315 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 ---------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs, : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2163 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 2 ---------------------------x 9 Washington, D.C. 10 Tuesday, January 5, 1999 11 12 Continued deposition of 13 LINDA R. TRIPP 14 a witness, recalled for examination by 15 counsel for Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice 16 and agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 10:20 a.m., at the law offices 18 of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street 19 Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Monica A. 20 Voorhees, notary public in and for the 21 District of Columbia, when were present on 22 behalf of the respective parties: 316 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 10 ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 15 Investigation: 16 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 317 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE MAX STIER, ESQUIRE 4 Williams & Connolly 725 Twelfth Street Northwest 5 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5000 6 7 On behalf of The White House: 8 MICHELLE M. PETERSON, ESQUIRE Associate Counsel to the President 9 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 10 (202) 456-7804 11 On behalf of Defendant Department of Defense: 12 13 BRAD WIEGMANN, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 14 United States Department of Defense 1600 Defense Pentagon, Room 3C975 15 Washington, D.C. 20301 (703) 695-3392 16 17 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 18 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 19 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 20 (212) 403-1000 21 22 318 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of the Office of the Independent Counsel: 3 STEPHEN BINHAK, ESQUIRE 4 Office of Independent Counsel 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest, 5 Suite 490 North Washington, D.C. 20004 6 (202) 514-8688 7 On behalf of Deponent: 8 ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE 9 ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE Semmes Bowen & Semmes 10 250 West Pratt Street Baltimore, Maryland 21201 11 (410) 385-3935 12 13 * * * * * 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 319 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 320 4 Counsel for Defendant FBI and EOP 388 5 * Proceedings transcribed from page 379, line 1 to page 386, line 10 designated 6 CONFIDENTIAL and bound separately per request. 7 TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 8 No. 9 - 49 Federal Register 23234 484 9 10 11 * * * * * 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 320 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 LINDA R. TRIPP 4 was recalled as a witness and, having been 5 previously duly sworn, was examined and 6 testified further as follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Ms. Tripp, you realize you're still 10 under oath. This is a continuing deposition. 11 A I do. 12 Q At the conclusion of the last round 13 of your deposition we asked whether you could 14 identify any further individuals of 15 Exhibit 7, this is the list of FBI files 16 produced in this lawsuit. 17 You previously identified certain 18 persons by the name of Debra Ann Amend, David 19 Quentin Bates, Ann Brock, Bill Canary, 20 Maureen Hudson, Susanna Ludwig, Terry Good, 21 Al Nagy, Clinger, Dale, Chris Emory as 22 persons who you had seen files relating to 321 1 those persons in and around the White House 2 counsel's office? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Are there any other persons that 6 you can identify from the list which is 7 Exhibit 7, and before asking you to do that, 8 have you had an opportunity to go through 9 that list with your reading glasses? 10 A Yes, actually I have. The only 11 other name, let me be clear that there were 12 many other names that I saw, but in all 13 candor, even reviewing the list this way, it 14 has not refreshed my memory in terms of 15 specifics to be able to testify completely 16 and accurately. 17 So, the only other name that I do 18 have a firm recollection of is Dave, I think 19 his name is Carney, Dave Carney, and it's 20 listed with a more formal -- yeah. 21 Q How is his name listed on 22 Exhibit 7? 322 1 A David Michael Carney. 2 Q Who is Dave Carney? 3 A He was a fellow who I believe was a 4 commissioned officer in the Bush White House. 5 I'm not certain anymore what his formal title 6 was, nor am I completely certain what office 7 he represented. 8 Q When you say commissioned officer, 9 in the military? 10 A No, the -- and I'm not sure how 11 it's done in the Clinton White House these 12 days, but the special assistants to the 13 President, deputy assistant to the President 14 and assistant to the President are considered 15 commissioned officers and are so named and 16 presented with a framed document so stating 17 the various perks that go with an illustrious 18 position such as a commissioned officer. 19 Q Just to clarify, Mr. Carney was 20 with the Bush White House? 21 A Yes, uh-huh. 22 Q What were his duties and 323 1 responsibilities, to the best of your 2 knowledge, just generally speaking? 3 A I'm sorry, I just don't have a firm 4 recollection of what his duties and 5 responsibilities were. 6 Q As a special assistant, he would 7 work directly with the President? 8 A Generally speaking most 9 commissioned officers in the Bush White House 10 had routine interaction with the President or 11 his immediate staff. 12 I believe, and I'm certain I'm 13 correct, that he had something to do with the 14 political office, whether he was assigned 15 directly to the political office or not I'm 16 not sure. 17 Q Mr. Carney was not a hold-over 18 employee in the Clinton White House, was he? 19 A No. 20 Q He was not a political appointee of 21 the Clinton Administration, was he? 22 A No. 324 1 Q I turn your attention to the 2 listing for yourself on Exhibit 7 wherein it 3 says Linda R. Tripp and then it lists right 4 next to that documents which were contained 5 in your FBI file, it lists one FBI letter and 6 one memo. 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q Do you have any knowledge as to 9 what those documents might be? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form and 11 characterization. 12 THE WITNESS: May I answer? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Yes. 16 A I don't. I do know, though, that I 17 was told by an FBI agent, not Gary Aldrich 18 and not Dennis Sculimbene, I think his name 19 is, but someone, a field FBI officer during 20 my background investigation, which took place 21 in the very beginning of my Bush White House 22 tenure, in a lengthy conversation with this 325 1 gentleman he mentioned raw data, FBI, to me, 2 and led me to believe that the now infamous 3 Greenwood Lake matter was in the raw data, 4 and I explained to him on the phone that that 5 had been, in my judgment, in my 6 understanding -- had been expunged and was 7 completely bogus in terms of the validity of 8 the case and he led me to believe that that 9 was true, that he understood that to be true. 10 Remember that I've received nothing 11 but top clearance, top secret clearances all 12 along. 13 So, anything that would have been 14 in raw data that would not have panned out to 15 preclude the issuance of a top secret or 16 higher access clearance, which I then had -- 17 would certainly have surfaced at that point 18 had it had validity. 19 Q When you talk about the Greenwood 20 Lake matter, are you referring to the alleged 21 arrest record that has become very 22 controversial with regard to release of 326 1 documentation by the Department of Defense? 2 A Right, and which I have always 3 stated was not an arrest based on guidance I 4 had and which I would still do today. 5 Q Prior to joining the Department of 6 Defense, did you ever fill out documentation 7 concerning your employment at the White House 8 where you listed that Greenwood Lake alleged 9 arrest? 10 A No. I certainly filled out the 11 extensive background questionnaire, the very, 12 very lengthy, involved background 13 questionnaire which was far lengthier than 14 any other I had ever done, which was a 15 prerequisite for even entering the West Wing 16 of the White House as a staff member in the 17 Bush White House. 18 That investigation generally took a 19 minimum of three months and at the conclusion 20 of that time, you were either issued or not a 21 West Wing clearance. 22 Q Specifically did you ever list the 327 1 alleged arrest at Greenwood Lake? 2 A No, uh-uh. 3 Q Did you ever mention the arrest at 4 Greenwood Lake with anyone, FBI agents or 5 otherwise? 6 A Well, as I said, with this agent 7 with whom I spoke on the phone. I had at 8 that time been assigned to the office of 9 media affairs in the Old Executive Office 10 Building and was awaiting the outcome, 11 frankly, of the security clearance, because I 12 had been hired to work in the West Wing. 13 But it was very strict in the Bush 14 White House, there was no such -- we didn't 15 have volunteers or interns or uncleared 16 personnel working in close proximity to the 17 President of the United States in the Bush 18 White House. 19 Therefore, regardless of the fact 20 that I had come there from Defense and had a 21 top secret and higher clearance, they started 22 from scratch. 328 1 So, yes, I had this conversation 2 with the field agent, FBI agent about 3 Greenwood Lake and it was not a question of 4 whether I had answered yes or no. It was 5 more about the raw data that was contained in 6 the file. 7 Q Do you know whether William Kennedy 8 had access to raw FBI data? 9 A I don't know. 10 Q Specifically with regard to the 11 question I asked you it lists next to your 12 name on Exhibit 7 one FBI letter, do you know 13 what that FBI letter is? 14 A I don't. 15 Q Do you know what the one memo is? 16 A I do not. 17 Q Have you ever requested your FBI 18 file? 19 THE WITNESS: Have we? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 329 1 Q Have you ever requested any FBI 2 data related to your FBI file? 3 A I know I haven't. I can only speak 4 for myself. I don't know what the attorneys 5 have done. 6 Q Of course we know by virtue of this 7 lawsuit and other investigations that 8 information was released by the Pentagon 9 concerning this alleged arrest record at 10 Greenwood Lake. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection as to form. 12 MS. WEISMANN: Objection as to 13 form. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just laying a 15 foundation. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q We also know that that information 18 was released by Clifford Bernath upon the 19 request of Kenneth Bacon. 20 MS. WEISMANN: Continuing 21 objection. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 330 1 Q Do you have any knowledge as to why 2 these individuals would have released your 3 alleged arrest record to the public? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, they didn't 6 release it to the public. It's my 7 understanding that they released it to a 8 member of the media. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Right, that's what I mean by the 11 public. That member was Jane Mayer, correct? 12 A Yes, Jane Mayer of the New Yorker 13 Magazine. I was familiar with the fact that 14 Ken Bacon knew Jane Mayer. I knew Jane 15 Mayer's name prior to this incident simply 16 because she was known to be very good friends 17 with Sidney Blumenthal and had a history with 18 Ken Bacon, I didn't know what that was. She 19 was one of several that Monica Lewinsky had 20 actually mentioned to me as being friends of 21 Mr. Bacon's. 22 I can't tell you with any certainty 331 1 why these were releases, I can only tell you 2 how things occurred in that directorate as it 3 pertained to any information of a personal 4 nature and certainly more specifically as it 5 pertained to anything having any impact at 6 all on the White House. 7 I can tell you as a senior staffer 8 in that directorate what I observed to be 9 true in terms of the release of information. 10 Q Tell us what that is. 11 A In my tenure in Defense, I don't 12 believe I have ever witnessed the casual 13 release of any information. The Privacy Act 14 was stressed to us literally on a daily 15 basis. 16 My program, in particular, dealt 17 with the public and with sensitive 18 information, private information, personal 19 information that we solicited from these 20 people of a personal and financial nature, 21 for instance -- and medical, that we 22 protected jealously, on a need-to-know basis 332 1 to implement the program. 2 But far beyond the small scope of 3 my program, the Freedom of Information -- 4 excuse me, the Freedom of Information Office, 5 until very recently, was a part of the Office 6 of the Secretary of Defense Public Affairs 7 Office and it was under the direct 8 supervision of Clifford Bernath. 9 The Privacy Act information and 10 adherence to same, was administered through 11 the Office of the General Counsel in terms of 12 that being the -- in our minds, whether this 13 is true or not, we were told it was OGC which 14 administered Privacy Act. 15 But we literally had to include 16 that statement on most documents, that the 17 Privacy Act of whatever year must be adhered 18 to, that kind of thing, and there's a 19 statement. We were all very cognizant of 20 that at all times, certainly they were. 21 So, that and any time White House 22 was involved on any level it was a subject of 333 1 several conference calls daily, not to 2 mention routine telephone calls back and 3 forth to other staff members, but nothing 4 with any impact, and I mean it didn't matter 5 how tiny. 6 Anything that might impact the 7 White House or the Commander in Chief or the 8 Administration as it may relate to Defense 9 was always discussed on either a full cabinet 10 level press level conference call each day or 11 one of several other conversations routinely 12 scheduled. 13 Q So, Mr. Bacon knew that the Privacy 14 Act applied? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 16 MS. WEISMANN: Objection as to 17 form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Based on your knowledge. 20 A He certainly led us to believe he 21 knew. If not, he was doing a good job of 22 acting. He was our boss. 334 1 Q How did he lead you to believe that 2 he knew the Privacy Act applied to the 3 release of information? 4 A He said so, he has said so on many 5 occasions, as did Mr. Bernath, who was very 6 proud of the fact that part of his area of 7 responsibility involved that very sensitive 8 information. 9 Q You worked for Mr. Bacon, correct? 10 A He was my, I don't know what you 11 call it, he was my ultimate supervisor and I 12 believe he signs off on my appraisals. But 13 my direct supervisor, I had several, but 14 Clifford Bernath was in that chain. 15 Q Mr. Bacon was, as well? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Did you detect any hostility from 18 Mr. Bacon or Mr. Bernath after the Lewinsky 19 scandal broke? 20 A Well, I don't know that I've seen 21 either person since that story broke. I know 22 that I had some interaction with Clifford 335 1 Bernath, which was not completely surprising 2 to me considering our history, so. 3 Q What was that interaction, briefly? 4 A The clarification of a flex place 5 work agreement and some guidance on an 6 assignment. 7 Q Do you have any opinion as to why 8 Mr. Bernath may have released information 9 concerning your alleged arrest record to 10 Ms. Mayer? 11 MS. WEISMANN: Objection as to 12 form. 13 THE WITNESS: My opinion is that 14 Mr. Bernath owes his -- let's remember the 15 political make-up of the office from whence I 16 came. It is virtually, at least 90 percent 17 or was at that point, manned by politicals. 18 Clifford Bernath likes to claim 19 that he is a career civil servant, but he 20 owes his very SEShood and his startling 21 escalation in rank to the Clinton 22 Administration and, in fact, was a political 336 1 appointee SES during the first term. He had 2 been a Lieutenant Colonel and then a civilian 3 in the career civil service. 4 So, I believe he would have been an 5 enthusiastic foot soldier. He certainly owes 6 his livelihood and his career advancement to 7 this Administration. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q In the ordinary course of your 10 having worked for Mr. Bacon and Mr. Bernath, 11 do either of them have contact with the White 12 House from time to time? 13 A Mr. Bacon had daily contact with 14 the White House of which I was aware. More 15 than, more than daily, actually, in terms of 16 frequency of phone calls. 17 Mr. Bernath, yes, had contact with 18 the White House, but it was far less. He was 19 not the one who participated, in my opinion, 20 on a routine level because he was political, 21 but not. 22 He was not one of the inner circle, 337 1 so to speak. He was a foot soldier, by that 2 I mean he certainly did what he was told and 3 I witnessed that for several years. 4 But the politicals of whom I spoke 5 earlier would have been Ken Bacon and Willie 6 Blacklow, he was later replaced by Doug 7 Wilson. 8 Q Who in the ordinary course was 9 Mr. Bacon in contact with? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: With respect to 11 what? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q With respect to the White House. 14 A He was in routine contact with the 15 NSC, certainly, the National Security Council 16 press operation. 17 Q Who, as individuals? 18 A I'm not sure except I know that 19 P.J. Crowley, Colonel Crowley had been a 20 former aide to Clifford Bernath and then to 21 Ken Bacon and they had placed him actually in 22 the NSC, so that was someone with whom they 338 1 stayed in very close contact. Mike McCurry 2 certainly in the press office. 3 Those are the contacts for which I 4 had firsthand knowledge. Monica Lewinsky has 5 told me of several others. 6 Q What did she tell you? 7 A That Mike McCurry had routine and 8 frequent contact with others, other senior 9 staff members of the White House and 10 Mrs. Clinton's -- I should say what is 11 considered to be Mrs. Clinton's staff, the 12 Sidney Blumenthal element, especially after 13 he arrived, and he came relatively late, I 14 didn't know him. 15 But Monica had tried to get a job 16 with Mr. Blumenthal and she had hoped that 17 Mr. Bacon could help her to that end because 18 she knew he knew him. 19 Q So is it that she surmised that 20 Mr. Bacon talking to Mr. McCurry would then 21 have contacts with Mrs. Clinton's staff that 22 could get her -- 339 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: No. Remember, again, 4 this is only what Monica told me. So, he 5 spoke relatively routinely with Paul Begala, 6 I believe, with -- 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q He, meaning Bacon? 9 A Yes. With Sidney Blumenthal, and 10 it was Monica's feeling that his contacts, 11 other than in the press operations of the 12 National Security Council and of the White 13 House, were with people of Mrs. Clinton's 14 staff. 15 Q Do you know specifically who on 16 Mrs. Clinton's staff? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q So we've got P.J. Crowley, we've 19 got Mike McCurry, we've got Paul Begala, 20 we've got Sidney Blumenthal and persons on 21 Mrs. Clinton's staff that Mr. Bacon was in 22 routine contact with? 340 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A Yes. 6 Q Was Mr. Bacon ever in contact with 7 Harold Ickes? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Ann Lewis? 10 A Actually, I believe yes, I think 11 Ann Lewis was one for whom Monica had 12 actually mentioned that that was one of 13 Hillary's people. 14 Q Are you aware of Mr. Bacon ever 15 being in contact with James Carville? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q Do you know Mr. Bacon ever being in 18 contact with attorneys of Williams and 19 Connolly? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Or anybody at Williams and 22 Connolly? 341 1 A No, I really don't know. 2 Q Do you know whether Mr. Bacon was 3 ever in contact with an individual by the 4 name of Terry Linzner or his company IGI? 5 A I've certainly heard of them and I 6 don't know that, no. 7 Q Do you know whether Mr. Bacon was 8 ever in contact with a Jack Palladino, 9 another investigator? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q Anthony Pelicano? 12 A That's a new one, I don't know that 13 name. Are they all Italian? 14 Q They may know you. 15 A My trash disappears on a regular 16 basis, so I'm sure they do. 17 Q Who is Willie Blacklow, what 18 specific position did he occupy? 19 A He was the third in command, so to 20 speak, so you had Ken Bacon, he was the 21 assistant secretary of defense for -- and 22 became that, by the way, Assistant Secretary 342 1 of Defense for Public Affairs after hearings 2 on the Hill. 3 Prior to that he had been, his 4 title was the Assistant to the Secretary of 5 Defense and those words, or the lack thereof, 6 have a significant difference in your 7 position in the Pentagon. 8 Then Cliff Bernath was the 9 Principal Deputy Assistant and Willie 10 Blacklow, now Doug Wilson, is the Assistant, 11 actually, Doug Wilson was Willie Blacklow's 12 replacement and was an Assistant -- yeah, 13 Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for 14 Public Affairs. 15 I'm told recently that he has been 16 promoted to Cliff Bernath's former position 17 when Cliff Bernath left. 18 Q Have you ever had any contact with 19 Jane Mayer? 20 A No. 21 Q But you are aware Mr. Bacon being 22 in contact with her from time to time? 343 1 A I was aware prior to this. 2 Q Prior to the incident that released 3 your alleged arrest record? 4 A Right. 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, prior to my 7 being made publicly aware, yeah. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q How were you aware of that? 10 A From Monica. 11 Q What did she tell you about that? 12 A But it was not in conjunction with 13 this incident. It was -- she handled his 14 telephone calls, she handled his calendar. 15 She was rather close friends with Darcy and 16 apparently Mrs. Bacon, Darcy Bacon, knew Jane 17 Mayer, as well. 18 Q Was Mr. Bacon ever in contact with 19 Bill Hamilton? 20 A I don't know the name. 21 Q Bill Hamilton is the husband of 22 Jane Mayer and he is the national editor of 344 1 the Washington Post. 2 A I don't know. That's a very good 3 question. I have no idea. Doesn't ring a 4 bell. 5 Q Have you or anyone around you ever 6 been contacted by the Washington Post 7 concerning this incident? 8 A Oh, I'm sure, haven't we. It would 9 be easier to name those that haven't. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just tell him what 11 you know. 12 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean I don't 13 keep track of the press calls, so I don't 14 know. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q But you never knew that Bill 17 Hamilton was the husband of Jane Mayer? 18 A I think I read it somewhere, 19 actually. 20 Q You never knew that he was the 21 national editor of the Washington Post? 22 A I didn't know until I read it in an 345 1 accounting somewhere. 2 Q You have read several unflattering 3 articles about yourself in the Washington 4 Post, did you not? 5 A Oh, definitely. Certainly not 6 exclusively. 7 Q You've read them in the national 8 section of that newspaper, have you not? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Turning your attention to the safe 11 that you saw in Bernie Nussbaum's office, the 12 Vince Foster safe. 13 A Correct. 14 Q Specifically, can you tell me 15 everything that you've seen in that safe? 16 I know you testified as to some 17 files that you saw last time, but are there 18 things that you didn't mention that you had 19 seen in that safe? 20 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll assert the same 21 cautionary objection and instruction that I 22 made the last time about attorney-client 346 1 issues and national security to identify any 2 things that are in the safe. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You may answer. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay, we routinely 5 kept anything that had to be maintained 6 overnight from the National Security Council 7 in there, so generally speaking there would 8 be, and I don't have a specific recollection 9 of this particular day of what NSC folder was 10 in there, but we did typically and routinely 11 keep the National Security Council 12 information in that safe. 13 Bill Kennedy's file was in that 14 safe. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Which file, what you believe to be 17 his FBI file? 18 A I'm not clear on Bill Kennedy's 19 file. I don't have a good -- I'd rather not 20 say what file, I don't know. 21 Q Did it look like the Dale file that 22 you saw in that safe? 347 1 A I just don't remember. 2 Q Physically? 3 A It was different. I should say it 4 didn't look like, it wasn't in the same area 5 and it wasn't, it didn't jump out at me as 6 being the same. Could have been, don't know. 7 His was relatively thick. 8 Q Anything else? 9 A Well, I had said I believe that 10 Chris Emory and Billy Dale's file was in 11 there, and then I believe I saw something 12 else that I had not appreciated or understood 13 as to what it was I saw in there. I think -- 14 can I? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 16 THE WITNESS: Many, many, many 17 months later watching TV one night on the 18 news I saw a photo superimposed as a graphic 19 on the news of the Rose billing records. 20 I have never seen a billing record. 21 I didn't know that I had ever seen a billing 22 record. I wouldn't know a billing record if 348 1 it hit me on the head. I'm not a legal 2 person and I was never exposed other than in 3 the counsel's office to lawyers on a 4 day-to-day basis, certainly not in terms of 5 billing records. 6 I believe I saw what I now believe 7 to be the infamous billing records in that 8 safe. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you report that to Independent 11 Counsel Starr's office at the time? 12 A Oh, they didn't ask me those 13 questions, anything about this. 14 Q You previously testified in some 15 House proceedings that you saw documents 16 removed from Foster's office and that Debra 17 Gorham said they were going to the residence 18 because they were personal files of Foster, 19 Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton; is that 20 correct? 21 A That is true. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 349 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q What more can you tell us about 4 what you observed those documents to be? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Is there anything else you can add 8 to that? 9 THE WITNESS: No. It was one or 10 two boxes and when I saw them, they were 11 closed. I mean I didn't have any way to tell 12 what was in the boxes and I wasn't really 13 concerned at the time. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Those were coming out of Foster's 16 office? 17 A Yes, coming out of Foster's office 18 in the hands of Tom Castleton, who was 19 escorted and directed by Maggie Williams, who 20 was Mrs. Clinton's Chief of Staff at the 21 time. 22 Q Did you observe what kind of boxes 350 1 they were? Were they litigation boxes? 2 A You know, I don't even know what a 3 litigation box is. 4 Q Let me just show you a box here. 5 We'll let the court reporter photograph it. 6 Did they look anything like this 7 box that I'm identifying here? 8 A You know, I was asked extensively 9 during the Senate White Water hearings to 10 guesstimate the size of the box or boxes and 11 to this day, I can't. 12 I can tell you that Tom Castleton 13 is carrying it, and he's about 5, 8, young 14 man, 24 at the time, I believe, somewhere in 15 there, was bent over carrying it and he 16 carried it like this (indicating) as though 17 it had -- he didn't carry it like this 18 (indicating). 19 The reason I paid attention during 20 that time, and I essentially supervised Tom 21 Castleton during that period and he was 22 disappearing. I had no idea where he was 351 1 going with these things. 2 He later commented to me what 3 Ms. Williams had explained to him as why -- 4 as to why these boxes were going to the 5 residence and he so testified later and was 6 contradicted, but what he told me 7 contemporaneously was the same as what he 8 testified to. 9 Q Let me back up to what you believe 10 were the White House billing records. 11 When did you observe them in that 12 safe? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to 14 relevancy. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN. 17 Q You can respond? 18 A The very day that I saw the files, 19 a bunch of the files that I believed -- well, 20 that I was since come to believe were the FBI 21 files. 22 Q Of the Travel Office and others? 352 1 A Well, the only Travel Office one 2 that I remember seeing is Billy Dale's. 3 Q But the others looked like Billy 4 Dale's? 5 A They did. 6 Q During the time that you worked in 7 the White House, what was the reputation of 8 Hillary Clinton's involvement with day-to-day 9 White House activities, if any? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. In other words, 13 was there a general understanding of what 14 Mrs. Clinton did in terms of White House 15 matters, if anything? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that 18 there may have been different levels of 19 perception based on perspective. 20 I mean remember that I first became 21 exposed to members of the senior staff of the 22 Clinton Administration immediately after the 353 1 beginning of the first term and so in working 2 in the immediate office of the President, I 3 came to know Bruce Lindsay, Nancy Hernrich, 4 President Clinton, Mack McClarity and then 5 Vince Foster and Bernie Nussbaum. 6 I can tell you that the impression 7 that I was given at that early date, 8 routinely, was that Mrs. Clinton was a force 9 to be reckoned with and her staff certainly 10 was, as well. I was very -- from earliest 11 days on, told that her staff had as much 12 clout as the President's staff and that we 13 were to respond immediately. 14 I saw that in day-to-day activity 15 at the White House and then over time it 16 became more and more obvious to me that she 17 was certainly much more involved in many 18 things. 19 My only basis for comparison had 20 been Mrs. Bush in terms of First Lady 21 activities and it was completely, completely 22 different. 354 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q What specifically did you come to 3 understand Mrs. Clinton was involved in? 4 A Well, certainly health care, which 5 with Ira Magaziner's shop, I mean that was 6 obviously a big, big project at that time. 7 But beyond that, it was -- it was 8 different when I was downstairs in the Office 9 of the President and then upstairs in the 10 Counsel's Office where I saw different, 11 different roles, shall we say. 12 Q What were the differences in the 13 roles? 14 A When I came up to the Counsel's 15 Office, and of course the Counsel suite is 16 directly adjacent to what was, I don't know 17 that it still is, Mrs. Clinton's West Wing 18 second floor office. 19 Her interaction and visiting and 20 phone calling between Vince's office and hers 21 was routine. It was regular. It was 22 constant. 355 1 Q Do you know what the calling was 2 about? 3 A Different, many different issues. 4 I did not know early on that it had anything 5 to do with the Travel Office until much 6 later. 7 Q Did Vince Foster ever discuss with 8 you his contact with Mrs. Clinton? 9 A Oh, only in terms of -- in general, 10 in general terms, not, he certainly didn't 11 divulge anything. 12 Q I take it that Mr. Kennedy also had 13 frequent contact with Mrs. Clinton? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, he did, as 16 did Cliff Sloan, Steve Neuwirth and Neil 17 Eggleston. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Would you say it was almost daily 20 contact? 21 A I would. Later told Klein. 22 Q The contact dealt with matters 356 1 concerning White House functions, among 2 others? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 A Well, I'm just trying to think, I 8 mean certainly the time that I noticed it the 9 most was during the aftermath of the Travel 10 Office firing and then the Vince Foster 11 so-called suicide and then White Water, the 12 pink sweater press conference, that kind of 13 thing. 14 So the events blur, there were so 15 many. But constant contact, I mean we saw 16 her all the time. 17 Q The White House phone system, does 18 it record internal calls? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Did you ever take a telephone 21 message for Mrs. Clinton for any of these 22 people? 357 1 A Yes, several times. 2 Q How did you record those telephone 3 messages? 4 A Well, it would depend. Generally 5 speaking, if Mrs. Clinton called, you found 6 the principal for whom she was trying to have 7 a conversation, I mean you didn't just say 8 we'll get back to you. 9 Frequently she would call from the 10 plane or from a remote location, otherwise if 11 she were next door, she might just walk in. 12 But in terms of logging, we 13 eventually adopted the same software that Deb 14 Coyle, the President's personal secretary and 15 also Bruce Lindsay's assistant used to record 16 all the incoming phone calls that were not 17 taken. These never included calls that were 18 taken. We didn't keep that log. 19 Q Did you ever use the traditional 20 telephone message books with carbons? 21 A We had used those before, uh-huh, 22 lots of those. 358 1 Q Did you ever record a call from 2 Mrs. Clinton where you wrote down the subject 3 of her call? 4 A Several times, I'm sure. Remember, 5 it's interesting, because most times if 6 Mrs. Clinton were placing a call from, say, 7 the Old Executive Office Building, she would 8 have, at the time I believe Evelyn Lieberman 9 or Maggie Williams place the call for her. 10 So when I say that I took messages 11 for Mrs. Clinton, it does not mean that each 12 time she made the call I spoke to 13 Mrs. Clinton. I would have spoken to one of 14 her staff. 15 Q But you did speak with Mrs. Clinton 16 from time to time? 17 A Oh, yeah. 18 Q Was she very domineering in her 19 insistence to talk to people? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 359 1 THE WITNESS: She was always 2 pleasant, I mean scary, but pleasant. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q What do you mean by "scary?" 5 A Well, I mean she ruled the school. 6 We knew. 7 Q What do you mean by "ruled the 8 school"? 9 A It was not -- it was different. It 10 was just not what I had seen before with a 11 First Lady. She was every bit as 12 Presidential as he was, and we treated her 13 that way. 14 Q Based on your time at the White 15 House Counsel's Office, was it your 16 understanding that Mr. Foster and Mr. Kennedy 17 and others took orders at the direction of 18 Mrs. Clinton? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: Can I answer that? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure, based on 22 your knowledge. 360 1 THE WITNESS: Say it again. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Based upon your 3 knowledge, what you know. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q I'm also asking you with regard to 6 your impression, what your sense, impression 7 was? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 10 THE WITNESS: It's far more than an 11 impression. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q All right, well, go ahead and 14 respond. 15 A I mean I never saw Bernie Nussbaum 16 other than -- we had ceremonial visits when a 17 Supreme Court Justice retired or something of 18 that nature. I never saw Bernie have 19 interaction with the President, except when 20 he was fired. 21 Vince very seldom that I know of 22 had office-to-office correspondence with the 361 1 President or phone calls, except the night 2 before he died when I took the phone call. 3 But the interaction was all lateral 4 to Hillary's office, sideways I always 5 thought of it, because that's where the 6 interaction was. 7 So whether they took orders or 8 whether they were just -- I don't know, I 9 can't tell you. I can only tell you that I 10 never saw on a routine basis or even on an 11 infrequent basis, I can't remember times that 12 the direction came from the President's 13 office. 14 Q Is it your belief that Foster and 15 Kennedy took orders from Hillary Clinton, do 16 you believe that? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 362 1 Q What do you base that on, other 2 than just the interaction, if anything? 3 A I base it on daily, hourly exposure 4 in that office. 5 Q Did you ever see Mrs. Clinton have 6 a meeting in the White House Counsel's 7 Office, attend a meeting? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q When did you observe such a 12 meeting, was there more than one? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q How many apparently did you 17 observe? 18 A I have a distinct recollection of 19 two. I believe there were others that I 20 don't know that we would classify as 21 meetings. So it's hard to tell. 22 But in terms of a meeting where she 363 1 came in, closed the door and stayed long and 2 there were more than one, more than one other 3 person in the room, I'd call that a meeting, 4 I can remember two. 5 Q When did the first such meeting 6 occur, approximately? 7 A Prior to the Travel Office being 8 summarily dismissed. 9 Q Who did she meet with and in whose 10 room? 11 A I saw her actually meet with Vince 12 Foster and Bill Kennedy in Vince's office and 13 on that very day, she also met with Bernie in 14 his office. 15 Q Are those the two meetings? 16 A No, those I count as one meeting. 17 Q Both of those meetings were behind 18 closed doors? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How long did each of those meetings 21 take, approximately? 22 A I can't tell you. All I can tell 364 1 you is that my impression was the one with 2 Vince and Bill Kennedy lasted longer and the 3 one with Bernie seemed relatively short. 4 Q The second meeting that you have 5 not identified yet, when did that occur? 6 A That occurred when Mrs. Clinton 7 returned from, I believe she had been in 8 Little Rock when Mr. Foster died and upon her 9 return she came in to our office and closed 10 the door and was in with Bernie for some 11 time. 12 Q Anyone else in that meeting? 13 A I don't remember now. 14 Q Did you ever observe Mrs. Clinton 15 having any meetings when you worked in the 16 Office of the President? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 18 THE WITNESS: Down there? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Yes. 21 A No. 22 Q Did Mrs. Clinton ever visit the 365 1 Office of the Presidency while you worked 2 there. 3 A Frequently, yeah. 4 Q Frequently? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q What was the reason for her 7 meetings? 8 A Oh, I don't know, I never asked. 9 She would pop in and out. I wouldn't say 10 meetings, maybe I misspoke. She would pop in 11 and out relatively frequently, but I don't 12 recall having her on the calendar. 13 Q Who did she talk with when she 14 popped in and out? 15 A Well, certainly her husband, Nancy 16 Hernrich, sometimes Betty. It would depend 17 who was down there at the time. I'm just 18 thinking sometimes Susan Thomas was visiting 19 and would hang out in Bruce Lindsay's area, 20 for instance, for several hours and 21 Mrs. Clinton would be there and it was far 22 less formal than I'm making it sound, I 366 1 think, on those occasions. 2 Q Do you believe that FBI files had 3 anything to do with Vince Foster's death? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: Oh, heavens, I have 6 no idea. I don't know. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Your own belief? 9 A I would probably say no. 10 Q On what basis? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 12 THE WITNESS: Maybe in my own mind 13 I didn't know the significance of FBI files 14 during that time frame, so in my own mind, 15 I've justified events based on other pieces 16 of information that I may have had during 17 that time frame. 18 But FBI files weren't on my mind 19 certainly at that time, so I never really 20 have given it a lot of thought. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q But you don't know whether 367 1 Mr. Foster's death was related to FBI files, 2 you don't know one way or the other, do you? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't know that 5 anyone knows. I mean, I don't know anything 6 about Mr. Foster's death, frankly. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q But it is your opinion that 9 Mr. Foster had access to FBI files? 10 A I firmly believe that he had FBI 11 files on his desk. 12 Q You firmly believe that he had FBI 13 files on his desk up to the time he died, 14 correct? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Have you seen recent reports on the 19 Drudge report that news stories are being 20 leaked by the Washington Post to the White 21 House, in advance of their publication? Have 22 you become aware of any such reports from 368 1 Matt Drudge? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object as to 4 relevancy, but you can answer. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 A I'm still unclear as to what your 8 question is. 9 Am I aware of the Washington Post 10 leaking stories to -- 11 Q In advance to the White House as 12 reported by Matt Drudge? 13 A Well, that's completely 14 commonplace. 15 Q What leads you to believe that? 16 A Because it happened, frequently. I 17 mean we would almost uniformly count on a 18 Washington Post heads-up prior to 19 publication. 20 Q Where did you experience the 21 Washington Post heads-up? 22 A In the Counsel's Office and in the 369 1 President's Office and only by that I mean as 2 it has to do with Bruce Lindsay, because 3 often he -- this always occurred late in the 4 evening. There were times I even spent the 5 night on the couch in the Counsel's Office 6 because I couldn't get home because we were 7 waiting to see, if what we had been told by 8 the Washington Post was ultimately how it 9 appeared in print, and the first issues came 10 out late at night. 11 Q Who was it that gave the heads-up 12 from the Washington Post? 13 A I think Bruce Lindsay was the 14 contact at the White House and I don't know 15 with whom he spoke at the Washington Post, 16 but he would run upstairs and keep us posted 17 and then we would wait for the issue. 18 Q Did he say it was an editor who 19 contacted him? 20 A It was someone, I do remember it 21 was someone high up. It wasn't some gum-shoe 22 reporter, but I just don't remember who it 370 1 was and I actually do think if I thought 2 about it I probably could come up with a 3 name, but I'd have to really think. 4 Q Does the name Bob Kaiser ring a 5 bell? 6 A Not right now, uh-uh. 7 Q Leonard Downey? 8 A I -- you know what, I'm not 9 comfortable saying yes right now, right at 10 this moment. I haven't really thought about 11 this in a long time. 12 Q These were on a variety of 13 subjects, the contact was made with Lindsay? 14 A Yes, specifically I'm recalling the 15 Travel Office and White Water as it escalated 16 in the December '94 time frame, was it '94 17 or '93, December '93 and the Janet Reno 18 appointing of a special prosecutor, that kind 19 of thing. 20 Q Was there any contact from the 21 Washington Post that you know of concerning 22 Filegate? 371 1 A Concerning Filegate? 2 Q Yes. 3 A I don't know, I was long gone by 4 then. 5 Q We'll ask if you remember the name 6 of the person, if you could provide it to us 7 either during or after the deposition. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Were there any other reporters that 10 you know of that gave heads-up to the White 11 House? Any other press people? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the 13 relevancy, continuing objection. 14 THE WITNESS: Andrea Mitchell 15 routinely with Bruce Lindsay. I can only 16 tell you on issues that impacted the 17 Counsel's Office, because it was those, it 18 may well have been many more or fewer, I 19 don't know, but I know that those issues that 20 the Counsel's Office had press interest in we 21 would hear from Bruise what he had heard from 22 his contacts. 372 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q At the time that you worked in the 3 White House and became aware of these 4 contacts by the Washington Post with Bruce 5 Lindsay, the heads-up, were you also aware 6 that Williams and Connolly represented 7 Mr. and Mrs. Clinton? 8 A Oh, sure. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Were you aware that Williams and 12 Connolly represents the Washington Post? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q I'm going to ask you just a 18 question focused on this case about the tape 19 recordings that you made of conversations 20 with Monica Lewinsky. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. There 22 will be no response to any of those 373 1 inquiries. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the question is 3 going to be put on the record, anyway, and I 4 don't think you'll have a problem with it, 5 Mr. Zaccagnini. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Are there anything on the 8 recordations that you discussed with Monica 9 Lewinsky that refer or relate in any way to 10 the Filegate controversy? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll instruct my 12 client not to respond to that question. 13 She'll assert her Fifth Amendment privilege. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Just for purposes of 15 the record, just let it be clear that we will 16 request from the Court access to those tapes. 17 Would you be willing, 18 Mr. Zaccagnini, to submit them in camera to 19 the Court to hear those portions that relate 20 to Filegate? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 MR. MAZUR: Objection. 374 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can pose that 2 question to me in a written form, 3 Mr. Klayman. I'll respond then. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Let's go, let me ask a few more 6 questions here on the public record. 7 During the time you worked in the 8 White House Counsel's Office, were you aware 9 of the White House Counsel keeping files, I'm 10 not referring to FBI files, but just files 11 generally on perceived adversaries of the 12 Administration? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form and 14 relevancy. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 MR. MAZUR: Objection. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You can respond. 19 A I have no firsthand knowledge at 20 all of perceived friends or adversaries. I 21 can only say what I was aware of -- with 22 People Base, which started, in my opinion, 375 1 what I saw was would have been in the 2 immediate Office of the President maintained 3 by Nancy Hernrich and I'm assuming those were 4 friends on that database. 5 Q Friends of Bill? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Were you aware of Mr. Joel Klein or 8 anyone keeping files on people like Ken 9 Starr? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A I'm a little hesitant to answer 14 that because I believe that Joel Klein, one 15 of his jobs was to keep information on people 16 who were perceived to be enemies of the White 17 House, and I complained about that very topic 18 to Bruce Lindsay, who at that time I thought 19 was unaware of this. It was during that 20 conversation that Bruce Lindsay said that 21 that kind of talk could get me destroyed. 22 Q When did that conversation take 376 1 place? 2 A Well, it was long after, I'm trying 3 to think, I think Joel Klein came in December 4 of '93 and I was out of there in the May time 5 frame of '94, I moved over to the Old 6 Executive Office Building to start my job 7 hunt. So it was between December and May. 8 Q Are you aware of Mr. Klein 9 disseminating some of that information to 10 persons outside of the White House? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know 13 that. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You don't know one way or the 16 other? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q How did you come to believe that 19 Klein kept such information? 20 A In several ways, but there came a 21 time when I was approached by the Office of 22 the Independent Counsel, I don't know if that 377 1 was during the time of Mr. Starr's, Judge 2 Starr's predecessor, and they actually came 3 and visited me at the White House and asked 4 for a tour of Mr. Foster's office. 5 So actually, I think the first time 6 I became aware of the Office of the 7 Independent Counsel, or whatever it was 8 called at that time, being targeted as an 9 entity that would have information compiled 10 about, it was after that visit and prior to 11 Judge Starr's appointment, certainly, and 12 then later with his appointment. 13 Joel Klein and his secretary often 14 spoke about it, that this was part of his 15 job. He was the White Water -- he was 16 brought on to manage White Water. Bernie was 17 out of that loop completely, just completely, 18 and Joel Klein was the -- 19 Q It was part of his job to manage 20 the various controversies? 21 A As it pertained to the Counsel's 22 Office, yeah, or as they did. 378 1 Q Who was Mr. Klein's secretary that 2 said that to you? 3 A Julie something, I can't remember 4 her name now. I think she went with him to 5 Justice. She came with him from the law firm 6 from whence he came. 7 Q She went to the Justice Department? 8 A I believe when he did. 9 Q She works for him now? 10 A I don't know. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to go into 12 the sealed record right now. This is a 13 separate. Why don't we set up a separate 14 tape. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 16 at 11:15 a.m. 17 (Recess) 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Note for the record 19 that there's five minutes remaining on the 20 hour of Mr. Klayman's questioning. You have 21 five minutes left on your hour. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, I understand. * 387 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 2 at 11:47 a.m. 3 MS. SHAPIRO: We are going to begin 4 the Defendant's cross-examination and as a 5 matter of procedure, I'm going to begin the 6 cross-examination and will go for a couple of 7 hours in total, then Mr. Gilligan will follow 8 probably for a couple of hours and then 9 Mr. Gaffney will follow us. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me ask on the 11 record, are you representing different 12 clients in terms of dividing up the time? 13 How is that working? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, we do have 15 different clients that we represent. 16 Mr. Zaccagnini has agreed he doesn't object 17 to us splitting up the cross-examination. 18 Do you have any objection to that, 19 Mr. Klayman. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: No, as a matter of 21 courtesy, I don't. We just expect similar 22 courtesy if we ever have to do that. 388 1 MS. SHAPIRO: We've provided that 2 to you. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: We have extended you 4 that courtesy before, so, let's go. 5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 6 FBI AND EOP 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q Ms. Tripp, I represent the White 9 House and the FBI. 10 If I characterize any of your 11 testimony from your last deposition, please 12 correct me if it's not a correct 13 characterization. I don't mean to 14 mischaracterize anything. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Did you review the prior testimony 17 before today? 18 A No. 19 Q Have you reviewed the testimony of 20 other grand jury witnesses prior to this 21 deposition? 22 A I was given a -- 389 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague. 2 THE WITNESS: Are we talking about 3 this case? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: When you say Grand 5 Jury, Ms. Shapiro, do you mean in the 6 Lewinsky investigation? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 8 THE WITNESS: No, actually the only 9 testimony I reviewed was Cliff Bernath's. It 10 made me nauseous and I stopped. 11 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 12 Q That was the deposition in this 13 case, the Cliff Bernath deposition? 14 A You were speaking of the Grand 15 Jury. 16 Q The Grand Jury, okay. 17 A This had to do with the Starr 18 report and that's as far as I got. 19 I have, however, reviewed, and by 20 reviewed, I mean skimmed Bill Kennedy's 21 deposition in this case. 22 Q Fine. Before you went to work for 390 1 the Bush White House, you worked at the 2 Pentagon, correct? 3 A For a brief period. 4 Q When was that? 5 A August of '90 until April of '91. 6 Q What was your position at the 7 Pentagon? 8 A I was the GS-3187 stenographer in 9 the Office of the Under Secretary of the Army 10 for Operations Research. 11 Q How did you come to interview at 12 the Bush White House? 13 A I was asked to interview. 14 Q By whom? 15 A I believe at the time it was 16 Maureen Hudson. 17 Q You interviewed for the job as 18 senior floater; is that correct? 19 A Yes. Actually I had been 20 approached years earlier for the same 21 position, but for Vice President Bush, when 22 he first became Vice President and so the 391 1 same people who had suggested I speak to them 2 at that point, also suggested I speak to them 3 when I came back to Washington and knew I 4 would be staying for an extended period. 5 Q When were you offered the job, was 6 it the job of senior floater that you were 7 offered ultimately? 8 A That was the job I took. 9 Q When were you offered that 10 position? 11 A I don't know. I started in April 12 of '91. 13 Q April of '91? 14 A Correct. 15 Q After the 1992 Presidential 16 elections, did you take any time off? 17 A Yeah, I think about two work weeks. 18 Q At what point were you contacted 19 about working in the new Administration? 20 A Well, I returned to work and either 21 the first day of my return or the second I 22 was asked to come work in the President's 392 1 Office. 2 Q So you were there from the very 3 first day of the Administration from January? 4 A Well, I don't know now how long the 5 two weeks -- where it fell. I know that in 6 the very beginning of the first term I was 7 there in the early days. 8 Q You spent about three months you 9 said in the immediate Office of the 10 President; is that correct? 11 A It was in sum total about three 12 months, so when I started was probably the 13 end of January, because it was very shortly 14 after my return to work after the 15 Inauguration. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record 17 reflect and I'm going to not object to your 18 posing leading questions with regard to this 19 background information, but since you and the 20 Department of Justice have asserted 21 objections on behalf of Ms. Tripp and claimed 22 to represent her in her capacity as a 393 1 Government employee, that we will object if 2 you ask leading questions with regard to 3 substantive issues. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, we will be 5 asking leading questions, but your objection 6 is noted. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then I'll be 8 objecting. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, why don't we 10 have a standing objection to leading 11 questions? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll do it the way I 13 want to do it. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Okay. 15 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 16 Q When did you make the transition 17 from the immediate Office of the President to 18 the Counsel's Office? 19 A To the best of my recollection, it 20 was three months following the beginning of 21 my work. 22 Q So sometime at the end of April? 394 1 A I believe so. 2 Q You would have moved to the 3 Counsel's Office; is that right? 4 A It -- I testified the way I want to 5 testify. That's what I recall. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: For the record, 7 Ms. Shapiro, what year are you referring to? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: 1993. 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q Why did you make that transition? 11 A I was asked to. 12 Q By whom? 13 A Vince Foster. 14 Q Vince Foster approached you and 15 asked you if you wanted to work in the 16 Counsel's Office? 17 A Yes. 18 Q He asked you specifically if you 19 wanted to work for Bernie Nussbaum? 20 A He presented me with a scenario in 21 which I would work directly for Bernie 22 Nussbaum and he summarized what he envisioned 395 1 the position to entail. 2 He then had me speak to Steve 3 Neuwirth to iron it out. There were various 4 issues that needed to be addressed having to 5 do with my apolitical status. We did that. 6 Q On your first day that you came in 7 to work in the Counsel's Office, Betsy Pond 8 sat in the desk that was closest to 9 Mr. Nussbaum's office; is that right? 10 A To the best of my recollection, she 11 did. 12 Q Directly across from her would have 13 been Deb Gorham? 14 A To the best of my recollection, 15 yes. 16 Q Who sat behind Deb Gorham? 17 A I believe the day that I started 18 there it was a vacant desk. 19 Q It was vacant? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q Was the desk behind Betsy Pond also 22 vacant before you came to work there? 396 1 A It had been filled by a woman by 2 the name of Cynthia McManus who as I 3 understood it was asked to leave the 4 Counsel's Office. She was there for a short 5 period. Vince Foster said there had been 6 some problems with her -- and there had been, 7 that I had witnessed and she went back to 8 Justice, as I understood it. 9 Q Was she a hold-over? 10 A She was from Justice. 11 Q Had she worked in the Bush 12 Administration? 13 A Not to my knowledge. Certainly not 14 in the White House. I'm told she had had 15 some White House experience at some point. 16 Q How was it that you witnessed 17 problems with her on the first day of your 18 working at Counsel's Office? 19 A The way that the Counsel's Office 20 came to know me was infrequently, and I would 21 say maybe twice they asked if I could be lent 22 from the President's Office to the Counsel's 397 1 Office. 2 So on those two occasions that I 3 can recall right now, I witnessed certain 4 things in the Counsel's Office, and I was 5 introduced on a more formal level to the 6 folks who worked in the West Wing Counsel's 7 Office. 8 Q Had you also through these 9 interactions come to know Betsy Pond and Deb 10 Gorham while you were still in the outer 11 Office of the President? 12 A Not well. 13 Q You knew them well enough to 14 identify who they were? 15 A Certainly. Let me take that back. 16 Betsy Pond I knew in terms of being able to 17 identify. 18 Q But not Deb Gorham? 19 A No, I don't think so. 20 Q Deb Gorham you would have met when 21 you came to work in the Counsel Office suite? 22 A I may have met her before. I don't 398 1 remember. This really -- it's a level of 2 detail that I haven't really thought about. 3 Q Between the time that you started 4 in Counsel's Office and Vince Foster's death, 5 just as a benchmark, did the composition of 6 the people who sat in those four desks 7 change? 8 A Yes. As I stated, Cynthia McManus 9 departed sometime in that time frame. 10 Q You occupied her desk? 11 A At one point. They hired a young 12 man by the name of Tom Castleton. Prior to 13 Tom Castleton coming on, Mr. Nussbaum had 14 hired a young girl from the DNC to handle 15 correspondence, opening of correspondence, 16 dating of correspondence and logging of 17 correspondence. She didn't work out and she 18 was removed from the Counsel's Office. 19 Q Do you know who that person is, her 20 name? 21 A I don't remember her name. I don't 22 recall anyone else. 399 1 Q I think you had testified earlier 2 that around Labor Day of '93, after Vince 3 Foster's death, Deb Gorham then left the 4 Counsel's Office suite in the West Wing and 5 moved over to the Old Executive Office 6 Building; is that right? 7 A I'm sorry, I'm not convinced that 8 it was Labor Day. I do know that it was 9 several weeks following Mr. Foster's death. 10 So, Labor Day may well be accurate. 11 Q Who took over Ms. Gorham's desk 12 when she left? 13 A No one that I recall. 14 Q That remained vacant; is that 15 right? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe so. I 18 don't remember anyone sitting there. There 19 came a time when I moved in to that desk, but 20 I don't remember when that was or for how 21 long. It was a very short period, because 22 then I moved in to Betsy's desk when she was 400 1 moved. 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q So you sat initially behind Betsy 4 Pond? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q Then you moved over to where Debra 7 Gorham sat and then moved over to where Betsy 8 Pond sat? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 10 compound. 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I was 12 there until Lloyd Cutler came. 13 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 14 Q When do you remember that Joel 15 Klein took over as Deputy Counsel? 16 A I believe it was December of '93. 17 Q December of '93? 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q His executive assistant was a woman 20 named Julie, you said? 21 A I believe so. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 401 1 Move to strike. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't know what her 3 title was. 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q What was your relationship with 6 Mr. Klein? Let me be more specific, what was 7 the level of your interaction with Mr. Klein? 8 A Almost none professionally. It was 9 more a, an observing. It wasn't an 10 interaction. Very little interaction with 11 Joel Klein. 12 Q He didn't supervise you in any way 13 while you were working there? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 15 THE WITNESS: No. He complained on 16 various occasions about office matters and 17 having to do with the operational running of 18 the West Wing Office, and so, we had those 19 sorts of conversations, but nothing 20 substantive. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q I think you said that you went over 402 1 to the Old EOB yourself in about May of 1994; 2 is that right? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 4 THE WITNESS: May have even been a 5 little later. It was right around the time 6 that my FBI file was requested, interestingly 7 enough. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q So you think it was either May or 10 June? 11 A It seems to be, May. I didn't 12 write down the dates. 13 Q When you went over to the Old EOB, 14 did you take any vacation time? 15 A I did, although I left the White 16 House with over 900 dollars -- 900 hours of 17 uncompensated vacation time. 18 Q Annual leave? 19 A No, actually the Clinton White 20 House never took annual leave, interestingly 21 enough. They cashed it in when they left, 22 but they weren't charged, at least for the 403 1 first two years, with annual leave, 2 surprisingly. 3 I did take annual leave, however, 4 the career staff did. 5 Q How much leave did you take when 6 you went over to the Old EOB, how long of a 7 time? 8 A I don't know. We'd have to check 9 the records. Mine was completely annotated 10 and submitted through the correspondence 11 office where all my leave was committed. 12 Q Do you think it was more than a 13 week? 14 A Don't know. Don't know. 15 Q More than a month? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She's already 17 answered the question. 18 THE WITNESS: You'd have to check 19 the records. 20 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 21 Q Did you come back to the Old EOB 22 after you took leave and before you left for 404 1 the Pentagon? 2 A Yeah, because there was no Pentagon 3 job at that point. 4 Q When you went on leave, you had not 5 yet gotten another job? 6 A No. I was resume writing in the 7 Old EOB. 8 Q Do you remember when it was that 9 you came back to the Old EOB and started 10 writing resumes? 11 A It was in that time frame from 12 early -- late May, early June, and I started 13 at the Pentagon in August. That was my duty 14 station at that time, and the job I was given 15 was to find a job. 16 Q Did you get any letters of 17 recommendation from anybody in the Counsel's 18 Office for use in your job search? 19 A I didn't ask for one. Bernie had 20 been fired. It didn't seem appropriate at 21 that time. Joel Klein was someone who scared 22 me. Vince Foster was dead. I don't know, 405 1 Bernie. Bruce Lindsay had told me I would be 2 destroyed. I don't know who you thought I 3 would have gotten one from. 4 Q So you didn't ask anybody for a 5 letter of recommendation? 6 A No. 7 Q You didn't receive one, I take it? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't ask for one. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q But did you receive one 12 unsolicited? 13 A From? 14 Q From anybody? 15 A Actually Bernie had offered to give 16 me one when he left. 17 Q Who did? 18 A Bernie Nussbaum. 19 Q Bernie offered to give you one? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q Did he, in fact, give you one? 22 A I didn't ask for one, I just got 406 1 through telling you that. 2 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. 3 A I declined. 4 Q He offered to give you a letter of 5 recommendation, you declined to accept it? 6 A That's right. 7 Q Did you ever see, did he actually 8 write out the letter and show it to you? 9 A I wrote most of his correspondence 10 and I didn't write one for myself. I found 11 that to be a little bit disingenuous. 12 Q So you never saw any letter of 13 recommendation that he wrote for you? 14 A I wrote several for Bernie for 15 others. 16 Q But you didn't see one that he 17 wrote for you? 18 THE WITNESS: How many times do I 19 have to answer this? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One more time. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q It's a different question than I 407 1 think you're answering. 2 A No. 3 Q Prior to this deposition, have you 4 ever had a conversation with Mr. Klayman or 5 any of his staff? 6 A I had one conversation with 7 Mr. Klayman. I'm sorry, I don't remember the 8 time frame. It was this year. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: This year? 10 THE WITNESS: Last 11 year, '97 -- '98, sorry. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q Was it in person or by telephone? 14 A It was on telephone. 15 Q Who were the participants to the 16 conversation? 17 A I'm really not clear on why I even 18 had this conversation, but -- or what it was 19 about -- but it was with a lawyer and I think 20 it was Joe Murtha. I think it was my other 21 counsel. 22 Q On the other end of the phone was 408 1 Mr. Klayman? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q Did he identify himself as 4 Mr. Klayman? 5 A Yes. Yes. 6 Q Was there anybody else on the phone 7 with Mr. Klayman? 8 A I don't remember. I don't remember 9 speaking -- I don't remember speaking to 10 anyone else. There may well have been 11 someone in the background, but I don't know. 12 Q Who contacted whom? 13 A I don't remember. This was a -- I 14 can't, right now as we sit here, remember the 15 time frame. I think it was after my 16 testimony before the grand jury. I think it 17 was about files, but I'm not. 18 Q You don't remember whether he 19 called you or you called him? 20 A I don't think we called him, but I 21 don't know. I don't know. We'd have to see 22 if we could -- excuse me a minute. 409 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't remember too 3 much about this. Yeah, I just don't 4 remember. This was a very intense time for 5 me and this was not my biggest concern, 6 frankly. 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q Were you speaking from your home or 9 from your attorney's office or from some 10 other place? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 12 THE WITNESS: Home. 13 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 14 Q Have you ever given Mr. Klayman 15 your home telephone number? 16 A I don't know if we did that day or 17 not. 18 Q Did Mr. Klayman ask you if you were 19 willing to cooperate in providing testimony 20 in this case? 21 A I don't remember the substance of 22 the conversation. You're free to talk to my 410 1 attorney who I will allow to speak to you 2 about that conversation. I don't remember 3 it. 4 Q Do you remember the date of the 5 Travel Office firings? 6 A I don't. 7 Q Does May 19, 1993, sound about 8 right? 9 A I think it was May. I'm sorry, I 10 don't remember the date. 11 Q You testified a couple weeks ago 12 that shortly before the Travel Office firings 13 you remember Bill Kennedy coming in to the 14 Counsel's Office for a meeting that Deb 15 Gorham indicated to you was a Travel Office 16 meeting; is that right? 17 A I think I referenced many people 18 going in to that meeting if we are speaking 19 of the same meeting. 20 Q Do you remember Bill Kennedy coming 21 in to the Counsel Office suite for a meeting 22 which Deb Gorham indicated to you was a 411 1 Travel Office meeting? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound, 3 leading. 4 THE WITNESS: I believe I testified 5 that Bill Kennedy was one of a group of 6 people who came to attend a meeting that Deb 7 Gorham described to me as a Travel Office 8 meeting. 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q You testified that when Bill 11 Kennedy came in to this meeting, that he was 12 carrying what you called a redwell under his 13 arm; is that right? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 15 THE WITNESS: I believe I testified 16 that he was carrying a redwell and that he 17 was carrying other files. 18 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 19 Q So he had things in both of his 20 arms; is that your recollection? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 22 THE WITNESS: That's my 412 1 recollection. 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q Did he have files inside the 4 redwell? 5 A I don't have a distinct 6 recollection of whether it was fastened or 7 not. It was wide. The files that I 8 referenced, I believe in my testimony, were 9 those that, I have stated, had a commonality 10 to them to the others that were in his 11 office, yes. 12 Q But at the time that you saw 13 Mr. Kennedy come in to your office with 14 files, you didn't know about any commonality 15 at that point, correct? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading 17 and misstates prior testimony. 18 THE WITNESS: No, that's not true. 19 I had already seen those sorts of files in 20 the White House complex. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q Are these the files that you said 413 1 you saw in Mr. Kennedy's office in the Old 2 Executive Office Building? 3 A Yeah. I don't know at that time 4 whether it was in Craig Livingstone's office 5 or in Bill Kennedy's office. I later saw, 6 for sure, stacks of those files in 7 Mr. Kennedy's office. 8 Q You say you don't remember if files 9 were in the redwell or not; is that correct? 10 A I don't know. 11 Q But you did see files in the other 12 arm; is that what you're saying? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it 15 was in the other arm or if it was under one 16 arm with the redwell, I really don't know. 17 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 18 Q Do you remember where you were 19 sitting at the time that you noticed that he 20 was carrying this redwell? 21 A No, I could have been standing, for 22 all I know. 414 1 Q Is this, I'm showing you a sort of 2 typical government file, is this what you 3 mean when you talk about a redwell? 4 If you want, the video, you can 5 show what I'm holding up here. 6 Some people call it a redwell, an 7 accordion file. Is this what you're 8 referring to? 9 A I thought that the one that he had 10 was similar to that, but I thought that it 11 had a cover with a string. But I could be 12 wrong. 13 Q So it would have a flap over the 14 top? 15 A Yeah, and I can't tell you if it 16 was securely fastened or not, I just don't 17 know. I thought it had a cover. 18 Q The files that you observed that he 19 had with him, were they this sort of a 20 government issue type file? 21 A I already testified that I don't 22 remember. 415 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's all right. 2 (Counsel conferred with witness) 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q Do you remember if they were manila 6 like this or if there was some color? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q Do you know if they were legal size 9 or letter size? 10 A I don't. 11 Q Do you remember if they were 12 flexible or stiff? 13 A I think I've testified that I don't 14 know a whole lot about what I remember about 15 the files, except that they looked the same 16 to me. They had similarities. 17 Q Well, I'll try to jog your memory, 18 but if you can't remember, you can't 19 remember. But I'm suggesting various 20 characteristics so that it might jog your 21 memory of what these looked like. 22 A Right, I don't know. 416 1 Q Did you see any labels on the 2 folders? 3 A Labels, meaning? 4 Q Any writing on the folders? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 6 answered, and leading. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q You can answer it. 10 A I don't remember if the ones that 11 Mr. Kennedy was carrying -- if, at that time, 12 I saw any name on the portion where there 13 would be a file folder name. I don't 14 remember. I later saw others that I could 15 see names on it which is how I saw names. 16 Q Were there any other markings, or 17 anything else of a descriptive nature about 18 the files, that you can recall? 19 A Not the ones that Bill Kennedy was 20 carrying, no. 21 Q Do you remember what time of day it 22 was when Mr. Kennedy came in to attend this 417 1 meeting? 2 A Day time. 3 Q Morning, afternoon? 4 A Couldn't tell you. 5 Q You don't remember where it was 6 that you were standing? 7 A I don't. 8 Q When someone comes in the front 9 door of the West Wing Counsel Office suite, 10 to get in to what was then Mr. Foster's 11 office, how would they walk? 12 A How would they walk. Well it would 13 depend if they were going directly in, if 14 they were stopping at one of the front desks. 15 Assuming -- 16 Q Did Mr. Kennedy stop at any of the 17 front desks? 18 A As I have testified, a group of 19 them came in together. They didn't single 20 file, immediately beeline it in to Vince's 21 office. They were mingling right there in 22 the front. 418 1 Q Was Mr. Kennedy in a group of 2 people such that there were people on either 3 side of him? 4 A I don't remember. You're asking me 5 a level of specificity that I just don't 6 remember. I didn't think of it at the time 7 as being as significant as it has turned out 8 to be. 9 Q But you are located in such a place 10 that you could see the files; is that your 11 testimony? 12 A I have said so, yes. 13 Q When Mr. Kennedy and the other 14 people that you had mentioned earlier went in 15 to this meeting, did they close the door? 16 A Don't know that they immediately 17 closed the door, but it was eventually 18 closed. 19 Q Do you know how long the meeting 20 lasted? 21 A I don't. 22 Q Were there other times before that 419 1 meeting that Mr. Kennedy would come in to 2 Counsel's Office, Counsel Office suite for 3 meetings? 4 A I'm sorry, I don't understand. 5 Q Had you ever observed Mr. Kennedy 6 attend meetings in the past in the Counsel 7 Office suite? 8 A Ever? 9 Q Prior to this particular day and 10 this particular meeting, had you ever 11 observed? 12 A He was a member of the Counsel's 13 Office staff and as such attended the 9:00 14 meeting, staff meeting, every day in Bernie's 15 office. 16 Q Did you ever observe him carrying 17 files or folders or materials of any kind in 18 to any of these meetings? 19 A I'm sure I did. I don't have a 20 specific recollection. I have a recollection 21 of this simply because of the other 22 information that I had become privy to about 420 1 the Travel Office and I was paying attention. 2 Q So there was nothing particularly 3 unusual about what Mr. Kennedy was carrying 4 or his appearance there? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound, 6 vague and ambiguous and leading. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: You're free to 8 object, Mr. Klayman, but I'd like to finish 9 the question first, please. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well it had so many 11 compound parts to it, I thought you were 12 finished. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Could you repeat 14 the question, please? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, sure. 16 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 17 Q Is it your testimony that there's 18 nothing unusual about seeing Mr. Kennedy in 19 the Counsel Office suite, or carrying 20 materials, but it was simply because of the 21 Travel Office nature that you paid particular 22 attention; is that your testimony? 421 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 2 compound, vague and ambiguous. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 4 the question? 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Can you break it 7 down? 8 THE WITNESS: Was it unusual that 9 he was in the Counsel's Office, clearly not. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q Was it unusual that he would be 12 carrying things? 13 A I don't recall whether he carried 14 things routinely or not. I recall him 15 carrying things that day. I was paying 16 strict attention to what Mr. Kennedy was 17 doing that day. 18 Q So you don't know if, on prior 19 occasions, he came in to the Counsel Office 20 suite carrying things? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Asked and 22 answered. 422 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it 3 one more time. 4 THE WITNESS: I'm certain 5 Mr. Kennedy frequently carried materials. As 6 long as you don't ask me to specifically name 7 the days, I'm sure that we could be safe in 8 saying that. 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q Did you say approximately how much 11 time that meeting lasted? 12 A I didn't. 13 Q Do you know how much time it 14 lasted? 15 A I don't. 16 Q Did everybody leave the Counsel 17 Office suite after that meeting broke up? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember in 20 what order they left. I don't remember how 21 long it lasted. It was a relatively long 22 meeting, I would say. I don't remember who 423 1 left and who stayed, frankly. 2 Remember that I've testified that 3 there was more than one such meeting, so I 4 can't be clear on how long each one lasted or 5 who left in what order. 6 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 7 Q You had testified that, on the same 8 day of the meeting that we are discussing, 9 you went in to Vince Foster's office with Deb 10 Gorham to look at some photographs; is that 11 right? 12 A I don't know that we went in to 13 look at photographs. We went in for some 14 reason, and she showed me a photograph, or 15 two, actually, I believe. 16 Q This was the same day as was the 17 Travel Office meetings? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You don't remember the reason that 20 you went in to the office? 21 A I don't. 22 Q Mr. Foster, I take it, was not in 424 1 the office at that time? 2 A No, uh-uh. 3 Q Was Mr. Nussbaum in his office? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q Was anybody else with you and 6 Ms. Gorham when you went in to Vince Foster's 7 office? 8 A No, I don't think so. 9 Q Where were the photographs located 10 in Vince Foster's office? 11 A I believe they were near, well his 12 office is very tiny. I don't know if you've 13 been in there. There was a small sofa and a 14 small coffee table and his desk all within a 15 very compressed area, and I believe they were 16 above the -- on the wall or on the bookshelf 17 in front of his desk, and in front of the 18 coffee table. 19 Q About how far from there, from 20 where you saw the photos was his actual desk? 21 A Right there. 22 Q Right next to each other? 425 1 A You would fall, you'd have to be 2 careful how you walked, it was that tight. I 3 wasn't wearing reading glasses then. I think 4 even today I would not have needed reading 5 glasses for the files on the desk. We were 6 that close. 7 Q Did you use reading glasses back 8 in 1993? 9 A No. I didn't get them until, I 10 think, I had been at the Pentagon a year and, 11 actually, I've never worn glasses in the 12 Pentagon until this prescription. 13 Q Are you near-sighted? 14 A I have an astigmatism in my right 15 eye, very minor and doesn't require a 16 prescription, according to the 17 ophthalmologist, and I have old age eyesight 18 for reading. You'll get it, too. 19 Q In 1993 you didn't use any 20 corrective lenses of any kind? 21 A No. 22 Q Had you ever seen the photos before 426 1 that were in Vince Foster's office? 2 A I don't remember seeing them 3 closely. This was one of several times that 4 Deb showed me photos. I don't know that that 5 was, as I've said, the reason we went in 6 there, and I don't recall why we did, except 7 that I would have probably taken up any offer 8 of going in because I was very suspicious 9 about what I was seeing. 10 At one point he had added a picture 11 of himself, with his wife, on a boat. We 12 went in to see that at one point. The Miss 13 Mary's, I think, was early on. I think that 14 was at that day, the May day. 15 Q You testified earlier that 16 Mr. Foster was very fastidiously neat; is 17 that right? 18 A Relatively speaking. Compared to 19 the way I am, certainly. 20 Q That his desk was relatively free 21 from clutter? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 427 1 THE WITNESS: In terms of how his 2 office looked routinely, it wasn't piles and 3 piles and piles like Bill Kennedy's office. 4 It was a relatively orderly sense when you 5 walked in. Certainly, work present and 6 accounted for on his desk, but not the Bill 7 Kennedy method of operation. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q Was there clutter on his desk the 10 day that you were looking at the photographs? 11 A There were files on the desk. 12 Q Was there anything else other than 13 files? 14 A I don't remember. I'm sure. 15 Q Did you go over to his desk so that 16 you could get a better look at the files? 17 A I was standing right in front of 18 his desk. 19 Q So you didn't need to go over and 20 get a better look, you could see them, is 21 that your -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 428 1 THE WITNESS: I testified I saw 2 them, yes. 3 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 4 Q Did the files that you saw in his 5 desk have labels on them, or was there 6 writing on them? 7 A I don't remember writing. 8 Q Do you remember a typed label, like 9 on a white adhesive sort of label? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 11 THE WITNESS: I know I saw the name 12 Dale. 13 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 14 Q Do you have any recollection about 15 how the name Dale appeared on the file 16 folder? 17 A I don't. 18 Q Do you remember if it was in all 19 capitals or if it was lower case, upper case? 20 A You just asked me if I had any 21 recollection. I said I don't, so your asking 22 me further clarifying questions isn't going 429 1 to help me. 2 Q Sometimes your recollection can be 3 refreshed with some prompting. 4 A I know, I know. I wish. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: As long as the 6 prompting isn't leading. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, she's allowed 8 to lead, right? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I don't have any 10 objection. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Are you going to 12 night school? Do you think this is so much 13 fun you want to practice law? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: She's not allowed to 15 lead, in our opinion. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not of the 17 caliber that could ever do what you people 18 do. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let me take a 20 break for a minute. 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 22 at 12:21 p.m. 430 1 (Recess) 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 3 12:23 p.m. 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q We were talking about the file that 6 you saw on Mr. Foster's desk. 7 A Files. 8 Q Files. How many of the actual 9 names on the files could you read? 10 A I only saw the name Dale. 11 Q I'm going to ask you again if 12 there's any description you can give to that 13 file that you saw, in terms of identifying 14 characteristics. 15 A No. 16 Q You can't remember anything at all 17 about what that file looks like? 18 A No. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 20 move to strike. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q This file made an impression on 431 1 you; isn't that right? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 3 THE WITNESS: The name made an 4 impression on me. 5 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 6 Q It made an impression on you 7 because shortly after you saw that file, 8 Mr. Dale was fired; is that right? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 10 THE WITNESS: No, it was a little 11 more than that. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q A little more than what, the 14 impression? 15 A No, the -- I had been aware, as I 16 testified previously, to a concerted effort 17 to remove the Travel Office employees. 18 I testified that I was familiar 19 with that because of conversations I had had 20 with Katherine Cornelius and Clarissa Cerda, 21 so I was sensitive to that -- and other 22 reasons. 432 1 Q But clearly it made an impression 2 on you, correct? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 4 asked and answered. 5 THE WITNESS: That the Travel 6 Office was being set up? 7 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 8 Q That, when you saw this Dale file, 9 it meant something to you? 10 A Oh, clearly. I thought they were 11 in danger. I should have warned them. 12 Q You remembered the appearance of 13 this file at least for several months, 14 because you said several months later you saw 15 files of a similar commonality to them; is 16 that right? 17 A That's very true, many of them, and 18 I can't tell you -- 19 Q So you had in your mind at that 20 point what these files looked like; is that 21 right? 22 A In 1993? 433 1 Q Yes. 2 A Yes, I think so. I'm sorry, I just 3 don't remember the color or the size. 4 Q Or anything else about them; is 5 that right? 6 A Well that they looked like files. 7 They looked like files. I'm not going to be 8 more specific when I can't remember 9 specifically. 10 Q But these were burned into your 11 mind enough so that -- 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection of your 13 characterization "burned in," but go ahead. 14 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 15 Q You remembered these files well 16 enough so that you talked to Mr. Snow about 17 them; is that right? 18 A Yeah, but it wasn't strictly 19 because I remembered them by what they looked 20 like. I had other, other information that 21 made me question what they were back then, 22 even though I had never even heard of 434 1 Filegate, never suspected at that point that 2 they had been illegally obtained from the 3 FBI. 4 Q You don't remember what they looked 5 like. Let's talk about what they didn't look 6 like, because you testified that you could 7 say what they didn't like look; is that 8 right? 9 A I think I testified that they 10 didn't look like White House personnel 201 or 11 the equivalent file. 12 Q Lets start there, what does the 13 White House 201 file look like? 14 A The ones that I've seen -- and I 15 think I also testified that they didn't look 16 like the security files that Craig 17 Livingstone's office, and his predecessors, 18 had maintained, which, by the way, stayed the 19 same in appearance from the Bush White House 20 days to my time in the Clinton White House. 21 Q Let's start with the 22 personnel 201s, what did they look like? 435 1 A I don't remember what they looked 2 like now. I've had many other 201 files to 3 look at since then, or the equivalent, at 4 Defense, and I, right now, don't know if it's 5 Defense 201s, or, in fact, if they are even 6 called 201s. At the time they looked 7 different to me. 8 Q But you can't think now about what 9 they looked like, the personnel folders? 10 A No. I can tell you that the White 11 House personnel office folders had a side 12 that had a compilation of what appeared to be 13 SF 50s or 52s readily apparent. You could 14 see them sideways and you could see them if 15 it were opened. These didn't have that. 16 Q I'm not sure I understood. Could 17 you describe again what you mean? 18 A Again, these are only the files 19 that I've seen, and I've seen my own, as 20 well. I believe it was the left or the 21 right -- I really shouldn't say -- one side 22 had -- it appeared to be a historic overview 436 1 of each 50 or 52. 2 Q You're describing the inside of the 3 file? 4 A Right. Inside of the file. 5 Q The outside of the file, do you 6 remember? 7 A I don't remember. 8 Q Do you know or can you tell me what 9 a 201 personnel file is? 10 A I may be mischaracterizing the 11 name; a personnel file as opposed to a 12 political file. 13 By that I mean -- when I speak 14 specifically of the White House -- I mean the 15 Office of Administration White House 16 Personnel Office that oversees the life 17 insurance benefits, the leave situation, 18 should it be adhered to, the health insurance 19 pay, time in grade, personnel related issues. 20 Q What's the SF, what's the 52 that 21 you referred to? 22 A I'm not sure if it's a 50 or a 52, 437 1 and it's a form which generates those changes 2 or reflects those changes in personnel. 3 Q You also said that the Dale file, 4 and these others with the same commonality, 5 did not look like a personnel security file; 6 is that right? 7 A From my experience, yes. 8 Q Do you remember what a personnel 9 security file looks like? 10 A We are now in 1999. I can tell you 11 that in 1993, the White House personnel files 12 of which I had seen, the files which Bill 13 Kennedy, Craig Livingstone and Vince Foster 14 had, were different. That's what I can tell 15 you. 16 Q But you can't tell us in what way 17 they are different? 18 A Well the stacks and stacks of them 19 in Bill Kennedy's office looked like the ones 20 that were in the back by the little anteroom 21 in Craig Livingstone's office, looked like 22 the ones Bill Kennedy carried, and looked 438 1 like the ones in Bernie's safe used by Vince 2 Foster, looked like the one that said Dale, 3 and, later, the Chris Emory one, as well. 4 Q Do you have memory of the security 5 folders being color-coded? 6 A I don't remember. I really didn't 7 pay a lot of attention to Craig Livingstone 8 or his predecessor's work, only when it 9 pertained to something specific, for 10 instance, my own submitting forms. There was 11 a routine that the young lady who lived in 12 there -- where these forms were placed. I 13 don't remember what the files looked like. 14 Q Had you been back in to the 15 anteroom, as you called it, in Craig 16 Livingstone's office? 17 A I don't know that I was in it. The 18 door was open and I was in that doorway, 19 yeah. 20 Q Are you referring to the safe? 21 What do you mean when you say anteroom? 22 A It seemed like a walk-in -- like a 439 1 walk-in pantry of some sort. 2 Q I think you also said that these 3 files, that all had the same commonality, did 4 not look like vetting files; is that correct? 5 A They did not look like the vetting 6 files that I had seen. 7 Q What did the vetting files that you 8 had seen look like? 9 A They looked different, and they 10 didn't all look alike, they all had -- 11 Q So there were many different types 12 of vetting files? 13 A None of the vetting files that I 14 saw looked like the files that were in Bill 15 Kennedy's office at all. 16 Q Do you remember anything about what 17 any of the vetting files that you are 18 familiar with looked like? 19 A There were several vetting files 20 that I saw at rather close hand, and I don't 21 remember what they look like. Bobby Inman's 22 was one, I think judge -- what's his name. 440 1 Q You don't need to tell us who the 2 vetting files were, I'm interested in the 3 appearance of what the files looked like. 4 A They didn't look like these. 5 Q Other than not looking like those, 6 there's nothing else you can tell us? 7 A No, I didn't pay a lot of attention 8 to the vetting files. I paid more attention 9 to these because of my fears. 10 Q You looked at the vetting files 11 close enough to know, at least, that one of 12 them was Inman's file, correct? 13 A I saw that, I saw Bobby Inman's 14 file. 15 Q Do you remember anything about what 16 that file looked like? 17 A It was open at the time I saw it, I 18 believe, so I really don't remember. 19 Q I think you said that you concluded 20 that the Dale file that you saw in Vince 21 Foster's desk was an FBI file; is that right? 22 A I concluded that later. 441 1 Q What do you mean when you say FBI 2 file? 3 A Well, I don't know what I mean. I 4 know that I didn't think that at the time, 5 and when I was at the Pentagon and the 6 so-called Filegate story broke, I remember 7 thinking, oh, that must have been what I saw. 8 I had other reasons to make that leap. 9 Q Do you have in your mind a picture 10 of an FBI file? Is it something that you 11 envision coming from the shelves of the FBI 12 and landing in the White House? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, 14 multi-compounded question, leading, as well 15 as incomprehensible. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I 17 have a vision of what an FBI file would look 18 like. I've made no effort to try to 19 determine to this date what FBI files look 20 like, if there is any commonality to them at 21 all. I can only tell you what I saw. 22 In the safe in Bernie's office, the 442 1 safe that was used by Vince Foster, I came 2 across several of these, like, what I refer 3 to as FBI files. 4 In looking for a place for the, I 5 believe it was the National Security binder 6 that I was looking for a place to store, I 7 came across these files again, and, in 8 fingering through them, saw information that, 9 later, when I read about Filegate, made me 10 think that is what I saw. 11 At the time, seeing the words 12 Department of Justice or Justice Department 13 and the seal really didn't mean anything to 14 me because the White House had -- our office, 15 Counsel's Office, in particular, had daily 16 contact with the Justice Department. 17 Janet Reno and Webb Hubble were in 18 our office routinely, and I, frankly, 19 embarrassingly, hadn't made the connection 20 FBI and the Justice Department. 21 Q You said earlier that you don't 22 remember seeing FBI or Department of Justice 443 1 blazing on the front of the files; is that 2 right? 3 A I think what I testified to is that 4 I didn't see the words FBI on the front of 5 the cover. 6 Q Do you know if FBI files -- 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me, just 8 one second. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Sorry. 10 (Counsel conferred with witness) 11 THE WITNESS: My counsel advises me 12 that I need to clarify where I saw the words 13 Justice Department or Department of Justice 14 and the seal, and that was inside several of 15 these files that were in the safe. I'm sure 16 you have the list in front of you, as well. 17 I can't tell you which one today, but there 18 were several and they were -- it was whatever 19 part of what was in the file. I mean it 20 wasn't on the outside. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q So you're saying that you went 444 1 through the files that were in the safe? 2 A No. What I'm telling you is I went 3 through -- have you ever gone through a file 4 folder, a drawer, to find space -- and what I 5 saw was Department of Justice and the seal on 6 more than one piece of paper in these files. 7 Q So you're saying that you were 8 leafing through the insides of files? 9 A No, I wouldn't characterize it that 10 way. 11 Q So you're only leafing through 12 closed files; is that your testimony? 13 A Well, they weren't closed at the 14 top, they were open. 15 Q So, for example, if you had 16 something like this that had multiple 17 folders, you might have been looking. 18 A No, I don't recall it being that 19 way. If we have just a pile of files. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: A manila folder? 21 THE WITNESS: It doesn't matter 22 since I can't tell you what they looked like. 445 1 MS. SHAPIRO: A manila folder like 2 this? 3 THE WITNESS: I mean a stack of 4 them would do, and I'll show you what I did. 5 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 6 Q Here's a few folders. 7 A Empty ones are going to be a little 8 difficult. 9 All right, assume this is the 10 drawer and the drawer is -- 11 Q We are talking about a safe now, 12 aren't we? You're in the safe? 13 A Yes, but it's a file drawer. 14 Q It's a file drawer, okay. 15 A It's a file drawer. They are 16 standing up, and they are this way, so you're 17 going through seeing where one ended, where 18 the other one began. 19 (Indicating) 20 That way. I know what I saw. 21 Q The file is that accordion folder, 22 for example? 446 1 A No, I'm not testifying to that, at 2 all. I used that as an example. You asked 3 how I, whether I was going through them. 4 Q So the files were open at the top; 5 is that correct? 6 A That's correct. Well, the ones I 7 saw were open at the top. 8 Q Your testimony, then, is that as 9 you're flipping through, looking for space, 10 you're trying to secure some National 11 Security information, correct? 12 A That was why we were at the safe on 13 that particular day. 14 Q You saw what you thought were the 15 members of the Travel Office? 16 A No, I saw the Dale file, again, and 17 I saw Chris Emory's file, or at least a 18 folder which had the same characteristics as 19 the Dale folder. 20 Q You saw these at the same time, the 21 same day? 22 A Yes, this was the same -- I don't 447 1 recall seeing the Emory file on Vince 2 Foster's desk, but this is now in the safe 3 drawer, along with several others, names I 4 don't have and didn't see. In flipping 5 through them, several of them had pieces of 6 paper with the Department of Justice seal and 7 words. 8 Q The only two names of these similar 9 looking files that you remember, Dale and 10 Emory, on that particular day? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Let me take you back for a moment 13 to the day that we are talking about the Dale 14 file, now on Vince Foster's desk. 15 This is a different day than the 16 safe day, correct? 17 A Yes, to the best of my 18 recollection, it was before. 19 Q It was before. Was it also before 20 Mr. Dale was fired? 21 A It would have had to have been, 22 because the meeting took place before he was 448 1 fired. 2 Q This was the same day as the 3 meeting, correct? 4 A The file day on Vince Foster's 5 desk? 6 Q Yes. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Let me find for a moment, let me 9 first ask you this question. If you knew for 10 a fact that what you saw on Vince Foster's 11 desk was not an FBI file, would that change 12 your opinion about other files that had the 13 same commonality with that file? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, 15 hypothetical, compound, leading. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 17 the question. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Incomprehensible. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me ask it again. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 22 Q If you knew for a fact that what 449 1 you saw on Vince Foster's desk was not an FBI 2 file, do you understand that much? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: It's a 4 hypothetical question. Accept the 5 proposition that, for purposes of this 6 question, that what you saw with Mr. Dale's 7 file. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q Was not an FBI file, even though I 10 understand that you believe that that's not 11 the case. 12 If you knew for a fact that it was 13 not an FBI file -- 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me through in 15 relevancy here as an objection. 16 THE WITNESS: No, all right. 17 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 18 Q If you knew for a fact that it was 19 not an FBI file, would that change your 20 opinion about other files that had the same 21 appearance as the Dale file, as to whether 22 those were FBI files or not? 450 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q You can answer. 4 A In the absence of other information 5 that I had in my possession, yes, with that 6 hypothetical, yes, I would be able to agree 7 with that. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just answer the 9 question. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine. 11 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 12 Q Let me direct your attention. Do 13 you have a copy of Exhibit 7, which was the 14 list that you needed your reading glasses to 15 look at last time? 16 A Uh-huh. So, what's your question? 17 Q Do you have that list? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you know what this list is, 20 other than what plaintiff's counsel has 21 represented it to be? 22 A No. 451 1 Q Can you turn to the entry for Billy 2 Ray Dale? 3 A Could you tell me what page that 4 is? 5 Q It's on page 9. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Middle of the 7 page. 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, it's highlighted, 9 uh-huh. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q If you can look to the furthest 12 column on the left. 13 A Yeah, I see that. 14 Q Under the heading "date received." 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q I'm going to represent to you that 17 "date received" means that, it means the date 18 that the FBI received a request from the 19 White House for FBI information. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: It says date 22 returned, doesn't it? 452 1 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 2 Q No. Date returned is on the far 3 right, you're not looking at the date 4 received on the far left. 5 A Okay, I see that. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, lacks 7 facts in evidence. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q You see that, correct? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q Could you read that date, please? 12 A 12/28/93. 13 Q Could you then move to the far 14 right-hand column? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q Under date returned. 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q I'll represent to you for purposes 19 now that "date returned" means the date on 20 which the FBI sent background information to 21 the White House. 22 Could you read that date? 453 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 2 facts not testified to in this case. 3 THE WITNESS: I can read the date. 4 It's 1/6/94. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just one second, 6 Ms. Shapiro, so I understand, the 7 representation with respect to that date is 8 what? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: The date returned? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: "Date returned" would 12 be the date that the FBI sent the information 13 requested back to the White House. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 15 facts not testified to. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm answering a 18 question of Counsel. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: So I'm clear, 20 "date received" is the date that the FBI, 21 based upon your representation, received a 22 request for the information? 454 1 MS. SHAPIRO: A request from the 2 White House. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: "Date returned" is 4 the date that the FBI returned the 5 information requested? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Exactly. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Perfect, thank 8 you. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q It's fair to say that 12 January 6, '94, the date this information is 13 returned, is long after Mr. Dale was fired; 14 isn't that right? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Does that change your opinion as to 17 what you saw on Mr. Foster's desk? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me before 19 she answers that question. 20 (Counsel conferred with witness) 21 MS. SHAPIRO: I trust, 22 Mr. Zaccagnini -- 455 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm not suggesting 2 an answer. We are going over what I 3 anticipated her answer was going to be, which 4 is based upon information she had already 5 related to me. 6 THE WITNESS: I understand that 7 you're representing what you believe to be 8 true. I can't accept the premise that you 9 have put forward based on what I saw and 10 other information that I had in my 11 possession. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q So you're questioning my 14 representations as to what these dates mean? 15 A Not what they mean so much as their 16 accuracy. I would not believe they complete, 17 in totality, accuracy of this list. I saw 18 files which are not on this list I believe I 19 testified to. 20 Q Uh-huh. So you have a problem with 21 the accuracy of this list, correct? 22 A I think that it may be incomplete. 456 1 Q Hypothetically, if this list were 2 correct, and the dates were as they are 3 represented here, would that change your 4 opinion as to what you saw in Mr. Foster's 5 desk with respect to the Dale file? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound, 7 leading, assumes facts not in evidence. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You might want to 9 tell her why. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: It's vague and 11 ambiguous. 12 THE WITNESS: No, I'm sorry, it 13 wouldn't. There were other things that were 14 occurring during that same time frame with 15 Billy Dale, one of which involved 16 Mrs. Clinton. So no, I would not find that 17 palatable at all to accept. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let me just take a 19 second, if I may, I want to step outside and 20 take a short break. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Off the record, 22 please. 457 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 2 at 12:47 p.m. 3 (Recess) 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 5 12:51 p.m. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Was there a question 7 pending? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If I, I just want 9 to make sure we're clear, because I 10 understand we have a rather complicated 11 hypothetical and I appreciate what you're 12 trying to accomplish. I'm not sure if 13 Ms. Tripp completely understands it. 14 But are you satisfied with the 15 response? If you want to restate the 16 question, that's fine. I'm not sure 17 Ms. Tripp completely understood the question 18 because it was kind of a compound 19 hypothetical. I just want to put that on the 20 record. I'm not going to ask you to restate 21 the question, but if you want to, that's 22 fine. 458 1 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 2 Q I'll restate the question. See if 3 you understand what it is that I was asking 4 you, Ms. Tripp, if I remember the question. 5 I think the question was that, if 6 the dates that I showed you on that list are 7 what I've represented them to be, and they 8 are accurate, would that change your opinion 9 about what you saw on Vince Foster's desk and 10 whether that file was an FBI file or not? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: That's been asked and 12 answered, and the same objection, compound, 13 leading, ambiguous and vague. 14 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 15 Q You can answer it. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Did you understand 17 the question? I think it's important that we 18 are clear on that issue. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. If I -- the 20 question is, if I accept these dates as being 21 accurate, if I accept that this list is 22 accurate information, would that change my 459 1 feeling about my belief? 2 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 3 Q Right, that's the question. 4 A I suppose yes, that would. 5 Q I'm going to move on now to the 6 safe. About how long after this day, that 7 you were in Vince Foster's office and saw the 8 Dale file, did you go in to the safe to 9 secure the National Security information for 10 Bernie Nussbaum? 11 A I don't know, except that I did 12 that relatively frequently, and so I don't 13 know on which occasion it happened to be that 14 I came across the files. It was after the 15 Vince Foster desk day. 16 Q Do you think it was a long time 17 after, a matter of days? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 19 compound. 20 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 21 Q Well I think you testified that it 22 was a matter of days. 460 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: Exactly. I don't 3 think it could have been very long after it, 4 because I'm just trying to think -- excuse 5 me? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I was just 7 clearing my throat. 8 THE WITNESS: I went on vacation, I 9 believe, the first or second week of July, 10 and it was prior to that. 11 So I think it was, if that was 12 sometime in the mid-May time frame, it would 13 have had to have been within the week or two, 14 or three, after that. 15 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 16 Q Do you remember if it was before or 17 after the time that the Travel Office 18 employees were fired? 19 A I don't know. You say that they 20 were fired or represented to me that 21 perhaps -- 22 Q May 19th, I believe, 1993. 461 1 A May 19th. I don't remember the 2 date of the Vince Foster meeting, so I don't 3 have the date of -- I can't be that specific. 4 Q I'm going to refer you to your 5 testimony and I'll give you this copy. This 6 is referring you to your earlier testimony a 7 couple of weeks ago, on page 64. 8 A 64? 9 Q Right. You described that you 10 needed to go -- 11 A Can you let me just read this? 12 Q Yes, I'm sorry, please review it. 13 A Okay. 14 Q It was your testimony that you 15 needed to secure some National Security 16 information for Mr. Nussbaum, correct, and 17 that you looked for Deb Gorham to open the 18 safe. She hadn't come back, and referring to 19 page 64, so you called Tony Marceca, he 20 wasn't able to come, then Debra Gorham comes 21 back, you go in together and you open the 22 safe, correct? 462 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, asked and 2 answered. She's already testified to that 3 under oath. What's the point? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm referring her to 5 her prior testimony. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, refer her, but 7 don't put words in her mouth. 8 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 9 Q Is that correct or not correct? 10 A I believe that's how I testified. 11 I'm reading it and it sounds remarkably the 12 same, so. 13 Q You agree with it today? 14 A I do. 15 Q Do you remember having -- 16 A May I finish? This is my 17 recollection of what happened that day. 18 Q That's fine. Do you remember 19 having a conversation with Tony Marceca that 20 day? 21 A No, actually what I remember is 22 calling Tony Marceca routinely to open the 463 1 safe. 2 Q So you don't know whether you 3 called him that day or not? 4 A No. 5 Q So this isn't necessarily accurate 6 what's written here? 7 A Oh, no, no, no, no, no, I 8 thought -- let me restate. I do remember 9 calling over for Tony Marceca. Whether I 10 spoke to him or not I don't know. He was 11 unavailable is my recollection. 12 Q Do you remember who you did speak 13 to? 14 A No, we called all the time. We 15 could never open the safe unless Debra was 16 there. 17 Q You have a specific recollection of 18 trying to reach Tony Marceca on this 19 particular day? 20 A You know, I don't know if it was -- 21 we called Tony Marceca all the time. Tony 22 Marceca didn't even come in to the picture 464 1 until well after us trying to get a hold of 2 someone in that office to come. 3 We were never able to get anyone 4 else in Craig Livingstone's office to open up 5 that safe until Tony arrived. When I think 6 of safe, I now think of Tony Marceca. He had 7 come over from the Army. I don't recall when 8 he arrived. I don't recall when he left. 9 Q Did you know him when he was at the 10 Army and you were at the Pentagon? 11 A No, uh-uh. Uh-uh. In fact, the 12 only dealings I had with him that I can 13 recall are safe-related. 14 Q You don't remember when Tony 15 Marceca started at the White House, do you? 16 A I don't, I don't. I just know that 17 there came a time when he arrived and he 18 became our safe man and that's how I think of 19 him. I think of him as the safe man. If 20 what you're telling me now is that -- 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me, Linda, 22 don't surmise into her question, just answer 465 1 the question. You've answered it. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay, I don't know 3 what else to tell you. 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q I can represent to you that Tony 6 Marceca began his work in the White House in 7 August of 1993. 8 A I agree with you, that's probably 9 true. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, facts not 11 testified to, not in evidence. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q Does that change your recollection? 14 A Only where it says I called Tony 15 Marceca. I want to be clear on one thing, 16 the day that I saw the files in the safe, I 17 called for help, whether I called for Tony or 18 someone else, it was a short time after I saw 19 them on the desk. It was clearly not August 20 of '94, because by then I had already left. 21 I have a few questions for you just to 22 clarify in my mind because now you're -- 466 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Hold on a second. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I really have to 3 ask these questions. She said he came in 4 August of '94? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me object. 6 MS. SHAPIRO: August '93. 7 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Perhaps 9 Mr. Zaccagnini will deal with that. 10 Let me just represent that you 11 should not take what Ms. Shapiro says as 12 being true. 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, great. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll instruct my 15 client accordingly, but go ahead, 16 Ms. Shapiro, ask the next question. 17 THE WITNESS: Are we clear, though, 18 you said August of '93? 19 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 20 Q So your testimony is you're 21 probably mistaken when you mention Tony 22 Marceca here; it's not that this happened in 467 1 August or sometime after that? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 3 compound, incomprehensible. This is turning 4 into a real circus, Ms. Shapiro. Do you make 5 up facts whenever you feel like it? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: It's almost lunch 7 time, do you want to break for lunch or 8 finish this? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let's break for 10 lunch and we'll come back and revisit this. 11 (Whereupon, at 1:00 p.m., a 12 luncheon recess was taken.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 468 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (2:15 p.m.) 3 Whereupon, 4 LINDA R. TRIPP 5 was recalled as a witness and, having been 6 previously duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified further as follows: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 9 FBI AND EOP CONTINUED 10 MS. SHAPIRO: We had a question 11 pending. If the court reporter can read the 12 question, please. 13 (The reporter read the record as 14 requested.) 15 THE WITNESS: I think I want to 16 clarify. I routinely called; there came a 17 point in time where I or Betsy Pond routinely 18 called Tony Marceca, because it was that 19 office's decision to have Tony Marceca be the 20 point of contact for the state. 21 Prior to that, when I or Betsy Pond 22 called over, someone else came to, and what I 469 1 believe I testified to in reviewing my 2 testimony is that I called, and he was not 3 available. Well, clearly on this day I 4 called, and whomever I was calling was not 5 available to come. 6 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 7 Q It's not correct that you asked for 8 Tony Marceca? You probably asked for 9 whomever was there; is that right? 10 A Yeah, I think my recollection is 11 that since I saw Associate Tony Marceca 12 repetitively with opening the safe, that in 13 my recollection for this particular meeting, 14 I misspoke when I named Tony Marceca. 15 Q Going back to the safe, you 16 testified that you saw a file marked Dale and 17 that you also saw a file with the name Emory; 18 is that correct? 19 A I saw a file with -- and I don't 20 recall seeing just Emory. I think I saw more 21 on his. 22 Q You did see a file with the name 470 1 Emory? 2 A I saw more than that on his. 3 Q More? 4 A In other words, it wasn't just the 5 name Emory. It was enough to make me 6 immediately recognize it as the usher. 7 Q Tell me everything you saw with 8 respect to Emory. 9 A I don't remember. I just remember, 10 knowing in my mind, and you can dispute that, 11 that this was the usher, and I don't know, 12 and I have no recollection of when he was let 13 go, so I don't know the timing of that. 14 Q The day that you saw the file was 15 the same day that you saw the Dale file, 16 correct, in the safe? 17 A Yes. 18 Q We placed in time that the day that 19 you're in the safe is some days after you 20 were in Vince Foster's office and saw the 21 Dale file on Vince Foster's desk; is that 22 right? 471 1 A Yeah, I would say within a period 2 of a few weeks. 3 Q We are talking sometime perhaps at 4 the end of May of 1993? 5 A I don't know, because I don't know 6 the date that the meeting took place that I 7 was referencing earlier. 8 Q Was it a compilation of files that 9 you saw with the name Emory or a single file? 10 A I don't know that I spent a lot of 11 time looking at what it was so much as it was 12 one that I was leafing through and, in my 13 mind, at least to my satisfaction, registered 14 the usher, and that was one of the ones that 15 had the Justice seal. 16 Q Do you remember it being thick or 17 thin? 18 A I don't have a memory of it. 19 Q Do you remember that there was a 20 file called Bill Kennedy in there? Correct? 21 A No, I don't -- yes, there was a 22 Kennedy file, and no, I don't remember seeing 472 1 the name. I was told that was the Kennedy 2 file. 3 Q We'll get back to that in a moment. 4 It struck you when you saw the name Emory 5 that it was Emory the White House usher; is 6 that right? 7 A Whatever I saw led me to believe 8 that, yes. 9 Q Was it what you saw? Was it 10 something other than the outside of the file, 11 or was it something that you saw on the 12 inside of the file? 13 A As I sit here, I believe it was 14 something I saw inside. 15 Q Inside the file. Do you remember 16 anything about what you saw inside the file? 17 A No, I just don't have -- I can tell 18 you that was my impression at the time. 19 Q Did this file look like the Dale 20 file? 21 A To the best of my recollection, it 22 was one of several that all looked alike. 473 1 Q All looked alike? 2 A Like the Dale file, yes. 3 Q You testified a couple weeks ago 4 that the Emory file made an impression on 5 you, because shortly after you saw it, 6 Mr. Emory was dismissed; is that right? 7 A I'm not sure if it was shortly 8 after or shortly before. I just know that it 9 made an impression on me in terms of it being 10 the usher. 11 Q Did you know Mr. Emory personally? 12 A Did I know him? I'm sorry. 13 Q Did you know him personally? 14 A I knew him professionally in a very 15 peripheral way. He was in the residence, and 16 on occasion, if there was a need to hand 17 carry something over to the President, often 18 it was Mr. Emory that we handed it to. 19 Q Let me just refer you one more time 20 to Exhibit 7 to your deposition, which is the 21 FBI list. This list is alphabetical. Can 22 you find Chris Emory's name on this list? 474 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, the list 2 speaks for itself. 3 THE WITNESS: No. There is -- no, 4 uh-uh. 5 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 6 Q Do you know when Chris Emory was 7 fired? 8 A I don't. 9 Q If I told you that it was in March 10 of 1994, does that sound correct? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. The 13 only thing I'd like to add to this, maybe to 14 make you understand or at least make my 15 position a little more understandable is that 16 in the beginning of the Clinton 17 Administration, when the Correspondence 18 Office was summarily dismissed, that 19 immediately, because of the way it was done, 20 more than anything, set up flags to those of 21 us who were considered apolitical, but who 22 still served at the pleasure of the 475 1 President. 2 So anytime we saw anything having 3 to do with those of us who were considered or 4 had been considered in the past permanent 5 staff made an impression. 6 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 7 Q It made an impression, but not 8 enough of an impression so that you remember 9 anything about what the file looks like? 10 A I don't know that I at the time 11 thought of any ominous significance in terms 12 of the file, because I don't think I thought 13 that even this Administration could do 14 anything so completely unethical. I've since 15 revised my thinking. 16 Q You testified that you also saw a 17 file that you subsequently learned was a file 18 about Bill Kennedy, correct? 19 A There was a thick file which I was 20 told by several people was Bill Kennedy's 21 file. 22 Q Did you see that file on the same 476 1 day that you saw the Emory file and the Dale 2 file? 3 A I saw Bill Kennedy's file on more 4 than one occasion. I can't be specific as to 5 whether it was in there that day. I tend to 6 think so, but I'm not positive. 7 Q Did that file look like the Dale 8 file and the Emory file? 9 A No. 10 Q It looked completely different? 11 A It didn't look like the stacks and 12 stacks. 13 Q Do you remember anything at all 14 about what -- 15 A It was very fat, very thick. 16 Q Other than being fat, can you 17 remember anything about what it looked like? 18 A I don't remember seeing his name. 19 I remember being told that that's what it 20 was, and it was taking up space. 21 Q You don't remember a color, for 22 example? 477 1 A I don't. I also know that I asked, 2 but was never told why we had it. I believe 3 at one point an explanation was given about 4 nanny taxes or something. 5 Q If you were to learn that that file 6 was an FBI file, would that change your 7 opinion as to files that looked different 8 from that file, as to whether those are FBI 9 files? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound, 11 at least five different parts. It's leading, 12 and it's a hypothetical. Assumes facts not 13 in evidence. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 15 the question? 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Vague. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't have a 19 problem answering that. 20 Yeah, I mean, look, I have no idea 21 if the stacks and stacks of files that I 22 presumed to be FBI files were, in fact, FBI 478 1 files. They could very well have been hit 2 files put together. 3 Since I saw Justice letterhead and 4 pieces of paper in some of them, I have made 5 my own assumptions. Could very well have 6 been the White House's compilation of raw 7 data or any other form of information they 8 chose to get on people for whom they should 9 not have had files. I don't know that these 10 were raw data FBI files, nor did I know that 11 about Bill Kennedy's. 12 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 13 Q Nor do you know that it wasn't 14 something that you simply don't have 15 knowledge about, correct? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 17 facts not in evidence, compound, leading. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 19 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 20 Q Let me turn for a moment to your 21 testimony about the Privacy Act. 22 You testified that when you were in 479 1 the Bush White House, it was commonly 2 understood that the Privacy Act applied; is 3 that correct? 4 A I think my testimony was that as a 5 federal civil servant, since the inception of 6 the Privacy Act or the enactment of the 7 Privacy Act, it has always been something to 8 which we've all been made painfully aware. 9 I don't know that people understand 10 necessarily the intricacies. I know I don't, 11 but I believe that we are all familiar with 12 the fact that constraints exist. 13 Q Was that your experience in the 14 Bush White House? 15 A I'm trying to think whether I had 16 any access to information that would have 17 been considered covered by the Privacy Act. 18 I'm not sure I did. 19 Q Did anyone ever tell you in the 20 Bush White House that the Privacy Act 21 applied, and you should do this, that or the 22 other in order to meet its requirements? 480 1 A I'm trying to think whether, as I 2 said, I had any reason to have access to 3 information that would have been covered by 4 the Privacy Act. 5 Q You don't remember anybody 6 addressing it with you? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let her answer 8 the question. 9 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 10 Q I'm sorry; you can answer the 11 question. 12 A I believe, if I'm not mistaken, 13 that it was covered in a course some of us 14 took, having to do with the Detroit-based 15 payroll database system. 16 Q What part of the Bush White House 17 were you in specifically? 18 A Different times I was in different 19 offices. 20 Q Tell me each of the offices that 21 you were in while you worked in the Bush 22 White House. 481 1 A Several. Office of media affairs, 2 media relations, several days in Mrs. Bush's 3 office. The greatest period of time was 4 media affairs and the Office of the Chief of 5 Staff to the President. 6 Q When you came over to the Clinton 7 White House, were there discussions about the 8 Privacy Act and its application, that you 9 remember? 10 A In what way? What do you mean? 11 Q Did somebody tell you, for example, 12 that you need to do X, Y or Z in order to 13 make sure that you meet Privacy Act 14 requirements? 15 A Well, it was certainly addressed in 16 the Counsel's Office. I don't recall that 17 being covered in the President's Office. 18 Q How was it addressed in the 19 Counsel's Office? 20 A This was one of the things I 21 discussed with Vince Foster and, again, with 22 Steve Neuwirth. We would have many, many 482 1 requests for information, either through the 2 mail or telephonically, and so -- 3 Q I'm sorry, finish your answer. 4 A This was one of the topics 5 discussed when the offer was first presented 6 to me in terms of areas. 7 Q The offer of your employment in the 8 Counsel's Office? 9 A Right. 10 Q Have you read the Privacy Act? 11 A I have no recollection right now of 12 what it says. I more or less vaguely 13 remember the statement that we included on 14 pertinent pieces of paper in the Department 15 of Defense, so I don't know that I would have 16 more information than that right now. 17 I think most civil servants have a 18 working knowledge, as I believe I did, which 19 would be not to release or disseminate 20 information of a personal nature without 21 clearance. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Can we go off the 483 1 record for just one moment? I'm having 2 trouble locating something. 3 (Recess) 4 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 5 Q You're not a lawyer, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Are you familiar with the 8 regulation published at 49 Federal 9 Register 23234? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you have a copy 11 with you? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, I do. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Okay. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll mark. We can 16 call it EOP Exhibit 1. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you're 18 representing more than EOP; aren't you? 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, but I don't 20 think we could list everybody we represent on 21 there. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Who are you 484 1 representing? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: The EOP, the FBI and 3 the United States. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't we just 5 make them consecutive, okay? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Make it Exhibit 9. 8 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 9 9 was marked for identification.) 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q I've handed you a copy of 49 12 Federal Register 23234 as it appeared during 13 the Reagan/Bush administrations. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to that 15 clarification. No facts in evidence. 16 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 17 Q Just let me know when you're done 18 reviewing it. 19 A Do you want me to read the whole 20 thing? 21 Q No, no, I just wanted you to 22 familiarize yourself enough to know whether 485 1 you're familiar with the regulation. 2 A I wouldn't say I'm familiar with it 3 by looking at it, but. 4 Q Can you read the sentence that I've 5 highlighted on this exhibit, please? 6 A "Records of the White House Office 7 and the Counsel of Economic Advisors are not, 8 however, subject to the Privacy Act." 9 Q Does that change your opinion at 10 all as to whether you believe the Privacy Act 11 applied? 12 A No, uh-uh. 13 Q I'm going to go back for a moment 14 to your testimony this morning. You 15 testified that Joel Klein kept files on, I 16 think you described it as adversaries, but if 17 I'm wrong, correct me. 18 A That would be accurate. 19 Q You also testified that you didn't 20 have very much substantive interaction with 21 Mr. Klein, correct? 22 A I didn't work for him, and he 486 1 didn't supervise me, so other than very close 2 proximity to both he and his assistant, no. 3 Q How is it that you observed these 4 files that you spoke about this morning? 5 A Did I say I observed them? I don't 6 think I did. 7 Q How did you learn about them? 8 A He actually spoke rather openly, 9 often in conversations in which he would 10 denigrate Mr. Nussbaum rather openly and his 11 secretary. His secretary would sort of 12 follow up on things. When we would hear Joel 13 say something, I would ask Julie, I think her 14 name was, to what he was referring, and she 15 would tell us. She was very open. 16 Q Is it your testimony that he would 17 talk about files on people that he kept? 18 A No, no, no, no. 19 Q No? 20 A No, no, no. 21 Q Tell me what it is that you would 22 hear. 487 1 A I'm trying to think of a specific 2 to give you. For instance, Bernie Nussbaum 3 went to some sort of legal gathering out of 4 state. He was very hesitant to go, due to 5 the timing, but it was a commitment he had 6 made, I believe, to speak. I think he was to 7 be a keynote speaker, and I'm thinking it was 8 somewhere out west. 9 Joel Klein was already in place, 10 and certain things had happened, I believe, 11 that caused some tension in the office having 12 to do with the way that Joel attacked the 13 White Water problem, as it was referred to 14 back then. 15 One day a meeting with many people 16 adjourned, and as they all came out of Joel 17 Klein's office, he made reference to these 18 folks who were leaving about how we are all 19 good lawyers. That's understood, but it's 20 clear from what's happened to Mr. Nussbaum -- 21 and he didn't refer to him as Mr. Nussbaum -- 22 that in order to survive, we have to be good 488 1 politicians too. 2 In that conversation, he made 3 reference to ensuring that he had 4 information, and he intimated that it was 5 also on Mr. Nussbaum. 6 Q Did you understand Mr. Nussbaum to 7 be an adversary? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think she's 9 finished her response. 10 BY MS. SHAPIRO: 11 Q Have you finished your response? 12 A No, not really. This was not the 13 only time that I heard Mr. Klein make 14 reference to information about others. One 15 time was prior to and after what came to be 16 referred to as the Pink Sweater Press 17 Conference that they worked very hard 18 prepping Mrs. Clinton for. 19 I remember when they came back, he 20 jumped in the air, and whooped and said we 21 nailed it, and then in that same 22 conversation, he made reference again to 489 1 information on others. 2 Q Did he specify who the others were? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you perceive Bernie Nussbaum to 5 be an adversary of Joel Klein? 6 A What I perceived from what I was 7 seeing and what I spoke to Bruce Lindsay 8 about was that Joel Klein perceived Bernie 9 Nussbaum to possibly be, if not an adversary, 10 then an affliction, something with which they 11 had to deal. 12 Q You heard these things, but you 13 never observed files or documentation, 14 correct? 15 A I don't know that I ever saw files. 16 What I saw was in -- no, let me correct that. 17 In speaking to his assistant, and I wish, do 18 we have her name anywhere? Does anyone? 19 All right, I can't remember her 20 name. I think it was Julie. She, on more 21 than one occasion, led me to believe that 22 this is how he operated, that he maintained 490 1 information in files on others on -- she 2 didn't use the word adversaries, and I can't 3 remember what word she used. 4 She also led me to believe that 5 during the Pink Sweater Conference that the 6 people who are now in the Office of the 7 Independent Counsel, and I don't know what it 8 was called back then, and if it, I don't know 9 the timing, were considered enemies, so. 10 That was reinforced when I was 11 interviewed by them several times thereafter, 12 and it caused a great deal of concern with 13 Mr. Klein. It was shortly after that that I 14 was asked to leave. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm just going to 16 take one minute to see if I'm wrapped up. 17 Let's go off the record for a moment, please. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 19 at 2:39 p.m. 20 (Recess) 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 22 2:54 p.m. 491 1 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 2 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Tripp. My 3 name, just for the record, is Jim Gilligan. 4 I'm also with the Department of Justice, 5 representing the White House, the FBI and the 6 United States in this matter. 7 I'd like to ask you a few questions 8 as well, beginning with your testimony this 9 morning about the Rose law firm billing 10 records; do you recall that? 11 A I do. 12 Q Do I recall your testimony 13 correctly that you believe you saw the Rose 14 billing records in Mr. Foster's safe on the 15 same day that you saw the Dale file? 16 A That's my recollection. I could be 17 wrong. I know that what I saw on the screen 18 was what I believe I saw in the safe. 19 Q If you are correct about the day, 20 that would have been sometime in May of 1993, 21 correct? 22 A Again, I'm hesitant to date it. 492 1 Q You saw the Dale file about the 2 time of the Travel Office firings, correct? 3 A I'm not sure of the timing of the 4 meeting, so following, it could have been 5 following the firing. I'm not sure. 6 Q The firing was in May of 1993, 7 correct? 8 A So you have told -- your co-counsel 9 has told me. 10 Q Could you describe for us the safe 11 that you saw the billing records in? 12 A I really can't describe today what 13 the two file cabinets that locked looked 14 like, except that they were relatively short, 15 and I believe fit under a slanted draftsman 16 type table on the side wall of Mr. Nussbaum's 17 office. 18 Q Was this a cabinet that had two 19 drawers that pulled out? 20 A They were. 21 Q One under the other? 22 A They were short safes with front 493 1 opening drawers. 2 Q Did these drawers have hanging 3 files inside? 4 A I don't know that they hung. I 5 know that they were vertically upright, and 6 actually, I don't recall ever opening the 7 second one that looked much the same on the 8 exterior. 9 Q The second safe or the second 10 drawer? 11 A Second safe. I really don't recall 12 two drawers in the first one. I just 13 remember it opening, and the files were this 14 way (indicating). 15 Q Where within the safe did you see 16 the billing records? 17 A Somewhere in the drawer. I don't 18 recall with any specificity where I saw them, 19 except in that drawer where I was going 20 through, and I don't recall having any clue 21 what they were at the time, except that there 22 was something, during the time that I saw it, 494 1 and it was very brief, that made me believe 2 it belonged to Mrs. Clinton and, thus, Vince, 3 but I don't know what that was. 4 Q Do you remember actually handling 5 them? 6 A I don't believe I handled them at 7 all. 8 Q To the best of your recollection, 9 can you tell me what they looked like? 10 A The only thing I can tell you with 11 any certainty is that, and again, this is 12 only my impression, my impression was that 13 they looked just like what was up on the 14 screen on the news show. 15 Q Would it be more accurate to say 16 that when you saw them on the news show, your 17 impression was that what you saw on the TV 18 was like what you had seen in the drawer? 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 20 the question? 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm sorry; I 22 thought that's what I had said. I'm sorry. 495 1 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 2 Q Understandably you find the kinds 3 of questions I'm about to ask tedious, but 4 nevertheless, the circumstances require me to 5 ask them. 6 Do you remember anything about the 7 color? 8 A Oh, I don't. 9 Q About the size paper? 10 A I just remember thinking there were 11 folds. 12 Q Like computer paper? 13 A I don't remember. I remember 14 thinking folds. Again, these are just my 15 impressions. I am not in a position to tell 16 you that what I saw on the screen was what 17 was in the safe. 18 Q Let's talk for a moment about what 19 you saw on the screen. Can you recollect for 20 us when that was? 21 A No, I'm sorry; I can't. It was 22 after they were found. 496 1 Q Is what you saw a news report about 2 the discovery of the billing records? 3 A I believe it was some sort of 4 coverage about billing records, and all I 5 remember is seeing this on the screen this 6 way, lines, and thinking what I thought, what 7 I've already testified to. It's not 8 something I had seen elsewhere. Maybe I 9 should be more clear. 10 Q You made the connection because 11 what you saw on the screen looked like what 12 you recollected seeing in the safe drawer, 13 but that you had not seen elsewhere? 14 A Yeah, my personal framework of 15 reference was no exposure to anything that 16 looked like that. 17 So having seen it in what I 18 perceived to be Bernie's safe, even though it 19 was used by Vince Foster, and I had no idea 20 what it was, except some associate citing, 21 that made me think of Vince, further 22 associating it with what I saw on the screen 497 1 made me think that that's what I had seen. 2 Q To the best that we've been able to 3 determine, the discovery of the billing 4 records occurred in early January of 1996. 5 Does that help refresh your recollection of 6 when you saw them on TV? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection to putting 8 facts not in evidence in front of the 9 witness. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, all I remember 11 is that I was certainly no longer at the 12 White House, and I believe I was at the 13 Pentagon; so I would certainly take your word 14 for the timing. 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q When is the first time that you 17 ever told anyone under any circumstances 18 about this impression of yours? 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Other than 20 counsel? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Other than counsel. 22 THE WITNESS: I believe at the time 498 1 that I saw it on TV. 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q Whom did you tell it to? 4 A Several people. 5 Q Do you remember who they were? 6 A I don't. 7 Q Were they friends of yours? 8 A May well have even been co-workers 9 at the Pentagon. I just don't remember. I 10 don't remember if I even knew Monica Lewinsky 11 then. I don't know that -- I just don't 12 remember. 13 I remember thinking, oh, that's 14 what those things are, but I don't remember 15 to whom I spoke. I know I spoke of it, not 16 widely. 17 Q What I'd like next to talk to you 18 about, Ms. Tripp, is your observation of 19 stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's office. One 20 moment. 21 One last question about the billing 22 records occurs to me. Were they in a folder 499 1 of any kind? 2 A You know, I don't know, because -- 3 the way I leafed through them, I can just 4 tell you that my impression was that what I 5 saw looked like what was on the screen, or 6 vice versa, and I don't know, they could very 7 well have been in a folder. There were 8 folders in the safe. 9 Q Were you at home when you saw them 10 on TV? 11 A I don't remember. We had a TV in 12 the office as well. So I don't, I don't 13 remember. I remember being very surprised at 14 what I saw. 15 Q All right, let's talk about stacks 16 of files in Mr. Kennedy's office. 17 Now Mr. Kennedy's office was within 18 a suite of offices, correct? 19 A Well, his was the largest office; 20 that was the destination. There was a 21 reception suite for clerical support, and, I 22 believe, there were little cubbys off of 500 1 that, as well. I don't know if there was 2 another one on the other end. I never went 3 down that far. 4 Q In the reception area, who sat 5 there, as far as you can recollect? 6 A There was a young man whose name I 7 don't recall, and Betsy Pond or Debra Gorham 8 or whomever came before. I don't know anyone 9 else. I don't remember. I went to see 10 either Deb or Betsy or Bill. 11 Q As you walked in to the front door, 12 can we call it a suite, are you comfortable 13 with that term? 14 A Sure. 15 Q As you walked in the main door of 16 the suite, where was Ms. Pond's desk located? 17 A To your immediate left. 18 Q Where was Mr. Kennedy's personal 19 office, to the left or to the right? 20 A Actually to the rear of Betsy's 21 area, and if you were going left or right, it 22 would be to the left. 501 1 Q Other than the desk occupied by 2 Ms. Pond and this other gentleman, what other 3 matter of furniture was there in the 4 reception area? 5 A Other than desks? 6 Q Yes. 7 A A couple chairs, desks. I mean, it 8 was office. 9 Q Were there cabinets of any kind? 10 A There may well have been. It was a 11 very tight area. There was a little, between 12 Betsy's area and the door into Mr. Kennedy's 13 office, it seems as though there was a little 14 cubby of some sort, and I just remember a lot 15 of congestion. I don't remember what the 16 congestion was. 17 Q Were there any safes of any kind in 18 the reception area or this cubby leading to 19 Mr. Kennedy's office? 20 A I don't know. I remember 21 tightness. 22 Q If there were any cabinets, or 502 1 safes or what have you in this reception 2 area, do you have any knowledge of any of 3 their contents? 4 A No. 5 Q Did anybody ever tell you what they 6 contained, as far as you can recall? 7 A What what contained? 8 Q Any of the cabinets or safes in the 9 outer reception area? 10 A I don't recall there being any; so 11 we wouldn't have discussed. There may well 12 have been; I just don't recall, and I don't 13 recall having a conversation about it. 14 Q If you were standing then, say, 15 next to the desk that Ms. Pond sat at when 16 she sat there, would you be able to see into 17 Mr. Kennedy's office from there? 18 A As I recall, Betsy could have faced 19 one of two ways, neither of which would have 20 been facing Mr. Kennedy's office if you were 21 seated at her desk. 22 If you were inputting computer data 503 1 as she frequently was, she would be facing 2 the wall directly opposite and away from his 3 desk. If she turned to the left, she would 4 more or less be welcoming someone entering 5 the suite. 6 Q If she turned to her left? 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q Suppose you were standing next to 9 her desk, say, you yourself visiting. 10 A Well, you mean just coming right in 11 the door? 12 Q Suppose you came right in the door. 13 You said her desk was immediately to the 14 left; is that correct? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q Suppose you were standing right in 17 front of her desk and chatting with her. 18 A Well, there's no room to stand 19 right there, because that's where the door 20 was; so you would have to actually enter in 21 to the suite, and if you wanted to talk to 22 her, you'd end up being behind her chair, so 504 1 to speak, sort of, almost in the cubby. 2 Q Would you be able to see into 3 Mr. Kennedy's office from there? 4 A If the door were open, yes. 5 Q What would you be able to see? 6 A I don't remember now. I mean, my 7 sense is you could see into his office. In 8 fact, I know I was able to see into his 9 office. 10 Q You've testified that you've 11 actually been in Mr. Kennedy's personal 12 office, as opposed to the suite? 13 A A couple, two or three times, yes, 14 at least. 15 Q Can you describe the physical 16 layout of Mr. Kennedy's personal office, as 17 best you can recall? 18 A I can give you my impressions. 19 Q Sure. 20 A I seem to remember a fireplace, 21 surrounding mantle to the right, flush 22 against the wall. I remember more than one 505 1 table, and I remember his desk being centered 2 facing the mantle and surround. It seems as 3 though there were several tables. I remember 4 photographs of his children on the mantle and 5 lots and lots and lots of file folders. 6 Q Do you recall there being any file 7 cabinets or safes anywhere inside his office? 8 A I didn't recall that until I 9 skimmed his testimony, and I saw that he 10 testified that there were such. I don't 11 recall those. 12 Q Do you have any recollection, as 13 you walked into Mr. Kennedy's personal 14 office, to your left being any sort of a 15 small alcove or cubby of any kind? 16 A Vaguely, actually. I don't know 17 why. But not the same as the cubby in front 18 of it. 19 Q I understand. I understand. Do 20 you have any recollection of whether down 21 this, shall we call it the interior cubby I 22 just mentioned, there were any cabinets or 506 1 safes of any kind? 2 A I don't remember. I have this 3 overwhelming memory of stacks of whatever 4 they were. 5 Q To the extent you may have 6 observed, when Mr. Kennedy was working in his 7 office, did he keep the door to his personal 8 office open or closed? 9 A Well, I don't know that I observed 10 it enough to really give you an accurate 11 assessment of how he kept his door. 12 On the few times that I was over 13 there, for the most part, and I can't tell 14 you that he was in or out of the office 15 during these times, because I really never 16 made note of it, generally speaking, when I 17 was over there, his door was open. 18 Q You didn't make note generally of 19 whether he was actually in there or not at 20 the time? 21 A I don't think I actually made note, 22 and I don't know that I asked Betsy either; 507 1 so I just don't remember. I -- well. 2 Q Go ahead, please. 3 A Well, I don't know, depending on 4 where I was standing, whether I even would 5 have seen him at his desk if he had been at 6 his desk. 7 Q Depending on where you were 8 standing, you might not have been able to see 9 the desk? 10 A Right. 11 Q Could you tell us, please, what 12 your understanding of Mr. Kennedy's job 13 duties as Associate White House Counsel were? 14 A Well, for the longest time, it 15 seemed, at least in the beginning, my 16 understanding had been, and it was explained 17 to me actually, when we had to compile a 18 Chief of Staff memo for areas of 19 responsibility for the ever-growing Counsel's 20 Office staff, I believe he was in charge of 21 vetting. There came a time when he was 22 removed from vetting, and I don't recall at 508 1 this point what it was he was assigned to. 2 There seemed to be some contention over the 3 change in the job duties. 4 Q When you used the term vetting, can 5 you explain to me what your understanding of 6 that term is? 7 A Well, only in terms of usage in 8 what we, how we used the term in the White 9 House at that time. It was the review of 10 pertinent materials in an effort to ascertain 11 or determine a person's suitability for 12 political appointment within the 13 Administration. 14 Q Generally speaking, what were the 15 pertinent materials that were reviewed, as 16 you understood it? 17 A I don't know firsthand, except some 18 of the things that Mr. Foster showed me as it 19 pertained to one of the Supreme Court 20 Justices now. 21 Q Did it involve -- and I'd like to 22 caution you; I'm asking for absolutely no 509 1 specifics or names here, but just general 2 categories -- was there tax information? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Financial information? 5 A Yes. 6 Q What other kinds of information can 7 you recall along those lines? 8 A Well, you just happened to hit on 9 the two that Mr. Foster showed me, as it 10 pertained to someone else, so. 11 Q Good enough. Regarding your use of 12 the phrase political appointment, what 13 positions did you understand the vetting 14 process to involve? 15 A Well, at the time, I believe I 16 understood it to be senior level 17 appointments, not necessarily Senate 18 confirmation only, but far more senior than I 19 would have been. 20 Q Supreme Court Justices being an 21 example? 22 A Yes. 510 1 Q Cabinet Secretaries being another 2 example? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What other kind of examples would 5 you give? 6 A I think I would say the next couple 7 of rungs down from those you've just named. 8 Q Such as Assistant Secretaries? 9 A I believe so. 10 Q What about White House staff? 11 A White House staff, meaning? 12 Q Anyone at any level who worked in 13 the White House? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q What about senior executive service 16 positions? Did it involve those? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Did it involve various boards and 19 commissions that the President had 20 established? 21 A Yes. 22 Q This may come back to the occasion 511 1 you mentioned with Mr. Foster just a moment 2 ago, but have you ever seen the contents of a 3 vetting file? And please, no names or 4 specifics. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and 6 ambiguous, lacks foundation. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it. 8 Don't use any names. 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q You may answer it. 11 A I've seen some things from a couple 12 of high profile vetting files. 13 Q How do you know that the files you 14 saw this information from were so-called 15 vetting files? 16 A Well, they were described to me 17 that way. 18 Q By? 19 A Mr. Foster. Excuse me, on the one. 20 Q On the one? 21 A Yes. The other one, we were 22 getting it ready for -- it was a later, far 512 1 later time, getting it ready for a senior 2 Counsel's Office staff member to make a 3 flight out to meet with a prospective -- 4 Q Nominee? 5 A Nominee, and we were adding -- we 6 were assisting in getting him out very 7 quickly, and the assistant told me what we 8 were doing. This was kind of a rush. 9 Q Was the reference to a vetting file 10 the file you were compiling for the senior 11 White House Counsel member to take with him 12 or her? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading. 14 THE WITNESS: Well, it existed 15 already, and we were just putting copies of 16 things in it. 17 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 18 Q Other than putting copies of things 19 in this file, you don't know where this file 20 originated; do you? 21 A Well, I was told that it came from 22 Bill Kennedy's office. 513 1 Q Do you have any recollection of 2 what that file folder looked like? 3 A Well, as I've said before, it 4 didn't look like the other ones, but I'm sure 5 you don't think that means anything. 6 Q The circumstances require me, and 7 again, I know you find this tedious. No one 8 else does, of course. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Ask her how she 10 really finds it, Mr. Gilligan. The word may 11 not be tedious. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: It's a good enough 13 one for me. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q This file that you were adding 16 documents to, do you remember anything about 17 its color? 18 A Thick, this one was thick. 19 Q You remember it was thick. How 20 thick? 21 A Pretty thick. 22 Q An inch thick? 514 1 A It seemed thicker. 2 Q Thicker than an inch? 3 A It seemed real thick. 4 Q Two inches, three inches? 5 A I'm not real good at estimating 6 size. It just seemed fat. 7 Q I've just handed you, the video 8 camera will show, a ruler. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that in 10 centimeters or inches? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: It's both. It's 12 both. Fair question, it's both. 13 THE WITNESS: First of all, this 14 was a long time ago. I would say 15 conservatively speaking, it was to about here 16 (indicating). Do you want to read this? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I would estimate 18 that to be exactly four centimeters or an 19 inch and one half. 20 THE WITNESS: Gee, is that all that 21 is? See, I told you I was bad at estimating. 22 It was about that thick. I just remember 515 1 thinking it seemed like a lot of information. 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q Other than the documents that you 4 put into that file or assisted in putting 5 into that file, do you have any notion of 6 what its contents were? 7 A Only what I was told, personal 8 information on this individual. That was 9 different from the other one. 10 Q How was it different? 11 A The other one I knew precisely what 12 it was I had in my hands, because I was 13 dealing with this other issue, where this one 14 was merely helping them get him out the door 15 to go meet with this prospective nominee. 16 Q Let's talk about, then, the Foster 17 one. 18 Mr. Foster showed you tax 19 information, and I'm sorry, what else was it 20 from this file? 21 A Well, you had asked me whether it 22 included financial or tax information. 516 1 Q Right, right. 2 A It did; this one did. 3 Q Mr. Foster told you that? 4 A Well, he handed me some things. 5 Q He told you that these were from 6 the vetting file? 7 A Yes, and what to do with them. 8 Q Did he actually tell you that this 9 is so and so's vetting file? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did he tell you that he had 12 acquired it from Mr. Kennedy? 13 A Actually, what he -- how he had 14 acquired the things that I had in my hand, he 15 had actually traveled to this individual's 16 location. 17 Q Mr. Foster had? 18 A Yeah. Met with this individual and 19 brought back, it was my understanding, 20 brought back some of this information, and 21 after he had done what he needed to do with 22 it, he wanted me to return the originals to a 517 1 member of that individual's family. I don't 2 think we want to go any further on this. 3 Q No, I'm not encouraging you to. 4 Please don't, at least with respect to the 5 rest of my questions in that regard. 6 Did you see the file that 7 Mr. Foster maintained these documents in? 8 A I did. 9 Q Did Mr. Foster tell you that was 10 the vetting file on this individual? 11 A Well, he told me that he was taking 12 this material from the file that was being 13 used to vet this individual. 14 Q I'm sorry. I'm confused, because I 15 thought you said the material had come from 16 the individual himself. 17 A Right. But Mr. Foster traveled 18 back to the White House and had materials 19 with him for the file. He then copied the 20 material and gave me back the originals. 21 Q The copies were put in the vetting 22 file? 518 1 A Yes, and the originals were 2 returned. I was to return them. 3 Q Right, and my question is, did you 4 see the file that Mr. Foster put them in? 5 A He had in his arm, under his arm a 6 folder with sides that he took out this 7 thing, it's not -- it wasn't paper; it was 8 other materials, and, well, it was paper, but 9 it wasn't looseleaf paper, and instructed me 10 what to do with that, and I believe we had an 11 MFR, a memo for the record together, I think 12 he -- no, it was a receipt; it was a receipt. 13 He told me, when I said do we need 14 copies, he said no, I've got them here in the 15 whatever file, and I don't remember how he 16 referenced it. I understood it to mean this 17 gentleman's vetting file. 18 Q You're not clear exactly how he 19 referenced the file? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever see him return this 22 file to Mr. Kennedy? 519 1 A I don't remember that, no. He may 2 well have. 3 Q You don't know? 4 A No, I don't remember if Mr. Kennedy 5 had accompanied him on that trip. He may 6 well have. 7 Q Other than these two occasions, do 8 you have any recollection of ever seeing a 9 vetting file? 10 A On another failed Cabinet 11 appointment, I saw a vetting file. 12 Q Did somebody tell you that this was 13 this individual's vetting file? 14 A Yes -- well, I think there's 15 another word that's used, and I may be using 16 vetting inappropriately, but it meant 17 vetting. 18 Q What's the other word? 19 A If I knew it, I would be using it. 20 But, yes, it was stated. It wasn't -- I 21 didn't surmise this. 22 Q You saw the file that that 520 1 reference was being made to on this occasion? 2 A The contents of the file. 3 Q Did you see the file folder itself? 4 A Yes, but I -- not enough to say it 5 was a yellow legal file. Remember that I've 6 testified that the one that I spoke of just 7 prior to the one I'm speaking of now had 8 sides to it. 9 Q Had sides to it like a box? 10 A No, a file folder with sides, 11 things wouldn't slide out. 12 Q Like an accordion folder? 13 A Something. It had sides. I don't 14 remember specifically more than that. 15 Q In terms of seeing vetting files, 16 you also recalled seeing Mr. Inman's file; 17 did you not? 18 A That was the one to which I 19 referred about getting Mr. Klein ready for a 20 flight. 21 Q We all know that Mr. Inman was 22 nominated for Secretary of Defense, correct? 521 1 A He was. 2 Q Let's talk about that for a moment. 3 You testified that it was during 4 the vetting of Mr. Inman for his nomination 5 to Secretary of Defense that you first became 6 familiar with and began to notice vetting 7 files; do you recall testifying to that? 8 A Well, I think that I paid more 9 attention during that time frame. I was 10 interested in defense anyway. I was more 11 exposed, because this particular process on 12 Mr. Inman seemed to center around the West 13 Wing office of the Counsel's Office, as 14 opposed to over in Bill Kennedy's area. 15 Q Is it fair to say then, that it's 16 your observations in dealings with this file, 17 that is the way that you gained your 18 familiarity with what you understand a 19 vetting file to be? 20 A No, no. I think I had seen vetting 21 files prior to that. Bill Kennedy frequently 22 had vetting files that he brought over when 522 1 he was summoned for meetings with Bernie, 2 specifically on vetting issues. 3 There were a couple of failed 4 vetting files for Cabinet level secretaries 5 that didn't make it that were in and around 6 the office in Bernie's area long after their 7 nominations had fallen through. 8 So, yeah, I had seen them. I 9 didn't, certainly, go through them or study 10 them. 11 Q Right. I'll refer you to page 197 12 of the transcript from December 14th. 13 A Okay. 14 Q Do you see beginning on line 2? 15 A Right, uh-huh. 16 Q Is it still your testimony, then, 17 that it's in connection with Mr. Inman's file 18 that you began noticing and paying more 19 attention to vetting files than you had the 20 previous months? 21 A Well, as I said, Mr. Inman's case 22 was handled very visibly in the West Wing 523 1 Counsel's Office, so I was exposed to it a 2 great deal, but I had certainly seen other 3 files and equally high profile. I don't know 4 that I had paid much attention prior to that. 5 Q Let's talk about the Inman file 6 specifically. Do you recall when Mr. Inman 7 was under consideration for the post at the 8 Defense Department? 9 A It was definitely during Joel 10 Klein's tenure. 11 Q Does December of 1993 sound about 12 right? 13 A Well, that's when Joel Klein came 14 on, I believe. 15 Q Joel Klein had come on as Deputy 16 White House Counsel, correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q He was at that time occupying 19 Mr. Foster's old office? 20 A Correct. 21 Q Pardon me if I'm being repetitive 22 here, but I just want to make sure the record 524 1 is clear. Do you recall anything about the 2 color of this file? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you recall anything about any 5 writing of any kind on the outside of the 6 file? 7 A No. 8 Q Did it have Mr. Inman's name on it? 9 A I do believe I saw his name. I 10 don't know whether it was inside, or if it 11 was on some of the things that we placed in 12 there. 13 Q Was it handwritten? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q Is this the file you said that was 16 about an inch and a half thick? 17 A It seemed thick, that thick, yes. 18 Q Other than the documents that you 19 put in it, did you ever see the contents of 20 this file? 21 A When we put them in, I remember it 22 was open, but I don't recall what was in 525 1 there. I mean, this was during one of the 2 times that his assistant made a comment to me 3 to let me know that Joel Klein seemed to 4 gather information on people. So you don't 5 want to get on his bad side kind of thing. 6 Q Again, pardon me if I'm being 7 repetitive here, but other than the documents 8 that you placed in this file, do you know who 9 prepared it? 10 A I really didn't place. I was 11 assisting this person, and I don't even know 12 if it was she on that particular date. I 13 believe it was, though. 14 Q Julie? 15 A I think so. Because it was at that 16 desk, I remember it being at Deb Gorham's old 17 desk where we were putting stuff together in 18 the file, because it was going with Mr. Klein 19 onto the plane, and it sticks in my mind 20 because there had been so much controversy in 21 the office about him, and we no sooner got 22 him on the plane that we literally had to 526 1 call the airline and pull him off the plane 2 as it taxied down the runway, and I think 3 what had happened was that Mr. Inman withdrew 4 as he was flying out to Denver. So that one 5 sticks in my mind. 6 Q What I was trying to get at, 7 though, is do you know who prepared the file 8 other than your involvement? 9 A It came out of Joel Klein's office. 10 I don't know who prepared it. 11 Q Do you know where it was stored 12 when it was not in use? 13 A I don't. 14 Q I take it you saw Mr. Klein leave 15 with this file? 16 A I believe his assistant or someone 17 in that role that day placed it in his 18 briefcase. 19 Q Other than that, did you ever see 20 it leave the West Wing suite? 21 A I don't have a recollection of it 22 going back and forth. 527 1 Q Did you ever see this file in 2 Mr. Kennedy's office? 3 A I don't recall seeing it there, no. 4 Q Or in Mr. Kennedy's possession? 5 A I just don't remember if it was or 6 it wasn't. I don't know that Mr. Klein kept 7 custody of it. I don't know that. 8 Q Is it fair to say that, as far as 9 you know, this could well have been a file 10 that Mr. Klein separately maintained on the 11 Inman nomination, apart from his vetting 12 file? 13 A Was the question, is it possible? 14 Q Yes. 15 A I suppose so. 16 Q Did you ever see files that looked 17 like the Inman file in Mr. Kennedy's office? 18 A I think I saw more files that 19 looked like that in Beth Nolan's office. 20 Q Again, pardon the question, but is 21 there any way you can tell me how the Inman 22 file differed in appearance from the files 528 1 you saw stacked up in Mr. Kennedy's office? 2 A It looked completely different to 3 me. There were oodles of the others and the 4 vetting files that I perceived, and let me 5 not misspeak. The files I thought were 6 vetting files and to which were referred by 7 others as vetting files looked different, and 8 I only recall seeing those in the various 9 instances I've testified to earlier today and 10 in Beth Nolan's area. Cathy Whelan's area. 11 Q You say the files in Kennedy's 12 office looked completely different from the 13 vetting files? 14 A To me. 15 Q To you, I understand. 16 A To me. 17 Q I'm sorry; I'm going to take 18 another crack at it here. Is there any way 19 you can tell me specifically how they 20 differed, one type from the other? 21 A No, I mean, I don't know how to be 22 more specific than that. I'm afraid to say 529 1 anything that is not completely accurate for 2 fear that it won't be completely accurate. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse us one 4 second. 5 (Counsel conferred with witness) 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One thing she 7 wands to add to her testimony. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Sure. 9 THE WITNESS: I was told that I 10 also saw a vetting file, relatively thick 11 vetting file, on a since confirmed senior 12 Cabinet official when I was working down in 13 the Oval Office, Immediate Office of the 14 President, and so I'm pretty confident that 15 those that I've testified to earlier as being 16 vetting files were what were referred to as 17 vetting files during that time period. 18 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 19 Q Can you describe in any way, shape 20 or form the vetting files you believe you saw 21 in Ms. Nolan's office? 22 A They weren't remarkably alike as 530 1 the other ones were, in my opinion, that the 2 ones that I, in my mind, believed to be FBI 3 files were remarkably alike. 4 The ones that I saw in Beth Nolan's 5 office and in Cathy Whelan's area were 6 reminiscent to me of the ones that I really 7 would choose not to name right now, but were 8 senior Administration officials that had been 9 identified for me as vetting files. 10 Q How often did you see these files 11 in Ms. Nolan's office? 12 A It seems to me that I saw them more 13 frequently later, and I think it was because, 14 if I'm not mistaken, she later took vetting, 15 and I'm not clear on that. I think, I 16 believe she took over vetting when 17 Mr. Kennedy had his nanny tax problem or 18 something. 19 Q In any event, after Mr. Kennedy no 20 longer had responsibility for that process? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Where was her office located? 531 1 A Also on that floor, the same floor 2 as Mr. Kennedy's, and very close by, 3 actually. 4 Q You were not personally involved in 5 the vetting process; were you? 6 A Well, I was drawn into it a couple 7 of times, exposed to material that I would 8 consider to be private. 9 Q Such as you've already testified 10 to? 11 A Other times, yeah, but not -- was 12 that part of my job description? Is that 13 what you're saying? 14 Q Right. 15 A Well, no, but obviously, I was 16 exposed to it. 17 Q Is it fair to say that your 18 impression of the vetting process is based on 19 what others have told you? 20 A I'm not sure I understand. I mean, 21 I certainly drew some conclusions based on 22 some of the things I was asked to do. 532 1 Q You were not routinely involved in 2 vetting matters? 3 A No, no, no, uh-uh. 4 Q You would have no way of being 5 confident that your understanding of the 6 process is accurate or complete; would you? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's a leading 8 question, in case you didn't know. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me object to that 10 too. Thank you, Mr. Zaccagnini. I was 11 falling asleep. 12 THE WITNESS: You're falling 13 asleep? Your question is, would I have any 14 way of knowing -- 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q Your exposure to the vetting 17 process was limited, correct? 18 A I don't know how limited you can be 19 when you sit where we sat, and we were privy 20 to just a great deal of information and 21 interaction about a subject that was very 22 sensitive having to do with the vetting of 533 1 Judges. 2 The Administration was taking a 3 great big hit for not taking advantage of the 4 many slots that they were allowed to fill. 5 Vetting was a very high profile issue in our 6 office; so did I have daily contact with 7 vetting files and issues? No. But was I 8 exposed to the subject and on some levels to 9 the level of detail that would be less than 10 desirable? Yeah. I mean, I was exposed to 11 quite a bit on that issue. 12 Q The point is, the nuts and bolts of 13 the vetting process were not part of your 14 day-to-day job description; is that correct? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 16 vague and ambiguous in terms of these nuts 17 and bolts. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it. 19 THE WITNESS: I didn't vet people. 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q You were not exposed on a daily 22 basis to the vetting process as it operated 534 1 in Mr. Kennedy's office; were you? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 3 THE WITNESS: I wasn't exposed to 4 the vetting process in Mr. Kennedy's office. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q Can you recall in terms of seeing 7 stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's office when 8 was the first time? 9 A I don't know. You can read back 10 what I've said before, which is about as, 11 probably as accurate as I can get. 12 Q You said page 176, if you care to 13 look with your counsel, that it was early on. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't you let her 15 look? 16 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 17 Q Let me approach it this way. Let's 18 talk about your conversation with Mr. Kennedy 19 where you say he indicated that the stacks of 20 files were not vetting files. 21 You said, I believe, at page 176 22 that this conversation occurred early on? 535 1 A Uh-huh. 2 Q Can you be more specific than early 3 on? 4 A Well, it had to have been when I 5 was in the Counsel's Office, and I just 6 remember, Bill Kennedy was getting a lot of 7 flak on different issues, one of which was 8 the completely cumbersome and slow moving 9 vetting process. 10 So relatively early on when I was 11 over there, the first time I noticed the 12 stacks and stacks of files, I was astounded 13 and had a new appreciation for why the 14 vetting process was so completely cumbersome. 15 But his hand movement and 16 indication to me was that that's not what I 17 was looking at; so I can't be more specific. 18 This isn't something I spent a great deal of 19 time taking notes about. 20 Q Right. 21 A His indication to me was that this 22 wasn't what was keeping him up late. 536 1 Q You testified at page 180 of the 2 transcript that this conversation occurred 3 before the time of Mr. Inman's nomination. 4 A Mr. Inman, remember, I said, was 5 during Mr. Klein's tenure. Klein didn't show 6 up until December. 7 Q Right. 8 A So to the best of my knowledge 9 anyway, I believe it was December of '93. 10 Q The conversation with Mr. Kennedy 11 would have occurred before December of 1993 12 then? 13 A The first one having to do with 14 vetting, yes, certainly. 15 Q In terms of benchmarks, and it's an 16 unfortunate one, but do you recall whether 17 Mr. Foster was still alive at the time? 18 A It seems to me that he was. 19 Q This would have been prior to 20 July 20, 1993? 21 A Yeah, and I think that sort of goes 22 with my early on thing. 537 1 Now I can't tell you that the day 2 that I asked him about the files, thinking 3 they were vetting files, if that day there 4 were 800 or 2,000 files in there. There were 5 many. 6 It seems over time -- and I'll say 7 this, over time, the files never diminished. 8 In fact, they grew, even after he had long 9 since stopped, or at least it was my 10 impression, he had long since stopped being 11 involved in vetting, so. 12 Q Do I understand correctly that the 13 day you had the conversation with Mr. Kennedy 14 about the stacks of files, that was not the 15 first time you had noted the stacks of files; 16 is that right? 17 A I'm very unclear as to what day I 18 had this conversation with Bill Kennedy. I 19 just know that I remember thinking no wonder 20 he's so behind. There's no way any one 21 person or a staff, tiny staff, could possibly 22 make headway. It's no wonder. 538 1 But I just don't know when the 2 first time I saw the files, or the day this 3 took place. I just don't know. It didn't 4 seem all that important at the time. 5 Q Let's focus on the conversation 6 then. You testified, and this is at page 179 7 of the transcript, that you asked, are these 8 files of those yet to be vetted, or those in 9 the midst of being vetted? Are those the 10 precise words you used, as best you can 11 recall? 12 A I have no clue what the precise 13 words are. It's a general idea, I believe. 14 Q Do you specifically recall using 15 the term vetting? 16 A I believe that's the word I've 17 always used when it comes to what I perceived 18 vetting to be and what I thought his area of 19 responsibility was. 20 Q Is it possible you used another 21 term like political appointments? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for 539 1 speculation. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so. 3 Remember, I perceived, because of my unique 4 sort of vantage point, I thought of everyone 5 but the permanent support staff as political. 6 So it would have been unlikely for me to say 7 that. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q At page 179 of the transcript, you 10 testified that he said in response to your 11 question, these aren't those; they are over 12 there. 13 Again, are those the precise words 14 he used? 15 A I doubt seriously these are the 16 precise words he used. I never intended this 17 to be verbatim. It was my impression of sort 18 of an overview of the conversation. 19 Q Do you have any recollection of the 20 precise words he used? 21 A Well, I think these are as close to 22 what I can recall. 540 1 Q You said he pointed in the 2 direction of Beth Nolan's office? 3 A Toward that way, past the 4 fireplace, down that way. That was my 5 perception at the time. 6 Q He may have been pointing at, for 7 all you know, he may have been pointing at 8 something in the outer reception area of the 9 suite; is that fair to say? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for 11 speculation, leading. 12 THE WITNESS: For all I know. 13 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 14 Q You say he pointed towards the 15 fireplace? 16 A Over that way. 17 Q Over that way was Beth Nolan's 18 office? 19 A You know, I am very uncomfortable 20 giving this level of detail to the minutia 21 of -- and I know this is very important, but 22 it's also very important that I not overstate 541 1 or read in all these years later to a 2 conversation that I didn't really at the time 3 think was all that critical. 4 So, I've attempted to be as 5 forthright and as forthcoming as I can be, 6 but when you dissect every single little 7 word, I can't be more clearer than I've been, 8 without stretching my mind to the point of 9 embellishment, which I refuse to do, so. 10 Q I understand your frustration, 11 Ms. Tripp. I've witnessed it with other 12 witnesses. It's the unfortunate nature of 13 this situation. 14 Now again, certainly I don't want 15 you to embellish, at the time of this 16 conversation, do you recall there being any 17 files in Mr. Kennedy's office other than 18 these stacks of files? 19 A Yes, there were other files. I 20 don't recall if those happened to be the ones 21 he pointed at that moment, but there were 22 certainly other files. He had tables, as 542 1 well as floor space, that were all covered. 2 Q I can only go by what the written 3 transcript says of our last session. You 4 asked Mr. Kennedy, at least as best you can 5 recall, whether these were files of people in 6 the middle of the vetting process, and he 7 said no. 8 Is it possible that these were 9 files in the stacks of people who had 10 completed the vetting process? 11 A Well, actually, what I remember 12 from that, the genesis of that conversation 13 was, is this what's holding you up? Is this 14 what is the cause of all the frustration, you 15 know, all these many, many files that you 16 have to work through? My understanding of 17 his question -- of the answer to that 18 question is no; this isn't that stuff. 19 Q These files are not what's holding 20 him up? 21 A In other words, we were speaking of 22 the vetting process, and my understanding 543 1 what he said at that time was no; these are 2 not; that's those over there. 3 Q These are not what? I'm sorry. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Did he say 5 anything other than these are not, to the 6 best of your recollection? 7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember how 8 specific he got. Maybe I misunderstood. I'm 9 just telling you what I got from the 10 conversation. 11 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 12 Q Are you familiar with the various 13 steps in the vetting process? 14 A No, not enough to speak to it 15 knowledgeably. Background, that kind of 16 thing. 17 Q You would be unaware then if there 18 was some earlier step in the vetting process 19 that was somehow holding up the completion of 20 later steps in the vetting process? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading, 22 lacks foundation, asked and answered. 544 1 THE WITNESS: No. I say I am aware 2 of that very same scenario happening 3 repeatedly. It was discussed at length. 4 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 5 Q Is it also within the realm of 6 possibility that these stacks of files that 7 you were talking about political 8 appointments, as you understood the term, 9 might have been files of, say, senior 10 executive service personnel? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks 12 foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 14 don't know. Can I add that I think that my 15 personal knowledge of the vetting process was 16 only what I had been exposed to on a 17 permanent level, and so the people for 18 whom -- I think that the only people that I 19 was exposed to, the files or the nature of 20 the vetting process on a personal level was 21 maybe six or seven very senior high profile 22 nominees. 545 1 So, whether he was doing SES -- oh, 2 and several judges. If he and his staff were 3 vetting SES folks or, you know, the Assistant 4 Secretary level, they very well could have 5 been, and I would not have been exposed to 6 that information. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Is this a perfect 8 place to break? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes, rather than 10 starting something new. I'll let it go. 11 Just a moment, though. Let me confer with 12 Mr. Gaffney. 13 Off the record for just a moment. 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 15 at 3:55 p.m. 16 (Recess) 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 18 3:56 p.m. 19 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 20 Q Just a couple of questions 21 regarding the Rose billing records have 22 occurred to me again, Ms. Tripp. 546 1 Pardon me if I've already asked you 2 this. Do you have any recollection as to how 3 thick these billing records were? 4 A I remember folded. 5 Q Folded, okay. 6 A He's going to give me this again. 7 Q Take the ruler. 8 A I don't think measurably thick. I 9 didn't have that impression that these were, 10 in fact, what I thought they were. I had an 11 impression of folded, like folded. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Like computer 13 paper folded? 14 THE WITNESS: Almost like a 15 newspaper folded. 16 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 17 Q Or a computer printout folded over? 18 A Something folded. I don't think it 19 was Xerox paper, though. 20 Q If you unfolded it, would you have 21 any notion of how thick it was unfolded? 22 A No. 547 1 Q Not even with the assistance of 2 our -- 3 A I don't think so. I really didn't, 4 again, think a lot about it at the time. 5 Q Can you recall with any specificity 6 what it was that made you associate these 7 documents with Mrs. Clinton? 8 A Mrs. Clinton. Yeah -- 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One second. 10 (Counsel conferred with witness) 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the 12 conference of the witness and her counsel 13 with the question pending. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Actually, I'm just 15 helping clarify her response and maybe 16 provide you more information, but your 17 objection is noted. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection is. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: As long as we are 20 objecting, Mr. Gaffney, I just want to note 21 for the record that you've been passing notes 22 to Mr. Gilligan about this issue. 548 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Is that an objection, 2 Mr. Klayman? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: No, just note it for 4 the record. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q Go ahead. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The question was 8 again, I'm sorry? 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q What was it about these documents 11 that you associated them with Mrs. Clinton? 12 A I don't know now if the initials, 13 or whether it was something having to do with 14 the actual Rose law firm that separated it 15 from Vince or Bill Kennedy, but something 16 made me think Mrs. Clinton and Vince Foster 17 that I saw, and I don't know what that was. 18 I don't know if it was her initials or some 19 notation; I don't know. It was quick. 20 Q You really don't know what that 21 notation was at this point? 22 A No, no. The graphic that I saw 549 1 didn't necessarily mirror what I saw. It 2 looked very like it, and I had never seen, to 3 this day, I have never seen anything that 4 looks so much like it. 5 Q That graphic being the graphic on 6 the television? 7 A Right. 8 Q Sometime later. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Another note from 10 Mr. Gaffney. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Is that an objection, 12 Mr. Klayman? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I just wanted to be 14 able to show the close cooperation between 15 counsel for Mrs. Clinton and the Justice 16 Department. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Co-defendants 18 assisting one another, now that is a -- 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, they are 20 actually meeting. They are conferring. 21 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 22 Q Other than the people you say you 550 1 mentioned this to earlier in the day, 2 Ms. Tripp, can you recollect anyone else that 3 you ever mentioned this event to, other than 4 to counsel? 5 A I was never asked in a legal 6 proceeding about this, under oath or in any 7 other way, if that's your question. 8 Q Aside from not being asked, did you 9 ever tell anyone else? 10 A I don't remember the timing, so I'm 11 not sure. It's quite possible I could have 12 mentioned it to someone else, and it would 13 depend on the timing of when I first made the 14 connection on TV and in the paper, I believe. 15 That could have very well been during the 16 time that I was speaking to Lucy Ann 17 Goldberg, but I'm not just sure of the time 18 frame. 19 Q Are you saying you may or may not 20 have told this to Ms. Goldberg? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Assuming it was January of '96, 551 1 would you have told this to Ms. Goldberg; do 2 you think? 3 A I have to think of when we cut off 4 communication. Can I confer, because I don't 5 know when the book came out? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just based upon 7 your recollection, that's the best way to do 8 it. 9 THE WITNESS: I can't; I just can't 10 remember at this point. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: That's it for the -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just ask 13 Ms. Tripp -- 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Wait a minute, no. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not a question. 16 It was pending, and I asked you if you could 17 remember the name of the Washington Post 18 editor that was in contact? 19 THE WITNESS: I haven't had two 20 seconds to even think about it. I'll sit 21 home tonight and see what I can do. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 552 1 MS. WEISMANN: 10:00 on the 13th? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Off the record. 3 (Discussion off the record) 4 (Whereupon, at 4:02 p.m., the 5 deposition of LINDA R. TRIPP was 6 continued.) 7 * * * * * 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ??