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_____________________________________ CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, et al., Defendants. _____________________________________ |
) ) ) ) ) ) Civil No. 96-2123/97-1288 (RCL) ) ) ) ) ) |
12 Deposition of
13 LANNY J. DAVIS
14 a witness, called for examination by counsel
15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and
16 agreement of counsel, beginning at
17 approximately 10:11 a.m. at the offices of
18 Judicial Watch, 501 School Street S.W.,
19 Washington, D.C., before Michelle M. Howell,
20 notary public in and for the District of
21 Columbia, when were present on behalf of the
22 respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE
4 Judicial Watch
501 School Street S.W., Suite 725
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
(202) 646-5172
6
On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of
7 Investigation and the Executive
Office of the President:
8
ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
9 Federal Programs Branch
Civil Division
10 United States Department of Justice
901 E Street N.W.
11 P.O. Box 883
Washington, D.C. 20044
12
On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton:
13
PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE
14 Williams & Connolly
725 12th Street N.W.
15 Washington, D.C. 20005
(202) 434-5083
16
On behalf of Executive Office of the President:
17
SALLY PAXTON, ESQUIRE
18 Special Associate Counsel to the President
The White House
19 Washington, D.C. 20500
(202) 456-5079
20
21
22
3
1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D.):
2 On behalf of the witness:
3 TIMOTHY MILLS, ESQUIRE
Patton Boggs, LLP
4 2550 M Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20037
5 (202) 457-6000
6 ALSO PRESENT:
7 Sylvanus Holley, Video Technician
8 C O N T E N T S
9 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
10 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5
11 DAVIS DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
12 No. 1 - November 21, 1996 Press 67
Secretary Statement
13
No. 2 - Davis Subpoena 82
14
No. 3 - Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum 83
15
No. 4 - February 8, 1998 Transcript, 303
16 "Weekly Roundtable"
17 No. 5 - January 24, 1996 Fax, 328
Caputo to Carville
18
No. 6 - National Review Article, 423
19 "Obstruct Art"
20 No. 7 - September 6, 1996 Sherburne Memo 439
21
22 * * * * *
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This
3 is the video deposition of Lanny J. Davis,
4 taken by the counsel for the plaintiff in the
5 matter of Cara Leslie Alexander et al. v.
6 Federal Bureau of Investigation et al., case
7 number 96-2123, held in the office of
8 Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, S.W.,
9 Washington, D.C., on this date,
10 July 30, 1998, and at the time indicated on
11 the video screen, which is 10:11 a.m.
12 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am
13 the videographer. The court reporter today
14 is Michele Howell from the firm of Beta
15 Reporting.
16 Will counsel now introduce
17 themselves?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: My name is Larry
19 Klayman. I'm chairman general counsel of
20 Judicial Watch.
21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president,
22 Judicial Watch.
5
1 MR. MILLS: Timothy Mills, Patton
2 Boggs, LLP, representing Lanny J. Davis.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro on
4 behalf of EOP.
5 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton with the
6 White House.
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney,
8 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First
9 Lady.
10 Whereupon,
11 LANNY J. DAVIS
12 was called as a witness and, having been
13 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
14 as follows:
15 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Please state your name.
18 A Lanny, J. Davis.
19 Q When were you born, Mr. Davis?
20 A December 12, 1945.
21 Q Where were you born?
22 A Jersey City, New Jersey.
6
1 Q Run me through briefly your
2 educational background from high school to
3 postgraduate studies.
4 A High school, Newark Academy;
5 college, Yale; law school, Yale, LL.B.
6 Q What did you do, if anything, upon
7 graduating from Yale Law School,
8 professionally speaking?
9 A Do you want every job since law
10 school?
11 Q Yes.
12 A I worked for as a speechwriter for
13 then-Congressman Daddario (phonetic) of
14 Connecticut, of Hartford, Connecticut, who
15 was a candidate for Governor between June and
16 December of 1970. Then I worked for Senator
17 Edmund S. Muskie in his presidential campaign
18 here in Washington 1970-'72.
19 I was an associate attorney at the
20 law firm of Arnold & Porter between 1972
21 and '75. I have been at the firm of Patton
22 Boggs in Washington, D.C. since 1975.
7
1 Q Are you a partner at Patton and
2 Boggs?
3 A I am.
4 Q Did there come a point in time when
5 you ever run for political office or
6 considered running for political office?
7 A Yes.
8 Q When was that?
9 A In 1974 and then 1976.
10 Q Where had you decided to run for
11 political office?
12 A In the Eighth Congressional
13 District of Maryland.
14 Q Did you ultimately run?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q As a Congressman?
17 A I ran for Congressman.
18 Q You were not successful?
19 A Not successful.
20 Q You ran as a Democratic candidate?
21 A As a Democratic candidate.
22 Q During the course of your practice
8
1 at Patton Boggs, what is your specialty, if
2 any?
3 A Litigation.
4 Q Is there a type of litigations that
5 you specialize in more than others?
6 A No, not really.
7 Q Have you been in the litigation
8 department of Patton Boggs?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
10 facts not in evidence. No foundation.
11 THE WITNESS: We do not --
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Is there a litigation department at
14 Patton Boggs?
15 A Not formally. There is an informal
16 litigation group, and I am a member of that.
17 Q Who else is a member of that
18 litigation group, currently?
19 A It is not clear who are members.
20 People come in and come out. But I would say
21 approximately 20 or 30 of the partners
22 informally participate in the litigation
9
1 group.
2 Q Is your expertise district court
3 litigation?
4 A What do you mean by district court?
5 Federal district court?
6 Q Federal district court.
7 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous
8 with respect to the term expertise.
9 THE WITNESS: My activity has been
10 primarily in the federal courts, but not
11 necessarily the district court level.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Is your expertise more in civil
14 than criminal?
15 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
16 THE WITNESS: Mostly civil.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Or vice versa or the same?
19 A Mostly civil.
20 Q Did there come a point in time when
21 you took a leave of absence from Patton,
22 Boggs and Blow to become a member of the
10
1 White House staff?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
3 facts not in evidence, leave of absence.
4 THE WITNESS: No, that is not
5 correct.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you leave Patton Boggs to take
8 a job at the White House at some point?
9 A Yes.
10 Q When was that?
11 A In December of 1996.
12 Q You said you didn't take a leave of
13 absence. What, just generally speaking, were
14 the terms of your leaving Patton Boggs to
15 join the White House?
16 A I withdrew completely from the
17 partnership.
18 Q I don't mean to repeat things.
19 Just for purposes of clarity, it was December
20 of 1996?
21 A Exactly. It was December 9, 1996.
22 Q How is it that you came to leave
11
1 Patton Boggs and take a job at the White
2 House? What was the reason for doing that?
3 A I was given an offer by Mr. Quinn,
4 the then-White House counsel, and I accepted
5 the offer.
6 Q Up to December 9, 1996, had you
7 ever met President Bill Clinton?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When was the first time that you
10 met him?
11 A I can't recall specifically.
12 Q Just generally?
13 A It was probably in the fall
14 of 1970.
15 Q Under what circumstances did you
16 meet him?
17 A I believe it was in the context of
18 a political campaign then going on in
19 Connecticut, where I was living.
20 Q Which political campaign was that?
21 A I believe it was the Joe Duffy for
22 Senate campaign.
12
1 Q How was President Bill Clinton
2 involved in that campaign, if at all?
3 A I believe he was a volunteer in
4 that campaign.
5 Q You got to know him quite well?
6 A No, not quite well at all. Very --
7 Q How did get to know him?
8 A I think I was introduced to him
9 once or twice.
10 Q Did you have occasion to work with
11 him on that campaign?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q Other than that campaign, did you
14 have contact with him in later years, up to
15 the point of your taking the job in the White
16 House on December 9, 1996?
17 A Very infrequently.
18 Q Can you describe that generally for
19 us?
20 A I was a member of the Democratic
21 National Committee beginning in 1978. I
22 remember meeting him when he was Governor at
13
1 several Democratic National Committee
2 meetings.
3 Q What did you do for the DNC, as a
4 member, at that time?
5 A I don't know what you mean by what
6 did I do?
7 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q What was your role?
10 A My role? I was a member of the
11 full committee. I was a member at one point
12 of the executive committee. I was the
13 chairman of -- and an officer of the eastern
14 region caucus of the candidacy.
15 Q In all of those capacities, what
16 were your duties and responsibilities,
17 generally speaking?
18 A I didn't have really duties and
19 responsibilities. People who are on the DNC
20 are members who attend meetings.
21 I also served on the rules
22 committee, so I suppose I had a
14
1 responsibility to attend meetings and vote on
2 various rules pertaining to the 1988
3 convention.
4 But as a member, I was just a
5 participant. No real duties and
6 responsibilities.
7 Q How is it you that you came to
8 obtain those positions at the DNC?
9 A I was elected to serve as chairman
10 of the eastern region caucus and, therefore,
11 automatically a member of the executive
12 committee. I was appointed to be on the
13 rules committee by the then chairman.
14 Q When you say eastern district, you
15 mean eastern district of Maryland?
16 A If I said district I misspoke. The
17 eastern region caucus of the DNC encompasses
18 all of the states from Maine to, I think,
19 about Virginia.
20 Q Did you have to run to get elected
21 to that position?
22 A Yes.
15
1 Q So during your time at the DNC,
2 this began in 1978, what did it go up to in
3 terms of your duration of service?
4 A To 1992. Excuse me, 19 -- may I
5 correct the record? I was first elected to
6 the DNC in 1980. My last term ended in 1992.
7 So it was 1980 to 1992, not 1978.
8 Q During that period, were there any
9 other positions that you held for the DNC
10 that you haven't mentioned?
11 A To the best of my recollection, no.
12 Q It was during that period that you
13 got to work with Bill Clinton?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
15 facts not in evidence.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q I believe he just testified to it.
18 A I did not get to work with Bill
19 Clinton.
20 Q In what capacity did you come into
21 contact with him at the DNC?
22 A I believe attending a couple of
16
1 meetings. I shook his hand and said hello to
2 him, and that was it. I think I spoke to him
3 once or twice on social occasions,
4 receptions, that sort of thing.
5 Q Up to the present, were there other
6 occasions where you had contact with Bill
7 Clinton, up to the point of your White House
8 position?
9 A Up to the point of my White House
10 position, yes.
11 Q When was that?
12 A At various times during the
13 campaign of 1992, during 1991 and, in
14 particular, I had occasion to see him, talk
15 to him, shake his hand, speak to him on the
16 telephone.
17 Q Did you work with him or any of his
18 staff on any matters involving his election
19 campaign?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What were your duties and
22 responsibilities?
17
1 A I was a volunteer working on the
2 super delegates, of which I was one, as a
3 member of the DNC, meaning automatically
4 entitled to vote as a party or elected
5 official.
6 So I was a volunteer trying to
7 secure the support of other super delegates
8 at the '92 Democratic national convention.
9 Q During this time period leading up
10 to 1992, have you ever had occasion to meet
11 with Mrs. Hillary Clinton?
12 A During what time period?
13 Q The period leading up to 1992, when
14 you became a volunteer on behalf of the
15 Clinton campaign?
16 A Prior to '92?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Yes.
19 Q When did you first meet
20 Mrs. Clinton?
21 A What year?
22 Q Yes.
18
1 A I believe it would have been in the
2 fall of 1969.
3 Q How did you come to meet her?
4 A At law school.
5 Q Was she in law school at that time
6 along with you?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you meet Bill Clinton in law
9 school as well?
10 A No, I did not.
11 Q Did you get to know Mrs. Clinton in
12 law school?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you become a friend?
15 A I believed we were friends, yes.
16 Q Other than law school, have you had
17 contact with her since that time, up to 1992?
18 A Again, very infrequently. Same
19 answer as with then-Governor Clinton, I
20 believe. There were social occasions through
21 the Democratic National Committee where I had
22 occasion to say hello to her and shake her
19
1 hand.
2 Q During the time that you were in
3 law school at Yale, did you ever meet a
4 Steven Cohen?
5 A I believe the answer to that is
6 yes, but I am not sure, because there are
7 several Steven Cohens who seem to confuse me
8 as to if it was the same Steven Cohen that I
9 knew back then.
10 Q I am talking about the Steven Cohen
11 who is now professor at Georgetown?
12 A I am not sure if that is the same
13 Steven Cohen.
14 Q In the last six years, have you had
15 contact with a Steven Cohen?
16 A No.
17 Q Professor at Georgetown?
18 A No.
19 Q Are you aware of Steven Cohen,
20 professor at Georgetown, having contact with
21 others in the administration, the Clinton
22 administration?
20
1 A No, I am not.
2 Q Are you aware that Harold Ickes has
3 testified in this case that he had dinner
4 with Steven Cohen and discussed Linda Tripp?
5 A No.
6 Q But you do remember Steven Cohen at
7 Yale?
8 A I remember the name Steven Cohen,
9 quite frankly, but I am not sure it is
10 through the Yale connection. But I do
11 remember Steven Cohen while I was at Yale Law
12 School. But I don't think it was through
13 Yale Law School; it was through a political
14 campaign.
15 Q During the time you were at Yale,
16 did you participate in any political
17 activities with Hillary Clinton, any clubs
18 with her or anything like that?
19 A What is your question, "clubs"?
20 Q Anything. I am just trying to give
21 you a foundation to give me the background
22 information.
21
1 A I don't know what you mean by
2 "political activities." I believe she was
3 active in the Joe Duffy campaign during that
4 time period.
5 Q You were as well?
6 A I was active in the Joe Duffy
7 campaign, yes. But that was not my paid job.
8 I was a speechwriter for a gubernatorial
9 candidate, but I was working also for the Joe
10 Duffy campaign.
11 Q What contact, if any, did you have
12 with Mrs. Clinton after you graduated from
13 law school after 1992?
14 A The same answer that -- the same
15 question that you asked that had the same
16 answer.
17 Q Did you have any contact with her
18 in terms of attending parties where she was
19 present, or did you have contact in working
20 on political campaigns? That is what I am
21 looking for.
22 A I am happy to repeat what I
22
1 previously answered one more time.
2 I had infrequent contact. I can't
3 remember specifically, but as with
4 then-Governor Clinton, I believe it was as a
5 member of the DNC, at social functions or
6 meetings. Infrequently, I remember seeing
7 her and the Governor and saying hello to both
8 of them.
9 Q Did you work with her on any
10 matters, political or otherwise?
11 A When?
12 Q Up to 1992.
13 A No.
14 Q In 1992, when you were a volunteer,
15 did you work with the President or First Lady
16 up to the point of their election in November
17 of that year?
18 A I worked for the President as a
19 volunteer. I wouldn't say I worked with him,
20 then-Governor.
21 Q Who was it that you worked most
22 with during the 1992 campaigns?
23
1 A Her name is Nancy McFadden. She
2 was a paid employee in the Washington
3 campaign headquarters, and I was assigned to
4 work with her on the super delegate efforts.
5 Q Where is she located today?
6 A I think she is at the Department of
7 Transportation.
8 Q During the 1992 campaign, or
9 before, did you ever come to know James
10 Carville?
11 A No.
12 Q You didn't get to know him even
13 during 1992?
14 A No.
15 Q Did there come a later point in
16 time when you became acquainted with James
17 Carville?
18 A I think I have shaken his hand
19 maybe two or three times and said hello and
20 exchanged a couple of sentences with him two
21 or three times. I think I spoke to him once
22 or twice while I was at the White House, and
24
1 that is it.
2 Q While you were at the White House,
3 under what circumstances did you speak with
4 him once or twice?
5 A I think he called me to ask me a
6 couple of questions and I gave him --
7 regarding some press reports, and I gave him
8 some answers.
9 Q What was the subject matter of
10 those press reports?
11 A I can't remember. Something to do
12 with campaign finance.
13 Q Did it have anything to do with
14 Filegate or government files?
15 A No.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous,
17 the term Filegate.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Do you know what I mean by
20 Filegate, Mr. Davis?
21 A I am not sure, tell me what you
22 mean.
25
1 Q What do you understand Filegate to
2 mean? You define it.
3 A I think it has been used to
4 reference the obtaining of FBI files by the
5 White House at some point in 1996. Is that
6 what you mean by it?
7 Q Well, let's take for purposes of
8 this deposition that when I talk about
9 Filegate, it would be either the obtaining of
10 FBI files by the White House between 1993
11 and 1996, or the use of government files
12 generally with regard to gathering
13 information on individuals?
14 A All right.
15 MR. MILLS: I am going to object to
16 that as ambiguous. If you have questions,
17 specific questions that you wanted to ask
18 about the subject matter of obtaining or
19 using government files, please ask those
20 questions specifically so that the witness
21 will understand them.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we will try to
26
1 be as specific as possible, Mr. Mills, if you
2 would like to do any cross-examine at the end
3 of my direct.
4 MR. MILLS: I assert my right to
5 object on each question.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. That is fine.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q In 1992, when you worked on the
9 campaign, did you have any expectation of
10 being rewarded in any way?
11 A No.
12 Q Were you rewarded in any way after
13 that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How was that?
16 A He was elected.
17 Q That was just a psychological
18 reward.
19 A It was a very strong personal
20 reward. I was happy that he was elected.
21 Q Did the fact that you worked on
22 the 1992 campaign, in your opinion,
27
1 contribute to your ability to get a job at
2 the White House?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection. Requesting
4 opinion evidence. This is a fact witness.
5 His opinions are irrelevant to the subject of
6 your inquiry.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, I have no
8 objection to legitimate objection. I don't
9 think this is a trick question. We would
10 like to move it along with Mr. Davis. We are
11 not here in any way to make anything
12 difficult. We just want to get the
13 information.
14 MR. MILLS: That is fine. You can
15 ask questions allowed by the rules and by the
16 court's order, and I will put my
17 objections --
18 MR. KLAYMAN: The fact is,
19 witnesses are allowed to give opinions under
20 the rules of evidence.
21 MR. MILLS: This is not an expert
22 witness, this is a fact witness. If you want
28
1 to ask him about facts, ask him about facts.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Federal rules provide
3 it even with fact witnesses.
4 MR. MILLS: There will be
5 objections made as to any requests for
6 opinions.
7 THE WITNESS: What is the question?
8 Would you repeat the question? I forgot.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did your having worked on the 1992
11 campaign help you get a job at the White
12 House when you left Patton Boggs?
13 A I have no idea if that was part of
14 the motivation.
15 Q How did you get that job?
16 A Circumstances.
17 Q Were you recommended for it?
18 A I don't know whether I was
19 recommended for it.
20 Q What was the job that you took at
21 the White House?
22 A Special counsel to the President.
29
1 Q Did there come a point in time when
2 someone explained to you what the duties and
3 responsibilities of special counsel to the
4 President would be?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When was that?
7 A Excuse me. It would be late
8 November 1996, mid- to late November 1996.
9 Q How is it that you learned that
10 that job was open?
11 A I didn't learn it was open
12 specifically.
13 Q Did someone contact you?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Who?
16 A Mr. Quinn.
17 Q What did he say to you at the time?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. He is not
19 going to testify as to his conversation with
20 Mr. Quinn, except if he wants to testify as
21 to whether it was about the obtaining or
22 misuse of government files.
30
1 MR. KLAYMAN: To discuss what his
2 duties and responsibilities were?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: That's right. The
4 Court has already ruled on that question that
5 it wasn't relevant. You asked the same
6 question with respect to Mr. Begala and how
7 he obtained his job.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: It is a different
9 circumstance. He wasn't with the government
10 at the time. That was with regard to
11 presidential communication.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: It is also a
13 presidential communication.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: You claimed executive
15 privilege on -- not that it was sustained --
16 it was another basis that the Court made its
17 ruling.
18 I am just trying to get background
19 information. That is a bizarre objection.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think it is a
21 bizarre objection.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not allowed to
31
1 find out what you have been told as to what
2 this witness's duties and responsibilities
3 are?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: He can described what
5 his duties and responsibilities were, but he
6 is not going to tell you specifically his
7 conversation with Jack Quinn.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked a specific
9 question about duties and responsibility.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: My recollection of
11 the question was what the discussion was.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q What were you told by Jack Quinn in
14 terms of what your duties and
15 responsibilities would be?
16 MR. MILLS: There is an outstanding
17 objection on the table, and I believe there
18 is an instruction to the witness not to
19 answer with respect to privilege. That was
20 precisely to the question that you just
21 asked, Mr. Klayman. You have asked that
22 question twice now. It has been objected to
32
1 twice now.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: He can answer the
3 question with respect to duties and
4 responsibilities.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I will ask that this
6 be certified. We will undoubtedly going to
7 have to go down to the Court at some point
8 today. We will make a list of these various
9 questions, so I don't have to bother the
10 judge over and over again.
11 THE WITNESS: What is the question?
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q What were your duties and
14 responsibilities?
15 A As special counsel to the
16 President?
17 Q Yes.
18 A I was primarily responsible to deal
19 with the White House press corps on certain
20 issues. And by dealing with the press corps,
21 that meant answering their inquiries,
22 providing them factual information to the
33
1 best extent that I could, and to assist them
2 in doing their jobs.
3 Q Had you had any prior experience in
4 dealing with the press before you were
5 offered this position at the White House?
6 A Not as an employee, and not
7 officially, no.
8 Q But how about unofficially?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What experience had you had?
11 A In long years in politics, I had
12 come to know and understand and work with
13 members of the press corps who covered
14 national politics and local Maryland
15 politics.
16 Q Were you recommended for this
17 position at the White House by anyone?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q Did you fill out a formal
20 application?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q Did you submit any letters with
34
1 regard to your application, oral application?
2 A No, not with respect to an
3 application.
4 Q Was there any correspondence
5 exchanged between you and the White House
6 with regard to this position?
7 A I don't believe so.
8 Q Do you have a file that you kept in
9 terms of your trying to obtain, and
10 ultimately obtaining, this position in the
11 White House counsel's office?
12 A No.
13 Q Did you go through any kind of
14 interview process for this job?
15 A I don't know what you mean by
16 "interview."
17 Q Did you actually go over to the
18 White House and interview with Mr. Quinn?
19 A I had a meeting with and discussion
20 with Mr. Quinn before I accepted the job,
21 yes.
22 Q Was anyone else present at that
35
1 meeting?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Who was present?
4 A Bruce Lindsey, Cheryl Mills.
5 Q Anyone else?
6 A Excuse me, not Cheryl Mills. What
7 is her name? Kathy Wallman.
8 Q Who is Kathy Wallman?
9 A I believe then she was deputy White
10 House counsel.
11 Q Anyone else present?
12 A I don't believe so.
13 Q Was there more than one meeting?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Where did the other meetings taking
16 place?
17 A Mr. Quinn's office and
18 Ms. Wallman's office.
19 Q Did the individuals present, did
20 they vary in any way from one meeting to the
21 next?
22 A Yes. The only meeting that
36
1 Mr. Lindsey was at was the first meeting.
2 Q The others were present at the
3 subsequent meetings?
4 A I met alone with Mr. Quinn and
5 alone with Miss Wallman on a subsequent
6 occasion several days later.
7 Q During any of those meetings, was
8 Filegate discussed?
9 A As you previously defined it?
10 Q Yes.
11 A No.
12 Q During any of those meetings, were
13 the so-called Clinton scandals discussed by
14 subject matter?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 Relevancy.
18 MR. MILLS: Relevancy and
19 ambiguous.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I will narrow it, I
21 am just trying to lay a foundation.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you
37
1 mean by scandals.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Let's cite a few. Campaign finance
4 scandal?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
6 MR. MILLS: Objection.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Do you know what I am referring to?
9 A But I don't understand the word
10 "scandal" after the words "campaign finance."
11 Q Would you rather I use the word
12 "controversy"?
13 A That's okay.
14 Q I'll use the word "controversy." I
15 think Rick Kaplan said and instructed
16 everyone to use "controversy."
17 A I wouldn't know about Mr. Kaplan's
18 direction, but "controversy" is a neutral
19 word, yeah.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I am going to
21 instruct the witness not to disclose the
22 substance of his conversations in terms other
38
1 than what it wasn't about.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q We will use the term "controversy"
4 rather than "scandal"?
5 A Your question was?
6 Q Was the campaign finance
7 controversy discussed?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. I
9 instruct the witness not to answer.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Just subject matter.
11 I'm not asking for the actual discussions.
12 He can respond.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: He can't respond.
14 Wait a minute.
15 THE WITNESS: What is the rule if I
16 want to talk to my counsel off the record?
17 Is there a dead mike rule? How do I do this
18 if I want to consult with counsel --
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I would take a mike
20 off.
21 THE WITNESS: Just take it off?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: You do like Harold
39
1 Ickes and just throw it on the table with an
2 expletive deleted.
3 (Witness conferred with counsel)
4 MS. SHAPIRO: My instruction is the
5 following. I will allow him to testify as to
6 the subject matter, generally, of the entire
7 conversation. I am not going to allow him to
8 answer specifics with about what controversy
9 was or was not discussed, because that is
10 tantamount to revealing the substance of the
11 conversation.
12 So if you can answer the question
13 based on that instruction.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q I don't understand the instruction,
16 but let's try it over again.
17 Did you discuss during any of these
18 meetings the campaign finance controversy?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I object and instruct
20 the witness not to answer the question. As I
21 just explained, he is not to disclose the
22 specific topics of what was discussed. He
40
1 can discuss generally what the subject of the
2 meeting was.
3 THE WITNESS: The general subject
4 of the meeting was the areas that I would be
5 talking to the press corps about as part of
6 my job.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q What were those areas?
9 A Without regard to what was
10 discussed, what was my areas of
11 responsibilities?
12 Q Yes.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer that
14 question.
15 THE WITNESS: Without regard to any
16 discussions, my areas of responsibilities
17 were almost exclusively to talk to the press
18 about and to assist the press in writing
19 stories concerning campaign finance
20 allegations.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Were you also assigned the same
41
1 type of duties and responsibilities with
2 regard to the controversy known as
3 Travelgate?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous.
5 I don't know what Travelgate is, the use of
6 the term is.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Do you know what Travelgate is?
9 A I am afraid I have the same problem
10 with the word "gate" as I did earlier.
11 Q What do you understand Travelgate
12 to be?
13 A I remember a controversy over the
14 firing of travel office employees, and I
15 think I have seen the expression Travelgate
16 associated with that controversy.
17 Q Let's define it that way. Were
18 your duties and responsibilities related to
19 Travelgate as well in communicating with the
20 press?
21 A They were not.
22 Q Were they related in any way to FBI
42
1 files?
2 A They were not.
3 Q Were they related in any way to
4 Paula Corbin Jones and that controversy?
5 A They were not.
6 Q Were they related in any way to
7 controversy known as Whitewater?
8 A The answer is, they were not.
9 There were times when some of the issues I
10 dealt with related to Whitewater, but my
11 responsibility was primarily in the area of
12 campaign finance issues.
13 Q Were they related to any of the
14 other Clinton controversies?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
16 THE WITNESS: You will have to be
17 more specific. Which ones?
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Related in any way to the
20 activities of Commerce secretary Ron Brown?
21 A Maybe once or twice a few stories
22 relating to Mr. Brown. I had some calls
43
1 about it and I tried to assist reporters
2 about it. But that is very, very rare.
3 Q Related to any way the controversy
4 surrounding the death of Vince Foster?
5 A No.
6 Q Related in any way to the
7 controversy surrounding the White House
8 billing records?
9 A White House billing records?
10 Q You are aware that in the living
11 quarters of the White House, certain
12 documents that had been requested by the
13 independent counsel were found months after
14 they had been requested?
15 A I didn't know they were White House
16 billing records.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Rose law firm billing records?
20 A I had no responsibility for that.
21 Q Let's certify this whole line of
22 questioning. I take it you will instruct the
44
1 witness not to respond, Ms. Shapiro, on any
2 of the Clinton controversies, specifically in
3 terms of discussions with Jack Quinn and
4 others?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: I think you should
6 take it question by question. If there is a
7 way to work around objections, I am always
8 willing to do that.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I that is
10 disingenuous on your part, because I am just
11 trying to speed this along for everybody's
12 benefit.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: I can't possibly
14 anticipate what --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: You are saying if I
16 ask the same question that I asked with
17 Travelgate for any of these other
18 controversies I mentioned, your answer would
19 be different?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: What question would
21 you ask?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
45
1 Q Did you discuss FBI files with Jack
2 Quinn or anybody else during these
3 meetings --
4 MS. SHAPIRO: He will answer
5 questions about FBI files, and he will answer
6 the question about use or misuse of
7 government files generally.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Did you ever discuss with Jack
10 Quinn or anyone else during the meetings
11 leading up to your employment anything
12 dealing with FBI or government files?
13 A Never, not before, not during and
14 not since. With one -- let me kind of modify
15 that.
16 During the time that I was not at
17 the White House, I have had occasion to be on
18 a couple of television shows where the
19 subject of FBI files came up. On those
20 occasions, I did have some discussions on
21 those topics. But not when I went to the
22 White House.
46
1 Q When was it that you left the White
2 House to return to Patton Boggs and Blow?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection. The name of
4 the law firm is Patton Boggs.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Sorry about that.
6 When did it change?
7 MR. MILLS: I don't recall, but it
8 was before Mr. Davis left and before
9 Mr. Davis came back.
10 THE WITNESS: I left the White
11 House --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Is Mr. Blow still
13 there?
14 MR. MILLS: Mr. Blow is retired.
15 THE WITNESS: I left the White
16 House last January 30.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q January 30 of 1998?
19 A Yes.
20 Q As part of your duties and
21 responsibilities when you became a member of
22 the White House counsel's staff, it was to go
47
1 on television shows and talk about Clinton
2 controversies, correct?
3 A Would you repeat that question?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q As part of your duties and
7 responsibilities as special counsel in the
8 White House legal office, it was to go on
9 television shows and discuss the Clinton
10 controversies that I just mentioned?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection. You
12 mentioned a lot of controversies. Misstates
13 testimony. Mr. Davis has told you that many
14 of the controversies that you mentioned were
15 not within his areas of responsibility.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Please do not give
17 speaking objections. The Court admonished
18 that type of objection in this case.
19 MR. MILLS: I think I am entitled
20 to make my record on how you mischaracterize
21 testimony.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: If you continue to
48
1 make a record, Mr. Mills, I have no choice
2 but to move for appropriate relief.
3 MR. MILLS: I will make my record,
4 Mr. Klayman, and do whatever you feel you
5 must do.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: We will certainly do
7 that.
8 MR. MILLS: Thank you.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think that
10 should impede us from trying to work things
11 out amicably. Basically, I am advising you
12 that the Court on several occasions has asked
13 the parties not to make speaking objections.
14 MR. MILLS: I have always abided by
15 court orders, and I intend to do so here,
16 Mr. Klayman. If there is a controversy that
17 comes up here where you feel I am not, you
18 can take that to the Court, and we will
19 adjudicate it.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I am sorry you have
21 that attitude. Certify it.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
49
1 Q You can respond.
2 A You need to repeat the question.
3 Q As part of your duties and
4 responsibilities as special White House
5 counsel, were you authorized to go on
6 television shows and talk about the various
7 Clinton controversies I just mentioned?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection as
9 before.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Campaign finance, Filegate,
12 Travelgate, Whitewater?
13 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, objection.
14 Compound. Why don't you ask the question one
15 at a time?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
17 THE WITNESS: The answer is no.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q So the White House told you you
20 could not talk about any controversies other
21 than campaign finance when you went on TV?
22 A That is not correct either.
50
1 Q What was your authority?
2 A There were occasions where I was
3 permitted to -- as to one when it comes to
4 speak to the media on television, relating to
5 a particular issue, that it was judged to be
6 appropriate for me to speak about.
7 Q Your duties and responsibilities,
8 you were authorized to speak to the media
9 about various issues, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q The primary issue was campaign
12 finance?
13 A Correct.
14 Q But you were authorized to speak
15 about other Clinton controversies; correct?
16 A I don't believe that is correct.
17 Q So you are saying that when you
18 discussed Filegate on TV, that you didn't
19 have the authority of the White House to do
20 that?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
22 facts not in evidence. Foundation.
51
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q You can respond.
4 A You are not accurately describing
5 when I spoke about the subject of the file
6 controversy and when I was at the White
7 House.
8 The file controversy comments that
9 I made on television was before I was at the
10 White House.
11 Q So you never discussed FBI or
12 government files on television during the
13 period you were at the White House?
14 A I never did.
15 Q You are absolutely certain?
16 A I am not absolutely certain of it.
17 I believe I never did.
18 Q You were in power, however, to go
19 on television as part of your duties and
20 responsibilities?
21 A That was part of my duties and
22 responsibilities, yes.
52
1 Q Each time that you appeared on
2 television while you were working at the
3 White House, did you have to get specific
4 permission to do that?
5 A I wouldn't use the word
6 "permission," no.
7 Q How did it work? How did you
8 determine that you were allowed to go on a
9 particular TV show and speak?
10 A I think there was a general
11 consensus that would develop that we needed
12 to respond to press inquiries in public
13 rather than over the telephone. And after
14 some discussions, we came to a consensus.
15 Q Who did you have the discussions
16 with?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. We are
18 going to consult with counsel for a moment.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. MILLS: Let's go off the record
21 for a minute, please.
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
53
1 video record at 10:49.
2 (Recess)
3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
4 record at 10:51.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: The direction I
6 asserted is the only problem that we are
7 going to have is that the witness just
8 testified that while he was at the White
9 House, he didn't speak about FBI files or
10 misuse of government files. So there is
11 nothing more that is relevant to know about
12 the workings of his office and his television
13 appearances.
14 So I think that the question that
15 you have asked is already outside of the
16 Court's order.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: First of all, you
18 don't get to determine issues of relevancy.
19 The Court has made that clear. You cannot
20 instruct a witness not to answer on the basis
21 of relevancy.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: The Court has,
54
1 itself, defined the relevancy issues, and I
2 can instruct him not to answer based on the
3 Court's ruling. That would be Rule 30 of the
4 Federal rules.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't do that,
6 because as we discussed many times, we are
7 entitled to understand his authority, what
8 his position was at the White House. These
9 are issues that deal with his role at the
10 White House.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: You asked that
12 question, and he has answered it.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: That is the basis of
14 these questions. Whether or not he ever
15 discussed Filegate or not is not relevant.
16 We are entitled to get into that aspects of
17 his duties and responsibility.
18 If you instruct him not to answer,
19 you do it at very, very great risk. I am
20 asking you not to do that.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: I think we are going
22 to have a problem, then, because the Court's
55
1 order is very clear, and it has reiterated
2 its order several times now that the issues
3 on the table are the FBI files matter, or
4 generally, the misuse of government files.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: The Court also ruled
6 that we are entitled to get into background.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think there
8 has been a ruling about background. I think
9 that your obligation is to tie it into the
10 issues that are relevant.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the
12 question?
13 (The reporter read the record as
14 requested.)
15 MR. KLAYMAN: That establishes who
16 he was in contact with, who he works with.
17 That is relevant.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Why don't you ask him
19 who he works with?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand
21 the objection of finding out who he is in
22 contact with in terms of arranging for his TV
56
1 appearances. Why does there need to be a
2 fight about that?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Because there is an
4 order defining the scope of relevant issues
5 on the table. You are not entitled to go
6 into the workings of counsel's office. That
7 is not the subject of this lawsuit.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: It is the subject of
9 this lawsuit. The White House counsel's
10 office is deeply involved in Filegate.
11 MR. MILLS: The testimony of record
12 shows that Mr. Davis, while he was at the
13 White House, had nothing to do with the FBI
14 files, the use or obtaining or illegal use of
15 obtaining FBI files. So, Mr. Klayman, I
16 would join in the objection.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not going to
18 waste any time here. We will just make a
19 list and go down to Judge Lamberth's
20 (phonetic) at the appropriate time. This is
21 what you want to do; that is fine.
22 The Court has made certain rules.
57
1 The Court has issued certain sanctions. We
2 will take it up with the Court.
3 MR. MILLS: We will also take up
4 with the Court, Mr. Klayman. I will put on
5 the record that I consider this, as
6 Mr. Davis's counsel, as subject to the
7 objection we already put on the record. This
8 is outside of the scope, of the permissible
9 scope of your inquiries.
10 I will seek sanctions against you
11 as well for inquiries outside of the scope.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: We will seek
13 sanctions for your seeking sanctions.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me make it
15 clear --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Of which there is a
17 case law, as you know, as litigators.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I want to make it
19 clear we don't object to you asking about who
20 he works with generally. What we object to
21 is you trying to narrow into specific issues
22 that are outside of the Court's order by
58
1 asking specifically who he spoke to about
2 specific issues, which is what the question
3 was.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Unfortunately this is
5 no aspersion to Mr. Davis, but there have
6 been witnesses in this case who, when you ask
7 a question one way, you get one answer and
8 when you ask it a different way, you get a
9 different answer.
10 The best way to get an
11 understanding of what his duties and
12 responsibilities are is to see who Mr. Davis
13 works with on a routine basis.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: He can answer who he
15 works with generally. I just said I don't
16 object to that question. I object to you
17 trying to narrow in on the work product of
18 the counsel's office.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to know in
20 what capacity. Let the record also reflect
21 to the extent we get in these discussions and
22 to the extent that you hold this as our use
59
1 of time, we will be asking for an extension
2 of this deposition accordingly.
3 MR. MILLS: Let the record also
4 reflect the Court already said that these
5 depositions -- this deposition and all
6 depositions in this case -- are limited to
7 six hours of testimony.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: But when get
9 objections like this which are unnecessary
10 and go round and round, in my view, it is
11 only attended to run off the clock. This
12 Justice Department does this routinely.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: We are entitled to
14 object, like every counsel.
15 MR. MILLS: That is all part of the
16 time.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. Certify
18 it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q During the period that you were at
21 the White House, who have you worked with?
22 A I am sorry. I meant to turn this
60
1 off.
2 Q Is that the President calling?
3 A I just turned it off. I am sorry.
4 The only thing I am nervous about -- can we
5 go off the record? I have a little baby.
6 Should I turn it off?
7 Q If you want to take the call, that
8 is fine. If you want to identify who it is,
9 if you are nervous about it, I understand
10 that. Want to go off the record and call?
11 A No. How much longer before our
12 first recess?
13 MR. MILLS: Ten minutes. Okay,
14 continue. What was your question?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q My question was, who did you work
17 with on a routine basis during the period you
18 were with the White House?
19 A I work with senior officials in the
20 White House counsel's office and in the west
21 wing.
22 Q Who are they?
61
1 A You want everybody?
2 Q Yes.
3 A I can't promise you I will remember
4 everybody, but I will tell you as many as I
5 possibly remember. Adam Goldberg and Tess
6 Johnson were my two deputies.
7 Q What were their duties and
8 responsibilities?
9 A Assisting me in working with the
10 press.
11 Lanny Breuer, who was a special
12 counsel to the President in charge of
13 investigations.
14 Q What investigations?
15 A Any investigations taking place by
16 the Congressional committees on campaign
17 finance and other possible issues.
18 Q Including FBI and government files?
19 A I do not know whether he was
20 involved in that.
21 Q He worked for you, didn't he?
22 A No. In fact, I reported to him on
62
1 the campaign finance issues.
2 Q Who else?
3 A Various members of the team that
4 worked for Lanny Breuer. Do you want me to
5 name those names?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Dimitri Nionakis.
8 Q How is that spelled?
9 A N-i-o-n-a-k-i-s. Michael
10 Imbroscio, I-m-b-r-o-s-c-i-o, I believe.
11 Q These are all people in
12 Mr. Breuer's team?
13 A Right. Karen Popp, P-o-p-p.
14 Cheryl Mills, Mr. Ruff, and Mr. Quinn, when
15 he was there. Mike McCurry and his various
16 associates in the press office. And those
17 would be the primary ones I would work with.
18 Q Was there anyone that you worked
19 with in the President's office?
20 A What do you mean by "the
21 President's office"?
22 Q The President?
63
1 A I know the President, but what do
2 you mean, his "office"?
3 Q Was anybody in his inner office
4 that you worked with, that you had routine
5 contact with?
6 A What do you mean by "inner office"?
7 Q In and around his office suite?
8 A In and around his office suite.
9 Q Did you work with the chief of
10 staff, for instance, on a regular basis?
11 A Okay. No, not the chief of staff.
12 The deputy chief of staff, John Podesta, I
13 would have worked with on a regular basis.
14 Q What was the nature of your contact
15 with Mr. Podesta?
16 A Regular meetings during the
17 campaign finance hearings.
18 Q During these?
19 A Prior to and during.
20 Q During these meetings, I am not
21 asking for the specifics, but generally, why
22 did these meetings take place?
64
1 MR. MILLS: Objection. Relevancy
2 to this case.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You can respond.
5 A To plan for the coming
6 Congressional hearings, or during the
7 hearings, to discuss the press inquiries
8 associated with the hearings or the campaign
9 finance issues and my responses to those
10 inquiries.
11 Q We never finished this line of
12 questioning. Was there any procedure at the
13 White House before you did a television
14 appearance that you would have to go through
15 to clear your doing the television
16 appearance?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: One moment, please.
18 That is the same question that we objected to
19 earlier.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go off the
21 record, because we don't want our time used.
22 We are not going to count this as our time.
65
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
2 video record at 11:03.
3 (Discussion off the record)
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Back on the record.
5 VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please.
6 We are back on the video record at 11:04.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: He described
8 generally, and I have allowed him to answer
9 questions generally, about who he works with
10 and his duties and responsibilities. But the
11 specific workings and work product of the
12 counsel's office, I am going to instruct him
13 not to answer, including the question about
14 on specific issues, how he would obtain
15 approval or requests to appear on television
16 shows.
17 So instruct the witness not to
18 answer.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying that
20 to obtain approval to say something publicly
21 is part of a work product privilege?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
66
1 MR. KLAYMAN: That is in
2 anticipation of litigation?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Is it not true that Mike McCurry,
7 press secretary of the White House, described
8 you to the media as the one to see to discuss
9 Clinton controversies?
10 A That is not correct.
11 Q Why is it not correct?
12 A The word "controversy" is much too
13 broad.
14 Q How would you define it?
15 A Campaign finance issues, for the
16 most part.
17 Q You are saying that Mike McCurry
18 never said to the media that Lanny Davis was
19 limited to campaign finance only?
20 A That he never said that?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
22 THE WITNESS: I think he did tell
67
1 them I was primarily responsible for
2 questions and information pertaining to the
3 campaign finance issues.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q He also told them that you are
6 responsible for Clinton controversies
7 generally, correct?
8 A I don't know what he told them, but
9 that is not my observation, no.
10 Q Was there someone in the White
11 House counsel's office that the media was to
12 contact concerning the FBI file matter, the
13 government file matter?
14 A I don't know.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
16 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
17 Exhibit No. 1.
18 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 1
19 was marked for identification.)
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Exhibit No. 1 is a White House
22 statement by the press secretary Mike McCurry
68
1 dated November 21, 1996. Have you ever seen
2 this document before?
3 A I don't think so. I don't believe
4 so.
5 Q Based upon your experience in
6 working at the White House, was it your
7 understanding that the press secretary, Mike
8 McCurry, could make representations about you
9 and your background without talking to you
10 first?
11 A I have no idea how to answer that
12 question.
13 Q First paragraph reads, "The White
14 House announced today that Lanny J. Davis
15 will join the White House counsel's office as
16 special counsel, effective December 9,
17 1996" -- I'm adding the 1996 -- "to serve as
18 press spokesman on certain legal issues,
19 including those related to the Whitewater and
20 travel office investigations, and to recent
21 questions regarding campaign contributions."
22 A That was probably -- certainly was
69
1 the perception of the press office when they
2 did this press release at the time. It is
3 was not my understanding of my job
4 responsibilities.
5 This is dated November 1, 1996 and
6 I didn't begin the job until December 9. It
7 is possible that they believed I was going to
8 be responsible for those issues before I
9 arrived, but that was not any understanding.
10 Q So you are saying that this
11 statement by Mike McCurry is false?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection.
13 Mischaracterizes his testimony.
14 THE WITNESS: It appears to be, in
15 retrospect, inaccurate. It may have been
16 accurate at the time. That is there may have
17 been an expectation at the time that I was
18 hired that I was to speak to those issues,
19 although that was not my understanding.
20 In retrospect, it certainly isn't
21 accurate, because I did not speak at all to
22 the travel office investigations. I did, as
70
1 I said earlier, just touch upon some
2 Whitewater issues incidentally.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Are you saying no one ever told you
5 at the White House that you would be in
6 charge of Whitewater and travel office
7 matters in terms of communication to the
8 press?
9 A Not travel office matters, and not,
10 except incidentally, Whitewater matters. The
11 primary job I was described when I first
12 talked to Mr. Quinn was to deal with the
13 pending Congressional investigations and
14 press inquiries, which were then very intense
15 in December of 1996, concerning the campaign
16 finance allegations.
17 Q You are saying no one ever said to
18 you, "Lanny, you are going to be responsible
19 for Whitewater and the travel controversy as
20 well"?
21 A Correct.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
71
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Let's read the rest of this.
3 "Mr. Davis has been a partner in the
4 Washington, D.C. law firm of Patton Boggs
5 since 1978. He has also been active in the
6 Democratic Party and in national, state and
7 local politics. Mr. Davis has appeared as a
8 private citizen on a number of television and
9 radio programs to address questions relating
10 to the issues he will work on in the
11 counsel's office.
12 "He replaces Mark Fabiani, who
13 resigned from counsel's office after having
14 served for the past year and a half as White
15 House spokesman on these issues.
16 "Mr. Davis served three terms as a
17 representative for the state of Maryland on
18 the Democratic National Committee. He served
19 on the DNC executive committee and as
20 chairman of the eastern region caucus. He is
21 a former chairman of the Washington Suburban
22 Transit Commission and the Commission on
72
1 Reorganization of Montgomery County, Maryland
2 government.
3 "The author of The Emerging
4 Democratic Majority: Lessons and Legacies
5 from the New Politics, (1973), Mr. Davis
6 received his BA from Yale College and his
7 LL.B. from Yale Law School. He joined Patton
8 Boggs in 1975 after two years with the
9 Arnold & Porter law firm in Washington, D.C.
10 "Mr. Davis and his wife, Carolyn
11 Atwell-Davis, reside in Potomac, Maryland."
12 Where did the White House press
13 office get this information to be able to
14 prepare this press release, which has a lot
15 of your background?
16 A I sent them a biographical
17 statement.
18 Q You did have contact with them over
19 the preparation of this press release?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection.
21 Mischaracterizes his testimony. Assumes
22 facts not in evidence.
73
1 THE WITNESS: They asked me for
2 biographical information and I sent it to
3 them.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q They sent you a back a copy of the
6 press release they intended to issue on your
7 behalf?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection. Is that a
9 statement or a question?
10 THE WITNESS: I don't think so.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q The travel office controversy, that
13 involves an individual by the name of Billy
14 Dale, does it not?
15 A I believe so.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You are aware that the obtained the
19 FBI file on Billy Dale?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
21 THE WITNESS: I am not sure of
22 that.
74
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You have heard that, haven't you?
3 A I can't be sure I have heard that
4 his FBI files were obtained for --
5 Q For Billy Dale?
6 A I don't think I knew that.
7 Q You didn't know that until I just
8 said that?
9 A I don't think so.
10 Q As part of your daily activities at
11 the White House, did you read various
12 newspapers and publications?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What newspapers and publications
15 did you read?
16 A The major national newspapers and
17 some local newspapers.
18 Q What were the major national
19 newspapers?
20 A New York Times, Wall Street
21 Journal, Washington Post, USA Today.
22 Q Did you read the same newspapers
75
1 when you were previously with Patton Boggs?
2 A No. I actually read the Washington
3 Post.
4 Q Did you also read the Washington
5 Times when you were at the White House?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q You still read the Washington
8 Times?
9 A Once in awhile.
10 Q Have you ever heard of an
11 individual by the name of Mr. Brasseux?
12 A No.
13 Q Are you aware that his file was
14 obtained as well by the White House?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q B-r-a-s-s-e-u-x?
18 A No, I was not aware of that.
19 Q Are you aware he worked in the
20 travel office with Mr. Dale?
21 A I was not aware of that.
22 Could we go off the record?
76
1 Never mind.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to take
3 your five-minute break?
4 THE WITNESS: I was going to ask
5 you.
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
7 video record at 11:13.
8 (Discussion off the record)
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video record
10 at 11:26.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Before we start, I am
12 going to withdraw the objection and, for
13 purposes of moving this along, I am allowing
14 Mr. Davis to answer the question about how he
15 went about getting authorization to appear on
16 his TV shows.
17 So if you want to ask about that
18 process, you can go ahead and ask that
19 question.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Can you please answer that
22 question?
77
1 A It was an informal process. It was
2 no authority or decisionmaking, as your
3 question implied. It was an informal
4 consensus that I would seek from various
5 people whose opinions I respected: Press
6 office people, counsel's office people, and
7 political people.
8 Q In the ordinary course of seeking
9 that informal approval, who did you consult
10 with?
11 A Again, I wouldn't necessarily use
12 the word "approval." It was sort of a
13 consensus that we would all come to, and I
14 would consult with primarily in the press
15 office, Michael McCurry and Stuart Schear
16 (phonetic), primarily in the counsel's
17 office.
18 Q Who was Stuart Schear?
19 A Stuart Schear was responsible for
20 receiving the phone calls from television
21 producers, inviting me to appear. He was in
22 the category of a booker, if you were looking
78
1 at the outside world.
2 In the counsel's office, I would
3 primarily consult with Lanny Breuer. In the
4 political arena, I guess I would primarily --
5 I guess I didn't really talk to people in the
6 political field. Once in awhile Doug Sosmic
7 (phonetic) or Rahm Emanuel, but mostly it
8 would be Lanny Breuer or Mike McCurry.
9 Q In Exhibit 1, which I read to you,
10 it says, "Mr. Davis has appeared as a private
11 citizen on a number of television and radio
12 programs to address questions relating to the
13 issues he will work on in the counsel's
14 office."
15 During the time you were with the
16 White House, did you ever make appearances in
17 your private capacity?
18 A Could I just pause for a second?
19 Where did you read that sentence?
20 Q Second paragraph.
21 A Okay.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Assert an objection
79
1 to the form of the question.
2 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the
3 question?
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q During the time that you were at
6 the White House, did you ever appear on TV
7 and radio programs in your private capacity?
8 A No, I did not.
9 Q In this regard, this statement:
10 "Mr. Davis has appeared as a private citizen
11 on a number of television and radio programs
12 to address questions relating to the issues
13 he will work on in the counsel's office," is
14 the White House press secretary referring to
15 the fact that you made private appearances
16 before you joined the White House on issues
17 relating to Whitewater and the Travelgate
18 investigations?
19 A I don't know what he is referring
20 to at all.
21 Q How did he get the information to
22 be able to make that statement, Mr. McCurry?
80
1 A Mr. Davis. How did Mr. McCurry --
2 Q Mr. McCurry made the statement, but
3 where did he get that information, to the
4 best of your knowledge?
5 A I can only tell you what I told the
6 press office prior to my going to the White
7 House about my past activities. That is the
8 only thing I can tell you. I don't know
9 where he got information from, but I can only
10 tell you what I told him.
11 Q Does the White House press
12 secretary keep a collection of various
13 appearances by Clinton friends and allies on
14 radio and television?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
16 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Do they keep the videos, for
19 instance, of appearances of Clinton allies
20 and friends, based on your knowledge?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, form.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
81
1 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Have you ever asked?
4 A No.
5 Q You were served with a subpoena in
6 this case, correct?
7 A Yes, I was.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
9 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
10 Exhibit No. 2.
11 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 2
12 was marked for identification.)
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Showing you Exhibit No. 2,
15 Mr. Davis, is this a copy of the subpoena
16 which you received from Judicial Watch?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection. The witness
18 has to have an opportunity to review it.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure, take your time.
20 MR. MILLS: Counsel for the witness
21 will have to have an opportunity to compare
22 it with what was received.
82
1 THE WITNESS: While counsel is
2 reviewing it, I can't say with certainty that
3 there isn't a page missing or words that
4 might have been changed. But this looks to
5 me as the same document that we received,
6 without knowing for certain that it is the
7 exact same document.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: For purposes of
9 allowing yourself and Mr. Mills an
10 opportunity to review documents, let me mark
11 as Exhibit 3 a notice of deposition duces
12 tecum which was served upon you subsequent to
13 the subpoena, which narrows the scope of
14 certain document requests.
15 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 3
16 was marked for identification.)
17 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, with
18 respect to Exhibit No. 2 and Exhibit 3, so
19 that this can be moved along, we will reserve
20 our right to object to the authenticity of
21 this, and both exhibits, subject to
22 comparison. But I don't think it is fruitful
83
1 to sit here and compare word for word, line
2 by line, at this particular point in order to
3 satisfy ourselves as to authenticity.
4 So we will reserve that objection.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I appreciate that.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q So you did receive the notice of
8 deposition which is Exhibit No. 3 in addition
9 to the subpoena?
10 A Subject to the objection, yes.
11 Q Have you produced any documents
12 here today in response to the subpoena and
13 narrowed notice of deposition?
14 A I have not.
15 Q Did you search for documents in
16 response to the subpoena and notice of
17 deposition duces tecum?
18 A Subject to the advice of counsel as
19 to what I was supposed to search for in the
20 area of responsiveness, I did do a very
21 diligent search, yes.
22 Q At the time that you left the White
84
1 House in January of this year, did you take
2 documents with you?
3 A I took -- by documents, I would --
4 the answer is yes. But the definition of
5 documents --
6 Q Tell me everything that you took.
7 A I made copies of various press
8 clippings and documents that were the subject
9 of published reports. I made copies of those
10 and took them with me, yes.
11 Q Did any of those documents refer or
12 relate in any way to Filegate or government
13 files?
14 A No, they did not.
15 Q Did you seek clearance of the
16 documents which you took from the White
17 House?
18 A No, I did not.
19 Q At the time that you took the
20 documents, were you aware of any procedure to
21 clear documents which are removed from the
22 White House?
85
1 A I made copies of documents. The
2 originals were left behind me. I made the
3 judgment that there was no objection to my
4 copying items that one could get out of
5 NEXIS, which is published newspaper reports,
6 and I had no concern about making copies of
7 documents that were the subjects of published
8 reports. Those were the two categories of
9 copies that I made.
10 Q At the time that you left the White
11 House, were you aware of any clearance
12 procedures with regard to documents taken
13 from the premises?
14 A I was not aware of any clearance
15 procedures regarding copies of documents. I
16 was aware of clearance procedures regarding
17 secured documents, classified documents, that
18 sort of thing.
19 Q During the time that you were at
20 the White House, did you have a security
21 clearance?
22 A Yes.
86
1 Q What type of security clearance did
2 you have?
3 A Secret. I don't think I know the
4 answer to that. I don't think I know the
5 answer to that. It was definitely a
6 clearance, but I forget the level.
7 Q During the time you were at the
8 White House, did you ever see classified
9 material?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you ever see classified
12 material with regard to the Filegate issue?
13 A No, I did not.
14 Q I am going to use the word
15 "Filegate issue" and include government
16 files.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
18 definition as vague.
19 MR. MILLS: Objection.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You understand what I mean?
22 A Why don't you say "Filegate and
87
1 government files"?
2 Q I am talking about the procuring of
3 FBI files by the White House, and any other
4 government files that contain information
5 that has been released about individuals such
6 as Linda Tripp, Kathleen Willey, and others.
7 That is the nature of my definition.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: I am going to
9 reassert the vagueness objection, because I
10 think that is not a workable definition.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Do you understand what I said? She
13 can have her objection.
14 A I understand what you said, but if
15 you use the expression "other government
16 files," I am going to have a hard time
17 figuring what you are talking about. But
18 let's go forward.
19 MR. MILLS: Let the record reflect
20 that we have made objections to your use of
21 that particular description as vague and
22 ambiguous. We made those objections on the
88
1 record.
2 There are four objections: A
3 preliminary objection and three supplemental
4 objections to the documents request. And we
5 restate here and reincorporate here those
6 objections.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q During the time you were at the
9 White House, did you ever see classified FBI
10 material of any kind?
11 A No, I did not.
12 Q Did you ever see classified
13 Pentagon material at any time?
14 A I don't believe so.
15 Q Did you ever have access to the
16 personnel files of any White House employees
17 during the time that you worked there?
18 A I did not.
19 Q Did you ever have access to the
20 security files of any employees of the
21 Pentagon at the time that you worked there?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection. Vague,
89
1 ambiguous in terms of security files.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
3 THE WITNESS: I did not.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q During the time that you worked at
6 the White House, did Howard Ickes also work
7 at the White House for part of that period of
8 time?
9 A Very briefly.
10 Q Do you know whether Mr. Ickes left
11 the White House with documentation?
12 A Tell me what you mean by
13 "documentation"?
14 Q Pieces of paper, computer
15 diskettes, recordations on dictaphones,
16 anything to that effect?
17 A Pieces of paper, yes. The others I
18 am not aware of.
19 Q How did you become aware of that?
20 A The copies of documents that he
21 made and took with him when he left the White
22 House were requested by a Congressional
90
1 committee, and were sent to the Congressional
2 committee pursuant to a subpoena. I believe
3 it was in December or January of 1996, '97; I
4 don't remember when.
5 As a result of that subpoena and
6 that production, Mr. Ickes chose to release
7 to the press all of those documents, and sent
8 us copies at the White House of all of the
9 documents that he was going to release to the
10 press.
11 It was my responsibility to respond
12 to press inquiries about those documents.
13 Q Was there anything in those
14 documents that referred or related in any way
15 to the Filegate controversy?
16 A I don't recall that there were any.
17 I don't think so, but I don't recall.
18 Q Do you know whether Mr. Ickes ever
19 took documents that referred or related in
20 any way to the Filegate controversy?
21 A Not that I am aware of.
22 Q Did you have an opportunity to
91
1 review the documents with Mr. Ickes before he
2 left the White House?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q So all you know is that you
5 received the documents which he gave to the
6 Congressional committee?
7 A Copies of the documents, that's
8 right.
9 Q You don't know whether or not he
10 produced all of the requested documents to
11 the Congressional committees?
12 A I do not.
13 Q You don't know whether or not he
14 withheld documents on the Congressional
15 committees?
16 A I do not.
17 Q Do you know where Mr. Ickes stored
18 the documents that he took from the White
19 House?
20 A I do not.
21 Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Ickes
22 his removal of documents from the White
92
1 House?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q When did you discuss that with him?
4 A Shortly after I was aware of the
5 need to respond to press inquiries about the
6 documents that he was about to release, I
7 asked him about the circumstances of his
8 taking the documents with him, because I knew
9 I would be asked about that by members of the
10 press corps.
11 Q Who contacted who, you or
12 Mr. Ickes?
13 A We literally, physically bumped
14 into each other on a street corner.
15 Q What street corner was it?
16 A I remember it well. It was 17th
17 and Pennsylvania Avenue.
18 Q I thought you were going to say "a
19 street corner named desire."
20 A I bumped into him as I was leaving
21 late night, right before the release of the
22 documents to the press. We had a very brief
93
1 conversation. That is when I asked him about
2 the circumstances of his taking those
3 documents with him.
4 Q What did he tell you?
5 A He told me that making copies of
6 documents that were essentially political
7 documents and not classified did not present
8 a problem as far as he was aware of any rules
9 or regulations, that I could say that to the
10 press. I did so repeat that to the press
11 many times.
12 Q You were concerned that he had
13 taken government documents?
14 A I wasn't concerned. I was simply
15 anticipating the inquiry, was Mr. Ickes
16 permitted to take the documents, copies of
17 the documents that he did? He gave me his
18 answer, and I repeated that answer.
19 Q Was that one of the areas that you
20 were authorized to discuss with the press,
21 the removal of the Ickes documents?
22 A Yes.
94
1 Q What context were you authorized to
2 discuss that with the press?
3 A In the overall context of the
4 campaign finance story, which was the context
5 for that release, the fundraising and
6 political activities in the White House would
7 be the way I would define overall the
8 campaign finance story. Those documents, to
9 the extent they reflected on those issues,
10 were in my areas of responsibility.
11 Q Did Mr. Ickes tell you where he
12 stored those documents in this conversation
13 or any other later conversation?
14 A No, he did not.
15 Q Are you aware that he stored the
16 documents that he stored the documents in a
17 Georgetown house, Fire Island, and another
18 New York location?
19 A No, I wasn't.
20 Q Are you aware that he claims to
21 have given a lot of those documents to
22 Mr. Bob Bennett?
95
1 A I knew that he gave a lot of those
2 documents to his attorney, Bob Bennett.
3 Q Was anyone at the White House
4 concerned that Mr. Ickes had removed
5 documents without getting approval?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Who?
10 A I guess -- I can't remember whether
11 Mr. Breuer was in the White House at the time
12 of the first Ickes documents disclosure. But
13 we were concerned about how to answer the
14 question on whether it was okay to make those
15 copies and take them out of the White House.
16 The press was asking questions after the
17 release of those documents.
18 We answered the question along the
19 lines that Mr. Ickes told us.
20 Q So you told the press that it was
21 permissible for Mr. Ickes to remove those
22 documents?
96
1 A Yes. I told them it was
2 permissible for Mr. Ickes to make copies and
3 remove those documents, yes.
4 Q Had you reviewed the documents
5 themselves before you made the statement to
6 the press?
7 A Not all of them, but most of them.
8 Q Are you aware Mr. Ickes produced in
9 this lawsuit documents related to Filegate
10 that he removed from the White House?
11 A I was not aware of that, no.
12 Q Was the President concerned that
13 Mr. Ickes removed the documents from the
14 White House?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: I want to caution the
16 witness not to reveal the substance of
17 conversations.
18 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you ever discuss it with him?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q After that time that you saw
97
1 Mr. Ickes on the street corner, have you ever
2 spoken with him?
3 A With Mr. Ickes?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Many, many times.
6 Q Why do you speak frequently with
7 Mr. Ickes?
8 A He is a friend of 30 years.
9 Q Good friend?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Ickes
12 about his appearance in this case, Alexander
13 v. FBI?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague. Can
15 you define "appearance"?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q He was deposed in this lawsuit.
18 A No, I haven't.
19 Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Ickes
20 about anything he knows about Filegate?
21 A No, I haven't.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
98
1 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Ickes
4 about Linda Tripp?
5 A I don't believe so.
6 Q You are not sure?
7 A I am not sure, but I don't believe
8 so.
9 Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Ickes
10 about Kathleen Willey?
11 A I might have.
12 Q What did you speak with him about
13 Kathleen Willey?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
15 fact not in evidence. The response was he
16 may have.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: This is just
18 discovery. If you have recollection of any
19 sort, please provide it.
20 THE WITNESS: After the first
21 published reports in Newsweek magazine, I
22 believe I had a conversation with him about
99
1 the story.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q When was that?
4 A I think it was probably the summer
5 of 1997.
6 Q As was that conversation in person
7 or by phone or otherwise?
8 A I can't remember.
9 Q What was discussed?
10 A What do you think of the story? I
11 think I asked him what did you think of the
12 story in Newsweek? I think he said "I can't
13 figure it out," or, you know, "I don't know
14 what the docs are," or something to that
15 effect.
16 That's all.
17 Q Have you ever discussed with anyone
18 the release of Kathleen Willey's letters by
19 the White House?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Who did you discuss it with?
22 A Mr. Breuer, for the most part.
100
1 Q Anyone else?
2 A I can't really remember.
3 Q What did you discuss with
4 Mr. Breuer?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
7 MR. MILLS: A moment to consult
8 with the witness.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you give us a
10 time frame for that question?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: When the conversation
12 occurred. I asked Mr. Davis for that time
13 frame.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: I didn't hear it.
15 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
16 Q When did you have this discussion
17 with Mr. Breuer?
18 A Right after the letters were
19 released. I called Mr. Breuer to say, can
20 you send me a copy of the letters that were
21 released to the press?
22 Q Did he send you those copies?
101
1 A Yes, he did.
2 Q How did he send them to you?
3 A I believe his assistant faxed them
4 to me.
5 Q Who was his assistant?
6 A Brian Smith.
7 Q Were they received in your office
8 at Patton Boggs?
9 A I can't remember whether they were
10 received at my office or at my home fax. It
11 could have been either one.
12 Q Do you still have a copy of those
13 letters?
14 A I don't think so. I read them -- I
15 used them as a basis for some television
16 appearances, and then I closed -- as the
17 issue fades, I throw them out and wait for
18 the next batch.
19 Q These letters were faxed after you
20 already left the White House?
21 A Yes, this is just recently.
22 Q You are no longer an employee of
102
1 the White House?
2 A Correct.
3 Q You are no longer an employee of
4 the federal government?
5 A Correct.
6 Q At the time that these letters were
7 sent to you, did you ask anyone where the
8 letters were stored at the White House?
9 A No, I did not.
10 Q During the course of your legal
11 practice, which dates back to -- when did you
12 graduate from law school again?
13 A 1970, but I began in '72.
14 Q '72, you did become familiar with
15 the Privacy Act, did you not?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection. No
17 foundation.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A No.
21 Q Do you know what the Privacy Act
22 is?
103
1 A I know of it. I don't know too
2 much about it.
3 Q How did you learn about the Privacy
4 Act?
5 A I can't really remember. Read
6 about it in the newspapers, probably.
7 Q When you worked at the White House,
8 was that the first time you ever worked for
9 the federal government?
10 A Yes, with the exception of an
11 internship in the Senate in my second year in
12 law school.
13 Q At the White House, was there any
14 documentation or training that a new employee
15 got concerning the Privacy Act that you know
16 of?
17 A I don't believe so. We took an
18 ethics course that we all had to attend, and
19 I don't remember the Privacy Act issue being
20 discussed at the ethic course. It might have
21 been.
22 Q Who taught the ethics course?
104
1 A Who taught the ethics course? It
2 was taught by two White House counsels. I
3 believe her name was Kathy. I forget her
4 last name.
5 Q Kathy was both White House counsel?
6 A No, this is another Kathy.
7 Q There were two White House counsels
8 named Kathy?
9 A There were at one point two people
10 in the White House office called Kathy.
11 Q Both teaching ethics courses?
12 A No.
13 Q Who was the other one teaching
14 ethic courses?
15 A I forget. There -- it would be
16 done through a panel on the stage. There
17 would be a little skit that would be
18 performed with people performing different
19 roles on different hypothetical scenario.
20 Q When did you take the ethics course
21 upon your beginning at the White House?
22 A Yes.
105
1 Q They did teach aspects of the
2 Privacy Act?
3 A They could have.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you ever receive any written
7 materials during your time at the White
8 House, giving you advice on the Privacy Act?
9 A I don't believe so, but I don't
10 remember.
11 Q Why did you request the White House
12 to send you the Kathleen Willey letters?
13 A I was about to be on a television
14 program, and that was in the news, and I
15 wanted to be prepared.
16 Q What television program was that?
17 A I think it was Geraldo.
18 Q Now, at the time that you left the
19 White House, was there any understanding that
20 you would do press appearances discussing
21 issues involving the Clinton controversies?
22 A What do you mean by
106
1 "understanding"?
2 Q Understanding with the White House?
3 A I told them that I would, but there
4 was no agreement for me to do so.
5 Q Was there an agreement that they
6 would provide materials to you that would
7 help you in your TV appearances after you
8 left the White House?
9 A No, there was not.
10 Q But they have provided materials to
11 you from time to time since you left the
12 White House?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you receive any compensation for
15 making appearances, discussing the Clinton
16 controversies, during the period you left the
17 White House?
18 A No, I do not.
19 Q I believe you recently made a
20 statement, did you not, to the media that you
21 had initially intended to only do White House
22 spin for about 90 days or so after you left
107
1 the White House?
2 A I never made that --
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
5 THE WITNESS: I never made that
6 statement.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q That was a false quote in the
9 newspaper?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection. No
11 foundation.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't think you
13 would find a quote from me that uses the word
14 "spin."
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q What word did you use?
17 A I think I said my original
18 expectation was that I would appear on
19 television shows to discuss these issues for
20 about three months after leaving the White
21 House. That was my expectation.
22 Q Did you discuss that with the White
108
1 House at the time that you left?
2 A No.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you discuss that with anyone at
7 the time that you left?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Who did you discuss it with?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
13 THE WITNESS: My wife.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Why did you set three months as a
16 period?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A I was tired, and I wanted to return
21 to my family and my law practice and my
22 private life.
109
1 Q At the time that you left the White
2 House, did you feel that you had a duty to
3 make these TV appearances to discuss the
4 Clinton controversies for at least a limited
5 period of time?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
7 THE WITNESS: I am not going to
8 accept the word "duty" as you used it. But I
9 will tell you the answer as I would describe
10 it.
11 I felt very strongly that this was
12 a very important presidency and a very
13 important administration, and I was also very
14 loyal and felt a deep feeling of friendship
15 to the President and Mrs. Clinton.
16 Based upon those feelings, I wanted
17 to continue to be of assistance to them,
18 especially in the new controversies that had
19 just arisen, despite my departure. So I felt
20 a strong desire to be of assistance to them
21 for at least a reasonable period of time,
22 even after leaving the White House.
110
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Did you express that strong desire
3 to anybody at the White House at the time you
4 left or before?
5 A Yes.
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Who?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: I join on the
10 relevancy objections.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: You can have a
12 running objection.
13 THE WITNESS: I would say virtually
14 everybody that I work with in the White
15 House, I expressed that to.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Did you express that feeling with
18 Mike McCurry?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did you express that feeling with
21 Lanny Breuer?
22 A Yes.
111
1 MR. MILLS: This entire line of
2 questioning is subject to continuing
3 objection of relevance. I wanted that on the
4 record.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: That is fine.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you express that feeling with
8 the President?
9 A Could we go back to the words "that
10 feeling," and what answer we are referring
11 to?
12 Q The strong sentiment that you
13 should do --
14 A That answer as to why, that whole
15 answer?
16 Q We will call it the feeling.
17 A Yes, I did say that to the
18 President.
19 Q Did you say that is to
20 Mrs. Clinton?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q Did you express that feeling to the
112
1 chief of staff, Erskine Bowles?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Anyone else in a high position in a
4 White House?
5 A Everyone in a high position in the
6 White House.
7 Q Sidney Blumenthal?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Paul Begala?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Ann Lewis?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Rahm Emanuel?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did they thank you for having that
16 feeling?
17 A Some did.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Some say you shouldn't have that
21 feeling.
22 A None of them said I shouldn't have
113
1 that feeling.
2 Q During the time that, I believe you
3 stated that you subsequently extended that
4 90-day period?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You said that to the press,
7 correct? You were quoted recently to that
8 effect?
9 A Yes, I have.
10 Q You are now on your 160th-some day,
11 correct?
12 A I have not counted.
13 Q Is there a reason that you extended
14 that period?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Why is that?
17 A I still have the very strong
18 feeling, and it is hard to say no, given that
19 strong feeling.
20 Q Now, after you left the White
21 House, have you made media appearances where
22 you discussed the FBI file controversy?
114
1 A Since I left the White House?
2 Q Yes.
3 A I can't say for sure that the
4 subject has never come up on any of the many
5 programs that I have done, including some
6 with you. But I don't think so. It is
7 possible, but I don't think so.
8 MR. MILLS: If counsel has specific
9 appearances he wishes to question about,
10 where he can cite specific discussions by
11 Mr. Davis of the FBI files matter, perhaps
12 that would be a fruitful means of proceeding.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: We will do that.
14 This is obviously my questioning, and I take
15 that suggestion. I take it under advisement.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Have you ever discussed, since you
18 have left the White House, the Travelgate
19 matter?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
21 BY THE WITNESS:
22 Q On any of these media appearances?
115
1 A I think I have made reference to
2 some of these so-called 'gates. I may have
3 even made a reference to the FBI or the
4 travel or the Vince Foster, or any of the
5 alleged scandals in the context of a comment
6 that I would make about the overall pattern
7 of allegations without proof, innuendo
8 without facts. I think I have used examples,
9 and I may have made reference to some of
10 those 'gates when I do that.
11 Q You have made appearances since you
12 left the White House discussing the Monica
13 Lewinsky controversy?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection. Relevance
15 and scope.
16 THE WITNESS: I have.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am just laying the
18 foundation.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You have made media appearances
21 since you left the White House where you
22 discussed Linda Tripp?
116
1 A Yes.
2 Q Kathleen Willey?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Since you have left the White
5 House, the White House has sent to you
6 materials about these controversies from time
7 to time, correct?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
9 THE WITNESS: Upon my request, yes.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q What materials have they sent to
12 you?
13 A Press clippings.
14 Q They have sent you press clippings
15 with regard to Filegate?
16 A I don't believe so.
17 Q They sent you press clippings with
18 regard to Travelgate?
19 A I don't believe so.
20 Q They sent you press clippings with
21 regard to Monica Lewinsky, that controversy?
22 A The whole controversy --
117
1 Q Which includes Tripp and Willey?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection. Form,
3 compound.
4 THE WITNESS: I have gotten lots of
5 press clippings relating to the Monica
6 Lewinsky set of allegations, associated with
7 those allegations, yes.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Do you also clip press clippings
10 yourself at Patton Boggs, or have somebody do
11 it for you?
12 A Not really. I will tear something
13 out of the newspaper that I might think I
14 will need for a particular program. I don't
15 keep too much in the filing system on this
16 particular matter, unless it is a current
17 issue that I am going to need to address in a
18 current show that I am about to be on.
19 MR. MILLS: Just for accuracy on
20 the record here, there has been no testimony
21 by Mr. Davis --
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't make a speaking
118
1 objection, please.
2 MR. MILLS: I am not making a
3 speaking objection. I am just making a
4 clarification. The clarification is
5 Mr. Davis, in his individual capacity, may do
6 something, but I don't think that there has
7 been any foundation laid that the law firm
8 does anything.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: That is a speaking
10 objection, so please don't do that again.
11 Certify it. That is the way to give the
12 witness testimony. That is what the Court
13 objects to.
14 THE WITNESS: What is your
15 question?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q My question is whether there is
18 anybody at Patton Boggs who assists you in
19 doing clippings?
20 A No.
21 Q Is there anyone at Patton Boggs
22 that would handle incoming faxes and then
119
1 give them to you from the White House?
2 A My secretary.
3 Q Who is that?
4 A Wendy Williams.
5 Q Has there been anyone else since
6 you left the White House that you have worked
7 with in that regard?
8 A What regard?
9 Q Giving you materials that were sent
10 to you by the White House by fax or mail?
11 A Sometimes a substitute for Wendy,
12 if she is home ill. I have I had one or two
13 substitutes.
14 Q Who were they?
15 A I don't remember their names. They
16 were floaters in my law firm that substitute
17 when a secretary is sick. It couldn't have
18 been more than a few times.
19 Q You could, given some time,
20 identify those people?
21 A It would be hard. I probably have
22 one today who is sitting at the desk because
120
1 Wendy is home sick.
2 Q What is her name?
3 A I don't really know.
4 Q What is her name, Wendy Homesick?
5 A Wendy is homesick.
6 Q I thought maybe that was her name.
7 A I am sorry.
8 Q Wendy Homesick?
9 A Sorry.
10 Q I didn't hear.
11 Are you looking at some message you
12 are being sent? Mr. Davis, do you want to go
13 off the record?
14 A Are you asking me what I am looking
15 at?
16 Q What are you looking at?
17 A I am waiting for a possible message
18 from my wife about my son, and that was not
19 such a message.
20 Q That is fine. Just let me know and
21 we will go off the record.
22 A That is the only reason I am
121
1 interrupting. I have a four-month-old at
2 home, and if I get a message, I want to know
3 about it.
4 Q Understood.
5 You did receive the Kathleen Willey
6 letters, correct, from the White House?
7 A I received copies of some of the
8 letters. I don't know if they were all of
9 the letters.
10 Q So you did receive more than just
11 press clips since you left?
12 A When I say "press clips," maybe we
13 should define what I mean.
14 Q Please.
15 A I am including in "press clips"
16 documents that were given to the press. So
17 public documents and public stories would be
18 what I would tend to keep for a particular
19 show.
20 Q What other documents were you given
21 by the White House?
22 A When I would receive faxes?
122
1 Q Right, that are given to press,
2 since you left. Please identify them all?
3 A Besides the Willey letters?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Besides newspaper clips, what other
6 documents did I get from the White House that
7 were given out to the press?
8 Statement by Mr. Ruff, statement by
9 Mr. Kendall, transcripts by Mr. McCurry in
10 his press briefings. These were, you know,
11 public statements handed out to the press
12 corps.
13 That is really the most I can
14 remember right now.
15 Q Do you have a file at Patton Boggs
16 or anywhere elsewhere you keep the documents
17 that were sent from the White House?
18 A Not really.
19 Q You do keep some of the documents,
20 do you not?
21 A I kind of throw them in a pile at
22 my office. When I am not going to use them
123
1 anymore, I throw them away.
2 Q But there may still be some there?
3 A There are some there, yes.
4 Q I will ask you not to throw any
5 away that you currently have, because we will
6 make a formal request for those documents to
7 the extent that they were not included in our
8 subpoena?
9 A Sure. I searched everything that I
10 had pursuant to your subpoena, including
11 stuff lying around my office. But if --
12 through my counsel, I would be happy to do
13 that if my counsel advises me.
14 Q I am just asking you to preserve
15 what you have that you have received from the
16 White House.
17 A You can deal with my counsel. I
18 have no objection to doing it.
19 Q I am just putting you on legal
20 notice, that is all.
21 A I have no objection to doing it.
22 MR. MILLS: For the record, with
124
1 respect to any such request, we reserve our
2 right to object on relevancy or any other
3 basis.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Did you ever receive any documents
6 from the White House, since you left, that
7 were not disseminated to the press?
8 A I can only think of one instance,
9 and I think it was disseminated to the press.
10 So I have to say the answer to that is no,
11 but I am not sure of that one instance.
12 Q What was the other instance?
13 A There was a legal analysis in the
14 form of talking points on the issue of
15 executive privilege that I believe was handed
16 out to the press people who asked for it. It
17 was in the form of cases and citations about
18 precedence on the issue of executive
19 privilege.
20 I called the counsel's office to
21 ask for legal background on the executive
22 privilege issue for a television show that I
125
1 was going to be appearing on. I believe they
2 faxed me the legal cases and precedents. I
3 can't say for sure that that was released
4 generally to the press. I know it was made
5 available to the press who asked for it.
6 Q What were the different offices of
7 White House that had faxed you, or sent to
8 you in any way, materials since you left the
9 White House?
10 A Counsel's office and the press
11 office.
12 Q Who in the counsel's office sent
13 you documents?
14 A A variety of people.
15 Q Who?
16 A Jim Kennedy, Brian Smith, Chess
17 Johnson.
18 Q What position is Chess Johnson?
19 A He is a deputy to Jim Kennedy. He
20 was previously my deputy.
21 Q Who else?
22 A Those were the primary ones.
126
1 Q Who were the secretaries or
2 assistants?
3 A We didn't have secretaries.
4 Q Who handled administrative chores?
5 A They did.
6 Q Who from the White House press
7 office sent you materials since you left?
8 A Laurie Anderson, mostly.
9 Q What is her position?
10 A She is an assistant to Mike
11 McCurry.
12 Q Anyone else?
13 A I am never quite sure who is
14 answering the phone. Sometimes there would
15 be people whose names I didn't know. I would
16 almost always call and say, "Can you fax me
17 over the transcript of the McCurry press
18 briefing today?" That was almost always why
19 I would call.
20 Some people would do it that I
21 didn't know, whose names I didn't know.
22 Q In terms of commentary that you
127
1 have made on TV, you are just one of the
2 people that go on and talk about these
3 matters, correct?
4 A It appears that way.
5 Q There is usually somebody that
6 talks about it from the perspective of the
7 Clinton administration and somebody talks
8 about it from another perspective when you
9 make those appearances?
10 A That is definitely the case.
11 Q Are there a group of people that
12 routinely are asked to make appearances on
13 behalf of the White House, Clinton
14 administration?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
16 THE WITNESS: Asked by whom?
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q By the White House or the
19 Democratic National Committee?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
128
1 Q Does the White House keep a list of
2 individuals who are available to make
3 appearances on its behalf?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q Does the Democratic National
6 Committee?
7 A I have no idea.
8 Q Is there any kind of procedure used
9 by the White House or Democratic National
10 Committee disseminated nationally of
11 individuals who would make appearances on
12 their behalf, or radio appearances?
13 A I am not aware of one.
14 Q Are you saying that the Democratic
15 National Committee does not have a list of
16 individuals who can go out and speak on
17 issues favorable to the Democratic National
18 Committee?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
20 THE WITNESS: I am just saying that
21 I am not aware of it. They may have it, but
22 I'm not aware of it.
129
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q From the time you were in the White
3 House and thereafter, are you aware of
4 materials ever having been sent to persons
5 other than yourself from the White House on
6 matters relating to the Clinton
7 controversies?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
10 THE WITNESS: Since my departure
11 from the White House?
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q During and after your departure.
14 Let's start during?
15 A Repeat the question. During?
16 Q During the time you worked for the
17 White House, were you aware of materials
18 being sent to persons outside of the White
19 House who from time to time would do media
20 appearances taking positions favorable to the
21 White House?
22 A Yes.
130
1 Q Who were they?
2 A Specific individuals?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Who received the materials?
5 Q Yes.
6 A Michael Zelden, Rich Goodstein,
7 Stan Gildenhorn. That is all I can
8 specifically remember. There may have been
9 others.
10 Q James Carville?
11 A I wasn't aware of that.
12 Q Who was aware of that?
13 A I don't know.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Peter Fenn?
18 A I am not aware of that.
19 Q His partner, Mr. King? I forget
20 his first name.
21 A I am not aware of that.
22 Q Jennifer Laslow?
131
1 A I am not aware of that.
2 Q Dick Camber?
3 A I am not aware of that.
4 Q Geraldo Rivera?
5 A I am not aware of that.
6 Q Any other television talk show host
7 where materials were sent to them by the
8 White House during the period that you were
9 there?
10 A Talk show hosts?
11 Q Or their shows?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
13 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by
14 "their shows"?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Let's take, for instance, Geraldo
17 Rivera. He has producers, bookers. He has a
18 whole entourage of people that work with him.
19 A It is possible I faxed material to
20 the producer of Geraldo, Mr. Petrick, when I
21 was at the White House.
22 Q What material did you fax him?
132
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
2 facts not in evidence. The testimony was it
3 is possible.
4 THE WITNESS: It is possible that I
5 faxed Mr. Petrick the day's releases or
6 statements to the press, or other material
7 that I had released to the press.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Did you fax any other materials
10 other than press releases to any TV or radio
11 shows during the period you were there?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What did you fax, and to whom?
14 A Statements that I would release to
15 the press, documents that we had released to
16 the press of any of a number of things.
17 We didn't do press releases. At
18 least I didn't do press releases.
19 Q What documents specifically were
20 faxed by you to members of the media or their
21 staffs?
22 A Any member of the media?
133
1 Q Correct.
2 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
3 THE WITNESS: All of the time I was
4 at the White House?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
7 THE WITNESS: That is a broad
8 question. You want me to start with
9 categories?
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Just start with categories.
12 A The categories of information that
13 we would fax to the press or release to the
14 press?
15 Q Deliver in any manner, shape or
16 form: Fax, letters, hand delivery?
17 A The categories of information would
18 be the statement that I would make on behalf
19 of the White House that was sometimes, not
20 always, a written sentence or two, paragraph;
21 backup documents that we had released to the
22 press pertaining to the statement; newspapers
134
1 clips, clippings, published newspaper reports
2 that we would usually get from NEXIS or from
3 the newspaper pertaining to the issue that we
4 were addressing.
5 I think that is about the
6 categories of what we would make available to
7 the press.
8 Q This all came out of your office at
9 the White House, White House counsel's
10 office?
11 A You asked me what I did, and what I
12 did came out of my office.
13 Q You are aware of others delivering
14 materials to persons outside of the White
15 House concerning the controversies; correct?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know who you
18 mean by "others" and I don't know what you
19 mean by "materials."
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Other people in White House
22 counsel's office also sent materials to
135
1 persons outside of the White House concerning
2 Clinton controversies?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What other persons?
5 A That I am personally aware of?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Certainly Chess Johnson and
8 certainly Adam Goldberg, my two deputies;
9 probably Brian Smith, Lanny Breuer's deputy.
10 That is about all that I am aware of.
11 Q Tell us all of the media that these
12 materials were sent to, that you can
13 recollect?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
16 relevance.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Media or others?
19 A I will give you categories. I
20 don't think you want to spend the time going
21 through the individuals.
22 Q I may.
136
1 A Television broadcast news
2 organizations, radio broadcast news
3 organizations, print and newspapers news
4 organizations, and I think those would be the
5 three categories.
6 Q Did you just name all of the people
7 in the White House counsel's office that, to
8 the best of your recollection, were
9 responsible for sending materials to persons
10 outside of the White House concerning the
11 Clinton controversies?
12 A Could you repeat what you just
13 asked me?
14 Q Did you just name in the White
15 House counsel's office all of the persons who
16 participated in sending terms to persons
17 outside of the White House involving the
18 Clinton controversies?
19 A My previous answer was about the
20 news organizations. Are you asking about the
21 answer before?
22 Q Yes.
137
1 A When I mentioned the names of
2 people?
3 Q Yes.
4 A I was only telling you who I was
5 aware of who were part of my operation in
6 making available to news organizations
7 information that they requested or which we
8 wished to make available to them.
9 I don't know about others, because
10 I am only -- I was only aware of those.
11 Q You are aware that others in the
12 White House, outside of the White House
13 counsel's office, also disseminated materials
14 to persons and entities outside of the White
15 House?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A I am aware, because I read that in
20 the newspapers. I was not personally aware
21 of that while I was at the White House.
22 Q You did have contact from time to
138
1 time with Mr. Blumenthal while you worked at
2 the White House, correct?
3 A I certainly did.
4 Q What was Mr. Blumenthal's position
5 when you worked at the White House?
6 A I don't know his title.
7 Q What were his duties and
8 responsibilities, to the best of your
9 knowledge?
10 A I believe he acted as an advisor to
11 the President.
12 Q As part of his duties and
13 responsibilities, it was to interact with
14 media, correct?
15 A I am not sure that is -- I believe
16 he did that. I am not sure that those were
17 his duties and responsibilities.
18 Q You are aware that Paul Begala also
19 interacted with media during the period you
20 were with the White House?
21 A I was aware of that while I was
22 with the White House.
139
1 Q You are aware Ann Lewis interacted
2 with media?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Rahm Emanuel?
5 A Absolutely.
6 Q Others?
7 A I don't know what you mean by
8 others. I assume Mike McCurry interacted
9 with the press.
10 Q You are aware these individuals,
11 Blumenthal, Begala, Lewis, Emanuel, from time
12 to time disseminated materials from the White
13 House to persons or entities outside of the
14 White House?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: I already answered
18 that question already. But while I was at
19 the White House, I was not specifically aware
20 of their doing so. It would not surprise me
21 that they had done so.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
140
1 Q Since you left the White House,
2 have there been any of the persons that I
3 just mentioned, Blumenthal, Begala, Lewis,
4 Emanuel, who have sent you materials?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevancy,
6 form, compound.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Has there been anyone at the White
10 House, other than the persons that I named
11 and who you previously named, that sent you
12 materials since you left?
13 A I forget who I previously named.
14 Q If you duplicate, we won't penalize
15 you.
16 A My specific memory is that Chess
17 Johnson, Brian Smith, and Adam Goldberg have
18 sent me materials that I have requested that
19 were publicly disclosed materials. That was
20 the specific criteria that I would use on the
21 requesting materials, only published or
22 public materials or newspaper articles from
141
1 NEXIS that were already published. Those
2 would be the three people.
3 Did I say Brian Smith?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Jim Kennedy was the other one that
6 I specifically remember. Besides that, Aurie
7 (phonetic) Anderson from the press office or
8 whoever answered the phone when I wanted a
9 transcript of the McCurry briefing.
10 Q How do you define "public
11 materials"?
12 A Something that was released to the
13 press or made available to the press.
14 Q So if a document was classified,
15 even if it was released illegally it would
16 then become public material?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, hypothetical
18 question.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Is that your definition?
142
1 A It is not my definition. I don't
2 know.
3 Q If a document was taken from a
4 personnel file, as long as it was released to
5 the public it was then a public document?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, hypothetical
7 question, lack of foundation.
8 THE WITNESS: Ask the question
9 again.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q If a document was taken from the
12 personnel file of a White House employee or
13 past employee, if it had subsequently been
14 made public, it would then qualify as a
15 public document?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Under your definition?
19 A My definition of a public document
20 is something released to the public, made
21 available to the news media. That is as far
22 as I would go.
143
1 Q Regardless of whether it was legal
2 to do so?
3 A I certainly --
4 MR. MILLS: Consult with me,
5 please.
6 (Witness conferred with counsel)
7 THE WITNESS: As I said earlier, I
8 don't share your definition of what is legal
9 or illegal. If I knew something was illegal
10 and it was illegally shared with the press, I
11 would still call that a public document, but
12 I might come to a conclusion about its
13 legality or illegality.
14 But I am not aware of any documents
15 that I ever received that were illegally
16 released to the press.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you ever done any kind of
19 legal analysis, or has anyone else to the
20 best of your knowledge, as to whether the
21 release of the Kathleen Willey letters was
22 illegal?
144
1 MR. MILLS: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: I have never done any
3 legal analysis on that, no.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Do you know of anyone else who has?
6 A I do not.
7 Q Have you ever received information
8 from the White House or any other source in
9 the Clinton administration concerning Linda
10 Tripp?
11 A Would you repeat the question?
12 Q Have you received information from
13 the White House since you left, or any other
14 source in the Clinton administration,
15 concerning Linda Tripp?
16 A Since I left the White House? I
17 might have.
18 Q Who did you receive it from?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
20 THE WITNESS: I might have received
21 some press clippings concerning the Newsweek
22 story on Linda Tripp and Kathleen Willey from
145
1 someone in the White House.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Do you know who?
4 A I can't be sure.
5 Q Who did you receive it from?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
7 THE WITNESS: You just asked me
8 that.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Do you have any idea as to who you
11 may have received it from?
12 A I could guess among the four that I
13 mentioned to you, it would be one of those
14 four.
15 Q Have you ever received information
16 from any agency of the Clinton administration
17 other than the White House concerning Linda
18 Tripp?
19 A No.
20 Q Same question with regard to
21 Kathleen Willey?
22 A No.
146
1 Q Have you received information from
2 any source in the Clinton administration,
3 other than the White House with regard to any
4 other matters, since you left the White
5 House?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
8 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question,
9 please?
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Have you received information from
12 any other agency other than the White House,
13 in the Clinton administration since you left
14 the White House employment?
15 A On any subject?
16 Q On any subject.
17 MR. MILLS: Objection to the extent
18 that it invades into Mr. Davis's private
19 legal practice.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not interested
21 in his representation of actual legal
22 clients.
147
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q In the context of making efforts on
3 behalf of the Clinton administration or any
4 other venue?
5 A The answer is no.
6 Q When you referred to the press
7 clippings, does that include documents
8 released to the media concerning Linda Tripp?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
10 vague.
11 MR. MILLS: Okay, ambiguous.
12 THE WITNESS: What is the question
13 again?
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q When you referred to the release of
16 press clippings, it referred in part to Linda
17 Tripp?
18 A What release of press clippings?
19 Q When the White House sent you
20 materials after you left?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
22 answered.
148
1 THE WITNESS: The only thing I
2 specifically remember receiving about Linda
3 Tripp, but it could have been other press
4 clippings, I'm not sure, was a request for
5 the Newsweek story, I believe in July or
6 August of 1997 that first referenced what
7 Linda Tripp said about Kathleen Willey. I
8 don't think I asked for anything else, but I
9 can't be sure.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You said when you were with the
12 White House, you sent things to Michael
13 Zelden, you or people on your behalf?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What specifically was sent to
16 Michael Zelden?
17 A I think I said this before, but I
18 will be happy to say it again: Whatever we
19 had put out as a public statement or
20 documents released to the press, on the topic
21 of the day or topic of the week, that might
22 be the basis of a program that Michael was
149
1 appearing on, he would call and say what have
2 you guys said today or put out today? The
3 very same question I ask currently. I would
4 fax him the public statement that we just
5 handed out to press.
6 Q Did you ever send him what you
7 defined as public documents?
8 A Could we go off the record?
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
10 video record at 12:24.
11 (Discussion off the record)
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
13 record at 12:26.
14 THE WITNESS: You were asking me
15 something about Mr. Zelden, and I forgot.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Was there anything sent to him
18 which was a public document, which was not
19 just a standard press statement for the day?
20 A In the categories that I previously
21 mentioned to you, it is possible, yes.
22 Q Was it the policy of the White
150
1 House counsel's office, when you worked
2 there, to send documents to anybody who
3 requested them?
4 A Yes.
5 Q These kind of documents?
6 A It was my policy. I can't speak
7 for others.
8 Q If somebody like Larry Klayman or
9 Ken Starr called you, you would have readily
10 sent us the same documents that you sent to
11 Mike Zelden?
12 A I think I may have sent you
13 something I am not sure. I did not
14 discriminate on basis of political views or
15 ideology or anything. Sometimes I would not
16 bother if I thought the person was somewhat
17 unbalanced, and that would be my only
18 criteria.
19 Q You don't include me in that
20 category?
21 A I do not.
22 Q You don't agree that I am a
151
1 lunatic?
2 A I do not.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I was called that
5 last night on Geraldo by the White House. I
6 was just curious.
7 MR. MILLS: Nevertheless, the
8 objection stands.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Now, what documents were sent to
11 Stan Gildenhorn?
12 A Same type of documents. He did
13 appearances -- does appearances on the same
14 subjects that I now do. He is a very close
15 personal friend of mine. I solicited his
16 help in making these appearances. I imagine
17 he was getting the same kind of material that
18 I get.
19 Q Rich Goodstein?
20 A Same answer.
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video record
22 at 12:27.
152
1 (Discussion off the record)
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
3 record at 12:29.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q With regard to all of the persons
6 that you mentioned, whether it was Zelden,
7 Goodstein, Gildenhorn, Vic Camber, members of
8 the media, members of TV shows, can you
9 remember anything specific that you sent to
10 one of them that was not sent to the others?
11 A I can't. I did mention -- I did
12 not mention Vic Camber. I don't remember
13 ever accepted go information to Vic Camber.
14 But no, I think it was a general, whatever
15 they asked for, I sent.
16 Q After you left the White House,
17 have you ever sent materials to anyone or any
18 person or entity that does commentary
19 favorable to the Clinton administration?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You can respond.
153
1 A Since I left the White House?
2 Q Yes.
3 A I may have.
4 Q Who?
5 A I think I may have sent -- I
6 actually can't remember that I ever did.
7 Q Any feeling perhaps you sent
8 materials to Mike Zelden?
9 A I don't remember. I don't think
10 so.
11 Q During the period you worked in the
12 White House?
13 A Excuse me, Stan Gildenhorn I think
14 I faxed some newspaper clips or something,
15 maybe.
16 Q During the period you worked at the
17 White House, did you keep the phone numbers
18 of these individuals, or did anyone else in
19 the White House counsel's office?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague,
21 compound.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
154
1 Q Zelden, Goodstein, Gildenhorn?
2 A I have phone numbers in my little
3 pocket computer for all of those people, yes.
4 Q Did others in the White House
5 counsel's office keep the numbers of those
6 individuals?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form,
8 relevancy.
9 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't know.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Does the White House press office
12 keep a list of persons who frequently give
13 commentary favorable to the Clinton
14 administration?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
16 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q During the period you were in the
19 White House, did you ever send materials to
20 the Democratic National Committee?
21 A I can't recall. I don't think so.
22 Q Did the Democratic national
155
1 Committee ever send materials to you during
2 the period you were in the White House?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What did they send to you?
5 A I would sometimes get copies of
6 their daily talking points during the
7 campaign finance hearings. They put out a --
8 some kind of a bulletin or newsletter type of
9 thing at the end of everyday during the
10 campaign finance hearings. I remember
11 getting those regularly. I think I was on
12 their fax list.
13 Q Do you know whether they have sent
14 materials to anyone else in the White House
15 while you were there, they meaning the DNC?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
17 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you for
18 sure. It wouldn't surprise me if they had.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q In and around the time that the
21 Kathleen Willey letters were released, are
22 you aware of anyone who had discussions in
156
1 the White House or outside of the White House
2 concerning release of those letters?
3 A Repeat the question, please?
4 Q During the period in and around the
5 time Kathleen Willey's letters were released
6 to the media, do you know if anyone either
7 inside the White House or outside of the
8 White House had discussed whether or not
9 those letters should be released?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
11 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of
12 the discussions on that topic, no.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Did you ever have discussions with
15 Carville about that?
16 A No.
17 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
18 A No.
19 Q Are you aware that the President
20 had a discussion with him about releasing
21 those letters?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
157
1 facts not in evidence.
2 THE WITNESS: I remember reading
3 that in the newspaper, I think. That was the
4 occasion, that whether they should respond to
5 her Sixty Minutes performance. I think I
6 read in the newspaper that Mr. Carville said
7 he talked to the President about that.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Have you or anyone else ever had
10 discussions about the release of information
11 contained in Linda Tripp's Pentagon file?
12 A Repeat the question.
13 Q Have you or anyone else ever had
14 discussions about the release of information
15 in Linda Tripp's Pentagon file?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
17 THE WITNESS: About published
18 reports about that, yes.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Who did you have discussions with
21 about that?
22 A Jim Kennedy, Lanny Breuer, that is
158
1 all, I think that is about all.
2 Q The discussions occurred after you
3 left the White House?
4 A As I just said, after the published
5 reports about the episode, which would have
6 been after I left the White House.
7 Q What was discussed with
8 Mr. Kennedy?
9 A Do we have any information about
10 whether the White House was aware of the
11 decision to release the information to Jane
12 Mayer, is one of the questions I asked
13 Kennedy.
14 Q He called you or you called him?
15 A I called him.
16 Q Did you have any meetings where
17 this was discussed?
18 A I was about to go on a television
19 program and I called him and said have you
20 released anything to the press in answer to
21 the question which I am going to be asked
22 tonight: Did the White House know or
159
1 influence the decision to release information
2 to Ms. Mayer? His answer was no.
3 Q Did he say anything else?
4 A What are you guys putting out on
5 this? I asked him. Have you put anything
6 out on this? He said that he was answering
7 press inquiries, that what the White House
8 had no knowledge of or involvement with the
9 decision to release that information, and
10 then that I could say that safely on a
11 television program because that is what the
12 press was being told.
13 Q Did you ask Mr. Kennedy how he came
14 to know that the White House had no
15 involvement in the release of Tripp's
16 information from the Pentagon?
17 A No.
18 Q You didn't want to know?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, no
20 foundation.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Form, objection to
22 form.
160
1 THE WITNESS: I think I would have
2 wanted to know, but I didn't think of asking.
3 I was in his position. I know how you sort
4 of get to find things out in the White House.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q How is that? How do you get to
7 find out things in the White House?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
10 THE WITNESS: I would go to
11 Mr. Breuer and ask him the question I was
12 being asked by the press. Mr. Breuer would
13 then get me the answer.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Did you frequently know how he
16 would get the answer?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How was that?
19 A He would assign one of his
20 attorneys on the investigation team to ask
21 the individuals who might have the
22 information that I would need to know to
161
1 answer a press inquiry.
2 Q Did you then find out who that
3 attorney, that was assigned, spoke with
4 before he would get the information?
5 A Not always.
6 Q Sometimes?
7 A Sometimes.
8 Q Did you ever ask for proof that
9 what you were being told was true?
10 A Yes.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You did?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What kind of proof?
16 A If I felt any uncertainty, or it
17 was very important to me because I thought
18 the story was a major story and was worth it,
19 I would ask to see the underlying documents
20 and sometimes I would talk to -- ask to speak
21 to the individuals involved.
22 Q In this instance with Ms. Tripp,
162
1 you didn't ask for any underlying documents
2 to prove the White House had no involvement?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous,
4 this instance.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q The discussion with Mr. Kennedy?
7 A No, I was no longer at the White
8 House. I didn't ask that question.
9 Q Your discussion with Lanny Breuer
10 about the release of the Tripp information
11 from the Pentagon, who called who?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
13 foundation, form.
14 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I
15 said I specifically remember talking to
16 Breuer. Did I say that?
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Yes, you did.
19 A I know I talked to Kennedy and I
20 think I asked Breuer the same question I
21 asked Kennedy.
22 Q What did Breuer tell you?
163
1 A The same answer.
2 Q So basically you just got a denial,
3 you didn't get any underlying facts?
4 A Correct.
5 Q You didn't ask for the underlying
6 facts?
7 A I did not.
8 Q Why did you call those two
9 individuals concerning this issue?
10 A I was trying to prepare for the
11 television program that I was supposed to be
12 on and I wanted to get the public facts that
13 the White House had released to the press on
14 the subject, or the statements that they were
15 making to the press on that subject, so that
16 I could be accurate.
17 Q We can take lunch break at this
18 time. Take an hour?
19 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
20 video record at 12:39.
21 (Whereupon, at 12:39 p.m., a
22 luncheon recess was taken.)
164
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (1:45 p.m.)
3 Whereupon,
4 LANNY J. DAVIS
5 was recalled as a witness and, having been
6 previously duly sworn, was examined and
7 testified further as follows:
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
9 record at 1:45 p.m.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Mr. Davis, you are still under oath
12 here?
13 A Yes.
14 Q During the period that you worked
15 in the White House, tell me what contact, if
16 any, you had with James Carville?
17 A I think you asked me that once
18 before, and I believe I answered. I will
19 answer now again, I think I talked to him
20 once or twice on the telephone.
21 Q What did you talk to him about?
22 A I think I previously said, and I
165
1 will answer again, that I talked to him about
2 the current issue involving campaign finance,
3 that was the issue of the week or day. I
4 forget what the issue was.
5 Q Did you send him any documents?
6 A I can't remember, but I am pretty
7 sure I didn't.
8 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
9 A I am not aware of anyone who did.
10 Q During the period that you were at
11 the White House, did you ever have an
12 opportunity to speak with George
13 Stephanopoulos?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Was he still working at the White
16 House during some of the time that you were
17 there?
18 A A small portion of the time.
19 Q Let's talk about that time first.
20 What did you talk to him about during that
21 period?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Object. I think you
166
1 can try to establish the general subject
2 matter of the conversation, but otherwise we
3 are going to instruct him not to testify as
4 to substance.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q All of your conversations in the
7 White House are not covered by
8 attorney-client privilege, are they, when you
9 are there?
10 A I will have to rely on attorney
11 advice.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Is it your position that if you ask
15 for a hamburger in the White House mess, that
16 that is covered by attorney-client privilege?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Calls for
18 a legal conclusion.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: He is a lawyer.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: He is not defending
21 the deposition. I will make the privilege
22 calls, not him.
167
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm very impressed,
2 but I am asking him the question.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, hypothetical
4 question. It calls for a legal conclusion.
5 I join in the government's objection.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Would you respond?
8 A Would you repeat the question?
9 Q Is it your position that anything
10 you ever said in the White House was covered
11 by an attorney-client privilege?
12 A No.
13 Q What types of communications, in
14 your opinion, were not covered by an
15 attorney-client privilege?
16 A Social conversations.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q How do you define the
20 attorney-client privilege, based on your
21 experience?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, calls for
168
1 legal conclusion.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
3 THE WITNESS: How do I personally
4 define it based on my experience, is that
5 your question?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Yes.
8 A When I am advising a client on
9 matters of law.
10 Q Did you ever have any conversations
11 with Mr. Stephanopoulos on matters other than
12 advising him on matters of law, while he was
13 at the White House?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What did you discuss?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: I still object. I
17 didn't assert attorney-client privilege
18 before. I objected to him testifying to the
19 substance of the conversation.
20 You could ask the general subject
21 matter so you could identify whether the
22 privilege is appropriate.
169
1 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't cut him off
2 on grounds of relevancy. We've been through
3 that with the court many times.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: I asserted privilege.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: What privilege are
6 you asserting?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Presidential
8 communication potentially. You need to
9 identify what the subjects are about.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: That's all I'm asking
11 him to do is identify the subject and we will
12 take it from there.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: That was not the
14 question on the table. Ask him that
15 question.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q What did you talk to him about?
18 That is the subject.
19 A What subject did I talk to him
20 about?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer the
22 general subject matter, not the specifics of
170
1 the conversation.
2 THE WITNESS: The general subject
3 that I talked to him about was campaign
4 finance issues.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you discuss with him the
7 release of information from the White House
8 about campaign finance issues?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer that
10 specific question, but nothing else with
11 respect to conversations.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: You know, you are
13 messing up my questions. The question is
14 pending. Obviously that is all he answers.
15 He is an experienced litigator. You have to
16 gum up the record with those type of
17 objections.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I am entitled to a
19 certain objection and I need to assert
20 privilege.
21 THE WITNESS: You need to repeat
22 the question.
171
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Read it back. This
2 is what happens when you make those kind of
3 nonsensical objections.
4 (The reporter read the record as
5 requested.)
6 THE WITNESS: I can't remember what
7 I specifically talked to him about. I can
8 remember the general subject area was I was
9 pretty new at the White House and I talked to
10 him about the overall campaign finance issue.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q At what period of time do you
13 remember George Stephanopoulos left the White
14 House?
15 A I was trying to remember when you
16 asked me earlier. I remember him being there
17 while I was there, I remember it was only a
18 short period of time. It certainly was in
19 December, maybe into January. I can't
20 remember.
21 Q Since he left the White House
22 during the period that you were at the White
172
1 House, did you have any discussions with
2 Mr. Stephanopoulos?
3 A Once in awhile.
4 Q About how many times?
5 A Half a dozen.
6 Q Did you ever meet with him during
7 that period?
8 A I think I passed him in the hallway
9 once in the White House and that was all. I
10 never had a formal meeting with him, or
11 informal meeting with him, other than that
12 occasion.
13 Q What were the general subject
14 matters of the conversations you had with
15 Mr. Stephanopoulos after he left the White
16 House?
17 A They were always about a specific
18 issue relating to campaign finance that had
19 been in the newspapers, that was current. I
20 think quite similar to what I would do when I
21 was ready to go on television, he would call
22 me up and say what has the White House put
173
1 out? What can you tell me that you have told
2 the press?
3 Q Of course he asked you to send to
4 him what the White House put out.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes fact
6 not in evidence, no foundation. Objection on
7 relevance, not relevant to the subject matter
8 of this litigation.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I will give you a
10 running objection to this. You can respond.
11 THE WITNESS: Did I send him
12 anything? I don't think I did. I am pretty
13 sure I did not.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q During the period you were in the
16 White House, did you send any information to
17 Salon magazine?
18 A No.
19 Q Or persons associated with Salon,
20 such as John Broder, Mary Wass, Joe Connison,
21 Jean Lyons?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, compound.
174
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You can respond.
3 MR. MILLS: Relevancy.
4 THE WITNESS: You say associated
5 with Salon magazine?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Persons that write for Salon?
8 A Mr. Connison I sent some material
9 to, but I didn't know he was associated with
10 Salon magazine at the time.
11 Q You thought he was associated with
12 the New York Observer at the time?
13 A Correct, I faxed material to the
14 New York Observer.
15 Q What did you send to Mr. Connison?
16 A I was expecting that. I am trying
17 to remember. It was pretty shortly before I
18 left. Let me think for a second. It is on
19 the tip of my tongue.
20 I may remember it if you jog my
21 memory, but I can't remember. It was some
22 piece he was working on and he asked me to
175
1 send him some of the statements I had made or
2 some of the press comments we had offered up
3 on the subject. But I really forget the
4 subject.
5 Q Did he ask you to send any
6 documents, other than press statements?
7 A No. Usually I would get: What
8 have you guys been saying about? He called
9 me about that. I remember faxing him some
10 material, but I don't remember what it was
11 about.
12 Q Do you remember the subject matter
13 of his piece, what it was about?
14 A It might hit me. It is real close,
15 but I am just not there.
16 Q Did it relate to campaign finance?
17 A I think so. It may have related to
18 the independent counsel issue, whether
19 independent counsel should be appointed or
20 not. I am guessing.
21 Q Did you play any role in
22 recommending Janet Reno for the job of
176
1 attorney general?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Attorney objection,
4 objection to form also.
5 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you play any role in
8 recommending Janet Reno for the job of
9 attorney general in the Clinton
10 administration?
11 A I don't think recommend would be
12 accurate.
13 Q What would be a better phrase?
14 A I was a chief of the vetting team
15 that was put together to look into her
16 background. I made a report about the
17 results of our investigation.
18 Q Do you know of anyone, excluding
19 yourself, that sent information to Salon
20 magazine or persons who write for Salon
21 magazine while you were at the White House?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
177
1 THE WITNESS: Who sent information?
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Yes.
4 A Not that I am aware of. Not that I
5 am certain about, anyway.
6 Q Did you ever send any documentation
7 to New York Magazine while you were at the
8 White House?
9 A New York Magazine? I don't believe
10 so.
11 Q The New Yorker?
12 A The New Yorker? If Peter Boyer --
13 my best recollection is that Peter Boyer of
14 the New Yorker was working on a story, I
15 believe, about the Lums, and I may have sent
16 Peter Boyer some information about what we
17 had put out about a business week story
18 concerning the Lums.
19 Q Did you send him any underlying
20 documentation?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
178
1 A No.
2 Q Do you know a Jane Mayer?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Reporter with The New Yorker?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When did you first meet Jane Mayer?
7 A Sometime in the middle of my tenure
8 at the White House.
9 Q How did you come to meet her?
10 A She called me, asked me some
11 questions, I believe, on one of the campaign
12 finance stories. We talked, exchanged
13 pleasantries. She said would you ever like
14 to have lunch? I said absolutely, and we had
15 lunch a couple of times.
16 Q When, approximately, did you have
17 these conversations, the initial
18 conversations?
19 A I am guessing like the middle point
20 of my tenure. So that would be probably the
21 summer of '97, somewhere in there.
22 Q Did you discuss anything of
179
1 substance with her during that telephone
2 call?
3 A I don't know what you mean by of
4 substance.
5 Q Did you discuss anything about the
6 campaign finance scandal or other Clinton
7 controversies?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous.
9 You used the word cancel.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q I am sorry, controversy.
12 A I think she called me about one of
13 the stories that was current for that week or
14 that month, whatever triggered it was
15 something that was current, yes. I don't
16 remember specifically what she was calling
17 about. The subject matter would have been
18 the campaign finance.
19 Q When you had lunch with her on a
20 couple of occasions, what did you discuss
21 with her?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
180
1 THE WITNESS: We talked about the
2 handling of the campaign finance story, the
3 strategy that I was following. So it was
4 more a tactical strategy issue that she was
5 interested in than it was substantive, the
6 stories themselves.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Did you ever send any materials to
9 Ms. Mayer while you were at the White House?
10 A I am pretty sure I never did.
11 Q Do you know of anyone who ever did?
12 A I don't know of anyone who did.
13 Q Based on your experience at the
14 White House, Jane Mayer is thought of as a
15 friend of the Clinton administration at the
16 White House?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy,
18 vague, form.
19 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the
20 general perception is of Jane Mayer by other
21 people.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
181
1 Q You never became aware of that?
2 A No.
3 Q You are aware she is a friend of
4 Sidney Blumenthal, are you not?
5 A I wasn't aware of that.
6 Q Did you attend a reception at the
7 White House in the last few weeks for Mandy
8 Grunwald?
9 A No, was there a reception for Mandy
10 Grunwald? Why was I not invited?
11 Q Want to retain me we can find out?
12 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
13 (Witness conferred with counsel)
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Have you read reports that Miss
16 Mayer attended that reception?
17 A No.
18 Q Based upon your experience of
19 working in the White House, are there certain
20 reporters that are considered to be adverse
21 to administration in the media?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague.
182
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
2 relevancy.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You may answer.
5 A Not in my judgment.
6 Q Sue Schmidt of The Washington Post?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection form.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't believe she
9 has a particular hostility to the White
10 House.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You don't, but is it the opinion of
13 those at the White House that she does based
14 on your experience?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: I read newspaper
18 reports that there are people who believe
19 that she is somewhat hostile to the White
20 House, yes.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Were you privy to any
183
1 conversations, when you were at the White
2 House, where Miss Schmidt was being
3 criticized for her report?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, privilege
5 objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You may respond.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Who took part in those
11 conversations?
12 A I can't remember specifically who
13 took part. I can tell you generally that if
14 there were a newspaper article published in
15 the newspaper by a reporter that we thought
16 was inaccurate or unfair, we would talk about
17 it and there were occasions I, as well as
18 others, thought that Ms. Schmidt wrote an
19 unfair or inaccurate article. That would be
20 very specific and not a generalized
21 impression of her.
22 Q Were you aware of any attempts to
184
1 complain about Ms. Schmidt while you were at
2 the White House?
3 A Any attempts?
4 Q Any efforts to gather information
5 to use to criticize Ms. Schmidt?
6 A I was asked about that by
7 Ms. Schmidt several times, and I didn't know
8 the answer to that until much later.
9 Q When did you learn the answer?
10 A When I read the book recently.
11 Q What book did you read?
12 A It is called Spin Cycle. I read
13 the narration there, and I think I learned
14 for the first time some of the background of
15 that story.
16 Q Do you have any independent
17 knowledge of that story?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you know of anyone who does
20 other than through the Spin Cycle?
21 A Other than through reading the
22 book, no.
185
1 Q When you were at the White House,
2 did you ever see Miss Mayer visit anyone
3 there?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lacks
5 foundation, form.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 A No.
9 Q Are you aware of her ever having
10 visited the White House?
11 A No.
12 Q During the time that you were at
13 the White House, did you ever discuss Judge
14 Kenneth Starr?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Who did you discuss Judge Starr
17 with?
18 A Regularly, with the -- when there
19 would be something in the news pertaining to
20 Mr. Starr, I would have regular discussions
21 with my normal team of people pertaining to
22 responding to press inquiries concerning our
186
1 response to what Mr. Starr was doing.
2 Q Who were those regular people?
3 A I think I previously mentioned them
4 to you, I will be happy to do it again.
5 Q Yes, let's just identify them here.
6 A That is fine. Mr. Breuer,
7 Mr. Ruff, Adam Goldberg and Chess Johnson and
8 sometimes Cheryl Mills.
9 Q Anyone else?
10 A Sometimes Mike Peckuri.
11 Q Anyone else?
12 A There must have been others, but
13 those are the ones that I remember.
14 Q During the time that you were at
15 the White House, did you ever have any
16 professional doling with Sally Paxton?
17 A Yes.
18 Q In what context?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
20 THE WITNESS: Outside of social?
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q I don't want social, just
187
1 professional.
2 A When I was asked questions about a
3 subject area called the WHODB senate stories,
4 I was told early on in my tenure that
5 Ms. Paxton was the lawyer responsible for
6 answering that story and I would refer the
7 questions over to her and she would work with
8 another person in the press office to respond
9 to the press inquiries.
10 Q When you worked at the White House,
11 was there someone who was assigned to press
12 inquiries on each subject that was in the
13 public domain?
14 A I believe the answer to that is
15 yes, but I am not sure, because I was not
16 intimately familiar with the press system. I
17 knew that there were certain subjects I was
18 responsible for handling. If I would get a
19 question about something outside of those
20 subjects, I would either refer it over to the
21 press office or seek guidance from Mr. Breuer
22 as to whether I should respond.
188
1 Q Did you ever make any public
2 statements with regard to WHODB?
3 A I don't believe I did. I think I
4 referred those statements to somebody in the
5 press office who was responsible for speaking
6 for that issue.
7 Q Did you ever discuss WHODB in the
8 context of Filegate?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q With anyone?
12 A Explain to me what you mean by in
13 the context of Filegate. That is a vague
14 expression.
15 Q Did you ever have any discussion
16 whether the WHODB computer was used to house
17 information from FBI files?
18 A I never had a discussion about
19 that.
20 Q Do you know of anyone who has?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you ever have a discussion with
189
1 anyone as to how WHODB was used for political
2 purposes?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, lack of
4 foundation.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 A Did I ever have a discussion with
8 anyone as to whether WHODB was used for
9 political purposes? I believe I did.
10 Q Who did you have that discussion
11 with?
12 A I think I may have talked to
13 Ms. Paxton about that once or twice, and
14 Mr. Toiv about it, certainly more than once
15 or twice.
16 Q Would you ever make any public
17 statements to the media about whether or not
18 WHODB was used for political purposes?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague.
20 Political purposes.
21 THE WITNESS: I remember a couple
22 of occasions when Mr. Toiv was not around,
190
1 either ill or on vacation, where I had to
2 respond on behalf of the White House on the
3 WHODB issue.
4 I think I remember actually doing
5 so and then turning it right back over to
6 Mr. Toiv for the follow up. So I think there
7 is a possibility I did.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Who was Mr. Toiv's? What was his
10 position at the time?
11 A I believe he was either a deputy
12 White House press secretary or one of the
13 assistants to Mr. McCurry.
14 Q But, bottom line is, if the press
15 secretary needed information on WHODB, it was
16 your understanding that that press secretary
17 should go to Ms. Paxton?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
19 facts not in evidence.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A It was my understanding that
191
1 Ms. Paxton was the attorney responsible for
2 handling the WHODB issue. I don't know -- I
3 can't answer the specific question you just
4 asked me, though.
5 Q Were there any other attorneys
6 responsible for handling the WHODB issue?
7 A That is what I don't know. I am
8 not aware of any others, but I can't tell you
9 there weren't any others.
10 Q What other issues, if any, was
11 Ms. Paxton responsible for handling when you
12 were at the White House?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You can respond.
17 A I believe when this lawsuit was
18 filed, that Ms. Paxton was assigned the
19 responsibility of monitoring or being
20 involved in the legal aspects of it.
21 Q Anything else?
22 A When I first arrived at the White
192
1 House and I met Ms. Paxton, I believe she was
2 still involved with Mr. Breuer's predecessor,
3 James Sherburne and some of the Whitewater
4 issues.
5 Q Anything else?
6 A I can't think of anything else.
7 Q Did you ever go to Ms. Paxton with
8 regard to this lawsuit, Alexander versus FBI
9 when you were at the White House?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, intrudes on
11 attorney-client privilege.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not asking what
13 was the underlying discussion.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q I am asking did you ever consult
16 with Ms. Paxton concerning this particular
17 lawsuit you are here on today?
18 A Did you say when I was at the White
19 House?
20 Q Yes.
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q Did you ever seek any consultation
193
1 with her to be able to comment on issues
2 related to Filegate?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q Did you go to anyone in the White
5 House to get information on Filegate while
6 you were there?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lacks
8 foundation, mischaracterizes.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I
10 did.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You are not sure?
13 MR. MILLS: Consult with the
14 witness.
15 (Witness conferred with counsel)
16 THE WITNESS: I can't be certain of
17 never talking to anybody about any subject in
18 the White House. Anything could come up. I
19 wouldn't remember it.
20 But to the best of my recollection,
21 I never talked to anyone about this file
22 issue which occurred before my time and was
194
1 not on my plate in terms of my
2 responsibilities.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Now, with regard to Ken Starr,
5 during the period that you were at the White
6 House, was there an effort in the White House
7 counsel's office or any other office to clip
8 press articles about Judge Ken Starr?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know the
12 answer to that. Not that I was aware of. I
13 know what I did myself, but I am not aware
14 ever what others.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q What did you do yourself?
17 A My common practice for everything
18 was to follow a story that was being written
19 that I might have to comment on. By follow,
20 I mean I would tear out from the White House
21 press clips that I would get every morning
22 any story that related to a story that I
195
1 might be working on, so in case I got a
2 question there would be an easy way to look
3 for some recent press clips about it.
4 I didn't have a secretary. I had
5 to do all of this myself.
6 I believe that is what I did about
7 Mr. Starr. Whenever there was a story that I
8 might be involved in commenting upon, or
9 responsible for.
10 Q You would clip that story?
11 A I would tear out a newspaper
12 article that I read that might pertain to
13 something that was current about Mr. Starr,
14 that I might be required to comment on, and I
15 would put it in the folder with his name on
16 it.
17 Q In that folder, you would also put
18 other documents that might relate to
19 Mr. Starr, anything related to him?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, no
21 foundation.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: You may respond.
196
1 MR. MILLS: Assumes facts not in
2 evidence. Mr. Klayman, will you allow me to
3 get my objection on the record, before you
4 say tell the witness he may respond.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You may respond.
7 A My recollection is that I was
8 fairly eclectic in my judgments as to what to
9 put in the file because I was on my own
10 without a secretary. I tried to be
11 selective.
12 What I would generally throw in
13 there would be anything that we were working
14 on that had lead to a story. It might be in,
15 in the case of Mr. Starr, it might be a
16 newspaper clip. It might have been a comment
17 that I made that was published in a newspaper
18 article. It might have been a statement that
19 Mr. Ruff made about Mr. Starr. That is about
20 all I can remember.
21 Q So anything that was relevant, you
22 put in that folder?
197
1 MR. MILLS: Objection,
2 mischaracterizes testimony.
3 THE WITNESS: Relevance would be a
4 little bit too broad a term.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Anything that you might need to use
7 at some point?
8 A That is closer to it, that I might
9 need to refer to, if I were asked about the
10 particular story that I was concerned about.
11 I followed stories that were written,
12 newspaper stories, circulars. Some newspaper
13 story about Mr. Starr, my decision to throw
14 it into the file would relate to that
15 particular story.
16 Q As part of your duties and
17 responsibilities in covering the campaign
18 finance scandal, you kept a similar file
19 concerning Senator Thompson's hearings?
20 A Yes.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
198
1 Q You kept a file labeled Senator
2 Thompson?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
4 facts not in evidence. Leading.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 A I think it was labeled Thompson
8 committee or committee hearings, one of those
9 two. I was not concerned about Senator
10 Thompson personally, at all, just the
11 Committee hearings.
12 Q In that file, you would put
13 materials related to those hearings?
14 A Correct.
15 Q In that file, you would put
16 materials related to the Senators that sat on
17 that committee?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague,
19 immaterial, undefined.
20 THE WITNESS: To go to the word
21 materials again, I am talking about press
22 clippings, public statements. In this case
199
1 it might have been committee transcripts from
2 the days, from the hearings that were
3 published on the Internet. I would often
4 file some portion of the hearings that I
5 might need to refer to that were in the
6 Internet transcripts.
7 But no, I never kept specific
8 individuals Senator files. It was all
9 focused on particular stories written about
10 the hearings.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q But you knew that if you needed
13 something with regard to Senator Thompson's
14 role in those hearings, that is the file you
15 would go to?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, leading,
17 misstates the testimony.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A With about his role?
21 Q Yes.
22 A No, I don't think I never had
200
1 anything like that. But if I were looking
2 for stories that mention Senator Thompson as
3 chairmanship of that committee, it would be
4 in that area, yes.
5 Q You kept a similar file for
6 Congressman Burton?
7 A In exactly the same -- Burton
8 committee/hearings, something like that, yes.
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague with
10 respect to the word "file." I believe that
11 mischaracterizes his testimony.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't do that again
13 or we are going to the court. Certify it.
14 MR. MILLS: I am entitled to put my
15 objections on the record, Mr. Klayman.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not entitled
17 to make speaking objections and you are being
18 cautioned, Mr. Mills.
19 MR. MILLS: I am entitled to put on
20 the record the basis of the objections, and
21 to the extent something is vague or ambiguous
22 in your question I am entitled to identify
201
1 that portion of your question as vague or
2 ambiguous and those that forms the foundation
3 for the basis of my objection. That is the
4 rules.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: That is not the
6 rules. You just pushed me over the edge. We
7 will be moving for sanctions.
8 MR. MILLS: Do what you feel you
9 must do, Mr. Klayman, and if we determine
10 that your motion for sanctions is not well
11 taken, we will similarly move for --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: It will be against
13 you, not Mr. Davis.
14 THE WITNESS: What is your
15 question?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Where were these two folders or
18 files, whatever you wanted to call them,
19 kept? These three, Starr, Thompson
20 committee, Burton committee, where were they
21 kept?
22 A I had two places where I kept the
202
1 filings. The current ones which would be
2 month-old stories, right by my files. The
3 rest of the files was in a small file cabinet
4 against the wall.
5 Q What type of a file cabinet is
6 that?
7 A A little gray government stocked
8 file cabinet. Two cabinets high.
9 Q Did anyone help you do the filing?
10 A For most of my tenure at the White
11 House, no. I started to get some help in
12 about the summertime of 1997 from summer
13 interns and then I continued to have interns
14 through the fall and through the end of my
15 tenure.
16 Q Who were some of the interns?
17 A I really forget their names. They
18 were young people of college age who were in
19 the intern program. I am embarrassed to say
20 I can't remember their names. I can remember
21 their first names.
22 Q Now, during the time that you were
203
1 at the White House, these files were kept, or
2 folders, whatever you want to call them, on
3 Kenneth Starr, Thompson committee, Burton
4 Committee? We are just using it by way of
5 example.
6 A Generic subject area would be
7 Mr. Starr and the independent counsel's
8 office activities. I did not keep any file
9 directed at Mr. Starr personally.
10 Q But you did, sometimes, take
11 materials out of those files and send them to
12 people outside of the White House, did you
13 not?
14 A Which files?
15 Q The file concerning Starr?
16 A Did I ever --
17 Q Let him answer the question, it is
18 a simple question.
19 MR. MILLS: I am going to consult
20 with the witness.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: It is a simple
22 question, I object.
204
1 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the
2 question?
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You did sometimes take materials
5 from those files or folders, whatever you
6 call them and send them outside of the White
7 House?
8 A You are talking about Mr. Starr's
9 file?
10 Q Yes.
11 A So your question is did I ever send
12 anything from Mr. Starr's file to anyone
13 outside of the White House?
14 Q Yes.
15 A I can't remember specifically, but
16 honestly, I am sure I did.
17 Q Do you know who you sent them to?
18 A I can't remember. I was always
19 asked for newspaper clips that I might have
20 that other people, in the press, didn't have.
21 Someone would call and ask me for the story
22 on Mr. Starr, and I might have sent out
205
1 another newspaper article.
2 I believe the one reason I
3 hesitated is that we did issue a statement or
4 two about Mr. Starr when I was at the White
5 House, directed to something Mr. Starr had
6 done. I am sure I must have sent that
7 statement out to people who asked for it, and
8 that is why I hesitate in saying I never did.
9 Q Same question with regard to the
10 file that you kept concerning the Thompson
11 committee. You did send materials from that
12 file or folder to persons or entities outside
13 of the White House?
14 A I am sure I did, comments made
15 about Senator Thompson and the committee
16 hearings that we put out to the press I would
17 have sent to a number of people, yes.
18 Q Same question with regard to the
19 Burton committee?
20 A Same answer, comments made that we
21 sent out to the press corps, any written
22 statements in that file I would have sent
206
1 out, yes.
2 Q During the time that you worked at
3 the White House, was it your understanding
4 that it was the practice of other White House
5 counsel to keep files or folders by subject
6 matter on various issues?
7 A That is a safe assumption, yes.
8 Q Were there others in the White
9 House counsel's office that also had files or
10 folders concerning Mr. Starr, correct?
11 A I can't be sure specifically.
12 Q Did you ever get information from
13 someone else in the White House counsel's
14 office that was taken out of the file by
15 subject matter?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague and
18 form.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You can respond.
21 A Repeat the question. It is a
22 pretty general question.
207
1 Q Did you ever go to somebody else in
2 the White House counsel's office and say do
3 you have anything on Mr. Starr in this
4 particular area? Can you provide it to me?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague. This
6 particular area.
7 THE WITNESS: I can't remember ever
8 doing that. I probably did but I just can't
9 specifically remember.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Did you keep a file folder related
12 to Judicial Watch or Larry Klayman?
13 A No, I didn't. Sorry.
14 Q What other files did you keep?
15 A Whatever story was either about to
16 be written or had been written that had some
17 life to it, I would create a file by subject
18 and by date. Then after every month I would
19 clean out the file drawer next to my desk and
20 then start a new month of files.
21 Q What did you do with the files that
22 you cleaned out?
208
1 A I would move them to the file
2 cabinet and then consolidate them by subject
3 and chronology, so I would have current files
4 by my desk and less current files on those
5 same subjects by story, by particular stories
6 that were written in the other file cabinet.
7 Q Where are those files today?
8 A They are at the White House in my
9 old office.
10 Q Who occupies that office?
11 A Jim Kennedy.
12 Q Is there an inventory of those
13 files?
14 A I don't know if there is. You mean
15 a list of all of the file names?
16 Q Yes.
17 A There may well be.
18 Q Did you make such an inventory or
19 list when you were there at White House?
20 A At one point I tried, but I think I
21 gave up. I believe I did.
22 Q When you were at the White House
209
1 you had a computer, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Was it a desktop computer?
4 A It was a desktop computer.
5 Q You left that computer behind?
6 A I left the computer behind.
7 Q Did you make that list or attempt
8 to make that list on that particular
9 computer?
10 A I may have. I don't think so. I
11 think I asked one of my interns to go to my
12 file and write a list of all of the subject
13 areas in the file, and I don't think we ever
14 finished that project. It was one of the
15 many projects that I wanted to finish that I
16 didn't.
17 Q What computer was used by the
18 intern?
19 A There is a little computer on the
20 desk outside of my office that they use.
21 Q Do you know what kind of computer
22 that was?
210
1 A What brand name?
2 Q Yes.
3 A Maybe a Compaq, but I am not sure.
4 Q What kind of computer did you have?
5 A Compaq?
6 A I forget. I am embarrassed to say
7 I forget.
8 Q Do you remember the name of that
9 particular intern?
10 A There were a few. I had like
11 several that would rotate in and out. So
12 there wouldn't have been one. In fact, that
13 was the problem with my idea. I never had
14 enough continuity to finish anything I wanted
15 to do in terms of organizing.
16 Q Was it a man or a woman?
17 A I had a few of them, I had young
18 people, boys and girls. So, I really don't.
19 Q Law students?
20 A Most of them were college age. I
21 don't think any of them were law students.
22 Q When you left the White House, did
211
1 you or anyone else to the best of your
2 knowledge erase anything on your computer?
3 A I never did.
4 Q Do you know the anyone erased
5 anything on the interns computer?
6 A I am certainly not aware of any, I
7 am not aware of any. I doubt it.
8 Q Was it your practice to keep backup
9 disks on the computer?
10 A No.
11 Q Everything was put on the hard
12 drive?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you use a dictaphone when you
15 were at the White House?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you ever record telephone
18 conversations while you were at the White
19 House?
20 A Never.
21 Q Has it ever been your practice?
22 A Never. I live in Maryland. I am
212
1 sorry.
2 Q That is all right.
3 A I am not apologizing to you --
4 Q It is listed in the phone book,
5 right, that you are not supposed to do that.
6 Did you ever use a laptop computer when you
7 were at the White House?
8 A Very rarely. I had a laptop
9 computer that I sometimes brought to the
10 White House for various reasons, especially
11 at the end of my tenure, but I never used the
12 laptop, I used the main computer, I never
13 used the laptop for any White House
14 activities.
15 Q What did you use it for?
16 A At the end of my tenure, when I was
17 sort of winding down and Christmas time, I
18 brought my laptop in and dabbled with the
19 idea of writing a book.
20 Q Did you start writing a book?
21 A I tried to interest publishers in
22 my ideas, but they were not buying.
213
1 Q Don't tell me your literary agent
2 was Lucien Milburn?
3 A No.
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
5 THE WITNESS: No. But that is what
6 I worked on. It was around Christmas '97.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Did you ever use your laptop for
9 political correspondence?
10 A No.
11 Q Is your laptop still in existence,
12 that particular laptop?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you store information on the
15 hard drive of that laptop?
16 A Always.
17 Q Have you ever erased anything from
18 that hard drive?
19 A I don't know how to.
20 Q What kind of laptop is it?
21 A A Toshiba.
22 Q What is the model?
214
1 A Like a three or four year old
2 Toshiba laptop.
3 Q Did you use White House computers
4 ever for preparing correspondence, personal
5 correspondence?
6 A I don't think so. I may have sent
7 a couple of E-mails to friends, but not very
8 often.
9 Q From your computer, did you ever
10 have access to White House databases?
11 A No. No, not that I am aware of.
12 Q Do you know of anyone in the White
13 House counsel's office who could access a
14 White House database?
15 A I wasn't aware of it.
16 Q On his or her computer?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
18 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of
19 that.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Do you know whether or not Bruce
22 Lindsey had access to the WHODB computer
215
1 database?
2 A I do not know.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Have you learned that in the
6 context of this case, other than my just
7 having said that?
8 A I don't think so.
9 Q Let me run through some things.
10 Was there a file that referred or related in
11 any way that you kept concerning Newt
12 Gingrich?
13 A No.
14 Q Do you know of anyone else who kept
15 a file in the White House on Newt Gingrich or
16 related to him?
17 A Not that I am aware of.
18 Q Did you keep any files that
19 referred or related to independent counsel,
20 Donald Smaltz?
21 A I did not.
22 Q Do you know of anyone who?
216
1 A Not that I am aware of.
2 Q Did you keep any files that
3 referred or related in any way to Henry Hyde?
4 A I did not.
5 Q Or the Judiciary Committee in the
6 House?
7 A The files?
8 Q Files or folders, whatever you
9 wanted to call them?
10 A I am not making that distinction.
11 With his name on it, that was about him?
12 Q Or where you knew you could find
13 information about him.
14 A Yes.
15 Q What file did you have on that?
16 A I kept a file on the issue of
17 whether an independent counsel should be
18 appointed because of campaign finance issues.
19 I collected lots of legal materials about
20 that subject. Some of that related to
21 letters that were signed by or received by
22 Chairman Hyde on that issue.
217
1 Q So you knew that if you wanted to
2 find letters from Chairman Hyde, you would
3 look in that file?
4 A Not letters, letters about the
5 issue of whether an independent counsel
6 should be appointed on campaign finance
7 issues. That is the only memory I have of
8 anything pertaining to Chairman Hyde.
9 Q What else was kept in that
10 independent counsel file?
11 A I could do one more slip and say
12 read the Wall Street Journal today and you
13 will see.
14 Q I did see your article in there.
15 A That is actually truthful, I kept
16 legal materials about the independent
17 counsel's statute and its application to
18 campaign finance issues, thinking some day
19 that would become an important issue and it
20 did. I addressed it.
21 Q These files that we are going
22 through right now, did you make copies of any
218
1 of the materials in them and take them when
2 you left?
3 A Yes, that is what I was referring
4 to. You asked me that earlier, I said I did
5 make copies of some of the files that I
6 collected.
7 Q Which copies of files did you make?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
10 answered.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You can respond.
13 A I made copies of the stories that I
14 thought were most interesting that I had
15 worked on at the White House. For example,
16 the Arlington Cemetery story, which is a
17 series of stories that were about the
18 Arlington Cemetery issue. Or the independent
19 counsel statute issue. Or Roger Tamraz
20 stories.
21 Things relating to campaign
22 financing that I thought were interesting,
219
1 and I made copies of newspaper clips and
2 materials and I took them with me.
3 Q What file was that material kept?
4 What was it labeled?
5 A What file was what material?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q About Arlington Cemetery?
9 A I called that Arlington Cemetery.
10 Q You knew if you wanted materials
11 about materials on Larry Lawrence, that is
12 where you would go?
13 A If I wanted materials about the
14 newspaper coverage of the Larry Lawrence
15 story, that is where I would go, yes.
16 Q If you wanted to find out something
17 that was written by Paul Rodriguez of Insight
18 Magazine, that is where you would go?
19 A Precisely.
20 Q Or if you wanted something written
21 by Ariel Hoffington about the Lawrence issue,
22 that is where you would go?
220
1 A If I had seen, and I do believe I
2 remember one from Miss Hoffington that I read
3 that I thought was interesting, I put it in
4 there and that is where I would go.
5 Q You made copies of that file and
6 took it with you when you left?
7 A Correct.
8 Q What other files did you copy, what
9 materials?
10 A What subject areas?
11 Q Yes, that you took with you.
12 A Do you want me to try to remember
13 all of them? Because I have categorically
14 described them as stories I thought were
15 interesting.
16 Q Let's go through what you remember.
17 It will make things easier.
18 MR. MILLS: Before he answers,
19 there is a continuing line objection to
20 relevance on this whole line of inquiry.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You may respond.
221
1 A I went through the year and tried
2 to pick out stories about the stories that
3 told interesting stories. The journalism. I
4 was interested in how journalists covered
5 what I was responsible for.
6 Q Tell me what files you went to make
7 those copies?
8 A I think I mentioned Arlington
9 Cemetery, Roger Tamraz, the two committees,
10 the Thompson and Burton hearings, Hudson
11 casino stories, molten metals story, Doris
12 Matsuie and Webster Hubbell story, the Lums
13 story. Give me some time. I may remember
14 all of them. The molten metals story. The
15 Monica Lewinsky story in the short period of
16 time I was there. That is probably most of
17 them.
18 Q With regard to the Monica Lewinsky
19 story, the file or folder was labeled Monica
20 Lewinsky?
21 A I think so.
22 Q In that file, you would put
222
1 materials concerning Judge Starr as related
2 to Monica Lewinsky?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, misstates
4 testimony. Objection, vague as to term
5 "materials."
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 A There was certainly material -- it
9 was only in the White House for ten days from
10 the first day that the Monica Lewinsky story
11 broke. So there were only ten days worth of
12 clips.
13 But there were a whole bunch of
14 newspaper clips about Lewinsky, the Lewinsky
15 story, including, I am sure references to the
16 Ken Starr prosecution and team and tactics.
17 Q In that file, would you put
18 materials or documents concerning Linda
19 Tripp?
20 A In those first ten days, I am sure
21 there were references to Linda Tripp as the
22 wire, yes, there have to be references to
223
1 Linda Tripp -- we are talking about clips,
2 now. I didn't have anything other than
3 newspaper clips because I was not speaking
4 about or responsible for the story. I was
5 just collecting clips.
6 I am sure Linda Tripp was mentioned
7 in the clips.
8 Q In that file would you put in
9 information about Kathleen Willey?
10 A Well, again you are using the word
11 information and I wouldn't agree with that
12 word. I put newspaper stories in that would
13 have related to various issues and
14 information.
15 I can't tell you for sure in the
16 first ten days of that story whether Kathleen
17 Willey was ever mentioned. I doubt it, but I
18 can't tell you for sure.
19 Q Was there a file where you kept
20 materials about women who had been alleged to
21 have had relationships with Mr. Clinton?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
224
1 THE WITNESS: I certainly didn't
2 keep those files myself. Again, I can't tell
3 you, and I am pretty sure, I am pretty sure I
4 can say that newspaper stories contained in
5 all of my files had references to other
6 stories that were written about people, but I
7 did not organize files for that purpose.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Do you know of anybody who did?
10 A At the White House?
11 Q Yes.
12 A No, I do not.
13 Q But you knew where in your files
14 you could go if you needed some information
15 about Kathleen Willey or Linda Tripp?
16 A Well, if I could correct one thing:
17 In the summer of 1997, in the early fall the
18 Kathleen Willey story broke. I am pretty
19 sure that I created a file about the Newsweek
20 story and its aftermath. I am not sure I
21 called it Kathleen Willey, but I am pretty
22 sure, by my usual system, I would have done
225
1 that. I just don't remember creating a
2 Kathleen Willey file.
3 Q But if you knew that if you needed
4 information about Kathleen Willey?
5 A I would look for the summer of 1997
6 chronology and try to find the subject area.
7 Q Was there a file you could try to
8 find material about Dolly Browning?
9 A No.
10 Q Did you ever gather information on
11 that?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
14 A No.
15 Q Paula Jones?
16 A I kept clips on Paula Jones
17 randomly, not systematically. Because I was
18 not responsible for commenting on Paula Jones
19 at all.
20 There were times that I would
21 collect an interesting Op Ed piece or
22 something to that effect. But, I don't think
226
1 I kept a file on Paula Jones. I might have
2 had materials about her, relating to the
3 case.
4 Q Did you ever keep a file or folder
5 that referred or related in any way to
6 Richard Mellon-Scaife?
7 A I did not keep a file of concerning
8 Richard Mellon-Scaife.
9 Q Was there a file you knew you could
10 go to that you kept, or others had, where you
11 would find materials about Mr. Scaife?
12 A Materials about?
13 Q Documents.
14 A I would say, what do you mean by
15 documents?
16 Q Anything, press clips?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Documents?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What file was that?
21 A The only one I can specifically
22 remember, but I am sure there could have been
227
1 others in a different file, different stories
2 that referenced him. Remember we are talking
3 about, for the most part about newspaper
4 stories where his name would come up. I
5 can't remember all of those.
6 I remember there was one notebook
7 that I inherited from my predecessor that
8 pertained to a theory that stories that were
9 on the extreme of the political spectrum,
10 that weren't in the mainstream, and were
11 inaccurate, would be published by tabloid
12 extremist organizations and then get to the
13 back washed into the mainstream media.
14 I believe that there were some
15 materials in there about Mr. Scaife that I
16 remember reading.
17 Q Who was your predecessor?
18 A Mr. Fabiani.
19 Q He kept a notebook where materials
20 were contained concerning Mr. Scaife?
21 A I don't believe he kept it. I
22 think it was created when he was there, and I
228
1 found it in a file cabinet when I arrived
2 during my first week at the White House.
3 Q Do you know who created it?
4 A I don't know who created it, other
5 than what I read in Spin Cycle.
6 Q Was the so-called conspiracy stream
7 of commerce project?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: I couldn't call it
10 project, that was the title.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Conspiracy Stream of Commerce?
13 A I don't think so.
14 Q You don't like the word project?
15 A No. I don't like or dislike it. I
16 don't think that was the name.
17 Q It remind you of Arkansas project?
18 MR. MILLS: Off the record.
19 (Discussion off the record)
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q What other materials were kept in
22 that binder?
229
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
2 THE WITNESS: That binder had a
3 two-page summary, and the rest of it were
4 newspaper clips. I think it was about 300
5 pages, and about 290 of the pages were
6 newspaper clips.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q What documents were in there other
9 than newspaper clips? What types?
10 A There is a two page summary
11 statement, and the rest of it was newspaper
12 clips.
13 Q Did you keep a file concerning
14 Western Journalism Center?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
17 A No.
18 Q Joe Farah?
19 A Who?
20 Q Who is the director of the Western
21 Journalism Center?
22 A Never heard of him.
230
1 Q Christopher Ruddy?
2 A No.
3 Q Was there a file where you could
4 find materials about Mr. Ruddy?
5 A No.
6 Q Olan Foundation?
7 A Never heard of it.
8 Q Landmark Legal Foundation?
9 A There was no file on Landmark.
10 Q Was there anything that you would
11 keep materials that you could now retrieve
12 it?
13 A You are now asking me all of these
14 questions about me, right?
15 Q Yes.
16 A No.
17 Q Mark Levin?
18 A No.
19 Q Congressman Bob Barr?
20 A No.
21 Q Was there a file you could go to
22 where you could find material about
231
1 Congressman Bob Barr or information?
2 A Not that I was aware of.
3 Q David Bossy, do you know who David
4 Bossy is?
5 A I sure do.
6 Q Any files where you could go to
7 find information about him?
8 A No.
9 Q Judge David Sentelle, do you know
10 who Judge David Sentelle is?
11 A I sure do.
12 Q Was there a file you could go to
13 where you would go to find out information
14 about any judges?
15 A Again, my running caveat is that
16 newspaper articles have so many different
17 subject areas over such a long period of time
18 might make reference to all of the people
19 that you are talking about and I can't tell
20 you I remembered all of those references you
21 talked about. With that caveat in mind, no.
22 Q Was there a file that kept or
232
1 related in way to Jesse Helms, Senator Helms?
2 A No.
3 Q Senator Lauch Faircloth?
4 A No.
5 Q Pat Robertson?
6 A No.
7 Q David Brock?
8 A No.
9 Q Floyd Brown? Do you know who Floyd
10 is?
11 A Do I know who he is? I sure do
12 know who he is.
13 Q Did you keep a file where you could
14 go to find information about Mr. Brown?
15 A No.
16 Q Governor Mike Huckabee of Arkansas?
17 A No.
18 Q Congressman Jack Kingston?
19 A No.
20 Q Brent Bozell, do you know who Brent
21 Bozell is?
22 A I think so.
233
1 Q Any file that you could go to find
2 information about him?
3 A I could save you the trouble. If
4 they were not part of the campaign finance
5 story and subject to journalism pertaining to
6 that story, the answer would be know no to
7 all of your questions.
8 Q Did you keep a file you could find
9 any information about Judge David Hale?
10 A By definition, since David Hale was
11 not involved the in the campaign finance
12 areas, since I did not speak to that issue I
13 did not keep --
14 Q Do you keep a file on White Water,
15 where you could keep?
16 A That is the caveat. If you want me
17 to, I will repeat every time the same caveat.
18 The caveat is that his name certainly is
19 going to appear. I had a file on White Water
20 stories. I am sure that David Hale's name
21 appeared in those stories every so often.
22 Q You knew if you wanted to get
234
1 information about Hale, that is the file you
2 would go to, if you had it?
3 A Yes, but it would be very, very
4 difficult because they were not organized by
5 subject areas. I would go to the clips of
6 White Water and there would be a pile of
7 unassembled newspaper clips and look through
8 to find David Hale's name. That would be
9 pretty inefficient.
10 Q But you did know, that is where you
11 would have to start?
12 A If he was there, that is where I
13 would start.
14 Q Joseph DiGenova? Is there a file
15 where you would go to find information about
16 him?
17 A Same caveat, no.
18 Q Mr. DiGenova and his wife, Victoria
19 Toensing, are counsel relating to the
20 Teamsters controversy?
21 A Which I had nothing to do with on
22 my watch.
235
1 Q It does not have something to do
2 with campaign finance?
3 A Conceivably yes, but I left the
4 White House just as that was beginning. It
5 was not on my watch.
6 Q Did you have any information that
7 you kept concerning Joseph DiGenova and
8 Victoria Toensing?
9 A No.
10 Q Even contained in newspaper
11 articles?
12 A Again, I want the record to be
13 clear that every question you are asking me
14 relates to the caveat that I expressed now a
15 couple of times.
16 Q Washington Legal Foundation?
17 A You are asking me the same
18 question.
19 Q Did you keep a file where you new
20 you could find information for the Washington
21 Legal Foundation?
22 A I did not keep a file. No, I did
236
1 not.
2 Q Did you keep a file where you knew
3 you could find information about John Huang?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What was the name of that file?
6 A Jon Huang, or Huang.
7 Q Did you keep a file on Helene
8 Calchaneheck?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did you keep a file on Johnny
11 Chung?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you keep a file on Ron Brown?
14 A No.
15 Q Commerce Department?
16 A Not campaign finance.
17 Q If you wanted to find something
18 about allegations of selling seats on trade
19 missions, where would you go look?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, lack of
21 foundation.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
237
1 Q You can respond.
2 A I would not have had a file on
3 that.
4 Q Was that not part of the campaign
5 finance controversy?
6 A It did not really come up in the
7 context of my responsibilities.
8 Q Why?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't know why. I
11 mean, I was a mirror of what journalists were
12 interested in. They didn't come to me with
13 stories about selling seats. It may have
14 been before my watch. It may have been that
15 they were working on other things.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q These files were basically kept so
18 you would have materials to provide to the
19 media?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection,
21 mischaracterizes.
22 THE WITNESS: Exactly, my job was
238
1 to help reporters write stories, good
2 stories, bad stories. Help them write
3 stories.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q So the materials and documents
6 would be gathered so that you could help them
7 write the stories?
8 A Once they were written, they were
9 reference points for follow up questions
10 where I would be able to look back to see
11 what we had previously said or what had
12 previously been reported so I could stay
13 accurate and factual.
14 Q From time to time, because you were
15 gathering these materials and filing them to
16 help the reporters write stories, you would
17 send them copies of some of these materials?
18 A If they asked me.
19 Q Yes.
20 A Yes.
21 Q You did that?
22 A Yes.
239
1 MR. MILLS: Consult with the
2 witness.
3 (Witness conferred with counsel)
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Did you keep a file on Charlie
6 Trie?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Your answers with regard to Charlie
9 Trie would be the same as with these other
10 files?
11 A Yes. I don't think you need me or
12 want me to constantly restate the caveat.
13 When we are talking about files on a person,
14 I mean on a series of stories about that
15 person. I didn't keep personal files
16 information about Charlie Trie. I kept a
17 file about the journalism coverage of Charlie
18 Trie.
19 Q Did you ever keep a file concerning
20 Richard Sullivan of the DNC?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you know where to go to look
240
1 for information on Richard Sullivan in your
2 files?
3 A I would have known where to go to
4 look for stories written about the DNC. I
5 mean, there would be lots of places I would
6 be able -- I would go to if I were looking
7 for stories where Richard Sullivan's name was
8 mentioned. There was no specific place I
9 could think of to find information about
10 Richard Sullivan, no.
11 Q Now, with regard to the persons
12 whose information you testified to that were
13 in your files, did you or anyone at the White
14 House ever notify these people that
15 information was being kept that related or
16 concerned them?
17 A Well, I can't tell you that --
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
19 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you that
20 anybody -- are you asking me did I ever
21 notify them?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
241
1 Q Yes.
2 A That I was keeping a file or
3 newspaper stories about them?
4 Q Or whatever else was in the file?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection to the extent
6 that you misstate his testimony.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
8 THE WITNESS: Whenever was being
9 made in a public statement.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Whatever you considered a public
12 statement.
13 A That is fair. Did I? No, never
14 did that.
15 Q Before you released information
16 from any of these files to the media, before
17 you sent it to the media, did you ever
18 consult with anyone who was referred to in
19 these materials?
20 A No.
21 Q You never sought their permission?
22 A No.
242
1 Q Do you know of anyone who did at
2 the White House?
3 A No.
4 Q In your campaign finance files, was
5 there any reference to Judicial Watch that
6 you know of?
7 A I can't be certain of that, one way
8 or the other.
9 Q What is your best guess?
10 A I would guess Judicial Watch gets
11 into the newspapers every so often. I would
12 guess that its name would appear here and
13 there. I don't remember ever seeing it.
14 Q Weren't you asked questions by the
15 media about Judicial Watch?
16 MR. MILLS: Consult with me.
17 THE WITNESS: Say that again.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Were you ever asked any questions
20 by the media about Judicial Watch?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you know of anyone who was?
243
1 A I am not aware of any.
2 Q Were you ever asked questions by
3 anyone in the media about Judge Lamberth?
4 A I don't believe so.
5 Q With regards to the various
6 materials that you kept and filed, was there
7 anything concerning Judge Lamberth in those
8 materials?
9 A I can't be 100 percent certain his
10 name was not mentioned somewhere. My best
11 knowledge would be no.
12 Q Do you know of anyone in the White
13 House who did or does keep materials about,
14 that concern or relate to Judge Lamberth?
15 A I am not aware of anyone.
16 Q Judge Norma Holloway Johnson, same
17 question?
18 A I am not aware of any. I didn't,
19 nor am I aware of any.
20 Q Are you aware of any procedure in
21 the White House counsel's office to destroy
22 documents?
244
1 A No, I am not.
2 Q Is there a document retention
3 policy that you know of in the White House
4 counsel's office?
5 A I am not aware of any.
6 Q Is there a document retention
7 policy generally in the White House that you
8 are aware of?
9 A Not that I'm aware of.
10 Q Was there any directive, that you
11 are aware of when you came to the White
12 House, or afterwards which directed people to
13 destroy certain documents?
14 A I wasn't aware of any.
15 Q So to the best of your knowledge,
16 files and documents which you kept, which you
17 generated and kept in the White House should
18 still be in existence?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Did you keep a chron file of
21 communications that you generated when you
22 were at the White House?
245
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
2 THE WITNESS: I did not.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Did you keep copies of letters
5 which you sent?
6 A I did not, unless it was by
7 accident. I didn't have a secretary.
8 Q Well, letters were kept on hard
9 drive of your computer?
10 A If they were written on my hard
11 drive, and I don't think I wrote that many
12 letters, quite honestly, they would still be
13 there.
14 Q Did you make diskettes of
15 everything on the hard drive and leave the
16 White House with the diskettes?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
18 answered.
19 THE WITNESS: Not that I can ever
20 recall. Excuse me, did you say did I ever
21 make a diskette?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
246
1 Q I will ask you that question: Did
2 you ever make a diskette?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When did you make a diskette?
5 A I may have misstated before if I
6 said I never used anything on a diskette.
7 You just jogged my memory. If I said that
8 before, let me correct it.
9 There would be occasions where we
10 would be working on certain public statements
11 or Qs and As, that I would need to be
12 prepared for on a pending story.
13 I would make a diskette of our
14 first draft, and I would go across the street
15 to Mr. Ruff's office where we would work on
16 it over there. That would be the only time
17 that I remember using a transfer on to a
18 diskette methodology.
19 Q Did you keep copies of those
20 diskettes? Did you keep copies of those
21 diskettes?
22 A I did not. I have no idea where
247
1 they are. We were quite randomly left places
2 and searched for and reused and very
3 eclectically. So the answer is no.
4 Q What does "eclectic" mean?
5 A It means very diverse and by
6 happenstance. Not routine.
7 Q Did you ever contact Mr. Begala,
8 Mr. Blumenthal, Ms. Lewis, Mr. Emanuel to see
9 if they had documents that could be helpful
10 to the press?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection asked and
12 answered.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Documents, press release,
15 statements, whatever?
16 A No, I didn't.
17 Q Mr. McCurry?
18 A Not to the best of my recollection.
19 Mr. McCurry, documents, I would certainly ask
20 Mike McCurry for the press statements or
21 press releases, either the current ones that
22 he just put out or ones previously put out
248
1 pertaining to the issue, yes.
2 I would not ask him personally, I
3 would ask Laurie Anderson, probably.
4 Q You were aware that Judicial Watch
5 on behalf of its clients had filed or filed a
6 class action lawsuit, were you not?
7 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
8 facts not in evidence, no foundation.
9 THE WITNESS: While I was at the
10 White House?
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Yes, while you were at the White
13 House?
14 A I don't believe so.
15 Q How did that issue come up?
16 A It actually came up in the context
17 that knowing that Ms. Paxton had been
18 assigned responsibilities to monitor the
19 case.
20 Q You were aware that the White House
21 had been joined as a defendant, the Executive
22 Office of the President?
249
1 A I was kind of aware of it. I
2 didn't get into the details of it, but I was
3 aware of it.
4 Q You were aware the White House was
5 alleged to have violated the Privacy Act?
6 A I think I was aware of that.
7 Q You were aware that the White
8 House, called the Executive Office of the
9 President the White House, was alleged to
10 have violated the District of Columbia tort
11 of invocation of Privacy Act?
12 A I didn't know that.
13 Q You were aware that White House
14 challenged whether it could be sued under the
15 Privacy Act?
16 A Do you mind if I take my coat off?
17 Q No.
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, lack of
19 foundation.
20 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the
21 question?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
250
1 Q You were aware that the White House
2 filed a motion to dismiss on the basis that
3 it wasn't covered by the Privacy Act?
4 A I was not aware of that at the
5 time. I may have read about it since, but I
6 was not aware of it at the time.
7 Q You did become aware, when you
8 worked at the White House, that the White
9 House motion to dismiss was denied by the
10 court?
11 A While I was at the White House?
12 Q Yes.
13 A I think I may have heard that we
14 lost some motion, but I forget what it was
15 about.
16 Q That you lost a motion to dismiss?
17 A I think I heard we lost some motion
18 relating to this case. I don't think I knew
19 it was a motion to dismiss.
20 Q During the time you were in the
21 White House, you had no basis to believe that
22 the White House wasn't covered by the Privacy
251
1 Act, did you?
2 A I didn't know one way or the other.
3 Q Did you ever seek advice as to
4 whether or not the White House was covered by
5 the Privacy Act?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you ever do any research to
8 that effect?
9 A No.
10 Q Did you ask anybody else to do it?
11 A No.
12 Q Did anyone ever tell you whether
13 the White House was covered by the Privacy
14 Act?
15 A No.
16 Q Given the fact that you are
17 releasing materials from files to persons and
18 entities outside of the White House, based
19 upon your considerable legal experience, why
20 didn't you check to see whether the White
21 House was covered by the Privacy Act?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
252
1 THE WITNESS: I never thought about
2 it. One way or the other.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Up to the time that you took your
5 job in the White House you had been engaged
6 in legal matters concerning government
7 practice?
8 A I don't know what you mean by
9 government practice.
10 Q Matters involving the government?
11 A I was involved in matters
12 pertaining to the government, yes.
13 Q During that period of time, did you
14 ever file Freedom of Information Act requests
15 on behalf of your clients?
16 A Yes, yes, many times.
17 Q Did you ever have any legal matters
18 involving the Privacy Act up to the point you
19 took your job in the White House?
20 A Never.
21 Q Are you aware that Freedom of
22 Information Act is part of the Privacy Act?
253
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, misstates
2 the law.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q What is your understanding?
6 A I am embarrassed to say I never
7 knew that, if it is true.
8 Q Were there any materials circulated
9 at the time that you were at the White House
10 providing guidance on whether certain
11 materials should be released and others
12 should not be released to the public?
13 A I don't recall any. I just want to
14 remind you, because I didn't want to
15 interrupt the flow of your questions, when I
16 send out published newspaper articles, that
17 is all I did. Matters that I considered to
18 be already in the public domain.
19 So for me there would be no trigger
20 in my mind of a Privacy Act issue, although
21 you I have never read the Privacy Act and
22 know nothing with it.
254
1 Q Did anyone ever provide advice to
2 you or anyone else that you know of on
3 Privacy Act requirements in terms of
4 disseminating information from the White
5 House?
6 A Not while I was in the White House,
7 no.
8 Q So as far as you know, it wasn't a
9 concern at the White House?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 THE WITNESS: It might have been a
13 concern, it just wasn't communicated to me.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Yet your job was to disseminate
16 information to members of the media, correct?
17 A To disseminate information for
18 publication to the media that we considered
19 to be factual, yes.
20 Q You never thought it prudent to get
21 advice on what you could disseminate and what
22 you could not?
255
1 MR. MILLS: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: I considered it
3 prudent to get advice on making sure that
4 what I said was accurate and factual. If I
5 was convinced it was accurate and factual,
6 then I was comfortable in any own mind, as an
7 attorney, and according to my own standards,
8 that I should release it to the press.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q I am not saying you did this, but
11 let's take your guide posts, if information
12 from an FBI file was accurate as far as you
13 could determine, then under your system of
14 deciding whether to release it, that would be
15 sufficient?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection,
17 hypothetical. You can ask the witness fact
18 questions.
19 THE WITNESS: I think my logic and
20 legal experience would make a distinction
21 between an FBI file and a newspaper article
22 that had been published in a newspaper in the
256
1 public domain.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q What, based on your experience and
4 logic would tell you that an FBI file should
5 be treated differently than a newspaper
6 article?
7 A You asking for my uninformed
8 opinion on that? I think an FBI file
9 contains allegations that are unproven and
10 may not be accurate and cannot be
11 substantiated by me, or anyone for that
12 matter, and therefore would be very unfair to
13 release publicly.
14 Q Based on your considerable
15 experience with media, are you saying that
16 the media always published accurate
17 information?
18 A No, it does not.
19 Q It frequently does not?
20 A It frequently does not.
21 Q So therefore, what is the
22 distinction?
257
1 A I would judge the nature of the
2 publication, the Legal Times stories on
3 Arlington Cemetery, and Insight Magazine was
4 inaccurate. So in the future, I would not
5 rely on the accuracy of that publication
6 until shown otherwise.
7 If it was a New York Times or a
8 Washington Post story previously published,
9 where I had some basis to believe that they
10 had checked their sources for reliability, I
11 would make a judgment that that would be
12 safer for me to make a judgment that it was
13 accurate.
14 Q Based upon recent reports that CNN
15 did not report the story on Saran correctly,
16 does that mean, given your guide posts, you
17 would no longer rely on CNN as a source of
18 information?
19 A I think you would have to balance
20 the likelihood of errors versus their track
21 record of accuracy.
22 In the case of CNN, I would balance
258
1 the errors versus the good journalism and
2 probably come up in -- definitely come up in
3 favor of relying on the CNN report
4 notwithstanding the mistake.
5 Q When you were in the White House
6 and you faxed materials to reporters, was
7 there a fax log that you logged in what you
8 were faxing?
9 A No.
10 Q Did you get confirmations on the
11 fax machine that it went through?
12 A Yes.