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_____________________________________ CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, et al., Defendants. _____________________________________ |
) ) ) ) ) ) Civil No. 96-2123/97-1288 (RCL) ) ) ) ) ) |
12 Deposition of
13 LANNY J. DAVIS
14 a witness, called for examination by counsel
15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and
16 agreement of counsel, beginning at
17 approximately 10:11 a.m. at the offices of
18 Judicial Watch, 501 School Street S.W.,
19 Washington, D.C., before Michelle M. Howell,
20 notary public in and for the District of
21 Columbia, when were present on behalf of the
22 respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE
4 Judicial Watch
501 School Street S.W., Suite 725
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
(202) 646-5172
6
On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of
7 Investigation and the Executive
Office of the President:
8
ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
9 Federal Programs Branch
Civil Division
10 United States Department of Justice
901 E Street N.W.
11 P.O. Box 883
Washington, D.C. 20044
12
On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton:
13
PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE
14 Williams & Connolly
725 12th Street N.W.
15 Washington, D.C. 20005
(202) 434-5083
16
On behalf of Executive Office of the President:
17
SALLY PAXTON, ESQUIRE
18 Special Associate Counsel to the President
The White House
19 Washington, D.C. 20500
(202) 456-5079
20
21
22
3
1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D.):
2 On behalf of the witness:
3 TIMOTHY MILLS, ESQUIRE
Patton Boggs, LLP
4 2550 M Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20037
5 (202) 457-6000
6 ALSO PRESENT:
7 Sylvanus Holley, Video Technician
8 C O N T E N T S
9 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
10 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5
11 DAVIS DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
12 No. 1 - November 21, 1996 Press 67
Secretary Statement
13
No. 2 - Davis Subpoena 82
14
No. 3 - Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum 83
15
No. 4 - February 8, 1998 Transcript, 303
16 "Weekly Roundtable"
17 No. 5 - January 24, 1996 Fax, 328
Caputo to Carville
18
No. 6 - National Review Article, 423
19 "Obstruct Art"
20 No. 7 - September 6, 1996 Sherburne Memo 439
21
22 * * * * *
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This
3 is the video deposition of Lanny J. Davis,
4 taken by the counsel for the plaintiff in the
5 matter of Cara Leslie Alexander et al. v.
6 Federal Bureau of Investigation et al., case
7 number 96-2123, held in the office of
8 Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, S.W.,
9 Washington, D.C., on this date,
10 July 30, 1998, and at the time indicated on
11 the video screen, which is 10:11 a.m.
12 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am
13 the videographer. The court reporter today
14 is Michele Howell from the firm of Beta
15 Reporting.
16 Will counsel now introduce
17 themselves?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: My name is Larry
19 Klayman. I'm chairman general counsel of
20 Judicial Watch.
21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president,
22 Judicial Watch.
5
1 MR. MILLS: Timothy Mills, Patton
2 Boggs, LLP, representing Lanny J. Davis.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro on
4 behalf of EOP.
5 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton with the
6 White House.
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney,
8 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First
9 Lady.
10 Whereupon,
11 LANNY J. DAVIS
12 was called as a witness and, having been
13 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
14 as follows:
15 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Please state your name.
18 A Lanny, J. Davis.
19 Q When were you born, Mr. Davis?
20 A December 12, 1945.
21 Q Where were you born?
22 A Jersey City, New Jersey.
6
1 Q Run me through briefly your
2 educational background from high school to
3 postgraduate studies.
4 A High school, Newark Academy;
5 college, Yale; law school, Yale, LL.B.
6 Q What did you do, if anything, upon
7 graduating from Yale Law School,
8 professionally speaking?
9 A Do you want every job since law
10 school?
11 Q Yes.
12 A I worked for as a speechwriter for
13 then-Congressman Daddario (phonetic) of
14 Connecticut, of Hartford, Connecticut, who
15 was a candidate for Governor between June and
16 December of 1970. Then I worked for Senator
17 Edmund S. Muskie in his presidential campaign
18 here in Washington 1970-'72.
19 I was an associate attorney at the
20 law firm of Arnold & Porter between 1972
21 and '75. I have been at the firm of Patton
22 Boggs in Washington, D.C. since 1975.
7
1 Q Are you a partner at Patton and
2 Boggs?
3 A I am.
4 Q Did there come a point in time when
5 you ever run for political office or
6 considered running for political office?
7 A Yes.
8 Q When was that?
9 A In 1974 and then 1976.
10 Q Where had you decided to run for
11 political office?
12 A In the Eighth Congressional
13 District of Maryland.
14 Q Did you ultimately run?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q As a Congressman?
17 A I ran for Congressman.
18 Q You were not successful?
19 A Not successful.
20 Q You ran as a Democratic candidate?
21 A As a Democratic candidate.
22 Q During the course of your practice
8
1 at Patton Boggs, what is your specialty, if
2 any?
3 A Litigation.
4 Q Is there a type of litigations that
5 you specialize in more than others?
6 A No, not really.
7 Q Have you been in the litigation
8 department of Patton Boggs?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
10 facts not in evidence. No foundation.
11 THE WITNESS: We do not --
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Is there a litigation department at
14 Patton Boggs?
15 A Not formally. There is an informal
16 litigation group, and I am a member of that.
17 Q Who else is a member of that
18 litigation group, currently?
19 A It is not clear who are members.
20 People come in and come out. But I would say
21 approximately 20 or 30 of the partners
22 informally participate in the litigation
9
1 group.
2 Q Is your expertise district court
3 litigation?
4 A What do you mean by district court?
5 Federal district court?
6 Q Federal district court.
7 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous
8 with respect to the term expertise.
9 THE WITNESS: My activity has been
10 primarily in the federal courts, but not
11 necessarily the district court level.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Is your expertise more in civil
14 than criminal?
15 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
16 THE WITNESS: Mostly civil.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Or vice versa or the same?
19 A Mostly civil.
20 Q Did there come a point in time when
21 you took a leave of absence from Patton,
22 Boggs and Blow to become a member of the
10
1 White House staff?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
3 facts not in evidence, leave of absence.
4 THE WITNESS: No, that is not
5 correct.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you leave Patton Boggs to take
8 a job at the White House at some point?
9 A Yes.
10 Q When was that?
11 A In December of 1996.
12 Q You said you didn't take a leave of
13 absence. What, just generally speaking, were
14 the terms of your leaving Patton Boggs to
15 join the White House?
16 A I withdrew completely from the
17 partnership.
18 Q I don't mean to repeat things.
19 Just for purposes of clarity, it was December
20 of 1996?
21 A Exactly. It was December 9, 1996.
22 Q How is it that you came to leave
11
1 Patton Boggs and take a job at the White
2 House? What was the reason for doing that?
3 A I was given an offer by Mr. Quinn,
4 the then-White House counsel, and I accepted
5 the offer.
6 Q Up to December 9, 1996, had you
7 ever met President Bill Clinton?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When was the first time that you
10 met him?
11 A I can't recall specifically.
12 Q Just generally?
13 A It was probably in the fall
14 of 1970.
15 Q Under what circumstances did you
16 meet him?
17 A I believe it was in the context of
18 a political campaign then going on in
19 Connecticut, where I was living.
20 Q Which political campaign was that?
21 A I believe it was the Joe Duffy for
22 Senate campaign.
12
1 Q How was President Bill Clinton
2 involved in that campaign, if at all?
3 A I believe he was a volunteer in
4 that campaign.
5 Q You got to know him quite well?
6 A No, not quite well at all. Very --
7 Q How did get to know him?
8 A I think I was introduced to him
9 once or twice.
10 Q Did you have occasion to work with
11 him on that campaign?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q Other than that campaign, did you
14 have contact with him in later years, up to
15 the point of your taking the job in the White
16 House on December 9, 1996?
17 A Very infrequently.
18 Q Can you describe that generally for
19 us?
20 A I was a member of the Democratic
21 National Committee beginning in 1978. I
22 remember meeting him when he was Governor at
13
1 several Democratic National Committee
2 meetings.
3 Q What did you do for the DNC, as a
4 member, at that time?
5 A I don't know what you mean by what
6 did I do?
7 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q What was your role?
10 A My role? I was a member of the
11 full committee. I was a member at one point
12 of the executive committee. I was the
13 chairman of -- and an officer of the eastern
14 region caucus of the candidacy.
15 Q In all of those capacities, what
16 were your duties and responsibilities,
17 generally speaking?
18 A I didn't have really duties and
19 responsibilities. People who are on the DNC
20 are members who attend meetings.
21 I also served on the rules
22 committee, so I suppose I had a
14
1 responsibility to attend meetings and vote on
2 various rules pertaining to the 1988
3 convention.
4 But as a member, I was just a
5 participant. No real duties and
6 responsibilities.
7 Q How is it you that you came to
8 obtain those positions at the DNC?
9 A I was elected to serve as chairman
10 of the eastern region caucus and, therefore,
11 automatically a member of the executive
12 committee. I was appointed to be on the
13 rules committee by the then chairman.
14 Q When you say eastern district, you
15 mean eastern district of Maryland?
16 A If I said district I misspoke. The
17 eastern region caucus of the DNC encompasses
18 all of the states from Maine to, I think,
19 about Virginia.
20 Q Did you have to run to get elected
21 to that position?
22 A Yes.
15
1 Q So during your time at the DNC,
2 this began in 1978, what did it go up to in
3 terms of your duration of service?
4 A To 1992. Excuse me, 19 -- may I
5 correct the record? I was first elected to
6 the DNC in 1980. My last term ended in 1992.
7 So it was 1980 to 1992, not 1978.
8 Q During that period, were there any
9 other positions that you held for the DNC
10 that you haven't mentioned?
11 A To the best of my recollection, no.
12 Q It was during that period that you
13 got to work with Bill Clinton?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
15 facts not in evidence.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q I believe he just testified to it.
18 A I did not get to work with Bill
19 Clinton.
20 Q In what capacity did you come into
21 contact with him at the DNC?
22 A I believe attending a couple of
16
1 meetings. I shook his hand and said hello to
2 him, and that was it. I think I spoke to him
3 once or twice on social occasions,
4 receptions, that sort of thing.
5 Q Up to the present, were there other
6 occasions where you had contact with Bill
7 Clinton, up to the point of your White House
8 position?
9 A Up to the point of my White House
10 position, yes.
11 Q When was that?
12 A At various times during the
13 campaign of 1992, during 1991 and, in
14 particular, I had occasion to see him, talk
15 to him, shake his hand, speak to him on the
16 telephone.
17 Q Did you work with him or any of his
18 staff on any matters involving his election
19 campaign?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What were your duties and
22 responsibilities?
17
1 A I was a volunteer working on the
2 super delegates, of which I was one, as a
3 member of the DNC, meaning automatically
4 entitled to vote as a party or elected
5 official.
6 So I was a volunteer trying to
7 secure the support of other super delegates
8 at the '92 Democratic national convention.
9 Q During this time period leading up
10 to 1992, have you ever had occasion to meet
11 with Mrs. Hillary Clinton?
12 A During what time period?
13 Q The period leading up to 1992, when
14 you became a volunteer on behalf of the
15 Clinton campaign?
16 A Prior to '92?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Yes.
19 Q When did you first meet
20 Mrs. Clinton?
21 A What year?
22 Q Yes.
18
1 A I believe it would have been in the
2 fall of 1969.
3 Q How did you come to meet her?
4 A At law school.
5 Q Was she in law school at that time
6 along with you?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you meet Bill Clinton in law
9 school as well?
10 A No, I did not.
11 Q Did you get to know Mrs. Clinton in
12 law school?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you become a friend?
15 A I believed we were friends, yes.
16 Q Other than law school, have you had
17 contact with her since that time, up to 1992?
18 A Again, very infrequently. Same
19 answer as with then-Governor Clinton, I
20 believe. There were social occasions through
21 the Democratic National Committee where I had
22 occasion to say hello to her and shake her
19
1 hand.
2 Q During the time that you were in
3 law school at Yale, did you ever meet a
4 Steven Cohen?
5 A I believe the answer to that is
6 yes, but I am not sure, because there are
7 several Steven Cohens who seem to confuse me
8 as to if it was the same Steven Cohen that I
9 knew back then.
10 Q I am talking about the Steven Cohen
11 who is now professor at Georgetown?
12 A I am not sure if that is the same
13 Steven Cohen.
14 Q In the last six years, have you had
15 contact with a Steven Cohen?
16 A No.
17 Q Professor at Georgetown?
18 A No.
19 Q Are you aware of Steven Cohen,
20 professor at Georgetown, having contact with
21 others in the administration, the Clinton
22 administration?
20
1 A No, I am not.
2 Q Are you aware that Harold Ickes has
3 testified in this case that he had dinner
4 with Steven Cohen and discussed Linda Tripp?
5 A No.
6 Q But you do remember Steven Cohen at
7 Yale?
8 A I remember the name Steven Cohen,
9 quite frankly, but I am not sure it is
10 through the Yale connection. But I do
11 remember Steven Cohen while I was at Yale Law
12 School. But I don't think it was through
13 Yale Law School; it was through a political
14 campaign.
15 Q During the time you were at Yale,
16 did you participate in any political
17 activities with Hillary Clinton, any clubs
18 with her or anything like that?
19 A What is your question, "clubs"?
20 Q Anything. I am just trying to give
21 you a foundation to give me the background
22 information.
21
1 A I don't know what you mean by
2 "political activities." I believe she was
3 active in the Joe Duffy campaign during that
4 time period.
5 Q You were as well?
6 A I was active in the Joe Duffy
7 campaign, yes. But that was not my paid job.
8 I was a speechwriter for a gubernatorial
9 candidate, but I was working also for the Joe
10 Duffy campaign.
11 Q What contact, if any, did you have
12 with Mrs. Clinton after you graduated from
13 law school after 1992?
14 A The same answer that -- the same
15 question that you asked that had the same
16 answer.
17 Q Did you have any contact with her
18 in terms of attending parties where she was
19 present, or did you have contact in working
20 on political campaigns? That is what I am
21 looking for.
22 A I am happy to repeat what I
22
1 previously answered one more time.
2 I had infrequent contact. I can't
3 remember specifically, but as with
4 then-Governor Clinton, I believe it was as a
5 member of the DNC, at social functions or
6 meetings. Infrequently, I remember seeing
7 her and the Governor and saying hello to both
8 of them.
9 Q Did you work with her on any
10 matters, political or otherwise?
11 A When?
12 Q Up to 1992.
13 A No.
14 Q In 1992, when you were a volunteer,
15 did you work with the President or First Lady
16 up to the point of their election in November
17 of that year?
18 A I worked for the President as a
19 volunteer. I wouldn't say I worked with him,
20 then-Governor.
21 Q Who was it that you worked most
22 with during the 1992 campaigns?
23
1 A Her name is Nancy McFadden. She
2 was a paid employee in the Washington
3 campaign headquarters, and I was assigned to
4 work with her on the super delegate efforts.
5 Q Where is she located today?
6 A I think she is at the Department of
7 Transportation.
8 Q During the 1992 campaign, or
9 before, did you ever come to know James
10 Carville?
11 A No.
12 Q You didn't get to know him even
13 during 1992?
14 A No.
15 Q Did there come a later point in
16 time when you became acquainted with James
17 Carville?
18 A I think I have shaken his hand
19 maybe two or three times and said hello and
20 exchanged a couple of sentences with him two
21 or three times. I think I spoke to him once
22 or twice while I was at the White House, and
24
1 that is it.
2 Q While you were at the White House,
3 under what circumstances did you speak with
4 him once or twice?
5 A I think he called me to ask me a
6 couple of questions and I gave him --
7 regarding some press reports, and I gave him
8 some answers.
9 Q What was the subject matter of
10 those press reports?
11 A I can't remember. Something to do
12 with campaign finance.
13 Q Did it have anything to do with
14 Filegate or government files?
15 A No.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous,
17 the term Filegate.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Do you know what I mean by
20 Filegate, Mr. Davis?
21 A I am not sure, tell me what you
22 mean.
25
1 Q What do you understand Filegate to
2 mean? You define it.
3 A I think it has been used to
4 reference the obtaining of FBI files by the
5 White House at some point in 1996. Is that
6 what you mean by it?
7 Q Well, let's take for purposes of
8 this deposition that when I talk about
9 Filegate, it would be either the obtaining of
10 FBI files by the White House between 1993
11 and 1996, or the use of government files
12 generally with regard to gathering
13 information on individuals?
14 A All right.
15 MR. MILLS: I am going to object to
16 that as ambiguous. If you have questions,
17 specific questions that you wanted to ask
18 about the subject matter of obtaining or
19 using government files, please ask those
20 questions specifically so that the witness
21 will understand them.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we will try to
26
1 be as specific as possible, Mr. Mills, if you
2 would like to do any cross-examine at the end
3 of my direct.
4 MR. MILLS: I assert my right to
5 object on each question.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. That is fine.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q In 1992, when you worked on the
9 campaign, did you have any expectation of
10 being rewarded in any way?
11 A No.
12 Q Were you rewarded in any way after
13 that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How was that?
16 A He was elected.
17 Q That was just a psychological
18 reward.
19 A It was a very strong personal
20 reward. I was happy that he was elected.
21 Q Did the fact that you worked on
22 the 1992 campaign, in your opinion,
27
1 contribute to your ability to get a job at
2 the White House?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection. Requesting
4 opinion evidence. This is a fact witness.
5 His opinions are irrelevant to the subject of
6 your inquiry.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, I have no
8 objection to legitimate objection. I don't
9 think this is a trick question. We would
10 like to move it along with Mr. Davis. We are
11 not here in any way to make anything
12 difficult. We just want to get the
13 information.
14 MR. MILLS: That is fine. You can
15 ask questions allowed by the rules and by the
16 court's order, and I will put my
17 objections --
18 MR. KLAYMAN: The fact is,
19 witnesses are allowed to give opinions under
20 the rules of evidence.
21 MR. MILLS: This is not an expert
22 witness, this is a fact witness. If you want
28
1 to ask him about facts, ask him about facts.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Federal rules provide
3 it even with fact witnesses.
4 MR. MILLS: There will be
5 objections made as to any requests for
6 opinions.
7 THE WITNESS: What is the question?
8 Would you repeat the question? I forgot.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did your having worked on the 1992
11 campaign help you get a job at the White
12 House when you left Patton Boggs?
13 A I have no idea if that was part of
14 the motivation.
15 Q How did you get that job?
16 A Circumstances.
17 Q Were you recommended for it?
18 A I don't know whether I was
19 recommended for it.
20 Q What was the job that you took at
21 the White House?
22 A Special counsel to the President.
29
1 Q Did there come a point in time when
2 someone explained to you what the duties and
3 responsibilities of special counsel to the
4 President would be?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When was that?
7 A Excuse me. It would be late
8 November 1996, mid- to late November 1996.
9 Q How is it that you learned that
10 that job was open?
11 A I didn't learn it was open
12 specifically.
13 Q Did someone contact you?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Who?
16 A Mr. Quinn.
17 Q What did he say to you at the time?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. He is not
19 going to testify as to his conversation with
20 Mr. Quinn, except if he wants to testify as
21 to whether it was about the obtaining or
22 misuse of government files.
30
1 MR. KLAYMAN: To discuss what his
2 duties and responsibilities were?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: That's right. The
4 Court has already ruled on that question that
5 it wasn't relevant. You asked the same
6 question with respect to Mr. Begala and how
7 he obtained his job.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: It is a different
9 circumstance. He wasn't with the government
10 at the time. That was with regard to
11 presidential communication.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: It is also a
13 presidential communication.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: You claimed executive
15 privilege on -- not that it was sustained --
16 it was another basis that the Court made its
17 ruling.
18 I am just trying to get background
19 information. That is a bizarre objection.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think it is a
21 bizarre objection.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not allowed to
31
1 find out what you have been told as to what
2 this witness's duties and responsibilities
3 are?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: He can described what
5 his duties and responsibilities were, but he
6 is not going to tell you specifically his
7 conversation with Jack Quinn.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked a specific
9 question about duties and responsibility.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: My recollection of
11 the question was what the discussion was.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q What were you told by Jack Quinn in
14 terms of what your duties and
15 responsibilities would be?
16 MR. MILLS: There is an outstanding
17 objection on the table, and I believe there
18 is an instruction to the witness not to
19 answer with respect to privilege. That was
20 precisely to the question that you just
21 asked, Mr. Klayman. You have asked that
22 question twice now. It has been objected to
32
1 twice now.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: He can answer the
3 question with respect to duties and
4 responsibilities.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I will ask that this
6 be certified. We will undoubtedly going to
7 have to go down to the Court at some point
8 today. We will make a list of these various
9 questions, so I don't have to bother the
10 judge over and over again.
11 THE WITNESS: What is the question?
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q What were your duties and
14 responsibilities?
15 A As special counsel to the
16 President?
17 Q Yes.
18 A I was primarily responsible to deal
19 with the White House press corps on certain
20 issues. And by dealing with the press corps,
21 that meant answering their inquiries,
22 providing them factual information to the
33
1 best extent that I could, and to assist them
2 in doing their jobs.
3 Q Had you had any prior experience in
4 dealing with the press before you were
5 offered this position at the White House?
6 A Not as an employee, and not
7 officially, no.
8 Q But how about unofficially?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What experience had you had?
11 A In long years in politics, I had
12 come to know and understand and work with
13 members of the press corps who covered
14 national politics and local Maryland
15 politics.
16 Q Were you recommended for this
17 position at the White House by anyone?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q Did you fill out a formal
20 application?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q Did you submit any letters with
34
1 regard to your application, oral application?
2 A No, not with respect to an
3 application.
4 Q Was there any correspondence
5 exchanged between you and the White House
6 with regard to this position?
7 A I don't believe so.
8 Q Do you have a file that you kept in
9 terms of your trying to obtain, and
10 ultimately obtaining, this position in the
11 White House counsel's office?
12 A No.
13 Q Did you go through any kind of
14 interview process for this job?
15 A I don't know what you mean by
16 "interview."
17 Q Did you actually go over to the
18 White House and interview with Mr. Quinn?
19 A I had a meeting with and discussion
20 with Mr. Quinn before I accepted the job,
21 yes.
22 Q Was anyone else present at that
35
1 meeting?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Who was present?
4 A Bruce Lindsey, Cheryl Mills.
5 Q Anyone else?
6 A Excuse me, not Cheryl Mills. What
7 is her name? Kathy Wallman.
8 Q Who is Kathy Wallman?
9 A I believe then she was deputy White
10 House counsel.
11 Q Anyone else present?
12 A I don't believe so.
13 Q Was there more than one meeting?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Where did the other meetings taking
16 place?
17 A Mr. Quinn's office and
18 Ms. Wallman's office.
19 Q Did the individuals present, did
20 they vary in any way from one meeting to the
21 next?
22 A Yes. The only meeting that
36
1 Mr. Lindsey was at was the first meeting.
2 Q The others were present at the
3 subsequent meetings?
4 A I met alone with Mr. Quinn and
5 alone with Miss Wallman on a subsequent
6 occasion several days later.
7 Q During any of those meetings, was
8 Filegate discussed?
9 A As you previously defined it?
10 Q Yes.
11 A No.
12 Q During any of those meetings, were
13 the so-called Clinton scandals discussed by
14 subject matter?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 Relevancy.
18 MR. MILLS: Relevancy and
19 ambiguous.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I will narrow it, I
21 am just trying to lay a foundation.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you
37
1 mean by scandals.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Let's cite a few. Campaign finance
4 scandal?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
6 MR. MILLS: Objection.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Do you know what I am referring to?
9 A But I don't understand the word
10 "scandal" after the words "campaign finance."
11 Q Would you rather I use the word
12 "controversy"?
13 A That's okay.
14 Q I'll use the word "controversy." I
15 think Rick Kaplan said and instructed
16 everyone to use "controversy."
17 A I wouldn't know about Mr. Kaplan's
18 direction, but "controversy" is a neutral
19 word, yeah.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I am going to
21 instruct the witness not to disclose the
22 substance of his conversations in terms other
38
1 than what it wasn't about.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q We will use the term "controversy"
4 rather than "scandal"?
5 A Your question was?
6 Q Was the campaign finance
7 controversy discussed?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. I
9 instruct the witness not to answer.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Just subject matter.
11 I'm not asking for the actual discussions.
12 He can respond.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: He can't respond.
14 Wait a minute.
15 THE WITNESS: What is the rule if I
16 want to talk to my counsel off the record?
17 Is there a dead mike rule? How do I do this
18 if I want to consult with counsel --
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I would take a mike
20 off.
21 THE WITNESS: Just take it off?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: You do like Harold
39
1 Ickes and just throw it on the table with an
2 expletive deleted.
3 (Witness conferred with counsel)
4 MS. SHAPIRO: My instruction is the
5 following. I will allow him to testify as to
6 the subject matter, generally, of the entire
7 conversation. I am not going to allow him to
8 answer specifics with about what controversy
9 was or was not discussed, because that is
10 tantamount to revealing the substance of the
11 conversation.
12 So if you can answer the question
13 based on that instruction.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q I don't understand the instruction,
16 but let's try it over again.
17 Did you discuss during any of these
18 meetings the campaign finance controversy?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I object and instruct
20 the witness not to answer the question. As I
21 just explained, he is not to disclose the
22 specific topics of what was discussed. He
40
1 can discuss generally what the subject of the
2 meeting was.
3 THE WITNESS: The general subject
4 of the meeting was the areas that I would be
5 talking to the press corps about as part of
6 my job.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q What were those areas?
9 A Without regard to what was
10 discussed, what was my areas of
11 responsibilities?
12 Q Yes.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer that
14 question.
15 THE WITNESS: Without regard to any
16 discussions, my areas of responsibilities
17 were almost exclusively to talk to the press
18 about and to assist the press in writing
19 stories concerning campaign finance
20 allegations.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Were you also assigned the same
41
1 type of duties and responsibilities with
2 regard to the controversy known as
3 Travelgate?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous.
5 I don't know what Travelgate is, the use of
6 the term is.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Do you know what Travelgate is?
9 A I am afraid I have the same problem
10 with the word "gate" as I did earlier.
11 Q What do you understand Travelgate
12 to be?
13 A I remember a controversy over the
14 firing of travel office employees, and I
15 think I have seen the expression Travelgate
16 associated with that controversy.
17 Q Let's define it that way. Were
18 your duties and responsibilities related to
19 Travelgate as well in communicating with the
20 press?
21 A They were not.
22 Q Were they related in any way to FBI
42
1 files?
2 A They were not.
3 Q Were they related in any way to
4 Paula Corbin Jones and that controversy?
5 A They were not.
6 Q Were they related in any way to
7 controversy known as Whitewater?
8 A The answer is, they were not.
9 There were times when some of the issues I
10 dealt with related to Whitewater, but my
11 responsibility was primarily in the area of
12 campaign finance issues.
13 Q Were they related to any of the
14 other Clinton controversies?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
16 THE WITNESS: You will have to be
17 more specific. Which ones?
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Related in any way to the
20 activities of Commerce secretary Ron Brown?
21 A Maybe once or twice a few stories
22 relating to Mr. Brown. I had some calls
43
1 about it and I tried to assist reporters
2 about it. But that is very, very rare.
3 Q Related to any way the controversy
4 surrounding the death of Vince Foster?
5 A No.
6 Q Related in any way to the
7 controversy surrounding the White House
8 billing records?
9 A White House billing records?
10 Q You are aware that in the living
11 quarters of the White House, certain
12 documents that had been requested by the
13 independent counsel were found months after
14 they had been requested?
15 A I didn't know they were White House
16 billing records.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Rose law firm billing records?
20 A I had no responsibility for that.
21 Q Let's certify this whole line of
22 questioning. I take it you will instruct the
44
1 witness not to respond, Ms. Shapiro, on any
2 of the Clinton controversies, specifically in
3 terms of discussions with Jack Quinn and
4 others?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: I think you should
6 take it question by question. If there is a
7 way to work around objections, I am always
8 willing to do that.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I that is
10 disingenuous on your part, because I am just
11 trying to speed this along for everybody's
12 benefit.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: I can't possibly
14 anticipate what --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: You are saying if I
16 ask the same question that I asked with
17 Travelgate for any of these other
18 controversies I mentioned, your answer would
19 be different?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: What question would
21 you ask?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
45
1 Q Did you discuss FBI files with Jack
2 Quinn or anybody else during these
3 meetings --
4 MS. SHAPIRO: He will answer
5 questions about FBI files, and he will answer
6 the question about use or misuse of
7 government files generally.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Did you ever discuss with Jack
10 Quinn or anyone else during the meetings
11 leading up to your employment anything
12 dealing with FBI or government files?
13 A Never, not before, not during and
14 not since. With one -- let me kind of modify
15 that.
16 During the time that I was not at
17 the White House, I have had occasion to be on
18 a couple of television shows where the
19 subject of FBI files came up. On those
20 occasions, I did have some discussions on
21 those topics. But not when I went to the
22 White House.
46
1 Q When was it that you left the White
2 House to return to Patton Boggs and Blow?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection. The name of
4 the law firm is Patton Boggs.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Sorry about that.
6 When did it change?
7 MR. MILLS: I don't recall, but it
8 was before Mr. Davis left and before
9 Mr. Davis came back.
10 THE WITNESS: I left the White
11 House --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Is Mr. Blow still
13 there?
14 MR. MILLS: Mr. Blow is retired.
15 THE WITNESS: I left the White
16 House last January 30.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q January 30 of 1998?
19 A Yes.
20 Q As part of your duties and
21 responsibilities when you became a member of
22 the White House counsel's staff, it was to go
47
1 on television shows and talk about Clinton
2 controversies, correct?
3 A Would you repeat that question?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q As part of your duties and
7 responsibilities as special counsel in the
8 White House legal office, it was to go on
9 television shows and discuss the Clinton
10 controversies that I just mentioned?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection. You
12 mentioned a lot of controversies. Misstates
13 testimony. Mr. Davis has told you that many
14 of the controversies that you mentioned were
15 not within his areas of responsibility.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Please do not give
17 speaking objections. The Court admonished
18 that type of objection in this case.
19 MR. MILLS: I think I am entitled
20 to make my record on how you mischaracterize
21 testimony.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: If you continue to
48
1 make a record, Mr. Mills, I have no choice
2 but to move for appropriate relief.
3 MR. MILLS: I will make my record,
4 Mr. Klayman, and do whatever you feel you
5 must do.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: We will certainly do
7 that.
8 MR. MILLS: Thank you.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think that
10 should impede us from trying to work things
11 out amicably. Basically, I am advising you
12 that the Court on several occasions has asked
13 the parties not to make speaking objections.
14 MR. MILLS: I have always abided by
15 court orders, and I intend to do so here,
16 Mr. Klayman. If there is a controversy that
17 comes up here where you feel I am not, you
18 can take that to the Court, and we will
19 adjudicate it.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I am sorry you have
21 that attitude. Certify it.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
49
1 Q You can respond.
2 A You need to repeat the question.
3 Q As part of your duties and
4 responsibilities as special White House
5 counsel, were you authorized to go on
6 television shows and talk about the various
7 Clinton controversies I just mentioned?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection as
9 before.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Campaign finance, Filegate,
12 Travelgate, Whitewater?
13 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, objection.
14 Compound. Why don't you ask the question one
15 at a time?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
17 THE WITNESS: The answer is no.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q So the White House told you you
20 could not talk about any controversies other
21 than campaign finance when you went on TV?
22 A That is not correct either.
50
1 Q What was your authority?
2 A There were occasions where I was
3 permitted to -- as to one when it comes to
4 speak to the media on television, relating to
5 a particular issue, that it was judged to be
6 appropriate for me to speak about.
7 Q Your duties and responsibilities,
8 you were authorized to speak to the media
9 about various issues, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q The primary issue was campaign
12 finance?
13 A Correct.
14 Q But you were authorized to speak
15 about other Clinton controversies; correct?
16 A I don't believe that is correct.
17 Q So you are saying that when you
18 discussed Filegate on TV, that you didn't
19 have the authority of the White House to do
20 that?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
22 facts not in evidence. Foundation.
51
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q You can respond.
4 A You are not accurately describing
5 when I spoke about the subject of the file
6 controversy and when I was at the White
7 House.
8 The file controversy comments that
9 I made on television was before I was at the
10 White House.
11 Q So you never discussed FBI or
12 government files on television during the
13 period you were at the White House?
14 A I never did.
15 Q You are absolutely certain?
16 A I am not absolutely certain of it.
17 I believe I never did.
18 Q You were in power, however, to go
19 on television as part of your duties and
20 responsibilities?
21 A That was part of my duties and
22 responsibilities, yes.
52
1 Q Each time that you appeared on
2 television while you were working at the
3 White House, did you have to get specific
4 permission to do that?
5 A I wouldn't use the word
6 "permission," no.
7 Q How did it work? How did you
8 determine that you were allowed to go on a
9 particular TV show and speak?
10 A I think there was a general
11 consensus that would develop that we needed
12 to respond to press inquiries in public
13 rather than over the telephone. And after
14 some discussions, we came to a consensus.
15 Q Who did you have the discussions
16 with?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. We are
18 going to consult with counsel for a moment.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. MILLS: Let's go off the record
21 for a minute, please.
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
53
1 video record at 10:49.
2 (Recess)
3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
4 record at 10:51.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: The direction I
6 asserted is the only problem that we are
7 going to have is that the witness just
8 testified that while he was at the White
9 House, he didn't speak about FBI files or
10 misuse of government files. So there is
11 nothing more that is relevant to know about
12 the workings of his office and his television
13 appearances.
14 So I think that the question that
15 you have asked is already outside of the
16 Court's order.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: First of all, you
18 don't get to determine issues of relevancy.
19 The Court has made that clear. You cannot
20 instruct a witness not to answer on the basis
21 of relevancy.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: The Court has,
54
1 itself, defined the relevancy issues, and I
2 can instruct him not to answer based on the
3 Court's ruling. That would be Rule 30 of the
4 Federal rules.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't do that,
6 because as we discussed many times, we are
7 entitled to understand his authority, what
8 his position was at the White House. These
9 are issues that deal with his role at the
10 White House.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: You asked that
12 question, and he has answered it.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: That is the basis of
14 these questions. Whether or not he ever
15 discussed Filegate or not is not relevant.
16 We are entitled to get into that aspects of
17 his duties and responsibility.
18 If you instruct him not to answer,
19 you do it at very, very great risk. I am
20 asking you not to do that.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: I think we are going
22 to have a problem, then, because the Court's
55
1 order is very clear, and it has reiterated
2 its order several times now that the issues
3 on the table are the FBI files matter, or
4 generally, the misuse of government files.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: The Court also ruled
6 that we are entitled to get into background.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think there
8 has been a ruling about background. I think
9 that your obligation is to tie it into the
10 issues that are relevant.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the
12 question?
13 (The reporter read the record as
14 requested.)
15 MR. KLAYMAN: That establishes who
16 he was in contact with, who he works with.
17 That is relevant.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Why don't you ask him
19 who he works with?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand
21 the objection of finding out who he is in
22 contact with in terms of arranging for his TV
56
1 appearances. Why does there need to be a
2 fight about that?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Because there is an
4 order defining the scope of relevant issues
5 on the table. You are not entitled to go
6 into the workings of counsel's office. That
7 is not the subject of this lawsuit.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: It is the subject of
9 this lawsuit. The White House counsel's
10 office is deeply involved in Filegate.
11 MR. MILLS: The testimony of record
12 shows that Mr. Davis, while he was at the
13 White House, had nothing to do with the FBI
14 files, the use or obtaining or illegal use of
15 obtaining FBI files. So, Mr. Klayman, I
16 would join in the objection.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not going to
18 waste any time here. We will just make a
19 list and go down to Judge Lamberth's
20 (phonetic) at the appropriate time. This is
21 what you want to do; that is fine.
22 The Court has made certain rules.
57
1 The Court has issued certain sanctions. We
2 will take it up with the Court.
3 MR. MILLS: We will also take up
4 with the Court, Mr. Klayman. I will put on
5 the record that I consider this, as
6 Mr. Davis's counsel, as subject to the
7 objection we already put on the record. This
8 is outside of the scope, of the permissible
9 scope of your inquiries.
10 I will seek sanctions against you
11 as well for inquiries outside of the scope.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: We will seek
13 sanctions for your seeking sanctions.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me make it
15 clear --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Of which there is a
17 case law, as you know, as litigators.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I want to make it
19 clear we don't object to you asking about who
20 he works with generally. What we object to
21 is you trying to narrow into specific issues
22 that are outside of the Court's order by
58
1 asking specifically who he spoke to about
2 specific issues, which is what the question
3 was.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Unfortunately this is
5 no aspersion to Mr. Davis, but there have
6 been witnesses in this case who, when you ask
7 a question one way, you get one answer and
8 when you ask it a different way, you get a
9 different answer.
10 The best way to get an
11 understanding of what his duties and
12 responsibilities are is to see who Mr. Davis
13 works with on a routine basis.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: He can answer who he
15 works with generally. I just said I don't
16 object to that question. I object to you
17 trying to narrow in on the work product of
18 the counsel's office.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to know in
20 what capacity. Let the record also reflect
21 to the extent we get in these discussions and
22 to the extent that you hold this as our use
59
1 of time, we will be asking for an extension
2 of this deposition accordingly.
3 MR. MILLS: Let the record also
4 reflect the Court already said that these
5 depositions -- this deposition and all
6 depositions in this case -- are limited to
7 six hours of testimony.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: But when get
9 objections like this which are unnecessary
10 and go round and round, in my view, it is
11 only attended to run off the clock. This
12 Justice Department does this routinely.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: We are entitled to
14 object, like every counsel.
15 MR. MILLS: That is all part of the
16 time.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. Certify
18 it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q During the period that you were at
21 the White House, who have you worked with?
22 A I am sorry. I meant to turn this
60
1 off.
2 Q Is that the President calling?
3 A I just turned it off. I am sorry.
4 The only thing I am nervous about -- can we
5 go off the record? I have a little baby.
6 Should I turn it off?
7 Q If you want to take the call, that
8 is fine. If you want to identify who it is,
9 if you are nervous about it, I understand
10 that. Want to go off the record and call?
11 A No. How much longer before our
12 first recess?
13 MR. MILLS: Ten minutes. Okay,
14 continue. What was your question?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q My question was, who did you work
17 with on a routine basis during the period you
18 were with the White House?
19 A I work with senior officials in the
20 White House counsel's office and in the west
21 wing.
22 Q Who are they?
61
1 A You want everybody?
2 Q Yes.
3 A I can't promise you I will remember
4 everybody, but I will tell you as many as I
5 possibly remember. Adam Goldberg and Tess
6 Johnson were my two deputies.
7 Q What were their duties and
8 responsibilities?
9 A Assisting me in working with the
10 press.
11 Lanny Breuer, who was a special
12 counsel to the President in charge of
13 investigations.
14 Q What investigations?
15 A Any investigations taking place by
16 the Congressional committees on campaign
17 finance and other possible issues.
18 Q Including FBI and government files?
19 A I do not know whether he was
20 involved in that.
21 Q He worked for you, didn't he?
22 A No. In fact, I reported to him on
62
1 the campaign finance issues.
2 Q Who else?
3 A Various members of the team that
4 worked for Lanny Breuer. Do you want me to
5 name those names?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Dimitri Nionakis.
8 Q How is that spelled?
9 A N-i-o-n-a-k-i-s. Michael
10 Imbroscio, I-m-b-r-o-s-c-i-o, I believe.
11 Q These are all people in
12 Mr. Breuer's team?
13 A Right. Karen Popp, P-o-p-p.
14 Cheryl Mills, Mr. Ruff, and Mr. Quinn, when
15 he was there. Mike McCurry and his various
16 associates in the press office. And those
17 would be the primary ones I would work with.
18 Q Was there anyone that you worked
19 with in the President's office?
20 A What do you mean by "the
21 President's office"?
22 Q The President?
63
1 A I know the President, but what do
2 you mean, his "office"?
3 Q Was anybody in his inner office
4 that you worked with, that you had routine
5 contact with?
6 A What do you mean by "inner office"?
7 Q In and around his office suite?
8 A In and around his office suite.
9 Q Did you work with the chief of
10 staff, for instance, on a regular basis?
11 A Okay. No, not the chief of staff.
12 The deputy chief of staff, John Podesta, I
13 would have worked with on a regular basis.
14 Q What was the nature of your contact
15 with Mr. Podesta?
16 A Regular meetings during the
17 campaign finance hearings.
18 Q During these?
19 A Prior to and during.
20 Q During these meetings, I am not
21 asking for the specifics, but generally, why
22 did these meetings take place?
64
1 MR. MILLS: Objection. Relevancy
2 to this case.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You can respond.
5 A To plan for the coming
6 Congressional hearings, or during the
7 hearings, to discuss the press inquiries
8 associated with the hearings or the campaign
9 finance issues and my responses to those
10 inquiries.
11 Q We never finished this line of
12 questioning. Was there any procedure at the
13 White House before you did a television
14 appearance that you would have to go through
15 to clear your doing the television
16 appearance?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: One moment, please.
18 That is the same question that we objected to
19 earlier.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go off the
21 record, because we don't want our time used.
22 We are not going to count this as our time.
65
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
2 video record at 11:03.
3 (Discussion off the record)
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Back on the record.
5 VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please.
6 We are back on the video record at 11:04.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: He described
8 general