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_____________________________________ CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, et al., Defendants. _____________________________________ |
) ) ) ) ) ) Civil No. 96-2123/97-1288 (RCL) ) ) ) ) ) |
-------------------------x
Washington, D.C.
Wednesday, August 5, 1998
Deposition of
THOMAS F. McLARTY III
a witness, called for examination by counsel
for Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice and
agreement of counsel, continuing at
approximately 10:13 a.m., at the offices of
Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W.,
Washington, D.C., before Shari R. Broussard,
notary public in and for the District of
Columbia, when were present on behalf on the
respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE
4 Judicial Watch, Inc.
501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
(202) 646-5172
6
On behalf of the Executive
7 Office of the President (EOP) and
the Federal Bureau of
8 Investigations (FBI):
9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
U.S. Department of Justice
10 901 E Street, N.W., 9th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20004
11 (202) 514-5302
12 On behalf of Hillary Rodham Clinton:
13 MARCIE ZIEGLER, ESQUIRE
Williams & Connolly
14 725 Twelfth Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
15 (202) 434-5803
16 On behalf of The White House:
17 SALLY P. PAXTON, ESQUIRE
The White House
18 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20502
19 (202) 456-5076
20
21
22
3
1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D):
2 On behalf of the Witness:
3 ROGER C. SPAEDER, ESQUIRE
LESLIE BERGER KIERNAN, ESQUIRE
4 Zuckerman, Spaeder, Goldstein, Taylor &
Kolker, LLP
5 1201 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036-2638
6 (202) 778-1848
7 ALSO PRESENT:
8 Sylvanus Holley, Videographer
9 C O N T E N T S
10 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
11 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5
12 Counsel for EOP and FBI 412
13 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY:
14 Counsel for Plaintiffs 414
15 McLARTY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
16 No. 1 - Subpoena 8
17 No. 2 - Objections and Responses to 15
Subpoena
18
No. 3 - Investigation Report, Pp. 171-175 97
19
No. 4 - The Wall Street Journal, 154
20 Interactive Edition
21 No. 5 - Investigation Report, Pp. 95-102 163
22 No. 6 - Investigation Report, Excerpt 172
4
1 McLARTY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS (CONT'D.): PAGE
2 No. 7 - Memorandum, Bates Stamped 206
FBI-00004335
3
No. 8 - Calendar Excerpts, 1994 330
4
No. 9 - Document, Bates Stamped TM 000003 373
5
No. 10 - Fax, Williams to Berger 374
6
No. 11 - Calendar Excerpts, 1993 376
7
No. 12 - Search - Query Document 383
8
No. 13 - Exhibit I, Bates Stamped 390
9 TM 000138-000142
10 No. 14 - Privilege Log 395
11 No. 15 - Copies of Checks 404
12 No. 16 - Business Week Article 407
13
14 * * * *
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
5
1 P R O C E E D I N G
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This
3 is the video deposition of Thomas McLarty,
4 taken by the counsel for the plaintiff in the
5 matter of Cara Leslie Alexander v. the
6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al., Case
7 Number 96-2123, in the U.S. District Court
8 for the District of Columbia, held in the
9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street,
10 Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this date,
11 August 5, 1998, and at the time indicated on
12 the video screen, which is 10:13 a.m.
13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm
14 the videographer. The court reporter today
15 is Shari Broussard from the firm of Beta
16 Reporting. Will counsel now please introduce
17 themselves?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman,
19 general counsel of Judicial Watch.
20 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President,
21 Judicial Watch.
22 MR. SPAEDER: Roger Spaeder,
6
1 Zuckerman, Spaeder, Goldstein, Taylor &
2 Kolker in Washington. Counsel for the
3 witness, Thomas F. McLarty.
4 MS. KIERNAN: Leslie Berger Kiernan
5 of Zuckerman, Spaeder, counsel for
6 Mr. McLarty.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro on
8 behalf of the Executive Office of the
9 President.
10 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton with the
11 White House.
12 MS. ZIEGLER: Marcie Ziegler for
13 the First Lady.
14 VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
15 reporter please swear in the witness?
16 Whereupon,
17 THOMAS F. McLARTY III
18 was called as a witness, and having been
19 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
20 as follows:
21 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7
1 Q Would you please state your name?
2 A Thomas F. McLarty, the Third.
3 Q When were you born, Mr. McLarty?
4 A June 14, 1946.
5 Q Run me through just briefly your
6 educational background.
7 A Educated at the Hope Public
8 Schools, attended and graduated from the
9 University of Arkansas with a degree in
10 business.
11 Q Did there come a point in time when
12 you became employed by the White House?
13 A There did.
14 Q When was that?
15 A Officially January 20th, I believe,
16 right after the Inaugural of President
17 Clinton.
18 Q What were you employed as? What
19 was your title?
20 A Chief of Staff to the President.
21 Q Tell us what your duties and
22 responsibilities were as Chief of Staff to
8
1 the President.
2 A Essentially to organize the White
3 House staff to get a government in place in
4 those early days and to provide the President
5 and other senior officials with information
6 regarding the various decisions and matters
7 that came before the Executive Branch of
8 Government and to coordinate the various
9 cabinet agencies from the Executive Branch.
10 Q So from an operational standpoint
11 you were in charge of running the White
12 House, in essence?
13 A Yes, I was responsible for the
14 management of the White House.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I'll
16 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 1.
17 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
18 No. 1 was marked for
19 identification.)
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Before I ask that question, did
22 there come a point in time when your duties
9
1 changed with the White House?
2 A There did.
3 Q When was that?
4 A I believe it was in July of 1994.
5 Q How did they change?
6 A I resigned as Chief of Staff and
7 served as counselor to the President
8 until 1996.
9 Q What were your duties and
10 responsibilities as counselor to the
11 President?
12 A To advise and counsel in a broad
13 range of matters, but primarily focusing on
14 economic and trade matters and then there
15 were other particular special
16 responsibilities or projects that I was asked
17 to be responsible for and participate in.
18 Q Tell me what the advice was just in
19 terms of subject matter, not the actual
20 advice, on the broad range of matters. What
21 categories of matters besides trade and
22 economic matters?
10
1 A Economic and trade were what my
2 principal areas of focus were, Mr. Klayman,
3 so there were a number of matters that would
4 come under that rubric, whether it be trade
5 bills or increasing exports, trade related
6 matters. On the economic side, of course, it
7 would have to do with the deficit reduction.
8 Those type of matters.
9 Q Have you had any prior
10 international trade experience?
11 A Moderately, so. Certainly in my
12 responsibility as Chief of Staff I was deeply
13 involved in the passage of the North American
14 Fleet Trade Agreement.
15 Q Was that, principally, your
16 international trade experience up to that
17 point in time?
18 A Well, there were other matters, of
19 course, in the White House with the G7 and
20 the APAC conference as well. As a business
21 person, of course, you're exposed to trade
22 matters, economic matters, but they
11
1 have primarily been domestic.
2 Q You had been in the oil business, I
3 take it, before you joined the White House in
4 part?
5 A Actually in the natural gas
6 business.
7 Q Natural gas business. Is it in
8 that business that you gained international
9 trade experience?
10 A You, of course, have exposure to
11 international markets from an energy sector
12 standpoint, particularly.
13 Q When you became advisor to the
14 President in 1994, I take it you still had
15 the authority to provide general advice as
16 you saw fit?
17 A When it was asked for, yes.
18 Q Did you stay in that position as
19 advisor to the President until you left the
20 White House?
21 A No, in 1996 my responsibilities
22 were formalized, as I noted to you earlier.
12
1 There were a number of major special projects
2 that I had been involved in, in my role as
3 counselor. One of those, Mr. Klayman, had
4 been the Summit of the Americas in Miami,
5 dealing with the hemisphere, and I was asked
6 to be special envoy for the Americas in
7 December of 1996.
8 Q Can you tell us what all of those
9 special projects were?
10 A The two or three principal projects
11 that I recall were, one, the Summit of the
12 Americas, the organization of that summit of
13 at least 34 democratic-elected heads of the
14 state, and then I spent a lot of time on the
15 follow-up and that's where I became deeply
16 involved in the hemisphere.
17 The second was the primary point
18 person for the 1996 centennial games, the
19 Olympic games held in Atlanta, as the primary
20 interface with the Atlanta organizing
21 committee and the international organization
22 for the Olympics. Then there were other
13
1 particular special projects such as assisting
2 the Bosnian peace effort particularly with an
3 outreach to the Gulf states to be supportive
4 of the Bosnian Federation. Those are three
5 major projects that I recall sitting here
6 today.
7 Q So your position was formalized
8 in 1996, and how long did you stay with the
9 White House after that?
10 A I left the White House July 3rd of
11 this year.
12 Q What are you currently doing,
13 professionally speaking?
14 A Well, I'm transitioning back in the
15 private sector primarily working with our
16 family business, McLarty Companies, which is
17 a fourth-generation transportation business.
18 Q Where is that located?
19 A It's located in Little Rock,
20 Arkansas.
21 Q Now, I'm going to show you what has
22 been marked as Exhibit 1. This is a subpoena
14
1 which was served upon you. Can I ask you to
2 confirm if that was the subpoena that was
3 served upon you?
4 A Yes, I believe that it is.
5 Q Have you seen it before?
6 A I have.
7 Q Did you go through the document
8 request with your counsel?
9 A I did.
10 Q Have you produced any documents in
11 response to this subpoena here today?
12 A Yes, it's my understanding we have.
13 MS. KIERNAN: Mr. Klayman, I have
14 documents right here for you.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: We can go off the
16 record for a few minutes. I just want to
17 take a few minutes to look through these.
18 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
19 video record at 10:22 a.m.
20 (Discussion off the record)
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
22 record at 10:25 a.m.
15
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask the court
2 reporter to mark as Exhibit 2, Objections and
3 Responses of Nonparty Thomas F. McLarty, III,
4 to Plaintiffs' Subpoena Duces Tecum.
5 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
6 No. 2 was marked for
7 identification.)
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Mr. McLarty, have you seen this
10 document before, these objections?
11 A Mr. Klayman, I believe I have seen
12 it. I'm not -- I believe I've seen it. I'm
13 not as familiar with this document as I am
14 with the earlier document you asked me about.
15 Q What is this document, to the best
16 of your knowledge?
17 A I think it is a response prepared
18 by my attorneys regarding request for
19 information, if I understand it correctly.
20 Q Did you have an opportunity to
21 review this document before it was provided
22 to counsel?
16
1 A I believe I have seen it. I don't
2 believe I have reviewed this document
3 carefully.
4 Q Do you stand by the objections
5 contained in this document to plaintiffs'
6 Subpoena Duces Tecum, which is Exhibit 1?
7 A I certainly rely on my attorneys
8 for their advice and I certainly stand by
9 their positions, yes.
10 Q At the time that you left the White
11 House did you take certain documents with
12 you?
13 A I did.
14 Q Which documents did you take with
15 you when you left the White House?
16 A I took personal correspondence that
17 I had in the White House, Mr. Klayman. It
18 primarily was correspondence to my mother
19 and my brother, other family members, close
20 personal friends, and I took information that
21 I had gathered in regard to various legal
22 proceedings over the last several years where
17
1 I had been requested to be a witness in these
2 legal proceedings. Those were the two groups
3 of documents that I took with me as I left
4 the White House.
5 Q As part of your duties and
6 responsibilities as Chief of Staff and then
7 advisor, were you called upon from time to
8 time by the President to consult with him
9 about the various Clinton controversies? I'm
10 talking about matters like Travelgate,
11 Filegate, those types of issues.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
13 You can answer.
14 MS. KIERNAN: Go ahead.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, from time to
16 time I was -- participated in those
17 discussions -- about those matters -- those
18 types of matters.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q As Chief of Staff, it would be part
21 of your duties and responsibilities to know
22 exactly what the allegations concerning these
18
1 controversies were?
2 A To be aware of topical events. To
3 know exactly what the allegations were, I'm
4 not sure I would agree with that assessment.
5 Q Part of your duties and
6 responsibilities were to oversee efforts
7 within the White House to learn what the
8 underlying facts were concerning these
9 controversies?
10 A In the management of the White
11 House you delegated responsibilities of that
12 nature and, of course, depended on others to
13 have primary responsibilities or to go into
14 the level of detail I think you're
15 suggesting, but certainly to be, generally,
16 aware of them, Mr. Klayman.
17 Q How did the chain of command work
18 in terms of who reported to who when a fact
19 finding was undertaken concerning the Clinton
20 controversy such as Travelgate?
21 A It depended on the subject matter.
22 Where a particular responsibility or you
19
1 would ask someone to do certain functions.
2 It depended on the particular matter. Either
3 a Deputy Chief of Staff, the White House
4 Counsel's Office or a particular department,
5 for example, management administration in
6 terms of the travel matter. So it really
7 depended on the matter.
8 Q But ultimately were you the last
9 before the President who would get the report
10 on exactly what had occurred?
11 A The Chief of Staff, generally,
12 has the responsibility in that regard,
13 although the White House Counsel's Office, of
14 course, has in many ways the last word on a
15 legal matter.
16 Q So is it true that you would both
17 get a report when a damage assessment was
18 undertaken at the White House?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
20 THE WITNESS: Report, I think, is
21 a formal term. I think I have tried to
22 respond to your question and explain how you
20
1 would have various people working on various
2 matters and it really depended on the
3 circumstances and the matters that were being
4 reviewed.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q It is true, however, that you were
7 the last person, in terms of authority, that
8 individuals that were undertaking these
9 assessments would report to short of the
10 President?
11 A Mr. Klayman, generally, that would
12 be the case. We did not have a perfectly
13 hierarchical structure. Of course, I travel
14 some from time to time. But generally, as
15 Chief of Staff, that's how you try to manage
16 the operation, I believe, yes.
17 Q So when you left the White House,
18 you took two classes of documents; one, your
19 personal correspondence and the other dealing
20 with the various Clinton controversies and
21 your testimony in those controversies?
22 A Various legal proceedings where I
21
1 had been asked to testify and I had gathered
2 material in preparation for my testimony.
3 Q Did you take any other types of
4 documents when you left the White House?
5 A No, I did not.
6 Q Did anyone assist you in gathering
7 up these documents that you left the White
8 House with?
9 A Yes, they did.
10 Q Who was that?
11 A My personal attorneys. I asked
12 them to assist me in this matter and work
13 closely with White House Counsel's Office in
14 that regard, and my immediate office staff in
15 the White House.
16 Q Were your personal attorneys called
17 in to the White House to actually go through
18 the files?
19 A They were.
20 Q Did they have security clearances
21 to do that?
22 A I don't know.
22
1 Q What files did they go through?
2 A It is my -- I asked them to
3 carefully review all of my files and to
4 handle them in a very careful manner working
5 with White House Counsel's Office and I and
6 am confident that they did so.
7 Q Which specific attorneys came into
8 the White House to undertake that review?
9 A Ms. Austin and Mr. Leslie Berger
10 Kiernan.
11 Q The two attorneys that are present
12 here today?
13 A No, Ms. Austin is not present.
14 Mr. Spaeder.
15 Q Mr. Spaeder, Roger?
16 A Roger did not participate in this.
17 Q What's Ms. Austin's first name?
18 A Kelly.
19 Q Kelly Austin.
20 Do you know what her duties and
21 responsibilities are at the law firm?
22 A She's an associate there. I don't
23
1 know her precise duties and responsibilities.
2 Q Which files did he go through
3 specifically, as well as the other lawyer
4 that came in?
5 A It is my understanding that there
6 was a careful review of all of my files and
7 those were the two files that I took with me.
8 The rest, as I understand it, are in records
9 management in the White Office because
10 they're official documents.
11 Q You say that your attorneys worked
12 closely with White House counsel. Who in
13 White House Counsel's Office did they work
14 with?
15 A I am not certain the exact
16 attorneys they worked with.
17 Q Was it at the time that Mr. Ruff
18 was the White House counsel?
19 A Yes, it would have been.
20 Q Did they work directly with
21 Mr. Ruff?
22 A I do not know.
24
1 Q Was there any kind of writing
2 prepared to serve as a guidepost as to what
3 documents could be taken from the file
4 initially and those which would then be
5 reviewed for you to take ultimately to your
6 new private position?
7 A There are various policies. How
8 much is actually in writing, Mr. Klayman, I
9 honestly don't know.
10 I carefully instructed my attorneys
11 to work in a very diligent manner regarding
12 my files and I relied on them and I'm
13 confident that they did so and complied with
14 all of the existing policies.
15 Q You were aware that before taking
16 documents from the White House that clearance
17 should be obtained?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You were aware that clearance
21 inside the White House should be obtained?
22 A Yeah.
25
1 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, what do you
2 mean by clearance? You're talking about --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Authorization to take
4 any documents off the premises.
5 THE WITNESS: I was aware that this
6 was an important matter that needed to be
7 handled in a careful and diligent way. As to
8 the exact and precise nature of clearance or
9 authorization, I'm not aware of that level of
10 detail, but I was aware you needed to handle
11 this matter in accordance with policies and
12 procedures and to the extent the laws govern
13 this.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q But you were aware that there were
16 laws in terms of what documents could be
17 taken and which could not even if you didn't
18 know the specifics?
19 A Again, I tried to be responsive. I
20 don't know about the level of detail that I
21 understood, but I was aware this needed to be
22 handled in a very careful, proper,
26
1 appropriate manner.
2 Q Well, I'm not asking you that
3 question. What I'm asking you is, based on
4 your considerable experience, based upon your
5 position as White House Chief of Staff and
6 then as an advisor to the President, you knew
7 that there were clearance procedures that
8 needed to be followed and legal guidelines
9 that needed to be followed and that's why you
10 called your attorneys in to handle it,
11 correct?
12 A Procedures and guidelines, I think
13 that's a fair -- fair way to put it.
14 Q You knew you just couldn't take
15 anything you wanted off the White House
16 premises?
17 A No, I did not believe I could nor
18 did I.
19 Q You know that many documents would
20 belong to the United States, not to you?
21 A Official documents, that's --
22 Q You wanted to do things the right
27
1 way?
2 A That's correct, and I believe we
3 did them the right way.
4 Q During the time that you worked in
5 the White House you are aware that White
6 House officials were advised that before they
7 could take documents off premises that there
8 were certain clearance procedures that had to
9 be followed, correct?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You can respond.
13 A You mean when they left the White
14 House employ, Mr. Klayman?
15 Q Yes.
16 A Is that what you're referring to?
17 Q Yes. That was well known among
18 high-level officials in the White House,
19 correct?
20 A That was my understanding, that
21 there was procedures and guidelines to follow
22 when you left government.
28
1 Q When you were White House Chief of
2 Staff, you made sure that officials working
3 in the White House knew these things,
4 correct?
5 A I either -- I relied on others to
6 make sure these kinds of policies and
7 procedures were followed that were directly
8 responsible for them.
9 Q Clearly, based on your knowledge
10 and experience of the White House, it would
11 be inappropriate for a White House official
12 to simply load up boxes, ask for no clearance
13 and just take them off the premises?
14 A I was aware there were policies,
15 guidelines, procedures in place to determine
16 how one should leave government and how
17 records should be handled.
18 Q So the answer is yes?
19 A Yes, that was my understanding.
20 I've tried -- tried to be responsive to it
21 several times.
22 Q Now, you were present in the White
29
1 House, were you not, when Howard Ickes left?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you remember when he left the
4 employment of the White House?
5 A I, generally, recall Mr. Ickes
6 leaving government, yes.
7 Q What was his position in the White
8 House during the period that you were there?
9 A Initially I believe he was
10 responsible for the health care efforts. I
11 believe he was Deputy Chief of Staff at that
12 time and then continued to be Deputy Chief of
13 Staff until he left the White House.
14 Q Did he ever work under you as Chief
15 of Staff?
16 A He did.
17 Q As Deputy Chief of Staff?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q You imparted to Mr. Ickes, as you
20 did everyone else, your understanding that
21 you're not supposed to just take documents
22 off the premises of the White House, correct?
30
1 A No, I didn't impart that. Those
2 were part of the procedures and guidelines
3 that the White House Counsel's Office and
4 others directly involved in those
5 responsibilities would have imparted to any
6 employee of the White House. I personally
7 did not the do that, if that's your question.
8 Q But it was done?
9 A I believe it was. I have no
10 personal knowledge it was. I relied on those
11 responsible to do their job professionally
12 and I think that's how you have to run this
13 type of organization. I have no reason to
14 believe they did not.
15 Q Forgive me if I repeat myself here
16 sometimes, but when was it that Ickes left?
17 A Mr. Klayman, sitting here today I'm
18 not sure of the exact date. He left sometime
19 after the President's re-election and I don't
20 recall the exact date.
21 Q Was it in 1997?
22 A I believe that's right.
31
1 Q Correct.
2 A I just don't recall the exact date.
3 Q Were you aware of the day that he
4 left?
5 A I think I just said I was not.
6 Q You are aware, however, that he
7 took somewhere between 30 and 50 boxes of
8 documents off the premises when he left?
9 A I have no idea what Mr. Ickes took
10 or didn't take.
11 Q Have you read that since in the
12 newspaper or heard it anywhere else?
13 A Mr. Klayman, I don't believe I
14 have.
15 Q Do you know of any efforts by
16 Harold Ickes to get clearance inside the
17 White House before he carted off 30 to 50
18 boxes of documents?
19 A I have no information about that
20 subject.
21 Q These documents which you took with
22 you --
32
1 A I'm sorry. The documents I took?
2 Q Yeah, when you left.
3 A Okay.
4 Q When you left. Was there a formal
5 piece of paper or something in writing from
6 the White House that authorized your being
7 able to take them?
8 A I signed several forms or some
9 types of documents, Mr. Klayman. I'm not
10 sure sitting here today which ones
11 specifically related to my documents, if any
12 did. But I -- I recall signing several
13 forms.
14 Q Where were those documents taken
15 when you took them off the premises?
16 A I took them here to a transition
17 office in Washington before I return home to
18 after Labor Day, home to Arkansas after Labor
19 Day.
20 Q Where is that transition office?
21 A It's at 1201 Connecticut.
22 Q Is there a suite at 1201
33
1 Connecticut?
2 A They are part -- office complex
3 there.
4 Q But what is the suite number?
5 MR. SPAEDER: What floor number, if
6 you know.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah.
8 THE WITNESS: Sixth floor. Do we
9 need to provide that?
10 Mr. Klayman, may I ask you to pause
11 here for a moment?
12 (Witness conferred with counsel)
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Is there an enterprise that's
15 located at that address?
16 A Yes, it's the Zuckerman, Spaeder
17 law firm.
18 Q So you have a suite inside
19 Zuckerman, Spaeder?
20 A I have an office there.
21 Q Where are the documents kept at
22 Zuckerman, Spaeder?
34
1 A They are in that office complex,
2 where my administrative assistant sits.
3 Q Who is your administrative
4 assistant?
5 A Diane Farrell.
6 Q Diane?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Did she work with you at the White
9 House?
10 A She did not.
11 Q Who were your top administrative
12 assistants at the White House?
13 A Patty McHugh was my administrative
14 assistant.
15 Q If you could spell these names for
16 the court reporter, assuming you can.
17 A M-c-h-u-g-h, capital H, and I think
18 it's Patty, and I should know --
19 Q Proving that republicans are not
20 the only ones that have problems spelling
21 names?
22 A I think I can conclusively prove
35
1 that, as Patty McHugh knows very well having
2 caught a number of my misspellings over the
3 years. She was my primary administrative
4 assistant, Mr. Klayman.
5 Q Was there anyone else during the
6 time you were at the White House?
7 A Yes, there was.
8 Q Who?
9 A Nelson Cunningham has worked with
10 me in recent years and prior to that Bill
11 Burton and Paul Toback.
12 Q The last person? I'm sorry.
13 A Toback, T-o-b-a-c-k.
14 Q Are these people still with the
15 White House?
16 A Ms. McHugh is.
17 Q Where are the others, Nelson and
18 Bill and there was one other?
19 A Paul Toback.
20 Q Paul Toback.
21 A Mr. Toback returned to Chicago, is
22 in the private sector there.
36
1 Q Who is he working for now?
2 A He is working with Bally
3 International, the fitness -- fitness center
4 organization.
5 Q Bill?
6 A Mr. Burton returned to Jones, Day
7 law firm in Austin -- in Dallas, Texas.
8 Q Nelson Cunningham?
9 A Mr. Cunningham is still working
10 with me at the present time at Zuckerman,
11 Spaeder.
12 Q What are his duties and
13 responsibilities there?
14 A He's helping me with the transition
15 as I transition back to private life.
16 Q Now, I take it among the documents
17 that you took from the White House were
18 documents related to the Travelgate
19 controversy?
20 A In the various matters of legal
21 proceedings I believe that was certainly one
22 of them and I think there are documents
37
1 related to that, yes.
2 Q Documents related to the Filegate
3 controversy?
4 A To the extent I had any documents
5 regarding that particular matter.
6 Q Were there documents related to any
7 other of the Clinton controversies which you
8 took?
9 A The documents relate to all of the
10 legal proceedings that I have asked -- have
11 been asked to be a witness in. So there are
12 number of times where I have been asked to be
13 a witness and I have various documents
14 relating to that legal proceeding where I
15 have been asked to appear.
16 Q Please tell us what proceedings you
17 have been asked to be a witness and which
18 proceedings you actually testified in?
19 A Mr. Klayman, let me think for just
20 a moment. I have been asked to appear before
21 congressional committees and have given a
22 number of depositions and interviews on a
38
1 number of matters.
2 Q To the best of your recollection
3 tell us when you appeared, generally, what
4 was the subject matter of your appearance and
5 what committee you appeared in front of.
6 A Without some jogging of my memory
7 or reflecting my records I'm not certain that
8 today I can give you the date, but --
9 Q As best you can.
10 A Let's me do the best I can. I
11 appeared before Chairman Riegle's committee
12 and then before Chairman D'Amato committee.
13 I believe those were regarding certain
14 finance inquiries, but I would -- again, have
15 to really refresh my memory -- they have been
16 a number of years ago -- on that matter.
17 I appeared before the House
18 committee in an earlier point in time.
19 Q Which committee was that,
20 Government Reform and Oversight?
21 A I believe that's correct.
22 Q What controversies were involved,
39
1 if any?
2 A Mr. Klayman, without reviewing my
3 records and really reflecting on these
4 matters, I can't sit here today and give you
5 each of these.
6 Q Well, let's see if we can do it
7 just generally.
8 A I don't want to give you --
9 Q What appearances did you make, if
10 any, concerning the Travelgate controversy
11 and which committees?
12 A I think I've had depositions on the
13 Travelgate matter, travel matter. I don't
14 recall the congressional hearings about
15 those, but I could be mistaken.
16 Q What committees, if any, did you
17 appear in front of concerning the Filegate
18 matter?
19 A I don't believe I appeared before
20 any committees regarding that matter.
21 Q The issues involving Travelgate,
22 however, did, in part, concern obtaining FBI
40
1 files, did they not?
2 A I don't recall that linkage in that
3 manner, not the travel matter as I was
4 involved in. They involved no files that I
5 was involved in.
6 Q Have you ever been called to appear
7 before a Grand Jury?
8 A I have.
9 Q When was that?
10 A Mr. Klayman, may I confer with my
11 attorney?
12 Q Certainly.
13 A Thank you.
14 (Witness conferred with counsel)
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I want to
16 be sure I handle this matter properly. I
17 have appeared before a number of grand juries
18 and it was -- it's my understanding, that's
19 the reason I conferred with my attorney, that
20 I should not discuss the subject matter
21 regarding those appearances.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
41
1 Q No, I'm just asking for the
2 appearances, not the subject matter.
3 A I have appeared before grand
4 juries.
5 Q Have you appeared before a Grand
6 Jury that was working under the authority of
7 an independent counsel investigation?
8 A Yes, I have.
9 Q Involving Ken Starr?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you appear in front of a Grand
12 Jury with regard to any matter concerning
13 Travelgate or Filegate?
14 A Yes.
15 Q When was that?
16 A I don't have the exact date or know
17 the --
18 Q Roughly speaking?
19 A Mr. Klayman, I don't -- don't
20 recall the exact date or the rough date.
21 Q Do you remember the year?
22 A I think it's been over a year ago.
42
1 I just simply don't recall the time period.
2 Q Were you subpoenaed to appear
3 before the Grand Jury?
4 A In most cases, if not all, I
5 voluntarily agreed to appear. I think there
6 were some cases where there may have been a
7 subpoena issued any way and certainly I
8 complied with the subpoena, but in most cases
9 I think I volunteered to cooperate with
10 whatever review it was.
11 Q These were Starr grand juries?
12 A I think you've asked me about
13 several grand juries.
14 Q I'm just trying to focus on this
15 question here with regard to Filegate and
16 Travelgate.
17 A With regard to Filegate or
18 Travelgate?
19 Q Yeah, both.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
21 Compound.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
43
1 Q You can respond. Let's take it
2 with regard to Travelgate.
3 A Okay.
4 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, let me
5 interpose the following objection: I think
6 you're entitled to know, it's fair game,
7 whether he's testified before a Grand Jury.
8 I think to the extent that you start
9 exploring the identity of the convening
10 prosecutor, be it independent counsel or the
11 Department of Justice, you are, effectively,
12 seeking information about the subject matter
13 of the Grand Jury's inquiry, which we believe
14 is privileged, and we do intend to instruct
15 the witness not to answer pursuant to
16 Rule 6(e). So I hope you will be cautious
17 and move along.
18 He's happy to tell you about the
19 non-Grand Jury appearances as he remembers
20 them, but we are going to instruct him not to
21 discuss matters occurring before the Grand
22 Jury or information that would reveal the
44
1 identity of subject matters before which a
2 Grand Jury received evidence.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: You're instructing
4 him not to answer on that?
5 MR. SPAEDER: Well, I'd like to
6 hear the pending question, if the court
7 reporter can read it back.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm trying to
9 get some basic information.
10 MR. SPAEDER: Sure. I mean we
11 don't want to interfere with that, but I
12 think to the extent you identify the
13 investigating officials or authorities, it's
14 possibly a back door way of acquiring
15 information about the content of the
16 investigation. May I have the pending
17 question?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I can rephrase it. I
19 think it will be easier.
20 MR. SPAEDER: All right.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Did you appear before a Grand Jury
45
1 concerning Travelgate? Leave it at that.
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Did you appear before a Grand Jury
4 concerning Filegate?
5 A No, I do not believe I have.
6 Q Have you ever produced documents to
7 the Grand Jury concerning Filegate?
8 A I have been responsive to any
9 requests to produce documents to the White
10 House counsel regarding a number of these
11 matters and I believe that would include
12 Filegate. Whether it was subject to Grand
13 Jury or a congressional oversight or a
14 deposition, Mr. Klayman, I don't think I made
15 that fine a distinction.
16 Q But you, yourself, never received a
17 subpoena from any Grand Jury to produce
18 documents in the controversy known as
19 Filegate?
20 A No, I don't think I -- that is not
21 my testimony.
22 Q Well, I'm asking you that. You
46
1 never received personally a subpoena to
2 provide documents concerning Filegate?
3 A We have had a number of document
4 requests over the past several years about
5 various matters. As a layperson, I'm not a
6 lawyer, if you -- if you know, I don't think
7 I distinguished between a document request, a
8 subpoena for document request or what type of
9 congressional hearing or Grand Jury,
10 whatever. But as I have received document
11 requests, regardless of the exact form,
12 including Filegate, I have to the very best
13 of my ability tried to respond to that fully
14 to White House counsel.
15 Q What I'm trying to establish is
16 that the document request that you responded
17 to where you provided documents to White
18 House counsel, was not a document request
19 which went to you Mack McLarty, it went to
20 the White House, correct?
21 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure I can
22 make that distinction this morning, I'm
47
1 sorry, because I think we received requests
2 both ways. I believe it went to the White
3 House, but I'm not confident of that. I
4 responded either way.
5 Q In any event, you've never provided
6 testimony concerning Filegate before today,
7 correct?
8 A I believe I have been asked about
9 this in one of the depositions that I gave
10 earlier. I think earlier you had asked me
11 about Grand Jury testimony.
12 Q You responded with regard to
13 Filegate in a congressional deposition?
14 A I believe that is correct, yes.
15 Q But you never answered questions
16 concerning Filegate before a Grand Jury, to
17 the best of your knowledge?
18 A To the best of my knowledge and
19 memory, that is correct.
20 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, I just have
21 a question. I don't want to segment your
22 examination you, but he has referred to his
48
1 location at the offices of Zuckerman,
2 Spaeder. It would be helpful to me, so I
3 don't have to do a cross, if you might
4 determine whether he's practicing law at
5 Zuckerman, Spaeder or whether he is a
6 subtenant. Otherwise we'll just ask a few
7 follow-up cross questions. I just want the
8 record to be clear.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can answer that question.
11 A I am not qualified or licensed to
12 practice law and I am a subtenant of the law
13 firm.
14 Q Who is the sublessee?
15 A McLarty Companies.
16 Q Are you paying anything for that
17 subtenancy?
18 A I have asked our office manager to
19 work with Zuckerman, Spaeder's office manager
20 to work out the terms of my transition up
21 there for a couple of months.
22 Q How long have you been there?
49
1 A About two weeks or three weeks,
2 Mr. Klayman, since I left government.
3 Q Now, when you responded to the
4 subpoena that you were served on in this
5 case, did you yourself review the documents
6 that have been produced today?
7 A I have reviewed some documents,
8 yes.
9 Q Who assisted you, if anyone, in
10 gathering up documents to produce in response
11 to Judicial Watch's subpoena?
12 A My personal attorneys have assisted
13 me and instructed to take your request
14 seriously and respond to it appropriately.
15 Q Did you review each and every
16 document that was produced?
17 A No, not each and every document.
18 Q Did you review each and every
19 document that was not produced?
20 A No, I did not.
21 Q Did you review a list of privileged
22 documents?
50
1 A I'm aware of a privilege log, but
2 I've not reviewed those specific documents.
3 Q Have you ever reviewed the log
4 itself?
5 A I have reviewed the log.
6 Q When did you do that?
7 A In the last week or so.
8 Q Where did you do that?
9 A I did that in the offices of my
10 attorneys.
11 Q When you reviewed that log, did you
12 have the documents that were claimed as
13 privilege at the same time?
14 A No, I did not.
15 Q Tell me when you first learned
16 about the controversy which came to be known
17 as Travelgate.
18 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, one point of
19 clarification. I think Travelgate might be
20 defined as the underlying facts as
21 distinguished from the investigation of the
22 underlying facts. Do you want to be specific
51
1 as to time frame?
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q What do you understand -- I'm
4 sorry. Are you finished?
5 MR. SPAEDER: Yes.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q What do you understand the
8 controversy that came to be known as
9 Travelgate to be about?
10 A My understanding and recollection
11 is the controversy regarding the travel
12 matter occurred when the Travel Office
13 employees were terminated in 1993. That is
14 my understanding, Mr. Klayman, of the travel
15 matter that you're asking me about.
16 Q What do you understand the
17 controversy which came to be known as
18 Filegate to be about?
19 A It involves certain FBI files, I
20 believe, that the White House had and how
21 those files were used -- allegedly used. I
22 believe that's how I would characterize
52
1 that -- the Filegate matter, to use your
2 terminology.
3 Q When did you first become aware
4 when you were working at the White House of a
5 controversy which became known as Travelgate?
6 A I believe that controversy,
7 Mr. Klayman, as I define it and understand
8 it, occurred almost contemporaneously --
9 shortly after the termination of the Travel
10 Office employees.
11 Q When did you first become aware, if
12 at all, that the Travel Office employees,
13 some of them, were going to be terminated?
14 A When Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster
15 recommended their termination to me in 1993.
16 Q Prior to their recommending their
17 termination, "their" meaning Mr. Watkins and
18 Mr. Foster, had you ever talked about the
19 Travel Office with anyone?
20 A Yes, I had.
21 Q Who was that?
22 A Well, I had discussed it with
53
1 Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster and some other
2 colleagues in the White House. I discussed
3 it with Mrs. Clinton and I think when I say
4 other people in the White House, that covers
5 whoever else I might have discussed this
6 particular decision or matter about.
7 Q Who were those other colleagues?
8 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure sitting
9 here today I can recall all of the other
10 colleagues.
11 Q As best you can.
12 A I discussed it with -- the matter
13 came up with other people in the White House.
14 I believe Mr. Gearan would be part of that
15 group.
16 Q Mark Gearan?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Communications director at the
19 time?
20 A I think Mr. Gearan -- I can't
21 recall, Mr. Klayman, he may have still been
22 Deputy Chief of Staff at that time. He was
54
1 later communications director, you're
2 correct. I discussed it, I believe, with
3 Mr. Stephanopoulos, and I'm just not sure
4 whom else sitting here today.
5 Q Who first brought the issue to your
6 attention, the removal of certain employees
7 in the Travel Office?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to
9 interpose a relevancy objection. I don't see
10 how this ties into anything that is defined
11 as relevant.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You can respond.
14 A I believe Mr. Watkins first brought
15 the matter to my attention, not necessarily
16 the termination of the employees, but that
17 there could possibly be certain improprieties
18 in the Travel Office. I believe Mr. Watkins
19 was the first person who brought this to my
20 attention.
21 Q Prior to Mr. Watkins, did anyone
22 bring to your attention a desire to change
55
1 personnel in the Travel Office?
2 A No, they did not.
3 Q Prior to having the matter brought
4 to your attention did you discuss the Travel
5 Office in any way with Mrs. Clinton?
6 A I did.
7 Q When was that?
8 A It was some time before this
9 decision was made, a couple of weeks I think.
10 Q Before Watkins talked to you?
11 A No, before the decision was made
12 regarding the termination of the Travel
13 Office.
14 Q But my question was, who first
15 mentioned the words "Travel Office" to you?
16 Was it Watkins or Mrs. Clinton?
17 A No, it was Mr. Watkins as I
18 remember it, Mr. Klayman. I thought that's
19 what my testimony said.
20 Q When did that occur, roughly
21 speaking?
22 A I don't recall the specific time.
56
1 I think it was May of 1993.
2 Q Did Mr. Watkins raise the issue or
3 did you raise it?
4 A No, he raised it with me, as I
5 remember.
6 Q Did he do so in a meeting or by
7 telephone or some other method of
8 communication?
9 A I believe by telephone.
10 Q Was anyone present listening to the
11 conversation?
12 A No.
13 Q What did Mr. Watkins tell you?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object
15 again on relevancy grounds. I will have a
16 standing objection to all questions about the
17 Travel Office that don't relate to government
18 files or the FBI files.
19 MS. ZIEGLER: I join in that
20 objection.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, as you know, I
22 don't need to go over it. I think everybody
57
1 knows it that knows anything about all these
2 controversies, that Filegate arose from
3 Travelgate. But let's continue. You can
4 have your standing objection. It can go
5 right through the end of the deposition.
6 That's okay.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Go ahead.
9 A Would you repeat the question?
10 Q The question was, what did
11 Mr. Watkins raise with you?
12 A He raised that there might be
13 certain improprieties,
14 less-than-business-like practices in the
15 Travel Office and he felt we should look into
16 them. That's as I -- the best I remember.
17 That's not verbatim.
18 Q Did he say with whether he had
19 spoken with anyone else about these alleged
20 improprieties?
21 A I believe he said Mrs. Clinton had
22 mentioned these improprieties to him.
58
1 Q Did he say when Mrs. Clinton had
2 mentioned the improprieties to him?
3 A No, I don't recall that he did.
4 Q Did he say how Mrs. Clinton had
5 arrived at mentioning the improprieties to
6 him?
7 A I don't recall that he said, that
8 Mr. Klayman, or made that point in the
9 conversation he had with me.
10 Q Did you ask him how does
11 Mrs. Clinton know there are improprieties in
12 the Travel Office?
13 A I don't recall the specifics of the
14 conversation that well sitting here today. I
15 do recall Mr. Watkins calling me.
16 Q That would have been a logical
17 question to ask based on your experience,
18 wouldn't it?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the
21 record.
22 (Interruption)
59
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q That would have been a logical
3 question, would it not?
4 A Mr. Klayman, I wouldn't disagree
5 that it would have been a logical question.
6 I just don't remember the conversation in
7 this level of detail. That's been several
8 years ago and I just simply don't remember
9 it.
10 Q Well, the Travel Office issue was a
11 very important issue, was it not?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
13 THE WITNESS: It was an issue that
14 had some public profile, yes.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Right. It ultimately resulted in
17 an independent counsel investigation,
18 correct?
19 A It had a thorough review, yes.
20 Q Now, in the course of your
21 considerable experience in business and at
22 the White House, the ability to recollect key
60
1 events is crucial, is it not?
2 A To the best of one's ability.
3 Q This obviously was something which
4 later gave rise to additional controversy by
5 the name of Filegate, correct?
6 A You have made that linkage. I'm
7 just simply not familiar with the facts to
8 conclude that or agree with you.
9 Q You are aware that the discovery of
10 the obtaining of FBI files from the FBI by
11 the White House occurred in the context of
12 the Travelgate controversy? You are aware of
13 that?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
15 Asked and answered.
16 THE WITNESS: In what way,
17 Mr. Klayman?
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You are aware that the Clinger
20 committee, the Government Reform and
21 Oversight Committee, secured documentation
22 from the White House that showed that FBI
61
1 files had been obtained by the White House
2 from the FBI? You are aware of that,
3 correct?
4 A I think I have -- I'm, generally,
5 aware of it. I think I have read about it.
6 I just simply don't know the facts here. I'm
7 just not aware of that information.
8 Q Well, you were White House Chief of
9 Staff at the time, were you not?
10 A Of the --
11 Q At the time that these files were
12 obtained by the White House, the FBI files?
13 A I don't know when the FBI files
14 were obtained, Mr. Klayman. I don't know
15 when they were obtained, so I don't know
16 whether I was still Chief of Staff or not.
17 Q You were an advisor to the
18 President at the time that the discovery was
19 made that these White House files were
20 obtained, correct?
21 A I believe that's the proper period.
22 Q FBI files were obtained, correct?
62
1 Now, that was obviously something
2 that was discussed widely at the time both in
3 the White House and in the media, correct?
4 A You're talking about the FBI files?
5 Q Yes.
6 A It was a matter of public
7 controversy.
8 Q Now, when you talked to
9 Mr. Watkins, you asked him what the
10 improprieties were, did you not?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
12 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I have
13 given you my best recollection that
14 Mr. Watkins informed me that he thought there
15 might be possible improprieties,
16 less-than-business-like practices, those were
17 my words, in the Travel Office and that he
18 was going to look into it. That is all I
19 remember about the conversation with
20 Mr. Watkins several years ago.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q He told you that he had learned of
63
1 those improprieties by talking to
2 Mrs. Clinton?
3 A I believe he mentioned that to me.
4 That's what I said in my earlier testimony.
5 Q Did he mention names of Travel
6 Office employees who had allegedly engaged in
7 improprieties?
8 A I don't recall that he did.
9 Q When he said he was going to look
10 into it, you authorized him to look into it?
11 A I concurred that that was the
12 proper next step.
13 Q Mr. Watkins reported to you,
14 correct?
15 A He did.
16 Q What then did you tell him to do to
17 look into it?
18 A I don't remember that I told him to
19 do any more than that. I think he said he
20 was going to look into that. That's as I
21 recall it, Mr. Klayman.
22 Q Was anything else discussed during
64
1 that conversation with Mr. Watkins?
2 A I don't remember that it was.
3 Q How long was that conversation?
4 A Oh, Mr. Klayman, sitting here today
5 I can't give you the exact length. It was
6 less than 10 minutes.
7 Q Well, what you've recounted to me
8 only took about two minutes. What happened
9 in the other eight?
10 A Well, I didn't say it lasted 10
11 minutes. I said it was less than 10 minutes.
12 I have told you about the conversation to the
13 extent