1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Friday, June 4, 1999 12 Deposition of 13 BERNARD NUSSBAUM 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, beginning at 17 approximately 10:06 a.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary 20 public in and for the District of Columbia, 21 when were present on behalf on the respective 22 parties: Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 4 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 5 (202) 646-5172 6 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 7 Office of the President: 8 JULIA FAYNGOLD COVEY, ESQUIRE ALLISON GILES, ESQUIRE 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 Federal Programs Branch Civil Division 11 United States Department of Justice 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor 12 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 14 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE 15 Williams & Connolly 725 12th Street N.W. 16 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5175 17 On behalf of The White House: 18 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE 19 Special Assistant Counsel to the President The White House 20 Washington, D.C. 20500 (202) 456-5079 21 22 Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 3 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 4 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 5 (212) 403-1000 6 ALSO PRESENT: 7 Thomas Fitton 8 Eric Columbus Michael Leiter 9 10 11 * * * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7 4 Counsel for Defendants Federal 435 Bureau of Investigation 5 and Executive Office of the President 6 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: 7 Counsel for Plaintiffs 437 8 *Proceedings transcribed at pages 93 to 101 9 designated CONFIDENTIAL and bound separately per request 10 NUSSBAUM DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 11 No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments 7 12 No. 2 - Objections to Subpoena 12 13 No. 3 - Letter, Potts to Nussbaum, 124 14 Attachment 15 No. 4 - Memorandum, Beck to Podesta 288 16 No. 5 - [Not Identified] 311 17 No. 6 - Investigation Report 325 18 No. 7 - Nussbaum Sworn Statement 381 19 No. 8 - Article: "White House 382 Contradicted on FBI Files" 20 No. 9 - File Requisitions 385 21 22 * * * * * Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of Bernard 4 Nussbuam, taken by the counsel for the 5 plaintiff, in the matter of Cara Leslie 6 Alexander et al. v. the Federal Bureau of 7 Investigation et al., in the U.S. District 8 Court for the District of Columbia, Case 9 No. 96-2123, held in the offices of Judicial 10 Watch, 501 School Street Southwest, 11 Washington, D.C., on this date, June 4, 1999, 12 and at the time indicated on the video 13 screen, which is 10:06 a.m. 14 My name is Sylvanus Holley; I'm the 15 videographer. The court reporter today is 16 Joan Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting. 17 Will counsel now introduce 18 themselves? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 20 general counsel and chairman of Judicial 21 Watch. 22 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president, Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   0*0*0*°° Ô 6 1 Judicial Watch. 2 MR. MAZUR: Robert Mazur, Wachtell 3 Lipton Rosen & Katz; I represent 4 Mr. Nussbaum. 5 MS. GILES: Allison Giles with the 6 Justice Department representing Defendants 7 Executive Office of the President and the 8 FBI. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro, 10 from the Department of Justice representing 11 the same Defendants. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, 13 Department of Justice also representing the 14 same Defendants. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 16 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 17 Lady with me. To my left is Michael Leiter, 18 a summer associate at Williams & Connolly. 19 MS. COVEY: Julia Fayngold Covey, 20 Department of Justice, representing the EOP 21 and FBI. 22 Whereupon, Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   0*0*0*°° Ô 7 1 BERNARD W. NUSSBAUM 2 was called as a witness and, having been 3 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 4 as follows: 5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Please state your name. 8 A Bernard W. Nussbuam. 9 Q Mr. Nussbaum, I'm going to show you 10 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 11 Exhibit 1. It is a subpoena duces tecum 12 which has been issued for your attendance 13 here today, June 4, at 10:00 a.m. 14 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 15 No. 1 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you seen this document before? 19 A Yes. 20 Q When did you see it? 21 A Shortly after it arrived in our 22 offices. Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 8 1 Q And when was that, approximately? 2 A Shortly after May 28. 3 Q Did you have an opportunity to 4 review the request for documents contained in 5 this subpoena duces tecum? 6 A Yes, I reviewed it with -- I turned 7 -- a copy of the subpoena was given to my 8 attorney, Mr. Mazur, and we reviewed together 9 the request for documents. 10 Q Did you search for documents in 11 response to this subpoena? 12 A Well, this is not the first 13 subpoena. There was a prior subpoena; is 14 that correct? Is that correct? 15 Q I'm asking the questions. 16 A Was there a -- you won't answer 17 whether there's a prior subpoena? All right. 18 It's my understanding, in answer to your 19 question, that there was a prior subpoena, 20 and in connection with that prior subpoena 21 for the production of documents, Mr. Mazur 22 and I also reviewed that together. We read Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 9 1 each of the requests, and then I showed 2 Mr. Mazur where all the documents that may be 3 responsive to the subpoena were. There was 4 files -- some files in my office in New York, 5 some files in different parts of my law firm, 6 and Mr. Mazur and I then examined those 7 various files and produced -- I understand he 8 produced various documents in response to 9 that subpoena. 10 Q So you never checked this subpoena 11 to see if it contained any additional 12 requests or slightly different requests as 13 compared with the prior subpoena? 14 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 15 the question. 16 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, we did. 17 Mr. Mazur checked this subpoena and compared 18 it to the prior subpoena. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q But you didn't do it yourself? 21 A We did it together. We discussed 22 the subpoena together, yes. Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 10 1 Q It's your position that this 2 subpoena requires the production of the same 3 documents that the prior subpoena required? 4 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: No, it's not 7 identical to the prior subpoena. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How is it unidentical? 10 A Well, you have to show me the prior 11 subpoena, and I have to go -- 12 Q What I'm asking you is did you 13 search for any additional documents requested 14 in this subpoena that you hadn't searched for 15 in the prior subpoena? 16 A What I did with respect to this 17 subpoena is we looked at a subpoena together, 18 I told Mr. Mazur -- I turned it over to 19 Mr. Mazur at that point, and I said to 20 Mr. Mazur we had done a prior search of 21 documents together in response to the prior 22 subpoena. You know where my documents are. Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 11 1 They're still in the same place that they 2 were before. If there's any additional 3 documents that are required to be turned over 4 by this subpoena and they're not privileged 5 or anything, then turn them over. 6 MR. MAZUR: If it could be helpful, 7 we have determined that there are no 8 additional documents that need to be produced 9 in response to this subpoena, given 10 objections that we have to the subpoena, and 11 these are the objections that we have to the 12 subpoena. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: These are the new 14 objections? 15 MR. MAZUR: Objections to the new 16 subpoena, not the old subpoena. We have 17 previously objected, responded, and produced 18 documents in response to the old subpoena, 19 and this is what we have to say about the new 20 one. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have copies of 22 this for the other parties here? Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 12 1 MR. MAZUR: Yes, I do. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that these 3 objections be marked as Exhibit 2. 4 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 5 No. 2 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mazur, were there 8 any documents that were required to be 9 produced by this new subpoena that you call 10 it on June 4, which is today, which you are 11 claiming privilege on and for which a 12 privilege log should be produced? 13 MR. MAZUR: I don't know the answer 14 to the question. This subpoena arrived in 15 our office apparently on Saturday. I did not 16 become aware of this subpoena until Tuesday, 17 Monday being Memorial Day, and Mr. Nussbaum 18 didn't become aware of it until Tuesday, two 19 days before the deposition, with the Gorham 20 deposition in between. We are satisfied that 21 there are no documents that Mr. Nussbaum has 22 that are responsive to this subpoena. Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 13 1 They're in effect Mr. Nussbaum's 2 personal documents, no additional ones. As I 3 think we advised you, we construed the prior 4 subpoena as reaching not only his personal 5 documents but also reaching documents that 6 our law firm had. What we have are things 7 that were either gathered or created as a 8 result of the various investigations and 9 indeed is real to this case. 10 So, obviously, we have things that 11 are responsive to this subpoena which we 12 received in pleadings and stuff from all the 13 people in his room. We did not have time to 14 do a complete listing of all of these 15 privileged documents, and I assume you don't 16 want us to list internal work product that we 17 have in this case on a privilege log. 18 To get more specific, the new items 19 appear to be things related to Kathleen 20 Willey and the release of information about 21 her by The White House, and Mr. Nussbaum has 22 nothing about that. The other new item, I Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 14 1 think, was Linda Tripp's Defense Department 2 file, and again that was all after 3 Mr. Nussbaum left The White House, and we 4 don't have anything relating to that that 5 didn't come to us in the course of the 6 representation in this case. 7 The other item that was new, I 8 believe, was removal of documents from Vince 9 Foster's office. We have thousands of 10 documents at Wachtell, Lipton relating to 11 that subject by virtue of Congressional 12 hearings and things like that. We don't 13 really regard that as being relevant to this 14 case. 15 We probably have privileged 16 documents in that category. It would take 17 not hours or days but weeks to produce a 18 privilege log on that subject, which we 19 regard to be irrelevant to this case. 20 So the answer to your question is I 21 believe we have privileged documents and 22 certainly work product that relate to that Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 15 1 subject and we haven't produced a log, and if 2 it's necessary we will produce a log, but we 3 couldn't do it consistent with the timing of 4 this deposition. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, for purposes of 6 this deposition I understand your position. 7 With regard to the issues concerning the 8 removal of documents from Vince Foster's 9 office, perhaps I could discuss that 10 preliminarily with you if Mr. Nussbaum would 11 be so kind as to go into the other room 12 because it may bear on some of the testimony. 13 MR. MAZUR: He'll answer questions 14 about that. We're not saying he won't answer 15 questions. You're asking about a privilege 16 log. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Let me ask you this. Have you read 19 Linda Tripp's deposition in this case, 20 Mr. Nussbaum? 21 A No. 22 Q Can I ask you to go into the other Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ    0*0*0*°° Ô 16 1 room so I can discuss this briefly with you? 2 MR. MAZUR: Sure. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: I'll show him the 4 way. I will not talk to him about the case. 5 Mr. Nussbaum, let me take you to the cone of 6 silence. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: The cone of silence, 8 it is? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for purposes of 11 the record, you've read Linda Tripp's 12 deposition, haven't you? 13 MR. MAZUR: I was here for most of 14 it. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: You're aware that she 16 testified that she saw FBI files of Dale and 17 others in that office? 18 MR. MAZUR: Correct. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: That obviously makes 20 the whole issue relevant to this case. This 21 is something which became much more relevant 22 after her testimony, and that's why we need Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   0*0*0*°° Ô 17 1 to get documents and testimony about that 2 issue, what was removed from Vince Foster's 3 office. 4 MR. MAZUR: Let me say that the 5 timing of that meeting was supposedly around 6 the timing of the Travel Office firings, and 7 you can ask him questions about that and 8 he'll answer the questions. I don't think we 9 have any documents relating to that subject. 10 The Foster office removal of documents issues 11 I'm talking about relate to the time of his 12 death, which is separated in time, and I'm 13 not saying he won't testify about that. I'm 14 saying we got off on this because you asked 15 about a privilege log. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand. We 17 don't know all of the time frames. We just 18 know a snapshot from Linda Tripp. She 19 clearly makes this a relevant issue. I 20 understand you may need more time. Can you 21 get back to me quickly as to how much time 22 you need to go through all your documents on Ô  h)! 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   " 0*0*0*°° Ô 18 1 the removal of documents from Vince Foster's 2 office? 3 MR. MAZUR: In response to the 4 subpoena, we object to producing the 5 documents relating to the removal of 6 documents from Foster's office. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: You're going to take 8 a firm position on that? You're going to 9 require us to file a motion to compel on 10 that? 11 MR. MAZUR: I can't tell you 12 whether we're going to do that. I can tell 13 you we're not going to do it between now and 14 the completion -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Understood. Just 16 tell me how much time you need so we can 17 alleviate the issue and not have to burden 18 the court with a motion to compel. 19 MR. MAZUR: When we get back to the 20 New York, I'll take a look at the volume of 21 it. It wouldn't involve any more documents 22 to you that you don't have. It would involve Ô  h)# 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   $ 0*0*0*°° Ô 19 1 a privilege log and a very extensive 2 privilege log. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: It may involve 4 documents we don't have because obviously you 5 didn't view this as part of the case until we 6 sent this subpoena to you. I know you still 7 don't view it as part of the case, but our 8 position is it's relevant. I can only assume 9 you've never searched for documents related 10 to what was removed from Foster's office. 11 MR. MAZUR: It is correct that we 12 did not search for those documents. What I'm 13 telling you is, as you know, there were 14 congressional hearings and other proceedings 15 relating to the removal of documents from 16 Foster's office. My law firm represented 17 Mr. Nussbaum in connection with those 18 matters. 19 We obtained in the course of that 20 representation numerous documents relating to 21 the removal of things from Foster's office. 22 The vast bulk of them are in the nature of Ô  h)% 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   & 0*0*0*°° Ô 20 1 deposition testimony, congressional hearing 2 testimony, and documents that were marked as 3 exhibits and that we obtained in some 4 congressional hearing where somebody said, 5 here's the exhibits. 6 And I'm saying all of that is 7 probably on the Internet. We think probably 8 you have all of that stuff here. What I'm 9 trying to tell you is, if you take away that 10 category of things, namely, things that 11 became public in that matter, I think he 12 doesn't have any documents. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: But he may and it may 14 not just be limited to those categories, so 15 you have to do a search, and the fact that it 16 was done in other proceedings, we've 17 uncovered many things in this case that have 18 not been uncovered in other proceedings. 19 MR. MAZUR: He doesn't have 20 documents relating to removal of documents 21 from Foster's office that we did not obtain 22 through other public proceedings. Ô  h)' 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ( 0*0*0*°° Ô 21 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand what 2 your firm doesn't have but he may have other 3 documents. Anyway, let's bring him back. 4 MS. GILES: We disagree with your 5 theory of relevancy as to Mr. Foster. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sure you do. I 7 think we can stipulate that we disagree to 8 every aspect of this case. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Mr. Nussbaum, when you were working 11 at The White House, what were the dates that 12 you were employed there? 13 A January 20, 1993, until April 5, 14 1994. I resigned on March 5, 1994, but I 15 stayed on for a period of weeks thereafter. 16 I think my official termination date was 17 April 5, 1994. 18 Q And during the time that you worked 19 at The White House, where did you reside? 20 A I resided -- most of the time I 21 worked at the White House, I resided at the 22 Watergate, not the hotel. I had an apartment Ô  h)) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   * 0*0*0*°° Ô 22 1 there. For a short time I lived in a hotel, 2 not the Watergate hotel, another hotel, prior 3 to moving into the Watergate. 4 Q What hotel was that? 5 A The Jefferson. 6 Q And during the time you worked in 7 The White House I take it you stayed at the 8 Watergate Hotel or the Jefferson Hotel when 9 you were in Washington, D.C.? 10 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 11 the question. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q When you were in Washington, D.C.? 14 A Prior to the time I worked in The 15 White House? 16 Q No, when you were at The White 17 House, during the period. 18 A During the period I worked at The 19 White House I stayed first at the Jefferson 20 Hotel for about a month and then I rented an 21 apartment at the Watergate Apartments, and I 22 stayed there. Ô  h)+ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   , 0*0*0*°° Ô 23 1 Q But you periodically also traveled 2 back to the New York area? 3 A Oh, yes. 4 Q And where did you reside in the New 5 York area during the period you worked at The 6 White House? 7 A I have an apartment in Manhattan, 8 and I have a house in Westchester County. At 9 one point I rented the apartment so I didn't 10 reside there. I would stay at my house in 11 Westchester County if I went back to 12 Manhattan -- if I went back to New York City. 13 Q During the time that you worked in 14 The White House, I take it that sometimes you 15 took documents home at night? 16 A Very rarely. 17 Q But you did? You had a briefcase, 18 correct? 19 A I rarely -- I had a briefcase, yes. 20 I rarely took documents at home at night out 21 of The White House. I worked long hours and 22 when I went home I didn't need documents at Ô  h)- 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   . 0*0*0*°° Ô 24 1 that point. I'm not saying I never took a 2 document home. I may have taken a document 3 at home one time to work on it. It's 4 possible. I don't remember it, actually, 5 because I recall when I left the office at 6 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00 or o'clock there was no 7 need to take a document home. I'd be there 8 at 6:30 or 7:00 o'clock I'd start working 9 again so I rarely took documents home. 10 Q Did you search any of your 11 residences for documents which are responsive 12 to Judicial Watch's subpoenas? 13 A I know there are no documents in my 14 residences because I never took any documents 15 to my residence which would be responsible to 16 Judicial Watch subpoenas. 17 Q But the answer is you never 18 searched those residences? 19 A I never searched those residences 20 for documents because I know there are no 21 documents there. 22 Q During the time that you worked in Ô  h)/ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   0 0*0*0*°° Ô 25 1 The White House did you have a laptop 2 computer? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you have a computer at any of 5 your residences, or did you sometimes go into 6 your old office at Wachtell, Lipton and work 7 there? 8 A No, I never did. 9 Q Never went there once? 10 A I may have gone there once, but I 11 never went there to work. I might have done 12 it to visit people, maybe once. 13 Q Did you ever use a computer outside 14 of The White House during that period? 15 A No, I don't use a computer, 16 Mr. Klayman. 17 Q Did you ever send documents outside 18 of The White House when you worked in The 19 White House, by e-mail? 20 A No. 21 Q I take it you did mail documents 22 out of The White House and have them hand Ô  h)1 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   2 0*0*0*°° Ô 26 1 delivered? 2 A Sure, I mailed letters and things 3 like that. 4 Q Did you ever have any of those 5 documents delivered to your residences or 6 your old law firm? 7 A No. 8 Q During the time that you worked in 9 The White House, who was your secretary? 10 A I had a number of secretaries. 11 Q In other words, who would prepare 12 documents for you? 13 A Various people would. 14 Q I take it, since you don't use a 15 computer, you dictate correspondence? 16 A Yes. 17 Q On a Dictaphone or did you have 18 people take it shorthand? 19 A Shorthand. 20 Q Who worked for you during that 21 period that helped you prepare documents when 22 you worked in The White House? Ô  h)3 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   4 0*0*0*°° Ô 27 1 A Who I remember are Cynthia McManus 2 -- I believe that was her name. There may 3 have been somebody before that. I went 4 through a number of secretaries in the first 5 two or three months. One of them was Cynthia 6 McManus and then -- 7 Q Do you know where Cynthia is today? 8 A I don't know where she is today. 9 Then -- I believe that's her name. I'm not 10 even 100-percent positive it's her name. 11 Then Betsy Pond came to work for me, and then 12 Linda Tripp came to work for me, Deborah 13 Gorham worked in that office, and while I 14 didn't use Deborah Gorham a lot I may have 15 used her from time to time. 16 The people who I primarily remember 17 working with for virtually most of my stay in 18 The White House were Betsy Pond and Linda 19 Tripp. I would dictate to them, and they 20 would prepare the letters or any other 21 document that I had typed. 22 Q I take it they kept chron files for Ô  h)5 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   6 0*0*0*°° Ô 28 1 you of correspondence that went out? 2 A I believe so, yes. 3 Q Did you keep copies of the chron 4 files yourself when you left The White House? 5 Did you take your chron -- 6 A The only thing I remember taking 7 when I left The White House is personal 8 correspondence files, people writing me 9 letters congratulating me on becoming White 10 House counsel, friends writing me while I was 11 in The White House, and my responses, you 12 know, to those letters. 13 That's the only documents I 14 remember taking from The White House, you 15 know, from my files. It's possible that I 16 took -- if I took any other documents from 17 the White House, copies of those documents 18 would have been left remaining in The White 19 House. I don't remember at this moment 20 taking any other documents, but I presume I 21 may have taken other documents from the White 22 House. But I certainly didn't take any Ô  h)7 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   8 0*0*0*°° Ô 29 1 document out of The White House of which 2 there's not a copy in The White House other 3 than personal correspondence. 4 Q What is the reason that you 5 resigned on March 5, 1994, or reasons? 6 A Well, I resigned because I had 7 become a very controversial figure in 8 Washington at that point. There were all 9 sorts -- the press was critical of what it 10 perceived to be, you know, some of my 11 conduct, you know, wrongly critical. I think 12 my conduct was proper in every respect, and I 13 think the President and I concluded -- 14 certainly the President concluded that I 15 became an impediment to him getting on with 16 his agenda, which at that time a big portion 17 was health care and things like that, and 18 that if I left, it would be easier for him to 19 get on with his agenda rather than, you 20 know -- 21 Q So he asked you to resign? 22 A Yes, he asked me to resign. Ô  h)9 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   : 0*0*0*°° Ô 30 1 Q You were being accused of all kinds 2 of things during that period? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And as a lawyer of many years, a 5 litigator, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q A renowned litigator? 8 A A notorious litigator. And 9 notorious White House counsel now. 10 Q You obviously wanted to keep some 11 documents to protect yourself, correct? 12 A No. 13 Q You had a concern that people at 14 The White House could make you the fall guy 15 for things? 16 A No, not particularly. It's 17 possible but not particularly. I had no such 18 concern. 19 Q Did you ever before you left The 20 White House say I'd like to keep these 21 documents just to have them for my records so 22 I can protect myself in the future if I'm Ô  h); 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   < 0*0*0*°° Ô 31 1 unjustly accused? 2 A No, I wasn't concerned about people 3 in The White House unjustly accusing me of 4 anything. If they did, they did. Was it 5 possible? Sure, it's possible. I wasn't 6 concerned about being accused of anything 7 because I did nothing which was improper. 8 Q For instance, your name appears on 9 the FBI requisition forms, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And it's always been your position, 12 correct me if I'm wrong, that you don't know 13 how your name got there? 14 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 15 the question. 16 MS. GILES: Join the objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I now know how -- 18 I now know how my name got there. When I was 19 in The White House, I didn't even know about 20 the FBI requisition forms, but now, of 21 course, as a result of the hearings that have 22 taken place I do know about the FBI Ô  h)= 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   > 0*0*0*°° Ô 32 1 requisition forms, and I know that it's been 2 traditional in every administration for the 3 name of The White House counsel, whoever he 4 was, his name to be typed on to that form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Well, your position today is that 7 you know that your name was used on those 8 requisition forms? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And your position is that it was 11 used on that requisition form as a matter of 12 procedure? 13 A Correct. 14 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 15 the question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q But the hard fact is that your name 18 was used, according to your position, without 19 your knowledge, correct? 20 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 THE WITNESS: My instructions were Ô  h)? 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   @ 0*0*0*°° Ô 33 1 -- used without my knowledge? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Yes. 4 A Yes, but my instructions to my 5 staff were when we first came in with respect 6 to various procedures was to follow the 7 procedures of the prior administration, what 8 people did in the past. 9 Q We're going to get into the 10 substance of it later, but what I'm saying is 11 from your perspective, what you believe to be 12 the case today, according to what you've said 13 publicly, what you've just now said in this 14 deposition is that people in The White House 15 were using your name without you knowing 16 about it, correct? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to form. 18 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 19 the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I did not know that 21 my name was being put on the requisition 22 forms which were sent to the FBI. I did know Ô  h)A 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   B 0*0*0*°° Ô 34 1 that I instructed my staff to follow prior 2 procedures of prior administrations, and if 3 in fact a procedure of the prior 4 administration was to put The White House 5 counsel's name on the requisition form that 6 was fine with me. But if you ask me did I 7 know it at the time that my name was actually 8 being typed on those forms or printed on 9 those forms the answer is no. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q At the point you learned that, that 12 was shortly after Filegate broke you learned 13 that? 14 A Yes. 15 Q By the way, how do you describe 16 Filegate? I want to be able to have an easy 17 way of explaining this whole controversy. 18 You understand what Filegate is when I refer 19 to that, correct? 20 A Well, Filegate is the allegation 21 that The White House deliberately, knowingly 22 secured or requested and secured FBI files of Ô  h)C 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   D 0*0*0*°° Ô 35 1 members of the opposite party in an effort to 2 gather information to be used to discredit 3 those people. That's Filegate. That's the 4 allegation of Filegate. That is an absolute 5 falsehood. Filegate is a phantom scandal. 6 There is no such thing as Filegate other than 7 the people's furtive imagination, but if you 8 want the definition of this nonexistent 9 scandal, that's the definition. 10 Q Given the fact that things were 11 happening that you didn't know about, such as 12 your name being used on requisition forms, 13 given your position that you didn't know 14 about that at the time you worked at The 15 White House but only found out later, then 16 you can't tell us, can you, Mr. Nussbaum, 17 that that's a phantom scandal? 18 A Yes, I can. 19 Q Because your position is you didn't 20 have control of the people that were doing 21 it? 22 MS. GILES: Objection to form. Ô  h)E 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   F 0*0*0*°° Ô 36 1 THE WITNESS: I had control of the 2 people and I had knowledge of the people and 3 had great confidence in the people and I 4 still have great confidence in the people. 5 What you're talking about is a mere 6 procedural detail of whose name is printed on 7 a form. I knew The White House requisitioned 8 when we appointed new people for the 9 administration and we ordered background 10 checks. 11 I knew that The White House 12 requested background checks on people. I 13 knew that The White House received forms -- 14 received FBI reports or summary reports with 15 respect to those people, but I never saw the 16 form. I didn't know what was typed on the 17 form. I didn't know the language of the 18 form. But that doesn't mean that I didn't 19 have control of the people, nor does it mean 20 that, you know, that I would know one way or 21 another whether our people were doing 22 anything improper. Ô  h)G 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   H 0*0*0*°° Ô 37 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You just said you had great 3 confidence in the people, correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q You had great confidence in Craig 6 Livingstone? 7 A I had great confidence in Bill 8 Kennedy and in Betsy Pond and in Deborah 9 Gorham. Craig Livingstone I did not know as 10 well. He worked for Bill Kennedy. I didn't 11 have a lot of contact with Craig Livingstone, 12 but from the little contact with Craig 13 Livingstone I never saw him do or say 14 anything improper in any way. 15 Q Well, you just testified you still 16 have great confidence in those people, 17 correct? 18 A Oh, yes. 19 Q You've read all the material or a 20 lot of it dealing with Filegate since you've 21 left The White House, correct? 22 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of Ô  h)I 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   J 0*0*0*°° Ô 38 1 the question. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I've read 3 material dealing with Filegate. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You've learned that Craig 6 Livingstone was a bar bouncer? He had no 7 security experience, correct? 8 MS. GILES: Objection. Leading, 9 argumentative. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether 11 that's true or not. I've read that, yes. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You've learned that Craig 14 Livingstone, according to police reports 15 threatened to bash in the face of his 16 next-door neighbor? 17 A I don't know if that's true or not. 18 Q But you've read that? 19 A I've read a lot of things that 20 aren't true. 21 Q You've read the House report on 22 Filegate? Ô  h)K 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   L 0*0*0*°° Ô 39 1 A No. 2 Q You're aware that Craig Livingstone 3 went around The White House bragging I was 4 hired by Hillary Clinton? You're aware of 5 that, aren't you? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of 9 that. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You're aware that Craig Livingstone 12 is somebody who at one point there was 13 discussion as to whether he should be let go, 14 correct? 15 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 16 the question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q While you were at The White House? 19 A No, I don't recall at this point 20 that discussion. 21 Q You're aware from what you've 22 learned since then that Craig Livingstone was Ô  h)M 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   N 0*0*0*°° Ô 40 1 in charge of having people go around the 2 country during the election in 1992 in 3 chicken suits, correct? 4 A I'm not aware of that. 5 Q You're aware that Craig Livingstone 6 was the director of the office of security 7 personnel, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q He wasn't some lackey, was he? 10 A No. 11 Q He had a substantial position, 12 correct? 13 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Correct? 17 A It was an administrative position. 18 Q Under your direct control as White 19 House counsel, correct? 20 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 MS. GILES: Object to the form. Ô  h)O 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   P 0*0*0*°° Ô 41 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Correct? 3 A He was in the chain of command, 4 yes. 5 Q Now, you don't still have great 6 confidence in Craig Livingstone, do you? 7 A Actually, I do. 8 Q Why? 9 A Because I think he was a good, 10 decent, hard-working person, and I don't know 11 of anything wrong that he's ever done. I 12 personally don't know of anything wrong he's 13 ever done. 14 Q Now, when you learned more 15 information about what occurred in Filegate 16 after you'd left, you did ask people at The 17 White House what have you learned about 18 Filegate, what happened here? You did make 19 such inquiries, didn't you? 20 A Yes, I made an inquiry to Bill 21 Kennedy. 22 Q And when did you do that? Ô  h)Q 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   R 0*0*0*°° Ô 42 1 A Shortly after the form came out 2 which showed that a request was made for 3 Billy Dale's file and my name was on the 4 form, and I had never seen this form before 5 and never known my name was being used on it 6 before. So I got a copy of it -- it became 7 public, and I faxed it to Kennedy, and I 8 said, you know, what's this all about? 9 What's this form all about? 10 And then I had a conversation with 11 Kennedy. He told me what the form was. The 12 form was a form that was used by the Office 13 of Personnel Security to request FBI files 14 when we wanted FBI files with respect to 15 potential nominees or appointees in The White 16 House. 17 Q Who called who? Did you call 18 Kennedy or did he call you? 19 A I think I called him first when 20 this thing came out and I saw the form. 21 Q And he faxed you that form? 22 A He didn't fax me that form. I Ô  h)S 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   T 0*0*0*°° Ô 43 1 obtained a copy of the form -- I believe this 2 to be correct. I obtained a copy of the form 3 and I faxed it to him, and then I talked to 4 him after he got to say, you know, what's 5 this form all about? We use this kind of 6 form and why are we requesting, you know, 7 Billy Dale's name, Billy Dale's file, why was 8 the office requesting Billy Dale's file. 9 And he explained that the form was 10 a form that was used to request FBI files, 11 that my name had been typed on it or printed 12 on it as a matter of form, as had prior 13 administrations done the same thing, and all 14 they were doing was doing what prior 15 administrations did. And he didn't know why 16 Billy Dale's file, you know, was requested. 17 Now we know why, because they were working 18 off an erroneous Secret Service list, but 19 that's a separate issue. 20 Q How did you get a copy of the form? 21 A I don't remember. It became -- 22 Representative Clinger released it or he had Ô  h)U 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   V 0*0*0*°° Ô 44 1 a press conference and gave it to the press 2 and it became part of the public record and I 3 obtained a copy presumably by calling 4 Washington and having the copy sent to me. 5 Q Did you get any other documents 6 after you left The White House about Filegate 7 from any source? 8 A I don't know. Did I personally get 9 any other documents? No. Obviously, in 10 comparing the testimony -- I testified about 11 Filegate before the House, and in preparing 12 for that testimony my lawyers may have 13 obtained documents from the public record 14 with respect to this matter. 15 Q Since you left The White House, who 16 have you had contact with at The White House 17 where you discussed Filegate? You just 18 mentioned Kennedy. 19 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 20 the question. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall having 22 contact with anybody at The White House with Ô  h)W 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   X 0*0*0*°° Ô 45 1 respect to Filegate after I left The White 2 House. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Nobody? 5 A I personally, nobody. My lawyers 6 may have been in touch with The White House 7 Counsel's Office in preparing for my 8 testimony. Obviously, we were trying to find 9 out as many facts as we could so I would be 10 fully prepared to testify before the House 11 committee, but I don't recall any 12 conversations about Filegate with anybody in 13 The White House. 14 Q When you had the conversation with 15 Kennedy, had he already left The White House? 16 A By Filegate we're talking about 17 this allegation I defined before, what I 18 consider that false allegation. I didn't 19 discuss that false allegation with anybody at 20 The White House. 21 Q I understand that you claim the 22 allegation's a phantom allegation. Ô  h)Y 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   Z 0*0*0*°° Ô 46 1 A It's a false allegation. 2 Q I'm not interested, for purposes of 3 this question, what you think about that 4 allegation, but did you discuss it with 5 anybody at The White House? 6 A I understand your question. I 7 don't recall discussing the allegation with 8 anybody at The White House. 9 Q Where was Kennedy when you had the 10 discussion with him? 11 A Oh, he was not in The White House 12 at that time. 13 Q He was back at the Rose Law Firm? 14 A He was in Arkansas. 15 Q Did you discuss the allegation with 16 anybody at the Rose Law Firm? 17 A No. 18 MR. MAZUR: Other than Kennedy? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Other than Kennedy. You knew other 21 people at the Rose Law Firm, didn't you? 22 A I've met other people at the Rose Ô  h)[ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   \ 0*0*0*°° Ô 47 1 Law Firm but I really don't know them. 2 Q Who have you met? 3 A I don't remember their names. I 4 met Clark, I think his name is, the -- he was 5 the managing partner or is the managing 6 partner. I've been in Arkansas on a number 7 of occasions, and I've met people at social 8 events from the Rose Law Firm. 9 Q During the time that you were White 10 House counsel, who from the Rose Law Firm 11 contacted that office from time to time? 12 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Or ever? 15 A No one that I recall from the Rose 16 Law Firm contacted me during that time. 17 Obviously, I was working with people who 18 worked previously for the Rose Law Firm, 19 Kennedy, Foster, but I wasn't in contact with 20 the Rose Law Firm during that time. 21 Presumably, Kennedy and Foster may have been 22 in contact with former colleagues from time Ô  h)] 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ^ 0*0*0*°° Ô 48 1 to time but I don't know. 2 Q What colleagues were they in 3 contact with? Surely you must know one. 4 A No. I'm speculating they spoke to 5 their former -- I spoke to my former 6 partners, so I'm sure they spoke to their 7 former partners. They were friends with 8 their former partners. I'm sure they were in 9 contact. I don't know who they were in 10 contact with. 11 Q Are your present partners giving 12 you free legal representation in this case? 13 A My present partners are not 14 charging me for legal representation, that's 15 correct. 16 Q Do you know if anybody's paying 17 those legal fees? 18 A If anybody's paying my legal fees? 19 No, no one's paying my legal fees, but my 20 firm is representing me pro bono. 21 Q Now, who was Kennedy most friendly 22 with at the Rose Law Firm after he came to Ô  h)_ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ` 0*0*0*°° Ô 49 1 Washington? 2 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 3 THE WITNESS: After he came to 4 Washington? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Yes. 7 A I don't know. 8 Q Did you ever observe Kennedy with 9 any friends from Arkansas that came to visit 10 him in Washington? 11 A I may have but I have no memory at 12 this time. It's possible that people came to 13 visit him just as people came to visit me 14 from New York from time to time. 15 Q Did he have friends in Washington, 16 Kennedy, people that he'd go out to dinner 17 with or have a drink with? 18 A Sure. 19 Q Who were some of those people? 20 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 21 THE WITNESS: Did Kennedy have 22 friends in Washington? I tell you we were Ô  h)a 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   b 0*0*0*°° Ô 50 1 working all the time, so there was not a lot 2 of time to go out to dinner with friends. I 3 don't know. I mean, I presume -- you know, 4 Kennedy had worked in Washington previously. 5 He'd worked for Senator McClellan in the 6 '70s. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Where did Kennedy live when he 9 worked in Washington? 10 A I don't know the address where he 11 lived. I think he rented a small house. He 12 had a wife and a couple children at the time. 13 Q Did he get divorced during that 14 period in Washington? 15 A I don't know if he was divorced 16 during the period in Washington, but toward 17 the end of the period or shortly thereafter 18 he did split from his wife, separate from his 19 wife, divorce his wife. 20 Q Did he ever tell you that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Was it an amicable arrangement? Ô  h)c 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   d 0*0*0*°° Ô 51 1 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 2 Intrusiveness. 3 MR. MAZUR: Objection relevancy. 4 THE WITNESS: It was not amicable. 5 Should I answer the question? 6 MR. MAZUR: Yes. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, did you ever discuss Filegate 9 with George Stephanopoulos after you left The 10 White House? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you had any discussions with 13 Stephanopoulos since you've left The White 14 House? 15 A Not many. I've met him once or 16 twice at social occasions, big party or 17 something like that. 18 Q Did you go to his recent book 19 signing? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever discuss any White 22 House controversy with him? I'll call them Ô  h)e 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   f 0*0*0*°° Ô 52 1 controversies like CNN does to be amicable 2 here today. Any controversies? 3 MR. MAZUR: Discussions with 4 Stephanopoulos? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 6 THE WITNESS: I think I once ran 7 into Stephanopoulos at a restaurant in 8 Washington when I was in Washington on a 9 visit, and he sort of just shook hands and 10 sort of kidded me. It was right after Blood 11 Sport came out and he had something about 12 Blood Sport. He said, boy, you really -- you 13 really gave it to me or something like that 14 in Blood Sport. 15 It was -- I think he was alluding 16 to the battle we had which is reported in 17 Blood Sport as to whether an independent 18 counsel should be sought by the 19 administration, and I was vehemently opposed, 20 claiming it would not be a good idea. And he 21 was supportive of doing it, and that debate 22 between the two of us was described in Blood Ô  h)g 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   h 0*0*0*°° Ô 53 1 Sport. 2 Q Did you ever discuss anything about 3 Filegate with -- 4 A No, I never did. 5 Q With Stephanopoulos? 6 MR. MAZUR: Let him finish the 7 question. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You were aware when Stephanopoulos 10 worked in The White House that he was at one 11 time the director of communications? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Correct? Then he was moved to, 14 what was it, special advisor to the 15 President? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And as part of his duties and 18 responsibilities, it was to find out what was 19 going on at The White House so he could 20 communicate with the press. Some people have 21 called that spinning, but that was part of 22 his duties, correct? Ô  h)i 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   j 0*0*0*°° Ô 54 1 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 2 THE WITNESS: Stephanopoulos' 3 duties was to act as a senior advisor to the 4 President after he stepped down -- or stepped 5 up after he was director of communications. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You are aware, however, that was 8 part of his duties, to find out what went on 9 so he knew how to deal with it with the 10 media? 11 A When he was director of 12 communications, that certainly was part of 13 his duties, to know what was going on so he 14 could deal with the media, and to some extent 15 I guess it's fair to say that that continued 16 after he became a senior advisor to the 17 President. 18 Q And you're aware that he took part 19 in gathering information about the Travelgate 20 controversy? 21 A That was while he was director of 22 communications. Ô  h)k 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   l 0*0*0*°° Ô 55 1 Q And you are aware that the 2 Travelgate controversy is what spawned the 3 Filegate controversy, the discovery of the 4 Dale file at The White House, correct? 5 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 6 the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't think the 8 Travelgate spawned the Filegate controversy. 9 The Travelgate controversy was one 10 controversy which is another phantom 11 allegation, false, and the Filegate 12 controversy is a similarly false and phantom 13 allegation, but, you know, that's life. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Is it your position that every 16 Clinton controversy is phantom? 17 A No. 18 Q Is there one that you consider to 19 be legitimate? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Which one's that? 22 A Lewinsky. Ô  h)m 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   n 0*0*0*°° Ô 56 1 Q Any one other than that? 2 A No, none other than that. 3 Q Why did you consider Lewinsky to be 4 legitimate? 5 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 6 THE WITNESS: Because obviously the 7 president has acknowledged inappropriate 8 conduct with a young woman at The White 9 House, and I think legitimate arguments have 10 been made with respect to the nature of his 11 testimony and public statements with respect 12 to that conduct after the conduct took place. 13 So I think that's a legitimate controversy. 14 I don't think that was a phantom controversy. 15 I think people had a right to be very 16 critical of the President with respect to his 17 conduct in that matter. I mean, the 18 President himself if he was sitting here 19 would acknowledge that. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And the reason you're taking the 22 position that's legitimate is because the Ô  h)o 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   p 0*0*0*°° Ô 57 1 President himself has admitted to misconduct? 2 A No, that's not the reason I'm 3 taking it. Even if the President hadn't 4 admitted it, if he did it and wasn't totally 5 candid about it, it would be legitimate 6 regardless of whether he admitted. That's 7 not the reason I'm taking that position. I'm 8 taking that position because that was a real, 9 true controversy. The others are phantoms. 10 Q In the Travelgate controversy, it 11 was the discovery of FBI material concerning 12 Billy Dale in The White House by the Clinger 13 committee which gave rise to this controversy 14 we know as Filegate? 15 A No, the Clinger committee 16 discovered that, as a result of investigating 17 the Travelgate issue, discovered that files 18 were erroneously requested from the FBI with 19 respect to a number of people, including 20 Billy Dale, yes. That's how the Filegate 21 controversy emerged. 22 It emerged as a result of the Ô  h)q 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   r 0*0*0*°° Ô 58 1 Clinger investigation of the Travelgate 2 controversy, but it really had nothing to do 3 with the Travelgate controversy. It's a 4 whole separate series of an administrative 5 screw-up caused primarily, you know, by the 6 use of an erroneous Secret Service list. 7 Q So Travelgate was an erroneous 8 screw-up, correct? 9 A Travelgate was not -- 10 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 THE WITNESS: Travelgate was not an 13 erroneous screw-up. Travelgate was a 14 situation in which a number of people in the 15 Travel Office were dismissed as a result of a 16 report conducted or a quick audit conducted 17 by independent public accountants which found 18 irregularities in the Travel Office, and The 19 White House determined as a result of that to 20 dismiss these people who were acting either 21 in an improper or an incompetent fashion. 22 That's Travelgate. Ô  h)s 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   t 0*0*0*°° Ô 59 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you play any role in the facts 3 involved in Travelgate? 4 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: No. Only after the 7 employees were dismissed, as a result of the 8 Peat, Marwick report, the independent 9 accountant I was referring to before, and it 10 became a big public controversy. Then did I 11 become somewhat involved in that matter, but 12 the matter was handled in our office prior to 13 that by Vince Foster and Bill Kennedy. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you know that the Travel Office 16 employees were going to be dismissed before 17 they were dismissed? 18 A Shortly before they were dismissed, 19 I knew they were going to be dismissed right 20 before because Foster told me that The White 21 House had made a determination as a result of 22 the Peat, Marwick report to dismiss those Ô  h)u 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   v 0*0*0*°° Ô 60 1 employees. And I asked, you know, what was 2 the basis of the dismissal, and he said well, 3 we had sent in Peat, Marwick and they 4 examined the way the office was being run in 5 an incompetent fashion and The White House 6 has determined to dismiss them. That's what 7 I knew about the dismissal. 8 Q You asked to see a copy of that 9 report? 10 A No, I don't think I saw a copy of 11 that report or I saw a copy of that right 12 shortly thereafter. When it became a 13 controversy I certainly read the report. 14 Q During the period leading up to the 15 dismissal of the Travel Office employees, you 16 did discuss this issue with Hillary Clinton? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 22 played a role in the dismissal of the Travel Ô  h)w 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   x 0*0*0*°° Ô 61 1 Office employees? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 MS. GILES: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of 6 that. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You're not aware of any aspect of 9 any role that she played in dismissal of the 10 Travel Office employees? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: Look, I'm aware, you 13 know, as a result of a lot of hearings I am 14 aware that she had conversations with respect 15 to the Travel Office with various people in 16 The White House, including David Watkins, 17 including members of the chief of staff's 18 office, including people in my office, Vince 19 Foster. So I'm aware she was aware that 20 there was an independent audit being done of 21 the Travel Office and that that audit found 22 irregularities which warranted the dismissal Ô  h)y 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   z 0*0*0*°° Ô 62 1 of these people. So to that extent I'm 2 aware, you know, that she was aware of that 3 fact. 4 MS. GILES: Object to further 5 questions on the Travel Office matter. I 6 would hope you would limit your questions to 7 the category that the judge has carved out 8 and I object to the rest as beyond the scope 9 of the judge's order. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that the Travel 12 Office staff, the decision was made to 13 dismiss them before the Peat, Marwick report 14 was completed? 15 A No, there was no decision to 16 dismiss them before the Peat, Marwick report 17 was completed. 18 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 19 had had with your office either by phone or 20 in person or written communications 21 concerning the Travel Office before those 22 employees were dismissed? Ô  h){ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   | 0*0*0*°° Ô 63 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: There may have been 3 communications by Hillary Clinton with 4 members of my office and with Mr. Foster with 5 respect to the Travel Office employees prior 6 to the completion of the audit. But I 7 believe and I believe it on the basis of my 8 discussions with Foster that no decision had 9 been made at any time to dismiss anybody from 10 the Travel Office until we had an independent 11 audit of that office conducted by people we 12 could trust such as Peat, Marwick or people 13 we could trust because of their distinction 14 and their independence and their competence 15 and their skill. And no decision had been 16 made to dismiss anybody from the Travel 17 Office until we had the results of that 18 report. 19 When that report came in, it showed 20 that the office was being run in an irregular 21 and incompetent fashion, and I say that 22 charitably, and then a decision was made to Ô  h)} 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ~ 0*0*0*°° Ô 64 1 dismiss the people in the Travel Office, and 2 that's why the Travel Office is also a 3 phantom scandal. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q It's your position that the 6 dismissal of the employees of the Travel 7 Office was fully justified by The White 8 House? 9 A Yes, it was fully justified. 10 Q And they deserved what they got? 11 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I think The White 14 House could have handled it better. I think 15 The White House could have handled it 16 gentler. I think The White House -- in 17 retrospect, it wasn't necessary that all of 18 them be dismissed at once at that point, but 19 I think fundamentally the action of The White 20 House in dismissing these people was 21 warranted and was justified and was proper. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   € 0*0*0*°° Ô 65 1 Q And it's your position that Billy 2 Dale deserved to be indicted? 3 A No, I don't know that. I don't 4 know that. I know he was indicted by the 5 Justice Department after they conducted their 6 own independent investigation. I don't know 7 if he deserved to be indicted or didn't 8 deserve to be indicted. I had heard or I had 9 read after the fact, after the indictment, 10 that he had put money in his personal -- 11 Travel Office money in his personal checking 12 account, perhaps claiming he was keeping it 13 there for safeguarding and that may have led 14 the Justice Department to indict him. But 15 this is just my reading, but I don't know if 16 the Justice Department was justified in 17 indicting him or not. 18 Q During the time you worked at The 19 White House Counsel's Office you were aware 20 that the Clintons hadn't reported income on 21 their personal income tax returns, correct? 22 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ‚ 0*0*0*°° Ô 66 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of 4 that. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have you been aware of that since 7 then? 8 A No, I'm not aware of that. 9 Q If that's the case, should they 10 have been indicted? 11 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I know of nothing the 13 Clintons have done which would justify the 14 Clintons being indicted for anything. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Now, did you ever see a memorandum 17 written by Hillary Clinton that said we want 18 those people out, we want our people in, 19 anything to that effect? 20 A No, I never saw such a memo. 21 Q Are you aware of other people 22 having seen such a memorandum? Ô  h)ƒ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   „ 0*0*0*°° Ô 67 1 A Well, only by reading -- no, I'm 2 not aware of Hillary Clinton ever writing 3 such a memorandum or other people receiving 4 such a memorandum. Now, I'm aware because of 5 hearing of David Watkins, I think, writing a 6 memorandum to the file or memorandum to the 7 chief of staff which described conversations 8 he had with Hillary Clinton with respect to 9 this matter. I'm aware of that. I don't 10 know if that's accurate or not accurate 11 because I wasn't privy to those 12 conversations. 13 Q Have you ever been questioned about 14 Travelgate by Independent Counsel Starr? 15 A I've been questioned by the 16 independent counsel about a number of 17 subjects, and that's the reason I'm 18 hesitating. I believe I was. I'm almost 19 certain I was. 20 MR. MAZUR: He asked you by Starr 21 himself. 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, by -- Ô  h)… 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   † 0*0*0*°° Ô 68 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Well, let's start with Starr 3 himself. 4 A Oh, no, I never met with Starr with 5 respect to any of these matters. 6 Q Have you ever seen him in person? 7 A Yes. I know Starr. I've seen him 8 in person. 9 Q But you never talked to him about 10 any of the Clinton controversies in person? 11 A I've never seen him in connection 12 with his official functions as the 13 independent counsel. 14 Q Were you ever questioned by the 15 Independent Counsel concerning Filegate? 16 A By his office, not by Starr. Yes, 17 I was questioned by the Independent Counsel's 18 office concerning Filegate. 19 Q Did you appear in front of a grand 20 jury? 21 MR. MAZUR: With respect to 22 Filegate? Ô  h)‡ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ˆ 0*0*0*°° Ô 69 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yes. 3 A Not with respect to Filegate. 4 Q This was an informal interview? 5 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 6 the question. 7 THE WITNESS: This was a lengthy 8 interview, took a number of hours and a 9 number of senior people from Starr's staff 10 who interviewed me at length with respect to 11 the so-called Filegate matter. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Who participated in that? 14 A From the staff? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I think -- you would know. I think 17 Jackie Bennett was there. I remember him 18 sitting there. 19 Q Was that in Washington or New York? 20 A It was in Washington. I remember 21 Jackie Bennett being there and the other 22 staff members escape -- I knew at the time Ô  h)‰ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   Š 0*0*0*°° Ô 70 1 but I don't know now. 2 Q It was an informal interview? 3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Informal only in the 6 sense that it wasn't transcribed like we're 7 transcribing this deposition. They took 8 extensive notes and the interview went on for 9 a long time and it was an in-depth interview. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q It wasn't under oath, I take it? 12 A It wasn't under oath, but it was a 13 statement to a government agency -- a 14 government agent, so I had no illusions that 15 if I didn't tell the truth there could be 16 consequences as a result of that. 17 Q So you're aware of other people 18 having appeared before the grand jury on 19 Filegate, aren't you? 20 A Perhaps I read -- I didn't appear 21 before the grand jury on Filegate. Other 22 people may have or may not have. I don't Ô  h)‹ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   Œ 0*0*0*°° Ô 71 1 know. I just don't know. 2 Q So you think you got special 3 treatment because you're a fellow lawyer? 4 A No, I don't think I got special 5 treatment from under Starr's office. I've 6 testified before the grand jury on three or 7 four occasions. 8 Q Given the fact that you were head 9 of the office of White House counsel and 10 you're ultimately responsible for what went 11 on there, correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Didn't you find it peculiar that 14 they never put you under oath? 15 A No, because it wasn't necessary, 16 because they interviewed me for hours, 17 because we discussed every aspect of it, and 18 because the whole thing is nonsense. 19 Q And they told you that? The 20 Independent Counsel said the whole thing is 21 nonsense? 22 A No, they didn't tell me that. Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   Ž 0*0*0*°° Ô 72 1 That's my judgment. 2 Q Your judgment is they've come to 3 that conclusion? 4 A No, I don't know. I don't know 5 what conclusion they've come to. 6 Q Now, since you've left The White 7 House, have you ever discussed Filegate with 8 Harold Ickes? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you seen Harold Ickes since 11 you've left The White House? 12 A Not many times. Once in a while. 13 I ran into him in a restaurant, shake hands, 14 you know, and joke around. But I saw him 15 once when I was testifying actually before 16 the grand jury. He was coming in and I was 17 coming out, you know, and we joked about 18 that. But -- and we made a joke once at 19 another restaurant about, you know -- 20 Q You're aware when Harold Ickes left 21 The White House he made off with boxes of 22 documents, aren't you? Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   0*0*0*°° Ô 73 1 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I've read that, yes. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever ask him? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever ask him if any 7 documents concerning me, Bernie Nussbuam, 8 were there, let me know? 9 A Never did. 10 Q Did you ever discuss Travelgate 11 with Harold Ickes since you've left The White 12 House? 13 A No. 14 Q I take it you've had discussions 15 with James Carville since you've left The 16 White House? 17 A I don't think I've seen James since 18 I've left The White House. 19 Q That was by design? 20 A No, I'd love to see him. He's a 21 funny guy. 22 Q Did you ever see anybody else that Ô  h)‘ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ’ 0*0*0*°° Ô 74 1 you worked with at The White House or talked 2 to them since you've left? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who? 5 A I've seen the President. I've seen 6 the First Lady. I've seen Bruce Lindsey. 7 I've seen Cheryl Mills. I've seen -- 8 although he wasn't at The White House when I 9 was there, Chuck Ruff, Lloyd Cutler. I've 10 seen a number of people, you know. 11 Q Let's list them all. 12 A Those are the people I remember. 13 Q Who else? Have you seen Linda 14 Tripp? 15 A No, I've never seen Linda Tripp. 16 Q Talk to her? 17 A No, I haven't talked to Linda Tripp 18 since I left The White House. 19 Q Betsy Pond? 20 A I've seen Betsy Pond. Last year I 21 was trying a case down here before Judge 22 Sporkin -- in fact, you interrupted that Ô  h)“ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ” 0*0*0*°° Ô 75 1 case. You came in and you were arguing and I 2 had to sit and wait for your argument. 3 Q That was the case where the judge 4 said that there was bribery in the Chinagate 5 scandal? 6 A I don't know if he said that. I 7 think that's what you said. 8 Q That was Judge Sporkin? 9 A By the FEC, right. 10 Q When the FEC said we didn't have 11 jurisdiction to look into sale of seats on 12 and Judge Sporkin said you don't have 13 jurisdiction to look into bribery? 14 A I do remember that. 15 Q You found that troubling? 16 A I thought you argued it well, 17 frankly. 18 Q Thank you, we were happy to have 19 you. 20 A You gave us a break-in the trial. 21 I was here for two months. While I was here 22 for two months I saw Betsy. I don't think Ô  h)• 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   – 0*0*0*°° Ô 76 1 I've seen Deborah Gorham, although she once 2 contacted me with respect to asking me for a 3 recommendation or something. I said she 4 could use my name as a reference for a job. 5 Q Anybody else? 6 A Well, I've been back to The White 7 House, you know, once or twice, and when I 8 was there I would say hello to people. I 9 mean, the First Lady's chief -- 10 Q Melanie Verveer? 11 A Melanne. The First Lady's chief of 12 staff, I've seen her both inside The White 13 House and outside The White House. I know a 14 lot of people in The White House. I worked 15 there for other a year. 16 Q That's why I'm asking. 17 A And I've seen them in New York or 18 Washington or at The White House. 19 Q Maggie Williams? 20 A I've seen Maggie Williams not 21 often, actually. I think I ran into her when 22 we were testifying before one of the House or Ô  h)— 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ˜ 0*0*0*°° Ô 77 1 Senate committees. 2 Q Marcia Scott? 3 A I've seen Marcia Scott. I ran into 4 her in The White House when I was there on a 5 visit. 6 Q Sidney Blumenthal? 7 A I only met Blumenthal once when I 8 was on that trial. He was testifying before 9 the grand jury and I was in the courthouse 10 for two months, so I also ran into a lot of 11 people coming for the grand jury testimony, 12 and I was coming to try my antitrust case and 13 I had to deal with the press every day to 14 assure them I was not testifying before the 15 grand jury. 16 Q Paul Begala? 17 A I haven't seen Paul since I've left 18 The White House. 19 Q Susan Thomasson? 20 A Yes, she was not in The White 21 House. 22 Q Rahm Emanuel? Ô  h)™ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   š 0*0*0*°° Ô 78 1 A No, I don't think I've seen Rahm. 2 Well, I did, I think, once. Shortly after I 3 left The White House, I went to some function 4 in Washington. 5 Q Mike McCurry? 6 A I don't really know Mike very well. 7 I may have run into him when I was at The 8 White House and shook his hand or something. 9 Q Ann Lewis? 10 A No, I don't remember seeing Ann 11 Lewis. 12 Q Evelyn Lieberman? 13 A I don't think I've seen Evelyn 14 Lieberman since he was in The White House. 15 Q Have you had any communication with 16 Mrs. Clinton or representatives of 17 Mrs. Clinton concerning her candidacy for the 18 Senate in New York? 19 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 20 THE WITNESS: I was with 21 Mrs. Clinton -- I saw her last week or the 22 week before at a political dinner in New Ô  h)› 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   œ 0*0*0*°° Ô 79 1 York, and we chatted briefly. We didn't chat 2 about her candidacy for the Senate. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You're aware that Mrs. Clinton's a 5 Defendant in this case? 6 A Yes, I'm aware of that. 7 Q And when you had these 8 conversations with Mrs. Clinton in the last 9 several years since you've left you've 10 discussed Filegate with her? 11 A No, we never discussed the Filegate 12 allegation. 13 Q Given the fact she's a Defendant in 14 this case have you ever heard any discussion 15 that this was going to be a problem for her 16 if she runs for the Senate? 17 A No, I never heard such a 18 discussion. 19 Q Is it your opinion it will be a 20 problem for her? 21 A No, I don't think it will be a 22 problem at all. Ô  h) 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ž 0*0*0*°° Ô 80 1 Q Why not? 2 A Because there's nothing to it. 3 Q Did you ever discuss Filegate with 4 President Clinton? 5 A No. No. 6 Q Did you ever discuss Travelgate 7 with President Clinton? 8 MS. GILES: I'm going to object to 9 the witness discussing the substance of 10 conversations with the President other than I 11 will allow him to identify very general 12 subject matter of the conversations. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: On a core issue 14 you're going to object to that? 15 MS. GILES: Filegate is not a core 16 issue. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: You're just objecting 18 on Travelgate? 19 MS. GILES: No. I'm objecting on 20 conversations with the President. 21 THE WITNESS: I never discussed the 22 so-called Filegate issue with the President. Ô  h)Ÿ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ     0*0*0*°° Ô 81 1 I did discuss the Travel Office issue, 2 so-called Travelgate -- everything's a gate, 3 but okay I discussed the Travel Office issue 4 with the President when I was in The White 5 House. That happened when I was in The White 6 House, and I discussed it with him when I was 7 in The White House. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You discussed the acquisition of 10 FBI materials on Billy Dale and the other 11 Travel Office employees? 12 A No, I never discussed that with 13 him. 14 Q You discuss that with anyone when 15 you were at The White House? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you have any discussions with 18 Mrs. Clinton about the acquisition of FBI 19 materials concerning the Travel Office? 20 A No. 21 Q Have you discussed any of the 22 so-called Clinton controversy, including Ô  h)¡ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ¢ 0*0*0*°° Ô 82 1 Filegate and Travelgate, with Harold Ickes 2 since you've left The White House? 3 A No, I have not. 4 Q Have you had any discussions of 5 these subjects with Bruce Lindsey? 6 MR. MAZUR: Which subjects? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Travelgate and Filegate. 9 A Well, I had discussions with Bruce 10 Lindsey about the Travel Office issue when I 11 was in The White House. He was in The White 12 House, I was in The White House, and I've 13 discussed that with him. And -- 14 Q Did you discuss the issue of the 15 acquisition of Dale's file with Lindsey? 16 A I didn't know Dale's file was 17 acquired when I was in The White House, so I 18 didn't discuss that issue with him when I was 19 in The White House. 20 Q Have you discussed that issue with 21 him since? 22 A I've discussed the file Ô  h)£ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ¤ 0*0*0*°° Ô 83 1 controversy, the FBI file controversy -- I 2 mean, that's how I'll characterize it, the 3 FBI controversy. I'll adopt your suggestion. 4 Q I'm trying to be agreeable. 5 A Actually, so am I. I've discussed 6 that with Lindsey since I left The White 7 House because it emerged after I left The 8 White House, and I've seen Lindsey from time 9 to time since I've left The White House, and 10 I have discussed that issue with him. 11 Q And what did you discuss with 12 Lindsey? 13 A Just what I told you today, that 14 this is a sad thing, a great tragedy that 15 nothing happened, nothing wrong was done. 16 There was a bureaucratic screw-up, an 17 erroneous list was given to somebody -- I'm 18 telling you what I discussed. You want to 19 hear it, don't you? 20 Q All right, let's hear it. 21 A An erroneous list was handed to a 22 detailee who requested files, you know, Ô  h)¥ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ¦ 0*0*0*°° Ô 84 1 foolishly, unwittingly, until a 25-year-old 2 intern came in and realized that this can't 3 be a current list and stopped the acquisition 4 of files, and this has turned into -- this 5 bureaucratic screw-up has turned into 6 Filegate, has turned into this FBI file 7 controversy, and it's -- you know, it's a 8 real tragedy that this happened and that the 9 press and that other people, litigants and 10 other people, just simply refuse to 11 understand that some lower level people made 12 a mistake, both in our office and in the 13 Secret Service, perhaps, and yet this has 14 generated enormous controversy, congressional 15 hearings, and litigation. 16 Q Are you recounting everything you 17 said to Lindsey or giving us a speech? 18 MR. MAZUR: You asked him about 19 what he discussed with Lindsey. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: That's why I'm 21 asking. 22 THE WITNESS: Believe me, what I Ô  h)§ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ¨ 0*0*0*°° Ô 85 1 just said to you I said to Lindsey. In fact, 2 the way I'm saying it to you I'm limiting it 3 because I know you don't want to hear it at 4 length. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q And you said to Lindsey did you 7 ever find out more detail about what happened 8 in Filegate? 9 A The White House -- yes, and Lindsey 10 said -- the description I just gave you is 11 what happened. 12 Q And who did that investigation? 13 Lindsey told you? 14 A No, he didn't tell me. I presume 15 -- you know, when Filegate broke and we had 16 congressional hearings, then obviously The 17 White House Counsel's Office, particularly, I 18 presume, did look into the facts because we 19 had to prepare ourselves for these hearings 20 and this was what was ultimately determined. 21 Q Who in The White House counsel did 22 that? Ô  h)© 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ª 0*0*0*°° Ô 86 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Did you ever say to anybody since 3 you've left The White House, how did we ever 4 hire that idiot Craig Livingstone, anything 5 to that effect? 6 A No. 7 Q You can take the word "idiot" out. 8 Why did we hire somebody who wasn't 9 qualified? 10 A No, I don't think it's fair to say 11 Craig Livingstone wasn't qualified. Craig 12 Livingstone is -- you know, he's not a 13 perfect human being, just like you're not and 14 I'm not, but I think Craig Livingstone 15 actually was qualified for that position. He 16 was an intelligent, hard-working, sincere 17 person. If he bragged to people from time to 18 time, which he may have done, because I've 19 read about it, I've never heard it. That's 20 unfortunate but everybody does silly things 21 from time to time, but I don't think Craig 22 Livingstone did anything seriously wrong with Ô  h)« 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ¬ 0*0*0*°° Ô 87 1 respect to anything that I know of. 2 Q What made him qualified, in your 3 opinion? 4 A It was a -- you know, he was an 5 intelligent person. He had worked on the 6 inauguration. He had worked on the campaign. 7 He had gotten good reviews from people who 8 apparently work with him. That's what 9 Kennedy and Foster told me when they made the 10 decision that he should be hired, and I saw 11 nothing during my service as White House 12 counsel that contradicted that and I know of 13 nothing since that contradicts that. 14 Q What did you do to determine he was 15 intelligent before he was hired? 16 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: I personally did not 19 do anything. I left Foster and -- he was 20 working for Kennedy, and Kennedy and Foster 21 made the determination that he should remain 22 in his position as head of Office of Ô  h)­ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ® 0*0*0*°° Ô 88 1 Personnel Security. They told me about it in 2 advance of finally making the decision, and I 3 approved their decision. But basically they 4 made that decision and told me about it. 5 Obviously, I could have overruled it if I 6 wanted to. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And you asked to see his employment 9 applications and recommendations and the 10 whole nine yards about his application to be 11 employed there? 12 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I left that -- I did 15 not do that. I left that to Foster and 16 Kennedy. 17 MR. MAZUR: When you've got a new 18 subject we'd like a short break. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me? 20 MR. MAZUR: When you've got a new 21 subject, we'd like a short break. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: Ô  h)¯ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ° 0*0*0*°° Ô 89 1 Q Did you ask Foster and Kennedy to 2 explain to you how they had determined he was 3 intelligent? 4 A Foster and Kennedy when they told 5 me that they were going to keep Livingstone 6 on in that position said that, you know, 7 they'd reviewed his work for the past few 8 weeks. I sort of vaguely remember this. 9 This is -- but I do remember a conversation 10 where they said, you know, we're going to 11 keep Craig Livingstone on. You know, he's a 12 bright guy. He's worked hard. He's gotten 13 good recommendations, and we think we should 14 -- you know, we're satisfied he can stay on 15 and report to Kennedy and I said fine. That 16 was the gist of the conversation. 17 Q But you never asked to see what was 18 behind those conclusions? 19 A No, I never asked to see what was 20 behind those conclusions. I had enormous 21 trust and confidence in Foster and Kennedy, 22 enormous trust and confidence which I have to Ô  h)± 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ² 0*0*0*°° Ô 90 1 this day. 2 Q You were aware of the importance of 3 the position that Mr. Livingstone was being 4 hired for? 5 A Yes, I knew it was an important 6 position but it was basically an 7 administrative position. It was not a 8 policy-making decision. It didn't require, 9 you know, great policy-making skills. It 10 required administrative skills. It required, 11 you know, managing a paper flow, and Foster 12 and Kennedy were confident that Livingstone 13 had such skills to do that. 14 Q Did Foster and Kennedy ever advise 15 you as to whether Livingstone had had 16 problems in his past? 17 A I don't recall ever being advised 18 that he's had problems in his past. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe we should go on 20 the confidential record here. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: My gosh, 22 Mr. Klayman, we were just thinking alike. Ô  h)³ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ´ 0*0*0*°° Ô 91 1 It's a scary thought. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: It is scary, more for 3 me than for you. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: No. No. I take 5 issue with that. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go on the 7 confidential record here. 8 MR. MAZUR: He doesn't know what a 9 confident record is for purposes of this 10 proceeding, so just give me a minute. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You're not giving him 12 information, are you, Mr. Mazur? 13 MR. MAZUR: I'm telling him what 14 the procedure is that you are following here. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's just flip a 16 tape here quickly, and if we go back on the 17 confidential record later, we can put it on 18 the same tape. 19 MR. MAZUR: I'm sorry. Is this on 20 a confidential record now or not? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: It will be as soon as 22 we switch the tape. Ô  h)µ 0*0*0*°° ÔŒÔ   ¶ 0*0*0*°° Ô 92 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 2 video record at 11:20. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Œ™ 102 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 2 video record at 11:32. 3 (Discussion off the record) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 5 public record at 11:33. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Now, we're going to get a little 8 bit into your background later, Mr. Nussbaum, 9 but at the time you took the job as White 10 House counsel you were experienced in the 11 ways of Washington, D.C., to put it 12 generally? 13 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You had been a counsel on the 18 Watergate committee? 19 A Yes. I was just about to say that. 20 I had been a counsel on the Watergate 21 committee. I'd lived in Washington for 22 almost a year during that time, but I would 103 1 not consider myself experienced in the ways 2 of Washington in the early '90s. 3 Q And in the course of your having 4 been a lawyer, a litigator for many years, 5 you had had cases that involved matters that 6 took you to Washington, D.C.? 7 A Absolutely, yes. 8 Q What is your specialty in terms of 9 litigation? 10 A My specialty is, in the sense that 11 I have a specialty, it's complex corporate 12 litigation, occasionally, in the past, not 13 recently, white collar criminal type of 14 litigation. My specialty is tough cases. 15 Q And how many years had you been 16 practicing law at the time that you took the 17 job as White House counsel? 18 A I'd been practicing law for 30 19 years the time I took the job as White House 20 counsel. 21 Q And during that time you had had 22 matters where you had to deal with Congress? 104 1 A On rare occasions, actually. 2 Q And you had matters where you had 3 to deal with government regulatory agencies, 4 federal regulatory agencies? 5 A Yes. Not as rare but -- I'm not a 6 Washington lawyer. I mean, I don't deal with 7 regulatory agencies on a regular basis, 8 although I deal with the SEC. I guess it's 9 part of my securities litigation practice. I 10 have done a lot of securities litigation, so 11 I've dealt with that regulatory agency, yes. 12 Q And when you worked on the 13 Watergate committee you went through a 14 security clearance procedure where the FBI 15 checked you out? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you had a general understanding 18 as to why persons employed by the federal 19 government have security clearances done by 20 the FBI? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you knew the procedures? 105 1 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form. 2 THE WITNESS: Generally, yes, but 3 on a sort of macro level. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q And you've had matters during your 6 30 years where you had to deal with the FBI? 7 A Yes. Well, I was a prosecutor. 8 Dealt with FBI lots of times. 9 Q And it was your understanding that 10 these security checks were very important to 11 protect the government? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Protect the American people? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And to protect the individuals that 16 worked for the government? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q So when you took the job as White 19 House, recognizing that The White House 20 Office of Personnel Security fell under your 21 command, you took very seriously who you were 22 going to hire to head up that office, 106 1 correct? 2 A Absolutely. 3 Q And you were aware that there were 4 many people available that actually had 5 experience in doing background security 6 checks and reviewing personnel files 7 concerning those background security checks, 8 correct? 9 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 10 the question. 11 THE WITNESS: The person in charge 12 of reviewing FBI files, background checks, 13 which were very important, just as in my mind 14 was not Craig Livingstone. Craig Livingstone 15 was an administrator, to make sure the paper 16 flowed. The person I appointed to that job, 17 who I carefully considered, is an appointment 18 I am very proud of at the time I made it and 19 just as proud of it today, and that person is 20 a superb lawyer, a man of great judgment and 21 honesty and integrity and wisdom, and that 22 person's name is Bill Kennedy. That's the 107 1 person I appointed to perform that very 2 sensitive job, which I agree with you is a 3 sensitive and an important job. 4 Craig Livingstone, whose 5 appointment I knew as the head of personnel 6 security, was merely the person whose office 7 obtained, facilitated the paper, obtained the 8 paper necessary for Kennedy then and some 9 people under Kennedy to make the sensitive 10 decisions as to how do we react to 11 information contained in FBI reports with 12 respect to potential appointees. 13 Q You knew Kennedy before you 14 appointed him? 15 A I did not know Kennedy before I 16 appointed him, but I knew Foster for a number 17 of months before I appointed Kennedy. I 18 discussed Kennedy at length with Foster, and 19 Foster gave me, you know, a detailed 20 description of Kennedy and Kennedy's 21 abilities, and I met with Kennedy and I was 22 immediately taken with Kennedy. And Kennedy 108 1 performed that job superbly. 2 Q You only knew Foster for a few 3 months, though? 4 A I knew Foster for a few months, 5 that's correct. 6 Q And you had faith in Foster because 7 Hillary Clinton had told you this is somebody 8 you could trust? 9 A Hillary Clinton certainly told me 10 this is somebody I could trust, as did 11 President Clinton told me he was somebody I 12 could trust. Foster and I started working 13 together on a daily basis shortly after the 14 election, late November, early December, 15 maybe a little later than that, maybe late 16 December. But we got to know each other 17 fairly well. We clicked. He was a superb 18 human being, superb lawyer, a soul of honesty 19 and integrity. I saw that quickly. 20 We worked together. His judgment 21 was excellent. And consequently when he 22 recommended Kennedy and described him at 109 1 length as to why we should put him in that 2 position and then I met with Kennedy, I made 3 a decision to put him in the position, and 4 I've never regretted that decision. 5 Q Did you ask for a background check 6 on Kennedy before you made that decision? 7 A No, I didn't ask for a background 8 check on Kennedy before I made the decision, 9 but Kennedy, like everybody else, including 10 myself, had to have a background check, you 11 know, ultimately by the FBI. 12 Q Did you ever ask to see that 13 background check before you put him in the 14 position? 15 A Not before I put him in the 16 position, no. I may have seen it ultimately. 17 I have a recollection of Foster asking me to 18 either review or to take a look at Kennedy's 19 background check. 20 Q At some point in time, you learned 21 that Kennedy had tax problems, correct? 22 A No, I didn't learn that Kennedy had 110 1 tax problems at the time, you know, we hired 2 him. If you're referring to this thing that 3 came out later that there was failure to pay 4 the so-called nanny tax of $700 or something 5 like that, I didn't learn about till later 6 on. 7 Q And when you learned about that you 8 dismissed Kennedy? 9 A No, I didn't dismiss Kennedy. 10 Q Was there any discussion about 11 Kennedy leaving while you were there? 12 A No. 13 Q Was there any discussion about what 14 to do about that nanny tax problem? 15 A That nanny tax problem I think came 16 up after I left. I mean, I know about it and 17 I read about it, but it came up after I left, 18 and I was not involved in any -- when I was 19 there, Kennedy was still -- 20 Q Were you aware that he tried to 21 hide that problem by using his wife's maiden 22 name? 111 1 A No, I'm not aware he tried to hide 2 that problem. 3 Q When you were aware of that? 4 A I've never been made aware of that. 5 Q If you had learned that that was 6 true before you made the decision to put him 7 in the job in terms of reviewing security 8 files, would you have done it? 9 A It's not true. I don't believe 10 it's true. 11 Q Well, suppose it was. 12 A If I learned that Kennedy had 13 murdered somebody before I appointed, I would 14 not have appointed him to the job. 15 Q I didn't ask you about murder. 16 We'll get to that later. 17 A If I learned he deliberately, you 18 know, tried to evade the payment of taxes 19 knowingly and deliberately, no, I would not 20 have appointed him to that position. I don't 21 believe Kennedy ever did such a thing. 22 Q But if he did and you picked that 112 1 up reviewing his security file, would you 2 have had hired him? 3 A I would not hire anybody, Kennedy 4 or anybody else, who knowingly and 5 deliberately sought to avoid the payment of 6 taxes. That's correct. I would not hire 7 anybody, Kennedy, Foster, or anybody else, 8 and if I tried to do that, nobody should hire 9 me. 10 Q You hired Foster, correct? 11 A No, actually, I didn't hire Foster. 12 Q Hillary hired Foster? 13 A The President hired Foster. Foster 14 was hired as deputy counsel prior to my being 15 hired as counsel. I was told when I 16 discussed the position of counsel with the 17 President that they wanted Foster to be 18 deputy counsel and then I met with Foster and 19 we had extensive conversations about how we 20 would work together and things like that. 21 Basically I did not hire Foster. Foster was 22 hired by the President. 113 1 Q The President and Mrs. Clinton 2 inserted Foster into that job? 3 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 4 that question. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: The President and to 8 some extent Mrs. Clinton determined that 9 Foster should be appointed as deputy counsel. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And that was suggested to you as a 12 fait accompli? 13 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 14 the question. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, and after I met 16 with him and discussed with him at length I 17 was delighted. I thought I was a lucky 18 person. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q And they told you why they wanted 21 him in there, the Clintons? 22 A Yes. 114 1 Q And what did they tell you? 2 A They told me something that turned 3 out to be absolutely correct, that he was a 4 superb lawyer, that he was a great human 5 being, that he was a man of the highest 6 integrity and probity, and that he would be a 7 loyal and able deputy to me and would be 8 helpful to all of us to have him in The White 9 House. There could be no better deputy White 10 House counsel other than Foster or a person 11 like Foster. And I learned that was to be 12 absolutely accurate. 13 Q And they told you they wanted him 14 in there because he could be trusted? 15 A Oh, I assumed that he could be 16 trusted, just like I assume they thought I 17 could be trusted, trusted to do the right 18 thing. 19 Q And they told you they wanted him 20 in there because he'd be dealing with a lot 21 of confidential information and he would keep 22 that information confidential? 115 1 A He would act like a lawyer would 2 act. A lawyer has a duty to keep privileged 3 information confidential acting in accordance 4 with the canons of ethics. 5 Q You are aware in your 30 years of 6 experience that if a lawyer comes upon 7 evidence that his client is committing an 8 ongoing fraud that the lawyer in many 9 jurisdictions has to even turn the client in 10 if the client won't correct it? 11 A That may be true with some 12 jurisdictions, that's correct. That's true. 13 Q And Foster was the kind of person 14 who rather than turning his client in would 15 rather take his own life, correct? 16 MS. GILES: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No, Foster was not 18 that kind of person -- Foster was the kind of 19 person who would turn his own client in if he 20 ran across a continuing fraud. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q He wouldn't? 116 1 A He would. Foster was the most -- 2 was one of the most honest lawyers I've ever 3 met and I met a lot of lawyers. 4 Q He's not the kind of guy that would 5 take lightly being asked to do something 6 illegal? 7 A No, he would not take lightly being 8 asked to do something illegal. 9 Q That's something that would deeply 10 trouble him? 11 A If he was asked to do something 12 illegal? 13 Q Yes. 14 A I'm not sure it would deeply 15 trouble him. He would reject it out of hand. 16 Q For instance, knowing Vince Foster, 17 how many years did you work with him? Over a 18 year, right? 19 A No, seven months. 20 Q Seven years? 21 A Seven months. 22 Q Seven months, in that seven months 117 1 you developed a deep respect for him? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And you've never met a lawyer who 4 was more ethical? 5 A Yes, I think that's fair. I have 6 met other very ethical lawyers. I'm not 7 saying Foster was the most ethical lawyer in 8 the whole world. He was a leader of the bar. 9 He was right on top of -- in terms of ethics 10 and his various other skills he had. 11 Q Based on your experience in working 12 with him and your appreciation for his 13 ethics, if Foster had come upon facts which 14 actually evidenced that Filegate occurred he 15 was not the kind of lawyer that would have 16 taken that lightly, correct? 17 A No, he would have stopped it 18 immediately. 19 Q And if he had found out -- 20 A If there was truly a Filegate, in 21 other words, if there was really an effort to 22 improperly secure FBI files, if Foster 118 1 discovered something like that was going on, 2 he would stop it immediately. 3 Q And if he had found out that his 4 good friends, the Clintons, were involved, he 5 wouldn't have taken that lightly either, 6 correct? 7 A He would not have taken that 8 lightly. 9 Q And let's say if Hillary Clinton 10 was involved, Foster would have gone to her 11 and said this has to be stopped? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Correct? 16 A If he found that something like 17 that was going on, which obviously I believe 18 he didn't, he would have gone to Hillary 19 Clinton, perhaps, and said this has to be 20 stopped, yes, he might have done that. And 21 then, since I know Hillary Clinton fairly 22 well, I know what she would have done. She 119 1 would have stopped it, if all these 2 hypothetical things were going on. 3 Q Based on your experience in working 4 with Vince Foster, if he went to see Hillary 5 Clinton and said it has to be stopped and 6 Mrs. Clinton said no, Foster would have 7 turned her in? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 9 of the question. 10 MS. GILES: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: Foster would have 12 acted in accordance with the canons of 13 ethics. If there was a continuing fraud and 14 the canons in his jurisdiction or the rules 15 of professional responsibility required a 16 lawyer to turn in his client, which I don't 17 think it does in most jurisdictions, 18 basically, Foster would have acted in 19 accordance with the canons of ethics. 20 Q Which would have been under the 21 D.C. canons of ethics, he would have had to 22 quit, correct? 120 1 A I believe that's correct, yes. I 2 haven't reviewed the D.C. canons recently. 3 I'm not a member of the D.C. Bar, although I 4 became familiar with the D.C. -- 5 Q So Foster would have exited stage 6 left of The White House? 7 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: If Foster found there 10 was improper conduct in The White House that 11 he couldn't stop, there's no question that 12 Foster would have left The White House. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Has it ever dawned on you that 15 maybe the reason Foster killed himself was 16 because of what he had seen at The White 17 House and confronted somebody at The White 18 House and they refused to correct it? 19 A No, that's not correct. 20 Q And he took the ultimate stage 21 left? 22 A That's just not correct. It's a 121 1 fantasy. It's one of -- you know, another 2 phantom. 3 MS. GILES: Objection to this whole 4 line of questioning. 5 THE WITNESS: Another phantom 6 theory. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q How old are you, Mr. Nussbaum? 9 A Sixty-two. 10 Q In your experience, people don't 11 kill themselves every day, do they? 12 A No, they don't kill themselves 13 every day. 14 Q It has to be a fairly significant 15 event to get somebody to do that, correct? 16 A The disease of depression is a 17 complex thing as I've discovered in my 62 18 years. People get depressed for all sorts of 19 reasons. 20 Q Now, before -- 21 A And to the extent -- 22 Q I'm sorry. You wanted to say 122 1 something else? 2 A To the extent Foster was upset 3 wasn't because he found improper conduct but 4 because allegations were being made in the 5 media that -- I think Foster was depressed in 6 the Washington media and I'm saying this 7 because he wrote the statement about how 8 ruining people is considered sport and how 9 false allegations were being bandied about. 10 That's what was depressing, not improper 11 conduct but false allegations of improper 12 conduct. 13 Q Have you ever heard anyone say at 14 The White House maybe Foster didn't kill 15 himself? 16 A I have never heard anyone say at 17 The White House maybe Foster didn't kill 18 himself. 19 Q Have you ever asked that question 20 to yourself? 21 A I've never asked that question to 22 myself. 123 1 Q Have you ever felt at risk 2 yourself, Mr. Nussbaum? 3 A I've never felt at risk. 4 Q Have you been threatened by anybody 5 from The White House? 6 A I've never been threatened by 7 anybody from The White House. 8 Q Now, you're the one who gave the 9 ultimate approval to hire Craig Livingstone? 10 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 THE WITNESS: In effect, yes. I 13 mean, the decision was made by Foster and 14 Kennedy, but I remember them coming to me 15 first and I signed off on it. But I left it 16 to them to do that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q And I take it it's your testimony 19 that you never reviewed any FBI material 20 concerning Livingstone before that decision 21 was made by you to hire him? 22 A That's correct. 124 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 2 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 3 Exhibit 3. 4 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 5 No. 3 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Have you seen Exhibit 3 before? 9 This is a letter of March 10, 1993, delivered 10 by courier to yourself from Larry Potts, 11 assistant director, criminal investigative 12 division. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Does this refresh your recollection 15 as to whether you ever requested any FBI 16 material on Livingstone before the decision 17 was made to hire him? 18 A No, it doesn't. 19 Q Is this letter a phantom? 20 A No, this letter is accurate. It's 21 perfectly in accordance with normal 22 procedures as I understood them. This is a 125 1 letter written to me. I probably never saw 2 this letter. It probably was given to 3 Kennedy. You know, requests were made, as 4 you know -- as you well know, with respect to 5 potential appointees under my name. 6 The material that came in was 7 addressed to me, but it didn't come to me. 8 It came to Kennedy. It was Kennedy's job to 9 review background material with respect to 10 potential employees, including Craig 11 Livingstone. So I probably never saw the 12 letter, and I don't recall ever seeing any 13 background -- any summary of a background 14 investigation involving David Craig 15 Livingstone, and that's typical. I didn't 16 see a lot of -- you know, with respect to a 17 lot of employees both at my office as well as 18 other potential employees in The White House 19 or outside The White House. 20 Q May I call you Bernie? 21 A Sure. 22 Q You may call me Larry. Clearly you 126 1 never hired Craig Livingstone to obtain FBI 2 files or materials concerning Republicans? 3 A That's correct. 4 Q And you never hired William Kennedy 5 to do that, either, did you? 6 A No, that's correct. 7 Q And you never hired anybody in The 8 White House to do that, correct? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q Did you ever look at FBI materials 11 concerning Mr. Kennedy before he was hired? 12 A Not before he was hired. I 13 determined to hire him -- I mean, on the 14 basis of my conversations, as I said, with 15 Mr. Foster, primarily, and then we did a 16 background check. I mean, that was typical 17 at the time. We did our own vetting process. 18 We would then make a determination to hire 19 somebody, and then we still would have a 20 background report done by the FBI. 21 Obviously, if something had come up 22 in that background which indicated there was 127 1 something we didn't know about which was 2 crucial, that person who was hired would be 3 unhired promptly. So we hired Kennedy -- I 4 hired Kennedy on the basis of my 5 conversations with Foster, and then we 6 ordered a background check on Kennedy. Now, 7 since this is a background check on Kennedy, 8 Kennedy can't review his own background 9 check. 10 It's the function of the office to 11 review the background checks of other people, 12 like Livingstone, as well as others. So the 13 question was then who should review 14 Kennedy's. I have this memory that Foster 15 said to me when it came in -- you know, it 16 came in addressed to me, as all these things 17 were addressed to me. Foster said maybe you 18 should look at this, too, rather than me 19 because I have -- Foster's ethical thing -- 20 he and I are former partners and such close 21 friends so maybe you should look at the 22 summary file on Kennedy. I probably asked is 128 1 there anything in there you need me to look 2 at, anything you need me to see? Undoubtedly 3 he said no. 4 Q This is Foster saying that? 5 A Yes. And then I may or may not 6 have looked at it. I probably did look at it 7 if Foster told me I should look at it. I 8 think Foster felt he wasn't the only one -- I 9 don't remember the act of doing it and I 10 don't remember anything in it but I don't 11 remember anything emerging that would cause 12 me to change my view that Kennedy should 13 continue in his employment. 14 Q You don't remember anything in it? 15 A I don't remember anything in it 16 that would stick in my mind as being, you 17 know, affecting whether or not he should 18 continue his employment. 19 Q Was there anything in there 20 relating to tax matters? 21 MS. GILES: Objection. The witness 22 is instructed not to answer -- 129 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You want to go on the 2 confidential record? 3 MS. GILES: No. The witness is 4 instructed not to answer. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll come back to 6 that. Maybe I can convince you at a break. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you ever see your own FBI 9 background security material? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever ask to see it? 12 A No. 13 Q Didn't want to see it? 14 A No -- the answer is, yes, I didn't 15 want to see it. 16 Q Kind of a wild guy when you were 17 young, one of those Vietnam War protestor 18 types? 19 A No, I served in the military prior 20 to the Vietnam War. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Do you want to go on 22 the confidential record for that? 130 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q I take it you talked to 3 Mrs. Clinton about hiring Bill Kennedy? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what did Mrs. Clinton tell you? 6 A She confirmed the things that 7 Foster said about Kennedy, that he was a good 8 person, a good lawyer, indefatigable, honest, 9 trustworthy, highly intelligent, loyal, all 10 the kind of things you want in a good 11 employee. 12 Q She strongly recommended him? 13 A Yes, she did. 14 Q And she told you you ought to hire 15 Bill Kennedy? 16 A Yes, she did say that. She said 17 Foster's recommendation was a good 18 recommendation. You have to understand I 19 wanted somebody, you know, who had good 20 qualities to perform this very sensitive 21 position. In the Boyden Gray White House, 22 the George Bush White House -- I shouldn't 131 1 describe The White House by the counsel's 2 name; it's a little arrogant for me to do 3 that -- in George Bush's White House, George 4 Bush had his deputy, John Schmalz, I think, 5 his name was -- 6 MR. MAZUR: How about Schmidt? 7 THE WITNESS: John Schmidt reviewed 8 FBI files continually in his office, 9 potential appointees, and that's what a 10 deputy counsel was doing then. I felt this 11 was ridiculous. I'm not going to have Vince 12 Foster sit in his office -- Vince Foster's 13 too valuable; there's too many issues arising 14 -- to review FBI files but I recognized you 15 had to get somebody who you had total 16 confidence and trust in their ability to do 17 this and I didn't want Foster to do it. I 18 wanted Foster to be available for a lot of 19 other things. 20 Q You wanted somebody in a higher 21 level? Foster was more sophisticated than 22 Kennedy, legally speaking? 132 1 A I'm not so sure that's true. In 2 any event, I wanted somebody very good. I 3 wanted the equivalent of Foster but I didn't 4 want Vince Foster. I didn't want him sitting 5 in that office as Gray's deputy did just 6 reading FBI files. So Foster and I discussed 7 who we could get who would be good and he 8 came up with the idea of Kennedy, and I was 9 -- he'd been Kennedy's partner for a long 10 time. 11 I didn't want to hire somebody who 12 he didn't know well or I didn't know well. I 13 wanted somebody he worked with a long time or 14 I worked with a long time, one of my 15 partners, for example, who I had trust and 16 confidence in. And he came up with Kennedy 17 and described Kennedy at length and that's 18 when I chose Kennedy but I also discussed 19 Kennedy with Mrs. Clinton and she confirmed a 20 lot of the good things that Foster said about 21 Kennedy. That's how I came to hire Kennedy. 22 Q And you obviously took 133 1 Mrs. Clinton's advice? 2 A Well, yes, I took Mrs. Clinton's 3 advice on this matter. I think Mrs. Clinton 4 has very good judgment, and she worked with 5 Kennedy a long time, too. What was 6 interesting to me about the Kennedy 7 appointment, which I consider an important 8 appointment. Is that both Mrs. Clinton and 9 Vince Foster had worked with him a long time. 10 It's not Mrs. Clinton telling me 11 about some lawyer that she knows or ran into 12 or has a good reputation but she really 13 doesn't know him. These people worked 14 together so they know each other. They've 15 been partners, all three of them, Kennedy, 16 Foster, and Mrs. Clinton, and I knew 17 Mrs. Clinton a long time. I knew Foster a 18 lot less time, but I still came quickly to 19 rely on him. So I felt very comfortable when 20 they recommended Kennedy so highly. 21 Q You frequently consulted with 22 Mrs. Clinton on personnel matters? 134 1 A No, I rarely consulted with 2 Mrs. Clinton on personnel matters. 3 Q But based on your experience in 4 dealing with Mrs. Clinton when she makes a 5 strong recommendation you don't take it 6 lightly, do you? 7 A I don't take it lightly, but I 8 don't follow all her recommendations, either. 9 She and I go back a long way, and if I don't 10 agree with Mrs. Clinton she hears about it 11 and if necessary the President hears about 12 it. That's the kind of relationship we had 13 before The White House. That's the kind of 14 relationship we had in The White House. 15 That's the kind of relationship we still 16 have. 17 Q So she didn't try to impose herself 18 on you on every issue? 19 A She didn't try to impose herself on 20 virtually any issue. 21 Q It wasn't the routine for 22 Mrs. Clinton to make a recommendation for 135 1 anybody that you would hire, correct? 2 A Excuse me, I'm sorry? 3 MR. MAZUR: What's the question? 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q It's wasn't the routine when you 6 worked at The White House for Mrs. Clinton to 7 make a recommendation on just anybody? 8 A No, it wasn't routine. 9 Q It had to be a special case? 10 A I went to her on the Kennedy thing. 11 Yes, it would be a special case if she made a 12 recommendation. On Kennedy I went to her. 13 Foster and I were trying to think who should 14 do it. Foster came up with Kennedy. Foster 15 came to me and then I went to her to get an 16 additional recommendation because I knew her. 17 I knew her a lot longer than I knew Foster. 18 I respected her. I respected her judgment so 19 I went to her and she said that's a great 20 idea. 21 Q So Foster was involved in personnel 22 issues, generally speaking? 136 1 A Yes, he was. 2 Q Who else did he play a role in 3 hiring in The White House Counsel's Office, 4 when you were there? 5 A Everybody. I mean, he and I 6 jointly -- we looked -- I testified about 7 this in the past. I looked upon the White 8 House -- maybe it was my legal experience -- 9 Q Your testimony here's special. 10 A I looked at it like a little law 11 office we were creating after Democrats 12 hadn't been in for a long time. The White 13 House empties out, so I looked upon it as a 14 little law firm that we were creating and 15 Foster and I were sort of the senior partners 16 of this little law firm, and virtually I 17 looked into my mind -- I come from a firm 18 where a lot of the partners are equal. 19 There's not a lot of hierarchy. That's what 20 I was trying to create on a smaller scale in 21 The White House and Foster was my fellow 22 senior partner. 137 1 We jointly made the decisions to 2 pick the other people to work with us, to 3 select our fellow partners or associates or 4 however you want to term it, and we hired all 5 these people together. He had a voice in 6 hiring everybody in The White House Counsel's 7 Office. We hired Cheryl Mills. We hired 8 Steve Neuwirth. We hired Cliff Sloan, but I 9 was the one responsible and I made the final 10 decision, I guess, but I did in a very 11 collegial fashion with Foster. 12 Q And those were Foster's picks? 13 A No. 14 Q Sloan, Neuwirth, Mills? 15 A Actually, they were not. Neuwirth 16 was my pick. He came from my firm. I 17 recommended Neuwirth. Mills he had just met. 18 We both agreed -- she had worked on the 19 transition and he met her on the transition 20 and he recommended her and he didn't know her 21 much better than I knew her. She worked with 22 us for a while and we both chose her. 138 1 People like Sloan who came in a 2 little later that were recommended by some 3 outsiders, I don't remember who, and we 4 interviewed him and we chose him. We did 5 this together, he and I. You know, he was 6 sort of the initial. 7 Q And he consulted with Mrs. Clinton, 8 too, correct? 9 A No. 10 MR. MAZUR: About what? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Personnel issues, from time to 13 time. 14 A I doubt he consulted with 15 Mrs. Clinton with respect to personnel issues 16 involving our office. 17 Q You are aware that he was very 18 close with Mrs. Clinton? 19 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 20 the question. 21 THE WITNESS: They were very good 22 friends and former law partners and they were 139 1 very good friends, yes. I'm aware of that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q I'm going to show you what I'll ask 4 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 4. 5 It's the second page of Exhibit 3, my 6 colleague, Mr. Fitton, tells me. And that's 7 a letter of March 5, 1993, again by courier 8 to you, Mr. Nussbaum. 9 A Yes. 10 Q And it is transmitting a background 11 investigation summary memorandum from the FBI 12 concerning Bill Kennedy. Have you seen this 13 before? 14 A I don't -- this letter it's 15 possible I did see before, not because it's 16 addressed to me, but because it contains the 17 background investigation of Kennedy, and 18 since I have this memory about talking to 19 Foster about looking at the Kennedy FBI 20 investigation I may have seen this letter 21 before. 22 Q This refreshes your recollection 140 1 that you actually saw Kennedy's FBI material? 2 A No, it doesn't refresh my 3 recollection. I think I did, as I said 4 before. The letter doesn't refresh my 5 recollection. 6 Q Now, we were going through the 7 people you talked to after you left The White 8 House? 9 A Yes. There were additional people, 10 by the way. I talked to Jane Sherburne when 11 she was -- I mean, I talked to Sally Paxton 12 during the hearings. You know, I talked -- I 13 don't know -- last week to somebody from The 14 White House Counsel's Office and in the last 15 couple of days in preparation for this 16 session. 17 Q Who did you talk to in the last 18 couple days? 19 MR. MAZUR: Ms. Peterson. 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, so I don't want 21 to make that list sound all-inclusive. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 141 1 Q When you talked to Jane Sherburne 2 after you left The White House, you talked to 3 her sometime about the Filegate controversy? 4 A I don't know if I talked to her in 5 connection -- see, I was testifying before 6 Congress and The White House Counsel's Office 7 was communicating with my counsel, and 8 sometimes I was present at some of those 9 discussions with respect to what my testimony 10 was going to be. They wanted to know what I 11 was going to say or what I remember with 12 respect to various issues. 13 I was being interviewed. There 14 were lawyers representing The White House. 15 They knew I was going to be a participant, a 16 witness, in various proceedings. They wanted 17 to know (a) what I knew about the facts and 18 (b) what I was going to testify to. Those 19 were the kind of conversations I would have 20 with Ms. Sherburne and other White House 21 lawyers. 22 Q You talked to them about The White 142 1 House having done its own internal review? 2 MR. MAZUR: About what? 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q About Filegate. 5 A They were looking into when the 6 thing broke just like us. You know, since I 7 had to testify they were looking into what 8 happened here and they were just trying to 9 determine what happened. To that extent they 10 were doing an internal review. 11 Q They told you who did the internal 12 review in The White House? 13 A No. 14 Q You asked? 15 A No. I think it was being done by 16 The White House counsel people, Jane 17 Sherburne and people working with her. 18 Q They told you they prepared a 19 report? 20 MS. GILES: I'm letting the witness 21 answer generally but the details are 22 privileged. 143 1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember them 2 telling me they prepared a report. They may 3 have but I don't remember it at this point. 4 I didn't deal a lot directly with them. My 5 lawyers dealt with them much more. I just 6 wanted to make that clear. 7 I was already in the role of a 8 witness or a client. Mr. Mazur and other 9 people in my office were representing me and 10 they were really the ones who were much more 11 in contact with The White House Counsel's 12 Office than I was, but on occasion I would 13 participate in a conversation or I would be 14 interviewed in the presence of my attorneys 15 with respect to these matters. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Now, since you left The White 18 House, I take it you were contacted by some 19 people at The White House who said look, 20 we've got to explain this publicly. How do 21 we do that? 22 MR. MAZUR: Was that a conversation 144 1 that he had? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 3 MS. GILES: On which matter? 4 MR. MAZUR: On the Filegate -- 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Filegate. 6 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't have 7 such a conversation. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Nobody ever called you? Anybody 10 from the communications office or the press 11 office? 12 A No, the contacts we had were as I 13 described with the Counsel's Office, 14 primarily my lawyers dealing with the 15 Counsel's Office when this incorrect 16 allegation arose. 17 Q Now, in fact during this whole 18 period as you were leaving The White House 19 and after you left, you did have a feeling, 20 didn't you, you had an impression that The 21 White House was hanging you out to dry? 22 A No. 145 1 Q You never had that feeling? 2 A No, I never had that feeling. 3 Q Didn't you feel like you were 4 getting scapegoated? 5 A I think the media was scapegoating 6 me, but I didn't think The White House was 7 scapegoating me. I think the President made 8 a decision that I'd become so controversial 9 that I should leave. That was his decision. 10 Q I'm sorry. Go on. 11 A But I didn't believe The White 12 House was scapegoating me. 13 Q You didn't agree with that, did 14 you? 15 A No, I thought he was making a 16 mistake but it was his call. 17 Q And in fact, contrary to the way 18 you were portrayed, you weren't somebody who 19 lacked sophistication in the way things work 20 in Washington, D.C.? 21 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 146 1 Q They just painted you that way, 2 didn't they? 3 A I think the press painted me that 4 way, yes, and I think that's largely 5 inaccurate, not totally inaccurate, maybe, 6 but largely inaccurate. 7 Q And you weren't somebody that was 8 the equivalent of a bull in a china shop? 9 They tried to paint you like that, too? 10 A The press did that, New York 11 litigator, New York lawyer thing. Yes, they 12 painted me like that and that catches on. 13 That's what happens. That's the job of the 14 press, to sort of, you know, generate 15 entertainment and controversy. 16 Q Didn't you have the impression at 17 the time that maybe you were being made the 18 fall guy on Filegate? 19 A In Filegate? 20 Q Yes. 21 A Well, Filegate didn't exist as an 22 issue when I left The White House. It arose 147 1 years later. 2 Q Right, when it arose. Isn't it 3 convenient, let's blame Bernie Nussbaum? 4 A No, I didn't get that impression at 5 the time. You know, when we started looking 6 into it, we quickly realized it was what the 7 President said it was, a bureaucratic SNAFU. 8 Q Didn't you have discussions with 9 some of these people, for instance Cheryl 10 Mills, Chuck Ruff, Lloyd Cutler, Abner 11 McLynn, others that I just wasn't treated 12 right by the media? 13 MR. MAZUR: You talking about 14 Filegate? 15 THE WITNESS: By the media? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I'm asking a foundation question. 18 Please don't interrupt. We're getting along 19 fine. 20 MR. MAZUR: I didn't say anything 21 about getting along fine. I don't understand 22 the question. What is what. 148 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Nussbaum and I 2 will deal with this. You stay out of it. 3 MR. MAZUR: What is the question? 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q My question was, didn't you have 6 discussions with some of the people that you 7 worked with at The White House that you'd 8 been scapegoated. From whatever source, the 9 media, other people, other people in 10 politics, et cetera. I mean, here it is, 11 Bernie's convenient. Let's blame him? 12 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I think I have 15 expressed on occasion to people in The White 16 House after I left, my belief that the media 17 really didn't understand what was going on 18 and treated me unfairly from time to time, 19 but I didn't do that very often. Did I ever 20 say that the media treated me badly? I may 21 have, but I quickly understood that that's 22 their job is to treat people badly. 149 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You sometimes use colorful 3 language, don't you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Have you ever used some colorful 6 language and said, can't you find out who 7 that so and so is that was responsible for 8 Filegate? 9 A There is no such thing. No, I 10 never said it because there's no such thing 11 as Filegate. Filegate doesn't exist except 12 in people's fervent imaginations. So I never 13 really said that. 14 Q As is true of all the other 38 15 Clinton controversies except for the Lewinsky 16 matter? 17 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 MS. GILES: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: As is true in other 21 Clinton controversies, yes. Not all in 38. 22 BY MS. GILES: 150 1 Q The reason Filegate never really 2 existed is because you were implicated in it? 3 A No. It doesn't exist because it 4 doesn't exist. Because nobody deliberately 5 sought FBI files on political enemies. It 6 never happened. That's why it doesn't exist. 7 Q You're not refuting that FBI files 8 on Republicans went over from the FBI to The 9 White House? 10 A No, of course I'm not refuting 11 that. Because somebody had a list, an 12 incorrect list that they were using in asking 13 for files. So erroneously, Filegate -- files 14 on Republicans went over to The White House. 15 Q You're not refuting that some of 16 those Republicans are Republicans that have 17 been antagonist to this White House? 18 A No, I'm not refuting that either. 19 Certain of those files, because the Secret 20 Service sent over a wrong list as to who had 21 access to The White House, certain of those 22 files were sent to The White House when they 151 1 should never have been asked for to begin 2 with and they never would have been asked for 3 if the Secret Service didn't turn over an 4 erroneous list. It was a mistake was made. 5 An innocent, honest mistake was 6 made by lower-level people. Filegate doesn't 7 mean that. What Filegate means is a 8 deliberate plot to get FBI files of political 9 opponents and to use it against those 10 opponents. That never happened. That's why 11 there's no such thing as Filegate. It 12 doesn't exist. 13 Q Liberals would never do that? 14 A It's a phantom. 15 Q Liberals would never do that? 16 A Good liberals won't. Bad liberals 17 might. Just like good conservatives never 18 would and bad conservatives might. 19 Q There are some things as bad 20 liberals right, like there are bad 21 conservatives? 22 A There are bad liberals and bad 152 1 conservatives. 2 Q It's very, very possible that some 3 of those bad liberals got their way into The 4 White House? 5 MS. GILES: Objection. Vagueness. 6 THE WITNESS: It is not possible. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q They were all good liberals at The 9 White House? 10 A When I was there, the people at The 11 White House were good, decent, honest, 12 hard-working people who acting in good faith 13 in the public interest trying to do their 14 best for the American people. That was my 15 experience in The White House. They would 16 not seek to pull any dirty tricks or get FBI 17 files to misuse against their political 18 enemies. Those are not the kind people that 19 work in this White House. 20 Q But you didn't know Craig 21 Livingstone, correct? 22 MR. MAZUR: When? 153 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Before he was hired. 3 A I didn't know him before he was 4 hired. 5 Q You didn't know Bill Kennedy before 6 he was hired? 7 A No, I didn't know him before he was 8 hired but I know him very well now. I worked 9 with him for a year and a quarter. 10 Q You didn't know Vince Foster for 11 very long before he was hired? 12 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: No, but I worked with 14 him. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you ever meet an Anthony 17 Marceca? 18 A I don't remember meeting Anthony 19 Marceca or knowing of Anthony Marceca when I 20 was in The White House. 21 Q Did you ever review his background 22 FBI material? 154 1 A I never reviewed his background FBI 2 material. 3 Q You are aware that Anthony Marceca 4 is going to assert the Fifth Amendment in 5 this case? 6 A I've heard that, yes. 7 Q Do you know why? 8 A I do not know why. 9 Q Based on your over 30 years of 10 experience as a litigator, people do not 11 assert the Fifth Amendment lightly, do they? 12 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 MS. GILES: Join. 15 THE WITNESS: Sometimes they do; 16 sometimes they don't. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You're primarily a civil litigator, 19 right? 20 A I've been a criminal prosecutor and 21 I've defended criminal cases but primarily I 22 think you're right. The older I get the more 155 1 primarily I become a civil litigator. 2 Q You're aware that when you assert 3 the Fifth Amendment in a civil case that can 4 raise evidentiary inferences? 5 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 6 the question. 7 MS. GILES: Object to relevancy. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes I'm aware of 9 that. 10 BY MS. GILES: 11 Q Are you saying that Anthony Marceca 12 was a good liberal? 13 A I don't know. I don't know Anthony 14 Marceca. I can't say. He may be a 15 conservative. 16 Q You're not going to vouch for him, 17 are you? 18 A No, I'm not going to vouch for 19 Anthony Marceca. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: We can take a break 21 now. We can take lunch now. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 156 1 video record at 12:20. 2 (Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., a 3 luncheon recess was taken.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 157 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:27 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 BERNARD NUSSBAUM 5 was recalled as the witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 9 CONTINUED 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 11 video record at 1:27. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Mr. Nussbaum, were you ever 14 informed that the reason that Kenneth Starr's 15 investigations were expanded to Filegate was 16 because of testimony that you had provided to 17 the Senate? 18 A No. 19 Q Are you aware that the testimony 20 that you gave concerning Craig Livingstone 21 was referred to Independent Counsel Ken 22 Starr? 158 1 A That's not the Senate. You said 2 the Senate. 3 Q I'm sorry. I meant the House. 4 A The House, oh. Yes, I was aware 5 that a reference was made concerning that 6 testimony to the Independent Counsel's 7 office. 8 Q That resulted in an expansion of 9 the Independent Counsel's investigation with 10 regard to your testimony? 11 A Yes. He was given additional 12 jurisdiction to investigate that testimony. 13 Q Were you ever notified that you 14 were a target or a subject of Independent 15 Counsel Starr's investigation? 16 A No, I've never been notified I was 17 a target or a subject. 18 Q Given your background as a criminal 19 defense lawyer, isn't that somewhat strange? 20 A No. 21 Q Why? 22 A There was no basis for me to be a 159 1 target or a subject. There's no facts. 2 There's no substance. 3 Q You were referred as a reason to 4 expand the investigation? 5 A I was referred under the 6 independent counsel law which said there are 7 reasonable grounds to believe that there 8 should be additional investigation with 9 respect to this matter. 10 That doesn't mean there's no 11 requirement that those grounds have to rise 12 to the level of somebody becoming a target or 13 a subject. 14 Q But the investigation was expanded 15 specifically because of your, Bernie 16 Nussbaum's, testimony? 17 A Correct, because the Attorney 18 General determined that -- that the triggers 19 under the Independent Counsel law were 20 triggered, but those triggers don't mean that 21 somebody's a target or -- that somebody rises 22 to the level of a target or a subject. It 160 1 means that something should be looked into, 2 and as a result of looking into it, then that 3 person may rise to be a target or a subject. 4 Q I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut 5 you off. 6 A No. 7 Q But you took that to mean that in 8 fact you were a target because it was 9 expanded because of you? 10 A What it meant -- 11 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: We're using target 14 and subject in the strict terms which lawyers 15 normally use in connection with criminal 16 investigations. 17 I knew that the Independent Counsel 18 was looking into, you know, my conduct or the 19 testimony I gave as to whether that was 20 truthful testimony or not. I knew he was 21 looking into that, because his jurisdiction 22 was expanded to look into that, so I 161 1 understood that, yes, but that doesn't mean 2 I'm a target or a subject. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q But yet you never received a letter 5 from Independent Counsel Starr that you're 6 either a target or a subject? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q You've since received information 9 from the independent Counsel's Office that 10 you're no longer under investigation? 11 A No, I've never received such 12 information. 13 Q So as far as you understand, you're 14 still under investigation? 15 A I don't know. I may be. 16 Q Have you or anyone else on your 17 behalf made any inquiries to that effect? 18 A We have written the Independent 19 Counsel. We wrote the Independent Counsel a 20 number of years ago. Shortly after the 21 reference was made by the Department of 22 Justice, we wrote a letter -- my attorneys 162 1 wrote a letter to the Independent Counsel 2 with respect to this matter, and we received 3 no response. 4 Q Do you have any information as to 5 whether anyone else who was investigated by 6 the Independent Counsel for Filegate has been 7 exonerated? 8 A I have no information, other than 9 what I heard Starr -- Mr. Starr say when he 10 testified before Congress that he apparently 11 issued a statement that he found nothing with 12 respect to the President or nothing that 13 shows any improper use of files, but I don't 14 know if that's a final conclusion. I mean, 15 he can say that. I don't know if that's his 16 final conclusion or not. 17 Q Did you or anyone else on your 18 behalf follow up on that statement by 19 Mr. Starr and communicate with him and say, 20 hey, we'd like the same statement with regard 21 to me, Bernie Nussbaum? 22 A No. Look -- 163 1 MR. MAZUR: Just answer his 2 question. 3 THE WITNESS: We had a pending 4 request which had to be responded to and the 5 answer is no. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So as far as you know, you're still 8 investigation? 9 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 THE WITNESS: It's possible I'm 12 still under investigation; it's possible I'm 13 not. I don't know one way or another any 14 more. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Now, where did you go to law 17 school? 18 A Harvard. 19 Q Where did you go to undergraduate 20 school? 21 A Columbia. 22 Q When did you graduate from 164 1 Columbia? 2 A 1958. 3 Q When did you graduate from Harvard? 4 A 1961. 5 Q Just run me through your employment 6 history since you graduated from Harvard Law 7 School? 8 A I graduated from Harvard in 1961. 9 I received a fellowship from Harvard upon 10 graduation to travel around the world for a 11 year. It's called a Sheldon traveling 12 fellowship, and I traveled around the world 13 for a year 1961 to 1962. I came back in 1962 14 to the United States, and obtained employment 15 at the U.S. Attorneys Office for the Southern 16 District of New York. I became an assistant 17 United States attorney for the southern 18 district. 19 Q What kind of cases were you 20 assigned to? 21 A I was a criminal assistant. I was 22 assigned to narcotics cases and then 165 1 securities cases, bank fraud cases, things 2 like that. I stayed there for three years, 3 but left initially after four months to go 4 into the United States Army. I served in the 5 army for six months. U.S. Army reserve for 6 six months. 7 Q In 1965? 8 A No. In 1962. I went to the Army 9 in December of 1962. 10 Q Before Vietnam? 11 A Before Vietnam. I emerged from the 12 army -- although people were starting to be 13 sent over. It was very early. So I went to 14 combat medic school in Texas and part of my 15 class was sent to Vietnam actually, but they 16 were regular Army people or people there for 17 two years. 18 I left active duty in May of 1963, 19 and I returned to the U.S. Attorney's Office. 20 I still remained in the Army Reserves and I 21 attended meetings for another five and a half 22 years, and I was an assistant U.S. attorney 166 1 from then until 1966, April 1966. 2 I left the U.S. Attorney's Office 3 in April 1966, and I went to a firm, a law 4 firm that had just been formed less than a 5 year before called Wachtell Lipton Rosen & 6 Katz. 7 MR. MAZUR: Kern. 8 THE WITNESS: Wachtell Lipton Rosen 9 Katz & Kern. That's correct. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And Kern? 12 A Kern. Kern left two years later to 13 go into business, and he's done very well. 14 I went to that firm, which was 15 about a year old, and I was the seventh or 16 eighth lawyer in the firm at the time, and 17 I've remained in that firm ever since, 18 although I have left and come back. I left 19 in 19 -- I became a partner in 1968. 20 I left the firm in 1974, late 1973 21 for almost a year when I went to work as a 22 senior associate special counsel on the House 167 1 Judiciary Committee which was conducting the 2 Watergate impeachment inquiry. I left the 3 firm I think in December of -- 4 Q Let me just stop you there. How 5 did you get that job? 6 A I got that job because I was 7 recommended to John Doar, who was the chief 8 counsel by Robert Morgenthau who was the U.S. 9 attorney for the Southern District of New 10 York when I was in the U.S. Attorney's 11 Office. There was some other people 12 recommending me too to Doar, other former 13 assistant U.S. attorneys, and that's how I 14 got that job. 15 After President Nixon resigned 16 in -- 17 Q Let's stop. When did President 18 Nixon resign, in 1974? 19 A August 1974. 20 Q What did you do in that job? 21 MR. MAZUR: Which job? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 168 1 Q Senior associate special counsel. 2 A Senior associate special counsel. 3 That was my title. I was in charge -- I was 4 the -- I was in charge of the overall charge 5 of all the factual investigation that was 6 being done by the impeachment inquiry staff. 7 They were heads of various task 8 forces, a Watergate Task Force, Cambodian 9 Task Force, the various issues we were 10 investigating; and I was in sort of overall 11 charge of those task forces. I was 12 particularly in charge of the -- my function 13 was to deal with the Nixon tapes and the 14 grand jury report, which was created by the 15 Jaworski office, the office of the special 16 counsel at that time. 17 So I was sort of a senior factual 18 person, the number-two man on the staff, in 19 effect, number two, number three on the 20 staff, right under John Doar. Most of the 21 people -- many of the people reported to me 22 on the staff. It was a collegial staff. It 169 1 was not that hierarchal, but I was a very 2 senior person on the staff, and, you know, I 3 dealt with the subpoenas to President Nixon, 4 drafting those subpoenas, try to get 5 compliance with those subpoenas. 6 I drafted Article III, which was 7 passed by Congress, which was a failure to 8 comply with subpoenas is an impeachable 9 offense. I'm just giving you a broad range 10 of some of the things I did. It was a busy 11 time. 12 Q When you were at Wachtell Lipton 13 leading up to that point, what kind of 14 litigation were you involved in? 15 A Well, civil and criminal 16 litigation, white collar -- 17 Q All types? 18 A All types, but mostly 19 corporate/civil litigation, not tort 20 litigation. Mostly contract litigation, 21 securities litigation. Later when I came 22 back it was more merger and acquisition 170 1 litigation, which I've done a lot of in the 2 last 20 years. But before that it was mostly 3 securities litigation, corporate litigation, 4 contract litigation, but also white collar 5 litigation. 6 Q About how many cases had you tried 7 up to the time that you went to work on the 8 Watergate committee, including the U.S. 9 attorney experience? 10 A A fair number. I don't know. A 11 dozen. Like the first case had the U.S. 12 Attorney's Office lasted four months, five 13 months. There was other people on the case 14 with me. I was the number two man on the 15 case. 16 I had a lot of trial days prior to 17 having gone to Watergate. I was a senior 18 trial -- you know, I was an experienced 19 senior trial lawyer. I had about a half 20 dozen trials in the U.S. Attorney's Office, 21 but they were very long trials, the trials I 22 had -- most of the trials I had, bribery 171 1 cases and things like that. In private 2 practice you don't try that many cases, but 3 you try a lot of hearings and things like 4 many. I had a lot of court experience. 5 Q It's fair to say as someone who had 6 substantial litigation experience leading up 7 to your time as Watergate counsel, that you 8 learned not to take risks? 9 MR. MAZUR: Object to form. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q That's one of the thing a litigator 12 has to know, don't take risks? 13 MR. MAZUR: Object to form. 14 THE WITNESS: That's not true. I'm 15 not sure that's true. I think a litigator 16 does take risks. He takes prudent sensible 17 risks, anybody who's a good litigator. The 18 question is when to take the risk and how to 19 take the risk. That's a judgment call. But, 20 I don't think you play it safe. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Practicing law in New York City, it 172 1 wasn't your practice, was it, to enter into 2 agreements with opposing counsel and not put 3 those agreements in writing, right? 4 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, sometimes you 7 do that. Depends who you're dealing with. 8 If you're dealing with somebody you trust 9 and, you know, there are lawyers in New York 10 who do trust each other, sometimes you would 11 enter agreements with counsel you don't put 12 in writing. 13 Other times it's wise to put 14 agreements into writing. I would agree with 15 you it's probably the wiser course when you 16 enter into an agreement in litigation to put 17 it in writing. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You learned in the course of your 20 practice in those years when you're dealing 21 with your client's rights, you make sure you 22 don't leave anything to chance? 173 1 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 THE WITNESS: You try to cover as 4 many bases as you prudently can and you try 5 to leave as little to chance as you can, but 6 sometimes by necessity some things are left 7 to chance. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In the course of your legal 10 practice, you've learned that sometimes 11 opposing counsel don't honor their word, 12 correct? 13 A I've learned that, yes. 14 Q Yes. Becoming more increasingly 15 true, isn't it? 16 A Well, the world has changed. I 17 think that's probably right, you know. 18 Q Therefore it's prudent, to protect 19 your client, to put any stipulations in 20 writing and not leave things to oral 21 agreements? 22 A Normally that's the better course. 174 1 Q That's the way you practice as a 2 good lawyer? 3 A Generally, that's the way I 4 practice, yes. 5 Q Don't accept what the adversary 6 tells you unless you verify it? 7 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, depends on what 10 kind of things you're talking about. Some 11 things you don't accept. Some things you do 12 accept. Depends who the adversary is. You 13 make a judgment. You make a judgment about 14 people, you make a judgment about the 15 situation. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Trust but verify? 18 MR. MAZUR: Objection. That's not 19 a question. 20 THE WITNESS: That's not a bad 21 rule. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 175 1 Q Kind of like Ronald Reagan said? 2 A Yeah, it was an intelligent thing 3 he said. 4 Q So you went to work on the 5 Watergate committee, and it was that you got 6 to know Hillary Clinton, right? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q How did you come to know her then? 9 A She was a junior member of the 10 staff. She had just graduated Yale Law 11 School, and we hired a number of very bright, 12 young people who had just graduated law 13 school. Hillary was one of them, and it was 14 a relatively small staff, and people got to 15 know each other and Hillary was one of the 16 people I got to know on the staff. 17 Q Did you play any role in hiring 18 her? 19 A No, I did not. 20 Q Was she married to Bill Clinton at 21 that time? 22 A No, she was not. 176 1 Q Do you know how she got hired? 2 A I think Burke Marshall, who was in 3 the Justice Department with John Doar, in 4 fact John Doar's predecessor is assistant 5 attorney general in charge of the civil 6 rights division, but who then in 1974 was 7 associate dean or deputy dean at Yale Law 8 School recommended Hillary and certain other 9 people from Yale to Doar and Doar had great 10 respect for Marshall, I think, and that's how 11 Hillary came to be hired. 12 Q During your time working on that 13 Watergate committee, you got to know Hillary 14 Clinton very well, correct? 15 A I got to know her well. 16 Q You became friends? 17 A We became friends. 18 Q Good friends? 19 A Good friends, yes. 20 Q Spent a lot of time together? 21 A Yes. A lot of time professionally 22 together. The staff worked long hours. It 177 1 was a very intense time, and people did grow 2 close in that -- in the combat of that type 3 of situation. 4 Q During your time on that Watergate 5 committee, you knew of an instance in the 6 Nixon Administration where someone had 7 obtained the FBI file of a political 8 adversary and gone to prison for that? Do 9 you remember that? Does the name Chuck 10 Colson ring a bell? 11 A Yes, of course. I met Mr. Colson. 12 I knew Mr. Colson. I don't recall precisely 13 what happened now, but it may have happened. 14 I'm not disputing what you're saying is 15 correct. I just don't remember at this 16 moment. 17 Q Colson got the FBI file of Daniel 18 Ellsberg on behalf of the Clinton 19 Administration, correct? 20 MS. GILES: Objection. Clinton 21 Administration? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 178 1 Q Excuse me. Freudian slip. Nixon 2 Administration. 3 A I'm not sure. What I remember 4 about the Ellsberg situation was the break-in 5 to the psychiatrist office and things like 6 that. I don't remember whether or not Colson 7 got the FBI file of Ellsberg. I do remember 8 Ellsberg's psychiatrist office being broken 9 into by operatives that were connected, 10 perhaps, to The White House at that time. 11 Q Did you play any role in 12 investigating the obtaining of this FBI file 13 by Colson? 14 A I don't remember that happening. I 15 was overall in charge of the FBI -- of the 16 factual investigation. I just don't remember 17 that happening. 18 Q Given your experience on the 19 Watergate Committee, and you are aware that 20 Colson did go to jail for that? 21 A I am aware that Colson went to 22 jail. I'm not aware he went to jail for 179 1 that, but I'm aware he went to jail. 2 MR. MAZUR: Let him finish his 3 question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q If indeed he did get that FBI file 6 and went to jail, he would have deserved 7 that, don't you think? 8 A If somebody, deliberately, without 9 authority, without basis, gets ahold of FBI 10 files for the purpose of smearing, misusing 11 information in those files, improperly using 12 them in some fashion no business with their 13 files, improper to use the information, to 14 harm the individual concerning whom the file 15 was written, yeah, I think that person should 16 go to jail. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Please stop laughing, 18 please? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: We weren't laughing. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I heard a laugh. I 21 think the audio will be able to pick that up. 22 It's not funny. 180 1 MR. GILLIGAN: We were having a 2 consultation among ourselves unrelated to 3 your questions. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Telling jokes? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: We were having a 6 consultation among ourselves unrelated to 7 your questions. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you please be 9 quiet? 10 MR. GILLIGAN: You asked me a 11 question. I'm responding. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking no 13 more. It's not respectful to Mr. Nussbaum. 14 It's not respectful to us or anybody else. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm entitled to 16 consult with my client, Mr. Klayman. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: It wasn't you who 18 laughed; it was Ms. Shapiro, for the record. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Now I am laughing. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you denying it? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I think we probably 181 1 picked that up. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q How long did you work on the 4 Watergate Committee? 5 A From late December of 1993 through 6 August of 1994. President Nixon resigned on 7 August 9th -- 8 MS. GILES: I think you said -- 9 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 1974. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What happened then? Did you go 12 back to Wachtell Lipton? 13 A I went back to Wachtell Lipton, 14 yes. 15 Q What kind of job did you resume? 16 A Similar to the one I left. I was a 17 partner, a litigation partner, a senior 18 litigation partner, and I have continued in 19 that role. I also taught at law school at 20 that time, too. 21 Q Where did you teach? 22 A Columbia Law School. 182 1 Q I take it you've never been 2 convicted of a crime? 3 A I've never been convicted of a 4 crime. 5 Q Ever charged with a crime? 6 A Never charged with a crime. 7 Q So up to the point that you took 8 your job as White House counsel, you had been 9 with Wachtell Lipton for how many years? 10 A From 1966 through 1962 -- 1992. 11 That's 26 years. 12 MR. MAZUR: Minus the impeachment. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Given your experience in the legal 15 profession, it's kind of unusual for someone 16 to stay with a law firm that long, isn't it? 17 A Wachtell Lipton, we were making a 18 living. 19 Q It's a good firm? 20 A It's a good firm. 21 Q You're a loyal person? 22 A Yes, I'm a loyal person. 183 1 Q When you make a relationship with 2 somebody or some thing, you don't break it 3 lightly? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q You've never done anything to harm 6 the interest of Wachtell Lipton? 7 A I hope not. I don't think so. 8 Q You wouldn't do anything to harm 9 the interests of any entity you've been 10 employed by, would you? 11 A I would harm the interest of any he 12 want or individual perhaps if they acted in 13 wrongful or improper fashion, whether they 14 employed me or not. 15 Q Has Wachtell Lipton ever done 16 anything for which it's been held legally 17 liable? 18 A No. It consists of a group of very 19 able and very honest lawyers, especially the 20 leaders of the firm, Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen 21 & Katz. 22 Q How did you get your job as White 184 1 House counsel? 2 A I was in -- I stayed in touch with 3 Hillary over the years. 4 Q Why did you stay in touch with her? 5 A Because we were friends and because 6 she was a good lawyer, and there were one or 7 two matters that we worked on -- our firms 8 worked on in common, in the heyday of the 9 take over business in the '70s and '80s, I 10 guess, there was a lot of state litigation 11 involving state take over statutes and the 12 Rose Law Firm were either be on our side in 13 the matter or the other side in the matter, 14 and I would have contact with Hillary from 15 time to time with respect to those things, 16 not often. 17 Q But Hillary Clinton's not really a 18 litigator, is she? 19 A Oh, no she's a litigator. 20 Q Did she ever try any cases? 21 A Yeah, she tried cases, I believe, 22 in Arkansas. You know, not extensive trial 185 1 experience because most civil litigators in 2 the non-tort area don't go to trial at all 3 for the cases that settle, 95 percent of the 4 cases are settled. There's a lot of 5 hearings, there's a lot of arguments. You 6 understand that. Your kind of stuff. 7 Q Go on. I'm sorry. 8 A I kept in touch with her over the 9 years. I contributed from time to time to 10 her husband's campaigns in Arkansas, not a 11 lot of money. A few hundred dollars. I kept 12 in touch in that fashion, and I watched her 13 husband's career. 14 Then when he ran in 1992, I was 15 involved to some extent in the campaign. I 16 was very busy at the time. I had a major 17 matter. I was representing law firms at this 18 point in time in my history. I was 19 representing Kaye, Scholer in a fairly 20 prominent case that occurred in 1992. So I 21 really didn't have any time to take time off 22 from my job, from my profession, and go work 186 1 on the campaign on a full-time basis, which I 2 might have done if I wasn't so busy in my 3 legal practice at the time. 4 But I did keep in touch with the 5 campaign, and I acted as an advisor with 6 respect to various sensitive issues that 7 might arise from time to time. I met with 8 Hillary a number of times during the 9 campaign, and I met with other people in the 10 campaign, too. So I kept in touch with the 11 campaign. 12 I played a role, a very small role 13 in the campaign, and then after the campaign 14 was over and the President had won and became 15 President elect, Governor Clinton, I was 16 asked to head the transition along with 17 another person, Peter Edelman, the Justice 18 Department transition team which I did, which 19 I agreed to do. I did that in November 20 of 19 -- November and December of 1992. 21 Thereafter I was asked to be counsel for the 22 President. 187 1 Q You were recommended as White House 2 counsel by Hillary Clinton? 3 A Yeah, I think among others. Among 4 others, but she was an important 5 recommendation. 6 Q She was instrumental in getting you 7 your job as White House counsel? 8 A I think she was as important as any 9 other person -- there were other people also 10 recommending me as White House counsel, so 11 she wasn't the only one, but I think she was 12 the most important one obviously, and I think 13 she was -- I don't know if you can say 14 instrumental, but quite important in my 15 becoming White House counsel, yes. 16 Q She had worked with you? 17 A Correct. 18 Q She knew you were a fine lawyer? 19 A Well, I think she thinks that. 20 Q She knew that you were someone with 21 the level of sophistication that could be 22 White House counsel? 188 1 A I think she believed that at the 2 time, yes. 3 Q She therefore wanted you on the 4 job? 5 A I think that's true. 6 Q She actually made the decision to 7 put you in the job? 8 A I don't think that's true at all. 9 I think the President made the decision. 10 Q Well, technically? 11 A I don't think technically. I think 12 actually. 13 Q In your years of having known and 14 worked with Mrs. Clinton, you know she's a 15 pretty strong-willed person? 16 A She's a very strong-willed person, 17 that's correct. 18 Q Frequently you've known in 19 interacting with her and her husband that she 20 makes some decisions, correct? 21 A I think like any husband and wife, 22 they have a very, you know, close 189 1 relationship, and I think they have 2 tremendous respect for each other's judgment, 3 and I think he relies on her judgment and I 4 think he relies on her judgment. 5 Q Do you remember during the 6 campaign, I'm sorry. 7 A I'm sorry. I didn't mean to keep 8 talking. 9 Q During the campaign, that the two 10 of them would say, you elect Bill Clinton, 11 you get two for the price of one? 12 A Yes, I remember that being said. 13 It wasn't very intelligent to say that, but I 14 remember it being said. 15 Q Why wasn't it intelligent? 16 A Because the American people are 17 electing a President, not a duo, and I think 18 they understand that, and I just think it was 19 not -- 20 Q They understand in retrospect? 21 A In retrospect, it was not 22 intelligent to say. 190 1 Q You said that when you worked on 2 the campaign, that you were asked to handle 3 some sensitive issues. What were the 4 sensitive issues? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm going to take a 6 moment to consult with Mr. Mazur, prior to 7 his answering this question. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: On what basis? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Will you please answer, 11 Mr. Nussbaum? 12 MR. MAZUR: Wait a second. We need 13 a consultation and then he can. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: On a privilege issue. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: What possible 16 privilege could there be? 17 MR. MAZUR: Possible privilege is 18 he could be providing legal advice to a 19 campaign. However let us just consult. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: But none of you 21 represent the campaign. 22 MR. MAZUR: We don't know, have a 191 1 record on why he was having these 2 conversations, but if you wait one second, 3 maybe there's no problem. 4 You can answer the question. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q What were the sensitive issues? 7 A I used the word "sensitive." It 8 was a sensitive issue. When the Jennifer 9 Flowers thing arose during the campaign, I 10 was asked my views on how to handle it, how 11 to investigate it, how to deal with it, 12 whether they had any let me rights if 13 Jennifer Flowers was not telling the truth. 14 Should they report it to the law 15 enforcement authorities, should they start a 16 civil action, you know, discussions like 17 that, issues like that. That's what I 18 remember discussing -- you know, that was a 19 sensitive issue. 20 Other issues were not as sensitive. 21 Other issues were, you know, you what was the 22 New York political scene in New York like, 192 1 who could be helpful in New York? What were 2 my relationships with the Cuomo people. How 3 could I generate support in New York? I did 4 that also. I'd give advice with respect to 5 that, although there was a lot of New Yorkers 6 working on the campaign who was as 7 knowledgeable as me about New York politics. 8 Q How Bill Clinton could get out of 9 having got caught calling Mario Cuomo Mafia? 10 A I know what you're referring to but 11 I don't remember discussing it. 12 Q That was on the Jennifer Flowers? 13 A I understand. I know what you're 14 referring to. But I don't remember 15 discussing that. 16 Q So you actually discussed with them 17 whether to refer Jennifer Flowers to 18 prosecutors for false statements? 19 A Yes, I discussed that with -- not 20 with the Clintons. I didn't discuss that 21 with Hillary Clinton or Bill Clinton, but 22 with staff members, you know, if in fact the 193 1 statements were false, is there any criminal 2 charges that could be brought? Is there any 3 civil charges that could be brought? 4 Q Who did you discuss that with? 5 A I don't remember at this point. It 6 could have been -- 7 Q Generically? 8 A It could have been Susan Thomases, 9 somebody like that. I'm not positive it was 10 Susan Thomases. It could have been somebody 11 on the campaign staff. It was just in the 12 initial stages. 13 Q They were actually thinking about 14 bringing a civil suit against Jennifer 15 Flowers? 16 MS. GILES: Objection, relevance. 17 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 20 they were thinking of. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You were aware that Betsy Wright 194 1 was active in that issue? You knew Betsy 2 Wright, didn't you? 3 A Yes, I knew Betsy Wright. I met 4 Betsy Wright during the campaign. 5 Q You knew that Betsy Wright was 6 involved in dealing with these issues, the 7 allegations about the women? 8 A I don't know if I knew then that 9 Betsy Wright was dealing with allegations 10 about women. I knew Betsy Wright was dealing 11 with issues about Clinton conduct in Arkansas 12 during that period because the press was 13 blowing these things up. So I was aware of 14 that, yes. 15 Q You were aware that people in the 16 Clinton camp, we'll call it the Clinton camp, 17 had hired a private investigator to look into 18 these things? 19 A I was aware -- I don't think I was 20 aware they hired a private investigator. I 21 was aware they were having people look into, 22 you know, charges that were being made and 195 1 who was making them, you know, what the basis 2 of these charges were and things like that. 3 I was aware that they were trying 4 to put together, you know, a fact finding 5 operation, which exists I believe at every 6 campaign, but I wasn't aware they hired a 7 particular private detective, I don't 8 believe. I don't recall at this point. It 9 could have been I was aware of that. 10 Q Have you heard of someone by the 11 name of Jack Palladino? 12 A Since then. I don't think I heard 13 that name during the campaign. 14 Q You're aware that federal matching 15 funds were used to hire a private 16 investigator? 17 A I'm not aware of that. 18 Q You ever hear that allegation? 19 A Actually, I've never heard that 20 allegation. 21 Q From Dick Morris? 22 A No, I've never heard that 196 1 allegation from Dick Morris or anybody else. 2 Q But you were aware that there was 3 information gathering process about these 4 women who had claimed to have had 5 relationships with the President? 6 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 MS. GILES: Join. 9 THE WITNESS: No. I was aware 10 there was information gathering process 11 against various contentions that were raised 12 during the campaign, one of which was raised 13 by a woman named Jennifer Flowers. I wasn't 14 aware of any other women problems during the 15 campaign. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Now, in the course of staying in 18 contact with Hillary Clinton over the years, 19 she did sometimes discuss with you her 20 experiences in Arkansas in political life, 21 correct? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 197 1 THE WITNESS: We're just two 2 friends. 3 I mean she would tell me, you know, 4 what her life was like in a general sense, 5 discuss her child and her -- you know, the 6 fact that they led a very demanding existence 7 in Arkansas, her husband being a prominent 8 public official and she being a partner in a 9 law firm with a child and with an important 10 practice. 11 I mean, you know, the kind of thing 12 friends discuss. They discuss their lives, 13 and I had those kind of discussions that on a 14 very infrequent basis, but I had those kind 15 of discussions with Hillary prior to 1992. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q She told you sometimes politics in 18 Arkansas can get kind of rough? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 20 the question. 21 THE WITNESS: She never said it 22 like that. She said it was very demanding. 198 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Very demanding. She told you that 3 in fact her husband had been accused of 4 various things in the course of political 5 campaigns in Arkansas? 6 A No. Actually, we never discussed 7 it. 8 Q You're aware of that? 9 A Very generally. I really wasn't, 10 you know, an aficionado of Arkansas politics 11 at the time. Later on when I got to The 12 White House I learned a little more about it, 13 but the charges had been made and things like 14 that. 15 Q But you were aware, I mean, you'd 16 given Governor Clinton some money? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Try to help him out? So you had an 19 interest in, he was an up and coming star. 20 You knew that? 21 A I certainly did. 22 Q It was kind of a little bit like 199 1 betting on a race horse. The race horse some 2 day might come in? 3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You could put it that way, couldn't 7 you? 8 A You could put it that way, yes. 9 Q You knew that his political 10 opponents in Arkansas sometimes had attacked 11 him unfairly? 12 A I knew that in a general way, yes. 13 Q That some of the things they 14 attacked him for involved womanizing? 15 A That I didn't know. I really 16 wasn't -- I didn't know that. 17 Q They attacked him for taking money 18 from special interest groups? 19 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Correct? 22 MR. MAZUR: Did you know this at 200 1 the time? 2 THE WITNESS: That I probably did 3 know at the time but every politician's 4 attacked for that. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q That sometimes he was attacked for 7 doing, or allegedly doing, very unscrupulous 8 things? 9 A No, I didn't know that. 10 Q You were aware that the Clintons, 11 when they were in Arkansas, did have an 12 individual or individuals that were assigned 13 to put out those brush fires about 14 allegations of corruption? 15 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 16 the question. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 MR. MAZUR: What allegations of 20 corruption? 21 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of 22 that. 201 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q That one of the principal persons 3 assigned to do that was Betsy Wright? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I knew Betsy Wright 7 was the chief of staff for Governor Clinton 8 and who handled a lot of the issues for the 9 Governor. That's what I knew. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You've seen the movie Primary 12 Colors, haven't you? 13 A Yes. 14 Q You know the woman who played the 15 role in that movie, you took that to be Betsy 16 Wright? 17 A That's a fictional version of Betsy 18 Wright. That's correct. 19 MS. GILES: Objection to relevancy. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q The woman who killed herself at the 22 end? 202 1 A That's correct. 2 Q That's a pretty accurate movie, 3 wasn't it? 4 A I don't think so. 5 Q Now, I take it that Whitewater was 6 one of the other sensitive issues during the 7 Clinton campaign? 8 A It arose during the Clinton 9 campaign. I had nothing -- I can't remember 10 having anything to do with Whitewater during 11 the campaign. 12 I may have had one or two 13 conversations at the time with Susan Thomases 14 about the allegations that were being made in 15 The New York Times, but I was in the middle 16 of my other matter, and I had nothing to do 17 with the Whitewater matter. 18 Q Do you know whether Susan Thomases 19 has ever served as Hillary Clinton's lawyer? 20 A She may have. I just don't know 21 for sure. I have the impression she has. 22 Q Have you ever talked to her about 203 1 Filegate? 2 MR. MAZUR: Susan Thomases? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Susan Thomases. 4 THE WITNESS: If I have, and I may 5 have after it broke, the conversation would 6 be along the lines that I described in my 7 conversation with Bruce Lindsey, and I don't 8 think you want me to repeat it again, which 9 is, you know, simply that this is a fantasy. 10 But I'm not 100 percent positive I had a 11 conversation with Susan but I may have 12 because I speak to Susan from time to time. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Now, when you got your job as White 15 House counsel, did somebody tell you what 16 your duties and responsibilities were going 17 to be? 18 A I discussed my duties and 19 responsibilities with the chief of staff 20 mostly, Mac McLarty at the time. Basically, 21 it was to, you know, be the President's 22 lawyer, to give him legal advice and legal 204 1 judgments, you know, where appropriate, and 2 to assist in whatever he wanted me to assist 3 in, but particularly the appointment process 4 with respect to legal matters, courts, 5 judges, Justice Department, law enforcement 6 agencies, primary emphasis on those 7 appointments. 8 I wasn't advising on who to appoint 9 to Secretary of State or something like that 10 but who to appoint as attorney general when 11 the Zoe Baird nomination collapsed and 12 various things like that, I was involved in. 13 Significantly involved in. 14 Q You discussed your coming on board 15 with Mrs. Clinton? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What did you discuss with her about 18 that? 19 A Similarly, you know, what my duties 20 would be. I would be the President's lawyer 21 and the White House's lawyer, counsel to The 22 White House, to be a lawyer, to give my best 205 1 advice, my best judgment with respect to 2 issues that arose that were within my purview 3 and to assist them in staffing the 4 administration with good, honest, and able 5 people. 6 Q Neither Mrs. Clinton nor 7 Mr. McLarty ever told you that your duties 8 and responsibilities were going to be to get 9 the Republican files from FBI? 10 A That's correct, neither of them 11 ever said such a thing. 12 Q So getting the files or materials 13 about Republicans from the FBI was not within 14 the scope of your duties and responsibilities 15 at The White House? 16 A Well -- 17 Q Correct? 18 A Obtaining files -- obtaining 19 files -- obtaining files from the FBI was 20 part of what The White House Counsel's Office 21 does. It obtains files, you know, for 22 legitimate purposes. So obtaining FBI files 206 1 for legitimate purposes was part of my -- was 2 within the scope of my employment. 3 Q Those legitimate purposes would be 4 to get those FBI files and materials 5 concerning holdover employees, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q And political appointments? 8 A Potential appointees. 9 Q But it was not part of your duties 10 and responsibilities as explained to you by 11 Mrs. Clinton and Mr. McLarty to get them on 12 people who were not holdovers or political 13 appointments, correct? 14 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 15 the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it 17 exhausts all categories. It certainly -- I 18 did not consider it a part of my job would I 19 have done it to improperly obtain FBI files. 20 I did not consider it part of my job to 21 obtain FBI files -- by improperly I mean to 22 obtain an FBI for the purpose of using the 207 1 information in that file to harm the person 2 concerning whose file was obtained. 3 No, I didn't consider that properly 4 my job to improperly obtain FBI files or to 5 misuse FBI files. I did consider it part of 6 my job to obtain FBI files and use them 7 properly. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q It wasn't part of your job to 10 obtain FBI files and materials on employees 11 that weren't considered to be loyal to the 12 Clinton Administration? 13 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form 14 of the question. 15 MS. GILES: Object to the form of 16 the question. 17 THE WITNESS: It wasn't part of my 18 job to -- improperly -- to obtain FBI files 19 in an improper manner or for improper 20 purposes. That wasn't part of my job. It 21 was part of my job generally to obtain FBI 22 files but for proper governmental purposes. 208 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q It wasn't a part of your job to 3 obtain files from the FBI to look into 4 employees of the Clinton White House that 5 were problems, correct? 6 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 MS. GILES: Join. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q That they were difficult people to 11 work with? 12 MR. MAZUR: I lost the question. I 13 don't understand it. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: He understands it. 15 MR. MAZUR: He may understand it, 16 but I don't know understand it. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. He 18 understands it. Bernie understands it. 19 MR. MAZUR: What is the question? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: It wasn't part of his 21 job as explained to him by Mrs. Clinton and 22 Mr. McLarty, to get files on employees who 209 1 were problem employees? 2 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 3 the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You know what I mean by problem 6 employees? 7 A There may be a situation where it 8 is proper to -- if an employee is doing 9 things which are illegal or improper, it may 10 be -- it probably was part of my job -- it 11 was part of my job to ask the FBI to look 12 into those things and to obtain a report with 13 respect to that. So I'm not sure it's fair 14 to say that wouldn't be part of my job. 15 Q Was it part of your job to get the 16 FBI files of the Travel Office workers? 17 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 A It could be if there was a proper 22 purpose for that. 210 1 For example, if a Congressional 2 committee asked for the FBI files of the 3 Travel Office employees and it was proper 4 under the law to have those files sent over 5 by The White House to the Congressional 6 committee, which I'm not saying it is or it's 7 not, then it would be part of my job -- part 8 of my office's job to obtain those files from 9 the FBI and send them to the Congressional 10 committee, the files of the office of the 11 travel employees. 12 That could fall within the scope of 13 my employment if there was a proper purpose. 14 Q But it wouldn't be part of your job 15 to get those FBI files and materials about 16 employees that were already fired, correct? 17 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 THE WITNESS: No, it could be part 20 of my job to get them about employees already 21 fired if in fact for example -- I'm not 22 saying this was done, but if in fact for 211 1 example again those files were requested by 2 another entity, another governmental 3 institution such as Congress, even though the 4 people have been fired, and to ask for those 5 files to be sent on to Congress. That would 6 be a proper purpose -- perhaps would be a 7 purpose, probably would be a proper purpose. 8 On the other hand -- 9 Q If there had been a Congressional 10 request? 11 A If there had been a Congressional 12 request, but it's not part of my job to pull 13 files or to get FBI files on people for the 14 purpose of using the information in some sort 15 of an illegal fashion. I didn't consider my 16 job was to do illegal or improper acts. 17 Q Or for the purpose of getting 18 information to smear those people? 19 A Absolutely. It was not part of my 20 job to get information from the FBI or 21 anybody else to smear people. 22 Q You are an experienced criminal 212 1 defense lawyer among other things? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q You were aware, during the time 4 that you were White House counsel, that it 5 would be improper by anyone in The White 6 House to insert into an FBI press release 7 that someone who worked in The White House 8 was under criminal investigation? 9 A No -- 10 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 MS. GILES: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: That's not 14 necessarily an improper thing to do. That 15 depends on the situation. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You're aware that George 18 Stephanopoulos did that, aren't you? 19 A I'm aware that George 20 Stephanopoulos told -- as director of 21 communications made statements that the 22 Justice Department was looking into, you 213 1 know, certain allegations with respect to the 2 Travel Office. 3 MS. GILES: Again, I assert an 4 objection of on relevancy grounds. Travel 5 Office inquiries are outside the judge's 6 orders. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that George 9 Stephanopoulos participated in drafting an 10 FBI press release where he made reference to 11 the fact that the Travel Office employees 12 were being investigated criminally? 13 A No, I'm not really aware that he 14 participated in drafting an FBI press 15 release. I'm aware of what I just said 16 before. The statements he made, and I don't 17 think there was anything improper about those 18 statements. 19 Q So I take it that when you were 20 White House counsel you didn't ask anyone to 21 investigate what Stephanopoulos allegedly had 22 done in that regard? 214 1 A No, I did not. 2 Q You didn't recommend any action 3 against Mr. Stephanopoulos? 4 A I did not. 5 Q You are aware, however, that Mac 6 McLarty reprimanded Stephanopoulos for that? 7 A Yes. I think I'm aware that -- 8 well, I don't know if he reprimanded 9 Stephanopoulos or not. I'm aware that there 10 was certain people who believed that that was 11 not the wise thing to do, but it was neither 12 illegal or unethical to do it. 13 Q You are aware that McLarty also 14 reprimanded Bill Kennedy? 15 A I am aware that as a result of a 16 staff study that was done, McLarty did 17 reprimand a number of people among whom was 18 Bill Kennedy. 19 Q You're aware that the reason for 20 that reprimand was that Bill Kennedy had 21 contacted the Internal Revenue Service with 22 regard to the Travel Office. 215 1 MS. GILES: Objection, form. 2 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A No, I don't think -- I don't recall 7 the specific reason now actually for the 8 reprimand, but I do know that I believed very 9 strongly that Bill Kennedy did nothing 10 improper in connection with the Travel Office 11 and the reprimand by Mac McLarty was totally 12 unwarranted and I told Mac McLarty that at 13 the time. 14 Nothing wrong was done by Bill 15 Kennedy or to my knowledge anybody else in 16 The White House with respect to the Travel 17 Office, and the reprimand that was issued to 18 Kennedy as well as the others was unwarranted 19 and foolish act by The White House. 20 Q Did you ask Kennedy to resign? 21 A No. 22 Q Who did? 216 1 A Nobody did. Nobody could other 2 than me. He worked for me. 3 Q So we have a situation here where 4 you, Bernie Nussbaum, are being scapegoated. 5 We've got Bill Kennedy getting a reprimand. 6 He's getting scapegoated. We've got 7 Stephanopoulos getting reprimanded. He's 8 being scapegoated. These people weren't 9 responsible for what happened were they, it's 10 somebody higher up that was responsible? 11 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: Nothing bad happened. 13 We're going back to fantasies and phantoms 14 again. Nothing bad happened. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q So these people were just held out 17 to dry? They were offered up to the media 18 for good measure? 19 A With respect to Kennedy, yes. That 20 reprimand, yes. That was designed to calm, 21 in my mind, the media. 22 Q To appease the media gods? 217 1 A And the political opposition, 2 that's correct. But if you reprimand and 3 apologize, even if you did nothing wrong, 4 maybe they'll leave you alone, but what 5 really happens is when you do that, all you 6 do is you feed the beast. 7 Q That's what happened to you too, 8 right? 9 A In a sense, yes, that's what 10 happened to me. In a sense, yes, that's 11 correct. 12 Q The people that offered you up were 13 the Clintons? 14 A The President, yes, that's correct. 15 Not the Clintons, the President. 16 Q So it's your view? 17 A He made a judgment that it was 18 necessary to do so for him to get on with his 19 important agenda and that my continued -- 20 continuation in office would interfere with 21 that agenda, and the agenda was very 22 important to him. He thought he was acting 218 1 in the best interest of the American people 2 sincerely. That was his judgment. 3 Q Based on your experience 4 professionally and the way you're 5 constituted, that doesn't show an act of 6 great character, does it? 7 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 8 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form 9 of the question. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, it's a judgment 11 he made. That's a judgment I disagreed with, 12 but he made that judgment. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q It shows someone of rather low 15 character, correct? 16 A No, I'm not so sure that's the -- 17 it was a good faith judgment that he made. 18 He really felt that healthcare and the other 19 issues that were on the table at that time 20 were very important to be able to get past 21 Congress and to do and that I'd become such a 22 controversial figure, such a lightning rod, 219 1 that was making it impossible to get on with 2 that agenda. 3 I didn't agree with this. I'm not 4 saying I agreed with this. That was his 5 feeling. He felt that in good faith. He's 6 the President of the United States. He was 7 elected by the American people to serve them. 8 He felt this was the best way at that time to 9 serve them, that if I would leave it would 10 best serve the interest of the people of the 11 United States. I didn't agree. 12 Q If you left, maybe they'd leave him 13 alone? 14 A If I left, maybe it will be easy to 15 get through his agenda. That's the way he 16 would put it and that's the way he believed 17 it I think at the time. 18 Q You are aware that Mac McLarty 19 checked with Hillary Clinton before you were 20 asked to resign. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 220 1 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know if 4 that's true or not. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You've heard that, haven't you? 7 A No, actually I haven't heard that. 8 It wouldn't surprise me, but I haven't heard 9 that. 10 Q You talked with Hillary Clinton 11 about your resignation, didn't you, before 12 you resigned? 13 A I talked -- yes. I didn't talk 14 right before I resigned with Hillary Clinton. 15 When the controversy started ratchetting up 16 in late February of 1994, I talked with 17 Hillary Clinton about that fact, that the 18 controversy's ratchetting up, and she just 19 expressed a sympathy that I'd become such a 20 target of attack. She felt it was very 21 unfair. She felt nothing I did was improper, 22 and she just felt it was very unfair. 221 1 Thereafter, I spoke with the 2 President, and the President at that point 3 did ask me to resign for the reasons I gave, 4 and I resigned. But I didn't talk about my 5 resignation with Hillary. Although I talked 6 with her chief of staff that I was going to 7 resign and the chief of staff said she 8 understood that was going to happen. 9 So I'm sure Hillary knew it was 10 going to happen but I didn't talk to her 11 about it myself. 12 Q You didn't receive any information 13 that Hillary tried to block the President 14 from asking for your resignation? 15 A No, I didn't receive -- I received 16 information that she was upset and distraught 17 that this was happening, but I didn't receive 18 any information that she was trying to block 19 it from happening. 20 Q You understood that she agreed with 21 the President in asking for your resignation? 22 A No, I'm not sure whether she did or 222 1 not. To this day I'm not sure what the 2 interaction was between Hillary and the 3 President with respect to my resignation. I 4 don't know. 5 I know she did not -- I don't 6 believe she made any effort to block it, and 7 I don't know. Maybe she did and failed. I 8 don't know. 9 Q During the time that you've known 10 Hillary Clinton and particularly the time in 11 The White House, she did talk to you from 12 time to time as to what her input was in 13 making decisions about hiring and firing? 14 A No. No. We didn't talk about what 15 her input was in making decisions as to 16 hiring and firing. She -- and actually my 17 impression was that she didn't have a 18 significant input into a lot of those 19 decisions. 20 When I was in The White House, she 21 was engaged virtually full time in the 22 healthcare project, and indeed was not 223 1 engaged in hiring or firing or -- with 2 respect to other issues, which I wanted her 3 to be engaged in because I thought she'd be a 4 great advisor and she had good judgment on 5 these things. I thought the healthcare thing 6 was overwhelming for her that she wasn't 7 engaged in these other things. 8 Q Frequently she delegated to Susan 9 Thomases? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 MS. GILES: Object to relevancy. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Correct? 15 A No, she didn't delegate to Susan 16 Thomases. Susan Thomases was a friend and 17 advisor of hers. 18 Q She relied heavily on Maggie 19 Williams, didn't she? 20 A Maggie Williams was her chief of 21 staff and I think Maggie Williams was acting 22 on her behalf and in the interest of The 224 1 White House. 2 Q Maggie Williams would frequently 3 come down to your office at The White House 4 Counsel's Office on behalf of Mrs. Clinton? 5 A We were in touch on a frequent 6 basis with respect to issues that arose in 7 The White House. You know, the office of the 8 First Lady was an important office in The 9 White House. 10 She was an important advisor and 11 somebody we looked to and her staff, which 12 was a good staff, Maggie Williams being a 13 good chief of staff. 14 Q Maggie Williams sometimes came down 15 on matters relating to the Travel Office? 16 A I don't know that to be true. I 17 didn't discuss the Travel Office with Maggie 18 Williams. I wasn't involved in the Travel 19 Office thing until after the, you know, the 20 firings took place. I wasn't basically 21 involved. I told you I knew about the 22 firings in advance. 225 1 Q When you were in the White House 2 Counsel's Office you did see Harry Thomasson 3 in The White House Counsel's Office at least 4 once, didn't you? 5 A Maybe. I know Harry Thomasson and 6 he might have come to Foster. 7 MR. MAZUR: Do you remember seeing 8 Harry Thomasson? 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know one way 10 or the other. Wouldn't surprise me if I did; 11 wouldn't surprise me if I didn't. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You saw David Watkins in The White 14 House Counsel's Office? 15 A Yes, I did. 16 Q He came down on the Travel Office 17 matter, didn't he? 18 A I didn't know it at the time. I 19 know it now. He had conservations, 20 certainly, with Foster with respect to the 21 matter. 22 Q How did you learn that? 226 1 A I may have known it at the time -- 2 after this became such a big issue, this 3 Travel Office issue, you know, Foster told me 4 the basic chronology of what happened, you 5 know, so he might have told me, you know, he 6 discussed this matter with Watkins. 7 Watkins was the one who was in 8 charge of the Travel Office. He was the 9 administrator, in effect, assistant to the 10 President in charge of administration. So, 11 he was a natural person for Foster to talk to 12 with respect to that matter. 13 Q You saw Catherine Cornelius in The 14 White House Counsel's Office? 15 A I may have seen her in The White 16 House counsel's office when Foster was 17 talking to her, interviewing her and getting 18 facts with respect to the Travel Office. 19 Q You're aware that Foster held 20 meetings in his office about the Travel 21 Office? 22 A Sure, I'm aware of that. 227 1 Q That at least on one of those 2 occasions David Watkins and Harry Thomasson 3 and Catherine Cornelius were present in the 4 office? 5 A That may well be true. 6 MR. MAZUR: Do you have any 7 recollection? 8 THE WITNESS: I have no 9 recollection but it probably happened. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Please. Please. 11 That's inappropriate. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Now, when you -- 14 MR. MAZUR: Let's take a break. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: We're not taking any 16 break. 17 MR. MAZUR: We're taking a break. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I want that 19 certified. That was blatant. 20 MR. MAZUR: There's no pending 21 question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. That's 228 1 blatant and outrageous. 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video 3 record at 2:25. 4 (Recess) 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 6 video record at 2:35. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. Nussbaum, during the break, did 9 you discuss this whole issue of meetings in 10 The White House Counsel's Office on Travel? 11 MR. MAZUR: Don't answer. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Travel Office with your counsel? 14 MR. MAZUR: Don't answer the 15 question. His conversations with me are 16 privileged. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: The issue is not. 18 I'm not asking specifically what was said at 19 this point in time. 20 MR. MAZUR: If you have a question, 21 he'll answer a question. He's not going to 22 answer questions about his communications 229 1 with me. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: You're not going to 3 let him answer that? 4 MR. MAZUR: Correct. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: You're not going to 6 let me ask whether or not he's? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q During this break, did you discuss 9 your prior testimony that you gave right 10 before the break when your counsel got up and 11 demanded to consult with you? 12 MR. MAZUR: He's not going to tell 13 you what the content of his conversations 14 with me. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask content. 16 I said did you discuss. 17 MR. MAZUR: You asked about the 18 content of the discussion. He's not going to 19 answer the question. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mazur, I don't 21 mean this in a provocative way. 22 MR. MAZUR: It doesn't matter 230 1 whether you're provocative or not. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: What you did was 3 highly inappropriate and I am going to submit 4 this to the court. 5 MR. MAZUR: I don't think it is 6 improper. But he's not going to answer. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I am going to request 8 appropriate relief and I ask that it not 9 happen again. 10 MR. MAZUR: That what not happen 11 again? That we not talk? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: The whole conduct. 13 Now, Mr. Nussbaum is here, and he was trying 14 to give some testimony, and you interrupted 15 him, and he's an officer of the court, and he 16 tells me he's telling me the truth, and you 17 stop him from telling me the truth. I don't 18 understand that. 19 MR. MAZUR: I don't know what 20 you're talking about but fortunately there's 21 a record here of what went on. In the 22 meantime. 231 1 MR. KLAYMAN: There is. 2 MR. MAZUR: In the meantime, he can 3 answer your questions, but not about his 4 conversations with me. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, what you've 6 done, you've done. I ask that it not happen 7 again. I'm going to submit this to the 8 court. 9 MR. MAZUR: Do you have a question? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I obviously have a 11 lot of questions, Mr. Mazur, so just calm 12 down. 13 MR. MAZUR: I think we're in 14 control. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q When you worked at The White House, 17 you listed the names of the people that you 18 worked with before? 19 A Some of them. 20 Q Right. Two of your secretaries 21 were Betsy Pond and Linda Tripp, correct? 22 A That's correct. 232 1 Q Based on your experience in working 2 with Linda Tripp, do you believe she's a 3 dishonest person? 4 A I know of no dishonest act that she 5 performed while she worked for me. She was a 6 competent, able secretary when she worked for 7 me. 8 I do know that since she worked for 9 me she has apparently testified that she 10 saw -- and I haven't read her deposition, so 11 I'm getting this from the public press, that 12 she saw stacks of FBI files or she believes 13 she saw stacks of FBI files in The White 14 House Counsel's Office and she saw people 15 inputting those files into computers. 16 I believe that testimony to be 17 totally and utterly inaccurate. Now, whether 18 it's deliberately inaccurate or whether she's 19 confused, I do not know, so I don't know if 20 she's lying or she's not lying or she 21 believes it or she doesn't believe it. I 22 know what she's testifying to is not the 233 1 truth. 2 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp at the 3 break with your counsel? 4 MR. MAZUR: Do not answer the 5 questions about the conversations during the 6 break. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you discuss this issue at the 9 break with your counsel? 10 MR. MAZUR: Mr. Klayman, he's not 11 going to answer those questions. That 12 issue's already teed up. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: You're answering it 14 for him, Mr. Mazur. 15 MR. MAZUR: No, I'm not. I'm 16 instructing him not to answer. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: It's instructed. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Now, from your testimony this 20 morning, it's my understanding that you 21 weren't hands on with regard to what 22 Livingstone was doing or Kennedy was doing or 234 1 Foster was doing with regard to reviewing FBI 2 materials, correct? 3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: That's correct. I 6 wasn't hands on. I knew generally the 7 procedures that we were following, but I was 8 not hands on with respect to that. That's 9 not a function I really wanted to participate 10 in, you know, reading FBI files. But I knew 11 it was an important function, a sensitive 12 function, and had to be done by good people. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q It wasn't your role or your style 15 to micromanage your employees, correct? 16 A That's correct. It's not my role 17 or my style to micromanage my employees. 18 Q You testified that you trusted 19 Kennedy and you trusted Foster as fine 20 lawyers in public service? 21 A That's correct. Absolutely. 22 Q You really didn't get involved in 235 1 what they were doing, you just told them to 2 go do it? 3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Correct? 7 A Most of the time, that is true. 8 Virtually all of the time that is true 9 especially with Foster and Kennedy. 10 Q You weren't there every minute that 11 Craig Livingstone was ordering up FBI 12 materials for Bill Kennedy? 13 A I wasn't there every minute he was 14 ordering up FBI materials for Bill Kennedy. 15 That could be White House Counsel's office. 16 Q You weren't there at all? 17 A I was in The White House counsel's 18 office, this is part of the function. 19 Q You were there. 20 A To order up FBI files. To order up 21 FBI files for proper purposes, namely for 22 background checks on potentially appointees 236 1 or holdovers or things like that. 2 Q But you didn't require either 3 Livingstone, Marceca, Kennedy, or Foster to 4 come to you and say, show me the lists of the 5 FBI files you're ordering up? 6 A No, I did not. 7 Q You never did that, correct? 8 A That's correct. 9 Q You never asked them to show you 10 the lists after the fact, either, did you, 11 after the materials were obtained? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q So you don't really know what they 14 ordered up, correct? 15 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 16 the question. 17 MS. GILES: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: I know Foster, I know 19 Kennedy, I know Betsy Pond, I know Deborah 20 Gorham, I even know to a limited extent, to a 21 lesser extent, Craig Livingstone, although 22 not as well, but especially with respect to 237 1 the first four, you know, I know them to be 2 honest people, people of great integrity, who 3 would not do anything improper or illegal or 4 unethical and who would know because they're 5 all intelligent people in addition, who would 6 know that ordering up FBI files on 7 Republicans or political opponents would be 8 wrong or inputting such files into computers 9 would be wrong, and I know these people would 10 never, never do such a thing. 11 Now, also we have a fairly small 12 office. I wasn't in the West Wing, it's 13 true, but I would visit Kennedy's office, you 14 know, from time to time, and I never saw any 15 such conduct occurring myself; although, I 16 wasn't over there that much in effect, but I 17 know these people and I know their nature and 18 I knew they would never do such a thing. 19 Now, Linda Tripp says that she saw 20 them do such a thing and I'm not saying she 21 did say that because I haven't read her 22 testimony in detail. She's just plain wrong. 238 1 She's inaccurate. She's not telling the 2 truth. Whether deliberately or not, I can't 3 comment because I don't know. 4 Q Are you saying she's delusional? 5 A I'm not saying she's delusional. 6 She may have been confused. 7 Q Do you have any information that 8 Linda Tripp makes things up? 9 A The only -- 10 Q Firsthand knowledge. 11 A I have no -- when she worked for 12 me, I have no knowledge that she made things 13 up. When she worked for me, I said she was 14 an efficient, competent secretary and I know 15 of no dishonest action performed while she 16 worked for me. 17 Q Are you aware that when she 18 testified, she had rather nice things to say 19 about you? 20 A I am generally aware Mr. Mazur 21 mentioned that she, you know, said some nice 22 things about me. I'm saying actually some 239 1 nice things about her. She was an able, 2 competent secretary who performed her job 3 well when she worked for me. 4 Q You had no reason to believe she 5 was dishonest? 6 MR. MAZUR: When? 7 THE WITNESS: When she worked for 8 me, I had no reason to believe she was 9 dishonest. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You had no reason to believe she 12 was a problem employee, talking about other 13 employees? 14 A Well, when she worked for me, she 15 wasn't a perfect employee. None of us are 16 perfect, as I said earlier. 17 When she worked for me, one of the 18 problems she did have was sort of getting 19 along with other people, especially Betsy 20 Pond among other people. She was a difficult 21 person to get along with. 22 I got along with her well, and I 240 1 think she got along with me well, but I think 2 she had difficulty getting along with other 3 people in the office and at some point I had 4 to start reordering the office because of 5 that. But I thought she was able and 6 competent. 7 Q But you were the one who actually 8 hired her, right? 9 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You tested her out for a few weeks, 13 and when she was competent, then you hired 14 her? 15 A She was sent up by the Office of 16 Presidential Personnel, and I found her to be 17 able and competent, certainly much more so 18 than people who had been sent up prior to 19 her. She was an experienced person. She'd 20 worked in The White House before, and she was 21 good at her job. 22 Q You had faith and confidence that 241 1 she'd perform it competently? 2 A Yes. 3 Q In fact she did? 4 A She did, yes. 5 Q Linda Tripp had high standards, 6 didn't she? 7 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I think Linda Tripp. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Kind of like ourselves, a 12 compulsive person, correct? 13 A I think that's fair to say. She 14 was a driven person like ourselves. 15 Q Driven person? 16 A And she performed. She was an 17 experienced person, she worked in The White 18 House a lot longer than most of us had worked 19 in The White House, and during that period of 20 time when she worked for me, she did a good 21 job. 22 Q Kind of like ourselves didn't 242 1 countenance fools, correct? 2 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You know what I mean by that? 6 A I think she had a difficult 7 personality. I think -- I guess I'm used to 8 getting along with difficult personalities. 9 I got on with her. 10 Q You're from New York? 11 A That's correct, maybe by 12 definition. She didn't get along with other 13 people, and I found that a weakness on her 14 part. On balance I kept her on. I thought 15 she was an able secretary. 16 Q The reason she didn't get along was 17 she had very high standards and people didn't 18 meet those standards? 19 MR. MAZUR: Objection to form. 20 MS. GILES: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so. 243 1 Because I think the other people were quite 2 able too. I thought Betsy Pond was able. I 3 knew Betsy Pond a long time, a lot longer 4 than I knew Linda Tripp. And I thought 5 Deborah Gorham was an able secretary. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you remember an instance where 8 Linda Tripp found Betsy Pond's panty hose in 9 her files? 10 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 MS. GILES: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: I vaguely remember 14 hearing something like that that Betsy used a 15 drawer to put some personal items. It's not 16 the smartest thing to do but it's not such a 17 terrible thing. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Including panty hose? 20 A Right. It was some personal items. 21 Q It's not unreasonable for your 22 assistant or secretary, whatever you want to 244 1 call her, to remove that stuff and to be 2 upset about finding panty hose in your files, 3 right? 4 A If that's what happened -- I wasn't 5 aware of the moment or the time although I've 6 heard about it subsequent that that's what 7 happened. I think it could be done in a more 8 professional, more sensitive way than 9 apparently Linda Tripp did it. 10 Q Linda Tripp was very protective of 11 you, correct? 12 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I think that's 15 accurate. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You got the feeling she cared about 18 you and wanted you to succeed in the job? 19 A Yes, I believe that to be true. 20 Q She was quite upset when you had to 21 resign? 22 A Yeah, she was. She was upset. 245 1 Q Because she's a loyal person? You 2 understood her to be loyal? 3 A I believed at the time that she was 4 loyal. She was loyal to me at the time. I 5 believe that, yes. 6 Q At the time you believed she was a 7 good person, in her heart? 8 A I don't know if I -- I believe -- 9 you know, I believe she was a good, hard 10 working person. She had a difficult life. I 11 know she was split from her husband I think 12 and she had some teenage children. You know, 13 it's a tough time in life. 14 She wasn't making that much money. 15 Nobody in The White House makes that much 16 money. So it was hard and she performed, you 17 know, competently and well during that period 18 of time, and I had -- other than the fact 19 that she had this difficult personality in 20 getting along with other employees in the 21 office, not merely the other secretaries but 22 some of the lawyers. 246 1 I said, okay, fine, that's an 2 imperfection she has. I wish her 3 interpersonal skills would be better. But, 4 on balance, she was a very effective 5 secretary, certainly, probably the best I 6 could get at that stage. 7 Q You knew she really liked you? You 8 felt that? 9 A I felt that she did like me, yes. 10 Q You liked her? 11 A I liked her, yes. 12 Q There was a certain professional 13 intimacy between you? 14 A We were -- yeah, we were fellow 15 professionals who worked together. 16 Q As happens sometimes, based on your 17 experience, between a lawyer and his 18 secretary, that secretary does lookout for 19 that lawyer? 20 A I felt she was trying to look out 21 for me, yes. I felt she was concerned about 22 my welfare and she was trying to lookout for 247 1 me. 2 Q You didn't fear at any time she 3 would turn on you? 4 A I didn't. I don't worry about 5 those things, but I didn't fear that. Maybe 6 I should worry about those things, but I 7 don't worry about those things. 8 Q Now, Betsy Pond wasn't, she wasn't 9 up to the same level skill of Linda Tripp, 10 was she? 11 A No, I don't agree with that. I 12 think Betsy Pond is a highly intelligent and 13 very able person. She has her own emotional 14 makeup and her own fragility in a sense, her 15 own emotional fragility, but I think Betsy 16 Pond is in every way as competent in her own 17 way as Linda Tripp. 18 I thought Linda Tripp was better 19 able and that's one of the reasons Betsy 20 ultimately went over to the OEOB and I kept 21 Linda as the main secretary. I thought that 22 the pressures in The White House, Linda was 248 1 able to withstand them because she had 2 experience in The White House. She'd worked 3 in the Bush White House, than Betsy. 4 No one who came in was quite used 5 to the driving pressures that existed, 6 especially in The White House Counsel's 7 Office, crisis after crisis, issue after 8 issue, newspaper story after newspaper story. 9 I thought while Betsy was as 10 skillful and maybe even more so, maybe even 11 more intelligent -- and I think she probably 12 is more intelligent -- than Linda Tripp, 13 nonetheless was less able to withstand those 14 pressures and was burning out. Linda Tripp 15 was sort of tougher and better able to 16 withstand those pressures and since she was 17 also competent and even highly competent, I 18 kept her on. 19 Q Betsy Pond was more fragile? 20 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Less able to 22 withstand the pressures as I just described. 249 1 She's not a fragile person. She's a tough 2 person in her own way, too. She's not a 3 shrinking violet or a little flower or 4 anything like that, but the pressures of The 5 White House ultimately got to her. They got 6 to a lot of people. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You had worked with Betsy Pond 9 going back to Watergate? 10 A Correct. 11 Q In fact, you were instrumental in 12 getting her a job in The White House, weren't 13 you? 14 A Yes. She knew me, she knew Hillary 15 to a certain extent, and she wanted -- I 16 don't think she wanted to come to The White 17 House. I was the one -- this is why I sort 18 of felt guilty. 19 I was the one who sort of talked 20 her into coming because I was looking for a 21 good secretary. I really couldn't find a 22 good secretary. The pay is abysmal for 250 1 people in The White House even compared to 2 the other agencies much less private 3 practice. So I did induce her to come into 4 Counsel's Office to work as my secretary. 5 Q So you and Hillary gave her a push? 6 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 THE WITNESS: Not Hillary. I did 9 it. Hillary had nothing to do with Betsy 10 Pond being hired as a secretary in The White 11 House Counsel's Office. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Hillary knew you were hiring Betsy 14 Pond? 15 A She did not. 16 Q You didn't discuss Betsy Pond with 17 Hillary? 18 A I didn't discuss Betsy Pond with 19 Hillary. I don't think Hillary would 20 recognize Betsy Pond. 21 Q You don't know? 22 A Although Betsy reminded her that 251 1 they worked together on the Watergate 2 inquiry, Hillary would remember. If Hillary 3 saw Betsy Pond today, I don't know if she 4 would recognize her. I doubt it. But maybe. 5 I don't know. 6 Q You don't know whether Betsy Pond 7 was communicating with Hillary's office when 8 you weren't there? 9 A Betsy Pond was not communicating 10 with Hillary when I wasn't there -- 11 Q You don't know that for a fact, do 12 you? 13 A I know Betsy. I know Betsy. I 14 know that's not the kind of thing she would 15 do. 16 Q You have a lot of faith in people 17 for a northeastern, don't you? 18 A I have faith in good people. 19 Q You have faith in the innocence of 20 strangers? 21 A Sometimes, yes. 22 Q There was somebody else who worked 252 1 in your office, Deborah Gorham. Do you 2 remember her? 3 A Yes. She worked for Vince Foster 4 primarily, but she worked in our office. 5 Q Who hired Deborah Gorham? 6 A Vince. 7 Q You didn't play a role in that? 8 A He told me he was hiring her, but 9 he can hire his own secretary. 10 Q Did you have much interaction with 11 Deborah Gorham? 12 A Yes, not a lot but some. The whole 13 White House Counsel's Office, at least where 14 the counsel sits and the deputy counsel and 15 secretary, is not much larger than where we 16 are right now, this whole area here. So you 17 see people a lot. 18 If, you know, Betsy was busy or if 19 Linda was busy after Linda came on, you know, 20 I would work on occasion with Deborah Gorham, 21 but not frequently. She worked for Vince. 22 Q For a while she sat outside your 253 1 office? 2 A Yes. 3 Q She later got transferred to the 4 OEOB, too? 5 A Correct, after Vince died. 6 Q Did you send her up there? 7 A I think she probably came to me or 8 came to -- you know, either came to me or 9 came to others. She didn't have much to do 10 after Vince died. 11 Q She was pretty broken up about it? 12 A Yes, she was very broken up about 13 it. 14 Q She wanted to leave the memory 15 behind a way of getting her out of that 16 office? 17 A I think that's probably true. 18 Probably that's true. 19 Q Now, Vince Foster, we'll call him 20 Vince, he had a safe in your office, right? 21 A No. I had a safe in my office. He 22 used my safe. I had a safe. 254 1 Q The reason he used your safe is 2 because his office was too small to house a 3 safe? 4 A His office didn't have a safe and 5 it was kind of small. It would have been 6 tougher to house a safe. Certainly not a 7 safe as large as the one I had in my office. 8 A smaller safe could have been in his office. 9 But it was necessary. We were sort of 10 together. He can use my safe or even call it 11 our safe, you know, it doesn't make any big 12 difference. 13 Q Deborah Gorham had the combination 14 to that safe? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Anthony Marceca had the combination 17 to that safe? 18 A I don't think so, no. 19 Q Betsy Pond had the combination to 20 that safe? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Linda Tripp had the combination to 255 1 that safe? 2 A I think so, yes. 3 Q Steve Neuwirth had the combination? 4 A If he wanted it, he could have 5 gotten it, I guess. 6 Q Cliff Sloan? 7 A No, he probably didn't, I don't 8 think, but he probably could have gotten it 9 if he wanted it. 10 Q Anybody else? 11 A I'm sure Cheryl Mills could have 12 gotten it, too, I mean any associate counsel 13 who had a reason to use the safe. They 14 didn't generally. 15 Q Bill Kennedy had the combination? 16 A I don't know if he had the 17 combination but he could have easily gotten 18 the combination. 19 Q Livingstone could have gotten the 20 combination? 21 A I don't think Livingstone could 22 have gotten the combination without talking 256 1 to Kennedy or me. 2 Q He could have gotten it from 3 Kennedy? 4 A He could have. 5 Q Linda Tripp could have the 6 combination? 7 A Linda Tripp certainly had the 8 combination. 9 Q You didn't always keep your door 10 lock when you left the office, did you? You 11 left your door open sometimes? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So they could have come in and put 14 things in the safe and taken things out? 15 Those people you just mentioned. 16 A It's possible. It's possible that 17 would happen. I don't think it would happen. 18 But it's possible. Maybe it did if they had 19 a legitimate reason. Certainly Foster he 20 wants to put something in the safe, he can 21 put something in the safe. 22 Q You kept your own background file 257 1 in that safe, didn't you? 2 A No. My own background file, my FBI 3 file? 4 Q Your FBI background file? 5 A No. 6 Q What was kept in that safe? 7 A Not much. Very little. 8 MS. GILES: Caution the witness to 9 general subject matter of the documents, 10 nothing specific, nothing classified. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Generically, what was in the safe? 13 A The only thing that was kept there 14 for any length of time was there was an 15 evacuation plan which wasn't particularly -- 16 well, it was classified -- I think it was 17 classified. It wasn't a high classification, 18 as to what happens in the event of a national 19 emergency in terms of evacuating The White 20 House, evacuating The White House staff, 21 evacuating the President. 22 There were all sorts of procedures 258 1 which had been developed by the prior 2 administration which were updated and 3 upgraded by various administrations as time 4 went on. There was a book containing those 5 procedures. That I remember was being kept 6 in the safe. 7 It wasn't the most secret thing in 8 the world. We kept that in the safe. And 9 then miscellaneous things from time to time 10 were put in the safe. For example, I 11 think -- I don't have a great memory of 12 this -- I think one of the few FBI reports I 13 ever looked at or glanced at may have been 14 Janet Reno's FBI report. 15 If I did and I kept it, I would put 16 that in the safe. I would not leave that on 17 my desk. Every so often I would receive 18 documents from the National Security Council 19 involving issues that had arisen. One of the 20 members of my staff -- was on my staff as 21 well as on the staff of the National Security 22 Council. 259 1 Every so often an issue would arise 2 with respect to National Security issues that 3 had legal implications in one form or another 4 and I may get an NSC document from that 5 person or from the NSC directly. That might 6 go into the safe for a period of time. But 7 the safe wasn't used that much. I didn't 8 keep a lot of super sensitive classified 9 documents in my office. 10 Q That was you but the other people 11 that had access could have used it to secure 12 anything that they thought should have been 13 secured? 14 A No. The safe was my safe and 15 Foster's safe. It was my safe that Foster 16 used, but you could say it was our safe. 17 If somebody else wanted to put 18 something into that safe, they would not, 19 except in the most unusual circumstance, feel 20 they could just walk into my office and open 21 the safe and put something in. If somebody 22 wanted to put something in that safe, they 260 1 would give it to my secretary or give it to 2 me directly and say, can you please have 3 Bernie put it in the safe or have Vince put 4 it into the safe. 5 Craig Livingstone and even Bill 6 Kennedy, who was the senior person in the 7 office, I don't believe it would be fair to 8 say had direct access to the safe. Of course 9 secretaries had direct access. Linda Tripp 10 or Betsy Pond who really used to open the 11 safe for me because I was clumsy with respect 12 to opening the safe, to put it mildly, they 13 could -- they would have direct access -- 14 Q You're not mechanically inclined? 15 A I'm not that mechanically inclined. 16 Better than people think. 17 Q Neither am I. 18 A But lawyers generally did not have 19 access to the safe. The only lawyers with 20 access to the safe are Vince and myself and 21 our secretaries had access to it because they 22 worked for us and they had the combination 261 1 and indeed they would open it for us. 2 Q They could put things in there and 3 you may not have known it? 4 A They could. I doubt it but they 5 could. 6 Q Of course Vince could have put 7 anything in there that he wanted because it 8 was his to use? 9 A It was his to use. Vince could put 10 anything there he wanted. 11 Q So if Vince had for instance FBI 12 summary materials on his desk, he could have 13 used the safe to store them? 14 A Yes, he could have. He could have. 15 Q You did see folders in that safe, 16 didn't you, manila folders, sometimes? 17 A I don't recall at this moment. 18 It's possible. But I just don't recall. 19 Q You are aware that FBI summary 20 materials were sometimes put in the safe? 21 A No, I'm not aware. The only FBI 22 summary material that I'm aware that might be 262 1 in the safe, as I indicated earlier, the 2 Janet Reno report which I would put in the 3 safe and perhaps one other, Louie Freeh, when 4 he was selected to be head of the FBI, it's 5 possible that I might have taken a look at a 6 portion of his FBI background report, in 7 which case I would have put that in the safe 8 if I kept it overnight. I don't recall 9 looking at any other FBI reports. 10 The only other possibility is Ruth 11 Ginsberg which is another FBI report. If an 12 issue arose that I might have looked at when 13 she was appointed to the Supreme Court. 14 Other than that I didn't look at FBI reports, 15 and I don't know of any other FBI reports in 16 the safe. 17 The only one I sort remember is the 18 Reno one. The others I don't even remember 19 being in the safe. But it's possible Freeh 20 was. I doubt I looked at the Ginsberg one. 21 Q But you didn't make it a practice 22 of looking in the safe every day to see what 263 1 was in there? 2 A No. The safe wasn't used all that 3 much. 4 Q You didn't go in there that much? 5 A I didn't go in there that much. 6 Q Particularly since you weren't 7 mechanically inclined and couldn't open the 8 darn thing up. 9 A I could get it opened immediately 10 because I wasn't mechanically inclined I 11 could ask one of the people to step in and 12 open it. They were sitting five feet, ten 13 feet away from it. 14 Q But you, yourself, Bernie Nussbaum, 15 went in there. You just answered it. 16 So if Vince Foster had put some FBI 17 materials in that safe or somebody else, you 18 may not even have known what was put in there 19 because it may been taken out by the time you 20 ever went into the safe? 21 A The only one who could put 22 materials in and take them out would be Vince 264 1 Foster. He's the only one who would have 2 access. That's not the kind of thing Vince 3 Foster would do. 4 Q It would be prudent, wouldn't it? 5 It would be appropriate to put FBI materials 6 in a safe? 7 A Yes, it would. 8 Q That's the right thing to do? 9 A But Vince Foster wasn't reading FBI 10 materials. Bill Kennedy was reading FBI 11 materials. That was the whole purpose of my 12 organization of the office, to move the FBI 13 stuff away from Foster and into somebody else 14 who I trusted, namely Kennedy. 15 Q Have you read the testimony of Bill 16 Kennedy in this case? 17 A No. 18 Q He testifies that sometimes he took 19 FBI materials to review with Foster? That 20 makes sense? 21 A Yes, that makes sense, if an issue 22 arose with respect to an appointee, Kennedy 265 1 would kick it up the line. Up the line is 2 Foster. 3 Q Kennedy also testified he could 4 call up the FBI and get them to send over the 5 entire FBI file without having to do any 6 written request. That makes sense; doesn't 7 it? 8 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 9 That mischaracterizes the record. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 11 don't know the details of the specific 12 procedures as to how to get FBI files. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Kennedy testified that he could 15 even call over to the FBI and have the FBI 16 send raw data without a written request. 17 MR. MAZUR: Objection to form. 18 MS. GILES: Object to the form of 19 the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know that to 21 be true. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 266 1 Q You don't know one way or the 2 other? 3 A I don't know one way or the other. 4 I don't know that as a proper procedure or 5 not. I just know that whatever Kennedy did, 6 he would follow the proper procedures. That 7 I have no doubt about. 8 Q I take it you never reviewed 9 procedures on how to get material from the 10 FBI? 11 A No. That was a -- no, I never 12 reviewed materials. 13 Q In fact, you don't know of any 14 procedures in The White House Counsel's 15 Office for that; do you? 16 MR. MAZUR: For what? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q For getting material from the FBI, 19 background material. 20 A Of course, there were procedures in 21 The White House Counsel's Office. 22 Q Were they in writing? 267 1 A The White House Counsel's Office 2 were instructed to follow the procedures -- 3 the basic procedures followed by the previous 4 administration, and I was informed that is 5 the procedures that we were following. 6 Q Whatever they were? 7 A Whatever they were. 8 Q But you never knew what they were? 9 A No, I never paid attention to the 10 details of the; procedures, that's correct. 11 It wasn't important, as long as I had the 12 right people doing it, and they were 13 following proper procedures. 14 Q You didn't view it as part of your 15 duties and responsibilities to pay attention 16 to that? 17 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 18 the question. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did not pay 20 attention to the actual procedures being 21 used. I had confidence in my people that 22 they would follow my mandate to use the 268 1 procedures that were used by prior 2 administrations and to conduct themselves 3 appropriately. I also had confidence in them 4 that if any problem arose, or they thought 5 the procedures were wrong, or difficult or 6 should be changed, they would come to me, and 7 I would make the appropriate decision. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You really don't have any basis to 10 make a value judgment on whether the people 11 that worked under you, like Kennedy and 12 Livingstone and others, did things right or 13 not right, because you never knew the 14 procedures? 15 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 16 the question. 17 THE WITNESS: Not true. I have a 18 basis, because I know the people. I know the 19 people. I know their character, and I know 20 their competence. I know their intelligence. 21 I know their personalities, and that gives me 22 a basis to determine whether these people 269 1 followed proper procedures. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In the course of your long and 4 distinguished legal career, you have had 5 clients who have been very fine and 6 upstanding members of the community? 7 A Yes, on occasion I've had such 8 clients. 9 Q Sometimes -- 10 MR. MAZUR: Let's go on the sealed 11 record. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q On that rare occasion, sometimes, 14 even these fine and upstanding clients did 15 something wrong? 16 A That happens from time to time, 17 that's correct. 18 Q People slip up? 19 A People certainly do. 20 Q Pressures are put on people? 21 A No doubt. 22 Q Sometimes even the most honest of 270 1 people can steal money when they need it for 2 their family, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q There are a lot of pressures at The 5 White House. You experienced that yourself, 6 right? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Did you know Mari Anderson? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know who she is? 11 A I don't remember who she is. 12 Sounds familiar, but I just don't remember 13 her. 14 Q I believe you testified before that 15 it would have been perfectly legitimate for 16 Vince Foster to have FBI summary materials 17 about The White House Travel Office people in 18 his office, given the fact that he was 19 working on them? 20 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 MS. GILES: Objection to the form 271 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: No, the only material 3 I think would be legitimate to have, if the 4 FBI was looking into the matter and was 5 reporting to him in some fashion, with 6 respect to it, it might be appropriate for 7 them -- it would be appropriate for them to 8 discuss that with Foster. To that extent, it 9 might be appropriate for Foster to have such 10 material. I don't know if he had such 11 material. I doubt if he had such material. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q But he may? 14 A But it might be appropriate. 15 Q So he may have had such material? 16 A I don't know one way or another. 17 Q If he had such material, he could 18 have reviewed that in his office? 19 A If he had such material, he could 20 have, but I don't know if he had such 21 material. 22 Q If he had such material, it would 272 1 have been perfectly appropriate for him to 2 store it while he's reviewing it in the safe 3 in your office? 4 A I don't know what material we're 5 really talking about right now. 6 Q FBI background material. 7 A A background report on one of the 8 people in the Travel Office? 9 Q Yes. 10 A I don't think Foster had such 11 material. The kind of things I was talking 12 about was the FBI investigation of the 13 conduct of the people in the Travel Office. 14 I don't think Foster ever asked, nor am I 15 sure it would be appropriate for him to ask 16 for a background file of somebody in the 17 Travel Office, but it might be. It might be, 18 if we're looking into that. It might be we 19 can look at their background file, if we 20 believe -- if we believe an employee, whether 21 the Travel Office or any other office of The 22 White House is conducting themself in an 273 1 improper fashion. It may well be appropriate 2 for The White House -- The White House 3 Counsel's Office, to call for their FBI 4 background report to see if there's anything 5 in there that would give us a clue as to the 6 nature of the conduct these people were 7 doing. I don't believe we ever did that, but 8 I don't think it's inappropriate. 9 Q It wouldn't have been inappropriate 10 for Foster to discuss that material with 11 other people in The White House? 12 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Under the circumstances you've just 16 described. 17 MS. GILES: Objection, vague, 18 hypothetical. 19 THE WITNESS: Under those 20 circumstances, it wouldn't be inappropriate, 21 but I don't believe it happened. In fact, 22 I'm sure it didn't happen, knowing Foster. 274 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q But it clearly would have been 3 inappropriate for Mr. Foster to discuss it 4 with people outside of The White House? 5 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 6 the question. 7 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: If you're talking -- 9 with the Justice Department, probably not. 10 You know, with any duly constituted 11 authorized authority, with respect to the 12 matter, it wouldn't inappropriate. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q I'm talking somebody like Harry 15 Thomasson. That would have been 16 inappropriate? 17 A Well, Harry Thomasson was acting as 18 consultant for The White House; he was 19 assisting The White House. I don't know if 20 that would have been inappropriate or not. I 21 just know Foster wouldn't have done anything 22 inappropriate. 275 1 Q Would it have been appropriate for 2 Foster to share that FBI background material 3 about the Travel Office with Catherine 4 Cornelius? 5 A Foster didn't share FBI background 6 material with anybody, period. That's not 7 what he would do. 8 Q Vince Foster, as you stated this 9 morning, had a very close relationship with 10 Hillary Clinton, correct? 11 A Yes, he had a close professional 12 and friendship relationship with Hillary 13 Clinton; that's correct. They were close 14 friends, and they were colleagues, close 15 professional colleagues, and they had great 16 admiration for each other. 17 Q If Hillary Clinton asked Vince 18 Foster to do something, he would have done 19 it, right? 20 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 276 1 the question. 2 THE WITNESS: He would not have 3 done anything illegal or improper, whether 4 Hillary Clinton, or Bill Clinton, or Bernie 5 Nussbuam asked him to do it. He would not 6 have done anything illegal or improper for 7 Hillary Clinton, or for Bill Clinton, or for 8 me or anybody else, for that matter. On the 9 other hand, he would act as a lawyer on 10 people's behalf and be a good lawyer on their 11 behalf. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know whether Vince Foster 14 ever met with Hillary Clinton outside of The 15 White House? 16 MS. GILES: Objection, relevance. 17 THE WITNESS: During the time we 18 were in Washington? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Yeah. 21 A I have no knowledge. The Fosters 22 and the Clintons were close friends. By the 277 1 Fosters, I mean Vince Foster and his wife 2 Lisa Foster were social acquaintances of the 3 President and the First Lady. I know the 4 Fosters were over to The White House. It 5 could be that the Clintons went over to see 6 the Fosters in their house. I mean, I don't 7 remember that right now, but the President, 8 sometimes, and Hillary went out and visited 9 somebody's house. One house they could have 10 visited, because they were good friends, was 11 the Fosters', but other than that, I know of 12 no other occasion -- maybe they were together 13 at an embassy dinner or something like that. 14 But I know of no other occasion Vince Foster 15 met with Hillary Clinton outside The White 16 House. 17 Q Do you know of any instance where 18 they met with each other alone outside of The 19 White House? 20 A No, I know of no such instance. 21 They wouldn't meet alone outside The White 22 House. 278 1 Q You were aware that Vince Foster 2 was doing work on the Clintons' personal 3 matters? 4 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 5 the question. 6 MS. GILES: Objection, vagueness. 7 THE WITNESS: Vince Foster was not 8 doing work on matters which was solely 9 personal. The matters Vince Foster was 10 working on for the Clinton was personal in 11 nature, with respect to certain things, but 12 also had official implications, such as their 13 tax returns and things like that. When it 14 comes to a President, that stuff is not 15 personal. As the President, he has to file 16 financial disclosure forms, and there are 17 other requirements the President must do, and 18 consequently, what Foster was doing for the 19 Clintons had an official element to it, even 20 if it also had a personal element to it. For 21 example, setting up a blind trust, it 22 involves their personal assets, their 279 1 personal assets, but nonetheless, it's 2 required by virtue of their official duties. 3 So Vince Foster was not acting as the 4 Clintons' personal lawyer. They had personal 5 lawyers. They had Williams & Connolly. They 6 had other personal lawyers and accountants. 7 Vince Foster was doing what a White House 8 counsel should do that would respect certain 9 personal matters that had official 10 implications or official duties. He worked 11 on those matters. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So you don't deny that Foster 14 worked on the Clintons' taxes. You're just 15 saying that was legit? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q You don't deny that Foster worked 18 on Clintons' blind trust. You're saying that 19 was legit? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q You don't know deny that Foster 22 worked on issues related to Whitewater. You 280 1 say that was legit? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q The same thing with regard to the 4 Travel Office? 5 A The Travel Office has nothing to do 6 with the Clintons, personally, at all. There 7 was no personal aspect there at all. The 8 Travel Office was because we discovered an 9 office in The White House, which wasn't 10 functioning properly. 11 Q Who was hired to replace those 12 people? The Clintons' personal friends. 13 MS. GILES: Objection, relevance. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Correct? 16 A No. I don't even think that's 17 true. I mean, I think initially, certain 18 people were brought in on an emergency basis, 19 a respected travel agency, which the Clintons 20 knew, or other people knew from Arkansas, and 21 then was replaced, you know -- 22 Q When everything hit the fan, they 281 1 were replaced? 2 A By somebody else on a more stable 3 relationship. 4 Q Correct, when it hit the fan in 5 terms of public knowledge, they were 6 replaced? 7 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: They might have been 11 replaced in any event, but when there was a 12 public outcry, yes, everybody was 13 concentrating on that, and they tried to put 14 something in that would calm the unwarranted 15 public furor. As I said earlier, that's life 16 in the big city. There was nothing improper 17 about the Travel Office situation at all, 18 including bringing in an agency from 19 Arkansas, at that point. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Were there rules in The White House 22 that you knew of about hiring friends or 282 1 relatives? 2 A It's something -- there were -- no, 3 there were no -- to my knowledge, and I think 4 I would know, there were no firm rules about 5 hiring friends and relatives. There was 6 nothing per se improper about hiring a friend 7 or relative, if that person was competent. 8 On the other hand, one recognized the 9 political and public relations implications 10 of that, so one had to be, you know, 11 relatively cautious about hiring a friend or 12 relative, and I don't think it was done very 13 often, or at all. 14 Q Now, we went through a period where 15 we talked about legitimacy of looking into 16 the backgrounds of White House employees, 17 such as the Travel Office. Do you have any 18 recollection of anyone in The White House 19 ever having looked into the personnel files 20 of the Travel Office employees? 21 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 22 the question. 283 1 THE WITNESS: I have a vague 2 recollection -- well, nobody in The White 3 House looked into the files -- the background 4 files of the Travel Office employees. I have 5 a vague recollection of a Congressional 6 committee requesting those files from The 7 White House, and the files therefore being 8 requested by The White House for transmittal 9 to this Congressional committee, but The 10 White House itself, anybody in The White 11 House itself looking into the background of 12 the Travel Office employees did not occur, as 13 far as I know. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q I show you what I'll ask the court 16 reporter to mark as the next exhibit. Before 17 I show you that, it was your understanding 18 that these kinds of issues, looking into the 19 background of individuals and their personnel 20 folders or in their FBI summary reports, 21 that's not something you did lightly, because 22 it was covered by the Privacy Act? You 284 1 understood that, correct? 2 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 THE WITNESS: We didn't look into 5 the -- the only time we look into backgrounds 6 of people was for a legitimate official 7 purpose, and there was no concerns about the 8 Privacy Act, as long as you're doing 9 something which is, you know, sanctioned by 10 law as a reason to do it. For example, you 11 know, every five years this update program, 12 you have to look into the -- that's a proper 13 purpose, whether it's a Travel Office 14 employee or counsel office employee. There's 15 nothing wrong with that. We were not 16 concerned about Privacy Act implications. We 17 were concerned about it has to be a 18 legitimate purpose for doing this. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q But you understood that Privacy Act 21 requirements applied to The White House? 22 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 285 1 the question. 2 THE WITNESS: Well, there was a 3 dispute whether or not Privacy Act 4 requirements applied to The White House. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You believed they did? 7 A I don't remember at this point what 8 position I took. I was sensitive to the fact 9 that we had a lot of information which was 10 private, which we received from time to time, 11 and obviously, that shouldn't be willy-nilly 12 disclosed, except in accordance with one's 13 duties, but I don't recall -- I don't recall 14 what conclusion I may have reached with 15 respect to whether the Privacy Act applied to 16 The White House. I think The White House has 17 taken the position the Privacy Act doesn't 18 apply to The White House. 19 Q You are a veteran of Watergate, 20 right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Not in dispute. Someone who felt 286 1 deeply and still does about issues involving 2 ethics and privacy, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q In fact, this is an issue that 5 conservative, liberals, and moderates can all 6 agree on, constitutional right to privacy and 7 one of the fundamental rights? 8 A I think privacy's important, yes. 9 Q The White House represents the 10 American people, right? 11 A Yes. 12 Q So it's your view that The White 13 House should adhere to the Privacy Act, 14 correct? 15 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 16 the question. 17 THE WITNESS: The White House 18 should act properly and ethically. The 19 Privacy Act is a specific piece of 20 legislation. Whether it covers The White 21 House or not is a question lawyers can 22 debate. If you're asking me should The White 287 1 House willy-nilly release information, 2 private information that will hurt people, 3 the answer of course is no. It has nothing 4 to do with the Privacy Act. It has to do 5 with fundamental notions of ethics. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q It was Democrats and liberals who 8 put the Privacy Act into effect, right? 9 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Much to your credit, right? 13 A If you want to give me credit, I'll 14 be glad to take it. 15 MR. MAZUR: Credit for the Privacy 16 Act? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Somebody's got to do it. Clintons 19 didn't do it. I'll give you credit, okay? 20 A I think it's undeserved credit. I 21 had nothing to do with the passage of the 22 Privacy Act. 288 1 Q You're aware, at the time that 2 Privacy Act came into effect, it was intended 3 to cover The White House? 4 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of 7 that. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you 9 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 10 the next exhibit. 11 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 12 No. 4 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q This is a memorandum which you 16 produced, correct, Mr. Nussbaum, in this 17 case? 18 MR. MAZUR: It looks like we did, 19 from the production number. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 21 MR. MAZUR: This is something we 22 got from some hearing or something. 289 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't give 2 testimony. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q This is a memorandum of 5 June 30, 1993, for John D. Podesta, assistant 6 to the President and staff secretary from 7 Mary Kutzbeck, acting director, Personnel 8 Management Division, Subject: Office 9 Personnel Folders. 10 You've seen this document before; 11 haven't you? 12 A I believe I have. Because we 13 turned it over, I would have looked at the 14 document. 15 Q In this memorandum, there's some 16 handwriting. Do you know Mary Kutzbeck? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know whose handwriting says 19 "Thanks" below? 20 A No. 21 Q It then says underneath that, 22 "Files delivered to Cliff Sloan, associate 290 1 White House counsel"? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you know whose handwriting that 4 is? 5 A No. 6 Q CF below; what does that mean? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q There's the little notation above 9 RN. Do you know whose handwriting that is? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you know who that refers to? 12 A No, not offhand. 13 Q Okay. Now the memorandum reads, 14 "Andre Oliver" -- you knew an Andre Oliver; 15 didn't you? 16 A He worked for Mac McLarty. 17 Q What did he do for Mac McLarty? 18 A Sort of an assistant to Mac 19 McLarty. He was a staff assistant. 20 Q One of McLarty's right-hand men. 21 A I don't know, right-hand man. 22 Q Left-hand man? 291 1 A When you needed something done, 2 Oliver's one of the people. He had a staff 3 of people he assigned to different projects 4 at times. 5 Q "Andre Oliver, the Chief of Staff's 6 Office, requested that I forward the official 7 personnel folders of seven White House Travel 8 Office personnel for your review." 9 A Yes. 10 Q "They are attached." Now, you knew 11 that these official personnel folders were 12 being forwarded by an Andre Oliver in and 13 around June 30, 1993? 14 A I may have; I may not have. I 15 probably did not know. 16 Q What leads you to believe, given 17 the fact you say you may or may not have, 18 that you didn't know? 19 A Because when I look at this, what 20 occurs to me -- what I remember is that -- 21 because it's a memo from John Podesta. John 22 Podesta was asked by the Chief of Staff's 292 1 Office to conduct the so-called, famous 2 Travel Office review of what happened with 3 respect to the Travel Office employees. This 4 is June 30, 1993. The review was completed 5 early in July of 1993. Podesta handled -- 6 Podesta was put in charge of the review, 7 McLarty heading up one piece and Leon 8 Panetta, who was head of OMB at the time. 9 The White House was doing an internal 10 investigation of the Travel Office matter, 11 and McLarty and Leon Panetta were the overall 12 heads of the investigation, but the staff 13 people who were going to do it were Podesta, 14 who was then staff secretary of The White 15 House and his assistant Todd Stern. So they 16 conducted an internal investigation, internal 17 review of the Travel Office matter, leading 18 to a report which was issued early in July 19 with respect to the Travel Office. 20 One of the issues that arose in 21 connection with that review was whether or 22 not The White House Counsel's Office should 293 1 participate, and one of the decisions reached 2 by the chief of staff was that The White 3 House Counsel's Office should not 4 participate. They should be informed of 5 what's going on, but they should not 6 participate, because The White House 7 Counsel's Office, particularly Mr. Kennedy, 8 was one of the people being investigated, or 9 reviewed by Podesta and by Stern, you know, 10 subject to the overall direction of McLarty 11 and Leon Panetta. So we, then, sort of 12 stepped away, because we were asked to step 13 away from that internal review, which was 14 conducted until near the end of it, when we 15 received a draft report so we can comment on 16 the internal review. I think we received 17 that draft report late June or early July. 18 That's the reason I'm saying to 19 you, Mr. Klayman, that I would not know 20 personally whether or not files were 21 requested in connection with that review, 22 personnel files, which apparently there were. 294 1 Because I think this is what those files were 2 requested in connection with that review or 3 maybe they were requested for passing on to 4 Congressional committee. But for one of 5 those reasons, they were requested for that 6 review and sent to Podesta, who was in charge 7 of that review, so I probably did not know 8 about it at the time. 9 Q Now, John Podesta, he was the 10 person that looked into all these 11 controversies? 12 A He was sort of -- 13 MR. MAZUR: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Inartfully put, scandals? 16 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: He was a staff 19 secretary. He was respected. He was a sober 20 solid guy, and he was like a trouble shooter 21 to some extent, and when this issue arose, 22 when The White House foolishly, over my 295 1 objection, determined to conduct an internal 2 review and to bend over backwards, ultimately 3 to criticize itself and to reprimand people 4 who didn't deserve reprimands, Podesta was 5 chosen to do it, and he did it. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q He was kind of the hit man? 8 A Well, he was the investigator. He 9 was the investigator, and he put together an 10 internal review, which he attempted to be 11 fair, and he was as fair as he could be, and 12 the result was the result. 13 Q He was also somebody who chaired or 14 coordinated meetings that were called the 15 Whitewater -- 16 A That was later on. He was involved 17 in that too. 18 Q Those Whitewater meetings entailed 19 any controversy? It wasn't just limited to 20 Whitewater. Anything that would come up, he 21 was kind of the troubleshooter to figure out 22 what went on, right? 296 1 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 2 THE WITNESS: He was one of the 3 participants. Other people were involved in 4 that too. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q But that group started to take on 7 significance beyond Whitewater's. Other 8 issues arose, Podesta addressed those too? 9 A Harold Ickes was significantly 10 addressing those issues. He was sort of the 11 leader of that group at that particular time. 12 Podesta was in charge, in a staff sense, in 13 putting together the staff review that I just 14 talked about, with respect to the Travel 15 Office. 16 Q So Podesta and Ickes were the one 17 who would try to fight the fires that would 18 rise on these various alleged scandals? 19 A Yes, I think that's accurate. 20 Q Their job was to figure out what 21 happened, and to determine what happened and 22 to help The White House explain what happened 297 1 to the public? 2 A Yeah, I think that's true. Other 3 people were involved too. 4 Q Who else was involved in that? 5 A I was involved, obviously. Other 6 people were involved. 7 Q You weren't involved in Filegate, 8 because you weren't there when that hit? 9 A No, not in Filegate. 10 Q Who, based on your experience, 11 would have looked at the Filegate issue, once 12 it hit in Podesta? 13 A No. Then I think the lead was with 14 The White House Counsel's Office. That's my 15 impression. 16 Q The White House Counsel's Office 17 handled that? 18 A I think so. 19 Q Now, you weren't there as White 20 House counsel at that time, correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q But if you had been there as White 298 1 House counsel, you would have told that 2 office, or you would have made sure that 3 office didn't play a role in doing a 4 fact-finding, an analysis of what went on in 5 Filegate, because, in fact, the allegations 6 concerned that office, right? 7 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form 8 of the question. 9 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q In other words, using the same 12 reasoning as on Travelgate, White House 13 Counsel's Office shouldn't have been involved 14 in that, because they were, in fact, the 15 center of the allegations? 16 A The people who were being looked at 17 at that particular point were all gone, so 18 there's nothing wrong with having The White 19 House Counsel's Office look at what happened 20 two or three years before with respect to FBI 21 files. This thing -- when the file situation 22 arose in 1996, this had been over for a 299 1 couple of years, and the people who were in 2 The White House Counsel's Office at the time 3 when this occurred, namely myself or Kennedy, 4 you know, were all, basically, gone at that 5 point. So there's nothing wrong with having 6 The White House Counsel's Office look at it. 7 But I don't know who did it. I'm not even 8 sure The White House Counsel's Office looked 9 at it. 10 Q Sally Paxton was there when you 11 were White House counsel, right? 12 A No. 13 Q Craig Livingstone was there? 14 A He was there, but he was not -- 15 Q He wasn't gone? 16 A He wasn't in The White House 17 Counsel's Office. He was in the Office of 18 Personnel Security, which reported to The 19 White House Counsel's Office. 20 Q You saw him in The White House 21 Counsel's Office physically; didn't you? 22 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 300 1 the question. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Couldn't miss him; could you? 4 A A lot of people were in The White 5 House Counsel's Office from time to time, but 6 there's nothing improper about The White 7 House Counsel's Office investigating what 8 happened two or three years before, if that's 9 what happened. 10 Q Are you saying there's no 11 professional interest in continuity in an 12 administration in a particular sector of The 13 White House? 14 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 15 the question. 16 MS. GILES: Object to form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Let's say, hypothetically, that 19 there's an allegation that Wachtell Lipton, 20 years before you became a partner, engaged in 21 improper conduct, and you were then assigned 22 to look into Wachtell Lipton's improper 301 1 conduct. That wouldn't be right; would it? 2 A It would be. I think -- no, it's 3 not appropriate for me to look at my own 4 conduct, but it's appropriate for me to look 5 at the conduct that occurred prior to the 6 time I was there. 7 Q But based on your considerable 8 experience in investigations, and criminal 9 law and civil proceedings, to have the entity 10 that is accused of violating the law 11 investigate itself, that's a formula for 12 cover-up; isn't it? 13 A No. White House Counsel's Office 14 is a group of lawyers. There's nothing wrong 15 with a group of lawyers looking into the 16 conduct of a prior group of lawyers who are 17 no longer working in The White House. We're 18 not talking about some sort of entity 19 long-standing, or some corporate entity or 20 even law firm. 21 Q Based on human nature, they're 22 going to turn their former colleagues in? 302 1 Does that make sense to you? 2 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, it makes sense 4 for lawyers to do the right thing, and they 5 weren't even colleagues. They weren't even 6 there at the time. Did something wrong, they 7 should turn them? 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q They should, but lawyers frequently 10 don't? 11 MR. MAZUR: Object to form. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I think most 13 lawyers do the right thing. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q There has been a decline in ethics 16 in the legal profession, based on age, has 17 there not? You've experienced that. 18 MR. MAZUR: Based on age? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Different generations, the people 21 of your generation had a lot more ethics than 22 younger generation? 303 1 A I'm not sure that's true. I think 2 there's a lot more lawyers in this country 3 now, than there were when I became a lawyer. 4 There were 250,000 lawyers in the United 5 States when I became a lawyer. There are 6 over a million lawyers now. You're going to 7 get a lot more problems. But I'm not sure my 8 generation was any more ethical than the new 9 generation. 10 MS. GILES: We appreciate that. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 12 video record at 3:36. 13 (Recess) 14 THE VIDEOGRPAHER: We're back on 15 video record at 3:37. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Getting back to Exhibit 4, second 18 paragraph, "The contents of these records are 19 covered by the Privacy Act of 1974, have 20 restricted use, and should be protected 21 carefully. Please keep these folders in a 22 locked place when not in use. Their contents 304 1 should not be disclosed to anyone, unless 2 they demonstrate an official need." 3 That's a correct statement; isn't 4 it? 5 MR. MAZUR: What's a correct 6 statement? You read it correctly? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. Well, it's 8 correct as Mr. Nussbaum understood it 9 legally, when you were White House counsel. 10 THE WITNESS: I do not know if 11 these records are covered by the Privacy Act. 12 They may be, or they may not be. They should 13 be protected carefully, I agree with that. 14 They should not be disclosed to anyone, as I 15 said earlier, unless they demonstrate an 16 official need. I agree with that. I agree 17 that the instruction she's given him are 18 sensible and correct. Whether legally 19 they're covered by the Privacy Act, I don't 20 know. They may be. She may be right; she 21 may be wrong. I don't know. People 22 sometimes put things in memos which are 305 1 wrong, when they reach a legal conclusion 2 about something. Certainly, she's absolutely 3 right that contents should not be disclosed 4 to anyone, unless they demonstrate a official 5 need. That I know she's absolutely right. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q That requirement is contained in 8 the Privacy Act, right? 9 MR. MAZUR: Which requirement? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q That there should be an official 12 need, before someone can see a personnel 13 record or FBI record. 14 A At this moment, I'm not familiar 15 with the specific provisions of the Privacy 16 Act. 17 Q That would be a routine use under 18 the Privacy Act, correct? 19 A I haven't familiarized myself with 20 that before I came down here today. 21 Q This document is written on the 22 letterhead of the Executive Office of the 306 1 President, correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q You had this document in your 4 possession? 5 A Yes, we had this document in our 6 possession, which I believe we obtained after 7 this matter of obtaining FBI files emerged, 8 and this document became a public document. 9 This is not a document I removed with me from 10 The White House when I left The White House. 11 I never saw this document when I was in The 12 White House. I saw this document only in 13 late 199 -- in 1996, when the file issue 14 arose, and we started collecting documents 15 which became public to prepare me for 16 testimony that I was going to give to the 17 House of Representatives. 18 Q You're aware that Judge Lamberth 19 has made a ruling in this case, that the 20 Privacy Act applies to the Executive Office 21 of the President? 22 A I'm not aware. 307 1 Q Have you read his decision? 2 A No, I have not. 3 Q You were aware that we're 4 proceeding here, in part, under the Privacy 5 Act? 6 A If that's what you say. I have no 7 doubt that you're speaking accurately. 8 Q When did this document come to your 9 attention? 10 A In 1996, when we were preparing -- 11 when we were trying to gather the facts with 12 respect to the file matter. 13 Q You never told anybody, once you 14 saw this document, this document's wrong? 15 The Privacy Act doesn't apply to The White 16 House? 17 MR. MAZUR: Why don't you -- 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can answer. 20 A I never told anybody. 21 Q You don't know of anybody else who 22 did either? 308 1 A I never told anybody. 2 MR. MAZUR: Did what? 3 THE WITNESS: This document's 4 wrong; the Privacy Act doesn't apply to The 5 White House. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan, do you 7 know why we've never gotten this document 8 from The White House Executive Office of the 9 President? 10 MR. GILLIGAN: I don't know that 11 you haven't. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you know why this 13 document was never made available to the 14 court in all the various pleadings, 15 particularly, when The White House filed its 16 motion to dismiss, based on the fact that the 17 Privacy Act didn't apply? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: I'd be happy to 19 explain a number of things to you about this 20 document. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd just like to know 22 why it's not in the documents provided to the 309 1 court. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Because it's 3 irrelevant on the arguments we made in the 4 report. As to whether or not we produced it 5 previously, we may well have. I cannot 6 recall from memory the sum total of the 25 7 to 30,000 pages of documents we provided to 8 you. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: We'd appreciate it if 10 you'd advise the court of whether you've ever 11 produced this document in this case. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm sure you would 13 appreciate that, Mr. Klayman. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Not you personally, 15 but your client. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, if you 17 understood what you were talking about, you 18 would know that this document is irrelevant 19 to the legal position we have taken in this 20 case, regarding the applicability of the 21 Privacy Act to the activities of The White 22 House Counsel's Office and The White House 310 1 Office of Personnel Security. We'll be happy 2 to explain it to the court, if necessary. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q It says below here, doesn't it, 5 "Files delivered to Cliff Stone" -- 6 A Sloan. 7 Q "Sloan, associate White House 8 counsel"? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Cliff Sloan did work for The White 11 House counsel? 12 A Yes. He wasn't one of the original 13 people in The White House Counsel's Office, 14 and he just arrived at around this time, and 15 it may well be that he was assisting Podesta 16 and Stern, because he wasn't around at the 17 time of the Travel Office situation, which 18 occurred, you know, earlier. He may have 19 been assisting them, and consequently, for 20 that reason, copies of the files were 21 delivered to him too. But I'm not positive 22 of that. That's really just a possibility, 311 1 as to why they were delivered. 2 Q Craig Livingstone was part of The 3 White House Counsel's Office? 4 A No, he was not. 5 MR. MAZUR: Objection. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 7 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 8 Exhibit 5. 9 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 10 No. 5 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q It's a document dated 14 October 9, 1993. Mr. Nussbaum, you've seen 15 this before; haven't you? It says, "Kennedy 16 needs to know that Tony Marceca counts in the 17 counsel's count. Craig is in Counsel's 18 Office. All others are in management 19 administration." You've seen this before; 20 haven't you? 21 A I have not. 22 Q This is a document that you 312 1 produced; isn't it? 2 MR. MAZUR: No. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked him the 4 question. 5 MR. MAZUR: It doesn't have our 6 production number on it. It has somebody 7 else's production number. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You're giving him 9 testimony. It's inappropriate. Certify it. 10 Ask you to stop that, Mr. Mazur. 11 THE WITNESS: Obviously, we didn't 12 produce it. Why would you ask me if I 13 produced it, when you know we didn't produce 14 it? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q I didn't know that, and I still 17 don't know that, based upon your counsel's 18 having made that statement. 19 A In any event, I've never seen it, 20 and I don't believe we produced it. 21 Q From your prior testimony, you 22 stated that you played a role in vetting 313 1 Louis Freeh for his appointment as FBI 2 director? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Before he became FBI director, was 5 Mr. Freeh a Republican or a Democratic 6 appointee; do you know? 7 A He was a Republican appointee. 8 Q He was a judge in New York, right? 9 A Yes. He was appointed by 10 Republicans to the bench, and he was -- I 11 think at the time of his appointment, he was 12 registered as a Republican in his early 13 years, and then registered as an independent. 14 I don't believe he ever registered as a 15 Democratic, but he was a Republican appointee 16 to the bench. 17 Q Now you spoke with Hillary Clinton 18 about his appointment; didn't you? 19 A No. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 21 of the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I 314 1 ever did. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q She had an input in that 4 appointment; didn't she? 5 A She had no input in that 6 appointment. If any -- no, she had no input 7 on the appointment. 8 Q She certainly had an input in the 9 efforts of the Administration after 1992, the 10 elections, to having appointed a female 11 attorney general? 12 A Yes. 13 Q In fact, she was quite adamant; she 14 wanted a female attorney general? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: Not on my watch, she 18 wasn't that adamant. The initial appointment 19 of Zoey Barry took place prior to my becoming 20 White House counsel, and I had nothing to do 21 with seeking out or selecting Zoey Barry. 22 MS. GILES: I'm going to object and 315 1 instruct the witness not to answer about the 2 substance of the conversations about Zoey 3 Barry. It's irrelevant. It's privileged. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I think what she is means is, don't 6 give us anything about her background, but 7 you can tell us the role Mrs. Clinton played 8 in recommending a female attorney general. 9 MS. GILES: The substance of the 10 conversations of White House advisors for 11 privilege, I instruct the witness not to 12 answer. 13 THE WITNESS: I understand what 14 you're saying. I'm not going to give the 15 substance of the conversations. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I'm not agreeing with Ms. Giles' 18 objection. I'm saying, let's start with 19 that. 20 MR. MAZUR: With what? What's the 21 question? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 316 1 Q Mrs. Clinton's role in pushing for 2 a female attorney general. 3 A I don't know actually, now that I 4 think about it, if Ms. Clinton pushed for a 5 female attorney general. I don't know what 6 role she played with respect to Zoe Barry, 7 because I wasn't involved. I do know that 8 with respect to Janet Reno, she had a minimal 9 role. Vince Foster and I had a major role, 10 with respect to the appointment of Janet 11 Reno. Hillary Clinton had a minimal role. 12 Hillary Clinton was already involved in 13 healthcare, and indeed, Hillary Clinton did 14 not push for the appointment of a female 15 attorney general when we were choosing Janet 16 Reno. We were looking for a potential female 17 attorney general as a result of discussions 18 with the President, not with Hillary Clinton. 19 But as the search went on, we broadened the 20 search to consider possible male candidates 21 as well, and if we had -- and indeed, we 22 considered at one point, right up to the 317 1 verge of appointing a potential male 2 candidate as attorney general, because this 3 is publicly -- a lot of this is publicly out, 4 but ultimately, we decided to recommend Janet 5 Reno to the President, and the President 6 appointed Janet Reno. 7 Q The President told you Hillary 8 wanted a female attorney general? 9 MS. GILES: Objection. 10 Conversations with the President are off 11 limit. Those are privileged. Do you want to 12 make a proffer as to relevance? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't. 14 MS. GILES: My objection stands. I 15 instruct the witness not to answer as 16 conversations with his President -- 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying 18 everything the President does? 19 MS. GILES: I'm saying 20 appointments, I instruct the witness not to 21 answer. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask about an 318 1 individual. I asked generically about a 2 gender. 3 MS. GILES: My instruction stands. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: The Supreme Court's 5 gone over the President's prerogative, and 6 his privilege and everything else. You're 7 really treading on improper ground here, 8 Ms. Giles. 9 MR. MAZUR: He's not going to 10 answer the question, but if you get it 11 straightened out between the two of you, 12 we'll deal with it. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. It's a 14 shame -- 15 MR. MAZUR: I will agree that if 16 you prevail, it will have been a shame if you 17 prevail. 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- 19 MS. GILES: There's no question 20 pending. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: I didn't understand 22 the pun. 319 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I just want to get 2 the answer to the question. 3 MR. MAZUR: He's not going to 4 answer that question. Even if you look at 5 him and smile, he's not going to answer the 6 question. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. Nussbaum, do you remember a day 9 that you were visited by Special Agent 10 Sculimbrene? 11 A I know, the only time I remember 12 meeting with special agent Sculimbrene and 13 the other special agent Aldrich, I think his 14 name was Gary Aldrich, was fairly early when 15 we came into the Administration, and either 16 somebody from EOB said I really should meet 17 with the FBI agents who are assisting The 18 White House Counsel's Office, thought it 19 would be a good idea if I met with the 20 agents. I said I'd be delighted to meet with 21 the FBI agents, and I think it was 22 Sculimbrene and Aldrich, I assume, because 320 1 they're the ones assigned, although I don't 2 have an independent memory. We met in my 3 office, and I shook hands with them, and I 4 told them about my great admiration for the 5 FBI. And I was a criminal prosecutor, and I 6 looked forward to working with them, and I'm 7 sure we would have a good working 8 relationship, because I was always so high on 9 the professional competence of the FBI. So I 10 remember that meeting. 11 Q Are you still high on their 12 professional competence? 13 A On Sculimbrene and Aldrich? 14 Q No, the FBI. 15 MR. MAZUR: FBI, generally? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Yes. 18 A I'm still high on the competency of 19 the FBI. I'm not high on the competence of 20 the two agents I met with. In any case, the 21 only other connections I might have had with 22 Sculimbrene or Aldrich, one of them, is when 321 1 background checks were done. From time to 2 time, people would come to me -- the agents 3 would come to me and ask me what I knew about 4 this person who had been hired. Remember, 5 people had been hired, and then we did FBI 6 background checks. So I may have met with 7 Sculimbrene in connection with his doing a 8 background check of various employees. 9 MR. MAZUR: Do you remember doing 10 that? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait. Wait. Wait. 12 Can you stop, Mr. Mazur, please? That is 13 inappropriate. I mean, you're exacerbating 14 the issue here. 15 MR. MAZUR: I'm not sure what the 16 issue is. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. The 18 issue is not injecting anything with your 19 client. Your client's an experienced trial 20 lawyer. He certainly can answer questions. 21 THE WITNESS: Next question. Go 22 on. I answered it. 322 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You remember meeting with Special 3 Agent Sculimbrene about Craig Livingstone, 4 correct? 5 A No. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Case in point. 7 Certify it. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 9 meeting with him about Craig Livingstone. 10 It's possible I did, but I don't remember it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q In the ordinary course, you would 13 have met with him about Craig Livingstone, 14 because Livingstone worked under you? 15 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form 16 of the question. 17 THE WITNESS: No, not necessarily. 18 I may not have met with him with respect to 19 every employee who worked under me. I may 20 have met with him on some, and not others, 21 but I have no memory of meeting him with 22 respect to any specific employee. 323 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Since you don't have any memory of 3 having met with him with any specific 4 employee -- 5 A With respect to any specific 6 employee. 7 Q You can't refute anything an FBI 8 agent may have said that you said to the 9 agent? 10 A Oh, of course I can. 11 MR. MAZUR: Object to form. 12 THE WITNESS: Of course I can. Of 13 course I can, because I can't remember any 14 specific meeting with agent Sculimbrene with 15 respect to any specific employee. I know 16 things that I didn't say and wouldn't say, 17 because it's not true and not within my 18 knowledge. So I can easily reject something 19 an agent said I said with respect to a 20 specific employee, if I know I didn't say 21 such a thing. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 324 1 Q You sometimes say things off the 2 cuff; don't you? 3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Do I sometimes say 6 things off the cuff? Not to agents of the 7 FBI. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Sometimes you're sarcastic, 10 correct? 11 A Not to agents of the FBI who I 12 don't know. 13 Q Sometimes you're facetious? 14 A Not to agents of the FBI who I 15 don't know, not in the course of my 16 employment. Normally. 17 Q So you wouldn't say something you 18 didn't mean? 19 A That's correct. I wouldn't say 20 something I didn't mean, certainly not during 21 a background check. 22 Q Now, you are aware that Special 325 1 Agent Sculimbrene prepared a report where he 2 wrote that you told him that Craig 3 Livingstone came highly recommended by 4 Hillary Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 6 of the question. 7 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm aware that a 10 document exists -- a document exists which 11 contains that purported statement, which 12 apparently was prepared by Agent Sculimbrene. 13 That's what I'm aware of. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 15 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 16 Exhibit 6. 17 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 18 No. 6 was marked for 19 identification.) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You've seen this document before; 22 haven't you? 326 1 A Yes. 2 Q Is this the document that you're 3 referring to? 4 A Yes. 5 Q "Bernard Nussbuam, counsel to the 6 President, advised that he has known the 7 appointee for a period of time, that he has 8 been employed in the new administration," 9 we're talking about Craig Livingstone. "He 10 had come highly recommended to him by Hillary 11 Clinton, who has known his mother for a 12 longer period of time." 13 You're denying you said that? 14 A I am denying I said that 15 categorically. I never said such a thing to 16 Dennis Sculimbrene or anybody else. It is a 17 total falsehood that I said such a thing. I 18 knew no such thing. Is that clear? 19 Q Now, simply because you knew no 20 such thing, doesn't mean that, in fact, it 21 isn't true, correct? 22 MR. MAZUR: He said this to 327 1 Sculimbrene? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mazur, you're 3 really digging yourself a ditch. 4 MR. MAZUR: I'm objecting to the 5 form of the question. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, just object. 7 THE WITNESS: It isn't true. It 8 isn't true. Oh, are we still on? Go on. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q What I'm saying is, because you 11 never said any such thing, doesn't mean that 12 the fact independently isn't true? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 14 of the question. 15 THE WITNESS: Just because I never 16 said such a thing doesn't mean, necessarily, 17 the fact isn't true, but it happens in this 18 case the fact isn't true. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You testified that Livingstone was 21 hired through Kennedy, correct? 22 A Yes, through Kennedy and Foster, 328 1 after having come over from the inaugural, 2 you know, to work in The White House and 3 parked himself in the Office of Personnel 4 Security. 5 Q You don't know whether or not, one 6 way or the other, Hillary Clinton didn't 7 highly recommend Craig Livingstone to either 8 of them, Foster or Kennedy? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 10 of the question. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A I know that they didn't recommend 14 him -- that she didn't recommend him to 15 Foster or Kennedy, because Foster or Kennedy 16 never told me she recommended them to them, 17 and they would have told me. Hillary Clinton 18 didn't know Craig Livingstone's mother. This 19 whole thing is nonsensical, as it's been from 20 the beginning. Another phantom. 21 Q Phantom of the Opera? 22 A Correct, Phantom of the Opera. 329 1 Q So you're telling me that Kennedy 2 and Foster would tell you everything they 3 were doing? 4 A They would tell me if somebody had 5 been recommended for a position which 6 reported to The White House Counsel's Office 7 by Mrs. Clinton. That's something they would 8 tell me. They never told me that. They 9 didn't -- they never mentioned that when we 10 discussed Livingstone. It is patently clear 11 that she did not know Livingstone. She 12 didn't know Livingstone's mother. She didn't 13 recommend Livingstone. 14 Q So if Kennedy, based on your 15 relationship with him, had ordered someone to 16 load FBI files up on White House computer at 17 Hillary Clinton's request, he would have told 18 you? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 20 of the question. 21 THE WITNESS: Kennedy would not 22 have loaded White House files into -- FBI 330 1 files, rather, into a computer at Hillary 2 Clinton's request or anybody's request. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Let me ask you this. 5 A Bill Kennedy is an honest guy. He 6 wouldn't do it if Hillary Clinton told him to 7 do it. He wouldn't do it if Bernie Nussbuam 8 told him, but if I told him something which 9 was illegal and wrongful, he would tell me to 10 jump in the lake. He would tell it to 11 Hillary Clinton too. He would tell it to 12 Bill Clinton. 13 Q Is he still listening to you? 14 A We are in touch from time to time. 15 We talk. He's a friend. 16 Q You've talked to him about this 17 lawsuit, haven't you? 18 A The only conversations I've had 19 about this lawsuit with him is it's too bad 20 that they're chasing this phantom, and he 21 should get a lawyer to make sure he's well 22 represented. 331 1 Q He call you when he got a subpoena 2 in this case? 3 A No, I don't know if he called me 4 when he got a subpoena. I was out in Little 5 Rock last year. I had to make a speech out 6 there, and I saw him, and we chatted, and 7 this lawsuit, you know, the fact that he was 8 testifying, or we were sued, or I was sued. 9 Q Did you talk to him after he 10 testified? 11 A I don't believe so. It's possible. 12 I don't believe so. I know we didn't talk 13 about the substance of his testimony. 14 Q Did he tell you whether I asked him 15 whether he had Republican files on his table, 16 he choked? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 18 of the question. 19 MS. GILES: Objection. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q He never told you that? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 332 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: He never told me 3 that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Right now, Mr. Livingstone -- 6 excuse me. 7 A My name is Nussbuam. 8 Q . Nussbaum, if we're able to prove 9 in this case that Kennedy ordered people that 10 worked with him to load up FBI files on the 11 White House computer, are you willing to take 12 responsibility for Kennedy? 13 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 THE WITNESS: Kennedy did not order 16 anybody to load up FBI files on a White House 17 computer for any improper purpose. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q That's not my question. My 20 question is, if I can prove that in this 21 case, will you take responsibility for that 22 as well? 333 1 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 2 the question. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Please respond. 7 A Would I take responsibility? It's 8 like saying, if Kennedy committed a murder, 9 will you take responsibility for that murder? 10 If I can prove to you -- you know, Kennedy 11 didn't commit a murder, so -- I just know he 12 didn't commit a murder. 13 Q You're so certain? 14 A Yes, I'm so certain. 15 Q You're willing to stipulate now 16 that if we have a jury verdict that Kennedy 17 did these things, that you'll be included in 18 that verdict, joint and severally liable with 19 him? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I object, 21 Mr. Klayman, this deposition is for taking 22 testimony. 334 1 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 THE WITNESS: People are legally 4 responsible for their own acts, and if 5 Kennedy did anything improper, he's 6 responsible for his own conduct, but he 7 didn't do anything improper. He didn't do 8 anything improper with respect to FBI files. 9 I didn't do anything improper, and you're not 10 going to get any jury verdict against 11 anybody. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Before the President admitted it, 14 you wouldn't have known he did anything 15 improper with Monica Lewinsky either; did 16 you? 17 MS. GILES: Objection. 18 MR. MAZUR: I think Monica's beyond 19 the scope of this. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know 21 what the President did with Monica Lewinsky. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 335 1 Q You could never have imagined that; 2 could you? 3 A I was surprised. 4 Q Before you learned that, before the 5 President admitted that, you didn't think the 6 President was capable of that; did you? 7 A No, I didn't think he would conduct 8 himself with an intern in The White House in 9 that fashion. No, I didn't think so. 10 MS. GILES: Remind counsel we have 11 a court order on the relevance of the 12 Lewinsky matter. It's out of bounds. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Not in the context in 14 which I asked the question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q So just to be clear, it was Kennedy 17 who hired Livingston, not Hillary Clinton? 18 A Hillary Clinton did not hire 19 Livingstone. Kennedy made a decision to keep 20 Livingstone on in the position he was acting 21 as, as head of the Office of Personnel 22 Security. In that sense, he hired 336 1 Livingstone, by deciding -- by recommending 2 that he be kept on. He recommended to 3 Foster, and Foster and he agreed he should be 4 kept on. They informed me of that decision, 5 and I approved the decision. 6 Q That he be made permanent? 7 A That he be made permanent, correct, 8 in that area. 9 Q Therefore he was hired? 10 A Therefore he was hired; that's 11 right. 12 Q I'm going to read you testimony. 13 If you'd like to see it, I'll show it to 14 anybody here. We don't have a bunch of 15 copies. This is Kennedy's testimony on 16 October 15, 1998. I asked him -- 17 MS. GILES: What's the page? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: 206. 19 MR. MAZUR: Hold it just a second. 20 Do you have it here? 21 MS. GILES: Yes, I do. 22 MR. MAZUR: Okay. 337 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Line 9, it's a question I asked him 3 in Little Rock. "What do you know about how 4 Mr. Livingstone was hired? 5 "Answer: Mr. Livingstone was 6 identified to me as the individual to be 7 considered for head of The White House 8 Personnel Security Office when I arrived at 9 The White House. 10 "Question: Right. How was he 11 hired? 12 "Answer: I don't know how he came 13 to be in that position." 14 Mr. Kennedy's testimony is false, 15 correct? 16 A No, not false. As I just told you, 17 Mr. Livingstone was in that position when 18 Kennedy came to The White House. Kennedy 19 then determined that this position would be 20 made permanent after working with him for a 21 little while. He didn't know how he 22 originally came into that position. That's 338 1 the point. How he got there. He was 2 there -- Livingstone was there before 3 Kennedy. Kennedy didn't put him into the 4 position. But Kennedy did make the 5 recommendation that his -- to use your 6 language, that his tenure in that position be 7 made permanent. 8 Q You don't know who put him in that 9 position, correct? 10 MR. MAZUR: Which position? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The position he was in before he 13 was made permanent. 14 A He came over -- what I now believe 15 is, he came over as a result -- he was 16 recommended by people in the campaign or on 17 the inauguration to come over and work in The 18 White House. He spoke to people in The White 19 House, Christine Varney, who recommended him. 20 He spoke perhaps to Cheryl Mills at our 21 office, and he sort of was directed to that 22 position, you know, either by himself, or 339 1 perhaps by Cheryl, or by somebody like that 2 in the office. Then he sort of -- but he 3 wasn't given the position, because we had no 4 counsel overseeing the Office of Personnel 5 Security, when that counsel came. That 6 counsel was Kennedy. He was in the position 7 at that particular point, and then Kennedy 8 made the decision along with Foster, and 9 ultimately with me, to keep him on. 10 Q Maggie Williams played a role in 11 having him put in that position? 12 A To my knowledge, she did not, and 13 to my knowledge, Hillary Clinton had no role 14 in that also. 15 Q Maggie Williams gave money to his 16 legal defense fund. You know about that; 17 don't you? 18 A The answer is. I don't know about 19 that, but it's a kind act on her part. 20 Q You're aware that federal employees 21 can't take money from the public? 22 MS. GILES: Objection. 340 1 THE WITNESS: Am I aware that 2 federal employees can't take money from the 3 public? 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Right. It's called a bribe. 6 MS. GILES: Objection, form. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm aware federal 8 employees can't take bribes. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You're aware they can't take money 11 from the public? 12 A In what form are you talking about? 13 It's vague. I'm aware they can't take 14 bribes. There's all sorts of acts, 15 gratuities, bribes, things like that. 16 Q You're aware that federal 17 government Officials can't take anything of 18 value from the American people while they're 19 federal officials? 20 A As a general matter, I guess that's 21 correct, yes. 22 Q That would apply to legal defense 341 1 funds too? 2 A I'm not sure it does apply to legal 3 defense funds. 4 Q Do you know of any other President 5 having a legal defense fund? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you know of any other 8 administration where some of their employees 9 had legal defense funds? 10 A No. 11 Q You never had one; did you? 12 A No. 13 Q Probably need one, right? 14 A No. 15 Q You are aware that Craig 16 Livingstone visited The White House 17 residence? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 19 of that question. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A I don't know. I'm not aware of 342 1 that offhand. There may be instances where 2 he did, but I'm not aware of it. 3 Q If you were to learn that, that 4 would surprise you; wouldn't it? 5 A No. If there was an official 6 reason for him to go over, it's possible, you 7 know. 8 Q You're aware that he frequently 9 visited The White House residence? 10 A I'm not aware of that at all. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 12 of that question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You are aware that Craig 15 Livingstone's Office of Personnel Security 16 kept a log of when they took files out of the 17 office, FBI files and materials? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 21 you're referring to, at this point. I think 22 there was a log of materials put in the safe, 343 1 or not put in the safe, in the Office of 2 Personnel Security. I've heard about that, 3 or read about that in connection with the 4 files hearing, but I'm not aware of what 5 you're talking about. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So you really didn't have any 8 knowledge as to whether or not that office 9 kept a sign-out sheet for FBI materials that 10 were taken out? 11 A I'm not aware of that. 12 Q It would have made sense if they 13 had one though; wouldn't it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q When you're dealing with sensitive 16 material? 17 A Yes. 18 Q That would be standard operating 19 procedure? 20 A Maybe. 21 Q You're aware that log had a gap in 22 it of six months, an unexplained gap? 344 1 A I'm not aware of that. 2 Q Never heard that? 3 A Never heard that. 4 Q You heard of the 18-minute gap of 5 President Nixon; didn't you? 6 A Heard about that, yes. 7 Q In fact, you're an expert on that? 8 A I dealt with the tapes, the Nixon 9 tapes. I don't know if I'm an expert on it. 10 Q Now, with your considerable 11 experience and expertise, if you'd been White 12 House counsel and learned that there was a 13 six-month gap in the log, you would have 14 pretty suspicious; wouldn't you? 15 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't think a gap 17 in any series of documents is a good thing. 18 Documents should be kept in their regular 19 order. If there's a gap, there should be an 20 explanation for a gap. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Based on your experience as a 345 1 criminal prosecutor, criminal defense lawyer, 2 renowned civil litigator if you saw a 3 six-month gap in a log like that, given the 4 nature of White House security matters, you'd 5 be asking a lot of questions; wouldn't you? 6 A Yeah, I'd call for further inquiry, 7 if there was such a gap. 8 Q Anybody in The White House ever ask 9 for such an inquiry? 10 A No. 11 Q You never discuss that with 12 Kennedy? 13 A No, I don't know if there was any 14 such gap. 15 Q When you talked to Kennedy, did you 16 talk to him about Judicial Watch? 17 A No. 18 Q Larry Klayman? 19 A No. 20 Q Judge Lamberth? 21 A No. 22 Q Any of the other defendants? 346 1 A Hillary Clinton's a defendant. I 2 might have mentioned Hillary Clinton, but 3 I -- 4 Q What did he say about Hillary 5 Clinton? 6 A Nothing in connection with the 7 case. I hope she's okay or something like 8 that. 9 Q He never told you that she was 10 getting a bum rap; did he? 11 A Not in connection with this matter 12 particularly, you know. Yeah, he's told me 13 she's getting a bum rap, but this is 14 generally. We didn't talk about her as a 15 defendant in this case. 16 Q Not with regard to this case? 17 A I think she is getting a bum rap, 18 but we didn't talk about that. 19 Q You said previously that you don't 20 have a high regard for Sculimbrene or 21 Aldrich, correct? 22 A Well, now, I don't, that's correct. 347 1 Q But you didn't have any reason to 2 doubt their honesty when they worked in The 3 White House; did you? 4 A When I worked in The White House, I 5 didn't have any reason to doubt their 6 honesty. 7 Q Do you know of anything they did 8 that was alleged to be improper? 9 A Not at the time, no. Now they've 10 written things and said things which are 11 totally false, so that's why I have a low 12 regard for them. 13 Q Did you ever discuss Aldrich with 14 Stephanopoulos? 15 A No. 16 Q Are you aware that after 17 Sculimbrene's memo was made public, this memo 18 that -- 19 A Yes, I know the memo. 20 Q About you, that three FBI agents 21 were sent to his house? 22 A I've read that. 348 1 Q Have you received that information 2 from any other source? 3 A No. 4 Q Are you aware those three FBI 5 agents were sent by the FBI? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: Just what I read. I 9 read that he was questioned by FBI agents 10 with respect to that memo, which is totally 11 logical, because the memo contains an 12 absolute falsehood. So I would think his 13 employer would want to send somebody to 14 question him. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Were you aware that those FBI 17 agents were not sent through the Independent 18 Counsel's Office, who then had jurisdiction, 19 but were sent by the Justice Department 20 itself? 21 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 22 the question. 349 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware who 2 sent them. I'm aware he was questioned. I'm 3 just aware of what I read. I'm not even 4 aware that he was questioned. I read that he 5 was questioned by FBI agents with respect to 6 that memo, which is totally unsurprising to 7 me, which I indicated, because the memo is 8 false. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You're aware that those three FBI 11 agents were sent at the direction of Howard 12 Shapiro at the FBI? 13 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: I've read things to 15 that effect, I believe, but I have no 16 independent knowledge. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Based upon your considerable 19 experience in criminal law and procedure and 20 your knowledge of the Independent Counsel, 21 which you had to deal with at The White 22 House, it was completely inappropriate for 350 1 Shapiro to send those three FBI agents when 2 Judge Starr had jurisdiction at that time? 3 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 MS. GILES: Objection. Assumes 6 facts not in evidence. 7 THE WITNESS: Actually, I think it 8 was totally appropriate, because if an agency 9 finds out that it's agents are filing reports 10 which have been seriously called into 11 question as to their accuracy, that they 12 conduct their own investigation to determine 13 what's going on with respect to this 14 particular agent, who's filing a report which 15 contains totally false statements. I think 16 you would do it in your office, if you found 17 somebody filing false reports in your office, 18 and I think the FBI should do it when it 19 happens in their office. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q So it was quite legitimate for the 22 FBI, without the knowledge of the Independent 351 1 Counsel, to send those agents? 2 A Perhaps they should have called the 3 Independent Counsel. In my opinion, it was 4 quite legitimate. 5 Q Would it be appropriate if those 6 three agents threatened Agent Sculimbrene? 7 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think 9 it's appropriate for anybody to threaten 10 anybody else. I think it's appropriate to 11 ask him questions about the facts and 12 circumstances as to how that memo came into 13 being. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Would it be appropriate, based on 16 your experience, if those three agents went 17 to Sculimbrene's house for the purpose of 18 trying to chill his testimony? 19 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 20 the question. 21 THE WITNESS: I think that would be 22 inappropriate. 352 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Would it be appropriate if they 3 went to his house and didn't tell him he had 4 a right of counsel? 5 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 6 the question. 7 THE WITNESS: That's an interesting 8 legal issue. I don't know if they have to 9 tell him he has the right to legal counsel. 10 They're investigating their own employee. I 11 don't think he was the subject of an 12 investigation at that point. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Would it be appropriate if they 15 didn't identify themselves as to whom they 16 worked for? 17 A Oh, I think they should identify 18 themselves, who they worked for. I agree 19 with you on that one. 20 Q Now, you don't know whether or not 21 it was Hillary Clinton that asked the FBI to 22 send those agents to Sculimbrene house; do 353 1 you? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: It is absolutely 5 inconceivable that Hillary Clinton sent those 6 FBI agents to Sculimbrene. It's another 7 phantom. It's another fantasy, but continue. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you aware that William Kennedy 10 testified about his concerns about Craig 11 Livingstone's character? 12 A I don't know what you're referring 13 to. I'm not aware of such testimony. 14 Q Did you ever discuss that with 15 Kennedy? 16 A No, I never did. 17 Q Are you aware that Kennedy 18 testified that he considered letting 19 Livingstone go? 20 A I'm not aware of that. 21 Q That was never brought to your 22 attention? 354 1 A I don't believe -- I think I would 2 remember something like that. I don't 3 remember him ever bringing to my attention 4 that he was considering letting Craig 5 Livingstone go. He might have considered it, 6 for all I know, and discussed it with Foster, 7 which is sort of the natural thing to do in 8 my office at that time, and unless they 9 agreed to do it -- they wouldn't have let him 10 go without coming to me. If they both 11 resolved the issue, then they wouldn't come 12 to me. But if they have an internal 13 discussion with Foster about letting 14 Livingstone go, I don't know. I don't 15 remember it ever being brought to me or ever 16 hearing about it. 17 Q You testified earlier that Leon 18 Panetta played a role in investigating the 19 Travel Office matter? 20 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: He was appointed by 22 The White House. He and McLarty were 355 1 appointed to head -- to make a final review 2 and make recommendations with respect to look 3 into and determine whether or not The White 4 House handled the Travel Office matter in a 5 proper manner, and he was a respected 6 individual, and he and McLarty together were 7 appointed to head that review, using Podesta 8 to do the actual staff work. Podesta, as I 9 said, taught Stern. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You're aware that Panetta also 12 looked into the Filegate controversy? 13 A Did Panetta look into the Filegate 14 controversy? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I'm not aware of that. I don't 17 know. 18 Q Do you have any information about 19 the computer that Deborah Gorham was working 20 on being transferred from the West Wing to 21 the OEOB? 22 A I don't have knowledge of that. 356 1 Q Do you have any information as to 2 whether that computer was subsequently used 3 by Betsy Pond? 4 A No, I have no knowledge of that. 5 Q You don't have any knowledge as to 6 whether or not Betsy Pond ever told Linda 7 Tripp that she was asked to put FBI file 8 information on computer? You have no 9 firsthand knowledge of that? 10 A That Betsy Pond was told -- excuse 11 me? Say that again. 12 Q You don't have any firsthand 13 knowledge, do you, about discussions between 14 Betsy Pond and Linda Tripp concerning FBI 15 files? 16 A I know Betsy Pond. I know Betsy 17 Pond would never input, in any improper 18 fashion FBI, files into a computer. 19 Q We understand your position, that 20 everybody you worked with was the finest 21 public servant that ever lived. 22 A That's not my position. My 357 1 position -- 2 Q Let's just stipulate that that's 3 your position, okay? I'm just asking whether 4 you know of any discussion between Betsy Pond 5 and Linda Tripp concerning FBI files. You 6 have no firsthand information of that. You 7 never observed them discussing -- 8 A No, I've never observed Betsy Pond 9 and Linda Tripp discussing FBI files; that's 10 correct. 11 Q In fact, you didn't usually hear 12 them discussing anything, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q But you didn't get yourself 15 involved with chitchat between secretaries, 16 correct? 17 A That's correct. I don't get 18 involved, normally, with respect to that. 19 Q Did you ever go up to the OEOB 20 where you observed the interior of William 21 Kennedy's office? 22 A Yes. 358 1 Q You did observe that he had stacks 2 of files in his office? 3 A He had files in his office, yes. 4 Q He had quite a few files in his 5 office? 6 A Yes. 7 Q He had stacks of files on his 8 tables? 9 A Yes, he had files on his tables. 10 Q He had some files on the floor, 11 sometimes? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 14 that, but it's possible. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q He had some files on his sofa? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't remember him 19 having files on his sofa. He may have, but I 20 don't remember. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Some files on his coffee table? 359 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q He had a lot of files in his 4 office? 5 A He did have a lot of files in his 6 office. 7 Q Sometimes the files were stacked up 8 at least a foot high? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: His office was not 11 unusual. It was -- 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q I'm not saying it was. 14 A I don't recall files being stacked 15 up that high. I recall files on his desk, 16 and I recall files in other parts of his 17 office, because he had a very demanding job 18 to review a lot of files. 19 Q Some of those files related to 20 security clearances for holdovers and 21 political appointees? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 360 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know if 2 that's true. I don't think -- I don't know 3 if he was reviewing security clearance for 4 holdovers -- for political appointees 5 certainly, yes, absolutely. I don't know if 6 Kennedy was reviewing holdover files. I 7 think he was overwhelmed with reviewing files 8 from political appointees. We were, you 9 know, in the process of staffing the 10 administration. The first year of that 11 administration was very difficult. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q The outside color of some of those 14 file was a typical manila color? 15 A Yes. 16 Q These files bore labels on them 17 that had the names of the people in the 18 clearance process? 19 A I believe that's correct. 20 Q You could observe those labels, if 21 you really looked? 22 A I don't know if that's true. I 361 1 guess if you looked, if you put your head 2 down far enough, you could read the label, 3 but I don't think it was easily seen; at 4 least, I didn't, you know, easily see them. 5 Q His secretary sat outside his 6 office, which is where Betsy Pond sat, 7 correct? 8 A After Betsy Pond went over to work 9 for him, yes. 10 Q You could look into his office, if 11 the door was open? 12 A Yes, I believe that's true. I'm 13 not positive of that, but I believe it's 14 true. 15 Q You can see those files, if you 16 really tried to look, correct? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think you 19 could see the files standing outside his 20 office, or sitting outside his office. His 21 door was open, and you really wanted to look 22 at files. 362 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Sometimes when you walked up there 3 and were in the OEOB in the suite with 4 Kennedy, you saw files on Betsy Pond's desk; 5 didn't you? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 8 seeing files on Betsy Pond's desk, but there 9 may have been files on Betsy Pond's desk. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Some of those files were also 12 manila color? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 14 MR. MAZUR: Object to form, no 15 predicate. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't recall seeing 17 files of manila color on Betsy Pond's desk. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q But you may have? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 21 of the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I didn't see such 363 1 files on Betsy Pond's desk. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q But you weren't up there 4 constantly? 5 A I was not up there constantly. 6 Q You were up there infrequently? 7 A I was up there infrequently. 8 Q Did you know Steven Waudby? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know whether or not he 11 worked with Betsy Pond? 12 A His name just doesn't sound 13 familiar to me now. 14 Q You knew most of the major 15 employees that worked in your office? 16 A Yes, but I didn't -- yes. 17 Q So he was probably some low level 18 clerk or something? 19 A I don't know who he is. I just 20 don't remember his name at this point. 21 Q But you knew who Livingstone was; 22 didn't you? 364 1 A Yes. 2 Q You knew his name? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You knew it was Craig? 5 A Yes. 6 Q You could have mistaken him, in the 7 beginning, right? 8 A Yes, I think I could have. I 9 didn't really know him well -- well, I never 10 really knew him well while I was there. 11 Q You might have called him a 12 different name at first? 13 A Yes, that may well be. I sometimes 14 do that. 15 Q Is there a name you used more 16 frequently than another? 17 A No. 18 Q You are aware that your office 19 obtained the file of Chris Emery, the FBI 20 file material? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 365 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of 2 that. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Was there any valid basis for your 5 office to have a file of William Clinger? 6 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Is there any conceivable reason why 10 your file would have Clinger's file? 11 A Clinger FBI file? 12 Q Yeah. 13 A I know of no reason. 14 Q Do you have any conceivable reason 15 why you'd have a file on Clinger at all? 16 A An FBI file on Clinger, I know of 17 no conceivable reason. 18 Q Any kind of file on Clinger, FBI or 19 otherwise? 20 A Maybe there's a file of newspaper 21 clippings of Clinger's statements about 22 various things, that kind of file. I mean, 366 1 you put together a file, in preparation of 2 file, and you put everything in that file for 3 preparation of hearings. There may be all 4 sorts of reasons for a Clinger file of some 5 sort, but not a Clinger FBI background file, 6 unless you're thinking of appointing Clinger 7 to ambassador to Poland or something. 8 Q Is that where you wanted to send 9 him? 10 A No, we didn't want to send him 11 anywhere. 12 Q You don't know of any valid basis 13 why you'd keep a file of press clippings in 14 your safe, would you, about Clinger? That 15 wouldn't make sense; would it? 16 A It would not make sense, and there 17 was no file of Clinger kept in my safe. 18 Q Can you think of any valid basis 19 why you'd keep a file of Chris Emery press 20 clippings in your safe? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 367 1 THE WITNESS: I don't believe -- 2 no, there's no basis for keeping -- I don't 3 know of any file of clippings about Chris 4 Emery. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You are aware that Chris Emery was 7 fired, right? 8 A Chris Emery is The White House 9 usher? 10 Q Right. 11 A At some point he was fired. When, 12 I don't remember. 13 Q You know he was fired? 14 A I think I know he was fired. That 15 rings a bell. I wasn't involved in that at 16 all, so I just don't have the details of 17 that. 18 Q You are aware that Chris Emery was 19 reportedly fired because he had been seen 20 talking to Barbara Bush on the phone? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 22 of the question. 368 1 THE WITNESS: What was the 2 timeframe for this? 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q 1993. 5 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 6 the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I have a vague 8 recollection that Chris Emery was fired. 9 It's inconceivable to me, knowing the people 10 in The White House, that he was fired by 11 talking on the phone to Barbara Bush. That's 12 not the reason he was fired, if he was fired. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You did talk to Mrs. Clinton about 15 Chris Emery; didn't you? 16 A I never talked to Mrs. Clinton 17 about Chris Emery. 18 Q You're aware it was reported he was 19 fired because he was talking to Barbara Bush? 20 A It would not be true. 21 Q There was a concern in The White 22 House, though, wasn't there, about loyalty of 369 1 holdover employees? 2 A Yes, there was some concern about 3 that. Yes. 4 Q Mrs. Clinton expressed that 5 concern? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: No, she didn't 9 express that concern to me. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You know she expressed it to 12 others, though? 13 A I don't know whether she expressed 14 it to others, but I know she didn't express 15 it to me. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Who did express that concern? 20 A Vince Foster, at one point, raised 21 the issue of whether -- you know, whether 22 some people, you know, would act in a 370 1 professional manner. That's all we wanted 2 people to do, was act in a professional 3 manner. They didn't have to like the 4 Clintons or not like the Clintons, and he was 5 concerned about some holdovers acting in a 6 nonprofessional manner. 7 Q Who was acting in a nonprofessional 8 manner? 9 A I don't remember at this point. 10 Q Linda Tripp was one of them? 11 A No, Linda Tripp was not one of 12 them, at least to my knowledge at the time. 13 She may have been acting in an unprofessional 14 manner, but I didn't know about it. If I 15 did, I would have fired her. 16 Q It would have been perfectly 17 appropriate for Mr. Foster to request FBI 18 file material about holdover employees that 19 were not acting in a professional manner? 20 MR. MAZUR: I'm sorry. May I hear 21 that again? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 371 1 Q It would have been perfectly 2 appropriate for Mr. Foster to request FBI 3 file material about holdover employees that 4 were not acting in a professional manner? 5 A Yes, I think if we had a right to 6 fire somebody, we have a right to look into 7 their background with respect -- just like a 8 new political appointee. We look at his 9 file, you know, to make sure there's nothing 10 in there, and if we run across a present 11 employee, whether he's a holdover or not, 12 could be a Clinton appointee, but all of a 13 sudden, he starts acting in a strange 14 fashion, I don't think there's anything wrong 15 in calling for his file or looking for his 16 employee. That's what an employee would 17 normally do. 18 Q What criteria existed in The White 19 House to determine whether someone was acting 20 in a strange manner? 21 A There was no specific criteria with 22 regard to that. 372 1 Q So it was a discretionary -- 2 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Judgment as to whether or not 6 someone was acting in a strange manner? 7 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I know of no instance 9 where that was done. I don't know -- there 10 are White House personnel files and FBI 11 background files. I'm sure personnel files 12 are looked at, you know, from time to time. 13 We may be confusing the kind of files we're 14 talking about here. I don't think there's 15 anything wrong with looking at White House 16 personnel files, nor do I think there's 17 anything wrong looking at a FBI background 18 file on an employee. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q But whether that person is acting 21 strange is in the eyes of the beholder; isn't 22 it? 373 1 A Not necessarily. 2 Q What's strange to one person may be 3 normal to another? 4 A That may be true in some cases and 5 not in other cases. 6 Q So what you're telling me is there 7 were no criteria in place at The White House 8 to determine whether or not an FBI background 9 file, or material or personnel file should be 10 obtained on someone, in the event they were 11 acting strange? 12 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 13 THE WITNESS: FBI files were 14 obtained -- 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Calls for a yes or no. 17 A FBI files were obtained -- FBI 18 files were obtained for the purpose -- the 19 background files were obtained for the 20 primary purpose of determining whether to 21 hire new people, political appointees, as you 22 call them, or as part of a -- to review -- an 374 1 update process of employees who had been 2 there for a certain period of time. Those 3 are the primary functions and almost the sole 4 function that I knew, that would call for the 5 use of FBI background files. In fact, the 6 only thing I concentrated on at all, and the 7 only time I ever knew that FBI background 8 files were being called for by The White 9 House was with respect to potential 10 employees. That's the only thing I 11 concentrated on and knew about. 12 MR. MAZUR: When you got a new 13 subject, let's take a break. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Mr. Nussbaum, the picture that you 17 paint about your involvement in the review 18 process, the background review process, is 19 that you were detached from the operational 20 aspect of that, correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q That you purposefully detached 375 1 yourself from it? It's something you didn't 2 want to be involved in? 3 A That's correct. I didn't want to 4 be involved in it, because I had too many 5 other things to do. You know, if there was a 6 major problem with respect to a major 7 appointee, I expected my staff to bring it to 8 me, and we would resolve it. But I didn't -- 9 but as a matter of course, I didn't want to 10 be involved with this hundreds of appointees 11 we are trying the process, and it's my 12 office's job to process them. I did not want 13 to get involved in that process of hundreds 14 of appointees. Special appointees, special 15 problems, I was available to Kennedy; I was 16 available to Foster. The normal kinds of 17 things Kennedy would handle stopped at his 18 level. Sometimes it would go higher to his 19 level to Foster. 20 Q There were no criteria that you 21 laid out for Foster, or Kennedy, or 22 Livingstone, or Marceca or anybody else to 376 1 consult with you on a particular matter 2 concerning those background reviews? 3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, the criteria was 6 if it involved issues of policy, if it 7 involved -- yes, there were criteria. If it 8 involved a major significant White House 9 appointment, if it involved a particular 10 sensitive position, if it involved issues of 11 policy, you know, whether or not certain 12 conduct would be disqualifying or not, 13 smoking a marijuana cigarette 25 years ago. 14 That you bring to me. Those are the 15 criteria, significant issues, significant 16 policies, significant people, but normal run 17 of the mill stuff, you guys decide. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q But there was nothing in writing to 20 that effect? 21 A There was nothing in writing as to 22 what they should bring to me, that's correct, 377 1 but it was understood and discussed among the 2 three of us, Kennedy, Foster, and myself. 3 Q You didn't ask anybody to prepare a 4 procedural manual on that? 5 A There were procedural manuals. 6 Q But not on that? 7 A On this particular subject I 8 discussed with you? 9 Q Yes. 10 A No, not on that. 11 Q You relied on employees, some of 12 which you never knew till they began working 13 at The White House, and some of which you 14 only knew for a few months? 15 A I relied -- 16 Q Correct, as a factual matter? 17 MR. MAZUR: Objection to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: I relied on employees 20 who I had total confidence in, who I had 21 great respect for then and now. That's who I 22 relied on. I knew some of them for a few 378 1 months, but I worked intensively with 2 virtually all of them during that period in 3 The White House, under great pressure and 4 great strain. So I saw the kind of 5 characters they have. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You never told any of them, make 8 sure you don't use my name for anything 9 involving the security clearance process? 10 You never told them that? 11 A No, I never told them not to use my 12 name. I told them to follow prior procedures 13 of other administrations, and prior 14 procedures apparently used the name of The 15 White House counsel, and they were acting 16 totally appropriately in following those 17 procedures and using my name on those forms, 18 because that's what was done in the past, and 19 that's what we wanted to do. What was done 20 in the past, we would do in the future with 21 respect to this thing, if this is the 22 procedure that was followed. 379 1 Q If tomorrow you get a call from 2 Hillary Clinton, I want you back here as 3 White House counsel, you're going to change 4 that procedure; aren't you? 5 A I don't think Hillary's calling 6 tomorrow about me becoming White House 7 counsel, but if she does, I'll plug you in, 8 so the three of us can discuss it together. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman very 10 much wants to speak to Hillary Clinton, so 11 I'm sure he'd appreciate the opportunity. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: What did you say? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: I said Mr. Klayman 14 very much wants to speak to Hillary Clinton. 15 MR. MAZUR: Let's take a break. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, stop the clock. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 18 video record at 4:43. 19 (Recess) 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Are we ready for 21 video record? Stand by. We're back on video 22 record at 4:57. 380 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Mr. Nussbaum, did you ever hear of 3 a White House computer system called WHODB? 4 A No. 5 Q You ever hear of a White House 6 computer system called Big Brother? 7 A No. 8 Q Are you aware of any White House 9 surveillance systems? 10 MS. GILES: Objection. This is 11 outside the scope of relevance. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Video surveillance systems? 14 A No. 15 Q Have you ever had the feeling that 16 you're being filmed when you're in The White 17 House? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you have a feeling you're being 20 filmed now? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Just a check. I'll 381 1 show you what I'll ask the court reporter to 2 mark as the next exhibit. 3 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 4 No. 7 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You ever hear anybody discuss 8 anything about White House surveillance 9 systems when you were in The White House? 10 MS. GILES: Objection, relevance. 11 THE WITNESS: No. No, I never 12 heard anybody discuss White House 13 surveillance systems. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q What I've handed you as Exhibit 7 16 is a copy of your statement which you made 17 before the Committee on Government Reform and 18 Oversight on June 26, 1996. It consists of 19 five pages. 20 A Yes. 21 Q This is a statement which you made 22 under oath to the Government Reform and 382 1 Oversight Committee? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Is there anything in here which is 4 inaccurate, and you wish to change? 5 A No. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 7 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 8 Exhibit 8. 9 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 10 No. 8 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q This is an article written by 14 George Lardner of The Washington Post, "White 15 House contradicted on FBI files, Ex-aide 16 tells panel staff knew of checks on GOP 17 officials," October 5, 1996. Did you ever 18 see this before? 19 A I may have. I don't remember. You 20 know, I was reading the stories as they came 21 out at that time, and I read The Washington 22 Post every day, one habit I took back from me 383 1 from Washington to New York. So if this 2 story was in The Washington Post, I may well 3 have read it, except it's on Saturday. I 4 don't read it on Saturday and Sunday. I just 5 get it through the week. I'm sorry. Go on. 6 Q Two days off for good behavior? 7 A I just don't get The Post at home. 8 Q First two paragraphs, "Former 9 executive assistant in The White House 10 Security Office, contradicting accounts by 11 her old boss and co-workers, told Senate 12 investigators this week that 'Everybody in 13 the office knew in the fall of 1993 that they 14 were obtaining FBI files on people who were 15 no longer working there.'" 16 A Yes. 17 Q That's a correct statement; isn't 18 it? 19 A No, it's nonsense. Sheer nonsense. 20 Fantasy. 21 Q "The aide, Mari Anderson, an 22 ex-Clinton/Gore campaign worker, said that 384 1 they even joked about some prominent 2 Republicans still listed as current White 3 House pass holders." 4 You're aware that Mari Anderson 5 made this statement? 6 A I don't know who she is. 7 Q You've heard about it before; 8 haven't you? 9 A This, probably, would have been 10 brought to my attention at this time in 11 October 1996, even if I didn't get the 12 Saturday Washington Post. 13 Q Who brought it to your attention? 14 A Well, I don't recall if it would 15 have been my lawyers -- I might have picked 16 it up myself on Monday. 17 Q Cause you concern when you read it? 18 A No, not really, not concern about 19 the facts. I just knew it was nonsense. You 20 know, just kept up the churning, the foolish, 21 idiotic churning that the media does with 22 respect to this, in not getting their facts 385 1 right. 2 Q At the time you were White House 3 counsel or thereafter, do you know of anyone 4 who's ever disciplined Mari Anderson? 5 A No. 6 Q Were any issues raised about her 7 having not been a truthful person? 8 A I don't know who she is, even. 9 Q She worked as Craig Livingstone's 10 assistant. 11 A Well, if she did, she did. 12 Q Was it ever brought to your 13 attention that here is someone who is not 14 truthful? 15 A Not when I worked in The White 16 House. I never heard of her when I worked in 17 The White House. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Now I'll show you 19 what I'll ask be marked as the next exhibit. 20 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 21 No. 9 was marked for 22 identification.) 386 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Exhibit 9 are requisition forms 3 from Bernard Nussbuam to FBI liaison for 4 certain individuals: Alexander, Cara Leslie, 5 Bridgman, Marjorie Anne, David Lee Black, 6 Joseph Patrick Duggan, Barnaby Lair Brasseux, 7 Marlin Fitzwater, Laszlo Thomas Csorba, 8 Kenneth Mark Duberstein, George Gray Caudill 9 Junior, John Paul Dreylinger, and Linda 10 Lugenia Arey. 11 Have you ever seen these forms 12 before? 13 A No. Well, not when I worked in The 14 White House. Perhaps I saw forms like this 15 after the issue arose in 1996, but when I 16 worked in The White House I never saw these 17 forms before. 18 Q Who was the person who typed in 19 your name, Bernard W. Nussbuam? 20 A I do not know. 21 Q Have you ever asked? 22 A No. I know now that the procedure 387 1 was the same procedure used with regard by 2 the prior administration. The name of The 3 White House counsel, whoever he may be, was 4 typed in or printed on the form, whoever the 5 counsel were, so they followed the procedure. 6 I became counsel, they typed my name. 7 Q Do you know where else they typed 8 your name in when you worked there? 9 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I know letters were 11 written, you know, at times, that went out 12 under my name. There was a signature pen. I 13 mean, we had people -- you know, I gave 14 people authority to do that in sort of form 15 correspondence, so my name was used there 16 without me knowing every specific letter that 17 went out. We had a lot of correspondence, 18 and that has to be done sometimes in an 19 organization, and that was done also at The 20 White House. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Now, it's your understanding that 388 1 the head of an organization should 2 periodically, either himself or have others, 3 check on what the other employees in that 4 organization are doing? 5 A Yes, I think that's true. I think 6 the head of an organization should be aware 7 of what people in the organization are doing. 8 Q There is, in any organization, 9 routine monitoring procedures, correct? 10 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think that's 13 a fair statement. Yes. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q What monitoring procedures did you 16 put into place with regard to the security 17 clearance process? 18 A I met daily with my senior staff in 19 The White House, with Foster and Kennedy, and 20 the other associate counsel, Neuwirth, and 21 Mills. You know, I was a very hands-on 22 leader, I believe, of The White House 389 1 Counsel's Office. Each day we would discuss 2 at our morning meeting, after I left the 3 senior staff meeting, what we would do that 4 day, what our problems were, what people were 5 doing, what they were working on, if they 6 needed more help, you know. So each day I 7 knew what everybody in the office was doing, 8 including Kennedy, and Kennedy would discuss 9 what he's doing, what help he needed. That's 10 the kind of -- that's how you know what's 11 going on, and you provide the proper support 12 and leadership. But I did not read every 13 form that was sent out or comment, on the 14 type of form, or whether this is the best way 15 of doing the form issued by The White House 16 Counsel's Office. 17 Q Did you ever ask in those staff 18 meetings, show me the list that you're using 19 to get FBI materials in the clearance 20 process? 21 A No, never said that. 22 Q Did you ever say, show me the forms 390 1 that you're sending over to the FBI 2 requisitioning materials? 3 A No, I never said that either, just 4 like I never said, show me the forms to get 5 pencils or anything else. I didn't say that 6 at all. 7 Q Did you ever say, do you have a 8 procedure in place to make sure we don't get 9 files of the wrong people? Did you ever say 10 that? 11 A No, I never said that, because I 12 assumed at all times we were getting files of 13 the right people. I did say we should follow 14 the procedures that were put into place by 15 past administrations, procedures that were 16 discussed. See, I knew the procedures 17 generally. They were told to follow the 18 procedures the prior administration followed. 19 Q Let me just ask you these 20 questions. Did you ever ask Kennedy or 21 Foster, who was actually handling these FBI 22 files when they came in? 391 1 A The actual individuals handling 2 them? 3 Q Yes. 4 A No, I never asked Kennedy or Foster 5 that. That was their responsibility or 6 Kennedy's responsibility particularly to 7 organize his office in effect. 8 Q You never said to them, make sure 9 that the people that handled these files have 10 security clearances? 11 A I said -- 12 Q You never said that, did you, 13 specifically? 14 A No, I don't recall ever saying that 15 specifically. 16 Q Are you aware that some of the 17 people that handled these FBI materials were 18 interns right out of school? 19 A I am aware that because the 20 President and The White House cut the staff 21 by 25 percent it was necessary to go outside 22 The White House, from time to time, to have 392 1 details from other government agencies come 2 to The White House to assist in these 3 pressing functions. And I'm aware that also 4 interns were used in The White House with 5 respect to certain functions in The White 6 House. 7 I'm not aware of how they -- to 8 what extent they functioned in the Office of 9 Personnel Security. 10 Q If you had known that Livingstone 11 was having interns handle these files, you 12 would have told him to stop. Correct? 13 A I'm not sure I would have. I'm not 14 sure that was inappropriate. I'm not sure 15 you need a security clearance necessarily to 16 handle some of these kinds of files. I'm not 17 sure. Maybe. I might have. I might not 18 have. 19 Q Because you never checked them? 20 A I never checked what? 21 Q Whether you needed a security 22 clearance to handle these files. 393 1 A No, I never personally checked 2 that. That was up to Kennedy, and I'm sure 3 he would have -- I had confidence in him to 4 put in the appropriate procedures, and I 5 believe he did put in the appropriate 6 procedures. I don't think anything wrong was 7 done. 8 Q You never explicitly asked him to 9 check as to whether you needed a security 10 clearance to handle the FBI materials? 11 A No. I never asked him to check. I 12 asked him to make sure the appropriate 13 procedures were followed. He was intelligent 14 enough and senior enough to determine what 15 they were. 16 Q You knew that Kennedy had no prior 17 Washington experience? 18 A I did not know that. He did have 19 prior Washington experience. He worked for 20 Senator McClellan as I testified before. 21 Q As a New York lawyer, you know 22 working on Capitol Hill doesn't amount to 394 1 much of anything, right? 2 A It's very important experience in 3 this time. 4 Q It's not equivalent to working in 5 The White House Counsel's Office? 6 A There's nothing equivalent with 7 working in The White House Counsel's Office, 8 except maybe at Judicial Watch. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Let's just say 10 they're equally unique. 11 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You're aware that Foster had no 14 prior Washington experience? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q What do you know about anybody that 17 went into his office after he died? 18 A Yes. I know that when I returned 19 to The White House after I heard about his 20 death, that I walked into the Counsel's 21 office and saw the lights on and saw Maggie 22 Williams and Pat Thomasson in the office. I 395 1 asked them what they were doing. 2 They said they had just come in 3 there -- they just arrived to see if Vince 4 had left a suicide note. I said actually 5 that's what I was coming in to see myself. I 6 said -- and they said they had just gotten 7 there, and I said have you seen anything? 8 They said no. I said I'll take a look and I 9 took a look. 10 They just watched me. I looked 11 through the desk. I looked in his credenza. 12 I looked behind. I may have opened a drawer 13 in his office. I saw nothing. I shut the 14 drawer. I said okay let's all leave. They 15 left and I left -- I went to my office which 16 was adjoining Foster's office and they left. 17 That's what I know about people 18 entering Foster's office the night of 19 Foster's suicide. The next morning we sealed 20 the office. 21 Q Now, what business was it of Maggie 22 Williams being in Vince Foster's office? 396 1 What business did she have being in there? 2 A She was enormously distraught by 3 Foster's suicide. And she just wondered if 4 there were any explanation, did he leave a 5 note to tell us why he did this. 6 Q She was sent into that office by 7 Hillary Clinton, wasn't she? 8 A I don't believe so at all. 9 Q You don't know one way or the 10 other, do you? 11 A I don't know, but I don't believe 12 she was sent in by Hillary Clinton. 13 Q She went into that office at 14 Hillary Clinton's request to make sure no 15 documents were in that office that could be 16 embarrassing? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: Not true. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Who told you that? 22 A She did. Maggie, she told me why 397 1 she was there. 2 Q You're aware that Maggie Williams 3 carried file folders out of Vince Foster's 4 office after he died? 5 A No, I'm not aware because it's not 6 true. I know. 7 Q But do you have any knowledge of 8 that? 9 A Yes, I have knowledge. I was 10 there. She was there. I was there. They 11 walked out in front of me without any papers. 12 That was it. 13 Q But you don't know if they came 14 back later, do you? 15 A Sure. I was there for two hours 16 afterwards. They didn't come back later. 17 Nobody came back. This is all fiction. 18 Q It's a phantom thing? 19 A A phantom thing, right. You're 20 getting it. Good. 21 Q Are you aware that Officer O'Neil 22 observed Mrs. Williams carrying file folders 398 1 out of the counsel suite when he saw her on 2 the night of Mr. Foster's death and has 3 testified to that effect? 4 A Yes, he has. 5 Q Are you calling Officer O'Neil a 6 liar? 7 A No. I'm calling him a very 8 confused and sad figure. That's what I'm 9 calling Officer O'Neil. 10 Q Why do you believe he's confused 11 and sad? 12 A Because I was in the Counsel's 13 office that night. I was right next to 14 Foster's office that night. Maggie 15 Williams -- I saw Maggie Williams there. She 16 was there a short period of time, no more 17 than five to ten minutes. She left that 18 office. 19 I then remained in the office next 20 to Foster's office, and I can see anybody 21 walking into Foster's office, making calls to 22 people on my staff about Foster's death so 399 1 they didn't hear it on the radio in the 2 morning. Then I left the office and locked 3 the office and that's why I call Officer 4 O'Neil a confused man. 5 Q What motive would Officer O'Neil 6 have to be confused? 7 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 8 the question. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, people 12 can be confused without motive. People can 13 be confused because, you know, their emotions 14 get the better of them. They're old, they're 15 decrepit. You know, things happen. 16 Sometimes people get confused even if they're 17 fairly young and not decrepit. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Let's back up here. You knew Vince 20 Foster at the time he died? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You cared for the guy? 400 1 A Yes. 2 Q You admired him? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You loved him in a professional 5 sense? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q You were broken up when he died? 8 A Oh, yes, I was, absolutely. 9 Q This was not an easy moment when 10 you walked into that office and went in there 11 and saw Maggie Williams, was it? 12 A No, it wasn't an easy moment. 13 Q It was tough? 14 A Yes, it was a tough night for all 15 of us. 16 Q Now, to the best of your knowledge, 17 officer O'Neil he didn't have a professional 18 relationship with Vince Foster, did he? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q He didn't know Vince Foster before 21 that night? 22 A That's right. 401 1 Q You were the one that was 2 emotional, correct? 3 A No. I was -- I had strong 4 feelings, but I acted like a professional. 5 Q So isn't it likely that you were 6 confused because of the emotion of it? 7 A No, it's not. 8 Q Isn't it likely that you didn't 9 observe Ms. Williams taking out files because 10 you were so broken up? 11 A No, not true. I was clear headed, 12 calm, and professional, and at the same time 13 felt a lot of anguish for Vince Foster. 14 Q Now, isn't it true that you, as an 15 experienced criminal prosecutor and defense 16 lawyer, if you weren't so emotional, if you 17 weren't so broken up, your first reaction 18 would have been let's seal the office. 19 Nobody goes in there? 20 A Absolutely not. The office was not 21 a crime scene. Nobody was killed in the 22 office. 402 1 Q Well, you didn't know at that time 2 the cause of death? 3 A I was told that he was found in a 4 park, a suicide. 5 Q That caught you by surprise, 6 correct? 7 A Oh, yes. 8 Q You didn't think Vince Foster was 9 going to kill himself? 10 A No, I did not. 11 MS. GILES: Objection to this line 12 of questioning as irrelevant. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q It did catch you by surprise? 15 A The suicide? Yes, the suicide 16 caught me by surprise. 17 Q You didn't think Vince Foster was 18 capable of killing himself, did you? 19 A Well, everybody's capable of 20 killing himself. I thought he was capable of 21 killing himself just like anybody here is 22 capable of killing himself. I didn't think 403 1 he would kill himself. 2 Q Have you ever thought about killing 3 yourself? 4 A No. Have you? 5 MR. MAZUR: I'm starting to. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Who is? You are or I 7 am? You're thinking of killing me? 8 MR. MAZUR: No. I'm talking about 9 killing themselves. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: That would be the 11 ultimate obstruction of justice. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: You've had it too 13 easy too long, Mr. Mazur. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Now, isn't it true that Officer 16 O'Neil testified that Maggie Williams came 17 out of the office after you did? You're 18 aware of that, aren't you? 19 A Yes. 20 Q In fact, she did come out of the 21 office after you? 22 A She did not. She came out of the 404 1 office before I did. I ushered them out of 2 the office. I was there. That's what 3 happened. 4 Q Now, why is it that, based on your 5 considerable experience in criminal law and 6 procedure, it wouldn't have been prudent to 7 seal that office immediately? 8 A Because as I said, it wasn't a 9 crime scene. Nothing happened in the office. 10 It's as if -- you know, I don't know, if you 11 went out and killed yourself, we'd seal 12 Judicial Watch if you went to a park and did 13 it. I don't think you'd seal Judicial Watch 14 or you'd seal even your office in Judicial 15 Watch. 16 The next morning, on the other 17 hand, I ended up sealing the office after 18 Neuwirth and I think Sloan talked to me and 19 they said -- senior members of my staff who I 20 had a lot of confidence in. People are going 21 to be investigating and we really should seal 22 the office. I said -- I made the same point 405 1 to them. I said it's not a crime scene. 2 They said, well, you know, this is a 3 sensitive -- which is obviously is -- this is 4 a sensitive matter. It may be prudent to 5 make sure that nobody goes into that office. 6 Betsy had gone into that office 7 already to straighten up papers and I told 8 her not to go into the office at that point 9 and I said, you know, you're right and I 10 ordered the office sealed at that point, 11 about 10:00 o'clock the next morning, and 12 then we had guards watching the office for 13 the rest of the day until we put a lock on it 14 and there's only two keys to the lock. I had 15 one and somebody else had one. I don't 16 remember who had the other one. 17 Q In your prior professional life you 18 had worked on cases where people had died, 19 correct? 20 A Yes. I had worked on cases where 21 people had died but I've never tried a murder 22 case. My practice was mostly white collar, 406 1 both my prosecution practice as well as my 2 defense practice. So I really had not worked 3 on murder cases, you know, per se, or 4 homicides of any sense. 5 You know, if Vince Foster -- if we 6 had found him shot in the office, obviously, 7 the office would have been sealed. We didn't 8 find him shot in the office. We didn't seal 9 his home. We didn't go to his house and seal 10 it. I felt the same about the office. The 11 office is the office, the house is the house. 12 Because somebody kills themselves or 13 apparently kills themself you don't seal all 14 these things. The next day I ended up 15 sealing it and nobody had gone into it 16 between the time I had left it, other than 17 Betsy to straighten up papers, and the time 18 we sealed it. 19 Q You are aware that documents were 20 taken out of that office and sent to the 21 White House living quarters? 22 A I took them out two days later 407 1 after we searched the office with Department 2 of Justice. No documents were taken out 3 until the entire office was looked at and all 4 the documents reviewed by me in the presence 5 of Department of Justice. 6 Q You are aware that in Vince 7 Foster's office at the time he died were some 8 files? 9 A Yes, of course, there were files. 10 Q Some of those files were in a 11 manila type envelope? 12 A Yes, files were in a manila type 13 envelope. 14 Q You're aware that some of the files 15 in his office related to the security check 16 process? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: All the file -- I'm 20 not -- I don't know what you're referring to 21 at this point. What do you mean the security 22 check process? 408 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Some of the files in his office 3 related to the materials obtained from the 4 FBI investigation? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that 8 is true at all. I'm not aware of that at 9 all. 10 Q You didn't check one way or the 11 other, did you? 12 A I did. I checked every file in the 13 office. Every file in the office I 14 checked -- I looked at while the Department 15 of Justice was there and thereafter because I 16 was the one who divided up the files. I was 17 the one who decided which files should go to 18 the residence and which files should go to 19 other associate counsel with respect to 20 various matters that Foster was working on. 21 I was divvying up the work. 22 Q What were the criteria for sending 409 1 files to The White House, materials to The 2 White House? 3 A If they were files of a basic 4 personal nature which Foster had been working 5 on in connection with the Clintons' official 6 duties such as financial disclosure blind 7 trust. It so happened at the time Foster 8 killed himself, that work was virtually over. 9 It was finished. There was no point in us 10 keeping any more personal files, financial 11 files and the like, although there was good 12 reason for them to be there in the first 13 place, that reason was now over. Not that 14 Foster was dead. That is not the reason it 15 was over. It's that Foster's work -- the 16 kind of work he did was over with respect to 17 them. 18 So those files I sent back to the 19 residence which then sent them ultimately to 20 Williams & Connolly with a list of all the 21 files that were contained therein and other 22 files, working files, with respect to various 410 1 matters were distributed among the various 2 associate counsel as I decided who should say 3 over the particular matter. 4 Q Some of the documents you found in 5 Foster's office related to Rose Law Firm 6 billing records, correct? 7 MS. GILES: Objection, relevance. 8 THE WITNESS: No, not correct. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q In fact in your safe, kept in your 11 office at one time, were White House billing 12 office records? 13 MR. MAZUR: White House? 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Rose Law Firm billing records? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: No, Mr. Klayman, 19 that's not correct. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q But you can't rule that because you 22 don't know everything Foster put in there? 411 1 A I know The White House billing 2 records -- you got me talking about White 3 House billing records, too. Many Rose Law 4 Firm billing records were not in the safe, at 5 no time were Rose Law Firm billing records in 6 the safe in The White House Counsel's Office. 7 I had access to the safe more than anybody 8 else. I looked in the safe more than anybody 9 else. I knew what was in the safe. If I saw 10 law firm billing records in the safe, I would 11 recognize them more than anybody else. No 12 such records were ever in the safe or in The 13 White House Counsel's Office at all. They 14 were not in Foster's office either at 15 Foster's death, because I went through every 16 file in Foster's office. 17 Q Mr. Nussbaum, just about an hour 18 ago you testified you rarely went in the 19 safe. Now all of a sudden you become the one 20 with the greatest access to the safe? 21 A It was right in my office. I 22 didn't go into the safe all the time but I 412 1 had more access than anybody else. 2 Q You can't say for a fact those 3 billing records weren't there for a day or 4 two? 5 A Is it physically conceivable that 6 that could happen, yes, it's physically 7 conceivable. Also the Hope diamond could 8 have been in there for a day or two without 9 me knowing about it also as well as the 10 billing records of Judicial Watch, too, I 11 guess, if somebody put them in when I was 12 gone for a day or two, but they weren't 13 there. They weren't there. They were never 14 in The White House Counsel's Office, the Rose 15 Law Firm billing records, another fantasy. 16 Q Now, with the exception of the 17 Lewinsky matter, is it your opinion that all 18 these other Clinton controversies or 19 scandals, whatever way you look at them, that 20 it was all the result of negligence and 21 inadvertent snafus. Nothing was ever 22 intentional that was done there? 413 1 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 2 the question. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Thirty-eight different scandals? 5 MS. GILES: Objection. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: These are all -- 9 other than the Lewinsky matter, all the 10 scandals -- the so-called scandals that we've 11 talked about today were not real scandals. 12 They were fictional scandals. There was 13 nothing wrong with the Travel Office 14 situation. There was nothing wrong with the 15 file situation, and there's nothing wrong 16 with Whitewater or anything like that. These 17 are all nothing, zero. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you have an opinion on the 20 so-called Chinagate scandal? Is that a 21 serious scandal? 22 A I don't know. I wasn't in The 414 1 White House when that emerged. 2 Q You're not going to take credit for 3 that one? 4 A Or blame. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check, 6 Mr. Holley? 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5:27. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Sixteen minutes, 9 Mr. Klayman. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Now, in fact you cut a deal with 12 the Justice Department that you could review 13 the documents in Foster's office before they 14 were shipped off elsewhere, correct? 15 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I discussed with the 17 Justice Department a procedure -- I was 18 balancing things out. I had a difficult 19 judgment to make. I discussed how to protect 20 privilege and yet on the other hand meet the 21 legitimate interests of the Justice 22 Department in trying to determine what my -- 415 1 you know, what was -- might be the cause of 2 Foster's death. 3 So the way we balanced it out is 4 that I would look at the documents in their 5 presence, and I would glance at them. I 6 would describe to them, as I did, the kind of 7 document it appeared to be or it was, and if 8 there was anything that they wished or they 9 thought would be relevant to their inquiry 10 with respect to Foster, then I would put it 11 aside and make a determination later whether 12 to turn it over to them. 13 So for example, I would say these 14 are Foster's calendars, and they'd say, oh, 15 we might want to look at them, so I'd put 16 them in a pile, and the pile built up of 17 documents they might want to look at as I 18 described the type of document it was. I 19 said all right, I'll take a look at that 20 after this is over and we'll make a 21 determination as to what to do. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just go off 416 1 the record right now because I have to sign 2 for something. I apologize. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 4 video record at 5:29. 5 (Discussion off the record) 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 7 video record at 5:30. 8 THE WITNESS: Where was I? 9 MR. MAZUR: You were in the middle 10 of explaining the procedures in Foster's 11 office for reviewing the documents. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q I just asked you whether you 14 reached an agreement with the Justice 15 Department. You gave me a long answer. You 16 weren't trying to run out the clock, were 17 you? 18 A No, absolutely not. So they 19 requested that they wanted to look at certain 20 documents. I said okay, I'll review them and 21 I'll put them in a separate pile and I did 22 review them and I turned everything over to 417 1 the Justice Department as they requested. 2 But at the same time my office had 3 to continue functioning so I started 4 distributing documents to other people -- 5 documents they didn't request other associate 6 counsel to work on those matters and these 7 personal records I sent, on which the 8 official work had been completed, I sent back 9 to the residence. That's what happened. 10 That's the search of Foster's office and 11 that's what documents were distributed from 12 Foster's office. 13 Q Now, in fact your handling of these 14 documents, your role in handling them after 15 Foster died, in large part that was an event 16 which triggered your resignation? 17 A I was -- yes, at some point there 18 were statements made, you know, critical of 19 me for engaging in this procedure, which I 20 believed then and believe now to be a proper 21 procedure. I don't know if that was a factor 22 in my resignation at the time. This issue 418 1 really blew up, the questioning of how I 2 handled it, much more in 1995, when I 3 testified at congressional hearings with 4 respect to it. It really wasn't that big an 5 issue at the time I did it or even at the end 6 of 1993. 7 Q Isn't it true that Phillip Hayman 8 of the Department of Justice quit because of 9 his view that you had obstructed the 10 Department of Justice's document search? 11 A No, that's not true. 12 Q Did you ever talk to Hayman about 13 that? 14 A I talked to Hayman about his 15 quitting, yes. Phillip Hayman quit because 16 he and Janet Reno weren't getting on together 17 well. The chemistry was absent between the 18 two of them, and she wanted a different 19 deputy attorney general, and he resigned in 20 view of that. 21 Q You saw Janet Reno in your office 22 sometimes, didn't you? 419 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q She came over there with regard to 3 FBI procedures? 4 A I discussed FBI procedures with -- 5 you know, when a controversy arose after the 6 Travel Office thing about how to deal with 7 the FBI or how to communicate with the FBI, 8 Janet Reno and I agreed upon procedures as to 9 how The White House would communicate with 10 the FBI. 11 Q You're aware of Janet Reno 12 sometimes meeting with the President at The 13 White House? 14 A Of course. 15 Q You're aware of Janet Reno 16 sometimes meeting with Hillary Clinton at The 17 White House? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know of any 21 meeting Janet Reno had with Hillary Clinton 22 at The White House. 420 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Hillary was there? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Janet Reno as well as 6 any cabinet officer can see Hillary as well 7 as the President, but Janet Reno had no 8 particular role or interest in meeting with 9 Hillary Clinton alone. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q After Vince Foster died, Joel Klein 12 was hired to replace him, wasn't he? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Who hired Klein? 15 A I did. 16 Q Do you know where Klein came from? 17 A Klein was a respected appellate 18 lawyer in Washington, and he assisted me. He 19 was sort of as a volunteer when we made the 20 Ruth Ginsburg appointment in June of 1993, 21 and he was very, very helpful with respect to 22 that. 421 1 He was very knowledgeable about 2 substantive law, Supreme Court practice, 3 judges, he had clerked for Justice Powell on 4 the Supreme Court. He was very smart. He 5 just knew that area, and he was a great help. 6 We both recommended to the President that 7 appointment and then shepherded that 8 appointment through the confirmation process 9 which went very smoothly. I got to know him 10 then. 11 After Vince died and I had to 12 select a deputy counsel, I selected Klein 13 primarily for the reason that I thought that 14 we might have a number of Supreme Court 15 appointments and that obviously would be a 16 key part of our job, to recommend somebody to 17 the President. I thought he would be very 18 helpful in that regard. 19 Q You're aware that Klein kept files 20 on individuals, aren't you? 21 A No, I'm not aware of that. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 422 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of 3 that. I mean, Klein took Foster's place in 4 connection with vetting of potential 5 appointees like Klein. For example, when we 6 had to put in a new Secretary of Defense, 7 Klein took the leading role in vetting Bobby 8 Inman who was being considered at that 9 particular time for the new Secretary of 10 Defense. He may have kept a file at that 11 point on Bobby Inman. You know, he was 12 involved in the -- just like Foster was 13 involved ultimately in the process. 14 Q Who was Klein's secretary? He 15 brought his secretary over from his law firm. 16 I forgot her name. You never talked to her? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did she tell you Klein kept files 19 on people? 20 A No, she never told me. 21 Q Did she ever tell you that Klein is 22 a dangerous man? 423 1 A His secretary, klein's secretary? 2 Q Yes. 3 A No, she never told me that. 4 Q You are aware that Linda Tripp knew 5 Bruce Lindsey in The White House? 6 A Yes, I'm aware that she knew Bruce 7 Lindsey. 8 Q That Linda initially liked Bruce 9 Lindsey? 10 A I believe that to be true, yes. 11 When I left The White House, I believe Linda 12 and Bruce got along and liked each other. 13 Q You're aware that Linda Tripp 14 ultimately talked to Bruce Lindsey about what 15 she was observing in The White House 16 Counsel's Office? 17 A No, I'm not aware of that. While I 18 was there? No, I'm not aware of that, no. 19 Q You're aware that Linda Tripp 20 expressed her concerns about Joel Klein? 21 A Well -- 22 MR. MAZUR: To Lindsey? 424 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: Joel Klein remained 3 as deputy counsel after I left. Lloyd Cutler 4 became counsel to the President. I didn't 5 know if Linda Tripp had expressed concerns to 6 Bruce Lindsey about Joel Klein when I was 7 White House counsel. She may have, because I 8 know she didn't like Mr. Klein, expressed 9 thoughts when I was no longer White House 10 counsel. That may have happened but I don't 11 know that for a fact. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q How do you know she didn't like 14 Mr. Klein? 15 A I guess when we discussed her 16 deposition I was told that by Mr. Mazur 17 maybe. 18 Q When did you discuss that with 19 Mr. Mazur? 20 A When we were preparing for -- when 21 I asked, you know, what Linda Tripp said 22 about, you know, certain issues. 425 1 MR. MAZUR: I think you should stop 2 at this point. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: He's allowed to -- 4 MR. MAZUR: Well, it's a privileged 5 communication. The question is whether 6 you're going to argue this is some kind of 7 waiver. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I will argue that but 9 I don't think there was a privilege to begin 10 with. 11 MR. MAZUR: I think our 12 conversations are privileged so we'll just 13 leave it like that. 14 THE WITNESS: Anyway, that's what I 15 heard with respect to Linda Tripp's feelings 16 about Mr. Klein. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you know of Mr. Klein ever 19 calling the Justice Department and asking for 20 anyone to be investigated, anyone or 21 anything? 22 A Other than in connection with 426 1 potential appointees, no. 2 Q Did you have contact with the Rose 3 Law Firm from time to time about legal 4 matters that the Rose Law Firm was working 5 on? 6 A While I was White House counsel? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No. 9 Q Do you have any knowledge as to 10 whether The White House Counsel's Office ever 11 did any favors, so to speak, for the Rose Law 12 Firm? 13 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you have any knowledge as to 17 whether The White House Counsel's Office ever 18 did any favors for the Rose Law Firm by 19 having competitors of clients of the Rose Law 20 Firm investigated? 21 A No. No. No. Come on, no. 22 Q You're saying that never happened? 427 1 A That's right. 2 Q Webster Hubbell, did you play a 3 role in vetting Webster Hubbell? 4 A No, I didn't vet Webster Hubbell. 5 Q Who vetted him? 6 A I don't remember. I mean, you 7 know, the FBI in effect. Obviously we knew a 8 lot about Webster Hubbell before he was 9 appointed since he was another partner of the 10 Rose Law Firm with Clinton -- Hillary Clinton 11 but an FBI background check was done on 12 Webster Hubbell. 13 Q Did you yourself ever look at 14 materials concerning that FBI background 15 check concerning Webster Hubbell? 16 A I don't know. That's a good 17 question. There's a possibility that that 18 might have happened. 19 Q Well, given the fact that Kennedy 20 and Foster worked at the Rose Law Firm, you 21 would have vetted that one, right? 22 A That's right. It's the kind of 428 1 thing that either Foster or Kennedy would 2 have said to me, you look at this one 3 because, you know, we're so close to Webster 4 Hubbell, and it's possible I did. I've 5 forgotten about that, but it's possible that 6 an FBI file or at least information with 7 respect to that file might have been given to 8 me. I remember clearly there was nothing in 9 Webster Hubbell's background that gave us any 10 pause. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Time check. 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5:40. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Are you aware of any computer 15 programs on computers in The White House 16 Counsel's Office that were encrypted? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know what encryptions are? 19 Not really? 20 A Putting something in code of some 21 sort. 22 Q But you're not computer literate? 429 1 A I'm not computer literate. 2 Q You don't know anything about 3 passwords getting into computers or anything 4 like that? 5 A Well, I sort of know now a little 6 bit. Actually now I have a computer behind 7 me in my office in New York which I can put 8 on and put in my password. I get the news in 9 the area or something like that. 10 Q But you never knew any stuff about 11 that when you worked at The White House? 12 A No, and I still can't send an 13 e-mail. 14 Q That's probably good, don't you 15 think? 16 A It is good. You don't have any of 17 my e-mails. 18 Q Did you ever have any contact with 19 the law firm Wright, Lindsey out of Little 20 Rock? 21 A I may have met people from that 22 firm. It's Bruce Lindsey's old firm. People 430 1 may have come up and chatted with us, you 2 know, visited us from Arkansas, but I 3 don't -- but other than that, I didn't have 4 any contact with Wright, Lindsey. 5 Q Did Deborah Gorham ever complain to 6 you about Linda? 7 A Yes, I think so. I vaguely 8 remember Beth, Betsy, and Deborah complained 9 about Linda being difficult and overbearing. 10 As time went on and Linda became more 11 confident in her position, she became more 12 difficult for Betsy and Deborah to deal with, 13 and I found her competent and, you know, so 14 I -- and experienced, and I was reluctant to 15 lose another good secretary, so I tried to 16 handle those issues. 17 Q You took no disciplinary action? 18 A Against Linda Tripp? 19 Q Yes. 20 A I talked to Linda and told her to 21 start getting along with people and stop 22 being a know it all. Linda said she would 431 1 and she really didn't, I guess. 2 Q Now, when you were White House 3 counsel, Hillary Clinton frequently came into 4 the office? 5 A Not frequently. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 Q About how many times? 9 A A few. I would go into her office. 10 It was very close. Every so often she would 11 come in but not frequently. 12 Q You did that frequently? 13 A In her office? 14 Q Yes. 15 A No, but you know I would see her, 16 chat with her if she was in her office, talk 17 with her. She was very busy very engaged in 18 healthcare. 19 Q Did she ever ask you to water her 20 plants? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you know she had asked Vince to 432 1 take care of her plants? 2 A Who? 3 Q Vince. 4 A No, I didn't know that. 5 Q Now, Foster visited Mrs. Clinton's 6 office frequently, didn't he? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: He visited 10 Mrs. Clinton's office from time to time. I 11 wouldn't say frequently but he did visit 12 Mrs. Clinton's office. Foster was the person 13 on staff who was the point man on healthcare, 14 which was a sensitive issue at the time, 15 obviously, so he dealt with Mrs. Clinton a 16 fair amount on that issue and visited to 17 discuss issues concerning what do you do 18 about malpractice insurance, you know, 19 various issues that arose like that. They 20 wanted legal input. 21 Q So by necessity they were in 22 intimate professional contact? 433 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: By necessity they 4 were in professional contact, that's correct. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Intimate professional contact? 7 A I wouldn't use the word intimate. 8 Q Why not? 9 A Because it doesn't describe their 10 relationship. 11 Q I'm not using it personally. I'm 12 saying intimate professional contact? 13 A No, I don't think it's a good way 14 to phrase it. They were professional 15 colleagues and good friends. 16 Q They worked closely together? 17 A They did work closely together. 18 Q She was frequently in Vince's 19 office? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I think she was 434 1 rarely in Vince's office. While she was 2 infrequently in my office it was probably 3 more than Vince's office. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Vince would sometimes take 6 documents to her, correct? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 8 of the question. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sure on the 10 healthcare matter Vince took documents to her 11 office. 12 Q On other matters, too? 13 A Perhaps. 14 MS. GILES: Mr. Klayman, I believe 15 your time is up. I may have a couple minutes 16 of cross if we can just take a five-minute 17 break. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 20 video record at 5:45. 21 (Recess) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 435 1 video record at 5:54. 2 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS 3 FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION 4 AND EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT 5 BY MS. GILES: 6 Q Mr. Nussbaum, there's been a lot of 7 discussion about files and folders. Do you 8 understand the distinction between something 9 called personnel security file versus an 10 individual's personnel folder or file? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lack of 12 foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Obviously, 14 there are different kinds of files in The 15 White House with respect to individuals. The 16 personnel security file is the file, as I 17 understand it, that was contained in the 18 Office of Personnel Security, the office 19 Livingstone headed which contained the FBI 20 background file among other information with 21 respect to -- there may be other vetting 22 information and things like that. 436 1 There are also other individual 2 personnel files which contain information 3 with respect to health, salary, you know, 4 typical personnel files that you would have 5 in any organization. That's a different 6 personnel kind of file. 7 We had an Office of Presidential 8 Personnel. We had a personnel office notice 9 White House and Executive Office of the 10 President which contained people's personnel 11 files. 12 BY MS. GILES: 13 Q That's where the personnel files 14 would have been stored? 15 A That's where I believe the 16 personnel files were stored. Personnel 17 security files were stored in the Office of 18 Personnel Security. 19 Q My only other question is when you 20 did visit Mr. Kennedy's office and you 21 testified about the files you might have seen 22 would you describe the quantity of those 437 1 files as being hip high on the floor? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 3 THE WITNESS: Oh, no. Kennedy's 4 office was an office with files but by no 5 means overburdened with files or particularly 6 sloppy or anything like that. There were no 7 files that were hip high. Up to somebody's 8 hip, no. I don't even know if there were any 9 files on the floor. It's possible. That I 10 can't say for sure. I can say for sure I 11 never saw any huge stack of files hip high 12 when I was in Kennedy's office. 13 MS. GILES: That's all I have. 14 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 15 PLAINTIFFS 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You visited Kennedy's office 18 infrequently, correct? 19 A From time to time I visited 20 Kennedy's office. 21 Q Not very much? 22 A No, that's true, not very much, but 438 1 from time to time I was there. I would go 2 over there -- Kennedy and I were -- well, 3 especially after Foster's death. I would go 4 over there more often than I did probably 5 before Foster's death, when I didn't go over 6 there that often. I went over to keep him 7 company at times. 8 He was obviously quite shaken by 9 Foster's death, more so than I because of 10 their long relationship. I had a relatively 11 short relationship with Foster, although it 12 was a close relationship. So I would visit 13 Kennedy's office not to talk about files or 14 even, not even to talk about issues in the 15 Counsel's Office, but just to visit him and 16 chat with him and to see if he was okay and 17 to buck up his spirits and things like that. 18 So I was there a fair amount, but if you say 19 frequently, every day, every other day, no, 20 the answer's no. 21 Q So you don't know whether on those 22 days files might have been stacked up higher, 439 1 correct? 2 A He didn't know when I was coming 3 over. I would walk over from time to time, 4 you know, to check. I don't think he was 5 cleaning out his office before I walked over. 6 Q That wasn't a concern of you, how 7 high his files were? 8 A I think if I walked into an office 9 and seen files stacked hip high, I would 10 think that's kind of strange. 11 Q I never asked you whether you had 12 seen it hip high. I asked you whether you 13 were there and can say categorically on any 14 given day you didn't see files hip high? 15 A When I was there I never saw files 16 hip high and I was there on a periodic basis. 17 Q Besides, hip high depends on the 18 individual, right? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Different for a midget than for 21 somebody else? 22 A That's correct. 440 1 MR. KLAYMAN: No further questions. 2 MR. MAZUR: Everybody done? 3 THE WITNESS: Everybody done? 4 MS. GILES: Yes. 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 6 video record at 5:57. 7 (Whereupon, at 5:57 p.m., the 8 deposition of BERNARD NUSSBAUM 9 was adjourned.) 10 * * * * * 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22