1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Thursday, May 27, 1999 12 Deposition of 13 BETSY POND 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, beginning at 17 approximately 10:15 a.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary 20 public in and for the District of Columbia, 21 when were present on behalf on the respective 22 parties: 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE DEBORAH BERLINER, ESQUIRE 4 ROBERT CORRY, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 6 (202) 646-5172 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 8 Office of the President: 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 Federal Programs Branch Civil Division 11 United States Department of Justice 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor 12 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 14 Investigation: 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE NATALIA LEONS, ESQUIRE 16 Office of General Counsel Federal Bureau of Investigation 17 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. Washington, D.C. 20535 18 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5175 6 On behalf of The White House: 7 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 9 (202) 456-5079 10 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 11 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 12 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 13 (212) 403-1000 14 On behalf of Deponent: 15 MYLES E. FLINT, ESQUIRE JEFFREY T. GREEN, ESQUIRE 16 KRISTIN GRAHAM KOEHLER, ESQUIRE Sidley & Austin 17 1722 I Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20006 18 (202) 736-8228 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 Niki Kopsidas Alana Rutherford 21 22 * * * * * 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7 4 Counsel for Defendants Federal 386 Bureau of Investigation 5 and Executive Office of the President 6 Counsel for Deponent 398 7 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: 8 Counsel for Plaintiffs 401 9 POND DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 10 No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments 10 11 No. 2 - Letter, Green to Klayman 13 12 No. 3 - Diagram 237 13 14 15 * * * * * 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of Betsy Pond, 4 taken by the counsel for Plaintiff in the 5 matter of Cara Leslie Alexander, et al. v. 6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al., in 7 the U.S. District Court for the District of 8 Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held in the 9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, 10 Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this date, 11 May 27, 1999, and at the time indicated on 12 the video screen, which is 10:02 a.m. 13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm 14 the videographer. The court reporter today 15 is Joan Cain, from the firm of Beta 16 Reporting. 17 Will counsel now introduce 18 themselves? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm Larry Klayman, 20 chairman and general counsel of Judicial 21 Watch. 22 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President 1 Judicial Watch. 2 MS. BERLINER: Deborah Berliner, 3 Judicial Watch. 4 MR. CORRY: Rob Corry, attorney 5 with Judicial Watch. 6 MR. FLINT: Myles Flint, counsel 7 for Betsy Pond. 8 MR. GREEN: Jeffrey Green, Sidley & 9 Austin, counsel for Ms. Pond. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro, 11 representing the Executive Office of the 12 President and FBI. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, also 14 from the Department of Justice also 15 representing the same Defendants. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney on 17 behalf of the First Lady. With me today 18 sitting in the back of the room is Alana 19 Rutherford, a summer associate with my firm. 20 MR. MAZUR: Bernard Mazur, Wachtell 21 Lipton Rosen & Katz; I represent Bernard 22 Nussbuam. 1 MS. KOPSIDAS: Niki Kopsidas, 2 Sidley & Austin legal assistant. 3 MS. RUTHERFORD: Alana Rutherford, 4 Williams & Connolly summer associate. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: You are a legal 6 associate with whom? 7 MS. KOPSIDAS: Sidley & Austin. 8 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson, 9 White House Counsel's Office. 10 MR. PIFER: John Pifer, FBI 11 Counsel's Office. 12 MS. LEONS: FBI counsel's office. 13 MS. KOEHLER: Kristin Koehler, 14 attorney with Sidley & Austin. 15 Whereupon, 16 BETSY POND 17 was called as a witness and, having been 18 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 19 as follows: 20 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Please state your name. 1 A My name is Betsy Pond. 2 Q Do you prefer Mrs. Pond or 3 Ms. Pond? 4 MR. FLINT: Before we start, I have 5 one thing I'd like to put on the record, 6 Mr. Klayman. Excuse me for interrupting you. 7 On May 21 we received a subpoena from the 8 Plaintiffs in this matter and a subpoena 9 duces tecum, and we have earlier today given 10 you a letter response to that petition, and I 11 would like to just read that letter into the 12 record here so that it would be the nature of 13 our response to that subpoena will be on the 14 record -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't we just 16 attach it to the record? I was actually 17 going to mark it a part of the record as an 18 exhibit. 19 MR. GREEN: I think we'd be better 20 off reading it. 21 MR. FLINT: I'd like to read it 22 into the record. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll get to do that 2 when you cross-examine. Right now this is my 3 examination so I take issue with that. 4 MR. FLINT: This is a preliminary 5 matter and it is significant in terms of the 6 procedure that we're following here, and it 7 only takes a couple minutes. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You can wait your 9 turn and do that. Now it's my turn and I 10 will conduct the examination. I will put the 11 letter on the record. I have no problem with 12 that, but please don't interrupt my 13 examination. 14 MR. FLINT: I'm not interrupting 15 your examination, Mr. Klayman, and you know 16 that very well. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: You are interrupting 18 my examination, and I will allow you to 19 cross-examine at the appropriate time. 20 MR. FLINT: This will not count 21 against your time, but it needs to be in the 22 record, and we believe it should be here at 1 the beginning of this proceeding. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm going to put 3 it on the record. I take issue with that and 4 this is my examination and I will proceed. 5 Ms. Pond, I'm going to ask you 6 whether you received a copy of this subpoena 7 duces tecum and mark it Exhibit No. 1. 8 (Pond Deposition Exhibit No. 1 9 was marked for identification.) 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you seen this subpoena before? 12 A Yes. 13 Q When did you receive it -- 14 MR. FLINT: Excuse me, Mr. Klayman. 15 The very first thing that you're asking 16 Ms. Pond about is the subpoena, which our 17 response is a direct response -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't 19 interrupt. 20 MR. FLINT: Please. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Is your name 22 Mr. Flynn? 1 MR. FLINT: Flint. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: You are being 3 unnecessarily -- 4 MR. FLINT: For the record now I 5 want it to be clear that we served a letter 6 on you this morning in which we stated that 7 this subpoena that you're about to question 8 her about was untimely and also defective in 9 several other respects. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: That's why I'm 11 putting your letter on the record. Please 12 don't interrupt. 13 MR. FLINT: We have nevertheless 14 provided you with some documents which we 15 have identified in accordance with that 16 letter, but I think that -- 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm putting your 18 letter on the record, and I'll let you do 19 cross-examination. 20 MR. FLINT: I will do cross- 21 examination if I believe that's necessary 22 without your permission. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine after I 2 finish my direct. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you receive this subpoena? 5 A My attorneys did. 6 Q And did you have an opportunity to 7 review the subpoena? 8 A Yes. 9 Q With your attorney? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did he read to you the requested 12 documents? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Have you produced documents today? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And I take it your attorney has a 17 letter with the documents that were produced? 18 A Yes. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 20 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 21 Exhibit 2. 22 MR. FITTON: Do you have an extra 1 copy of the letter? 2 (Pond Deposition Exhibit No. 2 3 was marked for identification.) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 5 video record at 10:08. 6 (Discussion off the record) 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 8 video record at 10:08 and 55 seconds. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Is this a copy of the cover letter 11 consisting of three pages plus the documents 12 that you're producing today that are being 13 provided by your counsel on your behalf? 14 A I really haven't read through this. 15 MR. FLINT: I will state on behalf 16 of Ms. Pond that that is the material that is 17 being submitted by her counsel on her behalf. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q I'll ask that that be made an 20 exhibit, too. Now, your counsel has raised 21 some objections to the document requests, but 22 notwithstanding those objections did you have 1 an opportunity to review the documents you 2 are providing today before they were produced 3 by your counsel? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q When did you review them? 6 A When I looked for the documents, to 7 see if I had any documents. I reviewed the 8 ones that I had and brought them to my 9 attorney's office. 10 Q Where were those documents located 11 when you reviewed them? 12 A At my house in a file folder. 13 Q And how is that file folder 14 labeled? 15 A It's not labeled. 16 Q So you had a copy of the subpoena 17 requesting documents -- 18 A Oh, no, not the subpoena. No. I'm 19 sorry. I thought you said the documents that 20 I produced today. 21 Q Well, how did you know what 22 documents to produce today? 1 A Because my counsel had read the 2 subpoena to me and asked me to look through 3 everything I had to see if any documents may 4 be responsive but at any rate to bring them 5 all in and I had very little. 6 Q So, not having the subpoena, what 7 did you understand the subpoena was 8 requesting in terms of documents? 9 A Well, actually, my counsel asked me 10 to bring in everything that I had with 11 respect to anything. 12 Q Every piece of paper in your house? 13 A No. No, no, everything that may be 14 related to my time at The White House. 15 Q And you brought that to your 16 counsel's office? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And what happened then? How did 19 you decide what documents to produce today? 20 A He decided what documents were 21 relevant. 22 Q What was the basis upon which you, 1 Betsy Pond, decided what documents were 2 relevant? 3 A I brought everything that I had in. 4 MR. FLINT: Objection. This is 5 getting into attorney-client discussions and 6 it's inappropriate. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm very careful not 8 to ask for these conversations with you. I 9 want her understanding as to what was the 10 method upon which you decided what was 11 relevant, you, Betsy Pond, not discussions 12 with your counsel. 13 THE WITNESS: My counsel asked me 14 to bring in anything in my possession 15 relating to my employment at The White House 16 or anything I may have pertaining to this 17 lawsuit, and I went through my documents and 18 pulled everything I had out and brought them 19 into my attorneys. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What ultimately did you decide not 22 to produce? 1 A I don't know. 2 MR. GREEN: Wait. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Now, when you left The White House, 5 I take it you took documents with you? 6 A No, I did not. 7 Q Well, you said that you brought in 8 all the documents pertaining to your work at 9 The White House? 10 A Newspaper articles that I 11 personally kept. 12 Q Did you take any documents with you 13 when you left The White House? 14 A I did not. 15 Q During the time you worked at The 16 White House, did you sometimes take documents 17 home? 18 A No, I did not. 19 Q Did you take computer disks home? 20 A No, I did not. 21 Q About how much in the way of 22 documentation to size did you bring into your 1 Counsel's Office if you can tell me? 2 A Maybe that big. 3 Q About an inch? 4 A About an inch. 5 Q Look at Exhibit 2. The first page, 6 not your counsel's letter, consists of a 7 letter to Lloyd Cutler from you, copy to 8 Cheryl Mills. It's undated. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Excuse me. It has June 28, 1994, 12 at the top. It consists of two pages. It's 13 marked BP 1 and BP 2. Is this one of the 14 letters that you're producing today? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Was this a copy of the original or 17 was this run off of a computer disk to create 18 this document, for production today? 19 A It was run off of a computer, not a 20 disk. 21 Q So you have documents on a computer 22 at home? 1 A No, I do not, and actually this may 2 have been prepared by my attorney. No, it 3 probably was prepared by me on a computer at 4 The White House. I did not have a computer 5 at home. 6 Q Did you have a hard copy at home? 7 A No. 8 Q Well, how did you get a copy of it? 9 A I had a copy of it all along. I 10 saved a copy myself. 11 Q Well, you prepared it on a computer 12 at The White House, correct? 13 A That's my recollection. 14 Q Now, you just testified that you 15 didn't take documents from The White House 16 when you were working there after you left. 17 How did you get a copies of this if you 18 didn't take documents? 19 A I consider this to be my personal 20 document. It's pertaining to me. 21 Q But my question was generally 22 whether you took documents home, not whether 1 they were personal or White House documents. 2 Do you want to change your answer? 3 A If you consider this to be a 4 document, yes, I did take it. 5 Q Were there other documents that you 6 wrote at The White House which you considered 7 to be personal which you took home or to any 8 other location when you were working there or 9 as you were leaving? 10 A No. 11 Q The second letter is dated June 22, 12 1994, to Betsy Pond from Alphonse D'Amato and 13 Donald Riegel on the Committee on Banking, 14 Housing, and Urban Affairs. This is the 15 document which you're producing today, 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And this document was sent to you 19 at The White House, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So, therefore, you also took this 22 document from The White House home, correct? 1 A Yes. 2 Q So your last response wasn't 3 accurate, either. That's not the only 4 document you took? 5 A Mr. Klayman, I considered this to 6 be part of a package. This is my response 7 and this is the incoming that is addressed to 8 me. 9 MR. FLINT: Mr. Klayman, if I can 10 interrupt. It is an enclosure to the 11 previous letter. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q It is a separate document, is it 14 not? Is this a separate document, Ms. Pond? 15 A My cover letter says, "I enclose a 16 copy of the letter that I received from the 17 chairman of the Senate Banking Committee," so 18 it's a copy of the letter that I received. 19 Q Turning to the next letter, June 20 27, 1994, letter from Henry B. Gonzales of 21 the U.S. House of Representatives to Betsy 22 Pond. This was also sent to you at The White 1 House, correct? 2 A Actually, I believe that these were 3 sent to my attorney, addressed to me at The 4 White House, but I don't remember that. 5 Q Look at the top of the page. 6 A I see that. 7 Q Where it says deputy chief of 8 staff, 8/27/94, this reflects that it was 9 faxed to The White House, correct? 10 A That could -- yes. 11 Q So it wasn't sent to your attorney, 12 correct? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q So this was another document that 15 you removed from The White House, correct? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection. 19 MR. MAZUR: This says enclosure, 20 also. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't give her 22 testimony. That's not appropriate. 1 Mr. Mazur made a statement, "It's an 2 enclosure, also." I plainly heard that. Let 3 me conduct my examination. 4 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 5 relevance. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So you removed this document from 8 The White House, too, correct? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I have it, yes. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The next document is a Washington 13 Times article, "Linda Tripp on Filegate"? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And the date is cut off on my copy. 16 Do you know what date this is? 17 A It says 12/23/98. 18 Q And the next document is another 19 newspaper material that says, "Depositions, 20 interviews hint at Foster's worries. Ethics 21 may have troubled White House lawyer, two 22 pages from the January 30, 1995, Washington 1 Post. 2 Was this document also a document 3 that you kept at The White House and took 4 with you? 5 A No, it was a document that I had at 6 home. I cut out of the newspaper or I had -- 7 I kept the -- I kept the article. 8 Q The next document that you're 9 producing spans a BP number -- I take it that 10 means Betsy Pond, correct? Those little BP 11 numbers at the bottom. Do you know how they 12 got there? Did your lawyer put that there? 13 MR. FLINT: Yes. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q 9 through 16, it appears to be a 16 polygraph report. That's what it says on the 17 top. "Date of examination May 31, 1995. 18 Office of Independent Counsel." Is this a 19 complete copy of the polygraph report? 20 A As far as I know, it is. 21 Q And this report was prepared when 22 you were working at The White House? 1 A Yes. 2 Q And it was provided to The White 3 House? 4 A No. 5 Q How did you get a copy of it? 6 A My attorney. 7 Q Is this something you took to your 8 attorney? 9 A No, my attorney obtained the copy. 10 Q This wasn't something you took from 11 your house to your attorney in responding to 12 our subpoena? 13 A No. 14 Q Is this the only time you had a 15 polygraph exam administered to you? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Ms. Pond, when were you born? 18 A August 15, 1944. 19 Q And where were you born? 20 A Alexandria, Virginia. 21 Q And where did you attend high 22 school? 1 A James Madison High School in 2 Vienna, Virginia. 3 Q And when did you graduate? 4 A 1962. 5 Q And what, if anything, did you do 6 at that time? 7 A I attended a year at the Washington 8 School for Secretaries. 9 Q And when did you graduate? 10 A 1963, September 1963. 11 Q And what, if anything, happened at 12 that time professionally? Did you get a job? 13 A Yes, I did. 14 Q Where did you get a job? 15 A I got a job for a law firm then 16 named Williams & Stein. 17 Q And where were they located? 18 A 839 17th Street N.W. 19 Q What kind of a job did you get, a 20 legal secretary job? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And is that the firm which later 1 became Williams & Connolly? 2 A It is. 3 Q And who did you work for at that 4 firm? 5 A Peter Taft, Judy Hope, and David 6 Povich. 7 Q Povich? 8 A Povich. 9 Q Did you work with any other 10 lawyers, even part-time? 11 A Yes, on cases I worked with other 12 lawyers. 13 Q Who are the other lawyers that you 14 can remember that you worked with? 15 A Tom Wadden. 16 Q Tom? 17 A Wadden, Tom Dyson, Vince Fuller. 18 That's all that comes to mind right now. 19 Q Do you know where these lawyers are 20 today? 21 A Most of them -- yes, I do. 22 Q Where is Mr. Taft? 1 A Mr. Taft is with a firm in Los 2 Angeles. The name is something like Munger, 3 Tolles & RÄÄÄÄr. I'm not sure of the correct 4 name. 5 Q You've kept in contact with him, I 6 take it? 7 A Yes, I have. 8 Q And the second person, Judy Hope? 9 A She's with the law firm of Paul 10 Hastings. 11 Q In Washington, D.C.? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q David Povich? 14 A He's with Williams & Connolly. 15 Q Tom Wadden? 16 A He's deceased. 17 Q Tom Dyson? 18 A He's retired. 19 Q Does he live in the Washington 20 area? 21 A I'm not sure. I'm not sure where. 22 Q Where was the last place he lived? 1 A In Virginia. 2 Q And Vince Fuller? 3 A Williams & Connolly, as far as I 4 know. 5 Q When did you work for Williams & 6 Connolly, what years? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Well, when I say Williams & 10 Connolly I'm talking about Williams & Stein 11 as well, but I'll just call it Williams & 12 Connolly. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can answer. 16 A From September 1963 through May 17 1968, approximately. 18 Q Why did you leave Williams & 19 Connolly? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 21 of the question. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q These aren't trick questions. He's 2 just being dramatic. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to your 4 characterization of that and for your posing 5 a question without any foundation to it. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's hardly one of my 7 better questions in terms of originality, 8 Mr. Gaffney. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Why did you leave Williams & 11 Connolly? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I moved to San 14 Francisco. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you get married? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you ever been married? 19 A No. 20 Q And when you worked for Williams & 21 Connolly what kind of job evaluations did you 22 get? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm going to object 2 to the form of the question and, Mr. Klayman, 3 I think I'm entitled to do that. Williams & 4 Connolly was not formed until the 1970s so on 5 that basis I continue to object to any 6 reference to Williams & Connolly. If you 7 want to ask your questions, go ahead. I'm 8 entitled to make that objection. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to your 10 putting evidence on the record. I was just 11 using it for purposes of identification. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't you ask her 13 what law firm she worked for? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I did and I asked her 15 if it became Williams & Connolly, so I laid 16 the foundation. 17 MR. FLINT: I also object to the 18 relevancy of this. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just getting 20 background. To background there's a high 21 degree of touchiness here which I don't 22 understand. 1 MR. GAFFNEY: If you want to refer 2 to it as the predecessor firm to Williams & 3 Connolly, that's fine. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you know when Williams & Stein 6 became Williams & Connolly? 7 A No, I don't. I don't have a 8 recollection. 9 Q But it occurred during the period 10 that you worked there? 11 A I really don't remember. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Can you turn to Exhibit 2, which I 15 just identified, at Bates number 13? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you see question number 21? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Who is JKM? Do you remember? 20 A Just one second. Oh, JKM? He must 21 have been the FBI person who administered the 22 polygraph test. 1 Q And the question says, "In between 2 the time you arrived and when NÄÄÄÄ arrived, 3 did you have a telephone conversation with 4 anyone," and you responded, "Yes, I called 5 Bernie. I called two of my girlfriends, 6 Kathy Duvall and Gale Massot, to console me. 7 I can't remember which I called first. Kathy 8 Duvall is retired. She used to work at 9 Steptoe & Johnson. We worked together at 10 Williams & Connolly 30 years ago. She lives 11 in Annapolis. Her telephone number is 12 410-721-4936." 13 That refreshes your recollection, 14 does it not, that the firm was named Williams 15 & Connolly for at least part of the time that 16 you were there? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: It really doesn't. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q But you understand to have worked 22 for Williams & Connolly, correct? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I really don't know. 3 I don't recall when it became Williams & 4 Connolly, but I refer to it as Williams & 5 Connolly because that's what it is called 6 now. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You wouldn't say anything to this 9 FBI polygraph operator that was false, would 10 you? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MR. FLINT: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll refer to it as 15 Williams & Connolly because that's how she 16 refers to it. If you want to produce your 17 corporate records, that's fine, Mr. Gaffney. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Now, over the years have you kept 20 in contact with people from Williams & 21 Connolly? 22 A Yes. 1 Q When was the last time you talked 2 with anybody from Williams & Connolly? 3 A You mean that worked there at the 4 time and has subsequently left, or do you 5 mean -- 6 Q At all. 7 A Well, I keep in touch regularly 8 with several people who work at Williams & 9 Connolly or Williams & Stein. 10 Q And who are they? 11 A Peter Taft, Judy Hope, my friend 12 Kathy Duvall. 13 Q Was she a secretary, too? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And she still is at Williams & 16 Connolly? 17 A No, she's not, she's retired. 18 Q Who else? 19 A I've talked to David Povich. 20 Q Anybody else? 21 A No, I don't think so. 22 Q When was the last time you talked 1 with anybody from Williams & Connolly? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I talk to them quite 4 often, all of them except Mr. Povich; I don't 5 talk to him very often. But I talk to Judy, 6 Peter, and Kathy quite frequently. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q About how frequently? 9 A Kathy I probably talk to every 10 other day. Judy, I talk to maybe once a week 11 or once every other week, and Peter I talk to 12 maybe every three months or so. 13 Q And I take it you've talked to 14 these people about Linda Tripp in the last 15 few years? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I haven't. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Not at all? 20 A Oh, I have talked to my friend 21 Kathy about it. 22 Q If we subpoena these people to 1 testify in this case, they'll tell me under 2 oath that you have not talked to them about 3 Linda Tripp in the last two years? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that if 6 you subpoenaed Judy Hope you would find that 7 we were not able to talk about Linda because 8 I referred Linda to Ms. Hope for 9 representation, and my friend Kathy, I talked 10 to her about it, and my friend Peter, I may 11 have talked to him about it. But I just 12 don't recall what -- with what specificity 13 that I would have talked to them about it. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q What did you specifically talk to 16 them about Linda Tripp? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I guess what was 20 going on, the current events. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Such as? What current events are 1 we talking about? 2 A I believe it would have probably 3 been when the story broke on Monica Lewinsky 4 and Linda surfaced. 5 Q And what did you tell them about 6 Linda? 7 A I told them about the incidents 8 that I had with Linda. 9 Q And what did you tell them 10 specifically about those incidents? 11 A I just recalled some incidents that 12 had happened. I don't recall what specific 13 stories I relayed. 14 Q Well, tell us those incidents. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. FLINT: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that I said 18 that Linda was a very untrustworthy person, 19 that she wrecked havoc among the staff at The 20 White House. I also recalled a couple -- I'm 21 sure I recalled a couple of incidents, 22 personal incidents, that happened between 1 Linda and I. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And what personal incidents 4 happened between Linda and you that you told 5 them about? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 MR. GREEN: Can you tell us what 8 you mean by that? 9 MR. FLINT: Which conversation and 10 them? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: The people at 12 Williams & Connolly? 13 MR. GREEN: Can you specify which 14 of those people? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I will. First I want 16 to get the incidents. 17 THE WITNESS: Oh, I didn't tell 18 anybody at Williams & Connolly the incidents, 19 no one. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You just said you did. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 1 MR. FLINT: That's not a question. 2 THE WITNESS: My friend Kathy I 3 said that I told, and I'm sure that I told 4 other things generally but I wouldn't have 5 gone into the specific incidents. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Well, you told them generally the 8 incidents, correct? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MR. FLINT: Is it a question, 11 Mr. Klayman? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, it's a question 13 if you listen to it, Mr. Flint. 14 MR. FLINT: Repeat your question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You told them generally the 17 incidents? 18 MR. FLINT: Objection again as to 19 whom you're talking about. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll get a chance 21 to cross-examine. Let me ask my questions. 22 I'm going to get to that. Please don't 1 interrupt. 2 MR. FLINT: I apologize for 3 interrupting but it seems to me clarity may 4 be somewhat necessary. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Just don't interrupt. 6 You don't have to apologize. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Was there 8 a question? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Generally what incidents did you 11 talk about? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: With whom? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q With any of the people you've just 17 mentioned. I just want to identify generally 18 what incidents you mentioned, and then I'm 19 going to ask you who you specifically 20 mentioned the general incidents to. 21 A I think that I would have probably 22 told my friend Kathy a lot of the incidents 1 that happened. I do not recall telling 2 anybody else any specific incidents, just 3 that it was a nightmare. 4 Q What general incidents did you 5 recount to at least Kathy? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I recalled many 8 incidents that I can recall specifically, but 9 one that really hurt me a great deal was one 10 Saturday Linda was working, and our volunteer 11 was working, and my volunteer called me at 12 home and said, "I want to prepare you. You 13 know, Mrs. Nussbuam was coming into the 14 office today"? And I said, yeah. And she 15 said, "Linda took all your personal 16 belongings and threw them all over the floor 17 and told Mrs. Nussbuam that that was the kind 18 of conditions they had to work under." 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What volunteer said that Linda 21 threw all of your personal belongings on the 22 floor? 1 A Her name is Marlene McDonald. 2 Q And where is she today? 3 A She works for the Department of 4 Commerce. 5 Q Do you know what part of the 6 Department of Commerce? 7 A Public affairs. I believe she's 8 only been there a short while. 9 Q Did she say why Linda Tripp had 10 thrown your personal belongings on the floor? 11 A No, I don't believe Linda -- she 12 didn't say that Linda gave her any reason, 13 but I think the implication was clear. 14 Q And what was that? 15 A Well, she was trying to make me 16 look bad to Mrs. Nussbuam. 17 Q Why do you think Linda Tripp would 18 try to make you look bad? 19 A She tried to systematically make 20 everybody in the office look bad to enhance 21 her own role and to gain control. 22 Q When did this incident take place, 1 generally? 2 A January of 1994, I believe. 3 Q Did anyone else observe this 4 incident other than Ms. McDonald? 5 A Observe what part of it? The mess 6 that was left? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Well, it was still there when I 9 came in on Monday morning, and I don't recall 10 who saw it before I cleaned it up, but I 11 cleaned it up in a hurry because our office 12 was visible as soon as you walked off of the 13 elevator. Your sight was right into our 14 office, and there were piles of things all 15 over the floor. 16 Q So maybe I didn't understand, but 17 you're saying more than one person saw the 18 mess? 19 A I said I didn't know who had seen 20 the mess before I cleaned it up. Mrs. 21 Nussbuam saw it, Mr. Nussbaum saw it, Marlene 22 saw it, and I can't remember which staff may 1 have come in Monday morning before I cleaned 2 it up. 3 Q But you weren't there when 4 Ms. Tripp allegedly took all your personal 5 belongings and threw them on the floor? 6 A No, I wasn't. 7 Q And you don't know yourself whether 8 it was Ms. Tripp that did that? 9 A Yes, I do because she told me on 10 Monday. 11 Q And what did she tell you on 12 Monday? 13 A That she had taken my belongings 14 out because she needed the file to -- she 15 needed the file space. 16 Q She told you she threw all your 17 personal belongings on the floor? 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q Was she happy about that? Did that 20 appear to you to be something that pleased 21 her? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What was her reaction? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What was her demeanor? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Her demeanor was such 10 that she had pulled off something 11 spectacular. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What do you mean by "something 14 spectacular"? 15 A I really don't know how to 16 characterize it beyond that. I think that 17 she was very proud of herself because she had 18 made me look bad. 19 Q You believe that Linda Tripp 20 doesn't like you, correct? 21 A I do. 22 Q In fact, you believe that Linda 1 Tripp hates you, correct? 2 A Hate's a pretty strong word, but 3 she doesn't regard me as a friend. 4 Q Well, what is your belief? You 5 believe that she hates you? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 7 answered. 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'd say that. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And you don't like Ms. Tripp very 11 much, do you? 12 A No, I don't. 13 Q In fact, you hate her too, right? 14 A No, I wouldn't say that I hate her. 15 Q It's close to hate? 16 A I don't like her. I don't like 17 things that she's done, but I really feel sad 18 rather than hatred. I feel sad. 19 Q Why do you feel sad? 20 A I feel sad that so much anger is 21 put into hurting other people. 22 Q What did you find on the floor when 1 you came in Monday morning? 2 A My -- I had shoes in the back 3 drawer, I had personal toiletries, panty 4 hose, personal papers, things of that nature. 5 Q And all these things were being 6 kept in a file cabinet? 7 A A file drawer, the bottom file 8 drawer. 9 Q Whose file drawer was it? 10 A What do you mean, whose was it? It 11 belonged to the government. 12 Q Well, who was it assigned to? 13 A People in the Counsel's Office. It 14 was assigned to Mr. Nussbaum. 15 Q And what kinds of files were kept 16 in it? 17 A Chronological files of 18 correspondence and alphabetical files of 19 correspondence and maybe a few issues, 20 recurrent issues. I can't recall with any 21 degree of certainty what those issues would 22 have been. 1 Q Why did you put your panty hose in 2 those files? 3 A They weren't in the files. I was 4 using the bottom drawer as my personal drawer 5 for my personal belongings. 6 Q Had you received permission to do 7 that? 8 A I didn't feel I needed permission. 9 It was an empty drawer. 10 Q Were the other effects kept in that 11 drawer, or were they in other drawers as 12 well? 13 A No, they were all in that drawer. 14 Q Now, you say there was more about 15 that incident. What else was about that 16 incident? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: Did I say there was 19 more about that incident? 20 MR. FLINT: Objection. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Didn't you say you talked to Kathy 1 about other things as well concerning Linda 2 Tripp? 3 A Oh, you mean different incidents 4 than that? 5 Q Yes. 6 A You know, I know I did but I don't 7 recall any specific incidents that I may have 8 relayed other than probably my feelings for 9 her and, you know, what my feelings were 10 based upon, but I cannot recall any specific 11 incidents. 12 Q You did relay incidents concerning 13 Vince Foster, didn't you, to Kathy and other 14 people in the last few years? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You did talk about all the events 19 concerning the death of Vince Foster with 20 other people in the last few years, correct? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: You mean besides the 1 testimony I was called to give? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we please stop 3 talking here? We have a lot of lawyers in 4 this room. It would be nice if we could be 5 respectful of each other. Please don't talk 6 during my questioning. These are not trick 7 questions. They're very simple questions. I 8 don't understand this. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I 10 didn't say a word of objection. Consulting 11 with Mr. Gaffney about something else. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: The form of your 13 question is objectionable. I'm trying to 14 minimize the number of objections. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: You're entitled to 16 make an objection, Mr. Gaffney. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm aware of that. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Just say objection to 19 form. Please don't talk in the middle of it. 20 I can't concentrate. 21 THE WITNESS: There was a question 22 pending? I'm sorry. I don't know what -- I 1 can't remember what it was. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you talk to some of the people 4 that you have identified this morning who 5 worked for Williams & Connolly or still work 6 for Williams & Connolly about the death of 7 Vince Foster? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: No. My friend Kathy 10 I talked to about the death of Vince Foster 11 and probably Judy Hope peripherally but not 12 in any detail. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp's 15 involvement, if any, in the death of Vince 16 Foster in terms of the events that occurred 17 after that with these people? 18 A In terms of what events that 19 followed Vince Foster's death? 20 Q For example, your different 21 accounts of what happened following Vince 22 Foster's death? 1 A My different accounts or Linda's 2 different accounts? 3 Q Either. 4 A Actually, I didn't really know that 5 Linda's account differed from mine at the 6 time. 7 Q Well, have you talked about it with 8 anybody at Williams & Connolly? 9 A No, I talked to my friend Kathy, 10 who's not been at Williams & Connolly since 11 1968. 12 Q And my question was either people 13 that are still there or who have left? 14 A No, people that are still there. 15 Q So you did talk to your friend 16 Kathy about matters involving the death of 17 Vince Foster? 18 A I sure did. 19 Q And what did you tell her? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 21 relevancy. 22 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 1 This is very far afield. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not very far 3 afield. That's fine. Make your objection. 4 Let's move on. All you have to do is say 5 relevancy, Mr. Flint. You don't have to make 6 sarcastic comments. 7 MR. FLINT: You're the one who 8 makes all the lectures. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm getting quadruple 10 teamed here and I can't conduct simple 11 questioning with very simple questions which 12 on their face are quite benign. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Could you read back 14 the question, please? 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 MR. GREEN: We'd like to take a 18 recess. Videographer, can we go off, please? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 20 video record at 10:48. 21 (Recess) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 1 video record at 10:58. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the 3 last question? 4 (The reporter read the record as 5 requested.) 6 MR. FLINT: Objection, and I do 7 want to express the nature of this objection. 8 It seems to me that Vince Foster's death is a 9 matter that's far afield from anything 10 involved in this litigation. There is a 11 narrow area about activities thereafter -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we do this 13 without Ms. Pond in the room? Can we talk 14 about this without Ms. Pond in the room? 15 It's a speaking objection. I don't want her 16 to hear your theory of this unless she 17 already has. Has she already heard this? 18 From you, I mean, during the break -- 19 MR. FLINT: I'm not going to talk 20 about my conversations with Ms. Pond during 21 the break, Mr. Klayman. It seems to me that 22 there's a limited area of any potential 1 relevance and that has to do with matters 2 after the death and matters going into the 3 Vince Foster death are entirely irrelevant 4 and outside the scope of this litigation. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not interested in 6 whether it was a suicide or otherwise. I'm 7 not interested in those issues. I'm 8 interested in a free flow discussion and 9 response so she can tell me what was 10 discussed because if you don't limit her in 11 the question, if you just ask a general 12 question, she might be more forthcoming with 13 information that indeed is relevant. 14 And you recognize that it's 15 relevant because in fact on her behalf you 16 produced information concerning Vince Foster 17 and documents that were removed from Vince 18 Foster's office and documents that were 19 created. So I asked the question just in a 20 general way. 21 I don't want a long discourse, and 22 I don't want to get into the issue of whether 1 it's a suicide or otherwise. I just want to 2 see what she'll tell me that she was 3 discussing. Because it looks to me, from the 4 documents that you've produced, that she was 5 concerned about going into Vince Foster's 6 office about the issue of looking at 7 documents, rearranging the desk, removing 8 documents. I just want to get a free flow 9 response. This is not intended in any way to 10 intrude on irrelevant areas. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: I object as a 12 complete mischaracterization of the document 13 that you're summarizing and I join the 14 relevance objections. Absolutely out of 15 bounds. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: It seems to me -- 17 MR. FLINT: And I will tell you 18 that the document that was responded to, the 19 polygraph test, was responded to because it 20 was responsive to the subpoena request that 21 dealt with documents coming out of Vince 22 Foster's office and for that narrow purpose 1 alone. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct, and I'd like 3 to get an unfettered response and what is 4 delaying this, and I submit for the record 5 this deposition did begin an hour late 6 because government counsel and Mr. Gaffney 7 apparently didn't check the subpoena where it 8 said 9:00 a.m. We waited for you as a matter 9 of courtesy. We're trying to be courteous. 10 But I'm getting triple and sometimes 11 quadruple teamed on questions. My questions 12 are very simple. They're not trick questions 13 and I feel like you're trying to harass me 14 here. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I object. 16 MR. FLINT: I object to that 17 entirely, Mr. Klayman. It seems to me your 18 questions are of such a vague nature that 19 they don't show any attempt to make them 20 relevant to the proceeding that we're 21 involved in. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm trying to make my 1 questions simple. I'm trying to make them 2 common sense-like. I'm trying not to talk 3 like a lawyer so she can understand me. 4 She's obviously not a lawyer. So I'm trying 5 to be agreeable here and it's no intention on 6 our part to make this difficult. I just want 7 to move along. I'm just trying to get some 8 background information, and if I'm limited in 9 my question and just ask a pinpoint question 10 I'll get no and nothing else. I want to see 11 what she'll offer. 12 This is a reasonable latitude, but 13 I'm not going to pursue issues as to who 14 killed Vince Foster or whether he committed 15 suicide. I have no interest in that. 16 Can we read back the question 17 again? And just for the record, it's our 18 position that this whole scenario does not 19 count against our time. 20 MR. FLINT: I'm not sure that I 21 agree with that, Mr. Klayman. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't think you 1 would, Mr. Flint, but that's our position. 2 (The reporter read the record as 3 requested.) 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Will you note my 5 relevancy objection and objection to form? 6 THE WITNESS: I probably related 7 what a sad incident it was, what a tragedy, 8 and I'm not sure of any specifics that I 9 would have gone into, just how very upsetting 10 it was that someone was in so much pain and 11 you couldn't help them. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What pain was he in? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 15 Relevancy. 16 MR. FLINT: I object and the 17 relevancy of that is certainly not obvious. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Foster worked in The White 20 House Counsel's Office, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And as part of his duties and 1 responsibilities, he played a role in 2 reviewing new appointees as well as holdover 3 employees, correct? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 6 Mr. Foster's duties were. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that he consulted 9 with Mr. William Kennedy from time to time 10 about security background checks of holdover 11 employees and political appointees? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Well, I'm going to ask you the 16 question. What did you observe to be his 17 distress or pain, as you put it? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 19 relevancy. 20 MR. FLINT: Objection. I don't see 21 that the predicate questions had anything to 22 do with that question, and that clearly is 1 not relevant. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A Actually, it was the act of suicide 5 reveals that he was obviously in a lot of 6 pain rather than anything that I noticed. It 7 was the aftermath of his death that I thought 8 he must have been in so much pain to have 9 done -- to have killed himself, and that's 10 what was so sad. 11 Q Did you relay to Kathy that 12 Mr. Foster was troubled by what he had seen 13 taking place in The White House Counsel's 14 Office? 15 A No. 16 Q Did he ever express to you that he 17 was troubled at some of the things that were 18 going on there? 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You don't have to 21 object to relevancy. That's a substantive 22 objection, Mr. Flint. You can preserve that 1 for trial. Federal rules say you have to 2 object now as to form. I ask as a matter of 3 professional courtesy not to interrupt, 4 particularly since it has a tendency to try 5 to tell the witness something. Please 6 respond. 7 THE WITNESS: No, he did not 8 confide in me that there were any problems in 9 The White House Counsel's Office. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know what he worked on at 12 The White House Counsel's Office? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q When you had this discussion with 15 Kathy, did you discuss any aspect of your 16 being in Mr. Foster's office immediately 17 before and after he died? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you discuss with Kathy being in 1 Foster's office in and around the time of his 2 death? 3 A I don't recall. That was not what 4 I was upset about. I think that I probably 5 would have talked about how sad Mr. Foster's 6 death was rather than anything relating to my 7 going into his office. 8 Q Have you had any discussions about 9 any other incidents involving Linda Tripp 10 with the people that you identified this 11 morning? You said there were many incidents. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: You mean did I 14 recount any specific details or did I just 15 have general conversations with -- 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I'm just trying to get the truth, 18 Ms. Pond. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 20 insinuation. 21 MR. FLINT: Objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q It's no insinuation. I'm trying to 2 be helpful and to get Ms. Pond to understand 3 that I'm not trying to trick you in anything. 4 If you don't understand a question, just let 5 me know. I'm trying to make them as simple 6 as possible. But just tell me what you 7 discussed about Linda Tripp with these people 8 in the last two or three years, just what 9 incidents. You said there were incidents? 10 A Well, actually, when you say these 11 people, I am narrowing that to include my 12 friend Kathy, because I don't recall any 13 conversations I had with the other three 14 people that I mentioned, so I would limit it 15 to my friend Kathy, and she's been my closest 16 friend for many years, and I just don't 17 recall all of the incidents that I would have 18 laid out. 19 Q Well, for instance, you stated 20 earlier that you referred Linda Tripp to Judy 21 Hope for a lawyer. When did you make that 22 referral? 1 A I believe it was in probably March 2 of '94, March or April. 3 Q What events led to your making a 4 referral of Linda Tripp to Judy Hope? 5 A I believe that there was a memo 6 that went out, and if my memory serves me it 7 was from Joel Kline and it announced that 8 these subpoenas -- the subpoenas would be 9 forthcoming, and I think it said that you 10 should obtain counsel if you felt you needed 11 it or you wanted to be guided by counsel. 12 I cannot recall the specific 13 language, and I remember that we were 14 standing around and Judy -- Linda said she 15 didn't know any counsel -- she didn't know 16 any lawyers, and I said maybe my friend Judy 17 could represent you, knowing that Judy is a 18 Republican, Linda's a Republican, they would 19 feel comfortable with each other. 20 And I called Judy and asked her if 21 she would be willing to talk to Ms. Tripp and 22 she said yes, and I have not had a 1 conversation about Ms. Tripp with Ms. Hope 2 since that time. 3 Q Have you ever used Ms. Hope as a 4 lawyer? 5 A I have worked for Ms. Hope many 6 times. 7 Q Well, did you ever retain her 8 yourself to do anything on your behalf? 9 A No, I don't think so. 10 Q Have you ever asked her to do 11 anything on your behalf? 12 A I asked her to refer me to a lawyer 13 in this proceeding. 14 Q And when did you make that request? 15 A When I found out that -- in 16 December, when this Filegate stuff started 17 coming out. 18 Q You asked Ms. Hope to refer you to 19 a lawyer after you learned that Linda Tripp 20 had testified in this case? 21 A Yes, that she had named me. 22 Q How did you find out she had 1 testified in this case? 2 A I was called by the government 3 lawyers. 4 Q Who called you? 5 A I think it was Betsy. 6 Q Betsy Shapiro? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What did Ms. Shapiro say to you 9 when she called you? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. I 11 instruct the witness not to answer that 12 question as to the substance of our 13 conversation. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: She just did. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I did instruct her? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: No. She just said 17 that you had contacted her and told her about 18 it. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, that's fine. 20 She can say she contacted me and she spoke to 21 me, but she can't testify as to the substance 22 of the conversation. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did anyone else contact you from 3 the government? 4 A No. 5 Q Did Ms. Shapiro identify herself as 6 a lawyer when she called you? 7 A Yes. 8 Q So after Ms. Shapiro talked to you 9 you then contacted Judy Hope? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you ask Ms. Hope to represent 12 you? 13 A No, I didn't. I thought it -- that 14 she wouldn't be able to because of her prior 15 representation of Ms. Tripp, so I didn't ask 16 her, and she didn't volunteer. 17 Q When you referred Linda Tripp to 18 Judy Hope, you said you need to find an 19 administration-friendly lawyer? 20 A No, I did not. 21 Q You did tell Ms. Tripp that, 22 though, generally, didn't you? 1 A No, I did not. 2 Q You are aware that Williams & 3 Connolly represents Mr. and Mrs. Clinton, 4 correct? 5 A Yes, I am. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And you're you were aware of that 9 at the time that you referred Ms. Tripp to 10 Williams & Connolly, correct? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 MR. FLINT: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: I didn't. I didn't 15 refer her to Williams & Connolly. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Ms. Hope works for Williams & 18 Connolly, correct? 19 A No, she does not. 20 Q Who does she work for? 21 A She works for Paul Hastings. She 22 worked for Williams & Connolly and she left 1 in 1968, I believe. 2 Q And Ms. Hope then referred you to 3 your current counsel? 4 A Yes, she did. 5 Q Who, if anyone, is paying the legal 6 fees for your current counsel? Please 7 respond. 8 A I imagine that they will be covered 9 by the government in part. 10 Q How do you know that? 11 A Because when the original subpoenas 12 came out in the Vince Foster matter there was 13 a cover memo that came out that said if you 14 were asked to testify in a proceeding that 15 resulted from your work for the Federal 16 Government that you would be entitled to seek 17 representation from the government. 18 Q Well, is Ms. Shapiro representing 19 you today, Ms. Pond? 20 A Yes, I guess. 21 Q Did she ever tell you that she's 22 representing you? 1 A She's representing the government. 2 Q Has anyone ever told you that 3 Ms. Shapiro is representing you here today? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Who told you that? 6 A I don't know. Ms. Shapiro. 7 Q You're not sure? 8 A Well, I have my counsel and then 9 Ms. Shapiro is counsel for the government, 10 which is representing me as -- in my capacity 11 as a government employee. 12 Q So you've got a commitment from the 13 government to pay for your private counsel in 14 addition to using Ms. Shapiro of the Justice 15 Department? 16 A No. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 20 THE WITNESS: I have no commitment 21 from anyone. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q So as far as you're concerned you 2 don't know who's going to pay the legal fees? 3 A I would hope that my legal fees 4 would be honored under the code that allows 5 attorneys to be reimbursed. 6 Q Do you know whether your attorneys 7 have asked for any commitment from the 8 government to pay their legal fees? 9 MR. GREEN: Object to the 10 relevance. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection, relevancy. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you yourself question why you 15 have private counsel never having a 16 commitment that anyone would pay for them? 17 Have you questioned that? 18 A No. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Sidley & Austin is an 22 administration-friendly law firm, is it not? 1 MR. FLINT: Objection. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. FLINT: Form. 4 THE WITNESS: I would not know. 5 The person who referred me to Sidley & Austin 6 was Judy Hope, who is a Republican, and I do 7 not know -- she did not say that Sid Sidley & 8 Austin was an administration-free law firm. 9 I have no idea. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Administration friendly. 12 A I don't know that. 13 Q Do you know Steven Waudby? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q Did you refer Steven Waudby to 16 Sidley & Austin? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q Do you know whose paying for Steven 19 Waudby's legal fee? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Did he ever tell you? 22 A No, I have not talked to 1 Mr. Waudby. 2 Q Do you know Terry Good? 3 A I know who he is. 4 Q Do you know who's representing 5 Terry Good in this case you're here today on? 6 A I've been told that Sidley & Austin 7 is. 8 Q Where did you hear that? 9 A From my attorneys. 10 Q Do you know who's paying for 11 Mr. Good's legal fees? 12 A I do not. 13 Q Have you had any contact with 14 anyone at Williams & Connolly or the 15 predecessor law firm in the last three years 16 where you have discussed issues concerning 17 what has become known as the Filegate 18 controversy? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever discussed Linda Tripp 21 with Mr. Povich in the last three years? 22 A I don't believe so. 1 Q But you're not sure? 2 A No. I would say no, that I 3 haven't. 4 Q If I was to subpoena Mr. Povich, 5 would he confirm that? 6 A Probably. 7 Q Have you discussed issues involving 8 Craig Livingstone or William Kennedy with 9 anyone at Williams & Connolly in the last 10 three years? 11 A No. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 It's Craig Livingstone, for the record. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Have you ever discussed with anyone 16 at Williams & Connolly anything with regard 17 to the obtaining of FBI files by The White 18 House? 19 A No. 20 Q Who are your closest friends 21 currently? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection, relevancy. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A Kathy Duvall, Gale Massot, Judy 5 Hope. 6 Q And forgive me if I've asked this 7 before. Just to be sure, Kathy Duvall lives 8 where? 9 A Annapolis. 10 Q And do you know where she works 11 right now? 12 A She's retired. 13 Q We know where Judy Hope is, and the 14 third person? 15 A Gail Massot is the language 16 director at Georgetown Day School. 17 Q And she lives in this area? 18 A In Arlington. 19 Q Are there other people that you 20 consider to be your good friends? 21 A I have several good friends, but 22 those are my longest, oldest friends. 1 Q And who are your longest, oldest, 2 friends? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I just named them. 5 Q Who are your other good friends 6 that aren't your longest, oldest friends? 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A I have a friend -- two friends in 11 California who have been my friends for 20 12 years. 13 Q And who are they? 14 A Robyn Perusse. 15 Q And where does she live? 16 A Sonoma. 17 Q And where does she work? 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 19 THE WITNESS: I think the name of 20 the firm is Thomas Anderson & Company. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q In what? 1 A Thomas Anderson & Company in 2 Sonoma. 3 Q And who else? 4 A Mary Thayer lives in California. 5 Q Where does she live? 6 A Walnut Creek. 7 Q And where's Walnut Creek? 8 A California. 9 Q And who does she work for? 10 A Kaiser. 11 Q Kaiser? 12 A Mm-hmm. 13 Q Kaiser Permanente? 14 A I don't know. Kaiser. 15 Q Anyone else? 16 A Those would be my closest friends. 17 Q And these are people that you stay 18 in contact with on a fairly regular basis? 19 A Yes. 20 Q These are people that you share 21 aspects of your life with? 22 A Yes. 1 Q Is there anybody else who you would 2 share aspects of your life with routinely? 3 A No. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 5 relevancy. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you ever kept a diary? 8 A No. 9 Q Have you ever written down your 10 thoughts? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you ever put on a Dictaphone 13 or a tape recorder what was going on in your 14 life? 15 A No. 16 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for purposes of 18 the record, Mr. Flint, tell me what is 19 irrelevant about that. I just want to get an 20 understanding so the court can understand 21 your modus operandi here. 22 MR. FLINT: Nothing to do with 1 anything involved in this litigation, 2 Mr. Klayman, and you know that. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying 4 whether she records things going on in her 5 life is not relevant? Is that what you're 6 saying? 7 Thank you for the clarification. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q When you moved from Williams & 10 Connolly to California who did you go for 11 work for? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I worked for the 14 California Rural Legal Assistance Program. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q And where was that? 17 A San Francisco. 18 Q And what position did you take 19 there? 20 A I worked for the director of the 21 organization. 22 Q And who was that? 1 A His name was Jim Lorenz. Jim 2 Lorenz. 3 Q And what were your duties and 4 responsibilities? 5 A Just ordinary office 6 administrative, whatever. I can't really 7 remember what my duties -- 8 Q You were a secretary? 9 A Yeah. Yes. 10 Q And how long did you work there? 11 A A year and a half. 12 Q Who were some of the other people 13 that worked there at that time? 14 A I really -- I don't remember any 15 names specifically. 16 Q Do you have any brothers and 17 sisters? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 Q And you regularly confide in them 20 as well, correct? 21 A No, I don't. 22 Q You don't tell them anything? 1 A Of course, I tell them some things, 2 but I don't discuss work with them. 3 Q Who are your brothers and sisters? 4 A I have a brother named Richard. 5 Q And where does he live? 6 A New Jersey. 7 Q Where in New Jersey? 8 A Plainfield. 9 Q And who does he work for? 10 A I'm not sure. 11 Q What type of work does he do? 12 A Electrician. 13 Q And what's his last name? 14 A Same as mine. 15 Q Pond. Do you have any other 16 brothers? 17 A No. 18 Q Any sisters? 19 A Yes, I have two sisters. 20 Q And what are their names? 21 A Sally Weaver. 22 Q And where does she live? 1 A Manassas, Virginia. 2 Q And where does she work? 3 A Actually, she works for a 4 telemarketing firm, and I'm not sure what the 5 name of it is. 6 Q And what's your other sister's 7 name? 8 A Lori Mosconi. 9 Q And where does she live? 10 A Ohio. 11 Q What city? 12 A I think it's Kettering. 13 Q Kettering? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Does she work somewhere? 16 A No. 17 Q Any half-brothers and sisters? 18 A No. 19 Q Are you in regular contact with 20 your brothers and sisters? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Why did you relocate from 1 Washington, D.C., to San Francisco? 2 A I thought it sounded like wonderful 3 fun. 4 Q Did you leave your job at Williams 5 & Connolly voluntarily? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What did you do after you worked 12 for the California Rural Legal Assistance 13 Program? 14 A I returned to Washington. 15 Q And when was that? 16 A The end of 1968. 17 Q And why did you return to 18 Washington? 19 A I was homesick. 20 Q And did you get a job when you 21 returned to Washington? 22 A I did. 1 Q Where did you get a job? 2 A A law firm by the name of Wadden & 3 Dyson. 4 Q And the first names of each those 5 partners, what was Wadden's first name? 6 A Tom and Tom. 7 Q And who did you work for in that 8 law firm? 9 A Mr. Wadden and Mr. Dyson. 10 Q And what type of work did you do? 11 A I was the secretary. 12 Q How long did you stay at that law 13 firm? 14 A Two years. 15 Q Why did you leave? 16 A The law firm broke up. 17 Q During the time that you worked at 18 that law firm, did you get good job reviews? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Were they ever critical about your 21 work performance? 22 A No. 1 Q Were they ever critical about 2 anything else? 3 A No. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Up to that point in time, had you 7 ever been reviewed in your employment 8 situations both at Williams & Connolly and in 9 California? 10 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 11 and relevancy. 12 THE WITNESS: You know, I don't 13 remember whether it was a formal process, 14 whether there were files kept or whether it 15 was oral or whether when you were given a 16 raise you were told that you'd been doing a 17 good job. It was a lot less formal in those 18 days. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever received, up to that 21 point in time that you left Wadden & Dyson, 22 any criticism in your job performance at any 1 of your positions? 2 A No, I had not. 3 Q And what did you do after you left 4 Wadden & Dyson? 5 A I went to work for a small law firm 6 in Washington. 7 Q And what was the name of that? 8 A The first name was Kuder, second 9 name Sherman, third name Fox & Meehan. 10 Q And how long did you work there? 11 A I'm really not sure. I would 12 probably say two years. 13 Q And what were your duties and 14 responsibilities? 15 A I was a secretary. 16 Q Whose secretary were you? 17 A Mr. Meehan's. 18 Q And who else did you work with at 19 the firm besides Mr. Meehan? 20 A I think that's about it. 21 Q And during that period, did you 22 receive job reviews? 1 A There again I'm not -- are you 2 talking written reviews, oral reviews, or -- 3 Q Either written or oral. 4 A My answer would be the same. It 5 was when you were given a raise you were told 6 that you were doing a good job and that you 7 were getting a raise or a bonus or whatever. 8 Q Did you ever receive any criticism 9 of any kind? 10 A No, I did not. 11 Q How long did you stay there? 12 A I said I think it was about two 13 years. 14 Q So you left in 1970? 15 A I'm not sure whether it was '70, 16 '71 -- no, it couldn't have been '70. I'm 17 just not sure of the exact date. 18 Q Around that period? 19 A Yeah, it could have been until, 20 like, 1972, about in that period. 21 Q And did you do anything 22 professionally after you left? 1 A Yes, I had a job. 2 Q Where did you get a job? 3 A I worked for the Lawyers Committee 4 for Civil Rights. 5 Q And what were your duties and 6 responsibilities there? 7 A I was a secretary. 8 Q And who did you work for? 9 A A person by the name of Bob 10 Wallace. 11 Q And specifically what did you do as 12 a secretary? 13 A We did complaints, briefs, 14 interrogatories, things of that nature. 15 Q Who else worked at the Lawyers 16 Committee for Civil Rights at that time? 17 A I only remember first names -- no, 18 the director's name was Rod Boggs, and the 19 rest of the people I can only remember first 20 names. 21 Q Did Hillary Clinton work for that 22 group? 1 A No. 2 Q Did anyone who was part of the 3 Clinton Administration from 1992 forward work 4 for that group? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware 7 of. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How long did you stay with the 10 Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights? 11 A Until 1974. 12 Q Did you receive job reviews when 13 you were at the Lawyers Committee for Civil 14 Rights? 15 A I'm sure I did. 16 Q Was there anything that was said 17 about you in those job reviews that was 18 negative? 19 A No. 20 Q What happened in 1974 21 professionally? 22 A I went to work for the House 1 Judiciary Committee. 2 Q How did you get that job? 3 A I called and asked for an 4 interview. 5 Q And who did you talk to? 6 A I think I talked to Bob Shelton. 7 Q And who was he? 8 A He was a lawyer, but I think he was 9 trying to staff up the Committee. He was 10 from Baltimore, and I don't know what his 11 duties were except that he was hiring people. 12 Q You wanted to work for the House 13 Judiciary Committee? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q And why did you want to work for 16 the House Judiciary Committee? 17 A I thought that it was going to be a 18 historical event. 19 Q And the event you're talking about 20 is Watergate, correct? 21 A It was called the Special 22 Impeachment Inquiry Staff. 1 Q At that point in time, how would 2 you describe your political views? To the 3 left, to the right, center? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 5 relevance. 6 MR. FLINT: Objection to form and 7 relevancy. 8 THE WITNESS: Actually, my 9 political views all of my life have neither 10 gone one way or -- actually, they have gone 11 one way or the other depending on the people 12 rather than the party. I have -- 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q The Washington Lawyers Committee 15 for Civil Rights -- 16 MR. GREEN: I'm sorry. Did you 17 have something more to say? 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q The Washington Lawyers Committee 21 for Civil Rights, that is a group which is 22 thought of as being to the left, correct? 1 That's their representation in the community? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 3 relevancy. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know what its 5 reputation is as far as left or right. It's 6 helping poor people. That's all I know. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q When you approached the House 9 Judiciary Committee to work for it, you did 10 not have a favorable impression of the Nixon 11 Administration; did you? 12 A Actually, I was more interested in 13 the historical aspects of working on the 14 impeachment staff, rather than my feelings 15 toward Richard Nixon. 16 Q You didn't care much for Richard 17 Nixon? 18 A Probably not. 19 Q You've always been somewhat 20 politically knowledgeable, correct? You 21 follow what goes on in Washington, D.C.? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 THE WITNESS: I'd say I do. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You're pretty interested in issues 4 involving government? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: What kind of issues? 7 Do you mean policy issues? 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Generally. 10 A I'm interested in what goes on in 11 the world. 12 Q When you contacted Mr. Shelton, 13 what did you tell him? 14 A I asked if I could have an 15 interview, that I was interested in working 16 on the staff. And he told me to come up the 17 next morning, and I went up for an interview. 18 Q Tell me everything that happened 19 that led to your ultimately getting a job 20 there. 21 A I just did. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You had the interview? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What was discussed at the 5 interview? 6 A I do not know. That was so many 7 years ago. 8 Q Did you meet other people? 9 A I don't believe so. I think I just 10 met Mr. Shelton. 11 Q Did you get references to submit to 12 try to get that job? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q You got the job at the House 15 Judiciary Committee; I take it? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What were you hired to do? 18 A Just be a secretary, office worker, 19 staffer. 20 Q What specifically were your duties 21 responsibilities as secretary and office 22 worker? 1 A In the beginning, you know, we did 2 everything, and eventually, we worked on 3 specific assignments, and the assignment that 4 I worked on was domestic intelligence. 5 Q What was domestic intelligence? 6 What did that mean? 7 A It meant -- I guess that it was 8 focussed on the work that certain groups did 9 in obtaining domestic intelligence, and 10 whether that was legal or not. 11 Q The groups being Republican groups? 12 A I don't know if they were 13 Republican. 14 Q The groups being the Nixon 15 Administration? 16 A I don't remember if they were 17 members of the Nixon Administration. Some of 18 them may have been consultants. I don't know 19 if they worked within the Nixon 20 Administration. 21 Q Do you remember a group called the 22 Plumbers? 1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q That was one of the domestic 3 intelligence groups? 4 A Yes, it was. 5 Q Do you remember Cuban-Americans 6 being part of the Plumbers? 7 A No, I don't. 8 Q Do you remember people by the name 9 of Gordon Liddy? 10 A I remember Gordon Liddy's name, 11 yes. 12 Q Those were the kinds of groups that 13 you were working on, as part of domestic 14 intelligence? 15 A That was one group. I don't know 16 that there were any other groups. I'm just 17 not sure. 18 Q You were assigned to work with 19 various people in this domestic intelligence 20 unit? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who were you assigned to work with? 1 A I worked with an attorney named 2 Richard Gill. 3 Q Do you know where he is today? 4 A In a state like Alabama. 5 Q You stayed in contact with him, 6 too? 7 A No, and Mr. Nussbaum was the head 8 of that group. 9 Q Mr. Bernie Nussbuam? 10 A Actually -- yes. 11 Q Working in that group was Hillary 12 Rodham Clinton? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you come to know Hillary Rodham 15 Clinton in your job at the Judiciary 16 Committee? 17 A She was a colleague, Hillary 18 Rodham. 19 Q Did you sometimes do work for her 20 or with her? 21 A No. 22 Q You did have contact with her 1 though? 2 A Yeah, we had contact with everyone. 3 Q You talked to her when you were on 4 the committee, correct? 5 A Occasionally, yeah. 6 Q You got to know her? 7 A No, not intimately. 8 Q You got to be friendly with her, 9 correct? 10 A What do you characterize as 11 friendly? 12 Q What do you characterize as 13 friendly? 14 A I characterize friendly is, I try 15 to be polite and friendly with everyone that 16 I work with, but intimate with few, and I 17 would characterize my relationship with 18 Ms. Rodham as being friendly. 19 Q When you worked on the House 20 Judiciary Committee, you were aware that 21 Ms. Rodham worked closely with Bernard 22 Nussbuam, correct? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know. No, I 3 don't know that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You saw Mrs. Rodham in contact with 6 Mr. Nussbaum from time to time? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: We all worked on one 9 little floor, so we were all in contact with 10 each other all the time, but I do not know 11 that Ms. Rodham worked under Mr. Nussbaum 12 directly. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So it was a very small office? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was a floor 17 of a hotel. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q What hotel was that? 20 A The Old Congressional Hotel. 21 Q Where was that located? 22 A New Jersey Avenue. 1 Q Do you know what Hillary Rodham was 2 doing on the Judiciary Committee when you 3 worked there? 4 A My thought was that she worked in 5 Constitutional law. 6 Q How did you find that out? 7 A You know, I don't know, as I'm just 8 sitting here. There was a group that worked 9 on Constitutional law and provided parts of 10 research. 11 Q Did you ever do any work for the 12 group that worked on Constitutional law? 13 A No. 14 Q Members of the office, the staff, 15 sometimes went out to have a drink or have 16 dinner after work, correct? 17 A Mm-hmm. 18 Q You sometimes went out with 19 Ms. Rodham, in the presence of Ms. Rodham? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that. 22 I don't recall specifically whether she was 1 among a group that I might have gone out 2 with, but I'm not saying that she wasn't. I 3 just don't have any recollection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did the lawyers in that committee 6 discriminate against the secretaries who 7 refused to go out to dinner with them or go 8 out to have a drink? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Frequently lawyers and secretaries 13 would go out together, right? 14 A Yes, mm-hmm. 15 Q It's likely that Ms. Rodham did go 16 out socially with members of the staff and 17 you from time to time? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 20 THE WITNESS: I just said that I 21 don't recall whether we ever went out to 22 dinner or did anything together, but I'm not 1 saying that it didn't happen. I just don't 2 recall any specific incidents. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q While you worked at the House 5 Judiciary Committee, you met Bill Clinton? 6 A No. 7 Q He never visited? 8 A No. 9 Q You never had any contact with him 10 during those years? 11 A No. 12 Q Were you aware that Ms. Rodham was 13 married to Bill Clinton at that time? 14 A No. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q How long did you work in the House 18 Judiciary Committee? 19 A From approximately, January or 20 February through August. 21 Q Of what year? 22 A 1974. 1 Q During that period of time, you 2 came to learn that the Nixon Administration 3 had done some very bad things, correct? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 6 coming to learn that the Nixon 7 Administration -- there were Articles of 8 Impeachment were voted out of the Committee 9 that made allegations of wrongdoing. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Correct. 12 A Right. 13 Q Correct? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q You formed an opinion that there 16 was a good reason for those Articles of 17 Impeachment, correct? 18 A I'm not a lawyer, so I did 19 understand the legality of them, but I 20 understood the nature of the charges, and 21 they were serious charges. 22 Q You understood that the Nixon 1 Administration was a Republican 2 Administration, correct? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q During that period of time, you 5 formed a negative view of Republicans, did 6 you not? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: My next job was 10 working in the Ford Administration, so I 11 don't think I had a negative view of 12 Republicans. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But you had a negative view of 15 Nixon? 16 A Actually -- yes, I did, but I felt 17 sorry for him. 18 Q What did you understand was the 19 nature of the impeachment charges against 20 Nixon? 21 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 22 relevancy. 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you repeat the 2 question, please? I'm sorry. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What did you understand was the 5 nature of the impeachment charges against 6 President Nixon? 7 A What were the charges, 8 specifically? Like obstruction of justice, 9 and -- that's the only one I remember. 10 Q You understood the obstruction of 11 justice to mean that he had lied to the 12 American people? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 14 relevancy. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what I 16 understood. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What did you understand? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: Can you narrow that 21 down? I mean, what do you mean, what did I 22 understand? 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you understand at that time 3 that President Nixon had been charged with 4 lying to the American people, destroying 5 documents? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Destroying documents? 8 A I didn't know that any documents 9 were stolen -- destroyed. 10 Q Covering up a scandal? 11 A Yes. 12 Q You viewed that as very serious, 13 correct? 14 A Mm-hmm. Yes, I did. 15 Q During the time that you worked on 16 the House Judiciary Committee, did you ever 17 hear Hillary Rodham say anything? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 MR. FLINT: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: You mean, like could 22 she talk? 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q I'm not making fun of anybody here. 3 I'm just asking a simple question. 4 A Well, I don't -- well, I heard her 5 talk. 6 Q Did you ever hear her express any 7 opinion about what Nixon had done and was 8 charged with? 9 A No, I did not. 10 Q You ever hear anybody in the office 11 express any opinion about Nixon's impeachment 12 charges? 13 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 14 relevancy. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's why we 17 were there. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q In fact, people had rather strong 20 opinions about what Nixon had done, correct? 21 A Actually, Mr. Klayman, there were 22 two parts to the Judiciary Committee. One 1 was the minority staff, and one was the 2 majority staff, so there were two people -- 3 two sets of people working on the same floor. 4 Q You worked on the minority staff? 5 A I did work on the -- I did some 6 work for minority members. 7 Q Excuse me. You worked for the 8 majority staff; I'm sorry. 9 A Yes, I did, but I also did work for 10 minority members. 11 Q Did you ask to work for the 12 majority staff? 13 A No, I did not. 14 Q The majority staff were Democrats, 15 correct? 16 A I would assume that they would have 17 been, but I don't know if that's how people 18 were picked, because they were Democrats. I 19 just don't have any knowledge. 20 Q During the time that you worked on 21 the House Judiciary Committee, did you ever 22 hear Hillary Clinton or Bernard Nussbuam say, 1 gee, if we had committed this crime, we could 2 have done it in a way that we weren't caught? 3 You ever hear anything like that? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection as to form. 5 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 6 and relevancy. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Did you hear them talk about how 10 Nixon could have done it so he wasn't caught? 11 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 12 relevancy. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection 14 and form. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did Mr. Shelton ask you about your 18 politics in your interview for the job? 19 A No, he did not. 20 Q Did you receive job performance 21 reviews when you worked on the House 22 Judiciary Committee? 1 A No. 2 Q During the time that you worked on 3 the House Judiciary Committee, you formed a 4 friendship with Mrs. Rodham; did you not? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 6 answered. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. I was 8 acquainted with her. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did she ever prepare any 11 recommendations for you for future 12 employment, Mrs. Rodham? 13 A No. 14 Q Have you ever told anyone that you 15 were close to Mrs. Clinton, when you worked 16 on the House Judiciary Committee? 17 A No. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever told anyone in the 21 last seven years that you worked with 22 Mrs. Clinton on the House Judiciary 1 Committee? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Who did you tell that? 4 A Just -- God, I don't know. When 5 Clinton started to run for President, I 6 remembered that I worked with Hillary a long 7 time ago, and I'm sure I mentioned it, you 8 know, I used to work with her. 9 Q Who did you mention it to? 10 A I don't know, Mr. Klayman. You 11 know, it could have been anybody. 12 Q You mentioned it to the people that 13 you identified this morning that you're close 14 with? 15 A No, it could have been anyone. 16 Q You were quite proud of having 17 worked with her, right? 18 A It wasn't so much as being proud as 19 here she was, you know. I didn't really know 20 her at the impeachment staff, so, you know, I 21 wouldn't know whether -- I wouldn't have 22 known -- it wasn't proudness. It was 1 happiness. 2 Q Why were you happy? 3 A I just was happy. I don't -- 4 Q You were happy, because you now 5 knew someone in a high position of power, 6 correct? 7 A I didn't know her. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't know her. I 10 knew who she was. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q She knew who you were, correct? 13 A I doubt it. I doubt she could pick 14 me out. 15 Q Did you get to know Bernie Nussbuam 16 pretty well when you worked at the Committee? 17 A Yes. 18 Q You worked with him on a regular 19 basis? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What did you do for Mr. Nussbaum? 22 A Actually, Mr. Nussbaum brought his 1 secretary down from New York, and we worked 2 as a team. We worked as a team to support 3 the people in the area that we worked? 4 Q Who was his secretary from New 5 York? 6 A Jane Ricca. 7 Q Do you know where Ms. Ricca is 8 today? 9 A No, I don't. 10 Q Have you spoken with Mr. Nussbaum 11 in the last four years? 12 A Yes. 13 Q When did you speak with him? 14 A I spoke to him at around the time 15 that I found out I had been implicated in the 16 Filegate case, and he advised me to talk to a 17 lawyer, that our conversation was not 18 privileged, and it would be better if we did 19 not talk. 20 Q Did he contact you, or did you 21 contact him? 22 A I contacted him. I was stunned. 1 Q When was this contact? 2 A It probably was right around the 3 time that I found out that I was accused of 4 doing whatever I did with the FBI files. 5 Q In this lawsuit that you're here on 6 today? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Where was Mr. Nussbaum when you 9 called him? 10 A At his office, I imagine. 11 Q This was a telephone call? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You talked to him on more than one 14 occasion? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you start the conversation, or 17 did he start it? 18 A Well, I initiated the call, so I 19 would assume that I started it, but I'm 20 not -- I would have started the conversation 21 like, you're not going to believe this, and 22 I've been implicated in the Filegate case, 1 and I don't know anything about it. How 2 could this happen? He said, get a lawyer. 3 Any conversation you have with me is not 4 privileged, and we can't talk about it. 5 Q How long did the conversation last? 6 A About as long as I just took to 7 relay that. 8 Q He told you to go find a lawyer at 9 Sidley & Austin? 10 A No. 11 Q Where did he tell you to go find a 12 lawyer? 13 A He did not tell me where to find a 14 lawyer. He suggested that I retain a lawyer. 15 Q Did he tell you to go check with 16 Williams & Connolly to refer you to a lawyer? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q At the time you talked to 21 Mr. Nussbaum, he knew that you had worked 22 previously for Williams & Connolly? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection as to form. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 3 THE WITNESS: You know, 4 Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure whether he did know 5 that or not. In his memory -- I mean, I'm 6 sure that I told him at some time that I had 7 worked at Williams & Connolly, or Williams & 8 Stein, but I don't know that he still 9 remembered it, because it wasn't something we 10 talked about a lot of times. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q When you worked on the house 13 Judiciary Committee, you got to know 14 Mr. Nussbaum well, correct? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 16 answered. 17 THE WITNESS: Not very well. I was 18 comfortable with Mr. Nussbaum and his 19 secretary. We spent a lot of time together, 20 and I was fond of both of them. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Mr. Nussbuam, as far as you know, 1 had a favorable impression of your work? 2 A As far as I know. 3 Q Did you talk to Mr. Nussbaum on any 4 other occasions in the last four years? 5 A Yes. I can't -- 6 Q You talk to Mr. Nussbaum fairly 7 regularly, correct? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q When did you leave The White House? 10 A August 1995. 11 Q Since you left The White House, 12 have you ever talked to him about matters 13 involving government files? 14 A No. 15 Q Craig Livingstone? 16 A No. 17 Q William Kennedy? 18 A No. 19 Q Vince Foster? 20 A No. 21 Q We're going to be taking 22 Mr. Nussbaum's deposition shortly, so I'm 1 going to ask him these questions. 2 A Fine. 3 Q Will he tell me the same thing? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you ever discuss matters with 6 Mr. Nussbaum about what was going on in The 7 White House counsel's office? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 10 MR. FLINT: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sure I did. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What did you tell him? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Let me back up. Mr. Nussbaum left 17 before you did, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q He was fired, correct? 20 A He resigned under fire, under fire. 21 Q He was asked to leave, correct? 22 You know that. 1 A I'm just trying to avoid -- 2 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 3 Objection to form, and don't badger the 4 witness. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not badgering 6 her. I couldn't be nicer. 7 THE WITNESS: Actually, I was 8 trying to answer in a lawyer-type way, 9 because he submitted a letter of resignation, 10 which was then accepted by the President. So 11 I don't know whether legally that was being 12 fired, or he resigned. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But you're aware, having worked in 15 The White House Counsel's Office, that The 16 White House had asked for his resignation? 17 A I'm not sure that I knew that. I 18 knew that it was very tumultuous. It was a 19 very -- I'm trying to think of a word to 20 describe it. It was very tense. It was 21 very -- there was a lot of publicity. There 22 was a lot of unfavorable publicity. That's 1 all I can say. 2 Q What did you understand the root 3 cause of the tenseness and the unfavorable 4 publicity to be about? 5 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 6 relevancy and form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 A You know, Mr. Klayman, I'm not real 10 sure. There were several issues going on at 11 the time, and I don't think I've ever been 12 sure on exactly what was going on 13 specifically. 14 Q You're aware that there was a lot 15 of criticism inside The White House that 16 Mr. Nussbaum had mishandled management of the 17 Clinton scandals? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. I never heard -- 21 no one ever said that to -- 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q You were reading the newspapers 2 during the time you worked there, correct? 3 A Right. 4 Q You did see articles in the 5 newspaper criticizing Mr. Nussbaum for not 6 having been responsive to document requests? 7 A What kind of document requests? 8 Q From government bodies 9 investigating the scandals of the Clinton 10 Administration? 11 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: Could be more 14 specific? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You are aware that The Clinton 17 Administration was emersed in what the 18 meeting was calling scandals when you worked 19 there, right? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 21 relevancy. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: There were 3 investigations. I wouldn't go so far as to 4 call them scandals. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You never heard anyone use the word 7 scandals about what was going on at The White 8 House when you worked there? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. You say 11 when I worked there. Are you talking about 12 my co-workers? Are you talking about the 13 media, the press? Exactly who are you 14 referring to? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q During the time that you worked at 17 The White House, did you ever hear from any 18 source reference to the Clinton 19 Administration's conduct as being scandalous? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 21 THE WITNESS: I read a lot of news 22 reports. I don't recall ever hearing anybody 1 within the Administration referring to 2 matters as scandals. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you read about that in the 5 press, that the press was talking about the 6 Clinton Administration's conduct as having 7 caused scandals? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: That's really a 10 characterization that I wouldn't be 11 familiar -- comfortable with saying, 12 scandals. There were investigations. There 13 were questions that were coming up, but I 14 didn't perceive them as being scandals. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q I'm asking you whether you read 17 other people's perceptions of them as 18 scandals in the newspaper. 19 A Well, what I'm saying is, I don't 20 remember if they were referred to as 21 scandals. I'm sure that some of the press 22 that I read referred to them as scandals; 1 others didn't. It's just that I can't say. 2 It's like you're trying to get me to agree 3 that they should be characterized as scandals 4 and -- 5 Q No, I'm just asking you the 6 question. I'm being very careful to ask you 7 whether you heard other people refer to the 8 Clintons' conduct as giving rise to scandals. 9 A I read news reports. 10 Q So you were aware that the Clinton 11 Administration was being accused of having 12 involved itself in scandals? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 14 relevancy and asked and answered. 15 MR. FLINT: Objection, form, 16 relevancy, and redundancy. 17 THE WITNESS: Can I object? I 18 don't -- the word scandal bothers me. There 19 were a lot of investigations, and there were 20 a lot of people that called them scandals, 21 but I personally can't refer to them as 22 scandals. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You don't believe that the Clinton 3 Administration has ever done anything wrong, 4 correct? 5 A Oh, I didn't say that. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 7 relevancy. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What do you understand the Clinton 10 Administration to have done wrong during its 11 years in power? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 13 relevancy, form. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that 15 there would be anything that I would 16 specifically say wrong. I think that there 17 were some poor judgment calls, perhaps, but I 18 don't believe that -- I can't -- nothing 19 comes to my mind that I would consider wrong. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What are the poor judgment calls 22 that you're talking about? 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 2 relevancy. 3 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 4 relevancy. 5 THE WITNESS: Nothing really comes 6 to my mind, specifically. I don't believe I 7 could give you an example. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you aware that when the Clinton 10 Administration came to power in 1992, that 11 President Clinton promised the most ethical 12 administration in America history? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 14 Relevance. 15 THE WITNESS: Didn't he come to 16 power in 1993? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q January 20, 1993, sworn in as 19 President of the United States, he promised 20 the most ethical administration in history, 21 correct? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 2 relevancy. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Can I just remind 4 you, Mr. Klayman, that the court's admonished 5 precisely those kinds of questions as being 6 irrelevant and a waste of time here. I'm not 7 going to instruct her not to answer, but I'd 8 just remind you of the bounds of this 9 examination. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd be happy to 11 submit your analysis of Judge Lamberth's 12 orders to him. We'll see if we can get a 13 clarification. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Please respond. 16 A I'm sorry. Your question was, did 17 the President make a statement promising that 18 his administration would be ethical? 19 Q Yes. 20