1
	1	        UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
	2
		---------------------------x
	3	CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER		:
		et al.,					:
	4						:
Plaintiffs, :
	5						:
				v.		: Civil No. 96-2163 (RCL)
	6						:
		FEDERAL BUREAU OF		:

	7	INVESTIGATION et al.,		:
							:
	8				Defendants. : Volume 1
		---------------------------x
	9
								Washington, D.C. 10
						Monday, December 14, 1998 11
12	Deposition of
13				LINDA R. TRIPP
14	a witness, called for examination by counsel
15	for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and
16	agreement of counsel, beginning at
17	approximately 10:23 a.m. at the law offices
18	of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street
19	Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Joan V.

20	Cain, notary public in and for the District
21	of Columbia, when were present on behalf of
22	the respective parties:


				2
	1    APPEARANCES:
	2       On behalf of Plaintiffs:
	3	LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
		PAUL ORFANEDES, ESQUIRE
	4	DEBORAH BERLINER, ESQUIRE

		Judicial Watch
	5	501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725
Washington, D.C.  20024
	6	(888) JWETHIC
7       On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Executive

	8		Office of the President:
	9	ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
		JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE
10	Federal Programs Branch

		Civil Division
11	901 E Street Northwest, Room 988
		Washington, D.C.  20530

12	(202) 514-5302
13	PHILIP D. BARTZ, ESQUIRE
		Office of the Deputy Assistant 
14	Attorney General for Federal Programs
		United States Department of Justice
15	Ninth & Pennsylvania Avenues Northwest
Washington, D.C.  20530
16	(202) 514-5421
17       On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation:
18
		JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE
19	Office of General Counsel
		Federal Bureau of Investigation
20	935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest
		Washington, D.C.  20535

21	(202) 324-9665
22


				3
	1    APPEARANCES (CONT'D):
	2	On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton:
	3		PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE

Williams & Connolly
	4		725 Twelfth Street Northwest
			Washington, D.C.  20005

	5		(202) 434-5000
	6	On behalf of The White House:
	7		SALLY PAXTON, ESQUIRE
		Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8		The White House
			Washington, D.C.  20500
	9		(202) 456-5079
10	On behalf of Defendant Department of Defense:
11		ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE
			Federal Programs Branch
12		Civil Division
			United States Department of Justice
13		901 E Street Northwest, Room 1034
			Washington, D.C.  20530

14		(202) 514-3395
15		BRAD WIEGMANN, ESQUIRE
			Office of General Counsel 
16		United States Department of Defense
			1600 Defense Pentagon, Room 3C975 17		Washington, D.C.  20301

(703) 695-3392
18
		On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 19
			ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE
20		Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz
			51 West 52nd Street

21		New York, New York  10019-6618
(212) 403-1000
22


				4
	1    APPEARANCES (CONT'D):
2         On behalf of the Office of the Independent
			Counsel:
	3
JOSEPH M. DITKOFF, ESQUIRE
	4	STEPHEN BINHAK, ESQUIRE
		Office of Independent Counsel

	5	1001 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest,
			Suite 490 North

	6	Washington, D.C.  20004
(202) 514-8688
	7
	8       On behalf of Deponent:
	9	ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE
		ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE 10	Semmes Bowen & Semmes
		250 West Pratt Street
11	Baltimore, Maryland  21201
(410) 385-3935
12
13
14		      *  *  *  *  *
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22


						5
	1		     C O N T E N T S
	2	EXAMINATION BY:                            PAGE

	3	     Counsel for Plaintiffs	10
	4	TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
	5	No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments	11
	6	No. 2 - Renotice of Deposition	11
	7	No. 3 - Response to Plaintiffs'	12
			Request for Documents
	8
		No. 4 - Privilege Log	13
	9
		No. 5 - Letter, Landes to Zaccagnini,	14
10		Attachments
11	No. 6 - New York Post News Story            136
12	No. 7 - Defendant's Response to             206
			Request #3
13
		No. 8 - "JCS Privileged" List               277 14
15
16
				*  *  *  *  *
17
18
19
20
21
22


				6
	1		  P R O C E E D I N G S
	2		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Good morning.
	3	This is the video deposition of Linda R.
	4	Tripp taken by the counsel for the Plaintiffs

	5	in the matter of Cara Alexander et al. v. the 
	6	Federal Bureau of Investigation et al., held

	7	in the United States District Court for the
	8	District of Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held
	9	in the offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School
10	Street Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this
11	date, December 14, 1998, and at the time

12	indicated on the video screen, which is
13	10:23 a.m.
14		My name is Sylvanus Holley;  I'm
15	the videographer.  The court reporter today

16	is Joan Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting.
17		Will counsel now introduce
18	themselves?
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Anthony Zaccagnini
20	on behalf of Linda Tripp from Semmes Bowen &
21	Semmes in Baltimore.
22		MR. LARDIERI:  Anthony Lardieri,


				7
	1	also on behalf of Linda Tripp, also from
	2	Semmes Bowen & Semmes.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's redo that
	4	because he was panning to me at the time.
	5	Let's reintroduce ourselves.
	6		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Anthony Zaccagnini
	7	from Semmes Bowen & Semmes in Baltimore on
	8	behalf of Linda Tripp.
	9		MR. LARDIERI:  Anthony Lardieri

10	also from Semmes Bowen & Semmes in Baltimore
11	on behalf of Linda Tripp.
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  Elizabeth Shapiro

13	from the Department of Justice on behalf of
14	the Executive Office of the President and the
15	FBI.
16		MS. PAXTON:  Sally Paxton from The
17	White House.
18		MS. WEISMANN:  Anne Weismann from
19	the Department of Justice on behalf of the

20	Department of Defense.
21		MR. GAFFNEY:  Paul Gaffney,
22	Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First


				8
	1	Lady.
	2		MR. MAZUR:  Robert Mazur, Wachtell
	3	Lipton Rosen & Katz, representing Bernard
	4	Nussbuam.
	5		MR. KLAYMAN:  Larry Klayman,
	6	chairman and general counsel of Judicial
	7	Watch on behalf of Plaintiffs.
	8		MR. FITTON:  Tom Fitton, President
	9	of Judicial Watch.
10		MR. ORFANEDES:  Paul Orfanedes on
11	behalf of Judicial Watch.
12		MS. BERLINER:  Deborah Berliner on
13	behalf of Judicial Watch.
14		MR. BINHAK:  Stephen Binhak,
15	associate independent counsel on behalf of

16	the United States through the Independent
17	Counsel, Ken Starr.
18		MR. DITKOFF:  Joseph Ditkoff
19	associate independent counsel, Independent
20	Counsel's Office, by Kenneth Starr,
21	Independent Counsel.
22		MR. KLAYMAN:  If you can identify


				9
	1	the people along the back row there?
	2		MS. PETERSON:  Michelle Peterson
	3	from The White House.
	4		MR. WIEGMANN:  Brad Wiegmann,
	5	Department of Defense.
	6		MR. PIFER:  John Pifer, FBI General
	7	Counsel's Office.
	8		MR. GILLIGAN:  James Gilligan,
	9	Department of Justice.
10		MR. BARTZ:  Phil Bartz, Department
11	of Justice.
12		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Will the witness
13	please be sworn?
14	Whereupon,
15		     LINDA R. TRIPP
16	was called as a witness and, having been
17	first duly sworn, was examined and testified
18	as follows:
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman,
20	before we begin, I'd like to notify all the

21	counsel present that in the likely event that
22	this deposition were to go over one day's


					10
	1	duration the next available date in terms of

	2	Mrs. Tripp and her counsel would be Friday,
	3	the 18th, and I would propose that date in
	4	the event that we do have a carryover.
	5			MR. KLAYMAN:  Understood.

	6			EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	Ms. Tripp, would you please state
	9	your name?
10		A	My name is Linda R. Tripp.
11		Q	And when were you born?
12		A	November '49.
13		Q	And where was that?
14		A	Jersey City, New Jersey.
15		Q	Just run me through briefly what
16	your educational background is.
17		A	Twelve years of public schools in

18	Morris County, New Jersey, and follow on with
19	Kathryn Gibbs in Montclair, New Jersey.
20		Q	Did you receive a subpoena in this
21	lawsuit from the Plaintiffs sent to you by

22	Judicial Watch?


						11
	1		A	I did.
	2			MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm going to ask that
	3	the court mark as Exhibit 1 a copy of that
	4	subpoena and ask you to identify it.
	5				(Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 1

	6				was marked for identification.)
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	Is this a copy of the subpoena you
	9	were served with?
10		A	Yes, it is.
11		Q	And recently your counsel was sent
12	a renotice of deposition pursuant to this
13	subpoena.
14			MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll ask that that be
15	marked as Exhibit 2.
16				(Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 2
17				was marked for identification.)
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	Have you seen this document before?
20		A	I'd like a chance to review it just
21	briefly, if you don't mind.
22			Yes.


					12
	1		Q	This subpoena requires you to
	2	produce certain documents and things, and
	3	have you produced documents and things
	4	pursuant to the subpoena, which is Exhibit 1,
	5	as modified by the court's order, which is
	6	attached to Exhibit 2, which is the renotice
	7	of deposition?
	8		A	We have.
	9			MR. KLAYMAN:  And I'll show you

10	what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
11	Exhibit 3.
12			     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 3
13			     was marked for identification.)
14			MR. KLAYMAN:  Which is Linda R.

15	Tripp's response to Plaintiffs' request for
16	documents pursuant to subpoena.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18		Q	Is this a written copy of the
19	document response?
20		A	It is.
21			MR. KLAYMAN:  And along with that
22	document response was produced a privilege


				13
	1	log, which I'll ask be marked as Exhibit 4.
	2		     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 4

	3		     was marked for identification.)
	4		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5	     Q	Showing you Exhibit 4, are those
	6	documents which you have not produced subject
	7	to claim of privilege as listed on the
	8	privilege log?
	9		Is the answer yes?
10	     A	Yes, it is.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  Now, pursuant to an

12	agreement with your counsel, Mr. Zaccagnini,
13	the actual privilege documents have been sent
14	to the Court for review in camera.  Is that
15	correct, Mr. Zaccagnini?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That is correct,
17	Mr. Klayman.
18		MR. KLAYMAN:  Thank you.
19		MR. KLAYMAN:  And I'll show you

20	what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
21	Exhibit 5.  We'll call it composite Exhibit
22	5.  It consists of the documents which you


					14
	1	produced today.
	2			     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 5

	3			     was marked for identification.)
	4			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5		Q	Showing you Exhibit 5, the first

	6	document produced as part of this composite
	7	exhibit is a letter from the Inspector-
	8	General to Anthony Zaccagnini on August 4,
	9	1998, consisting of two pages signed by

10	Shirley J. Landes, chief; is that correct?
11		A	Yes, that's correct.
12		Q	The second document is a letter
13	from Semmes Bowen & Semmes of July 10, 1998,
14	to the Inspector-General, care of Leonard

15	Trahan Junior, from Anthony Zaccagnini; is
16	that correct?
17		A	That's correct.
18		Q	The third document attached as part
19	of composite Exhibit 5 is a letter of March
20	19, 1998, also stamped March 23, 1998,

21	presumably a date of receipt, from the
22	Inspector-General to Anthony Zaccagnini


					15
	1	signed by Leonard Trahan Junior which

	2	contains certain attachments; is that
	3	correct?
	4			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I don't believe
	5	there are any attachments to that letter.
	6			MR. KLAYMAN:  Those are not
	7	attachments.  That's a separate document.
	8			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

	9		Q	So there's one page.  You've seen
10	that letter that you've produced here today?
11		A	A letter with a FOIA sheet attached
12	to it, yes.
13		Q	The second page is a FOIA sheet.
14	Following that are photographs, two
15	photographs.  Is that of Clifford Bernath?
16		A	Yes, it is.
17		Q	Next is one photograph with
18	Clifford Bernath with a microphone, that's
19	the next document?

20		A	It is.
21		Q	And then there appears to be a
22	biography of Clifford Bernath, principal


					16
	1	deputy assistant secretary, Defense Public
	2	Affairs?
	3		A	That's correct.
	4		Q	And then a letter to Strom Thurmond

	5	consisting of ten pages of text and one page
	6	of an organogram styled "Office of the
	7	Assistant to the Secretary of Defense, Public
	8	Affairs"; is that correct that?
	9		A	I didn't count the pages.  It ends
10	with answer 26 and a follow-on paragraph
11	signed by Ken Bacon, yes.
12		Q	Plus an organogram at the end?
13		A	Exactly.
14		Q	The next document which you
15	produced is a handwritten notation, "Linda,
16	just thought you might find this of
17	interest," with an attachment, which appears
18	to be a listing of various individuals who

19	have met an unfortunate end --
20		A	That's correct.
21		Q	During the Clinton Administration.
22	Who sent that little note to you, "just


					17
	1	thought you'd find this of interest"?
	2		A	That was the second such piece of
	3	information in that form that I received from
	4	Monica Lewinsky.
	5		Q	This is Monica Lewinsky's
	6	handwriting?
	7		A	It does not appear to be Monica
	8	Lewinsky's handwriting.
	9		Q	Do you know whose handwriting it
10	is?
11		A	I don't.  It was given to me,
12	however, by Monica Lewinsky.
13			MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Zaccagnini, is

14	this something you want to get into under
15	seal later?
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, I would
17	prefer that all that be handled under seal.
18	If you want to portion off that deposition
19	separately towards the end, I think that

20	would be advisable.
21			MR. KLAYMAN:  I can identify on the
22	record, however, who likely sent it.


					18
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	You say that Monica Lewinsky handed
	3	this to you?
	4		A	No, actually, she didn't hand it to

	5	me.  She left it as she had the -- either its
	6	predecessor or its successor, depending on
	7	the timing, which I'm unclear of as of this
	8	date, left it on my chair early a.m. prior to
	9	my arrival at my office.
10		Q	When was that, approximately?
11		A	There were two, as I've said.  One
12	was in late summer and one was in the fall
13	time frame.
14		Q	Of this year?
15		A	Prior to October of '97.
16		Q	Just to be absolutely sure, you
17	don't know whose handwriting this is?
18		A	I'm sorry.  I don't.
19		Q	What happened to the other document
20	that was left on your chair?
21		A	I don't know.  I don't know that I
22	even took it home from the Pentagon.


					19
	1		Q	Did it also contain information on
	2	people that had died in and around the
	3	Clinton Administration?
	4		A	Yeah, but it was a lengthier
	5	document.  I don't know that it had more
	6	names.  I've never counted the names, but it

	7	had other addendum, perhaps more explanation
	8	of each and every case.
	9		Q	Did you ever ask Ms. Lewinsky who
10	had provided the document?
11		A	I never asked her directly who
12	provided the document.
13		Q	Did you ask her indirectly?
14		A	Yes.
15		Q	And what did she tell you?  Well,
16	how did you ask her indirectly?
17		A	It came up in conversation when we
18	discussed the documents both times, and both
19	times it was in a conversation trying to

20	affect the outcome of a decision I had to
21	make about testifying truthfully or not in
22	the case of Kathleen Willey.


					20
	1		Q	Maybe I misunderstood, but what I'm
	2	trying to understand is how would that be

	3	indirect?  It seems that you're having a
	4	direct conversation with Ms. Lewinsky.
	5		A	I did have a direct conversation,
	6	but I did not ask her directly this doesn't
	7	look like your handwriting, who wrote it.
	8	And immediately it was instantly familiar to
	9	me as not being Ms. Lewinsky's handwriting.
10		Q	Do you know where the second
11	document is today?

12		A	I don't.  In fact, I have searched,
13	as you can well imagine.  As a matter of

14	fact, I didn't come across either one in
15	preparation for my grand jury testimony,
16	which I very much would have liked to have
17	come across, and only came across this one
18	recently.  I had thought that along with
19	other what I considered to be important

20	papers I thought that my attorney had custody
21	of all, and we have reviewed both home files
22	and files maintained in the custody of my


					21
	1	attorney, and we have not regrettably found
	2	it.
	3			MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Zaccagnini, if
	4	you'll permit me to ask this?  If you want to

	5	go on a different record, that would be fine.
	6	I'm going to save more of the detailed
	7	testimony to the end in terms of threats to
	8	make it easier.  But if I can ask this one
	9	question:
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11		Q	Did you take the providing of this
12	document, which we've just identified, as a
13	threat?
14		A	I did.
15		Q	And who did you take it as a threat
16	from?
17			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At this point,
18	Mr. Klayman I would ask that we move to --
19			MR. KLAYMAN:  Confidential?
20			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, thank you.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22		Q	Now, you are aware that in terms of


						22
	1	Plaintiffs' request that they've asked for
	2	not just traditional documents but any types
	3	of recordations of information.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At this point,

	5	Mr. Klayman, as indicated in our privilege
	6	log, we've asserted privilege to any such
	7	response to that request, and I would

	8	instruct my client neither to acknowledge the
	9	existence of any such items or comment on the
10	existence of any such items.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  Which designation is
12	that where you're asserting a privilege?
13		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I believe it's
14	number 6 and 20, if I'm not mistaken.
15		MR. KLAYMAN:  6(b)?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's correct.
17		MR. KLAYMAN:  So 6(b) would subsume
18	any tape recordings or diskettes or anything
19	of that nature?
20		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, and it's

21	similarly raised in response to requests
22	numbers 8, 19, and 20.  Anticipating the


					23
	1	scope of those questions was broader than

	2	what I'd hoped it would be and as broad as
	3	you would hope it would be, I'm raising the

	4	same privilege as to those inquiries as well.
	5			MR. KLAYMAN:  You are aware that
	6	Judge Lamberth has modified the scope of our
	7	documents request?
	8			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's correct.
	9			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10		Q	Ms. Tripp, when I refer to
11	Filegate, do you know what I'm talking about?
12		A	Yes, I do.
13		Q	What do you understand Filegate to
14	be?
15		A	I understand it to be the possible
16	illegal obtaining of the confidential FBI
17	files of individuals -- in my understanding,
18	it was individuals from the Bush White House
19	and other Republican individuals whose files
20	found their way to The White House.
21		Q	Bush and Reagan White House?
22		A	Yes.


					24
	1		Q	Is there any reference, either
	2	direct or indirect, in any documents or tape
	3	recordings or diskettes or any type of
	4	recordation which you have not produced today
	5	to Filegate?
	6		A	No, I don't believe any.
	7		Q	Did you ever discuss Filegate with
	8	Monica Lewinsky?
	9		A	Briefly.
10		Q	What was discussed?
11		A	In the late fall we discussed
12	briefly my personal framework of reference

13	having to do with issues, shall we say, that
14	I had witnessed or been exposed to during my
15	tenure at The White House.  Filegate had
16	proven to be one.
17			Needless to say, at the time I did
18	not -- I did not understand it to be Filegate
19	during my time at The White House.  It was
20	only subsequent to my departure that it

21	became known to me and helped me identify
22	what it was I had seen.


					25
	1		Q	When you say "late fall," of what
	2	year?
	3		A	'97.
	4		Q	And did this conversation take

	5	place in person or did it take place by
	6	telephone or what means?
	7		A	I really don't recall.  Most likely
	8	in person.  The vast majority of my
	9	conversations with Monica Lewinsky were in
10	person.
11		Q	And how did the issue come up?

12	Perhaps you've just described that but --
13		A	I thought I had, yeah.
14		Q	And what did you tell Ms. Lewinsky
15	about what you observed at The White House?
16		A	I told her about what I considered
17	to be unscrupulous behavior, that there

18	seemed to be no moral absolutes, and that
19	there was no sense of right or wrong, and I
20	cited Filegate as one of those instances,
21	among others.
22		Q	Did you cite any things that you


					26
	1	had observed relating to Filegate when you
	2	discussed the matter with Ms. Lewinsky?
	3		A	I don't recall to what degree of
	4	specificity I got into the conversation with

	5	Monica.  I think it was more to make a point.
	6	Filegate was one among other issues that I
	7	addressed with her during that conversation.
	8		Q	You told her that you had witnessed
	9	certain events which related to Filegate, in
10	retrospect?
11		A	I referenced the issue of Filegate
12	and said that I felt that I had personal
13	knowledge of that issue and that I believed
14	it to have been a violation.
15		Q	Did you tell her what personal
16	knowledge you had?
17		A	No.
18		Q	Have you ever relayed to anyone
19	what personal knowledge you had of Filegate?
20			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Other than
21	counsel, Mr. Klayman?
22			BY MR. KLAYMAN:


					27
	1		Q	Other than counsel and perhaps you

	2	don't want to assert the privilege on that.
	3		A	In terms of an in-depth
	4	conversation or any dialogue at all, again
	5	with specificity that would be counsel.  I

	6	discussed Filegate with Tony Snow a long time
	7	ago and in the early summer of 1996 with
	8	Lucianne Goldberg when I endeavored to write
	9	a book to expose several of the scandals that
10	I had witnessed during my time at The White
11	House and in an attempt to validate Gary
12	Aldrich's book when it was published, so it
13	was just at that time that I approached
14	Lucianne Goldberg or she approached me and we
15	discussed Filegate among many other things.
16		Q	Let's back up to Monica Lewinsky.
17	Has there ever been a communication between
18	you and Monica Lewinsky where anyone recorded
19	an issue related to Filegate in writing or in
20	any kind of recordation like tape recordings?
21		A	No.
22		Q	So this was just an oral


					28
	1	conversation, never any notations made or any
	2	recordation?
	3		A	No.  No.  I have never kept --
	4	well, I shouldn't say I have never.  I had
	5	not at that time kept notes of any kind, and
	6	that had been a conscious decision also
	7	during my tenure at The White House.
	8		Q	When was it that you discussed
	9	Filegate with Tony Snow?
10		A	Prior to the nomenclature being

11	accepted as a conventional title for the
12	issue, I had discussed it with Tony Snow.
13		Q	Was it prior to it even becoming
14	known that there was a controversy called
15	Filegate?
16		A	Precisely.
17		Q	When was that conversation,
18	approximately?
19		A	I can't give you any detailed

20	memory of the time frame.  I believe I
21	discussed some of my observations with Tony
22	Snow during the time that I was still on


					29
	1	White House staff, in confidence, and he has
	2	never betrayed that confidence.
	3		Q	So that would be prior to the time
	4	you left The White House?
	5		A	Oh, yes.
	6		Q	And when was it you left The White
	7	House?
	8		A	August '94.
	9		Q	Does that help refresh your
10	recollection as to when you had this
11	conversation with Tony?
12		A	No, because I had many -- Tony Snow
13	is a friend of mine, and we had many
14	conversations both about The White House and
15	about many other topics, and I just don't

16	remember when this conversation would have
17	taken place.  I can tell you that it had to
18	have been after May of '93 and before August
19	of '94.
20		Q	How is it you're able to pinpoint
21	it to those dates?
22		A	Because through April of '93 I was


					30
	1	working in the immediate office of the
	2	President with Bruce Lindsey, Nancy Hernreich
	3	and the President, and so I would not have
	4	been exposed at that time to this issue.
	5	However, when I made the move to the
	6	counsel's office at the request of Vince
	7	Foster and Bernie Nussbuam, it was thereafter
	8	that I became familiar with this issue.
	9			So I'm dating my possibility of
10	this conversation having taken place from the

11	earliest possible date would have been in May
12	of '94 and the last date while still employed
13	at The White House would have been August of
14	'94 and conceivably well after that when I
15	was at the Pentagon.
16		Q	And when you discussed this with
17	Tony Snow, were you there in person with Tony
18	or was it by phone?
19		A	By phone, right.
20		Q	Who called who?  Was it you calling
21	him?
22		A	No, actually, Tony almost routinely


					31
	1	called me.  Sporadically, we kept in touch.
	2		Q	Because he's a good friend?
	3		A	He is a good friend, yes.
	4		Q	And how did the issue arise with
	5	regard to what you had observed concerning a

	6	controversy later becoming known as Filegate?
	7		A	Actually, it arose from another
	8	scandal.  In my mind, our conversations about
	9	this subject actually evolved from
10	conversations having to do with something
11	else.
12		Q	Something called Travelgate?
13		A	Yes.
14		Q	And how did it arise?  Tell us what
15	you told Tony at the time.
16		A	Well, it was not in any great
17	detail because, again, I did not get into any
18	great level of specificity with Tony.  It was
19	more my impression in a generic overview of
20	the types of concerns I had but not
21	specifics.
22		Q	And what did you tell Tony


				32
	1	generally about these concerns?
	2		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you could be
	3	more specific, Mr. Klayman.  Here's
	4	Ms. Tripp's concern.  The substance of that

	5	conversation dealt primarily with the Travel
	6	Office issue.  I think it would be somewhat

	7	beyond the scope of Judge Lamberth's order to
	8	have Ms. Tripp recount her conversations

	9	relating to Travelgate, as it's commonly
10	known, but I do think that a narrowly-
11	tailored question or a narrowly-tailored

12	answer could get you what you're looking for.
13		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14	     Q	And I'm asking what was discussed
15	with regard to the issue of FBI files or
16	government files, if anything?
17	     A	That files -- I had seen files that
18	were not what White House Office of White
19	House Personnel 201 or personnel files looked
20	like on certain individuals.
21	     Q	And did you tell Tony where you saw
22	those files?


					33
	1		A	I did.
	2		Q	And where did you see them?
	3		A	Several locations, traveling in by

	4	the hand of Bill Kennedy into Vince Foster's
	5	office prior to Vince Foster's death, not
	6	exiting that office with Mr. Kennedy when he
	7	left.
	8		Q	The files not exiting?
	9		A	Right.  Again, in Vince Foster's
10	safe, which was housed in Bernie Nussbuam's
11	office but which Bernie Nussbuam probably

12	never opened.  This safe was, as I said,
13	housed and co-existed with another small
14	safe, and I think Bernie Nussbuam probably
15	never opened it.

16			I know Vince Foster had it opened
17	routinely by his assistant virtually daily,
18	but this was not opened by -- Bernie didn't
19	use the safe.  So there and in Bill Kennedy's
20	office and in Craig Livingstone's office.

21		Q	When you told Tony this, were you
22	taking any notes?


					34
	1		A	No, I was not.
	2		Q	Was there any kind of recordation
	3	of the conversation?
	4		A	No, Mr. Klayman.  I made a
	5	conscious decision, a decision I regret

	6	today, not to keep notes or a diary or
	7	journal at all during my White House tenure.
	8	I felt at that time that my duty and loyalty
	9	was to the Presidency but also and as well to
10	the incumbent and felt that that would be a
11	disloyal thing to do, precisely during
12	Travelgate, during Waco, during RTC, during
13	Vince Foster's death and its aftermath, and
14	so, yes, I made a conscious decision not to
15	and so no, I have no notes of that time
16	period.
17		Q	Did you describe anything else to
18	Mr. Snow when you had this discussion with

19	him, other than what you just described?
20		A	First of all, it was several

21	discussions over a period of many months and,
22	again, sporadically.  It wasn't a -- it


					35
	1	wasn't weekly.  It probably wasn't even
	2	monthly, but it was often enough so that we

	3	stayed in touch, and he was well aware of my
	4	concerns early on, and I'm sorry I didn't get
	5	that second part of your --
	6		Q	Was there anything else that was
	7	discussed?
	8		A	Oh, definitely, yes.
	9		Q	In this area during those various
10	conversations?
11			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Limited to file-
12	related matters.
13			THE WITNESS:  No.  No.  I'm sorry.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	When you described these files that
16	were taken by Mr. Kennedy into Mr. Foster's
17	office that he did not come out with, the

18	same files being housed in Vince Foster's
19	safe which was kept in Bernie Nussbuam's

20	office, did you advise Tony Snow which files
21	they were?
22		A	No.


					36
	1		Q	How did you know what files they
	2	were?
	3		A	First of all, I didn't know at the

	4	time what they were until I saw one of them
	5	on Vince Foster's desk, but, no, I did not at
	6	any time relay to anyone the names of the
	7	files that I saw.
	8		Q	At the time that you saw these

	9	files being carried in by Mr. Kennedy did
10	this raise concerns with you at that time?
11		A	No, not until I saw the file.  The
12	individuals who attended the meeting caused
13	me some concern, yeah, so I was curious.

14		Q	Which individuals attended the
15	meeting?
16		A	Maggie Williams on behalf of the
17	First Lady as chief of staff to the First
18	Lady, as I said, Bill Kennedy, and Maggie

19	Williams was in and out of these meetings and
20	not an attendee who remained the entire time;
21	however, she was present during the
22	particular meeting I'm referencing right now


					37
	1	when Mr. Kennedy walked in with certain
	2	files.  Catherine Cornelius, Harry, the movie
	3	producer, Thomas something or other, David

	4	Watkins, and, of course, Vince Foster, and
	5	the meeting was held in Vince Foster's
	6	office.
	7		Q	What was it about the attendance of
	8	these various people that caused you concern?
	9		A	It was a bizarre compilation of
10	folks, number one, and I asked Deb Gorham
11	what the subject of the meeting was and she
12	told me.
13		Q	When did you ask Deb Gorham that?
14	Immediately after the meeting?
15		A	No, as they filed into the meeting.
16		Q	And who is Deborah Gorham?
17		A	She was Vince Foster's assistant at
18	the time.
19		Q	And what did Deborah Gorham tell
20	you about the meeting?
21		A	She didn't tell me.  She wrote down
22	"Travel Office."


					38
	1		Q	She wrote it down on a notepad?
	2		A	Yes.
	3		Q	And why is it she wrote it down
	4	rather than responding verbally, to the best
	5	of your knowledge?
	6		A	I don't know except that the Travel
	7	Office situation was treated very, very
	8	carefully and with great discretion.  It was
	9	very quiet.
10		Q	And it was your impression that she

11	didn't want to say verbally because this was
12	a hush-hush matter?  Was that your
13	impression?
14		A	I was standing by her desk when I
15	asked the question, and she wrote it down, so
16	apparently so.
17		Q	And was her desk located in close
18	proximity to the office where the meeting was
19	held?
20		A	All of our desks were.  Bernie's
21	office was directly adjacent to Vince
22	Foster's and then Bernie's secretary, Betsy


					39
	1	Pond, and Deb Gorham, Vince's assistant, were
	2	opposite one another.  My desk was behind
	3	them, and we had a staff assistant for
	4	correspondence whose desk was in the rear of
	5	the office.
	6		Q	And this meeting took place in
	7	Vince Foster's office?
	8		A	It did.  It was one of many.
	9		Q	Most meetings on this issue took
10	place in Vince Foster's office?
11		A	Well, let me just say that the

12	meetings of which I was aware having to do
13	with the Travel Office took place in Vince
14	Foster's office and Vince Foster seldom left
15	to go to meetings outside our office if they
16	were held in the Old EOB and involved other
17	members of the counsel staff.
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  We object to the
19	scope of the inquiry going into the Travel
20	Office for the record per the judge's order.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22		Q	Was there anything else that


					40
	1	Ms. Gorham told you about the meeting?
	2		A	Again, Travel Office -- can I --
	3		Q	Is that all she wrote down?
	4		A	No.
	5			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Anything other
	6	than Travel Office?
	7			THE WITNESS:  Well, yeah, we had
	8	conversations but it's about the Travel
	9	Office.
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Then I would
11	caution the witness not to respond to that

12	part of the inquiry because I believe it's
13	beyond the scope of the judge's order.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	Let me do a voir dire to see if we
16	can focus it a bit more narrowly here.  It's
17	quite clear that the issue of files is
18	involved.  Did Ms. Gorham mention anything to
19	you about files that were being taken into
20	that office?
21		A	She didn't use the word "files."
22		Q	What word did she use?


					41
	1		A	Later, after a subsequent meeting,

	2	she said -- she referenced a file I had seen
	3	on Vince Foster's desk the day of the meeting
	4	I just spoke of.
	5		Q	You had mentioned to her that you
	6	had seen a file on Vince Foster's desk?
	7		A	That's right.
	8		Q	Did you see that file the same day
	9	of the meeting?

10		A	I did.
11		Q	How did it occur that you got to
12	see the file that was on Vince Foster's desk

13	the day of the meeting you've just described?
14		A	Deb Gorham was showing me two
15	photos in Vince Foster's office.  One was of
16	-- if I recall correctly, Mr. Foster and his
17	wife on a boat, and the other -- I believe it
18	was at that time that she showed me the photo
19	of the President and Vince Foster in
20	Ms. Mary's kindergarten class in Little Rock
21	or Hope, Arkansas, somewhere.
22		Q	Who's Ms. Mary?


					42
	1		A	I'm assuming it was his teacher.
	2	I'm not sure.  That was how she described it

	3	to me.  And it was at that time the meeting
	4	had just ended, what appeared to be what
	5	Mr. Kennedy had brought in and not left with
	6	was still on Mr. Foster's desk, and I can
	7	only tell you what my observations were, and
	8	they looked to be the same -- the same that
	9	Mr. Kennedy had had in his hand, and I did
10	see one name, and I only saw a last name.  I
11	didn't see a first name.
12		Q	What name did you see?
13		A	Dale.
14		Q	D-a-l-e?
15		A	That's correct.

16		Q	Did you take that file to relate to
17	Billy Dale?
18		A	I did.
19		Q	And what did the file look like?

20		A	It did not look like a White House
21	personnel file of which I am familiar and
22	which has a commonality to all other


					43
	1	personnel files that The White House
	2	maintains in its White House Office of
	3	Personnel as opposed to Presidential
	4	personnel.
	5		Q	What was the color of the file?
	6		A	I don't recall.  I can tell you the
	7	only recollection I have at this point in
	8	time about color at all was that Mr. Kennedy
	9	was carrying a red well -- is that what

10	they're called? -- in one arm and loose on
11	the other and the red well wasn't closed and
12	there were files in there, and the files that
13	were in the red well, the folders had the
14	same color as the ones he was carrying, and
15	that's all I remember.
16		Q	Have you ever seen information that
17	came from the FBI to The White House?
18		A	You mean an open file?  Yes, but I
19	didn't know at the time that's what I was

20	seeing.  I didn't know the day that I'm
21	telling you I saw the Dale file and I guess
22	one could argue that I still don't know what


					44
	1	it was.  I can tell you what it wasn't.
	2		Q	What wasn't it?
	3		A	It was not the 201 or whatever the

	4	nomenclature is for a personnel file at The
	5	White House, and my best sense is that it was
	6	not the files that Craig Livingstone
	7	legitimately maintained in his office for
	8	security clearance purposes.  That was
	9	completely different.
10		Q	For internal White House security
11	purposes?
12		A	Yeah.  The security background
13	questionnaire forms that are extensive, and
14	those had a different look to them than this.
15		Q	Which are filled out by The White
16	House?
17		A	Well, yes, exactly.  They're filled
18	out by The White House and the contents by
19	White House staff and others.
20		Q	Now, did you subsequently see after
21	that event that day, when you noticed a file
22	concerning Mr. Dale on Mr. Foster's desk,


					45
	1	files that had come over from the FBI to The
	2	White House?
	3		A	I don't know what I saw.  I can
	4	tell you what --
	5		Q	I'm sorry.  I don't mean at that
	6	time, but did you later see, later --
	7		A	Those same files?
	8		Q	Files that came over from the FBI
	9	as part of FBI --
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm sorry to
11	interrupt you.  If I may try to help clarify
12	this matter, I'm not sure Mrs. Tripp can
13	identify the origin of these files and maybe

14	that's what causing some confusion; is that
15	correct?
16			THE WITNESS:  That's correct.

17			MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't want to
18	presume that until I have the opportunity to
19	ask the questions, Mr. Zaccagnini.
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	What I'm trying to ask you is that
22	those files, the way they appeared when you


					46
	1	saw that Billy Dale file on Foster's desk,

	2	did it look similar to files that you saw
	3	later on, when you worked in The White House
	4	Counsel's Office?
	5		A	Oh, I'm sorry.  I understand your
	6	question now.  Actually, let me just correct
	7	one thing.  I don't know that it was Billy
	8	Dale's file.  I don't know that with any

	9	degree of certainty.  I can tell you that was
10	my assumption and I'm fairly confident it was
11	an accurate assumption based on the timing

12	and subsequent events; however, yes, I did
13	see other similar files in great number in
14	other locations within The White House, yes.

15		Q	And did you subsequently learn that
16	those other similar files were files obtained
17	from the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
18		A	I was told so, yes.
19		Q	So the appearance of the Dale file
20	that you saw on Foster's desk looked like
21	files you later saw in The White House
22	Counsel's Office from the FBI?


					47
	1		A	Except that I had no firsthand
	2	knowledge they were from the FBI.  I was told
	3	they were FBI files by an individual in the
	4	Counsel's Office, and those were files that I
	5	had seen in Bill Kennedy's office.
	6		Q	These files you saw later that
	7	looked like the Dale file you saw on Foster's
	8	desk?
	9		A	Exactly, and subsequently in Vince
10	Foster's safe.
11		Q	Who told you that the files you saw
12	later in Bill Kennedy's office were FBI
13	files?
14		A	Betsy Pond, who had since been
15	reassigned to Bill Kennedy as Deb Gorham had

16	prior to her departure from The White House.
17		Q	Now, when you had these series of
18	discussions with Mr. Snow, did he offer an
19	opinion as to what you saw on Vince Foster's
20	desk?
21		A	I didn't tell him what I saw on

22	Vince Foster's desk.  I told him about my


					48
	1	concerns.  I never identified files for Tony.

	2		Q	And specifically what concerns did
	3	you tell him about?
	4		A	I was concerned about guilt
	5	feelings I had, and these were significant to
	6	me, that I had prior knowledge -- that I had
	7	prior knowledge about the impending firing of
	8	the Travel Office and didn't warn the people
	9	over there, so I discussed that with Tony at
10	great length.
11		Q	Did there come a point in time when
12	you discussed with Tony an impression that
13	these files that you had seen, this file that
14	you had seen in Foster's office labeled
15	"Dale," was an FBI file?
16		A	Again, not with any -- I mean only
17	that I had seen files which led me to believe
18	that there had been an effort to, at the

19	highest levels, in my opinion, to remove
20	Billy Dale and his staff members.  I didn't
21	tell him I had seen Billy Dale's file and I
22	to this day don't know that I did, as I've


					49
	1	previously said.
	2		Q	But at some point you had told Tony
	3	Snow that you believed you saw FBI files
	4	of --
	5		A	Oh, yes, absolutely.  I still
	6	believe I did.
	7		Q	And that you believe that that file

	8	you saw on Foster's desk was an FBI file with
	9	Billy Dale?
10		A	I do believe that, yes.
11		Q	And you told Tony that?
12		A	I did -- no, excuse me.  That I saw
13	files on Vince Foster's desk and in his safe.
14	I did not identify the name.
15		Q	And that you saw what you

16	subsequently believed were FBI files?
17		A	Correct.
18		Q	And when did you tell Tony that?
19		A	Following the Travel Office mass
20	firing but I can't be any more specific than
21	that.
22		Q	Did Tony advise you to take any


					50
	1	action, having seen these files?
	2		A	Repeatedly.
	3		Q	What did he advise you to do?
	4		A	To write a book.
	5		Q	Did he advise you to go to any
	6	authorities?
	7		A	No.  He kept saying -- remember,

	8	Filegate, as it has since become known, was
	9	not a word that any of us knew.  I didn't
10	know at that time that if The White House did
11	in fact have FBI files that that would have
12	been an egregious decision on their part to
13	obtain them.  These were things that I just
14	found of concern to me because as a
15	careerist, as someone who was an apolitical
16	staff member, I found it somewhat
17	threatening.
18			My personal framework of reference
19	in the Clinton White House was not a positive
20	one when it came to the fate of White House
21	permanent staff who had been there in excess
22	of 20-plus years and were just unceremonious-


					51
	1	ly told to leave that day.  So I had concerns

	2	that didn't necessarily have to do with legal
	3	concerns.  These were concerns that were of a
	4	personal nature as opposed to a righteous
	5	legal.
	6		Q	Now, you say attending that meeting
	7	that you described previously with Mr. Foster
	8	was a Catherine Cornelius?
	9		A	Correct.
10		Q	Who was Catherine Cornelius in
11	terms of her position?
12		A	Catherine Cornelius at that time

13	was working in David Watkins' office in the
14	basement of the White House, and I had come
15	to know both she and Clarissa Cerda rather
16	well during their time in that office,
17	actually, from the first week, I believe, of
18	the first administration, and I'm trying to

19	think -- I actually had heard about -- excuse
20	me one moment.
21			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
22			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Could you repeat


					52
	1	the question again, Mr. Klayman?
	2			MR. KLAYMAN:  Who did she
	3	understand Catherine Cornelius to be?
	4			THE WITNESS:  Catherine Cornelius

	5	told me she was a cousin of the President.
	6			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7		Q	And what was her title at The White
	8	House at the time?
	9		A	I don't know her title.  I think at
10	the time there were no titles.  This was
11	early on.  She had a desk in David Watkins'
12	outer office and told me that she was working
13	on a joint project with Clarissa Cerda at

14	that at the direction of David Watkins in
15	that office.
16		Q	And do you know what the joint
17	project was?
18		A	I do.
19		Q	What was it?
20		A	The proposed firing of the Travel
21	Office and the reorganization of that Travel
22	Office once they had been removed with


				53
	1	Catherine Cornelius heading that office and

	2	an organization from Arkansas World comes to
	3	mind to take over the function of the Travel
	4	Office.
	5		MS. SHAPIRO:  I'd just register an
	6	objection to further inquiry into the firing
	7	of Travel Office personnel, which is not at
	8	issue in this deposition.
	9		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10	     Q	And David Watkins, what did you
11	understand his position to be at the time of
12	that meeting?
13	     A	I didn't know what any of their
14	positions at the time of that meeting were.
15	I only know that it was described to me as a
16	Travel Office meeting, and when I reflected
17	upon the extensive conversations I had had
18	with both Clarissa Cerda and Catherine

19	Cornelius over the preceding couple of
20	months, I was able to pretty much piece

21	together what I anticipated was happening,
22	and it proved to be true.


				54
	1	     Q	Did you subsequently come to know
	2	what David Watkins' position and job
	3	responsibilities were at the time of the
	4	meeting?
	5	     A	Oh, excuse me.  I thought you were

	6	asking a different question.  I was aware of
	7	what his title and job responsibilities were
	8	at the time of the meeting.  I was a little
	9	fuzzy on why he would have been at a Travel
10	Office meeting until I pieced together in my
11	mind what I had been told earlier.
12	     Q	What were they at the time of the
13	meeting?
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  What were
15	Mr. Watkins' job title and responsibilities?
16		MR. KLAYMAN:  Right.
17		THE WITNESS:  I don't remember
18	right now.  Director of administration,
19	maybe, or White House something or other.  I
20	don't know.  It was sort of an operations

21	manager, as I understood it.  He had a far
22	more dignified title.


					55
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	And you later became aware that he
	3	had involvement in the Travel Office?
	4			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
	5			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	6		Q	Just for identification.
	7		A	Yes.
	8		Q	How did you become aware of that?
	9			MS. SHAPIRO:  Same objection.
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

11		Q	You can respond.
12		A	Again through several sources,
13	Catherine Cornelius, Clarissa Cerda, Deb
14	Gorham, and personal observations.

15		Q	And also attending that meeting you
16	stated was a Hollywood producer?
17		A	Yes.
18		Q	Harry Thomasson?
19		A	Yes.
20		Q	Was his wife there, Susan
21	Bloodworth-Thomas?
22		A	I did not see her, no, she did not


					56
	1	come to that meeting.
	2		Q	You recognized him as a Hollywood
	3	producer at the time?
	4		A	I didn't, actually.  I had no idea

	5	who he was.  He was sporting a residence blue
	6	pass and he was introduced to me as a
	7	Hollywood producer.  That seemed to be part
	8	of his name.
	9		Q	Did he come in with a director's
10	chair or hat or anything like that?
11		A	Shades.
12		Q	Have you ever seen him without
13	shades?
14		A	I don't remember.
15		Q	When did you become aware that he
16	was a Hollywood producer?
17		A	Actually, that day, the day and the
18	time when we were introduced, and I later

19	learn that he maintained an office in the
20	residence or at least the use of a desk in
21	the residence and also camped out frequently
22	in the -- I'm sorry, I can't recall the name


					57
	1	of David Watkins' office in the basement of

	2	the West Wing, but I do know that they told
	3	me that he routinely set up there and used a
	4	phone there.
	5		Q	Who told you that he was a
	6	Hollywood producer later in the day or how
	7	did you learn specifically?
	8		A	I don't recall if I was introduced
	9	to him as he went into the meeting or coming
10	out.  It was during that time frame that I
11	was introduced to him; however, I was told
12	the same day that he was a Hollywood
13	producer, the same day that I met him, which
14	was the day of that meeting.
15		Q	You don't remember who told you
16	that?
17		A	It might have been Deb Coyle.  I
18	don't know.  I don't remember.

19		Q	Who was Deb Coyle?
20		A	Her official title was personal
21	secretary to the President as opposed to

22	executive secretary to the President, which


					58
	1	at that time was Betty Curry's title, but for

	2	all intents and purposes Deb worked primarily
	3	for Bruce Lindsey.
	4		Q	And then, of course, there was
	5	Vince Foster in the meeting.  You knew who he
	6	was at that time?
	7		A	Yes, I did.
	8		Q	And when did that meeting take
	9	place, approximately?
10		A	A very short time prior to the
11	Travel Office being fired.
12		Q	When you saw this file labeled
13	"Dale" on Mr. Foster's desk, did you see any
14	other files?
15		A	There were other files, and the red
16	well was still next to them with a couple of
17	files still in it.
18		Q	About how many files did you see?
19		A	Maybe four or five.  I don't know.
20	There were, like, two -- there was more than
21	one next to the Dale file.  I did not see the
22	name because the Dale file obliterated the


					59
	1	part where a name could be seen.  And then
	2	several in the red well still.
	3		Q	And --
	4		A	Vince Foster, let me just state,
	5	kept an extremely neat, uncluttered desk, so
	6	-- and Deb Gorham was fastidious about
	7	maintaining it that way, so there were not

	8	many file folders just strewn about, just
	9	these.
10		Q	It was Vince Foster's practice to
11	only have on his desk that which he was
12	working on?
13		A	Always.  It very much impressed me
14	because I'm so much the opposite.
15		Q	Did you ever discuss that with
16	Mr. Foster?
17		A	Often.
18		Q	His neatness?
19		A	Often.
20		Q	Did he tell you that was something
21	he learned at the Rose Law Firm, to be neat
22	and organized?


					60
	1		A	He said that he had always been

	2	neat and organized and found it to be the
	3	only way that he could function profession-
	4	ally.  He did not work well in a cluttered
	5	environment.
	6		Q	Mr. Foster was a litigation
	7	attorney, was he not?
	8		A	I believe so but I'm sorry.  I'm
	9	really not familiar with his law practice
10	during his years at the Rose Law Firm.
11		Q	I was just wondering whether he

12	told you that the organization was necessary
13	for a litigation lawyer to function?
14			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
15	Relevancy.
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You may answer.
17			THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  I'm sorry.  I
18	really don't recall any -- I don't think we
19	sort of got into an in-depth conversation
20	about the matter, but he marveled at the way
21	I operated and I marveled at the way he
22	operated.


					61
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	These other files that you saw, the
	3	four or five others, were of similar
	4	appearance?
	5		A	Yes.
	6		Q	In terms of their folders?
	7		A	Yes.
	8		Q	And in terms of the red wells that
	9	they were contained in?
10		A	I saw one red well.  There was a
11	commonality to all of them, and I to this day

12	cannot tell you what color they were.  They
13	weren't checkered or polka-dotted as I
14	recall.  They were a solid color, as I
15	recall.
16		Q	Now, you said you later saw files
17	coming to you from the FBI which looked

18	similar to the files you saw in Foster's
19	office?
20		A	Right.
21		Q	And when did you see those other
22	files, the later files that looked similar to


					62
	1	the files in Foster's office the day of this
	2	particular meeting?
	3		A	Well, actually, I saw that very
	4	file again.
	5		Q	Oh, when did you see that other
	6	file again?
	7		A	I can't give you a specific date.

	8	It was certainly following the date that I
	9	saw it in Vince Foster's office and I saw it
10	subsequently in Vince Foster's safe in Bernie
11	Nussbuam's office with Deborah Gorham.
12		Q	How did you come upon that file in
13	Vince Foster's safe in Bernie Nussbuam's
14	office?
15		A	As I've stated previously, I don't
16	recall Bernie Nussbuam ever using that safe.
17	I had occasion -- I had the combination, Deb
18	Gorham had the combination, and Betsy Pond
19	had the combination.  Bernie had the
20	combination, and it's my opinion that he most
21	likely would have died if it meant life or

22	death to get into the safe depending on his


				63
	1	ability to get into the safe.  He could not

	2	have done it.  Deborah, however, was quick
	3	and got into it immediately.  I was always

	4	hindered by the fact that it was unlike other
	5	safes that I had used in the Department of
	6	Army, so I never could get it right, so I
	7	used to call Anthony Marceca to come open it
	8	for me.
	9	     Q	Good choice.
10	     A	I thought so at the time; however,
11	this particular day Bernie had received
12	something from the National Security Council,
13	and I'm sorry I don't remember what it was,
14	and it needed to be prior to the end of the
15	day -- I'm going blank.  What do you call it?
16	Locked in the safe.
17		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Secured?
18		THE WITNESS:  Yes, secured, needed
19	to be secured.  And while this was generally
20	not something that seemed to concern people
21	one way or another in the Clinton White

22	House, this particular document Bernie


					64
	1	preferred that we lock up.  So I couldn't

	2	open the safe.  Deborah Gorham hadn't come
	3	back into the office.  I called Tony Marceca.
	4	He was not able to come over.  Deborah came
	5	back.
	6			We together went in, she opened the
	7	safe, I tried to find a place to put Bernie's
	8	National Security folder, and there was not a
	9	lot of room because all these other files

10	were in there.  Knowing that Bernie didn't
11	use it routinely, I was trying to find the
12	logical place to put it, and that's when I
13	saw the Dale file.

14		Q	Well, maybe I missed it, but why is
15	it you wanted to get into the safe?
16		A	To secure the National Security
17	Council document.
18		Q	I see.  It wasn't to get this
19	particular file, the Dale file?
20		A	It was not to retrieve at all.  It
21	was to secure a document, thing.
22		Q	Did Anthony Marceca know the


					65
	1	combination of this safe?
	2		A	He did.
	3		Q	How were the combinations provided

	4	to people such that they would know them on
	5	this safe?
	6			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you know.
	7			THE WITNESS:  I do know.  I don't
	8	know from whence the combinations came.  I do
	9	know that we were given the combination by

10	the folks in Craig Livingstone's office, and
11	we committed it to memory except Betsy Pond,
12	who wrote it down and wrote the words "safe
13	combination" and taped it to the inside
14	drawer of her desk, so so much for secure
15	safes.
16		Q	Why is it that Vince Foster's safe
17	was kept in Bernie Nussbuam's office?
18		A	Well, I can only speculate.  I can
19	be quite certain it's because of space
20	constraints.  Vince Foster had a tiny little
21	office with barely enough room to seat --
22	well, he certainly couldn't seat your quorum


					66
	1	here today.  I mean, tiny, and Bernie
	2	Nussbuam had a spacious office with plenty of

	3	room and I believe safes that had been there.
	4		Q	Was Nussbuam's office located
	5	adjacent to Vince Foster's office?
	6		A	Yes.
	7		Q	Right next to each other?
	8		A	Exactly.
	9		Q	Now, when you got into that safe,
10	who was it that actually opened the safe?
11		A	Deborah Gorham.
12		Q	And who was there when it was
13	opened?
14		A	Deborah Gorham and myself.
15		Q	And did Deborah Gorham observe
16	everything that you observed?
17		A	I believe so.
18		Q	And what did you observe?  What was
19	in that safe besides this National Security
20	information?
21		A	Let me also state that Deborah
22	Gorham maintained that safe.  She maintained


					67
	1	those files for Vince Foster, so she was

	2	completely familiar with the files in the
	3	safe.  So, as I was going through it looking
	4	for a place for Bernie's file, she was going
	5	through it to sort of section off a portion
	6	of the safe, and she was -- seemed to be
	7	familiar with the files that were in there.
	8	This is mine, this is mine, this is mine.
	9		Q	When she said "mine," what did you
10	take that to mean?
11		A	Files belonging to Vince Foster.
12		Q	Because she was Vince Foster's

13	secretary?
14		A	Yes.
15		Q	At the time you were Bernie
16	Nussbuam's secretary?
17		A	No.
18		Q	What were you at the time?
19		A	Betsy Pond was Bernie's secretary.
20	I was his executive assistant.
21		Q	What was the difference between the
22	two job functions?


					68
	1		A	Well, they were completely
	2	different.
	3		Q	At that time?
	4		A	Yes.  Yes.  I was hired and
	5	interviewed by Vince Foster, Bernie Nussbuam,
	6	and Steve Neuwirth and actually asked
	7	repeatedly to take a position they were going

	8	to create in the Counsel's Office, that they
	9	had two secretaries, one to serve as an
10	executive secretary to each of the
11	principals, but the need for someone with
12	overall White House experience who could act
13	as press liaison, senior staff liaison, and
14	actually someone to oversee the outside
15	office, and I accepted that position, also
16	handled a great deal of the correspondence in
17	terms of writing for Bernie, routine
18	correspondence not of a legal nature.
19		Q	And Ms. Pond was a traditional
20	secretary, generally?
21		A	Yeah, she essentially maintained
22	his correspondence files, was responsible for


					69
	1	the extensive telephone log and his schedule

	2	of daily appointments and I believe his White
	3	House checking account.
	4		Q	At the time of this opening of the
	5	safe, you were highly regarded in that office
	6	based upon statements made to you, correct,
	7	for your work?
	8		A	Revisionist history seems to

	9	reflect otherwise but at the time, yes.
10		Q	That's what people were telling
11	you, that you were doing a good job?
12			MS. SHAPIRO:  Object to the form.

13			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You can answer the
14	question.
15			THE WITNESS:  Well, they promoted
16	me and were extremely complimentary, yes.

17	They continued to give me increasingly
18	sensitive positions and areas of
19	responsibility, so, yes, I believed I was
20	highly regarded there.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22		Q	We'll get into that in greater


				70
	1	depth later, but for right now what I'm
	2	trying to get at is why were you present at
	3	the opening of the safe dealing with the

	4	national security information contained
	5	therein?  What was it about your job function
	6	and responsibility?
	7	     A	Okay, Bernie had received a
	8	National Security Council packet which I
	9	believe he had reviewed and either had not
10	finished reviewing or wanted to retain.  For
11	whatever reason it needed to be secured.  It
12	would not have been anybody else in the outer
13	office's job to secure that.  It would have
14	been my responsibility to see to it that it
15	was and I did so.
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  May I interrupt
17	just one second to speak to my client?
18		(Witness conferred with counsel)
19		THE WITNESS:  And I was asked to do
20	so.
21		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22	     Q	Who asked you to do so?


					71
	1		A	Mr. Nussbuam.
	2		Q	Now, when you both opened that

	3	safe, and forgive me if I'm going back --
	4		A	Deborah Gorham opened the safe.

	5		Q	Excuse me.  Deborah Gorham opened
	6	the safe but you were present?

	7		A	Right, I was present.
	8		Q	And you both went through the
	9	contents of that safe correct?
10		A	Mm-hmm, in a very cursory way.  It
11	was more or less to find space.  It was a
12	little safe.
13		Q	Tell me everything that you
14	observed.
15		A	Files.  The only one that I
16	remember with any degree of specificity again
17	is the one which said "Dale" which was the
18	same file I had seen on Mr. Foster's desk
19	days prior.
20		Q	Were those other four or five files
21	that looked like the Dale file you saw on
22	Foster's desk also in this safe?


					72
	1		A	They appeared to have that
	2	commonality that the others had but I can't
	3	say because I didn't see names.  I didn't
	4	look for names.
	5		Q	But it struck you it was the same
	6	grouping of files you had seen the day of
	7	that meeting in Foster's office?

	8		A	It struck me so, yes.
	9		Q	Did you see anything else in that
10	safe?
11		A	Yeah, I did see other things in
12	that safe.  I just can't tell you whether it
13	was that day or not.  I'm sorry.  My degree
14	of recollection in terms of specifics is

15	somewhat fuzzy.  I did have access to that
16	safe on many other occasions and at those
17	times also saw files.
18		Q	On other occasions what files did
19	you see?
20		A	Bill Kennedy's file was housed in
21	that safe for an extended period of time.
22		Q	And when was that that you first


					73
	1	noticed Bill Kennedy's file?
	2		A	Later, but, I'm sorry, I can't date
	3	the time frame.
	4		Q	Roughly speaking.  Months?  Years?
	5		A	Well, that year.  I'm sorry.  I

	6	just don't know.  I don't remember.  There
	7	was a lot going on in the Counsel's Office
	8	during that time frame.
	9		Q	And what year was that, again?
10		A	1993.

11		Q	And did Bill Kennedy's file look of
12	a similar composition to the Dale file you
13	saw?
14		A	It did not.
15		Q	It was a different type of file?
16		A	Yes.
17		Q	Did you identify it as a particular
18	type of file when you saw it or thereafter?
19		A	It looked to be a compilation of

20	several different types of files is the
21	best --
22		Q	And what compilation did it strike


				74
	1	you?
	2	     A	It looked like a file that -- well,

	3	actually it was relatively thick as compared
	4	to the others, very thick, and it looked like
	5	a combination security White House personnel
	6	and other, financial even.  It just looked

	7	like a very extensive personal file on Bill
	8	Kennedy.
	9	     Q	What other kinds of files did you
10	see in that particular safe in Bernie

11	Nussbuam's office, Mr. Foster's safe?
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  I'm just going to
13	caution the witness.
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If I can consult
15	with the witness.
16		MR. KLAYMAN:  Is Ms. Shapiro
17	representing Ms. Tripp?
18		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  No, not at all.  I
19	want to speak to Ms. Tripp about not
20	divulging any information that might be vital
21	to National Security with respect to the

22	contents of that safe.  I just want to get


					75
	1	from her if that's going to be her intended
	2	answer.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  Is Ms. Shapiro
	4	consulting with you?
	5		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Not at all.
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  Because we would
	7	object to that.
	8		MS. SHAPIRO:  You would object to

	9	me consulting with counsel for the witness?
10		MR. KLAYMAN:  With the witness.
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  I don't intend to
12	consult with the witness.

13		     (Witness conferred with counsel)
14		THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  Could you
15	just repeat the last portion?
16		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17	     Q	What other documents did you see in
18	that safe, documents or things?
19	     A	In I'm not mistaken, there was a

20	file having to do with Wachtell, Lipton in
21	New York.
22		MS. SHAPIRO:  We're going to have


					76
	1	to take a break because if there's
	2	information that's potentially privileged
	3	that she cannot divulge, then we would
	4	instruct her not to divulge that, but in
	5	order to resolve it I would like to consult
	6	with counsel for the witness to determine

	7	whether there is such information that we
	8	need to assert as privilege.
	9		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll work backwards
10	before you consult.
11		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  For the record --
12		THE WITNESS:  I need a break,
13	though.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm going to ask the
15	questions in a different way to exclude any
16	information that may be outside what I'm
17	looking for here which may lead to relevant
18	evidence.
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's fine.
20	Let's take a break.
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  And then we can get
22	into those other things later once I get


				77
	1	that.
	2		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Going off video
	3	record at 11:33.
	4		     (Recess)
	5		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
	6	video record at 11:46.
	7		MS. SHAPIRO:  I'd like to just say
	8	two things before we proceed.  I want to
	9	repeat what I told Mr. Zaccagnini during the
10	break, which is that, if there are files or
11	other things in the safe that pertain to
12	attorney-client matters or other privileged

13	matters, that we would instruct the witness
14	not to divulge those.  She's free to testify
15	with respect to any files in the safe that
16	looked to her or looked like the sort of

17	files that she's testified about.
18		The second thing is, as

19	Mr. Zaccagnini said at the outset of the
20	deposition, he's available on Friday and is
21	agreeable to producing Ms. Tripp on Friday
22	for cross-examination.  We would like to be


					78
	1	able to inform the court that because the
	2	witness has voluntarily agreed to appear we
	3	don't need to appear before the court
	4	tomorrow morning for a hearing, so we'd like
	5	to get the agreement to that so we can so

	6	advise the court unless you don't plan on
	7	going the full six hours.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's see what
	9	happens.  Obviously, we want to have

10	something to say at that hearing, too.
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  Just so that we know
12	for our purposes --
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  There may be other
14	reasons for the hearing.  For instance, I

15	don't want to get into a long discussion
16	here, but Ms. Tripp does have her own counsel
17	and your objections may or may not be

18	objections which her counsel wishes to
19	assert.
20		MS. SHAPIRO:  That's right.
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  There is obviously a
22	situation here with regard to the FBI file


					79
	1	matter that may give rise to certain issues

	2	that deal with whether your privileges are
	3	valid because the privilege can't shield any
	4	criminal conduct.  These are the kinds of
	5	things we may need to discuss with the court,
	6	so I'm just going to reserve on whether there
	7	will be no hearing.
	8		MS. SHAPIRO:  It's my understanding
	9	that Mr. Zaccagnini's not available tomorrow.
10		MR. KLAYMAN:  We don't need to
11	clutter the record right now.  Let's just
12	take it under advisement.
13		MS. SHAPIRO:  I'd like to just note
14	that we'd like to advise the court while it's
15	there today before the end of the day whether
16	we need to be there tomorrow.
17		MR. KLAYMAN:  Certainly.  I would
18	appreciate you're not instructing Ms. Tripp
19	on what she can and can't do.
20		MS. SHAPIRO:  She's free to ignore
21	the instruction, but we are entitled to
22	assert privileges that are our privileges to


				80
	1	assert.
	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not going to
	3	quibble with you, Ms. Shapiro.  You'll do so

	4	at the appropriate time and place.  We've had
	5	a number of instances here where counsel have
	6	jumped in and made certain statements that
	7	have affected testimonies.
	8		MS. SHAPIRO:  I haven't done
	9	anything other than say that, as I mentioned
10	to Mr. Zaccagnini, we will protect attorney-
11	client privilege and other legitimate
12	privileges.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  I appreciate the use
14	of the word "legitimate."
15		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16	     Q	Ms. Tripp, you previously testified
17	that you observed certain things in the safe.
18	Now, what other kinds of files did you see in
19	the safe other than the national security
20	information and other than this Dale file and
21	related files that you previously testified
22	to?


					81
	1			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  And at this point,
	2	Mr. Klayman, if I can, I would caution
	3	Ms. Tripp not to divulge any information
	4	related to matters outside the scope of this
	5	deposition, which I believe to be the
	6	Filegate matter.
	7			THE WITNESS:  In that regard and
	8	with those constraints, I will say that there

	9	were several files which appeared to be very
10	similar if not duplicative of the Dale file,
11	more than what I had seen in Mr. Foster's
12	office the day I saw the Dale file.
13		Q	About how many of those files did
14	you see?
15		A	Several more.

16		Q	Ten, twenty?
17		A	I'm sorry.  I can't quantify.
18	Maybe -- it was a good four or five inches,
19	perhaps, of file space.
20		Q	And how thick was the Dale file,
21	roughly speaking?
22		A	Not nearly as thick as


					82
	1	Mr. Kennedy's file at all, which was a
	2	different type of file.
	3		Q	If you had to put a size to it in
	4	inches, quarter of an inch, eighth of an
	5	inch?
	6		A	I'm very, very poor at measure-
	7	ments.
	8		Q	Just roughly speaking.
	9		A	Relatively thin.
10		Q	So when you say you saw four to six

11	inches worth of additional files that looked
12	similar to the Dale file, that would maybe
13	amount to somewhere between ten and twenty
14	additional files?
15		A	It's hard for me to --
16		Q	Just roughly.
17			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm not going to
18	let you speculate.  If you have a number in
19	mind, that's fine.
20			THE WITNESS:  I can't tell you.

21	Several.  I remember an impression of several
22	more that were more than what I had seen on


					83
	1	Mr. Foster's desk, but I'm sorry I just -- I

	2	can't tell you a number.  I just didn't think
	3	to count.
	4			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5		Q	Now, with regard to those files,
	6	did there come a point in time when you asked
	7	anybody about what this Dale file was about?
	8		A	Well, months later, when Betsy Pond
	9	had been -- I believe at that point Deb
10	Gorham had left The White House staff.  She
11	had ended her tenure at The White House as an
12	assistant to Bill Kennedy.  She left and
13	Betsy took on that position when she was
14	removed from the West Wing and again placed
15	in the same desk and position that Deb Gorham
16	had held for a short period, and it was on
17	one of my trips to Bill Kennedy's office that
18	Betsy Pond identified those files that I had
19	seen in Bill Kennedy's office as FBI files.
20		Q	And how did Deb Gorham identify the
21	files as FBI files?
22		A	I'm sorry.  If I said Deb Gorham, I


					84
	1	didn't mean that.  Betsy Pond.
	2		Q	Betsy Pond.  How did she identify
	3	them as FBI files?
	4		A	She said, "Those are FBI files."  I
	5	asked the question.
	6		Q	Why did you ask the question?
	7		A	Because there were so many and they
	8	never moved for a long time, stacks and
	9	stacks of files.
10		Q	So when you said Deb Gorham earlier
11	you meant Betsy Pond?
12		A	Well, what I meant to say -- if I
13	was unclear, let me restate.  Deb Gorham
14	who's Vince Foster's assistant, at one point
15	in time was removed from the West Wing
16	Counsel's Office to a desk and a position
17	outside Bill Kennedy's office.  She
18	subsequently left White House employ and
19	Betsy Pond was removed from West Wing counsel
20	and put in that same desk with the same
21	duties, and it was Betsy Pond who mentioned

22	the word "FBI files," and that was the first


				85
	1	time I had heard the files referred to in any
	2	way with the FBI.
	3	     Q	When she said "FBI files," did her
	4	voice have concern in it?  Did you take it
	5	that way?
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

	7		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You can answer.
	8		THE WITNESS:  Not -- I didn't --
	9	not concern, just sort of hush-hush, not

10	overly concerned one way or another and there
11	was no reason for me at that point in time to
12	read much into it, frankly.  I was confused,
13	but again it could very well have been
14	legitimate in my opinion at that time.  I
15	didn't know what the relative ease of files
16	back and forth between agencies was at that
17	time.
18		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19	     Q	Now, at the time that you worked in
20	The White House, did the issue of these files
21	ever arise again?  Was there ever discussion
22	of these particular files that Betsy Pond had


				86
	1	identified as FBI files?
	2	     A	Once with Bill Kennedy and Bill
	3	Kennedy and I --
	4	     Q	Before we get into Bill Kennedy,
	5	let me ask you did you ever have a discussion
	6	where you discussed these files with Betsy
	7	Pond after that initial identification of the
	8	files as FBI files?
	9	     A	Oh, only in regard to her
10	participation in inputting data from the
11	files into a computer, but it again was not a
12	covert conversation or a -- it was more or

13	less -- it's something we don't -- by her
14	demeanor and her voice and the way she spoke,
15	it was quite apparent to me that she -- this
16	was confidential, but it didn't seem illegal
17	at the time or anything.
18		I mean, I didn't get that sense.

19	And she never said she was inputting data
20	from the FBI files into her computer.  What
21	she was doing was continually inputting data
22	into the computer, and on a subsequent


					87
	1	conversation said "the files" when I asked
	2	her what she was doing.
	3		Q	When did you have that subsequent
	4	conversation, roughly speaking?
	5		A	I can't place a date.  It was --
	6	she moved -- I can tell you this.  Betsy Pond
	7	moved from The White House Counsel's Office

	8	in the West Wing sometime in December of '93
	9	or early January of '94, and so it had to

10	have followed that time period, and it was
11	prior to Bernie's resignation, which I
12	believe was in March of '94 which took effect
13	30 days later in April of '94, so it was
14	prior to that time.  So I can date it between
15	end of December, early January -- assume

16	early January '94 to March, in that time
17	frame.  I can't be more specific.
18		Q	And how did the issue arise?  What
19	occurred to cause you to ask the question

20	what are you inputting into your computer?
21		A	It wasn't even -- I was back and
22	forth to Bill Kennedy's office frequently.


				88
	1	Bill Kennedy was involved in or had been
	2	involved in the vetting process --
	3	     Q	Of appointments and holdovers?
	4	     A	Yeah.  Actually, my familiarity was
	5	new appointees, but it could very well have
	6	been holdovers.  I don't know.  And so in

	7	that regard often there would be something
	8	that had a note from Bernie or something back
	9	and forth that I would hand-carry over there
10	on other business and then stop in the
11	counsel's office.
12		Betsy and I would chat.  Our
13	relationship was somewhat strained because of
14	the circumstances of her removal from the
15	West Wing, so it was still cordial and
16	actually friendly but not very close.  But
17	she did not seem to have a problem with
18	saying what she was doing.  So, even though
19	she said it in a hushed voice, I didn't get
20	the sense that this was something of great

21	moment at all.
22	     Q	Who raised the issue, you or


					89
	1	Ms. Pond, about what she was doing at the
	2	time?
	3		A	Oh, I think she did, actually, in

	4	the beginning because she asked if I wanted
	5	to go have a cigarette break.  When she saw
	6	me she said, "I'm so sick to death of --
	7	that's all I do all day," blah blah, and she

	8	made this kind of motion with her hands which
	9	would be her forefingers up and down pecking
10	on the -- and I said, "Does he do a lot of
11	mail"?  And she said, "No, no, it's not.
12	It's the files."  And she pointed back, which
13	to me indicated a direct sort of reference to
14	our previous discussion.
15		Q	When she said "the files," she said
16	FBI files?
17		A	She had said "FBI files" prior to
18	that.  No, this day she said "the files."
19		Q	Did you subsequently confirm from
20	her that she was talking about FBI files that
21	she was putting into the computer?

22		A	I don't recall asking her


					90
	1	specifically.  My sense was that I had but I

	2	don't know that for this purpose I can be any
	3	more accurate than that.
	4		Q	You took it to mean FBI files?
	5		A	I did.
	6		Q	And why did you take it to mean FBI
	7	files?
	8		A	Because of our prior conversation
	9	and the way she motioned to the location of
10	those files.
11		Q	How did she motion, again?
12		A	Sort of "the files," you know, as
13	those I knew, and I did.
14		Q	And the use of the term "the files"
15	between you and Ms. Pond took on a meaning
16	"the FBI files" in the course of time?
17			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	You can respond.
20		A	Well, I thought so.
21		Q	That was the way that you
22	communicated about files that were FBI files,


					91
	1	generally referred to them as "the files"?
	2			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
	3			THE WITNESS:  On the few occasions
	4	that we referenced them at all, yes.
	5			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	6		Q	Such as the occasion when you
	7	discussed Billy Dale and related files, you
	8	called them the files?
	9		A	I don't recall ever discussing
10	Billy Dale.
11		Q	Excuse me, the Dale file.
12		A	I don't think I ever discussed with
13	Betsy Pond the Billy Dale file.
14		Q	What instance did you discuss files
15	that were FBI files where you referred to
16	them as "the files"?
17		A	Well, the conversation I just
18	relayed would be one such time.
19		Q	Where she identified them as being

20	FBI files and then called them "the files" in
21	the same conversation?
22		A	No, no, on a completely separate


					92
	1	day that preceded the day I'm speaking of

	2	right now, the input day as opposed to the
	3	day that she mentioned what those files were.
	4	Those are completely separate days.
	5		Q	Right.
	6		A	So the day when we addressed the
	7	issue of the stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's
	8	office she referred to them as FBI files.  On
	9	this subsequent day, where she was inputting
10	in her machine and bemoaned the fact that she
11	was flustered at having to do this, meaning
12	it's a lot of work and tedious, she referred
13	to them as "the files," which, as I stated,
14	in my opinion referenced our previous
15	conversation.
16		Q	And my subsequent question is did
17	it take on a way of referring to the FBI
18	files by calling them "the files"?
19			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection form.
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	Was that a common phraseology used
22	in the office with her?


					93
	1		A	Mr. Klayman, I really didn't pay
	2	all that much attention to how we referred to

	3	them because at the time I really didn't know
	4	or note the significance of what we were
	5	talking about.  So to give you any more level
	6	of detail than what I have I think would be
	7	reaching a bit.  I'm sorry.
	8		Q	When she said she was inputting the
	9	files on this day that you had the
10	discussion, did she have a stack of them on
11	her desk?
12		A	Yes.
13		Q	About how big was the stack?
14		A	Again, I can't give you a
15	measurement.  There was a good -- I would say
16	a good number of files there.
17		Q	About a foot worth?
18		A	Let me just state that Betsy Pond
19	operated in a cluttered environment much as I
20	did, so there were many, many things out on
21	her desk and area, but I did notice this,

22	again, commonality to the stack that she was


					94
	1	inputting which --
	2		Q	Commonality with what?
	3		A	With the ones that I had seen in
	4	the stacks in Mr. Kennedy's office, the ones

	5	I had seen on Mr. Foster's desk, the ones I
	6	had seen in Mr. Foster's safe in Bernie
	7	Nussbuam's office and --
	8		Q	Such as the Dale file?
	9		A	Such as the Dale file -- and ones I
10	had seen in Mr. Livingstone's office.
11		Q	And it was that commonality which
12	caused you to equate FBI with "those files"?
13		A	Yes, and by that time, as you can
14	well imagine, I was far more sensitized to

15	the danger of those files, although not
16	knowing how dangerous, because of what
17	subsequently happened with Mr. Dale.

18		Q	Why specifically were you more
19	sensitized to the danger of those files at
20	that time?
21		A	Because it was shortly thereafter
22	that they were unceremoniously removed from


			95
	1	The White House after many years of service,
	2	and they were all known to be professional

	3	decent, honorable people, and they were not
	4	treated that way.
	5	     Q    But what, if anything, caused you
	6	to relate the dismissal of the Travel Office
	7	with the files you had seen?
	8	     A    Well, as I stated earlier, the
	9	files went in with Mr. Kennedy and those
10	individuals I mentioned earlier for the
11	purpose of, as Deb Gorham relayed to me, a
12	Travel Office meeting.  So from my
13	perspective a meeting took place with people
14	who seemed to have an agenda one way or
15	another with the members of the Travel
16	Office, the Dale file was there, it remained
17	in the Counsel's Office, and then subsequent
18	events occurred that made me feel that this
19	was perhaps not a legitimately good thing to
20	have seen.
21	     Q    And that's what caused you to put,
22	in effect, two and two together?


					96
	1			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the
	2	form.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

	4		Q	You can respond.
	5			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you understand
	6	the question.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	You were able to put all the
	9	events --
10		A	It allowed me to draw my own
11	conclusions.
12		Q	That the FBI files were somehow
13	related to the Travel Office firings?
14		A	That was my feeling.
15		Q	Now, I take it that you saw these
16	FBI files on Ms. Pond's desk on more than one
17	day?
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the
19	form.
20			THE WITNESS:  I have no specific

21	recollection of how many times I saw Betsy
22	inputting data from these folders.  I have a


					97
	1	specific recollection of one particular time
	2	that stood out in my mind.  I can't be any
	3	more specific than that.
	4		Q	Not specific recollection but just

	5	recollection.  You saw on multiple occasions
	6	these files being inputted by Betsy Pond in
	7	her computer?
	8		A	I just don't know that I can say
	9	with any degree of accuracy that those other
10	times that I saw her at her computer she was
11	working on that same type of work.  I don't
12	know.
13		Q	Well, let me just ask you from a
14	different perspective that you believed that
15	she was working on inputting FBI files
16	continuously after she first told you what
17	she was doing?

18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the form
19	of the question.
20			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection.  Leading.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

22		Q	You can respond.


				98
	1		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Did you believe
	2	Mrs. Pond was working on FBI files other than

	3	the one occasion that you specifically recall
	4	that she was doing that?
	5		MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to the
	6	order of questioning.
	7		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8	     Q	You can respond.
	9	     A	Based on an explanation that Betsy
10	had provided to me on more than one occasion,
11	not identifying the files as FBI but just in
12	conversation on a cigarette break, for
13	instance, she would on more than one occasion
14	bemoan the fact that she was still entering
15	data into the computer, and she felt that was
16	beneath her.  She had had a very long career
17	as an executive secretary in prestigious law
18	firms.  She felt that she had been reduced to
19	nothing more than a data entry clerk.  So
20	that seemed to be bothersome to Betsy, and I
21	certainly understood that.
22	     Q	Now, you talked about one


				99
	1	particular instance.  Tell us about that,
	2	that sticks out in your mind after that first
	3	discussion that you had.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  She already has,
	5	Mr. Klayman.
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  Oh, that was the
	7	instance?
	8		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's correct.
	9		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10	     Q	Now, what kind of computer systems

11	or system did Betsy Pond have at her desk at
12	the time you became aware she was entering
13	information from files into it?
14	     A	I don't know what computer she was
15	using at that time.  I know that when Deb
16	Gorham left her computer from our office in
17	the West Wing, the secure office in a West
18	Wing, alarmed office, was removed against my

19	recommendation to the Old EOB and accompanied
20	Deb when she went to that same location.  It
21	could very well be that that was the same

22	computer.  I don't know.  I do know that a


					100
	1	computer that used to be in the counsel's

	2	office was moved to that location when Deb
	3	moved, and I believe the same computer was
	4	used by Betsy when she took that position.
	5		Q	Do you remember what kind of
	6	computer it was?
	7		A	No.
	8		Q	In terms of hardware?
	9		A	It was a PC, not a Mac, I think.
10		Q	A desktop?
11		A	Yes, it was a desktop -- well, I

12	mean, by that you mean a normal-size monitor
13	and -- yeah, it appeared to be.
14		Q	Did you ever discuss with Betsy

15	what software she was inputting these files
16	into?
17		A	I didn't.
18		Q	Did you ever come to know a
19	computer referred to as WHODB?
20		A	No.  Actually, I've only read press
21	accounts of that.  That was not a database
22	that I was familiar with at all.  I had heard


					101
	1	other names for other databases but not that
	2	one.
	3		Q	Did you become aware when you
	4	worked in the White House of certain
	5	databases that only certain people had access
	6	to?
	7		A	Yes.
	8		Q	What did you become aware of?
	9			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At this point,

10	Mr. Klayman, I'm going to object because I'm
11	not sure this is within the scope.  Can you
12	proffer to me the relevance?
13			MR. KLAYMAN:  We're just trying to
14	find out which database this was inputted
15	into.
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  The information
17	that Mrs. pond was inputting.  If you know.
18			THE WITNESS:  I don't know what

19	database she was inputting into.  I never
20	asked.
21		Q	Did you become aware, however, of
22	databases that certain people had limited


					102
	1	access to in The White House counsel's
	2	office?
	3	     A	And I have told you yes.
	4		MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Zaccagnini, this
	5	is an area that the court has allowed
	6	discovery into.
	7		MS. SHAPIRO:  I object to that
	8	characterization.
	9		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Is it subject to
10	litigation at this point in time?
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  Yes.

12		MR. KLAYMAN:  No.
13		MS. WEISMANN:  Well, this order is
14	what governs this deposition.
15		MR. KLAYMAN:  Can we have one
16	counsel speak for the government?
17		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, if
18	I'm understanding this correctly, it's your

19	belief that Mrs. Pond may have been inputting
20	data into a certain database; is that
21	correct?
22		MR. KLAYMAN:  I want to find out


				103
	1	what database and what databases does
	2	Ms. Tripp know of that exist in that office.

	3	Now, I'm not asking for the underlying name
	4	of that database, which may or may not be
	5	confidential.  I'm just asking which
	6	databases exist that she knew of.
	7		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Can I ask her a
	8	couple questions?  I'll ask them on the
	9	record so you'll understand where I'm going
10	because I'm not sure I want her to answer
11	that question because it may be privileged
12	material.
13		Did your knowledge of these
14	databases that you acknowledge existed come
15	from your employment within the counsel's

16	office, as a result of your employment within
17	the counsel's office?
18		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me object to this
19	right now.  If you want to consult with her,
20	that's fine.
21		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to step
22	outside with her for a second.


				104
	1		MR. KLAYMAN:  Just make a proffer
	2	when you get back.
	3		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  We'll go off the
	4	record.
	5		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
	6	video record at 12:12.

	7		     (Recess)
	8		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
	9	video record at 12:20.

10		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11	     Q	The question that was pending,
12	Ms. Tripp, was what types of databases during
13	the time that you worked in The White House
14	Counsel's Office were you aware of?
15		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At that point,
16	Mr. Klayman, I'm going to interpose an
17	objection, as it relates to the fact that I
18	don't believe that Linda Tripp's
19	acknowledgment or knowledge of databases is
20	within the scope of this deposition.

21		However, I will proffer that
22	Ms. Tripp has informed me that she was aware


			105
	1	of a database called People Base, and I don't

	2	see how it has any relevance to this inquiry
	3	at this point in time.
	4	          You have advised me that there is
	5	an order that you believe permits the scope
	6	of discovery, and I would ask that I be
	7	allowed to examine that.
	8	          MR. KLAYMAN:  Right.  We'll see if
	9	we can give that to you before lunch.  Maybe
10	that will even influence when we take lunch.
11	But the court has clearly allowed us to take
12	discovery on White House database systems,
13	and security systems and a whole variety of
14	systems that you may have read about that in
15	The Washington Times and elsewhere.  This is
16	something that we've gotten into and it's
17	relevant because we need to know what

18	database this information was being put on at
19	The White House.
20	          MS. SHAPIRO:  Let me say that

21	despite your proffer of relevancy this
22	deposition is specifically controlled by a


			106
	1	protective order which identifies the
	2	subjects which are relevant to the
	3	deposition.  This subject is not included in
	4	that, so we would object to getting into
	5	inquiry, since the witness has already
	6	testified that she didn't know the database
	7	that was at issue.
	8	          MR. KLAYMAN:  Don't feed her
	9	testimony.  We've been through this many
10	times, Ms. Shapiro.  I don't want to get into
11	kids' games with you over this.  You know

12	that this is relevant to this case, and you
13	know that the court order did not outline
14	every area which is subsumed within its

15	general parameters.  If you want to go over
16	to the court and argue that right now, I'd be
17	happy to, and I'll move for sanctions.  Do
18	you want to do that?
19	          MS. SHAPIRO:  I'm looking at the
20	face of the order, and I'm stating my
21	objection.
22	          MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's move on, then,


				107
	1	and certify this area.
	2		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
	3	instruct her not to answer that question,

	4	Mr. Klayman, with respect to what types of
	5	databases she has knowledge at this point in
	6	time.  I'd ask that you move on to your next
	7	area of inquiry.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  Will you revisit this
	9	after lunch?  I'll give you the order.
10		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Sure.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  If not, I'm going to
12	let the court know that we may have an
13	impasse we need to resolve.
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'd like to take a
15	look at the order, and then I'll advise you
16	as to whether or not I intend to revisit our
17	position on this.  If not, then I will be

18	glad to go to the court and have the judge
19	issue the order.
20		MR. KLAYMAN:  I just want to make
21	it clear that the U.S. Department of Justice
22	may or may not be stating things accurately.


					108
	1		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I understand.

	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  In my view, they
	3	don't represent the interests of Ms. Tripp.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'll make my own
	5	decisions independently.
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  I think I could say
	7	the same for you, Mr. Klayman.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  At least, not that
	9	aspect of the Department of Justice.
10		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11	     Q	Were there databases, without

12	identifying a particular database, that would
13	be able to take information from files that
14	you knew of in The White House counsel's
15	office?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'll object on the
17	same line, Mr. Klayman.  I think we're still
18	getting perilously overboard in terms of the
19	scope of this deposition.  I would ask that
20	you defer asking any questions relating to

21	database, at least until I get a chance to
22	look at that order, or at least until we get


					109
	1	a chance to visit the court.
	2			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	3		Q	Did Ms. Pond ever tell you what
	4	information from the files she was inputting
	5	into the computers?
	6		A	I don't recall substantively what
	7	she told me about that.  She made an
	8	explanation at that time, and I'm sorry; I
	9	don't recall specifically.
10		Q	Do you recall generally?
11		A	I don't.  I don't remember.  It was
12	in columns.  There were columns on the

13	particular screen at that time, and she
14	indicated that's what she was doing at the
15	time, inputting the data from the files, so
16	I'm assuming that the columns had some
17	significance, and again, that is an
18	assumption.  Be that as it may, it was an

19	assumption I made at that time.  I didn't get
20	the sense that it was an abbreviated entry of
21	data, simply by the screen that I saw that
22	day and her exasperation with the


					110
	1	time-consuming nature of her task.
	2		Q	Did she tell you what types of data
	3	she was inputting?  Did she ever tell you
	4	that?
	5		A	If she did, I don't recall it.  I'm
	6	sorry.
	7		Q	Do you know if there was anyone
	8	else who was assisting her on that data entry
	9	on to computer?
10		A	I don't believe so, at least not to
11	my knowledge.
12		Q	Did you have an understanding as to
13	why there was no one else assisting her?

14		A	It was my understanding that she
15	had taken on the role that Deb Gorham had
16	performed prior to her departing The White
17	House, and actually, I just now remembered
18	that Deb Gorham had also said she was

19	inputting data, which is why I suppose that I
20	made leap in assumption.  In any event, Betsy
21	Pond seemed to continue that role.
22		Q	Did she say she was inputting data


					111
	1	from files, Deb Gorham?
	2		A	She did, but she did not say FBI
	3	files.  It was Betsy Pond who said FBI files.
	4		Q	Did you ever see printouts of the
	5	data that either Deb Gorham or Betsy Pond was
	6	inputting into the computer?
	7		A	I did not.  No.
	8		Q	Do you know whether the inputs into
	9	the computer were stored on hard drive or
10	diskette?
11		A	I don't know.  I don't know.  Betsy
12	had disks on her desk, loose disks.  They
13	could have been correspondence disks,
14	telephone log disks, or file disks.  I have
15	no idea.
16			I routinely saved everything on the

17	hard drive at The White House, and those of
18	us in the west wing Counsel's Office
19	generally did, because we didn't have a great
20	deal of mass production, and there was no

21	need to keep a large pile of disks on hand.
22	We just deleted as we went along for space,


					112
	1	knowing that the record was never really
	2	deleted.
	3		Q	Did you know whether or not
	4	recordations on computer went into a backup
	5	system, a server?
	6		A	We certainly understood that in the
	7	Counsel's Office, yes.
	8		Q	Did you have to do anything in
	9	particular in using the computer to make sure
10	it was backed up on a server?
11		A	No, we were told, actually, that

12	everything, including our electronic mail
13	transmissions, were backed up on a giant big
14	brother kind of machine, and it has since
15	been proven to be true in my case.
16		Q	Did people refer to it as Big
17	Brother?
18		A	Yes.
19		Q	Where was that Big Brother housed?
20	Did anyone discuss that?
21		A	I don't remember, no.  I don't
22	remember, sort of the big computer heaven in


					113
	1	the sky somewhere.  I have no idea.  I know

	2	that computer people came over from the New
	3	Executive Office Building to assist us when
	4	we had problems.  I don't know.

	5		Q	Was there ever any understanding in
	6	The White House Counsel's Office that there
	7	was any kind of surveillance system, video or
	8	audio, to record what went on in that office?
	9		A	I'm sorry.  In the counsel's
10	office?
11		Q	Yes.
12		A	I don't know.
13		Q	Did anyone ever say that?
14		A	Video or audio?  I don't believe
15	so, huh-uh.
16		Q	Was there ever any understanding

17	that such systems existed when you worked in
18	the President's office?
19		A	Well, let me back up and tell you
20	that you're not, of course, referring to the
21	security alarm, correct?  That the Counsel's
22	Office along with the Chief of Staff, the


					114
	1	Vice President, National Security Advisor,
	2	and the President --
	3		MS. SHAPIRO:  I would just like to
	4	caution the witness not to talk about any

	5	Secret Service systems or security control
	6	devices.
	7		MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify this.  I
	8	object to your interceding and instructing
	9	this witness to do this or that.  If you want
10	to discuss that with Mr. Zaccagnini, that's
11	fine, but for you to try to give her an
12	impression of what's appropriate or not on
13	the record is inappropriate.
14		MS. SHAPIRO:  Well, it's inasmuch
15	as directed to Mr. Zaccagnini.
16		MR. KLAYMAN:  If you want to go off
17	the record at some later point, that's fine.
18		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That's fine.  Go
19	ahead, Mr. Klayman.
20		THE WITNESS:  Can I answer or not?
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  This is exactly the
22	problem, because she hears the U.S.


				115
	1	Department of Justice making that kind of
	2	objection, and she wonders whether she's in
	3	jeopardy in giving a response.
	4		MS. SHAPIRO:  We're entitled to
	5	protect our interests here.  There are

	6	interests.  She's a former government
	7	employee and a current government employee.
	8	If you like, we can take a break, and I'll
	9	talk to Mr. Zaccagnini, and we can see what
10	she can testify to.
11		We also have, by the way, a court
12	order about Secret Service systems, which
13	you're aware.
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'd like to step

15	outside and talk to her for a second; so why
16	don't we go off the record?  To Ms. Shapiro.
17		MR. KLAYMAN:  Can I be privy to the
18	conversation?
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Sure.
20		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
21	video record at 12:31.

22		     (Recess)


					116
	1			THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
	2	video record at 12:38.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	4		Q	Were you aware of any security
	5	systems when you worked in the Office of the
	6	President?
	7		A	Yes.
	8		Q	What types of security systems?
	9	I'm not asking for the specifics.
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  At this point in
11	time, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to advise
12	Ms. Tripp not to answer that question out of

13	concerns for national security.  I would ask
14	that you defer any questions relating to the
15	security system, until we either take this up
16	with the judge, or you can show me an order
17	that would cause me to change my opinion.
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	Let me ask just a general question.
20	Did you have the impression that you were

21	being videotaped when you worked in the
22	President's Office?


				117
	1		MS. SHAPIRO:  Asked and answered.
	2		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
	3	advise Ms. Tripp not to answer that question,

	4	although I think she has already responded to
	5	the question.
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  That was The White
	7	House Counsel's Office.
	8		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Again, out of

	9	national security concerns, I'm going to
10	advise her not to respond to that question .
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.
12		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13	     Q	When you saw this computer screen
14	that Betsy Pond was working on, other than
15	columns, did you note anything else?
16	     A	It wasn't just columns, but I

17	don't -- I know that it was unfamiliar to me.
18	It was not The White House Counsel's Office
19	correspondence tracking database.  It was not
20	a database with which I was familiar with.
21	     Q	Did she ever tell you that only she
22	had access to that kind of a computer


				118
	1	program?
	2	     A	I don't recall her saying that to
	3	me.  I don't know that that came up.
	4	     Q	I may have asked this question
	5	before, but just to be sure, were there White
	6	House databases that Ms. Pond had access to
	7	that you didn't?  Were you aware of that?
	8		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Only if you know
	9	the answer to that.
10		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

11		THE WITNESS:  I knew that I didn't
12	have access to the one she was working on,

13	because in response to your earlier question,
14	the one that just preceded this one, the only
15	indication Betsy had given me at all about
16	the peculiar nature of this particular
17	database was in bemoaning the fact that it
18	was yet another software she had to learn,
19	and it was not her strongest ability, shall
20	we say, computers in general.  And so, to the
21	extent that she explained that it was
22	frustrating to have to learn a new software


					119
	1	entry system, that was frustrating for Betsy.

	2	And I did not know, nor was I familiar at all
	3	with that database.
	4			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5		Q	Was it a windows' format?  Do you
	6	know?
	7		A	I don't know.  It was just a
	8	screen.  I don't remember what --
	9		Q	Was there anything that was

10	circulated in The White House Counsel's
11	Office making reference to a new database
12	system in and around the time that you saw
13	Ms. Pond entering files into the system?
14		A	I don't recall -- excuse me one
15	moment.

16			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
17			THE WITNESS:  The question was
18	concerning documents circulating; is that the
19	question?
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	Was there any notification in the

22	office about a new database system in and


					120
	1	around that period of time that you had this
	2	conversation with Ms. Pond about loading
	3	files onto the computer?
	4			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.

	5			THE WITNESS:  Frankly, I don't
	6	recall any such notification of any kind.  I
	7	wouldn't, most likely in my case, would not
	8	have paid much attention, because it had
	9	nothing to do with my particular role, which
10	was very -- had very little computer

11	application at all in my role in that office.
12			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13		Q	During the time that you were in
14	The White House, did you ever see any written
15	materials or otherwise concerning the
16	handling of FBI files?

17		A	I did not.
18		Q	During the time that you were in
19	The White House, did you see any information
20	pertaining to the Privacy Act?
21		A	Frequently, the Privacy Act, yes,

22	would come up, as it pertained to the release


					121
	1	of information to the public or to the
	2	release of information in general.  And I
	3	know that that was an issue that arose
	4	frequently in the Counsel's Office, but my
	5	observation of that, at that time, would
	6	simply have been to acknowledge that I was
	7	hearing that we adhere to the Privacy Act in

	8	a general understanding of what that implied
	9	and nothing more.
10		Q	It was your understanding that The
11	White House's counsel office adhered to the
12	Privacy Act?
13		A	At the time, yes.
14		Q	At the time you worked there?
15		A	Yes.
16		Q	It was your understanding at the
17	time you worked in the President's office

18	that the President's office also adhered to
19	the Privacy Act?
20		A	Absolutely.  Remember, I have

21	a 19-year government career.  It never
22	occurred to me that -- I believe the Privacy


					122
	1	Act was instituted in 1974.  I would never
	2	have thought in the 1990s that in any
	3	government agency it would be an issue for
	4	debate.
	5		Q	During the time that you worked in
	6	The White House, no one ever told you the
	7	Privacy Act does not apply?
	8		A	Oh, no.  No.
	9		Q	People did tell you the Privacy Act
10	does apply?
11		A	Again, I don't recall a direct
12	conversation with anyone about whether or not

13	it did apply.  My sense was that we adhered
14	to the Privacy Act restrictions.
15		Q	You don't remember anything in

16	writing that specifically said the Privacy
17	Act does not apply to The White House?
18		A	Oh, absolutely not.
19		Q	Or any office of the White House?
20		A	I would remember such a statement
21	anywhere.
22			MR. KLAYMAN:  I think we can take a


			123
	1	lunch break at this point.  Resume in an

	2	hour.  We're not sure we have the right
	3	order, but if not, we'll get you some more
	4	orders.  We got orders that have orders.
	5	          THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
	6	video record at 12:45.
	7	               (Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., a
	8	               luncheon recess was taken.)

9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22


				124
	1	      A F T E R N O O N  S E S S I O N
	2		                               (1:52 p.m.)
	3	Whereupon,
	4		     LINDA R. TRIPP
	5	was recalled as a witness and, having been
	6	previously duly sworn, was examined and
	7	testified further as follows:
	8		EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
	9		CONTINUED
10		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
11	video record at 1:52.
12		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13	     Q	Ms. Tripp, before we broke for

14	lunch, we were asking about what types of
15	White House systems, either computer systems
16	or security systems -- we were talking about
17	security systems -- that you were aware of
18	when you worked there.  We're not interested
19	in technical specifications but just what

20	type of systems were in existence, and I've
21	referred your counsel to an order of April
22	13, 1998, of this court at page 14.


					125
	1		MS. SHAPIRO:  I think, then, if
	2	this this what you intend on doing, we should
	3	contact the court at this time because the
	4	order that you referred to had to do with the
	5	30(b)(6) deposition.  It did not have to do
	6	with security systems.  I don't know if
	7	Mr. Zaccagnini was made aware of the order

	8	which explicitly says that Secret Service
	9	systems and other systems of that nature are
10	irrelevant to this action.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm asking about
12	White House systems.  If you're going to make
13	an issue of that, we'll defer that until

14	later and get back to this, and that's one
15	reason why we may want to have the hearing
16	with the court tomorrow morning.
17		MS. SHAPIRO:  We'd like to do that
18	now, then.
19		MR. KLAYMAN:  I know you'd like to
20	break up my deposition but you're not going
21	to do that.
22		MS. SHAPIRO:  I think that's the


					126
	1	required procedure.
	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  We'll proceed the way
	3	I want to proceed and I'm withdrawing the
	4	question right now.  I'd ask you not to run

	5	out the clock with things after I've already
	6	agreed with you.
	7		MS. SHAPIRO:  I don't understand
	8	that comment but please proceed.
	9		MR. KLAYMAN:  I said we'll put it
10	off until later.
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  Please proceed.
12		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13	     Q	Ms. Tripp, you previously testified
14	that the computer that Betsy Pond told you
15	she was inputting FBI files on had been
16	Deborah Gorham's computer; is that correct?
17		MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
18		THE WITNESS:  I believe what I said
19	was that Deborah Gorham departed The White
20	House having left the computer she had had in
21	the West Wing at her duty station outside
22	Bill Kennedy's office.  Betsy then took that


					127
	1	position and that desk and to the best of my
	2	knowledge retained that computer.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	4		Q	So the computer wasn't moved
	5	somewhere else and then moved back?  That was
	6	the impression we had this morning.
	7		A	It was moved from the West Wing
	8	against my recommendations for other salient
	9	reasons and was moved to her new location,

10	Deborah Gorham's new location, outside Bill
11	Kennedy's office.  That's one computer that
12	went from the West Wing counsel's office, a
13	secured office, to an Old EOB open office.
14		Q	And why did you have concern that
15	it was being moved from a secured office to
16	an open office?
17		A	We were in the midst of various
18	inquiries as to the aftermath of Vince
19	Foster's death, and I raised the issue with
20	Steve Neuwirth -- actually, with Bernie
21	Nussbuam initially, who agreed that it would
22	not be smart to allow the computer which


					128
	1	required compartmentalized password codes to

	2	access some of the data in that computer to
	3	leave a secured office, and we informed

	4	Deborah Gorham that she would receive a
	5	similar if not exact duplicate of her machine
	6	at her new location, and that's the way it
	7	was left until a day or so later, when I

	8	returned to the counsel's office and her
	9	computer was missing.  So it had been moved
10	and Steve Neuwirth had authorized its move.
11		Q	What was Steve Neuwirth's position
12	at the time?
13		A	I think his title was one of the
14	many associate counsel to the President.

15		Q	Had you recommended to Mr. Neuwirth
16	or others that that computer prior to being
17	moved be secured?
18		A	Well, I had to Mr. Nussbaum, who
19	agreed with me.  I had intended to speak with
20	Steve Neuwirth, who generally sort of became
21	the logistical coordination between the Old
22	EOB and the West Wing.  I don't remember if I


					129
	1	had a direct conversation with him prior to
	2	that.  I did have one with Deborah Gorham
	3	following my conversation with Bernie,
	4	explained the rationale and why the decision
	5	had been made.
	6			She was not happy with it, went to
	7	Steve Neuwirth independently, and he
	8	authorized its move.  I did speak to him

	9	immediately thereafter and expressed my
10	outrage.  And his reply to me was, "I never
11	thought of that."
12		Q	What I'm trying to understand is
13	the computer that Betsy Pond was entering the
14	FBI file data was that different than the

15	computer that had originally been moved of
16	Deborah Gorham?
17		A	I have no way of knowing.
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
19			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

20		Q	You don't know?
21		A	Sorry.
22		Q	And which office did Deborah


					130
	1	Gorham's computer go to originally?

	2			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
	3			THE WITNESS:  Bill Kennedy's outer
	4	office, where she sat for the rest of her
	5	tenure at The White House.

	6			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7		Q	Deborah Gorham?
	8		A	Yeah.
	9		Q	Until she left?
10		A	(Nodding)

11		Q	And you don't know whether Betsy
12	Pond inherited that particular computer?

13		A	I don't know that for a fact, no.
14		Q	Based on your knowledge and
15	experience in working in The White House,
16	where would computers be stored if they're no
17	longer in service?
18		A	There's a large computer office,

19	computer functions office, the name I don't
20	recall at this moment, that serviced all our
21	needs, removed computers, repaired them,

22	brought us new, updated them, and where we


					131
	1	were told the back repository was located,
	2	and I'm not real sure exactly where they were

	3	located.  I know a portion of that office was
	4	located in the New EOB.  I don't know if the
	5	basement of the Old EOB was part of that as

	6	well because some of our calls went to a
	7	different location than the new EOB.
	8		Q	You said that Deborah Gorham's
	9	computer, the original one that you were

10	concerned about, had access codes, correct?
11		A	Yes.
12		Q	Did the Betsy Pond computer that
13	was used for entering FBI files have access
14	codes to?
15			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the
16	form.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

18		Q	You can respond.
19		A	I don't know.
20		Q	Now, did there come a point --
21		A	May I just finish that?
22		Q	Sure.


					132
	1		A	I don't know because I never
	2	accessed Betsy Pond's or -- I never accessed
	3	the computer at which Betsy Pond sat once
	4	that computer moved to the Old EOB.  So
	5	whether it was the same one or a different

	6	one, I never sat at the computer and opened
	7	it or entered it in any way.  That was not

	8	the case with the computer when it was in Deb
	9	Gorham's workstation in the counsel's office.
10	Often I would access that computer and -- in
11	her absence or when it was appropriate and

12	often the screen would flash, too, that you
13	needed a passcode for this file.
14		Q	That was Gorham's computer?
15		A	Right.
16		Q	But did Betsy Pond's screen ever
17	flash that you needed an access code?
18		A	In the West Wing?
19		Q	Yes.
20		A	No, nor did mine, nor did anyone
21	else's.
22		Q	Did you ever see any computer that


					133
	1	Betsy Pond was using that flashed notating

	2	that it was a passcode that was required?
	3		A	I have no information about that.
	4		Q	Now, this morning you testified
	5	about a file labeled "Dale" and files that
	6	were similar to a file labeled "Dale" that
	7	later made their way from Vince Foster's
	8	office apparently into Vince Foster's safe?
	9		A	Correct.
10		Q	And you testified that you saw

11	other files in that safe that looked similar
12	to those files, correct?
13		A	Correct.
14		Q	And you testified that they later
15	were identified to you as FBI files, correct?
16		A	I testified that files with a
17	similar commonality to those files that you
18	just spoke of were FBI files, that's true.

19		Q	And did there come a point in time
20	when you saw other files that looked like
21	those I've just identified?
22			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.


					134
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	In The White House counsel's
	3	office?
	4			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.

	5			MR. KLAYMAN:  That's just for the
	6	record.  Let me rephrase it.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	You testified with regard to the
	9	Dale file and similar files, and you
10	testified that in Foster's safe you saw files
11	that were similar to those?
12		A	Right.
13		Q	And you testified later that Betsy
14	Pond told you she was entering FBI files into
15	her computer?
16			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18		Q	You can respond.  Correct?
19		A	Well, I think the last part of it
20	isn't exactly true.  She said she was
21	entering data and referred to "the files" and
22	pointed back to the location where the files


					135
	1	we had referenced in an earlier conversation

	2	had been.  My assumption from that was that
	3	they were FBI files.
	4		Q	And they looked like what had been
	5	identified as FBI files?
	6		A	Yes.  Absolutely, mm-hmm.
	7		Q	Now, did there come a point in time
	8	when you saw other files in that office, not
	9	those I've just identified but additional
10	files that looked similar?
11		A	You mean I did see these very same
12	sort of files in Craig Livingstone's office.
13		Q	Yes.  When did you see them in
14	Craig Livingstone's office?
15		A	More than one time and far fewer

16	than were in Bill Kennedy's office but still
17	the same look again.  But I was told that
18	those were not security background files
19	because I asked the question on a visit over
20	there on administrative tasking that had to
21	do with Craig Livingstone's assistant, and
22	that day I asked Craig and I also asked


				136
	1	Anthony Marceca at one point if all those

	2	files were past applications or security
	3	backgrounds for White House staff.
	4		This was quite a ways into the
	5	first year, and many White House staff were
	6	still wearing the temporary blue passes.  So

	7	I assumed at first that perhaps all the files
	8	could have been security, but I was told they
	9	were not.
10	     Q	Are you referring to the Office of
11	Personnel Security?
12	     A	I believe that's how it is named,
13	yes.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  I show you what I'll
15	ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 6.
16		     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 6
17		     was marked for identification.)
18		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19	     Q	Exhibit 6 is an article written by
20	Brian Blomquist of The New York Post, "Tripp:
21	Telling the Truth's Very Easy," consists of

22	three pages.


					137
	1		A	When was this written?
	2		Q	It was written on or about July 1,

	3	1998.  The date's on the right-hand corner at
	4	the bottom.
	5			MR. GAFFNEY:  That's when it was
	6	printed out.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	Well, it was in that time period.
	9		A	I see.
10		Q	And I'm just going to use it to
11	refresh your recollection.  Incidentally, in
12	answer to your question, the first paragraph
13	says, "Washington Starr Sexgate witness Linda
14	Tripp spent more than seven hours before the
15	Sexgate grand jury yesterday and is set to be
16	back on the stand with tales of more
17	scandals."  Apparently, this was written
18	after your appearance before the grand jury.
19		A	And obviously not by The Washington 
20	Post, huh?
21		Q	No.  How can you tell that?
22		A	Just guessing.


				138
	1		MR. KLAYMAN:  Have anything to do
	2	with the content?
	3		     (Pause)
	4		THE WITNESS:  Yes.  What is your
	5	question, Mr. Klayman?
	6		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7	     Q	I'm turning to the third page,
	8	between the second and the third page, at the
	9	bottom of the second page where it says,

10	"Tripp, who worked with White House counsel
11	Vince Foster before he killed himself, could
12	face questions about the improper acquisition
13	of FBI files on Republicans by The White
14	House and the Whitewater financial scandal.
15	Starr also is probing Filegate and
16	Whitewater."
17		Going on to the third page,
18	"Goldberg said Tripp told her she witnessed a
19	White House secretary loading up FBI files on
20	a computer.  Did you tell Lucianne Goldberg
21	that"?
22	     A	I may have actually in 1996.


					139
	1		Q	And then it states, "She was there
	2	when she came in with hand trucks of FBI
	3	files one day.  She walked over to use
	4	another secretary's computer to get a phone
	5	number and found the screen flashed up
	6	'encrypted.'"  Is that an accurate recitation
	7	of what you told Lucianne Goldberg?
	8		A	No.
	9		Q	What is not accurate about it?
10		A	Well, this appears to be in Lucy's
11	peculiar style.  I don't know what a hand

12	truck is, and I never witnessed hand trucks
13	or any other sort of trucks loading or
14	unloading FBI files at The White House.  This
15	reference to "encrypted" I can only surmise
16	references the password entry key that was
17	necessary on Deb Gorham's machine while still
18	housed in the counsel's office West Wing,

19	where certain words would prompt a passcode
20	entry necessity.  The word "encrypted" I
21	don't recall.
22		Q	What is a hand truck to you?


					140
	1		A	I have no idea.
	2		Q	Later on, when you worked in The
	3	White House Counsel's Office, did you become
	4	aware of FBI files other than those you
	5	identified this morning?
	6			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.

	7			THE WITNESS:  Well, I think it's
	8	fair to say for the record that I to this

	9	date don't know what I saw, but I am certain
10	in my own mind what I saw.  It's probably

11	important to note that I never saw an FBI
12	folder or any folder that was emblazoned with
13	the seal of the FBI or the Department of
14	Justice in any way.  I think I've stated that
15	I can say with confidence what they were not
16	and can say with confidence what I was told
17	they were.  I don't know that I can say with
18	confidence what they were in actuality.
19		Q	Well, what were you told?
20		A	I was told they were FBI files by
21	Betsy Pond.  I believe they were FBI files.
22	I'm just saying that, knowing that we have


					141
	1	such an illustrious group of attorneys
	2	surrounding this table, that at one point I

	3	will be asked to defend my statements, and I
	4	intend to testify completely truthfully
	5	regardless of how the chips may fall.  I have
	6	done so and to the best of my ability, I
	7	might add.  So that's about all I can tell
	8	you about those files.
	9		Q	Tell us who had access to files

10	that were identified by Betsy Pond as FBI
11	files when you worked in The White House
12	counsel's office?

13		A	Well, to my limited knowledge, the
14	only individuals I saw with access would be
15	Vince Foster, Bill Kennedy, Betsy Pond, and
16	those other people who attended the Travel

17	Office meetings whom I listed for you earlier
18	and only in that they attended a meeting

19	where the files came in and did not leave.
20		Q	Did you ever see Bill Kennedy with
21	files that you believed were FBI files?
22		A	Yes.


						142
	1		Q	When was that?
	2		A	Excuse me one moment.
	3			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
	4			THE WITNESS:  At one point, and I'm
	5	uncertain with the date, I observed Bill

	6	Kennedy in the hallway of the Old EOB in
	7	close proximity to his office holding some of
	8	those same file folders which had that
	9	familiar look by that point in a conversation
10	with Marcia Scott.  The conversation I
11	overheard had to do with database.
12			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13		Q	Did you hear anything more?
14		A	Yes.
15		Q	What else did you hear?
16			MS. SHAPIRO:  Well, I can object to
17	the relevancy.  Could we take a break for a
18	moment, please?  We need to discuss
19	something.
20			MR. KLAYMAN:  No.  I want to get
21	the testimony right now.
22			MS. SHAPIRO:  We can't allow her to


				143
	1	testify until we determine whether she

	2	overheard something that is protected.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  We're going to

	4	continue with the testimony.  There's nothing
	5	that is in any way out of the ordinary.
	6		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I think at this
	7	point in time I believe we should recess.  I
	8	think the information that Ms. Tripp would

	9	divulge would include privilege.  I think
10	it's incumbent upon me because that party's
11	Linda's employer so they can ascertain
12	whether to assert the privilege.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's take a brief
14	break.
15		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
16	video record at 2:12.

17		     (Recess)
18		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
19	video record at 2:23.
20		MS. SHAPIRO:  Our privilege
21	concerns are satisfied, so we're not imposing
22	an objection.


				144
	1		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2	     Q	Thank you.  You can respond,
	3	assuming you remember the question.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Please repeat the
	5	question, Mr. Klayman.
	6		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7	     Q	I believe your testimony was that

	8	you saw William Kennedy with a stack of what
	9	you took to be FBI files under his arm

10	discussing The White House database with
11	Betsy Pond --
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
13	Mischaracterizes.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  Why don't you
15	rephrase it, Linda?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Why don't you set
17	the tone correctly, set the scene correctly,
18	and then provide the substance of that
19	conversation.
20		THE WITNESS:  What little there
21	was.  There were two such conversations which
22	I recall.  One was in the hallway in the Old


				145
	1	EOB in close proximity to Bill Kennedy's Old
	2	EOB office with Marcia Scott, and the very
	3	brief portion of the conversation that I
	4	heard before I was seen was referencing the

	5	files in his hand, which again shared that
	6	same commonality with all the other ones, but
	7	it was as though Marcia Scott was instructing
	8	Bill Kennedy, which was somewhat unusual, in
	9	my opinion, based on their differing roles,
10	about the database.
11		And the portion of the conversation
12	that I heard involved entering this
13	information into a database here at The White
14	House and shared with the DNC so that both

15	would have access to this database, whatever
16	that database might be.

17		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18	     Q	When approximately did this
19	conversation take place?  What year was it?
20	     A	I believe, and again I'm vague on
21	the time, it had to have been either very
22	late in '93 or very early in '94.  I was


			146
	1	always sensitive to Marcia Scott issues
	2	because technically The White House counsel's
	3	office, Bruce Lindsey and Vince Foster, had

	4	brokered a deal with Marcia Scott who owned
	5	me on paper and who had agreed to allow me to
	6	accept a position with Bernie Nussbuam and be
	7	assigned on paper to the counsel's office but
	8	belong technically to correspondence from
	9	whence I came, which allowed me to maintain
10	the apolitical nature of my appointment and
11	thus my viability through differing opposing
12	administrations.
13	          So there had been some tension with
14	Marcia Scott and myself from early on having
15	to do with roles and functions from the early
16	days of the administration.  So, in any
17	event, whenever Marcia Scott was speaking to
18	anybody in the counsel's office, I was
19	somewhat wary, and so I listened whenever I
20	could.  This was one such time.
21	     Q    Now, you touched on a number of

22	issues.  Let's take them one by one.  The


					147
	1	entry into the database, did you take that to

	2	mean the files that Mr. Kennedy was carrying
	3	at the time?
	4		A	Yes.
	5		Q	And these were the files that had
	6	the same characteristics as what you
	7	understood to be FBI files?
	8		A	Yeah.  It was relatively speaking
	9	in a very short window of time to the
10	conversation I had had with Betsy Pond about
11	FBI files.  So, I mean, this wasn't -- and
12	still I wasn't seeing any sort of nefarious
13	intent here.  It just was something I was
14	taking in.
15		Q	Well, because at that time you
16	didn't know about the FBI files controversy?
17		A	No.
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
19			THE WITNESS:  Well, I was not

20	cognizant at all of this being possibly
21	something illegal or something in violation
22	of privacy.  I had just assumed that, if it


					148
	1	was done at The White House, for the most
	2	part it was a government agency and they knew

	3	what they were doing.  I mean, it just didn't
	4	register as a problem at that point.  Only
	5	the seeds had been planted, shall we say, but
	6	not anything concrete.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	And you said at the time that you
	9	took note of this conversation because of the
10	differing roles of William Kennedy and Marcia
11	Scott, correct?
12		A	Correct.
13		Q	What were those differing roles?

14		A	Well, my experience had been that
15	-- well, first of all, Bill Kennedy, as a
16	rather senior associate in The White House

17	counsel's office with seemingly a great deal
18	more influence than his peers, and Marcia
19	Scott, who was at that time the director of
20	presidential correspondence, whose
21	interaction with The White House counsel's
22	office at that level on a professional basis


				149
	1	had been rather limited.
	2		We had -- I was able to observe
	3	from early May on the comings and goings and

	4	the phone calls of the senior staff and the
	5	principals in my office, Marcia Scott, wasn't
	6	one other than to invite Vince on Tuesday
	7	nights to their Arkansan reunion dinners.  So
	8	it was something that I took note of when she
	9	popped up.
10	     Q	You said that William Kennedy's
11	influence seemed to be greater than what his
12	position would ordinarily create?
13		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
14		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15	     Q	That was your impression.  He was
16	an associate counsel, correct?
17	     A	Yeah, and at this point in time I
18	don't remember whether he had just a slightly
19	more illustrious title than associate
20	counsel, but it was, in any event, I don't
21	believe much different from Beth Nolan or
22	some of the folks who were also associates in


					150
	1	the counsel's office.
	2		Q	You understood him to have
	3	tremendous influence?
	4		A	Oh, absolutely.
	5			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	6			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7		Q	And was your understanding based

	8	upon his prior relationship at the Rose Law
	9	Firm with Hillary Clinton?
10			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
11	Foundation.
12			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

13		Q	You can respond.
14		A	I believe that my impression was
15	formed earlier than that.  It was in the

16	immediate office of the President when I was
17	first introduced to Bill Kennedy along with
18	Vince Foster and several others at which time
19	his value and importance to the
20	administration and to the Clintons was made
21	quite plain to me.
22		Q	And who made it plain to you?


				151
	1	     A	Bruce Lindsey, Deb Coyle, Nancy
	2	Hernreich.
	3	     Q	And what did one or more of them
	4	tell you about his importance to the
	5	administration, and identify who it was?
	6	     A	I'm sorry.  I can't remember who

	7	said what at that -- my impression from all
	8	of them was that he was a valued friend and
	9	extremely loyal former partner; in fact, I
10	believe they had said managing partner of
11	Mrs. Clinton's law firm along with Vince

12	Foster, who had also been a partner,
13	apparently, and it was a very close -- a
14	feeling of closeness that was relayed to me.
15		In other words, his calls were
16	taken far more easily than, say, someone else
17	of his position.  In fact, frequently -- I'm
18	trying to think of another associate who
19	might have called at that time Bruce Lindsey,
20	who was senior advisor to the President at
21	that time, or the President or Nancy
22	Hernreich directly, and I can't think of any.


					152
	1		Q	Were you aware of Marcia Scott's

	2	importance to the Clintons at the time you
	3	observed that conversation?
	4			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	5			THE WITNESS:  I was aware of how

	6	Marcia Scott portrayed her importance to the
	7	Clintons at that point in time.
	8			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	9		Q	She had portrayed it to you?

10		A	Mm-hmm, and to anyone else who
11	would listen.
12		Q	And what did she tell you about her
13	importance vis-a-vis the Clintons?
14		A	That she was a valued friend for

15	many years, had been a former girlfriend of
16	the President, still enjoyed a very close
17	relationship with the President.
18		Q	What do you mean by "close"?

19		A	She said a very close relationship.
20	There were opportunities on weekends when we
21	were working where she would often intimate
22	that she was hopping over to the residence to


				153
	1	see the President and watch a football game

	2	and that sort of thing.  It was her way of
	3	letting us know that she was an insider.  We
	4	certainly got the message.
	5	     Q	Did there come a point in time when
	6	you became aware that she had involvement
	7	with President Clinton's alleged prior
	8	relationships?
	9		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
10	object and instruct the witness not to
11	respond to that inquiry because I don't
12	believe it's in any way relevant.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll hold it for
14	later.  It's getting to the threat issue but
15	I'll hold it for later.
16		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
17	Relevance.
18		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19	     Q	You are aware, are you not,
20	Ms. Tripp, of articles that have been written
21	by people such as Dick Morris who have stated
22	that Marcia Scott was the person who dealt


						154
	1	with the so-called bimbo problem of the
	2	President?
	3			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form and
	4	relevance.
	5			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Are you aware of
	6	the articles?
	7			THE WITNESS:  I heard the question.
	8	May I answer it?
	9			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes.
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11		Q	Yes.
12		A	I don't know that I'm aware of

13	articles, and I don't recall knowing this
14	information prior to '97.
15		Q	Did she ever tell you that one of
16	her roles in her association with President
17	Clinton was to keep people who might expose
18	things about his past from doing so?

19			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
20	Relevance.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

22		Q	You can respond.


					155
	1		A	No, not in that way.  I for better
	2	or worse coined the term "protecters," the
	3	protecters, the facilitators, the graduates,
	4	and Marcia was the original graduate in my

	5	book.  She was not what I perceived at the
	6	time to be a protecter.
	7		Q	What is a protecter?
	8		A	For my purposes, protecter would
	9	have been Betty -- Bruce --
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Excuse me for a
11	second.
12			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
13			THE WITNESS:  In my mind, the
14	protecters were the individuals who either

15	were assigned or took upon theirselfs the
16	role of protecting the President, often from
17	himself.
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	And who were those people?
20			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
21	object.
22			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.


					156
	1		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I think again
	2	we're way far afield.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  We're dealing here

	4	with a bona fide Clinton controversy called
	5	Filegate, and I want to know who the
	6	protecters are that may have protected him
	7	from that controversy.  This is discovery

	8	that may lead to relevant evidence.
	9		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'd like to

10	suggest a more appropriate question which
11	might be does Mrs. Tripp know of any people

12	who were protecting the President's interest
13	with respect to Filegate.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  She may or may not
15	know about that but the issue is whether I
16	can go beyond that because of discovery.  If
17	she doesn't have a direct hit, that still

18	doesn't mean I can't find out who she thought
19	the protecters were.  Then I can go out and
20	depose and ask if they have knowledge about
21	Filegate.
22		MS. SHAPIRO:  There's a court order


					157
	1	on the table, Mr. Klayman.
	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  There's a lot of
	3	things on the table but the court order is
	4	not one of them that's relevant to this
	5	question.
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  It does say that this
	7	inquiry will be limited to the FBI files
	8	matter.
	9		MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes, you take that
10	direct hit, Ms. Shapiro, and I'll be very
11	happy to go into court because obviously you
12	know that is not the scope of the judge's
13	order, and I'm entitled to gather information

14	of people who may have knowledge about this
15	controversy and this question was posed in a
16	very neutral sense.
17		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18	     Q	Who are the protecters?  I don't
19	see that it's objectionable.
20		MS. SHAPIRO:  We think it's
21	objectionable and I register my objection

22	that it's outside the scope of the court's


				158
	1	order.
	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'd like to get an
	3	answer to that question.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You may answer.

	5		THE WITNESS:  Again, this is only
	6	my perception, so I don't know how important
	7	that is.  My perception at the time was that
	8	Evelyn Lieberman was a protecter, Bruce
	9	Lindsey was a protecter, Nancy Hernreich was
10	a protecter.
11		There were a couple of other ones
12	that right now the names just don't -- I may
13	have testified to this -- in fact, I believe
14	I did, to the grand jury, a complete list of
15	those people I consider to be protecters.
16		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17	     Q	Is that testimony public now?  Do
18	you know?
19	     A	I think so.
20	     Q	What relationship, if any, did
21	Lieberman have with Hillary Clinton?

22		     (Witness conferred with counsel)


				159
	1		THE WITNESS:  The extent of my
	2	knowledge, again, is only firsthand
	3	observation and hearsay, the things that

	4	people have passed on to me.  When I met
	5	Evelyn Lieberman, she was -- I was told she
	6	was Hillary's executive assistant in the Old
	7	EOB and in fact she was one with whom I
	8	interacted relatively frequently when I was
	9	working in the counsel's office.  Is there
10	something up there?
11		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12	     Q	Is that light bothering you?
13	     A	I'm probably squinting just
14	because --
15		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's go off the
16	record for a second.
17		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
18	video record at 2:38.

19		     (Recess)
20		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
21	video record at 2:39.
22		BY MR. KLAYMAN:


					160
	1		Q	Did anyone ever tell you that
	2	Ms. Lieberman was effectively the eyes and

	3	ears of Hillary Clinton, something to that
	4	effect?
	5			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	6			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
	7			THE WITNESS:  Yes, more than one
	8	person.
	9			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

10		Q	And that was her reputation around
11	The White House when you were there?
12		A	At least it was the reputation that
13	I was privy to.  I don't know what other
14	people's perception was.
15		Q	Now, who were the graduates?
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
17	object and I'm going to instruct the witness
18	not to answer those questions with respect to
19	who are the graduates are.
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	What is a graduate?
22			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Again, I'll object


					161
	1	and advise her not to --
	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  This is discovery.
	3		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I understand that
	4	but this is discovery in which there is no

	5	conceivable way it will lead to admissible
	6	evidence.
	7		MR. KLAYMAN:  I would hope that we
	8	can come to some kind of understanding.
	9	We're entitled to know how The White House
10	functioned as she saw it because that has a
11	bearing on the whole Filegate controversy

12	issue.  It's hardly an intrusive question.
13		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  It's intrusive not
14	only in the nature of the question but in
15	identifying the graduates it would be
16	personally harmful and embarrassing to them
17	and having absolutely no relevance to this

18	case.  I mean none whatsoever.
19		MR. KLAYMAN:  Can I ask what a
20	graduate is?  How are you defining that?
21		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, please.

22		THE WITNESS:  Again, this was my


					162
	1	nomenclature.  It was something that just

	2	became a word that was adopted by Monica
	3	Lewinsky and others over time because it just
	4	seemed appropriate, the names -- the
	5	categories under which these people fell.  A
	6	graduate was in our -- in my opinion, the
	7	definition I used was an admitted former
	8	girlfriend of the President who had remained
	9	a loyal confidant and supporter.
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11		Q	And who still worked in the White
12	House?
13		A	Not necessarily.  Some did,
14	certainly.  By still being in The White House
15	would imply that that was part of the
16	criteria to be a graduate and that wasn't.

17		Q	You're not implying that Dustin
18	Hoffman was a graduate, are you?
19		A	I wouldn't know.  I hope not.
20			MR. GILLIGAN:  He was only a girl
21	in Tootsie.
22			THE WITNESS:  Well, I'm a man in


				163
	1	Esquire, so there you go.  What can I tell
	2	you?  I wouldn't know.  Sorry.
	3		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	4	     Q	Did there come a point in time when

	5	you heard Mr. Kennedy or Ms. Scott talk about
	6	entry into White House database other than
	7	that one instance?
	8	     A	Yeah, another conversation.
	9	Actually, this was the second conversation.
10	This time it was outside the counsel's
11	office, which was directly adjacent to -- it
12	was immediately adjacent to Mrs. Clinton's
13	office, and it was in the hallway right in
14	front of those two offices.
15		I don't believe at the time that if
16	Bill Kennedy had files with him that I

17	noticed.  He had something with him.  I
18	didn't make the connection to files during
19	that particular conversation, but he and
20	Marcia referenced files again and database
21	and referenced input of file material into
22	the database.


					164
	1			Again, it was more Marcia
	2	instructing Mr. Kennedy, and she named
	3	Mrs. Clinton and said that she, Mrs. Clinton,

	4	wanted this done.  And actually stressed the
	5	point by pointing.
	6		Q	Pointing where?  To Mrs. Clinton's
	7	office?
	8		A	Correct.  The only other she in
	9	that office, to the best of my knowledge, was
10	Pam Bennett Ciccetti, who was her -- I
11	believe her executive assistant in the West
12	Wing.
13		Q	Did you ever hear Marcia Scott use
14	the term "Big Brother"?
15		A	I don't believe I heard Marcia use
16	that term, no, but I had heard it from

17	others, and I don't recall from whom.
18		Q	And it was in the context of White
19	House databases?
20		A	Mm-hmm.
21			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
22			THE WITNESS:  Well, I -- and again


					165
	1	I don't know that this was a database.  I had

	2	heard it as it related to backup systems and
	3	the preservation of all materials.  This is
	4	prior to the time that we had -- and I think
	5	The White House might still have a system
	6	that literally identifies Presidential
	7	records or not on the computer as you go

	8	along.  Prior to that, we had not had that on
	9	the machines.
10		Q	When did The White House first get
11	that type of a system?
12		A	I think, if memory serves me
13	correctly, it was during the earlier part of
14	the first administration of President
15	Clinton, I think.
16		Q	Did there come a point in time when
17	you became aware that Marcia Scott was
18	overseeing the creation of such a system?

19			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

21		Q	You can respond.
22		A	Well, that was my sense.  I may be


					166
	1	wrong.  That's what I derived from the tone

	2	and mode and verbiage of the conversations I
	3	witnessed with she and Bill Kennedy.
	4		Q	Did you ever hear Bruce Lindsey
	5	discuss such a system?
	6		A	No.
	7		Q	Do you know whether Bruce Lindsey
	8	had access to such a database?
	9		A	I don't know.
10		Q	Now, the second time that you
11	overheard Marcia Scott and Bill Kennedy
12	talking about the database and the reference
13	to Mrs. Clinton, did he have files in his
14	hand as well?
15		A	I'm sorry.  Was that the second
16	time?
17		Q	Second time.
18		A	I don't remember.  I know -- my
19	sense is he had something in his hand, but
20	it's been -- I don't -- it doesn't stick out
21	as the way the first conversation did, and I
22	think the reason, just for clarification,


					167
	1	that that was so clear was that it was in
	2	very close proximity to the time that Betsy

	3	Pond had identified what those files were.
	4		Q	Did there come a point in time when
	5	you became aware that there were files of

	6	Republicans in The White House counsel's
	7	office?
	8		A	Yes.
	9		Q	When was that?  If it's more than
10	one time, you can list them.
11			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
12			THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  Where
13	were we?
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	Did there come a point in time when
16	you became aware that there were files of

17	Republicans in The White House counsel's
18	office?
19		A	Yes.
20			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

22		Q	When was that?


					168
	1		A	I can't tell you for certain when
	2	the first time was.  I can tell you for
	3	instance that, if the question is not limited
	4	to Republicans but people other -- other

	5	people, then I could probably give you a
	6	little more information.
	7		Q	What do you mean by "other people"?
	8		A	Well, I don't know what the
	9	politics of certain individuals might be, and
10	so I don't know what their party affiliation
11	would be.
12		Q	Do you remember specific names?

13		A	Well, yes.  Of course, there was
14	Dale, whose political leanings I just don't
15	know.  I believe he had served under, I
16	believe, four or five Presidents and in fact
17	had told me that he was completely
18	apolitical, and then the other -- excuse me
19	one moment.

20			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
21			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Is the scope of

22	that question limited to in the counsel's


					169
	1	office?
	2			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	3		Q	I'll ask first in the counsel's
	4	office and then in The White House generally.
	5		A	And then again another individual

	6	whose party affiliation I'm unfamiliar with,
	7	and that was a file that I saw in Vince
	8	Foster's safe located in Bernie Nussbuam's
	9	office, who also was unceremoniously fired --
10		Q	Who was that?
11		A	Shortly after the time I saw the
12	file.  That was Chris Emory.
13		Q	And where did he work?
14		A	He was in The White House usher's
15	office in the residence.
16		Q	When did you see that file?
17		A	Prior to his being asked to leave.
18		Q	What time period was that?
19		A	I can't remember.  I know that I

20	saw it in the same file.  I don't recall
21	seeing it the same day that I saw the Dale
22	and other files.


					170
	1		Q	But you also saw it in Bernie
	2	Nussbuam's safe that was in Bernie Nussbuam's
	3	office?
	4			MR. MAZUR:  Object to the form of
	5	the question.
	6			THE WITNESS:  I need to clarify
	7	here.  I have never seen Bernie Nussbuam with
	8	anything having to do with them.
	9			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10		Q	I'm asking whether you saw this

11	Emory file in the safe that was in Bernie
12	Nussbuam's office?
13		A	Right.  To me it's very important
14	to -- it's a fine line, and the people whose
15	safe it was and who had access to and who
16	used that safe routinely to retrieve and
17	secure did not include Bernie Nussbuam, from
18	my experience, unless he did it at midnight
19	when everyone else was home in bed.
20		Q	So you never saw Bernie Nussbuam
21	accessing the safe?
22		A	Never.


					171
	1		Q	But you can't say he never did?
	2		A	I would be willing to say he never

	3	did independent of anyone else's assistance.
	4		Q	But you don't know what he did late
	5	at night?
	6		A	He didn't develop dexterity, you
	7	know, in the evening.
	8		Q	You like Bernie Nussbuam, correct?
	9		A	I respect Bernie Nussbuam.  I like
10	him as a person but I'm not here to defend
11	his honor, if that's what you mean.
12		Q	Before the deposition today have

13	you had any contact or has your counsel had
14	any contact with lawyers for Bernie Nussbuam
15	in this case?
16		A	I don't know.  You might ask the
17	lawyers.  I have not had any contact with

18	Bernie Nussbuam since, I think, May of '94.
19	I think it was May-June time frame.
20			MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's just switch
21	with Mr. Zaccagnini right now because the
22	video's having difficulty with that shadow,


					172
	1	if you could switch seats.  Is that all
	2	right?
	3		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm not a deponent
	4	here, Mr. Klayman, and I'm not going to
	5	answer any questions.
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not asking you
	7	questions.  You're paranoid, Mr. Zaccagnini.

	8		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You were getting
	9	ready to ask me questions about contact with
10	Mr. Nussbaum's counsel, and I was not
11	intending to answer.
12		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13	     Q	Are you still wired up, Linda?
14	     A	Not yet.
15		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  That was a bad
16	pun, Mr. Klayman.
17		THE WITNESS:  Oh, please, not from
18	my own attorney.
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Let me change the
20	electronics here a little bit.  Mr. Klayman,
21	do you want Deposition Exhibit 6 back?
22		MR. FITTON:  Yes, please.


					173
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	Were there other persons whose
	3	files you saw in The White House counsel's
	4	office?
	5		A	Yes, in Bill Kennedy's office.
	6		Q	And who were they?
	7		A	This is -- I don't have a specific

	8	recollection of a lot of the names that I did
	9	see.  I can tell you that my impression from
10	the names I did see from different stacks --
11	my impression was that these were people from
12	the Bush Administration whose names were

13	familiar to me and for the most part the
14	names were of relatively low-ranking
15	employees such as myself with only a few
16	exceptions of people of relatively high
17	ranking.

18			I believe a Congressman, I think --
19	and I've discussed this with my counsel.  At
20	one point in time I believe I saw
21	Representative Clinger's file, late.  I also
22	believe that I saw a handful of senior Bush


				174
	1	Administration officials' files, and the rest
	2	were, as I said, relatively small ones.
	3		The reason that I'm hesitant to

	4	give you names is that from the time I you
	5	saw those files until the time this past

	6	year, 1998, when I actually read a full
	7	listing in one of the print outlets of the
	8	names, I'm not sure if I'm remembering from
	9	the list or from seeing them in person, so
10	I'm hesitant to be more specific.
11	     Q	This is discovery, and with that
12	qualifier you can tell us who you think you
13	remember seeing at that time with that
14	qualifier.
15		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I would caution
16	the witness not to speculate, please.

17		MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, but she has to
18	testify as to what she believes she saw.
19		THE WITNESS:  Let me tell you that
20	when I read the list at the time that the
21	list was published in The Washington Post or
22	New York Times -- I'm not sure which but it


					175
	1	was this past year in 1998 -- when I read the

	2	list, the names that I recall seeing were on
	3	the list with the exception of at least two.
	4			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5		Q	And who were the two?
	6		A	And I don't remember.  I would
	7	almost have to, and I have not refreshed my
	8	memory by looking at the list again since the
	9	time that I happened to read it that day in
10	the newspaper.
11		Q	Would Representative Clinger's be
12	one of the names that wasn't on the list?
13		A	I can't remember.  I'm sorry.
14		Q	Well, you may be able to refresh
15	your recollection now, but before we get into
16	that, when did you see these files in
17	Kennedy's office?  Was it on one occasion?
18	More than one occasion?
19		A	Many.  Many.  Now, remember, I
20	didn't know what they were.  I just knew --
21	in fact, I had thought to myself on more than
22	one occasion that this must be why the


					176
	1	vetting process is so cumbersome and so slow
	2	and why we keep taking hits routinely for
	3	being so slow in vetting the potential
	4	appointees.  But I learned during the time

	5	that Bobby Inman that the vetting files and
	6	all about vetting was completely different
	7	looking than these files.

	8		Q	Than what you had seen in Kennedy's
	9	office?
10		A	Right, and as a matter of fact he
11	intimated to me that these weren't vetting

12	files early on when I first asked him the
13	question.  So, putting all the pieces
14	together that I was exposed to, there was a
15	pretty connect-the-dots sort of way to see
16	they weren't -- I knew what they weren't.  I

17	just didn't know what they were, and I didn't
18	know the significance of what they were.
19		Q	Let's back up.  Were you in

20	Kennedy's office on a routine basis?
21		A	I wouldn't say on a routine basis
22	but on several occasions, yes.  We often


					177
	1	would chat about his adopted babies, and he

	2	was then going through marital difficulties
	3	and would talk about that and the difficulty
	4	of having to be separated from his children,
	5	financial, that sort of thing.  He was very
	6	nice, and I had I think a very nice cordial
	7	relationship with Mr. Kennedy.
	8		Q	When was the first time
	9	approximately you were in his office?
10		A	I believe I did not go over to his
11	office until I moved to the counsel's office
12	in May of '94 -- I'm sorry -- May of '93.
13		Q	And what was the occasion that you
14	first went into his office?
15		A	I have no idea.  I mean, I really
16	don't remember.  I was over across the Old
17	EOB relatively frequently.
18		Q	Did you go into his office for
19	business matters from time to time?
20		A	Sometimes, sure.

21		Q	And what were the types of business
22	matters that you would go into his office


			178
	1	for?
	2	     A    Oh, often I'd be going to the
	3	credit union and Bernie would need something

	4	from Bill or wanted to pass something on, and
	5	I said I just wanted to stop by on the way
	6	back or off to lunch or something like that.
	7	Bernie didn't go to the Old EOB routinely.

	8	          There were times when I chose to
	9	visit Mr. Kennedy to address issues of

10	concern that I thought and in fact that
11	Bernie had suggested Bill would be the

12	appropriate person with whom to discuss these
13	issues.  And so occasionally I would go over
14	there, and I think I had those sorts of
15	conversations on at least two occasions if
16	not more.
17	          But there were frequent other times
18	when it wasn't with a bona fide business
19	agenda in which we had casual conversations
20	for a good ten minutes in his office where we
21	discussed the architecture, we discussed the
22	beautiful framed photographs of his family on


					179
	1	the mantle or we discussed the stacks and
	2	stacks of files in his office.
	3		Q	Did you discuss the stacks and

	4	stacks of files in his office with him?
	5		A	Yeah.  I made a joke that the --
	6	it's no wonder vetting is just a significant
	7	problem, if this is what -- if this was an

	8	indication of the files of those yet to be
	9	vetted or those in the midst of being vetted.
10			He said, "These aren't those.
11	They're over there," and he pointed to the

12	area in which he later said Beth Nolan sat,
13	and I made some comment about, well, then
14	what are these, and he just shook his head
15	and never told me what they were.
16		Q	What did you take the shaking of
17	the head to mean?
18		A	Just like, oh, don't ask me, that
19	kind of thing.  It was just frustrated.
20		Q	Did the files that he was shaking

21	his head about look physically like the other
22	files that were part of the vetting process?


					180
	1	     A	Yeah, they did -- oh no, vetting,
	2	no, not at all like the vetting ones based on
	3	what I later saw with Bobby Inman and a few
	4	other candidates that were being vetted
	5	during the -- it wasn't the attorney general
	6	vetting.  It was vetting for one of the
	7	Supreme Court -- two of the Supreme Court
	8	justice nominees, Steven --
	9		MS. SHAPIRO:  I just want to
10	caution the witness not to mention the names

11	of vetting candidates, administration vetting
12	candidates.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  Why?
14		MS. SHAPIRO:  Because it's not
15	relevant and there are privacy issues and the
16	entire motion, I think, regarding that issue.
17		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not asking what's
18	in the files.
19		MS. SHAPIRO:  The names are

20	themselves something that we would --
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me back up and
22	we'll undoubtedly have to argue about that.


					181
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	In terms of the files that he

	3	pointed to and shook his head, did you
	4	understand those files to be FBI files?
	5		A	At the time?
	6		Q	Yes.

	7		A	At the time I don't think so.  At
	8	the time I didn't know what I was seeing.

	9		Q	Did you subsequently understand
10	those files to concern FBI files?
11		A	Well, it was the same stacks,
12	literally, of files with very little

13	exception or at least not discernible
14	exception that Betsy Pond later referred to
15	as FBI files many months later.
16		Q	She pointed to those files and said
17	those are FBI files?
18		A	Mm-hmm.  That was during the
19	conversation in which she identified them,
20	yes.
21		Q	Was that during the same
22	conversation where she told you she was


						182
	1	loading them on to computers?
	2			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	3			THE WITNESS:  No, that was a
	4	separate conversation.
	5			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	6		Q	Now, were there files strewn all

	7	over Kennedy's office when you would go in
	8	there?
	9			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
10			THE WITNESS:  No.

11			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12		Q	Where were these files located that
13	he was shaking his head about?
14		A	Everywhere in stacks.
15		Q	What do you mean by "everywhere"?
16		A	He had a large office, and Old EOB
17	offices are rather roomy, and they were
18	everywhere.  You had to -- there are -- the
19	desk was in the middle of the office facing
20	the doorway in a sense across from the mantel
21	and the fireplace surround, and I don't
22	recall his desk being significantly cluttered


					183
	1	one way or another.  It was not like Vince's

	2	desk, certainly, or like Bernie's desk, but
	3	it looked like a work desk.  But the stacks
	4	were what caught one's eye.
	5		Q	Were they stacked up on a table?

	6		A	Yes, and on the floor, and I didn't
	7	know how they didn't fall.
	8		Q	How high were the stacks?
	9		A	Relatively high.  For instance, I
10	would stand in front of his desk when I would
11	speak to him, and some of the files were hip
12	high.  I'm five-eight and he's five-ten, so
13	do the math.
14		Q	How many stacks were there at any
15	given point in time, generally?
16		A	I never counted them.  A lot.  My
17	impression of Bill Kennedy's office from that
18	day forward never changed, and that was that
19	he was the keeper of more files than I'd ever
20	seen in my life, which is why when the FBI

21	issue -- excuse me, FBI file issue became a
22	public issue I was surprised at the number


					184
	1	that seemed to be associated with the file

	2	issue because it seemed so very many more
	3	than 900, if those in fact were the FBI
	4	files.
	5	     Q	In other words, what you saw in
	6	Kennedy's office when you worked in the White
	7	House counsel's office were many more than

	8	the 900 that were reported to have been the
	9	FBI files that came over to The White House?
10		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
11		THE WITNESS:  That was my
12	impression.  I didn't count them but it
13	seemed so to me.
14		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, is
15	this a good time for a mid-afternoon break?
16		MR. KLAYMAN:  Just a few more
17	questions and then we can take one.  Do you
18	want to take a nap?

19		THE WITNESS:  Is that offer open to
20	all of us?  Well, he's heard all this before.
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  We need a little
22	levity.


				185
	1		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2	     Q	Were there files other than what
	3	you saw in Mr. Kennedy's office that you

	4	thought were FBI files?  I'm not talking
	5	about those you saw on Ms. Pond's desk or

	6	under Mr. Kennedy's arm when he was talking
	7	to Ms. Scott, but did you ever see other
	8	files around The White House that in
	9	retrospect looked like the files that you
10	have identified as FBI files?
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
12		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Other than those
13	already described.
14		THE WITNESS:  We've distributed
15	everything, have we not?
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes.
17		THE WITNESS:  I believe I've been
18	fully -- to the best of my knowledge, I've
19	covered fully the areas in which I think I
20	saw these same files, yes.

21		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22	     Q	Did you ever see the files in


					186
	1	offices other than Mr. Foster's safe in
	2	Mr. Nussbaum's office, Mr. Kennedy's office,
	3	Ms. Pond's desk, under the arms of
	4	Mr. Kennedy, and Mr. Livingstone's office?
	5			MR. MAZUR:  I object to the form of
	6	the question.
	7		Q	Was there any other place that you

	8	saw files that in retrospect you believe were
	9	FBI files?
10		A	Did you say in Mr. Nussbaum's
11	office?
12			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  The safe.
13			THE WITNESS:  Vince Foster's safe
14	in Mr. Nussbaum's office.  I'm sorry.  Did

15	you mention Mr. Livingstone's office?
16			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17		Q	Yes.  Mr. Livingstone's office,
18	Mr. Foster's office, Mr. Foster's safe in

19	Mr. Nussbaum's office, Mr. Kennedy's office,
20	Ms. Pond's desk and under the arm of
21	Mr. Kennedy when he was talking to Ms. Scott.
22		A	And you said Vince Foster's desk,


					187
	1	didn't you?
	2		Q	Right.
	3		A	I don't believe I saw them at any
	4	other time.
	5		Q	Or in any other place?
	6		A	No, that's what I meant.  Sorry.

	7			MR. KLAYMAN:  We can take a break
	8	here.
	9			THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Going off video
10	record at 3:06.
11			     (Recess)
12			THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
13	video record at 3:26.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	Ms. Tripp, you stated that you saw
16	these stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's office
17	and you had more than one occasion to be in
18	that office.  Roughly speaking, how many

19	occasions were you in his office, just
20	roughly?
21		A	Yeah, easily ten.
22		Q	And the times that you came in to


					188
	1	talk about personnel matters with certain

	2	individuals, that was what, two or three?
	3		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

	4		THE WITNESS:  Issues pertaining to
	5	White House business of some nature would
	6	have been at least three.

	7		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8	     Q	When did you become aware that some
	9	of the files that you had seen in that office
10	were Republican files such as Congressman
11	Clinger?
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

13		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I don't believe
14	for the record, Mr. Klayman, she was ever
15	aware that they were Republican files.  She
16	recognized some names without knowledge of

17	particular parties.  I don't mean to suggest
18	her testimony but I want to be clear on the
19	record.
20		MR. KLAYMAN:  Please don't.
21		THE WITNESS:  Just to clarify that
22	the names with which I was familiar were


					189
	1	names that I had known in the Bush White
	2	House, so to the extent that those folks were
	3	Republicans, that may have been a leap for
	4	me.  I know I was part of the Bush
	5	Administration and I was not a Republican.

	6	So maybe we shouldn't characterize them as
	7	Republican files.  Maybe I've been remiss in
	8	referring to them that way.
	9			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10		Q	You understand that Congressman
11	Clinger is a Republican?
12		A	Yes, I understand that.
13		Q	When did it hit you that you had
14	seen files from the Bush White House?  Was it
15	when you were in the office or after you
16	left?
17		A	No, I knew that simultaneously.
18	That was instantly recognizable to me.
19		Q	And did you see the names of
20	individuals that were not holdover employees?
21		A	Yes.  Yes.  In fact --
22		Q	Roughly how many -- I'm sorry.


					190
	1		A	In Bill Kennedy's office I don't

	2	recall seeing holdover names at all.  The
	3	only holdover names that I recall with any

	4	level of specificity would be Chris Emory and
	5	Billy Dale and again Dale only the last name.
	6		Q	In all the times you were in Bill
	7	Kennedy's office, how many files did you take
	8	note of in terms of the names on files, just
	9	roughly speaking?  Hundreds?
10		A	Oh, no.  No, not anywhere near.
11	Handfuls.
12		Q	How many handfuls?
13		A	It was the tops of stacks, so
14	however many happened to be in my radius of
15	vision.  No, I didn't see -- there may well
16	have been hundreds in stacks, but I only saw
17	the top one.
18		Q	So when you say "handfuls" how many
19	handfuls roughly?
20		A	I hate having to qualify something.
21			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you cannot
22	quantify properly, then don't.


				191
	1		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2	     Q	You can give me an estimate.  This
	3	is discovery.
	4	     A	I know, but I think if you're
	5	giving an estimate you should at least be

	6	somewhat -- you should be in the ballpark.
	7	     Q	This evidence will have to be ruled
	8	upon before it is used at trial, so you can
	9	give me an estimate roughly speaking.
10		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you have any

11	basis of knowledge from which to provide an
12	estimate, go ahead.  If you can't, then
13	don't.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'd appreciate it,
15	Mr. Zaccagnini.  I know you're trying to be
16	"helpful," but don't try to put words in the
17	witness' mouth.
18		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, I'll
19	instruct my client as I deem appropriate.
20	I've instructed her not to speculate on your
21	answer.
22		MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I'm asking for


					192
	1	an estimate.
	2		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  She's indicated
	3	she cannot provide you an estimate.
	4		MR. KLAYMAN:  She did not indicate
	5	that, and please certify this.
	6		THE WITNESS:  Let me just say for
	7	the record that I take this oath very
	8	seriously and I have put everything in my
	9	life on the line for the ability to tell the
10	truth under oath.  To me to speculate right
11	now under oath is something I'm just not
12	comfortable with.
13		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14	     Q	You said handfuls.  Is it two or

15	three handfuls, four handfuls?  What are we
16	talking about, tens of files?
17		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Can you answer the
18	question, Mrs. Tripp?
19		THE WITNESS:  I can't.
20		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Next question.

21		MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Zaccagnini, if
22	you keep interjecting like that I'm going to


					193
	1	ask the court tomorrow to pose the questions

	2	in court and I'm going to ask that Ms. Tripp
	3	be there at the time.
	4		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Well, she's not
	5	available --
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  The please do not
	7	intercede in my questioning.
	8		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I will when I
	9	believe it's appropriate for me to protect my
10	client's interests, Mr. Klayman.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  We have a myriad of
12	discussions in court orders with regard to
13	speaking objections which give answers to the
14	witness.  That is not appropriate.
15		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I was not giving
16	answers to the witness.
17		MR. KLAYMAN:  That is no protecting
18	the witness.  That's impeding the deposition.
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  She indicated she
20	could not answer the question.  I believe

21	you're badgering the witness, Mr. Klayman,
22	move on.


					194
	1		MR. KLAYMAN:  No, I'm not badgering
	2	the witness.  I'm taking issue with you.
	3		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  The witness has
	4	indicated that she cannot answer the question

	5	and she will not answer the question because
	6	she cannot provide an estimate. She has no
	7	basis of knowledge.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  You've asserted that
	9	to her.
10		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I said if you have
11	a basis of knowledge.  I was not suggesting
12	the answer.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  Do you want to go out
14	and talk for a few minutes?
15		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  No, I'm fine.

16		MR. KLAYMAN:  All right.  Well,
17	that's fine.  Certify it.

18		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19	     Q	Did you see the names of holdover
20	employees when you were in Kennedy's office
21	on those files?
22	     A	I don't recall seeing holdover


					195
	1	names specifically.  My recollection is that

	2	there may have been one name which escapes me
	3	at the moment which was clearly a holdover,

	4	and I think, if I could refresh my memory by
	5	revisiting the list that I saw published in
	6	the print media, I think once again I may be

	7	able to pick out that name, but at this point
	8	in time, no.  I didn't ever make a note of
	9	the names and never committed to memory the
10	names.
11			I do know that when I revisited the
12	published list in the newspaper and actually
13	went over it line by line it helped me
14	remember those names that I had seen because
15	I remember saying, "I saw those."
16		Q	Now, in terms of the names that you
17	saw that were not holdovers, did you see more
18	than five from the Bush White House?
19		A	Yes.
20		Q	More than ten?
21		A	I don't know.  I don't know.  It
22	was several.  I wish I could be more specific


					196
	1	for you, but honestly under oath I'm loathe

	2	to do that when I am not able to quantify.
	3		Q	Did you see any names of
	4	individuals that you knew to be appointments
	5	or proposed appointments to the Clinton
	6	administration?
	7		A	No, I know I saw no such names.
	8		Q	I show you what I'll ask the court
	9	reporter to mark as Exhibit 7.
10		A	Excuse me.  Unless it's possible
11	that they were considering appointing former
12	Bush officials.  I mean, I --
13		Q	Do you know of any that were
14	appointed to anything?
15		A	No.

16		Q	You say that you had a conversation
17	with Bobby Inman at some point?
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

19			THE WITNESS:  No, I did not have a
20	conversation with Bobby Inman.  Actually, I
21	did but that's not what I said.
22			BY MR. KLAYMAN:


					197
	1		Q	What did you say?
	2		A	I said it was during his vetting
	3	process that I became familiar with and then
	4	began noticing, paying more attention to
	5	vetting files than I had in previous months.
	6		Q	What was it about his vetting

	7	process that caused you to do that, if
	8	anything?
	9			MS. SHAPIRO:  I need to stop at
10	this point because we are not going to permit
11	testimony about somebody's vetting.
12			MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not asking that
13	question.
14			MS. SHAPIRO:  I just want to make
15	it clear so that that's not the answer that
16	we get.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18		Q	You can respond.
19		A	Well, I will say that his file or
20	his -- the records which The White House used
21	in vetting Mr. Inman were in plain view
22	frequently during that time period up till


					198
	1	and including his statement to the media in

	2	which he, I believe, if I recall correctly,
	3	withdrew his nomination or withdrew his name
	4	from consideration.  And so, to the extent
	5	that I became more familiar with vetting
	6	files, that was one case.  There were others.
	7		Q	Well, let me just ask you.  What do
	8	you mean by "plain view"?
	9		A	Oh, on Deb Gorham's desk.  I
10	believe at that time, if I'm not mistaken,

11	Joel Kline was now the deputy counsel and
12	prior to that time -- on Joel Kline's desk,
13	I'm sorry -- and then prior to that time

14	during other vetting of senior appointees,
15	and I mean very senior, during Vince Foster's
16	lifetime there were other such vetting files
17	that were frequently in our office.
18		Q	In whose office?
19		A	The counsel office suite.
20		Q	Was it a practice to leave vetting
21	files out in the open where people could see
22	them on desks?


				199
	1	     A	No, I don't think that's the case
	2	at all.  I think we were in very close
	3	quarters, very close quarters.  Have you been
	4	in the counsel's office suite?
	5	     Q	Not yet.  We'll be asking to do
	6	that shortly.
	7	     A	Well, then, maybe it will give you
	8	a better understanding of what I mean by
	9	"close quarters."  I didn't notice any
10	particular lackadaisical attitude about these

11	files at all.  I do think, though, that there
12	was a space problem, and if someone

13	inadvertently or just in passing put
14	something on a desk or left it out in the
15	open, it was certainly not for public view
16	and would not have been.
17		We were very careful, generally
18	speaking, and I don't think we were

19	considered the support staff in any way to be
20	-- certainly didn't have a need to know but
21	we were not considered threatening in any

22	way.


					200
	1		Q	Mr. Kennedy's office, for instance,

	2	where you saw these stacks of files, did they
	3	look like -- I forgot the name of the word,

	4	but there's stacks coming out of the floor
	5	all over the place.  Is that the impression
	6	it had when you'd walk in there?
	7			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	8			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

	9		Q	You can respond.
10		A	On the floor stacks and on tables
11	stacks.
12		Q	Like icicles coming up from the
13	ground?
14		A	Is that stalagmites or stalactites?
15		Q	I forgot it.  You learn that in
16	grade school.
17		A	They didn't taper at the ends but
18	other than that --
19		Q	And you literally had to navigate
20	your way through them?
21		A	There was an opening between his

22	desk and the fireplace surround that was


					201
	1	free, and the rest of it was pretty much
	2	stacks.
	3		Q	Stalactites and stalagmites?
	4		A	I guess, yes.
	5		Q	Were those put away at night, those
	6	files, do you know?
	7		A	Where would you put all those files
	8	at night?  I don't understand.  I'm not
	9	making myself plain.
10		Q	The answer's no?
11		A	Well, unless one of those hand
12	trucks came by, yes, the answer's no.
13		Q	Was Mr. Kennedy's office locked at
14	night?
15		A	I don't know.
16		Q	Was there a procedure that you know
17	of to lock the offices of Mr. Kennedy or
18	Mr. Foster or anyone in that suite?
19			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

20			MR. MAZUR:  Objection to form.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

22		Q	You can respond.


					202
	1		A	Remember that that wasn't in the
	2	same suite.  Mr. Kennedy's office was located
	3	on -- I'm sorry, I can't remember the floor

	4	now but in the Old Executive Office Building
	5	and my experience in the --
	6		Q	He was not in the same suite with
	7	Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Foster?
	8		A	No, they were in the West Wing of
	9	The White House proper.
10		Q	And those offices were adjacent?
11		A	Yes, those two were.
12		Q	And you sat outside those offices?
13		A	Yes.
14		Q	Along with Ms. Gorham and Ms. Pond?
15		A	No.  Ms. Pond was there when I got
16	there, as was Ms. Gorham.
17		Q	But you all sat outside those
18	offices?
19		A	We did.
20		Q	Do you know of any procedure to
21	lock Mr. Kennedy's office at night?
22		A	My experience, there was a time


			203
	1	when I was removed from the West Wing, May of
	2	'94, and housed in the counsel's office of
	3	the Old Executive Office Building while I was

	4	conducting my job search, at which time I was
	5	often there at "close of business" and often
	6	close of business in The White House can be
	7	any hour of the night, but I did observe
	8	that, as had been the case in the previous
	9	administration, the doors may have been
10	locked, but there was no additional secured
11	mechanism to secure the office as there had
12	been in the West Wing.
13	     Q    Do you know who had keys to
14	Mr. Kennedy's office?
15	     A    I don't know, other than Betsy Pond
16	and Bill Kennedy.  I have no firsthand
17	knowledge about anyone else within that suite
18	because it was a suite.  It was a door which
19	opened up into an anteroom where Betsy Pond
20	sat and where Deb Gorham had sat previously,
21	same desk, then Bill Kennedy's office off of
22	that and other, smaller offices off that same


					204
	1	reception area.
	2		Q	Who had keys to the office of Vince
	3	Foster and Bernie Nussbuam when you were in
	4	The White House counsel's office?
	5		A	I'm sorry.  Who had keys to the
	6	main door of the counsel's office in the West
	7	Wing; is that the question?
	8		Q	Let's start with that.
	9		A	I did, Vince, Bernie, Betsy,
10	Deborah, and I'm not sure if Tom Castleton
11	did, and it's possible that later our
12	volunteers may have.
13		Q	How about their own proper offices?
14	Who had keys to Bernie Nussbuam's office?

15		A	I can't, as we sit here today,
16	remember if Bernie's office had a lock.  I do
17	know that Vince's office didn't have a lock
18	until one was installed after his death.

19		Q	How soon after his death was it
20	installed?
21		A	Relatively soon.
22		Q	Within days?


					205
	1		A	I remember a very short period
	2	because it had been guarded for some time by
	3	uniformed and protective detail and then a
	4	lock was put on so that that wouldn't be
	5	necessary.
	6		Q	You previously testified with

	7	regard to Vince Foster's safe in Bernie
	8	Nussbuam's office.  Is there anyone else

	9	other than the persons you mentioned who had
10	the combination to that safe?

11		A	I don't believe so.
12		Q	And who were those persons, again?
13		A	Excuse me.  I should caveat that.
14	I believe Steve Neuwirth and Cliff Sloan may
15	have had the combination.
16		Q	And who in addition to those two
17	individuals?
18		A	The ones I have already listed more
19	than once.  Do it again?
20			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Sure, one more
21	time.
22			THE WITNESS:  Vince Foster, Betsy


				206
	1	Pond, Deborah Gorham, myself, Linda Tripp,
	2	Tony Marceca, and I believe Craig
	3	Livingstone.  I don't know about the others.
	4	And Bernie, I'm sure, had the combination,

	5	but, as I've stated repeatedly, he couldn't
	6	open it.
	7		MR. KLAYMAN:  Showing you what I'll
	8	ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 7.
	9	This is a list that has been produced with

10	regard to the FBI files that we know of at
11	this time are subject to this case.  It was
12	this list that was published in The 
13	Washington Times.

14		     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 7
15		     was marked for identification.)
16		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the
17	characterization, which we would take issue
18	with.
19		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20	     Q	Exhibit 7 contains a cover page,

21	Cara Leslie Alexander et al. v. FBI, and it
22	spans Bates number 3122 through and including


					207
	1	3144.  That's how lawyers identify numbered
	2	documents, Ms. Tripp.  You probably know
	3	that.
	4		A	I've heard that.
	5		Q	Turning to page 1, that's the third

	6	page in, 3122, if you can run down that list
	7	and tell me page by page whether this

	8	refreshes your recollection as to what
	9	documents you saw in William Kennedy's
10	office?
11		A	I have a problem.  I have no
12	glasses.
13			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  One second,

14	Mr. Klayman.  Mrs. Tripp didn't bring her
15	reading glasses, Mr. Klayman.  She's going to
16	be unable to read these items herself, and if
17	you like we can take a break and I can read
18	them to her or we can do this again when we
19	reconvene.
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	I can read them.  I'll read them.
22	Carol Blym Aarhus, Hellen Theresa Abdoo,


					208
	1	Lunelisa Suralta Abiera, Douglas Conrad
	2	Adair, David Spears Addington.  If any of

	3	these names ring a bell, please stop me.
	4	Joseph Whitehouse Agin, Frederick Leonard

	5	Aheran, Clifford Thomas Alderman, Gary Warren
	6	Alrich.
	7			Does that name ring a bell of files
	8	that you saw?
	9		A	Not for the reasons that you are
10	asking.
11		Q	Any files that you remember that

12	you may have seen.  Cara Leslie Alexander,
13	James William Allen, James Newby Allison,
14	Melissa Co Allison, David Ernest Alsobrook,
15	Richard Gus Alvarez, Douglas Randolph

16	Ambrose, Deborah Ann Amend, Joan Marie
17	Amick --
18		A	Stop.  That name was one, and it's
19	pronounced "Amend," and I particularly
20	noticed that because I worked for her at one
21	point.
22		Q	And what was her position?


					209
	1		A	Special assistant to the President
	2	for media relations.
	3		Q	And who did she report to?
	4		A	She reported -- she was hired
	5	through John Sununu.  She reported to the
	6	assistant to the President for what was then
	7	called media affairs.
	8		Q	Did she have direct contact with
	9	President Bush?
10		A	Yes, and she often traveled with

11	the President and his traveling party as
12	well.
13		Q	And she was a political appointee?
14		A	Yes.
15		Q	I. Linus Amonsingii, Ann Elizabeth
16	Anderson, Curtis Willey Anderson, Deborah Rae
17	Anderson, Delores Mary Anderson, Ellis
18	Alfonso Anderson, John David Anderson,
19	Rebecca Lee Anderson, Stanton Dean Anderson,
20	Susan Elizabeth Anderson, Gary John Anores,
21	Edward Appell, Michelle Lorraine Archambault,
22	Kristen Clark Ardleigh, Jacquelyn Grace


			210
	1	Arends, Linda Lugenia Arey, Jocelyn Argaritt,
	2	Rebecca Anne Armendariz, Robert Kelly
	3	Armfeld, Patricia Sue Aronsson, Leslye Alene
	4	Arshiy, Marion Louise Asare, Hosea Asberry
	5	Jr., Mark Anthony Ashley, M. Adel
	6	Aslani-Fary, Michael James Astrue, Carolyn

	7	Florence Atkinson, Dennis Maurice Atkinson,
	8	Lisa Benkert Auel, Barbara McCauley
	9	Augustine, Tammy Bloo O-u-p-p-e-r-l-e --

10	     A    Well, even I can see that starts
11	with an A.
12	     Q    Thank you.  Susan Marie Auther, and
13	that's a little French pronunciation.  Leonid
14	Avrasov, Donald Belton Ayer, Holly Barragan
15	Baca, Charles Edward Bacarisse, Christena

16	Lynne Bach, Christine Anne Baer, Shelton Ray
17	Bagley, Mary Stewa Smallpage Bailey, Shirley
18	Doretha Bailey, Yvonne Gil Baileyy, Barbara
19	Walsh Baker, James Addison Baker, Jane E.

20	Baker, Kathleen Margaret Baker, Sarah Lane
21	Baker, Kyle D. Bakke, Jean Ann Balestrieri,
22	Deborah Balfour, Roy Kenneth Baliles,


					211
	1	Patricia Kristeen Ballard, Patria Gaspar

	2	Balod, Charlie Will Banks, Michael Philip
	3	Baril, Kathryn Anne Barletta, Joan Marie
	4	Barnes, Karen Lee Barnes, Edward Barnett,
	5	Edward Barnett, Jane Elizabeth Barnett,
	6	Patricia Ann Barnett, Roosevelt Barnhart,

	7	Bart Christopher Barre, Donna Louise Barron,
	8	Shanette Michaele Barth, Herbert Henry
	9	Bartlett, Gregory David Bassuk.
10			Did you ever see the file of James
11	Baker, the Secretary of State, in
12	Mr. Kennedy's office?
13		A	I have no memory of it.  I worked
14	for James Baker, so I think I would have made
15	a note.
16		Q	You know that's James Addison
17	Baker, that's his name?
18		A	I wasn't aware of that, no.
19		Q	Paul William Bateman --
20		A	Oh, there is one.  Go ahead.
21		Q	You recognize Paul William Bateman?
22		A	No.  Keep going please.  I'm sorry.


					212
	1		Q	Charles Edward Bates?
	2		A	No.
	3		Q	David Quentin Bates?
	4		A	Yes.
	5		Q	You saw David Quentin Bate's file?
	6		A	Mm-hmm.
	7		Q	Yes?

	8		A	Yes.
	9		Q	Who is David Quentin Bates?

10		A	I'm sorry I don't remember his
11	title at the moment.  He had come on rather
12	late in the end of the Bush second term.  He
13	as I recall was from Texas and seemed to

14	occupy a position of high trust and close
15	relationship with the President and his
16	family.
17		Q	Was there anything else you
18	remember about him?

19		A	About him?
20		Q	Yes.
21		A	Well, vaguely what he looked like
22	and that he became a senior participant in


					213
	1	The White House -- The White House activities

	2	toward the end of '92, as it pertained to the
	3	office of the chief of staff and the Office
	4	of the President -- the President.
	5		Q	In the Bush Administration?
	6		A	Yes.
	7		Q	He wasn't a holdover, was he, in
	8	the Clinton Administration?
	9		A	I don't believe so.  I never saw
10	him after that.
11		Q	He was a political appointee?
12		A	I would say so, yes.
13		Q	Lorri Jeanne Bates, Melinda Naumann
14	Bates, Rochelle Heidi Batt, Lisa Marie
15	Battaglia, Frankie Battle, Gayle Bauer, Julia
16	Harmon Baughman, Matthew Scott Baumeyer, Amy
17	Meredith Baumstein, Kathleen Elizabeth Baur,
18	Brian Callaway Baynard, Chester Paul Beach,
19	Eileen Ferne Bean, Jason Frank Beatty, Thomas
20	Luther Becherer, Heather Marie Beckel, Jean
21	Loretta Becker, Jerome David Becker,
22	Catherine Therese Bedard, James Edward Beers,


			214
	1	Patrick Adam Beers, Kateri Ray Belby, James

	2	George Bell, Lillie Mae Bell, Louise Helen
	3	Bell, Mariam McKowen Bell, Robert Gregory
	4	Bell, Antonio Benedi, Mary Lee Benjamin,

	5	Carolyn Claire Berenzy, Eric Berry, Betha
	6	Elizabeth Berryman, Rudyy Max Beserra, Anita
	7	Carol Bevacqua, James Michael Bieda,
	8	Elizabeth Ann Binion, Mary Ursula Binns,

	9	Deborah Bird, Danica Bizic, Mark Gustav
10	Bizic.
11	          Going to the fourth page, David Lee
12	Black, Judy Ann Black, Barbara Ann Blackburn,
13	Virginia Mae Blackwell, Pearlena Blake,
14	Marion Clifton Blakey, Anthony David
15	Blankley, Suzette A. Blodgett, Gary Robert

16	Blumenthal, Elizabeth Iden Board, George
17	Herbert Bohrer, Joshua Brester Bolten,
18	Carolina Orgeira Bonino, Deborah Anita

19	Boozen, Susan Aileen Borchard, Gladys Rebecca
20	Bostick, Sharon Marie Botwin, James Bowen,

21	Janet Virginia Bowen, Ann Rosemary Bracken,
22	Frank Alexander Brackene, Margaret Louise


					215
	1	Brackney, Ellen Lorraine Bradley, James Scott
	2	Brady, Katherine Chrystie Brady, Phillip
	3	Donley Brady, Barnaby Lair Brasseux.
	4			Was there a Mr. Brasseux who worked
	5	in The White House Travel Office that you
	6	know of?
	7		A	I didn't know many of their last
	8	names.  My interaction with them was all on a

	9	first-name basis, so other than Billy Dale I
10	knew them as Mo and Bob and so I really can't
11	tell you for sure, and I don't remember from
12	press reports.
13		Q	I read you the name of a James

14	Brady.  Was that The White House press
15	secretary that was shot?

16		A	I don't know.
17		Q	Harleen Marie Breaux, Richard
18	Carroll Breeden, Stacey Lynn Breen, Carl Ray
19	Breining, Bettina Christina Brewa, Marjorie
20	Anne Bridgman, Terheran James Brighthaupt,
21	Cecil Luther Briscoe, James Elmore Junior
22	Briscoe, Raymond Joseph Briscuso, Ann Cathey


					216
	1	Brock, Crystal Lynn Brooks, John Henry
	2	Brooks, Sylvena Carter Brooks --
	3			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, can
	4	you hold on one second, please?
	5			THE WITNESS:  I think Ann Brock was
	6	one of them.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	Who was Ann Brock?
	9		A	Ann Brock, I think, was the
10	scheduler to Mrs. Bush.
11		Q	A political appointee?
12		A	Definitely.
13		Q	Did you know her in the Bush White
14	House?
15		A	I did.
16		Q	And what were her duties and
17	responsibilities as scheduling?
18		A	I believe she was responsible for
19	short and long-range scheduling of
20	Mrs. Bush's calendar to ensure that it
21	coincided with the President's long-range
22	calendar as well as other familial


				217
	1	obligations they had for travel.  So she was
	2	the scheduler under Mrs. Bush's chief of
	3	staff, Susan Porter Rose, I believe.
	4		THE WITNESS:  Could you mark that
	5	one for me?
	6		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Oh, I'm sorry.
	7		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8	     Q	Crystal Lynne Brooks, John Henry
	9	Brooks, Sylvana Carter Brooks, Michelle Marie
10	Brott, Cornell Marshall Brown, Emmett
11	Robinson Brown, Ennis Waldon Brown, Gregory
12	Payne Brown, James Brown.
13	     A	Don't think I saw that one.
14	     Q	And the band of renowneds.  Ronald

15	James Brown, Steven Lee Brown, Susan Karen
16	Brown, Sara Anne Browne, Patricia Mack Bryan,
17	Chester Corbett Bryant, Junior, Todd Glen
18	Buchholtz, Catherine Eleanor Bull, Katyia
19	Bullock, Jean Marie Bunton, Mary Lee Birch,
20	Rita Daiva Bureika, Mary Jane Burgess, Janice
21	Lee Burneister, Nealton J. Burnham, Francine
22	Maria Burns, Michael Joseph Busch, Sandra Kay


					218
	1	Bushue, Bruce Irving Bustard, Judith Ann
	2	Butler, Lisa Butler, Renea Annette Butler,
	3	Diane Burch Butterfield, William Joseph
	4	Butterfield, Jay Scott Bybee, Phyllis
	5	McCommons Burn, Margaret M. Caccia, William
	6	Burns Caldwell, Lane Philese Calhoun,
	7	Nicholas E. Calio, Lorraine R. Camarano,
	8	Martha Reed Cammack, Frances Loretta
	9	Campbell, Joyce Dianne Campbell, Joyce Diane
10	Campbell, Sarah Louise Campbell, Victoria
11	Zima Campbell, Shirley Anne Campolieto, Joes

12	(Jose) Julio Canales, William James Canary?
13		A	Yeah, that one.
14		Q	You saw that file in Kennedy's
15	office?
16		A	Yes, I remember seeing the last
17	names, and I don't recall the William James

18	Canary.  I remember William Canary, because I
19	knew a Bill Canary in the Bush White House.
20		Q	Who was Bill Canary?
21		A	Coincidentally, he was friends with
22	Deb Amand, whose name I had also seen.


					219
	1		Q	What was Bill Canary's job?
	2		A	I don't remember his title.  It
	3	was --
	4		Q	Do you remember what he did?
	5		A	He was a commissioned officer to
	6	the President, but I'm not sure in what

	7	capacity, political director or public
	8	liaison, one of the liaisons in the old EOB.
	9		Q	A political appointee?
10		A	Yes.
11			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the term
12	political appointee.  Make that a standing
13	objection.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	Do you know what a political
16	appointee is?
17		A	I understood the question to mean,
18	was he appointed by the President as a
19	commissioned officer in this regard.  That's
20	how I'm referring to it.
21		Q	You know the difference between a
22	political employee and a civil service


					220
	1	employee, correct?
	2		A	I most certainly do.  He was not a

	3	civil servant appointee.  He was not part of
	4	the career civil service.  He was, in fact,

	5	commissioned, as I recall -- I believe I have
	6	seen his framed commission in his office.  I
	7	just can't at the moment remember which
	8	office that was.
	9		Q	He wasn't a holdover in the Clinton
10	White House; was he?
11		A	I never saw him there.
12		Q	Daniel Lee Carlson, Kathleen
13	Shaughnessy Carlson, Nicol Leigh Carlson,

14	Henry Alan Carmack, Ann Mildred Carmichael,
15	Kelly Hawkins Carnes, David Michael Carney,
16	Howard Albion Carney, Lucy Cole Carney,

17	Andrew Michael Carpendale, Judith Lee
18	Carpenter, Margaret Van Wagenen Carpenter,
19	Bobby Gene Carr, Christopher Steven Carr,

20	Edwin George Carr, Michael Damon Carr, Sally
21	Wenner Carr, John Gerald Carriere, Flora
22	Jenice Carroll, Jeremy Ethridge Caroll, Mary


			221
	1	Kate Carol, Rita Revel Carol, Sally Claude

	2	Carol, Allison Webb Carter, Russell Edward
	3	Carter, Tommy Jackson Carter, James Carville.
	4	You ever hear of James Carville?
	5	     A    Yes.  Bayni Garica Casanova,

	6	Erlinda Elizabeth Casey, Sheryll Denise
	7	Cashin, Daniel Anthony Casse, Ann Marie

	8	Casiagnetti, Anna Sanabria Casiflo, Shara Ann
	9	Castle, Joseph Nelson Cate, Roland Harrison
10	Caton, Ann Marie Catalini, George Gray
11	Claudill, Junior, Julian Attaway Cave, Sarah
12	Joan Cavendish, Carolyn Marie Cawley, Gregory
13	Philip Celemtano, Clarissa Cerda, Joseph
14	Walter Cerrell, Dolores Lumina Chacon, Alyson
15	Hillary Chadwick.
16	          Going to page 7:  Richard Lee

17	Chambers, Julia Eden Chamovitz, Florence
18	Champagne, Florence Champagne, Alfred
19	Wei-Kaung Chang, Jennifer Chang, James
20	Daniels Chapman, John Chanbrook Chapman,

21	Robert Thomas Chapman, Thomas Leo Chappelear,
22	Logan Stanley Chappell, Peter Farham Charles,


			222
	1	Robert Bruce Charles, Tyron Leon Chase,
	2	Keredith Ferguson Chen, Volunteers in Youth,
	3	Chesapeake, Mary Elizabeth Child, Douglas
	4	Wayne Chirdon, Jill Melissa Codorov, Gloria
	5	Jean Chonka, Teressa Marie Christoff,
	6	Katherine Clare Chumachenko, Marjorie Heins

	7	Ciarlante, James William Cicconi, Aida Marie
	8	Cipriani, Sharon Elizabeth Clark, Paul Clark,
	9	Ellizabeth Hope Clayton, Catherine Cleale,

10	Philip Patrick Cleary, John Anthony Cline,
11	Mary Betha Cobbs, William Nathaniel Cob,
12	Lawanda Anntinette Cobey, Terri Lynnette
13	Cobey, Jane Rusk Cocking, Scott Andrew

14	Caffina, Benedict Simms Cohen, Karen Joyce
15	Cohn, Noah Phillip Cohrssen, Clifford William
16	Colby, Lisa Tower Caldwell, Herbert Holt
17	Coleman.
18	          Going to page 8:  Christopher David
19	Colley, Adam Reed Colick, Gail Aredon
20	Collins, Laura Jean Collins, Paul Joseph
21	Junior Collins, Tracy Regene Collins,

22	Elizabeth Margaret Compton, Jenny Marie


			223
	1	Condlin, Karen Ann Connell, Patricia Lynn
	2	Conrad, David Lawrence Cook, Michelle Dianne

	3	Cook, Julie Cook, B. Jay Cooper, Janet Felton
	4	Cooper, Marshall Cooper, Susan Ann Cornick,
	5	Michelle Lynn Coster, Julia Marie Cot,
	6	Catherine Crowley Coughlin, Jack L.
	7	Courtemanche, Pamela Jean Covington, Carl
	8	David Covitz, Emma Jean Cox, Patricia Helen
	9	Cox, Susan Alpert Coyle, Charlene C. Cosart,
10	Lynn Allison Crabal, Bernard James Craig,
11	Gravin Winslow Craig, Judy A. D. Craig, Kelly
12	Ann Crawford, Danny Lee Crippen, Caroline

13	Madden Critchfield, Traci Michelle Critton,
14	Francez Gabrey Croft, Carol Catherine
15	Cronheim, Stephanie Marguerite Cross, Janet
16	Shaw Crouse, Matthew Elton Crow, Shelly Lynn
17	Crow, Amanda Faith Crumly, Allison Wheatland
18	Cryor, Laszlo Thomas Csorba.
19	          MS. SHAPIRO:  Can we turn on these
20	lights, perhaps?  It's getting difficult to
21	see for the video.  Thank you.
22	          BY MR. KLAYMAN:


					224
	1		Q	Connie Kay Cudd, Lue Culbreath, Lue
	2	Adde Culbreath, Leslee Blair Cullen, Arthur
	3	Boggess Culvahouse, Claudia Lynn Cummins,

	4	Erin Michelle Cunningham, Carolyn Curiel,
	5	Aliese Selma Curley, Betty Williams Currie, ,
	6	Dorothy Jane Curry, Joseph Fillmore Curseen,
	7	Theodore Charles Curtin, Emily Jane Curtis,

	8	Janet Flora Curtis, Richard Edward Curtis,
	9	Jeffrey Andrew Cushman, Ellen Mary Custer,
10	Jennifer Lee Cutshall, Rachael Ray Cutshall,
11	W. Bowman Cutter, Brian Daniel Daily, Billy
12	Ray Dale.
13		A	As I stated, the Dale file I saw
14	was not in Bill Kennedy's office.  It was in

15	Vince Foster's office and, then again, in the
16	safe that Vince Foster used.
17		Q	Sharon Ruth Dale.  Did you know
18	Sharon Ruth Dale?
19		A	I'm sorry, no.
20		Q	Do you know whether that is a
21	relative of Billy Dale?

22		A	I don't know.


			225
	1	     Q    John Joseph Daley, Alison Michelle
	2	Daly, Delores Margot Daly, John Augustine
	3	Daly, David T. Dam, Julie Mead Damgard,

	4	Kristin Ann Demico, Timothy Edward Dana,
	5	Stephanie Clune Dance, Justine Dandrea,
	6	Brenda Joyce Daniels, Hilliard Daniels,
	7	Hilliard Daniels, Junior, John David

	8	Dannenbeck, Steven Ira Danzansky, Douglas
	9	Alexander Davidson, Arlene Poindexter Davis,
10	Carrie Lou Davis, Ethel Anna Davis, James
11	Davis.
12	          Going to page 10:  Mark William

13	Davis, Patrick Joseph Davis, Porter Manvel
14	Davis, Reba Holland Davis, Samuel Davis,
15	William Hal Davis, Calvin Dawkins, Brett
16	Brewer Dawson, Susan Bradshaw Dawson,

17	Benjamin Paul Dean, Bernice Elizabeth Dean,
18	Donald Ray Dean, James AFL/CIO Retirees
19	Deaton, Joan Chenery Decain, Sarah Gwathmey
20	DeCamp, Kris Marie Dee, William Edward Deese,
21	Senior, Linda Susan Dehart, Michael Eric
22	Dehart, Stacey Kay Del Grosso, Dorothy Rhea


			226
	1	Dillingner, David Franklin Demerest, Susan

	2	Russell Denniston, Mary Kathryn Dewhirst,
	3	Julia Lynne Diaz, Francis Joseph Dietz,
	4	Kristin Marie Dietz, William Donald Dietz,
	5	Richard William Diguiseppe, Daniel Clifford
	6	Diller, Diana Elizabeth Dillon, Elma Sara

	7	Dirolf, Carpenters Seattle North District
	8	Council, Viola Elizabeth Dixon, Faith Elaine
	9	Doffermyre, Jiamota Mae Doggett, Ellen B.
10	Doherty, Anthony Rossi Dolan, Marla Murphy
11	Donahue, Helen Colle Donaldson, Frank Joseph
12	Donatelli, Charles Anthony Donovan, Teresa
13	Ann Donovan, Peggy Ann Dooley.

14	          MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, may I
15	interrupt right there?  Mrs. Tripp needs to
16	take a restroom break.
17	          THE WITNESS:  It's not a restroom
18	break.  It just feels like enough already

19	with these names.  I'm getting dizzy.  Can
20	you ask me other questions, and we can come
21	back to this another day?
22	          MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, this is


					227
	1	important.
	2		THE WITNESS:  I know, but I'm
	3	feeling like -- you're losing me.  I'm not
	4	focusing.  It's too many names.
	5		MR. KLAYMAN:  Why don't we take a 2
	6	minute break?
	7		THE WITNESS:  I think you'd rather
	8	I be accurate, correct?
	9		MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, it's important
10	that we get these names at this point.  Why
11	don't we take a five-minute break?
12		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
13	video record at 4:15.

14		     (Recess)
15		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
16	video record at 4:39.
17		THE WITNESS:  Mr. Klayman, might I
18	just say, that with difficulty I've read

19	page 11, so you can skip page 11 and go
20	to 12, if you care to.
21		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22	     Q	Let me ask you this.  We were ready


					228
	1	to start in on page 11, and you said you were
	2	tiring of this technique that was caused
	3	because you inadvertently forgot your reading

	4	glasses.  Are you able to look at the various
	5	pages and at least for now tell me whether
	6	you see any names of individuals' whose files
	7	you saw?  Do the best you can and come back
	8	to it later when you have your reading
	9	glasses.
10		A	So you'd like to me to review the
11	remainder of this document?
12		Q	Yes, do the best you can.  I

13	understand you don't have your reading
14	glasses.
15		A	Yeah, okay.
16		Q	Did you see a name you recognize?
17		A	Not just at that moment, no.  I
18	recognized it, but didn't see it that day.
19			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Are you finished
20	reviewing the list, Mrs. Tripp?

21			THE WITNESS:  Should I go back and
22	look?


					229
	1			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  If you want to go
	2	back to those names, go ahead.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	4		Q	Having had a chance to review that
	5	as best you could without your reading
	6	glasses, stipulating that, like me, you're
	7	far-sighted, as well as perhaps nearsighted,
	8	were you able to find any other names that
	9	you recognized?
10		A	I'm not going to stipulate to the
11	first statement, and I found some, yes,

12	actually.  On page 14, Terry Warren Good.
13		Q	Terry Warren Good?
14		A	Correct.
15		Q	Who is Terry Warren Good?
16		A	He was an employee in office of
17	records.  I believe he had been there through
18	other administrations.  He was someone with
19	whom I had relatively frequent contact in the
20	previous administration.
21		Q	Is he a political appointee?
22		A	No, he is not, or let me correct.


					230
	1	He was not at that time.  I don't know if he
	2	is now.
	3		Q	Let me just stop you here.  Are you
	4	aware that Terry Good has testified in this
	5	lawsuit?
	6		A	I think I read a press report at

	7	some point, but I don't know that I recall
	8	his testimony.
	9		Q	Do you recollect reading that he
10	was asked to call up information about you
11	from his record keeping system in the Office
12	of Records Management?
13			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
14			THE WITNESS:  I remember reading
15	that records management had been approached
16	by someone at The White House on several
17	names, including mine, early this year, yes.
18			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19		Q	Do the names Kathleen Willey and
20	Monica Lewinsky ring a bell as well?
21		A	Well, it was definitely one of the
22	two, if not both.


					231
	1		Q	Do you remember reading as to
	2	whether or not it was The White House counsel
	3	that asked Mr. Good to call up your file?
	4		A	I don't remember.  I just remember
	5	it was someone in the complex.
	6		Q	Do you have any information about
	7	this incident, other than what you read?
	8		A	No.
	9			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11		Q	Have you inquired about it with
12	anyone?
13		A	Have I?

14		Q	Yeah.
15		A	I don't know if this --
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  One moment,
17	please.
18			     (Counsel conferred with witness)
19			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  You can answer.
20			THE WITNESS:  I've spoken at length
21	with my attorneys about that.
22			BY MR. KLAYMAN:


					232
	1		Q	Have you spoken about this with
	2	Mr. Good or anybody in the Office of Records
	3	Management currently?
	4		A	No.
	5		Q	Anyone other than your attorneys
	6	have you spoken about this issue?

	7		A	I don't have a specific
	8	recollection of speaking about this
	9	particular issue with anyone, other than my
10	attorneys.  Is it possible that I had a

11	conversation about an article that I read
12	concerning Terry Good's testimony?  It's
13	possible.  Nothing that stands out.

14		Q	Let's go to the next name.
15		A	Page 16, Maureen Hudson.
16		Q	Maureen Hudson?
17		A	Mm-hmm.
18		Q	H-u-d-s-o-n, Maureen A.
19		A	Correct.

20		Q	M-a-u-r-e-e-n.  Who was Maureen
21	Hudson?
22		A	Maureen Hudson was a name that was


					233
	1	quite familiar to me.  She was the individual

	2	with whom I initially interviewed when I came
	3	over from the Pentagon in 1990 to interview
	4	for the job of senior floater in the west
	5	wing.
	6		Q	Senior what?
	7		A	Floater.
	8		Q	What was Ms. Hudson's job at the
	9	time?
10		A	I don't remember her title because
11	I never worked for her directly; however, I
12	fell under her umbrella organization on
13	paper.
14		Q	What was an umbrella organization?
15		A	Well, it's a part of -- a
16	directorate or some small office in the
17	greater correspondence office, Presidential
18	Letters, something like that.
19		Q	Presidential Correspondence?
20		A	Yes.
21		Q	She was the director of that
22	office?


					234
	1		A	She was.  She had been there for, I
	2	believe, in excess of 20 years and was
	3	someone actually about whom I had heard a

	4	great deal over many years through mutual
	5	friends.
	6		Q	Was she a holdover employee into
	7	the Clinton White House?
	8		A	She had been there in excess of 20
	9	years, so yes.
10		Q	Anyone else?
11		A	This name on page 17, if this is in
12	fact the name I recall seeing, and the name
13	that I'm referring to at this moment is
14	Susanna Ann Lugwig.  I remember seeing a file
15	that made me wonder why they had the head

16	operator's file, and I remember thinking,
17	either at that point or later, that she had
18	changed her name.  I think she had gotten
19	married, or divorced or something and had
20	changed her name, either to Lugwig or from
21	Lugwig to something else, and so I remember

22	that name.  I'm now not completely sure that


					235
	1	it was the same name, but that's the name
	2	that you asked me to refresh my memory.
	3		Q	What was her position at the time?

	4		A	I believe she was the chief White
	5	House operator and had been for many years.
	6		Q	Telephone operator?
	7		A	Correct.
	8		Q	Was she a holdover?
	9		A	Yes.
10		Q	Any other names?
11		A	There was one other name that I
12	thought that I had seen in Bill Kennedy's
13	office that I don't see on this list.
14		Q	Who was that?
15		A	Al Nagy.
16		Q	N-a-g-y?
17		A	I'm not sure.  For some reason, I
18	thought there was a G, G-N, but I guess
19	that's not possible.  N-a-g-y, maybe.
20		Q	The file was similar to the files
21	that you've previously described as FBI
22	files?


					236
	1		A	Well, as I described, they all
	2	shared the same appearance, and I was told
	3	they were FBI files.
	4		Q	How is Nagy spelled?
	5		A	I'm not sure.
	6		Q	You think it's N-a-g-y?
	7		A	I think so.  I'm not completely
	8	sure.
	9		Q	What was Al Nagy's position?
10		A	He was the telephone man.  He was

11	responsible for the phone system that was in
12	the complex over many years, apparently.
13		Q	He was a holdover too?
14		A	Yes.
15		Q	So you had the chief telephone
16	operator, Ms. Ludwig and Mr. Nagy?
17		A	Yes.  However, as I said, I did not
18	see with any spelling that looked remotely
19	reasonable, his name on this list.
20		Q	Did it strike you as peculiar that
21	they had these telephone people involved?
22		A	Over time, yeah.


					237
	1		Q	Why was that?
	2		A	It just seemed unusual to me.  I
	3	had never met Sue Wood or Sue Ludwig or
	4	whatever her name was at that point, but I

	5	had spoken to her.  She had been extremely
	6	helpful on many occasions by phone.  Al Nagy
	7	I had had considerable interaction with.
	8	These people had been there for a great deal
	9	of time, and they were well respected within
10	the compound, as were, frankly, most of the
11	support staff who had served admirably in
12	many administrations, and it was just
13	surprising to me to see their names, as it
14	would have been to see my own, which I
15	didn't.
16		Q	Any other names that you've
17	recognized, as of today?
18		A	Not as of today, no.
19		Q	You previously testified that you
20	saw Congressman Clinger's?
21		A	Yes.  I do not see his name on the
22	list, and again I saw the name Clinger.


					238
	1		Q	C-l-i-n-g-e-r?
	2		A	Correct.
	3		Q	Where did you see that?
	4		A	Also in Bill Kennedy's office.
	5		Q	Where in the office?
	6		A	A stack, as I recall.  I don't
	7	right now, as we sit here, have a complete
	8	photographic recollection of where each file
	9	was in a stack, but I can tell you that I

10	didn't sift through stacks.  I walked around
11	and saw stacks.  There didn't appear to be
12	any alphabetical order that I could
13	determine, based on what I saw.
14		Q	Did you ever ask Mr. Kennedy how
15	the files got to his office?
16		A	I did not.
17		Q	Did you ever see your file in his
18	office?
19		A	I did not.
20		Q	Your name appears on this list;
21	you're aware of that?
22		A	I'm aware of that, yes.


				239
	1	     Q	Do you know why your file was
	2	obtained by The White House counsel's office?
	3		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	4		THE WITNESS:  I know what I've read

	5	in press reports, and I certainly have my own
	6	opinion, but I don't know, no.
	7		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8	     Q	What's your own opinion?
	9	     A	Press reports indicated, at least
10	from what I recollect, that my file was
11	requested in June of '94.  My security update
12	was not in need of any sort of review at that
13	point for a good solid year after that, at
14	the very least.  It was, however, in the
15	aftermath of my raising questions and
16	becoming more and more vocal about concerns I
17	had had with Bruce Lindsey, with Joel Kline,
18	and to an extent with Bernie, and then
19	following his removal, with Lloyd Cutler.  So
20	it was following the time that I had been

21	told that my role no longer existed in the
22	counsel's office and, essentially, to find


					240
	1	other employment within the compound, if
	2	possible, or elsewhere if needed.  So I was
	3	already asked to leave well prior to the date

	4	that my file was requested, if press reports
	5	are to be believed.
	6		Q	In essence, it's your belief that
	7	your file was requested, because you had
	8	somehow been perceived to be a troublemaker?
	9			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
10			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  What's your
11	opinion?
12			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13		Q	Just trying to paraphrase it.  If
14	you have a better way of expressing it.
15		A	I don't know that I have a better
16	way of expressing it.  I just think that, for
17	whatever reason, they wanted to review my FBI
18	file, which is separate and apart, of course,
19	from my security file and my personnel file.
20		Q	When you saw Clinger's file in
21	Kennedy's office, did you ask him any
22	questions about it?


					241
	1		A	No, I didn't ask him about any
	2	specific files.  It wouldn't have been
	3	appropriate for me to ask him anything about
	4	the nature of the files, other than in a

	5	generic sort of way, because of the sheer
	6	number.
	7		Q	Approximately, when did you see
	8	Clinger's file in Kennedy's office?
	9		A	I don't recall.  I'm sorry.
10		Q	1993?  1994?
11		A	I don't know.  I think it was
12	later, but I don't know.  I can't recall when
13	I saw it.
14		Q	Roughly speaking?
15		A	I can't.  That is as rough as I can
16	get.  I remember seeing it.  It's not on the
17	list, and I don't know when I saw it.
18		Q	When did you leave The White House
19	again?
20		A	I left The White House in August
21	of '94.
22		Q	Was it shortly before you left The


			242
	1	White House?
	2	     A    I just don't remember.  I had

	3	occasion to be in Bill Kennedy's office
	4	frequently during my last few months, but
	5	quite candidly, I had been in his office on a
	6	relatively routine basis from May of '93
	7	until my departure.  So it's very difficult,
	8	given the fact that I saw no particular
	9	significance at the time, other than with the
10	possible exception of the Dale Travel Office
11	situation.  I had not fantasized a large
12	conspiracy of any kind at that time.
13	     Q    When you left the Grand Jury on
14	July 29, 1998, and you appeared in the
15	Lewinsky matter, you made a statement, and I
16	quote, "As a result of trying to earn a
17	living, I became aware between 1993 and 1997
18	of actions by high government officials that
19	may have been against the law.  For that

20	period of nearly five years, the things I
21	witnessed concerning several different
22	subjects made me feel increasingly fearful


					243
	1	that this information was dangerous, very
	2	dangerous to possess."  Is that part of the
	3	statement that you made?
	4		A	That is.
	5		Q	With regard to that statement, the

	6	actions that you saw between 1993 and 1997,
	7	at the time that you made this statement on
	8	leaving the Grand Jury in July of this year,

	9	were you referring in part to matters you had
10	witnessed concerning FBI files?
11		A	Yeah, partially, partially.  I
12	don't know that files necessarily would have
13	been the most worrisome to me, but, yes,
14	certainly partially.
15		Q	What aspect of your whole
16	experience in observing files when you were
17	in The White House and learning about FBI

18	files were you referring to?
19			MR. MAZUR:  Object to the form of
20	the question.
21			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

22		Q	You can respond.


					244
	1		A	I don't think I understand the
	2	question.
	3		Q	Let me rephrase it.  What was it

	4	that you meant to convey in a general sense
	5	about your experience in The White House with
	6	regard to FBI files?
	7		A	As it pertains to FBI files?
	8		Q	Yes.
	9		A	The growing sense that I had over
10	time that political opponents, dissidents,
11	those with opposing viewpoints might perhaps
12	be targeted for retribution for behavior
13	that -- or be targeted for behavior that may
14	or may not be true, based on information that
15	may or may not have been gathered or taken
16	from raw FBI data files.
17		Q	At that point in time, July 29th
18	of 1998 on leaving the Grand Jury, were you
19	thinking about what you had seen with regard
20	to FBI files when you were in The White House
21	counsel's office?
22		A	Certainly in part, yes.


					245
	1		Q	Did it dawn on you at the time that
	2	your having seen Representative Clinger's
	3	file, there may have been some significance
	4	of that?
	5		A	Did it dawn on me at the time of my
	6	Grand Jury testimony?
	7		Q	Yes.
	8		A	No.  I mean, this is something that

	9	I had, in my opinion, put together for me to
10	my satisfaction well before that.
11		Q	What is it that you were able to
12	put together in retrospect about your
13	experience concerning FBI files?
14			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
15			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

16		Q	You can respond.
17		A	This is my opinion, so I don't know
18	how relevant my opinion is.
19		Q	It's relevant.  It's relevant.
20		A	It's not legal.
21		Q	We'll let the judge decide that.
22		A	I believe, based on what I


			246
	1	observed, that the possibility exists that

	2	files were used to uncover information that
	3	might have the ability to be used against
	4	certain individuals.
	5	     Q    What caused you to believe that?
	6	     A    I think that originally it was the
	7	Travel Office, and the way that that
	8	occurred, and the follow-on to their firing
	9	with what I consider to be completely bogus
10	charges lodged against Billy Dale, and the

11	vehement and just excruciatingly enthusiastic
12	way they were pursuing that regard.  That was
13	my first frightening episode in terms of
14	files.
15	          I also believe that what I
16	witnessed in terms of Chris Emory's file, if
17	nothing else, portended his removal, if
18	nothing else.  Files seemed to appear and
19	people disappeared, and I mean no disrespect.
20	I don't mean that they disappeared.  They
21	were removed from The White House after years
22	of what was considered to be honorable


				247
	1	service, so, yes, it frightened me.
	2	     Q	Did you put in context your having
	3	seen Representative Clinger's file in this
	4	whole way of thinking?
	5		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	6		THE WITNESS:  I don't know that it
	7	was Representative Clinger's file.  I know
	8	that it was a file that said Clinger.  Again,
	9	my view is that it was very likely
10	Representative Clinger's file, and, yes, I

11	believe that it is some sort of opposition
12	research that goes on with the assistance of
13	possibly FBI files to those who would dare
14	question or go after the truth.
15		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16	     Q	What leads you to believe that it
17	was Representative Clinger's file?
18	     A	Well, first of all, I really have
19	no basis for that belief, other than my own
20	feeling that I didn't know any other Clinger
21	in the Bush White House, and that the name
22	just snapped out at me in terms of the


					248
	1	ongoing investigation at the time of
	2	Filegate, which had been brought to my
	3	attention, ironically enough, by a former
	4	Bush official who had contacted me and had at

	5	that time worked for Representative Clinger,
	6	because without that, I would not have even
	7	known the name Clinger.
	8		Q	Who was that?
	9		A	His name was Phil Larson.
10		Q	When did Mr. Larson contact you?
11		A	I think it was early on, after the
12	Travelgate became Travelgate, and it became
13	an issue.
14		Q	Did you tell him you'd seen a file
15	with the name Clinger on it?
16			MS. SHAPIRO:  While we're waiting,
17	I'll just put in a continuing objection to
18	the form and speculation.

19			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
20			THE WITNESS:  With respect to
21	files, I discussed with Phil Larson concerns

22	that I had about seemingly suspicious files


					249
	1	appearing in different portions of The White

	2	House.  I think that's all I need to say on
	3	that.
	4			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	5		Q	When did you have the conversation
	6	with Phil Larson?
	7		A	You know what?  You'd have better
	8	success asking him that question.  I don't
	9	remember.  His name was -- my name was given
10	to him and, I think he knew me peripherally
11	from the Bush White House.  I had never met
12	him.  But his name -- my name was given to
13	him by White House personnel staff members
14	who used to work for him, and who passed
15	along that I might have information that he
16	would find interesting.  He was at that time
17	working for, I believe, for Representative
18	Clinger.
19		Q	Did you tell him you had seen a
20	file labeled Clinger?
21		A	I don't recall specifically if I
22	told him that or not.


					250
	1		Q	Do you think you did?
	2		A	I don't recall.  I'm sorry.
	3		Q	Had you seen the file at the time
	4	that you talked to him?
	5		A	I think so, but I don't think I had

	6	made the connection until I spoke to him, and
	7	it may well have been the other way around.
	8	I just have no distinct recollection of when.
	9		Q	Did you give him the names of any
10	other files that you had seen in Kennedy's
11	office or elsewhere?
12		A	No.
13		Q	You just referred to seeing files
14	in Kennedy's office and around The White
15	House.
16		A	Yes.
17		Q	Are there any files around The

18	White House that you haven't previously
19	identified today?
20		A	No, I'm sorry.  I should have been
21	more clear.  I was referring to Craig
22	Livingstone's office, again this very same


					251
	1	location I've stated repeatedly today.
	2		Q	Do you know whether or not Terry
	3	Good housed FBI files in the Office of

	4	Records Management for Mr. Livingstone?
	5		A	I don't know.  I never saw any.
	6		Q	When you made this statement in

	7	leaving the Grand Jury on July 29, 1998, and
	8	you were referring in part to your experience
	9	of having observed FBI file-related matters,
10	were you also factoring in the conversations
11	that you had with Betsy Pond and the ones you
12	overheard of Bill Kennedy and Marcia Scott
13	about loading files on to computer?
14			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
15			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16		Q	You can respond.
17		A	Certainly that was a part of it, of
18	course.
19		Q	What was it about those
20	conversations about loading files on to
21	computer that caused you to think there could
22	be illegalities being committed, if anything?


			252
	1	     A    Over time, it smacked of Big
	2	Brother to me, and of course that had been
	3	the nickname of our backup system, so to me,
	4	it was frightening.  Remember, this is
	5	nothing I had been exposed to in my work in
	6	the previous administration.  This was

	7	completely new and different, and I had
	8	worked at the highest levels of senior

	9	leadership in The White House.  So it wasn't
10	as though I would not have been exposed to --
11	in my opinion, it's not as though I might not
12	have been exposed to this sort of thing in
13	the Bush White House.  I hadn't seen anything
14	like this.
15	     Q    Did you or anyone else ever ask
16	what was meant by the name Big Brother for
17	the backup system?
18	     A    No, because it was a joke.  I mean,
19	it was sort of a -- that's what they called
20	where the backup system was stored.  I don't
21	think any of us really cared.  We assumed
22	they had the right to do that.


					253
	1		Q	Who's they?
	2		A	The computer people.
	3		Q	You testified that on two or three
	4	occasions you had conversations with Bill
	5	Kennedy about personnel?
	6		A	At least on two occasions and, I
	7	think, three at least -- I think three that I
	8	recall were personnel related, yes.
	9		Q	How did that arise?  What was that
10	about?
11		A	Concerns that I had addressed with
12	Bernie Nussbuam.  He suggested I speak to
13	Bill Kennedy about it.
14		Q	What were those concerns?
15			MS. SHAPIRO:  Could we have a
16	moment, please?
17			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Bear with us one
18	second.
19			MR. KLAYMAN:  Go off the record.

20			THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
21	video record at 5:15.

22			     (Recess)


			254
	1	          THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on
	2	video record at 5:25.
	3	          MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, with

	4	respect to the last question, I would proffer
	5	to you that the substance of that
	6	conversation has no apparent, or obvious or
	7	even tangential relationship to Filegate and
	8	these related matters.  It does deal,
	9	however, with some very personal matters
10	related to Ms. Pond, and I think for
11	Ms. Tripp to divulge that information on a
12	public record would cause undue embarrassment
13	to Ms. Pond, as well as Ms. Tripp, and I'm
14	going to instruct her not to answer the
15	question.
16	          I do want to finish, and I would
17	proffer that I would like to defer this
18	matter for the court for consideration, and
19	if necessary, of course, Ms. Tripp will
20	comply with the court as order.  I believe

21	she'd be willing to testify to this matter
22	under seal, if the court deemed it


					255
	1	appropriate.
	2		MR. KLAYMAN:  We'd made that offer,

	3	incidentally, when you raised the issue with
	4	another witness Mr. Kennedy, and that was
	5	declined by the Clinton Justice Department.
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  Can I interject
	7	something?
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  No, because I'm not
	9	finished.
10		MS. SHAPIRO:  I think it will be
11	helpful to you.
12		MR. KLAYMAN:  No, I don't think it
13	will.
14		Was there a discussion that you
15	just had with the Clinton Justice Department
16	over this issue?
17		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, there was.
18	We'll take this up in court tomorrow morning.
19		MS. SHAPIRO:  Let me state for the
20	record, please, that with respect to
21	Ms. Pond, we are willing to let information
22	be taken under seal if necessary, due to a


				256
	1	recent discovery that the matter was, in

	2	fact, testified to in a now public, but
	3	obscure deposition.  So with respect to that
	4	information, we will make proffer in writing
	5	to the court in amendment to our motion for
	6	protective order that's on the able, and we
	7	will allow that to be taken under seal.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  Was the so-called
	9	deposition in this lawsuit?
10		MS. SHAPIRO:  No.  I don't think
11	these could ever be called obscure,
12	Mr. Klayman.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  Thank you.  That's
14	the nicest thing you've ever said about me.
15	Does that change your position,
16	Mr. Zaccagnini?

17		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Only to the extent
18	that, yes, we would be willing to offer the
19	testimony under seal.  It's a matter of
20	personal concern to Mrs. Tripp that she had
21	expressed to me before my discussions with
22	justice attorneys, and quite frankly, I think


					257
	1	once the information's divulged to you,

	2	you'll understand everybody's concern.
	3			MR. KLAYMAN:  Did you had prior
	4	conversations with justice attorneys before
	5	today about this issue?
	6			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Yes, I have.
	7			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	8		Q	Did these conversations have
	9	anything to do with Vince Foster?
10		A	I wasn't there.  Please don't ask
11	me that question.
12		Q	Wasn't there for what?
13		A	Any discussions with justice or
14	anyone else.
15		Q	No.  No.  Not about that.
16		A	Oh, what?  I'm sorry.  Please
17	repeat.
18		Q	These discussions you had with
19	Ms. Kennedy over Ms. Pond and Ms. Gorham, did
20	they concern Vince Foster in any way?
21		A	His name came up.
22		Q	Do you know whether or not Vince


					258
	1	Foster had FBI files in his office, other
	2	than the Dale file that you previously
	3	identified?
	4	     A	I don't know.
	5	     Q	Do you know whether or not upon his
	6	death, files were taken out of his office?
	7		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the
	8	form.
	9		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  As it relates to
10	FBI files?
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  I want to ask the

12	foundation question, a simple question.
13		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'll instruct the
14	witness to only answer the question as it
15	relates to FBI files.
16		MR. KLAYMAN:  She may or may not
17	know that files that were taken out actually
18	were FBI files, so I'm entitled to ask it
19	both ways.
20		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  As it relates to
21	FBI files.
22		THE WITNESS:  I don't know.


					259
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	Did you see files being taken out
	3	of his office?

	4		A	Yes.
	5		Q	Who took the files out of his
	6	office?
	7		A	Maggie --
	8			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form and
	9	relevancy.
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

11		Q	You can respond.
12		A	Maggie Williams.

13		Q	When did you see that?
14		A	Shortly after Mr. Foster's death.
15		Q	How were the files taken out?
16		A	In boxes.
17		Q	Was anyone assisting Ms. Williams?
18		A	Tom Castleton, our staff assistant
19	for correspondence.
20		Q	Anyone else?
21		A	Not to my recollection, no.
22		Q	Was Craig Livingstone in Vince


					260
	1	Foster's office after Vince Foster died?
	2		A	Craig Livingstone was in the
	3	counsel office suite a lot after -- in the

	4	immediate aftermath of Mr. Foster's death,
	5	but I don't have a recollection of whether he
	6	gained entry to Vince Foster's office that
	7	morning or not.
	8		Q	Did it strike you as out of the

	9	ordinary that Mr. Livingstone was in the
10	office a great deal after Mr. Foster died?
11			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
12			THE WITNESS:  It was unusual for
13	that level of participation from
14	Mr. Livingstone, yes.
15			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16		Q	How was it unusual?
17		A	Mr. Livingstone's office fell
18	under, loosely as I was told, fell under the
19	counsel office structure, which would have
20	made Mr. Nussbaum the senior person in the
21	chain of command for Mr. Livingstone.

22	However, much as Mr. Livingstone tried


					261
	1	repeatedly to gain access to Mr. Nussbaum,

	2	both by way of appointment or by a drop-by,
	3	he very seldom succeeded in getting into the
	4	door, and when he did get in, Bernie always
	5	called him Cliff.
	6		Q	Why did he call him Cliff?
	7		A	Because he thought that was what
	8	his name was.
	9		Q	He looked like a cliff?
10		A	I think he just didn't pay enough
11	attention.  He really didn't -- clearly
12	didn't know him well; wouldn't you say?  It
13	annoyed Craig to no end.  In fact, he asked
14	me to address it with Bernie, which I did,
15	and he persisted in calling him Cliff.
16		Q	Was the frequency of
17	Mr. Livingstone's presence in the office

18	after Mr. Foster died what you find out of
19	the ordinary.  Or was it where he went that
20	you found out of the ordinary, or both?
21			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
22			THE WITNESS:  What I found out of


					262
	1	the ordinary, and I don't know what that
	2	means about the form, but what I noticed, my
	3	observation that was unusual was his
	4	changed -- my perception of his changed role,
	5	all of a sudden.  Where prior to that, he
	6	seemed to not be able to get in the door, and
	7	now he was a very active participant in
	8	whatever was going on.
	9			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10		Q	Why was he not able to get in the
11	door earlier?
12		A	I don't know.
13		Q	What do you mean by getting in the
14	door?
15		A	As I stated, he was not able to
16	gain access to Bernie or Vince routinely, as
17	evidenced by the number of times he was

18	turned away and by the many times he was
19	called Cliff.
20		Q	After Vince's death, did someone
21	then let him into Vince's office when he came
22	up?


					263
	1		A	Yes, but I don't remember who, and
	2	I don't remember which day.
	3		Q	Do you remember how many times,
	4	roughly?
	5		A	He was around a lot, as was Bill
	6	Kennedy.  I'm sorry.  I don't remember.
	7		Q	When you say around, you mean Bill
	8	Kennedy and Cliff Craig Livingstone was in
	9	Foster's office a lot?
10		A	In our suite a lot.
11		Q	Actually in Mr. Foster's office?

12			MR. MAZUR:  Object to the form of
13	the question.
14			THE WITNESS:  There came a time
15	that the door had a guard in attendance, a

16	secret service person in attendance, ensuring
17	that people did not go in.  Late in the
18	morning, the morning we came to work, the day
19	after Vince Foster was found dead, that was
20	relatively late in the morning, I believe,
21	and I can't be certain.  I better not say.  I
22	don't remember when he went in.  I do recall


					264
	1	his going in.  I don't recall when, whether

	2	it was when the guard had left, whether it
	3	was when the door lock was put on.  I don't
	4	remember.  I didn't take any notes.
	5			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	6		Q	But you know it was several times?

	7		A	He was in our office several times.
	8	I don't know that it was more than once he
	9	was in Vince Foster's office.
10		Q	Did you ever see him carrying
11	things out of your office?
12		A	I better not say, because I don't
13	have a clear recollection.
14		Q	Well, if you have any recollection,
15	you have to say.  We've been through this
16	with other witnesses in the case.  There's a
17	recent order on that.  So if you have any
18	recollection, you have to tell us, Ms. Tripp,
19	and we'll take it just for what it is; that's
20	all.
21		A	I'm under oath here, Mr. Klayman,
22	and I am more than willing to give you my


				265
	1	honest recollections, and I have honestly

	2	stated that I have a clear recollection of
	3	Maggie Williams with Tom Castleton, because I
	4	asked questions during that removal.
	5		This other that I'm thinking of
	6	right now, I did not ask questions, and so
	7	I'm less inclined to be positive in my
	8	testimony, and I'm not inclined to speculate.
	9	Please don't make me do that.
10	     Q	I'm not asking you to speculate,

11	but if you think that Livingstone may have
12	left the office after Foster died with

13	something, then you have to tell us, and
14	we'll just take it as you think.  You're not
15	sure, but you think.
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Do you have any
17	knowledge, Mrs. Tripp?  If you don't, you

18	don't.  Just state it for the record.
19		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me say before she
20	say does state that, we just had a deposition
21	of Terry Good, who was subject to a court

22	order that came out on the same day.  We'll


					266
	1	give you a copy of it, Mr. Zaccagnini, where

	2	Good came into this deposition and said that
	3	I was instructed.  And unless I remember it
	4	100 percent, I should say I don't remember,
	5	and the judge was very critical of that.

	6		MR. GILLIGAN:  I object to that
	7	mischaracterization of Mr. Good's deposition
	8	testimony.
	9		MR. KLAYMAN:  You'll have your
10	opportunity, Mr. Gilligan.
11		MR. GILLIGAN:  I just did.
12		MR. KLAYMAN:  That matter is still
13	under review by the court.  The court made it
14	clear that if you remember something,

15	whatever it is, you have to say it.
16		THE WITNESS:  But I don't feel
17	confident that that's something that I can
18	say with 100 percent certainty under oath.
19		MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't want 100
20	percent.  You can give me 1 percent
21	certainty.

22		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  She's answered the


					267
	1	question to the best of her knowledge,
	2	Mr. Klayman.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	4		Q	Do you remember Mr. Livingstone
	5	possibly leaving with anything after
	6	Mr. Foster died?
	7		A	If the question is, do I remember
	8	Mr. Livingstone possibly leaving with
	9	anything?  The answer is yes.
10		Q	What do you possibly remember him
11	leaving with?
12			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
13	It's speculation.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

15		Q	You can respond.
16		A	Something other than his person.
17		Q	Files?
18		A	I don't know.  I don't know.  He
19	had something under his arm.  I remember
20	thinking that that was unusual, and beyond
21	that, I just don't care to speculate.

22		Q	Where was he coming from when you


						268
	1	saw this thing under his arm?
	2		A	He was leaving our office.
	3		Q	Do you know whether he had access
	4	to any offices inside the suite at that time?

	5		A	I can tell you that whatever he had
	6	with him when he left in this possible
	7	scenario, was not something he had obtained
	8	from the outer office.
	9		Q	How do you know that?
10		A	Because I was in the outer office,
11	and I knew what was going on in the outer
12	office.  That was my area.  He didn't get it
13	from that office.
14		Q	Was it in a briefcase when he took
15	it?
16			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

17			THE WITNESS:  I don't recall a
18	briefcase.
19			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20		Q	Do you recall paper?
21			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
22			THE WITNESS:  No, I'm sorry.  I


					269
	1	recall a bundle of some sort.  I don't have
	2	any further level of specificity to give you.
	3		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	4	     Q	Possibly redwells?
	5		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
	6		MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I just want to
	7	understand.
	8		THE WITNESS:  So do I.  I wish I
	9	could.
10		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to
11	instruct Mrs. Tripp not to speculate as to
12	what it was.  If she has a recollection, then

13	I'll ask her to you exactly what it is that
14	she recalls.  I appreciate the fact that
15	you're trying to jar her memory, but I think
16	she's already answered that question.
17		THE WITNESS:  I've given this a
18	great deal of thought over time, and I really
19	don't have a recollection of what it was.
20		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21	     Q	It may have been files?
22		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.


					270
	1			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Asked and
	2	answered.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

	4		Q	You can respond.
	5		A	It may have been a dog in a box.  I
	6	don't know.  I really don't know.
	7		Q	Did Mr. Livingstone have a dog?
	8		A	I don't know.
	9		Q	Did it strike you as out of the

10	ordinary that he was leaving with something
11	at that time?

12		A	Yes.
13			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	Did you mention it to anyone else
16	that you saw Craig Livingstone leaving with
17	something?
18		A	I don't know that I mentioned I saw
19	him leaving with something.  I wasn't alone
20	at the time that he left.  There were
21	extensive conversations going on during that
22	time with all of us in the outer office, and


					271
	1	so, yes, that was raised.
	2		Q	Did Marceca ever come up to the
	3	suite after Foster died?
	4		A	Yes.
	5		Q	Did he come up more often than he
	6	had before Foster died?
	7		A	Tony Marceca was over there
	8	frequently, because of the safe issue that

	9	I've already explained, so we saw him more
10	regularly and with open arms, mostly because
11	we had requested his presence.  So, no, he --
12	it wasn't a night and day difference as it
13	was with Mr. Livingstone, no.
14		Q	Did you see him leaving with
15	anything after Foster died?
16		A	No.
17		Q	Do you know whether or not the

18	Office of Personnel Security kept a log of
19	files which were taken out of its office up
20	to The White House counsel's office?
21			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
22			THE WITNESS:  A log --


					272
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	Kept a listing of materials.
	3		A	Their office?
	4		Q	Yes.
	5		A	So they said.
	6		Q	Who told you that?
	7		A	That was explained to me in a very

	8	unusual way when Mr. Livingstone's assistant
	9	was attempting to get a promotion, and a
10	title change and business cards, all of which
11	we rejected.  Part of their rationale for
12	this upgrade was a listing of her duties, and
13	one of those duties was that she maintained a
14	log of files that were released, and to whom
15	and the date and this sort of thing, and as I
16	explained to Craig, that was certainly a part
17	of her clerical assignment and did not
18	warrant the new title and business cards and
19	so on.  It was part of our budget.  It was
20	part of the counsel's office budget and would
21	have had to have been approved by
22	Mr. Nussbaum, who did not approve it.  So


					273
	1	that's a roundabout way of explaining how I
	2	was aware of a log.
	3		Q	Who was the assistant?
	4		A	I'm sorry.  I don't remember her
	5	name.
	6		Q	Was it Mari Anderson?
	7		A	I think so.
	8		Q	Are you aware that there was a gap
	9	in that log of about six months?
10		A	No.
11		Q	Did you ever see Craig Livingstone
12	using a computer?
13		A	I'm sorry.  What do you mean?  In
14	his office?
15		Q	Yes.
16		A	Oh, yeah, I've seen him seated at a
17	desk with a computer.
18		Q	Did you ever see him actually using
19	it?
20		A	Yeah.  I don't know what he was
21	doing.  It wasn't facing me.
22		Q	Did you see him typing on it?


					274
	1		A	I saw him seated at his computer

	2	doing something.  I've seen him do that.  I
	3	don't know any more than that.
	4		Q	The conversations that you had with
	5	Mr. Kennedy that you're counsel instructed

	6	you not to talk about concerning Ms. Gorham
	7	and Ms. Pond --
	8		A	Just for the record, that was
	9	actually my preference not to talk about the
10	substance of those conversations.
11		Q	Did any of those discussions

12	concern files, just files generally?
13		A	These particular conversations?
14		Q	Yes.
15		A	No.
16		Q	Were those conversations behind
17	closed doors?

18		A	Yes.
19		Q	How long did they last?
20		A	Not long, 15 minutes maybe.
21		Q	During those conversations, did you
22	observe the stacks of files in Mr. Kennedy's


					275
	1	office?
	2		A	Yes, I continued to observe them.

	3		Q	Did you become more observant each
	4	time you walked in?
	5		A	To the extent that I would see more
	6	names, not really.  The stacks looked very

	7	similar each time I was there.  I remember
	8	that was over a period of time.
	9		Q	Do you know whether or not those
10	files were ever sent back to the FBI, the
11	ones you saw in Kennedy's office?
12			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
13	Lack of foundation.
14			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Do you have any
15	knowledge?
16			THE WITNESS:  Well, I don't know
17	where they would have been sent back to,

18	because I have no direct knowledge where they
19	came from, but I will tell you this.  By the
20	time I left The White House in August of '94,
21	they were still there.
22			BY MR. KLAYMAN:


					276
	1		Q	Did you ever known Jane Sherburn in
	2	The White House counsel's office?
	3		A	I did.
	4		Q	Did you ever discuss the issue of
	5	these files with Ms. Sherburn?
	6		A	I don't believe so, no.
	7		Q	Do you know whether or not
	8	Ms. Sherburn was aware of FBI files in the
	9	office when you worked in the office?
10			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
11			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

12		Q	You can respond.
13		A	I really can't answer that.  I
14	don't know.  I haven't thought about Jane

15	Sherburn in years.  I'd have to think about
16	it again and try to reconstruct.
17		Q	Have you ever seen a document where
18	Ms. Sherburn references FBI files written
19	in 1994?
20		A	Not at the moment, no.
21			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Can I have a
22	second, Mr. Klayman?


					277
	1			     (Counsel conferred with witness)
	2			MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll show you what
	3	I'll ask the court reporter to mark as

	4	Exhibit 8.  It's a memorandum of JCS,
	5	Privileged, Task List, December 13, 1994.
	6			     (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 8
	7			     was marked for identification.)
	8			THE WITNESS:  December 13, '94?
	9			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10		Q	Right.
11		A	That was long after my departure.

12		Q	I'm just going to ask you if you've
13	ever seen this document.  It was published in
14	The Wall Street Journal on September 6, 1996.
15		A	Do I need to read all this?
16		Q	No, just look at it quickly and

17	tell me if you've ever seen this document
18	before.
19		A	Yeah.  I have not seen this
20	document.  I've seen documents very similar
21	to these that came out of The White House --
22	Whitewater damage control meetings that were


					278
	1	held in John Podesta's office.
	2	     Q	What Whitewater damage control
	3	meetings?  What do you mean by that?
	4	     A	They were almost daily meetings
	5	held in John --
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  I just want to
	7	caution, before we get too far into meetings
	8	relating to Whitewater or to senior staff

	9	that aren't relevant to this proceeding.
10		MR. KLAYMAN:  She just testified

11	she saw similar documents, so I'm entitled to
12	get a little foundation here.
13		MS. SHAPIRO:  It also may be
14	privileged, so we have to tread carefully
15	here.
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I don't see a
17	problem with her answering this question at
18	this point in time.  If we're getting close,
19	then I'll let you know.
20		MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.
21		THE WITNESS:  Perhaps it's not

22	relevant to the Filegate story, because


				279
	1	actually the documents to which I'm referring
	2	to had to do with many troublesome issues.

	3	The documents looked like that way.  Jane
	4	Sherburn eventually became an attendee when
	5	she came over with Lloyd Cutler, and her area
	6	of responsibility seemed to widen over time,
	7	at least during my tenure there, and clearly
	8	after my departure.  But again, yes, I've
	9	seen documents much like that.
10		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11	     Q	When did these meetings take place?
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form and
13	to the relevancy of any Whitewater damage

14	meetings, if that's what the reference is.
15		BY MR. KLAYMAN:

16	     Q	You can respond.
17	     A	Well, I can tell you that they
18	started prior to Joel Kline's arrival as
19	deputy counsel, which I believe was in

20	December of '93, and I don't recall Bernie
21	having much of a role in those meetings.  If

22	at all.  I'm sure he attended some.  In fact,


					280
	1	he did attend some, because Bruce Lindsey's

	2	assistant would call and assure that Bernie
	3	was on the schedule to attend, but later on,
	4	after Bernie was no longer at The White
	5	House, Joel Kline became the point man --

	6	actually, before Bernie left, Joel Kline
	7	became the point man for so-called damage
	8	control and was the attendee, and it was

	9	through he and his assistant that I learned
10	more.
11		Q	Where did those meetings take
12	place?
13		A	The basement level of the west wing
14	of the White House, in what was then John
15	Podesta's staff secretary office, I believe.
16		Q	These meetings concerned all of the
17	Clinton controversies, generally speaking,
18	that were present at that point in time?
19		A	It was a vast array of topics, yes.
20		Q	What were some of the topics you
21	can remember?
22			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to the


				281
	1	identification of any topic, other than the
	2	FBI files matters.
	3		MR. KLAYMAN:  It's not that
	4	limited.  If you want to go in front of Judge

	5	Lamberth and make that argument, you can, but
	6	this is absurd.
	7		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I have to agree
	8	with Ms. Shapiro.  I allowed you to go down
	9	this road, because I thought there would be a
10	connection, but I don't see any connection,
11	because clearly this predated the Filegate

12	matter.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me tell you what
14	the connection is and let me back up here.
15		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16	     Q	Who generally attended these
17	meetings?
18	     A	Am I --
19		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Sure, you can say
20	that.
21		THE WITNESS:  I prepared for the
22	Filegate portion honestly, and this was not


					282
	1	something I went into in my Grand Jury
	2	testimony, so I have not spent a great deal
	3	of time on this.  I will give you off the top
	4	of my head the names that I recall, bearing
	5	in mind that it won't be a complete list.
	6	Given time, I think I could give you a
	7	complete list.
	8			Always John Podesta, Jennifer
	9	Dudly --
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11		Q	Who's Jennifer Dudly?
12		A	At the time, she was John.
13	Podesta's assistant.  She, at one point,

14	became Bruce Lindsey's assistant.  I don't
15	know what her status is today.  Harold ----,
16	Joel Kline, Steve Neuwirth, Cliff Sloan.
17		Q	Who was Steve Sloan?
18		A	Cliff Sloan.
19		Q	What was his position?
20		A	Associate counsel to the President,
21	whose area, in the beginning, was Travel

22	Office.  I don't know if it expanded over


					283
	1	time.  Nuwell Eggleston, Maggie Williams, and
	2	I can't say for certain how many of those
	3	meetings or whether even Maggie was a
	4	regular.  I can tell you that there were
	5	times when I actually had to deliver
	6	documents, requested documents, down to the
	7	meeting and so would actually be in the
	8	office during the course of the meeting, and

	9	there were occasions when I saw Maggie there,
10	which is why I've given you that name; one
11	time, in particular, I recall.
12		Q	Anyone else?
13		A	I'd really have to think of it.
14	Off the top of my head, that's it.
15		Q	How frequently did these meetings
16	occur?
17		A	Very frequently.
18		Q	More than once a week?
19		A	Yes.
20		Q	How many, roughly speaking?

21		A	They were regularly scheduled
22	meetings, often spilled over into other


					284
	1	meetings, following those meetings with
	2	smaller groups.  I would say at least twice a

	3	week and probably more frequently, depending
	4	on the escalation of any given issue in the
	5	press.
	6		Q	What is it that you call these
	7	meetings?  How did you first refer to them?
	8		A	Damage control meetings.
	9		Q	They concerned the Clinton
10	scandals?
11		A	I don't think the Clintons would
12	choose to characterize them that way.
13		Q	Controversy?
14		A	Issues of interest, yes.
15		Q	The Clintons wouldn't call them

16	scandals.  To say it nicely, you'd say issues
17	of controversy?
18		A	Right.
19			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
20			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21		Q	You understood them to be scandals,
22	correct?


					285
	1		MS. SHAPIRO:  Again, objection to
	2	form.
	3		THE WITNESS:  I understood them to
	4	be problem issues, yes.
	5		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	6	     Q	Did there come a point in time when
	7	the mix of people at those problem
	8	issue/scandal meetings changed?
	9		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'm going to

10	object.  I've given you plenty of time,
11	Mr. Klayman, to set some kind of relevance to
12	this line of questioning, and I just don't
13	see it.  I really don't.
14		MR. KLAYMAN:  I think you can see
15	it, because these people obviously took a

16	role in the Clinton scandals, and they may
17	actually have information about Filegate.
18		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  That is
19	completely speculative, and it's way beyond
20	the boundaries of the order.
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  We'll be happy to
22	discuss this with the court tomorrow.


					286
	1		MS. SHAPIRO:  We're happy to
	2	discuss it too, but for purposes right now,
	3	we're not going to allow testimony on, quote,
	4	other Clinton scandals.
	5		MR. KLAYMAN:  Each time you do

	6	something like this, you up the cost and
	7	expense to Judicial Watch and the plaintiffs.
	8	Each time you delay matters.  Each time
	9	you're pushing things off to let the court
10	use up its time and resources.  Does there
11	come a point in time when the Clinton Justice
12	Department says enough is enough and just

13	tries to get at the truth, Ms. Shapiro?
14		MS. SHAPIRO:  Mr. Klayman, you're
15	the one using up the clock with speeches.
16	It's a tired old speech that we've heard.
17	You suggested that we go to the court, and
18	we're happy to do so.
19		MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.
20		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, at

21	this point in time, I'm going to ask that we
22	recess these proceedings.  Mrs. Tripp has


					287
	1	expressed to me that she's exhausted.  She's

	2	been at it since 10:00 today.  She's been up
	3	since 6:00 a.m. this morning.
	4		THE WITNESS:  5:00.
	5		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I am going to ask
	6	that we recess these proceedings.
	7		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me ask you this.
	8	Can we have 15 more minutes?
	9		THE WITNESS:  If you insist,
10	certainly.
11		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Mr. Klayman, do
12	you anticipate wrapping up your direct

13	examination in 15 minutes, pending those
14	questions that you have certified.
15		MR. KLAYMAN:  No, I just need 15
16	more minutes to finish up this line of
17	questioning.
18		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  We'll see where we
19	go.
20		MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't know that
21	I'll finish, but I'll try to get as far as I
22	can.


					288
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	Do you know who hired Craig
	3	Livingstone?
	4		A	I don't know for a fact who hired
	5	Craig Livingstone, no.
	6		Q	Whom do you think hired Craig
	7	Livingstone?
	8			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
	9			THE WITNESS:  I can only tell you
10	who Craig Livingstone told me hired Craig
11	Livingstone.
12			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13		Q	What did he tell you?
14		A	He told me Mrs. Clinton hired him.
15		Q	When did he tell you that?
16		A	Relatively shortly after my arrival

17	in the counsel's office, when he asked me how
18	I managed to get a job like that.  So I asked
19	him, how did he manage to get a job like
20	that?
21		Q	Where was he when he made that
22	statement?


					289
	1		A	In the counsel's office.
	2		Q	Was there a particular office
	3	inside the counsel's office?
	4		A	He was outside -- he was in the

	5	anteroom, the reception area, the support
	6	staff area where my desk was located.
	7		Q	Was anyone present that overheard
	8	that statement?
	9		A	I have no recollection of who was
10	or wasn't there.  Generally speaking, we were
11	all there at the same time, so it could have
12	been any one of the four of us.
13		Q	Did he tell you why Mrs. Clinton
14	hired him?
15		A	No.
16		Q	Did you ever ask him?
17		A	No.
18		Q	Did you ever ask anybody else?
19		A	No.
20		Q	From the statement that
21	Mrs. Clinton hired Mr. Livingstone, did you
22	infer that Mrs. Clinton was behind the whole


						290
	1	FBI files issue?
	2			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

	3			THE WITNESS:  That's a leap.  I
	4	didn't really make a connection at that
	5	point.  What I made a connection in my mind
	6	was he's well connected.  He must be
	7	extremely well connected, and that answered a
	8	lot of questions I might have had.
	9			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10		Q	Did you later make that "leap" in
11	retrospect, up to the time that you exited
12	the Grand Jury on July 28, 1998, and made the
13	statement that I read to you earlier?
14			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.

15			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
16			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

17		Q	You can respond.
18		A	That would not have been why I made
19	the leap.  Craig Livingstone's assertions of
20	how he got his job was not precisely what I
21	was referring to in that statement, no.
22		Q	But you did make the leap?


						291
	1			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
	2			MS. SHAPIRO:  Join.
	3			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

	4		Q	You can respond.
	5		A	It seemed all of a piece.
	6		Q	Why is that?  Tell us the

	7	foundation reason why you came to that
	8	conclusion, the basis of that conclusion.
	9			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
10	Speculation.
11			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

12		Q	You can respond.
13			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  The question
14	again, Mr. Klayman?  I'm sorry.
15			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16		Q	On what basis did you come to the
17	conclusion that Mrs. Clinton was somehow
18	involved in the FBI files matter?
19			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
20			THE WITNESS:  Excuse me.
21			     (Witness conferred with counsel)
22			THE WITNESS:  Mr. Klayman, there


				292
	1	were many contributing small little bits of
	2	information to which I was exposed during
	3	that period.  Some of those came from Craig

	4	Livingstone himself, and, as I said, it all
	5	eventually became of a piece to me, my
	6	opinion, and I think it goes well beyond what
	7	we're here to talk about today, but suffice
	8	it to say, if you will, that I believe that
	9	Craig wanted me to believe that everything he
10	did, he did at the direction of Mrs. Clinton.
11		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12	     Q	Did he say that explicitly to you
13	from time to time?
14	     A	I think it was more implied than it
15	was explicitly stated.  Craig tended to do
16	things that were somewhat questionable in
17	terms of perhaps overstating his own value in
18	very bizarre ways, frankly, and so one would
19	normally, over time I think, take what he
20	said with a grain of salt.
21	     Q	Give me an example of how he led

22	you to believe that he was acting at the


				293
	1	direction of Mrs. Clinton.
	2	     A	Well, there were times when he was

	3	very frustrated with me personally, because I
	4	wouldn't let him in to see Mr. Nussbaum, who
	5	had an extremely busy schedule, and who
	6	clearly had made it rather plain to me that
	7	he didn't have any wish to deal with
	8	Mr. Livingstone, and that he should deal with
	9	Bill Kennedy.
10	     Q	Was Mr. Nussbaum's opinion of

11	Mr. Livingstone to be basically an idiot?
12		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
13		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Only if you know
14	what his opinion is.  Did he ever express an
15	opinion to you, Mr. Nussbaum?
16		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17	     Q	Did you get that impression from
18	Mr. Nussbaum that this guy's an idiot?
19		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
20		MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection.
21		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Did Mr. Nussbaum
22	ever express an opinion to you about


					294
	1	Mr. Livingstone?
	2		THE WITNESS:  I wouldn't say he
	3	expressed an opinion.  He kept asking me who
	4	I meant, so to me, that told me what his
	5	opinion was.
	6		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	7	     Q	In other words, you got a feeling
	8	from Mr. Nussbaum that he had distain towards
	9	Mr. Livingstone?
10		MR. MAZUR:  Object to the form of
11	the question.
12		THE WITNESS:  No, I think he
13	honestly didn't have a lot to do with him.  I

14	think he honestly knew his face, knew what he
15	did, but didn't get into the weeds that
16	deeply.
17		BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18	     Q	Didn't want to get into the weeds?
19		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
20		THE WITNESS:  I don't know that he
21	had the time or inclination to get into the
22	weeds that deeply.


					295
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	To continue, what was it that
	3	Mr. Livingstone told you, by way of example,

	4	that created your belief that he was trying
	5	to convey that he was acting on behalf of
	6	Mrs. Clinton?
	7		A	He would talk into his watch and
	8	act as though he were her covert agent.  He

	9	didn't have an ear piece.  It wasn't a -- it
10	was a regular watch.
11		Q	Was he talking to Mrs. Clinton at
12	the time?
13		A	He would like you to believe so.
14			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
15			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16		Q	What other examples where he tried
17	to convey his agency for Mrs. Clinton?
18			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
19			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

20		Q	You can respond.
21		A	Overall, the impression I had was
22	that he, as I said, was well connected, and


					296
	1	that he had a direct pipeline to
	2	Mrs. Clinton.  Whether or not that was true,

	3	I never formed an opinion one way or another.
	4	I didn't see them having lunch.  It seemed a
	5	form of self aggrandizement.  It didn't seem
	6	necessarily true.  However, that said, this

	7	is a man whose very existence in that
	8	position at The White House was beyond
	9	comprehension for someone like me.

10		Q	In other words, you concluded he
11	must have had friends in high places to get
12	the job?
13			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
14			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15		Q	That was your belief?

16		A	I concluded that he had to be there
17	for a reason, yes.
18		Q	You concluded that he was put there
19	by Mrs. Clinton?
20			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.
21			MR. GAFFNEY:  I join the objection.
22			BY MR. KLAYMAN:


					297
	1		Q	You can respond.
	2		A	I concluded that what he had said
	3	to me was quite possibly true.
	4		Q	That he was put there by
	5	Mrs. Clinton?
	6			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I think she's
	7	already answered the question, Mr. Klayman.

	8			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
	9			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I've never
10	objected to any of your leading questions,
11	because, quite frankly, I'm not a party to

12	this litigation, but I would ask on issues of
13	Mrs. Tripp's opinions, that you not try to
14	lead.
15			THE WITNESS:  I've tried not to be
16	led.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18		Q	Did Mr. Livingstone ever tell you
19	that he had had access to The White House
20	residence?
21		A	Oh, on more than one occasion, yes.
22		Q	On how many occasions?


						298
	1		A	Several times.  Remember when I say
	2	this, please put it in context.  He -- and
	3	you couldn't know this, but he, for instance,
	4	was in the process of trying to date one of
	5	my volunteers; so we received often very
	6	unsolicited bizarre information that none of
	7	us cared to know, about access and his
	8	access, his proximity to the first family,

	9	None of which phased any of us, but clearly
10	impressed him.
11		Q	He told you that he could get into
12	the residence whenever he wanted to?
13		A	Yes.
14			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.
15			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
16			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17		Q	He told you that he took things to
18	Mrs. Clinton in the residence?
19			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection to form.
20			MS. SHAPIRO:  Join that objection.
21			THE WITNESS:  No, he never told me
22	about that.


						299
	1			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	2		Q	You don't know whether he did or he
	3	didn't?
	4		A	Actually he never said that to me.
	5	That's one of the things he didn't say.  I
	6	don't remember that at all.
	7			MR. GAFFNEY:  I object to the use
	8	of questions without a proper factual
	9	foundation.
10			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11		Q	Do you know whether or not he took
12	files to Mrs. Clinton?
13			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.  Form.

14			MR. GAFFNEY:  Objection.  Form.
15			THE WITNESS:  I don't know.  I
16	don't know.
17			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18		Q	Do you know whether he ever

19	attended Christmas parties in the residence?
20		A	I can only tell you that he claimed
21	to have attended.  The only Christmas parties
22	I ever attended, and actually in this case,


					300
	1	it was in the singular, party, staff invited
	2	to a Christmas reception during Christmas
	3	of '93, and I don't recall seeing Craig
	4	there, but I wasn't looking for him.
	5		Q	That's the only Christmas party you
	6	know of where staff was invited to the
	7	residence?
	8		A	No.  No.  It's the only one I

	9	attended; so I don't have another way of
10	telling.
11		Q	Do you know if staff ever having
12	been invited to the residence, other than for
13	a social occasion?
14		A	I'm sure -- I'm not sure what you
15	mean.  What do you mean, other than a social?
16		Q	Did the staff routinely have access
17	to go up to the residence and see
18	Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Clinton?
19		A	Oh, well, certain staff.  I'm quite
20	certain that, I know for a fact, that Bruce
21	Lindsey was back and forth frequently when I
22	worked with him.  Maggie Williams certainly


					301
	1	was.  So staff -- obviously selective staff
	2	who had a need to go over, yeah.  I would not
	3	say it was routine for anyone else.
	4		Q	Did you believe Mr. Livingstone

	5	when he said he had frequent access to the
	6	residence?
	7		A	Well, I believed it more than
	8	talking into the watch, but I wasn't quite
	9	certain of the validity of his claims, only

10	because he had this way of self-promotion.  I
11	will tell you this.  I began to believe him
12	over time.
13		Q	What caused you to begin to believe
14	him over time?
15		A	Because following Mr. Foster's
16	death, he seemed to -- he seemed to have more
17	access.  He seemed to be over more.  He had a
18	different air, completely different demeanor.
19	He was more confident, and again, please, let
20	me note that these are my observations and my
21	opinion.  I'm sure there would be many who
22	would disagree with me.  It's clearly only my


					302
	1	observation.
	2		Q	When you say access, access to
	3	what?
	4		A	Joel Kline, our office in general.
	5	Again, not Bernie Nussbuam, and I know it
	6	sounds a bit as though I'm protecting Bernie
	7	Nussbuam from something.  I'm not.  I'm

	8	clearly not.  I never saw him develop a
	9	relationship with Bernie Nussbuam during my
10	tenure at The White House.
11			I think he attended, if I'm not
12	mistaken, we had a birthday party for Bernie
13	prior to his departure.  His resignation was
14	I believe, March 5th, effective April 5th,
15	and I think in late March 20th something, we
16	had a good-bye birthday for him, and he was
17	there.  I don't remember him being at the

18	farewell party the Nussbuam's threw for their
19	friends.
20		Q	Livingstone did have regular access
21	to Kennedy?
22		A	Oh, they were together all the


					303
	1	time.
	2		Q	Foster?
	3		A	Oh, yes, of course, and Joel Kline.
	4		Q	Are you aware that Livingstone
	5	identified Vince Foster's body in the morgue?
	6			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Objection as to
	7	relevance.
	8			BY MR. KLAYMAN:
	9		Q	You can respond.  I'm just laying a
10	foundation.
11		A	I was aware the following morning
12	of that being true, yes.
13		Q	How did you find out?
14		A	Craig told me.
15		Q	He was boasting about that?
16			MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection to form.

17			THE WITNESS:  He was telling me
18	what he and Bill Kennedy had done, yes.
19			BY MR. KLAYMAN:

20		Q	Did you ask him why he was involved
21	in that?
22		A	Actually, I'm not sure if it was in


					304
	1	the morning or later in the day.  It was that
	2	day, that next day.
	3		Q	Did you ask him why he was involved
	4	in that?
	5		A	I think I was so stunned I didn't

	6	that day ask him much of anything.  The day
	7	that I saw some materials, I asked him why it
	8	was he who had gone along with Mr. Kennedy.
	9		Q	What did he tell you?
10		A	He just said it was my job.  I was
11	supposed to go.
12		Q	Did he say he was sent there by
13	Mrs. Clinton?

14		A	No.
15		Q	Or anyone else?
16		A	No.
17		Q	Did Craig Livingstone ever talk to
18	you about whether or not he had contact with
19	Mr. Clinton, Bill Clinton?
20		A	No, he never seemed to imply
21	directly or indirectly that he knew
22	Mr. Clinton well at all.  It was always


					305
	1	Mrs. Clinton.
	2		Q	Did anyone else ever tell you,
	3	other than Craig Livingstone himself, that
	4	Craig Livingstone had been hired by
	5	Mrs. Clinton?

	6		A	No.
	7		Q	Did you ever talk to Special Agent
	8	Sloan Greeny?
	9		A	I know who he is.  I'm sure I had
10	conversations with him.
11		Q	Did he ever discuss whether or not
12	Mr. Livingstone had been hired by
13	Mrs. Clinton with you?
14		A	I just don't have a specific
15	recollection of conversations I had.  They
16	would have sort of gone over my head.  I

17	wouldn't have thought about them much as
18	being significant.
19		Q	Did Bernie Nussbuam ever say to you
20	that Mrs. Clinton hired Mr. Livingstone?
21		A	No.
22		Q	The subject never came up?


					306
	1		A	I think he would have known his
	2	name, if he thought that to be true.
	3		Q	But you don't know that for a fact?
	4		A	No, of course not.
	5		Q	You didn't discuss it with
	6	Mr. Nussbaum?
	7		A	No.  But Mr. Nussbaum never -- I

	8	will say the fact that he didn't remember
	9	Craig's name was significant to me, because
10	individuals with whom he had dealings or with
11	whom he felt that he would have future
12	interaction, I can promise you their names
13	didn't evade him when he needed them.
14		Q	Did Mr. Nussbaum have nicknames for
15	people sometimes?
16			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I'll going to
17	object as to relevance.
18			MR. KLAYMAN:  It's relevant.
19			MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I don't see how it
20	could possibly be relevant, unless it dealt
21	with one of the other people we've already

22	talked about.


				307
	1		BY MR. KLAYMAN:

	2	     Q	You can respond.
	3	     A	I can't remember.

	4	     Q	Did he ever call somebody like
	5	Zeke, or Claude or anything like that?
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  Objection.
	7	Relevancy.
	8		THE WITNESS:  I'll have to think
	9	about this.  You've thrown this at me from
10	nowhere.
11		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Your 15 minutes
12	are up.  I'd like to talk to Mrs. Tripp and
13	see if she wants to stay.  We're going to
14	call it a day.
15		MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's adjourn it at
16	this point.  We thank you, Mrs. Tripp.
17		MS. WEISMANN:  Before we adjourn,
18	can we get a time count on how much time
19	we've consumed?

20		MR. GILLIGAN:  What time is on the
21	screen?
22		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  6:13.


					308
	1		MS. SHAPIRO:  We need to establish
	2	when to continue and how we handle.  I
	3	understand that Mr. Zaccagnini told us all

	4	that he's available on Friday.  That's his
	5	first available day, which is fine with us.
	6	So we ask Mr. Klayman if that's agreeable
	7	with you.
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll be right back.
	9		MR. GILLIGAN:  I have 5 hours
10	and 59 minutes down.
11		MR. KLAYMAN:  I have 51 minutes
12	left.
13		MR. GILLIGAN:  You have 51 minutes
14	left?
15		THE WITNESS:  No, he only has 1
16	minute left.
17		MR. GILLIGAN:  I'm sorry.  I
18	misspoke.
19		MR. FITTON:  We'll go with your
20	time.

21		MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, the time speaks
22	for itself, but it's nice to have a little


					309
	1	approximation, but we can tell from the
	2	record itself how much time was used.
	3		MS. SHAPIRO:  Do you agree then to
	4	Friday as a date to reconvene?
	5		MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.
	6		MS. SHAPIRO:  What time?
	7		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Earlier, the
	8	better.
	9		MR. KLAYMAN:  Why don't we say
10	at 10:00 a.m.?
11		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Does that give you
12	enough time?
13		THE WITNESS:  Sure.
14		MR. GAFFNEY:  Larry, what issues do
15	you have before the court tomorrow?

16		MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, all the
17	questions that weren't answered and this
18	general misunderstanding.  I don't want this
19	to count as our time, but I'll be happy to
20	discuss what it is.  This misunderstanding
21	about what the order says and doesn't say, I
22	want that cleared up at the meeting.


					310
	1		MS. WEISMANN:  If you could just
	2	define what you believe the misunderstanding
	3	to be?
	4		MR. KLAYMAN:  Ms. Weismann, you're
	5	not counsel of record.
	6		MS. WEISMANN:  I am for the

	7	Department of Defense, and I think for
	8	purposes of your requirement under the local
	9	rule, you need to advise us more clearly.
10		MR. KLAYMAN:  We noted it on the
11	record.  We certified certain questions that
12	we want to have cleared up in time for
13	Ms. Tripp to come back so that we can get
14	answers.  I want a ruling on this very
15	restrictive view about what the judge has
16	said in his order.  I want to be able to
17	raise that with him, along the lines that we
18	discussed during this deposition.
19		MR. GAFFNEY:  Are we going to have
20	a transcript ready for the hearing?
21		MR. KLAYMAN:  No, but we can
22	discuss the issues.


				311
	1		MS. WEISMANN:  We need to be clear
	2	for the court that you believe we have a
	3	misunderstanding.  I think we need to
	4	understand what you believe.
	5		MR. KLAYMAN:  You understand,
	6	Ms. Weismann.
	7		MS. WEISMANN:  No, if I understood
	8	I wouldn't ask the question, Mr. Klayman.

	9	I'm asking it honestly, because I believe
10	before we have this hearing, we're entitled
11	to know with greater specificity what issues
12	you intend to raise with the judge.
13		MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll be happy to call
14	you at 9:00 tomorrow; how's that?  I am going
15	to go back through our notes.
16		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  I just want to add
17	something to the record, and if you all can
18	give me some input, that would be great.  On
19	the anticipated length of cross-examination,
20	I would like to get some input on that.

21	Mrs. Tripp has an assignment due with the
22	Pentagon on the 21st, which if she doesn't


				312
	1	comply, we're very fearful it will result in
	2	her termination.  We're making ourselves
	3	available at great risk to her employment.

	4	Hopefully, we won't be there all day, but
	5	it's possible that we will, and we will try
	6	to seek a continuance from the Department of
	7	Defense on that deadline on that assignment,
	8	but we want to get this over with as well.
	9		What do you all think about
10	cross-examination?
11		MS. SHAPIRO:  It's impossible to
12	evaluate, I think, at this point, because we

13	have to go back and look at the record, but I
14	anticipate a few hours at least.
15		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Historically, has
16	the court limited cross-examination,
17	Mr. Klayman; do you know?
18		MR. KLAYMAN:  Historically, there's
19	been almost no cross-examination.  I think

20	maybe there's like five questions in all of
21	these different depositions.
22		THE WITNESS:  Why do I sense this


				313
	1	might be a different time?
	2		MR. ZACCAGNINI:  Very good.  Thank

	3	you.  I'll see you all 10:00 tomorrow at the
	4	courthouse?
	5		MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.
	6		MS. WEISMANN:  Mr. Klayman, you
	7	will call me at 9:00 a.m.?
	8		MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.
	9		THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off
10	video record at 6:17.
11		     (Whereupon, at 6:17 p.m., the
12		     deposition of LINDA TRIPP was
13		     continued.)
14		      *  *  *  *  *
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