UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA -------------------------x CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : : Plaintiffs : : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : INVESTIGATION et al., : : Defendants. : Afternoon Session -------------------------x Washington, D.C. Thursday, June 3, 1999 Continued deposition of DEBORAH L. GORHAM a witness, called for examination by counsel for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and agreement of counsel, continuing at approximately 1:13 p.m. at the offices of Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., Washington, D.C., before Lynell C.S. Abbott, notary public in and for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf on the respective parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE THOMAS FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 Federal Programs Branch Civil Division 11 United States Department of Justice 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor 12 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-5302 13 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE 16 Office of General Counsel Federal Bureau of Investigation 17 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. Washington, D.C. 20535 18 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE FRANK DiSTEFANO, ESQUIRE 4 Williams & Connolly 725 12th Street N.W. 5 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5175 6 7 On behalf of The White House: 8 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 9 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 10 (202) 456-5079 11 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 12 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE 13 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 51 West 52nd Street 14 New York, New York 10019-6618 (212) 403-1000 15 16 On behalf of Deponent: 17 DAVID E. MILLS, ESQUIRE STEVEN E. WAGNER, ESQUIRE 18 Dow, Lohnes & Albertson 1200 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W., Suite 800 19 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 776-2865 20 21 * * * * * 22 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7 4 Counsel for FBI and EOP 477 5 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: 6 Counsel for Plaintiffs 482 7 * Questions on page 52, line 8; page 131, line 4; page 145, line 2; page 216, line 14; page 219, 8 line 20; page 243, line 8; page 292, line 1 and page 292, line 18 marked per request. 9 GORHAM DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 10 No. 1 - Notice of Deposition 7 11 No. 2 - November 8, 1993, Letter, 11 12 Gorham to Nussbaum 13 No. 3 - November 8, 1993, Letter, 11 Nussbaum to Gorham 14 No. 4 - Notes 11 15 No. 5 - Arkansas Democrat Gazette, 11 16 Article 17 No. 6 - 1993, United States Government 12 Appointment Book 18 No. 7 - Drawing 25 19 No. 8 - Miniscript, Tripp Deposition 307 20 No. 9 - Investigation of Whitewater, 316 21 No. 10 - Diagram 381 22 * * * * * 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of Deborah 4 Gorham taken by counsel for the Plaintiff in 5 the matter of Cara Leslie Alexander v. the 6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al., in 7 the U.S. District Court for the District of 8 Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held in the 9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, 10 Southwest, Washington, D.C. on this date, 11 June 3, 1999 and at the time indicated on the 12 video screen which is 10:07 a.m. 13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm 14 the videographer. The court reporter today 15 is Lynell Abbott from the firm of Beta 16 Reporting. Will counsel now introduce 17 themselves. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 19 General Counsel and Chairman of Judicial 20 Watch. 21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president 22 of Judicial Watch. 6 1 MR. MILLS: David Mills at Dow, 2 Lohnes & Albertson, representing Deborah 3 Gorham. 4 MR. WAGNER: Steven Wagner at Dow, 5 Lohnes & Albertson, representing Deborah 6 Gorham. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro 8 from the Department of Justice, representing 9 the Executive Office of the President and the 10 FBI. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, also 12 with the Department of Justice and also 13 representing EOP and the FBI. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 15 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 16 Lady. With me today to my rear left is Frank 17 DiStefano, a summer associate at Williams & 18 Connolly. 19 MR. MAZUR: I'm Bob Mazur, Wachtell 20 Lipton Rosen & Katz, and I represent Bernard 21 Nussbaum. 22 MS. BENJAMIN: Tracy Benjamin, 7 1 summer associate. 2 MR. PIFER: John Pifer, FBI General 3 Counsel's office. 4 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson, 5 White House Counsel's office. 6 THE WITNESS: Will the court 7 reporter please swear in the witness? 8 Whereupon, 9 DEBORAH L. GORHAM 10 was called as a witness and, having been 11 first duly sworn was examined and testified 12 as follows: 13 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Gorham, I'm going 15 to show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 16 mark as Exhibit 1. 17 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 1 18 was marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Exhibit 1 is Plaintiffs' Notice of 21 Deposition of Deborah Gorham. Attached to it 22 is a subpoena requiring your attendance here 8 1 today on June 3, 1999. Attached to that 2 subpoena is a request for documents which is 3 listed as Exhibit A. Have you seen this 4 document before? 5 A I have. 6 Q When did you see it? 7 A I reviewed it again last night. 8 Q Did you have an opportunity to 9 review the request for documents which is 10 appended to the subpoena? 11 A I did. 12 Q Did you search for the documents 13 that you were asked to bring to this 14 deposition? 15 A I did not have to search for any 16 documents. I had none at home to bring in. 17 Q Do you have documents elsewhere 18 that may be responsive to the subpoena? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 MR. MILLS: I can respond to that. 21 This is David Mills for Deborah Gorham. We 22 do have documents to produce, Mr. Klayman, to 9 1 you today, consisting of a resignation letter 2 by Deborah Gorham, a letter by Bernie 3 Nussbaum to Deborah Gorham accepting the 4 resignation, a printout of about a half a 5 page of some text, and a copy of an article 6 about Vince Foster. 7 In addition, I have a copy of a 8 United States Government Appointment Book 9 from 1993 that mostly contains information 10 personal to Ms. Gorham, but she did keep it 11 while she was at the government in The White 12 House Counsel's suite. 13 We have redacted from that Social 14 Security numbers of individuals who were 15 seeking clearance to The White House. Other 16 than that, there's been nothing redacted. We 17 are producing them to you now. That's all 18 there is that is responsive to the subpoena. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, well, 20 thank you. 21 MR. MILLS: We have copies for 22 other counsel, if you'd like. 10 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, so we have copies 3 for the other counsel as well. 4 MR. MILLS: Yes, sir. I 5 distributed those. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Do we have an extra 7 copy that we can use to mark as an exhibit to 8 this deposition? 9 MR. MILLS: I'm afraid I've 10 distributed all the copies that we have other 11 than our own. 12 MR. MAZUR: I'll yield. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe we can borrow 14 Mr. Mazur's. Thank you. Can we borrow the 15 appointment book, too? 16 I'll make another copy for you at 17 the break. Thank you. Let's just run 18 through this and put it on the record and 19 mark them. 20 The first document that you are 21 producing is a letter on White House 22 stationery from yourself, Deborah Gorham, 11 1 your letter of resignation of November 8th. 2 We'll mark that as Exhibit 2. 3 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 2 4 was marked for identification.) 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Then we'll mark as 6 Exhibit 3 a letter of November 8, 1993 from 7 Bernard Nussbaum accepting your resignation. 8 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 3 9 was marked for identification.) 10 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll mark as 11 Exhibit 4 a document which starts at the top 12 "Service is the rent we pay for living." 13 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 4 14 was marked for identification.) 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 5, an article 16 from the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, 17 purportedly, of July 23, 1993. 18 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 5 19 was marked for identification.) 20 MR. KLAYMAN: United States 21 Government Appointment Book, 1993, we'll make 22 that Exhibit 6. 12 1 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 6 2 was marked for identification.) 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Ms. Gorham, I take it you didn't 5 find any other documents responsive to our 6 subpoena? 7 A I have no other documents. 8 Q Those are all the documents you 9 left The White House with? 10 A That is correct. 11 Q Did you take from The White House 12 during the time you were employed there any 13 documents? 14 A Other than the ones you have? 15 Q Yes. 16 A No, I did not. 17 Q All of these documents were kept by 18 you since the time you left The White House? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q The document which is labeled 21 Exhibit 4, what is that? It just has some 22 kind of statements on it, "Service is the 13 1 rent we pay for living. Service means you 2 get as well as you give." 3 A These are snippets or excerpts from 4 two speeches that Mr. Foster prepared. 5 Q You typed them for him? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q We'll come back to the documents in 8 a bit. Tell me if you would, Ms. Gorham, 9 what your opinion is of Linda Tripp. 10 A Linda is a lady who probably is a 11 person -- Linda is a lady who in life really 12 has very little good to say about anyone. 13 Q How did you come to that 14 conclusion? 15 A By working with her. 16 Q Can you provide some specific 17 examples? 18 A Linda had a very negative attitude 19 about individuals, and was always certainly 20 vocal and verbalized about how she felt about 21 people. 22 Q What specifically did she say about 14 1 people that you and Linda worked with? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q With as much specificity as 5 possible, tell me anything you remember. 6 MR. MILLS: Objection, compound, 7 form. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to 9 move it along. 10 MR. MILLS: The witness can only 11 answer one question at a time, that's all. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Tell me everything you remember 14 that Linda said about people that you worked 15 with at The White House that was negative. 16 A Linda would comment on people 17 regarding their dress, regarding their 18 competency level, regarding their 19 intelligence level. But I cannot remember 20 the specific incidents or nature of the 21 actions. This was her general demeanor. 22 Q Tell me what if anything Linda 15 1 Tripp said about Vince Foster. 2 A I don't recall her saying anything 3 negative about Vince to me. 4 Q Tell me what if anything Linda said 5 about Bernard Nussbaum. 6 A She never said anything negative to 7 me. 8 Q Tell me what if anything Linda 9 Tripp said about William Kennedy. 10 A She never said anything to me. 11 Q Tell me what if anything Linda 12 Tripp said about Betsy Pond. 13 A Linda would comment on her 14 demeanor, her attendance, her skill level. 15 Q Anything else? 16 A Not that I can think of at the 17 moment. 18 Q What did Linda say about her -- 19 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. Did the 20 reporter hear her response? 21 (The reporter read the record as 22 requested.) 16 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What did Linda say about her 3 demeanor? 4 A Linda would always insinuate that 5 Betsy was a very flighty person, using that 6 exact word. 7 Q What else did she say? 8 A That's all that comes to mind right 9 now. 10 Q What if anything did Linda Tripp 11 say about Betsy Pond's attendance? 12 A That she was lacking in reporting 13 to work everyday. 14 Q Did she say anything else about 15 Betsy Pond's attendance? 16 A Not that I recall at the moment. 17 Q Was Betsy Pond late to work 18 frequently? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Based on your observations. 22 A No, I would say not. 17 1 Q You never saw her late even once? 2 A Oh, I'm sure she was late once, but 3 it was not frequent. 4 Q Can you remember her being late 5 more than once? 6 A Possibly, yes. 7 Q How many times? Approximate. 8 A I couldn't render an answer how 9 many times approximate. 10 Q Frequently? 11 A No. 12 Q Did Linda Tripp ever offer an 13 opinion as to why Betsy Pond was late? 14 A No, she didn't. 15 Q Do you have any facts yourself as 16 to why Betsy Pond was late? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A I'm sure that one time probably her 21 car needed repair or perhaps if she was 22 feeling ill. 18 1 Q What if anything did Linda Tripp 2 say about Betsy Pond's skill level? 3 A I don't believe that Linda thought 4 that she had a very high skill level in 5 administrative matters or matters such as 6 typing. 7 Q What specifically did Linda Tripp 8 say? 9 A I don't recall at the moment. 10 Q Did you observe Betsy Pond's skill 11 level? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Do you have an opinion as to her 14 skill level? 15 A I do. 16 Q What is that? 17 A I thought she was very competent. 18 Q Did Linda Tripp have anything else 19 to say about Betsy Pond? 20 A Not that I can recall at the 21 moment. 22 Q Did Linda Tripp ever express any 19 1 opinion or make any statements about William 2 Kennedy? 3 A She did not to me. 4 Q Stephen Waudby? 5 A She did not to me. 6 Q Did she express any opinion about 7 anybody else in The White House Counsel's 8 office? 9 A She did. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q She did not. 14 A She did. 15 Q Who else? 16 A The people that we worked with on 17 staff. 18 Q Such as? 19 A Tom Castleton. 20 Q What was his position at the time? 21 A He was a staff assistant. 22 Q What did Linda Tripp say about him? 20 1 A She would comment in the same form 2 and fashion. 3 Q What do you mean by same? 4 A Regarding his skill level. 5 Q Tell me what she said. Let's just 6 run through it. Skill level. 7 A She would find particular specific 8 times when his work was inaccurate and then 9 she would comment on it. 10 Q What did she comment on? 11 A That it was inaccurate. 12 Q Anything more? 13 A I'm sure she did. 14 Q Who else did she talk about? 15 A There was another young woman who 16 worked as a staff assistant in our office as 17 well. Her name fails me at the moment. 18 Q Do you remember anybody else? 19 A No. 20 Q Is that person's name Cynthia? 21 A No. 22 Q Did she ever comment on Craig 21 1 Livingstone? 2 A Not to me. 3 Q Steven Neuwirth? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What did she say about Steven 6 Neuwirth? 7 A I don't -- she really did not like 8 him. 9 Q Did she say why? 10 A She probably thought that he was 11 abrasive. 12 Q Was he abrasive? 13 A Not to me. 14 Q Did you ever see him being abrasive 15 to anybody else? 16 A I didn't notice. 17 Q Did she ever comment about Anthony 18 Marceca? 19 A Not to me. 20 Q Did Linda Tripp ever comment about 21 Hillary Clinton? 22 A I'm sure she did. 22 1 Q What did she say? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q Bruce Lindsey? 4 A The fact that she knew Bruce for a 5 long time. 6 Q Did she say anything more about 7 Bruce Lindsey? 8 A I'm sure she did, I don't recall. 9 Q Did she ever comment about Cheryl 10 Mills? 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q Marsha Scott? 13 A I don't recall what she said. 14 Q Jane Sherburne? 15 A Not to me. 16 Q President Clinton? 17 A I'm sure she commented about the 18 President. 19 Q What did she say? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Lloyd Cutler? 22 A Not to me. 23 1 Q Abner Mikva? 2 A Not to me. 3 Q Jack Quinn. 4 A Not to me. 5 Q David Watkins? 6 A I'm sure she commented about him. 7 Q What did she say? 8 A I don't recall. 9 Q Harold Ickes? 10 A Not to me. 11 Q Maggie Williams? 12 A Not to me. 13 Q Catherine Cornelius? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Harry Tomasson? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q Joel Klein? 18 A Not to me. 19 Q How long did you work with Linda 20 Tripp? 21 A In direct contact, from 22 approximately the 1st of June until 24 1 September 1st -- September 4. 2 Q 1st of June of '93 to September 1st 3 of '93. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q Did you work in close proximity to 6 her during that period of time? 7 A I did. 8 Q Where was that proximity? 9 A In White House Counsel's office. 10 Q You initially worked with her 11 outside of the office of Bernard Nussbaum. 12 Correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Where did you sit in relation to 15 Linda Tripp? 16 A As in distance, is that what you 17 are speaking of? 18 Q There were two desks there? 19 A No, there were four. 20 Q Four desks. 21 A Right. 22 Q Who sat at those four desks? 25 1 A Betsy Pond, myself, Linda Tripp, 2 Tom Castleton. 3 Q How long were the four of you 4 sitting together at those four desks? 5 A Over a period of time? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Approximately four months. 8 Q Can you draw us a diagram, we won't 9 hold you to scale or anything like that, 10 where everybody sat outside of Nussbaum's 11 office? 12 A I could. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll make that the 14 next exhibit, 7. 15 (Gorham Deposition Exhibit No. 7 16 was marked for identification.) 17 MR. FITTON: I'll get you a pen. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want, we can 20 make copies. Would anyone else like copies? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, we would. 26 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a little 2 break and make copies. 3 THE WITNESS: We're going off video 4 record at 10:25. 5 (Recess) 6 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 7 record at 10:28. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Ms. Gorham, looking at this diagram 10 that you drew, about how far away in terms of 11 feet were you from the desk of Linda Tripp? 12 A I would say approximately six feet. 13 Q Now, during that period of time did 14 you work on some matters with Linda Tripp in 15 The White House Counsel's office? 16 A No. 17 Q Were your duties and 18 responsibilities totally separate? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Can you explain what your duties 21 and responsibilities were as opposed to 22 Ms. Tripp's? 27 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I worked for the late 3 Vincent Foster as his secretary. Linda 4 worked as an executive assistant to Bernie 5 Nussbaum, along with Betsy Pond. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q But were there things that 8 Mr. Foster was doing that overlapped with 9 some of the things that Mr. Nussbaum was 10 doing where you as assistants to Mr. Foster 11 and Mr. Nussbaum, respectively, would have to 12 interact? 13 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea 15 what Mr. Nussbaum was working on. I only 16 knew what Mr. Foster was working on. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware Mr. Foster 19 interviewed Ms. Tripp for her job. Correct? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No I'm not aware that 28 1 he did interview her. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q During the period that you worked 4 in this proximity with Ms. Tripp, I take it 5 from time to time during the day you would 6 talk to her across the desk. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q What are some of the things that 9 you'd talk about? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: Certainly just the 12 incidental everyday professional life, 13 "There's a telephone call for you," or "I'm 14 going to lunch." 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you talk about the things you 17 both were working on? 18 A No. 19 Q Never? 20 A I did not. 21 Q Did she? 22 A No. 29 1 Q Would you take incoming phone calls 2 for Mr. Foster? 3 A I did. 4 Q Could other people sitting in that 5 room hear those incoming phone calls? 6 A Could they hear the phones ringing? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Yes. 9 Q If you were taking a message from 10 somebody, could other people overhear that? 11 A If they listened. 12 Q Vice versa, I take it. 13 A I could overhear them if I 14 listened. 15 Q Now, during the time that you 16 worked in this close proximity what were 17 Ms. Pond's and Ms. Castleton's duties and 18 responsibilities during this four-month 19 period? 20 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: That's Mr. Castleton. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 30 1 Q Yes. 2 A Ms. Pond worked for Mr. Nussbaum 3 and provided assistant secretarial support. 4 Mr. Castleton worked with our incoming mail. 5 Q At some point in time you 6 transferred from that office over to the 7 OEOB. Correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q This office was in the West Wing 10 that's described in Exhibit 7. 11 A Yes. 12 Q Then you went to the OEOB. 13 A Yes. 14 Q That coincided, that was after the 15 death of Vince Foster? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Why did you change offices? 18 A Virtually I had no one to work with 19 and no work to do. Mr. Kennedy's detail was 20 returning back to their government agency, 21 and so I offered to help him out. 22 Q After you transferred you then went 31 1 to work for Mr. Kennedy. 2 A No. Actually, I went to work for 3 Cheryl Mills' office for the first month. 4 Q What did you do for Cheryl Mills? 5 A Answered telephones, took phone 6 messages. 7 Q Anything else? 8 A Not that I recall. 9 Q Then what happened after the first 10 month? 11 A I went to work over at 12 Mr. Kennedy's office when his detail ended. 13 Q What did you do for him? 14 A Answered phones, very minimal 15 clerical duties. 16 Q When you went to work for 17 Mr. Kennedy, was anybody working with you in 18 working for Mr. Kennedy? 19 A Do you mean were there other people 20 in the office? 21 Q Yes. 22 A Yes. 32 1 Q Who was there? 2 A Mr. Kennedy, a volunteer that he 3 had. 4 Q Do you remember that volunteer's 5 name? 6 A I believe her last name is Raglund. 7 Q Ragley? 8 A Raglund. 9 Q Raglund? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q What's her first name? 12 A Possibly Jean or Jeannine, I don't 13 rail. 14 Q Do you know where Ms. Raglund is 15 today? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Is she still at The White House? 18 A I have no idea. 19 Q What did Ms. Raglund do for 20 Mr. Kennedy? 21 A Answered telephones. 22 Q Who else was working in that 33 1 office? 2 A Beth Nolan, two young gentlemen who 3 were assistants or legal assistants, another 4 detailed attorney from another government 5 agency. 6 Q Who were the two assistants? 7 A I don't recall their names. 8 Q Do you remember their first names? 9 A Perhaps Edgar. 10 Q Who were the detailees from another 11 agency? 12 A I don't know who they were. 13 Q Anyone else working in that office? 14 A Not that I recall. 15 Q Was Betsy Pond working in the 16 office at the time? 17 A That I was? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No. 20 Q When you moved over to the OEOB, 21 did Linda Tripp sometimes come up to visit 22 with you? 34 1 A No. 2 Q Did she ever come up there to visit 3 with anyone? 4 A I have no idea. 5 Q You never saw her up there? 6 A I don't recall seeing her there. 7 Q Based on your experience working 8 with Ms. Tripp, is it your opinion that she's 9 an honest person or a dishonest person? 10 A I'm sorry. I can't formulate an 11 opinion whether she's honest or dishonest. 12 Q Did she ever say anything to you 13 which you know to be untrue? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What was that? 16 A When she would make statements of 17 someone's competency level. 18 Q Who was she talking about that you 19 understood to be untrue? 20 A Betsy Pond, Tom Castleton. 21 Q So you are saying that her opinion 22 of their competency level was something which 35 1 was false. 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Do you believe that Ms. Tripp is 4 entitled to her opinion? 5 A I do. 6 Q Do you believe that everything that 7 you perceive to be true other people should 8 perceive to be true? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I'm sorry. I don't understand your 15 question. 16 Q What I'm saying is is that you 17 perceive those two people to be competent. 18 Correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q But you will concede that other 21 people can form different opinions. Correct? 22 A Correct. 36 1 Q That doesn't mean that what those 2 other people perceive is false. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Correct? 6 A I'm sorry, I still don't 7 understand. 8 Q Well, let's say suppose I tell you 9 that Mr. Fitton is incompetent and you have a 10 different opinion, that he's competent. Are 11 you telling me that my opinion is false? Is 12 that what you are trying to say with regard 13 to Ms. Tripp? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: Only in your 16 perspective. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q It's a question of perception. 19 Correct? 20 A Exactly. 21 Q But it doesn't mean that someone's 22 perspective is false; it's just simply their 37 1 perspective. Correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q So do you wish to amend your 4 response with regard to Ms. Tripp? 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You don't. 10 A I do not. 11 Q Tell me what it is Ms. Tripp said 12 about Ms. Pond and Mr. Castleton which 13 constitutes something which is false. 14 A She would comment on their 15 competency level and their skill. 16 Q Tell me what it was about their 17 competency level that in your view is false? 18 A They couldn't type, they couldn't 19 answer the phones correctly. 20 Q What specifically about their 21 typing do you consider to be false? 22 A That they could even type. 38 1 Q So Ms. Tripp told you that they 2 could not type at all. 3 A That's correct. 4 Q That they would not even know how 5 to put their hands on a keyboard of a 6 typewriter? 7 A I don't know what her basis was, 8 but they could certainly type. 9 Q Ms. Tripp, you know, was an 10 experienced secretary. Correct? 11 A I don't know that. 12 Q You knew that Ms. Tripp could type? 13 A She could type. 14 Q When she said they couldn't type, 15 did it dawn on you that perhaps she was 16 talking about the speed of their typing? 17 A Absolutely. 18 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 19 That's argumentative. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 21 objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 39 1 Q You can respond. So you took it to 2 mean they couldn't type in terms of their 3 speed. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q How quickly could Ms. Pond type? 6 A I have no idea. 7 Q How were you therefore able to form 8 an opinion that Ms. Tripp was telling a 9 falsehood? 10 A It's just simply my opinion. 11 Q Ms. Tripp's entitled to hers. 12 Correct? 13 A Absolutely. 14 Q That doesn't mean she's telling you 15 a falsehood. Correct? 16 A It's her opinion. 17 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 18 answered. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond? 21 A It's her opinion. 22 Q It doesn't mean she's saying 40 1 something which is false, does it? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A Would you reask the question? 7 Q Because Ms. Tripp has an opinion 8 about the speed of Ms. Pond's typing and you 9 have a different opinion, that doesn't mean 10 that either of you are not telling the truth. 11 Correct? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q So therefore you have no basis to 14 believe that Ms. Tripp lied to you about 15 Ms. Pond's typing? 16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A I'm sorry. I'm confused. 21 Q If you concede that two people are 22 entitled to an opinion, in this case the 41 1 speed of Ms. Pond's typing, then you have no 2 basis to say that Ms. Tripp's opinion is a 3 falsehood. Correct? 4 A I'm sorry. I'm very confused as to 5 where you're leading this to. 6 Q You just have to answer the 7 questions. You don't have to worry about 8 where I'm leading you. Please answer the 9 question. 10 A I'm sorry, I can't. I'm confused. 11 Q Tell me something else that 12 Ms. Tripp said that was false about Ms. Pond 13 or Mr. Castleton? 14 A I think I've already told you. 15 Q What was that? 16 A Regarding their competency level 17 and skills. 18 Q Tell me specifically what Ms. Tripp 19 said about the competency levels and skills 20 of Ms. Pond and Mr. Castleton? 21 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 22 answered. 42 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Other than typing; we just went 3 over typing. 4 A I cannot remember the specifics at 5 this time. 6 Q You just know it was false. 7 A In my opinion, it was false. 8 Q Tell me why it was false. 9 A It's not how I viewed them. They 10 were typists and they could answer a phone. 11 Q Are you saying that Ms. Tripp is 12 not entitled to her opinion as to their 13 competency? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection, 15 argumentative. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 20 objection, and asked and answered. 21 MR. MILLS: Repetitive. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 43 1 Q You can respond. 2 MR. MILLS: This is antagonistic, 3 Mr. Klayman. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not. It's very 5 straightforward and my tone is quite measured 6 here. 7 MR. MILLS: It's repetitive, and 8 it's asked and answered. That's the basis 9 for my objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Well, it's not asked and answered. 12 I'll ask that you respond. 13 A Could you repeat the question, 14 please? 15 Q Is Ms. Tripp entitled to her 16 opinion about the competency of Ms. Pond and 17 Mr. Castleton? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, she is. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 44 1 Q Are you entitled to your opinion? 2 A Yes. 3 Q You will concede that opinions may 4 differ. Correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Simply because opinions may differ 7 doesn't mean that either you or Ms. Tripp are 8 saying anything that's false. Correct? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 10 argumentative. 11 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So you have no basis to claim that 15 Ms. Tripp's opinion of the competency of 16 Mr. Castleton and Ms. Pond is false. 17 Correct? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: Only in my 20 perspective. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You don't like Linda Tripp very 45 1 much, do you? 2 A I don't dislike her. 3 Q Do you have an opinion about 4 Ms. Tripp's involvement in the recent 5 Lewinsky scandal? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 A What is it that you are saying? 10 Q Have you ever expressed an opinion 11 as to Linda Tripp's involvement in the recent 12 Lewinsky scandal? 13 A I have. 14 Q What was that opinion? 15 A I thought it was unnecessary that 16 she tape Ms. Lewinsky. 17 Q What do you mean by unnecessary? 18 A I thought that it was illegal. 19 Q How did you arrive at that opinion? 20 A Through mental thought. 21 Q Well, what was illegal about it? 22 A I'm sorry, I retract that. I 46 1 didn't think it was illegal. I thought it 2 was unethical. 3 Q What was the basis of your opinion 4 that it was unethical? 5 A She didn't advise the young woman 6 that she was being taped. 7 Q If Ms. Lewinsky was asking 8 Ms. Tripp to commit a crime, in your opinion 9 would she be permitted as a matter of ethics 10 to tape Ms. Lewinsky? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection, form. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form and 13 relevancy. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm 15 confused. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q It's a very simple question. If 18 Ms. Lewinsky was talking to Ms. Tripp and 19 asking Ms. Tripp to commit a crime such as 20 obstructing justice, in your opinion would it 21 be ethical for Ms. Tripp to tape that 22 conversation? 47 1 MR. MILLS: I'm going to object to 2 that question and the characterization that 3 it's a simple question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Also, object to the 7 form as hypothetical. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A I'm sorry. How is this pertinent? 11 Q Please answer my question. 12 A Would you explain it again? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Please read the 14 question back. 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, I'm 18 sorry, I'd have to ponder that. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Why would you have to ponder that? 21 A I would have to think about it. 22 Q Why? 48 1 MR. MILLS: Objection to why she 2 would have to think about it. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Please respond. 5 A I would like to take time to think 6 about that. 7 Q Tell me why you can't give me an 8 answer now. 9 MR. MILLS: Objection. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 11 argumentative. 12 MR. MILLS: This is badgering the 13 witness and argumentative. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not badgering. 15 MR. MILLS: It is badgering. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Please respond. 18 A Like most ethical questions, I'd 19 like to take the time to think about it. 20 Q The reason you want to think about 21 it is because under your concept of ethics 22 you don't think it's right to rat on anybody. 49 1 Correct? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I don't feel that 5 way. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You do believe, however, that it's 8 wrong to broach the confidence of anybody 9 that you work with. Correct? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection, 12 hypothetical, object to the form. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 A I do. 16 Q You believe that it's unethical to 17 broach the confidence under any circumstance. 18 A I don't know that that would apply 19 in all instances. 20 Q What instances would it not apply 21 to? 22 MR. MILLS: Objection, 50 1 hypothetical. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What instances would it not apply 5 to? 6 A I suppose in a matter of a serious 7 crime such as murder. 8 Q Is there a crime of a lesser degree 9 than murder that it would apply to? 10 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 11 objections. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 A I would have to sit and ponder 16 that. 17 Q Suppose it was a crime relating to 18 violating the privacy rights of somebody? 19 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Please respond. 51 1 A I'm sorry, again, the question 2 would be again regarding privacy matters? 3 Q Yeah. Suppose, for instance, that 4 the crime involved was violating the privacy 5 rights of American citizens. Would it be 6 legitimate to broach the confidence of 7 somebody you worked with under those 8 circumstances? 9 MR. MILLS: I object. I don't even 10 understand the question. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Object, hypothetical. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Please respond. 14 A I'm sorry. I really don't 15 understand the question. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, we've gone 17 through this in a lot of different 18 depositions and I'm asking that you not make 19 that kind of an objection. 20 MR. MILLS: I'm sorry. What kind 21 of objection? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the 52 1 objection -- she mirrored your response 2 there. Obviously that was a way to give her 3 the answer. 4 MR. MILLS: Not correct. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask you not to do 6 that again. Certify it. 7 MR. MILLS: That's not correct. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.* 9 MR. MILLS: You can certify it. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: This happens 11 routinely throughout these depositions; when 12 there's a question of some note, the attorney 13 sometimes gives the answer to the deponent. 14 I ask that you not do that in this instance. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to the 16 characterization. I don't believe that 17 occurs. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll let the record 19 speak for itself. 20 MR. MILLS: Please. Please 21 continue. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Would you read back 53 1 the question? 2 (The reporter read the record as 3 requested.) 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Please respond. 6 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 7 of the that question. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 9 objection. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I would 11 have to take more time to ponder that. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Suppose somebody you worked with 14 was violating the rights of American citizens 15 to privacy. Would you turn that person in to 16 authorities, to government authorities? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Please respond. 21 MR. MILLS: To form and relevance. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 54 1 Q Please respond. 2 A I don't know. I would have to 3 think about that. 4 Q Have you ever thought about that? 5 A No. I've never had the instance to 6 occur. 7 Q Suppose somebody you worked with in 8 a secretarial capacity or an assistant's 9 capacity had access to the personnel file of 10 someone else you worked with and he shouldn't 11 have had access to that personnel file. 12 Would you turn that person in to Federal 13 authorities? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 MR. MILLS: Objection to form and 16 relevance. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A Are you asking if they reviewed the 20 file, is that all that you are asking? Is 21 that all that you are insinuating? 22 Q Let's say you were a secretary 55 1 working with Mr. Mills at his law firm. 2 Suppose Mr. Mills had a file that he 3 shouldn't have had, that that wasn't part of 4 his duty and responsibility to have in terms 5 of reviewing it, and it contained highly 6 private information. 7 Would you turn Mr. Mills in to 8 government authorities? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 10 relevancy, hypothetical. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 MR. MILLS: All the same 15 objections. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 17 would at least talk with him first about it. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Let's say that Mr. Mills had that 20 file for whatever reason and he shouldn't 21 have had that file and that file contained 22 highly personal and confidential information 56 1 about somebody else. Suppose that 2 information was used against that other 3 person. Would you turn Mr. Mills in? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection to form, 5 relevance. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 7 objections, hypothetical. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Please respond. 10 A I would talk with Mr. Mills first 11 and then with the necessary supervisor. 12 Q Would you turn them in to 13 government authorities? 14 A I don't know. I'd have to think 15 about that. 16 Q Can you cite any other examples to 17 me where Linda Tripp was dishonest? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 THE WITNESS: Dishonest in what 21 way? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 57 1 Q In any way. 2 A Specifically, no, I cannot. 3 Q Do you know of anyone who has 4 information about the honesty or dishonesty 5 of Linda Tripp? 6 A No. 7 Q When you told us earlier this 8 morning that you heard Linda Tripp talking 9 negatively about certain employees, did you 10 hear her directly or did that come through 11 somebody else? 12 A I heard it directly. 13 Q Had you ever heard things from 14 other people about what Linda Tripp was 15 saying? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Who were those other people? 18 A Betsy Pond, of course, a secretary 19 across the hallway. 20 Q Who is the name of the secretary 21 across the hallway? 22 A Her last name was Champagne. 58 1 Q Is she still there? 2 A I have no idea. 3 Q What did Betsy Pond say that Linda 4 Tripp has said? 5 A That she mischaracterized this 6 young woman as incompetent. 7 Q What young woman? 8 A Ms. Champagne. 9 Q Did she say how? 10 A That she was not a secretary. 11 Q You took that to mean she didn't 12 have the skills of a secretary? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Did Ms. Pond say anything else? 15 A I don't recall what else she said. 16 Q Did you ever work with 17 Ms. Champagne? 18 A I did. 19 Q In what capacity? 20 A She was a secretary, as was I. 21 Q What did you do specifically with 22 her? 59 1 A Helped her answer phones. 2 Q So the only thing you did with her 3 was to answer phones. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q You found her to be competent 6 answering phones? 7 A Certainly. 8 Q But that's not the only skill of a 9 secretary. Correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q You have no basis to form an 12 opinion one way or the other with regard to 13 other skills which Ms. Champagne may or may 14 not have had. 15 A No. I did not supervise her. 16 Q Did Betsy Pond say anything else 17 about Ms. Tripp? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Did Ms. Champagne ever say anything 20 about Ms. Tripp? 21 A Not to me. 22 Q Was there anyone else who ever said 60 1 anything about Ms. Tripp? 2 A I'm sure there was. 3 Q Can you remember who they were? 4 A I do not. 5 Q Now, you left The White House on 6 what date? 7 A The third week in November 1993. 8 Q Turning your attention to 9 Exhibit 2, this is your resignation letter. 10 Do you have a copy of that? 11 MR. FITTON: Here you go, 12 Ms. Gorham. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you have a copy of that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q This letter which you prepared and 18 sent to Bernard Nussbaum, did you discuss 19 your resignation with him before leaving? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Did you ever have any discussions 22 at any time with Bernard Nussbaum about the 61 1 reasons that you left? 2 A I'm sure I did. 3 Q When did you have those 4 discussions? 5 A Perhaps when I handed it to him. 6 Q What did you say? 7 A I told him that I'm resigning and 8 accepting a position at a law firm. 9 Q What else did you say to him? 10 A I don't recall. 11 Q What did he say to you? 12 A I don't recall. 13 Q This was a pretty strong moment in 14 your life, wasn't it, when you had to resign? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: Are you inferring 18 that I was forced to resign when you say I 19 had to resign? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I don't know. Were you forced to 22 resign? 62 1 A No. 2 Q I wasn't inferring anything. But 3 you resigned because you couldn't bear to 4 work there any more. Correct? 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: That's incorrect. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What's incorrect about it? 10 A That I could not, quote, "bear to 11 work there." 12 Q What's correct? Tell me the reason 13 why you resigned. 14 A I had no duties at The White House. 15 It was not what I wanted to do any longer. 16 The gentleman that I came to work for had 17 committed suicide. It was time for me to 18 return to what I enjoyed best, and that was 19 working for a law firm. 20 Q Well, the letter says, "It is with 21 great measure of sadness that I offer my 22 resignation this day. I plan to leave The 63 1 White House on Wednesday, November 17 and 2 would like to take a few days off before I 3 return to the private sector at Wilmer, 4 Cutler & Pickering." Had someone offered you 5 a job at Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Who had offered you a job? 8 A The personnel department. 9 Q Lloyd Cutler had helped arrange for 10 you to get that job? 11 A I have no idea. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 13 form. 14 MR. MILLS: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q How did you get the job? 18 A I went through the typical process, 19 send a resume, take a typing test, have an 20 interview. 21 Q Did you know anybody at Wilmer, 22 Cutler & Pickering before you applied? 64 1 A I believe Scarlett Bates, a friend 2 of mine, worked there. 3 Q Did you know anybody else? 4 A No. 5 Q Had you ever met Lloyd Cutler? 6 A Prior to this? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No. 9 Q You then say, "I enjoyed working 10 for you and with your staff these past eight 11 months. I accepted this position in 12 February, in part, out of regard for Vince's 13 sister, Sheila, and my disposition to assist 14 this special neophyte to Washington. 15 But to be able to come to closure 16 with the death of Vince, I must retreat from 17 the constant visual reminder of his lack of 18 presence and return to a career position in a 19 local law firm. I hope we keep in touch 20 through our mutual friends, if not in 21 person." 22 Now, this letter expresses the 65 1 reason you left. Correct? Are you telling 2 me that that wasn't really the reason you 3 left? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: These are simply 7 expressions. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What do you mean by they're simply 10 expressions? 11 A They're expressions that are used 12 in a letter. 13 Q What does that mean? 14 A Sir, what was your original 15 question? 16 Q Well, were you just trying to tell 17 Nussbaum that so you had a graceful way to 18 leave? 19 A Absolutely. 20 Q But you didn't really mean that. 21 A I meant everything I wrote here. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 66 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Well, that's the reason you left, 3 correct? 4 MR. MILLS: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: What? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You couldn't bear to work in The 8 White House anymore. 9 MR. MILLS: Objection. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form; 11 mischaracterizes. 12 THE WITNESS: I couldn't bear to 13 work in The White House any longer because 14 the person I came to work for was no longer 15 there and I had very little work that I used 16 my skills at. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q It created an emotional reaction 19 that because Vince Foster had died, you had 20 very bad memories of that whole situation and 21 that was one of the reasons why you wanted to 22 move on. Correct? 67 1 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 2 and it's harassing the witness. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A No. I didn't have bad memories. 7 Q You had unpleasant memories. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 10 THE WITNESS: It was unpleasant to 11 think that someone would take their life. 12 Since he was no longer my supervisor, there 13 was no reason for me to continue working 14 there. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What basis do you have to believe 17 that he took his life? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 20 THE WITNESS: I believe that he 21 committed suicide. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 68 1 Q Well, on November 8, 1993 you 2 didn't know one way or the other how he died, 3 did you? 4 A I don't recall. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you believe he committed 8 suicide on November 8, 1993? 9 MR. MILLS: Objection, same 10 objections. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q What caused you to believe that? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I recognized the 17 symptoms of depression in working with him. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q What symptoms were they? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 21 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 22 THE WITNESS: He seemed sad a great 69 1 deal of the time. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Do you know why? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you discuss that with him? 9 A No. 10 Q Was he sad because of the things he 11 was working on at the time? 12 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 13 answered. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can respond. That was not 16 asked and answered. 17 MR. MILLS: It was asked and 18 answered. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, if you 20 want to object, I would ask that you object 21 accurately. But that's not accurate. 22 MR. MILLS: It is accurate, 70 1 Mr. Klayman. You asked the general question 2 and she said she didn't know; and then you 3 asked the specific question which she 4 couldn't have known because she answered the 5 general question. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Please answer the question. 8 A Would you repeat the last question, 9 please. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Read it back. 11 (The reporter read the record as 12 requested.) 13 THE WITNESS: I have no idea what 14 he was sad about. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q He told you he was sad. Right? 17 A He did not tell me that. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q How did you come to that 71 1 conclusion? 2 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 3 THE WITNESS: He did not smile as 4 much as he used to. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you mention to anyone that you 7 were noticing that Mr. Foster was sad and 8 didn't smile as much as he used to? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 10 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 11 Same objections. 12 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you come to believe that the 15 reason he looked sad was because he wasn't 16 enjoying his work? 17 MR. MILLS: Objection. This is 18 badgering the witness. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the 20 objection. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand 22 how that's badgering. Let's ask the witness 72 1 just to step out for a second. I want to 2 understand these things. 3 MR. MILLS: If you want to have the 4 witness to step out, that's fine -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm seeing very 6 partisan representation here which is getting 7 to the point of absurd. 8 MR. MILLS: I don't understand 9 that. What do you mean partisan 10 representation? You are asking a woman about 11 a person who she worked for who committed 12 suicide. 13 She's obviously going to be 14 emotional about that. It's absolutely 15 irrelevant to any issue that you've raised in 16 this lawsuit and you continually and 17 repeatedly ask these questions. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We're going to have a 19 difficult time here today, Mr. Mills, if this 20 is the way you're going to proceed. The 21 court has asked that we proceed in a very 22 civil way and a direct way. 73 1 The court has instructed counsel 2 not to make speaking objections, not to 3 insert testimony to witnesses. These are 4 simple questions. You very well know the 5 relevancy of these questions. 6 I would ask that we proceed in the 7 spirit of cooperation, not hostility and not 8 accusing me of things that I'm not doing. 9 MR. MILLS: I'm not accusing you of 10 anything you're not doing and I'm not making 11 speaking objections. You engaged me in this 12 discussion. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: This is an important 14 witness. 15 MR. MILLS: I only ask that you let 16 me finish before you speak. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. 18 MR. MILLS: There is nothing 19 improper about my making objections. It's 20 the witness' entitlement to have counsel here 21 and it's my entitlement to make objections. 22 I've made those objections without making 74 1 speaking objections. 2 You have engaged me in a 3 conversation, which is your right, and I'll 4 be happy to answer you. If you don't want to 5 do that, don't ask me any questions. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking you 7 any questions. I'm asking you not to engage 8 in speaking objections. I'm asking you not 9 to insert yourself and make objections which 10 clearly relate to questions that are relevant 11 and you know they're relevant. 12 MR. MILLS: I don't. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking you to 14 proceed in a way that allows justice to be 15 done here. If we can't proceed in that way, 16 then I will respectfully ask for court 17 intervention at the earliest opportunity, 18 because this is an important witness. 19 MR. MILLS: I respect all the 20 things you've said. If you think you need 21 court intervention, that's your right. I 22 assume you know that I have a right to make 75 1 my objections. I don't think I've made any 2 improper objections. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: When you make 4 relevancy objections and insert yourself and 5 accuse me of things that I'm not doing, and 6 I'm trying to be very, very calm. 7 MR. MILLS: That's not right. I 8 didn't accuse you. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Of badgering the 10 witness and harassing the witness on a 11 clearly relevant question. That creates 12 unnecessary tension, it creates unnecessary 13 incivility, and I ask that we not proceed in 14 that way. 15 MR. MILLS: I believe that you have 16 been harassing the witness. Harassment is 17 one of the specific grounds for objection. 18 I'm entitled to object based on harassment, 19 and that's what I did. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You may not like the 21 questions that I ask that, but that doesn't 22 mean I'm harassing the witness. 76 1 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, I'm not 2 objecting to the questions I don't like. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a 4 two-minute break. Maybe we can all think 5 about exactly where we're going here. 6 MR. MILLS: I have no need to take 7 a two-minute break. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I am taking a 9 two-minute break. 10 MR. MILLS: We'll be waiting right 11 here for you in two minutes. 12 THE WITNESS: We're going off video 13 record at 11:03. 14 (Recess) 15 THE WITNESS: We're back on video 16 record at 11:07. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Read back the last 18 question. 19 (The reporter read the record as 20 requested.) 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 22 relevancy. 77 1 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 2 THE WITNESS: He did not convey to 3 me whether he enjoyed his work or not. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Were there matters that he was 6 working on that you knew of that in your 7 opinion could have caused him to look sad? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I do not know 10 what matters that he worked on that could 11 have caused him to be sad. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q During the time that you worked for 14 Vince Foster you were aware that Hillary 15 Clinton visited his office from time to time. 16 Correct? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: From time to time? 19 What does that mean? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You don't know what "time to time" 22 means? 78 1 A Would you explain it to me, please? 2 Q "From time to time" means? 3 Sometimes. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q "Time to time" equals "sometimes." 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I saw Mrs. Clinton 9 visit our offices. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You saw her visit more than once? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: Possibly twice. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q More than twice? 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q You took calls from Mrs. Clinton 18 for Mr. Foster. Correct? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 21 THE WITNESS: I might have. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 79 1 Q You don't remember anything about 2 taking calls? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: No, I do remember 7 about taking calls but I do not recall how 8 many times Mrs. Clinton called. But they 9 were not frequent. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q So therefore you wish to amend your 12 answer that you may have; you now concede 13 that you actually took calls from 14 Mrs. Clinton? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, harassing. 19 MR. MILLS: Agree, it's harassing. 20 THE WITNESS: I might have taken 21 one or two calls. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 80 1 Q In the entire time you worked for 2 Mr. Foster? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: To the best of my 5 memory, they were very infrequent. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You know that Mrs. Clinton came in 8 on at least two occasions to see Mr. Foster. 9 Why did Mrs. Clinton come to see Mr. Foster? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who 14 she came in to see. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you know why Mrs. Clinton was 17 coming to see Mr. Foster? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 20 THE WITNESS: If she saw 21 Mr. Foster, I would not know. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 81 1 Q Why not? 2 A I didn't ask. 3 Q If she saw Mr. Foster you wouldn't 4 know, you said? 5 A That's correct. What she came to 6 see him about, if she did. 7 Q But you knew she was seeing him? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall who 10 she visited. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But you knew she was down there in 13 the office. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I certainly saw her. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You saw her go into Mr. Foster's 18 office? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I do not remember who 21 she came in to visit with. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 82 1 Q Did you see Mrs. Clinton go into 2 Mr. Foster's office or not? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. MILLS: Objection. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Same. 6 THE WITNESS: I do not remember. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you ever tell Linda Tripp why 9 Mrs. Clinton was visiting Mr. Foster? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you ever tell anyone why 16 Mrs. Clinton was visiting Mr. Foster? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever tell anyone whether 83 1 Mr. Foster was working on matters concerning 2 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 3 A I believe once I told Linda Tripp 4 that I was helping Mr. Foster with their tax 5 return. 6 Q Anything else? 7 A No. 8 Q When did you tell Linda Tripp that? 9 A Perhaps sometime in very early 10 April. 11 Q April of '93. 12 A I'm sorry. I do not know that I 13 told Linda Tripp that. Perhaps I said that 14 to Betsy. 15 Q What were you helping Mr. Foster 16 with with regard to Mrs. Clinton's tax 17 returns? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Hold on. I've got to 21 confer with the counsel's witness before we 22 go any further with this. 84 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You're conferring 2 with who? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Counsel's witness. I 4 mean the witness' counsel. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Would you read the 8 question back, please. 9 (The reporter read the record as 10 requested.) 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Let me speak to 12 Mr. Mills again. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Do you 14 mind having the question repeated? 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to relevancy. 18 THE WITNESS: Photocopying them. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What was Mr. Foster doing with 21 regard to Mrs. Clinton's taxes? 22 MR. MILLS: Objection. 85 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know what he 4 was doing with them. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you ever discuss with 7 Mr. Foster whether it was legal for him as a 8 government lawyer to be working on the 9 Clintons' taxes? 10 MR. MILLS: Objection. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 12 relevancy. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you yourself ever think about 16 that issue? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 18 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You were aware that Mr. Foster's 22 salary was being paid for by the U.S. 86 1 taxpayers. Correct? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I assumed he received 5 a check from the Federal Government, as I 6 did. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Were you aware of the Clintons 9 paying Mr. Foster any money for services. 10 A No. 11 Q So you didn't think it was improper 12 for Mr. Foster to be spending his time paid 13 for by taxpayers working on the Clintons' 14 taxes? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 17 THE WITNESS: I did not think about 18 it. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you thought about it since? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you have an opinion today as to 87 1 whether that's proper or not? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I'm telling you based upon the 6 facts that you just told me that Mr. Foster 7 was working on the Clintons' taxes, you 8 concede that Mr. Foster was paid, his salary 9 was paid for by U.S. taxpayers, do you have 10 an opinion today as to whether that's proper? 11 MR. MILLS: Objection to that 12 question. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy, 14 argumentative. 15 THE WITNESS: No, I do not. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q That's illegal, isn't it? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 20 answered, harassment. 21 THE WITNESS: I do not know. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 88 1 Q You don't care. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Correct? 7 A I would have to think about that. 8 Q Was there anything else that 9 Mr. Foster was working on that you mentioned 10 to anybody? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 12 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Or knew about. Excuse me? 15 A Not that I recall. 16 Q I think you answered that. Did you 17 ever see Mrs. Clinton in Mr. Foster's office? 18 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 THE WITNESS: Not that I remember. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever see the two of them 89 1 talking in person? 2 A Not that I remember. 3 Q Are you aware of them having had 4 any meetings? 5 A I cannot recall a meeting they had 6 together. 7 Q At the time you worked in The White 8 House you were a notary public. Correct? 9 A That's incorrect. 10 Q Have you ever been a notary public? 11 A I have. 12 Q When were you a notary public? 13 A Are you asking when my commission 14 started? 15 Q Yes. 16 A In October. 17 Q October of what? 18 A Of 1993. 19 Q Are you a notary public under the 20 laws of the District of Columbia? 21 A I am. 22 Q Are you a notary public under the 90 1 laws of any other state or jurisdiction? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you ever notarize anything for 4 Mrs. Clinton? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever notarize anything for 7 anyone in The White House? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Same. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall 11 that I did. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Why did you become a notary public? 14 MR. MILLS: Objection. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Was Mr. Foster a notary public? 19 A I have no idea. 20 Q Do you know whether or not 21 Mr. Foster notarized anything for 22 Mrs. Clinton? 91 1 A I have no idea. 2 Q Do you know whether anybody else 3 did? 4 A Did what? 5 Q Notarize anything for Mrs. Clinton. 6 A I would have no idea. 7 Q When you say "I don't remember" or 8 "I don't recall," what does that mean? 9 A In what instance? 10 Q Does it mean that you have 11 absolutely no memory or you don't have 12 perfect memory? 13 A In what instance? 14 Q In any instance. 15 A I'm sorry. You would have to be 16 specific. 17 Q Well, let's use the word "I don't 18 recall." Those are your phrases. You've 19 used that a number of times today. When you 20 say "I don't recall," does that mean you 21 recall nothing? 22 A That's correct, I do not recall 92 1 anything about that particular situation that 2 you are asking about. 3 Q So you wouldn't have any 4 recollection at all. 5 A That's correct. 6 Q When you say the word "I don't 7 remember," do you mean the same thing as "I 8 don't recall"? 9 A It depends upon the question. 10 Q So if you say "I don't remember," 11 you may have some memory but not sufficient 12 enough for you to testify to? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: I think it would 15 depend upon the question that you ask me. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Can you explain what you mean by 18 that? 19 A Perhaps I should use "I don't 20 recall" in instances that I have no memory of 21 and "I don't remember," it would be for a 22 specific incident that I do not remember that 93 1 event taking place, different than "I don't 2 recall." 3 Q What I'm trying to gauge is when 4 you say "I don't remember," you have some 5 memory but it's not a great memory. Is that 6 what you mean? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 MR. MILLS: Same objection. 9 THE WITNESS: With regard to? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q A particular matter where you've 12 testified "I don't remember." 13 A Can you pick a specific question? 14 Q I can't because I wasn't aware that 15 you were making the distinction. What I'm 16 trying to gauge when you say "I don't 17 remember" does that just mean you don't 18 have 80 percent memory or you don't have 90 19 percent? Is there some kind of grade here of 20 levels of memory upon which you would testify 21 to if you exceeded that threshold below which 22 you would not testify if you didn't? 94 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q That's what I'm trying to 5 understand. 6 A I understand that you are. 7 Q So tell me what your rule of thumb 8 is on that "I don't remember." 9 A I would have to review the 10 questions, but perhaps what I mean is that in 11 both situations "I don't recall" and "I don't 12 remember" mean the same thing. 13 Q So it means you have zero memory? 14 A I'll try to be more specific in the 15 future. 16 Q No. But that's what you meant when 17 you say "I don't remember," "I don't recall," 18 "I have zero memory"? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 95 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Nothing, not even a shred? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection. That's 4 harassment. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Correct? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Have you ever testified before 9 under oath? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Where have you testified under oath 12 before? 13 A At the Senate committee and 14 Independent Counsel's office. 15 Q The Senate committee that 16 investigated the death of Vince Foster? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Did they investigate anything else? 19 A I'd have to review the front cover 20 of my transcripts. Whitewater, I believe. 21 Q That was Senator D'Amato's 22 committee? 96 1 A Yes. 2 Q Who asked you the questions at 3 those depositions, do you remember? At that 4 testimony, rather. 5 A I believe it was their Judiciary 6 counsel. 7 Q Did you testify before a Grand Jury 8 before the Independent Counsel? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When did you testify there? 11 A I believe it was approximately 12 August of '95. 13 Q What were the subject matter of 14 your testimony? What did they ask you about? 15 Just generically. 16 A The days preceding Mr. Foster's 17 death and the days after his death. 18 Q Is that it? 19 A I believe they might have asked me 20 if I had knowledge of files in his office. 21 But at this time I can't remember what else 22 they asked. 97 1 Q Did they specifically ever ask you 2 questions about a controversy that has become 3 known as Filegate? 4 A I don't remember that they asked me 5 that, no. 6 Q Has anyone ever asked you questions 7 before today about that controversy? 8 MR. MILLS: Objection to the extent 9 it asks for privileged communications. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 11 of the question. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Other than your counsel. 14 A Regarding -- 15 Q A controversy which has become 16 known as Filegate. You know what I'm talking 17 about, right? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MR. MILLS: Objection to the form 20 of the question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 98 1 A No. 2 Q You are aware of a controversy 3 about 900 or so FBI files that went from the 4 FBI to The White House that has become known 5 as Filegate? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Has anyone ever asked you questions 10 about that before today other than your 11 counsel? 12 A About the matter of Filegate. 13 Q Yes. 14 A No. 15 Q From the date that you left The 16 White House up to today, have you talked with 17 any of the people that you worked with? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A That I worked with? 99 1 Q At The White House. 2 A Since the day I left The White 3 House. 4 Q Yes, up to today. 5 A Yes, I have talked with someone, 6 yes. 7 Q Who have you talked to? 8 A I spoke with Pam Barnett once. 9 Q Who is Pam Barnett? 10 A She was secretary to the First 11 Lady. 12 Q Is she still at The White House? 13 A I have no idea. 14 Q When did you talk to her? 15 A Approximately 1995. 16 Q Did you talk to her more than once? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you correspond with her in 19 writing? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you make notes of your 22 conversation? 100 1 A No. 2 Q Did you record it? 3 A No. 4 Q Who called who, you called 5 Ms. Barnett or did she call you? 6 A I called Ms. Barnett. 7 Q Where were you when you made the 8 call? 9 A At my office. 10 Q Where was that? 11 A At 1200 New Hampshire Avenue. 12 Q Is that a law firm? 13 A It is. 14 Q What law firm is that? 15 A Dow, Lohnes & Albertson. 16 Q Who were you working for at Dow, 17 Lohnes & Albertson at the time? 18 A Kevin Reed. 19 Q Do you still work for him? 20 A I do. 21 Q Mr. Reed's a partner? 22 A He is. 101 1 Q Did Mr. Reed know that you were 2 calling Pam Barnett at The White House? 3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance. 4 THE WITNESS: I do not know if he 5 knew. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Why did you call Pam Barnett? 8 A I had asked Pam if the First Lady 9 was going to be in Athens at the same time my 10 daughter was. 11 Q The same time as your daughter? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Why did you ask her that? 14 A Because my daughter was visiting 15 Athens and so was the First Lady, and I 16 thought perhaps if the First Lady was giving 17 any type of a speech that my daughter could 18 be in attendance. 19 Q How did you know Pam Barnett? 20 A I worked next-door to her. 21 Q You would frequently interact with 22 her when you worked at The White House? 102 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You had contact with her when you 5 worked at The White House? 6 A I would say good morning to her, 7 good afternoon, how are you. 8 Q You would actually sometimes 9 deliver things to her to give to 10 Mrs. Clinton. Right? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if I 15 did or did not. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You may have. 18 A I may have, yes. 19 Q Ms. Barnett would sometimes deliver 20 things to you to give to Mr. Foster. 21 Correct? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 103 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall her 3 ever giving anything to me to deliver to him. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q During the time you worked at The 6 White House did you ever go out socially with 7 Ms. Barnett? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you ever go to lunch with her? 10 A No. 11 Q Have a drink with her after work? 12 A No. 13 Q Did you ever discuss with 14 Ms. Barnett what she did for the First Lady 15 when you worked at The White House? 16 A No. 17 Q You had met the First Lady before 18 this call with Pam Barnett in 1995. Correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q When did you meet her? 21 A In 1993. 22 Q What were the circumstances of 104 1 that? 2 A She walked into our offices and 3 remarked about the stain glass. 4 Q What offices were they? 5 A In the office I was located. 6 Q What, there was stain glass in 7 there? 8 A There was a piece of stain glass in 9 the window, yes. 10 Q Did you meet her on another 11 occasion? Let me back up to that. Was 12 anyone else there when she remarked about the 13 stain glass? 14 A I couldn't tell you today who was 15 standing there or sitting there at the time. 16 Q Vince Foster was there. Right? 17 A I don't remember who was there. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you meet her again? 21 A As in introduce or speak to her 22 personally? 105 1 Q Any contact with her at any time. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I had a visual 4 contact of her when she walked by our 5 offices. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q But you never saw her beyond that? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q The only time you ever saw her 11 again was when she walked by your offices? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. MILLS: Same objections. 14 THE WITNESS: That I can remember, 15 yes. That was the only visual contact after 16 that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you ever have any other kind of 19 contact with her after that? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No. 106 1 Q Did Ms. Barnett get you a ticket so 2 your daughter could go to an event with 3 Hillary Clinton in Greece? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Or did she arrange to have your 8 daughter present when Hillary Clinton 9 conducted some events in Greece? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MR. MILLS: Objection to form. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Barnett 16 anything else other than your daughter? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you have any contact with 19 anyone else at The White House since the time 20 you've left? 21 A Anyone from The White House? 22 Q Mmm-hmm. 107 1 A I called Bernard, Mr. Nussbaum's 2 office. 3 Q Where was Mr. Nussbaum at the time? 4 A At his law firm in New York. 5 Q When did you call him? 6 A Approximately 8/97. 7 Q In August of '97? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Where were you working? 10 A At the law firm I'm presently with. 11 Q Why did you call Mr. Nussbaum? 12 A I asked him if I could list his 13 name as a professional reference on my 14 resume. 15 Q You were at that time thinking of 16 leaving Dow, Lohnes? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q What did Mr. Nussbaum say? 19 A He said that I could. 20 Q Is there a record of your call to 21 Mr. Nussbaum? 22 A Not that I'm aware of, no. 108 1 Q Well, the law firm billing records 2 would have that, or law firm telephone 3 records would have that record, wouldn't it? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 5 MR. MILLS: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: I would have no idea 7 how they keep records. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Do you know who paid for that call? 10 A I would use my own code which is my 11 own private number to use it. 12 Q On your own extension. 13 A That's correct. 14 Q What's your extension? 15 A 2694. 16 Q What's the first prefix of the -- 17 A 776. 18 Q 776. Did you subsequently get a 19 job somewhere else? 20 A No, I did not. 21 Q You decided to stay. 22 A I did. 109 1 Q Did you discuss anything else with 2 Mr. Nussbaum during that call? 3 A No. I don't remember that there 4 were any other matters other than asking him 5 how he was and how his wife was. 6 Q Did you talk to him about your 7 White House experience? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you mention Vince Foster? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you have any contacts since the 12 time you left The White House with anyone 13 else you had worked with or knew or anyone 14 currently at The White House? 15 A No. Those are the only two 16 individuals. 17 Q Since the time you left The White 18 House, did you have any contact with any 19 lawyers at The White House? 20 A Mr. Eggleston, Neil Eggleston 21 visited me when I was at Wilmer & Cutler. 22 Q When were you at Wilmer & Cutler? 110 1 A From November of '93 until January 2 of '94. 3 Q Why did you leave Wilmer Cutler? 4 A I was offered a job to return to my 5 former law firm. 6 Q You didn't like working at Wilmer 7 Cutler? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: No. I did like it. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Then why did you leave? 12 A It was nice to go back to a home 13 that I'd known for so long. 14 Q Mr. Eggleston visited you after you 15 moved to Dow, Lohnes or while you were at 16 Wilmer Cutler? 17 A While I was at Wilmer. 18 Q Did you call Mr. Eggleston and say 19 "I want to meet with you"? 20 A No. 21 Q How did that meeting occur, how did 22 it get set up? 111 1 A He called me and asked if he could 2 meet with me. 3 Q What was your extension when he 4 called you, what was your phone number? 5 A I do not remember my phone number. 6 Q Who were you working for at Wilmer 7 Cutler? 8 A Robert McCormick. 9 Q Is he still there? 10 A I've heard that he is not. 11 Q He's not. 12 A That's correct. 13 Q What did Mr. Eggleston say to you 14 when he called you? 15 MR. MILLS: Objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: One moment, please, 17 just to consult with the witness' counsel. 18 (Witness conferred with counsel) 19 MS. SHAPIRO: We'll allow the 20 witness to answer the question on the 21 condition that there's no waiver of any 22 attorney-client privilege. 112 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, just for this 2 question. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: So that's agreeable 4 for this question. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, that's fine. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Would you 7 repeat the question? 8 (The reporter read the record as 9 requested.) 10 THE WITNESS: He asked if I could 11 meet with him. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did he tell you why? 14 A Not at that time, no. 15 Q When you spoke to Mr. Nussbaum did 16 he tell you whether or not you should be 17 talking to people about your experience at 18 The White House because you may be a witness 19 in a legal proceeding, did he ever mention 20 anything like that? 21 MR. MILLS: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: No. 113 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So you met with Mr. Eggleston. Did 3 he tell you during that conversation where he 4 wanted to meet with you? 5 A He asked me where it would be 6 convenient. 7 Q What did you tell him? 8 A He could come to the location where 9 I was working at the time. 10 Q Did he tell you why he wanted to 11 meet with you? 12 A No. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Same condition, that 14 she could answer the question as long as 15 there is no waiver of attorney-client 16 privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Were you alarmed when he called 19 you? 20 A No. 21 Q You didn't find it strange that 22 someone said "I want to meet with you" but 114 1 didn't tell you why? 2 A No. 3 Q You found that normal. 4 A I don't know if it's normal or not. 5 It didn't cause any alarm to me. 6 Q You knew Mr. Eggleston was a White 7 House lawyer. Correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Did you later have that meeting 10 with Mr. Eggleston? 11 A I did. 12 Q Where did that meeting take place? 13 A It took place in a conference room 14 at the law firm I was located in. 15 Q Mr. Eggleston was there? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did he come with anyone else? 18 A No. 19 Q You attended the meeting with him? 20 A Yes. 21 Q When did that meeting occur? 22 A Approximately December of '93. 115 1 Q Was anyone present other than you 2 and Mr. Eggleston in the meeting? 3 A No. 4 Q What did Mr. Eggleston tell you at 5 the meeting? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Before she answers 7 that question, again, the same stipulation, I 8 would ask that she could answer the question 9 so long as there's an agreement that there is 10 no waiver of attorney-client privilege. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 12 THE WITNESS: He asked me if I had 13 taken anything out of Vince's office that 14 belonged to him. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What else did he ask you? 17 A That's all he asked me. 18 Q What did you tell him? 19 A That I had nothing that belonged to 20 Vince. 21 Q Well, did you take anything out of 22 the office, however, that didn't belong to 116 1 Vince? 2 A I took my calendar that you have. 3 Q The one you produced today? 4 A Yes. 5 Q You had left your calendar in 6 Vince's office? 7 A I'm sorry. I'm confused. 8 Q The conversation was about what you 9 had taken out of Vince Foster's office. 10 A He wanted to know what I took out 11 of Vince Foster's office that belonged to 12 Vince, if I had anything. 13 Q Right. You said no. 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Did he want to know whether you 16 took stuff out the day or so after he died or 17 did he want to know whether you'd just taken 18 stuff out of The White House, period, when 19 you left? 20