1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Afternoon Session -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Wednesday, May 26, 1999 12 Deposition of 13 DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 3:24 p.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary 20 public in and for the District of Columbia, 21 when were present on behalf on the respective 22 parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE ROBERT CORRY, ESQUIRE 4 PAUL ORFANADES, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 6 (202) 646-5172 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 8 Office of the President: 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 ALLISON GILES, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, D.C. 20004 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE 16 NATALIA LEONS, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5175 6 On behalf of The White House: 7 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 9 (202) 456-5079 10 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 11 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 12 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 13 (212) 403-1000 14 On behalf of Deponent: 15 DAVID S. COHEN, ESQUIRE Miller Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, L.L.P. 16 2555 M Street N.W. Washington. D.C. 20037-1302 17 (202) 833-6503 18 ALSO PRESENT: 19 David Black Thomas Fitton Joseph Nelson Cate Gerry Greenberg 20 Billy Dale Ralph T. Maughan John Dreylinger M. Dennis Sculimbrene 21 22 250 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 3 CONTINUED 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on 5 video record at 3:24. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Before we went on to the 8 confidential record, we had taken you up, I 9 believe it was, to the period after you 10 worked for the DNC Convention, and after that 11 period of time, did you then get a job for 12 the Clinton-Gore campaign, the 1992 campaign? 13 A I'm sorry. After the Clinton 14 convention? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I did. 17 Q Was there anything in between that 18 time, any employment? 19 A You're talking about prior to me 20 getting a job as an advance person? I worked 21 on a project in Angola with Jonas Savimbi in 22 a first UN election. We went over to train 251 1 their former guerrilla solders, who are now 2 in election campaign strategy supervised by 3 the UN, and I specifically trained on 4 rallies, organizing rallies. 5 Q When did you work for Jonas 6 Savimbi? 7 A Actually, we worked for a guy named 8 Steve White. It's an oil company out of 9 Texas, and he brought us in to help Jonas 10 Savimbi with his election. 11 Q Did you travel to Angola? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q How long were you there? 14 A I think a couple weeks. 15 Q Who did you work with, in addition 16 to that person? 17 A James Smith, Nick Friendly, and one 18 other gentleman, whose name escapes me. 19 Q Where is Mr. Smith? 20 A He's at Smith Dawson on K Street. 21 I think it's 1100 K Street. 22 Q It was after that point in time 252 1 that you took your job working on the 2 Clinton-Gore campaign in 1992? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q How did you get that job? 5 A Through friends that were already 6 working on a campaign. 7 Q What friends were they? 8 A Iris Burnett, Mike Jones, those are 9 the two main people. 10 Q Had you identified Mike Jones 11 before? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q Who was Mike Jones? 14 A He was an advance person for 15 Senator Gore. 16 Q Had you also gotten to know him 17 when you worked for Senator Worth? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you approach the Clinton-Gore 20 campaign for a job? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 253 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I 2 called them when I was back in the country 3 and said I'd be interested in doing some 4 advance. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Were you ultimately hired to do 7 advance work? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q What were your duties and 10 responsibilities in terms of doing advance 11 work for the Clinton-Gore '92 campaign? 12 A I would travel to a city with a 13 team of five or six people. My role 14 primarily was to build large rallyes and 15 crowds, visuals we call them, and I would go 16 out and recruit individuals to help me 17 recruit individuals. 18 Q You previously testified that 19 during the period you worked on the campaign, 20 you got to meet James Carville, correct? 21 A In passing, yes, sir. 22 Q You had some conversations with 254 1 him, correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q As testified to previously. 6 A I don't think I said conversations. 7 I think we bumped into each other and 8 exchanged pleasantries, hi, how are you kind 9 of stuff. 10 Q It was on that '92 campaign that 11 you originated the Chicken George operation? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: No, that's incorrect. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Who thought of that one? 17 A I believe that was Iris Burnett. 18 Q Do you know who played Chicken 19 George? 20 A Many different people. 21 Q You included? 22 A No. 255 1 Q You never appeared as a chicken? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q During the time that you worked on 4 the Clinton-Gore campaign, you were not 5 responsible for reviewing background security 6 files, were you? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Received no training to that 9 effect? 10 A That's correct, sir. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q But you were one of the people that 14 actually recruited the chickens, correct? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: Actually, no. The 18 chickens were made known to me and I deployed 19 them. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q How did you deploy them? 22 A They would come in their 256 1 non-chicken attire, and we would go to a 2 public space where Mr. Bush would be 3 speaking, and this was done because Mr. Bush 4 at that time had decided not to debate 5 Mr. Clinton, and it was done in fun, and at 6 one point, according to Ms. Burnett, Mr. Bush 7 gave a note to one of the chickens saying 8 something like, you guys are doing a good 9 job. 10 He took it to be half-hearted 11 politics. He doesn't seem too upset by the 12 whole thing. I mean, they weren't causing 13 fistfights and stuff like that. They weren't 14 heckling him. 15 Q Who were the people you worked with 16 most closely on the campaign? 17 A Well, there's that name Iris 18 Burnett again. I pretty much worked for her. 19 I have to tell you I'm really bad with names, 20 and I met a lot of people that I worked with 21 like one time. 22 Q Had you ever worked with someone by 257 1 the name of Casey? 2 A Can you give me a first name? 3 Q Dennis Casey? 4 A I know who Dennis Casey is. 5 Q Who is he? 6 A He's the individual that lied 7 before the U.S. Congress. I might add not 8 under oath about me being thrown out of the 9 state of Pennsylvania and never working on 10 the campaign again, neither of which 11 happened. 12 I worked on the campaign as 13 everyone knows, till the very end, and I went 14 back to Pennsylvania three times. 15 Q So you're saying Mr. Casey lied to 16 Congress during its Filegate investigation? 17 A If in fact -- what was reported 18 that he said is correct, yes. 19 Q Why do you think Mr. Casey lied? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 21 of the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. It's 258 1 certainly not correct. Maybe he's confused. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Who else did you work with on the 4 Clinton-Gore campaign most closely? 5 A A fellow named Jim Denbo, Steve 6 Bachar -- 7 Q How's that spelled? 8 A I believe it's spelled B-a-c-h-a-r. 9 Q Where is Mr. Bachar today? 10 A I think he's in Washington. 11 Q Do you know where he works? 12 A I think he heads up McDonald's 13 Russia campaign during the Ronald McDonald 14 stuff abroad, and he's a law student at 15 Georgetown. 16 Q Has he ever worked at The White 17 House? 18 A No. He's been a lead advance 19 person, which means he's one of the four 20 people assigned to the President officially 21 so -- 22 Q Who else did you work with most 259 1 closely? 2 A I'd say that's about it. 3 Q During the campaign, you met the 4 President, Mr. Clinton? 5 A Briefly. 6 Q Where did you meet him? 7 A Campaign stops. 8 Q Under what circumstances did you 9 meet him? 10 A Where's my damn diet Coke? It's 11 hot in here. Where are we going? What are 12 we going to do? Who are you? 13 Q You told him who you were? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q So he knew who you were? 16 A No. 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. I 20 think that's why he asked me who I was. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q After you told him, he knew who you 260 1 were? 2 A He asked me that a couple times. 3 Q How many times did he ask you that? 4 A Few times. 5 Q 20? 6 A No, but several. I think he knew 7 who I was. He just couldn't remember names 8 sometimes. 9 Q What else did you do for him during 10 the campaign? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I helped out with the 14 election night victory party. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What did you do for that? 17 A I co-produced the event at the 18 State House, which is where they came out and 19 thanked the American people. 20 Q Who was your co-producer? 21 A A guy named Redmond Walsh. 22 Q Where is he today? 261 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Where was he then? 3 A I think he was out of L. A. 4 Q I take it you worked with Harry and 5 Susan Bloodworth Thomasons? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say I 9 worked with them. They were in charge of the 10 even, and I was an element of the event. I 11 took direction from them. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You got to know both Harry and 14 Susan? 15 A Actually, I did not get to know 16 them very well at all. I didn't get to know 17 Ms. Thomason at all, and I got to know Harry 18 a little bit better but not much. 19 Q What specifically did you do with 20 Harry? 21 A Basically, they wanted to know if I 22 was screwing up their events with the 262 1 security requirements, and I assured them 2 that the security requirements were important 3 and conveyed to them in such a way that it 4 was good for everybody so that people 5 wouldn't get crushed or events -- if there 6 was something wrong, there would be a proper 7 safety exit, and they agreed in the long run 8 that we had to do it the Secret Service way. 9 Q Well, at that point you didn't know 10 the Secret Service way? 11 A Yes, I did, actually. I spent a 12 great deal of time -- in fact, I had an 13 agent, Anthony Zotto, assigned to me at the 14 inaugural, who actually worked in my office, 15 who spent a great length of time each day 16 interfacing with me and various law 17 enforcement elements of D.C., to include 18 military, seven or eight different 19 metropolitan agencies, the FBI, CIA. 20 He basically ran interference 21 saying, look, this is the kid that has got 22 the job, but -- and I know we've done this 263 1 four times for four different times, this is 2 what we're going to do and he'll go along 3 with that kind of thing and they did. 4 Q What did they tell you to do? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Wait a minute. Are 6 we talking about some sort of security 7 measurements? 8 THE WITNESS: Very general. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Keep it very 10 general. 11 THE WITNESS: It was important that 12 there was a procedure set in place that was 13 time tested over many different years that if 14 we didn't deviate from it, everything would 15 go fine. We had to fight with our event 16 people a little bit because they of course 17 wanted to do big splashy things, but we toned 18 it down a bit, and in the long run we 19 listened to their advice as much as we could 20 and we had a successful event largely because 21 of them. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 264 1 Q Well, there was nothing that you 2 did that concerned itself with background 3 security checks or files on that campaign? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: Actually, that's not 7 correct. At that point we started doing name 8 checks, and the FBI supplied the information 9 to us, so I saw the actual name check at that 10 point. So I knew what a name check was. I 11 knew what to look for. 12 I got a lot more introduction then 13 to the necessity of getting the information 14 from individuals to the appropriate law 15 enforcement people so they could help us 16 identify any potential problems. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What was a name check? What is 19 that? 20 A They ran their name, date of birth, 21 Social Security number, and they checked 22 various indices for arrests, convictions, 265 1 warrants, outstanding warrants. 2 Q Was there a report that you had 3 access to? 4 A I believe so. 5 Q Did you review reports of people's 6 name checks? 7 A Well, like I said, it would only 8 have something if there was something there, 9 and less than a tiny percent -- I can't even 10 think of the fraction it would be, most of 11 them were fine. They didn't have any 12 information. 13 Q But you we were involved in 14 acquiring the information for the name 15 checks? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: No. That was the job 19 of -- I believe it was actually the Secret 20 Service that did it, not the FBI. It was 21 similar to what they do at The White House. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 266 1 Q Other than providing the name of 2 the individual, you really didn't do anything 3 with regard to the name checks? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, we did if the 7 person had a problem, we would report it to 8 the administrator that there was a problem. 9 The individual would be consulted with. I 10 don't know if there was a counsel on staff 11 there, but there was someone on staff that 12 would say it's been brought to our attention 13 that there's a problem in your past from 14 Paducca, and the person would go, oh, yeah. 15 Usually it would be resolved by them leaving. 16 MR. COHEN: One second, 17 Mr. Klayman. 18 (Witness conferred with counsel) 19 THE WITNESS: We're still talking 20 about the inaugural, sir? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 22 MR. COHEN: You're talking about 267 1 the inaugural, not the campaign? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Campaign. 3 MR. COHEN: Because there's a 4 confusion. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q So this testimony applies to the 7 inaugural? 8 A Nothing to do like that during the 9 campaign, strictly advance. 10 Q You didn't do anything like that on 11 the campaign, only on the inaugural? 12 A Correct. 13 Q If the individual had a background 14 of drug usage, that person would have to 15 leave, correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. I don't understand whether 18 we're talking about the campaign or the 19 inaugural at this point? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: The inaugural. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q If the name check turned up drug 268 1 usage, the person would have to leave, 2 correct? 3 A The only way it would turn up drug 4 use is if the person was arrested. It 5 wouldn't turn up because like the FBI's work 6 would talk about so and so said they saw this 7 person or the person themselves would offer 8 it. A name check would only list if in fact 9 they had been arrested and/or convicted. 10 Q If the arrest concerned drugs, the 11 person would have to leave? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: It wasn't up to me. 15 I don't know to tell you the truth. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q But you understood that to be the 18 practice, correct? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 22 that at all. I don't know what happened. 269 1 BY BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So drug usage was little to any 3 concern to people at the inaugural? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I did not say that. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you saying that there was never 10 anyone that was asked to leave on the basis 11 of drug usage or an arrest related to drug 12 usage? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm saying I'm not 16 aware of it. It wouldn't be something that 17 at that level someone would have consulted 18 with me. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q In fact when you were at The White 21 House drug usage was never a concern to 22 anyone, would it? 270 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: That's absolutely not 4 true. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Was it a great concern? 7 A I think it was a very serious 8 concern for both the Secret Service, FBI, and 9 The White House. I realize it took time for 10 The White House to get on the program, but 11 with the Secret Service and the FBI's hard 12 work, The White House developed a good 13 program -- a good screening program to get on 14 top of that. 15 Q In fact, The White House really 16 didn't care whether people had used drugs, 17 correct? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form, 20 object to lack of relevance. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Correct? 271 1 A I know that's not true. 2 Q So the White House did care that 3 people had used drugs? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: The White House would 7 care if there was a drug issue, and I know 8 that if people were caught somehow either 9 through drug testing or otherwise, that they 10 were dismissed. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q During the time that you worked on 13 the campaign, you met Hillary Clinton? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a trick 17 question. 18 THE WITNESS: I can't recall a 19 specific event where she and I were 20 introduced. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q But you were introduced, correct? 272 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 2 form. 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: As I said, I can't 5 recall a specific event where she and I were 6 introduced. I recall being at the same event 7 with hundreds if not thousands of other 8 people, but I don't recall someone saying, 9 Mrs. Clinton, this is Craig Livingstone or 10 vice versa. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You had talked with Mrs. Clinton 13 during the campaign? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 15 form. 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: Only in the course of 18 my advance work at the State House. You're 19 going to be going outside with your husband a 20 few minutes. The Gores are in the holding 21 room. Would you like something to drink? 22 The stage is about 20 feet long. You're 273 1 going to walk out stage right, proceed stage 2 left. We want you to stand out there and do 3 a big wave with all the families and need you 4 to come back inside. That's about the whole 5 conversation I had with Hillary Clinton 6 during the campaign. 7 Q During the campaign you talked to 8 representatives of Hillary Clinton? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I probably talked to 12 people on her staff or connected to her 13 staff. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You worked with people on her staff 16 or connected to her staff? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: With the purpose of 20 advance, yes. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Who did you work with? 274 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. COHEN: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: Kelly -- I can't 4 remember her last name. Kelly Craighead. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Craighead? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q How's that spelled? 9 A Just like it sounds Craighead. 10 Q One word? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Where is she today? 13 A I believe she is the deputy 14 scheduler for The White House. 15 Q Have you talked to Kelly Craighead 16 in the last three years? 17 A No. 18 Q What did Ms. Craighead ask you to 19 do? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Assist her with 275 1 events for Mrs. Clinton involving advance, 2 everything from getting her bags out of the 3 car to getting her a glass of water. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You had done this on a number of 6 occasions during the campaign? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: Not a number but a 10 few. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q What do you mean by a few? 13 A Two to three. 14 Q What other representative of 15 Hillary Clinton asked you to do something 16 during the campaign? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. COHEN: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: I can't recall. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q But there were other people? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 276 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I said I can't 3 recall. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q No. I'm asking you whether you 6 can't recall that you did anything or whether 7 you can't recall the names of the people. 8 Which is it? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: It's both. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But just generally speaking you had 13 been asked to do a number of tasks by 14 Mrs. Clinton's representatives during the '92 15 campaign? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: Involving advance, 20 events, getting from places A to B. That's 21 it? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 277 1 Q These people expressed their 2 satisfaction with your job performance, 3 correct? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q They were happy with your job 9 performance, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You understood that they conveyed 12 that happiness back to Mrs. Clinton, correct? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I have no way of 16 knowing that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Now you met with Mrs. Clinton more 19 than once during the campaign. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form, 22 mischaracterizes the record. 278 1 MR. COHEN: Join. 2 THE WITNESS: I believe I said that 3 I met with her once that I can recall at the 4 election night victory. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q But you may have met with her other 7 times you just can't recall right now? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 MR. COHEN: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: Only with advance, 12 with events. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So the answer's yes. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I would agree with 18 you. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You did exchange words with 21 Mrs. Clinton more than once? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 279 1 Mischaracterizes the record. 2 THE WITNESS: I have no memory of 3 that, none whatsoever. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You did have contact with 6 Mrs. Clinton or her representatives during 7 the inaugural, correct? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q What contacts did you have? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 11 answered. 12 THE WITNESS: She was obviously 13 very concerned about the events and the image 14 that the inaugural would convey and that she 15 wanted it not to be a closed-in function only 16 for Washington's elite. She wanted as many 17 people from outside the beltway to be there, 18 and she wanted events that people could 19 afford. 20 She wanted events that security was 21 not obtrusive but was safe. In all, I would 22 say that her interest in the inaugural was 280 1 one in which -- of a good patron. She took 2 her responsibilities making sure that it was 3 a fun and safe event for all people. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q She told you this directly, 6 correct? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, she didn't. She 9 told that to a group amassed at the inaugural 10 headquarters. I think it was about a hundred 11 people. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Had you ever had a conversation 14 with her directly, during the inaugural? 15 A I remember a very brief 16 conversation with her assistant, Kelly 17 Craighead, about getting Mrs. Kelly and her 18 friends some hotel rooms or helping them out. 19 That was the President's mom. 20 Q Do you know whether your lawyers, 21 Mr. Cohen or Mr. Turk or people working in 22 that office, have ever talked to the lawyers 281 1 of Mrs. Clinton? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A I have no knowledge of that. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I am sorry. We 7 just went off record. The tape just stopped. 8 I don't know why. Off at 3:48. 9 (Recess) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on 11 video record at 4:00 p.m. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: What was the last 13 question? 14 (The reporter read the record as 15 requested.) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I apologize. We 17 have to stop again. This tape is defective. 18 (Discussion off the record) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q The question was whether your 21 lawyers have ever spoken to Mrs. Clinton's 22 lawyers. 282 1 MR. COHEN: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know. We had 3 a conference out in the hallway. I don't 4 know if they spoke to each other at that time 5 or not. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you know whether they ever spoke 8 before then? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Are you paying your legal fees? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. Relevance. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I'm doing my best to pay my fees. 15 Q Is anyone paying them on your 16 behalf? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 18 THE WITNESS: I had a legal trust 19 for some time, but it was dissolved some time 20 ago. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you use those moneys to pay for 283 1 your legal fees? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Yes? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Did any donors to the Democratic 6 party or the Clinton-Gore campaigns make 7 contributions to that trust? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection as to the 9 form of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't know, sir. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did Nathan Denbo donate money to 13 that trust? 14 A I don't have the records in front 15 of me. 16 Q Are those records public? 17 A I believe we submitted those in 18 response to a subpoena, didn't we, the legal 19 firm dollars supplied in response to a 20 subpoena? 21 MR. COHEN: We produced what was 22 available. 284 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You submitted them to the 3 independent counsel? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: May I confer with 7 counsel for a moment? 8 MR. COHEN: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Off the record. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video 11 record at 4:04, we're back on the video 12 record at 4:04. 13 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. You can 14 answer the question. Are we on the record? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I did not know. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Was the person who administered to 19 that legal defense fund a Walton Chalmers? 20 A That's correct, sir. 21 Q That's one of the people you 22 identified earlier, correct? 285 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Who asked Mr. Chalmers to set up 3 that legal defense fund? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 8 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 9 Exhibit 8. 10 (Livingston Deposition Exhibit 11 No. 8 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q This is a document with a facsimile 15 cover page, Smith, Dawson, and Andrews of 16 August 3, 1995, to Craig Livingstone, 17 affiliation personnel security by Wally 18 Chalmers. 19 I says on the fax cover page, 20 "Mailed 1:05 today, just a start. I'm on 21 break from August 5 to 14. Call me at 22 603-279-5820 if you need anything." and 286 1 there's a letter attached, Bates number 2 LIV-0557. 3 Does this document evidence an 4 effort by Mr. Chalmers and others listed 5 below, trustees James Smith, Raymond 6 Jacobson, and Susan Borecki, B-o-r-e-c-k-i, 7 to set up and administer a legal defense fund 8 on your behalf? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What is 12 your question? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Does this letter evidence the legal 15 defense fund that you're talking about? 16 A I believe it does, yes. 17 Q How much money did you raise? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: Not much. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Roughly speaking. 287 1 A I think under 15,000. 2 Q At the time this letter was 3 written, the legal defense fund was in 4 operation? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't think it was 7 in operation, no. I think this was 8 proposing. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q It was in operation shortly 11 thereafter? 12 A I think that's correct. 13 Q Shortly thereafter within the next 14 few weeks? 15 A I don't know, sir, to be specific. 16 Q Roughly speaking? 17 A Roughly speaking would be fine? 18 Q Roughly speaking -- 19 A Roughly speaking would be fine? 20 Q That's correct. 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 288 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Roughly speaking, within the next 3 few weeks, moneys started to be received by 4 that legal defense fund, correct? 5 A I'm sorry, sir? 6 Q During those next few weeks, legal 7 moneys started to be received by your legal 8 defense fund? 9 A I don't know exactly when, so I'd 10 rather not say. I don't have the records in 11 front of me so I'm not going to say. 12 Q In and around that period? 13 A Again, I don't have the records so 14 I can't say. 15 Q Shortly thereafter? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. Asked and answered. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A I would suspect within a few months 21 would be correct. 22 Q This letter, which is the second 289 1 page, Bates number LIV-0557, which is the 2 letter which was sent out to solicit the 3 funds for your legal defense fund, correct? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: It's a draft 7 apparently. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q But a letter like this was 10 ultimately sent out soliciting the moneys for 11 the legal defense fund? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Now, on or about August 3, 1995, 16 you still worked at The White House, correct? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q You were director of the Office of 19 Personnel Security, correct? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q You were aware at that time, were 22 you not, that federal government officials 290 1 could not solicit money from the public, 2 correct? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection calls for 6 legal conclusion. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can answer. 9 A I don't know that I was aware of 10 that. 11 Q Has anyone ever told you that 12 Federal Government officials can't solicit 13 money from the American public? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. Misstates the law. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever sought an opinion to 21 that effect? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 291 1 of the question. It's vague and ambiguous, 2 unintelligible. 3 THE WITNESS: As I recall, I asked 4 permission how to set it up of my friends 5 that contacted me. They wanted to help me 6 out. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Your friends asked permission from 9 you? 10 A Correct, and I asked someone at The 11 White House if it was acceptable to allow 12 them to do it. 13 Q Who did you ask? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Hillary Clinton? 16 A Absolutely not. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q One of the entities that donated to 20 your legal defense fund was the Lipo Group? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 292 1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 2 seeing them on the list. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q James Reoti (phonetic)? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 7 seeing that. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q John Wang? 10 A I don't remember seeing that. Do 11 you have evidence to show me that that's a 12 fact? 13 Q Anybody from Asia? 14 A Are you reading into the record 15 here that that happened? 16 Q Anybody from Asia? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question and object to the lack of 19 foundation for the last four questions. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Anybody from Asia? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to that 293 1 question also on the grounds that it's 2 offensive. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Why is that 6 offensive? 7 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. Answer the 8 question. 9 THE WITNESS: That question hasn't 10 been asked. He said anybody from Asia. I 11 don't know what that means. It's not a 12 question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Anybody from the region of the 15 world known as Asia? 16 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: Did what? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Donated to your legal defense fund? 21 A I don't believe so. 22 Q Charlie Tree? 294 1 A I don't believe so. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Maggie Williams donated money to 6 your legal defense fund, correct? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I believe she did, 10 very small amount. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q How much did she donate? 13 A I think it was $50. 14 Q At the time she was working for the 15 First Lady, Hillary Clinton? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A You know, I think you've got 21 something there. I think the American people 22 would rise up and say that's the proof that's 295 1 needed. 50 bucks. 2 Q So the answer's yes? 3 A Hardly. 4 Q She was working for Mrs. Clinton, 5 correct? 6 A I don't know if she was at the 7 time. 8 Q You took that as a show of support 9 from Mrs. Clinton, didn't you? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. 13 Maggie's a nice person. I'm tired of you 14 putting words in my mouth. If you have a 15 question to ask me, ask me a question. If 16 you're going to read things into the record 17 for the point of leaking out to people later, 18 I'm sure the judge will take that up with 19 you. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I'm entitled to ask leading 22 questions, Mr. Livingstone. 296 1 MR. COHEN: I'm not so sure that's 2 true, Mr. Klayman. Why don't you go ahead 3 and ask a question? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying he's a 5 friendly witness? 6 MR. COHEN: I don't think you've 7 been given any authorization from the judge. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to get 9 into discussion with your client. He'll just 10 simply answer the questions. 11 THE WITNESS: When I choose to do 12 so. 13 MR. COHEN: Go ahead, Mr. Klayman, 14 why don't you ask a question? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know Webster Hubbell? 17 A I don't know him. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever meet him? 22 A Yes, I have. 297 1 Q Where did you meet him? 2 A I believe at The White House but 3 perhaps as early as election night. 4 Q How did you meet him on election 5 night? 6 A I saw him. I may have given him 7 directions to an event, wished him well, that 8 kind of thing. 9 Q In what context did you meet him at 10 The White House? 11 A I believe I helped him get his pass 12 as a cabinet official. Actually, in his 13 case, he would have been one of the two 14 people from Justice that could have a pass. 15 Q In addition to getting him his pass 16 as an official, did you work with him in any 17 other way? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. It mischaracterizes the 20 testimony. 21 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I did not. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 298 1 Q You are aware that Mr. Hubbell 2 received moneys from the Lipo Group? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question. Relevance. 5 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge 6 of that. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, when you worked on the 9 inauguration, did you meet George 10 Stephanopoulos? 11 A Yes. 12 Q In what context? 13 A He needed something done along the 14 line of advance. 15 Q What did he need doing? 16 A Make sure the press get that shot, 17 riser needs to be a little higher, let's get 18 these political people involved with the 19 President at this particular event, that type 20 of thing. 21 Q Did you work with him on more than 22 one occasion? 299 1 A I would say less than three 2 occasions. 3 Q What were the other two? 4 A Same events. Same things, events. 5 Q Did you have any other contact with 6 James Carville other than what you've just 7 described during the inauguration? 8 A No, sir, I did not. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to that last 10 question. Did you mean to say Carville or 11 Stephanopoulos? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Carville. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When you worked for the 15 inauguration, did you receive any written 16 correspondence from Hillary Clinton or anyone 17 that worked with her? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I can't think of any. 21 MR. COHEN: He answered your 22 question. 300 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't hear him. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I said I 3 couldn't think of any. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did you know any relatives of 6 Hillary Clinton up to the time that you 7 worked on the inauguration? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know of anyone who did know 12 relatives of Hillary Clinton? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I suppose that's 17 possible, but I don't know. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Your mother knew Hillary Clinton, 20 correct? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 301 1 THE WITNESS: That is absurd and 2 it's no. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Your mother had met Hillary 5 Clinton, correct? 6 A That is not true. 7 Q Had anyone from your family ever 8 met her? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: My dad may have met 13 her at The White House. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Under what circumstances? 16 A Social function, photo-op. 17 Q Why was your dad invited to The 18 White House? 19 A He attended a drug and alcohol 20 forum for the President. 21 Q When was that? 22 A I don't recall. 302 1 Q Just what year? 2 A Don't recall. 3 Q Who was your father working for at 4 the time? 5 A Bechtel Corporation. 6 Q What did he do for Bechtel at that 7 point? 8 A For Bechtel, he ran their employee 9 assistance program, which deals with drug and 10 alcohol issues. 11 Q Your father had had contact with 12 The White House before he was invited to the 13 party? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't say 19 that. There was an event for drug and 20 alcohol people. I thought my dad might like 21 to attend, I talked to whatever office is 22 handling it, and invited him, and they said, 303 1 great, let's invite him. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q This was after you were already 4 working at The White House? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Had anyone from your family met 7 Hillary Clinton or any of the Clintons before 8 you began to work at The White House? 9 A No. 10 Q Now, when did you cease working on 11 the inaugural? 12 A When it was over. Maybe a day or 13 two after. 14 Q Did you ever tell anyone that your 15 mother knew Hillary Clinton? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you ever tell Linda Tripp that? 18 A Absolutely not. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. Asked and answered. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever tell Gary Aldrich 304 1 that? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You told Linda Tripp that Hillary 6 Clinton hired you? 7 A No. 8 Q Told Gary Aldrich that Hillary 9 Clinton hired you? 10 A No. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When you were at The White House 15 you sometimes talked into your watch, didn't 16 you? 17 A No. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: If you're speaking 21 about what Ms. Tripp spoke about in her 22 deposition, Ms. Tripp was pretty whacked out 305 1 and I thought it was amusing, because she was 2 always complaining about Mrs. Clinton. 3 And one day I talked into my watch 4 and said to Mrs. Clinton I would come see her 5 immediately. I thought it was hilarious 6 because she went whoa. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q When you say Mrs. Tripp was whacked 9 out, what do you mean? 10 A I think she was a poor employee. I 11 think she was poorly placed. I think she was 12 disloyal, and I think that she was the wrong 13 person at the wrong time. 14 Q You seem to dislike her. Is that 15 accurate? 16 A No, I don't think that's accurate 17 at all. 18 Q When did you first meet Ms. Tripp? 19 A I don't know. I gazed out my 20 window sometimes while working at my desk and 21 would see her four or five different times a 22 day out on the west exec having a cigarette 306 1 and I asked somebody who that was and they 2 said she works in Counsel's Office. I think 3 that's how I first encountered Ms. Tripp. 4 Q In fact, because you didn't like 5 her, that's why you got her FBI file, 6 correct? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, lack of 10 foundation. 11 MR. COHEN: Don't answer. Object 12 to the lack of foundation with that. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Because you thought she was whacked 15 out you thought that gave you the right to 16 get her FBI file, correct? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. Same objection. No 19 foundation. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Correct? 307 1 MR. COHEN: It's a yes-or-no 2 question. 3 THE WITNESS: It's no. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What was it about Ms. Tripp that 6 was disloyal? 7 A She was a gossip. 8 Q How does being a gossip make you 9 disloyal? 10 A I think any person that is loyal 11 would understand that a gossip is disloyal. 12 She talks about other people's problems or 13 feebleness or her issues, her sickness, her 14 health as if it's information that's hers to 15 share with other people, when she should just 16 let the other people deal with it. 17 Q In what context did she do that? 18 A She would talk to co-workers 19 endlessly about it. 20 Q Who did she gossip about? 21 A The co-worker that she happened to 22 be gossiping with at that moment usually. 308 1 Q Who was she talking about in terms 2 of the gossip? 3 A Like I said, other people in the 4 office. 5 Q Did she talk frequently about 6 Mrs. Clinton? 7 A She complained about her. 8 Q What did she complain about? 9 A Just how she ruled The White House. 10 Q What did she say specifically? 11 A She didn't think that it was 12 appropriate the way the First Lady conducted 13 the herself. 14 Q Why wasn't it appropriate, 15 according to Ms. Tripp? 16 A I didn't really get into her it 17 with her. It just annoyed me that she would 18 talk that way, and if she was unhappy, she 19 should have put in for a transfer. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 21 relevancy of the question. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 309 1 Q Did she tell you how Mrs. Clinton 2 ruled The White House? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: She said the way she 5 conducted herself. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever talk to anybody about 8 Ms. Tripp while you were at The White House, 9 her attitude? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Well, it obviously upset you, 15 correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 18 Mischaracterizes the record. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q In fact, you considered Ms. Tripp a 22 security risk, didn't you? 310 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are you aware you're under oath? 7 A Yes, I am. 8 Q That means telling all the truth? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. Mr. Livingstone was sworn 11 in at the outset of this deposition. Do you 12 have a question? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When did you read Linda Tripp's 15 deposition in this case? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q Did you read it on Judicial Watch's 18 Web site? 19 A May have. 20 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp's 21 deposition with your counsel? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection. Instruct 311 1 the witness not to answer the question. 2 THE WITNESS: As I understand it, 3 that's lawyer client privilege conversation. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Not whether you discussed it. 6 MR. COHEN: Objection. Instruct 7 the witness not to answer the question. 8 Attorney-client privilege. I've instructed 9 the witness not to answer. Go ahead. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was there anyone else that you 13 worked with at The White House that gossiped 14 with Ms. Tripp that participated in the 15 discussions? I take it there was? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: There were 19 individuals, but I don't recall their names. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Was one Betsy Pond? 22 A I don't know what the context of 312 1 their conversations were, but they did often 2 have conversations because of the proximity 3 of their work space. 4 Q Now, at the time that you were 5 finishing up in the inaugural, did you seek a 6 position with The White House? 7 A Actually, I didn't think I would 8 try for The White House until I worked on the 9 cabinet get together up at Camp David. I was 10 looking more at other agencies. I think I 11 filled my form for the campaign, I think I 12 filled out several other different agencies. 13 Q You set up an event at Camp David? 14 A I worked on it. I didn't run it. 15 Q What event was that? 16 A Ms. Varney ran it. It was for the 17 newly appointed cabinet secretaries to get 18 together and discuss the President and Vice 19 President's agenda. 20 Q When Ms. Tripp complained that 21 Mrs. Clinton ran The White House, what did 22 you say? 313 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: Something 5 nonthreatening like I thought that 6 Mrs. Clinton was doing a good job. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What was the basis for your saying 9 you thought she was doing a good job? 10 A My personal belief. 11 Q Because you had worked closely with 12 her, correct? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: No, because I 17 observed her from afar like many staff, seen 18 her on TV, seen some of her press remarks, 19 seen some of her speeches in papers, and she 20 seemed to be a woman, a First Lady who was 21 standing up for her constituency and doing a 22 good job. 314 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You had worked directly with her 3 from time to time when you were working at 4 The White House, correct? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 8 THE WITNESS: No. I only worked 9 for her. When she would arrive at an event 10 like the PTA National Meeting, she would show 11 up at the event. I would have been there a 12 day or two prior to that working for 13 arrangements for her arrival, working with 14 the Secret Service for a place for her to 15 hold while preparations were to be ready. 16 Finding out what the group wanted 17 her to say, what the key points of the 18 group -- who the President's name was, the 19 next president's name, making sure we had 20 photo opportunities with the correct 21 individuals, she shook the right hands, she 22 worked the rope line and shook the junior 315 1 people's hands and spent a little bit of time 2 and commented on the PTA agenda and some of 3 the points, so they would feel she was aware 4 of what they were doing. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You say you told Ms. Tripp 7 something nonthreatening. What did you tell 8 her? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 10 Asked and answered. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form 13 asked and answered. 14 THE WITNESS: I have answered that 15 but I'll be happy to answer it again. I 16 thought she was doing a fine job. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You have threatened people in the 19 past, haven't you? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection, Mr. Klayman, 21 to the question. The form of the question is 22 improper as is the impulse behind it. 316 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 A I am not -- unlike you 4 apparently -- I'm not a sinner without 5 committing sinner, and I haven't always been 6 the best person in my life. I have a bit of 7 a temper from time to time. 8 Q The answer's yes? 9 A I get up every morning and pray to 10 God that I'll be a better person the next 11 day. 12 Q How does that answer my question? 13 Did you ever threaten anybody? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. Irrelevant. 16 THE WITNESS: I threatened a 17 woman's dog because this woman who moved in 18 after me sometime launched a campaign of 19 terror and noise and against me. She would 20 sit up on the floor and go speak, speak, 21 speak, and that dog, wanting to be a good dog 22 would speak, speak, speak, and this went on 317 1 for about a year and it really got old, so I 2 filed a complaint. 3 She went around and got all the 4 people in the condo who had bigger places to 5 change the rules after I'd sign the covenant 6 for smaller dogs and it just got out of hand. 7 It was stupid and I regret it and I 8 apologized. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Where were you living at the time? 11 A I was living below her. 12 Q Where? In Washington, D.C.? 13 A I'm sorry. Chevy Chase. 14 Q What year was this? 15 A The year that I screamed. 16 Q The year of the dog? 17 A Thank you for the levity. I 18 appreciate it. I believe, sir, it was 19 in 1995. 20 Q You were working for The White 21 House at the time, correct? 22 A Yes. 318 1 Q You threatened to bash in her face, 2 correct? 3 A No. 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: As I recall, I said 7 that I was going to kick the dog if she 8 didn't keep it quiet, but I did apologize 9 both to her and when the officer came, I told 10 him I worked at The White House and I said 11 this is not behavior becoming someone working 12 at The White House. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q She filed a -- 15 MR. COHEN: Let him finish his 16 answer, Mr. Klayman. 17 THE WITNESS: That I was sorry, and 18 he said fine, we're not going to file a 19 report. She's decided not to file a 20 complaint, but we'll keep this on a little 21 box and if there's a problem again, we'll 22 come out and arrest you. I said you won't 319 1 have a problem. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q She filed a criminal complaint 4 against you? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. No foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe 8 that's true. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q She filed a complaint of any kind? 11 A She called the police. They came. 12 They asked if she wanted to file a complaint; 13 she asked if I had apologized; I said I 14 wouldn't say anything to her or her dog 15 again, and didn't and that was the end of 16 that. 17 Q What is that person's name? 18 MR. COHEN: What person? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q The person whose dog you 21 threatened? 22 A Well, I believe her name was 320 1 Barbara Sable. 2 Q Sable? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q How's that spelled? 5 A S-a-b-l-e. 6 Q What was the address at the time 7 where were you all living? 8 A I was at 6717 Hillendale. I don't 9 know what her address was, but it's a number 10 corresponding to Hillendale. 11 Q In Chevy Chase? 12 A Correct. 13 Q What was the name of the apartment 14 complex? 15 A It's a townhouse community. I 16 don't know. I forgot. It's the corner of 17 Bradley and Hillendale. It's right at the 18 corner. Nice little place. Normal people. 19 Don't yell at each other. 20 Q Now you say she waged a campaign of 21 terror and intimidation against you? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 321 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: Well, sir, I have 3 read so many different characterization of 4 this event, most recently in this heinous 5 book from New York that's now described as an 6 elderly neighbor. 7 This 20 some year old woman, I 8 walked up nicely and walked on her dog -- 9 little dog was going to become a big dog they 10 had a Splinter about 40-pound animals and her 11 answer to me was basically f--- off and as 12 the dog got bigger, she purposely had no 13 carpets on her floors, ran the dog around in 14 little circles and made him bark, and I lost 15 it. 16 What I did was wrong and it was 17 stupid. I'm probably the most publicized 18 backyard over the fence neighbor problem in 19 the nation. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What book were you talking about? 22 Joyce Milton's book? 322 1 A Yes. 2 Q Hillary's Clinton's -- 3 A She described her as an elderly 4 person. 5 Q How old is she or was she? 6 A 25 or 27. 7 Q Show you what I'll ask the court 8 reporter to mark as Exhibit 8. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: 9, I believe. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: 9. 11 (Livingston Deposition Exhibit 12 No. 9 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 THE WITNESS: I would like to say, 15 Mr. Klayman, if I may very briefly, that I 16 know it was wrong. I'm sorry I did it and I 17 moved. I sold my house at less than what I 18 could have gotten for it, and I moved so that 19 it wouldn't happen again. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You were afraid of the woman or the 22 dog? 323 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: It's just time to go. 4 It just wasn't going to get resolved. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Is that a copy of the police report 7 evidencing this incident? 8 A As I read it, it's an event report, 9 not a criminal complaint. 10 Q I said police report. Is this a 11 copy of the police report evidencing this 12 particular event? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Have you ever threatened anyone 15 else? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. Mischaracterizes the 18 testimony. Even here, dogs aren't people. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever threatened anything 21 other than a dog? 22 A I don't know. As I said, I have an 324 1 Irish temper, and I may have spouted off. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 3 form of the answer. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. It's my 5 blood. What can I say. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Looking at the second page of this 8 report, the officer writes, "was walking her 9 dog accompanied by and when she was 10 confronted by Livingstone, Livingstone 11 told if you don't keep that fucking dog 12 quiet, I'm going to beat your face in." You 13 said that, didn't you? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't believe what 17 I said was that but it was certainly 18 something as objectionable as that so I'll 19 take responsibility for that, yes, sir. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q So your prior testimony was not 22 true, correct? 325 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. That's not what 3 Mr. Livingstone testified to. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Correct? 6 A No. 7 MR. COHEN: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Tell me the events leading up to 10 your employment at The White House. How did 11 you get the job? 12 MR. COHEN: Are we done with the 13 dog episode? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: We're done with the 15 dog episode for now. 16 MR. COHEN: Perhaps we'll be lucky 17 enough to come back to it. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Livingstone, can you tell me 20 the events leading up to your employment at 21 The White House? How did you get the job? 22 A I told you, I worked on that event 326 1 at Camp David, and during and after that time 2 I talked with Ms. Christine Varney about the 3 possibility of working at The White House. 4 She said she'd check into it. 5 She made some inquiries I suppose. 6 She told me she did so. She, at one point, 7 told me that there might be a position 8 opening in Counsel's Office, not a great job 9 but administrative job, not a job that I'd 10 probably be interested in, but would I like 11 to talk about it. 12 Q Who was Christine Varney at the 13 time? 14 A She was the President's cabinet 15 secretary. 16 Q When you coordinated that event at 17 Camp David, what specifically did you do? 18 A As I said, I worked on the event. 19 I didn't coordinate it. Part of my job was 20 logistics of getting people to and from Camp 21 David. 22 Q There wasn't anything with regard 327 1 to reviewing background security files or 2 documents, correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q In working on that event at Camp 5 David, you had contact with Hillary Clinton? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 7 form. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't think I did 11 at all. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q But you may have? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 15 form. 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: I'll think about it 19 for a second. No. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You had contact with people on her 22 staff? 328 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I was 5 responsible for contacting Mrs. Clinton's 6 staff either. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q After you spoke with Ms. Varney 9 about this job, what happened after that? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 THE WITNESS: Shortly thereafter I 13 had a meeting with Ms. Cheryl Mills in 14 Counsel's Office. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Was anyone present at that meeting? 17 A I don't believe so. I think it was 18 Cheryl and I. 19 Q Who spoke first, you or Ms. Mills? 20 A I would suspect it would be 21 Ms. Mills. 22 Q What did she say to you? 329 1 A That there was apparently a 2 position that might be available in Counsel's 3 Office. It was a low level job, largely 4 administrative, and as I recall, we may -- at 5 that time we may or may not have met 6 Mr. Foster for a quick, hi, how are you. 7 This is the person I'm considering 8 for the job, and thank you and we were 9 dismissed. 10 Q So you met Mr. Foster in Ms. Mills' 11 office? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know where it 15 happened, but I remember meeting Mr. Foster 16 shortly after meeting Mr. Mills -- 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Ms. Mills. 18 MR. COHEN: Ms. Mills. 19 THE WITNESS: Ms. Mills. Sorry. 20 Again, it was just meet and greet, no 21 conversation. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 330 1 Q Ms. Mills told you that Hillary 2 Clinton recommended you for this job? 3 A Absolutely not. Mrs. Clinton's 4 name didn't come up at all. 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What happened after the meeting 9 with Ms. Mills? 10 A I think I cooled my heels. I heard 11 back from her shortly thereafter. It all 12 happened pretty fast, within a week. I think 13 she then told me that they hadn't made a 14 decision yet. They hadn't made a decision 15 with the associate counsel to the President 16 who would supervise that area either, but 17 that I could go over to Room 84 and introduce 18 myself and try to learn what it is that they 19 do on a cursory level with the anticipation 20 that I might interview for the job once they 21 found an associate counsel to oversee that 22 operation. 331 1 Q Did you ultimately interview for 2 the job? 3 A With Mr. Kennedy. 4 Q When did that happen? 5 A I think a day or two after he 6 started. 7 Q Did you talk to anybody else about 8 the job up to the point of the interview with 9 Mr. Kennedy? 10 A I don't believe so. Maybe a very 11 brief -- these are sensitive documents. We 12 need to keep your nose to the stone, work 13 hard, kind of conversation from Cheryl and 14 Mr. Foster, but that would be it. 15 Q Just for clarification, what was 16 the job that you were interviewing for? 17 A The director of the office. 18 Q Office of what? 19 A I don't think they called it 20 director then. I think they called it 21 special assistant, so the position -- to be 22 precise, I think I interviewed to be the 332 1 special assistant to the counsel to the 2 President for security. 3 Q When you met with Mr. Kennedy, 4 where did you meet with him? 5 A I suspect in his office. I don't 6 recall specifically. 7 Q When you met with him in his 8 office, you saw files laying around, didn't 9 you? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. Object to the 13 vagueness. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 15 Mr. Kennedy impressed me as the kind of 16 lawyer who has a lot of work going on at once 17 and would probably lock it up once he was all 18 done with it, but I wouldn't say lying around 19 in stacks, no. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Where did the word stacks come 22 from? You read his deposition? 333 1 A I've read several of the 2 depositions, yeah. 3 Q When you were in his office, you 4 did see what later you would learn was 5 information obtained from the FBI? You saw 6 those kinds of files, didn't you? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: Honestly, I don't 11 know. I didn't look in his filed folder, so 12 I'm not sure what was in those file folders. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You previously testified that the 15 only thing that ever comes over from the FBI 16 in terms of background security checks are 17 FBI summaries, correct? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 19 of the question as mischaracterizing the 20 witness's testimony. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 334 1 MR. COHEN: I will join that 2 objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Isn't that what you testified to? 5 MR. COHEN: I object. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Would you like me 7 to -- 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want anything 9 more, Mr. Gilligan. That's already enough. 10 Believe me. Certify it. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Very well, 12 Mr. Klayman. I will not correct your error 13 for you. 14 THE WITNESS: I think what I said 15 was that we did not receive files from the 16 FBI. We received summary reports which look 17 like something similar to this document, 18 Exhibit Number 8, two to three pages in 19 length, which would read date of birth, place 20 of birth, Social Security number, education, 21 military service, government employments, 22 marriage, security clearances, education, and 335 1 if any criminal record. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did those summary reports come in 4 any particular types of folders or jackets? 5 A No, sir. They came in little 6 bundles. Just stacked up like this, 7 sometimes with a rubber band around them or 8 in a box sometimes. 9 Q In a box and it was just the 10 documents themselves? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q When they got to The White House, 13 you and your staff had to put them into 14 files, correct? 15 A Actually, when they got to The 16 White House, they went to the associate 17 counsel responsible for receiving them. They 18 would review them, they would determine if 19 they would vet them, they would determine if 20 there were any problems, and then they would 21 send them to the appropriate offices, one of 22 which was my office if they're a White House 336 1 staff volunteer, intern, or one of the 2 several offices that we oversaw that summary 3 background, yes, sir, would come to us, and 4 we would make it a part of the personnel 5 file. 6 Q You'd make up the file? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q What kind of file folders did you 9 use, generally speaking? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: We had a coded 12 system, color-coded, depending on the 13 employee. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Who devised the color coded system? 16 A I believe Ms. Gemmell, the 17 predecessor from Bush and Reagan 18 Administrations. 19 Q Did the color-coded system relate 20 to any particular division of types of FBI 21 summary reports? 22 A Oh, no, sir. It had nothing to do 337 1 with the report at all. It was -- the 2 personnel folders were color-coded as to 3 denote status, whether they're a White House 4 fellow, an AT&T contractor, a military 5 person, senior White House staff, intern, 6 volunteer, et cetera. It had nothing to do 7 with the report itself. 8 Q The file folders did not say FBI on 9 the outside? 10 A Absolutely not. No reason to. 11 Q They didn't say Department of 12 Justice on the outside? 13 A Absolutely not. 14 Q Did all the files come to you 15 before they went upstairs to Kennedy's 16 office? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 18 answered. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Mischaracterizes the 20 record. 21 THE WITNESS: I said the reports 22 would arrive at The White House at 338 1 Mr. Kennedy or the appropriate Counsel's 2 Office, and then the reports would be sent to 3 my office and made into the appropriate 4 color-coded file denoting the person's status 5 at The White House. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Those reports related both to 8 holdover employees and political appointees? 9 A That would be correct. 10 Q Then they'd be sent back to 11 Kennedy's office as needed? 12 A No, sir. We archive the files in 13 our vault. 14 Q Those files could be requested by 15 other offices in The White House? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 17 MR. COHEN: Object for the form of 18 the question. 19 THE WITNESS: Not other offices but 20 other people as appointed by the counsel to 21 the President and all those people were 22 counsel's staff. 339 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You are aware that William Kennedy 3 requested files while you were working there, 4 correct? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q You are aware that he labeled many 7 of those files himself? 8 A Initially, he started a program 9 where he would keep the senior White House 10 staff's folders in his office, for whatever 11 reason, because they were being vetted for 12 other jobs or whatever he would tell me. 13 When he left, he decided to have those also 14 stored in our office. 15 Q You are aware that when you sent up 16 the summary reports to him, that he would 17 sometimes label those summary reports in his 18 own filing system? 19 MR. COHEN: Object to the form. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I was not aware 21 of that. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: The question 340 1 mischaracterizes the record. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You are aware that he kept some of 4 these files in a safe or safes in and around 5 his office? 6 MR. COHEN: Object to the form. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 8 Mischaracterizes the record. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to that 10 objection because that is in effect giving 11 the witness testimony. It's your opinion as 12 to whether he's testifying correctly or not 13 and that signals the witness. I move for 14 sanctions. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Go ahead. 16 MR. COHEN: Denied. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: He can certainly tell 18 whether or not it's mischaracterizing his 19 testimony. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: I didn't say it was 21 mischaracterizing his testimony. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking you to 341 1 stop. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm asking you to 3 stop, Mr. Klayman. Your threats of sanctions 4 are inappropriate. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: They're not threats. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Your promises are 7 inappropriate. I stated my objection 8 succinctly, as required by the federal rules 9 of civil procedure. 10 THE WITNESS: What's the question? 11 MR. COHEN: Is there a question 12 pending? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: You did not because 14 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure say you 15 do not have to object on any objection of 16 substance and that's why making this 17 objection is in fact sanctionable. 18 Whether the court decides to do it 19 or not is another question, but we 20 continually will be moving in that regard. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Very civil of you to 22 say so, Mr. Klayman. 342 1 MR. COHEN: Is there a question? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Are you aware that Mr. Kennedy 4 would label FBI materials himself and file 5 them himself? 6 A I was aware that Mr. Kennedy 7 maintained certain senior level people's 8 files because he thought it was appropriate. 9 I think he had Mr. Foster's file, 10 Mr. Nussbaum's file, my file, and a couple 11 other people's files, and I think he did that 12 for safekeeping and it made sense to me. I 13 didn't question it. 14 Q You were aware that he had 15 Mr. Billy Dale's file, correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 19 mischaracterizes the record. 20 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of it 21 and I am not aware of it. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 343 1 Q You are aware The White House had 2 his file, aren't you? 3 A I am aware of that. 4 Q You've seen Mr. Billy Dale's file, 5 haven't you? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I have. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You've seen the FBI files of other 11 Travel Office workers, correct? 12 A I'm not sure but I think I saw one 13 additional Travel Office file. 14 Q You actually reviewed Mr. Dale's 15 file, didn't you? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I 20 reviewed it. I think I was asked to bring it 21 to Mr. Kennedy. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 344 1 Q When were you asked to bring it to 2 Mr. Kennedy? 3 A I don't recall the specific date. 4 Q Why were you asked to bring it to 5 Mr. Kennedy? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 8 wanted to see it. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you ask him why am I bringing 11 this file? 12 A No, I never did on anybody. 13 Q Did he ask you to bring him the 14 file on John Dreylinger? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q You don't remember? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Barney Brasso? 19 A Don't remember. 20 Q Ralph Mond? 21 A Don't remember. 22 Q Robert van Eimren? 345 1 A Don't remember. 2 Q John McSweeney? 3 A Don't remember. 4 Q Gary Wright? 5 A Don't remember. 6 Q Did he ask anybody else working 7 with you to bring him those files? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 11 memory of him doing that, no. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So you don't know one way or the 14 other? 15 A No, sir. 16 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did he ask you to bring him the 20 file on Chris Emery? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q William Clinger? 346 1 A I don't believe we had a file on 2 William Clinger. I never saw a file on 3 William Clinger that I recall. 4 Q Mrs. Clinton and -- 5 MR. COHEN: Just one second, 6 Mr. Klayman. 7 (Witness conferred with counsel) 8 MR. GILLIGAN: I need a moment to 9 consult with Mr. Cohen, Mr. Klayman. 10 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I don't 12 know specifically who -- if it was 13 Mr. Kennedy. It could have been Chris Serf. 14 It could have been Jane Sherburne better than 15 or one of those people as well. There were 16 different times that Mr. Dale's file was 17 requested. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did Mr. Cohen tell you that answer? 20 A No, absolutely not. 21 Q What were you consulting about 22 before you came up with that? 347 1 MR. COHEN: I will object to that 2 and instruct the witness not to answer on 3 attorney-client privilege grounds. You got 4 the answer you needed. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Who asked you to bring Mr. Dale's 7 file to William Kennedy? 8 A As I said, I'm not sure that 9 Mr. Kennedy requested it. I remember taking 10 it up to Mr. Kennedy or his assistant -- I 11 mean or his replacement, but I also remember 12 towards the end Jane Sherburne or one of 13 those people asking for it. 14 Q Why did they request it? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. I 18 instruct the witness not to answer that on 19 the grounds of attorney-client privilege at 20 least pending an opportunity to consult with 21 him. 22 THE WITNESS: They don't tell me. 348 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Were you ever asked to bring up the 4 file of Deborah A. Mend? 5 A I don't know that name. 6 Q David Quinton Bates? 7 A I don't know that name. 8 Q When I say you, I mean you or 9 anyone in your office? 10 MR. COHEN: I object to that 11 question. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't know the 13 name. Doesn't ring a bell. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Barney Blare Brasso? 16 MR. COHEN: Asked and answered. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Ann Cafe Brock? 19 A Doesn't ring a bell, sir. 20 Q William James Canary? 21 A No. 22 Q Terry Warren Good? 349 1 A I don't recall. 2 Q Marine Hudson? 3 A Don't recall. 4 Q Susana Ludwig? 5 A Don't recall. 6 Q Al Nagy? 7 A I don't know. I just don't know -- 8 what I can talk about on these files. 9 Q You can talk about that. 10 MR. COHEN: Let's take a break. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: What's the question, 12 whether anyone requested that file, Al Nagy? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Whether anyone ever 14 requested or whether you ever took that file 15 up to Mr. Kennedy or anyone else in The White 16 House Counsel's Office? 17 MR. COHEN: Hang on one second. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: We're going to 19 object for that question, Mr. Klayman, on the 20 ground that Mr. Nagy was a current employee 21 at the time, then whether or not his file is 22 requested is irrelevant, as the judge has 350 1 ruled. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: He still has to 3 answer. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: No, he doesn't. The 5 judge has moved it's irrelevant. If you want 6 to ask the judge to change his mind, you're 7 free to do that. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a file that 9 Linda Tripp identified in her deposition as 10 having seen in Kennedy's office. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: So, if he was a 12 current employee at that time, it's 13 irrelevant. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't tell him 15 not to answer? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, I can. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the legal 18 basis for that? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: The judge has issued 20 an order on this very subject and deemed it 21 to be irrelevant and beyond the scope of 22 discovery. 351 1 MR. KLAYMAN: What order is that? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: I believe it's the 3 Mary Anderson order? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: That said I couldn't 5 ask about Al Nagy? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Please, don't be 7 facetious with me, Mr. Klayman. The judge 8 said that said current employees of the 9 Clinton administration are in their files and 10 use of their files is irrelevant and beyond 11 the scope of discovery. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know whether Nagy was a 14 current employee at the time that you worked 15 at The White House? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Was he? 18 A He was. He ran the telephones. 19 Q David Michael Carny? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Same, let's find out 21 if he was current at the time. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know the 352 1 name. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't 3 interrupt my deposition. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm going to 5 interrupt your deposition to the extent that 6 you're asking questions about the files 7 regarding current employees. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You don't get to 9 interrupt me and ask questions over me. That 10 is rude. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, I do. The 12 judge's order says that. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It does? We'll have 14 to talk to the judge about it. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Any time. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't recognize 17 that name, sir. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you let him 19 answer the question? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: He just said he 21 doesn't recognize the name. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 353 1 Q Was he a current employee? 2 A I don't recognize the name, meaning 3 I don't know the person, so I wouldn't know 4 if he's a current employee. 5 Q You are aware that Mari Anderson 6 has testified that she discussed FBI files 7 with the Travel Office on the phone with 8 someone? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 12 mischaracterizes the testimony. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I'm 14 aware of it. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q When you do something like that, 17 you're telling the witness the answer. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: No, I'm not. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, you are. 20 Certify it. I'm asking that you stop. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm telling you I 22 won't. 354 1 MR. KLAYMAN: My last request. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: And that's my last 3 answer. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You're aware that Ms. Anderson 6 discussed FBI files on the phone concerning 7 the Travel Office? 8 A No. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you? 13 A I don't recall. 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of that question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Now, you were aware that the Travel 18 Office was fired, correct? 19 A Yes, I was. 20 Q In fact you were the one that led 21 the Travel Office employees out of The White 22 House that day, correct? 355 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of that question. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't believe 4 that's correct. I don't believe I led them 5 out of the White House. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What did you do that day? 8 A I was instructed to help get their 9 things together. We tried to do so in a 10 decent manner, you know, not throw all their 11 stuff in a box, you know, let them pack it 12 up. It's kind of confusing to us. I don't 13 think I was rude to them or in any way was 14 mean to them. 15 I was instructed to help them go 16 around or have someone help them go around 17 and check out. But it's not like we dragged 18 them out. 19 Q Who instructed you to do that? 20 A Mr. David Watkins. 21 Q He told you that that was the 22 instruction of Hillary Clinton, correct? 356 1 A No, sir, he did not. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: He absolutely didn't 5 mention her name at all in any context. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You are aware that 7 Mrs. Clinton is the one who ordered the 8 firing of The White House Travel Office. 9 THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge 10 of that. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You took the file of Billy Dale to 16 The White House counsel's office before he 17 was fired, correct? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q You took the file of Billy Dale to 20 The White House Counsel's Office for a 21 meeting that took place at The White House 22 Counsel's Office, correct? 357 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 5 Mr. Klayman, I had reposited over 10,000 6 personnel files, and I can't possibly 7 remember every single action that we did with 8 a file -- personnel file. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q When you were in the process of 11 reviewing FBI summary reports that came over 12 from the The White House, you did do that, 13 didn't you? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of that question. 16 THE WITNESS: After associate 17 counsel had vetted them, they would send them 18 to us for their permanent passes. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Associate counsel being William 21 Kennedy? 22 A Or Beth Nolan, et cetera, et 358 1 cetera. 2 Q You would review those summary 3 reports from time to time? 4 A As I was instructed to do, yes. 5 Q Sometimes you would joke with 6 people in The White House that you knew about 7 their background, correct? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think I 11 would joke with people at The White House. I 12 think in the course of three and a half years 13 I made a couple of comments for which I was 14 reprimanded for. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Who did you make those comments to? 17 A To a woman. I can't talk to you 18 about what, but it was a half-hearted prank 19 that she had done and I said something like, 20 we're not going to have that here at The 21 White House, and she took that as an 22 inappropriate comment. On second thought, I 359 1 agreed it was. It certainly could have been 2 done in the context of doing it in my office 3 rather than at lunch, and I realized my 4 error, and I tried not to do that again. 5 Q You knew about the prank because 6 you had looked at her summary report, 7 correct? 8 A As I stated before -- which was the 9 normal course of my duties. 10 Q Who was the woman that complained? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: Don't know. Forgot. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Never mind. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You were upset when you were 16 reprimanded for that, weren't you? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I was upset when I 20 was reprimanded for it? I think I was upset 21 for letting it happen. 22 Q Who reprimanded you? 360 1 A If I got reprimanded at all, it was 2 by Ms. Liverman in a hallway in a car port 3 co. She said, Craig, we shouldn't do things 4 like that. It's not going to happen again. 5 If you call that a reprimand, I gues I was 6 reprimanded. 7 Q Ms. Liverman worked for Hillary 8 Clinton, at that time, correct? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I believe she worked 12 for Ms. Clinton at some time. I don't know 13 if she did at that time in fact work for 14 Ms. Clinton. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What time was this? 17 A I don't know. I don't remember. 18 It was early in the administration. 19 Q Ms. Liverman told you how she found 20 out you had done that? 21 A She said the individual complained. 22 Q How did she learn that the 361 1 individual had complained? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 5 assume she told her. I don't know. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ask Ms. Liverman, why is it 8 you're reprimanding me? 9 A No. Why would I do that? 10 Q Did you consider it Ms. Liverman's 11 duty and responsibility to reprimand you? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I thought 15 Ms. Liverman was a senior member of White 16 House staff and if she said not to do 17 something or to do something I would think it 18 appropriate. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You didn't question her authority 21 to reprimand you? 22 A No. 362 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Because you understood you were 6 working for Hillary Clinton, correct? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 10 THE WITNESS: No, that's not 11 correct. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Were you reprimanded on another 14 occasion? 15 A I don't recall any other occasions. 16 Q Now, getting back to the issue of 17 FBI summaries, if there was a problem with an 18 individual whose FBI summary was obtained in 19 terms of his security check, his background 20 check, The White House could request the 21 entire file from the FBI, correct? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 363 1 of the question. The predicate was 2 unintelligible. 3 THE WITNESS: As I recall, the 4 standard procedure would be to talk to 5 Mr. Aldrich or Mr. Sculimbrene about the 6 issue whether or not they could do a 7 reinvestigation or if they thought there was 8 additional information in the form of a 9 three -- I believe it's a 302, that could be 10 supplied, but it was very rare that that 11 happened. 12 I don't recall it happening that 13 much on my level at all. I mean, what we 14 would do is we would go back and ask Jim 15 Burke if they would do a limited review. I'm 16 not sure what the correct FBI term is, but it 17 was a -- they went back and took a relook, 18 for lack of a better term, at a specific 19 instance. 20 BY BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q In that context, the entire FBI 22 file could be brought over from the FBI to 364 1 The White House, correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I never saw that 6 happen, not once. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q But you know it could have? 9 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I never saw it 12 happen, not once. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You're aware Mr. Kennedy 15 sometimes ÄÄÄÄ up political appointees? 16 A I'm not aware of that. 17 Q Are you refuting that? 18 A No, sir. You said I'm aware. You 19 made a statement, not a question and I'm 20 saying I'm not aware of it. 21 Q You have reviewed his deposition, 22 correct? 365 1 A Parts of it. 2 Q You did see his testimony to that 3 effect, correct? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Now, when you interviewed with 8 Mr. Kennedy, what did he tell you about the 9 job that you were being considered for? 10 11 A That it was largely administrative. 12 He was a lawyer and I was the not so 13 glorified paralegal. That he would make the 14 decisions on suitability for access, 15 suitability for employment, suitability for 16 clearances; however, from time to time that 17 he would need my assistance when a person had 18 -- and I assume I can talk about these issues 19 in the hypothetical sense, but if somebody 20 had an outstanding traffic warrant or didn't 21 change their license plates or had a 22 complaint that could be resolved I was told 366 1 to talk to that individual, get it resolved, 2 get it in writing, put it in their file, get 3 it back to him for clearance. 4 Q What else did he tell you about 5 your prospective job? 6 A He felt it important that we get 7 appropriate training, particularly Mari and 8 then eventually Lisa on storage of files. 9 That's why we wanted Ms. Gemmell, who had 10 worked in that office for 12 years, to stay 11 over and train the staff and myself so that 12 we would have the appropriate knowledge in 13 storing the information that we had in that 14 office. 15 Q And he told you he wanted a loyal 16 person, correct? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe 20 that word came up. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q He told you he wanted someone who 367 1 would follow instructions, correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I think he told me 5 that he wanted someone that would follow 6 instructions meaning that within the spirit 7 of doing the right thing in my office, to 8 follow the instructions, to do things that he 9 wanted, that that mission was accomplished, 10 that things were done correctly. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q And he told you that he wanted 13 someone who could keep matters confidential, 14 correct? 15 A Yes, he did. 16 Q He told you confidentiality was 17 very important, correct? 18 A Yes, he did. 19 Q And he told you that you were not 20 to discuss about anything that you were going 21 to work on outside of The White House, 22 correct? 368 1 A He said we should do our best not 2 to do that. 3 Q And during that meeting, he told 4 you that he had worked with Hillary Clinton 5 at the Rose Law Firm before he came to The 6 White House? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it 10 was during that meeting, but I came to learn 11 that at some point. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q How did you come to learn that? 14 A I think it was pretty common 15 knowledge. I was an employee of Counsel's 16 Office, albeit a lower one. I was an 17 employee, and I had overheard lawyers talking 18 about it. I think I read it in the 19 Washington Post, that he was a managing 20 partner or partner in the firm. 21 Q And Mr. Kennedy told you that he 22 was working in The White House counsel's 369 1 office at the direction of Hillary, correct? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't recall 7 specifically. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q So he may have said that? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I'll just say I don't 14 recall specifically. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Well, you recall generally, 17 correct? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm afraid it's my 21 assumption and I don't recall him saying. I 22 just think it's my assumption since they both 370 1 worked at the firm. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So it's your assumption that he was 4 working at the direction of Hillary Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I just would rather 9 not characterize it in any way other than I 10 know they worked at the firm and he was in a 11 senior capacity at the firm. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So based upon that fact you assumed 14 that when Mr. Kennedy was asking you to do 15 something that he was in fact working under 16 the direction of Hillary Clinton, that was 17 your assumption? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No, sir, that 371 1 wouldn't be my impression at all. I 2 understood Mr. Foster to report to 3 Mr. Nussbaum and I understood Mr. Nussbaum 4 reported to the chief of staff. 5 Q But you understood that Hillary 6 Clinton did have input into the workings of 7 The White House Counsel's Office, correct? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form, the 9 vagueness of that question. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MR. COHEN: Join. 12 THE WITNESS: I think to the extent 13 that it was befitting of the First Lady's 14 duties as First Lady she was interested in 15 the goings on at The White House. 16 Q And you were aware that she was 17 specifically interested in the goings on in 18 The White House Counsel's Office? That was 19 your understanding? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 372 1 Q Correct? 2 A I'm not aware of it, no. 3 Q That was your assumption? 4 A Again, I just don't want you to 5 characterize for me. 6 Q It's not a question of my 7 characterizing for you. I'm asking what you 8 believed at the time. You believed that 9 William Kennedy was working at the direction 10 of Hillary Clinton? 11 A No, I don't believe that. 12 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 13 answered. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q And on what basis don't you believe 17 that as of this moment? 18 A Because I have no knowledge of it. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of that question. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 22 of that question. 373 1 THE WITNESS: You've asked me that 2 question about ten times now and I've done my 3 best to answer it. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You've answered it differently ten 6 times. 7 MR. COHEN: I object to that, 8 Mr. Klayman. That's badgering the witness 9 and it's also untrue. Go ahead. It's not a 10 question. Do you have a question to ask the 11 witness? Why don't you ask it? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You stated that that was your 14 assumption earlier, correct? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection, 16 mischaracterizes the testimony. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q During the conversation with 20 Mr. Kennedy, Hillary Clinton's name did come 21 up? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection. 374 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Correct? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 4 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 5 answered. 6 THE WITNESS: Mrs. Clinton's name 7 did not come up. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q During the course of your working 10 with Bill Kennedy, her name did come up from 11 time to time? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And in what context did it come up? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: He enjoyed working 17 with her back in Little Rock, how sad she was 18 when Vince took his life, stuff like that, 19 normal stuff. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You did see Hillary Clinton in The 22 White House Counsel's Office from time to 375 1 time, didn't you? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I saw her coming and 5 going. Her personal office is adjacent to 6 that office. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q So you saw her in The White House 9 Counsel's Office? 10 MR. COHEN: Same objection. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: Her body physically 13 in, yes, I did. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q And you saw her frequently in that 16 office, correct? 17 A Frequently, no. I wasn't in the 18 office frequently. 19 Q You saw her more than five times in 20 that office? 21 A In the course of three and a half 22 years, yeah, I'd say that's correct. 376 1 Q You saw her more than ten times? 2 A I don't think so. 3 Q You're aware that Mrs. Clinton 4 sometimes called that office? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't have any 8 reason to know that. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And you were aware that Linda Tripp 11 reached her expressed opinion that 12 Mrs. Clinton ruled the school because she had 13 had contact with Mrs. Clinton, correct? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of that question. I don't know where rule 16 the school comes from. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 19 Q He's read her deposition 20 transcript. You saw that expression in her 21 deposition transcript. Mrs. Clinton ruled 22 the school, according to Linda Tripp, 377 1 correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: What is the question 5 you want to ask me? 6 MR. COHEN: The question is did you 7 see in Linda Tripp's deposition she ruled the 8 school? 9 THE WITNESS: Something like that, 10 yes. 11 Q And you are aware that Linda Tripp 12 came to that on conclusion based on her 13 contact with Mrs. Clinton? 14 A In the times that I saw 15 Mrs. Clinton or anybody important in the 16 Counsel's Office, none of them ever were 17 talking to Linda Tripp. 18 Q That's not my question. 19 A Well, I'm letting you know. No one 20 ever talked to Linda Tripp that I ever saw, 21 period. 22 Q Why are you happy to answer that 378 1 question? 2 A Because that's not true. She 3 portrays herself as some insider and it's 4 just silly and untrue. 5 Q Did you care whether Mrs. Clinton 6 is implicated in the Filegate controversy? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the 11 question means. 12 Q Suppose Mrs. Clinton was indicted 13 for the Filegate controversy, would you care? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to form, lack 16 of relevance. 17 THE WITNESS: I think you should 18 take that to the judge. I don't want to 19 answer that question. If the judge wants me 20 to answer that question, I'll be happy to. 21 Q You feel loyalty towards 22 Mrs. Clinton, don't you? 379 1 A I think she's a fine human being. 2 Q So the answer's yes? 3 A I didn't say that. 4 Q I asked you and then answer the 5 question? 6 A I did. I think she's a fine 7 person. 8 Q Do you feel loyalty towards her, 9 yes or no? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I can say she's a 12 fine person. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You have to answer. 15 A I did. You just don't like my 16 answer. 17 Q Does that mean yes? 18 A It means I think she's a fine 19 person. 20 Q Does that mean yes? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: It means I think 380 1 she's a fine person. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Does that mean you feel loyalty 4 towards her? 5 MR. COHEN: Asked and answered six 6 times. You've asked a question. He's given 7 you an answer. If you're not satisfied with 8 the answer, you can ask Judge Lamberth to 9 have him answer the specific question whether 10 he feels loyal because his answer that he 11 thinks she's a fine person is not 12 satisfactory. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Now, you feel beholden to 16 Mrs. Clinton, don't you. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't 20 characterize it as that. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q How would you characterize that? 381 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: In my limited 3 exposure to Mrs. Clinton, I think she's a 4 fine person. 5 Q Is that all you're going to say, 6 she's a fine person? 7 A I think it says it all. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. Why don't you ask him a 10 question and he'll answer your questions? 11 Q Now, do you feel as if Mrs. Clinton 12 could harm you if you testified negatively to 13 her? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm not even going to 18 justify that with an answer. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever been threatened by 22 Mrs. Clinton? 382 1 MR. COHEN: Stop one second, 2 Mr. Klayman. 3 (Witness conferred with counsel) 4 MR. COHEN: Why don't you read back 5 the last question? 6 THE WITNESS: On advice of counsel, 7 I will try and broaden my answer to I think 8 she's a fine person. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Should I go back to square one? 11 A No, whichever's good for you. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: What question are you 13 letting him answer, Mr. Cohen? 14 THE WITNESS: He's not letting me 15 answer. He's instructing me that for my own 16 good it would probably be good to be more 17 cooperative with your endless questions on 18 Mrs. Clinton. 19 Q Let's start over again. Do you 20 feel loyal to Mrs. Clinton? 21 A I don't feel loyal or disloyal. 22 Q What do you feel? 383 1 A I feel she's a fine person. That's 2 an answer. 3 Q That's how you're broadening your 4 response? 5 A Sure. It's not a question of 6 loyalty. My feelings for her is that she's a 7 person I read about in the paper, and I think 8 she's doing a good job. That's it. I have 9 nothing to do with Mrs. Clinton any more. I 10 haven't in three years had nothing to do with 11 Mrs. Clinton. 12 Q If you implicate Mrs. Clinton in 13 Filegate -- 14 A There's nothing to implicate. No 15 crime was committed. 16 Q If you say something negative about 17 her is it your belief that you can be 18 retaliated against? What do you form that 19 belief on? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to the 21 question. 22 THE WITNESS: On the fact that 384 1 she's a fine person. I don't think that's 2 what Mrs. Clinton's about. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q And how have you come to learn that 5 she's a fine person? 6 A I have observed her. 7 Q Because you've worked closely with 8 her, correct? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. Asked and answered. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I think we've talked 13 about many times I've performed advance or 14 seen her at The White House at functions and 15 she seems to be a caring, concerned 16 individual who likes to tell people hi and 17 make them feel good about themselves and I 18 admire that. 19 Q Have you ever been threatened by 20 anybody from The White House? 21 A Nope. 22 Q Have you been threatened by anyone 385 1 on behalf of The White House? 2 A Nope. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 4 of these questions. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Do you form an opinion of everyone 7 based upon visual observations at public 8 functions? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, let's see, 12 Mr. Klayman, I'm a Christian and God tells me 13 that unless I have reason otherwise to 14 suspect it people are fine persons. So on 15 that basis alone I would assume Ms. Clinton 16 is a fine person because that's what my lord 17 tells me to think about people. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you do that analysis with the 20 woman at your apartment? 21 A No, unfortunately, I didn't. 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 386 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: As I said I prayed to 3 God to be a better person. Unfortunately. I 4 wasn't. 5 MR. COHEN: Why don't you ask 6 questions that are not abusive that might 7 have something to do with that case? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I take issue with 9 that. 10 MR. COHEN: That last question was 11 hardly advancing the ball, but go ahead. Ask 12 your questions. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When you met with Mr. Kennedy, he 15 told you that your function was to procure 16 FBI materials for him to gather information 17 on Republicans, correct? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 21 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 387 1 Q When you met with Mr. Kennedy, he 2 told you that your function was to gather 3 information on Republicans so in case they 4 ever made accusations against The White 5 House, you'd have something to throw back in 6 exchange, correct? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the lack of foundation. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: Your question, if it 11 is what it is -- 12 MR. COHEN: It's a yes-or-no 13 question. 14 THE WITNESS: It's no. It's 15 despicable and it's no. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q When you worked for the Democratic 18 National Committee you actually did do 19 opposition research, didn't you? 20 A No, I didn't do opposition 21 research. 22 Q In the course of your various 388 1 political activities over time you gathered 2 information on political adversaries for the 3 people you worked for, correct? 4 A Not once, wrong. 5 Q You worked for people who did 6 gather that information, did you not? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: Sure did. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that information 12 obtained from the FBI by the Clinton White 13 House was loaded on to computer? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 17 Lack of foundation. 18 MR. COHEN: Lack of foundation. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of 20 that. 21 MR. COHEN: Before you go on, if 22 you're going to start going into computer 389 1 uploading of information I want to take a 2 five-minute break. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Why a five-minute 4 break? Are you going to talk to him about 5 the testimony? 6 MR. COHEN: No. If you want to 7 join me in the men's room you'll see why I 8 need to take a five-minute break. I object 9 to the implication that I have in any way 10 instructed Mr. Livingstone how to answer a 11 question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: It's established in 13 this deposition. 14 MR. COHEN: It's hardly 15 established. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: By video. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm not leaving the 18 room. Here I am. Don't turn it off. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 20 video record at 5:18. 21 (Recess) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 390 1 video record at 5:26. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q During that meeting with Bill 4 Kennedy he told you that you were recommended 5 for the job by Hillary Clinton, correct? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: No, he did not. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Others in The White House told you 11 that, correct? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I have subsequently 16 heard that, but not back then at that time. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Who did you hear that from? 19 A Mr. Aldrich's book, conservative 20 radio, that type of thing. 21 Q Before you were formally offered 22 the job, you did talk to people in 391 1 Mrs. Clinton's office to recommend you, 2 correct? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. It's 7 certainly possible, sir, that I did. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q And you asked them to get word to 10 Mrs. Clinton to recommend you? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. 14 No, I think it was more along the lines I 15 knew Maggie Williams slightly or well enough 16 to say I'd like to work at The White House. 17 Could she put a word in with me? I thought 18 she was good friends with Vince Foster. 19 Could she put a word in for me, that kind of 20 thing, not Ms. Clinton, with Counsel's 21 Office. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 392 1 Q Did you ask George Stephanopolous 2 for a recommendation? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: For my job? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Yes. 7 A No. 8 Q Who did you ask for recommendations 9 for your job? 10 A I asked Mr. Eli SÄÄÄÄl, primarily. 11 He was the -- I think he was the finance 12 director of the campaign. I can't remember 13 his exact title, but I knew him from the Hart 14 campaigns and the Clinton campaign and had 15 asked him to sponsor me. I had asked 16 Christine Varney, the cabinet secretary, Iris 17 Burnett, some other people that knew people 18 on the fringe. 19 Q Anyone else? 20 A Not that I can recall, sir. 21 Q Now, you told Special Agent 22 Sculimbrene that you got to The White House 393 1 through your mother, correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: No, that's not 5 correct. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And you told him that your mother 8 knew Hillary Clinton, correct? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: No, that's not 12 correct because it's not true. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q And you told David Watkins that you 15 were hired by Hillary, correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. Lack of foundation. 18 THE WITNESS: No. I can't imagine 19 having a conversation like that with David 20 Watkins. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q And you told gather Aldrich that 394 1 you were hired by Hillary Clinton, correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. Lack of foundation. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't tell 5 Gary Aldrich any such thing. 6 Q And you told Gary Aldrich that your 7 mother knew Hillary Clinton, correct? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form, 9 lack of foundation. 10 THE WITNESS: I did not. 11 Q And you told Linda Tripp Hillary 12 hired you? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question. Lack of foundation. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q And you see told William Kennedy 18 that Hillary Clinton had hired you, correct? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. Lack of foundation. 21 THE WITNESS: No, and I think all 22 these things would be absurd because all 395 1 these people could just ask, with the 2 exception of Ms. Tripp who couldn't ask 3 Ms. Clinton, but all these other people could 4 have asked, hey, Craig says you hired him. 5 Is that true? It would be absurd and they 6 would ask that. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You're saying they would ask 9 Mrs. Clinton that? 10 A Yeah. I think that substantiates 11 that I did not ask that question. 12 Q Are you saying that Mr. Sculimbrene 13 can just pick up the phone today and ask 14 Mrs. Clinton? 15 A He could verify that. Not today, 16 no. 17 Q You told Bernard Nussbuam that 18 Hillary had strongly recommended you, 19 correct? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 21 of the question. Lack of foundation. 22 THE WITNESS: I didn't talk to 396 1 Bernard Nussbuam about my job. I don't 2 remember him having anything to do with my 3 hiring. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You don't know whether Hillary 6 Clinton told Mr. Kennedy to hire you without 7 your ever being advised of it, do you? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. Lack of foundation. 10 Relevance. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You don't know whether there's 16 something about you Mrs. Clinton liked and 17 that's why she wanted you hired, correct? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of that question. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know that she 21 wanted me hired. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 397 1 Q You don't know one way or the 2 other? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Did you ever hear anyone say that 5 you were hired because of your past, because 6 they could use that past against you if 7 necessary? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Has that ever crossed your mind? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of that question. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Are you aware that Kennedy got your 18 FBI file? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You are aware of that, aren't you? 398 1 A I believe that he stored it, yeah. 2 Q How did you find that out? 3 A I just believe that he stored -- as 4 I said earlier today, he stored Vince Foster, 5 Mr. Nussbaum, and my file. 6 Q And why did he do that? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 8 THE WITNESS: So they wouldn't be 9 in my file cabinet, I guess, my vault. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Are you aware that Mr. Michael 12 Casey testified that you had conducted 13 opposition research in working on the Hart 14 campaign? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. Relevance. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm aware of it 18 because it was -- 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Dennis Casey, I'm sorry. 21 A It was read shortly around the time 22 when then Congressman Clinger read my BI from 399 1 the well of Congress knowing full well he 2 couldn't be sued or actions taken against him 3 when he violated my constitutional rights. 4 Around that time they trotted up Mr. Casey's 5 -- what do they call it up there? -- 6 interview, and I said under oath bring him up 7 here under oath and see what he has to say. 8 You know what? They never brought him up 9 because it's not true. 10 Q Is that when you got Clinger's 11 file? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I was no longer at 16 The White House. 17 Q Is that when The White House got 18 the file? 19 A How would I know that? That was 20 the day I resigned. 21 MR. COHEN: Objection for the form 22 of the question. Do you have any foundation 400 1 for that question? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Why don't you 3 read the same Web site your client's reading? 4 MR. COHEN: The Judicial Watch web 5 site? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, Linda Tripp's 7 deposition. 8 MR. COHEN: I'll be sure to check 9 it out. Fascinating reading, I'm sure. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you remember having a 12 conversation with Bill SÄÄÄÄn of the 13 Washington Times? 14 A Vaguely. 15 Q When did that occur? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q And you remember telling Bill 18 SÄÄÄÄn or you remember Bill SÄÄÄÄn asking you 19 whether FBI materials were ever loaded on to 20 White House computer? 21 A It's possible. I don't recall. 22 MR. COHEN: It's possible that he 401 1 asked that question? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you remember a conversation in 5 or around July 21, 1998? 6 A That sounds about right. 7 Q And do you remember you saying to 8 Bill SÄÄÄÄn some of those names may very well 9 be people that the FBI sent over by accident? 10 Certainly dozens of those names were 11 perfectly okay? 12 MR. COHEN: I object. If you're 13 reading from some newspaper report -- 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you remember saying something 16 like that? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 18 of the question. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. If you're 20 reading from newspaper report from Bill 21 SÄÄÄÄn from the Times you can put in front of 22 Mr. Livingstone. 402 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to your 2 putting it on the record and messing up my 3 question. 4 MR. COHEN: It's an objectionable 5 question. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That's an 7 objectionable objection and certify it. 8 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. Answer the 9 question. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the 11 question is. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you remember saying anything to 14 that effect to Mr. SÄÄÄÄn? 15 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 16 the question. 17 THE WITNESS: I think I remember 18 talking to Mr. SÄÄÄÄn without respect to 19 whatever it is you have in front of you that 20 I can't see. I think my conversation with 21 Mr. SÄÄÄÄn was along the lines that -- I 22 think it was in response to the Washington 403 1 Times running this big long list of names and 2 saying how absurd it was to just have people 3 like James Carville and Betty Curry as 4 people's files that were mistakenly received 5 background data or summary reports from the 6 FBI because they're current employees of The 7 White House. So why do they list them in 8 this list of purported 1,000 people? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q James Carville was a current 11 employee of The White House? 12 A He was at the time that his file 13 was there. 14 Q He was directly employed by The 15 White House? 16 A Not employed, sir. You know what I 17 mean. What I said earlier, he was a full 18 field investigation. He was an advisor to 19 the President. He had a pass. He was an 20 active person at The White House, not 21 employed. I apologize. That's not what I 22 meant to say. 404 1 Q Did you order up Carville's file? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I think I answered 5 the question, but I'll be happy to answer it 6 again. When Mr. Carville was an advisor to 7 the President, it was determined that all the 8 advisors to the President that had regular 9 access and wanted a pass had to undergo the 10 same lengthy FBI background check and IRS 11 check that all staffers undergo. That's why 12 we had Mr. Carville's background report. 13 That's why he has a file at The White House. 14 Q Was Carville's file obtained so you 15 could use it for blackmail against him if he 16 stepped out of line? 17 MR. COHEN: Object to the form, 18 lack of foundation. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 20 Complete lack of foundation. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 405 1 Q Was there a concern about 2 Carville's pass? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question and hold on for these guys -- 5 THE WITNESS: No. As I've said 6 several times and I'm not going to say it 7 again, he had to do it, sir, because all 8 political advisors are instructed to do so if 9 they wanted to continue to have regular 10 access to The White House. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Is it not true that Carville and 13 other consultants were only investigated 14 after complaints issued about their White 15 House access? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 17 form and to the vagueness. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 A I don't know the ultimate reason 22 why they did it. I just think it was a good 406 1 reason and they complied willingly and 2 quickly. 3 Q Carville ultimately lost his White 4 House pass, did he not? 5 A They all did. 6 Q Now, you talked to Mr. SÄÄÄÄn and 7 he asked you whether Tripp saw fellow 8 employees copying FBI files into The White 9 House computer? You remember him asking you 10 that, don't you? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of that question. 13 THE WITNESS: Something along those 14 lines. 15 Q And you responded there might be 16 some logical explanation? 17 A Yeah. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I did. Logical 20 explanation would be if a group of young 21 attorneys that were detailed to Counsel's 22 Office were in charge of filling ambassador 407 1 or judgeships or whatever it is they fill, if 2 they had to go through and set up on a PC Bob 3 Smith, education checks out, no criminal 4 record, professional associations check out, 5 whatever, taking that off of the BI would be 6 completely consistent with what Counsel's 7 Office does for the President of the United 8 States in his duties. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Now, you said I can see a secretary 11 or some poor intern being relegated to typing 12 up somebody's information on the computer so 13 that the President could read it or the chief 14 of staff could read it. That's an accurate 15 statement, correct? 16 A Well, I think that's an inaccurate 17 statement to my reply, which was that the 18 information would be provided might be put on 19 a computer to be downloaded and printed in a 20 condensed summary report or briefing report, 21 as they were called, for the chief of staff 22 and, if the President was involved, the 408 1 President. 2 Q And you are aware of that actually 3 having occurred when you worked at The White 4 House, correct? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir. 7 I'm not aware that it actually occurred. I'm 8 only of the opinion that if that in fact 9 happened that would make sense. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And you are aware that information 12 from more than one FBI summary report or file 13 was loaded on to computer at the White House? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. Lack of foundation. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 18 knowledge of that. We didn't do that in our 19 office so I don't have knowledge of other 20 offices. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know whether Betsy PÄÄn did 409 1 that in The White House Counsel's Office? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 3 answered. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q One way or the other? 6 A I don't know, sir. 7 Q Have you ever reviewed the 8 testimony of Lisa Wetzl? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q If I was to tell you that she 11 testified the only information that was 12 entered was date information and pass type 13 and things like that, would that refresh your 14 recollection? 15 A Well, that wouldn't be information 16 from an FBI BI then, would it? 17 Q How do you know that? 18 A Why would the FBI have pass 19 information? That's generated by the Secret 20 Service. 21 Q So are you aware of Ms. Wetzl's 22 testimony to that effect? 410 1 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 2 answered. Other than you having just 3 purported to have read it? Is that the 4 question? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking if it 6 refreshes his recollection. 7 MR. COHEN: That was not the 8 question you asked him. What's the question? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Does that refresh your recollection 11 as to whether Lisa Wetzl has testified to 12 that effect? 13 A No, sir, it does not. 14 Q You are aware that FBI file 15 information was entered into a security 16 tracking database? 17 A I am aware that birth dates were 18 entered into -- did you say security tracking 19 database? -- that date of birth, Social 20 Security number, date of BI completion, date 21 of IRS clearance, information along that line 22 went into a private computer that only my 411 1 office and Charles Easley, the director of 2 security for the office of information 3 management, had access to. 4 Q And you are aware that FBI 5 information from Republican files was entered 6 into that database? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of 10 that. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Information from the Travel Office 13 workers was entered into that database? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that 17 but again it wouldn't be anything that would 18 be damaging. It would be strictly their 19 name, date of birth, place of birth, the BI 20 completion date, the IRS completion date, and 21 if they had any security clearances. Hardly 22 anything that would be damaging to anyone. 412 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So it's quite plausible that it was 3 entered into a database? 4 A I didn't say that. I was merely 5 offering an explanation. 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Are you aware that the FBI summary 11 report or file of Dennis Sculimbrene was 12 obtained by The White House? 13 A I have read that. 14 Q Do you have any firsthand knowledge 15 of that? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q You don't know one way or the 18 other? 19 A It seems entirely appropriate to 20 me. Mr. Sculimbrene was a pass holder at The 21 White House. There was a tradition, 22 apparently, that the FBI, unlike anybody else 413 1 that had a pass at The White House, didn't 2 have to submit their credentials properly to 3 The White House. 4 I thought that that was 5 nonsensical. I discussed it with his 6 superiors at the Bureau. They agreed and my 7 main concern was that they had their 8 five-year reinvestigation just like everybody 9 else did because I was finding out that 10 throughout the government that FBI and the 11 CIA and numerous amounts of people had not 12 had their appropriate five-year investigation 13 and that frightened me. 14 Q Now, you stated that you obtained 15 Billy Dale's FBI file in December of '93 16 because he needed access to The White House, 17 correct? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 20 form. 21 MR. COHEN: That completely 22 mischaracterizes the prior testimony. 414 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A I don't believe I testified that at 5 all. 6 Q Well, what did you testify to? 7 A I believe that -- 8 MR. COHEN: Well, ask a question. 9 What did you testify to is not a question. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What did you testify to? 12 MR. COHEN: That's not a question. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, it is. 14 You can respond. 15 MR. COHEN: About what? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't 17 interrupt, Mr. Cohen. 18 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 19 question. It's vague. 20 THE WITNESS: I believe we received 21 his file in conjunction with a number of 22 files that came over that were requested 415 1 erroneously. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And the reason was because he 4 needed access to The White House? 5 A That was part of the project 6 update, yes. 7 Q And was there another reason? 8 A No. 9 Q But in fact before Billy Dale's 10 file was requested you wrote a memorandum 11 ordering the Secret Service to keep Mr. Dale 12 out of the White House, correct? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know the time 16 frame, but I do recall writing such a 17 memorandum. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Why did you write that memorandum? 20 A At the instruction of Mr. David 21 Watkins. 22 Q Did he tell you why you were to 416 1 write such a memorandum? 2 A That they were fired and then so 3 the matter was resolved that they didn't want 4 them back in The White House without 5 Mr. Watkins knowing about it. 6 Q Since he was fired, Mr. Dale, there 7 was then no reason to get his FBI file 8 information, correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q But you got it anyway, correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q And you got it so you could use the 13 information in it against him, correct? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of that question. 16 THE WITNESS: No, that's not true. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q And you got it so you and people in 20 The White House could smear his reputation, 21 correct? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 417 1 of the question. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You got it so you could dig up dirt 6 to later have him indicted, correct? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: That's not true. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But you're not sure, correct? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Correct? 18 A Correct what, sir? 19 Q That you got the files of the 20 Travel Office workers to use against them, 21 correct? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 418 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: No, that's not true. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join and assumes 4 facts not in evidence. 5 Q Have you ever heard anyone say that 6 Hillary Clinton ordered The White House 7 Travel Office firings? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection, irrelevant. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 10 THE WITNESS: In the media. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q In fact, Mrs. Clinton has told you 13 she ordered them, correct? 14 A Absolutely not. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. Lack of foundation. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What's your opinion about what 21 happened to The White House Travel Office 22 people? 419 1 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, lack of 3 relevance. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A Well, having lived through this 7 through three years, I have a particular 8 appreciation of what they must feel like. I 9 don't know the situation. I don't -- I 10 didn't follow Mr. Dale's trial and things 11 like that, but a jury of his peers found him 12 innocent, so I have no reason to believe that 13 he's not innocent. They were all fine people 14 when I knew them at The White House, and we 15 tried to treat them with courtesy when they 16 left The White House. 17 Q And as far as you knew when you 18 were at The White House there was no reason 19 to have fired them, correct? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, beyond 22 the scope of the authorized discovery. 420 1 Q You can respond. 2 A I had heard the same rumors about 3 the sloppy bookkeeping and things like that, 4 and I had thought that they could go to them 5 and talk to them about it. 6 Q Who did you hear the rumors from? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question, relevance, beyond the scope. 9 THE WITNESS: CÄÄÄÄa Cerda. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Who? 12 A CÄÄÄÄa Cerda. 13 Q Who is she? 14 A She worked at The White House 15 ultimately in the Counsel's Office. 16 Q What did she tell you? 17 A That they had heard that there was 18 some bad bookkeeping at the Travel Office. 19 Q And you heard that before they were 20 fired? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q What else did she say? 421 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. It's irrelevant. 3 THE WITNESS: Just that people were 4 looking into it. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Who did she say was looking into 7 it? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. Relevance. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know. At 12 some point the FBI or somebody like that 13 came, but I don't remember if it was after 14 the gentleman had left or before. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You're aware that Mr. Kennedy had 17 ordered the IRS to look into it, too, 18 correct? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. Lack of foundation, 21 irrelevant. 22 THE WITNESS: I heard that through 422 1 the newspaper. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You discussed that with 4 Mr. Kennedy, did you not? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You're aware Mr. Kennedy -- 10 MR. COHEN: Let me get my objection 11 on the record. Objection to the form of the 12 question, irrelevant, lack of foundation. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You are aware that Mr. Kennedy was 15 fired over that, correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection, lack of 17 foundation, irrelevant. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, lack of 19 foundation. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe 21 that was true. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 423 1 Q In fact, Mr. Kennedy was never 2 fired, was he? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question because one of the two lacks 5 a foundation. 6 THE WITNESS: I understood from him 7 that he was fired for not properly reporting 8 his taxes for his house helper. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And you don't have any knowledge of 11 him being reprimanded over the Travelgate 12 incident, do you? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question, relevance. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 16 THE WITNESS: I seem to remember 17 reading Mr. McClarty's memo that Mr. Kennedy 18 was reprimanded. 19 Q You are aware that Mr. McClarty 20 consulted with Hillary Clinton over the 21 Travel Office? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 424 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 4 form of the question. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 6 Q You're aware that Mr. McClarty 7 spoke to Hillary Clinton on several occasions 8 about the Travel Office before they were 9 fired? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 12 the question, lack of foundation, irrelevant. 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I'm not 14 aware of any such conversations between the 15 two them. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the 18 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 10, but 19 before I do that, did you ever discuss the 20 Travel Office firings with Gary Aldrich? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question, lack of foundation, 425 1 irrelevant. 2 THE WITNESS: I think we had a 3 brief conversation about it. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What did you say to Mr. Aldrich? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection, irrelevant. 7 THE WITNESS: I thought it was 8 unfortunate the way it was handled. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And what did you tell him about why 11 it was unfortunate? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection, irrelevant. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 14 THE WITNESS: I know who these guys 15 are. I mean, not you personally but I know 16 what you do because it's what I did for 12 17 years, and I knew how popular they were with 18 the press, if nothing else, and previous 19 administration people because there are 20 people, believe it or not, in the previous 21 administration I know and I'm friendly with, 22 and politically I thought it was just not a 426 1 good move, but it wasn't up to me. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So you really didn't care why it 4 was done other than the political impact of 5 it? 6 A That's not what I said. 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I said I cared. 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. It's irrelevant. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. He 13 hasn't even testified yet. 14 THE WITNESS: Then maybe I 15 shouldn't testify. Since you know what I'm 16 going to testify we'll just go with what he 17 says. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: If he'll go under 19 oath, we can shift over. 20 MR. COHEN: Do you have a question 21 to ask the witness, Mr. Klayman? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 427 1 Q You didn't care why they were fired 2 other than the political impact, correct? 3 A No. I don't think that's fair or 4 true. 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. Irrelevant, 7 mischaracterizes the testimony. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't show up at 10 their office and go ha-ha. The gentlemen if 11 asked could testify we tried to give them 12 lots of time to -- it was very awkward for 13 everybody. I mean, I was not -- it was not a 14 joyous moment. These guys had been there 20 15 years, a long time to be there. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Who else thought it was just a bad 18 political judgment? That was all you really 19 noted? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: It was before I was 428 1 aware of the indictment and all that stuff. 2 MR. COHEN: Let me get my objection 3 on. Asked and answered. Irrelevant. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 5 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 6 Exhibit 10. 7 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibit 8 No. 10 was marked for 9 identification.) 10 MR. COHEN: Mr. Videographer, could 11 you give us a time read when you get a 12 chance. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: We have about 45 14 minutes to go. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I don't keep a 16 running time. 17 MR. COHEN: You don't have the time 18 on your camera? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 5:54 right 20 now. 21 MR. COHEN: That's all I wanted to 22 know. 429 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Turn to page 81. This is an 3 excerpt from Gary Aldrich's book, Unlimited 4 Access. 5 A I'm sorry. What page? 6 Q Eighty-one. And on 81, Aldrich is 7 quoting you in the middle of the page: "At 8 the mention of the Travel Office, Livingstone 9 really got going. 'That fucking Watkins' -- 10 MR. COHEN: Objection, that's not 11 what it says. Go on. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to 13 debate with you over that term. 14 MR. COHEN: It says, FÄÄÄing." 15 MR. KLAYMAN: What do you think it 16 is? 17 MR. COHEN: I don't know. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q "'That fucking Watkins. I told him 20 Watkins was going to screw everything up. 21 Gary, I sat in a meeting when it was decided 22 that the Travel Office guys were going to get 430 1 fired and they would report it to the FBI. I 2 told them that they were nuts. Look, we 3 heard rumors about the press, that the press 4 was taken care of by the Travel Office guys, 5 bottles of wine in their rooms, easy customs 6 exams and stuff like that, but it was stupid 7 of Watkins to suggest that the FBI be brought 8 into it. There was no wrongdoing, no illegal 9 acts that we could prove. 10 "'The only good rumor we had was 11 some reporter bringing in a carpet illegally 12 through customs. That was it. I argued very 13 strongly against bringing in the FBI. It was 14 wrong. We unnecessarily ruined their 15 reputations. It was Watkins and Kennedy, 16 Gary. This was their big idea of how to get 17 rid of them. I told them it was a stupid 18 idea that would never work.'" 19 You said that to Aldrich, didn't 20 you? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 431 1 of the question. Irrelevant. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Beyond the scope of 3 authorized discovery. Joined. 4 MR. COHEN: It's a yes-or-no 5 question. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Are you saying you didn't say any 9 of that? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. It's irrelevant. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Compound and 13 extreme. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can respond. 16 MR. COHEN: That's a good point. 17 It's also compound. 18 THE WITNESS: Looks to me like a 19 guy trying to make a buck off a book. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Are you saying that everything he 22 said here was false? 432 1 MR. COHEN: Objection. 2 Mischaracterizes his testimony. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 4 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q What part is true? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. It's irrelevant. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You can respond. 11 A I told him what I already said. I 12 thought it was a mistake the way they handled 13 it. 14 Q What else is true? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. Mischaracterizes the 17 testimony. 18 THE WITNESS: That's all I recall. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q So you may have said that? You 21 just can't recall? 22 A It's not like Gary Aldrich and I 433 1 were big buddies and we sat around and had 2 long talks and went out to lunch together. 3 He was the FBI man and we talked from time to 4 time and that would be the longest 5 conversation I ever had with the guy if I had 6 that conversation. 7 Q My question was you just don't 8 remember this conversation but you may have 9 had it, correct? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. It 11 mischaracterizes the testimony and this whole 12 line of questioning irrelevant. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Correct? 15 A I told you, sir, that I remembered 16 telling Mr. Aldrich that I thought it was a 17 mistake the way they handled the Travel 18 Office guys. 19 Q But you can't either confirm or 20 deny that you said the rest because you don't 21 remember it? 22 A You got it. 434 1 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 2 answered. Irrelevant. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Is that correct? And this 5 conversation took place in the safe in your 6 office, correct? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection. Irrelevant, 8 mischaracterizes the testimony. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 10 reason to believe that's true. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you have conversations with 13 Gary Aldrich in the safe? 14 A I think I had one or two. 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 18 else to tell you. This is a man who abused 19 his shield to make a buck. He took people's 20 professional conversations in privacy and 21 decided -- conspired over a year's time, 22 abused his access from the FBI to spy on the 435 1 President and First Lady so that it could 2 lend credence to what he said because he was 3 an FBI agent at The White House at the time. 4 That's my feeling on Mr. Aldrich. 5 Q How did you find out he was spying 6 on the President and First Lady? Who told 7 you that? 8 A I just said it. 9 Q How do you know that? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection, it's 11 irrelevant. Go on. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q How do you know that? 14 A Because of what he writes in his 15 book. If he didn't like the Clintons so 16 much, why did he go help them decorate their 17 Christmas tree? What kind of person does 18 something like that? Goes into someone's 19 home that he so obviously detests and go into 20 their home and decorate their Christmas tree? 21 What's that say about Mr. Aldrich? 22 Q Well, you went into their home 436 1 during Christmas parties, didn't you? 2 A Yeah, because I was a staffer. 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Because in fact you worked for the 7 Clintons, correct? 8 MR. COHEN: Mischaracterizes the 9 prior testimony. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You worked for the Clintons, 12 correct? 13 A I worked for the Clinton 14 Administration. 15 Q You understood when you were 16 working at The White House that ultimately 17 you were working for Mr. and Mrs. Clinton, 18 correct? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. 21 THE WITNESS: No, actually I worked 22 for Bill Kennedy. 437 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Are you telling me that you didn't 3 work for the President and First Lady of the 4 United States? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. Mischaracterizes his 7 testimony. 8 THE WITNESS: I did not report to 9 them, no. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q But you knew that they were your 12 ultimate superiors? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question. Asked and answered. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Correct? 18 A I don't know. I just think you're 19 badgering me. I've given you an answer. 20 Q Was it your belief that they were 21 your ultimate superiors? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 438 1 of the question. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MR. COHEN: Asked and answered. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Vague. 5 MR. COHEN: And you are in fact 6 badgering the witness. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Please answer the question. 9 A No, thank you. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to leave 11 your witness out there refusing to answer a 12 question? 13 MR. COHEN: I really don't have any 14 interest in conversing with you, Mr. Klayman. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MR. COHEN: Do you have a question? 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Is that your answer or are you 20 refusing to answer? 21 A No's the answer. 22 Q So you didn't feel as if they were 439 1 your ultimate superiors? 2 A No. 3 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 4 answered. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q The President was not your ultimate 7 superior? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 9 answered. How many times are you going to 10 ask the same question? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The President was not your ultimate 13 superior? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 15 answered. You're badgering the witness. 16 It's abusive. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 MR. COHEN: If you don't like the 19 answer, that's not a reason to continue to 20 ask the question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Turn to page 82 -- 440 1 MR. COHEN: Let's take a two-minute 2 break. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 4 video record at 6:01. 5 (Recess) 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 7 video record at 6:13. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: I'd just like to 9 note for the record that Mr. Fitton and I 10 have agreed that there are 43 minutes 11 remaining in the Plaintiffs' 6 hours of the 12 deposition. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: How many seconds? 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Forty-three minutes 15 and zero seconds. He regards it as a floor; 16 I regard it as a ceiling. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll agree we 18 will stipulate to the 43 minutes for this 19 session. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Understood. 21 MR. COHEN: Well, obviously, if 22 there's any interest in continuing beyond 441 1 this session, I assume you will go to Judge 2 Lamberth to seek leave to do that. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought you would 4 agree to it. 5 MR. COHEN: No, let me think about 6 it. No. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Turn to page 82. Look at the 9 bottom, the last two paragraphs. Did you 10 discuss with Gary Aldrich security procedures 11 could be varied at The White House, correct? 12 MR. COHEN: Can you hold on one 13 second while we read this, Mr. Klayman? This 14 is the last two paragraphs on 82; is that 15 what you said? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking a 17 question about it yet. I'm just calling his 18 attention to it. The general question is he 19 did discuss from time to time with Gary 20 Aldrich whether pass security procedures 21 could be varied from. 22 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 442 1 the question. Vague. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't think I ever 3 had a conversation with Mr. Aldrich about 4 varying past procedures. I think I may have 5 talked to him at length about how to do -- 6 how to get the pass procedures going and 7 started and moved along. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In fact, you told Mr. Aldrich that 10 if those procedures were going to be changed 11 in any way he better check with Hillary 12 Clinton because she was in charge, correct? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question, foundation. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You did have routine security 20 meetings with Gary Aldrich, didn't you? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 443 1 THE WITNESS: They were not routine 2 meetings. We had security meetings for the 3 complex where a number of individuals would 4 come, including Gary and myself. Clay. 5 Q Who came to those meetings? 6 A But it wasn't one-on-one. 7 Representatives of the Secret Service, 8 representatives of the uniform division, 9 representatives of the military office, a 10 couple other agencies. 11 Q During the time you worked in The 12 White House, you were friendly with Gary 13 Aldrich, weren't you? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I would say that I 17 consider our relationship professional. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You weren't unfavorably disposed 20 towards him at that time, correct? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 444 1 interest in speaking disparagingly of 2 Mr. Aldrich today. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q So the point is you just don't want 5 to disparage him on the record but in fact 6 you didn't think highly of him even when he 7 was at The White House? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I guess to answer 11 your question, sir, I didn't have a strong 12 opinion one way or the other early on at The 13 White House. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q What did you think of him? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 17 THE WITNESS: When I initially met 18 him, I felt that he can be of help in getting 19 me to get some of The White House staff off 20 their butts and get some of the paperwork 21 done. He helped me with some security 22 briefings of new employees and interns and 445 1 was agreeable in doing those things. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Look at the bottom of the page. It 4 says here -- 5 MR. COHEN: Which page, 6 Mr. Klayman? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Eighty-two. "Craig looked at me 9 like I didn't have a brain. 'Nussbuam, it's 10 not Nussbuam we got to talk to. We'll be 11 talking to Hillary.'" You said that, didn't 12 you? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question. In what context is this 15 quote being taken? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: He can read it. 17 THE WITNESS: I'll have to read the 18 first couple paragraphs. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q All right, feel free. 21 A At the time I thought that the lack 22 of staff participating in getting their 446 1 passes done, because there was a real 2 supervisory problem in getting people to get 3 their paperwork done, I thought that if we 4 mentioned it to Maggie that she'd let 5 Mrs. Clinton know about it and say well, this 6 is idiotic, you know, and talk to the chief 7 of staff and say were you aware of this kind 8 of thing? This is idiotic. People need to 9 get the paperwork done. Let's get this done. 10 Because I frankly had gone to the 11 chief of staff, and I had gone to 12 Mr. Nussbaum and others seeking assistance in 13 trying to get senior staff to complete their 14 paperwork on a timely fashion, and this 15 seemed to surprise Mr. Aldrich but it wasn't 16 anything other than I thought Ms. Clinton 17 could have a good voice in that and that this 18 is silly, and let's get it to the right 19 person and tell them to get it done. 20 Q So you did say that? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection, 22 mischaracterizes his testimony. 447 1 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that but 2 I said what I just said. I've been reading 3 through here. He says part of what I say and 4 then takes artistic license, apparently. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q What part did you say? 7 A That we should mention it to 8 Maggie, and if she thought it was important 9 would bring it up with Mrs. Clinton. 10 Q And that's because Mrs. Clinton was 11 in charge of security matters? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: No, sir. It's 15 because Mrs. Clinton was a harbinger of 16 common sense at that point in The White 17 House, and this seemed like a ship without a 18 rudder sometimes, and she was the kind of 19 person that can make sense of the situation 20 and say this is stupid, have people fill out 21 their paperwork. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 448 1 Q And you came to understand that she 2 was the harbinger of common sense because you 3 had worked with her, correct? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. Asked and answered at least 7 a dozen times. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 9 THE WITNESS: No, that would not be 10 correct. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q How did you learn that she was a 13 harbinger of common sense. 14 A I observed her. 15 Q How did you observe her? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection, same 17 objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Seeing her around the 19 hallway. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Just seeing her in the hallway led 22 you to believe she was a harbinger of common 449 1 sense? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: Having heard from 5 certain staffers her weighing in on certain 6 things and the results that ensued made sense 7 to you. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What had you heard she weighed in 10 on? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 12 THE WITNESS: Trips, setups for 13 foreign visits, using volunteers and interns, 14 that type of thing. 15 MR. COHEN: Trips with one "p." 16 MR. KLAYMAN: No humor, please. 17 Don't take up my time, Mr. Cohen. You can 18 take up your own. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What did you hear her weigh in on 21 with regard to security matters? 22 A Nothing, ever. 450 1 Q Then why were you mentioning here 2 in the context of security procedures? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I've said it several 5 times. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And what is that? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 9 answered. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't want to 11 answer it again, Mr. Klayman. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you ever met Ken Starr? 14 A Yes, I have. 15 Q Did he ever talk to you about 16 Filegate? 17 A I don't think I'm able to talk to 18 you about that. 19 Q I'm not asking you what he said or 20 what you said. Did he ever talk to you about 21 the Filegate controversy? 22 A I don't think I'm at liberty to 451 1 talk about what I've talked with the 2 Independent Counsel. 3 Q Will you please consult with your 4 counsel? 5 A Because I've been instructed by the 6 independent counsel. 7 Q The Independent Counsel's 8 instructed you not to talk about his 9 conversation? 10 MR. COHEN: Can I consult with my 11 client? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: (Nodding). 13 (Witness conferred with counsel) 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you for the 15 opportunity to get clarification there, 16 Mr. Klayman. I spent numerous occasions with 17 the investigators of the Independent 18 Counsel's office, untold hours answering 19 their questions, all of their questions, and 20 at one point in the sessions Mr. Starr seemed 21 rather amiable and affable and came up to me 22 and shook my hand and said something like 452 1 have a good day or something like that. That 2 was the extent of my involvement with Mr. Ken 3 Starr. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Was he in on that meeting? 6 A No. 7 Q Or did he just come into the room? 8 A Just came into the room. 9 Q So he didn't actually participate 10 in any of the questioning? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q And he's never asked you one 13 question, has he? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q So he just came into the room, 16 shook your hand, and told you to have a good 17 day? 18 A Something like that. I mean, it 19 was pleasantries, and I spent many, many 20 hours with his staff answering all of their 21 many, many questions. 22 Q Look at the top of page 83, where 453 1 you said, according to Aldrich, "Hillary is 2 the one to talk to, trust me, and I'll be 3 talking to her soon. I've got to join them 4 on a trip on Air Force One. She'll 5 understand the risk you're taking. You don't 6 have to worry about her hurting your career. 7 I know her well enough. She'll be interested 8 to hear what you have to say, and she's the 9 only one who can change things." 10 You said that to Mr. Aldrich, 11 didn't you? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Compound. 15 THE WITNESS: I said something like 16 that, once again, and Mr. Aldrich has taken 17 literary license. I said that if I had an 18 opportunity to mention it to Ms. Clinton that 19 I would. I thought it was appropriate. I 20 didn't think that she would be upset with me 21 bringing it up to her attention. So, yeah, 22 the gist of it is, yeah, I said that. 454 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you know Louis Freeh? 3 A I know who he is. 4 Q Have you ever met him? 5 A Yes, I have. 6 Q In what context did you meet him? 7 A I did the advance for his swearing- 8 in ceremony. He had been to The White House 9 several times with his family. A couple of 10 times he was in my office with his kids and 11 his wife. I think at one point my girlfriend 12 watched his kids for him while he and his 13 wife did some official function at The White 14 House. 15 Q Who was your girlfriend? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure who I 18 was seeing at that time. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You don't remember who your girl- 21 friend was? 22 A It was not a long-term thing. 455 1 Q Well, who was it? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 3 answered. 4 THE WITNESS: I'll think about it 5 and get back to you. It's a woman I saw a 6 few times. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q I take it you talked to her about 9 your work at The White House? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection, lack of 11 foundation, relevance. 12 THE WITNESS: She was an intern at 13 The White House. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q So you did talk to her about your 16 work at the White House? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection, 18 mischaracterizes the testimony, relevance. 19 THE WITNESS: It's possible. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Do you remember her name? 22 A Michelle. 456 1 Q And what was her last name? 2 A Don't recall. Easy to find out, 3 though. 4 Q How can I find out? 5 A I'll get you the information 6 tomorrow. 7 Q All this stuff that you said you'd 8 get to me, thank you for getting it to me 9 tomorrow through your counsel. 10 A I will. That's a promise. 11 Q Thank you. 12 A Owens. 13 Q Do you know where she is today? 14 A Kansas somewhere. 15 Q Where in Kansas? 16 A My bet is Kansas City. 17 Q Do you know where she works? 18 A No. I haven't talked to her for 19 years, probably four years. 20 Q Do you remember what her middle 21 initial is? 22 A No. 457 1 Q Did you have any other girlfriends 2 in and around that period? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you go out drinking with 7 somebody on a regular basis during that 8 period? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 10 He already testified he doesn't drink. 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q On an irregular basis? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you 17 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 18 Exhibit 11. 19 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibit 20 No. 11 was marked for 21 identification.) 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 458 1 Q These are wave logs which purport 2 to show your entry into the White House 3 residence, they consist of three pages, Bates 4 number 954, 926, and 875. Have you ever seen 5 these documents before? 6 A I don't believe so. 7 Q On the first page, that's Bates 8 number 4954, it says Ellen Livingstone. Who 9 is Ellen Livingstone? 10 A I haven't a clue. I do not know an 11 Ellen Livingstone. 12 Q Craig Livingstone, it says that you 13 visited POTUS Tuesday? 14 A Well, what it says is a person 15 named Craig Livingstone visited POTUS. 16 Q And this was on August 7, 1996. 17 Why did you go to the residence on that date? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Mischaracterize the 19 document. Mr. Klayman, I suggest you look 20 again at the date column. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Let's say it's December 7, 1993. 459 1 Did you go to The White House residence that 2 day? 3 A Well, as long as you understand the 4 residence comprises three floors. For the 5 record, I have never been in the living 6 quarters of The White House, period, ever. 7 The only thing I can suggest is someone can 8 check that date. If there was a reception 9 that evening in 1923, myself and 200 other 10 people were probably attending a reception, 11 but to be clear and for the record I've never 12 been on the residence level of the mansion. 13 Q The White House was celebrating 14 Pearl Harbor that date? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: No, sir, as you're 17 aware, I'm sure, there's Tennessee Day to 18 Straw Heyday is celebrated at The White 19 House. I mean, any event you can think of, 20 they have, and I'm sure it's something like 21 that. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 460 1 Q You boasted to Linda Tripp that you 2 had access to the residence, didn't you? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question, foundation. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 6 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think I 7 boasted to Linda Tripp about anything. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q But you told her you had access to 10 the residence, correct? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question, lack of foundation. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 14 THE WITNESS: I could go to the 15 residence. I just said I had not gone ever 16 to the living quarters of the mansion. I 17 went to the residence many times. 18 Q And you went to the residence for 19 reasons other than White House functions? 20 A I went for tours, I was on my way 21 to the other side of the building. I had 22 matters that I can't speak with you about 461 1 with the military office, briefing room 2 stuff, things that I can't talk about, which 3 make perfect sense for me to be at the 4 residence. 5 Q And you went to the residence to 6 talk to Hillary Clinton? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: No, I never met with 12 Hillary Clinton. In fact, I can say that I 13 never met with Ms. Clinton at The White House 14 at all about anything. 15 Q You met with her on Air Force One? 16 A No, I didn't. 17 MR. COHEN: I object. 18 Mischaracterizes the testimony. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You told Aldrich you were going to 21 meet with her on Air Force one, didn't you? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection. 462 1 Mischaracterizes the testimony. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Correct? 5 A I don't recall. 6 Q Hillary Clinton held staff meetings 7 in the residence, didn't she? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 10 THE WITNESS: I believe she had 11 staff meetings at the residence, but, as I've 12 already said twice and I'm happy to say it 13 three times, I've never met with Ms. Clinton 14 at The White House. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q But you have talked to her by phone 17 at The White House, correct? 18 A About what? 19 Q You did talk to her by phone when 20 you were at The White House? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 463 1 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think I 2 ever talked to her by phone anywhere, inside 3 or outside The White House. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You received memoranda from her or 6 her office, did you not? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I received memoranda 10 from her staff. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q About how many memoranda did you 13 receive from her staff? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: It almost always 17 involved trips and my need or request for my 18 services for advance from her scheduling and 19 advance office. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You are aware that Hillary 22 Clinton's functions at The White House went 464 1 beyond just simple protocol, correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 4 vagueness. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 Q You're aware that she is a First 8 Lady who in fact has gotten herself involved 9 in government business? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MR. COHEN: Object to the form as 12 well. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form, 14 object to the basis. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 16 firsthand knowledge of that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you have any secondhand 19 knowledge of that? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection, vagueness. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 465 1 Q Never heard that before? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: Not from sources that 4 I would deem reliable. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q What sources that you deem 7 unreliable have you heard that from? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: Conservative press. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q So you're saying the conservative 13 press made up the fact that she was head of 14 The White House healthcare task force? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: That's not what I 17 said at all. I don't take any stock in what 18 they have to say about Mrs. Clinton. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q They could say anything. They 21 could say she had blonde hair and you 22 wouldn't believe that, either? 466 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. Argumentative. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Is that what you're saying? 5 A No. 6 Q Turn to the second page. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Forty-nine 8 twenty-six for the record? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: That's correct. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q This lists entries into The White 12 House on October 18, 1994. Did you enter the 13 Vice President's office on October 18, 1994? 14 MR. COHEN: I just have a standing 15 objection to the foundation with whether this 16 document in fact purports to say what you say 17 it purports to say. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: That's what I'm 19 asking. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Let's look at the first entry 22 there. It says, "Craig Livingstone visit 467 1 TVP." 2 A It says Room 450, which is the old 3 treaty room on the top floor of the Old 4 Executive Office Building. It's not the Vice 5 President's office. 6 Q What you doing in the treat re room 7 day that? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: Probably a function 11 if it happened at all. That's where they 12 have ceremonial functions and if the Vice 13 President's there, even though I'm a staffer, 14 you have to be cleared in. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Look down. It says that on October 17 18, '94, you also entered the residence, 18 correct? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. Foundation. 21 THE WITNESS: That's what it says, 22 but I don't know if it's me and I don't know 468 1 what the event was, but I assume it was an 2 event. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Look to the next page -- 5 A I'd like to, for the record, just 6 say that I did not have a private meeting 7 with Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Clinton at any of 8 those times because I've never had a private 9 meeting with them in the residence. 10 Q Did you have a meeting where other 11 people were present? 12 A No. I never attended a meeting. 13 Q Page number 4875 makes reference in 14 the second entry to Regina Livingstone. Who 15 is that? 16 A I've not heard that name before. 17 Q Is that a relative of yours? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 THE WITNESS: I have not heard that 21 name before. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 469 1 Q On this page it says that on March 2 6, 1996, you entered the residence; is that 3 correct? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection, lack of 5 foundation. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know. It 7 says David. I thought they used my name 8 Craig. It's kind of odd that it would be 9 David. Maybe it's a couple, David and Regina 10 Livingstone. I don't know. I don't know 11 what to tell you. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What's your mother's name? 14 A Gloria. 15 Q Is her middle name Regina? 16 A Wimer. 17 Q Did you ever visit a hotel in New 18 York City where Vice President Gore was also 19 staying? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: No relevance. 22 THE WITNESS: I haven't a clue. I 470 1 didn't do any advance work for Mr. Gore. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you ever have dinner with James 4 Carville at the Ashby Inn in Virginia? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, no 6 relevance. 7 MR. COHEN: Join in the objection, 8 lack of relevance. 9 THE WITNESS: Not a one on one or a 10 four of four kind of thing. Maybe there was 11 a group of campaign people and they all had 12 dinner at the same place. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Carville was there? 15 A I don't know. I don't recall that 16 dinner. 17 Q But you've been to the Ashby Inn? 18 A No, I don't know where that is. 19 Q Been to an inn in Virginia? 20 A I sure have. 21 Q Did you ever have a meeting with 22 your lawyer, Mr. Cohen, where Mr. Marceca was 471 1 also present? 2 MR. COHEN: You can answer. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Where did that meeting take place? 6 A At my counsel's law firm. 7 Q And when did it take place? 8 A 1996, I believe. 9 Q Right after the Filegate scandal 10 broke? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the 12 characterization. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Filegate controversy. 15 A Something like that, yes, sir. 16 Q And what was the reason for that 17 meeting? 18 MR. COHEN: Just one second. 19 (Witness conferred with counsel) 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to these 21 consultations. It's inappropriate. 22 MR. COHEN: I'm happy to put on the 472 1 record -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: He's not asking you 3 anything. You're imparting information on 4 him. 5 MR. COHEN: I'm telling him I 6 instruct him not to answer to the extent it's 7 conversations he and I had alone. The extent 8 it's conversations he and I had with 9 Mr. Marceca present he's free to answer the 10 question. 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Marceca wanted to 12 talk to Mr. Cohen to try to give him a good 13 understanding of what he thought might have 14 happened. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q And what did Mr. Marceca tell 17 Mr. Cohen? 18 A That he thought the list must have 19 been screwed up. 20 Q And how did he say the list must 21 have been screwed up? 22 A I don't remember the details. 473 1 Q Tell me as much as you remember. 2 A That's what I remember, that he 3 ordered -- he requested pursuant to the list 4 provided by the Secret Service. 5 Q It was White House procedure to 6 check that list to make sure it was accurate, 7 correct? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I would say that's an 11 unfair characterization. Any information we 12 got from the Secret Service we never checked. 13 We assumed this is a federal agency, it's 14 been doing this for years, the information's 15 correct. Why would we check it? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q What else did Mr. Marceca say at 18 that meeting? 19 A I really don't recall. It was very 20 brief. 21 Q Was there a document prepared at 22 that meeting? 474 1 A I believe he prepared a document of 2 his recollection of the events. 3 Q And your lawyer typed it out, 4 Mr. Cohen? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q Did you discuss that meeting at 7 your office before you testified today? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you discuss that with 11 Mr. Cohen? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection, instruct the 13 witness not to answer that question. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to find 15 out if he discussed it. 16 MR. COHEN: No, you're not. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: There is no 18 attorney-client privilege here. 19 MR. COHEN: You're asking about 20 conversations Mr. Livingstone and I had in 21 preparation for this deposition. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Which is not 475 1 attorney-client privilege. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: There are three 3 rulings in this case, Mr. Klayman. 4 MR. COHEN: I instruct the witness 5 not to answer questions regarding his 6 conversations with me in preparation for this 7 deposition. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What did your lawyer, Mr. Cohen, 10 say at that meeting? 11 MR. COHEN: Which meeting are you 12 talking about, Mr. Klayman? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: With Mr. Marceca. 14 MR. COHEN: This is the meeting in 15 June of '96 he's asking about. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I understand. 17 I'm trying to remember that far back. I 18 think Mr. Marceca was also looking for legal 19 counsel as well. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Mr. Cohen was suggesting that he 22 could represent him? 476 1 A No. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What did Mr. Cohen say at the 6 meeting? 7 A That he appreciated that 8 Mr. Marceca was offering to do an explanation 9 or I don't know what the legal term is but a 10 report on what he thought had happened and 11 sign an affidavit. 12 Q Did Mr. Marceca do a report on what 13 had happened? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Did you discuss at that meeting 16 whether Mr. Marceca had ever seen his own FBI 17 file information? 18 A We did not. 19 Q What did you say at the meeting? 20 A Very little. 21 Q Well, tell me what you said. 22 A Beyond introductions I don't 477 1 recall. The rest of it was conversations 2 with my attorney about matters concerning me. 3 Q With Mr. Marceca present? 4 A No, sir, separate. 5 Q Your executive assistant Mary 6 Anderson had warned you that Republicans were 7 on the list, had she not? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 11 vagueness. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q I'm talking about the Secret 14 Service list. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 16 vagueness. 17 MR. COHEN: I still object to the 18 vagueness and lack of foundation. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Just don't recall? 22 A No. 478 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the 2 argumentative nature of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: No, sir, what you 4 asked me was do I recall this statement, not 5 whether or not it's a level of importance. I 6 answered what you said. I don't recall the 7 statement. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q If she had said that, that would be 10 an important statement, wouldn't it? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I think I would be 14 concerned about it, yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q And why would you be concerned 17 about it? 18 A If there are in fact Republicans 19 that shouldn't be on it -- we had quite a few 20 Republicans that worked at The White House. 21 Q And that would have raised alarm 22 bells with you, correct? 479 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: Only if they weren't 4 currently at The White House. 5 Q You joked about Republicans being 6 on the list, didn't you? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection, lack of 8 foundation. 9 THE WITNESS: I remember at some 10 point talking about how sloppy the Secret 11 Service lists were, yeah, in discussions with 12 other offices that were having problems. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q And you did nothing to correct it, 15 did you? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I think I did a 20 lot to correct it. I brought it up to as 21 many people as I could. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 480 1 Q Did you ever see FBI file 2 information on James Baker, former secretary 3 of state? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Tony Blankly? 6 A Don't know. 7 Q Mr. Livingstone, why do you think 8 you were hired as director of Office of 9 Personnel Security? What is your belief as 10 to what qualified you for that job? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 12 THE WITNESS: It was a low-level, 13 largely administrative job, and once we got 14 our act together with a 25-percent staff cut 15 we did really well. I had agency after 16 agency come in, Department of Defense, State 17 Department, and others and commend us on our 18 ability to track security data, to update 19 background information for the purposes of 20 security clearances. 21 The director of the Secret Service 22 himself gave me a commendation, thanked me 481 1 for my work and my assistance at the 2 inaugural. I sent my staff to the highest 3 level security training we could have, which 4 is an OPM course Ms. Wetzl completed. Nobody 5 in the previous office had the OPM security 6 office course completed. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q So it is your belief that you did 9 an excellent job as director of Office of 10 Personnel Security? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't say 14 that. I think in 1996 I stood up like a man 15 and said I'm sorry for what happened but a 16 number of us made errors and for that I will 17 take responsibility and I did and I have paid 18 for it for three years, but that's what 19 happened. It was a mistake. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q How have you paid for it for three 22 years? 482 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: Oh, about 200 hours 4 of testimony, ridicule, disparaging comments 5 about my size, whether or not I could write a 6 sentence, let alone read a book, the fact 7 that I was the son of an enlisted man and I 8 helped support myself and paid my own way 9 through school and one of the jobs I took was 10 working as a doorman. Gee, how horrible that 11 I'm not part of the Ivy set. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You have received offers of support 14 from the Clintons during this last three 15 years, haven't you? 16 A No, sir. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q People have relayed their support 20 to you, correct? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 483 1 THE WITNESS: I don't believe 2 that's correct on the Clintons' level but 3 people at The White House have said we're 4 sorry for you, you took a hit, hang in there, 5 life will get better, but more often than not 6 most people turned their back that me. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And they said the Clintons wished 9 you the best, correct? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think 13 I've had that relayed to me in those words. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Have the Clintons tried to help you 16 in any way in the last three years? 17 A No. 18 Q Are you bitter about that? 19 A No. I got into politics wide-eyed. 20 I knew what it's about. My number was up. I 21 was an easy target, and I'm done with 22 politics. 484 1 Q Do you think you were the fall guy 2 for some other people at The White House who 3 did things that were incorrect? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 A I don't think I'm the fall guy but 10 I think when all the information comes out 11 that the lists were incorrect. They were 12 generated as we said, that agents misspoke 13 under oath before Congress and -- or didn't 14 have the right information, but the lists do 15 exist and I think when that information comes 16 out people will have a somewhat more -- 17 different view. 18 Q Well, you can't vouch for what 19 Kennedy did with the FBI file information, 20 can you? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q And you don't know whether he 485 1 shared it with Hillary Clinton? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I have no reason to 6 believe he would. 7 Q You don't know one way or the 8 other, correct? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q So do you think you may be the fall 11 guy for some bad stuff he did? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I chose to resign. I 15 could have fought it, probably would have 16 been fired, but I chose to have some 17 semblance of honor, take responsibility for a 18 mistake to these individuals and others and 19 resign. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Based on your lack of experience in 22 reviewing FBI security information, and you 486 1 had no experience when you started at The 2 White House, correct? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q Is it your current belief that you 5 were hired because you could be manipulated? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 9 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Why would they hire somebody 12 without experience? Do you have an 13 understanding why that occurred? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: As I said, it was a 17 clerk-level position. The Counsel's Office 18 -- a high-level person in Counsel's Office 19 determined what to do about people's 20 backgrounds and if there were problems. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Now, since you left The White House 487 1 have you obtained gainful employment? 2 A I worked in California for about a 3 year, and I am back here now working in the 4 mortgage business. 5 Q Who are you working for? 6 A Southwestern mortgage. 7 Q Who's your supervisor? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection on relevance. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Who hired you there? 11 A Probably Gary Wade would be my 12 supervisor. 13 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Who hired you? 16 MR. COHEN: Same objection. 17 THE WITNESS: Same person. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Is he a big Democrat donor? 20 A Hardly. That's a little tiny shop. 21 They got three desks, two windows, one phone. 22 Q Who hired you in Laguna beach? 488 1 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 2 THE WITNESS: A guy named Fred 3 DÄÄÄÄ. 4 Q And he is a big Democratic donor? 5 A Yeah, I think he gave 250 bucks 6 over the last three years to the party. 7 Q How much did he give to the Clinton 8 war campaign? 9 A Nothing. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Holley, can I 11 have a time check, please? 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 6:51. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: About five minutes, 14 Mr. Klayman. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Have you been offered any 17 employment during that period since you left 18 The White House other than these two jobs? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question, relevance. 21 THE WITNESS: Not substantive 22 employment, no. I've been primarily caring 489 1 for my ailing father who's been in the 2 hospital for three and a half months, just 3 got out last Monday. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Are you aware of a memorandum 6 prepared by Jane Sherburne back in 1994 that 7 talks about FBI files? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Vagueness. 11 THE WITNESS: Show me something to 12 look at and I can tell you. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Had you ever had a conversation 15 about the FBI file controversy with Howard 16 Shapiro? 17 A No. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 19 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 20 Exhibit 12. 21 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibit 22 No. 12 was marked for 490 1 identification.) 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Before I do that you are aware that 4 the FBI files that were procured when you 5 were at The White House have never been sent 6 back? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 8 vagueness. 9 MR. COHEN: Join that objection. 10 THE WITNESS: I have no such 11 knowledge. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You're aware as a matter of White 14 House procedure that FBI file information 15 which is obtained is archived and not sent 16 back by The White House after an 17 administration concludes? 18 A I would assume that that's a 19 procedure as all documents that come into a 20 sitting White House are made part of The 21 White House Presidential records, yes. 22 Q So, therefore, the FBI file 491 1 information which came over to The White 2 House when you were there still remains at 3 The White House? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, form, 7 lack of foundation, vagueness. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Correct? You can respond. 10 A No. 11 Q You're saying it's not there any 12 more? 13 A I'm saying I don't know. I'm 14 sorry. 15 Q But as a matter of what you 16 understood to be procedures it should be 17 there? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Joined. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Correct? 492 1 A I'm sure there's exceptions, but 2 that would be the general procedure, yes. 3 Q And do you know whether that FBI 4 file information was used in the last year 5 and a half to smear Republicans by The White 6 House? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Lack of foundation. 10 THE WITNESS: My understanding is 11 the activities of the Republicans themselves 12 did a fine enough job. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So your answer is no? 15 A My answer would be that these 16 gentlemen apparently did things that they 17 regret and resigned. 18 Q So you don't know one way or the 19 other whether that information was used to 20 leak to the public? 21 A I can say from the bottom of my 22 heart that I believe that's not true. 493 1 Q But you have no basis for that 2 belief? 3 A The people I know and worked with I 4 don't believe would do that. 5 Q So you have faith but you don't 6 know, correct? 7 A That would be correct, Mr. Klayman. 8 MR. COHEN: Object to the question. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Have you ever seen this document 11 before? 12 A Not in this breakdown. It seems 13 familiar, though, from the Web but I don't 14 know where. 15 Q Did you see it when you worked at 16 The White House? 17 A I don't think so, sir. 18 Q Is it your understanding that you 19 were hired at The White House to procure 20 information from the FBI concerning 21 Republicans? 22 A Absolutely not. 494 1 Q So, having obtained that 2 information, that was not part of your duties 3 and responsibilities? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Correct? 8 A I was never asked by anyone, inside 9 or outside of Counsel's Office, to do 10 anything illegal or untoward involving 11 anything in my office. 12 Q Well, regardless of whether the FBI 13 files of Republicans came over inadvertently, 14 if they weren't holdover employees or 15 political appointees, it was not part of your 16 job to get that information, correct? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: As I understand it, 20 they were sent to us as part of our daily 21 course of duties, which is as the project 22 update; therefore, if a mistake was -- lies 495 1 with us performing our every day duties, then 2 I would disagree with you. I would say that 3 it comes under everyday responsibilities. 4 Q So it was part of your everyday 5 responsibility to procure information on 6 Republicans that are not holdovers and were 7 not political appointees? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 11 form of the question. 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. Mischaracterizes the 14 testimony. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that what you're 16 saying? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We get the point. 20 Please don't run out the clock in a child- 21 like fashion. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 496 1 Q Would you please respond? 2 A No. 3 MR. COHEN: Same objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. I've 5 said that about a dozen times. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check, 7 Mr. Holley. 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 6:57. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q So that was legitimately part of 11 your functions at The White House -- 12 MR. COHEN: That's it. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Not insofar as he ran 14 off the clock by making objections he'd 15 already made. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Take that up with 17 Mr. Cohen. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you going to let 19 me ask the question? 20 MR. COHEN: Is 6:57 six hours? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: 6:56 was six hours. 22 MR. COHEN: You got one more 497 1 question. Go ahead, make it a relevant one. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Was it a legitimate part of your 4 job to obtain the FBI files of Republicans 5 who were not holdovers and were not political 6 appointees? Was that what you were hired to 7 do, yes or no? 8 A Absolutely not. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: I just want to state 11 something for the record, Mr. Klayman. At 12 least at this time we anticipate that we may 13 have some cross we want to take of 14 Mr. Livingstone, and, as I stated to you in 15 the letter I faxed over last week, I think 16 we're going want to do that Friday morning, 17 and we can do it at the Department of Justice 18 if we have space available. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me get back to 20 you tomorrow. I'll be happy to do it within 21 the discovery cutoff. I'm not sure I'm 22 available Friday morning. 498 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I sent 2 you a letter on this last week advising you 3 that Mr. Livingstone's counsel had said to me 4 that if there were any cross he might want 5 that to take place at a time other than -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't understand 7 that. It was my misunderstanding. I 8 apologize. I did not understand that, and I 9 don't believe I'm available Friday morning. 10 Mr. Fitton is not for sure. We'd be willing 11 to schedule it at a mutually agreeable date 12 at your convenience as long as I'm free on 13 that date. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Do you have a date 15 that you're willing to suggest? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I will call you first 17 thing in the morning. 18 MR. MAZUR: There aren't that many 19 convenient dates between now and June 12. 20 MR. COHEN: Which was the purpose 21 of Mr. Gilligan -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd be happy to stay 499 1 right now and do the cross. 2 MR. COHEN: We're not going to do 3 it now. We've been here on clock time now 4 for nine hours. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll get back to you 6 tomorrow morning. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm sorry? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: We did not set aside 9 that time. In fact, I suggested to you that 10 you cross-notice his deposition. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: We resolved that 12 issue separately. I sent that letter to you 13 after. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: There are some free 15 days, and we will work with you on that. 16 MR. COHEN: I just want to make it 17 clear on the record that whether your days 18 are free or not this is a date that 19 Mr. Gilligan and I discussed a week and a 20 half ago so it could be presented to you -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I did not agree to 22 it. 500 1 MR. COHEN: You didn't object to 2 it, either. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I did not agree to 4 it. The deposition has not been noticed. 5 He's not been subpoenaed and we are not 6 available on that date. I'm willing to work 7 with you. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: What dates? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I will call you first 10 thing in the morning. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: I'll see you first 12 thing in the morning. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll tell you then. 14 Also, it's our position that this deposition 15 was taken for purposes of the initial 16 discovery period. We will be moving the 17 court for additional time because we didn't 18 get into a lot of issues here. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I noticed that. 20 MR. COHEN: So the record is clear, 21 you have only yourself to blame for that, 22 Mr. Klayman. 501 1 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the judge 2 be the judge of who's to blame for what. 3 MR. MAZUR: Before we adjourn, is 4 there some possibility we could do this 5 tomorrow after the -- 6 MR. GILLIGAN: After Pond? 7 MR. MAZUR: Yes. 8 MR. COHEN: What time is she 9 starting? 10 MR. GILLIGAN: 10:00 o'clock. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Did you provide a 12 letter? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me take a look at 14 it. I don't know what the schedule is. I'll 15 tell you first thing. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Well, there's no 17 point arguing about it, Mr. Klayman. Our 18 position is that we provided you notice of 19 our intention to conduct cross-examination if 20 Mr. Livingstone wanted to on the morning of 21 Friday the 28th. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm telling you we're 502 1 not available. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: And you sat on your 3 rights is our position. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't sit on my 5 rights. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: I sent you a letter. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: You're saying you're 8 going to force the issue? I'll file a 9 protective order tomorrow if that's your 10 position. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm just stating my 12 position, sir. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you going to 14 force the issue? 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Let's see when we 16 talk tomorrow. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video 18 record at 7:01. 19 (Whereupon, at 7:01 p.m., the 20 deposition of DAVID CRAIG 21 LIVINGSTONE was adjourned.) 22 * * * * * 503 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22