UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ---------------------------------x CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER et al., : : Plaintiffs, : : : v. : No. 96-2123-RCL : FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION : et al., : : Defendants. : ---------------------------------x Washington, D.C. Wednesday, June 9 1999 Deposition of ANTHONY B. MARCECA a witness, called for further examination by counsel for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and agreement of counsel, continuing at approximately 10:14 a.m. at the offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street S.W., Washington, D.C., before Monica A. Voorhees of Beta Reporting & Video, notary public in and for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of the respective parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street S.W. 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of 7 Investigation and the Executive Office of the President: 8 ELIZABETH SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 9 JAMES GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 10 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 11 901 E Street N.W., Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 12 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 14 ALLISON C. GILES, ESQUIRE 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 16 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. 17 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 18 19 On behalf of The White House: 20 MICHELLE PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Associate Counsel to the President 21 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 22 (202) 456-5079 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Nussbaum: 3 YOCHEVED COHEN, ESQUIRE Wachtel, Lipton, Rosen & Katz 4 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 5 (212) 403-1000 6 On behalf of Deponent: 7 ROBERT M. WEINBERG, ESQUIRE 8 Bredhoff & Kaiser 1000 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. 9 Washington, D.C. (202) 833-9340 10 ROBERT F. MUSE, ESQUIRE 11 DANIEL J. CHEPAITIS, ESQUIRE Stein, Mitchell & Mezines 12 1100 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20036 13 (202) 737-7777 14 15 16 17 * * * * * 18 19 20 21 22 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5 4 MARCERCA DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 5 No. 1 - Fifth Amendment Statement 7 6 No. 2 - Memorandum Regarding 75 Fifth Amendment Issues 7 No. 3 - Subpoena Duces Tecum 120 8 No. 4 - WAVES Logs 139 9 No. 5 - Declaration 219 10 No. 6 - Requisition Forms 324 11 No. 7 - Chart, FBI Files Ordered, 335 12 Attachment 13 No. 8 - Website, Archives Article 337 14 No. 9 - Memorandum, Beck to Podesta 339 15 No. 10 - Response to Request #3 351 16 No. 11 - Hearing Excerpt 383 17 No. 12 - Tribune Article 408 18 No. 13 - Document, Marceca File 414 19 No. 14 - Zenith Laptop File 418 20 No. 15 - Handwritten Notes 427 21 No. 16 - 1993 Calendar 432 22 No. 17 - 1994 Calendar 432 * * * * * 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 ANTHONY B. MARCECA 4 was called as a witness and, having been 5 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 6 as follows: 7 MR. GILLIGAN: What time is it? 8 COURT REPORTER: 10:14. 9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Would you please state your name? 12 A Anthony B. Marceca. 13 Q When were you born, Mr. Marceca? 14 A June 8, 1942. 15 Q Where were you born? 16 A In Meadville, Pennsylvania. 17 Q Where did you go to high school? 18 A St. Agatha High School. 19 Q How's that spelled? 20 A A-G-A-T-H-A. 21 Q When did you graduate? 22 A 1961. 6 1 Q What do you have in your hand? 2 A A piece of paper. 3 Q Does it say anything on it? 4 A Yes, it does. 5 Q What does it say? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'll be glad to show 7 you this. We, as you know, we have notified 8 you directly and in pleadings for months that 9 Mr. Marceca would take the Fifth Amendment 10 and, for his comfort as to words he wanted to 11 use to do that when the questions as to the 12 substance of this case came, this is a 13 formulation which he will be using. I'm 14 happy to show it to you. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we mark that as 16 an exhibit? I was just concerned that it 17 might have notes on it that would bear on his 18 testimony. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Well it will bear on 20 his testimony. You'll hear these words over 21 and over again, so I don't think you'll have 22 any problem having the words in the record. 7 1 If you want to see it -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's mark it as an 3 exhibit, and then he can read from it. 4 MR. MUSE: Well, it's not time to 5 read it. Why don't you wait a while. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well he's got a 7 document in his hand. It's relevant to this 8 case. 9 If we could move it along, let's 10 just mark it as Exhibit 1. 11 I ask that one lawyer make 12 objections; the court has asked that be the 13 way we proceed. 14 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 15 No. 1 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 MR. WEINBERG: It may expedite 18 matters, since you've marked it as an 19 exhibit, since when the time comes for him to 20 invoke his right, he just refers to 21 Exhibit 1. That might make this go quickly. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there may be a 8 1 way that we could work out an abbreviation, 2 once he invokes it. However, there are 3 issues, legal issues, in terms of what needs 4 to be set forth to invoke the privilege. 5 We'll face that when he invokes the 6 privilege. But for the time being, let me 7 just finish with these questions. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You graduated in 1961 and what, if 10 anything, did you do at that time, 11 professionally? 12 A In the year of 1961? 13 Q Correct. 14 A I went in the Air Force. 15 Q You enlisted? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q What rank did you have when you got 18 in to the Air Force? 19 A I was a basic airman. 20 Q How long did you stay in the Air 21 Force? 22 A Four years. 9 1 Q Did your rank change at any time 2 during those four years? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So you left in 1965? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Did you have an honorable or a 7 dishonorable discharge? 8 A I had an honorable discharge with 9 decorations. 10 Q What kind of decorations did you 11 have? 12 A I had six various decorations. 13 Some of them were Presidential unit 14 citations, I don't recall all of those. They 15 are in my record. 16 Q Tell us what you recall. 17 A Well I recall that I got a 18 Presidential unit citation and I got a number 19 of meritorious service accommodations. 20 Q What happened in 1965? 21 A I don't understand. 22 Q Well you left the Air Force, what 10 1 did you do with yourself professionally 2 speaking? 3 A I returned to my, to Meadville and 4 I got a job on the railroad. 5 Q What railroad was that? 6 A Erie Lackawana. 7 Q What was your job? 8 A I was a fireman. 9 Q How long did you remain in that 10 position? 11 A I believe until 19, I believe 1968. 12 I'm not sure about that. I think I did. I 13 think I resigned in 1968. 14 Q Was your job during that duration 15 always as a fireman? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Who was your immediate supervisor 18 on the Erie Lackawana? 19 A I really can't recall. 20 Q Do you remember anybody you worked 21 with? 22 A I had -- oh, I had an engineer 11 1 who's name was Louie Wright that I worked 2 with a lot. 3 Q Do you know where he is today? 4 A I don't know if he's living or 5 dead. 6 Q Still in Meadville? 7 A If he's alive, he's there, yeah. I 8 don't, I really don't know. 9 Q So you stayed until 1968 as a 10 fireman, correct? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q What did you do at that time, 13 professionally speaking? 14 A Well, I started at the University 15 of Pittsburgh in July of '67 and I was a 16 full-time student at the University of 17 Pittsburgh and I worked part time on the 18 railroad during '67, I believe, I'm not sure 19 about the date on that, but I think I 20 resigned in '68 when I moved to Pittsburgh. 21 Q What did you study at the 22 University of Pittsburgh? 12 1 A It was, I got a Bachelor's of Arts 2 Degree, BA. 3 Q How long did it take you to get 4 that? 5 A I graduated in '70. I got it in 6 three years. 7 Q Did you study anything at the 8 University of Pittsburgh about security 9 matters? 10 A I studied geology, history and just 11 general -- political science was my major. 12 Q My specific question, did you have 13 any courses on security; in other words, 14 doing background investigations of people? 15 A Oh, no. 16 Q What happened in 1970? 17 A I graduated. 18 Q During college, did you have any 19 employment? 20 A Yes, I worked driving an ambulance 21 and cutting meat at a market and I don't 22 know, I don't recall at the moment anything 13 1 else I did, but I think I did a few things. 2 Q Who did you drive an ambulance for? 3 A For an ambulance company called 4 Zepfel in Pittsburgh. 5 Q Can you name some of the people you 6 worked with there? 7 A Well Denny Zeckinger was the owner. 8 Q How's that spelled? 9 A I would only be guessing, I really 10 don't, I can't tell you. 11 Q Who else did you work with? 12 A I really can't recall. He had a 13 brother which I don't remember his name, but 14 I know the place was owned by a Mrs. Brown. 15 That's all I recall. 16 Q Is that business still alive in 17 Pittsburgh? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q You said you worked as a meat 20 cutter? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who did you work for? 14 1 A I worked at the, at a place called 2 the New Diamond Market down on Market Square. 3 Q What were some of the peoples' 4 names who you worked with? 5 A I, you know, I don't recall that. 6 I don't recall who the -- I worked for 7 obviously the owner. I don't know who that 8 was. I don't recall that at all. 9 Q Up to 1970, in any of your walks of 10 life, had anyone ever accused you of theft 11 before? 12 A Not that I know of. 13 Q Had anyone accused you of any 14 wrongdoing of any kind? 15 A Not that I recall, no. 16 Q Were there any issues at University 17 of Pittsburgh, ethical issues, anything like 18 that? 19 A Not that I know of. 20 Q So in 1970, what did you do 21 professionally? 22 A I started teaching in the 15 1 Pittsburgh school district as a substitute 2 teacher. 3 Q What district was that? 4 A Pittsburgh. 5 Q Did you have a title? 6 A Teacher. 7 Q How long did you stay on that job? 8 A Until January of '71, I believe. 9 Q What happened then? 10 A I moved to Texas. 11 Q Why did you move to Texas? 12 A Because I took a job with Senator 13 Muskey's staff. 14 Q Who were some of the people that 15 you worked with in that school district? 16 A I don't recall. I really don't 17 recall. 18 Q How did you get the job with 19 Senator Muskey's staff? 20 A I applied and got, well I sent out 21 resumes and got accepted. 22 Q What job did you apply for? 16 1 A Campaign manager. 2 Q What about your prior background 3 qualified you for the job of campaign 4 manager? 5 A Well, in 1968 I managed a State 6 Senate campaign of one of my professors and 7 that was some political experience that I had 8 had. 9 Q Who was that? 10 A Oh, Dr. Zavacky. 11 Q This was at the school district? 12 A No, he was a professor at the 13 University of Pittsburgh. 14 Q Who did you work with on that 15 campaign besides Dr. Zavacky? 16 A It was a guy at one of my, the only 17 name I can recall was a person that handled 18 the media was a guy by the name of Ken 19 Starr -- or, yeah, I think his name was. 20 Q Ken Starr, not the Ken Starr, was 21 it? 22 A The Ken Starr, it was at that time. 17 1 Q Right. Is this the same Ken Starr 2 that has been independent counsel for the 3 last many years in Washington, D.C? 4 A Well I don't recognize you, so. 5 Q I'm not Mr. Starr. 6 A Been a long time, I'm sorry. 7 Excuse me, everybody. 8 Q You realize I'm not Ken Starr? 9 A There was a confusion there, okay, 10 I'm sorry. 11 Q You realize I'm not Ken Starr? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Who am I? You can take the Fifth 14 if you'd like. 15 A I apologize. You're Mr. Klayman. 16 I apologize for that. 17 Q Thank you. That's all right. Do 18 we look alike? 19 A I never met him, so, I'm sorry. 20 Q Who else did you work with on that 21 campaign? 22 A I really can't recall any other, 18 1 any other names at that time. 2 Q So, in 1971 you moved to Texas, I 3 take it you got the job with Senator Muskey? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q As campaign manager? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q What were your duties and 8 responsibilities as campaign manager? 9 A I organized the State, mainly 10 organized the elected party officials and the 11 people that were friendly to the candidate. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Could I have your 13 indulgence for one second, please. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q By the way, did you win that '68 16 campaign? 17 A No. 18 Q Now you say you organized the 19 State, organized the elected party officials. 20 You had never lived in Texas 21 before, correct? 22 A No. 19 1 Q How is it without experience in 2 Texas you were able to get a job as campaign 3 manager for Senator Muskey in Texas? 4 A Obviously my resume carried it. 5 Q What other duties and 6 responsibilities did you have on the 7 campaign? 8 A I, you know, handled some fund 9 raising, that I recall, and that's about the 10 extent of it. 11 Q Were you asked to do opposition 12 research on opposing candidates? 13 MS. GILES: Objection, form. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q But the campaign did do opposition 17 research on the candidate that Senator Muskey 18 was opposing, correct? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 20 form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 20 1 MR. WEINBERG: If you know. 2 THE WITNESS: Not at my level. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I just ask, this may 4 have been inadvertent, I hope it doesn't 5 happen again, to say if you know is a way of 6 telling the witness not to know, so please 7 don't do that. It's occurred throughout this 8 litigation. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Who was Senator Muskey running 11 against at the time? 12 A It was a primary and he dropped 13 out. He dropped out at the convention. 14 Q This was a primary for President? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Who was he running against in the 17 primary? 18 A I think Senator Humphrey was 19 running, or maybe he was Vice President, I 20 believe, at the time. MacGovern was running, 21 also, '72. 22 Q Now who did you work with in Texas 21 1 on this campaign? 2 A I worked out of a law firm. 3 Q What law firm was that? 4 A It was Curtis, Crowder and Mattox. 5 Q How's that spelled? 6 A C-u-r-t-i-s, C-r-o-w-d-e-r, and 7 Mattox, M-a-t-t-o-x. 8 Q Who did you work with in the law 9 firm, if anyone, on the campaign? 10 A I didn't. I had an office there. 11 I worked out of that office and then I opened 12 up headquarters around the State. 13 Q Is that office still in existence? 14 A The lawyers are still in existence, 15 but the office is not, no. That office is 16 not. The lawyers are, but the office isn't. 17 Q Where are the lawyers located 18 today? 19 A Well, Crowder is in Dallas. I 20 don't know where Curtis is and Mattox is in 21 Austin. 22 Q I take it people in this law office 22 1 also worked on the campaign, either in a 2 volunteer capacity or through employment? 3 A No, sir, they did not. 4 Q They did observe, however, what you 5 and your staff were doing, obviously? 6 A We, they used an office and -- or 7 we used an office. That's the extent of it. 8 Q Who, if anyone, did you work with 9 from Senator Muskey's office in Washington, 10 D.C., or throughout the United States? 11 A There was an individual I worked 12 with in Washington, it was John Rigby with 13 Arnold and Porter. I don't know if he's 14 still there. I think he's still there, I'm 15 not sure. 16 Q Who else? 17 A That's, that was my contact, Mr. -- 18 Q There were other people around the 19 country, however, that you also worked with, 20 correct? 21 A Yeah, but I haven't a clue who they 22 were. 23 1 Q Do you know where Mr. Rigby is 2 today? 3 A I think he's still at Arnold and 4 Porter, I'm not sure. But I know that he was 5 with them at that time. 6 Q Now you are aware that the Muskey 7 campaign, during the primary, did research on 8 the political positions of other candidates, 9 correct? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 11 form. 12 MS. GILES: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Part of your duties and 16 responsibilities as campaign manager in Texas 17 was to profit from that research, correct? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 19 form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q To use the research? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 24 1 form. 2 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I answered that 4 question, sir, I said that was not at my 5 level. The research was not done at my 6 level. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Whose level was it done at? 9 A It was done at the headquarters 10 level up in Washington but not at my level. 11 Q Who did it at the headquarters 12 level in Washington? 13 A I don't know, sir. 14 Q You are aware that the Muskey 15 campaign did research into aspects of the 16 lives of opposition candidates? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 18 form. 19 MS. GILES: Join. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A I am not aware of that, sir. 25 1 That's an assumption on your part. I'm not 2 aware of any opposition research at my level. 3 I had no visibility to that. 4 Q How long did you stay working on 5 that campaign? 6 A I was with them until July of '72, 7 the convention. 8 Q What happened in July of '72? 9 A He actually dropped out, but the 10 organization stayed functioning until the 11 convention. At the convention he was 12 officially done and MacGovern won the 13 nomination. 14 Q Why did you want a job as campaign 15 manager? 16 A I felt that I was competent in 17 doing that kind of work. 18 Q What led you to believe that? 19 A I had some educational courses at 20 Pitt that I think qualified me for that. 21 Q What were they? 22 A Various political science classes. 26 1 Q You have a particular interest in 2 politics, I take it? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q That's something which has always 5 interested you since college? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 7 form. 8 THE WITNESS: Actually it's earlier 9 than that, sir. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How early did it start? 12 A As early as I can recall. My 13 parents told me that I needed to know about 14 Government and I needed to know about how 15 Government works and so my interest in 16 politics was as far back as I can remember. 17 Q So it was instilled in you by your 18 parents? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q You had your own interest in it? 21 A Well, yes, sir. 22 Q From your early days as a child, 27 1 you wanted to learn everything about how 2 campaigns worked, correct? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 4 form. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I was 6 interested in Government. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You were fascinated by it? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 10 form. 11 THE WITNESS: By Government, sir. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Right, but you wanted to learn how 14 politicians do their campaigns, correct? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 16 form. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q That's why you worked on the 20 campaign back in 1968 and was the campaign 21 manager for Dr. Zavacky, correct? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 28 1 form. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q That's why you wanted to work on 5 the Muskey campaign, correct? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 7 form. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I am dealing with an 10 adverse witness, I'm allowed to ask leading 11 questions. 12 Are you disputing that? 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm allowed to put 14 my objections on the record and I'm doing 15 that. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well you're certainly 17 allowed to put legitimate objections on the 18 record, but if it's just to break up the flow 19 of the deposition, that wouldn't be 20 legitimate. 21 I would like to know the basis of 22 your objection. 29 1 MR. WEINBERG: You ask your 2 questions and if I think an objection is 3 appropriate, I'll make them. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm trying to get a 5 proffer for the court to understand what was 6 wrong with that last question. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I objected as to the 8 form of the question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, well I'll 10 just state for the record that I view these 11 objections as frivolous and designed simply 12 to break the flow of the deposition and I'm 13 asking you as a matter of professional 14 courtesy to tell me why I'm wrong. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I've given you my 16 answer. You're taking up your own time now. 17 Why don't you ask your questions. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I'm going to 19 register an objection for the record. I'm 20 trying as a matter of professional courtesy, 21 sir, to give you an opportunity to tell me 22 what is wrong with my question. 30 1 If you'd like your client to leave 2 the room, that would be fine, otherwise, I 3 view it as a way to simply draw out this 4 proceeding and as a way to tell the client in 5 particular instances when he should be more 6 attentive. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm doing everything 8 I can not to interrupt the flow of your 9 questioning. If you ask a question that I 10 think is improper as to form, I'm going to 11 object, and if you have a problem with that, 12 we'll have to deal with that at some other 13 point. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm giving you an 15 opportunity to, as a matter of professional 16 courtesy, your client can leave the room for 17 a few minutes, to tell me what is wrong with 18 the form of the question. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't see any 20 profit in engaging in a debate with you. 21 You're a lawyer. You know what form is 22 proper and what form isn't. 31 1 I'm objecting to the form of the 2 question. If you want to keep asking it in 3 those forms, go ahead. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well this is why I 5 believe my question and I'm convinced my 6 question is proper as to form, so I don't 7 understand why it's necessary to take up time 8 in this deposition and disrupt the deposition 9 if you're not willing to tell me what was 10 wrong with it. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think this 12 discussion has gone on long enough. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll certify this. 14 Just let the record reflect that to the 15 extent this deposition takes more time than 16 necessary, that we'll ask the court, and we 17 have not been able to complete what we wanted 18 to complete, for more time and other 19 appropriate relief. 20 Can you read back the last 21 question? 22 (The reporter read the record as 32 1 requested.) 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In the course of working on this 4 earlier campaign for Dr. Zavacky and for 5 Edmund Muskey, you tried to learn as much as 6 you could about how campaigns operate, 7 correct? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 9 form. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You tried to learn not just issues 13 of fund raising and organization, but you 14 wanted to learn how candidates research other 15 candidates? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection -- 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q To be able to compete with them, 19 right? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 21 form. 22 THE WITNESS: I have to answer no 33 1 to that? That was not in my purview at that 2 time, sir. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q So you weren't interested in that? 5 A That was not in my purview. 6 Q I didn't ask you whether it was in 7 your purview, I asked whether you tried to 8 learn how this was done given your interest 9 in politics and campaigns? 10 A The answer to your question is no. 11 Q Why weren't you interested in that? 12 A The opposition research was not an 13 area that I was involved in at that time. 14 Q Now, what happened when Muskey shut 15 down his campaign, what, if anything, did you 16 do with regard to that particular 17 Presidential race, I take it that was 18 in 1968? 19 A Muskey was in '72. 20 Q '72, okay. What, if anything, did 21 you do? 22 A Muskey quit during New Hampshire, 34 1 which was in March, he quit active 2 campaigning and I went to work for Jim Mattox 3 on Jim Mattox campaign who was running for a 4 House seat in Texas. 5 Q Who else worked on that campaign 6 with you? 7 A Well Jim's sister and Jim's 8 brother. 9 Q What's Jim's sister's name? 10 A I don't recall at the moment. I 11 really don't and I don't recall his brother's 12 name. 13 Q What were your duties and 14 responsibilities on that campaign? 15 A I acted as his campaign manager. 16 Q What were your specific duties and 17 responsibilities? 18 A I, my main duty was to get out the 19 vote. 20 Q As part of your duties and 21 responsibilities, you did research on the 22 opposing candidate, correct? 35 1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to -- 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You, meaning the campaign. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 5 form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't feel right 7 about you calling me an adversarial person, 8 number one. 9 Number two, I believe the confusion 10 here is that the opposition research that 11 you're speaking of never really came into 12 vogue until much later on, years later. It 13 was not something that was done at that time. 14 I hope that explains to you, in 15 other words, that questioning is not going to 16 gain any ground here, sir, because it wasn't 17 done at that time. It's nothing that I was 18 involved in and it was nothing that I heard 19 of at that time. 20 It might have gone on, it might 21 have gone on in Washington, but it did not go 22 on at my level and I never engaged in that 36 1 area, sir, in any time in my entire career 2 and I hope that lays that question to rest. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What do you understand opposition 5 research to be, you say it later came in to 6 vogue, what specifically later came in to 7 vogue, what do you understand that opposition 8 research to be when it came in to vogue? 9 A I understood it to, I understand it 10 to mean digging up the information on your 11 candidate's weaknesses. 12 Q Where do you understand it came in 13 to vogue, where was it first used? 14 A I first observed it in the '70s, I 15 first learned of it when I learned of 16 telephone, telephoning voters in putting out 17 misinformation. 18 Q Where did you learn of that? 19 A I believe I learned that on the, I 20 think that was the Humphrey campaign. 21 Q Did you work on the Humphrey 22 campaign? 37 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q When did you start working on the 3 Humphrey campaign? 4 A He ran as a delegate in I think it 5 was '76. 6 Q Who did you work with on the 7 Humphrey campaign? 8 A I really don't recall. 9 Q What were your duties and 10 responsibilities on the Humphrey campaign? 11 A I was organizing people up in 12 Pennsylvania. 13 Q Where were you in Pennsylvania? 14 A In Meadville. You know, I'm really 15 flying here by the seat of my pants because I 16 don't have my resume in front of me and this 17 is over 20, 30 years, I don't really recall 18 these dates and times. 19 Q Just give us general dates. 20 A I know, but if I'm wrong on 21 anything, I know you're going to hold it 22 against me -- 38 1 Q Well, you gave your qualifier. 2 A Hold it against me. 3 Q In Meadville, who did you work 4 with? 5 A The county chairman. 6 Q Who was that? 7 A I don't remember. It might have 8 been my uncle, I'm not sure. 9 Q What is the uncle's name? 10 A It was Roy Marceca, it might have 11 been him, I'm not sure. 12 Q What was Roy Marceca's duties and 13 responsibilities on the Humphrey campaign? 14 A Well he didn't have any 15 responsibilities. He didn't work, I mean he 16 was just a political person up there. 17 Q What were your duties and 18 responsibilities? 19 A I worked with the organization that 20 came in to town, the national organization 21 that came in to town. 22 Q National organization of the 39 1 Humphrey campaign? 2 A I believe so, but I believe he was 3 only active -- I think he lost the 4 nomination, if I recall, in '76 and I think 5 Carter won that. I'm not sure about those 6 dates, though, but I think -- 7 Q Was this 1972 or 1976? 8 A Well I think you're talking 9 about '76. 10 Q '76, okay. Who did you work with 11 on Humphrey's national campaign, who were 12 some of the people? 13 A I remember working with his son. 14 He had -- his son came around. That's the 15 only person that I recall. 16 Q What was the son's name, Herbert 17 Humphrey, Junior, anything like that? 18 A I don't know. I don't recall. I 19 believe we did that in the Spring and then in 20 the Fall we worked on the Carter thing, I 21 worked on the Carter campaign. 22 Q Well who aside from Herbert 40 1 Humphrey's son did you work with in 2 Meadville? 3 A Well there was a local organization 4 there, it was a local Democratic party that I 5 worked with. 6 Q Who did you work with in the local 7 Democratic party? 8 A I don't recall those names. 9 Q Your uncle was chairman of the 10 local Democratic party? 11 A No, sir, he had a business there. 12 He worked there. He was retired and -- 13 Q Do you recall one name? 14 A Other than -- yeah, George 15 Simonetta. 16 Q What did Mr. Simonetta -- 17 A I'm sorry, it was not George 18 Simonetta, he was an attorney. It was Benny 19 Patrusso. 20 Q What did Mr. Patrusso do? 21 A I think he was chairman of the 22 organization for Humphrey. 41 1 Q Who worked under Mr. Patrusso? 2 A A lot of people, I mean -- when you 3 say work, I presume you're talking about 4 salaries. This is not a salary thing. 5 Q Well it doesn't mean salary, 6 volunteer, just names of people who 7 participated on that Humphrey campaign 8 in 1976? 9 A I do not know if those folks, if 10 that's the campaign they worked on. I 11 believe those were the folks that worked on 12 that campaign, but I'm not sure to those 13 dates and times. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's let the record 15 reflect there's a lot of talking going on in 16 the room. Mr. Gilligan and Mr. Muse left the 17 room. It's very disconcerting. 18 MS. GILES: Objection, 19 mischaracterizes the situation. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Does not 21 mischaracterize, that is a 22 mischaracterization. I'm being disconcerted. 42 1 Mr. Fitton, are you being 2 disconcerted? 3 MR. FITTON: Yes. 4 MS. GILES: Who was talking before 5 those two lawyers departed, other than 6 yourself? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: The two lawyers for 8 Mr. Marceca. 9 MS. GILES: Counsel is entitled to 10 confer with each other. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan and 12 Ms. Peterson. 13 I just ask that we kind of have an 14 orderly proceeding here. 15 MR. WEINBERG: For the record, I 16 think in tones that no one could have 17 overheard I spoke with co-counsel for no more 18 than 10 seconds, so if that disconcerted you, 19 you have a very low threshold for being 20 disconcerted. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: It was more than 10 22 seconds and that's a mischaracterization. 43 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking that 3 it stop, that's the reason for it. 4 MR. WEINBERG: If it becomes 5 appropriate in the representation of our 6 client that I need to confer with my 7 co-counsel, I'm going to do that. I'm going 8 to try to do it in a way that doesn't in any 9 way interrupt your question or the flow of 10 what you're doing here. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's why I'm 12 raising it because it did interrupt, it does 13 distract and it's very hard for me and it's 14 hard for the witness to concentrate and I 15 want to make sure the court reporter is 16 hearing what the testimony is. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Well I haven't heard 18 any indication that the court reporter is 19 having difficulty hearing the testimony, but 20 if that's true, we should all know about it 21 and we'll do whatever we have to. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand 44 1 why a simple request, if you have a problem 2 or need to discuss anything, we can take a 3 break. If you want to do that, that's fine. 4 I just ask that it not happen during the flow 5 of the testimony. 6 MR. WEINBERG: If I took a break, 7 then you'd be upset because I was 8 interrupting the flow of your questioning for 9 taking a break for 10 seconds, at the most. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well it was more than 11 that, and now we've got Mr. Gilligan and 12 Ms. Shapiro back there laughing behind me. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I 14 object to that mischaracterization. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: It's very 16 disconcerting. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm having a 18 conference here with my colleague in a very 19 hushed tone so as to not disrupt the 20 deposition, and please stop accusing us of 21 laughing when that is just not true. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: The atmosphere of 45 1 this is like a circus. 2 MS. GILES: Mr. Klayman, let's 3 proceed with the questioning. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Could you read back 5 the question, please? 6 (The reporter read the record as 7 requested.) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Can you tell us who you think 10 worked on the campaign? 11 A Sir, I'm not going to sit here and 12 guess and I cannot recall these events 30 13 years ago. 14 Q Well the reason -- 15 A So you're asking me to be specific 16 about something that I am guessing at and 17 I've guessed at some of these answers, I 18 don't appreciate you putting me in that 19 position. I cannot go back to things 30 20 years ago. I cannot recall those answers, 21 sir. 22 Q Well if you want to consult with 46 1 your attorney on this, that's fine. This is 2 discovery and if you say that I think these 3 people may have worked on the campaign, you 4 can use a qualifier, but this is discovery. 5 You're not in front of the court at 6 a trial and, consequently, we are able to get 7 who you think worked on the campaign right 8 now. If you want to consult with your 9 lawyer, that's fine, because in a proceeding, 10 as your lawyer I think will advise you, 11 discovery is not just what is relevant but 12 what may lead to relevant information. 13 So, these people may have evidence 14 which is quite relevant about your past. 15 That's why we want to get the names. 16 MR. WEINBERG: May I have your 17 indulgence for one moment. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A Sir, I cannot speculate nor do I 21 care to guess to answer that question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I just want to 47 1 put this on the record, I hope that we can 2 take a little break, maybe you can consult 3 with your client. 4 We've had a situation in this case 5 where witnesses have come in and have been 6 instructed that unless they have 100 percent 7 recall, they are not to remember. 8 We've gone through this with the 9 court. The court said that's not an 10 appropriate way to proceed. If you'd like a 11 copy of the order, I'll get you a copy of the 12 order. 13 Secondly, the reason I want to make 14 it clear what's going on in this room with 15 the consultations and with the talking and 16 with the laughing and with the meetings 17 behind me and leaving the room is because 18 you, Counsel, on behalf of Mr. Marceca, moved 19 for a protective order as to why this thing 20 should not be videotaped. Now we are unable 21 because there's no videotape to see this kind 22 of conduct and I think you're taking 48 1 advantage of the situation. 2 MR. WEINBERG: First -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that it stop -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, 5 Counsel, I have neither participated in nor 6 have I seen any laughing. We've already 7 discussed the talking. 8 Second of all, I totally agree and 9 would not take the position and would not 10 advise Mr. Marceca that if he doesn't 11 have 100 percent recall, he shouldn't answer. 12 What he's saying to you is he's not 13 going to speculate or guess and I think it's 14 entirely appropriate for a witness not to be 15 speculating and guessing on the record. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: But if he thinks that 17 he knows who worked on the campaign, he can 18 certainly give a qualifier, so. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't you -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: It's quite clear that 21 this person may not have, but we then have 22 the opportunity to at least know who it may 49 1 be for purposes of follow-up investigation. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I'll be frank with 3 you, you're using your time for this and 4 that's fine. I don't know why you're using 5 your time for this. If you want to ask about 6 who he went to grade school with, that's fine 7 with us. 8 We are sitting here and we have 9 made clear that if you ever get to questions 10 that are germane to this case, he's going to 11 invoke the Fifth Amendment. 12 If you want to ask him questions 13 that he knows the answer to or he thinks he 14 may know the answer to, he'll answer those 15 questions. 16 If you ask him questions where he 17 doesn't know the answer and all he's going to 18 be doing is guessing or speculating, then 19 he's going to tell you he's going to be 20 guessing or speculating and he's not going to 21 do that. 22 If he thinks he knows the answer or 50 1 he's not 100 percent sure, he'll tell you. 2 So, you just ask your questions and get the 3 answer. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the record is 5 clear on exactly what occurred here and for 6 the record, I don't consider this discussion 7 to be part of our time, this disruption, and 8 we hope that he will give us correct answers 9 because as the record now stands, it appears 10 that he's not going to testify unless 11 he's 100 percent certain as to what his 12 answer is. 13 MR. WEINBERG: That is not a 14 correct reading of the record and you're the 15 one who has taken this time on a pursuit that 16 isn't even founded in the record. 17 Why don't you just ask your 18 questions and listen to the answers. You can 19 ask him that question if you want so you know 20 what he's saying when he says he's guessing 21 or speculating. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: While you're making 51 1 proffers, Mr. Weinberg, can you tell me why 2 my questioning is not appropriate right now? 3 MR. WEINBERG: I've said all I 4 intend to say on the matter. 5 Why don't you ask your question? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying I'm 7 not entitled to his background? 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not saying that. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, but your 10 contempt for what I'm doing right now, I'd 11 like to have it on the record. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Whether I have 13 contempt for it or not is I don't think a 14 matter of relevance or significance in the 15 case. You're using your time. 16 Why don't you ask your question. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I want it clear 18 because obviously we've had difficulty here. 19 I'd like to try to eliminate it and move on. 20 If you have a problem with what I'm doing on 21 a legitimate basis -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: We have no 52 1 difficulty. I mean you said and I told you I 2 agree that the issue is not whether he 3 has 100 percent recall. He's not telling you 4 I have something, I have 90 percent recall 5 and I'm not going to tell you. 6 What he's telling you is he doesn't 7 know the answer to your question and he'd 8 have to guess or speculate and that's 9 entirely appropriate and that's why we've 10 taken the last 10 minutes in this discussion 11 which was entirely unnecessary and it's off 12 your time. 13 So, if you want to keep wasting 14 your time, then go ahead. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the court 16 decide whose time it is. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Mr. Marceca, do you think you know 19 who may have worked with you on this 20 campaign? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q Now you're absolutely certain? 53 1 A Sir, I gave you my best guess 2 before and that's what they were. 3 Q Now, who did you work with from the 4 national office aside from Mr. Humphrey's 5 son? 6 A I don't recall any of those people. 7 Q When during the campaign did you 8 learn that opposition research as you defined 9 it was being conducted? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 11 form. 12 THE WITNESS: I had learned within 13 a week of the election as I believe that 14 there were phone calls being made by the 15 other party to Democratic voters. That's the 16 first time I had ever seen that sort of 17 conduct. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q The other party being the 20 Republican party? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q You thought that was wrong? 54 1 A No, sir. 2 Q You thought that's fine? 3 A What I, you're asking me a broad, 4 general question about what, about the event 5 and there was, and I have an opinion about 6 what happened, but not, but your question did 7 not go to the event. 8 Q Tell me everything about what 9 happened. 10 A They were making telephone calls to 11 Democratic voters and they were putting out 12 misinformation and that's the first time I 13 had ever seen that. That I found, I did not 14 think was part of the Democratic process. 15 Q What misinformation were they 16 putting out? 17 A As I recall, they were just putting 18 out flat out lies about the candidate at that 19 time. 20 Q What were the flat out lies? 21 A I don't recall that. 22 Q Do you remember generally? 55 1 A I really don't. 2 Q It was something you found 3 shocking, correct? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Something which you found 6 disgusting? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 8 form. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Correct? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q But it also was quite effective, 13 wasn't it? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q In fact, it resulted in Humphrey 16 not getting the nomination? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 18 form. 19 THE WITNESS: No, sir. Your time 20 frame is wrong on that, sir. This was, as I 21 mentioned, it was during the general election 22 and I believe that Carter won that race, so I 56 1 don't think it helped him. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So we are talking about Carter, as 4 opposed to Humphrey? 5 A I said it was the fall of '76, as 6 best I recall, and I'm not sure of that year, 7 but I believe it was '76, in the fall of '76 8 just prior to the election that I first 9 learned of that. 10 Q You started off working with 11 Humphrey and then started to work for Carter; 12 is that the way it worked? 13 A I did not work for Carter. 14 Q So just try to explain to us how 15 Humphrey fits in to this misinformation 16 concerning Carter? 17 A Humphrey lost in the primary, I 18 don't believe -- and as I recall, I think 19 Carter got the nomination, so Humphrey was 20 out of the race in '76. 21 Q Now, the misinformation related to 22 Carter? 57 1 A The campaign involved Carter, yes, 2 sir. 3 Q It was the Republicans who were 4 putting out this misinformation on Carter? 5 A Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 6 Q You then went to work for the 7 Carter campaign? 8 A No, sir, I did not. I didn't say 9 that, either. I didn't say that I had 10 anything to do with the Carter campaign. 11 Q But you just learned that this was 12 happening? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q How did you learn this was 15 happening? 16 A I received a phone call, myself. 17 Q Who did you get the phone call 18 from? 19 A From some, from some phone bank 20 somewhere. 21 Q It was about some aspect of the 22 personal life of Jimmy Carter? 58 1 A Yes, sir, as I recall. 2 Q Does that help refresh your 3 recollection about what aspect? 4 A No, sir. You mean the content of 5 the phone call, I don't recall that. 6 Q Did it deal with his brother, 7 Billy? 8 A I don't recall that, sir. 9 Q Did it deal with his involvement 10 with the Bank of Commerce and Credit 11 International? 12 A As I recall, I don't -- I cannot 13 recall anything about the content of that 14 telephone call, sir. I just know that it was 15 an important phone call. 16 Q Did it concern about any alleged 17 involvement with Arab financial interests? 18 A Not to my recollection, sir. 19 Q It was clear that they had gathered 20 information, the Republicans, on Carter? 21 A No, sir, that's not, that's not 22 correct. 59 1 Q What's correct then? 2 A Your question is not correct. 3 Q Well, tell me what your 4 understanding was? 5 A They were putting out 6 misinformation about the candidate. 7 Q When you received that 8 misinformation, do you believe that this kind 9 of misinformation could color a voter's 10 opinion of Carter such that the voter 11 wouldn't vote for him? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q While you found this abhorrent, you 14 also thought at the time that, in fact, this 15 could be effective? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 17 form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Correct? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q So it's your opinion at the time 22 that misinformation, when spewed forth about 60 1 a candidate, would have no affect on his or 2 her reputation? 3 A At that time, sir, I was not doing 4 anything with campaigns and I did not frame 5 that in that method as to using that later on 6 or anything like that. That's an assumption 7 on your part, sir. There's no basis for 8 that, to make that assumption that I can see. 9 There was -- because I have not led you in 10 that direction. I was not involved in 11 politics. You're wrong on that questioning, 12 sir. 13 Q No, but I'm just asking you a 14 simple question, at the time that you, John 15 Q. Citizen, received this call about then to 16 become President Carter, you thought to 17 yourself this kind of misinformation could 18 damage Carter's reputation, correct? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 20 form. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 61 1 Q At that time? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q You said to yourself that if people 4 got this information that were less 5 sophisticated than me, Anthony Marceca, this 6 could affect whether they vote for President 7 Carter, correct? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 9 form. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q At that time? 12 A The answer to that is I don't know 13 that I thought, I don't recall that I thought 14 that at all. I just know that it was not a 15 palatable thing and I did not go off in 16 those, in that thought process that you're 17 leading, sir. 18 Q Well you just tell me what you 19 think, that's all I'm asking. 20 Now, were there other instances 21 where you later learned that opposition 22 research came in to vogue, as you testified 62 1 to, other than this one phone call? 2 A I didn't see that for maybe 10 3 years later when I was involved in another 4 campaign. 5 Q Did you get more than one call 6 about then Governor Carter? 7 A No, not that I can recall. 8 Q You say it came up 10 years later 9 in another campaign. How did it come up? 10 MR. WEINBERG: May I have your 11 indulgence? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Where did it come up 10 years 14 later? 15 A At this moment, I'm going to state 16 that you were notified by my counsel prior to 17 this deposition in response to all questions 18 germane to this lawsuit that I'm invoking my 19 constitutional Fifth Amendment privilege not 20 to testify. 21 Q The campaign that it came up 22 concerning was a campaign of then Governor 63 1 Bill Clinton of Arkansas? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, according to the 9 case law, Counsel, he has to make a proffer 10 as to why this evidence would tend to 11 incriminate him. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question if that was, in fact, a 14 question. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: No, it wasn't a 16 question. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Counsel, Mr. Marceca 18 is named in a referral to the independent 19 counsel. He's been sent over by name. He's 20 a named target of investigation by 21 independent counsel. 22 There have been an extraordinary 64 1 number of allegations that have floated 2 around in the press and on the Internet about 3 Mr. Marceca, most of them quite frankly 4 ridiculous and bizarre allegations, but the 5 allegations are out there. 6 He's in a vulnerable position where 7 he is a named target of a referral to the 8 independent counsel. Any question that he 9 answers that could provide a link in the 10 chain with respect to any of those 11 allegations is something that he is not 12 required to do under the Fifth Amendment and 13 that's the basis on which he is going to 14 decline to answer pursuant to his Fifth 15 Amendment right every question that is in any 16 way germane to this case or involves any of 17 those sorts of allegations of wrongdoing that 18 are floating around, bizarre as they may be, 19 about Mr. Marceca. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: What I want to 21 understand is, I'm saying that there's a 22 legal requirement or Hoffman v. United 65 1 States, 341 US 479 at 4861951 that when you 2 assert the Fifth Amendment claim, you must 3 set forth the reasons why it may tend to 4 incriminate you. You may make a proffer to 5 that affect. 6 I'd like to be able to make the 7 proffer so the court will be able to assess 8 whether or not this claim is valid or not. 9 It is not sufficient, Mr. Weinberg, to say, 10 and I understand your interest in the 11 Internet, to say that because people are 12 discussing what happened in the Clinton 13 administration and various people on the 14 Internet, that that is the basis to invoke a 15 Fifth Amendment claim. 16 There have been other targets of 17 grand jury investigations under the 18 independent counsel who have testified in 19 this case without invoking their Fifth 20 Amendment privilege, assuming it's invoked 21 properly. 22 MR. WEINBERG: We, in 1996, when 66 1 this issue came up in front of the United 2 States Senate, at that time we listed I 3 believe, unless I've miscounted, well over 20 4 specific allegations of potential criminal 5 wrongdoing that had been made about 6 Mr. Marceca in some kind of public manner or 7 another. 8 When independent counsel has a 9 referral which names Mr. Marceca, that 10 referral has not been acted on. Mr. Marceca 11 is a named target of that investigation. 12 He's got all these allegations floating 13 around. If you want the ones we listed 14 in 1996, I'll give them to you. We could 15 probably triple the list at this point. 16 The allegations we listed are on 17 the public record. We've submitted this in a 18 public filing to the United States Senate, 19 and you're welcome to take a look at it and 20 it's a very specific proffer. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: In all due respect to 22 the United States Senate, of which I am an 67 1 alumni myself, not as a Senator, but as an 2 assistant, a political proceeding is not the 3 equivalent of a court proceeding and you have 4 to invoke the grounds that you are claiming 5 the Fifth Amendment privilege question by 6 question. 7 Just to make a blanket statement 8 that these are the reasons are not 9 sufficient, it must be done based on each 10 question. 11 MR. WEINBERG: You've been asking 12 questions for however long we've been here 13 and we haven't invoked the right until this 14 point and he'll definitely do it on a 15 question-by-question basis. 16 We could make life easier, to be 17 frank, if you want to give us a list of 18 questions, we can probably stipulate which 19 ones we'll answer, but we'll invoke it on a 20 question-by-question basis. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I will not give you a 22 list of questions because obviously we have 68 1 gotten testimony here. We were led to 2 believe that we wouldn't get any testimony, 3 and so was the court. In fact, we've gotten 4 testimony and some of it is quite helpful. 5 MR. WEINBERG: We have said you 6 won't get any testimony on matters that were 7 germane to the allegations in the complaint. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, this is 9 germane. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well we need to 11 decide what is germane and what is not. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: This is germane and 13 we did get a response to the fact that 10 14 years later there was an instance where this 15 opposition research played a role. He 16 answered that question, so he would have 17 waived his Fifth Amendment privilege even if 18 he had a valid one. 19 MR. WEINBERG: This is exactly why, 20 this is exactly why he is claiming the Fifth 21 Amendment privilege to the question you just 22 asked him and will on questions of that 69 1 nature about any of these allegations because 2 you or somebody like you will claim that he's 3 just provided a link in the chain and will 4 have waived his privilege and that's exactly 5 why no matter how bizarre your questions get 6 and no matter how little foundation you have 7 for the questions, if they have allegations 8 of wrongdoing in any way by Mr. Marceca, 9 potential criminal wrongdoing, he is going to 10 claim his Fifth Amendment right. 11 We'll do it on a 12 question-by-question basis, so ask your 13 questions. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: We do not dispute 15 that you can attempt to assert the Fifth 16 Amendment privilege. But rather than making 17 accusations against me which I consider 18 scurrilous, similar to what you put in your 19 pleadings yesterday, I'm going to ask that 20 you withdraw the scurrilous accusations. 21 We'll have a 108 conference later, 22 and we'll file a motion to strike. I'm 70 1 asking that we simply follow the law here. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I wouldn't want to 3 do anything other than follow the law. 4 So, you ask your questions and we 5 will follow the law as to when to invoke the 6 privilege. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the 8 question? 9 (The reporter read the record as 10 requested.) 11 MR. KLAYMAN: What I'm asking for 12 is a proffer as to why that would tend to 13 incriminate him? 14 MR. WEINBERG: I've just given you 15 the proffer and I'll give you this filing 16 which is a public filing which may be helpful 17 to you, but I think we've made a sufficient 18 proffer. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Under what case? I 20 also cite the case of Parkersburg. 21 Wireless 156 Federal rules decision 22 at 535 quoting United States v. Melcore 71 1 Marino, wherein it states as to each question 2 to which a claim of privilege is directed, 3 the court must determine whether the answer 4 to that particular question would subject the 5 witness to the real danger of further 6 incrimination. 7 As a result, these cases have held 8 that you have to make a proffer why, in fact, 9 there is a danger of incrimination, question 10 by question. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Question by 12 question. We are prepared to do it and we 13 are fully familiar with those cases, so ask 14 your questions, question by question, we will 15 make a determination. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Read back that 17 question, please. 18 (The reporter read the record as 19 requested.) 20 MR. KLAYMAN: He's taken the Fifth. 21 What is the proffer that you wish to make, 22 Mr. Weinberg? 72 1 MR. WEINBERG: I've made the 2 proffer already. You'll find ample 3 documentation in. If you want to take time 4 out to read it, it might be helpful, in this 5 public pleading to explain why we are taking 6 the Fifth Amendment on that question. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I want it on the 8 record in this case. A political proceeding 9 up in the Senate is not this case. 10 MR. WEINBERG: What I said, and I'm 11 just repeating myself now on your time, is 12 that in this pleading which was in July 13 of 1996, almost three years ago, at that 14 time, and I didn't -- my count may be 15 approximate, but we listed over 20 specific 16 allegations, rumors of criminal wrongdoing 17 that were floating around in the public media 18 or elsewhere about potential criminal 19 wrongdoing by Mr. Marceca. 20 That would include allegations that 21 your question is related to and if you want 22 to take a look at this, I'll make it part of 73 1 the record. It's already in the public 2 record and maybe that will be helpful to you. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I'd like your 4 proffer right now, if you would. 5 Why don't you read it in to the 6 record what you consider to be relevant to 7 that last question? 8 MR. WEINBERG: I have made the 9 proffer. I don't have to identify for you 10 the particular, that would be undoing the 11 Fifth Amendment at its core. I don't have to 12 identify for you the particular way in which 13 this answer might impinge on his Fifth 14 Amendment rights and answer the question. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your position 16 that this court is bound by the Senate 17 proceedings? 18 MR. WEINBERG: That's not my 19 position that court is bound by the Senate or 20 bound by the position that the independent 21 counsel has taken which has also recognized 22 Mr. Marceca's Fifth Amendment right. 74 1 But the court is bound by the law 2 in the cases and the same cases, we've all 3 read the same cases and I'm very comfortable 4 that our proffer is more than adequate under 5 those cases. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like the proffer 7 made in this record. The Senate record is 8 not the record of this court. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well as I say, I'll 10 be happy to enter this document on the 11 record. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking you 13 specifically what in the document is relevant 14 to the question that is pending. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, on pages 5 16 and 6, among other places, we list, as I say, 17 over 20 specific allegations of potential 18 criminal wrongdoing by Mr. Marceca and 19 whenever there is a question asked that may 20 provide a link in the chain as to one of 21 those allegations, however absurd the 22 allegations may be, given his position and 75 1 given the fact that he's a target before the 2 independent counsel, we are going to invoke 3 his Fifth Amendment right. 4 If you want me to make this, I've 5 just told you the pages, mark it as an 6 exhibit and we'll make it part of the record, 7 mark it as Exhibit 2. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't agree with 9 that procedure, but I do want to see the 10 document and let's take a two-minute break 11 and we'll make copies of the document. 12 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 13 No. 2 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 (Recessed 11:16 a.m.) 16 (Reconvene 11:25 a.m.) 17 MR. WEINBERG: Let me, just so the 18 record is absolutely clear, after Marceca 19 Exhibit No. 1 was marked, and it was exactly 20 what we represented it to be, at points 21 during the, your questioning, Mr. Marceca 22 doodled and wrote things on the exhibit. 76 1 There's a coffee stain on the exhibit. 2 You can do whatever you want. You 3 can treat this as all part of the exhibit or 4 not. I just want to make sure it's clear 5 what's on the document. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, shouldn't we be 7 allowed to ask him those questions rather 8 than your saying that this happened after the 9 fact? We don't know that. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead. That's 11 fine, if you want. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: We don't know that. 13 We'll get back to that. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Just let me say one 15 more thing about the subject we were on 16 before and that is that the allegations that 17 we listed at page 5 and 6 of the document 18 that we have just provided to you in 1996 19 were allegations that were being made and 20 were floating around contemporaneous with the 21 referral of Mr. Marceca to the independent 22 counsel. 77 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your position, 2 I'm looking at page 5, where it says, "News 3 accounts regarding Mr. Marceca suggest 4 potential allegations of criminal wrongdoing 5 against Mr. Marceca in the following." It 6 then lists in certain categories items on 7 pages 5 and 6. 8 Is it your position that news 9 accounts places Mr. Marceca in a position of 10 potential incrimination? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Our position is that 12 he is, has been named in a referral to the 13 independent counsel. The referral was for 14 purposes of a criminal investigation, that 15 there are allegations that have been made by 16 a number of people. The fact that they were 17 in the news media doesn't mean that they were 18 necessarily made by news people of criminal 19 conduct by Mr. Marceca. 20 The referral to the independent 21 counsel specifically says whether Mr. Marceca 22 committed a violation of 18 USC 1001 or any 78 1 other Federal criminal law. It was a very 2 broad referral without any boundaries with 3 respect to Federal law. 4 These are all allegations that have 5 been made against Mr. Marceca by a variety of 6 sources and Mr. Marceca has to take those 7 seriously and is not going to waive his Fifth 8 Amendment rights with respect to anything 9 that could provide a link in the chain with 10 respect to that. 11 That request, although it's not 12 binding on anybody, I should say that's been 13 honored by both the United States Senate and 14 by the independent counsel's office. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Has Marceca learned 16 that he is a target of the grand jury 17 investigation with Ken Starr? 18 MR. WEINBERG: I think he's by 19 definition the target when he is the named, 20 he is the named person in a referral. In 21 other words, this wasn't some kind of general 22 referral. He was sent over by name a 79 1 referral specifically. 2 Here, let me read it. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: But he's not been 4 formally notified by Ken Starr or his office, 5 Mr. Weinberg? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I think that it's 7 not, what the grand jury does or doesn't do 8 is not something that's appropriate for you 9 to inquire into in this deposition. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well it's appropriate 11 because we need to know whether his testimony 12 has any risk of incriminating him. I mean if 13 he's not a named subject or a target, then I 14 don't see how it would have that degree of 15 risk. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well I think we've 17 made our proffer and if you believe our 18 proffer is not adequate, you should take it 19 up with the court. We can brief the issue, 20 and then the court will decide. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: The burden is on the 22 party asserting the Fifth Amendment privilege 80 1 to move the court to be able to assert it. 2 You have not filed a brief with the 3 court, correct? 4 MR. WEINBERG: We have asserted the 5 privilege as we've notified everybody, 6 including the court, we were going to do in 7 this deposition. If you want to take further 8 steps with respect to our assertion of the 9 privilege, then, you know, take it up with 10 the court. You're just taking up your time 11 right now. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well the court will 13 decide whose time is which. I'm trying to 14 get a clarity for the court on the record as 15 to what is occurring. 16 Whether or not you've advised the 17 court you're taking the Fifth, the case law 18 is clear that you must assert question by 19 question the basis upon which that question 20 may tend to incriminate him. 21 I'm asking you as his lawyer to 22 tell me what in here on pages 5 and 6 and 81 1 I'll ask that this document be Marked 2 Exhibit 2, it's a memorandum of Anthony B. 3 Marceca regarding Fifth Amendment issues of 4 July 24, 1996, before the United States 5 Senate Committee on the judiciary by Robert 6 M. Weinberg, which is yourself, and Robert F. 7 Muse, both representing Mr. Marceca here 8 today. 9 What is it, if anything, in this 10 document that you wish to assert in not 11 responding to the outstanding question? 12 MR. WEINBERG: I'll stand on the 13 proffer that we've made. We have no 14 obligation to tell you what specific, to end 15 up giving you the very testimony that the 16 Fifth Amendment protects Mr. Marceca from 17 having to give to invoke the Fifth Amendment. 18 I'll stand on the proffer. If you 19 don't think the proffer is adequate, then you 20 know what your recourse is. I think you 21 ought to go ahead with your questioning. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it is our 82 1 position that it's grossly inadequate. I 2 wanted to get your clarified, your position. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Mr. Marceca, in terms of your 5 representation before the Senate which gave 6 rise to Exhibit 2, who was paying for your 7 legal fees? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Let me have your 9 indulgence for just a minute. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Just let the record 11 reflect the consultation took several 12 minutes. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Go ahead, you can respond. 15 A Nobody is paying my legal fees. 16 I'm paying myself. 17 Q Have you actually paid any money 18 thus far in the Senate proceeding and in this 19 proceeding here today? 20 A A moment to confer. 21 (Witness conferred with counsel) 22 THE WITNESS: Not directly to this. 83 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What do you mean? 3 A Not concerning this motion or this 4 action. 5 Q The case you're here on today? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Have you paid money with regard to 8 any other proceedings? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Any other 10 proceedings in his life or any other 11 proceedings, why don't you make it specific? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Any proceedings with regard to the 14 matters discussed in Exhibit 2. 15 A Let me see Exhibit 2. What page 16 were those, sir? What are you talking about? 17 Q I'm saying the whole exhibit. 18 A No, oh, no, the answer is no. 19 Q You have not paid any moneys 20 concerning those matters? 21 A As it relates to this, no. 22 Q Has someone told you that they will 84 1 provide the moneys to you to pay your legal 2 fees in this case or any other case involving 3 this whole Filegate, FBI file matter? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you know where you're going to 6 get the money? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Where will you get it? 9 A From my retirement. 10 Q Now, in terms of, there came a 11 point in time, did there not, when you 12 started to work at the White House, correct? 13 A As I have previously stated, I am 14 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 15 response to all questions germane to the 16 allegations in this lawsuit. 17 Q Under what basis did you start to 18 work at the White House? 19 A As I have previously stated, I am 20 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 21 response to all questions germane to this 22 lawsuit. 85 1 Q You began your work at the White 2 House for the purpose of obtaining FBI 3 materials on Republicans to smear them with, 4 correct? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 6 of the question. I object to the absence of 7 any factual basis for the question. 8 MS. GILES: Join in the objection. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I join that. 10 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 11 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 12 privilege in response to all questions 13 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You were assigned to the White 16 House to gather FBI materials to smear 17 Republicans by Hillary Rodham Clinton, 18 correct? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 20 of the question. Mr. Klayman, I object in 21 particular because you have absolutely no 22 factual basis whatsoever to pose that 86 1 question. I believe you know that. 2 I will object to all questions on 3 that basis that are worded in a similar 4 fashion. I also object to the form of the 5 question. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 7 objection. 8 THE WITNESS: As I have stated 9 previously, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 10 privilege in response to all questions 11 germane to this lawsuit. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You were assigned to the White 14 House to help gather and review FBI materials 15 on Republicans at the request of William 16 Jefferson Clinton? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 18 of the question. I object, again, to 19 Counsel's posing that question without any 20 factual basis for doing so. 21 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 22 Objection to lack of foundation. 87 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 2 objections. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Are you invoking any privilege? 5 A As I have previously stated, I am 6 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 7 response to all questions germane to the 8 allegations in this lawsuit. 9 Q You have knowledge, do you not, 10 that you, Anthony Marceca, and others at the 11 White House, obtained FBI data on Republicans 12 and used that data by releasing it in to the 13 public domain to try to harm the reputations 14 of those Republicans? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 16 of the question. I object to the question 17 being posed without any factual basis 18 whatsoever. 19 MS. GILES: Join in that objection. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 21 objection. 22 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 88 1 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 2 privilege in response to all questions 3 germane to this, the allegations in this 4 lawsuit. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q It was not within the scope of your 7 employment in working at the White House 8 during the Clinton administration to gather 9 FBI materials, to review FBI materials and to 10 release FBI materials in to the public domain 11 on Republicans, correct? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 15 objection. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You have knowledge that it was not 22 within the scope of employment of Craig 89 1 Livingstone to participate in gathering FBI 2 material on Republicans, reviewing it and 3 releasing it in to the public domain for the 4 purpose of harming the reputation of those 5 Republicans, correct? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Join in that 9 objection. 10 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 11 Objection to lack of foundation. 12 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 13 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 14 privilege in response to all questions 15 germane to this lawsuit. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Same question with regard to 18 William Kennedy? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. 21 MS. GILES: Same objections. 22 MS. COHEN: I join in those 90 1 questions. 2 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 3 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 4 privilege in response to all questions 5 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Same question with regard to 8 Bernard Nussbaum? 9 MS. COHEN: I object to the form of 10 that question, lack of foundation. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Join in the 12 objection. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Join in the 14 objection. 15 MS. GILES: Join. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Same question with regard to Vince 22 Foster? 91 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 3 MS. GILES: Same objections. 4 MS. COHEN: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 6 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 7 privilege in response to all questions 8 germane to this lawsuit. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Same question with regard to Betsy 11 Pond? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 13 MS. GILES: Same objections. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Join. 15 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 16 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 17 privilege in response to all questions 18 germane to this lawsuit. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Same question with regard to Debra 21 Gorham? 22 MS. GILES: Same objections. 92 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 2 MS. COHEN: Same objections. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to this lawsuit. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Same question with regard to 10 Stephen Waudby? 11 MS. GILES: Same objections. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 13 MS. COHEN: Same observations. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 15 THE WITNESS: As I previously 16 stated, I'm invoking my Fifth Amendment 17 privilege in response to all questions 18 germane to this lawsuit. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Same question with regard to Steve 21 Neuwirth? 22 MS. GILES: Same objections. 93 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 2 MS. COHEN: Same observations. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to this lawsuit. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Same question with regard to Bruce 10 Lindsay? 11 MS. GILES: Same objections. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 14 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 15 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 16 privilege in response to questions germane to 17 this lawsuit. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Same question with regard to Jane 20 Sherburne? 21 MS. GILES: Same objections. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 94 1 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 2 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 3 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 4 privilege in response to all questions 5 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Same questions with regard to Jack 8 Quinn? 9 MS. GILES: Same objections. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 12 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 13 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 14 privilege in response to all questions 15 germane to this lawsuit. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Same question with regard to Joel 18 Klein? 19 MS. GILES: Same objections. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 22 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 95 1 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 2 privilege in response to all questions 3 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Same question with regard to Maggie 6 Williams? 7 MS. GILES: Same objections. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 10 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 11 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 12 privilege in response to all questions 13 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Same question with regard to Cheryl 16 Mills? 17 MS. GILES: Same objections. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 20 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 21 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 22 privilege in response to all questions 96 1 germane to this lawsuit. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Same question with regard to Chris 4 Cerf? 5 MS. GILES: Same objections. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 8 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 9 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 10 privilege in response to all questions 11 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Same question with regard to Cliff 14 Sloan? 15 MS. GILES: Same objection. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. 18 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 19 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 20 privilege in response to all questions 21 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 97 1 Q Same question with regard to Beth 2 Nolan? 3 MS. GILES: Same objections. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 6 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 7 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 8 privilege in response to all questions 9 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Same question with regard to Nathan 12 Marceca? 13 MS. GILES: Same objections. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objections. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to the allegations of this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Same question with regard to Mary 22 Anderson? 98 1 MS. GILES: Same objection. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objection. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q All of the people that I've just 10 mentioned you have knowledge that they worked 11 at the White House during the Clinton 12 administration? 13 A As I have previously stated, I am 14 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 15 response to all questions germane to the 16 allegations in this lawsuit. 17 Q With regard to all the persons I've 18 just mentioned, you have knowledge that they 19 had access to FBI background summary 20 materials when they worked at the White House 21 during the Clinton administration? 22 A As I have previously stated, I am 99 1 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 2 response to all questions germane to the 3 allegations in this lawsuit. 4 Q With regard to all of the persons 5 that I have named, you are aware that they 6 were not hired to gather information through 7 FBI background materials to use on 8 Republicans and perceived political 9 adversaries for the purposes of harming their 10 reputation in the public domain? 11 A That question is incoherent, could 12 you please rephrase that. I couldn't 13 understand what you were asking. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Please read it back. 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 18 the question. Object to the question being 19 posed without any factual basis. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 21 objection. 22 MS. COHEN: I join in that 100 1 objection. 2 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 3 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 4 privilege in response to all questions 5 germane to this lawsuit. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You are aware that all of the 8 persons that I named have worked for the 9 Clinton administration? 10 A As I have previously stated, I am 11 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 12 response to all questions germane to the 13 allegations in this lawsuit. 14 Q You are aware that Lisa Wetzl, Ed 15 Hughes and Jonathan Denbo have worked for the 16 Clinton administration at the White House? 17 A As I have previously stated, I'm 18 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 19 response to all questions germane to the 20 allegations in this lawsuit. 21 Q You are aware that they were not 22 hired to gather information through FBI 101 1 summary background reports to use against 2 Republicans and others to smear their 3 reputations in the public domain? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 5 the question. I object to the question being 6 posed without any factual basis. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 8 objection. 9 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 10 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 11 privilege in response to all questions 12 germane to this lawsuit. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You are aware that Jonathan Denbo, 15 Lisa Wetzl and Ed Hughes did gain access to 16 FBI summary materials during their period of 17 employment at the White House to use against 18 Republicans and others to smear their 19 reputations in the public domain? 20 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 21 Objection as to lack of foundation. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objection. 102 1 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection. 2 MS. COHEN: I join. 3 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 4 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 5 privilege in response to all questions 6 germane to this lawsuit. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Do you know a George 9 Stephanopoulos? 10 A As I have previously stated, I am 11 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 12 response to all questions germane to this 13 lawsuit. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: How does that tend to 15 incriminate him, Mr. Weinberg? 16 MR. WEINBERG: I made the proffer 17 already. Why don't you go ahead and ask the 18 question. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Do you know a Harold Ickes? 21 A As I have previously stated, I am 22 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 103 1 response to all questions germane to the 2 allegations in this lawsuit. 3 Q Both Mr. Stephanopoulos and Harold 4 Ickes participated in obtaining FBI 5 background materials on Republicans and 6 others while they worked at the White House 7 during the Clinton administration for the 8 purposes of harming the reputation of 9 Republicans and others? 10 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 11 Object to lack of foundation. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Join in the 13 objection. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 15 objection. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You have knowledge about the 22 question I just asked, don't you? 104 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Join in the 4 objection. 5 MS. GILES: Join in the objection. 6 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 7 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 8 privilege in response to all questions 9 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know James Carville? 12 A As I have previously stated, I am 13 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 14 response to all questions germane to the 15 allegations in this lawsuit. 16 Q Have you ever worked with James 17 Carville? 18 A As I have previously stated, I am 19 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 20 response to all questions germane to this 21 lawsuit. 22 Q Do you have knowledge that James 105 1 Carville obtained or had access to FBI 2 background summary material in conjunction 3 with the White House to use against 4 Republicans and other perceived political 5 adversaries for the purposes of harming their 6 reputation in the public domain? 7 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 8 Objection as to the lack of any factual 9 foundation. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 11 objection, those objections. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Join in the 13 objection. 14 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 15 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 16 privilege in response to all questions 17 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you have knowledge that the 20 White House worked in conjunction with its 21 counsel at Williams and Connolly in employing 22 private investigators which had access to FBI 106 1 background material for the purposes of using 2 that FBI material to smear Republicans and 3 perceived political adversaries by releasing 4 that information in to the public domain? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 6 of the question. I object further that it 7 lacks any factual foundation whatsoever and I 8 invite counsel to withdraw the question. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You can respond. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 12 objections. 13 MS. COHEN: I join in those 14 objections. 15 MS. GILES: Join in the objections. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to this lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Do you know an individual by the 22 name of Terry Lenzner? 107 1 A As I have previously stated, I am 2 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 3 response to all questions germane to this 4 lawsuit. 5 Q Do you know an investigative firm 6 by the name of IGI International? 7 A As I have previously stated, I am 8 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 9 response to all questions germane to this 10 lawsuit. 11 Q Do you have information that Terry 12 Lenzner and IGI are employed by Williams and 13 Connolly on behalf of the President and 14 Mrs. Clinton? 15 A As I have previously stated, I am 16 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 17 response to all questions germane to the 18 allegations in this lawsuit. 19 Q Do you have knowledge that Terry 20 Lenzner and IGI employ former officials of 21 the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 22 A As I have previously stated, I am 108 1 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 2 response to all questions germane to the 3 allegations in this lawsuit. 4 Q Do you have knowledge that one of 5 the former officials employed by Terry 6 Lenzner and IGI of the Federal Bureau of 7 Investigations is Mr. Larry Potts? 8 A As I have previously stated, I am 9 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 10 response to all questions germane to the 11 allegations in the lawsuit. 12 Q Do you have information that former 13 FBI officials employed by Terry Lenzner and 14 IGI have obtained FBI background materials on 15 Republicans and perceived adversaries of the 16 Clinton administration through their contacts 17 with the FBI and used that information to 18 effect the reputations of these Republicans 19 and perceived political adversaries by 20 releasing that information in to the public 21 domain? 22 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 109 1 Objection as to the lack of any factual 2 foundation. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 4 objections. 5 MS. COHEN: I join in those 6 objections. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I join in those 8 objections. 9 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 10 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 11 privilege in response to all questions 12 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Have you read any depositions from 15 any legal proceedings in preparation for this 16 deposition here today? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Indulge me a moment. 18 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 19 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 20 privilege in response to all questions 21 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 110 1 Q You, Mr. Marceca, have had 2 conversations with Hillary Rodham Clinton 3 where you have discussed obtaining FBI 4 background summary materials on Republicans 5 and perceived adversaries of the Clinton 6 administration for the purposes of using that 7 information to harm their reputations by 8 releasing it in to the public domain? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 10 of the question. I object the question is 11 posed without any factual basis. 12 MS. GILES: Join in that objection. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 14 objections. 15 MS. COHEN: I join those. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You, Mr. Marceca, have information 21 that Hillary Rodham Clinton hired Craig 22 Livingstone to work at the White House? 111 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. I object to the question 3 being posed without a factual basis. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 5 objections. 6 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 7 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 8 privilege in response to all questions 9 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Same question with regard to 12 William Kennedy? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 15 objection. 16 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 17 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 18 privilege in response to all questions 19 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Same question with regard to 22 Bernard Nussbaum? 112 1 MS. COHEN: Objection as to form. 2 MS. GILES: I don't understand the 3 question, does the question relate back to 4 Mrs. Clinton or? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I can read it over 6 and over again, but I don't think that's a 7 proper objection. Just say you don't 8 understand the question. 9 MS. GILES: Could the court 10 reporter read back the question, please? 11 (The reporter read the record as 12 requested.) 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Does that help you? 14 MS. GILES: Yes, thank you. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A As I have previously stated, I am 18 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 19 response to all questions germane to the 20 allegations in the lawsuit. 21 Q Same questions with regard to Vince 22 Foster? 113 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 3 objection. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Same question with regard to Betsy 10 Pond? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Join. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: I also object to the 14 question being posed without a factual basis. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Join in that 16 objection. 17 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 18 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 19 privilege in response to all questions 20 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Same question with regard to Debra 114 1 Gorham? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 3 the question and object to the absence of a 4 factual basis for that question. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Join in those 6 objections. 7 MS. GILES: Join in those 8 objections. 9 MS. COHEN: Join in those 10 objections. 11 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 12 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 13 privilege in response to all questions 14 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You have information that Hillary 17 Rodham Clinton hired these persons, Craig 18 Livingstone, William Kennedy, Bernard 19 Nussbaum, Vince Foster, Betsy Pond and Debra 20 Gorham for the purpose of participating in 21 concerted activity to obtain FBI background 22 materials on Republicans and perceived 115 1 adversaries of the Clinton administration for 2 the purposes of using that FBI background 3 summary material to harm their reputations by 4 releasing that information in to the public 5 domain? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 7 of the question. I object to the question 8 being posed without any factual basis. 9 MS. GILES: Same objections. 10 MS. COHEN: I join in those 11 objections. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 13 objections, also. 14 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 15 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 16 privilege in response to all questions 17 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you know Linda Tripp? 20 A As I have previously stated, I am 21 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 22 response to all questions germane to the 116 1 allegations in the lawsuit. 2 Q Have you worked with Linda Tripp? 3 A As I have previously stated, I am 4 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 5 response to all questions germane to the 6 allegations in the lawsuit. 7 Q Have you reviewed the testimony 8 which Linda Tripp provided in this lawsuit, 9 Alexander v. FBI? 10 A I have previously stated, I am 11 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 12 response to all questions germane to the 13 allegations of the lawsuit. 14 Q In reviewing that testimony that 15 Linda Tripp has provided in this lawsuit, 16 Alexander v, FBI, you found nothing in that 17 testimony which was inaccurate, misleading or 18 false? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 20 of the question, to the lack of a factual 21 basis for asking the question. 22 MS. GILES: Join in the objection. 117 1 MS. COHEN: I join. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Join in the 3 objection. 4 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 5 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 6 privilege in response to all questions 7 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You have worked with Linda Tripp, 10 correct? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 12 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 13 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 14 privilege in response to all questions 15 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Her reputation at the White House 18 was one of honesty? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 20 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 21 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 22 privilege in response to all questions 118 1 germane to the allegations in this lawsuit. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Based on your experience in working 4 with Ms. Linda Tripp, you know her to be 5 honest? 6 A As I have previously stated, I am 7 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 8 response to all questions germane to the 9 allegations in this lawsuit. 10 Q You know of no instance where Linda 11 Tripp has lied? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 13 of the question and to the lack of a factual 14 basis for asking the question. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Join in the 16 objection. 17 MS. GILES: Join in the objection. 18 MS. COHEN: Join in the objections. 19 THE WITNESS: As I have previously 20 stated, I am invoking my Fifth Amendment 21 privilege in response to all questions 22 germane to the allegations in the lawsuit. 119 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like to break for 2 lunch at this time. 3 (Whereupon, at 12:00 p.m., a 4 luncheon recess was taken.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 120 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:07 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 ANTHONY B. MARCECA 5 was recalled as a witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Resuming at 1:07. Mr. Marceca, I'm 11 going to show you what I'll ask the court 12 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 13 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 14 No. 3 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q This is Exhibit 3. This is a 18 subpoena duces tecum which has been issued in 19 this case. It attaches a document request 20 called schedule of documents. 21 Did you receive this subpoena duces 22 tecum requiring your appearance here today, 121 1 Mr. Marceca? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q When did you receive it? 4 A This particular document? 5 Q Yes. 6 A The day, exact date I can't tell 7 you, but it was within the last week or so. 8 Q Have you actually seen this before? 9 A Yes, sir, I've read it. 10 Q When did you read it? 11 A I've read it a couple of times. 12 The last time I read it was two days ago. 13 Q You received it two days ago? 14 A No, sir, I said the last time I 15 read it was two days ago. 16 Q It requires the production of 17 documents and there are 22 different document 18 requests. 19 Did you search for the documents 20 requested in this subpoena? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Let me just make a 22 statement for the record. As you know, 122 1 Counsel, all of these documents were -- 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Before you go 3 further, I'd like to get the witness to 4 respond to the question. This does not call 5 for a lawyer's response. I just asked him, 6 if you make a statement, you're going to 7 taint the testimony. I asked him whether he 8 searched for these documents. 9 MR. WEINBERG: The search for these 10 documents were done -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I object. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Was conducted by 13 lawyers. They were gathered by lawyers. 14 They were produced by lawyers, and they were 15 provided to people working for you three 16 weeks ago, and they were, and it was 17 following an order that dealt in part with 18 the problem of making sure that the 19 production of documents, that the act of 20 producing the documents would not be 21 considered a waiver of the Fifth Amendment. 22 All the documents were provided. 123 1 You had two attorneys, one over at Mr. Muse's 2 office that went through the documents. 3 Everything that you wanted copied was 4 produced to you. We can represent to you as 5 consistent with the stipulation -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Please do not give 7 him testimony. I object. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Consistent with the 9 stipulation -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I object. 11 MR. WEINBERG: That we provided 12 between you and us, signed by both of us, 13 that all the documents were produced, and we 14 cannot for the very reasons that we entered 15 into that stipulation, the act of producing 16 those documents you agreed with us was not to 17 be considered a waiver of those Fifth 18 Amendment rights, so I am making 19 representations and not Mr. Marceca. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I would ask 21 that you refrain from making any more 22 statements on the record. We do have 124 1 communications between us, we have motions, 2 we have court orders. The record is very 3 clear. 4 I'm asking about this subpoena, so 5 I'd like to be able to ask my questions. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you ever looked for documents 8 in response to this subpoena? 9 A As I have previously stated, I am 10 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 11 response to all questions germane to the 12 allegations named in this lawsuit. 13 Q You are aware that this subpoena 14 which you say you received in the last week 15 or so is different from an earlier document 16 request that was served by Judicial Watch on 17 your counsel? 18 A As I have previously stated, I am 19 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 20 response to all questions germane to the 21 allegations in the lawsuit. 22 Q What is it about my asking you 125 1 whether this subpoena is different from a 2 prior document request which causes you to 3 tend to incriminate yourself? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Klayman, we went 5 through this. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you please allow 7 him to respond? 8 MR. WEINBERG: We'll respond when 9 I'm through making my statement. 10 We worked out, you did, with us, 11 how we would get you documents. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask the witness 13 to leave the room, please? Leave the room, 14 Mr. Marceca. 15 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 16 (Witness excused) 17 MR. WEINBERG: There's nothing 18 about my statement -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, excuse me. 20 MR. WEINBERG: As we discussed with 21 you at some length some time ago in 22 connection with your initial document 126 1 request, the act of production of documents 2 has a testimonial aspect to it which is 3 protected by the Fifth Amendment and we 4 worked out with you a means for getting you 5 and believe me, we got you all of the 6 documents. There was nothing left to get. 7 But whatever we did, we did 8 pursuant to that stipulation and order that 9 was entered. 10 My client is not going to waive his 11 Fifth Amendment right by getting into issues 12 of what documents he was in possession of, 13 what he did with respect to the documents or 14 what he did in response to any request for 15 documents. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I didn't even 17 get to that point yet and I'm not in any way 18 going to assert whether I agree with your 19 position or not, and my asking these 20 questions would result in a waiver, I'm not 21 asserting that. 22 But I do want to find out whether 127 1 he got this subpoena and searched for 2 documents and that doesn't even get to the 3 issue of what documents exist. You're 4 blocking him from answering that. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well he's not going 6 to answer those questions for the reasons I 7 stated. I mean I can represent to you as I 8 have that you have the documents. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: The record is clear 10 that this subpoena requests documents that 11 are in addition to documents that we 12 requested earlier in our request to produce 13 and I want to be able to ask him the question 14 whether he knows that and that's not 15 incriminating, either. 16 MR. WEINBERG: You have the 17 documents, so, you can ask him whatever you 18 want. I've told you what our position is 19 going to be. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine, it's helpful to 21 get your position because we will be going to 22 the court on this and other issues. 128 1 MR. MUSE: Shall we bring the 2 witness back? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: As we proceed in this 4 case, Mr. Weinberg, there are a number of 5 roadblocks that you're throwing up which go 6 far beyond any legitimate claim of Fifth 7 Amendment privilege, and I ask that you not 8 interject by giving the witness testimony. 9 These are innocuous questions and 10 for you to claim that him answering these 11 questions in and of themselves whether he 12 searched for documents pursuant to the 13 subpoena, without even identifying what they 14 are in any way incriminates him shows that 15 you're invoking the privilege improperly. 16 MR. WEINBERG: It isn't in and of 17 itself. I know you're well aware of what the 18 act of production issue is and we've gone 19 over it with you, counsel to counsel, at 20 great length prior to this. 21 I know you're aware of what the 22 issues are. I'm sure you understand why it 129 1 is we are taking the Fifth Amendment with 2 respect to these questions. If you want to 3 ask the questions, those are the answers 4 you'll get. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand your 6 position. We can bring him back. 7 (Witness returned) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Mr. Marceca, just so we're clear on 10 the record, did you search for documents in 11 response to this subpoena which is Exhibit 3? 12 A As I have previously stated, I am 13 invoking my Fifth Amendment privilege in 14 response to all questions germane to the 15 allegations in the lawsuit. 16 Q You can state, we had a discussion 17 with counsel during lunch, you can say I 18 invoke the Fifth. 19 MR. WEINBERG: As long as the 20 record reflects that when he says that, he's 21 referring to his statement as set forth in 22 Exhibit 1, that's fine and that's all you 130 1 need to do. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Is that what you wish to do, 4 Mr. Marceca? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I mean you can't tell 6 him what he's referring to, he's the witness. 7 MR. MUSE: We discussed that with 8 you. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well as long as he 10 understands that's what he's doing, that's 11 fine. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Marceca wishes 13 to stick with what he's been saying, so 14 that's what we'll do. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: For what purpose, to 16 run out the clock? 17 MR. WEINBERG: He just feels more 18 comfortable making sure that his testimony 19 won't be misunderstood or manipulated in any 20 way. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: That is an example as 22 to how this proceeding is not being used 131 1 correctly, Mr. Weinberg, because I said that 2 as long as he understands what you just said 3 to him, he can say I invoke the Fifth and 4 that saves time. I just wanted to make sure 5 the witness understood. 6 That's something you should have 7 advised him. I'm taking the extra step as a 8 matter of professional courtesy to ask 9 Mr. Marceca if he knew that that was your 10 position. 11 MR. WEINBERG: How about that he 12 says, so that everybody will feel and that 13 Mr. Marceca will feel comfortable how about 14 if he says I invoke my constitutional right? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: He can say whatever 16 he wants to say. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Would that be 18 adequate as far as you're concerned, to 19 invoke the substance, as long as it's clear 20 that he's invoking the Fifth Amendment. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: He can say I invoke 22 my metaphysical rights, I don't care. 132 1 MR. WEINBERG: Just say I'm 2 invoking my constitutional right and he'll be 3 referring to what's on that page in 4 Exhibit 1, right? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. If he 6 understands that. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Do you understand that? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Do you have documents which are 11 responsive to the subpoena Exhibit 3? 12 A I am invoking my constitutional 13 Fifth Amendment privilege. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Constitutional 15 right. 16 THE WITNESS: Constitutional right 17 not to testify. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Off the record a 19 second. 20 (Discussion off the record) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Are you aware that this subpoena 133 1 requests documents in addition to documents 2 previously requested from you? 3 A I am invoking my constitutional 4 right. 5 Q When you left the White House 6 employment, did you take documents from the 7 White House? 8 A I am invoking my constitutional 9 right. 10 Q Did you seek any clearance from 11 White House officials or personnel to take 12 documents with you? 13 A I am invoking my constitutional 14 right. 15 Q Do you know whether or not Harold 16 Ickes took documents which bear on the 17 obtaining of FBI files by the White House? 18 A I am invoking my constitutional 19 right. 20 Q Do you know whether Mack McClarty 21 took documents which bear on the obtaining of 22 FBI materials by the White House? 134 1 MS. GILES: Objection to the lack 2 of foundation. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 4 objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 6 constitutional right. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Do you know that Harold Ickes and 9 Mack McClarty have left the White House? 10 A I am invoking my constitutional 11 privilege. 12 Q Do you know what Mr. Ickes and 13 Mr. McClarty's positions were at the White 14 House? 15 A I am invoking my constitutional 16 privilege. 17 Q You are aware that Hillary Rodham 18 Clinton has documents in her possession 19 bearing on the obtaining of FBI materials on 20 Republicans and others? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 22 of the question. I object further that the 135 1 question is posed without any factual basis. 2 MS. GILES: Join in the objection. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 4 objection. 5 MS. COHEN: I join in those 6 objections. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that Hillary Rodham 11 Clinton has actually reviewed during her 12 tenure as First Lady of the United States FBI 13 background materials on Republicans and 14 others? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 16 of the question. I object further that the 17 question is posed without any factual basis. 18 MS. GILES: Join the objection. 19 MS. COHEN: Join the objection. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 21 objections. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 136 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In fact, you took her such 4 materials, correct? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 6 of the question. I object further that the 7 question is posed without any factual basis. 8 MS. GILES: Same objections. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 10 objections. 11 MS. COHEN: I join those 12 objections. 13 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q In fact, Craig Livingstone took her 17 such materials, correct? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 19 of the question. I object further that the 20 question is posed without any factual basis. 21 MS. GILES: Join. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 137 1 objections. 2 MS. COHEN: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q In fact, you visited the White 7 House residence on a number of occasions with 8 FBI background summary materials and other 9 background, and other FBI materials to give 10 to Mrs. Clinton? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 12 of the question. I object that the question 13 is posed without any factual basis. 14 MS. GILES: Join the objections. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 16 objections. 17 MS. COHEN: Join in those 18 objections. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q In fact, you are aware that Craig 21 Livingstone took FBI background summary 22 materials and other background, and other FBI 138 1 materials on Republicans and others to 2 Mrs. Clinton in the White House residence? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 4 of the question and I object on the grounds 5 that there's no factual basis for the 6 question. 7 MS. GILES: Join the objections. 8 MS. COHEN: Join the objections. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 10 objections. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q In fact, on one or more cases, in 15 fact, on one or more occasions you asked your 16 son, Nathan Marceca, to take FBI materials on 17 Republicans to Mrs. Clinton in the White 18 House residence? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 20 of the question. I object that there's no 21 factual basis for the question. 22 MS. GILES: Join the objection. 139 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 2 objections. 3 MS. COHEN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll 7 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 4. 8 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 9 No. 4 was marked for 10 identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Mr. Marceca, Exhibit 4 are White 13 House WAVES logs, you know what WAVES logs 14 are; don't you? 15 A I am invoking my constitutional 16 privilege, sir. 17 Q WAVES logs are prepared by the U.S. 18 Secret Service, correct? 19 A I invoke my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q WAVES logs show entry by 22 individuals in certain parts of the White 140 1 House, correct? 2 A I am invoking my constitutional 3 privilege. 4 Q Look at page 1 of Exhibit 4, that's 5 Bates Number 4954, an entry, second entry 6 dated December 7, 1993, Craig Livingstone, 7 visitee POTUS, POTUS means the President, 8 correct? 9 A I am invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q It shows the room the White House 12 residence, correct? 13 A I am invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 Q You are aware that on that date as 16 reflected by this entry, that Craig 17 Livingstone took to Mr. and Mrs. Clinton FBI 18 materials on Republicans who are not 19 hold-over employees and not political 20 appointees? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 22 of the question. I object that there's no 141 1 factual basis for the question. 2 MS. GILES: I join in the 3 objections. 4 MS. COHEN: I join in the 5 objections. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 7 objections. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know who Ellen Livingstone 12 is? 13 A I am invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Just by way of a 16 proffer, how does the question do you know 17 who Ellen Livingstone is implicate the Fifth 18 Amendment privilege? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your indulgence for 20 a second. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Will you respond to that, 142 1 Mr. Marceca? 2 MR. MUSE: What's the question? 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q My question was how does 5 identifying whether you know Ellen 6 Livingstone implicate the Fifth Amendment 7 privilege? 8 A I would have to defer to my -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: He's claimed his 10 privilege, and we've given you the reasons 11 for that. We are claiming the privilege. 12 I'm not going to let the witness answer what 13 the legal basis for his claiming the 14 privilege is. He's doing it on advice of 15 counsel. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: You can do it. 17 MR. WEINBERG: He's doing it on 18 advice of counsel. 19 We don't know who Ellen Livingstone 20 is and what relationship she may or may not 21 have to the allegations that are involved 22 here, and I don't want to open the door to 143 1 any further questions. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to 3 consult with your client? You just admitted 4 that you have no basis to take the privilege. 5 You haven't even conferred with your client. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I have conferred 7 with my client, and I know what my client 8 told me and I don't know what Ellen 9 Livingstone has to do with these allegations, 10 but if she has anything to do with the 11 allegations, then he has every right to claim 12 the privilege and if she doesn't, I'm not 13 quite sure what that question has to do with 14 this case. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well again, you've 16 just stated that you conferred with your 17 client. I assume you, therefore, know. I'm 18 asking for a proffer, rather than rhetorical 19 questions. 20 MR. WEINBERG: The client is taking 21 the Fifth Amendment. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: That's your position. 144 1 I just want to get it clear on the record. I 2 have not thus far been able to discern, 3 that's why I'm asking you these questions, 4 Mr. Weinberg, any methodology for invoking 5 the Fifth. 6 MR. WEINBERG: We gave you a very 7 specific proffer and just to repeat myself, 8 it does not, to invoke the Fifth Amendment, 9 you don't have to lay out exactly why it is, 10 the specifics and why it is you're claiming 11 the Fifth Amendment, otherwise the Fifth 12 Amendment wouldn't be much of a protection 13 and we've laid out in great detail for you 14 and given you a written document and I don't 15 think we need to go any further. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Let's turn to page 2, this is Bates 18 Number 4926, the second entry shows that on 19 October 18, 1994, Craig Livingstone visited 20 POTUS, the requester was Spangler, the 21 arrival time was 1618 and the destination was 22 the residence; do you see that? 145 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q I've accurately read that, haven't 3 I? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q On that date, Craig Livingstone 6 took FBI materials on Republicans and others 7 to Mr. and Mrs. Clinton in the White House, 8 correct? 9 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 10 Objection as to lack of any factual 11 foundation. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I join those 13 objections. 14 MS. COHEN: I join those 15 objections. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 17 objections. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q These Republicans and others were 22 not hold-over, these Republicans and others 146 1 were not hold-over employees or political 2 appointees to the Clinton administration, 3 correct? 4 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 5 Objection as to the lack of any factual 6 foundation. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Join the objection. 8 MS. COHEN: Join the objection. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 10 objections. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Turn to the next page. That's 15 Bates Number 4875. Another WAVE log entry, 16 March 6, 1996, Livingstone is the name of the 17 person, David, first name, visitee, POTUS, 18 the President, requester, Spangler, arrival 19 time 1615, destination residence; do you see 20 that? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Did I read that accurately? 147 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q On that date Craig Livingstone took 3 FBI materials about Republicans and others 4 who were not hold-over employees or political 5 appointees to the Clinton administration to 6 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton in the White House 7 residence? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 Objection that the question lacks a factual 10 basis. 11 MS. GILES: Join the objections. 12 MS. COHEN: Join the objections. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 14 objections. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you know who Regina Livingstone 19 is? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Is Regina Livingstone a relative of 22 Craig Livingstone, David Craig Livingstone? 148 1 A I answered the question I don't 2 know, sir. 3 Q Mr. Livingstone's first name is 4 David, is it not? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Are you asking 6 whether David Livingstone's first name is 7 David? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: No. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q In other words, Craig Livingstone's 11 full name is David Craig Livingstone, is it 12 not? 13 A I am invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 Q It lists entries on this page 16 Andrea Marceca, have I read that correctly? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Is Andrea Marceca related to you? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: No, go ahead. 22 THE WITNESS: I can answer that? 149 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Who is Andrea Marceca? 5 A My daughter. 6 Q Why does she show an entry into the 7 White House on March 27, 1996? 8 A I am invoking my constitutional 9 privilege. 10 Q Is it your position that your 11 daughter is somehow in jeopardy of criminal 12 prosecution? 13 MR. WEINBERG: He's not invoking 14 the privilege on behalf of his daughter and, 15 you know, there are wild enough allegations 16 floating out there that we are not going to 17 open the door to provide a link in the chain 18 to any of these allegations by Mr. Marceca's 19 testimony. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Has your daughter, Andrea Marceca, 22 assisted you or anyone else in providing FBI 150 1 material on Republicans and others who are 2 not hold-over employees or political 3 appointees to the Clinton administration to 4 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I object to that 6 question, both to the form and the fact that 7 there's absolutely no foundation for it. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I join those 9 objections. 10 MS. GILES: I join those 11 objections. 12 MS. COHEN: I join those 13 objections. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: At any time that you 15 wish to have your client testify, you can so 16 advise him, Mr. Weinberg. 17 MR. WEINBERG: You know, you have 18 certain obligations as a Counsel to ask 19 questions that have a reasonable factual 20 basis and I hope that you, I'm not asking you 21 for a proffer, but I hope that you're 22 prepared to do that with respect to these 151 1 questions. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I have done that and 3 he's invoking the Fifth Amendment privilege. 4 Before you make any more 5 accusations against me or my organization, I 6 suggest you think it through, Mr. Weinberg. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q David Marceca, is he related to 9 you? 10 A Yes. 11 Q It shows that David Marceca visited 12 the White House, does it not, on 13 March 27, 1996? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Are you asking him 15 whether you're reading the form accurately, 16 is that what your question is? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I asked the 18 question that I asked. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Well if you're 20 asking whether he visited, are you asking 21 whether David Marceca visited the White House 22 on that day? 152 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q How would whether or not David 6 Marceca visited the White House on that day 7 incriminate you, Mr. Marceca? 8 MR. WEINBERG: He is not going to, 9 he is not going to answer that question. It 10 would not incriminate him, but his Fifth 11 Amendment right entitles him not to answer 12 that question and he will not answer that 13 question for the reasons already stated. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q How is David Marceca related to 16 you? 17 A He's my son. 18 Q Did David Marceca at any time 19 assist you or anyone else in providing FBI 20 materials to Mr. or Mrs. Clinton on 21 Republicans and others who are not hold-over 22 employees and not political appointees of the 153 1 Clinton administration? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 3 of the question. I object that the question 4 lacks a factual basis. 5 MS. GILES: I join the objections. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 7 objections. 8 MS. COHEN: I join the objections. 9 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 MR. WEINBERG: If you want to know 12 why he's invoking the privilege, the very 13 fact that you're asking that kind of question 14 and making that kind of insinuation should 15 tell you clearly enough. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I am making no 17 insinuation and the fact that you make these 18 statements on the record demonstrates your 19 continuing attacks on me and I ask that they 20 stop. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know a Bonnie Marceca? 154 1 A Yes. 2 Q Who is Bonnie Marceca? 3 A My wife. 4 Q Did Bonnie Marceca visit you on 5 March 27, 1996, in the White House? 6 A I am invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 Q Why would my asking you whether she 9 visited you in the White House on that day 10 tend to incriminate you? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Again, we are going 12 through the same thing over and over again. 13 He is not going to respond to questions that 14 ask for legal interpretations. 15 He's taken the position he's taken 16 on the advice of counsel and I've explained 17 to you repeatedly the basis on which he's 18 claiming the Fifth Amendment which is 19 obviously applicable here and given the tenor 20 of your questions, it should be absolutely 21 clear to everyone why it is. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 155 1 Q Did Bonnie Marceca assist you or 2 anyone else in providing FBI materials to 3 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton on Republicans and 4 others who were not hold-over employees and 5 not political appointees of the Clinton 6 administration? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 8 of the question. I object to the absence of 9 a factual basis for the question. 10 MS. GILES: I join the objections. 11 MS. COHEN: I join the objections. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Turn to document Bates Number 4952. 18 This shows certain entries of people visiting 19 you on December 1, 1993, December 14, 1993, 20 December 15, 1993, December 16, 1993, 21 December 16, 1993, December 17, 1993, 22 December 21, 1993, December 22, 1993, 156 1 December 23, 1993, and December 30, 1993. 2 The listing, itself, reflects that 3 you were visited by Daino, Harry, Allen, 4 David, Carr, Edwin, Lee, William, Reffe, 5 Paige, Reames, Carla, Brewercarls, Nancy, 6 Reffe, Paige, Offerman, Doug, and James 7 Lindsay; did I read that correctly. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Who is Harry Daino? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Indulgence for a 11 moment. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege on that question. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Who is David Allen? 16 A I am invoking my constitutional 17 privilege. 18 Q Who is Edwin Carr? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Who is William Lee? 22 A I am invoking my constitutional 157 1 privilege. 2 Q Who is Paige Reffe? 3 A I am invoking my constitutional 4 privilege. 5 Q Who is Carla Reames? 6 A I am invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 Q Would is Nancy Brewercarls? 9 A I am invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q Who is Paige Reffe? 12 A I am invoking my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 Q Who is Doug Offerman? 15 A I am invoking my constitutional 16 privilege. 17 Q Who is James Lindsay? 18 A I am invoking my constitutional 19 privilege. 20 Q Are any of these people related to 21 you? 22 A No, sir. 158 1 Q Is James Lindsay a relation to 2 Bruce Lindsay? 3 A I am invoking my constitutional 4 privilege. 5 Q Did these people assist you or 6 others in obtaining White House background 7 materials on Republicans and others who are 8 not hold-over employees and not political 9 appointees of the Clinton administration for 10 the purpose of providing that information to 11 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question. I object to the absence of 14 a factual basis for the question. 15 MS. GILES: I join those 16 objections. 17 MS. COHEN: I join those 18 objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 159 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did any of these individuals assist 3 you, Anthony Marceca, or others, in obtaining 4 FBI materials on Republicans and others who 5 are not hold-over employees and not political 6 appointees of the Clinton administration for 7 the purposes of releasing that material in to 8 the public domain to harm these individuals' 9 reputations? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 Objection to lacks foundation. 12 MS. GILES: Join the objections. 13 MS. COHEN: Join the objections. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Join the objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Are any of these individuals that 19 I've just mentioned now the subject of 20 criminal investigation? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Indulgence. Go 22 ahead and answer it. 160 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Then how can you invoke your claim 4 of incrimination? 5 MR. WEINBERG: You may be -- 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 MR. WEINBERG: You may be amusing 9 yourself for that question, but for the 10 reasons already stated, the witness is not 11 going to answer that question. 12 Why don't you just go on and ask 13 your next question. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Turn to the next page. 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q There's an entry, on what date did 18 you begin working for the Clinton White 19 House? 20 A I'm invoking my constitutional 21 privilege. 22 Q Before you began working for the 161 1 Clinton White House, did you have access to 2 FBI materials about Republicans and others 3 who weren't hold-over employees and not 4 political appointees of the Clinton 5 administration? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 8 objection. 9 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Turning to this next page, entry on 13 March 6, 1993, name, Livingstone, first name 14 Craig, visitee, Brown, requester Brown, 15 arrival time 904, Room 480; did I read that 16 correctly? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Who occupies room 480 of the White 19 House? 20 A I am invoking my constitutional 21 privilege. 22 Q On that date, did Craig Livingstone 162 1 take FBI materials on Republicans and others 2 who are not hold-over employees and not 3 political appointees to the Clinton 4 administration to Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 6 the question. Object the question lacks a 7 factual basis. 8 MS. COHEN: I join those 9 objections. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 11 objections. 12 MS. GILES: I join those 13 objections. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q On that date did Craig Livingstone 16 release information on Republicans and others 17 as I've just mentioned in to the public 18 domain? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MS. GILES: Objection lacks the 21 factual foundation. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Join both of those 163 1 objections. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Turn to the next page. Entry of 6 October 12, 1993, name Anthony Marceca, 7 visitee, Marceca, requester, Marceca, arrival 8 time 1121, room B4; did I read that 9 correctly? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q Is Anthony Marceca related to you? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead and answer 13 it. 14 THE WITNESS: The only person I 15 know Anthony Marceca was me. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Were you visiting another Marceca 18 in the White House that day? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Were you bringing to a relative of 22 yours, such as Nathan Marceca, FBI materials 164 1 on Republicans and others who are not 2 hold-over employees and not political 3 appointees for the purposes of providing 4 those FBI materials to Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 6 of the question. I object that the question 7 lacks a factual basis. 8 MS. COHEN: I join those 9 objections. 10 MS. GILES: I join those 11 objections. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Is Nathan Marceca your son? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q Was Nathan Marceca employed during 20 the Clinton administration in the White 21 House? 22 A I am -- yes, I am invoking my 165 1 constitutional privilege. 2 Q What job was he employed in? 3 A Again, I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 Q Was Mr. Marceca offered a job by 6 Mr. or Mrs. Clinton to induce you to invoke 7 the Fifth Amendment? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 9 of the question. I object that the question 10 lacks any factual basis. 11 MS. GILES: Join in those 12 objections. 13 MS. COHEN: Join in those 14 objections. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 16 objections. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Was this the quid pro quo to get 21 you to invoke your Fifth Amendment and not 22 implicate Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 166 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. I object to a lack of a 3 factual basis. 4 MS. GILES: I join those 5 objections. 6 MS. COHEN: I join those 7 objections. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 9 objections. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Why are you smiling 13 at me, Mr. Muse? 14 MR. MUSE: I'm amused by some of 15 the questions. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I don't think 17 it's necessary to disrupt the deposition. 18 MR. MUSE: I haven't said a word. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a very 20 serious matter. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Before getting his job in the White 167 1 House, was Mr. Nathan Marceca an investigator 2 for a Congressional committee? 3 A I am invoking -- 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 6 objection. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q There's an entry for 11 October 3, 1993, the name is Andrea Marceca, 12 the visitee is Marceca, the requester is 13 Marceca, the arrival time is 1212, badge 14 number is 4530, the room is B4. 15 Do you know who or what occupies 16 room B4 at the White House? 17 A I don't recall, sir. 18 Q On this date, did Andrea Marceca 19 come to the White House? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Indulge me for one 21 moment. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Strike that. 168 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Am I misreading this? Is it 84, 3 Room 84. On this page I've referred to B4, I 4 believe the number is 84. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Is there a question 6 pending? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q It's correct it's 84, is it not, 9 room 84? 10 A I am -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: What is the question 12 pending? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q The reference to the room number on 15 this page refers to room 84? 16 MR. WEINBERG: So is that the 17 question? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking him to 19 confirm that. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 169 1 Q Room 84 is the office of personnel 2 security, correct? 3 A I don't recall that, sir. 4 Q Room 84 is where you and Craig 5 Livingstone worked, correct? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Room 84 is where FBI materials on 12 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 13 employees and not political appointees of the 14 Clinton administration were kept and 15 maintained? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 17 of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q On that date, October 3, 1993, 22 Andrea Marceca came to the White House to 170 1 assist you and others in taking FBI materials 2 on Republicans and others who are not 3 hold-over employees and not political 4 appointees to the Clinton administration to 5 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 7 of the question. I object that the question 8 lacks a factual basis. 9 MS. GILES: I join those 10 objections. 11 MS. COHEN: I join those 12 objections. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 14 objections. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q On that date, materials involving 19 Republicans and others who are not hold-over 20 employees and not political appointees were 21 released in to the public domain for the 22 purpose of harming their reputations? 171 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. Object that it lacks 3 foundation. 4 MS. GILES: I join those 5 objections. 6 MS. COHEN: I join those 7 objections. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 9 objections. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q On that day, you, Anthony Marceca, 14 showed Nathan Marceca and Andrea Marceca FBI 15 materials pertaining to Republicans and 16 others who are not hold-over employees and 17 not political appointees of the Clinton 18 administration? 19 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 20 of the question, and I object to the fact 21 that question lacks any factual foundation. 22 MS. GILES: I join those 172 1 objections. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 3 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Mr. Marceca, you have seen your own 8 FBI background summary report, correct? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q That material was provided to you 15 by Craig Livingstone, correct? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 17 of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q In fact, Craig Livingstone provided 22 it to you and stated that he understood it 173 1 was your FBI background material, correct? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 3 of the question. 4 MS. GILES: Join. 5 MS. COHEN: Join. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q In fact, you have used information 11 in that FBI background report on you to sue 12 other people? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 14 of the question. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q At all times that you worked for 19 the White House, you were aware that the 20 Privacy Act applied to the White House? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 22 of the question. 174 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q At all times that you worked for 5 the White House, you were aware that the 6 Privacy Act applied to the White House 7 counsel's office? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q When you worked with the White 14 House, you were advised by White House 15 personnel that the Privacy Act applied to the 16 White House counsel's office and the White 17 House as a whole? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 19 of the question. 20 MS. GILES: Object to the form. 21 MS. COHEN: Join. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 175 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You are aware that the White House 4 kept and keeps files, whether FBI or 5 otherwise, on individuals which it considers 6 to be adverse to its interests? 7 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 11 objections. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You are aware that the White House 16 has a file on Judge Kenneth Starr? 17 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to form. 20 MS. COHEN: Join. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 176 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You're aware that file was kept 3 subject to the Privacy Act, correct? 4 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 6 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Form. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that materials from 12 that file are kept and maintained in a record 13 keeping system at the White House? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 15 and object to the factual basis for asking 16 the question. 17 MS. GILES: Objection to lack of 18 any factual foundation. 19 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 177 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You are aware that the White House 3 has never informed Judge Starr that such a 4 file exists? 5 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 MS. COHEN: Object to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You are aware that materials from 13 that file have been released in to the public 14 domain without Judge Starr's approval? 15 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 16 Objection as to lack of any factual 17 foundation. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 19 MS. COHEN: I join. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 21 objections. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 178 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You are aware that the White House 4 has kept and continues to maintain a file on 5 Congressman Robert Barr? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I join in the 8 objection. 9 MS. GILES: Join in the objection. 10 MS. COHEN: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You are aware that such file has 15 been kept and maintained under the provisions 16 of the Privacy Act? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You are aware that file is labeled 22 Robert Barr? 179 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 4 and insofar as you're asking him what he's 5 aware of, I certainly object on the grounds 6 of lack of factual basis. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that contained in 11 that file is FBI and Internal Revenue Service 12 material? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 14 and I object to the lack of factual 15 foundation to ask that question of this 16 witness. 17 MS. COHEN: I join. 18 MS. GILES: Join the objections. 19 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You're aware that the White House 180 1 counsel's office has had access to that file? 2 MS. GILES: Objection, the lack of 3 any factual foundation. 4 MS. COHEN: Join. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 6 objection and I object as to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that William 11 Jefferson Clinton and Hillary Clinton have 12 had access to that file? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 14 of the question and object that the question 15 lacks any factual basis. 16 MS. GILES: I join those 17 objections. 18 MS. COHEN: I join those 19 objections. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 21 objections. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 181 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You're aware that file was kept and 4 maintained at the direction of William 5 Jefferson Clinton and Hillary Clinton? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 7 the question. Objection that the question 8 lacks any factual basis. 9 MS. GILES: I join those 10 objections. 11 MS. COHEN: I join those 12 objections. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 14 objections. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You are aware that file was kept 17 for the purpose of gathering and maintaining 18 information on Congressman Barr to release in 19 to the public domain? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 21 the question. Object that the question lacks 22 any factual basis. 182 1 MS. COHEN: I join in those 2 objections. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 4 objections. 5 MS. GILES: I join in those 6 objections. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that William 9 Jefferson Clinton and Hillary Clinton 10 directed White House personnel to use that 11 information in that file to destroy the 12 reputation of Congressman Barr? 13 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 14 Objection to lack of any factual foundation. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I join those 16 objections. 17 MS. COHEN: I join those. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 19 objections. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 Fifth Amendment privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 183 1 Q You are aware that information from 2 that file has been used in the public domain 3 against Congressman Barr? 4 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks any 5 factual foundation. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 7 MS. COHEN: Join. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that and I 9 object to the form of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You are aware that information in 14 that file was provided to Larry Flint? 15 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks any 16 factual foundation. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I join in that 18 objection. Also objection to form. 19 MS. COHEN: I join both those 20 objections. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I join both those 22 objections. 184 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You are aware that the stated goal 5 of William Jefferson Clinton and Hillary 6 Clinton was to destroy Congressman Robert 7 Barr? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 9 of the question. Objection that the, I 10 object that the question lacks any factual 11 basis. 12 MS. GILES: I join those 13 objections. 14 MS. COHEN: I join those 15 objections. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 17 objections. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You are aware that the information 22 contained in the referenced file concerning 185 1 Congressman Barr was FBI background material 2 obtained by the White House at the direction 3 of Bill and Hillary Clinton to use to destroy 4 the reputation of Congressman Robert Barr? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 Objection that it lacks any factual basis. 7 MS. GILES: I join those 8 objections. 9 MS. COHEN: I join those 10 objections. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I join both those 12 objections. 13 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q The stated reason of the President 17 and Mrs. Clinton to destroy his reputation 18 was to avoid impeachment and conviction 19 before the House of Representatives and the 20 Senate of the United States? 21 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 22 Objection as to lack of any factual 186 1 foundation. 2 MS. COHEN: I join those 3 objections. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: I join those 5 objections. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 7 objections. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Are you being represented here 12 today by anyone other than Mr. Weinberg and 13 Mr. Muse? 14 A Also by Dan Chepaitis over here. 15 Q How is his name spelled? 16 A Chepaitis, C-h-a-p-i-t-i-s. 17 Q Anyone else? 18 A No, sir. 19 MR. MUSE: Mr. Chepaitis' name is 20 spelled incorrectly. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever met Special Agent 187 1 Sculimbrene, Dennis Sculimbrene? 2 A I am invoking my constitutional 3 privilege. 4 Q Do you know whether an individual 5 by the name of Dennis Sculimbrene exists on 6 the face of this earth? 7 A I am invoking my constitutional 8 privilege. 9 Q Do you know whether the White House 10 has ever kept a file on Special Agent 11 Sculimbrene? 12 A I am invoking my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 Q Do you know whether or not any such 15 file contains FBI background information? 16 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks any 17 factual foundation. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 19 objection. 20 MS. COHEN: I join that objection. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 188 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q This file was kept at the direction 4 of Bill and Hillary Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 6 of the question and I object that the 7 question lacks any factual basis. 8 MS. GILES: I join those 9 objections, in addition it's unclear to me 10 that there's a question pending or a 11 statement. 12 MS. COHEN: I join. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 14 objections and that last comment. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q This file was not kept for a lawful 19 purpose? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 21 objection lacks factual basis. 22 MS. GILES: I join those 189 1 objections. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 3 objections. 4 MS. COHEN: I join those 5 objections. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q This file was kept for the purpose 10 of using FBI material to disseminate it in to 11 the public domain to destroy the reputation 12 of Special Agent Sculimbrene? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 14 the question. Object that it lacks any 15 factual basis. 16 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 17 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 18 In addition it seems to be in the form of a 19 statement rather than a question. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Join in those 21 objections. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 190 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Information from that file was 4 released at the request of Bill and Hillary 5 Clinton to destroy the reputation of Agent 6 Sculimbrene? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 8 of the question. I object that it lacks any 9 factual basis. 10 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 11 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You are aware that Special Agent 18 Sculimbrene drafted an FBI report where he 19 stated that in interviewing Bernard Nussbaum, 20 White House counsel, Mr. Nussbaum told him 21 that Craig Livingstone was hired on the 22 strong recommendation of Hillary Clinton? 191 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 4 MS. COHEN: I object to form. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 Fifth Amendment privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You are aware that after that 10 report became public that Mr. Sculimbrene, 11 Agent Sculimbrene wrote about his discussion 12 with Mr. Nussbaum wherein he states that 13 Nussbaum told him that Mrs. Clinton had 14 strongly recommended Craig Livingstone? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 16 of the question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q That three agents of the FBI 19 visited Agent Sculimbrene for the purpose of 20 threatening and intimidating him to try to 21 keep him quiet? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 192 1 MS. COHEN: I object to the form. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 3 and I object to the factual foundation so far 4 as you're asking the question of this 5 witness. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You're aware that, in fact, it was 8 two agents that visited him, correct? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 10 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Join the objections. 12 MS. COHEN: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 Fifth Amendment privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You are aware that the White House 18 has kept and maintains a file on Larry 19 Klayman? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 21 and I object to the lack of a factual 22 foundation. 193 1 MS. GILES: Objection to the lack 2 of a factual foundation. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Join those 4 objections. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You are aware that Larry Klayman 7 has never been advised that such a file is 8 being kept and maintained? 9 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 10 and the lack of a factual foundation. 11 MS. GILES: Join in those 12 objections. 13 MS. COHEN: Join in those 14 objections. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q I believe you didn't invoke it for 19 the prior question. 20 A I invoked it for both of those. 21 Q You are aware that contained in 22 that file is information from Larry Klayman's 194 1 Justice Department FBI background summary 2 investigation? 3 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 4 and to the lack of a factual foundation for 5 asking the question. 6 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 7 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that file was kept at 12 the direction of Bill and Hillary Clinton? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 Objection lacks any factual basis. 15 MS. GILES: I join those 16 objections. 17 MS. COHEN: I join those 18 objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 195 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You are aware that file was subject 3 to the Privacy Act? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 6 objection. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that information from 11 that file has been released in to the public 12 domain to damage the reputation of Larry 13 Klayman? 14 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 15 Objection as to lack of any factual 16 foundation. 17 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 196 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You are aware that the release of 3 information on Larry Klayman from that file 4 was ordered by Bill and Hillary Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 6 the question. I object that the question 7 lacks any factual basis. 8 MS. GILES: I join those 9 objections. 10 MS. COHEN: I join those 11 objections. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You are aware that there are other 18 types of information from agencies in 19 addition to the FBI which are contained in 20 the file of Larry Klayman at the White House? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 22 the question. 197 1 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 3 and the lack of any factual basis. 4 MS. COHEN: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that an objective of 9 the Clinton administration is to destroy 10 anyone who criticizes them? 11 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 12 Objection as to lack of any factual 13 foundation. 14 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 16 objections. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Which objective is meted out by 21 using confidential information in the 22 Government files to smear the reputation of 198 1 critics of the Clinton administration? 2 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 3 Objection as to lack of any factual 4 foundation. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 6 objections. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 8 MS. COHEN: I join those 9 objections. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You are aware that this objective 14 was fashioned by none other than Bill and 15 Hillary Clinton? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 17 of the question. I object that the question 18 lacks any factual basis. 19 MS. COHEN: I join those 20 objections. 21 MS. GILES: I join those 22 objections. 199 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 2 objections. 3 THE WITNESS: I invoke my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You are aware that the director of 7 the FBI, Louis Free, is fully aware of what 8 the Clinton administration is doing 9 concerning gathering information on critics 10 and disseminating that information to smear 11 the reputation of critics? 12 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 13 of the question and to the lack of any 14 reasonable factual foundation for asking it. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I join that 16 objection. 17 MS. COHEN: I join that objection. 18 MS. GILES: I join those 19 objections. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 200 1 Q In fact, you're aware that FBI 2 director Louis Free has visited Craig 3 Livingstone at the White House on a number of 4 occasions? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Turning your attention back to page 10 number 4952, an entry on 12/18/93, Louis 11 Free, visitee, Livingstone, requester 12 Anderson, room 1449, Room 83; did I read that 13 correctly? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Do you know why Mr. Free visited 16 Mr. Livingstone on that day? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you talked about the 22 allegations of the controversy known as 201 1 Filegate with FBI director Louis Free? 2 A I am invoking my constitutional 3 privilege. 4 Q When I say Filegate, do you know 5 what I'm referring to? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q What am I referring to? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't you tell 9 the witness what you're referring to so 10 there's no mistake. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: He's allowed to 12 respond. He said he knows. 13 Please don't interrupt the witness' 14 response. 15 MR. WEINBERG: If you want to have 16 a definition of Filegate, then you give it to 17 the witness. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing 19 him not to answer? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I will instruct 21 him not to answer as to what your definition 22 of Filegate is. 202 1 MR. KLAYMAN: He said he knows. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well he said he 3 knows what you mean and I think that if you 4 want to have a clear record and not play 5 games, you can tell him what you mean and 6 then we'll all know what you mean. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't continue 8 to make accusations against me, Mr. Weinberg. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going to 10 have the witness answer a question as to what 11 you mean by a phrase. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: He said he knows. 13 I'm entitled to know what he understands 14 Filegate to mean. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well the question 16 you asked him was did he understand what you 17 meant. 18 If you want to ask him some other 19 question, you can ask him. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Please answer the question. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm instructing the 203 1 witness not to answer the question as to 2 whether he knows what you mean by Filegate. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What does Anthony Marceca mean by 5 Filegate? 6 A I am invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 Q Turn to the next page, Bates 9 Number 4949, on that day, October 24, 1994, a 10 John Toohey visited Craig Livingstone at the 11 White House, requester was Livingstone, the 12 arrival time was 1015 and the room was 84. 13 Do you know Mr. John Toohey? 14 A I am invoking my constitutional 15 privilege. 16 Q Looking down on this WAVE log, we 17 see a Paul Blumberg visiting Livingstone on 18 that day, Dan McArron, Paige Reffe, Greg 19 Hicks, Jerome Brown, Ernest Marenchin, 20 Richard Hopkins and Ronald Moore visiting A. 21 Marceca; do you see that? 22 A Yes, sir. 204 1 Q All of the destination points are 2 room 84, correct? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Room 84 is the office of personnel 5 security? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Just so the record 7 is clear, you're asking him what's written on 8 this page to confirm what you're reading from 9 this page? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I asked him a 11 straight up question without regard to what's 12 written on the page. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Then that question 14 was not clear and his, he didn't understand 15 the question. I understood you to be asking 16 what was written on the page, whether you 17 were accurately stating what was written on 18 the page. 19 THE WITNESS: Could we have that 20 read back, please. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't be a 22 revisionist in his answering. 205 1 THE WITNESS: That's what you 2 asked, Mr. Klayman. You asked as it pertains 3 to this page. We might have it read back, 4 please. 5 MR. WEINBERG: In any event, that 6 was the witness' understanding, so if you 7 want to ask any further questions, why don't 8 you go ahead and ask them. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Are you invoking the Fifth 11 Amendment privilege? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Ask the question and 13 we'll see, question by question. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: It's inappropriate to 15 provide testimony, Mr. Weinberg. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Now, these individuals, did they 18 visit Livingstone and Marceca as indicated on 19 this page of the WAVE logs 4949 -- 20 A I am invoking my constitutional 21 privilege. 22 Q For the purpose of providing FBI 206 1 material concerning Republicans and others 2 who are not hold-over employees and not 3 political appointees of the Clinton 4 administration? 5 A I am invoking -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 7 of the question and to the lack of a proper 8 factual foundation and reasonable basis for 9 asking the question. 10 MS. COHEN: I join those. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I join those 12 objection. 13 MS. GILES: I join those 14 objections. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did these individuals come to the 17 White House that day with FBI material? 18 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the lack 19 of a factual basis for asking the question. 20 MS. GILES: I join that objection. 21 MS. COHEN: I join that objection. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 207 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did these individuals leave the 3 White House that day with FBI material? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the lack 5 of any factual basis for asking that 6 question. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did these individuals, are you 9 going to take the Fifth? 10 A I am invoking my constitutional 11 privilege. 12 Q Did these individuals leave on the 13 days enumerated on Bates Number 4949 with FBI 14 material? 15 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the lack 16 of a reasonable basis for asking that 17 question. 18 MS. GILES: I join in that 19 objection. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I join in that 21 objection. 22 MS. COHEN: I join in that 208 1 objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Turning to the remaining pages on 6 this White House WAVES 7 logs, 4946, 4943, 4931, 4928, 4920, 4904, 490 8 1, 4891, 4885, can you identify any of the 9 people who are listed as visiting the White 10 House that day? 11 MR. WEINBERG: You're asking him to 12 go through all those pages? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Take your time. 14 MR. WEINBERG: If your question is 15 can he identify them as being listed on these 16 sheets of paper, that's one thing. If you're 17 asking whether they visited the White House 18 that day, that's another. Which are you 19 asking? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I didn't ask 21 either of those questions. 22 I'm asking whether he can identify 209 1 any one quite apart from whether they are 2 listed on the paper. 3 THE WITNESS: In answer to your 4 question, Mr. Klayman, I believe that Bonnie 5 Marceca as depicted here is my wife and I 6 believe as Anthony Marceca as depicted is 7 myself and in the case of Nathan and David, I 8 believe those are my sons. I believe, let's 9 see. Those are the names that appear here, 10 sir, but I believe that they are my children 11 and my wife. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know who a William 14 Livingstone is? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Do you know who Gloria Livingstone 17 is? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q Is she related to Craig 20 Livingstone? 21 A I am invoking my constitutional 22 privilege. 210 1 Q Is that his mother? 2 A I am invoking my constitutional 3 privilege. 4 Q Do you know who Denna Livingstone 5 is? 6 A I am invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 Q Is Denna Livingstone related to 9 Craig Livingstone? 10 A I am invoking my constitutional 11 privilege. 12 Q Do you know who Susan Fox is? 13 A I'm invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 Q Sandy Willhite? 16 A I am invoking my constitutional 17 privilege. 18 Q Debra Willhite? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Piper Willhite? 22 A I am invoking my constitutional 211 1 privilege. 2 Q Summer Willhite? 3 A What page are you on, sir? 4 Q 4901. 5 A I am invoking my constitutional 6 privilege. 7 Q James Levy? 8 A I am invoking my constitutional 9 privilege. 10 Q Randall Turk? 11 A What page is that, sir? 12 Q 4904. 13 A I am invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 Q Susan Clifford? 16 A I am invoking my constitutional 17 privilege. 18 Q Arthur Decoursey? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q David Cohen? 22 A I am invoking my constitutional 212 1 privilege. 2 Q James Werner? 3 A I am invoking my constitutional 4 privilege. 5 Q Paul Richard? 6 A I am invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 Q Amy Nicola? 9 A I am invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q Leah Nicola? 12 A I am invoking my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 Q Bonnie Perkins? 15 A I am invoking my constitutional 16 privilege. 17 Q Did any of these persons come to 18 the White House on the days enumerated 19 bringing FBI material on Republicans and 20 others who are not hold-over employees and 21 not political appointees of the Clinton 22 administration? 213 1 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 2 of the question and for the lack of a 3 factual, reasonable factual basis for asking 4 the question. 5 MS. COHEN: I join those 6 objections. 7 MS. GILES: I join those 8 objections. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did any of these persons 14 participate with you or anyone else in the 15 release of FBI materials on Republicans and 16 others who are not political appointees or 17 hold-overs in the Clinton administration? 18 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 214 1 Q These individuals participated with 2 you and Craig Livingstone, Bill Kennedy and 3 others at the direction of Bill and Hillary 4 Clinton in releasing FBI materials on 5 Republicans and others who are not hold-overs 6 and who are not political appointees of the 7 Clinton administration into the public domain 8 for the purpose of smearing these 9 individuals' reputations? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 Objection that the question lacks any factual 12 basis. 13 MS. GILES: I join those 14 objections. 15 MS. COHEN: I join those 16 objections. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 18 objections. 19 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Mr. Marceca, when you worked at the 215 1 White House, you were involved in a scheme to 2 gather information on White House, on 3 Republicans and others who are not hold-over 4 employees and not political appointees of the 5 Clinton administration, correct? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You were, in fact, engaged in what 13 is known as political espionage? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 15 of the question. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You were, in fact, gathering 22 information to use against those persons? 216 1 MS. GILES: Objection. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 3 of the question. 4 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 5 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You understood that this scheme to 11 gather information was called opposition 12 research? 13 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 17 and the lack of any reasonable basis for 18 asking that question. 19 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q This is the in vogue opposition 217 1 research which you first saw during the 2 Humphrey campaign? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 5 MS. COHEN: Object to the form. 6 MS. GILES: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a 10 five-minute break. 11 (Recessed 2:27 p.m.) 12 (Reconvene 2:43 p.m.) 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Mr. Marceca, did your son, Nathan, 15 ever work in the White House gift shop? 16 A I would like to invoke my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 Q Did you ever have a meeting with 19 Craig Livingstone and Craig Livingstone's 20 attorneys where you discussed FBI files? 21 A I'd like to invoke my 22 constitutional privilege. 218 1 Q During any such meeting, did you 2 discuss falsifying an affidavit with 3 Mr. Livingstone and counsel for 4 Mr. Livingstone? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 6 of the question and to the lack of any 7 reasonable basis for asking it. 8 MS. GILES: I join that objection. 9 MS. COHEN: I join that objection. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What was discussed during that 14 meeting between you, Craig Livingstone and 15 his attorneys? 16 A I am invoking my constitutional 17 privilege. 18 Q Were those attorneys named Randy 19 Turk and David Cohen? 20 A I'm invoking my constitutional 21 privilege. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 219 1 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 2 Exhibit 5. 3 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 4 No. 5 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Mr. Marceca, Exhibit 5, is this a 8 copy of a declaration or an affidavit which 9 you prepared with Mr. Livingstone and/or his 10 attorneys? 11 A I'd like to invoke my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 Q Portions of this declaration are 14 false, correct? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 16 of the question and to the lack of a factual 17 foundation and a reasonable basis for asking 18 it. 19 THE WITNESS: I'd like to invoke my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Which portions of this declaration 220 1 are false? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 3 of the question. 4 MS. GILES: Join that objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I'd like to invoke my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q The first draft of this declaration 9 was written by attorneys for Craig 10 Livingstone, correct? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I would like to 14 invoke my constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You advised them that from that 17 first draft there were certain portions of 18 the declaration which were not correct; isn't 19 that true? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 21 of the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I would like to 221 1 invoke my constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q The attorneys for Craig Livingstone 4 told you that in their opinion, you shouldn't 5 correct it? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I would like to 9 invoke my constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You signed the declaration which 12 was prepared by Craig Livingstone's attorneys 13 knowing that portions of the declaration were 14 incorrect? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 16 of the question and to the lack of a 17 reasonable basis for asking it. 18 MS. GILES: Join that objection. 19 MS. COHEN: Join that objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 222 1 Q Do you know whether in the 2 possession of Craig Livingstone's attorneys 3 are computer disks which he took from the 4 White House? 5 A I would like to invoke my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 Q Do you know whether any such 8 computer disks contain information about the 9 obtaining of FBI material by the White House 10 from the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 11 A I would like to invoke my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 Q Do you know whether or not any of 14 those computer disks contain information 15 about FBI material concerning Republicans and 16 others who were not hold-over employees and 17 not political appointees of the Clinton 18 administration? 19 A I'd like to invoke my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 Q Have you discussed your deposition 22 today with Craig Livingstone? 223 1 A I would like to invoke my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 MR. WEINBERG: You can answer that 4 question. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q At any time? 8 MR. WEINBERG: He said have you 9 discussed this deposition today. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Have you spoken with Craig 13 Livingstone since the time you left the White 14 House? 15 A I am invoking my constitutional 16 privilege. 17 Q Have you spoken with Bill Kennedy 18 since the time you left the White House? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Have you spoken with Bernard 22 Nussbaum since the time you left the White 224 1 House? 2 A I am invoking my constitutional 3 privilege. 4 Q Have you spoken with Hillary 5 Clinton since the time you left the White 6 House? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you spoken with William 12 Jefferson Clinton since the time you left the 13 White House? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you ever met Hillary Clinton? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Have you ever met William Jefferson 22 Clinton? 225 1 A I am invoking my constitutional 2 privilege. 3 Q Have you ever discussed with 4 Hillary Clinton your appearance before any 5 legal tribunal or Congress? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the 8 form. You have no reasonable factual basis 9 for asking that question. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I join that 11 objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you know a Vince Foster? 16 A I don't understand the question. 17 Q Do you know an individual who 18 previously worked at the White House by the 19 name of Vince Foster? 20 A I am invoking my constitutional 21 privilege. 22 Q Are you aware that Mr. Foster was a 226 1 deputy White House counsel? 2 A I am invoking my constitutional 3 privilege. 4 Q Do you know whether or not 5 Mr. Foster had access to FBI files of 6 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 7 employees and not political appointees of the 8 Clinton administration? 9 A I am invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 12 asked Vince Foster to oversee a scheme to 13 gather FBI information about Republicans and 14 others who were not hold-over employees or 15 political appointees of the Clinton 16 administration? 17 MS. GILES: I object as to form. I 18 object as to the lack of any factual 19 foundation. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I join those 21 objections. 22 MS. COHEN: I join those 227 1 objections. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 3 objections. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You're aware that Vince Foster 8 participated in the misuse of FBI material on 9 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 10 employees and not political appointees of the 11 Clinton administration? 12 MS. GILES: Objection as to the 13 form. Objection as to the lack of any 14 factual foundation. 15 MS. COHEN: I join those 16 objections. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 19 objections. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 228 1 Q You are aware that at the direction 2 of Hillary Clinton, Vince Foster disseminated 3 FBI material on Republicans and others who 4 are not hold-over employees and not political 5 appointees of the Clinton administration in 6 to the public domain? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 8 of the question. I object that you've got no 9 factual basis to assert that question. 10 MS. GILES: I join those 11 objections. 12 MS. COHEN: I join those 13 objections. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 15 objections. 16 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You are aware that Vince Foster 20 objected vehemently to being ordered by 21 Hillary Clinton to undertake this scheme? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 229 1 of the question. I object again that this 2 question lacks any factual basis. 3 MS. GILES: I join those objection. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 5 objections. 6 MS. COHEN: I join those 7 objections. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that Vince Foster was 12 a lawyer? 13 A I am invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 Q You are aware that a lawyer when 16 his client tells him to do something which is 17 illegal must either tell the client to stop 18 or he must resign? 19 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 20 of that question. You're asking the witness 21 for a legal opinion which he can't possibly 22 give. 230 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Please respond. 3 A I am invoking my constitutional 4 privilege. 5 Q You're aware that Vince Foster was 6 ordered by Hillary Clinton to do personal 7 legal work for Hillary Clinton and Bill 8 Clinton? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 10 the question. Objection lacks foundation. 11 MS. GILES: I join those 12 objections. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 14 objections. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware that Vince Foster 19 considered Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton 20 to be his clients? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 231 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 2 objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You are aware that rather than, you 7 are aware that Vince Foster confronted Bill 8 and Hillary Clinton and told them to stop 9 misusing FBI materials on Republicans and 10 others who are not hold-over employees and 11 not political appointees of the White House? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question. I object that the question 14 lacks a factual basis. 15 MS. GILES: I join those 16 objections. 17 MS. COHEN: I join those 18 objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. You have absolutely no factual 21 basis for asking that question and you ask 22 about proffers from us, you ought to think 232 1 about the proffers you will make if you were 2 asked to provide a reasonable basis for 3 asking that question. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Weinberg, rather 5 than spending your time making ad hominem 6 attacks on counsel, you should read the 7 record in this case. But I'm not going to 8 get into it. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Please respond. 11 A I am invoking my constitutional 12 privilege. 13 Q You are aware that Vince Foster was 14 told that, by Bill and Hillary Clinton that 15 they would not cease these activities so he 16 took his own life? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 18 of the question. Objection, lacks a factual 19 basis. 20 MS. GILES: I join those 21 objections, I also object on relevance. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 233 1 objections, all of them. 2 MS. COHEN: I join those 3 objections, as well. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You are aware that Vince Foster 8 died while he was working at the White House? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 11 form. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You are aware that after Vince 16 Foster died, that FBI files and other FBI 17 materials were taken out of his office to the 18 White House residence? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 20 of the question. Objection that it lacks a 21 factual basis. 22 MS. GILES: I join those 234 1 objections. 2 MS. COHEN: I join those 3 objections. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 5 objections. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You're aware that among the people 10 who took information from the FBI out of 11 Vince Foster's office after he died were 12 Bernard Nussbaum and Maggie Williams? 13 MS. COHEN: I object to the form of 14 that question and I object because it lacks 15 any factual basis. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 18 objections. 19 MS. GILES: I join those 20 objections. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional basis. 235 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Incidentally, if none 2 of this has a factual basis, Mr. Weinberg, 3 feel free to instruct your client I don't 4 know. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not here to 6 instruct him not to answer, but I will say 7 this to you, if you ask questions without a 8 reasonable factual basis, you do so knowing 9 what the consequences and what your 10 obligations are. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I hope that you 12 understand the consequences of some of the 13 statements that you have made. 14 MR. WEINBERG: You have -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't take your 16 threats lightly, nor do I like your 17 continuing attacks on me which are part and 18 parcel to now a pattern of conduct over the 19 last several days. 20 MR. WEINBERG: You have a witness 21 who's taking, he's exercising a 22 constitutional right and you're using his 236 1 doing that in a way that you have to decide 2 for yourself whether you're using it in an 3 appropriate manner knowing the obligations 4 set forth by the Bar. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well you will decide 6 for your client and we will decide for our 7 clients and in the meantime your threats in 8 and of themselves in my view violate the code 9 of professional responsibility. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Please answer the question. 12 A I am invoking my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 MR. MUSE: Mr. Klayman, just 15 because you make it part of the record, there 16 have been no threats by Mr. Weinberg and 17 since you said it repeatedly, I think in 18 fairness to Mr. Weinberg, the record should 19 reflect that there are no threats by 20 Mr. Weinberg and because you say something 21 doesn't give it any truth or validity. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: That is a threat and 237 1 that's the way I took it in the context of 2 everything else that has been said. 3 MR. MUSE: It's not a threat and 4 that's unfortunate that you take it that way. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it as coming 6 from you, as well, Mr. Muse, because you're 7 sitting there with him and you co-signed the 8 pleading. 9 MR. MUSE: So as you do that, I 10 want you to know, it wasn't a threat from me 11 and I'm sure Mr. Weinberg will say it wasn't 12 a threat from him, so the record is complete. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can answer the question. 15 A I am invoking my constitutional 16 privilege, sir. 17 Q You are aware that at the time that 18 he died, Vince Foster was very depressed? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 20 of the question. 21 MS. GILES: Also object on 22 relevancy grounds. 238 1 MS. COHEN: I join in those 2 objections. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are you aware that the FBI 7 background summary reports and other 8 materials from the White House travel office 9 employees were obtained by Vince Foster? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 Objection lacks a factual basis. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 13 objections. 14 MS. COHEN: I join in those 15 objections. 16 MS. GILES: I join in those 17 objections. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Do you know a Billy Dale? 22 A I am invoking my constitutional 239 1 privilege. 2 Q Do you know a Barney Brasso? 3 A I am invoking my constitutional 4 privilege. 5 Q Are you aware that Billy Dale and 6 Barney Brasso were fired from the travel 7 office during the Clinton administration? 8 A I am invoking my constitutional 9 privilege. 10 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 11 ordered that firing? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question, objection that it lacks 14 foundation. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 16 objections. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 21 requested the Justice Department to indict 22 Billy Dale and the other travel office 240 1 employees? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 3 of the question. I object, once again, to 4 the question being posed without any factual 5 basis. 6 MS. COHEN: I join in those 7 objections. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 9 objections. 10 MS. GILES: I join in those 11 objections. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You are aware that the purpose of 16 indicting the travel office employees was to 17 destroy their reputations to justify the 18 Clintons having ordered their firing? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 20 the question. Objection, lacks foundation. 21 MS. COHEN: I join those 22 objections. 241 1 MR. WEINBERG: Join those 2 objections. 3 MS. GILES: I join those objections 4 and also object on relevancy as defined by 5 the Judge's orders. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm -- 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that there was a 9 meeting in Vince Foster's office with David 10 Watkins, Catherine Cornelius, Maggie 11 Williams, Harry Thomasson and Bill Kennedy 12 wherein they discussed the White House travel 13 office? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object, I join in 16 that objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege to answer that. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You are aware that Bill Kennedy 21 came to that meeting with FBI files or FBI 22 materials concerning the White House travel 242 1 office employees? 2 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 3 of that question. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q In fact, you and Craig Livingstone 8 provided the FBI files and materials to Bill 9 Kennedy on the travel office workers for 10 purposes of that meeting? 11 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 12 of the question and to the lack of any 13 reasonable basis for asking the question. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: I join that 15 objection. 16 MS. GILES: I join those 17 objections. 18 MS. COHEN: I join in that 19 objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 243 1 Q You are aware that at that meeting, 2 the participants reviewed the FBI files and 3 other objects pertaining to Billy Dale and 4 the other White House travel employees? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 6 of the question and I object on the grounds 7 that you have no reasonable factual basis for 8 asking the question. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 10 MS. COHEN: Join. 11 MS. GILES: I join. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You are aware that those FBI files 16 and other materials on Billy Dale and the 17 other White House travel office employees 18 were reviewed for purposes of gathering dirt 19 on them to destroy their reputations and to 20 justify their ultimate firings? 21 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 22 of the question and I object on the grounds 244 1 that you have no reasonable factual basis to 2 ask the question. 3 MS. GILES: I join those 4 objections. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 6 MS. COHEN: I join. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that this meeting was 11 held at the direction of Hillary Clinton? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 Objection that it lacks a factual basis. 14 MS. COHEN: Join. 15 MS. GILES: I join. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I join, as well. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You are aware that the FBI material 21 concerning Billy Dale and the other travel 22 office employees was kept and maintained in 245 1 manila colored files? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 4 objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that Mrs. Clinton 9 asked Mr. Foster to call this meeting? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 11 the question. Objection that it lacks a 12 factual basis. 13 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 15 objections. 16 MS. COHEN: I join those 17 objections. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You are aware that at the time the 22 meeting took place, that Vince Foster's 246 1 secretary was Betsy Pond? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that funny, 3 Mr. Gillman? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: No, it was 5 preposterous in light of the deposition 6 testimony in this case over the past few 7 days. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 9 of the question. I object that there's any 10 factual basis for that. 11 THE WITNESS: I'd like to invoke my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Are you aware that at the time of 15 this meeting the secretary for Vince Foster 16 was Debra Gorham? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Join in that 19 objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 247 1 Q Are you aware that after the 2 meeting, Debra Gorham and Linda Tripp walked 3 in to the office of Vince Foster? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 5 of the question and any factual basis for 6 asking the question of this witness. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I join those two 8 objections. 9 MS. COHEN: I join those 10 objections. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 12 constitutional right to, my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Are you aware that displayed in 16 Vince Foster's office were various 17 photographs, one of which shows him and the 18 President during their youth? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q You were told by Linda Tripp and 22 Debra Gorham that they saw files concerning 248 1 Billy Dale and the travel office employees on 2 Foster's desk when they walked in to the 3 office that day? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You were told by Linda Tripp that 10 she later saw these same files in a safe in 11 Bernard Nussbaum's office, a safe which Vince 12 Foster used to house FBI and other 13 confidential materials? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q In fact, you saw FBI materials 20 concerning Billy Dale and the other travel 21 office employees in that safe in Bernard 22 Nussbaum's office? 249 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Join in that 3 objection. 4 MS. GILES: Join in that objection. 5 MS. COHEN: I join that objection. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Mr. Marceca, you had the 10 combination to that safe, correct? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 12 of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You were asked from time to time by 17 Debra Gorham, Linda Tripp and Betsy Pond to 18 open that safe, correct? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 20 of the question. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 250 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Inside that safe you saw manila 3 file folders, correct? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Inside those manila file folders 10 were FBI background materials on the travel 11 office workers and others? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 13 of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q In one such file folder was the FBI 18 material concerning Chris Emory? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 20 objection lacks foundation. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Join both those 22 objections. 251 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Chris Emory's file also contained 5 information from the Internal Revenue 6 Service? 7 A I am invoking my constitutional -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 9 of the question and to the factual basis for 10 asking of this witness. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I join. 12 MS. COHEN: I join those. 13 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q In fact, Mr. Marceca, you requested 17 an IRS records check on Chris Emory on 18 December 17, 1993? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 20 of the question. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 252 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q In fact, your own documents show 3 this, don't they? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Prior to requesting an IRS records 10 check on Chris Emory, you knew that he was 11 not in need of any type of security clearance 12 update? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 14 of the question. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware that Chris Emory was 19 fired 10 weeks after you requested his IRS 20 records check? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 22 of the question. 253 1 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You are aware that Chris Emory was 5 fired on the orders of Hillary Clinton? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 7 the question. Lacks a factual basis. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I join both those 9 objections. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You were asked to obtain the FBI 14 and IRS information on Chris Emory by Hillary 15 Clinton, correct? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 Objection that it lacks a factual basis. 18 MS. GILES: I join those 19 objections. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 21 objections. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 254 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Hillary Clinton asked you to obtain 4 that information because she told you that 5 Chris Emory was disloyal? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 7 objection, lacks a factual basis. 8 MS. COHEN: I join those 9 objections. 10 MS. GILES: I join those 11 objections. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q She told you that she wanted to 18 gather FBI and IRS information on Chris Emory 19 to justify her ordering of his firing and she 20 told you -- 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 Objection that it lacks a factual basis. 255 1 MS. COHEN: Join. 2 MS. GILES: Join. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Hillary Clinton told you that she 8 knew, Hillary Clinton, herself, that her 9 ordering the IRS and FBI material on Chris 10 Emory was illegal? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 12 of that question. I object that it lacks any 13 factual basis. 14 MS. GILES: I join those 15 objections. 16 MS. COHEN: I join those objection. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 18 objections. 19 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q She told you that if you ever 256 1 disclosed this, that you would be in 2 jeopardy? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 4 the question. I object to the lack of a 5 factual basis. 6 MS. GILES: I join those 7 objections. 8 MS. COHEN: I join those 9 objections. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 11 objections. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q In fact, Hillary Clinton told you 16 that this entire scheme to gather FBI, IRS 17 and other Government information on 18 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 19 employees and not political appointees, she 20 knew that was illegal? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 22 objection lacks a factual basis. 257 1 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 2 MS. GILES: Join. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join both 4 objections. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q She told you if you ever revealed 9 information about that entire scheme, that 10 you would be in jeopardy? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 12 the question. I object it lacks a factual 13 basis. 14 MS. GILES: I join those 15 objections. 16 MS. COHEN: I join those 17 objections. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 19 objections. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 258 1 Q She told you members of your family 2 would be in jeopardy? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 4 and I object it lacks a factual basis. 5 MS. GILES: I join those 6 objections. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 8 objections. 9 MS. COHEN: I join those 10 objections. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q She ordered that your son, Nathan 15 Marceca, get a job in the White House to 16 induce you to keep quiet? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 18 of the question. I object that it lacks a 19 factual basis. 20 MS. GILES: I join those 21 objections. 22 MS. COHEN: I join those 259 1 objections. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 3 objections. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Is Hillary Clinton an honest 8 person? 9 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 MR. MUSE: Excuse me, Mr. Klayman. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm in the midst of 15 my questioning -- 16 MR. MUSE: The air conditioning 17 seems to be -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Fitton will -- 19 there it goes. 20 MR. MUSE: Thank you, Mr. Klayman. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You are aware that Betsy Pond 260 1 worked with Hillary Clinton when the two of 2 them worked on the Watergate committee back 3 in the early '70s? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 6 form. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that Bernard Nussbaum 11 also worked on that Watergate committee? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 13 form. 14 MS. COHEN: I object as to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware that Betsy Pond was 19 later hired at the request of Hillary Clinton 20 by Bernard Nussbaum -- 21 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 22 of the question. 261 1 Q In the White House? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: I object that it 3 lacks a factual basis. 4 MS. COHEN: I join in those 5 objections. 6 MS. GILES: I join in those 7 objections. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 9 objections. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 14 instructed Betsy Pond to load FBI summary 15 reports and other materials on to White House 16 computers concerning Republicans and others 17 who are not hold-over employees and not 18 political appointees of the Clinton 19 administration? 20 MS. GILES: Objection that the 21 question lacks any factual foundation. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I object that it 262 1 lacks any factual foundation and I object 2 also to the form of the question. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join in both those 4 objections. 5 MS. COHEN: I join in both those 6 objections. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 11 ordered that information, the FBI material 12 put on to computers by Betsy Pond be shared 13 with the Democratic National Committee? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 15 objection that it lacks a factual basis. 16 MS. GILES: I join those 17 objections. 18 MS. COHEN: I join those 19 objections. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 21 objections. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 263 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You are aware that William Kennedy 4 and Marcia Scott participated in this scheme 5 to put FBI materials on Republicans and 6 others who are not hold-over employees and 7 not political appointees of the Clinton 8 administration on White House computers? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 Objection that it lacks any factual basis. 11 MS. COHEN: I join those 12 objections. 13 MS. GILES: I join those 14 objections. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 16 objections. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You're aware that Linda Tripp 21 observed Bill Kennedy talking with Marcia 22 Scott where the two of them were discussing 264 1 loading up FBI materials on White House 2 computers on Republicans and others who are 3 not hold-overs and not political appointees 4 of the Clinton administration and sharing 5 that information with the Democratic National 6 Committee? 7 A I am invoking my constitutional -- 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 9 the question. Object that it lacks a factual 10 basis. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I join both those 12 objections. 13 MS. COHEN: I join both those 14 objections. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You have heard of a White House 19 computer system called WHODB? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 21 of the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I invoke my 265 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q WHODB was commonly referred to the 4 White House under the Clinton administration 5 as Big Brother? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm objecting to the 7 form of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q The WHODB or Big Brother computer 12 system was used to house information 13 concerning FBI material obtained concerning 14 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 15 employees and not political appointees of the 16 Clinton administration? 17 MS. GILES: Object as to form. I 18 object the question lacks any reasonable 19 factual foundation. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Join those 21 objections. 22 MS. COHEN: Join. 266 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 2 objections. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 7 possessed the code to access WHODB? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 9 of that question. I object that it lacks any 10 factual basis. 11 MS. GILES: I join those 12 objections. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 14 objections. 15 MS. COHEN: I join those 16 objections. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You are aware that William 21 Jefferson Clinton possessed the code to 22 access WHODB? 267 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. I object that it lacks any 3 factual basis. 4 MS. COHEN: I join those 5 objections. 6 MS. GILES: I join those objection. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 8 objections. 9 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You are aware that Bruce Lindsay 13 possessed the code called a password to 14 access WHODB? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You are aware that James Carville 21 possesses the code or password to access 22 WHODB? 268 1 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks any 2 factual foundation. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 4 objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that the reputation 9 of Vince Foster in the White House was that 10 of an extremely ethical lawyer? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 12 form. 13 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You are aware that Betsy Pond and 17 Debra Gorham believe that Vince Foster could 18 never do anything illegal? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 269 1 Q You're aware that they are both of 2 the opinion that if Vince Foster was ever 3 asked to do anything illegal, that he would 4 react in a very negative way? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You are aware that Vince Foster was 10 extremely depressed, you observed him being 11 extremely depressed before he died? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to the 13 form of the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You know that Craig Livingstone was 18 sent by Hillary Clinton to identify Vince 19 Foster's body in the morgue? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 21 of that question. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 270 1 objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you know why Craig Livingstone 6 went to identify Vince Foster's body in the 7 morgue? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know whether anyone killed 14 Vince Foster? 15 A I am invoking my constitutional 16 privilege. 17 Q Do you know whether he was killed 18 to keep him quiet concerning what he knew? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Did anyone at the White House ever 22 discuss the reasons for Vince Foster's death? 271 1 MS. GILES: Objection, relevance. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you ever hear anyone say 7 anything at the White House that Vince Foster 8 was killed to keep him quiet? 9 MS. GILES: Objection, irrelevance. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you ever hear anybody say at 14 the White House that Vince Foster killed 15 himself to protect Hillary Clinton? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 17 the question. Objection, lacks foundation. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Join in those 19 objections. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 272 1 Q Did you ever hear anyone say at the 2 White House that Vince Foster was killed or 3 killed himself to avoid having to talk about 4 the misuse of FBI files? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 6 of the question. Objection lacks foundation. 7 MR. WEINBERG: The question lacks 8 any reasonable factual basis, I join in both 9 those objections. 10 MS. GILES: I join those 11 objections. 12 MS. COHEN: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Feel free to give us 17 a proffer on why that lacks any reasonable 18 factual basis. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Keep asking 20 questions. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q The safe that was in, you are aware 273 1 that Vince Foster used a safe in Bernie 2 Nussbaum's office? 3 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 5 objection. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You are aware that Steve Neuwirth, 10 Clifford Sloan, Craig Livingstone had access 11 to the combination to that safe? 12 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 14 objection. 15 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, what were 16 those names, sir? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Steve Neuwirth? I'll ask them one 19 by one. 20 MS. COHEN: I'll object to the 21 form, one by one. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'll join those 274 1 objections. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Clifford Sloan? 6 MS. COHEN: Object to form. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Join. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Craig Livingstone? 12 MS. COHEN: Object to form. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Join. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You are aware that Bernard Nussbaum 18 authorized the use of requisition forms to 19 obtain files on Republicans and others who 20 were not hold-over employees and not 21 political appointees of the Clinton 22 administration, files meaning FBI files and 275 1 related materials? 2 MS. COHEN: I object to the form. 3 I object on the lack of a factual basis. 4 MS. GILES: I join those 5 objections. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 7 objections. 8 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that Bernard Nussbaum 12 was part of the scheme to obtain FBI summary 13 reports and other materials about Republicans 14 and others who were not hold-over employees 15 and not political appointees of the Clinton 16 administration at the White House? 17 MS. COHEN: I object to the form. 18 I object to the asking the question without 19 any factual basis. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 21 objections. 22 MS. GILES: I join in those 276 1 objections. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You are aware that Bernard 6 Nussbaum, Bill Kennedy and Craig Livingstone 7 have been threatened by people at the White 8 House to never discuss this scheme publicly 9 or they'd be retaliated against? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 11 of that question. I object also that it 12 lacks any factual basis. 13 MS. COHEN: I join in those 14 objections. 15 MS. GILES: I join in those 16 objections. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 18 objections. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you been offered a 277 1 Presidential pardon in exchange for your 2 keeping quiet about the obtaining of FBI 3 materials on Republicans and others who were 4 not hold-over employees and not political 5 appointees of the Clinton administration? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 7 of that question and I object also that it 8 lacks any factual basis. 9 MS. COHEN: I join in those 10 objections. 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know of anyone else having 14 been offered a Presidential pardon under 15 those circumstances? 16 A No. 17 Q Are you aware that Linda Tripp went 18 to Bruce Lindsay and told her that she had 19 seen FBI files of the travel office workers 20 and others in the White House counsel's 21 office? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 278 1 of the question. 2 MS. COHEN: Join in that objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are you aware that Bruce Lindsay 7 threatened Linda Tripp and told her talk like 8 that will get you destroyed? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 10 of the question. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Are you aware that Linda Tripp 16 believed that an accident could befall her as 17 a result of that conversation with Bruce 18 Lindsay? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 20 of the question. 21 MS. COHEN: I object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 279 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You participated in getting the FBI 4 file or summary reports or raw data on Linda 5 Tripp when you were working at the White 6 House? 7 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks any 8 reasonable factual foundation. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I join that 10 objection. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 12 objection. 13 MS. COHEN: I join that objection. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q In fact, you know of people who did 20 get Linda Tripp's FBI file and background 21 material? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 280 1 form. Objection that it lacks foundation. 2 MS. COHEN: I join those 3 objections. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 5 objections. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In fact, Linda Tripp's file was 10 ordered up at the request of Hillary Clinton, 11 correct? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of that question. I also object that it 14 lacks any factual basis. 15 MS. GILES: I join those 16 objections. 17 MS. COHEN: I join those 18 objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 281 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q In fact, Hillary Clinton 3 participated in preparing the list of files 4 that was used to obtain the FBI material 5 concerning the Republicans and others who 6 were not hold-over employees and not 7 political appointees in the Clinton 8 administration? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 10 of that question. I object also that it 11 lacks any factual basis. 12 MS. GILES: I join those 13 objections. 14 MS. COHEN: I join those 15 objections. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 17 objections. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You obtained FBI files and other 22 information at the request of Hillary Clinton 282 1 and employees that she thought were disloyal, 2 including but not limited to Linda Tripp, 3 Gary Aldrich, Chris Emory and Dennis 4 Sculimbrene? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 6 of that question. I object that it lacks any 7 factual basis. 8 MS. GILES: I join that objection. 9 MS. COHEN: I join that objection. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 11 objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Hillary Clinton told you that she 16 knew that this was not lawful, but she was 17 instructing you to do it in any event? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 19 of that question. I object that it lacks any 20 factual basis. 21 MS. COHEN: I join those 22 objections. 283 1 MS. GILES: I join those 2 objections. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 4 objections. 5 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 9 had control over the White House counsel's 10 office when you worked at the White House? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 12 of that question. I object also that it 13 lacks any factual basis. 14 MS. COHEN: I join in those 15 objections. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 17 objections. 18 MS. GILES: I join in those 19 objections. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 284 1 Q You are aware that Linda Tripp 2 believed that Hillary Clinton, quote, ruled 3 the school, end quote? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Hillary Clinton's reputation at the 10 White House when you worked there was that 11 Hillary Clinton ran the White House? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 13 of the question. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware that when you worked 19 for the White House, Hillary Clinton's 20 reputation at the White House was being, 21 quote, co-President, unquote? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 285 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 2 objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You are aware that Hillary 7 Clinton's reputation at the White House was 8 that she was the person that would get 9 involved in matters that frequently were not 10 legal? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 Objection lacks any factual basis. 14 MS. COHEN: I join those objection. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join both of those 16 objections. 17 MS. GILES: I join those 18 objections. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q When you worked at the White House, 286 1 Hillary Clinton's reputation was that if 2 there was something to be done with regard to 3 a political matter in terms of gathering 4 information on critics of the Clinton 5 administration, she would be in charge? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 Objection lacks foundation. 8 MS. GILES: I join those 9 objections. 10 MS. COHEN: I join those 11 objections. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q In fact, you're aware, given your 18 tenure at the White House, that employees 19 were not allowed to speak in common areas in 20 the presence of Ms. Clinton unless she gave 21 them her permission? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 287 1 objection that it lacks a factual basis. 2 MS. COHEN: I join those 3 objections. 4 MS. GILES: I join those 5 objections. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 7 objections. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 9 privilege, or my constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You're aware that the reasons for 12 that is that in the common areas of the White 13 House there are surveillances? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 Objection that it lacks a factual basis. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 17 objections. 18 MS. COHEN: I join in those 19 objections. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it necessary, 21 Mr. Muse, to open your mail during the 22 deposition, it's quite noisy, it is 288 1 distracting. 2 MR. MUSE: I didn't know I was 3 distracting you. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: It is, it's quite 5 loud. 6 MR. MUSE: I'll refrain from doing 7 so. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 10 constitutional privilege to the last 11 question. 12 The question was surveillance? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Yes, are you aware that the White 15 House, itself, has surveillance systems? 16 MS. GILES: Objection, irrelevance, 17 outside the scope of the Judge's orders. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Do you know whether there are White 22 House surveillance systems, video systems in 289 1 the common areas? 2 MS. GILES: Objection, outside the 3 scope of the Judge's orders. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you know whether there were 8 White House surveillance systems in the 9 office of personnel security, video systems? 10 MS. GILES: Objection, irrelevance, 11 outside the scope of the Judge's orders. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you ever hear anyone say, in 16 particular Craig Livingstone, that he 17 believed there was surveillance in the office 18 of White House personnel security? 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Do you know a Terry Good? 22 A I am invoking my constitutional 290 1 privilege. 2 Q Do you know whether FBI materials 3 on Republicans and others who were not 4 hold-over employees and not political 5 appointees in the Clinton administration were 6 stored under the supervision of Terry Good? 7 A I'm invoking my constitutional 8 privilege. 9 Q You are aware that Terry Good was, 10 from time to time, requested by Hillary 11 Clinton to send to her information in White 12 House files about critics of the Clinton 13 administration? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 15 of that question. I also object that it 16 lacks any factual basis. 17 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 18 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 291 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You are aware that Terry Good was 3 requested by the White House counsel's office 4 from time to time to send to it information 5 about critics of the Clinton administration 6 on material witnesses and legal proceedings 7 concerning the Clinton administration? 8 MS. COHEN: I object to the form of 9 the question. I object it lacks factual 10 basis. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 12 objections. 13 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You are aware that there was a safe 17 in the office of personnel security? 18 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 292 1 Q You're aware that it was frequently 2 left open while no one was in attendance? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 4 of the question. 5 MS. GILES: Join. 6 MS. COHEN: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You're aware that stored in that 11 safe was FBI background security information? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 13 of the question. 14 MS. COHEN: Join. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You're aware that among that FBI 19 background security information was 20 information concerning Republicans and others 21 who were not hold-over employees or political 22 appointees of the Clinton administration? 293 1 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 2 of the question. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You have knowledge that the 8 attaining of FBI files on Republicans and 9 others who are not hold-over employees or 10 political appointees of the Clinton 11 administration by the Clinton White House was 12 not a bureaucratic snafu? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form. 14 MS. COHEN: I object. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You discussed in and around the 21 time that it was discovered by the House 22 Government Reform and Oversight Committee 294 1 that FBI files on Republicans was obtained by 2 the White House, that the Clinton 3 administration alibi would be it was a, 4 quote, bureaucratic snafu, unquote? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 6 of the question and I object on the grounds 7 that you do not have a reasonable basis for 8 asking that question. 9 MS. COHEN: I join those 10 objections. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 12 MS. GILES: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You are aware that the White House 17 during the time you worked there obtained the 18 FBI file or summary material on chairman 19 William Clinger of the Government Reform and 20 Oversight Committee? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 Objection it lacks foundation. 295 1 MS. GILES: Join that objection. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I join both of those 3 objections. 4 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q In fact, Hillary Clinton ordered 9 you and Craig Livingstone to get that FBI 10 material on Clinger, correct? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 12 of that question. I object that it lacks any 13 factual basis whatsoever. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 15 objections. I mean this is getting bizarre, 16 really. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware that Linda Tripp has 19 testified that she saw an FBI file labeled 20 Clinger? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 22 of the question. Mischaracterizes testimony. 296 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 2 objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q In fact, you are aware that FBI 7 material on William Clinger was obtained by 8 the White House? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 Objection that it lacks a factual basis. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 12 objections. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You are aware that Clinger's file 17 was obtained by William Kennedy? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 19 objection lacks foundation. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 21 objections. 22 MS. COHEN: I join those 297 1 objections. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You are aware that Kennedy kept 6 that file in his office? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 8 lacks foundation. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I object on the 10 grounds of form and on the grounds of there's 11 no reasonable basis for asking that question. 12 MS. COHEN: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You're aware that Bernard Nussbaum 18 and Vince Foster worked in the west wing of 19 the White House, correct? 20 MS. COHEN: Object as to form. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Join in that 22 objection. 298 1 THE WITNESS: I invoke my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You're aware that William Kennedy 5 worked in the OEOB? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 7 form. 8 MS. COHEN: I object as to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I invoke my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Were you ever in the office of 13 Bernard Nussbaum at the White House? 14 A I invoke my constitutional 15 privilege. 16 Q Were you ever in the office of 17 Vince Foster at the White House? 18 A I invoke my constitutional 19 privilege. 20 Q Were you ever in the suite of 21 offices related to Bernard Nussbaum's office 22 and Vince Foster's office in the west wing? 299 1 A I invoke my constitutional 2 privilege. 3 Q Were you ever in the suite of 4 offices occupied by Bill Kennedy in the OEOB? 5 A I invoke my constitutional 6 privilege. 7 Q Seated outside of Bill Kennedy's 8 office in the OEOB was Betsy Pond, correct? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, form. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Working with Betsy Pond for some of 14 the time was a Stephen Waudby? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, form. 16 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Stephen Waudby was a very young 20 employee who was just an assistant to Betsy 21 Pond, correct? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 300 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Betsy Pond was, in effect, the 5 office manager of the suite of offices 6 occupied by Bill Kennedy in the OEOB? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object to form. 8 THE WITNESS: Invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q In that suite of offices with Bill 12 Kennedy, Betsy Pond, Stephen Waudby was 13 Cheryl Mills? 14 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks 17 factual foundation. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Beth Nolan? 22 MS. COHEN: Object to form. 301 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 2 objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You're aware that when Betsy Pond, 7 Betsy Pond previously worked as the executive 8 assistant of Bernard Nussbaum in the West 9 Wing? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You're aware she was later 17 transferred by Bernard Nussbaum over to the 18 OEOB to work for Bill Kennedy? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. 20 MS. COHEN: Objection. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 22 form. 302 1 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You're aware that Linda Tripp took 5 Betsy Pond's place as Bernard Nussbaum's 6 executive assistant? 7 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In the West Wing? 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 11 objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I invoke my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You're aware that Linda Tripp and 16 Betsy Pond didn't get along very well? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 18 form. 19 MS. COHEN: I join that objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 303 1 Q You're aware that one of the 2 reasons that they didn't get along very well 3 is because Linda Tripp didn't think that 4 Betsy Pond behaved professionally? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 6 form. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You're aware that on one such 11 instance, Linda Tripp found personal affects 12 and panty hose of Betsy Pond in the files of 13 Bernard Nussbaum and threw them on the floor? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 15 form. 16 MS. GILES: Mischaracterizes the 17 record, irrelevant. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Which part? 19 MS. GILES: Whether they were 20 Mr. Nussbaum's files or not. Relevancy 21 objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 304 1 Q Did you ever see Betsy Pond's panty 2 hose on the floor in the West Wing? 3 A I'm invoking my constitutional 4 privilege. 5 Q You are aware that Linda Tripp, 6 from working with her, was someone of very 7 high professional standards? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You are aware that the reason Linda 13 Tripp replaced Betsy Pond as Bernard 14 Nussbaum's executive assistant is because 15 Linda Tripp had a reputation of being more 16 competent than Betsy Pond? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 18 form. 19 MS. COHEN: I object as to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 305 1 Q You're aware that Betsy Pond 2 expressed to you extreme dislike towards 3 Linda Tripp because she had been replaced by 4 Linda Tripp as Nussbaum's executive 5 assistant? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to form 7 and if I heard you correctly, you have no 8 reasonable basis for asking that question. 9 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 11 MS. COHEN: Join. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q It was the reputation in the office 16 that Linda Tripp was more competent than 17 Betsy Pond? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to 19 form. 20 MS. COHEN: Object as to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 306 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You're aware that when Betsy Pond 3 was transferred to work with Kennedy in the 4 OEOB, she took the computer that she was 5 using over to the OEOB? 6 A I'm invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 Q You're aware that computer had 9 previously been used by Debra Gorham? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You're aware that it was that 15 computer which Betsy Pond used to load up FBI 16 files on Republicans and others who were not 17 hold-over employees and not political 18 appointees of the Clinton administration? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to the 20 form. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 307 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You're aware that Betsy Pond 3 complained that she had to load up so many 4 files that her hands started to hurt? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You're aware that computer had to 10 be accessed through a pass code? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You're aware that there was 16 information on that computer that was 17 encrypted? 18 MR. WEINBERG: I object as to form 19 and you have no reasonable basis for thinking 20 this witness would have any information on 21 any of these so-called line of questions and 22 I object on that basis. 308 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You are aware that Linda Tripp saw 5 on that computer encrypted files concerning 6 tainted blood? 7 MR. WEINBERG: I have to object as 8 to form and you have no reasonable basis to, 9 factual basis for asking that question of 10 this witness. 11 MS. GILES: I join those 12 objections. 13 MS. COHEN: I join those 14 objections. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Weinberg, if you 16 had an opportunity to review our web site, we 17 understand that you do review that from time 18 to time, you may have seen the factual basis 19 for that. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I don't see any 21 factual basis for you thinking that this 22 witness would know anything about that. 309 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You are aware that Linda Tripp 4 testified to that effect, correct? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I object to that 6 question as to form and you have no 7 reasonable basis to ask that question of this 8 witness. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Now you are aware that Debra Gorham 11 also loaded up FBI information on to a White 12 House computer? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Same objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You know Debra Gorham, don't you? 18 A I am invoking my constitutional 19 privilege. 20 Q Debra Gorham worked for Vince 21 Foster, correct? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 310 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q She also worked for Bill Kennedy, 5 correct? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q In fact, two other computers in the 11 OEOB were used to load up FBI files on 12 Republicans and others that weren't hold-over 13 employees or political appointees in the 14 Clinton administration? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 Lacks a factual basis. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 18 objections. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Betsy Pond identified to you or 311 1 others that the files on her desk contained 2 FBI material? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 4 of that question. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You did see files on Ms. Pond's 9 desk? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 11 of that question. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q From Ms. Pond's desk at the OEOB, 16 it was possible to look in to Bill Kennedy's 17 office when the door was open, correct? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 19 of that question. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 312 1 Q In looking in to Bill Kennedy's 2 office, you could see stacks of files on the 3 floor and on tables? 4 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 5 of that question. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q In fact, the files were stacked 11 high off the floor, sometimes even waist 12 high? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 16 objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You are aware that those files 21 contained FBI materials on Republicans and 22 others who were not hold-overs or political 313 1 appointees of the Clinton administration? 2 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 3 of that question. You have absolutely no 4 reasonable factual basis upon which to ask 5 that question. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a continuing 7 frivolous objection, but I'd prefer just to 8 move on, so we'll just note it for the 9 record. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You are aware that Bill Kennedy 14 handled FBI materials on Republicans and 15 others who are not hold-over employees and 16 not political appointees by himself? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 18 of the question. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Join the objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 314 1 Q You're aware that he actually 2 prepared the file folders to put these FBI 3 materials in? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 5 of the question. 6 MS. COHEN: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that he typed the 11 labels for these file folders himself? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 14 objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You're aware that these files were 19 sometimes housed not just in his office, but 20 in safes outside of his office? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 22 of the question. 315 1 MS. COHEN: Object to form. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You are aware that the reason that 7 he handled these materials when they came in 8 to the office was because he didn't want 9 other people knowing about all of the 10 information he was gathering on Republicans 11 and others who were not hold-over employees 12 and not political appointees of the Clinton 13 administration? 14 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 15 Objection as to any factual foundation. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 17 MS. COHEN: I join those 18 objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 316 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You are aware that Bill Kennedy 3 sometimes showed the FBI material on 4 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 5 employees and not political appointees to 6 Bernard Nussbaum, Vince Foster, Cheryl Mills, 7 Bruce Lindsay and others? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 9 the question. Objection that it lacks a 10 factual basis. 11 MS. COHEN: I join in those 12 objections. 13 MS. GILES: Join in those 14 objection. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 16 objections. 17 THE WITNESS: I invoke my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You're aware that Bill Kennedy 21 sometimes made photocopies of that FBI 22 material? 317 1 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 2 of the question and once again, you have no 3 reasonable factual basis to ask that question 4 of this witness. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You're aware that once FBI 10 materials come over from the FBI in terms of 11 background security materials, that 12 information gets archived at the White House? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 14 of the question. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You're aware that once FBI 19 background security materials come over from 20 the FBI to the White House, that those 21 materials never go back to the FBI? 22 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 318 1 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 2 objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q In fact, you're aware that of 7 the 900 or so files that were obtained on 8 Republicans and others who were not 9 hold-overs and not political appointees, that 10 information, to this day, is at the White 11 House? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 13 of the question. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 15 MS. COHEN: Join. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You're aware that information was 20 used when Republicans and others that were 21 not hold-over employees and not political 22 appointees during the recent Lewinsky scandal 319 1 throughout 1998? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 4 Objection lacks any reasonable factual 5 foundation. 6 MS. COHEN: I join those 7 objections. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I join both of those 9 objections. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You're aware that information was 14 used at the direction of Hillary Clinton? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 16 of that question. I object that it lacks any 17 factual basis. 18 MS. GILES: Join that objection. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. 21 MS. COHEN: I join those 22 objections. 320 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You're aware that information was 5 used at the direction of William Jefferson 6 Clinton? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 8 of the question. I object that the question 9 lacks any factual basis. 10 MS. GILES: Join. 11 MS. COHEN: I join in those 12 objections. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 14 objections. 15 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You are aware that Bill Kennedy 19 could get FBI raw data on individuals by 20 simply making a call to the FBI? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 22 of the question. 321 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You are aware that for Bill Kennedy 5 or others in the White House counsel's office 6 to get FBI raw data from the FBI, you didn't 7 even need to fill out a written requisition? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 Fifth Amendment privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You're aware that there were no 14 procedures, written procedures to requisition 15 FBI material on individuals -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q While you worked at the White 19 House? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, object to 21 the form. 22 MS. COHEN: Object to the form. 322 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You, Anthony Marceca, from time to 5 time called the FBI and got FBI raw data on 6 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 7 employees and not political appointees of the 8 Clinton administration? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Is it your opinion that in 14 allegedly not supervising Bill Kennedy and 15 Vince Foster, Bernard Nussbaum was reckless? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 17 MS. GILES: Join. 18 MS. COHEN: Join in that. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 323 1 Q You are aware that Bernard Nussbaum 2 has testified that he really didn't know what 3 Foster and Kennedy were doing with FBI 4 material? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 6 MS. COHEN: I object to the form. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Join the objection. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that is Nussbaum's 12 position, correct? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 14 MS. COHEN: I object to the form. 15 MS. GILES: Join. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q It was the reputation of Nussbaum 21 at the White House that he was reckless and 22 grossly negligent? 324 1 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 2 MS. COHEN: I object to the form. 3 MS. GILES: Join. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Showing you what I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Can we take a short 11 break for the witness? 12 (Recessed 4:07 p.m.) 13 (Reconvene 4:22 p.m.) 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask 15 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 16 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 17 No. 6 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you seen the documents that 21 were attached as Exhibit 6 before? I am 22 invoking my constitutional privilege. These 325 1 are requisition forms for FBI materials, they 2 span Bates Numbers 3484, 3209, 3191, 3385, 3 3554, 3165, 3202, 3433, 3322, 3383, 3265, 4 3555, 3155, 326, 3555, 3155. 5 The name Bernard Nussbaum appears 6 on all these documents; do you see that? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Nussbaum ordered his name to be 9 placed on these documents, did he not? 10 MR. MUSE: Objection to the form. 11 MS. COHEN: Join that objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q His name was placed on these 16 documents with his expressed knowledge and 17 consent? 18 MR. MUSE: Objection as to form. 19 MS. GILES: Join. 20 MS. COHEN: Join. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 326 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q In fact, you employed a role in 3 typing his name on some of these documents? 4 MR. MUSE: Objection as to form. 5 MS. COHEN: Objection as to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Did you ever obtain the FBI file of 10 James Baker? 11 A I am invoking my constitutional 12 privilege. 13 Q Hillary Clinton ordered the 14 obtaining of the FBI file on James Baker, did 15 she not? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 17 of the question. I object to the absence of 18 any factual basis for the question. 19 MS. GILES: I join those 20 objections. 21 MR. MUSE: I join those objections. 22 MS. COHEN: I join those 327 1 objections. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional amendment. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q She told you the reason she wanted 6 Baker's FBI materials was to retaliate for 7 his having played a role in getting the State 8 Department passport file of her husband, Bill 9 Clinton? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 11 of the question and I object that the 12 question lacks any factual basis. 13 MS. GILES: I join in those 14 objections. 15 MS. COHEN: I join in those 16 objections. 17 MR. MUSE: I join. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q In fact, she told you she didn't 22 care whether she was violating the law or 328 1 not, that she was going to seek revenge 2 against James Baker? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 4 of the question. I object that the question 5 lacks any factual basis. 6 MS. GILES: I join those 7 objections. 8 MS. COHEN: I join those 9 objections. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 11 objections. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q In fact, the White House let it be 16 known to James Baker that it had his file and 17 would use it if he ever said anything 18 negative about the White House? 19 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks any 20 reasonable factual foundation. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: I join that 22 objection, also object to the form of the 329 1 question. 2 MR. WEINBERG: I join both of those 3 objections. 4 MS. COHEN: I join those 5 objections. 6 THE WITNESS: I invoke my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In fact, based on your knowledge in 10 working at the White House, the White House 11 has advised some of the people whose FBI 12 materials that it obtained, those Republicans 13 and others who weren't hold-over employees 14 and weren't political appointees, that it had 15 FBI data on them and would use that FBI data 16 if they ever said or did anything adverse to 17 the Clinton White House? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 19 of that question. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I join the objection. 21 MS. GILES: Join. 22 MS. COHEN: Join. 330 1 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q In fact, you are aware that the 5 White House made it known to certain 6 Congressmen and Senators on Capitol Hill that 7 if they proceeded with the impeachment 8 proceedings of William Jefferson Clinton and 9 convicted him in the Senate, that information 10 from those FBI files and materials would be 11 released to destroy their reputations? 12 MS. GILES: Object to the form and 13 I object that question lacks any reasonable 14 factual foundation. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 16 MS. COHEN: Join. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I join both of those 18 objections. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You are aware of a scheme in the 331 1 White House to blackmail Republicans, are you 2 not? 3 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 4 of the question and I object to questions on 5 the grounds that it has no reasonable factual 6 basis. 7 MS. GILES: I join those 8 objections. 9 MS. COHEN: Join. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q To render them impotent to take any 15 meaningful adverse action against the 16 Clintons or their administration? 17 MS. GILES: Object to form and I 18 object the question lacks any factual 19 foundation. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 21 MS. COHEN: Join. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 332 1 objections. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You are aware, you know a Mary 6 Anderson; do you not? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the 8 form of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You are aware that Ms. Anderson 13 testified in September of 1993 that she and 14 other members of the White House office of 15 personnel security recognized that there were 16 prominent Republicans on the list Mr. Marceca 17 was using for project update? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 333 1 Q Ms. Anderson's testimony on this 2 point is correct, is it not? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 4 of the question. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 6 MS. COHEN: Join. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q According to Ms. Anderson, she, 11 Livingstone, Marceca, yourself, Lisa Wetzl 12 removed prominent Republican names from the 13 list Mr. Marceca was using, you're aware she 14 testified to that effect, correct? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 16 of the question. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q That's a true statement by 22 Ms. Anderson, is it not? 334 1 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You're aware that Ms. Anderson 7 testified that she vividly recalls removing 8 the names of Mssrs. Baker and Fitzwater from 9 the list? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You're aware that she also 15 testified that Marceca, yourself, knew these 16 files should not be requested? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q These last statements that 335 1 Ms. Anderson vividly recalls removing the 2 names of Mssrs. Baker and Fitzwater from the 3 list and that you, Tony Marceca, knew these 4 files should not be requested, that is 5 accurate and correct testimony; is it not? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to show you what 10 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the next 11 exhibit. 12 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 13 No. 7 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Showing you Exhibit 7, you've seen 17 this document before, have you not, 18 Mr. Marceca? 19 A No, I have not. 20 Q It consists of BWN numbers, it 21 consists of Bernie Nussbaum 390, 391, 392 22 and 393. This is a document which was 336 1 produced by Bernard Nussbaum in this case. 2 Take an opportunity and review this 3 document and tell me whether anything written 4 in this document is incorrect? 5 A I am invoking my constitutional 6 privilege. 7 Q Tell me whether, this document 8 recounts testimony of certain people who 9 testified with regard to the issue of the 10 acquisition of FBI files by the White House, 11 correct? 12 A I am invoking my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 Q Tell me whether any of the 15 renditions of testimony set forth in this 16 document, Exhibit 7, are untrue? 17 A I am invoking my constitutional 18 privilege. 19 Q Tell me whether the underlying 20 facts that forms the basis of the testimony 21 is untrue? 22 A I am invoking my constitutional 337 1 privilege. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 3 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 4 Exhibit 8. 5 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 6 No. 8 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Exhibit 8 is an article, "White 10 House Contradicted On FBI Files, Ex-aide 11 Tells Panel Staff Knew of Checks On GOP 12 Officials," by George Lardner Junior, dated 13 October 5, 1996. 14 Have you ever seen this article 15 before? 16 A I'm -- no, I didn't, I have not. 17 Q I turn your attention to the second 18 page, two, three pages, fourth paragraph 19 down, Anderson said, talking about Mary 20 Anderson, "She pointed them out to Craig and 21 Tony, and we said, well, obviously, we need 22 to go through this list. She said she 338 1 particularly remembered striking out Baker's 2 and Fitzwater's names with a black magic 3 marker, because there was a big joke that 4 those were the only names I could remember." 5 These statements by Mary Anderson 6 are true; are they not? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Turn to the next page, the second 13 paragraph down, page 3, "On the day of the 14 firings or shortly thereafter, she said, 15 Livingstone 'discussed' the travel workers' 16 security files over the phone with someone. 17 'With who, I don't remember,' she said. 18 'Craig was talking on the phone, and he 19 asked -- I can't remember it, I can't 20 remember if it was me or Lisa, I believe it 21 was me -- to go and pull these files, and I 22 gave them to Craig.' Anderson said, 'That's 339 1 all I remember.'" 2 You remember Mary Anderson saying 3 those things; don't you? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q These statements by Mary Anderson 9 are true, are they not? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you 14 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 15 the next exhibit. 16 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 17 No. 9 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q This is a document on the 21 letterhead of the Executive Office of the 22 President, memorandum for John D. Podesta, 340 1 assistant to the President, staff secretary 2 from Mary Coutts, Beck acting directing, 3 personnel management division, official 4 personnel folders. 5 Have you ever seen this document 6 before? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Is the information contained in 9 this document true? 10 A I'm invoking my constitutional 11 privilege. 12 Q You are aware, are you not, 13 Mr. Marceca, that John Podesta was involved 14 in this scheme to misuse FBI material on 15 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 16 employees and not political appointees of the 17 Clinton administration during the Clinton 18 administration? 19 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks 20 foundation. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 22 and object on the basis that you have no, 341 1 object on the ground you have no reasonable 2 basis to ask that question. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 4 MS. COHEN: I join the objections. 5 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that John Podesta 9 participated in the unlawful review and 10 misuse of information covered by the Privacy 11 Act involving travel office staff that was 12 fired during the Clinton administration? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You are aware that among that 18 Privacy Act protected material were official 19 personnel folders of the seven White House 20 travel office personnel that were fired? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 342 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You're aware that these official 4 personnel folders were delivered to Cliff 5 Sloan in the White House counsel's office? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 11 ordered the release of letters written by 12 Kathleen Willey to President Clinton stored 13 in official White House files, correct? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join that 16 objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 21 played a role -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just take a 343 1 quick break here. 2 (Recessed 4:40 p.m.) 3 (Reconvene 4:41 p.m.) 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 6 ordered the release by the Department of 7 Defense of information contained in Privacy 8 Act protected material concerning Linda 9 Tripp? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 11 of that question. I object further that it 12 lacks any factual basis. 13 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 14 MS. COHEN: Join those objections. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 16 objections. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You are aware that the White House 21 ordered Ken Bacon, Press Secretary of the 22 Pentagon, to release information from the 344 1 personnel file of Linda Tripp to Jane Mayer 2 of the New Yorker magazine? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 5 and you have no reasonable factual basis to 6 ask that question of this witness. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Please respond. 9 A I am invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q While you were at the White House, 12 you are aware that information contained in 13 Government files was released on individuals 14 considered to be critics of the Clinton 15 administration to the Washington Post? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 17 form. Objection lacks foundation. 18 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 20 objections. 21 MS. COHEN: I join. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 345 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You are aware that information from 4 FBI files obtained from the FBI on 5 Republicans and others who were not hold-over 6 employees and not political appointees of the 7 Clinton administration were released by the 8 White House to the Washington Post during the 9 Clinton administration? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 Lacks foundation. 12 MS. COHEN: Same. 13 MS. GILES: Join those objections. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 15 objections. 16 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you know whether or not any such 20 material was released to the editor of the 21 national desk of the Washington Post, Bill 22 Hamilton? 346 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 2 objection that it lacks foundation. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You are aware that Bill Hamilton is 7 the husband of Jane Mayer? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Pardon? 10 MR. WEINBERG: I objected as to 11 form. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q When you were at the White House, 16 were you aware that Leonard Downing, the 17 executive editor of the Washington Post, 18 frequently called Bruise Lindsay to tell 19 Bruise Lindsay about stories concerning the 20 Clinton administration scandals which the 21 Washington Post was writing but had not yet 22 published? 347 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 2 lacks foundation. 3 MS. COHEN: I join. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 5 objections. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q When you worked at the White House, 10 were you aware that the Washington Post was 11 represented by the law firm which represents 12 Bill and Hillary Clinton? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 15 objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Are you aware that law firm employs 20 investigators on behalf of the Clintons who 21 have been alleged to have gathered 22 information on political adversaries of the 348 1 Clintons to use against those adversaries? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Were you ever instructed by Hillary 8 Clinton to release FBI material or other 9 material covered by the Privacy Act to the 10 Washington Post? 11 MR. WEINBERG: I object on the 12 ground that you have no reasonable factual 13 basis to ask that question. 14 MS. GILES: I join that objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you ever meet with private 19 investigators when you were working at the 20 White House? 21 A I'm invoking my constitutional 22 privilege. 349 1 Q When you were working at the White 2 House, were you aware that the Washington 3 Post was one means used by the White House to 4 disseminate information from FBI files and 5 other Privacy Act protected material in to 6 the public domain? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 8 MS. GILES: Join. 9 MS. COHEN: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Are you aware that the law firm of 14 Williams and Connolly represents the 15 Washington Post? 16 A I'm invoking my constitutional 17 privilege. 18 Q Have you ever met anyone by the 19 name of Dan Mulday? 20 A I'm invoking my constitutional 21 privilege. 22 Q In the last year information has 350 1 been published in the Washington Post and 2 other publications about the sex lives of 3 Republican Congressmen; are you aware of 4 that? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to the 6 form. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you have any information as to 11 whether or not that information came from the 12 FBI files which you and others obtained -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q On Republicans that were not 16 hold-over employees and not political 17 appointees of the Clinton administration? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, object as 19 to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you what 351 1 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the next 2 exhibit. 3 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 4 No. 10 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you seen Exhibit 10 before? 8 A Can you give me a minute to review 9 it, sir? 10 Q Certainly. 11 A I'm invoking the constitutional 12 privilege on that, sir. 13 Q This is a list of the files of 14 Republicans and others who generally speaking 15 were not hold-over employees and not 16 political appointees of the Clinton 17 administration which you participated in 18 obtaining from the FBI for the White House? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Is that a question? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 352 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In fact, this isn't a complete list 4 of the files of Republicans and others who 5 weren't hold-over employees and who weren't 6 political appointees, files meaning FBI files 7 and materials which you and others obtained 8 from the FBI on behalf of the White House? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MR. WEINBERG: If that was a 11 question, I join in the objection. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q This list is not complete with 17 regard to Republican FBI materials that you 18 and others at the White House obtained during 19 the Clinton administration? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 353 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q In fact, there were many more files 3 of Republicans, FBI files and raw data 4 summary reports which you and others at the 5 White House obtained on Republicans? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 7 of the question. Objection that it lacks a 8 factual basis. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking the 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q The reason that this is an 15 incomplete list is because as William Kennedy 16 testified, the White House could obtain FBI 17 data on individuals by simply calling the 18 FBI, there didn't need to be anything in 19 writing, correct? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 21 of the question. 22 MS. COHEN: Object to the form. 354 1 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q In fact, because of that there 5 would be no trace of FBI materials obtained 6 on Republicans? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q One such Republican whose name 13 isn't on the list was an individual by the 14 name of Chris Emory, correct? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MS. COHEN: Object to the form. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I join the 18 objection. 19 MS. GILES: Join. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 355 1 Q You are aware in talking to Hillary 2 Clinton that Emory was fired because he was 3 observed by Hillary Clinton talking to 4 Barbara Bush on the telephone? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form, 6 objection lacks foundation. 7 MS. COHEN: I join. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 9 objections. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q During the time that you worked in 14 the White House, you are aware that private 15 investigators of the Clintons entered the 16 White House and were given access to FBI 17 materials about Republicans and others who 18 were not hold-over employees and not 19 political appointees to the Clinton 20 administration? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 Objection lacks a factual basis. 356 1 MS. COHEN: I join. 2 MS. GILES: I join in those 3 objections. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 5 objections. 6 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Have you ever met an individual by 10 the name of Betsy Wright? 11 A I am invoking my constitutional 12 privilege. 13 Q Have you ever met an individual by 14 the name of Jack Palladino? 15 A I'm invoking my constitutional 16 privilege. 17 Q Have you ever met an individual by 18 the name of Anthony Pellicano? 19 A I'm invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Have you ever met an individual by 22 the name of Larry Potts? 357 1 A I'm invoking my constitutional 2 privilege. 3 Q Are you aware that all of these 4 people have been retained by the Clintons to 5 do private investigation? 6 A I'm invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 9 of the question. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Now you've been in the office of 12 William Kennedy when he was at the White 13 House, correct? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q When you were in the office of 20 William Kennedy, you saw FBI materials 21 concerning Billy Dale? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 358 1 MS. COHEN: Object. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Bill Kennedy, himself? 7 MS. COHEN: Object to the form of 8 the question. 9 MR. WEINBERG: What is the 10 question? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just repeating 12 the question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When you were in the office of 15 William Kennedy, you saw FBI material 16 concerning William Kennedy, himself? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You're aware that William Kennedy 359 1 called up his own FBI material? 2 A I'm invoking my constitutional 3 privilege. 4 Q You're aware that this FBI material 5 was stored in the safe in Nussbaum's office? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 7 of the question. 8 MS. COHEN: Object to the form of 9 the question. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q When you're in Bill Kennedy's 15 office, you saw FBI material concerning Chris 16 Emory? 17 MS. COHEN: Object. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 360 1 Q Same question with regard to 2 representative William Clinger? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 4 of the question. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Same question with regard to Debra 9 Ann Amend? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 11 of the question. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Same question with regard to David 17 Quinton Bates? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 19 MS. COHEN: Join. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 361 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Same question with regard to 3 Barnaby Lair Brasseus? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 7 constitutional privilege. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Same question with regard to Ann 10 Kathay Brock? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 12 of the question. 13 MS. COHEN: Join. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Is Ann Brock related to William 18 Brock? 19 A I'm invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 Q Do you know who William Brock is? 22 A I'm invoking my constitutional 362 1 privilege. 2 Q Same question with regard to 3 William James Canary? 4 A I'm invoking my constitutional 5 privilege. 6 Q Same question with regard to Terry 7 Warren Good? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Just so I'm sure, 9 the same question is do you know? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, when you were in 11 Kennedy's office, did you see FBI material 12 about these people. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't realize 14 that was the same question. Object to the 15 form of each of those questions. 16 THE WITNESS: I invoke my 17 constitutional privileges. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Same question with respect to 20 Maureen Hudson? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 22 of the question. 363 1 MS. GILES: Join. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Same question with regard to Susana 6 Ludwig? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object. 8 MS. COHEN: Join. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Same question with regard to Al 13 Nagy? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 15 of the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Same question with respect to David 20 Michael Carney? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 22 of the question. 364 1 MS. COHEN: Join. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In fact, you obtained FBI material 6 on these people from the FBI for William 7 Kennedy? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 9 of the question. 10 MS. COHEN: Join. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 12 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You did that when William Kennedy 16 was acting at the direction of Hillary 17 Clinton? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 19 the question. It lacks any factual basis, as 20 well. 21 MS. COHEN: Join. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 365 1 objections. 2 MS. GILES: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Mr. Marceca, if you could, would 7 you like to exonerate Hillary Clinton from 8 any involvement in this FBI files matter? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 11 form. Lacks factual basis. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 13 objections. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Was the obtaining of FBI material 18 on Republicans and others that weren't 19 hold-overs and weren't political appointees 20 to the Clinton administration the reason you 21 were hired to work at the White House? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 366 1 of the question. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 3 MS. COHEN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Was the obtaining of FBI materials 8 on Republicans and others that weren't 9 hold-overs and weren't political appointees 10 to the Clinton administration the reason that 11 you worked at the White House? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 13 of the question. 14 MS. COHEN: Join. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q In fact, you were never formally 19 hired at the White House, were you? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 21 of the question. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm invoking my 367 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In fact, you were dismissed from 4 the White House, weren't you? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 6 of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q In fact, you were dismissed because 11 people had told you that you had become a 12 liability? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 14 of the question. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q In fact, you were dismissed because 19 it was discovered that you had things in your 20 own FBI material which prevented you from 21 ever being hired full time? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 368 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In fact, Craig Livingstone told you 6 that, correct? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q It was at that point that you asked 13 to see your own FBI material that had been 14 obtained by the White House? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q It was at that point that Craig 21 Livingstone gave that material to you? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 369 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You were aware that information 6 from your own FBI file was being used by the 7 White House to prevent you from getting 8 permanent employment there? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q That was the reason that you asked 15 Livingstone to give you your FBI material? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You inspected that FBI material on 21 you, correct? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 370 1 of the question. 2 MS. COHEN: Join. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q The time that you did so, you knew 8 that was not legal? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 10 MS. GILES: Join. 11 MS. COHEN: Join. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Craig Livingstone told you that it 16 was not legal? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 19 constitutional privilege. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q But Craig Livingstone never did 22 anything to prevent you from inspecting your 371 1 FBI material? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 3 MS. COHEN: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Inspecting the FBI material at the 8 White House obtained on you, you obtained the 9 names of persons who had said things that 10 were negative to you? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You used the information in that 17 FBI material and the names of these persons 18 to bring a lawsuit against these persons? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 372 1 Q The lawyer who brought that lawsuit 2 on your behalf knew that you had obtained 3 that information from your own FBI material? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Who was that lawyer? 9 A I'm invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q Or lawyers? 12 MR. WEINBERG: He answered the 13 question. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You've lied under oath about this 16 entire sequence of events in reviewing your 17 own FBI material? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 19 of the question. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Correct? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 373 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q In fact, your story is that the 6 file concerning you accidentally fell off of 7 Livingstone's desk, correct? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q That you just happened to pick it 14 up and look through it? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Do you reasonably expect anyone to 21 believe that story? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 374 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Where are you currently employed? 6 A United States Army. 7 Q Where in the United States Army? 8 A At Fort Belvoir. 9 Q What's your position? 10 A Special agent. 11 Q When did you get that job? 12 A 1988. 13 Q Are you actively working as a 14 special agent for the United States Army? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Who is your supervisor? 17 A Roger Anderberg. 18 Q How's that spelled? 19 A A-n-d-e-r-b-e-r-g. 20 Q What are your duties and 21 responsibilities? 22 A I'm a criminal investigator. 375 1 Q Since this FBI file matter has 2 arisen, have you ever been put on leave of 3 absence? 4 A No. 5 Q Have you ever received any negative 6 comments in job reviews? 7 MR. WEINBERG: What time period are 8 you talking about? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Any time. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Ask the question 11 again, please. 12 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q During the time after the FBI files 15 issue became known publicly, have you ever 16 been reviewed in any of your functions in 17 working for the Army? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Has anyone written any negative 20 comments or critiques about your job 21 performance? 22 MR. WEINBERG: During the time 376 1 since? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Since May 30th 3 of 1996. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Has anyone in the Army ever 7 questioned you about your activities at the 8 Clinton White House? 9 A I'm invoking my privilege to the 10 constitutional Fifth Amendment. 11 Q Since May 30th of 1996, have you 12 received a promotion? 13 A I've received increases. I've 14 received step increases. I don't -- I've 15 received step increases, yes. 16 Q What was, what were you making in 17 terms of your salary on or about May 30th 18 of 1996? 19 MR. WEINBERG: What is the 20 relevance of these questions, if I can ask? 21 Step increases are something people just get 22 by just being there. 377 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Please answer. 3 A I think I was making around 68,000. 4 Q How much are you making now? 5 A I think it's close to 80. 6 Q Are you scheduled to receive 7 another step increase any time in the next 8 six months? 9 A Probably, I don't know. I really 10 don't know for sure. I would guess I would 11 be. 12 Q Mr., how is his name, Roger 13 Anderberg? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Who else has been your supervisor 16 since May 30th of 1996? 17 A Previous to Mr. Anderberg there was 18 Ken Hill. 19 Q What was his title? 20 A Special agent in charge. 21 Q What was Mr. Anderberg's title? 22 A He's acting special agent in 378 1 charge. 2 Q Any other supervisors that you 3 worked with? 4 A No, those have been my two SACs. 5 Q About at the time you worked at the 6 White House you were detailed from the Army 7 to work at the White House, correct? 8 A I'm invoking my constitutional 9 privilege. 10 Q At the time you worked at the White 11 House, you were still employed by the Army? 12 A I'm invoking my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 Q At the time you worked at the White 15 House, you were working under the direction 16 of Mr. Ken Hill, correct? 17 A I'm invoking my constitutional 18 privilege. 19 Q Ken Hill recommended that you 20 receive step increases, correct? 21 A I'm invoking my constitutional 22 privilege. 379 1 Q So did Roger Anderberg? 2 MR. WEINBERG: What period of time 3 are you talking about now? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Any time after he 5 left the White House. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think you 7 understand what a step increase is, I think 8 you just get the step increase. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well wait, that's not 10 necessary. I was a Federal employee. 11 MR. WEINBERG: So you're asking a 12 question and you were a Federal employee, you 13 should know that the -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't provide 15 testimony. If you want to spew forth, I'll 16 give you a whole time, I'll give you whatever 17 you want after we are finished. You can make 18 any rhetorical statement, any political 19 statement. Any statement you want. You can 20 even attack me again, but I'll give you the 21 time at the end. 22 MR. WEINBERG: You're the one for 380 1 political statements. I'm not trying to do 2 anything other than to make sure that my 3 client's interests are properly protected. 4 All I'm saying is if you know what 5 a step increase is, then you know that the 6 question you just asked was not a proper 7 question. I was trying to be helpful, but if 8 you don't want to take it that way, do what 9 you want to do. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well you're not being 11 helpful and you know you're not being 12 helpful. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Are you up for any promotion in 15 grade? 16 A I'm going to invoke my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Are you saying are 19 you up for a promotion grade today, or then? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I got the answer. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Is that the question 22 you're asking? 381 1 MR. KLAYMAN: My question is my 2 question. 3 MR. WEINBERG: No. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Before you pollute 5 the testimony, I'm very happy with the 6 response. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going to 8 pollute the testimony. I'm going to, with 9 your indulgence, talk to my client about that 10 but I want to make sure I know what the 11 question was, was it as to the present time 12 or was it some other time frame? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: The question speaks 14 for itself. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm not up for a 16 promotion right now. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Let the record reflect the question 19 was changed after consultation with counsel, 20 since we don't have a video record making 21 that for the record. 22 MR. WEINBERG: That's accurate. 382 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Now, have you received any 3 commendations since May 30th of 1996? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What kind of commendations did you 6 receive? 7 A I received a meritorious service 8 award for duty in a hostile zone. 9 Q Who awarded that to you? 10 A The United States Army. 11 Q What was the hostile zone? 12 A Where was it? 13 Q Yes. 14 A It was in the Republic of Georgia. 15 Q It wasn't White House? 16 A Pardon me? 17 Q It wasn't the White House? 18 A Sorry. One never knows. 19 Q What are your duties and 20 responsibilities, generally speaking, I'm not 21 asking about specific assignments, as special 22 agent, what have they been since May 30th 383 1 of 1996? 2 A My primary duties are 3 investigations of major procurement fraud. I 4 have a secondary duty of protective service 5 details. 6 Q Now you have been accused of 7 stealing money yourself, correct, in the 8 past? 9 A I am invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q In fact, an individual by the name 12 of Dennis Michael Casey testified under oath 13 that you stole money from the campaign of 14 Gary Hart? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 16 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 17 constitutional privilege. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask 19 the court reporter to mark as exhibit, the next 20 exhibit. 21 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 22 No. 11 was marked for 384 1 identification.) 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q This is an excerpt from the Hearing 4 on the Committee and Government Reform and 5 Oversight, House of Representatives, the 6 title is Security of FBI Background Files, 7 June 26, 1996. I turn your attention to 8 pages 470 and 471 of the report. 9 If you'd like, Mr. Marceca, please 10 read it, tell me whether there's any 11 testimony in there by Dennis Michael Casey 12 which is inaccurate or untrue? 13 A I'm invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 Q In this testimony Mr. Casey is 16 accusing you of being a crook, correct? 17 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q When you reviewed the FBI material 385 1 on you that you claim fell off of Craig 2 Livingstone's desk by happenstance, was there 3 anything in there about what Mr. Casey is 4 testifying about, stealing money during the 5 Hart campaign? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 7 of the question and are you really asking him 8 what's in an FBI file, is that what you want 9 to ask? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Please respond. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Look at this exhibit, third 15 paragraph from the bottom. 16 A What page? 17 MR. WEINBERG: What paragraph, 18 please? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Well, let's start in the middle of 21 the page. 22 MR. WEINBERG: What page? 386 1 MR. KLAYMAN: 470. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q This is a question. "I don't mean 4 to interrupt you, but you need to go a little 5 slower, okay?" 6 Answer by Casey, "The campaign used 7 my private office at 1502 East Carson Street 8 on the south side of Pittsburgh, and an 9 office also existed in the Westin William 10 Penn Hotel in downtown Pittsburgh. My office 11 was for Statewide staff and the hotel office 12 was for national staff members. 13 "I first came in contact with Craig 14 Livingstone in the William Penn Hotel. A 15 meeting was held because of concern that 16 local and State labor leaders and some 17 prominent public officials were strongly 18 allied behind the candidacy of Walter 19 Mondale. 20 "Mr. Livingstone had a legal pad 21 with him and he began to report on some of 22 the peccadilloes and vulnerabilities of these 387 1 persons in hopes of either neutralizing them 2 or getting their support switched from 3 Mondale to Hart. I do not recall the names 4 of the leaders at this time, but I do recall 5 a number of them were from the Beaver County 6 area of which Mr. Livingstone was a native. 7 I should note, too, that's a strong labor 8 section and a heavy Democratic voter 9 registration area." 10 That's a correct statement, isn't 11 it, made by Mr. Casey? 12 A I'm invoking my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 Q He then goes on to state, "I was 15 greatly upset with Mr. Livingstone, as I 16 viewed the matters he was reporting as 17 personal matters that would adversely affect 18 the lives and families of these people. I 19 told him that I wanted no such work done in 20 this area and that I felt the mere gathering 21 of this information could harm the efforts of 22 Senator Hart and that any attempt to use the 388 1 information would cause the labor leaders to 2 support the opponent even more adamantly, in 3 my opinion." 4 That's a correct statement by 5 Mr. Casey; is it not? 6 A I'm invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 Q He then states, "Mr. Livingstone 9 disagreed, and I reinforced my direction to 10 him to stop that type of work. He, as I 11 recall, left the room angrily." 12 That's a correct statement; is it 13 not? 14 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to object 15 to the form of all of these questions. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Please respond. 18 A I'm invoking my constitutional 19 privilege. 20 Q Mr. Casey then testifies under 21 oath, "That evening I met Mr. Marceca, who I 22 understand was a member of the Hart national 389 1 campaign staff assigned to Pittsburgh. He 2 seemed like an affable man when a group of us 3 were having an after-work cooling-out session 4 at Mario's Restaurant, adjacent to my then 5 office." 6 You did meet Mr. Casey, correct? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You worked on the Hart campaign 12 national staff assigned to Pittsburgh? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Mr. Casey then states, "He talked 18 to me about the worth," he, meaning Marceca, 19 "talked to me about the worth of 20 Mr. Livingstone's information, and I recall 21 he stated it was time for the Hart campaign 22 to play 'hardball' with the dirt 390 1 Mr. Livingstone had gathered." 2 You stated that; didn't you? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q "I, meaning Casey, "stated I would 8 have no part of it, and that was not how I 9 viewed the political process as working." 10 That's what Mr. Casey said to you, 11 correct? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q He then states, "The next morning, 17 I came in my office and was informed that 18 Mr. Marceca had been in my office prior to my 19 arrival and had removed money from the petty 20 cash box. I checked the drawer and 200 21 dollars was missing." 22 That statement is correct; is it 391 1 not? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Casey then testifies, "I tracked 7 him down through telephone calls and whatnot, 8 and he apologized." 9 You apologized; did you not? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Casey tracked you down through 15 telephone calls and whatnot? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Casey then testifies, "But he said 21 that he needed the funds urgently to get 22 handbills printed and distributed concerning 392 1 an upcoming visit by the Senator to the south 2 side. He said he also needed the money to 3 pay community children or urchins to 4 distribute the fliers door-to-door." 5 Mr. Casey said all those things, 6 correct? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Casey then says, "The next day, 12 young children began to show up at the office 13 asking for their pay. I tried to reach 14 Mr. Marceca, but was unable to do so." 15 That's correct, you were unable to 16 do so, correct? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q He was unable to reach you, 20 correct? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 393 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Casey then states, "I paid them 4 from my pocket. I think it was 5 or 10 5 dollars each, as I recall. I tried to reach 6 Mr. Marceca, but he did not get back in touch 7 with me." 8 That's a correct statement, 9 correct? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Casey then testified, "Shortly 15 thereafter, the woman who owned a print shop 16 down the street approached me and asked to be 17 paid for the fliers. I paid her. I again 18 attempted to call Mr. Marceca. My call was 19 not returned." 20 That's correct; is it not? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 394 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Mr. Casey then testifies, "At that 4 point, I approached my co-director Dan 5 Calegari, who I will deviate from the 6 statement for a moment, is from Hill, New 7 Hampshire, as I recall. He was sent in from 8 New Hampshire to Pittsburgh. I told him 9 about this apparent theft." 10 That's correct; is it not? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 13 constitutional privilege. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Mr. Casey then states, "We called a 16 man whose name I recall was Page Reese in the 17 Washington Hart office, who was in charge of 18 national staff, I understand. I told 19 Mr. Reese that in my opinion, Mr. Marceca had 20 committed theft and he would not be permitted 21 back in my office." 22 Is that the same Page Reese who 395 1 appeared on the WAVE logs I showed to you 2 earlier? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Is that, in fact, Page Reese that 8 appeared on those WAVE logs? 9 A I'm invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q "We called a man whose name I 12 recall was Page Reese in the Washington Hart 13 office, who was in charge of national staff, 14 I understand. I told Mr. Reese that in my 15 opinion, Mr. Marceca had committed theft and 16 that he would not be permitted back in my 17 office." 18 Is that a correct statement? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 21 constitutional privilege. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 396 1 Q "The next day, Mr. Marceca 2 telephoned me to state that he had been 3 reamed out by Mr. Reese, and I remember the 4 quote, it stayed in my mind all these years, 5 you guys got me good, right between the eyes, 6 and he slammed down the phone after that." 7 That's a correct statement; is it 8 not? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Mr. Casey then testified, "That 14 night, a Gary Hart confidante, Billy Shore, 15 who was a member of the Senator's personal 16 Senate staff, arrived in Pittsburgh. In a 17 meeting at the William Penn Hotel, with Dan 18 Calegari in attendance. I aired my concerns 19 about the campaign tactics of these men and I 20 stated that unless they were distanced from 21 the campaign, I would resign." 22 That's a correct statement; is it 397 1 not? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Mr. Casey then testifies, "Billy 7 called Washington. I don't know who he spoke 8 with down here, and to the best of my 9 knowledge, both men were not seen around the 10 Pennsylvania campaign again, that I was aware 11 of." 12 That's a correct statement; is it 13 not? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Casey then testifies, "I never 19 heard of these guys again until I read 20 newspaper accounts of the FBI files matter. 21 I then saw on CNN a film clip of 22 Mr. Livingstone, and it triggered my memory 398 1 of the events. That's really what I know 2 about these gentlemen." 3 That's correct; is it not? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 6 constitutional privilege. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, you knew Dennis Casey, did you 9 not? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You've never known Dennis Casey to 15 lie, have you? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q In fact, his reputation when you 21 worked with him was one of honesty and 22 integrity? 399 1 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 2 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You don't know of anything since 6 the time you worked with him that would 7 change that understanding, correct? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Now you say you got this 13 commendation, did you get a cash award for 14 the commendation? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Did you get any kind of benefit? 17 A I believe I have received some cash 18 award or I have received a cash award, I'm 19 not sure when the last date was. 20 Q Have you received a cash award 21 since May 30, 1996? 22 A I'm not sure. 400 1 Q But you believe so? 2 A I'm not sure if I received a cash 3 award since '96. 4 Q How much have you received? 5 A They are usually, I think they 6 were 1,000 dollars, but I'm not sure when the 7 last one was. It might have been prior 8 to '96. 9 Q Why did you get one? 10 A For exceptional performance. 11 Q Part of that performance was 12 concerning your detail at the White House? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did Bill or Hillary Clinton ever 18 give you money while you worked at the White 19 House? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 Lacks factual basis. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 401 1 objections. 2 MS. GILES: I join in those 3 objections. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did they ever give you money since 8 you've left the White House? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MS. COHEN: Join. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Object as to form 12 and you don't have any reasonable factual 13 basis to ask that question. 14 THE WITNESS: I am invoking the 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you know why you were sent to 18 the Republic of Georgia? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Why was that? 21 A I was next on the list. 22 Q It was your understanding when you 402 1 were sent there that was a place that carried 2 some risk to it? 3 A Most overseas trips do. 4 Q Republic of Georgia is a former 5 Republic of the Soviet Union, correct? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q It was at the time you were sent 8 still very unstable, correct? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q There was a risk that you could be 11 killed in being sent there? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Did it ever come to your, did you 14 ever think when you were being sent there 15 that maybe you were being sent so you 16 wouldn't come back? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 18 THE WITNESS: I am invoking -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 20 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question, 21 please. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 403 1 Q Did you ever think at the time you 2 were sent to Republic of Georgia that maybe 3 the Clinton administration didn't want you to 4 come back? 5 A No. 6 Q Were you sent to the Republic of 7 Georgia to protect Edward Chevanasi? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Who ordered you to go there? 10 A I really don't know. I don't 11 recall. 12 Q Now your ultimate superior at the 13 Department of the Army is William Cohen, 14 Secretary of Defense, correct? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Have you ever met Ken Bacon? 17 A I don't know for sure. I've seen 18 him, I don't know -- to answer your question, 19 I don't know. 20 Q When were you sent to the Republic 21 of Georgia? 22 A I believe it was May of '95. 404 1 Q Now did you get any other 2 commendations, you mentioned one, you said 3 that you got more than one? 4 A I think I've gotten another one, 5 too. 6 Q What was that about? 7 A I'm not sure what it is. I got 8 another medal. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Again, you're 10 talking about what time period? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: After May 30, 1996. 12 THE WITNESS: I believe I got one 13 more. I might have got a couple, I'm not 14 sure. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Have you ever been reprimanded by 17 the Army? 18 A No. 19 MR. WEINBERG: What time period are 20 you talking about? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: After May 30th 22 of 1996. 405 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Any time period? 4 A No. 5 Q Have you ever been censured by the 6 Army after May 30th 1996? 7 A No. 8 Q Any time period? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you ever been subject to 11 criticism by the Army after May 30th of 1996? 12 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 13 of that question. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 15 the word criticism, what you mean by 16 criticism. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Criticized for anything you've 19 done? 20 A No, not that I know of. 21 Q After May 30th, '96, or before? 22 A Not to my knowledge. 406 1 Q Has anyone ever told you that your 2 involvement in the FBI file issue is an 3 embarrassment to the Army? 4 A No. 5 Q Have you ever met William Cohen? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Can we go off the 7 record for a minute? 8 (Discussion off the record) 9 THE WITNESS: I'm going to invoke 10 the constitutional privilege. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Bear with us a 12 minute. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want this to 14 count against my time. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Marceca believes 16 that -- 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let him testify to 18 it. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Let me explain it. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Let me explain what 22 the problem is. 407 1 Mr. Marceca believes that he's not 2 allowed to testify about these matters under 3 classified national security matters and your 4 question gets into that area. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask this 6 question -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: Let me make sure of 8 one thing. 9 People in Mr. Marceca's position 10 provide security services to officials and 11 they are not supposed to talk about that. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we go on a 13 confidential record? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to go on 16 a confidential record? 17 MS. GILES: Since no one from DOD 18 is here, I would urge us not to get in a 19 confidential record. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not sure, that's 21 right, I'm not sure, this is Mr. Marceca's 22 understanding, none of us has studied the 408 1 rules. We are certainly not in a position to 2 know what is and is not classified and I 3 don't think -- 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Have you ever discussed this FBI 6 files controversy with William Cohen? 7 A No, sir. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go off the 9 record. 10 (Discussion off the record) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Have you ever discussed anything 13 with William Cohen? 14 A No, sir. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 16 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 17 next exhibit. 18 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 19 No. 12 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you ever been told that the 409 1 Clinton administration did its own 2 investigation of the FBI files controversy 3 and determined that you have no culpability? 4 A I'm invoking my constitutional 5 right or privilege on that. 6 Q Before getting these step increases 7 that you testified to, the commendations and 8 the cash awards, were you told that the Army 9 did an investigation of your work at the 10 White House and determined that you didn't do 11 anything wrong? 12 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 13 of that question. You've mischaracterized 14 the record. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A I'm invoking my constitutional 18 privilege. 19 Q So you were told by the Army that, 20 in fact, they determined that you did do 21 something wrong, but that in order to make 22 sure you didn't talk about it, you were going 410 1 to get these step increases, commendations 2 and cash awards? 3 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 4 of that question. You have absolutely no 5 factual basis for asking that question. It's 6 entirely inappropriate. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 A I am invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q In fact, it's your understanding 12 that these step increases, commendations and 13 cash awards were meant to buy your silence? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 15 of that question. You've mischaracterized 16 the record. You have no factual basis for 17 asking that question. 18 MS. GILES: Join in those 19 objections. 20 MS. COHEN: I join in those 21 objections. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 411 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Please respond. 3 A I'm invoking my constitutional 4 privilege. 5 Q Showing you the next exhibit, 12, 6 you are quoted in this, this is an article, 7 Former City Man Sees Inside of White House 8 Daily by Jane Smith of the Tribune, 9 March 13, 1994. 10 You're quoted as saying, "The First 11 Lady is 'very, very bright,' Marceca said, 12 adding she is a very nice person, very 13 personable and very nice;" did you say that? 14 A I'm going to invoke my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 Q It then states in the article, 17 "Marceca's road to the White House started in 18 Meadville many years ago when he was a county 19 constable after finishing four years with the 20 Army;" is that correct? 21 A I'm going to invoke my 22 constitutional privilege. 412 1 Q You then stated in the last column 2 of this article, or it then states in the 3 last column, "At the White House, his," 4 meaning Marceca's, "day started at 8 a.m. and 5 ended 'whenever it got done.' The President 6 is not one to quit work early, Marceca said. 7 President Clinton often returns to work after 8 dinner. Staff members stay to work also." 9 You said that; didn't you? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q That statement was made based on 15 personal experience by you, correct? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q When you were at the White House, 21 you had close contact with President Clinton, 22 correct? 413 1 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 2 MS. GILES: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You had close contact with Hillary 7 Clinton? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 9 Lacks foundation. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I join those 11 objections. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Correct? 14 A I'm invoking my constitutional 15 privilege. 16 Q Then it states in the article, last 17 column, "Marceca met Clinton on a number of 18 occasions. Staff member volunteered to man 19 the phone lines after the President's state 20 of the union address." 21 That's a correct statement; is it 22 not? 414 1 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 3 constitutional privilege. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask 5 the court reporter to mark as the next exhibit. 6 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 7 No. 13 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q This is a composite exhibit. This 11 is a document which was produced from your 12 files. It's Exhibit 13. 13 This was produced from your files, 14 Mr. Marceca? 15 A I'm invoking my constitutional 16 privilege. 17 Q Now, in this document interspersed 18 are pages which say warning, these documents 19 contain information protected by the Privacy 20 Act of 1974, warning, possession of the 21 documents constitutes acknowledgement of the 22 owner's rights to privacy, warning; that is 415 1 correct, is it not? 2 MR. WEINBERG: What are you reading 3 from, which page number? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: There is no Bates 5 number on it. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what are you 7 reading from? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: It follows Bates 9 Number CGE 056092. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you see that? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to give 13 us a hint, I mean -- 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Do you see that, Mr. Marceca? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q This warning, this document that 18 contains the warning I just read, comes from 19 the White House files, correct? 20 A I am invoking my constitutional 21 privilege. 22 Q This document was obtained by you 416 1 at the White House? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q The document shows that you and 7 others at the White House knew that the 8 Privacy Act applied to the information in 9 Exhibit 13? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 11 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 12 constitutional privilege. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q It shows that you knew that the 15 Privacy Act applied to the White House? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q It shows that you know that the 21 Privacy Act applied to the White House 22 counsel's office? 417 1 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 2 MS. COHEN: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Now when you were detailed to the 7 White House, you worked with persons in the 8 White House counsel's office, correct? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q A review of the documents in 14 Exhibit 13 would show that they contain 15 information which incriminates you of 16 criminal wrongdoing, correct? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 19 the question. 20 MS. COHEN: I object to the form of 21 that question. 22 MS. GILES: Join. 418 1 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I'll ask 4 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 14. 5 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 6 No. 14 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Exhibit 14 contains information 10 taken from your Zenith lap top. 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q You used that Zenith lap top during 13 the time that you worked at the White House? 14 MR. WEINBERG: His answer is just a 15 recognition of what you're reading from at 16 the top? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not true, we 18 heard the answer. It's plain as the nose on 19 your face, Mr. Weinberg. 20 MR. WEINBERG: My nose, I don't 21 know how plain my nose is, but I know what 22 the answer is. 419 1 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a beautiful 2 nose. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 4 MR. MUSE: You have a lovely nose, 5 too, Mr. Klayman. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 7 MR. WEINBERG: What's your 8 question? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You used the Zenith lap top when 11 you worked at the White House? 12 A I am invoking my constitutional 13 privilege. 14 Q In fact, the information contained 15 in Exhibit 14 comes from a computer disk 16 which is pictured on the first page of 17 Exhibit 14? 18 A I am invoking my constitutional 19 privilege. 20 Q When you worked at the White House 21 on detail, you took information home on this 22 computer disk which is pictured as the first 420 1 document in Exhibit 14? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q This computer disk contained FBI 7 background information? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 10 constitutional privilege. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The information contained on this 13 computer disk which contains FBI background 14 information concerned Republicans and others 15 who were not hold-overs and not political 16 appointees of the Clinton administration? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MS. COHEN: Object to the form. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Join that objection. 20 MS. GILES: Join. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 22 constitutional privilege. 421 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q The reason you took this 3 information home on a computer disk was to 4 use it against these persons? 5 A I'm invoking -- 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 7 MS. COHEN: Object to form. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Object to form and 9 you have no reasonable factual basis for that 10 question. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You created this computer disk at 13 the direction of Hillary Clinton? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 15 of that question. I object that it lacks a 16 factual basis. 17 MS. COHEN: I join in that 18 objection. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I join in those 20 objections. 21 MS. GILES: Join. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 422 1 Q In fact, you disseminated copies of 2 information on this computer disk to other 3 persons, correct? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 A I am invoking my constitutional 9 privilege. 10 Q At the time that you took the 11 computer disk home with FBI file information, 12 you knew that was illegal? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 15 constitutional privilege. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q During your years with the Army, 18 were you taught by the Army that it's okay to 19 take FBI background material out of 20 Government premises of these individuals? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 423 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Have you ever informed the Army 4 that you took FBI background material about 5 individuals out of the White House on 6 computer disk? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 9 constitutional privilege. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q When you worked at the White House, 12 people knew that you were using a Zenith lap 13 top computer? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q No one ever asked you to not take 19 that computer out of the office, correct, out 20 of the White House? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 424 1 constitutional privilege. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q When you left the White House, did 4 anyone there ask to review the contents of 5 your Zenith lap top computer? 6 A I am invoking my constitutional 7 privilege. 8 Q Mr. Fitton will direct you to a 9 page in Exhibit 14 which contains this same 10 warning, warning, these documents contain 11 information protected by the Privacy Act 12 of '74. Warning, possession of the documents 13 constitutes acknowledgement of owners rights 14 to privacy, warning. 15 Do you see that? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q This document shows that you knew 18 the Privacy Act applied to the information 19 that you took out of the White House on the 20 Zenith lap top computer and computer disk? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 22 MS. GILES: Join. 425 1 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 2 constitutional privilege. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q This document, this warning comes 5 from the White House, correct? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q It shows that the White House has 11 known that the Privacy Act applies to it? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 13 MS. GILES: Objection, lacks 14 factual foundation. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 16 constitutional privilege. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q It shows that the White House knows 19 that the Privacy Act applied to its White 20 House counsel's office? 21 MS. COHEN: Objection to form. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I join in that 426 1 objection. 2 MS. GILES: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 4 constitutional privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q A review of the information 7 contained in Exhibit 14 would incriminate 8 you, Mr. Marceca, criminally? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 10 MS. COHEN: I'll join. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Correct? 13 A I am invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 Q Have you ever been required by the 16 Army to turn over documents that refer or 17 relate in any way to your detailing at the 18 White House? 19 A Would you repeat the question? 20 Q Have you ever been asked by the 21 Army to turn over documents concerning the 22 period of time that you worked at the White 427 1 House? 2 A No. 3 Q Have you ever been investigated for 4 your work at the White House by the Inspector 5 General of the Army? 6 A I am invoking my constitutional 7 privilege on that. 8 Q Is any such investigation ongoing? 9 A I am invoking my constitutional 10 privilege. 11 Q Has there ever been such an 12 investigation? 13 A I am invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 16 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 17 next exhibit. 18 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 19 No. 15 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I turn your attention to, these are 428 1 all White House notes, to Bates 2 Numbers 014513. Mr. Fitton can help you find 3 that. 4 A I have it. 5 Q Have you ever seen this document 6 before, it's dated August 9, 1993? 7 A I'm invoking my constitutional 8 privilege. 9 Q That's your handwriting? 10 A I'm invoking my constitutional 11 privilege. 12 Q In this document you are noting 13 your duties and responsibilities when you 14 were detailed to the White House, in part? 15 A I am invoking -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 18 constitutional privilege. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What does it say under Number 1, 21 confirmation in file on, what does that say 22 at the end? 429 1 A I'm invoking my Fifth Amendment 2 privilege. 3 Q Does that say drug testing? 4 MR. WEINBERG: He's given you his 5 answer. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You were gathering information on 8 Republicans concerning their use of drugs, 9 correct? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 11 MS. COHEN: Join. 12 MS. GILES: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 14 constitutional privilege. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q The second entry, security 17 violations, this shows that you knew that 18 your activities at the White House 19 constituted security violations? 20 MR. WEINBERG: If that's a 21 question, I object to the form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 430 1 Q Correct? 2 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the 3 form. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 5 constitutional privilege. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Number 3, it says no releasing 8 of 86s out, correct? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 11 constitutional privilege. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q The entry after that shows that you 14 knew that you needed the permission of the 15 individual whose 86 that related to under the 16 Privacy Act to be able to release information 17 outside of the White House? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Correct? 21 A I'm invoking my constitutional 22 privilege. 431 1 Q These notes which I just showed you 2 as part of this exhibit, Exhibit 15, show 3 that you were told by Nancy Gamell to remove 4 Reagan and Bush administration staffers from 5 access lists and not to obtain their FBI 6 files? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 9 the question. 10 Were you citing from a page there, 11 Mr. Klayman? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: No, totality. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 14 the question. Objection that it lacks a 15 factual basis. 16 MS. COHEN: Join the objection. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Join the objection. 18 MS. GILES: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: I'm invoking my 20 constitutional privilege. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what I'll ask 22 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 16. 432 1 (Marceca Deposition Exhibit 2 Nos. 16 and 17 were marked for 3 identification.) 4 MS. GILES: Mr. Klayman, according 5 to my calculations, you have about three more 6 minutes of questioning. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Showing you Exhibit 16 and 9 Exhibit 17, these are your calendars, 10 respectively, of 1993 and 1994, correct? 11 MR. WEINBERG: He only has 12 Exhibit 17. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Exhibit 16 are the calendars 15 of 1993, Exhibit 17 are the calendars 16 of 1994? 17 MR. WEINBERG: He doesn't have 18 Exhibit 17. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 20 MS. COHEN: Do you have another 21 copy of Exhibit 16? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 433 1 Q Showing you Exhibits 16 and 17, 2 these are the calendars which you kept and 3 maintained when you worked at the White 4 House, correct? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form 6 of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I am invoking my 8 constitutional privilege. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Will you testify as to any matter 11 contained in these calendars? 12 MR. WEINBERG: You were the one who 13 said we've got to do it question by question, 14 so ask the question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm telling you 18 that you have to ask the questions. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking the 22 question. 434 1 MR. WEINBERG: How can he answer 2 that question until you ask. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't run out 4 my time. 5 MR. WEINBERG: You're running out 6 your own time. If you have questions to ask, 7 ask them. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: This is not funny, 9 Mr. Muse. 10 MR. WEINBERG: He can't answer 11 questions -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you refusing to 13 answer any questions pertaining to the 14 calendars 16 and 17? 15 MR. WEINBERG: No. 16 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Will you answer questions regarding 19 the entries in these calendars? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Ask the questions. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Yes or no. 435 1 MR. WEINBERG: Ask the questions. 2 Just as you said all morning long, question 3 by question, ask the questions. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I can ask a 5 foundational question. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q If you don't want to answer, I'll 8 certify it. I'm not wasting any more time. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Is this your handwriting on these 12 calendars? 13 A I'm invoking my constitutional 14 privilege. 15 Q Is there anything in these 16 calendars which is incorrect or inaccurate? 17 A I'm invoking my constitutional 18 privilege. 19 MS. GILES: Can we get the time 20 please? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q A review of these calendars show 436 1 that you, in fact, participated in the 2 obtaining of FBI materials on Republicans and 3 others who were not hold-over employees and 4 not political appointees of the White House 5 for the purpose of using that information to 6 harm their reputations on behalf of the 7 Clinton administration and Bill and Hillary 8 Clinton, correct? 9 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form 10 of the question and you have no reasonable 11 factual basis, you have no factual basis at 12 all to ask that question. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: I join that 14 objection. 15 MS. GILES: I join the objections. 16 MS. COHEN: I join the objections. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Correct? I want a response. 19 A I am invoking my constitutional 20 privilege. 21 MS. GILES: Mr. Klayman, I believe 22 your six hours of questioning are up. 437 1 MR. KLAYMAN: No further questions 2 at this time. We'll leave the deposition 3 open. 4 MS. GILES: I object to that. I 5 have no cross-examination. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Join the objection. 7 I have no questions for the witness. 8 MS. COHEN: I have no questions. 9 MR. WEINBERG: As far as we 10 understand it, the deposition is over. 11 (Whereupon, at 6:03 p.m., the 12 deposition of ANTHONY B. MARCECA 13 was adjourned.) 14 * * * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22