UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ---------------------------------x CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER et al., : : Plaintiffs, : : : v. : No. 96-2123-RCL : FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION : et al., : : Defendants. : ---------------------------------x Washington, D.C. Wednesday, June 9 1999 Deposition of ANTHONY B. MARCECA a witness, called for further examination by counsel for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and agreement of counsel, continuing at approximately 10:14 a.m. at the offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street S.W., Washington, D.C., before Monica A. Voorhees of Beta Reporting & Video, notary public in and for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of the respective parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street S.W. 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of 7 Investigation and the Executive Office of the President: 8 ELIZABETH SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 9 JAMES GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 10 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 11 901 E Street N.W., Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 12 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 14 ALLISON C. GILES, ESQUIRE 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 16 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. 17 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 18 19 On behalf of The White House: 20 MICHELLE PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Associate Counsel to the President 21 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 22 (202) 456-5079 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Nussbaum: 3 YOCHEVED COHEN, ESQUIRE Wachtel, Lipton, Rosen & Katz 4 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 5 (212) 403-1000 6 On behalf of Deponent: 7 ROBERT M. WEINBERG, ESQUIRE 8 Bredhoff & Kaiser 1000 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. 9 Washington, D.C. (202) 833-9340 10 ROBERT F. MUSE, ESQUIRE 11 DANIEL J. CHEPAITIS, ESQUIRE Stein, Mitchell & Mezines 12 1100 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20036 13 (202) 737-7777 14 15 16 17 * * * * * 18 19 20 21 22 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5 4 MARCERCA DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 5 No. 1 - Fifth Amendment Statement 7 6 No. 2 - Memorandum Regarding 75 Fifth Amendment Issues 7 No. 3 - Subpoena Duces Tecum 120 8 No. 4 - WAVES Logs 139 9 No. 5 - Declaration 219 10 No. 6 - Requisition Forms 324 11 No. 7 - Chart, FBI Files Ordered, 335 12 Attachment 13 No. 8 - Website, Archives Article 337 14 No. 9 - Memorandum, Beck to Podesta 339 15 No. 10 - Response to Request #3 351 16 No. 11 - Hearing Excerpt 383 17 No. 12 - Tribune Article 408 18 No. 13 - Document, Marceca File 414 19 No. 14 - Zenith Laptop File 418 20 No. 15 - Handwritten Notes 427 21 No. 16 - 1993 Calendar 432 22 No. 17 - 1994 Calendar 432 * * * * * 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 ANTHONY B. MARCECA 4 was called as a witness and, having been 5 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 6 as follows: 7 MR. GILLIGAN: What time is it? 8 COURT REPORTER: 10:14. 9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Would you please state your name? 12 A Anthony B. Marceca. 13 Q When were you born, Mr. Marceca? 14 A June 8, 1942. 15 Q Where were you born? 16 A In Meadville, Pennsylvania. 17 Q Where did you go to high school? 18 A St. Agatha High School. 19 Q How's that spelled? 20 A A-G-A-T-H-A. 21 Q When did you graduate? 22 A 1961. 6 1 Q What do you have in your hand? 2 A A piece of paper. 3 Q Does it say anything on it? 4 A Yes, it does. 5 Q What does it say? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'll be glad to show 7 you this. We, as you know, we have notified 8 you directly and in pleadings for months that 9 Mr. Marceca would take the Fifth Amendment 10 and, for his comfort as to words he wanted to 11 use to do that when the questions as to the 12 substance of this case came, this is a 13 formulation which he will be using. I'm 14 happy to show it to you. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we mark that as 16 an exhibit? I was just concerned that it 17 might have notes on it that would bear on his 18 testimony. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Well it will bear on 20 his testimony. You'll hear these words over 21 and over again, so I don't think you'll have 22 any problem having the words in the record. 7 1 If you want to see it -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's mark it as an 3 exhibit, and then he can read from it. 4 MR. MUSE: Well, it's not time to 5 read it. Why don't you wait a while. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well he's got a 7 document in his hand. It's relevant to this 8 case. 9 If we could move it along, let's 10 just mark it as Exhibit 1. 11 I ask that one lawyer make 12 objections; the court has asked that be the 13 way we proceed. 14 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 15 No. 1 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 MR. WEINBERG: It may expedite 18 matters, since you've marked it as an 19 exhibit, since when the time comes for him to 20 invoke his right, he just refers to 21 Exhibit 1. That might make this go quickly. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there may be a 8 1 way that we could work out an abbreviation, 2 once he invokes it. However, there are 3 issues, legal issues, in terms of what needs 4 to be set forth to invoke the privilege. 5 We'll face that when he invokes the 6 privilege. But for the time being, let me 7 just finish with these questions. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You graduated in 1961 and what, if 10 anything, did you do at that time, 11 professionally? 12 A In the year of 1961? 13 Q Correct. 14 A I went in the Air Force. 15 Q You enlisted? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q What rank did you have when you got 18 in to the Air Force? 19 A I was a basic airman. 20 Q How long did you stay in the Air 21 Force? 22 A Four years. 9 1 Q Did your rank change at any time 2 during those four years? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So you left in 1965? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Did you have an honorable or a 7 dishonorable discharge? 8 A I had an honorable discharge with 9 decorations. 10 Q What kind of decorations did you 11 have? 12 A I had six various decorations. 13 Some of them were Presidential unit 14 citations, I don't recall all of those. They 15 are in my record. 16 Q Tell us what you recall. 17 A Well I recall that I got a 18 Presidential unit citation and I got a number 19 of meritorious service accommodations. 20 Q What happened in 1965? 21 A I don't understand. 22 Q Well you left the Air Force, what 10 1 did you do with yourself professionally 2 speaking? 3 A I returned to my, to Meadville and 4 I got a job on the railroad. 5 Q What railroad was that? 6 A Erie Lackawana. 7 Q What was your job? 8 A I was a fireman. 9 Q How long did you remain in that 10 position? 11 A I believe until 19, I believe 1968. 12 I'm not sure about that. I think I did. I 13 think I resigned in 1968. 14 Q Was your job during that duration 15 always as a fireman? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Who was your immediate supervisor 18 on the Erie Lackawana? 19 A I really can't recall. 20 Q Do you remember anybody you worked 21 with? 22 A I had -- oh, I had an engineer 11 1 who's name was Louie Wright that I worked 2 with a lot. 3 Q Do you know where he is today? 4 A I don't know if he's living or 5 dead. 6 Q Still in Meadville? 7 A If he's alive, he's there, yeah. I 8 don't, I really don't know. 9 Q So you stayed until 1968 as a 10 fireman, correct? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q What did you do at that time, 13 professionally speaking? 14 A Well, I started at the University 15 of Pittsburgh in July of '67 and I was a 16 full-time student at the University of 17 Pittsburgh and I worked part time on the 18 railroad during '67, I believe, I'm not sure 19 about the date on that, but I think I 20 resigned in '68 when I moved to Pittsburgh. 21 Q What did you study at the 22 University of Pittsburgh? 12 1 A It was, I got a Bachelor's of Arts 2 Degree, BA. 3 Q How long did it take you to get 4 that? 5 A I graduated in '70. I got it in 6 three years. 7 Q Did you study anything at the 8 University of Pittsburgh about security 9 matters? 10 A I studied geology, history and just 11 general -- political science was my major. 12 Q My specific question, did you have 13 any courses on security; in other words, 14 doing background investigations of people? 15 A Oh, no. 16 Q What happened in 1970? 17 A I graduated. 18 Q During college, did you have any 19 employment? 20 A Yes, I worked driving an ambulance 21 and cutting meat at a market and I don't 22 know, I don't recall at the moment anything 13 1 else I did, but I think I did a few things. 2 Q Who did you drive an ambulance for? 3 A For an ambulance company called 4 Zepfel in Pittsburgh. 5 Q Can you name some of the people you 6 worked with there? 7 A Well Denny Zeckinger was the owner. 8 Q How's that spelled? 9 A I would only be guessing, I really 10 don't, I can't tell you. 11 Q Who else did you work with? 12 A I really can't recall. He had a 13 brother which I don't remember his name, but 14 I know the place was owned by a Mrs. Brown. 15 That's all I recall. 16 Q Is that business still alive in 17 Pittsburgh? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q You said you worked as a meat 20 cutter? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who did you work for? 14 1 A I worked at the, at a place called 2 the New Diamond Market down on Market Square. 3 Q What were some of the peoples' 4 names who you worked with? 5 A I, you know, I don't recall that. 6 I don't recall who the -- I worked for 7 obviously the owner. I don't know who that 8 was. I don't recall that at all. 9 Q Up to 1970, in any of your walks of 10 life, had anyone ever accused you of theft 11 before? 12 A Not that I know of. 13 Q Had anyone accused you of any 14 wrongdoing of any kind? 15 A Not that I recall, no. 16 Q Were there any issues at University 17 of Pittsburgh, ethical issues, anything like 18 that? 19 A Not that I know of. 20 Q So in 1970, what did you do 21 professionally? 22 A I started teaching in the 15 1 Pittsburgh school district as a substitute 2 teacher. 3 Q What district was that? 4 A Pittsburgh. 5 Q Did you have a title? 6 A Teacher. 7 Q How long did you stay on that job? 8 A Until January of '71, I believe. 9 Q What happened then? 10 A I moved to Texas. 11 Q Why did you move to Texas? 12 A Because I took a job with Senator 13 Muskey's staff. 14 Q Who were some of the people that 15 you worked with in that school district? 16 A I don't recall. I really don't 17 recall. 18 Q How did you get the job with 19 Senator Muskey's staff? 20 A I applied and got, well I sent out 21 resumes and got accepted. 22 Q What job did you apply for? 16 1 A Campaign manager. 2 Q What about your prior background 3 qualified you for the job of campaign 4 manager? 5 A Well, in 1968 I managed a State 6 Senate campaign of one of my professors and 7 that was some political experience that I had 8 had. 9 Q Who was that? 10 A Oh, Dr. Zavacky. 11 Q This was at the school district? 12 A No, he was a professor at the 13 University of Pittsburgh. 14 Q Who did you work with on that 15 campaign besides Dr. Zavacky? 16 A It was a guy at one of my, the only 17 name I can recall was a person that handled 18 the media was a guy by the name of Ken 19 Starr -- or, yeah, I think his name was. 20 Q Ken Starr, not the Ken Starr, was 21 it? 22 A The Ken Starr, it was at that time. 17 1 Q Right. Is this the same Ken Starr 2 that has been independent counsel for the 3 last many years in Washington, D.C? 4 A Well I don't recognize you, so. 5 Q I'm not Mr. Starr. 6 A Been a long time, I'm sorry. 7 Excuse me, everybody. 8 Q You realize I'm not Ken Starr? 9 A There was a confusion there, okay, 10 I'm sorry. 11 Q You realize I'm not Ken Starr? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Who am I? You can take the Fifth 14 if you'd like. 15 A I apologize. You're Mr. Klayman. 16 I apologize for that. 17 Q Thank you. That's all right. Do 18 we look alike? 19 A I never met him, so, I'm sorry. 20 Q Who else did you work with on that 21 campaign? 22 A I really can't recall any other, 18 1 any other names at that time. 2 Q So, in 1971 you moved to Texas, I 3 take it you got the job with Senator Muskey? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q As campaign manager? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q What were your duties and 8 responsibilities as campaign manager? 9 A I organized the State, mainly 10 organized the elected party officials and the 11 people that were friendly to the candidate. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Could I have your 13 indulgence for one second, please. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q By the way, did you win that '68 16 campaign? 17 A No. 18 Q Now you say you organized the 19 State, organized the elected party officials. 20 You had never lived in Texas 21 before, correct? 22 A No. 19 1 Q How is it without experience in 2 Texas you were able to get a job as campaign 3 manager for Senator Muskey in Texas? 4 A Obviously my resume carried it. 5 Q What other duties and 6 responsibilities did you have on the 7 campaign? 8 A I, you know, handled some fund 9 raising, that I recall, and that's about the 10 extent of it. 11 Q Were you asked to do opposition 12 research on opposing candidates? 13 MS. GILES: Objection, form. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q But the campaign did do opposition 17 research on the candidate that Senator Muskey 18 was opposing, correct? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 20 form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 20 1 MR. WEINBERG: If you know. 2 THE WITNESS: Not at my level. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I just ask, this may 4 have been inadvertent, I hope it doesn't 5 happen again, to say if you know is a way of 6 telling the witness not to know, so please 7 don't do that. It's occurred throughout this 8 litigation. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Who was Senator Muskey running 11 against at the time? 12 A It was a primary and he dropped 13 out. He dropped out at the convention. 14 Q This was a primary for President? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Who was he running against in the 17 primary? 18 A I think Senator Humphrey was 19 running, or maybe he was Vice President, I 20 believe, at the time. MacGovern was running, 21 also, '72. 22 Q Now who did you work with in Texas 21 1 on this campaign? 2 A I worked out of a law firm. 3 Q What law firm was that? 4 A It was Curtis, Crowder and Mattox. 5 Q How's that spelled? 6 A C-u-r-t-i-s, C-r-o-w-d-e-r, and 7 Mattox, M-a-t-t-o-x. 8 Q Who did you work with in the law 9 firm, if anyone, on the campaign? 10 A I didn't. I had an office there. 11 I worked out of that office and then I opened 12 up headquarters around the State. 13 Q Is that office still in existence? 14 A The lawyers are still in existence, 15 but the office is not, no. That office is 16 not. The lawyers are, but the office isn't. 17 Q Where are the lawyers located 18 today? 19 A Well, Crowder is in Dallas. I 20 don't know where Curtis is and Mattox is in 21 Austin. 22 Q I take it people in this law office 22 1 also worked on the campaign, either in a 2 volunteer capacity or through employment? 3 A No, sir, they did not. 4 Q They did observe, however, what you 5 and your staff were doing, obviously? 6 A We, they used an office and -- or 7 we used an office. That's the extent of it. 8 Q Who, if anyone, did you work with 9 from Senator Muskey's office in Washington, 10 D.C., or throughout the United States? 11 A There was an individual I worked 12 with in Washington, it was John Rigby with 13 Arnold and Porter. I don't know if he's 14 still there. I think he's still there, I'm 15 not sure. 16 Q Who else? 17 A That's, that was my contact, Mr. -- 18 Q There were other people around the 19 country, however, that you also worked with, 20 correct? 21 A Yeah, but I haven't a clue who they 22 were. 23 1 Q Do you know where Mr. Rigby is 2 today? 3 A I think he's still at Arnold and 4 Porter, I'm not sure. But I know that he was 5 with them at that time. 6 Q Now you are aware that the Muskey 7 campaign, during the primary, did research on 8 the political positions of other candidates, 9 correct? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 11 form. 12 MS. GILES: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Part of your duties and 16 responsibilities as campaign manager in Texas 17 was to profit from that research, correct? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 19 form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q To use the research? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 24 1 form. 2 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I answered that 4 question, sir, I said that was not at my 5 level. The research was not done at my 6 level. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Whose level was it done at? 9 A It was done at the headquarters 10 level up in Washington but not at my level. 11 Q Who did it at the headquarters 12 level in Washington? 13 A I don't know, sir. 14 Q You are aware that the Muskey 15 campaign did research into aspects of the 16 lives of opposition candidates? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 18 form. 19 MS. GILES: Join. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A I am not aware of that, sir. 25 1 That's an assumption on your part. I'm not 2 aware of any opposition research at my level. 3 I had no visibility to that. 4 Q How long did you stay working on 5 that campaign? 6 A I was with them until July of '72, 7 the convention. 8 Q What happened in July of '72? 9 A He actually dropped out, but the 10 organization stayed functioning until the 11 convention. At the convention he was 12 officially done and MacGovern won the 13 nomination. 14 Q Why did you want a job as campaign 15 manager? 16 A I felt that I was competent in 17 doing that kind of work. 18 Q What led you to believe that? 19 A I had some educational courses at 20 Pitt that I think qualified me for that. 21 Q What were they? 22 A Various political science classes. 26 1 Q You have a particular interest in 2 politics, I take it? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q That's something which has always 5 interested you since college? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 7 form. 8 THE WITNESS: Actually it's earlier 9 than that, sir. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How early did it start? 12 A As early as I can recall. My 13 parents told me that I needed to know about 14 Government and I needed to know about how 15 Government works and so my interest in 16 politics was as far back as I can remember. 17 Q So it was instilled in you by your 18 parents? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q You had your own interest in it? 21 A Well, yes, sir. 22 Q From your early days as a child, 27 1 you wanted to learn everything about how 2 campaigns worked, correct? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 4 form. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I was 6 interested in Government. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You were fascinated by it? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 10 form. 11 THE WITNESS: By Government, sir. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Right, but you wanted to learn how 14 politicians do their campaigns, correct? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 16 form. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q That's why you worked on the 20 campaign back in 1968 and was the campaign 21 manager for Dr. Zavacky, correct? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 28 1 form. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q That's why you wanted to work on 5 the Muskey campaign, correct? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 7 form. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I am dealing with an 10 adverse witness, I'm allowed to ask leading 11 questions. 12 Are you disputing that? 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm allowed to put 14 my objections on the record and I'm doing 15 that. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well you're certainly 17 allowed to put legitimate objections on the 18 record, but if it's just to break up the flow 19 of the deposition, that wouldn't be 20 legitimate. 21 I would like to know the basis of 22 your objection. 29 1 MR. WEINBERG: You ask your 2 questions and if I think an objection is 3 appropriate, I'll make them. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm trying to get a 5 proffer for the court to understand what was 6 wrong with that last question. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I objected as to the 8 form of the question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, well I'll 10 just state for the record that I view these 11 objections as frivolous and designed simply 12 to break the flow of the deposition and I'm 13 asking you as a matter of professional 14 courtesy to tell me why I'm wrong. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I've given you my 16 answer. You're taking up your own time now. 17 Why don't you ask your questions. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I'm going to 19 register an objection for the record. I'm 20 trying as a matter of professional courtesy, 21 sir, to give you an opportunity to tell me 22 what is wrong with my question. 30 1 If you'd like your client to leave 2 the room, that would be fine, otherwise, I 3 view it as a way to simply draw out this 4 proceeding and as a way to tell the client in 5 particular instances when he should be more 6 attentive. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm doing everything 8 I can not to interrupt the flow of your 9 questioning. If you ask a question that I 10 think is improper as to form, I'm going to 11 object, and if you have a problem with that, 12 we'll have to deal with that at some other 13 point. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm giving you an 15 opportunity to, as a matter of professional 16 courtesy, your client can leave the room for 17 a few minutes, to tell me what is wrong with 18 the form of the question. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't see any 20 profit in engaging in a debate with you. 21 You're a lawyer. You know what form is 22 proper and what form isn't. 31 1 I'm objecting to the form of the 2 question. If you want to keep asking it in 3 those forms, go ahead. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well this is why I 5 believe my question and I'm convinced my 6 question is proper as to form, so I don't 7 understand why it's necessary to take up time 8 in this deposition and disrupt the deposition 9 if you're not willing to tell me what was 10 wrong with it. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think this 12 discussion has gone on long enough. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll certify this. 14 Just let the record reflect that to the 15 extent this deposition takes more time than 16 necessary, that we'll ask the court, and we 17 have not been able to complete what we wanted 18 to complete, for more time and other 19 appropriate relief. 20 Can you read back the last 21 question? 22 (The reporter read the record as 32 1 requested.) 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In the course of working on this 4 earlier campaign for Dr. Zavacky and for 5 Edmund Muskey, you tried to learn as much as 6 you could about how campaigns operate, 7 correct? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 9 form. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You tried to learn not just issues 13 of fund raising and organization, but you 14 wanted to learn how candidates research other 15 candidates? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection -- 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q To be able to compete with them, 19 right? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 21 form. 22 THE WITNESS: I have to answer no 33 1 to that? That was not in my purview at that 2 time, sir. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q So you weren't interested in that? 5 A That was not in my purview. 6 Q I didn't ask you whether it was in 7 your purview, I asked whether you tried to 8 learn how this was done given your interest 9 in politics and campaigns? 10 A The answer to your question is no. 11 Q Why weren't you interested in that? 12 A The opposition research was not an 13 area that I was involved in at that time. 14 Q Now, what happened when Muskey shut 15 down his campaign, what, if anything, did you 16 do with regard to that particular 17 Presidential race, I take it that was 18 in 1968? 19 A Muskey was in '72. 20 Q '72, okay. What, if anything, did 21 you do? 22 A Muskey quit during New Hampshire, 34 1 which was in March, he quit active 2 campaigning and I went to work for Jim Mattox 3 on Jim Mattox campaign who was running for a 4 House seat in Texas. 5 Q Who else worked on that campaign 6 with you? 7 A Well Jim's sister and Jim's 8 brother. 9 Q What's Jim's sister's name? 10 A I don't recall at the moment. I 11 really don't and I don't recall his brother's 12 name. 13 Q What were your duties and 14 responsibilities on that campaign? 15 A I acted as his campaign manager. 16 Q What were your specific duties and 17 responsibilities? 18 A I, my main duty was to get out the 19 vote. 20 Q As part of your duties and 21 responsibilities, you did research on the 22 opposing candidate, correct? 35 1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to -- 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You, meaning the campaign. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 5 form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't feel right 7 about you calling me an adversarial person, 8 number one. 9 Number two, I believe the confusion 10 here is that the opposition research that 11 you're speaking of never really came into 12 vogue until much later on, years later. It 13 was not something that was done at that time. 14 I hope that explains to you, in 15 other words, that questioning is not going to 16 gain any ground here, sir, because it wasn't 17 done at that time. It's nothing that I was 18 involved in and it was nothing that I heard 19 of at that time. 20 It might have gone on, it might 21 have gone on in Washington, but it did not go 22 on at my level and I never engaged in that 36 1 area, sir, in any time in my entire career 2 and I hope that lays that question to rest. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What do you understand opposition 5 research to be, you say it later came in to 6 vogue, what specifically later came in to 7 vogue, what do you understand that opposition 8 research to be when it came in to vogue? 9 A I understood it to, I understand it 10 to mean digging up the information on your 11 candidate's weaknesses. 12 Q Where do you understand it came in 13 to vogue, where was it first used? 14 A I first observed it in the '70s, I 15 first learned of it when I learned of 16 telephone, telephoning voters in putting out 17 misinformation. 18 Q Where did you learn of that? 19 A I believe I learned that on the, I 20 think that was the Humphrey campaign. 21 Q Did you work on the Humphrey 22 campaign? 37 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q When did you start working on the 3 Humphrey campaign? 4 A He ran as a delegate in I think it 5 was '76. 6 Q Who did you work with on the 7 Humphrey campaign? 8 A I really don't recall. 9 Q What were your duties and 10 responsibilities on the Humphrey campaign? 11 A I was organizing people up in 12 Pennsylvania. 13 Q Where were you in Pennsylvania? 14 A In Meadville. You know, I'm really 15 flying here by the seat of my pants because I 16 don't have my resume in front of me and this 17 is over 20, 30 years, I don't really recall 18 these dates and times. 19 Q Just give us general dates. 20 A I know, but if I'm wrong on 21 anything, I know you're going to hold it 22 against me -- 38 1 Q Well, you gave your qualifier. 2 A Hold it against me. 3 Q In Meadville, who did you work 4 with? 5 A The county chairman. 6 Q Who was that? 7 A I don't remember. It might have 8 been my uncle, I'm not sure. 9 Q What is the uncle's name? 10 A It was Roy Marceca, it might have 11 been him, I'm not sure. 12 Q What was Roy Marceca's duties and 13 responsibilities on the Humphrey campaign? 14 A Well he didn't have any 15 responsibilities. He didn't work, I mean he 16 was just a political person up there. 17 Q What were your duties and 18 responsibilities? 19 A I worked with the organization that 20 came in to town, the national organization 21 that came in to town. 22 Q National organization of the 39 1 Humphrey campaign? 2 A I believe so, but I believe he was 3 only active -- I think he lost the 4 nomination, if I recall, in '76 and I think 5 Carter won that. I'm not sure about those 6 dates, though, but I think -- 7 Q Was this 1972 or 1976? 8 A Well I think you're talking 9 about '76. 10 Q '76, okay. Who did you work with 11 on Humphrey's national campaign, who were 12 some of the people? 13 A I remember working with his son. 14 He had -- his son came around. That's the 15 only person that I recall. 16 Q What was the son's name, Herbert 17 Humphrey, Junior, anything like that? 18 A I don't know. I don't recall. I 19 believe we did that in the Spring and then in 20 the Fall we worked on the Carter thing, I 21 worked on the Carter campaign. 22 Q Well who aside from Herbert 40 1 Humphrey's son did you work with in 2 Meadville? 3 A Well there was a local organization 4 there, it was a local Democratic party that I 5 worked with. 6 Q Who did you work with in the local 7 Democratic party? 8 A I don't recall those names. 9 Q Your uncle was chairman of the 10 local Democratic party? 11 A No, sir, he had a business there. 12 He worked there. He was retired and -- 13 Q Do you recall one name? 14 A Other than -- yeah, George 15 Simonetta. 16 Q What did Mr. Simonetta -- 17 A I'm sorry, it was not George 18 Simonetta, he was an attorney. It was Benny 19 Patrusso. 20 Q What did Mr. Patrusso do? 21 A I think he was chairman of the 22 organization for Humphrey. 41 1 Q Who worked under Mr. Patrusso? 2 A A lot of people, I mean -- when you 3 say work, I presume you're talking about 4 salaries. This is not a salary thing. 5 Q Well it doesn't mean salary, 6 volunteer, just names of people who 7 participated on that Humphrey campaign 8 in 1976? 9 A I do not know if those folks, if 10 that's the campaign they worked on. I 11 believe those were the folks that worked on 12 that campaign, but I'm not sure to those 13 dates and times. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's let the record 15 reflect there's a lot of talking going on in 16 the room. Mr. Gilligan and Mr. Muse left the 17 room. It's very disconcerting. 18 MS. GILES: Objection, 19 mischaracterizes the situation. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Does not 21 mischaracterize, that is a 22 mischaracterization. I'm being disconcerted. 42 1 Mr. Fitton, are you being 2 disconcerted? 3 MR. FITTON: Yes. 4 MS. GILES: Who was talking before 5 those two lawyers departed, other than 6 yourself? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: The two lawyers for 8 Mr. Marceca. 9 MS. GILES: Counsel is entitled to 10 confer with each other. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan and 12 Ms. Peterson. 13 I just ask that we kind of have an 14 orderly proceeding here. 15 MR. WEINBERG: For the record, I 16 think in tones that no one could have 17 overheard I spoke with co-counsel for no more 18 than 10 seconds, so if that disconcerted you, 19 you have a very low threshold for being 20 disconcerted. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: It was more than 10 22 seconds and that's a mischaracterization. 43 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking that 3 it stop, that's the reason for it. 4 MR. WEINBERG: If it becomes 5 appropriate in the representation of our 6 client that I need to confer with my 7 co-counsel, I'm going to do that. I'm going 8 to try to do it in a way that doesn't in any 9 way interrupt your question or the flow of 10 what you're doing here. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's why I'm 12 raising it because it did interrupt, it does 13 distract and it's very hard for me and it's 14 hard for the witness to concentrate and I 15 want to make sure the court reporter is 16 hearing what the testimony is. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Well I haven't heard 18 any indication that the court reporter is 19 having difficulty hearing the testimony, but 20 if that's true, we should all know about it 21 and we'll do whatever we have to. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand 44 1 why a simple request, if you have a problem 2 or need to discuss anything, we can take a 3 break. If you want to do that, that's fine. 4 I just ask that it not happen during the flow 5 of the testimony. 6 MR. WEINBERG: If I took a break, 7 then you'd be upset because I was 8 interrupting the flow of your questioning for 9 taking a break for 10 seconds, at the most. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well it was more than 11 that, and now we've got Mr. Gilligan and 12 Ms. Shapiro back there laughing behind me. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I 14 object to that mischaracterization. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: It's very 16 disconcerting. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm having a 18 conference here with my colleague in a very 19 hushed tone so as to not disrupt the 20 deposition, and please stop accusing us of 21 laughing when that is just not true. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: The atmosphere of 45 1 this is like a circus. 2 MS. GILES: Mr. Klayman, let's 3 proceed with the questioning. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Could you read back 5 the question, please? 6 (The reporter read the record as 7 requested.) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Can you tell us who you think 10 worked on the campaign? 11 A Sir, I'm not going to sit here and 12 guess and I cannot recall these events 30 13 years ago. 14 Q Well the reason -- 15 A So you're asking me to be specific 16 about something that I am guessing at and 17 I've guessed at some of these answers, I 18 don't appreciate you putting me in that 19 position. I cannot go back to things 30 20 years ago. I cannot recall those answers, 21 sir. 22 Q Well if you want to consult with 46 1 your attorney on this, that's fine. This is 2 discovery and if you say that I think these 3 people may have worked on the campaign, you 4 can use a qualifier, but this is discovery. 5 You're not in front of the court at 6 a trial and, consequently, we are able to get 7 who you think worked on the campaign right 8 now. If you want to consult with your 9 lawyer, that's fine, because in a proceeding, 10 as your lawyer I think will advise you, 11 discovery is not just what is relevant but 12 what may lead to relevant information. 13 So, these people may have evidence 14 which is quite relevant about your past. 15 That's why we want to get the names. 16 MR. WEINBERG: May I have your 17 indulgence for one moment. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A Sir, I cannot speculate nor do I 21 care to guess to answer that question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I just want to 47 1 put this on the record, I hope that we can 2 take a little break, maybe you can consult 3 with your client. 4 We've had a situation in this case 5 where witnesses have come in and have been 6 instructed that unless they have 100 percent 7 recall, they are not to remember. 8 We've gone through this with the 9 court. The court said that's not an 10 appropriate way to proceed. If you'd like a 11 copy of the order, I'll get you a copy of the 12 order. 13 Secondly, the reason I want to make 14 it clear what's going on in this room with 15 the consultations and with the talking and 16 with the laughing and with the meetings 17 behind me and leaving the room is because 18 you, Counsel, on behalf of Mr. Marceca, moved 19 for a protective order as to why this thing 20 should not be videotaped. Now we are unable 21 because there's no videotape to see this kind 22 of conduct and I think you're taking 48 1 advantage of the situation. 2 MR. WEINBERG: First -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that it stop -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, 5 Counsel, I have neither participated in nor 6 have I seen any laughing. We've already 7 discussed the talking. 8 Second of all, I totally agree and 9 would not take the position and would not 10 advise Mr. Marceca that if he doesn't 11 have 100 percent recall, he shouldn't answer. 12 What he's saying to you is he's not 13 going to speculate or guess and I think it's 14 entirely appropriate for a witness not to be 15 speculating and guessing on the record. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: But if he thinks that 17 he knows who worked on the campaign, he can 18 certainly give a qualifier, so. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't you -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: It's quite clear that 21 this person may not have, but we then have 22 the opportunity to at least know who it may 49 1 be for purposes of follow-up investigation. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I'll be frank with 3 you, you're using your time for this and 4 that's fine. I don't know why you're using 5 your time for this. If you want to ask about 6 who he went to grade school with, that's fine 7 with us. 8 We are sitting here and we have 9 made clear that if you ever get to questions 10 that are germane to this case, he's going to 11 invoke the Fifth Amendment. 12 If you want to ask him questions 13 that he knows the answer to or he thinks he 14 may know the answer to, he'll answer those 15 questions. 16 If you ask him questions where he 17 doesn't know the answer and all he's going to 18 be doing is guessing or speculating, then 19 he's going to tell you he's going to be 20 guessing or speculating and he's not going to 21 do that. 22 If he thinks he knows the answer or 50 1 he's not 100 percent sure, he'll tell you. 2 So, you just ask your questions and get the 3 answer. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the record is 5 clear on exactly what occurred here and for 6 the record, I don't consider this discussion 7 to be part of our time, this disruption, and 8 we hope that he will give us correct answers 9 because as the record now stands, it appears 10 that he's not going to testify unless 11 he's 100 percent certain as to what his 12 answer is. 13 MR. WEINBERG: That is not a 14 correct reading of the record and you're the 15 one who has taken this time on a pursuit that 16 isn't even founded in the record. 17 Why don't you just ask your 18 questions and listen to the answers. You can 19 ask him that question if you want so you know 20 what he's saying when he says he's guessing 21 or speculating. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: While you're making 51 1 proffers, Mr. Weinberg, can you tell me why 2 my questioning is not appropriate right now? 3 MR. WEINBERG: I've said all I 4 intend to say on the matter. 5 Why don't you ask your question? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying I'm 7 not entitled to his background? 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not saying that. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, but your 10 contempt for what I'm doing right now, I'd 11 like to have it on the record. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Whether I have 13 contempt for it or not is I don't think a 14 matter of relevance or significance in the 15 case. You're using your time. 16 Why don't you ask your question. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I want it clear 18 because obviously we've had difficulty here. 19 I'd like to try to eliminate it and move on. 20 If you have a problem with what I'm doing on 21 a legitimate basis -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: We have no 52 1 difficulty. I mean you said and I told you I 2 agree that the issue is not whether he 3 has 100 percent recall. He's not telling you 4 I have something, I have 90 percent recall 5 and I'm not going to tell you. 6 What he's telling you is he doesn't 7 know the answer to your question and he'd 8 have to guess or speculate and that's 9 entirely appropriate and that's why we've 10 taken the last 10 minutes in this discussion 11 which was entirely unnecessary and it's off 12 your time. 13 So, if you want to keep wasting 14 your time, then go ahead. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the court 16 decide whose time it is. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Mr. Marceca, do you think you know 19 who may have worked with you on this 20 campaign? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q Now you're absolutely certain? 53 1 A Sir, I gave you my best guess 2 before and that's what they were. 3 Q Now, who did you work with from the 4 national office aside from Mr. Humphrey's 5 son? 6 A I don't recall any of those people. 7 Q When during the campaign did you 8 learn that opposition research as you defined 9 it was being conducted? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 11 form. 12 THE WITNESS: I had learned within 13 a week of the election as I believe that 14 there were phone calls being made by the 15 other party to Democratic voters. That's the 16 first time I had ever seen that sort of 17 conduct. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q The other party being the 20 Republican party? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q You thought that was wrong? 54 1 A No, sir. 2 Q You thought that's fine? 3 A What I, you're asking me a broad, 4 general question about what, about the event 5 and there was, and I have an opinion about 6 what happened, but not, but your question did 7 not go to the event. 8 Q Tell me everything about what 9 happened. 10 A They were making telephone calls to 11 Democratic voters and they were putting out 12 misinformation and that's the first time I 13 had ever seen that. That I found, I did not 14 think was part of the Democratic process. 15 Q What misinformation were they 16 putting out? 17 A As I recall, they were just putting 18 out flat out lies about the candidate at that 19 time. 20 Q What were the flat out lies? 21 A I don't recall that. 22 Q Do you remember generally? 55 1 A I really don't. 2 Q It was something you found 3 shocking, correct? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Something which you found 6 disgusting? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 8 form. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Correct? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q But it also was quite effective, 13 wasn't it? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q In fact, it resulted in Humphrey 16 not getting the nomination? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 18 form. 19 THE WITNESS: No, sir. Your time 20 frame is wrong on that, sir. This was, as I 21 mentioned, it was during the general election 22 and I believe that Carter won that race, so I 56 1 don't think it helped him. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So we are talking about Carter, as 4 opposed to Humphrey? 5 A I said it was the fall of '76, as 6 best I recall, and I'm not sure of that year, 7 but I believe it was '76, in the fall of '76 8 just prior to the election that I first 9 learned of that. 10 Q You started off working with 11 Humphrey and then started to work for Carter; 12 is that the way it worked? 13 A I did not work for Carter. 14 Q So just try to explain to us how 15 Humphrey fits in to this misinformation 16 concerning Carter? 17 A Humphrey lost in the primary, I 18 don't believe -- and as I recall, I think 19 Carter got the nomination, so Humphrey was 20 out of the race in '76. 21 Q Now, the misinformation related to 22 Carter? 57 1 A The campaign involved Carter, yes, 2 sir. 3 Q It was the Republicans who were 4 putting out this misinformation on Carter? 5 A Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 6 Q You then went to work for the 7 Carter campaign? 8 A No, sir, I did not. I didn't say 9 that, either. I didn't say that I had 10 anything to do with the Carter campaign. 11 Q But you just learned that this was 12 happening? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q How did you learn this was 15 happening? 16 A I received a phone call, myself. 17 Q Who did you get the phone call 18 from? 19 A From some, from some phone bank 20 somewhere. 21 Q It was about some aspect of the 22 personal life of Jimmy Carter? 58 1 A Yes, sir, as I recall. 2 Q Does that help refresh your 3 recollection about what aspect? 4 A No, sir. You mean the content of 5 the phone call, I don't recall that. 6 Q Did it deal with his brother, 7 Billy? 8 A I don't recall that, sir. 9 Q Did it deal with his involvement 10 with the Bank of Commerce and Credit 11 International? 12 A As I recall, I don't -- I cannot 13 recall anything about the content of that 14 telephone call, sir. I just know that it was 15 an important phone call. 16 Q Did it concern about any alleged 17 involvement with Arab financial interests? 18 A Not to my recollection, sir. 19 Q It was clear that they had gathered 20 information, the Republicans, on Carter? 21 A No, sir, that's not, that's not 22 correct. 59 1 Q What's correct then? 2 A Your question is not correct. 3 Q Well, tell me what your 4 understanding was? 5 A They were putting out 6 misinformation about the candidate. 7 Q When you received that 8 misinformation, do you believe that this kind 9 of misinformation could color a voter's 10 opinion of Carter such that the voter 11 wouldn't vote for him? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q While you found this abhorrent, you 14 also thought at the time that, in fact, this 15 could be effective? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 17 form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q So it's your opinion at the time 22 that misinformation, when spewed forth about 60 1 a candidate, would have no affect on his or 2 her reputation? 3 A At that time, sir, I was not doing 4 anything with campaigns and I did not frame 5 that in that method as to using that later on 6 or anything like that. That's an assumption 7 on your part, sir. There's no basis for 8 that, to make that assumption that I can see. 9 There was -- because I have not led you in 10 that direction. I was not involved in 11 politics. You're wrong on that questioning, 12 sir. 13 Q No, but I'm just asking you a 14 simple question, at the time that you, John 15 Q. Citizen, received this call about then to 16 become President Carter, you thought to 17 yourself this kind of misinformation could 18 damage Carter's reputation, correct? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 20 form. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 61 1 Q At that time? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q You said to yourself that if people 4 got this information that were less 5 sophisticated than me, Anthony Marceca, this 6 could affect whether they vote for President 7 Carter, correct? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 9 form. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q At that time? 12 A The answer to that is I don't know 13 that I thought, I don't recall that I thought 14 that at all. I just know that it was not a 15 palatable thing and I did not go off in 16 those, in that thought process that you're 17 leading, sir. 18 Q Well you just tell me what you 19 think, that's all I'm asking. 20 Now, were there other instances 21 where you later learned that opposition 22 research came in to vogue, as you testified 62 1 to, other than this one phone call? 2 A I didn't see that for maybe 10 3 years later when I was involved in another 4 campaign. 5 Q Did you get more than one call 6 about then Governor Carter? 7 A No, not that I can recall. 8 Q You say it came up 10 years later 9 in another campaign. How did it come up? 10 MR. WEINBERG: May I have your 11 indulgence? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Where did it come up 10 years 14 later? 15 A At this moment, I'm going to state 16 that you were notified by my counsel prior to 17 this deposition in response to all questions 18 germane to this lawsuit that I'm invoking my 19 constitutional Fifth Amendment privilege not 20 to testify. 21 Q The campaign that it came up 22 concerning was a campaign of then Governor 63 1 Bill Clinton of Arkansas? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, according to the 9 case law, Counsel, he has to make a proffer 10 as to why this evidence would tend to 11 incriminate him. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question if that was, in fact, a 14 question. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: No, it wasn't a 16 question. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Counsel, Mr. Marceca 18 is named in a referral to the independent 19 counsel. He's been sent over by name. He's 20 a named target of investigation by 21 independent counsel. 22 There have been an extraordinary 64 1 number of allegations that have floated 2 around in the press and on the Internet about 3 Mr. Marceca, most of them quite frankly 4 ridiculous and bizarre allegations, but the 5 allegations are out there. 6 He's in a vulnerable position where 7 he is a named target of a referral to the 8 independent counsel. Any question that he 9 answers that could provide a link in the 10 chain with respect to any of those 11 allegations is something that he is not 12 required to do under the Fifth Amendment and 13 that's the basis on which he is going to 14 decline to answer pursuant to his Fifth 15 Amendment right every question that is in any 16 way germane to this case or involves any of 17 those sorts of allegations of wrongdoing that 18 are floating around, bizarre as they may be, 19 about Mr. Marceca. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: What I want to 21 understand is, I'm saying that there's a 22 legal requirement or Hoffman v. United 65 1 States, 341 US 479 at 4861951 that when you 2 assert the Fifth Amendment claim, you must 3 set forth the reasons why it may tend to 4 incriminate you. You may make a proffer to 5 that affect. 6 I'd like to be able to make the 7 proffer so the court will be able to assess 8 whether or not this claim is valid or not. 9 It is not sufficient, Mr. Weinberg, to say, 10 and I understand your interest in the 11 Internet, to say that because people are 12 discussing what happened in the Clinton 13 administration and various people on the 14 Internet, that that is the basis to invoke a 15 Fifth Amendment claim. 16 There have been other targets of 17 grand jury investigations under the 18 independent counsel who have testified in 19 this case without invoking their Fifth 20 Amendment privilege, assuming it's invoked 21 properly. 22 MR. WEINBERG: We, in 1996, when 66 1 this issue came up in front of the United 2 States Senate, at that time we listed I 3 believe, unless I've miscounted, well over 20 4 specific allegations of potential criminal 5 wrongdoing that had been made about 6 Mr. Marceca in some kind of public manner or 7 another. 8 When independent counsel has a 9 referral which names Mr. Marceca, that 10 referral has not been acted on. Mr. Marceca 11 is a named target of that investigation. 12 He's got all these allegations floating 13 around. If you want the ones we listed 14 in 1996, I'll give them to you. We could 15 probably triple the list at this point. 16 The allegations we listed are on 17 the public record. We've submitted this in a 18 public filing to the United States Senate, 19 and you're welcome to take a look at it and 20 it's a very specific proffer. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: In all due respect to 22 the United States Senate, of which I am an 67 1 alumni myself, not as a Senator, but as an 2 assistant, a political proceeding is not the 3 equivalent of a court proceeding and you have 4 to invoke the grounds that you are claiming 5 the Fifth Amendment privilege question by 6 question. 7 Just to make a blanket statement 8 that these are the reasons are not 9 sufficient, it must be done based on each 10 question. 11 MR. WEINBERG: You've been asking 12 questions for however long we've been here 13 and we haven't invoked the right until this 14 point and he'll definitely do it on a 15 question-by-question basis. 16 We could make life easier, to be 17 frank, if you want to give us a list of 18 questions, we can probably stipulate which 19 ones we'll answer, but we'll invoke it on a 20 question-by-question basis. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I will not give you a 22 list of questions because obviously we have 68 1 gotten testimony here. We were led to 2 believe that we wouldn't get any testimony, 3 and so was the court. In fact, we've gotten 4 testimony and some of it is quite helpful. 5 MR. WEINBERG: We have said you 6 won't get any testimony on matters that were 7 germane to the allegations in the complaint. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, this is 9 germane. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well we need to 11 decide what is germane and what is not. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: This is germane and 13 we did get a response to the fact that 10 14 years later there was an instance where this 15 opposition research played a role. He 16 answered that question, so he would have 17 waived his Fifth Amendment privilege even if 18 he had a valid one. 19 MR. WEINBERG: This is exactly why, 20 this is exactly why he is claiming the Fifth 21 Amendment privilege to the question you just 22 asked him and will on questions of that 69 1 nature about any of these allegations because 2 you or somebody like you will claim that he's 3 just provided a link in the chain and will 4 have waived his privilege and that's exactly 5 why no matter how bizarre your questions get 6 and no matter how little foundation you have 7 for the questions, if they have allegations 8 of wrongdoing in any way by Mr. Marceca, 9 potential criminal wrongdoing, he is going to 10 claim his Fifth Amendment right. 11 We'll do it on a 12 question-by-question basis, so ask your 13 questions. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: We do not dispute 15 that you can attempt to assert the Fifth 16 Amendment privilege. But rather than making 17 accusations against me which I consider 18 scurrilous, similar to what you put in your 19 pleadings yesterday, I'm going to ask that 20 you withdraw the scurrilous accusations. 21 We'll have a 108 conference later, 22 and we'll file a motion to strike. I'm 70 1 asking that we simply follow the law here. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I wouldn't want to 3 do anything other than follow the law. 4 So, you ask your questions and we 5 will follow the law as to when to invoke the 6 privilege. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the 8 question? 9 (The reporter read the record as 10 requested.) 11 MR. KLAYMAN: What I'm asking for 12 is a proffer as to why that would tend to 13 incriminate him? 14 MR. WEINBERG: I've just given you 15 the proffer and I'll give you this filing 16 which is a public filing which may be helpful 17 to you, but I think we've made a sufficient 18 proffer. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Under what case? I 20 also cite the case of Parkersburg. 21 Wireless 156 Federal rules decision 22 at 535 quoting United States v. Melcore 71 1 Marino, wherein it states as to each question 2 to which a claim of privilege is directed, 3 the court must determine whether the answer 4 to that particular question would subject the 5 witness to the real danger of further 6 incrimination. 7 As a result, these cases have held 8 that you have to make a proffer why, in fact, 9 there is a danger of incrimination, question 10 by question. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Question by 12 question. We are prepared to do it and we 13 are fully familiar with those cases, so ask 14 your questions, question by question, we will 15 make a determination. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Read back that 17 question, please. 18 (The reporter read the record as 19 requested.) 20 MR. KLAYMAN: He's taken the Fifth. 21 What is the proffer that you wish to make, 22 Mr. Weinberg? 72 1 MR. WEINBERG: I've made the 2 proffer already. You'll find ample 3 documentation in. If you want to take time 4 out to read it, it might be helpful, in this 5 public pleading to explain why we are taking 6 the Fifth Amendment on that question. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I want it on the 8 record in this case. A political proceeding 9 up in the Senate is not this case. 10 MR. WEINBERG: What I said, and I'm 11 just repeating myself now on your time, is 12 that in this pleading which was in July 13 of 1996, almost three years ago, at that 14 time, and I didn't -- my count may be 15 approximate, but we listed over 20 specific 16 allegations, rumors of criminal wrongdoing 17 that were floating around in the public media 18 or elsewhere about potential criminal 19 wrongdoing by Mr. Marceca. 20 That would include allegations that 21 your question is related to and if you want 22 to take a look at this, I'll make it part of 73 1 the record. It's already in the public 2 record and maybe that will be helpful to you. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I'd like your 4 proffer right now, if you would. 5 Why don't you read it in to the 6 record what you consider to be relevant to 7 that last question? 8 MR. WEINBERG: I have made the 9 proffer. I don't have to identify for you 10 the particular, that would be undoing the 11 Fifth Amendment at its core. I don't have to 12 identify for you the particular way in which 13 this answer might impinge on his Fifth 14 Amendment rights and answer the question. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your position 16 that this court is bound by the Senate 17 proceedings? 18 MR. WEINBERG: That's not my 19 position that court is bound by the Senate or 20 bound by the position that the independent 21 counsel has taken which has also recognized 22 Mr. Marceca's Fifth Amendment right. 74 1 But the court is bound by the law 2 in the cases and the same cases, we've all 3 read the same cases and I'm very comfortable 4 that our proffer is more than adequate under 5 those cases. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like the proffer 7 made in this record. The Senate record is 8 not the record of this court. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well as I say, I'll 10 be happy to enter this document on the 11 record. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking you 13 specifically what in the document is relevant 14 to the question that is pending. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, on pages 5 16 and 6, among other places, we list, as I say, 17 over 20 specific allegations of potential 18 criminal wrongdoing by Mr. Marceca and 19 whenever there is a question asked that may 20 provide a link in the chain as to one of 21 those allegations, however absurd the 22 allegations may be, given his position and 75 1 given the fact that he's a target before the 2 independent counsel, we are going to invoke 3 his Fifth Amendment right. 4 If you want me to make this, I've 5 just told you the pages, mark it as an 6 exhibit and we'll make it part of the record, 7 mark it as Exhibit 2. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't agree with 9 that procedure, but I do want to see the 10 document and let's take a two-minute break 11 and we'll make copies of the document. 12 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 13 No. 2 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 (Recessed 11:16 a.m.) 16 (Reconvene 11:25 a.m.) 17 MR. WEINBERG: Let me, just so the 18 record is absolutely clear, after Marceca 19 Exhibit No. 1 was marked, and it was exactly 20 what we represented it to be, at points 21 during the, your questioning, Mr. Marceca 22 doodled and wrote things on the exhibit. 76 1 There's a coffee stain on the exhibit. 2 You can do whatever you want. You 3 can treat this as all part of the exhibit or 4 not. I just want to make sure it's clear 5 what's on the document. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, shouldn't we be 7 allowed to ask him those questions rather 8 than your saying that this happened after the 9 fact? We don't know that. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead. That's 11 fine, if you want. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: We don't know that. 13 We'll get back to that. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Just let me say one 15 more thing about the subject we were on 16 before and that is that the allegations that 17 we listed at page 5 and 6 of the document 18 that we have just provided to you in 1996 19 were allegations that were being made and 20 were floating around contemporaneous with the 21 referral of Mr. Marceca to the independent 22 counsel. 77 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your position, 2 I'm looking at page 5, where it says, "News 3 accounts regarding Mr. Marceca suggest 4 potential allegations of criminal wrongdoing 5 against Mr. Marceca in the following." It 6 then lists in certain categories items on 7 pages 5 and 6. 8 Is it your position that news 9 accounts places Mr. Marceca in a position of 10 potential incrimination? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Our position is that 12 he is, has been named in a referral to the 13 independent counsel. The referral was for 14 purposes of a criminal investigation, that 15 there are allegations that have been made by 16 a number of people. The fact that they were 17 in the news media doesn't mean that they were 18 necessarily made by news people of criminal 19 conduct by Mr. Marceca. 20 The referral to the independent 21 counsel specifically says whether Mr. Marceca 22 committed a violation of 18 USC 1001 or any 78 1 other Federal criminal law. It was a very 2 broad referral without any boundaries with 3 respect to Federal law. 4 These are all allegations that have 5 been made against Mr. Marceca by a variety of 6 sources and Mr. Marceca has to take those 7 seriously and is not going to waive his Fifth 8 Amendment rights with respect to anything 9 that could provide a link in the chain with 10 respect to that. 11 That request, although it's not 12 binding on anybody, I should say that's been 13 honored by both the United States Senate and 14 by the independent counsel's office. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Has Marceca learned 16 that he is a target of the grand jury 17 investigation with Ken Starr? 18 MR. WEINBERG: I think he's by 19 definition the target when he is the named, 20 he is the named person in a referral. In 21 other words, this wasn't some kind of general 22 referral. He was sent over by name a 79 1 referral specifically. 2 Here, let me read it. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: But he's not been 4 formally notified by Ken Starr or his office, 5 Mr. Weinberg? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I think that it's 7 not, what the grand jury does or doesn't do 8 is not something that's appropriate for you 9 to inquire into in this deposition. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well it's appropriate 11 because we need to know whether his testimony 12 has any risk of incriminating him. I mean if 13 he's not a named subject or a target, then I 14 don't see how it would have that degree of 15 risk. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well I think we've 17 made our proffer and if you believe our 18 proffer is not adequate, you should take it 19 up with the court. We can brief the issue, 20 and then the court will decide. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: The burden is on the 22 party asserting the Fifth Amendment privilege 80 1 to move the court to be able to assert it. 2 You have not filed a brief with the 3 court, correct? 4 MR. WEINBERG: We have asserted the 5 privilege as we've notified everybody, 6 including the court, we were going to do in 7 this deposition. If you want to take further 8 steps with respect to our assertion of the 9 privilege, then, you know, take it up with 10 the court. You're just taking up your time 11 right now. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well the court will 13 decide whose time is which. I'm trying to 14 get a clarity for the court on the record as 15 to what is occurring. 16 Whether or not you've advised the 17 court you're taking the Fifth, the case law 18 is clear that you must assert question by 19 question the basis upon which that question 20 may tend to incriminate him. 21 I'm asking you as his lawyer to 22 tell me what in here on pages 5 and 6 and 81 1 I'll ask that this document be Marked 2 Exhibit 2, it's a memorandum of Anthony B. 3 Marceca regarding Fifth Amendment issues of 4 July 24, 1996, before the United States 5 Senate Committee on the judiciary by Robert 6 M. Weinberg, which is yourself, and Robert F. 7 Muse, both representing Mr. Marceca here 8 today. 9 What is it, if anything, in this 10 document that you wish to assert in not 11 responding to the outstanding question? 12 MR. WEINBERG: I'll stand on the 13 proffer that we've made. We have no 14 obligation to tell you what specific, to end 15 up giving you the very testimony that the 16 Fifth Amendment protects Mr. Marceca from 17 having to give to invoke the Fifth Amendment. 18 I'll stand on the proffer. If you 19 don't think the proffer is adequate, then you 20 know what your recourse is. I think you 21 ought to go ahead with your questioning. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it is our 82 1 position that it's grossly inadequate. I 2 wanted to get your clarified, your position. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Marceca, in terms of your 5 representation before the Senate which gave 6 rise to Exhibit 2, who was paying for your 7 legal fees? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Let me have your 9 indulgence for just a minute. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Just let the record 11 reflect the consultation took several 12 minutes. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Go ahead, you can respond. 15 A Nobody is paying my legal fees. 16 I'm paying myself. 17 Q Have you actually paid any money 18 thus far in the Senate proceeding and in this 19 proceeding here today? 20 A A moment to confer. 21 (Witness conferred with counsel) 22 THE WITNESS: Not directly to this. 83 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What do you mean? 3 A Not concerning this motion or this 4 action. 5 Q The case you're here on today? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Have you paid money with regard to 8 any other proceedings? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Any other 10 proceedings in his life or any other 11 proceedings, why don't you make it specific? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Any proceedings with regard to the 14 matters discussed in Exhibit 2. 15 A Let me see Exhibit 2. What page 16 were those, sir? What are you talking about? 17 Q I'm saying the whole exhibit. 18 A No, oh, no, the answer is no. 19 Q You have not paid any moneys 20 concerning those matters? 21 A As it relates to this, no. 22 Q Has someone told you that they will 84 1 provide the moneys to you to pay your legal 2 fees in this case or any other case involving 3 this whole Filegate, FBI file matter? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you know where you're going to 6 get the money? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Where will you get it? 9 A From my retirement. 10 Q Now, in terms of, there came a 11 point in time, did there not, when you 12 started to work at the White House, correct? 13 A As I have previously stated, I am 14 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 15 response to all questions germane to the 16 allegations in this lawsuit. 17 Q Under what basis did you start to 18 work at the White House? 19 A As I have previously stated, I am 20 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 21 response to all questions germane to this 22 lawsuit. 85 1 Q You began your work at the White 2 House for the purpose of obtaining FBI 3 materials on Republicans to smear them with, 4 correct? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 6 of the question. I object to the absence of 7 any factual basis for the question. 8 MS. GILES: Join in the objection. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I join that. 10 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 11 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 12 privilege in response to all questions 13 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You were assigned to the White 16 House to gather FBI materials to smear 17 Republicans by Hillary Rodham Clinton, 18 correct? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 20 of the question. Mr. Klayman, I object in 21 particular because you have absolutely no 22 factual basis whatsoever to pose that 86 1 question. I believe you know that. 2 I will object to all questions on 3 that basis that are worded in a similar 4 fashion. I also object to the form of the 5 question. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 7 objection. 8 THE WITNESS: As I have stated 9 previously, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 10 privilege in response to all questions 11 germane to this lawsuit. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You were assigned to the White 14 House to help gather and review FBI materials 15 on Republicans at the request of William 16 Jefferson Clinton? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 18 of the question. I object, again, to 19 Counsel's posing that question without any 20 factual basis for doing so. 21 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 22 Objection to lack of foundation. 87 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 2 objections. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Are you invoking any privilege? 5 A As I have previously stated, I am 6 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 7 response to all questions germane to the 8 allegations in this lawsuit. 9 Q You have knowledge, do you not, 10 that you, Anthony Marceca, and others at the 11 White House, obtained FBI data on Republicans 12 and used that data by releasing it in to the 13 public domain to try to harm the reputations 14 of those Republicans? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 16 of the question. I object to the question 17 being posed without any factual basis 18 whatsoever. 19 MS. GILES: Join in that objection. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 21 objection. 22 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 88 1 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 2 privilege in response to all questions 3 germane to this, the allegations in this 4 lawsuit. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q It was not within the scope of your 7 employment in working at the White House 8 during the Clinton administration to gather 9 FBI materials, to review FBI materials and to 10 release FBI materials in to the public domain 11 on Republicans, correct? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 15 objection. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You have knowledge that it was not 22 within the scope of employment of Craig 89 1 Livingstone to participate in gathering FBI 2 material on Republicans, reviewing it and 3 releasing it in to the public domain for the 4 purpose of harming the reputation of those 5 Republicans, correct? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Join in that 9 objection. 10 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 11 Objection to lack of foundation. 12 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 13 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 14 privilege in response to all questions 15 germane to this lawsuit. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Same question with regard to 18 William Kennedy? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. 21 MS. GILES: Same objections. 22 MS. COHEN: I join in those 90 1 questions. 2 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 3 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 4 privilege in response to all questions 5 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Same question with regard to 8 Bernard Nussbaum? 9 MS. COHEN: I object to the form of 10 that question, lack of foundation. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Join in the 12 objection. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Join in the 14 objection. 15 MS. GILES: Join. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Same question with regard to Vince 22 Foster? 91 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 3 MS. GILES: Same objections. 4 MS. COHEN: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 6 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 7 privilege in response to all questions 8 germane to this lawsuit. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Same question with regard to Betsy 11 Pond? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 13 MS. GILES: Same objections. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Join. 15 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 16 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 17 privilege in response to all questions 18 germane to this lawsuit. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Same question with regard to Debra 21 Gorham? 22 MS. GILES: Same objections. 92 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 2 MS. COHEN: Same objections. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to this lawsuit. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Same question with regard to 10 Stephen Waudby? 11 MS. GILES: Same objections. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 13 MS. COHEN: Same observations. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 15 THE WITNESS: As I previously 16 stated, I'm invoking my Fifth Amendment 17 privilege in response to all questions 18 germane to this lawsuit. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Same question with regard to Steve 21 Neuwirth? 22 MS. GILES: Same objections. 93 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 2 MS. COHEN: Same observations. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to this lawsuit. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Same question with regard to Bruce 10 Lindsay? 11 MS. GILES: Same objections. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 14 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 15 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 16 privilege in response to questions germane to 17 this lawsuit. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Same question with regard to Jane 20 Sherburne? 21 MS. GILES: Same objections. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 94 1 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 2 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 3 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 4 privilege in response to all questions 5 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Same questions with regard to Jack 8 Quinn? 9 MS. GILES: Same objections. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 12 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 13 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 14 privilege in response to all questions 15 germane to this lawsuit. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Same question with regard to Joel 18 Klein? 19 MS. GILES: Same objections. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 22 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 95 1 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 2 privilege in response to all questions 3 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Same question with regard to Maggie 6 Williams? 7 MS. GILES: Same objections. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 10 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 11 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 12 privilege in response to all questions 13 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Same question with regard to Cheryl 16 Mills? 17 MS. GILES: Same objections. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 20 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 21 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 22 privilege in response to all questions 96 1 germane to this lawsuit. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Same question with regard to Chris 4 Cerf? 5 MS. GILES: Same objections. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 8 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 9 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 10 privilege in response to all questions 11 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Same question with regard to Cliff 14 Sloan? 15 MS. GILES: Same objection. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. 18 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 19 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 20 privilege in response to all questions 21 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 97 1 Q Same question with regard to Beth 2 Nolan? 3 MS. GILES: Same objections. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 6 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 7 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 8 privilege in response to all questions 9 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Same question with regard to Nathan 12 Marceca? 13 MS. GILES: Same objections. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to the allegations of this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Same question with regard to Mary 22 Anderson? 98 1 MS. GILES: Same objection. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objection. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q All of the people that I've just 10 mentioned you have knowledge that they worked 11 at the White House during the Clinton 12 administration? 13 A As I have previously stated, I am 14 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 15 response to all questions germane to the 16 allegations in this lawsuit. 17 Q With regard to all the persons I've 18 just mentioned, you have knowledge that they 19 had access to FBI background summary 20 materials when they worked at the White House 21 during the Clinton administration? 22 A As I have previously stated, I am 99 1 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 2 response to all questions germane to the 3 allegations in this lawsuit. 4 Q With regard to all of the persons 5 that I have named, you are aware that they 6 were not hired to gather information through 7 FBI background materials to use on 8 Republicans and perceived political 9 adversaries for the purposes of harming their 10 reputation in the public domain? 11 A That question is incoherent, could 12 you please rephrase that. I couldn't 13 understand what you were asking. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Please read it back. 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 18 the question. Object to the question being 19 posed without any factual basis. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 21 objection. 22 MS. COHEN: I join in that 100 1 objection. 2 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 3 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 4 privilege in response to all questions 5 germane to this lawsuit. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You are aware that all of the 8 persons that I named have worked for the 9 Clinton administration? 10 A As I have previously stated, I am 11 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 12 response to all questions germane to the 13 allegations in this lawsuit. 14 Q You are aware that Lisa Wetzl, Ed 15 Hughes and Jonathan Denbo have worked for the 16 Clinton administration at the White House? 17 A As I have previously stated, I'm 18 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 19 response to all questions germane to the 20 allegations in this lawsuit. 21 Q You are aware that they were not 22 hired to gather information through FBI 101 1 summary background reports to use against 2 Republicans and others to smear their 3 reputations in the public domain? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 5 the question. I object to the question being 6 posed without any factual basis. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 8 objection. 9 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 10 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 11 privilege in response to all questions 12 germane to this lawsuit. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You are aware that Jonathan Denbo, 15 Lisa Wetzl and Ed Hughes did gain access to 16 FBI summary materials during their period of 17 employment at the White House to use against 18 Republicans and others to smear their 19 reputations in the public domain? 20 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 21 Objection as to lack of foundation. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objection. 102 1 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. 2 MS. COHEN: I join. 3 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 4 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 5 privilege in response to all questions 6 germane to this lawsuit. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Do you know a George 9 Stephanopoulos? 10 A As I have previously stated, I am 11 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 12 response to all questions germane to this 13 lawsuit. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: How does that tend to 15 incriminate him, Mr. Weinberg? 16 MR. WEINBERG: I made the proffer 17 already. Why don't you go ahead and ask the 18 question. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Do you know a Harold Ickes? 21 A As I have previously stated, I am 22 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 103 1 response to all questions germane to the 2 allegations in this lawsuit. 3 Q Both Mr. Stephanopoulos and Harold 4 Ickes participated in obtaining FBI 5 background materials on Republicans and 6 others while they worked at the White House 7 during the Clinton administration for the 8 purposes of harming the reputation of 9 Republicans and others? 10 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 11 Object to lack of foundation. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Join in the 13 objection. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 15 objection. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You have knowledge about the 22 question I just asked, don't you? 104 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Join in the 4 objection. 5 MS. GILES: Join in the objection. 6 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 7 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 8 privilege in response to all questions 9 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know James Carville? 12 A As I have previously stated, I am 13 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 14 response to all questions germane to the 15 allegations in this lawsuit. 16 Q Have you ever worked with James 17 Carville? 18 A As I have previously stated, I am 19 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 20 response to all questions germane to this 21 lawsuit. 22 Q Do you have knowledge that James 105 1 Carville obtained or had access to FBI 2 background summary material in conjunction 3 with the White House to use against 4 Republicans and other perceived political 5 adversaries for the purposes of harming their 6 reputation in the public domain? 7 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 8 Objection as to the lack of any factual 9 foundation. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 11 objection, those objections. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Join in the 13 objection. 14 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 15 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 16 privilege in response to all questions 17 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you have knowledge that the 20 White House worked in conjunction with its 21 counsel at Williams and Connolly in employing 22 private investigators which had access to FBI 106 1 background material for the purposes of using 2 that FBI material to smear Republicans and 3 perceived political adversaries by releasing 4 that information in to the public domain? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 6 of the question. I object further that it 7 lacks any factual foundation whatsoever and I 8 invite counsel to withdraw the question. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You can respond. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 12 objections. 13 MS. COHEN: I join in those 14 objections. 15 MS. GILES: Join in the objections. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Do you know an individual by the 22 name of Terry Lenzner? 107 1 A As I have previously stated, I am 2 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 3 response to all questions germane to this 4 lawsuit. 5 Q Do you know an investigative firm 6 by the name of IGI International? 7 A As I have previously stated, I am 8 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 9 response to all questions germane to this 10 lawsuit. 11 Q Do you have information that Terry 12 Lenzner and IGI are employed by Williams and 13 Connolly on behalf of the President and 14 Mrs. Clinton? 15 A As I have previously stated, I am 16 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 17 response to all questions germane to the 18 allegations in this lawsuit. 19 Q Do you have knowledge that Terry 20 Lenzner and IGI employ former officials of 21 the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 22 A As I have previously stated, I am 108 1 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 2 response to all questions germane to the 3 allegations in this lawsuit. 4 Q Do you have knowledge that one of 5 the former officials employed by Terry 6 Lenzner and IGI of the Federal Bureau of 7 Investigations is Mr. Larry Potts? 8 A As I have previously stated, I am 9 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 10 response to all questions germane to the 11 allegations in the lawsuit. 12 Q Do you have information that former 13 FBI officials employed by Terry Lenzner and 14 IGI have obtained FBI background materials on 15 Republicans and perceived adversaries of the 16 Clinton administration through their contacts 17 with the FBI and used that information to 18 effect the reputations of these Republicans 19 and perceived political adversaries by 20 releasing that information in to the public 21 domain? 22 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 109 1 Objection as to the lack of any factual 2 foundation. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 4 objections. 5 MS. COHEN: I join in those 6 objections. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I join in those 8 objections. 9 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 10 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 11 privilege in response to all questions 12 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Have you read any depositions from 15 any legal proceedings in preparation for this 16 deposition here today? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Indulge me a moment. 18 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 19 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 20 privilege in response to all questions 21 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 110 1 Q You, Mr. Marceca, have had 2 conversations with Hillary Rodham Clinton 3 where you have discussed obtaining FBI 4 background summary materials on Republicans 5 and perceived adversaries of the Clinton 6 administration for the purposes of using that 7 information to harm their reputations by 8 releasing it in to the public domain? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 10 of the question. I object the question is 11 posed without any factual basis. 12 MS. GILES: Join in that objection. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 14 objections. 15 MS. COHEN: I join those. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You, Mr. Marceca, have information 21 that Hillary Rodham Clinton hired Craig 22 Livingstone to work at the White House? 111 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. I object to the question 3 being posed without a factual basis. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 5 objections. 6 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 7 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 8 privilege in response to all questions 9 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Same question with regard to 12 William Kennedy? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 15 objection. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germ