1
	1	        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
	2
		---------------------------x
	3	CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER		:
		et al.,					:
	4						:
Plaintiffs, :
	5						:
				v.		: Civil No. 96-2163 (RCL)
	6						:
		FEDERAL BUREAU OF		:

	7	INVESTIGATION et al.,		:
							:
	8				Defendants. : Volume 1
		---------------------------x
	9
								Washington, D.C. 10
						Monday, December 14, 1998 11
12	Deposition of
13				LINDA R. TRIPP
14	a witness, called for examination by counsel
15	for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and
16	agreement of counsel, beginning at
17	approximately 10:23 a.m. at the law offices
18	of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street
19	Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Joan V.

20	Cain, notary public in and for the District
21	of Columbia, when were present on behalf of
22	the respective parties:


				2
	1    APPEARANCES:
	2       On behalf of Plaintiffs:
	3	LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
		PAUL ORFANEDES, ESQUIRE
	4	DEBORAH BERLINER, ESQUIRE

		Judicial Watch
	5	501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725
Washington, D.C.  20024
	6	(888) JWETHIC
7       On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Executive

	8		Office of the President:
	9	ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
		JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE
10	Federal Programs Branch

		Civil Division
11	901 E Street Northwest, Room 988
		Washington, D.C.  20530

12	(202) 514-5302
13	PHILIP D. BARTZ, ESQUIRE
		Office of the Deputy Assistant 
14	Attorney General for Federal Programs
		United States Department of Justice
15	Ninth & Pennsylvania Avenues Northwest
Washington, D.C.  20530
16	(202) 514-5421
17       On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation:
18
		JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE
19	Office of General Counsel
		Federal Bureau of Investigation
20	935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest
		Washington, D.C.  20535

21	(202) 324-9665
22


				3
	1    APPEARANCES (CONT'D):
	2	On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton:
	3		PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE

Williams & Connolly
	4		725 Twelfth Street Northwest
			Washington, D.C.  20005

	5		(202) 434-5000
	6	On behalf of The White House:
	7		SALLY PAXTON, ESQUIRE
		Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8		The White House
			Washington, D.C.  20500
	9		(202) 456-5079
10	On behalf of Defendant Department of Defense:
11		ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE
			Federal Programs Branch
12		Civil Division
			United States Department of Justice
13		901 E Street Northwest, Room 1034
			Washington, D.C.  20530

14		(202) 514-3395
15		BRAD WIEGMANN, ESQUIRE
			Office of General Counsel 
16		United States Department of Defense
			1600 Defense Pentagon, Room 3C975 17		Washington, D.C.  20301

(703) 695-3392
18
		On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 19
			ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE
20		Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz
			51 West 52nd Street

21		New York, New York  10019-6618
(212) 403-1000
22


				4
	1    APPEARANCES (CONT'D):
2         On behalf of the Office of the Independent
			Counsel:
	3
JOSEPH M. DITKOFF, ESQUIRE
	4	STEPHEN BINHAK, ESQUIRE
		Office of Independent Counsel

	5	1001 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest,
			Suite 490 North

	6	Washington, D.C.  20004
(202) 514-8688
	7
	8       On behalf of Deponent:
	9	ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE
		ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE 10	Semmes Bowen & Semmes
		250 West Pratt Street
11	Baltimore, Maryland  21201
(410) 385-3935
12
13
14		      *  *  *  *  *
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22


						5
	1		     C O N T E N T S
	2	EXAMINATION BY:                            PAGE

	3	     Counsel for Plaintiffs	10
	4	TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
	5	No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments	11
	6	No. 2 - Renotice of Deposition	11
	7	No. 3 - Response to Plaintiffs'	12
			Request for Documents
	8
		No. 4 - Privilege Log	13
	9
		No. 5 - Letter, Landes to Zaccagnini,	14
10		Attachments
11	No. 6 - New York Post News Story            136
12	No. 7 - Defendant's Response to             206
			Request #3
13
		No. 8 - "JCS Privileged" List               277 14
15
16
				*  *  *  *  *
17
18
19
20
21
22


				6
	1		  P R O C E E D I N G S
	2		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Good morning.
	3	This is the video deposition of Linda R.
	4	Tripp taken by the counsel for the Plaintiffs

	5	in the matter of Cara Alexander et al. v. the 
	6	Federal Bureau of Investigation et al., held

	7	in the United States District Court for the
	8	District of Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held
	9	in the offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School
10	Street Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this
11	date, December 14, 1998, and at the time

12	indicated on the video screen, which is
13	10:23 a.m.
14		My name is Sylvanus Holley;  I'm
15	the videographer.  The court reporter today

16	is Joan Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting.
17		Will counsel now introduce
18	themselves?
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Anthony Zaccagnini
20	on behalf of Linda Tripp from Semmes Bowen &
21	Semmes in Baltimore.
22		MR. LARDIERI:  Anthony Lardieri,


				7
	1	also on behalf of Linda Tripp, also from
	2	Semmes Bowen & Semmes.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's redo that
	4	because he was panning to me at the time.
	5	Let's reintroduce ourselves.
	6		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Anthony Zaccagnini
	7	from Semmes Bowen & Semmes in Baltimore on
	8	behalf of Linda Tripp.
	9		MR. LARDIERI:  Anthony Lardieri

10	also from Semmes Bowen & Semmes in Baltimore
11	on behalf of Linda Tripp.
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  Elizabeth Shapiro

13	from the Department of Justice on behalf of
14	the Executive Office of the President and the
15	FBI.
16		MS. PAXTON:  Sally Paxton from The
17	White House.
18		MS. WEISMANN:  Anne Weismann from
19	the Department of Justice on behalf of the

20	Department of Defense.
21		MR. GAFFNEY:  Paul Gaffney,
22	Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First


				8
	1	Lady.
	2		MR. MAZUR:  Robert Mazur, Wachtell
	3	Lipton Rosen & Katz, representing Bernard
	4	Nussbuam.
	5		MR. KLAYMAN:  Larry Klayman,
	6	chairman and general counsel of Judicial
	7	Watch on behalf of Plaintiffs.
	8		MR. FITTON:  Tom Fitton, President
	9	of Judicial Watch.
10		MR. ORFANEDES:  Paul Orfanedes on
11	behalf of Judicial Watch.
12		MS. BERLINER:  Deborah Berliner on
13	behalf of Judicial Watch.
14		MR. BINHAK:  Stephen Binhak,
15	associate independent counsel on behalf of

16	the United States through the Independent
17	Counsel, Ken Starr.
18		MR. DITKOFF:  Joseph Ditkoff
19	associate independent counsel, Independent
20	Counsel's Office, by Kenneth Starr,
21	Independent Counsel.
22		MR. KLAYMAN:  If you can identify


				9
	1	the people along the back row there?
	2		MS. PETERSON:  Michelle Peterson
	3	from The White House.
	4		MR. WIEGMANN:  Brad Wiegmann,
	5	Department of Defense.
	6		MR. PIFER:  John Pifer, FBI General
	7	Counsel's Office.
	8		MR. GILLIGAN:  James Gilligan,
	9	Department of Justice.
10		MR. BARTZ:  Phil Bartz, Department
11	of Justice.
12		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Will the witness
13	please be sworn?
14	Whereupon,
15		     LINDA R. TRIPP
16	was called as a witness and, having been
17	first duly sworn, was examined and testified
18	as follows:
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman,
20	before we begin, I'd like to notify all the

21	counsel present that in the likely event that
22	this deposition were to go over one day's


					10
	1	duration the next available date in terms of

	2	Mrs. Tripp and her counsel would be Friday,
	3	the 18th, and I would propose that date in
	4	the event that we do have a carryover.
	5			MR. KLAYMAN:  Understood.

	6			EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	Ms. Tripp, would you please state
	9	your name?
10		A	My name is Linda R. Tripp.
11		Q	And when were you born?
12		A	November '49.
13		Q	And where was that?
14		A	Jersey City, New Jersey.
15		Q	Just run me through briefly what
16	your educational background is.
17		A	Twelve years of public schools in

18	Morris County, New Jersey, and follow on with
19	Kathryn Gibbs in Montclair, New Jersey.
20		Q	Did you receive a subpoena in this
21	lawsuit from the Plaintiffs sent to you by

22	Judicial Watch?


						11
	1		A	I did.
	2			MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm going to ask that
	3	the court mark as Exhibit 1 a copy of that
	4	subpoena and ask you to identify it.
	5				(Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 1

	6				was marked for identification.)
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	Is this a copy of the subpoena you
	9	were served with?
10		A	Yes, it is.
11		Q	And recently your counsel was sent
12	a renotice of deposition pursuant to this
13	subpoena.
14			MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll ask that that be
15	marked as Exhibit 2.
16				(Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 2
17				was marked for identification.)
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	Have you seen this document before?
20		A	I'd like a chance to review it just
21	briefly, if you don't mind.
22			Yes.


					12
	1		Q	This subpoena requires you to
	2	produce certain documents and things, and
	3	have you produced documents and things
	4	pursuant to the subpoena, which is Exhibit 1,
	5	as modified by the court's order, which is
	6	attached to Exhibit 2, which is the renotice
	7	of deposition?
	8		A	We have.
	9			MR. KLAYMAN:  And I'll show you

10	what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
11	Exhibit 3.
12			     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 3
13			     was marked for identification.)
14			MR. KLAYMAN:  Which is Linda R.

15	Tripp's response to Plaintiffs' request for
16	documents pursuant to subpoena.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18		Q	Is this a written copy of the
19	document response?
20		A	It is.
21			MR. KLAYMAN:  And along with that
22	document response was produced a privilege


				13
	1	log, which I'll ask be marked as Exhibit 4.
	2		     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 4

	3		     was marked for identification.)
	4		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5	     Q	Showing you Exhibit 4, are those
	6	documents which you have not produced subject
	7	to claim of privilege as listed on the
	8	privilege log?
	9		Is the answer yes?
10	     A	Yes, it is.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  Now, pursuant to an

12	agreement with your counsel, Mr. Zaccagnini,
13	the actual privilege documents have been sent
14	to the Court for review in camera.  Is that
15	correct, Mr. Zaccagnini?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That is correct,
17	Mr. Klayman.
18		MR. KLAYMAN:  Thank you.
19		MR. KLAYMAN:  And I'll show you

20	what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
21	Exhibit 5.  We'll call it composite Exhibit
22	5.  It consists of the documents which you


					14
	1	produced today.
	2			     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 5

	3			     was marked for identification.)
	4			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5		Q	Showing you Exhibit 5, the first

	6	document produced as part of this composite
	7	exhibit is a letter from the Inspector-
	8	General to Anthony Zaccagnini on August 4,
	9	1998, consisting of two pages signed by

10	Shirley J. Landes, chief; is that correct?
11		A	Yes, that's correct.
12		Q	The second document is a letter
13	from Semmes Bowen & Semmes of July 10, 1998,
14	to the Inspector-General, care of Leonard

15	Trahan Junior, from Anthony Zaccagnini; is
16	that correct?
17		A	That's correct.
18		Q	The third document attached as part
19	of composite Exhibit 5 is a letter of March
20	19, 1998, also stamped March 23, 1998,

21	presumably a date of receipt, from the
22	Inspector-General to Anthony Zaccagnini


					15
	1	signed by Leonard Trahan Junior which

	2	contains certain attachments; is that
	3	correct?
	4			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I don't believe
	5	there are any attachments to that letter.
	6			MR. KLAYMAN:  Those are not
	7	attachments.  That's a separate document.
	8			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

	9		Q	So there's one page.  You've seen
10	that letter that you've produced here today?
11		A	A letter with a FOIA sheet attached
12	to it, yes.
13		Q	The second page is a FOIA sheet.
14	Following that are photographs, two
15	photographs.  Is that of Clifford Bernath?
16		A	Yes, it is.
17		Q	Next is one photograph with
18	Clifford Bernath with a microphone, that's
19	the next document?

20		A	It is.
21		Q	And then there appears to be a
22	biography of Clifford Bernath, principal


					16
	1	deputy assistant secretary, Defense Public
	2	Affairs?
	3		A	That's correct.
	4		Q	And then a letter to Strom Thurmond

	5	consisting of ten pages of text and one page
	6	of an organogram styled "Office of the
	7	Assistant to the Secretary of Defense, Public
	8	Affairs"; is that correct that?
	9		A	I didn't count the pages.  It ends
10	with answer 26 and a follow-on paragraph
11	signed by Ken Bacon, yes.
12		Q	Plus an organogram at the end?
13		A	Exactly.
14		Q	The next document which you
15	produced is a handwritten notation, "Linda,
16	just thought you might find this of
17	interest," with an attachment, which appears
18	to be a listing of various individuals who

19	have met an unfortunate end --
20		A	That's correct.
21		Q	During the Clinton Administration.
22	Who sent that little note to you, "just


					17
	1	thought you'd find this of interest"?
	2		A	That was the second such piece of
	3	information in that form that I received from
	4	Monica Lewinsky.
	5		Q	This is Monica Lewinsky's
	6	handwriting?
	7		A	It does not appear to be Monica
	8	Lewinsky's handwriting.
	9		Q	Do you know whose handwriting it
10	is?
11		A	I don't.  It was given to me,
12	however, by Monica Lewinsky.
13			MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Zaccagnini, is

14	this something you want to get into under
15	seal later?
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, I would
17	prefer that all that be handled under seal.
18	If you want to portion off that deposition
19	separately towards the end, I think that

20	would be advisable.
21			MR. KLAYMAN:  I can identify on the
22	record, however, who likely sent it.


					18
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	You say that Monica Lewinsky handed
	3	this to you?
	4		A	No, actually, she didn't hand it to

	5	me.  She left it as she had the -- either its
	6	predecessor or its successor, depending on
	7	the timing, which I'm unclear of as of this
	8	date, left it on my chair early a.m. prior to
	9	my arrival at my office.
10		Q	When was that, approximately?
11		A	There were two, as I've said.  One
12	was in late summer and one was in the fall
13	time frame.
14		Q	Of this year?
15		A	Prior to October of '97.
16		Q	Just to be absolutely sure, you
17	don't know whose handwriting this is?
18		A	I'm sorry.  I don't.
19		Q	What happened to the other document
20	that was left on your chair?
21		A	I don't know.  I don't know that I
22	even took it home from the Pentagon.


					19
	1		Q	Did it also contain information on
	2	people that had died in and around the
	3	Clinton Administration?
	4		A	Yeah, but it was a lengthier
	5	document.  I don't know that it had more
	6	names.  I've never counted the names, but it

	7	had other addendum, perhaps more explanation
	8	of each and every case.
	9		Q	Did you ever ask Ms. Lewinsky who
10	had provided the document?
11		A	I never asked her directly who
12	provided the document.
13		Q	Did you ask her indirectly?
14		A	Yes.
15		Q	And what did she tell you?  Well,
16	how did you ask her indirectly?
17		A	It came up in conversation when we
18	discussed the documents both times, and both
19	times it was in a conversation trying to

20	affect the outcome of a decision I had to
21	make about testifying truthfully or not in
22	the case of Kathleen Willey.


					20
	1		Q	Maybe I misunderstood, but what I'm
	2	trying to understand is how would that be

	3	indirect?  It seems that you're having a
	4	direct conversation with Ms. Lewinsky.
	5		A	I did have a direct conversation,
	6	but I did not ask her directly this doesn't
	7	look like your handwriting, who wrote it.
	8	And immediately it was instantly familiar to
	9	me as not being Ms. Lewinsky's handwriting.
10		Q	Do you know where the second
11	document is today?

12		A	I don't.  In fact, I have searched,
13	as you can well imagine.  As a matter of

14	fact, I didn't come across either one in
15	preparation for my grand jury testimony,
16	which I very much would have liked to have
17	come across, and only came across this one
18	recently.  I had thought that along with
19	other what I considered to be important

20	papers I thought that my attorney had custody
21	of all, and we have reviewed both home files
22	and files maintained in the custody of my


					21
	1	attorney, and we have not regrettably found
	2	it.
	3			MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Zaccagnini, if
	4	you'll permit me to ask this?  If you want to

	5	go on a different record, that would be fine.
	6	I'm going to save more of the detailed
	7	testimony to the end in terms of threats to
	8	make it easier.  But if I can ask this one
	9	question:
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11		Q	Did you take the providing of this
12	document, which we've just identified, as a
13	threat?
14		A	I did.
15		Q	And who did you take it as a threat
16	from?
17			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At this point,
18	Mr. Klayman I would ask that we move to --
19			MR. KLAYMAN:  Confidential?
20			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, thank you.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22		Q	Now, you are aware that in terms of


						22
	1	Plaintiffs' request that they've asked for
	2	not just traditional documents but any types
	3	of recordations of information.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At this point,

	5	Mr. Klayman, as indicated in our privilege
	6	log, we've asserted privilege to any such
	7	response to that request, and I would

	8	instruct my client neither to acknowledge the
	9	existence of any such items or comment on the
10	existence of any such items.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  Which designation is
12	that where you're asserting a privilege?
13		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I believe it's
14	number 6 and 20, if I'm not mistaken.
15		MR. KLAYMAN:  6(b)?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's correct.
17		MR. KLAYMAN:  So 6(b) would subsume
18	any tape recordings or diskettes or anything
19	of that nature?
20		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, and it's

21	similarly raised in response to requests
22	numbers 8, 19, and 20.  Anticipating the


					23
	1	scope of those questions was broader than

	2	what I'd hoped it would be and as broad as
	3	you would hope it would be, I'm raising the

	4	same privilege as to those inquiries as well.
	5			MR. KLAYMAN:  You are aware that
	6	Judge Lamberth has modified the scope of our
	7	documents request?
	8			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's correct.
	9			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10		Q	Ms. Tripp, when I refer to
11	Filegate, do you know what I'm talking about?
12		A	Yes, I do.
13		Q	What do you understand Filegate to
14	be?
15		A	I understand it to be the possible
16	illegal obtaining of the confidential FBI
17	files of individuals -- in my understanding,
18	it was individuals from the Bush White House
19	and other Republican individuals whose files
20	found their way to The White House.
21		Q	Bush and Reagan White House?
22		A	Yes.


					24
	1		Q	Is there any reference, either
	2	direct or indirect, in any documents or tape
	3	recordings or diskettes or any type of
	4	recordation which you have not produced today
	5	to Filegate?
	6		A	No, I don't believe any.
	7		Q	Did you ever discuss Filegate with
	8	Monica Lewinsky?
	9		A	Briefly.
10		Q	What was discussed?
11		A	In the late fall we discussed
12	briefly my personal framework of reference

13	having to do with issues, shall we say, that
14	I had witnessed or been exposed to during my
15	tenure at The White House.  Filegate had
16	proven to be one.
17			Needless to say, at the time I did
18	not -- I did not understand it to be Filegate
19	during my time at The White House.  It was
20	only subsequent to my departure that it

21	became known to me and helped me identify
22	what it was I had seen.


					25
	1		Q	When you say "late fall," of what
	2	year?
	3		A	'97.
	4		Q	And did this conversation take

	5	place in person or did it take place by
	6	telephone or what means?
	7		A	I really don't recall.  Most likely
	8	in person.  The vast majority of my
	9	conversations with Monica Lewinsky were in
10	person.
11		Q	And how did the issue come up?

12	Perhaps you've just described that but --
13		A	I thought I had, yeah.
14		Q	And what did you tell Ms. Lewinsky
15	about what you observed at The White House?
16		A	I told her about what I considered
17	to be unscrupulous behavior, that there

18	seemed to be no moral absolutes, and that
19	there was no sense of right or wrong, and I
20	cited Filegate as one of those instances,
21	among others.
22		Q	Did you cite any things that you


					26
	1	had observed relating to Filegate when you
	2	discussed the matter with Ms. Lewinsky?
	3		A	I don't recall to what degree of
	4	specificity I got into the conversation with

	5	Monica.  I think it was more to make a point.
	6	Filegate was one among other issues that I
	7	addressed with her during that conversation.
	8		Q	You told her that you had witnessed
	9	certain events which related to Filegate, in
10	retrospect?
11		A	I referenced the issue of Filegate
12	and said that I felt that I had personal
13	knowledge of that issue and that I believed
14	it to have been a violation.
15		Q	Did you tell her what personal
16	knowledge you had?
17		A	No.
18		Q	Have you ever relayed to anyone
19	what personal knowledge you had of Filegate?
20			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Other than
21	counsel, Mr. Klayman?
22			BY MR. KLAYMAN:


					27
	1		Q	Other than counsel and perhaps you

	2	don't want to assert the privilege on that.
	3		A	In terms of an in-depth
	4	conversation or any dialogue at all, again
	5	with specificity that would be counsel.  I

	6	discussed Filegate with Tony Snow a long time
	7	ago and in the early summer of 1996 with
	8	Lucianne Goldberg when I endeavored to write
	9	a book to expose several of the scandals that
10	I had witnessed during my time at The White
11	House and in an attempt to validate Gary
12	Aldrich's book when it was published, so it
13	was just at that time that I approached
14	Lucianne Goldberg or she approached me and we
15	discussed Filegate among many other things.
16		Q	Let's back up to Monica Lewinsky.
17	Has there ever been a communication between
18	you and Monica Lewinsky where anyone recorded
19	an issue related to Filegate in writing or in
20	any kind of recordation like tape recordings?
21		A	No.
22		Q	So this was just an oral


					28
	1	conversation, never any notations made or any
	2	recordation?
	3		A	No.  No.  I have never kept --
	4	well, I shouldn't say I have never.  I had
	5	not at that time kept notes of any kind, and
	6	that had been a conscious decision also
	7	during my tenure at The White House.
	8		Q	When was it that you discussed
	9	Filegate with Tony Snow?
10		A	Prior to the nomenclature being

11	accepted as a conventional title for the
12	issue, I had discussed it with Tony Snow.
13		Q	Was it prior to it even becoming
14	known that there was a controversy called
15	Filegate?
16		A	Precisely.
17		Q	When was that conversation,
18	approximately?
19		A	I can't give you any detailed

20	memory of the time frame.  I believe I
21	discussed some of my observations with Tony
22	Snow during the time that I was still on


					29
	1	White House staff, in confidence, and he has
	2	never betrayed that confidence.
	3		Q	So that would be prior to the time
	4	you left The White House?
	5		A	Oh, yes.
	6		Q	And when was it you left The White
	7	House?
	8		A	August '94.
	9		Q	Does that help refresh your
10	recollection as to when you had this
11	conversation with Tony?
12		A	No, because I had many -- Tony Snow
13	is a friend of mine, and we had many
14	conversations both about The White House and
15	about many other topics, and I just don't

16	remember when this conversation would have
17	taken place.  I can tell you that it had to
18	have been after May of '93 and before August
19	of '94.
20		Q	How is it you're able to pinpoint
21	it to those dates?
22		A	Because through April of '93 I was


					30
	1	working in the immediate office of the
	2	President with Bruce Lindsey, Nancy Hernreich
	3	and the President, and so I would not have
	4	been exposed at that time to this issue.
	5	However, when I made the move to the
	6	counsel's office at the request of Vince
	7	Foster and Bernie Nussbuam, it was thereafter
	8	that I became familiar with this issue.
	9			So I'm dating my possibility of
10	this conversation having taken place from the

11	earliest possible date would have been in May
12	of '94 and the last date while still employed
13	at The White House would have been August of
14	'94 and conceivably well after that when I
15	was at the Pentagon.
16		Q	And when you discussed this with
17	Tony Snow, were you there in person with Tony
18	or was it by phone?
19		A	By phone, right.
20		Q	Who called who?  Was it you calling
21	him?
22		A	No, actually, Tony almost routinely


					31
	1	called me.  Sporadically, we kept in touch.
	2		Q	Because he's a good friend?
	3		A	He is a good friend, yes.
	4		Q	And how did the issue arise with
	5	regard to what you had observed concerning a

	6	controversy later becoming known as Filegate?
	7		A	Actually, it arose from another
	8	scandal.  In my mind, our conversations about
	9	this subject actually evolved from
10	conversations having to do with something
11	else.
12		Q	Something called Travelgate?
13		A	Yes.
14		Q	And how did it arise?  Tell us what
15	you told Tony at the time.
16		A	Well, it was not in any great
17	detail because, again, I did not get into any
18	great level of specificity with Tony.  It was
19	more my impression in a generic overview of
20	the types of concerns I had but not
21	specifics.
22		Q	And what did you tell Tony


				32
	1	generally about these concerns?
	2		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you could be
	3	more specific, Mr. Klayman.  Here's
	4	Ms. Tripp's concern.  The substance of that

	5	conversation dealt primarily with the Travel
	6	Office issue.  I think it would be somewhat

	7	beyond the scope of Judge Lamberth's order to
	8	have Ms. Tripp recount her conversations

	9	relating to Travelgate, as it's commonly
10	known, but I do think that a narrowly-
11	tailored question or a narrowly-tailored

12	answer could get you what you're looking for.
13		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14	     Q	And I'm asking what was discussed
15	with regard to the issue of FBI files or
16	government files, if anything?
17	     A	That files -- I had seen files that
18	were not what White House Office of White
19	House Personnel 201 or personnel files looked
20	like on certain individuals.
21	     Q	And did you tell Tony where you saw
22	those files?


					33
	1		A	I did.
	2		Q	And where did you see them?
	3		A	Several locations, traveling in by

	4	the hand of Bill Kennedy into Vince Foster's
	5	office prior to Vince Foster's death, not
	6	exiting that office with Mr. Kennedy when he
	7	left.
	8		Q	The files not exiting?
	9		A	Right.  Again, in Vince Foster's
10	safe, which was housed in Bernie Nussbuam's
11	office but which Bernie Nussbuam probably

12	never opened.  This safe was, as I said,
13	housed and co-existed with another small
14	safe, and I think Bernie Nussbuam probably
15	never opened it.

16			I know Vince Foster had it opened
17	routinely by his assistant virtually daily,
18	but this was not opened by -- Bernie didn't
19	use the safe.  So there and in Bill Kennedy's
20	office and in Craig Livingstone's office.

21		Q	When you told Tony this, were you
22	taking any notes?


					34
	1		A	No, I was not.
	2		Q	Was there any kind of recordation
	3	of the conversation?
	4		A	No, Mr. Klayman.  I made a
	5	conscious decision, a decision I regret

	6	today, not to keep notes or a diary or
	7	journal at all during my White House tenure.
	8	I felt at that time that my duty and loyalty
	9	was to the Presidency but also and as well to
10	the incumbent and felt that that would be a
11	disloyal thing to do, precisely during
12	Travelgate, during Waco, during RTC, during
13	Vince Foster's death and its aftermath, and
14	so, yes, I made a conscious decision not to
15	and so no, I have no notes of that time
16	period.
17		Q	Did you describe anything else to
18	Mr. Snow when you had this discussion with

19	him, other than what you just described?
20		A	First of all, it was several

21	discussions over a period of many months and,
22	again, sporadically.  It wasn't a -- it


					35
	1	wasn't weekly.  It probably wasn't even
	2	monthly, but it was often enough so that we

	3	stayed in touch, and he was well aware of my
	4	concerns early on, and I'm sorry I didn't get
	5	that second part of your --
	6		Q	Was there anything else that was
	7	discussed?
	8		A	Oh, definitely, yes.
	9		Q	In this area during those various
10	conversations?
11			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Limited to file-
12	related matters.
13			THE WITNESS:  No.  No.  I'm sorry.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	When you described these files that
16	were taken by Mr. Kennedy into Mr. Foster's
17	office that he did not come out with, the

18	same files being housed in Vince Foster's
19	safe which was kept in Bernie Nussbuam's

20	office, did you advise Tony Snow which files
21	they were?
22		A	No.


					36
	1		Q	How did you know what files they
	2	were?
	3		A	First of all, I didn't know at the

	4	time what they were until I saw one of them
	5	on Vince Foster's desk, but, no, I did not at
	6	any time relay to anyone the names of the
	7	files that I saw.
	8		Q	At the time that you saw these

	9	files being carried in by Mr. Kennedy did
10	this raise concerns with you at that time?
11		A	No, not until I saw the file.  The
12	individuals who attended the meeting caused
13	me some concern, yeah, so I was curious.

14		Q	Which individuals attended the
15	meeting?
16		A	Maggie Williams on behalf of the
17	First Lady as chief of staff to the First
18	Lady, as I said, Bill Kennedy, and Maggie

19	Williams was in and out of these meetings and
20	not an attendee who remained the entire time;
21	however, she was present during the
22	particular meeting I'm referencing right now


					37
	1	when Mr. Kennedy walked in with certain
	2	files.  Catherine Cornelius, Harry, the movie
	3	producer, Thomas something or other, David

	4	Watkins, and, of course, Vince Foster, and
	5	the meeting was held in Vince Foster's
	6	office.
	7		Q	What was it about the attendance of
	8	these various people that caused you concern?
	9		A	It was a bizarre compilation of
10	folks, number one, and I asked Deb Gorham
11	what the subject of the meeting was and she
12	told me.
13		Q	When did you ask Deb Gorham that?
14	Immediately after the meeting?
15		A	No, as they filed into the meeting.
16		Q	And who is Deborah Gorham?
17		A	She was Vince Foster's assistant at
18	the time.
19		Q	And what did Deborah Gorham tell
20	you about the meeting?
21		A	She didn't tell me.  She wrote down
22	"Travel Office."


					38
	1		Q	She wrote it down on a notepad?
	2		A	Yes.
	3		Q	And why is it she wrote it down
	4	rather than responding verbally, to the best
	5	of your knowledge?
	6		A	I don't know except that the Travel
	7	Office situation was treated very, very
	8	carefully and with great discretion.  It was
	9	very quiet.
10		Q	And it was your impression that she

11	didn't want to say verbally because this was
12	a hush-hush matter?  Was that your
13	impression?
14		A	I was standing by her desk when I
15	asked the question, and she wrote it down, so
16	apparently so.
17		Q	And was her desk located in close
18	proximity to the office where the meeting was
19	held?
20		A	All of our desks were.  Bernie's
21	office was directly adjacent to Vince
22	Foster's and then Bernie's secretary, Betsy


					39
	1	Pond, and Deb Gorham, Vince's assistant, were
	2	opposite one another.  My desk was behind
	3	them, and we had a staff assistant for
	4	correspondence whose desk was in the rear of
	5	the office.
	6		Q	And this meeting took place in
	7	Vince Foster's office?
	8		A	It did.  It was one of many.
	9		Q	Most meetings on this issue took
10	place in Vince Foster's office?
11		A	Well, let me just say that the

12	meetings of which I was aware having to do
13	with the Travel Office took place in Vince
14	Foster's office and Vince Foster seldom left
15	to go to meetings outside our office if they
16	were held in the Old EOB and involved other
17	members of the counsel staff.
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  We object to the
19	scope of the inquiry going into the Travel
20	Office for the record per the judge's order.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22		Q	Was there anything else that


					40
	1	Ms. Gorham told you about the meeting?
	2		A	Again, Travel Office -- can I --
	3		Q	Is that all she wrote down?
	4		A	No.
	5			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Anything other
	6	than Travel Office?
	7			THE WITNESS:  Well, yeah, we had
	8	conversations but it's about the Travel
	9	Office.
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Then I would
11	caution the witness not to respond to that

12	part of the inquiry because I believe it's
13	beyond the scope of the judge's order.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	Let me do a voir dire to see if we
16	can focus it a bit more narrowly here.  It's
17	quite clear that the issue of files is
18	involved.  Did Ms. Gorham mention anything to
19	you about files that were being taken into
20	that office?
21		A	She didn't use the word "files."
22		Q	What word did she use?


					41
	1		A	Later, after a subsequent meeting,

	2	she said -- she referenced a file I had seen
	3	on Vince Foster's desk the day of the meeting
	4	I just spoke of.
	5		Q	You had mentioned to her that you
	6	had seen a file on Vince Foster's desk?
	7		A	That's right.
	8		Q	Did you see that file the same day
	9	of the meeting?

10		A	I did.
11		Q	How did it occur that you got to
12	see the file that was on Vince Foster's desk

13	the day of the meeting you've just described?
14		A	Deb Gorham was showing me two
15	photos in Vince Foster's office.  One was of
16	-- if I recall correctly, Mr. Foster and his
17	wife on a boat, and the other -- I believe it
18	was at that time that she showed me the photo
19	of the President and Vince Foster in
20	Ms. Mary's kindergarten class in Little Rock
21	or Hope, Arkansas, somewhere.
22		Q	Who's Ms. Mary?


					42
	1		A	I'm assuming it was his teacher.
	2	I'm not sure.  That was how she described it

	3	to me.  And it was at that time the meeting
	4	had just ended, what appeared to be what
	5	Mr. Kennedy had brought in and not left with
	6	was still on Mr. Foster's desk, and I can
	7	only tell you what my observations were, and
	8	they looked to be the same -- the same that
	9	Mr. Kennedy had had in his hand, and I did
10	see one name, and I only saw a last name.  I
11	didn't see a first name.
12		Q	What name did you see?
13		A	Dale.
14		Q	D-a-l-e?
15		A	That's correct.

16		Q	Did you take that file to relate to
17	Billy Dale?
18		A	I did.
19		Q	And what did the file look like?

20		A	It did not look like a White House
21	personnel file of which I am familiar and
22	which has a commonality to all other


					43
	1	personnel files that The White House
	2	maintains in its White House Office of
	3	Personnel as opposed to Presidential
	4	personnel.
	5		Q	What was the color of the file?
	6		A	I don't recall.  I can tell you the
	7	only recollection I have at this point in
	8	time about color at all was that Mr. Kennedy
	9	was carrying a red well -- is that what

10	they're called? -- in one arm and loose on
11	the other and the red well wasn't closed and
12	there were files in there, and the files that
13	were in the red well, the folders had the
14	same color as the ones he was carrying, and
15	that's all I remember.
16		Q	Have you ever seen information that
17	came from the FBI to The White House?
18		A	You mean an open file?  Yes, but I
19	didn't know at the time that's what I was

20	seeing.  I didn't know the day that I'm
21	telling you I saw the Dale file and I guess
22	one could argue that I still don't know what


					44
	1	it was.  I can tell you what it wasn't.
	2		Q	What wasn't it?
	3		A	It was not the 201 or whatever the

	4	nomenclature is for a personnel file at The
	5	White House, and my best sense is that it was
	6	not the files that Craig Livingstone
	7	legitimately maintained in his office for
	8	security clearance purposes.  That was
	9	completely different.
10		Q	For internal White House security
11	purposes?
12		A	Yeah.  The security background
13	questionnaire forms that are extensive, and
14	those had a different look to them than this.
15		Q	Which are filled out by The White
16	House?
17		A	Well, yes, exactly.  They're filled
18	out by The White House and the contents by
19	White House staff and others.
20		Q	Now, did you subsequently see after
21	that event that day, when you noticed a file
22	concerning Mr. Dale on Mr. Foster's desk,


					45
	1	files that had come over from the FBI to The
	2	White House?
	3		A	I don't know what I saw.  I can
	4	tell you what --
	5		Q	I'm sorry.  I don't mean at that
	6	time, but did you later see, later --
	7		A	Those same files?
	8		Q	Files that came over from the FBI
	9	as part of FBI --
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm sorry to
11	interrupt you.  If I may try to help clarify
12	this matter, I'm not sure Mrs. Tripp can
13	identify the origin of these files and maybe

14	that's what causing some confusion; is that
15	correct?
16			THE WITNESS:  That's correct.

17			MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't want to
18	presume that until I have the opportunity to
19	ask the questions, Mr. Zaccagnini.
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	What I'm trying to ask you is that
22	those files, the way they appeared when you


					46
	1	saw that Billy Dale file on Foster's desk,

	2	did it look similar to files that you saw
	3	later on, when you worked in The White House
	4	Counsel's Office?
	5		A	Oh, I'm sorry.  I understand your
	6	question now.  Actually, let me just correct
	7	one thing.  I don't know that it was Billy
	8	Dale's file.  I don't know that with any

	9	degree of certainty.  I can tell you that was
10	my assumption and I'm fairly confident it was
11	an accurate assumption based on the timing

12	and subsequent events; however, yes, I did
13	see other similar files in great number in
14	other locations within The White House, yes.

15		Q	And did you subsequently learn that
16	those other similar files were files obtained
17	from the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
18		A	I was told so, yes.
19		Q	So the appearance of the Dale file
20	that you saw on Foster's desk looked like
21	files you later saw in The White House
22	Counsel's Office from the FBI?


					47
	1		A	Except that I had no firsthand
	2	knowledge they were from the FBI.  I was told
	3	they were FBI files by an individual in the
	4	Counsel's Office, and those were files that I
	5	had seen in Bill Kennedy's office.
	6		Q	These files you saw later that
	7	looked like the Dale file you saw on Foster's
	8	desk?
	9		A	Exactly, and subsequently in Vince
10	Foster's safe.
11		Q	Who told you that the files you saw
12	later in Bill Kennedy's office were FBI
13	files?
14		A	Betsy Pond, who had since been
15	reassigned to Bill Kennedy as Deb Gorham had

16	prior to her departure from The White House.
17		Q	Now, when you had these series of
18	discussions with Mr. Snow, did he offer an
19	opinion as to what you saw on Vince Foster's
20	desk?
21		A	I didn't tell him what I saw on

22	Vince Foster's desk.  I told him about my


					48
	1	concerns.  I never identified files for Tony.

	2		Q	And specifically what concerns did
	3	you tell him about?
	4		A	I was concerned about guilt
	5	feelings I had, and these were significant to
	6	me, that I had prior knowledge -- that I had
	7	prior knowledge about the impending firing of
	8	the Travel Office and didn't warn the people
	9	over there, so I discussed that with Tony at
10	great length.
11		Q	Did there come a point in time when
12	you discussed with Tony an impression that
13	these files that you had seen, this file that
14	you had seen in Foster's office labeled
15	"Dale," was an FBI file?
16		A	Again, not with any -- I mean only
17	that I had seen files which led me to believe
18	that there had been an effort to, at the

19	highest levels, in my opinion, to remove
20	Billy Dale and his staff members.  I didn't
21	tell him I had seen Billy Dale's file and I
22	to this day don't know that I did, as I've


					49
	1	previously said.
	2		Q	But at some point you had told Tony
	3	Snow that you believed you saw FBI files
	4	of --
	5		A	Oh, yes, absolutely.  I still
	6	believe I did.
	7		Q	And that you believe that that file

	8	you saw on Foster's desk was an FBI file with
	9	Billy Dale?
10		A	I do believe that, yes.
11		Q	And you told Tony that?
12		A	I did -- no, excuse me.  That I saw
13	files on Vince Foster's desk and in his safe.
14	I did not identify the name.
15		Q	And that you saw what you

16	subsequently believed were FBI files?
17		A	Correct.
18		Q	And when did you tell Tony that?
19		A	Following the Travel Office mass
20	firing but I can't be any more specific than
21	that.
22		Q	Did Tony advise you to take any


					50
	1	action, having seen these files?
	2		A	Repeatedly.
	3		Q	What did he advise you to do?
	4		A	To write a book.
	5		Q	Did he advise you to go to any
	6	authorities?
	7		A	No.  He kept saying -- remember,

	8	Filegate, as it has since become known, was
	9	not a word that any of us knew.  I didn't
10	know at that time that if The White House did
11	in fact have FBI files that that would have
12	been an egregious decision on their part to
13	obtain them.  These were things that I just
14	found of concern to me because as a
15	careerist, as someone who was an apolitical
16	staff member, I found it somewhat
17	threatening.
18			My personal framework of reference
19	in the Clinton White House was not a positive
20	one when it came to the fate of White House
21	permanent staff who had been there in excess
22	of 20-plus years and were just unceremonious-


					51
	1	ly told to leave that day.  So I had concerns

	2	that didn't necessarily have to do with legal
	3	concerns.  These were concerns that were of a
	4	personal nature as opposed to a righteous
	5	legal.
	6		Q	Now, you say attending that meeting
	7	that you described previously with Mr. Foster
	8	was a Catherine Cornelius?
	9		A	Correct.
10		Q	Who was Catherine Cornelius in
11	terms of her position?
12		A	Catherine Cornelius at that time

13	was working in David Watkins' office in the
14	basement of the White House, and I had come
15	to know both she and Clarissa Cerda rather
16	well during their time in that office,
17	actually, from the first week, I believe, of
18	the first administration, and I'm trying to

19	think -- I actually had heard about -- excuse
20	me one moment.
21			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
22			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Could you repeat


					52
	1	the question again, Mr. Klayman?
	2			MR. KLAYMAN:  Who did she
	3	understand Catherine Cornelius to be?
	4			THE WITNESS:  Catherine Cornelius

	5	told me she was a cousin of the President.
	6			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7		Q	And what was her title at The White
	8	House at the time?
	9		A	I don't know her title.  I think at
10	the time there were no titles.  This was
11	early on.  She had a desk in David Watkins'
12	outer office and told me that she was working
13	on a joint project with Clarissa Cerda at

14	that at the direction of David Watkins in
15	that office.
16		Q	And do you know what the joint
17	project was?
18		A	I do.
19		Q	What was it?
20		A	The proposed firing of the Travel
21	Office and the reorganization of that Travel
22	Office once they had been removed with


				53
	1	Catherine Cornelius heading that office and

	2	an organization from Arkansas World comes to
	3	mind to take over the function of the Travel
	4	Office.
	5		MS. SHAPIRO:  I'd just register an
	6	objection to further inquiry into the firing
	7	of Travel Office personnel, which is not at
	8	issue in this deposition.
	9		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10	     Q	And David Watkins, what did you
11	understand his position to be at the time of
12	that meeting?
13	     A	I didn't know what any of their
14	positions at the time of that meeting were.
15	I only know that it was described to me as a
16	Travel Office meeting, and when I reflected
17	upon the extensive conversations I had had
18	with both Clarissa Cerda and Catherine

19	Cornelius over the preceding couple of
20	months, I was able to pretty much piece

21	together what I anticipated was happening,
22	and it proved to be true.


				54
	1	     Q	Did you subsequently come to know
	2	what David Watkins' position and job
	3	responsibilities were at the time of the
	4	meeting?
	5	     A	Oh, excuse me.  I thought you were

	6	asking a different question.  I was aware of
	7	what his title and job responsibilities were
	8	at the time of the meeting.  I was a little
	9	fuzzy on why he would have been at a Travel
10	Office meeting until I pieced together in my
11	mind what I had been told earlier.
12	     Q	What were they at the time of the
13	meeting?
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  What were
15	Mr. Watkins' job title and responsibilities?
16		MR. KLAYMAN:  Right.
17		THE WITNESS:  I don't remember
18	right now.  Director of administration,
19	maybe, or White House something or other.  I
20	don't know.  It was sort of an operations

21	manager, as I understood it.  He had a far
22	more dignified title.


					55
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	And you later became aware that he
	3	had involvement in the Travel Office?
	4			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
	5			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	6		Q	Just for identification.
	7		A	Yes.
	8		Q	How did you become aware of that?
	9			MS. SHAPIRO:  Same objection.
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

11		Q	You can respond.
12		A	Again through several sources,
13	Catherine Cornelius, Clarissa Cerda, Deb
14	Gorham, and personal observations.

15		Q	And also attending that meeting you
16	stated was a Hollywood producer?
17		A	Yes.
18		Q	Harry Thomasson?
19		A	Yes.
20		Q	Was his wife there, Susan
21	Bloodworth-Thomas?
22		A	I did not see her, no, she did not


					56
	1	come to that meeting.
	2		Q	You recognized him as a Hollywood
	3	producer at the time?
	4		A	I didn't, actually.  I had no idea

	5	who he was.  He was sporting a residence blue
	6	pass and he was introduced to me as a
	7	Hollywood producer.  That seemed to be part
	8	of his name.
	9		Q	Did he come in with a director's
10	chair or hat or anything like that?
11		A	Shades.
12		Q	Have you ever seen him without
13	shades?
14		A	I don't remember.
15		Q	When did you become aware that he
16	was a Hollywood producer?
17		A	Actually, that day, the day and the
18	time when we were introduced, and I later

19	learn that he maintained an office in the
20	residence or at least the use of a desk in
21	the residence and also camped out frequently
22	in the -- I'm sorry, I can't recall the name


					57
	1	of David Watkins' office in the basement of

	2	the West Wing, but I do know that they told
	3	me that he routinely set up there and used a
	4	phone there.
	5		Q	Who told you that he was a
	6	Hollywood producer later in the day or how
	7	did you learn specifically?
	8		A	I don't recall if I was introduced
	9	to him as he went into the meeting or coming
10	out.  It was during that time frame that I
11	was introduced to him; however, I was told
12	the same day that he was a Hollywood
13	producer, the same day that I met him, which
14	was the day of that meeting.
15		Q	You don't remember who told you
16	that?
17		A	It might have been Deb Coyle.  I
18	don't know.  I don't remember.

19		Q	Who was Deb Coyle?
20		A	Her official title was personal
21	secretary to the President as opposed to

22	executive secretary to the President, which


					58
	1	at that time was Betty Curry's title, but for

	2	all intents and purposes Deb worked primarily
	3	for Bruce Lindsey.
	4		Q	And then, of course, there was
	5	Vince Foster in the meeting.  You knew who he
	6	was at that time?
	7		A	Yes, I did.
	8		Q	And when did that meeting take
	9	place, approximately?
10		A	A very short time prior to the
11	Travel Office being fired.
12		Q	When you saw this file labeled
13	"Dale" on Mr. Foster's desk, did you see any
14	other files?
15		A	There were other files, and the red
16	well was still next to them with a couple of
17	files still in it.
18		Q	About how many files did you see?
19		A	Maybe four or five.  I don't know.
20	There were, like, two -- there was more than
21	one next to the Dale file.  I did not see the
22	name because the Dale file obliterated the


					59
	1	part where a name could be seen.  And then
	2	several in the red well still.
	3		Q	And --
	4		A	Vince Foster, let me just state,
	5	kept an extremely neat, uncluttered desk, so
	6	-- and Deb Gorham was fastidious about
	7	maintaining it that way, so there were not

	8	many file folders just strewn about, just
	9	these.
10		Q	It was Vince Foster's practice to
11	only have on his desk that which he was
12	working on?
13		A	Always.  It very much impressed me
14	because I'm so much the opposite.
15		Q	Did you ever discuss that with
16	Mr. Foster?
17		A	Often.
18		Q	His neatness?
19		A	Often.
20		Q	Did he tell you that was something
21	he learned at the Rose Law Firm, to be neat
22	and organized?


					60
	1		A	He said that he had always been

	2	neat and organized and found it to be the
	3	only way that he could function profession-
	4	ally.  He did not work well in a cluttered
	5	environment.
	6		Q	Mr. Foster was a litigation
	7	attorney, was he not?
	8		A	I believe so but I'm sorry.  I'm
	9	really not familiar with his law practice
10	during his years at the Rose Law Firm.
11		Q	I was just wondering whether he

12	told you that the organization was necessary
13	for a litigation lawyer to function?
14			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
15	Relevancy.
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You may answer.
17			THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  I'm sorry.  I
18	really don't recall any -- I don't think we
19	sort of got into an in-depth conversation
20	about the matter, but he marveled at the way
21	I operated and I marveled at the way he
22	operated.


					61
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	These other files that you saw, the
	3	four or five others, were of similar
	4	appearance?
	5		A	Yes.
	6		Q	In terms of their folders?
	7		A	Yes.
	8		Q	And in terms of the red wells that
	9	they were contained in?
10		A	I saw one red well.  There was a
11	commonality to all of them, and I to this day

12	cannot tell you what color they were.  They
13	weren't checkered or polka-dotted as I
14	recall.  They were a solid color, as I
15	recall.
16		Q	Now, you said you later saw files
17	coming to you from the FBI which looked

18	similar to the files you saw in Foster's
19	office?
20		A	Right.
21		Q	And when did you see those other
22	files, the later files that looked similar to


					62
	1	the files in Foster's office the day of this
	2	particular meeting?
	3		A	Well, actually, I saw that very
	4	file again.
	5		Q	Oh, when did you see that other
	6	file again?
	7		A	I can't give you a specific date.

	8	It was certainly following the date that I
	9	saw it in Vince Foster's office and I saw it
10	subsequently in Vince Foster's safe in Bernie
11	Nussbuam's office with Deborah Gorham.
12		Q	How did you come upon that file in
13	Vince Foster's safe in Bernie Nussbuam's
14	office?
15		A	As I've stated previously, I don't
16	recall Bernie Nussbuam ever using that safe.
17	I had occasion -- I had the combination, Deb
18	Gorham had the combination, and Betsy Pond
19	had the combination.  Bernie had the
20	combination, and it's my opinion that he most
21	likely would have died if it meant life or

22	death to get into the safe depending on his


				63
	1	ability to get into the safe.  He could not

	2	have done it.  Deborah, however, was quick
	3	and got into it immediately.  I was always

	4	hindered by the fact that it was unlike other
	5	safes that I had used in the Department of
	6	Army, so I never could get it right, so I
	7	used to call Anthony Marceca to come open it
	8	for me.
	9	     Q	Good choice.
10	     A	I thought so at the time; however,
11	this particular day Bernie had received
12	something from the National Security Council,
13	and I'm sorry I don't remember what it was,
14	and it needed to be prior to the end of the
15	day -- I'm going blank.  What do you call it?
16	Locked in the safe.
17		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Secured?
18		THE WITNESS:  Yes, secured, needed
19	to be secured.  And while this was generally
20	not something that seemed to concern people
21	one way or another in the Clinton White

22	House, this particular document Bernie


					64
	1	preferred that we lock up.  So I couldn't

	2	open the safe.  Deborah Gorham hadn't come
	3	back into the office.  I called Tony Marceca.
	4	He was not able to come over.  Deborah came
	5	back.
	6			We together went in, she opened the
	7	safe, I tried to find a place to put Bernie's
	8	National Security folder, and there was not a
	9	lot of room because all these other files

10	were in there.  Knowing that Bernie didn't
11	use it routinely, I was trying to find the
12	logical place to put it, and that's when I
13	saw the Dale file.

14		Q	Well, maybe I missed it, but why is
15	it you wanted to get into the safe?
16		A	To secure the National Security
17	Council document.
18		Q	I see.  It wasn't to get this
19	particular file, the Dale file?
20		A	It was not to retrieve at all.  It
21	was to secure a document, thing.
22		Q	Did Anthony Marceca know the


					65
	1	combination of this safe?
	2		A	He did.
	3		Q	How were the combinations provided

	4	to people such that they would know them on
	5	this safe?
	6			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you know.
	7			THE WITNESS:  I do know.  I don't
	8	know from whence the combinations came.  I do
	9	know that we were given the combination by

10	the folks in Craig Livingstone's office, and
11	we committed it to memory except Betsy Pond,
12	who wrote it down and wrote the words "safe
13	combination" and taped it to the inside
14	drawer of her desk, so so much for secure
15	safes.
16		Q	Why is it that Vince Foster's safe
17	was kept in Bernie Nussbuam's office?
18		A	Well, I can only speculate.  I can
19	be quite certain it's because of space
20	constraints.  Vince Foster had a tiny little
21	office with barely enough room to seat --
22	well, he certainly couldn't seat your quorum


					66
	1	here today.  I mean, tiny, and Bernie
	2	Nussbuam had a spacious office with plenty of

	3	room and I believe safes that had been there.
	4		Q	Was Nussbuam's office located
	5	adjacent to Vince Foster's office?
	6		A	Yes.
	7		Q	Right next to each other?
	8		A	Exactly.
	9		Q	Now, when you got into that safe,
10	who was it that actually opened the safe?
11		A	Deborah Gorham.
12		Q	And who was there when it was
13	opened?
14		A	Deborah Gorham and myself.
15		Q	And did Deborah Gorham observe
16	everything that you observed?
17		A	I believe so.
18		Q	And what did you observe?  What was
19	in that safe besides this National Security
20	information?
21		A	Let me also state that Deborah
22	Gorham maintained that safe.  She maintained


					67
	1	those files for Vince Foster, so she was

	2	completely familiar with the files in the
	3	safe.  So, as I was going through it looking
	4	for a place for Bernie's file, she was going
	5	through it to sort of section off a portion
	6	of the safe, and she was -- seemed to be
	7	familiar with the files that were in there.
	8	This is mine, this is mine, this is mine.
	9		Q	When she said "mine," what did you
10	take that to mean?
11		A	Files belonging to Vince Foster.
12		Q	Because she was Vince Foster's

13	secretary?
14		A	Yes.
15		Q	At the time you were Bernie
16	Nussbuam's secretary?
17		A	No.
18		Q	What were you at the time?
19		A	Betsy Pond was Bernie's secretary.
20	I was his executive assistant.
21		Q	What was the difference between the
22	two job functions?


					68
	1		A	Well, they were completely
	2	different.
	3		Q	At that time?
	4		A	Yes.  Yes.  I was hired and
	5	interviewed by Vince Foster, Bernie Nussbuam,
	6	and Steve Neuwirth and actually asked
	7	repeatedly to take a position they were going

	8	to create in the Counsel's Office, that they
	9	had two secretaries, one to serve as an
10	executive secretary to each of the
11	principals, but the need for someone with
12	overall White House experience who could act
13	as press liaison, senior staff liaison, and
14	actually someone to oversee the outside
15	office, and I accepted that position, also
16	handled a great deal of the correspondence in
17	terms of writing for Bernie, routine
18	correspondence not of a legal nature.
19		Q	And Ms. Pond was a traditional
20	secretary, generally?
21		A	Yeah, she essentially maintained
22	his correspondence files, was responsible for


					69
	1	the extensive telephone log and his schedule

	2	of daily appointments and I believe his White
	3	House checking account.
	4		Q	At the time of this opening of the
	5	safe, you were highly regarded in that office
	6	based upon statements made to you, correct,
	7	for your work?
	8		A	Revisionist history seems to

	9	reflect otherwise but at the time, yes.
10		Q	That's what people were telling
11	you, that you were doing a good job?
12			MS. SHAPIRO:  Object to the form.

13			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You can answer the
14	question.
15			THE WITNESS:  Well, they promoted
16	me and were extremely complimentary, yes.

17	They continued to give me increasingly
18	sensitive positions and areas of
19	responsibility, so, yes, I believed I was
20	highly regarded there.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22		Q	We'll get into that in greater


				70
	1	depth later, but for right now what I'm
	2	trying to get at is why were you present at
	3	the opening of the safe dealing with the

	4	national security information contained
	5	therein?  What was it about your job function
	6	and responsibility?
	7	     A	Okay, Bernie had received a
	8	National Security Council packet which I
	9	believe he had reviewed and either had not
10	finished reviewing or wanted to retain.  For
11	whatever reason it needed to be secured.  It
12	would not have been anybody else in the outer
13	office's job to secure that.  It would have
14	been my responsibility to see to it that it
15	was and I did so.
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  May I interrupt
17	just one second to speak to my client?
18		(Witness conferred with counsel)
19		THE WITNESS:  And I was asked to do
20	so.
21		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22	     Q	Who asked you to do so?


					71
	1		A	Mr. Nussbuam.
	2		Q	Now, when you both opened that

	3	safe, and forgive me if I'm going back --
	4		A	Deborah Gorham opened the safe.

	5		Q	Excuse me.  Deborah Gorham opened
	6	the safe but you were present?

	7		A	Right, I was present.
	8		Q	And you both went through the
	9	contents of that safe correct?
10		A	Mm-hmm, in a very cursory way.  It
11	was more or less to find space.  It was a
12	little safe.
13		Q	Tell me everything that you
14	observed.
15		A	Files.  The only one that I
16	remember with any degree of specificity again
17	is the one which said "Dale" which was the
18	same file I had seen on Mr. Foster's desk
19	days prior.
20		Q	Were those other four or five files
21	that looked like the Dale file you saw on
22	Foster's desk also in this safe?


					72
	1		A	They appeared to have that
	2	commonality that the others had but I can't
	3	say because I didn't see names.  I didn't
	4	look for names.
	5		Q	But it struck you it was the same
	6	grouping of files you had seen the day of
	7	that meeting in Foster's office?

	8		A	It struck me so, yes.
	9		Q	Did you see anything else in that
10	safe?
11		A	Yeah, I did see other things in
12	that safe.  I just can't tell you whether it
13	was that day or not.  I'm sorry.  My degree
14	of recollection in terms of specifics is

15	somewhat fuzzy.  I did have access to that
16	safe on many other occasions and at those
17	times also saw files.
18		Q	On other occasions what files did
19	you see?
20		A	Bill Kennedy's file was housed in
21	that safe for an extended period of time.
22		Q	And when was that that you first


					73
	1	noticed Bill Kennedy's file?
	2		A	Later, but, I'm sorry, I can't date
	3	the time frame.
	4		Q	Roughly speaking.  Months?  Years?
	5		A	Well, that year.  I'm sorry.  I

	6	just don't know.  I don't remember.  There
	7	was a lot going on in the Counsel's Office
	8	during that time frame.
	9		Q	And what year was that, again?
10		A	1993.

11		Q	And did Bill Kennedy's file look of
12	a similar composition to the Dale file you
13	saw?
14		A	It did not.
15		Q	It was a different type of file?
16		A	Yes.
17		Q	Did you identify it as a particular
18	type of file when you saw it or thereafter?
19		A	It looked to be a compilation of

20	several different types of files is the
21	best --
22		Q	And what compilation did it strike


				74
	1	you?
	2	     A	It looked like a file that -- well,

	3	actually it was relatively thick as compared
	4	to the others, very thick, and it looked like
	5	a combination security White House personnel
	6	and other, financial even.  It just looked

	7	like a very extensive personal file on Bill
	8	Kennedy.
	9	     Q	What other kinds of files did you
10	see in that particular safe in Bernie

11	Nussbuam's office, Mr. Foster's safe?
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  I'm just going to
13	caution the witness.
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If I can consult
15	with the witness.
16		MR. KLAYMAN:  Is Ms. Shapiro
17	representing Ms. Tripp?
18		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  No, not at all.  I
19	want to speak to Ms. Tripp about not
20	divulging any information that might be vital
21	to National Security with respect to the

22	contents of that safe.  I just want to get


					75
	1	from her if that's going to be her intended
	2	answer.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  Is Ms. Shapiro
	4	consulting with you?
	5		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Not at all.
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  Because we would
	7	object to that.
	8		MS. SHAPIRO:  You would object to

	9	me consulting with counsel for the witness?
10		MR. KLAYMAN:  With the witness.
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  I don't intend to
12	consult with the witness.

13		     (Witness conferred with counsel)
14		THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  Could you
15	just repeat the last portion?
16		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17	     Q	What other documents did you see in
18	that safe, documents or things?
19	     A	In I'm not mistaken, there was a

20	file having to do with Wachtell, Lipton in
21	New York.
22		MS. SHAPIRO:  We're going to have


					76
	1	to take a break because if there's
	2	information that's potentially privileged
	3	that she cannot divulge, then we would
	4	instruct her not to divulge that, but in
	5	order to resolve it I would like to consult
	6	with counsel for the witness to determine

	7	whether there is such information that we
	8	need to assert as privilege.
	9		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll work backwards
10	before you consult.
11		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  For the record --
12		THE WITNESS:  I need a break,
13	though.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm going to ask the
15	questions in a different way to exclude any
16	information that may be outside what I'm
17	looking for here which may lead to relevant
18	evidence.
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's fine.
20	Let's take a break.
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  And then we can get
22	into those other things later once I get


				77
	1	that.
	2		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Going off video
	3	record at 11:33.
	4		     (Recess)
	5		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
	6	video record at 11:46.
	7		MS. SHAPIRO:  I'd like to just say
	8	two things before we proceed.  I want to
	9	repeat what I told Mr. Zaccagnini during the
10	break, which is that, if there are files or
11	other things in the safe that pertain to
12	attorney-client matters or other privileged

13	matters, that we would instruct the witness
14	not to divulge those.  She's free to testify
15	with respect to any files in the safe that
16	looked to her or looked like the sort of

17	files that she's testified about.
18		The second thing is, as

19	Mr. Zaccagnini said at the outset of the
20	deposition, he's available on Friday and is
21	agreeable to producing Ms. Tripp on Friday
22	for cross-examination.  We would like to be


					78
	1	able to inform the court that because the
	2	witness has voluntarily agreed to appear we
	3	don't need to appear before the court
	4	tomorrow morning for a hearing, so we'd like
	5	to get the agreement to that so we can so

	6	advise the court unless you don't plan on
	7	going the full six hours.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's see what
	9	happens.  Obviously, we want to have

10	something to say at that hearing, too.
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  Just so that we know
12	for our purposes --
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  There may be other
14	reasons for the hearing.  For instance, I

15	don't want to get into a long discussion
16	here, but Ms. Tripp does have her own counsel
17	and your objections may or may not be

18	objections which her counsel wishes to
19	assert.
20		MS. SHAPIRO:  That's right.
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  There is obviously a
22	situation here with regard to the FBI file


					79
	1	matter that may give rise to certain issues

	2	that deal with whether your privileges are
	3	valid because the privilege can't shield any
	4	criminal conduct.  These are the kinds of
	5	things we may need to discuss with the court,
	6	so I'm just going to reserve on whether there
	7	will be no hearing.
	8		MS. SHAPIRO:  It's my understanding
	9	that Mr. Zaccagnini's not available tomorrow.
10		MR. KLAYMAN:  We don't need to
11	clutter the record right now.  Let's just
12	take it under advisement.
13		MS. SHAPIRO:  I'd like to just note
14	that we'd like to advise the court while it's
15	there today before the end of the day whether
16	we need to be there tomorrow.
17		MR. KLAYMAN:  Certainly.  I would
18	appreciate you're not instructing Ms. Tripp
19	on what she can and can't do.
20		MS. SHAPIRO:  She's free to ignore
21	the instruction, but we are entitled to
22	assert privileges that are our privileges to


				80
	1	assert.
	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not going to
	3	quibble with you, Ms. Shapiro.  You'll do so

	4	at the appropriate time and place.  We've had
	5	a number of instances here where counsel have
	6	jumped in and made certain statements that
	7	have affected testimonies.
	8		MS. SHAPIRO:  I haven't done
	9	anything other than say that, as I mentioned
10	to Mr. Zaccagnini, we will protect attorney-
11	client privilege and other legitimate
12	privileges.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  I appreciate the use
14	of the word "legitimate."
15		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16	     Q	Ms. Tripp, you previously testified
17	that you observed certain things in the safe.
18	Now, what other kinds of files did you see in
19	the safe other than the national security
20	information and other than this Dale file and
21	related files that you previously testified
22	to?


					81
	1			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  And at this point,
	2	Mr. Klayman, if I can, I would caution
	3	Ms. Tripp not to divulge any information
	4	related to matters outside the scope of this
	5	deposition, which I believe to be the
	6	Filegate matter.
	7			THE WITNESS:  In that regard and
	8	with those constraints, I will say that there

	9	were several files which appeared to be very
10	similar if not duplicative of the Dale file,
11	more than what I had seen in Mr. Foster's
12	office the day I saw the Dale file.
13		Q	About how many of those files did
14	you see?
15		A	Several more.

16		Q	Ten, twenty?
17		A	I'm sorry.  I can't quantify.
18	Maybe -- it was a good four or five inches,
19	perhaps, of file space.
20		Q	And how thick was the Dale file,
21	roughly speaking?
22		A	Not nearly as thick as


					82
	1	Mr. Kennedy's file at all, which was a
	2	different type of file.
	3		Q	If you had to put a size to it in
	4	inches, quarter of an inch, eighth of an
	5	inch?
	6		A	I'm very, very poor at measure-
	7	ments.
	8		Q	Just roughly speaking.
	9		A	Relatively thin.
10		Q	So when you say you saw four to six

11	inches worth of additional files that looked
12	similar to the Dale file, that would maybe
13	amount to somewhere between ten and twenty
14	additional files?
15		A	It's hard for me to --
16		Q	Just roughly.
17			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm not going to
18	let you speculate.  If you have a number in
19	mind, that's fine.
20			THE WITNESS:  I can't tell you.

21	Several.  I remember an impression of several
22	more that were more than what I had seen on


					83
	1	Mr. Foster's desk, but I'm sorry I just -- I

	2	can't tell you a number.  I just didn't think
	3	to count.
	4			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5		Q	Now, with regard to those files,
	6	did there come a point in time when you asked
	7	anybody about what this Dale file was about?
	8		A	Well, months later, when Betsy Pond
	9	had been -- I believe at that point Deb
10	Gorham had left The White House staff.  She
11	had ended her tenure at The White House as an
12	assistant to Bill Kennedy.  She left and
13	Betsy took on that position when she was
14	removed from the West Wing and again placed
15	in the same desk and position that Deb Gorham
16	had held for a short period, and it was on
17	one of my trips to Bill Kennedy's office that
18	Betsy Pond identified those files that I had
19	seen in Bill Kennedy's office as FBI files.
20		Q	And how did Deb Gorham identify the
21	files as FBI files?
22		A	I'm sorry.  If I said Deb Gorham, I


					84
	1	didn't mean that.  Betsy Pond.
	2		Q	Betsy Pond.  How did she identify
	3	them as FBI files?
	4		A	She said, "Those are FBI files."  I
	5	asked the question.
	6		Q	Why did you ask the question?
	7		A	Because there were so many and they
	8	never moved for a long time, stacks and
	9	stacks of files.
10		Q	So when you said Deb Gorham earlier
11	you meant Betsy Pond?
12		A	Well, what I meant to say -- if I
13	was unclear, let me restate.  Deb Gorham
14	who's Vince Foster's assistant, at one point
15	in time was removed from the West Wing
16	Counsel's Office to a desk and a position
17	outside Bill Kennedy's office.  She
18	subsequently left White House employ and
19	Betsy Pond was removed from West Wing counsel
20	and put in that same desk with the same
21	duties, and it was Betsy Pond who mentioned

22	the word "FBI files," and that was the first


				85
	1	time I had heard the files referred to in any
	2	way with the FBI.
	3	     Q	When she said "FBI files," did her
	4	voice have concern in it?  Did you take it
	5	that way?
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

	7		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You can answer.
	8		THE WITNESS:  Not -- I didn't --
	9	not concern, just sort of hush-hush, not

10	overly concerned one way or another and there
11	was no reason for me at that point in time to
12	read much into it, frankly.  I was confused,
13	but again it could very well have been
14	legitimate in my opinion at that time.  I
15	didn't know what the relative ease of files
16	back and forth between agencies was at that
17	time.
18		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19	     Q	Now, at the time that you worked in
20	The White House, did the issue of these files
21	ever arise again?  Was there ever discussion
22	of these particular files that Betsy Pond had


				86
	1	identified as FBI files?
	2	     A	Once with Bill Kennedy and Bill
	3	Kennedy and I --
	4	     Q	Before we get into Bill Kennedy,
	5	let me ask you did you ever have a discussion
	6	where you discussed these files with Betsy
	7	Pond after that initial identification of the
	8	files as FBI files?
	9	     A	Oh, only in regard to her
10	participation in inputting data from the
11	files into a computer, but it again was not a
12	covert conversation or a -- it was more or

13	less -- it's something we don't -- by her
14	demeanor and her voice and the way she spoke,
15	it was quite apparent to me that she -- this
16	was confidential, but it didn't seem illegal
17	at the time or anything.
18		I mean, I didn't get that sense.

19	And she never said she was inputting data
20	from the FBI files into her computer.  What
21	she was doing was continually inputting data
22	into the computer, and on a subsequent


					87
	1	conversation said "the files" when I asked
	2	her what she was doing.
	3		Q	When did you have that subsequent
	4	conversation, roughly speaking?
	5		A	I can't place a date.  It was --
	6	she moved -- I can tell you this.  Betsy Pond
	7	moved from The White House Counsel's Office

	8	in the West Wing sometime in December of '93
	9	or early January of '94, and so it had to

10	have followed that time period, and it was
11	prior to Bernie's resignation, which I
12	believe was in March of '94 which took effect
13	30 days later in April of '94, so it was
14	prior to that time.  So I can date it between
15	end of December, early January -- assume

16	early January '94 to March, in that time
17	frame.  I can't be more specific.
18		Q	And how did the issue arise?  What
19	occurred to cause you to ask the question

20	what are you inputting into your computer?
21		A	It wasn't even -- I was back and
22	forth to Bill Kennedy's office frequently.


				88
	1	Bill Kennedy was involved in or had been
	2	involved in the vetting process --
	3	     Q	Of appointments and holdovers?
	4	     A	Yeah.  Actually, my familiarity was
	5	new appointees, but it could very well have
	6	been holdovers.  I don't know.  And so in

	7	that regard often there would be something
	8	that had a note from Bernie or something back
	9	and forth that I would hand-carry over there
10	on other business and then stop in the
11	counsel's office.
12		Betsy and I would chat.  Our
13	relationship was somewhat strained because of
14	the circumstances of her removal from the
15	West Wing, so it was still cordial and
16	actually friendly but not very close.  But
17	she did not seem to have a problem with
18	saying what she was doing.  So, even though
19	she said it in a hushed voice, I didn't get
20	the sense that this was something of great

21	moment at all.
22	     Q	Who raised the issue, you or


					89
	1	Ms. Pond, about what she was doing at the
	2	time?
	3		A	Oh, I think she did, actually, in

	4	the beginning because she asked if I wanted
	5	to go have a cigarette break.  When she saw
	6	me she said, "I'm so sick to death of --
	7	that's all I do all day," blah blah, and she

	8	made this kind of motion with her hands which
	9	would be her forefingers up and down pecking
10	on the -- and I said, "Does he do a lot of
11	mail"?  And she said, "No, no, it's not.
12	It's the files."  And she pointed back, which
13	to me indicated a direct sort of reference to
14	our previous discussion.
15		Q	When she said "the files," she said
16	FBI files?
17		A	She had said "FBI files" prior to
18	that.  No, this day she said "the files."
19		Q	Did you subsequently confirm from
20	her that she was talking about FBI files that
21	she was putting into the computer?

22		A	I don't recall asking her


					90
	1	specifically.  My sense was that I had but I

	2	don't know that for this purpose I can be any
	3	more accurate than that.
	4		Q	You took it to mean FBI files?
	5		A	I did.
	6		Q	And why did you take it to mean FBI
	7	files?
	8		A	Because of our prior conversation
	9	and the way she motioned to the location of
10	those files.
11		Q	How did she motion, again?
12		A	Sort of "the files," you know, as
13	those I knew, and I did.
14		Q	And the use of the term "the files"
15	between you and Ms. Pond took on a meaning
16	"the FBI files" in the course of time?
17			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	You can respond.
20		A	Well, I thought so.
21		Q	That was the way that you
22	communicated about files that were FBI files,


					91
	1	generally referred to them as "the files"?
	2			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
	3			THE WITNESS:  On the few occasions
	4	that we referenced them at all, yes.
	5			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	6		Q	Such as the occasion when you
	7	discussed Billy Dale and related files, you
	8	called them the files?
	9		A	I don't recall ever discussing
10	Billy Dale.
11		Q	Excuse me, the Dale file.
12		A	I don't think I ever discussed with
13	Betsy Pond the Billy Dale file.
14		Q	What instance did you discuss files
15	that were FBI files where you referred to
16	them as "the files"?
17		A	Well, the conversation I just
18	relayed would be one such time.
19		Q	Where she identified them as being

20	FBI files and then called them "the files" in
21	the same conversation?
22		A	No, no, on a completely separate


					92
	1	day that preceded the day I'm speaking of

	2	right now, the input day as opposed to the
	3	day that she mentioned what those files were.
	4	Those are completely separate days.
	5		Q	Right.
	6		A	So the day when we addressed the
	7	issue of the stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's
	8	office she referred to them as FBI files.  On
	9	this subsequent day, where she was inputting
10	in her machine and bemoaned the fact that she
11	was flustered at having to do this, meaning
12	it's a lot of work and tedious, she referred
13	to them as "the files," which, as I stated,
14	in my opinion referenced our previous
15	conversation.
16		Q	And my subsequent question is did
17	it take on a way of referring to the FBI
18	files by calling them "the files"?
19			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection form.
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	Was that a common phraseology used
22	in the office with her?


					93
	1		A	Mr. Klayman, I really didn't pay
	2	all that much attention to how we referred to

	3	them because at the time I really didn't know
	4	or note the significance of what we were
	5	talking about.  So to give you any more level
	6	of detail than what I have I think would be
	7	reaching a bit.  I'm sorry.
	8		Q	When she said she was inputting the
	9	files on this day that you had the
10	discussion, did she have a stack of them on
11	her desk?
12		A	Yes.
13		Q	About how big was the stack?
14		A	Again, I can't give you a
15	measurement.  There was a good -- I would say
16	a good number of files there.
17		Q	About a foot worth?
18		A	Let me just state that Betsy Pond
19	operated in a cluttered environment much as I
20	did, so there were many, many things out on
21	her desk and area, but I did notice this,

22	again, commonality to the stack that she was


					94
	1	inputting which --
	2		Q	Commonality with what?
	3		A	With the ones that I had seen in
	4	the stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office, the ones

	5	I had seen on Mr. Foster's desk, the ones I
	6	had seen in Mr. Foster's safe in Bernie
	7	Nussbuam's office and --
	8		Q	Such as the Dale file?
	9		A	Such as the Dale file -- and ones I
10	had seen in Mr. Livingstone's office.
11		Q	And it was that commonality which
12	caused you to equate FBI with "those files"?
13		A	Yes, and by that time, as you can
14	well imagine, I was far more sensitized to

15	the danger of those files, although not
16	knowing how dangerous, because of what
17	subsequently happened with Mr. Dale.

18		Q	Why specifically were you more
19	sensitized to the danger of those files at
20	that time?
21		A	Because it was shortly thereafter
22	that they were unceremoniously removed from


			95
	1	The White House after many years of service,
	2	and they were all known to be professional

	3	decent, honorable people, and they were not
	4	treated that way.
	5	     Q    But what, if anything, caused you
	6	to relate the dismissal of the Travel Office
	7	with the files you had seen?
	8	     A    Well, as I stated earlier, the
	9	files went in with Mr. Kennedy and those
10	individuals I mentioned earlier for the
11	purpose of, as Deb Gorham relayed to me, a
12	Travel Office meeting.  So from my
13	perspective a meeting took place with people
14	who seemed to have an agenda one way or
15	another with the members of the Travel
16	Office, the Dale file was there, it remained
17	in the Counsel's Office, and then subsequent
18	events occurred that made me feel that this
19	was perhaps not a legitimately good thing to
20	have seen.
21	     Q    And that's what caused you to put,
22	in effect, two and two together?


					96
	1			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the
	2	form.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

	4		Q	You can respond.
	5			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you understand
	6	the question.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	You were able to put all the
	9	events --
10		A	It allowed me to draw my own
11	conclusions.
12		Q	That the FBI files were somehow
13	related to the Travel Office firings?
14		A	That was my feeling.
15		Q	Now, I take it that you saw these
16	FBI files on Ms. Pond's desk on more than one
17	day?
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the
19	form.
20			THE WITNESS:  I have no specific

21	recollection of how many times I saw Betsy
22	inputting data from these folders.  I have a


					97
	1	specific recollection of one particular time
	2	that stood out in my mind.  I can't be any
	3	more specific than that.
	4		Q	Not specific recollection but just

	5	recollection.  You saw on multiple occasions
	6	these files being inputted by Betsy Pond in
	7	her computer?
	8		A	I just don't know that I can say
	9	with any degree of accuracy that those other
10	times that I saw her at her computer she was
11	working on that same type of work.  I don't
12	know.
13		Q	Well, let me just ask you from a
14	different perspective that you believed that
15	she was working on inputting FBI files
16	continuously after she first told you what
17	she was doing?

18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the form
19	of the question.
20			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection.  Leading.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

22		Q	You can respond.


				98
	1		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Did you believe
	2	Mrs. Pond was working on FBI files other than

	3	the one occasion that you specifically recall
	4	that she was doing that?
	5		MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to the
	6	order of questioning.
	7		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8	     Q	You can respond.
	9	     A	Based on an explanation that Betsy
10	had provided to me on more than one occasion,
11	not identifying the files as FBI but just in
12	conversation on a cigarette break, for
13	instance, she would on more than one occasion
14	bemoan the fact that she was still entering
15	data into the computer, and she felt that was
16	beneath her.  She had had a very long career
17	as an executive secretary in prestigious law
18	firms.  She felt that she had been reduced to
19	nothing more than a data entry clerk.  So
20	that seemed to be bothersome to Betsy, and I
21	certainly understood that.
22	     Q	Now, you talked about one


				99
	1	particular instance.  Tell us about that,
	2	that sticks out in your mind after that first
	3	discussion that you had.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  She already has,
	5	Mr. Klayman.
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  Oh, that was the
	7	instance?
	8		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's correct.
	9		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10	     Q	Now, what kind of computer systems

11	or system did Betsy Pond have at her desk at
12	the time you became aware she was entering
13	information from files into it?
14	     A	I don't know what computer she was
15	using at that time.  I know that when Deb
16	Gorham left her computer from our office in
17	the West Wing, the secure office in a West
18	Wing, alarmed office, was removed against my

19	recommendation to the Old EOB and accompanied
20	Deb when she went to that same location.  It
21	could very well be that that was the same

22	computer.  I don't know.  I do know that a


					100
	1	computer that used to be in the counsel's

	2	office was moved to that location when Deb
	3	moved, and I believe the same computer was
	4	used by Betsy when she took that position.
	5		Q	Do you remember what kind of
	6	computer it was?
	7		A	No.
	8		Q	In terms of hardware?
	9		A	It was a PC, not a Mac, I think.
10		Q	A desktop?
11		A	Yes, it was a desktop -- well, I

12	mean, by that you mean a normal-size monitor
13	and -- yeah, it appeared to be.
14		Q	Did you ever discuss with Betsy

15	what software she was inputting these files
16	into?
17		A	I didn't.
18		Q	Did you ever come to know a
19	computer referred to as WHODB?
20		A	No.  Actually, I've only read press
21	accounts of that.  That was not a database
22	that I was familiar with at all.  I had heard


					101
	1	other names for other databases but not that
	2	one.
	3		Q	Did you become aware when you
	4	worked in the White House of certain
	5	databases that only certain people had access
	6	to?
	7		A	Yes.
	8		Q	What did you become aware of?
	9			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At this point,

10	Mr. Klayman, I'm going to object because I'm
11	not sure this is within the scope.  Can you
12	proffer to me the relevance?
13			MR. KLAYMAN:  We're just trying to
14	find out which database this was inputted
15	into.
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  The information
17	that Mrs. pond was inputting.  If you know.
18			THE WITNESS:  I don't know what

19	database she was inputting into.  I never
20	asked.
21		Q	Did you become aware, however, of
22	databases that certain people had limited


					102
	1	access to in The White House counsel's
	2	office?
	3	     A	And I have told you yes.
	4		MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Zaccagnini, this
	5	is an area that the court has allowed
	6	discovery into.
	7		MS. SHAPIRO:  I object to that
	8	characterization.
	9		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Is it subject to
10	litigation at this point in time?
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  Yes.

12		MR. KLAYMAN:  No.
13		MS. WEISMANN:  Well, this order is
14	what governs this deposition.
15		MR. KLAYMAN:  Can we have one
16	counsel speak for the government?
17		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, if
18	I'm understanding this correctly, it's your

19	belief that Mrs. Pond may have been inputting
20	data into a certain database; is that
21	correct?
22		MR. KLAYMAN:  I want to find out


				103
	1	what database and what databases does
	2	Ms. Tripp know of that exist in that office.

	3	Now, I'm not asking for the underlying name
	4	of that database, which may or may not be
	5	confidential.  I'm just asking which
	6	databases exist that she knew of.
	7		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Can I ask her a
	8	couple questions?  I'll ask them on the
	9	record so you'll understand where I'm going
10	because I'm not sure I want her to answer
11	that question because it may be privileged
12	material.
13		Did your knowledge of these
14	databases that you acknowledge existed come
15	from your employment within the counsel's

16	office, as a result of your employment within
17	the counsel's office?
18		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me object to this
19	right now.  If you want to consult with her,
20	that's fine.
21		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to step
22	outside with her for a second.


				104
	1		MR. KLAYMAN:  Just make a proffer
	2	when you get back.
	3		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  We'll go off the
	4	record.
	5		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
	6	video record at 12:12.

	7		     (Recess)
	8		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
	9	video record at 12:20.

10		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11	     Q	The question that was pending,
12	Ms. Tripp, was what types of databases during
13	the time that you worked in The White House
14	Counsel's Office were you aware of?
15		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At that point,
16	Mr. Klayman, I'm going to interpose an
17	objection, as it relates to the fact that I
18	don't believe that Linda Tripp's
19	acknowledgment or knowledge of databases is
20	within the scope of this deposition.

21		However, I will proffer that
22	Ms. Tripp has informed me that she was aware


			105
	1	of a database called People Base, and I don't

	2	see how it has any relevance to this inquiry
	3	at this point in time.
	4	          You have advised me that there is
	5	an order that you believe permits the scope
	6	of discovery, and I would ask that I be
	7	allowed to examine that.
	8	          MR. KLAYMAN:  Right.  We'll see if
	9	we can give that to you before lunch.  Maybe
10	that will even influence when we take lunch.
11	But the court has clearly allowed us to take
12	discovery on White House database systems,
13	and security systems and a whole variety of
14	systems that you may have read about that in
15	The Washington Times and elsewhere.  This is
16	something that we've gotten into and it's
17	relevant because we need to know what

18	database this information was being put on at
19	The White House.
20	          MS. SHAPIRO:  Let me say that

21	despite your proffer of relevancy this
22	deposition is specifically controlled by a


			106
	1	protective order which identifies the
	2	subjects which are relevant to the
	3	deposition.  This subject is not included in
	4	that, so we would object to getting into
	5	inquiry, since the witness has already
	6	testified that she didn't know the database
	7	that was at issue.
	8	          MR. KLAYMAN:  Don't feed her
	9	testimony.  We've been through this many
10	times, Ms. Shapiro.  I don't want to get into
11	kids' games with you over this.  You know

12	that this is relevant to this case, and you
13	know that the court order did not outline
14	every area which is subsumed within its

15	general parameters.  If you want to go over
16	to the court and argue that right now, I'd be
17	happy to, and I'll move for sanctions.  Do
18	you want to do that?
19	          MS. SHAPIRO:  I'm looking at the
20	face of the order, and I'm stating my
21	objection.
22	          MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's move on, then,


				107
	1	and certify this area.
	2		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
	3	instruct her not to answer that question,

	4	Mr. Klayman, with respect to what types of
	5	databases she has knowledge at this point in
	6	time.  I'd ask that you move on to your next
	7	area of inquiry.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  Will you revisit this
	9	after lunch?  I'll give you the order.
10		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Sure.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  If not, I'm going to
12	let the court know that we may have an
13	impasse we need to resolve.
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'd like to take a
15	look at the order, and then I'll advise you
16	as to whether or not I intend to revisit our
17	position on this.  If not, then I will be

18	glad to go to the court and have the judge
19	issue the order.
20		MR. KLAYMAN:  I just want to make
21	it clear that the U.S. Department of Justice
22	may or may not be stating things accurately.


					108
	1		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I understand.

	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  In my view, they
	3	don't represent the interests of Ms. Tripp.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'll make my own
	5	decisions independently.
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  I think I could say
	7	the same for you, Mr. Klayman.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  At least, not that
	9	aspect of the Department of Justice.
10		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11	     Q	Were there databases, without

12	identifying a particular database, that would
13	be able to take information from files that
14	you knew of in The White House counsel's
15	office?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'll object on the
17	same line, Mr. Klayman.  I think we're still
18	getting perilously overboard in terms of the
19	scope of this deposition.  I would ask that
20	you defer asking any questions relating to

21	database, at least until I get a chance to
22	look at that order, or at least until we get


					109
	1	a chance to visit the court.
	2			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	3		Q	Did Ms. Pond ever tell you what
	4	information from the files she was inputting
	5	into the computers?
	6		A	I don't recall substantively what
	7	she told me about that.  She made an
	8	explanation at that time, and I'm sorry; I
	9	don't recall specifically.
10		Q	Do you recall generally?
11		A	I don't.  I don't remember.  It was
12	in columns.  There were columns on the

13	particular screen at that time, and she
14	indicated that's what she was doing at the
15	time, inputting the data from the files, so
16	I'm assuming that the columns had some
17	significance, and again, that is an
18	assumption.  Be that as it may, it was an

19	assumption I made at that time.  I didn't get
20	the sense that it was an abbreviated entry of
21	data, simply by the screen that I saw that
22	day and her exasperation with the


					110
	1	time-consuming nature of her task.
	2		Q	Did she tell you what types of data
	3	she was inputting?  Did she ever tell you
	4	that?
	5		A	If she did, I don't recall it.  I'm
	6	sorry.
	7		Q	Do you know if there was anyone
	8	else who was assisting her on that data entry
	9	on to computer?
10		A	I don't believe so, at least not to
11	my knowledge.
12		Q	Did you have an understanding as to
13	why there was no one else assisting her?

14		A	It was my understanding that she
15	had taken on the role that Deb Gorham had
16	performed prior to her departing The White
17	House, and actually, I just now remembered
18	that Deb Gorham had also said she was

19	inputting data, which is why I suppose that I
20	made leap in assumption.  In any event, Betsy
21	Pond seemed to continue that role.
22		Q	Did she say she was inputting data


					111
	1	from files, Deb Gorham?
	2		A	She did, but she did not say FBI
	3	files.  It was Betsy Pond who said FBI files.
	4		Q	Did you ever see printouts of the
	5	data that either Deb Gorham or Betsy Pond was
	6	inputting into the computer?
	7		A	I did not.  No.
	8		Q	Do you know whether the inputs into
	9	the computer were stored on hard drive or
10	diskette?
11		A	I don't know.  I don't know.  Betsy
12	had disks on her desk, loose disks.  They
13	could have been correspondence disks,
14	telephone log disks, or file disks.  I have
15	no idea.
16			I routinely saved everything on the

17	hard drive at The White House, and those of
18	us in the west wing Counsel's Office
19	generally did, because we didn't have a great
20	deal of mass production, and there was no

21	need to keep a large pile of disks on hand.
22	We just deleted as we went along for space,


					112
	1	knowing that the record was never really
	2	deleted.
	3		Q	Did you know whether or not
	4	recordations on computer went into a backup
	5	system, a server?
	6		A	We certainly understood that in the
	7	Counsel's Office, yes.
	8		Q	Did you have to do anything in
	9	particular in using the computer to make sure
10	it was backed up on a server?
11		A	No, we were told, actually, that

12	everything, including our electronic mail
13	transmissions, were backed up on a giant big
14	brother kind of machine, and it has since
15	been proven to be true in my case.
16		Q	Did people refer to it as Big
17	Brother?
18		A	Yes.
19		Q	Where was that Big Brother housed?
20	Did anyone discuss that?
21		A	I don't remember, no.  I don't
22	remember, sort of the big computer heaven in


					113
	1	the sky somewhere.  I have no idea.  I know

	2	that computer people came over from the New
	3	Executive Office Building to assist us when
	4	we had problems.  I don't know.

	5		Q	Was there ever any understanding in
	6	The White House Counsel's Office that there
	7	was any kind of surveillance system, video or
	8	audio, to record what went on in that office?
	9		A	I'm sorry.  In the counsel's
10	office?
11		Q	Yes.
12		A	I don't know.
13		Q	Did anyone ever say that?
14		A	Video or audio?  I don't believe
15	so, huh-uh.
16		Q	Was there ever any understanding

17	that such systems existed when you worked in
18	the President's office?
19		A	Well, let me back up and tell you
20	that you're not, of course, referring to the
21	security alarm, correct?  That the Counsel's
22	Office along with the Chief of Staff, the


					114
	1	Vice President, National Security Advisor,
	2	and the President --
	3		MS. SHAPIRO:  I would just like to
	4	caution the witness not to talk about any

	5	Secret Service systems or security control
	6	devices.
	7		MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify this.  I
	8	object to your interceding and instructing
	9	this witness to do this or that.  If you want
10	to discuss that with Mr. Zaccagnini, that's
11	fine, but for you to try to give her an
12	impression of what's appropriate or not on
13	the record is inappropriate.
14		MS. SHAPIRO:  Well, it's inasmuch
15	as directed to Mr. Zaccagnini.
16		MR. KLAYMAN:  If you want to go off
17	the record at some later point, that's fine.
18		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's fine.  Go
19	ahead, Mr. Klayman.
20		THE WITNESS:  Can I answer or not?
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  This is exactly the
22	problem, because she hears the U.S.


				115
	1	Department of Justice making that kind of
	2	objection, and she wonders whether she's in
	3	jeopardy in giving a response.
	4		MS. SHAPIRO:  We're entitled to
	5	protect our interests here.  There are

	6	interests.  She's a former government
	7	employee and a current government employee.
	8	If you like, we can take a break, and I'll
	9	talk to Mr. Zaccagnini, and we can see what
10	she can testify to.
11		We also have, by the way, a court
12	order about Secret Service systems, which
13	you're aware.
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'd like to step

15	outside and talk to her for a second; so why
16	don't we go off the record?  To Ms. Shapiro.
17		MR. KLAYMAN:  Can I be privy to the
18	conversation?
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Sure.
20		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
21	video record at 12:31.

22		     (Recess)


					116
	1			THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
	2	video record at 12:38.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	4		Q	Were you aware of any security
	5	systems when you worked in the Office of the
	6	President?
	7		A	Yes.
	8		Q	What types of security systems?
	9	I'm not asking for the specifics.
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At this point in
11	time, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to advise
12	Ms. Tripp not to answer that question out of

13	concerns for national security.  I would ask
14	that you defer any questions relating to the
15	security system, until we either take this up
16	with the judge, or you can show me an order
17	that would cause me to change my opinion.
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	Let me ask just a general question.
20	Did you have the impression that you were

21	being videotaped when you worked in the
22	President's Office?


				117
	1		MS. SHAPIRO:  Asked and answered.
	2		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
	3	advise Ms. Tripp not to answer that question,

	4	although I think she has already responded to
	5	the question.
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  That was The White
	7	House Counsel's Office.
	8		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Again, out of

	9	national security concerns, I'm going to
10	advise her not to respond to that question .
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.
12		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13	     Q	When you saw this computer screen
14	that Betsy Pond was working on, other than
15	columns, did you note anything else?
16	     A	It wasn't just columns, but I

17	don't -- I know that it was unfamiliar to me.
18	It was not The White House Counsel's Office
19	correspondence tracking database.  It was not
20	a database with which I was familiar with.
21	     Q	Did she ever tell you that only she
22	had access to that kind of a computer


				118
	1	program?
	2	     A	I don't recall her saying that to
	3	me.  I don't know that that came up.
	4	     Q	I may have asked this question
	5	before, but just to be sure, were there White
	6	House databases that Ms. Pond had access to
	7	that you didn't?  Were you aware of that?
	8		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Only if you know
	9	the answer to that.
10		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

11		THE WITNESS:  I knew that I didn't
12	have access to the one she was working on,

13	because in response to your earlier question,
14	the one that just preceded this one, the only
15	indication Betsy had given me at all about
16	the peculiar nature of this particular
17	database was in bemoaning the fact that it
18	was yet another software she had to learn,
19	and it was not her strongest ability, shall
20	we say, computers in general.  And so, to the
21	extent that she explained that it was
22	frustrating to have to learn a new software


					119
	1	entry system, that was frustrating for Betsy.

	2	And I did not know, nor was I familiar at all
	3	with that database.
	4			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5		Q	Was it a windows' format?  Do you
	6	know?
	7		A	I don't know.  It was just a
	8	screen.  I don't remember what --
	9		Q	Was there anything that was

10	circulated in The White House Counsel's
11	Office making reference to a new database
12	system in and around the time that you saw
13	Ms. Pond entering files into the system?
14		A	I don't recall -- excuse me one
15	moment.

16			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
17			THE WITNESS:  The question was
18	concerning documents circulating; is that the
19	question?
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	Was there any notification in the

22	office about a new database system in and


					120
	1	around that period of time that you had this
	2	conversation with Ms. Pond about loading
	3	files onto the computer?
	4			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.

	5			THE WITNESS:  Frankly, I don't
	6	recall any such notification of any kind.  I
	7	wouldn't, most likely in my case, would not
	8	have paid much attention, because it had
	9	nothing to do with my particular role, which
10	was very -- had very little computer

11	application at all in my role in that office.
12			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13		Q	During the time that you were in
14	The White House, did you ever see any written
15	materials or otherwise concerning the
16	handling of FBI files?

17		A	I did not.
18		Q	During the time that you were in
19	The White House, did you see any information
20	pertaining to the Privacy Act?
21		A	Frequently, the Privacy Act, yes,

22	would come up, as it pertained to the release


					121
	1	of information to the public or to the
	2	release of information in general.  And I
	3	know that that was an issue that arose
	4	frequently in the Counsel's Office, but my
	5	observation of that, at that time, would
	6	simply have been to acknowledge that I was
	7	hearing that we adhere to the Privacy Act in

	8	a general understanding of what that implied
	9	and nothing more.
10		Q	It was your understanding that The
11	White House's counsel office adhered to the
12	Privacy Act?
13		A	At the time, yes.
14		Q	At the time you worked there?
15		A	Yes.
16		Q	It was your understanding at the
17	time you worked in the President's office

18	that the President's office also adhered to
19	the Privacy Act?
20		A	Absolutely.  Remember, I have

21	a 19-year government career.  It never
22	occurred to me that -- I believe the Privacy


					122
	1	Act was instituted in 1974.  I would never
	2	have thought in the 1990s that in any
	3	government agency it would be an issue for
	4	debate.
	5		Q	During the time that you worked in
	6	The White House, no one ever told you the
	7	Privacy Act does not apply?
	8		A	Oh, no.  No.
	9		Q	People did tell you the Privacy Act
10	does apply?
11		A	Again, I don't recall a direct
12	conversation with anyone about whether or not

13	it did apply.  My sense was that we adhered
14	to the Privacy Act restrictions.
15		Q	You don't remember anything in

16	writing that specifically said the Privacy
17	Act does not apply to The White House?
18		A	Oh, absolutely not.
19		Q	Or any office of the White House?
20		A	I would remember such a statement
21	anywhere.
22			MR. KLAYMAN:  I think we can take a


			123
	1	lunch break at this point.  Resume in an

	2	hour.  We're not sure we have the right
	3	order, but if not, we'll get you some more
	4	orders.  We got orders that have orders.
	5	          THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
	6	video record at 12:45.
	7	               (Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., a
	8	               luncheon recess was taken.)

9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22


				124
	1	      A F T E R N O O N  S E S S I O N
	2		                               (1:52 p.m.)
	3	Whereupon,
	4		     LINDA R. TRIPP
	5	was recalled as a witness and, having been
	6	previously duly sworn, was examined and
	7	testified further as follows:
	8		EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
	9		CONTINUED
10		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
11	video record at 1:52.
12		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13	     Q	Ms. Tripp, before we broke for

14	lunch, we were asking about what types of
15	White House systems, either computer systems
16	or security systems -- we were talking about
17	security systems -- that you were aware of
18	when you worked there.  We're not interested
19	in technical specifications but just what

20	type of systems were in existence, and I've
21	referred your counsel to an order of April
22	13, 1998, of this court at page 14.


					125
	1		MS. SHAPIRO:  I think, then, if
	2	this this what you intend on doing, we should
	3	contact the court at this time because the
	4	order that you referred to had to do with the
	5	30(b)(6) deposition.  It did not have to do
	6	with security systems.  I don't know if
	7	Mr. Zaccagnini was made aware of the order

	8	which explicitly says that Secret Service
	9	systems and other systems of that nature are
10	irrelevant to this action.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm asking about
12	White House systems.  If you're going to make
13	an issue of that, we'll defer that until

14	later and get back to this, and that's one
15	reason why we may want to have the hearing
16	with the court tomorrow morning.
17		MS. SHAPIRO:  We'd like to do that
18	now, then.
19		MR. KLAYMAN:  I know you'd like to
20	break up my deposition but you're not going
21	to do that.
22		MS. SHAPIRO:  I think that's the


					126
	1	required procedure.
	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  We'll proceed the way
	3	I want to proceed and I'm withdrawing the
	4	question right now.  I'd ask you not to run

	5	out the clock with things after I've already
	6	agreed with you.
	7		MS. SHAPIRO:  I don't understand
	8	that comment but please proceed.
	9		MR. KLAYMAN:  I said we'll put it
10	off until later.
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  Please proceed.
12		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13	     Q	Ms. Tripp, you previously testified
14	that the computer that Betsy Pond told you
15	she was inputting FBI files on had been
16	Deborah Gorham's computer; is that correct?
17		MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
18		THE WITNESS:  I believe what I said
19	was that Deborah Gorham departed The White
20	House having left the computer she had had in
21	the West Wing at her duty station outside
22	Bill Kennedy's office.  Betsy then took that


					127
	1	position and that desk and to the best of my
	2	knowledge retained that computer.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	4		Q	So the computer wasn't moved
	5	somewhere else and then moved back?  That was
	6	the impression we had this morning.
	7		A	It was moved from the West Wing
	8	against my recommendations for other salient
	9	reasons and was moved to her new location,

10	Deborah Gorham's new location, outside Bill
11	Kennedy's office.  That's one computer that
12	went from the West Wing counsel's office, a
13	secured office, to an Old EOB open office.
14		Q	And why did you have concern that
15	it was being moved from a secured office to
16	an open office?
17		A	We were in the midst of various
18	inquiries as to the aftermath of Vince
19	Foster's death, and I raised the issue with
20	Steve Neuwirth -- actually, with Bernie
21	Nussbuam initially, who agreed that it would
22	not be smart to allow the computer which


					128
	1	required compartmentalized password codes to

	2	access some of the data in that computer to
	3	leave a secured office, and we informed

	4	Deborah Gorham that she would receive a
	5	similar if not exact duplicate of her machine
	6	at her new location, and that's the way it
	7	was left until a day or so later, when I

	8	returned to the counsel's office and her
	9	computer was missing.  So it had been moved
10	and Steve Neuwirth had authorized its move.
11		Q	What was Steve Neuwirth's position
12	at the time?
13		A	I think his title was one of the
14	many associate counsel to the President.

15		Q	Had you recommended to Mr. Neuwirth
16	or others that that computer prior to being
17	moved be secured?
18		A	Well, I had to Mr. Nussbaum, who
19	agreed with me.  I had intended to speak with
20	Steve Neuwirth, who generally sort of became
21	the logistical coordination between the Old
22	EOB and the West Wing.  I don't remember if I


					129
	1	had a direct conversation with him prior to
	2	that.  I did have one with Deborah Gorham
	3	following my conversation with Bernie,
	4	explained the rationale and why the decision
	5	had been made.
	6			She was not happy with it, went to
	7	Steve Neuwirth independently, and he
	8	authorized its move.  I did speak to him

	9	immediately thereafter and expressed my
10	outrage.  And his reply to me was, "I never
11	thought of that."
12		Q	What I'm trying to understand is
13	the computer that Betsy Pond was entering the
14	FBI file data was that different than the

15	computer that had originally been moved of
16	Deborah Gorham?
17		A	I have no way of knowing.
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
19			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

20		Q	You don't know?
21		A	Sorry.
22		Q	And which office did Deborah


					130
	1	Gorham's computer go to originally?

	2			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
	3			THE WITNESS:  Bill Kennedy's outer
	4	office, where she sat for the rest of her
	5	tenure at The White House.

	6			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7		Q	Deborah Gorham?
	8		A	Yeah.
	9		Q	Until she left?
10		A	(Nodding)

11		Q	And you don't know whether Betsy
12	Pond inherited that particular computer?

13		A	I don't know that for a fact, no.
14		Q	Based on your knowledge and
15	experience in working in The White House,
16	where would computers be stored if they're no
17	longer in service?
18		A	There's a large computer office,

19	computer functions office, the name I don't
20	recall at this moment, that serviced all our
21	needs, removed computers, repaired them,

22	brought us new, updated them, and where we


					131
	1	were told the back repository was located,
	2	and I'm not real sure exactly where they were

	3	located.  I know a portion of that office was
	4	located in the New EOB.  I don't know if the
	5	basement of the Old EOB was part of that as

	6	well because some of our calls went to a
	7	different location than the new EOB.
	8		Q	You said that Deborah Gorham's
	9	computer, the original one that you were

10	concerned about, had access codes, correct?
11		A	Yes.
12		Q	Did the Betsy Pond computer that
13	was used for entering FBI files have access
14	codes to?
15			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the
16	form.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

18		Q	You can respond.
19		A	I don't know.
20		Q	Now, did there come a point --
21		A	May I just finish that?
22		Q	Sure.


					132
	1		A	I don't know because I never
	2	accessed Betsy Pond's or -- I never accessed
	3	the computer at which Betsy Pond sat once
	4	that computer moved to the Old EOB.  So
	5	whether it was the same one or a different

	6	one, I never sat at the computer and opened
	7	it or entered it in any way.  That was not

	8	the case with the computer when it was in Deb
	9	Gorham's workstation in the counsel's office.
10	Often I would access that computer and -- in
11	her absence or when it was appropriate and

12	often the screen would flash, too, that you
13	needed a passcode for this file.
14		Q	That was Gorham's computer?
15		A	Right.
16		Q	But did Betsy Pond's screen ever
17	flash that you needed an access code?
18		A	In the West Wing?
19		Q	Yes.
20		A	No, nor did mine, nor did anyone
21	else's.
22		Q	Did you ever see any computer that


					133
	1	Betsy Pond was using that flashed notating

	2	that it was a passcode that was required?
	3		A	I have no information about that.
	4		Q	Now, this morning you testified
	5	about a file labeled "Dale" and files that
	6	were similar to a file labeled "Dale" that
	7	later made their way from Vince Foster's
	8	office apparently into Vince Foster's safe?
	9		A	Correct.
10		Q	And you testified that you saw

11	other files in that safe that looked similar
12	to those files, correct?
13		A	Correct.
14		Q	And you testified that they later
15	were identified to you as FBI files, correct?
16		A	I testified that files with a
17	similar commonality to those files that you
18	just spoke of were FBI files, that's true.

19		Q	And did there come a point in time
20	when you saw other files that looked like
21	those I've just identified?
22			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.


					134
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	In The White House counsel's
	3	office?
	4			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.

	5			MR. KLAYMAN:  That's just for the
	6	record.  Let me rephrase it.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	You testified with regard to the
	9	Dale file and similar files, and you
10	testified that in Foster's safe you saw files
11	that were similar to those?
12		A	Right.
13		Q	And you testified later that Betsy
14	Pond told you she was entering FBI files into
15	her computer?
16			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18		Q	You can respond.  Correct?
19		A	Well, I think the last part of it
20	isn't exactly true.  She said she was
21	entering data and referred to "the files" and
22	pointed back to the location where the files


					135
	1	we had referenced in an earlier conversation

	2	had been.  My assumption from that was that
	3	they were FBI files.
	4		Q	And they looked like what had been
	5	identified as FBI files?
	6		A	Yes.  Absolutely, mm-hmm.
	7		Q	Now, did there come a point in time
	8	when you saw other files in that office, not
	9	those I've just identified but additional
10	files that looked similar?
11		A	You mean I did see these very same
12	sort of files in Craig Livingstone's office.
13		Q	Yes.  When did you see them in
14	Craig Livingstone's office?
15		A	More than one time and far fewer

16	than were in Bill Kennedy's office but still
17	the same look again.  But I was told that
18	those were not security background files
19	because I asked the question on a visit over
20	there on administrative tasking that had to
21	do with Craig Livingstone's assistant, and
22	that day I asked Craig and I also asked


				136
	1	Anthony Marceca at one point if all those

	2	files were past applications or security
	3	backgrounds for White House staff.
	4		This was quite a ways into the
	5	first year, and many White House staff were
	6	still wearing the temporary blue passes.  So

	7	I assumed at first that perhaps all the files
	8	could have been security, but I was told they
	9	were not.
10	     Q	Are you referring to the Office of
11	Personnel Security?
12	     A	I believe that's how it is named,
13	yes.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  I show you what I'll
15	ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 6.
16		     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 6
17		     was marked for identification.)
18		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19	     Q	Exhibit 6 is an article written by
20	Brian Blomquist of The New York Post, "Tripp:
21	Telling the Truth's Very Easy," consists of

22	three pages.


					137
	1		A	When was this written?
	2		Q	It was written on or about July 1,

	3	1998.  The date's on the right-hand corner at
	4	the bottom.
	5			MR. GAFFNEY:  That's when it was
	6	printed out.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	Well, it was in that time period.
	9		A	I see.
10		Q	And I'm just going to use it to
11	refresh your recollection.  Incidentally, in
12	answer to your question, the first paragraph
13	says, "Washington Starr Sexgate witness Linda
14	Tripp spent more than seven hours before the
15	Sexgate grand jury yesterday and is set to be
16	back on the stand with tales of more
17	scandals."  Apparently, this was written
18	after your appearance before the grand jury.
19		A	And obviously not by The Washington 
20	Post, huh?
21		Q	No.  How can you tell that?
22		A	Just guessing.


				138
	1		MR. KLAYMAN:  Have anything to do
	2	with the content?
	3		     (Pause)
	4		THE WITNESS:  Yes.  What is your
	5	question, Mr. Klayman?
	6		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7	     Q	I'm turning to the third page,
	8	between the second and the third page, at the
	9	bottom of the second page where it says,

10	"Tripp, who worked with White House counsel
11	Vince Foster before he killed himself, could
12	face questions about the improper acquisition
13	of FBI files on Republicans by The White
14	House and the Whitewater financial scandal.
15	Starr also is probing Filegate and
16	Whitewater."
17		Going on to the third page,
18	"Goldberg said Tripp told her she witnessed a
19	White House secretary loading up FBI files on
20	a computer.  Did you tell Lucianne Goldberg
21	that"?
22	     A	I may have actually in 1996.


					139
	1		Q	And then it states, "She was there
	2	when she came in with hand trucks of FBI
	3	files one day.  She walked over to use
	4	another secretary's computer to get a phone
	5	number and found the screen flashed up
	6	'encrypted.'"  Is that an accurate recitation
	7	of what you told Lucianne Goldberg?
	8		A	No.
	9		Q	What is not accurate about it?
10		A	Well, this appears to be in Lucy's
11	peculiar style.  I don't know what a hand

12	truck is, and I never witnessed hand trucks
13	or any other sort of trucks loading or
14	unloading FBI files at The White House.  This
15	reference to "encrypted" I can only surmise
16	references the password entry key that was
17	necessary on Deb Gorham's machine while still
18	housed in the counsel's office West Wing,

19	where certain words would prompt a passcode
20	entry necessity.  The word "encrypted" I
21	don't recall.
22		Q	What is a hand truck to you?


					140
	1		A	I have no idea.
	2		Q	Later on, when you worked in The
	3	White House Counsel's Office, did you become
	4	aware of FBI files other than those you
	5	identified this morning?
	6			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.

	7			THE WITNESS:  Well, I think it's
	8	fair to say for the record that I to this

	9	date don't know what I saw, but I am certain
10	in my own mind what I saw.  It's probably

11	important to note that I never saw an FBI
12	folder or any folder that was emblazoned with
13	the seal of the FBI or the Department of
14	Justice in any way.  I think I've stated that
15	I can say with confidence what they were not
16	and can say with confidence what I was told
17	they were.  I don't know that I can say with
18	confidence what they were in actuality.
19		Q	Well, what were you told?
20		A	I was told they were FBI files by
21	Betsy Pond.  I believe they were FBI files.
22	I'm just saying that, knowing that we have


					141
	1	such an illustrious group of attorneys
	2	surrounding this table, that at one point I

	3	will be asked to defend my statements, and I
	4	intend to testify completely truthfully
	5	regardless of how the chips may fall.  I have
	6	done so and to the best of my ability, I
	7	might add.  So that's about all I can tell
	8	you about those files.
	9		Q	Tell us who had access to files

10	that were identified by Betsy Pond as FBI
11	files when you worked in The White House
12	counsel's office?

13		A	Well, to my limited knowledge, the
14	only individuals I saw with access would be
15	Vince Foster, Bill Kennedy, Betsy Pond, and
16	those other people who attended the Travel

17	Office meetings whom I listed for you earlier
18	and only in that they attended a meeting

19	where the files came in and did not leave.
20		Q	Did you ever see Bill Kennedy with
21	files that you believed were FBI files?
22		A	Yes.


						142
	1		Q	When was that?
	2		A	Excuse me one moment.
	3			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
	4			THE WITNESS:  At one point, and I'm
	5	uncertain with the date, I observed Bill

	6	Kennedy in the hallway of the Old EOB in
	7	close proximity to his office holding some of
	8	those same file folders which had that
	9	familiar look by that point in a conversation
10	with Marcia Scott.  The conversation I
11	overheard had to do with database.
12			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13		Q	Did you hear anything more?
14		A	Yes.
15		Q	What else did you hear?
16			MS. SHAPIRO:  Well, I can object to
17	the relevancy.  Could we take a break for a
18	moment, please?  We need to discuss
19	something.
20			MR. KLAYMAN:  No.  I want to get
21	the testimony right now.
22			MS. SHAPIRO:  We can't allow her to


				143
	1	testify until we determine whether she

	2	overheard something that is protected.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  We're going to

	4	continue with the testimony.  There's nothing
	5	that is in any way out of the ordinary.
	6		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I think at this
	7	point in time I believe we should recess.  I
	8	think the information that Ms. Tripp would

	9	divulge would include privilege.  I think
10	it's incumbent upon me because that party's
11	Linda's employer so they can ascertain
12	whether to assert the privilege.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's take a brief
14	break.
15		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
16	video record at 2:12.

17		     (Recess)
18		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
19	video record at 2:23.
20		MS. SHAPIRO:  Our privilege
21	concerns are satisfied, so we're not imposing
22	an objection.


				144
	1		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2	     Q	Thank you.  You can respond,
	3	assuming you remember the question.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Please repeat the
	5	question, Mr. Klayman.
	6		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7	     Q	I believe your testimony was that

	8	you saw William Kennedy with a stack of what
	9	you took to be FBI files under his arm

10	discussing The White House database with
11	Betsy Pond --
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
13	Mischaracterizes.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  Why don't you
15	rephrase it, Linda?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Why don't you set
17	the tone correctly, set the scene correctly,
18	and then provide the substance of that
19	conversation.
20		THE WITNESS:  What little there
21	was.  There were two such conversations which
22	I recall.  One was in the hallway in the Old


				145
	1	EOB in close proximity to Bill Kennedy's Old
	2	EOB office with Marcia Scott, and the very
	3	brief portion of the conversation that I
	4	heard before I was seen was referencing the

	5	files in his hand, which again shared that
	6	same commonality with all the other ones, but
	7	it was as though Marcia Scott was instructing
	8	Bill Kennedy, which was somewhat unusual, in
	9	my opinion, based on their differing roles,
10	about the database.
11		And the portion of the conversation
12	that I heard involved entering this
13	information into a database here at The White
14	House and shared with the DNC so that both

15	would have access to this database, whatever
16	that database might be.

17		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18	     Q	When approximately did this
19	conversation take place?  What year was it?
20	     A	I believe, and again I'm vague on
21	the time, it had to have been either very
22	late in '93 or very early in '94.  I was


			146
	1	always sensitive to Marcia Scott issues
	2	because technically The White House counsel's
	3	office, Bruce Lindsey and Vince Foster, had

	4	brokered a deal with Marcia Scott who owned
	5	me on paper and who had agreed to allow me to
	6	accept a position with Bernie Nussbuam and be
	7	assigned on paper to the counsel's office but
	8	belong technically to correspondence from
	9	whence I came, which allowed me to maintain
10	the apolitical nature of my appointment and
11	thus my viability through differing opposing
12	administrations.
13	          So there had been some tension with
14	Marcia Scott and myself from early on having
15	to do with roles and functions from the early
16	days of the administration.  So, in any
17	event, whenever Marcia Scott was speaking to
18	anybody in the counsel's office, I was
19	somewhat wary, and so I listened whenever I
20	could.  This was one such time.
21	     Q    Now, you touched on a number of

22	issues.  Let's take them one by one.  The


					147
	1	entry into the database, did you take that to

	2	mean the files that Mr. Kennedy was carrying
	3	at the time?
	4		A	Yes.
	5		Q	And these were the files that had
	6	the same characteristics as what you
	7	understood to be FBI files?
	8		A	Yeah.  It was relatively speaking
	9	in a very short window of time to the
10	conversation I had had with Betsy Pond about
11	FBI files.  So, I mean, this wasn't -- and
12	still I wasn't seeing any sort of nefarious
13	intent here.  It just was something I was
14	taking in.
15		Q	Well, because at that time you
16	didn't know about the FBI files controversy?
17		A	No.
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
19			THE WITNESS:  Well, I was not

20	cognizant at all of this being possibly
21	something illegal or something in violation
22	of privacy.  I had just assumed that, if it


					148
	1	was done at The White House, for the most
	2	part it was a government agency and they knew

	3	what they were doing.  I mean, it just didn't
	4	register as a problem at that point.  Only
	5	the seeds had been planted, shall we say, but
	6	not anything concrete.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	And you said at the time that you
	9	took note of this conversation because of the
10	differing roles of William Kennedy and Marcia
11	Scott, correct?
12		A	Correct.
13		Q	What were those differing roles?

14		A	Well, my experience had been that
15	-- well, first of all, Bill Kennedy, as a
16	rather senior associate in The White House

17	counsel's office with seemingly a great deal
18	more influence than his peers, and Marcia
19	Scott, who was at that time the director of
20	presidential correspondence, whose
21	interaction with The White House counsel's
22	office at that level on a professional basis


				149
	1	had been rather limited.
	2		We had -- I was able to observe
	3	from early May on the comings and goings and

	4	the phone calls of the senior staff and the
	5	principals in my office, Marcia Scott, wasn't
	6	one other than to invite Vince on Tuesday
	7	nights to their Arkansan reunion dinners.  So
	8	it was something that I took note of when she
	9	popped up.
10	     Q	You said that William Kennedy's
11	influence seemed to be greater than what his
12	position would ordinarily create?
13		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
14		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15	     Q	That was your impression.  He was
16	an associate counsel, correct?
17	     A	Yeah, and at this point in time I
18	don't remember whether he had just a slightly
19	more illustrious title than associate
20	counsel, but it was, in any event, I don't
21	believe much different from Beth Nolan or
22	some of the folks who were also associates in


					150
	1	the counsel's office.
	2		Q	You understood him to have
	3	tremendous influence?
	4		A	Oh, absolutely.
	5			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	6			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7		Q	And was your understanding based

	8	upon his prior relationship at the Rose Law
	9	Firm with Hillary Clinton?
10			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
11	Foundation.
12			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

13		Q	You can respond.
14		A	I believe that my impression was
15	formed earlier than that.  It was in the

16	immediate office of the President when I was
17	first introduced to Bill Kennedy along with
18	Vince Foster and several others at which time
19	his value and importance to the
20	administration and to the Clintons was made
21	quite plain to me.
22		Q	And who made it plain to you?


				151
	1	     A	Bruce Lindsey, Deb Coyle, Nancy
	2	Hernreich.
	3	     Q	And what did one or more of them
	4	tell you about his importance to the
	5	administration, and identify who it was?
	6	     A	I'm sorry.  I can't remember who

	7	said what at that -- my impression from all
	8	of them was that he was a valued friend and
	9	extremely loyal former partner; in fact, I
10	believe they had said managing partner of
11	Mrs. Clinton's law firm along with Vince

12	Foster, who had also been a partner,
13	apparently, and it was a very close -- a
14	feeling of closeness that was relayed to me.
15		In other words, his calls were
16	taken far more easily than, say, someone else
17	of his position.  In fact, frequently -- I'm
18	trying to think of another associate who
19	might have called at that time Bruce Lindsey,
20	who was senior advisor to the President at
21	that time, or the President or Nancy
22	Hernreich directly, and I can't think of any.


					152
	1		Q	Were you aware of Marcia Scott's

	2	importance to the Clintons at the time you
	3	observed that conversation?
	4			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	5			THE WITNESS:  I was aware of how

	6	Marcia Scott portrayed her importance to the
	7	Clintons at that point in time.
	8			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	9		Q	She had portrayed it to you?

10		A	Mm-hmm, and to anyone else who
11	would listen.
12		Q	And what did she tell you about her
13	importance vis-a-vis the Clintons?
14		A	That she was a valued friend for

15	many years, had been a former girlfriend of
16	the President, still enjoyed a very close
17	relationship with the President.
18		Q	What do you mean by "close"?

19		A	She said a very close relationship.
20	There were opportunities on weekends when we
21	were working where she would often intimate
22	that she was hopping over to the residence to


				153
	1	see the President and watch a football game

	2	and that sort of thing.  It was her way of
	3	letting us know that she was an insider.  We
	4	certainly got the message.
	5	     Q	Did there come a point in time when
	6	you became aware that she had involvement
	7	with President Clinton's alleged prior
	8	relationships?
	9		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
10	object and instruct the witness not to
11	respond to that inquiry because I don't
12	believe it's in any way relevant.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll hold it for
14	later.  It's getting to the threat issue but
15	I'll hold it for later.
16		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
17	Relevance.
18		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19	     Q	You are aware, are you not,
20	Ms. Tripp, of articles that have been written
21	by people such as Dick Morris who have stated
22	that Marcia Scott was the person who dealt


						154
	1	with the so-called bimbo problem of the
	2	President?
	3			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form and
	4	relevance.
	5			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Are you aware of
	6	the articles?
	7			THE WITNESS:  I heard the question.
	8	May I answer it?
	9			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes.
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11		Q	Yes.
12		A	I don't know that I'm aware of

13	articles, and I don't recall knowing this
14	information prior to '97.
15		Q	Did she ever tell you that one of
16	her roles in her association with President
17	Clinton was to keep people who might expose
18	things about his past from doing so?

19			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
20	Relevance.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

22		Q	You can respond.


					155
	1		A	No, not in that way.  I for better
	2	or worse coined the term "protecters," the
	3	protecters, the facilitators, the graduates,
	4	and Marcia was the original graduate in my

	5	book.  She was not what I perceived at the
	6	time to be a protecter.
	7		Q	What is a protecter?
	8		A	For my purposes, protecter would
	9	have been Betty -- Bruce --
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Excuse me for a
11	second.
12			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
13			THE WITNESS:  In my mind, the
14	protecters were the individuals who either

15	were assigned or took upon theirselfs the
16	role of protecting the President, often from
17	himself.
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	And who were those people?
20			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
21	object.
22			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.


					156
	1		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I think again
	2	we're way far afield.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  We're dealing here

	4	with a bona fide Clinton controversy called
	5	Filegate, and I want to know who the
	6	protecters are that may have protected him
	7	from that controversy.  This is discovery

	8	that may lead to relevant evidence.
	9		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'd like to

10	suggest a more appropriate question which
11	might be does Mrs. Tripp know of any people

12	who were protecting the President's interest
13	with respect to Filegate.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  She may or may not
15	know about that but the issue is whether I
16	can go beyond that because of discovery.  If
17	she doesn't have a direct hit, that still

18