554 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 3 -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Wednesday, August 18, 1999 12 Continued deposition of 13 DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Defendants pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 11:02 a.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain of Beta 20 Reporting & Videography Services, notary 21 public in and for the District of Columbia, 22 when were present on behalf on the respective 555 1 parties: 2 APPEARANCES: 3 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 4 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 501 School Street S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 6 (202) 646-5172 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 8 Office of the President: 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 10 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 11 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, D.C. 20004 12 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 14 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 15 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 16 (202) 434-5175 17 On behalf of Deponent: 18 DAVID S. COHEN, ESQUIRE Miller Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, L.L.P. 19 2555 M Street N.W. Washington. D.C. 20037-1302 20 (202) 833-6503 21 ALSO PRESENT: 22 Thomas Fitton, Alex Willscher 556 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 559 4 *Questions transcribed at pages 575, 580, 584, 586, 589, 593, 599, 607, 612, 617, 620, 5 621, and 624 marked per request. 6 LIVINGSTONE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 7 No. 1 - Book Extract 561 8 9 * * * * * 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 557 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of Craig 4 Livingstone taken by counsel for the 5 plaintiff in the matter of Alexander v. FBI. 6 Good morning. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Good morning. Did 8 Ms. Giles give birth already? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: She did. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Send her our 11 congratulations. Girl or boy? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Boy. 13 MR. COHEN: We are on the record. 14 Larry. We're on the record. He's doing his 15 little intro. Go ahead. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: At Civil Action 17 No. 96-2123, held in the offices of Judicial 18 Watch at 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 19 725, Washington, D.C. 20024, on this date, 20 which is August 18, 1999, and at the time 21 indicated on the video screen. It is now 22 11:02. 558 1 My name is Peter Lee Ayres. I'm 2 the video specialist. The court reporter 3 today is Joan Cain from the firm of Beta 4 Reporting. 5 Counsel, will you now please 6 introduce yourselves? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 8 chairman and general counsel of Judicial 9 Watch. 10 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president, 11 Judicial Watch. 12 MR. COHEN: David Cohen, Miller 13 Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, for the witness. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro 15 from the Department of Justice on behalf of 16 the Executive Office of the President and the 17 FBI. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 19 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 20 Lady. With me today is Alex Willscher, a 21 summer associate at Williams & Connolly. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Are we ready? 559 1 Whereupon, 2 DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE 3 was recalled as a witness and, having been 4 previously duly sworn, was examined and 5 testified further as follows: 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 7 CONTINUED 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Mr. Livingstone, you're aware that 10 you are still under oath? 11 A I am aware of that. 12 Q I'll show you what has been 13 transcribed as a transcript of your 14 appearance before this court on May 26, 1999, 15 volume 1 of that transcript, morning session. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Do you have copies 17 for the rest of us, Larry? 18 MR. FITTON: I don't. If you like, 19 I can make you copies of just the pages. 20 It's just the question that was posed. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't we continue 22 for now? 560 1 MR. COHEN: Are you marking this as 2 an exhibit, Larry? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Not necessary. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q The question was posed to you which 6 led to another question which is the basis 7 upon which you're here with reasonable 8 follow-up questions. 9 "I think the President of the 10 United States stated quite clearly that he 11 thought it was a bureaucratic snafu brought 12 by outdated ill-kept records of the U.S. 13 Secret Service, the FBI, and Counsel's 14 Office." That was your answer to a previous 15 question. 16 I then asked, "Where did the 17 President get that information?" 18 Your counsel, Mr. Cohen, objected 19 but then you answered, "I have no idea." 20 I turn your attention to an 21 excerpt -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'll ask that 561 1 this be marked as Exhibit 1 to this 2 deposition today. 3 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibit 4 No. 1 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q From the book by Bob Woodward, 8 entitled Shadow. I'm going to read you part 9 of this book and ask you a question about it 10 because it relates to your testimony that 11 day. 12 MR. COHEN: Larry, you can go ahead 13 and ask this question. I'm going to tell 14 you, though, that we're here to answer the 15 question that you haven't asked yet, which 16 follows the question and answer that you just 17 read from the transcript. I have no 18 intention of allowing you to ask questions 19 other than the question that was objected to 20 at Mr. Livingstone's first deposition and 21 reasonably related follow-up questions to his 22 answer to that question. 562 1 MR. KLAYMAN: These two questions 2 are tied. Let me set the foundation for 3 this. I think you'll see how I'm asking this 4 and why the two questions are tied. 5 MR. COHEN: You're forwarned. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q At page 327 of Shadow by Bob 8 Woodward, he writes -- if you'd like to read 9 it, Mr. Livingstone, you're free to do so -- 10 "The FBI agents came, put on rubber gloves 11 and did an inventory of the records. The 12 records personnel signed affidavits and the 13 boxes were carried back to the FBI. 14 "The next morning Panetta, Ickes, 15 Stephanopoulos, and Sherburne went to inform 16 the President. 17 "'What,' Clinton said. He 18 disparaged the terrible ineptitude of the 19 first year and a half of his administration. 20 Panetta who had come in as chief of staff 21 after those first 18 months, joined in the 22 criticism. 563 1 "Clinton blew up --" 2 MR. COHEN: Larry, can I stop you 3 for a second? Where are you reading? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Page 327. 5 MR. COHEN: Where? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll start over 7 again. 8 MR. COHEN: Just tell me where it 9 is. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Right in the middle. 11 Let me start over again. 12 MR. COHEN: Don't. I think your 13 dramatic reading has been very effective. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to start 15 over again. 16 "The FBI agents came, put on rubber 17 gloves, and did an inventory of the records. 18 The records personnel signed affidavits and 19 the boxes were carried back to the FBI. 20 "The next morning Panetta, Ickes, 21 Stephanopoulos, and Sherburne went to inform 22 the President. 564 1 "'What,' Clinton said. He 2 disparaged the terrible ineptitude of the 3 first year and a half of his administration. 4 Panetta, who had come in as chief of staff 5 after those first months, joined in the 6 criticism. 7 "Clinton blew up. Here were the 8 Travel Office firings, like old ghosts, 9 jumping out of the closet again. What was 10 the explanation? Sherburne said she didn't 11 have one. Clinton interrogated her. Why 12 didn't they know what happened? 13 "The only way to stop his anger was 14 to be blunt. 'If I had an answer, 15 Mr. President,' she said, 'I'd give it to 16 you, but I can't make it up.' 17 "They discussed what the 18 President's public response might be. 19 Because of the uproar, he was going to have 20 to say something. Stephanopoulos had already 21 sought to frame it as a bureaucratic blunder. 22 The President was scornful of that approach." 565 1 Now, Mr. Livingstone, the President 2 did not believe that the obtaining of the FBI 3 files was an innocent bureaucratic snafu, 4 correct? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 6 answer the question. Mr. Klayman, let's be 7 clear here. The question that we are here 8 today for Mr. Livingstone to answer is on 9 page 80, line 15, of Mr. Livingstone's 10 deposition transcript, May 26, 1999. The 11 question that follows from what you had read 12 earlier, where the word "bureaucratic snafu" 13 was used is this: "Question: Is that 14 something that you told Ms. Sherburne or 15 Ms. Paxton when you met with them, this was 16 just an innocent bureaucratic snafu?" 17 Mr. Gilligan, counsel for the EOP, 18 interposed an objection and instructed 19 Mr. Livingstone not to answer that question. 20 I understand that objection has now 21 been withdrawn. Mr. Livingstone is here to 22 answer that question and reasonably related 566 1 follow-up to his answer to that question. I 2 am not going to allow him to answer the 3 question you just asked because it is not 4 that question on page 80 of his deposition 5 nor a reasonably related follow-up question 6 to his answer to that question. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: The two questions are 8 tied. That's why I read them. Because the 9 sequence of this question, the answer given 10 by Mr. Livingstone at page 80 of his 11 deposition, "I think the President of the 12 United States stated quite clearly that he 13 thought it was a bureaucratic snafu brought 14 by an outdated, ill-kept records of the U.S. 15 Secret Service, the FBI and Counsel's 16 Office." 17 "Question: Where did the President 18 get that information"? You objected, 19 Mr. Cohen. The President then answered, "I 20 have no idea" -- 21 MR. COHEN: It was Mr. Livingstone. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me finish. 567 1 Mr. Livingstone said, "I have no idea." The 2 next question that I asked is tied to the 3 response to the earlier question, which I've 4 just read, and the question is, "Is that 5 something that you told Ms. Sherburne or 6 Ms. Paxton when you met with them, this was 7 just an innocent bureaucratic snafu." 8 So my asking that question -- 9 MR. COHEN: Do you want an answer 10 to that question? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you let me 12 finish? That question is tied to what 13 Mr. Livingstone claims the President told him 14 that it was just an innocent bureaucratic 15 snafu. Now, according to this book by Bob 16 Woodward, which is quoting Ms. Sherburne, the 17 President never thought it was a bureaucratic 18 snafu. So I'm entitled to ask the question 19 because they are tied. 20 MR. COHEN: Number one, 21 Mr. Livingstone never testified that the 22 President told him it was an innocent 568 1 bureaucratic snafu and that's a 2 mischaracterization of this testimony. 3 Secondly, I disagree respectfully with your 4 view that this is somehow tied to the 5 question Mr. Livingstone is here to answer. 6 I'm not going to allow him to answer the 7 question you asked regarding the President 8 and whatever that question was that I 9 objected to. He's not going to answer it. 10 Now, if you want to ask him the 11 question that Mr. Gilligan objected to at his 12 deposition, you are free to do so. If you 13 don't, I don't know why we're here. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm certainly going 15 to ask the question, but I'm just laying the 16 foundation as to why they're tied because the 17 way Mr. Livingstone testifies, the concept of 18 the innocent bureaucratic snafu, is stated to 19 come from the President. Now, Ms. Sherburne 20 states in the book written by Bob Woodward, 21 which she admits is accurate as to this 22 point, that the President didn't believe it 569 1 was an innocent bureaucratic snafu. So, 2 therefore, there is a tie between the two 3 questions and the answers. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the 5 characterization of Ms. Sherburne's 6 testimony. 7 (Witness conferred with counsel) 8 MR. COHEN: Whether Ms. Sherburne 9 testified to that, I have no idea. I tend to 10 agree with the objection interposed, though, 11 because you have a tendency to mis- 12 characterize testimony. But be that as it 13 may, he is not going to answer the question 14 you asked. 15 If you want to ask a question that 16 he's here to answer, go ahead. If you want 17 to proceed down this track, Mr. Klayman, 18 you're wasting everybody's time, and we're 19 not going to sit around here much longer 20 while that occurs. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I just read the 22 questions. If you have a problem with the 570 1 way I read them, fine. I don't think it's 2 necessary to insult me and tell me that I 3 mischaracterized questions and answers. 4 MR. COHEN: Which questions? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Those I just read. 6 MR. COHEN: That's my experience. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: The judge has asked 8 that we be civil. I take offense at it. I 9 ask that you not do it again. 10 MR. COHEN: Fine. If you would 11 like to ask Mr. Livingstone the question that 12 begins on page 80 line 15, do so. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand your 14 instruction and we will move accordingly. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q The next question that was posed, 17 is that something that you told Ms. Sherburne 18 or Ms. Paxton when you met with them, this 19 was just an innocent bureaucratic snafu? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you meet with Ms. Sherburne and 22 Ms. Paxton and discuss this controversy which 571 1 later became known as Filegate? 2 MR. COHEN: Let me object on 3 grounds of vagueness. I take it we are in 4 the context of the flow of the questions from 5 his prior deposition? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever discuss with 8 Ms. Sherburne or Ms. Paxton the whole issue 9 of the acquisition of FBI files by The White 10 House which is the subject of this lawsuit? 11 A I believe that I did. 12 Q When did you have these 13 discussions? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Do you recall the year? 16 A To be helpful, I'm sure that it was 17 in the context of shortly before my departure 18 from The White House. 19 Q How many meetings did you have with 20 Ms. Sherburne? 21 A I believe we had one or two. 22 Q Did you also discuss this issue 572 1 with her on the phone? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q And what was discussed during those 4 two meetings? 5 A Her concern was on behalf of The 6 White House as to how this possibly could 7 have happened. 8 Q What else did she ask, if anything? 9 A I believe that was the gist of the 10 conversation. They were both fairly short 11 conversations. 12 Q Was anyone else present during the 13 conversation? 14 A I believe at least one of the 15 meetings Ms. Paxton was also present. 16 Q Where did the meetings take place? 17 A In an office in the Executive 18 Office Building. 19 Q What office was that? 20 A Don't know. 21 Q Where generally was it located in 22 the Executive Office Building? 573 1 A Northwest corner, second or third 2 floor. 3 Q Was it Ms. Paxton's office? 4 A I don't recall, sir. 5 Q Was it Ms. Sherburne's office? 6 A I do not recall. 7 Q Was it in The White House Counsel's 8 Office? 9 A I don't know if it was a counsel 10 office or not. 11 Q Was it in Hillary Clinton's office? 12 A I believe I said quite clearly that 13 it was in the Old Executive Office Building, 14 but if you'd like me to say it again, I will. 15 Q Whose office was it near? 16 A I think I've said, but I'll say it 17 again. It was on the second or third 18 northwest corner of the Old Executive Office 19 Building. 20 Q And what part of The White House 21 works in that northwest corner? 22 A Well, on the first floor, I think 574 1 it was GSA or basement, sometimes referred 2 to. The next floor was the office 3 administration -- 4 Q I'm asking where you met. I don't 5 need a whole organogram of The White House, 6 Mr. Livingstone. 7 A I've answered it three times and 8 I'm trying to give you more information. 9 That's all the information I have. Those are 10 the offices that are located in the corner -- 11 of the northwest corner of the Old Executive 12 Office Building. 13 Q Do you know whether it was on the 14 first floor or the second floor? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 16 answered. Why don't you move on, 17 Mr. Klayman, and follow up on the answer 18 which is that he did not -- may I finish? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Feel free. 20 MR. COHEN: Thank you. You asked 21 him a question, whether he told Ms. Sherburne 22 or Ms. Paxton it was an innocent bureaucratic 575 1 snafu. He said no. Why don't you follow up 2 on that answer? You can ask him what he 3 recalls about his conversations with them, 4 what he said to them in these meetings, and 5 what they -- I'm not done, Mr. Klayman -- and 6 what they said to him. The layout of the 7 OEOB is not reasonably related follow-up. 8 Move on. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q *Did these meetings occur on the 11 first or second floor? 12 MR. COHEN: Don't answer it. Move 13 on. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What time of the day did these 17 meetings occur? 18 A Don't know. During the course of a 19 normal work day, 9:00 to 5:00. I don't have 20 any better recollection than that. 21 Q Did you have meetings with 22 Ms. Sherburne where Ms. Paxton was not 576 1 present where these issues were discussed? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 3 answered. Go ahead, answer it. 4 THE WITNESS: I believe that I've 5 answered that question a couple times, but to 6 the best of my recollection Ms. Paxton and 7 Ms. Sherburne were together at least at one 8 meeting. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And what did you say at those 11 meetings? 12 A I believe that we felt that -- my 13 office and myself felt that it was a mistake 14 based on bad information that we received 15 from the Secret Service and sent on to the 16 FBI in good faith requesting the summary 17 reports and the FBI released those. 18 Q You said that you believed it was a 19 mistake. You didn't know for sure it was a 20 mistake, correct? 21 A That was my best -- that was my 22 best recollection of that event. 577 1 Q So the answer's yes? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. The 3 answer's what the answer was, Mr. Klayman. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q The answer's yes, correct? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection. He answered 7 your question in a sentence. He didn't 8 answer your question yes or no. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Mr. Livingstone, you said you 11 believed it was a mistake. You didn't know 12 for sure it was a mistake when you made those 13 statements to Ms. Paxton and Ms. Sherburne, 14 correct? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 16 answered but you can answer that. 17 THE WITNESS: I think I answered 18 that question, Mr. Klayman, but I'll answer 19 it again. I believe that it was a mistake, 20 and I believe at the time that that's what I 21 said to them. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 578 1 Q So the answer to the question which 2 calls for a yes or no is yes, I wasn't sure 3 it was a mistake? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to form of 5 the question. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Correct? 9 MR. COHEN: I don't understand the 10 question. Could you rephrase it? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You were not certain that this was 13 a mistake when you made those statements to 14 Ms. Sherburne and Ms. Paxton, correct? 15 A I believe that at the time I had 16 every good faith that that's exactly what 17 happened. 18 Q But you weren't sure, correct? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 20 answered. 21 THE WITNESS: I will say again, 22 Mr. Klayman, that I said I believed, which 579 1 means I believed in good faith that it was. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q But you didn't have absolute 4 certainty that it was a mistake, correct? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 6 answered. 7 THE WITNESS: No, Mr. Klayman, I 8 did not have absolute certainty. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And what hard evidence did you have 11 that you believed it was a mistake at the 12 time you made these statements to 13 Ms. Sherburne and Ms. Paxton? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q In fact, you didn't have any 16 evidence, did you? 17 A That's not what I said. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I said I don't 21 recall. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 580 1 of the question. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q *That's an important issue, isn't 4 it, Mr. Livingstone? This is the crux of the 5 matter. 6 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 7 answer. Ask your next question. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you have any other discussions 11 with Ms. Sherburne and Ms. Paxton about 12 whether the acquisition of FBI files was an 13 innocent bureaucratic snafu? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the 15 characterization of the testimony. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, I guess it's 17 for the fourth or fifth time, but I'll say it 18 again. I know much I never used those words, 19 "innocent bureaucratic snafu." 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Those were the words of George 22 Stephanopoulos, correct? 581 1 A I don't know. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Where did those words come from? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. You asked him that question 8 in his previous deposition. He gave you -- 9 THE WITNESS: Let's make it clear, 10 Mr. Klayman. 11 MR. COHEN: Craig, hold on a 12 second. 13 He answered that question at his 14 first deposition in this proceeding. It's 15 been asked and answered. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Where did those words come from? 18 A Well, as you know -- I assume you 19 review your transcripts of the previous 20 depositions -- I said quite clearly that the 21 President said it, and it's my belief that 22 along with millions of other people I saw him 582 1 say it on TV or read it in the newspaper or 2 both. 3 Q You are aware that the President 4 didn't believe that it was an innocent 5 bureaucratic snafu, correct? 6 A I am not aware of that. 7 MR. COHEN: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Now, what else, if anything, was 10 discussed with Ms. Sherburne or Ms. Paxton at 11 any time about the reasons for the 12 acquisition of FBI files by The White House? 13 MR. COHEN: I assume you mean did 14 Mr. Livingstone discuss with Ms. Sherburne or 15 Ms. Paxton? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 18 recollection of anything else being 19 discussed. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Your memory's blank? 22 A I said I don't have any 583 1 recollection of any other discussions related 2 to the issue. 3 Q Did you ever have a recollection? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you have a recollection at one 8 time? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. It's a bit metaphysical, 11 isn't it? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you have a recollection at one 14 time, Mr. Livingstone? 15 A Did I have a recollection at one 16 time of what, Mr. Klayman? 17 Q Of any other discussions with 18 Ms. Paxton and Ms. Sherburne about the 19 acquisition of FBI files? 20 MR. COHEN: I object to that 21 question. I don't know how anyone could 22 possibly answer that question, but, if you 584 1 can, go ahead. 2 THE WITNESS: I can. I believe I 3 already answered that question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q *Before this deposition today, did 6 you discuss the answer to the questions I'm 7 posing with your counsel, Mr. Cohen? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 9 answer the question. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. Did you 11 meet with -- 12 MR. COHEN: Just so it's clear, 13 Mr. Klayman, that objection is based on 14 attorney-client privilege. You're asking for 15 the substance of conversation between 16 Mr. Livingstone and myself. That's an 17 attorney-client privileged conversation and 18 he's not going to answer it. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask what was 20 discussed in terms of the answer. I said did 21 you discuss answers with Mr. Cohen? 22 MR. COHEN: I object to that 585 1 question. That clearly calls for the 2 substance of communications between the 3 attorney and client. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Before the last deposition, which 6 you were privy to and today, did you meet 7 with Mr. Cohen? 8 MR. COHEN: I'm not sure what 9 "privy to" means. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Before the last time that you were 12 deposed in this lawsuit and today, have you 13 met with Mr. Cohen? 14 MR. COHEN: You mean since the last 15 time he was deposed and today? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q When was that? 20 A Today. 21 Q How long did you meet? 22 A Briefly. 586 1 Q About how long? 2 A Enough time to say hi and get in a 3 cab. 4 Q And how long is that? 5 A Well, let's figure that out. Hi, 6 how are you doing? 7 MR. COHEN: Just answer the 8 question. 9 THE WITNESS: I assume a few 10 minutes. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q *Did you discuss this lawsuit with 13 Mr. Cohen on the way over? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 15 answer the question. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q How did you learn that Jane 19 Sherburne wanted to meet with you to discuss 20 the acquisition of FBI files by The White 21 House? 22 A I don't recall. 587 1 MR. COHEN: Wait one second here. 2 (Counsel conferred with witness) 3 MR. COHEN: I want to return to the 4 question you had asked before I interposed an 5 objection to. I assume that your point is 6 that since the cab driver was present that 7 that's not a confidential communication, so 8 you can go ahead and ask him and I withdraw 9 that objection to whether we discussed the 10 lawsuit on the cab ride on the way over. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Please respond. 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Well, this occurred just within the 15 hour, didn't it? 16 A Hour and a half. 17 Q So your memory's gone blank in an 18 hour and a half? 19 A No. I think I said I don't recall 20 talking about the lawsuit. I don't believe 21 that we did. 22 Q But you're not sure? 588 1 A I'm trying to think about it, 2 Mr. Klayman. I'll just take a couple 3 seconds. No, I don't believe we did. 4 Q Then why did you testify you 5 couldn't recall? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection the form of 7 the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I can't recall and I 9 don't believe we did. That's my answer. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q So all you ever said to Mr. Cohen 12 today was hello, let's go to Judicial Watch's 13 office? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 15 answer the question. It invades the 16 attorney- client privilege. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: He already testified 18 to that. 19 MR. COHEN: He testified to that. 20 You're asking him what else he said other 21 than hi, how are you, and I objected to your 22 effort to get into our conversations today in 589 1 advance of this deposition and I will stand 2 on that objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q *Are you saying you did not discuss 5 this lawsuit with Mr. Cohen today? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 7 answer the question. It's a privileged 8 conversation. Whether he -- 9 MR. KLAYMAN: It's general subject 10 matter. That's not subject to attorney- 11 client privilege. 12 MR. COHEN: I believe it is. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: That's just an 14 identification. That's the kind of thing you 15 put into a privilege log, an index. 16 MR. COHEN: I'm objecting to the 17 question, Mr. Klayman. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q At the time that you discussed the 21 acquisition of FBI files with Sherburne and 22 Paxton, what concrete evidence did you have 590 1 at that time that it was simply a mistake? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 3 answered. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. COHEN: You mean other than 6 what he's already testified to that specific 7 question? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't mess up 9 the question. Answer the question. 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 11 answered. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Please respond, Mr. Livingstone. 14 A I've answered the question. 15 MR. COHEN: You can scroll back 16 through here and search for the word 17 "concrete"? Could you read back the previous 18 question where Mr. Klayman used the word 19 "concrete" and this question? 20 (The reporter read the record as 21 requested.) 22 MR. COHEN: Let's move on. 591 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You're instructing 2 him not to answer? 3 MR. COHEN: I didn't instruct him 4 not to answer. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Do you wish to answer the question, 7 Mr. Livingstone? 8 MR. COHEN: He answered the 9 question, Mr. Klayman. Do you have a 10 question? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: It's pending. 12 MR. COHEN: What is the question? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: What she just read 14 back. 15 MR. COHEN: She didn't read 16 anything back. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Could you read the 18 question back? 19 (The reporter read the record as 20 requested.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Will you answer the question? 592 1 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 2 answered. 3 THE WITNESS: I believe I said, 4 Mr. Klayman, to a very similar question if 5 not the same question, that I don't have a 6 specific recollection of the events of some 7 three years ago, and I've stated that it was 8 a very brief conversation. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q These events gave rise to an 11 Independent Counsel investigation, correct, 12 Mr. Livingstone? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm 16 qualified to answer how the Independent 17 Counsel's investigation came about. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q These events gave rise to 20 congressional investigations, correct? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 593 1 THE WITNESS: I don't think I can 2 presume how Congress does its business. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q These events gave rise to this 5 lawsuit that you're here on today, correct, 6 Mr. Livingstone? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I certainly wouldn't 10 presume as to why this lawsuit would have 11 come about. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q *This whole matter has occupied a 14 great portion of your life for the last three 15 years, correct? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 17 answer the question. Move on. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Are you telling me that this was so 21 insignificant that you can't remember what 22 you based your statement that this was just a 594 1 mistake on? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I think that I would 5 prefer if it's possible for you to ask a 6 question without reading in characterizations 7 and political colloquy into your questions. 8 I'll try to answer them. But otherwise I 9 don't intend on answering any more of your 10 questions today. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q This was a significant event in 13 your life, correct, Mr. Livingstone? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 17 what it has to do with what we're here today. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Are you going to answer the 20 question? Was this a significant event in 21 your life? 22 A I am truly sorry for what happened. 595 1 MR. COHEN: Just answer the 2 question. 3 THE WITNESS: It's a combination of 4 errors, and I believe that based on that the 5 answer would be yes. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So because it was significant event 8 you would have remembered these things, 9 correct? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe 13 that that's a fair characterization. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q So what you're saying is this was 16 so insignificant that I have no memory about 17 it? 18 A You're badgering me now. I've 19 answered the question. If you want this 20 conversation to end, we can end it. 21 MR. COHEN: Don't answer the 22 question. Move on, Mr. Klayman. If you have 596 1 anything that is reasonably related follow-up 2 to his answer to the question that we're here 3 on, ask it. If, as Mr. Livingstone has aptly 4 observed, you're just here to badger him, 5 we're going to be done. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did Ms. Sherburne tell you why she 8 was meeting with you? 9 A I believe I stated but I'll state 10 it again. Ms. Sherburne wanted to discuss 11 how this might have come to be about. 12 Q Did she tell you why she, Jane 13 Sherburne, was in charge to discuss this? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you know why Ms. Paxton was 16 there discussing it? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you ever ask them? 19 A No. 20 Q So you were just going to give 21 information out to anybody that asked you the 22 question? 597 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What were your criteria for 6 discussing this? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: They're members of 10 counsel's staff who I knew to be in a 11 superior position to me. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You knew that they worked with you 14 on this matter, correct? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. What do you mean, "this 17 matter"? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: The whole issue of 19 reviewing FBI files. 20 MR. COHEN: Objection. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 22 form. Vague. 598 1 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q This was a duty and responsibility 4 charged to The White House Counsel's Office, 5 correct? 6 MR. COHEN: Mr. Klayman, I'm 7 inclined to object and instruct the witness 8 not to answer this question. If you have 9 some proffer you want to make as to how this 10 is a reasonably related follow-up question, 11 why don't you make it? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I've laid the 13 foundation. Please answer. 14 MR. COHEN: Not to my satisfaction, 15 you haven't. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Please answer. 17 MR. COHEN: What's the pending 18 question? 19 (The reporter read the record as 20 requested.) 21 MS. SHAPIRO: I join the objection 22 to the form. 599 1 THE WITNESS: I'm quite certain 2 that neither Ms. Paxton or Ms. Sherburne ever 3 reviewed FBI files or, to be clear again, 4 your mischaracterization, FBI summary reports 5 with me at all at any time. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q *But this was a function assigned 8 to The White House Counsel's Office to review 9 the FBI summary reports, correct? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 11 answer the question. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Before you spoke with Ms. Sherburne 15 and Ms. Paxton, did you consult with Anthony 16 Marceca or anybody else? 17 MR. COHEN: The previous question's 18 also been asked and answered on numerous 19 occasions in Mr. Livingstone's prior 20 deposition and I don't think you have license 21 to go over ground that you had perfect 22 opportunity to cover and did cover in his 600 1 prior deposition. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Please answer the 3 question. 4 MR. COHEN: Can you read back the 5 last question? 6 (The reporter read the record as 7 requested.) 8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. To 9 be specific, I believe that I talked to my 10 staff and people that I worked with, but I 11 don't recall specifically who. I am sure 12 that I did talk to my staff. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you talk to Mari Anderson? 15 A I don't recall who specifically on 16 my staff I talked to, but I remember talking 17 to some of my staff. 18 Q When you discussed this matter with 19 Sherburne and Paxton that this was just a 20 mistake, did you discuss the issue of the 21 Billy Dale file at the same time? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 601 1 of the question. It's vague and 2 mischaracterizes the prior testimony. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't recollect 4 Mr. Dale's name coming up at all. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you discuss the White House 7 getting files of the White House Travel 8 Office? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. COHEN: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 12 recollection of that. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Sherburne 15 during these meetings how you came to be 16 employed at The White House? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Paxton how 21 you came to be employed at The White House? 22 A I don't believe so. 602 1 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Sherburne 2 or Ms. Paxton who authorized the obtaining of 3 Billy Dale's FBI summary materials? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 5 answered. 6 THE WITNESS: I have answered that 7 question, but, again, I don't believe that we 8 discussed Mr. Dale. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Sherburne 11 or Ms. Paxton anything related to Anthony 12 Marceca? 13 A I don't -- 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 17 recollection of talking about any individuals 18 or any other subjects other than the issue of 19 how we got the files. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Sherburne 22 or Ms. Paxton any problems in Anthony 603 1 Marceca's background during those meetings? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I've answered the 5 question and I'm not going to answer the 6 question again. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you discuss with Ms. Sherburne 9 or Ms. Paxton during those meetings Anthony 10 Marceca's duties and responsibilities? 11 A I've answered the question. 12 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 13 answered. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q When you met with Ms. Sherburne and 16 Ms. Paxton in these meetings did they tell 17 you that they had information that the 18 obtaining of the FBI file was just an 19 innocent bureaucratic snafu? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 21 answered. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I 604 1 have any recollection of that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q What do you mean by, "I don't 4 believe I have any recollection"? 5 A I don't have any recollection of 6 it, Mr. Klayman. 7 Q When you met with Ms. Sherburne or 8 Ms. Paxton, did they tell you that the 9 President doesn't think that this is an 10 innocent bureaucratic snafu or mistake? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: The President never 14 came up in the course of the conversation 15 whatsoever in any form or fashion. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q When you met with Ms. Sherburne and 18 Ms. Paxton, did they tell you that 19 Mrs. Clinton had said before this is over I'm 20 going to be responsible for this, too? 21 A Absolutely not. Mrs. Clinton's 22 name never came up in the conversation with 605 1 Ms. Sherburne and I don't believe I've ever 2 had a conversation with Ms. Sherburne or 3 Ms. Paxton about Mrs. Clinton or the 4 President, period. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Since the date of your last 7 deposition session, have you talked to 8 Ms. Sherburne? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you talked to Ms. Paxton? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you talked to anyone about 13 this lawsuit other than your counsel? 14 A No. 15 Q You hesitated. Who did you talk 16 with? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MR. COHEN: That's badgering, 20 Mr. Klayman. You asked a broad-based 21 question, whether he had talked with anyone. 22 He said no. 606 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to amend 2 your -- 3 MR. COHEN: The implication that 4 because he didn't answer immediately your 5 question that he is somehow withholding 6 evidence from you is offensive, Mr. Klayman. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Are you saying you didn't discuss 9 this lawsuit, Alexander v. FBI, with anyone 10 after the date of your last deposition 11 session other than your counsel? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 13 answered. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to get a 15 clarification on this. 16 MR. COHEN: It was a very clear 17 question and a very clear answer. Objection. 18 Asked and answered. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Please respond. 21 A I don't have any recollection of 22 talking to anybody about the matters of this 607 1 lawsuit since my last deposition. 2 Q *Since your last deposition have 3 you talked about anything regarding the FBI 4 file controversy, whether it's this lawsuit 5 or some other aspect of the whole 6 controversy? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 8 answered. Beyond the scope of what we're 9 here to discuss today. Don't answer it. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q During these meetings with 13 Ms. Sherburne and Ms. Paxton, were any 14 documents discussed during those meetings? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 19 recollection talking about documents other 20 than the summary reports that we received and 21 how we came about to have them in our 22 possession. 608 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q I take it that during these 3 meetings with Ms. Paxton and Ms. Sherburne 4 that Ms. Paxton and Ms. Sherburne took notes 5 of what you were telling them? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you have any FBI summary 12 reports at that meeting? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you have any documents at that 15 meeting? 16 A I don't believe so. 17 Q You yourself had a notepad, 18 correct? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 20 of the question. What's the basis of your 21 suggestion that he had a notepad with him, 22 Mr. Klayman? 609 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I think an 2 experienced lawyer like yourself understands. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Please answer. 5 MR. COHEN: I appreciate the 6 compliment I'm an experienced lawyer. I 7 don't understand the question. Why don't you 8 tell me what the basis of it is? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Please answer. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you have a notepad there? 16 A I don't remember. 17 Q You did take notes from time to 18 time when you worked at The White House, 19 correct? 20 A I did take notes from time to time 21 when I worked at The White House. 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 610 1 of the question. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Are there any notes of these 4 meetings that are now in the possession of 5 your counsel? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. I assume you're asking any 8 notes of Mr. Livingstone in counsel's 9 possession; is that your question? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: About this particular 11 meeting, meetings. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 13 knowledge of that. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You don't know one way or the 16 other? 17 A I don't believe so. 18 Q But you're not sure? 19 A I don't believe I took any notes of 20 the meeting, so, therefore, I'm pretty sure 21 that there wouldn't be any notes. 22 Q Do Mr. Cohen and his colleagues 611 1 have copies of other notes that you took at 2 The White House? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 THE WITNESS: I know through 6 various responses to subpoenas that we 7 provided documents that were responsive to 8 subpoenas, so I believe they have materials 9 that I may have generated. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Including notes? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know 15 specifically if there are notes among those. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q They may be notes? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. Mr. Klayman, you've asked 20 this question now about five or six times. 21 He's told you he didn't take any notes of 22 this meeting to the best of his recollection. 612 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Please respond. 3 A I don't know. I don't believe so. 4 Q But you did turn over some notes to 5 your counsel? 6 A I didn't say that, no. I said that 7 I turned over information responsive to a 8 subpoena request, and I believe that most of 9 those -- information did not involve notes. 10 In fact, I don't know of any notes. I think 11 they were in the form of memoranda or similar 12 types of communications. 13 Q *And some of the memoranda were 14 stored on computer disk? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection to the 16 question. Don't answer. It's beyond the 17 scope of this question and reasonably related 18 follow up. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q *Are you saying that you didn't 22 turn over computer disks to your counsel? 613 1 MR. COHEN: Mr. Klayman, this is a 2 well-trodden path to nowhere. I object to 3 the form of the question. I object. It's 4 beyond the scope of the question that we are 5 here to answer today and reasonably related 6 follow-up. It's been asked, it's been 7 answered on numerous occasions, and I'm going 8 to instruct the witness not to answer it 9 today. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q During the meetings with Sherburne 13 and Paxton, Sherburne told you that they had 14 Dale's file? 15 (Witness conferred with counsel) 16 THE WITNESS: I'd like to respond 17 to your question, if you wouldn't mind, 18 ma'am, reading the question about the 19 computer disks, the last question? 20 (The reporter read the record as 21 requested.) 22 THE WITNESS: To be clear, I don't 614 1 believe that I had any computer disks to turn 2 over to counsel. I don't want it -- again, 3 you have a tendency to read testimony into 4 the record, and for the record I don't 5 believe that I had computer disks to turn 6 over. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You're saying you never put things 9 on computer disk when you worked in The White 10 House? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm saying I don't 14 believe I ever put anything on a computer 15 disk when I worked at The White House. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You had Mari Anderson do it for 18 you, correct? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q She typed out your correspondence 615 1 and other types of documentation, correct? 2 A I think in the normal course of 3 business she was my assistant, my staff 4 assistant, and I believe that she did have a 5 practice of storing memoranda and other 6 relevant materials on disk. 7 Q Memoranda and other relevant 8 materials she had generated for you, correct? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: Actually, for the 12 office. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Which included you, correct? 15 A Which included me, yes, correct. 16 Q And when you left The White House 17 you took some of those computer disks, didn't 18 you? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 20 answered. 21 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not, not 22 one for any issue, for any reason. 616 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did others take those computer 3 disks? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I couldn't possibly 7 answer that question, Mr. Klayman, but for 8 the record I have no knowledge of that 9 handing. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know whether the Independent 12 Counsel or Congress has computer disks 13 containing materials that were typed out for 14 you by Ms. Anderson when you worked at The 15 White House? 16 A I don't know what they have. 17 Q Have you learned that? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 19 answered. You asked, do you know? He said 20 he doesn't have any knowledge. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you learned that from some 617 1 source, that they have computer disks that 2 contain documents which you generated at The 3 White House? 4 MR. COHEN: Is that a different 5 question than the previous one? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, slightly 7 different. 8 MR. COHEN: In what way? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Please answer. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 12 answered. 13 THE WITNESS: I believe I said that 14 I don't have any knowledge of that. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q *During the meetings with Sherburne 17 and Paxton did they state that they had 18 Dale's FBI file materials? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 20 answered. 21 THE WITNESS: I've answered that 22 question at least five times in several 618 1 different ways that I would think even you 2 would be able to understand and I'm not going 3 to answer it again. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q During those meetings with 7 Ms. Paxton and Ms. Sherburne, did you give 8 them a list of FBI summary materials? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 10 answered. You asked him if he brought 11 documents to this meeting. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking the 13 question a slightly different way. Maybe it 14 will jog his recollection. 15 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 16 answered. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall 18 bringing documents, Mr. Klayman, to that 19 meeting. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Given the fact that you told 22 Sherburne and Paxton that the acquisition of 619 1 the FBI files by The White House was a 2 mistake, do you know why Sherburne later told 3 the President, as reflected in Woodward's 4 book Shadow, that she didn't have any idea 5 how those files were acquired? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you know how she came up with 11 that? 12 MR. COHEN: It mischaracterizes 13 testimony and asks the witness -- 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection to 15 form. 16 THE WITNESS: I couldn't possibly 17 speak for Ms. Sherburne or what's at the very 18 best been reported that Ms. Sherburne said. 19 That's all I have to say. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Ms. Sherburne asked to speak with 22 you about the Billy Dale file, correct? 620 1 MR. COHEN: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You're saying that never happened? 5 A I'm saying I don't recall. I do 6 not recall. 7 Q *It was the turning over of the 8 Billy Dale file for the Clinger committee in 9 Congress which really caused this whole FBI 10 Filegate controversy, correct? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 12 answer. It's beyond the scope. Don't answer 13 it. Move on, Mr. Klayman. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 15 Q That was a very big issue, wasn't 16 it, Mr. Livingstone? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. It's vague. 18 It's ambiguous. 19 Well, if you can reformulate the 20 question in a way I can understand it, I'll 21 then be able to instruct my client whether to 22 answer it. 621 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q *It was turning over Dale's FBI 3 background summary to Congress which really 4 caused the explosion which started this FBI 5 Filegate controversy, correct? 6 MR. COHEN: I thought you were 7 asking that. Objection. Don't answer. It's 8 beyond the scope. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Are you saying you can't remember 12 ever discussing the Billy Dale FBI summary 13 material with Ms. Sherburne? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I think I 17 answered your specific question was the fact 18 that Ms. Sherburne called me. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever discuss the FBI 21 materials of Billy Dale with Ms. Sherburne? 22 A Well, if your question is did I 622 1 discuss why we had Mr. Dale's file, then I 2 can answer that question. We did not discuss 3 the content of his file. I don't understand 4 the question. Which one is it? 5 Q During these meetings with 6 Ms. Sherburne and Ms. Paxton, did you discuss 7 why The White House had Billy Dale's file? 8 A I believe that's correct. 9 Q And what did you say? 10 A I believe that's what generated our 11 internal investigation, to find out how that 12 happened. 13 Q And what did you say to Sherburne 14 and Paxton? How did you explain that? 15 A In a subsequent meeting I believe 16 that we came across an outdated list that led 17 me to believe that that could have been the 18 reason why we had those files -- excuse me, 19 those summary reports. 20 Q But you never confirmed that that 21 was the reason why The White House had Billy 22 Dale's FBI file materials? 623 1 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 2 answered. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Please answer. 5 A I believe I departed The White 6 House very soon after that. 7 Q So you never knew for sure? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 9 answered several times now. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Correct? 12 A To this date, I still believe that 13 that's exactly what happened. 14 Q But you never knew for sure, 15 correct? 16 MR. COHEN: What do you mean by 17 "for sure," Mr. Klayman? 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You never had any proof that that's 20 exactly what happened? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 22 answered. 624 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I 2 know anything in life in general that's for 3 sure, Mr. Klayman, but to the best of my 4 ability, I believe that that's what happened. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q *Did you ever review Billy Dale's 7 FBI file material? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. Don't 9 answer. It's beyond the scope. It's also 10 asked and answered. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Have you ever discussed with Ken 14 Starr's office, the office of independent 15 counsel, the questions that I've asked you 16 today? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. That's an 18 impossible question to answer since we've 19 been here for 55 minutes. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did the independent Counsel's 22 Office ever ask you specifically what you 625 1 discussed with Ms. Sherburne and Ms. Paxton 2 when you met with them and told them that you 3 thought this was just a mistake? 4 A I don't recall. 5 Q They never discussed these things 6 with you, did they? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 8 of the question. Vague. It's a yes-or-no 9 question. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 11 don't recall. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further 13 questions at this time. 14 (Whereupon, at 11:54 a.m., the 15 deposition of DAVID CRAIG 16 LIVINGSTONE was adjourned.) 17 * * * * * 18 19 20 21 22