're instructing 2 her not to answer? 3 MR. MILLS: I'm telling her to the 4 extent that it calls for privileged 5 information. If she consulted with somebody 6 who she'd have a privilege with, then she 7 need not answer it. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for 9 who it was, just anybody. 10 MR. MILLS: That's why I said if 11 she talked to you about it, then she could 12 answer that question. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, this is 14 objectionable. Certify it.* 15 I am not asking for any kind of 16 health care provider. I'm not asking for any 17 kind of psychiatrist or psychologist in this 18 question. 19 I just asked whether she consulted 20 with anyone. No one will be able to draw any 21 conclusion from the fact that she consulted 22 with somebody. 217 1 MR. MILLS: Fine. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Can she answer that? 3 MR. MILLS: Yes. 4 THE WITNESS: I talked with my 5 husband. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Is that the only person you talked 8 to about it? 9 MR. MILLS: Subject to the same 10 objections, she can answer that. 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So you did talk to other people? 14 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, I didn't 15 hear the question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You did talk to other people about 18 it? 19 MR. MILLS: That's objection, same 20 objections, plus asked and answered. 21 THE WITNESS: I did. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 218 1 Q Did you ever discuss with those 2 other people whether this experience of 3 Foster dying had had an effect on your own 4 emotional state of mind? 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 7 relevance. 8 MR. MILLS: That's getting into the 9 substance of it. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. You can respond. 12 MR. MILLS: Subject to the same 13 objections as to the people. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking who it 15 was or what their profession was or anything 16 like that. There is no identification. 17 MR. MILLS: To the extent it's 18 anyone with whom she would have a privilege, 19 she need not answer that. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Then we'll never have 21 an answer to the question, will we. 22 MR. MILLS: You're just not 219 1 entitled to get into things that are 2 privileged, Mr. Klayman. That's the rules. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: See, you are 4 reversing it, Mr. Mills, because I'm not even 5 asking the question. I'm just saying whether 6 there was any discussion of that with 7 anybody. 8 No one will know whether or not 9 there was a discussion with any individual 10 upon which there may be a privilege. 11 MR. MILLS: Don't you think it's 12 similar to saying "did you ever get legal 13 advice from anyone don't tell me if it was a 14 lawyer"? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: No. I just asked 16 whether she discussed it. 17 MR. MILLS: The record is made. If 18 she can answer it subject to those 19 limitations, she can answer it. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.* 21 THE WITNESS: Can I have the 22 question repeated, please. 220 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read it back, 2 Court Reporter. 3 (The reporter read the record as 4 requested.) 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So when you answer that question 8 you are excluding certain categories of 9 people. Correct? 10 A I am. 11 Q During the time that you worked for 12 Mr. Foster, did you ever use anything other 13 than this computer that had been assigned to 14 you from your very first days? 15 A As in word processing or -- not to 16 be facetious, of course, telephone, I mean 17 those are the only pieces of equipment I 18 used. 19 Q No, for word processing or for data 20 entry or whatever you may have been doing. 21 A No, I simply used that PC. 22 Q Did you ever use anybody else's PC? 221 1 A No. 2 Q I take it that you routinely backed 3 up what was on the hard drive on floppy disk? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 7 form. 8 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 9 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You must have stored some things on 12 floppy disk. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall 18 storing anything on a floppy disk. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever have floppy disks in 21 your hands during the period you worked at 22 The White House, did you ever put your hands 222 1 on a floppy disk? 2 A I don't remember that I ever did, 3 no. 4 Q Did you ever erase anything from 5 that computer? Did you ever try to erase 6 anything on the hard drive? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I believe I probably 9 erased my resume. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You had prepared a resume at one 12 point to try to leave The White House and go 13 back to private practice. Correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did you erase anything else? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know of anyone else who did? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q After Mr. Foster died, did anyone 20 take custody of your computer? 21 A No. It physically remained on my 22 desk. 223 1 Q Do you know whether any law 2 enforcement agencies or authorities searched 3 your computer hard drive? 4 A No, I don't know if they did or did 5 not. 6 Q Did Mr. Foster use a computer? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you ever see him using a laptop 9 computer? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you type things for him? 12 A I did. 13 Q How did he give you the document 14 such that you could type it? 15 A On dictaphone, using a dictaphone 16 on tape. 17 Q Do you take shorthand? 18 A No, I do not. 19 Q When you worked for Mr. Foster, 20 where were those dicta-tapes stored? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: I had some at my desk 224 1 in blank and he had some at his desk. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q But you didn't throw out the 4 dicta-tapes while you worked for him. 5 Correct? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Where did you store them at your 10 desk? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I probably stored 13 them in my drawer. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Those dicta-tapes at the time that 16 you left The White House to go back into 17 private practice, where were they kept at 18 that time? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know where 21 they were kept. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 225 1 Q Were they still in your drawer? 2 A No. 3 Q Had anyone taken custody of them? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Did anyone ever ask you to destroy 6 them? 7 A No. 8 Q Are you aware of anyone taking 9 those dicta-tapes out of your desk? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know what happened to those 12 dicta-tapes? 13 A No, I do not. 14 Q What did you do the last day in The 15 White House in terms of packing up your 16 things? 17 A There was very little to pack, you 18 know, a sweater, a purse. There was nothing 19 there that I kept that was personal. 20 Q Were those dicta-tapes already out 21 of your custody by then? 22 A Yes. I didn't bring them with me 226 1 to the Old Executive Office Building, if 2 indeed they were still there in the West 3 Wing. 4 Q On the day that you went from the 5 West Wing to the OEOB, were those dicta-tapes 6 left in the desk you were using, the one you 7 identified in Exhibit 7? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Do you know what happened to the 10 dicta-tapes after that? 11 A No, I don't. 12 Q Do you know what happened to the 13 dicta-tapes in Mr. Fosters office after you 14 left? 15 A No, I don't. 16 Q Did anyone ever ask you about these 17 dicta-tapes before? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. This whole 19 line is irrelevant. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A I believe as I've testified before, 227 1 Clifford Sloane asked for the dicta-tapes 2 after Mr. Foster died, and asked if I'd 3 review them and listen to them. 4 Q Who was Clifford Sloane? 5 A He was an assistant counsel in the 6 Counsel's office. 7 Q Did he tell you why he asked you to 8 do that? 9 A No, I don't recall that he did. 10 Q Did you listen to those 11 dicta-tapes? 12 A I did. 13 Q What were you listening for? 14 A I don't know what I was listening 15 for. He just asked me to make notes of what 16 I heard. 17 Q You made notes of what you heard? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Where were those notes kept? 20 A I have no idea what happened to 21 them. 22 Q Did you give them to Mr. Sloane? 228 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q Has any authority outside of The 3 White House ever asked you about these 4 dicta-tapes? Did the Independent Counsel ask 5 you about the dicta-tapes? 6 A I can't remember if they asked me 7 about them or not, or who did. 8 Q Did Senate investigators asked you 9 about the dicta-tapes? 10 A I can't recall if the Senate or the 11 Independent Counsel's office. 12 Q Do you remember whether listening 13 to dicta-tapes you ever heard anything about 14 Craig Livingstone? 15 A No. 16 Q Bernard Nussbaum? 17 A No. 18 Q Anthony Marceca? 19 A No. 20 Q You don't remember. 21 A No. I only remember one tape that 22 had any dictation in it. 229 1 Q What did that tape say? 2 A I don't remember what the nature 3 was. It was only somewhat comical, it was 4 somewhat garbled. 5 Q What about the tapes that he had 6 given you for correspondence, had you lost 7 those tapes at that point? 8 A No. I had tapes on my desk, and I 9 don't know what happened to his. 10 Q Now, in preparing correspondence 11 and other documents for Mr. Foster, did you 12 keep a backup chron file? 13 A I kept a chron file. 14 Q That was the hard copy of what you 15 were putting on the computer? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Where was that chron file kept? 18 A In my desk drawer. 19 Q What became of the chron file when 20 you transferred from the West Wing to the 21 OEOB? 22 A I have no idea what they did with 230 1 it. 2 Q Do you know if anyone ever took 3 custody of that chron file after Foster's 4 death? 5 A I have no knowledge of that. 6 Q When you began working for Foster 7 did you ever participate in any meetings of 8 that immediate office suite where office 9 procedures were discussed? 10 A No. 11 Q Were you taught to follow certain 12 office procedures? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Were there office procedures? 16 A In what context? 17 Q In any context. 18 A There was a procedure, of course: 19 how to activate the alarm located behind 20 Mr. Foster's office. There was procedures on 21 how to answer a telephone. Is that what you 22 mean? 231 1 Q How did you learn of those 2 procedures? Were they in writing? 3 A No, they were not. They were 4 verbalized. 5 Q Who imparted them to you 6 personally? 7 A Cynthia McManus. 8 Q What was her job? 9 A She was on detail working for 10 Mr. Nussbaum. 11 Q Now, when you started working at 12 The White House you did fill out some forms 13 at some point. Correct? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q What forms did you fill out? 16 A I filled out an application of 17 employment, a W-4, a W-2, Virginia state tax 18 form, retirement form. 19 Q Did you fill out any forms to be 20 able to get a security clearance? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you ever have a security 232 1 clearance? 2 A I certainly had a badge, a security 3 badge. 4 Q Were you ever interviewed by FBI 5 agents up to the time that you began to work 6 at The White House or thereafter? 7 A Regarding a security clearance? 8 Q Regarding your background. 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Did you fill out an SF-86 form? 11 A What is that? 12 Q That's a form that's used for 13 background security check. 14 A No. 15 Q Do you know Gary Aldrich, Special 16 Agent Gary Aldrich? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q Do you know Special Agent Dennis 19 Scullenbrini? 20 A No. 21 Q Were you ever interviewed by any 22 FBI agents about your past or your background 233 1 in conjunction with becoming employed at The 2 White House? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Do you know of others who were in 5 The White House? 6 A Who were interviewed by the agents? 7 Q Yes. 8 A I never discussed it with anyone. 9 Q You are aware that other people did 10 have security clearances in The White House. 11 Correct? 12 A I didn't ask who did and who 13 didn't. 14 Q But did you know that? 15 A I understood that there was a 16 process, yes. 17 Q But you never participated in that 18 process? 19 A Only in the process of being 20 fingerprinted. 21 Q That was it. 22 A Yes, sir. 234 1 Q Do you know of any of your friends 2 who have ever been questioned by the FBI? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 MR. MILLS: Objection, form, 5 relevance. 6 THE WITNESS: About? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q About you. 9 A About me? No. 10 Q Do you know of any of your friends 11 who have ever been questioned about you from 12 any source? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you come to learn what 17 Mr. Foster's duties and responsibilities 18 were? 19 A Not really in part, only mine. 20 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. 21 A Not really. Only mine. 22 Q "Only mine"? 235 1 A Correct. My responsibilities. 2 Q So you never knew anything about 3 what Mr. Foster was doing? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Object. 7 THE WITNESS: I didn't know what 8 his responsibilities were. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You didn't know what his 11 responsibilities were. 12 A That's correct. 13 Q He never discussed with you what he 14 was working on? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q He never discussed with you what 17 his duties and responsibilities were? 18 A No. 19 Q Given the fact that you were his 20 executive assistant, you found that peculiar, 21 didn't you? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 236 1 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Was it your practice up to that 5 point in time to work with someone who never 6 told you what he was doing? 7 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation 8 and form. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I have to state to 11 you I only worked for Mr. Foster for four 12 months. Prior to that I worked for 13 Mr. Touhey for seven years. So because of 14 that short period of time, I didn't feel it 15 was my place to ask him what he was working 16 on and in what context. I felt it was only 17 my responsibility to transcribe the tapes 18 that he gave me. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What were you able to glean from 21 the tapes that he gave you about what he was 22 working on? 237 1 MR. MILLS: Objection to relevance. 2 THE WITNESS: All I can remember at 3 this point in time is Judicial nominations. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You were aware that with regard to 6 Judicial nominations there was a clearance 7 process? 8 A No, I don't know that there was a 9 clearance process. 10 Q You are aware that background 11 security checks have to be performed for 12 Judicial nominations? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't aware of 15 that at that time. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did you later become aware of that? 18 A For Judicial, no, I never became 19 aware of that. 20 Q Do you know whether or not 21 Mr. Foster was working on other types of 22 nominations? 238 1 A No. I only am familiar with the 2 Judicial. 3 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster had 4 any role in holdover employees, the clearance 5 process for holdover employees from the Bush 6 Administration to the Clinton Administration? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster 11 played any role in political appointments 12 other than Judicial nominees? 13 A No. I was only aware of Judicial 14 nominees. 15 Q Do you remember the names of any 16 Judicial nominees? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Who? 19 A Steven Briar -- 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Wait before you 21 answer, please. I just need to consult with 22 counsel. 239 1 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a matter of 2 public record. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't know until I 4 find out. 5 (Witness conferred with counsel) 6 THE WITNESS: Going off video 7 record at 2:12. 8 (Recess) 9 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 10 record at 2:19. 11 THE WITNESS: Could I have the last 12 question repeated, please? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 14 (The reporter read the record as 15 requested.) 16 THE WITNESS: Steven Briar, Kimber 17 Wood, Lonnie Guanere, Ruth Beder Ginsburg. I 18 think that's all I can remember. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever see files come into 21 the office with regard to those people, or 22 any documents? 240 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I never saw files 3 or documents come into the office. 4 Mr. Foster did have three-ring binders in his 5 office regarding those nominations. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What was in the three-ring binders? 8 A They were nonsensitive information. 9 They were the names and their addresses and 10 the name of the children and their wives, or 11 their spouse's name. 12 Q You are aware that Mr. Foster got 13 information from the FBI with regard to those 14 Judicial nominees? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of 18 that. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You don't know of any information 21 ever coming from the FBI with regard to 22 Judicial nominees to The White House? 241 1 MR. MILLS: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you know of any information 5 coming from any government agency to The 6 White House with regard to Judicial nominees? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Did you ever discuss or overhear 9 any conversation while you were at The White 10 House about how Judicial nominees were 11 cleared in terms of their appointment? 12 A No. 13 Q Did anyone ever explain that to 14 you? 15 A No. 16 Q Were you aware at any time you 17 worked in The White House that Judicial 18 nominees had to have an FBI background check? 19 A No, I was not aware of that. 20 Q Were you aware that political 21 appointees had to have an FBI background 22 check? 242 1 A No. 2 Q Were you aware that employees of 3 The White House had to periodically have FBI 4 background checks? 5 A I was only aware of the fact, I 6 don't know how periodically, but a background 7 check had to be done. 8 Q How did you find that out? 9 A I was asked to fill out an SF-86. 10 Q At what point were you asked to 11 fill that out? 12 A I was reminded to do that after 13 Mr. Foster passed away. 14 Q Who reminded you to do that? 15 A Mr. Kennedy. 16 Q Up to that point in time no one had 17 ever mentioned that to you. 18 A They had mentioned it to me and I 19 knew that it was pending, but I just did not 20 have enough time to fill that out. 21 Q At the break did you discuss 22 SF-86's with your counsel or anybody else? 243 1 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's 2 calling for privileged information. You need 3 not answer that question. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask what was 5 discussed. I just asked whether SF-86's were 6 discussed. 7 MR. MILLS: The objection stands. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.* 9 Before the break I had asked you 10 about SF-86's. Correct? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I can't 12 remember. I thought it was just about the 13 Judicial nominations but, yes, you asked 14 about that. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You told me that you never 17 remembered any such form or discussion of it. 18 Correct? 19 MR. MILLS: Objection, 20 mischaracterization. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Correct? 244 1 A I'm sorry. I'd have to have that 2 re-read back to me, but -- 3 MR. MILLS: Do you want to have 4 those questions read back? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I really don't. 6 I think I understand what happened. 7 MR. MILLS: I object to that, move 8 to strike that from the record. That's 9 uncivil. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I think it's just 11 a fact. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q When you worked in that office with 14 Mr. Foster, did you come to learn what 15 Ms. Tripp was doing in that office? 16 Professionally. 17 A Yes. 18 Q What were her duties and 19 responsibilities? 20 A She was assisting Betsy Pond with 21 correspondence for Mr. Nussbaum. 22 Q Did you come to learn what 245 1 Mr. Castleton was doing? 2 A Yes. 3 Q What was that? 4 A He was receiving the mail everyday. 5 Q What did receiving the mail entail? 6 A He would open up all the mail that 7 was addressed to the Counsel's office, and 8 then distribute it appropriately, I would 9 imagine, to counsel who were working on 10 particular matters. 11 Q Did you come to know What Ms. Pond 12 was doing? 13 A Yes. 14 Q What was that? 15 A She prepared correspondence for 16 Mr. Nussbaum and answered his telephone lines 17 and helped with scheduling his appointments 18 and meetings. 19 Q Did she ever discuss with you the 20 nature of Mr. Nussbaum's work? 21 A No, she did not. 22 Q You can't remember one thing she 246 1 ever told you about that Nussbaum did? 2 A That he worked on? 3 Q Yes. 4 A No. 5 Q Were you able to glean from any 6 source what Mr. Nussbaum did when you worked 7 in that suite of offices? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: If you are asking me 10 that she would tell me directly what he was 11 working on, no. I assumed that he was 12 counsel to the President and offered advice 13 and counsel to the President. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q But beyond that general notion, did 16 you have any understanding of anything he did 17 specifically from any source, direct, 18 indirect or whatever? 19 A No. 20 Q Now, you say you prepared 21 correspondence with regard to Judicial 22 nominees for Mr. Foster. Correct? 247 1 A I don't think I said that. 2 Q If I'm wrong, correct me. 3 A No. I simply knew that he had 4 three-ring binders in his office regarding 5 Judicial nominations and that I did prepare 6 correspondence for him but I don't recall 7 that it was on those related matters. 8 Q Do you remember what the matters on 9 the correspondence were about? 10 A I don't. They were simply memos to 11 other assistant counsel. 12 Q When you worked in that suite of 13 offices do you remember ever having seen 14 anyone by the name of Maggie Williams come 15 into the office? 16 A Yes. 17 Q On how many occasions? 18 A Very infrequently. I would say no 19 more than a handful. 20 Q Do you know why she came into the 21 office? 22 A No, I don't. 248 1 Q You did however know that she was 2 an aide to Hillary Clinton. 3 A I did. 4 Q How did you learn that? 5 A I don't recall if I read it on a 6 memo or saw it listed in a phone book. 7 Q Do you remember anyone coming into 8 the office when you were down there in the 9 West Wing by the name of Catherine Cornelius? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Why did she come into the office? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q How many times did she come in? 14 A I believe I only saw her once. 15 Q Do you know where she worked? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Then how did you know it was 18 Catherine Cornelius? 19 A I believe that someone told me that 20 "That is Catherine Cornelius" when I asked, 21 "Who is that lady?" 22 Q Did they tell you what her job 249 1 title was or what she did? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you ever see someone by the 4 name of Harry Tomasson come into the office? 5 A Yes. 6 Q About how many times? 7 A I probably saw him only maybe two 8 or three times. 9 Q Did you know why he was in the 10 office? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q How did you know it was someone by 13 the name of Harry Tomasson? 14 A Again, I probably would have asked 15 someone, "Who is that gentleman?" 16 Q Who did you ask? 17 A I probably would have asked Betsy. 18 Q He had a beard? 19 A Yes, he did. 20 Q Betsy told you, "He's a famous 21 Hollywood producer"? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to form. 250 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know if she 2 told me that or not. I just remember her 3 telling me his name. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Was he wearing his sunglasses when 6 he came in? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you ever see anyone come into 11 the office by the name of David Watkins? 12 A Yes. 13 Q How many times did he come into the 14 office? 15 A He was a little bit more frequent. 16 I would say in my tenure there maybe a 17 guesstimate of six to ten times. 18 Q Do you know why he was coming into 19 the office? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q How do you know it was David 22 Watkins? 251 1 A Again, associating name and face 2 that someone had provided me. 3 Q Do you know what David Watkins did 4 at The White House? 5 A I recall perhaps he was Director of 6 Administration. 7 Q How did you find that out? 8 A Perhaps the phone book or a memo. 9 I'm not quite sure. 10 Q Did you see William Kennedy come 11 into the office when you worked in that suite 12 with Foster? 13 A Yes. 14 Q About how many times did you see 15 him come in? 16 A I saw him very frequently. He 17 attended staff meetings most every Monday 18 morning, or mostly every morning maybe, 19 at 9:00 o'clock. 20 Q Who was in attendance at those 21 staff meetings besides Bill Kennedy? 22 A Other assistant counsel. 252 1 Q Who were they? 2 A I don't know that they attended 3 every time, but if you want me just to list 4 you the name of the assistant counsel? 5 Q Yes. 6 A Steven Neuwirth, Clifford Sloane, a 7 gentleman by the name of Frank Sokol but I'm 8 not sure if he was an assistant counsel. 9 I'm just really trying to remember 10 people who worked within the office. Cheryl 11 Mills. That's all that comes to mind at the 12 moment. 13 Q Now, do you remember an occasion 14 when Catherine Cornelius, Harry Tomasson, 15 Bill Kennedy, David Watkins and Maggie 16 Williams all had a meeting in your office? 17 A In my office? 18 Q You remember that, don't you? 19 A In my office? 20 Q Yes, with Foster. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No one held meetings 253 1 in my office because it was a very public 2 place. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q I don't mean your office. I mean 5 in that suite. 6 A I don't know that they held 7 meetings and I don't know what they spoke 8 about, so. 9 Q You remember, don't you, at least 10 one occasion when those persons, Maggie 11 Williams, Bill Kennedy, Catherine Cornelius, 12 Harry Tomasson, Dave Watkins, all met in Bill 13 Foster's office? 14 A I only remember Catherine Cornelius 15 and Mr. Tomasson coming in once. 16 Q When they went into Vince Foster's 17 office, do you remember when that was? 18 A Not in time, no, I don't. 19 Q When they went into the office they 20 closed the door? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if 254 1 they closed the door or not. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Around that time period, there was 4 discussion in The White House about the 5 Travel Office. Correct? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: There or perhaps with 8 other people but not with myself or others. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q But you were aware of an issue 11 involving the Travel Office around the time 12 that you saw Mr. Tomasson and Mr. Watkins in 13 the office? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 15 mischaracterization. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Right? 20 A I don't know when I learned about 21 the Travel Office. I don't know if it was at 22 that time when they were walking in or months 255 1 later. 2 Q Did you subsequently come to learn 3 that they were meeting about the Travel 4 Office in Vince Foster's office? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not 7 learn about that. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask you a 9 question, Ms. Shapiro? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: What is it about my 12 last question that was improper as to form? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: If you want the 14 witness to leave and read back the question, 15 I'll tell you. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. Please leave. 17 MR. MILLS: I don't want the 18 deposition to be held up. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I just want to 20 know for the record. 21 MR. MILLS: This is still on the 22 record. 256 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you read back the 3 last question. 4 (The reporter read the record as 5 requested.) 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, there are 7 several objectionable things. One, it's 8 vague because you said that she was meeting 9 with David Watkins when she never identified 10 David Watkins, she identified Cornelius and 11 Tomasson. 12 That is one basis that the form of 13 the question is objectionable. She also 14 didn't testify that they were in Vince 15 Foster's office. So the form is in several 16 respects an objectionable question. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just curious why 18 anytime I ask a question of any import I get 19 all these flurry of objections. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I don't think I 21 object when you ask a proper question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Am I asking defective 257 1 questions every time I ask an important 2 question? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Most questions are 4 defective in some respect. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Then why don't you 6 object to all of them? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: I could, but why 8 clutter the record. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: You just want to 10 object when it's an important question. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: No, I want to object 12 when I spot a severely defective question. I 13 think that's my right to object to the form 14 of the question. I think that's the way 15 you've asked me to object. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for the record, 17 it's our position that this has happened with 18 such frequency when there are important 19 questions that I can only assume that it's 20 one way of trying to communicate with the 21 witness. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I'm entitled to 258 1 object. Can I just say, also, Mr. Klayman, 2 that if you look at your own objections, you 3 might learn something. 4 MR. MILLS: Can I understand why 5 this is an important question? This has 6 nothing to do with files, FBI files. I just 7 don't get that connection why. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think you 9 need that connection. So let's bring the 10 witness back in. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q This meeting that we just talked 13 about with Foster and Tomasson, who else was 14 present? 15 A I have no idea. 16 Q We just talked, this meeting that 17 we just identified. I just want to clear 18 that up for the record. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know that a 21 meeting occurred. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 259 1 Q You remember that Harry Tomasson 2 and Catherine Cornelius went into Foster's 3 office on at least one occasion? 4 A No. I remember seeing them on one 5 occasion together. But I do not remember if 6 they went into his office or went into 7 Mr. Nussbaum's office. 8 Q Were there others present at the 9 time? 10 A I do not know. I only remember 11 those two individuals. 12 Q Is it possible Mr. Kennedy was 13 there? 14 A It is possible, but I don't recall. 15 Q Is it possible that Ms. Williams 16 was there? 17 A It is possible, but I don't recall. 18 Q Is it possible that Mr. Watkins was 19 there? 20 A It is possible. 21 Q Now, do you remember an occasion 22 where at least Harry Tomasson and Catherine 260 1 Cornelius were seen together with Vince 2 Foster? 3 A I remember Ms. Cornelius and 4 Mr. Tomasson coming into the office and 5 standing there in our outer offices, but 6 where they went or who they met with I have 7 no recollection what occurred after that. 8 Q Do you have any recollection of 9 when you saw those two people in the office, 10 Tomasson and Cornelius, going into 11 Mr. Foster's office with Linda Tripp and 12 looking at some photographs there? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you have any recollection of 16 that? 17 A No, sir, I do not. 18 Q That doesn't mean it didn't happen, 19 you just don't remember. 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Do you have any recollection of 22 going into that office and observing a file 261 1 labeled "Dale" on Foster's desk? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q So you don't know one way or the 4 other whether that happened, you just don't 5 remember? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 8 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I didn't 9 observe what was on Mr. Foster's desk. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know for a fact that you 12 ever walked into Foster's office with Linda 13 Tripp and saw files on his desk? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you remember anything to that 18 effect? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A Do I remember walking into Vince's 262 1 office with Linda Foster -- I mean Linda 2 Tripp? 3 Q Yes. 4 A No, I do not. 5 Q So you don't remember one way or 6 the other. You may have, but you don't 7 remember. 8 A I do not remember walking into 9 Vince Foster's office with Linda Tripp. 10 Q Are you saying you never did that? 11 A I never walked into Vince's office 12 with Linda Tripp. 13 Q Period. 14 A Period. 15 Q You're certain you never went into 16 Vince Foster's office with Linda Tripp. 17 A I'm certain. 18 Q Are you certain that Linda Tripp 19 was never in Vince Foster's office? 20 A No, I'm not as certain about that. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 263 1 Q Are you certain Vince Foster never 2 had a file on his desk labeled "Dale"? 3 A I don't know what Mr. Foster had on 4 his desk. 5 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster ever 6 had in his office files related to the Travel 7 Office employees? 8 A No, I do not know if he did or did 9 not. 10 Q Do you know whether or not 11 Mr. Foster ever had in his office files in a 12 Manila folder? 13 A Of any kind? 14 Q Yeah. 15 A I know that he had Manila folders 16 in his office. 17 Q Do you know what was in the Manila 18 folders? 19 A No, I don't. 20 Q Do you know where the Manila 21 folders came from? 22 A I gave them to him. 264 1 Q Where did you get the Manila 2 folders? 3 A From the supply office. 4 Q I thought you just told me you 5 didn't know where they came from. 6 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? 7 Q Yeah. First you tell me you don't 8 know where they came from and then you tell 9 me you gave them to him. Which was it? 10 A Is that what I stated? 11 Q Yeah. 12 MR. MILLS: Objection. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Which is it? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. Off 17 the record. 18 THE WITNESS: I received Manila 19 folders from the supply office and I gave 20 them to him. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did he tell you why he was asking 265 1 for Manila folders? 2 A He did not. 3 Q Did you ever give him Manila 4 folders with documents in the Manila folders? 5 A No. 6 Q But you did see Manila folders in 7 his office that had documents in them. 8 A There were Manila folders in his 9 office, that's correct. 10 Q With documents in them. 11 A That I do not know. 12 Q So was it Mr. Foster's practice to 13 have empty Manila folders in his office? 14 A I don't know. I didn't look inside 15 of them. I gave them to him and he placed 16 them in is desk drawer. 17 Q What I'm asking you as his 18 executive assistant is did you ever see 19 Manila folders that contained documents in 20 his office? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 22 answered. 266 1 THE WITNESS: I did not look into 2 the folders. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Well, you don't have to look in the 5 folders to see that there are documents in 6 the folders. Correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Did you ever see folders that 9 appeared on the side as if they had documents 10 in them? 11 A I didn't notice. 12 Q How do you explain that you were 13 his executive assistant and didn't even know 14 what was in his Manila folders? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not an intrusive 17 or evasive person. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q But you were aware that you would 20 give these Manila folders to Foster and he 21 would put things in the Manila folders. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 267 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know what he 2 did with the Manila folders. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did he ever tell you what he was 5 going to do with them? 6 A No. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 8 answered. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you ever give Mr. Foster 11 anything in a grayish-brown envelope? 12 A I can't recall if I did or did not, 13 in a grayish-brown envelope. 14 Q Did you ever give him anything in a 15 grayish-brown envelope that said "For Your 16 Eyes Only"? 17 A I might have given him gold-colored 18 Craft envelopes that said for his eyes only. 19 Q Where did those envelopes come 20 from? 21 A I don't remember who they came 22 from. 268 1 Q Do you remember what office they 2 came from? 3 A No, I don't. 4 Q Do you remember how they got to the 5 office? 6 A They arrived via our mail messenger 7 service. 8 Q Do you remember what mail messenger 9 service? 10 A It was within The White House. 11 Q Do you know what office it came 12 from? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q How did you describe them? 15 A They're gold-colored, Craft-colored 16 envelopes. 17 Q Did you ever ask him what was in 18 those envelopes? 19 A Ever ask Mr. Foster. 20 Q Yes. 21 A No. 22 Q Did you ever look in them? 269 1 A No. 2 Q Were they labeled Confidential? 3 A There was usually some label on the 4 outside, Confidential or Eyes Only, Eyes 5 Only. 6 Q So during the time that you worked 7 there up to today you don't have a clue what 8 those gold-colored Craft envelopes were 9 about? 10 A That were delivered to him. 11 Q Yes. 12 A No. 13 Q You never asked him. 14 A No. 15 Q Did you do any filing for 16 Mr. Foster? 17 A I did. 18 Q What did you file? 19 A Whatever he gave me to file on 20 various subjects. 21 Q What was that? 22 A Specifics, information regarding 270 1 the President's mother, regarding the 2 possibility of a personal residence. 3 Q Anything else? 4 A I'm sure there were a lot of 5 things. I just do not remember at this time. 6 Q A personal residence for who? 7 A The President. 8 Q What was that about? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 11 THE WITNESS: He had no personal 12 residence at the time and there were a couple 13 of times where folks would send in brochures 14 and information regarding homes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Homes that they were going to give 17 the President? 18 A I don't think so. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I think the 21 possibility of homes that they might purchase 22 to have a residence. 271 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Where did you put the documents 3 that Mr. Foster asked you to file? 4 A Into the file drawers. 5 Q Which file drawers? 6 A Mostly in the outer offices where I 7 was located. 8 Q Can you show us where those file 9 drawers were located? You can draw this on 10 Exhibit 7. 11 MR. MILLS: Maybe we should make a 12 copy and call it Exhibit 8 so we can make 13 more copies of that. It's up to you. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: That's all right. 15 You can draw on 7. 16 THE WITNESS: May I? 17 MR. MILLS: Sure. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q So you put the file cabinets right 20 above where you sat, and there were four of 21 them? 22 A There were two divided into four in 272 1 front of my desk. 2 Q What generically, what kinds of 3 files did you have in there? 4 A Nonsensitive matters, of course, 5 Mrs., I don't recall the President's mother's 6 last name, regarding his mother and breast 7 cancer awareness and I don't remember the 8 rest of the titles of the files. 9 Q I take it you created indices of 10 Mr. Foster's files? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q You did that on your computer? 13 A Yes. 14 Q You stored it on your computer. 15 A Yes. 16 Q You kept a hard copy of those 17 indices of the files? 18 A There was a hard copy, yes. 19 Q When you transferred from the West 20 Wing to the OEOB what happened to those 21 indices? 22 A I have no idea. 273 1 Q Do you know what happened to those 2 indices after Foster died? 3 A No. They remained on the computer, 4 I assumed. 5 Q Did you have a hard copy of them? 6 A Those that were in the file drawers 7 at the time. 8 Q What file drawers were they in? 9 A As diagramed and then the file 10 drawers that were in his office. 11 Q Do you know whether or not those 12 indices disappeared after Foster died? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: As in the 15 physical copies? I don't recall that they 16 did. I believe they still might have been in 17 the front of those drawers in the office that 18 I was in. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Do you know whether anyone searched 21 your computer for those indices after 22 Mr. Foster died? 274 1 A No, I don't know. 2 Q Did you ever create in those 3 indices anything labeled "Dale"? 4 A Not that I remember. 5 Q "Travel Office"? 6 A No. 7 Q You don't remember that either? 8 A Don't remember "Travel Office," no. 9 Q So you don't remember one way or 10 the other. 11 A No, I don't. 12 Q Did there come a point in time when 13 you learned that the Travel Office employees 14 were fired? 15 A Yes. 16 Q How did you learn about that? 17 A I believe someone probably told me 18 about that. 19 Q Who told you about that? 20 A I don't remember who. 21 Q What did you understand to have 22 occurred with regard to the firing of the 275 1 Travel Office? 2 A Exactly that, employees in the 3 Travel Office were fired. 4 Q What else did you learn about that 5 incident? 6 A Nothing. 7 Q You had heard that Mrs. Clinton was 8 the one who fired the Travel Office people? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Who was making that 15 objection? It seemed like everybody was. 16 MR. MILLS: I made that objection. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I just don't want to 18 leave anybody out. 19 MR. MAZUR: I thought it was a fine 20 question. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. It was in 22 perfect unison. 276 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q During the time that you worked in 3 The White House you saw memoranda, did you 4 not, that made reference to the Travel 5 Office? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 8 THE WITNESS: At this time I cannot 9 remember if I did or did not. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you ever see any document that 12 made reference to the Travel Office? 13 A I'm sorry, I cannot remember. It's 14 just so long ago. 15 Q So you can't say one way or the 16 other? 17 A No, I can't, no. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever see a document from 21 Mrs. Clinton which made reference to firing 22 the Travel Office? 277 1 A No, I didn't. 2 Q That you're sure of. 3 A I think I would have remembered 4 something like that. 5 Q Well, you just told me you couldn't 6 remember whether you saw any document with 7 the Travel Office on it. 8 MR. MILLS: Objection, 9 argumentative. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How do you reconcile the two 12 statements? 13 A You know, I don't know. 14 Q You can't reconcile it because you 15 don't want to say anything negative about 16 Mrs. Clinton. Correct? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection, form, 18 harassment. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Correct? 22 A Sir, I never say anything truly 278 1 negative about anyone. 2 Q In fact, you are worried, aren't 3 you, that if you say something that 4 implicates Mrs. Clinton or any high level 5 Clinton appointee that you may wind out being 6 retaliated against? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 8 of the question. It's harassing without any 9 factual basis and I ask Mr. Klayman to 10 withdraw it. 11 MR. MILLS: I join in those 12 objections. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Absolutely not. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Answer the question. 17 A No, I'm not worried about anything. 18 Q Did you ever see a document that 19 said, "We need these people out. We need our 20 people in. HRC"? 21 A No. 22 Q You're absolutely certain. 279 1 A Absolutely certain. 2 Q You have read Linda Tripp's 3 testimony that she saw a memorandum on your 4 desk with reference to the Travel Office that 5 said, "We need these people out. We need our 6 people in. HRC." Are you calling Ms. Tripp 7 a liar? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 10 form. Mischaracterizes. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 12 of the question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Answer the question. 15 MR. MILLS: That's harassing. 16 THE WITNESS: Sir, I did not 17 read 100 percent of Ms. Tripp's testimony. 18 So I did not read that. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Well, let's assume that's her 21 testimony. 22 MR. MILLS: Objection. 280 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Is Ms. Tripp a liar? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I never saw a memo 5 regarding that. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So Ms. Tripp's a liar? 8 A I don't know what she saw. I can't 9 speak for her. 10 Q Now, you are aware that Mr. Foster 11 did work on the Travel Office matter? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 14 answered. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't remember most 16 of what he worked on. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You do remember that he did work on 19 Travel Office matters? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Not as of today, no, 22 I don't recall. 281 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So your mind has gone blank on 3 that? 4 A Very much so. 5 Q Can you rule out knowing that at 6 one time? 7 A No. I suppose I could not rule it 8 out. 9 Q Now, did there come a point in time 10 when you learned that Mr. Foster used the 11 safe in Mr. Nussbaum's office? 12 A I don't know that he ever used the 13 safe in Mr. Nussbaum's office. 14 Q Did you know that there was a safe 15 in Mr. Nussbaum's office? 16 A Yes. 17 Q How did you learn that? 18 A Because I used the safe. 19 Q What did you use the safe for? 20 A To open and close and store a 21 couple of binders and a couple of folders. 22 Q Who told you to use the safe? 282 1 A Mr. Foster. 2 Q What did he tell you to use the 3 safe for? 4 A Binders from the National Security 5 Council. 6 Q What did he tell you that he had 7 binders for the National Security Council 8 for? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 10 relevancy. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q In other words, did he tell you why 13 he had access binders from the National 14 Security Council? 15 A No, he did not. 16 Q What did he tell you to do, if 17 anything? 18 A When I received them if he were not 19 in the office to receive them himself, to 20 place them in the safe. 21 Q Did he ever tell you to place 22 anything else in the safe? 283 1 A No. 2 Q Did anyone ever tell you to place 3 anything else in the safe? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you ever place anything else in 6 the safe? 7 A I did not place in the safe; 8 Mr. Nussbaum placed something in the safe. 9 Q Who had access to the safe? 10 A I did and Betsy Pond. 11 Q Mr. Nussbaum? 12 A No, not that I'm aware of. 13 Q Did only you and Betsy Pond have 14 access to that safe? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did Mr. Marceca have access to the 17 safe? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Did you know an Anthony Marceca? 20 A No. 21 Q Did Linda Tripp have access to the 22 safe? 284 1 A No. 2 Q How did you have access to the 3 safe? 4 A I had access via the combination. 5 Q Did you ever see Anthony Marceca 6 open the safe? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know who Anthony Marceca is? 9 A No. 10 Q Who gave you the combination? 11 A Cynthia McManus. 12 Q So she had access to the safe. 13 A That's correct. 14 Q So now it's you, Betsy Pond and 15 Cynthia McManus. 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Why did Ms. Pond have access to the 18 safe? 19 A In case I wasn't there when it was 20 needed to be opened. 21 Q Why did Ms. McManus have access to 22 the safe? 285 1 A Because she arrived before I did. 2 Q Arrived doing what? 3 A Working for Mr. Nussbaum. 4 Q Where is Cynthia McManus today? 5 A I have no idea. 6 Q Have you had contact with her since 7 you've left The White House? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you know of anybody who has? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know Billy Dale? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you know of him? 14 A No, I can't -- I've heard the name 15 but I can't associate who he is or where he 16 worked. 17 Q Did you ever see him? 18 A No. I don't know what he looks 19 like. 20 Q You do know that he was at one time 21 head of the Travel Office? 22 A No, I don't know that. 286 1 Q Did you ever know a Barney 2 Brasseux? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you ever know anybody at the 5 Travel Office? 6 A Not that I can recall. 7 Q Now, your testimony is you only 8 went into the safe to put National Security 9 materials in there. Correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q Do you know specifically what 12 Mr. Nussbaum ever put in the safe? 13 A He placed an envelope in the safe. 14 Q When did he place an envelope in 15 the safe? 16 A Sometime after July 20th. 17 Q Sometime after Vince Foster died. 18 A That's correct. 19 Q How did you come to learn that he 20 placed an envelope in the safe? 21 A Betsy asked me to open up the safe 22 so that an envelope could be placed in there. 287 1 Q How big was the envelope? 2 A It was a regular No. 10 size. 3 Q What color was it? 4 A It was either white or cream. I 5 can't remember which color. 6 Q Manila colored? 7 A It was pale. 8 Q Was that envelope labeled? 9 A I can't remember at this time. I 10 want to say that it was stamped or embossed 11 in the upper left-hand corner with "The White 12 House" but I don't remember if there was any 13 handwriting on the front. 14 Q Did it contain any notations, 15 Confidential, For Your Eyes Only, anything? 16 A Not on the outside that I can 17 recall. 18 Q Do you know where that envelope 19 came from? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Only that Betsy gave it to you and 22 told you to put it in the safe? 288 1 A No. I opened the safe for Betsy 2 and she placed it in there. 3 Q She said she had gotten that from 4 Bernie Nussbaum? 5 A I don't recall. But she said she 6 received it from Bernie, but she asked me to 7 open the safe so she could put an envelope of 8 Bernie's in there. 9 Q Did you ask what this was all 10 about? 11 A No, I did not. 12 Q Do you know of anyone who asked 13 what this was all about? 14 A I have no idea what people would 15 ask. 16 Q Do you know of anything else that 17 Mr. Nussbaum put in that safe? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: No. That's the only 21 article that I know of during my employment. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 289 1 Q Other than National Security files 2 and this envelope, there were other things in 3 that safe, correct, from time to time when 4 you opened it? 5 A Yes. 6 Q You did see Manila folders in that 7 safe? 8 A No. I retract that. They were 9 envelopes. 10 Q You saw Manila envelopes? 11 A No, they were Goldcraft-colored 12 envelopes. 13 Q The Goldcraft-colored envelopes had 14 designations on them Confidential, For Your 15 Eyes Only? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Something like that? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall if 22 that was written on the outside or not. I 290 1 was only told that they were sensitive 2 documents. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Who told you that? 5 A Mr. Foster. 6 Q Did he tell you why they were 7 sensitive? 8 A He did not. 9 Q Did you come to learn why they were 10 sensitive? 11 A No. 12 Q Describe these envelopes for me. 13 Were they closed? 14 A They were eight and a half by 15 eleven, and one was not sealed and I do not 16 recall if the other was sealed. 17 Q You only saw two envelopes? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q You did see an envelope labeled 20 "Dale," didn't you, at one time? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 291 1 of the question. 2 MR. MILLS: Join in that objection. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you leave the 5 room again just for a second? 6 (Pause) 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gaffney, what is 8 wrong with that question? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to 10 discuss my objections with you, Mr. Klayman. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to 12 help the court ferret their way through this. 13 See, I see an uncanny coincidence of 14 objecting like that. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, do what you 16 need to do, Mr. Klayman. I'm entitled to 17 make my objections under the Federal rules. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: You're not entitled 19 to make frivolous ones. I wanted to find out 20 why that was objectionable. Certify it. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to 22 discuss my objections with you. 292 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.* 2 You can bring her back. 3 You saw an envelope in that safe 4 labeled Emory? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I did not. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You in fact saw more than two 12 envelopes in that safe, didn't you? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 16 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: My counter objection 18 to these objections. Certify it.* 19 THE WITNESS: I did. The two NSC 20 binders. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q On at least one occasion you went 293 1 into that safe in the presence of Linda 2 Tripp. Correct? 3 A I do not remember -- 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 5 form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You don't remember one way or the 8 other? 9 A No. Let me finish please. I do 10 not remember ever opening the safe in Linda 11 Tripp's presence. 12 Q So you're saying unequivocally you 13 never did that or you don't remember? 14 A Unequivocally, I never opened that 15 safe in her presence. 16 Q Why is it you have such a clear 17 memory of that but not such a clear memory of 18 other things? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MR. MILLS: Objection. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Can you explain that? 294 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I can. Linda Tripp 3 had only been in our office a very short 4 period of time. I had no idea what her 5 security clearance was. 6 It was my understanding along with 7 Betsy that it was only Betsy and myself who 8 would open the safe and retrieve or take 9 documents out of it. So I was not 10 comfortable in anyone else being around. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But you didn't have a security 13 clearance either, did you? 14 A I have no idea what they did with 15 my fingerprints or what they did without the 16 form. 17 Q You don't know whether Betsy had a 18 security clearance, do you? 19 A No, I never asked. It's not my 20 business. 21 Q So you made it a special point to 22 exclude Linda Tripp not knowing whether Betsy 295 1 Pond had a security clearance either. Is 2 that what you are telling me? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation. 4 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are you telling me that even on one 7 occasion you didn't open the safe to let 8 Linda Tripp put anything in that safe? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 11 answered. 12 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm telling you 14 that. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Now, at some point in time Linda 17 Tripp started working in that office. 18 Correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q She was the executive assistant to 21 Bernie Nussbaum. Correct? 22 A That was her title. 296 1 Q As executive assistant to Bernard 2 Nussbaum, she worked for somebody who was 3 superior in rank to the person you worked 4 for, Mr. Foster. Correct? 5 A I believe you could say that. 6 Q You did perform work or you did do 7 things at the request of Mr. Nussbaum from 8 time to time, didn't you? 9 A Things, how do you define "things"? 10 Q Anything. There were requests made 11 by Mr. Nussbaum to do things. Correct? 12 A Of course. 13 Q As Mr. Nussbaum's executive 14 assistant if Ms. Tripp came to you and said, 15 "I'd like you to do this," you wouldn't 16 refuse, would you? 17 A Let me tell you that Linda worked 18 for Betsy Pond. 19 Q It calls for a yes or no. 20 MR. MILLS: No. No. Let the 21 witness answer the question please, 22 Mr. Klayman. Go ahead. 297 1 THE WITNESS: Linda Tripp arrived a 2 very short time before Mr. Foster died. I 3 worked with Betsy obviously much longer than 4 with Linda Tripp. Linda Tripp was on a 5 volunteer status or a detailed status from 6 the Correspondence Unit. 7 I had no idea, I'd never met Linda, 8 I didn't know her background, but I'd worked 9 with Betsy a little bit longer. So only 10 based on that there was some camandery on 11 what our procedures would be. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So when handling classified 14 materials your criteria was commandery? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Argumentative. 18 THE WITNESS: No. My criteria was 19 that Linda worked for Betsy. Linda assisted 20 Betsy in whatever Betsy needed for her to do. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q But Linda ultimately worked for 298 1 Bernard Nussbaum. Correct? 2 A I have no idea. 3 Q You just testified that you knew 4 that Linda was the executive assistant to 5 Bernard Nussbaum. 6 A No. I stated that was her title. 7 Q You discounted her title? 8 A No, I don't discount her title. 9 Everyone must have one. But she worked for 10 Mr. Nussbaum through Betsy. 11 Q Does that mean she didn't work for 12 Mr. Nussbaum? 13 A I'm not saying that. 14 Q Are you aware that Ms. Tripp 15 testified when she was deposed in this case 16 that you opened up the safe in her presence? 17 A I am. 18 Q Are you calling Ms. Tripp a liar? 19 MR. MILLS: Objection. It's 20 arguing with the witness. 21 THE WITNESS: Sir, I never call 22 anyone a liar. But I never opened the safe 299 1 for Linda Tripp. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Are you saying Ms. Tripp's lying? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 5 answered. The witness has already answered 6 that. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You have to answer. 9 A I did answer. 10 Q Are you calling -- 11 A I call no one a liar. 12 Q Are you saying she's lying? 13 A I am not saying that she is lying. 14 Q As part of your duties and 15 responsibilities in working for Vince Foster, 16 you kept his office neat and clean, didn't 17 you? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q Mr. Foster was a very neat and 20 clean person. Correct? 21 A As it would appear topically, yes. 22 Q As what? 300 1 A As it would appear topically, yes. 2 Q What does topically mean? 3 A He didn't have papers and documents 4 or, you know, McDonald's wrappers strewn all 5 over the floor. 6 Q He had very infrequently documents 7 on his desk. Correct? 8 A I did not look on his desk. 9 Q You never glanced at his desk? 10 A No. 11 Q Never glanced in the direction of 12 his desk? 13 A Perhaps in the direction but not 14 towards his desk. 15 Q He wasn't the kind of person that 16 had a lot of clutter in his office. Correct? 17 A There was no clutter on his chairs 18 or his table, by his chairs or on his floor, 19 no. 20 Q There was no clutter on the top of 21 his desk, generally. 22 A I don't know if you would consider 301 1 it clutter or not, but there were, there was 2 something on his desk. 3 Q Well, you've worked for a lot of 4 lawyers, haven't you? 5 A A few. 6 Q Most of them are pretty sloppy, 7 aren't they? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 9 form. 10 MR. MILLS: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: Are you asking for my 12 opinion? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Yeah. 15 A About lawyers? 16 Q Yeah. 17 A No, I don't think they are sloppy. 18 Q They have a lot of paper on their 19 desk? 20 A They have a lot of stacks on their 21 desk, yes. 22 Q Right. Right. Foster wasn't that 302 1 kind of lawyer. 2 A What kind of lawyer? 3 Q That had a lot of stacks and things 4 laying around. 5 A I don't know how many stacks he 6 had, but he certainly had stacks on his desk. 7 Q Stacks of what? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Don't have a clue. 10 A No. Why would I? 11 Q Because you worked for him. 12 MR. MILLS: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: What does that mean, 14 sir? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You are aware that Ms. Tripp 17 testified that there was a meeting in Vince 18 Foster's office with Maggie Williams, Bill 19 Kennedy, Catherine Cornelius, Harry Tomasson, 20 Dave Watkins and Vince Foster; you're aware 21 of that, aren't you? 22 A I believe I read that in her 303 1 testimony. 2 Q You're aware that she testified 3 that after that meeting you and her went into 4 that office to look at some photographs. 5 A I read that as well. 6 Q You're aware that when she was in 7 that office she saw sitting there in Foster's 8 desk a file labeled "Dale." Correct? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 10 form. 11 THE WITNESS: I read that 12 testimony, yes. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You are aware that around that file 15 were other files in a Redweld that looked 16 similar. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: Is that what she 20 testified to? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Well I'm asking you, are you aware 304 1 of that? 2 A I don't remember reading that. 3 Q You're aware that she testified 4 that she'd never seen files like that before? 5 A I can't recall if I read that or 6 not. 7 Q Is Ms. Tripp lying about that? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form, 10 compound. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Is it your view she's lying about 13 that? 14 A Lying about what, sir? 15 Q What I just said to you. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, which was? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q The whole recitation of what she 21 claims she observed when she walked into 22 Vince Foster's office after this meeting. 305 1 A Sir, I don't know what she 2 observed. 3 Q Is she lying? 4 A I have no idea. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 6 answered. Badgering the witness. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, she also said that she asked 9 you what the subject of the meeting was and 10 you wrote down on a pad "Travel Office 11 meeting." Do you remember that? 12 A Do I remember writing that? 13 Q No. Do you remember her testifying 14 to that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is Ms. Tripp a liar about that? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Sir, I don't know 19 about a Travel Office meeting, nor did my 20 boss ever tell me what his meetings were 21 about. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 306 1 Q Are you calling Ms. Tripp a liar? 2 A Sir, I never call anyone a liar. 3 Q Is she lying? 4 A I have no idea. 5 Q Now, you are aware that Ms. Tripp 6 also testified that you told her of David 7 Watkins' involvement in the Travel Office 8 matter. Are you aware of that? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I do not remember 12 reviewing that in her testimony if she did. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Let's show that to you. 15 A Okay. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, can I 17 ask the witness to leave the room for one 18 minute? Because I want to return to the 19 matter you and I were discussing while she 20 was out of the room. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll do it on a 22 break? 307 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I want it on the 2 record. Do you want to do it afterward? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 4 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 8 5 was marked for identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Turn to Page 55 of that transcript. 8 Do you see, I want to turn your attention to 9 Line 14 through 17 on Page 54 and 1 10 through 12 on 55. Let me read this to you. 11 "What were Mr. Watkins' job title 12 and responsibilities?" 13 Mr. Klayman, "Right." 14 The Witness, "I don't remember 15 right now. Director of Administration maybe 16 or White House something or other. I don't 17 know. It was sort of an operations manager 18 as I understood it. He had a far more 19 dignified title." 20 Question, "you later became aware 21 that he had involvement in the Travel 22 Office?" 308 1 Ms. Shapiro, "Objection." 2 Mr. Klayman, "Just for 3 identification." 4 Answer, "Yes." 5 "How did he become aware of that?" 6 Ms. Shapiro, "Same objection." 7 Question, "You Can respond." 8 "Again, through several sources, Catherine 9 Cornelius, Clarissa Cerda, Deb Gorham, 10 personal observations." 11 Are you telling me that Ms. Tripp 12 is lying, that you didn't tell her about 13 Mr. Watkins' involvement in the Travel 14 Office? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: Sir, I had no 18 knowledge Mr. Watkins' was involved in the 19 Travel Office. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Are you calling Ms. Tripp a liar? 22 MR. MILLS: Objection. This is 309 1 repetitive and harassing. 2 THE WITNESS: Sir, I never call 3 anyone a liar. Perhaps she's disillusioned 4 or is uncertain at that time that I spoke 5 with her about that, but I did not. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Are you saying she's lying? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 9 answered. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Now, Ms. Tripp also says that you 12 referenced the Billy Dale file that she says 13 she saw on Foster's desk after an occasion 14 when you went in there and saw that file when 15 you were looking at photographs. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Is she lying about that, too? 19 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 20 answered, several times. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 310 1 Q You can respond. 2 A Sir, I don't know who Billy Dale 3 is, and I do not know what files if any were 4 on Mr. Foster's desk. 5 Q Are you saying that Ms. Tripp is 6 not telling the truth? 7 MR. MILLS: Objection. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Sir, I never call 10 anyone a liar. Perhaps she's wrong. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Some people do lie, don't they? 13 A Absolutely. 14 Q In fact some people deserve the 15 title of liar, don't they? 16 A Some are more compulsive than 17 others. 18 Q Right. So you are saying that you 19 just don't recognize the concept of lying? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection. This is 21 arguing with the witness, badgering the 22 witness. It's unnecessary. 311 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Is that your point of view? 3 A No, sir, it's not. 4 Q So consequently, the word does 5 exist in the English language and some people 6 lie. Correct? 7 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form. 8 Continuing objection to this line of 9 questioning. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Correct? 12 A Sir, some people lie and some 13 people are uncertain about the truth, and 14 some people make mistakes. 15 Q You sometimes are uncertain about 16 the truth as a human being. Correct? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: About whose truth? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q About any truth. 22 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 312 1 of the question. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Correct? 4 A Sir, I can only tell you what the 5 truth is for me. 6 Q Sometimes you're mistaken. 7 Correct? 8 A I do make mistakes. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll take a little 10 break. 11 MR. MILLS: How long of a break are 12 we going to take? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gaffney wants to 14 say something. Let's have the witness leave. 15 MR. MILLS: This is not a break, 16 this is still on the record. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Why don't we do this 18 on the record. Have the witness leave and 19 you do this on the record. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Do whatever you want 21 to say on the record. 22 THE WITNESS: Just to let you know, 313 1 we've got three minutes on this tape. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: It shouldn't take 3 that long. Mr. Klayman, previously you asked 4 the witness to leave the room and you asked 5 for an explanation, the basis for an 6 objection to form I made to a question. 7 I believe the question was to the 8 effect "isn't it true that you saw a file 9 with the name 'Dale' on it in the safe." I 10 believe that was the gist of that. 11 My objection is on the ground that 12 that's a leading question, improper objection 13 to form. I agree with your statement earlier 14 this week that the statement of objection to 15 form is all you need to say and 16 characterizing the question. 17 However, I'm happy to give you that 18 basis for the objection. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: She worked for The 20 White House, didn't she? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to 22 answer questions. 314 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying I 2 can't ask leading questions to an adverse 3 question? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm saying I'm going 5 to object to the form of any leading question 6 I feel like making an objection to. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Under any 8 circumstances. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I've made an 10 objection on the basis of a leading question. 11 It's a proper objection. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your position 13 that in the law you can never ask a leading 14 question? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not here to argue 16 the law with you, Mr. Klayman. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: So we're back where 18 we started. Let's take a break. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm entitled to make 20 objections to your leading questions. You've 21 not established any basis to lead this 22 witness. 315 1 MR. MILLS: How long a break, 2 Mr. Klayman? Five minutes? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Five minutes is fine. 4 MR. MILLS: Thank you. 5 THE WITNESS: Going off video 6 record at 3:18. 7 (Recess) 8 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 9 record at 3:30. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you ever communicate with Linda 12 Tripp by E-mail when you were at The White 13 House? 14 A I don't remember doing that, but I 15 understand from the records before the Senate 16 that there were electronic messages that I 17 communicated with her. 18 Q Is that a good example of how you 19 frequently forget things? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 22 MR. MILLS: To the form of the 316 1 question. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I don't 3 know what a good example is or a bad example. 4 But it's certainly an example. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you ever communicate with 7 Ms. Tripp about what was in Vince Foster's 8 briefcase at the time he died? 9 A I don't remember if we had a 10 conversation to that effect or not. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. I'll show you 12 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 13 the next exhibit. 14 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 9 15 was marked for identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Showing you Exhibit 9, I'll ask you 18 to turn to Page 742. Mr. Fitton can help you 19 find that. 20 A Okay. 21 Q Does that refresh your recollection 22 as to whether you ever communicated with 317 1 Ms. Tripp about what was in Foster's 2 briefcase after he died? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 THE WITNESS: No, sir, it does not. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Can you tell me whether you ever 8 looked in Mr. Foster's briefcase after he 9 died? 10 A No, I don't recall looking in his 11 briefcase. 12 Q Ever before or after he died. 13 A No, not looking in his briefcase. 14 Q Turn to Page 744. Do you see where 15 it shows that you sent an E-mail to Linda 16 Tripp and it says, "I do not know what else 17 in there but the bag is totally cleaned out 18 except for one collar stay"? Do you remember 19 writing that? 20 A No, sir, I don't. 21 Q Do you remember anything about a 22 collar stay? 318 1 A No, sir, I'm sorry, I don't 2 remember that. 3 Q When you said, "I do not know what 4 else in there but the bag," what bag were you 5 referring to? 6 MR. MILLS: Objection. It says "I 7 do not know what else was in there." 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Whatever it says. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you remember making any 11 reference to a bag? 12 A No, sir, I don't remember what it 13 is. 14 Q Do you know what bag you're 15 referring to? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Did Mr. Foster have a burn bag? 18 A He did. 19 Q Did he burn things in that bag? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: No, he didn't. It 22 was set out at night for -- 319 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q It was what? 3 A The bag was set out at night for 4 those in charge to pick them up and take them 5 to wherever they were to be taken to be 6 burned. 7 Q Do you know if Mr. Foster ever put 8 anything in that burn bag? 9 A I know that he did on occasion that 10 had items in there. 11 Q Did he discuss with you a procedure 12 for putting things in that burn bag? 13 A No, sir, not in his burn bag. 14 Q A procedure to put in anybody 15 else's burn bag? 16 A No, he never discussed it with me. 17 Q Are you aware of anything that ever 18 specifically was put in the burn bag? In 19 other words, do you know of any specific 20 document or thing that was ever put in that 21 burn bag? 22 A In his burn bag? 320 1 Q Yeah. 2 A Not that I can recall. 3 Q Did other people have burn bags? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Who else? 6 A I had one, or I used one. I can't 7 remember if we all shared that burn bag in 8 the outer office or not. But it was kept 9 behind my desk. 10 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum have a burn bag? 11 A As of today, I can't remember if he 12 had one or not. 13 Q Why did you have a burn bag? 14 A I don't know that it specifically 15 belonged to me but it was right behind my 16 desk. 17 Q What were you advised if anything 18 about what the burn bag was for? 19 A I'm sorry, to this day I cannot 20 remember the stipulations of what was to be 21 placed in a burn bag and what was to be 22 placed in a trash can. 321 1 Q Who gave you those stipulations? 2 A I can't remember what the 3 stipulations were, so -- 4 Q No, but who relayed them to you? 5 A I cannot remember who did. 6 Q Were they in writing? 7 A I don't know. I don't recall. 8 Q Was it done orally? 9 A I don't remember. 10 Q What is it your understanding 11 should be in the burn bag for destruction, 12 what kind of documents do you put in there? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 14 answered. 15 THE WITNESS: Sir, I don't recall 16 what was to be separated between the burn bag 17 and the trash. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you ever know? 20 A I'm sure I did. 21 Q Do you have any general 22 understanding as to how you decide whether to 322 1 burn something or keep it? 2 A No, not at this time. I can only 3 assume that perhaps it was what was to go in 4 the burn bag was documents to be shredded or 5 to be recycled, you know, to be burned, you 6 know, separated from trash such as lunches. 7 Q Did Mr. Foster ever discuss the 8 criteria for putting things in burn bags with 9 you? 10 A I don't recall our conversation if 11 we had one. 12 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum? 13 A I don't recall a conversation. 14 Q Did Betsy Pond? 15 A Sorry. I don't recall a 16 conversation regarding that -- in respect 17 that it's been so long. 18 Q Linda Tripp? 19 A No, I'm sorry. 20 Q That other fellow, Mr. Castleton? 21 A No. 22 Q Mr. Kennedy? 323 1 A No. 2 Q Was it your understanding that it 3 was up to Foster and Nussbaum to decide what 4 to put into the burn bag and that you 5 shouldn't really know what it was? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 8 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't 9 have an understanding that it was their 10 decision alone. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But you did understand there were 13 some things that for whatever reason 14 shouldn't be kept. 15 A I'm sure I did at one time have an 16 understanding of what differentiated between 17 trash and the burn bag. 18 Q Your understanding was, is that you 19 should burn stuff that could get Mr. Foster 20 or Mr. Nussbaum in legal difficulty? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 324 1 of the question. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: Sir, to this day I do 4 not know what the differentiation was. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did all this seem very mysterious 7 to you at the time? 8 A What? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q The fact that there was a burn bag, 12 you wore working for one of the principal 13 lawyers in the office and don't really know 14 what the criteria was for burning stuff? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection, 16 mischaracterization. 17 THE WITNESS: Does it seem 18 mysterious to you or to me? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q To you. 21 A That I don't remember today? 22 Q Yes. 325 1 A No, it's not mysterious to me. 2 Q Turn to your calendar which is 3 Exhibit 6, the entry on July 21st at 7:15. 4 A July 21st, did you say? 5 Q Do you see that E-mail? 6 A Yes. 7 Q That's your handwriting, isn't it? 8 A It is. 9 Q What was your reference to E-mail 10 all about? 11 A I do not know. 12 Q Were you taking a course in E-mail? 13 A I do not recall what that is about. 14 Q You made a reference to E-mail on 15 that date so you would remember to erase all 16 your E-mail? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: Sir, Mr. Klayman, I 20 do not know what the reference of E-mail is 21 on that particular day and particular time. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 326 1 Q Did you ever have a discussion with 2 Mr. Nussbaum about seeing anything in Vince 3 Foster's briefcase? 4 A I did. 5 Q What did you tell Mr. Nussbaum? 6 A That out of the corner of my eye I 7 saw the color of yellow. 8 Q What else did you tell 9 Mr. Nussbaum? 10 A I believe that I might have seen a 11 Goldcraft Manila envelope, gold-colored 12 Manila envelope as in the top edge of the 13 folder, excuse me. 14 Q These were the same kinds of Manila 15 envelopes that you had seen in Vince Foster's 16 office? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I gave him 20 Manila or sometimes called vanilla envelopes, 21 the pale cream, and this one was of a 22 Goldcraft color. 327 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Had you ever seen such an envelope 3 before? 4 A Folder, top folder? I don't recall 5 if there were that, if there were many of 6 those in our office or not. 7 Q Did you testify in front of the 8 Senate that the envelope was a Manila type 9 folder? 10 A I believe I might have described it 11 as a gold-colored folder, but I'd have to 12 review my testimony. 13 Q Had you ever seen a folder like 14 this before? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 16 answered. 17 THE WITNESS: Possibly. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Where had you seen them? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q These were folders that came in 22 sometimes marked Confidential or for Your 328 1 Eyes Only, folders like that, correct? 2 A No, sir. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: Those were envelopes. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q This Manila type folder was an FBI 7 file, wasn't it? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. MILLS: Form. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q It might have been? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what 20 it was. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q It might have been? 329 1 A I have no idea what it was. I only 2 saw the top of the folder. 3 Q It was labeled? 4 A I do not remember if it was labeled 5 or not. 6 Q I'll turn your attention to 7 Page 620 of your Senate testimony. Turn down 8 to the bottom of the page wherein it says, 9 this is you speaking, "Mr. Nussbaum asked me 10 to sit in the chair on the opposite side of 11 his table and asked me if I had seen anything 12 in the bottom of Vince's briefcase. 13 I told him that I had only seen the 14 color yellow, and I had seen the top of the 15 Goldcraft third-cut folder, and that was all 16 I had seen." Mr. Chertoff, "When you say a 17 Goldcraft third-cut folder, do you mean a 18 folder like this, a Manila envelope?" 19 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's not 20 the words. You said "a Manila envelope." It 21 actually says "a Manila-type folder" in the 22 text. 330 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I just read this. 2 Was it necessary for you to inject that? 3 MR. MILLS: Actually I think it 4 was. One of the standards for the D.C. 5 Voluntary Code requires that attorneys not 6 intentionally mischaracterize the record. I 7 am sure you weren't doing it intentionally, 8 so I was trying to assist you by pointing out 9 the actual words on the page. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I haven't asked my 11 question yet. 12 MR. MILLS: I think it would be 13 helpful to have the witness understand the 14 actual words. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: This is highly 16 inappropriate and is in fact feeding 17 testimony to the witness. This is what I'm 18 talking about. Why is that necessary? 19 MR. MILLS: Because you misstated 20 the word in material manner. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: It's also not only in 22 the D.C. Code of Voluntary Conduct, but it's 331 1 also in our Rule of Ethics that we as 2 officers of the court are not to subvert 3 justice, are not to subvert the truth. When 4 you do stuff like that, it does have the 5 impact of tainting the testimony which means 6 that justice is not going to be done. I ask 7 that you not do that again. 8 MR. MILLS: That's interesting. 9 I've listened to you. Can I respond? My 10 response is in fact I agree with you that we 11 should not be subverting justice. I think it 12 would be subverting justice to leave the 13 record as you misread the actual words in the 14 transcript that you're reading to the witness 15 into the record. 16 It's not subverting justice to make 17 a correction of fact on the record. In fact, 18 I think it's advancing the cause of justice 19 which is what we all are here for, I'm sure. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I read it exactly as 21 I saw it. 22 MR. MILLS: Well, then perhaps 332 1 you'd like to read it again. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll read it again. 3 The answer will be worthless. 4 MR. MILLS: Perhaps, we could read 5 back what the reporter actually got and see 6 if we made a mistake; and if you got it 7 right, I apologize. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll let the record 9 speak for itself. I just want to move on. 10 MR. MILLS: That's fine. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: If you have a problem 12 in the future, ask the witness to leave and 13 you can raise the problem with me. If I made 14 a mistake, I'll correct it. 15 MR. MILLS: I don't even know what 16 your question is. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: That's the point, I 18 hadn't even asked the question yet. 19 MR. MILLS: You were reading text 20 from a transcript and misstated it in a 21 material manner. Honestly, all I was doing 22 was correcting it, Mr. Klayman. That's all I 333 1 was doing. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: The record is clear 3 what you're doing. The record is clear the 4 way I get quadruple-teamed by objections 5 every time I ask a question. 6 MR. MILLS: I'm only representing 7 one witness. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask simply that if 9 you want to do that again, take a timeout, 10 have the witness leave the room. If I have 11 made an inadvertent mistake, I'll be happy to 12 correct it, but not to inject this in front 13 of the witness. 14 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, it was not 15 my decision so sue multiple parties. The 16 reason there are a lot of people in this room 17 is because there are multiple parties and 18 they have to be represented. I'm only 19 interested in the representation of my 20 client. 21 You misquoted something and I 22 corrected it. There is no reason for the 334 1 witness to leave the room. I have no problem 2 moving on. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: You can have as much 4 time for cross-examination as you want. If I 5 misstated it, you can go back and do it, but 6 not in front of the witness. Like I said, if 7 you ask her to leave, I will correct it if I 8 made an inadvertent mistake. 9 All I want is the truth. I'll let 10 the testimony before the committee speak for 11 itself at this point because there is no 12 point in asking any questions. Are you 13 pleased, Mr. Gaffney? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Excuse me, 15 Mr. Klayman. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: You're smiling. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: You're moving on. 18 That's what you said. By the way, please 19 don't take my silence in response to your 20 speeches to be in agreement with them. I 21 happen to agree with Mr. Mills that it was 22 inappropriate for you to misread the 335 1 testimony. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Laughing and smirking 3 is another aspect of the way that I'm being 4 harassed here today. Interruptions, 5 laughing, smirking, leading objections that 6 have no basis, this is what this proceeding 7 has become. 8 MR. MILLS: That's the second time 9 you've said that. I haven't heard laughing 10 and smirking. The only thing that happened 11 here is you were trying to establish one 12 thing and it seems like you were 13 intentionally misciting the record, and I 14 consider that to be subverting justice. 15 That's why I pointed it out as an error. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the court 17 decide exactly what happened here. I think 18 the record is clear. I just ask that if I 19 inadvertently make a mistake, ask the witness 20 to leave the room before you spew forth on 21 the record something which can tip the 22 witness off to a response. 336 1 MR. MILLS: Are you saying it would 2 tip off the witness to the proper response by 3 pointing out that it was not in fact "a 4 Manila-type folder" in the actual transcript, 5 it was in fact what you said which was an 6 envelope? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't do that again. 8 Please stop. Please stop. 9 MR. MILLS: I'm happy to stop and 10 move on. I thought that's where we were. 11 You said you were done with questions on this 12 subject. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did there come a point in time when 15 you left working in that West Wing suite and 16 moved over to work in the OEOB? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What was the reason for your move? 19 A As I had stated, there was not a 20 lot of work for me to do once my supervisor 21 died. Because it was an unchallenging place, 22 because of that fact and I knew that 337 1 Mr. Kennedy's detail would be leaving very 2 soon, I offered to go over and help folks at 3 the Old EOB. 4 Q Was the reason you wanted to leave 5 to get away from the memory of Vince Foster 6 and what had happened? 7 A No. 8 Q Not in any respect? 9 A No. 10 Q You moved over to the Old EOB and 11 you began to work for William Kennedy? 12 A Actually, Cheryl Mills. 13 Q Cheryl Mills. Who did you discuss 14 your move with before you made it? 15 A I don't recall exactly whom. I'm 16 sure I spoke with Betsy about it and 17 Mr. Nussbaum. 18 Q What did you tell Betsy Pond? 19 A I don't recall exactly. I believe 20 I just simply offered to help them out since 21 they were becoming lack of staff and I really 22 didn't have much work to do. 338 1 Q What did you say to Bernard 2 Nussbaum? 3 A I don't remember exactly what our 4 conversation was. But since he would be my 5 immediate supervisor I asked if that were 6 permissible for me to do that. 7 Q Did there come a point in time when 8 you talked to Bill Kennedy or Cheryl Mills 9 about what you'd be doing in the Old EOB? 10 A I suppose there was, yes. 11 Q Who did you talk to first, Cheryl 12 Mills? 13 A I don't remember if I spoke with 14 Bill or Cheryl first. I knew that Bill's 15 detailed employee was leaving very shortly 16 and so I went to work with Cheryl's office 17 and then moved to Mr. Kennedy's office when 18 his employee left. 19 Q What did Ms. Mills tell you about 20 your duties and responsibilities at the OEOB? 21 A I don't remember our conversation. 22 I'm sure it was typically, you know, answer 339 1 phones, take messages. 2 Q What did you understand Cheryl 3 Mills' duties and responsibilities to be? 4 A I did not have any idea what her 5 responsibilities were, only her title. 6 Q Did you ever work for Joel Klein? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Did you ever talk to him when you 9 were at The White House? 10 A No, I did not. 11 Q Did you ever talk to his secretary? 12 A Only on the last day of my 13 departure. 14 Q What did you say to his secretary? 15 A I was seated there outside at her 16 desk, outside Mr. Klein's office and 17 Mr. Nussbaum's office. It was the day of my 18 going away party. I simply just exchanged 19 pleasantries with her. 20 Q At the time that you talked to 21 Cheryl Mills, did you have any knowledge as 22 to whether or not she was involved in some of 340 1 the so-called Clinton scandals? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 A No, sir. I had no idea what her 8 responsibilities were nor what matters she 9 was working on. 10 Q Was it ever said to you that "you 11 are going to go over to work with Cheryl 12 Mills so Ms. Mills can keep an eye on you," 13 did you ever hear anybody say anything like 14 that? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I never 18 heard that. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever have that feeling that 21 they wanted you to work over there with 22 Cheryl Mills and Bill Kennedy so they could 341 1 keep track of you? 2 MR. MILLS: Objection. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q That maybe you knew too much? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did there come a point in time when 14 you worked with Cheryl Mills at the OEOB? 15 A Yes, of course. 16 Q What specifically was your title 17 there? 18 A I don't know if my title changed or 19 not. I don't recall if it did. 20 Q Then what were your specific duties 21 and responsibilities once you actually got on 22 the job? 342 1 A Really simply to answer her phones 2 for her and take messages. 3 Q Did you ever take any messages from 4 Mrs. Clinton or her office? 5 A I don't remember if I did or did 6 not. 7 Q Did you come to learn better what 8 Cheryl Mills did in The White House Counsel's 9 office? 10 A No, I didn't. 11 Q Did you ever take any calls from 12 the President? 13 A I don't remember if I did or did 14 not, no. 15 Q You might have? 16 A I might have, yes, or I might not 17 have. That was very long ago and a very 18 short period of time that I worked her. 19 Q You're not aware that the President 20 sometimes had contact with Ms. Mills? 21 A No, sir, I'm not aware if they had 22 contact. 343 1 Q Did there come a point in time when 2 you shifted from working for Ms. Mills to 3 Mr. Kennedy? 4 A Yes. 5 Q When was that? 6 A That was approximately 7 October 1, 1993. 8 Q Why did you shift from Ms. Mills to 9 Mr. Kennedy? 10 A Mr. Kennedy's secretary detail 11 returned to their government agency. 12 Q Who was that secretary? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall her 15 name, only her face. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you remember her first name? 18 A No, I don't, just her face. 19 Q I take it you met with Mr. Kennedy 20 and he described for you what your duties and 21 responsibilities were going to be working 22 with him? 344 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know that we 3 ever had an official discussion. I perceived 4 my ability, my responsibilities would be 5 simply to answer phones. I was later asked 6 to type labels for file folders. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Who all asked you to type labels 9 for file folders? 10 A One of the attorneys there on 11 detail. 12 Q Who was that? 13 A I don't recall her name, just her 14 face. 15 Q What did her face look like? 16 A She was a young black woman, 17 probably no more than 30, very attractive, 18 well groomed. 19 Q Do you know where she is today? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Do you know who would know who she 22 is? 345 1 A I suppose people who remember more 2 than I do. 3 Q When you moved from the West Wing 4 to the OEOB, you took your computer with you? 5 A I actually did not physically move 6 it myself. It was moved by, I don't know if 7 it was someone in General Services or someone 8 in their internal technology department. But 9 it ended up in the office of Cheryl Mills, 10 yes. 11 Q You requested to take your computer 12 with you. 13 A I don't know that I requested it, 14 sir. But they were lacking in a computer and 15 I don't know if Cheryl requested it or I did, 16 but that's where it ended. 17 Q Do you know of any other instance 18 in The White House where an employee has 19 moved from one office to the next and taken 20 his or her computer with him? 21 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I have no 346 1 knowledge about that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you sign a form or do you know 4 of anyone who did to get your computer moved 5 from the West Wing to the OEOB? 6 A No, sir, I can't recall if anything 7 was necessary in that respect. 8 Q You wanted to take that computer 9 with you because you didn't want it to get 10 out of your possession. Correct? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MR. MILLS: Objection. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 14 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You were concerned what was on that 17 computer. Correct? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: No, sir, other than 21 my resume. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 347 1 Q They had computers in the OEOB, 2 didn't they? 3 A I'm sure they did. 4 Q When that computer was moved from 5 the West Wing to the OEOB, was it 6 instantaneous or were there some days in 7 between your leaving the West Wing going to 8 the OEOB and your getting that computer to 9 join you? 10 A I don't recall if there was any lag 11 time or not. 12 Q Do you know whether or not between 13 that period anything was wiped off the hard 14 drive of that computer? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I would have no 17 knowledge of that. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You don't know one way or the 20 other? 21 A No, sir, I do not. 22 Q Did you check the computer when it 348 1 arrived from the West Wing to see whether 2 files had been deleted from that computer? 3 A No, sir, I didn't. 4 Q So you don't know whether that 5 computer had been sanitized. 6 A No, I do not. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You say you were asked to type 10 files for Mr. Kennedy, file folders. What 11 specifically were you told about typing file 12 folders? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 17 THE WITNESS: I was asked to type 18 the labels that would be placed on file 19 folders. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What were you told about that task? 22 A Simply how they were typed, what 349 1 order, and where they were typed and how 2 large the folder, the files -- how large the 3 labels were. 4 Q How did you go about doing that? 5 A On a manual typewriter. 6 Q Where did you get the names to type 7 the labels from? 8 A I don't recall how it was conveyed 9 to me. Perhaps on a piece of paper, 10 handwritten. I don't remember. 11 Q They were the names of individuals? 12 A They were the names of people, yes. 13 Q Do you know how those names, why 14 you were typing those names in the file 15 folders? 16 A No, I do not know why. 17 Q Those were the names of people that 18 were in the security clearance process, were 19 they not? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know really 350 1 what the security process was or what the 2 reasoning was for. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did anyone ever explain that to 5 you? 6 A I don't remember if it was 7 explained to me or not or if it was simply a 8 request to type these names. 9 Q Do you know what types of names 10 these were, were they Judicial appointments? 11 A No, sir. I only recall that these 12 names went on folders for Presidential 13 appointments within the Administration. 14 Q How did you learn that? 15 A The young black woman that I spoke 16 about whose name I do not remember conveyed 17 to me that these were for appointments within 18 the Administration. 19 Q You put these names on file 20 folders. 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Does the name Bobby Inman ring a 351 1 bell, did you type a label for him? 2 A No, I don't know that name. 3 Q Did you type a label for any 4 Cabinet secretaries? 5 A I don't know if I did or did not. 6 Q Did you type a label for any 7 Judicial appointments? 8 A I don't know if I did or did not. 9 Q So you really couldn't tell whether 10 these were political appointments or the 11 names of Republicans. 12 A That's correct. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You really couldn't tell whether in 16 fact these were political appointments, they 17 may have just been other people. Correct? 18 A They were just simply names on file 19 folders, yes. 20 Q How did you get the names that you 21 could then type them on the file folders? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 352 1 answered. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall 3 exactly. Again, I believe that they might 4 have just simply been handwritten by a 5 vetting attorney such as this young woman 6 that asked me to type these labels. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you take the names off of 9 envelopes or other file folders? 10 A No, sir. I probably would have 11 taken them just simply off of a sheet of 12 paper. 13 Q Did you take the names off of a 14 list? 15 A Well, I suppose if it had been 16 written on a piece of paper it would indeed 17 simply be a list. 18 Q Did you take the names from any 19 Secret Service documents, Secret Service 20 lists? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q Did you take the names from any FBI 353 1 lists? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q You don't know one way or the 4 other. 5 A No. I only remember that they 6 would be handed to me by the vetting 7 attorney. 8 Q They were handwritten on a piece of 9 paper? 10 A Yes, they were handwritten. 11 Q On a yellow pad? 12 A I don't remember the color of the 13 paper. 14 Q About how many names did you create 15 labels for? 16 A I don't remember. I'm sorry. I 17 don't know if it was five or ten -- 18 Q About 1,000? 19 A No, not that many at all. 20 Q How long did you work with 21 Mr. Kennedy? 22 A For about six weeks. 354 1 Q So during that six-week period you 2 only did ten names, about? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I really couldn't 5 tell you. But it was not a great many at 6 all. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Less than 20? 9 A It might have been. It might have 10 been 30. 11 Q It might have been 40? 12 A It might have been. It's not a 13 significant number, though. 14 Q It might have been 100? 15 A It might have been. 16 Q It might have been 200? 17 A I don't think it was that many. 18 Q Somewhere between 100 and 200? 19 A It probably wasn't that many 20 either. 21 Q No one ever told you where these 22 names came from? 355 1 A No, sir. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Were the names typed onto a label 5 and then put on a file folder? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What kind of a label was it typed 8 on? 9 A I think they were either half-inch 10 or three-quarter-inch wide labels. 11 Q Was there any color strip on them? 12 A No. It was white and they have two 13 little blue tabs on the end. It's a standard 14 Avery label. 15 Q Did you then put the label on a 16 file folder? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What was the color of the file 19 folders you put them on? 20 A I can only remember them being pale 21 color. Whether they were cream or whether 22 they were pale green or gray, but they were 356 1 very pale. 2 Q Were they Manila-colored? 3 A I don't remember if they were 4 Manila-colored or not, only pale. 5 Q Could have been. Could have been 6 Manila? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q What was the size of the folders 9 that you put them on? 10 A I believe that I recall that they 11 were legal size and pressboard. 12 Q Legal size is eight by 11 or eight 13 and a half by 14? 14 A Eight and a half by 14. 15 Q Who did you give the labeled file 16 folders to, Mr. Kennedy? 17 A No, whoever requested that I type 18 the label for the folder. 19 Q During the time that you worked in 20 the OEOB you did observe Mr. Kennedy typing 21 labels himself, didn't you? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 357 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q From time to time? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Never? 7 A No. 8 Q During the time that you worked at 9 the OEOB you were aware that Mr. Kennedy had 10 files in his office. Correct? 11 A No, sir, I wasn't aware of that. 12 Q You never saw any files in his 13 office? 14 A I never looked in his office for 15 files. 16 Q Did you ever go into his office? 17 A I did. 18 Q When you went into his office you 19 sometimes saw files, stacks of them on his 20 tables? 21 A No, sir. I only saw stacks on his 22 table. 358 1 Q Hmm? 2 A I said no, sir. I only saw stacks 3 on his table. 4 Q That's what I just said. 5 MR. MILLS: No. Objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q I asked you when you went into his 8 office you saw stacks of files on his tables. 9 A Yes, sir, and I answered that I 10 only saw stacks on his desk. Whether they 11 were files or paper, I have no idea. 12 Q The color of these files was 13 Manila? 14 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: Sir, I do not know 20 what was on his desk. I only know that the 21 color, the pale color of the folders that I 22 typed that indeed I placed a label on top of 359 1 them. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q That's what they looked like. 4 MR. MILLS: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I do not know if 6 Mr. Kennedy had files on his desk. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you see folders on his desk? 9 A I did not look on his desk, sir. 10 Q You made a special point of not 11 paying attention to what was in his office 12 when you walked in. 13 A As I do to everyone's. 14 Q Even the people you work for. 15 A Absolutely. 16 Q So you have been trained not to 17 observe anything in the workplace? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I've never 20 been trained. That's my ethical standard. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I'm trying to understand why it is 360 1 an ethical standard to not observe what your 2 boss has in his professional capacity on his 3 desk. 4 MR. MILLS: Is there a question 5 pending? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Yes. What is it about an ethical 8 standard that you were trained requires that? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: Because whatever is 12 on my boss' desk is not my work. It's 13 invasive and intrusive to go through any 14 papers or documents or folders that do not 15 relate to me, that he has not asked me to 16 retrieve from his desk or place on his desk. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, but did 19 you testify a few minutes ago that you did 20 see stacks of folders on Kennedy's desk? 21 MR. MILLS: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 361 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 2 objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What did you testify to? 5 A I saw stacks on his desk. 6 Q Stacks of what? 7 A I have no idea what they were. I 8 don't know if they were paper; I don't know 9 if they were newspapers; I don't know if they 10 were file folders. 11 Q Is your ethical standard when you 12 work for your boss hear no evil, see no evil, 13 do no evil? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Is that basically it? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Whatever you saw on his desk, it 362 1 was cream-colored? 2 A Sir, I did not look on his desk. 3 Q Whatever you saw in his office. 4 You saw cream-colored materials there? 5 A Sir, it's all peripheral vision. 6 They are stacks. I have no idea what color 7 those stacks are. 8 Q You're not colorblind, are you? 9 A No, I'm not. 10 Q It's part of your ethical standard 11 that you don't observe colors in the 12 workplace? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 MR. MILLS: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: No, sir, that's not 16 part of my ethical standard. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q When you walked into Kennedy's 19 office you saw things on his floor sometimes? 20 A Chairs. 21 Q Documents? 22 A I didn't look. 363 1 Q Folders? 2 A I didn't look. 3 Q You had a feeling, didn't you, when 4 you worked both in the West Wing and the OEOB 5 that things were going on in those offices 6 that you should simply not know about. 7 Correct? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A Sir, I do not know what was going 14 on in his office. It was not my 15 responsibility to know what matters the 16 attorneys worked on. It was only my 17 responsibility to dictate tapes, to type file 18 labels, to answer the phones. 19 Q Is that your same standard today 20 working for Dow, Lohnes & Albertson? 21 A It is my standard to be directed by 22 my supervisor to do whatever he wants. In 364 1 the sense of answering phones, typing 2 letters, opening mail. 3 Q But to be totally unobservant about 4 what's going on around you? 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, it's not my 9 standard to be unobservant. It is my 10 standard to not be intrusive and read 11 products between a client and his attorney. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Well, I didn't ask you whether you 14 read product between a client and his 15 attorney. I asked you simply whether you 16 observed stacks of folders or files in 17 Mr. Kennedy's office. I didn't ask you 18 whether you read any of them. 19 A I understand. 20 Q Does that help you? 21 A Of course it does, but it's not 22 necessary, sir. As I told you, I did not 365 1 look on his desk to see if they were 2 newspapers, file folders, papers, betting 3 forms, legal pads. 4 Q So with regard to Linda Tripp's 5 testimony that she saw certain file folders 6 in Kennedy's office, you read that, didn't 7 you? 8 A That I did. 9 Q She was able to identify some of 10 those file folders. Correct? 11 A She did. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 13 MR. MILLS: Objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Because you didn't observe what was 16 going on in that office because it wasn't 17 your business in your opinion, you can't 18 refute Linda Tripp, can you? 19 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 20 of the question. 21 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what 22 Linda saw. 366 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q But you don't take issue with 3 anything she said because you didn't really 4 observe. Correct? 5 A No. 6 MR. MILLS: Objection, 7 argumentative. 8 THE WITNESS: No. I don't have 9 Linda Tripp's eyes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You don't know what if anything 12 Mr. Kennedy discussed with Ms. Tripp about 13 anything that was in his office, do you? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge 16 of their conversation. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Any aspect of it. 19 A That's correct. 20 Q On the computer that you had when 21 it was moved over, was there any new software 22 that was loaded up when you were in the OEOB? 367 1 A I do not remember. 2 Q Did your computer screen show 3 columns sometimes? 4 A No, I don't remember columns as in 5 Excel or any kinds of table such as that. 6 Q There were some things on your 7 computer that had pass codes, that you 8 couldn't get into without pass codes. 9 Correct? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you have more than one pass 14 code? 15 A No. 16 Q No? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q What was your pass code? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q There were entries on the computer 21 that were encrypted. Correct? 22 A That's correct. 368 1 Q What was encrypted? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q There was information on that 4 computer about an issue concerning tainted 5 blood. Correct? 6 A I don't recall. 7 Q You don't recall one way or the 8 other. 9 A That's correct. 10 Q There was encrypted material on 11 that computer that had been loaded up from 12 files. Correct? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q One way or the other. 18 A That's correct. 19 Q There was material on that computer 20 that was encrypted that came from FBI summary 21 reports? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 369 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 2 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Correct? 5 A I have no idea about that. 6 Q One way or the other. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q There was information in that 9 computer that came from FBI raw data? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 12 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 13 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q One way or the other. 16 A That's correct. 17 Q There was information on that 18 computer that came from the Internal Revenue 19 Service. Correct? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 22 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 370 1 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge 2 of that. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q One way or the other. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q Who had access to that computer 7 besides yourself? 8 A While I was at the OEOB? 9 Q Yes. 10 A I don't remember who might have 11 accessed it. 12 Q Who in the ordinary course could 13 have accessed it? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q But other people could have 16 accessed it. 17 A It's a possibility. 18 Q What leads you to believe it's a 19 possibility? 20 A Turn the system on and perhaps if 21 I'd given someone the password to log on. 22 But I don't remember. 371 1 Q You may have given the password to 2 somebody else? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Who in the ordinary course would 5 you have been authorized to give the password 6 to? 7 A The other secretary that I worked 8 with in times perhaps when I would be out of 9 the offers. 10 Q Who was that? 11 A Ms. Champagne. 12 Q Anyone else? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you give the pass code to 15 Mr. Kennedy? 16 A No. 17 Q You may have? 18 A I might have. 19 Q Did you ever see Craig Livingstone 20 in that office? 21 A In which office? 22 Q The OEOB. 372 1 A Yes. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q When had you first met or come into 5 contact with Craig Livingstone? 6 A I suppose the first couple of weeks 7 I arrived. 8 Q What were the circumstances of your 9 coming into contact with him? 10 A I don't remember. I can only 11 speculate. Perhaps he introduced himself and 12 I introduced myself. 13 Q Did he tell you how he came to be 14 at The White House? 15 A No. 16 Q He told you, did he not, that he 17 had been hired by Hillary Clinton? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 20 THE WITNESS: He did not tell me 21 that. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 373 1 Q He told you that he had been 2 recommended by Hillary Clinton? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: He did not tell me 5 that. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q He told you that his mother knew 8 Hillary Clinton? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: He did not tell me 11 that. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q He told you what his duties and 14 responsibilities were at The White House? 15 A No, he did not convey that to me. 16 Q Did anyone else tell you what 17 Livingstone was doing at The White House? 18 A Not that I remember, no. 19 Q So you really didn't know what he 20 was doing at The White House. 21 A No. 22 Q But you did see him in the OEOB 374 1 from time to time. 2 A I did. 3 Q Do you know what he was doing 4 there? 5 A Buying his lunch. 6 Q He bought you lunch? 7 A No. He was buying his lunch. 8 Q Did you ever see him in the suite 9 of offices that Mr. Kennedy occupied with 10 you? 11 A He infrequently came in. 12 Q Do you know why he came in? 13 A No, I do not. 14 Q When he came in who did he go see? 15 A I can't remember if he saw 16 Mr. Kennedy specifically or not. 17 Q You saw him come into the office 18 with some documents from time to time? 19 A I didn't notice what he was 20 carrying. 21 Q You did notice he was carrying 22 something. 375 1 A I did not notice what he was 2 carrying if he was. 3 Q You saw him in Mr. Kennedy's office 4 from time to time. 5 A No. I saw him come through our 6 ante office. 7 Q But did you see him in 8 Mr. Kennedy's office from time to time? 9 A I do not remember if he visited 10 Mr. Kennedy or not. 11 Q Do you remember if he visited 12 anybody? 13 A I do not remember who he visited. 14 Q Do you have any inkling as to what 15 he was doing up there? 16 A He must have been visiting someone. 17 Q Did you form an opinion that he was 18 loitering? 19 A No. 20 Q Did you ever ask, "What is this guy 21 doing here"? 22 A No. 376 1 Q Did you ever see Mr. Livingstone 2 when you were in the West Wing suite? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you see him frequently there? 5 A No, very infrequently. 6 Q Did you know why he was there? 7 A No. 8 Q Did anyone ever tell you why he was 9 there? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever see him come into the 12 office with anything? 13 A I didn't notice if he was carrying 14 anything or not. 15 Q To this day do you have any 16 understanding as to what Mr. Livingstone did 17 at The White House? 18 A I only know that his title was 19 something about security operations. 20 Q How did you find out about that? 21 A I probably looked it up in the 22 phone book when I worked there. 377 1 Q So that's all you know to this day 2 about Craig Livingstone and his activities at 3 The White House? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Do you know whether or not 6 Mr. Livingstone was a defendant or was named 7 as a defendant in this case? 8 A No, I do not. 9 Q Have you ever seen Mr. Livingstone 10 outside of The White House? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you ever read anything about 13 Mr. Livingstone? 14 A No, I haven't. 15 Q Are you aware that he was a former 16 bar bouncer? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Are you aware that he was reported 21 once to have threatened to smash in the face 22 of his next-door neighbor? 378 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Are you aware that he was accused 5 of violating the privacy rights of 1,000 6 Republicans? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what he 10 was accused of. I only saw his photograph on 11 the front page of The Washington Post one 12 day. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But you didn't read the story. 15 A Absolutely not. 16 Q Why? 17 A I have no interest. 18 Q Do you know who Marsha Scott is? 19 A I do. 20 Q How did you learn who she is? 21 A I was probably introduced to her. 22 I believe she headed the Correspondence Unit, 379 1 if that's correct. 2 Q Why were you introduced to her? 3 A I think out of courtesy, perhaps. 4 Q What do you mean out of courtesy? 5 A Perhaps -- I don't quite remember 6 who introduced me to her. Perhaps it's a 7 matter when you meet someone at first and 8 you're in their office, you're introduced to 9 someone. 10 Q Has anyone ever said to you that if 11 you're in a legal proceeding and you're 12 giving testimony if you say you don't 13 remember you can never be held accountable 14 for that? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 17 objection. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't ever remember 19 discussing that with anyone, sir. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever hear anybody say that 22 you can't get anybody for perjury if that 380 1 person just doesn't remember? 2 A I don't know that I've ever heard 3 that. 4 Q Is that your understanding? 5 A I have never thought about that. 6 Q Did you ever see Marsha Scott in 7 the presence of Bill Kennedy? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You may have? 12 A I might have. 13 Q You might have seen them talking. 14 A I might have. 15 Q You might have seen them talking in 16 the OEOB? 17 A I might have. 18 Q You might have seen them talking in 19 the suite of offices that you occupied with 20 Mr. Kennedy? 21 A I might have. 22 Q You saw Marsha Scott in those 381 1 offices more than once? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't remember how 5 many times I saw her there. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q But it was more than once. 8 A I have no idea. 9 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the 10 court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 11 MR. MILLS: Are we on 10? 12 THE WITNESS: No. 10. 13 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit 14 No. 10 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Showing you Exhibit 10, this is a 18 diagram that was drawn by someone by the name 19 of Stephen Waudby, at least that's what he 20 claimed, at his deposition. It's of that 21 suite that you occupied with Kennedy. Can 22 you tell me where you sat? 382 1 A If you would look at the word 2 "Corridor," and I believe that writing is 3 "Pond" there on the left as you enter the 4 door. 5 Q Right. 6 A I first began there at the Waudby 7 desk and then when Mr. Kennedy's detail left 8 in just a few days I assumed that desk. 9 MR. MILLS: Which desk? 10 THE WITNESS: The one that's marked 11 "Pond." 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Where was your computer placed, the 14 one that was moved? 15 A I don't remember if it was on my 16 desk -- well, when it was moved -- I'm sorry. 17 That's incorrect. It was only moved to 18 Cheryl's office. My computer was not moved 19 to Mr. Kennedy's office. 20 Q So when you moved from Cheryl 21 Mills' office to Kennedy's, you left that 22 computer behind? 383 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q You then began to use the computer 3 that was at the Pond desk? 4 A No, at the Waudby desk first and 5 then the Pond desk. 6 Q So there are two different 7 computers that you used after that? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q So when you testified previously 10 that you couldn't remember if there was 11 anything about tainted blood on the computer, 12 that wasn't the computer that you took from 13 the West Wing that you were talking about 14 before? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q That was the computer that was at 19 the Pond desk? 20 A How was it? 21 Q That was the computer that was at 22 the Pond desk? 384 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q When I asked you the question as to 4 whether or not your computer contained 5 encrypted information about tainted blood 6 what computer was that, what desk was it at? 7 A The one at the West Wing and the 8 one in Cheryl Mills' office. 9 Q When I asked you the questions as 10 to whether the computer contained information 11 about FBI materials or IRS materials, what 12 computer were you referring to? 13 A The computer that I brought from 14 the West Wing. 15 Q Is that the computer that you used 16 to type out documents when you were in the 17 OEOB? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 20 of the question. 21 MR. MILLS: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could you 385 1 be more clear? Are you speaking of -- 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Well, did you ever use that 4 computer that you took over from the West 5 Wing to the OEOB to type any correspondence 6 when you were at the OEOB? 7 A I might have. 8 Q Did you use that computer to type 9 out any labels or anything like that? 10 A No, sir. It did not have that 11 capability. 12 Q What did you type out, what did you 13 use the computers at Waudby's and Pond's 14 desks for? 15 A I don't recall. Perhaps it was 16 simply just short correspondence. But I did 17 very little word processing at those two 18 desks. 19 Q So we're talking during the time 20 that you worked for The White House you used 21 three computers. 22 A Yes. 386 1 Q When you moved over from Cheryl 2 Mills' office to Kennedy's office, you left 3 behind with Cheryl Mills the computer that 4 you took from the West Wing. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q What happened to that computer, do 7 you know? 8 A No, sir, I don't. 9 Q The computers you used at Waudby's 10 desk, what did they look like, were they 11 desktop computers? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you know what their power was? 14 A No, I do not. 15 Q Do you know what make they were? 16 A No, I don't recall. 17 Q Were they the same types of 18 computers on Waudby's desk and Pond's desk? 19 A Yes, they were. 20 Q Were they tied into White House 21 databases? 22 A I would assume they were, but I 387 1 have no true knowledge of that. I mean I 2 would assume that they were tied into their 3 network, of course. 4 Q Did you need a password to get into 5 those two computers as well? 6 A I don't remember if a password was 7 required for those. 8 Q It may have been? 9 A It might have been, yes. 10 Q Do you know whether there were 11 encryptions on those two computers, encrypted 12 documents? 13 A No, I don't recall if there were or 14 weren't. 15 Q There may have been, you just don't 16 recall. 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Did anyone either in front of the 19 Senate or in Ken Starr's office ever ask you 20 about the computers that you used at The 21 White House? 22 A I don't remember. I'd have to 388 1 review my testimony again. 2 Q It doesn't strike a bell? 3 A It does not. 4 Q Do you know whether anyone has ever 5 asked you about the whereabouts of those 6 computers after you left? 7 A I can't remember if in those two 8 depositions they asked me about that. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan, have 10 those computers ever been searched, found and 11 searched? 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm not being 13 deposed here. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Gilligan is not 15 answering questions here today. I'm 16 defending the deposition and he's not 17 answering questions. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Ask me at another 20 time. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you leave the 22 room just for a second? 389 1 MR. MILLS: We're going to stay on 2 the record, right? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. We're 4 facing a discovery deadline for the first 5 part of this case. I just want to know as a 6 matter of professional courtesy whether you 7 know as of now whether those computers have 8 ever been found and searched, these three. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, we're 10 here to have a deposition. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand that, 12 but I just want to know right now. Can you 13 tell me right now, yes or no, or if you don't 14 know then go off and check? 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, we have 16 responded fully and completely to all your 17 document requests in the past; we're working 18 on responding to myriad new document requests 19 at this time. You have litigated with us the 20 scope of our search in the past and the judge 21 has found our searches to be adequate. 22 We have raised with you or 390 1 attempted to resolve with you time and again 2 the issue of searches of White House 3 computers, and you have never been willing to 4 come to the table and sit down and resolve 5 that matter with us. Instead, you have 6 insisted on Prolix 30(b)(6) examinations and 7 irrelevant document requests. 8 I will be happy to sit down when 9 you're ready to talk about reasonable 10 searches of White House computers to get into 11 that subject, but this is not the appropriate 12 time. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking 14 whether you know today whether they've been 15 searched. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm not going to 17 make any representation about that off the 18 top of my head. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: So you don't know? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: You can infer 21 whatever you want from my response. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: You can bring the 391 1 witness back. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Are you aware of anyone using 4 laptop computers in the Old EOB? 5 A No, I was not aware of anyone using 6 those. 7 Q Notebooks? 8 A No. 9 Q Had you ever seen Kennedy use any? 10 A No, sir, I never noticed that. 11 Q You were aware of people that did 12 data entry in that office? 13 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I do not 16 know anything about data entry in that 17 office. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You don't know one way or the 20 other. 21 A No, I don't. 22 Q Now, you saw Mrs. Clinton in that 392 1 office, didn't you? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form of 3 the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't remember ever 5 seeing Mrs. Clinton in that office. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You took calls from Mrs. Clinton 8 from time to time in that office, didn't you? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 MR. MAZUR: Can we know which 12 office this is? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: At the OEOB, 14 Kennedy's office. 15 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I do not 16 recall a time when Mrs. Clinton called there. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q When you took telephone messages, 19 how did you record them? 20 A They were recorded on a standard 21 yellow slip. There's actually a form number 22 for it. 393 1 Q Was there a carbon copy so you'd 2 keep a record of the call after you gave the 3 slip to the recipient? 4 A I don't recall at this time if it 5 was carbonized or not. 6 Q But there was a way you could tell 7 who had called, correct? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know that 10 there was. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know whether Vince Foster 13 ever visited Mrs. Clinton in her office? 14 A I don't know that he visited her. 15 He did tell me one time that he was going 16 into her office to meet with her. 17 Q Did he tell you why? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you know why they met? 20 A No. 21 Q Did anyone ever tell you? 22 A No. 394 1 Q Mr. Foster sometimes went to The 2 White House residence to see Mrs. Clinton? 3 A I have no knowledge of that. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did Mr. Foster sometimes leave The 7 White House compound with Mrs. Clinton? 8 A I have no idea who he left with. 9 Q Do you know if he had any meetings 10 with her outside of The White House? 11 A I have no idea. 12 Q Mr. Foster sometimes talk about 13 Mrs. Clinton with you? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 15 THE WITNESS: Only at one time. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q What did he say? 18 A He asked that I return the plant 19 that Mrs. Clinton's secretary gave me while 20 they were gone for a week and to ensure that 21 it got back there timely and that it was 22 watered well. 395 1 Q So Mr. Foster was asked to water 2 Mrs. Clinton's plant? 3 A No, he asked me to water the plant. 4 Q For Mrs. Clinton. 5 A He asked me to water the plant and 6 ensure that it was returned to their offices. 7 Q So let me get this straight. 8 Mrs. Clinton sent a plant over so Mr. Foster 9 could have it watered for her? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form of 11 the question. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: No. Her secretary 14 brought it over and asked if we would tend it 15 while both of them were gone; and he was very 16 concerned that it got watered properly and 17 that it was returned immediately. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q While the Clintons were gone? 20 A While Mrs. Clinton and her 21 secretary were gone. 22 MR. MILLS: I want the record to 396 1 reflect that Mr. Klayman is laughing about 2 something, just so it's complete. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I am. You're right. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: As long as he does 5 it on his own time. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever have a discussion with 8 Mrs. Pond where Mrs. Pond recommended 9 retaining Administration-friendly lawyers? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: No, we never had such 12 a discussion. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you know of any such discussion 15 in The White House? 16 A No, I do not. 17 Q You don't remember one way or the 18 other? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I never discussed 21 any Administration or legal counsel. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 397 1 Q Did you do any filing for Bill 2 Kennedy? 3 A No, I did not do any filing for 4 him, per se. 5 Q What do you mean by "per se"? 6 A As in placing a piece of paper in a 7 folder for him. I placed a folder into a 8 safe for him once but that is all. 9 Q What safe was that? 10 A It was a safe located in his, as 11 designated in the diagram in his office. 12 Q Where on the diagram? 13 A At the bottom it says "Safes." 14 Q This is Exhibit 10? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q In his office. 17 A That's correct. 18 Q It says "Safes." 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Which safe? There's four there. 21 A The one that would be closest to 22 his round table. 398 1 Q The one at the top. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you have the combination for 4 that safe? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q How did you get into the safe? 7 A It was open. 8 Q Was it always open? 9 A I have no idea. 10 Q What did he ask you to put in the 11 safe? 12 A He asked me to place a folder into 13 the second drawer of the safe. 14 Q What did that folder look like? 15 A I didn't look. 16 Q You closed your eyes when he gave 17 you the folder? 18 A No, sir. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't 21 close my eyes. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 399 1 Q How big was the folder? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q Do you have a clue? 4 A No, I have no clue because I didn't 5 look at it. 6 Q You looked to the side. 7 A I suppose you'd say I could, 8 peripherally, yes. 9 Q So you took it and you looked to 10 the side and you put it into the safe? 11 A Or I might have looked to the other 12 side but I didn't look at the folder. 13 Q Was it Manila in color? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Do you know what was in the folder? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q Do you know why Mr. Kennedy gave it 18 to you to put in the safe? 19 A Because I was closer to the safe 20 than he was. 21 Q Did you lock the safe behind you? 22 A No, sir. 400 1 Q Did you ever put anything else in 2 the safe? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Did you ever do any other what you 5 call filing? 6 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 7 the question. 8 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: Not for Mr. Kennedy, 10 no. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you ever see any envelopes when 13 you worked at The White House that were 14 marked or labeled "Bill Kennedy-Janet Reno"? 15 A I did. 16 Q You did. 17 A I saw envelopes, yes. 18 Q When did you see that? 19 A When I worked in the West Wing. 20 Q What were the circumstances of your 21 seeing them? 22 A They were located in the safe that 401 1 we spoke of. 2 Q The safe that was found in 3 Nussbaum's office that Foster used? 4 A Mr. Foster didn't use it. I used 5 it. 6 Q That you used on his behalf? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q When did you see those envelopes? 9 A I don't know what point in time. 10 Q Did you put those envelopes in 11 there? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q Do you know who did? 14 A I do not. 15 Q What color were those envelopes? 16 A They were Goldcraft. 17 Q Manila-type envelopes? 18 A No, sir. They were a gold color. 19 Q Did they have a marking on it 20 Confidential or For Your Eyes Only, anything 21 like that? 22 A Mr. Kennedy's did. 402 1 Q Did you ask anybody what these 2 envelopes were all about? 3 A No. 4 Q Were those envelopes in the safe 5 when Mr. Foster died? 6 A I don't recall if they were in the 7 safe the day he died. 8 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster was 9 trying to give Janet Reno information about 10 what was going on in The White House? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MR. MILLS: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 14 conversations he had with Ms. Reno nor the 15 contents. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you know whether or not those 18 envelopes were left to give to Ms. Reno and 19 Mr. Kennedy in the event of some mishap? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 403 1 THE WITNESS: I do not know the 2 reason why they were in the safe or what 3 their intended reason were to be. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did Mr. Kennedy ever say to you, "I 6 want to send some information to Ms. Reno in 7 the event that I die"? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 10 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 11 THE WITNESS: No, he never said 12 that to me. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did he ever express to you a fear 15 that someone could try to kill him? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did he ever say to you anything to 22 the effect "There are some things that you 404 1 never should know about for your own good"? 2 A That I should not know about that? 3 Q Should not know about for your own 4 good. 5 A I don't recall him ever saying that 6 to me. 7 Q But he might have? 8 A He might have. 9 Q Did he ever look as if he was 10 fearful of anything? 11 A Mr. Kennedy? 12 Q No, Mr. Foster. 13 A No. 14 Q Did he ever look scared to you? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 17 MR. MILLS: To this whole line of 18 questioning. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 A No. He either appeared happy or 22 sad. 405 1 Q Did you observe Mr. Foster to be a 2 very expressive person or was he kind of 3 reserved? 4 A He was very reserved. 5 Q He didn't frequently wear his 6 emotions on his sleeve. Correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q So when he looked sad there must 9 have been, based on your experience, 10 something really wrong? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: To what degree of 14 wrong or to what degree of sadness, I have no 15 idea. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q But that was unusual when you 18 observed him to be sad. 19 A It was. 20 Q You took that to mean that 21 something very serious was happening to him. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 406 1 THE WITNESS: No, I did not draw a 2 conclusion if it was serious or not. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q After he died, you of course drew 5 that conclusion. 6 A No, nor did I then. 7 Q Do you know of anyone who would 8 have wanted him dead? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form, 11 relevancy. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I never met 13 anyone. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Based on your experience in working 16 with Mr. Foster did you come to learn that he 17 was a very ethical person? 18 A Probably in the most extreme of 19 ways. 20 Q How so? 21 A The example regarding the potted 22 plant from the First Lady's office, it was so 407 1 imperative to him that it be returned 2 immediately, that it was not ours and we 3 should not keep it, it should go back to 4 their offices. 5 Q Any other experiences that you had 6 that caused you to believe that you were 7 working with a very ethical lawyer? 8 A I believe that perhaps some of the 9 snippets of the exhibit that you read would 10 reflect that. 11 Q What exhibit? 12 MR. MILLS: It's Exhibit 4. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q This is the little speech that you 15 wrote for him or that you typed out for him? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I didn't 18 hear the question. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q This is the little snippets of a 21 speech that you wrote for him? 22 A These were excerpts from two 408 1 speeches that he wrote. One was for the 2 commencement ceremonies at the University of 3 Arkansas and one was to receive the Lawyer of 4 the Year in Arkansas. 5 Q Was this typed out on your 6 computer? 7 A It was. 8 Q Was it stored in a file in the 9 office? 10 A As in a physical file? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I don't remember if we did or did 13 not. 14 Q But you kept a copy of it for some 15 reason. 16 A I kept a copy of the most important 17 relevant items for myself. 18 Q Because you really liked him. 19 A I did. 20 Q In your experience you had never 21 worked with somebody as ethical as Mr. Foster 22 before. 409 1 MR. MILLS: Objection. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: No reflection on 3 anybody else. 4 MR. MILLS: Objection to the 5 possibility of that question. 6 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q He was an extremely fine man. 9 A He was. 10 Q In this little thing that you typed 11 out and you took with you, you took it with 12 you after he died so you could remember him? 13 A I suppose so. 14 Q Yes. He says, "Service is the rent 15 we pay for living. Service means you get as 16 well as you give. Your life is changed as 17 you change the lives of others. It is the 18 way we find meaning in our lives both 19 individually and collectively. 20 Dents to the reputation are 21 irreparable. Because there will also be 22 failures and criticisms and controversies and 410 1 lies and black clouds in the stormy nights 2 which you will not survive without your 3 family and friends. 4 Don't take your families for 5 granted. Stretch your talents. Reach beyond 6 the closest branch. Set your goals at the 7 farthest end of your reach. Take a risk. 8 Stick your neck out. 9 Challenge the status quo. Speak 10 out. Those who are afraid of failure are 11 condemned to complacency. Sometimes doing 12 the right thing is politically very 13 unpopular. 14 When the heat of controversy swarms 15 around you the inner conviction you did the 16 right thing is the best sleeping medicine. 17 Remember, the wind blows strongest at the top 18 of the mountain." This is the essence of 19 Vince Foster. Correct? 20 A I think so. 21 Q The finest person you've ever 22 worked for. 411 1 A I would definitely rank him up 2 there, definitely. 3 Q Did he write this shortly before he 4 died? 5 A No. The commencement ceremony was 6 somewhere probably in May, perhaps early 7 June, and the Lawyer of the Year was probably 8 around the same time. It was not shortly, 9 no. It was months before. 10 Q So based on what you know about 11 Mr. Foster, one of the most ethical people, 12 if not the most ethical people you've ever 13 met in the legal profession, if he was put 14 between a rock and a hard place and told to 15 do something that was illegal, based on your 16 experience he would have taken that to heart. 17 Correct? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy, 20 form. Obnoxious. 21 MR. MILLS: This is embarrassing 22 and annoying to the witness. 412 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 A It would only be speculation on my 4 part how he would react. 5 Q You can speculate because you had 6 an experience with him. 7 MR. MILLS: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How do you think he would have 10 reacted? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection as calling 12 for speculation. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: How do I think versus 15 how do I hope? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q How do you think he would react? 18 A I think he would have taken 19 anything to heart that was not, of less 20 character than he was. 21 Q If he was somebody that was asked 22 by Mrs. Clinton or anyone else to do 413 1 something that was illegal, based on your 2 experience, that could have caused him to 3 take his own life. Correct? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: To the form, 7 relevancy. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MR. MILLS: It's harassing, 10 embarrassing. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 12 THE WITNESS: I do not know. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But that's one explanation, isn't 15 it? 16 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 17 objections. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I can't 21 explain or speculate. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 414 1 Q But he's not the kind of guy that 2 ever would have done it. Correct? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Based on your experience? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I had no 14 crystal ball and still don't, whether it was 15 professional, whether it was personal, for 16 reasons that he took his life. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you think that Vince Foster, 19 everything that you know about him, is the 20 kind of person that would have done something 21 that was illegal and been able to live with 22 that? 415 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 3 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't believe 5 Mr. Foster would have done anything illegal. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Clearly, Mr. Foster believed that 8 dents to the reputation are irreparable. 9 A I think that's the most important 10 line on this piece of paper. 11 Q So irreparable that he would rather 12 not be on this earth? 13 MR. MILLS: Objection. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 15 A I cannot answer why he would not 16 want to be on this earth. I can't assume 17 that, whether it was professional or 18 personal. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Can I have a time 20 check, Mr. Holly? 21 THE WITNESS: 4:50. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you. 416 1 MR. MAZUR: What does that mean? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Give me a moment and 3 I'll tell you. 48 more minutes. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Now you are aware, are you not, 6 Ms. Gorham, that the misuse of information 7 from the FBI is illegal? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MR. MILLS: Relevance. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond to the question. 14 A I'm not sure what the statute or 15 what the code or public law states. 16 Q You did have an understanding when 17 you worked for The White House that taking 18 information out of an FBI file about somebody 19 and disclosing it to the public is illegal? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: That subject was 22 never broached with me, sir. 417 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q But was that your understanding? 3 A I don't know that anyone ever 4 explained that to me. 5 Q Let me go back to the documents you 6 produced this morning. Exhibit No. 5, "Vince 7 Foster One of the best and the brightest." 8 This was an editorial that appeared in the 9 Arkansas Democrat Gazette. You kept this 10 because this was a way to remember Vince as 11 well. Right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q This squares with everything you 14 just told me, that in your eyes he was the 15 best and the brightest? 16 A I would have to reread it but it 17 was perhaps the reason I selected it, it was 18 probably the most well written that I'd read 19 about him. 20 Q Right. Turning to your Government 21 Appointment Book. By the way, these excerpts 22 from his speech that I read to you, have they 418 1 ever been provided to anybody else, the 2 Senate, the Independent Counsel or anybody 3 else? 4 A I can't recall. I provided them to 5 my counsel but I don't remember. 6 Q When did you provide them to your 7 counsel? 8 A I believe, the best I can recall, 9 we received a subpoena for documents to be 10 produced from Independent Counsel, but I 11 don't know if it was July or August of '95. 12 That's a long time ago still. 13 Q Do you know whether these excerpts 14 have ever been discussed in newspaper 15 articles or publicly? 16 A If they've ever been discussed by 17 me or -- 18 Q Anybody. 19 A I would assume that they're public 20 knowledge. They were excerpted in newspaper 21 clippings in The White House and read by the 22 Washington Bureau here. 419 1 Q Let's turn to your calendar. I'm 2 looking at the entry for January 26th, 10:30. 3 Did you make that entry? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q Do you know who did? 6 A I do not. 7 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster had 8 a drug test on that date? 9 A No. I don't. 10 Q Entry at 5:00 p.m. Ethics 11 Orientation OEOB 4:50. Did you make that 12 entry? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Were you working for Mr. Foster at 15 this time? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q This is somebody else's entry. 18 A That's correct. 19 Q There is an entry on January 27th, 20 Foster - Rubin, Bernie Nussbaum - lunch 21 at 12:00. Do you know anything about those 22 entries, what they're about? 420 1 A No, sir. 2 Q Do you know a Philippe B. Jenney? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know Brian Atwood? 5 A No. 6 Q Tom Donilon? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know, there's an entry on 9 January 29th at 3:30 with Zeldin and 10 diGenova. Were you working for Mr. Foster 11 then? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q Do you know what happened then? 14 A No, I don't. 15 Q What was the date you started again 16 with Mr. Foster? 17 A About March 8th. 18 Q Do you know whose handwriting this 19 is? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Do you have any inkling? 22 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, objection to 421 1 form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you ever meet a Mark Grubmeyer? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you know who he is? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Look at the entry on 8 February 7th, 3:45, McLarty and Mrs. C in 9 Mac's office. 10 MR. MAZUR: February 7th? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: February 5th. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know what that meeting was 14 about? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you know if there was a meeting 19 on that date? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q February 9th, Lanny Davis, 8:00 22 a.m. Did you ever meet a Lanny Davis? 422 1 A Not that I recall meeting 2 Mr. Davis, no. 3 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster ever 4 met with him? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q 10:45, February 16th, Gary Aldrich, 7 do you know whose hand writing that is? 8 A No, sir. 9 Q Below it it says Personnel Room 6 10 OEOB Linda or Laurie. Is that in reference 11 to Linda Tripp? 12 A I have no knowledge. 13 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Next page, February 18th, 12:00 16 p.m., entry for Guido Calabresi. Do you know 17 who Guido Calabresi is? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you ever meet a Guido 20 Calabresi? 21 A No. 22 Q February 25th, 10:30 a.m., Davis 423 1 and Meisner. Do you know whether a meeting 2 took place with Mr. Foster and Davis and 3 Meisner on that day? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection, no 5 foundation. 6 THE WITNESS: No, sir -- 7 MR. MAZUR: I don't see that on 8 there. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: February 25th, 10:30 10 a.m. Davis and Meisner. 11 MR. MAZUR: I think it says Doris 12 Meisner. Maybe it's Davis. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you know a Doris Meisner? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Do you know a Davis and Meisner? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know a Betsy Cavendish? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know a Drew Davis? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you know a Richard Robbins? 424 1 A No. 2 Q Have you ever met an Alexis Herman? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Where did you meet her? 5 A She worked in the West Wing. 6 Q Did you ever see her in the 7 presence of Mr. Foster? 8 A I can't remember if I did or did 9 not. 10 Q How did you come in contact with 11 Alexis Herman? 12 A She worked down the hallway from 13 me. 14 Q Was she sometimes in the office? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 16 relevancy. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall if she 18 visited Mr. Foster or not. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Do you know whether the two of them 21 ever had any dealings? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 425 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Tell me when your handwriting first 4 appears in March. 5 A On March 8th at 9:15 a.m. 6 Q And 2:00. Now on March 8th you 7 have David Watkins. What does it say there 8 at 10:00? 9 A David Watkins, White House 10 Admin, 2500, computers. 11 Q What is that all about? 12 A That was my first day of 13 employment. Perhaps I was to report to those 14 offices and fill out forms. 15 Q What was the entry about computers 16 about? 17 A I don't recall. 18 Q Did you have a computer assigned to 19 you that day? 20 A I don't remember if there was one 21 that day or not. 22 Q 2:00 p.m., Capricia. Who was 426 1 Capricia? 2 A I would assume it's the first name 3 of Capricia Marshall. 4 Q Who was she at the time? 5 A She was the assistant to the 6 President or the First Lady. 7 Q Why was she marked down for 2:00 8 p.m.? 9 A I don't know if it was for me or 10 for Mr. Foster. 11 Q Do you know what it was about? 12 A No. 13 Q Who is F. Bronson van Wyck, 10:30, 14 March 9th? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q March 10th, 10:30, is that your 17 entry or is that somebody else's? 18 A No, that's mine. 19 Q What does it say? 20 A "Watkins, Lindsey, Stephanoupulous, 21 Paster re White House tech at Paster's." 22 Q What was that about? 427 1 A I would have no idea. 2 Q Pastor, could it be? 3 A It could be. 4 Q Is that generically a pastor or is 5 that somebody whose name is Pastor? 6 A I think it's the name of Pastor 7 misspelled. 8 Q It's the name of a clergy. 9 A No. It's the name of a White House 10 employee. 11 Q What did he do? 12 A I don't remember an exact title. 13 Q The next day, meeting 2:00 p.m. 14 March 11, Magaziner, Neuwirth. Do you know 15 what that meeting was about? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Was it about Hillary Clinton's 18 health care task force? 19 A I would have no idea. 20 Q And 1:15, Justice, is that relating 21 to the Justice Department? 22 A I don't know. 428 1 Q Who is Donald Shultz? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll just interject a 3 standard relevancy objection going item by 4 item through a calendar. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I know you're not 6 supposed to do that in a deposition. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Not when there's no 8 relevance to it. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Unless you ask the 10 question you don't know the relevance, do 11 you? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: I think there needs 13 to be a basis for relevance before you ask 14 the question. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that obnoxious, is 16 that the basis for your objection? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: It's an objection. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Turn to the page March 15th, 21 Catherine Hughes. Who is that? 22 A I don't know. 429 1 Q 1:15, Richard May. Was that your 2 ex-husband? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q You were supposed to call him? 5 A I don't know why that is there. 6 Q And 2:15, HRC, does that refer to 7 Hillary Clinton? 8 A They're certainly her initials, but 9 I don't know what it refers to. 10 Q Mr. Foster was supposed to meet 11 with her at 2:15? 12 MR. MILLS: Objection, foundation, 13 form of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q 3:00 o'clock the next day, 17 March 17th, who is Bill Marshal? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q What does it say underneath that? 20 A It appears to say Alan Kreczko. 21 Q Who is he? 22 A I don't remember. 430 1 Q March 19th, 9:00 a.m., Betsy Pond. 2 What was that entry about? 3 A That is the day or the Friday 4 before Monday that Betsy Pond was to enter on 5 duty working in The White House. 6 MR. MAZUR: As to what? I'm sorry. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 8 MR. MAZUR: I didn't hear you. 9 THE WITNESS: That was the day that 10 I was either to wave in Betsy for the 11 following Monday or that might have been her 12 first day of employment. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q The entry at 7:00 p.m. on 15 March 21st Betsy Wright, what does it say, at 16 Wexler's? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is that a restaurant? 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q Did you have dinner with Betsy 21 Wright that day? 22 A No, it's not for me. 431 1 Q Was that Mr. Foster? 2 A I believe it might have been. 3 Q Do you know why they were having 4 dinner? 5 A No. 6 Q Do know who Betsy Wright is? 7 A No, I don't. 8 Q Have you ever read anything about 9 Betsy Wright gathering information on alleged 10 relationships of the President with women, 11 have you ever heard anything like that? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 13 MR. MILLS: Objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Does that refresh your 16 recollection? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q Betsy Wright visited The White 19 House, did she not? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Do you know whether Betsy Wright 22 ever had access to FBI files? 432 1 A I would have no idea. 2 Q The next day, Betsy Pond, 8:00 3 a.m., do you know what that reference is 4 about? 5 A I think that's probably Betsy 6 Pond's first day. 7 Q 10:30, what does that say? 8 A Hubbell and McFadden. 9 Q Who is McFadden? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q 9:00 a.m. on March 23rd, what's 12 listed there? 13 A Serum to health unit. 14 Q What is it? 15 A Serum to health unit. 16 Q Serum? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What's that about? 19 A Taking my allergy serum to the 20 health unit so that they could administer 21 injections for me. 22 Q Who is Elizabeth Pugh? 433 1 A The name doesn't ring a bell. 2 Q 5:00 p.m. David Anderson, do you 3 know who he is? 4 A No, I don't. 5 Q He's a lawyer at the Justice 6 Department, right? 7 A I have no idea. 8 Q Jeffrey Gutman, do you know who he 9 is? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you know that David Anderson is 12 a lawyer on this case for the Justice 13 Department? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 15 answered. 16 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster ever 19 discussed anything with Mr. Anderson about 20 what he was doing at The White House? 21 A No, sir, I would have no idea. 22 Q March 26th, 10:15, call JK. What 434 1 does that mean? 2 A JK are the initials of a partner at 3 the law firm. 4 Q What law firm? 5 A Of Dow, Lohnes & Albertson, former 6 partner. 7 Q Why were you calling him? 8 A Perhaps to say hello or have lunch. 9 Q Had anything happened that caused 10 you to seek legal counsel at that time? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q 1:00 p.m. shot, what does that 15 mean? 16 A To remind me to get an allergy 17 shot. 18 Q March 31st, 9:45 a.m., David 19 Anderson again. Is that your handwriting? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Do you know why Foster was having a 22 meeting with David Anderson? 435 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Was there a meeting between Foster 6 and Anderson? 7 A I do not know if one occurred. 8 Q Do you know who Gutman was? 9 A No. 10 Q They were meeting on the health 11 care task force matter, weren't they? 12 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 13 answered, form. 14 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea 15 if they were meeting or what the nature of 16 the meeting was if it actually existed. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Who is Ed Hall? 19 A I have no idea. 20 Q What does it say next to Ed Hall? 21 A Pickering File. 22 Q What is the Pickering File? 436 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q Is that an FBI file? 3 A I don't remember. I only remember 4 the name. 5 Q You don't know one way or the 6 other. 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Do you know what happened if 9 anything with regard to that file? 10 A No. 11 Q Go to the next page. At 3:30 it 12 says on April 2nd, Berman, Cardozo. Was 13 there a meeting with those people at that 14 time? 15 A I don't know if a meeting occurred 16 or not. It's on the calendar. 17 Q Do you know if Mr. Foster ever had 18 any dealings with Michael Berman? 19 A No, I don't know if he did. 20 Q Do you know what Michael Berman 21 does? 22 A No. 437 1 Q If I was to tell you that he was 2 head of Opposition Research at the DNC, would 3 that refresh your recollection? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Do you know whether Mr. Foster ever 9 had contact with anyone at the DNC? 10 A No, I do not know who he had 11 contact with. 12 Q Did you ever see anybody from the 13 DNC, meaning Democratic National Committee, 14 at The White House? 15 A I would not know who, if they 16 belonged to the DNC or not. 17 Q Cardozo, does that refer to Michael 18 Cardozo? 19 A I don't remember if it does or not. 20 Q You know of a Michael Cardozo, 21 don't you? 22 A I've only heard the name before. 438 1 Q Are you aware that Mr. Foster was 2 with Mr. Cardozo the weekend before he died? 3 A No, I was not. 4 Q 4:00 p.m., April 5th, what does 5 that say? 6 A Watkins re Travel Here -- or Hire. 7 Q That's your handwriting, right? 8 A No, sir. 9 Q Excuse me? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q That's not your handwriting. 12 A That is correct. 13 Q Do you know who made that entry? 14 A No, I do not. 15 Q Is that Mr. Foster's handwriting? 16 A No. 17 Q Does that refresh your recollection 18 as to whether or not there was a meeting or 19 meetings in Mr. Foster's office concerning 20 the Travel Office? 21 A Not at all. 22 Q Does "here" refer to in 439 1 Mr. Foster's office? 2 A I don't know if that's "here" or 3 "hire" without an "I." 4 Q Could it mean fire? 5 A I have no idea. 6 Q Next day, 2:30, April 8th, Watkins, 7 Gearan Pasteur -- 8 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, what date 9 again? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q April 8. Watkins, Gearan, Pasteur, 12 Lindsey et al. re Computer Recommen. Is this 13 your handwriting? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Do you know whose it is? 16 A I do not. 17 Q Do you know what that's about? 18 A I don't. 19 Q Could that refer to setting up a 20 computer to put FBI files on? 21 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 22 the question. 440 1 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Excuse me, 3 Mr. Klayman. We're missing a page over here. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's not my 5 fault. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm not suggesting 7 it's your fault, Mr. Klayman. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't you borrow 9 the page from counsel who made the copies. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: We're just trying to 11 find-- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: You always blame me, 13 so I'm defensive. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Quite the opposite, 15 Mr. Klayman. Does anybody have the relevant 16 page to take a look at? 17 MR. MAZUR: Yes, I have the 18 relevant page. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you, 20 Mr. Mazur. 21 MR. MILLS: Do you have it there? 22 MR. MAZUR: I gave mine up before 441 1 and I never got it back. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Do you now have a 3 copy with the right page? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Off the record. I 5 don't want this to be taken off our time. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: No, we're fine. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to take a 8 break. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: No, no need for a 10 break. Let's go. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I know when offered 12 the choice of using time for Judicial Watch 13 or making a copy, I guess you can see how we 14 go. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Next page, April 12, entry 12:00 17 p.m. Barnett, Accountants, do you know what 18 that's about? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Is that your handwriting? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q It says Tax Return. Does that 442 1 reflect that Foster was working on the 2 Clintons' tax return? 3 A No, sir. I think it only reflects 4 names and addresses. 5 Q Do you know whose handwriting that 6 is? 7 A I do not. 8 Q Let's go over to April 14th, 12:15 9 and 12:30, HRC. Is that your handwriting? 10 A It is. 11 Q There was a meeting with Hillary 12 Clinton on that date? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Excuse me. Do you remember seeing 15 Hillary Clinton in the office that day? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q At the top it says Linda Tripp, 18 taxes. What's that about? 19 A I do not recall. 20 Q Is that your handwriting? 21 A It is. 22 Q Why did you put an exclamation 443 1 after taxes? 2 A It was probably so I would turn in 3 my own tax return. 4 Q Then the next day, April 15th, it 5 says Linda, right, is that your handwriting? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Why did you put "Linda" there? 8 A I don't remember. 9 Q Look above. What does it say 10 at 8:00 a.m.? 11 A Safe on right. 12 Q What does that mean? 13 A I don't remember. 14 Q Is that your handwriting? 15 A It is. 16 Q At 6:30 it says Gearan. Is that 17 your handwriting? 18 A It is. 19 Q What was that about? 20 A I do not remember. 21 Q Look at the next page, 5:45, 22 April 19th, McLarty. Did you make that 444 1 entry? 2 A I believe that's my scribble. 3 Q Excuse me? 4 A I believe that's my scribble. 5 Q Was there a meeting with McLarty 6 then? 7 A I do not know. 8 Q And 10:00 a.m. the next day, what 9 does that say? 10 A It says, "All my love forever." 11 Q Did you write that? 12 A I did. 13 Q What's that in reference to? 14 A It's in reference to how I signed a 15 card through a flower order for Mr. Foster to 16 send to his wife on their anniversary. 17 Q Cheryl Mills, 7:45, Buy Cynthia 18 Lunch. Did you put that entry in there? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What's that about? 21 A I don't remember. 22 Q 2:00 p.m., is that your entry? 445 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was that about? 3 A I don't remember. 4 Q 10:00 a.m. the next day, 5 April 21st, Watkins/Berman Office. Did you 6 make that entry? 7 A I did. 8 Q Was there a meeting about the 9 Travel Office on that date? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Do you know if the meeting took 12 place? 13 A No, I do not. 14 Q 3:00 p.m. the previous day, 15 April 20th, is that your entry? 16 A It is. 17 Q What does that say? 18 A Room 208 NSC Extension 4282. 19 Q It says Jim something. 20 A Oh, I'm sorry. I'm on the wrong 21 day, pardon me. Jim Farrow, NSC, 22 extension 5127. 446 1 Q Look at April 27th, 3:30, what does 2 that say? 3 A Leave Early. 4 Q Is that for you or Mr. Foster? 5 A For myself. 6 Q April 30th, 4:00 p.m., Phil 7 Anderson, did you know a Phil Anderson? 8 There are several entries for Mr. Anderson 9 that day. 10 A I don't recall if he was an 11 attorney from Arkansas. 12 Q Do you know what the meeting was 13 about? Was there a meeting? 14 A I don't recall if there was or not. 15 Q May 10th, 5:00 p.m., Chief of 16 Staff. Was that your entry? 17 A I'm sorry, May 10? 18 Q Yeah. 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know what that's about? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q Next entry, May 13th, 6:00 p.m., 447 1 did you make that entry? 2 A Yes, that's my handwriting. 3 Q What does that say? Does it say 4 Ambassador Rabinowitz? 5 A Well, it might. 6 Q Do you know Ambassador Rabinowitz? 7 A No. But if that is a "K" on the 8 end. 9 Q I'm sorry. Flip back to May 5th, 10 entry at 11:45. Did you make that entry? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What does that say? 13 A 5019 Klingle, Ambassador Kantor. 14 Q Did a meeting take place with 15 Ambassador Kantor on that day? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q You don't know what that's about? 18 A No, sir, I don't recall. 19 Q 9:30 a.m. on May 8th, did you make 20 that entry? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Was there a meeting in the Oval 448 1 Office that day? 2 A There was not. 3 Q What is that about? 4 A That is a note to bring a friend of 5 mine in to go to the Oval Office for the 6 Saturday address. 7 Q Flip back to May 10th at 5:00 p.m. 8 Is that your entry, is that your handwriting? 9 A No, sir, it's not. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 11 answered. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Does it say Watkins and Maggie 14 there? 15 A It says Watkins, but I really can't 16 read the last words. I can't make it out. 17 Q Do you know what it's about? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q May 28th, 2:30, is that your 20 handwriting? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What does that say? 449 1 A It looks like Maggie. 2 Q What happened with Maggie that day? 3 There's also an entry, is there not, at 7:15? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection, compound. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you make the entry at 7:15? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What happened with Maggie? 9 A I don't remember. 10 Q There were some meetings scheduled 11 with Maggie Williams that day? 12 A I have no idea. 13 Q Does this refresh your recollection 14 as to how many times you saw her in the 15 office? 16 A No, it doesn't. 17 Q Entry on May 27th at 7:00, what 18 does that say? 19 A 5121 Tilden Street. 20 Q What is that? 21 A An address. 22 Q Do you know whose address? 450 1 A I do not. 2 Q Turn to the next page. 3 June 2nd, 10:00 a.m., what does that say? 4 A Gary, Kathy at Maggie's. 5 Q Do you know what that's about? 6 A No, I don't. 7 Q Is that about referring to Maggie 8 Williams? 9 A Possibly. 10 Q Turn to the next page. Meeting 11 at 10:00 a.m., June 3rd, Todd/Podeska. Do 12 you know what that's about? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q You've heard of a John Podeska, 15 haven't you? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Is that your handwriting? 18 A It is not. 19 Q Do you know whose it is? 20 A That is Vince's. 21 Q Todd, does that refer to Chris 22 Todd? 451 1 A I would have no idea. 2 Q 12:00, Maggie's Office re Social 3 Office. Is that your handwriting? 4 A It is. 5 Q Do you know what that was about? 6 A No, I don't. 7 Q Next day, Linda, what does that say 8 at the top? June 4th. 9 A Linda & Alan, LR trip file. 10 Q What is that about? 11 A Perhaps that's Little Rock trip 12 file. 13 Q It's what? 14 A Little Rock trip file. 15 Q What is the reference to Linda, is 16 that Linda Tripp? 17 A Linda? No, I have no idea. 18 Q Does that refer to ordering up 19 Linda Tripp's FBI file? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 21 foundation, form. 22 THE WITNESS: No. it would mean 452 1 establishing a trip file for Mr. Foster to go 2 to Little Rock. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Meeting at 2:00 p.m., Maggie, Gary 5 in West Wing. Do you know what that's about? 6 A That's my writing but I don't know 7 what it's about. 8 Q June 8th, 11:00 a.m., is that your 9 handwriting? 10 A No. 11 Q Can you read what it says? 12 A Foster/HRC, maybe HC or NC. 13 Q What does it say under that? 14 A Something, maybe reform. I can't 15 quite -- 16 Q Tort Reform? 17 A It might be Tort Reform. 18 Q Do you know whose handwriting that 19 is? 20 A Mr. Foster's. 21 Q Did they have a meeting that day on 22 Tort Reform? 453 1 A I don't know. 2 Q 2:00 p.m., is that your 3 handwriting? 4 A No, it's not. 5 Q Maggie/DW, could that mean David 6 Watkins? 7 A It could. 8 Q Do you know whose handwriting that 9 is? 10 A Mr. Foster's. 11 Q Next day it looks like that 12 meeting, if that's what it was, was switched 13 to 3:30 on June 9th. Correct? 14 A I don't know if it was a meeting, 15 just simply arrows pointing to that day. 16 Q Is that your handwriting on 3:30 on 17 June 9th? 18 A It is. 19 Q Does that refresh your recollection 20 about any meeting with Maggie Williams and 21 David Watkins in Foster's office in and 22 around that time period? 454 1 A No, sir. 2 Q Next page, June 10. Whose 3 handwriting is that that says "Fried 4 Chicken"? 5 A Mine. 6 Q You wanted to get fried chicken 7 that day? 8 A No. I ordered that for Mr. Foster. 9 Q 5:00 p.m., June 16th, is that your 10 handwriting? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What's that about? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q What's VWF? 15 A Mr. Foster's initials. 16 Q Noble, is that Lawrence Noble? 17 A I would have no idea who that was. 18 Q Federal Election Commission? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Do you know Paul Grimes? 21 A No. 22 Q June 21st, 11:30, is that your 455 1 handwriting? 2 A Paul Grimes, yes. 3 Q No, 11:30. 4 A Oh, excuse me. Yes, it is. 5 Q Does that refer to Maggie Williams? 6 A I don't know who it refers to. 7 Q There was a meeting on that day? 8 A I don't know whether it was a 9 meeting or not. 10 Q Turn to July 1st, 4:00 p.m. Is 11 that your handwriting? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What does that say? 14 A Dallas Bar. 15 Q Do you know what that's in 16 reference to? 17 A He was to make a speech before the 18 Dallas Bar Association. 19 Q And 3:00 p.m. on July 2nd, what 20 does that say? Is that your handwriting? 21 A It is. 22 Q Does that say database? 456 1 A No. "Delta here." 2 Q "Delta here"? 3 A "Delta here." 4 Q What does it say on 11:00 a.m.? 5 A Homa. 6 Q What does that mean? 7 A I saw Homa for an arm wax. 8 Q Who is that? 9 A A woman who waxes my arms. 10 Q Oh, okay. I thought that was her 11 name. 12:00 p.m. July 7, Grilled 12 Cheese/tomato. You got a grilled cheese and 13 tomato sandwich for Mr. Foster? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection to the 15 relevance of that question. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: To all of these 20 questions. 21 THE WITNESS: No. I got a grilled 22 cheese/tomato sandwich for myself. 457 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you frequently write things like 3 that down because your memory is not that 4 good, you have to remember what you want to 5 eat that day so you write it down? 6 MR. MILLS: Objection. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, that's not the 9 reason. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Why do you write it down? 12 A It gave me an account of the days 13 that I charged food on my Navy Mess account. 14 Q Do you remember the day that 15 Mr. Foster died? 16 MR. MILLS: Objection. Are we 17 going to go back over that, Mr. Klayman? 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A I do. 21 Q What day was that? 22 A Tuesday, July 20th. 458 1 Q July 16th, entry at 8:15 a.m., what 2 does that mean? Did you write that? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What does that say? 5 A Umbrella at Beauty Salon. 6 Q That was for you. 7 A It was. 8 Q Next day, July 17th, 7:00 a.m., 9 what is that? 10 A The name of a friend who I invited 11 to the radio address in the Oval Office. 12 Q Entry at 8:15 a.m. 13 A The name of another friend I 14 invited at the same time. 15 Q Entry at 3:15, Tidewater Inn, is 16 that your handwriting? 17 A It is. 18 Q What does that refer to? 19 A That refers to the location where 20 Mr. Foster was that weekend. 21 Q Why did you write down where he was 22 that weekend? 459 1 A He asked me to take the phone 2 number and the room number in case I needed 3 to reach him. 4 Q Did he tell you why you may need to 5 reach him? 6 A I don't remember. 7 Q Was he concerned about going to the 8 Tidewater Inn? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q He went to the Tidewater Inn. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 12 form. 13 THE WITNESS: It's the number he 14 gave me. I never reached him though. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you try it? 17 A It was not necessary. 18 Q Do you know if he went there? 19 A No, I don't know if he arrived 20 there. 21 Q Do you know whether he took any 22 documents with him when he left? 460 1 A No, I do not recall what he took. 2 Q What does it say, No. 309 Easton, 3 what does that mean? 4 A That's the room number and that's 5 where the Tidewater Inn is located. 6 Q Tuesday, July 20th, what does it 7 say at 7:15 a.m.? 8 A Call KDS briefing. 9 Q Read the whole thing. 10 A Below that? Breakfast. BP, $2 11 danish. 12 Q What's that in reference to? 13 A All of that? Call KDS, which was a 14 law firm partner at Dow, Lohnes, who was to 15 have lunch with Vince that day and to call 16 him and cancel the luncheon. I bought 17 breakfast. I paid $2 and I bought danish. 18 Q Do you know why the two of them 19 were going to meet? 20 A No, I don't recall. 21 Q 12:00 p.m., KDS, who is KDS? 22 A The same as in 7:15. 461 1 Q So it was moved to lunch. 2 A No. This was to call KDS to cancel 3 the lunch that was scheduled for 12:00 4 o'clock. 5 Q And 3:15, yogurt, what does that 6 refer to? 7 A Again, I charged yogurt on my 8 account. 9 Q Now, July 21st we talked about 10 E-mail but what's the entry between 11:00 11 and 12:00? 12 A Work on SF-86. 13 Q Was that for you? 14 A It was. 15 Q At that point you already knew that 16 Vince Foster had died? 17 A Yes. 18 Q So why did you write down on that 19 day work on SF-86? 20 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I figured I probably 462 1 had more time now, now that I had no one to 2 work with. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did someone tell you that day to 5 work on your SF-86? 6 A Not that I remember, no. 7 Q Did someone say you better get that 8 straightened out because this whole office is 9 now going to come under scrutiny now that 10 Foster died, anything like that? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check, 15 Mr. Holly. 16 THE WITNESS: 5:29. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Anyone say, "You better get that 19 security issue straightened out because the 20 issue of your not having a security clearance 21 is going to come up in the investigation of 22 Foster's death"? 463 1 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Anything to that effect? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q What's the entry for photos? 6 A A reminder for me to check photos 7 of photos that were taken of me and Vince. 8 Q Who reminded you do to do that? 9 A Myself. 10 Q Photos that were in his office? 11 A It was a note to myself. No, a 12 note to myself of those events that we were 13 in public gatherings together. 14 Q At 5:00 p.m. what does it say? 15 A Shot. 16 Q Is that an allergy shot? 17 A It is. 18 Q For you. 19 A Yes. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, nine 21 minutes are left. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Klayman, are you 464 1 willing to give up your last nine minutes so 2 that other people can have some questioning 3 so we don't have to keep this witness over? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: No. I will give you 5 as much time as you want though after I'm 6 finished. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: It's a courtesy to 8 the witness, since the judge specifically in 9 response to a motion for a protective order 10 by them asked that we work out the six 11 hours -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand 13 why nine minutes is a big deal to you. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Nine minutes is left 15 until your six hours is up and I have very 16 few questions. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: The judge has already 18 ruled that we can have six hours. So you can 19 certainly take whatever time you want after 20 that. Please don't interrupt me. 21 THE WITNESS: I need to change tape 22 now. 465 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: Going off video 3 record at 5:30. 4 (Recess) 5 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 6 record at 5:31. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q July 22nd, 4:30, what does that 9 say? 10 A SRB. 11 Q What does that stand for? 12 A The initials of a girlfriend of 13 mine. 14 Q What's her name? 15 A Scarlett Bates. 16 Q Where does she work? 17 A I don't know where she works now. 18 Q Is she still in Washington, D.C.? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q What's her middle name? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q Is she a legal secretary, too? 466 1 A She was, but I don't know what she 2 does now. 3 Q Does she ever work at The White 4 House? 5 A No. 6 Q She was a good friend, right? 7 A She was a friend, 8 acquaintance/friend, yes. 9 Q Where did she work at any time? 10 A She worked at Wilmer Cutler. 11 Q Do you think she might still be 12 there? 13 A She might. 14 Q Scarlett Bates. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Why did you have her down for that 17 time? 18 A Perhaps I was meeting her after 19 work for dinner. 20 Q You've talked to her about your 21 White House experience, haven't you? 22 MR. MILLS: Objection. 467 1 THE WITNESS: No, I told her that I 2 worked at The White House. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Are you saying at dinner you never 5 discussed anything that you did at The White 6 House? 7 A I never discussed anything about 8 The White House with her other than I worked 9 there. 10 Q If we subpoena her she'll tell us 11 the same thing? 12 MR. MILLS: Objection, calls for 13 speculation. 14 THE WITNESS: Sir, I don't know 15 what she would tell you. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Turn to August 1st page. The 18 reference at 8:30 a.m., Dr. David what? 19 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry, what is the 20 date you are on? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: July 30th. 22 MR. MILLS: July 30th. 468 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: Dr. David Minertz. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Who is he? 5 A He is an eye doctor of my 6 daughter's. 7 Q Next page, 4:00 p.m., August 3rd, 8 Ethics Orientation, 450, is that your 9 handwriting? 10 A It is. 11 Q Did you have an ethics orientation? 12 A I don't recall if I -- I believe 13 that everyone was required to go to one, but 14 I don't remember if I kept that appointment. 15 Q Do you know what it was about? 16 A No. 17 Q What's the entry on the next day, 18 August 4th, 11:30 through 12:15, what's that 19 about? 20 A I have no idea. 21 Q August 19th, File Notary Papers. 22 Is that your handwriting? 469 1 A Yes. 2 Q Were you already a notary at that 3 time? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q You became a notary then. 6 A No, sir. 7 Q After you filed the papers. 8 A After I filed this application, 9 yes. 10 Q Why did you file it? 11 A To become a notary. 12 Q So you could notarize things for 13 Hillary Clinton? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 16 of that question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A No. 20 Q But you did notarize some things 21 for Hillary Clinton, didn't you? 22 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 470 1 answered. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Hasn't that question 3 been asked and answered before? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: You want to 5 cross-examine, I'll give you ten hours if you 6 want; please don't interrupt. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Could you 8 repeat the question? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you ever notarize anything for 11 Hillary Clinton? 12 A No, sir. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Does this refresh your recollection 16 as to whether you notarized anything that 17 came out of her office? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q SRB, is that your friend Scarlett 20 again? 21 A It is. 22 Q The next day, SRB, so you had an 471 1 encounter with Scarlett the next day, too? 2 A I don't know. I don't know if we 3 actually met that day or not. 4 Q What is the reference, is this your 5 handwriting "Notary" with an exclamation 6 mark? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Why is there an exclamation mark? 9 A I don't know if I was making a note 10 to myself that that perhaps might have been 11 the last date to file my application. 12 Q August 26th and 28th, SRB. That's 13 Scarlett again, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You got together with her on that 16 day, too. Right? 17 A I don't recall if we did. 18 Q Probably? 19 A Possibly not since it's marked 20 through. 21 Q In terms of when you got your 22 notary designation, you would notarize 472 1 anything for anybody that asked you. Right? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you charge for that at all? 4 A Only to people who'd come off the 5 street from my law firm. 6 Q But at The White House you did it 7 for free? 8 A I never notarized there. I didn't 9 receive my notary seal until about 10 October 30th. 11 Q September 27th, 1:00 p.m., is that 12 your handwriting? 13 MR. MILLS: Can I have the date 14 again? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q September 27th, 1:00 p.m. 17 Congressman Rangel. 18 A That appears to be that, yes. 19 Q What is that about? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q Turn to the entry on November 10th, 22 "Notary" with exclamation mark. Is that your 473 1 handwriting? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Why is there an exclamation mark? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Turn to the entry on 6 November 18th, 2:00 o'clock where it 7 says 1:30 "Notarize," is that your 8 handwriting? 9 A It is. 10 Q You notarized something on that 11 date, didn't you? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q You had your notary certificate at 14 that time, didn't you? 15 A I don't remember if they sent it to 16 me at that time. 17 Q Were you still at The White House 18 on November 21st? 19 MR. MILLS: November 21st? 20 November 21st. 21 THE WITNESS: On November 21st was 22 I at The White House? 474 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yes. 3 A No. 4 Q You were then working for Dow, 5 Lohnes? 6 A No. 7 Q Where were you? 8 A I was on vacation. 9 Q You had already left The White 10 House? 11 A That's correct. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check, 13 Mr. Holly. 14 THE WITNESS: 5:39. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: I have six hours. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: My time is up 17 according to your calculation. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: According to my 19 undisputed calculation, your time is up. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Without regard to 21 whether my time is really up or not, you may 22 cross-examine. 475 1 MS. SHAPIRO: I just have a couple 2 of questions. Let's take a two-minute break 3 and we'll be ready to go. 4 MR. MILLS: The witness will agree 5 to extend the six hours by about ten minutes 6 for the purpose of cross-examination without 7 waiving our right to conclude it at that 8 point. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: We also get a right 10 of redirect. 11 MR. MILLS: No. I'm only extending 12 it by ten minutes. You can work out amongst 13 yourselves if you can how much time they're 14 going to give you for redirect. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Mr. Mills, I 16 don't believe that you can unilaterally 17 decide to leave a deposition. So if they 18 have ten minutes and we have a reasonable 19 amount of redirect, absent a protective order 20 and reasonableness on the part of everybody 21 here, I would assume that you would stay. 22 MR. MILLS: No. I don't agree with 476 1 that. I think we do have a protective order. 2 Five minutes? 3 THE WITNESS: We're going off video 4 record at 5:40. 5 (Recess) 6 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 7 record at 5:46. 8 MR. MILLS: This is just to 9 reiterate that the witness is agreeing to 10 extend the deposition by ten minutes for the 11 purpose of cross and any redirect that may be 12 permitted and worked out among the parties. 13 Ms. Shapiro? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Before we start are 15 you going to leave time for us to redirect? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: I will see if I have 17 any time left; just as I asked you to leave 18 me time and you didn't provide me that 19 courtesy. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: The record is clear 21 that we get six hours of testimony here. If 22 you have a problem with that -- 477 1 MR. MILLS: You had six hours of 2 testimony. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: That's right, you had 4 six hours of testimony. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: On direct. I suggest 6 you might want to review the court's order on 7 that. 8 MR. MILLS: I have reviewed the 9 court's order, but thank you very much for 10 that advice. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Just let the record 12 reflect that if I don't get an adequate 13 opportunity to redirect we will be moving the 14 court to bring Ms. Gorham back and for any 15 other appropriate remedies for the effort. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Are we ready? 17 MR. MILLS: I certainly am. 18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR FBI AND EOP 19 BY MS. SHAPIRO 20 Q Ms. Gorham, Mr. Klayman asked you a 21 series of questions on direct about Linda 22 Tripp's testimony. Do you recall that? 478 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you recall a meeting that 3 occurred in the West Wing where you worked 4 that included Maggie Williams, Bill Kennedy, 5 Catherine Cornelius, Harry Tomasson, David 6 Watkins and Vince Foster? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I do not recall a 9 meeting with those individuals. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q Do you remember Linda Tripp ever 12 asking you about the subject of any meeting 13 and you writing down for her the words 14 "Travel Office"? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound, 16 leading. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 19 Q During your time at The White 20 House, either in the West Wing or the Old 21 Executive Office Building, did you have 22 contact with any FBI files or FBI information 479 1 that you knew of? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 3 foundation, leading. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 5 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 6 Q You testified that there were some 7 stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office. Is that 8 right? 9 A I did. 10 Q You testified that you didn't know 11 what those stacks were. Correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Do you know how high those stacks 14 were, approximately? 15 A No, I don't recall how high 16 specifically they were. 17 Q Do you recall if there were stacks 18 of things on the floor? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I do not remember 21 that there were any stacks on the floor, 22 simply only furniture. 480 1 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 2 Q Do you have any recollection of it 3 being difficult to navigate your way around 4 the floor in Mr. Kennedy's office? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 6 foundation, assumes facts not testified to, 7 leading. 8 THE WITNESS: No. There was no 9 difficulty to walk around his office. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q Do you have any memory of the 12 stacks being higher than or less than one 13 foot? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 15 assumes facts not in evidence. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that 17 the stacks were extraordinarily high, but 18 whether they were one foot or a foot and a 19 half or less than that, I really could not 20 specifically say. I really didn't take a 21 measure of that in any sense. 22 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 481 1 Q Did your work for either Ms. Mills 2 or Mr. Kennedy ever involve inputting 3 information from files into a database? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 5 foundation, leading. 6 THE WITNESS: No, it did not. 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q Have you ever told anybody that 9 your work involved inputting information from 10 files into a database? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 12 lacks foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 14 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 15 Q Had you ever described your job 16 anywhere in The White House to Linda Tripp as 17 primarily inputting data from files into a 18 computer? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 20 foundation, leading, vague and ambiguous. 21 THE WITNESS: I never described 22 that to Linda, no. 482 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Those are all the 2 questions I have. 3 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, you can 4 redirect, use all the rest of the time. 5 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 6 PLAINTIFFS 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q When you say you don't recall a 9 meeting between David Watkins, Catherine 10 Cornelius, Harry Tomasson and others, you 11 don't remember one way or the other, do you? 12 A No, sir. I would have no knowledge 13 of the reason that those folks were there, 14 indeed, if it was for a meeting or a meeting 15 occurred. 16 Q You're not saying there wasn't a 17 meeting, you just don't remember right now. 18 A No, sir I'm not saying that. I'm 19 telling you I would have no knowledge if a 20 meeting were to take place and if it were 21 what the meeting was about. 22 Q But Ms. Shapiro asked you whether 483 1 you knew of any such meeting. 2 A I understand. 3 Q That's different than the response 4 you just gave me. Correct? 5 A I understand. 6 Q So you weren't really responding to 7 her question, you were just responding to 8 your own view of what you knew? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. MILLS: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I can simply clarify 12 that and state again that when people 13 appeared in our office if they were going to 14 a meeting or indeed held a meeting, I had no 15 knowledge that a meeting was to take place or 16 that a meeting did take place. I only 17 acknowledged the fact that indeed that they 18 were in the office. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q So if you saw people in the suite 21 and they went into somebody's office you 22 didn't assume that was a meeting. 484 1 A Absolutely not. 2 Q But it may have been a meeting, you 3 just didn't assume anything. 4 A I don't assume anything. 5 Q I believe you testified when I 6 asked you the questions that you didn't 7 really have any recollection as to whether 8 you ever wrote anything down about a Travel 9 Office. 10 A No, sir. I never wrote anything 11 down about a Travel Office. 12 Q You don't remember doing it? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 14 mischaracterizes. 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: The question was with 17 regard to a meeting regarding the Travel 18 Office. Again, I would not know if a meeting 19 were taking place or if it did or the nature 20 of the meeting. So consequently, I would not 21 write down a message about what a meeting was 22 about. 485 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So all of that is hypothetical. 3 You don't know for sure whether you did or 4 you didn't, you just think you wouldn't have 5 done it? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 MR. MAZUR: Objection to form. 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Mischaracterizes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Correct? 12 A That would not be my practice, sir. 13 Q It doesn't mean it never happened, 14 though. Right? 15 A Sir, again, it was not my business 16 to know whether a meeting were to occur or a 17 meeting did occur and, consequently, there 18 would be no reason for me to write down on a 19 note what the nature of a meeting was about 20 because one follows the other, indeed. 21 Q But you don't have any memory with 22 regard to a specific event, only what your 486 1 practice was. Correct? 2 A Sir, again, that is my practice. I 3 would not have written down a note that said 4 "Travel Office" in regard to a meeting 5 because I would not know what that meeting 6 was about, if indeed a meeting took place. 7 Q So it's all based upon your 8 practice, not upon your actual knowledge. 9 A That is correct. 10 Q When you had lunch today, was 11 Ms. Shapiro present? 12 A She was present in the same 13 restaurant, yes. 14 Q Was she sitting at the same table? 15 A No. 16 Q Did she come over and talk to you? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you talk to Ms. Shapiro at all 19 today outside of the presence of this 20 conference room? 21 A I did. 22 Q When was that? 487 1 A I'm sorry, no. It was in this 2 conference room. It was in this conference 3 room. 4 Q Was I present at the time? 5 A I don't recall if you were or not. 6 Q What did you say to Ms. Shapiro? 7 A I said, "Yes, I would like a 8 cookie." 9 Q A what? 10 A "Yes, I would like a cookie." 11 Q Oh, a cookie. Did you say anything 12 else? 13 A No. 14 Q Is she representing you here today? 15 A Sir, I believe that she's 16 representing me as a former employee, in that 17 capacity at The White House Counsel's office. 18 Q Did you ask for her representation? 19 A No, I did not. 20 Q You've never seen an FBI file that 21 you know of, have you? 22 A No, I have not. 488 1 Q You wouldn't know one if you saw 2 one. 3 A That's correct. 4 Q So you may have actually seen files 5 that were FBI files, but you just don't know 6 that you saw them. Correct? 7 A I do not ever recall seeing any 8 information, any documentation that had the 9 word "FBI" or that even inferred or referred 10 to that. 11 Q Can you categorically say that of 12 all the files you saw while working in The 13 White House that there were no documents in 14 those files from the FBI? 15 A That's correct. I can say that. 16 MR. MILLS: Your time is up. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You looked into every file? 19 MR. MILLS: In fact, the time is 20 up. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not finished. 22 MR. MILLS: Time check. 489 1 THE WITNESS: 5:55. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: One minute. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not finished. 4 MR. MILLS: Well, there's only one 5 more minute to the deposition, so. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to 7 quibble with you. If I have to, I'll quibble 8 with you before the court. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you look into every file that 11 you ever came in contact with at The White 12 House? 13 A No. 14 Q So you don't know whether there was 15 FBI material in there or not. 16 A That is correct. 17 Q You don't really know what an FBI 18 file looks like. Correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q You wouldn't know an FBI file from 21 any other file, would you? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 490 1 answered. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 3 answered. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Correct? 6 A Sir, there are different categories 7 of files, and I review different files 8 everyday and as I did then. But I do not 9 remember any information regarding FBI or an 10 FBI file. 11 Q It is possible that you have a file 12 from the FBI but it doesn't say "FBI" on the 13 cover. Correct? 14 A It could be possible. 15 MR. MILLS: I think that's the 16 time. Time check, please. 17 THE WITNESS: 5:56. 18 MR. MILLS: That's it. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you walking out? 20 MR. MILLS: Thank you very much. 21 The deposition is over by court order. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record 491 1 reflect our position is it is not, and we 2 will be moving for appropriate relief? 3 MR. MILLS: You said you had a few 4 more questions and you asked several. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I have several more. 6 If you leave you will do so at your own 7 peril. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: My position is the 9 judge asked us to apportion six hours in the 10 spirit of civility and in deference to the 11 witness and he asked that we work it out, and 12 I asked you for time and you refused it. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: So you're walking 14 out, too? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm not walking out. 16 The deposition is concluded. You've used 17 your six hours. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it you're 19 walking out, it's our position. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Would you like us to 21 stay and chat, Mr. Klayman? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Get that on the 492 1 record. 2 THE WITNESS: We're going off the 3 record now? 4 MR. MILLS: We're off the record. 5 THE WITNESS: We're going off video 6 record. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I'm not off the 8 record. By the way, there was certain 9 information I asked for in camera. If you'd 10 like to produce it in camera, Mr. Mills, you 11 may do so in writing. 12 MR. MILLS: I'll contact you. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: In writing in camera 14 the answers to those questions. 15 MR. MILLS: I'll contact you about 16 that. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: So you're not 18 agreeing to do that? 19 MR. MILLS: There was still going 20 to be some discussion about that. I'll 21 consult with my client and I'll get back to 22 you about that. 493 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's another reason 2 why I object to this being terminated at this 3 time. 4 MR. MILLS: You should have covered 5 it during your six hours. The court 6 specifically ordered six hours. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll go on the basis 8 of what the court said. 9 MR. MILLS: Thank you. 10 THE WITNESS: We're off record. 11 MR. MILLS: We're off the record. 12 THE WITNESS: We're going off video 13 record at 5:58. 14 MR. MILLS: Thank you. 15 (Whereupon, at 5:58 p.m., the 16 deposition of DEBORAH GORHAM was 17 adjourned.) 18 * * * * * 19 20 21 22