251 1 says, "The associated press reported last 2 week that Secret Service entry logs showed 3 Lenzner himself visiting the White House a 4 half dozen times in recent years, including a 5 1996 meeting with ex-deputy chief of staff 6 Harold Ickes to discuss potential 7 investigative work." 8 You are aware that Mr. Lenzner 9 visited Ickes to discuss investigative work? 10 A No. 11 Q You never heard that before? 12 A No. 13 Q Have you ever seen him in the White 14 House other than times that he came in to see 15 his daughter? 16 A No. 17 Q In the last three months what's 18 been the frequency of your conversations with 19 James Carville? 20 A Same as always. 21 Q What's that? 22 A Several times a day, as I answered 252 1 several hours ago. 2 Q Why is it that you speak with 3 Mr. Carville several times a day? 4 A Asked and answered. 5 Q Are you calling him to get 6 information for use in your commentary on ABC 7 and other things that you're doing? 8 A I talk to him all the time about a 9 lot of things. 10 Q What are you doing for Newsweek 11 Magazine? 12 A Writing occasional articles. 13 Q Do you have a contract with 14 Newsweek? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q Negotiated by Mr. Barnett? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q Just, roughly speaking, are you on 19 some kind of retainer agreement with 20 Newsweek? 21 A It's none of your business. 22 Q If you're asserting a reporter's 253 1 privilege, it's my business? 2 A I have a contract to write articles 3 with them. 4 Q Are you consulting with 5 Mr. Carville to gather information for the 6 Newsweek articles? 7 A No. 8 Q Are you consulting with 9 Mr. Carville to gather information for your 10 ABC commentary? 11 A No. I talk to him because we're 12 friends. 13 Q Now, you've heard Mr. Carville make 14 a statement that Clinton allies were going to 15 declare war on Ken Starr, did you not? 16 A I have seen the report of that. I 17 have never actually heard him say it. 18 Q Did he tell you that he was going 19 to declare war or anybody was going to 20 declare war? 21 A No, which I answered a question 22 ago. 254 1 Q Have you asked Mr. Carville what he 2 meant by declaring war? 3 A No. 4 Q Have you asked anyone what was 5 meant by that? 6 A No. 7 Q Have you ever discussed with Paul 8 Begala a speech that he gave in Miami at the 9 Democrat Business Council? 10 A No. 11 Q Are you aware that he gave a speech 12 there? 13 A I have seen reports of it, sure. 14 Q Are you aware that he made 15 reference to looking at FBI files? 16 A I am aware that he made a joke and 17 the fact that a joke could occasion a 18 subpoena from you shows once again that 19 you're looking to harass people at the White 20 House or harass friends at the White House 21 and that you're engaging in frivolous 22 activity, not a legitimate investigation. I 255 1 mean dozens of other people have made FBI 2 file jokes in the last five, ten years, 3 including republicans. 4 Q Have you made FBI file jokes? 5 A You know, it's possible that I 6 have, yes. 7 Q Do you find it funny? 8 A If the joke is good, sure. 9 Q Are you aware that Mr. Begala 10 challenged our subpoena before the court, 11 tried to quash our subpoena? 12 A I'm not, but I would support him in 13 that. 14 Q Are you aware that the court 15 sustained our right to take Mr. Begala's 16 deposition? 17 A I guess they must have because Paul 18 was here. 19 Q Are you saying that the court acted 20 in a frivolous fashion by allowing the 21 deposition? 22 A No, I'm saying you acted -- I'm 256 1 saying you have acted in a frivolous fashion. 2 I can't speak to the court and I won't speak 3 to the court. I think your questions today 4 demonstrate you're acting. 5 Q You're saying the court should 6 never have ordered Mr. Begala's deposition? 7 Is that what you're saying? 8 A That's not what I said. That is 9 precisely the opposite. 10 Q Well, if the court ordered Begala's 11 deposition and he had an opportunity to 12 challenge it, then how is it frivolous for me 13 to take it? 14 A That's my conclusion, but you don't 15 care how I reach my conclusions though. 16 Q Effectively, you're telling the 17 judge that he acted in a frivolous fashion? 18 A No. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. You're 20 just arguing with the witness now. This is 21 pointless. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 257 1 Q Is that what you're telling the 2 judge? 3 A No. I'm saying that you are 4 frivolous and you are harassing witnesses. 5 As far as I know, the judge is an honorable 6 person. 7 Q Are you aware that you had an 8 opportunity to challenge your subpoena? 9 A I'm doing my duty pursuant to the 10 court. That doesn't change my judgment of 11 you. 12 Q Well, you never challenged your 13 subpoena, did you, in front of the court? 14 A I guess not, no. 15 Q Now, did you ever discuss the FBI 16 files matter with Mr. Carville? 17 A I may have, but I don't remember 18 it. 19 Q You don't remember anything? 20 A (Nodding) 21 Q No? 22 A I don't think I -- I mean it's very 258 1 possible that the matter was a matter of same 2 public controversy, we discussed it -- and we 3 discussed the newspapers every day as part of 4 our normal chat. But I don't have a specific 5 recollection of discussing this matter. 6 Q Have you discussed the fact that 7 Mr. Carville has been subpoenaed to testify 8 in this Judicial Watch case? 9 A Answered already. 10 Q I didn't ask you what specifically 11 you discussed. 12 A No, I answered that specific 13 question about six hours ago. 14 Q You're not going to give me any 15 more? 16 A I already answered. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Certify 18 it. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What is your understanding that 21 this civil case that you're here on today is 22 all about, the legal basis for it? 259 1 A I haven't thought about it that 2 much. You tell me. 3 Q Do you know what the causes of 4 action that my clients have pled are? 5 A No. Tell me. 6 Q Have you looked at the complaint? 7 A No. 8 Q Has anyone told you what these 9 causes of action are? 10 A No. 11 Q Has anyone told you what the 12 alleged liability is? 13 A No. 14 Q Has anyone told you what the 15 alleged damage is? 16 A No. 17 Q Yet you formed an opinion that it's 18 completely frivolous? 19 A I formed the opinion that you are 20 frivolous and I know the fact that you're 21 calling me and asking me questions about my 22 life in high school and college rather than 260 1 simply asking me questions about the FBI 2 files is demonstration -- demonstrates that 3 you're acting in a frivolous way. 4 If you ask me questions about the 5 FBI files, I will answer them just as I have 6 for the past several hours. 7 Q It is your contention that I have 8 asked you no questions about FBI files in 9 this deposition? 10 A No. To the extent that you have 11 asked me questions about FBI files, I have 12 answered them to the best of my ability. I 13 just wish we would spend more time on the FBI 14 files and less time on frivolous matters. 15 Q Mr. Stephanopoulos, have you ever 16 read the book The Dark Side of Camelot? 17 A No. 18 Q Have you ever seen it? 19 A I've seen a picture of it. 20 Q Have you read excerpts of it? 21 A No. 22 Q Have you ever read any history 261 1 books that referred to the Kennedy 2 administration? 3 A Sure. 4 Q When did you read those books? 5 A Oh, I've read books on the Kennedy 6 administration probably ever -- well, if you 7 take away we used to have a picture book in 8 my house -- photo book put out by Life 9 Magazine about the Kennedy assassination. 10 I read that when I was quite young, 11 you know, probably 6, 7 or 8 years old. But 12 I would guess that from the age of 10 or 12 I 13 consistently read books on the Kennedys. 14 Q Are you an avid reader? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q You enjoy reading about politics 17 and history? 18 A I enjoy reading about a lot of 19 different things, including politics and 20 history. 21 Q Politics is your profession, is it 22 not? 262 1 A It has been. 2 Q How old are you? 3 A I'm 37. 4 Q When were you born? 5 MR. BRAND: Do the math. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Date? 8 A February 10th, 1961. So I wasn't 9 involved -- 10 Q Now, in the course of your reading 11 and your courses on history did you learn 12 about the role of J. Edgar Hoover during the 13 Kennedy administration? 14 A I read a lot of different things 15 about the role of J. Edgar Hoover during the 16 Kennedy administration. 17 Q What did you read about and what 18 did you learn? 19 A A lot of things. 20 Q Tell us. 21 A Now, you -- what -- when did J. 22 Edgar Hoover die? 1971? 1972? So J. Edgar 263 1 Hoover died when I was 10 or 11 years old. 2 Again, I would submit that my 3 judgment or my -- what I've read about J. 4 Edgar Hoover could have precious little to do 5 with what might have happened in the White 6 House in June of 1996 when J. Edgar Hoover 7 had been dead probably for 15 years? 8 Q My question was, what do you 9 remember about what J. Edgar Hoover's 10 activities were during the Clinton 11 administration, based upon your reading of 12 history and books? 13 A Well, you're just proving my point. 14 There is absolutely no involvement by J. 15 Edgar Hoover in anything having to do with 16 the Clinton administration because he was 17 dead long before Clinton -- 18 Q I didn't ask that question. 19 A Precisely. Could you please read 20 his question? 21 Q You can waste me time and you can 22 waste yours, but I will be moving the court 264 1 accordingly? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: You did say the 3 Clinton administration. 4 THE WITNESS: Could you please read 5 his question? 6 THE REPORTER: Do you want me to 7 read the question? 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q No, I will ask the question again 10 because this is completely nonresponsive and 11 makes no difference. I will repeat it again. 12 A I answered your question. 13 Wait a second. You now said that 14 my answer is nonresponsive. I would please 15 ask the court reporter to read his question 16 and read my answer. 17 Q I'm going to rephrase it because I 18 want to move along. 19 A Well, before -- and I want to 20 establish for the court that my answer was 21 actually perfectly responsive to the 22 question. 265 1 Q I did not certify the question and 2 it's not your prerogative to stop my 3 deposition. 4 Mr. Stephanopoulos, what is it that 5 you learned about in the course of your 6 reading that J. Edgar Hoover did during the 7 Kennedy administration? 8 A Note for the record that for the 9 second time you asked what happened in the 10 Clinton administration, which J. Edgar Hoover 11 did nothing and then -- 12 Q I just said the Kennedy. 13 A Then he did amend that and say the 14 Kennedy administration. 15 Q Kennedy administration. 16 A Right. During the course -- J. 17 Edgar Hoover was the FBI director during the 18 entire John F. Kennedy presidency. He was 19 also the FBI director when Lyndon B. Johnson 20 was President and I believe for most of 21 Richard Nixon, if not all of Richard Nixon's 22 presidency as well. 266 1 He was obviously the FBI director 2 before those presidents as well. I think he 3 went back as far as the last time was 4 Roosevelt, but I couldn't swear to that. 5 I know he was the FBI director for 6 about 50 years, the longest serving FBI 7 director in history. I also believe that he 8 abused his power at times. 9 Q How so? What did you learn about 10 that led you to form that opinion? 11 A I think he -- he interpreted his 12 mandate quite broadly and I believe too 13 broadly and I think he at times collected 14 files on private citizens like Martin Luther 15 King, perhaps like the Kennedys, in a way 16 that was inappropriate. 17 Q Collected FBI files? 18 A He wouldn't collect them. He would 19 make them. 20 Q What about collecting those FBI 21 files in your opinion was an abuse of power? 22 A What was abusive -- what was -- 267 1 what was abusive about it was creating them 2 in order to blackmail people. I'm glad you 3 asked, because I -- I think what's 4 interesting about this, and what is relevant 5 about this is that what J. Edgar Hoover did 6 is nothing like what happened in the White 7 House to my knowledge in 1996. 8 J. Edgar Hoover created files on 9 people, blackmailed them with the 10 information, my reading of history. What 11 happened in the White House in 1996 is that 12 FBI files were mistakenly gathered by 13 low-level employees. 14 When this mistake was discovered, 15 it was immediately denounced by the President 16 and all other officials with responsibility. 17 The information in the files was never used 18 or disseminated in any way, shape or form. 19 I never directed anybody to read 20 them nor to my knowledge did any other White 21 House official, the President or First Lady, 22 and that when the mistake was discovered, it 268 1 was rectified. 2 The difference between J. Edgar 3 Hoover's activities and the activities in the 4 Clinton White House are the difference 5 between night and day. 6 Q Who, to the best of your knowledge, 7 did J. Edgar Hoover gather files on besides 8 Martin Luther King? 9 A Well, as I said, I think he had 10 some files on the Kennedys. I don't remember 11 what else. As I said, I was only four years 12 old. 13 Q To the best of your knowledge, J. 14 Edgar Hoover gathered a file on Ellen 15 Rometsch, did he not? 16 A Uh-huh. 17 Q Learned about that through reading 18 history and science books? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Who is Ellen Rometsch? 21 A She was an East German spy who was 22 alleged to have had an affair with John F. 269 1 Kennedy, among others. 2 Q What was the type of information 3 that you learned in your history studies that 4 was gathered on Ellen Rometsch by J. Edgar 5 Hoover? 6 A Well, he -- he determined through 7 his investigation that President Kennedy was 8 having an affair with Ellen Rometsch and it 9 seemed like he was blackmailing the President 10 with that information. 11 Q In fact, he also found out that 12 Ellen Rometsch was having affairs with half 13 of congress as well; is that correct? 14 A I think that's right. 15 Q He used those files to blackmail a 16 congressman? 17 A Basically, yeah, there was a Bobby 18 Baker investigation at the time and I think 19 that there was a conspiracy of silence, I 20 think that's correct, that both sides decided 21 to keep a lid on all of this is my reading of 22 the history. 270 1 Q Sometimes Hoover was reported to 2 even have cooperated with Kennedy to use the 3 Rometsch files against the congressman so the 4 congressman wouldn't dredge up the affair the 5 Kennedys were having? 6 A Sure, he would play both sides. 7 Q You learned all of this in your 8 history studies and reading the books in high 9 school and college, et cetera? 10 A Since then. 11 Q Since then? 12 A In fact, I mean I should say that 13 since -- let's just get to the point since 14 this is something that -- 15 Q Well, I will ask you questions. 16 A Well, I was going to answer the 17 question. 18 Q Well, you will answer my questions. 19 A No, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm 20 answering your question. I'm answering your 21 last question. 22 In fact, the last time I read about 271 1 this was a few weeks ago when I was reading 2 "Pillar of Fire" by Tyler Branch, who 3 includes a page on this, and that's what's 4 refreshed my memory on this incident. 5 Q But you had read about it before, 6 correct? 7 A Probably. 8 Q It's pretty common knowledge in 9 Washington about J. Edgar Hoover's activities 10 with FBI files, it's not a unique revelation, 11 is it? 12 A I don't know if it's common 13 knowledge. I know it's written about in 14 history books. 15 Q Also his affairs with men in his 16 department, things like that, that's been 17 pretty well documented, correct? 18 A I don't know why you're asking 19 that. 20 Q Well, I'm just asking your 21 knowledge of J. Edgar Hoover? 22 A As I said, I was about 10 years old 272 1 when J. Edgar Hoover died. I read a fair 2 amount of him. Frankly, you know, I've never 3 read anything that would suggest affairs with 4 men in his department. 5 There was a discussion that he had 6 a long-term relationship with his assistant, 7 Clyde Tollson, but there's never been any 8 discussion that he had affairs beyond that 9 that I know about of. I don't know that 10 that's relevant either. 11 Q I'm just trying to find out what 12 you know about J. Edgar Hoover. 13 A Which, of course, is quite relevant 14 to what happened to the FBI files in 1996 15 after J. Edgar Hoover was long dead. 16 Q You're aware that sometimes he had 17 some of his employees go out and tend to his 18 garden and do private matters, that kind of 19 thing? You read about that, right? 20 A I probably did. Again, I would 21 submit for the record that I find it hard to 22 imagine how J. Edgar Hoover's assistant in 273 1 the 1940s, '50s and '60s, who may or may not 2 have attended his garden, has anything to do 3 with the mistaken collection of FBI files in 4 the Clinton White House in 1996 for the 5 record. 6 Q I'm trying to gather the totality 7 of your knowledge about J. Edgar Hoover. Is 8 it your opinion based on everything you've 9 read that he was an extremely ruthless 10 individual? 11 A I'm sure he was a complicated 12 individual, that he had a ruthless side among 13 many other sides. I never met the man. 14 Q Recently you gave an appearance on 15 "This Week" with Sam Donaldson and Cokie 16 Roberts where you made reference to an Ellen 17 Rometsch strategy, correct? 18 A I said what I would call an Ellen 19 Rometsch strategy. 20 Q Before giving that interview in ABC 21 had you ever referred to Ellen Rometsch in 22 any speech you had given publicly or any 274 1 television, radio appearance or writing? 2 A No. I read Pillar of Fire the 3 night before. 4 Q You never made any public reference 5 before? 6 A No. 7 Q That was the first time. Before 8 going on that show on February 8th on "This 9 Week" had you discussed Ellen Rometsch with 10 anyone else in the last two weeks before 11 that? 12 A No. 13 Q Or, say, the last three months 14 before that? 15 A No. As I said, I had just read 16 "Pillar of Fire" the night before. 17 Q Had you discussed J. Edgar Hoover 18 with anyone in the three months prior to your 19 appearance on ABC on February 8th, 1998? 20 A No. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what 22 I will ask the court reporter to mark as 275 1 Exhibit 7. 2 (Stephanopoulos Deposition 3 Exhibit No. 7 was marked 4 identification.) 5 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the video 6 operator. This concludes tape two of the 7 George Stephanopoulos deposition. We will be 8 continued on tape three. 9 (Pause) 10 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the video 11 operator. We're going back on the record. 12 The time now is approximately 4:02 p.m. 13 Mr. Klayman? 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Mr. Stephanopoulos, what I've 16 handed you as Exhibit 7 is the transcript of 17 your appearance on "This Week" with Sam 18 Donaldson and Cokie Roberts on February 8th, 19 1998. I would like to give you an 20 opportunity to review it. 21 A I did. 22 Q I turn your attention to page two, 276 1 middle of the page, "Sam Donaldson: We know 2 what the White House tactics are. I mean 3 they have been almost open about it. 4 Attack the press, and perhaps with 5 good reason, attack the independent counsel, 6 perhaps for some good reason, and stonewall 7 on the central issue, which is the President 8 of the United States. If he has nothing to 9 hide, why is he hiding? 10 "George Stephanopoulos: I agree 11 with that. There's a different, long-term 12 strategy, which I think would be far more 13 explosive. White House allies are already 14 starting to whisper about what I'll call the 15 Ellen Rometsch strategy." 16 You made that statement, did you 17 not, Mr. Stephanopoulos on February 8th, 18 1998, on "This Week" with Sam Donaldson and 19 Cokie Roberts on ABC Television? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Now, before you made this statement 22 on ABC did you think about what you were 277 1 going to say when you were on ABC that day? 2 A Sure. 3 Q In fact, you had thought that you 4 were going to make reference to this Ellen 5 Rometsch strategy at best? 6 A I wasn't sure I would, no. I -- I 7 had been reading about it. It was something 8 I thought about. 9 Q It's not your practice to make 10 things up out of whole cloth, is it? 11 A No. 12 Q You wouldn't say something on ABC 13 unless it was true, would you? 14 A Well, it's my opinion. There's a 15 lot of -- I mean that's what analysis and 16 opinion and judgment are all about, as you've 17 tried to establish here today. I mean this 18 is my opinion. These are my words, this is 19 my characterization, this is my metaphor. 20 But I believe it to be true. 21 Q "George Stephanopoulos: I agree 22 with that," what Donaldson was saying. What 278 1 is it about what he said in the previous 2 sentence that I read to you that you agree 3 with? 4 A All of it. 5 Q That the strategy of the White 6 House was to attack the press? 7 A Part of the strategy, and I think 8 rightfully sometimes. 9 Q You learned of that strategy by 10 talking with people at the White House prior 11 to your appearance on February 8th, correct? 12 A Well, I'm not going to tell you who 13 I talked to or who I didn't talk to. What I 14 am going to tell you is that is my judgment. 15 Q Who did you talk to? 16 A I'm not going to tell you. 17 Q Why aren't you going to tell me? 18 A I have a privilege. 19 Q What's that privilege? 20 A Journalistic privilege. 21 Q Do you have any journalistic 22 credentials? 279 1 A What is a journalistic credential? 2 I don't have a journalism degree, if that's 3 what you're asking. I don't know if that's a 4 requirement to write or speak as a 5 journalist. 6 I have done reporting for the 7 Christian Science Monitor, I have written for 8 Newsweek Magazine, I have appeared as a 9 political analyst since 1997 on ABC 10 Television and when I was in graduate school, 11 I also did a documentary for CBS television. 12 Q At the time you made this 13 statement, did you hold a press pass to the 14 White House? 15 A No. I don't know what relevance 16 that is though. 17 Q Have you ever held a press pass for 18 the White House? 19 A No. 20 Q Have you ever held any kind of 21 credentials that you can show demonstrate 22 you're a member of the press? 280 1 A My contract with ABC News. 2 Q That's it? 3 A That's pretty -- that's pretty 4 good. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Brand, we're 6 going to require production of that contract 7 if you continue to hold it as privilege -- 8 THE WITNESS: To hell you are. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: -- claim a privilege. 10 MR. BRAND: I don't know what the 11 contract has to do with it. If he had no 12 contract, he would be entitled to the first 13 amendment, as anybody is. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we are asking 15 you to produce it. 16 MR. BRAND: I'm not going to 17 produce it. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you have any badge that says 20 you're a member of the press? 21 MR. BRAND: Do you have a badge 22 that says you're a lawyer? 281 1 MR. KLAYMAN: As I matter of fact, 2 I do. You probably do, too. It's called a 3 bar card. 4 MR. BRAND: What is the 5 significance of badge to be a reporter? 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you have any kind of badge that 8 says you're a member of the press? 9 A I have an ABC beeper. I have -- 10 no, you know, I don't carry a badge. I carry 11 a driver's license and a passport. That's my 12 identification. 13 Q Is that, the latter, so you can get 14 out of the country in a moment's notice? 15 A Yes, as a matter of fact. 16 Q What caused you to make that 17 statement on "This Week, I agree with that 18 and there's a different long-term strategy 19 which I think would be far more explosive"? 20 A The words speak for themselves. 21 Q Notwithstanding the fact that you 22 have asserted a claimed privilege, that 282 1 information wasn't made out of whole cloth, 2 was it, that White House allies are already 3 starting to whisper about what I will call 4 the Ellen Rometsch strategy? You obtained 5 this information from alleged sources, 6 correct? 7 A Sure, the -- the -- tying to it 8 Ellen Rometsch -- the Ellen Rometsch metaphor 9 is mine. As I said, I read "Pillar of Fire." 10 That's why I said what I will call the Ellen 11 Rometsch strategy. 12 Q But you obtained information that 13 the use of FBI files was being whispered 14 about by White House allies. 15 A No, that is not the information I 16 obtained. 17 Q What was the nature of the 18 information you obtained? 19 A It's none of your business. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q When you referred to the Ellen 283 1 Rometsch strategy, what are you referring to 2 in this statement? 3 A The words speak for themselves. 4 Q What are you referring to? 5 A Well, I'll read it. "She was a 6 girlfriend of John F. Kennedy, who also 7 happened to be an East German spy. 8 Robert Kennedy was charged with 9 getting her out of the country and also 10 getting John Edgar Hoover to go to the 11 congress and say don't you investigate this 12 because if you do, we're going to open up 13 everybody's closets." That's the description 14 of the John F. Kennedy, J. Edgar Hoover -- 15 Q Finish the phrase. 16 A "I think that in the long run they 17 have a deterrent strategy," then I was 18 interrupted. 19 Q "On getting a lot of?" 20 A "Getting a lot of." Had I not been 21 interrupted, I suppose I would have said 22 something, a lot of information on their 284 1 adversaries, but that has nothing to do with 2 FBI files. I never mentioned FBI files. 3 Q In fact, as you previously 4 discussed, when Robert Kennedy was in charge 5 of getting her out of the country and getting 6 J. Edgar Hoover to go to congress, he went to 7 congress, as you testified about earlier, 8 with the knowledge that there were FBI files 9 on some congressmen, correct? 10 A Right, that's what happened to John 11 F. Kennedy and J. Edgar Hoover. I was making 12 a broader metaphor about background 13 information. I was not referring to FBI 14 files. 15 Q How can we verify that you weren't 16 referring to FBI files just background 17 information? 18 A I just told you. 19 Q Now, is it not true that J. Edgar 20 Hoover used FBI files against the 21 congressman? 22 A It may have been true. I wasn't 285 1 there. 2 Q In fact, J. Edgar Hoover had FBI 3 files on some of the affairs the congressman 4 had with the woman, correct, based on your 5 knowledge of the history? 6 A I don't know. I wasn't there. 7 Q But you've read that, correct? 8 A I read about the FBI files. I 9 don't know whether the FBI file is used in 10 this context, but I read that. 11 Q You read it before you made this 12 statement? 13 A Yes. 14 Q In this statement you did not 15 differentiate between getting information 16 from FBI files or some other source, correct? 17 A Well, as you see, I was interrupted 18 and I was trying to go on, but I was 19 interrupted. 20 Q In fact, you said before you were 21 interrupted, on page 3 of 12, "I think that 22 in the long run they have a deterrent 286 1 strategy on getting a lot of." You meant FBI 2 files, correct? 3 A No, I already answered that. 4 That's not what I meant. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 6 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 7 Exhibit 8. 8 (Stephanopoulos Deposition 9 Exhibit No. 8 was marked 10 identification.) 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Are you marking this 12 or referring to the past exhibit? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's been marked as 14 Exhibit 8. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Referring to Exhibit 8, this is a 17 passage from "The Dark Side of Camelot" by 18 Seymour M. Hersh, page 405. Take an 19 opportunity to review this, 20 Mr. Stephanopoulos, 405 and 406 up to the end 21 of the second paragraph, middle of the page. 22 A Yeah. 287 1 Q Have you read it? 2 A Uh-huh. 3 Q Now, this passage is consistent 4 with what you read the night before with 5 regard to this other book, correct? 6 A It's far more detailed. 7 Q How is it more detailed? 8 A It's two pages, not one paragraph. 9 Q But both of them refer to the use 10 of FBI files against political adversaries of 11 J. Edgar Hoover, correct? 12 A Well, or, more generally, they 13 refer to the background of these people. 14 That's what I was referring to. 15 Q But both of the passages that you 16 read. What was the name of the other book 17 again? 18 A Pillar of Fire. 19 Q Pillar of Fire. That refers to the 20 FBI files as well? 21 A I don't know if it used the word 22 "FBI files," but it refers to it by name. 288 1 Q The answer is yes? 2 A That's not what I said. 3 Q Pillar of Fire referred to FBI 4 files? 5 A I didn't say that. I said I don't 6 remember whether it referred to FBI files. I 7 said it referred to the general matter, you 8 said that, and I don't know why you keep 9 insisting on putting words in my mouth. 10 Q Does this refresh your recollection 11 as to what you meant by Ellen Rometsch 12 strategy when you made that on ABC's "This 13 Week" on February 8th? 14 MR. BRAND: First of all, you keep 15 characterizing his recollection as needed to 16 be refreshed. He's testified fully about 17 what he meant by Ellen Rometsch and where he 18 got the information, so you could you stop 19 characterizing his memory as needing 20 refreshing. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to 22 refresh his recollection. 289 1 MR. BRAND: You've got to show he 2 doesn't have a present memory before you do 3 that, Larry, and like Doug Harvard, the 4 umpire, says, you can go look that up if you 5 want to. That's the way it's done. 6 Please, stop characterizing his 7 memory as failing when, in fact, he's 8 testified fully and exhausted his memory. If 9 you want to ask him about this, pending 10 whatever relevance it has, then ask him about 11 it. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you for your 13 speech, Mr. Brand. Now, let's get back to 14 the questioning. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Let's take it line by line. That's 17 funny? 18 A It is. It really is. 19 Q Good. I'm glad that you find it 20 funny. 21 "George Stephanopoulos: I agree 22 with that and there's a different, long-term 290 1 strategy." 2 Where did you learn there was a 3 different, long term strategy? 4 A In the course of my work. 5 Q What work? 6 A My work for ABC. 7 Q What type of work did you do that 8 caused you to come into that information? 9 A It's none of your business. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you talk with people inside the 13 White House to get that information? 14 A I'm not going to answer that 15 question. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you talk to people outside of 19 the White House? 20 A I'm not going to answer that 21 question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 291 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You then state, "which I think 3 would be far more explosive." Where did you 4 obtain the information that this long-term 5 strategy would be far more explosive? 6 A That's my judgment, that the 7 strategy, if embarked on, would be more 8 explosive. That's my conclusion based on my 9 years of experience. 10 Q What did you mean by explosive? 11 A It would be a matter of some 12 controversy. 13 Q What is a matter of some 14 controversy? 15 A You're the one who used the word 16 "controversy." I don't have to define it for 17 you. 18 Q Well, you just used it yourself, so 19 what do you mean by it? 20 A It means exactly what it says. 21 Q Would it raise legal ramifications? 22 A Not necessarily. 292 1 Q Were you thinking of that when you 2 made that statement? 3 A Actually no. I was referring to 4 political implications. 5 Q What political implications 6 specifically were you thinking about when you 7 made that statement? 8 A That it would be a matter of 9 political controversy. 10 Q I'm not asking you for a source 11 here. I'm asking you how would it raise 12 political implications. 13 A I know it. I'm just -- and I'm 14 answering your question. If you don't 15 understanding English, go back to school. 16 That's my answer. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q How would it raise political 20 implications? 21 A I think if there were a -- well, in 22 fact, it already has, hasn't it? There's 293 1 been discussion about whether people, you 2 know, for instance Bill Bennett, Bob 3 Bennett's brother, has said that all 4 republican candidates for President in the 5 year 2,000 are now going to have to undergo 6 an adultery check. 7 They're going to have to be squeaky 8 clean. That's precisely the kind of thing I 9 was referring to when I talked about this, 10 that this would become a matter of political 11 of controversy if every -- if this were 12 pursued. 13 And everybody agreed to believe it 14 was fair game to look into the backgrounds of 15 political adversaries or anybody in politics. 16 I think -- in fact, my -- my analysis has 17 been borne out in part by events. 18 Q You were also referring to the 19 method of looking into that background in 20 terms of the explosiveness? 21 A No, actually I wasn't. 22 Q You stated that, "White House 294 1 allies are already starting to whisper about 2 what I'll call the Ellen Rometsch strategy." 3 How did you define White House allies? 4 A Speaks for itself. 5 Q I'm not asking you right now to 6 name the sources of that information, but how 7 did you define the term "White House allies." 8 A People sympathetic to the White 9 House. 10 Q Was there a smaller subset of 11 people than you were referring to when you 12 made this statement? 13 A No. 14 Q How do you define people 15 sympathetic to the White House? 16 A Boy. I mean people who agree with 17 the President's policies, people who like the 18 President, people who are democrats, people 19 when don't like the kind of harassment that 20 this lawsuit -- or that at least the way 21 you're conducting this lawsuit demonstrates. 22 People who are fed up with the 295 1 tactics of Ken Starr; people who believe that 2 this case should have never gone to trial; 3 people who like the Family and Medical Leave 4 Act; people who want a minimum wage increase; 5 people who think that doing away with the IRS 6 would -- would harm the country; people who 7 think that a national health care plan is a 8 good idea; people who want to invest more in 9 education; people who believe that we should 10 do more to protect the environment; people 11 who want more police on the street; people 12 who think it's a good thing that the deficit 13 has been eliminated under President Clinton's 14 watch and 15 million jobs have been created; 15 people who are happy with low interest rates; 16 people who are happy with low unemployment; 17 people who have been able to get a 18 scholarship to go to college under the 19 America National Service program; people who 20 are happy that the killing has stopped in 21 Bosnia; people who are hoping for Middle East 22 peace; people who are glad that we were able 296 1 to threaten Sadam Hussain's military force so 2 that we could get the inspectors back in. 3 All those people could conceivably 4 be considered sympathetic to the President, 5 allies to the President. 6 Q People who would believe that it's 7 okay for the Chief Executive Officer to 8 commit adultery? 9 A I don't think I said that. Would 10 you please read my answer -- 11 Q Would they be in that subset? 12 A Would you please read my answer 13 back? 14 Q No, but would they be included as a 15 White House ally? 16 A I gave my answer. 17 MR. BRAND: You're just arguing 18 with the witness. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q People who believe that it's okay 21 to permit perjury in a civil deposition? 22 A You asked me to -- 297 1 Q Are they included in there? 2 A You asked me to define what I meant 3 by White House allies. If you would like to 4 hear the answer read back again, I'm happy to 5 hear it. 6 Q Are those people in your 7 definition, people who say it's okay to 8 commit perjury in a civil deposition? 9 A I answered the question. 10 Q Yes or no? 11 A I answered your question. The 12 answer to that subsequent question was no, 13 that it wasn't included in my original 14 answer. 15 Q People who believe that it's all 16 right to commit adultery in the White House 17 while you're a Chief Executive Officer, are 18 they included in that subset? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 20 relevancy. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond. 298 1 A I gave my answer. 2 Q Yes or no? 3 A I gave my answer. 4 Q You have to answer. 5 A I gave my answer. 6 Q Are you refusing to answer? 7 A No, I'm referring back to my old 8 answer. 9 Q Are those people in that group of 10 people that we just discussed? 11 A If they were in that group of 12 people, I would have said that in the group 13 of people. I gave my answer. You can define 14 it -- as any way you want. I gave the answer 15 to your question. 16 Q Is James Carville in this category 17 of White House allies? 18 A What category? 19 Q That you just defined. 20 A He's in the category I defined 21 there. I'm not going to answer the question 22 as regards to what I said on ABC Television. 299 1 Q Is he in the category of what you 2 said on ABC Television? 3 A I'm not going to answer that. 4 Q On what ground? 5 A I'm not going to tell you who I 6 talked to. 7 Q I didn't ask you whether you got 8 the information from Carville, I just want to 9 know whether he's within the definition of 10 White House allies in ABC Television. 11 A He's within the definition of White 12 House allies I gave in this deposition. I am 13 not going to answer the question as to what I 14 said on ABC Television. 15 Q On what basis? 16 A On the basis that I'm not going to 17 divulge who I did or did not talk to. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Brand, are you 19 instructing him not to answer -- 20 MR. BRAND: Yes. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: -- with regard to 22 that classification? 300 1 MR. BRAND: On the same grounds 2 that we discussed before. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking 4 whether Mr. Carville gave the information 5 which Mr. Stephanopoulos then used to make 6 his statement on ABC about the Ellen Rometsch 7 strategy. 8 I'm asking whether when he referred 9 to White House allies on ABC whether 10 Mr. Carville would be included in that 11 definition as he used it on ABC. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm not answering 13 that question. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing 15 him not to answer that? 16 MR. BRAND: To the extent it's 17 within the asserted privilege, yes. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's not an 19 answer. Are you saying he can respond or 20 not? 21 MR. BRAND: He's fully responded to 22 these ridiculous questions, Larry.
of this deposition