1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 -------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : -------------------------x 9 10 Washington, D.C. 11 Monday, June 21, 1999 12 Deposition of 13 JANE C. SHERBURNE 14 a witness, called for examination by counsel 15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and 16 agreement of counsel, beginning at 17 approximately 10:25 a.m. at the offices of 18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., 19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain of Beta 20 Reporting & Video Services, notary public in 21 and for the District of Columbia, when were 22 present on behalf on the respective parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 4 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 5 (202) 646-5172 6 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 7 Office of the President: 8 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 9 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 10 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, D.C. 20004 11 (202) 514-5302 12 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 13 NATALIA LEONS, ESQUIRE 14 Office of General Counsel Federal Bureau of Investigation 15 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. Washington, D.C. 20535 16 (202) 324-9665 17 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 18 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 19 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 20 (202) 434-5175 21 22 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of The White House: 3 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 4 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 5 (202) 456-5079 6 On behalf of Defendant Department of Defense: 7 ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 8 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 9 901 E Street, Northwest, Room 1034 Washington, D.C. 20530 10 (202) 514-3395 11 On behalf of Deponent: 12 BRENT J. GURNEY, ESQUIRE MICHAEL GORDON, ESQUIRE 13 BRIGIDA BENITEZ, ESQUIRE Wilmer Cutler & Pickering 14 2445 M Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20037-1420 15 (202) 663-6678 16 17 * * * * * 18 19 20 21 22 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 6 4 SHERBURNE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 5 No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachment 12 6 No. 2 - Letter, Gurney to Klayman 14 7 No. 3 - Privileged Documents Log 14 8 No. 4 - Text of Circuit Court of 72 Appeals Opinion 9 No. 5 - Congressional Committee 161 10 Report 11 No. 6 - Investigation Report 212 12 No. 7 - Western Journalism Center 311 Report 13 No. 8 - Shadow Excerpts 327 14 15 16 * * * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time on the 3 screen right now is 10:20. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 5 general counsel and chairman of Judicial 6 Watch. 7 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President, 8 Judicial Watch. 9 MR. GURNEY: Brent Gurney. I 10 represent Ms. Jane Sherburne in her personal 11 capacity. 12 MR. GORDON: Michael Gordon. I 13 also represent Ms. Sherburne in her personal 14 capacity. 15 MR. BENITEZ: Brigida Benitez. I 16 also represent Ms. Sherburne in her personal 17 capacity. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro 19 from the Department of Justice representing 20 the Executive Office of the President and the 21 FBI. 22 MS. PETERSON: Michelle Peterson, 6 1 White House Counsel's Office. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 3 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First 4 Lady. Behind me is Alex Willscher, a summer 5 associate, Williams & Connolly. 6 MS. LEONS: Natalia Leons, FBI 7 office of general counsel. 8 Whereupon, 9 JANE C. SHERBURNE 10 was called as a witness and, having been 11 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 12 as follows: 13 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Just let the record 15 reflect that we had some technical 16 difficulties this morning. We were hoping to 17 start at 9:00 a.m., but the ordinary 18 videographer, unfortunately, had critical 19 surgery last night, apparently, and the 20 current videographer's doing the best he can, 21 and we thank him for his efforts, and we're 22 going to get a new videographer around 12:30 7 1 just to make sure everything's functioning. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Ms. Sherburne, have you ever been 4 under oath before in any legal proceeding? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And when was that? 7 A I've been under oath several times 8 in connection with my service in The White 9 House. 10 Q Were you ever under oath with 11 regard to any investigation that the Office 12 of Independent Counsel conducted with regard 13 to a controversy known as Filegate? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q Do you know what I am referring to 16 when I refer to Filegate? 17 A Well, I know what I'm referring to 18 when I refer to Filegate. I don't know what 19 you're referring to. 20 Q How do you refer to it, just so we 21 make sure we're on the same page? 22 A I refer to it as the knowledge that 8 1 The White House gained in June of 1996 that 2 The White House had requested FBI files of 3 holdover or former administration employees, 4 and many of them were not in fact holdover 5 employees, and so there were FBI files in the 6 custody of The White House or background 7 summaries of those files, and the entire 8 effort to understand what happened with that, 9 why it happened, and who was involved is what 10 I think of as Filegate. Is that what you 11 think of as Filegate? 12 Q I think of it slightly differently, 13 but we understand your position and what 14 you've testified to in some of the prior 15 proceedings. I just want to make sure that 16 you understand that we're talking about the 17 acquisition of over 900 FBI files by The 18 White House, and the acquisition occurred in 19 1993, correct? 20 A I don't know the number of FBI 21 files, and I honestly don't remember when 22 they were all acquired, but I understand that 9 1 that's generally the matter that you're going 2 to be questioning me about. 3 Q Notwithstanding Judge Starr's 4 Independent Counsel investigation, where you 5 were never put under oath, where did you 6 testify under oath? 7 A On the FBI files matter? 8 Q Yes. 9 A I testified in a Senate deposition 10 and also in a deposition before the House 11 Government Reform Committee staff, and 12 actually I think there were some members of 13 the committee present during the deposition 14 as well. 15 Q So you testified on two occasions 16 under oath? 17 A That's what I recall, yes. 18 Q Any other occasions? 19 A About the FBI files matter? 20 Q Yes. 21 A Not that I recall. 22 Q Any occasions where you testified 10 1 about the controversy known as Travelgate, 2 the firing of the Travel Office staff? Did 3 you testify before other administrative or 4 judicial bodies in that controversy? 5 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 6 relevance. 7 THE WITNESS: I testified about 8 investigations related to investigations of 9 the Travel Office matter but not directly 10 about the Travel Office matter itself. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you testify about the 13 acquisition of the FBI files of Billy Dale 14 and others in The White House Travel Office 15 in the context of your Travelgate testimony? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I would have 18 testified about those matters in connection 19 with the questioning on the FBI files matter. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Where did you testify concerning 22 the Travel Office matter? 11 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q What bodies? Administrative, 4 judicial, otherwise? 5 A I did not testify concerning the 6 Travel Office matter. I testified concerning 7 investigations of investigations of the 8 Travel Office matter, and that testimony I 9 believe was the House Government Reform 10 Committee. That may have been touched on in 11 the Senate judiciary deposition, but I can't 12 recall for sure. 13 Q Are those the only occasions you 14 can recall being under oath with regard to 15 Filegate or Travelgate? 16 A I think, as I said, I wasn't under 17 oath with regard to Travelgate but -- 18 Q I understand but your investigation 19 of that matter, that's what you were under 20 oath for? 21 A That's all I can recall, yes. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 12 1 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 2 Exhibit 1. 3 (Sherburne Deposition Exhibit 4 No. 1 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q This is a subpoena which was served 8 upon you originally requiring your attendance 9 on June 10. The date of the deposition was 10 moved by agreement to today. Have you seen 11 this document before? 12 A Yes, I have. 13 Q And did you have an opportunity to 14 review the document request contained in this 15 subpoena? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 MR. GURNEY: Mr. Klayman, at this 18 point, I'd like to have our response and 19 objections contained in my letter dated June 20 18 to you marked as Exhibit No. 2. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: That will be fine. 22 MR. GURNEY: And also I'd like to 13 1 take this opportunity to note for the record 2 we have prior to the commencement of this 3 deposition provided to you documents 4 responsive to the subpoena as summarized in 5 my letter dated June 21. I'll note that the 6 letter refers to documents numbered 1 through 7 866. I actually made a handwritten notation 8 on your copy of the letter indicating that 9 documents 695 through 704 and 712 through 808 10 were removed as nonresponsive. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Were there documents 12 that you're claiming privilege on that were 13 removed or you're claiming lack of relevancy? 14 MR. GURNEY: We're not claiming 15 privilege with respect to those documents. 16 They were not responsive. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: We, however, have 18 claimed privilege over some of those 19 documents that are White House documents, and 20 we have a privilege log we can give you right 21 now. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's have that 14 1 marked as Exhibit 3. 2 (Sherburne Deposition Exhibits 3 Nos. 2 and 3 were marked for 4 identification.) 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Ms. Sherburne, when you searched 7 for documents on your own required by the 8 search, did you search or did someone else 9 search for you? 10 A It was a combination of a search on 11 my own and others assisting. 12 Q Who participated in the search? 13 A My lawyers and I did. 14 Q And the lawyers you've identified 15 here today or were there other lawyers? 16 A There were other lawyers as well. 17 Q Who were those lawyers? 18 A I don't know. They were lawyers 19 working under the direction of Brent Gurney. 20 Q Where was the search conducted? 21 A The search was conducted in my 22 office and in files of my law firm that had 15 1 been sent to outside storage and in my home. 2 Q And you've produced certain 3 documents here today, correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q We're currently copying these 6 documents. We understand that a copy was 7 made for Plaintiffs. There's a copy that you 8 kept. Does anyone else need a copy? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I would like a copy 10 if they intend to be marked as exhibits to 11 this deposition. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Does anyone already 13 have a copy? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: We don't have a copy 15 but we're willing to wait until later to move 16 things along. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Some of the documents you've 19 produced are documents which were generated 20 at The White House, correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q What was the date that you last 16 1 worked at The White House? 2 A I think my separation date was 3 January 10, 1997. I could be off a day or 4 two, but it was that second week in January. 5 Q Were these documents removed from 6 The White House before January 10, 1997, or 7 in and around the time of your last 8 separation date? 9 A It would have been in and around 10 the time of my last separation date, and by 11 these documents some of these documents are 12 documents that were prepared by my lawyers 13 when I was in The White House because I was 14 represented by personal attorneys in some of 15 these depositions and others that you've 16 already asked about. And so some of them 17 weren't my documents that were searched, but 18 there were many of my documents that were 19 searched that I did remove from The White 20 House around the time of my separation from 21 The White House in 1997. 22 Q What clearance, if any, did you get 17 1 in and around the time that you separated 2 from The White House to remove those 3 documents? 4 A I consulted the Presidential 5 Records Act at the time and conferred with my 6 staff, many of whom were departing at about 7 the same time and had questions about how to 8 handle records, and made decisions based on 9 that. 10 Q Who on your staff did you confer 11 with? 12 A At various points as different 13 people were departing The White House, they 14 would have consulted with me. I believe that 15 I consulted with at various points people in 16 the Counsel's Office who had some 17 responsibility for this, but I can't remember 18 who that was. 19 Q Who in the ordinary course would 20 have had responsibility for this at the time 21 you left? 22 A Responsibility for what? 18 1 Q To review documents to see whether 2 they could be removed from The White House 3 with the departing employee? 4 A I don't know that there was anyone 5 who had the responsibility for reviewing 6 documents with the departing employee. 7 Q So essentially you made the 8 decision yourself on what documents you could 9 and could not take when you left The White 10 House on or about January 10 of 1997? 11 A That would be right. 12 Q Was there a record left behind at 13 The White House as to which documents you 14 took with you? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And who prepared that record? 17 A It was not prepared by anyone. I 18 made a copy of the documents that I left 19 behind and took many of those with me. So 20 the record was the documents themselves. 21 Q And who, if anyone, did you give a 22 copy of documents to? 19 1 A That copy was boxed up and sent to 2 the Office of Records Management at the time 3 that I left. 4 Q Was there any kind of cover letter 5 that said what it is that you had taken with 6 you, letter, memorandum, notation? 7 A That was left behind at The White 8 House? 9 Q Well, in other words you kept a 10 copy of what it is that you took and sent it 11 to records management, correct? 12 A No, actually, it was the other way 13 around. I copied some of the things that I 14 left at The White House and took them with 15 me, and all of my files went to records 16 management. 17 Q But was there any a listing or a 18 copy made of what it is you had taken with 19 you? Were any of those two things left at 20 The White House when you left so someone 21 would know what it is Jane Sherburne left 22 with? 20 1 A I don't know. I don't know the 2 answer to that. 3 Q Does that mean you can't remember 4 or you didn't do it? 5 A It means I can't remember. I did 6 have an index, and I don't know if I left a 7 copy of it at The White House. I don't know. 8 Q What criteria did you use to 9 determine whether you could take documents 10 and whether you had to leave documents 11 behind? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q Did you ever know? 14 A Did I ever know? 15 Q Did you ever have any criteria? 16 A As I said, I consulted the 17 Presidential Records Act and made decisions 18 at the time based on what I understood that 19 act to determine. 20 Q If you were taking White House 21 correspondence and White House letterhead, 22 what criteria are there under the 21 1 Presidential Records Act that would allow you 2 to take that when you left? 3 A I don't remember. 4 Q If you were taking official 5 communications of The White House, what 6 criteria, if any, under the Presidential 7 Records Act would allow you to take that 8 document when you left? 9 A And leaving a copy behind, you 10 mean? 11 Q Correct. 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q You took these documents 14 essentially because you wanted to have a 15 record of what you did at The White House 16 with regard to the matters you worked on, 17 correct? 18 A That's probably correct. 19 Q And the reason you did that is 20 because you were concerned that somehow you 21 could be implicated in some of these 22 controversy that you worked on such as 22 1 Filegate? 2 A That's not correct. 3 Q The reason you took the records is 4 because you didn't trust The White House to 5 tell the truth after you left about your 6 involvement in these matters? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: Maybe you should just 9 ask me why I took them rather than guess the 10 reasons. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Well, I'll ask the questions. 13 A No, that's not the reason. 14 Q Indeed, at the time you left The 15 White House you felt that Bruce Lindsey had 16 not been candid with you with regard to the 17 re----s with regard to payment to Webster 18 Hubbell, correct? 19 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 20 relevance of this. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: You can respond. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. 23 1 MR. GURNEY: No, I'd like a proffer 2 as to the relevance of this. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Not in front of the 4 witness, no. 5 MR. GURNEY: Could you step out? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It bears on 7 credibility, bears on state of mind, bears on 8 the nature of the testimony we're going to 9 get today. It's clearly relevant. 10 MR. GURNEY: Whose credibility? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Credibility of the 12 witness. 13 MR. GURNEY: Ms. Sherburne's 14 credibility? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 16 MR. GURNEY: I'm not following what 17 you're saying. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to 19 argue, Mr. Gurney. I hope we have a pleasant 20 experience here. There's no aspersion being 21 cast. I just want to understand what her 22 state of mind was when she left The White 24 1 House and took these documents with her. 2 MR. GURNEY: About the documents or 3 about Bruce Lindsey? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: That was just an 5 example I was using. 6 MR. GURNEY: Well, you can ask her 7 about the documents all you want. I don't 8 understand -- 9 MR. KLAYMAN: In fact, I'll ask her 10 anything which is relevant or which may lead 11 to relevant evidence. Let the record reflect 12 if we go through this with every question you 13 may or may not like that I've posed we will 14 be moving the court for more time than the 15 six hours. This is no aspersion on 16 Ms. Sherburne. I'm entitled to test her 17 state of mind when she left The White House 18 and why she left. She's a key player. 19 MR. GURNEY: I understand that. I 20 don't understand what the relevance or the 21 significance of the question about Bruce 22 Lindsey is. 25 1 MR. KLAYMAN: The relevance is that 2 how she viewed her colleagues in The White 3 House and why she took the documents. 4 MR. GURNEY: Why don't you just ask 5 her? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It can bear on other 7 documents that may or may not have been taken 8 with her that are relevant to this case. So 9 can we continue? 10 MR. GURNEY: What's your question 11 going to be? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Look, I'm not here to 13 be interrogated by you. We'll bring the 14 witness in. If you want to throw a monkey 15 wrench into this investigation, you do it at 16 your own risk. This is a very simple 17 question. It wasn't difficult. The witness 18 could have answered it. I'm entitled to get 19 her state of mind when she left with regard 20 to removal of documents. 21 MR. GURNEY: Sure and I'm entitled 22 to know how it is it's going to lead to the 26 1 discovery of relevant, admissible evidence. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: You're not. You can 3 raise these issues because this is just a 4 discovery deposition. You can move the court 5 later and say they should can be kept out of 6 trial because it's irrelevant. You put your 7 objection on the record and we move on. 8 Can you read back the question? 9 (The reporter read the record as 10 requested.) 11 MR. GURNEY: You can answer. 12 THE WITNESS: Are you asking if 13 that's why I took documents from The White 14 House? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q No, I just asked you if at the time 17 you left The White House that was your state 18 of mind. 19 A At the time I left The White House, 20 I believe the -- my responses to that whole 21 affair were quite well known and documented, 22 and I believed that there was information 27 1 about that -- those events that I was not 2 fully informed of. 3 Q And what was the position of Bruce 4 Lindsey at the time you left The White House? 5 A Deputy counsel. 6 Q And what was your position? 7 A Special counsel. 8 Q And deputy counsel was how many 9 rungs below The White House counsel in chain 10 of command? 11 A The deputy counsel reported 12 directly to the counsel. 13 Q So he was very high up, Mr. 14 Lindsey, at the time, correct? 15 A He reported directly to the 16 counsel. 17 Q And at the time you left The White 18 House and before you knew that Mr. Lindsey 19 had had a close personal relationship with 20 the President and Mrs. Clinton, correct? 21 A His relationship with the President 22 was well known. 28 1 Q Well, I understand it's well known, 2 but this is a separate legal proceeding, so 3 if you could give us your testimony, just 4 brief. I just want to get this basic 5 information and we'll move on. 6 A That the President had a close 7 relationship with Bruce Lindsey was something 8 I and the rest of the country was fully aware 9 of. 10 Q So at the time you left The White 11 House you were very concerned because here 12 the number two person in The White House 13 Counsel's Office was not being candid with 14 you? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: At the time I left 17 The White House, I had finished the tasks for 18 which I had signed up to perform and was 19 returning to private practice because I had 20 completed my tour of duty. It had nothing to 21 do with Mr. Lindsey. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 29 1 Q My question, then, is that you 2 removed the documents because you wanted a 3 record of what your involvement was in the 4 Filegate controversy, and you didn't want it 5 to be misrepresented by people like Bruce 6 Lindsey in The White House Counsel's Office 7 after you left, correct? 8 A You've got that completely wrong, 9 Mr. Klayman. 10 Q Why do I have that completely 11 wrong? 12 A I removed the documents -- 13 actually, I didn't -- "remove" suggests that 14 I didn't copy the documents. I made copies 15 of certain documents because during the two 16 years or so that I was in The White House I'd 17 had an extraordinary experience and had been 18 involved in many various events, and I wanted 19 a personal record of some of the things that 20 I had been involved in. I would say more 21 just remembrances and if I wanted to consult 22 them at some point and recall what had 30 1 happened or if I wanted to one day say to my 2 children yeah, I really did that, then I 3 would have something in my files that I could 4 refer to. 5 And in fact, having been subjected 6 to a review of those documents in the last 7 few weeks since I received your subpoena, I 8 have to say that I can't imagine that my kids 9 would find it at all interesting and that I'm 10 not quite sure why I thought I ever would. 11 But my copying certain documents and bringing 12 them with me from The White House had nothing 13 to do with Filegate or Bruce Lindsey or 14 wanting to make sure that I had the 15 opportunity to keep the records straight, 16 period. 17 Q In fact, at the time that you left 18 The White House there was an issue, was there 19 not, about your signing a letter disclaiming 20 a statement that you had made which was 21 contrary to the statement that Mr. Lindsey 22 had made about the R----s and Mr. Hubbell, 31 1 correct? 2 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to 3 relevance. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I know 6 what you're talking about. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Mr. Lindsey and Cheryl Mills wanted 9 you to sign a letter, did they not, that you 10 had not said something which contradicted 11 what Mr. Lindsey recounted about an issue 12 concerning Mr. Hubbell and the R----s? 13 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to 14 relevance and form. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A Not that I'm aware of. 18 Q Are you saying that the documents 19 you're going to produce here today were taken 20 only as remembrances? 21 A Essentially, yes. I think those 22 were the words you put in my mouth and that I 32 1 agreed to when we started this. 2 Q So that is the criterion, based 3 upon your experience working at The White 4 House, that an official can use to take 5 documents on White House letterhead, 6 remembrances? 7 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 9 THE WITNESS: Could you read the 10 question back, please? 11 (The reporter read the record as 12 requested.) 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q What do you mean by you don't know? 16 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You're saying that's not the 19 criterion or you just don't remember right 20 now? 21 A Neither. I can't answer that 22 question as you put it to me. I don't 33 1 understand it. 2 Q I'll put it in simple terms. If a 3 White House official decides that she wants 4 to take documents for remembrances under the 5 Presidential Records Act that's okay? 6 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 7 term "remembrances" and the form of the 8 question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm using her own 10 words. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if 12 the Presidential Records Act speaks to that. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q It may? 15 A I don't know. What I do know is 16 that when I made copies of documents that I 17 was leaving in The White House I had 18 confidence that it was appropriate, after 19 having consulted with the Presidential 20 Records Act. I don't remember what the act 21 says, what provisions. I haven't looked at 22 the act since that time, so beyond that I 34 1 can't be helpful to you, I'm afraid. 2 Q Now, Harold Ickes, you worked with 3 him when you were in The White House, 4 correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And Mr. Ickes left The White House 7 after you left The White House or before? 8 A It was around the same time period. 9 Q You are aware that Mr. Ickes took 10 with him when he left The White House about 11 30 to 50 boxes of White House documents? 12 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 13 form. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know how many 15 boxes he took with him. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You know he took several boxes? 18 A Yes. 19 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 20 term "you know." 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q And how did you know that he had 35 1 taken several boxes? He told you? 2 A I can't remember. 3 Q Did Mr. Ickes ever consult you with 4 or anyone else on the criteria for taking 5 White House records from The White House? 6 MR. GURNEY: At this point I'd 7 caution Ms. Sherburne not to answer any 8 questions that may implicate an attorney- 9 client privilege or reveal the confidences or 10 secrets under the professional rules 11 involving Mr. Ickes. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q I'm not asking for the advice, just 14 whether there was contact on that issue. 15 A And what was the -- 16 Q That's not to say that I agree that 17 the attorney-client privilege was applied. 18 But this question went to whether you know if 19 Mr. Ickes ever consulted with anyone at The 20 White House, including yourself, before he 21 left with boxes of documents. 22 A I don't know that. 36 1 Q After you left The White House, has 2 Mr. Ickes ever discussed with you the 3 documents that he took? 4 THE WITNESS: Can we confer? 5 (Witness conferred with counsel) 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 A Could you either say the question 9 again or read it back? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. Read it back. 11 (The reporter read the record as 12 requested.) 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q When was that? 16 A I believe it would have been 17 sometime in 1997. 18 Q And how did the conversation arise? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Did he call you? Did you call him? 21 A I don't remember. 22 Q Did you meet with him? 37 1 A To talk about these documents? 2 Q Well, for any reason and just 3 happened to have talked about the documents. 4 A I don't remember meeting with him 5 to talk about the documents. 6 Q Did you talk about the documents 7 more than once with Mr. Ickes? 8 A I may have. 9 Q About how many times? 10 A A few. 11 Q And what was discussed during these 12 conversations? 13 A He indicated to me that he had 14 documents that were campaign records and that 15 there were some materials that were of 16 interest to -- now I'm not even sure which 17 investigation it was; he's been investigated 18 by so many different entities -- but that 19 there was interest in some of those documents 20 and that there was an issue about The White 21 House wanting to review some of them and make 22 sure that they were documents that weren't 38 1 also documents that The White House wanted to 2 have a copy of. And so the discussion was 3 about that and how he should cooperate with 4 The White House in making sure that they had 5 whatever they thought they needed. 6 Q Why did you have the discussion 7 with him, with Mr. Ickes? 8 A I'm not sure I can answer that. I 9 don't know. 10 Q Did you raise the issue or did he? 11 A I honestly don't remember. 12 Q What did you tell Mr. Ickes? 13 A What I just said, that he should 14 work with The White House to make sure that 15 they have what they needed. 16 Q Did you tell Mr. Ickes that you as 17 well had taken documents from The White 18 House? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Mr. Ickes revealed that he took 21 documents to protect himself from The White 22 House? He was concerned they were going to 39 1 make him the fall guy? 2 A No. 3 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 4 Mischaracterizes the testimony. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that when Mr. Ickes 9 left The White House he was not chosen as 10 chief of staff, correct? 11 A Mr. Ickes is not chief of staff, 12 has never been chief of staff. 13 Q Right, and he was upset about that, 14 correct? 15 A I'm not going to characterize how 16 he felt. 17 Q He expressed that to you, correct? 18 A That he was upset about not being 19 chief of staff? 20 Q He was upset that he was passed 21 over and not given that position? 22 A No, I wouldn't say that that's what 40 1 he had told me. 2 Q Shall we not use the word "upset"? 3 He was disappointed? 4 A I don't know that he said he was 5 disappointed, either. 6 Q What did he say? 7 A I believe our conversations about 8 that subject had more to do with the 9 circumstances surrounding the way he learned 10 of the decision that he was not going to be 11 chief of staff. 12 Q Expressed his displeasure of the 13 way he learned? 14 A I don't remember him expressing 15 displeasure about the way he learned as I 16 remember it was more of a factual discussion. 17 Q And what did he say? 18 A I don't remember precisely. 19 Q Do you remember anything? 20 A Not beyond what I've told you. 21 Q Did he tell you anything to the 22 effect that he took these documents so he 41 1 could have a record of what he did at The 2 White House in case anyone asked questions? 3 A No, not at all. 4 Q You assumed that that's the reason 5 he took the documents, correct? 6 A No, not at all. 7 Q Did you tell Mr. Ickes to return 8 all those documents to The White House? 9 A I didn't know what the documents 10 were. What I told Mr. Ickes is that he 11 should work with The White House to figure 12 out what they thought they needed. 13 Q You weren't concerned that 14 Mr. Ickes might have taken official White 15 House documents out of The White House when 16 he left? 17 A I believe Mr. Ickes told me that he 18 had consulted with someone in Counsel's 19 Office about what he should take and what he 20 shouldn't and that I -- he didn't say 21 anything to me that led me to believe that he 22 hadn't followed that advice, and so, no, I 42 1 wasn't concerned. 2 Q Who did he consult with? 3 A I don't know. He said someone in 4 the counsel's office. 5 Q Who in the ordinary course would he 6 have consulted with? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q When you were in The White House 9 Counsel's Office, who was in charge of 10 clearing documents? 11 A I don't know that there was someone 12 in charge of clearing documents. 13 Q Well, who would have dealt with the 14 issue at all? 15 A Of the Presidential Records Act? 16 Q The issue of whether you can take 17 documents on White House letterhead or 18 stationery out of The White House when you 19 leave. Who would have been involved in that 20 issue in any way? 21 A I believe in the early days that it 22 would have been -- I have a recollection of 43 1 consulting with someone who is in the 2 Counsel's Office named Marvin Chris----, but 3 he was no longer in the Counsel's Office at 4 the time that I left or that Harold left, and 5 beyond that I don't know who or if anyone in 6 the Counsel's Office was an expert on the 7 Presidential Records Act. 8 Q You were advised by The White House 9 to contact Mr. Ickes about the documents he'd 10 took to coordinate various issues concerning 11 those documents, correct? 12 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 13 form. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A No. 18 Q That was the reason you talked to 19 him about the documents, to make sure The 20 White House knew what he had, correct? 21 A No. 22 Q Was there any aspect of that in 44 1 your talking to Mr. Ickes about the 2 documents? 3 A What do you mean by that? 4 Q To coordinate so The White House 5 knew what it is Ickes took so they could then 6 do whatever needed to be done? 7 A I don't think I have anything to do 8 add to what I've already told you. I don't 9 remember any more about the conversation with 10 Mr. Ickes and the documents than what I've 11 described. 12 Q Did you talk to The White House 13 about this issue? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q You're not sure? 16 A I don't remember doing so. I don't 17 think so. 18 Q Do you remember when George 19 Stephanopoulos left The White House? Was 20 that before or after you left The White 21 House? 22 A I can't remember. 45 1 Q It was after the elections in 1996, 2 correct? 3 A I can't remember. I assume so. 4 George wouldn't have left before the 5 elections, but I can't remember. 6 Q Now, you've had discussions with 7 Mr. Stephanopoulos since you left The White 8 House? 9 A Have I spoken to him? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Yes, a few times. 12 Q What do you mean by a few? 13 A Maybe three, four times. 14 Q And how did you talk to him? Was 15 it by telephone, in person? 16 A Both. 17 Q And during those discussions you 18 discussed matters related to your White House 19 experience? 20 A Loosely related. 21 Q What do you mean by "loosely 22 related"? 46 1 A I spoke to him about his post-White 2 House work as that may have related to The 3 White House. I spoke to him -- I saw him a 4 few times at ABC in the studios when I 5 appeared on one of the Sunday talk shows and 6 he was also a guest, and we would have spoken 7 in a holding room, and I'm sure that at that 8 time we would have spoken about the subjects 9 that we were both addressing on the Sunday 10 talk show which would have been related to 11 White House matters. 12 Q The subject that you were 13 addressing on the talk show, that was ABC's 14 This Week? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And you touched on issues related 17 to FBI files on that appearance? 18 A Possibly. 19 Q And you discussed with 20 Mr. Stephanopoulos that whole issue, the FBI 21 files issue? 22 A No. No, I -- I think what I 47 1 discussed with Mr. Stephanopoulos would have 2 been more focused on Starr's investigation 3 and to the extent that there was any mention 4 of FBI files it would have been that that was 5 another dry hole, that Starr had reached 6 another event that had turned out to be much 7 ado about nothing as opposed to something 8 serious that would have been legitimate for 9 Starr to be pursuing. 10 Q So it's your view that the FBI 11 files matter was much ado about nothing? It 12 calls for a yes or no. 13 A My view was that Ken Starr's 14 investigation and the politicization of the 15 issue was much ado about nothing. I never 16 had the view that actually having possession 17 of FBI files of people who were not employed 18 by The White House was much ado about 19 nothing. 20 Q So your opinion was that Starr's 21 investigation was not genuine; it was 22 political? 48 1 A At that point in time, I think my 2 view was that Starr's investigation of all 3 these matters was political. I actually 4 thought that his investigation of the FBI 5 files matter -- when I was in The White House 6 I thought his investigation was somewhat 7 helpful because we all wanted to understand 8 what had happened. It was probably the issue 9 that I dealt with Starr over about which we 10 had the least amount of contentious dealings, 11 adversarial conduct. It was something where 12 at the time The White House was just as 13 anxious as Starr was to get to the bottom of 14 the matter and to understand it. 15 At the end of the day, all of the 16 issues that I was aware of that Starr had 17 been investigating while I was in The White 18 House turned out not to reflect any 19 misconduct on the part of the President or 20 the First Lady, and that's what I was 21 discussing with -- on that talk show that 22 day, and I believe I had a brief conversation 49 1 with George about that in the holding room. 2 Q Do you remember what month that 3 was, approximately? I won't hold you to 4 exact dates. Sometime in the spring of '97, 5 after you left The White House? 6 A I think it may have been in '98. 7 Q And before you went on that talk 8 show, you did talk with people at The White 9 House about your appearance, correct? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q You would have done that in the 12 ordinary course, correct? 13 A Sometimes I did and sometimes I 14 didn't. I wouldn't say there was an ordinary 15 course. 16 Q Who did you talk to at The White 17 House after you left about doing appearances 18 on TV? 19 A Sometimes I would talk to Lanny 20 Davis. Occasionally, I would talk to Lanny 21 Brewer. There may have been others, but 22 those would have been the two people that I 50 1 would have consulted. 2 Q So on this appearance where 3 Filegate was likely discussed you probably 4 talked with Davis or Brewer? 5 A You keep saying that Filegate was 6 discussed was -- 7 Q I said "likely." 8 A -- was probably -- even "likely 9 discussed" is probably -- "discussed" is the 10 term. Filegate was not discussed. It was 11 thrown into a list of areas that Starr had 12 looked at and had found or appeared to have 13 found no misconduct. So "discussed" puts a 14 little bit more meat on the conversation than 15 actually existed. 16 Q Well, what I'm saying is before you 17 went on TV shows after you left The White 18 House you generally touched base with people 19 in The White House like Davis and Brewer and 20 discussed what may be raised so you would -- 21 A That's not what I said. 22 Q This is another question. 51 1 A Okay, good, go ahead. 2 Q Right? I mean, as a matter of 3 courtesy you would talk to them and say I'm 4 going to go on this show and they may ask me 5 about FBI files, they may ask me about 6 Travelgate, here's what I'm going to say, and 7 they'd give you advice on what you might say, 8 correct? 9 A No. 10 Q But you would tell them that you 11 might be discussing these issues as a matter 12 of courtesy? 13 A I believe what I said was that 14 occasionally when I got a request to do one 15 of these programs I might consult -- 16 sometimes I did; sometimes I didn't -- with 17 people in The White House, and there may or 18 may not have been discussions about what 19 topics would likely be covered in the course 20 of that particular Sunday show, and we would 21 -- if I did consult with any of these folks, 22 we likely would discuss some of those topics. 52 1 I don't remember ever having a substantive 2 discussion with anyone in The White House 3 about the FBI files matter in preparation for 4 a talk show. 5 Q In preparing for some of the talk 6 shows that you did after you left The White 7 House you did sometimes talk with 8 Mrs. Clinton, correct? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 MR. GURNEY: Join. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q How many times have you talked with 15 Mrs. Clinton since you've left The White 16 House? 17 A Quite a few. It's probably in the 18 neighborhood of 15 or 20. 19 Q Were those all telephone 20 conversations or did you sometimes talk in 21 person? 22 A It was both. 53 1 Q About how many times have you met 2 with her? 3 A Excluding Christmas parties, White 4 House social functions, that sort of thing? 5 Q That's fine. 6 A Three to five. 7 Q And where did those meetings take 8 place? 9 A In The White House. 10 Q Where in The White House? 11 A Two or three in the map room and 12 one in the living room in the residence. 13 Q Was anyone present during those 14 meetings other than you and Mrs. Clinton? 15 A At one of them, my son was present. 16 Q When was the last time you spoke 17 with Mrs. Clinton? 18 A It was about three weeks ago. 19 Q Did you tell her that you'd been 20 subpoenaed to testify in this lawsuit? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you communicated that to The 54 1 White House? 2 A Well, The White House is sitting 3 right here. 4 Q Well, you can just say yes or no. 5 A Yes. 6 Q And who in The White House did you 7 communicate that to? 8 A I've had conversations with Shelly 9 Peterson, who's sitting here and representing 10 The White House, and I don't know if I 11 communicated to her or she -- I'm not sure 12 how the communication arose, but, yes, I've 13 had communications with her since I've been 14 subpoenaed about the fact that I'm here 15 today. 16 Q With Ms. Peterson? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Anybody else at The White House 19 that you've discussed that with? 20 A That I've discussed -- had a 21 discussion with about this deposition? 22 Q Having been subpoenaed to testify 55 1 today. 2 A I told Doug Sosnick about the fact 3 of the deposition today. 4 Q When did you tell him that? 5 A About a week ago. 6 Q And what specifically did you tell 7 him? 8 A That I was going to be appearing in 9 a deposition in the Judicial Watch matter. 10 Q And what else did you tell him? 11 A That's it. 12 Q Why did you tell him? 13 A Why did I tell him? Sosnick is a 14 friend. He said what's going on? We were 15 talking about the Bob Woodward book, and I 16 mentioned to him that in the course of that 17 whole conversation about what was going on in 18 my life that I had been diverted from my 19 private practice and spending much more time 20 than I wished I had to preparing and 21 reviewing documents in connection with the 22 subpoena. That was the context. 56 1 Q What is Mr. Sosnick's position? 2 A I think his title is counselor to 3 the President. 4 Q And what are his duties and 5 responsibilities? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q What do you understand them to be? 8 A I don't have an understanding. 9 Q This conversation took place three 10 weeks ago? 11 A With Sosnick? 12 Q Yes. 13 A No, last week. 14 Q Did it occur before or after 15 Woodward's book was made publicly available? 16 A It must have been after. 17 Q Have you ever seen an advance copy 18 of Woodward's book? 19 A No. 20 Q What did Sosnick tell you? 21 A Sosnick told me that he was 22 traveling with the President and the First 57 1 Lady in Europe. He told me -- the 2 conversation was somewhat disjointed because 3 he kept losing the connection, as I recall, 4 and that was about it. It was a brief 5 conversation. 6 Q He just called to tell you he was 7 traveling in Europe? 8 A No. You asked me what he told me. 9 He told me he was traveling in Europe. 10 Q So you called him? 11 A I called him, I think, the week 12 before. We were playing telephone tag. We 13 talk periodically, and I think -- I don't 14 know if he was returning my call or if he was 15 initiating a call, but I know I had called 16 him a few days earlier than that, and I 17 assumed he was returning that call. 18 Q Who broached the issue of your 19 testimony in this lawsuit, you or Sosnick? 20 A I did. 21 Q And what did you tell him? 22 A Just what I told you. 58 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and 2 answered. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You say you discussed Woodward's 5 book. Did you discuss anything in that book? 6 A We discussed briefly the portions 7 that had been excerpted in the Post on last 8 Monday, a week ago. 9 Q And what did you say about that? 10 A I told him that I was surprised to 11 read about those conversations because the 12 conversations that I had had with Woodward on 13 those subjects had been off the record and 14 that -- or that I was quite sure the second 15 one hadn't; I was pretty sure the first 16 conversation had been. And I told him that 17 Woodward had called me the week before the 18 book came out to alert me that the Post was 19 going to be excerpting portions of the book 20 and those conversations and that he was -- 21 wanted to let me know that he actually hadn't 22 broken the understanding that we had about 59 1 the terms under which I talked to him about 2 those subjects but that I would likely think 3 so when I read the excerpts. And I told 4 Sosnick about that conversation with 5 Woodward. 6 Q So you had gotten permission from 7 The White House to talk to Woodward off the 8 record? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 10 MR. GURNEY: Join. 11 THE WITNESS: Is that a question? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Yes. 14 A No. 15 Q In that Woodward book, and I'm 16 going to ask you some questions about it -- 17 A Really. 18 Q You probably guessed, right? But 19 in that book you discussed the FBI files 20 issue on certain parts, and did you get The 21 White House's permission before you talked to 22 Woodward about that, to talk off the record, 60 1 anybody at The White House? 2 A Well, I take issue with your 3 characterization that in that book I 4 discussed the FBI files with Woodward because 5 I don't -- I can't take responsibility for 6 what he's written in his book. I did discuss 7 the general subject of the FBI files matter 8 with Woodward, and I did not discuss my 9 conversations with Woodward with The White 10 House before I had them. 11 Q When did you have the conversations 12 with Woodward? 13 A It was last summer. 14 Q And where did the conversations 15 take place? 16 A In my office and I think there was 17 one over the phone. 18 Q Was anyone present during these 19 conversations? 20 A No. 21 Q How long was the conversation in 22 your office? 61 1 A A couple hours. 2 Q Did you take notes? 3 A No. 4 Q Was the conversation recorded? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Woodward recorded it? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Did you record it? 9 A No. 10 Q Did you ask him for a copy of the 11 tape? 12 A No. 13 Q You told Woodward you were going 14 off the record? 15 A From time to time. 16 Q You went on the record for some 17 things but were off the record for other 18 things? 19 A I went on the record for nothing. 20 Q So to be sure that Woodward didn't 21 publish anything you kept telling him this is 22 all off the record and you periodically 62 1 advised him of that? 2 A The terms of the interview were 3 that it would be on background and that there 4 may be certain times when I would ask him to 5 go off the record or tell him that if he 6 wanted to pursue a certain subject I would do 7 so only off the record, and he agreed to 8 those ground rules. 9 Q But you're saying you never went on 10 the record with him? 11 A No. As a matter of fact, he called 12 me a couple months ago and asked me if he 13 could put everything that I told him on the 14 record, and I told him -- I think I said drop 15 dead, something to that effect. 16 Q In that recitation that he does of 17 your conversations, there are certain rather 18 colorful words that are used. Did he make 19 those up? 20 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 21 form of that question and vagueness. You 22 have to point her to specific passages. 63 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q The F-word is used frequently. You 3 don't use the F-word, do you? 4 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 5 relevance of that. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You seem too nice for that. 8 A You got me wrong, Larry. 9 Q Was there anything in writing that 10 you were off the record with Woodward? 11 A No. 12 Q And the second conversation you had 13 with him, was that the one you just recounted 14 where you told him to drop dead? 15 A No. 16 Q That was a different conversation? 17 A Right. 18 Q The first meeting, was that 19 initiated by Woodward, or did you initiate 20 it? 21 A It was initiated by Woodward. 22 Q And he called you or how did he 64 1 contact you? 2 A He called me. 3 Q And what did he say to you? 4 A He told me he was writing a book on 5 the legacy of Watergate through five 6 Presidents. He described the book, described 7 what he hoped to examine in the book, why he 8 thought it was important, and said that he in 9 the course of his research had come to 10 recognize that it would be useful to spend 11 some time talking to me because I had managed 12 investigations during my term in The White 13 House, and he asked if he could come and sit 14 down and interview me. 15 Q And what did you say? 16 A I can't remember if I agreed at 17 that time or if I told him I wanted to think 18 about it, but eventually I agreed to do it. 19 Q So you called him back? 20 A I don't know if I called him back 21 or I agreed at the time. But I communicated 22 to him at some point that I was willing to 65 1 sit down and talk to him. 2 Q Did you communicate with him in 3 writing? 4 A No. 5 Q Communicate through an 6 intermediary? 7 A No. 8 Q So it's likely that you called him 9 back and told him you'd proceed? 10 A Unless I told him at the time that 11 he called me. I just can't remember. 12 Q And you told him it would have to 13 be background and off the record? 14 A Those were the ground rules. 15 Q Between the time that Woodward 16 called you and asked for you to meet with him 17 and when you agreed to meet with him to talk 18 to him about your experience at The White 19 House, did you talk to anybody at The White 20 House and alert them that Woodward had called 21 you? 22 A I may have. 66 1 Q Who did you talk to, Mrs. Clinton? 2 A No, I've never talked to her or the 3 President about talking to Woodward. 4 I can't remember for sure. 5 Q Do you remember generically who you 6 would have called in terms of position at The 7 White House? 8 A No. 9 Q You called Sidney Blumenthal? 10 A No. 11 Q You didn't like to deal with 12 Sidney? 13 A I didn't have -- he began after I 14 left so I didn't have a relationship with 15 Sidney. 16 Q Right. Your reaction was just now 17 I would never call Sidney Blumenthal? 18 A I don't know Sidney Blumenthal. 19 Q Did you call Paul Begala? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you call Mike McCurry? 22 A No. 67 1 Q Did you call John Podesta? 2 A I don't think so, no. 3 Q David Kendall? 4 A I don't think so. 5 Q Ann Lewis? 6 A I don't remember if I talked to 7 anyone, but I don't think it would have been 8 Ann? 9 Q James Carville. 10 A No. 11 Q Erskine Bowles? 12 A No. 13 Q If you remember, please let us 14 know. 15 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just asking her, 17 that's all. 18 MR. GURNEY: I'm just objecting. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to ask the 20 question again, so you might be able to think 21 about it at lunch. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 68 1 Q Now, at the time that you had the 2 second conversation with Woodward, how long 3 after the first conversation? You had the 4 first meeting in your office and how long was 5 it until you had the second conversation, 6 where you discussed things with him on 7 background? 8 A The second conversation that I had 9 with him was also a meeting, and that would 10 have -- I don't know, a couple weeks later, 11 maybe. Maybe as long as a month. I don't 12 remember. 13 Q And where did that take place? 14 A In my office. 15 Q Was anyone present besides you and 16 Woodward? 17 A No. 18 Q Did he record that conversation as 19 well? 20 A Did I? 21 Q Did he? 22 A Did he, yes. 69 1 Q Did you ask him for a copy of that 2 tape? 3 A No. 4 Q Did he give you a copy of that 5 tape? 6 A No. 7 Q And how long was that meeting? 8 A Again, I don't remember. It may 9 have been a few hours. 10 Q Did you have any subsequent 11 meetings or conversations with Woodward where 12 you conveyed to him information about your 13 experience at The White House? 14 A I had a -- I believe I had a phone 15 conversation -- I'm not sure if I may have 16 met with him a third time briefly. I know I 17 met with him at least twice. I may have met 18 with him a third time, and there may have 19 been a brief phone conversation, but that's 20 the best I can recall. 21 Q Before meeting with Woodward, did 22 you seek any legal advice as to whether you 70 1 could talk with him? 2 A Any legal advice? 3 Q Yes. 4 A No. 5 Q During your conversations with 6 Woodward, did you say I can't discuss this, 7 it's covered by attorney-client privilege or 8 work-product privilege? Did you ever say 9 that? 10 A There were times when I said that, 11 yes. 12 Q That's quite clear from the tape, 13 that it will be clear what you said you 14 couldn't discuss because of attorney-client 15 or work product? 16 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 17 of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 19 your question. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Well, so, if we were to obtain 22 Mr. Woodward's tapes, we would hear you say I 71 1 can't discuss this; it's covered by 2 attorney-client privilege? 3 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 4 of the question. Lack of foundation as to 5 what she knows is on the tapes. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Please respond. 8 A I don't know what's on his tapes. 9 There were periods in the conversation where 10 I believe we did -- you know, the subject of 11 privileges came up. We spent a lot of -- not 12 a lot of time. We spent some time talking 13 about the 8th Circuit decision, and we would 14 have discussed privileges at that time. 15 Q The Eighth Circuit decision which 16 found that in fact you could not assert a 17 privilege with regard to conversations with 18 Mrs. Clinton? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Mischaracterization. 22 MR. GURNEY: Join. 72 1 THE WITNESS: I don't have the case 2 citation, but it would have been the case 3 that dealt with the -- in the 8th Circuit 4 that dealt with my grand jury debriefing and 5 some notes that a member of my staff took 6 during an interview. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you a copy 8 we're going to ask the court reporter to 9 mark. We'll also make other copies. Exhibit 10 4, which is an 8th Circuit opinion dated 11 filed April 9, 1997 before Judges Bowman and 12 Wollman, circuit judges, and Kopf, district 13 judge, Case No. 96-4108, In re Grand Jury 14 Subpoena Duces Tecum. 15 (Sherburne Deposition Exhibit 16 No. 4 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Is that the matter to which you're 20 referring? 21 A Yes. 22 Q So you discussed that with Woodward 73 1 and you told him that I could discuss these 2 things because the 8th Circuit has ruled that 3 I don't have these privileges? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I may have discussed 8 with Woodward the general topic of making the 9 decision to challenge the Independent 10 Counsel's request for these records. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q But it was that 8th Circuit 13 decision that gave you comfort you could 14 discuss matters with Mr. Woodward off the 15 record? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. GURNEY: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: I certainly was aware 19 that the 8th Circuit decision had addressed 20 the question of the attorney-client privilege 21 with respect to communications with the First 22 Lady. 74 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q But the decision itself gave you 3 comfort that you could discuss your White 4 House experience off the record with 5 Mr. Woodward and not violate any attorney- 6 client confidences, correct? 7 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 8 THE WITNESS: I understood this 9 decision to find that in the context in which 10 it was raised that there was not a privilege 11 that attached to the communications that I 12 had had with Mrs. Clinton in the 8th Circuit 13 and that the notes that were related to those 14 conversations had subsequently been turned 15 over to the Independent Counsel. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Did you go on background with Bob 18 Woodward because of your discussing attorney- 19 client information with him? 20 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that 22 I discussed any attorney-client privileged 75 1 information with Bob Woodward. I certainly 2 didn't intend to. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Now, you've had an opportunity to 5 read the chapters of his book where you're 6 mentioned, correct? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Is there anything in what you read 9 which is inaccurate? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 11 of the question. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Which you view as inaccurate? 14 A Anything in the chapters in which 15 I'm mentioned? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Woodward appears to have obtained 18 information from a variety of sources, and I 19 don't know if information that he got from 20 various people may have been accurate or 21 inaccurate from their perspective. You know, 22 there were certainly things in the book that 76 1 I thought were inaccurate. I think he 2 referred to me as petite. I thought that was 3 inaccurate. There may have been -- 4 Q Well, you look petite to me. 5 A There may have been other 6 references that I would take issue with along 7 the way. 8 Q But other than that, that's all you 9 can remember right now? 10 A Well, you'd have to show me the 11 book and ask me specific questions. 12 Q The issue of whether you're petite 13 is all that strikes you? 14 A That's the only thing that comes to 15 the top of my head at the time, but if you 16 have particular passages that you want to ask 17 me about, please do so. 18 Q We will do that. Have you 19 complained to Woodward since you saw his 20 book? 21 A No, I haven't. 22 Q Have you retained legal counsel to 77 1 take any action against him? 2 A No. 3 Q When you met with Woodward, did he 4 tell you that his writing of this book was 5 supported by the editors of the Washington 6 Post? 7 A I don't remember him saying that, 8 no. 9 Q You were aware that he was a 10 reporter for the Washington Post at the time 11 he met with you? 12 A I'm not sure I actually knew his 13 status. 14 Q Did he ever tell you that he was 15 going to publish portions of his book in the 16 Washington Post? 17 A He told me that last week or the 18 week before last. 19 Q Did you talk to him right before 20 publication? 21 A Let's see. It was published in the 22 Washington Post last Sunday, Monday, and 78 1 Tuesday, and he called me the preceding 2 Thursday or Friday. 3 Q And what did he tell you when he 4 called you? 5 A I think I already told you that. 6 He told me that he was -- that portions of 7 conversations that I had discussed with him 8 that I had with Mrs. Clinton would be 9 excerpted in the Post on Monday. He was 10 quite sure when I read them -- I don't know 11 if he said he was quite sure. He suspected 12 that when I read them I would believe that he 13 had breached our understanding of the ground 14 rules, and he wanted to explain to me why 15 that wasn't so. 16 He said that the conversation that 17 I had talked to him about in which 18 Mrs. Clinton reacted to a column that Joe 19 Kline had written and published in Newsweek, 20 he said that her reaction to that column was 21 "famous" was the word he used, that he had 22 heard it from many different people, and that 79 1 since he had heard it from many different 2 people he decided to go ahead and put it in 3 my mouth. 4 And when I asked him what that 5 meant -- it seemed a little strange to me 6 since I didn't give him anything that he 7 could take out of my mouth -- I believe he 8 said that he didn't think it was anything I 9 needed to worry about because the 10 conversation was so famous. 11 And then with respect to the second 12 conversation he acknowledged that it had been 13 off the record to the extent that I had 14 described it. He wanted to reassure me that 15 he had triangulated was his word that 16 conversation and had gotten the conversation 17 from at least two other sources, and when I 18 questioned him about that he said, you know, 19 that I may have told others about the 20 conversation, that I didn't know that others 21 weren't present in the room where 22 Mrs. Clinton was having the conversation with 80 1 me, and what else did he say? 2 He told me that he had gotten the 3 chief usher in The White House to speak to 4 him on the record about the search of The 5 White House residence and that while I had 6 described that event generally that he had 7 been able to obtain a pretty explicit 8 description and confirmation of that event 9 from that individual. I think that was about 10 it. There may have been more to the 11 conversation, but those are the highlights. 12 Q And in response to him, you made 13 some explanation but you obviously said more 14 than just that one reaction, given what he 15 just told you. What did you say to him? 16 A I conveyed to him that he was 17 making me very nervous, that this didn't 18 sound good to me, that if he was calling me 19 to tell me that when I read it I would think 20 he broke the deal, that that must mean that 21 it looked like I had -- was the one who had 22 given him all this information. 81 1 And he said well, I'll just wait 2 and see, and I said we'll have to wait and 3 see. We'll wait and see. We'll wait and see 4 was about how the conversation went. 5 He asked me that if I had any 6 concerns or problems with the way he had 7 dealt with me in the book if I would let him 8 know first and I said that I would, although 9 I haven't. I wanted to talk to him -- I 10 wanted to get through this deposition before 11 I spoke to him. 12 Q Why is that? 13 A Because I didn't want to have to 14 testify about my conversation with Bob 15 Woodward in this deposition. 16 Q Will you come back? 17 A No. 18 Q Now, you told him that he'd broken 19 the deal during that conversation? 20 A I didn't know that he had, and so, 21 no, I didn't tell him that he had. I told 22 him it sounded -- it made me uneasy and that 82 1 it was hard for me to imagine that he hadn't. 2 Q But that's your position as of 3 today? Having now read it, your view is he 4 did break the deal, correct? 5 A Having now read it and seeing how 6 much of what he wrote he puts in my mouth and 7 knowing that I never authorized him to put 8 anything in my mouth, you know -- I mean, he 9 may have some explanation for why that's not 10 breaking the deal. It sounded to me as if, 11 when he called me a few months ago and asked 12 if he could put all of this on the record and 13 I told him that he could not, I suggested to 14 him that he show me the passages that he 15 wanted to put on the record, and he declined 16 to do that. 17 And I said to him at that time that 18 if he thought it was important to 19 authenticate the book to be able to put me on 20 the record then he should find a way to show 21 me what he wanted to use. 22 And when I then read what he had 83 1 written, I wondered whether he had understood 2 me to say yes when I said no in response to 3 his question about putting me on the record. 4 Q So I take it he did attribute words 5 to you that you did not say, at least in 6 part? 7 A You'd have to show me a specific, 8 you know, specific words that you're 9 referring to. There may be things that I did 10 say but didn't expect to see quotes around 11 based on the ground rules that we had agreed 12 to, but I'd have to see the specific passage 13 that you're referring to. 14 Q I'm not asking you for the specific 15 passage. We'll go through that, but you do 16 remember thinking, when you read it, I didn't 17 say that, at least in one area? 18 A In passages where he had me in 19 quotes? 20 Q Correct. 21 A Yes. 22 Q And that was your impression on 84 1 more than one occasion? 2 A I would have to go through the book 3 and, you know -- I hope you're not going to 4 do this with me. I have a bad feeling that 5 you may intend to, but I would have to go 6 through the book passage by passage. 7 Q Has anyone from The White House or 8 on behalf of The White House since the 9 publication of Woodward's book told you that 10 you violated an attorney-client privilege or 11 any other privilege with The White House or 12 any of the people that worked in The White 13 House? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you anticipate that anyone will 16 do that? 17 A I don't believe so. 18 Q Did the President or Mrs. Clinton 19 contact you and say you violated our 20 confidence? 21 A No. 22 Q Any other representative say that? 85 1 A No. 2 Q Did Mr. Sosnick say that? 3 A No. 4 Q So no one from The White House has 5 said that? 6 A To me? 7 Q Correct. 8 A No. 9 Q And no one who used to work with or 10 at The White House has said that to you? 11 A Who used to work with or at The 12 White House? No. 13 Q When I say with, somebody like 14 James Carville? 15 A No. 16 Q So when you called Sosnick were you 17 calling him to tell him I'm giving you heads 18 up as to what may be in Woodward's book? Is 19 that the gist of why you called him? 20 A I called Sosnick after I spoke to 21 Woodward, before the excerpts were in the 22 Post, to talk to him about the conversation 86 1 that I'd had with Woodward but I didn't reach 2 him. 3 Q And then you were ultimately able 4 to talk to Sosnick? 5 A That phone conversation that I 6 described earlier, that's right. 7 Q And during that phone conversation 8 you told him what was happening with 9 Woodward, correct, just generally speaking? 10 A Generally speaking, I did. As I 11 said, the conversation was interrupted 12 because of the connection a few times, as I 13 recall. So it wasn't a terribly coherent 14 communication. 15 Q And you told Sosnick to express 16 your concern to the President and 17 Mrs. Clinton? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Something to that effect? 21 A You're telling me that I did or are 22 you asking me if I did? 87 1 Q Yes, did you? 2 A No. 3 Q You didn't say please tell them 4 that Woodward broke the deal? 5 A No. 6 Q You do intend to talk to Mr. and 7 Mrs. Clinton and tell them that Woodward 8 broke the deal, correct, at some point? 9 A In the future? 10 Q Yes. 11 A No. 12 Q Why is that? 13 A I sent Mrs. Clinton a note a few 14 days ago in which I communicated as much as I 15 want to communicate on that subject. 16 Q And what was in the note? 17 A I told her that I had agreed to 18 talk to Woodward about her because he came in 19 with an attitude about her that was 20 extraordinarily harsh and that I decided to 21 take him on because I thought that there was 22 some potential that his book could be 88 1 important and that it would be unfortunate if 2 it conveyed an impression of her that was 3 without the dimension of her that I had come 4 to know and respect. So I said to her that I 5 had decided to take him on and that I did 6 indeed talk to him about the conversation 7 that she and I had had about the Joe Kline 8 article, that Woodward had said that it was a 9 famous conversation, that he had decided to 10 put it into my mouth, and that, as she well 11 knew, that the dialogue was made up. 12 Q The dialogue that Woodward had 13 concocted? 14 A Had created, yes. And I told her 15 that I was very sorry if I had caused her any 16 embarrassment, that my intentions were good, 17 my judgment to believe in Woodward's 18 professionalism was not, and that was that. 19 Q So now you remember that there was 20 one passage, at least, this Kline passage, 21 where he made up words and put them in your 22 mouth, Woodward? 89 1 A The dialogue that Woodward 2 describes or has in my mouth and hers is not 3 the dialogue -- does not resemble what I 4 recall of the conversation. I'm not sure I 5 remember the dialogue of the conversation but 6 that wouldn't have been mine. 7 Q Did you explain in that note to 8 Mrs. Clinton why you hadn't sought her 9 approval to talk to Woodward in advance? 10 A No. 11 Q That was implicit in what you said? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q What did Mr. Sosnick say to you 14 when you told him that you were being deposed 15 in this lawsuit, the Judicial Watch lawsuit? 16 A I think it was just a one word, 17 ugh. 18 Q Ugh? 19 A Ugh. 20 Q What does ugh mean coming from 21 Mr. Sosnick? How did you take that? 22 A Ugh. You know, ugh. I don't know, 90 1 ugh. 2 Q What did ugh mean to you? 3 A What did ugh mean to me? How 4 unpleasant. Oh, yuck. That doesn't sound 5 like fun. Gee, I bet you can think of better 6 things to do. That was what I understood. 7 Q Now, let's go back to that Green 8 Room encounter with Stephanopoulos -- 9 MR. GURNEY: Excuse me? 10 THE WITNESS: What color? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The Green Room you had an encounter 13 with Mr. Stephanopoulos. 14 A Oh, you know it's green because 15 you've been there. 16 Q People call it the Green Room? 17 A Right. 18 Q Do you know why those rooms are 19 called green rooms? 20 A Isn't it green? 21 Q I don't know. I forgot. But in 22 the Green Room, when you encountered 91 1 Mr. Stephanopoulos, was this the time that he 2 went on TV and talked about an Ellen Romisch 3 strategy on This Week? That was on February 4 8, 1998? 5 A I don't remember. An Ellen what? 6 Q Romisch strategy? 7 A No, I don't remember that. 8 Q You do remember, however, 9 Mr. Stephanopoulos going on TV on This Week 10 and saying White House allies are whispering 11 about an Ellen Romisch strategy. That was 12 when J. Edgar Hoover gathered FBI files on 13 Republicans during the Kennedy 14 Administration. Do you remember that? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you remember Stephanopoulos 17 going on TV and saying that The White House 18 was going to destroy anybody who took a 19 hypocritical position in the Lewinski matter? 20 A No. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 92 1 Q Did you ever have a conversation 2 with Stephanopoulos about anything remotely 3 related to that? 4 A To what? 5 Q To these statements. 6 A What statements? 7 Q These statements were made -- 8 A About Ellen somebody? 9 Q I'm paraphrasing what he said on 10 February 8, 1998, but did you ever have any 11 discussions with anyone about The White House 12 gathering files on people during the Lewinski 13 scandal or retaliating against people who 14 were adverse to it? 15 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 16 form of the question. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Anything that is even remotely 19 related to that. Did you ever discuss that 20 with Stephanopoulos or anybody else? 21 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 22 form of the question on the grounds and 93 1 vagueness and compound question. It's 2 incoherent. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. Incoherence is in 5 the eye of the beholder. You can respond. 6 A I'm afraid the beholder doesn't 7 find it coherent, either. 8 Q Do you remember any kind of issue 9 having arisen as to whether The White House 10 was keeping files about people during the 11 Lewinski scandal? 12 MR. GURNEY: Same objections. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 14 anything like that. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you ever discuss anything 17 related to FBI files with Stephanopoulos 18 after you left The White House? 19 A Nothing other than what I've 20 already testified about. 21 Q Have you ever had any conversations 22 about FBI files or summary materials with 94 1 Harold Ickes since you've left The White 2 House? 3 A I don't believe so. 4 Q Did you ever have any conversations 5 with Mac McClarty since you've left The White 6 House? 7 A I may have seen Mac at a social 8 event at The White House, but it would have 9 been just hi, how are you, no substance. It 10 would have been less than 15 seconds. 11 Q Did you ever have any conversations 12 with Leon Panetta since you've left The White 13 House? 14 A Yes. 15 Q About how many? 16 A I had one conversation that I 17 recall just with him and then probably -- and 18 then I had conversations on a conference call 19 in which he participated from time to time. 20 Q Did you discuss anything related to 21 the FBI files issue with Panetta since you 22 left The White House? 95 1 A No. 2 Q Same question with regard to John 3 Podesta. Did you have any conversations with 4 him since you've left The White House? 5 A About the FBI files matter? No. 6 Q Have you ever had any conversations 7 since you've left The White House with Bill 8 Kennedy? 9 A About FBI files? 10 Q Anything related. 11 A No. 12 Q Same question pending and I'll use 13 some names. Craig Livingstone? 14 A No. 15 Q Anthony Marceca? 16 A This is since I left The White 17 House? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No. 20 Q Mari Anderson? 21 A No. 22 Q Bernard Nussbaum? 96 1 A No. 2 Q You're sure? 3 A Mm-hmm. Yes. 4 Q Bruce Lindsey? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you talked to Lindsey since 7 you've left The White House? 8 A I don't believe so. 9 Q Marcia Scott? 10 A No. 11 Q Maggie Williams? 12 A No. 13 Q Betsy Pond? 14 A No. 15 Q Deborah Gorham? 16 A No. 17 Q Linda Tripp? 18 A No. 19 Q Have you talked with Kennedy since 20 you've left The White House? 21 A I may have run into him at a 22 Christmas party or some event since I left 97 1 The White House, but I can't remember for 2 sure. 3 Q Did you discuss anything about your 4 White House years with him? 5 A The conversations with people who 6 have left The White House tend to be doesn't 7 it feel great not to be there any more, and 8 we typically talk about what we're doing now 9 that makes us feel like we're under less 10 stress than we were when we were there. 11 Q Now, in the times that you've met 12 with Mrs. Clinton since you've left The White 13 House, you have discussed issues related to 14 some of the Clinton controversies? We'll 15 call them controversies. We'll use the Rick 16 Kaplan approach to the Clinton scandals and 17 call them controversies. Have you discussed 18 anything about that with her? 19 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 20 form of the question and relevance and 21 overbroad. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Join that objection. 98 1 THE WITNESS: I don't recall ever 2 talking to her about the FBI files matter 3 since I left The White House. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Have you ever discussed with her 6 since you've left whether The White House 7 violated the Privacy Act in the last six and 8 a half years? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you discussed with her whether 11 The White House was keeping files on people, 12 notwithstanding FBI files but just files on 13 people? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you discuss with Mrs. Clinton 16 since you've left The White House issues of 17 document production in the various ongoing 18 investigations, Congressional, Independent 19 Counsel, and otherwise? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you discuss with her the 22 results of the trial of Billy Dale and the 99 1 other Travel Office workers since you've left 2 The White House? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you discuss with her Ken Starr 5 since you've left The White House? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And what did you discuss with her 8 about Mr. Starr? 9 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form 10 and relevance. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 14 THE WITNESS: The conversations 15 would have had nothing to do with the FBI 16 files matter. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Well, Starr was investigating the 19 FBI files matter and presumably still is, 20 correct? 21 A I don't know what he's doing. 22 Q Do you know of anyone who actually 100 1 testified under oath before the grand jury on 2 FBI files in Starr's investigations? 3 A I don't know one way or the other 4 what they've done on that investigation. 5 Q There came a point in time when 6 Mr. Starr visited The White House and talked 7 to the First Lady for about nine minutes on 8 Filegate, correct? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I believe I read 11 press reports to that effect. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Did you ever discuss with 14 Mrs. Clinton what Mr. Starr asked or what she 15 said? 16 A No. 17 Q Did you know he was coming before 18 you read about it in the press, coming to 19 discuss Filegate? 20 A I believe so, yes. 21 Q How did you learn about that? 22 A She told me. 101 1 Q And where were you at the time that 2 she told you? 3 A I think we were in the map room in 4 The White House. 5 Q This was during the meeting after 6 you left? 7 A That's right. 8 Q So this does refresh your 9 recollection that you did discuss some aspect 10 of the FBI files matter after you left with 11 Mrs. Clinton? 12 A We didn't discuss the FBI files 13 matter. 14 Q But you knew Starr was coming to 15 discuss that, correct? 16 A I knew Starr was coming. I can't 17 remember now even what she told me the 18 subject was. I know since I've looked at 19 documents and refreshed my recollection in 20 preparation for this deposition that I 21 believe that was the time that he came for 22 nine minutes to talk about FBI files or maybe 102 1 it was even just Craig Livingstone. I can't 2 remember for sure. But we didn't discuss 3 anything other than the fact that it was 4 going forward. 5 Q Did you discuss with her what she 6 would say to Starr about FBI files? 7 A No. 8 Q After she had that encounter with 9 Starr, that nine-minute encounter, did you 10 ever discuss that with her again? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you ever discuss it with Mandy 13 Grunwald or anybody else? 14 A Or anybody else? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I never discussed it with Mandy. 17 Q Mandy Grunwald has testified in 18 this case. Are you aware of that? 19 A No. 20 Q And I'm just paraphrasing, but she 21 said she had a discussion with Mrs. Clinton 22 right after Starr's meeting, and Mrs. Clinton 103 1 told her well, you know this guy's political 2 because if he was really into the substance 3 of the Filegate issue he would have stayed 4 for more than nine minutes? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 6 mischaracterizes. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you ever have any conversation 9 with anybody to that effect? 10 A Not that I recall, no. 11 Q Did you find it strange that Starr 12 stayed only for nine minutes? 13 A No. 14 Q Why is that? 15 A Because -- 16 Q Because that's all this scandal 17 warrants, right? 18 A Mrs. Clinton's involvement in the 19 Filegate matter always seemed to me to be 20 somewhat farfetched, and it didn't surprise 21 me at all that Starr would find no more than 22 nine minutes worth of questions to ask her. 104 1 Q Are you aware that the questioning 2 was done over tea? 3 A No. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q What did you discuss with 7 Mrs. Clinton about Starr? 8 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 9 time frame. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: The conversation she 11 identified before I went through this series 12 of questions. 13 THE WITNESS: Since I left The 14 White House or at that meeting in the Map 15 Room? 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q At that meeting, yes, in the Map 18 Room. 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Now, when you had these various 21 meetings with Mrs. Clinton, can you tell me 22 when they occurred, roughly speaking, the 105 1 meetings that you had after you left The 2 White House? 3 A Well, one was about three weeks 4 ago. 5 Q And where was that? 6 A That was in the Map Room. 7 Q And was anyone present? 8 A That was the one where my son was 9 present. And there was a meeting, I believe 10 it was shortly after I left The White House. 11 So it would have been early 1997. 12 Q And where was that? In the Map 13 Room as well? 14 A No. That one was in the living 15 room in the residence. 16 Q Was anyone else present? 17 A No. 18 Q During these meetings, did 19 Mrs. Clinton jot down some notes from time to 20 time? 21 A Not that I recall. 22 Q But she is a note taker, isn't she? 106 1 She sometimes takes notes? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 3 the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I've 5 seen her take notes. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You are aware that Mrs. Clinton 8 knows how to type? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 THE WITNESS: That she knows how to 12 type? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Yes. 15 A I don't know that I knew that. I 16 certainly have never thought about it. 17 Q You are aware that she used a 18 computer from time to time? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 20 of the question. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 107 1 A I don't know what her practices 2 were with respect to the use of a computer. 3 Q You are aware that she had a laptop 4 computer during the period you were at The 5 White House? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 7 of the question. 8 MR. GURNEY: Join. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know that. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know of anyone who ever 12 searched computers to see if Mrs. Clinton 13 used computers on matters relevant to 14 responding to subpoenas in various legal 15 proceedings? 16 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 17 form of the question. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You don't know one way or the 22 other? 108 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't remember that 3 anyone -- I don't remember whether any 4 computer that she may have ever used, if she 5 ever used one, was ever searched in 6 connection with responding to requests from 7 various investigations. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You, Jane Sherburne, never made any 10 such order at The White House to search 11 Mrs. Clinton's computers? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 13 the question. Assumes facts not in evidence. 14 MR. GURNEY: Join. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A I issued directions to members of 18 The White House office, including the office 19 of the First Lady, many, many times to search 20 for records that were responsive to 21 subpoenas, and I believe the definitions of 22 the records always included computer records, 109 1 and so to that extent I may have issued some 2 kind of an instruction that would have gone 3 to every employee of The White House office, 4 whether that resulted in searching something 5 of Mrs. Clinton's I have no knowledge of or 6 even if she had anything to search. 7 Q Except for that one instance where 8 Judge Starr, his office, asked you and your 9 colleague to search The White House living 10 quarters you never really got involved in 11 what documents, if any, Mrs. Clinton had the 12 residence? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 MR. GURNEY: Join. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I 17 understand your question. Except for what? 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Wasn't it your domain, you, Jane 20 Sherburne, head of the controversy team? 21 We'll get back into the specifics. Right now 22 I think you know what I'm talking about. It 110 1 wasn't your role to order a search of The 2 White House residence for documents that may 3 be responsive to various legal proceedings? 4 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 5 form. 6 THE WITNESS: The document 7 instructions that I issued were typically to 8 White House staff who worked in the official 9 spaces of The White House, and the residence 10 -- the personal materials of the President 11 and Mrs. Clinton would not have been captured 12 by my instructions. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q That was within the purview of 15 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton's private attorneys at 16 Williams & Connolly, correct? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: The "that" being? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Searching for documents of a 21 personal nature in the residence. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 111 1 THE WITNESS: I would not receive 2 subpoenas from the Independent Counsel for 3 personal records of the President and 4 Mrs. Clinton. Those subpoenas typically went 5 to Williams & Connolly. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q But also it was not within your 8 purview as a special White House counsel to 9 order a search of The White House residence. 10 That was left to the President's lawyers at 11 Williams & Connolly, correct? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: Personal records were 15 the responsibility of personal counsel; 16 official records were the responsibility of 17 official counsel. And I would issue an 18 instruction to White House employees, 19 officials -- official employees to retrieve 20 official records. 21 If there was a companion subpoena 22 -- sometimes there wasn't. Sometimes a 112 1 subpoena would just come to The White House. 2 If it came to The White House only and was 3 for official records, except to the extent 4 that there may be official records in the 5 residence, I wouldn't do anything in the 6 residence. But that's except to the extent 7 that there may be official records in the 8 residence. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q What I'm saying is suppose that 11 official records were taken to the residence. 12 How could you, Jane Sherburne, who was in 13 charge of the scandal defense team, confirm 14 that those official records in the residence 15 were produced to an appropriate authority? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 17 MR. GURNEY: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: In the course of 19 handling the document requests and subpoenas 20 that we got over many months, my practice was 21 to issue an instruction to White House 22 employees, and sometimes it was the entire 113 1 Executive Office of the President, which 2 would have been several hundred more people, 3 to search their files and to produce any 4 responsive material and to indicate to people 5 that if they had any questions or needed some 6 help in searching their materials that they 7 should call and we'd try and provide them 8 some assistance. 9 And so that was how we undertook 10 the searches, and to the extent that there 11 may have been official records in various 12 parts of The White House, we relied on the 13 people who received those instructions to 14 search the records and produce them to the 15 people who were responsible for reviewing 16 them and getting them on to the 17 investigators. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q But who in The White House 20 Counsel's Office was actually responsible for 21 going into the residence to make sure that 22 any White House documents there that were 114 1 responsive to requests in various legal 2 proceedings were in fact produced? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 MR. GURNEY: Objection. Assumes a 5 fact that hasn't been testified to concerning 6 documents in the residence. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 THE WITNESS: Could you read the 10 question back, please? 11 (The reporter read the record as 12 requested.) 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know that 14 there were any documents -- official, you 15 know, White House documents of the sort that 16 were being requested that would have been in 17 the residence. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Well, what I'm saying is that if, 20 and this is hypothetical, obviously, there 21 were official records that were taken to the 22 residence and they were responsive to a 115 1 subpoena in the various Clinton 2 controversies, your office relied on the good 3 faith of Mr. and Mrs. Clinton to produce 4 those documents? You didn't go in there? 5 You didn't send anybody in there to look for 6 the documents? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the 8 form. 9 THE WITNESS: I certainly never 10 would have expected the President of the 11 United States to spend his time searching 12 through his own records for documents that 13 would have -- that would be terribly 14 inappropriate. There are others who are 15 designated for those kinds of tasks. As far 16 as -- I don't know that there were official 17 records kept in the residence. I have no 18 information that there were, never had 19 information that there were official records. 20 Mr. Kendall and I communicated 21 regularly about the various requests that 22 were coming in from Congressional committees 116 1 and from the Independent Counsel, and, you 2 know, he was generally aware. Although I 3 can't say he was aware of every single 4 request, he certainly would have been 5 generally aware of the types of documents 6 that were being searched for, and if there 7 were official records that existed in The 8 White House, I believe that it would have 9 fallen to Mrs. Clinton's staff or, you know, 10 to, you know, search whatever official space 11 might be considered for whatever should be 12 produced or could be responsive to a 13 particular request. 14 (Discussion off the record) 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Tape is rolling 16 at 12:18. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read the last 18 question back? 19 (The reporter read the record as 20 requested.) 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Why would it have fallen to 117 1 Mrs. Clinton's staff? 2 A Because the instruction from me 3 would have gone to Mrs. Clinton, would have 4 gone to, you know, every employee in The 5 White House office, and again I wouldn't 6 expect Mrs. Clinton to search through her own 7 records personally, given her status and her 8 duties, and so she has a staff that assists 9 her in whatever she does, and I would have 10 assumed that her staff would have assisted in 11 reviewing her records for responsive 12 material. 13 Q Mrs. Clinton's staff was also in 14 charge with looking for documents that were 15 responsive to the President in The White 16 House residence? 17 A To the President? No, the 18 President -- the President's staff would have 19 been responsible for that. I also -- I 20 believe that when these requests went out to 21 various people they did go to the President's 22 immediate office as well as the First Lady's 118 1 office, so they would have gotten those 2 requests as well just like others in The 3 White House and their staffs would have 4 responded. 5 Q What I'm trying to understand is 6 who was responsible for searching for 7 documents generally in The White House 8 residence? Suppose that a subpoena went out 9 and it asks for documents that applied to 10 both Mr. and Mrs. Clinton together. Whose 11 staff would look for documents in the 12 residence? 13 A And it was a subpoena to The White 14 House, or are you talking about a personal 15 subpoena. 16 Q A subpoena to The White House? 17 A A subpoena to The White House, 18 everyone would get an instruction, and then 19 -- you know, about what to search for, what 20 to look for. You know, I don't know who 21 searched the homes of any of The White House 22 employees for responsive documents, but their 119 1 offices would have received the requests and 2 presumably, for the President and the First 3 Lady, their staffs would have executed the 4 search for those responsive documents. 5 Q Inside the residence? 6 A Inside their -- maybe I don't 7 understand what you're getting at. 8 Q Let me just try to put it in a 9 simple way and you can phrase the question. 10 But clearly there have been instances over 11 the last six and a half years where documents 12 were found in The White House residence, one 13 example the Rose Law Firm billing records. 14 Now, suppose White House documents 15 had been taken from The White House working 16 quarters to the residence. As the person in 17 charge of responding to these document 18 requests when you were there in The White 19 House Counsel's Office managing the 20 controversy team, how would you have 21 instructed the residence to look for 22 documents that may be responsive? 120 1 A I would not have instructed the 2 residence to look for documents that may have 3 been responsive. I never instructed anyone 4 to specifically search their residence for 5 responsive documents. The request came out 6 for official documents and people responded 7 to that request. 8 The billing records are actually an 9 interesting example because those were 10 records, as you know, that were created -- 11 they were not official White House records. 12 They were created prior to the Clinton 13 administration. 14 They ended up in the residence, 15 which I regarded as personal space. They 16 were taken to the East Wing of The White 17 House, which was official space, and when 18 they were in official space was when they 19 were located and determined to be responsive 20 to a White House subpoena in addition to, you 21 know, six or seven other outstanding 22 subpoenas. 121 1 So that's actually probably a good 2 example in some respects to use because it 3 was something that became quite directly an 4 interest of The White House when it was found 5 in the official space of the East Wing. 6 Q Well what I'm trying to say is, 7 what assurances, what checks and balances, if 8 any, did The White House have in responding 9 to subpoenas in the various legal proceedings 10 involving the Clinton controversy to prevent 11 official records that were responsive from 12 going to The White House residence as a way 13 to avoid complying with these document 14 requests? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 MR. GURNEY: Join. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, boy, I have 19 absolutely no indication that that ever 20 happened, but I -- you know, but I -- if 21 there was a document request that came in and 22 it said, you know, we want documents from the 122 1 files of and would list 30 different people, 2 as they often did, including the President 3 and Mrs. Clinton, then each of those 30 4 people would get an instruction from me, 5 including the President and Mrs. Clinton, 6 which I would typically send over to David 7 Kendall, and say we've gotten this request 8 for official records. Search your files. 9 Make sure that you've got everything 10 responsive and give it back to me. 11 So if there were files of 12 officials, particularly officials who were 13 represented by private counsel, as obviously 14 the President and Mrs. Clinton were -- there 15 were, you know, several White House staff who 16 had their private counsel -- it would not be 17 unusual for me to direct the official request 18 to the private counsel and request that they 19 work with their client to ensure that the 20 official records would be produced. And so 21 that's how the responsibility would have 22 fallen out. 123 1 Q So David Kendall and Williams & 2 Connolly would be responsible to work with 3 the Clintons to make sure that any official 4 records taken from the working quarters of 5 The White House to the residence were 6 produced? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MR. GURNEY: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: Whatever David's 11 obligation would be would be completely 12 dependent on the specific requests in the 13 specific subpoena. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q But that would be the division of 16 authority, generally speaking? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. GURNEY: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: I can't actually say 20 that without understanding what the specific 21 request would be. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 124 1 Q Well, and again I'm just trying to 2 get an idea how it worked, and let's say 3 hypothetically that there were documents 4 responsive to the subpoena issued by the 5 Independent Counsel in the Filegate 6 controversy and let's say hypothetically 7 those documents were located in Vince 8 Foster's office and they were White House 9 documents and let's say Mrs. Clinton visited 10 Vince Foster's office and took those 11 documents back to the residence to work on 12 them. 13 Now, how would you know that those 14 documents which were responsive to a subpoena 15 by the Office of Independent Counsel were 16 ever produced to the Office of Independent 17 Counsel? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 19 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 21 of the question. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 125 1 THE WITNESS: I'm having trouble 2 with the hypothetical. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Put more simply, suppose 5 Mrs. Clinton lifted the documents from 6 Foster's office that were responsive to the 7 Office of Independent Counsel, took them to 8 her residence so they'd never be produced. 9 How would you learn whether those documents 10 were actually ever produced? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 12 of the question. 13 MR. GURNEY: Join. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A The hypothetical is so far removed 18 from any reality that I was remotely familiar 19 with that I can't answer it. 20 Q Well, the reality is, and I'm 21 trying to get to that reality, you, Jane 22 Sherburne, don't know if those kinds of 126 1 things ever happened, do you, other than the 2 fact that you trust Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 5 MR. GURNEY: Join. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know if any 7 of the 400 and some or whatever employees of 8 The White House had documents that they 9 didn't produce. The requests went to 10 individuals. Individuals responded with our 11 assistance, if they needed it, and that was 12 how we conducted those searches. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Let me try again. As a fundamental 15 question here, was there any way for you in 16 The White House Counsel's Office to confirm 17 that any White House documents that were 18 taken to the residence that were responsive 19 to subpoenas in legal proceedings were ever 20 produced? 21 A I think I've described what the 22 process I used has been. 127 1 Q Well, let's try it again. I did 2 not understand what you said. 3 A If there was a specific request for 4 documents from Mrs. Clinton or the President 5 or, say, Leon Panetta, I would prepare an 6 instruction that would go to each one of 7 them. Typically, I would forward the 8 requests of the President and the First Lady 9 to Mr. Kendall, and it would describe what 10 the records were that were being sought and, 11 you know, offer assistance, guidance, 12 whatever, in looking those records. 13 It was then up to the individual 14 and/or his or her private counsel to 15 determine whether there are any responsive 16 documents and if there were to give them to 17 me. That was how I conducted the response to 18 document requests. 19 Q So in the case of Mr. and 20 Mrs. Clinton, David Kendall was expected to 21 search The White House residence for any 22 official White House documents that were 128 1 responsive to subpoenas? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to 5 answer your question any differently than I 6 have. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Well, it's a different question. 9 The responsibility to look for any White 10 House documents taken to the residence that 11 were responsive to legal subpoenas fell 12 within the purview of Mr. Kendall, correct? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: The responsibility 15 for searching for official records was, in 16 the first instance, directed to officials. 17 Okay? And they would respond to those 18 subpoenas either with the assistance of their 19 private counsel, by seeking the assistance of 20 someone on my staff, or searching themselves. 21 I never had any mechanism in place 22 to go into the home of Leon Panetta and make 129 1 sure that any official records he may have 2 taken, of which I know of none, I quickly 3 add, you know, were actually produced in 4 response to an official subpoena. If 5 Mr. Panetta got the subpoena, he would direct 6 his staff or he personally would look through 7 whatever space he thought he may have 8 official records responding to the subpoena. 9 The President and the First Lady in 10 theory would have been no different. If they 11 get an official request for documents, their 12 staffs would have searched the official 13 spaces. As a courtesy, my practice was to 14 provide -- if the documents -- if the request 15 went specifically to documents in their 16 possession, my practice would have been to 17 send an instruction to Mr. Kendall, and if 18 there were responsive records that he wanted 19 to assist them in locating or reviewing, he 20 would do that. I don't know how else to 21 answer your question. That was the way I did 22 it. 130 1 Q Well, just to clarify, there was no 2 mechanism for you in The White House 3 Counsel's Office or anyone else in the 4 official working White House to send people 5 into the Clintons' residence to search for 6 official documents other than to rely on the 7 Clintons and their counsel to look for the 8 documents? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: There were certain 11 instances where there were official logs that 12 may have been kept by the usher's office or 13 by the Secret Service that would have been in 14 the residence that we may have accessed. But 15 The White House and my staff didn't have any 16 capability and never did go into the homes of 17 any of the people whose documents have been 18 requested to confirm that there were no 19 official records in their homes. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q When you say the homes of any of 22 the people, you're including Mr. and 131 1 Mrs. Clinton? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q And you're including The White 4 House residence? 5 A That's their home. 6 Q Now, do you know of anyone ever 7 searching the residence for any documents 8 responsive to subpoenas for White House 9 documents? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 11 of the question. It's overbroad and vague. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 16 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the 17 question? 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you know of anyone who ever went 20 to The White House residence of the Clintons 21 to look for White House documents responsive 22 to outstanding subpoenas in the various 132 1 Clinton controversies? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MR. GURNEY: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: Do I know of anyone 5 who ever -- I don't know that anyone didn't. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q My question was do you know of 8 anyone who did? 9 A Search the residence for documents 10 responsive to an official subpoena that 11 didn't come from -- that was not directed to 12 the President or Mrs. Clinton personally? 13 Q Correct. 14 A Other than the one occasion that I 15 searched the residence, I am not aware of any 16 White House official, but there may have been 17 -- I don't know. I'm not aware nor would I 18 in the normal course have been aware of how 19 anyone searched their private residence for 20 documents responsive to an official subpoena. 21 Q Are you aware of the President's 22 lawyers conducting any such search in the 133 1 residence? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Meaning Williams & Connolly. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Could we have a 6 moment, please? 7 We'll allow her to answer yes or no 8 to that question. 9 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the 10 question? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Can you read it 12 back? 13 (The reporter read the record as 14 requested.) 15 THE WITNESS: Any such search? I'm 16 sorry. I need to understand again what you 17 mean by "such search." 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Again, people looking for White 20 House documents that were requested under 21 subpoena in the residence. 22 A Subpoenas to The White House, not 134 1 to them personally? 2 Q Correct. 3 A Okay. And the question one more 4 time? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read it back? 6 (The reporter read the record as 7 requested.) 8 THE WITNESS: Understanding that 9 such documents refers to documents responsive 10 to a subpoena to The White House, the 11 answer's no. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Subpoena or document request. The 14 answer's still no? 15 A I don't remember. I don't think 16 so. 17 Q Your response would be the same 18 with regard to lawyers for Mrs. Clinton who 19 happen to be the same lawyers at Williams & 20 Connolly? 21 A Just so I understand where we are 22 in this record. This is -- I'm feeling 135 1 confused. 2 Q Let me see if I can just maybe put 3 it all together. You don't know of any 4 lawyers for Mr. and Mrs. Clinton, whether 5 they're Williams & Connolly, Skadden, Arps, 6 or anybody else who ever searched The White 7 House residence for official White House 8 documents that were responsive to a subpoena 9 or document request in a legal proceeding? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 11 of the question and the breadth of the 12 question and the vagueness of the question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 A Let me try it -- I'd rather put it 16 in my words than yours. I'm not aware of 17 whether there were or there were not searches 18 of the private personal space of the 19 President or Mrs. Clinton for official 20 records that would have been responsive to 21 official subpoenas to The White House, and 22 with respect to document requests I'm not as 136 1 focused on document requests, but I don't 2 believe I'm aware of any with respect to 3 document requests, either. That's not to say 4 it didn't happen, but it was not my practice 5 to determine how anyone or whether anyone had 6 searched their private personal home for 7 official records that responded to an 8 official White House subpoena. 9 Q With regard to any legal proceeding 10 that you were in charge of when you were with 11 The White House, did any of the President's 12 lawyers ever produce to you, meaning your 13 office, any official records that were found 14 in the residence? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the form 16 of the question, and I would just ask the 17 witness to answer yes or no. 18 THE WITNESS: Can I say I don't 19 remember? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: That's okay, too. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 137 1 Q You don't remember any official 2 records having been produced from the 3 Clintons' residence? 4 A I don't remember one way or the 5 other. 6 Q Do you know, Ms. Sherburne, whether 7 when records were to be produced that the 8 Clintons claimed were personal in response to 9 a legal document request anyone helped the 10 Clintons search for those records? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 MR. GURNEY: Join. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Join. 14 THE WITNESS: Could you read that 15 back, please? 16 (The reporter read the record as 17 requested.) 18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how to 19 answer that question. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Whether you have knowledge. It 22 calls for a yes or no. 138 1 A Actually, I don't think it does. 2 It seems to assume that there were personal 3 -- that there were personal records that were 4 responsive to an official subpoena. 5 Q So you're saying in any of the 6 Clinton controversies you don't know of any 7 personal records of the Clintons responsive 8 to subpoenas or document requests? 9 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not saying 11 that. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q So what are you saying? 14 A Ask me a question. 15 Q I did. 16 A Okay, try again. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read it back? 18 (The reporter read the record as 19 requested.) 20 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that 21 question. I don't understand it. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 139 1 Q But you are aware that the Clintons 2 themselves were served with subpoenas, 3 correct? 4 A In their personal capacities. 5 Q Right. 6 A Yes, I am. 7 Q And are you aware of anyone other 8 than the Clintons themselves who looked for 9 documents responsive to those subpoenas 10 served in the Clintons personal capacity? 11 A Yes, I am. 12 Q And who is that? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Can we take a break 14 at this point? If I can -- 15 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I want an answer, 16 please. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to ask the 18 witness to leave the room so I can explain 19 something to you briefly, if that's okay, 20 please. 21 THE WITNESS: Sure. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Ms. Sherburne, when 140 1 she was in The White House, represented the 2 office of the President, and the President 3 also has private counsel and there's a joint 4 defense privilege between them, and to the 5 extent that you ask questions that intrude 6 into that joint defense, either work product 7 or attorney-client privilege, we're going on 8 behalf of Williams & Connolly to assert 9 privilege to those questions. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I just asked whether 11 anybody helped look for the documents. 12 That's not privilege. The name of the person 13 is not privileged. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm just letting you 15 know where we're going to draw a privilege 16 line here. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. While we're 18 off the record -- 19 MS. SHAPIRO: We're on the record. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: While we're on the 21 record again we have a situation where 22 sometimes objections are made which obviously 141 1 have no basis which is in my view continues 2 to be an attempt to try to tell the witness 3 to pay particular attention to that answer 4 because there may be a problem, and I wasn't 5 even going to go where you're talking about 6 for that question, so I don't understand why 7 you had to make a big deal about it. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, because I think 9 it's important that both you and the witness 10 know that she cannot answer those questions, 11 so I'm entitled to object and to make sure 12 that she doesn't reveal privileged 13 information. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: My question did not 15 ask that question. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: But she had answered 17 yes. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, let's get 19 her back here. This is wasting time. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Just so you 21 understand my position so that when I do 22 instruct her not to answer then we won't have 142 1 a fuss made that somehow it's an 2 inappropriate objection or you don't 3 understand it. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: We may have a 5 difference of opinion. We're not going to 6 have a fuss. 7 Can you read back the question, 8 please? 9 (The reporter read the record as 10 requested.) 11 MS. SHAPIRO: You can go ahead and 12 answer that question. 13 THE WITNESS: David Kendall and 14 Carl Seligman and Carolyn Huber. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know whether they ever 17 looked for documents relevant to the FBI 18 files matter? 19 A No, I don't. 20 Q Now, are you aware of there ever 21 being any directive issued in The White House 22 in writing or orally that no official records 143 1 were to be taken to The White House 2 residence? 3 A No, I'm not aware of that. 4 Q You're aware that in fact from time 5 to time official records were taken to The 6 White House residence, correct? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 8 THE WITNESS: Can you tell me what 9 you mean by official records? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Records on White House stationery, 12 for instance. 13 A I'm sure there were. 14 Q Was there ever any directive as to 15 what could or could not be taken? 16 A Not that I'm aware of. 17 Q Was there any procedure to make 18 sure that if official records were taken to 19 the residence that they ever were delivered 20 back to The White House working quarters? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q To this day you don't know, do you, 144 1 Ms. Sherburne, whether Hillary Clinton or the 2 President took documents that were official 3 White House documents to the residence and 4 never produced them in response to subpoenas 5 to The White House? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 9 MR. GURNEY: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether 11 they've ever not produced documents, is that 12 the question? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Read back the 14 question. 15 (The reporter read the record as 16 requested.) 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: It wasn't -- I didn't 19 have responsibility for ensuring that every 20 single person who got an instruction about a 21 document request search their personal 22 residence. Whether they did or didn't, I 145 1 would have no way of knowing. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So the answer's no? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 5 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Correct? 8 A My answer's my answer. 9 Q And that would include the 10 Clintons? 11 A That would include the Clintons and 12 every single member of The White House office 13 who ever got an instruction from me about a 14 document request. 15 Q Did the Office of Independent 16 Counsel run by Judge Starr ever ask you or 17 anyone that you know of whether there were 18 official White House records in the residence 19 not produced to him? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Could you read that 22 back, please? 146 1 (The reporter read the record as 2 requested.) 3 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Have any of your meetings or 7 telephone conversations with Mrs. Clinton 8 since you've left The White House concerned 9 the production of documents in legal 10 proceedings? 11 A No. 12 Q You met in the Map Room with the 13 First Lady on three occasions since you left? 14 A I don't remember if it was three. 15 It was at least two and there may have been a 16 third. 17 Q You did see documents in that room, 18 correct? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 20 the question. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 22 MR. GURNEY: Join. 147 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a trick 4 question. 5 THE WITNESS: There's a map on the 6 wall. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q They object when they want you to 9 pay attention, Ms. Sherburne. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to that 11 characterization. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, that is 13 highly inappropriate. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want I can 15 raise my voice or do the same thing. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Highly inappropriate 17 for you to make that comment. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Please respond. 20 A I don't remember seeing any 21 documents other than the map on the wall. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: We can take lunch, 45 148 1 minutes. I'm cutting it back from an hour as 2 a courtesy of counsel who requested that we 3 shorten the lunch hour. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: We, for the record, 5 have no objection to the shortened lunch 6 hour. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I know you don't but 8 I do because I have to look at some documents 9 that were produced this morning and eat. 10 MS. PETERSON: What time is it? 11 What time is it on the video camera? 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 13 12:51. 14 MS. PETERSON: Thank you. 15 (Whereupon, at 12:51 p.m., a 16 luncheon recess was taken.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 149 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (1:46 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 JANE C. SHERBURNE 5 was recalled as the witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 9 CONTINUED. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on 11 video record at 1:46. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Ms. Sherburne, I'm going to try to 14 be brief because we already have some 15 background on the record. 16 A Excuse me. You asked me a question 17 right before the break about whether there 18 were any documents in the room when I met 19 with Mrs. Clinton three weeks ago. 20 Q Yes. 21 A I said there was a map on the wall. 22 I understood your question to be referring to 150 1 whether she had any documents. I had 2 documents with me in the room, and I just 3 wanted to clarify that because I think I had 4 said there were no documents. 5 Q What documents did you have in the 6 room? 7 A I had some documents with me that 8 related to the drop in the admissions of 9 racial minorities in the California system. 10 Q Anything else? 11 A I had some notes that I was taking 12 for my son, and that was it. 13 Q Anything related to the documents 14 that you're producing here today? 15 A No. 16 Q When did you first work for The 17 White House, the Clinton White House? 18 A In -- I believe, it was April 19 of 1994. 20 Q Before that time, had you served 21 for a limited period of time in The White 22 House? 151 1 A No. 2 Q What happened in April of 1994? 3 A You mean how did I come to be 4 working at The White House then? 5 Q Right. 6 A Lloyd Cutler, who is a retired 7 partner in my law firm, had been asked to 8 serve the President temporarily as counsel to 9 the President and -- Lloyd Cutler had been 10 asked to be special counsel to the President, 11 and I went over with Lloyd at that time -- 12 Lloyd, I think, was there a few weeks before 13 I arrived but went there to assist him in his 14 duties during the period that he was special 15 counsel. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q We'll call Mr. Cutler Lloyd, if 18 that's all right. Lloyd asked you to come 19 over to help him there? 20 A You know, I think I'd prefer if we 21 call him Mr. Cutler somehow. 22 Q Mr. Cutler. You were calling him 152 1 Lloyd. 2 A Right. I call him Lloyd. Somehow 3 coming out of your mouth -- we'll stick to 4 Mr. Cutler. 5 Q At least I didn't call him Floyd. 6 A Right. That would be really 7 confusing. I'm sorry. Your question? 8 Q Did he ask you to come over to be 9 with him at The White House? 10 A Yes, he did. 11 Q Up to that point in time, how long 12 had you been practicing as a lawyer? 13 A How long had I or Mr. Cutler? 14 Q Had you. 15 A I was admitted to the bar I think 16 in January of '80 -- no. Must have been the 17 summer. I don't know. '83 or '84. 18 Q Did you begin your career with 19 Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering? 20 A After graduating from law school, 21 yes. 22 Q What department did you start 153 1 working in at Wilmer, Cutler & Pickering 2 after law school? 3 A The firm isn't organized by 4 departments. There were practice groups, and 5 at that time there was a communications 6 practice group, and I started in that group. 7 Q Who was the supervisor in that 8 group? 9 A I don't remember. 10 Q How long did you stay in that 11 group? 12 A Probably a year. 13 Q What happened then? 14 A Then I went into the litigation 15 group. 16 Q That's where you remained up to the 17 point you joined Mr. Cutler at The White 18 House in April of '94? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q Who runs that litigation group at 21 Wilmer Cutler, when you were there before 22 joining The White House? 154 1 A Our firm isn't organized in a way 2 so that someone runs the group, so I don't 3 know how to answer the question. 4 Q So when you joined Mr. Cutler in 5 The White House in April of '94, you had 6 spent about eight or nine years working in 7 the litigation department of Wilmer and 8 Cutler? 9 A If that's the way the math adds up, 10 that's -- from about a year after I got there 11 until the time I -- well, actually I didn't 12 leave the firm in 1994. I went to The White 13 House as a special government employee and 14 maintained my affiliation with the firm at 15 that time, in 1994. I left the firm in 1995, 16 when I returned to The White House. 17 Q We'll get to the sequence. During 18 the time that you worked at Wilmer Cutler in 19 the litigation department, what kinds of 20 cases were you involved in, just generally 21 speaking? 22 A A variety of litigation matters: 155 1 Civil litigation, some criminal, internal 2 investigations. It was quite a wide variety 3 of litigation related matters. 4 Q Were you in general litigation or 5 did you have a specialty within litigation? 6 A I did not have a specialty. 7 Q Did you have cases involving white 8 collar crime? 9 A Some, yes. 10 Q Cases involving the Privacy Act? 11 A Oh, boy. I don't recall cases 12 involving the Privacy Act. 13 Q Cases involving the Freedom of 14 Information Act? 15 A There were certainly cases in which 16 I had either submitted a FOIA request or 17 perhaps advised a client on responding to a 18 FOIA request, so I did have some familiarity 19 with the Freedom of Information Act. 20 Q During the time at Wilmer Cutler, 21 you had cases that you worked on where you 22 engaged in production of documents on behalf 156 1 of your clients? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Some of those cases involved 4 production of documents to grand juries? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Some of those cases involved the 7 production of documents to -- 8 A When you say the grand juries, we 9 produced documents to the Justice Department 10 pursuant to subpoena in some of my cases. 11 Q Some of those cases were pursuant 12 to grand jury subpoenas? 13 A I believe so, yes. 14 Q You had cases where you produced 15 documents to private parties in civil 16 litigation? 17 A Yes. 18 Q You had cases where you produced 19 documents to the government in civil 20 litigation? 21 A Yes. In civil litigation? I'm not 22 sure. 157 1 Q Was there civil litigation with the 2 government that you were involved with, when 3 you were at Wilmer Cutler, before joining 4 Mr. Cutler, in April of '94? 5 A The Federal Government? 6 Q Any government. 7 A Civil litigation with any 8 government? I believe so. 9 Q When Mr. Cutler asked you to join 10 him in April of '94, what did he tell you he 11 wanted you to join him for? 12 A To assist in conducting an internal 13 investigation of The White House related to 14 White House Treasury contacts and the 15 handling of documents in Vince Foster's 16 office following his death. 17 Q Did Mr. Cutler tell you why he had 18 chosen you, Jane Sherburne? 19 A No. 20 Q You assumed it was because of your 21 litigation expertise? 22 A I assumed it was because I had 158 1 worked with Mr. Cutler in the past and he 2 thought I would be valuable addition to his 3 work. 4 Q Did you go through a White House 5 background security check, to undertake the 6 work for Mr. Cutler, beginning in April 7 of '94? 8 A I don't remember. I know I went 9 through background checks, and I don't 10 remember what was '94 and what was '95. 11 Q Do you remember talking with any 12 FBI agents about your background? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Do you remember talking with Gary 15 Aldrich about that? 16 A I don't remember who it was I 17 talked to. 18 Q Dennis Sculimbrene? 19 A I don't remember. About my 20 background check? 21 Q Yes. 22 A I don't remember. 159 1 Q When you joined The White House 2 Counsel's Office, what was your title? I 3 think you said, but let's just be sure we 4 have it right. 5 A In 1994? 6 Q Right. 7 A In 1994 my title was special 8 associate counsel to the President. 9 Q What were those duties and 10 responsibilities? 11 A To conduct an internal 12 investigation of The White House Treasury 13 contacts related to the RTC investigation of 14 Madison Guaranty, and the circumstances 15 surrounding the Foster document handling in 16 his office following his death. 17 There were other duties that came 18 up along the way, but that was largely the 19 focus of my work. 20 Q Was there a specific written job 21 instruction that you worked under? 22 A No. 160 1 Q So this job instruction came from 2 Mr. Cutler himself, and it was given to you 3 orally? 4 A There was nothing writing, and I 5 had conversations with Mr. Cutler in which we 6 determined what it was I would be doing when 7 I was there. 8 Q Did there come a point in time when 9 your duties and responsibilities changed or 10 widened? 11 A Before returning to the firm? 12 Q Correct. 13 A No. 14 Q When did you return to the firm? 15 A Sometime in October of 1994. 16 Q During the time that you worked in 17 The White House, did your duties and 18 responsibilities widen, to some extent, to 19 take on other Clinton controversies besides 20 the Foster documents, Whitewater, and RTC? 21 A Do you mean in 1994? 22 Q Yes. 161 1 A I think, as I said earlier, there 2 were some other things that I got involved in 3 along the way, but the primary focus of my 4 duties remained the internal investigation 5 related to White House Treasury contacts and 6 the handling of documents in Foster's office. 7 Q During the time that you were at 8 The White House working between April and 9 October of 1994, did you prepare a task list 10 of potential issues of The White House 11 concerning some of the Clinton controversies? 12 A Not that I recall. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 14 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 15 Exhibit 5. 16 (Sherburne Deposition Exhibit 17 No. 5 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q This is a document which is part of 21 the house report concerning its investigation 22 of White House Travel Office firings and 162 1 related matters. It spans Bates numbers 2 DF 780643 through and including 780654. 3 Ms. Sherburne, take a look at that 4 document and tell me whether you've ever seen 5 it before. 6 A Yes, I have. 7 Q Did you prepare this document? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q When did you prepare it? 10 A I began preparing it probably 11 sometime in November of 1994, and it looks 12 like the latest version, which I believe this 13 one is, is December 13, 1994. 14 Q So there's several different drafts 15 of this document? 16 A No. 17 Q This document was on your computer? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q What computer was that? 20 A It would have been -- when I 21 started the document, I was on an airplane, 22 so I'm assuming that was a laptop, and I 163 1 can't -- I don't know what computer I would 2 have used after that. 3 Typically, when I traveled, would 4 check out a laptop from our firm for purposes 5 of travel and turn it back in, and I don't 6 remember where I worked on this task list 7 after that. 8 Q When did you start working on the 9 document, in November of '94? 10 A Yes, I believe so. 11 Q At that point, you had already left 12 The White House? 13 A That's right. 14 Q This document is based upon 15 information which you obtained while you were 16 at The White House, correct? 17 A Portions of it. 18 Q Why is it that you prepared this 19 document beginning November of '94 when you 20 were no longer working at The White House? 21 A I was anticipating my return. 22 Q What caused you to believe that you 164 1 would be returning at that time? 2 A After the midterm election in 3 November of 1994, Harold Ickes had called and 4 asked if I would return, and so I was 5 anticipating my return when I started to 6 prepare a task list. 7 Q Did he ask you to prepare this task 8 list? 9 A No. 10 Q Did someone ask you to prepare it? 11 A No. 12 Q Why did you prepare it? 13 A Because if I was going to undertake 14 the responsibilities that he and I discussed, 15 I thought I needed a task list. 16 Q What was your methodology in 17 preparing the task list? Why are certain 18 things on the list? 19 A At one point, I obtained a copy of 20 The Washington Times that had identified all 21 the possible Clinton scandals -- so-called 22 scandals that they thought could be 165 1 investigated by Republicans in the upcoming 2 two-year cycle, and I made a list of those, 3 and that's mostly what you see under issues. 4 That would correspond with what I read in The 5 Washington Times. 6 Q You're talking about the issues 7 which appears on Bates number 780643? 8 A Carried over to 644. 9 Q The fact that this document's dated 10 December 13, 1994, based on your computer, 11 did it print out a new date each time you 12 printed the document out? 13 A I don't believe so. 14 Q You started the document in 15 November? 16 A I don't think it's an automatic 17 date changer. I think I changed the date 18 each time I worked on it. 19 Q So there are prior drafts of this 20 document? 21 A No. 22 Q But if you were to get that laptop 166 1 computer, you would find on the hard drive 2 different versions of this? 3 A No. I would have -- it was a 4 continuing document. 5 Q What do you mean by a continuing 6 document? 7 A I would have just continued to work 8 on it and elaborate and change and shift and 9 focus and flesh it out. It was an iterative 10 document. 11 Q During the time that you worked for 12 The White House between April and 13 October '94, you did investigate the removal 14 of documents from Vince Foster's office? 15 A During that time period, I began an 16 investigation of how the documents in Vince 17 Foster's office were handled after his death. 18 We had understood that the 19 Congressional committees, at that time it 20 would have been the House Banking Committee 21 and the Senate Banking Committee, that they 22 were going to hold hearings on both of those 167 1 issues: The White House Treasury contacts 2 and the Foster document handling, in August 3 of '94. 4 Fisk, Bob Fisk at that point was a 5 special counsel who had been -- special 6 prosecutor who had been looking into those 7 matters, and he had given the Congressional 8 committee clearance to go forward with 9 hearings on those two subjects. At some 10 point -- so we began our own internal 11 investigation of those subjects. 12 At some point into our process, 13 Fisk asked that we stopped investigating the 14 handling of documents in Foster's office 15 following his death and said that he was not 16 ready for the Congressional committees to 17 hold hearings on those subject, and he 18 requested that we stop our own investigation. 19 So we got a part of the way into 20 that investigation, and we never did report 21 to Congress on that. On the White House 22 Treasury contacts, we completed that 168 1 investigation and then Mr. Cutler testified 2 before Congress on that and both committees 3 reporting the conclusions and findings of the 4 investigations. 5 Q In the course of your investigation 6 of the documents that Mr. Foster had in his 7 office, did you learn that Mr. Foster kept 8 documents in a safe in Bernard Nussbaum's 9 office? 10 A Yes, I believe so. 11 Q How did you learn that? 12 A I can't remember. 13 Q What is it that you learned about 14 Foster keeping documents in the safe in 15 Nussbaum's office? 16 A I don't remember -- I don't 17 remember the specifics. I remember that 18 Nussbaum had a safe in his office, and it was 19 the office safe that was used for that suite. 20 Vince Foster's office was in that suite, and 21 I believe that he may have used Nussbaum's 22 safe for some of his documents, but I'm not 169 1 sure. I don't have a clear recollection. 2 Q You learned that materials 3 concerning The White House Travel Office had 4 been kept in that safe by Mr. Foster? 5 A No. 6 Q You learned that FBI background 7 security materials had from time to time been 8 kept in that safe? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you ever heard that? 11 A No. 12 Q You learned that a file concerning 13 Chris Emery and Billy Dale had been in that 14 safe? 15 A No. I never heard that. 16 Q You heard that files concerning the 17 other Travel Office workers were kept in that 18 safe? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever come to learn that 21 the now famous Rose Law Firm billing records 22 were for a time housed in that safe? 170 1 A No. 2 Q You haven't heard that from any 3 source? 4 A No. 5 Q Including the newspaper? 6 A No. 7 Q Have you ever reviewed the 8 testimony of Linda Tripp in this lawsuit? 9 A No. 10 Q Ever read anything about it? 11 A I don't believe so. 12 Q Do you know whether anybody went 13 into that safe in Nussbaum's office after 14 Vince Foster died to see what was in it? 15 A At any time? 16 Q After he died. 17 A After he died? So that would be 18 from June 20, 1993 to the present or July 20? 19 Q July 20. 20 A To the present? 21 Q Yes. 22 A I believe people have looked in 171 1 Mr. Nussbaum's safe since then. 2 Q Who looked in Mr. Nussbaum's safe 3 since then? 4 A At one point, a member of my staff 5 did, Miriam Nemitz, and there may have been 6 other occasions, but that's all I recall. 7 Q Did Ms. Nemitz or anyone else, to 8 the best of your knowledge, ever inventory 9 what was in the safe? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q Do you know who had access to that 12 safe, in the ordinary course? 13 A I know that Mr. Nussbaum -- the 14 safe was in his office, but I believe he had 15 trouble opening it himself, and so there may 16 have been someone else in the office who 17 assisted him, but I can't remember for sure. 18 Q Was it Mr. Marceca? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Ms. Tripp? 21 A No, not that I know of. 22 Q Ms. Pond? 172 1 A I don't know if it was Ms. Pond or 2 not, but that's -- I have a vague 3 recollection that she possibly could have 4 had -- maybe she just kept the combination or 5 there was some -- there was something that 6 she may have done to assist Mr. Nussbaum in 7 opening the safe. 8 Q You knew Ms. Pond, did you not? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Ms. Gorham, she had access to that 11 safe, correct? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q You knew Ms. Gorham, correct? 14 A I met her when she testified at a 15 Senate hearing. 16 Q Craig Livingstone? 17 A What about him? Did I know him? 18 Q Well, okay. Did you know him? 19 A Yes. 20 Q You knew he had access to that 21 safe? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 173 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You learned he had access to that 3 safe? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know that. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q When did Ms. Nemitz look in the 8 safe? 9 A It would have been in '95 or '96. 10 Probably sometime in 1995. 11 Q So it wasn't until long after 12 Foster had died that she looked in there? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Do you know of anyone looking in 15 that safe shortly after Foster died? 16 A I may have had information then 17 that I'm not recalling. I can't think of 18 anyone that I'm aware of at this point. 19 Q You don't know whether a person or 20 persons removed documents and material from 21 that safe after Foster died, immediately 22 after Foster died? 174 1 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A I never heard that. 5 Q But you don't know one way or the 6 other? 7 A I never -- in the course of 8 conducting interviewing many people I had 9 never heard that, no. 10 Q You are aware that Mr. Foster had a 11 meeting in his office concerning the Travel 12 Office firings before he died? 13 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 15 that. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You don't know one way or the 18 other? 19 A There was a time, Mr. Klayman, when 20 I knew this stuff very well, but my memory 21 has faded on that, and I don't remember 22 whether I knew at one time whether Foster had 175 1 met with people in his office about the 2 Travel Office firings. 3 Q If I told you that Linda Tripp 4 testified that there was a meeting which 5 included Maggie Williams, Bill Kennedy, 6 Kathryn Cornelius, Harry Thomasson, David 7 Watkins, and Vince Foster concerning the 8 Travel Office, would that refresh your 9 recollection? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You say at a point in time you may 14 have known this. I take it you recorded it, 15 if in fact you learned this in a prior point 16 in time? 17 A Recorded it? I'm not sure what 18 you -- 19 Q You would have kept notes of what 20 you were learning about this whole Travel 21 Office matter? 22 A Mr. Klayman, I didn't keep very 176 1 many notes. 2 Q When you left The White House, did 3 you take your notes with you? 4 A No. 5 Q Where did those notes remain? 6 A I didn't take notes. 7 Q Did you ever use a dictaphone when 8 you were at The White House? 9 A No. 10 Q Ever use a little tape recorder? 11 A No. 12 Q You did use a computer though, 13 didn't you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What computer did you use? 16 A I had a computer in my office at 17 The White House. 18 Q Did you have the same office the 19 first time as opposed to the second time you 20 worked at The White House? 21 A No, I didn't. 22 Q What were the two different office 177 1 numbers? 2 A In '94, I don't remember what the 3 office number was. I was in the Old 4 Executive Office Building on the 17th Street 5 side, and I don't remember the office number. 6 When I returned to The White House in January 7 of 1995, my office was what's known as the 8 barbershop on the ground floor of the West 9 Wing. 10 Q So you had two different desktops 11 in either office? 12 A For all I know the one I had in the 13 barbershop is the same one that I had before. 14 I don't know what happened to the one that I 15 had before. It very likely could have been 16 two, but I don't know that for sure, two 17 different ones. 18 Q You sometimes made memoranda on 19 those computers? 20 A Occasionally, yes. 21 Q Typed in notes? 22 A What do you mean typed in notes? 178 1 Q Notations to yourself. 2 A I don't believe that was my 3 practice. 4 Q You kept a desk calendar? 5 A My secretary kept a calendar, and I 6 tried to keep a calendar, but it wasn't -- I 7 didn't keep it regularly. 8 Q You took that calendar when you 9 left? 10 A The one that I kept? 11 Q Yes. 12 A The one that my secretary kept? 13 Q Yes. 14 A I believe so. 15 Q You have those calendars to today? 16 A Yes, and I reviewed them to see if 17 there were any entries that were responsive 18 to your subpoena. 19 Q Did you produce any documents from 20 those calendars? 21 A I believe so but I'm not sure. 22 Q Did you keep a personal diary? 179 1 A No. 2 Q Have you ever kept a personal 3 diary? 4 A When I was little. 5 Q When you recorded memoranda and 6 other documents on the computers you've just 7 identified in those two offices, you backed 8 it up onto the hard drive? 9 A I don't know. I'm not sure what 10 that means. 11 Q You recorded the documents on hard 12 drive of the computer? 13 A I just used the computer, and if 14 that's what that means, then maybe I did it, 15 but I don't know. 16 Q I take it you sometimes recorded 17 what you're doing on the computer on a floppy 18 disk? 19 A I may have occasionally, but that 20 was not my practice. 21 Q So your practice was to put it on 22 the hard drive? 180 1 A I'm not familiar with how The White 2 House computers work. If when you turn it on 3 and you call up WordPerfect and you type 4 something into WordPerfect that means it's 5 being put on your hard drive, then the answer 6 to your question is yes. 7 Q When you left The White House, you 8 took floppy disks with you that you had 9 recorded some documents on? 10 A Not that I recall. 11 Q Did you copy off any documents on 12 your hard drive? 13 A I don't think so. I don't remember 14 doing that. 15 Q Do you know where the computers you 16 used are today? 17 A No, I don't. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: 30 seconds. 19 (Pause) 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Do you know where those computers 22 are today? 181 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q Do you know whether, during the 3 time that you were at The White House, did 4 anybody from Judge Starr's office ever ask 5 you to search your computers for documents 6 responsive to grand jury subpoenas concerning 7 the FBI files matter? 8 A I don't remember. 9 Q Do you know if your computers have 10 ever been searched? 11 A Yes. 12 Q With regard to any subpoenas? 13 A Yes. 14 Q How do you know that? 15 A Because I remember going through 16 them or going through -- I don't know if the 17 one when I was in the old EOB, I don't know 18 if that one was. I'm not sure. 19 But I do remember the one in the 20 barbershop at one point going through it and 21 checking it for responsive documents. We got 22 so many subpoenas from the Independent 182 1 Counsel and Congressional committees that I 2 can't remember what subpoena that would have 3 been responsive to or why I would have done 4 that. I just remember doing it at one point. 5 Q During the time that you worked in 6 The White House Counsel's Office, the first 7 time, did you meet Craig Livingstone? 8 A In '94? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A I don't remember. I may have. 11 Q How did you meet him? 12 A In the course of doing the initial 13 stages of the investigation on the Foster 14 document handling matter, I may have been 15 introduced to him, but I don't recall for 16 sure. 17 Q During the time that you worked in 18 The White House, the first time and the 19 second time, you did hear Mr. Livingstone 20 state that he had been hired by Hillary 21 Clinton? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 183 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: No. I never heard 3 him say that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You did hear, however, that he was 6 telling other people that? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q During any time you were at The 10 White House? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Same objection. 12 MR. GURNEY: Join. 13 THE WITNESS: No. Did I ever hear 14 that? I can't remember if Gary Aldrich wrote 15 that in his book or not, but if he did, that 16 would have been the only time I heard that. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q During the time that you worked in 19 The White House, the first or the second 20 time, you did hear that Livingstone would 21 sometimes go around telling people that he 22 knew what was in their FBI background 184 1 security file? 2 A I know that there were some 3 occasions when -- or that there was an 4 occasion where there was some concern that 5 Mr. Livingstone was indiscreet in the way he 6 discussed a security clearance with an 7 employee that may have made that employee 8 uneasy. Whether he told them that he knew -- 9 was aware of information in their background 10 file, I'm not sure. 11 Q How did you learn that he was 12 indiscreet? 13 A I can't remember. 14 Q You are aware that Mr. Livingstone 15 sometimes, based on what you heard at The 16 White House, talked into his wrist watch 17 claiming he was communicating with 18 Mrs. Clinton? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 20 the question. 21 THE WITNESS: Wait a minute. Not 22 that one that says Judicial Watch? 185 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q No, I don't think this one has a 3 hot line to Mrs. Clinton. I need to get a 4 new model. 5 A Yeah. That's crazy. I've never 6 heard that. 7 Q Are you aware that Livingstone 8 visited The White House living quarters on a 9 number of occasions? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 11 of the question. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Have you ever seen White House wave 16 logs showing his entry into the residence? 17 A I've never seen wave logs that show 18 entry to the residence. 19 Q In the course of your later 20 investigations, you never asked for wave logs 21 concerning Livingstone? 22 A I can't remember. I can't remember 186 1 for sure. It seems to me there probably were 2 requests asking for his entry and exit to The 3 White House complex. Whether the requests 4 were for any record of him being in the 5 residence, I don't remember. 6 Q Do you know of any search that was 7 ever conducted of The White House residence 8 to see if Livingstone had taken into that 9 residence FBI files or materials? 10 A I'm not aware of anything like 11 that. 12 Q Do you know whether Livingstone 13 ever did take FBI files or FBI materials into 14 the residence? 15 A No. 16 Q You don't know one way or the 17 other? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I have never learned 20 that he did. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You haven't learned that he didn't, 187 1 correct? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 3 THE WITNESS: I haven't -- I've 4 never learned that he did or come across 5 anything to suggest that he did. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q But do you know the other side of 8 that coin, that he didn't? Can you prove 9 that he never did that? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A Can I prove that he didn't? 15 Q Yeah. 16 A No. 17 Q Have you ever asked Mrs. Clinton, 18 did Craig Livingstone bring FBI materials to 19 you? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton about 22 her involvement with Craig Livingstone as to 188 1 whether or not he had showed FBI materials to 2 her? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Have you ever asked the President 8 these questions? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you ever asked Mrs. Clinton, 11 did you have anything to do with obtaining 12 FBI files on Republicans? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton, did 15 you have anything to do with obtaining FBI 16 files on nonholdover employees and 17 nonpolitical appointees? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you know of anyone who did ask 20 these questions to her? 21 A I'm not aware of anyone who did or 22 didn't. 189 1 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton 2 whether FBI files of nonholdover employees 3 and nonpolitical appointees to the Clinton 4 Administration were being loaded on to White 5 House computer? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: No. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton 10 whether FBI files and other materials of 11 nonholdover employees and nonpolitical 12 appointees were being loaded on to White 13 House computers so they could be shared with 14 the Democratic National Committee? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Do you know of anyone who did ask 19 these questions? 20 A No. 21 Q Have you ever seen the personnel 22 file of Craig Livingstone? 190 1 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 2 term "personnel file." 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A I have seen materials that The 6 White House personnel office had related to 7 Craig Livingstone. I don't know if it was a 8 personnel file or what you are referring to 9 as the personnel file. 10 Q Have you seen his employment file? 11 A I've seen documents related to his 12 employment. 13 Q But you've never seen the full 14 file? 15 A I believe I have seen -- I'm not 16 sure what you mean by the full file. 17 Q Well, let me back up. 18 A Do you know that there is one? 19 Q Let me back up. When you worked at 20 The White House, don't they have a personnel 21 file on you? 22 A No. 191 1 Q Where your resume is put in with 2 recommendations and your job forms and job 3 reviews and promotions and things like that? 4 A My impression is that records are 5 kept in a couple of different places, but I 6 really can't remember. I know that at one 7 point we looked for all of the personnel 8 records related to Craig Livingstone. I 9 believed I had all of them. I don't remember 10 what sources they came from or if it was just 11 one file, but they were things like, you 12 know, benefits information, salary 13 information, the formal job -- I don't think 14 there was a description on it, but just the 15 formal appointment. 16 Q Recommendations? 17 A You know, those kinds of -- I don't 18 know if there were -- I don't know if there 19 were recommendations in that file or not. I 20 can't remember. 21 Q Did you ever see a file with 22 recommendations for Craig Livingstone to get 192 1 a job at The White House? 2 A A file that was specifically 3 identified as recommendations? 4 Q No. Just a file that had 5 recommendations for employment at The White 6 House concerning Craig Livingstone? 7 A I didn't see a file that had 8 recommendations for Craig Livingstone in it. 9 Q Did you see a file or any type of 10 documentation that contained an explanation 11 of how Livingstone was hired? 12 A No. 13 Q Did you see any kind of file or 14 other documentation which in any way depicted 15 how he got his job in The White House? 16 MR. GURNEY: Are you talking about 17 any kind of file? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. 19 THE WITNESS: That depicted how he 20 got his job? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Yeah, that explained -- 193 1 A What do you mean by how he got his 2 job? 3 Q Did it show who he interviewed 4 with? Did it show who recommended him? Did 5 it show who ultimately made the decision to 6 hire him? Did you see anything in writing 7 from which one could determine how Craig 8 Livingstone came to get his job in The White 9 House? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, when 12 I -- when this question came up in 1996, we 13 asked -- you know, we tried to find what 14 information was available on how Craig 15 Livingstone got his job, and I remember 16 seeing some sort of questionnaire or form 17 that LIC might have had filled out and I 18 remember seeing a few other letters. 19 I don't remember now where they 20 come from, if they came from a file or if 21 they came from other places, but I do 22 remember that there were a few letters that 194 1 weren't terribly illuminating, really didn't 2 help answer the question that it sounds like 3 you're still trying to answer. 4 And I don't remember exactly what 5 the source was for those records, whether it 6 was a personnel file or something else. 7 I know we looked very hard for any 8 record we could find that would help answer 9 that question. 10 Q The documents which you did see, do 11 you know how they came into your possession? 12 A I can't remember. 13 MR. GURNEY: Objection. As to 14 which documents? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q The documents which you saw that 17 perhaps contained a questionnaire from LIC. 18 Do you know what files if any that were 19 taken? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q Do you know of anyone who would 22 know that? 195 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q At the time that you were doing 3 this investigation, we'll get more into this 4 later, did you say to anyone, I want to see 5 Mr. Livingstone's personnel file, the file 6 that's kept related to his hiring and his 7 work in The White House, anything to that 8 effect? 9 A When you say this investigation, I 10 want to make sure we're talking about the 11 same thing. We didn't conduct an 12 investigation in The White House of the whole 13 FBI files matter. We were trying to 14 understand how Craig Livingstone got hired at 15 one point, and I don't remember how we went 16 about trying to locate documents that might 17 shed some light on that question. 18 Q But you don't remember right now, 19 as of today, actually seeing a file that was 20 Craig Livingstone's personnel file that had 21 everything related to his employment in it? 22 You don't remember that as of now? 196 1 A I think I did see something like 2 that. I just don't know if it was -- if it 3 included material that was outside of -- that 4 had come from other sources and wasn't 5 normally kept in the personnel office. 6 Q What precautions did you take in 7 asking for that information about Craig 8 Livingstone's hiring and work at The White 9 House, that documents weren't removed from 10 that file before you were able to inspect it? 11 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 12 form of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: What precautions did 14 I take? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q If any. 17 A To make sure that documents weren't 18 removed from Craig Livingstone's personnel 19 file? 20 Q Right. 21 A I don't think it occurred to me 22 that anyone would do that, so I don't believe 197 1 I took any precautions. 2 Q But you were aware at the time that 3 there was a huge domestic controversy over 4 these FBI files, correct? 5 A Over the FBI files that were in 6 the -- 7 Q Obtained by The White House. 8 A Okay. I was aware that there was a 9 huge domestic controversy? 10 Q Well, it was obviously in the 11 media, correct? 12 A That would have been in the 13 June '96 time period. 14 Q Right, and the Republicans were 15 screaming high heaven, correct? 16 A There was a lot of interest in this 17 matter. There's no question about that. 18 Q Right. Under those circumstances, 19 where Republicans were screaming high heaven 20 and accusing the Clinton Administration of 21 illegalities, are you saying it never dawned 22 on you that people in The White House could 198 1 remove documents that could implicate them? 2 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 4 THE WITNESS: Who hired Craig 5 Livingstone didn't -- was not the front 6 burner issue when we were trying to figure 7 out how those documents came to be in The 8 White House. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Let me ask you why wasn't it a 11 front burner issue? 12 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know why it 14 wasn't. It wasn't. What I cared about at 15 that time was, you know, why did we ask for 16 these? Why do we have them? Who looked at 17 them? What was done with them? 18 You know, why do we still have 19 them? Let's get rid of them. That's what I 20 was concerned about. Who hired Craig 21 Livingstone was not implicated in those very 22 serious questions. 199 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q That later became an issue, didn't 3 it? 4 A It later became an issue that some 5 of the Republicans, I think, wanted an answer 6 to, so they made it an issue, yes. 7 Q Later you learned that in fact an 8 individual by the name of Dennis Sculimbrene 9 had written a memo of a conversation with 10 Bernard Nussbaum where Sculimbrene wrote that 11 Hillary Clinton strongly recommended 12 Livingstone, correct? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 14 of the question. 15 MR. GURNEY: Join. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You later came to learn that, 18 correct? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 20 of the question. 21 MR. GURNEY: Join. 22 THE WITNESS: No, that's not what I 200 1 learned. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Did you ever learn that? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you ever learn that Special 6 Agent Sculimbrene had written a memorandum 7 about Livingstone's hiring? 8 A I learned that Sculimbrene had made 9 some notation about Livingstone's hiring in 10 his background check or whatever that file 11 would have been called. 12 Q How did you learn that? 13 A I learned it from Tom Kelly. 14 Q Who is Tom Kelly? 15 A He was -- I think his title was 16 deputy general counsel of the FBI. 17 Q Kelly called you? 18 A Kelly had called me -- I believe I 19 had a few messages that he called, and then 20 either he or Howard Shapiro contacted Cathy 21 Wallman, who is the deputy counsel, and Cathy 22 told me that she had spoken to Tom or Howard, 201 1 and then I called Tom Kelly back after 2 talking to Cathy. 3 Q When did these calls occur? After 4 you rejoined The White House, correct? 5 A Yeah. I came back to The White 6 House in January of '95, so I would have been 7 there for a year and a half or so. 8 Q So does that refresh your 9 recollection as to when those calls occurred? 10 A The calls with Tom Kelly? 11 Q Right. Occurred in June of '96? 12 A It seems to me it was later than 13 that, but I'm not sure. It could have been 14 July or even August. I know there are 15 probably documents around. You probably know 16 the date. But you can tease me if you want. 17 Q When you had these conversations 18 with Mr. Kelly and Mr. Shapiro and they told 19 you about the Sculimbrene memo, you then 20 advised Mrs. Clinton? 21 A I don't believe I ever talked to 22 Mr. Shapiro. I think my conversations were 202 1 only with Mr. Kelly about the Sculimbrene 2 memo. 3 Q After you had the conversations 4 with Mr. Kelly, you then advised 5 Mrs. Clinton? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You had a meeting with her? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't believe it 12 was a meeting. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Telephone call? 15 A I can't remember for sure. 16 Q What did you advise Mrs. Clinton? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't have a clear 19 memory of the conversation other than simply 20 telling her that there was a report and 21 asking her if she had ever known Craig's 22 mother. 203 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q So all you ever asked her was 3 whether she knew Craig's mother, Craig 4 meaning Livingstone? 5 A All I ever asked her about what? 6 You asked me if I advised her about the 7 Sculimbrene notation. 8 Q Right. 9 A Yes, I advised her about the 10 Sculimbrene notation and asked her if she 11 knew Craig's mother. 12 Q That's all you ever discussed with 13 her, did she know Craig's mother? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Klayman, I'm 15 going to object because I think we're getting 16 into privileged areas. We're prepared to 17 allow her to answer these questions if you 18 agree that it doesn't constitute any sort of 19 a waiver of privilege. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I understand 21 your position and you can put it on the 22 record. It's my view that there is no 204 1 privilege under the Eighth Circuit decision 2 that we made an exhibit this morning, and 3 it's my view that even if there were a 4 privilege, Ms. Sherburne obviously discussed 5 these matters with other people, and I want 6 to know why you're asserting any claim of 7 privilege here. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, you think it 9 still is -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: You can put your 11 position on the record. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: We think it's still, 13 (a) privileged; and (b) we're not in the 14 Eighth Circuit and it still counts as a 15 privileged conversation. As I say we're 16 prepared to let her testify. 17 We don't want to block any 18 testimony, but we do want to preserve a 19 privilege. So if you agree there's not going 20 to be any waiver since, it shouldn't be a 21 problem -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I will agree that not 205 1 by virtue of testimony here today will she 2 waive anything in that regard. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: We'll accept that. 4 MR. GURNEY: Can we take a break 5 for a couple of minutes? 6 THE WITNESS: Real fast. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we just get an 8 answer to this question and then we can take 9 a break? 10 THE WITNESS: Sure. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read it back? 12 (The reporter read the record as 13 requested.) 14 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 15 time frame. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can respond. 18 A Do you mean is that all I ever 19 discussed with her about the Sculimbrene? 20 Q No. I'm talking about after you 21 had this conversation with Mr. Kelly of the 22 FBI and you then spoke with Mrs. Clinton, did 206 1 you ask her anything other than whether or 2 not she knew Craig Livingstone's mother? 3 A I believe I asked her if she knew 4 Craig Livingstone. I believe I asked her if 5 she knew Craig Livingstone. 6 Q She said yes? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: She said that she 10 only recently had had him pointed out to her. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did she say anything else during 13 that conversation? 14 A I believe she -- I believe I said 15 something like, in a joking way, something 16 like, see, sooner or later, you know, they 17 have found a way to link even this up to you, 18 and she made the comment that, you know, she 19 had indicated that that was going to happen 20 sooner or later, as it seems to her earlier, 21 and she had now been proven right. 22 Q Were you implying that Special 207 1 Agent Sculimbrene was somehow part of a vast 2 right wing conspiracy? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: Was I implying that 5 to her? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Yeah. 8 A No. 9 Q Did you have any reason to believe 10 when you made that statement to her that 11 Special Agent Sculimbrene had written that 12 memorandum on behalf of Republicans or 13 critics of the Clinton Administration? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: Did I have any reason 16 to believe, when I made that statement to 17 her -- 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q That Special Agent Sculimbrene had 20 any ulterior motive in writing that 21 memorandum, saying that Craig Livingstone 22 came highly recommended by Hillary Clinton? 208 1 A I can't remember what I knew 2 when -- and when in the sequence I spoke to 3 Mrs. Clinton, so I don't remember. 4 Q Do you have any information today 5 that -- 6 MR. GURNEY: Larry, you said we can 7 take a break. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just ask one 9 question, and I'll close this area for 10 purposes of the break. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you have any information today 13 that Special Agent Sculimbrene has any 14 ulterior motive, political or otherwise, 15 against the Clintons? 16 A I guess I assumed he must, since 17 the statement that he made turned out to be 18 false. I don't know what his motive was, but 19 he must have had some motive for making a 20 statement like that -- that was ulterior. 21 Q But at the time you discussed this 22 with Mrs. Clinton after your telephone 209 1 conversation with Mr. Kelly, you didn't know 2 of any ulterior motive by Special Agent 3 Sculimbrene? 4 A Did I know what his motive might 5 be? 6 Q Yeah. 7 A No. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: We can take a break. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 10 video record at 2:46. 11 (Recess) 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 13 video record at 2:54. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You said, Ms. Sherburne, that you 16 later came to learn that Special Agent 17 Sculimbrene had an ulterior motive in writing 18 that memorandum, where he said Hillary 19 Clinton had strongly recommended Craig 20 Livingstone? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 210 1 MR. GURNEY: Join. 2 THE WITNESS: At some point, I 3 learned that everyone who was involved in 4 whatever Agent Sculimbrene had reported 5 there, denied any knowledge of either having 6 told him that or of the underlying fact, and 7 so that led me to conclude that there must 8 have been some motive for him to write that, 9 other than that it was a fact. Whether it 10 was his own misunderstanding, you know, or 11 there was some other motive, I'm not aware. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q In fact, the only other person 14 there, was Mr. Nussbaum. He was quoting 15 Mr. Nussbaum, correct? 16 A I believe he was reporting what he 17 said Mr. Nussbaum had told him. I don't know 18 that he was quoting. 19 Q You don't know whether or not there 20 were other people in on the conversation that 21 he had from which he wrote the memorandum? 22 A In on his conversation with 211 1 Mr. Nussbaum? 2 Q Right. 3 A If he had one, I don't know. 4 Q The bottom line is you believe 5 Mr. Nussbaum; you didn't believe 6 Mr. Sculimbrene? 7 A After asking questions about the 8 statement of Mr. Nussbaum's lawyer, 9 Mrs. Clinton, Mrs. Livingstone, Craig 10 Livingstone, Bill Kennedy, and perhaps 11 others, who all said that there was no truth 12 to the statement, I concluded that 13 Mr. Sculimbrene must have got it wrong. 14 Q Did you ask any of these people for 15 underlying documentation or other information 16 to prove what they said, that Sculimbrene was 17 wrong? 18 A Documents to show that Mrs. Clinton 19 didn't know Mrs. Livingstone? 20 Q Right. 21 A I would think that if they did know 22 Mrs. Livingstone, you might find some 212 1 documents, which we never did. It would 2 strike me as odd that one would find 3 documents, showing that a relationship 4 between two people who had never met, didn't 5 exist. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you what 7 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 8 Exhibit 6. 9 (Sherburne Deposition Exhibit 10 No. 6 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q This is the famous memo which 14 Special Agent Sculimbrene wrote. Have you 15 seen it before? 16 A I don't think I have. 17 Q It says, "Bernard Nussbaum, Counsel 18 to the President" -- I'm reading in the 19 second paragraph -- "advised that he has 20 known the appointee for a period of time that 21 he has been employed in the new 22 administration. He had come highly 213 1 recommended to him by Hillary Clinton, who 2 has known his mother for a longer period of 3 time. He was confident that the appointee 4 lives a circumspect life and was not aware of 5 any illegal drug or alcohol problems. He 6 said the appointee will work at The White 7 House on security matters. He said in the 8 short period of time the appointee has worked 9 for him, he has been completely satisfied 10 with his performance, conduct, and 11 productivity. He recommended employee for 12 continued access in his current capacity." 13 Reading the part where I read to 14 you, "he had come highly recommended to him 15 by Hillary Clinton," this statement that 16 Livingstone came highly recommended by 17 Hillary Clinton, that's an independent 18 statement; isn't it? It's not just an issue 19 of whether or not Livingstone's mother knew 20 Hillary? 21 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 214 1 Q Correct? 2 A I'm sorry. An independent 3 statement -- what is your question? 4 Q My question is, you were only 5 asking questions about whether Mrs. Clinton 6 knew Livingstone's mother, correct? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 9 MR. GURNEY: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: When I was speaking 11 to Mrs. Clinton about this report? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Right. 14 A I think I said I asked her if she 15 knew Craig Livingstone too. 16 Q Right, but you specifically didn't 17 ask her the question whether she had 18 recommended Craig Livingstone? You didn't 19 ask her that? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: She didn't know who 22 he was. I'm not sure it made sense to ask a 215 1 question about whether she recommended him 2 then, if she didn't know who he was. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You never asked that question? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I did 7 or not. I don't remember. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You don't know of anyone who did? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Correct? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q In fact, it is possible to 15 recommend someone never having met them, 16 correct? 17 A Are you asking me if she 18 recommended Craig, having -- 19 Q It is possible, in an employment 20 situation, for an employer to recommend 21 somebody for a job, never having met that 22 person? 216 1 A Mr. Klayman, anything's possible. 2 To highly recommend someone without ever 3 having met them seems unusual and unlikely to 4 me. 5 Q You're saying that you could not go 6 on the basis of somebody else's 7 recommendation? Say I told you to hire your 8 attorney, because I had heard he's an 9 excellent lawyer, but I never met him. Those 10 kinds of things happen, correct? 11 A Well, you know the recommender. If 12 you recommended an attorney for me, 13 Mr. Klayman, I don't think I would retain 14 him. Maybe another example. 15 Q Are you getting personal, 16 Ms. Sherburne? 17 Do you know of anyone who ever did 18 a check at The White House to see whether or 19 not Mr. Livingstone, as stated here, had any 20 history of illegal drug use? 21 A Do I know whether anyone at The 22 White House did a check on that? I don't 217 1 know. 2 Q Based on your investigation or any 3 information you may have, do you know whether 4 or not Mr. Livingstone had prior background 5 in security matters before he was hired as 6 the director of White House security? 7 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 8 form. 9 THE WITNESS: There was some issue 10 about Craig's background that came up during 11 Clinger's hearings on the FBI files matter, 12 and I don't remember what it was. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q No, but I'm asking you, do you have 15 any information as to whether anyone in The 16 White House had checked Craig Livingstone's 17 background out to see whether he had security 18 background, before he was hired as the 19 director of Office of White House Personnel 20 Security? 21 A Craig had a security check -- I 22 remember in '96, we learned that Craig had 218 1 had a background check and had been cleared 2 at some point in time, and it was before they 3 were actually issuing the hard passes, but 4 that, yes, he had had a background check that 5 had been done in the normal course when he 6 came to work at The White House. 7 Q Do you know whether or not anyone 8 at The White House ever saw fit to determine 9 whether he had any background in security 10 matters before he was hired? 11 A I don't know that. 12 Q Do you know whether anyone at The 13 White House ever checked to see whether or 14 not Livingstone had a history of drug use 15 before he was hired at The White House? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Alcohol use? 18 A No, I don't know anything about 19 anyone at The White House making any checks 20 about alcohol or drug use of Craig 21 Livingstone. 22 Q Do you have any knowledge as to 219 1 whether or not Livingstone put forward 2 correct information on his SF-86 form in 3 applying for the job at The White House? 4 A I have no knowledge about that. 5 Q Neither you nor anyone else that 6 you know of ever investigated that matter, 7 correct? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Neither I nor anyone 10 else ever investigated whether he put correct 11 information on his SF-86? I didn't 12 investigate that. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 15 A No. 16 Q If you were to have learned that 17 Mr. Livingstone did not have a background in 18 security and, in fact, did not put forward 19 correct information on his SF-86 and, in 20 fact, did have a past history -- I'm just 21 saying this hypothetically -- with alcohol 22 and drug use, would you have asked further 220 1 questions as to how Craig Livingstone was 2 hired? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the form 4 of the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Is the SF-86 -- what 6 is that? That sounds familiar, but I can't 7 remember. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q It's a questionnaire that you fill 10 out, in order that you can have a background 11 security check done on you? 12 A The question is, if I had known 13 that someone had -- 14 Q If, hypothetically, you had learned 15 these things about Livingstone when you did 16 your investigation as to what had occurred 17 when the file issue first broke, would you 18 have asked Mrs. Clinton more than whether or 19 not she knew Craig Livingstone's mother? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 22 file issue. 221 1 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said, I 2 asked her if she knew Craig Livingstone's 3 mother and if she knew Craig Livingstone, and 4 when she said no, or said what she said about 5 having only recently come to recognize who 6 Craig Livingstone was, I didn't follow up 7 with her. That's the fact. There was no 8 further question implied or necessary, as far 9 as I was concerned. 10 Your question is, if I had learned 11 there were problems with Craig, would I have 12 asked her more questions? It would depend 13 what the problems were and if they seemed to 14 have anything to do with her, I may have 15 asked her further questions. If there were 16 problems that seemed to be wholly unrelated 17 to her, I probably wouldn't have. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Basically, you trusted 20 Mrs. Clinton? 21 A I have never had any reason not to 22 trust Mrs. Clinton. 222 1 Q Basically, when she tells you that 2 she had nothing to do with something, you 3 believe her, as a general matter? 4 A With respect to Mrs. Clinton, like 5 everyone else that I dealt with in The White 6 House, I had a variety of sources of 7 information about things, and if something 8 didn't appear correct to me, I usually went 9 back to the person and asked them to clarify 10 or think about it again, or, you know, 11 understand if there was anything that I had 12 missed. I had never had occasion, with 13 respect to this issue on Craig Livingstone, 14 to think that Mrs. Clinton had told me 15 anything but the absolute truth when she said 16 she didn't know his mother beyond -- I think 17 she was concerned that, you know, there was a 18 possibility she shook Mrs. Livingstone's hand 19 in a rope line or something, and that she did 20 not know Craig Livingstone beyond just having 21 recently recognized who he was. 22 Q I understand that. But what I'm 223 1 saying is, as a general rule, when you dealt 2 with Mrs. Clinton at The White House, you 3 have accepted her word as truth? 4 A As a general rule -- 5 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I would say that I 7 learned as much as I could about the matters 8 that I was responsible for, and asked 9 questions of Mrs. Clinton and anyone else 10 that I thought needed to be asked, until I 11 was satisfied that I had the complete 12 information, and I never had any reason to 13 believe that Mrs. Clinton ever withheld 14 information from me or told me anything that 15 was not completely truthful. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Do you have any reason to believe 18 that Mrs. Clinton has not always been 19 truthful to the American public? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 21 relevancy. 22 MR. GURNEY: Join. 224 1 THE WITNESS: Do I have any reason 2 to believe Mrs. Clinton has not always been 3 truthful to the American public? 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Correct. 6 A I have every reason to believe that 7 Mrs. Clinton is a truthful person and that 8 she has been truthful to the American public. 9 Q Do you know of any instance where 10 she has not been truthful? 11 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 12 form of the question and the breadth of the 13 question and its relevance. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: You say, no, you have 15 not? I think I know the answer. 16 (The reporter read the record as 17 requested.) 18 THE WITNESS: Do you mean truthful, 19 generally, or -- 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q My question was, do you know of any 22 instance where Mrs. Clinton has lied to the 225 1 American people? 2 A Absolutely not. 3 Q On any issue? 4 A Absolutely not. 5 Q Do you know any instance where 6 she's told a little fib? 7 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: What, like -- 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Where she shaded the truth? 11 A You look nice, when she didn't 12 think you looked all that nice? I don't 13 know. I can't answer that question. 14 Q So there was absolutely no basis, 15 in and around this time period, for William 16 Sapphire to have written his column calling 17 Mrs. Clinton a congenital liar? 18 A I thought Mr. Sapphire was shameful 19 when he wrote that. 20 Q Going back a little, have you ever 21 had conversations with George Stephanopoulos 22 about documents that he took out of The White 226 1 House when he left? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I've never talked to 4 George about documents. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You ever talk to him about his 7 book? 8 A I may have had a few conversations 9 with him about his book. 10 Q When did he tell you? 11 A They were just passing 12 conversations. He would have told me when he 13 expected it to be published or how it was 14 going or -- you know, it was just chitchat 15 about the progress of the book. 16 Q Did he tell you how he had 17 documented what's in his book? 18 A No. 19 Q Have you read parts of his book? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you read the part where he said 22 that William Sapphire advised him on how to 227 1 keep notes and records of what was going on 2 at The White House while he was there, so he 3 could someday write a book? 4 A No. 5 Q Are you aware of that? 6 A Aware of what? 7 Q Whether or not Sapphire had given 8 him advice of how he could keep records of 9 his White House experience so he could write 10 a book? 11 A No, I'm not aware of that. 12 Q Have you ever met an Anthony 13 Marceca? 14 A Yes. 15 Q When did you meet him? 16 A I met him at the time that he 17 testified before Clinger's committee, and I 18 don't remember when that was. 19 Q In the course of your activities at 20 The White House or otherwise, have you ever 21 obtained any information as to how Marceca 22 came to work with Craig Livingstone, with 228 1 regard to White House security matters? 2 A I did have some understanding of 3 that in 1996. I don't remember much about it 4 at this point. 5 Q If I was to say that he was 6 detailed from the Pentagon, would that 7 refresh your recollection? 8 A I remember that he was detailed 9 from the Defense Department, that he'd been 10 some kind of an investigator there. 11 Q Do you know whether or not he had a 12 prior criminal record? 13 A I don't remember that. I don't 14 remember that he did. 15 Q Do you have any knowledge as to why 16 he's taken the Fifth Amendment before the 17 Senate and in this case? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q Have you ever discussed that with 20 Mr. Marceca or any of his counsel? 21 A I've never discussed it with 22 Mr. Marceca. I did discuss it with his 229 1 counsel. 2 Q What did his counsel tell you? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. I don't 4 think she's at liberty to divulge what his 5 counsel told her. She's acting in her 6 capacity as a counsel in The White House 7 Counsel's Office on a matter that would be 8 covered by the attorney-client privilege. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing 10 her not to answer? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q If this was an innocent 15 bureaucratic snafu, do you have any opinion 16 as to why Marceca has taken the Fifth 17 Amendment? 18 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 19 form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Has it been your experience, in 230 1 your considerable history of being a 2 litigation lawyer, including white collar 3 crime, that people take the Fifth Amendment 4 lightly? 5 A I certainly hope my clients don't. 6 Q You worked in The White House 7 Counsel's Office, and in so doing, you worked 8 with Bill Kennedy, correct? 9 A When you say worked with, what do 10 you mean by that? 11 Q Well, when you were working in The 12 White House Counsel's Office, during your 13 first stay and your second stay in '94, '95, 14 Bill Kennedy was there for part of that 15 period, correct? 16 A That's right. 17 Q Bruce Lindsey was there, correct? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Vince Foster had already died, 20 correct? 21 A That's right. 22 Q Bernard Nussbaum, he had already 231 1 gone on to private practice again at 2 Wachtell, Lipton by that point? 3 A I believe he was back at Wachtell 4 by then. 5 Q In working in The White House 6 Counsel's Office, you would sometimes engage 7 in conversations about the people that had 8 worked there in the past? 9 A With who? 10 Q With anybody. 11 A About people, you mean, like Vince 12 Foster? 13 Q Anybody. 14 A Conversations with anyone about 15 someone who used to work there, but no longer 16 works there? 17 Q Mm-hmm. 18 A Well, in the course of the work 19 that I was doing, conducting the internal 20 investigation of The White House Treasury 21 contacts, I had conversations with people 22 about some White House officials. Bernie's 232 1 the only one I can think of, off the top of 2 my head who no longer worked there. 3 Q What did you discuss about Bernie? 4 A Well, in the course of the inquiry 5 related to The White House Treasury contacts, 6 as well as to the Foster document handling, 7 it was asking various people what they 8 remembered about certain meetings, and what 9 Bernie's role had been and what actions he 10 had taken in connection with those two 11 matters that I was focussed on. 12 Q You were aware that Bernard 13 Nussbaum had worked with Hillary Clinton on 14 the Watergate Committee back in the 15 early '70s, correct? 16 A I wasn't aware of what Mr. Nussbaum 17 did in that connection. I knew that he had 18 worked on -- I believe that he had worked on 19 the campaign and had been involved in some 20 way in responding to questions about that 21 matter. 22 Q You were aware that Vince Foster 233 1 had been Hillary Clinton's former partner at 2 the Rose Law Firm? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You were aware that Bill Kennedy 5 had been Hillary Clinton's former partner at 6 the Rose Law Firm? 7 A Yes. 8 Q You were aware that Bruce Lindsey 9 had been close to the Clintons since their 10 days in Arkansas, correct? 11 A Since their days in Arkansas, you 12 mean before -- 13 Q To The White House? 14 A Coming to The White House? Yes. 15 Q He had worked for a firm called 16 Wright, Lindsey, and Jennings, correct? 17 A Yes, I knew that. 18 Q You were aware that, in fact, many 19 of the lawyers in the White House Counsel's 20 Office had at one time either worked with or 21 knew Hillary Clinton from Arkansas, correct? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 234 1 THE WITNESS: No, I was not aware 2 of that. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Are you saying you never learned, 5 during the time you were at The White House 6 Counsel's Office, that Foster and Kennedy 7 come from the Rose Law Firm? 8 A No. You just asked me that. I 9 said yes. 10 Q You're saying that you didn't know 11 that Bernard Nussbaum had worked with Hillary 12 Clinton on the Watergate Committee? 13 A I don't know when I learned that. 14 Q You're saying you didn't know that 15 Lindsey was a close friend of the Clintons 16 from Arkansas before he came to The White 17 House Counsel's Office? 18 A I believe I just said that I did 19 know that. 20 Q During the time that you worked in 21 The White House Counsel's Office, you came to 22 learn, did you not, that Hillary Clinton had 235 1 recommended these people to work in The White 2 House Counsel's Office: Nussbaum, Foster, 3 Kennedy, Lindsey? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to the form 5 of the question. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't think I ever 7 knew how they came to work in the Counsel's 8 Office. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You just thought it was spontaneous 11 generation that they got there? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: It was not a question 14 about which I had any particular interest. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Has that ever dawned on you, that 17 this White House counsel was literally packed 18 with former Rose Law Firm partners and 19 friends of the Clintons? 20 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Has it ever dawned on 22 me? 236 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yeah. 3 A I don't think I attached any 4 particular significance to the fact that 5 Kennedy and Foster were her former partners. 6 When I came to work in The White House, I 7 brought people with me from my law firm. I 8 don't think -- when I started working there 9 in '94, I don't think Bruce Lindsey was in 10 the Counsel's Office, and with Bernie 11 Nussbaum, I'm not sure I really knew what the 12 association had been. 13 Q You have had conversations with 14 Mrs. Clinton where you've discussed the 15 loyalty of people in The White House, 16 correct? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you 19 mean by that. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You have had conversations where 22 you've discussed whether a particular person 237 1 or persons were loyal to the Clintons? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q With Mrs. Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 7 that. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You don't know, one way or the 10 other? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton 15 whether she had recommended Nussbaum, 16 Kennedy, Foster, and Lindsey for The White 17 House Counsel's Office? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you believe that was relevant 20 as to whether or not she had recommended 21 Craig Livingstone for his job? 22 A No. 238 1 Q You are aware that Livingstone 2 worked for The White House counsel? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You're aware that he worked under 5 the direction of Bill Kennedy, correct? 6 A For some period of time, I believe 7 that's right. 8 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton 9 whether she had hired Nussbaum, Foster, 10 Kennedy, and/or Lindsey? 11 A No. 12 Q When you were at The White House, 13 Mrs. Clinton did have a reputation of getting 14 involved in the hiring of some personnel, 15 correct? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you 18 mean by that. I didn't know that she had 19 hired -- made a practice of getting involved 20 in hiring of some personnel. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You are aware that she sometimes 239 1 got involved in hiring personnel in The White 2 House? 3 A What do you mean by "got involved 4 in"? 5 Q Played a role. 6 A I'm not sure what that means. 7 Q It's a very simple phraseology, 8 Ms. Sherburne, had anything to do with the 9 hiring of personnel in The White House. You 10 are aware that Hillary Clinton, from time to 11 time, did play some role, however small, in 12 hiring personnel in The White House? 13 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 14 form. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm aware that there 16 may have been occasions where she asked 17 questions about the hiring of certain people, 18 but I don't have a sense, from my own 19 experience, of any kind of widespread 20 involvement, other than an occasional 21 question about the status of some particular 22 decision. I didn't have much to do with the 240 1 hiring of people in The White House, other 2 than my own staff. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q In fact, you interviewed with 5 Mrs. Clinton, correct? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 7 the question. 8 THE WITNESS: I interviewed with 9 Mrs. Clinton? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q For your job in The White House. 12 A I met with Mrs. Clinton after I had 13 already been working in The White House. 14 Q You never met with her prior to the 15 second time that you worked in The White 16 House? 17 A Well, in '94 I had met her and met 18 with her. If, from the time I -- if your 19 question is, from the time I left The White 20 House in October and the time I returned in 21 January, did I meet with her? I don't 22 believe I did. 241 1 Q It was the reputation of 2 Mrs. Clinton in The White House that she was 3 sometimes involved in personnel matters, 4 correct? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm not familiar with 7 that reputation. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In fact, it was Mrs. Clinton's 10 reputation in The White House that she 11 sometimes got involved in firing White House 12 employees? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MR. GURNEY: Join. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that 16 either. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q In fact, you are aware of evidence 19 that Mrs. Clinton wanted the Travel Office 20 fired? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MR. GURNEY: Join. 242 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 2 relevancy. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm aware -- the 4 question is, am I aware that Mrs. Clinton 5 wanted the Travel Office employees fired? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q No, that's not my question. 8 A Okay, what's your question. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Read back the 10 question. I can rephrase it, actually. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You are aware that evidence that 13 Mrs. Clinton wanted the Travel Office fired? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 15 MR. GURNEY: Join. 16 THE WITNESS: What evidence are you 17 referring to? 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You're aware of a memorandum 20 written by David Watkins that said Hillary 21 wanted the Travel Office people out; she 22 wants our people in? 243 1 A I'm aware that David Watkins, I 2 believe, testified that he never had a 3 conversation with Mrs. Clinton in which she 4 said that, that he derived that intention 5 from her through conversations that he had 6 with others. 7 Q But you are aware of a memorandum 8 that he wrote where he says that Hillary 9 wanted the Travel Office fired? Yes or no. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm aware of his 12 testimony that that memorandum was based on 13 information that he got from others and not 14 from Mrs. Clinton. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Why are you resisting answering my 17 questions directly, Ms. Sherburne? 18 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Why is that? 21 A I'm not. 22 Q I simply asked you whether you knew 244 1 he had written such a memorandum. I didn't 2 ask you 25 other questions as to whether the 3 memorandum was correct or not. I just asked 4 you whether he wrote a memorandum that said 5 in it that Hillary Clinton wants the Travel 6 Office people out. It calls for a yes or no. 7 A Do you have the memorandum? 8 Q Well, I'm going to first ask you 9 the question. Are you aware of such a 10 memorandum? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: There was a 13 memorandum that David Watkins wrote that I 14 learned about in late December, early January 15 of '95/96, that addressed the subject of the 16 Travel Office and his own role. I'm aware of 17 that memorandum. I don't know if that's the 18 one you're referring to. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Are you aware that in that, or 21 another memorandum, he wrote that Hillary 22 Clinton wanted the Travel Office people out? 245 1 A I'd have to review the memorandum. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you remember that, as of today? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you remember that as of now? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 10 precisely what the memorandum said. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q In the course of your time at The 13 White House, did you ever come to learn that 14 FBI materials were taken out of The White 15 House from time to time by people in The 16 White House Counsel's Office? 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever ask? 21 A Did I ever ask anyone if they had 22 taken FBI materials out of The White House? 246 1 Q Outside of The White House. 2 A I may have asked Craig Livingstone 3 that question, and I may have asked Tony 4 Marceca's lawyer. 5 Q What did they tell you? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, she can't 7 answer with respect to Mr. Marceca's lawyer. 8 I would instruct you not to answer that 9 question. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q What did either Mr. Livingstone or 13 Mr. Marceca tell you? 14 A I never -- I don't remember 15 learning that Mr. Livingstone had ever taken 16 any FBI material out of The White House. 17 Q Have you ever seen an FBI 18 background summary or raw data? 19 A I don't -- I think I may have seen 20 one of the Travel Office employees' 21 background summary that was -- that had been 22 in the Office of Records Management. 247 1 Q Who was that? 2 A I think it was Barney Brasseaux. 3 Q How did you come to see that? 4 A When Chairman Clinger had asked his 5 question about how The White House -- why The 6 White House was requesting Billy Dale's FBI 7 file, I was trying to understand why that 8 would be. He had been terminated the 9 previous May. The request was -- I don't 10 know -- December, maybe, of '93, and so I was 11 trying to understand why it was we would have 12 asked for his file after he'd been 13 terminated. So in trying to answer that 14 question, I wondered whether we had asked for 15 the files of all the Travel Office employees 16 who had been terminated at that time. I 17 believe there were five maybe, maybe seven, 18 of them, and so I asked Craig to check and 19 see if we had requested the file of any of 20 the others, and he brought me -- I can't 21 remember if he told me he had Barney 22 Brasseaux's file or he brought it to me, but 248 1 at some point, I think I had it. I think it 2 was orange. I don't remember studying the 3 contents, other than to understand what it 4 was, but I think I did have that. 5 There was another Travel Office 6 employee that -- I can't remember what the 7 circumstances were, related to that fellow. 8 His last name was in the beginning part of 9 the alphabet as well, and I may have seen 10 that file, but I don't recall. I'm pretty 11 sure I saw Barney Brasseaux's file. 12 Q What was orange? The file folder 13 or just the tab? 14 A I think it was the file folder. I 15 could be wrong about the color. Your chairs 16 are orange. I may have orange on my mind. 17 Q They're actually red. 18 A We need another break. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: Tell me, those are 21 orange? 22 MR. GURNEY: They're orange. 249 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Are you seeing spots? 3 A Pretty soon. You're wearing me 4 down, Larry. 5 Q Do you have any knowledge as to how 6 these FBI files were handled when they came 7 over from the FBI by Livingstone or Bill 8 Kennedy? 9 A I had never heard that Bill Kennedy 10 touched them. You mean, the files of former 11 White House employees? 12 Q Holdovers or political appointees. 13 A Yeah, I never had any knowledge or 14 heard that Bill Kennedy handled them at all. 15 As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure Craig 16 handled them, but they came -- I understood 17 that they came back over -- what did I 18 understand? Hmm. I can't remember. 19 I do remember that they were put on 20 some kind of a shelf in the Office of 21 Personnel Security, but I can't remember who 22 they came to and who actually did that. 250 1 Q Did you or anyone else come to 2 learn as to whether you could get FBI 3 material from the FBI on holdover employees 4 or political appointees by just simply making 5 a phone call to the FBI? 6 A I don't remember learning that. 7 Q Do you know of anyone who might 8 know that? 9 A No. 10 Q Are you or anyone that you know of 11 aware that once FBI material comes from the 12 FBI to The White House, that it gets archived 13 and never goes back? You ever hear that? 14 A I had heard that in the Reagan and 15 Bush Administrations and in prior 16 administrations, that the FBI files or 17 background files, not the whole file -- my 18 understanding was that The White House didn't 19 get the entire file, but just a summary of 20 it, that those summary files are not returned 21 to the FBI at the end of an administration, 22 but rather are archived with the Presidential 251 1 papers of whatever administration is 2 departing. I don't remember if the 3 transition from Reagan to Bush, if that 4 happened in that transition, but I believe 5 the transition -- we did document that the 6 transition from Carter to Reagan that 7 occurred and then from Bush to Clinton. 8 Q Do you know whether or not all the 9 FBI file material that came over of 10 nonholdover employees and nonpolitical 11 appointees, the material that's the subject 12 of the Filegate controversy, do you know for 13 a fact that it all was returned to The White 14 House? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 17 your question. You mean -- I'm not sure -- 18 could you say that again? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q These 900 or so FBI files that came 21 over -- 22 A From the summary folders that came 252 1 from the FBI? 2 Q Right. The White House claims it 3 was an innocent bureaucratic snafu. Do you 4 have definitive proof that all of that 5 information was returned to the FBI? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 7 characterization. 8 THE WITNESS: Do I know, sitting 9 here today, that there aren't some FBI files 10 in The White House that -- of employees that 11 no longer work there? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Correct. 14 A I don't know that. The Independent 15 Counsel went into that Office of Personnel 16 Security and into the Office of Records 17 Management and worked through that whole 18 issue, and I don't know what they found or if 19 they were able, at the end of their 20 investigation, to confirm that every file 21 that didn't belong there was no longer there. 22 Q But you, Jane Sherburne, don't know 253 1 whether or not this FBI material, which is 2 the subject of this case, was ever returned 3 to the FBI? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Oh, I know that a 6 substantial number of files were returned. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q But you don't know whether or not 9 all of them were returned? 10 A With complete 100 percent 11 certainty? I don't know if there's -- I 12 couldn't -- no, I don't know if there is 13 possibly still a file or any number of files 14 in The White House of people who have never 15 worked there in the Clinton Administration. 16 Q Did you ever compile a list, when 17 you were at The White House, or do you know 18 of anyone who did, of the files that came 19 over from the FBI which are the subject of 20 this entire controversy? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: There were lists, and 254 1 I don't know if -- I don't know who compiled 2 them. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You didn't have anything to do with 5 them? 6 A I may have. I can't remember. 7 There was a lot of confusion in the early 8 days of this, about the initial boxes that we 9 found, and then Howard Shapiro sent over, you 10 know, another some number that he wanted us 11 to check, and then there were GSA 12 employees -- you know, there were so many 13 different lists floating around of this and 14 that. I don't know if we may have created a 15 list along the way to try and keep track of 16 things or not. I simply don't remember. 17 Q Do you know whether or not FBI 18 materials of people who were not on that list 19 were obtained by The White House, people who 20 were not holdover employees and people who 21 were not political appointees of the Clinton 22 Administration? 255 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: I never had any 3 knowledge of anyone requesting an FBI file of 4 someone whom the requester didn't think was 5 actually someone who was supposed to have 6 access to The White House compound. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You are aware that the FBI files on 9 the Travel Office people were requested about 10 seven months after they were fired? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 12 characterization. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm aware that Billy 14 Dale's file, and I think Barney Brasseaux's 15 file, were requested from the FBI after they 16 had been terminated. I don't remember the 17 precise dates, but I know it was several 18 months after they'd been terminated that the 19 requests were made for the files from the 20 FBI. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you or anyone else ever 256 1 investigate how that happened? 2 A Well, I don't want to dance on the 3 head of a pin with you about what investigate 4 means. We had many discussions about the 5 extent to which The White House should try 6 and investigate and understand what actually 7 had happened there. We were very anxious to 8 understand what had happened there. In the 9 initial stages of this whole episode, the FBI 10 was investigating, and for the most part 11 we -- once we learned the magnitude of the 12 problem, left it to the FBI to try and sort 13 out, and then that investigation was -- 14 eventually, there was some sort of interim 15 report, and that investigation was eventually 16 turned over to the Independent Counsel. 17 So in the early days after Clinger 18 held his press conference and said, why was 19 The White House requesting this FBI file, 20 yes, I spent two or three days where I tried 21 to understand why that would have been and 22 what happened. 257 1 It was during that period of time 2 that I learned about this update project. I 3 learned the identity of Tony Marceca and that 4 he had been detailed to assist on this update 5 project. I learned that we had these files 6 in the Office of Records Management, you 7 know, and asked questions and pursued that, 8 until the point when I turned it all over to 9 the FBI. 10 Q Did you ever have a conversation 11 with Mrs. Clinton where you asked her about 12 the obtaining of the FBI files on the Travel 13 Office staff? 14 A When you say asked her about it, 15 you mean, asked her whether she was involved? 16 Q Any questions about it. 17 A I don't remember ever asking her 18 whether she was involved in obtaining those 19 files. 20 Q Are you aware that IRS materials 21 were obtained about the Travel Office staff? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 258 1 THE WITNESS: There was some issue 2 related to -- all I can see is some form that 3 said tax check waiver on it, and I can't 4 remember its significance, but I think there 5 was some -- in the course of doing a 6 background investigation, there was some 7 waiver that the person being investigated had 8 to sign to let the IRS look at the report on 9 their tax records, and I think that may have 10 been the subject of some of these -- you 11 know, some of the inquiries that were related 12 to these files at the time. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You were aware that Kennedy was 15 involved in obtaining this IRS information? 16 A I think I understood that Kennedy 17 was -- may have been responsible for getting 18 the waivers. You know, the employee who was 19 having the background check done had to sign 20 a waiver permitting the IRS to release that 21 information, and I think, at one point, Bill 22 may have been responsible for the process 259 1 that requested those waivers. 2 Q Do you know why Kennedy resigned 3 from his job? 4 A No, I don't. 5 Q Does it have anything to do with 6 asking the IRS to come in and investigate the 7 Travel Office workers? 8 MR. GURNEY: Objection, asked and 9 answered. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. It may refresh 12 your recollection. 13 A I certainly don't think so. I 14 think that had more to do with family 15 matters. 16 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton as to 17 whether or not she called in the IRS to look 18 into the Travel Office workers? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 260 1 Q Have you ever asked Mrs. Clinton 2 whether she keeps files on perceived 3 adversaries? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form 6 and the term "files." 7 THE WITNESS: I've never asked 8 Mrs. Clinton if she keeps records on 9 adversaries. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you know whether she has a file 12 on Ken Starr? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q Do you know if anyone at The White 15 House had a file on Ken Starr? 16 A I had a file on Ken Starr. 17 Q What was in that file? 18 A His press statements, press 19 clippings, copies of speeches that he gave, 20 that sort of thing. 21 Q The file was labeled Ken Starr? 22 A I think it was actually just 261 1 labeled Starr. 2 Q You sometimes provided materials in 3 that file to people outside of The White 4 House? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 6 relevancy, based on the court's order. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can answer. 9 A Members of my staff provided 10 information that had been published material 11 in the press on request. 12 Q Whom did they provide the 13 information to? 14 A I don't remember. It would have 15 been members of the press, I believe. 16 Q Who on your staff provided that 17 information? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection to 19 relevancy on all these questions. 20 THE WITNESS: It would have been 21 Mark Fabianni. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 262 1 Q Mark Fabianni provided that 2 information with your knowledge? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Your approval? 5 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: By that information, 7 I'm referring to published reports or 8 accounts, press stories related to Ken Starr 9 to people who had requested them. He did 10 provide that information to people who had 11 requested that information. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q With your approval? 14 A With my approval, yes. 15 Q Was any effort made to obtain the 16 authorization of Ken Starr to release that 17 material to the media? 18 A It was all material that was 19 already in the media. These were news 20 stories, a collection of news stories. 21 Q I'm just asking whether you sought 22 Mr. Starr's approval to release that material 263 1 out of his file to the media, you, meaning 2 you or Mr. Fabiani. 3 A It had already been released to the 4 media. 5 Q Did you get his approval before it 6 was done? Did you seek it? 7 A I must be not understanding you. 8 This was -- 9 Q You had a file, you had certain 10 materials in that file. Some of the 11 materials in the file were released to the 12 media. Did you see seek Mr. Starr's 13 permission to release materials in the file 14 on Mr. Starr to the media before materials 15 were released? 16 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 17 and the relevance of this question and all 18 these questions. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 THE WITNESS: I must not have been 22 clear about what was in the file. The file 264 1 was press stories. You know, there would be 2 a Washington Post story about how Ken Starr 3 had been consulting on the Paula Jones' 4 matter, Washington Post story copy of it in 5 the file, so it had already been published. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q The answer to the question is no, 8 you didn't get Starr's approval to release 9 the material? 10 MR. GURNEY: Same objections. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Please respond. 13 A I didn't get Starr's approval to 14 pass on to someone else something that had 15 already been published in The Washington 16 Post? 17 Q Correct. 18 A No, I didn't. 19 Q In the file on Starr, there were 20 some notes that you had taken, correct? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 265 1 MR. GURNEY: Join. 2 THE WITNESS: In my Starr file? 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Yes. 5 A No. 6 Q There were some written memorandum 7 about Starr? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q There were documents that were 12 provided to you about Starr from Williams & 13 Connolly? 14 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you ever get documents about 19 Starr that came from Williams & Connolly's 20 investigators, such as Terry Lenzner? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 266 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Where is that file today? 5 A It's in my office. 6 Q At Wilmer Cutler? 7 A That's right. 8 Q Has anything been removed from that 9 file since you left The White House? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: You mean, have I ever 12 used the file since I left The White House? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Was anything in the file at the 15 time you left The White House which is no 16 longer in the file? 17 A I don't know. I've referred to the 18 file from time to time over the last couple 19 years, and, you know, I may have pulled 20 something out and not stuck it back in, but I 21 don't remember for sure. 22 Q I'm going to ask you to keep that 267 1 file intact. We're going to be asking the 2 court if we can't come to an agreement with 3 counsel to have it produced. So I would ask 4 that you not remove or lose anything in it. 5 A Okay, it's just press clippings. 6 Q Is there anything in that file, 7 other than press clips today? 8 A No. 9 Q Was there ever anything in the file 10 other than press clips? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you know whether other people in 13 The White House kept files on Ken Starr? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Do you know whether other people in 16 The White House kept files on people who The 17 White House considered to be adverse? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q When you worked at The White House, 20 did Mr. Joel Kline work there? 21 A For a period of time. 22 Q Joel Kline kept files on people; 268 1 didn't he? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q He may have? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 THE WITNESS: Kept files on people? 8 He may have. I don't know. I don't 9 remember. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q He kept a file on Ken Starr? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you ever keep a file on the 16 Travel Office staff? 17 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 18 form and the relevance. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 A Did I ever keep a file on the 22 Travel Office staff? Not that I recall. 269 1 Q You may have? 2 A On the Travel Office staff that 3 would have been just related to those five or 4 seven people? 5 Q Right. 6 A I don't think so. 7 Q But you're not absolutely sure? 8 A Well, the Travel Office matter was 9 my responsibility, and I did keep files, and 10 I tended to keep them somewhat by subject 11 matter. I don't believe I had a subject 12 matter file that related to the people who 13 had been fired, but I don't remember for 14 sure. 15 Q You are aware that Bruce Lindsey 16 kept files on some people? 17 A No, I'm not. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Cheryl Mills, she kept files on 21 some people; didn't she? 22 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 270 1 term "files." 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know anything 4 about Cheryl Mills's files. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Turning back to this document -- 7 A The task list, Exhibit -- which 8 one? 9 Q The task list, yes. 10 A Okay. 11 Q Do you see where it says under N on 12 the first page 780463, "Archives -- abuse of 13 personnel system (**)"? What did you mean by 14 that? 15 A I can't remember. If you had The 16 Washington Times article that this was keyed 17 to, it probably has a little paragraph that I 18 could look at to refresh my recollection, but 19 I don't remember. 20 Q In 1994, you had learned that there 21 could be a problem with the Office of 22 Personnel Security, correct? 271 1 A No. 2 Q In fact, you'd received 3 information, in and around that time period, 4 that Craig Livingstone and company were 5 getting the FBI files and summary reports on 6 nonholdover employees and nonpolitical 7 appointees? 8 A I didn't know that until June 9 of '96. I had no information about that 10 until June of '96. 11 Q Turn to page 2. That's Bates 12 Number 780644, Number 2 under the two iis, 13 the two little iis, "hype HRC threat to white 14 man, traditional women." What does that 15 mean? 16 A Well, if you see, before that 17 there's a reference. It says Preliminaries. 18 These are issues, preliminaries -- you know, 19 I'm trying to figure out how to manage the 20 response to all these various investigations 21 that we were anticipating, which are -- you 22 know, the possible ones are detailed in 272 1 Number 1. Number 2 is, we'll figure out what 2 they're trying to accomplish, what are they 3 going to want to do in the course of these 4 investigations. 5 So you see A, it says, "identify 6 key republican objectives and routes for 7 achieving them," and my observation at the 8 time is that one of the things that the 9 Republicans would be interested in doing in 10 the course of the next couple years -- this 11 was in 1994 -- would be to emphasize the 12 threat that Mrs. Clinton might pose to -- I 13 think I said white man and more traditional 14 women who were less comfortable with her 15 particular life choices. 16 Q Turn to the next page. 17 A Can't I talk about that some more? 18 Q About white men? Look at 780645. 19 Letter J, number Roman Numeral iv, 20 surrogates, what did you mean by surrogates? 21 That's under offensive structure, surrogates. 22 A In my preliminary thinking about 273 1 this in December of '94, I was trying to 2 think about what we would want to do in 3 dealing with these various investigations 4 that we were anticipating, what we could do 5 that would put us on the offensive instead of 6 always on the defensive. If we were going to 7 be investigated -- if The White House was 8 going to be investigated, we obviously were 9 going to be defending against those 10 investigations, and was there anything we 11 could do to be positive and offensive in that 12 whole climate? And so these were some 13 thoughts that I had had about who or how -- 14 what opportunities we might have for getting 15 out a positive message, and surrogates would 16 have been people who were willing to speak 17 favorably about The White House, about the 18 President, about Mrs. Clinton, in the context 19 of these various investigations who were not 20 White House officials or White House 21 employees. 22 Q Who did you have in mind as the 274 1 surrogates? 2 A People like Mr. Cutler. 3 Q Anybody else? 4 A There were several people like 5 that. 6 Q James Carville? 7 A I don't know that I had Carville in 8 mind in thinking about that, but Carville has 9 certainly functioned in that capacity. 10 Q Harold Ickes? 11 A Well, Harold was employed in The 12 White House. 13 Q Williams & Connolly, is that the 14 reference at Number 2? 15 A W & C, that probably does refer to 16 Williams & Connolly. 17 Q They were thought of as a 18 surrogate? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 20 THE WITNESS: Surrogate is a 21 separate entry. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 275 1 Q Was it proper for The White House 2 to be working for the DNC, the DCCC, or the 3 DSCC in terms of an offensive structure? 4 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: I believed that the 6 offensive -- that certain offensive 7 activities would be more properly handled by 8 the DNC, the DCCC, and the DSCC than within 9 The White House, and, yes, when there's a 10 Democratic President, one would expect that 11 he would work with the DNC, and that his 12 administration would similarly in a 13 Republican administration. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Turn to page 780646, under part F, 16 issue specific tasks, 1, security/Livingstone 17 issues, what were those issues in December 18 of 1994? 19 A Well, if you look back to the 20 preceding page, you can see that all of these 21 entries are under the heading Foster Document 22 Handling, and so I went through A, B, C, D, 276 1 E, F under Foster Document Handling. This 2 was my way of starting to think about, you 3 know, the first issue up was going to be 4 Foster document handling. What did we need 5 to do? Who did we need to talk to and what 6 were the tasks that we'd need to undertake in 7 order to get ready for the hearings that we 8 expected D'Amato to have. 9 One of the issues that I knew we 10 were going to have to understand better, 11 related to Craig Livingstone, and that would 12 have been some concern that the Independent 13 Counsel was investigating in the summer 14 of '94 about whether Livingstone was in Vince 15 Foster's office early in the morning of 16 July 21, 1993, and had removed a box or taken 17 something out of that office or that suite. 18 There was a Uniformed Division agent who sat 19 at the desk inside the entrance to the ground 20 floor of the West Wing, and an agent who had 21 been sitting there early on the morning of 22 July 21st believed that he saw someone who 277 1 may have been Craig Livingstone coming out 2 with some documents or a box, or a briefcase, 3 or there was something. So I didn't know 4 much about that, but I figured it would be an 5 issue that we would need to understand better 6 as we were preparing for the Foster document 7 handling hearings. So that was at the top of 8 the list of issue-specific tasks, learn more 9 about that. 10 I believe that I understood that 11 Joel Kline had been in communication, either 12 with the Independent Counsel, or with Randy 13 Turk, or maybe both. Randy was Craig's 14 lawyer, and so it was to find out what Joel 15 knew, review whatever file Joel might have on 16 this subject, consult with Craig's lawyer, 17 interview Craig, and then do -- add him into 18 the fact memo. 19 Q Were all those things done? 20 A I don't think I ever interviewed 21 Craig. I did talk to his lawyer. 22 Q You were concerned, were you not, 278 1 that Livingstone may have gone into Foster's 2 office and gotten his hands on White House 3 security files on employees and political 4 appointees? 5 A No. 6 Q In retrospect, after the FBI files 7 scandal broke, did you think that perhaps 8 Livingstone went into Foster's office to 9 remove FBI materials? 10 A I didn't know, and Craig -- now 11 we're -- we're not in '94 any more; I take 12 it? 13 Q We're in '96 now. 14 A We're in '96 now. 15 Q That's what I mean by in 16 retrospect. 17 A In '96, I don't think I went back 18 and asked that question. 19 Q It makes sense though; doesn't it? 20 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 21 form. 22 THE WITNESS: I believe part of 279 1 Craig's responsibility was to bring FBI file 2 material to the Counsel's Office in 3 connection with evaluating various employees, 4 or if there was a question that came up, it 5 was Craig who ran the office. He was the one 6 who, you know, who you call to bring the 7 file, and so it would have been part of 8 Craig's job to take files back and forth from 9 the Counsel's Office to the Office of 10 Personnel Security. At some point, I did 11 learn that, and I don't know if it was '94 12 or '96. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q So, in fact, it would have been 15 quite logical for Mr. Livingstone, after 16 Mr. Foster died, to go into his office to see 17 if there was any FBI material there so he 18 could resecure it in his office? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 20 MR. GURNEY: Join. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know. That 22 actually strikes me as illogical. 280 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Why is that? 3 A Because the office -- you know, 4 Bernie was in the office that night. It 5 strikes me as something that Craig -- would 6 have been unlikely for Craig to have done on 7 his own. It was somebody else's office. 8 Q You or anyone that you know of, did 9 you ever ask Livingstone or anyone else, did 10 you go into Foster's office to remove FBI 11 material before the FBI got there, at any 12 time? 13 A I believe at some point I asked 14 Mr. Livingstone if it was possible that he 15 had been transporting material from the 16 Counsel's Office to the Office of Personnel 17 Security related to his -- the performance of 18 his duties, early in the morning on the 21st, 19 and I think -- although I'm not sure, I think 20 that the records of his being there and so 21 forth didn't support that, and I believe his 22 answer was that he hadn't. But I'm not sure; 281 1 I can't remember. 2 Q Did you or anyone else ever ask 3 Mrs. Clinton whether she had ordered 4 Livingstone or anyone else to go into 5 Foster's office to remove FBI files and/or 6 summary material? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 MR. GURNEY: Yes, objection as to 9 the form. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton 13 whether or not she sent Maggie Williams into 14 Foster's office to remove FBI materials on 15 individuals? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you know of anyone who did ask 20 that question? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Of Mrs. Clinton? 282 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yes. 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know whether or not Vince 5 Foster was engaged in reviewing FBI materials 6 on nonholdover employees and nonpolitical 7 appointees of the Clinton Administration? 8 A No, I have no knowledge that he 9 was. 10 Q You don't know that he was or he 11 wasn't? 12 A I don't know. Although it seems to 13 me that there were records that showed that 14 the files didn't even come back from the FBI 15 until after Vince's death, but I'm not sure 16 of that. 17 Q Did you ever hear any discussion 18 inside The White House or outside The White 19 House that perhaps Vince Foster died because 20 he was involved in reviewing FBI files? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I've never heard 283 1 that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Had you ever met Foster? 4 A No. 5 Q His reputation was excellent; 6 wasn't it? 7 A There were many people who were 8 very fond of him and thought highly of him. 9 Q He was thought to be a very ethical 10 lawyer? 11 A That that was his reputation within 12 The White House? 13 Q Yes. 14 A I'm not sure I know what his 15 reputation was within The White House, but I 16 certainly heard people make that observation 17 about him. 18 Q He was known to be someone who 19 wouldn't take kindly to being asked to 20 violate the law? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: I never met the man, 284 1 and I don't know -- that's going beyond my 2 knowledge. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You don't know of any such 5 reputation; do you? 6 A Do I know, whether he had a 7 reputation as being someone who wouldn't take 8 kindly to being -- 9 Q Asked to violate the law. 10 A To violate the law? I didn't know 11 the man. I don't know. I don't know. 12 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton about 13 her relationship with Vince Foster? 14 A I probably did. 15 Q What did you ask her? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Before she answers 17 that question, may I have a moment to 18 consult, please? We need to take a 19 two-minute break, please. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: For what? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: To determine if we 22 need to make a privilege instruction. 285 1 MR. KLAYMAN: What would be the 2 distinction between that and any other 3 question? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, there's a lot 5 of distinction. You're asking directly about 6 a conversation that's not relevant and that's 7 subject to privilege, so if we can avoid any 8 kind of privilege instruction, we'll do so. 9 We need to find out what the answer is first 10 in order to do that. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: We object. Off the 12 record. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 14 video record at 4:10. 15 (Recess) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on 17 video record at 4:20. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We have a question 19 pending. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: We'll allow 21 Ms. Sherburne to answer that question, and as 22 a double bonus, we'll withdraw our objection 286 1 to the attorney-client privilege with respect 2 to Ms. Sherburne's conversations with 3 Mr. Marceca's lawyers, so you can reask her 4 those questions, if you care to. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read the 6 pending question? 7 (The reporter read the record as 8 requested.) 9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 10 precisely what I asked her. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Give us the gist of what you asked 13 her. 14 A I think it would be just be easier 15 if I just gave you the gist of the 16 conversation. 17 Q All right, give us what you 18 remember. 19 A I remember her saying that Vince 20 was a wonderful colleague, that he was one of 21 those rare men in a law firm who women were 22 very comfortable working with, that he had an 287 1 acceptance about him and an openness to 2 working with a wide variety of people, but 3 particularly with women, that he was a 4 terrific mentor in the law firm because of 5 how supportive of he was, that he was a good 6 teacher, and that she had valued him and 7 valued his service in The White House and in 8 The White House Counsel's Office in many 9 respects for those reasons, that he had 10 performed similar roles with people in The 11 White House, he had become very close to 12 Maggie Williams, which didn't surprise her, 13 given what she knew about his -- the ease 14 with which he worked with women. Then she 15 also talked about how devastated she was when 16 he died. 17 Q Was she crying when she said that? 18 A No. 19 Q Did she tell you anything about how 20 she thought he may have died? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember -- 288 1 the presumption in the conversation was that 2 his death was a suicide. I don't remember 3 actually talking about whether or not it was. 4 That was the presumption. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did you ask her what would have 7 driven Vince to kill himself? 8 A I don't remember asking her that 9 question. 10 Q At any time when you worked in The 11 White House or thereafter, did you ever ask 12 yourself, maybe that's the key to what was 13 going on in The White House Office of 14 Personnel Security? 15 A The cause for Vince's suicide? 16 Q Right. 17 A I don't think it ever occurred to 18 me that anything related to the Office of 19 Personnel Security contributed to Vince's 20 suicide, then or now. 21 Q Have you ever learned that Craig 22 Livingstone went to the morgue to identify 289 1 Vince's body? 2 A Yes, I did know that. 3 Q Have you, or anyone else that you 4 know of, looked into why it was Livingstone 5 who went to the morgue? 6 A Yes, we did. We did look into 7 that, and I can't remember what we learned. 8 But at the time when we were, you know, 9 investigating the -- what I call the Foster 10 document handling issue, we did ask the 11 question, why was it Craig who was notified, 12 and why was it Craig who went to the morgue. 13 Q Well, you've got a situation where 14 a controversy arose over who was in Foster's 15 office after he died. What documents and 16 things were removed? The involvement of 17 Craig Livingstone in identifying the body, a 18 situation which later arose concerning Craig 19 Livingstone and The White House Counsel's 20 Office over the review of FBI materials, have 21 you ever reflected on that and said maybe all 22 these things are related? 290 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 THE WITNESS: Related in what 3 sense? I mean, Craig Livingstone is the 4 person that you're obviously -- you're 5 tracking Craig Livingstone's experiences in 6 The White House, and they're all related to 7 Craig Livingstone. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Craig Livingstone has been 10 identified as the person who improperly 11 obtained FBI files on nonholdover employees 12 and nonpolitical appointees. Craig 13 Livingstone has been identified as being in 14 Foster's office shortly after he died. 15 Livingstone is someone who's been identified 16 as someone who identified Foster's body at 17 the morgue. Livingstone has been discussed 18 before Congressional committees with regard 19 to his lack of qualification for the job of 20 director of Office of White House Personnel 21 Security, termed a bar bouncer in Woodward's 22 book, as well as others. There's a whole 291 1 aura here of unanswered questions as to who 2 hired him, what he was doing at the morgue, 3 what he was doing in Foster's office, why 4 these FBI files came from the FBI. 5 Have you or anyone else that you 6 know of ever asked whether this whole 7 question of Foster's death is related to 8 Craig Livingstone and the FBI files? 9 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 10 form of the question. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 12 characterization. 13 THE WITNESS: There's a lot in your 14 roll-up that I would take issue with, but the 15 answer to your -- the final part of that, 16 which I understood to be the question, is 17 have I ever wondered whether Livingstone -- 18 now I'm not sure I even remember the 19 question -- whether Livingstone and the FBI 20 files had anything to do with Foster's death, 21 was that your question? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 292 1 Q In essence. 2 A No, I have never wondered that, 3 before you put that to me right now. 4 Q Good point; isn't it? 5 A I think it's actually kind of a 6 fantastic point myself, but I don't think 7 that is relevant to your -- 8 Q Why is that fantastic? 9 A Well, the death of Vince Foster has 10 been investigated a few times. Fisk released 11 a report in the summer of '95 -- summer 12 of '94 about his investigation, and he 13 concluded there that Vince's death was 14 related to -- or the sort of trigger to this 15 suicidal impulse that he had was the Travel 16 Office matter. In all the work that I did on 17 the Travel Office matter and reviewing Fisk's 18 very carefully done and thorough report, I 19 concluded that that had to be right, and 20 there wasn't anything about this FBI files 21 matter that suggested to me that anyone knew 22 about it at the time, much less was worried 293 1 about it. I never saw anything that 2 suggested, nor am I aware of any 3 Congressional committee or any investigating 4 body, that has concluded that Craig 5 Livingstone deliberately sought these files, 6 much less that Vince Foster knew about that. 7 Everything that I'm aware of has suggested 8 that this was a mistake, and that the files 9 were never reviewed or used in any improper 10 manner, once they were received by The White 11 House. 12 So for you to suggest now that that 13 could have somehow had something to do with 14 Vince Foster's death back in July of 1993 15 sounds fantastic to me. 16 Q You didn't know, did you, that 17 Linda Tripp claims to have seen FBI files of 18 the Travel Office workers in Foster's office 19 before those workers were fired? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to form of the 21 question. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to form. 294 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You didn't know that; did you? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: You're asking me if I 6 knew that Linda Tripp has claimed that she 7 saw FBI files -- 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In Foster's office, on his desk, 10 and in his safe in Nussbaum's office before 11 those Travel Office workers were fired? 12 A She's claimed that recently, I take 13 it? 14 Q She testified to that? 15 A In the last? 16 Q Since last December. 17 A Since last December? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I may have recently 20 become aware of that. That doesn't change my 21 conclusion that this suggestion is fantastic. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 295 1 Q How did you become aware of that? 2 MR. GURNEY: I instruct her not to 3 answer on the grounds of privilege. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q When you conducted an investigation 7 before the FBI came in on the FBI files 8 matter, did you ever talk to Linda Tripp? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 11 A To Linda Tripp? 12 Q (Nodding) 13 A In the two or three days that we 14 were trying to understand what happened with 15 Billy Dale's file? 16 Q (Nodding) 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know whether or not Linda 19 Tripp had a conversation with Bruce Lindsey 20 about what she had observed concerning these 21 FBI files of the Travel Office? 22 A No. 296 1 Q Did you ever discuss anything with 2 Lindsey about Tripp? 3 A No. 4 Q Are you aware that Ms. Tripp 5 testified that she told Lindsey about what 6 she had seen concerning the FBI files of 7 Travel Office people and others, and that 8 Lindsey replied, talk like that will get you 9 destroyed? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 12 THE WITNESS: I've learned about 13 that recently, that there's something -- some 14 sense that she said something related, or 15 along the lines of what you've just 16 described. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q How did you learn about that? 19 MR. GURNEY: I instruct you not to 20 answer on the grounds of privilege. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 297 1 Q Did your counsel relate to you what 2 Tripp testified to? 3 MR. GURNEY: I instruct you not to 4 answer that on the grounds of privilege. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Before your deposition today? 7 MR. GURNEY: Same instruction. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you know that The White House 11 had obtained the FBI file on Linda Tripp? 12 Did you know that? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 15 THE WITNESS: Linda Tripp was a 16 holdover employee, and I believe at some 17 point, when I reviewed a list of the files 18 that The White House had requested of 19 holdover employees, that Linda Tripp's name 20 was on there, and that we concluded that her 21 file had been appropriately and properly 22 requested. 298 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Do you know why Linda Tripp was 3 transferred to the Pentagon? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you know of anyone who has that 6 information? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know why Linda Tripp's FBI 9 file was obtained one year after she began 10 working for Bernie Nussbaum? 11 A I don't know when her FBI file was 12 obtained. 13 Q Did you ever discuss Linda Tripp 14 with Mrs. Clinton? 15 A Possibly. 16 Q What did you discuss with 17 Mrs. Clinton? 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 20 and overbreadth and relevancy. 21 MR. GURNEY: Join. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 299 1 Q What did you discuss with 2 Mrs. Clinton? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: About Linda Tripp? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Yes. 7 A Linda Tripp and Deb Gorham 8 testified before D'Amato's committee in 1995, 9 I believe, about an E-mail exchange that they 10 had, and I may have had a brief discussion 11 with Mrs. Clinton about that, but I don't 12 remember the specifics. 13 Q How did you conclude that Linda 14 Tripp's FBI file was properly obtained by The 15 White House? 16 A I think that the -- I'm sure you 17 have the documents in the -- I believe, and 18 I'm not sure about this, but that the list 19 that Howard sent back that he wanted us to 20 verify, I think had Linda Tripp's name on it, 21 but I'm not sure. 22 Q That's all you remember? 300 1 A Yes. 2 Q Turn to the next page of this memo 3 that you wrote in December of '94. What 4 exhibit number is that? Six? 5 A Five. 6 Q Five. 780647, at the top, Number 7 3, chain of custody, retransfer of Clinton 8 personal files, complete interviews. What 9 did you mean by chain of custody, retransfer 10 of Clinton personal files? 11 A There were some materials that 12 Bernie Nussbaum had identified from Vince's 13 office that he believed were related to 14 personal matters of the Clintons, and it was 15 those files that he identified that 16 eventually ended up at Williams & Connolly. 17 By chain of custody, what I meant was nail 18 down where those files moved along the way 19 between Vince's office and Williams & 20 Connolly. The people on this list were 21 people who I apparently thought I still 22 needed to talk to in order to make sure that 301 1 I fully understood the chain of custody. 2 Q So you interviewed Linda Tripp? 3 A I believe a member of my staff 4 interviewed her lawyer. 5 Q What did she tell you? 6 A What did her lawyer tell the member 7 of my staff? I don't remember. 8 Q Why is Bob Barnett listed there? 9 A Barnett had come over to The White 10 House, I believe, on July 27th, to take 11 custody of the documents and was part of the 12 chain of custody, and so I wanted to 13 understand his role in the chain of custody, 14 too. 15 Q Flip to the next page. 16 That's 780,648,765, at the top under Number 4 17 Foster's suicide, A, Chris Ruddy, Center for 18 Western Journalism. What did you mean by 19 that? 20 A Chris Ruddy was a reporter and had 21 worked or was affiliated with the Center for 22 Western Journalism, and he believed that 302 1 Foster's death was not a suicide and used 2 publications from the Center for Western 3 Journalism to advertise and promote that view 4 and to try and persuade others that any 5 investigation that had concluded that the 6 death was a suicide was incomplete and some 7 sort of a fraud. 8 Q Why did you put that in this 9 document? 10 A At this point in December of '94, I 11 wasn't sure if the hearings on the Foster 12 document handling would also include hearings 13 on the cause of Foster's death, and whether 14 that would be something that we would have to 15 deal with. I actually had thought that the 16 Fisk report the previous summer, or that 17 summer, had conclusively put that issue to 18 bed, that it was resolved, but Chris Ruddy 19 was still out there, and trying to stir 20 things up and had critiqued Fisk's report. 21 So I wasn't sure if he and others who felt as 22 he did would be successful in persuading 303 1 D'Amato or Clinger -- was it Clinger? I 2 guess it was Clinger -- to hold hearings into 3 the actual circumstances surrounding Vince's 4 death. So that was, obviously, something 5 we'll have to deal with, and I put it on 6 here. 7 Q You've discussed Chris Ruddy with 8 Mrs. Clinton; haven't you? 9 A I don't believe so. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 11 the question. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You've discussed the Western 14 Journalism Center with Mrs. Clinton? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. I 17 don't remember doing that. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Who at The White House told you to 20 focus in on Chris Ruddy? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: No one. I'm on his 304 1 mailing list. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Have you ever discussed Larry 4 Klayman with Mrs. Clinton? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: No. No. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Judicial Watch? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: When you first filed 11 your lawsuit, I may have observed about the 12 fact of the lawsuit, but I don't remember 13 ever having any substantive discussion with 14 her beyond that, about Judicial Watch. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What did you say to her? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q Did she raise it, or did you? 19 A I don't remember. It would have 20 been very much in passing. 21 Q What did Mrs. Clinton say about the 22 lawsuit? 305 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q She expressed her concern? 3 A I don't remember her expressing 4 concern. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did she tell you that she was named 8 as a defendant? 9 A I think I may have known that. I 10 may have even know that before she did. 11 Q Have you ever discussed with her 12 providing any kind of sworn proof that she 13 shouldn't be a defendant? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q Do you know of anyone who has? 16 A Discussed with her any kind of 17 sworn proof that she shouldn't be a 18 defendant? No. I'm generally aware that 19 there have been efforts made to get her 20 dismissed from the litigation, but I don't 21 even know what the status of those efforts 22 is. 306 1 Q Did you have anything to do with 2 the preparation of a document called the 3 Conspiracy Stream of Commerce? 4 A I'm familiar with the document. I 5 had nothing to do with its preparation. 6 Q How are you familiar with it? 7 A The document was assembled from 8 public reports by members of my staff. 9 Q Did you ask them to assemble it? 10 A No, I did not. 11 Q Whose idea was it? 12 A Well, let me clarify. I believe we 13 discussed developing press clips that would 14 substantiate this notion of a conspiracy 15 stream of commerce, as this compilation later 16 came to be called. The compilation included 17 some work product that members of my staff 18 had prepared that I had not authorized, but 19 the compilation of the material itself, I 20 believe, I did authorize. 21 Q Who did you authorize to do that? 22 A Mark Fabianni and Chris ----. 307 1 Q What instructions did you give 2 them, specifically? 3 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 4 form and the relevance of all of these 5 questions. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q What was the purpose of compiling 9 this? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 11 and the relevance. 12 THE WITNESS: We had observed, over 13 a period of time, the -- how various 14 stories -- what I regarded as an outlandish 15 nature would begin in the London tabloids and 16 then make their way across the ocean to some 17 of the New York tabloids, maybe, or The 18 Washington Times and would eventually get 19 picked up by either Republicans in Congress, 20 who would give them some validity, and then 21 they would be reported on by the mainstream 22 press. But there seemed to be a stream of 308 1 these conspiracy theories, you know, that 2 would be -- that would often start in these 3 tabloids and find their way eventually into 4 the mainstream press, so there was a way of 5 giving them some credibility so that they 6 could be reported on. It was a phenomenon 7 that we had observed over the, you know, 8 months and years that we had been working on 9 these issues and had actually documented it 10 to some extent, by looking, you know, at the 11 tabloids and looking at the date and seeing 12 when the issue then made it to The Washington 13 Times, and then you see when Congressman 14 Burton decides to hype the issue, and then 15 you see The Washington Post reporting on 16 Congressman Burton's hype, and all of a 17 sudden, you've got the mainstream press 18 taking an allegation seriously that 19 started -- sort of spun out of fairy dust 20 across the sea. So that was what this 21 compilation was, was to show how that 22 phenomenon had actually developed and had 309 1 been documented with these various stories. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So in compiling this Center Stream 4 of Commerce document, you had a file on the 5 Western Journalism Center? 6 MR. GURNEY: Objection to form and 7 relevancy. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You had a file with all these 10 materials, and then it was put into this 11 Conspiracy Stream of Commerce? 12 MR. GURNEY: Objection to form and 13 relevance. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know what 15 files various things were in. Is your 16 question, did I have files on the Western -- 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You compiled materials on the 19 Western Journalism Center, and you put them 20 in a file, and you had your staff make this 21 Conspiracy Stream of Commerce book, correct? 22 MR. GURNEY: Objection to form and 310 1 relevance. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the 4 Western Journalism has to do with all of 5 this. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 A That's my response. I don't -- you 9 say I put them in a file called Western 10 Journalism Center. Western Journalism Center 11 was just one little nugget in this whole -- 12 Q Right. Did you have a file for 13 materials about Western Journalism Center? 14 MR. GURNEY: Objection to form and 15 relevance. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can respond. 18 A I think I may have. I'm not sure. 19 Q You put materials in there about 20 the Western Journalism Center? 21 MR. GURNEY: Same objections. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 311 1 Q You can respond. 2 A I think I put the newsletters that 3 they sent me in that file. 4 Q You put other materials about the 5 Western Journalism Center in that file? 6 MR. GURNEY: Same objections. 7 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I 8 don't think so. I think it was limited to 9 the newsletters. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to show you 11 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 12 the next exhibit. 13 (Sherburne Deposition Exhibit 14 No. 7 was marked for 15 identification.) 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Ms. Sherburne, this is a copy of 18 the Conspiracy Stream of Commerce. 19 A I don't recognize this cover page. 20 Q I'm going to ask Mr. Fitton to turn 21 to material, which is biography of Joseph 22 Farah in this document. It will speed this 312 1 along by him helping you, if that's all 2 right. He won't bite or anything. 3 A I bite back. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Is this being marked 5 as an exhibit, Mr. Klayman? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, it's 7. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Farah was the head of the Western 9 Journalism Center at the time, correct? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection. Same as 11 before, form and relevance. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Please respond. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: You can have a 15 continuing objection. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll join the 17 objection to form and relevance. 18 MR. GURNEY: Twenty questions about 19 the Western Journalism Center or the Stream 20 of Commerce -- 21 THE WITNESS: Can I just say that I 22 don't recognize this document as the 313 1 Conspiracy Stream of Commerce that I was 2 talking to. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Let me just ask you this question. 5 Look at the biographical material that Fitton 6 just turned your attention to. 7 A This is not -- 8 Q I'm just asking about that. 9 A This is not the document, okay? So 10 you want me to look at? 11 Q You did have biographical material 12 that you gathered on Joseph Farah prior to 13 comparing this Conspiracy Stream of Commerce? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form, 15 relevancy and characterization. 16 MR. GURNEY: Our continuing 17 objection applies to this. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Understood, it's 19 right across the board. 20 MR. GURNEY: Thank you. 21 THE WITNESS: What Conspiracy 22 Stream of Commerce? This document, that I've 314 1 never seen? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q The one that you prepared, but you 4 did have biographical data on Farah that you 5 used in that Conspiracy Stream of Commerce, 6 correct? 7 A I don't remember. 8 Q If you did have biographical data 9 on Farah, it was kept in this file that you 10 kept on the Western Journalism Center? 11 A Oh, man, I don't remember. I don't 12 remember if I had biographical data on Farah. 13 I remember I used to get -- in fact, I think 14 I still do get -- if they still send them, I 15 get newsletters from the Western Journalism 16 Center, and I used to just stick them in my 17 file. That's what I remember is in the file. 18 There may have been other material, but I 19 don't remember. 20 Q You got these newsletters at The 21 White House? 22 A I think I got them at my law firm. 315 1 Q At your law firm? 2 A When -- 3 Q You, Jane Sherburne? 4 A I think it was actually now -- I'm 5 going to tell you what it is, and you'll take 6 me off their mailing list. 7 Q Do you want to confess that you're 8 a closet conservative? 9 A I don't think there's any question. 10 MR. GURNEY: She wants to give you 11 a contribution. 12 THE WITNESS: I want a watch. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I will give you a 14 watch. Give it to your kid. Give it to your 15 family. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What was 17 the -- oh, Jame, J-a-m-e, and Sherburne 18 without an E, I think, is the way it comes to 19 me, and my law firm recognizes that as me, 20 and while I was in The White House, I 21 continued to get mail at the law firm, and 22 periodically, you know, it would stack up for 316 1 a few months, and they'd ship it over. So I 2 think that's how I received it. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q It was from that mail that you 5 gathered information on Farah and Western 6 Journalism Center? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: Boy, I just -- I 9 don't remember. I don't remember gathering 10 information on Farah. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You asked your staff to do it? 13 A No, I don't remember doing that 14 either. 15 Q But you know that Fabianni and 16 company did gather information on Farah and 17 Western Journalism Center and prepare this 18 Conspiracy Stream of Commerce? 19 A This Conspiracy Stream of Commerce, 20 I don't take any ownership of. 21 Q I'm not asking you about Exhibit 7. 22 The one that your office prepared. 317 1 A I don't -- the material that they 2 actually prepared, I don't see. I was 3 concerned that there was some work product 4 that they had performed in connection with 5 this that I hadn't authorized and -- 6 Q Who's they? 7 A Mark and Chris. This actually -- I 8 don't know where it came from. I don't know 9 what it is. 10 Q I can help you with that. That's a 11 reprint, prepared by the Western Journalism 12 Center itself. 13 A Oh, okay. There you have it. 14 Q I'm talking about the one that your 15 office prepared. Was there biographical data 16 about Farah in that report? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q The Conspiracy Stream of Commerce, 19 when it was prepared, was released to the 20 media? 21 A I believe it was selectively 22 released. 318 1 Q Who was it sent to? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q Did you ever discuss with anyone at 4 The White House that the Western Journalism 5 Center was being audited by the Internal 6 Revenue Service? 7 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form 8 and relevance. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 10 THE WITNESS: Should we switch 11 captions? No. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Are you aware that the Western 14 Journalism Center was being audited by the 15 Internal Revenue Service? 16 A No -- wait a minute. Am I now 17 aware that they were being audited? 18 Q Yeah. 19 A Since you filed your lawsuit 20 against the Western Journalism Center, and my 21 name's mentioned in that lawsuit, yes, I 22 became aware of it as a result of that. 319 1 Q Have you ever asked -- 2 A You didn't file it against, on 3 behalf of the Western Journalism Center. 4 Q You're aware that the commissioner 5 of the IRS when that audit occurred was 6 Margaret Milnor Richardson? 7 A I don't know. I believe she's a 8 defendant in your lawsuit. 9 Q You're aware that Margaret Milnor 10 Richardson is a close friend of Hillary 11 Clinton? 12 A No, I have no idea. 13 Q Did you ever discuss her with 14 Hillary Clinton? 15 A No. 16 Q Based on your experience at The 17 White House, do you know of any purpose in 18 hiring an employee at The White House, any 19 proper purpose, for that employee to look 20 into the FBI background of nonholdover 21 employees and nonpolitical appointees? 22 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 320 1 form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. Let me see if I 4 can rephrase it. Based on your experience in 5 working at The White House, would it be 6 proper to hire anyone at The White House, to 7 obtain FBI background material on nonholdover 8 employees and nonpolitical appointees of the 9 Clinton Administration? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, sitting here 12 now, I can't imagine a circumstance where it 13 would be proper to hire somebody to 14 improperly obtain FBI files. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q If anyone improperly obtained FBI 17 files in the course of their employment, even 18 if they weren't hired for that purpose, that 19 wouldn't be within the scope of their 20 employment either; would it? 21 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 22 form of the question. 321 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm having trouble 3 with your characterization of improper. I 4 always regard what happened as -- 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Let's break it down. 7 A I always regarded what happened as 8 a mistake. 9 Q Let's break it down a little. If a 10 White House employee, who wasn't specifically 11 hired to obtain FBI background material on 12 nonholdover employees and nonpolitical 13 appointees, does so in the course of his 14 employment at The White House, that would not 15 be within the scope of their employment 16 either at The White House; would it? 17 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I'd have to know what 19 the individual understood he'd been 20 instructed to do. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Did you ever ask Mrs. Clinton 322 1 specifically whether she instructed 2 Livingstone, Marceca, or Nussbaum to get the 3 FBI files or material of nonholdover 4 employees and nonpolitical appointees while 5 they were working at The White House? Ever 6 ask her that specific question? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know of anyone who did? 9 A No. 10 Q Now going back to the original 11 question, it would not be within the scope of 12 an employee's job at The White House to 13 obtain FBI material of nonholdover employees 14 and nonpolitical appointees, correct? 15 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 16 form. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q It couldn't, per se, be within the 19 scope of employee, because that wouldn't be 20 proper, correct? 21 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 22 form. 323 1 THE WITNESS: I would have to be 2 presented with a specific circumstance in 3 order to answer that question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Was it within the scope of 6 Mr. Livingstone's employment to obtain FBI 7 background material on nonholdover employees 8 and nonpolitical appointees of the Clinton 9 Administration? 10 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 11 form. It calls for a legal conclusion. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I never understood that 15 Mr. Livingstone thought that's what he was 16 doing, so what he regarded as within the 17 scope of his job, even by his own description 18 of his job, I don't think is -- I don't think 19 that that was within the scope of his -- 20 Q I didn't ask you what he thought. 21 I asked you, now that it's an established 22 fact, that Livingstone, Marceca, Kennedy, 324 1 Nussbaum had FBI materials of nonholdover 2 employees and nonpolitical appointees in The 3 White House, was that within the scope of 4 their employment? 5 MR. GURNEY: Same objections. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, and object 7 to form and characterization. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A Yeah, I didn't understand that 11 those were established facts. 12 Q Well, answer the question as if 13 they were. 14 THE WITNESS: You'll have to read 15 it back then, please. 16 (The reporter read the record as 17 requested.) 18 MR. GURNEY: Objection to form and 19 calls for a legal conclusion. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A I don't know that I can actually, 325 1 you know, in the course of any of us doing 2 our work, we occasionally make mistakes that 3 we -- when we believe we're performing 4 official duties, and are the mistakes part of 5 what we're supposed to be doing? Of course 6 not. Are they mistakes that are made in the 7 course of performing official duties? Yes, 8 they are. Is that part of an official 9 function? Perhaps it is. I don't know how 10 that actually parses in the end. Did I ever 11 learn anything to suggest that anyone 12 intentionally did this? No, I didn't. So if 13 it was a mistake that someone made in the 14 course of performing what they thought was 15 their official duty, I guess I'm not so sure 16 that that would be outside the scope of their 17 employment. 18 Q Did you, or anyone else that you 19 know of, ever ask Marceca whether he 20 intentionally obtained those FBI materials? 21 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Ask Mr. Marceca? 326 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Yes. 3 A I think he was asked that by 4 Chairman Clinger. 5 Q I asked, did you ever ask him. 6 A I thought you said did I or anyone 7 else? 8 Q Or anyone at The White House. 9 A Or anyone at The White House, ask 10 Mr. Marceca directly? Not that I'm aware of. 11 Q Same question with regard to Bernie 12 Nussbaum. 13 A Whether Bernie ever intentionally 14 requested files of nonholdovers? 15 Q You or anyone else at The White 16 House ever ask him those questions? 17 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 19 asking that question of Bernie directly. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Same question with regard to 22 Livingstone. 327 1 MR. GURNEY: Same objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I believe I may have 3 asked Craig that question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q But you're not sure? 6 A I'm not sure. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 8 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as the 9 next exhibit. Didn't want you to think we'd 10 forgotten about Mr. Woodward's book, which we 11 bought two copies. 12 (Sherburne Deposition Exhibit 13 No. 8 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you, Ms. Sherburne, know that 17 Woodward's book was going to be published 18 last Tuesday? 19 A I believe he told me that the 20 preceding week. 21 Q I'm looking at Chapter 25. 22 A Do you have a page number? 328 1 Q Page number 322. Let me turn your 2 attention, actually, to 323. Do you see on 3 this page, Woodward is recounting that there 4 "The president called Ickes, Kendall, 5 Panetta, and Maggie Williams." Do you see 6 that down at the bottom of the page? 7 A Yes. 8 Q During this period of time related 9 to the Travel Office firings, there were a 10 series of meetings in The White House 11 attended by you, Harold Ickes, David Kendall, 12 Panetta, Maggie Williams, George 13 Stephanopoulos, et cetera? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what 16 you're asking. This is May -- at least from 17 the preceding page, it looks like he's 18 writing about something he believes happened 19 in May 1996, and there was no Travel 20 Office -- there was no -- well, that was when 21 Clinger was investigating investigations, and 22 so you're asking whether I met with any of 329 1 these people during that time period? 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Yes. 4 A I met regularly with each of those 5 people throughout the time I was in The White 6 House. It would have been unusual if there 7 was a month that went by that I didn't. 8 Q All right. When the FBI files 9 issue arose, you did have discussions where 10 Harold Ickes was privy, correct? 11 A About the FBI files matter? 12 Q Yes. 13 A Yes. 14 Q You had several discussions with 15 him, correct? 16 A I don't remember how many 17 discussions I had with him. I reported to 18 him, so I did talk to him about it. 19 Q What did you tell him about it? 20 A The only -- 21 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm sorry. I didn't 22 mean to interrupt you. I'd like to get some 330 1 more stipulation that this isn't any kind of 2 waiver of privilege. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: For purposes of this 4 deposition, it's not. 5 THE WITNESS: The only conversation 6 that I have a clear recollection of is one 7 that occurred on June -- I don't know when it 8 was -- 6th maybe, when Craig Livingstone had 9 brought me the list of -- or the index of the 10 files that had been sent off to Records 11 Management, and when he brought that to me, I 12 could tell from the list that there were 13 individuals identified on the list that 14 surprised me, startled me, that we would have 15 their FBI files. So at that point or shortly 16 after that, I probably talked to Craig about 17 it a little bit. I went and reported to 18 Harold that it appeared that we had obtained 19 files of Republicans from the Bush 20 Administration from the FBI, and that we 21 still had them in our custody, and so I 22 remember going to Harold's office and telling 331 1 him that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q What did he say? 4 A I don't remember exactly what he 5 said. 6 Q You had more than one conversation 7 with Mr. Ickes about the FBI files matter? 8 A I probably did, yes. 9 Q Because you reported directly to 10 Mr. Ickes, correct? 11 A That's right. 12 Q Mr. Ickes was your superior, 13 correct, or supervisor, in effect? 14 A Yes. At some point during the FBI 15 files matter, Evelyn Lieberman, who was also 16 deputy chief of staff, became involved, and I 17 know I dealt with her to some extent on this 18 issue too. I can't quite remember how it all 19 shook out. 20 Q When the FBI files issue broke, 21 Mr. Ickes assigned you to do certain things? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 332 1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember him 2 doing that, no. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Who, if anyone, assigned you to do 5 certain things with regard to the FBI files 6 matter? 7 A I don't remember anyone assigning 8 me to do anything. 9 Q What did you then take it upon 10 yourself to do with regard to FBI files? 11 A After learning that the -- after 12 learning that we may have these files in 13 custody of The White House? 14 Q (Nodding) 15 A I called Howard Shapiro and asked 16 him to send over somebody to come and get 17 them. I called Sally Paxton, who worked for 18 me, and asked her if she would work with 19 Records Management to retrieve the boxes that 20 were identified on these indexes that Craig 21 had provided, and I told her that I would 22 meet her over in Records Management as soon 333 1 as I could. We went over to -- I think I was 2 in my office for a little while, trying to 3 work out the logistics of getting these 4 agents in to pick up the files, and there was 5 some issue with what they do with their guns 6 at the security desk, you know, at the gate, 7 and all that sort of thing. So I worked 8 through all that and got them in there, met 9 them, and I think I -- I'm not sure. I may 10 have met them. At any rate, somehow Tom 11 Kelly and a fellow named Kitchen, I think, 12 were the only two that came over, met them in 13 the Office of Records Management in Terry 14 Good's office, I believe, where Sally was 15 with Terry and the boxes that they had, by 16 then, retrieved from the fifth floor of the 17 Old Executive Office Building. 18 Then in the presence of Tom and -- 19 Tom Kelly and Kitchen, they opened the boxes 20 and looked through them. Sally was at a 21 nearby table with the index, and we sort of 22 did an inventory. We didn't -- nobody 334 1 handled the files, or took them out and 2 looked at them, you know, one by one. It was 3 just either Kelly or Kitchen going through, 4 reading off the file names, and Sally 5 checking off whether or not they were on the 6 list, so we could be sure we knew what was in 7 there. I think we had brought down four 8 boxes from records management; although, I'm 9 not sure, and I think we concluded that one 10 of them -- or maybe it was three -- I think 11 it was four boxes. We concluded that one had 12 nothing to do with anything, and then there 13 was another one that just had some junk in it 14 that looked like it might be relevant. We 15 didn't really want to handle it a lot, so we 16 agreed with Tom and Kitchen that they would 17 just take it, and if it was not related to 18 any of this -- any of these FBI files, if 19 they'd send it back. 20 Then there were two boxes of files 21 that actually had the FBI background files in 22 them with a name on each file, and then 335 1 behind one of the boxes was some other 2 material that again, we agreed, they would 3 take, and if it was not of any significance 4 to the files themselves, that they would send 5 it back. 6 So we did that, and then I worked 7 with Terry Good to craft some kind of a -- I 8 think we ended up calling it a receipt, but 9 something that would document that -- you 10 know, how the files had been handled, and 11 that they were going back to the FBI with 12 these folks. So then they took off with the 13 boxes, and at that point, then we were still 14 trying to determine why on earth we had these 15 files. I don't remember if it was that day 16 or the next day. 17 I remember continuing to work with 18 Craig to some extent, to try and understand 19 what had happened. I became more 20 knowledgeable about this so-called update 21 project, began obtaining a little more 22 information on who this detailee was, you 336 1 know, learned that it was Anthony Marceca 2 and, you know -- as I recall during that time 3 period, I was keeping people informed about 4 what I was learning, what we were doing, and 5 how this was being handled. 6 Because, of course, it was an 7 issue, as you pointed out earlier, was of 8 significant concern publicly and, certainly, 9 of concern to The White House, so people 10 wanted to know what we were learning, and how 11 we were handling things. 12 Q Among the people that you kept 13 advised were Harold Ickes? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You kept him advised of all the 16 facts you've just now told me? 17 A I don't remember precisely. I 18 would have -- I'm sure I would have told him 19 that we no longer have the files. At least, 20 that problem is -- you know, that's how that 21 problem has been handled. I don't remember 22 what I would have told him, how much detail I 337 1 would have gone into. I'm sure he just 2 wanted to know, are they out of here? My 3 answer, after they were, would have been yes. 4 Q You kept George Stephanopoulos 5 apprised? 6 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 7 THE WITNESS: I do remember that 8 during this time period, in the initial days, 9 from the time Clinger had his press 10 conference or issued his press statement, 11 whatever he did, about the Billy Dale file, 12 that I did confer with George periodically 13 and keep him informed of what was -- what we 14 knew. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You kept him informed of what you 17 testified to just now, correct? 18 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember 20 precisely what I would have told him. I 21 didn't report to George, you know, so it 22 would have been less formal than what I made 338 1 sure Harold understood. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q At that time, Stephanopoulos was in 4 charge of communicating these issues to the 5 President, correct? He was special counsel 6 to the President? 7 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand 10 that to be his -- 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q What in the ordinary course was it 13 about Stephanopoulos's job that meant you 14 should keep him informed during this period? 15 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 16 THE WITNESS: This whole issue hit 17 us by surprise. We didn't understand it, and 18 there was a lot of information out there in 19 the public. Clinger seemed to know more 20 about it than we did, and until we had it 21 under control, George was very concerned 22 about what we knew, how we were handling it, 339 1 what we were saying publicly, how harmful was 2 it. Was it -- you know, what had really 3 happened? So typically, the group that I 4 worked with and that I managed would deal 5 with these issues without the involvement of 6 people like George, but when there was an 7 issue like this that was sort of sweeping 8 over The White House without a lot of ability 9 at that time to provide answers, George 10 became involved, and so I am sure that I kept 11 George informed about what we were learning, 12 because of his interest and because of the 13 significance to the issue to The White House 14 at that time. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q What was it about George 17 Stephanopoulos's position that meant that you 18 should keep him involved and informed at that 19 time? 20 A I understood that George was -- 21 George was talking to the press about this 22 issue, so he was trying to answer questions 340 1 to the press, and, of course, we didn't want 2 anyone giving wrong information to the press, 3 so it was important if he was going to be 4 talking to people that he have as complete 5 and accurate an understanding of the facts as 6 possible. So that probably would have 7 been -- and I also thought George was superb 8 at anticipating what questions were likely to 9 be, and, you know, how something might 10 develop, and was a useful person to talk to 11 about, you know, where do you think we were 12 going to get -- where do you think this is 13 going to move? What are the questions that 14 are going to be asked? What do we need to be 15 prepared for? George had a very good sense 16 of those sorts of things, so I probably would 17 have conferred with him on that as well. 18 Q George is a very bright guy, in 19 your opinion? 20 A Do I think George is a bright guy? 21 Q Yeah. 22 A I think George is a very bright 341 1 guy. 2 Q He has very good recall with facts? 3 MR. GURNEY: Objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Based on your experience. 6 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 7 THE WITNESS: Based on my 8 experience, George has a terrible memory. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You're being facetious? 11 A I am not being facetious. 12 Q Did you make him write things down 13 when you met with them? 14 A No, I didn't make anyone write 15 things down. I thought it was foolish to 16 write things down. 17 Q Did you see him write things down? 18 A No. 19 Q Then why you did bother talking 20 with George, if he couldn't remember 21 anything? 22 A That's why I talked to him so many 342 1 times, Larry. No. Is that a serious 2 question? 3 Q Yes, it is. 4 A Why did I bother talking to George, 5 if he couldn't remember anything? 6 Q Yes. 7 A George -- 8 MR. GURNEY: Well, objection as to 9 the form. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know why I 11 did. Why did I talk to George? That George. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Was there a policy at The White 14 House of hiring people with bad memories when 15 you were there? 16 A Not that I'm aware of. 17 Q Is that a criteria, that you have 18 to have a bad memory if you work for the 19 Clinton White House? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: Not that I'm aware 22 of. 343 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You did meet with George and tell 3 him these things, correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q In fact, on page 327, middle of the 6 page it says, "The FBI agents came, put on 7 rubber gloves and did an inventory of the 8 records. The records personnel signed 9 affidavits and the boxes were carried back to 10 the FBI. The next morning, Panetta, 11 Stephanopoulos Ickes and Sherburne went to 12 inform the President." 13 Do you remember that? 14 A Well, I remember -- I think I just 15 described that FBI agents came -- 16 Q What I'm interested in is, "The 17 next morning Panetta, Ickes, Stephanopoulos, 18 and Sherburne went to inform the President"? 19 A I don't remember when we informed 20 the President. 21 Q But you do remember going with 22 Stephanopoulos and Ickes, correct, and 344 1 Panetta? 2 A I remember that there were -- that 3 there were more people than -- it was more 4 than me. I didn't know by myself, and I 5 believe Harold was there, and I don't 6 remember for sure. I believe George was 7 there, and I don't remember who else may have 8 been there. 9 Q This passage here is something that 10 you talked to Bob Woodward about, correct? 11 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 12 form of the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I talked to Bob 14 Woodward about this general topic of FBI 15 files, and I don't remember talking to him 16 about going to inform the President; 17 although, I may have. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Then it says, "'What!' Clinton 20 said. He disparaged the terrible ineptitude 21 of the first year and a half of his 22 administration." Do you remember Clinton 345 1 saying that during this meeting between you 2 Ickes, Panetta, and Stephanopoulos? 3 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 4 term that. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: The same request for 6 a stipulation. Whether or not she talked to 7 Woodward is irrelevant to our claim of 8 privilege, but we'll let her answer the 9 question, with the stipulation it doesn't 10 subject us to any attorney-client waiver. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. 12 THE WITNESS: Are you asking what? 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Do you remember Clinton saying, 15 what? 16 A Then disparaging the terrible 17 ineptitude? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No, I don't. 20 Q This part of Woodward's book didn't 21 come from you? 22 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 346 1 of the question. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know how 3 Woodward sourced his book. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Do you ever remember Clinton 6 disparaging the ineptitude of his 7 administration in the first year and a half, 8 in any context? 9 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 10 form of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Based on your experience with 14 President Clinton, it's not his nature to 15 disparage his own administration; is it? 16 MR. GURNEY: Objection; as to the 17 form of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: I can't answer 19 questions about the President's nature. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did Woodward get this from Panetta 22 or Stephanopoulos? 347 1 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 2 form of the question. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you have any knowledge as to 5 that? 6 A I have no idea. 7 Q Ickes? 8 MR. GURNEY: Same objection. 9 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You left The White House in 1996, 12 correct? 13 A The beginning of '97, January 10th 14 or something like that. 15 Q Beginning of '97? 16 A Yeah, January of '97. 17 Q Did you ever meet Ron Brown when 18 you were at The White House? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 20 MR. GURNEY: Join. 21 THE WITNESS: I believe I did meet 22 Ron Brown, was just introduced to him. 348 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Did you ever sit in on meetings 3 between Ron Brown and Leon Panetta and John 4 Podesta? 5 A No, not that I recall. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: We have about eight 7 minutes left on our clock. I don't know what 8 you have, if you want to compare. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Look at the bottom of the page. It 11 says, "The only way to stop his anger was to 12 blunt. 'If I had an answer, Mr. President, 13 I'd give it to you, but I can't make it up.' 14 Is that a direct quote of something you said 15 to the President during that meeting? 16 A I don't remember exactly what I 17 said to the President during that meeting. I 18 do remember being frustrated that I couldn't 19 explain what all this was about. 20 Q If we were to get Woodward's tapes, 21 can you say categorically that you didn't say 22 that to Mr. Woodward, and that's on the tape? 349 1 MR. GURNEY: Objection to the form 2 of the question, and asked and answered. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can't say categorically you 5 didn't say that to Woodward; can you? 6 MR. GURNEY: Same objections. 7 THE WITNESS: I think, as I said, I 8 discussed this general topic with 9 Mr. Woodward, but I don't remember the 10 specifics of this -- the specifics of telling 11 him this. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You may have said this to Woodward? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q Are you saying that this would be 16 so wrong, you could have never said this to 17 Woodward, "I'd give it to you, but I can't 18 make it up"? 19 A I thought what I just told you was 20 that I wished -- I remember being at that 21 meeting and wishing that I did have an 22 explanation. 350 1 Q My question's simple, 2 Ms. Sherburne. Can you tell me, based on 3 everything you know, you would have never 4 given this quote to Woodward as I just read 5 it to you? 6 A What I've told you is that I do 7 remember talking about this topic with 8 Mr. Woodward. Do I remember this precisely? 9 No, I do not. 10 Q You may have said this? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Do you have any facts that would 13 lead you to believe this statement is so 14 wrong, you could have never said it to 15 Woodward? 16 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 17 form of the question. 18 THE WITNESS: Now you're asking -- 19 you're not asking me any more if I told this 20 to Woodward, but if this is essentially what 21 I told the President? 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 351 1 Q No. Let me go on. Next paragraph, 2 "They discussed with the President's public 3 response might be. Because of the uproar, he 4 was going to have to say something. 5 Stephanopoulos had already sought to frame it 6 as a bureaucratic blunder. The President was 7 scornful of that approach." You do remember 8 Stephanopoulos seeking to frame it as a 9 bureaucratic blunder, and the President being 10 scornful of that approach? 11 MR. GURNEY: Objection, compound 12 question. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You remember a discussion to that 15 effect with the President; do you not? 16 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to form. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't remember it 18 occurring quite the way it's described here. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q But what's said is generally 21 correct? 22 A I'm not sure what you mean by 352 1 generally. It's not -- I don't remember 2 there being sides taken on how something 3 should be handled. I remember there being a 4 discussion. I don't remember -- I don't 5 remember scorn. I don't remember -- you 6 know, I don't remember that sort of thing. 7 Q But you do -- 8 A But I do remember there was a 9 discussion about what it was, not knowing 10 what had happened, believing that it looked 11 like it was a bureaucratic blunder, but not 12 having enough facts to confirm that for 13 certain, and what, if that was wrong. I 14 remember that sort of being the flavor of the 15 whole conversation amongst the people who 16 were present. What was said precisely, and 17 whether this actual dialogue is correct, I 18 couldn't tell you. 19 Q The President expressed skepticism 20 that explaining it as a bureaucratic blunder 21 made sense? 22 A I don't remember -- I don't 353 1 remember that. 2 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 3 form of the question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can't refute that this was 6 said? 7 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 8 form. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q You can't tell me definitively that 11 wasn't said? 12 A That, what wasn't said? 13 Q What's said here. "Stephanopoulos 14 had already sought to frame it as a 15 bureaucratic blunder." 16 MR. GURNEY: Objection as to the 17 form of that question. 18 THE WITNESS: I have the sense that 19 this is -- this was a situation that was 20 developing over a period of days. We had 21 limited information in the beginning, and, 22 you know, I think there were -- there 354 1 probably were more than one -- there was more 2 than one conversation, and I have the sense 3 that considerations that were expressed and 4 deliberated over a two or three-day period 5 have all been sort of telescoped into this 6 one conversation that Woodward seems to place 7 the morning -- the next morning, and I 8 just -- I can't tell you that that's 9 accurate, and I can't quite remember how it 10 all sorted out. But my sense is, that 11 there's more, sort of, put on this 12 conversation, than actually literally 13 occurred at that time. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q But you're not refuting that 16 Stephanopoulos tried to frame it as a 17 bureaucratic blunder? 18 A I know that we discussed whether we 19 could describe it that way. 20 Q Stephanopoulos played a role in 21 that discussion? 22 A He participated -- 355 1 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 2 form of the question. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A He participated in that discussion. 6 Q It was his idea? 7 A You know, I actually think it was 8 my idea. 9 Q The President didn't think that 10 approach was going to fly? 11 A I don't remember that. I 12 remember -- I think that was a separate 13 conversation. That's why I think this is -- 14 you're going to run into problems if you rely 15 on Woodward here, because I think he's tried 16 to describe an event by collapsing a lot of 17 conversations into one. 18 Q So you're not refuting -- 19 A So this is not a transcript. It's 20 not -- you know, it's not -- you know, it 21 might provide a gist of something, but it's 22 not word for word the way it happened. 356 1 Q You're not disputing the substance 2 of it, just whether it occurred all at once 3 or over time? 4 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 5 substance of what? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What I just read to you. 8 MR. GURNEY: What's that? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q The passage, "Stephanopoulos had 11 already sought to frame it as a bureaucratic 12 blunder. The president was scornful of that 13 approach." You're not disputing that it 14 didn't occurred? 15 A I don't remember the President 16 being scornful. I just don't remember that 17 that's how the conversation played out. I 18 know that, I think, it was George who said to 19 a reporter that this looked like a 20 bureaucratic blunder, a mistake or something. 21 It's probably in an AP story on June 5th or 22 something, or June 6th. So there was a 357 1 question of, you know, we got to do better 2 than that. That's not a sufficient 3 explanation, and, you know, but what is the 4 explanation? There was a lot of frustration, 5 certainly on my part, that I didn't know it. 6 You know, I wanted to have the answers. That 7 was my job, you know, and I didn't. 8 I got caught here without knowing 9 what the answers were, and everybody needed 10 the answers. So it was an enormously 11 frustrating time. These conversations were 12 frustrating, and just assuming that people 13 would realize, as it says here, that this was 14 just too amazing to think that anyone could 15 possibly have done it intentionally. 16 That was something I thought, when 17 Craig first showed me that thing, I thought, 18 well, who would ever believe we did this on 19 purpose? I, you know, hadn't fully 20 appreciated you, Larry, but at that point, 21 you know, after we tried that, it was clear 22 that we needed to find a more fulsome 358 1 responsive, substantive response to this. 2 You know, as well as deal with what were the 3 quite legitimate concerns of people who 4 wanted to know what the heck The White House 5 was doing with their FBI files. 6 Q Did you ever show documents to 7 George Stephanopoulos with regard to 8 inquiries that you had made or others had 9 made about how this had occurred, this FBI 10 file matter? 11 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 12 form. 13 THE WITNESS: I doubt it. George 14 was not a documents kind of guy. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did you show them to Ickes? 17 MR. GURNEY: Same objection. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Did you ever discuss with Ickes or 21 Stephanopoulos the fact that you had spoken 22 to Woodward about this incident, and did they 359 1 ever discuss it with you that they had spoken 2 to Woodward? 3 MR. GURNEY: Objection, as to the 4 form. 5 THE WITNESS: About this incident, 6 being the FBI files matter? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Yes. 9 A No. 10 Q Do you know whether Stephanopoulos 11 talked to Woodward about this matter? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Ickes? 14 A I don't know. On the next 15 page, 328, it says, "Sherburne informed 16 Hillary about the discovery of the FBI files. 17 'You know,', the first lady said, 'before 18 this is over I'm going to be responsible for 19 this too. 'Oh, come on, you're not anywhere 20 near this'. Just wait,' Hillary said, 21 'they'll find a way.'" Is that an accurate 22 quotation of what went on between you and 360 1 Mrs. Clinton? 2 MR. GURNEY: Excuse me. May I ask 3 how much time is left? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: We have two minutes. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: On our count you have 6 no time left, but we'll give you two minutes 7 to wrap it up. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Is that an accurate quotation of 10 what went on between you and Mrs. Clinton? 11 A I would -- I would say that this 12 is -- describes the gist of the conversation. 13 I wouldn't say that these were the precise 14 words that she said or that I said. 15 Q You provided this information to 16 Woodward? 17 A I don't remember if I did or not. 18 I know that I have described that 19 conversation to others on occasions and -- 20 Q Who are the others? 21 A Would have been my staff, and I 22 don't remember -- I remember being struck by 361 1 the conversation, because at that particular 2 point in time, there was no conceivable way 3 that she could have been linked to this 4 episode that I could see, and so when she 5 made this observation, I just thought, you 6 know, that's crazy. Then sure enough, 7 somebody found a way, eventually. So I do 8 remember this being the gist of it -- of the 9 conversation, and I know that I have repeated 10 this conversation to others. Whether I told 11 Woodward, I don't remember for sure. 12 Q At that time, you had very limited 13 information? 14 MR. GURNEY: Are we out of time 15 now? 16 MS. BENITEZ: I have two minutes 17 past. 18 MR. GURNEY: All right. This is 19 done. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Just let the record 21 reflect. I hope we can get agreement of 22 counsel. We will move the court, if 362 1 necessary, to reconvene the deposition. This 2 is a very substantive witness. We have not 3 finished. We have a lot more questions to 4 ask. I hope we can come to an agreement. If 5 we can't, we'll move the court. 6 MR. GURNEY: We object to all that. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: We also object. 8 You've used your time and had a full 9 opportunity to examine this witness. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the court 11 decide that, Ms. Shapiro. 12 (Whereupon, at 5:39 p.m., the 13 deposition of JANE C. SHERBURNE 14 was adjourned.) 15 * * * * * 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ??