504 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 2 -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Tuesday, June 8, 1999 12 Continued deposition of 13 DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Defendants pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 1:51 p.m. at the offices of the 18 United States Department of Justice, 901 E 19 Street N.W., Washington, D.C., before Joan V. 20 Cain, notary public in and for the District 21 of Columbia, when were present on behalf on 22 the respective parties: 505 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE JASON ALDRICH, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch, Inc. 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of 7 Investigation and Executive Office of the President: 8 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 10 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 11 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, D.C. 20004 12 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 14 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE 15 Office of General Counsel Federal Bureau of Investigation 16 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. Washington, D.C. 20535 17 (202) 324-9665 18 19 20 21 22 506 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5175 6 On behalf of The White House: 7 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 9 (202) 456-5079 10 On behalf of Defendant Nussbnaum: 11 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 12 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 13 (212) 403-1000 14 On behalf of Deponent: 15 DAVID S. COHEN, ESQUIRE Miller Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, L.L.P. 16 2555 M Street N.W. Washington. D.C. 20037-1302 17 (202) 833-6503 18 ALSO PRESENT: 19 Gerald Greenberg Thomas Fitton 20 Andrew Ferguson Ian Bosco 21 22 * * * * * 507 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Defendants Federal 510 Bureau of Investigation 4 and Executive Office of the President 5 Counsel for Defendant Hillary 520 6 Rodham Clinton 7 Counsel for Deponent 549 8 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: 9 Counsel for Plaintiffs 526 10 11 12 * * * * * 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 508 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good afternoon. 3 This is the continuing deposition of David 4 Craig Livingstone, taken by the counsel for 5 Defendants in the matter of Cara Leslie 6 Alexander et al. v. the Federal Bureau of 7 Investigation et al., on this date, June 8, 8 1999, and at the time indicated on the video 9 screen, which is 1:51 p.m. 10 Will counsel introduce themselves? 11 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President 12 Judicial Watch. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 14 general counsel and chairman, Judicial Watch. 15 MR. ALDRICH: Jason Aldrich, 16 attorney, Judicial Watch. 17 MR. COHEN: David Cohen, counsel 18 for the deponent, from Miller Cassidy Larroca 19 & Lewin, and with me is Gerald Greenberg, a 20 summer associate with our firm. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, 22 Department of Justice, representing the 509 1 Executive Office of the President and the 2 FBI. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro, 4 from the Department of Justice, representing 5 the same Defendants. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 7 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 8 Lady. With me to my left is Andrew Ferguson. 9 MR. MAZUR: I guess it's me. My 10 name is Robert Mazur, Wachtell Lipton Rosen & 11 Katz, and with me is Ian Bosco, who's a 12 summer associate with our firm. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Bob, hold that 14 thought. I'll let you know when it's your 15 turn. 16 MR. MAZUR: I won't forget. 17 MR. PIFER: John Pifer, FBI 18 Counsel's Office. 19 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson, 20 White House Counsel's Office. 21 MR. MAZUR: Once again, I'm Bob 22 Mazur of Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz, 510 1 counsel for Bernard Nussbuam, and with me is 2 Ian Bosco, who's a summer associate at our 3 law firm. 4 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS 5 FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION AND 6 EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT 7 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 8 Q Mr. Livingstone, you understand 9 that you're still under oath as administered 10 at your last deposition? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q First of all, Mr. Livingstone, you 13 testified at your deposition on May 26 about 14 files maintained by the Office of Personnel 15 Security. Do you remember that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q You refer to them on a number of 18 occasions as personnel files. Do you recall 19 that? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Assumes 21 facts not testified to and leading. 22 MR. COHEN: Go ahead, you can 511 1 answer. 2 THE WITNESS: Is he finished? 3 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 4 Q I think so. 5 A Yes, I do. I recall personnel 6 security files is what I was referring to. 7 Q Personnel security files are the 8 files that OPS maintained? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 11 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 12 Q And what sorts of documentation, 13 generally speaking, did these personnel 14 security files contain? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 16 foundation. 17 THE WITNESS: Personnel security 18 files, which were the files that we 19 maintained in my office, were initiated for 20 passholders, people requesting passes, people 21 requesting access to The White House. 22 Generally in these files would be generated a 512 1 request for background investigation to be 2 initiated, a signed and dated form for the 3 IRS called a tax check waiver authoring us to 4 access IRS information on the passholder 5 requestee, and I believe an interview -- 6 introductory interview for prospective 7 employees, passholders. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q Are these the files in which FBI 10 background reports on passholders would be 11 maintained? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 13 compound. 14 THE WITNESS: Right the only file 15 we would have on individuals is a personnel 16 security file and as part of that, when the 17 FBI would supply information as requested by 18 The White House pursuant to employment or 19 access to The White House, the summary 20 background investigation would be placed in 21 the personnel security file. 22 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 513 1 Q Do you know whether there was an 2 office in EOP that was responsible for 3 maintaining personnel files on White House 4 employees? 5 A Yes, I can think of one. That 6 would be the Office of Administration, and 7 they maintained information on salary, 8 positions, and information like that. 9 Q Information such as health 10 benefits? 11 A I can speak from personal 12 experience that would be correct, health 13 benefits and IRA, that type of thing. 14 Q Do you remember testifying at your 15 deposition on May 26 about Billy Dale's 16 personnel security file? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 19 foundation. 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q Do you remember testifying about 22 occasions when you were asked to bring 514 1 Mr. Dale's personnel security file to 2 attorneys in The White House Counsel's 3 Office? 4 A Yes, sir, I do. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 6 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 7 Q How many such occasions do you 8 recall? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 10 foundation, leading. 11 THE WITNESS: I can think of two. 12 Most recently would have been the request 13 from Ms. Jane Sherburne. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q When was that request from 16 Ms. Sherburne? 17 A Shortly before my departure from 18 The White House staff, Ms. Sherburne 19 explained to me that she was directed by 20 counsel and chief of staff to conduct a 21 review of how it was that we had Mr. Dale's 22 summary background file. 515 1 Q And did I understand you correctly 2 to say this request from Ms. Sherburne came 3 about the time you left The White House? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 6 compound. 7 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 8 Q And can you tell us what month and 9 year that was? 10 A It was 1996, to be sure. I believe 11 about a month before my departure. 12 Q And when was your departure? 13 A It's not a date that I remember 14 specifically. 15 Q The month, the season? 16 A I think it was June or July. 17 Q June or July of 1996 and the 18 request from Ms. Sherburne came about a month 19 before that? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 21 assumes facts not testified to. 22 THE WITNESS: Based on refreshing 516 1 my memory, thinking about the date, it may 2 have been less, actually. 3 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 4 Q How about, then, the other occasion 5 you recall? Can you tell me when that took 6 place? 7 A I know that it happened sometime 8 after the departure of Mr. Dale. 9 Q Do you recall who made the request? 10 A I'm not positive but I believe it 11 was in response to either an internal audit 12 or a Congressional or one of its bodies doing 13 an investigation. 14 Q An investigation of what? 15 A I believe on the dismissal of the 16 Travel Office employees. 17 Q And was this request to see 18 Mr. Dale's personnel security file made by 19 somebody in the counsel's Office? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 21 compound, lacks foundation. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, that's the only 517 1 person or the only body within The White 2 House that could request a personnel file. 3 No one outside of counsel's office ever 4 requested a file. 5 MR. MAZUR: Mr. Livingstone, can I 6 ask you to keep your voice up, please? I'm 7 sorry, it's hard to hear on the phone. 8 THE WITNESS: It's not a problem. 9 Sorry about that. Can you hear me now? 10 MR. MAZUR: Yes, thank you very 11 much. 12 THE WITNESS: As I recall, if I 13 need to restate it for you, we never 14 presented a personnel security file to anyone 15 outside of counsel's office. 16 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 17 Q But do you recall exactly whom in 18 the counsel's office it was on this earlier 19 occasion who requested to see Mr. Dale's 20 personnel security file? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall 518 1 specifically, but I just remember it being 2 after their departure. 3 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 4 Q Finally, do you recall testifying 5 on May 26 about conversations you had with 6 Jane Sherburne and Sally Paxton concerning 7 the FBI files matter? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you remember who initiated that 10 conversation? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague and 12 ambiguous. 13 THE WITNESS: I believe 14 Ms. Sherburne. 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q In response to Mr. Klayman's 17 objection I'll state it differently. Was it 18 you who asked to speak to Ms. Sherburne or 19 was it Ms. Sherburne who asked to speak to 20 you about it? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 22 THE WITNESS: Most assuredly, it 519 1 was Ms. Sherburne. 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q And did she explain to you what the 4 purpose of the conversation was? 5 A Yes, sir, she did. 6 Q And what was it? 7 A She explained to me along with 8 Ms. Nimitz, I believe, or one of her 9 associates, that they were directed to try 10 and figure out what had happened in regards 11 to us having information. 12 Q And what information is that, just 13 for the record? 14 A Mr. Dale's background summary. 15 Q Anyone else's background summary? 16 A She didn't discuss it. 17 Q And who was it who asked 18 Ms. Sherburne to undertake that? 19 A Excuse me, at some point in that 20 conversation she did ask if there are other 21 individuals. 22 Q Thank you for that clarification 520 1 but do you recall at whose request 2 Ms. Sherburne was undertaking that inquiry? 3 A I understood it to be at the 4 direction of chief of staff to counsel's 5 office to do that. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: One moment. 7 I have no further questions. 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 9 HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Mr. Livingstone, I just have a few 12 questions for you. My name, if you got the 13 lawyers confused in the room, is Paul 14 Gaffney. I'm with the law firm of Williams & 15 Connolly, and I represent Mrs. Clinton in 16 this matter. 17 MR. MAZUR: Paul, could I ask you 18 to keep your voice up, also, please? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Yes. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Mr. Livingstone, did Hillary Rodham 22 Clinton ever direct or request that you 521 1 obtain any individual's FBI background 2 investigative summary? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Did Hillary Rodham Clinton ever 7 direct or request that you obtain any 8 individual's FBI file? 9 A Absolutely not. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading 11 and ambiguous. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: You may want to 13 repeat your answer. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Could you repeat your answer? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and 17 ambiguous and leading. 18 THE WITNESS: Would you mind asking 19 the question again? 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Sure. Did Hillary Rodham Clinton 22 ever direct or request that you obtain any 522 1 individual's FBI file? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading 3 vague and ambiguous. 4 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q I want to ask you a couple 7 questions about Anthony Marceca. Did you 8 help Mr. Marceca get his detail to The White 9 House? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q Did Mr. Marceca work under your 12 supervision? 13 A Mr. Marceca worked in my -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading. 15 THE WITNESS: Mr. Marceca worked in 16 my office. He was directly supervised by 17 Ms. Mari Anderson and Ms. Lisa Wetzl. 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q Would it be fair to say he worked 20 indirectly under your supervision? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 523 1 vague and ambiguous. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q Did Hillary Rodham Clinton direct 4 you to hire Anthony Marceca to work in the 5 Office of Personnel Security? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading. 7 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q Are you aware of any contact or 10 communications, direct or indirect, between 11 Hillary Rodham Clinton and Anthony Marceca -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 13 foundation. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q While he was working in the Office 16 of Personnel Security? 17 A I'm aware of none. 18 Q Did Hillary Rodham Clinton ever 19 control, directly or indirectly, the conduct 20 of Anthony Marceca while he was working in 21 the Office of Personnel Security? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 524 1 vague and ambiguous, lacks foundation. 2 THE WITNESS: I do not believe so. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: I have no further 4 questions. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Bob, do you have 6 anything? 7 MR. MAZUR: I don't. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: What time do you 9 have, Mr. Holley? 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 2:04. 11 MR. COHEN: For the record by my 12 count that was 11 minutes and 27 seconds. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: What does that mean? 14 MR. COHEN: That's how long the 15 cross-examination took and I think as 16 Mr. Gilligan informed you in correspondence a 17 few days ago Mr. Livingstone is willing to 18 remain for redirect examination for as much 19 time as the cross-examination took. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that a court 21 order? Is this what you're going under? Can 22 you cite the court order that says that we're 525 1 limited to 11 minutes? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Please direct that 3 question to Mr. Cohen, Mr. Klayman. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: What court order are 5 you referring to that limits us to 11 6 minutes. 7 MR. COHEN: The court order that's 8 relevant, Mr. Klayman, is the one that limits 9 you to six hours. You have had your full six 10 hours. I am and Mr. Livingstone is willing 11 to allow you as much time for redirect as the 12 cross-examination lasted. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that your 14 position? 15 MR. COHEN: That's my position. 16 Why don't you continue with questions, if you 17 have any? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I will go 11 19 minutes and then we'll go back to the court 20 on the rest. 21 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Because that is not 526 1 what the court ordered, and certain questions 2 were asked (a) leading, (b) lacked 3 foundation, and (c) conclusory, which are 4 based on a number of different factual 5 premisses that need to be explored and that's 6 why 11 minutes is not sufficient. 7 Do you wish to reconsider your 8 position? 9 MR. COHEN: Why don't you go ahead 10 and ask your questions, Mr. Klayman? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you going to 12 reconsider? 13 MR. COHEN: Not at this point. 14 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 15 PLAINTIFFS 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Mr. Livingstone, between the time 18 of your last deposition and today did you 19 review your testimony from your last 20 deposition? 21 A I have not reviewed the complete 22 testimony from my deposition, no. 527 1 Q What did you review from your last 2 deposition? 3 A I've seen what are purported to be 4 segments of my deposition on the Internet. 5 Q Where did you see them on the 6 Internet? 7 A Various Web sites. 8 Q Which Web sites did you see them 9 on? 10 A I'm not positive. As I said, there 11 were snippets and they were purported to be 12 parts of my deposition. I have not seen my 13 deposition as presented to me. 14 Q You haven't seen a written 15 transcript? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q You haven't seen a video? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q Which Web sites are you talking 20 about? 21 A It may have been Free Republic. 22 Q Did you have an opportunity to talk 528 1 with counsel about your previous testimony 2 between the time of your last testimony and 3 your appearance here today? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Just one moment. 8 MR. COHEN: That's a yes-or-no 9 question. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Who did you talk to and when? 13 MR. COHEN: You can answer that. 14 THE WITNESS: I talked to my 15 counsel. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Which counsel? 18 A David Cohen. 19 Q How long did you talk to Mr. Cohen 20 about it? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection and I'll 22 direct the witness not to answer as that 529 1 invades the attorney-client privilege. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: On the amount of 3 time? 4 MR. COHEN: I believe it does 5 invade the attorney-client privilege, but I 6 will allow him to answer that question. 7 THE WITNESS: I haven't had a lot 8 of time, as much as I would have liked to 9 have had, to talk to my attorney about my 10 previous testimony. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q How much time? 13 A I'd say less than 20 minutes. 14 Q Did you do that in person or were 15 you in Mr. Cohen's office at the time? 16 A No. 17 Q You did that by phone? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Was anyone else present on the 20 telephone call? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you talked to Mr. Gilligan or 530 1 anyone from the Department of Justice about 2 your testimony since your last deposition 3 session last week? 4 A Yes. 5 Q When did you talk to Mr. Gilligan? 6 A I talked to him briefly today. 7 Q How long did you talk to him? 8 A I'd say 5 minutes. 9 Q Who else was present during the 10 conversation? 11 A My counsel. 12 Q Mr. Cohen? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Anyone else? 15 A His associate. 16 Q Who is that? 17 A Mr. Cohen's associate. 18 Q Who is that? 19 A I don't know the gentleman's name, 20 but he's seated here. I apologize. 21 Q Was anyone else present? 22 A During our conversation, no. 531 1 Q Was someone present after the 2 conversation? 3 A People, I'm not sure of their 4 names, walked in and out of the room. 5 Q Were you also discussing this case 6 at that time? 7 A No. 8 Q During your conversation today with 9 Mr. Gilligan, did he show you anything? 10 A No. 11 Q During the conversations that you 12 had with Mr. Cohen or Mr. Gilligan, did they 13 discuss what questions they were going to ask 14 you today? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 17 MR. COHEN: Direct the witness not 18 to answer that question. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Didn't ask what the 20 questions were, just whether they discussed 21 the question. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 532 1 MR. COHEN: Same objection, 2 violates attorney-client privilege. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify. I'm not 5 asking for the questions, just whether you 6 discussed the questions. 7 MR. COHEN: That is a question that 8 goes to the substance of conversations that I 9 had with my client, and that is an 10 attorney-client communication, and I direct 11 the witness not to answer that question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for 13 the general responses either. I'm just 14 asking whether questions were discussed. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: You're clear on that? 17 MR. COHEN: I understand. You're 18 asking what I said to my client, and I'm 19 directing my client not to answer. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You still instruct 21 him not to answer? 22 MR. COHEN: I just said I'm 533 1 instructing my client not to answer. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q During the time of your last 5 deposition, which I believe was last 6 Wednesday, to today, have you discussed this 7 case or your testimony to Judicial Watch or 8 any aspect of this proceeding with anyone? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, compound. 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I spoke to my attorney by phone. 15 Q Who, other than that? 16 A I spoke to my attorney and 17 Mr. Gilligan. 18 Q Mr. Who? 19 A I'm sorry. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Gilligan. You got 21 it, believe it or not. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 534 1 Q Mr. Gilligan's not your attorney; I 2 take it? 3 A Yes. I didn't say he was my 4 attorney. I said I spoke to my attorney and 5 Mr. Gilligan. 6 Q You don't consider Mr. Gilligan 7 your attorney? 8 A No. 9 Q You don't consider anybody at the 10 Justice Department your attorney? 11 A Why would I? 12 MR. COHEN: I object to the form of 13 the question. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, calls for 15 a legal conclusion. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can respond. 18 A I said, why would I? 19 Q Have you discussed the case with 20 anybody else other than Mr. Cohen and 21 Mr. Gilligan? 22 A I don't have any specific 535 1 recollections of talking to anybody. 2 Q Let me have the general 3 recollection of whom you talked to. It 4 wasn't very long ago; it was less than a week 5 ago. 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 9 specific recollection of talking to anyone 10 about it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q What do you mean by specific 13 recollection? Where did you hear that 14 phrase? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What does specific recollection 19 mean to you? 20 A Mean? I can't think of a 21 particular name that I may have talked to 22 about it. 536 1 Q That's a phrase which was taught to 2 you by The White House Counsel's Office, when 3 you don't want to answer something you say 4 specific recollection? 5 A It's your time, Mr. Klayman. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 7 form of the question. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: It's your time, 10 Mr. Klayman. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Is that the answer to my question? 13 A Sure is. 14 Q You refuse to answer the question? 15 A Absolutely not. I'd be happy to 16 answer it. 17 Q Where did you hear the phrase 18 "specific recollection"? 19 A I don't have a specific 20 recollection of where I heard the phrase 21 "specific recollection," sir. 22 Q How about if you give us your 537 1 general recollection? Whom did you talk to 2 in the last week? 3 A I think that's a fair question. 4 I'd be happy to answer it. Probably, my 5 parents. 6 Q Where do they live? 7 A My father lives at his -- 8 MR. COHEN: Objection, relevance. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Who are your parents? 11 A David and Gloria Livingstone. 12 Q Where are they residing these days? 13 A Right now, my father's at the VA 14 Hospital, as of this very moment, recovering 15 from five strokes. He's undergoing therapy. 16 Q Is that in the D.C. area? 17 A Yeah, right down the street. 18 Q Where does he reside? 19 A He resides at 19312 Dunbridge Way. 20 Q What did you say to your mother and 21 your father? 22 A I said that it was a tedious six 538 1 hours. 2 Q What else did you say? 3 A I don't really have a specific 4 recollection of what else I said. 5 Q Let's have your general 6 recollection. 7 A I tend not to talk to my parents 8 about these things, because people tend to 9 abuse the information that I have discussed 10 with my parents, which I consider private. 11 Q Who has abused it? 12 A Other people. 13 Q Who? 14 A People on the Net, who offer 15 threats against my life, my mother's life, 16 other people, anti-Clinton people. 17 Q What do you mean? Do you care to 18 elaborate further? 19 A Not particularly. I think it's 20 pretty self explanatory. 21 Q You're telling me that you won't 22 say what you discussed with your mother and 539 1 father, because of threats on the Internet? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 5 mischaracterizes the testimony. 6 MR. COHEN: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I think I said 8 pretty clearly, Mr. Klayman, that I think 9 that when I talk about somebody I care about, 10 it tends to get abused. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q I'm not asking you for -- 13 A The last person I can think of was 14 you casting aspersions about my so-called 15 religious conversion. I didn't have a 16 religious conversion. I looked hard inside 17 of my life and decided I want to do better, 18 in spite of people like you. 19 Q Are you doing better now? 20 A I'm trying. 21 Q Well then, tell me what you said to 22 your parents about the case. I'm not 540 1 interested in anything personal. 2 A I don't care to. 3 Q You have to respond. 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the 5 instruction, Mr. Klayman. 6 THE WITNESS: I talked to my 7 parents about my general feeling of your 8 questions, the time, the drive home, those 9 kind of things. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Tell me what, specifically, you 12 discussed about your testimony with your 13 parents. 14 MR. COHEN: Objection, irrelevant. 15 THE WITNESS: That's it. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q That's based on your general 18 recollection, not your specific recollection; 19 I take it? 20 A I believe we discussed that several 21 times. 22 Q You're not going to tell me what, 541 1 specifically, you remember? You're just 2 going to generalize it? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection 4 mischaracterizes the testimony. 5 THE WITNESS: Perhaps you didn't 6 hear me. My father has had five strokes 7 within the last several months. I don't 8 think I got into any details, other than it's 9 six hours longer. 10 Q You were deposed last Wednesday? 11 A I believe that's correct. 12 Q That was only about five days ago, 13 six days ago, correct? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q Not very long ago, right? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection. Actually, 17 it was two weeks ago. Do you have a 18 question, Mr. Klayman? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q It wasn't long ago; was it? 21 Whenever it was? 22 A No, sir, it wasn't long ago. 542 1 Q Can you try to sum it up, your 2 specific recollection, and see if you can 3 elucidate the court with that? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. I don't believe you are the 6 court, Mr. Klayman. Go ahead and answer the 7 question. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 9 specific recollection talking about anything 10 other than what I've discussed, sir, and I've 11 answered the question four times now. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Well, no. You made a distinction 14 between a specific recollection and a general 15 recollection. I'm asking you to sum it up, 16 your specific recollection, and tell us 17 exactly what was discussed, because it wasn't 18 very long ago, Mr. Livingstone. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. Asked and answered. 21 THE WITNESS: Let me try it real 22 slow for you. I got home. I said hi. Love 543 1 you. How was your day? My father has 2 difficulty speaking. Because he suffers from 3 what's been diagnosed as a brain disorder -- 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I'm not interested in your father's 6 personal life. 7 A You seem to want a general -- 8 MR. COHEN: Mr. Klayman, you asked 9 a question. Let him answer the question. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to know what 11 was discussed about the case. 12 THE WITNESS: Then he said, where 13 were you today? And I said, I had to give a 14 deposition. And he said, how'd it go? And I 15 said, it lasted about six hours. It's good 16 to see you. Don't think I said anything 17 different to my mom. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You had a separate conversation 20 with your mom? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: She may or may not 544 1 have been in the room at the same time. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Has your mother or father ever 4 asked you whether, indeed, you did get the 5 files of Republicans? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. It's beyond the scope of 8 cross. It's irrelevant. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: I believe my father, 11 at the very beginning, asked me if, what was 12 going on, if I had any idea what was going 13 on? 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q What did you tell him? 16 A I said I believed that there was an 17 error made, and that unlike most people in 18 Washington, I stood up and took 19 responsibility for that error and my office's 20 part in that error. 21 MR. COHEN: I would note, 22 Mr. Klayman, it's now been over 12 minutes, 545 1 and I want to take a break at this at this 2 point. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the break for? 4 MR. COHEN: I want to consult with 5 my client. That's what the break's for. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 8 video record at 2:18. 9 (Recess) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 11 video record at 2:25. 12 MR. COHEN: Mr. Klayman, if you 13 care to ask any questions following up on the 14 cross-examination, we will remain for 12 15 minutes of questioning on that topic. If you 16 intend to continue to ask questions regarding 17 Mr. Livingstone's conversations with his 18 parents, we're done. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I never asked 20 questions about his parents, Mr. Cohen. I 21 was asking who he talked with in the interim 22 period. He did talk about the case; it's 546 1 relevant. Much of his testimony that he just 2 gave, after having had the opportunity to 3 consult with you and Mr. Gilligan, is at 4 variance with what he testified to when he 5 testified the last time. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: These are legitimate 8 and relevant questions. 9 MR. COHEN: That little speech is, 10 obviously, incorrect, but it's your little 11 speech. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm prepared to prove 13 it. 14 MR. COHEN: If you would like to 15 follow up on the cross-examination with 16 redirect, you have 12 minutes. You have 17 exhausted who Mr. Livingstone has spoken with 18 about this deposition, about his prior 19 deposition. We're not going to remain for 20 further questions -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: So your position 22 is -- 547 1 MR. COHEN: Let me finish, 2 Mr. Klayman. We're not going to remain for 3 further questions about his parents. You've 4 got 12 more minutes to ask relevant 5 questions. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That's your firm 7 position? 8 MR. COHEN: That is my position, 9 Mr. Klayman. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that your 11 position, Mr. Gilligan? 12 MR. GILLIGAN: It's up to the 13 witness. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that your 15 position? 16 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm not -- 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Is that your position, 19 Mr. Livingstone? 20 MR. COHEN: Mr. Klayman, direct 21 your question to me. You have our position. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 548 1 Q Is that your position, 2 Mr. Livingstone? 3 MR. COHEN: Mr. Klayman, you have 4 our position. If you'd like to ask 5 questions, please begin doing so. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll adjourn the 7 deposition now and seek court relief. 8 MR. COHEN: Let the record reflect, 9 we are prepared to remain for 12 minutes, 10 which is as long as the cross-examination 11 lasted, so that Mr. Klayman can ask questions 12 which were covered in the cross-examination 13 on redirect. Mr. Klayman has chosen not to 14 do so, and is getting up and leaving. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: That's correct, 16 because what you're doing is obstructing the 17 court's order. As I said earlier, you've 18 asked certain conclusory questions. I cannot 19 do that in 12 minutes. 20 I'm also not finished asking 21 questions about who he talked to about this 22 case between his last deposition and today, 549 1 and you've said I can't do that. We'll seek 2 court relief. 3 MR. COHEN: Why don't you ask him a 4 question, Mr. Klayman, if he's spoken to 5 anybody else, other than who he testified to? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to 7 proceed further. 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEPONENT 9 BY MR. COHEN: 10 Q Other than the people -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You're in the middle 12 of my testimony. You can't do that. 13 MR. COHEN: You just got up and 14 left. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to get 16 court order on this. 17 MR. COHEN: I'm going to ask a 18 question of Mr. Livingstone, because you may 19 belaboring under a mis-impression about who 20 Mr. Livingstone -- 21 MR. KLAYMAN: You just fed him 22 testimony, Mr. Cohen. That's improper too. 550 1 Good-bye. 2 BY MR. COHEN: 3 Q Mr. Livingstone, did you speak with 4 anyone, other than persons you have 5 previously testified, regarding your 6 testimony at your last deposition, between 7 the time of your last deposition and today? 8 A I've had no substantive discussions 9 with any individuals, outside of my immediate 10 family, about anything involving the 11 deposition whatsoever. 12 Q Your counsel? 13 A And my counsel, that's correct. 14 MR. COHEN: Okay. Now, 15 Mr. Klayman, I think it's apparent that 16 there's no further fruitful inquiry on who 17 Craig Livingstone may have spoken with line 18 of questions. If you would like to ask 19 questions regarding the cross-examination, 20 you're welcome to do so. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: That's wholly 22 inappropriate. The testimony speaks for 551 1 itself. You led him into that question. You 2 told him what to say. You have interrupted 3 my examination. We will be seeking 4 appropriate relief with the court, including 5 attorneys' fees and costs. Thank you. 6 MR. COHEN: Suffice it to say that 7 I wholeheartedly disagree with that 8 characterization, and let the record 9 Mr. Klayman and his entourage are leaving the 10 room. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 12 video record -- 13 MR. COHEN: Why don't you get a 14 video of them walking out of the room, if you 15 wouldn't mind? 16 THE WITNESS: Sir, before you go 17 off record, I'd like to make a brief 18 statement. 19 I have come here today at great 20 stress. I'm caring for a very ill parent. I 21 took time out of my day. I left the hospital 22 immediately. In fact, I called from the 552 1 hospital to my counsel to ensure that I would 2 arrive on time for this deposition. 3 Mr. Klayman chose to not ask me 4 questions that would seem appropriate to the 5 testimony I've offered here today. I 6 continue to sit here, in an attempt to offer 7 testimony and show that I gave an earnest 8 effort to meet the court's orders, requests, 9 or desires to make myself available for 10 testimony. Mr. Klayman chose to walk out of 11 here and to deny me that opportunity. Thank 12 you. 13 MR. COHEN: With that, we're 14 adjourned. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 16 video record at 2:31. 17 (Whereupon, at 2:31 p.m., the 18 deposition of DAVID CRAIG 19 LIVINGSTONE was adjourned.) 20 * * * * * 21 22