1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Thursday, May 27, 1999 12 Deposition of 13 BETSY POND 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, beginning at 17 approximately 10:15 a.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary 20 public in and for the District of Columbia, 21 when were present on behalf on the respective 22 parties: 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE DEBORAH BERLINER, ESQUIRE 4 ROBERT CORRY, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 6 (202) 646-5172 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 8 Office of the President: 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 Federal Programs Branch Civil Division 11 United States Department of Justice 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor 12 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-5302 13 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 14 Investigation: 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE NATALIA LEONS, ESQUIRE 16 Office of General Counsel Federal Bureau of Investigation 17 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. Washington, D.C. 20535 18 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5175 6 On behalf of The White House: 7 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 9 (202) 456-5079 10 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 11 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 12 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 13 (212) 403-1000 14 On behalf of Deponent: 15 MYLES E. FLINT, ESQUIRE JEFFREY T. GREEN, ESQUIRE 16 KRISTIN GRAHAM KOEHLER, ESQUIRE Sidley & Austin 17 1722 I Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20006 18 (202) 736-8228 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 Niki Kopsidas Alana Rutherford 21 22 * * * * * 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7 4 Counsel for Defendants Federal 386 Bureau of Investigation 5 and Executive Office of the President 6 Counsel for Deponent 398 7 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY: 8 Counsel for Plaintiffs 401 9 POND DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 10 No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments 10 11 No. 2 - Letter, Green to Klayman 13 12 No. 3 - Diagram 237 13 14 15 * * * * * 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of Betsy Pond, 4 taken by the counsel for Plaintiff in the 5 matter of Cara Leslie Alexander, et al. v. 6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al., in 7 the U.S. District Court for the District of 8 Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held in the 9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, 10 Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this date, 11 May 27, 1999, and at the time indicated on 12 the video screen, which is 10:02 a.m. 13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm 14 the videographer. The court reporter today 15 is Joan Cain, from the firm of Beta 16 Reporting. 17 Will counsel now introduce 18 themselves? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm Larry Klayman, 20 chairman and general counsel of Judicial 21 Watch. 22 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President 1 Judicial Watch. 2 MS. BERLINER: Deborah Berliner, 3 Judicial Watch. 4 MR. CORRY: Rob Corry, attorney 5 with Judicial Watch. 6 MR. FLINT: Myles Flint, counsel 7 for Betsy Pond. 8 MR. GREEN: Jeffrey Green, Sidley & 9 Austin, counsel for Ms. Pond. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro, 11 representing the Executive Office of the 12 President and FBI. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, also 14 from the Department of Justice also 15 representing the same Defendants. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney on 17 behalf of the First Lady. With me today 18 sitting in the back of the room is Alana 19 Rutherford, a summer associate with my firm. 20 MR. MAZUR: Bernard Mazur, Wachtell 21 Lipton Rosen & Katz; I represent Bernard 22 Nussbuam. 1 MS. KOPSIDAS: Niki Kopsidas, 2 Sidley & Austin legal assistant. 3 MS. RUTHERFORD: Alana Rutherford, 4 Williams & Connolly summer associate. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: You are a legal 6 associate with whom? 7 MS. KOPSIDAS: Sidley & Austin. 8 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson, 9 White House Counsel's Office. 10 MR. PIFER: John Pifer, FBI 11 Counsel's Office. 12 MS. LEONS: FBI counsel's office. 13 MS. KOEHLER: Kristin Koehler, 14 attorney with Sidley & Austin. 15 Whereupon, 16 BETSY POND 17 was called as a witness and, having been 18 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 19 as follows: 20 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Please state your name. 1 A My name is Betsy Pond. 2 Q Do you prefer Mrs. Pond or 3 Ms. Pond? 4 MR. FLINT: Before we start, I have 5 one thing I'd like to put on the record, 6 Mr. Klayman. Excuse me for interrupting you. 7 On May 21 we received a subpoena from the 8 Plaintiffs in this matter and a subpoena 9 duces tecum, and we have earlier today given 10 you a letter response to that petition, and I 11 would like to just read that letter into the 12 record here so that it would be the nature of 13 our response to that subpoena will be on the 14 record -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't we just 16 attach it to the record? I was actually 17 going to mark it a part of the record as an 18 exhibit. 19 MR. GREEN: I think we'd be better 20 off reading it. 21 MR. FLINT: I'd like to read it 22 into the record. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll get to do that 2 when you cross-examine. Right now this is my 3 examination so I take issue with that. 4 MR. FLINT: This is a preliminary 5 matter and it is significant in terms of the 6 procedure that we're following here, and it 7 only takes a couple minutes. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You can wait your 9 turn and do that. Now it's my turn and I 10 will conduct the examination. I will put the 11 letter on the record. I have no problem with 12 that, but please don't interrupt my 13 examination. 14 MR. FLINT: I'm not interrupting 15 your examination, Mr. Klayman, and you know 16 that very well. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: You are interrupting 18 my examination, and I will allow you to 19 cross-examine at the appropriate time. 20 MR. FLINT: This will not count 21 against your time, but it needs to be in the 22 record, and we believe it should be here at 1 the beginning of this proceeding. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm going to put 3 it on the record. I take issue with that and 4 this is my examination and I will proceed. 5 Ms. Pond, I'm going to ask you 6 whether you received a copy of this subpoena 7 duces tecum and mark it Exhibit No. 1. 8 (Pond Deposition Exhibit No. 1 9 was marked for identification.) 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you seen this subpoena before? 12 A Yes. 13 Q When did you receive it -- 14 MR. FLINT: Excuse me, Mr. Klayman. 15 The very first thing that you're asking 16 Ms. Pond about is the subpoena, which our 17 response is a direct response -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't 19 interrupt. 20 MR. FLINT: Please. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Is your name 22 Mr. Flynn? 1 MR. FLINT: Flint. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: You are being 3 unnecessarily -- 4 MR. FLINT: For the record now I 5 want it to be clear that we served a letter 6 on you this morning in which we stated that 7 this subpoena that you're about to question 8 her about was untimely and also defective in 9 several other respects. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: That's why I'm 11 putting your letter on the record. Please 12 don't interrupt. 13 MR. FLINT: We have nevertheless 14 provided you with some documents which we 15 have identified in accordance with that 16 letter, but I think that -- 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm putting your 18 letter on the record, and I'll let you do 19 cross-examination. 20 MR. FLINT: I will do cross- 21 examination if I believe that's necessary 22 without your permission. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine after I 2 finish my direct. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you receive this subpoena? 5 A My attorneys did. 6 Q And did you have an opportunity to 7 review the subpoena? 8 A Yes. 9 Q With your attorney? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did he read to you the requested 12 documents? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Have you produced documents today? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And I take it your attorney has a 17 letter with the documents that were produced? 18 A Yes. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 20 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 21 Exhibit 2. 22 MR. FITTON: Do you have an extra 1 copy of the letter? 2 (Pond Deposition Exhibit No. 2 3 was marked for identification.) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 5 video record at 10:08. 6 (Discussion off the record) 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 8 video record at 10:08 and 55 seconds. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Is this a copy of the cover letter 11 consisting of three pages plus the documents 12 that you're producing today that are being 13 provided by your counsel on your behalf? 14 A I really haven't read through this. 15 MR. FLINT: I will state on behalf 16 of Ms. Pond that that is the material that is 17 being submitted by her counsel on her behalf. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q I'll ask that that be made an 20 exhibit, too. Now, your counsel has raised 21 some objections to the document requests, but 22 notwithstanding those objections did you have 1 an opportunity to review the documents you 2 are providing today before they were produced 3 by your counsel? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q When did you review them? 6 A When I looked for the documents, to 7 see if I had any documents. I reviewed the 8 ones that I had and brought them to my 9 attorney's office. 10 Q Where were those documents located 11 when you reviewed them? 12 A At my house in a file folder. 13 Q And how is that file folder 14 labeled? 15 A It's not labeled. 16 Q So you had a copy of the subpoena 17 requesting documents -- 18 A Oh, no, not the subpoena. No. I'm 19 sorry. I thought you said the documents that 20 I produced today. 21 Q Well, how did you know what 22 documents to produce today? 1 A Because my counsel had read the 2 subpoena to me and asked me to look through 3 everything I had to see if any documents may 4 be responsive but at any rate to bring them 5 all in and I had very little. 6 Q So, not having the subpoena, what 7 did you understand the subpoena was 8 requesting in terms of documents? 9 A Well, actually, my counsel asked me 10 to bring in everything that I had with 11 respect to anything. 12 Q Every piece of paper in your house? 13 A No. No, no, everything that may be 14 related to my time at The White House. 15 Q And you brought that to your 16 counsel's office? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And what happened then? How did 19 you decide what documents to produce today? 20 A He decided what documents were 21 relevant. 22 Q What was the basis upon which you, 1 Betsy Pond, decided what documents were 2 relevant? 3 A I brought everything that I had in. 4 MR. FLINT: Objection. This is 5 getting into attorney-client discussions and 6 it's inappropriate. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm very careful not 8 to ask for these conversations with you. I 9 want her understanding as to what was the 10 method upon which you decided what was 11 relevant, you, Betsy Pond, not discussions 12 with your counsel. 13 THE WITNESS: My counsel asked me 14 to bring in anything in my possession 15 relating to my employment at The White House 16 or anything I may have pertaining to this 17 lawsuit, and I went through my documents and 18 pulled everything I had out and brought them 19 into my attorneys. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What ultimately did you decide not 22 to produce? 1 A I don't know. 2 MR. GREEN: Wait. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Now, when you left The White House, 5 I take it you took documents with you? 6 A No, I did not. 7 Q Well, you said that you brought in 8 all the documents pertaining to your work at 9 The White House? 10 A Newspaper articles that I 11 personally kept. 12 Q Did you take any documents with you 13 when you left The White House? 14 A I did not. 15 Q During the time you worked at The 16 White House, did you sometimes take documents 17 home? 18 A No, I did not. 19 Q Did you take computer disks home? 20 A No, I did not. 21 Q About how much in the way of 22 documentation to size did you bring into your 1 Counsel's Office if you can tell me? 2 A Maybe that big. 3 Q About an inch? 4 A About an inch. 5 Q Look at Exhibit 2. The first page, 6 not your counsel's letter, consists of a 7 letter to Lloyd Cutler from you, copy to 8 Cheryl Mills. It's undated. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Excuse me. It has June 28, 1994, 12 at the top. It consists of two pages. It's 13 marked BP 1 and BP 2. Is this one of the 14 letters that you're producing today? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Was this a copy of the original or 17 was this run off of a computer disk to create 18 this document, for production today? 19 A It was run off of a computer, not a 20 disk. 21 Q So you have documents on a computer 22 at home? 1 A No, I do not, and actually this may 2 have been prepared by my attorney. No, it 3 probably was prepared by me on a computer at 4 The White House. I did not have a computer 5 at home. 6 Q Did you have a hard copy at home? 7 A No. 8 Q Well, how did you get a copy of it? 9 A I had a copy of it all along. I 10 saved a copy myself. 11 Q Well, you prepared it on a computer 12 at The White House, correct? 13 A That's my recollection. 14 Q Now, you just testified that you 15 didn't take documents from The White House 16 when you were working there after you left. 17 How did you get a copies of this if you 18 didn't take documents? 19 A I consider this to be my personal 20 document. It's pertaining to me. 21 Q But my question was generally 22 whether you took documents home, not whether 1 they were personal or White House documents. 2 Do you want to change your answer? 3 A If you consider this to be a 4 document, yes, I did take it. 5 Q Were there other documents that you 6 wrote at The White House which you considered 7 to be personal which you took home or to any 8 other location when you were working there or 9 as you were leaving? 10 A No. 11 Q The second letter is dated June 22, 12 1994, to Betsy Pond from Alphonse D'Amato and 13 Donald Riegel on the Committee on Banking, 14 Housing, and Urban Affairs. This is the 15 document which you're producing today, 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And this document was sent to you 19 at The White House, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So, therefore, you also took this 22 document from The White House home, correct? 1 A Yes. 2 Q So your last response wasn't 3 accurate, either. That's not the only 4 document you took? 5 A Mr. Klayman, I considered this to 6 be part of a package. This is my response 7 and this is the incoming that is addressed to 8 me. 9 MR. FLINT: Mr. Klayman, if I can 10 interrupt. It is an enclosure to the 11 previous letter. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q It is a separate document, is it 14 not? Is this a separate document, Ms. Pond? 15 A My cover letter says, "I enclose a 16 copy of the letter that I received from the 17 chairman of the Senate Banking Committee," so 18 it's a copy of the letter that I received. 19 Q Turning to the next letter, June 20 27, 1994, letter from Henry B. Gonzales of 21 the U.S. House of Representatives to Betsy 22 Pond. This was also sent to you at The White 1 House, correct? 2 A Actually, I believe that these were 3 sent to my attorney, addressed to me at The 4 White House, but I don't remember that. 5 Q Look at the top of the page. 6 A I see that. 7 Q Where it says deputy chief of 8 staff, 8/27/94, this reflects that it was 9 faxed to The White House, correct? 10 A That could -- yes. 11 Q So it wasn't sent to your attorney, 12 correct? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q So this was another document that 15 you removed from The White House, correct? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection. 19 MR. MAZUR: This says enclosure, 20 also. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't give her 22 testimony. That's not appropriate. 1 Mr. Mazur made a statement, "It's an 2 enclosure, also." I plainly heard that. Let 3 me conduct my examination. 4 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 5 relevance. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q So you removed this document from 8 The White House, too, correct? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I have it, yes. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The next document is a Washington 13 Times article, "Linda Tripp on Filegate"? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And the date is cut off on my copy. 16 Do you know what date this is? 17 A It says 12/23/98. 18 Q And the next document is another 19 newspaper material that says, "Depositions, 20 interviews hint at Foster's worries. Ethics 21 may have troubled White House lawyer, two 22 pages from the January 30, 1995, Washington 1 Post. 2 Was this document also a document 3 that you kept at The White House and took 4 with you? 5 A No, it was a document that I had at 6 home. I cut out of the newspaper or I had -- 7 I kept the -- I kept the article. 8 Q The next document that you're 9 producing spans a BP number -- I take it that 10 means Betsy Pond, correct? Those little BP 11 numbers at the bottom. Do you know how they 12 got there? Did your lawyer put that there? 13 MR. FLINT: Yes. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q 9 through 16, it appears to be a 16 polygraph report. That's what it says on the 17 top. "Date of examination May 31, 1995. 18 Office of Independent Counsel." Is this a 19 complete copy of the polygraph report? 20 A As far as I know, it is. 21 Q And this report was prepared when 22 you were working at The White House? 1 A Yes. 2 Q And it was provided to The White 3 House? 4 A No. 5 Q How did you get a copy of it? 6 A My attorney. 7 Q Is this something you took to your 8 attorney? 9 A No, my attorney obtained the copy. 10 Q This wasn't something you took from 11 your house to your attorney in responding to 12 our subpoena? 13 A No. 14 Q Is this the only time you had a 15 polygraph exam administered to you? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Ms. Pond, when were you born? 18 A August 15, 1944. 19 Q And where were you born? 20 A Alexandria, Virginia. 21 Q And where did you attend high 22 school? 1 A James Madison High School in 2 Vienna, Virginia. 3 Q And when did you graduate? 4 A 1962. 5 Q And what, if anything, did you do 6 at that time? 7 A I attended a year at the Washington 8 School for Secretaries. 9 Q And when did you graduate? 10 A 1963, September 1963. 11 Q And what, if anything, happened at 12 that time professionally? Did you get a job? 13 A Yes, I did. 14 Q Where did you get a job? 15 A I got a job for a law firm then 16 named Williams & Stein. 17 Q And where were they located? 18 A 839 17th Street N.W. 19 Q What kind of a job did you get, a 20 legal secretary job? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And is that the firm which later 1 became Williams & Connolly? 2 A It is. 3 Q And who did you work for at that 4 firm? 5 A Peter Taft, Judy Hope, and David 6 Povich. 7 Q Povich? 8 A Povich. 9 Q Did you work with any other 10 lawyers, even part-time? 11 A Yes, on cases I worked with other 12 lawyers. 13 Q Who are the other lawyers that you 14 can remember that you worked with? 15 A Tom Wadden. 16 Q Tom? 17 A Wadden, Tom Dyson, Vince Fuller. 18 That's all that comes to mind right now. 19 Q Do you know where these lawyers are 20 today? 21 A Most of them -- yes, I do. 22 Q Where is Mr. Taft? 1 A Mr. Taft is with a firm in Los 2 Angeles. The name is something like Munger, 3 Tolles & RÄÄÄÄr. I'm not sure of the correct 4 name. 5 Q You've kept in contact with him, I 6 take it? 7 A Yes, I have. 8 Q And the second person, Judy Hope? 9 A She's with the law firm of Paul 10 Hastings. 11 Q In Washington, D.C.? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q David Povich? 14 A He's with Williams & Connolly. 15 Q Tom Wadden? 16 A He's deceased. 17 Q Tom Dyson? 18 A He's retired. 19 Q Does he live in the Washington 20 area? 21 A I'm not sure. I'm not sure where. 22 Q Where was the last place he lived? 1 A In Virginia. 2 Q And Vince Fuller? 3 A Williams & Connolly, as far as I 4 know. 5 Q When did you work for Williams & 6 Connolly, what years? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Well, when I say Williams & 10 Connolly I'm talking about Williams & Stein 11 as well, but I'll just call it Williams & 12 Connolly. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can answer. 16 A From September 1963 through May 17 1968, approximately. 18 Q Why did you leave Williams & 19 Connolly? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 21 of the question. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q These aren't trick questions. He's 2 just being dramatic. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to your 4 characterization of that and for your posing 5 a question without any foundation to it. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's hardly one of my 7 better questions in terms of originality, 8 Mr. Gaffney. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Why did you leave Williams & 11 Connolly? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I moved to San 14 Francisco. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you get married? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you ever been married? 19 A No. 20 Q And when you worked for Williams & 21 Connolly what kind of job evaluations did you 22 get? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm going to object 2 to the form of the question and, Mr. Klayman, 3 I think I'm entitled to do that. Williams & 4 Connolly was not formed until the 1970s so on 5 that basis I continue to object to any 6 reference to Williams & Connolly. If you 7 want to ask your questions, go ahead. I'm 8 entitled to make that objection. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to your 10 putting evidence on the record. I was just 11 using it for purposes of identification. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't you ask her 13 what law firm she worked for? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I did and I asked her 15 if it became Williams & Connolly, so I laid 16 the foundation. 17 MR. FLINT: I also object to the 18 relevancy of this. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just getting 20 background. To background there's a high 21 degree of touchiness here which I don't 22 understand. 1 MR. GAFFNEY: If you want to refer 2 to it as the predecessor firm to Williams & 3 Connolly, that's fine. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you know when Williams & Stein 6 became Williams & Connolly? 7 A No, I don't. I don't have a 8 recollection. 9 Q But it occurred during the period 10 that you worked there? 11 A I really don't remember. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Can you turn to Exhibit 2, which I 15 just identified, at Bates number 13? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you see question number 21? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Who is JKM? Do you remember? 20 A Just one second. Oh, JKM? He must 21 have been the FBI person who administered the 22 polygraph test. 1 Q And the question says, "In between 2 the time you arrived and when NÄÄÄÄ arrived, 3 did you have a telephone conversation with 4 anyone," and you responded, "Yes, I called 5 Bernie. I called two of my girlfriends, 6 Kathy Duvall and Gale Massot, to console me. 7 I can't remember which I called first. Kathy 8 Duvall is retired. She used to work at 9 Steptoe & Johnson. We worked together at 10 Williams & Connolly 30 years ago. She lives 11 in Annapolis. Her telephone number is 12 410-721-4936." 13 That refreshes your recollection, 14 does it not, that the firm was named Williams 15 & Connolly for at least part of the time that 16 you were there? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: It really doesn't. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q But you understand to have worked 22 for Williams & Connolly, correct? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I really don't know. 3 I don't recall when it became Williams & 4 Connolly, but I refer to it as Williams & 5 Connolly because that's what it is called 6 now. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You wouldn't say anything to this 9 FBI polygraph operator that was false, would 10 you? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MR. FLINT: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll refer to it as 15 Williams & Connolly because that's how she 16 refers to it. If you want to produce your 17 corporate records, that's fine, Mr. Gaffney. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Now, over the years have you kept 20 in contact with people from Williams & 21 Connolly? 22 A Yes. 1 Q When was the last time you talked 2 with anybody from Williams & Connolly? 3 A You mean that worked there at the 4 time and has subsequently left, or do you 5 mean -- 6 Q At all. 7 A Well, I keep in touch regularly 8 with several people who work at Williams & 9 Connolly or Williams & Stein. 10 Q And who are they? 11 A Peter Taft, Judy Hope, my friend 12 Kathy Duvall. 13 Q Was she a secretary, too? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And she still is at Williams & 16 Connolly? 17 A No, she's not, she's retired. 18 Q Who else? 19 A I've talked to David Povich. 20 Q Anybody else? 21 A No, I don't think so. 22 Q When was the last time you talked 1 with anybody from Williams & Connolly? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I talk to them quite 4 often, all of them except Mr. Povich; I don't 5 talk to him very often. But I talk to Judy, 6 Peter, and Kathy quite frequently. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q About how frequently? 9 A Kathy I probably talk to every 10 other day. Judy, I talk to maybe once a week 11 or once every other week, and Peter I talk to 12 maybe every three months or so. 13 Q And I take it you've talked to 14 these people about Linda Tripp in the last 15 few years? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I haven't. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Not at all? 20 A Oh, I have talked to my friend 21 Kathy about it. 22 Q If we subpoena these people to 1 testify in this case, they'll tell me under 2 oath that you have not talked to them about 3 Linda Tripp in the last two years? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that if 6 you subpoenaed Judy Hope you would find that 7 we were not able to talk about Linda because 8 I referred Linda to Ms. Hope for 9 representation, and my friend Kathy, I talked 10 to her about it, and my friend Peter, I may 11 have talked to him about it. But I just 12 don't recall what -- with what specificity 13 that I would have talked to them about it. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q What did you specifically talk to 16 them about Linda Tripp? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I guess what was 20 going on, the current events. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Such as? What current events are 1 we talking about? 2 A I believe it would have probably 3 been when the story broke on Monica Lewinsky 4 and Linda surfaced. 5 Q And what did you tell them about 6 Linda? 7 A I told them about the incidents 8 that I had with Linda. 9 Q And what did you tell them 10 specifically about those incidents? 11 A I just recalled some incidents that 12 had happened. I don't recall what specific 13 stories I relayed. 14 Q Well, tell us those incidents. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. FLINT: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sure that I said 18 that Linda was a very untrustworthy person, 19 that she wrecked havoc among the staff at The 20 White House. I also recalled a couple -- I'm 21 sure I recalled a couple of incidents, 22 personal incidents, that happened between 1 Linda and I. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And what personal incidents 4 happened between Linda and you that you told 5 them about? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 MR. GREEN: Can you tell us what 8 you mean by that? 9 MR. FLINT: Which conversation and 10 them? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: The people at 12 Williams & Connolly? 13 MR. GREEN: Can you specify which 14 of those people? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I will. First I want 16 to get the incidents. 17 THE WITNESS: Oh, I didn't tell 18 anybody at Williams & Connolly the incidents, 19 no one. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You just said you did. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 1 MR. FLINT: That's not a question. 2 THE WITNESS: My friend Kathy I 3 said that I told, and I'm sure that I told 4 other things generally but I wouldn't have 5 gone into the specific incidents. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Well, you told them generally the 8 incidents, correct? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MR. FLINT: Is it a question, 11 Mr. Klayman? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, it's a question 13 if you listen to it, Mr. Flint. 14 MR. FLINT: Repeat your question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You told them generally the 17 incidents? 18 MR. FLINT: Objection again as to 19 whom you're talking about. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll get a chance 21 to cross-examine. Let me ask my questions. 22 I'm going to get to that. Please don't 1 interrupt. 2 MR. FLINT: I apologize for 3 interrupting but it seems to me clarity may 4 be somewhat necessary. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Just don't interrupt. 6 You don't have to apologize. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Was there 8 a question? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Generally what incidents did you 11 talk about? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: With whom? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q With any of the people you've just 17 mentioned. I just want to identify generally 18 what incidents you mentioned, and then I'm 19 going to ask you who you specifically 20 mentioned the general incidents to. 21 A I think that I would have probably 22 told my friend Kathy a lot of the incidents 1 that happened. I do not recall telling 2 anybody else any specific incidents, just 3 that it was a nightmare. 4 Q What general incidents did you 5 recount to at least Kathy? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I recalled many 8 incidents that I can recall specifically, but 9 one that really hurt me a great deal was one 10 Saturday Linda was working, and our volunteer 11 was working, and my volunteer called me at 12 home and said, "I want to prepare you. You 13 know, Mrs. Nussbuam was coming into the 14 office today"? And I said, yeah. And she 15 said, "Linda took all your personal 16 belongings and threw them all over the floor 17 and told Mrs. Nussbuam that that was the kind 18 of conditions they had to work under." 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What volunteer said that Linda 21 threw all of your personal belongings on the 22 floor? 1 A Her name is Marlene McDonald. 2 Q And where is she today? 3 A She works for the Department of 4 Commerce. 5 Q Do you know what part of the 6 Department of Commerce? 7 A Public affairs. I believe she's 8 only been there a short while. 9 Q Did she say why Linda Tripp had 10 thrown your personal belongings on the floor? 11 A No, I don't believe Linda -- she 12 didn't say that Linda gave her any reason, 13 but I think the implication was clear. 14 Q And what was that? 15 A Well, she was trying to make me 16 look bad to Mrs. Nussbuam. 17 Q Why do you think Linda Tripp would 18 try to make you look bad? 19 A She tried to systematically make 20 everybody in the office look bad to enhance 21 her own role and to gain control. 22 Q When did this incident take place, 1 generally? 2 A January of 1994, I believe. 3 Q Did anyone else observe this 4 incident other than Ms. McDonald? 5 A Observe what part of it? The mess 6 that was left? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Well, it was still there when I 9 came in on Monday morning, and I don't recall 10 who saw it before I cleaned it up, but I 11 cleaned it up in a hurry because our office 12 was visible as soon as you walked off of the 13 elevator. Your sight was right into our 14 office, and there were piles of things all 15 over the floor. 16 Q So maybe I didn't understand, but 17 you're saying more than one person saw the 18 mess? 19 A I said I didn't know who had seen 20 the mess before I cleaned it up. Mrs. 21 Nussbuam saw it, Mr. Nussbaum saw it, Marlene 22 saw it, and I can't remember which staff may 1 have come in Monday morning before I cleaned 2 it up. 3 Q But you weren't there when 4 Ms. Tripp allegedly took all your personal 5 belongings and threw them on the floor? 6 A No, I wasn't. 7 Q And you don't know yourself whether 8 it was Ms. Tripp that did that? 9 A Yes, I do because she told me on 10 Monday. 11 Q And what did she tell you on 12 Monday? 13 A That she had taken my belongings 14 out because she needed the file to -- she 15 needed the file space. 16 Q She told you she threw all your 17 personal belongings on the floor? 18 A Mm-hmm. 19 Q Was she happy about that? Did that 20 appear to you to be something that pleased 21 her? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What was her reaction? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What was her demeanor? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Her demeanor was such 10 that she had pulled off something 11 spectacular. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What do you mean by "something 14 spectacular"? 15 A I really don't know how to 16 characterize it beyond that. I think that 17 she was very proud of herself because she had 18 made me look bad. 19 Q You believe that Linda Tripp 20 doesn't like you, correct? 21 A I do. 22 Q In fact, you believe that Linda 1 Tripp hates you, correct? 2 A Hate's a pretty strong word, but 3 she doesn't regard me as a friend. 4 Q Well, what is your belief? You 5 believe that she hates you? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 7 answered. 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'd say that. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q And you don't like Ms. Tripp very 11 much, do you? 12 A No, I don't. 13 Q In fact, you hate her too, right? 14 A No, I wouldn't say that I hate her. 15 Q It's close to hate? 16 A I don't like her. I don't like 17 things that she's done, but I really feel sad 18 rather than hatred. I feel sad. 19 Q Why do you feel sad? 20 A I feel sad that so much anger is 21 put into hurting other people. 22 Q What did you find on the floor when 1 you came in Monday morning? 2 A My -- I had shoes in the back 3 drawer, I had personal toiletries, panty 4 hose, personal papers, things of that nature. 5 Q And all these things were being 6 kept in a file cabinet? 7 A A file drawer, the bottom file 8 drawer. 9 Q Whose file drawer was it? 10 A What do you mean, whose was it? It 11 belonged to the government. 12 Q Well, who was it assigned to? 13 A People in the Counsel's Office. It 14 was assigned to Mr. Nussbaum. 15 Q And what kinds of files were kept 16 in it? 17 A Chronological files of 18 correspondence and alphabetical files of 19 correspondence and maybe a few issues, 20 recurrent issues. I can't recall with any 21 degree of certainty what those issues would 22 have been. 1 Q Why did you put your panty hose in 2 those files? 3 A They weren't in the files. I was 4 using the bottom drawer as my personal drawer 5 for my personal belongings. 6 Q Had you received permission to do 7 that? 8 A I didn't feel I needed permission. 9 It was an empty drawer. 10 Q Were the other effects kept in that 11 drawer, or were they in other drawers as 12 well? 13 A No, they were all in that drawer. 14 Q Now, you say there was more about 15 that incident. What else was about that 16 incident? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: Did I say there was 19 more about that incident? 20 MR. FLINT: Objection. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Didn't you say you talked to Kathy 1 about other things as well concerning Linda 2 Tripp? 3 A Oh, you mean different incidents 4 than that? 5 Q Yes. 6 A You know, I know I did but I don't 7 recall any specific incidents that I may have 8 relayed other than probably my feelings for 9 her and, you know, what my feelings were 10 based upon, but I cannot recall any specific 11 incidents. 12 Q You did relay incidents concerning 13 Vince Foster, didn't you, to Kathy and other 14 people in the last few years? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You did talk about all the events 19 concerning the death of Vince Foster with 20 other people in the last few years, correct? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: You mean besides the 1 testimony I was called to give? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we please stop 3 talking here? We have a lot of lawyers in 4 this room. It would be nice if we could be 5 respectful of each other. Please don't talk 6 during my questioning. These are not trick 7 questions. They're very simple questions. I 8 don't understand this. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I 10 didn't say a word of objection. Consulting 11 with Mr. Gaffney about something else. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: The form of your 13 question is objectionable. I'm trying to 14 minimize the number of objections. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: You're entitled to 16 make an objection, Mr. Gaffney. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm aware of that. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Just say objection to 19 form. Please don't talk in the middle of it. 20 I can't concentrate. 21 THE WITNESS: There was a question 22 pending? I'm sorry. I don't know what -- I 1 can't remember what it was. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you talk to some of the people 4 that you have identified this morning who 5 worked for Williams & Connolly or still work 6 for Williams & Connolly about the death of 7 Vince Foster? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: No. My friend Kathy 10 I talked to about the death of Vince Foster 11 and probably Judy Hope peripherally but not 12 in any detail. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp's 15 involvement, if any, in the death of Vince 16 Foster in terms of the events that occurred 17 after that with these people? 18 A In terms of what events that 19 followed Vince Foster's death? 20 Q For example, your different 21 accounts of what happened following Vince 22 Foster's death? 1 A My different accounts or Linda's 2 different accounts? 3 Q Either. 4 A Actually, I didn't really know that 5 Linda's account differed from mine at the 6 time. 7 Q Well, have you talked about it with 8 anybody at Williams & Connolly? 9 A No, I talked to my friend Kathy, 10 who's not been at Williams & Connolly since 11 1968. 12 Q And my question was either people 13 that are still there or who have left? 14 A No, people that are still there. 15 Q So you did talk to your friend 16 Kathy about matters involving the death of 17 Vince Foster? 18 A I sure did. 19 Q And what did you tell her? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 21 relevancy. 22 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 1 This is very far afield. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not very far 3 afield. That's fine. Make your objection. 4 Let's move on. All you have to do is say 5 relevancy, Mr. Flint. You don't have to make 6 sarcastic comments. 7 MR. FLINT: You're the one who 8 makes all the lectures. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm getting quadruple 10 teamed here and I can't conduct simple 11 questioning with very simple questions which 12 on their face are quite benign. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Could you read back 14 the question, please? 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 MR. GREEN: We'd like to take a 18 recess. Videographer, can we go off, please? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 20 video record at 10:48. 21 (Recess) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 1 video record at 10:58. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the 3 last question? 4 (The reporter read the record as 5 requested.) 6 MR. FLINT: Objection, and I do 7 want to express the nature of this objection. 8 It seems to me that Vince Foster's death is a 9 matter that's far afield from anything 10 involved in this litigation. There is a 11 narrow area about activities thereafter -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we do this 13 without Ms. Pond in the room? Can we talk 14 about this without Ms. Pond in the room? 15 It's a speaking objection. I don't want her 16 to hear your theory of this unless she 17 already has. Has she already heard this? 18 From you, I mean, during the break -- 19 MR. FLINT: I'm not going to talk 20 about my conversations with Ms. Pond during 21 the break, Mr. Klayman. It seems to me that 22 there's a limited area of any potential 1 relevance and that has to do with matters 2 after the death and matters going into the 3 Vince Foster death are entirely irrelevant 4 and outside the scope of this litigation. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not interested in 6 whether it was a suicide or otherwise. I'm 7 not interested in those issues. I'm 8 interested in a free flow discussion and 9 response so she can tell me what was 10 discussed because if you don't limit her in 11 the question, if you just ask a general 12 question, she might be more forthcoming with 13 information that indeed is relevant. 14 And you recognize that it's 15 relevant because in fact on her behalf you 16 produced information concerning Vince Foster 17 and documents that were removed from Vince 18 Foster's office and documents that were 19 created. So I asked the question just in a 20 general way. 21 I don't want a long discourse, and 22 I don't want to get into the issue of whether 1 it's a suicide or otherwise. I just want to 2 see what she'll tell me that she was 3 discussing. Because it looks to me, from the 4 documents that you've produced, that she was 5 concerned about going into Vince Foster's 6 office about the issue of looking at 7 documents, rearranging the desk, removing 8 documents. I just want to get a free flow 9 response. This is not intended in any way to 10 intrude on irrelevant areas. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: I object as a 12 complete mischaracterization of the document 13 that you're summarizing and I join the 14 relevance objections. Absolutely out of 15 bounds. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: It seems to me -- 17 MR. FLINT: And I will tell you 18 that the document that was responded to, the 19 polygraph test, was responded to because it 20 was responsive to the subpoena request that 21 dealt with documents coming out of Vince 22 Foster's office and for that narrow purpose 1 alone. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct, and I'd like 3 to get an unfettered response and what is 4 delaying this, and I submit for the record 5 this deposition did begin an hour late 6 because government counsel and Mr. Gaffney 7 apparently didn't check the subpoena where it 8 said 9:00 a.m. We waited for you as a matter 9 of courtesy. We're trying to be courteous. 10 But I'm getting triple and sometimes 11 quadruple teamed on questions. My questions 12 are very simple. They're not trick questions 13 and I feel like you're trying to harass me 14 here. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I object. 16 MR. FLINT: I object to that 17 entirely, Mr. Klayman. It seems to me your 18 questions are of such a vague nature that 19 they don't show any attempt to make them 20 relevant to the proceeding that we're 21 involved in. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm trying to make my 1 questions simple. I'm trying to make them 2 common sense-like. I'm trying not to talk 3 like a lawyer so she can understand me. 4 She's obviously not a lawyer. So I'm trying 5 to be agreeable here and it's no intention on 6 our part to make this difficult. I just want 7 to move along. I'm just trying to get some 8 background information, and if I'm limited in 9 my question and just ask a pinpoint question 10 I'll get no and nothing else. I want to see 11 what she'll offer. 12 This is a reasonable latitude, but 13 I'm not going to pursue issues as to who 14 killed Vince Foster or whether he committed 15 suicide. I have no interest in that. 16 Can we read back the question 17 again? And just for the record, it's our 18 position that this whole scenario does not 19 count against our time. 20 MR. FLINT: I'm not sure that I 21 agree with that, Mr. Klayman. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't think you 1 would, Mr. Flint, but that's our position. 2 (The reporter read the record as 3 requested.) 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Will you note my 5 relevancy objection and objection to form? 6 THE WITNESS: I probably related 7 what a sad incident it was, what a tragedy, 8 and I'm not sure of any specifics that I 9 would have gone into, just how very upsetting 10 it was that someone was in so much pain and 11 you couldn't help them. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What pain was he in? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 15 Relevancy. 16 MR. FLINT: I object and the 17 relevancy of that is certainly not obvious. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Mr. Foster worked in The White 20 House Counsel's Office, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And as part of his duties and 1 responsibilities, he played a role in 2 reviewing new appointees as well as holdover 3 employees, correct? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 6 Mr. Foster's duties were. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that he consulted 9 with Mr. William Kennedy from time to time 10 about security background checks of holdover 11 employees and political appointees? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Well, I'm going to ask you the 16 question. What did you observe to be his 17 distress or pain, as you put it? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 19 relevancy. 20 MR. FLINT: Objection. I don't see 21 that the predicate questions had anything to 22 do with that question, and that clearly is 1 not relevant. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A Actually, it was the act of suicide 5 reveals that he was obviously in a lot of 6 pain rather than anything that I noticed. It 7 was the aftermath of his death that I thought 8 he must have been in so much pain to have 9 done -- to have killed himself, and that's 10 what was so sad. 11 Q Did you relay to Kathy that 12 Mr. Foster was troubled by what he had seen 13 taking place in The White House Counsel's 14 Office? 15 A No. 16 Q Did he ever express to you that he 17 was troubled at some of the things that were 18 going on there? 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You don't have to 21 object to relevancy. That's a substantive 22 objection, Mr. Flint. You can preserve that 1 for trial. Federal rules say you have to 2 object now as to form. I ask as a matter of 3 professional courtesy not to interrupt, 4 particularly since it has a tendency to try 5 to tell the witness something. Please 6 respond. 7 THE WITNESS: No, he did not 8 confide in me that there were any problems in 9 The White House Counsel's Office. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know what he worked on at 12 The White House Counsel's Office? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q When you had this discussion with 15 Kathy, did you discuss any aspect of your 16 being in Mr. Foster's office immediately 17 before and after he died? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you discuss with Kathy being in 1 Foster's office in and around the time of his 2 death? 3 A I don't recall. That was not what 4 I was upset about. I think that I probably 5 would have talked about how sad Mr. Foster's 6 death was rather than anything relating to my 7 going into his office. 8 Q Have you had any discussions about 9 any other incidents involving Linda Tripp 10 with the people that you identified this 11 morning? You said there were many incidents. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: You mean did I 14 recount any specific details or did I just 15 have general conversations with -- 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I'm just trying to get the truth, 18 Ms. Pond. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 20 insinuation. 21 MR. FLINT: Objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q It's no insinuation. I'm trying to 2 be helpful and to get Ms. Pond to understand 3 that I'm not trying to trick you in anything. 4 If you don't understand a question, just let 5 me know. I'm trying to make them as simple 6 as possible. But just tell me what you 7 discussed about Linda Tripp with these people 8 in the last two or three years, just what 9 incidents. You said there were incidents? 10 A Well, actually, when you say these 11 people, I am narrowing that to include my 12 friend Kathy, because I don't recall any 13 conversations I had with the other three 14 people that I mentioned, so I would limit it 15 to my friend Kathy, and she's been my closest 16 friend for many years, and I just don't 17 recall all of the incidents that I would have 18 laid out. 19 Q Well, for instance, you stated 20 earlier that you referred Linda Tripp to Judy 21 Hope for a lawyer. When did you make that 22 referral? 1 A I believe it was in probably March 2 of '94, March or April. 3 Q What events led to your making a 4 referral of Linda Tripp to Judy Hope? 5 A I believe that there was a memo 6 that went out, and if my memory serves me it 7 was from Joel Kline and it announced that 8 these subpoenas -- the subpoenas would be 9 forthcoming, and I think it said that you 10 should obtain counsel if you felt you needed 11 it or you wanted to be guided by counsel. 12 I cannot recall the specific 13 language, and I remember that we were 14 standing around and Judy -- Linda said she 15 didn't know any counsel -- she didn't know 16 any lawyers, and I said maybe my friend Judy 17 could represent you, knowing that Judy is a 18 Republican, Linda's a Republican, they would 19 feel comfortable with each other. 20 And I called Judy and asked her if 21 she would be willing to talk to Ms. Tripp and 22 she said yes, and I have not had a 1 conversation about Ms. Tripp with Ms. Hope 2 since that time. 3 Q Have you ever used Ms. Hope as a 4 lawyer? 5 A I have worked for Ms. Hope many 6 times. 7 Q Well, did you ever retain her 8 yourself to do anything on your behalf? 9 A No, I don't think so. 10 Q Have you ever asked her to do 11 anything on your behalf? 12 A I asked her to refer me to a lawyer 13 in this proceeding. 14 Q And when did you make that request? 15 A When I found out that -- in 16 December, when this Filegate stuff started 17 coming out. 18 Q You asked Ms. Hope to refer you to 19 a lawyer after you learned that Linda Tripp 20 had testified in this case? 21 A Yes, that she had named me. 22 Q How did you find out she had 1 testified in this case? 2 A I was called by the government 3 lawyers. 4 Q Who called you? 5 A I think it was Betsy. 6 Q Betsy Shapiro? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What did Ms. Shapiro say to you 9 when she called you? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. I 11 instruct the witness not to answer that 12 question as to the substance of our 13 conversation. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: She just did. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I did instruct her? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: No. She just said 17 that you had contacted her and told her about 18 it. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, that's fine. 20 She can say she contacted me and she spoke to 21 me, but she can't testify as to the substance 22 of the conversation. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did anyone else contact you from 3 the government? 4 A No. 5 Q Did Ms. Shapiro identify herself as 6 a lawyer when she called you? 7 A Yes. 8 Q So after Ms. Shapiro talked to you 9 you then contacted Judy Hope? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you ask Ms. Hope to represent 12 you? 13 A No, I didn't. I thought it -- that 14 she wouldn't be able to because of her prior 15 representation of Ms. Tripp, so I didn't ask 16 her, and she didn't volunteer. 17 Q When you referred Linda Tripp to 18 Judy Hope, you said you need to find an 19 administration-friendly lawyer? 20 A No, I did not. 21 Q You did tell Ms. Tripp that, 22 though, generally, didn't you? 1 A No, I did not. 2 Q You are aware that Williams & 3 Connolly represents Mr. and Mrs. Clinton, 4 correct? 5 A Yes, I am. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And you're you were aware of that 9 at the time that you referred Ms. Tripp to 10 Williams & Connolly, correct? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 12 of the question. 13 MR. FLINT: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: I didn't. I didn't 15 refer her to Williams & Connolly. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Ms. Hope works for Williams & 18 Connolly, correct? 19 A No, she does not. 20 Q Who does she work for? 21 A She works for Paul Hastings. She 22 worked for Williams & Connolly and she left 1 in 1968, I believe. 2 Q And Ms. Hope then referred you to 3 your current counsel? 4 A Yes, she did. 5 Q Who, if anyone, is paying the legal 6 fees for your current counsel? Please 7 respond. 8 A I imagine that they will be covered 9 by the government in part. 10 Q How do you know that? 11 A Because when the original subpoenas 12 came out in the Vince Foster matter there was 13 a cover memo that came out that said if you 14 were asked to testify in a proceeding that 15 resulted from your work for the Federal 16 Government that you would be entitled to seek 17 representation from the government. 18 Q Well, is Ms. Shapiro representing 19 you today, Ms. Pond? 20 A Yes, I guess. 21 Q Did she ever tell you that she's 22 representing you? 1 A She's representing the government. 2 Q Has anyone ever told you that 3 Ms. Shapiro is representing you here today? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q Who told you that? 6 A I don't know. Ms. Shapiro. 7 Q You're not sure? 8 A Well, I have my counsel and then 9 Ms. Shapiro is counsel for the government, 10 which is representing me as -- in my capacity 11 as a government employee. 12 Q So you've got a commitment from the 13 government to pay for your private counsel in 14 addition to using Ms. Shapiro of the Justice 15 Department? 16 A No. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 20 THE WITNESS: I have no commitment 21 from anyone. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q So as far as you're concerned you 2 don't know who's going to pay the legal fees? 3 A I would hope that my legal fees 4 would be honored under the code that allows 5 attorneys to be reimbursed. 6 Q Do you know whether your attorneys 7 have asked for any commitment from the 8 government to pay their legal fees? 9 MR. GREEN: Object to the 10 relevance. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection, relevancy. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you yourself question why you 15 have private counsel never having a 16 commitment that anyone would pay for them? 17 Have you questioned that? 18 A No. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Sidley & Austin is an 22 administration-friendly law firm, is it not? 1 MR. FLINT: Objection. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. FLINT: Form. 4 THE WITNESS: I would not know. 5 The person who referred me to Sidley & Austin 6 was Judy Hope, who is a Republican, and I do 7 not know -- she did not say that Sid Sidley & 8 Austin was an administration-free law firm. 9 I have no idea. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Administration friendly. 12 A I don't know that. 13 Q Do you know Steven Waudby? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q Did you refer Steven Waudby to 16 Sidley & Austin? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q Do you know whose paying for Steven 19 Waudby's legal fee? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q Did he ever tell you? 22 A No, I have not talked to 1 Mr. Waudby. 2 Q Do you know Terry Good? 3 A I know who he is. 4 Q Do you know who's representing 5 Terry Good in this case you're here today on? 6 A I've been told that Sidley & Austin 7 is. 8 Q Where did you hear that? 9 A From my attorneys. 10 Q Do you know who's paying for 11 Mr. Good's legal fees? 12 A I do not. 13 Q Have you had any contact with 14 anyone at Williams & Connolly or the 15 predecessor law firm in the last three years 16 where you have discussed issues concerning 17 what has become known as the Filegate 18 controversy? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever discussed Linda Tripp 21 with Mr. Povich in the last three years? 22 A I don't believe so. 1 Q But you're not sure? 2 A No. I would say no, that I 3 haven't. 4 Q If I was to subpoena Mr. Povich, 5 would he confirm that? 6 A Probably. 7 Q Have you discussed issues involving 8 Craig Livingstone or William Kennedy with 9 anyone at Williams & Connolly in the last 10 three years? 11 A No. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 It's Craig Livingstone, for the record. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Have you ever discussed with anyone 16 at Williams & Connolly anything with regard 17 to the obtaining of FBI files by The White 18 House? 19 A No. 20 Q Who are your closest friends 21 currently? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection, relevancy. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A Kathy Duvall, Gale Massot, Judy 5 Hope. 6 Q And forgive me if I've asked this 7 before. Just to be sure, Kathy Duvall lives 8 where? 9 A Annapolis. 10 Q And do you know where she works 11 right now? 12 A She's retired. 13 Q We know where Judy Hope is, and the 14 third person? 15 A Gail Massot is the language 16 director at Georgetown Day School. 17 Q And she lives in this area? 18 A In Arlington. 19 Q Are there other people that you 20 consider to be your good friends? 21 A I have several good friends, but 22 those are my longest, oldest friends. 1 Q And who are your longest, oldest, 2 friends? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I just named them. 5 Q Who are your other good friends 6 that aren't your longest, oldest friends? 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A I have a friend -- two friends in 11 California who have been my friends for 20 12 years. 13 Q And who are they? 14 A Robyn Perusse. 15 Q And where does she live? 16 A Sonoma. 17 Q And where does she work? 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 19 THE WITNESS: I think the name of 20 the firm is Thomas Anderson & Company. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q In what? 1 A Thomas Anderson & Company in 2 Sonoma. 3 Q And who else? 4 A Mary Thayer lives in California. 5 Q Where does she live? 6 A Walnut Creek. 7 Q And where's Walnut Creek? 8 A California. 9 Q And who does she work for? 10 A Kaiser. 11 Q Kaiser? 12 A Mm-hmm. 13 Q Kaiser Permanente? 14 A I don't know. Kaiser. 15 Q Anyone else? 16 A Those would be my closest friends. 17 Q And these are people that you stay 18 in contact with on a fairly regular basis? 19 A Yes. 20 Q These are people that you share 21 aspects of your life with? 22 A Yes. 1 Q Is there anybody else who you would 2 share aspects of your life with routinely? 3 A No. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 5 relevancy. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you ever kept a diary? 8 A No. 9 Q Have you ever written down your 10 thoughts? 11 A No. 12 Q Have you ever put on a Dictaphone 13 or a tape recorder what was going on in your 14 life? 15 A No. 16 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for purposes of 18 the record, Mr. Flint, tell me what is 19 irrelevant about that. I just want to get an 20 understanding so the court can understand 21 your modus operandi here. 22 MR. FLINT: Nothing to do with 1 anything involved in this litigation, 2 Mr. Klayman, and you know that. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying 4 whether she records things going on in her 5 life is not relevant? Is that what you're 6 saying? 7 Thank you for the clarification. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q When you moved from Williams & 10 Connolly to California who did you go for 11 work for? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I worked for the 14 California Rural Legal Assistance Program. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q And where was that? 17 A San Francisco. 18 Q And what position did you take 19 there? 20 A I worked for the director of the 21 organization. 22 Q And who was that? 1 A His name was Jim Lorenz. Jim 2 Lorenz. 3 Q And what were your duties and 4 responsibilities? 5 A Just ordinary office 6 administrative, whatever. I can't really 7 remember what my duties -- 8 Q You were a secretary? 9 A Yeah. Yes. 10 Q And how long did you work there? 11 A A year and a half. 12 Q Who were some of the other people 13 that worked there at that time? 14 A I really -- I don't remember any 15 names specifically. 16 Q Do you have any brothers and 17 sisters? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 Q And you regularly confide in them 20 as well, correct? 21 A No, I don't. 22 Q You don't tell them anything? 1 A Of course, I tell them some things, 2 but I don't discuss work with them. 3 Q Who are your brothers and sisters? 4 A I have a brother named Richard. 5 Q And where does he live? 6 A New Jersey. 7 Q Where in New Jersey? 8 A Plainfield. 9 Q And who does he work for? 10 A I'm not sure. 11 Q What type of work does he do? 12 A Electrician. 13 Q And what's his last name? 14 A Same as mine. 15 Q Pond. Do you have any other 16 brothers? 17 A No. 18 Q Any sisters? 19 A Yes, I have two sisters. 20 Q And what are their names? 21 A Sally Weaver. 22 Q And where does she live? 1 A Manassas, Virginia. 2 Q And where does she work? 3 A Actually, she works for a 4 telemarketing firm, and I'm not sure what the 5 name of it is. 6 Q And what's your other sister's 7 name? 8 A Lori Mosconi. 9 Q And where does she live? 10 A Ohio. 11 Q What city? 12 A I think it's Kettering. 13 Q Kettering? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Does she work somewhere? 16 A No. 17 Q Any half-brothers and sisters? 18 A No. 19 Q Are you in regular contact with 20 your brothers and sisters? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Why did you relocate from 1 Washington, D.C., to San Francisco? 2 A I thought it sounded like wonderful 3 fun. 4 Q Did you leave your job at Williams 5 & Connolly voluntarily? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What did you do after you worked 12 for the California Rural Legal Assistance 13 Program? 14 A I returned to Washington. 15 Q And when was that? 16 A The end of 1968. 17 Q And why did you return to 18 Washington? 19 A I was homesick. 20 Q And did you get a job when you 21 returned to Washington? 22 A I did. 1 Q Where did you get a job? 2 A A law firm by the name of Wadden & 3 Dyson. 4 Q And the first names of each those 5 partners, what was Wadden's first name? 6 A Tom and Tom. 7 Q And who did you work for in that 8 law firm? 9 A Mr. Wadden and Mr. Dyson. 10 Q And what type of work did you do? 11 A I was the secretary. 12 Q How long did you stay at that law 13 firm? 14 A Two years. 15 Q Why did you leave? 16 A The law firm broke up. 17 Q During the time that you worked at 18 that law firm, did you get good job reviews? 19 A Yeah. 20 Q Were they ever critical about your 21 work performance? 22 A No. 1 Q Were they ever critical about 2 anything else? 3 A No. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Up to that point in time, had you 7 ever been reviewed in your employment 8 situations both at Williams & Connolly and in 9 California? 10 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 11 and relevancy. 12 THE WITNESS: You know, I don't 13 remember whether it was a formal process, 14 whether there were files kept or whether it 15 was oral or whether when you were given a 16 raise you were told that you'd been doing a 17 good job. It was a lot less formal in those 18 days. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever received, up to that 21 point in time that you left Wadden & Dyson, 22 any criticism in your job performance at any 1 of your positions? 2 A No, I had not. 3 Q And what did you do after you left 4 Wadden & Dyson? 5 A I went to work for a small law firm 6 in Washington. 7 Q And what was the name of that? 8 A The first name was Kuder, second 9 name Sherman, third name Fox & Meehan. 10 Q And how long did you work there? 11 A I'm really not sure. I would 12 probably say two years. 13 Q And what were your duties and 14 responsibilities? 15 A I was a secretary. 16 Q Whose secretary were you? 17 A Mr. Meehan's. 18 Q And who else did you work with at 19 the firm besides Mr. Meehan? 20 A I think that's about it. 21 Q And during that period, did you 22 receive job reviews? 1 A There again I'm not -- are you 2 talking written reviews, oral reviews, or -- 3 Q Either written or oral. 4 A My answer would be the same. It 5 was when you were given a raise you were told 6 that you were doing a good job and that you 7 were getting a raise or a bonus or whatever. 8 Q Did you ever receive any criticism 9 of any kind? 10 A No, I did not. 11 Q How long did you stay there? 12 A I said I think it was about two 13 years. 14 Q So you left in 1970? 15 A I'm not sure whether it was '70, 16 '71 -- no, it couldn't have been '70. I'm 17 just not sure of the exact date. 18 Q Around that period? 19 A Yeah, it could have been until, 20 like, 1972, about in that period. 21 Q And did you do anything 22 professionally after you left? 1 A Yes, I had a job. 2 Q Where did you get a job? 3 A I worked for the Lawyers Committee 4 for Civil Rights. 5 Q And what were your duties and 6 responsibilities there? 7 A I was a secretary. 8 Q And who did you work for? 9 A A person by the name of Bob 10 Wallace. 11 Q And specifically what did you do as 12 a secretary? 13 A We did complaints, briefs, 14 interrogatories, things of that nature. 15 Q Who else worked at the Lawyers 16 Committee for Civil Rights at that time? 17 A I only remember first names -- no, 18 the director's name was Rod Boggs, and the 19 rest of the people I can only remember first 20 names. 21 Q Did Hillary Clinton work for that 22 group? 1 A No. 2 Q Did anyone who was part of the 3 Clinton Administration from 1992 forward work 4 for that group? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware 7 of. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How long did you stay with the 10 Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights? 11 A Until 1974. 12 Q Did you receive job reviews when 13 you were at the Lawyers Committee for Civil 14 Rights? 15 A I'm sure I did. 16 Q Was there anything that was said 17 about you in those job reviews that was 18 negative? 19 A No. 20 Q What happened in 1974 21 professionally? 22 A I went to work for the House 1 Judiciary Committee. 2 Q How did you get that job? 3 A I called and asked for an 4 interview. 5 Q And who did you talk to? 6 A I think I talked to Bob Shelton. 7 Q And who was he? 8 A He was a lawyer, but I think he was 9 trying to staff up the Committee. He was 10 from Baltimore, and I don't know what his 11 duties were except that he was hiring people. 12 Q You wanted to work for the House 13 Judiciary Committee? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q And why did you want to work for 16 the House Judiciary Committee? 17 A I thought that it was going to be a 18 historical event. 19 Q And the event you're talking about 20 is Watergate, correct? 21 A It was called the Special 22 Impeachment Inquiry Staff. 1 Q At that point in time, how would 2 you describe your political views? To the 3 left, to the right, center? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 5 relevance. 6 MR. FLINT: Objection to form and 7 relevancy. 8 THE WITNESS: Actually, my 9 political views all of my life have neither 10 gone one way or -- actually, they have gone 11 one way or the other depending on the people 12 rather than the party. I have -- 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q The Washington Lawyers Committee 15 for Civil Rights -- 16 MR. GREEN: I'm sorry. Did you 17 have something more to say? 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q The Washington Lawyers Committee 21 for Civil Rights, that is a group which is 22 thought of as being to the left, correct? 1 That's their representation in the community? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 3 relevancy. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know what its 5 reputation is as far as left or right. It's 6 helping poor people. That's all I know. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q When you approached the House 9 Judiciary Committee to work for it, you did 10 not have a favorable impression of the Nixon 11 Administration; did you? 12 A Actually, I was more interested in 13 the historical aspects of working on the 14 impeachment staff, rather than my feelings 15 toward Richard Nixon. 16 Q You didn't care much for Richard 17 Nixon? 18 A Probably not. 19 Q You've always been somewhat 20 politically knowledgeable, correct? You 21 follow what goes on in Washington, D.C.? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 THE WITNESS: I'd say I do. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You're pretty interested in issues 4 involving government? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: What kind of issues? 7 Do you mean policy issues? 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Generally. 10 A I'm interested in what goes on in 11 the world. 12 Q When you contacted Mr. Shelton, 13 what did you tell him? 14 A I asked if I could have an 15 interview, that I was interested in working 16 on the staff. And he told me to come up the 17 next morning, and I went up for an interview. 18 Q Tell me everything that happened 19 that led to your ultimately getting a job 20 there. 21 A I just did. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You had the interview? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What was discussed at the 5 interview? 6 A I do not know. That was so many 7 years ago. 8 Q Did you meet other people? 9 A I don't believe so. I think I just 10 met Mr. Shelton. 11 Q Did you get references to submit to 12 try to get that job? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q You got the job at the House 15 Judiciary Committee; I take it? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What were you hired to do? 18 A Just be a secretary, office worker, 19 staffer. 20 Q What specifically were your duties 21 responsibilities as secretary and office 22 worker? 1 A In the beginning, you know, we did 2 everything, and eventually, we worked on 3 specific assignments, and the assignment that 4 I worked on was domestic intelligence. 5 Q What was domestic intelligence? 6 What did that mean? 7 A It meant -- I guess that it was 8 focussed on the work that certain groups did 9 in obtaining domestic intelligence, and 10 whether that was legal or not. 11 Q The groups being Republican groups? 12 A I don't know if they were 13 Republican. 14 Q The groups being the Nixon 15 Administration? 16 A I don't remember if they were 17 members of the Nixon Administration. Some of 18 them may have been consultants. I don't know 19 if they worked within the Nixon 20 Administration. 21 Q Do you remember a group called the 22 Plumbers? 1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q That was one of the domestic 3 intelligence groups? 4 A Yes, it was. 5 Q Do you remember Cuban-Americans 6 being part of the Plumbers? 7 A No, I don't. 8 Q Do you remember people by the name 9 of Gordon Liddy? 10 A I remember Gordon Liddy's name, 11 yes. 12 Q Those were the kinds of groups that 13 you were working on, as part of domestic 14 intelligence? 15 A That was one group. I don't know 16 that there were any other groups. I'm just 17 not sure. 18 Q You were assigned to work with 19 various people in this domestic intelligence 20 unit? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who were you assigned to work with? 1 A I worked with an attorney named 2 Richard Gill. 3 Q Do you know where he is today? 4 A In a state like Alabama. 5 Q You stayed in contact with him, 6 too? 7 A No, and Mr. Nussbaum was the head 8 of that group. 9 Q Mr. Bernie Nussbuam? 10 A Actually -- yes. 11 Q Working in that group was Hillary 12 Rodham Clinton? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you come to know Hillary Rodham 15 Clinton in your job at the Judiciary 16 Committee? 17 A She was a colleague, Hillary 18 Rodham. 19 Q Did you sometimes do work for her 20 or with her? 21 A No. 22 Q You did have contact with her 1 though? 2 A Yeah, we had contact with everyone. 3 Q You talked to her when you were on 4 the committee, correct? 5 A Occasionally, yeah. 6 Q You got to know her? 7 A No, not intimately. 8 Q You got to be friendly with her, 9 correct? 10 A What do you characterize as 11 friendly? 12 Q What do you characterize as 13 friendly? 14 A I characterize friendly is, I try 15 to be polite and friendly with everyone that 16 I work with, but intimate with few, and I 17 would characterize my relationship with 18 Ms. Rodham as being friendly. 19 Q When you worked on the House 20 Judiciary Committee, you were aware that 21 Ms. Rodham worked closely with Bernard 22 Nussbuam, correct? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know. No, I 3 don't know that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You saw Mrs. Rodham in contact with 6 Mr. Nussbaum from time to time? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: We all worked on one 9 little floor, so we were all in contact with 10 each other all the time, but I do not know 11 that Ms. Rodham worked under Mr. Nussbaum 12 directly. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So it was a very small office? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was a floor 17 of a hotel. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q What hotel was that? 20 A The Old Congressional Hotel. 21 Q Where was that located? 22 A New Jersey Avenue. 1 Q Do you know what Hillary Rodham was 2 doing on the Judiciary Committee when you 3 worked there? 4 A My thought was that she worked in 5 Constitutional law. 6 Q How did you find that out? 7 A You know, I don't know, as I'm just 8 sitting here. There was a group that worked 9 on Constitutional law and provided parts of 10 research. 11 Q Did you ever do any work for the 12 group that worked on Constitutional law? 13 A No. 14 Q Members of the office, the staff, 15 sometimes went out to have a drink or have 16 dinner after work, correct? 17 A Mm-hmm. 18 Q You sometimes went out with 19 Ms. Rodham, in the presence of Ms. Rodham? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that. 22 I don't recall specifically whether she was 1 among a group that I might have gone out 2 with, but I'm not saying that she wasn't. I 3 just don't have any recollection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did the lawyers in that committee 6 discriminate against the secretaries who 7 refused to go out to dinner with them or go 8 out to have a drink? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Frequently lawyers and secretaries 13 would go out together, right? 14 A Yes, mm-hmm. 15 Q It's likely that Ms. Rodham did go 16 out socially with members of the staff and 17 you from time to time? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 20 THE WITNESS: I just said that I 21 don't recall whether we ever went out to 22 dinner or did anything together, but I'm not 1 saying that it didn't happen. I just don't 2 recall any specific incidents. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q While you worked at the House 5 Judiciary Committee, you met Bill Clinton? 6 A No. 7 Q He never visited? 8 A No. 9 Q You never had any contact with him 10 during those years? 11 A No. 12 Q Were you aware that Ms. Rodham was 13 married to Bill Clinton at that time? 14 A No. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q How long did you work in the House 18 Judiciary Committee? 19 A From approximately, January or 20 February through August. 21 Q Of what year? 22 A 1974. 1 Q During that period of time, you 2 came to learn that the Nixon Administration 3 had done some very bad things, correct? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 6 coming to learn that the Nixon 7 Administration -- there were Articles of 8 Impeachment were voted out of the Committee 9 that made allegations of wrongdoing. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Correct. 12 A Right. 13 Q Correct? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q You formed an opinion that there 16 was a good reason for those Articles of 17 Impeachment, correct? 18 A I'm not a lawyer, so I did 19 understand the legality of them, but I 20 understood the nature of the charges, and 21 they were serious charges. 22 Q You understood that the Nixon 1 Administration was a Republican 2 Administration, correct? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q During that period of time, you 5 formed a negative view of Republicans, did 6 you not? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: My next job was 10 working in the Ford Administration, so I 11 don't think I had a negative view of 12 Republicans. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But you had a negative view of 15 Nixon? 16 A Actually -- yes, I did, but I felt 17 sorry for him. 18 Q What did you understand was the 19 nature of the impeachment charges against 20 Nixon? 21 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 22 relevancy. 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you repeat the 2 question, please? I'm sorry. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What did you understand was the 5 nature of the impeachment charges against 6 President Nixon? 7 A What were the charges, 8 specifically? Like obstruction of justice, 9 and -- that's the only one I remember. 10 Q You understood the obstruction of 11 justice to mean that he had lied to the 12 American people? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 14 relevancy. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what I 16 understood. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What did you understand? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: Can you narrow that 21 down? I mean, what do you mean, what did I 22 understand? 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you understand at that time 3 that President Nixon had been charged with 4 lying to the American people, destroying 5 documents? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Destroying documents? 8 A I didn't know that any documents 9 were stolen -- destroyed. 10 Q Covering up a scandal? 11 A Yes. 12 Q You viewed that as very serious, 13 correct? 14 A Mm-hmm. Yes, I did. 15 Q During the time that you worked on 16 the House Judiciary Committee, did you ever 17 hear Hillary Rodham say anything? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 MR. FLINT: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: You mean, like could 22 she talk? 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q I'm not making fun of anybody here. 3 I'm just asking a simple question. 4 A Well, I don't -- well, I heard her 5 talk. 6 Q Did you ever hear her express any 7 opinion about what Nixon had done and was 8 charged with? 9 A No, I did not. 10 Q You ever hear anybody in the office 11 express any opinion about Nixon's impeachment 12 charges? 13 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 14 relevancy. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's why we 17 were there. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q In fact, people had rather strong 20 opinions about what Nixon had done, correct? 21 A Actually, Mr. Klayman, there were 22 two parts to the Judiciary Committee. One 1 was the minority staff, and one was the 2 majority staff, so there were two people -- 3 two sets of people working on the same floor. 4 Q You worked on the minority staff? 5 A I did work on the -- I did some 6 work for minority members. 7 Q Excuse me. You worked for the 8 majority staff; I'm sorry. 9 A Yes, I did, but I also did work for 10 minority members. 11 Q Did you ask to work for the 12 majority staff? 13 A No, I did not. 14 Q The majority staff were Democrats, 15 correct? 16 A I would assume that they would have 17 been, but I don't know if that's how people 18 were picked, because they were Democrats. I 19 just don't have any knowledge. 20 Q During the time that you worked on 21 the House Judiciary Committee, did you ever 22 hear Hillary Clinton or Bernard Nussbuam say, 1 gee, if we had committed this crime, we could 2 have done it in a way that we weren't caught? 3 You ever hear anything like that? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection as to form. 5 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 6 and relevancy. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Did you hear them talk about how 10 Nixon could have done it so he wasn't caught? 11 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 12 relevancy. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection 14 and form. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did Mr. Shelton ask you about your 18 politics in your interview for the job? 19 A No, he did not. 20 Q Did you receive job performance 21 reviews when you worked on the House 22 Judiciary Committee? 1 A No. 2 Q During the time that you worked on 3 the House Judiciary Committee, you formed a 4 friendship with Mrs. Rodham; did you not? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 6 answered. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. I was 8 acquainted with her. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did she ever prepare any 11 recommendations for you for future 12 employment, Mrs. Rodham? 13 A No. 14 Q Have you ever told anyone that you 15 were close to Mrs. Clinton, when you worked 16 on the House Judiciary Committee? 17 A No. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Have you ever told anyone in the 21 last seven years that you worked with 22 Mrs. Clinton on the House Judiciary 1 Committee? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Who did you tell that? 4 A Just -- God, I don't know. When 5 Clinton started to run for President, I 6 remembered that I worked with Hillary a long 7 time ago, and I'm sure I mentioned it, you 8 know, I used to work with her. 9 Q Who did you mention it to? 10 A I don't know, Mr. Klayman. You 11 know, it could have been anybody. 12 Q You mentioned it to the people that 13 you identified this morning that you're close 14 with? 15 A No, it could have been anyone. 16 Q You were quite proud of having 17 worked with her, right? 18 A It wasn't so much as being proud as 19 here she was, you know. I didn't really know 20 her at the impeachment staff, so, you know, I 21 wouldn't know whether -- I wouldn't have 22 known -- it wasn't proudness. It was 1 happiness. 2 Q Why were you happy? 3 A I just was happy. I don't -- 4 Q You were happy, because you now 5 knew someone in a high position of power, 6 correct? 7 A I didn't know her. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't know her. I 10 knew who she was. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q She knew who you were, correct? 13 A I doubt it. I doubt she could pick 14 me out. 15 Q Did you get to know Bernie Nussbuam 16 pretty well when you worked at the Committee? 17 A Yes. 18 Q You worked with him on a regular 19 basis? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What did you do for Mr. Nussbaum? 22 A Actually, Mr. Nussbaum brought his 1 secretary down from New York, and we worked 2 as a team. We worked as a team to support 3 the people in the area that we worked? 4 Q Who was his secretary from New 5 York? 6 A Jane Ricca. 7 Q Do you know where Ms. Ricca is 8 today? 9 A No, I don't. 10 Q Have you spoken with Mr. Nussbaum 11 in the last four years? 12 A Yes. 13 Q When did you speak with him? 14 A I spoke to him at around the time 15 that I found out I had been implicated in the 16 Filegate case, and he advised me to talk to a 17 lawyer, that our conversation was not 18 privileged, and it would be better if we did 19 not talk. 20 Q Did he contact you, or did you 21 contact him? 22 A I contacted him. I was stunned. 1 Q When was this contact? 2 A It probably was right around the 3 time that I found out that I was accused of 4 doing whatever I did with the FBI files. 5 Q In this lawsuit that you're here on 6 today? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Where was Mr. Nussbaum when you 9 called him? 10 A At his office, I imagine. 11 Q This was a telephone call? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You talked to him on more than one 14 occasion? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you start the conversation, or 17 did he start it? 18 A Well, I initiated the call, so I 19 would assume that I started it, but I'm 20 not -- I would have started the conversation 21 like, you're not going to believe this, and 22 I've been implicated in the Filegate case, 1 and I don't know anything about it. How 2 could this happen? He said, get a lawyer. 3 Any conversation you have with me is not 4 privileged, and we can't talk about it. 5 Q How long did the conversation last? 6 A About as long as I just took to 7 relay that. 8 Q He told you to go find a lawyer at 9 Sidley & Austin? 10 A No. 11 Q Where did he tell you to go find a 12 lawyer? 13 A He did not tell me where to find a 14 lawyer. He suggested that I retain a lawyer. 15 Q Did he tell you to go check with 16 Williams & Connolly to refer you to a lawyer? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q At the time you talked to 21 Mr. Nussbaum, he knew that you had worked 22 previously for Williams & Connolly? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection as to form. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 3 THE WITNESS: You know, 4 Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure whether he did know 5 that or not. In his memory -- I mean, I'm 6 sure that I told him at some time that I had 7 worked at Williams & Connolly, or Williams & 8 Stein, but I don't know that he still 9 remembered it, because it wasn't something we 10 talked about a lot of times. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q When you worked on the house 13 Judiciary Committee, you got to know 14 Mr. Nussbaum well, correct? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 16 answered. 17 THE WITNESS: Not very well. I was 18 comfortable with Mr. Nussbaum and his 19 secretary. We spent a lot of time together, 20 and I was fond of both of them. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Mr. Nussbuam, as far as you know, 1 had a favorable impression of your work? 2 A As far as I know. 3 Q Did you talk to Mr. Nussbaum on any 4 other occasions in the last four years? 5 A Yes. I can't -- 6 Q You talk to Mr. Nussbaum fairly 7 regularly, correct? 8 A Yeah. 9 Q When did you leave The White House? 10 A August 1995. 11 Q Since you left The White House, 12 have you ever talked to him about matters 13 involving government files? 14 A No. 15 Q Craig Livingstone? 16 A No. 17 Q William Kennedy? 18 A No. 19 Q Vince Foster? 20 A No. 21 Q We're going to be taking 22 Mr. Nussbaum's deposition shortly, so I'm 1 going to ask him these questions. 2 A Fine. 3 Q Will he tell me the same thing? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you ever discuss matters with 6 Mr. Nussbaum about what was going on in The 7 White House counsel's office? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 10 MR. FLINT: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sure I did. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What did you tell him? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Let me back up. Mr. Nussbaum left 17 before you did, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q He was fired, correct? 20 A He resigned under fire, under fire. 21 Q He was asked to leave, correct? 22 You know that. 1 A I'm just trying to avoid -- 2 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 3 Objection to form, and don't badger the 4 witness. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not badgering 6 her. I couldn't be nicer. 7 THE WITNESS: Actually, I was 8 trying to answer in a lawyer-type way, 9 because he submitted a letter of resignation, 10 which was then accepted by the President. So 11 I don't know whether legally that was being 12 fired, or he resigned. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q But you're aware, having worked in 15 The White House Counsel's Office, that The 16 White House had asked for his resignation? 17 A I'm not sure that I knew that. I 18 knew that it was very tumultuous. It was a 19 very -- I'm trying to think of a word to 20 describe it. It was very tense. It was 21 very -- there was a lot of publicity. There 22 was a lot of unfavorable publicity. That's 1 all I can say. 2 Q What did you understand the root 3 cause of the tenseness and the unfavorable 4 publicity to be about? 5 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 6 relevancy and form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 A You know, Mr. Klayman, I'm not real 10 sure. There were several issues going on at 11 the time, and I don't think I've ever been 12 sure on exactly what was going on 13 specifically. 14 Q You're aware that there was a lot 15 of criticism inside The White House that 16 Mr. Nussbaum had mishandled management of the 17 Clinton scandals? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. I never heard -- 21 no one ever said that to -- 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q You were reading the newspapers 2 during the time you worked there, correct? 3 A Right. 4 Q You did see articles in the 5 newspaper criticizing Mr. Nussbaum for not 6 having been responsive to document requests? 7 A What kind of document requests? 8 Q From government bodies 9 investigating the scandals of the Clinton 10 Administration? 11 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: Could be more 14 specific? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You are aware that The Clinton 17 Administration was emersed in what the 18 meeting was calling scandals when you worked 19 there, right? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 21 relevancy. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: There were 3 investigations. I wouldn't go so far as to 4 call them scandals. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You never heard anyone use the word 7 scandals about what was going on at The White 8 House when you worked there? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. You say 11 when I worked there. Are you talking about 12 my co-workers? Are you talking about the 13 media, the press? Exactly who are you 14 referring to? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q During the time that you worked at 17 The White House, did you ever hear from any 18 source reference to the Clinton 19 Administration's conduct as being scandalous? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 21 THE WITNESS: I read a lot of news 22 reports. I don't recall ever hearing anybody 1 within the Administration referring to 2 matters as scandals. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you read about that in the 5 press, that the press was talking about the 6 Clinton Administration's conduct as having 7 caused scandals? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: That's really a 10 characterization that I wouldn't be 11 familiar -- comfortable with saying, 12 scandals. There were investigations. There 13 were questions that were coming up, but I 14 didn't perceive them as being scandals. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q I'm asking you whether you read 17 other people's perceptions of them as 18 scandals in the newspaper. 19 A Well, what I'm saying is, I don't 20 remember if they were referred to as 21 scandals. I'm sure that some of the press 22 that I read referred to them as scandals; 1 others didn't. It's just that I can't say. 2 It's like you're trying to get me to agree 3 that they should be characterized as scandals 4 and -- 5 Q No, I'm just asking you the 6 question. I'm being very careful to ask you 7 whether you heard other people refer to the 8 Clintons' conduct as giving rise to scandals. 9 A I read news reports. 10 Q So you were aware that the Clinton 11 Administration was being accused of having 12 involved itself in scandals? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 14 relevancy and asked and answered. 15 MR. FLINT: Objection, form, 16 relevancy, and redundancy. 17 THE WITNESS: Can I object? I 18 don't -- the word scandal bothers me. There 19 were a lot of investigations, and there were 20 a lot of people that called them scandals, 21 but I personally can't refer to them as 22 scandals. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You don't believe that the Clinton 3 Administration has ever done anything wrong, 4 correct? 5 A Oh, I didn't say that. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 7 relevancy. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What do you understand the Clinton 10 Administration to have done wrong during its 11 years in power? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 13 relevancy, form. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that 15 there would be anything that I would 16 specifically say wrong. I think that there 17 were some poor judgment calls, perhaps, but I 18 don't believe that -- I can't -- nothing 19 comes to my mind that I would consider wrong. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What are the poor judgment calls 22 that you're talking about? 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 2 relevancy. 3 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 4 relevancy. 5 THE WITNESS: Nothing really comes 6 to my mind, specifically. I don't believe I 7 could give you an example. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you aware that when the Clinton 10 Administration came to power in 1992, that 11 President Clinton promised the most ethical 12 administration in America history? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 14 Relevance. 15 THE WITNESS: Didn't he come to 16 power in 1993? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q January 20, 1993, sworn in as 19 President of the United States, he promised 20 the most ethical administration in history, 21 correct? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 2 relevancy. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Can I just remind 4 you, Mr. Klayman, that the court's admonished 5 precisely those kinds of questions as being 6 irrelevant and a waste of time here. I'm not 7 going to instruct her not to answer, but I'd 8 just remind you of the bounds of this 9 examination. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd be happy to 11 submit your analysis of Judge Lamberth's 12 orders to him. We'll see if we can get a 13 clarification. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Please respond. 16 A I'm sorry. Your question was, did 17 the President make a statement promising that 18 his administration would be ethical? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes, I believe he did. 21 Q Is it your belief this 22 administration has been ethical? 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 3 relevancy. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Can you think of anything it's done 7 which was not ethical? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 9 relevancy. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I can't think of 11 anything. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Is there any aspect of its conduct 14 in the last seven years that you take issue 15 with? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 17 relevancy. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 19 relevancy. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A Are you asking me as a layperson? 1 Because I -- 2 Q I'm asking you as Betsy Pond. 3 A Do I -- is there anything that I 4 object to? 5 Q Is there anything that you know of, 6 having read in the newspaper or having 7 experienced at The White House or elsewhere, 8 that troubles you about this administration 9 or anything it's done? 10 A No. 11 Q Was Mr. Nussbaum criticized for his 12 handling of the documents in Vince Foster's 13 office after Mr. Foster died? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Was he criticized inside The White 16 House about that? 17 A Not that I recall. I remember 18 reading press stories about it. 19 Q Was there ever any discussion, that 20 you know of, in The White House about 21 Mr. Nussbaum's handling of documents in 22 Mr. Foster's office after he died? 1 A No, but no one would have discussed 2 that with me per se. I mean -- 3 Q You worked for the Judiciary 4 Committee for how long? 5 A I believe it was from January 6 through August, and I believe it was 1974, 7 but I'm not sure. 8 Q What happened in 1974? 9 A The President -- 10 Q Professionally. 11 A After the President resigned -- 12 actually, I took a couple of jobs just 13 temping for a few months, and then I went to 14 work for the Ford Administration. 15 Q How did you get your job for the 16 Ford Administration? 17 A My former boss, Peter Taft, was 18 named assistant attorney general of the then 19 Lands Division, and he asked me to come and 20 work for him. 21 Q Lands Division of the Justice 22 Department? 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Mr. Taft having been an attorney 3 with Williams & Connolly? 4 A Yes. 5 Q How long did you work in the Lands 6 Division for Mr. Taft? 7 A I believe I would put it at right 8 around two years. 9 Q You were a career person? 10 A No, I was political. 11 Q What was your job? 12 A I was confidential assistant to the 13 assistant attorney general. 14 Q That was Mr. Taft? 15 A Yes. 16 Q What were your duties and 17 responsibilities? 18 A Just running the office, making 19 sure things ran smoothly. 20 Q Besides Mr. Taft, who did you work 21 for in that office? 22 A Just Mr. Taft. 1 Q Were there other people in the 2 office? 3 A There was another secretary, and 4 there was a career deputy assistant attorney 5 general. 6 Q What was the name of the other 7 secretary? 8 A Susan, but I don't remember the 9 last name. 10 Q Do you know where she is today? 11 A No, sir, I don't. 12 Q Who else? 13 A The deputy assistant attorney 14 general. 15 Q Who was that? 16 A His name was KÄÄÄÄl, and don't ask 17 me how to spell it. I don't remember. 18 Q KÄÄÄÄl? 19 A KÄÄÄÄl. 20 Q With a K or a C? 21 A K, I believe. 22 Q Do you know where he is today? 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q Was he a lawyer? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You stayed there for two years? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did you got job evaluations when 7 you were there? 8 A I don't know. I just am not sure I 9 know how job evaluations would have come 10 about. 11 Q Did anyone ever make any negative 12 comments about your work performance? 13 A No. 14 Q Or any other aspect? 15 A No. 16 Q When did you leave? 17 A Probably around August of '76. 18 Q What happened then? 19 A President Ford was defeated and 20 President Carter's staff took over, but my 21 boss was in the middle of negotiating a case, 22 and he was asked to stay on for a while, so I 1 stayed on with him. 2 Q How long did you stay on? 3 A Until August. 4 Q What happened then? 5 A Then I joined Judy Hope in the firm 6 of Wald Harkrader & Ross. 7 Q Again Judy Hope you had met at 8 Williams & Connolly? 9 A Yes, and she was also with the Ford 10 administration. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q This was August 1977? 14 A No. I think it was -- wait a 15 minute. The election was '76. '77, you're 16 correct. 17 Q What were your duties and 18 responsibilities working with Ms. Hope? 19 A I was a secretary. 20 Q In addition to Ms. Hope, who did 21 you work with at Wald Harkrader & Ross? 22 A I don't believe I worked with 1 anybody else. I mean, we worked on cases, 2 and matters with other people, but nobody 3 comes to mind specifically. 4 Q Were there other secretaries that 5 you worked with? 6 A I'm sure there were but I don't 7 recall who they -- what their names were. 8 Q How long did you stay at Wald 9 Harkrader & Ross? 10 A Two years. 11 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, but there 12 seems to be a number of these jobs throughout 13 your employment history you stay for about 14 two years. Do you have kind of a rule that 15 you'll stay at a place for two years? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: No, I have no rule on 19 how long I stay at a place. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q When did you leave Wald Harkrader & 22 Ross? 1 A 1979. 2 Q What did you do then? 3 A I went to work for the new 4 secretary of education. 5 Q Who was that? 6 A Shirley Hoffstedler. 7 Q That was during the Carter 8 Administration? 9 A Yes, it was. 10 Q How did you get that job? 11 A Through a person that I met through 12 Mr. Taft, and who was a friend of Mr. Taft's. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: We need to change the 14 video. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video record 16 at 12:15. 17 (Recess) 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 19 video record at 12:33. 20 MR. FLINT: Mr. Klayman, before we 21 get started, I think Ms. Pond has one 22 question she answered for you she'd like to 1 clarify. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 3 THE WITNESS: You asked me if there 4 was anything that I considered unethical by 5 the Administration, and I take that to mean 6 the Administration, but I -- if you're 7 including in that the President's conduct, 8 then I do find that objectionable. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q What -- 11 A I'm sorry. The President's conduct 12 with respect to the Lewinsky matter. 13 Q Which aspect of it? 14 A All of it. 15 Q What do you mean by all of it? All 16 the parts that he's admitted to? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A I just -- you know, I don't know 21 how to quite answer that because I said none 22 of it. 1 Q Well, let me lay the foundation 2 just so we can get your state of mind. But 3 before you wanted to give this explanation, 4 you did have a chance to consult with your 5 counsel at the break, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q The President has admitted to not 8 telling the truth to the American people, 9 correct? 10 A Mm-hmm. 11 MR. GREEN: We need an oral answer. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm sorry. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q That's what I find objectionable, 15 correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q He's admitted to having an 18 inappropriate relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, 19 you find that objectionable? 20 A Yes. 21 Q That's the part that you find 22 objectionable? 1 A You want to name some more? 2 Q Well, are there other aspects of 3 what he did that you find objectionable? 4 A I don't know. I just don't know 5 what you were referring to. I said I thought 6 everything about it was objectionable to me. 7 Q Well, what did you understand it to 8 entail? 9 A Just what you said. 10 Q So we're clear on that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q In fact the President has said he 13 finds it objectionable too, correct, those 14 two aspects? 15 A I guess so. 16 Q Is there anything more than the 17 President himself has admitted to being 18 objectionable that you find objectionable? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to form. 20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I really 21 can't remember anything specifically. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q So we're up to your employment 2 in 1979. You're working for the new 3 secretary of education? 4 A Right. 5 Q What were your duties and 6 responsibilities for her? 7 A I did some scheduling, just general 8 office duties. It was a new cabinet office. 9 There was a lot of activity going on. 10 Q How long did you work there? 11 A Until 1981. 12 Q Did you work directly for the 13 secretary of education? 14 A I was one of -- there was a staff 15 that worked for her, and I was a member of 16 that staff. 17 Q Who did you work with on this 18 staff? 19 A There was a person -- scheduling 20 person named Jennifer, and I can't remember 21 her last name, and someone named Muriel. 22 Then there was like a chief of staff whose 1 name was Richard Gilman, and then there was a 2 chief of staff, Mike Smith, and that's where 3 I met my friend Gale Massot. 4 Q Except for Gale Massot or in 5 addition to Gale Massot, have you stayed in 6 contact with anybody over the years? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you receive any job evaluations 9 on that position? 10 A I don't believe so. We weren't 11 there very long. 12 Q Did anyone ever express 13 dissatisfaction with your work or your 14 behavior? 15 A No. 16 Q In 1981 you left? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Where did you go? 19 A I took a short-term job working for 20 Elliot Richardson. 21 Q Where was Mr. Richardson at the 22 time? 1 A Milbank Tweed Hadley & McCloy. 2 Q How did you get that job? 3 A Someone recommended it -- 4 recommended me for the job that I had worked 5 with at the Education Department. 6 Q Recommended you specifically to 7 Mr. Richardson? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did he hire you as his secretary? 10 A Yes. 11 Q How long did you work for 12 Mr. Richardson? 13 A Actually, I was only there -- I was 14 only hired for -- one of his assistants went 15 out on maternity leave, so I just was filling 16 in for her. 17 Q Who was that assistant? 18 A Margarite -- I can't remember 19 Margarite's last name right now. 20 Q Have you stayed in contact with 21 Margarite? 22 A No. 1 Q Do you know where she is? 2 A I think she's still with Elliot. 3 Q So you only worked there for a 4 couple months? 5 A Well, it was about seven months, 6 nine months, less than a year. 7 Q Did you receive any job evaluations 8 on that job? 9 A No. 10 Q Did anyone express anything, any 11 criticism about your work performance or 12 behavior? 13 A No. 14 Q What happened after seven months? 15 A Then I joined the firm of Paul 16 Hastings. Judy Hope took a job there and 17 asked me to come along and work for him, and 18 that was in 1981. 19 Q How long did you work there at Paul 20 Hastings? 21 A Until March of '93. 22 Q So you were there for 12 years? 1 A Yes. 2 Q You worked for Ms. Hope the entire 3 time? 4 A I worked for Ms. Hope, and I also 5 did -- the last several years I was there, I 6 did government affairs, legislative tracking, 7 and work like that. 8 Q Who did you work with on that task? 9 A Actually, it was under Ms. Hope's 10 umbrella. 11 Q What are some of the other 12 attorneys that you worked for there? 13 A Bruce Ryan. 14 Q Bruce Ryan? 15 A Mm-hmm. John Carey. 16 Q Not the senator from Massachusetts? 17 A No. Joe Smith, nobody else comes 18 to mind, but if they do, I'll bring them to 19 your attention. 20 Q Have you stayed in contact with any 21 of these people? 22 A Judy Hope I have -- I see a couple 1 of people to play golf with every now and 2 then -- actually, just one person. 3 Q Who's that? 4 A Her name's Charlotte Sanders. 5 Q Charlotte Sanders? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You play golf with her? 8 A Yes. 9 Q You're a golfer? 10 A I wouldn't go that far. 11 Q How long have you known 12 Ms. Sanders? 13 A I really don't know how long she's 14 been there, but I would say a good ten years. 15 Q Is she still there? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Are these other people still there? 18 A Some of them and some of them 19 aren't. 20 Q Ms. Sanders is someone that you do 21 share your professional personal experiences 22 with, from time to time, when you're on the 1 golf course? 2 A No. 3 Q Have you ever discussed any aspect 4 of your work at The White House with 5 Ms. Sanders? 6 A No. 7 Q You're sure of that? 8 A Yes, I am. 9 Q Have you ever discussed anything 10 involving Vince Foster with Ms. Sanders? 11 A No. 12 Q What do you talk about when you 13 play golf? 14 A How I can be a better golfer. 15 She's much more experienced than I am, and 16 she gives me a lot of tips. 17 Q Anybody else that worked at that 18 firm that you've stayed in contact with? 19 A Yes, as a matter of fact there is. 20 Donna Brown, she worked for Mrs. Hope, too, 21 and she left to -- her husband was dying of 22 cancer and she left, but I still am very good 1 friends with her. 2 Q Where Is Ms. Brown located? 3 A Jonsville, Maryland. 4 Q How's that spelled? 5 A It starts with a J. I don't know 6 how to spell it. It's called Jonsville but 7 it starts with a J rather than I. 8 Q You stay in regular contact with 9 her? 10 A Yes. 11 Q She's a very good friend? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You've told her some of your 14 experiences at The White House, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q You talked to her about Linda 17 Tripp? 18 A Yes, that's fair. 19 Q What did you tell her about Linda 20 Tripp? 21 A Same thing that I recounted 22 earlier. 1 Q That she's an evil person? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MR. FLINT: Objection to 4 characterization. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you ever told anyone that 8 she's an evil person? 9 A I don't specifically remember using 10 the word evil. 11 Q Have you used any words other than 12 what you previously used? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can respond. 16 A I'm sure I have. 17 Q Such as? 18 A Horrid. 19 Q Horrid? 20 A Horrid. Horrid. 21 Q Horrid. 22 A She's a very angry woman. 1 Q Dishonest? 2 A She does not tell the truth. 3 Q Nasty? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Vicious? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to leading 8 questions. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Vengeful? 11 MR. FLINT: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Vengeful? 14 MR. FLINT: Objection to leading 15 questions. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. You can 17 object. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Lawyers just make objections. You 20 can answer. 21 A Yes, I consider her vengeful. 22 Q Hateful? 1 A Mr. Klayman, it's very difficult 2 for me to sit here and, you know, use 3 negative words about somebody. I think you 4 know how I feel, and I don't want to keep 5 going through adjectives that describe her. 6 I mean, I think I've said enough. I don't 7 like to sit here and say mean things about 8 anybody. 9 Q Well, I just asked you what words 10 you used with Ms. Brown. 11 MR. FLINT: I object to that 12 comment because I don't believe that was the 13 question. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: That was the 15 question. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Now, why did you leave Paul 18 Hastings in 1993? 19 A Because I wanted to work in the 20 Clinton Administration. 21 Q Before I ask you that, you know, we 22 talked about your contact with Bernie 1 Nussbuam since he left The White House 2 Counsel's Office. 3 Did you ever talk to him about 4 Linda Tripp since he left The White House 5 Counsel's Office? 6 A I'm sure that I mentioned Linda 7 Tripp's name. 8 Q What did you tell him about Linda 9 Tripp? 10 A You know, I don't have any specific 11 recollection of exactly what I said to him. 12 It's been a long -- you know, it's been a 13 long time uncovering. 14 Q Let's go to 1993. You wanted to 15 work for the Clinton Administration? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Why did you want to work for them? 18 A I thought it would be exciting. It 19 was a new administration. 20 Q You liked the things that they said 21 they were going to do? 22 A Yes. 1 Q You'd voted for President Clinton? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 3 MR. FLINT: Leading questions 4 again, objection. Constantly. It's also a 5 privacy issue. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll see if she 7 wants to answer it. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You were proud of both much, then? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 12 relevancy. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You liked Hillary Clinton a lot? 16 MR. FLINT: Again objection leading 17 questions constantly. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You liked Hillary Clinton a lot? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I liked both of 22 them. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You admired them? 3 A Yes. I thought they were very 4 smart. 5 Q Why did you admire them? 6 A I thought they were very 7 intelligent. I thought that it was a new 8 horizon, a new -- time for some change. 9 Q You didn't like the job that the 10 Bush Administration had done, correct? 11 A Actually, I didn't have any real 12 objection to it one way or the other. 13 Q But you didn't think they were good 14 for the country? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't 17 characterize it that way. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You thought the Bush Administration 20 did a bad job on the economy? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: I didn't think about 1 what they did on the economy. In fact, I 2 probably voted for George Bush. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q When? 5 A Didn't he run for election? 6 Q I'm asking the questions. 7 A I guess he was only in one term so 8 I guess that was a mistake. 9 Q So how did you go about getting 10 your job in the Clinton Administration? What 11 did you do to try to get a job there? 12 A I called Mr. Nussbaum and asked him 13 if I could come in and talk to him about 14 helping me find a job in the administration. 15 Q Where was Mr. Nussbaum when you 16 called him? 17 A He was in The White House Counsel's 18 Office. 19 Q How did you learn he was there? 20 A Newspaper articles. I kept in 21 touch with Jane. 22 Q Did you go in and talk to him about 1 a job? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q Did you meet with him at The White 4 House? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q Was anyone else present? 7 A No. 8 Q What did you say to Mr. Nussbaum? 9 A I told Mr. Nussbaum that I was 10 interested in working for the Clinton 11 Administration, that I had a number of 12 specific areas that I was interested in and I 13 wasn't sure how to go about it at that time, 14 but I had some interest. 15 Q Did you tell him where you thought 16 you'd like to work? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Where was that? 19 A Department of Transportation. 20 Q Did you tell him you wanted to work 21 in The White House? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Why did you want to go to 4 Department of Transportation? 5 A Because I had worked a lot with 6 transportation in my law firm. We did a lot 7 of aviation matters, a lot of transportation. 8 I knew the department pretty well. I knew 9 the person in the Bush Administration whose 10 job I wanted. 11 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum say anything to 12 you? 13 A Yes. 14 Q What did he say? 15 A He said why don't you come here and 16 work for a while and we'll set up and then 17 we'll get you a job. 18 Q When he said here, he meant The 19 White House Counsel's Office? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did he tell you that he wanted you 22 to work for him? 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did he tell you who you'd be 3 working with? 4 A For him. 5 Q Did he tell you about other people 6 in the office that you'd be working with? 7 A Yes. I met Mr. Foster, and there 8 were a couple of people there that were 9 detailees who were sitting in the Counsel's 10 Office at that time. I don't remember their 11 names. 12 Q Did he ask you to submit a resume 13 or any kind of government forms? 14 A Not at that time. I submitted FBI 15 name checks and fingerprints right away. 16 Q Who was the person in the Bush 17 Administration whose job you wanted at the 18 transportation department? 19 A Her name was Ruth Kounse. 20 Q Do you know where she is today? 21 A Texas. 22 Q Who does she work for? 1 A You know, I'm not sure. 2 Q You wanted her job because she had 3 described it to you and you thought it was 4 pretty good? 5 A Yeah, and I worked with her a lot 6 in my previous job, and I'd known Ruth for a 7 long time. 8 Q Do you know what city in Texas 9 she's in? 10 A No, I don't. I think that she or 11 her husband works for Kay, Bailey and 12 Hutchinson, but I'm not sure where that 13 office is. 14 Q Are there any people other than 15 Linda Tripp who don't like you? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm sure that 18 there's some out there. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Name a couple. 21 A I really -- I don't know. No, 22 nobody dislikes me in the way that Linda 1 does, and I just can't remember anybody else 2 that I would -- that I would consider an 3 enemy. 4 Q Do you know of anyone that just 5 simply dislikes you? 6 A As I said, I'm sure that there are 7 people, but nobody comes to mind. You know, 8 I haven't thought about people who might 9 dislike me. 10 Q So as far as you understand, Linda 11 Tripp is the only one you can think of in the 12 entire world who dislikes you? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 MR. FLINT: Objection, and I think 15 it's a mischaracterization of her testimony. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: It's exactly 17 accurate. You can answer the question. 18 THE WITNESS: That's what I would 19 answer the question as right now because I 20 haven't spent any time thinking about it so 21 nobody comes to my mind right away. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q Did Linda Tripp ever tell you that 2 she dislikes you? 3 A I don't believe so. 4 Q So you went to The White House 5 Counsel's Office, you met Bernie Nussbuam. 6 Did he introduce you to some of his 7 colleagues at that meeting? 8 A To Vince Foster. 9 Q Did you meet with Vince Foster? 10 A Just to say hello. 11 Q Did you say anything else to him or 12 did he say anything to you? 13 A Not that I recall. 14 Q What happened after that? 15 A I went to work there. 16 Q Well, how did you get to go to work 17 there? Did they ask you to submit forms, 18 references, other materials? 19 A Yes. You fill out the initial -- I 20 can't remember what they're called now. You 21 do the FBI check, the fingerprints, and then 22 you submit the long personnel form, and I did 1 that, and then I was hired. 2 Q What long personnel form are you 3 talking about? The 86? 4 A SF 86. 5 Q SF 86? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you put anything down on that 8 form that you thought was going to cause you 9 problems in getting employment? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you answer all questions 15 truthfully? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Completely truthfully? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you have any meetings with FBI 20 personnel to get your security clearance? 21 A You mean at that time, at the time 22 that I met -- 1 Q During the application process or 2 thereafter? 3 A Oh, yes. 4 Q Who did you meet with? 5 A I met with people from the security 6 office and people from the FBI. 7 Q Who did you meet with from the 8 security office? 9 A I met with Craig. 10 Q Craig Livingstone? 11 A Yes. 12 Q I presume. 13 A Yes. I filled out some 14 applications -- Tony Marceca helped me with 15 some blanks that I had left out, and I think 16 that that's it. 17 Q When you met with Mr. Livingstone, 18 did he tell you what his job responsibilities 19 were? 20 A Pardon me? 21 Q Did Mr. Livingstone tell you what 22 his job responsibilities were when you met 1 with him? 2 A No. 3 Q Did Mr. Marceca? 4 A No. 5 Q When did Mr. Marceca help you with 6 the forms? 7 A When I submitted them. I'm trying 8 to remember when I submitted the lodge forms, 9 and I think it would have been about October. 10 Q Did either Mr. Livingstone or 11 Mr. Marceca tell you how they had gotten 12 their jobs? 13 A No. 14 Q At any time that you were in The 15 White House? 16 A No. 17 Q In applying for your job at The 18 White House, did you get a recommendation 19 from Hillary Clinton? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ask for one? 22 A No. 1 Q You understood that being 2 recommended by Bernard Nussbuam was the 3 equivalent of getting a recommendation from 4 Hillary Clinton, correct? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You understood that Nussbuam became 11 good friends with Hillary Clinton when they 12 worked on the Watergate Committee? 13 A They were friends. I don't know 14 how good of friends. I was not familiar with 15 their relationship. 16 Q But you knew that you saw 17 Mrs. Clinton, then Mrs. Rodham, in the 18 presence of Mr. Nussbaum frequently? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 21 MR. FLINT: Join. 22 THE WITNESS: You mean when we 1 worked on the Judiciary Committee? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Yes. 4 A Yes, we were all together. 5 Q In the years, in keeping in contact 6 with Bernard Nussbuam, after that Watergate 7 time period, Mr. Nussbaum had mentioned 8 Hillary Clinton from time to time? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall 12 until the election. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q What did he mention at the 15 election? 16 A That he hoped that they won. 17 Q Because he was going to get a good 18 job if they did? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: That wasn't 21 discussed. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q Now, what did you understand your 2 duties and responsibilities were going to be 3 at The White House Counsel's Office? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. FLINT: I'm sorry. I missed 6 part of that question. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What did you understand your duties 9 and responsibilities were going to be when 10 you began working at The White House 11 Counsel's Office? I'm talking about the 12 period when you made the applications. 13 A I was to be in charge of the outer 14 office, staff it up, run it, do the 15 scheduling for Mr. Nussbaum, speaking 16 engagements, et cetera, all that that 17 entails, and actually Deborah Gorham was 18 there already. 19 Q Did you meet her when you met 20 Nussbuam in The White House Counsel's Office? 21 A You mean when I came over to meet 22 Mr. Nussbaum? 1 Q Yeah. 2 A I probably did. She probably was 3 introduced to me. 4 Q What did you understand Deborah 5 Gorham's responsibilities were going to be 6 vis-a-vis your own? 7 A She worked for Mr. Foster, and I 8 don't know what her duties were for 9 Mr. Foster. 10 Q When you refer to the outer office, 11 what are you talking about? 12 A The support staff that supported 13 The White House Counsel's Office in the west 14 wing. 15 Q Do you remember the room numbers of 16 the outer office? 17 A I don't even know if they had room 18 numbers. 19 Q There came a point in time when you 20 began to work at The White House? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who notified you that you got the 1 position? 2 A I was notified right away. 3 Q Who notified you? 4 A Mr. Nussbaum asked me to come to 5 work there. 6 Q So he told you that the application 7 process was just a formality to fill out 8 these forms? 9 A No. They waited until the check 10 was done, and then assuming it was okay, I 11 would come to work there. 12 Q So you received your security 13 clearance before you started work at The 14 White House Counsel's Office? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: There were two 18 levels, one was an immediate and I don't know 19 what it's called -- it's a check like to see, 20 you know, are you a convict, to make sure 21 that you're an okay person, that you don't 22 have any criminal background. 1 You fill out forms for that, and 2 then rerun through that, and they do a 3 fingerprint check. When that is cleared, 4 then they brought me on. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Were there security forms that you 7 submitted six months after you began to 8 actually work in The White House Counsel's 9 Office? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What forms were they? 12 A That was the SF 86 or whatever 13 those long forms are. 14 Q Why was there a six-month period 15 between the time you began work and 16 submitting the SF 86 forms? 17 A One of the primary reasons is that 18 I just didn't have time to do it. I didn't 19 have time to get all the information 20 together, research where I had lived, what 21 countries I'd traveled to. 22 It was rather a laborious task, and 1 it took a while to gather all the 2 information. 3 Q Had anyone ever complained that you 4 hadn't submitted your forms sooner at The 5 White House? 6 A Yes. There was -- The White House 7 complained about anybody who didn't submit 8 their forms. 9 Q Who complained? 10 A I think Craig Livingstone, Bill 11 Kennedy. I think that they knew -- you know, 12 they were keeping on people who hadn't 13 submitted the forms. 14 Q Did these people complain directly 15 to you? 16 A Yes. 17 Q In writing? 18 A No. 19 Q What did Mr. Livingstone say? 20 A Get your forms? 21 Q What did Mr. Kennedy say? 22 A We gotta have your forms. 1 Q So what date did you actually begin 2 working at The White House? 3 A The end of March. 4 Q March of '93? 5 A Yes. 6 Q What tasks were you immediately 7 assigned to work on? 8 A Staffing the office. 9 Q What did staffing the office 10 entail? 11 A Well, when I arrived, we were 12 working with some detailees, and there was 13 nobody there who had any historical 14 knowledge, there was nobody there who was 15 staying longer than a detailee, and we were 16 trying to get people who would come in and be 17 with us for a while. The detailees had to go 18 back to their jobs. 19 Q You were in charge of that? 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q Specifically what positions were 22 you in charge of filling? 1 A I filled -- I found a volunteer. I 2 found Linda Tripp, and there was another 3 person in our office that I did not find and 4 Steve Neuwirth found him -- I believe Steve 5 did. 6 Q What was the volunteer's name? 7 A Marlene McDonald. 8 Q You knew her from before, right? 9 A No, I did not. 10 Q What was she procured to do? 11 A Xeroxing, odd chores like that. 12 Q How did you find Linda Tripp? 13 A During May one of our detailees 14 wanted to take a vacation. She had been 15 working night and day before I got there, and 16 she wanted to go on vacation. We asked to 17 have a temp assigned to us, and Linda Tripp 18 was assigned, and Debbie Byrd -- they both 19 worked there intermittently during the 20 vacation period. 21 Q Who's Debbie Byrd? 22 A She's a floater -- she was a 1 floater at The White House, too. 2 Q B-y-r-d? 3 A B-y-r-d. 4 Q Do you know where she is today? 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q Is she still at The White House? 7 A She probably would be, but I have 8 no knowledge of that directly. 9 Q So they brought in Linda Tripp on a 10 temporary basis? 11 A Yes, as a floater. 12 Q Right. Did you know where she came 13 from? 14 A The correspondence office. 15 Q Of the President's office? 16 A I guess so. It's called The White 17 House correspondence office. 18 Q Did you specifically request Linda 19 Tripp? 20 A No, I didn't. 21 Q So who did you call to get her to 22 be sent over or who were you in contact with? 1 A I talked to somebody from the 2 correspondence office because that's how I 3 found out that there were some floaters, and 4 so that's how we got -- 5 Q You wanted to get the best people 6 in that job that you could find, correct? 7 A Mm-hmm. 8 Q You asked the person in the 9 correspondence office, send me the best 10 person you have, correct? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't think I said 13 that. I mean, I asked for somebody to help, 14 somebody competent to help us out. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q They sent you Linda Tripp? 17 A They sent me Linda and Debbie Byrd. 18 Q Did the person in the 19 correspondence office say, we're sending you 20 some good people? 21 A I don't recall but I'm not denying 22 that, you know, that they didn't say that. 1 Q So Linda Tripp arrived on the 2 scene, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What did you assign her to do? 5 A Actually, I was thrilled because 6 she takes shorthand, and Mr. Nussbaum likes 7 to dictate a lot, and she was able to take 8 dictation, and that's mainly what she did was 9 letters and speeches and correspondence, 10 things of that nature. 11 Q Do you take shorthand? 12 A Mm-hmm. 13 Q Aren't many people any more that 14 do? 15 A No, there aren't, but I wouldn't 16 give it up. It's a very good skill. 17 Q Yeah. Did there come a point in 18 time when Linda Tripp's position in The White 19 House Counsel's Office became permanent? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How did that come about? 22 A I identified -- of the two floaters 1 that were sent to us, I was thrilled that 2 Linda knew shorthand and Debbie didn't, and 3 Linda had an institutional knowledge of The 4 White House. She was very helpful in telling 5 us information, and I recommended that we try 6 to hire her. 7 Q I take it you interviewed Linda 8 Tripp before you made that final 9 recommendation to hire her? 10 A She had been working there as a 11 floater on and off. 12 Q How long did she work as a floater 13 before you recommended that she be hired 14 permanently? 15 A She was there for a couple of weeks 16 in May, and then, you know, as floaters might 17 have gone back -- I can't remember -- 18 intermittently she may have come in for a day 19 or two here, or it could have been Debbie 20 Byrd that came in, but I preferred Linda 21 because she took shorthand. 22 Q You found her to be very competent? 1 A Yes. 2 Q During that period, you never heard 3 her complain about anyone? 4 A No. 5 Q You didn't hear her say anything 6 negative about anyone or anything in the 7 Clinton Administration? 8 A Oh, yes. 9 Q During that two weeks? 10 A No, not during that two weeks. 11 Q Because you wouldn't have 12 recommended her if you had heard anything 13 negative? 14 A No. 15 Q You wanted to hire a loyal person, 16 correct? 17 A That wasn't really -- I didn't know 18 whether Linda -- I knew that Linda was a 19 holdover, and I didn't ask her, you know, 20 what her political leanings were. I just 21 wanted somebody competent to work in the 22 office and help us out, and loyalty would be 1 strong on my list, yes. 2 Q Your impression of her was that she 3 was loyal, having worked with her for two 4 weeks? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I didn't have any 8 reason not to. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You didn't hear anything from 11 anyone else in The White House that she was 12 not loyal, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Did you ask to see her personnel 15 file before you made the decision to 16 recommend her? 17 A No, but I did interview two 18 people -- I mean, I had appointments with two 19 people in personnel and in White House 20 correspondence that I talked to. 21 Q About her? 22 A Yes. 1 Q Who did you talk to about her? 2 A One person's name was Doug. He's 3 not there anymore. His name is something 4 like F-r-e-r-y. 5 Q Doug Frery, do you know where he 6 is? 7 A No, I'm sorry. I don't know. 8 Q What did Doug tell you about Linda 9 Tripp? 10 A He said that she had been there for 11 a while and that she probably knew her way 12 around. 13 Q That she was a loyal person? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that 16 that came up. I just recall that he said 17 that she had been there quite -- she had been 18 there for come time, and she had a lot of 19 knowledge about The White House and I would 20 probably be -- she would probably be very 21 helpful to our office. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q And you asked her whether she was 2 reliable? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 5 Leading questions. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You asked her the normal questions 8 that you ask people to find out if they'd be 9 good employees, didn't you? 10 A Actually, it was a he, not a she. 11 Q He? 12 A Yeah. 13 Q And in your opinion reliability's 14 an important characteristic, correct? 15 A Mm-hmm. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. FLINT: Again, objection to 18 leading. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Getting to work on time? 21 A Mm-hmm. 22 Q Being honest? 1 A Mm-hmm. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: I just want to ask 5 the witness if she could just say yes or no 6 specifically because the court reporter can't 7 pick up nods. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Being loyal? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Not talking about fellow employees? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Not gossiping? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Doing your work timely and 16 efficiently? 17 A Yes. 18 Q So those are the things that you 19 considered to be important for hiring someone 20 for a job, correct? 21 A Yeah, they would be important, but 22 I don't know that I went over those job 1 specifications in the order that you 2 mentioned. 3 Q But you did go over these kinds of 4 specifications with Mr. Frery, correct? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm not -- I really 7 don't remember what I went over with him, so 8 I'm not -- you know, I'm not arguing with 9 you, but I just don't remember what -- 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Well, what I'm saying is that those 12 are the kinds of things, given your 13 experience of what you considered to be the 14 characteristics of a good employee, that you 15 would have likely gone over with him? 16 A Yes. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to form, 19 leading. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q And he didn't tell you anything 1 negative about Linda Tripp, did he? 2 A No. 3 Q In fact, everything he said was 4 positive? 5 A Actually, he didn't -- 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: He didn't know Linda 8 very well personally, but he -- actually, she 9 had done some temp work in the personnel 10 office for him, and that's what his exposure 11 to Linda was and he said that she did a good 12 job. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q He didn't express anything 15 negative, correct? 16 A No. 17 Q And who else did you talk to about 18 Linda Tripp? 19 A Somebody in the correspondence 20 office. Her name was Maureen. 21 Q Do you remember what her last name 22 is? 1 A No, I'm sorry, I don't. 2 Q Is she still there? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q Do you know where she is today? 5 A No, I don't. 6 Q And you asked many of the same 7 kinds of questions of Maureen that you asked 8 of Mr. Frery, in all likelihood? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You also asked Marlene about Linda 13 Tripp? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q And you wanted to know if she was a 16 good employee? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q And Marlene told you that she was a 21 good employee? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 A She said as far as she knew she 4 was. 5 Q And she didn't say anything 6 negative about Linda Tripp? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you ask anyone else about Linda 9 Tripp? 10 A I don't think so. 11 Q Did Linda Tripp herself give you 12 any references? 13 A No, I don't recall that she did. 14 Q So when you recommended Linda Tripp 15 to be hired permanently it was your belief 16 that she was going to be a good employee 17 working in that job? 18 A Yes. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q And that she would be reliable? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A Yes. 5 Q And timely? 6 A Remember that we had worked 7 together, too, so, you know. 8 Q Right. So all the characteristics 9 I went over you thought you had in Linda 10 Tripp? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And when did she come to work in 13 the outer office? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: Mid-July. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q And who was she to work for? 18 A She was going to work on 19 correspondence for Mr. Nussbaum. 20 Q Was she going to work under your 21 direction, or did she have a parallel 22 position to you? 1 A No, she would work under my 2 direction. 3 Q And so you were her supervisor? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And in addition to working on 6 correspondence was there anything else that 7 she was going to work on? 8 A She assisted when she retyped 9 speeches for Mr. Nussbaum. She handled the 10 filing of the correspondence that she 11 generated. I can't remember any other 12 specific duties. 13 Q Did there come a point in time when 14 her job responsibilities changed during her 15 period in The White House? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And when did they change? 18 A When I went over to OEOB. 19 Q And why did you go to OEOB? 20 A Because my -- initially when I went 21 to The White House I was only going to stay 22 for, like, six months, and then I wanted to 1 pursue getting another job, and I found that 2 I couldn't look for another job when I was 3 tied to the West Wing and things were very 4 tense in our office. We were getting -- a 5 lot of press was coming down. It was shortly 6 before Mr. Nussbaum resigned, and I needed to 7 find another job. 8 Q Did you ask Mr. Nussbaum to give 9 you permission to leave? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And when was that? 12 A Actually, I started, I believe, in 13 November asking if I could go over, and it 14 didn't happen until mid-February. 15 Q Of what year? 16 A '94. 17 Q Specifically, what did you tell 18 Mr. Nussbaum about why you wanted to leave? 19 A I told him that it was time for me 20 to find another job, that I couldn't do it in 21 the West Wing, that they were terribly 22 understaffed in OEOB, and I could help them 1 out while I was looking for a job. 2 Q Did you have somebody in mind that 3 you were going to work with at OEOB? 4 A I was going to go to the Counsel's 5 Office in Bill Kennedy's office. 6 Q And work for Bill Kennedy? 7 A Work in that -- for anybody who 8 needed help in the Counsel's Office in OEOB. 9 Q And your reasons were that you were 10 overworked working for Mr. Nussbaum because 11 he was under staffed? 12 A No, I didn't say that. 13 Q Too much pressure? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 15 MR. FLINT: Objection. Improper 16 characterization. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't say 18 that. That was not my answer. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Maybe I have it reversed. They 21 were understaffed at OEOB? 22 A Correct. 1 Q But Mr. Nussbaum was a friend of 2 yours? 3 A Right. 4 Q Correct? And why is it that you 5 wanted to leave your friend to go work for 6 somebody else? 7 A Because I had to find another job. 8 When I went to The White House, it was only 9 for a short period of time, six months at 10 most, and I took a very large pay cut to go 11 there, and I had to move on to try to find a 12 job that could pay me more. 13 Q And the job at OEOB paid more? 14 A No. No. No. I went to OEOB 15 because that would free me up to look for a 16 job in other departments, et cetera. 17 Q Why would that free you up to look 18 for a job in other departments? 19 A Because it wasn't the constant -- 20 it wasn't the constant telephones, calendar 21 requests. You could leave your desk more 22 freely than you could if you were in the West 1 Wing. 2 Q Working for Mr. Nussbaum was more 3 pressure-intense? 4 A It was more -- yes. 5 Q And it filled up your entire day? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q And it was something that affected 10 your mental frame of mind? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q It was stressful? 16 A It was it was pressurized, yes. 17 Q Very pressurized, correct? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't think it was 21 -- towards the end it was very -- there were 22 a lot of things happening. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q It wasn't fun? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't say it 5 was fun. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q And it wasn't fun because of all 8 the stuff in and around Mr. Nussbaum? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I didn't consider 12 that fun. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q The controversy that was swirling 15 around him? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. I'm 18 not sure it's a question. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Correct? 21 A I'm sorry. What was -- 22 Q The unfun stuff was the controversy 1 swirling around Mr. Nussbaum? 2 A That was one of the unfun things. 3 Q And were there other unfun things? 4 A Yes, my relationship with Linda 5 Tripp was very unpleasant, and it was not a 6 nice place to work any more. It was not an 7 enjoyable place. 8 Q So did you transfer primarily to 9 get away from Linda Tripp? Did you ask to 10 transfer primarily to get away from Linda 11 Tripp? 12 A No. 13 Q That wasn't the major reason? 14 A No. It was certainly a 15 contributing factor. 16 Q And what had occurred in terms of 17 your working relationship with Linda Tripp 18 that made it unpleasant? 19 A I recounted earlier the story about 20 throwing my belongings all over the place, 21 and other things that happened were people 22 were coming to me from other offices and 1 telling me that Linda was saying that our job 2 -- that our office was crazy, negative -- 3 saying negative things about the people on 4 the staff. 5 Q What did she say? 6 A I don't know. People were just -- 7 I can't remember. I can't recall what they 8 were saying, but people were just saying you 9 people there better watch your backs. 10 Linda's a loose cannon or something to that 11 effect. 12 Q They were worried that she might 13 tell people what was going on in the office? 14 A There wasn't -- 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A There wasn't anything going on. It 20 was things that she was making up. 21 Q What was she making up? 22 A I don't know that I have specifics. 1 I think it was more the way that she was 2 back-stabbing the employees against each 3 other and characterizing the different people 4 who worked in the office so that they would 5 not be united. They would more or less be 6 against each other. 7 Q Who told you she was doing this? 8 A The people that she was doing it 9 to, people that, you know, I would meet 10 outside. People would come up to me. 11 Q Who were they? Names. 12 A I don't know specific names. 13 Q Did they tell you she couldn't be 14 trusted because she had worked for the Bush 15 Administration? 16 A No. 17 Q Had you observed yourself Linda 18 Tripp being a back-stabber, someone could 19 couldn't be trusted? 20 A Yes. 21 Q While you worked in the outer 22 office? 1 A Yes. 2 Q Tell me everything that happened 3 that led you to that belief. 4 A There were occasions when Linda 5 would attack one of our co-workers, and there 6 were several occasions when I walked up and 7 heard her telling unkind stories about 8 co-workers, and I confronted her on them, and 9 I asked her why she was doing that, why she 10 was behaving that way, that it didn't -- it 11 wasn't very nice, and Linda said that she 12 wasn't a nice person and that I should not 13 ever forget that. 14 Q Which co-workers was she 15 bad-mouthing? 16 A Deborah Gorham, Marlene, Tom. 17 Q What specifically did she say about 18 Deborah Gorham? 19 A It wasn't specifically that -- 20 specific things that she said. It was more 21 things that she did to try to provoke 22 Deborah. 1 Q Well, tell me one thing she said 2 about Deborah Gorham that was back-stabbing. 3 A That she was incompetent, she 4 didn't know what she was doing, and I 5 remember some people stopped me and said 6 Linda said things are going like this 7 (indicating) in your office to intimate that 8 it was crazy, and I called her on that. 9 Q Who was that person who said things 10 are going crazy in your office? 11 A Two people said that. 12 Q Who said that? 13 A I'm not going to mention names. 14 Q Well, you have to. You're under 15 oath. 16 MR. GREEN: She doesn't have to 17 because she's under oath. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there's court 19 process. I'll add that, too. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Can you tell me those names, 22 please? 1 A I can tell you first names. I 2 don't know last names. 3 Q Well, you do know the last names, 4 don't you? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 6 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q What are their first names? 10 A One person's name is Judy, and I 11 don't believe that she's any longer there. 12 Q Do you know where she is? 13 A No. I'm sorry, I don't. 14 Q Who's the other person? 15 A It was somebody in one of the 16 administrative offices because there were 17 some problems with some travel forms, and 18 Linda was talking to the guy and she 19 apologized for the lateness of the travel 20 forms because she said that we had 21 incompetent staff that didn't know how to put 22 travel forms together. And the guy later 1 told me and I don't remember his name and 2 then there was another person who mentioned 3 something else, just that people thought the 4 office was -- Linda had said that the office 5 was woo-hoo, like that. 6 Q Woo-hoo? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q What does "woo-hoo" mean? 9 A You know, like flaky, that -- 10 Q Incompetent? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q Now, you at that point had been 13 working how many years, correct? How many 14 years had you been working professionally? 15 A Over 30. 16 Q Now, based on your experience is it 17 helpful or unhelpful when an employee makes a 18 statement that is critical of the way an 19 office operates based on his or her 20 observations? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 22 relevancy. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A I'm sorry? 5 Q Well, when Linda made these that 6 comments that people weren't competent she 7 was making work-related comments, correct? 8 A But not to the people who could do 9 anything about the office. She was making 10 comments to just anybody. 11 Q But she made comments to you to 12 that effect. You just said that? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Correct? 16 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. I 17 think that's a mischaracterization. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: No, what you're doing 20 is a mischaracterization. 21 THE WITNESS: No, what I believe I 22 said is that I confronted her with -- 1 MR. GREEN: I'm sorry, what was 2 that comment, Mr. Klayman? You said that -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't 4 interrupt my deposition. 5 MR. GREEN: I'm going to interrupt 6 it because you made a comment here that you 7 directed towards us that I didn't understand. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: We have one person 9 objecting. Don't interrupt this deposition. 10 Theatrics are not welcome. 11 MR. GREEN: It is not about 12 theatrics. You've taken us to task for 13 making inappropriate sidebar comments and I'm 14 taking you to task for the same activity. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: You can take yourself 16 to task but do it somewhere else. 17 Can you read back the question? 18 (The reporter read the record as 19 requested.) 20 THE WITNESS: And I said what I 21 thought I told you was that I confronted 22 Linda with comments other people had told me 1 or that I had overheard that she said. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did she confirm to you that she 4 said them? 5 A She told me she was not a nice 6 person. 7 Q Did she tell you that she had made 8 those criticisms about the way the office 9 operated? 10 A No, she was making the criticisms 11 about people in general, and I asked her why 12 it was necessary for her to say things to 13 people outside of the office rather than 14 bring her complaints within the office where 15 we could do something about them. And she 16 said that my problem was I was too nice and 17 she wasn't and I shouldn't forget that. 18 Q And what, if anything, did you do 19 to look into Linda Tripp's complaints about 20 competence? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: I didn't think that 1 they were valid. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And what was the basis of your not 4 thinking that they were valid? 5 A My observation. 6 Q So you think everything she said 7 had no merit in terms of her evaluation of 8 how the office was running? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I 12 said -- correct me if I'm wrong, but I 13 thought that I said it was her criticism of 14 people who worked in the office rather than 15 how the office was going. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did you ever hear her say anything 18 about the personal lives of people that 19 worked in the office up to that conversation 20 that you had with her when you confronted 21 her? 22 A I don't think so but I don't 1 remember. 2 Q So all of the comments were 3 work-related? 4 A They were people-related. 5 Q And also work-related? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, actually, 9 competency would go to work-related. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And one of the people who Linda 12 Tripp complained about was you, correct? 13 A Mm-hmm. 14 Q In fact, she was telling people 15 that you were incompetent? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q And she was telling people that you 21 were not sufficiently attentive to what was 22 going on beneath you, correct? 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I didn't hear a 4 comment like that. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did she express any opinion as to 7 your intelligence? 8 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: No, to my face she 10 would say one thing and behind my back it was 11 quite something else. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Behind your back she told people 14 you weren't intelligent? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Correct? 18 A That I was -- probably I guess 19 incompetent and unintelligent. 20 Q Stupid? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know if she 1 said "stupid," but it fits right in there. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And you resented that? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: Didn't make me happy. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You resented it? 9 A Yes, I did, and it hurt me very 10 much because I had hired her and gone to bat, 11 and I thought she wasn't behaving in a 12 professional manner. 13 Q You thought she was a turncoat? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I would say that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Because she owed you her job? 19 A Oh, no. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Now, what other things occurred in 1 the office concerning Linda Tripp? Was that 2 all there was before you asked to transfer to 3 the OEOB? 4 A No. 5 Q When you confronted Linda Tripp, 6 what, if anything, did you tell her? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q I take it you told her something. 10 A I told her that I had been 11 overhearing comments that she had made about 12 our office, and I didn't think it was a wise 13 thing to do, and if she had complaints why 14 couldn't she bring them to the office per se. 15 Q Did you tell her to stop? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did she stop? 18 A No. 19 Q How do you know she didn't stop? 20 A Because I heard the same things 21 over and over again, and I walked up one time 22 when she was telling somebody a tale, and I 1 asked her if she could come outside and we 2 could talk about it and I confronted her. 3 Q Was the tale about you? 4 A No. 5 Q Was the tale about somebody else? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What was the tale? 8 A It was about Deb. 9 Q And what did she say? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I think we 11 should break for a moment. Can we break for 12 a moment? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: On what basis? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: The basis is that we 15 have a court order and I'd like to make sure 16 what the testimony is before I know whether 17 it's prohibited by the court order. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: It doesn't deal with 19 Deborah Gorham. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: She just said Deborah 21 Gorham. The court order deals with Deborah 22 Gorham, and she just identified Deborah 1 Gorham. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, take a 3 break. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 5 video record at 1:38. 6 (Recess) 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 8 video record at 1:49. 9 MR. FLINT: Mr. Klayman, Ms. Pond 10 has one clarification she'd like to make for 11 the record. 12 THE WITNESS: One of the phrases 13 that you used about Linda was "turncoat," and 14 I just wanted to make sure you didn't think 15 that I was referring to her being a turncoat 16 against the Administration. It was me and 17 other members of the staff that I was 18 referring to, not the Administration. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: She can go ahead and 20 answer the question. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the 22 question? 1 (The reporter read the record as 2 requested.) 3 THE WITNESS: The conversation I 4 overheard was at a party, and when I walked 5 up to this group of people Linda was saying 6 that Deb Gorham was dumb as dirt, that she 7 was incompetent, that she was losing it, and 8 I asked her if she could come out on the 9 porch with me and we did. 10 And I asked her why she had to say 11 things like that to people, that it wasn't -- 12 it seemed like she couldn't stop at just 13 making comments. It's like she has to try to 14 break people, and that's what I said. I 15 said, you know, if somebody is fragile or if 16 they've been through an experience such as 17 Vince's death, you don't have to break them. 18 You know, they're sad and they'll recover, 19 but you don't have to say mean things about 20 them. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q And what did Linda say? 1 A She said that I was an asshole and 2 that my problem was that I was too nice, and 3 she repeated that she was not a nice person, 4 and I said when you say that it's as if 5 because you said that that you now feel you 6 have carte blanche to do and say whatever you 7 want and she said that is correct and never 8 forget it. 9 Q Have you ever used an off-color 10 word in your life? 11 A Oh, yeah, mm-hmm. 12 Q Like "asshole"? 13 A Mm-hmm. 14 Q Have you used worse than that? 15 A I'm sure I have. 16 Q Now, I take it there came a point 17 in time when you did transfer over to the 18 OEOB. Was it shortly after that? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: OEOB, right? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: No, it was a couple 1 of months after that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q And Linda Tripp assumed your job 4 for Bernie Nussbuam, correct? 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q So Linda Tripp replaced you? 7 A Right. 8 Q Now, in fact you didn't go 9 voluntarily to the OEOB. Bernie Nussbuam 10 sent you over there so he could replace you 11 with Linda Tripp, correct? 12 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: No, I asked to go 15 over there starting in November. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Now, you were aware before you 18 transferred to the OEOB that Linda Tripp was 19 going to replace you, correct? 20 A Yeah. I mean, that would have made 21 sense. 22 Q Did you go warn Bernie Nussbuam 1 about Linda Tripp before he had her replace 2 you? 3 A No. 4 Q And Bernie was a friend, right? 5 A Mm-hmm. 6 Q So you sent this mean and nasty 7 person to go work for Bernie Nussbuam? 8 A She was already there and she was 9 only working -- she only worked for him for a 10 week and a half. 11 Q Now, did you ever talk to Bernard 12 Nussbuam about Linda Tripp? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And what did you tell him? Well, 15 let me ask you when these conversations 16 occurred. 17 A Probably in the fall of '93 and 18 winter of '94. 19 Q And what did you tell him? 20 A That we weren't getting along and 21 that for that and a number of other reasons I 22 would like to go across the street and work 1 and Deb Gorham had left. 2 Q And you told Nussbuam that Linda 3 Tripp's a very destructive person? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I 6 used those words. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You warned Nussbuam about Tripp, 9 though, didn't you? 10 A No, I don't think that it was a 11 warning. It was that we weren't getting 12 along. The office was tense. It was time 13 for me to move. 14 Q Now, you felt a responsibility to 15 Bernard Nussbuam, didn't you? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you felt a responsibility to 18 the office, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And you wouldn't have wanted to 21 leave by having someone take your supervisory 22 role who was bad-mouthing the staff, correct? 1 A Correct. 2 Q So did you, therefore, tell Bernard 3 Nussbuam about Linda Tripp's proclivities? 4 A I don't believe that I spelled out. 5 You see, in the situation that we were in, 6 there were so many things coming at you one, 7 two, three, that you didn't have time to go 8 in and tell about petty squabbles here, petty 9 squabbles there, and so I don't believe that 10 I went in and bent his ear about Linda Tripp. 11 Q So when you left to go to the OEOB 12 in your own mind you thought you were leaving 13 behind a potential disaster, correct? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 16 Mischaracterization. 17 THE WITNESS: Actually, it was 18 already a potential disaster because that was 19 at the time that the press was coming down. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I'm talking about the disaster of 22 Linda Tripp, the destructive, nasty, angry, 1 mean person that you knew you were leaving 2 behind. 3 MR. FLINT: Is there a question at 4 this point? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 A I really don't know what your 8 question is. I'm sorry. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: See, that's an 10 example of an inappropriate objection. I'd 11 like this certified. This is a way that you 12 tell the witness how to respond, Mr. Flint, 13 and it's inappropriate. My question was 14 pretty clear but I'll ask it again. 15 MR. GREEN: Mr. Klayman, I want you 16 to know for the record that you asked a 17 question on top of a pending answer from 18 Ms. Pond. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to note for 20 the record that one counsel's supposed to 21 make objections, not two. I'm not supposed 22 to be double-teamed. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So when you left the employment of 3 Bernie Nussbuam as his executive assistant 4 and you went over to the OEOB you believed in 5 your own mind that leaving Linda Tripp to 6 take your job was going to be disaster for 7 Bernie Nussbuam, didn't you? 8 A Actually, no, because perhaps the 9 situation would have resolved itself to some 10 degree if I weren't there because the 11 friction between Linda and I wouldn't be 12 present. 13 Q So you viewed the problems as being 14 the result of the personal animosity between 15 you and Linda? 16 A Not all of the problems, no, but -- 17 Q Most of them? 18 A A lot of it was our animosity. 19 Q Now, when were you reassigned to 20 OEOB? 21 A Approximately the middle of 22 February. 1 Q And you were assigned to 2 Mr. Kennedy? 3 A To that suite. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Was there someone that you were 7 supposed to work with directly? 8 A Yeah. Bill, Beth, anybody in the 9 contiguous area that needed help. 10 Q What was your job title? 11 A I think it was staff assistant or 12 administrative assistant or -- not real sure. 13 Q And what were your duties and 14 responsibilities? 15 A I was the administrative contact 16 for the Counsel's Office in the West Wing and 17 in OEOB, and I worked on vetting issues, 18 setting up files, the preliminary form 19 letters that you send out on potential 20 appointees. 21 Q And specifically who told you what 22 your duties were going to be? 1 A I'm not -- well, Bill, Stephen, the 2 office was already flowing, and I was coming 3 in to step in and help out wherever they 4 needed it. 5 Q Did some people sit you down, such 6 as those you've mentioned, Bill Kennedy, 7 Stephen Neuwirth -- 8 A No, Steve Waudby. 9 Q Did they sit you down and say here 10 are your duties and show you what it is you 11 needed to do? 12 A Well, they didn't sit me down and 13 show me. We sat down and talked about it. 14 Q Did you get a pay rise in the 15 transfer? 16 A I got a pay raise in December. 17 Q After you'd already transferred 18 there? 19 A No, right before I transferred. 20 Q So the transfer had nothing to do 21 with your pay raise? 22 A No. 1 Q And did you interview for the job 2 over at the OEOB? 3 A No, I already knew all the people 4 there. 5 Q So it was just a transfer? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And what did these people tell you 8 your job was? 9 A Helping out on vetting, answering 10 the telephones, any special projects that 11 needed to be done, just clerical work to help 12 out because they didn't have very much of a 13 staff. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take lunch 15 here. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: How long do you need 17 for your meeting? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: It's out of the 19 office, so I should be back within the hour. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: So start up again at 21 3:00? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 2 video record at 2:02. 3 (Whereupon, at 2:02 p.m., a 4 luncheon recess was taken.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (3:12 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 BESTSY POND 5 was recalled as the witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 9 CONTINUED 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 11 video record at 3:12. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: Before we begin, I 13 would just like to note for the record that 14 counsel for the parties and for Mr. Nussbaum, 15 and I believe I can speak for counsel for 16 Mr. Livingstone, have agreed that should it 17 become necessary for us to do 18 cross-examination, in that event, potential 19 redirect of Mr. Livingstone, we will 20 reconvene Mr. Livingstone's deposition on the 21 afternoon of June 8, Tuesday I believe, 22 June 8. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Okay. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Ms. Pond, when we left off, I 5 believe we were discussing your beginning to 6 work in the OEOB. Do you remember that? 7 A Mm-hmm. 8 Q We were discussing what you were 9 told about what your duties and 10 responsibilities were going to be. Were you 11 provided any kind of written procedures 12 manual to tell you what your duties and 13 responsibilities were going to be? 14 A No, but I was given some written 15 instructions on the vetting process, how to 16 prepare, if letters -- they were divided into 17 categories of -- 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm sorry. The 19 microphone, I think, is turned off. 20 THE WITNESS: There were written 21 instructions on how to proceed on vetting 22 nominations, if they were for Senate 1 approval, if they were for boards, and 2 cabinet level appointments, and each one 3 would require a set of documents to go with 4 it. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Those written instructions were 7 given to you by who? 8 A Steven Martin. 9 Q These were written instructions 10 that had been prepared by The White House 11 during the Clinton Administration? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure who 14 prepared them. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Were they in a book form? 17 A No, they were stapled. 18 Q Do you still have a copy of those 19 written instructions? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q About how thick were they? 22 A Maybe ten pages. 1 Q They had people's names on those 2 instructions? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you read those instructions? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did people explain those 7 instructions to you orally? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Who explained them to you orally? 10 A I believe Steven and I were going 11 over the duties, the general duties that 12 needed to be done and how they were -- how 13 you go about it, what needed to be done when. 14 Q Did anyone else go over them with 15 you? 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q What was Mr. Waudby's position at 18 the time you went over them with him? 19 A He was a staff assistant. 20 Q He was a relatively low-level 21 employee, correct? 22 A He was a staff assistant. 1 Q Who was he staff assistant to? 2 A The Office of the Counsel. 3 Q Was he assigned to any particular 4 person? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q Did he tell you who had given him 7 the written instructions? 8 A No. 9 Q What did he tell you those 10 instructions were? In other words, describe 11 for us, in as much specificity, what you 12 learned from the written instructions in 13 talking to Mr. Waudby. 14 A If the particular appointments were 15 broken down into categories, and if they were 16 one category, then you sent out letters -- 17 you sent out a certain set of letters, and if 18 they were another kind, you sent out a 19 different kind of letters for information, or 20 confirmation, or the government Ethics Board, 21 the instructions which went where. 22 Q That's all you remember? 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you remember what the categories 3 were of people who received different types 4 of letters? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: The nominations were 7 cabinet nominations, as best I remember, 8 Senate confirmation, like assistant secretary 9 level, and then there's something called 10 boards and commissions. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was it told to you how you were 13 going to get the names of the people that 14 would receive these letters? 15 A I think -- yeah. 16 Q Where would you get those names? 17 A I believe that they would come in 18 from the Office of Presidential Personnel. 19 Q Who told you that was going to 20 happen? 21 A It may have been in the 22 instructions, or Steven might told me how 1 that was going to come in. 2 Q Did you later learn how those names 3 came in? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Are you talking about Personnel 7 Security? 8 A No, white House Personnel. 9 Q Did you learn more about how those 10 names were going to get to you later on, as 11 you worked in that office? 12 A Sure, I became more familiar with 13 the routine. 14 Q At some point, did you learn what, 15 if any, responsibility William Kennedy had in 16 the clearance process? 17 A I'm not sure of what his specific 18 position would have been, but I believe that 19 he would have reviewed nominations, once they 20 were complete. 21 Q Do you know whether he had a role 22 in reviewing files concerning their security 1 clearances? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I really don't know. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you know what William Kennedy's 6 title was when you worked in the OEOB? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What was that? 9 A Deputy White House counsel. 10 Q Do you know what his duties and 11 responsibilities were? 12 A He was pretty much in charge of 13 vetting. 14 Q Did anyone ever tell you what 15 vetting was? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you learn what vetting was? 18 A I think vetting is different things 19 to different people. 20 Q I'm talking about the context of 21 reviewing job candidates, not taking your dog 22 to the vet. 1 A Did anyone ever tell me that, or -- 2 Q Yes, did you learn what vetting 3 was, when you worked in The White House? 4 A I formed my own opinion of what 5 vetting was. 6 Q What did you form and how did you 7 form it? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Applicants came in 10 and -- applicants were chosen. They filled 11 out the application form, and then relevant 12 checks were done with IRS and various places, 13 and then they were passed on to another 14 level. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What level was that? 17 A I think that -- I wasn't familiar 18 with that part of it, but I can only say that 19 I would assume that that would be to check 20 out what was on their security forms, but 21 that's just a guess. 22 Q When you applications came in, 1 where did they come in? Do you know? 2 A No. 3 Q When the applications went out from 4 your office, do you know where they went? 5 A What do you mean, when they went 6 out? 7 Q Let me change that. You don't know 8 where the applications arrived when they came 9 in. What happened to the applications after 10 that? 11 A We filed them by color. 12 Q The applications that you're 13 talking about came from the FBI? 14 A No. 15 Q Where did they come from? 16 A The applicants themselves. They 17 were 86s that they filled out when they were 18 interviewed for the position. 19 Q How did they come to your office? 20 A I guess from the Office of 21 Personnel, White House Personnel. 22 Q Do you know of any applications 1 coming from the Office of Personnel Security? 2 A No. 3 Q Do you know of anything that ever 4 came over to the OEOB where you, and 5 Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Foster worked from the 6 Office of Personnel Security? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q While you worked there. 10 A I'm sorry. Where are we now? 11 Q You're working in the OEOB with 12 Bill Kennedy and Vince Foster, right? 13 A No. Vince Foster didn't work in 14 the -- 15 Q I'm sorry. With Bill Kennedy. 16 A Right, I'm with Bill Kennedy, but 17 where did you say Vince Foster was? 18 Q Forget about that. You're working 19 with Bill Kennedy? 20 A Right. 21 Q West Wing, right? 22 A No. 1 Q East Wing? 2 A No. 3 Q What wing? 4 A I was working at the OEOB. 5 Q Were there ever any materials that 6 came over from the Office of Personnel 7 Security? 8 A There were deliveries from 9 Personnel Security. I recognized people that 10 were coming from the office, but they didn't 11 deliver packages to me. 12 Q Who did they deliver those packages 13 to? 14 A I think directly to Mr. Kennedy. 15 Q Do you know what those packages 16 were? 17 A No, I don't. 18 Q Did you ever ask? 19 A No, I didn't. I think they were 20 labeled "Eyes Only." 21 Q They were handled only by 22 Mr. Kennedy? 1 A To my knowledge. 2 Q Did Mr. Kennedy take those 3 materials and file them? 4 A I don't know what he did with them. 5 Q Did you ever see him creating file 6 folders to put documents in? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you ever see him putting 9 materials that he got from the Office of 10 Personnel Security in a safe? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you ever see him doing labels 13 for files, sitting at a typewriter? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you ever see Mr. Kennedy with 16 files in his office? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What kind of files did he have in 19 his office? 20 A Manila file folders, I remember 21 seeing on tables. That's all I can remember, 22 that they were manila file folders. 1 Q Did he tell you what was in the 2 manila file folders? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you know what was in the manila 5 file folders? 6 A No. 7 Q At any time? 8 A No, I didn't know what was in the 9 file folders. They could have been the 10 materials that we worked on. I just don't 11 know. 12 Q Where did you sit in relation to 13 Mr. Kennedy's office? 14 A Outside. When you open the door to 15 the suite, I sat on the left-hand side. 16 MR. FITTON: I'm going to show you 17 a chart. I'll have this marked as Exhibit 3. 18 (Pond Deposition Exhibit No. 3 19 was marked for identification.) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Have you ever seen this document 22 before, Ms. Pond? 1 A No, I haven't. 2 Q Does this roughly approximate the 3 offices in the suite where you worked with 4 Mr. Kennedy? 5 A I believe so, yes. 6 Q Is the configuration of 7 Mr. Kennedy's office accurate in terms of 8 where the desk is, and the conference table, 9 and couches, and tables, and whatnot? 10 A As far as I remember, yes. 11 Q Where did you sit? 12 A Where it says my name. 13 Q Is that below where it says -- is 14 that Pond? 15 A Looks like it to me. 16 Q Right below there, can you just put 17 an X next to that? X marks the spot. 18 Where you sat, you had a desk? 19 A Mm-hmm, yes. 20 Q You had a desktop computer? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Was that the computer that you 1 used? 2 A Yes. 3 Q When you left the office, was that 4 computer left behind? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did you take any disks or any kind 7 of recordations on that computer when you 8 left? 9 A No. 10 Q How did you store files on that 11 computer? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 MR. FLINT: Objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Or documents. 16 A They were saved in directories. 17 Q What software did you have on that 18 computer throughout the time that you worked 19 there? 20 A I think it was WordPerfect, like 3 21 or something like that. 22 Q Any other types of software? 1 A I don't know if Windows was on 2 there or not. I did not know how to use 3 Windows, so it could have been on there. 4 Q Was this the computer previously 5 used by Deborah Gorham? 6 A I'm really not sure. It was the 7 computer that was there when I arrived in the 8 office. 9 Q You don't know where it came from? 10 A No, I don't. 11 Q Did you find any files on that 12 computer? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: What do you mean, 15 files? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Was anything saved on the hard 18 drive? Did you find any files on the hard 19 drive when you got there, when you 20 transferred, took your job, sat at the desk 21 for the first time and thereafter? 22 A There were directories, different 1 directories that we saved letters under, the 2 form letters. 3 Q What different directories were 4 there? 5 A It was on -- the hard drive is the 6 C drive, and then if you had certain sort of 7 letters you were going to send out, you would 8 make a directory, and it might say Ethics, 9 and then all the ethics letters would be 10 under that, and then you could have another 11 directory that, you know, was for a different 12 kind of letter. 13 Q Were there any directories based 14 upon the vetting process? 15 A Not that I was aware of. 16 Q Where you put directories for 17 vetting issues? 18 A Just what I just explained. 19 Q You became aware that this computer 20 had a backup system at The White House? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 MR. FLINT: Objection to form and 1 lack of a predicate. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know that it 3 had a backup. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You never knew, one way or the 6 other, whether what you saved on a hard drive 7 was also saved on a backup system at The 8 White House? 9 A It makes sense that it was, but I 10 don't know that I -- I don't know that I was 11 specifically told that. I just -- it makes 12 sense that there was a backup system. 13 Q During the time that you worked 14 with Mr. Kennedy, he would sometimes give you 15 files when you were sitting at that desk? 16 A No. 17 Q Never gave you one file? 18 A Not that I recall. 19 Q During the time that you worked for 20 Mr. Kennedy at The White House, did he ever 21 ask you to put information on the computer? 22 A No, unless I did a letter or 1 something. 2 Q That's the only thing you ever put 3 on that computer, letters? 4 A I believe so, yes. 5 Q During the time that you worked in 6 that office, did anyone else ever give you 7 files? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Who gave you files? 10 A The vetters would bring files in, 11 and we would send out forms from those. The 12 files would have applications in them, then 13 you would send out from there tax forms and 14 the letter to the ethics offices, and that's 15 all I can remember. 16 Q Who were the vetters that brought 17 you files? 18 A There were two people, Edward or 19 Edgar, and I can't remember his last name, 20 and then there was a person named Cliff. 21 Q Cliff? 22 A Cliff. 1 Q Edgar and Cliff? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Where did they work? 4 A Down the hall. 5 Q Who did they work for? 6 A The White House Counsel's Office. 7 Q Do you know what their job 8 positions were? 9 A I'm sorry. I don't. 10 Q Do you know who they worked for at 11 The White House Counsel's Office? 12 A I'm sure they reported to Bill. 13 Q Bill Kennedy? 14 A Mm-hmm. 15 Q Why are you sure that they reported 16 to Bill Kennedy? 17 A Actually, that was presumptuous of 18 me. They worked with Bill. 19 Q You saw them frequently in the 20 presence of Bill? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Do you know specifically what they 1 were doing? 2 A No, I'm sorry; I don't. 3 Q They told you that the files they 4 gave you were vetting files? 5 A They never identified them as 6 vetting files. They just said these are 7 ready to go. 8 Q Did they tell you what they meant 9 by, these are ready to go? 10 A Well, I knew what they meant. You 11 know, it was time to do the follow-up 12 letters, the letters. 13 Q What did these files look like? 14 A They were manila file folders, as I 15 recall, and they were color coded as to 16 appointment. 17 Q Color coded as to appointment? 18 A I'm sorry. As to the level of 19 appointment, boards and commission, Senate 20 nominee. 21 Q Do you remember the colors for each 22 category? 1 A I remember red, and I remember 2 yellow, and I don't know which was which. 3 Q Did you ever look inside one of 4 these files? 5 A Yes, I worked from those files. 6 Q What kind of information was in 7 those files? 8 A The Form 86 and copies of whatever 9 form requests we had sent out, like letters 10 to -- 11 Q Did you ever see any documents in 12 that file that referenced the Department of 13 Justice? 14 A No. 15 Q FBI? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know who brought the Eyes 18 Only packages to Mr. Kennedy? 19 A I think that sometimes Mary would 20 bring them up, or Lisa, or anyone from The 21 White House Security Office. 22 Q Who was Mary? 1 A I don't remember her last name. 2 Q Are you talking about Mari, Mari 3 Anderson? 4 A Mary, I don't know her last name. 5 Q Lisa, do you know who that was? 6 A Lisa was in the security office. 7 It started with a "W." I can't remember. 8 Q What did those files look like on 9 the outside? 10 A They were envelopes. I really 11 don't know if they were files or not. They 12 were envelopes that were sealed, and I saw 13 Eyes Only on them. 14 Q What color were the sealed 15 envelopes? 16 A Like a brownish gray. 17 Q Did they have markings on the 18 outside? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q How big were the envelopes? Were 21 they 8x10? 22 A I think that they were longer than 1 8 -- I thought maybe they were legal size, 2 but I -- that's what I remember. 3 Q Did you learn where those envelopes 4 came from? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever ask? 7 A No. 8 Q How were the envelopes sealed? 9 Were they closed? 10 A Oh, yes, they were closed. 11 Q How were they closed? 12 A I remember seeing tape on the back 13 of one. 14 Q Did they have any kind of little 15 string thing to close it? 16 A No, I didn't handle the documents, 17 but what I remember is they were in sealed 18 envelopes that were taped, no strings, no -- 19 I think you're speaking about interoffice 20 envelopes? 21 Q No, I'm not talking about anything 22 in particular. I'm just trying to refresh 1 your recollection. 2 A No, no strings. Tape. 3 Q Were they sealed always with tape, 4 or were they sealed with any kind of 5 moisturizing adhesive? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q In any event, these envelopes went 8 into William Kennedy's office directly? 9 A Yes. 10 Q They didn't pass through you? 11 A No. 12 Q They didn't pass through anybody 13 else, that you know of, that worked in the 14 office with Mr. Kennedy and you? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: Not that I know of. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Now, in the course of your duties 19 and responsibilities, you went into 20 Mr. Kennedy's office from time to time, 21 correct? 22 A Yes. 1 Q About how many times were you in 2 there on a daily basis? 3 A Two or three. 4 Q What was the reason you usually 5 went into his office? 6 A Take a phone message, take a letter 7 in, take something that had been interoffice 8 mail, drop that off. If he had an assignment 9 for me, I would go. 10 Q When you walked into his office, 11 you would sometimes see these grayish-brown 12 envelopes, correct? 13 A No. 14 Q Never saw one? 15 A In his office? No, I did not. 16 Q Did you see any other envelopes or 17 files that came from the Office of Personnel 18 Security when you walked into his office 19 routinely? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: The only files I saw 1 were the manila files, and I'm not sure where 2 they came from. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q It was your understanding the 5 manila files came from the Personnel Office? 6 A I don't believe I said that. I 7 said they could have been the files that we 8 had -- that were made up with the Form 86s. 9 Q Did you ever see any other kinds of 10 envelopes or files in Mr. Kennedy's office? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you ever go into Mr. Kennedy's 13 safe? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you ever go into any safes in 16 his office? 17 A No. 18 Q Mr. Foster had a safe in 19 Mr. Kennedy's office, correct? 20 A Not that I know of. 21 Q Mr. Nussbaum had a safe in 22 Mr. Foster's office? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Mr. Nussbaum had a 5 safe in Mr. Foster's office? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q No, I'm sorry. Mr. Foster had a 8 safe in Mr. Nussbaum's office? 9 A I don't know that I -- there was a 10 safe in Mr. Nussbaum's office. I think it 11 was jointly shared. 12 Q Do you know whose safe it was? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 14 MR. FLINT: Objection. I think 15 your question's been answered. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you know who used that safe? 18 A Bernie used it, and Mr. Foster used 19 it, and that's it. 20 Q Did you ever go into that safe? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What did you go into the safe for? 1 A If things were delivered that were 2 from the National Security Office, or if we 3 were asked to pick up a document that was 4 classified, I would put it in the safe, if 5 Mr. Nussbaum wasn't there. 6 Q We're back at the OEOB. Did you 7 ever see the names of any individuals on 8 files or envelopes? 9 A No. 10 Q It's not that you don't remember 11 the names of specific individuals, you never 12 saw any names on envelopes or file folders? 13 A That would be correct. 14 Q You never saw envelopes or file 15 folders relating to political appointees when 16 you walked into Mr. Kennedy's office? 17 A No. 18 Q You never saw envelopes or file 19 folders with regard to holdover employees 20 when you walked into Mr. Kennedy's office? 21 A No. 22 Q What, if anything, did you see in 1 Mr. Kennedy's office? 2 A As on this chart, there was a 3 working table right here, and I recall seeing 4 manila envelopes, and -- 5 Q Manila envelopes or manila folders? 6 A Manila folders, I'm sorry. Over 7 here where this table is -- 8 Q I'm sorry. The first place you're 9 pointing, where is that? 10 A The working table here. 11 Q Can you hold that up? 12 A Sure. 13 Q Working table. Can we put a 2 next 14 to that? You saw manila file folders there? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did you see those file folders 17 stacked up? 18 A There was a stack, you know. 19 Q Was that stack always there? 20 A I don't know. A lawyer's office 21 always has stacks of stuff around it. 22 Q During the period that you worked 1 with Mr. Kennedy, did you see those stacks on 2 more than one occasion, that stack on more 3 than one occasion? 4 A I don't know that it was the same 5 stack, and, you know, it was -- I'm not sure 6 how to answer, because it was not -- I don't 7 recall that it was the same thing every time 8 I walked in his office. You know, I don't 9 know if he worked on something and moved it 10 to another table, or -- I just don't recall. 11 I recall that there were law books in his 12 office. 13 Q Let's keep with the manila folders. 14 Did you see more than one stack sometimes? 15 A I don't recall seeing more than one 16 stack, but it's not to say that there could 17 have been a stack on the table and a stack on 18 this table. I just don't remember. 19 Q Did you see stacks on the floor? 20 A No. 21 Q Never? 22 A Never. 1 Q Did you see stacks on the desks? 2 A There could have -- 3 Q Of manila file folders? 4 A I can't identify them as manila 5 file folders. They were just papers. 6 Q Did you see manila file folders on 7 the couch? 8 A Not that I recall. 9 Q On the conference table? 10 A That's the table -- 11 Q The coffee table? This little 12 roundtable in the middle of -- 13 A That's the one I said that perhaps 14 they could have -- there could have been file 15 folders on this table, and there could have 16 been some on the coffee table. 17 Q Could there have been some on the 18 table behind Mr. Kennedy's desk? 19 A I don't recall seeing any. 20 Q You don't know whether these manila 21 folders were the same manila folders that you 22 received that had the Form SF 86 on it? 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q It might have been different manila 3 folders? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you ever ask Mr. Kennedy what 6 those manila folders contained? 7 A No. 8 Q You didn't want to know? 9 A The office policy was on a 10 need-to-know basis, and it wasn't appropriate 11 for me to ask about it. 12 Q I'm sorry. Do you want to 13 continue? 14 A I just didn't feel it was 15 appropriate to ask what was in files that 16 weren't given for me or work that -- 17 Q Who set that policy on a 18 need-to-know basis? 19 A It was a policy in Mr. Nussbaum's 20 office, and it was a policy in The White 21 House Counsel's Office. It was always a 22 policy. I don't know who set it. 1 Q Who expressed it to you the first 2 time? 3 A Mr. Nussbaum. 4 Q What did he say to you 5 specifically? 6 A I remember a file -- one of those 7 envelopes came over, and it had Eyes Only on 8 it, and I handed it to Mr. Nussbaum, and he 9 buzzed me and said, have somebody pick this 10 folder up. Call security and have them pick 11 this envelope up. And I said, sure. Would 12 you like me to seal it up? And he said, no, 13 I'll seal it up myself. The fewer people 14 that handle information, the better, and 15 he -- I didn't know what the information was, 16 but -- 17 Q You asked him what it was? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe 20 so. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Is it possible you asked him when 1 he said, better you don't know? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Something like that? 6 A No, I don't think I asked him what 7 it was -- what anything was. I mean, if it 8 had Eyes -- if it were labeled Eyes Only, 9 then that was the way I proceeded. 10 Q Did he sit down with you and say, 11 there is a policy in this office called a 12 need-to-know policy? 13 A No. 14 Q How did you learn there was a 15 need-to-know policy? 16 A Because, as I just stated, if a 17 file came over, he handled it himself, rather 18 than let anyone else seal it back up for him 19 or whatever. He handled the whole document 20 himself, and I said one time, would you like 21 me to seal that back up? And he said no, 22 I'll seal it myself. 1 Q He had unsealed the envelope 2 himself? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You saw him receive more than one 5 Eyes Only file when you worked for him? 6 A Yeah, there were a few. 7 Q There were several? 8 A Four or five. 9 Q Were the names of the individuals 10 involved on those files? 11 A No. 12 Q You don't know who they were? 13 A No. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 MR. FLINT: Objection. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You saw Mr. Kennedy get Eyes Only 18 folders too, you testified? 19 A Yes. 20 Q He had the same policy? Only he 21 would handle them? 22 A As far as I knew. 1 Q Would others in the office handle 2 them, in addition to Mr. Kennedy? 3 A I really don't know. 4 Q Do you know if Mr. Foster handled 5 them? 6 A Mr. Foster? 7 Q Mr. Vince Foster, if he ever got 8 Eyes Only folders? 9 A Oh, I don't know. 10 Q Any other White House counsel, 11 associate, assistant, ever get Eyes Only 12 folders that you know of? 13 A No, not that I know of. 14 Q Did you ever see Mr. Livingstone or 15 Mr. Marceca bring Eyes Only folders to 16 Mr. Kennedy or anyone else? 17 A Yes. 18 Q That was fairly frequent? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q That was frequent? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 1 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by 2 frequent? 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q About how many times did you see 5 Mr. Livingstone or Mr. Marceca bring Eyes 6 Only folders to Mr. Kennedy? 7 A It was not out of proportion with 8 the other members who brought file folders 9 up, or whatever they were, envelopes. I 10 mean, there were different people from White 11 House Security. 12 Q Bringing the Eyes Only folders? 13 A Yes, as I recall. 14 Q So about how many times a day did 15 Eyes Only folders come into the office? 16 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't even know if 18 they came in every day. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q How many times, approximately, a 21 week? 22 A It would be a guess. 1 Q That's fine. 2 A Three. 3 Q Of those three, how many times 4 would it be either Mr. Livingstone or 5 Mr. Marceca that brought them? 6 A Could be none. It could be none, 7 or they could have walked them up. I don't 8 know what the criteria was for who delivered 9 Eyes Only. 10 Q About how many times did you see 11 Marceca or Livingstone delivering Eyes Only 12 folders? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q In toto. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I'd say, no more than 19 seven or eight. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q In the whole time you were there? 22 A Mm-hmm. 1 Q Those seven or eight, they all went 2 to Kennedy? 3 A Yes, I believe so. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a break to 5 change the tape. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 7 video record at 3:52. 8 (Recess) 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 10 video record at 3:57. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Now, you said when you worked in 13 the office, Ms. Pond, that you frequently 14 answered the phone? 15 A In which office? 16 Q Kennedy's office. 17 A Yes. 18 Q That was one of your primary 19 responsibilities, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q You kept phone message books, if 22 you didn't pass the call on immediately to 1 the callee? 2 A Not phone message books. Probably 3 the little yellow forms, the government 4 forms. You know what I'm talking about? 5 Q Describe them for me, because 6 innocent observers won't know. 7 A They're about this big and this 8 wide, and they're on cheap government paper. 9 Q They have carbon? 10 A No. 11 Q Is there a way that you can keep a 12 record of who called in? Was there a way in 13 the office to keep a record of who called in? 14 A Not that I recall. 15 Q You sometimes took calls from 16 Hillary Clinton, correct? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Hillary Clinton never called the 21 office? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you ever see Hillary Clinton in 4 the office? 5 A In which office? 6 Q In the suite of offices where 7 Mr. Kennedy and you were residing. 8 A No. 9 Q Did you ever see her in 10 Mr. Nussbaum's office suite? 11 A Yes. 12 Q About how many times did you see 13 her in that office suite? 14 A Once. 15 Q Do you know why she was there? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Did she go into a meeting? 18 A No, there was no meeting. 19 Q What did she do? 20 A She went in and talked to 21 Mr. Nussbaum, I guess. 22 Q Was the door closed? 1 A You know, I really don't know. I 2 don't recall. 3 Q When did this occur? 4 A I don't think I can give you an 5 exact date or proximity of a date. I just 6 don't remember. She also stuck her head in 7 and just waved to everybody. 8 Q Frequently? 9 A As she passed by, she would just 10 wave hello to everyone. 11 Q That was fairly frequent? 12 A Whenever she went to our office. 13 Q So you only saw her in Nussbuam's 14 office once, you're saying? 15 A That's all I recall. 16 Q But it may have been more times? 17 A I didn't see her. 18 Q Was it during the beginning of the 19 time you worked with Nussbuam, or towards the 20 latter period? 21 A I'd say, it was more towards May or 22 June. 1 Q Of what year? 2 A '93. 3 Q Now, you took calls from 4 Mrs. Clinton when you worked with Nussbuam, 5 correct? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Not ever? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Are you aware of other people 14 taking calls from Mrs. Clinton during the 15 period that you worked with Mr. Nussbaum? 16 A Mrs. Clinton wouldn't place her own 17 phone calls. They would come through The 18 White House operator, I'm sure. 19 Q Were you aware of calls being 20 placed through a White House operator from 21 Mrs. Clinton's office, when you worked for 22 Mr. Nussbaum? 1 A For Mr. Nussbaum? 2 Q Yes. 3 A No, I don't recall. 4 Q Not once? 5 A I don't recall any. 6 Q When you worked for Mr. Kennedy, 7 were you aware of calls coming from 8 Mrs. Clinton's office -- 9 A No. 10 Q Routed through The White House 11 operator? 12 A No. 13 Q Not once? 14 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A No. 18 Q Was it possible to call in to 19 Mr. Kennedy's office without passing through 20 you? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You could just dial the extension? 1 A I believe so, yes. 2 Q If Mrs. Clinton wanted to call 3 Mr. Kennedy and not let anybody know about 4 that, she could just dial the extension, and 5 she'd get Bill Kennedy? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You can respond. 11 A Yeah, I guess. 12 Q So you don't know how many times 13 Mrs. Clinton called Mr. Kennedy when you 14 worked in that office. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know that she 19 ever called. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q But you don't know that she didn't 22 call frequently? 1 A No, I don't know. 2 Q You don't know one way or the 3 other? 4 A To my knowledge, she never called. 5 Q Mr. Kennedy was in his office 6 sometimes with the door closed, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q In fact, he frequently worked with 9 the door closed, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q In fact, that was his usual way of 12 working, with the door closed? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So you don't know how many times he 15 received calls from Mrs. Clinton directly on 16 his extension? 17 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 A No, I don't. 22 Q Did Mr. Nussbaum also generally 1 work with his door closed? 2 A He did a lot of the time, yes. 3 Q So you don't know how many times he 4 was getting calls from Mrs. Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 6 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 7 and characterization. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A The calls from Mrs. Clinton or The 11 White House operator would not have gone 12 straight into Mr. Nussbaum. He did not have 13 a private line; I don't believe. They would 14 have come through the front office. 15 Q Mr. Nussbaum did not have a private 16 line? 17 A Not that I recall. 18 Q You mean he didn't have a private 19 extension? 20 A Right, exactly. 21 Q Do you know whether your lawyers 22 represent Hillary Clinton? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: My lawyers? 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Yes, the ones sitting here today. 6 A Not to my knowledge. 7 Q Have you ever asked? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you know whether they represent 10 the Democratic Party? 11 A No, I don't know. 12 Q Do you know whether they represent 13 anyone other than we mentioned this morning 14 working at The White House? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you read Linda Tripp's 17 testimony in this case? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Where did you get a copy of it? 20 A My lawyer. 21 Q Did you read all of it? 22 A I think so, yes. 1 Q You read it before today's 2 deposition? 3 A Actually, I read it in January. 4 Q How long did it take you to read 5 it? 6 A Several hours. 7 Q When you were working for 8 Mr. Kennedy, did you ever take calls from the 9 Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI? 10 A Not that I recall. 11 Q When you worked for Mr. Nussbaum, 12 did you ever take calls from the FBI? 13 A Not that I recall. 14 Q When you worked for Mr. Kennedy, 15 did you ever take calls from the Internal 16 Revenue Service? 17 A No. 18 Q When you worked for Mr. Nussbaum, 19 did you take calls from the Internal Revenue 20 Service? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you know whether Mr. Kennedy 1 ever spoke by phone with people at the FBI? 2 A I don't know, no. 3 Q Do you know whether Mr. Nussbaum 4 ever spoke with anyone from the FBI? 5 A I don't know, no. 6 Q Do you know whether other people in 7 the office took calls from the FBI, 8 Mr. Kennedy's? 9 A No, I don't know. 10 Q Or Mr. Nussbaum's? 11 A I don't know. 12 MR. FLINT: Let her answer the 13 question. Don't start asking her an add-on 14 while she's trying to answer the question. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You don't know? 17 A That's correct, I don't know. 18 Q Did you ever see Mr. Nussbaum 19 meeting with Mr. Kennedy in Mr. Kennedy's 20 office? 21 A No, I didn't. 22 Q Did you ever see Mr. Kennedy in 1 Mr. Nussbaum's office? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Frequently? 4 A Yes, every day. There was a staff 5 meeting every morning. 6 Q Who attended that staff meeting? 7 A Other counsels. 8 Q Who were they? 9 A That would have been Bill Kennedy, 10 Beth Nolan, Cheryl Mills, Steve Neuwirth. 11 Q Do you know what they discussed at 12 those meetings? 13 A No, sir, I don't. 14 Q You don't know one thing they 15 discussed? 16 A No. 17 Q Now, the files that you saw in 18 Kennedy's office, the manila folders? 19 A Yes. 20 Q You don't know whether or not they 21 were documents that came from the FBI in 22 those manila folders, correct? 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 3 That's correct, I don't know what was in 4 them. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Do you know of anyone who does know 7 what's in them? 8 A No, I don't. 9 Q Do you know whatever happened to 10 the manila folders in Kennedy's office? Do 11 you know where they went after you saw them? 12 A No, I don't. 13 Q Did you ever see them taken out of 14 his office? 15 A No. 16 Q In terms of the staff that worked 17 in and around Mr. Kennedy, were you the 18 highest ranking of the support people? 19 A I don't think we were ranked. I 20 think that we were all equal. 21 Q Was your grade the highest? 22 A We weren't on a grade system. 1 Q Was your level of political 2 appointment the highest? 3 A I don't know what other people's 4 political appointment was. 5 Q Besides Mr. Waudby, who worked 6 around you in Kennedy's office in a support 7 position? 8 A In my immediate office, it was just 9 Steven and I. In other offices, there were 10 other support people. 11 Q What other offices? 12 A Oh, other White House counsels' 13 offices down the hall. 14 Q In this suite that we've listed 15 here? 16 A No. No. 17 Q What is this, Exhibit No. 3? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Were there other support people in 20 that suite other than Mr. Waudby and you? 21 A No. Just the two of us. 22 Q Clearly you were superior in 1 position than Mr. Waudby? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I wasn't superior to 4 Mr. Waudby. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Well, you received more pay than he 7 did? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I would assume that I 10 did, but I don't know for sure. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q He was just a young guy right out 13 of school, right? 14 A I don't know how long he had been 15 out of school. 16 Q He was your assistant, correct? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: No, he wasn't. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q He worked under your direction? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Whose direction did he work under? 4 A Bill Kennedy's. 5 Q Did he ever tell you what he did 6 for Bill Kennedy? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know what he did for Bill 9 Kennedy? 10 A Not specifically, no, I don't know. 11 Q What do you know generally? 12 A He took files in, and I really 13 don't know what -- I really don't -- I'm not 14 sure exactly what his duties were other than 15 the things that we did together. 16 Q Do you know what files he took in 17 to Bill Kennedy's office? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q What color were they? 20 A They were manila files. They may 21 have been the same files that we were working 22 on? I just don't know. 1 Q Did he ever take the dark gray, the 2 brownish-gray files in? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q The ones you previously identified? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know that. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q These brownish-gray files, were 11 they kind of a buff color? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 14 It's also a mischaracterization, a 15 mischaracterization of what the testimony has 16 been. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, wait, wait. 18 Can we have the witness leave the room before 19 you work your handiwork? Please leave the 20 room, Ms. Pond. 21 MR. FLINT: I am working no 22 handiwork? 1 MR. GREEN: Are we done? You guys 2 want to have further copy on this? I'll be 3 happy to have the company find another room. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: No. I just want to 5 be able to ask a question, a simple question 6 without being interrupted. Will you please 7 leave the room, Ms. Pond? 8 MR. GREEN: Can you hold on for a 9 second, Mr. Klayman? We might be able to 10 forestall this. Okay? 11 (Discussion off the record) 12 MR. FLINT: I'm not trying to 13 confuse the issue, Mr. Klayman, but I 14 believe, I'm not sure that she's talked about 15 them as files. She's talked about envelopes 16 coming to the office, and she did not 17 indicate that they were files because she 18 didn't know what was in them, and I just want 19 to make -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. I'll correct 21 it. You can bring her back. 22 (Discussion off the record) 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me. 2 Mr. Gilligan. I don't want to interrupt your 3 afternoon snack or anything. What are you 4 eating? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Everybody wants to 6 know that. I'm eating a green blondie. It's 7 very brave of me, I think, or foolish. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: What is a green 9 blondie? 10 MR. GILLIGAN: It's this. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I've never had one. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q What did you understand -- what did 14 you work on with Mr. Waudby together? You 15 said you worked with him together. 16 A On nomination packages. 17 Q The ones you described earlier? 18 A Yes. 19 Q That were in the manila folders? 20 A Yes, but they were housed in 21 different colored -- the manila folders were 22 housed in colored jackets like that. 1 Q Was the manila folder this color 2 that I'm holding up? 3 A I believe it was, but I'm not sure 4 certain. 5 Q Kind of a buff color? 6 A That's the way I think I remember 7 it. 8 Q You would sometimes type 9 information from those nomination folders on 10 the computer? 11 A The names and addresses that were 12 used to send on form letters to the IRS or to 13 the Ethics Board. We would use the file 14 folder with the 86 form in it to make sure we 15 spelled the names correctly and the Social 16 Security number was correct, and I think 17 that's it. 18 Q Did you put a listing of those 19 finals on your computer, sometimes list the 20 ones that you were reviewing? 21 A No. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you sometimes summarize the 3 information on the 86 forms by typing it into 4 your computer? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you sometimes type any 7 information about applicants into your 8 computer? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know of anybody in the 11 office who did? 12 A No. 13 Q Have you ever heard of a White 14 House computer system called WHODB? 15 A I've read about it since this -- 16 since I've read these depositions. I'd never 17 heard of it before. 18 Q You ever hear of a White House 19 computer system called Big Brother? 20 A No. 21 Q You ever hear the two words Big 22 Brother used at The White House? 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever see Maggie Williams in 3 the office, the suite with Mr. Kennedy? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you ever see her in the suite 6 with Mr. Nussbaum? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Frequently? 9 A No, not really. 10 Q How many times did you see her 11 there? 12 A Five, seven. 13 Q She'd meet with Mr. Nussbaum? 14 A I don't recall if it was a meeting 15 just with Mr. Nussbaum or whether it was a 16 group meeting. I just remember seeing 17 Maggie. 18 Q She sometimes attended those daily 19 staff meetings that you talked about? 20 A No, she never did. 21 Q Did you ever see her in the suite 22 of offices where Mr. Nussbaum and you were 1 located with David Watkins there? 2 A I don't have any recollection of 3 that. 4 Q You did see David Watkins in that 5 office, didn't you? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You sometimes attended meetings in 8 that office suite? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I remember 11 seeing him. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q He attended meetings sometimes in 14 Mr. Foster's office? 15 A That's where I saw him attend 16 meetings. 17 Q How many meetings did he have in 18 Mr. Foster's office, roughly? 19 A Two that I recall -- I mean that's 20 a number of comes to mind. 21 Q At those two meetings, in one of 22 those meetings, was Maggie Williams also 1 present? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q At one of those meetings, was Harry 6 or Susan Bloodworth Thomasson also there? 7 A I don't believe so. 8 Q Did you ever see -- do you know who 9 Harry Thomasson is? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You met him at The White House? 12 A I didn't meet him. I saw him. 13 Q You know he's the famous film 14 producer from Hollywood? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I know he's a 17 producer. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you ever see him in the suite 20 of offices with Mr. Nussbaum? 21 A No. 22 Q With Mr. Kennedy? 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever see him in 3 Mr. Foster's office? 4 A I am not sure. 5 Q You might have seen him there? 6 A I remember seeing him, but I can't 7 place where I saw him, but I know I didn't 8 see him in Mr. Nussbaum's office, and I 9 didn't see him in Mr. Kennedy's office, but I 10 do remember seeing him. 11 Q You saw him in the presence of 12 Mr. Watkins sometimes? 13 A No. 14 Q Maggie Williams? 15 A No. I don't have any recollection. 16 Q Mr. Foster kept a very neat office, 17 didn't he? 18 A Yes. 19 Q He was meticulous? 20 A Yes. 21 Q He rarely had stuff on his desk? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 THE WITNESS: I didn't go into his 2 office. I mean, I went into his office, but 3 I don't recall seeing anything on his desk. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q So if something was on his desk, it 6 would be very conspicuous because it was 7 usually a very clean desk? 8 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A I don't know. I wouldn't draw that 13 conclusion. 14 Q Did you ever see Catherine 15 Cornelius in Mr. Foster's office? 16 A I'm not really sure what Catherine 17 Cornelius looks like. 18 Q You never met Catherine Cornelius? 19 A No, I did not. 20 Q Did you ever see Deborah Gorham in 21 Mr. Foster's office? 22 A Yes. 1 Q Did you ever see Linda Tripp in 2 Mr. Foster's office? 3 A No. 4 Q You don't know whether she was in 5 there. You just didn't see her? 6 A Well, Ms. Tripp was only in our 7 offices a week or so before Mr. Foster died. 8 Q Were you sitting at your desk the 9 whole time for that week? 10 A No. 11 Q You were out of the office 12 sometimes? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So she may have walked into 15 Foster's office? 16 A Could have. You asked me if I saw 17 her. 18 Q Did you ever observe meetings in 19 Mr. Foster's office? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did he ever close his door? 22 A Yes. 1 Q Frequently? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Who did you see most frequently 4 meeting with Mr. Foster in his office? 5 A I'm not sure that I even knew the 6 identification of people that may have been 7 meeting with Mr. Foster. 8 Q Do you know any of them? 9 A I'm trying to think. You're asking 10 me frequent visitors? Bill Kennedy visited 11 frequently, Marcia Scott. I can't remember 12 any other frequent -- 13 Q Do you know why Marcia Scott was in 14 the office? 15 A No, I don't. 16 Q Do you know who Marcia Scott is? 17 A Yes, I know what she looks like. 18 Q Where did she work at The White 19 House, at the time? 20 A Correspondence, I believe. 21 Q You know that Marcia Scott was very 22 close with Mr. Clinton that was her 1 reputation in The White House, correct? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: Excuse me? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q It was her reputation in The White 7 House as having a very close relationship 8 with President Clinton, correct? 9 A I know that she was from Arkansas. 10 I didn't know what her relationship was with 11 the President. 12 Q It was well known in The White 13 House when you worked there that Vince Foster 14 was very close with Hillary Clinton, correct? 15 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, they were close 17 friends. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Did you see Mrs. Clinton in 20 Mr. Foster's office? 21 A I don't believe I ever did. 22 Q Did Mr. Foster have his own 1 extension too so you could call in there and 2 it wouldn't have to go through you or anybody 3 else? 4 A No. It was like a rotary number. 5 It was like three numbers, 03, 04, 05. 6 Q Did you ever take a call from 7 Mrs. Clinton for Mr. Foster? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q On how many occasions? 10 A Five, maybe. 11 Q You were aware that she called 12 other times and other people took the call? 13 A I'm not aware of that, no. 14 Q You sometimes took messages from 15 Mrs. Clinton and gave them to Mr. Foster if 16 she had called? 17 A I believe -- I don't remember doing 18 a message. If he was not in his office, I 19 probably would have asked -- left a message. 20 Q Those calls went through the same 21 phone that would have -- that calls to 22 Mr. Nussbaum would have gone through? 1 A No. 2 Q Different phone? 3 A Yes. They were different phone 4 numbers. 5 Q But you would pick it up on the 6 same phone? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you know why Mrs. Clinton was 9 calling? 10 A No, I don't. 11 Q Did she call the week before 12 Mr. Foster died? 13 A Not that I'm aware of. 14 Q She may have? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Now, before Mr. Foster died, did 17 you notice any documents that he had in his 18 office? 19 A No. 20 Q When Mr. Foster died, where were 21 you? Where did you learn first that 22 Mr. Foster had died? 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can answer. 5 A At home. 6 Q How did you find out? 7 A There was a message on my answering 8 machine to call The White House. 9 Q Who left the message? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 11 relevancy to all this line of questioning. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Please respond. 14 A A White House operator called and I 15 also had a call from Linda Tripp. 16 Q What did Linda Tripp say to you? 17 A I called her back, and she told me 18 that Mr. Foster had committed suicide. 19 Q Did she tell you anything else? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q What did you do after that? Did 22 you get any more calls? 1 A From anybody else? 2 Q Yes. 3 A No. 4 Q What did you do after that? 5 A I told Linda to sleep in and I 6 would go to work early, and I went to work 7 early. I called two people to tell them so 8 that they wouldn't hear it on TV. 9 Q Who did you call? 10 A Tom Castleton and John Carey. 11 Q Refresh my recollection. Where did 12 they work again at the time? 13 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevancy 14 to this whole line of questions. It has 15 nothing to do with your litigation. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Just because other 17 people have made allegations about 18 Mr. Foster's death does not mean he's not 19 relevant or documents he kept in his office 20 are not relevant. 21 MR. FLINT: This subject matter is 22 not relevant. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. If you 2 want to demonize this, you can do it 3 somewhere else, but these are relevant 4 questions. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Please respond. 7 A I'm sorry. I forgot the question. 8 Q Where did Castleton and what's the 9 other guy's name? 10 A Oh, I'm sorry. Tom Castleton 11 worked in the Counsel's Office and John Carey 12 worked in the Counsel's Office across the 13 street. 14 Q Why did you call them? 15 A I didn't want them to hear it on 16 television. 17 Q Why them in particular? 18 A Tom was in our suite, and I was 19 close to John Carey. He's a close friend. 20 Q Did you call anybody else? 21 A No. 22 Q Did anything else happen that night 1 before you went to work the next day? 2 MR. FLINT: Objection as to the 3 characterization. There's no testimony -- 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I take it you went to sleep. 6 A No. No. That was in the morning. 7 Q It happened in the morning that you 8 were called? 9 A No. The messages were on my phone 10 from the night before. 11 Q You heard them in the morning? 12 A Right. 13 Q Then you called Castleton and the 14 other fellow? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Then you went to work? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What did you observe when you got 19 to work? 20 A In the way of what? 21 Q When you got into the suite, what 22 did you observe? 1 A It was just the same suite. 2 Q Did you see people carrying things 3 out of Mr. Foster's office? 4 A No. I was the first one there. 5 Q Was his door open? 6 A No. 7 Q Who opened the door? 8 A Mr. Foster? 9 Q Yes. 10 A I did. 11 Q Did you have to unlock it? 12 A No. There was a security -- there 13 is a security system -- as far as I know it's 14 still there -- behind Mr. Foster's door that 15 you must deactivate. 16 Q Did you ever have access to the 17 combinations for any safes in Mr. Nussbaum's 18 office? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you know who else did? 21 A Deborah Gorham did, Linda did. I'm 22 sure that Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Foster also 1 had them. I'm just not aware of it. 2 Q When you went into the office, did 3 you see some documents there or folders or 4 envelopes or anything? 5 A No. There were some news clips on 6 a coffee table. 7 Q Did you see some manila-colored 8 folders? 9 A No. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You're sure of that? 13 A I certainly don't remember seeing 14 any. 15 Q You don't know one way or the 16 other? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I didn't see any. I 20 just have no memory of seeing any folders. I 21 think I would remember it if there were 22 folders there, but I just don't remember it. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you ever see any grayish-brown 3 envelopes in Mr. Foster's office when you 4 walked in? 5 A No. 6 Q You don't remember or you're sure 7 of that? 8 A I didn't see any. 9 Q You are aware that Mr. Foster 10 sometimes had access to manila-colored 11 folders? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of what 14 he had access to, no. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You did see him with manila-colored 17 envelopes or folders? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A No, I didn't. 1 Q You did see him with brownish-gray 2 colored envelopes? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Is it your opinion that in working 7 with him that Mr. Foster was an extremely 8 ethical man? 9 A Yes. 10 Q He was not the kind of person that 11 would break any laws, based on your 12 experience? 13 A No, he would not break any laws. 14 Q If he knew of other people breaking 15 laws, based on your getting to know him -- 16 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Based on your knowledge of him and 19 how ethical he was, if he knew of wrongdoing 20 in The White House, that would have troubled 21 him greatly, correct? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 3 and relevancy. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A I would just like to say, isn't 7 that a speculation on my part? 8 Q Well, this is discovery, and I'm 9 basing it on your knowledge of him and how 10 ethical he was. 11 A He was extremely ethical, yes. 12 Q So based on your knowledge in 13 having worked with him and based on that 14 experience, is it your opinion that if he 15 knew there was law breaking in The White 16 House, that that would have bothered him a 17 great deal. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A Yes. 1 Q He was a very sensitive person? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A I don't know that he was sensitive. 7 He was a private person. 8 Q Quiet? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Based on your exposure to him, did 11 he seem like someone who was very thoughtful, 12 think about things a lot? 13 A I don't know. 14 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you ever have a conversation 17 with him about his family or his private 18 life? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 20 relevance. 21 THE WITNESS: Not an in-depth 22 conversation, just how are you doing, how's 1 everybody doing, that kind of thing. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q He didn't tell you about his life 4 in Arkansas or his wife and kids or anything 5 like that? 6 A No. 7 Q He had pictures of his family on 8 his desk, didn't he? 9 A I don't remember seeing any 10 pictures of his family on his desk. 11 Q He had pictures of his family in 12 his office? 13 A I remember a picture of Mr. Foster 14 and his wife Lisa, and I don't know if I 15 remember any -- I don't know if I recall 16 anything else. 17 Q He had some pictures of his days in 18 Arkansas in his office, apart from his 19 family, didn't he? 20 MR. FLINT: Objection to relevance 21 and form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q You can respond. 2 A I think that there was a picture of 3 a nursery school class or Mrs. somebody's 4 class. I don't recall what it looked like, 5 but I remember that there was a picture of 6 Vince when he was a little boy in a class, 7 and I think that Matt McLarty was in the 8 picture and the President was in the picture. 9 Q Vince was very proud of that 10 picture? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't know that. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did he show it to you? 15 A No. 16 Q You saw it though when you walked 17 into his office? 18 A Yes, I did. 19 Q Where did he have it displayed? 20 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 21 and relevance. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q You can respond. 2 A I believe it was on a bookcase, if 3 there was a bookcase. It was something that 4 was against the wall. 5 Q Did he have other pictures on the 6 bookcase? 7 A A picture of he and Lisa Foster, 8 and that's as much as I can recall. 9 Q Did he have any awards in his 10 office or diplomas or anything like that? 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q Did Mr. Foster ever tell you that 13 everything that you do there has to be done 14 right and legally? Did he ever say anything 15 like that? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Anything like that? 19 A I didn't have a conversation like 20 that with Mr. Foster. 21 Q But you just observed that he was 22 that kind of person? 1 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm really not sure 3 how I could characterize Mr. Foster. In my 4 mind's eye, he was extremely private, 5 extremely ethical, and a very kind man. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q During the time that you worked at 8 The White House, did anyone ever offer an 9 opinion as to why Mr. Foster killed himself? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 11 relvancy. 12 MR. FLINT: Objection to form and 13 certainly relevance. 14 THE WITNESS: You mean in the 15 newspapers, media? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q No, inside the White House. Surely 18 some people must have speculated on why he 19 killed himself. 20 MR. FLINT: Is that a question? 21 THE WITNESS: You know, people 22 could say he was overworked, he was tired, he 1 was this, he was that. People were full of 2 anxiety in trying to put a label on why 3 Mr. Foster might have done that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Well, and I'm asking you, did 6 anyone ever say anything to the effect he 7 killed himself because he was troubled by 8 what he saw going on in The White House 9 Counsel's Office? 10 A Oh, no. No. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did anyone ever say he killed 14 himself because he was troubled by what was 15 going on in the White House generally? 16 MR. FLINT: Objection to form and 17 relevancy. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever hear anyone say that 21 he killed himself because he knew that 22 obtaining the FBI files of Republicans was 1 something that was going to get him in a lot 2 of trouble? 3 MR. FLINT: Objection as form, 4 relevancy, characterization, no predication. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever meet Craig 8 Livingstone? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Before I ask you that did anyone 11 ever say in The White House that maybe his 12 death wasn't a suicide? 13 MR. FLINT: Objection. I will also 14 make this objection commenting on the point 15 that this morning you told me you were not 16 going to ask any questions with respect to 17 the cause of the death or the suicide issue 18 with respect to Mr. Foster. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't. Why are 20 you so sensitive about that? 21 MR. FLINT: It's totally irrelevant 22 and unnecessary. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me speculate on a 2 theory. Can you leave for a second, 3 Ms. Pond? I'll be happy to put it on the 4 record. Would you leave the office, 5 Ms. Pond? 6 A I'm trying to get my microphone 7 off. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Take your time. 9 MR. FLINT: This is the very first 10 place that you started this morning and we 11 raised objections to it as to the materiality 12 and the relevance of it. You told us that 13 the cause of death or the issue of whether it 14 was suicide was an issue that you were going 15 to go into in this deposition. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not here to prove 17 that one way or the other, but I'm allowed to 18 ask -- 19 MR. FLINT: But you told us you 20 weren't going to go into it. Isn't that what 21 you said this morning? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: No, that isn't. But 1 even if I did, I can change my mind. 2 MR. FLINT: You're incorrect. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: And here's the 4 reason. Because if Mr. Foster was in doing 5 some very bad things with FBI files, if 6 indeed he was ready to talk about that to the 7 public or to Attorney General Reno or an 8 independent counsel, it is quite possible 9 that someone might have had him killed. 10 MR. FLINT: Which is the very same 11 issue that you said you were not going to go 12 into this morning. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: That is relevant. 14 MR. FLINT: It is not relevant. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking that 16 question. 17 MR. FLINT: Yes, you are. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I simply asked 19 whether anyone raised that issue. That's all 20 I asked. I'm not trying to prove it one way 21 or the other, but I'm allowed to ask that 22 simple question. 1 MS. SHAPIRO: The witness already 2 said no. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't hear her say 4 no. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: That was the last 6 response she gave you. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Then, if it was no, 8 what are we arguing about? I get the 9 feeling, and no disrespect, I get the feeling 10 you're representing interests other than 11 Ms. Pond because you get so upset when I ask 12 any questions that impinge on other people's 13 conduct in The White House. 14 MR. FLINT: My only interest in 15 this deposition is for Ms. Pond and it has 16 never been any other way. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: If she already gave a 18 response, then I'm finished. Can we bring 19 her back? Did she give a response? 20 (The reporter read the record as 21 requested.) 22 MS. SHAPIRO: I join the relevancy 1 objection. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Ms. Pond, did anyone ever say that 4 perhaps Mr. Foster didn't kill himself? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 6 relevancy. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Did you ever hear anybody say that 10 in The White House? 11 A No, I didn't. 12 Q Having read Ms. Tripp's deposition, 13 are you aware that Mr. Foster's been 14 implicated in the Filegate controversy? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 17 THE WITNESS: Mr. Foster was 18 implicated in Filegate? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you take the testimony that you 21 read from Ms. Tripp to suggest that? 22 A No, I didn't. 1 Q Did you ever see any documents 2 being taken out of Mr. Foster's office after 3 he died? 4 A No, not documents. I saw personal 5 effects. 6 Q Did you see boxes? 7 A I don't know whether they were in 8 boxes. There were some things that -- 9 personal things that he had in his office, 10 like a silver cup and pictures. 11 Q Did they come out in boxes? 12 A Yes, I think we did put them in 13 boxes or they were put in boxes. 14 Q Did you pack them up? 15 A No. 16 Q You say we -- 17 A I meant we got boxes. 18 Q You didn't see what went into the 19 boxes when they came out? 20 A No. 21 Q So the boxes were closed, weren't 22 they? 1 A Actually, I believe that they were 2 -- the ends were folded in so that they 3 weren't covered boxes. That's my memory of 4 it. 5 Q The flaps in the boxes were folded 6 over so the contents wouldn't fall out? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, what I meant to 9 say was if you had a file box and you pushed 10 the flaps to the side and you just placed 11 things in them and then it didn't have -- 12 your box top was pushed against the sides of 13 it. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q But you didn't see everything that 16 was in the boxes? 17 A No, I did not. 18 Q There might have been documents 19 underneath for all you know? 20 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Correct? 1 A I don't know. 2 Q You don't know whether there were 3 documents in the boxes? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you see any manila folders in 6 those boxes? 7 A No. 8 Q Any grayish-brown envelopes? 9 A No. 10 Q Who took the boxes out of the 11 office? 12 A Tom Castleton took some boxes out 13 of the office. I believe he took them over 14 to Jim Hamilton's office. 15 Q Who is Jim Hamilton? 16 A He was the Foster family attorney. 17 I think that he took Mr. Foster's personal 18 effects there. 19 Q Do you know who packed up the 20 boxes? 21 A No, I don't know that. 22 Q Was Bernie Nussbuam in Foster's 1 office after he died? 2 MR. FLINT: Objection, imprecise, 3 it's vague, and what year? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: How could it be 5 clearer than that? 6 THE WITNESS: Could you give me a 7 time frame? 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Any time. 10 A Yes. 11 Q When did he enter Foster's office? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: The first time that I 14 saw him enter Mr. Foster's office was the day 15 after he committed suicide, and there was a 16 Secret Service agent guarding Mr. Foster's 17 door, and the President came up, and 18 Mr. Nussbaum wanted to show the President the 19 picture that I was telling you about, and he 20 told the Secret Service -- he asked the 21 Secret Service -- 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q Not the one of the wife, but the 2 one -- 3 A The one with Mac and Foster, and I 4 think that was it. 5 Q Why did Nussbaum want to show the 6 Secret Service that? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No. No. No. He 9 asked the Secret Service person to accompany 10 him in to get that picture to show it to the 11 President. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know why he did that? 14 A No. 15 Q That picture was always a source of 16 interest, wasn't it, when you worked there? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know why 20 it -- 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You overheard Nussbuam saying, I 1 want to get this picture out -- he said this 2 to the Secret Service agent -- so I can go 3 show the President? 4 A The President was standing right 5 there. 6 Q In the office? 7 A Yes, and he said I want to show you 8 this picture, and he asked the Secret Service 9 man to accompany him in to pick up the 10 picture. 11 Q So the President was in the suite? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Right after Foster died? 14 A No, the next morning. 15 Q The next morning? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did he come into the suite with 18 anyone? 19 A The photographer and the Secret 20 Service. 21 Q And who in the Secret Service did 22 he enter the suite with? 1 A Sir, I don't know. 2 Q Did the President say why he was 3 there? 4 A No. He just came up. He didn't 5 really say why he was there. He just came 6 up, I guess, to say hello, to share in the 7 sorrow, make people feel good. That's all I 8 know. 9 Q And when he came into the suite, 10 where did he stand? 11 A He stood at my desk for a while, 12 and then he went into Mr. Nussbaum's office. 13 Q Did he close the door? 14 A No, I don't believe so. 15 Q The door was open? 16 A Yes. 17 Q He talked to Mr. Nussbaum? 18 A Actually, there were several of The 19 White House counsels in there: Cheryl, Steve 20 Neuwirth, Beth, they were gathered in there. 21 Q In Mr. Nussbaum's office? 22 A Yes. 1 Q Anyone else? 2 A No. That's all I recall. 3 Q Anthony Marceca? 4 A No. 5 Q Bill Kennedy? 6 A Bill may have been there. 7 Q And you overheard their 8 conversation? 9 A No, I heard nothing. 10 Q But they were talking? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I didn't hear them 13 talking but I assume that they were. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q How long were they in there? 16 A Five minutes. 17 Q Did Nussbuam enter Foster's office 18 before the Secret Service arrived? 19 A No. 20 Q Did the President himself go into 21 Foster's office? 22 A No. 1 Q Did you ever see him in Foster's 2 office after Foster died? 3 A No. 4 Q Did the President peer into 5 Foster's office when he was in the suite that 6 morning? 7 A No. 8 Q Did he look in that direction? 9 A I really don't know. I can't 10 recall. 11 Q Did you find it strange that the 12 President and a bunch of lawyers were in 13 Nussbuam's office the morning after Foster 14 died? 15 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 16 THE WITNESS: Not at all. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Why not? 19 A Our deputy was dead, and he wanted 20 to offer consolation. 21 Q When you were at The White House, 22 did you ever gain an understanding that 1 during meeting that occurred in Nussbuam's 2 office with all the lawyers and the President 3 they discussed how to take evidence out of 4 Foster's office? 5 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 7 MR. FLINT: And lack of a 8 predicate. 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you ever hear anything about 12 whether they were discussing destroying 13 documents in Foster's office? 14 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I take it the President looked at 18 the picture that the Secret Service brought 19 to him? 20 A Actually, Mr. Nussbaum had the 21 picture. 22 Q And he showed it to the President? 1 A Yes. 2 Q And what was the President's 3 reaction? 4 A I don't know. 5 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 6 relevance. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You saw the President look at the 9 picture, right? 10 A Actually, I think that the 11 President was in Mr. Nussbaum's office, and 12 he had the picture in his hand and took it 13 in. The President was just right inside of 14 Mr. Nussbaum's office with the Secret 15 Service, as I recall, and The White House 16 photographer always accompanies the 17 President. 18 Q So did you observe the President's 19 demeanor? 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q What was his demeanor? 22 A He was very sad. 1 MR. FLINT: Objection as to 2 relevancy, materiality. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Was he crying? 5 A No, but his eyes were very red. 6 Q Did you see Hillary Clinton in the 7 office after Foster died? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you see Maggie Williams take 10 documents out of Foster's office? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you ever see her in the suite? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, asked and 16 answered. 17 THE WITNESS: After Vince died or 18 just did I see her come in for meetings or -- 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Yes. 21 A Is there any special time frame 22 you're asking me? 1 Q Yes. 2 A I mean, when would that be? 3 Q After he died. 4 A No. 5 Q You are aware that after Mr. Foster 6 died documents in his office were delivered 7 to the Clinton family quarters where a White 8 House aide was told by Mrs. Williams that 9 they needed to be reviewed by the First Lady? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Any part of what I just read to you 15 you have no knowledge of? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And do you have any knowledge as to 18 whether Mr. Nussbaum told the Secret Service 19 agent that Mrs. Clinton was concerned about 20 "unfettered access" to papers maintained by 21 Mr. Foster? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q During the time that you worked at 6 The White House was there anything that would 7 have impaired your memory? 8 A No. 9 Q Was there anything that would have 10 caused you to be less than completely alert 11 at any given time? 12 A No. 13 Q Have you ever had problems with 14 your memory? 15 A No. 16 Q After Foster died and you were 17 there that morning, did Mr. Nussbaum talk to 18 you by the phone? Did he call you on the 19 phone? 20 A No, he did not. 21 Q Did he ever tell you to go into 22 Foster's office? 1 A No. 2 Q Did you go into Mr. Foster's office 3 more than once that day? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: No -- oh, yes. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What did you go in the second time 8 for? 9 A To close the alarm -- turn off the 10 alarm when I left. 11 Q Did you see Mr. Livingstone in that 12 suite after Mr. Foster died? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you ever have a conversation 15 with Mr. Craig Livingstone? 16 A About anything? 17 Q About anything. 18 A Just general social greetings, 19 whatever. 20 Q Such as? 21 A Hi, how you doing? How's it going? 22 Q Did you see Mr. Livingstone in the 1 suite after Foster died? 2 A No. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Did you see him up in Kennedy's 6 office more after Foster died? 7 A I wasn't in Kennedy's office. 8 Q Kennedy's suite, the OEOB? 9 A I wasn't there after Mr. Foster 10 died. Is that what you mean? 11 Q Yes. 12 A No. 13 Q No? Did you ever ask Craig 14 Livingstone how he got his job? 15 A No. 16 Q Did he ever tell you? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Livingstone 19 utter the words "Hillary Clinton"? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 21 THE WITNESS: Not that I recall. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q Did you ever see Mr. Livingstone 2 talking into his watch? 3 A No. 4 Q What was your opinion of 5 Mr. Livingstone? 6 A Actually, he was a pleasant person. 7 He wasn't in our office very much, and it 8 seemed to me, from what I recall, he would 9 state his business or do what he had to do 10 and then leave. 11 Q Are you aware of Mr. Livingstone 12 ever visiting The White House residence? 13 A No. 14 Q Are you aware of Mr. Foster ever 15 visiting The White House residence? 16 A I didn't see him visit The White 17 House residence, but I was -- he told us he 18 was going to The White House residence. 19 Q And when did he tell you he was 20 going there? 21 A Oh, he worked out of there 22 sometimes. 1 Q Where did he work out of The White 2 House residence? 3 A Actually, it was not the residence. 4 It was the East Wing, and I don't know where. 5 Q Did he say who he was going to work 6 with? 7 A No. 8 Q He was going to work with Hillary 9 Clinton? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 12 THE WITNESS: Not that I know of. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did he ever leave the office during 15 the day except the day he died? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did he leave the office frequently? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: He worked out of the 20 Old Executive Office Building sometimes. 21 Sometimes he had meetings in the compound. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q What do you mean by "the compound"? 2 A The Old Executive Office Building. 3 Q Did he have a cell phone? 4 A I don't believe so. 5 Q Did he ever leave the entire White 6 House complex with Hillary Clinton during the 7 day? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 10 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q What is the East Wing? 13 A The East Wing is social offices in 14 the East Wing. There's the legislative 15 office in the East Wing. There's a whole 16 bunch of -- I think there are two floors of 17 offices, and then I believe that the 18 residence is above that. 19 Q Can you remember any conversations 20 you ever had with Linda Tripp about the 21 manila folders that you described earlier? 22 A No. 1 Q You don't know whether you had any 2 conversations? 3 A I did not have any conversations. 4 Q You're absolutely sure of that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did you ever have any conversations 7 with Linda Tripp about the grayish-brown 8 folders that you described earlier? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Grayish-brown envelopes? You like 14 that better. Did you ever have any 15 conversations with Linda Tripp about the 16 grayish-brown envelopes you described 17 earlier? 18 A No. 19 Q You don't remember one way or the 20 other? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you're 100-percent certain that 1 you never had any conversations about the 2 manila folders with Linda Tripp? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you ever have any discussions 5 with Linda Tripp where you talked about files 6 or documents kept in William Kennedy's 7 office? 8 A No. 9 Q You're 100-percent certain? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And did you ever have any 12 conversations with Linda Tripp where you 13 talked about entering information from 14 folders or envelopes, whatever source, on to 15 your computer? 16 A No, I did not. 17 Q You're 100-percent certain of that? 18 A One hundred percent sure. 19 Q And did you ever have any 20 conversations with Linda Tripp where you 21 discussed being fatigued in your hands from 22 loading information on to your computer? 1 A No. 2 Q You're 100-percent certain? 3 A Yes. Yes, I'm certain. 4 Q Did you ever complain to Linda 5 Tripp about loading information on to 6 computer at the request of William Kennedy? 7 A No. 8 Q You're 100-percent certain? 9 A Absolutely. 10 Q Did you ever have any conversations 11 with Linda Tripp where you referred to the 12 files, where you made reference to a term 13 called "the files"? 14 A I don't recall any conversation. 15 Q You're 100 percent certain of that? 16 A I don't recall any conversation. I 17 don't know what you're speaking of generally. 18 Q Did you ever make reference to 19 files in William Kennedy's office to her? 20 A No. 21 Q You're 100-percent certain? 22 A Yes. 1 Q And therefore you never made 2 reference to FBI files in William Kennedy's 3 office? 4 A I have no knowledge of FBI files. 5 Q You're 100-percent certain of that? 6 A Absolutely. 7 Q And as far as you know there were 8 never FBI files in the Kennedy suite? 9 A That's correct. 10 Q And as far as you know there were 11 never FBI summary reports in the suite of 12 offices in and around Mr. Kennedy's office? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And as far as you know there was 15 never any FBI raw data in those offices? 16 A Correct. 17 Q And as far as you know, there was 18 never any IRS data in those suite of offices 19 in and around Kennedy's office? 20 A I don't know what was in Kennedy's 21 office. I do know that there were safes in 22 there. I'm just not sure of what was housed 1 in those safes. 2 Q You don't know of any IRS 3 information? 4 A No, I don't. 5 Q You're 100-percent certain of that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you don't know of anything that 8 ever came from the FBI that ever found its 9 way into Kennedy's suite of office? 10 A No, I don't. 11 Q You're 100-percent certain of that? 12 A Yes, I am. 13 Q Did Ms. Tripp ever come up and 14 visit with you at the OEOB? 15 A Occasionally, yes. 16 Q And why did she come up there? 17 A Just to say hello or we'd go 18 outside and smoke, social visit. 19 Q She came up to say hello to you? 20 A Mm-hmm, yes. 21 Q And then sometimes you'd go outside 22 to smoke? 1 A Yes. 2 Q And about how many times? Fairly 3 frequently? 4 A No, not that frequently. 5 Q Once a day? 6 A Once a week, once every two weeks. 7 Q And how long were the smoking 8 breaks? 9 A Five minutes. 10 Q Where did you take the smoking 11 breaks? 12 A Out on the porch or the front of 13 the OEOB. 14 Q And during those smoking breaks, 15 was anyone else ever present? 16 A I don't recall anyone. 17 Q And during those smoking breaks, 18 you'd sometimes tell her what you were 19 working on? 20 A I don't ever recall talking to her 21 about what I was working on. 22 Q So you don't know one way or the 1 other? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can't remember one way or the 5 other? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't ever 8 remember talking to her about what I was 9 working on. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You're 100-percent certain of that? 12 A Yes. I can't recall ever talking 13 to her about mentioning what I was working on 14 or what I wasn't. 15 Q So you're 100-percent certain that 16 you can't recall? 17 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Is that a question? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I 21 ever -- if we ever talked about what we were 22 doing. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You're certain you don't remember? 3 A I'm certain of that. 4 Q And when you took the smoking 5 breaks you talked about personal matters? 6 A I didn't. 7 Q So what did you talk about with 8 Ms. Tripp when you took the personal breaks, 9 the smoking breaks? 10 A I don't think it was anything 11 substantive. I think it was just BS. 12 Q Well, what was the BS about? 13 A I can't remember. 14 Q Did you gossip about other people 15 in The White House? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you gossip about people out of 18 The White House? 19 A No. 20 Q Did you talk about current events? 21 A Possibly. 22 Q Did you talk about how much you 1 disliked Linda Tripp? 2 A No. 3 Q Is it your practice to take smoking 4 breaks with people you dislike? 5 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did Linda Tripp ever tell you that 9 she doesn't like you during those smoking 10 breaks? 11 A No. 12 Q In fact, you got the impression, 13 didn't you, at that time that Ms. Tripp liked 14 you? 15 A No, Ms. Tripp and I had a very 16 guarded relationship. We had a guarded 17 relationship. 18 Q So she came up to visit you because 19 she disliked you? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what her 22 motivation was. I'm sorry. 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q And she invited you on a smoking 3 break because she disliked you? 4 A I don't know. 5 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 6 Argumentative. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And you went on the smoking breaks 9 with Ms. Tripp because you disliked her? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q And you went on a smoking break 14 with Ms. Tripp because you wanted to get all 15 the dirt on all the employees down there in 16 Nussbuam's office? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 19 Lack of a predicate. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Had you ever met Gary Aldrich when 1 you were working at The White House? 2 A I don't believe so. 3 Q Dennis Sculimbrene? 4 A No, I don't believe so. 5 Q Billy Dale? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you know who Billy Dale is? 8 A I do now. 9 Q How did you find that out? 10 A The Washington Post. 11 Q Barney Brasso? 12 A No. 13 Q There were meetings in Mr. Foster's 14 office about Travel Office? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I didn't know the 17 nature of any meetings in Mr. Foster's office 18 -- I didn't know the subject matter, excuse 19 me. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you ever discuss with 22 Mr. Livingstone how he was hired? 1 A No, I didn't. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 3 answered. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I'm sorry. Did you ever discuss 6 with anyone else how he was hired? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you ever complain to Linda 9 Tripp about the new software that was put on 10 your computer? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I didn't have any 13 software on my computer. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you ever see Linda Tripp go 16 into William Kennedy's office? 17 A Yes. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q How many times did you see that? 22 A One time that I can remember, once. 1 Q Did they close the door? 2 A No. 3 Q Could you overhear the 4 conversation? 5 A No, but, actually, I joined the 6 conversation. 7 Q Why did you join the conversation? 8 A It was at the end of an evening, 9 and it was -- she was just going in to say 10 hello and I went in with her. 11 Q So you both went in and just said 12 hello and that was it? 13 A Actually, I don't think that I went 14 in right away. I think that she went in and 15 then within a few minutes I walked in, too. 16 Q Did she chat with Mr. Kennedy 17 before you walked in? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Do you know what they discussed? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know that -- 22 you know, they were just together for a 1 couple of minutes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you ever see Ms. Tripp go into 4 the office other than that and be there for 5 more than a couple minutes? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you know whether she had 8 meetings with Mr. Kennedy in his office? 9 A No. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did anyone ever tell you that? 13 A No. 14 Q Did anyone ever tell you that she 15 discussed you with Mr. Kennedy? 16 A No. 17 Q Have you learned that? 18 A When I read the deposition. 19 Q Did that refresh your recollection 20 as to whether those things ever happened? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I never knew that 1 happened. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You told Ms. Tripp if ever 4 questioned about what was going on in The 5 White House Counsel's Office that you 6 wouldn't tell the truth, correct? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I never said 9 that. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You told Ms. Tripp that if ever 12 questioned about what went on in The White 13 House Counsel's Office it was best to forget, 14 correct? 15 A No. 16 Q You said to Ms. Tripp on several 17 occasions that you had a history with 18 Mrs. Clinton, a history with Mrs. Nussbuam, 19 and that you were a loyal team player, 20 correct? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you refute that you have a 1 history with Mrs. Clinton and Mrs. Nussbuam? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Do you refute that? 7 A I don't have a relationship with 8 Mrs. Clinton. I consider Mr. Nussbaum to be 9 a friend. 10 Q But you did work with Mrs. Clinton, 11 who was then Ms. Rodham, correct? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: Ms. Rodham, yes. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q So that's a history, isn't it? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: She was a colleague. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q And she therefore worked with you 20 during a period of your history as a person 21 on oath, correct? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection as to form. 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Correct? 5 A Oh, I'm not even sure she knows who 6 I am. 7 Q But in terms of your life's history 8 she obviously worked with you at one point, 9 correct? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Will you answer that question? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did already 16 answer that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You're a loyal person, aren't you? 19 A Yes. 20 Q You're very loyal? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm not blindly loyal 1 but I would consider myself to be a loyal 2 person. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You wouldn't do anything to hurt 5 Mrs. Clinton, would you? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I can't think of 9 anything that I would do to intentionally 10 hurt anyone. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You wouldn't want to hurt 13 Mrs. Clinton, would you? 14 A I wouldn't want to hurt anyone. 15 Q And particularly Mrs. Clinton? 16 A It doesn't -- 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You still admire the Clintons as of 20 today? 21 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 22 and relevance. 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Do you still admire the Clintons as 4 of today? 5 A Certain attributes, yes. 6 Q Do you still admire Mrs. Clinton as 7 of today? 8 A I think she's very smart. 9 Q Is there any aspect of Mrs. Clinton 10 that you've come to know about that you don't 11 admire? 12 A No. 13 Q Is there any aspect of Mr. Clinton 14 that you don't admire? 15 A Other than what I mentioned this 16 morning, no. 17 Q You told Linda Tripp that if you 18 were ever subpoenaed or called upon to 19 testify in any of the Clinton matters, 20 controversy, that you would take steps so you 21 wouldn't have to testify, correct? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: No, to the contrary, 4 I've testified a million times. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q But did you ever tell Linda Tripp 7 that if ever called upon to testify in a 8 Clinton scandal matter, you wouldn't testify? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Or you'd take steps not to testify? 14 A No. 15 Q Now, when you worked at The White 16 House did you ever go out for a drink or for 17 dinner with Steven Waudby? 18 A I don't recall if it was while we 19 were at The White House, but I have been out 20 with Steven. 21 Q When have you been out with Steven? 22 A Several years ago we went out for 1 dinner several times, maybe a few of us. I 2 went out to dinner with him recently in 3 January. 4 Q The times you went out before 5 January, who was with you? 6 A I'm really not sure. I think a 7 friend of mine, Lee DeFord, might have been 8 with us once, and if anybody else was with us 9 I don't remember who it was. 10 Q Who is Rita Ford? 11 A Lee DeFord. He's a friend of mine. 12 Q And where does he work currently? 13 A DeFord & Sharp. 14 Q Where? 15 A DeFord & Sharp in Washington. 16 Q What is that? 17 A It's an interior design firm. 18 Q He's a friend of Mr. Waudby, too? 19 A No. I introduced -- he's my 20 friend. 21 Q You introduced him to Mr. Waudby? 22 A Yes. 1 Q Is he now a good friend of 2 Mr. Waudby? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q When you went to dinner in January, 7 where did you go, this January? 8 A A Vietnamese place in Ballston, but 9 I'm not sure of the name. 10 Q In Ballston, not Boston, Ballston? 11 A Ballston, Arlington. 12 Q In Virginia. Was anybody with you? 13 A Yes, there was another person with 14 us. 15 Q Who was that? 16 A A friend of Steven's. 17 Q Who was that? 18 A I think his name was Brian. 19 Q Brian what? 20 A I'm sorry. I don't know. 21 Q Does he live with Steven? 22 A Yes. 1 Q And what did you discuss? 2 A Well, that's when I sold him my 3 car, and he -- and I was getting ready to go 4 to France, and I believe I brought him some 5 tourist books in on France or I told him 6 about some books that I had on France. 7 Q And during that dinner, did you 8 discuss Linda Tripp? 9 A Not to my -- I don't recall. 10 Q You may have? 11 A I don't think that we would have 12 said -- I mean, I don't recall. That's true. 13 Q And you may have discussed this 14 lawsuit at that time? 15 A No, we did not discuss the lawsuit. 16 Q Did you ever discuss this lawsuit 17 with Mr. Waudby? 18 A No. I was told not to discuss it. 19 Q Did you ever discuss this lawsuit 20 on a Metro with Mr. Waudby? 21 A Actually, I showed him the news 22 article from the Washington Times when I ran 1 into him, on the Metro. That is the first 2 time I've seen him. 3 Q And you told him about your 4 involvement in this case? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: No. I handed him the 7 article, and I said, "Look at this. Don't 8 ask me any questions. I'm on my way to see 9 my lawyer." 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did there come a point in time when 12 you told him to go see a lawyer himself? 13 A There came a time when I asked him 14 if he would come and talk to my lawyer. 15 Q And when did that happen? 16 A End of December, maybe. 17 Q And what lawyer did he come and 18 talk to? 19 A Mr. Green. 20 Q At the time that he talked to 21 Mr. Green, Mr. Waudby had not retained 22 Mr. Green to represent him, correct? 1 A Correct. 2 Q Where did that conversation take 3 place? 4 A Sidley & Austin. 5 Q At the time that he came to talk to 6 Mr. Green he was doing that, Mr. Waudby, at 7 your request? 8 A Yes. 9 Q He wasn't seeking legal 10 representation? 11 A I don't believe so, no. 12 Q He didn't have any worries that he 13 would be called to testify in this case? He 14 didn't express that to you? 15 A No, he didn't express that to me. 16 Q And he didn't express any worries 17 that he would be called to testify in any 18 case, did he? 19 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No, he didn't. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q During that meeting that you had 1 with Mr. Green did Mr. Waudby ever say that 2 he thought he was in any kind of legal 3 situation? 4 A Legal situation? 5 Q Did he say that he had any worries 6 legally? 7 MR. FLINT: Objection. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 9 MR. GREEN: No, Mr. Klayman. We'd 10 like a moment, please. 11 Why don't Betsy and I go out? You 12 can explain it to him. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that you not 14 talk to Ms. Pond when you go out. Will you 15 commit to that? 16 MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Klayman, I'll 17 commit to that. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. 19 MR. FLINT: Mr. Waudby did retain 20 Sidley & Austin to represent him, as you well 21 know, and I just want to make it clear that 22 any questions have to be pointed before that 1 relationship was made. Unless it's clear 2 that that's the area that you're probing 3 into, we will object to it. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your contention 5 that he retained you at that meeting? 6 MR. GREEN: Yes, it's our 7 contention at that meeting. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have any 9 documents to evidence that? 10 MR. GREEN: No, we don't need any. 11 MR. FLINT: Don't need any. There 12 was a relationship made at that time that he 13 would be retained. He's also testified about 14 that, as you well know. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I ask her that 16 question, whether there was a retention of 17 your firm during that meeting? 18 MR. GREEN: Yes, you can ask her 19 that question. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: By Waudby? 21 MR. GREEN: Yes, you can ask her 22 that question. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that you not 2 talk to her about it. 3 MR. GREEN: And I already committed 4 to you that I wouldn't. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: If only it were that 6 simple. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Tell him to keep his 8 hands in his pockets, too, Mr. Klayman. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: If only it were that 10 simple. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q During that meeting that you've 13 just described with your lawyer, Mr. Green, 14 and Mr. Waudby, did Mr. Waudby hire Sidley & 15 Austin? 16 A Not in my presence. 17 Q In fact, you don't know of him ever 18 hiring Sidley & Austin, do you? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q How did you find out about that? 21 A I think my attorney told me he was 22 representing Steve. 1 Q When did he tell you that? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q Did he tell you that today? 4 A No. No. 5 Q But that wasn't discussed at that 6 meeting? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q That occurred after the meeting 11 that you found out? 12 A Actually, I was not present for the 13 entire meeting. I was asked to do other 14 things outside. 15 Q Who asked you to do other things 16 outside? 17 A My lawyer. 18 Q Were you ever advised about 19 conflict of interests issues? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever sell your car to 22 Mr. Waudby? 1 A I did. 2 Q How much did you sell it for? 3 A $5,000. 4 Q And you gave Mr. Waudby a key ring? 5 A It was -- I gave him the ring that 6 the key to the car was on, yes. 7 Q And you bought him a nice key ring? 8 A No, I did not. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Who paid for the dinner? 13 A Steven. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you have any discussions with 17 Mr. Waudby after the meeting with the 18 lawyers? 19 A No. 20 Q You're aware Mr. Waudby testified 21 in this case? 22 A Yes, I am. 1 Q Have you talked to him since then? 2 A No, I've not been permitted to. 3 Q Did you talk to him before he 4 testified in this case, after that meeting? 5 A I sold him the car after the 6 meeting. I sold him the car in January. 7 Q Gave him a good price? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I sold it for $5,000. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q And that car had a value if you 12 bought it at a dealer of about $7500? 13 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 14 THE WITNESS: No, it did not. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Had you had any other offers for 17 your car? 18 A No. 19 Q Had you tried to sell your car to 20 anybody else? 21 A I had advertised it, yes. 22 Q Where did you advertise it? 1 A I advertised it in -- I put up 2 signs in places, my work, other people's 3 work, and Steven put it on the Internet. 4 Q Do you have a copy of that ad? 5 A The copy from the Internet? 6 Q From any place. 7 A I don't think so. 8 Q You're not sure? 9 A No, I'm not sure. 10 Q Can you produce that for me, if you 11 can find it? 12 A If I can find it, I'd be happy to. 13 Q Thank you. Now, after you finished 14 your work at The White House -- what date was 15 it you left? 16 A August 1995. 17 Q Why did you leave? 18 A I was -- I wanted to accept another 19 job. 20 Q And what job was that? 21 A I went to work at the Department of 22 Justice. 1 Q How did you get that job? 2 A I interviewed -- actually, I talked 3 to some friends. I used to work at the 4 Department of Justice in the environment 5 division, and I contacted some old friends 6 and talked about what new programs they had, 7 what was available, would there be any 8 openings, would there be anything. 9 Q And how did you learn of the job? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q How did you learn of the job at the 13 Department of Justice? 14 A There wasn't a job. I was -- like 15 information -- informational interviewing 16 with people at the Department to see what 17 might be available. 18 Q Why did you want to leave The White 19 House? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Everyone was gone. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q What do you mean by "everybody was 2 gone"? 3 A Everybody was gone, but I had 4 wanted to leave The White House a long time 5 ago. 6 Q And why was that? 7 A I wanted to leave The White House. 8 I had only come there originally for six 9 months, and I wanted to get out and try to do 10 the things that I was going to do before my 11 initial plan. 12 Q You wanted to leave The White House 13 because frankly it was something that was 14 unsettling to you to work there, correct? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 17 and characterization. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A I don't believe it would be 21 unsettling. 22 Q You didn't want to be involved in 1 having to testify in front of grand juries or 2 Congress. That was one of the reasons you 3 left? 4 A No. 5 Q That's not a reason you left? 6 A No. 7 Q You wanted to leave The White House 8 because frankly there was just too much stuff 9 going on there, right? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection as to form. 11 MR. FLINT: Objection to form, 12 characterization. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You were concerned that you could 16 somehow be implicated in a Clinton scandal, 17 correct? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 MR. FLINT: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you want to leave The White 1 House because Mr. Kennedy had left? 2 A No. 3 Q Mr. Waudby? 4 A No. 5 Q Ms. Tripp? 6 A No. 7 Q Ms. Tripp had left, right? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you know why she left? 10 A She found a job at the Pentagon. 11 Q Was she fired? 12 A I can't remember how it was 13 characterized. 14 Q Who characterized it to you? 15 A I think she did. 16 Q But you had no other knowledge 17 about it? 18 A No. 19 Q She told you she had gotten a 20 promotion? 21 A No. Actually, she told me that 22 Mr. Kline had fired her. 1 Q Did she say why Mr. Kline had fired 2 her? 3 A No. 4 Q Was she mad about it? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did she tell you why she was mad 7 about it? 8 A No, not -- 9 Q She told you about this on one of 10 your smoking breaks? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And what did you say to her? 13 A Not much that I can recall. 14 Q Had you ever had any experience 15 working with Mr. Kline? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know whether Mr. Kline kept 18 files on people? 19 A No. 20 Q Linda Tripp had told you that she 21 was afraid of Mr. Kline, didn't she? 22 A No. 1 Q Linda Tripp had told you that she 2 had spoken with Mr. Lindsey about Mr. Kline? 3 A No. 4 Q Linda Tripp told you that 5 Mr. Lindsey had threatened her? 6 A No. 7 Q Linda Tripp told you that she felt 8 that an accident may befall her? 9 A No. 10 Q You have 100-percent certainty 11 about everything I just asked you? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q Crystal clear certainty? 14 A One hundred percent certainty. 15 Q Crystal clear? 16 A Crystal clear. 17 Q Razor sharp? 18 MR. FLINT: Objection, form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ask anybody at The White 21 House to help get you a job at the Justice 22 Department, give you a little push? 1 A No. 2 Q Give you a recommendation? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you call Bernie Nussbuam and 5 say hey, I want to work at Justice, can you 6 help me out? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What did you tell Bernie? 9 A I told him I had identified a job 10 and I asked if he would write a letter of 11 recommendation for me which he did. 12 Q And who did he send it to? 13 A Lois Schiffer. 14 Q Who's Lois Schiffer? 15 A She's the assistant attorney 16 general of the Environment and Natural 17 Resources Division. 18 Q Is that where you wanted to work? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And did you get a job there? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What kind of job did you get? 1 A I worked in the Legislation Policy 2 and Special Litigation Section, which was a 3 new section that was coming into being. 4 Q And who did you work with in 5 addition to Lois Schiffer? 6 A I worked with Polly Milious and 7 Louise Milkman, and there were attorneys 8 there. 9 Q Name everybody you worked with. 10 A Russell Smith, Joan Goldfarb, Jim 11 Esner, Mark Haag, Tim Dowling, Tim -- no. 12 That's all I can -- 13 Q Are those people still there? 14 A Some of them, some of them aren't. 15 Q And from time to time you would 16 talk to them about your White House 17 experience? 18 A No. 19 Q Never uttered a word to any of 20 them? 21 A No. 22 Q You didn't really want to talk 1 about your White House experience, did you? 2 A It wasn't high on my list. 3 Q It was something that was painful 4 to you, correct? 5 A Yes, it was painful. 6 Q Painful because of Vince Foster's 7 death? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Painful for other reasons? 10 A I think it all emanated out of 11 Vince's death. Any other causes were 12 probably as a result of Vince's death. I 13 don't know. And the number of investigations 14 that occurred that I had to testify at, that 15 was very painful. 16 Q Did it ever cross your mind that if 17 you continued to work at The White House that 18 this could have an effect on your future? 19 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 20 THE WITNESS: Did I ever think that 21 if I stayed at The White House? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 1 Q Yes. 2 A No, I never gave it any thought. 3 Q Did you ever think that an accident 4 could occur? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever feel threatened? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you ever feel you might wind up 9 like Vince Foster? 10 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form 11 and relevancy. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 13 MR. FLINT: And an outrageous 14 characterization. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A No. 18 Q You were very tense when you worked 19 at The White House, weren't you? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 21 answered. 22 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 1 THE WITNESS: There were tense 2 moments, but I wasn't tense all the time. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q And you weren't happy when you 5 worked there? 6 A Yeah, I was happy part of the time. 7 Q A lot of the time you weren't? 8 A There was sadness. 9 Q Now, how long did you work in the 10 Lands Division? 11 A The first time or the second time? 12 The current -- 13 Q Did you transfer from the Lands 14 Division at some point? 15 A Yes, but I worked in the Lands 16 Division many years ago and then I returned. 17 Q The second time. 18 A Okay, I worked there two and a half 19 years. 20 Q Where did you transfer? 21 A To the Criminal Division. 22 Q And why did you transfer there? 1 A The person that I succeeded was 2 going to another agency, and we had become 3 friends in the department, and she asked if I 4 was interested in interviewing for her job, 5 and I said yes and I applied for it. 6 Q Who did you work for in the 7 Criminal Division? 8 A My supervisor's name is Verna 9 Muckle, and she's the deputy executive 10 officer. 11 Q Is that where you work now? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Have you ever met Janet Reno? 14 A I shook hands with her. 15 Q You ever talk to her about 16 anything? 17 A No. 18 Q You ever do any work with her? 19 A No. 20 Q For her? 21 A No. 22 Q You ever discuss with Janet Reno 1 your White House years? 2 A No. 3 Q She ever call you into her office? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you ever discuss with Janet 6 Reno, Janet Reno's assistants, anything about 7 your White House years? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone 10 other than Betsy Shapiro anything about this 11 lawsuit at the Justice Department? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Who? 14 A My chief of staff. 15 Q And who's that? 16 A His name is Richard Rossman. 17 Q Was anyone present when you had 18 those discussions? 19 A I don't think so. 20 Q What did you tell him about the 21 case? 22 A Actually, there was a news article 1 that appeared, but I told him before that 2 that it looked like I was going to have to be 3 a witness in this case, and I wanted to give 4 him a heads up in case there was anything. 5 And shortly thereafter there was an article 6 that came out. 7 Q And what did he tell you? 8 A He didn't give me any advice. He 9 just wished me luck. 10 Q Have you ever talked to anybody 11 else at the Justice Department about this 12 case? 13 A No, I don't think so. 14 Q When you worked with Mr. Kennedy, 15 you said that you sent out letters concerning 16 people in the appointment process? You sent 17 out letters requesting information? 18 A Yeah, IRS form letters and ethics, 19 Office of Government Ethics. 20 Q Is that most of what you did? 21 A Yeah. Yes. 22 Q Did you do anything else? 1 A Answered phones. I was the 2 administrative contact for both the East Wing 3 and the West Wing. The first month I was 4 there I actually spent very little time there 5 because I was packing up things for 6 Mr. Nussbaum to return to New York. 7 Q What's the administrative contact? 8 What do they do? 9 A They meet every couple of weeks, 10 and they're told any new policies that might 11 be in effect. They handle the parking spaces 12 for the office, budget matters, just 13 administrative meetings. 14 Q You were basically the 15 administrator of the office? 16 A I guess. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Holley, can I 18 have a time check, please? 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes. It's 5:45. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: How much time do I 21 have left, Mr. Gilligan? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: You have about three 1 minutes, Mr. Klayman. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Three minutes. It's 3 nice to know you're the generation that 4 doesn't need a calculator. Tom has nine. 5 Shall we split the difference? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: That would be about 7 five. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: In the spirit of 9 cooperation. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: As we've always done 11 on this point. Five minutes. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: We can stipulate to 13 five for this session? 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What information do you have, 17 Ms. Pond, about how White House background 18 security checks are done? 19 A None. 20 Q Do you know anybody who does have 21 that information that worked at The White 22 House when you were there? 1 A I would assume the people who 2 conduct those investigations or caused them 3 to be done. 4 Q And who conducted them when you 5 were at The White House? 6 A I don't know who conducted them. I 7 really don't know. 8 Q Do you know who reviewed the files 9 related to those background security checks? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q If anyone. 13 A I would think that Bill Kennedy 14 reviewed them, and that would be all. I 15 think Beth Nolan reviewed them after Bill 16 left. 17 Q How did you learn that? 18 A I didn't know -- I mean, I didn't 19 -- how did I know that Beth did? 20 Q That Bill Kennedy did and then 21 Beth. 22 A I assumed it. 1 Q How did you come up with that 2 assumption? 3 A Because when the eyes-only 4 envelopes were delivered they must contain 5 something that was classified that they 6 didn't want to be spread around, that they 7 wanted to contain, and so I assumed that that 8 had to be information. 9 Q And you assumed that that 10 information came from the FBI? 11 A No. 12 Q You were aware that the FBI did 13 your background security check? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And you are aware that that's what 16 the FBI does? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you talked to the FBI in the 19 context of your background security check, 20 correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And they talked to some of your 1 friends? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And you're aware that you have an 4 FBI file on you, Betsy Pond, correct? 5 A I'm not aware of it, but I guess I 6 do. 7 Q You assume that there must be one? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you assume that there must be 10 one for everybody that works in The White 11 House? 12 A I never really thought about it, 13 but I guess they do. 14 Q And for people who are political 15 appointees, you understand that they also 16 have FBI files? 17 A It would make sense. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further 19 questions. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: We'd like to take a 21 short break and then have about ten minutes 22 of questioning. 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 2 video record at 5:50. 3 (Recess) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 5 video record at 5:59. 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS 7 FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION AND 8 EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q Ms. Pond, I have just a few 11 questions for you. Have you ever seen an FBI 12 file? 13 A No. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 15 foundation. 16 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 17 Q Have you ever seen documents from 18 the FBI or documents labeled as such? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 20 foundation. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 1 Q Have you ever told anybody that the 2 folders that you identified in Mr. Kennedy's 3 office were FBI files or FBI information? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading. 5 Lacks foundation. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q Did you ever say that to Linda 9 Tripp? 10 A No. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 12 lacks foundation. 13 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 14 Q You testified that you saw manila 15 folders in Mr. Kennedy's office, correct? 16 A Correct. 17 Q And you talked about a stack of 18 folders, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q About how many folders would you 21 estimate were in that stack or stack of 22 folders? 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 2 foundation. Assumes facts not testified to. 3 THE WITNESS: I would say about an 4 inch, an inch and a half. I couldn't tell 5 you how many folders would be in that. I 6 don't know. 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q And about how many stacks were 9 there, do you remember, in the office? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 11 Indefinite as to time. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q At any time. 14 A Four. 15 Q Were any of them more than an inch? 16 A Not that I can recall. 17 Q Was there at any time that you were 18 in Mr. Kennedy's office anything that you had 19 described as stacks and stacks of files hip 20 high in Mr. Kennedy's office? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 22 foundation, assumes facts not testified to. 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q You testified that you didn't 4 remember names that were on the manila 5 folders; is that correct? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 7 foundation, assumes facts not testified to. 8 THE WITNESS: I believe I testified 9 that I had not seen names on folders. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q So you didn't see any names of 12 Republicans, correct? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 14 foundation. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 17 Q And you never saw a file with the 18 name Billy Dale, correct? 19 A No. 20 Q And you never saw a file with the 21 name of Chris Emory, correct? 22 A Correct. 1 Q And you never saw a file with the 2 name William Clinger, correct? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Did Linda Tripp ever ask you what 5 the folders were in Mr. Kennedy's office? 6 A No. 7 Q You testify that you had had an 8 incident with Ms. Tripp in the West Wing 9 where she took your things out of a file 10 drawer and threw them on the floor, right? 11 A Yes. 12 Q After that happened, why did you 13 continue to go on smoking breaks with 14 Ms. Tripp when you were in the Old Executive 15 Office Building? 16 A I guess I was trying to figure out 17 -- I was trying to be one step ahead. 18 Q What do you mean when you say "one 19 step ahead"? 20 A One step ahead of the next 21 eruption. 22 Q Did you confide in her? 1 A No. 2 Q Did you tell her personal things 3 about yourself? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you tell her things about your 6 work? 7 A No. 8 Q Going back to the West Wing counsel 9 suite. You testified that you had the 10 combination that was in the safe in 11 Mr. Nussbaum's office, correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Do you remember ever looking inside 14 that safe? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you remember ever seeing file 17 folders with the name Billy Dale in that 18 safe? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you remember ever seeing file 21 folder or anything else with the name Chris 22 Emory in that safe? 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever see any documents or 3 paper that looked like billing records in 4 that safe? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 6 foundation. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: And outside of the 9 scope of direct. Mr. Gaffney seems to like 10 that objection. 11 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 12 Q How often did you have a need to go 13 into that safe? 14 A Once a week, once every two weeks. 15 Q Were you generally familiar with 16 the contents of the safe? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 18 Indefinite as to time. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Lacks foundation. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q Do you ever remember seeing a file 1 in Mr. Foster's office with the name Billy 2 Dale on it? 3 A No. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 5 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 6 Q Did you ever see a file in 7 Mr. Foster's office with the name Chris Emory 8 on it? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 12 Q Did you on your computer either in 13 the West Wing or in the Old Executive Office 14 Building ever have encryption capabilities? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 16 foundation. 17 THE WITNESS: What would that be? 18 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 19 Q Were you able to password-protect 20 files, if you wanted to? 21 A I don't know. I never did. 22 Q Did you have any programs or 1 databases on your computer, either in the 2 West Wing or in the Old Executive Office 3 Building, that were set up for inputting 4 personnel information? 5 A No. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound. 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q Were there screens that you could 9 bring up on your computer, either in the West 10 Wing or in the Old Executive Office Building, 11 that had columns or charts of some kind? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 15 Q Did you ever overhear any 16 conversations between Bill Kennedy and Marcia 17 Scott? 18 A No. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Outside 20 the scope of direct. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q Did you ever see them talking 1 together in the Old Executive Office 2 Building? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you ever hear what they were 5 talking about? 6 A No. 7 Q Did either Bill Kennedy or Marcia 8 Scott ever discuss with you a database to 9 share information with the Democratic 10 National Committee? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 12 Compound. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 15 Q You testified that the morning 16 after Mr. Foster's suicide you went into his 17 office; is that right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Were you looking for a suicide 20 note? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you ever tell anyone that you 1 were looking for a suicide note? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you ever tell Linda Tripp that 4 you were looking for a suicide note? 5 A No. 6 Q Did you ever tell anyone that if 7 you were asked what you were doing you would 8 say that you were straightening up papers? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 12 Q Do you know what the Privacy Act 13 is? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Outside 15 of the scope of direct. 16 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 17 Q You can answer. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Move to strike. 19 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 20 Q You can still answer. 21 A It's an act. That's all I know. I 22 don't know. 1 Q Were you ever briefed on the 2 requirements of the Privacy Act while you 3 were working in Counsel's Office? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 7 Q Did anyone ever tell you that the 8 Privacy Act applied to the activities of 9 Counsel's Office? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 11 Vague. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Just a moment to 14 confer. 15 (Discussion off the record) 16 MS. SHAPIRO: That's all the 17 questions I have. I think Ms. Pond's lawyers 18 have a few questions. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you her lawyer? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: In her capacity as a 21 former employee of The White House, I am. I 22 meant to refer to her personal lawyers. 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 2 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEPONENT 3 BY MR. FLINT: 4 Q Did you have discussions with 5 Mr. Green concerning whether the firm could 6 represent you and Mr. Waudby? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 BY MR. FLINT: 10 Q Did Mr. Green explain to you under 11 what circumstances the firm could represent 12 both you and Mr. Waudby? 13 A Yes, he researched it. 14 Q Did Mr. Green also inform you that 15 Sidley & Austin represents Terry Good? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Would you ever lie to protect 18 Hillary Rodham Clinton? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 20 Lacks foundation. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. FLINT: 1 Q Would you ever lie to protect 2 President Clinton? 3 A No. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 5 BY MR. FLINT: 6 Q Would you lie to protect the 7 Administration? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 BY MR. FLINT: 11 Q In sale of your car did you set a 12 price on that car at the time that you were 13 proposing to sell it? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q How did you determine what price to 16 put on the car? 17 A I checked in the Washington Post 18 for ads that were for the same car that I 19 had, then I went to the credit union, and 20 they gave me the low Blue Book and the high 21 Blue Book, and I settled in the middle. 22 Q I believe you testified you sold 1 the car to Mr. Waudby for $5,000? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did Mr. Waudby try to urge you to 4 sell it to him for less than that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And why did you reject -- 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 8 BY MR. FLINT: 9 Q Why did you reject his 10 implications? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Assumes 12 facts not testified to. 13 THE WITNESS: I told him I couldn't 14 lower it any more than that. That was the 15 price that I wanted, and that was the price I 16 was going to settle and it really wasn't 17 negotiable. 18 BY MR. FLINT: 19 Q Earlier in the questioning from 20 Mr. Klayman you were asked about whether you 21 had voted for President Bush, George Bush, at 22 one time. Do you recall that question? 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you vote for George Bush at one 3 time? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And when was that? 6 A I guess it would have been 1992. 7 Q That's when Clinton -- 8 A No, then it would have been '88. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe she thought she 10 was voting for George Bush. 11 MR. FLINT: I have nothing else. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Anybody else have 13 anything? 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Gaffney? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: No questions. 16 MR. MAZUR: No. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I have a few. 18 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 19 PLAINTIFFS 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q A few as defined by Ms. Shapiro. 22 When you saw stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office, 1 you saw them in his office on more than one 2 occasion, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You saw them frequently in his 5 office? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you don't know whether they 8 were the same stacks that you saw before? 9 A Correct. 10 Q They might have been different 11 stacks? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And you saw those stacks throughout 14 your tenure in Mr. Kennedy's office suite, 15 correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you know what encryptions are? 18 A No, I really don't know what it is. 19 Q You said you wanted to keep one 20 step ahead of Linda Tripp, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And was your intention to try to 1 get as much information from her as you 2 could? Is that what you meant by one step 3 ahead? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you mean you wanted to stay one 6 step ahead of her so you could revenge 7 against her? 8 A No, I think what I meant without 9 saying it is that I was trying to figure out 10 where she was going to pop up next. 11 Q You were curious? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And where did you think she was 14 going to pop up next? 15 A I did not know. 16 Q How frequently did you go into 17 Mr. Nussbaum's safe, the safe in 18 Mr. Nussbaum's office? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 20 answered. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I thought I just 22 answered that. 1 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer it 2 again. 3 THE WITNESS: I think I said every 4 couple of weeks. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q So you don't know what Mr. Nussbaum 7 or Mr. Foster or anybody else put in that 8 safe in the interim period? 9 A No, I don't. 10 Q You don't know what they took out? 11 A Mr. Nussbaum couldn't open the 12 safe, so I don't think he could have been in 13 it. I don't know whether Mr. Foster could or 14 not. 15 Q But Ms. Gorham could? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And Linda Tripp could? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And did Anthony Marceca have the 20 combination to that safe? 21 A No, but he could get the safe open. 22 Q How could he do that? 1 A Well, we would give him the 2 combination, and he could get the safe open. 3 Q Did he ever have to do that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Why? 6 A Because the only person who could 7 open the safe was Deborah Gorham, and if 8 Linda or I had to get into the safe, we 9 couldn't get in. 10 Q And that was for security reasons? 11 A I'm sorry, what? 12 Q Was that for security reasons that 13 it was limited just to Deborah Gorham in 14 addition to -- 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 16 Mischaracterization. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Why are you saying she's the only 19 one who could get in? 20 A I'm sorry. She was the only one 21 who get the safe to unlock, to get it to 22 function. 1 Q Why is that? 2 A It was a very difficult safe to 3 operate. 4 Q So you really couldn't do it, 5 right? 6 A No, I couldn't get it open. 7 Q You're not good mechanically? 8 A I couldn't get the safe open. 9 Nobody could but Ms. Gorham. 10 Q And the only other person other 11 than Ms. Gorham that could do it was Anthony 12 Marceca? 13 A I think that Craig Livingstone 14 could get it open, too. 15 Q You saw him in that safe sometimes? 16 A No, but I remember asking him if he 17 knew how to open safes if we ever needed him. 18 Q Did you ever ask him for help to 19 open the safe? 20 A I don't recall that I specifically 21 asked him. 22 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 1 A No. 2 Q When you opened the safe, what 3 types of things did you see in there? 4 A Folders. 5 Q What was the color, manila? 6 A As I recall, yes. 7 Q And you saw several folders in 8 there, right? 9 A There were, yes. 10 Q Did you see anything else in there? 11 A There was a thick file in there 12 that just wasn't a little folder. There was 13 a thick file in there as well. 14 Q Was it in a red well? 15 A Yes, it was sealed up. 16 Q Taped up? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And the manila folders, were they 19 taped up? 20 A No. 21 Q The manila folders had file labels 22 on them? 1 A Yes. 2 Q What did the file labels say? 3 A I really don't recall, but I think 4 that they were more -- they were national 5 security issues that would come up from the 6 Situation Room or that somebody would pass 7 along from the National Security Council. 8 Q But you don't remember what was on 9 the labels? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you see computer printouts in 12 the safe? 13 A No. 14 Q The manila folders themselves, not 15 the labels, looked like the manila folders 16 that you had seen in the office, in Kennedy's 17 office? 18 A They were the same manila folders 19 that we used for everything. 20 Q And they were the same manila 21 folders that you saw in Kennedy's office? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 1 answered. 2 MR. FLINT: Objection as to form. 3 THE WITNESS: They were the same 4 type of folders. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q What year and make was your car 7 that you sold to Mr. Waudby? 8 A It was a 1991 Honda Civic. 9 Q Was it in good shape? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Mint condition? 12 A Yes. 13 Q How many miles? 14 A Forty thousand. 15 Q Did Mr. Waudby pay you in cash? 16 A By check, yes. 17 Q Did it clear? 18 A Yes. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 20 Relevancy. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever see a suicide note in 1 Foster's office? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 3 answered. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: No further questions. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 7 video record at 6:21. 8 (Whereupon, at 6:21 p.m., the 9 deposition of BETSY POND was 10 adjourned.) 11 * * * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22