1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Friday, June 4, 1999 12 Deposition of 13 BERNARD NUSSBAUM 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, beginning at 17 approximately 10:06 a.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary 20 public in and for the District of Columbia, 21 when were present on behalf on the respective 22 parties:  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 4 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 5 (202) 646-5172 6 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 7 Office of the President: 8 JULIA FAYNGOLD COVEY, ESQUIRE ALLISON GILES, ESQUIRE 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 Federal Programs Branch Civil Division 11 United States Department of Justice 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor 12 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 14 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE 15 Williams & Connolly 725 12th Street N.W. 16 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5175 17 On behalf of The White House: 18 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE 19 Special Assistant Counsel to the President The White House 20 Washington, D.C. 20500 (202) 456-5079 21 22  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 3 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 4 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 5 (212) 403-1000 6 ALSO PRESENT: 7 Thomas Fitton 8 Eric Columbus Michael Leiter 9 10 11 * * * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7 4 Counsel for Defendants Federal 435 Bureau of Investigation 5 and Executive Office of the President 6 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: 7 Counsel for Plaintiffs 437 8 *Proceedings transcribed at pages 93 to 101 9 designated CONFIDENTIAL and bound separately per request 10 NUSSBAUM DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 11 No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments 7 12 No. 2 - Objections to Subpoena 12 13 No. 3 - Letter, Potts to Nussbaum, 124 14 Attachment 15 No. 4 - Memorandum, Beck to Podesta 288 16 No. 5 - [Not Identified] 311 17 No. 6 - Investigation Report 325 18 No. 7 - Nussbaum Sworn Statement 381 19 No. 8 - Article: "White House 382 Contradicted on FBI Files" 20 No. 9 - File Requisitions 385 21 22 * * * * *  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of Bernard 4 Nussbuam, taken by the counsel for the 5 plaintiff, in the matter of Cara Leslie 6 Alexander et al. v. the Federal Bureau of 7 Investigation et al., in the U.S. District 8 Court for the District of Columbia, Case 9 No. 96-2123, held in the offices of Judicial 10 Watch, 501 School Street Southwest, 11 Washington, D.C., on this date, June 4, 1999, 12 and at the time indicated on the video 13 screen, which is 10:06 a.m. 14 My name is Sylvanus Holley; I'm the 15 videographer. The court reporter today is 16 Joan Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting. 17 Will counsel now introduce 18 themselves? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 20 general counsel and chairman of Judicial 21 Watch. 22 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president,  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 6 1 Judicial Watch. 2 MR. MAZUR: Robert Mazur, Wachtell 3 Lipton Rosen & Katz; I represent 4 Mr. Nussbaum. 5 MS. GILES: Allison Giles with the 6 Justice Department representing Defendants 7 Executive Office of the President and the 8 FBI. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro, 10 from the Department of Justice representing 11 the same Defendants. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, 13 Department of Justice also representing the 14 same Defendants. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 16 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 17 Lady with me. To my left is Michael Leiter, 18 a summer associate at Williams & Connolly. 19 MS. COVEY: Julia Fayngold Covey, 20 Department of Justice, representing the EOP 21 and FBI. 22 Whereupon,  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 7 1 BERNARD W. NUSSBAUM 2 was called as a witness and, having been 3 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 4 as follows: 5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Please state your name. 8 A Bernard W. Nussbuam. 9 Q Mr. Nussbaum, I'm going to show you 10 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 11 Exhibit 1. It is a subpoena duces tecum 12 which has been issued for your attendance 13 here today, June 4, at 10:00 a.m. 14 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 15 No. 1 was marked for 16 identification.) 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you seen this document before? 19 A Yes. 20 Q When did you see it? 21 A Shortly after it arrived in our 22 offices.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 8 1 Q And when was that, approximately? 2 A Shortly after May 28. 3 Q Did you have an opportunity to 4 review the request for documents contained in 5 this subpoena duces tecum? 6 A Yes, I reviewed it with -- I turned 7 -- a copy of the subpoena was given to my 8 attorney, Mr. Mazur, and we reviewed together 9 the request for documents. 10 Q Did you search for documents in 11 response to this subpoena? 12 A Well, this is not the first 13 subpoena. There was a prior subpoena; is 14 that correct? Is that correct? 15 Q I'm asking the questions. 16 A Was there a -- you won't answer 17 whether there's a prior subpoena? All right. 18 It's my understanding, in answer to your 19 question, that there was a prior subpoena, 20 and in connection with that prior subpoena 21 for the production of documents, Mr. Mazur 22 and I also reviewed that together. We read  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 9 1 each of the requests, and then I showed 2 Mr. Mazur where all the documents that may be 3 responsive to the subpoena were. There was 4 files -- some files in my office in New York, 5 some files in different parts of my law firm, 6 and Mr. Mazur and I then examined those 7 various files and produced -- I understand he 8 produced various documents in response to 9 that subpoena. 10 Q So you never checked this subpoena 11 to see if it contained any additional 12 requests or slightly different requests as 13 compared with the prior subpoena? 14 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 15 the question. 16 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, we did. 17 Mr. Mazur checked this subpoena and compared 18 it to the prior subpoena. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q But you didn't do it yourself? 21 A We did it together. We discussed 22 the subpoena together, yes.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 10 1 Q It's your position that this 2 subpoena requires the production of the same 3 documents that the prior subpoena required? 4 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: No, it's not 7 identical to the prior subpoena. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How is it unidentical? 10 A Well, you have to show me the prior 11 subpoena, and I have to go -- 12 Q What I'm asking you is did you 13 search for any additional documents requested 14 in this subpoena that you hadn't searched for 15 in the prior subpoena? 16 A What I did with respect to this 17 subpoena is we looked at a subpoena together, 18 I told Mr. Mazur -- I turned it over to 19 Mr. Mazur at that point, and I said to 20 Mr. Mazur we had done a prior search of 21 documents together in response to the prior 22 subpoena. You know where my documents are.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 11 1 They're still in the same place that they 2 were before. If there's any additional 3 documents that are required to be turned over 4 by this subpoena and they're not privileged 5 or anything, then turn them over. 6 MR. MAZUR: If it could be helpful, 7 we have determined that there are no 8 additional documents that need to be produced 9 in response to this subpoena, given 10 objections that we have to the subpoena, and 11 these are the objections that we have to the 12 subpoena. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: These are the new 14 objections? 15 MR. MAZUR: Objections to the new 16 subpoena, not the old subpoena. We have 17 previously objected, responded, and produced 18 documents in response to the old subpoena, 19 and this is what we have to say about the new 20 one. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have copies of 22 this for the other parties here?  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 12 1 MR. MAZUR: Yes, I do. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that these 3 objections be marked as Exhibit 2. 4 (Nussbaum Deposition Exhibit 5 No. 2 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mazur, were there 8 any documents that were required to be 9 produced by this new subpoena that you call 10 it on June 4, which is today, which you are 11 claiming privilege on and for which a 12 privilege log should be produced? 13 MR. MAZUR: I don't know the answer 14 to the question. This subpoena arrived in 15 our office apparently on Saturday. I did not 16 become aware of this subpoena until Tuesday, 17 Monday being Memorial Day, and Mr. Nussbaum 18 didn't become aware of it until Tuesday, two 19 days before the deposition, with the Gorham 20 deposition in between. We are satisfied that 21 there are no documents that Mr. Nussbaum has 22 that are responsive to this subpoena.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 13 1 They're in effect Mr. Nussbaum's 2 personal documents, no additional ones. As I 3 think we advised you, we construed the prior 4 subpoena as reaching not only his personal 5 documents but also reaching documents that 6 our law firm had. What we have are things 7 that were either gathered or created as a 8 result of the various investigations and 9 indeed is real to this case. 10 So, obviously, we have things that 11 are responsive to this subpoena which we 12 received in pleadings and stuff from all the 13 people in his room. We did not have time to 14 do a complete listing of all of these 15 privileged documents, and I assume you don't 16 want us to list internal work product that we 17 have in this case on a privilege log. 18 To get more specific, the new items 19 appear to be things related to Kathleen 20 Willey and the release of information about 21 her by The White House, and Mr. Nussbaum has 22 nothing about that. The other new item, I  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 14 1 think, was Linda Tripp's Defense Department 2 file, and again that was all after 3 Mr. Nussbaum left The White House, and we 4 don't have anything relating to that that 5 didn't come to us in the course of the 6 representation in this case. 7 The other item that was new, I 8 believe, was removal of documents from Vince 9 Foster's office. We have thousands of 10 documents at Wachtell, Lipton relating to 11 that subject by virtue of Congressional 12 hearings and things like that. We don't 13 really regard that as being relevant to this 14 case. 15 We probably have privileged 16 documents in that category. It would take 17 not hours or days but weeks to produce a 18 privilege log on that subject, which we 19 regard to be irrelevant to this case. 20 So the answer to your question is I 21 believe we have privileged documents and 22 certainly work product that relate to that  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 15 1 subject and we haven't produced a log, and if 2 it's necessary we will produce a log, but we 3 couldn't do it consistent with the timing of 4 this deposition. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, for purposes of 6 this deposition I understand your position. 7 With regard to the issues concerning the 8 removal of documents from Vince Foster's 9 office, perhaps I could discuss that 10 preliminarily with you if Mr. Nussbaum would 11 be so kind as to go into the other room 12 because it may bear on some of the testimony. 13 MR. MAZUR: He'll answer questions 14 about that. We're not saying he won't answer 15 questions. You're asking about a privilege 16 log. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Let me ask you this. Have you read 19 Linda Tripp's deposition in this case, 20 Mr. Nussbaum? 21 A No. 22 Q Can I ask you to go into the other  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ    0*0*0* 16 1 room so I can discuss this briefly with you? 2 MR. MAZUR: Sure. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: I'll show him the 4 way. I will not talk to him about the case. 5 Mr. Nussbaum, let me take you to the cone of 6 silence. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: The cone of silence, 8 it is? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for purposes of 11 the record, you've read Linda Tripp's 12 deposition, haven't you? 13 MR. MAZUR: I was here for most of 14 it. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: You're aware that she 16 testified that she saw FBI files of Dale and 17 others in that office? 18 MR. MAZUR: Correct. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: That obviously makes 20 the whole issue relevant to this case. This 21 is something which became much more relevant 22 after her testimony, and that's why we need  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 17 1 to get documents and testimony about that 2 issue, what was removed from Vince Foster's 3 office. 4 MR. MAZUR: Let me say that the 5 timing of that meeting was supposedly around 6 the timing of the Travel Office firings, and 7 you can ask him questions about that and 8 he'll answer the questions. I don't think we 9 have any documents relating to that subject. 10 The Foster office removal of documents issues 11 I'm talking about relate to the time of his 12 death, which is separated in time, and I'm 13 not saying he won't testify about that. I'm 14 saying we got off on this because you asked 15 about a privilege log. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand. We 17 don't know all of the time frames. We just 18 know a snapshot from Linda Tripp. She 19 clearly makes this a relevant issue. I 20 understand you may need more time. Can you 21 get back to me quickly as to how much time 22 you need to go through all your documents on  h)! 0*0*0* Ԍ   " 0*0*0* 18 1 the removal of documents from Vince Foster's 2 office? 3 MR. MAZUR: In response to the 4 subpoena, we object to producing the 5 documents relating to the removal of 6 documents from Foster's office. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: You're going to take 8 a firm position on that? You're going to 9 require us to file a motion to compel on 10 that? 11 MR. MAZUR: I can't tell you 12 whether we're going to do that. I can tell 13 you we're not going to do it between now and 14 the completion -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Understood. Just 16 tell me how much time you need so we can 17 alleviate the issue and not have to burden 18 the court with a motion to compel. 19 MR. MAZUR: When we get back to the 20 New York, I'll take a look at the volume of 21 it. It wouldn't involve any more documents 22 to you that you don't have. It would involve  h)# 0*0*0* Ԍ   $ 0*0*0* 19 1 a privilege log and a very extensive 2 privilege log. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: It may involve 4 documents we don't have because obviously you 5 didn't view this as part of the case until we 6 sent this subpoena to you. I know you still 7 don't view it as part of the case, but our 8 position is it's relevant. I can only assume 9 you've never searched for documents related 10 to what was removed from Foster's office. 11 MR. MAZUR: It is correct that we 12 did not search for those documents. What I'm 13 telling you is, as you know, there were 14 congressional hearings and other proceedings 15 relating to the removal of documents from 16 Foster's office. My law firm represented 17 Mr. Nussbaum in connection with those 18 matters. 19 We obtained in the course of that 20 representation numerous documents relating to 21 the removal of things from Foster's office. 22 The vast bulk of them are in the nature of  h)% 0*0*0* Ԍ   & 0*0*0* 20 1 deposition testimony, congressional hearing 2 testimony, and documents that were marked as 3 exhibits and that we obtained in some 4 congressional hearing where somebody said, 5 here's the exhibits. 6 And I'm saying all of that is 7 probably on the Internet. We think probably 8 you have all of that stuff here. What I'm 9 trying to tell you is, if you take away that 10 category of things, namely, things that 11 became public in that matter, I think he 12 doesn't have any documents. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: But he may and it may 14 not just be limited to those categories, so 15 you have to do a search, and the fact that it 16 was done in other proceedings, we've 17 uncovered many things in this case that have 18 not been uncovered in other proceedings. 19 MR. MAZUR: He doesn't have 20 documents relating to removal of documents 21 from Foster's office that we did not obtain 22 through other public proceedings.  h)' 0*0*0* Ԍ   ( 0*0*0* 21 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I understand what 2 your firm doesn't have but he may have other 3 documents. Anyway, let's bring him back. 4 MS. GILES: We disagree with your 5 theory of relevancy as to Mr. Foster. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sure you do. I 7 think we can stipulate that we disagree to 8 every aspect of this case. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Mr. Nussbaum, when you were working 11 at The White House, what were the dates that 12 you were employed there? 13 A January 20, 1993, until April 5, 14 1994. I resigned on March 5, 1994, but I 15 stayed on for a period of weeks thereafter. 16 I think my official termination date was 17 April 5, 1994. 18 Q And during the time that you worked 19 at The White House, where did you reside? 20 A I resided -- most of the time I 21 worked at the White House, I resided at the 22 Watergate, not the hotel. I had an apartment  h)) 0*0*0* Ԍ   * 0*0*0* 22 1 there. For a short time I lived in a hotel, 2 not the Watergate hotel, another hotel, prior 3 to moving into the Watergate. 4 Q What hotel was that? 5 A The Jefferson. 6 Q And during the time you worked in 7 The White House I take it you stayed at the 8 Watergate Hotel or the Jefferson Hotel when 9 you were in Washington, D.C.? 10 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 11 the question. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q When you were in Washington, D.C.? 14 A Prior to the time I worked in The 15 White House? 16 Q No, when you were at The White 17 House, during the period. 18 A During the period I worked at The 19 White House I stayed first at the Jefferson 20 Hotel for about a month and then I rented an 21 apartment at the Watergate Apartments, and I 22 stayed there.  h)+ 0*0*0* Ԍ   , 0*0*0* 23 1 Q But you periodically also traveled 2 back to the New York area? 3 A Oh, yes. 4 Q And where did you reside in the New 5 York area during the period you worked at The 6 White House? 7 A I have an apartment in Manhattan, 8 and I have a house in Westchester County. At 9 one point I rented the apartment so I didn't 10 reside there. I would stay at my house in 11 Westchester County if I went back to 12 Manhattan -- if I went back to New York City. 13 Q During the time that you worked in 14 The White House, I take it that sometimes you 15 took documents home at night? 16 A Very rarely. 17 Q But you did? You had a briefcase, 18 correct? 19 A I rarely -- I had a briefcase, yes. 20 I rarely took documents at home at night out 21 of The White House. I worked long hours and 22 when I went home I didn't need documents at  h)- 0*0*0* Ԍ   . 0*0*0* 24 1 that point. I'm not saying I never took a 2 document home. I may have taken a document 3 at home one time to work on it. It's 4 possible. I don't remember it, actually, 5 because I recall when I left the office at 6 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00 or o'clock there was no 7 need to take a document home. I'd be there 8 at 6:30 or 7:00 o'clock I'd start working 9 again so I rarely took documents home. 10 Q Did you search any of your 11 residences for documents which are responsive 12 to Judicial Watch's subpoenas? 13 A I know there are no documents in my 14 residences because I never took any documents 15 to my residence which would be responsible to 16 Judicial Watch subpoenas. 17 Q But the answer is you never 18 searched those residences? 19 A I never searched those residences 20 for documents because I know there are no 21 documents there. 22 Q During the time that you worked in  h)/ 0*0*0* Ԍ   0 0*0*0* 25 1 The White House did you have a laptop 2 computer? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you have a computer at any of 5 your residences, or did you sometimes go into 6 your old office at Wachtell, Lipton and work 7 there? 8 A No, I never did. 9 Q Never went there once? 10 A I may have gone there once, but I 11 never went there to work. I might have done 12 it to visit people, maybe once. 13 Q Did you ever use a computer outside 14 of The White House during that period? 15 A No, I don't use a computer, 16 Mr. Klayman. 17 Q Did you ever send documents outside 18 of The White House when you worked in The 19 White House, by e-mail? 20 A No. 21 Q I take it you did mail documents 22 out of The White House and have them hand  h)1 0*0*0* Ԍ   2 0*0*0* 26 1 delivered? 2 A Sure, I mailed letters and things 3 like that. 4 Q Did you ever have any of those 5 documents delivered to your residences or 6 your old law firm? 7 A No. 8 Q During the time that you worked in 9 The White House, who was your secretary? 10 A I had a number of secretaries. 11 Q In other words, who would prepare 12 documents for you? 13 A Various people would. 14 Q I take it, since you don't use a 15 computer, you dictate correspondence? 16 A Yes. 17 Q On a Dictaphone or did you have 18 people take it shorthand? 19 A Shorthand. 20 Q Who worked for you during that 21 period that helped you prepare documents when 22 you worked in The White House?  h)3 0*0*0* Ԍ   4 0*0*0* 27 1 A Who I remember are Cynthia McManus 2 -- I believe that was her name. There may 3 have been somebody before that. I went 4 through a number of secretaries in the first 5 two or three months. One of them was Cynthia 6 McManus and then -- 7 Q Do you know where Cynthia is today? 8 A I don't know where she is today. 9 Then -- I believe that's her name. I'm not 10 even 100-percent positive it's her name. 11 Then Betsy Pond came to work for me, and then 12 Linda Tripp came to work for me, Deborah 13 Gorham worked in that office, and while I 14 didn't use Deborah Gorham a lot I may have 15 used her from time to time. 16 The people who I primarily remember 17 working with for virtually most of my stay in 18 The White House were Betsy Pond and Linda 19 Tripp. I would dictate to them, and they 20 would prepare the letters or any other 21 document that I had typed. 22 Q I take it they kept chron files for  h)5 0*0*0* Ԍ   6 0*0*0* 28 1 you of correspondence that went out? 2 A I believe so, yes. 3 Q Did you keep copies of the chron 4 files yourself when you left The White House? 5 Did you take your chron -- 6 A The only thing I remember taking 7 when I left The White House is personal 8 correspondence files, people writing me 9 letters congratulating me on becoming White 10 House counsel, friends writing me while I was 11 in The White House, and my responses, you 12 know, to those letters. 13 That's the only documents I 14 remember taking from The White House, you 15 know, from my files. It's possible that I 16 took -- if I took any other documents from 17 the White House, copies of those documents 18 would have been left remaining in The White 19 House. I don't remember at this moment 20 taking any other documents, but I presume I 21 may have taken other documents from the White 22 House. But I certainly didn't take any  h)7 0*0*0* Ԍ   8 0*0*0* 29 1 document out of The White House of which 2 there's not a copy in The White House other 3 than personal correspondence. 4 Q What is the reason that you 5 resigned on March 5, 1994, or reasons? 6 A Well, I resigned because I had 7 become a very controversial figure in 8 Washington at that point. There were all 9 sorts -- the press was critical of what it 10 perceived to be, you know, some of my 11 conduct, you know, wrongly critical. I think 12 my conduct was proper in every respect, and I 13 think the President and I concluded -- 14 certainly the President concluded that I 15 became an impediment to him getting on with 16 his agenda, which at that time a big portion 17 was health care and things like that, and 18 that if I left, it would be easier for him to 19 get on with his agenda rather than, you 20 know -- 21 Q So he asked you to resign? 22 A Yes, he asked me to resign.  h)9 0*0*0* Ԍ   : 0*0*0* 30 1 Q You were being accused of all kinds 2 of things during that period? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And as a lawyer of many years, a 5 litigator, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q A renowned litigator? 8 A A notorious litigator. And 9 notorious White House counsel now. 10 Q You obviously wanted to keep some 11 documents to protect yourself, correct? 12 A No. 13 Q You had a concern that people at 14 The White House could make you the fall guy 15 for things? 16 A No, not particularly. It's 17 possible but not particularly. I had no such 18 concern. 19 Q Did you ever before you left The 20 White House say I'd like to keep these 21 documents just to have them for my records so 22 I can protect myself in the future if I'm  h); 0*0*0* Ԍ   < 0*0*0* 31 1 unjustly accused? 2 A No, I wasn't concerned about people 3 in The White House unjustly accusing me of 4 anything. If they did, they did. Was it 5 possible? Sure, it's possible. I wasn't 6 concerned about being accused of anything 7 because I did nothing which was improper. 8 Q For instance, your name appears on 9 the FBI requisition forms, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And it's always been your position, 12 correct me if I'm wrong, that you don't know 13 how your name got there? 14 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 15 the question. 16 MS. GILES: Join the objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I now know how -- 18 I now know how my name got there. When I was 19 in The White House, I didn't even know about 20 the FBI requisition forms, but now, of 21 course, as a result of the hearings that have 22 taken place I do know about the FBI  h)= 0*0*0* Ԍ   > 0*0*0* 32 1 requisition forms, and I know that it's been 2 traditional in every administration for the 3 name of The White House counsel, whoever he 4 was, his name to be typed on to that form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Well, your position today is that 7 you know that your name was used on those 8 requisition forms? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And your position is that it was 11 used on that requisition form as a matter of 12 procedure? 13 A Correct. 14 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 15 the question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q But the hard fact is that your name 18 was used, according to your position, without 19 your knowledge, correct? 20 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 THE WITNESS: My instructions were  h)? 0*0*0* Ԍ   @ 0*0*0* 33 1 -- used without my knowledge? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Yes. 4 A Yes, but my instructions to my 5 staff were when we first came in with respect 6 to various procedures was to follow the 7 procedures of the prior administration, what 8 people did in the past. 9 Q We're going to get into the 10 substance of it later, but what I'm saying is 11 from your perspective, what you believe to be 12 the case today, according to what you've said 13 publicly, what you've just now said in this 14 deposition is that people in The White House 15 were using your name without you knowing 16 about it, correct? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to form. 18 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 19 the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I did not know that 21 my name was being put on the requisition 22 forms which were sent to the FBI. I did know  h)A 0*0*0* Ԍ   B 0*0*0* 34 1 that I instructed my staff to follow prior 2 procedures of prior administrations, and if 3 in fact a procedure of the prior 4 administration was to put The White House 5 counsel's name on the requisition form that 6 was fine with me. But if you ask me did I 7 know it at the time that my name was actually 8 being typed on those forms or printed on 9 those forms the answer is no. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q At the point you learned that, that 12 was shortly after Filegate broke you learned 13 that? 14 A Yes. 15 Q By the way, how do you describe 16 Filegate? I want to be able to have an easy 17 way of explaining this whole controversy. 18 You understand what Filegate is when I refer 19 to that, correct? 20 A Well, Filegate is the allegation 21 that The White House deliberately, knowingly 22 secured or requested and secured FBI files of  h)C 0*0*0* Ԍ   D 0*0*0* 35 1 members of the opposite party in an effort to 2 gather information to be used to discredit 3 those people. That's Filegate. That's the 4 allegation of Filegate. That is an absolute 5 falsehood. Filegate is a phantom scandal. 6 There is no such thing as Filegate other than 7 the people's furtive imagination, but if you 8 want the definition of this nonexistent 9 scandal, that's the definition. 10 Q Given the fact that things were 11 happening that you didn't know about, such as 12 your name being used on requisition forms, 13 given your position that you didn't know 14 about that at the time you worked at The 15 White House but only found out later, then 16 you can't tell us, can you, Mr. Nussbaum, 17 that that's a phantom scandal? 18 A Yes, I can. 19 Q Because your position is you didn't 20 have control of the people that were doing 21 it? 22 MS. GILES: Objection to form.  h)E 0*0*0* Ԍ   F 0*0*0* 36 1 THE WITNESS: I had control of the 2 people and I had knowledge of the people and 3 had great confidence in the people and I 4 still have great confidence in the people. 5 What you're talking about is a mere 6 procedural detail of whose name is printed on 7 a form. I knew The White House requisitioned 8 when we appointed new people for the 9 administration and we ordered background 10 checks. 11 I knew that The White House 12 requested background checks on people. I 13 knew that The White House received forms -- 14 received FBI reports or summary reports with 15 respect to those people, but I never saw the 16 form. I didn't know what was typed on the 17 form. I didn't know the language of the 18 form. But that doesn't mean that I didn't 19 have control of the people, nor does it mean 20 that, you know, that I would know one way or 21 another whether our people were doing 22 anything improper.  h)G 0*0*0* Ԍ   H 0*0*0* 37 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You just said you had great 3 confidence in the people, correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q You had great confidence in Craig 6 Livingstone? 7 A I had great confidence in Bill 8 Kennedy and in Betsy Pond and in Deborah 9 Gorham. Craig Livingstone I did not know as 10 well. He worked for Bill Kennedy. I didn't 11 have a lot of contact with Craig Livingstone, 12 but from the little contact with Craig 13 Livingstone I never saw him do or say 14 anything improper in any way. 15 Q Well, you just testified you still 16 have great confidence in those people, 17 correct? 18 A Oh, yes. 19 Q You've read all the material or a 20 lot of it dealing with Filegate since you've 21 left The White House, correct? 22 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of  h)I 0*0*0* Ԍ   J 0*0*0* 38 1 the question. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I've read 3 material dealing with Filegate. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You've learned that Craig 6 Livingstone was a bar bouncer? He had no 7 security experience, correct? 8 MS. GILES: Objection. Leading, 9 argumentative. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether 11 that's true or not. I've read that, yes. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You've learned that Craig 14 Livingstone, according to police reports 15 threatened to bash in the face of his 16 next-door neighbor? 17 A I don't know if that's true or not. 18 Q But you've read that? 19 A I've read a lot of things that 20 aren't true. 21 Q You've read the House report on 22 Filegate?  h)K 0*0*0* Ԍ   L 0*0*0* 39 1 A No. 2 Q You're aware that Craig Livingstone 3 went around The White House bragging I was 4 hired by Hillary Clinton? You're aware of 5 that, aren't you? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of 9 that. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You're aware that Craig Livingstone 12 is somebody who at one point there was 13 discussion as to whether he should be let go, 14 correct? 15 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 16 the question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q While you were at The White House? 19 A No, I don't recall at this point 20 that discussion. 21 Q You're aware from what you've 22 learned since then that Craig Livingstone was  h)M 0*0*0* Ԍ   N 0*0*0* 40 1 in charge of having people go around the 2 country during the election in 1992 in 3 chicken suits, correct? 4 A I'm not aware of that. 5 Q You're aware that Craig Livingstone 6 was the director of the office of security 7 personnel, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q He wasn't some lackey, was he? 10 A No. 11 Q He had a substantial position, 12 correct? 13 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Correct? 17 A It was an administrative position. 18 Q Under your direct control as White 19 House counsel, correct? 20 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 MS. GILES: Object to the form.  h)O 0*0*0* Ԍ   P 0*0*0* 41 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Correct? 3 A He was in the chain of command, 4 yes. 5 Q Now, you don't still have great 6 confidence in Craig Livingstone, do you? 7 A Actually, I do. 8 Q Why? 9 A Because I think he was a good, 10 decent, hard-working person, and I don't know 11 of anything wrong that he's ever done. I 12 personally don't know of anything wrong he's 13 ever done. 14 Q Now, when you learned more 15 information about what occurred in Filegate 16 after you'd left, you did ask people at The 17 White House what have you learned about 18 Filegate, what happened here? You did make 19 such inquiries, didn't you? 20 A Yes, I made an inquiry to Bill 21 Kennedy. 22 Q And when did you do that?  h)Q 0*0*0* Ԍ   R 0*0*0* 42 1 A Shortly after the form came out 2 which showed that a request was made for 3 Billy Dale's file and my name was on the 4 form, and I had never seen this form before 5 and never known my name was being used on it 6 before. So I got a copy of it -- it became 7 public, and I faxed it to Kennedy, and I 8 said, you know, what's this all about? 9 What's this form all about? 10 And then I had a conversation with 11 Kennedy. He told me what the form was. The 12 form was a form that was used by the Office 13 of Personnel Security to request FBI files 14 when we wanted FBI files with respect to 15 potential nominees or appointees in The White 16 House. 17 Q Who called who? Did you call 18 Kennedy or did he call you? 19 A I think I called him first when 20 this thing came out and I saw the form. 21 Q And he faxed you that form? 22 A He didn't fax me that form. I  h)S 0*0*0* Ԍ   T 0*0*0* 43 1 obtained a copy of the form -- I believe this 2 to be correct. I obtained a copy of the form 3 and I faxed it to him, and then I talked to 4 him after he got to say, you know, what's 5 this form all about? We use this kind of 6 form and why are we requesting, you know, 7 Billy Dale's name, Billy Dale's file, why was 8 the office requesting Billy Dale's file. 9 And he explained that the form was 10 a form that was used to request FBI files, 11 that my name had been typed on it or printed 12 on it as a matter of form, as had prior 13 administrations done the same thing, and all 14 they were doing was doing what prior 15 administrations did. And he didn't know why 16 Billy Dale's file, you know, was requested. 17 Now we know why, because they were working 18 off an erroneous Secret Service list, but 19 that's a separate issue. 20 Q How did you get a copy of the form? 21 A I don't remember. It became -- 22 Representative Clinger released it or he had  h)U 0*0*0* Ԍ   V 0*0*0* 44 1 a press conference and gave it to the press 2 and it became part of the public record and I 3 obtained a copy presumably by calling 4 Washington and having the copy sent to me. 5 Q Did you get any other documents 6 after you left The White House about Filegate 7 from any source? 8 A I don't know. Did I personally get 9 any other documents? No. Obviously, in 10 comparing the testimony -- I testified about 11 Filegate before the House, and in preparing 12 for that testimony my lawyers may have 13 obtained documents from the public record 14 with respect to this matter. 15 Q Since you left The White House, who 16 have you had contact with at The White House 17 where you discussed Filegate? You just 18 mentioned Kennedy. 19 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 20 the question. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall having 22 contact with anybody at The White House with  h)W 0*0*0* Ԍ   X 0*0*0* 45 1 respect to Filegate after I left The White 2 House. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Nobody? 5 A I personally, nobody. My lawyers 6 may have been in touch with The White House 7 Counsel's Office in preparing for my 8 testimony. Obviously, we were trying to find 9 out as many facts as we could so I would be 10 fully prepared to testify before the House 11 committee, but I don't recall any 12 conversations about Filegate with anybody in 13 The White House. 14 Q When you had the conversation with 15 Kennedy, had he already left The White House? 16 A By Filegate we're talking about 17 this allegation I defined before, what I 18 consider that false allegation. I didn't 19 discuss that false allegation with anybody at 20 The White House. 21 Q I understand that you claim the 22 allegation's a phantom allegation.  h)Y 0*0*0* Ԍ   Z 0*0*0* 46 1 A It's a false allegation. 2 Q I'm not interested, for purposes of 3 this question, what you think about that 4 allegation, but did you discuss it with 5 anybody at The White House? 6 A I understand your question. I 7 don't recall discussing the allegation with 8 anybody at The White House. 9 Q Where was Kennedy when you had the 10 discussion with him? 11 A Oh, he was not in The White House 12 at that time. 13 Q He was back at the Rose Law Firm? 14 A He was in Arkansas. 15 Q Did you discuss the allegation with 16 anybody at the Rose Law Firm? 17 A No. 18 MR. MAZUR: Other than Kennedy? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Other than Kennedy. You knew other 21 people at the Rose Law Firm, didn't you? 22 A I've met other people at the Rose  h)[ 0*0*0* Ԍ   \ 0*0*0* 47 1 Law Firm but I really don't know them. 2 Q Who have you met? 3 A I don't remember their names. I 4 met Clark, I think his name is, the -- he was 5 the managing partner or is the managing 6 partner. I've been in Arkansas on a number 7 of occasions, and I've met people at social 8 events from the Rose Law Firm. 9 Q During the time that you were White 10 House counsel, who from the Rose Law Firm 11 contacted that office from time to time? 12 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Or ever? 15 A No one that I recall from the Rose 16 Law Firm contacted me during that time. 17 Obviously, I was working with people who 18 worked previously for the Rose Law Firm, 19 Kennedy, Foster, but I wasn't in contact with 20 the Rose Law Firm during that time. 21 Presumably, Kennedy and Foster may have been 22 in contact with former colleagues from time  h)] 0*0*0* Ԍ   ^ 0*0*0* 48 1 to time but I don't know. 2 Q What colleagues were they in 3 contact with? Surely you must know one. 4 A No. I'm speculating they spoke to 5 their former -- I spoke to my former 6 partners, so I'm sure they spoke to their 7 former partners. They were friends with 8 their former partners. I'm sure they were in 9 contact. I don't know who they were in 10 contact with. 11 Q Are your present partners giving 12 you free legal representation in this case? 13 A My present partners are not 14 charging me for legal representation, that's 15 correct. 16 Q Do you know if anybody's paying 17 those legal fees? 18 A If anybody's paying my legal fees? 19 No, no one's paying my legal fees, but my 20 firm is representing me pro bono. 21 Q Now, who was Kennedy most friendly 22 with at the Rose Law Firm after he came to  h)_ 0*0*0* Ԍ   ` 0*0*0* 49 1 Washington? 2 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 3 THE WITNESS: After he came to 4 Washington? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Yes. 7 A I don't know. 8 Q Did you ever observe Kennedy with 9 any friends from Arkansas that came to visit 10 him in Washington? 11 A I may have but I have no memory at 12 this time. It's possible that people came to 13 visit him just as people came to visit me 14 from New York from time to time. 15 Q Did he have friends in Washington, 16 Kennedy, people that he'd go out to dinner 17 with or have a drink with? 18 A Sure. 19 Q Who were some of those people? 20 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 21 THE WITNESS: Did Kennedy have 22 friends in Washington? I tell you we were  h)a 0*0*0* Ԍ   b 0*0*0* 50 1 working all the time, so there was not a lot 2 of time to go out to dinner with friends. I 3 don't know. I mean, I presume -- you know, 4 Kennedy had worked in Washington previously. 5 He'd worked for Senator McClellan in the 6 '70s. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Where did Kennedy live when he 9 worked in Washington? 10 A I don't know the address where he 11 lived. I think he rented a small house. He 12 had a wife and a couple children at the time. 13 Q Did he get divorced during that 14 period in Washington? 15 A I don't know if he was divorced 16 during the period in Washington, but toward 17 the end of the period or shortly thereafter 18 he did split from his wife, separate from his 19 wife, divorce his wife. 20 Q Did he ever tell you that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Was it an amicable arrangement?  h)c 0*0*0* Ԍ   d 0*0*0* 51 1 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 2 Intrusiveness. 3 MR. MAZUR: Objection relevancy. 4 THE WITNESS: It was not amicable. 5 Should I answer the question? 6 MR. MAZUR: Yes. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Now, did you ever discuss Filegate 9 with George Stephanopoulos after you left The 10 White House? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you had any discussions with 13 Stephanopoulos since you've left The White 14 House? 15 A Not many. I've met him once or 16 twice at social occasions, big party or 17 something like that. 18 Q Did you go to his recent book 19 signing? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever discuss any White 22 House controversy with him? I'll call them  h)e 0*0*0* Ԍ   f 0*0*0* 52 1 controversies like CNN does to be amicable 2 here today. Any controversies? 3 MR. MAZUR: Discussions with 4 Stephanopoulos? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 6 THE WITNESS: I think I once ran 7 into Stephanopoulos at a restaurant in 8 Washington when I was in Washington on a 9 visit, and he sort of just shook hands and 10 sort of kidded me. It was right after Blood 11 Sport came out and he had something about 12 Blood Sport. He said, boy, you really -- you 13 really gave it to me or something like that 14 in Blood Sport. 15 It was -- I think he was alluding 16 to the battle we had which is reported in 17 Blood Sport as to whether an independent 18 counsel should be sought by the 19 administration, and I was vehemently opposed, 20 claiming it would not be a good idea. And he 21 was supportive of doing it, and that debate 22 between the two of us was described in Blood  h)g 0*0*0* Ԍ   h 0*0*0* 53 1 Sport. 2 Q Did you ever discuss anything about 3 Filegate with -- 4 A No, I never did. 5 Q With Stephanopoulos? 6 MR. MAZUR: Let him finish the 7 question. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You were aware when Stephanopoulos 10 worked in The White House that he was at one 11 time the director of communications? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Correct? Then he was moved to, 14 what was it, special advisor to the 15 President? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And as part of his duties and 18 responsibilities, it was to find out what was 19 going on at The White House so he could 20 communicate with the press. Some people have 21 called that spinning, but that was part of 22 his duties, correct?  h)i 0*0*0* Ԍ   j 0*0*0* 54 1 MS. GILES: Objection as to form. 2 THE WITNESS: Stephanopoulos' 3 duties was to act as a senior advisor to the 4 President after he stepped down -- or stepped 5 up after he was director of communications. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You are aware, however, that was 8 part of his duties, to find out what went on 9 so he knew how to deal with it with the 10 media? 11 A When he was director of 12 communications, that certainly was part of 13 his duties, to know what was going on so he 14 could deal with the media, and to some extent 15 I guess it's fair to say that that continued 16 after he became a senior advisor to the 17 President. 18 Q And you're aware that he took part 19 in gathering information about the Travelgate 20 controversy? 21 A That was while he was director of 22 communications.  h)k 0*0*0* Ԍ   l 0*0*0* 55 1 Q And you are aware that the 2 Travelgate controversy is what spawned the 3 Filegate controversy, the discovery of the 4 Dale file at The White House, correct? 5 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 6 the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't think the 8 Travelgate spawned the Filegate controversy. 9 The Travelgate controversy was one 10 controversy which is another phantom 11 allegation, false, and the Filegate 12 controversy is a similarly false and phantom 13 allegation, but, you know, that's life. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Is it your position that every 16 Clinton controversy is phantom? 17 A No. 18 Q Is there one that you consider to 19 be legitimate? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Which one's that? 22 A Lewinsky.  h)m 0*0*0* Ԍ   n 0*0*0* 56 1 Q Any one other than that? 2 A No, none other than that. 3 Q Why did you consider Lewinsky to be 4 legitimate? 5 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 6 THE WITNESS: Because obviously the 7 president has acknowledged inappropriate 8 conduct with a young woman at The White 9 House, and I think legitimate arguments have 10 been made with respect to the nature of his 11 testimony and public statements with respect 12 to that conduct after the conduct took place. 13 So I think that's a legitimate controversy. 14 I don't think that was a phantom controversy. 15 I think people had a right to be very 16 critical of the President with respect to his 17 conduct in that matter. I mean, the 18 President himself if he was sitting here 19 would acknowledge that. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And the reason you're taking the 22 position that's legitimate is because the  h)o 0*0*0* Ԍ   p 0*0*0* 57 1 President himself has admitted to misconduct? 2 A No, that's not the reason I'm 3 taking it. Even if the President hadn't 4 admitted it, if he did it and wasn't totally 5 candid about it, it would be legitimate 6 regardless of whether he admitted. That's 7 not the reason I'm taking that position. I'm 8 taking that position because that was a real, 9 true controversy. The others are phantoms. 10 Q In the Travelgate controversy, it 11 was the discovery of FBI material concerning 12 Billy Dale in The White House by the Clinger 13 committee which gave rise to this controversy 14 we know as Filegate? 15 A No, the Clinger committee 16 discovered that, as a result of investigating 17 the Travelgate issue, discovered that files 18 were erroneously requested from the FBI with 19 respect to a number of people, including 20 Billy Dale, yes. That's how the Filegate 21 controversy emerged. 22 It emerged as a result of the  h)q 0*0*0* Ԍ   r 0*0*0* 58 1 Clinger investigation of the Travelgate 2 controversy, but it really had nothing to do 3 with the Travelgate controversy. It's a 4 whole separate series of an administrative 5 screw-up caused primarily, you know, by the 6 use of an erroneous Secret Service list. 7 Q So Travelgate was an erroneous 8 screw-up, correct? 9 A Travelgate was not -- 10 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 THE WITNESS: Travelgate was not an 13 erroneous screw-up. Travelgate was a 14 situation in which a number of people in the 15 Travel Office were dismissed as a result of a 16 report conducted or a quick audit conducted 17 by independent public accountants which found 18 irregularities in the Travel Office, and The 19 White House determined as a result of that to 20 dismiss these people who were acting either 21 in an improper or an incompetent fashion. 22 That's Travelgate.  h)s 0*0*0* Ԍ   t 0*0*0* 59 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you play any role in the facts 3 involved in Travelgate? 4 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: No. Only after the 7 employees were dismissed, as a result of the 8 Peat, Marwick report, the independent 9 accountant I was referring to before, and it 10 became a big public controversy. Then did I 11 become somewhat involved in that matter, but 12 the matter was handled in our office prior to 13 that by Vince Foster and Bill Kennedy. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you know that the Travel Office 16 employees were going to be dismissed before 17 they were dismissed? 18 A Shortly before they were dismissed, 19 I knew they were going to be dismissed right 20 before because Foster told me that The White 21 House had made a determination as a result of 22 the Peat, Marwick report to dismiss those  h)u 0*0*0* Ԍ   v 0*0*0* 60 1 employees. And I asked, you know, what was 2 the basis of the dismissal, and he said well, 3 we had sent in Peat, Marwick and they 4 examined the way the office was being run in 5 an incompetent fashion and The White House 6 has determined to dismiss them. That's what 7 I knew about the dismissal. 8 Q You asked to see a copy of that 9 report? 10 A No, I don't think I saw a copy of 11 that report or I saw a copy of that right 12 shortly thereafter. When it became a 13 controversy I certainly read the report. 14 Q During the period leading up to the 15 dismissal of the Travel Office employees, you 16 did discuss this issue with Hillary Clinton? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 18 of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 22 played a role in the dismissal of the Travel  h)w 0*0*0* Ԍ   x 0*0*0* 61 1 Office employees? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 MS. GILES: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of 6 that. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You're not aware of any aspect of 9 any role that she played in dismissal of the 10 Travel Office employees? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: Look, I'm aware, you 13 know, as a result of a lot of hearings I am 14 aware that she had conversations with respect 15 to the Travel Office with various people in 16 The White House, including David Watkins, 17 including members of the chief of staff's 18 office, including people in my office, Vince 19 Foster. So I'm aware she was aware that 20 there was an independent audit being done of 21 the Travel Office and that that audit found 22 irregularities which warranted the dismissal  h)y 0*0*0* Ԍ   z 0*0*0* 62 1 of these people. So to that extent I'm 2 aware, you know, that she was aware of that 3 fact. 4 MS. GILES: Object to further 5 questions on the Travel Office matter. I 6 would hope you would limit your questions to 7 the category that the judge has carved out 8 and I object to the rest as beyond the scope 9 of the judge's order. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You are aware that the Travel 12 Office staff, the decision was made to 13 dismiss them before the Peat, Marwick report 14 was completed? 15 A No, there was no decision to 16 dismiss them before the Peat, Marwick report 17 was completed. 18 Q You are aware that Hillary Clinton 19 had had with your office either by phone or 20 in person or written communications 21 concerning the Travel Office before those 22 employees were dismissed?  h){ 0*0*0* Ԍ   | 0*0*0* 63 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: There may have been 3 communications by Hillary Clinton with 4 members of my office and with Mr. Foster with 5 respect to the Travel Office employees prior 6 to the completion of the audit. But I 7 believe and I believe it on the basis of my 8 discussions with Foster that no decision had 9 been made at any time to dismiss anybody from 10 the Travel Office until we had an independent 11 audit of that office conducted by people we 12 could trust such as Peat, Marwick or people 13 we could trust because of their distinction 14 and their independence and their competence 15 and their skill. And no decision had been 16 made to dismiss anybody from the Travel 17 Office until we had the results of that 18 report. 19 When that report came in, it showed 20 that the office was being run in an irregular 21 and incompetent fashion, and I say that 22 charitably, and then a decision was made to  h)} 0*0*0* Ԍ   ~ 0*0*0* 64 1 dismiss the people in the Travel Office, and 2 that's why the Travel Office is also a 3 phantom scandal. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q It's your position that the 6 dismissal of the employees of the Travel 7 Office was fully justified by The White 8 House? 9 A Yes, it was fully justified. 10 Q And they deserved what they got? 11 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I think The White 14 House could have handled it better. I think 15 The White House could have handled it 16 gentler. I think The White House -- in 17 retrospect, it wasn't necessary that all of 18 them be dismissed at once at that point, but 19 I think fundamentally the action of The White 20 House in dismissing these people was 21 warranted and was justified and was proper. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 65 1 Q And it's your position that Billy 2 Dale deserved to be indicted? 3 A No, I don't know that. I don't 4 know that. I know he was indicted by the 5 Justice Department after they conducted their 6 own independent investigation. I don't know 7 if he deserved to be indicted or didn't 8 deserve to be indicted. I had heard or I had 9 read after the fact, after the indictment, 10 that he had put money in his personal -- 11 Travel Office money in his personal checking 12 account, perhaps claiming he was keeping it 13 there for safeguarding and that may have led 14 the Justice Department to indict him. But 15 this is just my reading, but I don't know if 16 the Justice Department was justified in 17 indicting him or not. 18 Q During the time you worked at The 19 White House Counsel's Office you were aware 20 that the Clintons hadn't reported income on 21 their personal income tax returns, correct? 22 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 66 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 2 of the question. 3 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of 4 that. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have you been aware of that since 7 then? 8 A No, I'm not aware of that. 9 Q If that's the case, should they 10 have been indicted? 11 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I know of nothing the 13 Clintons have done which would justify the 14 Clintons being indicted for anything. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Now, did you ever see a memorandum 17 written by Hillary Clinton that said we want 18 those people out, we want our people in, 19 anything to that effect? 20 A No, I never saw such a memo. 21 Q Are you aware of other people 22 having seen such a memorandum?  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 67 1 A Well, only by reading -- no, I'm 2 not aware of Hillary Clinton ever writing 3 such a memorandum or other people receiving 4 such a memorandum. Now, I'm aware because of 5 hearing of David Watkins, I think, writing a 6 memorandum to the file or memorandum to the 7 chief of staff which described conversations 8 he had with Hillary Clinton with respect to 9 this matter. I'm aware of that. I don't 10 know if that's accurate or not accurate 11 because I wasn't privy to those 12 conversations. 13 Q Have you ever been questioned about 14 Travelgate by Independent Counsel Starr? 15 A I've been questioned by the 16 independent counsel about a number of 17 subjects, and that's the reason I'm 18 hesitating. I believe I was. I'm almost 19 certain I was. 20 MR. MAZUR: He asked you by Starr 21 himself. 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, by --  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 68 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Well, let's start with Starr 3 himself. 4 A Oh, no, I never met with Starr with 5 respect to any of these matters. 6 Q Have you ever seen him in person? 7 A Yes. I know Starr. I've seen him 8 in person. 9 Q But you never talked to him about 10 any of the Clinton controversies in person? 11 A I've never seen him in connection 12 with his official functions as the 13 independent counsel. 14 Q Were you ever questioned by the 15 Independent Counsel concerning Filegate? 16 A By his office, not by Starr. Yes, 17 I was questioned by the Independent Counsel's 18 office concerning Filegate. 19 Q Did you appear in front of a grand 20 jury? 21 MR. MAZUR: With respect to 22 Filegate?  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 69 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yes. 3 A Not with respect to Filegate. 4 Q This was an informal interview? 5 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 6 the question. 7 THE WITNESS: This was a lengthy 8 interview, took a number of hours and a 9 number of senior people from Starr's staff 10 who interviewed me at length with respect to 11 the so-called Filegate matter. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Who participated in that? 14 A From the staff? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I think -- you would know. I think 17 Jackie Bennett was there. I remember him 18 sitting there. 19 Q Was that in Washington or New York? 20 A It was in Washington. I remember 21 Jackie Bennett being there and the other 22 staff members escape -- I knew at the time  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 70 1 but I don't know now. 2 Q It was an informal interview? 3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Informal only in the 6 sense that it wasn't transcribed like we're 7 transcribing this deposition. They took 8 extensive notes and the interview went on for 9 a long time and it was an in-depth interview. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q It wasn't under oath, I take it? 12 A It wasn't under oath, but it was a 13 statement to a government agency -- a 14 government agent, so I had no illusions that 15 if I didn't tell the truth there could be 16 consequences as a result of that. 17 Q So you're aware of other people 18 having appeared before the grand jury on 19 Filegate, aren't you? 20 A Perhaps I read -- I didn't appear 21 before the grand jury on Filegate. Other 22 people may have or may not have. I don't  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 71 1 know. I just don't know. 2 Q So you think you got special 3 treatment because you're a fellow lawyer? 4 A No, I don't think I got special 5 treatment from under Starr's office. I've 6 testified before the grand jury on three or 7 four occasions. 8 Q Given the fact that you were head 9 of the office of White House counsel and 10 you're ultimately responsible for what went 11 on there, correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Didn't you find it peculiar that 14 they never put you under oath? 15 A No, because it wasn't necessary, 16 because they interviewed me for hours, 17 because we discussed every aspect of it, and 18 because the whole thing is nonsense. 19 Q And they told you that? The 20 Independent Counsel said the whole thing is 21 nonsense? 22 A No, they didn't tell me that.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 72 1 That's my judgment. 2 Q Your judgment is they've come to 3 that conclusion? 4 A No, I don't know. I don't know 5 what conclusion they've come to. 6 Q Now, since you've left The White 7 House, have you ever discussed Filegate with 8 Harold Ickes? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you seen Harold Ickes since 11 you've left The White House? 12 A Not many times. Once in a while. 13 I ran into him in a restaurant, shake hands, 14 you know, and joke around. But I saw him 15 once when I was testifying actually before 16 the grand jury. He was coming in and I was 17 coming out, you know, and we joked about 18 that. But -- and we made a joke once at 19 another restaurant about, you know -- 20 Q You're aware when Harold Ickes left 21 The White House he made off with boxes of 22 documents, aren't you?  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 73 1 MS. GILES: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I've read that, yes. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you ever ask him? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever ask him if any 7 documents concerning me, Bernie Nussbuam, 8 were there, let me know? 9 A Never did. 10 Q Did you ever discuss Travelgate 11 with Harold Ickes since you've left The White 12 House? 13 A No. 14 Q I take it you've had discussions 15 with James Carville since you've left The 16 White House? 17 A I don't think I've seen James since 18 I've left The White House. 19 Q That was by design? 20 A No, I'd love to see him. He's a 21 funny guy. 22 Q Did you ever see anybody else that  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 74 1 you worked with at The White House or talked 2 to them since you've left? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who? 5 A I've seen the President. I've seen 6 the First Lady. I've seen Bruce Lindsey. 7 I've seen Cheryl Mills. I've seen -- 8 although he wasn't at The White House when I 9 was there, Chuck Ruff, Lloyd Cutler. I've 10 seen a number of people, you know. 11 Q Let's list them all. 12 A Those are the people I remember. 13 Q Who else? Have you seen Linda 14 Tripp? 15 A No, I've never seen Linda Tripp. 16 Q Talk to her? 17 A No, I haven't talked to Linda Tripp 18 since I left The White House. 19 Q Betsy Pond? 20 A I've seen Betsy Pond. Last year I 21 was trying a case down here before Judge 22 Sporkin -- in fact, you interrupted that  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 75 1 case. You came in and you were arguing and I 2 had to sit and wait for your argument. 3 Q That was the case where the judge 4 said that there was bribery in the Chinagate 5 scandal? 6 A I don't know if he said that. I 7 think that's what you said. 8 Q That was Judge Sporkin? 9 A By the FEC, right. 10 Q When the FEC said we didn't have 11 jurisdiction to look into sale of seats on 12 and Judge Sporkin said you don't have 13 jurisdiction to look into bribery? 14 A I do remember that. 15 Q You found that troubling? 16 A I thought you argued it well, 17 frankly. 18 Q Thank you, we were happy to have 19 you. 20 A You gave us a break-in the trial. 21 I was here for two months. While I was here 22 for two months I saw Betsy. I don't think  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 76 1 I've seen Deborah Gorham, although she once 2 contacted me with respect to asking me for a 3 recommendation or something. I said she 4 could use my name as a reference for a job. 5 Q Anybody else? 6 A Well, I've been back to The White 7 House, you know, once or twice, and when I 8 was there I would say hello to people. I 9 mean, the First Lady's chief -- 10 Q Melanie Verveer? 11 A Melanne. The First Lady's chief of 12 staff, I've seen her both inside The White 13 House and outside The White House. I know a 14 lot of people in The White House. I worked 15 there for other a year. 16 Q That's why I'm asking. 17 A And I've seen them in New York or 18 Washington or at The White House. 19 Q Maggie Williams? 20 A I've seen Maggie Williams not 21 often, actually. I think I ran into her when 22 we were testifying before one of the House or  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 77 1 Senate committees. 2 Q Marcia Scott? 3 A I've seen Marcia Scott. I ran into 4 her in The White House when I was there on a 5 visit. 6 Q Sidney Blumenthal? 7 A I only met Blumenthal once when I 8 was on that trial. He was testifying before 9 the grand jury and I was in the courthouse 10 for two months, so I also ran into a lot of 11 people coming for the grand jury testimony, 12 and I was coming to try my antitrust case and 13 I had to deal with the press every day to 14 assure them I was not testifying before the 15 grand jury. 16 Q Paul Begala? 17 A I haven't seen Paul since I've left 18 The White House. 19 Q Susan Thomasson? 20 A Yes, she was not in The White 21 House. 22 Q Rahm Emanuel?  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 78 1 A No, I don't think I've seen Rahm. 2 Well, I did, I think, once. Shortly after I 3 left The White House, I went to some function 4 in Washington. 5 Q Mike McCurry? 6 A I don't really know Mike very well. 7 I may have run into him when I was at The 8 White House and shook his hand or something. 9 Q Ann Lewis? 10 A No, I don't remember seeing Ann 11 Lewis. 12 Q Evelyn Lieberman? 13 A I don't think I've seen Evelyn 14 Lieberman since he was in The White House. 15 Q Have you had any communication with 16 Mrs. Clinton or representatives of 17 Mrs. Clinton concerning her candidacy for the 18 Senate in New York? 19 MS. GILES: Objection, relevancy. 20 THE WITNESS: I was with 21 Mrs. Clinton -- I saw her last week or the 22 week before at a political dinner in New  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 79 1 York, and we chatted briefly. We didn't chat 2 about her candidacy for the Senate. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You're aware that Mrs. Clinton's a 5 Defendant in this case? 6 A Yes, I'm aware of that. 7 Q And when you had these 8 conversations with Mrs. Clinton in the last 9 several years since you've left you've 10 discussed Filegate with her? 11 A No, we never discussed the Filegate 12 allegation. 13 Q Given the fact she's a Defendant in 14 this case have you ever heard any discussion 15 that this was going to be a problem for her 16 if she runs for the Senate? 17 A No, I never heard such a 18 discussion. 19 Q Is it your opinion it will be a 20 problem for her? 21 A No, I don't think it will be a 22 problem at all.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 80 1 Q Why not? 2 A Because there's nothing to it. 3 Q Did you ever discuss Filegate with 4 President Clinton? 5 A No. No. 6 Q Did you ever discuss Travelgate 7 with President Clinton? 8 MS. GILES: I'm going to object to 9 the witness discussing the substance of 10 conversations with the President other than I 11 will allow him to identify very general 12 subject matter of the conversations. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: On a core issue 14 you're going to object to that? 15 MS. GILES: Filegate is not a core 16 issue. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: You're just objecting 18 on Travelgate? 19 MS. GILES: No. I'm objecting on 20 conversations with the President. 21 THE WITNESS: I never discussed the 22 so-called Filegate issue with the President.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 81 1 I did discuss the Travel Office issue, 2 so-called Travelgate -- everything's a gate, 3 but okay I discussed the Travel Office issue 4 with the President when I was in The White 5 House. That happened when I was in The White 6 House, and I discussed it with him when I was 7 in The White House. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You discussed the acquisition of 10 FBI materials on Billy Dale and the other 11 Travel Office employees? 12 A No, I never discussed that with 13 him. 14 Q You discuss that with anyone when 15 you were at The White House? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you have any discussions with 18 Mrs. Clinton about the acquisition of FBI 19 materials concerning the Travel Office? 20 A No. 21 Q Have you discussed any of the 22 so-called Clinton controversy, including  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 82 1 Filegate and Travelgate, with Harold Ickes 2 since you've left The White House? 3 A No, I have not. 4 Q Have you had any discussions of 5 these subjects with Bruce Lindsey? 6 MR. MAZUR: Which subjects? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Travelgate and Filegate. 9 A Well, I had discussions with Bruce 10 Lindsey about the Travel Office issue when I 11 was in The White House. He was in The White 12 House, I was in The White House, and I've 13 discussed that with him. And -- 14 Q Did you discuss the issue of the 15 acquisition of Dale's file with Lindsey? 16 A I didn't know Dale's file was 17 acquired when I was in The White House, so I 18 didn't discuss that issue with him when I was 19 in The White House. 20 Q Have you discussed that issue with 21 him since? 22 A I've discussed the file  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 83 1 controversy, the FBI file controversy -- I 2 mean, that's how I'll characterize it, the 3 FBI controversy. I'll adopt your suggestion. 4 Q I'm trying to be agreeable. 5 A Actually, so am I. I've discussed 6 that with Lindsey since I left The White 7 House because it emerged after I left The 8 White House, and I've seen Lindsey from time 9 to time since I've left The White House, and 10 I have discussed that issue with him. 11 Q And what did you discuss with 12 Lindsey? 13 A Just what I told you today, that 14 this is a sad thing, a great tragedy that 15 nothing happened, nothing wrong was done. 16 There was a bureaucratic screw-up, an 17 erroneous list was given to somebody -- I'm 18 telling you what I discussed. You want to 19 hear it, don't you? 20 Q All right, let's hear it. 21 A An erroneous list was handed to a 22 detailee who requested files, you know,  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 84 1 foolishly, unwittingly, until a 25-year-old 2 intern came in and realized that this can't 3 be a current list and stopped the acquisition 4 of files, and this has turned into -- this 5 bureaucratic screw-up has turned into 6 Filegate, has turned into this FBI file 7 controversy, and it's -- you know, it's a 8 real tragedy that this happened and that the 9 press and that other people, litigants and 10 other people, just simply refuse to 11 understand that some lower level people made 12 a mistake, both in our office and in the 13 Secret Service, perhaps, and yet this has 14 generated enormous controversy, congressional 15 hearings, and litigation. 16 Q Are you recounting everything you 17 said to Lindsey or giving us a speech? 18 MR. MAZUR: You asked him about 19 what he discussed with Lindsey. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: That's why I'm 21 asking. 22 THE WITNESS: Believe me, what I  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 85 1 just said to you I said to Lindsey. In fact, 2 the way I'm saying it to you I'm limiting it 3 because I know you don't want to hear it at 4 length. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q And you said to Lindsey did you 7 ever find out more detail about what happened 8 in Filegate? 9 A The White House -- yes, and Lindsey 10 said -- the description I just gave you is 11 what happened. 12 Q And who did that investigation? 13 Lindsey told you? 14 A No, he didn't tell me. I presume 15 -- you know, when Filegate broke and we had 16 congressional hearings, then obviously The 17 White House Counsel's Office, particularly, I 18 presume, did look into the facts because we 19 had to prepare ourselves for these hearings 20 and this was what was ultimately determined. 21 Q Who in The White House counsel did 22 that?  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 86 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Did you ever say to anybody since 3 you've left The White House, how did we ever 4 hire that idiot Craig Livingstone, anything 5 to that effect? 6 A No. 7 Q You can take the word "idiot" out. 8 Why did we hire somebody who wasn't 9 qualified? 10 A No, I don't think it's fair to say 11 Craig Livingstone wasn't qualified. Craig 12 Livingstone is -- you know, he's not a 13 perfect human being, just like you're not and 14 I'm not, but I think Craig Livingstone 15 actually was qualified for that position. He 16 was an intelligent, hard-working, sincere 17 person. If he bragged to people from time to 18 time, which he may have done, because I've 19 read about it, I've never heard it. That's 20 unfortunate but everybody does silly things 21 from time to time, but I don't think Craig 22 Livingstone did anything seriously wrong with  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 87 1 respect to anything that I know of. 2 Q What made him qualified, in your 3 opinion? 4 A It was a -- you know, he was an 5 intelligent person. He had worked on the 6 inauguration. He had worked on the campaign. 7 He had gotten good reviews from people who 8 apparently work with him. That's what 9 Kennedy and Foster told me when they made the 10 decision that he should be hired, and I saw 11 nothing during my service as White House 12 counsel that contradicted that and I know of 13 nothing since that contradicts that. 14 Q What did you do to determine he was 15 intelligent before he was hired? 16 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: I personally did not 19 do anything. I left Foster and -- he was 20 working for Kennedy, and Kennedy and Foster 21 made the determination that he should remain 22 in his position as head of Office of  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 88 1 Personnel Security. They told me about it in 2 advance of finally making the decision, and I 3 approved their decision. But basically they 4 made that decision and told me about it. 5 Obviously, I could have overruled it if I 6 wanted to. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And you asked to see his employment 9 applications and recommendations and the 10 whole nine yards about his application to be 11 employed there? 12 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 13 the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I left that -- I did 15 not do that. I left that to Foster and 16 Kennedy. 17 MR. MAZUR: When you've got a new 18 subject we'd like a short break. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me? 20 MR. MAZUR: When you've got a new 21 subject, we'd like a short break. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 89 1 Q Did you ask Foster and Kennedy to 2 explain to you how they had determined he was 3 intelligent? 4 A Foster and Kennedy when they told 5 me that they were going to keep Livingstone 6 on in that position said that, you know, 7 they'd reviewed his work for the past few 8 weeks. I sort of vaguely remember this. 9 This is -- but I do remember a conversation 10 where they said, you know, we're going to 11 keep Craig Livingstone on. You know, he's a 12 bright guy. He's worked hard. He's gotten 13 good recommendations, and we think we should 14 -- you know, we're satisfied he can stay on 15 and report to Kennedy and I said fine. That 16 was the gist of the conversation. 17 Q But you never asked to see what was 18 behind those conclusions? 19 A No, I never asked to see what was 20 behind those conclusions. I had enormous 21 trust and confidence in Foster and Kennedy, 22 enormous trust and confidence which I have to  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 90 1 this day. 2 Q You were aware of the importance of 3 the position that Mr. Livingstone was being 4 hired for? 5 A Yes, I knew it was an important 6 position but it was basically an 7 administrative position. It was not a 8 policy-making decision. It didn't require, 9 you know, great policy-making skills. It 10 required administrative skills. It required, 11 you know, managing a paper flow, and Foster 12 and Kennedy were confident that Livingstone 13 had such skills to do that. 14 Q Did Foster and Kennedy ever advise 15 you as to whether Livingstone had had 16 problems in his past? 17 A I don't recall ever being advised 18 that he's had problems in his past. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe we should go on 20 the confidential record here. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: My gosh, 22 Mr. Klayman, we were just thinking alike.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 91 1 It's a scary thought. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: It is scary, more for 3 me than for you. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: No. No. I take 5 issue with that. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go on the 7 confidential record here. 8 MR. MAZUR: He doesn't know what a 9 confident record is for purposes of this 10 proceeding, so just give me a minute. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You're not giving him 12 information, are you, Mr. Mazur? 13 MR. MAZUR: I'm telling him what 14 the procedure is that you are following here. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's just flip a 16 tape here quickly, and if we go back on the 17 confidential record later, we can put it on 18 the same tape. 19 MR. MAZUR: I'm sorry. Is this on 20 a confidential record now or not? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: It will be as soon as 22 we switch the tape.  h) 0*0*0* Ԍ   0*0*0* 92 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 2 video record at 11:20. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 102 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 2 video record at 11:32. 3 (Discussion off the record) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 5 public record at 11:33. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Now, we're going to get a little 8 bit into your background later, Mr. Nussbaum, 9 but at the time you took the job as White 10 House counsel you were experienced in the 11 ways of Washington, D.C., to put it 12 generally? 13 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You had been a counsel on the 18 Watergate committee? 19 A Yes. I was just about to say that. 20 I had been a counsel on the Watergate 21 committee. I'd lived in Washington for 22 almost a year during that time, but I would 103 1 not consider myself experienced in the ways 2 of Washington in the early '90s. 3 Q And in the course of your having 4 been a lawyer, a litigator for many years, 5 you had had cases that involved matters that 6 took you to Washington, D.C.? 7 A Absolutely, yes. 8 Q What is your specialty in terms of 9 litigation? 10 A My specialty is, in the sense that 11 I have a specialty, it's complex corporate 12 litigation, occasionally, in the past, not 13 recently, white collar criminal type of 14 litigation. My specialty is tough cases. 15 Q And how many years had you been 16 practicing law at the time that you took the 17 job as White House counsel? 18 A I'd been practicing law for 30 19 years the time I took the job as White House 20 counsel. 21 Q And during that time you had had 22 matters where you had to deal with Congress? 104 1 A On rare occasions, actually. 2 Q And you had matters where you had 3 to deal with government regulatory agencies, 4 federal regulatory agencies? 5 A Yes. Not as rare but -- I'm not a 6 Washington lawyer. I mean, I don't deal with 7 regulatory agencies on a regular basis, 8 although I deal with the SEC. I guess it's 9 part of my securities litigation practice. I 10 have done a lot of securities litigation, so 11 I've dealt with that regulatory agency, yes. 12 Q And when you worked on the 13 Watergate committee you went through a 14 security clearance procedure where the FBI 15 checked you out? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you had a general understanding 18 as to why persons employed by the federal 19 government have security clearances done by 20 the FBI? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you knew the procedures? 105 1 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form. 2 THE WITNESS: Generally, yes, but 3 on a sort of macro level. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q And you've had matters during your 6 30 years where you had to deal with the FBI? 7 A Yes. Well, I was a prosecutor. 8 Dealt with FBI lots of times. 9 Q And it was your understanding that 10 these security checks were very important to 11 protect the government? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q Protect the American people? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And to protect the individuals that 16 worked for the government? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q So when you took the job as White 19 House, recognizing that The White House 20 Office of Personnel Security fell under your 21 command, you took very seriously who you were 22 going to hire to head up that office, 106 1 correct? 2 A Absolutely. 3 Q And you were aware that there were 4 many people available that actually had 5 experience in doing background security 6 checks and reviewing personnel files 7 concerning those background security checks, 8 correct? 9 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 10 the question. 11 THE WITNESS: The person in charge 12 of reviewing FBI files, background checks, 13 which were very important, just as in my mind 14 was not Craig Livingstone. Craig Livingstone 15 was an administrator, to make sure the paper 16 flowed. The person I appointed to that job, 17 who I carefully considered, is an appointment 18 I am very proud of at the time I made it and 19 just as proud of it today, and that person is 20 a superb lawyer, a man of great judgment and 21 honesty and integrity and wisdom, and that 22 person's name is Bill Kennedy. That's the 107 1 person I appointed to perform that very 2 sensitive job, which I agree with you is a 3 sensitive and an important job. 4 Craig Livingstone, whose 5 appointment I knew as the head of personnel 6 security, was merely the person whose office 7 obtained, facilitated the paper, obtained the 8 paper necessary for Kennedy then and some 9 people under Kennedy to make the sensitive 10 decisions as to how do we react to 11 information contained in FBI reports with 12 respect to potential appointees. 13 Q You knew Kennedy before you 14 appointed him? 15 A I did not know Kennedy before I 16 appointed him, but I knew Foster for a number 17 of months before I appointed Kennedy. I 18 discussed Kennedy at length with Foster, and 19 Foster gave me, you know, a detailed 20 description of Kennedy and Kennedy's 21 abilities, and I met with Kennedy and I was 22 immediately taken with Kennedy. And Kennedy 108 1 performed that job superbly. 2 Q You only knew Foster for a few 3 months, though? 4 A I knew Foster for a few months, 5 that's correct. 6 Q And you had faith in Foster because 7 Hillary Clinton had told you this is somebody 8 you could trust? 9 A Hillary Clinton certainly told me 10 this is somebody I could trust, as did 11 President Clinton told me he was somebody I 12 could trust. Foster and I started working 13 together on a daily basis shortly after the 14 election, late November, early December, 15 maybe a little later than that, maybe late 16 December. But we got to know each other 17 fairly well. We clicked. He was a superb 18 human being, superb lawyer, a soul of honesty 19 and integrity. I saw that quickly. 20 We worked together. His judgment 21 was excellent. And consequently when he 22 recommended Kennedy and described him at 109 1 length as to why we should put him in that 2 position and then I met with Kennedy, I made 3 a decision to put him in the position, and 4 I've never regretted that decision. 5 Q Did you ask for a background check 6 on Kennedy before you made that decision? 7 A No, I didn't ask for a background 8 check on Kennedy before I made the decision, 9 but Kennedy, like everybody else, including 10 myself, had to have a background check, you 11 know, ultimately by the FBI. 12 Q Did you ever ask to see that 13 background check before you put him in the 14 position? 15 A Not before I put him in the 16 position, no. I may have seen it ultimately. 17 I have a recollection of Foster asking me to 18 either review or to take a look at Kennedy's 19 background check. 20 Q At some point in time, you learned 21 that Kennedy had tax problems, correct? 22 A No, I didn't learn that Kennedy had 110 1 tax problems at the time, you know, we hired 2 him. If you're referring to this thing that 3 came out later that there was failure to pay 4 the so-called nanny tax of $700 or something 5 like that, I didn't learn about till later 6 on. 7 Q And when you learned about that you 8 dismissed Kennedy? 9 A No, I didn't dismiss Kennedy. 10 Q Was there any discussion about 11 Kennedy leaving while you were there? 12 A No. 13 Q Was there any discussion about what 14 to do about that nanny tax problem? 15 A That nanny tax problem I think came 16 up after I left. I mean, I know about it and 17 I read about it, but it came up after I left, 18 and I was not involved in any -- when I was 19 there, Kennedy was still -- 20 Q Were you aware that he tried to 21 hide that problem by using his wife's maiden 22 name? 111 1 A No, I'm not aware he tried to hide 2 that problem. 3 Q When you were aware of that? 4 A I've never been made aware of that. 5 Q If you had learned that that was 6 true before you made the decision to put him 7 in the job in terms of reviewing security 8 files, would you have done it? 9 A It's not true. I don't believe 10 it's true. 11 Q Well, suppose it was. 12 A If I learned that Kennedy had 13 murdered somebody before I appointed, I would 14 not have appointed him to the job. 15 Q I didn't ask you about murder. 16 We'll get to that later. 17 A If I learned he deliberately, you 18 know, tried to evade the payment of taxes 19 knowingly and deliberately, no, I would not 20 have appointed him to that position. I don't 21 believe Kennedy ever did such a thing. 22 Q But if he did and you picked that 112 1 up reviewing his security file, would you 2 have had hired him? 3 A I would not hire anybody, Kennedy 4 or anybody else, who knowingly and 5 deliberately sought to avoid the payment of 6 taxes. That's correct. I would not hire 7 anybody, Kennedy, Foster, or anybody else, 8 and if I tried to do that, nobody should hire 9 me. 10 Q You hired Foster, correct? 11 A No, actually, I didn't hire Foster. 12 Q Hillary hired Foster? 13 A The President hired Foster. Foster 14 was hired as deputy counsel prior to my being 15 hired as counsel. I was told when I 16 discussed the position of counsel with the 17 President that they wanted Foster to be 18 deputy counsel and then I met with Foster and 19 we had extensive conversations about how we 20 would work together and things like that. 21 Basically I did not hire Foster. Foster was 22 hired by the President. 113 1 Q The President and Mrs. Clinton 2 inserted Foster into that job? 3 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 4 that question. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: The President and to 8 some extent Mrs. Clinton determined that 9 Foster should be appointed as deputy counsel. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And that was suggested to you as a 12 fait accompli? 13 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of 14 the question. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, and after I met 16 with him and discussed with him at length I 17 was delighted. I thought I was a lucky 18 person. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q And they told you why they wanted 21 him in there, the Clintons? 22 A Yes. 114 1 Q And what did they tell you? 2 A They told me something that turned 3 out to be absolutely correct, that he was a 4 superb lawyer, that he was a great human 5 being, that he was a man of the highest 6 integrity and probity, and that he would be a 7 loyal and able deputy to me and would be 8 helpful to all of us to have him in The White 9 House. There could be no better deputy White 10 House counsel other than Foster or a person 11 like Foster. And I learned that was to be 12 absolutely accurate. 13 Q And they told you they wanted him 14 in there because he could be trusted? 15 A Oh, I assumed that he could be 16 trusted, just like I assume they thought I 17 could be trusted, trusted to do the right 18 thing. 19 Q And they told you they wanted him 20 in there because he'd be dealing with a lot 21 of confidential information and he would keep 22 that information confidential? 115 1 A He would act like a lawyer would 2 act. A lawyer has a duty to keep privileged 3 information confidential acting in accordance 4 with the canons of ethics. 5 Q You are aware in your 30 years of 6 experience that if a lawyer comes upon 7 evidence that his client is committing an 8 ongoing fraud that the lawyer in many 9 jurisdictions has to even turn the client in 10 if the client won't correct it? 11 A That may be true with some 12 jurisdictions, that's correct. That's true. 13 Q And Foster was the kind of person 14 who rather than turning his client in would 15 rather take his own life, correct? 16 MS. GILES: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: No, Foster was not 18 that kind of person -- Foster was the kind of 19 person who would turn his own client in if he 20 ran across a continuing fraud. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q He wouldn't? 116 1 A He would. Foster was the most -- 2 was one of the most honest lawyers I've ever 3 met and I met a lot of lawyers. 4 Q He's not the kind of guy that would 5 take lightly being asked to do something 6 illegal? 7 A No, he would not take lightly being 8 asked to do something illegal. 9 Q That's something that would deeply 10 trouble him? 11 A If he was asked to do something 12 illegal? 13 Q Yes. 14 A I'm not sure it would deeply 15 trouble him. He would reject it out of hand. 16 Q For instance, knowing Vince Foster, 17 how many years did you work with him? Over a 18 year, right? 19 A No, seven months. 20 Q Seven years? 21 A Seven months. 22 Q Seven months, in that seven months 117 1 you developed a deep respect for him? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And you've never met a lawyer who 4 was more ethical? 5 A Yes, I think that's fair. I have 6 met other very ethical lawyers. I'm not 7 saying Foster was the most ethical lawyer in 8 the whole world. He was a leader of the bar. 9 He was right on top of -- in terms of ethics 10 and his various other skills he had. 11 Q Based on your experience in working 12 with him and your appreciation for his 13 ethics, if Foster had come upon facts which 14 actually evidenced that Filegate occurred he 15 was not the kind of lawyer that would have 16 taken that lightly, correct? 17 A No, he would have stopped it 18 immediately. 19 Q And if he had found out -- 20 A If there was truly a Filegate, in 21 other words, if there was really an effort to 22 improperly secure FBI files, if Foster 118 1 discovered something like that was going on, 2 he would stop it immediately. 3 Q And if he had found out that his 4 good friends, the Clintons, were involved, he 5 wouldn't have taken that lightly either, 6 correct? 7 A He would not have taken that 8 lightly. 9 Q And let's say if Hillary Clinton 10 was involved, Foster would have gone to her 11 and said this has to be stopped? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 13 of the question. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Correct? 16 A If he found that something like 17 that was going on, which obviously I believe 18 he didn't, he would have gone to Hillary 19 Clinton, perhaps, and said this has to be 20 stopped, yes, he might have done that. And 21 then, since I know Hillary Clinton fairly 22 well, I know what she would have done. She 119 1 would have stopped it, if all these 2 hypothetical things were going on. 3 Q Based on your experience in working 4 with Vince Foster, if he went to see Hillary 5 Clinton and said it has to be stopped and 6 Mrs. Clinton said no, Foster would have 7 turned her in? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 9 of the question. 10 MS. GILES: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: Foster would have 12 acted in accordance with the canons of 13 ethics. If there was a continuing fraud and 14 the canons in his jurisdiction or the rules 15 of professional responsibility required a 16 lawyer to turn in his client, which I don't 17 think it does in most jurisdictions, 18 basically, Foster would have acted in 19 accordance with the canons of ethics. 20 Q Which would have been under the 21 D.C. canons of ethics, he would have had to 22 quit, correct? 120 1 A I believe that's correct, yes. I 2 haven't reviewed the D.C. canons recently. 3 I'm not a member of the D.C. Bar, although I 4 became familiar with the D.C. -- 5 Q So Foster would have exited stage 6 left of The White House? 7 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: If Foster found there 10 was improper conduct in The White House that 11 he couldn't stop, there's no question that 12 Foster would have left The White House. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Has it ever dawned on you that 15 maybe the reason Foster killed himself was 16 because of what he had seen at The White 17 House and confronted somebody at The White 18 House and they refused to correct it? 19 A No, that's not correct. 20