554 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 ---------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs, : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2163 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 3 ---------------------------x 9 Washington, D.C. 10 Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11 12 Continued deposition of 13 LINDA R. TRIPP 14 a witness, recalled for examination by 15 counsel for Defendants, pursuant to notice 16 and agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 1:34 p.m., at the law offices 18 of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street 19 Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Monica A. 20 Voorhees, notary public in and for the 21 District of Columbia, when were present on 22 behalf of the respective parties: 555 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 10 ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 15 Investigation: 16 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 556 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE MARCIE ZIEGLER, ESQUIRE 4 Williams & Connolly 725 Twelfth Street Northwest 5 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5000 6 7 On behalf of The White House: 8 MICHELLE M. PETERSON, ESQUIRE Associate Counsel to the President 9 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 10 (202) 456-7804 11 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 12 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE 13 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 51 West 52nd Street 14 New York, New York 10019-6618 (212) 403-1000 15 16 On behalf of the Office of the Independent Counsel: 17 JOSEPH M. DITKOFF, ESQUIRE 18 RICHARD C. KILLOUGH, ESQUIRE Office of Independent Counsel 19 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest, Suite 490 North 20 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-8688 21 22 557 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Deponent: 3 ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE 4 Semmes Bowen & Semmes 250 West Pratt Street 5 Baltimore, Maryland 21201 (410) 385-3935 6 7 8 * * * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 558 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Defendant FBI and EOP 559 4 Counsel for Defendant Hillary Rodham 621 Clinton 5 Counsel for Defendant Nussbaum 751 6 Counsel for Plaintiffs 758 7 8 TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 9 No. 10 - Senate Housing Committee Meeting, 629 Excerpt 10 No. 11 - Goldberg Transcript, Tape 001 693 11 No. 12 - Goldberg Transcript, Tape 002 720 12 No. 13 - Transcript, Meet The Press 727 13 No. 14 - Page 4-5 of Exhibit 13 729 14 No. 15 - Report 302 733 15 No. 16 - Transcript, Office of the 741 16 Independent Counsel 17 No. 17 - Deposition of William Kennedy 777 18 19 20 * * * * * 21 22 559 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 LINDA R. TRIPP 4 was recalled as a witness and, having been 5 previously duly sworn, was examined and 6 testified further as follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 8 FBI and EOP 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Tripp. You 11 understand, I take it, that you're still 12 under oath? 13 A Good afternoon. Yes, I do. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Before we do that, 15 can we see if there's anybody at this 16 deposition who wasn't at the first two 17 sessions. 18 MR. KILLOUGH: Rick Killough from 19 the Office of Independent Counsel. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry, the name? 21 MR. KILLOUGH: Rick Killough. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: How's that spelled? 560 1 MR. KILLOUGH: K-i-l-l-o-u-g-h. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have a title? 3 MR. KILLOUGH: Assistant 4 Independent Counsel. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Okay. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it Ms. Paxton, 7 she was at the first session on 8 December 14th. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Was not at the 10 second session. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: But was not at the 12 second. That's the only other change. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: As far as I know. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q Ms. Tripp, before we got started 16 here about 1:30, you were having lunch in 17 Mr. Klayman's conference room; is that 18 correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q Was Mr. Klayman in the conference 21 room, as well? 22 A He was. 561 1 Q Were you having any sort of 2 discussion with Mr. Klayman? 3 A He asked me questions and I 4 answered. 5 Q What questions did he ask you? 6 A Let me see if I can remember all of 7 them. He asked me if I had looked at the, 8 what were represented to me as being the Rose 9 law firm billing records. I said I had. 10 He asked if that refreshed my 11 memory; I said it looked like what I had seen 12 in the safe. He asked me about Betsy Pond 13 and if I believed that she would testify 14 truthfully if deposed. I said no, I didn't, 15 based on representations Betsy had made to me 16 when she assisted me in obtaining counsel 17 in 1994 -- 199 -- let me think. 1994. 18 He asked me some other questions, 19 as well. I can't remember what they were, 20 I'm sorry. 21 Q Do you recall any other information 22 you gave to Mr. Klayman? 562 1 A There were other questions I 2 answered, yes. They are just not coming to 3 me. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy to 5 volunteer it, if you'd like. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Please do. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked you about The 8 Washington Post, if you remembered the name 9 of the editor or editors you had identified 10 earlier as having given heads up to the White 11 House. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. Shall I 13 just -- from there tell you what I told him 14 in response to that question? 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q Sure. 17 A I told him I had no independent 18 recollection of names. I remember there 19 being two individuals, both of whom were men, 20 and that when he suggested the name Downing, 21 it rang a bell simply because I recall during 22 that time frame hearing the name Downing from 563 1 Bruce Lindsay in conversations in our office, 2 in the Office of General Counsel, and not 3 being familiar with that name from The 4 Washington Post, but hearing it in 5 conjunction with The Washington Post and 6 actually thinking in terms of a television 7 personality, which is why it rings a bell. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me stop there, 9 did I mention -- 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You asked me to help. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm not done. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: I didn't ask you to 14 interrupt the witness during her testimony, 15 Mr. Klayman. 16 THE WITNESS: May I finish? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Please. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't we just 19 let her answer the question. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: That's my goal. 21 THE WITNESS: During that time he 22 asked me if the name Bill Hamilton, husband 564 1 of Jane Mayer, rang a bell, and I told him it 2 did not. I wouldn't preclude it from being 3 true at that time because there was another 4 name that I heard routinely associated with 5 The Washington Post heads up to Bruce 6 Lindsay, but I can't testify that that was 7 the name. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q Did you tell Mr. Klayman what these 10 representations were that Ms. Pond made to 11 you? 12 A I don't believe so. I don't think 13 we got into detail about that. I'd be happy 14 to do so, if you'd like me to. 15 Q I'll stick that one in my back 16 pocket for the moment. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Let's talk, instead, about just 19 briefly some more about stacks of files in 20 Mr. Kennedy's office. 21 At any given time, how many of 22 these stacks did you see in Mr. Kennedy's 565 1 office? 2 A Look, I'm trying to be completely 3 honest and forthright and forthcoming with 4 you, but I'm telling you that it's been six 5 years. I can only give you my impression. 6 My impression was that the files 7 didn't seem to change over time in terms of 8 the size of the stacks. There seemed to be 9 stacks both on the floor and on a table or 10 two. 11 Q Were there 10 stacks or more? 12 A I've testified before that 13 quantifying amounts is difficult for me. I 14 will tell you that it seemed overwhelming, it 15 seemed an overwhelming number of files. 16 Q Other than Ms. Pond, who we'll come 17 to in a little bit, who else in the White 18 House did you ever discuss the many stacks of 19 files in Mr. Kennedy's office with? 20 A With Debra Gorham. 21 Q Anyone else? 22 A Bill Kennedy. 566 1 Q As you've testified to? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How about outside the White House? 4 Did you ever mention them to anybody outside 5 the White House? 6 A I believe I've testified that I 7 discussed those with Tony Snow and may have 8 discussed this with Lucianne Goldberg. In 9 fact, I'm quite certain I did, in 1996. 10 Q Can you tell me about your 11 conversation with Ms. Gorham on this subject? 12 A Again, I don't think it was 13 significant. It was during the time that Deb 14 Gorham was reassigned to Bill Kennedy, was 15 sitting outside and was entering data into 16 the computer. 17 Now she did not identify those 18 files as FBI files for me, but we did discuss 19 the stacks of files and she was entering data 20 in to the computer where she sat in front of 21 Bill Kennedy's office. 22 Q So far as the stacks of files in 567 1 Mr. Kennedy's office were concerned, were 2 there any markings on these files to suggest 3 to you that they were FBI files? 4 A Again, in terms of on the outside 5 of files, I saw nothing. 6 Q Did you ever see the contents of 7 any of these files? 8 A The only thing I recall seeing are 9 names in some fashion on the files. 10 Q On the file jackets? 11 A Yeah, and I have no independent 12 recollection today as to whether any of them 13 were face up or not. I believe I saw a 14 handful on his desk open that looked similar, 15 but, no, the contents at that time I would 16 not have seen. 17 Q Did anyone ever tell you what they 18 supposedly contained? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered. 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q You may answer. 22 A I'm sorry, at what point? 568 1 Q Ever. 2 A Well, only the time that I spoke 3 with Betsy Pond. 4 Q Now on the occasions when you 5 observed names on the files, were these 6 occasions when you were in Mr. Kennedy's 7 personal office having a conversation with 8 Mr. Kennedy? 9 A I don't believe I was ever in 10 Mr. Kennedy's office when I was not having a 11 conversation with Mr. Kennedy. So -- 12 Q So the answer is yes? 13 A I believe it would be yes. You're 14 asking me to -- again, recall something that 15 was six years ago. I can tell you that I 16 don't recall being in his office without him. 17 Q Are these conversations where you 18 would be standing up shooting the breeze with 19 him, do you recall being seated anywhere? 20 A I think it would depend. There 21 were several times that I just chatted with 22 Bill and then there were other times when I 569 1 actually went to see him on a mission, on 2 a -- so, I think it would depend on whether I 3 was seated or not on the occasion. 4 If I were there to say hello for 5 two seconds, I probably wouldn't have been 6 seated. 7 Q You say the files were about hip 8 high, the stacks, that is to say? 9 A Some of them were, yes, those that 10 were on the floor. 11 Q Do I understand correctly then that 12 while you were having conversation with 13 Mr. Kennedy, you were somehow able to 14 nevertheless look down at the floor in the 15 middle of the conversation and somehow see 16 the names on the file? 17 A I don't know how to make you 18 understand this. The entire room was stacks 19 of files, on the tables, on the floor, on a 20 table behind his desk, on a table on the side 21 of his desk, all around the perimeter of the 22 room. Files were everywhere, and they were, 570 1 I'm not sure where you would have stood or 2 have been seated where you would not have 3 seen stacks of files. 4 Q Yes, but in terms of seeing the 5 names on a file folder tab at the top of one 6 of the stacks. 7 A Uh-huh, right. 8 Q Were you while you were having a 9 conversation with Mr. Kennedy able to stare 10 down at the top of a stack and see the name? 11 A I don't know, I don't know, I can't 12 tell you today how I saw names. I'm not sure 13 that I ever just saw only one file on one 14 stack. I know that that's my impression now 15 in retrospect, but I'm not sure that's true. 16 It might have been three, it might have been 17 three. I saw names. 18 Q Now you left the White House 19 Counsel's Office in approximately May 20 of 1994; is that correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Did you have occasion to be in 571 1 Mr. Kennedy's office after your service in 2 Counsel's Office had ended? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What occasion was that? 5 A Let me correct that, not 6 necessarily Mr. Kennedy's office, but that 7 suite. 8 Q Well, let me redirect your 9 attention then to Mr. Kennedy's personal 10 office. 11 A Okay, I don't recall being there 12 after. I may have. I had discussions which 13 involved correspondence between my then 14 attorney and Joel Klein and Neil Eggleston 15 and I may well have spoken to Bill Kennedy 16 about that subject during that time frame. 17 Q How long after your service in the 18 Counsel's Office had ended did that occur? 19 A Well, I was still carried on paper 20 in the Counsel's Office until I left. I was 21 still a Counsel's Office assignee, I guess 22 you would say. 572 1 Q Well, speaking de facto, if not 2 officially? 3 A Again, I can't tell you the time 4 frame, except it would have been between May 5 and August. 6 Q You made reference to seeing a file 7 in Mr. Kennedy's office with Congressman or 8 what you believed to be Congressman's 9 Clinger's name on it? 10 A I think I said the name Clinger. 11 Q The name Clinger, that's fine. Let 12 me get to the nub of it. Can you describe 13 this file with any greater specificity than 14 you've been able to describe other files that 15 we've been talking about during the course of 16 the deposition? 17 A In terms of what it looked like? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No. 20 Q Did you ever see the contents of 21 this file? 22 A No. 573 1 Q Did anyone ever tell you what was 2 in it? 3 A No. 4 Q Did anyone ever tell you that it 5 was his FBI file? 6 A No. 7 Q Did it say that it was an FBI file 8 on the outside? 9 A It did not. 10 Q Let's talk about your conversations 11 with Ms. Pond. 12 I believe you said the first 13 conversation, where she indicated that the 14 files stacked on Mr. Kennedy's office floor 15 were FBI files, occurred after she had been 16 transferred to the OEOB, correct? 17 A Well, yes, because it was when she 18 was assigned to Bill Kennedy. 19 Q Her transfer you testified was 20 sometime between December of 1993 and 21 January 1994, correct? 22 A Well, I've tried to remember more 574 1 specifically. I know that Betsy was still in 2 the West Wing Counsel's Office when Joel 3 Klein arrived and that was, to the best of my 4 recollection, December of '93. 5 In January of '94, with the 6 escalation of what was Whitewater coverage in 7 the media, during a very intense period, the 8 situation with Betsy also escalated. 9 So, I went away for a few days and 10 when I came back, the situation had been 11 resolved and she was either en route or had 12 moved to the old EOB, so I'm thinking it was 13 closer to the end of January. 14 Q On the occasion, then, where you 15 and Ms. Pond discussed FBI files, did you 16 tell me why were you there in the OEOB suite 17 on that occasion? 18 A I can't tell you. 19 Q Was it routine business or was it 20 something out of the ordinary that you can 21 recall? 22 A I don't remember at this point. 575 1 Q Was it commonplace when you came to 2 the OEOB for you and Ms. Pond to chat, to 3 converse? 4 A There was an element of strain 5 between us at that point. We weren't 6 particularly close at that point, but it 7 wasn't uncommon for us to continue to speak, 8 certainly, and she still worked for my boss, 9 so there was often a need to talk. 10 Then also I think an attempt on my 11 part, at least, and I think on Betsy's, to 12 try to get beyond the issue that had brought 13 her across to the old EOB to begin with. 14 Q Would you talk shop, as they say, 15 talk about the job, job-related subjects in 16 general? 17 A I really, I don't remember now 18 today what Betsy and I talked about 19 routinely. There was dissatisfaction on 20 Betsy's part, what I remember today, in her 21 move, number one, and in the types of 22 assignments she was being given, number two. 576 1 She didn't feel it reflected the promotion 2 her salary increase should have reflected 3 when she moved. 4 Q At the time you and Ms. Pond had 5 the conversation about the stacks of files in 6 Mr. Kennedy's office, do you recall who else 7 was present in the office at that time? 8 A I have no distinct recollection of 9 who was present. I know there were usually 10 people around, though. Betsy did not have a 11 private area. 12 Q Right. But you can't recall 13 specifically anybody who was there at the 14 time? 15 A No. No. At the time, I mean at 16 the time that all this was becoming of -- a 17 piece to me, the significance really wasn't, 18 wasn't glaringly obvious to me. It wasn't 19 transparent at that point. 20 I have since come to believe 21 otherwise. At the time I don't know that I 22 did. I began to be more cognizant, perhaps, 577 1 but I hadn't developed the same level of fear 2 that I developed later on. 3 Q You testified on December 14th when 4 Mr. Klayman asked you how did she identify 5 them as FBI files, you responded she said 6 those are FBI files. I asked the question. 7 Can you recall for me as best you 8 can exactly what question it is you asked of 9 Ms. Pond? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: First, Ms. Tripp, 11 do you recall that testimony or would you 12 like to read it? 13 THE WITNESS: I recall it. I 14 think -- I think I'd like him to read it so 15 that I can respond accurately, but I think I 16 know what part this was. This had to do with 17 Betsy complaining, I believe. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: It's page 84, starting 19 at line 2. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Thanks. 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 578 1 Q So you see where you said, I asked 2 the question. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Again, to the best of your 5 recollection, what precisely is the question 6 that you asked? 7 A I don't remember precisely what I 8 asked. I think I asked what are all these 9 stacks, what are all these things. They were 10 complaining completely on a daily basis that 11 the vetting was just not happening. It was 12 not happening with judges, it wasn't 13 happening with senior appointments. 14 Betsy was complaining about 15 inputting data. I believe on our second 16 conversation she referenced the inputting of 17 data and the fact that it was a lowly 18 clerical sort of tedious thing to do. 19 She treated it in a confidential 20 tone of voice as opposed to something open 21 and above board, but it wasn't, at the time 22 didn't strike me as one way or the other 579 1 covert or not. 2 I think it was mainly the numbers, 3 the shear numbers that would have made me 4 ask, and I figured Betsy would tell me. 5 Q You testified, at page 84, she said 6 those are FBI files. 7 Again I'm asking you, were those 8 her words, to the best of your recollection? 9 A She used the words FBI, the letters 10 FBI. Yes. 11 Q So she said FBI, did she say those 12 are FBI files? 13 A I don't -- I have testified that 14 that's what she said and that is certainly my 15 recollection of what she said. Was it 16 verbatim, no, she could have said them are 17 FBI files, I don't know, but. 18 Q Now you testified previously that 19 there were a variety of files in 20 Mr. Kennedy's office. 21 How do you know specifically 22 whether Ms. Pond knew which files you were 580 1 referring to? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 3 facts not testified to. Leading. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I understand your 5 objection. 6 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat, 7 please. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q You testified at our previous 10 session on January 5th, I believe it was, 11 that there were different kinds of files in 12 Mr. Kennedy's office and I'm, what I'm asking 13 you is how do you know that Ms. Pond knew 14 which files you were referring to? 15 A Can you show me where -- where we 16 are talking about? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection, 18 assumes facts not testified to. 19 (Counsel conferred with witness) 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q Page 541. Do you have a copy? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No. 581 1 THE WITNESS: This is not it? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, we stop 3 at 303. 4 MS. WEISMANN: Line 19. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: What page are we 6 talking about? 7 THE WITNESS: 541. Okay, I've read 8 that whole area. What was your question? 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q The question is if there were, as 11 you said, files other than the stacks of 12 files or a variety of files in Mr. Kennedy's 13 office, how do you know that Ms. Pond 14 understood which files you were referring to? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 16 question because I think it calls for the 17 witness to speculate as to Ms. Pond's state 18 of mind, but you can answer the question if 19 you have any information. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, when I asked 21 the question of Betsy, my recollection is 22 that I was referring to the stacks and stacks 582 1 of files, to which I've testified. 2 I think her response to me, what I 3 got at the time, what I continue to feel was 4 accurate now, was that we were speaking of 5 the same stacks. 6 If you're speaking of other files, 7 I mean was there other work on his desk or 8 the vetting files in particular, which he 9 gestured the other way, was not what I was 10 referring to when I asked the question, and I 11 understood from Betsy that she was referring 12 to the same stacks I was. They were hard to 13 miss. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q But that's just your understanding 16 of the situation? 17 A Yes, absolutely. We didn't go in 18 and point to them. 19 Q Let us then move on to the second 20 conversation where she talked about 21 inputting. 22 A Well, she was inputting, yeah. 583 1 Q How long after the first 2 conversation did the second conversation 3 occur? 4 A Again, it was while she was in Bill 5 Kennedy's office, and I can only give it to 6 you in a series of months possibility. I 7 don't know. I don't remember. 8 Q Well, let's start with months, was 9 it months after the first conversation? 10 A No, I'm certain it wasn't that 11 long. If I'm assuming that Betsy moved over 12 in let's say the end of January, the 13 beginning of February of '94, I had left the 14 Counsel's Office by I believe the end of May 15 of '94. I think that this would have been 16 during the time that I was still working for 17 Bernie, so, or, excuse me, still working in 18 the same location where Bernie had been. 19 Q Would you say that the length of 20 time between the two conversations was a 21 matter of weeks, then? 22 A I just don't know. I didn't attach 584 1 all that much significance at that point. 2 Q I understand. Do you recall what 3 the occasion was for you to be in the OEOB 4 suite on that day? 5 A I don't. 6 Q You don't recall it being some sort 7 of particular errand or something out of the 8 ordinary that you would recall? 9 A No, I mean I recall that I had 10 several, two or three, and I believe it was 11 three separate and distinct meetings with 12 Bill Kennedy on business matters. 13 I also recall that I was there 14 relatively frequently on not office-related 15 business, or not even not office-related 16 business, but not on meeting agenda business. 17 It may well have been just to go 18 over to the Counsel's Office to discuss 19 something with Beth Nolan or to talk to their 20 head secretary over there about suspenses. I 21 mean it could have been a myriad, I just 22 don't know. 585 1 Q Now you mentioned during the 2 December 14th session something about you and 3 Ms. Pond taking cigarette breaks together, 4 was this a conversation that took place 5 during a cigarette break? 6 A No. 7 Q This conversation took place inside 8 the OEOB suite? 9 A I recall her actually -- I recall 10 there being a time when the conversation took 11 place, we were actually sitting there and she 12 was actually inputting. 13 I also recall a time when we were 14 sitting there and she made this sort of 15 movement with her hands to indicate she was 16 still inputting data. It was much along the 17 lines of a complaint a mantra about her 18 dissatisfaction about what she was doing. 19 Again, I didn't think it was all that big a 20 deal. 21 Q Now you testified then on 22 December 14th that when she was speaking of 586 1 this complaint, and doing the pecking motion 2 with her forefingers, that you asked does he, 3 meaning Mr. Kennedy, do a lot of mail and she 4 said no, no, no, no, it's not, it's the 5 files, and she pointed back. Do you recall? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, why don't 7 you show her the testimony. 8 THE WITNESS: Actually, I do recall 9 that, though. 10 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 11 Q Thank you. Now, where was Ms. Pond 12 seated, excuse me, was she seated at her 13 desk, for that matter, during this 14 conversation? 15 A My recollection is that she was. 16 Q Now you testified earlier that as 17 you entered the main, through the main 18 doorway to the suite, her desk was on the 19 left? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Which way would she have been 22 facing when she was seated at her desk? 587 1 A Instead of, instead of facing 2 Mr. Kennedy's area and instead of facing the 3 opposite wall to that, my recollection is 4 that she was catty-cornered, facing both me 5 and her computer at the same time, if you can 6 envision that. 7 Q I'm not sure I can. 8 A You walk in the door. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Would you like her 10 to draw a diagram? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not very good at 12 artwork. Maybe I can just be more clear. 13 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 14 Q Let's say that that door there is 15 the main entrance to the office suite. 16 A I'm not -- this isn't going to 17 work. 18 Q That's not going to work, all 19 right, you try it. 20 A Let's say this is the door, I'm 21 coming in the door. This is something, I 22 don't know whether it was a credenza or a 588 1 little something, and then this was Betsy 2 (indicating). 3 Q Her desk? 4 A Her desk. Her computer. This was 5 a wall to the corridor, because I'm coming in 6 the door from the corridor. Bill Kennedy's 7 office would have been somewhere back here, 8 but close by. 9 I believe she was sitting facing me 10 and the computer, sort of like this, and 11 that's probably about as accurate as I can 12 get (indicating). 13 Q So, do I understand correctly then 14 from where she was seated, Mr. Kennedy's 15 office would have been to the left and behind 16 her? 17 A To the left. Sort of, yeah. 18 Certainly to the back. Yeah, depending, from 19 her perspective, yeah. I don't know what arm 20 she used, if that's your next question. I 21 have no idea. 22 Q Well, let me just, I'm not 589 1 interested in which arm. 2 A Oh, good. 3 Q But when you say she pointed back, 4 can you do the gesture that you meant to 5 indicate -- 6 A I'm real afraid to do that right at 7 this moment. I'm not seated where she was 8 seated and I think it's putting too much 9 emphasis on a memory that's clear to me in 10 terms of my impression, but which I wouldn't 11 want to reenact for fear you'll attack me. 12 I knew what she meant. She was 13 pointing to Mr. Kennedy's office. We had 14 spoken about those files. She had referred 15 to them as FBI files before. I don't think 16 either one of us misunderstood the other. 17 Q But, so she pointed towards 18 Mr. Kennedy's office; is that the bottom line 19 for you? 20 A That's what I understood her to be 21 gesturing toward, yes. 22 Q She said the files, correct? 590 1 A That's my recollection. 2 Q You understood her to mean FBI 3 files? 4 A I understood her to mean the same 5 files we had spoken of earlier on another 6 conversation where we had had a pretty 7 lengthy discussion about that, so. 8 Q When you say a lengthy 9 conversation, you're referring to the first 10 conversation? 11 A Well, the first conversation and on 12 cigarette breaks when she had, I think maybe 13 I haven't been clear, she bemoaned her status 14 and her current area of responsibility, 15 frequently, and so I remember her saying she 16 felt like a data entry clerk. 17 Q But are you saying that the first 18 conversation you had about FBI files was a 19 lengthy one? 20 A I can't remember how lengthy each 21 conversation was, except that we discussed 22 what she was doing in terms of entering data 591 1 into the computer at length and frequently. 2 Q Well, when she said the files, did 3 you ask her a question, something to the 4 effect, do you mean the FBI files? 5 A No. 6 Q So other than her pointing back, is 7 it fair to say that you have no indication of 8 which files she meant, other than she pointed 9 in the direction of Mr. Kennedy's office? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, misstates 11 prior testimony, leading. 12 THE WITNESS: Can I answer? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 14 THE WITNESS: I have to say that my 15 understanding was that we were talking about 16 the same files, so. 17 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 18 Q But other than Ms. Pond pointing in 19 the direction of Mr. Kennedy's office, you 20 have no knowledge what her understanding was, 21 do you? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, misstates 592 1 prior testimony, leading. 2 THE WITNESS: I can only base it on 3 our other conversations. It's like anything 4 else, you, if you're asking me was that my 5 assumption based on what she said at that 6 time, it's like any other conversation, yes. 7 Certainly I wasn't in her head. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q Now, when Ms. Pond, during this 10 second conversation when she pointed at 11 Mr. Kennedy's office, did you actually saw 12 she her inputting data during this 13 conversation? 14 A Well, I saw her entering something 15 in to the computer. But let me be clear, 16 when I say second conversation, I mean second 17 conversation that I believe made direct 18 reference to FBI files. 19 There were other conversations that 20 we had, separate and apart from those, which 21 I'm not enumerating at this point that talked 22 about the data entry. 593 1 Q I understand. 2 A You do, okay. 3 Q I do. Again, coming back and 4 calling it the second conversation, did you 5 actually see her while you were having this 6 conversation inputting data in to the 7 computer? 8 A That's my recollection. 9 Q That's your recollection. You say 10 at the same time there were stacks of these 11 files that had the same commonality that 12 you've spoken of on her desk? 13 A She had files that looked like 14 those of the stacks in her area and was 15 entering data. I did not see what she was 16 using. 17 Q You didn't see what she was 18 inputting from? 19 A No, I didn't, I didn't really even 20 pay attention. She was doing it. 21 Q As far as the stacks that were on 22 her desk that day, did you ever see the 594 1 contents of any of those files? 2 A I don't know. I don't think I -- 3 if I did, it didn't make an impression. 4 Q No one ever told you what was 5 contained in those files? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 7 asked and answered. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, only from what 9 she told me before. 10 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 11 Q Meaning her earlier reference to 12 FBI files? 13 A Yes. 14 Q But in terms of actually picking up 15 one of those files and being able to look at 16 it or somebody describing to you in detail 17 the contents of any of those files that were 18 on her desk that day, did anybody ever do 19 that? 20 A No, uh-uh. 21 Q You also mentioned on December 14th 22 a conversation with Ms. Gorham in the same 595 1 OEOB suite, as I recollect, where she also 2 complained about inputting data in to a 3 database; do you recall that testimony? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q Did Ms. Gorham identify the 6 database? 7 A No. 8 Q Did she ever describe it in any way 9 to you? 10 A The only thing I recall Debra 11 saying to me about the database at all was 12 that it was not one that we had in the West 13 Wing because I was under the impression at 14 that time that she was working on the 15 computer that had been hers when she was 16 Vince Foster's assistant in the West Wing. 17 Q Did you ever see the database she 18 was typing into, did you ever see her 19 actually typing? 20 A I saw the screen, yeah. 21 Q The one you referred to as having 22 columns? 596 1 A Some columns, and some narrative. 2 Q Other than recollecting there being 3 columns and some narrative, is there anything 4 more you can say about the nature of what you 5 saw on the screen? 6 A Well, I hadn't seen it anywhere 7 else. 8 Q Anything else? 9 A Anything else? 10 Q That you can recollect about what 11 it was? 12 A I don't believe so. I seem to 13 remember a color. I don't know the 14 significance of that or not. 15 Q Do you remember what color it was? 16 A No, sorry. 17 Q If I may, just swing back 18 momentarily to something we talked about at 19 the outset, your statement about 20 representations that Ms. Pond made to you in 21 connection with obtaining Counsel; is that 22 what it was? 597 1 A I think I spoke about that when you 2 asked me about Mr. Klayman's questions to me 3 in the lunchroom. 4 Q Right. That's what I'm referring 5 to. What were the representations that 6 Ms. Pond made to you? 7 A Oh, several. Some had to do with 8 activities in the aftermath of Vince Foster's 9 death the following day, representations she 10 made to me as to how she would answer 11 questions if asked by law enforcement, and 12 over time how she would answer questions if 13 deposed on that same subject, which were 14 untruthful, which were untruthful 15 representations at that point. 16 When we were all told that we 17 should probably retain Counsel, Betsy was 18 active in assisting several of us retain 19 Counsel and made representations during that 20 time about how it would be in our best 21 interest to find an Administration friendly 22 attorney to ensure that information that we 598 1 didn't want out there in the public domain 2 was protected. 3 Things of that nature. We had many 4 such conversations. 5 Q What were the answers about 6 Mr. Foster's death that you believe would 7 have been untruthful? 8 A Having to do with Betsy's movements 9 the following morning, the morning we came in 10 to the office. 11 Q Can you be more specific than that? 12 A Sure. 13 Q Please. 14 A The morning that we came in to the 15 office following the discovery of 16 Mr. Foster's body, Betsy had gone in to 17 Mr. Foster's office before anyone got there 18 and searched the office for a note. 19 When I got there in the later, 20 around 8 or so in the morning, Betsy was on 21 the phone with Mr. Nussbaum who I guess had 22 instructed her in no uncertain terms not to 599 1 go in to Mr. Foster's office and to ensure 2 that no one else went in to Mr. Foster's 3 office. 4 So when I came in, she immediately 5 sort of screamed don't go in his office, 6 don't go in his office, I have Bernie on the 7 phone. 8 When she hung up, she told me that 9 she had planned to tell Bernie and anyone 10 else that she went in there to straighten up, 11 but that actually she had gone in to look for 12 a note and had gone through his papers. 13 Q Ms. Pond told you that she had gone 14 in to Mr. Foster's office with the purpose of 15 searching for a note? 16 A For a suicide note. 17 Q For a suicide note? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Did she tell you why she had done 20 that? 21 A Did she tell me why. No, I don't 22 think she did. 600 1 Q Did she tell you why, if asked, she 2 would say that she had not been in his 3 office? 4 A The concern was that Mr. Nussbaum 5 had told her on the phone that under no 6 circumstances was anyone to enter the area of 7 Mr. Foster's desk in his office. 8 Q Mr. Nussbaum was her boss? 9 A Yes. 10 Q You then said that Ms. Pond told 11 you that it would be in your best interests 12 to get a "administration friendly attorney" 13 to represent you in connection with the 14 investigation of Mr. Foster's suicide; is 15 that correct? 16 A In words with that meaning, yes. 17 Q Why does that representation lead 18 you to believe that Ms. Pond would testify 19 untruthfully? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 21 compound question. I'm not sure that that's 22 the reason why, but maybe a predicate 601 1 question would be, and I would only suggest 2 this to you, is the fact that Ms. Pond 3 suggested that she obtain an administration 4 friendly attorney part of her belief why she 5 thinks Ms. Pond would testify untruthfully. 6 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 7 Q How does that contribute to your 8 belief that Ms. Pond would testify 9 untruthfully? 10 A Well, I mean there were various 11 conversations we had about this subject and 12 other subjects and in which Betsy made it 13 very clear to me that she had a history with 14 Mrs. Clinton, a history with Mr. Nussbaum, 15 and that she was a loyal team player. 16 My sense and, in fact, in 17 conversations, I gleaned from Betsy that her 18 definition of a loyal team player and mine 19 were completely different. Her definition of 20 a loyal team player meant that you took steps 21 to ensure that only that information that the 22 Administration would want out got out, and I 602 1 didn't agree with that and I don't to this 2 day. 3 Q Did she ever say that those steps 4 included not testifying truthfully under 5 oath? 6 A She intimated, yes, those very 7 words and also said that she would take steps 8 not to have to testify, whether it was -- 9 there were various scenarios she spoke of and 10 she also spoke of having worked for 19 or so 11 years, I'm not sure how many, in law firms 12 and that she knew how to do that. 13 Q Can you describe for me in any 14 specificity any conversation you ever had 15 with Ms. Pond where she indicated that she 16 would not testify truthfully under oath? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 18 answered. 19 THE WITNESS: She said that more 20 than once. 21 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 22 Q Tell me about any case where she 603 1 said that? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered. 3 THE WITNESS: A specific? 4 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 5 Q Yes. 6 A I mean I'm telling you that my 7 conversations with Betsy about this subject 8 always led me to believe that that's what I 9 was expected to do, as well. 10 Q I'm just asking for you to tell me 11 what it is she said that would lead you to 12 believe any of this, other than the fact that 13 you concluded this? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound 15 question, asked and answered. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't 17 conclude it out of whole cloth. 18 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 19 Q I'm trying to find out what the 20 foundation is for your belief, that's all. 21 A Conversations with Betsy Pond. 22 Q Can you describe them, any one of 604 1 them in any specificity? 2 A Verbatim, no, I can't. I can tell 3 you that we had these conversations, it was 4 unsettling to me. It was disturbing to me. 5 Frankly, I -- there were times when 6 Deb Gorham was a participant in these 7 conversations where I got the sense that 8 without her saying so, I got the sense that 9 Deb's leaning, if she had one, was more 10 towards Betsy's school of thought than mine. 11 Q What did Ms. Gorham say that would 12 lead you to believe that? 13 A I can't today, years later, give 14 you verbatim conversations. I can only tell 15 you that it was alarming to me. I had talked 16 about getting a legal defense attorney, I 17 forget what they are called now, and that was 18 disturbing to Betsy and to Bernie, but 19 specifically Betsy was the one who found the 20 Paul Hastings attorney for me. 21 It was certainly, it was certainly 22 something that was made clear to me. This 605 1 wasn't something that I imagined. 2 Q Other than Ms. Gorham, were there 3 any other people you can name who 4 participated or overheard these conversations 5 with Ms. Pond? 6 A Overheard? 7 Q Yes. 8 A I don't think this is the kind of 9 conversation you would have in a busy room 10 with people overhearing. 11 Q Well, you said Ms. Gorham was privy 12 to one of these conversations? 13 A Right, she was. More than one, 14 actually. 15 Q More than one, okay. Who else, if 16 you can remember? 17 A I don't think anyone else. 18 Q Again, I just want to be clear, can 19 you remember any specific words that Ms. Pond 20 used which led you to believe that she was 21 going to testify untruthfully or that you 22 were expected to testify untruthfully? 606 1 A Specific words, no. I just can't. 2 I remember conversations, snippets of 3 conversations. As you asked me just now, I 4 remember part of a conversation about the 5 lawyers, the associates accompanying us to 6 FBI or Park Police interrogations and her 7 comment to me that we should say that that 8 was our idea, that we wanted the Office of 9 General Counsel to represent us in these 10 interviews. 11 I said that's not true. I didn't 12 ask for them. In fact, I still don't 13 understand today how a White House lawyer 14 representing the institution of the President 15 can represent me as a staff member in any 16 legal sense, so. 17 Q Any other snippets that you can 18 recall? 19 A I'm sure there could be. At the 20 top of -- I'd have to go back and think about 21 this. This is six years old, almost. It's 22 hard for me to get to. 607 1 My sense was clear from Betsy and 2 less so from Deb. 3 Q Just a couple more things, then, 4 Ms. Tripp. 5 You testified on December 14th that 6 on an occasion when you were in 7 Mr. Livingstone's office, the Office of 8 Personnel Security, that you saw some of the 9 files that shared the commonality with the 10 stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office, albeit far 11 fewer in number. 12 Can you give me any estimate of 13 what that number was that you saw in 14 Mr. Livingstone's office? 15 A Give you an estimate of the number? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Significantly fewer than in 18 Mr. Kennedy's office. I wouldn't attempt to 19 give you a number in Mr. Kennedy's office, so 20 it would be hard to do it in 21 Mr. Livingstone's office. 22 Very small amount in comparison. 608 1 Q Were there dozens, were there 2 hundreds? 3 A Well, I have never, press reports 4 that I've read allude to 900 FBI files. I've 5 always thought that what I saw was 6 significantly more. 7 Q In Mr. Kennedy's office? 8 A Yes. 9 Q I'm referring, if I was vague, to 10 Mr. Livingstone's office. 11 A Right, so I don't know that I'm the 12 best judge of numbers. 13 I don't even remember stacks and 14 stacks. I remember having an impression that 15 these were the same as those in Mr. Kennedy's 16 office and elsewhere. 17 Q You testified that Mr. Livingstone 18 and Mr. Marceca told you that these were not, 19 to use your words, security background files? 20 A Could you read me that portion, 21 please. 22 Q Sure, it's page 136 of the 609 1 December 14th transcript, line 1. 135 2 to 136, yes, thank you. 3 A Okay, could you repeat your 4 question, please. 5 Q Now that you've read the testimony, 6 I take it you recall it? 7 A Yeah, I do. 8 Q I guess, well let me put it this 9 way, did you ask Mr. Livingstone or 10 Mr. Marceca what these files were? 11 A Well, I think I testified that I 12 spoke to them on different occasions and that 13 is my recollection that they were not, I 14 didn't speak to them at the same time. 15 I asked them both separately what 16 those were and it had to do with actually a 17 business reason for asking, something to do 18 with the logging system for security 19 background files that had to do with Craig 20 Livingstone's assistant, trying to get a 21 promotion, business cards, that kind of 22 thing, writing a job description and 610 1 justifying a pay grade promotion and title 2 change. 3 It was in that regard, I believe, 4 that my conversation with Craig occurred 5 about those, about are these the security 6 background folders, files, whatever, that you 7 would log in. We were trying to write, 8 actually, a job description, a new job 9 description for the assistant. 10 Q I see. Having told you what they 11 were not, did they tell you what they were? 12 A No. 13 Q Can you with any greater 14 specificity than any of the other files we've 15 talked about describe these files? 16 A No. 17 Q Did they say anything on the 18 outside to indicate that they were FBI files? 19 A No, they just looked like the other 20 ones which had been pointed out to me as 21 being FBI files. 22 Q Do you have a recollection of when 611 1 this conversation took place? 2 A No, I don't even know if it 3 pre-dated the FBI explanation from Betsy. 4 When I say it's all of a piece, I mean that 5 eventually it all made sense to me. Again, 6 that's only my conclusion. 7 Q Did you ever know anybody at the 8 White House named Nancy Gemmel? 9 A The name, but I don't have a 10 distinct recollection. 11 Q Do you have a recollection of her 12 working in the Office of Personnel Security? 13 A If I'm not mistaken, my 14 recollection is that she was there in the 15 Bush White House. 16 Q Did you ever have any dealings with 17 Gemmel when you were in the Bush White House? 18 A I think so, I just don't recall 19 specifically. I didn't work for the 20 Counsel's Office in the Bush White House, so 21 I would have had far fewer dealings with that 22 office on a professional basis. 612 1 Q Do you recall whether all the files 2 that you saw in Mr. Livingstone's office 3 looked the same or do you have a recollection 4 of them looking different? 5 A This fell off. 6 Q I understand. 7 A I don't have the same clear 8 recollection that I had in Bill Kennedy's 9 office, except that I remember saying -- 10 thinking to myself, these look like the other 11 ones. 12 I can't tell you right now if that 13 meant these look like the ones in Bill 14 Kennedy's office or these look like the ones 15 that were on Vince's desk that ended up in 16 the safe. To me, they just reminded me of 17 the other ones I had seen. 18 Q Well, I'm just asking, focusing 19 specifically and exclusively on 20 Mr. Livingstone's office. 21 A I know that, but you're asking me 22 if they -- 613 1 Q Do you recall there being in his 2 office basically one kind of file or many 3 different kinds of files? 4 A Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood the 5 question. 6 Q That's okay. 7 A I recall that there were files that 8 I was shown during the time that Craig was 9 trying to get his assistant promoted in 10 showing me the logging system that were 11 different from the files I'm referencing when 12 I speak of files I saw in Craig's office. I 13 know he's going to ask me, how are they 14 different. I don't remember. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let him ask the 16 question. 17 THE WITNESS: I know. He's the one 18 with no time. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We are going to have 20 a period, Ms. Tripp, when you get to ask 21 Mr. Gilligan questions at the end. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sure he'll be 614 1 thrilled. 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q In our December 14th session you 4 testified that while you worked at the White 5 House, the files on your desktop, the 6 computer files on your desktop computer were 7 backed up to some sort of server or computer 8 system? 9 A Oh. 10 Q Do you recall that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do you recall when that back-up 13 system came into place? 14 A No, I don't. I know that we were 15 told and in practicality found this to be 16 true, that nothing ever disappeared, even if 17 you lost data, somehow, that it could be 18 retrieved elsewhere and routinely was. 19 Q Do you recall whether this system 20 was in place during the Bush Administration? 21 A Well, I don't know that it was the 22 same system. I know that I was able to 615 1 request assistance through the computer shop 2 and retrieve lost data. I remember a 3 specific instance in the late Fall of '92 4 where we were able to do that, so that was 5 during the Bush time. 6 Q Sure, okay. You reference this 7 back-up system having a nickname Big Brother, 8 do you recall testifying to that? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Testifies 10 to facts. Why don't you show her the 11 testimony. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I'll conduct the 13 deposition in my own fashion. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll object in my own 15 fashion, how's that. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Okay, all right. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Assumes facts not in 18 evidence. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: You objected. 20 Please don't purport to instruct me how to 21 conduct the deposition, Mr. Klayman. That's 22 all I ask. 616 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mrs. Trip, would 2 you like to look at your testimony before you 3 answer the question? 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I would. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q There were several examples, why 7 don't you try page 112 of the December 14th 8 transcript. 9 A Okay. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: 112? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, okay, 13 uh-huh. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q The nickname Big Brother, do you 16 recall whether this back-up system had that 17 nickname during the Bush Administration, as 18 well? 19 A I don't. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound. 21 THE WITNESS: But let me clarify, 22 it's capitalized here as a name and maybe I 617 1 misspoke. 2 We never, I don't recall ever being 3 told that there was a back-up system named 4 Big Brother. We referred to it as Big 5 Brother as sort of a good thing. This is 6 something we can count on to retrieve data. 7 It was also in this context that we 8 understood that our electronic mail 9 transmissions were kept indefinitely. 10 This is separate and apart from 11 what the Clinton Administration began in 12 terms of saving or assigning, assigning 13 Presidential record delineation of files. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q A preexisting? 16 A I think that was a Clinton 17 Administration initiative. I don't believe 18 we did that in the Bush White House. We may 19 well have at the end, I don't think so. 20 But this Big Brother name bothers 21 me in that it sounds like we were discussing 22 a database of some sort that had some sort of 618 1 nefarious reason for existence. That's not 2 how we thought of it. 3 Q When you say we, who's we? 4 A The people in the Counsel's Office 5 with whom I worked, any of us who used the 6 computers. 7 Q When we spoke on January 5th, and 8 I'll tell you it's page 512 of that 9 transcript, if you want to look at it, you 10 said that you were told that the file 11 concerning Mr. Inman? 12 A Bobby Inman's vetting file. 13 Q Right, as you say, had come from 14 Mr. Kennedy's office? 15 A Can I read this again? 16 Q Sure. Sure, page 512. 17 A We thought all vetting came from 18 Mr. Kennedy's office. 19 Where is that, line 9 you're 20 referring to? 21 Q I'm actually referring to line 21. 22 A Uh-huh. 619 1 Q Do you recall who told you that? 2 A I don't. To be completely clear, 3 any time we talked about vetting files, we 4 thought or were told or I think any of us can 5 answer that we thought it came from Bill 6 Kennedy's office, to a certain point, and 7 then we thought it came from Beth Nolan's 8 office. 9 We didn't believe that any vetting 10 files originated in the West Wing, so I 11 didn't pull that out of thin air in terms of 12 at the time didn't just guess it came from 13 Mr. Kennedy's office, so I'm assuming that 14 someone told me and I don't know who. 15 Q Other than the conversation you had 16 with Mr. Klayman, just prior to the 17 deposition today, have you had any 18 conversations with Mr. Klayman since our 19 January 5th session of the deposition? 20 A Me? 21 Q Yes. 22 A No. 620 1 Q Just checking. 2 A No. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: I think I'll take a 4 break here and see if I have anything else 5 and if I don't, someone else will forge 6 ahead. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 8 at 2:39 p.m. 9 (Recess) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 11 at 3:02 p.m. 12 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, do you recall testifying 14 before the Senate Special Whitewater 15 Committee regarding Mr. Foster's death in 16 August of 1995? 17 A Yes. 18 Q To the best of your recollection, 19 did you testify truthfully, accurately and 20 completely as best you could? 21 A I didn't testify completely. 22 Q You did not testify completely? 621 1 A No. 2 Q What did you not testify completely 3 to? 4 A Many issues. 5 Q Did you answer every question that 6 was put to you as truthfully, accurately and 7 completely as you could? 8 A I answered each question narrowly 9 and truthfully. 10 Q But nevertheless, accurately? 11 A Narrowly, truthfully, if narrowly. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I have no further 13 questions. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Can we just pause for 15 one moment? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Pausing for 17 Ms. Ziegler? 18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 19 HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Tripp. My name 22 is Paul Gaffney. I'm an attorney at Williams 622 1 and Connolly. I'm representing the First 2 Lady in this matter. 3 On page 27 of your December 14th 4 testimony, you stated that you endeavored to 5 write a book to expose several of the 6 scandals that I had witnessed during my time 7 at the White House; do you recall that 8 testimony? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q Is this the book project involving 11 Maggie Gallagher that you testified to during 12 your Grand Jury appearance? 13 A It is. 14 Q Do you still have a copy of that 15 book proposal? 16 A I don't, I don't know where it is 17 at this moment. 18 Q When's the last time you've seen 19 that? 20 A I don't remember, to tell you the 21 truth. 22 Q What did you do with the copy you 623 1 had? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q When's the last time you saw a copy 4 of it? 5 A Didn't you just ask me that. 6 Q I'll ask it again. 7 A I don't remember, again. 8 Q How many pages was it? 9 A I don't remember. It was a draft. 10 Q Who actually wrote it? 11 A It was typed by Maggie Gallagher. 12 Q Do you know whether it was done on 13 a word processor? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Who else had copies of it at the 16 time you looked at it? 17 A I don't think anyone had a copy. 18 Q Ms. Gallagher had a copy? 19 A She FedExed me her draft. 20 Q How about Ms. Goldberg, did she 21 have a copy? 22 A I don't think so, but not from me, 624 1 in any event. 2 Q Do you know whether she ever saw 3 it? 4 A Not from me. I don't know. 5 Q When you made reference to several 6 of the scandals, what episodes were you 7 referring to? 8 A The idea of the book evolved over 9 time, but it evolved, came to a head during 10 the time that Gary Aldrich's book had been 11 published and he had been vilified by the 12 White House and its apologists as being, at 13 best, disingenuous and at worst, a liar and 14 someone who was misrepresenting the truth. 15 The idea, my idea was to vindicate 16 Gary Aldrich and to show on a more personal 17 level exactly how true what he had written 18 was and bring it another step beyond that. 19 Q I appreciate your answer on that, 20 but when you testified on December 14th that 21 you endeavored to write a book to expose 22 several of the scandals identify for me 625 1 specifically which of the scandals, to use 2 your word, you were referring to? 3 A Certainly the women having to do 4 with the President, that was one chapter. 5 There were chapters about the firing of the 6 Travel Office and events that led up to that 7 firing, the aftermath of that. 8 Certainly information about the 9 events leading up to and the aftermath of 10 Vince Foster's death, Whitewater related, the 11 appointing of a special prosecutor, 12 information about Mr. Kendall. 13 Q How about the FBI files matter? 14 A I don't remember, to tell you the 15 truth. 16 Q Is it likely that you would have 17 put that in there? 18 A I believe it was in there. I 19 believe yes. I just don't have a specific 20 recollection about, to what degree of detail 21 there was, but since I had spoken to Tony 22 Snow at length about this, it would be my 626 1 conclusion that I would have certainly 2 included that. 3 Q Did you make any effort to obtain a 4 copy of this book proposal, let's call it, in 5 response to the subpoena Mr. Klayman served 6 on you? 7 A From where? I don't know what you 8 mean. 9 Q Did you call anyone to say do you 10 have a copy of that, I need to produce it in 11 connection with this lawsuit? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q You don't know whether you made any 14 effort to find this? 15 A Oh, no, I don't know anyone who has 16 it. 17 Q Did you call Ms. Gallagher? 18 A I don't think I even have 19 Ms. Gallagher's phone number. 20 Q Did you call Ms. Goldberg to ask 21 her whether she had a copy? 22 A No, I never knew Ms. Goldberg to 627 1 have a copy of this. It was my understanding 2 that Maggie had sent me her draft and I 3 didn't send it back because it was not going 4 to go anywhere, we decided. 5 It was too sensational. It was not 6 worth losing an 18-year Government career. 7 It was a cowardly thing to do to withdraw. 8 Q Did you look for a copy of this 9 book proposal in your own files in connection 10 with this subpoena? 11 A I've looked in my own files for 12 anything responsive to this subpoena. 13 Q Mr. Gilligan asked you as his last 14 question or series of questions whether you 15 recall testifying in front of the House 16 Committee, I believe? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Senate Whitewater 18 Committee. 19 THE WITNESS: Senate Banking 20 Committee. 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q Do you recall giving a deposition 628 1 in July 1995 to a House Committee 2 investigating the Whitewater matter? 3 A A House Committee, no, I don't 4 think I did. 5 Q Do you recall giving a deposition 6 and I'm saying that as opposed to testifying 7 actually in front of -- 8 A It was a Senate Banking Committee 9 deposition. 10 Q You were under oath in that matter? 11 A Correct. 12 Q You testified truthfully, I assume? 13 A I testified truthfully and narrowly 14 throughout that entire procedure. 15 Q But you were never purposefully 16 misleading in any respect, were you? 17 A When called upon to give my 18 opinions, I gave the most positive spin I 19 could within the confines and constraints of 20 being truthful, yeah. 21 Q But when asked for factual 22 testimony, you certainly provided truthful 629 1 testimony? 2 A Why don't you give me an example of 3 what you're asking. 4 Q Well, I just want to -- 5 A I did not lie under oath. I was 6 not complete under oath. 7 Q Thank you. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I'd ask you to mark 9 this as Tripp Exhibit 10. 10 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 10 11 was marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, I'd ask you to take a 14 look at what we've had marked as Tripp 15 Exhibit 10, which I'll represent to you is 16 excerpts from a Senate Banking Committee 17 matter. 18 It says deposition of Linda R. 19 Tripp; do you see that? 20 A I do. 21 Q Could you turn to the page that 22 says 3568 at the top; do you see that? 630 1 A I see the number. 2 Q Look at the page marked 48, if you 3 would. 4 In line 3 there's a question, do 5 you see that question, it was your 6 understanding that the relationship between 7 the White House Counsel's Office and the 8 First Lady's office was close. You say 9 close. 10 The question is there were a lot of 11 contacts between the First Lady's office and 12 the White House Counsel's Office. You 13 answered well, we also had a lot of contact 14 with the immediate office, with Bruce 15 Lindsay, with the Chief of Staff's office as 16 well, so I don't know how you define close. 17 Do you see that? 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q That was truthful testimony, I 20 gather? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Could you look at the next page, it 631 1 says 3569 at the top and it looks to be 2 deposition page 49. 3 The questioning that begins on 4 line 7, do you see that? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q Could you take a moment to just 7 review down to the end of that page 49. 8 A Right, I see this. 9 Q That testimony was accurate; is 10 that correct? 11 A That's right. 12 Q I would like to refer you to your 13 testimony from January 5th. 14 A Okay. 15 Q I actually brought a copy of this, 16 I don't know if Mr. Zaccagnini has one, but 17 I'm not going to mark it as an exhibit, but 18 why don't you supply it to the witness. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, we don't have 20 it, please. 21 THE WITNESS: It's right here. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm sorry, it's 632 1 right here. 2 THE WITNESS: What page? 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Let's see, page 361. Starting on 5 line 14, do you see that Mr. Klayman asked 6 you the question, is it your belief that 7 Foster and Kennedy took orders from Hillary 8 Clinton, do you believe that? I objected. 9 Then you answer yes; do you see that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Can you recall any specific orders 12 that Mrs. Clinton gave to Mr. Foster or 13 Mr. Kennedy? 14 A Well, the question was is it your 15 belief. 16 Q I understand that, I understand 17 it's your belief. 18 A So I'm telling you that to this 19 day, it is my belief that specifically Vince 20 Foster and Bill Kennedy worked for 21 Mrs. Clinton. Was it on a wiring diagram so 22 indicating, no, it was not. 633 1 Q I understand your testimony. My 2 question is whether you recall any specific 3 orders that Mrs. Clinton gave either of those 4 two individuals? 5 A I remember an order having to do 6 with the firing of the Travel Office from 7 Mrs. Clinton to Mr. Foster, yes. 8 Q What was that order? 9 A In handwriting on a memo in 10 Mrs. Clinton's hand signed HRC, which said, 11 we need our people out, out underlined -- we 12 need these people out, out underlined, we 13 need our people in, in underlined, HRC. 14 That was on a memo and it is 15 something that I discussed with Phil Larson, 16 actually, during the time that he, contacted 17 me when he was working on a House Committee 18 looking into the Travel Office. 19 Q Other than that instance, are you 20 aware of any other? 21 A I can only tell you what I observed 22 with Craig Livingstone, Bill Kennedy and 634 1 Vince Foster and I reiterate that -- 2 Q You've testified to that? 3 A I'm sorry? 4 Q Is that what you testified to? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Let her 6 answer. 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q You can answer. 9 A Well, you can tell me if I have 10 already. I believe I have stated in the past 11 that it was my belief that these individuals 12 had a direct line of communication with 13 Mrs. Clinton and did not seem to have that 14 same interaction with the immediate office. 15 Our office certainly did. I'm 16 speaking of these three individuals 17 specifically. 18 Q Now in your testimony on the first 19 day you stated that there was a meeting in 20 Mr. Foster's office and that Deb Gorham, you 21 asked Deb Gorham what the meeting was about 22 and she wrote something down that said Travel 635 1 Office? 2 A That's right. 3 Q Did I accurately paraphrase that? 4 A Yes, uh-huh. 5 Q How many times did Ms. Gorham tell 6 you that a specific meeting was about the 7 Travel Office? 8 A I'm not sure I understand the 9 question. 10 Q Was it just that one time? Let me 11 rephrase the question. Is that the only time 12 Deb Gorham told you that a specific meeting 13 was about the Travel Office? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q How many other times did she tell 16 you that? 17 A Again, I don't remember how many 18 other times. I do know that I, in my 19 recollection, the first time I saw this odd 20 compilation of folks come in to our office, 21 when I asked the question was when she wrote 22 down Travel Office. I don't believe it was 636 1 the only time we spoke of it. 2 Q But you can't recall a specific 3 time that you did; is that fair to say? 4 A What do you mean? 5 Q You recall the once, a specific 6 instance? 7 A I remember her writing down Travel 8 Office, certainly, yes. 9 Q Other than that time, can you 10 recall any specific instance where she said 11 they are meeting about the Travel Office or 12 so indicated to you? 13 A More than that time and not in 14 writing. 15 Q I'd ask you to turn back to your 16 House deposition, the excerpt of which I gave 17 you. 18 A House, you mean Senate? 19 Q I'm sorry, the Senate. Page 3567, 20 it's the second to last question on the 21 bottom of that page. 22 A I'm sorry, on what page? 637 1 Q 3567. 2 A Okay. 3 Q Do you see that, and you were asked 4 the question, you're being asked questions 5 about Maggie Williams; do you see that? 6 A Okay, what line? 7 Q Line 18. 8 A What does that speak to? Could you 9 clarify the time? 10 Q Well, take as much time as you want 11 to review this excerpt of your testimony. 12 A I don't even know what we are 13 talking about here. Oh, visits with the 14 First Lady, is that the area? 15 Q Right. There's a question on 16 line 7 there, was Maggie Williams a frequent 17 visitor of Mr. Foster; and you indicated yes? 18 A Oh, we are down on that page, okay, 19 sorry. I was up on the other one. 20 Where shall I stop? 21 Q See the question that begins on 22 line 18, do you have any understanding as to 638 1 the types of matters that Mr. Foster was 2 working on with Ms. Williams? 3 A Correct. 4 Q I have no firsthand knowledge; that 5 was your response, correct? 6 A Yes, I see that. 7 Q Then the question is, do you have 8 any second-hand knowledge. Your answer is 9 not really, I never asked any questions, so 10 it wasn't my business what Maggie wanted. 11 A This pertains to matters having to 12 do with the First Lady, does it not? 13 Q I'm not exactly sure what it 14 pertains to, it's just a question about 15 matters that Ms. Williams was working on with 16 Mr. Foster. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I would just say 18 allow the witness to take time to review the 19 testimony so she can figure out what it 20 pertains to. 21 THE WITNESS: This appears to me, 22 unless I'm mistaken, that this testimony 639 1 starting with 18 refers to first- or 2 second-hand knowledge about the business that 3 Maggie Williams had with Mr. Foster; am I not 4 correct? 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Correct? 7 A So what is your question? 8 Q Before that you say that she was 9 one of Mr. Foster's most frequent visitors. 10 A True. 11 Q In your testimony on the 14th you 12 seemed to indicate that there were a number 13 of meetings in Mr. Foster's office and that 14 Maggie Williams attended at least some of 15 them; is that correct? 16 A Are we talking about the Travel 17 Office meetings? 18 Q Just meetings around that time, 19 which I assume were in -- 20 A Well I think what you're -- I don't 21 know what you're referring to. 22 I know that I referenced in my 640 1 prior testimony that I saw Maggie Williams in 2 an office, a Whitewater damage control 3 meeting in John Podesta's office. 4 Q Are you aware of any meeting that 5 Maggie Williams had in Mr. Foster's office 6 where the subject of that meeting was the 7 Travel Office? 8 A I don't know. I don't know. As I 9 sit here right now, I'm not certain that she 10 was one of the attendees at one of the 11 meetings. My -- I believe she was at one of 12 the meetings, but I don't, I can't tell you 13 for sure which one and I can't tell you for 14 sure how long she was there. It was just an 15 impression I had. 16 Q But if you had had a clear 17 recollection of it in 1995, you would have 18 probably said so in response to those 19 questions? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 21 calls for speculation. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what 641 1 question you're referring to. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q The ones that you were asked in 4 that deposition? 5 A Which questions specifically? 6 Q You were asked in that deposition 7 whether you had any knowledge? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: What deposition are 9 you talking about? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, if the 11 witness has a problem with my questions or 12 counsel has a problem with my questions -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I object, it's vague 14 and ambiguous. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't you let me 16 get my question out before you make an 17 objection. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: You did get it out, 19 Mr. Gaffney. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q You were asked -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague and 642 1 ambiguous. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q You were asked, do you have any 4 understanding as to the types of matters that 5 Mr. Foster was working on with Ms. Williams 6 and you said I have no firsthand knowledge. 7 A Uh-huh. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: What page are you 9 on, I'm sorry? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: 3568. 11 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 12 Q He asked do you have second-hand 13 knowledge, you said not really, I never asked 14 questions. 15 So if you had recalled at that time 16 that she had attended a meeting about the 17 Travel Office, you probably would have said 18 so; isn't that fair to say? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 20 calls for speculation. 21 THE WITNESS: You know, what this 22 was referring to, and I'm sorry if I answered 643 1 probably too narrowly on this particular 2 occasion, however, these questions had to do 3 with the -- as I understood them, questions 4 about Maggie's back and forth and movement of 5 files and her movements as it pertained to 6 Mr. Foster, specifically in the aftermath of 7 his death, prior to and in the aftermath of 8 his death. 9 So, in this particular sequence of 10 questions, I don't know that if I had, in the 11 back of my mind, remembered Maggie on behalf 12 of Mrs. Clinton being at a Travel Office 13 meeting, that that's one that I would have 14 contributed to at that point. 15 I think we were talking here, and 16 again, I feel I'm at a slight disadvantage 17 not having a chance to review almost 18 three-year old testimony, but I do believe we 19 were talking about Maggie's movements as it 20 pertained to Mr. Foster, specifically. 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q You testified on the 14th about two 644 1 conversations that you overheard between 2 Marcia Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Do you recall that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q I want to talk about the first one. 7 When did this occur? 8 A I testified I'm not sure. I 9 testified I know where the first one 10 occurred. 11 Q That's what I'm saying, the first 12 one, it occurred? 13 A In the old EOB. 14 Q Where were you working at the time? 15 A I don't know for sure. My sense is 16 that I was still working in the West Wing 17 Counsel's Office. 18 Q Do you recall what you were doing 19 at the OEOB at the time? 20 A I have no idea. I think it's fair 21 to say I was in the old OEOB probably every 22 single day that I worked at the White House, 645 1 as you're probably aware, so I don't know 2 that I would remember. 3 Q How close were you in proximity to 4 Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 5 A Oh, God. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague as 7 to time. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q Again, I'm referring to this -- 10 A Close enough to overhear, and I 11 think I testified that I was attempting to 12 hear. 13 Q You testified that Mr. Kennedy had 14 files in his hand; is that correct? 15 A On that particular occasion. 16 Q Right. Did you see any names on 17 these files? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you look in these files? 20 A Did I look in them? No. 21 Q These files I gather had a 22 commonality with the file you saw on 646 1 Mr. Foster's desk that said Dale on it; is 2 that correct? 3 A Well, what I've testified to is 4 that the files that I have come to believe 5 were FBI files had a commonality to them. 6 The files that Mr. Kennedy had in 7 his arms that day I believed at the time, I 8 still believe, today, were those types of 9 files. That's only my belief. 10 Q Tell me everything you can that you 11 recall about the conversation that occurred 12 between Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 13 A My recollection was at the time 14 that I saw them that Marcia was giving 15 instruction to Mr. Kennedy about the 16 inputting of data. I remember the words 17 database, I remember DNC. 18 It was as though she was 19 instructing him, and actually the second 20 conversation was much the same. I don't know 21 that the second conversation included the 22 words DNC, but I do remember it being much 647 1 the same, except a hand gesture and the 2 reference to the First Lady. 3 Q What did she say to Mr. Kennedy 4 that leads you to believe it was an 5 instruction of some sort? 6 A Again, it's been too long for me to 7 be specifically in any way a verbatim 8 explanation. 9 My impression overhearing what I 10 did was that this was an instruction having 11 to do with entering data in to a database 12 from files that included a sharing of data 13 with the DNC, White House and the DNC. My 14 further impression was that she, somehow, was 15 in charge of it. It seemed a bit askew to 16 me. 17 Q Have you told me everything you 18 recall about this conversation? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Sitting here today, have you told 21 me everything that you -- 22 A I don't know, I just don't know. I 648 1 mean I don't know. I'd have to sit here and 2 think about it and I don't know. 3 Q I ask you to sit here and think 4 about it and take as much time as you need. 5 A I don't know. At the moment I 6 think I may have, I may not have. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't we take 8 a break for a second. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: No, I don't want to 10 take a break. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I do. Let's 12 take a break for a second. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, I'd ask that 14 Mr. Zaccagnini not to confer with his witness 15 with this question pending. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I'm going to 17 take a break with my client. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 19 at 3:27 p.m.) 20 (Recess) 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 22 at 3:42 p.m. 649 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Gaffney, I'm 2 sorry, before you go ask your question, and I 3 won't hold this time against you, I want to 4 do something, I want to put something on the 5 record and I want to clarify something which 6 will probably allow you, put you in a 7 position where you're going to want to ask 8 more questions. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Hold on, what are we 10 doing here? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to put a 12 statement on the record, in this proceeding, 13 okay? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Okay. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You had asked 16 Ms. Tripp some questions earlier, I think 17 your first set of questions in this 18 deposition about the location and the 19 existence of a book proposal. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Correct. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I've just had a 22 conversation with Ms. Tripp about that book 650 1 proposal. I want you to know that I did not 2 have any conversation with her about your 3 pending question. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I've advised 6 Ms. Tripp that she may be, that, in fact, she 7 is in possession of the book proposal, to the 8 best of my knowledge, and that is because a 9 week ago, less than a week ago she asked me 10 to turn over to her certain documents which I 11 had obtained from Jim Moody, which it was my 12 understanding that Jim Moody had obtained 13 from Mr. Kirby Bear. 14 It's a redwell full of documents 15 and I couldn't recount for you the entire 16 contents of everything that's in that 17 redwell, and it's substantial, it's about six 18 inches thick, and contained in that document, 19 basically my review of that redwell, is the 20 book proposal. 21 I believe that I looked at the book 22 proposal before I responded to Mr. Klayman's 651 1 request for production of documents. It's my 2 recollection, and I'll be glad to revisit 3 this and provide you this, if I'm mistaken, 4 that there wasn't any mention about Filegate 5 in that book proposal. 6 Ms. Tripp thinks otherwise. If I'm 7 mistaken, then I made the mistake and I will 8 be glad to turn a copy of that over to you if 9 I believe it to be responsive to -- I'll turn 10 it over to Mr. Klayman and to everybody else 11 if it is responsive to the document request. 12 Therefore, if there is an error, 13 it's an error that I made and not Ms. Tripp 14 because Ms. Tripp was not in possession of 15 the book proposal when we went through all of 16 her files to look at, for documents 17 responsive to the request. 18 That document was contained in my 19 personal safe and I'm almost sure that I did 20 look at it before I responded to the request, 21 because I have a recollection of going 22 through the redwell before I responded to the 652 1 document request, but I will revisit that and 2 advise all the parties as to whether or not I 3 believe that document is responsive to the 4 request. 5 Having said that, you may want to 6 ask Ms. Tripp some questions. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I would ask 8 Mr. Zaccagnini if you can look through all of 9 the documents and see if there's anything 10 that's responsive to the request in there. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, I'm 12 sorry, go ahead -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's broader than 14 just the use of the word Filegate as we 15 defined it in the subpoena. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right, I 17 understand that and I don't have a complete 18 recollection of having looked at the book 19 proposal, but I may have, and it would be 20 inconsistent with my recollection to think 21 that I did not, but I'll have to go back and 22 look at it again. 653 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: What time do we have 3 now? 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 3:45. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I would add just 6 one last thing, Mrs. Tripp has not had an 7 opportunity to go through the materials in 8 the redwell, so she's probably, I am sure 9 that she's unaware that she's in possession 10 of it. 11 THE WITNESS: I am now. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, your attorney just made 14 a representation about the book proposal we 15 discussed earlier. 16 I would just join in with what 17 Mr. Klayman said that the subpoena he served 18 on you is broader than simply requesting 19 documents that refer to Filegate and I will 20 accept your attorney's representation that 21 the book proposal will be reviewed very 22 consistently with the request for production. 654 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I didn't mean to 2 intentionally limit it to Filegate. I 3 recognize anything, documents related to 4 Government files and I want you to understand 5 that I will certainly make it available to 6 all the parties if, in fact, I find it 7 responsive to the subpoena. If not, you know 8 that it exists, you can do a motion to 9 compel. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Also, like I said, 11 the subpoena is much broader. I think it's 12 probably inconceivable that the book proposal 13 is not called for in some respect and is 14 certainly relevant to this matter, so we'd 15 ask that you produce it and -- 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I don't want 17 to get into a battle with you. Let me make 18 that determination and if it is, it is and if 19 it isn't, it isn't and you know it exists, 20 I'm not hiding the fact that it exists. 21 You can always move to compel and 22 then we can go that route. But let me take a 655 1 look at it and then we'll resolve it that 2 way. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 4 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 5 Q Ms. Tripp, I'd like to discuss the 6 second Marcia Scott, Bill Kennedy 7 conversation that you've testified to on 8 the 14th. 9 I believe you said this discussion 10 occurred in the West Wing; is that correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Tell me everything you can recall 13 about what Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy said 14 back and forth to one another. 15 A The conversation was taking place, 16 to the best of my recollection, in the 17 hallway right adjacent to Mrs. Clinton's 18 office and to the Counsel's Office West Wing 19 second floor. 20 Again, it was -- Marcia seemed to 21 be instructing Mr. Kennedy. I don't have an 22 independent recollection about the DNC words. 656 1 I have an independent recollection of Marcia 2 Scott almost ordering Mr. Kennedy to do 3 something having to do with database and 4 pointing to and referencing she wants it 5 done, or words to that effect. 6 Q Can you recall anything else at 7 this time about that conversation? 8 A I think I've told you what I recall 9 at this time. 10 Q Okay, thank you. At your 11 deposition on the 14th, Mr. Klayman showed 12 you a copy of a New York Post article, I 13 think he marked it as Exhibit 6. I've got an 14 extra copy of that, but if you have the 15 original exhibit, I'd appreciate you showing 16 it to the witness. 17 Now this article was published 18 around the time of your Grand Jury testimony 19 this summer; is that correct? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q I believe it talks about you 22 spending more than seven hours before the 657 1 Grand Jury yesterday. 2 A Well, then I guess so. 3 Q Now, you testified in your 4 deposition on the 14th with respect to the 5 discussion of FBI files that the article was 6 inaccurate in certain respects; do you recall 7 that? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I think what I 10 said was that it was in Lucianne Goldberg's 11 very individual manner of speaking. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q So it's not inaccurate in certain 14 respects? 15 A Well, I think that that's how I 16 testified, that it was Lucianne Goldberg's 17 manner of speaking and interpretation. 18 If you'd like to ask me specific 19 questions about what she said and how I would 20 answer it, I'm happy to do that, or we can 21 review my prior testimony. I think I used 22 the word peculiar. 658 1 Q Why don't we look at your prior 2 testimony. 3 A Where is that? 4 Q Why don't we turn to page 139. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just ask, 6 let's take a break because we want to make a 7 copy of it. We don't have -- 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I have extra copies. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, thank you. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Do you see your testimony there on 12 page 139? 13 A I do, uh-huh. 14 Q So certain, let me phrase it this 15 way, Ms. Goldberg did not provide the New 16 York Post with an accurate recitation of what 17 you told her; is that correct? 18 A Well I don't know what 19 Ms. Goldberg provided the New York Post, at 20 all. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 22 THE WITNESS: You asked me, I 659 1 believe, that -- it was Ms. Shapiro who asked 2 me about hand trucks of FBI files. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q It was actually Mr. Klayman who 5 asked these questions. 6 A My response to that I believe was, 7 well, we can read the record, but I don't 8 know what a hand truck is. 9 Q You were not there when they came 10 in with hand trucks of FBI files or at least 11 you never told Ms. Goldberg that; is that 12 correct? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Compound, leading. 14 Assumes facts not testified to. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Is it correct that you never told 17 Ms. Goldberg that you were there when they 18 came in with hand trucks of FBI files? 19 A It's correct to say that that is 20 apparently Lucianne Goldberg's interpretation 21 of what I told her. 22 Q It's not an accurate 660 1 interpretation; isn't that what you testified 2 to? 3 A Hand trucks would be inaccurate. 4 Loading or unloading meaning from a hand 5 truck would be inaccurate. 6 Q Then there was something about 7 encrypted? 8 A Right. 9 Q You said that was not an accurate 10 recitation of what you told Ms. Goldberg? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 12 answered, the testimony speaks for itself. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, please 14 don't interrupt my questions and make 15 objections. You're obviously perfectly 16 entitled to make objections once I'm 17 finished. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, well let 19 me -- 20 MR. GAFFNEY: But, please, let me 21 finish the question before you make the 22 objection. 661 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine, I just 2 want to make it clear to the witness as well 3 as to you that I may object and while I don't 4 represent the witness, I would ask that maybe 5 there be a little hesitation to allow me to 6 object. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I have no problem 8 whatsoever with that. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Now the bit about the screen 12 flashing up encrypted, Mr. Klayman asked you, 13 again this is on page 139, is that an 14 accurate recitation of what you told Lucianne 15 Goldberg and you responded no. 16 A No, it's not. Let me just clarify, 17 it's not that, it appears to be a compilation 18 of two different issues confused in the 19 recitation. 20 The word encrypted, if I used it at 21 all, did not have to do with FBI files. It 22 had to do with another issue on Deb Gorham's 662 1 machine when it was located in the West Wing 2 prior to its being moved. 3 What I had told Lucianne Goldberg 4 at the time was that it had been alarming to 5 me that when I tried to enter data from a 6 caller that I was working with on a tainted 7 blood issue, that every time I entered a word 8 that had to do with this particular issue, it 9 would flash up either the word encrypted or 10 password required or something to indicate 11 the file was locked. Had nothing to do with 12 FBI files. 13 Q So Ms. Goldberg got it a little bit 14 wrong; is that fair to say? 15 A As I said, it appears that she's 16 confused at least two issues. 17 Q Did you asks Lucianne Goldberg to 18 call the Post back and have them correct the 19 misimpression the article gave? 20 A You must be joking. 21 Q Did you do anything to correct the 22 false impression that this article -- 663 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to 2 relevance. Don't even answer the question. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Excuse me, is that an 4 instruction not to answer on the basis of 5 relevance? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I think that's a 7 ridiculous question. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Your objection is 9 noted and your instruction is noted. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Are you going to follow your 12 attorney's instruction not to answer that 13 question? 14 A I'm sorry, could you repeat the 15 question. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you repeat the 17 question. 18 (The reporter read the record as 19 requested.) 20 THE WITNESS: That this article? 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q Conveyed? 664 1 A Well, I'm still confused as to why 2 you think this is one article I should have 3 corrected when I have read so very few 4 articles about me since January of '98 that 5 are accurate. 6 Q You testified on the 5th that you 7 saw -- 8 A On the 5th? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: 5th of what? 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q I'm sorry, you testified on the 5th 12 of January regarding seeing what possibly 13 could have looked like Rose law firm files in 14 the safe of Mr. Foster? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, 16 mischaracterizes testimony. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, could you 18 repeat, forgive me. 19 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 20 Q With regard to the materials that 21 you saw in Mr. Foster's safe that you think 22 could have been Rose law firm files; do you 665 1 recall that testimony? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. The 3 testimony speaks for itself. Give her an 4 opportunity to review it. 5 THE WITNESS: Can we look at the 6 testimony? 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q Sure. Well, it was testified to at 9 length. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then let her 11 read it at length. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Did Mr. Klayman earlier today show 14 you documents that he represented to be Rose 15 law firm files or copies of documents that he 16 represented to be Rose law firm files? 17 A No. 18 Q In your testimony earlier to 19 Mr. Gilligan about conversations you had had 20 with Mr. Klayman earlier today, you mentioned 21 something about him asking you questions 22 about the Rose law firm files. 666 1 A Correct. 2 Q Did he show you anything? 3 A He didn't. I was shown something, 4 however. 5 Q Who showed those to you? 6 A My attorney. 7 Q Do you recall how thick the 8 documents were that you saw in Mr. Foster's 9 safe that you think might have been the Rose 10 law firm files? 11 A My recollection remains the same, 12 that what I thought I saw appeared very like 13 what I had seen a graphic, superimposed on 14 the television screen, except that my 15 recollection was that if the documents were 16 horizontal, this way, that there was a fold 17 of some sort on perhaps the one end, a third 18 of the documents (indicating). That's what I 19 recall. 20 Q Do you recall what about these 21 documents made you associate them with 22 Mrs. Clinton? 667 1 A I don't. My recollection seems to 2 be that it may have been her initials, but 3 I'm not sure. I don't, I don't have a 4 specific recollection. 5 I know at the time whatever I saw 6 made me believe they belonged to 7 Mrs. Clinton. 8 Q According to the materials that Ken 9 Starr submitted in connection with his work, 10 that you met with people from his office more 11 than 23 times between January and June 12 of 1998. 13 MR. DITKOFF: I'm going to object 14 to this. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Your objection is 16 noted. 17 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 18 Q Is that correct? 19 A I'm sorry? 20 Q Did you meet with Ken Starr's 21 office at least 23 times between January and 22 June of 1998? 668 1 A If that's a representation of how 2 many times I was there, I'd certainly 3 stipulate, except that many of the times did 4 not involve any interaction between myself 5 and members of the OIC. It was for other 6 purposes. 7 Q But is it fair to say you met 8 with -- 9 A It's fair to say I was there that 10 many times if that's the record, yes. 11 Q You met with investigators or 12 lawyers repeatedly during that period? 13 A Yes, but not all of the 23 times. 14 In fact, many of the 23 times were not with 15 lawyers or investigators. 16 Q Is it correct that you never once 17 mentioned to them during that time that you 18 saw what may have been Rose law firm billing 19 records in Vince Foster's safe in 1993? 20 A It's correct to say that we tabled 21 any discussions outside the parameters of the 22 Lewinsky zone, as we referred to it, until 669 1 later, and later never came. 2 Q But the answer to my question is 3 that there was never any discussion or you 4 didn't ever volunteer this information to 5 them; is that correct? 6 A As I stated and I'll state it 7 again, any of the information I had about the 8 Travel Office, about files, about anything at 9 all having to do with any so-called scandals 10 that were being investigated by the OIC were 11 tabled until the conclusion of the Lewinsky 12 portion of the investigation. So, we 13 discussed only, in those times -- 14 Q Well, before it was tabled, did you 15 have any discussion? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you let her 17 finish her answer. She wasn't finished. 18 THE WITNESS: There was, in my 19 opinion, it appeared as though there was no 20 time to discuss anything but this issue, the 21 current issue, and that involved a great deal 22 of time on my part, as well as theirs. 670 1 I always fully expected them to 2 return to the other issues. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q They have not? 5 A No. 6 Q Could you look at page 71 of your 7 December 14th testimony. 8 A Uh-huh. 9 Q On line 8 Mr. Klayman is 10 questioning you about you and Ms. Gorham 11 going through the contents of the safe in 12 Mr. Nussbaum's office; correct? 13 A It appears that way, yes. 14 Q Then on line 13 he asked the 15 question tell me everything you observed and 16 then you testify actually for some number of 17 pages. 18 A I'm sorry? 19 Q Do you see that you testified for 20 some number of pages, correct? 21 A What do you mean? 22 Q Well, you talk about what you saw 671 1 in the safe for some number of pages; isn't 2 that correct? 3 A Number of pages? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, she hasn't 5 had a chance to read it. Are you talking 6 about for the following several pages of 7 testimony? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: That's correct. 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, I don't know, I 10 haven't read it. Apparently if you say so. 11 I can read the answer I gave at 12 that point that I saw files in a file drawer. 13 What is your question? 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Notwithstanding the question from 16 Mr. Klayman to tell him everything you 17 observed, you never said anywhere in this 18 first day of testimony that you saw something 19 that you thought were the Rose law firm 20 records in the file, correct? 21 A What I said was I saw files in the 22 file drawer. Did I say what was in each file 672 1 or what I saw, no. 2 Q Well, you talked at some detail 3 about Mr. Kennedy's file, right? 4 A We were talking about FBI files, I 5 thought. I can't represent to you today that 6 what I saw was the Rose law firm billing 7 records or not. I can tell you what I 8 believe they were. 9 Q Does the book proposal you worked 10 on with Maggie Gallagher make any reference 11 to the Rose law firm billing records you 12 think you may have seen? 13 A I don't recall right now. I'm 14 going to review it and give it to you. 15 Q Thank you. 16 A We'll be able to determine that 17 then. 18 Q Would it be fair to say, Ms. Tripp, 19 that you're biased against Mrs. Clinton? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, calls for 21 a conclusion, legal conclusion. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Biased in what 673 1 way? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: It's just a question. 3 THE WITNESS: In January of 1999, I 4 believe I probably do have a bias, yes. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Why are you biased against her? 7 A Because of the events that have 8 transpired over the last several years. I've 9 come to have my own belief that what I saw 10 and what is presented to the public are two 11 very different things. 12 Q Now at least in the Summer of 1996, 13 you had hoped to write a book that would make 14 enough money that if you lost your job, you 15 could afford, you could afford to lose your 16 job; is that correct? 17 A Well, first of all, it wasn't if, 18 it was certainly when. I don't think anyone 19 gives up an 18, at that time, a 17, 18 year 20 Government career lightly and certainly not 21 with some dilution of making a lot of money 22 on one book. 674 1 It was something that I felt very 2 strongly about in terms of getting the 3 material out and -- 4 Q But you weren't going to do it 5 unless you made enough money that if you lost 6 your job you wouldn't be destitute, correct? 7 A Well, certainly I needed to ensure 8 that I could provide for my family, that's 9 true. 10 Q You had some discussions with 11 Ms. Goldberg about how much money one might 12 make off a book like this? 13 A We discussed the likelihood of 14 certain dollar amounts for an advance versus 15 royalties, yes. 16 It was I think wise to remember 17 that the 17 year career I had at that point 18 also involved benefits to include retirement, 19 all of which I would have lost, in great 20 part. 21 Q You testified in your Grand Jury to 22 some extent about those discussions you had 675 1 with Ms. Goldberg about how much money you 2 might make or would need to make off a book? 3 A I'm quite certain I did, that's 4 right. 5 Q Have you recently received a large 6 sum of money from any source? 7 A No. Can you point me in the right 8 direction? 9 Q Are you aware of a report in the 10 press recently that you were looking at 11 a 650,000 dollar house? 12 A Yeah, I've read that, yes. 13 Q Is that report accurate? 14 A Only partially. 15 Q Tell me how it's accurate. 16 A It's accurate in that I have looked 17 at properties over the last two years, 18 probably, in different locations and in 19 different States. 20 For the most part, for my family, 21 and I guess I should go on and say, my mother 22 lost her husband in March of '96 and her dad 676 1 in November of '96, both of whom left her 2 what to us would be considered substantial 3 amounts of money and her plan is to build a 4 family compound somewhere for my sister and I 5 and she and the rest of the family can live. 6 So, I have looked in different 7 locations, as have other family members in 8 other locations. But the -- 9 Q Are you currently writing a book? 10 A No. 11 Q So I assume you haven't received a 12 book advance recently from anyone? 13 A No. 14 Q During the January 5th session of 15 your deposition Mr. Zaccagnini was joking I 16 think with Mr. Gilligan about offered to bet 17 the entire amount of your legal defense fund. 18 You made a comment, that's easy for you to 19 say now that you're being paid. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Is someone paying your legal fees? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 677 1 Relevance, instruct you not to answer that 2 question. That is privileged material. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Are you instructing 4 her on privilege or are you instructing her 5 on relevance? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm instructing 7 her on privilege and relevance, more on 8 privilege. I'm instructing her not to answer 9 the question on privilege. I'm objecting to 10 the question on relevancy, privilege. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Is it your position, 12 Mr. Zaccagnini, that I may not ask whether 13 someone is paying her legal fees? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, you can ask 15 her that question. 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q Is someone paying your legal fees? 18 A I'm sorry, you mean someone, one 19 person paying my legal fees? 20 Q Yes. 21 A No. 22 Q Has any individual offered to pay 678 1 your legal fees? 2 A Oh, no, I wish. I don't have a 3 Walter Kaye. 4 Q I gather you had mailed out a fund 5 raising letter recently? 6 A My second, actually. 7 Q When was your first fund raising 8 letter? 9 A I'm not sure. Prior to the second 10 one. 11 Q Was it this summer, around the time 12 of your Grand Jury testimony? 13 A I'm just not positive. You'd have 14 to check with the direct mail people. 15 Q Who are the direct mail people? 16 A I'm not sure of their name, but you 17 can get that from Mr. Cowder, my spokesperson 18 who deals with the direct mail people. 19 We have a -- I have had for many 20 months a legal defense fund, as does the 21 President, and there have been, to my 22 knowledge, two, in fact, two letters over my 679 1 signature soliciting requests for donations 2 for the legal defense fund. 3 Q Did you draft those letters? 4 A I worked very, very closely with 5 Philip Cowder and one of the direct mail 6 folks to write that letter, yes. 7 Q Is there any reference in the first 8 fund raising letter to the FBI files matter? 9 A I don't recall. I'd have to see 10 it. 11 Q Is there any reference in the 12 second fund raising letter to the FBI files 13 matter? 14 A To the best of my knowledge, the 15 letters are the same. They are just two 16 mailings. I'd have to see the letter. 17 Q Who are these mailed to? 18 A I don't know. They are mailed to 19 people whom, a list that are maintained by a 20 direct mail corporation. I guess much the 21 same way the President's would be. 22 Q Would it be fair to say that they 680 1 are mailed to people who one might expect to 2 be hostile to the Clintons? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 4 relevance to this line of questions. You can 5 answer it. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't think they 7 get their lists from the DNC. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q Well, could you answer my question? 10 A But I don't know. 11 Q Well, would you -- 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I object, vague and 13 ambiguous. How do you define hostile? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm 15 hostile to the Clinton Administration, so I'm 16 afraid I can't answer that. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't we take a 18 break to change the tape. Could you give me 19 a time reading? 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 21 at 4:10 p.m. 22 (Recess) 681 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 2 at 4:23 p.m. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Ms. Tripp, are you currently under 5 investigation for making false statements to 6 the Grand Jury here in the District of 7 Columbia? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Did you testify at the Grand Jury 10 that you were a subject of the OIC's 11 investigation? 12 A No, I would not have said I was a 13 subject. I don't believe ever I would have 14 used the word subject. I've come to 15 understand the meaning of the word subject. 16 Q Are you under investigation for any 17 statements you made to the OIC? 18 A You would have to ask the OIC. I 19 know that -- 20 Q Has anyone ever told you that you 21 were under investigation for any statements 22 you made to the OIC? 682 1 A I believe we were told that I was 2 not a target. There were questions that I'm 3 sure you read in the record about the 4 possibility of tapes being duplicated. 5 I've said for the record and will 6 say again -- 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, hold 8 on. 9 (Counsel conferred with witness) 10 THE WITNESS: I can't say anything, 11 sorry. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Why can't you say anything? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm advising my 15 client not to make any further comment as it 16 relates to that question. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: On the basis of what? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Because it could 19 tend to incriminate her with respect to 20 acknowledging the existence of any evidence 21 which she might have provided to the 22 Independent Counsel's Office. 683 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me also say for 2 the record, although I don't really have to, 3 that under the rules of Civil Procedure, I'm 4 preserving any substantive objections for 5 possible use at trial. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you read the 7 question back. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: It wasn't the 9 question as much as what the answer was going 10 to be. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I understand that. 12 Could you read the question back. 13 (The reporter read the record as 14 requested.) 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q What will you say for the record? 17 A That I don't acknowledge the 18 existence of tapes. 19 Q You don't acknowledge the existence 20 of tapes you may have made? 21 A No. 22 Q Are you under investigation for any 684 1 statements you made to the FBI? 2 A Same answer. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just ask, 4 Ms. Weissmann, I don't think laughing is 5 appropriate. 6 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 7 Q What's the same answer? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, I object. I 9 object to the decorum of Counsel for the 10 Justice Department is laughing at this. I 11 don't find that funny. 12 MS. WEISMANN: Mr. Klayman, I 13 certainly disagree with your characterization 14 of my behavior and I think your statement is 15 totally inappropriate. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I ask you not 17 to laugh. I think that's disrespectful. 18 MS. WEISMANN: I have not shown any 19 disrespect for this witness. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q When you say the same answer, what 22 do you mean the same answer? 685 1 A Your questions have to do with a 2 subject which I cannot acknowledge publicly 3 having to do with something that's being 4 investigated in the State of Maryland right 5 now, and so. 6 Q Are you under criminal 7 investigation in the State of Maryland? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Have you been given any indication 10 by Maryland authorities that they've cleared 11 you of any criminal wrongdoing? 12 A Have I been given any? 13 Q Indication by the authorities in 14 Maryland that you've been cleared of any 15 criminal wrongdoing? 16 A Oh, certainly not. Mrs. Clinton 17 hasn't allowed them to do that yet. 18 Q Do you have any factual basis for 19 making that statement that Mrs. Clinton has 20 anything to do with the criminal 21 investigation that you are under in the State 22 of Maryland? 686 1 A Do I have any factual information? 2 Q Yes. 3 A Early on I heard through various 4 press outlets that Mrs. Clinton and her 5 people had been in touch with Stenny Hoyer 6 and with Kathleen Kennedy Townsend and with 7 Mr. Montanerelli's boss. 8 Q Who told you that? 9 A Various press sources. 10 Q Who are they? 11 A I don't know. You'd have to ask my 12 publicist, so. 13 Q It's true, isn't it that, that you 14 tape recorded -- 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q A resident of -- 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Please let me finish 19 my question. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q It's true that you tape recorded a 22 resident of the District of Columbia from 687 1 your home in Maryland without her consent; is 2 that correct? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 4 object to the question. 5 I will instruct the witness not to 6 answer the question because it could violate 7 her Fifth Amendment privilege. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I understand your 9 advice to her, but that objection needs to be 10 invoked by the witness. 11 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 12 Q Are you invoking that objection to 13 the question? 14 A I'm sorry, on the advice of 15 counsel, I am, yes. 16 Q You are refusing to answer that 17 question on the ground that it may tend to 18 incriminate you? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: She's refusing to 20 answer the question on the advice of Counsel. 21 THE WITNESS: Correct. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: On what basis? 688 1 THE WITNESS: He is my attorney. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q Are you invoking your Fifth 4 Amendment rights in response to that 5 question? 6 A I'm refusing to answer on the 7 advice of counsel. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: What is the basis for 9 the refusal to answer? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, it's two 11 bases, one is the Judge has already 12 instructed that any information related to 13 that investigation, I believe, is out of 14 bounds. I believe it's beyond the scope of 15 permissible discovery in this deposition. 16 Secondarily, as I've already 17 indicated, that I've advised my client not to 18 respond to that question on the basis that it 19 may incriminate her. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Are you going to accept your 22 attorney's advice? 689 1 A I am, yes. 2 Q Have you ever taken a lie detector 3 test? 4 A Yes. 5 Q How many times? 6 A At least once. 7 Q More than once? 8 A I can't remember if I took one when 9 I worked for Delta Force. I know there was a 10 roster of those random as the drug testing 11 program at the White House, but I don't think 12 my turn came up. 13 So I think the only one that I can 14 recall is the one I had this past year. 15 Q Did you testify truthfully in front 16 of the Grand Jury concerning your plans over 17 the years to write a book? 18 A I'm sorry? 19 Q Did you testify truthfully to the 20 Grand Jury concerning your plans you had to 21 write a book? 22 A I testified truthfully at all times 690 1 to the Grand Jury. 2 Q We've already discussed earlier the 3 book proposal that Maggie Gallagher prepared 4 and that you rejected; is that fair to say 5 that she prepared a book proposal that you 6 rejected? 7 A It's fair to say that I withdrew 8 from the project. 9 Q Your Grand Jury testimony I believe 10 was that that occurred in August of 1996; 11 does that sound right? 12 A June of '96. I believe that was 13 the year that Gary Aldrich's book came out, 14 so yes. 15 Q You testified in front of the Grand 16 Jury, tell me if you recall this, that when I 17 threw away the book idea in August 1996, I 18 was completely finished with it. 19 A That's true. 20 Q Is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now you also testified to the Grand 691 1 Jury regarding the reasons for your taping 2 Ms. Lewinsky in 1997; is that correct? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll advise you 4 not to answer that question on the basis 5 that, for two bases, one is the Judge has 6 already instructed that any information 7 related to the Lewinsky investigation is 8 beyond the scope of permissible discovery in 9 this case. 10 Secondarily, because a response to 11 that question may incriminate you in 12 violation of your Fifth Amendment privilege. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Let's see if we can 14 get around your concerns there. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Did you testify to the Grand Jury 17 that in the Fall of 1997, that "there was no 18 book proposal at that time, there is no book 19 proposal and this had nothing to do with the 20 book proposal?" 21 A Correct. 22 Q Was that truthful testimony? 692 1 A Yes. 2 Q Do you recall telling the Grand 3 Jury that "the main reason was to have 4 documentation for when under oath testimony 5 would take place?" 6 A I'm sorry, repeat. 7 Q In response to a question as to 8 circumstances that were occurring in the Fall 9 of 1997, you said the main reason was to have 10 documentation for when the under oath 11 testimony would take place. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to the 13 question on the basis that it's beyond the 14 scope of permissible discovery in this case 15 pursuant to Judge Lamberth's Order. 16 I'll instruct you not to answer the 17 question because it could potentially violate 18 your Fifth Amendment privilege in its 19 self-incrimination. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Do you recall receiving questions 22 from grand jurors concerning your plans to 693 1 write a book? 2 A Vaguely. 3 Q Do you recall stating in response 4 to one question, "it was not, it was not what 5 we were looking to do, and when I say that 6 with all candor, I, when I threw away the 7 book idea in August of 1996, I was completely 8 finished with it?" 9 A What is your question? 10 Q Do you recall that testimony? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q Was that accurate testimony? 13 A Yes, it was. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: I ask the court 15 reporter to mark this as Exhibit 11. 16 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 11 17 was marked for identification.) 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q Can you identify this document for 20 me Ms. Tripp? 21 A Repeat, please. 22 Q Can you identify this document for 694 1 me? 2 A Can I identify it? 3 Q Yeah. 4 A I'm assuming you can, you handed it 5 to me. 6 Q Have you ever seen this document 7 before? 8 A I have no independent recollection 9 of seeing it. I'm looking at it. It says 10 it's the Goldberg tape, so I'm assuming 11 that's accurate. 12 Q It appears to be a transcript of 13 the tape between you and Ms. Goldberg; is 14 that correct? 15 A It appears to be. 16 Q Just to state for the record, it's 17 several pages long and it's a transcript, a 18 number of pages indicated on each page; is 19 that fair to say? 20 A The one that you have provided me 21 has four pages of transcript, four 8-by-10 22 Xerox pages of transcript and the rest 695 1 appears to be indexed verbiage. 2 Q Let's look at the first page. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let me just ask 4 for a point of clarification, I'm sorry to 5 interrupt you, does this document, to the 6 best of your knowledge, Mr. Gaffney, derive 7 from the Lewinsky investigation? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not under oath 9 here and I'm not being questioned. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I understand. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You have a duty as an 12 officer of the Court to identify what it is 13 you're providing Ms. Tripp. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Ms. Tripp, I'm going to tell you 16 that this is what appears to be a transcript 17 of a conversation between you and 18 Ms. Goldberg. 19 Let's look at the first page, do 20 you see it's broken down into six pages. It 21 says page 2 on the middle of the first page, 22 and there's a statement from you to 696 1 Ms. Goldberg, "I thought about you at various 2 times over the last year and I wanted to -- 3 to chat with you about something that is 4 completely ridiculous." Do you see that? 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: For the record, I 6 want to object to this line of questioning as 7 being beyond the scope of permission 8 discovery. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Your objection is 10 noted. 11 THE WITNESS: I see that. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Do you recall making that 14 statement? 15 A No. 16 Q Does that refresh your recollection 17 whether this is a conversation you had with 18 Ms. Goldberg in late September 1997? 19 A It appears to be, so. 20 Q Over the next, when I say pages, 21 I'm talking about the subdivided pages that 22 appear on this, on each page. 697 1 A Correct. 2 Q Over the next several pages you are 3 talking about conveying information to her 4 about Monica Lewinsky, correct? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Let's look at the second page, it 7 says page 9 at the bottom left; do you see 8 that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Right at the end, after you've been 11 telling this information to Ms. Goldberg, she 12 asks you a question, correct? 13 A After I had been what? 14 Q You had been talking for some time, 15 correct? 16 A Eight pages of transcript. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm sorry, page 9, 18 is there a specific question you're referring 19 to? 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Well, you have been talking with 22 her for some time about Monica Lewinsky, 698 1 correct? 2 A What do you mean by some time? 3 Q Well, for eight and a half pages of 4 transcript, correct? 5 A This conversation purports to be 6 eight pages of dialogue prior to the point 7 that you're asking me about. 8 Q Right, okay. You have conveyed to 9 her certain information about Monica Lewinsky 10 in this conversation, correct? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Again, I'm going 12 to reiterate my prior objection to this line 13 of questioning because I think the judge is 14 very clear in his order that anything related 15 to the Lewinsky investigation is beyond the 16 scope of permissible discovery in this case. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: He said nothing in 18 his order about my ability to take 19 cross-examination on issues of credibility 20 and bias. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I understand 22 that, but if they effect, in my opinion, if 699 1 they derive from the Lewinsky investigation, 2 I beg to differ. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, we have a -- 4 we'll agree to disagree. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Do you see Ms. Goldberg asks you, 7 "how do you see using this information, in a 8 book, or..." do you see that? 9 A What line, please? 10 Q That's line 24 on page 9. 11 A Uh-huh. 12 Q Could you read what is attributed 13 to you there in response to her question? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't you go 15 ahead and read it first, before you -- 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q Could you read it aloud, please. 18 THE WITNESS: You said read it 19 first? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, read it to 21 yourself, first. 22 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 700 1 Q I'd real it aloud. You are saying 2 here, "I don't know. I mean, I was working 3 on, right now my, my attorney has virtually 4 all my files, but prior to that I just 5 scrubbed the whole Maggie product and started 6 from scratch and had to come up with a whole 7 different spin." Correct, that's what that 8 says? 9 A That's what that says. 10 Q Maggie there is referring to Maggie 11 Gallagher, correct? 12 A Apparently. 13 Q It was sort of less, you know, on 14 this, you know, Morris County hick who 15 happened upon the White House and left all 16 that out and just started with, you know, a 17 basic introduction about how it all began and 18 a very brief portion on the, on the Bush 19 White House, and then, boom, right into the 20 stars and the Oval and the Clinton White 21 House; do you see that? 22 A I see that. 701 1 Q Didn't you testify to the Grand 2 Jury that when you scrapped the Maggie 3 Gallagher project, the book proposal was 4 over? 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 6 question as beyond the scope of permissible 7 discovery in this case and instruct my client 8 not to respond. 9 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 10 Q Are you going to accept your 11 attorney's instruction on that? Are you 12 going to accept -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Just word of advice 14 here, if you guys are conferring, you may be 15 being recording right now and it's 16 attorney-client. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's okay. We 18 understand that. The question again, was? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you laughing 20 again, Ms. Weismann? I don't find it 21 appropriate to laugh in the middle of this 22 deposition. 702 1 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you read the 2 question back, please? 3 MS. WEISMANN: I don't find the 4 mischaracterization of our conduct as 5 appropriate either, Mr. Klayman. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not a 7 mischaracterization. I'll swear to it under 8 oath. I'll take a polygraph. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: We know that. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: I would ask that this 12 exchange not count against my time. 13 (The reporter read the record as 14 requested.) 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q How come you didn't tell them that 18 you started from scratch? 19 A Because that would not have been 20 true. 21 Q So you're not telling the truth to 22 Ms. Goldberg here? 703 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q Are you telling the truth to 4 Ms. Goldberg here? 5 THE WITNESS: What's the objection? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, you can go 7 ahead and answer it. 8 THE WITNESS: I can answer it. 9 Ms. Goldberg and I had come to a parting of 10 the ways in August of '94 -- no, I'm sorry, 11 August of '96. We had not parted on 12 particularly good terms at that time. She 13 did not appreciate my position. I didn't 14 appreciate hers. 15 The last words Lucianne Goldberg 16 said to me in August of '94 were to the 17 effect who do you think you are, the Queen of 18 England. 19 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 20 Q Right, I'm aware of all of that. 21 A So, this interchange, I believe, if 22 I'm not mistaken, looks to me like it 704 1 represents my first contact with Lucianne 2 after that 14 month or whatever it was 3 period. 4 Q Correct, that's what it appears to 5 be. 6 A What I represented to Lucianne that 7 day and what was true are two separate 8 things. 9 Q So you're saying you didn't start 10 from scratch at that point? 11 A I have done nothing and had done 12 nothing at that point. I still to this day 13 have done nothing. 14 Q So you weren't telling Ms. Goldberg 15 the truth there; is that fair to say? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q Let's go down a little further, 18 you're talking about that same page, page 10, 19 line 22, Ms. Goldberg, now, have you 20 considered going to Isikoff and going off the 21 record with him. You respond, "Oh, I could 22 do that in a minute, but then he'd write the 705 1 book, or he'd write the whole thing." 2 Ms. Goldberg says, "No, he has only 3 a certain amount of space." You say, "Oh, 4 no, he's working on a book deal. He's going 5 to do all the President's women kind of 6 thing." 7 Then Ms. Goldberg responds, "Well 8 then we make a deal with Isikoff, that's 9 here's -- here's the information we'll give 10 to you. Here's just enough documentation for 11 you to do the story, but -- but the rest of 12 it belongs to Linda, because she's doing a 13 book. He would have to honor that if he 14 wanted the story." You respond, "yeah, I 15 would think so." 16 How come you didn't tell 17 Ms. Goldberg at this point that you weren't 18 interested in a book? 19 A Ms. Goldberg is a literary agent. 20 I needed Ms. Goldberg's help and I spoke to 21 her the way I thought would be most effective 22 as a means to an end. 706 1 Q But, you're conveying to her that 2 you're interested in doing a book, correct? 3 A Yes, that's right. 4 Q That's false? 5 A Is it false? 6 Q Were you falsely conveying to her 7 that you were interested in doing a book? 8 A Yeah, I had no interest in writing 9 a book at that time. My interest was in 10 getting this information in the public 11 domain, preferably with as little risk to me 12 as possible. Preferably without my name 13 being attached to it. 14 Q Then she goes on to say, this is at 15 line 18, "But now you are ready to go public 16 because you weren't a year ago and she's 17 referring to your deciding not to go forward 18 with the Gallagher proposal." Correct? 19 A Apparently. 20 Q "I'm so fed up, I have watched this 21 girl, I can tell you that she calls at 22 least 10 times a day." 707 1 So you're now ready, at least 2 you're conveying to Ms. Goldberg that you're 3 ready to come forward, correct? 4 A I was ready for the information to 5 come out, absolutely, yes. 6 Q Let's go to the next page, it says 7 page 13 at the top, line 15. 8 A Excuse me, just one moment. I'm 9 sorry, could you repeat? 10 Q Next page, it says page 13 at the 11 top. 12 A Uh-huh. 13 Q Line 15, and you say, but look, 14 it's like, once again I am less hesitant than 15 I was before. I'm ready to, and then she 16 says, well, that's good. Yeah, that is 17 really good. It took a long time. 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q Then you talk about what might 20 happen if you lose your job and that you're 21 going to get a job. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 708 1 THE WITNESS: Just read it. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: We are just 3 waiting for the question. 4 THE WITNESS: Somewhere. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: The documents speaks 6 for itself, I just want to make it clear. 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q So you're telling her at this point 9 that you're -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, wait, let me 11 make my objection. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm sorry, go ahead. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: The document speaks 14 for itself. I'm just going to make it clear 15 that my continuing objection as to matters of 16 substance remains. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Okay. 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q Now, you're saying you're less 20 hesitant than you were before to write a 21 book, right? 22 A No, what I'm saying is I'm less 709 1 hesitant -- well you can interpret this any 2 way you'd like. 3 What I'm telling you for the record 4 and under oath is I was less hesitant about 5 it surfacing, knowing that my name may be 6 associated with it, and I was ready to go 7 forward. 8 Q So you're saying this has nothing 9 to do with writing a book? 10 A No, we were even discussing going 11 to the tabloids. We didn't know about the 12 Independent Counsel option at that point. 13 Anything to get the heinous material out in 14 the public domain was the intent. 15 Q You talked about going to the 16 tabloids so you could make money off of it, 17 correct? 18 A No, I don't think you understand. 19 Q Well, you could go to Mr. Isikoff, 20 right, but you also discussed the tabloids? 21 A I had gone to Mr. Isikoff, at 22 length. Off the record, he had everything, 710 1 so that was completely disingenuous, the 2 portion that said he could write his book. 3 Q Let's go to page 15. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think she's 5 finished, Mr. Gaffney. 6 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 7 Q Are you finished? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay, please finish. 10 A If this were about writing a book, 11 had that been the intent all along, a money 12 maker, as you seem to think, then that's 13 precisely where I would have gone 14 January 12th of '98. 15 I think that the last year has been 16 veritable proof that the story has great 17 interest. Had that been my goal, I think I 18 could have done it. 19 That was not my goal. My goal was 20 to get it out in to the public domain and to 21 expose the behavior and to ensure that I was 22 not going to be called the liar under oath. 711 1 I've done that. 2 Q Let's look at page 15. 3 Ms. Goldberg says at line I think it's 5, 4 it's hard to read. "I'm very interested in 5 this, needless to say, I mean." And you say, 6 "I'm glad." 7 She says, "My tabloid heart beats 8 loud." You laugh. She says, "I think, just 9 hearing it for the first time and without 10 talking to you again, I think we can make a 11 deal with -- with Isikoff that protects you 12 totally, that gets the surface of this out 13 and lets you stand back and fill in the 14 pieces and I get you a publisher that will be 15 happy to do that." 16 Do you see that? 17 A I do. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Is there a 19 question? 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q You respond, "All right, well let's 22 talk again." 712 1 Now you didn't tell her that at 2 this point I'm not interested in doing a 3 book? You didn't tell her that, did you? 4 A We met with Isikoff. We talked to 5 Isikoff. We never discussed a book with a 6 publisher. 7 Q But you discussed it with 8 Ms. Goldberg? 9 A Oh, yeah. This is my first 10 conversation with Lucianne. 11 Q There's nowhere so far that you've 12 expressed any disinterest in writing a book 13 in this conversation? 14 A In this conversation, no. 15 Q Because you were interested in 16 writing a book? 17 A No, I was not. I was interested in 18 getting the information in to the public 19 domain any way possible. 20 If it meant a book and it meant 21 that that was the only way to do it, I was 22 certainly not -- I didn't have any problem 713 1 with that. I was ready to come forward. 2 Q All right, let's turn to the next 3 page, page 19 says at the top, and you ask at 4 line 15, "So, all right, so what, what, what 5 is my next move, what do I do?" 6 She responds, "Your next move is 7 to -- for the next 24 hours, think about 8 going to Isikoff and write a list of demands 9 you want to talk to him." 10 Now she's talking about demands of 11 what he can publish and what you can say for 12 your book, right? 13 A I don't remember this portion at 14 all. I know I never wrote a list. 15 Q Now I just have, I'm curious, if 16 all you needed to do was get this information 17 out and you weren't interested in writing a 18 book, then why did you need Ms. Goldberg's 19 help? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't 22 understand. 714 1 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 2 Q Why did you need Ms. Goldberg's 3 help? 4 A I didn't know where to go. Could I 5 have gone to the FBI after what I had seen; 6 doubtful. Could I have gone to the Justice 7 Department after what I had seen with Waco, 8 doubtful. Could I have gone to the Howard 9 County Police, I guess so. Who would have 10 believed me? 11 Q You could have gone to Mike 12 Isikoff, you already had conversations 13 with -- 14 A I had gone to Mike Isikoff. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Don't argue with 16 the witness. Please ask her a question, I 17 would appreciate that very much. 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q You could have just laid all this 20 out to Mike Isikoff, correct? 21 A Could I have? 22 Q In fact, she asked you -- 715 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, is there a 2 question pending? 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q You could have given it all to Mike 5 Isikoff, correct? 6 A I did give it to Mike Isikoff. 7 Q But not at this time, correct? 8 A No, not at that time. 9 Q In fact, going back to the second 10 page of the transcript on page 10, 11 Ms. Goldberg says, now had you considered 12 going to Isikoff and going off the record 13 with him. You say, oh, I could do that in a 14 minute, but then he'd write the book? 15 A Yes, that's what I said. However, 16 if you talk to Mike Isikoff, you'll find that 17 as of March 24th of '97, I had already given 18 him much of this information. The only thing 19 I did not do was name Ms. Lewinsky. 20 It was very important to me that 21 the truth get out. It was very important to 22 me that I be protected. 716 1 Q Now you began taping Ms. Lewinsky 2 after this conversation; is that correct? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. Again, 4 we'll reiterate the prior objection, that is, 5 it's beyond the scope of admissible discovery 6 in this case. 7 I'll instruct you not to respond to 8 the question on the basis that it is beyond 9 the scope of permissible discovery pursuant 10 to Judge Lamberth's Order and that it may 11 tend to incriminate you in violation of your 12 Fifth Amendment right in its 13 self-incrimination. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Are you going to accept your 16 attorney's instruction? 17 A Yes, I am. 18 Q Now, there's 20 pages of transcript 19 in this condensed, in these four pages; is 20 that correct? 21 A Well, I think we need to clarify 22 what you mean by 20 pages. Each page looks 717 1 to be about, what, under 20 lines each, so. 2 Q Well, on the fourth page of the 3 transcript there's something at the bottom 4 that says page 21 but it's only got a few 5 lines on it; is that correct? 6 A I'm sorry, at the bottom of? 7 Q The last page of transcript. Do 8 you see that, it says page 21 and it only 9 goes a few lines? 10 A Yes, uh-huh, yeah. 11 Q Now there's no reference in 12 this 20-page conversation to Robert Bennett, 13 the President's attorney, in the Paula Jones 14 case, is there? 15 A I haven't read the whole 16 transcript. I can't tell you. 17 Q Would you be surprised if there was 18 no reference to Mr. Bennett in this? 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: No. Lucianne 21 Goldberg leaked to the New York Post in 22 August of '97, following Mr. Bennett's 718 1 accusation that I was a liar in Newsweek, 2 essentially the story, the fact that I was a 3 witness to a sexual assault by the President 4 perpetrated on Kathleen Willey. She was 5 completely cognizant of what motivated me. 6 She wrote the article for the New York Post. 7 If that's not in this conversation, 8 it's in another conversation. She knew 9 precisely why I was ready to come forward. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Did you see any mention in this 12 about your being subpoenaed as a witness in 13 the Paula Jones case? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: I think I just 16 answered that. 17 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 18 Q When Ms. Goldberg repeatedly 19 proposed a book deal -- 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to the 21 characterization. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 719 1 Q Linda's book and I get you a 2 publisher, how come you never told her that 3 this was not about doing a book? 4 A Was there ever a book proposal 5 in 1997? 6 Q There was discussion of it. 7 A Was there a book proposal? Was 8 there ever anything submitted? 9 Q Well when she was discussing it, 10 how come you didn't tell her that, boy, this 11 isn't about a book? 12 A Let me repeat for at least the 13 fifth time, I didn't care at this point how 14 it got out. I was ready to risk everything, 15 my job, my livelihood, my economic future to 16 get this out. So, you may not like the 17 answer. That's the answer. 18 Q But there was a discussion of a 19 book proposal, correct? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, asked 21 and answered. 22 THE WITNESS: No, there -- 720 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Asked and 2 answered. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Let's mark this as 4 Exhibit 12. 5 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 12 6 was marked for identification.) 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Off the record, 8 please. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 10 at 4:35 p.m. 11 (Recess) 12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 13 at 4:54 p.m. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Ms. Tripp, can you identify what 16 has been marked as Exhibit 12? 17 A I can identify that it says 18 Goldberg tape 002. 19 Q Have you ever seen this document 20 before? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q You don't recall? 721 1 A I don't know that I've seen this 2 document before. 3 Q Do you recall seeing it before? 4 A Does I don't know not mean I don't 5 recall. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The question has 7 been answered. Next question, please. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q Let's look at, I'll represent to 10 you that this is what appears to be a 11 transcript of a telephone or a conversation 12 between you and Lucianne Goldberg and that it 13 post dates the one we just looked at. 14 A Okay. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't accept 16 that. What proof do you have? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: You don't need to 18 accept that, Mr. Klayman. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We say there's an 20 objection on the record and I hope you're 21 right, Mr. Gaffney, for your benefit. 22 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 722 1 Q Line 11 on page 4 Ms. Goldberg said 2 "Well, let's look at the very broad picture, 3 the big picture as to what is good for you. 4 What is good for you, um, in the -- in the 5 fullness of time, is a book, not, not just 6 about this thing that you're doing now." You 7 respond "Right." Do you see that? 8 A I do. 9 Q How come you didn't tell 10 Ms. Goldberg that this is not about a book? 11 A I was still speaking to Lucianne, 12 obviously disingenuously, about anything that 13 had to do with a literary venture with 14 Lucianne. I had alienated Lucianne the year 15 before, walked out on a proposal, in her 16 mind, queried a deal that she thought would 17 be extremely economically beneficial and now 18 I'm approaching her, yet again. 19 Q Are you finished? 20 A No. It's quite clear to me based 21 on these conversations that I approached her 22 with the accurate information and with less 723 1 accurate depiction of what I wanted to do 2 with it, at least in the beginning. 3 Q So to the extent these transcripts 4 seem to reflect you acquiescing in her 5 interest in a book, then you're misleading 6 Ms. Goldberg? 7 A That's too simplistic. What I was 8 trying to do was get this information out one 9 way or another. If it meant a book, I was 10 happy to do a book. 11 Q Well, that's what she's talking 12 about. 13 A My same concerns applied as they 14 had the year prior to this. In other words, 15 a year prior to this I withdrew with 16 trepidation, I was fearful. I was not ready 17 to go forward. 18 Fast forward to this time period 19 of 1997, I was disgusted, I was fed up, I 20 wanted the public to be aware of what I was 21 witnessing and Ms. Goldberg was about the 22 only person I could think about to go to. 724 1 To the extent that she's a literary 2 agent, we talked about various ways to 3 publish. It was not about a book. It was 4 about getting the information out. If it had 5 been about a book, we would have done a book 6 proposal and there would have been one at a 7 publisher or at least a bid for one in 8 January, not a trip to the Independent 9 Counsel. 10 Q Let's look at the next page where 11 it says, starting on sort of halfway down the 12 transcript page 8, line 7 you say "I've got 13 to tell you, I think, I think this has put 14 you in a sore spot and I apologize for that." 15 A I'm sorry, what line? 16 Q Line 7; do you see that? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Page 8, line 7. 18 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 19 Q Page 8. You've put her in a sore 20 spot? 21 A I see that. I'm not sure what that 22 means at this point, but go ahead. 725 1 Q She says, "Oh, no. It's a delicate 2 thing." And you say, "I know" "It's not --" 3 and you say, "I know, but --" Then 4 Ms. Goldberg says "It's not a sore spot, but 5 I am looking, I mean, my -- my ultimate goal 6 in this is that this information will become 7 public with you being protected -- and you 8 being able to, and you're being able to step 9 forward and tell an extraordinary story, I 10 mean, a story that will -- " 11 And then she says, "When he says, 12 no..." and "he" I'll tell you refers to 13 Mr. Isikoff, "When he says no -- in this 14 climate no publisher will touch it, I'm 15 sorry. But the attitude now in publishing is 16 "We don't give" -- I mean even the liberals 17 that were pro Clinton. "We don't give a 18 shit." Nobody cares about him anymore. We 19 just -- we need something that opens our eyes 20 about him. We don't care about protecting 21 him. We don't care if he lives or dies." 22 You say "Yeah." She says, "They 726 1 are so fed up." Referring obviously to the 2 book publishers. You say "Well." She says 3 "The climate is extremely good for this kind 4 of information." 5 You say "I would -- I would have 6 absolutely no qualms about going that way." 7 Do you see that? 8 A Yes, I do. 9 Q How come you didn't tell her that, 10 I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in writing 11 a book, that this isn't about a book? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered 13 about 100 times. 14 THE WITNESS: It was about getting 15 the information out any way possible. 16 Again, if I had had confidence in 17 the two agencies that happen to be 18 represented here at this table, based on my 19 experience, I didn't feel that there was a 20 place I could go to. 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q You told the Grand Jury that this 727 1 had nothing to do with a book proposal, 2 correct? 3 A That's correct, it had to do with 4 getting the information out, if it -- 5 Q But this is all talk about a book 6 proposal? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, asked 8 and answered. 9 THE WITNESS: Nice try. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: I'd like to have this 11 marked as Exhibit 13. 12 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 13 13 was marked for identification.) 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q I'm going to represent to you, 16 Ms. Tripp, that this is a transcript from 17 Meet The Press, July 12, 1998, that I printed 18 off of Nexus, I believe, and it is an episode 19 of Meet The Press on which your Counsel, 20 Mr. Zaccagnini, appeared. 21 I'd ask you to turn to the page 22 that says page 5 at the top right-hand 728 1 corner. 2 A I'm going to read up until page 5, 3 if you don't mind. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Okay, let's go off 5 the record, please. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I object to going 7 off the record. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I get a proffer 9 here? Are we off the record? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Yes. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, we are not, I 12 objected. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Well then I'll ask my 14 question. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Let's look at the bottom of page 4. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you let her read 18 it? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, there's no need 20 to read through the entire transcript and I 21 don't want to burn up all my time. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: If you show her a 729 1 document -- 2 MR. GAFFNEY: She's not entitled to 3 read it. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She's entitled to 5 read the entire document if you put the 6 entire document in front of her. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Let's mark this as 8 Deposition Exhibit 13, please. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: There's already a 10 Deposition Exhibit 13 already. 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Let's mark this as 12 Exhibit 14. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it something 14 different than we just gave? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: No, but it allows me 16 to get to the points quicker without burning 17 up 20 minutes. 18 MR. DITKOFF: What pages are 19 Exhibit 14? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Page 4 and 5. 21 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 14 22 was marked for identification.) 730 1 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 2 Q I'd ask you to take a look at 3 what's been marked as Exhibit 14, two-thirds 4 down the page Mr. Russert is asking a 5 question to Mr. Zaccagnini that concludes, 6 talking about you, wasn't her motivation in 7 talking to Monica Lewinsky to help contribute 8 to that book? 9 Mr. Zaccagnini responds, absolutely 10 not, explains some of the circumstances of 11 your dealings with Ms. Goldberg in the Summer 12 of '96. 13 Then he says the last paragraph on 14 the page, so Linda in August of 1996 decided 15 to stop the book proposal. There was no 16 mention in that book proposal of Monica 17 Lewinsky, despite the fact that Linda had 18 known Monica for four or five months. 19 That paragraph goes on for another 20 sentence. Then he says in October of 1997 21 when Linda reaches out to Lucianne for advice 22 on what had become a rather untenable 731 1 situation, again, there's no discussion at 2 any time, subsequent to October 1997, of any 3 book deal that relates to Monica Lewinsky. 4 To say that Linda contemplated a 5 book deal about Monica Lewinsky, about what 6 she knew about Monica Lewinsky is absolutely 7 untrue; do you see that? 8 A I can't put this in context with 9 you talking and me trying to read, but I can, 10 I can respond to what you just read. 11 Q That's not an accurate statement by 12 Mr. Zaccagnini, is it? 13 A You need to ask Mr. Zaccagnini. 14 Q I'm asking you whether your lawyer 15 made an accurate statement? 16 A Mr. Zaccagnini made an accurate 17 statement as it pertains to the truth and the 18 validity of the book deal idea. There was no 19 book deal, it was not about a book. 20 Q But he didn't say that, he said to 21 say that Linda contemplated a book deal about 22 Monica Lewinsky, about what she knew about 732 1 Monica Lewinsky is absolutely untrue. That's 2 not a true statement? 3 A Oh, absolutely it's true. I did 4 not contemplate a book at that point. I 5 contemplated getting the story out. 6 Q But your conversations -- 7 A There was never a book deal. 8 Q Your conversations with 9 Ms. Goldberg clearly indicated contemplating 10 a book deal? 11 A I have testified -- 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to your 13 characterization. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q You may answer the question. 16 A I have testified that at no time 17 was this about a book deal in 1997. Had it 18 been, there would have been a book proposal, 19 I promise you. 20 Q What was all this conversation with 21 Ms. Goldberg, then? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, asked 733 1 and answered. 2 THE WITNESS: I answered that 3 several times to your -- obviously not to 4 your satisfaction. I can't help you. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: What are we on, 15, 6 could you mark that as Exhibit 15, please. 7 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 15 8 was marked for identification.) 9 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 10 Q I'd ask you to take a look at what 11 has been marked as Exhibit 15, which I can 12 represent to you is a 302 report provided by 13 the Office of Independent Counsel and 14 materials submitted to Congress concerning an 15 interview with Ms. Goldberg. 16 On page 2 of this she says, third 17 full paragraph, she says Goldberg advised 18 that the book, again, talking about the 19 Maggie Gallagher proposal. 20 A I'm sorry, what paragraph? 21 Q The third full paragraph. 22 A Okay. 734 1 Q Advised that the book was about the 2 Travel Office "Filegate", and other things 3 going on. 4 Do you know whether she was 5 speaking accurately? 6 A I think I've testified that I'm not 7 sure what the book proposal included. I know 8 that the Travel Office was included and I 9 know there was a chapter entitled all the 10 President's women. 11 Q Let's look at the next paragraph. 12 The third sentence, Goldberg advised that 13 money was not discussed with Tripp, no ball 14 park figures were given. 15 A Where was this? 16 Q The next paragraph. 17 A Before she could submit the 18 proposal, is that the paragraph? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Before she could submit the 21 proposal. 22 Q It's not that sentence. 735 1 A I'm sorry? 2 Q Not the next sentence, it's the 3 sentence after that. Do you see that? 4 A I'm reading it. 5 Q Do you see the sentence that -- 6 A Can you let me read what I'm 7 reading? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Wait one second, 9 just wait and give her an opportunity to read 10 it. 11 THE WITNESS: You make me have to 12 start over each time you interrupt. 13 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 14 Q Have you finished reading that 15 paragraph? 16 A No. Okay, I've finished reading 17 that paragraph. 18 Q Do you see where Ms. Goldberg says 19 that, or the 302 states Goldberg advised that 20 money was not discussed with Tripp, no ball 21 park figures were given; is that an accurate 22 statement? 736 1 A I'm sorry, I don't even know what 2 this refers to. Does this refer to '96? 3 Q Yes, it does. 4 A I'm sorry, the question again? 5 Q She states that money was not 6 discussed with you "ball park figures were 7 given." 8 A This has to do with the June '96 9 endeavor? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Your question is is that accurate? 12 Q Is that accurate? 13 A That is not my recollection. 14 Q You have a clear recollection of 15 talking about money? 16 A I have a different recollection 17 than this. 18 Q Is your recollection clear about 19 talking about money? 20 A Clear enough to where I disagree 21 with this recollection. 22 What's the point? 737 1 Q Is it fair to say that during your 2 conversations with Ms. Lewinsky that you 3 misled her on a number of occasions? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. Again, 5 this is beyond the scope of permissible 6 discovery in this case as instructed by Judge 7 Lamberth and I'll advise you not to answer 8 that question. 9 MR. DITKOFF: Objection. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: On the basis of 11 relevance? 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: On the basis of 13 relevance and it's beyond the scope of Judge 14 Lamberth's Order. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Do you recall in one of your 17 conversations with Ms. Lewinsky she says, I 18 keep hearing these double clicks, and you 19 responded, that's my gum? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: For the record, 21 I've advised my client not to respond to any 22 questions relating to any conversations with 738 1 Ms. Lewinsky. They are clearly beyond the 2 scope of admissible discovery in this case as 3 outlined by Judge Lamberth's Order, and we'll 4 leave it at that. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: I think I'm entitled 6 to -- 7 MR. DITKOFF: I join that 8 objection. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: I just think I'm 10 entitled to ask questions that go to 11 credibility and bias. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The Judge has 13 clearly indicated what you can't go into, and 14 what you can't go into is the Lewinsky 15 investigation. 16 I've given you wide breadth and 17 allowed you to discuss questions that arise 18 from documents that arise from the Lewinsky 19 investigation, but I'm not going to allow you 20 to question my client as it relates to any 21 conversations that she had with Ms. Lewinsky. 22 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 739 1 Q Do you recall telling investigators 2 from Mr. Starr's office that the only time 3 you leaked White House information was on the 4 resignation of Web Hubbell? 5 A During my time at the White House, 6 yes, that's true. 7 Q But after you left the White House, 8 you leaked information about the White House 9 to Tony Snow; is that right? 10 A Oh, I'm afraid that we are not 11 speaking the same terminology here. 12 Q How do you mean? 13 A You're talking a leak in terms of 14 for dissemination within the media? What are 15 you talking about? 16 Q Yes. 17 A The only one that I consider a leak 18 was the Wolf Blitzer leak about Web Hubbell's 19 imminent resignation, which I think was a 20 couple hours prior to it being made public. 21 Q But you had a number of 22 conversations with Tony Snow while he was a 740 1 journalist, correct? 2 A Tony Snow as a friend, yes. He 3 never used that information at any time. 4 Q Are you aware that he wrote a 5 series of articles about the FBI files matter 6 after the news broke? 7 A After? 8 Q After the news about their 9 discovery? 10 A I don't believe any of the 11 information Tony used in his column came from 12 me. 13 Q So it is your belief that when you 14 talked to Mr. Snow, it was not for use in 15 anything he might write? 16 A It was completely off the record 17 and it was as friends, not as a journalist. 18 Q When you say completely off the 19 record, was it your understanding that none 20 of this would make it in to the newspaper? 21 A It was completely off the record, 22 so. 741 1 Q I'm asking you about your 2 understanding of what off the record means. 3 Is it your understanding that none 4 of that would make it into the newspaper or 5 just that it wouldn't be attributed to you? 6 A No, actually at the time it was, my 7 understanding of the conversations was that 8 this happened to be conversations between 9 friends, not for publication, at any time. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you mark that 11 as Exhibit 16. 12 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 16 13 was marked for identification.) 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Could you take a look at what's 16 been marked as Exhibit 16 and tell me if you 17 can identify that. 18 Have you seen that document before? 19 A I'll read it and let you know. 20 Q Well, we probably don't have enough 21 time left in my cross-examination for you to 22 read the whole thing. 742 1 A Then don't ask me a question. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: She's not 3 answering questions from this document until 4 she's read the entire document. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Well I'm going to ask her a 7 question concerning page 3759, which is the 8 only, actually, the only question I'm going 9 to ask you concerns the last paragraph on 10 page 3758. 11 A So you don't want me to read any of 12 this? 13 Q No, I'm not going to ask you any 14 questions about it. 15 I will represent to you that this 16 document comes from materials that the Office 17 of Independent Counsel supplied to Congress. 18 A What paragraph? 19 Q The last paragraph on page 3758, if 20 you don't mind reading that and tell me when 21 you're done reading it. 22 A The last paragraph you said, 743 1 correct? 2 Q Yes. Begins with Tripp advised her 3 attorney. 4 A Uh-huh, I see it. What is your 5 question? 6 Q I just want to ask you about the 7 last sentence that starts on 3758, it says, 8 Tripp advised she did not realize recording 9 her own telephone conversations with Lewinsky 10 was a violation of State law at the time she 11 did it. 12 That's not an accurate statement, 13 is it? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 15 question and advise my client not to respond 16 to it based upon the fact that it is beyond 17 the scope of admissible discovery in this 18 case as identified by Judge Lamberth's Order. 19 Additionally, as previously 20 indicated, and I will again advise my client 21 not to respond to this question on the basis 22 that it may tend to incriminate her and 744 1 violate her Fifth Amendment rights. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q Are you going to accept your 4 attorney's instruction on that? 5 A I am. 6 MR. DITKOFF: I join in the 7 objection as to scope. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't we go off 9 the record and I'll take a look to see if 10 I've got anything else. 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 12 at 5:17 p.m. 13 (Recess) 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 15 5:24 p.m. 16 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 17 Q I just have a few more questions, 18 Ms. Tripp. 19 A All right. 20 Q Are you familiar with Monica 21 Lewinsky's testimony to the Grand Jury at 22 all? 745 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Have you had a 2 chance to review her testimony? 3 THE WITNESS: I have not reviewed 4 her testimony. 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Have you read press accounts of it? 7 A Actually, the only thing that 8 stands out in terms of Grand Jury testimony 9 is I hate Linda Tripp. 10 Q But you, possible you've read other 11 press accounts; is that correct? 12 A Press accounts, certainly, yes. 13 Q Do you recall that she testified 14 that when, here's what she said, when I was 15 first apprehend, she, meaning Linda, was, she 16 said they had done the same thing to her and 17 she tried to hug me; do you recall that? 18 A Do I recall what? 19 Q That Ms. Lewinsky testified to 20 that? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you say that to her? 746 1 MR. DITKOFF: Objection, beyond the 2 scope. 3 THE WITNESS: Say what? 4 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 5 Q They had done the same thing to 6 you? 7 A What are you talking about? 8 Q When Ms. Lewinsky was apprehended 9 at the Ritz Carlton Hotel. 10 A Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't following 11 you. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Object to the use of 13 the word "apprehended." 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, I'm using 15 Ms. Lewinsky's words. 16 MR. DITKOFF: Same objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall a 18 conversation with Monica too much at the Ritz 19 Carlton. 20 I recall running in to Monica after 21 I left and she left to go shopping, I think. 22 She passed me, my returning from Nordstrom's, 747 1 having made a phone call to arrange for a 2 ride, she came by me and said thanks a lot. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Did you tell her that the Office of 5 Independent Counsel had done the same thing 6 to you? 7 A I may have. I may have. 8 MR. DITKOFF: Objection, outside 9 the scope. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q That wouldn't have been truthful, 12 right? 13 A No, that would not have been 14 truthful, clearly not. I went to them. 15 Q Did Monica Lewinsky ask you to take 16 notes of her conversations? 17 MR. DITKOFF: Objection. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object, 19 again, and I'll state my objection -- 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q You realize that she says that she 22 never asked you to take notes? 748 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: One question at a 2 time. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Are you aware that -- 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 6 object to the question and I want to put my 7 objection on the record. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I'll withdraw the 9 question so we'll ask another question. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Are you aware that Monica Lewinsky 12 has testified that she never asked you to 13 take notes of her conversations with you? 14 A I'm aware of that. 15 Q Is she testifying truthfully? 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object. I'll 17 put my objection on the record. Judge 18 Lamberth has made it very clear that there's 19 to be no discovery in this case as it relates 20 to the Lewinsky investigation. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Let me ask the 22 question then. 749 1 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 2 Q You testified -- 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to put 4 my objection on the record, unless you're 5 going to withdraw it. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm going to withdraw 7 the question. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q You testified that Monica Lewinsky 10 did ask you to take notes of your 11 conversations with her, correct? 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. I'll 13 put my objection on the record. 14 MR. DITKOFF: I join the objection. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Judge Lamberth has 16 made it very clear in his Order that there 17 will be no permissible discovery in this case 18 as it relates to the Lewinsky investigation. 19 Therefore, it's clearly beyond the scope of 20 permissible discovery. 21 I'll advise my client not to 22 respond to the question for that reason and 750 1 for the reason that a response to that 2 question may tend to incriminate her and 3 violate her constitutional right to the Fifth 4 Amendment right against self-incrimination. 5 MR. DITKOFF: I'll join in that 6 scope. 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q Are you going to follow that 9 instruction? 10 A I'm sorry? 11 MR. DITKOFF: I join in the 12 objections going to the scope of the 13 discovery. 14 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 15 Q Are you going to follow your 16 attorney's instruction? 17 A Yes, I am. 18 Q Have you been requested by the 19 Office of Independent Counsel not to write a 20 book for the time being. They've made no 21 request to you not to write a book? 22 A No. 751 1 MR. GAFFNEY: That's all I have, 2 Ms. Tripp, thank you. 3 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 4 NUSSBAUM 5 BY MR. MAZUR: 6 Q Mrs. Tripp, in case you've 7 forgotten, my name is Robert Mazur and I 8 represent Mr. Nussbaum. 9 A I have not forgotten. 10 Q I just have a very few questions to 11 ask you. 12 First place, is it correct that you 13 regarded Mr. Nussbaum when you worked for him 14 as a person of the utmost integrity? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 16 lacks foundation. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe that's a 18 quote. 19 BY MR. MAZUR: 20 Q That is what you, that is how you 21 regarded him, correct? 22 A That's right. 752 1 Q With respect to the period after 2 Mr. Foster's death and prior to the 3 interviews of the White House counsel staff 4 people by the Park Police and the other 5 investigators, is it correct that 6 Mr. Nussbaum had a conversation with you and 7 the others about how you were to conduct 8 yourselves in those interviews? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound 10 question, lacks foundation. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 12 the question, Ms. Tripp? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand the 14 question. 15 It's my recollection now, in 1999, 16 that that meeting took place in Bernie's 17 office in the immediate aftermath of 18 Mr. Foster's death and I believe that it was 19 Steve Neuwirth and Cliff Sloan who did a lot 20 of the talking in that meeting. 21 BY MR. MAZUR: 22 Q Is it correct that Mr. Nussbaum, 753 1 himself, advised you and the others to be 2 truthful and forthright in response to the 3 questions that you were asked? 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague. 5 THE WITNESS: The guidance that I 6 remember specifically was to answer questions 7 truthfully, to not offer information and to 8 not speculate. 9 BY MR. MAZUR: 10 Q Is it correct that there were no 11 areas that you were not to get into? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 13 THE WITNESS: I think I'd prefer to 14 just stay with my statement that I just made. 15 BY MR. MAZUR: 16 Q I'm going to, I'd like to read to 17 you from part of the transcript of your 18 August 1, 1995, testimony before the Senate, 19 either, Banking Committee or Whitewater 20 Committee or whatever it was at that time. 21 A Right. 22 Q These were questions by 754 1 Mr. Ben-Veniste. 2 A Okay. 3 Q All right, and to the best of your 4 recollection, was it Mr. Nussbaum who gave 5 these sorts of guidelines or pointers? Was 6 it Mr. Nussbaum? Ms. Tripp, it is my 7 recollection that it was Mr. Nussbaum in the 8 presence of others, yes. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me object. Do 10 you have a copy of that for everybody, can we 11 get a copy? 12 MR. MAZUR: No, I don't. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well we have no way 14 of knowing what testimony that is or whether 15 you're reading it accurately. 16 MR. MAZUR: Well, you can look over 17 my shoulder. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd prefer not to. 19 MR. MAZUR: It will just waste 20 time, if there's any issue about the 21 correctness of this, I'm sure you'll raise it 22 on redirect. 755 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll stipulate to 2 the correctness the transcript for the 3 record. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well we won't, but if 5 there's a problem, we'll deal with it later. 6 BY MR. MAZUR: 7 Q Mr. Ben-Veniste, "and what do you 8 recall having been said." Ms. Tripp, "I 9 recall being called in to a meeting at which 10 time Bernie gave rather specific guidance and 11 that was to be truthful, forthright in 12 response to questions posed by any of the 13 investigative services that would possibly be 14 coming to see us, to answer the questions 15 asked and not to embellish or speculate." 16 Mr. Ben-Veniste, "Kind of like your 17 own attorneys would have given you advice in 18 coming here today, I take it?" Ms. Tripp, 19 "Yes, sir." 20 Mr. Ben-Veniste, "And with respect 21 to what Mr. Nussbaum told you or what anyone 22 else may have mentioned to you in connection 756 1 with being interviewed by the police, did 2 anyone suggest to you that you ought to 3 withhold any information." Ms. Tripp, "No, 4 sir, that was never suggested to me." 5 Then the same question was put to 6 Ms. Gorham. 7 Mr. Ben-Veniste, "Did anyone 8 suggest there was just, there was certain 9 areas that you should not get into or you 10 should not respond to." 11 Ms. Tripp, "No, sir, only in regard 12 that we should not speculate." 13 Same question put to Ms. Gorham. 14 Mr. Ben-Veniste, "So that if I understand, 15 the advice was to be truthful in your 16 responses and to cooperate to the best of 17 your ability with the investigators. " 18 Ms. Tripp, "Yes, sir, that's accurate." 19 Do you recall being asked those 20 questions and giving those answers? 21 A That sounds like an accurate 22 transcript, yes. 757 1 Q Were you attempting to be truthful 2 there in responding to Mr. Ben-Veniste's 3 questions to the best of your ability and 4 your recollection as of the time you were 5 giving it? 6 A Yes, correct. 7 MR. MAZUR: Nothing further. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: What time do you 9 have, Mr. Holley? 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5:34 p.m. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: What time was used up 12 on the defendant's? 13 THE WITNESS: We have 23 minutes 14 left, if anyone cares. 15 MS. WEISMANN: Can we go off the 16 record. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure, let's go off 18 the record. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 20 at 5:34 p.m. 21 (Recess) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 758 1 5:39 p.m. 2 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Ms. Tripp, you testified this 5 morning that you recognized the name of the 6 Washington Post editor who, according to your 7 experience, had been giving heads up to Bruce 8 Lindsay in the White House about Washington 9 Post scandal stories to be someone by the 10 name of Downing? 11 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection. 13 THE WITNESS: I think what I 14 testified to is that when asked the question 15 originally, in reviewing certain names, when 16 you said Downing, that was a familiar 17 response to me because of the thought process 18 I had had at the time when it was occurring 19 with the television personality. 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q Did you mean Leonard Downey? 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 759 1 THE WITNESS: I believe that's what 2 I meant, yes, but that's not the television 3 personality to whom I referred. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q The television personality being 6 Morton Downey? 7 A I think so. 8 Q Do you say that there was perhaps 9 another editor who called Bruce Lindsay 10 frequently with heads up? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form. 12 THE WITNESS: I believe what I said 13 was that there were two, which I was aware, I 14 don't remember the second one's name. 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q Does the name Bill Hamilton ring a 17 bell? 18 A I can't tell you, I don't remember. 19 Q Have you ever provided testimony on 20 Filegate before a Grand Jury? 21 A Filegate? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 760 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I 2 referenced anything having to do with the 3 illegal obtaining of the FBI files during my 4 Grand Jury testimony in 1997. 5 I may well have in passing in a 6 period when I was trying to make the Grand 7 Jury understand why I felt threatened, but 8 I'm not real sure. I haven't reviewed my 9 testimony. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Do you recollect the Office of 12 Independent Counsel ever asking you a 13 question about Filegate during Grand Jury 14 proceedings? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 16 THE WITNESS: No, actually what I 17 remember is my getting on the record, my 18 rationale, my feelings, my beliefs as to why 19 I felt threatened and why I felt that the 20 behavior was unscrupulous and needed to be 21 exposed. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 761 1 Q But did the Office of Independent 2 Counsel ever ask you any questions about 3 Filegate before a Grand Jury? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: I recall no such 6 questions. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did any of the grand jurors ever 9 ask you a question about Filegate? 10 A Again, I reiterate that I'm not, I 11 don't have an independent recollection right 12 now of exactly who asked what and how I 13 responded. 14 I do know that I tried to make the 15 Grand Jury understand certain events that had 16 occurred during my tenure at the White House 17 and thereafter that made me fearful, and so 18 they may well have asked questions during 19 that time period. 20 Q So it was very brief testimony? 21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: Actually it was very 762 1 brief, because anything, and I say testimony 2 that had to do with anything other than the 3 Lewinsky matter was very brief because there 4 was a grand juror who had to recuse herself 5 whenever I attempted to testify about the 6 Travel Office, for instance. So, we never 7 seemed to return to that line of questioning. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q So except for your very brief 10 reference in the context of threats, there 11 was no real substantive development of the 12 issues you testified here during this 13 deposition? 14 A Or any other, no. 15 Q The answer is no? 16 A Yeah, or any other that I recall 17 and the answer is no. 18 Q Has Ken Starr, himself, ever asked 19 you any questions about Filegate? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: I've spoken on many 22 occasions with Judge Starr and I don't recall 763 1 the subject of files ever coming up. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You previously offered testimony 4 this morning about Betsy Pond and you 5 testified, correct me if I'm wrong, that she 6 told you that she would not testify 7 truthfully if asked to about matters that she 8 saw in the White House Counsel's Office, 9 correct? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 12 mischaracterizes the testimony. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You can respond. 15 A I think I need to be plain, 16 Ms. Pond represented to me how she thought 17 questions relating to certain issues should 18 be answered, how she intended to answer, if 19 deposed or under oath or if asked by law 20 enforcement, and suggested how I could do the 21 same. 22 Q Are there things about Ms. Pond's 764 1 past in terms of her employment in the White 2 House Counsel's Office which, if revealed, 3 might cause Ms. Pond concern? 4 I'm not asking for the substance, 5 I'm just asking to identify that. 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 7 THE WITNESS: Well I'm not sure, 8 could you repeat the, I'm unclear. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q What I'm saying is are there things 11 about Ms. Pond that she wouldn't want 12 revealed that you know of, publicly? 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: That's, I don't know 15 how to answer that. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well it's an 17 opinion question. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q I'm trying to keep within the 20 parameters of Court Orders. I don't want to 21 ask you what it is. 22 But are there sensitive things 765 1 about Ms. Pond that she doesn't want out 2 there publicly? 3 A I don't know what Betsy wants or 4 doesn't want, so I'm not comfortable 5 answering it that way. 6 It was my understanding that the 7 Judge precluded me from testifying on the 8 record for issues concerning, personnel 9 issues concerning Debra Gorham and Betsy Pond 10 and I'm really not comfortable getting into a 11 lot more than that. 12 Q I'm not asking you that, I don't 13 want to ask you that, at this time, without 14 asking the Court for guidance. 15 But I want to ask you the question 16 is: Is there something about Ms. Pond's life 17 experience that if someone threatened her in 18 revealing that could influence her testimony, 19 based upon your experience in dealing with 20 her? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, calls for 22 speculation, based on facts not in evidence. 766 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll join the 2 objection as it relates to speculation. But, 3 Ms. Tripp, you can answer the question if you 4 understand it. 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I 6 understand it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q I'm not asking you to speculate, 9 based upon your understanding of her psyche. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand 12 her psyche at all, and I'm not a psychologist 13 or a psychiatrist. 14 I will tell you that she 15 represented to me ways in which she would 16 testify that would not be truthful; and based 17 on my conversations with her, I understood it 18 to be for various reasons, not least of which 19 was a loyalty to Mrs. Clinton, over time, and 20 a complete willingness to protect her 21 livelihood. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 767 1 Q What do you mean by a complete 2 willingness to protect her livelihood? 3 Elucidate. 4 A I'm sorry? 5 Q Tell us what she said about that. 6 A She anticipated that she would 7 continue to be employed by the Clinton 8 Administration at least as long as the 9 President was President and even intimated to 10 me that following that, she intended to find 11 work with one or more of the principals of 12 this Administration. 13 So I think she was pretty heavily 14 committed to her way of thinking. 15 Q Did you take that to mean that she 16 would, therefore, not testify in any way 17 negative to this Administration because it 18 could affect future employment opportunities? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, calls for 20 speculation. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q You can respond, based on your 768 1 belief. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't have to 4 testify based on my belief. I'm testifying 5 that that is what she said to me. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you know where Ms. Pond is 8 currently employed? 9 A I've been told, and I was not 10 surprised to hear, that she is still with the 11 Administration. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I just need to take 13 one minute off the record to get a document 14 to speed things up. 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 16 at 5:49 p.m. 17 (Recess) 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 19 5:50 p.m. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q I'm going to show you some pages 22 from a document, majority document 769 1 production, Hearings Special Committee to 2 Investigate Whitewater Development 3 Corporation and Related Matters of the 4 Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban 5 Affairs, United States Senate, First Session, 6 Volume 19, Document Production in Response to 7 Senate Resolution 120. 8 I turn your attention to pages 595 9 to 710, and to speed this thing along, 10 because you want to get out of here at 11 around 6:00, I don't have the documents 12 prepared to give everyone a copy. If they'd 13 like to look at it, you're welcome to do it, 14 as occurred with Mr. Mazur. 15 But pages 595 to 710, are these the 16 billing records which your Counsel showed you 17 this morning? 18 A These are the pages that 19 Mr. Zaccagnini showed me this morning. 20 Q Do you recognize those pages to be 21 of the same configuration of the documents 22 that you believe to be the Rose billing law 770 1 firm records that you saw in Vince Foster's 2 safe? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: This is the first 6 time I'm looking at them with my glasses. 7 When Mr. Zaccagnini showed me, I didn't have 8 my glasses on. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Well, take your time. 11 A They look similar to me. I 12 remember saying that I don't recall this. I 13 recall a fold over on the one end, a third of 14 it, roughly. 15 Q Well, those documents are put in 16 book form. 17 A I just know that it was horizontal 18 and folded at one end. 19 Q Is there anything about those 20 billing records which lead you to believe 21 that they are the same as what you saw in 22 Vince Foster's safe, other than the fact that 771 1 they are horizontal? 2 A I don't remember the words being 3 this tiny, or my eyes have gotten worse. No. 4 I mean just looking at it right now, I can't 5 even read it. 6 Q Well, those are not to scale, they 7 are reduced to the size of the book. 8 A Right, but I'm saying the print, 9 itself, which obviously would also be smaller 10 in this reproduction, but what I'm telling 11 you is I can't read the words, so. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q All right, well we'll come back to 15 that next time. 16 A I mean I can make out client 17 billing. 18 Q When Mr. Zaccagnini showed them to 19 you this morning, did you believe them to be 20 the same as what you had seen in the safe? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Join it. Object to 772 1 the relevance, as well. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A I told him at that time that it 5 looked like a smaller version of what I had 6 seen. 7 Q Now you testified this morning 8 about an order which had been issued by 9 Hillary Clinton that you saw in writing to 10 William Kennedy with regard to the firing of 11 the Travel Office employees. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Can you recollect any other orders 15 that Hillary Clinton issued to anyone in the 16 White House Counsel's Office? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 19 THE WITNESS: Well first of all I 20 don't think that if it was an order it was 21 directed to Bill Kennedy. Bill Kennedy's 22 name was on the memo, as was Vince Foster's, 773 1 and I even believe there was a third name 2 that I'm not sure, so I'm not going to 3 testify to that. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Let me stop you on that. Do you 6 know who the order was issued to? 7 A No, all I can tell you is that on 8 this memo in the upper right-hand corner was 9 this handwritten notation. 10 Q The only names on the document were 11 Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Foster? 12 A I think I just testified I believe 13 there might have been a third, but I don't 14 remember for sure, so I'd rather just say for 15 sure I saw those two names. 16 Q So other than those two names and 17 perhaps a third, there was no one else that 18 you know of who this order may have been 19 directed towards? 20 A No. 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 774 1 Q Now, do you know of any other 2 orders that Mrs. Clinton issued to the White 3 House Counsel's Office or anyone else during 4 the time that you worked in the White House? 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 THE WITNESS: That's not an area 7 that I have given any thought to, so let me 8 think about that. Nothing comes to mind 9 right away. 10 I think it's worth the caveat that 11 Mrs. Clinton was adjacent to our office and 12 in our office frequently, and so there was 13 quite a bit of interaction and so to testify 14 to whether or not, I think if you mean orders 15 only as opposed to instruction or guidance, I 16 can answer now, but if you mean any kind of 17 guidance or instruction, I'd need to think 18 about it. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Was it your understanding that 21 Mrs. Clinton was in the office just paying 22 personal visits on a frequent basis or did 775 1 she come in from time to time on matters 2 related to White House operations? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can respond. 6 A I'm not saying that she didn't come 7 in on personal business, I'm sure that's 8 possible, but the times that I was aware was 9 certainly business and was something that Deb 10 Gorham talked about frequently. 11 Q What, specifically? 12 A In fact, Debra Gorham ended up, 13 coincidentally or ironically on the same day 14 that Mr. Foster died, going to get her notary 15 public paperwork because she was doing so 16 much notary public work for Mrs. Clinton. 17 Q What specifically did Deb Gorham 18 say in terms of Mrs. Clinton's coming in to 19 the office on business matters? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: It would depend on 22 the issue. She, you know, oh, it's this or 776 1 oh, it's that, depending on what the issue 2 was. 3 You know, it could be, at one time 4 I remember it was her taxes. Another time it 5 was blind trust. Another time it had to do 6 with Travel Office. Another time it had to 7 do with the aftermath of Mr. Foster's death. 8 Those are just off the top of my 9 head, so it was frequent and it was not a 10 secret. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Those are just a few examples? 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 14 THE WITNESS: They come to mind 15 right away, I mean. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q If we are talking examples during 18 the time you worked in the White House 19 Counsel's Office, are we talking tens of 20 examples? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 777 1 vagueness. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Roughly speaking -- 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 5 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not getting 6 into that, Mr. Klayman. I can tell you that 7 she was in there relatively frequently. It 8 was a back and forth kind of thing, far more 9 with Mr. Foster, and so after his death, less 10 so, but certainly she still came in to see 11 Mr. Nussbaum. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to read to 13 you a portion of Mr. William Kennedy's 14 deposition and we'll put this in front of you 15 and I'll ask that this be marked as the next 16 exhibit, what exhibit is that, 17? 17 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 17 18 was marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q This is Mr. William Kennedy's 21 deposition taken October 15, 1998, a day that 22 will live in infamy. 778 1 A Where are we? What page do you 2 want us to look at? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Have you said what 4 page, Mr. Klayman? 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Yes, it's page 70. It's on the top 7 right-hand corner, line 6. I'm asking the 8 question of Mr. Kennedy, "During the time 9 that you were at the White House, did you 10 ever have any contact, written or oral, with 11 Hillary Rodham Clinton over matters other 12 than just personal matters." 13 The answer, "No, sir, not that I 14 recall. I do not recall reporting to her on 15 official business. I mean, Hillary is a 16 friend of mine who I know and I saw her 17 socially, but I did not report to her on 18 official matters." 19 Question, "I didn't ask whether you 20 reported, did you ever discuss with her 21 anything dealing with official matters." 22 Answer, "I did not." Question, 779 1 "Never." Answer, "No, sir." Question, "Did 2 you ever discuss with any member of her staff 3 any matter concerning official matters?" 4 Answer, "I am certain that there 5 were inquiries from members of her staff 6 about people she was interested in the 7 clearance process, where they stood in the 8 process and things of that nature. I can't 9 remember specifics, but I know there were 10 such inquiries." 11 Question, "And those inquiries were 12 made in writing?" 13 Answer, "No, sir. Most of the time 14 they were telephone calls." 15 Question, "And who in the ordinary 16 course would call you about them?" 17 Answer, "I'm sorry, I can't recall. 18 I would have been -- any number of people. I 19 simply can't recall, but probably Maggie 20 Williams or whoever was the Deputy Chief of 21 Staff at that point in time." 22 Is Mr. Kennedy's statement accurate 780 1 based on your knowledge? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 3 compound nature of the question. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: I object to the form 5 of the question. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Let me break it down. Is it 8 correct for Mr. Kennedy to say that 9 Mrs. Clinton only contacted him on personal 10 matters? 11 A Well, I don't know that that's what 12 he said. What he said was that he saw her 13 socially, but he did not report to her on 14 official matters. That was not even remotely 15 what I observed, unless -- 16 Q Why was that not remotely what -- 17 A May I finish? 18 Q Yes, sure. 19 A Unless he socialized with her very 20 frequently during duty hours, along with Neil 21 Eggleston and Steve Neuwirth. 22 Q In fact, the memorandum which you 781 1 saw from Mrs. Clinton concerning the Travel 2 Office firings, that wasn't a personal 3 communication, was it? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to, join. 6 THE WITNESS: It was on official 7 White House letterhead memorandum. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You did see Mrs. Clinton from time 10 to time discuss with Mr. Kennedy matters 11 dealing with official business? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I want to be 14 careful how I say this. I saw Mr. Kennedy 15 frequently go into Mrs. Clinton's office, 16 accompanied often by Steve Neuwirth, 17 sometimes Neil Eggleston, stay in there 18 behind closed doors for some time and then 19 come out. 20 I don't know that I would be 21 willing to say under oath that, you know, 22 that this was official or not. To me, it was 782 1 my impression that it was official. These 2 people didn't generally waste the First 3 Lady's time, so. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Going back to Betsy Pond, and 6 correct me if I'm wrong, was it your 7 testimony this morning that she went in to 8 Vince Foster's office to look for a suicide 9 note? 10 A My testimony was that is what she 11 represented to me that she did. 12 Q Did she tell you whether she found 13 such a suicide note or not? 14 A She said she did not. 15 Q Did anyone ever tell you that they 16 found a suicide note in Foster's office? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 18 relevance. 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: You raised it, not 21 me. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: I never raised that. 783 1 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat 2 that? 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did anyone other than Betsy Pond 5 ever discuss a suicide note with you of Vince 6 Foster? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 THE WITNESS: This is all part of 10 the record of the Senate Banking Committee, 11 the Senate Whitewater Committee hearings. 12 There was some discussion about a 13 shredded yellow note, but no, nothing beyond 14 that. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Did anyone ever say what it was? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Only, I think only 19 what the public record indicates. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q No, I'm asking did anybody ever 22 tell you that? 784 1 A I don't know that it was ever 2 actually identified as a suicide note. 3 Bernie's words to me at that time when it was 4 discovered was it's so sad, it's just so sad. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Can we take a 6 break, Mr. Klayman? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll adjourn and 8 when can we reconvene this deposition? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Unfortunately, 10 I've got two things pending, obviously. Can 11 we go off the record? 12 MR. GILLIGAN: What's the time. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 14 at 6:03 p.m. 15 (Recess) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record at 17 6:06 p.m. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: We have tentatively 19 set a date of 10 a.m., next Friday, which I 20 believe is the 22nd of January, to reconvene 21 this deposition at this office at Judicial 22 Watch and I would ask Mr. Zaccagnini if there 785 1 are any further documents to be produced that 2 at least a day before we reconvene that 3 deposition we make them available. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: My apologies, I'll 5 try to take care of that as soon as tomorrow, 6 which means I'll need some cards. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I'm not available 8 prior to Wednesday, by the way. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Okay, very good. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, thank you all. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Thank you, very 12 good. 13 (Whereupon, at 6:07 p.m., the 14 deposition of LINDA R. TRIPP was 15 continued.) 16 * * * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 ??