554 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 ---------------------------x 3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : 4 : Plaintiffs, : 5 : v. : Civil No. 96-2163 (RCL) 6 : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : 7 INVESTIGATION et al., : : 8 Defendants. : Volume 3 ---------------------------x 9 Washington, D.C. 10 Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11 12 Continued deposition of 13 LINDA R. TRIPP 14 a witness, recalled for examination by 15 counsel for Defendants, pursuant to notice 16 and agreement of counsel, continuing at 17 approximately 1:34 p.m., at the law offices 18 of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street 19 Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Monica A. 20 Voorhees, notary public in and for the 21 District of Columbia, when were present on 22 behalf of the respective parties: 555 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 10 ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 15 Investigation: 16 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 556 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE MARCIE ZIEGLER, ESQUIRE 4 Williams & Connolly 725 Twelfth Street Northwest 5 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 434-5000 6 7 On behalf of The White House: 8 MICHELLE M. PETERSON, ESQUIRE Associate Counsel to the President 9 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 10 (202) 456-7804 11 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 12 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE 13 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 51 West 52nd Street 14 New York, New York 10019-6618 (212) 403-1000 15 16 On behalf of the Office of the Independent Counsel: 17 JOSEPH M. DITKOFF, ESQUIRE 18 RICHARD C. KILLOUGH, ESQUIRE Office of Independent Counsel 19 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest, Suite 490 North 20 Washington, D.C. 20004 (202) 514-8688 21 22 557 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Deponent: 3 ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE 4 Semmes Bowen & Semmes 250 West Pratt Street 5 Baltimore, Maryland 21201 (410) 385-3935 6 7 8 * * * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 558 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Defendant FBI and EOP 559 4 Counsel for Defendant Hillary Rodham 621 Clinton 5 Counsel for Defendant Nussbaum 751 6 Counsel for Plaintiffs 758 7 8 TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 9 No. 10 - Senate Housing Committee Meeting, 629 Excerpt 10 No. 11 - Goldberg Transcript, Tape 001 693 11 No. 12 - Goldberg Transcript, Tape 002 720 12 No. 13 - Transcript, Meet The Press 727 13 No. 14 - Page 4-5 of Exhibit 13 729 14 No. 15 - Report 302 733 15 No. 16 - Transcript, Office of the 741 16 Independent Counsel 17 No. 17 - Deposition of William Kennedy 777 18 19 20 * * * * * 21 22 559 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 LINDA R. TRIPP 4 was recalled as a witness and, having been 5 previously duly sworn, was examined and 6 testified further as follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 8 FBI and EOP 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Tripp. You 11 understand, I take it, that you're still 12 under oath? 13 A Good afternoon. Yes, I do. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Before we do that, 15 can we see if there's anybody at this 16 deposition who wasn't at the first two 17 sessions. 18 MR. KILLOUGH: Rick Killough from 19 the Office of Independent Counsel. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry, the name? 21 MR. KILLOUGH: Rick Killough. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: How's that spelled? 560 1 MR. KILLOUGH: K-i-l-l-o-u-g-h. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you have a title? 3 MR. KILLOUGH: Assistant 4 Independent Counsel. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Okay. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it Ms. Paxton, 7 she was at the first session on 8 December 14th. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Was not at the 10 second session. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: But was not at the 12 second. That's the only other change. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: As far as I know. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q Ms. Tripp, before we got started 16 here about 1:30, you were having lunch in 17 Mr. Klayman's conference room; is that 18 correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q Was Mr. Klayman in the conference 21 room, as well? 22 A He was. 561 1 Q Were you having any sort of 2 discussion with Mr. Klayman? 3 A He asked me questions and I 4 answered. 5 Q What questions did he ask you? 6 A Let me see if I can remember all of 7 them. He asked me if I had looked at the, 8 what were represented to me as being the Rose 9 law firm billing records. I said I had. 10 He asked if that refreshed my 11 memory; I said it looked like what I had seen 12 in the safe. He asked me about Betsy Pond 13 and if I believed that she would testify 14 truthfully if deposed. I said no, I didn't, 15 based on representations Betsy had made to me 16 when she assisted me in obtaining counsel 17 in 1994 -- 199 -- let me think. 1994. 18 He asked me some other questions, 19 as well. I can't remember what they were, 20 I'm sorry. 21 Q Do you recall any other information 22 you gave to Mr. Klayman? 562 1 A There were other questions I 2 answered, yes. They are just not coming to 3 me. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll be happy to 5 volunteer it, if you'd like. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Please do. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked you about The 8 Washington Post, if you remembered the name 9 of the editor or editors you had identified 10 earlier as having given heads up to the White 11 House. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. Shall I 13 just -- from there tell you what I told him 14 in response to that question? 15 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 16 Q Sure. 17 A I told him I had no independent 18 recollection of names. I remember there 19 being two individuals, both of whom were men, 20 and that when he suggested the name Downing, 21 it rang a bell simply because I recall during 22 that time frame hearing the name Downing from 563 1 Bruce Lindsay in conversations in our office, 2 in the Office of General Counsel, and not 3 being familiar with that name from The 4 Washington Post, but hearing it in 5 conjunction with The Washington Post and 6 actually thinking in terms of a television 7 personality, which is why it rings a bell. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me stop there, 9 did I mention -- 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman -- 11 MR. KLAYMAN: You asked me to help. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm not done. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: I didn't ask you to 14 interrupt the witness during her testimony, 15 Mr. Klayman. 16 THE WITNESS: May I finish? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Please. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't we just 19 let her answer the question. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: That's my goal. 21 THE WITNESS: During that time he 22 asked me if the name Bill Hamilton, husband 564 1 of Jane Mayer, rang a bell, and I told him it 2 did not. I wouldn't preclude it from being 3 true at that time because there was another 4 name that I heard routinely associated with 5 The Washington Post heads up to Bruce 6 Lindsay, but I can't testify that that was 7 the name. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q Did you tell Mr. Klayman what these 10 representations were that Ms. Pond made to 11 you? 12 A I don't believe so. I don't think 13 we got into detail about that. I'd be happy 14 to do so, if you'd like me to. 15 Q I'll stick that one in my back 16 pocket for the moment. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Let's talk, instead, about just 19 briefly some more about stacks of files in 20 Mr. Kennedy's office. 21 At any given time, how many of 22 these stacks did you see in Mr. Kennedy's 565 1 office? 2 A Look, I'm trying to be completely 3 honest and forthright and forthcoming with 4 you, but I'm telling you that it's been six 5 years. I can only give you my impression. 6 My impression was that the files 7 didn't seem to change over time in terms of 8 the size of the stacks. There seemed to be 9 stacks both on the floor and on a table or 10 two. 11 Q Were there 10 stacks or more? 12 A I've testified before that 13 quantifying amounts is difficult for me. I 14 will tell you that it seemed overwhelming, it 15 seemed an overwhelming number of files. 16 Q Other than Ms. Pond, who we'll come 17 to in a little bit, who else in the White 18 House did you ever discuss the many stacks of 19 files in Mr. Kennedy's office with? 20 A With Debra Gorham. 21 Q Anyone else? 22 A Bill Kennedy. 566 1 Q As you've testified to? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How about outside the White House? 4 Did you ever mention them to anybody outside 5 the White House? 6 A I believe I've testified that I 7 discussed those with Tony Snow and may have 8 discussed this with Lucianne Goldberg. In 9 fact, I'm quite certain I did, in 1996. 10 Q Can you tell me about your 11 conversation with Ms. Gorham on this subject? 12 A Again, I don't think it was 13 significant. It was during the time that Deb 14 Gorham was reassigned to Bill Kennedy, was 15 sitting outside and was entering data into 16 the computer. 17 Now she did not identify those 18 files as FBI files for me, but we did discuss 19 the stacks of files and she was entering data 20 in to the computer where she sat in front of 21 Bill Kennedy's office. 22 Q So far as the stacks of files in 567 1 Mr. Kennedy's office were concerned, were 2 there any markings on these files to suggest 3 to you that they were FBI files? 4 A Again, in terms of on the outside 5 of files, I saw nothing. 6 Q Did you ever see the contents of 7 any of these files? 8 A The only thing I recall seeing are 9 names in some fashion on the files. 10 Q On the file jackets? 11 A Yeah, and I have no independent 12 recollection today as to whether any of them 13 were face up or not. I believe I saw a 14 handful on his desk open that looked similar, 15 but, no, the contents at that time I would 16 not have seen. 17 Q Did anyone ever tell you what they 18 supposedly contained? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered. 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q You may answer. 22 A I'm sorry, at what point? 568 1 Q Ever. 2 A Well, only the time that I spoke 3 with Betsy Pond. 4 Q Now on the occasions when you 5 observed names on the files, were these 6 occasions when you were in Mr. Kennedy's 7 personal office having a conversation with 8 Mr. Kennedy? 9 A I don't believe I was ever in 10 Mr. Kennedy's office when I was not having a 11 conversation with Mr. Kennedy. So -- 12 Q So the answer is yes? 13 A I believe it would be yes. You're 14 asking me to -- again, recall something that 15 was six years ago. I can tell you that I 16 don't recall being in his office without him. 17 Q Are these conversations where you 18 would be standing up shooting the breeze with 19 him, do you recall being seated anywhere? 20 A I think it would depend. There 21 were several times that I just chatted with 22 Bill and then there were other times when I 569 1 actually went to see him on a mission, on 2 a -- so, I think it would depend on whether I 3 was seated or not on the occasion. 4 If I were there to say hello for 5 two seconds, I probably wouldn't have been 6 seated. 7 Q You say the files were about hip 8 high, the stacks, that is to say? 9 A Some of them were, yes, those that 10 were on the floor. 11 Q Do I understand correctly then that 12 while you were having conversation with 13 Mr. Kennedy, you were somehow able to 14 nevertheless look down at the floor in the 15 middle of the conversation and somehow see 16 the names on the file? 17 A I don't know how to make you 18 understand this. The entire room was stacks 19 of files, on the tables, on the floor, on a 20 table behind his desk, on a table on the side 21 of his desk, all around the perimeter of the 22 room. Files were everywhere, and they were, 570 1 I'm not sure where you would have stood or 2 have been seated where you would not have 3 seen stacks of files. 4 Q Yes, but in terms of seeing the 5 names on a file folder tab at the top of one 6 of the stacks. 7 A Uh-huh, right. 8 Q Were you while you were having a 9 conversation with Mr. Kennedy able to stare 10 down at the top of a stack and see the name? 11 A I don't know, I don't know, I can't 12 tell you today how I saw names. I'm not sure 13 that I ever just saw only one file on one 14 stack. I know that that's my impression now 15 in retrospect, but I'm not sure that's true. 16 It might have been three, it might have been 17 three. I saw names. 18 Q Now you left the White House 19 Counsel's Office in approximately May 20 of 1994; is that correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Did you have occasion to be in 571 1 Mr. Kennedy's office after your service in 2 Counsel's Office had ended? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What occasion was that? 5 A Let me correct that, not 6 necessarily Mr. Kennedy's office, but that 7 suite. 8 Q Well, let me redirect your 9 attention then to Mr. Kennedy's personal 10 office. 11 A Okay, I don't recall being there 12 after. I may have. I had discussions which 13 involved correspondence between my then 14 attorney and Joel Klein and Neil Eggleston 15 and I may well have spoken to Bill Kennedy 16 about that subject during that time frame. 17 Q How long after your service in the 18 Counsel's Office had ended did that occur? 19 A Well, I was still carried on paper 20 in the Counsel's Office until I left. I was 21 still a Counsel's Office assignee, I guess 22 you would say. 572 1 Q Well, speaking de facto, if not 2 officially? 3 A Again, I can't tell you the time 4 frame, except it would have been between May 5 and August. 6 Q You made reference to seeing a file 7 in Mr. Kennedy's office with Congressman or 8 what you believed to be Congressman's 9 Clinger's name on it? 10 A I think I said the name Clinger. 11 Q The name Clinger, that's fine. Let 12 me get to the nub of it. Can you describe 13 this file with any greater specificity than 14 you've been able to describe other files that 15 we've been talking about during the course of 16 the deposition? 17 A In terms of what it looked like? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No. 20 Q Did you ever see the contents of 21 this file? 22 A No. 573 1 Q Did anyone ever tell you what was 2 in it? 3 A No. 4 Q Did anyone ever tell you that it 5 was his FBI file? 6 A No. 7 Q Did it say that it was an FBI file 8 on the outside? 9 A It did not. 10 Q Let's talk about your conversations 11 with Ms. Pond. 12 I believe you said the first 13 conversation, where she indicated that the 14 files stacked on Mr. Kennedy's office floor 15 were FBI files, occurred after she had been 16 transferred to the OEOB, correct? 17 A Well, yes, because it was when she 18 was assigned to Bill Kennedy. 19 Q Her transfer you testified was 20 sometime between December of 1993 and 21 January 1994, correct? 22 A Well, I've tried to remember more 574 1 specifically. I know that Betsy was still in 2 the West Wing Counsel's Office when Joel 3 Klein arrived and that was, to the best of my 4 recollection, December of '93. 5 In January of '94, with the 6 escalation of what was Whitewater coverage in 7 the media, during a very intense period, the 8 situation with Betsy also escalated. 9 So, I went away for a few days and 10 when I came back, the situation had been 11 resolved and she was either en route or had 12 moved to the old EOB, so I'm thinking it was 13 closer to the end of January. 14 Q On the occasion, then, where you 15 and Ms. Pond discussed FBI files, did you 16 tell me why were you there in the OEOB suite 17 on that occasion? 18 A I can't tell you. 19 Q Was it routine business or was it 20 something out of the ordinary that you can 21 recall? 22 A I don't remember at this point. 575 1 Q Was it commonplace when you came to 2 the OEOB for you and Ms. Pond to chat, to 3 converse? 4 A There was an element of strain 5 between us at that point. We weren't 6 particularly close at that point, but it 7 wasn't uncommon for us to continue to speak, 8 certainly, and she still worked for my boss, 9 so there was often a need to talk. 10 Then also I think an attempt on my 11 part, at least, and I think on Betsy's, to 12 try to get beyond the issue that had brought 13 her across to the old EOB to begin with. 14 Q Would you talk shop, as they say, 15 talk about the job, job-related subjects in 16 general? 17 A I really, I don't remember now 18 today what Betsy and I talked about 19 routinely. There was dissatisfaction on 20 Betsy's part, what I remember today, in her 21 move, number one, and in the types of 22 assignments she was being given, number two. 576 1 She didn't feel it reflected the promotion 2 her salary increase should have reflected 3 when she moved. 4 Q At the time you and Ms. Pond had 5 the conversation about the stacks of files in 6 Mr. Kennedy's office, do you recall who else 7 was present in the office at that time? 8 A I have no distinct recollection of 9 who was present. I know there were usually 10 people around, though. Betsy did not have a 11 private area. 12 Q Right. But you can't recall 13 specifically anybody who was there at the 14 time? 15 A No. No. At the time, I mean at 16 the time that all this was becoming of -- a 17 piece to me, the significance really wasn't, 18 wasn't glaringly obvious to me. It wasn't 19 transparent at that point. 20 I have since come to believe 21 otherwise. At the time I don't know that I 22 did. I began to be more cognizant, perhaps, 577 1 but I hadn't developed the same level of fear 2 that I developed later on. 3 Q You testified on December 14th when 4 Mr. Klayman asked you how did she identify 5 them as FBI files, you responded she said 6 those are FBI files. I asked the question. 7 Can you recall for me as best you 8 can exactly what question it is you asked of 9 Ms. Pond? 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: First, Ms. Tripp, 11 do you recall that testimony or would you 12 like to read it? 13 THE WITNESS: I recall it. I 14 think -- I think I'd like him to read it so 15 that I can respond accurately, but I think I 16 know what part this was. This had to do with 17 Betsy complaining, I believe. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: It's page 84, starting 19 at line 2. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Thanks. 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 578 1 Q So you see where you said, I asked 2 the question. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Again, to the best of your 5 recollection, what precisely is the question 6 that you asked? 7 A I don't remember precisely what I 8 asked. I think I asked what are all these 9 stacks, what are all these things. They were 10 complaining completely on a daily basis that 11 the vetting was just not happening. It was 12 not happening with judges, it wasn't 13 happening with senior appointments. 14 Betsy was complaining about 15 inputting data. I believe on our second 16 conversation she referenced the inputting of 17 data and the fact that it was a lowly 18 clerical sort of tedious thing to do. 19 She treated it in a confidential 20 tone of voice as opposed to something open 21 and above board, but it wasn't, at the time 22 didn't strike me as one way or the other 579 1 covert or not. 2 I think it was mainly the numbers, 3 the shear numbers that would have made me 4 ask, and I figured Betsy would tell me. 5 Q You testified, at page 84, she said 6 those are FBI files. 7 Again I'm asking you, were those 8 her words, to the best of your recollection? 9 A She used the words FBI, the letters 10 FBI. Yes. 11 Q So she said FBI, did she say those 12 are FBI files? 13 A I don't -- I have testified that 14 that's what she said and that is certainly my 15 recollection of what she said. Was it 16 verbatim, no, she could have said them are 17 FBI files, I don't know, but. 18 Q Now you testified previously that 19 there were a variety of files in 20 Mr. Kennedy's office. 21 How do you know specifically 22 whether Ms. Pond knew which files you were 580 1 referring to? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, assumes 3 facts not testified to. Leading. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I understand your 5 objection. 6 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat, 7 please. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q You testified at our previous 10 session on January 5th, I believe it was, 11 that there were different kinds of files in 12 Mr. Kennedy's office and I'm, what I'm asking 13 you is how do you know that Ms. Pond knew 14 which files you were referring to? 15 A Can you show me where -- where we 16 are talking about? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection, 18 assumes facts not testified to. 19 (Counsel conferred with witness) 20 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 21 Q Page 541. Do you have a copy? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No. 581 1 THE WITNESS: This is not it? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, we stop 3 at 303. 4 MS. WEISMANN: Line 19. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: What page are we 6 talking about? 7 THE WITNESS: 541. Okay, I've read 8 that whole area. What was your question? 9 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 10 Q The question is if there were, as 11 you said, files other than the stacks of 12 files or a variety of files in Mr. Kennedy's 13 office, how do you know that Ms. Pond 14 understood which files you were referring to? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object to the 16 question because I think it calls for the 17 witness to speculate as to Ms. Pond's state 18 of mind, but you can answer the question if 19 you have any information. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, when I asked 21 the question of Betsy, my recollection is 22 that I was referring to the stacks and stacks 582 1 of files, to which I've testified. 2 I think her response to me, what I 3 got at the time, what I continue to feel was 4 accurate now, was that we were speaking of 5 the same stacks. 6 If you're speaking of other files, 7 I mean was there other work on his desk or 8 the vetting files in particular, which he 9 gestured the other way, was not what I was 10 referring to when I asked the question, and I 11 understood from Betsy that she was referring 12 to the same stacks I was. They were hard to 13 miss. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q But that's just your understanding 16 of the situation? 17 A Yes, absolutely. We didn't go in 18 and point to them. 19 Q Let us then move on to the second 20 conversation where she talked about 21 inputting. 22 A Well, she was inputting, yeah. 583 1 Q How long after the first 2 conversation did the second conversation 3 occur? 4 A Again, it was while she was in Bill 5 Kennedy's office, and I can only give it to 6 you in a series of months possibility. I 7 don't know. I don't remember. 8 Q Well, let's start with months, was 9 it months after the first conversation? 10 A No, I'm certain it wasn't that 11 long. If I'm assuming that Betsy moved over 12 in let's say the end of January, the 13 beginning of February of '94, I had left the 14 Counsel's Office by I believe the end of May 15 of '94. I think that this would have been 16 during the time that I was still working for 17 Bernie, so, or, excuse me, still working in 18 the same location where Bernie had been. 19 Q Would you say that the length of 20 time between the two conversations was a 21 matter of weeks, then? 22 A I just don't know. I didn't attach 584 1 all that much significance at that point. 2 Q I understand. Do you recall what 3 the occasion was for you to be in the OEOB 4 suite on that day? 5 A I don't. 6 Q You don't recall it being some sort 7 of particular errand or something out of the 8 ordinary that you would recall? 9 A No, I mean I recall that I had 10 several, two or three, and I believe it was 11 three separate and distinct meetings with 12 Bill Kennedy on business matters. 13 I also recall that I was there 14 relatively frequently on not office-related 15 business, or not even not office-related 16 business, but not on meeting agenda business. 17 It may well have been just to go 18 over to the Counsel's Office to discuss 19 something with Beth Nolan or to talk to their 20 head secretary over there about suspenses. I 21 mean it could have been a myriad, I just 22 don't know. 585 1 Q Now you mentioned during the 2 December 14th session something about you and 3 Ms. Pond taking cigarette breaks together, 4 was this a conversation that took place 5 during a cigarette break? 6 A No. 7 Q This conversation took place inside 8 the OEOB suite? 9 A I recall her actually -- I recall 10 there being a time when the conversation took 11 place, we were actually sitting there and she 12 was actually inputting. 13 I also recall a time when we were 14 sitting there and she made this sort of 15 movement with her hands to indicate she was 16 still inputting data. It was much along the 17 lines of a complaint a mantra about her 18 dissatisfaction about what she was doing. 19 Again, I didn't think it was all that big a 20 deal. 21 Q Now you testified then on 22 December 14th that when she was speaking of 586 1 this complaint, and doing the pecking motion 2 with her forefingers, that you asked does he, 3 meaning Mr. Kennedy, do a lot of mail and she 4 said no, no, no, no, it's not, it's the 5 files, and she pointed back. Do you recall? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, why don't 7 you show her the testimony. 8 THE WITNESS: Actually, I do recall 9 that, though. 10 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 11 Q Thank you. Now, where was Ms. Pond 12 seated, excuse me, was she seated at her 13 desk, for that matter, during this 14 conversation? 15 A My recollection is that she was. 16 Q Now you testified earlier that as 17 you entered the main, through the main 18 doorway to the suite, her desk was on the 19 left? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Which way would she have been 22 facing when she was seated at her desk? 587 1 A Instead of, instead of facing 2 Mr. Kennedy's area and instead of facing the 3 opposite wall to that, my recollection is 4 that she was catty-cornered, facing both me 5 and her computer at the same time, if you can 6 envision that. 7 Q I'm not sure I can. 8 A You walk in the door. 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Would you like her 10 to draw a diagram? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not very good at 12 artwork. Maybe I can just be more clear. 13 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 14 Q Let's say that that door there is 15 the main entrance to the office suite. 16 A I'm not -- this isn't going to 17 work. 18 Q That's not going to work, all 19 right, you try it. 20 A Let's say this is the door, I'm 21 coming in the door. This is something, I 22 don't know whether it was a credenza or a 588 1 little something, and then this was Betsy 2 (indicating). 3 Q Her desk? 4 A Her desk. Her computer. This was 5 a wall to the corridor, because I'm coming in 6 the door from the corridor. Bill Kennedy's 7 office would have been somewhere back here, 8 but close by. 9 I believe she was sitting facing me 10 and the computer, sort of like this, and 11 that's probably about as accurate as I can 12 get (indicating). 13 Q So, do I understand correctly then 14 from where she was seated, Mr. Kennedy's 15 office would have been to the left and behind 16 her? 17 A To the left. Sort of, yeah. 18 Certainly to the back. Yeah, depending, from 19 her perspective, yeah. I don't know what arm 20 she used, if that's your next question. I 21 have no idea. 22 Q Well, let me just, I'm not 589 1 interested in which arm. 2 A Oh, good. 3 Q But when you say she pointed back, 4 can you do the gesture that you meant to 5 indicate -- 6 A I'm real afraid to do that right at 7 this moment. I'm not seated where she was 8 seated and I think it's putting too much 9 emphasis on a memory that's clear to me in 10 terms of my impression, but which I wouldn't 11 want to reenact for fear you'll attack me. 12 I knew what she meant. She was 13 pointing to Mr. Kennedy's office. We had 14 spoken about those files. She had referred 15 to them as FBI files before. I don't think 16 either one of us misunderstood the other. 17 Q But, so she pointed towards 18 Mr. Kennedy's office; is that the bottom line 19 for you? 20 A That's what I understood her to be 21 gesturing toward, yes. 22 Q She said the files, correct? 590 1 A That's my recollection. 2 Q You understood her to mean FBI 3 files? 4 A I understood her to mean the same 5 files we had spoken of earlier on another 6 conversation where we had had a pretty 7 lengthy discussion about that, so. 8 Q When you say a lengthy 9 conversation, you're referring to the first 10 conversation? 11 A Well, the first conversation and on 12 cigarette breaks when she had, I think maybe 13 I haven't been clear, she bemoaned her status 14 and her current area of responsibility, 15 frequently, and so I remember her saying she 16 felt like a data entry clerk. 17 Q But are you saying that the first 18 conversation you had about FBI files was a 19 lengthy one? 20 A I can't remember how lengthy each 21 conversation was, except that we discussed 22 what she was doing in terms of entering data 591 1 into the computer at length and frequently. 2 Q Well, when she said the files, did 3 you ask her a question, something to the 4 effect, do you mean the FBI files? 5 A No. 6 Q So other than her pointing back, is 7 it fair to say that you have no indication of 8 which files she meant, other than she pointed 9 in the direction of Mr. Kennedy's office? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, misstates 11 prior testimony, leading. 12 THE WITNESS: Can I answer? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. 14 THE WITNESS: I have to say that my 15 understanding was that we were talking about 16 the same files, so. 17 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 18 Q But other than Ms. Pond pointing in 19 the direction of Mr. Kennedy's office, you 20 have no knowledge what her understanding was, 21 do you? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, misstates 592 1 prior testimony, leading. 2 THE WITNESS: I can only base it on 3 our other conversations. It's like anything 4 else, you, if you're asking me was that my 5 assumption based on what she said at that 6 time, it's like any other conversation, yes. 7 Certainly I wasn't in her head. 8 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 9 Q Now, when Ms. Pond, during this 10 second conversation when she pointed at 11 Mr. Kennedy's office, did you actually saw 12 she her inputting data during this 13 conversation? 14 A Well, I saw her entering something 15 in to the computer. But let me be clear, 16 when I say second conversation, I mean second 17 conversation that I believe made direct 18 reference to FBI files. 19 There were other conversations that 20 we had, separate and apart from those, which 21 I'm not enumerating at this point that talked 22 about the data entry. 593 1 Q I understand. 2 A You do, okay. 3 Q I do. Again, coming back and 4 calling it the second conversation, did you 5 actually see her while you were having this 6 conversation inputting data in to the 7 computer? 8 A That's my recollection. 9 Q That's your recollection. You say 10 at the same time there were stacks of these 11 files that had the same commonality that 12 you've spoken of on her desk? 13 A She had files that looked like 14 those of the stacks in her area and was 15 entering data. I did not see what she was 16 using. 17 Q You didn't see what she was 18 inputting from? 19 A No, I didn't, I didn't really even 20 pay attention. She was doing it. 21 Q As far as the stacks that were on 22 her desk that day, did you ever see the 594 1 contents of any of those files? 2 A I don't know. I don't think I -- 3 if I did, it didn't make an impression. 4 Q No one ever told you what was 5 contained in those files? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 7 asked and answered. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, only from what 9 she told me before. 10 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 11 Q Meaning her earlier reference to 12 FBI files? 13 A Yes. 14 Q But in terms of actually picking up 15 one of those files and being able to look at 16 it or somebody describing to you in detail 17 the contents of any of those files that were 18 on her desk that day, did anybody ever do 19 that? 20 A No, uh-uh. 21 Q You also mentioned on December 14th 22 a conversation with Ms. Gorham in the same 595 1 OEOB suite, as I recollect, where she also 2 complained about inputting data in to a 3 database; do you recall that testimony? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q Did Ms. Gorham identify the 6 database? 7 A No. 8 Q Did she ever describe it in any way 9 to you? 10 A The only thing I recall Debra 11 saying to me about the database at all was 12 that it was not one that we had in the West 13 Wing because I was under the impression at 14 that time that she was working on the 15 computer that had been hers when she was 16 Vince Foster's assistant in the West Wing. 17 Q Did you ever see the database she 18 was typing into, did you ever see her 19 actually typing? 20 A I saw the screen, yeah. 21 Q The one you referred to as having 22 columns? 596 1 A Some columns, and some narrative. 2 Q Other than recollecting there being 3 columns and some narrative, is there anything 4 more you can say about the nature of what you 5 saw on the screen? 6 A Well, I hadn't seen it anywhere 7 else. 8 Q Anything else? 9 A Anything else? 10 Q That you can recollect about what 11 it was? 12 A I don't believe so. I seem to 13 remember a color. I don't know the 14 significance of that or not. 15 Q Do you remember what color it was? 16 A No, sorry. 17 Q If I may, just swing back 18 momentarily to something we talked about at 19 the outset, your statement about 20 representations that Ms. Pond made to you in 21 connection with obtaining Counsel; is that 22 what it was? 597 1 A I think I spoke about that when you 2 asked me about Mr. Klayman's questions to me 3 in the lunchroom. 4 Q Right. That's what I'm referring 5 to. What were the representations that 6 Ms. Pond made to you? 7 A Oh, several. Some had to do with 8 activities in the aftermath of Vince Foster's 9 death the following day, representations she 10 made to me as to how she would answer 11 questions if asked by law enforcement, and 12 over time how she would answer questions if 13 deposed on that same subject, which were 14 untruthful, which were untruthful 15 representations at that point. 16 When we were all told that we 17 should probably retain Counsel, Betsy was 18 active in assisting several of us retain 19 Counsel and made representations during that 20 time about how it would be in our best 21 interest to find an Administration friendly 22 attorney to ensure that information that we 598 1 didn't want out there in the public domain 2 was protected. 3 Things of that nature. We had many 4 such conversations. 5 Q What were the answers about 6 Mr. Foster's death that you believe would 7 have been untruthful? 8 A Having to do with Betsy's movements 9 the following morning, the morning we came in 10 to the office. 11 Q Can you be more specific than that? 12 A Sure. 13 Q Please. 14 A The morning that we came in to the 15 office following the discovery of 16 Mr. Foster's body, Betsy had gone in to 17 Mr. Foster's office before anyone got there 18 and searched the office for a note. 19 When I got there in the later, 20 around 8 or so in the morning, Betsy was on 21 the phone with Mr. Nussbaum who I guess had 22 instructed her in no uncertain terms not to 599 1 go in to Mr. Foster's office and to ensure 2 that no one else went in to Mr. Foster's 3 office. 4 So when I came in, she immediately 5 sort of screamed don't go in his office, 6 don't go in his office, I have Bernie on the 7 phone. 8 When she hung up, she told me that 9 she had planned to tell Bernie and anyone 10 else that she went in there to straighten up, 11 but that actually she had gone in to look for 12 a note and had gone through his papers. 13 Q Ms. Pond told you that she had gone 14 in to Mr. Foster's office with the purpose of 15 searching for a note? 16 A For a suicide note. 17 Q For a suicide note? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Did she tell you why she had done 20 that? 21 A Did she tell me why. No, I don't 22 think she did. 600 1 Q Did she tell you why, if asked, she 2 would say that she had not been in his 3 office? 4 A The concern was that Mr. Nussbaum 5 had told her on the phone that under no 6 circumstances was anyone to enter the area of 7 Mr. Foster's desk in his office. 8 Q Mr. Nussbaum was her boss? 9 A Yes. 10 Q You then said that Ms. Pond told 11 you that it would be in your best interests 12 to get a "administration friendly attorney" 13 to represent you in connection with the 14 investigation of Mr. Foster's suicide; is 15 that correct? 16 A In words with that meaning, yes. 17 Q Why does that representation lead 18 you to believe that Ms. Pond would testify 19 untruthfully? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 21 compound question. I'm not sure that that's 22 the reason why, but maybe a predicate 601 1 question would be, and I would only suggest 2 this to you, is the fact that Ms. Pond 3 suggested that she obtain an administration 4 friendly attorney part of her belief why she 5 thinks Ms. Pond would testify untruthfully. 6 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 7 Q How does that contribute to your 8 belief that Ms. Pond would testify 9 untruthfully? 10 A Well, I mean there were various 11 conversations we had about this subject and 12 other subjects and in which Betsy made it 13 very clear to me that she had a history with 14 Mrs. Clinton, a history with Mr. Nussbaum, 15 and that she was a loyal team player. 16 My sense and, in fact, in 17 conversations, I gleaned from Betsy that her 18 definition of a loyal team player and mine 19 were completely different. Her definition of 20 a loyal team player meant that you took steps 21 to ensure that only that information that the 22 Administration would want out got out, and I 602 1 didn't agree with that and I don't to this 2 day. 3 Q Did she ever say that those steps 4 included not testifying truthfully under 5 oath? 6 A She intimated, yes, those very 7 words and also said that she would take steps 8 not to have to testify, whether it was -- 9 there were various scenarios she spoke of and 10 she also spoke of having worked for 19 or so 11 years, I'm not sure how many, in law firms 12 and that she knew how to do that. 13 Q Can you describe for me in any 14 specificity any conversation you ever had 15 with Ms. Pond where she indicated that she 16 would not testify truthfully under oath? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 18 answered. 19 THE WITNESS: She said that more 20 than once. 21 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 22 Q Tell me about any case where she 603 1 said that? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Asked and answered. 3 THE WITNESS: A specific? 4 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 5 Q Yes. 6 A I mean I'm telling you that my 7 conversations with Betsy about this subject 8 always led me to believe that that's what I 9 was expected to do, as well. 10 Q I'm just asking for you to tell me 11 what it is she said that would lead you to 12 believe any of this, other than the fact that 13 you concluded this? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound 15 question, asked and answered. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't 17 conclude it out of whole cloth. 18 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 19 Q I'm trying to find out what the 20 foundation is for your belief, that's all. 21 A Conversations with Betsy Pond. 22 Q Can you describe them, any one of 604 1 them in any specificity? 2 A Verbatim, no, I can't. I can tell 3 you that we had these conversations, it was 4 unsettling to me. It was disturbing to me. 5 Frankly, I -- there were times when 6 Deb Gorham was a participant in these 7 conversations where I got the sense that 8 without her saying so, I got the sense that 9 Deb's leaning, if she had one, was more 10 towards Betsy's school of thought than mine. 11 Q What did Ms. Gorham say that would 12 lead you to believe that? 13 A I can't today, years later, give 14 you verbatim conversations. I can only tell 15 you that it was alarming to me. I had talked 16 about getting a legal defense attorney, I 17 forget what they are called now, and that was 18 disturbing to Betsy and to Bernie, but 19 specifically Betsy was the one who found the 20 Paul Hastings attorney for me. 21 It was certainly, it was certainly 22 something that was made clear to me. This 605 1 wasn't something that I imagined. 2 Q Other than Ms. Gorham, were there 3 any other people you can name who 4 participated or overheard these conversations 5 with Ms. Pond? 6 A Overheard? 7 Q Yes. 8 A I don't think this is the kind of 9 conversation you would have in a busy room 10 with people overhearing. 11 Q Well, you said Ms. Gorham was privy 12 to one of these conversations? 13 A Right, she was. More than one, 14 actually. 15 Q More than one, okay. Who else, if 16 you can remember? 17 A I don't think anyone else. 18 Q Again, I just want to be clear, can 19 you remember any specific words that Ms. Pond 20 used which led you to believe that she was 21 going to testify untruthfully or that you 22 were expected to testify untruthfully? 606 1 A Specific words, no. I just can't. 2 I remember conversations, snippets of 3 conversations. As you asked me just now, I 4 remember part of a conversation about the 5 lawyers, the associates accompanying us to 6 FBI or Park Police interrogations and her 7 comment to me that we should say that that 8 was our idea, that we wanted the Office of 9 General Counsel to represent us in these 10 interviews. 11 I said that's not true. I didn't 12 ask for them. In fact, I still don't 13 understand today how a White House lawyer 14 representing the institution of the President 15 can represent me as a staff member in any 16 legal sense, so. 17 Q Any other snippets that you can 18 recall? 19 A I'm sure there could be. At the 20 top of -- I'd have to go back and think about 21 this. This is six years old, almost. It's 22 hard for me to get to. 607 1 My sense was clear from Betsy and 2 less so from Deb. 3 Q Just a couple more things, then, 4 Ms. Tripp. 5 You testified on December 14th that 6 on an occasion when you were in 7 Mr. Livingstone's office, the Office of 8 Personnel Security, that you saw some of the 9 files that shared the commonality with the 10 stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office, albeit far 11 fewer in number. 12 Can you give me any estimate of 13 what that number was that you saw in 14 Mr. Livingstone's office? 15 A Give you an estimate of the number? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Significantly fewer than in 18 Mr. Kennedy's office. I wouldn't attempt to 19 give you a number in Mr. Kennedy's office, so 20 it would be hard to do it in 21 Mr. Livingstone's office. 22 Very small amount in comparison. 608 1 Q Were there dozens, were there 2 hundreds? 3 A Well, I have never, press reports 4 that I've read allude to 900 FBI files. I've 5 always thought that what I saw was 6 significantly more. 7 Q In Mr. Kennedy's office? 8 A Yes. 9 Q I'm referring, if I was vague, to 10 Mr. Livingstone's office. 11 A Right, so I don't know that I'm the 12 best judge of numbers. 13 I don't even remember stacks and 14 stacks. I remember having an impression that 15 these were the same as those in Mr. Kennedy's 16 office and elsewhere. 17 Q You testified that Mr. Livingstone 18 and Mr. Marceca told you that these were not, 19 to use your words, security background files? 20 A Could you read me that portion, 21 please. 22 Q Sure, it's page 136 of the 609 1 December 14th transcript, line 1. 135 2 to 136, yes, thank you. 3 A Okay, could you repeat your 4 question, please. 5 Q Now that you've read the testimony, 6 I take it you recall it? 7 A Yeah, I do. 8 Q I guess, well let me put it this 9 way, did you ask Mr. Livingstone or 10 Mr. Marceca what these files were? 11 A Well, I think I testified that I 12 spoke to them on different occasions and that 13 is my recollection that they were not, I 14 didn't speak to them at the same time. 15 I asked them both separately what 16 those were and it had to do with actually a 17 business reason for asking, something to do 18 with the logging system for security 19 background files that had to do with Craig 20 Livingstone's assistant, trying to get a 21 promotion, business cards, that kind of 22 thing, writing a job description and 610 1 justifying a pay grade promotion and title 2 change. 3 It was in that regard, I believe, 4 that my conversation with Craig occurred 5 about those, about are these the security 6 background folders, files, whatever, that you 7 would log in. We were trying to write, 8 actually, a job description, a new job 9 description for the assistant. 10 Q I see. Having told you what they 11 were not, did they tell you what they were? 12 A No. 13 Q Can you with any greater 14 specificity than any of the other files we've 15 talked about describe these files? 16 A No. 17 Q Did they say anything on the 18 outside to indicate that they were FBI files? 19 A No, they just looked like the other 20 ones which had been pointed out to me as 21 being FBI files. 22 Q Do you have a recollection of when 611 1 this conversation took place? 2 A No, I don't even know if it 3 pre-dated the FBI explanation from Betsy. 4 When I say it's all of a piece, I mean that 5 eventually it all made sense to me. Again, 6 that's only my conclusion. 7 Q Did you ever know anybody at the 8 White House named Nancy Gemmel? 9 A The name, but I don't have a 10 distinct recollection. 11 Q Do you have a recollection of her 12 working in the Office of Personnel Security? 13 A If I'm not mistaken, my 14 recollection is that she was there in the 15 Bush White House. 16 Q Did you ever have any dealings with 17 Gemmel when you were in the Bush White House? 18 A I think so, I just don't recall 19 specifically. I didn't work for the 20 Counsel's Office in the Bush White House, so 21 I would have had far fewer dealings with that 22 office on a professional basis. 612 1 Q Do you recall whether all the files 2 that you saw in Mr. Livingstone's office 3 looked the same or do you have a recollection 4 of them looking different? 5 A This fell off. 6 Q I understand. 7 A I don't have the same clear 8 recollection that I had in Bill Kennedy's 9 office, except that I remember saying -- 10 thinking to myself, these look like the other 11 ones. 12 I can't tell you right now if that 13 meant these look like the ones in Bill 14 Kennedy's office or these look like the ones 15 that were on Vince's desk that ended up in 16 the safe. To me, they just reminded me of 17 the other ones I had seen. 18 Q Well, I'm just asking, focusing 19 specifically and exclusively on 20 Mr. Livingstone's office. 21 A I know that, but you're asking me 22 if they -- 613 1 Q Do you recall there being in his 2 office basically one kind of file or many 3 different kinds of files? 4 A Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood the 5 question. 6 Q That's okay. 7 A I recall that there were files that 8 I was shown during the time that Craig was 9 trying to get his assistant promoted in 10 showing me the logging system that were 11 different from the files I'm referencing when 12 I speak of files I saw in Craig's office. I 13 know he's going to ask me, how are they 14 different. I don't remember. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Let him ask the 16 question. 17 THE WITNESS: I know. He's the one 18 with no time. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: We are going to have 20 a period, Ms. Tripp, when you get to ask 21 Mr. Gilligan questions at the end. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sure he'll be 614 1 thrilled. 2 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 3 Q In our December 14th session you 4 testified that while you worked at the White 5 House, the files on your desktop, the 6 computer files on your desktop computer were 7 backed up to some sort of server or computer 8 system? 9 A Oh. 10 Q Do you recall that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do you recall when that back-up 13 system came into place? 14 A No, I don't. I know that we were 15 told and in practicality found this to be 16 true, that nothing ever disappeared, even if 17 you lost data, somehow, that it could be 18 retrieved elsewhere and routinely was. 19 Q Do you recall whether this system 20 was in place during the Bush Administration? 21 A Well, I don't know that it was the 22 same system. I know that I was able to 615 1 request assistance through the computer shop 2 and retrieve lost data. I remember a 3 specific instance in the late Fall of '92 4 where we were able to do that, so that was 5 during the Bush time. 6 Q Sure, okay. You reference this 7 back-up system having a nickname Big Brother, 8 do you recall testifying to that? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Testifies 10 to facts. Why don't you show her the 11 testimony. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I'll conduct the 13 deposition in my own fashion. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll object in my own 15 fashion, how's that. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Okay, all right. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Assumes facts not in 18 evidence. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: You objected. 20 Please don't purport to instruct me how to 21 conduct the deposition, Mr. Klayman. That's 22 all I ask. 616 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mrs. Trip, would 2 you like to look at your testimony before you 3 answer the question? 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I would. 5 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 6 Q There were several examples, why 7 don't you try page 112 of the December 14th 8 transcript. 9 A Okay. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: 112? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Yes. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, okay, 13 uh-huh. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q The nickname Big Brother, do you 16 recall whether this back-up system had that 17 nickname during the Bush Administration, as 18 well? 19 A I don't. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, compound. 21 THE WITNESS: But let me clarify, 22 it's capitalized here as a name and maybe I 617 1 misspoke. 2 We never, I don't recall ever being 3 told that there was a back-up system named 4 Big Brother. We referred to it as Big 5 Brother as sort of a good thing. This is 6 something we can count on to retrieve data. 7 It was also in this context that we 8 understood that our electronic mail 9 transmissions were kept indefinitely. 10 This is separate and apart from 11 what the Clinton Administration began in 12 terms of saving or assigning, assigning 13 Presidential record delineation of files. 14 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 15 Q A preexisting? 16 A I think that was a Clinton 17 Administration initiative. I don't believe 18 we did that in the Bush White House. We may 19 well have at the end, I don't think so. 20 But this Big Brother name bothers 21 me in that it sounds like we were discussing 22 a database of some sort that had some sort of 618 1 nefarious reason for existence. That's not 2 how we thought of it. 3 Q When you say we, who's we? 4 A The people in the Counsel's Office 5 with whom I worked, any of us who used the 6 computers. 7 Q When we spoke on January 5th, and 8 I'll tell you it's page 512 of that 9 transcript, if you want to look at it, you 10 said that you were told that the file 11 concerning Mr. Inman? 12 A Bobby Inman's vetting file. 13 Q Right, as you say, had come from 14 Mr. Kennedy's office? 15 A Can I read this again? 16 Q Sure. Sure, page 512. 17 A We thought all vetting came from 18 Mr. Kennedy's office. 19 Where is that, line 9 you're 20 referring to? 21 Q I'm actually referring to line 21. 22 A Uh-huh. 619 1 Q Do you recall who told you that? 2 A I don't. To be completely clear, 3 any time we talked about vetting files, we 4 thought or were told or I think any of us can 5 answer that we thought it came from Bill 6 Kennedy's office, to a certain point, and 7 then we thought it came from Beth Nolan's 8 office. 9 We didn't believe that any vetting 10 files originated in the West Wing, so I 11 didn't pull that out of thin air in terms of 12 at the time didn't just guess it came from 13 Mr. Kennedy's office, so I'm assuming that 14 someone told me and I don't know who. 15 Q Other than the conversation you had 16 with Mr. Klayman, just prior to the 17 deposition today, have you had any 18 conversations with Mr. Klayman since our 19 January 5th session of the deposition? 20 A Me? 21 Q Yes. 22 A No. 620 1 Q Just checking. 2 A No. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: I think I'll take a 4 break here and see if I have anything else 5 and if I don't, someone else will forge 6 ahead. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 8 at 2:39 p.m. 9 (Recess) 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 11 at 3:02 p.m. 12 BY MR. GILLIGAN: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, do you recall testifying 14 before the Senate Special Whitewater 15 Committee regarding Mr. Foster's death in 16 August of 1995? 17 A Yes. 18 Q To the best of your recollection, 19 did you testify truthfully, accurately and 20 completely as best you could? 21 A I didn't testify completely. 22 Q You did not testify completely? 621 1 A No. 2 Q What did you not testify completely 3 to? 4 A Many issues. 5 Q Did you answer every question that 6 was put to you as truthfully, accurately and 7 completely as you could? 8 A I answered each question narrowly 9 and truthfully. 10 Q But nevertheless, accurately? 11 A Narrowly, truthfully, if narrowly. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I have no further 13 questions. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Can we just pause for 15 one moment? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Pausing for 17 Ms. Ziegler? 18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT 19 HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Tripp. My name 22 is Paul Gaffney. I'm an attorney at Williams 622 1 and Connolly. I'm representing the First 2 Lady in this matter. 3 On page 27 of your December 14th 4 testimony, you stated that you endeavored to 5 write a book to expose several of the 6 scandals that I had witnessed during my time 7 at the White House; do you recall that 8 testimony? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q Is this the book project involving 11 Maggie Gallagher that you testified to during 12 your Grand Jury appearance? 13 A It is. 14 Q Do you still have a copy of that 15 book proposal? 16 A I don't, I don't know where it is 17 at this moment. 18 Q When's the last time you've seen 19 that? 20 A I don't remember, to tell you the 21 truth. 22 Q What did you do with the copy you 623 1 had? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q When's the last time you saw a copy 4 of it? 5 A Didn't you just ask me that. 6 Q I'll ask it again. 7 A I don't remember, again. 8 Q How many pages was it? 9 A I don't remember. It was a draft. 10 Q Who actually wrote it? 11 A It was typed by Maggie Gallagher. 12 Q Do you know whether it was done on 13 a word processor? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Who else had copies of it at the 16 time you looked at it? 17 A I don't think anyone had a copy. 18 Q Ms. Gallagher had a copy? 19 A She FedExed me her draft. 20 Q How about Ms. Goldberg, did she 21 have a copy? 22 A I don't think so, but not from me, 624 1 in any event. 2 Q Do you know whether she ever saw 3 it? 4 A Not from me. I don't know. 5 Q When you made reference to several 6 of the scandals, what episodes were you 7 referring to? 8 A The idea of the book evolved over 9 time, but it evolved, came to a head during 10 the time that Gary Aldrich's book had been 11 published and he had been vilified by the 12 White House and its apologists as being, at 13 best, disingenuous and at worst, a liar and 14 someone who was misrepresenting the truth. 15 The idea, my idea was to vindicate 16 Gary Aldrich and to show on a more personal 17 level exactly how true what he had written 18 was and bring it another step beyond that. 19 Q I appreciate your answer on that, 20 but when you testified on December 14th that 21 you endeavored to write a book to expose 22 several of the scandals identify for me 625 1 specifically which of the scandals, to use 2 your word, you were referring to? 3 A Certainly the women having to do 4 with the President, that was one chapter. 5 There were chapters about the firing of the 6 Travel Office and events that led up to that 7 firing, the aftermath of that. 8 Certainly information about the 9 events leading up to and the aftermath of 10 Vince Foster's death, Whitewater related, the 11 appointing of a special prosecutor, 12 information about Mr. Kendall. 13 Q How about the FBI files matter? 14 A I don't remember, to tell you the 15 truth. 16 Q Is it likely that you would have 17 put that in there? 18 A I believe it was in there. I 19 believe yes. I just don't have a specific 20 recollection about, to what degree of detail 21 there was, but since I had spoken to Tony 22 Snow at length about this, it would be my 626 1 conclusion that I would have certainly 2 included that. 3 Q Did you make any effort to obtain a 4 copy of this book proposal, let's call it, in 5 response to the subpoena Mr. Klayman served 6 on you? 7 A From where? I don't know what you 8 mean. 9 Q Did you call anyone to say do you 10 have a copy of that, I need to produce it in 11 connection with this lawsuit? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q You don't know whether you made any 14 effort to find this? 15 A Oh, no, I don't know anyone who has 16 it. 17 Q Did you call Ms. Gallagher? 18 A I don't think I even have 19 Ms. Gallagher's phone number. 20 Q Did you call Ms. Goldberg to ask 21 her whether she had a copy? 22 A No, I never knew Ms. Goldberg to 627 1 have a copy of this. It was my understanding 2 that Maggie had sent me her draft and I 3 didn't send it back because it was not going 4 to go anywhere, we decided. 5 It was too sensational. It was not 6 worth losing an 18-year Government career. 7 It was a cowardly thing to do to withdraw. 8 Q Did you look for a copy of this 9 book proposal in your own files in connection 10 with this subpoena? 11 A I've looked in my own files for 12 anything responsive to this subpoena. 13 Q Mr. Gilligan asked you as his last 14 question or series of questions whether you 15 recall testifying in front of the House 16 Committee, I believe? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Senate Whitewater 18 Committee. 19 THE WITNESS: Senate Banking 20 Committee. 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q Do you recall giving a deposition 628 1 in July 1995 to a House Committee 2 investigating the Whitewater matter? 3 A A House Committee, no, I don't 4 think I did. 5 Q Do you recall giving a deposition 6 and I'm saying that as opposed to testifying 7 actually in front of -- 8 A It was a Senate Banking Committee 9 deposition. 10 Q You were under oath in that matter? 11 A Correct. 12 Q You testified truthfully, I assume? 13 A I testified truthfully and narrowly 14 throughout that entire procedure. 15 Q But you were never purposefully 16 misleading in any respect, were you? 17 A When called upon to give my 18 opinions, I gave the most positive spin I 19 could within the confines and constraints of 20 being truthful, yeah. 21 Q But when asked for factual 22 testimony, you certainly provided truthful 629 1 testimony? 2 A Why don't you give me an example of 3 what you're asking. 4 Q Well, I just want to -- 5 A I did not lie under oath. I was 6 not complete under oath. 7 Q Thank you. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I'd ask you to mark 9 this as Tripp Exhibit 10. 10 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 10 11 was marked for identification.) 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, I'd ask you to take a 14 look at what we've had marked as Tripp 15 Exhibit 10, which I'll represent to you is 16 excerpts from a Senate Banking Committee 17 matter. 18 It says deposition of Linda R. 19 Tripp; do you see that? 20 A I do. 21 Q Could you turn to the page that 22 says 3568 at the top; do you see that? 630 1 A I see the number. 2 Q Look at the page marked 48, if you 3 would. 4 In line 3 there's a question, do 5 you see that question, it was your 6 understanding that the relationship between 7 the White House Counsel's Office and the 8 First Lady's office was close. You say 9 close. 10 The question is there were a lot of 11 contacts between the First Lady's office and 12 the White House Counsel's Office. You 13 answered well, we also had a lot of contact 14 with the immediate office, with Bruce 15 Lindsay, with the Chief of Staff's office as 16 well, so I don't know how you define close. 17 Do you see that? 18 A Uh-huh. 19 Q That was truthful testimony, I 20 gather? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Could you look at the next page, it 631 1 says 3569 at the top and it looks to be 2 deposition page 49. 3 The questioning that begins on 4 line 7, do you see that? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q Could you take a moment to just 7 review down to the end of that page 49. 8 A Right, I see this. 9 Q That testimony was accurate; is 10 that correct? 11 A That's right. 12 Q I would like to refer you to your 13 testimony from January 5th. 14 A Okay. 15 Q I actually brought a copy of this, 16 I don't know if Mr. Zaccagnini has one, but 17 I'm not going to mark it as an exhibit, but 18 why don't you supply it to the witness. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, we don't have 20 it, please. 21 THE WITNESS: It's right here. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm sorry, it's 632 1 right here. 2 THE WITNESS: What page? 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q Let's see, page 361. Starting on 5 line 14, do you see that Mr. Klayman asked 6 you the question, is it your belief that 7 Foster and Kennedy took orders from Hillary 8 Clinton, do you believe that? I objected. 9 Then you answer yes; do you see that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Can you recall any specific orders 12 that Mrs. Clinton gave to Mr. Foster or 13 Mr. Kennedy? 14 A Well, the question was is it your 15 belief. 16 Q I understand that, I understand 17 it's your belief. 18 A So I'm telling you that to this 19 day, it is my belief that specifically Vince 20 Foster and Bill Kennedy worked for 21 Mrs. Clinton. Was it on a wiring diagram so 22 indicating, no, it was not. 633 1 Q I understand your testimony. My 2 question is whether you recall any specific 3 orders that Mrs. Clinton gave either of those 4 two individuals? 5 A I remember an order having to do 6 with the firing of the Travel Office from 7 Mrs. Clinton to Mr. Foster, yes. 8 Q What was that order? 9 A In handwriting on a memo in 10 Mrs. Clinton's hand signed HRC, which said, 11 we need our people out, out underlined -- we 12 need these people out, out underlined, we 13 need our people in, in underlined, HRC. 14 That was on a memo and it is 15 something that I discussed with Phil Larson, 16 actually, during the time that he, contacted 17 me when he was working on a House Committee 18 looking into the Travel Office. 19 Q Other than that instance, are you 20 aware of any other? 21 A I can only tell you what I observed 22 with Craig Livingstone, Bill Kennedy and 634 1 Vince Foster and I reiterate that -- 2 Q You've testified to that? 3 A I'm sorry? 4 Q Is that what you testified to? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Let her 6 answer. 7 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 8 Q You can answer. 9 A Well, you can tell me if I have 10 already. I believe I have stated in the past 11 that it was my belief that these individuals 12 had a direct line of communication with 13 Mrs. Clinton and did not seem to have that 14 same interaction with the immediate office. 15 Our office certainly did. I'm 16 speaking of these three individuals 17 specifically. 18 Q Now in your testimony on the first 19 day you stated that there was a meeting in 20 Mr. Foster's office and that Deb Gorham, you 21 asked Deb Gorham what the meeting was about 22 and she wrote something down that said Travel 635 1 Office? 2 A That's right. 3 Q Did I accurately paraphrase that? 4 A Yes, uh-huh. 5 Q How many times did Ms. Gorham tell 6 you that a specific meeting was about the 7 Travel Office? 8 A I'm not sure I understand the 9 question. 10 Q Was it just that one time? Let me 11 rephrase the question. Is that the only time 12 Deb Gorham told you that a specific meeting 13 was about the Travel Office? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q How many other times did she tell 16 you that? 17 A Again, I don't remember how many 18 other times. I do know that I, in my 19 recollection, the first time I saw this odd 20 compilation of folks come in to our office, 21 when I asked the question was when she wrote 22 down Travel Office. I don't believe it was 636 1 the only time we spoke of it. 2 Q But you can't recall a specific 3 time that you did; is that fair to say? 4 A What do you mean? 5 Q You recall the once, a specific 6 instance? 7 A I remember her writing down Travel 8 Office, certainly, yes. 9 Q Other than that time, can you 10 recall any specific instance where she said 11 they are meeting about the Travel Office or 12 so indicated to you? 13 A More than that time and not in 14 writing. 15 Q I'd ask you to turn back to your 16 House deposition, the excerpt of which I gave 17 you. 18 A House, you mean Senate? 19 Q I'm sorry, the Senate. Page 3567, 20 it's the second to last question on the 21 bottom of that page. 22 A I'm sorry, on what page? 637 1 Q 3567. 2 A Okay. 3 Q Do you see that, and you were asked 4 the question, you're being asked questions 5 about Maggie Williams; do you see that? 6 A Okay, what line? 7 Q Line 18. 8 A What does that speak to? Could you 9 clarify the time? 10 Q Well, take as much time as you want 11 to review this excerpt of your testimony. 12 A I don't even know what we are 13 talking about here. Oh, visits with the 14 First Lady, is that the area? 15 Q Right. There's a question on 16 line 7 there, was Maggie Williams a frequent 17 visitor of Mr. Foster; and you indicated yes? 18 A Oh, we are down on that page, okay, 19 sorry. I was up on the other one. 20 Where shall I stop? 21 Q See the question that begins on 22 line 18, do you have any understanding as to 638 1 the types of matters that Mr. Foster was 2 working on with Ms. Williams? 3 A Correct. 4 Q I have no firsthand knowledge; that 5 was your response, correct? 6 A Yes, I see that. 7 Q Then the question is, do you have 8 any second-hand knowledge. Your answer is 9 not really, I never asked any questions, so 10 it wasn't my business what Maggie wanted. 11 A This pertains to matters having to 12 do with the First Lady, does it not? 13 Q I'm not exactly sure what it 14 pertains to, it's just a question about 15 matters that Ms. Williams was working on with 16 Mr. Foster. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I would just say 18 allow the witness to take time to review the 19 testimony so she can figure out what it 20 pertains to. 21 THE WITNESS: This appears to me, 22 unless I'm mistaken, that this testimony 639 1 starting with 18 refers to first- or 2 second-hand knowledge about the business that 3 Maggie Williams had with Mr. Foster; am I not 4 correct? 5 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 6 Q Correct? 7 A So what is your question? 8 Q Before that you say that she was 9 one of Mr. Foster's most frequent visitors. 10 A True. 11 Q In your testimony on the 14th you 12 seemed to indicate that there were a number 13 of meetings in Mr. Foster's office and that 14 Maggie Williams attended at least some of 15 them; is that correct? 16 A Are we talking about the Travel 17 Office meetings? 18 Q Just meetings around that time, 19 which I assume were in -- 20 A Well I think what you're -- I don't 21 know what you're referring to. 22 I know that I referenced in my 640 1 prior testimony that I saw Maggie Williams in 2 an office, a Whitewater damage control 3 meeting in John Podesta's office. 4 Q Are you aware of any meeting that 5 Maggie Williams had in Mr. Foster's office 6 where the subject of that meeting was the 7 Travel Office? 8 A I don't know. I don't know. As I 9 sit here right now, I'm not certain that she 10 was one of the attendees at one of the 11 meetings. My -- I believe she was at one of 12 the meetings, but I don't, I can't tell you 13 for sure which one and I can't tell you for 14 sure how long she was there. It was just an 15 impression I had. 16 Q But if you had had a clear 17 recollection of it in 1995, you would have 18 probably said so in response to those 19 questions? 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 21 calls for speculation. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what 641 1 question you're referring to. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q The ones that you were asked in 4 that deposition? 5 A Which questions specifically? 6 Q You were asked in that deposition 7 whether you had any knowledge? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: What deposition are 9 you talking about? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, if the 11 witness has a problem with my questions or 12 counsel has a problem with my questions -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: I object, it's vague 14 and ambiguous. 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't you let me 16 get my question out before you make an 17 objection. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: You did get it out, 19 Mr. Gaffney. 20 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 21 Q You were asked -- 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague and 642 1 ambiguous. 2 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 3 Q You were asked, do you have any 4 understanding as to the types of matters that 5 Mr. Foster was working on with Ms. Williams 6 and you said I have no firsthand knowledge. 7 A Uh-huh. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: What page are you 9 on, I'm sorry? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: 3568. 11 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 12 Q He asked do you have second-hand 13 knowledge, you said not really, I never asked 14 questions. 15 So if you had recalled at that time 16 that she had attended a meeting about the 17 Travel Office, you probably would have said 18 so; isn't that fair to say? 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading, 20 calls for speculation. 21 THE WITNESS: You know, what this 22 was referring to, and I'm sorry if I answered 643 1 probably too narrowly on this particular 2 occasion, however, these questions had to do 3 with the -- as I understood them, questions 4 about Maggie's back and forth and movement of 5 files and her movements as it pertained to 6 Mr. Foster, specifically in the aftermath of 7 his death, prior to and in the aftermath of 8 his death. 9 So, in this particular sequence of 10 questions, I don't know that if I had, in the 11 back of my mind, remembered Maggie on behalf 12 of Mrs. Clinton being at a Travel Office 13 meeting, that that's one that I would have 14 contributed to at that point. 15 I think we were talking here, and 16 again, I feel I'm at a slight disadvantage 17 not having a chance to review almost 18 three-year old testimony, but I do believe we 19 were talking about Maggie's movements as it 20 pertained to Mr. Foster, specifically. 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q You testified on the 14th about two 644 1 conversations that you overheard between 2 Marcia Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Do you recall that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q I want to talk about the first one. 7 When did this occur? 8 A I testified I'm not sure. I 9 testified I know where the first one 10 occurred. 11 Q That's what I'm saying, the first 12 one, it occurred? 13 A In the old EOB. 14 Q Where were you working at the time? 15 A I don't know for sure. My sense is 16 that I was still working in the West Wing 17 Counsel's Office. 18 Q Do you recall what you were doing 19 at the OEOB at the time? 20 A I have no idea. I think it's fair 21 to say I was in the old OEOB probably every 22 single day that I worked at the White House, 645 1 as you're probably aware, so I don't know 2 that I would remember. 3 Q How close were you in proximity to 4 Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 5 A Oh, God. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, vague as 7 to time. 8 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 9 Q Again, I'm referring to this -- 10 A Close enough to overhear, and I 11 think I testified that I was attempting to 12 hear. 13 Q You testified that Mr. Kennedy had 14 files in his hand; is that correct? 15 A On that particular occasion. 16 Q Right. Did you see any names on 17 these files? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you look in these files? 20 A Did I look in them? No. 21 Q These files I gather had a 22 commonality with the file you saw on 646 1 Mr. Foster's desk that said Dale on it; is 2 that correct? 3 A Well, what I've testified to is 4 that the files that I have come to believe 5 were FBI files had a commonality to them. 6 The files that Mr. Kennedy had in 7 his arms that day I believed at the time, I 8 still believe, today, were those types of 9 files. That's only my belief. 10 Q Tell me everything you can that you 11 recall about the conversation that occurred 12 between Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy? 13 A My recollection was at the time 14 that I saw them that Marcia was giving 15 instruction to Mr. Kennedy about the 16 inputting of data. I remember the words 17 database, I remember DNC. 18 It was as though she was 19 instructing him, and actually the second 20 conversation was much the same. I don't know 21 that the second conversation included the 22 words DNC, but I do remember it being much 647 1 the same, except a hand gesture and the 2 reference to the First Lady. 3 Q What did she say to Mr. Kennedy 4 that leads you to believe it was an 5 instruction of some sort? 6 A Again, it's been too long for me to 7 be specifically in any way a verbatim 8 explanation. 9 My impression overhearing what I 10 did was that this was an instruction having 11 to do with entering data in to a database 12 from files that included a sharing of data 13 with the DNC, White House and the DNC. My 14 further impression was that she, somehow, was 15 in charge of it. It seemed a bit askew to 16 me. 17 Q Have you told me everything you 18 recall about this conversation? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Sitting here today, have you told 21 me everything that you -- 22 A I don't know, I just don't know. I 648 1 mean I don't know. I'd have to sit here and 2 think about it and I don't know. 3 Q I ask you to sit here and think 4 about it and take as much time as you need. 5 A I don't know. At the moment I 6 think I may have, I may not have. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't we take 8 a break for a second. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: No, I don't want to 10 take a break. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I do. Let's 12 take a break for a second. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, I'd ask that 14 Mr. Zaccagnini not to confer with his witness 15 with this question pending. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I'm going to 17 take a break with my client. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record 19 at 3:27 p.m.) 20 (Recess) 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On the record 22 at 3:42 p.m. 649 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Gaffney, I'm 2 sorry, before you go ask your question, and I 3 won't hold this time against you, I want to 4 do something, I want to put something on the 5 record and I want to clarify something which 6 will probably allow you, put you in a 7 position where you're going to want to ask 8 more questions. 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Hold on, what are we 10 doing here? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to put a 12 statement on the record, in this proceeding, 13 okay? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Okay. 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You had asked 16 Ms. Tripp some questions earlier, I think 17 your first set of questions in this 18 deposition about the location and the 19 existence of a book proposal. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Correct. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I've just had a 22 conversation with Ms. Tripp about that book 650 1 proposal. I want you to know that I did not 2 have any conversation with her about your 3 pending question. 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I've advised 6 Ms. Tripp that she may be, that, in fact, she 7 is in possession of the book proposal, to the 8 best of my knowledge, and that is because a 9 week ago, less than a week ago she asked me 10 to turn over to her certain documents which I 11 had obtained from Jim Moody, which it was my 12 understanding that Jim Moody had obtained 13 from Mr. Kirby Bear. 14 It's a redwell full of documents 15 and I couldn't recount for you the entire 16 contents of everything that's in that 17 redwell, and it's substantial, it's about six 18 inches thick, and contained in that document, 19 basically my review of that redwell, is the 20 book proposal. 21 I believe that I looked at the book 22 proposal before I responded to Mr. Klayman's 651 1 request for production of documents. It's my 2 recollection, and I'll be glad to revisit 3 this and provide you this, if I'm mistaken, 4 that there wasn't any mention about Filegate 5 in that book proposal. 6 Ms. Tripp thinks otherwise. If I'm 7 mistaken, then I made the mistake and I will 8 be glad to turn a copy of that over to you if 9 I believe it to be responsive to -- I'll turn 10 it over to Mr. Klayman and to everybody else 11 if it is responsive to the document request. 12 Therefore, if there is an error, 13 it's an error that I made and not Ms. Tripp 14 because Ms. Tripp was not in possession of 15 the book proposal when we went through all of 16 her files to look at, for documents 17 responsive to the request. 18 That document was contained in my 19 personal safe and I'm almost sure that I did 20 look at it before I responded to the request, 21 because I have a recollection of going 22 through the redwell before I responded to the 652 1 document request, but I will revisit that and 2 advise all the parties as to whether or not I 3 believe that document is responsive to the 4 request. 5 Having said that, you may want to 6 ask Ms. Tripp some questions. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I would ask 8 Mr. Zaccagnini if you can look through all of 9 the documents and see if there's anything 10 that's responsive to the request in there. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, I'm 12 sorry, go ahead -- 13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's broader than 14 just the use of the word Filegate as we 15 defined it in the subpoena. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right, I 17 understand that and I don't have a complete 18 recollection of having looked at the book 19 proposal, but I may have, and it would be 20 inconsistent with my recollection to think 21 that I did not, but I'll have to go back and 22 look at it again. 653 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Fine. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: What time do we have 3 now? 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 3:45. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I would add just 6 one last thing, Mrs. Tripp has not had an 7 opportunity to go through the materials in 8 the redwell, so she's probably, I am sure 9 that she's unaware that she's in possession 10 of it. 11 THE WITNESS: I am now. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q Ms. Tripp, your attorney just made 14 a representation about the book proposal we 15 discussed earlier. 16 I would just join in with what 17 Mr. Klayman said that the subpoena he served 18 on you is broader than simply requesting 19 documents that refer to Filegate and I will 20 accept your attorney's representation that 21 the book proposal will be reviewed very 22 consistently with the request for production. 654 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I didn't mean to 2 intentionally limit it to Filegate. I 3 recognize anything, documents related to 4 Government files and I want you to understand 5 that I will certainly make it available to 6 all the parties if, in fact, I find it 7 responsive to the subpoena. If not, you know 8 that it exists, you can do a motion to 9 compel. 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Also, like I said, 11 the subpoena is much broader. I think it's 12 probably inconceivable that the book proposal 13 is not called for in some respect and is 14 certainly relevant to this matter, so we'd 15 ask that you produce it and -- 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, I don't want 17 to get into a battle with you. Let me make 18 that determination and if it is, it is and if 19 it isn't, it isn't and you know it exists, 20 I'm not hiding the fact that it exists. 21 You can always move to compel and 22 then we can go that route. But let me take a 655 1 look at it and then we'll resolve it that 2 way. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 4 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 5 Q Ms. Tripp, I'd like to discuss the 6 second Marcia Scott, Bill Kennedy 7 conversation that you've testified to on 8 the 14th. 9 I believe you said this discussion 10 occurred in the West Wing; is that correct? 11 A That's correct. 12 Q Tell me everything you can recall 13 about what Ms. Scott and Mr. Kennedy said 14 back and forth to one another. 15 A The conversation was taking place, 16 to the best of my recollection, in the 17 hallway right adjacent to Mrs. Clinton's 18 office and to the Counsel's Office West Wing 19 second floor. 20 Again, it was -- Marcia seemed to 21 be instructing Mr. Kennedy. I don't have an 22 independent recollection about the DNC words. 656 1 I have an independent recollection of Marcia 2 Scott almost ordering Mr. Kennedy to do 3 something having to do with database and 4 pointing to and referencing she wants it 5 done, or words to that effect. 6 Q Can you recall anything else at 7 this time about that conversation? 8 A I think I've told you what I recall 9 at this time. 10 Q Okay, thank you. At your 11 deposition on the 14th, Mr. Klayman showed 12 you a copy of a New York Post article, I 13 think he marked it as Exhibit 6. I've got an 14 extra copy of that, but if you have the 15 original exhibit, I'd appreciate you showing 16 it to the witness. 17 Now this article was published 18 around the time of your Grand Jury testimony 19 this summer; is that correct? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q I believe it talks about you 22 spending more than seven hours before the 657 1 Grand Jury yesterday. 2 A Well, then I guess so. 3 Q Now, you testified in your 4 deposition on the 14th with respect to the 5 discussion of FBI files that the article was 6 inaccurate in certain respects; do you recall 7 that? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I think what I 10 said was that it was in Lucianne Goldberg's 11 very individual manner of speaking. 12 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 13 Q So it's not inaccurate in certain 14 respects? 15 A Well, I think that that's how I 16 testified, that it was Lucianne Goldberg's 17 manner of speaking and interpretation. 18 If you'd like to ask me specific 19 questions about what she said and how I would 20 answer it, I'm happy to do that, or we can 21 review my prior testimony. I think I used 22 the word peculiar. 658 1 Q Why don't we look at your prior 2 testimony. 3 A Where is that? 4 Q Why don't we turn to page 139. 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me just ask, 6 let's take a break because we want to make a 7 copy of it. We don't have -- 8 MR. GAFFNEY: I have extra copies. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, thank you. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Do you see your testimony there on 12 page 139? 13 A I do, uh-huh. 14 Q So certain, let me phrase it this 15 way, Ms. Goldberg did not provide the New 16 York Post with an accurate recitation of what 17 you told her; is that correct? 18 A Well I don't know what 19 Ms. Goldberg provided the New York Post, at 20 all. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, leading. 22 THE WITNESS: You asked me, I 659 1 believe, that -- it was Ms. Shapiro who asked 2 me about hand trucks of FBI files. 3 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 4 Q It was actually Mr. Klayman who 5 asked these questions. 6 A My response to that I believe was, 7 well, we can read the record, but I don't 8 know what a hand truck is. 9 Q You were not there when they came 10 in with hand trucks of FBI files or at least 11 you never told Ms. Goldberg that; is that 12 correct? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Compound, leading. 14 Assumes facts not testified to. 15 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 16 Q Is it correct that you never told 17 Ms. Goldberg that you were there when they 18 came in with hand trucks of FBI files? 19 A It's correct to say that that is 20 apparently Lucianne Goldberg's interpretation 21 of what I told her. 22 Q It's not an accurate 660 1 interpretation; isn't that what you testified 2 to? 3 A Hand trucks would be inaccurate. 4 Loading or unloading meaning from a hand 5 truck would be inaccurate. 6 Q Then there was something about 7 encrypted? 8 A Right. 9 Q You said that was not an accurate 10 recitation of what you told Ms. Goldberg? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, asked and 12 answered, the testimony speaks for itself. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, please 14 don't interrupt my questions and make 15 objections. You're obviously perfectly 16 entitled to make objections once I'm 17 finished. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: All right, well let 19 me -- 20 MR. GAFFNEY: But, please, let me 21 finish the question before you make the 22 objection. 661 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine, I just 2 want to make it clear to the witness as well 3 as to you that I may object and while I don't 4 represent the witness, I would ask that maybe 5 there be a little hesitation to allow me to 6 object. 7 MR. GAFFNEY: I have no problem 8 whatsoever with that. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Now the bit about the screen 12 flashing up encrypted, Mr. Klayman asked you, 13 again this is on page 139, is that an 14 accurate recitation of what you told Lucianne 15 Goldberg and you responded no. 16 A No, it's not. Let me just clarify, 17 it's not that, it appears to be a compilation 18 of two different issues confused in the 19 recitation. 20 The word encrypted, if I used it at 21 all, did not have to do with FBI files. It 22 had to do with another issue on Deb Gorham's 662 1 machine when it was located in the West Wing 2 prior to its being moved. 3 What I had told Lucianne Goldberg 4 at the time was that it had been alarming to 5 me that when I tried to enter data from a 6 caller that I was working with on a tainted 7 blood issue, that every time I entered a word 8 that had to do with this particular issue, it 9 would flash up either the word encrypted or 10 password required or something to indicate 11 the file was locked. Had nothing to do with 12 FBI files. 13 Q So Ms. Goldberg got it a little bit 14 wrong; is that fair to say? 15 A As I said, it appears that she's 16 confused at least two issues. 17 Q Did you asks Lucianne Goldberg to 18 call the Post back and have them correct the 19 misimpression the article gave? 20 A You must be joking. 21 Q Did you do anything to correct the 22 false impression that this article -- 663 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to 2 relevance. Don't even answer the question. 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Excuse me, is that an 4 instruction not to answer on the basis of 5 relevance? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I think that's a 7 ridiculous question. 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Your objection is 9 noted and your instruction is noted. 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q Are you going to follow your 12 attorney's instruction not to answer that 13 question? 14 A I'm sorry, could you repeat the 15 question. 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Could you repeat the 17 question. 18 (The reporter read the record as 19 requested.) 20 THE WITNESS: That this article? 21 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 22 Q Conveyed? 664 1 A Well, I'm still confused as to why 2 you think this is one article I should have 3 corrected when I have read so very few 4 articles about me since January of '98 that 5 are accurate. 6 Q You testified on the 5th that you 7 saw -- 8 A On the 5th? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: 5th of what? 10 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 11 Q I'm sorry, you testified on the 5th 12 of January regarding seeing what possibly 13 could have looked like Rose law firm files in 14 the safe of Mr. Foster? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection, 16 mischaracterizes testimony. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, could you 18 repeat, forgive me. 19 BY MR. GAFFNEY: 20 Q With regard to the materials that 21 you saw in Mr. Foster's safe that you think 22 could have been Rose law firm files; do you 665 1 recall that testimony? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. The 3 testimony speaks for itself. G