1

 

 

       1             UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE

                         EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA

       2

 

       3    NOTRA TRULOCK, III,           )

                                          )

       4                   Plaintiff,     )

                                          )

       5    v.                            )    Case No. 00-1527-A

                                          )

       6    WEN HO LEE,                   )

                                          )

       7                   Defendant.     )

            ______________________________)

       8                                  )

            NOTRA TRULOCK, III,           )

       9                                  )

                           Plaintiff,     )

      10                                  )

                                          )

      11    v.                            )    Case No. 00-1627-A

                                          )

      12    CHARLES E. WASHINGTON, et al.,)

                                          )

      13                   Defendants.    )

 

      14              VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF WEN HO LEE

                                  Suite 1500E

      15                    300 Central, Southwest

                            Albuquerque, New Mexico

      16                       October 10, 2001

                                   9:15 a.m.             

      17

                      PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL

      18    PROCEDURE, this deposition was:

 

      19    TAKEN BY:      LARRY KLAYMAN

                           ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF

      20

 

      21    REPORTED BY:   Kendra D. Tellez, NM CCR #205

                           P D & O Reporting, Inc.

      22                   Suite 1500E

                           300 Central, Southwest

      23                   Albuquerque, New Mexico  87102

 

      24

 

      25


 

                                                               2

 

 

       1                      A P P E A R A N C E S

 

       2    For the Plaintiff:

 

       3         JUDICIAL WATCH, INC.

                 Attorneys at Law

       4         Suite 725

                 501 School Street, Southwest

       5         Washington, D.C. 20024

                 By:  Larry Klayman         

       6              John L. Martin

                      Thomas J. Fitton

       7

            For the Defendant Lee:

       8

                 SIDLEY, AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD

       9         Attorneys at Law               

                 1501 K Street, Northwest

      10         Washington, D.C. 20005

                 By:  Mr. C. Kevin Marshall

      11

            AND

      12

                 O'NEILL, LYSAGHT & SUN, LLP

      13         Attorneys at Law

                 Suite 700

      14         100 Wilshire Boulevard

                 Santa Monica, California 90401

      15         By:  Mr. Brian A. Sun

 

      16    AND

 

      17         FREEDMAN, BOYD, DANIELS, HOLLANDER, GOLDBERG &    

                 CLINE, P.A.

      18         Attorneys at Law

                 Suite 700

      19         20 First Plaza

                 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

      20         By:  Mr. John D. Cline

 

      21    For the Defendant Vrooman:

 

      22         LAW OFFICE OF GARY HOWARD SIMPSON

                 Attorneys at law

      23         9505 Kingsley Avenue,

                 Bethesda, Maryland 20814

      24         By:  Ms. Alane Tempchine

 

      25


 

                                                               3

 

 

       1    Also Present:  Will Moir (Videographer)

 

       2                   Mr. Anthony J. Coppolino

                           (United States Department of Justice)

       3

                           Ms. Natalia Leons

       4                   Robert S. Sinton

                           Deborah Mayer

       5                   Kevin Van Hutten

                           Mike Lowe

       6                   (Federal Bureau of Investigation)

 

       7                   James E. Green

                           (DOE officer)

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       1

            EXAMINATION OF WEN HO LEE

       2

                     By Mr. Klayman                             9

       3

            SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE                         311

       4

            CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION           312

       5

                                   EXHIBITS

       6    1.   January 4, 2000, letter to Holscher and Cline

                 from Paula G. Burnett                          93

       7    2.   Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum              102

            3.   July 28, 2000, letter to Chang from Holscher  166

       8    4.   Declaration of Robert Vrooman                 186

            5.   Declaration of Washington                     186

       9    6.   Sun memorandum to Ms. Chang, regarding Website

                 Description of Function and Purposes of

      10         the Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund                221

            7.   December 10, 1999, Press Release               229

      11    8.   September 19, 1999, Press Release              236

            9.   Wen Ho Lee Information Packet                  243

      12    10.  Memorandum in support of Motion for

                 Discovery of Materials Related to Selective

      13         Prosecution                                    245

            11.  Affidavit of Mr. Michael Lowe                  259

      14    12.  December 13, 1989, memorandum from Vrooman     272

            13.  Transcript of 60 Minutes interview             298

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                              CERTIFIED QUESTIONS      PAGE   LINE

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                1.  Certified Question                  19      5  

       3        2.  Certified Question                  23     19 

                3.  Certified Question                  60     19

       4        4.  Certified Question                  77     18

                5.  Certified Statement                 78      1

       5        6.  Certified Question                  78     13

                7.  Certified Question                  85      5

       6        8.  Certified Question                  97     11

                9.  Certified Question                 101     19

       7       10.  Certified Question                 107     24

               11.  Certified Question                 122     13

       8       12.  Certified Question                 123      1

               13.  Certified Question                 123      7

       9       14.  Certified Question                 123     24

               15.  Certified Question                 132     25

      10       16.  Certified Question                 133      5

               17.  Certified Question                 135      8

      11       18.  Certified Question                 136     14

               19.  Certified Question                 136     20

      12       20.  Certified Question                 137      1

               21.  Certified Question                 137      6

      13       22.  Certified Question                 137     12

               23.  Certified Question                 138     24

      14       24.  Certified Question                 140      2

               25.  Certified Question                 154     25

      15       26.  Certified Question                 169      1

               27.  Certified Question                 175      5

      16       28.  Certified Question                 177     23

               29.  Certified Question                 214     17

      17       30.  Certified Question                 215      7

               31.  Certified Question                 219     14

      18       32.  Certified Question                 229      9

               33.  Certified Question                 232     10

      19       34.  Certified Question                 243      7

               35.  Certified Question                 246      1

      20       36.  Certified Question                 258     16

               37.  Certified Question                 261     16

      21       38.  Certified Question                 264      1

               39   Certified Question                 264      8

      22       40.  Certified Question                 264     14

               41.  Certified Question                 265      6

      23       42.  Certified Question                 265     12

               43.  Certified Question                 267      3

      24       44.  Certified Question                 268     17

               45.  Certified Question                 269     24

      25       46.  Certified Question                 275     23


 

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       1       47.  Certified Question                 283     19

               48.  Certified Question                 284     15

       2       49.  Certified Question                 285      1

               50.  Certified Question                 306      4

       3       51.  Certified Question                 306     24

               52.  Certified Question                 307      4

       4       53.  Certified Question                 307     13

               54.  Certified Question                 307     20

       5       55.  Certified Question                 308     14

               56.  Certified Question                 308     21

       6       57.  Certified Question                 309      2

               58.  Certified Question                 309      8

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       1              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Good morning.  Today is

 

       2    Wednesday, the 11th of October, 2001.  The time is 9:15

 

       3    a.m.  I am Will Moir, owner of Will Moir Video

 

       4    Productions, located in Albuquerque, New Mexico. 

 

       5              We're here for the deposition of Wen Ho Lee,

 

       6    in the case of Notra Trulock -- excuse me, in the case

 

       7    of Notra Trulock versus Wen Ho Lee, filed in the United

 

       8    States District Court for the District of New Mexico

 

       9    case number, OO-1527-A(E)DBA.  This deposition is being

 

      10    videotaped in the presence of Kendra Tellez, with the

 

      11    recording firm of PD&O.  This deposition is being held

 

      12    at 300 Central Avenue, Southwest, Suite 1500-East,

 

      13    Albuquerque, New Mexico. 

 

      14              Counsel will now state their appearance.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Larry Klayman -- if you could

 

      16    pan to everybody who is here.

 

      17              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you, sir.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Larry Klayman, chairman and

 

      19    general counsel of Judicial Watch, on behalf of

 

      20    Plaintiff Notra Trulock.

 

      21              MR. FITTON:  Tom Fitton, president of

 

      22    Judicial Watch.

 

      23              MR. MARTIN:  John Martin, also with Judicial

 

      24    Watch, on behalf of the Plaintiff.

 

      25              MS. TEMPCHIN:  Alane Tempchin for Defendant


 

                                                               8

 

 

       1    Robert S. Vrooman, on behalf of Gary Simpson and Jack

 

       2    Erikson.

 

       3              MR. MARSHALL:  Kevin Marshall of Sidley,

 

       4    Austin, Brown & Wood, representing Dr. Lee.

 

       5              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Brian Sun, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun,

 

       7    on behalf of Dr. Lee.

 

       8              MR. COPPOLINO:  I'm Anthony Coppolino, with

 

       9    the United States Department of Justice, representing

 

      10    the United States. 

 

      11              MR. GREEN:  Jim Green, Department of Energy,

 

      12    classification officer. 

 

      13              MR. LOWE:  Michael Lowe, Federal Bureau of

 

      14    Investigation. 

 

      15              MS. LEONS:  Natalia Leons, Federal Bureau of

 

      16    Investigation. 

 

      17              MR. SINTON:  Robert Sinton, Federal Bureau of

 

      18    Investigation. 

 

      19              MR. CLINE:  John Cline, counsel for Dr. Lee.

 

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear the

 

      21    last part.

 

      22              MR. CLINE:  Cline, C-L-I-N-E.

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are were you a law firm?       

 

      24              MR. CLINE:  Yes. 

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  What law firm?


 

                                                               9

 

 

       1              MR. CLINE:  Freedman, Boyd, & Daniels.

 

       2              THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The court reporter will

 

       3    now swear in the witness.

 

       4                          WEN HO LEE                    

 

       5         After having been first duly sworn under oath, was

 

       6         questioned and testified as follows:

 

       7                          EXAMINATION

 

       8    BY MR. KLAYMAN:

 

       9         Q.   Mr. Lee, my name is Larry Klayman -- good

 

      10    morning.

 

      11         A.   Good morning.

 

      12         Q.   -- Counsel for Mr. Trulock.  When were you

 

      13    born?

 

      14         A.   I was born December 21st, 1939.

 

      15         Q.   Okay.  And where were you born?

 

      16         A.   Taiwan.

 

      17         Q.   What part of Taiwan?

 

      18         A.   Sen-Lo-Par (phonetic).

 

      19         Q.   Is there a city?

 

      20         A.   It's called Nantou.

 

      21         Q.   And how's that spelled?

 

      22         A.   N-A-N-T-O-U.

 

      23         Q.   T-O-U.  Okay.

 

      24         A.   Somebody T -- somebody's spelling is T-O-W.

 

      25         Q.   And -- and run us through, briefly, your


 

                                                               10

 

 

       1    educational background.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Mr. Klayman, before Mr -- or Dr.

 

       3    Lee answers the question, which is a perfectly

 

       4    acceptable question, I just want to make a statement

 

       5    for the record, given all the parties that we have here

 

       6    at the table today.  There are some folks from the

 

       7    Government here, particularly the gentleman from DOE

 

       8    who is here, I think, as I understand it, as performing

 

       9    a role as a -- what I've been told as a classification

 

      10    reviewer. 

 

      11              And my understanding is that his presence

 

      12    today is to protect against any inadvertent or any type

 

      13    of disclosure of classified information to the extent

 

      14    any of your questioning may go into those areas. 

 

      15              And so I just want to put that on the record,

 

      16    and also indicate that, from our perspective, although

 

      17    we're obviously here to answer questions that are

 

      18    pertinent to the litigation that has been brought by

 

      19    Mr. Trulock, we have to make it clear on the record

 

      20    that we think any questions that exceed the scope of

 

      21    questioning which we think has been defined by the

 

      22    District Court in Virginia, we will instruct Dr. Lee

 

      23    not to answer. Again, but we'll see where the questions

 

      24    go before we even venture into that discussion.

 

      25              Also, I believe the gentleman from the video


 

                                                               11

 

 

       1    production company -- it's not that he misspoke, but I

 

       2    think he said something about the District of New

 

       3    Mexico.  We are in the District of New Mexico, but the

 

       4    case we're talking about is pending in the Eastern

 

       5    District of Virginia.  So I would state that for the

 

       6    record. 

 

       7              So, again, sorry to interrupt, but I think I

 

       8    need to make that statement for the record, and I don't

 

       9    know -- Mr. Coppolino is here from the Government as

 

      10    well.  I don't know if there is anything else that

 

      11    needs to be added about the presence of these other

 

      12    folks from the Government, but that's my understanding

 

      13    as to why they're present here for this deposition.

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, it's -- it's my

 

      15    understanding, in fact, we have an agreement with the

 

      16    Government, that they are going to have twenty days

 

      17    from the date of availability of the video, which will

 

      18    be today, to go through that video and raise any issues

 

      19    with regard to information which may get into national

 

      20    security areas, as they may claim. 

 

      21              However, Mr. Sun, in terms of how this

 

      22    deposition will proceed, it proceeds under the Federal

 

      23    Rules of Civil Procedure.  There is no protective order

 

      24    in place which would give you an opportunity to

 

      25    instruct your client not to answer a question, and that


 

                                                               12

 

 

       1    would be wholly inappropriate if you decided to do

 

       2    that. 

 

       3              We don't have any intent in going behind --

 

       4    beyond the Court's orders, but if you do instruct your

 

       5    client not to answer, obviously, we're going to have to

 

       6    move for attorney's fees and costs, because it's going

 

       7    to require us to go through a briefing process and come

 

       8    back here, and I hope that you won't do that.  That's

 

       9    not the way depositions are conducted.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Well, I'm sure you will  --

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  You'll have an opportunity, in

 

      12    other words, in that twenty days, if you want to make

 

      13    any kind of argument with regard to a question you

 

      14    might want to move to strike or you might want to do

 

      15    this or that, you can do that.  But this is going to be

 

      16    a very slow process if we're going to have to go

 

      17    through that, and it would be wholly inappropriate.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Well, Mr. Klayman, I think you will

 

      19    do what you think is appropriate on behalf of your

 

      20    client, and we will do the same for our client. 

 

      21              I will also make the observation that I've

 

      22    instructed my client, because of the number of parties

 

      23    present and their different interests, that he should

 

      24    pause for a moment after every question posed to him to

 

      25    make sure that the Government has an opportunity to


 

                                                               13

 

 

       1    speak up, if they think it necessary or appropriate in

 

       2    light of your questioning.  I just want that clear for

 

       3    the record, that Dr. Lee is doing that at -- largely at

 

       4    my direction. 

 

       5              So other than these preliminary statements,

 

       6    I'm -- we're ready to proceed.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, and there is one other

 

       8    statement that should be cleared.  I'm not saying this

 

       9    for the record, because we can brief it, but I hope

 

      10    you'll take it into account, is that you have an actual

 

      11    or potential conflict of interest here, given the fact

 

      12    that, as alleged in the Complaint, Dr. Lee and his

 

      13    agents published defamatory information about our

 

      14    client.  And to the extent that you instruct the client

 

      15    not to answer, it could be perceived to be that you're

 

      16    protecting yourself as much as you're protecting him. 

 

      17    And that's why I hope that you will not exercise that

 

      18    in an overbearing way. 

 

      19              I just warn you about this right now, because

 

      20    we've gone through this before.  In fact, you and I

 

      21    have been in depositions before.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  The only part that's accurate about

 

      23    your last statement is that we've been in depositions

 

      24    before.  Other than that, we're ready to proceed, and

 

      25    the record will speak for itself. 


 

                                                               14

 

 

       1              If you think you have some motions you want

 

       2    to bring, feel free to bring those motions.  It's your

 

       3    time today, so you can spend them any way you want.

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, it is my time.  I'm just

 

       5    hoping that you don't try to limit my time by not

 

       6    having him answer questions and putting things on the

 

       7    record which are not necessary.  This was wholly

 

       8    unnecessary.  The Rules of Civil Procedure govern this

 

       9    proceeding.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  I agree with that part.

 

      11              MR. COPPOLINO:  If I may just briefly state, 

 

      12    Mr. Klayman correctly stated that we have reached a

 

      13    stipulation that the transcript of this deposition

 

      14    would be sealed from public disclosure for a period of

 

      15    20 days following receipt of the video in order for

 

      16    there to be a review as to whether there was an

 

      17    inadvertent disclosure of classified information at the

 

      18    deposition.  However, I want to make clear that this is

 

      19    not a classified proceeding.  And that to the extent

 

      20    classified information may be -- may be responsive to a

 

      21    question or that a question may risk the disclosure of

 

      22    classified information, the United States would object

 

      23    and would instruct that classified information not be

 

      24    disclosed in response to a question.

 

      25              Mr. Sun indicated correctly that I have a


 

                                                               15

 

 

       1    classification official from the Department of Energy,

 

       2    and also from the FBI, to assist any party or counsel

 

       3    that wishes to confer so that we can avoid the

 

       4    disclosure of classified information, and that is why

 

       5    those individuals are there.  If either counsel or Mr.

 

       6    -- or Dr. Lee or Mr. Sun wish to confer about an issue

 

       7    as to whether it might disclose classified information,

 

       8    we're happy to do that.

 

       9              To the extent we are certain that the

 

      10    question calls for classified information, we would

 

      11    object and instruct that classified information not be

 

      12    disclosed in response to the question.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same statements with regard to

 

      14    that.  If you -- if you so instruct the witness, given

 

      15    the issues involved here, you do it at your own risk. 

 

      16              One other point is that it's my understanding

 

      17    that Wen Ho Lee -- obviously, it's a matter of public

 

      18    record -- has reached a plea agreement with the

 

      19    Government.  That plea agreement basically closes all

 

      20    issues.  I don't understand what the trepidation would

 

      21    be in having him answer questions as long as he answers

 

      22    truthfully those questions, notwithstanding national

 

      23    security issues. 

 

      24              So, Mr. Sun, to the extent that you instruct

 

      25    him not to answer, there would be no basis in doing


 

                                                               16

 

 

       1    that unless the Government imposed a national security

 

       2    objection.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Well, there'll be a number of

 

       4    reasons why counsel could instruct a witness not to

 

       5    answer, including, but not limited to, privilege,

 

       6    attorney/client privilege, spousal privilege, any of a

 

       7    number of proper invocations of privilege that would

 

       8    allow for the witness to be directed not to answer a

 

       9    question.  And there also are issues regarding

 

      10    relevance, but, again, until we hear your questions --

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes, but you -- you posed your

 

      12    statement based on the scope of Court orders, and that

 

      13    would be inappropriate at this point in time.

 

      14              MR. SUN:  I disagree with you.

 

      15         Q.   Mr. Lee, run us through your educational

 

      16    background, briefly.

 

      17         A.   I got my --

 

      18         Q.   From -- from high school on up.

 

      19         A.   I finished high school in Taiwan and bachelor

 

      20    degree in Taiwan, and I --

 

      21         Q.   Okay.  Where did you go to high school in

 

      22    Taiwan?

 

      23         A.   Kelung, K-E-L-U-N-G.

 

      24         Q.   And where is that located?

 

      25         A.   Kelung.


 

                                                               17

 

 

       1         Q.   And when did you graduate?

 

       2         A.   I don't remember.  I think --

 

       3         Q.   Roughly speaking.

 

       4         A.   About 1959, roughly.

 

       5         Q.   And what happened after high school?

 

       6         A.   I went to college.

 

       7         Q.   Where did you go to college?

 

       8         A.   Cheng Kung University.

 

       9         Q.   How's that spelled?

 

      10         A.   C-H-E-N-G, K-U-N-G.

 

      11         Q.   Two words?

 

      12         A.   Yes.

 

      13         Q.   And where is that located?

 

      14         A.   It's Tainan, T-A-I-N-A-N.

 

      15         Q.   And what did you specialize in at Cheng Kung

 

      16    University?  What was your major?

 

      17         A.   Mechanical engineering.

 

      18         Q.   Did you graduate?

 

      19         A.   Yes.

 

      20         Q.   During your time -- and when did you graduate?

 

      21         A.   1963.

 

      22         Q.   1963?

 

      23         A.   Yes.

 

      24         Q.   During your period at Cheng Kung University,

 

      25    were you a member of any associations or groups?


 

                                                               18

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Vague and ambiguous. 

 

       2              MR. MARSHALL:  What's the relevance of that

 

       3    question?

 

       4         Q.   Were you a member of any student

 

       5    associations?

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.

 

       7         A.   No.

 

       8         Q.   Did you have any contact with any people who

 

       9    had allegiance to the People's Republic of China?

 

      10              MR. MARSHALL:  Relevance.

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance, vague and

 

      12    ambiguous.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  By the way, under the Rules of

 

      14    Civil Procedure, you only have to object as to form; 

 

      15    otherwise, all you're doing is ticking off time here. 

 

      16    You can preserve all of your substantive objections

 

      17    under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  I think I'm doing it

 

      19    appropriately.  I'm not making argumentative objections

 

      20    and statements --

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I'm just telling you, we

 

      22    can move it along quickly if you just say "Objection,"

 

      23    because all of your substantive objections are

 

      24    preserved.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  I'll object as I see fit.


 

                                                               19

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, we'll move as we see fit.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Very well. 

 

       3              Do you remember the question?

 

       4              THE WITNESS:  No.

 

       5         Q.   Were you associ- -- did you have any contact

 

       6    with groups that had ties to the People's Republic of

 

       7    China.

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Let me ask you about time frame. 

 

       9    What time frame are you talking about?

 

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  When he was in college at Cheng

 

      11    Kung.

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Okay.  My understanding is the

 

      13    scope of this deposition is to focus on time frames

 

      14    between 1995 and the present.  I don't see the

 

      15    connection between your line of questioning and the

 

      16    subject matter of this Complaint.  If you could state

 

      17    some for the record, I'd be willing to --

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't have to state anything

 

      19    for the record.

 

      20              MR. SUN:  All right.  I'm going to direct the

 

      21    witness not to answer.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  You're just running out the

 

      23    clock, Mr. Lee -- Mr. Sun.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  I've directed my client not to

 

      25    answer.  You can move on.


 

                                                               20

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes, I think you understand the

 

       2    basis of it.  Okay.  He was under an investigation. 

 

       3    I'll give you this -- this courtesy at this point.  I'm

 

       4    trying to save time here, because there's a one-day

 

       5    limitation initially, before we have to move for more

 

       6    time.  But he was under investigation for allegations

 

       7    of espionage with the People's Republic of China and,

 

       8    consequently, this is a relevant issue. 

 

       9              You are alleging that your client was

 

      10    investigated because he's Chinese.  We are saying he

 

      11    was not investigated because he was Chinese, and our

 

      12    client was defamed. 

 

      13              There are bases for investigation that might

 

      14    hinge on whether or not he had prior contacts with the

 

      15    People's Republic of China.  That's the basis of it.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Well, I disagree with you to this

 

      17    extent, Mr. Klayman:  My understanding of your lawsuit

 

      18    is that this is a libel defamation lawsuit brought by

 

      19    Mr. Trulock against Dr. Lee.  As I understand the

 

      20    Complaint, it has to do with statements allegedly made

 

      21    in court about -- by other individuals about your

 

      22    client.  And I don't see how -- whether or not my

 

      23    client may know some people from 30-plus years ago has

 

      24    anything to do with that subject matter, and for that

 

      25    reason, I'm directing him not to answer.


 

                                                               21

 

 

       1              This is not going to be a deposition where

 

       2    you try to reopen a Government investigation that is

 

       3    now closed.  I think it's appropriate for you to ask

 

       4    questions that involve the subject matter of the

 

       5    Complaint.  I believe that there have been rulings by

 

       6    the district court in the Eastern District of Virginia

 

       7    that have confirmed my viewpoint in that regard. 

 

       8              So until I'm persuaded otherwise, I think

 

       9    your questioning should focus on the subject matter of

 

      10    the lawsuit, which are these statements, declarations,

 

      11    whatever they're called, that were -- are the subject

 

      12    of your Complaint.  And if you would do that, I think

 

      13    you'd make better use of your time today.

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, we will make good use of

 

      15    our time, and we will be moving for appropriate relief

 

      16    and attorney's fees and costs if this continues.  There

 

      17    is nothing that limits our deposition.  You should have

 

      18    read the record before you came here today, Mr. Sun,

 

      19    before you attempted to obstruct -- obstruct it, as

 

      20    you're now doing. 

 

      21              We are entitled to get into all issues here,

 

      22    and there have been no such rulings with any such

 

      23    limitations.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Once again, I disagree.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  So you instruct him not to


 

                                                               22

 

 

       1    answer?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  I instruct him not to answer.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.  That means mark

 

       4    the record at this point.

 

       5         Q.   Were you a member of any student

 

       6    organizations?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Asked and answered.

 

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are you defending him or

 

       9    yourself, Mr. Sun?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  You can answer the question.

 

      11         A.   Would you please repeat the question?

 

      12         Q.   Were you a member of any student

 

      13    organizations?

 

      14         A.   To my best memory, I don't remember.  It's

 

      15    been a while.

 

      16         Q.   After you graduated from Cheng Kung

 

      17    University, what did you do at that time?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Educationwise?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Either professionally or

 

      20    educationwise.

 

      21         A.   I stayed in Taiwan for one year, and then I

 

      22    come to this country.

 

      23         Q.   What year did you come to this country?

 

      24         A.   1964.

 

      25         Q.   And why did you come to this country?


 

                                                               23

 

 

       1         A.   I came for school, for education.

 

       2         Q.   And where did you go to school?

 

       3         A.   Texas A & M.

 

       4         Q.   And what did you study there?

 

       5         A.   Mechanical engineering.

 

       6         Q.   Had you received, what, a Bachelor of Science

 

       7    at Cheng Kung in Taiwan?

 

       8         A.   That's correct.

 

       9         Q.   And you went to Texas A & M to get a master's

 

      10    degree or a doctorate degree?

 

      11         A.   Both.

 

      12         Q.   And when did you graduate from Texas A & M?

 

      13         A.   Towards the end of 1969.

 

      14         Q.   And what did you graduate with?  What degrees?

 

      15         A.   Ph.D.

 

      16         Q.   During your time at Texas A & M, were you a

 

      17    member of any student organizations?

 

      18         A.   To my best memory, I don't remember this.

 

      19         Q.   Did you have contact with anyone or any

 

      20    entity with ties to the People's Republic of China?

 

      21              MR. MARSHALL:  Same objection.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Same objection.  Is there --

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  Who am I getting two objections

 

      24    from now?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  You're getting an objection from


 

                                                               24

 

 

       1    counsel for Dr. Lee.  Objection, relevance.  And I'm

 

       2    going to direct him not to answer that question.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       4         Q.   During the time that -- during your period

 

       5    that you lived in Taiwan, did you ever travel to the

 

       6    People's Republic of China?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  I'm sorry, could you repeat the

 

       8    question?

 

       9         Q.   During the time that you lived in Taiwan, Mr.

 

      10    Lee, did you ever travel to the People's Republic of

 

      11    China?

 

      12              MR. MARSHALL:  Objection to that, relevance.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Who is -- is he with you?

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Yes, he is.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.  Can I just have one

 

      16    counsel make objections?  That's usually the way it's

 

      17    done at depositions.

 

      18              MR. MARSHALL:  Let me say something just to

 

      19    clarify the relevance question and the basis for what

 

      20    Mr. Sun has said.  There have been --

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, who is -- who is

 

      22    defending this deposition?

 

      23              MR. MARSHALL:  Both of us.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Both of us are.  Mr. Marshall's

 

      25    going to make a statement for the record, Mr. Klayman,


 

                                                               25

 

 

       1    so just let him --

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, who's going to handle

 

       3    objections?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  I will handle the objections.  Mr.

 

       5    Marshall will make a statement for the record now.     

 

       6              MR. MARSHALL:  There have been two document

 

       7    requests to Dr. Lee prior to the document requests that

 

       8    accompanied this Notice of Deposition.  Dr. Lee

 

       9    objected to both of them.  You brought a Motion to

 

      10    Compel to overcome those objections, and both your

 

      11    Motions to Compel lost.  I take it that the judge's

 

      12    rulings on both of those Motions to Compel define the

 

      13    limits of relevance in this case. 

 

      14              And I know that Mr. Klayman is well aware of

 

      15    the judge's rulings.  Among the -- the rule -- our

 

      16    objections was that 1995 to the present is the only

 

      17    relevant time period.

 

      18              In addition, you twice asked for documents

 

      19    about Mr. Lee's travels to China.  We objected both

 

      20    times, and, again, the judge ruled in our favor both

 

      21    times.  That's why this question's out of bounds, and

 

      22    that's why most of the questions you've asked so far

 

      23    are out of bounds.  And that's the reason for Mr. Lee's

 

      24    -- for Mr. Sun's objections, although relevance is not

 

      25    generally a reason for telling a client not to answer, 


 

                                                               26

 

 

       1    if you persist in asking questions that are clearly not

 

       2    relevant of the judge's orders, our only conclusion can

 

       3    be you're trying to harass our client.

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  My only conclusion is that

 

       5    you're trying to harass us and run out the clock.  I'm

 

       6    asking background information -- background information

 

       7    here.  You just stated that most of my questions were

 

       8    irrelevant.  I asked two questions, as to whether he

 

       9    was associated with certain student organizations and

 

      10    if he traveled to China.  That question is clearly

 

      11    background information.  I'm entitled to it. 

 

      12              In addition, you're talking about a very

 

      13    limited ruling of a court order, which, frankly, is on

 

      14    appeal to a judge.  It was made by a magistrate at the

 

      15    time.  Those are on appeal.  And these matters are not

 

      16    even bearing with getting background information.  So

 

      17    if you want to persist and just obstruct the

 

      18    deposition, you may proceed.  You'll do it at your own

 

      19    risk, but I'm entitled to ask it.

 

      20              MR. SUN:  My point is simply that the limits

 

      21    of relevance in this case are quite clearly

 

      22    established, and we're going to proceed on that basis.

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, you can do what you want,

 

      24    but just don't run out the clock for me.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  No, Larry, let me make this


 

                                                               27

 

 

       1    suggestion, see if you agree with it, so that we can --

 

       2    we can deal with this issue.  If you would agree that

 

       3    we have a standing objection on relevance throughout

 

       4    your entire taking of depositions today, then I won't

 

       5    have to interrupt each time and say, "Objection,

 

       6    relevance."  That's one proposal I would make you to

 

       7    you now.

 

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  That's fine.  You can have

 

       9    that.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  You stipulate on the record that

 

      11    we having a standing objection on relevance

 

      12    throughout -- for every question posed in the

 

      13    deposition.  Okay?  Just hear me out.  And then unless

 

      14    I direct my client not to answer, I will -- you know,

 

      15    basically, Dr. Lee, you'll answer the question.  All 

 

      16    right?

 

      17              THE WITNESS:  Um-hmm.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  And -- but the stipulation's got to

 

      19    be understanding proviso that I'm not waiving any

 

      20    relevance objections to any questions and that I -- I'm

 

      21    going to -- in doing so, that when I direct Dr. Lee not

 

      22    to answer, it's going to be because we determine at

 

      23    some point that the questioning has really gone beyond

 

      24    the scope to a level where we believe, as previously

 

      25    stated, we will direct Dr. Lee not to answer. 


 

                                                               28

 

 

       1              This proposal is designed, Mr. Klayman, to

 

       2    avoid you being concerned about running out the clock, 

 

       3    avoid speeches by counsel, and allow you to proceed

 

       4    with the deposition, hopefully in a more orderly way. 

 

       5    I make that proposal to you in the spirit of trying to

 

       6    move this along.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  You always have that.  The

 

       8    Federal Rules of Civil Procedure provides that, so I

 

       9    don't have to stipulate to it.  But I'll even stipulate

 

      10    to it, because it is the law. 

 

      11              In answer to Counsel's question about what

 

      12    the magistrate ruled, he ruled that a request asking

 

      13    for all documents concerning the PRC was overly broad. 

 

      14    Okay?  He did not say we could not get into these

 

      15    areas, and these areas are clearly relevant.  You are

 

      16    claiming that our client singled your client out

 

      17    because he is ethnic Chinese.  We're saying that is not

 

      18    the case; that there was a valid basis to investigate

 

      19    him.  And, obviously, one of the bases the people used

 

      20    to investigate individuals who are being accused of

 

      21    breaches of national security are contacts with foreign

 

      22    powers that are adverse to the United States,  and that

 

      23    was a legitimate reason to investigate him. 

 

      24              So it's quite relevant.  And there is no

 

      25    order saying we cannot get into it.  So do you this at


 

                                                               29

 

 

       1    your own risk.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Well, Mr. Klayman, as I understand

 

       3    the judge's rulings and the -- and the motions that

 

       4    were litigated -- and, one, I know of no stay in

 

       5    effect, so believe the judge's order is still in effect

 

       6    unless overruled by a reviewing court -- is that it's

 

       7    really focused on what Mr. Trulock knew, what Dr. Lee

 

       8    knew, what statements were made that might have

 

       9    allegedly defamed or libeled Mr. Trulock.  And I

 

      10    believe that's the proper focus of your examination. 

 

      11    It isn't what other people might have known or what

 

      12    other things might have occurred outside the rubric of

 

      13    Dr. Lee's knowledge or Mr. Trulock's knowledge. 

 

      14              So that's where I believe the proper focus

 

      15    is.  Again, to save time, we've agreed that we'll have

 

      16    a standing objection on relevance, then I will only

 

      17    speak up when necessary to invoke privilege objections

 

      18    or to direct Dr. Lee not to answer because I believe

 

      19    the scope of the question has gone beyond the pale. 

 

      20    And this way, we can move along faster, and I don't

 

      21    have to speak up as much and disrupt your flow.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Why -- why do you have to

 

      23    repeat that?  By repeating, again, you're running out

 

      24    the clock.  That's what you're doing.  It's quite clear

 

      25    what your strategy is here.  So I just say, let it


 

                                                               30

 

 

       1    be, let the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure govern. 

 

       2    If you have a problem with a question, if I've gone

 

       3    beyond the scope, you have an opportunity to move to

 

       4    strike.  And he's got -- he, in effect, has total

 

       5    immunity now as long as he tells the truth.  He's

 

       6    already been convicted of a crime.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Well, do you accept my proposal or

 

       8    not, Mr. Klayman?

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  I accept your proposal, because

 

      10    it's the Rules of Civil Procedure, so stop.  Let me

 

      11    answer my -- let me ask my questions.  If you have a

 

      12    problem with the responses, then you can move to

 

      13    strike, but these are relevant questions.

 

      14              MR. SUN:  I'm agreeing to my proposal, and

 

      15    we'll proceed accordingly.

 

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  These questions are also

 

      17    relevant as to state of mind, intent, and -- and issues

 

      18    involving malice, if, indeed, that becomes an issue in

 

      19    the case.  The Court has not made any rulings, as of

 

      20    yet, as to whether my client is a public figure or

 

      21    not.  And consequently these questions need to be

 

      22    asked.  And even if it made a ruling, that would be

 

      23    subject to review by a judge.

 

      24         Q.   Now, you graduated in 1969.  What did you do

 

      25    at that time, Mr. Lee?


 

                                                               31

 

 

       1         A.   I went to look for job.

 

       2         Q.   And where did you look for a job?

 

       3         A.   I went to look for job, and I spent about --

 

       4    I don't know.  I don't remember -- maybe four or five

 

       5    month to look at a job.

 

       6         Q.   Where did you get a job?  Did you get a job?

 

       7         A.   I get a job in Columbia University, yes.

 

       8         Q.   And what job was that?

 

       9         A.   It's a research work relate to meteorology

 

      10    and the weather.

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Meteorology.

 

      12         A.   Meteorology, weather prediction.

 

      13         Q.   Did you have an immediate supervisor in that

 

      14    job?

 

      15         A.   I have.

 

      16         Q.   What's his name?  What was his name?

 

      17         A.   I don't remember his name.

 

      18         Q.   And how long did you stay at Columbia

 

      19    University?

 

      20         A.   Roughly, about one year.

 

      21         Q.   During the period that you were at Columbia

 

      22    University, did you ever have any contact with anyone

 

      23    with ties to the People's Republic of China?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Same objection.  I'm going to

 

      25    direct him not to answer the question.  It's vague and


 

                                                               32

 

 

       1    ambiguous, too.  What do you mean by "ties"?

 

       2         Q.   You want to use another word?  Do you suggest

 

       3    a word? 

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Why don't you ask a better

 

       5    question.

 

       6         Q.   Did you have contact with anyone who, in any

 

       7    way, had anything to do with the People's Republic of

 

       8    China?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  That's vague and ambiguous.  Calls

 

      10    for speculation.

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are you instructing him not to

 

      12    answer?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  You can answer that question.

 

      14         A.   No.

 

      15         Q.   During the time, up to the point that you

 

      16    left Columbia University, had you ever traveled to the

 

      17    People's Republic of China?

 

      18         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      19         Q.   Up to the point in time that you left

 

      20    Columbia University -- you said you stayed a year --

 

      21    had you ever traveled to the People's Republic of

 

      22    China?

 

      23         A.   Do you mean -- do you mean that year or --

 

      24         Q.   Anytime in your life up to that point.

 

      25         A.   Up to --


 

                                                               33

 

 

       1         Q.   The point you left Columbia University.

 

       2         A.   Did I ever travel to China?  Yeah?

 

       3         Q.   Yes.

 

       4         A.   No.

 

       5         Q.   And what year did you leave Columbia

 

       6    University?

 

       7         A.   I don't remember exactly what year. 

 

       8    Somewhere around 1971 or '72.

 

       9         Q.   Okay.  Up to 1971, did you ever have any

 

      10    friends from the People's Republic of China?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  What do you me "from"?  You mean

 

      12    that they were born there?

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Who came from --

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Immigrated there?

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- who came from.  Came from,

 

      16    immigrated, whatever.  Who -- who were born in the

 

      17    People's Republic of China.

 

      18         Q.   You can answer the question.

 

      19         A.   I don't understand your question.

 

      20         Q.   No disrespect, but are -- is English not a

 

      21    language that you understand?

 

      22         A.   Please let me -- do you want me to answer

 

      23    your --

 

      24         Q.   I mean, I want to understand if it's my -- if

 

      25    it's the English language or it's me.  Is there a


 

                                                               34

 

 

       1    problem with the way I'm phrasing it?

 

       2         A.   No, the definition of your question.  When

 

       3    you say do I know anybody from People Republic of

 

       4    China -- is that what you mean?

 

       5         Q.   Well, this question was, up to 1971, did you

 

       6    ever have any friends who came from or immigrated from

 

       7    the People's Republic of China?

 

       8         A.   No.

 

       9         Q.   Okay.  And up to 1971, you never traveled to

 

      10    the People's Republic of China?  Just to clear that up.

 

      11         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      12         Q.   Up to, and including, 1971, you never

 

      13    traveled to the People's Republic of China?

 

      14         A.   That's correct.

 

      15         Q.   Okay.  What did you do after you left

 

      16    Columbia University in 1971?

 

      17         A.   I don't know is it 1971.  I think it's

 

      18    between 1971 or 1972.  I don't remember.  But I went to

 

      19    work in a company in San Diego.

 

      20         Q.   And what company was that?

 

      21         A.   I don't remember the name.

 

      22         Q.   And what type of work did you do?

 

      23         A.   It's a research work.

 

      24         Q.   What kind of research did you do?

 

      25         A.   Again, it's related to weather prediction and


 

                                                               35

 

 

       1    air pollution.

 

       2         Q.   Did you study courses on weather prediction

 

       3    when you were in university in Taiwan and at Texas

 

       4    A & M?

 

       5         A.    I was major in fluid mechanical, and fluid

 

       6    mechanical has big application for weather prediction.

 

       7         Q.   How long did you stay in that job in San

 

       8    Diego?

 

       9         A.   I don't remember exactly how long.

 

      10         Q.   Well, roughly speaking.

 

      11         A.   Roughly, about one year.

 

      12         Q.   Why did you leave?  Why did you leave?

 

      13         A.   The budget was cut, and several people was -- 

 

      14    got laid off, include me.

 

      15         Q.   Was your work considered not to be up to

 

      16    standard?

 

      17         A.   I don't understand your question.

 

      18         Q.   You were cut because they didn't like your

 

      19    work?

 

      20         A.   I don't believe so.

 

      21         Q.   And what did you do after you left this

 

      22    company?

 

      23         A.   I work at a weather company in Pasadena.

 

      24         Q.   A razor company?

 

      25         A.   No, no, it's a weather.


 

                                                               36

 

 

       1         Q.   Weather?

 

       2         A.   Relating to -- to weather.

 

       3         Q.   Okay.  Moved to Pasadena, California, worked

 

       4    for a weather company?

 

       5         A.   It's a company relate to weather.

 

       6         Q.   And how long -- okay.  And what was your job

 

       7    there?

 

       8         A.   It has something to do with the air pollution.

 

       9         Q.   And, specifically, what did you do concerning

 

      10    air pollution?

 

      11         A.   It's relate to the smog -- smog S-M-O-G --

 

      12    smog concentration above Los Angeles basin.

 

      13         Q.   And how long did you stay in this job?

 

      14         A.   It's approximately more than one year.

 

      15         Q.   Why did you leave?

 

      16         A.   Because I went to work for a company located

 

      17    in Idaho.  I had a better job.

 

      18         Q.   And what year was that?

 

      19         A.   I don't remember exactly what year.

 

      20         Q.   Just give it to me generally.  I don't -- we

 

      21    don't need exact precision.  What year was that,

 

      22    roughly speaking?

 

      23         A.   It's roughly, about 1974 or '75.  I don't

 

      24    remember.

 

      25         Q.   And what was your job position in this new


 

                                                               37

 

 

       1    enterprise in Idaho?

 

       2         A.   I'm a research scientist.

 

       3         Q.   What were you researching?

 

       4         A.   It's in fluid mechanic.

 

       5         Q.   Full mechanics?

 

       6         A.   Yeah, F-L-U-I-D.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Fluid.

 

       8         Q.   Fluid mechanics.  And what was the name of

 

       9    this company?

 

      10         A.   I don't remember.

 

      11         Q.   Who was your supervisor at the company, your

 

      12    immediate supervisor?

 

      13         A.   I don't remember.

 

      14         Q.   How long did you stay at this company?

 

      15         A.   Roughly, about three or four years.

 

      16         Q.   When did you leave the company, roughly

 

      17    speaking?  What year?

 

      18         A.   Must be somewhere around 1978.

 

      19         Q.   1978?

 

      20         A.   It's probably like in 1977 or 1978.  I don't

 

      21    remember.  During that period.

 

      22         Q.   Up to that time period, did you get married?

 

      23         A.   Yes.

 

      24         Q.   When were you married?

 

      25         A.   1970.


 

                                                               38

 

 

       1         Q.   1970.  And who did you marry in 1970?

 

       2         A.   My wife.

 

       3         Q.   When did you first meet your wife?  I take it

 

       4    her name's Sylvia?

 

       5         A.   That's correct.

 

       6         Q.   When did you first meet your wife?

 

       7         A.   Toward the end of 1969.

 

       8         Q.   Where did you meet her?

 

       9         A.   Los Angeles.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  Your wife was born in the People's

 

      11    Republic of China, correct?

 

      12         A.   She was born in Republic of China, not People

 

      13    Republic of China.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.  At that time, it was called the

 

      15    Republic of China, is that what you're saying?

 

      16         A.   That's correct.

 

      17         Q.   Okay.  It later, when Mao Tse-tung took over,

 

      18    it became the People's Republic of China, correct?

 

      19         A.   That's correct.

 

      20         Q.   She was born in mainland China, what's called

 

      21    mainland China?

 

      22         A.   That's correct.

 

      23         Q.   Okay.  Not Taiwan?

 

      24         A.   But she was born in Republic of China, not

 

      25    People Republic of China.


 

                                                               39

 

 

       1         Q.   Why is that distinction important?

 

       2         A.   It's very important.  People -- People

 

       3    Republic of China is communist.  Republic of China is

 

       4    not communist.

 

       5         Q.   Okay.  And when did she come to the United

 

       6    States?

 

       7         A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

 

       8         Q.   You never asked her that?

 

       9         A.   I never asked -- well, I --

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Let me object at this point.  To

 

      11    the extent that some questions may invade or implicate

 

      12    spousal marital communications privilege, I may

 

      13    object.  The questions of this nature, I don't have a

 

      14    problem with, Mr. Klayman.  But I just want to indicate

 

      15    to you that there are areas where that privilege might

 

      16    come into play. 

 

      17              But you can answer the question, Dr. Lee.

 

      18         A.   Can you repeat your question, please?

 

      19         Q.   Roughly speaking, when did your wife Sylvia

 

      20    come to the United States?

 

      21         A.   To my best recollection, I don't know.

 

      22         Q.   Generally speaking?

 

      23         A.   I don't know.

 

      24         Q.   How long have you been married to her?

 

      25         A.   I marry her in 1970.


 

                                                               40

 

 

       1         Q.   So you've been married to her 31 years,

 

       2    correct?

 

       3         A.   That's about right.

 

       4         Q.   In 31 years, you never asked her, and she

 

       5    never told you, when she came to the United States?

 

       6         A.   To my best memory, I don't know.

 

       7         Q.   But you know generally?

 

       8         A.   What do you mean, "generally"?

 

       9         Q.   In fact, she came -- she came to the United

 

      10    States during a period when that country that she was

 

      11    born in was under communist rule, correct?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection, that assumes facts not

 

      13    in evidence, and I think you're missing a few things,

 

      14    but --

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  That's a leading question which

 

      16    I'm entitled to ask.  I'm trying to help him because

 

      17    his memory is gone inexplicably blank on this question.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Well, that's what you call it. 

 

      19    You've misstated the facts, and that's what I'm

 

      20    suggesting.

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  The man is a nuclear scientist. 

 

      22    He's a very sharp individual.  He knows what I'm

 

      23    saying.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  You've assumed that Mrs. Lee came

 

      25    to the United States directly from mainland China, at


 

                                                               41

 

 

       1    least that's what I thought your question presumed.

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Please don't -- Please don't

 

       3    give --

 

       4              MR. SUN:  There is no evidence to support

 

       5    that.

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- don't give speaking

 

       7    objections to coach your witness, please.  We know the

 

       8    game, Brian.  We know the game.

 

       9              MR. SUN:  If you understand the question, you

 

      10    can answer it.

 

      11         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      12         Q.   Now that your counsel has told you the

 

      13    answer, maybe you can answer it.  Did your wife come to

 

      14    the United States through another country?  Did she

 

      15    live in another country, before she came to the United

 

      16    States, other than mainland China?

 

      17         A.   She came to United States from Taiwan.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.  See, that's an example. 

 

      19    This is improper litigation conduct.

 

      20              MR. SUN:  I was trying to help you out, Mr.

 

      21    Klayman.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't want to be helped out. 

 

      23    Okay?  Your help, I don't need.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  I'll take that into consideration.

 

      25         Q.   When did she leave mainland China to go to


 

                                                               42

 

 

       1    Taiwan?

 

       2         A.   This is third time I tell you, to my best

 

       3    memory, I don't know.

 

       4         Q.   So when did she come from Taiwan to the

 

       5    United States?

 

       6         A.   Again, as far as I can recall, I don't know.

 

       7         Q.   Generally, you don't know?

 

       8         A.   I don't know.

 

       9         Q.   Mr. Lee, you've taken polygraphs before,

 

      10    haven't you?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance. 

 

      12         Q.   Have you taken polygraphs?

 

      13         A.   Yes.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.  And you failed some of them, haven't

 

      15    you.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.  Direct him

 

      17    not to answer.  What's that got to do with the subject

 

      18    matter of this lawsuit, Mr. Klayman?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  It has to do with truthfulness

 

      20    and credibility.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  You know, I'm going to direct him

 

      22    not to answer.

 

      23         Q.   When you testified before that you didn't

 

      24    know anyone associated in any way with the People's

 

      25    Republic of China, you answered based upon the fact


 

                                                               43

 

 

       1    that your wife had come from Taiwan, that you didn't

 

       2    include her in that group of coming from the People's

 

       3    Republic of China?

 

       4         A.   I don't --

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Objection, vague and ambiguous,

 

       6    argumentative.  Go ahead.

 

       7         A.   I don't understand your question.  Can you

 

       8    repeat again?

 

       9         Q.   I asked you a question that, up to 1971, did

 

      10    you know anyone who was associated in any way with the

 

      11    People's Republic of China, and you said no.  Do you

 

      12    remember that?

 

      13         A.   Yes.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.  And the reason you didn't include your

 

      15    wife in that category is because you're claiming she

 

      16    came from Taiwan --

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative.

 

      18         Q.   -- is that correct?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Vague and ambiguous.

 

      20         A.   Let me repeat.  Listen carefully.  She was

 

      21    born in China, which is called Republic of China, not

 

      22    People Republic of China when she was born.  And she

 

      23    move with her family to Taiwan.  I don't know when. 

 

      24    And it's also under Peo- -- under Republic of China,

 

      25    not under People Republic of China.  And she move from


 

                                                               44

 

 

       1    Taiwan to United States also under Republic of China,

 

       2    not People Republic of China.  She has nothing to do

 

       3    with People Republic of China.  Is that clear?

 

       4         Q.   Well, you don't remember the dates when she

 

       5    left.  So as far as she know, she may have left the

 

       6    People's Republic of China, correct?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative.

 

       8         Q.   So you didn't tell the truth, did you, when

 

       9    you testified to that?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection, instruct the witness not

 

      11    to answer.

 

      12              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  No.

 

      14         Q.   What, if anything, did you do after the

 

      15    company -- when did you leave the company in Pasadena? 

 

      16    Excuse me, in Idaho?  Was that 1978, just to get back

 

      17    into the frame of reference?

 

      18         A.   I don't remember, but it must be 1978 or

 

      19    '77.  I don't remember.

 

      20         Q.   And what did you do in -- in that time

 

      21    period?  Did you get another job?

 

      22         A.   Yes.  I got a job in Argonne National

 

      23    Laboratory in Chicago.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  It's A-R-G-O-N-N-E, I think.

 

      25         Q.   And what kind of job was that?


 

                                                               45

 

 

       1         A.   It's a fluid mechanic again.

 

       2         Q.   Fluid mechanical?

 

       3         A.   That's correct.

 

       4         Q.   And how long did you stay in this job?

 

       5         A.   Roughly, one year.

 

       6         Q.   And why did you leave?

 

       7         A.   I got a better offer in Los Alamos.

 

       8         Q.   Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago, is

 

       9    that a nuclear laboratory?

 

      10         A.   They do unclassify research work.

 

      11         Q.   Dealing with nuclear matters?

 

      12         A.   They may have some, but -- most of them are

 

      13    nonnuclear.

 

      14         Q.   Did you work on matters involving nuclear

 

      15    issues?

 

      16         A.   I was working on the computer code, which is

 

      17    a fluid mechanic.

 

      18         Q.   And does that deal with nuclear?

 

      19         A.   It is a two-phase-flow fluid mechanic code.

 

      20         Q.   Does it deal with nuclear?

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection, vague and ambiguous.  Do

 

      22    you understand what the term "nuclear" means?

 

      23         Q.   Is there anything that relates in any way to

 

      24    nuclear issues?  Just answer the question.

 

      25         A.   No.


 

                                                               46

 

 

       1         Q.   Why are you finding difficulty answering my

 

       2    questions?  Is it my method of speaking?  I'm trying to

 

       3    figure it out so we can move this along.

 

       4              MR. SUN:  You don't have to respond to that

 

       5    question.  Unless you --

 

       6         Q.   Are you having a problem with the way I'm

 

       7    phrasing things?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  You can answer that.

 

       9         A.   I have a problem with your -- the definition,

 

      10    the vocabulary definition, between you and me, because

 

      11    the way I'm thinking is scientifical definition, and I

 

      12    --

 

      13         Q.   You don't understand the word "nuclear"?

 

      14         A.   I told you, I work on two-phase fluid code,

 

      15    computer code, two-phase fluid.  It is a mechan- --

 

      16    fluid mechanic, and we use that for fluid aspect.

 

      17         Q.   And I asked you whether that had anything to

 

      18    do with nuclear matters.  So is the answer yes?

 

      19         A.   The answer -- the question is, What do you

 

      20    mean nuclear with fluid mechanics?  Do you know that --

 

      21    do you know the relation between nuclear and fluid

 

      22    mechanic?   What -- what do you mean?

 

      23         Q.   Did that particular lab, that Aragonne lab,

 

      24    deal with nuclear matters among other matters?

 

      25         A.   They also deal with many, many nonnuclear


 

                                                               47

 

 

       1    matter, too, Aragonne.

 

       2         Q.   But I asked you about nuclear matters.

 

       3         A.   I told you, I work on two-phase fluid code,

 

       4    which is a fluid mechanic.  And fluid mechanic may have

 

       5    -- can be used for nuclear, maybe not, but I don't know

 

       6    your implication.  I don't know your definition.

 

       7         Q.   I just simply asked, Did the Argonne National

 

       8    Labs involve itself in some nuclear issues?

 

       9         A.   They may.  They may.

 

      10         Q.   Did they, or did they not?

 

      11         A.   They may.  I say they may.

 

      12         Q.   Did they, or did they not?  "May" means they

 

      13    could have.  Did they, or did they not, when you worked

 

      14    there?

 

      15         A.   I know they have some people work on reactor

 

      16    safety.  Reactor safety.

 

      17         Q.   So the answer's yes.

 

      18         A.   Well, reactor safety.  Well, I told you

 

      19    already.

 

      20         Q.   So the answer's yes.

 

      21         A.   I don't know your definition.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  The answer is yes to what?

 

      23         A.   I don't know your definition.

 

      24         Q.   Is a reactor nuclear?

 

      25         A.   Reactor can be nuclear; can be nonnuclear.


 

                                                               48

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  That is very instructive in

 

       2    terms of how the witness is answering questions, and

 

       3    I'm not going belabor it.  We'll be instructive when we

 

       4    ask for attorney's fees and costs.

 

       5         Q.   Now, how did you get your job when you left

 

       6    Argonne National Lab in Chicago?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Mr. Klayman, it's Argonne.

 

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  Argonne.

 

       9         Q.   Did you then get a job at Los Alamos in New

 

      10    Mexico?

 

      11         A.   That's correct.

 

      12         Q.   Okay.  And how did you go about getting that

 

      13    job?

 

      14         A.   What do you mean?

 

      15         Q.   How did you get the job?  Did you apply for

 

      16    the job?

 

      17         A.   I applied, yes.

 

      18         Q.   Did you have someone that you knew at Los

 

      19    Alamos that recommended you for the job?

 

      20         A.   No, I sent an application form.  I sent my

 

      21    resume.  That's all.

 

      22         Q.   When you worked at Argonne Nuclear Labs, did

 

      23    you have a security clearance?

 

      24         A.   I don't remember.

 

      25         Q.   When did you get your job at Los Alamos?


 

                                                               49

 

 

       1         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

       2         Q.   When did you get your job at Los Alamos?  Was

 

       3    that a difficult question?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Is your question was it difficult,

 

       5    or is your question still when did he get the job?

 

       6         Q.   When did you get your job? 

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm just trying to figure

 

       8    out -- maybe you can help -- maybe you can help me, Mr.

 

       9    Sun.  Does he not speak English?  Is this the problem?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Well, I think he speaks English. 

 

      11    We haven't asked for an interpreter.  If you think you

 

      12    want to adjourn and get one, it's up to you.  We --

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, then, I'm trying to

 

      14    figure out why he can't answer a simple question.

 

      15              MR. SUN:  That's your perspective.  Maybe

 

      16    your questions aren't clear or maybe you're asking two

 

      17    questions at once.

 

      18         Q.   Okay.  Let me repeat it again.  When did you

 

      19    get a job at Los Alamos?  Is that difficult to

 

      20    understand, Mr. Lee?

 

      21         A.   Toward the end of 1978.

 

      22         Q.   And what job did you get?

 

      23              MR. COPPOLINO:  Hold on for a second, Mr.

 

      24    Klayman.  I would just observe that the witness is not

 

      25    going to be able to disclose classified details about


 

                                                               50

 

 

       1    his work, but he can certainly describe his duties in a

 

       2    nonclassified manner.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Do you understand what Mr.

 

       4    Coppolino just said?

 

       5              THE WITNESS:  No.  Can you state again?

 

       6              MR. COPPOLINO:  I just stated that the

 

       7    witness can describe his duties at Los Alamos in a

 

       8    nonclassified manner, but is not to divulge the

 

       9    classified nature of any of his work in responding to

 

      10    the question as to what your duties are.

 

      11              THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 

      12              MR. COPPOLINO:  Okay.

 

      13         Q.   What job did you get in 1978?

 

      14         A.   I get a research work on fluid mechanic.

 

      15         Q.   And, generally speaking, what kind of

 

      16    research work?

 

      17         A.   I'm working on the computer code which deal

 

      18    with fluid mechanic.

 

      19         Q.   And what is the computer code used for?

 

      20              MR. COPPOLINO:  Objection.  Hold on.  I would

 

      21    just state that in answering the question, the witness

 

      22    cannot disclose the application of computer codes to

 

      23    nuclear weapons -- nuclear weapons design manufacture. 

 

      24    Thank you.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, you're not saying that


 

                                                               51

 

 

       1    the issue of whether or not computer codes are used

 

       2    with relation to nuclear weapons is classified, are

 

       3    you?

 

       4              MR. COPPOLINO:  No, that's not classified.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  All right.  That's all I'm

 

       6    looking to get here.

 

       7              MR. COPPOLINO:  Well, I was just -- I was

 

       8    really directing my comment to him and not to you.

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yeah, I'm not looking to get

 

      10    the computer codes. 

 

      11              MR. COPPOLINO:  Yeah, I just wanted to tell

 

      12    him that --

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Others already have.

 

      14              MR. COPPOLINO:  -- in describing his research

 

      15    with respect to computer codes, he cannot describe

 

      16    their application to nuclear weapons design. 

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Do you understand?

 

      18              THE WITNESS:  Say again.  I don't quite

 

      19    understand. 

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Can we take a short break, Mr.

 

      21    Klayman?  I need to consult with the Government real

 

      22    quickly about this.

 

      23              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off the

 

      24    record.  The time is 10:12 a.m. 

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me put this question on


 

                                                               52

 

 

       1    the record so you can consult over this.

 

       2         Q.   Do the computer codes have applicability to

 

       3    nuclear weapons?  That's my pending questions. 

 

       4              (Recess taken.)

 

       5              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on the record. 

 

       6    The time is 10:23.  Thank you.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  I had a question pending, and

 

       8    the Government was going to give its landmark ruling.

 

       9              MR. COPPOLINO:  The question was do computer

 

      10    codes have application to nuclear weapons.  No

 

      11    objection to that question as long as there's no

 

      12    reference to specific codes.

 

      13              MR. SUN:  I think that's a yes-or-no answer.

 

      14         Q.   Please answer.

 

      15         A.   I -- I -- I don't understand the question.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Could you say it again or --

 

      17         Q.   Do computer codes have applicability to

 

      18    nuclear weapons?

 

      19         A.   You mean the code I'm working on?

 

      20         Q.   Yes, when you -- when you worked for Los

 

      21    Alamos beginning in 1978.

 

      22         A.   In 1978, that code has no application to

 

      23    nuclear weapon.  Is that okay?  I don't know I can

 

      24    answer?

 

      25         Q.   So the codes that you first started working


 

                                                               53

 

 

       1    on at Los Alamos in 1978 did not have applicability to

 

       2    nuclear weapons?

 

       3         A.   To my best knowledge, did not use them for

 

       4    nuclear weapon application.  Is that okay?

 

       5         Q.   What were they used for?

 

       6         A.   It's a reactor safety.

 

       7         Q.   Nuclear reactor safety?

 

       8         A.   Yes.

 

       9         Q.   During the time that you worked at Los

 

      10    Alamos, what, in addition to these codes for reactor

 

      11    safety, have you worked on, generally speaking?

 

      12              MR. COPPOLINO:  Again, you understand not to

 

      13    mention any code names.  Do you understand that?

 

      14              THE WITNESS:  I cannot mention.

 

      15              MR. COPPOLINO:  You cannot mention code

 

      16    names.  Do you understand that?

 

      17              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 

      18              MR. COPPOLINO:  Okay.  Proceed.

 

      19              MR. SUN:  I'm sorry, could you repeat the

 

      20    question?

 

      21         A.   Yeah, I'm sorry.

 

      22         Q.   Tell me the different things that you've

 

      23    worked on, generally speaking, when you were at Los

 

      24    Alamos.

 

      25         A.   You mean for twenty years?


 

                                                               54

 

 

       1         Q.   Yes.

 

       2         A.   For the last twenty years?

 

       3         Q.   Yes, yes.

 

       4         A.   Generally speaking, I work on computer code

 

       5    and its relate to fluid mechanic for last twenty years.

 

       6         Q.   And you also worked on codes, correct?

 

       7         A.   Computer code.

 

       8         Q.   Computer codes?

 

       9         A.   Yes.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  And later on, during your career at

 

      11    Los Alamos, those computer codes did relate to nuclear

 

      12    weapons, correct?

 

      13         A.   That's correct.

 

      14         Q.   And when did that first occur?

 

      15         A.   I don't remember exactly, but it must be

 

      16    around 1981 or '8- -- '80 or '81, somewhere around

 

      17    there.

 

      18         Q.   During the time period -- when did you leave

 

      19    Los Alamos?  When were you fired from Los Alamos?

 

      20         A.   March 8, 1999.

 

      21         Q.   Why were you fired?

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Objection.  You can answer.  Unless

 

      23    I direct you not to answer, you can answer the

 

      24    question.

 

      25         A.   Bill Richardson fire me.


 

                                                               55

 

 

       1         Q.   Why did he fire you?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection, calls for speculation.

 

       3         A.   You have to ask him.  I don't know why.

 

       4         Q.   Yes, to the best of your knowledge, why were

 

       5    you fired?

 

       6         A.   I say, you have to ask Bill Richardson.  I

 

       7    don't know why he fired me.

 

       8         Q.   You have no idea?

 

       9         A.   I have no idea.

 

      10         Q.   Did it have anything to do with allegations

 

      11    that you had breached national security?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Same objection.

 

      13         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

      14         Q.   You have no clue?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Again, Mr. Klayman, no clue as to

 

      16    why Bill Richardson fired him?  Is that your question?

 

      17         Q.   Yes.  You have no clue as to why you were

 

      18    filed by Secretary of Energy Bill Richardson?

 

      19         A.   Again, to my best knowledge, I don't know

 

      20    why -- why he fire me.  I don't know.

 

      21         Q.   Now, up to the point you were fired, you did

 

      22    have conversations with people at Los Alamos that were

 

      23    your supervisors, did you not?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection as to time frame.  We're

 

      25    talking about 1978 to the present?


 

                                                               56

 

 

       1         Q.   Generally.

 

       2         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

       3         Q.   You had supervisors at Los Alamos over the

 

       4    twenty years that you were there, correct?

 

       5         A.   That's correct.

 

       6         Q.   Who were your supervisors?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Beginning in '78?

 

       8         Q.   Beginning in '78.

 

       9         A.   I can only do the best I can recall or I can

 

      10    remember.  Some of them I don't remember.  In the early

 

      11    time, it's Jim Jackson; and later, this guy called

 

      12    Charlie Hamilton, H-A-M-I-L-T-O-N, Hamilton.  I'm try

 

      13    to do the best I can remember.  There was a guy call

 

      14    Steve White.

 

      15         Q.   Steve White?

 

      16         A.   Yeah.  There was a guy call Paul Whalen,

 

      17    P-A-U-L, Paul, Whalen, W-H-A-L-E-N.  Some of them, I

 

      18    don't remember.  But those I can remember.

 

      19         Q.   When you were fired, what year was that?

 

      20         A.   March 8, 1999.

 

      21         Q.   Okay.  And who was your supervisor then?

 

      22         A.   His name is Dan Butler, D-A-N, B-U-L-T-E-R

 

      23    (sic).

 

      24         Q.   And what was Mr. Butler's job title?

 

      25         A.   To my best knowledge, he may be the acting T


 

                                                               57

 

 

       1    Division leader.  "T," as theoretical.

 

       2         Q.   Right.  He told you why you were fired,

 

       3    didn't he?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Foundation.

 

       5         A.   I remember he told me -- he show me a list,

 

       6    but I don't remember what the detail.

 

       7         Q.   What kind of list?

 

       8         A.   It's a piece paper, said, you know, you

 

       9    violated security, you -- something like that. 

 

      10    Security.  You -- again, to my best memory.  I don't

 

      11    remember the detail.

 

      12         Q.   Now, this was a very difficult period in your

 

      13    life, wasn't it, Dr. Lee?

 

      14         A.   It's very difficult, yes.

 

      15         Q.   And it wasn't very long ago, was it?

 

      16         A.   It's 1999, March 8th, I told you.

 

      17         Q.   Okay.  Only about two-and-a-half-years ago?

 

      18         A.   Um-hmm.

 

      19              MR. SUN:  You should say -- you should say

 

      20    yes or no.  The court reporter can't record you?

 

      21              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Yes.

 

      22         Q.   Consequently, this whole period is very vivid

 

      23    in your memory, is it not?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative.

 

      25         A.   What do you mean -- say again, your question.


 

                                                               58

 

 

       1         Q.   You remember very well this period, because

 

       2    it was a difficult period, correct?

 

       3         A.   I told you, I was fired March 8, 1999, yes.

 

       4         Q.   Okay.  And you were fired, based upon what

 

       5    Mr. Butler showed you, for national security

 

       6    violations?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

       8         Q.   Correct?

 

       9         A.   No.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  So what were you told were the reasons

 

      11    for your firing?

 

      12         A.   It is not national security.  It's the

 

      13    security rule at the lab.  It's a security rule at the

 

      14    lab, but not national security, no.

 

      15         Q.   So the lab has -- Los Alamos Labs has nothing

 

      16    to do with national security?

 

      17              MR. SUN:  That's --

 

      18         A.   No, no, my question --

 

      19         Q.   That's your opinion?

 

      20         A.   No, my question is -- my answer is this:  I

 

      21    was fire.  Dan Butler give me a list -- a piece of

 

      22    paper, had some list, and some of the list has

 

      23    something to do with a security infraction at the lab

 

      24    and has nothing to do with the national security at

 

      25    all.


 

                                                               59

 

 

       1         Q.   So you're saying that violating security

 

       2    rules at the lab does not have anything to do with

 

       3    national security?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Objection, misstates his

 

       5    testimony.  It's argumentative.

 

       6         Q.   Please answer.

 

       7              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Yeah.  If you understand his

 

       9    question, sure.

 

      10         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      11         Q.   What you're saying is, is that the security

 

      12    rules at Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratories have nothing

 

      13    to do U.S. national security?

 

      14              MR. SUN:  That's not what he said.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Please let him answer the

 

      16    question, and don't interrupt.

 

      17              MR. SUN:  I'll interrupt when I see fit.

 

      18         A.   I don't know whether the security --

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  That kind of -- on the record. 

 

      20    That kind of attitude is a defiance of the court.  I

 

      21    hope that it doesn't continue.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Look, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to

 

      23    represent my client as I think it's appropriate. 

 

      24    You're badgering the witness at this point --

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not badgering anyone.


 

                                                               60

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  -- with argumentative questions.

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not badgering anything.  It

 

       3    was a simple question. 

 

       4              MR. SUN:  You are badgering the witness.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, we'll let it speak for

 

       6    itself.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  It will.

 

       8         Q.   Answer the question, please, sir.

 

       9         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  It's your view that the security

 

      11    regulations at Los Alamos Nuclear Labs have nothing to

 

      12    do with U.S. national security?  That's what you're

 

      13    saying, correct?

 

      14         A.   I didn't say that.  I did not say that.

 

      15         Q.   So the rules do have something to do with

 

      16    U.S. national security, correct?

 

      17         A.   I did not -- I did not say that, too.  I'm

 

      18    not agree with you on that either.  I don't know.

 

      19         Q.   These are -- these are --

 

      20         A.   I don't know.

 

      21         Q.   -- technical rules that aren't that

 

      22    important, that's what you're saying, correct?

 

      23         A.   I didn't say that either.

 

      24              MR. LEE:  Objection.  I'm going to direct him

 

      25    not to answer.  This is fruitless.  You can move on,


 

                                                               61

 

 

       1    Mr. Klayman.

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Certify it.

 

       4         Q.   So why were you fired, if these are just

 

       5    technical rules that don't have anything to do with

 

       6    national security?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection, calls for speculation, 

 

       8    asked and answered.

 

       9         Q.   Please answer.

 

      10         A.   Please repeat.

 

      11         Q.   What were you told was the reason for your

 

      12    firing?

 

      13         A.   They told me I violate some security

 

      14    infraction at the lab.  That's all I know.

 

      15         Q.   They told you specifically what rules you

 

      16    violated?

 

      17         A.   I remember one item.  Do you want to know

 

      18    that?

 

      19         Q.   Yes.

 

      20         A.   I remember one item.  They said I -- I wrote

 

      21    down a password, computer password, on piece of paper

 

      22    and lock in my drawer, in my office drawer, which

 

      23    was -- has a lock on the door, and the whole -- that's

 

      24    inside the X Division, and then the X Division has --

 

      25    it's behind a fence.  If you want to get in, you need a


 

                                                               62

 

 

       1    badge to get in.  And then there's another badge, the

 

       2    two badge you have to go in there.  And they told me I

 

       3    cannot write a password on piece of paper and lock --

 

       4    put in my office.  So that part, I remember.

 

       5         Q.   And what else were you told about the reasons

 

       6    for your firing?

 

       7         A.   I don't remember the other item.

 

       8         Q.   Surely you asked why you were being fired,

 

       9    correct?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      11         A.   I don't remember did I ask them why I get

 

      12    fired.  I did not ask them.

 

      13         Q.   You just accepted it?  The firing?

 

      14         A.   I didn't --

 

      15         Q.   No questions asked?

 

      16         A.   I don't remember did I ask them any question

 

      17    why I was fired.  I just don't remember today.

 

      18         Q.   After you were fired, you were indicted, were

 

      19    you not?  You were charged with criminal violations?

 

      20              You don't understand that question?

 

      21              After you were indicted, you were charged

 

      22    with criminal violations of law, correct?

 

      23              Excuse me, after you were fired from your

 

      24    job, the Government later indicted you for criminal

 

      25    violations of law, correct?


 

                                                               63

 

 

       1         A.   I was fired in March 8th, 1999, and I was

 

       2    indicted in December 10, 1999.

 

       3         Q.   And that was -- you were indicted for alleged

 

       4    criminal violations of law, correct?

 

       5         A.   I -- I don't understand.  I don't know how to

 

       6    answer that question.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  It can be answered yes or no.  I

 

       8    think Mr. Klayman is just simply asking you were you

 

       9    charged with violations of the law.

 

      10         Q.   Were you charged with violating the criminal

 

      11    law?

 

      12         A.   I have to say, according to the indictment,

 

      13    it looks like yes.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.

 

      15         A.   However, the indictment is argumentable -- I

 

      16    mean, the -- the indictment is wrong.  That's what I'm

 

      17    saying.  It's not correct.  So I don't know how to

 

      18    answer your question.

 

      19         Q.   And after you were indicted, you were thrown

 

      20    in prison, correct?

 

      21         A.   I was in jail for nine months, yes.

 

      22         Q.   You were in solitary confinement?

 

      23         A.   That's correct, yes.

 

      24         Q.   You complained that you were thrown in

 

      25    solitary confinement because you're Chinese; that you


 

                                                               64

 

 

       1    were being discriminated against, correct?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative as to

 

       3    form -- argumentative, vague as to form.

 

       4         Q.   Correct?

 

       5         A.   No.

 

       6         Q.   You have claimed, have you not, that you were

 

       7    indicted for violations of criminal law because you are

 

       8    ethnic Chinese, correct?

 

       9         A.   I don't understand your question.  Please 

 

      10    repeat.

 

      11         Q.   You have claimed that you were indicted for

 

      12    criminal violations of law because you are ethnic

 

      13    Chinese?

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      15              MR. MARSHALL:  It's also vague.  What do you

 

      16    mean by "you"?

 

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  Please, I -- I don't --

 

      18              MR. MARSHALL:  Personally?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- we don't need -- we don't

 

      20    need objections from two corners.  One corner.

 

      21              MR. MARSHALL:  This has been a big issue in

 

      22    the case.  You should be asking the question --

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 

 

      24    We don't need talking objections, either.  Can we go

 

      25    off the record?


 

                                                               65

 

 

       1              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Excuse me.  We are going

 

       2    off the record.  The time is 10:41.

 

       3                   (Discussion held off the Record.)

 

       4              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you.  We're back on

 

       5    the record.  The time is 10:43.

 

       6         Q.   The question was, is that you -- you have

 

       7    maintained that you were fired because you're ethnic

 

       8    Chinese?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Before you answer the question, 

 

      10    I'm going to make a statement for the record.  We went

 

      11    off the record at Mr. Klayman's request.  While we were

 

      12    off the record, we had a discussion about Mr. Klayman's

 

      13    complaint that my co-counsel was objecting, as well as

 

      14    I, to questions posed by Mr. Klayman in the

 

      15    deposition.  I have advised Mr. Klayman, off the record

 

      16    and on the record, that Mr. Marshall will speak up as

 

      17    appropriate.  I will endeavor to be the primary

 

      18    counsel, stating objections on behalf of the witness,

 

      19    so that we have proper flow here.  But while we were

 

      20    off the record Mr. Klayman made a number of insulting,

 

      21    derogatory comments to both me and my co-counsel.  I

 

      22    think that's wholly inappropriate.  I'm not even going

 

      23    to repeat the nature of those derogatory comments here

 

      24    on the record because there are a number of witnesses

 

      25    in this room that witnessed it. 


 

                                                               66

 

 

       1              I'm going to again request that Mr. Klayman

 

       2    conduct this deposition in a professional, civil manner

 

       3    and try to work out these issues in a professional and

 

       4    appropriate way.  Threats to counsel and insults do not

 

       5    work and are wholly unproductive in this process. 

 

       6              And -- and, again, I would again ask Mr.

 

       7    Klayman on the record, as I did off the record, to

 

       8    avoid this kind of behavior.

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  This question was a direct

 

      10    question which deals with direct issues in this lawsuit

 

      11    which are directly relevant.  When you interject

 

      12    speaking objections, and objections which you don't

 

      13    have to make under the Federal Rules of Civil

 

      14    Procedure, which are already preserved, which in fact I

 

      15    already stipulated to, when co-counsel comes in, who

 

      16    apparently doesn't have the same degree of experience

 

      17    that you have, and starts making these kinds of

 

      18    objections as well, at the same time that you're making

 

      19    them, obstructing an ability to get an answer,

 

      20    obviously you're going to get a response from counsel

 

      21    here. 

 

      22              I want this thing to proceed in an orderly

 

      23    fashion, and the very fact that you're interceding with

 

      24    this particular question shows a lack of good faith.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  And I disagree.  I also --


 

                                                               67

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  And am I upset?  Yes.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  I also demand that you apologize to

 

       3    Mr. Marshall for the commends you made to him off the

 

       4    record.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not going to apologize for

 

       6    any comments that I made.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Very well.  And just for the

 

       8    record, Mr. Marshall is an eminently qualified lawyer. 

 

       9    He's clerked for the U.S. Supreme Court.  I don't think

 

      10    that your comments would withstand any type of close

 

      11    scrutiny.  So you may proceed.  Before you proceed, I

 

      12    might say this:  Mr. Marshall was stating, before you

 

      13    went off the record, was that this case has already

 

      14    caused there to be litigation over the definition of

 

      15    what the term "you" means, Y-O-U, when you're asking

 

      16    questions of Dr. Lee. 

 

      17              And I believe that if Mr. Marshall wants to

 

      18    state for the record what those issues are, he's free

 

      19    to do so.  And --

 

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  I've asked that one counsel --

 

      21              MR. SUN:  -- and our objections relate to

 

      22    that dispute.

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- one counsel make one

 

      24    objection at a time.  And Mr. Marshall's objections had

 

      25    no relevancy, no bearing.  As a former Supreme Court


 

                                                               68

 

 

       1    clerk, he should know that the Federal Rules of Civil

 

       2    Procedure do not require him to make objections to

 

       3    obstruct a deposition.

 

       4              MR. SUN:  He's not doing that.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Not objections of that sort. 

 

       6    And the record will speak for itself.  No apologies are

 

       7    warranted.

 

       8         Q.   Mr. Lee, you have maintained that you were

 

       9    fired because you were ethnic Chinese, correct?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Same objections.

 

      11         A.   Let me ask you, when you say "you," you mean

 

      12    me, or you mean my counsel included?  Everybody, team, 

 

      13    or just me, when you say --

 

      14         Q.   You.

 

      15         A.   Okay.  You -- you say I -- I insist I was

 

      16    fired because of I'm Chinese?  Is that your question?

 

      17         Q.   Yes.

 

      18         A.   Let me say again.  You mean I insist I was

 

      19    fired because I'm Chinese?  Am I right?  Is that your

 

      20    question?

 

      21         Q.   Yes.

 

      22         A.   The answer is no.

 

      23         Q.   It has been your position that you were

 

      24    indicted for crimes because you are ethnic Chinese?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  Same objections previously stated.


 

                                                               69

 

 

       1         A.   Again, you say I -- I insist because I was --

 

       2    I'm Chinese.  That's why I got indictment?  Is that

 

       3    right.

 

       4         Q.   My question was simple.  I'll repeat it now

 

       5    for the fifth time.  It is your -- it has been your

 

       6    position that you were indicted for crimes by the U.S.

 

       7    Government because you're ethnic Chinese?

 

       8         A.   I don't understand what do you mean "is my

 

       9    position."  What do you mean that?   I'm -- I have

 

      10    limited English understanding here, so that's why I

 

      11    want to ask you.

 

      12         Q.   How long have you been in the United States?

 

      13         A.   I came here in 1964.

 

      14         Q.   1964.  And you took courses on English?

 

      15         A.   Yes.

 

      16         Q.   And you've lived here now for 37 years? 

 

      17    You've spoken English for 37 years?

 

      18         A.   I speak Chinese at home most the time.

 

      19         Q.   When you communicated with your workers at

 

      20    Los Alamos, was it mostly in English?

 

      21         A.   Yes.

 

      22         Q.   And you had to have a very good grasp of

 

      23    English to be working at Los Alamos?

 

      24         A.   I don't understand what do you mean "grasp."

 

      25         Q.   You had to understand English pretty well to


 

                                                               70

 

 

       1    get a job at Los Alamos, didn't you?

 

       2         A.   I know my English not good, and I know I get

 

       3    a job in Los Alamos.  That's all I can tell you.

 

       4         Q.   To have a job at Los Alamos is very

 

       5    prestigious, is it not?

 

       6         A.   I don't know about that.

 

       7         Q.   It's a very important nuclear laboratory, is

 

       8    it not?

 

       9         A.   Maybe, but I don't know.

 

      10         Q.   And throughout your twenty years, you had a

 

      11    very high-level job there, did you not?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection.  What do you mean by

 

      13    "high level"?

 

      14         Q.   You had a very high-level job there, did you

 

      15    not?

 

      16         A.   Again, can you explain?  What do you mean

 

      17    "high level"?

 

      18         Q.   What was -- what was your salary when you

 

      19    left Los Alamos?  How much were you making per year?

 

      20         A.   I believe I was making 82K.

 

      21         Q.   $82,000 a year?

 

      22         A.   Yes, about that.

 

      23         Q.   That's good money, isn't it?

 

      24         A.   To my best knowledge, that is very low pay at

 

      25    the lab.


 

                                                               71

 

 

       1         Q.   Are you saying your position at Los Alamos

 

       2    was not important?

 

       3         A.   No, I'm saying I -- compared to other

 

       4    scientists, my pay is low, L-O-W.  Compared to the

 

       5    other scientists with my same background and same year

 

       6    experience, my pay is low.

 

       7         Q.   Are you saying that you didn't have to do

 

       8    most of your business at Los Alamos in English?

 

       9         A.   I didn't say that.  I'm saying my pay is low

 

      10    compared to other scientists.

 

      11         Q.   So let's -- let's get back to the original

 

      12    question.  It has been your position that you were

 

      13    indicted for crimes by the U.S. Government because you

 

      14    are ethnic Chinese, correct?

 

      15         A.   Again, I don't know -- let me repeat it.  Are

 

      16    you saying I was indict by U.S. Government, and the

 

      17    only reason is because I'm Chinese?  Is that your

 

      18    question?

 

      19         Q.   Yes.

 

      20         A.   The answer is no.

 

      21         Q.   Okay.  One reason why you were indicted by

 

      22    the U.S. Government, one reason, is because you are

 

      23    Chinese?  That has been your position, correct?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection, asked and answered, 

 

      25    misstates his testimony, argumentative.


 

                                                               72

 

 

       1         Q.   Answer, please. 

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's a new question.

 

       3         A.   Can you repeat your question?

 

       4         Q.   One reason why you were indicted for crimes

 

       5    by the U.S. Government is because you are Chinese. 

 

       6    That's been your position, correct?

 

       7         A.   Let me see if I understand your question. 

 

       8    You saying one of the reasons I was get indicted is

 

       9    because I'm Chinese?

 

      10         Q.   Yes.

 

      11         A.   The answer is no.

 

      12         Q.   Okay.  Now, one of the reasons that you were

 

      13    investigated for violating security regulations is

 

      14    because you're Chinese.  That's been your position,

 

      15    correct?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

      17         A.   When you say my "position," are you saying I

 

      18    think that's a reason?  I believe that's the reason I

 

      19    got investigate, because I'm Chinese?

 

      20         Q.   Yes.

 

      21         A.   Is that your question?

 

      22         Q.   Yes.

 

      23         A.   My best answer is I don't know.  I don't know

 

      24    why they investigate me.  I don't know why they fire

 

      25    me.  Does that satisfy you?


 

                                                               73

 

 

       1         Q.   Have you ever accused anyone of being a

 

       2    racist in your whole life?

 

       3         A.   Repeat your question.

 

       4         Q.   Have you ever accused anyone of being a

 

       5    racist in your whole life?

 

       6         A.   What do you mean "accuse" in here?

 

       7         Q.   "Accuse" means did you ever charge anyone

 

       8    with being a racist in your life.

 

       9         A.   The answer is no.

 

      10         Q.   And you've never told anyone to do that, have

 

      11    you, on your behalf?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection, to the extent that this

 

      13    answer to this question might implicate --

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  No speaking objections, please.

 

      15              MR. SUN:  -- attorney/client privilege, I'll

 

      16    instruct the witness not to answer.  You can answer it,

 

      17    Dr. Lee, as long --

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  I didn't ask about attorneys.

 

      19              MR. SUN:  As long as it doesn't implicate any

 

      20    attorney/client communications you can answer the

 

      21    question.

 

      22         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone --

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  And that is not subject to

 

      24    attorney/client privilege.  So this question is

 

      25    neutral.  I'm not agreeing to that.


 

                                                               74

 

 

       1         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone to claim that anyone

 

       2    else was racist?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Same admonition, Dr. Lee.

 

       4         A.   I don't understand your question.  Can you

 

       5    repeat it for me?

 

       6         Q.   Did you ever order anyone to ever make a

 

       7    claim that anyone that lives on this earth is racist?

 

       8         A.   Let me see if I understand your question. 

 

       9    Did I ever told somebody to accuse someone, say he is a

 

      10    racist to him?  Is that --

 

      11         Q.   Yes.

 

      12         A.   No.  The answer's no.

 

      13         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone to claim that you

 

      14    were investigated for violations of security

 

      15    regulations because you're Chinese?

 

      16         A.   Say again.

 

      17         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone to make the argument

 

      18    that you were investigated for national security

 

      19    violations because you're Chinese?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Same admonitions as before about

 

      21    attorney/client privilege, Dr. Lee, but you can answer

 

      22    the question.

 

      23              THE WITNESS:  Do you want me to answer or no?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Yeah, so long as you don't reveal

 

      25    attorney/client communications, you can answer the


 

                                                               75

 

 

       1    question.

 

       2         A.   The answer is no.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  My same caveat.  You can't make

 

       4    that claim.  That's not subject to attorney/client. 

 

       5    But we'll just leave that on the record right now.

 

       6         Q.   Do you, Dr. Lee, feel that you've been

 

       7    persecuted because you're Chinese?  Persecuted by the

 

       8    U.S. Government?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  I'm sorry, could you repeat that

 

      10    question?  Ask the court reporter --

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll repeat it.

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Yeah, please.

 

      13         Q.   Is it your position that you've been

 

      14    persecuted by the U.S. Government because you're ethnic

 

      15    Chinese?

 

      16         A.   You say prosecute?

 

      17         Q.   Persecuted.

 

      18         A.   Persecute same as a prosecute?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Well, could you --

 

      20         A.   I don't understand.

 

      21         Q.   All right.  I'll repeat it.  I'll repeat it. 

 

      22    Were you singled out by the U.S. Government for

 

      23    investigation --

 

      24         A.   Yes.

 

      25         Q.   -- because you're Chinese?  Is that your


 

                                                               76

 

 

       1    position?

 

       2         A.   You mean do I feel that way?

 

       3         Q.   Yes.

 

       4         A.   I don't know, because I don't know why I was

 

       5    been investigate.  I don't know.

 

       6         Q.   Okay.  Do you ever -- have you -- have you

 

       7    ever met a Notra Trulock?

 

       8         A.   No, not in my life.

 

       9         Q.   Do you know who he is?

 

      10         A.   I don't know who he is.

 

      11         Q.   Do you know --

 

      12         A.   I know he sue me.  That's all.

 

      13         Q.   Do you know what he -- what he used to do for

 

      14    the Department of Energy?

 

      15         A.   I know he work for DOE.  That's all I know.

 

      16         Q.   Is Mr. Trulock a racist?

 

      17         A.   What?

 

      18         Q.   Is Mr. Trulock a racist?

 

      19         A.   I don't know anything about him.  I can -- I

 

      20    don't know.

 

      21         Q.   Did Mr. Trulock single you out for an

 

      22    investigation because you're Chinese?

 

      23         A.   I don't know why I was fired.  I don't know

 

      24    why -- why I was fired, and I don't know who make that

 

      25    decision I was fire.  The only thing I know is Bill


 

                                                               77

 

 

       1    Richardson fire me in March 8, 1999.

 

       2         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone to say that Mr.

 

       3    Trulock is a racist?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  I think that's been asked and

 

       5    answered.

 

       6         A.   Say again.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  If that's your position.  We'll

 

       8    accept that.

 

       9         Q.   Are you aware that Mr. Trulock has been

 

      10    called a racist in the context of your investigation

 

      11    for national security violations?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      13         A.   I don't know anything about the answer.  I --

 

      14    I don't know him, and I -- I don't know anything what

 

      15    he do or whether he's a rac -- racist --

 

      16         Q.   Racist.

 

      17         A.   -- or not.  I don't know.

 

      18         Q.   Did -- did you tell your lawyers to say that

 

      19    Mr. Trulock is a racist?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Objection, instruct him not to

 

      21    answer, attorney/client privilege.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  No such privilege here. 

 

      23    Certify it.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Certify it.

 

      25         Q.   Did you -- did you --


 

                                                               78

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are you mocking me, Mr. Sun?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Oh, no, I'm not.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  You are mocking me.  Certify

 

       4    that, too.

 

       5         A.   Let me ask you, what do you mean "mocking"?

 

       6         Q.   Mocking, making fun of me.

 

       7              THE WITNESS:  Oh, I'm sorry.

 

       8              MR. SUN:  He thinks I'm making fun of him. 

 

       9    He's mistaken.

 

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  Fortunately, we have an audio

 

      11    here.

 

      12              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 

      13         Q.   Did you give permission to your lawyers to

 

      14    say that Mr. Trulock had singled you out for an

 

      15    investigation because you are Chinese?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection, instruct the witness not

 

      17    to answer.  Implicates attorney/client privilege.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  No such thing.  Certify it.

 

      19              You are alleged, Mr. Sun, in the Complaint to

 

      20    be an agent of Dr. Lee, and by instructing him not to

 

      21    answer, you are obstructing this case, and you have a

 

      22    conflict of interest, and you should withdraw

 

      23    representation.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Then that matter, to the extent you

 

      25    think it's relevant or should be raised, should be


 

                                                               79

 

 

       1    addressed by the Court.  Okay?  I think it's totally

 

       2    frivolous for you to suggest that.  So let's move on.

 

       3         Q.   Has anyone -- has it come to your attention

 

       4    -- strike that.

 

       5              You are aware that you were investigated for

 

       6    national security violations?

 

       7         A.   I don't know about that.

 

       8         Q.   You are aware that you were investigated for

 

       9    alleged security violations?

 

      10         A.   I don't know why they investigate on me. 

 

      11    Does that answer your question?  I -- to my best

 

      12    knowledge, I don't know.

 

      13         Q.   Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of

 

      14    Robert Vrooman?

 

      15         A.   I know he work for the Los Alamos National

 

      16    Lab, yes.

 

      17         Q.   And what was his position?

 

      18         A.   I don't know his position.  I know he work

 

      19    something -- had something to do with the security, to

 

      20    my best knowledge.  That's all I know.  I don't know

 

      21    his position.

 

      22         Q.   Do you know whether or not he has ever stated

 

      23    that Mr. Trulock singled you out because you're Chinese?

 

      24         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

      25         Q.   Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of


 

                                                               80

 

 

       1    Charles Washington?

 

       2         A.   To my best memory, I seen that name on

 

       3    newspaper some time ago.  I don't know when.

 

       4         Q.   Do you know whether or not Charles Washington

 

       5    ever said that you were singled out for investigation

 

       6    by Mr. Trulock because you are ethnic Chinese?

 

       7         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

       8         Q.   These issues were never raised with you by

 

       9    anyone?  This was never brought to your attention by

 

      10    anyone -- 

 

      11         A.   I don't --

 

      12         Q.   -- that Mr. Vrooman and Mr. Washington said

 

      13    that you were singled out for investigation by Mr.

 

      14    Trulock because you're ethnic Chinese?

 

      15         A.   I'm sorry, can you repeat your question?

 

      16         Q.   These statements by Mr. Vrooman and Mr.

 

      17    Washington, if true, that you were singled out for an

 

      18    investigation by Mr. Trulock because you're Chinese,

 

      19    you've never heard that discussed before?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Objection, vague and ambiguous.

 

      21         Q.   Correct?

 

      22         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't believe I have

 

      23    seen any statement like what you just said.  To my best

 

      24    memory.  I don't -- I don't believe I have seen any

 

      25    statement like exactly what you said.


 

                                                               81

 

 

       1         Q.   Okay.  You are aware that one of the bases of

 

       2    the Government's investigation was over whether or not

 

       3    information concerning the W88 warhead had been

 

       4    disclosed to the Chinese?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       6         A.   Can you repeat your question?

 

       7         Q.   You are aware that one of the bases of the

 

       8    Government's investigation of you --

 

       9         A.   One of the basis?

 

      10         Q.   One of the reasons.

 

      11         A.   One the reasons, okay.

 

      12         Q.   Yes.  Was because the -- because they

 

      13    believed that the information about the W88 nuclear

 

      14    warhead had been disclosed to the Chinese?

 

      15         A.   I'm sorry, you have to repeat one more time.

 

      16         Q.   You were aware that one of the reasons why

 

      17    you were investigated was over allegations that

 

      18    information about the W88 nuclear warhead --

 

      19         A.   Okay.  Let me repeat back --

 

      20         Q.   -- was disclosed to the Chinese?

 

      21         A.   Let me repeat your question, see if I

 

      22    understand your question.

 

      23         Q.   Sure.

 

      24         A.   Are you saying I am aware or I know the

 

      25    reason -- one of the reason the Government investigate


 

                                                               82

 

 

       1    on me is because the W88 information was leaked to

 

       2    China?  Is that what you're saying?

 

       3         Q.   Yes.

 

       4         A.   Again, I say I don't know.  To the best

 

       5    knowledge, I don't know why the Government investigate

 

       6    on me.  I don't know why.

 

       7         Q.   And another reason why you were investigated

 

       8    is because you had taken trips to China, to the

 

       9    People's Republic of China?

 

      10         A.   Again, I don't know why the Government

 

      11    investigate on me.  I don't know why.

 

      12         Q.   You don't know from any source why?

 

      13         A.   I don't know why -- what is the reason the

 

      14    Government investigate on me.  I don't know the

 

      15    reason.  I don't know why.

 

      16         Q.   No one ever told you that?  No one ever told

 

      17    you that, that one bases for investigating you is

 

      18    because you had traveled to the People's Republic of

 

      19    China?

 

      20         A.   To my best memory, I don't know why the

 

      21    Government investigate on me, and I don't know -- did

 

      22    anybody told me?  I don't remember anybody told me. 

 

      23    They investigate me because I went to China?  Is that

 

      24    your question?

 

      25         Q.   Yes.


 

                                                               83

 

 

       1         A.   I -- I just don't remember.

 

       2         Q.   Did anyone ever tell you that one reason why

 

       3    you were investigated is because you had had meetings

 

       4    with nuclear scientists of the People -- People's

 

       5    Republic of China.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  You know, at this point, I need to

 

       7    interpose an objection, that although I may allow some

 

       8    of this questioning to continue, I think it's now

 

       9    venturing into the realm of -- of areas that are

 

      10    outside the scope of this litigation.  But I will allow

 

      11    the witness to answer some more questions in the spirit

 

      12    of trying to give you some background and context for

 

      13    the matters that I do believe are within the scope of

 

      14    this litigation.  So you can answer the question.

 

      15         A.   The question -- the answer is, up to today, I

 

      16    still don't know why the Government investigate on me. 

 

      17    I don't know why, and, therefore, I cannot answer all

 

      18    the questions you just asked, because --

 

      19         Q.   All right.  Are you aware that the Government

 

      20    was concerned about the contacts that your wife Sylvia

 

      21    Lee had with individuals in the People's Republic of

 

      22    China?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      24         Q.   And that was a reason for an investigation?

 

      25         A.   Repeat, please.


 

                                                               84

 

 

       1         Q.   Are you aware that another reason for the

 

       2    Government's investigation concerned the contacts

 

       3    which -- which your wife Sylvia Lee had with

 

       4    individuals with the People's Republic of China?

 

       5         A.   I say again, I don't understand why I was

 

       6    being investigate, and I don't know why the Government

 

       7    investigate on me.  I don't know the reason.

 

       8         Q.   Have you ever heard of someone by the name of

 

       9    Hu Side. 

 

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  How is that pronounced? 

 

      11    S-I-D-E?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Hu Side.

 

      13         Q.   Hu Side.

 

      14         A.   I have heard the name, yes.

 

      15         Q.   You met with him, did you not?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.  What's the

 

      17    relevance of that question to this litigation, Mr.

 

      18    Klayman?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  It speaks for itself.  We're

 

      20    talking about bona fide reasons for investigation.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  But, we're not -- I don't -- does

 

      22    it have some relevance to the subject matter of the

 

      23    litigation --

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  -- which is allegations of whether


 

                                                               85

 

 

       1    or not Mr. Trulock was defamed?

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't want to get into a

 

       3    discussion in front of the witness right now.  I'm

 

       4    asking for an answer.  You know what it's about.

 

       5         Q.   Did you ever meet with the anyone by the name

 

       6    of Hu Side?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  You know, I'm going to direct him

 

       8    not to answer that question until I --

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  -- until I get a proper

 

      11    explanation.

 

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's all over the record.  It's

 

      13    been briefed.  I assume you get copies of briefs.  Do

 

      14    you get copies of briefs?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  If you can give me a good

 

      16    explanation about why a meeting with someone like Hu

 

      17    Side is relevant to this litigation, I may let him

 

      18    answer the question.

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's have -- let's have Mr.

 

      20    Lee leave the room, and I'll give you that courtesy,

 

      21    even though I know full well that you know.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Well, why don't we do at a break so

 

      23    we don't waste your time. 

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's part of my -- my ongoing

 

      25    deposition.


 

                                                               86

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  It's you -- that's fine.  Do you

 

       2    want to a break?

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not taking a break.  I want

 

       4    -- you asked for a proffer.  I'm going to give to you. 

 

       5    Please have the witness leave the room.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Oh, okay.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Even though I know that you're

 

       8    opposing this to waste time, I'm willing to do it.

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Oh, okay.  Well, that's fine. 

 

      10    That's fine.  Why don't you leave the room.

 

      11              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  I'm still on.

 

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yeah, leave it on the record.

 

      13              (Mr. Lee leaves room.)

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Despite the fact that you know

 

      15    full well what this is about, the issue of whether or

 

      16    not -- are you listening to me?

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Yes, I am, Mr. Klayman.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- the issue of whether or not

 

      19    it was proper to brand Mr. Trulock, or at least illegal

 

      20    under the law to brand Mr. Trulock a racist and to say

 

      21    that he was engaging in racial profiling, that

 

      22    certainly bears on whether or not they were bona fide

 

      23    reasons to have conducted an investigation.  And it is

 

      24    the other side of the coin of having defamed Mr.

 

      25    Trulock by calling him a racist and saying that he


 

                                                               87

 

 

       1    engaged in racial profiling.  So it's directly

 

       2    relevant.  And it bears on his state of mind, it bears

 

       3    on his intent, it bears on maliciousless in terms of

 

       4    the alleged defamation.  All of those issues.  And

 

       5    that's been out there.  And it's in the public domain.

 

       6              And the Court has not made any rulings on

 

       7    this, as to whether or not the fact that he's a public

 

       8    figure and maliciousness would come into it would

 

       9    apply.  He's waiting for discovery to take place.  So

 

      10    you can't really instruct him not to answer.  He has to

 

      11    be able to answer these questions.

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Well, I think the record, as I

 

      13    understand it, as it exists now, is that Dr. Lee has

 

      14    testified here today that he doesn't know your client,

 

      15    he's heard his name; that he doesn't know whether he's

 

      16    a racist or not; and doesn't recall ever having

 

      17    communicated to anybody suggesting that he should be

 

      18    branded or labeled a racist.  So I don't understand why

 

      19    his having met with Hu Side, or anybody else who is

 

      20    ethnic Chinese, has anything to do with the allegations

 

      21    of your lawsuit.  And for those reasons, I would be

 

      22    instructing him not to answer, because I think you're

 

      23    venturing into the realm of the Government's

 

      24    investigation of Dr. Lee, which is, I think, totally

 

      25    outside the scope of the focus of -- of your


 

                                                               88

 

 

       1    complaint. 

 

       2              Now, I will add this observation.  To the

 

       3    extent that your focus of your questions focus on Mr.

 

       4    Trulock's role in Dr. Lee's investigation and any

 

       5    knowledge that my client has about Mr. Trulock's

 

       6    participation in the investigation, I think that is

 

       7    pertinent and relevant, and I would allow him to answer

 

       8    questions that are tied to Dr. Trulock -- or Mr.

 

       9    Trulock and the investigation.  And to the extent that

 

      10    there's some linkage between Mr. Trulock and the

 

      11    investigation and a meeting with Hu Side, and you can

 

      12    establish that for the record, then I may permit him

 

      13    into answering your questions.

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I don't have to -- see, I

 

      15    don't have to establish anything before you.  Because,

 

      16    you see, you forget your role.  You're not the judge. 

 

      17    This is a not a trial.  This is discovery.  So you are

 

      18    not the Court.

 

      19              MR. SUN:  But --

 

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  And I'm entitled to ask these

 

      21    questions.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  But I'm entitled to protect my

 

      23    witness from harassment, which is what -- I believe

 

      24    these questions certainly go into that realm.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Why is it harassment to ask if


 

                                                               89

 

 

       1    he meets with --  if he met with Hu Side?  Why is that

 

       2    harassment?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Because it's outside the scope of

 

       4    the litigation that you brought, and I don't think it's

 

       5    appropriate for this deposition.

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Is it harassment because Mr. Hu

 

       7    Side is Chinese?  Is that what you're saying?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  No, it's a matter of you're probing

 

       9    into matters of an investigation that may or may not

 

      10    have anything to do with your client's claims.  To the

 

      11    extent that you establish a nexus between your client's

 

      12    claims and the Government's investigation of Dr. Lee,

 

      13    I've just indicated to you, I may be willing to let him

 

      14    answer the questions.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I'm going to ask the

 

      16    questions, and you will instruct him at your own risk.

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Very well.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's bring him back.  It's

 

      19    unfortunate that these things, which have been gone

 

      20    over many, many times in this case, have to be used to

 

      21    try to run the clock out. 

 

      22              THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  I have about 16 minutes

 

      23    left on this videotape, just to let you know.  I'll

 

      24    give you a five-minute warning.

 

      25         Q.   Mr. Lee, did you ever meet with a Hu Side?


 

                                                               90

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Direct him not to answer.

 

       2         Q.   Do you know who Hu Side is?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Same direction.

 

       4         Q.   Okay.  He is a director in China's nuclear

 

       5    program; is he not?

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Same direction.  Don't answer.

 

       7         Q.   One of the reasons that Mr. Trulock included

 

       8    you in a list of names for investigation was because

 

       9    you had met in your hotel room in Beijing with Mr. Hu

 

      10    Side, correct?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.  You can

 

      12    answer the question.

 

      13         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      14         Q.   One of the reasons why you were investigated

 

      15    or included on a list of people to investigate, to your

 

      16    knowledge, was because you met with Hu Side behind

 

      17    closed doors in a Beijing hotel room, correct?

 

      18         A.   The answer is no.  I don't know.  I don't

 

      19    know why I was being investigate, and, therefore, I

 

      20    don't know is it relate to this question or not.  I

 

      21    don't know.

 

      22         Q.   When asked questions by Government

 

      23    investigators concerning whether or not you had

 

      24    discussed classified information with nuclear

 

      25    scientists of the People's Republic of China, you


 

                                                               91

 

 

       1    initially said that you had not, correct?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

       3              MR. COPPOLINO:  Can you hold for one second,

 

       4    Mr. Klayman?  Mr. Klayman, could you consider

 

       5    rephrasing the question, because he's not at liberty to

 

       6    tell you what Government investigators asked him.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  We have documents to that

 

       8    effect.  It's a matter of public record.  Have you read

 

       9    them?

 

      10              MR. COPPOLINO:  I've read many documents, and

 

      11    I know which ones you're referring to.  What -- what is

 

      12    in the newspaper isn't really relevant to --

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  No, we have actual document

 

      14    from you.

 

      15              MR. COPPOLINO:  And your question is just a

 

      16    little broad.  You're asking him -- would you just

 

      17    restate the question, so I understand it more clearly?

 

      18         Q.   You were investigated by the Federal

 

      19    Government for alleged security violations, correct?

 

      20         A.   Let me repeat.  I don't know why the

 

      21    Government investigate on me.  I don't -- to my best

 

      22    knowledge, I don't know why.  And . . .

 

      23         Q.   No one ever told you?

 

      24         A.   I will repeat again.  To my best knowledge, I

 

      25    don't know why the Government investigate on me.


 

                                                               92

 

 

       1         Q.   But no one told you the alleged reasons for

 

       2    your investigation?

 

       3         A.   Are you saying nobody told me why I was

 

       4    investigate?

 

       5         Q.   Yes.

 

       6         A.   I said, I don't know why I was investigate. 

 

       7    If somebody told me, I should know, but -- obviously.

 

       8         Q.   Okay.  You do remember Government

 

       9    investigators asking you whether you provided

 

      10    classified information to nuclear scientists from the

 

      11    People's Republic of China?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection.  As Mr. Coppolino

 

      13    previously stated, Dr. Lee is not at liberty to discuss

 

      14    what communications he had with Government

 

      15    investigators.  I believe that's our understanding of

 

      16    the --

 

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  He didn't say that.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Well, your question --

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  He asked me to rephrase the

 

      20    question, and you're not entitled to make an objection

 

      21    for him.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  No, I'm going to interpose this

 

      23    objection.  One, your phrasing of the question

 

      24    suggested in communications with the Government

 

      25    investigators.  We have an understanding and an


 

                                                               93

 

 

       1    agreement with the Government that we are not to

 

       2    disclose communications with the Government in

 

       3    interviews with the Government.  And because of that,

 

       4    I'm going to instruct him not to answer because we

 

       5    would be in violation or breach of that agreement.

 

       6              Now, if Mr. Coppolino believes otherwise and

 

       7    believes I should instruct the witness to -- the

 

       8    witness not to answer that question -- or instruct the

 

       9    witness to answer the question, I will reconsider my

 

      10    instruction.

 

      11              MR. COPPOLINO:  Right, just give me one

 

      12    second.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  And let me call your attention

 

      14    to a document, which I can put on the record, January

 

      15    4, 2000, from John Kelly and Paula G. Burnett, U.S.

 

      16    Department of Justice, United States Attorneys,

 

      17    District of New Mexico, to Mark Holscher of O'Melveny &

 

      18    Myers, and John D. Cline, Freedman, Boyd Daniels,

 

      19    Hollander, Goldberg, & Cline, Re:  United States vs.

 

      20    Wen Ho Lee, including documents, labeled FBI Bates

 

      21    numbers 4868 to 4950.  And I'll ask that this be marked

 

      22    as Exhibit 1.

 

      23              (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)

 

      24              MR. COPPOLINO:  Mr. Klayman, let me just

 

      25    state for the record, and I think this will help


 

                                                               94

 

 

       1    clarify our position -- and you can correct me if I'm

 

       2