1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Afternoon Session -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Wednesday, May 26, 1999 12 Deposition of 13 DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 3:24 p.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary 20 public in and for the District of Columbia, 21 when were present on behalf on the respective 22 parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE ROBERT CORRY, ESQUIRE 4 PAUL ORFANADES, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 6 (202) 646-5172 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 8 Office of the President: 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 ALLISON GILES, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, D.C. 20004 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE 16 NATALIA LEONS, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5175 6 On behalf of The White House: 7 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 9 (202) 456-5079 10 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 11 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 12 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 13 (212) 403-1000 14 On behalf of Deponent: 15 DAVID S. COHEN, ESQUIRE Miller Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, L.L.P. 16 2555 M Street N.W. Washington. D.C. 20037-1302 17 (202) 833-6503 18 ALSO PRESENT: 19 David Black Thomas Fitton Joseph Nelson Cate Gerry Greenberg 20 Billy Dale Ralph T. Maughan John Dreylinger M. Dennis Sculimbrene 21 22 250 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 3 CONTINUED 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on 5 video record at 3:24. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Before we went on to the 8 confidential record, we had taken you up, I 9 believe it was, to the period after you 10 worked for the DNC Convention, and after that 11 period of time, did you then get a job for 12 the Clinton-Gore campaign, the 1992 campaign? 13 A I'm sorry. After the Clinton 14 convention? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I did. 17 Q Was there anything in between that 18 time, any employment? 19 A You're talking about prior to me 20 getting a job as an advance person? I worked 21 on a project in Angola with Jonas Savimbi in 22 a first UN election. We went over to train 251 1 their former guerrilla solders, who are now 2 in election campaign strategy supervised by 3 the UN, and I specifically trained on 4 rallies, organizing rallies. 5 Q When did you work for Jonas 6 Savimbi? 7 A Actually, we worked for a guy named 8 Steve White. It's an oil company out of 9 Texas, and he brought us in to help Jonas 10 Savimbi with his election. 11 Q Did you travel to Angola? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q How long were you there? 14 A I think a couple weeks. 15 Q Who did you work with, in addition 16 to that person? 17 A James Smith, Nick Friendly, and one 18 other gentleman, whose name escapes me. 19 Q Where is Mr. Smith? 20 A He's at Smith Dawson on K Street. 21 I think it's 1100 K Street. 22 Q It was after that point in time 252 1 that you took your job working on the 2 Clinton-Gore campaign in 1992? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q How did you get that job? 5 A Through friends that were already 6 working on a campaign. 7 Q What friends were they? 8 A Iris Burnett, Mike Jones, those are 9 the two main people. 10 Q Had you identified Mike Jones 11 before? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q Who was Mike Jones? 14 A He was an advance person for 15 Senator Gore. 16 Q Had you also gotten to know him 17 when you worked for Senator Worth? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you approach the Clinton-Gore 20 campaign for a job? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 253 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I 2 called them when I was back in the country 3 and said I'd be interested in doing some 4 advance. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Were you ultimately hired to do 7 advance work? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q What were your duties and 10 responsibilities in terms of doing advance 11 work for the Clinton-Gore '92 campaign? 12 A I would travel to a city with a 13 team of five or six people. My role 14 primarily was to build large rallyes and 15 crowds, visuals we call them, and I would go 16 out and recruit individuals to help me 17 recruit individuals. 18 Q You previously testified that 19 during the period you worked on the campaign, 20 you got to meet James Carville, correct? 21 A In passing, yes, sir. 22 Q You had some conversations with 254 1 him, correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q As testified to previously. 6 A I don't think I said conversations. 7 I think we bumped into each other and 8 exchanged pleasantries, hi, how are you kind 9 of stuff. 10 Q It was on that '92 campaign that 11 you originated the Chicken George operation? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: No, that's incorrect. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Who thought of that one? 17 A I believe that was Iris Burnett. 18 Q Do you know who played Chicken 19 George? 20 A Many different people. 21 Q You included? 22 A No. 255 1 Q You never appeared as a chicken? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q During the time that you worked on 4 the Clinton-Gore campaign, you were not 5 responsible for reviewing background security 6 files, were you? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Received no training to that 9 effect? 10 A That's correct, sir. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q But you were one of the people that 14 actually recruited the chickens, correct? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: Actually, no. The 18 chickens were made known to me and I deployed 19 them. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q How did you deploy them? 22 A They would come in their 256 1 non-chicken attire, and we would go to a 2 public space where Mr. Bush would be 3 speaking, and this was done because Mr. Bush 4 at that time had decided not to debate 5 Mr. Clinton, and it was done in fun, and at 6 one point, according to Ms. Burnett, Mr. Bush 7 gave a note to one of the chickens saying 8 something like, you guys are doing a good 9 job. 10 He took it to be half-hearted 11 politics. He doesn't seem too upset by the 12 whole thing. I mean, they weren't causing 13 fistfights and stuff like that. They weren't 14 heckling him. 15 Q Who were the people you worked with 16 most closely on the campaign? 17 A Well, there's that name Iris 18 Burnett again. I pretty much worked for her. 19 I have to tell you I'm really bad with names, 20 and I met a lot of people that I worked with 21 like one time. 22 Q Had you ever worked with someone by 257 1 the name of Casey? 2 A Can you give me a first name? 3 Q Dennis Casey? 4 A I know who Dennis Casey is. 5 Q Who is he? 6 A He's the individual that lied 7 before the U.S. Congress. I might add not 8 under oath about me being thrown out of the 9 state of Pennsylvania and never working on 10 the campaign again, neither of which 11 happened. 12 I worked on the campaign as 13 everyone knows, till the very end, and I went 14 back to Pennsylvania three times. 15 Q So you're saying Mr. Casey lied to 16 Congress during its Filegate investigation? 17 A If in fact -- what was reported 18 that he said is correct, yes. 19 Q Why do you think Mr. Casey lied? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 21 of the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. It's 258 1 certainly not correct. Maybe he's confused. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Who else did you work with on the 4 Clinton-Gore campaign most closely? 5 A A fellow named Jim Denbo, Steve 6 Bachar -- 7 Q How's that spelled? 8 A I believe it's spelled B-a-c-h-a-r. 9 Q Where is Mr. Bachar today? 10 A I think he's in Washington. 11 Q Do you know where he works? 12 A I think he heads up McDonald's 13 Russia campaign during the Ronald McDonald 14 stuff abroad, and he's a law student at 15 Georgetown. 16 Q Has he ever worked at The White 17 House? 18 A No. He's been a lead advance 19 person, which means he's one of the four 20 people assigned to the President officially 21 so -- 22 Q Who else did you work with most 259 1 closely? 2 A I'd say that's about it. 3 Q During the campaign, you met the 4 President, Mr. Clinton? 5 A Briefly. 6 Q Where did you meet him? 7 A Campaign stops. 8 Q Under what circumstances did you 9 meet him? 10 A Where's my damn diet Coke? It's 11 hot in here. Where are we going? What are 12 we going to do? Who are you? 13 Q You told him who you were? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q So he knew who you were? 16 A No. 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. I 20 think that's why he asked me who I was. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q After you told him, he knew who you 260 1 were? 2 A He asked me that a couple times. 3 Q How many times did he ask you that? 4 A Few times. 5 Q 20? 6 A No, but several. I think he knew 7 who I was. He just couldn't remember names 8 sometimes. 9 Q What else did you do for him during 10 the campaign? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I helped out with the 14 election night victory party. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What did you do for that? 17 A I co-produced the event at the 18 State House, which is where they came out and 19 thanked the American people. 20 Q Who was your co-producer? 21 A A guy named Redmond Walsh. 22 Q Where is he today? 261 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Where was he then? 3 A I think he was out of L. A. 4 Q I take it you worked with Harry and 5 Susan Bloodworth Thomasons? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say I 9 worked with them. They were in charge of the 10 even, and I was an element of the event. I 11 took direction from them. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You got to know both Harry and 14 Susan? 15 A Actually, I did not get to know 16 them very well at all. I didn't get to know 17 Ms. Thomason at all, and I got to know Harry 18 a little bit better but not much. 19 Q What specifically did you do with 20 Harry? 21 A Basically, they wanted to know if I 22 was screwing up their events with the 262 1 security requirements, and I assured them 2 that the security requirements were important 3 and conveyed to them in such a way that it 4 was good for everybody so that people 5 wouldn't get crushed or events -- if there 6 was something wrong, there would be a proper 7 safety exit, and they agreed in the long run 8 that we had to do it the Secret Service way. 9 Q Well, at that point you didn't know 10 the Secret Service way? 11 A Yes, I did, actually. I spent a 12 great deal of time -- in fact, I had an 13 agent, Anthony Zotto, assigned to me at the 14 inaugural, who actually worked in my office, 15 who spent a great length of time each day 16 interfacing with me and various law 17 enforcement elements of D.C., to include 18 military, seven or eight different 19 metropolitan agencies, the FBI, CIA. 20 He basically ran interference 21 saying, look, this is the kid that has got 22 the job, but -- and I know we've done this 263 1 four times for four different times, this is 2 what we're going to do and he'll go along 3 with that kind of thing and they did. 4 Q What did they tell you to do? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Wait a minute. Are 6 we talking about some sort of security 7 measurements? 8 THE WITNESS: Very general. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Keep it very 10 general. 11 THE WITNESS: It was important that 12 there was a procedure set in place that was 13 time tested over many different years that if 14 we didn't deviate from it, everything would 15 go fine. We had to fight with our event 16 people a little bit because they of course 17 wanted to do big splashy things, but we toned 18 it down a bit, and in the long run we 19 listened to their advice as much as we could 20 and we had a successful event largely because 21 of them. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 264 1 Q Well, there was nothing that you 2 did that concerned itself with background 3 security checks or files on that campaign? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: Actually, that's not 7 correct. At that point we started doing name 8 checks, and the FBI supplied the information 9 to us, so I saw the actual name check at that 10 point. So I knew what a name check was. I 11 knew what to look for. 12 I got a lot more introduction then 13 to the necessity of getting the information 14 from individuals to the appropriate law 15 enforcement people so they could help us 16 identify any potential problems. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What was a name check? What is 19 that? 20 A They ran their name, date of birth, 21 Social Security number, and they checked 22 various indices for arrests, convictions, 265 1 warrants, outstanding warrants. 2 Q Was there a report that you had 3 access to? 4 A I believe so. 5 Q Did you review reports of people's 6 name checks? 7 A Well, like I said, it would only 8 have something if there was something there, 9 and less than a tiny percent -- I can't even 10 think of the fraction it would be, most of 11 them were fine. They didn't have any 12 information. 13 Q But you we were involved in 14 acquiring the information for the name 15 checks? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: No. That was the job 19 of -- I believe it was actually the Secret 20 Service that did it, not the FBI. It was 21 similar to what they do at The White House. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 266 1 Q Other than providing the name of 2 the individual, you really didn't do anything 3 with regard to the name checks? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, we did if the 7 person had a problem, we would report it to 8 the administrator that there was a problem. 9 The individual would be consulted with. I 10 don't know if there was a counsel on staff 11 there, but there was someone on staff that 12 would say it's been brought to our attention 13 that there's a problem in your past from 14 Paducca, and the person would go, oh, yeah. 15 Usually it would be resolved by them leaving. 16 MR. COHEN: One second, 17 Mr. Klayman. 18 (Witness conferred with counsel) 19 THE WITNESS: We're still talking 20 about the inaugural, sir? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 22 MR. COHEN: You're talking about 267 1 the inaugural, not the campaign? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Campaign. 3 MR. COHEN: Because there's a 4 confusion. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q So this testimony applies to the 7 inaugural? 8 A Nothing to do like that during the 9 campaign, strictly advance. 10 Q You didn't do anything like that on 11 the campaign, only on the inaugural? 12 A Correct. 13 Q If the individual had a background 14 of drug usage, that person would have to 15 leave, correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. I don't understand whether 18 we're talking about the campaign or the 19 inaugural at this point? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: The inaugural. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q If the name check turned up drug 268 1 usage, the person would have to leave, 2 correct? 3 A The only way it would turn up drug 4 use is if the person was arrested. It 5 wouldn't turn up because like the FBI's work 6 would talk about so and so said they saw this 7 person or the person themselves would offer 8 it. A name check would only list if in fact 9 they had been arrested and/or convicted. 10 Q If the arrest concerned drugs, the 11 person would have to leave? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: It wasn't up to me. 15 I don't know to tell you the truth. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q But you understood that to be the 18 practice, correct? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 22 that at all. I don't know what happened. 269 1 BY BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So drug usage was little to any 3 concern to people at the inaugural? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I did not say that. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you saying that there was never 10 anyone that was asked to leave on the basis 11 of drug usage or an arrest related to drug 12 usage? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm saying I'm not 16 aware of it. It wouldn't be something that 17 at that level someone would have consulted 18 with me. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q In fact when you were at The White 21 House drug usage was never a concern to 22 anyone, would it? 270 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: That's absolutely not 4 true. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Was it a great concern? 7 A I think it was a very serious 8 concern for both the Secret Service, FBI, and 9 The White House. I realize it took time for 10 The White House to get on the program, but 11 with the Secret Service and the FBI's hard 12 work, The White House developed a good 13 program -- a good screening program to get on 14 top of that. 15 Q In fact, The White House really 16 didn't care whether people had used drugs, 17 correct? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form, 20 object to lack of relevance. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Correct? 271 1 A I know that's not true. 2 Q So the White House did care that 3 people had used drugs? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: The White House would 7 care if there was a drug issue, and I know 8 that if people were caught somehow either 9 through drug testing or otherwise, that they 10 were dismissed. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q During the time that you worked on 13 the campaign, you met Hillary Clinton? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a trick 17 question. 18 THE WITNESS: I can't recall a 19 specific event where she and I were 20 introduced. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q But you were introduced, correct? 272 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 2 form. 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: As I said, I can't 5 recall a specific event where she and I were 6 introduced. I recall being at the same event 7 with hundreds if not thousands of other 8 people, but I don't recall someone saying, 9 Mrs. Clinton, this is Craig Livingstone or 10 vice versa. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You had talked with Mrs. Clinton 13 during the campaign? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 15 form. 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: Only in the course of 18 my advance work at the State House. You're 19 going to be going outside with your husband a 20 few minutes. The Gores are in the holding 21 room. Would you like something to drink? 22 The stage is about 20 feet long. You're 273 1 going to walk out stage right, proceed stage 2 left. We want you to stand out there and do 3 a big wave with all the families and need you 4 to come back inside. That's about the whole 5 conversation I had with Hillary Clinton 6 during the campaign. 7 Q During the campaign you talked to 8 representatives of Hillary Clinton? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I probably talked to 12 people on her staff or connected to her 13 staff. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You worked with people on her staff 16 or connected to her staff? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: With the purpose of 20 advance, yes. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Who did you work with? 274 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. COHEN: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: Kelly -- I can't 4 remember her last name. Kelly Craighead. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Craighead? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q How's that spelled? 9 A Just like it sounds Craighead. 10 Q One word? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Where is she today? 13 A I believe she is the deputy 14 scheduler for The White House. 15 Q Have you talked to Kelly Craighead 16 in the last three years? 17 A No. 18 Q What did Ms. Craighead ask you to 19 do? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Assist her with 275 1 events for Mrs. Clinton involving advance, 2 everything from getting her bags out of the 3 car to getting her a glass of water. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You had done this on a number of 6 occasions during the campaign? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: Not a number but a 10 few. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q What do you mean by a few? 13 A Two to three. 14 Q What other representative of 15 Hillary Clinton asked you to do something 16 during the campaign? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. COHEN: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: I can't recall. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q But there were other people? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 276 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I said I can't 3 recall. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q No. I'm asking you whether you 6 can't recall that you did anything or whether 7 you can't recall the names of the people. 8 Which is it? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: It's both. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But just generally speaking you had 13 been asked to do a number of tasks by 14 Mrs. Clinton's representatives during the '92 15 campaign? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: Involving advance, 20 events, getting from places A to B. That's 21 it? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 277 1 Q These people expressed their 2 satisfaction with your job performance, 3 correct? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q They were happy with your job 9 performance, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You understood that they conveyed 12 that happiness back to Mrs. Clinton, correct? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I have no way of 16 knowing that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Now you met with Mrs. Clinton more 19 than once during the campaign. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form, 22 mischaracterizes the record. 278 1 MR. COHEN: Join. 2 THE WITNESS: I believe I said that 3 I met with her once that I can recall at the 4 election night victory. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q But you may have met with her other 7 times you just can't recall right now? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 MR. COHEN: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: Only with advance, 12 with events. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So the answer's yes. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I would agree with 18 you. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You did exchange words with 21 Mrs. Clinton more than once? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 279 1 Mischaracterizes the record. 2 THE WITNESS: I have no memory of 3 that, none whatsoever. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You did have contact with 6 Mrs. Clinton or her representatives during 7 the inaugural, correct? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q What contacts did you have? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 11 answered. 12 THE WITNESS: She was obviously 13 very concerned about the events and the image 14 that the inaugural would convey and that she 15 wanted it not to be a closed-in function only 16 for Washington's elite. She wanted as many 17 people from outside the beltway to be there, 18 and she wanted events that people could 19 afford. 20 She wanted events that security was 21 not obtrusive but was safe. In all, I would 22 say that her interest in the inaugural was 280 1 one in which -- of a good patron. She took 2 her responsibilities making sure that it was 3 a fun and safe event for all people. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q She told you this directly, 6 correct? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, she didn't. She 9 told that to a group amassed at the inaugural 10 headquarters. I think it was about a hundred 11 people. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Had you ever had a conversation 14 with her directly, during the inaugural? 15 A I remember a very brief 16 conversation with her assistant, Kelly 17 Craighead, about getting Mrs. Kelly and her 18 friends some hotel rooms or helping them out. 19 That was the President's mom. 20 Q Do you know whether your lawyers, 21 Mr. Cohen or Mr. Turk or people working in 22 that office, have ever talked to the lawyers 281 1 of Mrs. Clinton? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A I have no knowledge of that. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I am sorry. We 7 just went off record. The tape just stopped. 8 I don't know why. Off at 3:48. 9 (Recess) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on 11 video record at 4:00 p.m. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: What was the last 13 question? 14 (The reporter read the record as 15 requested.) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I apologize. We 17 have to stop again. This tape is defective. 18 (Discussion off the record) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q The question was whether your 21 lawyers have ever spoken to Mrs. Clinton's 22 lawyers. 282 1 MR. COHEN: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know. We had 3 a conference out in the hallway. I don't 4 know if they spoke to each other at that time 5 or not. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you know whether they ever spoke 8 before then? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Are you paying your legal fees? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. Relevance. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I'm doing my best to pay my fees. 15 Q Is anyone paying them on your 16 behalf? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 18 THE WITNESS: I had a legal trust 19 for some time, but it was dissolved some time 20 ago. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you use those moneys to pay for 283 1 your legal fees? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Yes? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Did any donors to the Democratic 6 party or the Clinton-Gore campaigns make 7 contributions to that trust? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection as to the 9 form of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't know, sir. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did Nathan Denbo donate money to 13 that trust? 14 A I don't have the records in front 15 of me. 16 Q Are those records public? 17 A I believe we submitted those in 18 response to a subpoena, didn't we, the legal 19 firm dollars supplied in response to a 20 subpoena? 21 MR. COHEN: We produced what was 22 available. 284 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You submitted them to the 3 independent counsel? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: May I confer with 7 counsel for a moment? 8 MR. COHEN: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Off the record. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video 11 record at 4:04, we're back on the video 12 record at 4:04. 13 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. You can 14 answer the question. Are we on the record? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I did not know. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Was the person who administered to 19 that legal defense fund a Walton Chalmers? 20 A That's correct, sir. 21 Q That's one of the people you 22 identified earlier, correct? 285 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Who asked Mr. Chalmers to set up 3 that legal defense fund? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 8 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 9 Exhibit 8. 10 (Livingston Deposition Exhibit 11 No. 8 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q This is a document with a facsimile 15 cover page, Smith, Dawson, and Andrews of 16 August 3, 1995, to Craig Livingstone, 17 affiliation personnel security by Wally 18 Chalmers. 19 I says on the fax cover page, 20 "Mailed 1:05 today, just a start. I'm on 21 break from August 5 to 14. Call me at 22 603-279-5820 if you need anything." and 286 1 there's a letter attached, Bates number 2 LIV-0557. 3 Does this document evidence an 4 effort by Mr. Chalmers and others listed 5 below, trustees James Smith, Raymond 6 Jacobson, and Susan Borecki, B-o-r-e-c-k-i, 7 to set up and administer a legal defense fund 8 on your behalf? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What is 12 your question? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Does this letter evidence the legal 15 defense fund that you're talking about? 16 A I believe it does, yes. 17 Q How much money did you raise? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: Not much. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Roughly speaking. 287 1 A I think under 15,000. 2 Q At the time this letter was 3 written, the legal defense fund was in 4 operation? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't think it was 7 in operation, no. I think this was 8 proposing. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q It was in operation shortly 11 thereafter? 12 A I think that's correct. 13 Q Shortly thereafter within the next 14 few weeks? 15 A I don't know, sir, to be specific. 16 Q Roughly speaking? 17 A Roughly speaking would be fine? 18 Q Roughly speaking -- 19 A Roughly speaking would be fine? 20 Q That's correct. 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 288 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Roughly speaking, within the next 3 few weeks, moneys started to be received by 4 that legal defense fund, correct? 5 A I'm sorry, sir? 6 Q During those next few weeks, legal 7 moneys started to be received by your legal 8 defense fund? 9 A I don't know exactly when, so I'd 10 rather not say. I don't have the records in 11 front of me so I'm not going to say. 12 Q In and around that period? 13 A Again, I don't have the records so 14 I can't say. 15 Q Shortly thereafter? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. Asked and answered. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A I would suspect within a few months 21 would be correct. 22 Q This letter, which is the second 289 1 page, Bates number LIV-0557, which is the 2 letter which was sent out to solicit the 3 funds for your legal defense fund, correct? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: It's a draft 7 apparently. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q But a letter like this was 10 ultimately sent out soliciting the moneys for 11 the legal defense fund? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Now, on or about August 3, 1995, 16 you still worked at The White House, correct? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q You were director of the Office of 19 Personnel Security, correct? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q You were aware at that time, were 22 you not, that federal government officials 290 1 could not solicit money from the public, 2 correct? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection calls for 6 legal conclusion. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can answer. 9 A I don't know that I was aware of 10 that. 11 Q Has anyone ever told you that 12 Federal Government officials can't solicit 13 money from the American public? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. Misstates the law. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever sought an opinion to 21 that effect? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 291 1 of the question. It's vague and ambiguous, 2 unintelligible. 3 THE WITNESS: As I recall, I asked 4 permission how to set it up of my friends 5 that contacted me. They wanted to help me 6 out. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Your friends asked permission from 9 you? 10 A Correct, and I asked someone at The 11 White House if it was acceptable to allow 12 them to do it. 13 Q Who did you ask? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Hillary Clinton? 16 A Absolutely not. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q One of the entities that donated to 20 your legal defense fund was the Lipo Group? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 292 1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 2 seeing them on the list. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q James Reoti (phonetic)? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 7 seeing that. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q John Wang? 10 A I don't remember seeing that. Do 11 you have evidence to show me that that's a 12 fact? 13 Q Anybody from Asia? 14 A Are you reading into the record 15 here that that happened? 16 Q Anybody from Asia? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question and object to the lack of 19 foundation for the last four questions. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Anybody from Asia? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to that 293 1 question also on the grounds that it's 2 offensive. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Why is that 6 offensive? 7 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. Answer the 8 question. 9 THE WITNESS: That question hasn't 10 been asked. He said anybody from Asia. I 11 don't know what that means. It's not a 12 question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Anybody from the region of the 15 world known as Asia? 16 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: Did what? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Donated to your legal defense fund? 21 A I don't believe so. 22 Q Charlie Tree? 294 1 A I don't believe so. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Maggie Williams donated money to 6 your legal defense fund, correct? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I believe she did, 10 very small amount. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q How much did she donate? 13 A I think it was $50. 14 Q At the time she was working for the 15 First Lady, Hillary Clinton? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A You know, I think you've got 21 something there. I think the American people 22 would rise up and say that's the proof that's 295 1 needed. 50 bucks. 2 Q So the answer's yes? 3 A Hardly. 4 Q She was working for Mrs. Clinton, 5 correct? 6 A I don't know if she was at the 7 time. 8 Q You took that as a show of support 9 from Mrs. Clinton, didn't you? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. 13 Maggie's a nice person. I'm tired of you 14 putting words in my mouth. If you have a 15 question to ask me, ask me a question. If 16 you're going to read things into the record 17 for the point of leaking out to people later, 18 I'm sure the judge will take that up with 19 you. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I'm entitled to ask leading 22 questions, Mr. Livingstone. 296 1 MR. COHEN: I'm not so sure that's 2 true, Mr. Klayman. Why don't you go ahead 3 and ask a question? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying he's a 5 friendly witness? 6 MR. COHEN: I don't think you've 7 been given any authorization from the judge. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to get 9 into discussion with your client. He'll just 10 simply answer the questions. 11 THE WITNESS: When I choose to do 12 so. 13 MR. COHEN: Go ahead, Mr. Klayman, 14 why don't you ask a question? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know Webster Hubbell? 17 A I don't know him. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever meet him? 22 A Yes, I have. 297 1 Q Where did you meet him? 2 A I believe at The White House but 3 perhaps as early as election night. 4 Q How did you meet him on election 5 night? 6 A I saw him. I may have given him 7 directions to an event, wished him well, that 8 kind of thing. 9 Q In what context did you meet him at 10 The White House? 11 A I believe I helped him get his pass 12 as a cabinet official. Actually, in his 13 case, he would have been one of the two 14 people from Justice that could have a pass. 15 Q In addition to getting him his pass 16 as an official, did you work with him in any 17 other way? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. It mischaracterizes the 20 testimony. 21 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 298 1 Q You are aware that Mr. Hubbell 2 received moneys from the Lipo Group? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question. Relevance. 5 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge 6 of that. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, when you worked on the 9 inauguration, did you meet George 10 Stephanopoulos? 11 A Yes. 12 Q In what context? 13 A He needed something done along the 14 line of advance. 15 Q What did he need doing? 16 A Make sure the press get that shot, 17 riser needs to be a little higher, let's get 18 these political people involved with the 19 President at this particular event, that type 20 of thing. 21 Q Did you work with him on more than 22 one occasion? 299 1 A I would say less than three 2 occasions. 3 Q What were the other two? 4 A Same events. Same things, events. 5 Q Did you have any other contact with 6 James Carville other than what you've just 7 described during the inauguration? 8 A No, sir, I did not. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to that last 10 question. Did you mean to say Carville or 11 Stephanopoulos? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Carville. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When you worked for the 15 inauguration, did you receive any written 16 correspondence from Hillary Clinton or anyone 17 that worked with her? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I can't think of any. 21 MR. COHEN: He answered your 22 question. 300 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't hear him. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I said I 3 couldn't think of any. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did you know any relatives of 6 Hillary Clinton up to the time that you 7 worked on the inauguration? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know of anyone who did know 12 relatives of Hillary Clinton? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I suppose that's 17 possible, but I don't know. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Your mother knew Hillary Clinton, 20 correct? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 301 1 THE WITNESS: That is absurd and 2 it's no. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Your mother had met Hillary 5 Clinton, correct? 6 A That is not true. 7 Q Had anyone from your family ever 8 met her? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: My dad may have met 13 her at The White House. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Under what circumstances? 16 A Social function, photo-op. 17 Q Why was your dad invited to The 18 White House? 19 A He attended a drug and alcohol 20 forum for the President. 21 Q When was that? 22 A I don't recall. 302 1 Q Just what year? 2 A Don't recall. 3 Q Who was your father working for at 4 the time? 5 A Bechtel Corporation. 6 Q What did he do for Bechtel at that 7 point? 8 A For Bechtel, he ran their employee 9 assistance program, which deals with drug and 10 alcohol issues. 11 Q Your father had had contact with 12 The White House before he was invited to the 13 party? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't say 19 that. There was an event for drug and 20 alcohol people. I thought my dad might like 21 to attend, I talked to whatever office is 22 handling it, and invited him, and they said, 303 1 great, let's invite him. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q This was after you were already 4 working at The White House? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Had anyone from your family met 7 Hillary Clinton or any of the Clintons before 8 you began to work at The White House? 9 A No. 10 Q Now, when did you cease working on 11 the inaugural? 12 A When it was over. Maybe a day or 13 two after. 14 Q Did you ever tell anyone that your 15 mother knew Hillary Clinton? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you ever tell Linda Tripp that? 18 A Absolutely not. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. Asked and answered. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever tell Gary Aldrich 304 1 that? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You told Linda Tripp that Hillary 6 Clinton hired you? 7 A No. 8 Q Told Gary Aldrich that Hillary 9 Clinton hired you? 10 A No. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When you were at The White House 15 you sometimes talked into your watch, didn't 16 you? 17 A No. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: If you're speaking 21 about what Ms. Tripp spoke about in her 22 deposition, Ms. Tripp was pretty whacked out 305 1 and I thought it was amusing, because she was 2 always complaining about Mrs. Clinton. 3 And one day I talked into my watch 4 and said to Mrs. Clinton I would come see her 5 immediately. I thought it was hilarious 6 because she went whoa. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q When you say Mrs. Tripp was whacked 9 out, what do you mean? 10 A I think she was a poor employee. I 11 think she was poorly placed. I think she was 12 disloyal, and I think that she was the wrong 13 person at the wrong time. 14 Q You seem to dislike her. Is that 15 accurate? 16 A No, I don't think that's accurate 17 at all. 18 Q When did you first meet Ms. Tripp? 19 A I don't know. I gazed out my 20 window sometimes while working at my desk and 21 would see her four or five different times a 22 day out on the west exec having a cigarette 306 1 and I asked somebody who that was and they 2 said she works in Counsel's Office. I think 3 that's how I first encountered Ms. Tripp. 4 Q In fact, because you didn't like 5 her, that's why you got her FBI file, 6 correct? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, lack of 10 foundation. 11 MR. COHEN: Don't answer. Object 12 to the lack of foundation with that. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Because you thought she was whacked 15 out you thought that gave you the right to 16 get her FBI file, correct? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. Same objection. No 19 foundation. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Correct? 307 1 MR. COHEN: It's a yes-or-no 2 question. 3 THE WITNESS: It's no. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What was it about Ms. Tripp that 6 was disloyal? 7 A She was a gossip. 8 Q How does being a gossip make you 9 disloyal? 10 A I think any person that is loyal 11 would understand that a gossip is disloyal. 12 She talks about other people's problems or 13 feebleness or her issues, her sickness, her 14 health as if it's information that's hers to 15 share with other people, when she should just 16 let the other people deal with it. 17 Q In what context did she do that? 18 A She would talk to co-workers 19 endlessly about it. 20 Q Who did she gossip about? 21 A The co-worker that she happened to 22 be gossiping with at that moment usually. 308 1 Q Who was she talking about in terms 2 of the gossip? 3 A Like I said, other people in the 4 office. 5 Q Did she talk frequently about 6 Mrs. Clinton? 7 A She complained about her. 8 Q What did she complain about? 9 A Just how she ruled The White House. 10 Q What did she say specifically? 11 A She didn't think that it was 12 appropriate the way the First Lady conducted 13 the herself. 14 Q Why wasn't it appropriate, 15 according to Ms. Tripp? 16 A I didn't really get into her it 17 with her. It just annoyed me that she would 18 talk that way, and if she was unhappy, she 19 should have put in for a transfer. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 21 relevancy of the question. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 309 1 Q Did she tell you how Mrs. Clinton 2 ruled The White House? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: She said the way she 5 conducted herself. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever talk to anybody about 8 Ms. Tripp while you were at The White House, 9 her attitude? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Well, it obviously upset you, 15 correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 18 Mischaracterizes the record. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q In fact, you considered Ms. Tripp a 22 security risk, didn't you? 310 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are you aware you're under oath? 7 A Yes, I am. 8 Q That means telling all the truth? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. Mr. Livingstone was sworn 11 in at the outset of this deposition. Do you 12 have a question? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When did you read Linda Tripp's 15 deposition in this case? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q Did you read it on Judicial Watch's 18 Web site? 19 A May have. 20 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp's 21 deposition with your counsel? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection. Instruct 311 1 the witness not to answer the question. 2 THE WITNESS: As I understand it, 3 that's lawyer client privilege conversation. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Not whether you discussed it. 6 MR. COHEN: Objection. Instruct 7 the witness not to answer the question. 8 Attorney-client privilege. I've instructed 9 the witness not to answer. Go ahead. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was there anyone else that you 13 worked with at The White House that gossiped 14 with Ms. Tripp that participated in the 15 discussions? I take it there was? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: There were 19 individuals, but I don't recall their names. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Was one Betsy Pond? 22 A I don't know what the context of 312 1 their conversations were, but they did often 2 have conversations because of the proximity 3 of their work space. 4 Q Now, at the time that you were 5 finishing up in the inaugural, did you seek a 6 position with The White House? 7 A Actually, I didn't think I would 8 try for The White House until I worked on the 9 cabinet get together up at Camp David. I was 10 looking more at other agencies. I think I 11 filled my form for the campaign, I think I 12 filled out several other different agencies. 13 Q You set up an event at Camp David? 14 A I worked on it. I didn't run it. 15 Q What event was that? 16 A Ms. Varney ran it. It was for the 17 newly appointed cabinet secretaries to get 18 together and discuss the President and Vice 19 President's agenda. 20 Q When Ms. Tripp complained that 21 Mrs. Clinton ran The White House, what did 22 you say? 313 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: Something 5 nonthreatening like I thought that 6 Mrs. Clinton was doing a good job. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What was the basis for your saying 9 you thought she was doing a good job? 10 A My personal belief. 11 Q Because you had worked closely with 12 her, correct? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: No, because I 17 observed her from afar like many staff, seen 18 her on TV, seen some of her press remarks, 19 seen some of her speeches in papers, and she 20 seemed to be a woman, a First Lady who was 21 standing up for her constituency and doing a 22 good job. 314 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You had worked directly with her 3 from time to time when you were working at 4 The White House, correct? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 8 THE WITNESS: No. I only worked 9 for her. When she would arrive at an event 10 like the PTA National Meeting, she would show 11 up at the event. I would have been there a 12 day or two prior to that working for 13 arrangements for her arrival, working with 14 the Secret Service for a place for her to 15 hold while preparations were to be ready. 16 Finding out what the group wanted 17 her to say, what the key points of the 18 group -- who the President's name was, the 19 next president's name, making sure we had 20 photo opportunities with the correct 21 individuals, she shook the right hands, she 22 worked the rope line and shook the junior 315 1 people's hands and spent a little bit of time 2 and commented on the PTA agenda and some of 3 the points, so they would feel she was aware 4 of what they were doing. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You say you told Ms. Tripp 7 something nonthreatening. What did you tell 8 her? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 10 Asked and answered. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form 13 asked and answered. 14 THE WITNESS: I have answered that 15 but I'll be happy to answer it again. I 16 thought she was doing a fine job. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You have threatened people in the 19 past, haven't you? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection, Mr. Klayman, 21 to the question. The form of the question is 22 improper as is the impulse behind it. 316 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 A I am not -- unlike you 4 apparently -- I'm not a sinner without 5 committing sinner, and I haven't always been 6 the best person in my life. I have a bit of 7 a temper from time to time. 8 Q The answer's yes? 9 A I get up every morning and pray to 10 God that I'll be a better person the next 11 day. 12 Q How does that answer my question? 13 Did you ever threaten anybody? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. Irrelevant. 16 THE WITNESS: I threatened a 17 woman's dog because this woman who moved in 18 after me sometime launched a campaign of 19 terror and noise and against me. She would 20 sit up on the floor and go speak, speak, 21 speak, and that dog, wanting to be a good dog 22 would speak, speak, speak, and this went on 317 1 for about a year and it really got old, so I 2 filed a complaint. 3 She went around and got all the 4 people in the condo who had bigger places to 5 change the rules after I'd sign the covenant 6 for smaller dogs and it just got out of hand. 7 It was stupid and I regret it and I 8 apologized. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Where were you living at the time? 11 A I was living below her. 12 Q Where? In Washington, D.C.? 13 A I'm sorry. Chevy Chase. 14 Q What year was this? 15 A The year that I screamed. 16 Q The year of the dog? 17 A Thank you for the levity. I 18 appreciate it. I believe, sir, it was 19 in 1995. 20 Q You were working for The White 21 House at the time, correct? 22 A Yes. 318 1 Q You threatened to bash in her face, 2 correct? 3 A No. 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: As I recall, I said 7 that I was going to kick the dog if she 8 didn't keep it quiet, but I did apologize 9 both to her and when the officer came, I told 10 him I worked at The White House and I said 11 this is not behavior becoming someone working 12 at The White House. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q She filed a -- 15 MR. COHEN: Let him finish his 16 answer, Mr. Klayman. 17 THE WITNESS: That I was sorry, and 18 he said fine, we're not going to file a 19 report. She's decided not to file a 20 complaint, but we'll keep this on a little 21 box and if there's a problem again, we'll 22 come out and arrest you. I said you won't 319 1 have a problem. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q She filed a criminal complaint 4 against you? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. No foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe 8 that's true. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q She filed a complaint of any kind? 11 A She called the police. They came. 12 They asked if she wanted to file a complaint; 13 she asked if I had apologized; I said I 14 wouldn't say anything to her or her dog 15 again, and didn't and that was the end of 16 that. 17 Q What is that person's name? 18 MR. COHEN: What person? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q The person whose dog you 21 threatened? 22 A Well, I believe her name was 320 1 Barbara Sable. 2 Q Sable? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q How's that spelled? 5 A S-a-b-l-e. 6 Q What was the address at the time 7 where were you all living? 8 A I was at 6717 Hillendale. I don't 9 know what her address was, but it's a number 10 corresponding to Hillendale. 11 Q In Chevy Chase? 12 A Correct. 13 Q What was the name of the apartment 14 complex? 15 A It's a townhouse community. I 16 don't know. I forgot. It's the corner of 17 Bradley and Hillendale. It's right at the 18 corner. Nice little place. Normal people. 19 Don't yell at each other. 20 Q Now you say she waged a campaign of 21 terror and intimidation against you? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 321 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: Well, sir, I have 3 read so many different characterization of 4 this event, most recently in this heinous 5 book from New York that's now described as an 6 elderly neighbor. 7 This 20 some year old woman, I 8 walked up nicely and walked on her dog -- 9 little dog was going to become a big dog they 10 had a Splinter about 40-pound animals and her 11 answer to me was basically f--- off and as 12 the dog got bigger, she purposely had no 13 carpets on her floors, ran the dog around in 14 little circles and made him bark, and I lost 15 it. 16 What I did was wrong and it was 17 stupid. I'm probably the most publicized 18 backyard over the fence neighbor problem in 19 the nation. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What book were you talking about? 22 Joyce Milton's book? 322 1 A Yes. 2 Q Hillary's Clinton's -- 3 A She described her as an elderly 4 person. 5 Q How old is she or was she? 6 A 25 or 27. 7 Q Show you what I'll ask the court 8 reporter to mark as Exhibit 8. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: 9, I believe. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: 9. 11 (Livingston Deposition Exhibit 12 No. 9 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 THE WITNESS: I would like to say, 15 Mr. Klayman, if I may very briefly, that I 16 know it was wrong. I'm sorry I did it and I 17 moved. I sold my house at less than what I 18 could have gotten for it, and I moved so that 19 it wouldn't happen again. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You were afraid of the woman or the 22 dog? 323 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: It's just time to go. 4 It just wasn't going to get resolved. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Is that a copy of the police report 7 evidencing this incident? 8 A As I read it, it's an event report, 9 not a criminal complaint. 10 Q I said police report. Is this a 11 copy of the police report evidencing this 12 particular event? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Have you ever threatened anyone 15 else? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. Mischaracterizes the 18 testimony. Even here, dogs aren't people. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever threatened anything 21 other than a dog? 22 A I don't know. As I said, I have an 324 1 Irish temper, and I may have spouted off. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 3 form of the answer. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. It's my 5 blood. What can I say. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Looking at the second page of this 8 report, the officer writes, "was walking her 9 dog accompanied by and when she was 10 confronted by Livingstone, Livingstone 11 told if you don't keep that fucking dog 12 quiet, I'm going to beat your face in." You 13 said that, didn't you? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't believe what 17 I said was that but it was certainly 18 something as objectionable as that so I'll 19 take responsibility for that, yes, sir. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q So your prior testimony was not 22 true, correct? 325 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. That's not what 3 Mr. Livingstone testified to. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Correct? 6 A No. 7 MR. COHEN: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Tell me the events leading up to 10 your employment at The White House. How did 11 you get the job? 12 MR. COHEN: Are we done with the 13 dog episode? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: We're done with the 15 dog episode for now. 16 MR. COHEN: Perhaps we'll be lucky 17 enough to come back to it. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Livingstone, can you tell me 20 the events leading up to your employment at 21 The White House? How did you get the job? 22 A I told you, I worked on that event 326 1 at Camp David, and during and after that time 2 I talked with Ms. Christine Varney about the 3 possibility of working at The White House. 4 She said she'd check into it. 5 She made some inquiries I suppose. 6 She told me she did so. She, at one point, 7 told me that there might be a position 8 opening in Counsel's Office, not a great job 9 but administrative job, not a job that I'd 10 probably be interested in, but would I like 11 to talk about it. 12 Q Who was Christine Varney at the 13 time? 14 A She was the President's cabinet 15 secretary. 16 Q When you coordinated that event at 17 Camp David, what specifically did you do? 18 A As I said, I worked on the event. 19 I didn't coordinate it. Part of my job was 20 logistics of getting people to and from Camp 21 David. 22 Q There wasn't anything with regard 327 1 to reviewing background security files or 2 documents, correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q In working on that event at Camp 5 David, you had contact with Hillary Clinton? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 7 form. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't think I did 11 at all. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q But you may have? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 15 form. 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: I'll think about it 19 for a second. No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You had contact with people on her 22 staff? 328 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I was 5 responsible for contacting Mrs. Clinton's 6 staff either. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q After you spoke with Ms. Varney 9 about this job, what happened after that? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 THE WITNESS: Shortly thereafter I 13 had a meeting with Ms. Cheryl Mills in 14 Counsel's Office. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Was anyone present at that meeting? 17 A I don't believe so. I think it was 18 Cheryl and I. 19 Q Who spoke first, you or Ms. Mills? 20 A I would suspect it would be 21 Ms. Mills. 22 Q What did she say to you? 329 1 A That there was apparently a 2 position that might be available in Counsel's 3 Office. It was a low level job, largely 4 administrative, and as I recall, we may -- at 5 that time we may or may not have met 6 Mr. Foster for a quick, hi, how are you. 7 This is the person I'm considering 8 for the job, and thank you and we were 9 dismissed. 10 Q So you met Mr. Foster in Ms. Mills' 11 office? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know where it 15 happened, but I remember meeting Mr. Foster 16 shortly after meeting Mr. Mills -- 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Ms. Mills. 18 MR. COHEN: Ms. Mills. 19 THE WITNESS: Ms. Mills. Sorry. 20 Again, it was just meet and greet, no 21 conversation. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 330 1 Q Ms. Mills told you that Hillary 2 Clinton recommended you for this job? 3 A Absolutely not. Mrs. Clinton's 4 name didn't come up at all. 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What happened after the meeting 9 with Ms. Mills? 10 A I think I cooled my heels. I heard 11 back from her shortly thereafter. It all 12 happened pretty fast, within a week. I think 13 she then told me that they hadn't made a 14 decision yet. They hadn't made a decision 15 with the associate counsel to the President 16 who would supervise that area either, but 17 that I could go over to Room 84 and introduce 18 myself and try to learn what it is that they 19 do on a cursory level with the anticipation 20 that I might interview for the job once they 21 found an associate counsel to oversee that 22 operation. 331 1 Q Did you ultimately interview for 2 the job? 3 A With Mr. Kennedy. 4 Q When did that happen? 5 A I think a day or two after he 6 started. 7 Q Did you talk to anybody else about 8 the job up to the point of the interview with 9 Mr. Kennedy? 10 A I don't believe so. Maybe a very 11 brief -- these are sensitive documents. We 12 need to keep your nose to the stone, work 13 hard, kind of conversation from Cheryl and 14 Mr. Foster, but that would be it. 15 Q Just for clarification, what was 16 the job that you were interviewing for? 17 A The director of the office. 18 Q Office of what? 19 A I don't think they called it 20 director then. I think they called it 21 special assistant, so the position -- to be 22 precise, I think I interviewed to be the 332 1 special assistant to the counsel to the 2 President for security. 3 Q When you met with Mr. Kennedy, 4 where did you meet with him? 5 A I suspect in his office. I don't 6 recall specifically. 7 Q When you met with him in his 8 office, you saw files laying around, didn't 9 you? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. Object to the 13 vagueness. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 15 Mr. Kennedy impressed me as the kind of 16 lawyer who has a lot of work going on at once 17 and would probably lock it up once he was all 18 done with it, but I wouldn't say lying around 19 in stacks, no. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Where did the word stacks come 22 from? You read his deposition? 333 1 A I've read several of the 2 depositions, yeah. 3 Q When you were in his office, you 4 did see what later you would learn was 5 information obtained from the FBI? You saw 6 those kinds of files, didn't you? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: Honestly, I don't 11 know. I didn't look in his filed folder, so 12 I'm not sure what was in those file folders. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You previously testified that the 15 only thing that ever comes over from the FBI 16 in terms of background security checks are 17 FBI summaries, correct? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 19 of the question as mischaracterizing the 20 witness's testimony. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 334 1 MR. COHEN: I will join that 2 objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Isn't that what you testified to? 5 MR. COHEN: I object. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Would you like me 7 to -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want anything 9 more, Mr. Gilligan. That's already enough. 10 Believe me. Certify it. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Very well, 12 Mr. Klayman. I will not correct your error 13 for you. 14 THE WITNESS: I think what I said 15 was that we did not receive files from the 16 FBI. We received summary reports which look 17 like something similar to this document, 18 Exhibit Number 8, two to three pages in 19 length, which would read date of birth, place 20 of birth, Social Security number, education, 21 military service, government employments, 22 marriage, security clearances, education, and 335 1 if any criminal record. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did those summary reports come in 4 any particular types of folders or jackets? 5 A No, sir. They came in little 6 bundles. Just stacked up like this, 7 sometimes with a rubber band around them or 8 in a box sometimes. 9 Q In a box and it was just the 10 documents themselves? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q When they got to The White House, 13 you and your staff had to put them into 14 files, correct? 15 A Actually, when they got to The 16 White House, they went to the associate 17 counsel responsible for receiving them. They 18 would review them, they would determine if 19 they would vet them, they would determine if 20 there were any problems, and then they would 21 send them to the appropriate offices, one of 22 which was my office if they're a White House 336 1 staff volunteer, intern, or one of the 2 several offices that we oversaw that summary 3 background, yes, sir, would come to us, and 4 we would make it a part of the personnel 5 file. 6 Q You'd make up the file? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q What kind of file folders did you 9 use, generally speaking? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: We had a coded 12 system, color-coded, depending on the 13 employee. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Who devised the color coded system? 16 A I believe Ms. Gemmell, the 17 predecessor from Bush and Reagan 18 Administrations. 19 Q Did the color-coded system relate 20 to any particular division of types of FBI 21 summary reports? 22 A Oh, no, sir. It had nothing to do 337 1 with the report at all. It was -- the 2 personnel folders were color-coded as to 3 denote status, whether they're a White House 4 fellow, an AT&T contractor, a military 5 person, senior White House staff, intern, 6 volunteer, et cetera. It had nothing to do 7 with the report itself. 8 Q The file folders did not say FBI on 9 the outside? 10 A Absolutely not. No reason to. 11 Q They didn't say Department of 12 Justice on the outside? 13 A Absolutely not. 14 Q Did all the files come to you 15 before they went upstairs to Kennedy's 16 office? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 18 answered. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Mischaracterizes the 20 record. 21 THE WITNESS: I said the reports 22 would arrive at The White House at 338 1 Mr. Kennedy or the appropriate Counsel's 2 Office, and then the reports would be sent to 3 my office and made into the appropriate 4 color-coded file denoting the person's status 5 at The White House. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Those reports related both to 8 holdover employees and political appointees? 9 A That would be correct. 10 Q Then they'd be sent back to 11 Kennedy's office as needed? 12 A No, sir. We archive the files in 13 our vault. 14 Q Those files could be requested by 15 other offices in The White House? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 17 MR. COHEN: Object for the form of 18 the question. 19 THE WITNESS: Not other offices but 20 other people as appointed by the counsel to 21 the President and all those people were 22 counsel's staff. 339 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You are aware that William Kennedy 3 requested files while you were working there, 4 correct? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q You are aware that he labeled many 7 of those files himself? 8 A Initially, he started a program 9 where he would keep the senior White House 10 staff's folders in his office, for whatever 11 reason, because they were being vetted for 12 other jobs or whatever he would tell me. 13 When he left, he decided to have those also 14 stored in our office. 15 Q You are aware that when you sent up 16 the summary reports to him, that he would 17 sometimes label those summary reports in his 18 own filing system? 19 MR. COHEN: Object to the form. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I was not aware 21 of that. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: The question 340 1 mischaracterizes the record. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You are aware that he kept some of 4 these files in a safe or safes in and around 5 his office? 6 MR. COHEN: Object to the form. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 8 Mischaracterizes the record. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to that 10 objection because that is in effect giving 11 the witness testimony. It's your opinion as 12 to whether he's testifying correctly or not 13 and that signals the witness. I move for 14 sanctions. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Go ahead. 16 MR. COHEN: Denied. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: He can certainly tell 18 whether or not it's mischaracterizing his 19 testimony. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: I didn't say it was 21 mischaracterizing his testimony. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking you to 341 1 stop. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm asking you to 3 stop, Mr. Klayman. Your threats of sanctions 4 are inappropriate. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: They're not threats. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Your promises are 7 inappropriate. I stated my objection 8 succinctly, as required by the federal rules 9 of civil procedure. 10 THE WITNESS: What's the question? 11 MR. COHEN: Is there a question 12 pending? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: You did not because 14 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure say you 15 do not have to object on any objection of 16 substance and that's why making this 17 objection is in fact sanctionable. 18 Whether the court decides to do it 19 or not is another question, but we 20 continually will be moving in that regard. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Very civil of you to 22 say so, Mr. Klayman. 342 1 MR. COHEN: Is there a question? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Are you aware that Mr. Kennedy 4 would label FBI materials himself and file 5 them himself? 6 A I was aware that Mr. Kennedy 7 maintained certain senior level people's 8 files because he thought it was appropriate. 9 I think he had Mr. Foster's file, 10 Mr. Nussbaum's file, my file, and a couple 11 other people's files, and I think he did that 12 for safekeeping and it made sense to me. I 13 didn't question it. 14 Q You were aware that he had 15 Mr. Billy Dale's file, correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 19 mischaracterizes the record. 20 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of it 21 and I am not aware of it. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 343 1 Q You are aware The White House had 2 his file, aren't you? 3 A I am aware of that. 4 Q You've seen Mr. Billy Dale's file, 5 haven't you? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I have. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You've seen the FBI files of other 11 Travel Office workers, correct? 12 A I'm not sure but I think I saw one 13 additional Travel Office file. 14 Q You actually reviewed Mr. Dale's 15 file, didn't you? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I 20 reviewed it. I think I was asked to bring it 21 to Mr. Kennedy. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 344 1 Q When were you asked to bring it to 2 Mr. Kennedy? 3 A I don't recall the specific date. 4 Q Why were you asked to bring it to 5 Mr. Kennedy? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 8 wanted to see it. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you ask him why am I bringing 11 this file? 12 A No, I never did on anybody. 13 Q Did he ask you to bring him the 14 file on John Dreylinger? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q You don't remember? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Barney Brasso? 19 A Don't remember. 20 Q Ralph Mond? 21 A Don't remember. 22 Q Robert van Eimren? 345 1 A Don't remember. 2 Q John McSweeney? 3 A Don't remember. 4 Q Gary Wright? 5 A Don't remember. 6 Q Did he ask anybody else working 7 with you to bring him those files? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 11 memory of him doing that, no. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So you don't know one way or the 14 other? 15 A No, sir. 16 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did he ask you to bring him the 20 file on Chris Emery? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q William Clinger? 346 1 A I don't believe we had a file on 2 William Clinger. I never saw a file on 3 William Clinger that I recall. 4 Q Mrs. Clinton and -- 5 MR. COHEN: Just one second, 6 Mr. Klayman. 7 (Witness conferred with counsel) 8 MR. GILLIGAN: I need a moment to 9 consult with Mr. Cohen, Mr. Klayman. 10 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I don't 12 know specifically who -- if it was 13 Mr. Kennedy. It could have been Chris Serf. 14 It could have been Jane Sherburne better than 15 or one of those people as well. There were 16 different times that Mr. Dale's file was 17 requested. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did Mr. Cohen tell you that answer? 20 A No, absolutely not. 21 Q What were you consulting about 22 before you came up with that? 347 1 MR. COHEN: I will object to that 2 and instruct the witness not to answer on 3 attorney-client privilege grounds. You got 4 the answer you needed. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Who asked you to bring Mr. Dale's 7 file to William Kennedy? 8 A As I said, I'm not sure that 9 Mr. Kennedy requested it. I remember taking 10 it up to Mr. Kennedy or his assistant -- I 11 mean or his replacement, but I also remember 12 towards the end Jane Sherburne or one of 13 those people asking for it. 14 Q Why did they request it? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. I 18 instruct the witness not to answer that on 19 the grounds of attorney-client privilege at 20 least pending an opportunity to consult with 21 him. 22 THE WITNESS: They don't tell me. 348 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Were you ever asked to bring up the 4 file of Deborah A. Mend? 5 A I don't know that name. 6 Q David Quinton Bates? 7 A I don't know that name. 8 Q When I say you, I mean you or 9 anyone in your office? 10 MR. COHEN: I object to that 11 question. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't know the 13 name. Doesn't ring a bell. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Barney Blare Brasso? 16 MR. COHEN: Asked and answered. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Ann Cafe Brock? 19 A Doesn't ring a bell, sir. 20 Q William James Canary? 21 A No. 22 Q Terry Warren Good? 349 1 A I don't recall. 2 Q Marine Hudson? 3 A Don't recall. 4 Q Susana Ludwig? 5 A Don't recall. 6 Q Al Nagy? 7 A I don't know. I just don't know -- 8 what I can talk about on these files. 9 Q You can talk about that. 10 MR. COHEN: Let's take a break. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: What's the question, 12 whether anyone requested that file, Al Nagy? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Whether anyone ever 14 requested or whether you ever took that file 15 up to Mr. Kennedy or anyone else in The White 16 House Counsel's Office? 17 MR. COHEN: Hang on one second. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: We're going to 19 object for that question, Mr. Klayman, on the 20 ground that Mr. Nagy was a current employee 21 at the time, then whether or not his file is 22 requested is irrelevant, as the judge has 350 1 ruled. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: He still has to 3 answer. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: No, he doesn't. The 5 judge has moved it's irrelevant. If you want 6 to ask the judge to change his mind, you're 7 free to do that. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a file that 9 Linda Tripp identified in her deposition as 10 having seen in Kennedy's office. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: So, if he was a 12 current employee at that time, it's 13 irrelevant. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't tell him 15 not to answer? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, I can. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the legal 18 basis for that? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: The judge has issued 20 an order on this very subject and deemed it 21 to be irrelevant and beyond the scope of 22 discovery. 351 1 MR. KLAYMAN: What order is that? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: I believe it's the 3 Mary Anderson order? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: That said I couldn't 5 ask about Al Nagy? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Please, don't be 7 facetious with me, Mr. Klayman. The judge 8 said that said current employees of the 9 Clinton administration are in their files and 10 use of their files is irrelevant and beyond 11 the scope of discovery. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know whether Nagy was a 14 current employee at the time that you worked 15 at The White House? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Was he? 18 A He was. He ran the telephones. 19 Q David Michael Carny? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Same, let's find out 21 if he was current at the time. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know the 352 1 name. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't 3 interrupt my deposition. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm going to 5 interrupt your deposition to the extent that 6 you're asking questions about the files 7 regarding current employees. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You don't get to 9 interrupt me and ask questions over me. That 10 is rude. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, I do. The 12 judge's order says that. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It does? We'll have 14 to talk to the judge about it. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Any time. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't recognize 17 that name, sir. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you let him 19 answer the question? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: He just said he 21 doesn't recognize the name. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 353 1 Q Was he a current employee? 2 A I don't recognize the name, meaning 3 I don't know the person, so I wouldn't know 4 if he's a current employee. 5 Q You are aware that Mari Anderson 6 has testified that she discussed FBI files 7 with the Travel Office on the phone with 8 someone? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 12 mischaracterizes the testimony. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I'm 14 aware of it. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q When you do something like that, 17 you're telling the witness the answer. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: No, I'm not. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, you are. 20 Certify it. I'm asking that you stop. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm telling you I 22 won't. 354 1 MR. KLAYMAN: My last request. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: And that's my last 3 answer. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You're aware that Ms. Anderson 6 discussed FBI files on the phone concerning 7 the Travel Office? 8 A No. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you? 13 A I don't recall. 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of that question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Now, you were aware that the Travel 18 Office was fired, correct? 19 A Yes, I was. 20 Q In fact you were the one that led 21 the Travel Office employees out of The White 22 House that day, correct? 355 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of that question. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't believe 4 that's correct. I don't believe I led them 5 out of the White House. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What did you do that day? 8 A I was instructed to help get their 9 things together. We tried to do so in a 10 decent manner, you know, not throw all their 11 stuff in a box, you know, let them pack it 12 up. It's kind of confusing to us. I don't 13 think I was rude to them or in any way was 14 mean to them. 15 I was instructed to help them go 16 around or have someone help them go around 17 and check out. But it's not like we dragged 18 them out. 19 Q Who instructed you to do that? 20 A Mr. David Watkins. 21 Q He told you that that was the 22 instruction of Hillary Clinton, correct? 356 1 A No, sir, he did not. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: He absolutely didn't 5 mention her name at all in any context. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You are aware that 7 Mrs. Clinton is the one who ordered the 8 firing of The White House Travel Office. 9 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge 10 of that. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You took the file of Billy Dale to 16 The White House counsel's office before he 17 was fired, correct? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q You took the file of Billy Dale to 20 The White House Counsel's Office for a 21 meeting that took place at The White House 22 Counsel's Office, correct? 357 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 5 Mr. Klayman, I had reposited over 10,000 6 personnel files, and I can't possibly 7 remember every single action that we did with 8 a file -- personnel file. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q When you were in the process of 11 reviewing FBI summary reports that came over 12 from the The White House, you did do that, 13 didn't you? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of that question. 16 THE WITNESS: After associate 17 counsel had vetted them, they would send them 18 to us for their permanent passes. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Associate counsel being William 21 Kennedy? 22 A Or Beth Nolan, et cetera, et 358 1 cetera. 2 Q You would review those summary 3 reports from time to time? 4 A As I was instructed to do, yes. 5 Q Sometimes you would joke with 6 people in The White House that you knew about 7 their background, correct? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think I 11 would joke with people at The White House. I 12 think in the course of three and a half years 13 I made a couple of comments for which I was 14 reprimanded for. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Who did you make those comments to? 17 A To a woman. I can't talk to you 18 about what, but it was a half-hearted prank 19 that she had done and I said something like, 20 we're not going to have that here at The 21 White House, and she took that as an 22 inappropriate comment. On second thought, I 359 1 agreed it was. It certainly could have been 2 done in the context of doing it in my office 3 rather than at lunch, and I realized my 4 error, and I tried not to do that again. 5 Q You knew about the prank because 6 you had looked at her summary report, 7 correct? 8 A As I stated before -- which was the 9 normal course of my duties. 10 Q Who was the woman that complained? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Don't know. Forgot. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Never mind. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You were upset when you were 16 reprimanded for that, weren't you? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I was upset when I 20 was reprimanded for it? I think I was upset 21 for letting it happen. 22 Q Who reprimanded you? 360 1 A If I got reprimanded at all, it was 2 by Ms. Liverman in a hallway in a car port 3 co. She said, Craig, we shouldn't do things 4 like that. It's not going to happen again. 5 If you call that a reprimand, I gues I was 6 reprimanded. 7 Q Ms. Liverman worked for Hillary 8 Clinton, at that time, correct? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I believe she worked 12 for Ms. Clinton at some time. I don't know 13 if she did at that time in fact work for 14 Ms. Clinton. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What time was this? 17 A I don't know. I don't remember. 18 It was early in the administration. 19 Q Ms. Liverman told you how she found 20 out you had done that? 21 A She said the individual complained. 22 Q How did she learn that the