1

 

 

       1             UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE

                         EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA

       2

 

       3    NOTRA TRULOCK, III,           )

                                          )

       4                   Plaintiff,     )

                                          )

       5    v.                            )    Case No. 00-1527-A

                                          )

       6    WEN HO LEE,                   )

                                          )

       7                   Defendant.     )

            ______________________________)

       8                                  )

            NOTRA TRULOCK, III,           )

       9                                  )

                           Plaintiff,     )

      10                                  )

                                          )

      11    v.                            )    Case No. 00-1627-A

                                          )

      12    CHARLES E. WASHINGTON, et al.,)

                                          )

      13                   Defendants.    )

 

      14              VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF WEN HO LEE

                                  Suite 1500E

      15                    300 Central, Southwest

                            Albuquerque, New Mexico

      16                       October 10, 2001

                                   9:15 a.m.             

      17

                      PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL

      18    PROCEDURE, this deposition was:

 

      19    TAKEN BY:      LARRY KLAYMAN

                           ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF

      20

 

      21    REPORTED BY:   Kendra D. Tellez, NM CCR #205

                           P D & O Reporting, Inc.

      22                   Suite 1500E

                           300 Central, Southwest

      23                   Albuquerque, New Mexico  87102

 

      24

 

      25


 

                                                               2

 

 

       1                      A P P E A R A N C E S

 

       2    For the Plaintiff:

 

       3         JUDICIAL WATCH, INC.

                 Attorneys at Law

       4         Suite 725

                 501 School Street, Southwest

       5         Washington, D.C. 20024

                 By:  Larry Klayman         

       6              John L. Martin

                      Thomas J. Fitton

       7

            For the Defendant Lee:

       8

                 SIDLEY, AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD

       9         Attorneys at Law               

                 1501 K Street, Northwest

      10         Washington, D.C. 20005

                 By:  Mr. C. Kevin Marshall

      11

            AND

      12

                 O'NEILL, LYSAGHT & SUN, LLP

      13         Attorneys at Law

                 Suite 700

      14         100 Wilshire Boulevard

                 Santa Monica, California 90401

      15         By:  Mr. Brian A. Sun

 

      16    AND

 

      17         FREEDMAN, BOYD, DANIELS, HOLLANDER, GOLDBERG &    

                 CLINE, P.A.

      18         Attorneys at Law

                 Suite 700

      19         20 First Plaza

                 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

      20         By:  Mr. John D. Cline

 

      21    For the Defendant Vrooman:

 

      22         LAW OFFICE OF GARY HOWARD SIMPSON

                 Attorneys at law

      23         9505 Kingsley Avenue,

                 Bethesda, Maryland 20814

      24         By:  Ms. Alane Tempchine

 

      25


 

                                                               3

 

 

       1    Also Present:  Will Moir (Videographer)

 

       2                   Mr. Anthony J. Coppolino

                           (United States Department of Justice)

       3

                           Ms. Natalia Leons

       4                   Robert S. Sinton

                           Deborah Mayer

       5                   Kevin Van Hutten

                           Mike Lowe

       6                   (Federal Bureau of Investigation)

 

       7                   James E. Green

                           (DOE officer)

       8

 

       9

 

      10

 

      11

 

      12

 

      13

 

      14

 

      15

 

      16

 

      17

 

      18

 

      19

 

      20

 

      21

 

      22

 

      23

 

      24

 

      25


 

                                                               4

 

 

       1

            EXAMINATION OF WEN HO LEE

       2

                     By Mr. Klayman                             9

       3

            SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE                         311

       4

            CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION           312

       5

                                   EXHIBITS

       6    1.   January 4, 2000, letter to Holscher and Cline

                 from Paula G. Burnett                          93

       7    2.   Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum              102

            3.   July 28, 2000, letter to Chang from Holscher  166

       8    4.   Declaration of Robert Vrooman                 186

            5.   Declaration of Washington                     186

       9    6.   Sun memorandum to Ms. Chang, regarding Website

                 Description of Function and Purposes of

      10         the Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund                221

            7.   December 10, 1999, Press Release               229

      11    8.   September 19, 1999, Press Release              236

            9.   Wen Ho Lee Information Packet                  243

      12    10.  Memorandum in support of Motion for

                 Discovery of Materials Related to Selective

      13         Prosecution                                    245

            11.  Affidavit of Mr. Michael Lowe                  259

      14    12.  December 13, 1989, memorandum from Vrooman     272

            13.  Transcript of 60 Minutes interview             298

      15

 

      16

 

      17

 

      18

 

      19

 

      20

 

      21

 

      22

 

      23

 

      24

 

      25


 

                                                               5

 

 

       1

                              CERTIFIED QUESTIONS      PAGE   LINE

       2

                1.  Certified Question                  19      5  

       3        2.  Certified Question                  23     19 

                3.  Certified Question                  60     19

       4        4.  Certified Question                  77     18

                5.  Certified Statement                 78      1

       5        6.  Certified Question                  78     13

                7.  Certified Question                  85      5

       6        8.  Certified Question                  97     11

                9.  Certified Question                 101     19

       7       10.  Certified Question                 107     24

               11.  Certified Question                 122     13

       8       12.  Certified Question                 123      1

               13.  Certified Question                 123      7

       9       14.  Certified Question                 123     24

               15.  Certified Question                 132     25

      10       16.  Certified Question                 133      5

               17.  Certified Question                 135      8

      11       18.  Certified Question                 136     14

               19.  Certified Question                 136     20

      12       20.  Certified Question                 137      1

               21.  Certified Question                 137      6

      13       22.  Certified Question                 137     12

               23.  Certified Question                 138     24

      14       24.  Certified Question                 140      2

               25.  Certified Question                 154     25

      15       26.  Certified Question                 169      1

               27.  Certified Question                 175      5

      16       28.  Certified Question                 177     23

               29.  Certified Question                 214     17

      17       30.  Certified Question                 215      7

               31.  Certified Question                 219     14

      18       32.  Certified Question                 229      9

               33.  Certified Question                 232     10

      19       34.  Certified Question                 243      7

               35.  Certified Question                 246      1

      20       36.  Certified Question                 258     16

               37.  Certified Question                 261     16

      21       38.  Certified Question                 264      1

               39   Certified Question                 264      8

      22       40.  Certified Question                 264     14

               41.  Certified Question                 265      6

      23       42.  Certified Question                 265     12

               43.  Certified Question                 267      3

      24       44.  Certified Question                 268     17

               45.  Certified Question                 269     24

      25       46.  Certified Question                 275     23


 

                                                               6

 

 

       1       47.  Certified Question                 283     19

               48.  Certified Question                 284     15

       2       49.  Certified Question                 285      1

               50.  Certified Question                 306      4

       3       51.  Certified Question                 306     24

               52.  Certified Question                 307      4

       4       53.  Certified Question                 307     13

               54.  Certified Question                 307     20

       5       55.  Certified Question                 308     14

               56.  Certified Question                 308     21

       6       57.  Certified Question                 309      2

               58.  Certified Question                 309      8

       7

 

       8

 

       9

 

      10

 

      11

 

      12

 

      13

 

      14

 

      15

 

      16

 

      17

 

      18

 

      19

 

      20

 

      21

 

      22

 

      23

 

      24

 

      25


 

                                                               7

 

 

       1              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Good morning.  Today is

 

       2    Wednesday, the 11th of October, 2001.  The time is 9:15

 

       3    a.m.  I am Will Moir, owner of Will Moir Video

 

       4    Productions, located in Albuquerque, New Mexico. 

 

       5              We're here for the deposition of Wen Ho Lee,

 

       6    in the case of Notra Trulock -- excuse me, in the case

 

       7    of Notra Trulock versus Wen Ho Lee, filed in the United

 

       8    States District Court for the District of New Mexico

 

       9    case number, OO-1527-A(E)DBA.  This deposition is being

 

      10    videotaped in the presence of Kendra Tellez, with the

 

      11    recording firm of PD&O.  This deposition is being held

 

      12    at 300 Central Avenue, Southwest, Suite 1500-East,

 

      13    Albuquerque, New Mexico. 

 

      14              Counsel will now state their appearance.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Larry Klayman -- if you could

 

      16    pan to everybody who is here.

 

      17              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you, sir.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Larry Klayman, chairman and

 

      19    general counsel of Judicial Watch, on behalf of

 

      20    Plaintiff Notra Trulock.

 

      21              MR. FITTON:  Tom Fitton, president of

 

      22    Judicial Watch.

 

      23              MR. MARTIN:  John Martin, also with Judicial

 

      24    Watch, on behalf of the Plaintiff.

 

      25              MS. TEMPCHIN:  Alane Tempchin for Defendant


 

                                                               8

 

 

       1    Robert S. Vrooman, on behalf of Gary Simpson and Jack

 

       2    Erikson.

 

       3              MR. MARSHALL:  Kevin Marshall of Sidley,

 

       4    Austin, Brown & Wood, representing Dr. Lee.

 

       5              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Brian Sun, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun,

 

       7    on behalf of Dr. Lee.

 

       8              MR. COPPOLINO:  I'm Anthony Coppolino, with

 

       9    the United States Department of Justice, representing

 

      10    the United States. 

 

      11              MR. GREEN:  Jim Green, Department of Energy,

 

      12    classification officer. 

 

      13              MR. LOWE:  Michael Lowe, Federal Bureau of

 

      14    Investigation. 

 

      15              MS. LEONS:  Natalia Leons, Federal Bureau of

 

      16    Investigation. 

 

      17              MR. SINTON:  Robert Sinton, Federal Bureau of

 

      18    Investigation. 

 

      19              MR. CLINE:  John Cline, counsel for Dr. Lee.

 

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear the

 

      21    last part.

 

      22              MR. CLINE:  Cline, C-L-I-N-E.

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are were you a law firm?       

 

      24              MR. CLINE:  Yes. 

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  What law firm?


 

                                                               9

 

 

       1              MR. CLINE:  Freedman, Boyd, & Daniels.

 

       2              THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The court reporter will

 

       3    now swear in the witness.

 

       4                          WEN HO LEE                    

 

       5         After having been first duly sworn under oath, was

 

       6         questioned and testified as follows:

 

       7                          EXAMINATION

 

       8    BY MR. KLAYMAN:

 

       9         Q.   Mr. Lee, my name is Larry Klayman -- good

 

      10    morning.

 

      11         A.   Good morning.

 

      12         Q.   -- Counsel for Mr. Trulock.  When were you

 

      13    born?

 

      14         A.   I was born December 21st, 1939.

 

      15         Q.   Okay.  And where were you born?

 

      16         A.   Taiwan.

 

      17         Q.   What part of Taiwan?

 

      18         A.   Sen-Lo-Par (phonetic).

 

      19         Q.   Is there a city?

 

      20         A.   It's called Nantou.

 

      21         Q.   And how's that spelled?

 

      22         A.   N-A-N-T-O-U.

 

      23         Q.   T-O-U.  Okay.

 

      24         A.   Somebody T -- somebody's spelling is T-O-W.

 

      25         Q.   And -- and run us through, briefly, your


 

                                                               10

 

 

       1    educational background.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Mr. Klayman, before Mr -- or Dr.

 

       3    Lee answers the question, which is a perfectly

 

       4    acceptable question, I just want to make a statement

 

       5    for the record, given all the parties that we have here

 

       6    at the table today.  There are some folks from the

 

       7    Government here, particularly the gentleman from DOE

 

       8    who is here, I think, as I understand it, as performing

 

       9    a role as a -- what I've been told as a classification

 

      10    reviewer. 

 

      11              And my understanding is that his presence

 

      12    today is to protect against any inadvertent or any type

 

      13    of disclosure of classified information to the extent

 

      14    any of your questioning may go into those areas. 

 

      15              And so I just want to put that on the record,

 

      16    and also indicate that, from our perspective, although

 

      17    we're obviously here to answer questions that are

 

      18    pertinent to the litigation that has been brought by

 

      19    Mr. Trulock, we have to make it clear on the record

 

      20    that we think any questions that exceed the scope of

 

      21    questioning which we think has been defined by the

 

      22    District Court in Virginia, we will instruct Dr. Lee

 

      23    not to answer. Again, but we'll see where the questions

 

      24    go before we even venture into that discussion.

 

      25              Also, I believe the gentleman from the video


 

                                                               11

 

 

       1    production company -- it's not that he misspoke, but I

 

       2    think he said something about the District of New

 

       3    Mexico.  We are in the District of New Mexico, but the

 

       4    case we're talking about is pending in the Eastern

 

       5    District of Virginia.  So I would state that for the

 

       6    record. 

 

       7              So, again, sorry to interrupt, but I think I

 

       8    need to make that statement for the record, and I don't

 

       9    know -- Mr. Coppolino is here from the Government as

 

      10    well.  I don't know if there is anything else that

 

      11    needs to be added about the presence of these other

 

      12    folks from the Government, but that's my understanding

 

      13    as to why they're present here for this deposition.

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, it's -- it's my

 

      15    understanding, in fact, we have an agreement with the

 

      16    Government, that they are going to have twenty days

 

      17    from the date of availability of the video, which will

 

      18    be today, to go through that video and raise any issues

 

      19    with regard to information which may get into national

 

      20    security areas, as they may claim. 

 

      21              However, Mr. Sun, in terms of how this

 

      22    deposition will proceed, it proceeds under the Federal

 

      23    Rules of Civil Procedure.  There is no protective order

 

      24    in place which would give you an opportunity to

 

      25    instruct your client not to answer a question, and that


 

                                                               12

 

 

       1    would be wholly inappropriate if you decided to do

 

       2    that. 

 

       3              We don't have any intent in going behind --

 

       4    beyond the Court's orders, but if you do instruct your

 

       5    client not to answer, obviously, we're going to have to

 

       6    move for attorney's fees and costs, because it's going

 

       7    to require us to go through a briefing process and come

 

       8    back here, and I hope that you won't do that.  That's

 

       9    not the way depositions are conducted.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Well, I'm sure you will  --

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  You'll have an opportunity, in

 

      12    other words, in that twenty days, if you want to make

 

      13    any kind of argument with regard to a question you

 

      14    might want to move to strike or you might want to do

 

      15    this or that, you can do that.  But this is going to be

 

      16    a very slow process if we're going to have to go

 

      17    through that, and it would be wholly inappropriate.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Well, Mr. Klayman, I think you will

 

      19    do what you think is appropriate on behalf of your

 

      20    client, and we will do the same for our client. 

 

      21              I will also make the observation that I've

 

      22    instructed my client, because of the number of parties

 

      23    present and their different interests, that he should

 

      24    pause for a moment after every question posed to him to

 

      25    make sure that the Government has an opportunity to


 

                                                               13

 

 

       1    speak up, if they think it necessary or appropriate in

 

       2    light of your questioning.  I just want that clear for

 

       3    the record, that Dr. Lee is doing that at -- largely at

 

       4    my direction. 

 

       5              So other than these preliminary statements,

 

       6    I'm -- we're ready to proceed.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, and there is one other

 

       8    statement that should be cleared.  I'm not saying this

 

       9    for the record, because we can brief it, but I hope

 

      10    you'll take it into account, is that you have an actual

 

      11    or potential conflict of interest here, given the fact

 

      12    that, as alleged in the Complaint, Dr. Lee and his

 

      13    agents published defamatory information about our

 

      14    client.  And to the extent that you instruct the client

 

      15    not to answer, it could be perceived to be that you're

 

      16    protecting yourself as much as you're protecting him. 

 

      17    And that's why I hope that you will not exercise that

 

      18    in an overbearing way. 

 

      19              I just warn you about this right now, because

 

      20    we've gone through this before.  In fact, you and I

 

      21    have been in depositions before.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  The only part that's accurate about

 

      23    your last statement is that we've been in depositions

 

      24    before.  Other than that, we're ready to proceed, and

 

      25    the record will speak for itself. 


 

                                                               14

 

 

       1              If you think you have some motions you want

 

       2    to bring, feel free to bring those motions.  It's your

 

       3    time today, so you can spend them any way you want.

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, it is my time.  I'm just

 

       5    hoping that you don't try to limit my time by not

 

       6    having him answer questions and putting things on the

 

       7    record which are not necessary.  This was wholly

 

       8    unnecessary.  The Rules of Civil Procedure govern this

 

       9    proceeding.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  I agree with that part.

 

      11              MR. COPPOLINO:  If I may just briefly state, 

 

      12    Mr. Klayman correctly stated that we have reached a

 

      13    stipulation that the transcript of this deposition

 

      14    would be sealed from public disclosure for a period of

 

      15    20 days following receipt of the video in order for

 

      16    there to be a review as to whether there was an

 

      17    inadvertent disclosure of classified information at the

 

      18    deposition.  However, I want to make clear that this is

 

      19    not a classified proceeding.  And that to the extent

 

      20    classified information may be -- may be responsive to a

 

      21    question or that a question may risk the disclosure of

 

      22    classified information, the United States would object

 

      23    and would instruct that classified information not be

 

      24    disclosed in response to a question.

 

      25              Mr. Sun indicated correctly that I have a


 

                                                               15

 

 

       1    classification official from the Department of Energy,

 

       2    and also from the FBI, to assist any party or counsel

 

       3    that wishes to confer so that we can avoid the

 

       4    disclosure of classified information, and that is why

 

       5    those individuals are there.  If either counsel or Mr.

 

       6    -- or Dr. Lee or Mr. Sun wish to confer about an issue

 

       7    as to whether it might disclose classified information,

 

       8    we're happy to do that.

 

       9              To the extent we are certain that the

 

      10    question calls for classified information, we would

 

      11    object and instruct that classified information not be

 

      12    disclosed in response to the question.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Same statements with regard to

 

      14    that.  If you -- if you so instruct the witness, given

 

      15    the issues involved here, you do it at your own risk. 

 

      16              One other point is that it's my understanding

 

      17    that Wen Ho Lee -- obviously, it's a matter of public

 

      18    record -- has reached a plea agreement with the

 

      19    Government.  That plea agreement basically closes all

 

      20    issues.  I don't understand what the trepidation would

 

      21    be in having him answer questions as long as he answers

 

      22    truthfully those questions, notwithstanding national

 

      23    security issues. 

 

      24              So, Mr. Sun, to the extent that you instruct

 

      25    him not to answer, there would be no basis in doing


 

                                                               16

 

 

       1    that unless the Government imposed a national security

 

       2    objection.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Well, there'll be a number of

 

       4    reasons why counsel could instruct a witness not to

 

       5    answer, including, but not limited to, privilege,

 

       6    attorney/client privilege, spousal privilege, any of a

 

       7    number of proper invocations of privilege that would

 

       8    allow for the witness to be directed not to answer a

 

       9    question.  And there also are issues regarding

 

      10    relevance, but, again, until we hear your questions --

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes, but you -- you posed your

 

      12    statement based on the scope of Court orders, and that

 

      13    would be inappropriate at this point in time.

 

      14              MR. SUN:  I disagree with you.

 

      15         Q.   Mr. Lee, run us through your educational

 

      16    background, briefly.

 

      17         A.   I got my --

 

      18         Q.   From -- from high school on up.

 

      19         A.   I finished high school in Taiwan and bachelor

 

      20    degree in Taiwan, and I --

 

      21         Q.   Okay.  Where did you go to high school in

 

      22    Taiwan?

 

      23         A.   Kelung, K-E-L-U-N-G.

 

      24         Q.   And where is that located?

 

      25         A.   Kelung.


 

                                                               17

 

 

       1         Q.   And when did you graduate?

 

       2         A.   I don't remember.  I think --

 

       3         Q.   Roughly speaking.

 

       4         A.   About 1959, roughly.

 

       5         Q.   And what happened after high school?

 

       6         A.   I went to college.

 

       7         Q.   Where did you go to college?

 

       8         A.   Cheng Kung University.

 

       9         Q.   How's that spelled?

 

      10         A.   C-H-E-N-G, K-U-N-G.

 

      11         Q.   Two words?

 

      12         A.   Yes.

 

      13         Q.   And where is that located?

 

      14         A.   It's Tainan, T-A-I-N-A-N.

 

      15         Q.   And what did you specialize in at Cheng Kung

 

      16    University?  What was your major?

 

      17         A.   Mechanical engineering.

 

      18         Q.   Did you graduate?

 

      19         A.   Yes.

 

      20         Q.   During your time -- and when did you graduate?

 

      21         A.   1963.

 

      22         Q.   1963?

 

      23         A.   Yes.

 

      24         Q.   During your period at Cheng Kung University,

 

      25    were you a member of any associations or groups?


 

                                                               18

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Vague and ambiguous. 

 

       2              MR. MARSHALL:  What's the relevance of that

 

       3    question?

 

       4         Q.   Were you a member of any student

 

       5    associations?

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.

 

       7         A.   No.

 

       8         Q.   Did you have any contact with any people who

 

       9    had allegiance to the People's Republic of China?

 

      10              MR. MARSHALL:  Relevance.

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance, vague and

 

      12    ambiguous.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  By the way, under the Rules of

 

      14    Civil Procedure, you only have to object as to form; 

 

      15    otherwise, all you're doing is ticking off time here. 

 

      16    You can preserve all of your substantive objections

 

      17    under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  I think I'm doing it

 

      19    appropriately.  I'm not making argumentative objections

 

      20    and statements --

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I'm just telling you, we

 

      22    can move it along quickly if you just say "Objection,"

 

      23    because all of your substantive objections are

 

      24    preserved.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  I'll object as I see fit.


 

                                                               19

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, we'll move as we see fit.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Very well. 

 

       3              Do you remember the question?

 

       4              THE WITNESS:  No.

 

       5         Q.   Were you associ- -- did you have any contact

 

       6    with groups that had ties to the People's Republic of

 

       7    China.

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Let me ask you about time frame. 

 

       9    What time frame are you talking about?

 

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  When he was in college at Cheng

 

      11    Kung.

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Okay.  My understanding is the

 

      13    scope of this deposition is to focus on time frames

 

      14    between 1995 and the present.  I don't see the

 

      15    connection between your line of questioning and the

 

      16    subject matter of this Complaint.  If you could state

 

      17    some for the record, I'd be willing to --

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't have to state anything

 

      19    for the record.

 

      20              MR. SUN:  All right.  I'm going to direct the

 

      21    witness not to answer.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  You're just running out the

 

      23    clock, Mr. Lee -- Mr. Sun.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  I've directed my client not to

 

      25    answer.  You can move on.


 

                                                               20

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes, I think you understand the

 

       2    basis of it.  Okay.  He was under an investigation. 

 

       3    I'll give you this -- this courtesy at this point.  I'm

 

       4    trying to save time here, because there's a one-day

 

       5    limitation initially, before we have to move for more

 

       6    time.  But he was under investigation for allegations

 

       7    of espionage with the People's Republic of China and,

 

       8    consequently, this is a relevant issue. 

 

       9              You are alleging that your client was

 

      10    investigated because he's Chinese.  We are saying he

 

      11    was not investigated because he was Chinese, and our

 

      12    client was defamed. 

 

      13              There are bases for investigation that might

 

      14    hinge on whether or not he had prior contacts with the

 

      15    People's Republic of China.  That's the basis of it.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Well, I disagree with you to this

 

      17    extent, Mr. Klayman:  My understanding of your lawsuit

 

      18    is that this is a libel defamation lawsuit brought by

 

      19    Mr. Trulock against Dr. Lee.  As I understand the

 

      20    Complaint, it has to do with statements allegedly made

 

      21    in court about -- by other individuals about your

 

      22    client.  And I don't see how -- whether or not my

 

      23    client may know some people from 30-plus years ago has

 

      24    anything to do with that subject matter, and for that

 

      25    reason, I'm directing him not to answer.


 

                                                               21

 

 

       1              This is not going to be a deposition where

 

       2    you try to reopen a Government investigation that is

 

       3    now closed.  I think it's appropriate for you to ask

 

       4    questions that involve the subject matter of the

 

       5    Complaint.  I believe that there have been rulings by

 

       6    the district court in the Eastern District of Virginia

 

       7    that have confirmed my viewpoint in that regard. 

 

       8              So until I'm persuaded otherwise, I think

 

       9    your questioning should focus on the subject matter of

 

      10    the lawsuit, which are these statements, declarations,

 

      11    whatever they're called, that were -- are the subject

 

      12    of your Complaint.  And if you would do that, I think

 

      13    you'd make better use of your time today.

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, we will make good use of

 

      15    our time, and we will be moving for appropriate relief

 

      16    and attorney's fees and costs if this continues.  There

 

      17    is nothing that limits our deposition.  You should have

 

      18    read the record before you came here today, Mr. Sun,

 

      19    before you attempted to obstruct -- obstruct it, as

 

      20    you're now doing. 

 

      21              We are entitled to get into all issues here,

 

      22    and there have been no such rulings with any such

 

      23    limitations.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Once again, I disagree.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  So you instruct him not to


 

                                                               22

 

 

       1    answer?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  I instruct him not to answer.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.  That means mark

 

       4    the record at this point.

 

       5         Q.   Were you a member of any student

 

       6    organizations?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Asked and answered.

 

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are you defending him or

 

       9    yourself, Mr. Sun?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  You can answer the question.

 

      11         A.   Would you please repeat the question?

 

      12         Q.   Were you a member of any student

 

      13    organizations?

 

      14         A.   To my best memory, I don't remember.  It's

 

      15    been a while.

 

      16         Q.   After you graduated from Cheng Kung

 

      17    University, what did you do at that time?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Educationwise?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Either professionally or

 

      20    educationwise.

 

      21         A.   I stayed in Taiwan for one year, and then I

 

      22    come to this country.

 

      23         Q.   What year did you come to this country?

 

      24         A.   1964.

 

      25         Q.   And why did you come to this country?


 

                                                               23

 

 

       1         A.   I came for school, for education.

 

       2         Q.   And where did you go to school?

 

       3         A.   Texas A & M.

 

       4         Q.   And what did you study there?

 

       5         A.   Mechanical engineering.

 

       6         Q.   Had you received, what, a Bachelor of Science

 

       7    at Cheng Kung in Taiwan?

 

       8         A.   That's correct.

 

       9         Q.   And you went to Texas A & M to get a master's

 

      10    degree or a doctorate degree?

 

      11         A.   Both.

 

      12         Q.   And when did you graduate from Texas A & M?

 

      13         A.   Towards the end of 1969.

 

      14         Q.   And what did you graduate with?  What degrees?

 

      15         A.   Ph.D.

 

      16         Q.   During your time at Texas A & M, were you a

 

      17    member of any student organizations?

 

      18         A.   To my best memory, I don't remember this.

 

      19         Q.   Did you have contact with anyone or any

 

      20    entity with ties to the People's Republic of China?

 

      21              MR. MARSHALL:  Same objection.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Same objection.  Is there --

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  Who am I getting two objections

 

      24    from now?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  You're getting an objection from


 

                                                               24

 

 

       1    counsel for Dr. Lee.  Objection, relevance.  And I'm

 

       2    going to direct him not to answer that question.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       4         Q.   During the time that -- during your period

 

       5    that you lived in Taiwan, did you ever travel to the

 

       6    People's Republic of China?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  I'm sorry, could you repeat the

 

       8    question?

 

       9         Q.   During the time that you lived in Taiwan, Mr.

 

      10    Lee, did you ever travel to the People's Republic of

 

      11    China?

 

      12              MR. MARSHALL:  Objection to that, relevance.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Who is -- is he with you?

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Yes, he is.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.  Can I just have one

 

      16    counsel make objections?  That's usually the way it's

 

      17    done at depositions.

 

      18              MR. MARSHALL:  Let me say something just to

 

      19    clarify the relevance question and the basis for what

 

      20    Mr. Sun has said.  There have been --

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, who is -- who is

 

      22    defending this deposition?

 

      23              MR. MARSHALL:  Both of us.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Both of us are.  Mr. Marshall's

 

      25    going to make a statement for the record, Mr. Klayman,


 

                                                               25

 

 

       1    so just let him --

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, who's going to handle

 

       3    objections?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  I will handle the objections.  Mr.

 

       5    Marshall will make a statement for the record now.     

 

       6              MR. MARSHALL:  There have been two document

 

       7    requests to Dr. Lee prior to the document requests that

 

       8    accompanied this Notice of Deposition.  Dr. Lee

 

       9    objected to both of them.  You brought a Motion to

 

      10    Compel to overcome those objections, and both your

 

      11    Motions to Compel lost.  I take it that the judge's

 

      12    rulings on both of those Motions to Compel define the

 

      13    limits of relevance in this case. 

 

      14              And I know that Mr. Klayman is well aware of

 

      15    the judge's rulings.  Among the -- the rule -- our

 

      16    objections was that 1995 to the present is the only

 

      17    relevant time period.

 

      18              In addition, you twice asked for documents

 

      19    about Mr. Lee's travels to China.  We objected both

 

      20    times, and, again, the judge ruled in our favor both

 

      21    times.  That's why this question's out of bounds, and

 

      22    that's why most of the questions you've asked so far

 

      23    are out of bounds.  And that's the reason for Mr. Lee's

 

      24    -- for Mr. Sun's objections, although relevance is not

 

      25    generally a reason for telling a client not to answer, 


 

                                                               26

 

 

       1    if you persist in asking questions that are clearly not

 

       2    relevant of the judge's orders, our only conclusion can

 

       3    be you're trying to harass our client.

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  My only conclusion is that

 

       5    you're trying to harass us and run out the clock.  I'm

 

       6    asking background information -- background information

 

       7    here.  You just stated that most of my questions were

 

       8    irrelevant.  I asked two questions, as to whether he

 

       9    was associated with certain student organizations and

 

      10    if he traveled to China.  That question is clearly

 

      11    background information.  I'm entitled to it. 

 

      12              In addition, you're talking about a very

 

      13    limited ruling of a court order, which, frankly, is on

 

      14    appeal to a judge.  It was made by a magistrate at the

 

      15    time.  Those are on appeal.  And these matters are not

 

      16    even bearing with getting background information.  So

 

      17    if you want to persist and just obstruct the

 

      18    deposition, you may proceed.  You'll do it at your own

 

      19    risk, but I'm entitled to ask it.

 

      20              MR. SUN:  My point is simply that the limits

 

      21    of relevance in this case are quite clearly

 

      22    established, and we're going to proceed on that basis.

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, you can do what you want,

 

      24    but just don't run out the clock for me.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  No, Larry, let me make this


 

                                                               27

 

 

       1    suggestion, see if you agree with it, so that we can --

 

       2    we can deal with this issue.  If you would agree that

 

       3    we have a standing objection on relevance throughout

 

       4    your entire taking of depositions today, then I won't

 

       5    have to interrupt each time and say, "Objection,

 

       6    relevance."  That's one proposal I would make you to

 

       7    you now.

 

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  That's fine.  You can have

 

       9    that.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  You stipulate on the record that

 

      11    we having a standing objection on relevance

 

      12    throughout -- for every question posed in the

 

      13    deposition.  Okay?  Just hear me out.  And then unless

 

      14    I direct my client not to answer, I will -- you know,

 

      15    basically, Dr. Lee, you'll answer the question.  All 

 

      16    right?

 

      17              THE WITNESS:  Um-hmm.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  And -- but the stipulation's got to

 

      19    be understanding proviso that I'm not waiving any

 

      20    relevance objections to any questions and that I -- I'm

 

      21    going to -- in doing so, that when I direct Dr. Lee not

 

      22    to answer, it's going to be because we determine at

 

      23    some point that the questioning has really gone beyond

 

      24    the scope to a level where we believe, as previously

 

      25    stated, we will direct Dr. Lee not to answer. 


 

                                                               28

 

 

       1              This proposal is designed, Mr. Klayman, to

 

       2    avoid you being concerned about running out the clock, 

 

       3    avoid speeches by counsel, and allow you to proceed

 

       4    with the deposition, hopefully in a more orderly way. 

 

       5    I make that proposal to you in the spirit of trying to

 

       6    move this along.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  You always have that.  The

 

       8    Federal Rules of Civil Procedure provides that, so I

 

       9    don't have to stipulate to it.  But I'll even stipulate

 

      10    to it, because it is the law. 

 

      11              In answer to Counsel's question about what

 

      12    the magistrate ruled, he ruled that a request asking

 

      13    for all documents concerning the PRC was overly broad. 

 

      14    Okay?  He did not say we could not get into these

 

      15    areas, and these areas are clearly relevant.  You are

 

      16    claiming that our client singled your client out

 

      17    because he is ethnic Chinese.  We're saying that is not

 

      18    the case; that there was a valid basis to investigate

 

      19    him.  And, obviously, one of the bases the people used

 

      20    to investigate individuals who are being accused of

 

      21    breaches of national security are contacts with foreign

 

      22    powers that are adverse to the United States,  and that

 

      23    was a legitimate reason to investigate him. 

 

      24              So it's quite relevant.  And there is no

 

      25    order saying we cannot get into it.  So do you this at


 

                                                               29

 

 

       1    your own risk.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Well, Mr. Klayman, as I understand

 

       3    the judge's rulings and the -- and the motions that

 

       4    were litigated -- and, one, I know of no stay in

 

       5    effect, so believe the judge's order is still in effect

 

       6    unless overruled by a reviewing court -- is that it's

 

       7    really focused on what Mr. Trulock knew, what Dr. Lee

 

       8    knew, what statements were made that might have

 

       9    allegedly defamed or libeled Mr. Trulock.  And I

 

      10    believe that's the proper focus of your examination. 

 

      11    It isn't what other people might have known or what

 

      12    other things might have occurred outside the rubric of

 

      13    Dr. Lee's knowledge or Mr. Trulock's knowledge. 

 

      14              So that's where I believe the proper focus

 

      15    is.  Again, to save time, we've agreed that we'll have

 

      16    a standing objection on relevance, then I will only

 

      17    speak up when necessary to invoke privilege objections

 

      18    or to direct Dr. Lee not to answer because I believe

 

      19    the scope of the question has gone beyond the pale. 

 

      20    And this way, we can move along faster, and I don't

 

      21    have to speak up as much and disrupt your flow.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Why -- why do you have to

 

      23    repeat that?  By repeating, again, you're running out

 

      24    the clock.  That's what you're doing.  It's quite clear

 

      25    what your strategy is here.  So I just say, let it


 

                                                               30

 

 

       1    be, let the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure govern. 

 

       2    If you have a problem with a question, if I've gone

 

       3    beyond the scope, you have an opportunity to move to

 

       4    strike.  And he's got -- he, in effect, has total

 

       5    immunity now as long as he tells the truth.  He's

 

       6    already been convicted of a crime.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Well, do you accept my proposal or

 

       8    not, Mr. Klayman?

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  I accept your proposal, because

 

      10    it's the Rules of Civil Procedure, so stop.  Let me

 

      11    answer my -- let me ask my questions.  If you have a

 

      12    problem with the responses, then you can move to

 

      13    strike, but these are relevant questions.

 

      14              MR. SUN:  I'm agreeing to my proposal, and

 

      15    we'll proceed accordingly.

 

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  These questions are also

 

      17    relevant as to state of mind, intent, and -- and issues

 

      18    involving malice, if, indeed, that becomes an issue in

 

      19    the case.  The Court has not made any rulings, as of

 

      20    yet, as to whether my client is a public figure or

 

      21    not.  And consequently these questions need to be

 

      22    asked.  And even if it made a ruling, that would be

 

      23    subject to review by a judge.

 

      24         Q.   Now, you graduated in 1969.  What did you do

 

      25    at that time, Mr. Lee?


 

                                                               31

 

 

       1         A.   I went to look for job.

 

       2         Q.   And where did you look for a job?

 

       3         A.   I went to look for job, and I spent about --

 

       4    I don't know.  I don't remember -- maybe four or five

 

       5    month to look at a job.

 

       6         Q.   Where did you get a job?  Did you get a job?

 

       7         A.   I get a job in Columbia University, yes.

 

       8         Q.   And what job was that?

 

       9         A.   It's a research work relate to meteorology

 

      10    and the weather.

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Meteorology.

 

      12         A.   Meteorology, weather prediction.

 

      13         Q.   Did you have an immediate supervisor in that

 

      14    job?

 

      15         A.   I have.

 

      16         Q.   What's his name?  What was his name?

 

      17         A.   I don't remember his name.

 

      18         Q.   And how long did you stay at Columbia

 

      19    University?

 

      20         A.   Roughly, about one year.

 

      21         Q.   During the period that you were at Columbia

 

      22    University, did you ever have any contact with anyone

 

      23    with ties to the People's Republic of China?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Same objection.  I'm going to

 

      25    direct him not to answer the question.  It's vague and


 

                                                               32

 

 

       1    ambiguous, too.  What do you mean by "ties"?

 

       2         Q.   You want to use another word?  Do you suggest

 

       3    a word? 

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Why don't you ask a better

 

       5    question.

 

       6         Q.   Did you have contact with anyone who, in any

 

       7    way, had anything to do with the People's Republic of

 

       8    China?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  That's vague and ambiguous.  Calls

 

      10    for speculation.

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are you instructing him not to

 

      12    answer?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  You can answer that question.

 

      14         A.   No.

 

      15         Q.   During the time, up to the point that you

 

      16    left Columbia University, had you ever traveled to the

 

      17    People's Republic of China?

 

      18         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      19         Q.   Up to the point in time that you left

 

      20    Columbia University -- you said you stayed a year --

 

      21    had you ever traveled to the People's Republic of

 

      22    China?

 

      23         A.   Do you mean -- do you mean that year or --

 

      24         Q.   Anytime in your life up to that point.

 

      25         A.   Up to --


 

                                                               33

 

 

       1         Q.   The point you left Columbia University.

 

       2         A.   Did I ever travel to China?  Yeah?

 

       3         Q.   Yes.

 

       4         A.   No.

 

       5         Q.   And what year did you leave Columbia

 

       6    University?

 

       7         A.   I don't remember exactly what year. 

 

       8    Somewhere around 1971 or '72.

 

       9         Q.   Okay.  Up to 1971, did you ever have any

 

      10    friends from the People's Republic of China?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  What do you me "from"?  You mean

 

      12    that they were born there?

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Who came from --

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Immigrated there?

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- who came from.  Came from,

 

      16    immigrated, whatever.  Who -- who were born in the

 

      17    People's Republic of China.

 

      18         Q.   You can answer the question.

 

      19         A.   I don't understand your question.

 

      20         Q.   No disrespect, but are -- is English not a

 

      21    language that you understand?

 

      22         A.   Please let me -- do you want me to answer

 

      23    your --

 

      24         Q.   I mean, I want to understand if it's my -- if

 

      25    it's the English language or it's me.  Is there a


 

                                                               34

 

 

       1    problem with the way I'm phrasing it?

 

       2         A.   No, the definition of your question.  When

 

       3    you say do I know anybody from People Republic of

 

       4    China -- is that what you mean?

 

       5         Q.   Well, this question was, up to 1971, did you

 

       6    ever have any friends who came from or immigrated from

 

       7    the People's Republic of China?

 

       8         A.   No.

 

       9         Q.   Okay.  And up to 1971, you never traveled to

 

      10    the People's Republic of China?  Just to clear that up.

 

      11         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      12         Q.   Up to, and including, 1971, you never

 

      13    traveled to the People's Republic of China?

 

      14         A.   That's correct.

 

      15         Q.   Okay.  What did you do after you left

 

      16    Columbia University in 1971?

 

      17         A.   I don't know is it 1971.  I think it's

 

      18    between 1971 or 1972.  I don't remember.  But I went to

 

      19    work in a company in San Diego.

 

      20         Q.   And what company was that?

 

      21         A.   I don't remember the name.

 

      22         Q.   And what type of work did you do?

 

      23         A.   It's a research work.

 

      24         Q.   What kind of research did you do?

 

      25         A.   Again, it's related to weather prediction and


 

                                                               35

 

 

       1    air pollution.

 

       2         Q.   Did you study courses on weather prediction

 

       3    when you were in university in Taiwan and at Texas

 

       4    A & M?

 

       5         A.    I was major in fluid mechanical, and fluid

 

       6    mechanical has big application for weather prediction.

 

       7         Q.   How long did you stay in that job in San

 

       8    Diego?

 

       9         A.   I don't remember exactly how long.

 

      10         Q.   Well, roughly speaking.

 

      11         A.   Roughly, about one year.

 

      12         Q.   Why did you leave?  Why did you leave?

 

      13         A.   The budget was cut, and several people was -- 

 

      14    got laid off, include me.

 

      15         Q.   Was your work considered not to be up to

 

      16    standard?

 

      17         A.   I don't understand your question.

 

      18         Q.   You were cut because they didn't like your

 

      19    work?

 

      20         A.   I don't believe so.

 

      21         Q.   And what did you do after you left this

 

      22    company?

 

      23         A.   I work at a weather company in Pasadena.

 

      24         Q.   A razor company?

 

      25         A.   No, no, it's a weather.


 

                                                               36

 

 

       1         Q.   Weather?

 

       2         A.   Relating to -- to weather.

 

       3         Q.   Okay.  Moved to Pasadena, California, worked

 

       4    for a weather company?

 

       5         A.   It's a company relate to weather.

 

       6         Q.   And how long -- okay.  And what was your job

 

       7    there?

 

       8         A.   It has something to do with the air pollution.

 

       9         Q.   And, specifically, what did you do concerning

 

      10    air pollution?

 

      11         A.   It's relate to the smog -- smog S-M-O-G --

 

      12    smog concentration above Los Angeles basin.

 

      13         Q.   And how long did you stay in this job?

 

      14         A.   It's approximately more than one year.

 

      15         Q.   Why did you leave?

 

      16         A.   Because I went to work for a company located

 

      17    in Idaho.  I had a better job.

 

      18         Q.   And what year was that?

 

      19         A.   I don't remember exactly what year.

 

      20         Q.   Just give it to me generally.  I don't -- we

 

      21    don't need exact precision.  What year was that,

 

      22    roughly speaking?

 

      23         A.   It's roughly, about 1974 or '75.  I don't

 

      24    remember.

 

      25         Q.   And what was your job position in this new


 

                                                               37

 

 

       1    enterprise in Idaho?

 

       2         A.   I'm a research scientist.

 

       3         Q.   What were you researching?

 

       4         A.   It's in fluid mechanic.

 

       5         Q.   Full mechanics?

 

       6         A.   Yeah, F-L-U-I-D.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Fluid.

 

       8         Q.   Fluid mechanics.  And what was the name of

 

       9    this company?

 

      10         A.   I don't remember.

 

      11         Q.   Who was your supervisor at the company, your

 

      12    immediate supervisor?

 

      13         A.   I don't remember.

 

      14         Q.   How long did you stay at this company?

 

      15         A.   Roughly, about three or four years.

 

      16         Q.   When did you leave the company, roughly

 

      17    speaking?  What year?

 

      18         A.   Must be somewhere around 1978.

 

      19         Q.   1978?

 

      20         A.   It's probably like in 1977 or 1978.  I don't

 

      21    remember.  During that period.

 

      22         Q.   Up to that time period, did you get married?

 

      23         A.   Yes.

 

      24         Q.   When were you married?

 

      25         A.   1970.


 

                                                               38

 

 

       1         Q.   1970.  And who did you marry in 1970?

 

       2         A.   My wife.

 

       3         Q.   When did you first meet your wife?  I take it

 

       4    her name's Sylvia?

 

       5         A.   That's correct.

 

       6         Q.   When did you first meet your wife?

 

       7         A.   Toward the end of 1969.

 

       8         Q.   Where did you meet her?

 

       9         A.   Los Angeles.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  Your wife was born in the People's

 

      11    Republic of China, correct?

 

      12         A.   She was born in Republic of China, not People

 

      13    Republic of China.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.  At that time, it was called the

 

      15    Republic of China, is that what you're saying?

 

      16         A.   That's correct.

 

      17         Q.   Okay.  It later, when Mao Tse-tung took over,

 

      18    it became the People's Republic of China, correct?

 

      19         A.   That's correct.

 

      20         Q.   She was born in mainland China, what's called

 

      21    mainland China?

 

      22         A.   That's correct.

 

      23         Q.   Okay.  Not Taiwan?

 

      24         A.   But she was born in Republic of China, not

 

      25    People Republic of China.


 

                                                               39

 

 

       1         Q.   Why is that distinction important?

 

       2         A.   It's very important.  People -- People

 

       3    Republic of China is communist.  Republic of China is

 

       4    not communist.

 

       5         Q.   Okay.  And when did she come to the United

 

       6    States?

 

       7         A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

 

       8         Q.   You never asked her that?

 

       9         A.   I never asked -- well, I --

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Let me object at this point.  To

 

      11    the extent that some questions may invade or implicate

 

      12    spousal marital communications privilege, I may

 

      13    object.  The questions of this nature, I don't have a

 

      14    problem with, Mr. Klayman.  But I just want to indicate

 

      15    to you that there are areas where that privilege might

 

      16    come into play. 

 

      17              But you can answer the question, Dr. Lee.

 

      18         A.   Can you repeat your question, please?

 

      19         Q.   Roughly speaking, when did your wife Sylvia

 

      20    come to the United States?

 

      21         A.   To my best recollection, I don't know.

 

      22         Q.   Generally speaking?

 

      23         A.   I don't know.

 

      24         Q.   How long have you been married to her?

 

      25         A.   I marry her in 1970.


 

                                                               40

 

 

       1         Q.   So you've been married to her 31 years,

 

       2    correct?

 

       3         A.   That's about right.

 

       4         Q.   In 31 years, you never asked her, and she

 

       5    never told you, when she came to the United States?

 

       6         A.   To my best memory, I don't know.

 

       7         Q.   But you know generally?

 

       8         A.   What do you mean, "generally"?

 

       9         Q.   In fact, she came -- she came to the United

 

      10    States during a period when that country that she was

 

      11    born in was under communist rule, correct?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection, that assumes facts not

 

      13    in evidence, and I think you're missing a few things,

 

      14    but --

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  That's a leading question which

 

      16    I'm entitled to ask.  I'm trying to help him because

 

      17    his memory is gone inexplicably blank on this question.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Well, that's what you call it. 

 

      19    You've misstated the facts, and that's what I'm

 

      20    suggesting.

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  The man is a nuclear scientist. 

 

      22    He's a very sharp individual.  He knows what I'm

 

      23    saying.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  You've assumed that Mrs. Lee came

 

      25    to the United States directly from mainland China, at


 

                                                               41

 

 

       1    least that's what I thought your question presumed.

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Please don't -- Please don't

 

       3    give --

 

       4              MR. SUN:  There is no evidence to support

 

       5    that.

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- don't give speaking

 

       7    objections to coach your witness, please.  We know the

 

       8    game, Brian.  We know the game.

 

       9              MR. SUN:  If you understand the question, you

 

      10    can answer it.

 

      11         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      12         Q.   Now that your counsel has told you the

 

      13    answer, maybe you can answer it.  Did your wife come to

 

      14    the United States through another country?  Did she

 

      15    live in another country, before she came to the United

 

      16    States, other than mainland China?

 

      17         A.   She came to United States from Taiwan.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.  See, that's an example. 

 

      19    This is improper litigation conduct.

 

      20              MR. SUN:  I was trying to help you out, Mr.

 

      21    Klayman.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't want to be helped out. 

 

      23    Okay?  Your help, I don't need.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  I'll take that into consideration.

 

      25         Q.   When did she leave mainland China to go to


 

                                                               42

 

 

       1    Taiwan?

 

       2         A.   This is third time I tell you, to my best

 

       3    memory, I don't know.

 

       4         Q.   So when did she come from Taiwan to the

 

       5    United States?

 

       6         A.   Again, as far as I can recall, I don't know.

 

       7         Q.   Generally, you don't know?

 

       8         A.   I don't know.

 

       9         Q.   Mr. Lee, you've taken polygraphs before,

 

      10    haven't you?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance. 

 

      12         Q.   Have you taken polygraphs?

 

      13         A.   Yes.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.  And you failed some of them, haven't

 

      15    you.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.  Direct him

 

      17    not to answer.  What's that got to do with the subject

 

      18    matter of this lawsuit, Mr. Klayman?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  It has to do with truthfulness

 

      20    and credibility.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  You know, I'm going to direct him

 

      22    not to answer.

 

      23         Q.   When you testified before that you didn't

 

      24    know anyone associated in any way with the People's

 

      25    Republic of China, you answered based upon the fact


 

                                                               43

 

 

       1    that your wife had come from Taiwan, that you didn't

 

       2    include her in that group of coming from the People's

 

       3    Republic of China?

 

       4         A.   I don't --

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Objection, vague and ambiguous,

 

       6    argumentative.  Go ahead.

 

       7         A.   I don't understand your question.  Can you

 

       8    repeat again?

 

       9         Q.   I asked you a question that, up to 1971, did

 

      10    you know anyone who was associated in any way with the

 

      11    People's Republic of China, and you said no.  Do you

 

      12    remember that?

 

      13         A.   Yes.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.  And the reason you didn't include your

 

      15    wife in that category is because you're claiming she

 

      16    came from Taiwan --

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative.

 

      18         Q.   -- is that correct?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Vague and ambiguous.

 

      20         A.   Let me repeat.  Listen carefully.  She was

 

      21    born in China, which is called Republic of China, not

 

      22    People Republic of China when she was born.  And she

 

      23    move with her family to Taiwan.  I don't know when. 

 

      24    And it's also under Peo- -- under Republic of China,

 

      25    not under People Republic of China.  And she move from


 

                                                               44

 

 

       1    Taiwan to United States also under Republic of China,

 

       2    not People Republic of China.  She has nothing to do

 

       3    with People Republic of China.  Is that clear?

 

       4         Q.   Well, you don't remember the dates when she

 

       5    left.  So as far as she know, she may have left the

 

       6    People's Republic of China, correct?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative.

 

       8         Q.   So you didn't tell the truth, did you, when

 

       9    you testified to that?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection, instruct the witness not

 

      11    to answer.

 

      12              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  No.

 

      14         Q.   What, if anything, did you do after the

 

      15    company -- when did you leave the company in Pasadena? 

 

      16    Excuse me, in Idaho?  Was that 1978, just to get back

 

      17    into the frame of reference?

 

      18         A.   I don't remember, but it must be 1978 or

 

      19    '77.  I don't remember.

 

      20         Q.   And what did you do in -- in that time

 

      21    period?  Did you get another job?

 

      22         A.   Yes.  I got a job in Argonne National

 

      23    Laboratory in Chicago.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  It's A-R-G-O-N-N-E, I think.

 

      25         Q.   And what kind of job was that?


 

                                                               45

 

 

       1         A.   It's a fluid mechanic again.

 

       2         Q.   Fluid mechanical?

 

       3         A.   That's correct.

 

       4         Q.   And how long did you stay in this job?

 

       5         A.   Roughly, one year.

 

       6         Q.   And why did you leave?

 

       7         A.   I got a better offer in Los Alamos.

 

       8         Q.   Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago, is

 

       9    that a nuclear laboratory?

 

      10         A.   They do unclassify research work.

 

      11         Q.   Dealing with nuclear matters?

 

      12         A.   They may have some, but -- most of them are

 

      13    nonnuclear.

 

      14         Q.   Did you work on matters involving nuclear

 

      15    issues?

 

      16         A.   I was working on the computer code, which is

 

      17    a fluid mechanic.

 

      18         Q.   And does that deal with nuclear?

 

      19         A.   It is a two-phase-flow fluid mechanic code.

 

      20         Q.   Does it deal with nuclear?

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection, vague and ambiguous.  Do

 

      22    you understand what the term "nuclear" means?

 

      23         Q.   Is there anything that relates in any way to

 

      24    nuclear issues?  Just answer the question.

 

      25         A.   No.


 

                                                               46

 

 

       1         Q.   Why are you finding difficulty answering my

 

       2    questions?  Is it my method of speaking?  I'm trying to

 

       3    figure it out so we can move this along.

 

       4              MR. SUN:  You don't have to respond to that

 

       5    question.  Unless you --

 

       6         Q.   Are you having a problem with the way I'm

 

       7    phrasing things?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  You can answer that.

 

       9         A.   I have a problem with your -- the definition,

 

      10    the vocabulary definition, between you and me, because

 

      11    the way I'm thinking is scientifical definition, and I

 

      12    --

 

      13         Q.   You don't understand the word "nuclear"?

 

      14         A.   I told you, I work on two-phase fluid code,

 

      15    computer code, two-phase fluid.  It is a mechan- --

 

      16    fluid mechanic, and we use that for fluid aspect.

 

      17         Q.   And I asked you whether that had anything to

 

      18    do with nuclear matters.  So is the answer yes?

 

      19         A.   The answer -- the question is, What do you

 

      20    mean nuclear with fluid mechanics?  Do you know that --

 

      21    do you know the relation between nuclear and fluid

 

      22    mechanic?   What -- what do you mean?

 

      23         Q.   Did that particular lab, that Aragonne lab,

 

      24    deal with nuclear matters among other matters?

 

      25         A.   They also deal with many, many nonnuclear


 

                                                               47

 

 

       1    matter, too, Aragonne.

 

       2         Q.   But I asked you about nuclear matters.

 

       3         A.   I told you, I work on two-phase fluid code,

 

       4    which is a fluid mechanic.  And fluid mechanic may have

 

       5    -- can be used for nuclear, maybe not, but I don't know

 

       6    your implication.  I don't know your definition.

 

       7         Q.   I just simply asked, Did the Argonne National

 

       8    Labs involve itself in some nuclear issues?

 

       9         A.   They may.  They may.

 

      10         Q.   Did they, or did they not?

 

      11         A.   They may.  I say they may.

 

      12         Q.   Did they, or did they not?  "May" means they

 

      13    could have.  Did they, or did they not, when you worked

 

      14    there?

 

      15         A.   I know they have some people work on reactor

 

      16    safety.  Reactor safety.

 

      17         Q.   So the answer's yes.

 

      18         A.   Well, reactor safety.  Well, I told you

 

      19    already.

 

      20         Q.   So the answer's yes.

 

      21         A.   I don't know your definition.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  The answer is yes to what?

 

      23         A.   I don't know your definition.

 

      24         Q.   Is a reactor nuclear?

 

      25         A.   Reactor can be nuclear; can be nonnuclear.


 

                                                               48

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  That is very instructive in

 

       2    terms of how the witness is answering questions, and

 

       3    I'm not going belabor it.  We'll be instructive when we

 

       4    ask for attorney's fees and costs.

 

       5         Q.   Now, how did you get your job when you left

 

       6    Argonne National Lab in Chicago?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Mr. Klayman, it's Argonne.

 

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  Argonne.

 

       9         Q.   Did you then get a job at Los Alamos in New

 

      10    Mexico?

 

      11         A.   That's correct.

 

      12         Q.   Okay.  And how did you go about getting that

 

      13    job?

 

      14         A.   What do you mean?

 

      15         Q.   How did you get the job?  Did you apply for

 

      16    the job?

 

      17         A.   I applied, yes.

 

      18         Q.   Did you have someone that you knew at Los

 

      19    Alamos that recommended you for the job?

 

      20         A.   No, I sent an application form.  I sent my

 

      21    resume.  That's all.

 

      22         Q.   When you worked at Argonne Nuclear Labs, did

 

      23    you have a security clearance?

 

      24         A.   I don't remember.

 

      25         Q.   When did you get your job at Los Alamos?


 

                                                               49

 

 

       1         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

       2         Q.   When did you get your job at Los Alamos?  Was

 

       3    that a difficult question?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Is your question was it difficult,

 

       5    or is your question still when did he get the job?

 

       6         Q.   When did you get your job? 

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm just trying to figure

 

       8    out -- maybe you can help -- maybe you can help me, Mr.

 

       9    Sun.  Does he not speak English?  Is this the problem?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Well, I think he speaks English. 

 

      11    We haven't asked for an interpreter.  If you think you

 

      12    want to adjourn and get one, it's up to you.  We --

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, then, I'm trying to

 

      14    figure out why he can't answer a simple question.

 

      15              MR. SUN:  That's your perspective.  Maybe

 

      16    your questions aren't clear or maybe you're asking two

 

      17    questions at once.

 

      18         Q.   Okay.  Let me repeat it again.  When did you

 

      19    get a job at Los Alamos?  Is that difficult to

 

      20    understand, Mr. Lee?

 

      21         A.   Toward the end of 1978.

 

      22         Q.   And what job did you get?

 

      23              MR. COPPOLINO:  Hold on for a second, Mr.

 

      24    Klayman.  I would just observe that the witness is not

 

      25    going to be able to disclose classified details about


 

                                                               50

 

 

       1    his work, but he can certainly describe his duties in a

 

       2    nonclassified manner.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Do you understand what Mr.

 

       4    Coppolino just said?

 

       5              THE WITNESS:  No.  Can you state again?

 

       6              MR. COPPOLINO:  I just stated that the

 

       7    witness can describe his duties at Los Alamos in a

 

       8    nonclassified manner, but is not to divulge the

 

       9    classified nature of any of his work in responding to

 

      10    the question as to what your duties are.

 

      11              THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 

      12              MR. COPPOLINO:  Okay.

 

      13         Q.   What job did you get in 1978?

 

      14         A.   I get a research work on fluid mechanic.

 

      15         Q.   And, generally speaking, what kind of

 

      16    research work?

 

      17         A.   I'm working on the computer code which deal

 

      18    with fluid mechanic.

 

      19         Q.   And what is the computer code used for?

 

      20              MR. COPPOLINO:  Objection.  Hold on.  I would

 

      21    just state that in answering the question, the witness

 

      22    cannot disclose the application of computer codes to

 

      23    nuclear weapons -- nuclear weapons design manufacture. 

 

      24    Thank you.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, you're not saying that


 

                                                               51

 

 

       1    the issue of whether or not computer codes are used

 

       2    with relation to nuclear weapons is classified, are

 

       3    you?

 

       4              MR. COPPOLINO:  No, that's not classified.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  All right.  That's all I'm

 

       6    looking to get here.

 

       7              MR. COPPOLINO:  Well, I was just -- I was

 

       8    really directing my comment to him and not to you.

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yeah, I'm not looking to get

 

      10    the computer codes. 

 

      11              MR. COPPOLINO:  Yeah, I just wanted to tell

 

      12    him that --

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Others already have.

 

      14              MR. COPPOLINO:  -- in describing his research

 

      15    with respect to computer codes, he cannot describe

 

      16    their application to nuclear weapons design. 

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Do you understand?

 

      18              THE WITNESS:  Say again.  I don't quite

 

      19    understand. 

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Can we take a short break, Mr.

 

      21    Klayman?  I need to consult with the Government real

 

      22    quickly about this.

 

      23              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off the

 

      24    record.  The time is 10:12 a.m. 

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let me put this question on


 

                                                               52

 

 

       1    the record so you can consult over this.

 

       2         Q.   Do the computer codes have applicability to

 

       3    nuclear weapons?  That's my pending questions. 

 

       4              (Recess taken.)

 

       5              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on the record. 

 

       6    The time is 10:23.  Thank you.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  I had a question pending, and

 

       8    the Government was going to give its landmark ruling.

 

       9              MR. COPPOLINO:  The question was do computer

 

      10    codes have application to nuclear weapons.  No

 

      11    objection to that question as long as there's no

 

      12    reference to specific codes.

 

      13              MR. SUN:  I think that's a yes-or-no answer.

 

      14         Q.   Please answer.

 

      15         A.   I -- I -- I don't understand the question.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Could you say it again or --

 

      17         Q.   Do computer codes have applicability to

 

      18    nuclear weapons?

 

      19         A.   You mean the code I'm working on?

 

      20         Q.   Yes, when you -- when you worked for Los

 

      21    Alamos beginning in 1978.

 

      22         A.   In 1978, that code has no application to

 

      23    nuclear weapon.  Is that okay?  I don't know I can

 

      24    answer?

 

      25         Q.   So the codes that you first started working


 

                                                               53

 

 

       1    on at Los Alamos in 1978 did not have applicability to

 

       2    nuclear weapons?

 

       3         A.   To my best knowledge, did not use them for

 

       4    nuclear weapon application.  Is that okay?

 

       5         Q.   What were they used for?

 

       6         A.   It's a reactor safety.

 

       7         Q.   Nuclear reactor safety?

 

       8         A.   Yes.

 

       9         Q.   During the time that you worked at Los

 

      10    Alamos, what, in addition to these codes for reactor

 

      11    safety, have you worked on, generally speaking?

 

      12              MR. COPPOLINO:  Again, you understand not to

 

      13    mention any code names.  Do you understand that?

 

      14              THE WITNESS:  I cannot mention.

 

      15              MR. COPPOLINO:  You cannot mention code

 

      16    names.  Do you understand that?

 

      17              THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 

      18              MR. COPPOLINO:  Okay.  Proceed.

 

      19              MR. SUN:  I'm sorry, could you repeat the

 

      20    question?

 

      21         A.   Yeah, I'm sorry.

 

      22         Q.   Tell me the different things that you've

 

      23    worked on, generally speaking, when you were at Los

 

      24    Alamos.

 

      25         A.   You mean for twenty years?


 

                                                               54

 

 

       1         Q.   Yes.

 

       2         A.   For the last twenty years?

 

       3         Q.   Yes, yes.

 

       4         A.   Generally speaking, I work on computer code

 

       5    and its relate to fluid mechanic for last twenty years.

 

       6         Q.   And you also worked on codes, correct?

 

       7         A.   Computer code.

 

       8         Q.   Computer codes?

 

       9         A.   Yes.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  And later on, during your career at

 

      11    Los Alamos, those computer codes did relate to nuclear

 

      12    weapons, correct?

 

      13         A.   That's correct.

 

      14         Q.   And when did that first occur?

 

      15         A.   I don't remember exactly, but it must be

 

      16    around 1981 or '8- -- '80 or '81, somewhere around

 

      17    there.

 

      18         Q.   During the time period -- when did you leave

 

      19    Los Alamos?  When were you fired from Los Alamos?

 

      20         A.   March 8, 1999.

 

      21         Q.   Why were you fired?

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Objection.  You can answer.  Unless

 

      23    I direct you not to answer, you can answer the

 

      24    question.

 

      25         A.   Bill Richardson fire me.


 

                                                               55

 

 

       1         Q.   Why did he fire you?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection, calls for speculation.

 

       3         A.   You have to ask him.  I don't know why.

 

       4         Q.   Yes, to the best of your knowledge, why were

 

       5    you fired?

 

       6         A.   I say, you have to ask Bill Richardson.  I

 

       7    don't know why he fired me.

 

       8         Q.   You have no idea?

 

       9         A.   I have no idea.

 

      10         Q.   Did it have anything to do with allegations

 

      11    that you had breached national security?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Same objection.

 

      13         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

      14         Q.   You have no clue?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Again, Mr. Klayman, no clue as to

 

      16    why Bill Richardson fired him?  Is that your question?

 

      17         Q.   Yes.  You have no clue as to why you were

 

      18    filed by Secretary of Energy Bill Richardson?

 

      19         A.   Again, to my best knowledge, I don't know

 

      20    why -- why he fire me.  I don't know.

 

      21         Q.   Now, up to the point you were fired, you did

 

      22    have conversations with people at Los Alamos that were

 

      23    your supervisors, did you not?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection as to time frame.  We're

 

      25    talking about 1978 to the present?


 

                                                               56

 

 

       1         Q.   Generally.

 

       2         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

       3         Q.   You had supervisors at Los Alamos over the

 

       4    twenty years that you were there, correct?

 

       5         A.   That's correct.

 

       6         Q.   Who were your supervisors?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Beginning in '78?

 

       8         Q.   Beginning in '78.

 

       9         A.   I can only do the best I can recall or I can

 

      10    remember.  Some of them I don't remember.  In the early

 

      11    time, it's Jim Jackson; and later, this guy called

 

      12    Charlie Hamilton, H-A-M-I-L-T-O-N, Hamilton.  I'm try

 

      13    to do the best I can remember.  There was a guy call

 

      14    Steve White.

 

      15         Q.   Steve White?

 

      16         A.   Yeah.  There was a guy call Paul Whalen,

 

      17    P-A-U-L, Paul, Whalen, W-H-A-L-E-N.  Some of them, I

 

      18    don't remember.  But those I can remember.

 

      19         Q.   When you were fired, what year was that?

 

      20         A.   March 8, 1999.

 

      21         Q.   Okay.  And who was your supervisor then?

 

      22         A.   His name is Dan Butler, D-A-N, B-U-L-T-E-R

 

      23    (sic).

 

      24         Q.   And what was Mr. Butler's job title?

 

      25         A.   To my best knowledge, he may be the acting T


 

                                                               57

 

 

       1    Division leader.  "T," as theoretical.

 

       2         Q.   Right.  He told you why you were fired,

 

       3    didn't he?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Foundation.

 

       5         A.   I remember he told me -- he show me a list,

 

       6    but I don't remember what the detail.

 

       7         Q.   What kind of list?

 

       8         A.   It's a piece paper, said, you know, you

 

       9    violated security, you -- something like that. 

 

      10    Security.  You -- again, to my best memory.  I don't

 

      11    remember the detail.

 

      12         Q.   Now, this was a very difficult period in your

 

      13    life, wasn't it, Dr. Lee?

 

      14         A.   It's very difficult, yes.

 

      15         Q.   And it wasn't very long ago, was it?

 

      16         A.   It's 1999, March 8th, I told you.

 

      17         Q.   Okay.  Only about two-and-a-half-years ago?

 

      18         A.   Um-hmm.

 

      19              MR. SUN:  You should say -- you should say

 

      20    yes or no.  The court reporter can't record you?

 

      21              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Yes.

 

      22         Q.   Consequently, this whole period is very vivid

 

      23    in your memory, is it not?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative.

 

      25         A.   What do you mean -- say again, your question.


 

                                                               58

 

 

       1         Q.   You remember very well this period, because

 

       2    it was a difficult period, correct?

 

       3         A.   I told you, I was fired March 8, 1999, yes.

 

       4         Q.   Okay.  And you were fired, based upon what

 

       5    Mr. Butler showed you, for national security

 

       6    violations?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

       8         Q.   Correct?

 

       9         A.   No.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  So what were you told were the reasons

 

      11    for your firing?

 

      12         A.   It is not national security.  It's the

 

      13    security rule at the lab.  It's a security rule at the

 

      14    lab, but not national security, no.

 

      15         Q.   So the lab has -- Los Alamos Labs has nothing

 

      16    to do with national security?

 

      17              MR. SUN:  That's --

 

      18         A.   No, no, my question --

 

      19         Q.   That's your opinion?

 

      20         A.   No, my question is -- my answer is this:  I

 

      21    was fire.  Dan Butler give me a list -- a piece of

 

      22    paper, had some list, and some of the list has

 

      23    something to do with a security infraction at the lab

 

      24    and has nothing to do with the national security at

 

      25    all.


 

                                                               59

 

 

       1         Q.   So you're saying that violating security

 

       2    rules at the lab does not have anything to do with

 

       3    national security?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Objection, misstates his

 

       5    testimony.  It's argumentative.

 

       6         Q.   Please answer.

 

       7              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Yeah.  If you understand his

 

       9    question, sure.

 

      10         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      11         Q.   What you're saying is, is that the security

 

      12    rules at Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratories have nothing

 

      13    to do U.S. national security?

 

      14              MR. SUN:  That's not what he said.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Please let him answer the

 

      16    question, and don't interrupt.

 

      17              MR. SUN:  I'll interrupt when I see fit.

 

      18         A.   I don't know whether the security --

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  That kind of -- on the record. 

 

      20    That kind of attitude is a defiance of the court.  I

 

      21    hope that it doesn't continue.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Look, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to

 

      23    represent my client as I think it's appropriate. 

 

      24    You're badgering the witness at this point --

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not badgering anyone.


 

                                                               60

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  -- with argumentative questions.

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not badgering anything.  It

 

       3    was a simple question. 

 

       4              MR. SUN:  You are badgering the witness.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, we'll let it speak for

 

       6    itself.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  It will.

 

       8         Q.   Answer the question, please, sir.

 

       9         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  It's your view that the security

 

      11    regulations at Los Alamos Nuclear Labs have nothing to

 

      12    do with U.S. national security?  That's what you're

 

      13    saying, correct?

 

      14         A.   I didn't say that.  I did not say that.

 

      15         Q.   So the rules do have something to do with

 

      16    U.S. national security, correct?

 

      17         A.   I did not -- I did not say that, too.  I'm

 

      18    not agree with you on that either.  I don't know.

 

      19         Q.   These are -- these are --

 

      20         A.   I don't know.

 

      21         Q.   -- technical rules that aren't that

 

      22    important, that's what you're saying, correct?

 

      23         A.   I didn't say that either.

 

      24              MR. LEE:  Objection.  I'm going to direct him

 

      25    not to answer.  This is fruitless.  You can move on,


 

                                                               61

 

 

       1    Mr. Klayman.

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Certify it.

 

       4         Q.   So why were you fired, if these are just

 

       5    technical rules that don't have anything to do with

 

       6    national security?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection, calls for speculation, 

 

       8    asked and answered.

 

       9         Q.   Please answer.

 

      10         A.   Please repeat.

 

      11         Q.   What were you told was the reason for your

 

      12    firing?

 

      13         A.   They told me I violate some security

 

      14    infraction at the lab.  That's all I know.

 

      15         Q.   They told you specifically what rules you

 

      16    violated?

 

      17         A.   I remember one item.  Do you want to know

 

      18    that?

 

      19         Q.   Yes.

 

      20         A.   I remember one item.  They said I -- I wrote

 

      21    down a password, computer password, on piece of paper

 

      22    and lock in my drawer, in my office drawer, which

 

      23    was -- has a lock on the door, and the whole -- that's

 

      24    inside the X Division, and then the X Division has --

 

      25    it's behind a fence.  If you want to get in, you need a


 

                                                               62

 

 

       1    badge to get in.  And then there's another badge, the

 

       2    two badge you have to go in there.  And they told me I

 

       3    cannot write a password on piece of paper and lock --

 

       4    put in my office.  So that part, I remember.

 

       5         Q.   And what else were you told about the reasons

 

       6    for your firing?

 

       7         A.   I don't remember the other item.

 

       8         Q.   Surely you asked why you were being fired,

 

       9    correct?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      11         A.   I don't remember did I ask them why I get

 

      12    fired.  I did not ask them.

 

      13         Q.   You just accepted it?  The firing?

 

      14         A.   I didn't --

 

      15         Q.   No questions asked?

 

      16         A.   I don't remember did I ask them any question

 

      17    why I was fired.  I just don't remember today.

 

      18         Q.   After you were fired, you were indicted, were

 

      19    you not?  You were charged with criminal violations?

 

      20              You don't understand that question?

 

      21              After you were indicted, you were charged

 

      22    with criminal violations of law, correct?

 

      23              Excuse me, after you were fired from your

 

      24    job, the Government later indicted you for criminal

 

      25    violations of law, correct?


 

                                                               63

 

 

       1         A.   I was fired in March 8th, 1999, and I was

 

       2    indicted in December 10, 1999.

 

       3         Q.   And that was -- you were indicted for alleged

 

       4    criminal violations of law, correct?

 

       5         A.   I -- I don't understand.  I don't know how to

 

       6    answer that question.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  It can be answered yes or no.  I

 

       8    think Mr. Klayman is just simply asking you were you

 

       9    charged with violations of the law.

 

      10         Q.   Were you charged with violating the criminal

 

      11    law?

 

      12         A.   I have to say, according to the indictment,

 

      13    it looks like yes.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.

 

      15         A.   However, the indictment is argumentable -- I

 

      16    mean, the -- the indictment is wrong.  That's what I'm

 

      17    saying.  It's not correct.  So I don't know how to

 

      18    answer your question.

 

      19         Q.   And after you were indicted, you were thrown

 

      20    in prison, correct?

 

      21         A.   I was in jail for nine months, yes.

 

      22         Q.   You were in solitary confinement?

 

      23         A.   That's correct, yes.

 

      24         Q.   You complained that you were thrown in

 

      25    solitary confinement because you're Chinese; that you


 

                                                               64

 

 

       1    were being discriminated against, correct?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative as to

 

       3    form -- argumentative, vague as to form.

 

       4         Q.   Correct?

 

       5         A.   No.

 

       6         Q.   You have claimed, have you not, that you were

 

       7    indicted for violations of criminal law because you are

 

       8    ethnic Chinese, correct?

 

       9         A.   I don't understand your question.  Please 

 

      10    repeat.

 

      11         Q.   You have claimed that you were indicted for

 

      12    criminal violations of law because you are ethnic

 

      13    Chinese?

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      15              MR. MARSHALL:  It's also vague.  What do you

 

      16    mean by "you"?

 

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  Please, I -- I don't --

 

      18              MR. MARSHALL:  Personally?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- we don't need -- we don't

 

      20    need objections from two corners.  One corner.

 

      21              MR. MARSHALL:  This has been a big issue in

 

      22    the case.  You should be asking the question --

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 

 

      24    We don't need talking objections, either.  Can we go

 

      25    off the record?


 

                                                               65

 

 

       1              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Excuse me.  We are going

 

       2    off the record.  The time is 10:41.

 

       3                   (Discussion held off the Record.)

 

       4              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you.  We're back on

 

       5    the record.  The time is 10:43.

 

       6         Q.   The question was, is that you -- you have

 

       7    maintained that you were fired because you're ethnic

 

       8    Chinese?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Before you answer the question, 

 

      10    I'm going to make a statement for the record.  We went

 

      11    off the record at Mr. Klayman's request.  While we were

 

      12    off the record, we had a discussion about Mr. Klayman's

 

      13    complaint that my co-counsel was objecting, as well as

 

      14    I, to questions posed by Mr. Klayman in the

 

      15    deposition.  I have advised Mr. Klayman, off the record

 

      16    and on the record, that Mr. Marshall will speak up as

 

      17    appropriate.  I will endeavor to be the primary

 

      18    counsel, stating objections on behalf of the witness,

 

      19    so that we have proper flow here.  But while we were

 

      20    off the record Mr. Klayman made a number of insulting,

 

      21    derogatory comments to both me and my co-counsel.  I

 

      22    think that's wholly inappropriate.  I'm not even going

 

      23    to repeat the nature of those derogatory comments here

 

      24    on the record because there are a number of witnesses

 

      25    in this room that witnessed it. 


 

                                                               66

 

 

       1              I'm going to again request that Mr. Klayman

 

       2    conduct this deposition in a professional, civil manner

 

       3    and try to work out these issues in a professional and

 

       4    appropriate way.  Threats to counsel and insults do not

 

       5    work and are wholly unproductive in this process. 

 

       6              And -- and, again, I would again ask Mr.

 

       7    Klayman on the record, as I did off the record, to

 

       8    avoid this kind of behavior.

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  This question was a direct

 

      10    question which deals with direct issues in this lawsuit

 

      11    which are directly relevant.  When you interject

 

      12    speaking objections, and objections which you don't

 

      13    have to make under the Federal Rules of Civil

 

      14    Procedure, which are already preserved, which in fact I

 

      15    already stipulated to, when co-counsel comes in, who

 

      16    apparently doesn't have the same degree of experience

 

      17    that you have, and starts making these kinds of

 

      18    objections as well, at the same time that you're making

 

      19    them, obstructing an ability to get an answer,

 

      20    obviously you're going to get a response from counsel

 

      21    here. 

 

      22              I want this thing to proceed in an orderly

 

      23    fashion, and the very fact that you're interceding with

 

      24    this particular question shows a lack of good faith.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  And I disagree.  I also --


 

                                                               67

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  And am I upset?  Yes.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  I also demand that you apologize to

 

       3    Mr. Marshall for the commends you made to him off the

 

       4    record.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not going to apologize for

 

       6    any comments that I made.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Very well.  And just for the

 

       8    record, Mr. Marshall is an eminently qualified lawyer. 

 

       9    He's clerked for the U.S. Supreme Court.  I don't think

 

      10    that your comments would withstand any type of close

 

      11    scrutiny.  So you may proceed.  Before you proceed, I

 

      12    might say this:  Mr. Marshall was stating, before you

 

      13    went off the record, was that this case has already

 

      14    caused there to be litigation over the definition of

 

      15    what the term "you" means, Y-O-U, when you're asking

 

      16    questions of Dr. Lee. 

 

      17              And I believe that if Mr. Marshall wants to

 

      18    state for the record what those issues are, he's free

 

      19    to do so.  And --

 

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  I've asked that one counsel --

 

      21              MR. SUN:  -- and our objections relate to

 

      22    that dispute.

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- one counsel make one

 

      24    objection at a time.  And Mr. Marshall's objections had

 

      25    no relevancy, no bearing.  As a former Supreme Court


 

                                                               68

 

 

       1    clerk, he should know that the Federal Rules of Civil

 

       2    Procedure do not require him to make objections to

 

       3    obstruct a deposition.

 

       4              MR. SUN:  He's not doing that.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Not objections of that sort. 

 

       6    And the record will speak for itself.  No apologies are

 

       7    warranted.

 

       8         Q.   Mr. Lee, you have maintained that you were

 

       9    fired because you were ethnic Chinese, correct?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Same objections.

 

      11         A.   Let me ask you, when you say "you," you mean

 

      12    me, or you mean my counsel included?  Everybody, team, 

 

      13    or just me, when you say --

 

      14         Q.   You.

 

      15         A.   Okay.  You -- you say I -- I insist I was

 

      16    fired because of I'm Chinese?  Is that your question?

 

      17         Q.   Yes.

 

      18         A.   Let me say again.  You mean I insist I was

 

      19    fired because I'm Chinese?  Am I right?  Is that your

 

      20    question?

 

      21         Q.   Yes.

 

      22         A.   The answer is no.

 

      23         Q.   It has been your position that you were

 

      24    indicted for crimes because you are ethnic Chinese?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  Same objections previously stated.


 

                                                               69

 

 

       1         A.   Again, you say I -- I insist because I was --

 

       2    I'm Chinese.  That's why I got indictment?  Is that

 

       3    right.

 

       4         Q.   My question was simple.  I'll repeat it now

 

       5    for the fifth time.  It is your -- it has been your

 

       6    position that you were indicted for crimes by the U.S.

 

       7    Government because you're ethnic Chinese?

 

       8         A.   I don't understand what do you mean "is my

 

       9    position."  What do you mean that?   I'm -- I have

 

      10    limited English understanding here, so that's why I

 

      11    want to ask you.

 

      12         Q.   How long have you been in the United States?

 

      13         A.   I came here in 1964.

 

      14         Q.   1964.  And you took courses on English?

 

      15         A.   Yes.

 

      16         Q.   And you've lived here now for 37 years? 

 

      17    You've spoken English for 37 years?

 

      18         A.   I speak Chinese at home most the time.

 

      19         Q.   When you communicated with your workers at

 

      20    Los Alamos, was it mostly in English?

 

      21         A.   Yes.

 

      22         Q.   And you had to have a very good grasp of

 

      23    English to be working at Los Alamos?

 

      24         A.   I don't understand what do you mean "grasp."

 

      25         Q.   You had to understand English pretty well to


 

                                                               70

 

 

       1    get a job at Los Alamos, didn't you?

 

       2         A.   I know my English not good, and I know I get

 

       3    a job in Los Alamos.  That's all I can tell you.

 

       4         Q.   To have a job at Los Alamos is very

 

       5    prestigious, is it not?

 

       6         A.   I don't know about that.

 

       7         Q.   It's a very important nuclear laboratory, is

 

       8    it not?

 

       9         A.   Maybe, but I don't know.

 

      10         Q.   And throughout your twenty years, you had a

 

      11    very high-level job there, did you not?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection.  What do you mean by

 

      13    "high level"?

 

      14         Q.   You had a very high-level job there, did you

 

      15    not?

 

      16         A.   Again, can you explain?  What do you mean

 

      17    "high level"?

 

      18         Q.   What was -- what was your salary when you

 

      19    left Los Alamos?  How much were you making per year?

 

      20         A.   I believe I was making 82K.

 

      21         Q.   $82,000 a year?

 

      22         A.   Yes, about that.

 

      23         Q.   That's good money, isn't it?

 

      24         A.   To my best knowledge, that is very low pay at

 

      25    the lab.


 

                                                               71

 

 

       1         Q.   Are you saying your position at Los Alamos

 

       2    was not important?

 

       3         A.   No, I'm saying I -- compared to other

 

       4    scientists, my pay is low, L-O-W.  Compared to the

 

       5    other scientists with my same background and same year

 

       6    experience, my pay is low.

 

       7         Q.   Are you saying that you didn't have to do

 

       8    most of your business at Los Alamos in English?

 

       9         A.   I didn't say that.  I'm saying my pay is low

 

      10    compared to other scientists.

 

      11         Q.   So let's -- let's get back to the original

 

      12    question.  It has been your position that you were

 

      13    indicted for crimes by the U.S. Government because you

 

      14    are ethnic Chinese, correct?

 

      15         A.   Again, I don't know -- let me repeat it.  Are

 

      16    you saying I was indict by U.S. Government, and the

 

      17    only reason is because I'm Chinese?  Is that your

 

      18    question?

 

      19         Q.   Yes.

 

      20         A.   The answer is no.

 

      21         Q.   Okay.  One reason why you were indicted by

 

      22    the U.S. Government, one reason, is because you are

 

      23    Chinese?  That has been your position, correct?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection, asked and answered, 

 

      25    misstates his testimony, argumentative.


 

                                                               72

 

 

       1         Q.   Answer, please. 

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's a new question.

 

       3         A.   Can you repeat your question?

 

       4         Q.   One reason why you were indicted for crimes

 

       5    by the U.S. Government is because you are Chinese. 

 

       6    That's been your position, correct?

 

       7         A.   Let me see if I understand your question. 

 

       8    You saying one of the reasons I was get indicted is

 

       9    because I'm Chinese?

 

      10         Q.   Yes.

 

      11         A.   The answer is no.

 

      12         Q.   Okay.  Now, one of the reasons that you were

 

      13    investigated for violating security regulations is

 

      14    because you're Chinese.  That's been your position,

 

      15    correct?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

      17         A.   When you say my "position," are you saying I

 

      18    think that's a reason?  I believe that's the reason I

 

      19    got investigate, because I'm Chinese?

 

      20         Q.   Yes.

 

      21         A.   Is that your question?

 

      22         Q.   Yes.

 

      23         A.   My best answer is I don't know.  I don't know

 

      24    why they investigate me.  I don't know why they fire

 

      25    me.  Does that satisfy you?


 

                                                               73

 

 

       1         Q.   Have you ever accused anyone of being a

 

       2    racist in your whole life?

 

       3         A.   Repeat your question.

 

       4         Q.   Have you ever accused anyone of being a

 

       5    racist in your whole life?

 

       6         A.   What do you mean "accuse" in here?

 

       7         Q.   "Accuse" means did you ever charge anyone

 

       8    with being a racist in your life.

 

       9         A.   The answer is no.

 

      10         Q.   And you've never told anyone to do that, have

 

      11    you, on your behalf?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection, to the extent that this

 

      13    answer to this question might implicate --

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  No speaking objections, please.

 

      15              MR. SUN:  -- attorney/client privilege, I'll

 

      16    instruct the witness not to answer.  You can answer it,

 

      17    Dr. Lee, as long --

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  I didn't ask about attorneys.

 

      19              MR. SUN:  As long as it doesn't implicate any

 

      20    attorney/client communications you can answer the

 

      21    question.

 

      22         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone --

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  And that is not subject to

 

      24    attorney/client privilege.  So this question is

 

      25    neutral.  I'm not agreeing to that.


 

                                                               74

 

 

       1         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone to claim that anyone

 

       2    else was racist?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Same admonition, Dr. Lee.

 

       4         A.   I don't understand your question.  Can you

 

       5    repeat it for me?

 

       6         Q.   Did you ever order anyone to ever make a

 

       7    claim that anyone that lives on this earth is racist?

 

       8         A.   Let me see if I understand your question. 

 

       9    Did I ever told somebody to accuse someone, say he is a

 

      10    racist to him?  Is that --

 

      11         Q.   Yes.

 

      12         A.   No.  The answer's no.

 

      13         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone to claim that you

 

      14    were investigated for violations of security

 

      15    regulations because you're Chinese?

 

      16         A.   Say again.

 

      17         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone to make the argument

 

      18    that you were investigated for national security

 

      19    violations because you're Chinese?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Same admonitions as before about

 

      21    attorney/client privilege, Dr. Lee, but you can answer

 

      22    the question.

 

      23              THE WITNESS:  Do you want me to answer or no?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Yeah, so long as you don't reveal

 

      25    attorney/client communications, you can answer the


 

                                                               75

 

 

       1    question.

 

       2         A.   The answer is no.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  My same caveat.  You can't make

 

       4    that claim.  That's not subject to attorney/client. 

 

       5    But we'll just leave that on the record right now.

 

       6         Q.   Do you, Dr. Lee, feel that you've been

 

       7    persecuted because you're Chinese?  Persecuted by the

 

       8    U.S. Government?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  I'm sorry, could you repeat that

 

      10    question?  Ask the court reporter --

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll repeat it.

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Yeah, please.

 

      13         Q.   Is it your position that you've been

 

      14    persecuted by the U.S. Government because you're ethnic

 

      15    Chinese?

 

      16         A.   You say prosecute?

 

      17         Q.   Persecuted.

 

      18         A.   Persecute same as a prosecute?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Well, could you --

 

      20         A.   I don't understand.

 

      21         Q.   All right.  I'll repeat it.  I'll repeat it. 

 

      22    Were you singled out by the U.S. Government for

 

      23    investigation --

 

      24         A.   Yes.

 

      25         Q.   -- because you're Chinese?  Is that your


 

                                                               76

 

 

       1    position?

 

       2         A.   You mean do I feel that way?

 

       3         Q.   Yes.

 

       4         A.   I don't know, because I don't know why I was

 

       5    been investigate.  I don't know.

 

       6         Q.   Okay.  Do you ever -- have you -- have you

 

       7    ever met a Notra Trulock?

 

       8         A.   No, not in my life.

 

       9         Q.   Do you know who he is?

 

      10         A.   I don't know who he is.

 

      11         Q.   Do you know --

 

      12         A.   I know he sue me.  That's all.

 

      13         Q.   Do you know what he -- what he used to do for

 

      14    the Department of Energy?

 

      15         A.   I know he work for DOE.  That's all I know.

 

      16         Q.   Is Mr. Trulock a racist?

 

      17         A.   What?

 

      18         Q.   Is Mr. Trulock a racist?

 

      19         A.   I don't know anything about him.  I can -- I

 

      20    don't know.

 

      21         Q.   Did Mr. Trulock single you out for an

 

      22    investigation because you're Chinese?

 

      23         A.   I don't know why I was fired.  I don't know

 

      24    why -- why I was fired, and I don't know who make that

 

      25    decision I was fire.  The only thing I know is Bill


 

                                                               77

 

 

       1    Richardson fire me in March 8, 1999.

 

       2         Q.   Did you ever tell anyone to say that Mr.

 

       3    Trulock is a racist?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  I think that's been asked and

 

       5    answered.

 

       6         A.   Say again.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  If that's your position.  We'll

 

       8    accept that.

 

       9         Q.   Are you aware that Mr. Trulock has been

 

      10    called a racist in the context of your investigation

 

      11    for national security violations?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      13         A.   I don't know anything about the answer.  I --

 

      14    I don't know him, and I -- I don't know anything what

 

      15    he do or whether he's a rac -- racist --

 

      16         Q.   Racist.

 

      17         A.   -- or not.  I don't know.

 

      18         Q.   Did -- did you tell your lawyers to say that

 

      19    Mr. Trulock is a racist?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Objection, instruct him not to

 

      21    answer, attorney/client privilege.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  No such privilege here. 

 

      23    Certify it.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Certify it.

 

      25         Q.   Did you -- did you --


 

                                                               78

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are you mocking me, Mr. Sun?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Oh, no, I'm not.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  You are mocking me.  Certify

 

       4    that, too.

 

       5         A.   Let me ask you, what do you mean "mocking"?

 

       6         Q.   Mocking, making fun of me.

 

       7              THE WITNESS:  Oh, I'm sorry.

 

       8              MR. SUN:  He thinks I'm making fun of him. 

 

       9    He's mistaken.

 

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  Fortunately, we have an audio

 

      11    here.

 

      12              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Thank you.

 

      13         Q.   Did you give permission to your lawyers to

 

      14    say that Mr. Trulock had singled you out for an

 

      15    investigation because you are Chinese?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection, instruct the witness not

 

      17    to answer.  Implicates attorney/client privilege.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  No such thing.  Certify it.

 

      19              You are alleged, Mr. Sun, in the Complaint to

 

      20    be an agent of Dr. Lee, and by instructing him not to

 

      21    answer, you are obstructing this case, and you have a

 

      22    conflict of interest, and you should withdraw

 

      23    representation.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Then that matter, to the extent you

 

      25    think it's relevant or should be raised, should be


 

                                                               79

 

 

       1    addressed by the Court.  Okay?  I think it's totally

 

       2    frivolous for you to suggest that.  So let's move on.

 

       3         Q.   Has anyone -- has it come to your attention

 

       4    -- strike that.

 

       5              You are aware that you were investigated for

 

       6    national security violations?

 

       7         A.   I don't know about that.

 

       8         Q.   You are aware that you were investigated for

 

       9    alleged security violations?

 

      10         A.   I don't know why they investigate on me. 

 

      11    Does that answer your question?  I -- to my best

 

      12    knowledge, I don't know.

 

      13         Q.   Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of

 

      14    Robert Vrooman?

 

      15         A.   I know he work for the Los Alamos National

 

      16    Lab, yes.

 

      17         Q.   And what was his position?

 

      18         A.   I don't know his position.  I know he work

 

      19    something -- had something to do with the security, to

 

      20    my best knowledge.  That's all I know.  I don't know

 

      21    his position.

 

      22         Q.   Do you know whether or not he has ever stated

 

      23    that Mr. Trulock singled you out because you're Chinese?

 

      24         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

      25         Q.   Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of


 

                                                               80

 

 

       1    Charles Washington?

 

       2         A.   To my best memory, I seen that name on

 

       3    newspaper some time ago.  I don't know when.

 

       4         Q.   Do you know whether or not Charles Washington

 

       5    ever said that you were singled out for investigation

 

       6    by Mr. Trulock because you are ethnic Chinese?

 

       7         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

       8         Q.   These issues were never raised with you by

 

       9    anyone?  This was never brought to your attention by

 

      10    anyone -- 

 

      11         A.   I don't --

 

      12         Q.   -- that Mr. Vrooman and Mr. Washington said

 

      13    that you were singled out for investigation by Mr.

 

      14    Trulock because you're ethnic Chinese?

 

      15         A.   I'm sorry, can you repeat your question?

 

      16         Q.   These statements by Mr. Vrooman and Mr.

 

      17    Washington, if true, that you were singled out for an

 

      18    investigation by Mr. Trulock because you're Chinese,

 

      19    you've never heard that discussed before?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Objection, vague and ambiguous.

 

      21         Q.   Correct?

 

      22         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't believe I have

 

      23    seen any statement like what you just said.  To my best

 

      24    memory.  I don't -- I don't believe I have seen any

 

      25    statement like exactly what you said.


 

                                                               81

 

 

       1         Q.   Okay.  You are aware that one of the bases of

 

       2    the Government's investigation was over whether or not

 

       3    information concerning the W88 warhead had been

 

       4    disclosed to the Chinese?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       6         A.   Can you repeat your question?

 

       7         Q.   You are aware that one of the bases of the

 

       8    Government's investigation of you --

 

       9         A.   One of the basis?

 

      10         Q.   One of the reasons.

 

      11         A.   One the reasons, okay.

 

      12         Q.   Yes.  Was because the -- because they

 

      13    believed that the information about the W88 nuclear

 

      14    warhead had been disclosed to the Chinese?

 

      15         A.   I'm sorry, you have to repeat one more time.

 

      16         Q.   You were aware that one of the reasons why

 

      17    you were investigated was over allegations that

 

      18    information about the W88 nuclear warhead --

 

      19         A.   Okay.  Let me repeat back --

 

      20         Q.   -- was disclosed to the Chinese?

 

      21         A.   Let me repeat your question, see if I

 

      22    understand your question.

 

      23         Q.   Sure.

 

      24         A.   Are you saying I am aware or I know the

 

      25    reason -- one of the reason the Government investigate


 

                                                               82

 

 

       1    on me is because the W88 information was leaked to

 

       2    China?  Is that what you're saying?

 

       3         Q.   Yes.

 

       4         A.   Again, I say I don't know.  To the best

 

       5    knowledge, I don't know why the Government investigate

 

       6    on me.  I don't know why.

 

       7         Q.   And another reason why you were investigated

 

       8    is because you had taken trips to China, to the

 

       9    People's Republic of China?

 

      10         A.   Again, I don't know why the Government

 

      11    investigate on me.  I don't know why.

 

      12         Q.   You don't know from any source why?

 

      13         A.   I don't know why -- what is the reason the

 

      14    Government investigate on me.  I don't know the

 

      15    reason.  I don't know why.

 

      16         Q.   No one ever told you that?  No one ever told

 

      17    you that, that one bases for investigating you is

 

      18    because you had traveled to the People's Republic of

 

      19    China?

 

      20         A.   To my best memory, I don't know why the

 

      21    Government investigate on me, and I don't know -- did

 

      22    anybody told me?  I don't remember anybody told me. 

 

      23    They investigate me because I went to China?  Is that

 

      24    your question?

 

      25         Q.   Yes.


 

                                                               83

 

 

       1         A.   I -- I just don't remember.

 

       2         Q.   Did anyone ever tell you that one reason why

 

       3    you were investigated is because you had had meetings

 

       4    with nuclear scientists of the People -- People's

 

       5    Republic of China.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  You know, at this point, I need to

 

       7    interpose an objection, that although I may allow some

 

       8    of this questioning to continue, I think it's now

 

       9    venturing into the realm of -- of areas that are

 

      10    outside the scope of this litigation.  But I will allow

 

      11    the witness to answer some more questions in the spirit

 

      12    of trying to give you some background and context for

 

      13    the matters that I do believe are within the scope of

 

      14    this litigation.  So you can answer the question.

 

      15         A.   The question -- the answer is, up to today, I

 

      16    still don't know why the Government investigate on me. 

 

      17    I don't know why, and, therefore, I cannot answer all

 

      18    the questions you just asked, because --

 

      19         Q.   All right.  Are you aware that the Government

 

      20    was concerned about the contacts that your wife Sylvia

 

      21    Lee had with individuals in the People's Republic of

 

      22    China?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      24         Q.   And that was a reason for an investigation?

 

      25         A.   Repeat, please.


 

                                                               84

 

 

       1         Q.   Are you aware that another reason for the

 

       2    Government's investigation concerned the contacts

 

       3    which -- which your wife Sylvia Lee had with

 

       4    individuals with the People's Republic of China?

 

       5         A.   I say again, I don't understand why I was

 

       6    being investigate, and I don't know why the Government

 

       7    investigate on me.  I don't know the reason.

 

       8         Q.   Have you ever heard of someone by the name of

 

       9    Hu Side. 

 

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  How is that pronounced? 

 

      11    S-I-D-E?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Hu Side.

 

      13         Q.   Hu Side.

 

      14         A.   I have heard the name, yes.

 

      15         Q.   You met with him, did you not?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.  What's the

 

      17    relevance of that question to this litigation, Mr.

 

      18    Klayman?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  It speaks for itself.  We're

 

      20    talking about bona fide reasons for investigation.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  But, we're not -- I don't -- does

 

      22    it have some relevance to the subject matter of the

 

      23    litigation --

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  -- which is allegations of whether


 

                                                               85

 

 

       1    or not Mr. Trulock was defamed?

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  I don't want to get into a

 

       3    discussion in front of the witness right now.  I'm

 

       4    asking for an answer.  You know what it's about.

 

       5         Q.   Did you ever meet with the anyone by the name

 

       6    of Hu Side?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  You know, I'm going to direct him

 

       8    not to answer that question until I --

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  -- until I get a proper

 

      11    explanation.

 

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's all over the record.  It's

 

      13    been briefed.  I assume you get copies of briefs.  Do

 

      14    you get copies of briefs?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  If you can give me a good

 

      16    explanation about why a meeting with someone like Hu

 

      17    Side is relevant to this litigation, I may let him

 

      18    answer the question.

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's have -- let's have Mr.

 

      20    Lee leave the room, and I'll give you that courtesy,

 

      21    even though I know full well that you know.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Well, why don't we do at a break so

 

      23    we don't waste your time. 

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's part of my -- my ongoing

 

      25    deposition.


 

                                                               86

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  It's you -- that's fine.  Do you

 

       2    want to a break?

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not taking a break.  I want

 

       4    -- you asked for a proffer.  I'm going to give to you. 

 

       5    Please have the witness leave the room.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Oh, okay.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Even though I know that you're

 

       8    opposing this to waste time, I'm willing to do it.

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Oh, okay.  Well, that's fine. 

 

      10    That's fine.  Why don't you leave the room.

 

      11              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  I'm still on.

 

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yeah, leave it on the record.

 

      13              (Mr. Lee leaves room.)

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Despite the fact that you know

 

      15    full well what this is about, the issue of whether or

 

      16    not -- are you listening to me?

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Yes, I am, Mr. Klayman.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  -- the issue of whether or not

 

      19    it was proper to brand Mr. Trulock, or at least illegal

 

      20    under the law to brand Mr. Trulock a racist and to say

 

      21    that he was engaging in racial profiling, that

 

      22    certainly bears on whether or not they were bona fide

 

      23    reasons to have conducted an investigation.  And it is

 

      24    the other side of the coin of having defamed Mr.

 

      25    Trulock by calling him a racist and saying that he


 

                                                               87

 

 

       1    engaged in racial profiling.  So it's directly

 

       2    relevant.  And it bears on his state of mind, it bears

 

       3    on his intent, it bears on maliciousless in terms of

 

       4    the alleged defamation.  All of those issues.  And

 

       5    that's been out there.  And it's in the public domain.

 

       6              And the Court has not made any rulings on

 

       7    this, as to whether or not the fact that he's a public

 

       8    figure and maliciousness would come into it would

 

       9    apply.  He's waiting for discovery to take place.  So

 

      10    you can't really instruct him not to answer.  He has to

 

      11    be able to answer these questions.

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Well, I think the record, as I

 

      13    understand it, as it exists now, is that Dr. Lee has

 

      14    testified here today that he doesn't know your client,

 

      15    he's heard his name; that he doesn't know whether he's

 

      16    a racist or not; and doesn't recall ever having

 

      17    communicated to anybody suggesting that he should be

 

      18    branded or labeled a racist.  So I don't understand why

 

      19    his having met with Hu Side, or anybody else who is

 

      20    ethnic Chinese, has anything to do with the allegations

 

      21    of your lawsuit.  And for those reasons, I would be

 

      22    instructing him not to answer, because I think you're

 

      23    venturing into the realm of the Government's

 

      24    investigation of Dr. Lee, which is, I think, totally

 

      25    outside the scope of the focus of -- of your


 

                                                               88

 

 

       1    complaint. 

 

       2              Now, I will add this observation.  To the

 

       3    extent that your focus of your questions focus on Mr.

 

       4    Trulock's role in Dr. Lee's investigation and any

 

       5    knowledge that my client has about Mr. Trulock's

 

       6    participation in the investigation, I think that is

 

       7    pertinent and relevant, and I would allow him to answer

 

       8    questions that are tied to Dr. Trulock -- or Mr.

 

       9    Trulock and the investigation.  And to the extent that

 

      10    there's some linkage between Mr. Trulock and the

 

      11    investigation and a meeting with Hu Side, and you can

 

      12    establish that for the record, then I may permit him

 

      13    into answering your questions.

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I don't have to -- see, I

 

      15    don't have to establish anything before you.  Because,

 

      16    you see, you forget your role.  You're not the judge. 

 

      17    This is a not a trial.  This is discovery.  So you are

 

      18    not the Court.

 

      19              MR. SUN:  But --

 

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  And I'm entitled to ask these

 

      21    questions.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  But I'm entitled to protect my

 

      23    witness from harassment, which is what -- I believe

 

      24    these questions certainly go into that realm.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Why is it harassment to ask if


 

                                                               89

 

 

       1    he meets with --  if he met with Hu Side?  Why is that

 

       2    harassment?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Because it's outside the scope of

 

       4    the litigation that you brought, and I don't think it's

 

       5    appropriate for this deposition.

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Is it harassment because Mr. Hu

 

       7    Side is Chinese?  Is that what you're saying?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  No, it's a matter of you're probing

 

       9    into matters of an investigation that may or may not

 

      10    have anything to do with your client's claims.  To the

 

      11    extent that you establish a nexus between your client's

 

      12    claims and the Government's investigation of Dr. Lee,

 

      13    I've just indicated to you, I may be willing to let him

 

      14    answer the questions.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I'm going to ask the

 

      16    questions, and you will instruct him at your own risk.

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Very well.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's bring him back.  It's

 

      19    unfortunate that these things, which have been gone

 

      20    over many, many times in this case, have to be used to

 

      21    try to run the clock out. 

 

      22              THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  I have about 16 minutes

 

      23    left on this videotape, just to let you know.  I'll

 

      24    give you a five-minute warning.

 

      25         Q.   Mr. Lee, did you ever meet with a Hu Side?


 

                                                               90

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Direct him not to answer.

 

       2         Q.   Do you know who Hu Side is?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Same direction.

 

       4         Q.   Okay.  He is a director in China's nuclear

 

       5    program; is he not?

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Same direction.  Don't answer.

 

       7         Q.   One of the reasons that Mr. Trulock included

 

       8    you in a list of names for investigation was because

 

       9    you had met in your hotel room in Beijing with Mr. Hu

 

      10    Side, correct?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.  You can

 

      12    answer the question.

 

      13         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      14         Q.   One of the reasons why you were investigated

 

      15    or included on a list of people to investigate, to your

 

      16    knowledge, was because you met with Hu Side behind

 

      17    closed doors in a Beijing hotel room, correct?

 

      18         A.   The answer is no.  I don't know.  I don't

 

      19    know why I was being investigate, and, therefore, I

 

      20    don't know is it relate to this question or not.  I

 

      21    don't know.

 

      22         Q.   When asked questions by Government

 

      23    investigators concerning whether or not you had

 

      24    discussed classified information with nuclear

 

      25    scientists of the People's Republic of China, you


 

                                                               91

 

 

       1    initially said that you had not, correct?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

       3              MR. COPPOLINO:  Can you hold for one second,

 

       4    Mr. Klayman?  Mr. Klayman, could you consider

 

       5    rephrasing the question, because he's not at liberty to

 

       6    tell you what Government investigators asked him.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  We have documents to that

 

       8    effect.  It's a matter of public record.  Have you read

 

       9    them?

 

      10              MR. COPPOLINO:  I've read many documents, and

 

      11    I know which ones you're referring to.  What -- what is

 

      12    in the newspaper isn't really relevant to --

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  No, we have actual document

 

      14    from you.

 

      15              MR. COPPOLINO:  And your question is just a

 

      16    little broad.  You're asking him -- would you just

 

      17    restate the question, so I understand it more clearly?

 

      18         Q.   You were investigated by the Federal

 

      19    Government for alleged security violations, correct?

 

      20         A.   Let me repeat.  I don't know why the

 

      21    Government investigate on me.  I don't -- to my best

 

      22    knowledge, I don't know why.  And . . .

 

      23         Q.   No one ever told you?

 

      24         A.   I will repeat again.  To my best knowledge, I

 

      25    don't know why the Government investigate on me.


 

                                                               92

 

 

       1         Q.   But no one told you the alleged reasons for

 

       2    your investigation?

 

       3         A.   Are you saying nobody told me why I was

 

       4    investigate?

 

       5         Q.   Yes.

 

       6         A.   I said, I don't know why I was investigate. 

 

       7    If somebody told me, I should know, but -- obviously.

 

       8         Q.   Okay.  You do remember Government

 

       9    investigators asking you whether you provided

 

      10    classified information to nuclear scientists from the

 

      11    People's Republic of China?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection.  As Mr. Coppolino

 

      13    previously stated, Dr. Lee is not at liberty to discuss

 

      14    what communications he had with Government

 

      15    investigators.  I believe that's our understanding of

 

      16    the --

 

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  He didn't say that.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Well, your question --

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  He asked me to rephrase the

 

      20    question, and you're not entitled to make an objection

 

      21    for him.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  No, I'm going to interpose this

 

      23    objection.  One, your phrasing of the question

 

      24    suggested in communications with the Government

 

      25    investigators.  We have an understanding and an


 

                                                               93

 

 

       1    agreement with the Government that we are not to

 

       2    disclose communications with the Government in

 

       3    interviews with the Government.  And because of that,

 

       4    I'm going to instruct him not to answer because we

 

       5    would be in violation or breach of that agreement.

 

       6              Now, if Mr. Coppolino believes otherwise and

 

       7    believes I should instruct the witness to -- the

 

       8    witness not to answer that question -- or instruct the

 

       9    witness to answer the question, I will reconsider my

 

      10    instruction.

 

      11              MR. COPPOLINO:  Right, just give me one

 

      12    second.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  And let me call your attention

 

      14    to a document, which I can put on the record, January

 

      15    4, 2000, from John Kelly and Paula G. Burnett, U.S.

 

      16    Department of Justice, United States Attorneys,

 

      17    District of New Mexico, to Mark Holscher of O'Melveny &

 

      18    Myers, and John D. Cline, Freedman, Boyd Daniels,

 

      19    Hollander, Goldberg, & Cline, Re:  United States vs.

 

      20    Wen Ho Lee, including documents, labeled FBI Bates

 

      21    numbers 4868 to 4950.  And I'll ask that this be marked

 

      22    as Exhibit 1.

 

      23              (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)

 

      24              MR. COPPOLINO:  Mr. Klayman, let me just

 

      25    state for the record, and I think this will help


 

                                                               94

 

 

       1    clarify our position -- and you can correct me if I'm

 

       2    wrong -- I'm referring to my FBI.  Your question went

 

       3    to all inquiries by Government investigation, by

 

       4    Government investigators.  Dr. Lee is not permitted to

 

       5    disclose questions he was asked by Government

 

       6    investigators during debriefings following the plea

 

       7    agreement.  This document does not appear to be that,

 

       8    cover that.

 

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Correct.  I wasn't asking for

 

      10    that.

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Okay.

 

      12              MR. COPPOLINO:  So with that clarification,

 

      13    as long as you're not asking about what he was asked in

 

      14    debriefings, I have no objection.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  And to clarify for the record, so

 

      17    the witness understands, Mr. Klayman is not asking you

 

      18    about any information that you communicated with the

 

      19    Government or they communicated with you in a period

 

      20    that began sometime around September or October 2000

 

      21    going forward. 

 

      22              Mr. Klayman is, I believe -- and he can state

 

      23    it correctly if I've misstated it -- asking about

 

      24    communications you had with the Government prior to

 

      25    that time and outside the scope of any agreement that


 

                                                               95

 

 

       1    Mr. Coppolino just referred to.  Okay?  Okay.

 

       2              With that admonition, please continue.

 

       3         Q.   You are -- you are aware that Federal

 

       4    Government investigators asked you whether you passed

 

       5    classed information to the Chinese, correct?

 

       6         A.   Repeat again.

 

       7         Q.   You are aware that Federal Government

 

       8    investigators asked you whether or not you provided

 

       9    classified information to -- to nuclear scientists of

 

      10    the People's Republic of China.

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.  I'm going

 

      12    to let him answer a couple of questions in this area,

 

      13    but if goes down the road that I think it is, I'm going

 

      14    to instruct him not to answer for reasons previously

 

      15    stated. 

 

      16              You can answer the question.

 

      17         A.   Let me see if I understand your question. 

 

      18    You saying the invest- -- the government

 

      19    investigator, I mean, like FBI -- they ask me the

 

      20    question?  They ask me a question did I pass classified

 

      21    information to China?  Is that your question?

 

      22         Q.   Yes.

 

      23         A.   I mean, do they ask me that question?

 

      24         Q.   Yes.

 

      25         A.   Does this fall into the Government


 

                                                               96

 

 

       1    communication or not?  I want to --

 

       2         Q.   They said no.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Actually, the question is vague and

 

       4    ambiguous to the extent it could call for information

 

       5    in the period that you're restricted from answering it.

 

       6              MR. COPPOLINO:  Right.  The only -- the only

 

       7    basis for our objection, and my instruction to you,

 

       8    would be not to disclose questions that were asked of

 

       9    you in the postplea debriefing sessions.  That's it. 

 

      10    So it might be helpful if the question were directed

 

      11    towards the time period prior to that.  But in any

 

      12    event, that is the instruction.  You cannot disclose

 

      13    the content of questions you were asked in the postplea

 

      14    debriefing sessions.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.  Up to the point --

 

      16              MR. SUN:  And to make the record clear here,

 

      17    I'm going to direct him not to answer unless you

 

      18    specifically focus this better, Mr. Klayman.  You have

 

      19    put Exhibit 1 in front of him.  Do you make reference

 

      20    to it in the context of your question?

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  I didn't put it in front of

 

      22    him. 

 

      23              MR. SUN:  Then --

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  You put it in front of him.  I

 

      25    didn't put it in front of him.


 

                                                               97

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Well, it was handed to us.  If you

 

       2    want it back, you can have it.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Your co-counsel put it in front

 

       4    of him.  I asked a simple que-  --

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Your associate gave it to us.

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  I gave it -- I gave it -- I

 

       7    didn't put it in front of the witness.  I gave it to

 

       8    Government counsel so they could confirm that these

 

       9    questions were asked publicly.

 

      10         Q.   Now, Mr. Lee, I'll ask the question again. 

 

      11    Up to the point where you entered into a plea agreement

 

      12    with the U.S. Government, did U.S. Government

 

      13    investigators ever ask you whether you'd passed

 

      14    classified information to nuclear scientists of the

 

      15    People's Republic of China?

 

      16         A.   Let me ask Mr. -- what?

 

      17              MR. COPPOLINO:  Coppolino.

 

      18              THE WITNESS:  -- Coppolino.  You saying if -- 

 

      19    if this question he ask, if it's been asked during the

 

      20    -- how do you call that? -- the debriefing, I'm not

 

      21    supposed to answer; is that right?

 

      22              MR. COPPOLINO:  You're not supposed to

 

      23    indicated what was asked during the debriefings.

 

      24              THE WITNESS:  Oh.  I'm not supposed to say

 

      25    this question was been asking?


 

                                                               98

 

 

       1              MR. COPPOLINO:  Well, all I'm telling you is

 

       2    the --  you're not to reveal the content of the

 

       3    debriefings.

 

       4              THE WITNESS:  But suppose this question was

 

       5    asked in the same time?

 

       6              MR. COPPOLINO:  Well, I understand that.  And

 

       7    I guess --

 

       8              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer or not?

 

       9              MR. COPPOLINO:  -- I understand your point,

 

      10    and I think it -- but the last question was rephrased

 

      11    with respect to the period prior to the debriefings. 

 

      12    Is that correct, Mr. Klayman?

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.  It's very clear.

 

      14              MR. COPPOLINO:  So he's asking you for the

 

      15    period prior to the debriefings.  And as to the period

 

      16    prior to the debriefings, you can testify as to what

 

      17    Government investigators asked you.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  All right.  I'm going to -- do you

 

      19    understand what Mr. Coppolino said?

 

      20              THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I understand.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  All right.  I'm going to interpose

 

      22    an objection for reasons previously stated.  This is

 

      23    going beyond the scope.  I'm going to make it easier. 

 

      24    I'm going to direct you not to answer, Dr. Lee.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  The purpose of objections is


 

                                                               99

 

 

       1    not to make things easier.  Is that a legal objection? 

 

       2    It's called "the objection to make things easier"?  Is

 

       3    that what you're saying, Mr. Sun?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Dr. Lee, I'm going to direct you

 

       5    not to answer that question.

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       7         Q.   There were legitimate bases to investigate

 

       8    you for violation of security regulations, were there

 

       9    not, Mr. Lee?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

      11         A.   I have a hard time trying to understand. 

 

      12    Please --

 

      13         Q.   There were legitimate reasons to investigate

 

      14    you, Dr. Lee, over allegations of violation of security

 

      15    regulations?

 

      16         A.   Okay.  Let me see if I understand your

 

      17    question.  Are you ask me the Government investigate on

 

      18    me because I know the reason they investigate on me is

 

      19    because of security violations?

 

      20         Q.   Let me see if I can make it even simpler. 

 

      21    You're not complaining that the Government investigated

 

      22    you for security violations, are you?  You don't have

 

      23    any complaint about that?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      25         A.   I -- I don't have any complaint about what


 

                                                               100

 

 

       1    the Government want to do.  I have no choice.  I'm a

 

       2    citizen of this country, and the Government want to

 

       3    investigate on me, I accept it.  So does that answer

 

       4    your question?

 

       5         Q.   And you don't believe that the Government did

 

       6    anything wrong in having you investigated, do you?

 

       7         A.   I didn't say that.  Everybody make mistake. 

 

       8    I mean, they maybe made mistake, maybe not, I don't

 

       9    know.

 

      10         Q.   You don't have any knowledge that the

 

      11    Government made a mistake in investigating you?

 

      12         A.   So far, I don't know why they investigate on

 

      13    me.  I still don't know why.

 

      14         Q.   And you don't have any specific information

 

      15    that what they did was improper?

 

      16         A.   I -- I just don't know why they investigate

 

      17    on me, and -- but I don't understand whether it's

 

      18    proper or improper.  I -- I have no knowledge.

 

      19         Q.   Has anyone ever tell -- told you -- has

 

      20    anyone ever told you that the Government's

 

      21    investigation on you was improper?

 

      22         A.   To my best memory, I don't believe anybody

 

      23    told me that.

 

      24         Q.   Did anyone ever tell you that the

 

      25    Government's investigation of you violated the law?


 

                                                               101

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form. 

 

       2              Do you understand the question?

 

       3         Q.   I'll repeat it.

 

       4         A.   Well, I don't know what the law, because I --

 

       5         Q.   I'm just asking, did anyone ever tell you --

 

       6         A.   Yes.

 

       7         Q.   -- that the Government's investigation of

 

       8    you, Dr. Wen Ho Lee, was unlawful?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form, vague and

 

      10    ambiguous.

 

      11         A.   To my best memory, I -- I don't remember

 

      12    anybody told me what you just said.

 

      13         Q.   Looking back, do you believe that you did

 

      14    anything wrong that warranted investigation? 

 

      15         A.   To my best judgment, I believe I did

 

      16    everything, I feel it is correct, but I don't know why

 

      17    the Government investigate on me.  I don't know.  I

 

      18    don't understand that.

 

      19         Q.   So you do not accept the basis of the plea

 

      20    agreement that you made with the Government?

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative.  I'm

 

      22    going to direct him not to answer that question.  That

 

      23    has no relevance to this litigation.

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  It has a lot of relevance, and

 

      25    it bears on truthfulness and veracity.  He had to make


 

                                                               102

 

 

       1    representations to the Court that he accepted the plea

 

       2    agreement and understood what he did and regretted what

 

       3    he did.

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Now, you're really making speeches. 

 

       5    I'm directing him not to answer.  Move on.

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       7              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  That's the end of

 

       8    Videotape 1.  The time is 11:30. We're going off the

 

       9    record.

 

      10              (Recess taken.)

 

      11              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you.  We're back on

 

      12    the record, Videotape 2.  The time is 11:36.

 

      13         Q.   I'm going to show you what I'll ask the court

 

      14    reporter to mark as Exhibit 2, which is your Notice of

 

      15    Deposition Duces Tecum.

 

      16              (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)

 

      17              MR. FITTON:  Mr. Sun.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Thank you.  Just so I can

 

      19    understand, Mr. Klayman.  Has Exhibit 1 been marked and

 

      20    circulated to everyone or --

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  It has. 

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Okay.

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  I marked it so we would have a

 

      24    record of what I showed the Government.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  All right.  Could I have my copy


 

                                                               103

 

 

       1    back?  Thank you.

 

       2         Q.   Dr. Lee, have you ever seen Exhibit 2 before?

 

       3         A.   This one?

 

       4         Q.   Yes.

 

       5         A.   Yes, I have seen this.

 

       6         Q.   When did you see it?

 

       7         A.   Before -- before we come into this room.

 

       8         Q.   Just today?

 

       9         A.   I saw this -- yeah, this morning, early

 

      10    morning.  I read it.

 

      11         Q.   This is an Amended Notice of Deposition Duces

 

      12    Tecum to Wen Ho Lee.  There is an attachment to this

 

      13    Amended Notice of Deposition, "Exhibit A."  Did you

 

      14    read that before you came into the room this morning?

 

      15         A.   I read this and -- this is one document

 

      16    similar to my wife, you know.  I -- I don't know, there

 

      17    was a few page, and I seen that maybe a few weeks ago. 

 

      18    Some time ago.

 

      19         Q.   But you didn't see yours until today?

 

      20         A.   This one, I saw today.

 

      21         Q.   Okay.

 

      22         A.   Almost like this, yeah.

 

      23         Q.   And has anyone ever asked you to search for

 

      24    the documents that are requested in Exhibit A?

 

      25         A.   Yes.  They asked me on the same stuff here


 

                                                               104

 

 

       1    about maybe -- maybe two weeks ago.  I don't remember. 

 

       2    Some -- some time ago.

 

       3         Q.   Who's "they"?  Who asked you?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Without getting into privileged --

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  That's not privileged.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  -- you can just identify who it was

 

       7    that asked you.

 

       8         A.   One of the lawyer in his firm.

 

       9         Q.   Did they read to you each of these paragraphs?

 

      10         A.   No, they fax to me, and I read it, and I --

 

      11    and I did search in my house, and I --

 

      12         Q.   So they faxed you the Amended Notice of

 

      13    Deposition Duces Tecum, Exhibit 2?  It was faxed to

 

      14    you?

 

      15         A.   No, they faxed me something similar to those

 

      16    page here.

 

      17         Q.   Okay.

 

      18         A.   But not the front page.

 

      19         Q.   Similar to "Exhibit A"?

 

      20         A.   Similar to the last two page.  To the last

 

      21    two page.

 

      22         Q.   Last two pages where it says "Requests"?

 

      23         A.   To search, yes.

 

      24         Q.   1 through 12.  But you're not sure -- that

 

      25    the answer is yes, similar?  You're nodding.  You have


 

                                                               105

 

 

       1    to give an oral response.

 

       2         A.   I say it's a similar, yes.

 

       3         Q.   But you're not sure if it's the same?

 

       4         A.   I don't remember it's identical or not.  I

 

       5    don't remember.  But it's -- it's a very similar.

 

       6         Q.   Did you search for documents?

 

       7         A.   I did.

 

       8         Q.   Did you find any?

 

       9         A.   I did not find any.

 

      10         Q.   Do you still have documents in your

 

      11    possession that relate in any way to your investigation

 

      12    and indictment and ultimate conviction?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  When you say "possession," personal

 

      14    possession?

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Okay.

 

      17         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      18         Q.   Do you have documents in your house that

 

      19    concern the -- that come from Los Alamos?

 

      20         A.   Concern about what?

 

      21         Q.   Do you have documents in your house today

 

      22    that emanate or come from Los Alamos Nuclear

 

      23    Laboratories?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection, vague.

 

      25         Q.   Do you have documents in your house, as of


 

                                                               106

 

 

       1    now, that originate from Los Alamos Nuclear

 

       2    Laboratories?

 

       3         A.   I'm trying to think.  The answer is no.

 

       4         Q.   Who has those documents?  Your attorneys?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Objection, I thought I heard him

 

       6    say no.

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  I asked him if he had them at

 

       8    his house.

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Okay.  This still assumes that he

 

      10    has records.

 

      11         Q.   When you left Los Alamos, did you take

 

      12    documents with you?

 

      13         A.   When I left the Los Alamos in March 8th, I

 

      14    did not carry any document.  I did not carry anything. 

 

      15    Mike Lowe can verify that.  They -- Mike Lowe told me I

 

      16    can take my car key; my cash, which was about 10 or 20

 

      17    dollars; my driver's license; my lunch sack.  To my

 

      18    best memory, that's all I can remember.  I did not take

 

      19    any LANL document or book or report or paper.  I did

 

      20    not -- oh, yeah, they give me a piece paper that say --

 

      21    stay -- I don't remember that either.  They may give me

 

      22    a piece paper why I get fire, but I don't remember

 

      23    that.  That's all I remember.

 

      24         Q.   Before you were fired, you had taken

 

      25    documents and other things out of Los Alamos Nuclear


 

                                                               107

 

 

       1    Laboratories and brought them home?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection, vague.

 

       3         A.   To my best memory, I -- I may have some

 

       4    document took home before I get fire; however, to my

 

       5    best memory, the FBI took all of them.

 

       6         Q.   What documents did you take home?

 

       7         A.   I don't remember.

 

       8         Q.   What kinds of documents?

 

       9         A.   You have to ask the FBI.  I don't know.  I

 

      10    can't remember.

 

      11         Q.   The document -- the FBI came into your home

 

      12    with a search warrant and took the documents?

 

      13         A.   They took about -- more than ten box.  I

 

      14    don't -- I don't know.  I don't remember what's inside.

 

      15         Q.   So you had taken at least ten boxes home of

 

      16    documents from Los Alamos --

 

      17         A.   No.

 

      18         Q.   -- before the FBI raided your home? 

 

      19         A.   They took ten box.  Include most of them are

 

      20    my private -- I mean, my personal items.  But some of

 

      21    them may be -- some of them may be related to the Los

 

      22    Alamos Lab document.  Some.  But I don't remember what

 

      23    they took.

 

      24         Q.   About how much in -- given the ten boxes,

 

      25    about how much in those boxes related to Los Alamos?


 

                                                               108

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Objection.  Mr. Klayman, what's the

 

       2    relevance of that to the subject matter of this

 

       3    lawsuit?

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Discovery is that which is

 

       5    relevant --

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Sorry.  One of us --

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Discovery is that which is

 

       8    relevant or which may lead to relevant evidence.

 

       9              MR. SUN:  I don't see the --

 

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  First off, I'm trying to

 

      11    identify the documents that he had, that's perfectly

 

      12    relevant, and where they may be, because we can

 

      13    subpoena others to get those documents.

 

      14              MR. SUN:  How does that relate to the subject

 

      15    matter of this lawsuit, is my question.

 

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, until I see the

 

      17    documents, I don't know.  I'm trying to find out.      

 

      18              MR. SUN:  I'm going let him allow -- allow

 

      19    him to answer a few more questions in this area.  If I

 

      20    think it's continuing down this road, I'm going to

 

      21    direct him not to answer.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  You know, I -- this objection,

 

      23    I think as much as any other, shows the lack of good

 

      24    faith.  It's -- it's absolutely outrageous.  I don't

 

      25    understand how an individual who's already pled guilty


 

                                                               109

 

 

       1    to a crime -- apparently feels he did nothing wrong --

 

       2    so I don't understand how the Court could be told that

 

       3    he was accepting that plea agreement.  That's number

 

       4    one. 

 

       5              But assuming that's the case, how somebody

 

       6    who's already pled guilty, that basically is off

 

       7    scot-free, unless he lies, cannot be answering

 

       8    questions that deal with trying to find documents that

 

       9    may be relevant to this case.  I don't understand.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  In light of your statements, which

 

      11    I think reflect and confirm to me the fact that you

 

      12    intend to explore areas that have nothing to do with

 

      13    this lawsuit, I'm going to instruct him now not to

 

      14    answer that question.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify.

 

      16         Q.   You don't know what those documents contain,

 

      17    do you?  You don't know what they're about, that were

 

      18    taken out of your house by the FBI, correct?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Objection, asked and answered.

 

      20         A.   I don't remember what the content of those

 

      21    document the FBI took.  But I do know, 100 percent

 

      22    sure, it has nothing to do with this case, the Notra

 

      23    Trulock.  Has nothing to do with Notra Trulock, has

 

      24    nothing to do with -- I don't know what you guy try to

 

      25    accuse me.  I -- I know it's nothing to do with Notra


 

                                                               110

 

 

       1    Trulock, for sure.

 

       2         Q.   The documents that were taken out of your

 

       3    house deal with matters related to the Government's

 

       4    investigation of you, correct?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Objection, calls for speculation.

 

       6         A.   I don't understand your question.  Please --

 

       7         Q.   The documents which the FBI took from your

 

       8    house are documents that were taken in the context of

 

       9    the FBI's investigation of you, correct?

 

      10         A.   I don't understand.  I'm sorry.

 

      11         Q.   All right.

 

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, let the record speak for

 

      13    itself that I'm being blocked from learning if others

 

      14    documents exist that may be relevant to this case.

 

      15         A.   No, I'm --

 

      16              MR. SUN:  You don't have to answer.  He's

 

      17    making a statement.  He hasn't asked you a question. 

 

      18    Okay?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Because you, Mr. Sun, have

 

      20    instructed him not to answer.

 

      21         Q.   Now, are you aware that your lawyers made a

 

      22    defense for you in the context of your criminal

 

      23    proceeding with the Government that you were being

 

      24    prosecuted for selective reasons because you're Chinese?

 

      25         A.   I don't understand your question.


 

                                                               111

 

 

       1         Q.   Okay.  Do you have any knowledge as to

 

       2    whether or not your lawyers have made the legal

 

       3    argument that you were prosecuted by the Federal

 

       4    Government because you're Chinese?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       6         A.   Let me repeat, see if I understand your

 

       7    question.  Do I know my lawyer make a argument with or,

 

       8    say, motion -- now I learn motion.  Do I know my lawyer

 

       9    write a motion, argue with the Government, that I was

 

      10    investigate because I'm Chinese?  Is that -- is that

 

      11    your question?

 

      12         Q.   Almost.  Do you know that your lawyers made

 

      13    an argument with the Court after you were indicted --

 

      14         A.   Um-hmm.

 

      15         Q.   -- for alleged crimes, that you were

 

      16    indicted --

 

      17         A.   What do you mean "allege crime"?  For crime?

 

      18         Q.   For crimes.

 

      19         A.   Okay.

 

      20         Q.   That you were -- let me rephrase the whole

 

      21    thing again.  Are you aware that your lawyers made an

 

      22    argument with the Court that you were investigated and

 

      23    indicted for alleged crimes because you're ethnic

 

      24    Chinese?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.


 

                                                               112

 

 

       1         A.   To my best knowledge, I -- I -- I vague --

 

       2    you know, very vaguely remember my lawyer --

 

       3              THE WITNESS:  Can I say anything about

 

       4    lawyer?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  You can -- you can -- you can't

 

       6    talk about what you and your lawyer discussed.  Other

 

       7    than that, if you can answer the question without

 

       8    revealing what you and your lawyers discussed, then you

 

       9    can answer the question.

 

      10         A.   Then I -- I cannot answer the question.

 

      11         Q.   No, my question was, Are you aware that your

 

      12    lawyers made an argument before the Court, this is an

 

      13    argument which is public, that you were investigated

 

      14    and/or prosecuted for alleged crimes because you're

 

      15    Chinese?

 

      16         A.   I remember there's a motion in the court.  Is

 

      17    that what you mean?  And something like a -- something

 

      18    like a selected prosecution?  Is that -- is that mean

 

      19    anything?  Selective prosecution?  That's -- that's all

 

      20    I remember.

 

      21         Q.   Do you know what "selective prosecution" is?

 

      22         A.   I don't know -- I don't know exactly what

 

      23    that mean, definition.

 

      24         Q.   Do you know generally what it means?

 

      25         A.   I -- I'm not lawyer.  I don't know.  But I


 

                                                               113

 

 

       1    remember they make some argument, make something -- I

 

       2    may be wrong, but to my best memory, it's something

 

       3    relate to selective prosecution.  Something like that.

 

       4         Q.   You authorized your lawyers to make that

 

       5    argument?

 

       6         A.   I don't remember.  What do you mean

 

       7    "authorize" here?  Do you mean I told --

 

       8         Q.   You instructed your lawyers to make that

 

       9    argument.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection.  To the extent that that

 

      11    involves you revealing attorney/client communications,

 

      12    I instruct you not to answer.  

 

      13              Do you understand the question?

 

      14              THE WITNESS:  Do you want me to answer?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  If you can answer the question

 

      16    without revealing communications between you and your

 

      17    counsel, you can do so.  If you can't answer the

 

      18    question without revealing communications you have with

 

      19    your criminal counsel, Dr. Lee, you should not answer

 

      20    the question.

 

      21         A.   I cannot answer.

 

      22         Q.   Okay.  So am I to assume, the fact that you

 

      23    can't answer that question, that you did instruct your

 

      24    lawyers to make that argument, that you were being

 

      25    singled out because you're Chinese?


 

                                                               114

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Objection, I'm sorry, I don't --

 

       2    vague and ambiguous.

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, if he didn't instruct

 

       4    them, then it's not covered by attorney/client

 

       5    privilege.

 

       6         Q.   Did you not instruct your client -- did you

 

       7    not instruct your lawyers to make the argument that you

 

       8    were being singled out because you're Chinese?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  And I think he said he can't answer

 

      10    that question without revealing the communication.

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  No, no, no.  I'm saying -- I'm

 

      12    saying -- please, listen to the question.

 

      13         Q.   Is it true that you did not instruct your

 

      14    lawyers, you did not communicate with your lawyers, to

 

      15    put forward a defense that you were being singled out

 

      16    because you're Chinese?

 

      17         A.   To my best memory, I do not remember whether

 

      18    I instruct my lawyer or not.  I just don't remember now.

 

      19         Q.   Now, that proved to be a very important part

 

      20    of your defense, did it not --

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection as to the form.

 

      22         Q.   -- the claim that you were being singled out

 

      23    because you're Chinese?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      25         A.   To my best memory, I do not remember whether


 

                                                               115

 

 

       1    I told my lawyer or not about -- about selective

 

       2    prosecution.  I just don't remember today.

 

       3         Q.   That was an important part of your defense,

 

       4    correct?

 

       5         A.   I don't remember whether I instruct them to

 

       6    do that or not.  I just don't remember.

 

       7              MR. SUN:  I don't think that's his question,

 

       8    Mr. -- Dr. Lee.  Listen to his question.

 

       9         Q.   You are aware that that was part of your

 

      10    defense, was it not, that you were being prosecuted

 

      11    because you were Chinese?

 

      12         A.   I don't remember exactly what you said, but I

 

      13    remember that something called selective prosecution --

 

      14    or selective -- something like that.  It's part of the

 

      15    important defense, yes, I remember.  There was a motion

 

      16    like that.  I don't know whether they said what you

 

      17    just said.  I don't remember that, the detail.

 

      18         Q.   Well, since it was so important, you would

 

      19    remember it, wouldn't you?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      21         Q.   Since it was so important, you would remember

 

      22    whether you --

 

      23         A.   I -- I having something more --

 

      24         Q.   -- instructed your lawyers, correct?

 

      25         A.   I have something more important than the


 

                                                               116

 

 

       1    whole case.

 

       2         Q.   If you had lost this case, you could have

 

       3    gone to jail for the rest of your life, correct?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       5         Q.   You were aware of that, correct, at the time?

 

       6         A.   I don't know.  I don't know whether I would

 

       7    go to jail for the rest of life or not.  I don't know.

 

       8         Q.   Did anyone ever tell you that if you lost the

 

       9    case that the Government brought against you, you could

 

      10    go to jail for your life?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Same as previous admonitions about

 

      12    attorney/client privilege; otherwise, you can answer

 

      13    the question, Dr. Lee.

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, you know, to be

 

      15    attorney/client privilege, it has to be a confidential

 

      16    communication, something which is inherently

 

      17    confidential.  The fact that there's a life penalty for

 

      18    violating national security is not a confidential

 

      19    subject to any attorney/client privilege.  That's a

 

      20    publicly known fact.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  All I've said is that anything that

 

      22    involves him revealing attorney/client communications,

 

      23    he would be instructed not to answer on.  Other than

 

      24    that, he can answer the question.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  But what I'm saying is, is that


 

                                                               117

 

 

       1    that's not a covered and privileged attorney/client

 

       2    communication, because it's simply the law.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Well, you're entitled to your view

 

       4    of the law.  I'm just merely instructing the witness

 

       5    based upon what I believe to be the law.

 

       6         Q.   Okay.  Did anyone ever tell you that if you

 

       7    lost your case with the Government, that you could go

 

       8    to jail for the rest of your life?

 

       9         A.   Anyone?  Do you mean including my lawyer or

 

      10    not including my lawyer?

 

      11         Q.   Anyone.

 

      12         A.   No anyone including my lawyer?

 

      13         Q.   Yes.

 

      14              MR. SUN:  And I'm instructing you that if

 

      15    it's going to involve communications between you and

 

      16    your lawyer to answer the question, then you should not

 

      17    answer the question, but if you can answer it without

 

      18    revealing communications with your lawyer, then please

 

      19    answer the question.

 

      20         A.   The answer is no.  No.

 

      21         Q.   Okay.  Now, you said other things were more

 

      22    important to you.  What other things were more

 

      23    important to you?  Please tell us.

 

      24         A.   Fishing.

 

      25         Q.   What?


 

                                                               118

 

 

       1         A.   Fishing.

 

       2         Q.   Fishing?

 

       3         A.   Catch fish.

 

       4         Q.   Fishing is important?

 

       5         A.   It's very important to my life.

 

       6         Q.   Why is that?

 

       7         A.   I enjoy.

 

       8         Q.   And you can't fish in jail?

 

       9         A.   That's very correct.

 

      10         Q.   Anything else important to you?

 

      11         A.   Musics.  I like musics.

 

      12         Q.   Can't listen to music in jail?

 

      13         A.   Not for two, three months.  Not after my

 

      14    lawyer has to fight with the Government.

 

      15         Q.   So, therefore, the defenses that were raised

 

      16    on your behalf were very important, because unless you

 

      17    got out of jail, you couldn't go fishing or listening

 

      18    to music, correct?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      20         A.   What is your question?

 

      21         Q.   I said, therefore, the legal arguments that

 

      22    your lawyers made for you to try to get you out of jail

 

      23    were important, because otherwise you couldn't go

 

      24    fishing or listen to music.

 

      25         A.   Yes.


 

                                                               119

 

 

       1         Q.   And, therefore, you would have remembered

 

       2    those arguments, correct, if you had authorized them?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       4         Q.   Correct?

 

       5         A.   No.

 

       6         Q.   When you worked at Los Alamos, did you have a

 

       7    reputation at Los Alamos for having a bad memory?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       9         A.   You have to ask the people in Los Alamos.  I

 

      10    don't know.

 

      11         Q.   Is it your position that you have a bad

 

      12    memory?

 

      13         A.   I remember something which is important to

 

      14    me, and I don't remember something which is not

 

      15    important to me.

 

      16         Q.   So consequently, the issue of whether or not

 

      17    you were singled out for an investigation and then

 

      18    prosecution by the Federal Government because you're

 

      19    Chinese is not important, and that's why you don't

 

      20    remember?

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      22         Q.   Correct?

 

      23         A.   I did not say that.  I said there is a

 

      24    motion, I can barely remember it, something to do with

 

      25    the selective prosecution, or something to do with


 

                                                               120

 

 

       1    that, but I don't remember the detail inside.  I didn't

 

       2    say it's not important.  I didn't -- I just don't

 

       3    remember now.

 

       4         Q.   Well, you told me that you remember what's

 

       5    important and you don't remember what's unimportant. 

 

       6    That's what you said, isn't it?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form. 

 

       8              You can answer that yes or no, Dr. Lee.

 

       9         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      10         Q.   You have previously testified, just a few

 

      11    moments ago, that you remember that which is important,

 

      12    and you do not remember that which is not important. 

 

      13    That's what you testified to, correct?  Did you testify

 

      14    to that?

 

      15         A.   Yes, I did.

 

      16         Q.   Are you aware that your lawyers made

 

      17    statements to the Court and in public that you were

 

      18    investigated and then prosecuted because you're ethnic

 

      19    Chinese?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      21         A.   Let me see if I understand your question.  Do

 

      22    I know my lawyer make a statement, say I been

 

      23    investigate or been prosecute because I'm Chinese?  Is

 

      24    that --

 

      25         Q.   Yes.


 

                                                               121

 

 

       1         A.   -- is that your question?

 

       2         Q.   Yes.

 

       3         A.   You mean did my lawyer make a statement on

 

       4    that?

 

       5         Q.   Yes.

 

       6         A.   To my best knowledge -- memory, I cannot

 

       7    remember that either.

 

       8         Q.   You certainly never told anyone to make that

 

       9    statement, did you?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      11         A.   I may have told my lawyer, but I don't

 

      12    remember today.

 

      13         Q.   Do you think you might remember tomorrow?

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

      15         Q.   Based on your experience and the way that

 

      16    your memory works, do you think you might remember

 

      17    tomorrow after this deposition is over?

 

      18         A.   If I don't remember today, I probably, most

 

      19    likely, I don't remember tomorrow.

 

      20         Q.   And you won't remember at the time of the

 

      21    trial of this lawsuit, will you, based on your

 

      22    experience with your memory?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  Objection, you're badgering the

 

      24    witness.  I instruct him not to answer.  Move on.

 

      25         Q.   Does your memory sometimes come back to you


 

                                                               122

 

 

       1    later?  You can answer the question.

 

       2         A.   I don't know.

 

       3         Q.   You don't remember that either?

 

       4         A.   I don't know if my memory will come back or

 

       5    not.  I don't know.

 

       6         Q.   Now, one of the reasons why you were

 

       7    investigated by the Federal Government is because the

 

       8    Federal Government believed that you were not truthful

 

       9    with it, correct?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.  What's the

 

      11    relevance in this litigation, Mr. Klayman?

 

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll use another word.

 

      13         Q.   One of the reasons that you were investigated

 

      14    by the Federal Government is because the Government

 

      15    believed that you lied to it, correct?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Is there some connection between

 

      17    that question, Mr. Klayman, and Mr. Trulock and his

 

      18    lawsuit here?

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes, there is.

 

      20              MR. SUN:  What is that?

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not going to say it in

 

      22    front of the witness.  You know what it is.

 

      23              MR. SUN:  I'm going to direct him not to

 

      24    answer until I  --

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.


 

                                                               123

 

 

       1         Q.   You are aware that you failed polygraph

 

       2    examinations given by the Government, correct?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Objection, direct him not to

 

       4    answer.

 

       5         Q.   You --

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       7         Q.   You are aware that you contacted an

 

       8    individual who was under investigation for security

 

       9    violations and then lied to the Federal Government and

 

      10    told them that you did not contact that person?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection --

 

      12         Q.   -- correct?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  Objection, direct him not to

 

      14    answer.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      16         Q.   You are aware that there were specific

 

      17    reasons why you were investigated, Mr. Lee, correct?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      19              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Yeah, if you can understand the

 

      21    question, sure.

 

      22         A.   I repeat again, even today, I don't know why

 

      23    the Government investigate on me.

 

      24         Q.   So as far as you know, the fact that you had

 

      25    contacted someone under investigation had nothing to do


 

                                                               124

 

 

       1    with your being investigated?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form, and I'd also

 

       3    direct him not to answer for reasons previously stated.

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it. 

 

       5              We can break for lunch now.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Okay.  How long do you want to

 

       7    take?

 

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  An hour.

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Okay.

 

      10              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off the

 

      11    record.  The time is 12:07 p.m.

 

      12              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're back on the record. 

 

      13    The time is 1:20 p.m.  Thank you.

 

      14         Q.   You realize you're still under oath, Mr. Lee?

 

      15         A.   Um-hmm, yes.

 

      16         Q.   In waging your criminal defense, who were

 

      17    your lawyers?

 

      18         A.   There are several lawyers.  The major one I

 

      19    know is Mark Holscher.

 

      20         Q.   How is that name spelled?

 

      21         A.   I do the best I can.  M-A-R-K, H-O-R- --

 

      22         Q.   H-O-L-S-C-H-E-R?

 

      23         A.   Yeah, I can't remember.

 

      24         Q.   Okay.  And he's with the law firm of

 

      25    O'Melveny & Myers?


 

                                                               125

 

 

       1         A.   That's correct, yeah.

 

       2         Q.   Okay.  Were there other lawyers at O'Melveny

 

       3    & Myers that you worked with?

 

       4         A.   The two, three other guy, and some doesn't

 

       5    stay very long; some stay long.  I don't know.

 

       6         Q.   Do you remember any of them?

 

       7         A.   I know there was a one woman called Tina Hua

 

       8    H-U-A.  She did not stay very long.  And there's

 

       9    another guy call Myer, M-Y-E-R.  How you spell Myer?

 

      10         Q.   From that same law firm of O'Melveny & Myers?

 

      11         A.   Yeah, yeah.  How do you spell.  I don't know

 

      12    how you spell?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  Spelled the same way.

 

      14         Q.   How did you find O'Melveny & Myers to

 

      15    represent you?  Did they contact you and offer their

 

      16    representation?

 

      17         A.   My daughter look -- I mean, my daughter, she

 

      18    go out look for the lawyer for me.  I -- I did not go

 

      19    contact, no.

 

      20         Q.   What's the name of your daughter?

 

      21         A.   Alberta Lee, A-L-B-E-R-T-A.  Alberta Lee.

 

      22         Q.   And during the time that you were in prison,

 

      23    did Alberta Lee visit you many times?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      25         Q.   She visited you frequently?


 

                                                               126

 

 

       1         A.   She visit me several time, but I -- I don't

 

       2    remember how many time.

 

       3         Q.   About how many times per week?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       5         A.   To my best memory, there's only one visit per

 

       6    week.

 

       7         Q.   And she was usually the person who came for

 

       8    that visit?

 

       9         A.   No.  My wife usually came, my wife.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  So during the time you were in prison,

 

      11    you were allowed one visit per week, or could you have

 

      12    more?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  You mean from family, Mr.

 

      14    Klayman?

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

      16         A.   From my family, there's only one visit per

 

      17    week.

 

      18         Q.   And did your wife Sylvia frequently come with

 

      19    Alberta?

 

      20         A.   Not very frequent, but my daughter came

 

      21    several time.  I don't remember how many time.  She

 

      22    come several time.

 

      23         Q.   How long were you in prison?

 

      24         A.   I -- I was in prison for nine month.

 

      25         Q.   Okay.  So about how many visits did you have


 

                                                               127

 

 

       1    from your family during that time?

 

       2         A.   Well, see one month has four weeks, that's

 

       3    about 36 week.

 

       4         Q.   Thirty-six visits?

 

       5         A.   Thirty-six visit, maybe.

 

       6         Q.   Were you allowed to speak with your family by

 

       7    phone while you were in prison?

 

       8         A.   To my best memory, for the first month or so,

 

       9    I have a hard time to make a phone call to anybody. 

 

      10    Then later, they said I can make a phone call to my

 

      11    family two -- twice a day -- I mean, twice a week, but

 

      12    I don't remember exactly.  Like one was like a morning

 

      13    and the other one was like a afternoon.  But each time,

 

      14    I only allowed to make a phone call for no more than 15

 

      15    minutes to my -- to my family.

 

      16         Q.   So you could have two phone calls a week to

 

      17    your family?

 

      18         A.   They say that, but in the reality, it's

 

      19    almost better -- I mean to jail, because I have to call

 

      20    the guard in my jail, tell him, say, "I like to make a

 

      21    phone call tomorrow."  And the guard has to call the

 

      22    control center, where there is another guard, tell him,

 

      23    "Wen Ho Lee like to make a phone call tomorrow." And

 

      24    then that control center tower, has to call the

 

      25    administrator.  I remember the first guy is like


 

                                                               128

 

 

       1    Garcia, Marvin Garcia.  And then later was a lady.  I

 

       2    don't remember her name.  And so this is one, two,

 

       3    three phone call.  They have to make three phone call

 

       4    and make sure all those three people available, then

 

       5    the phone will go through.  And then the lady will come

 

       6    to set up the phone tomorrow.

 

       7         Q.   I don't care about the procedure, just that

 

       8    you can do it. 

 

       9         A.   But I'm trying to tell you, it was so

 

      10    difficult, many, many time when the control people

 

      11    called administrator and she's not in or he's not in

 

      12    today, and then I don't have chance.  So through all

 

      13    nine months, I probably make no more than -- I don't

 

      14    remember -- maybe three or four phone call, and that's

 

      15    it.  And then I give up, because so difficult.

 

      16         Q.   But when you met with your family, did you

 

      17    sometimes give them things that you had written down?

 

      18         A.   The first time I wrote something, I want to

 

      19    talk to my family, because I -- I cannot remember what

 

      20    I want to talk to them, so I wrote on a piece paper,

 

      21    and the FBI make a Xerox copy of it.  And that happen

 

      22    maybe two time or three time, I don't remember.  But

 

      23    after that, I don't write anything.  I just go to see

 

      24    and talk.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  And, Mr. Klayman, just for the


 

                                                               129

 

 

       1    record, some of your questions now may overlap or

 

       2    implicate spousal and marital communications

 

       3    privilege.  I'm not going to direct the client not to

 

       4    answer, but I just would note for the record that

 

       5    communications between Mrs. Lee and her husband are

 

       6    protected by spousal marital privileges.  But, again,

 

       7    I'm going to permit questioning in this area to the

 

       8    extent I think it is appropriate. 

 

       9              So you may answer the question, Dr. Lee.

 

      10         Q.   Did your wife sometimes come with legal

 

      11    documents to show you?  Your wife or your daughter, did

 

      12    they sometimes show you legal documents from the

 

      13    lawyers?

 

      14         A.   To my best memory, there's only one time my

 

      15    son come, and he show me his master degree thesis on

 

      16    bioengineering, the thesis, and he open up his thesis, 

 

      17    I look at the mathematical equation, and that's the

 

      18    only time I remember.

 

      19         Q.   And what's your son's name?

 

      20         A.   My son's name Chung, C-H-U-N-G.

 

      21         Q.   Chung Lee?

 

      22         A.   Yes, that's the -- that's the only time I

 

      23    remember.

 

      24         Q.   In addition to the lawyers at O'Melveny &

 

      25    Myers, did you have other lawyers that represented you


 

                                                               130

 

 

       1    during the criminal proceeding, such as Mr. Sun, Mr.

 

       2    Brian Sun?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  You're asking about for the

 

       4    criminal proceeding, Mr. Klayman?

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

       6         A.   I know John Cline.  He sit there.

 

       7         Q.   John Cline?

 

       8         A.   Yeah, his office has several people represent

 

       9    me.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  Who, in addition to Mr. Cline, from

 

      11    his office represented you?

 

      12         A.   I know Nancy Hollander, H-O-L-L-A-N-D-E-R.

 

      13         Q.   Who else?

 

      14         A.   And there is a lady K.C. Maxwell, maybe.

 

      15         Q.   Okay.  Anyone else?

 

      16         A.   That's -- to my best knowledge, that's all I

 

      17    know.

 

      18         Q.   What about the law firm of O'Neill, Lysaght,

 

      19    L-Y-S-A-G-H-T, if I'm pronoucing that correctly, & Sun. 

 

      20    Did it represent you?

 

      21              MR. SUN:  In the criminal proceedings?

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

      23         A.   To my best knowledge, no.

 

      24         Q.   Did that law firm represent you in any

 

      25    respect?


 

                                                               131

 

 

       1         A.   Well, he represent me on -- on this case.

 

       2         Q.   The one that you're here on today?

 

       3         A.   Yes.  And I think they also represent me on

 

       4    the civil suit, because of illegal leak or something.

 

       5         Q.   This is a civil case over alleged violations

 

       6    of your privacy rights?

 

       7         A.   Something like that, yes.

 

       8         Q.   But all your lawyers conferred with each

 

       9    other with regard to all matters, correct?

 

      10         A.   I don't know about that.  Personally, I don't

 

      11    have any idea.

 

      12         Q.   Did any of your lawyers work with public

 

      13    relations firms?

 

      14         A.   I don't know.

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Objection, to the extend that any

 

      16    of that calls for divulging privileged information.

 

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  How is that privileged?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  I'm just saying to the extent that

 

      19    it might involve divulging confidential communications,

 

      20    I object.  I've not instructed him not to answer.

 

      21         A.   I don't know.

 

      22         Q.   You are aware that your lawyers had contact

 

      23    with the courts concerning you, correct?

 

      24         A.   You mean the courthouse here?

 

      25         Q.   Yes, and other courts.


 

                                                               132

 

 

       1         A.   Like at Judge Parker court?

 

       2         Q.   Yes.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       4         A.   Say your question again.

 

       5         Q.   You are aware that your lawyers were in

 

       6    contact with courts in defending you and bringing

 

       7    lawsuits for you?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Same objection.

 

       9         Q.   You're aware of that?

 

      10         A.   They, you know, represent me and sort of

 

      11    defense me.  That part I know, yes.

 

      12         Q.   So the answer is yes?

 

      13         A.   Yes.  Well --

 

      14         Q.   And you are aware that your lawyers were in

 

      15    contact with the media concerning what was happening to

 

      16    you?

 

      17         A.   That part, I don't know.  To my best

 

      18    knowledge, I don't know.

 

      19         Q.   You don't know one way or the other?

 

      20         A.   I -- I don't know whether they contact or not.

 

      21         Q.   You're aware that your lawyers sometimes talk

 

      22    to reporters about you, are you not?

 

      23         A.   It's a very possible that sometime they talk

 

      24    to, but I don't know for sure.

 

      25         Q.   In fact, your lawyers told you that they


 

                                                               133

 

 

       1    talked to reporters about you sometimes?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objections, privileged, instruct

 

       3    him not to answer.

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       5         Q.   You are aware that your lawyers talked to the

 

       6    media about allegations that you were being singled out

 

       7    because of your ethnic heritage as Chinese, correct?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.  Also

 

       9    instruct him not to answer to the extent it implicates

 

      10    any communications between counsel and Dr. Lee.

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      12         Q.   You are aware that your lawyers talked to the

 

      13    media about allegations that you, Wen Ho Lee, were

 

      14    being singled out because you were Chinese, correct?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      16         A.   I'm not aware of what you just said.

 

      17         Q.   So if your lawyers talked to the media about

 

      18    allegations that you were being singled out because you

 

      19    are Chinese, those discussions would have been

 

      20    unauthorized by you, correct?

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form, 

 

      22    argumentative, improper hypothetical. 

 

      23              You can answer it if you understand the

 

      24    question, Dr. Lee.

 

      25         A.   I don't quite understand your question.


 

                                                               134

 

 

       1         Q.   If your lawyers talked to reporters in the

 

       2    media and told those reporters that you were being

 

       3    investigated and prosecuted because you were Chinese,

 

       4    that was the reason, you didn't authorize that, did

 

       5    you?

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Same objection.

 

       7              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  If you understand the question.  As

 

       9    long as you don't divulge anything from the

 

      10    attorney/client privilege, you can answer the question,

 

      11    Dr. Lee.

 

      12         A.   Let me repeat.  You say if my lawyer told the

 

      13    reporter, right?

 

      14         Q.   Um-hmm.

 

      15         A.   That part, I don't know.  To my best memory,

 

      16    I don't remember.

 

      17         Q.   All right.  But --

 

      18         A.   If my lawyer told any media about anything, I

 

      19    don't remember.  So there's no sense to go the second

 

      20    part.

 

      21         Q.   Well, I get to ask the questions.  And the

 

      22    question is, if your lawyers did talk to the media and

 

      23    told the media that you were being investigated and

 

      24    then prosecuted because you're Chinese, you didn't

 

      25    approve of that, did you?  You would not have approved


 

                                                               135

 

 

       1    of that?

 

       2         A.   My answer is, I don't know whether my lawyer

 

       3    talk to the media about what you said in the second

 

       4    part.  Therefore, I cannot answer the whole thing,

 

       5    because I don't know the first part.  The first part is

 

       6    questionable to me, and I cannot take that part as true

 

       7    and then answer the second part.

 

       8         Q.   Did you ever tell your lawyers to talk to the

 

       9    media and tell the media that you were being

 

      10    investigated and prosecuted because you're Chinese?

 

      11              MR. SUN:  Objection.  Instruct the witness

 

      12    not to answer.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      14         Q.   How many times did you meet with your lawyers

 

      15    each week while you were in prison?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.

 

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  We have a standing stipulation

 

      18    on that, so please don't interrupt.

 

      19         A.   To -- to my best memory, I believe I meet

 

      20    with my lawyer once a week and maybe one hour a week or

 

      21    maybe a little more than one hour a week.  That's to my

 

      22    best memory.  And it's only either John Cline or Nancy

 

      23    Hollander.

 

      24         Q.   During the time that you were in prison, did

 

      25    you also talk by telephone with Brian Sun?


 

                                                               136

 

 

       1         A.   To my best memory, I don't believe I ever

 

       2    talk to Brian Sun when I was in jail.  I don't -- I

 

       3    don't believe so.  I cannot remember.

 

       4         Q.   Did you talk to Brian Sun before you went to

 

       5    jail?

 

       6         A.   I saw to Brian Sun before I went to jail,

 

       7    yes.

 

       8         Q.   Why did you see him?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  To the extent it involves you

 

      10    divulging any attorney/client communications, Dr. Lee,

 

      11    don't answer the question.  But if you can answer it

 

      12    without doing that, you may do so.

 

      13         A.   I cannot answer the question.

 

      14         Q.   Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

 

      15    ever tell you that you should use as a defense that you

 

      16    were being singled out because you're Chinese?

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Objection, attorney/client

 

      18    privilege.  Instruct the witness not to answer.

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      20         Q.   Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

 

      21    ever tell you that they were going to put forward this

 

      22    defense to the media?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  Same objection.  Instruct the

 

      24    witness not to answer.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.


 

                                                               137

 

 

       1         Q.   Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

 

       2    ever tell you that they were going to defend you by

 

       3    branding my client Notra Trulock a racist?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Same instruction.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       6         Q.   Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

 

       7    ever tell you that they were going to defend you, Wen

 

       8    Ho Lee, by branding our client Notra Trulock a racist

 

       9    and alleging that he singled you out for investigation?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Instruction -- same instruction.

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      12         Q.   Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

 

      13    ever tell you that they intended to destroy Notra

 

      14    Trulock's reputation and thereby defend you?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Same instruction to the witness. 

 

      16    Also, the question is argumentative.

 

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      18         Q.   How many times have you spoken to Brian Sun

 

      19    since you got to know him?  Just generally.

 

      20              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Yeah, you can -- you can answer the

 

      22    question.

 

      23         A.   To my best memory, I -- I talk to Brian Sun

 

      24    very, very little.  Not very often.

 

      25         Q.   About how many times?


 

                                                               138

 

 

       1         A.   I don't remember how many times, but it's

 

       2    very small number.

 

       3         Q.   You're aware that Brian Sun represents other

 

       4    Chinese clients who have been involved in criminal

 

       5    investigations?

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Objection, relevance.  You can

 

       7    answer the question, though.

 

       8         A.   I don't know what kind of criminal -- are you

 

       9    say criminal what?

 

      10         Q.   Investigations.

 

      11         A.   -- investigate.  I don't know what kind of

 

      12    criminal investigation Brian Sun is involved.  I don't

 

      13    know.

 

      14         Q.   Are you aware that he represents other

 

      15    Chinese?  Correct?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Same objection.

 

      17         Q.   Other than you.

 

      18         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

      19         Q.   You don't know?

 

      20         A.   Uh-huh.

 

      21         Q.   Are you aware --

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Is there some relevance to that -- 

 

      23    this line of questioning, Mr. Klayman?

 

      24         Q.   Are you aware that Brian Sun as a reputation

 

      25    in the legal community of using race-based defenses to


 

                                                               139

 

 

       1    defend his clients?

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Objection.  I'm going to

 

       3    instruct --

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Is that -- is that funny?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  I'm going to instruct the witness

 

       6    not to answer the question --

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Please don't interrupt.

 

       8              MR. SUN:  -- because I don't think it has

 

       9    anything to do with the subject matter of this

 

      10    lawsuit.  If you want to lay a proper foundation for

 

      11    why you think this line of questioning is pertinent,

 

      12    I'll be happy to entertain it, Mr. Klayman.  I just

 

      13    don't see the relevance to the issues raised in this

 

      14    lawsuit.

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's been in pleadings, it's

 

      16    been in oral arguments, it's out there Mr. Sun.  It's

 

      17    been part of this case.  You can answer the question.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  I'm objecting not only as to form,

 

      19    but also because I think that this question is not

 

      20    designed to lead to the admissibility of evidence or to

 

      21    the discovery of admissible evidence, and, therefore,

 

      22    I'm going to instruct Dr. Lee not to answer the

 

      23    question --

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      25              MR. SUN:  -- in that form.


 

                                                               140

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       2         Q.   Are you aware that Mr. Sun has been called

 

       3    the Johnny Cochran of the Asian Bar Association?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Objection, for the same reasons I

 

       5    just stated.  And, you know, I don't know if this is

 

       6    accurate or not, but I've been told it's you, Mr.

 

       7    Klayman, who has come up with that statement.  But

 

       8    whether it's true or not, I'm instructing my client not

 

       9    to answer unless you can lay a better foundation for

 

      10    why this line of inquiry is even relevant to this

 

      11    litigation at hand.

 

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's not me, Mr. Sun, that's

 

      13    come up with that.

 

      14         Q.   Answer the question.

 

      15              MR. SUN:  I've instructed him not to answer.

 

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  All right.  Certify it.

 

      17         Q.   You are aware that an integral part of your

 

      18    legal defense in the criminal case brought against you

 

      19    by the federal government was that you were being

 

      20    singled out because you're Chinese?

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form, asked and

 

      22    answered.     

 

      23              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Yes, you may.

 

      25         A.   Please repeat your question.


 

                                                               141

 

 

       1         Q.   No, I'll withdraw the question.  You --

 

       2    during the time you were in prison, you were aware that

 

       3    your family was assisting the lawyers to defend you?

 

       4         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

       5         Q.   You know nothing about that?

 

       6         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

       7         Q.   What do you mean when you say to your best

 

       8    knowledge, you don't know?  Either you have knowledge

 

       9    or you don't know.  Which is it?

 

      10         A.   I mean, to my best memory -- I'm trying to

 

      11    say to my best memory, I don't know whether my family

 

      12    has assisted them or not.  I don't know.

 

      13         Q.   Okay.

 

      14         A.   Does that answer your question?

 

      15         Q.   Your family did assist you in helping to

 

      16    defend you --

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Objection.

 

      18         Q.   -- did it not?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      20         A.   To my best memory and best judgment, I don't

 

      21    believe so.

 

      22         Q.   Alberta helped find the lawyers which

 

      23    defended you in the criminal proceeding.

 

      24         A.   That's correct.

 

      25         Q.   Okay.  So isn't that assistance?


 

                                                               142

 

 

       1         A.   Is that -- is that what you mean,

 

       2    "assistant," then?  What you --

 

       3         Q.   Well, you don't know what the word

 

       4    "assistance" means?

 

       5         A.   Not quite your definition, because I don't --

 

       6         Q.   In 37 years of being in this country, you

 

       7    don't know what the word "assistance" means?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Objection, instruct the witness not

 

       9    to answer.  That's badgering the witness.

 

      10         Q.   Do you know what the word "assistance"

 

      11    means?  Did you learn that in 37 years of being here?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative.

 

      13         Q.   Do you know what the word "assistance" means?

 

      14         A.   I know what that mean to my best knowledge.

 

      15         Q.   What does "assistance" mean?

 

      16         A.   To help somebody else.

 

      17         Q.   Isn't that -- isn't that the word I used, 

 

      18    did your family help you in defense of your case, and

 

      19    you said no?  That's what you testified to, correct?

 

      20         A.   I didn't say that.  You twisted words.  I

 

      21    didn't say that.  I'm saying -- you asked me when my

 

      22    family come to the jail to see me, are they assisting

 

      23    me to -- to the lawyers.  Well, my impression was that

 

      24    my -- my family member talk to the lawyer and tell them

 

      25    to, you know, help me on my case.  Is that -- is that


 

                                                               143

 

 

       1    what you mean?  That's my understanding.  That's why. 

 

       2    I want to make sure I understand your question first. 

 

       3    And I tell you, I don't know.  I don't know.

 

       4         Q.   I think the record speaks for itself.  What

 

       5    role did Alberta play in finding your lawyers?

 

       6         A.   I told you already.  She find a lawyer

 

       7    because she speak English better than me.  I cannot --

 

       8    I don't know even where to find a lawyer.  She said

 

       9    she -- she know how to find, so she found a lawyer.

 

      10         Q.   And Alberto would confer with those lawyers

 

      11    in coming up with strategy, correct, to defend you?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.  He's already

 

      13    answered that question.

 

      14         Q.   Alberta would confer with your lawyers in

 

      15    coming up with a strategy to defend you, correct?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Asked and answered.

 

      17              THE WITNESS:  Can I answer?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Yeah, if you understand it.

 

      19         A.   I don't know.

 

      20         Q.   You sometimes gave Alberta instructions on

 

      21    how to communicate with your lawyers, did you not?

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Objection.  At what time frame are

 

      23    you talking about?

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  While he was under indictment.

 

      25         A.   To my best memory, I don't believe I give any


 

                                                               144

 

 

       1    instruction to Alberta.  I don't remember.

 

       2         Q.   Alberta sometimes discussed what was going on

 

       3    in defending you, did she not, what was happening, what

 

       4    your lawyers were doing?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Following his arrest?

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

       7         A.   You mean when I was in jail?  Is that what

 

       8    you mean?

 

       9         Q.   Yes.

 

      10         A.   To my best memory, I don't believe Alberta

 

      11    talk to me about the case or the defense, you know,

 

      12    what you just ask.  I don't believe so.

 

      13         Q.   Did any of your other family members ever

 

      14    talk to you about the case or the defense?

 

      15         A.   To my best memory, the answer is no.

 

      16         Q.   Did Alberta ever have contact with an

 

      17    individual by the name of Cecilia Chang about you?

 

      18         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

      19         Q.   Do you know who Cecilia Chang is?

 

      20         A.   I know who she is, yes.

 

      21         Q.   How did you -- how did you come to know who

 

      22    she is?

 

      23         A.   I know her for a long time.

 

      24         Q.   When did you first meet Cecilia Chang?

 

      25         A.   I don't remember when, but it must be more


 

                                                               145

 

 

       1    than 15 years ago, but I don't remember when.

 

       2         Q.   Under what circumstances did you meet her?

 

       3         A.   I don't remember either.

 

       4         Q.   She's a very close friend, is she not?

 

       5         A.   What do you mean "close friend"?  Your

 

       6    definition.  Like what?

 

       7         Q.   What do you mean by "close friend"?

 

       8         A.   Well, I like to hear your definition first.

 

       9         Q.   Do you know what a "friend" is?

 

      10         A.   I know -- yes, friend.

 

      11         Q.   Okay.  Is she a good friend --

 

      12         A.   No, no --

 

      13         Q.   -- Cecilia Chang?

 

      14         A.   -- what is your definition of friend.  Tell

 

      15    me first.  What do you mean, "friend"?

 

      16         Q.   I'm not being deposed.  Do you know what a

 

      17    friend is?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  The witness is trying to get a

 

      19    clarification.

 

      20         A.   I'm trying to understand your English,

 

      21    because I'm not --

 

      22         Q.   You don't know what a friend is?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  He wants to get your understanding

 

      24    and definition of what you --

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, I took -- I took "close"


 

                                                               146

 

 

       1    out of it, and there's no adjective.

 

       2         Q.   Do you know what a friend is?

 

       3         A.   Well, tell me your definition of "friend."

 

       4         Q.   You don't know what a friend is?

 

       5         A.   I want to hear the definition -- your

 

       6    definition of friend.

 

       7         Q.   No, I'm asking you.  What's your definition

 

       8    of a friend?

 

       9         A.   Well, my definition of friend is this: 

 

      10    Suppose somebody want to kill you, and he said he will

 

      11    go fight him for you, and he doesn't care if that guy

 

      12    would kill him.  Then he's your friend.

 

      13         Q.   Under your definition, is Cecilia Chang your

 

      14    friend?

 

      15         A.   Again, I want to know your definition.

 

      16         Q.   No, I'm going by your definition.  I'm not

 

      17    being deposed Mr. -- Dr. Lee.  Under your definition of

 

      18    "friend," is Cecilia Chang your friend?

 

      19         A.   You see, I have to understand your question. 

 

      20    I have to understand --

 

      21         Q.   I'm using your answer.  Look, you don't tell

 

      22    me what to do.  I'm asking the questions.

 

      23              MR. SUN:  All right.  I'm going to instruct

 

      24    the witness not to answer.  Mr. Klayman, for the

 

      25    record, is pointing his finger at Dr. Lee, trying to


 

                                                               147

 

 

       1    intimidate and badger him, and this has got to stop.

 

       2              So we either do a couple of things, Mr.

 

       3    Klayman:  Either you knock it off, or we all take a

 

       4    break here, and everybody cools off and we try to

 

       5    revisit this area.  Okay?

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm using his definition I'm

 

       7    cool.  I'm letting him use his definition.

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Then you stop pointing your finger

 

       9    at Dr. Lee.

 

      10              MR. KLAYMAN:  I have a pen in my hand.  I'm

 

      11    not pointing my finger at anybody. 

 

      12              MR. SUN:  You were pointing your pen right at

 

      13    him in a threatening manner, and that's going to stop

 

      14    it.  Got it?

 

      15              MR. KLAYMAN:  That is not a threatening

 

      16    manner, and I --

 

      17              MR. SUN:  You're pointing it at me now.

 

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  That's the way I communicate.

 

      19    I have a pen in my hand.  Go ahead, put the camera on

 

      20    it, the pen in my hand.

 

      21              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  It's on, sir.

 

      22              MR. KLAYMAN:  Okay.

 

      23              MR. SUN:  The record will speak for itself.

 

      24              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let's not play games.  Let's

 

      25    not play games.


 

                                                               148

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Quit pointing, Mr. Klayman.  Just

 

       2    ask your question.

 

       3         Q.   Dr. Lee, under your definition of "friend,"

 

       4    is Cecilia Chang a friend?

 

       5              MR. SUN:  You can answer that question, Dr.

 

       6    Lee, if you understand it.

 

       7         A.   The example I just told you, you know,

 

       8    between you -- him, this case, it's never happen to me

 

       9    between -- it never happened between Cecilia Chang and

 

      10    me.  However I would consider she is a friend.

 

      11         Q.   And she's a good friend?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.  What do you

 

      13    mean by "good"?

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let him -- let him play that

 

      15    game, Mr. Sun.  That's not your province.

 

      16              MR. SUN:  I'm entitled to make comment on

 

      17    your questions.  But you may answer the question.

 

      18         Q.   Do you know what the word "good" means?

 

      19         A.   I know what that means, good, yes.

 

      20         Q.   And what does "good" mean?

 

      21         A.   But -- again, it's a scale.  You know, you

 

      22    get a scale 1 to 10.  I like to know which scale you're

 

      23    talking about, 10 or 1.  When you say "good friend," a

 

      24    Scale 1 can be good friend.

 

      25              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let the record reflect this how


 

                                                               149

 

 

       1    you run the clock out in a deposition.  So we'll be

 

       2    moving for appropriate relief.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Do you have a question pending?

 

       4              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

       5              MR. SUN:  What is it?

 

       6         Q.   What does the word "good" mean to you?

 

       7         A.   Hmm?

 

       8         Q.   What does the word "good" mean to you?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  In the context of the word

 

      10    "friend"?

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

      12              MR. SUN:  If you can answer the question, you

 

      13    may; if you don't understand it, tell him.

 

      14         A.   The definition of "good friend" sometime is

 

      15    very vague.  I can tell you example.  I work at Los

 

      16    Alamos for twenty years.  I know many, many people,

 

      17    many scientists, and I consider them as my good friend,

 

      18    because we saw each other every day, and, you know, we

 

      19    eat together.  Good friend.  But when I was indicted,

 

      20    most of them turn their back to me, and some of them

 

      21    say bad thing about me.  So now I'm lost.  I say a good

 

      22    friend, sometime the definition is very vague.  Depend

 

      23    on situation.  Depend on timing.  That's all I can tell

 

      24    you.

 

      25         Q.   Did Cecilia Chang ever turn her back on you?


 

                                                               150

 

 

       1         A.   So far, not yet.

 

       2         Q.   Did she ever say bad things about you?

 

       3         A.   I don't know.  Not --

 

       4         Q.   So she's a good friend, correct?

 

       5         A.   That part, I don't know.  So far, I consider

 

       6    that she's a good friend.

 

       7         Q.   Okay.  Why couldn't you just say that she's a

 

       8    good friend?  Why did we have to go through all that?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Objection, you don't have to

 

      10    answer that question.  Move on.

 

      11         Q.   Are you trying to run the clock out, Dr. Lee?

 

      12         A.   No.

 

      13              MR. SUN:  You don't have to answer that

 

      14    question.

 

      15         Q.   You are aware that Cecilia Chang assisted you

 

      16    with matters related to your case that was brought

 

      17    against you by the Government, are you not?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      19         A.   To my best knowledge, I don't know.

 

      20         Q.   You have no knowledge of anything she did to

 

      21    try to help you?

 

      22         A.   In what time frame?  When --

 

      23         Q.   Anytime, anytime.  Did she ever do anything

 

      24    to try to help you with regard to the Government's

 

      25    investigation of you or prosecution of you over


 

                                                               151

 

 

       1    allegations of breach of national security regulations?

 

       2         A.   I know there are many, many Chinese people

 

       3    has -- what do you call that? -- variety, a parade or

 

       4    something, get together and go to the public to say

 

       5    something about my treatment by the Government.  I know

 

       6    that -- protest, yeah, that's the word I'm -- that many

 

       7    Chinese people or maybe -- American people, too.  I

 

       8    mean, non-Oriental, non-Chinese people, they do that,

 

       9    too.  And I believe Cecilia Chang may be one of them.

 

      10         Q.   During the time that you were under

 

      11    investigation and then prosecution by the Government,

 

      12    did you have any conversations with Cecilia Chang?

 

      13         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      14         Q.   During the time that you were under

 

      15    investigation and then prosecution by the Government

 

      16    over the alleged breach of national security, did you

 

      17    ever have any conversations with Cecilia Chang?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  I object as to form.  There could

 

      19    be some difference of opinion, Mr. Klayman, about when

 

      20    Mr. -- Dr. Lee first became under investigation.  If

 

      21    you're focusing on when he first learned he was under

 

      22    investigation, that's one time frame.  It's my

 

      23    understanding that the Government may have commenced an

 

      24    investigation that predated that time frame.  So I

 

      25    think it's important for the record you clarify.


 

                                                               152

 

 

       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  No, I'll ask the question the

 

       2    way I want to ask it.

 

       3         A.   Okay.  You should specify from, say, 1940 or

 

       4    1980 or 1990 to nineteen what, you know, because that

 

       5    will make me clear.  I will answer your question.  Just

 

       6    tell me what time period you imply.

 

       7         Q.   Well, let's -- let's start with the last

 

       8    three years.  Have you had any conversations with

 

       9    Cecilia Chang in the last three years from today?

 

      10         A.    I -- I don't remember do I have any

 

      11    conversation with her today.  I mean, for last two

 

      12    years, you said?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  He said three years.

 

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Three.

 

      15              MR. SUN:  From 1998 forward, have you had any

 

      16    conversations with Cecilia Chang?

 

      17         A.   There's only one conversation I can remember

 

      18    I have a conversation with her.  This is the only one I

 

      19    remember.  That must be somewhere towards December of

 

      20    2000.  I was -- I was out of jail.  My case -- I mean,

 

      21    I'm not in jail.  I'm out.  I get out in September

 

      22    13th, 2000, yes.  And sometime in December 2000, she --

 

      23    I believe she -- she said they going to have a birthday

 

      24    party for me, and she -- she asked me to go there for

 

      25    the birthday party.  That's only conversation I ever


 

                                                               153

 

 

       1    had with her for last two years, to my best memory.

 

       2         Q.   Three years.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Three years.

 

       4         Q.   The question was three years.

 

       5         A.   Three years.  You mean, like a 2 --

 

       6              MR. SUN:  1998 forward.

 

       7         A.   1998, 1999, 2000.

 

       8              MR. SUN:  And up to the present.

 

       9         A.   That's four years.  Almost four years.

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Whatever.  Three years going back

 

      11    from today.

 

      12         A.   Okay.  Let me ask you, when you say the about

 

      13    two years, you mean --

 

      14         Q.   I said three.

 

      15         A.   Three, you mean this year?  Today is --

 

      16         Q.   Today is the 10th of October --

 

      17         A.   -- October, yeah.

 

      18         Q.   -- 2001, so go back to the 10th of October --

 

      19         A.   Okay.

 

      20         Q.   -- 1998.  From the 10th of October 1998 up to

 

      21    the present, did you have any conversations or

 

      22    communications of any kind with Cecilia Chang?

 

      23         A.   To my best memory, that conversation with

 

      24    Cecilia Chang happened sometime in December 2000, and

 

      25    that's probably the only one I had, to my best memory.


 

                                                               154

 

 

       1         Q.   Did you ever have any communications with her

 

       2    through writing or e-mail, or anything like that, for

 

       3    the last three years?

 

       4         A.   To my best memory, the answer is no.

 

       5         Q.   Is the answer no, or are you saying you don't

 

       6    remember?

 

       7         A.   I told you, to my best memory, I don't

 

       8    remember I have any communication in -- what you say?

 

       9    -- e-mail?

 

      10         Q.   Any means.  Any method of communication.

 

      11         A.   Well, I already told you I talk to her during

 

      12    December 2000 because she -- she want -- she invite me

 

      13    to the birthday party.  That's the one I remember.

 

      14         Q.   Is Cecilia Chang friends with your wife and

 

      15    daughter?

 

      16         A.   She -- she's a friend of my wife.

 

      17         Q.   And your wife's name is Sylvia, correct?

 

      18         A.   Yes, Sylvia.  And I don't know whether she's

 

      19    a friend of my daughter.  I don't know.

 

      20         Q.   Now, your wife did tell you that Cecilia

 

      21    Chang was trying to help you with your defense,

 

      22    correct?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  I'm sorry, can you repeat the

 

      24    question?  Did you say --

 

      25         Q.   Your wife, Sylvia, did tell you, in the last


 

                                                               155

 

 

       1    three years, that Cecilia Chang was trying to help you

 

       2    with your defense?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Objection, spousal/marital

 

       4    communications.  Instruct the client not to answer.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       6         Q.   You are aware that Cecilia Chang had contact

 

       7    with your wife, Sylvia, and -- and other family members

 

       8    to try to help you in your defense, correct?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      10         A.   Would you please repeat?

 

      11         Q.   You are aware that members of your family had

 

      12    contact with Cecilia Chang to help you with your

 

      13    defense against the Government case against you?

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Same objection.

 

      15         A.   No.

 

      16         Q.   You are aware that Cecilia Chang had contact

 

      17    with your lawyers to help you with your defense in the

 

      18    Government case against you?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      20         A.   No.

 

      21         Q.   You are aware that Cecilia Chang had an

 

      22    Internet site which she named wenholee.org, correct?

 

      23         A.   No.

 

      24         Q.   Do you allow other people to use your name

 

      25    without your permission?


 

                                                               156

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       2         Q.   Your name is Wen Ho Lee, is it not?

 

       3         A.   That's correct.

 

       4         Q.   Do you let other -- is it your practice to

 

       5    allow other people to use your name without your

 

       6    permission?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       8              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  If you understand the question,

 

      10    yes, you may.

 

      11         A.   If somebody ask me, say, "Wen Ho Lee, I like

 

      12    to use your name for some purpose," I have to discuss

 

      13    with him or her about the permission.  But if somebody

 

      14    just go out to put in my name in, you know, any street,

 

      15    I don't know.  So -- I don't -- I mean, this guy put my

 

      16    name on the street without letting me know, he can do

 

      17    that or she can do that, but I don't know.  And I don't

 

      18    have any objection.  I cannot objection because I

 

      19    don't know.

 

      20         Q.   But you've never ever allowed anyone to use

 

      21    your name without your permission, have you?

 

      22         A.   No, you didn't understand my question.

 

      23         Q.   No, my question is you've never ever allowed

 

      24    anyone to use your name without your permission?

 

      25         A.   I didn't say that.  I say if somebody want to


 

                                                               157

 

 

       1    use my name to do something else, he or she has to

 

       2    discuss with me first, and I have to agree.  I say,

 

       3    "Okay.  You go ahead and use."  And then he and she can

 

       4    do it.  Understand that?

 

       5         Q.   Right.  And --

 

       6         A.   And if he or she put my name in something

 

       7    else without let me know, I have no control.  I just

 

       8    have no control.

 

       9         Q.   Have you ever asked Cecilia Chang to not use

 

      10    your name in an Internet Web site?

 

      11         A.   Say again.  I haven't --

 

      12         Q.   Have you ever told Cecilia Chang to stop

 

      13    using your name for her Web site?

 

      14         A.   That two-part.  I want to answer your

 

      15    question.  First, I don't know whether she has a Web

 

      16    site or not.  I don't know.  Second, I -- she never ask

 

      17    me about my name on Web site or whatever, so I don't

 

      18    know.  And I don't know whether she has a Web site or

 

      19    not.  I don't know.

 

      20         Q.   If you were to learn that she was using your

 

      21    name on an Internet Web site to raise money, would you

 

      22    let her do that?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      24         A.   The question you ask is never happen between

 

      25    me and the Cecilia Chang, so I don't know how to answer


 

                                                               158

 

 

       1    your question.  It's never happen.

 

       2         Q.   Assume for purposes of the question that it

 

       3    happened, that Cecilia Chang has an Internet Web site

 

       4    wenholee.org.  Would you allow her to use your name, to

 

       5    raise money, on that Web site?

 

       6              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       7         A.   Two part.  First, I don't know Cecilia Chang

 

       8    has a Web site called wenholee.org.  I don't know about

 

       9    that.  The second thing, I don't know the purpose of

 

      10    that wenholee.org.  I cannot answer your question.

 

      11         Q.   Assume -- assume for purposes of this

 

      12    question that Cecilia Chang does have a Web site, it's

 

      13    called wenholee.org, and that she raises money on that

 

      14    Web site.  If you knew that to be true, would you

 

      15    permit her to use your name?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.  And vague

 

      17    and ambiguous.

 

      18         A.   The question you asking me right now is never

 

      19    happen in my life; therefore, I don't know how to

 

      20    answer your question.

 

      21         Q.   So you're saying that you would let her use

 

      22    your name to raise money?

 

      23         A.   I didn't say that.  I said the question you

 

      24    ask me, whether Cecilia Chang -- she create a Web site,

 

      25    that part I don't know.  Whether she create a Web site


 

                                                               159

 

 

       1    or not, I don't know.  And then the second part, what

 

       2    does is Web site -- what's the purpose?  To raise money

 

       3    or what?  I don't know.

 

       4         Q.   All right.  I'm going to ask this question as

 

       5    many times as it takes to get an answer.  I'm very

 

       6    patient --

 

       7         A.   Um-hmm.   

 

       8         Q.   -- okay, so I'm going to keep asking it.

 

       9         A.   Good.

 

      10         Q.   And then I'm going to ask the Court to bring

 

      11    you back for another deposition if we don't get an

 

      12    answer soon.  If you knew for a fact that Cecilia Chang

 

      13    had a Web site called wenholee.org and she was using it

 

      14    to raise money, would you tell her to stop?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.  You have a

 

      16    time frame in mind?

 

      17         Q.   Anytime.

 

      18         A.   You ask me a question based on something I

 

      19    don't know, based on something never happen in my life;

 

      20    therefore, I don't know how to answer your question. 

 

      21    Is that clear?

 

      22         Q.   Is it permissible to use your name to raise

 

      23    money without your permission?  Is that okay with you?

 

      24         A.   I already told you twice, if somebody want to

 

      25    use my name to raise money or what, if he or she


 

                                                               160

 

 

       1    discuss with me, then I would either give permission or

 

       2    deny permission.  However, if he or she just go ahead,

 

       3    create something or do something without letting me

 

       4    know, it's not my control, and therefore I cannot say

 

       5    yes or no.

 

       6         Q.   You don't want people to do things unless you

 

       7    give your permission, do you?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       9              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Excuse me, Counselor, I'm

 

      10    getting about -- I'm sorry, I'm getting a thing off

 

      11    your telephone there.

 

      12              MR. KLAYMAN:  It'll stop.

 

      13              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you.  Sorry?

 

      14         A.   Please repeat.

 

      15         Q.   Unless you give your express permission, then

 

      16    it is not okay for someone to use your name and raise

 

      17    money with your name?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Same objection.   Answer the

 

      19    question, please.

 

      20         A.   Please repeat the question.

 

      21         Q.   Unless you give your permission for someone

 

      22    to use your name and use it to raise money, it's not

 

      23    okay with you?

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      25         A.   Let me answer this way:  If somebody use my


 

                                                               161

 

 

       1    name to raise money -- now, whether I will give him or

 

       2    give her permission, is that your question?  Do I give

 

       3    her permission or not give her permission?

 

       4         Q.   You know what my question is, don't you, Dr.

 

       5    Lee?

 

       6         A.   Not quite.

 

       7         Q.   No?  Do you want me to say it again?  I'll

 

       8    say it again.  I'll say it a hundred times more.

 

       9         A.   I will listen, yeah.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  If I give -- it's not permissible for

 

      11    you to allow someone to use your name to raise money

 

      12    unless you say it's okay --

 

      13         A.   That's not true --

 

      14         Q.   -- correct?

 

      15         A.   Well, let me tell you this:  I already told

 

      16    you, if somebody want to use my name to raise money or

 

      17    do something else, he or she has to discuss with me and

 

      18    say, "Wen Ho, I would like to use a name to raise some

 

      19    fund," or something else, "Are you okay with that?" 

 

      20    Then I will have the chance to say yes or no with him

 

      21    or she.  All right?

 

      22              Now, if somebody just go out on street and

 

      23    bring a can and put down "Wen Ho Lee," you know, "fund

 

      24    raise, would you like to put money in here," and

 

      25    walking on the Third Street here, without letting me


 

                                                               162

 

 

       1    know, and I have no control, then I don't know whether

 

       2    to say yes or no, because he's doing something I don't

 

       3    know.  Do you understand that?

 

       4         Q.   Yeah.  And my next question is -- new

 

       5    question --

 

       6         A.   Okay.

 

       7         Q.   -- that's not okay with you, is it?  It's not

 

       8    okay that someone uses your name when you don't know

 

       9    about it to raise money?

 

      10         A.   Depend on the purpose, if I know.  If I know

 

      11    this guy walking on the Third Street to collect money,

 

      12    without letting me know -- and suppose I walk on the

 

      13    Third Street and I say, "Gee, what this guy doing using

 

      14    my name to raise fund?"  I will go ask him, say, "Hey,

 

      15    what are you doing with this, my name?" 

 

      16              And then he may -- or she may explain to me

 

      17    say, "Oh, I'm going to use this money for 911

 

      18    disaster."  Then I say, "Okay.  That's good thing,"

 

      19    but --

 

      20         Q.   You are aware -- you are aware that Cecilia

 

      21    Chang used your name to raise money, are you not?

 

      22         A.   I don't know.

 

      23         Q.   Now, let's assume that she did that.

 

      24         A.   But --

 

      25         Q.   I'm telling you.  I'm the person that's


 

                                                               163

 

 

       1    telling you what happened with the use of your name. 

 

       2    Your name was used to raise money, is that okay with

 

       3    you --

 

       4              MR. SUN:  Is that okay for --

 

       5         Q.   -- by Cecilia Chang.

 

       6              MR. SUN:  He's asking you to assume that Ms.

 

       7    Chang raised money in your name.  And the question is,

 

       8    assuming that is the case, would that be acceptable to

 

       9    you or okay to you.

 

      10         A.   I will answer your question, but I want to

 

      11    make you understand that, first, I don't know Cecilia

 

      12    Chang has used my name to raise money.  Yes or no, I

 

      13    don't know.  Okay?  That part.  But today, suppose I

 

      14    know somebody want to use my name to raise the money to

 

      15    help me, my case, I would agree.  I would be -- say

 

      16    "Thank you."  I will tell him, "Thank you," yes.

 

      17         Q.   That's okay.  And if Ms. -- Ms. Cecilia Chang

 

      18    wanted to use her Internet site, "wenholee.org," to

 

      19    publish material stating that you were being

 

      20    investigated and prosecuted because you're Chinese,

 

      21    that's okay too?

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Objection, argumentative, outside

 

      23    -- objection as to form.

 

      24              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  If you understand the question, you


 

                                                               164

 

 

       1    can answer it.

 

       2         A.   I want to make it very clear, very, very

 

       3    clear, I don't know whether Cecilia Chang has a net --

 

       4    you know, the Web site.  I don't know about that.  I

 

       5    don't know whether she set up a Web site or not.  I

 

       6    don't know.  Okay?  I don't know.  Do you understand? 

 

       7    I don't know.

 

       8         Q.   I understand.

 

       9         A.   Okay.

 

      10         Q.   Now, do you understand that I'm telling you --

 

      11         A.   I'm telling you, I don't under- -- I don't

 

      12    know whether she set up a Web site or not.  That part,

 

      13    I don't know.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.  That's fine.

 

      15         A.   I was in jail.  I don't know.

 

      16         Q.   That's your testimony?

 

      17         A.   Um-hmm.

 

      18         Q.   I'm telling you, assume for purposes of

 

      19    answering the question that Cecilia Chang did have a

 

      20    Web site.  She named it "wenholee.org."  She used it to

 

      21    raise money for you, and she used it to publish

 

      22    materials saying that you were being singled out for

 

      23    investigation and prosecution because you're Chinese. 

 

      24    Would that be okay with you?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form, 


 

                                                               165

 

 

       1    argumentative. 

 

       2              Do you understand the question?

 

       3              THE WITNESS:  Not very well.

 

       4              MR. SUN:  All right.

 

       5         Q.   Well, during the time that you worked at Los

 

       6    Alamos, were you ever criticized in reviews?  You were

 

       7    reviewed from time to time on the basis of your work

 

       8    performance, correct?

 

       9         A.   Yes.

 

      10         Q.   Was there ever any criticism by your

 

      11    supervisors that you didn't understand English?

 

      12         A.   To my best memory, that happen before, yes.

 

      13         Q.   And when did that happen?

 

      14         A.   I don't remember when.  But I barely remember

 

      15    that happen.

 

      16         Q.   Who criticized you?

 

      17         A.   I don't remember who did, no.

 

      18         Q.   Did they say -- did that criticism say that

 

      19    you didn't -- that you had a hard time understanding

 

      20    what people were saying?

 

      21         A.   Some people criticize me, my English no good,

 

      22    and sometimes difficult to communicate.

 

      23         Q.   Did they say that you didn't understand what

 

      24    they were saying?  Did they criticize you for not

 

      25    understanding what they were saying?


 

                                                               166

 

 

       1         A.   I don't remember the detail, no.

 

       2         Q.   Okay.  I'll show you what I'll ask the court

 

       3    reporter to mark as Exhibit 3.

 

       4              (Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Can we take a break in about ten

 

       6    minutes, Mr. Klayman?

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Sure.  No, no, we're still

 

       8    continuing.  We'll keep going.

 

       9              THE WITNESS:  Oh, I'm sorry.

 

      10              MR. MARSHALL:  Do you still have your

 

      11    microphone on?

 

      12              THE WITNESS:  I thought we were going to take

 

      13    a break.

 

      14              MR. MARSHALL:  No, in ten minutes.

 

      15              THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

 

      16         Q.   Showing you a document which has been marked

 

      17    as Exhibit 3.  It contains a letter to Cecilia Chang

 

      18    from your attorney Mark Holscher of O'Melveny & Myers,

 

      19    "Re:  Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund."  Attached is a

 

      20    statement, "Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund, Establishment

 

      21    and Purposes of Defense Fund," "Dr. Lee's Defense

 

      22    Team," "Procedures (regarding) Receipt/Disbursement of

 

      23    Donated Funds and Priorities Regarding Allocation Of

 

      24    Disbursements, and "Status of Fund Raising."  Have you

 

      25    ever seen this document before?


 

                                                               167

 

 

       1         A.   Do you know when this document written?  The

 

       2    date?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Well, there is something

 

       4    handwritten at the top there.

 

       5         A.   July 28.  Repeat your question.

 

       6         Q.   Have you ever seen this document before that

 

       7    I just handed to you?

 

       8         A.   No.

 

       9         Q.   It's stamped Bates Numbers 1269 through, and

 

      10    including, 1272.

 

      11         A.   No.

 

      12         Q.   Read the first page of this document.  Can

 

      13    you see this?  It says, "Attached is the summary

 

      14    description of the Defense Fund for the Web site," Wen

 

      15    Ho Lee Defense Fund.  "This description needs to be

 

      16    placed on the site.  It has been authorized by the

 

      17    family, Brian Sun, and others.  I believe this summary

 

      18    explains the current situation and our need for funds. 

 

      19    In addition, to retain your independent status as a

 

      20    member of the Fund Review Committee, you should take

 

      21    your Northern California P.O. Box off the Web site and

 

      22    take yourself out of the loop of directly handling

 

      23    funds so that no questions can be raised regarding your

 

      24    involvement in the handling of funds on a going forward

 

      25    basis.  All funds should go directly to the P.O. Box of


 

                                                               168

 

 

       1    the authorized accountants in Santa Monica.  Thank you

 

       2    for all your work on behalf of Dr. Lee.  It is

 

       3    critical, however, that you implement these changes and

 

       4    honor the family's wishes.  Thanks for your help and

 

       5    please call me if you have any questions.  Very truly

 

       6    yours, Mark Holscher of O'Melveny & Myers." Copies to

 

       7    Mr. Cline, Brian Sun, Alberta Lee, and Cecilia Lee.

 

       8         A.   No, Chung Lee.

 

       9         Q.   Chung Lee, excuse me.

 

      10         A.   My son.

 

      11         Q.   Okay.  Now, this refreshes your recollection,

 

      12    does it not, that your family authorized this Web site

 

      13    to raise money for you, this Web site of Cecilia Chang,

 

      14    called "wenholee.org"?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      16              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      17              MR. SUN:  Yes, if you understand the

 

      18    question.

 

      19         A.   This is the first time I have seen this

 

      20    letter in my life, and it also the first time I know my

 

      21    family, Brian Sun and other, has authorized the Web

 

      22    site.  This is the first time I know.

 

      23         Q.   No one in your family ever discussed that

 

      24    with you before?

 

      25         A.   No.


 

                                                               169

 

 

       1         Q.   Brian Sun never discussed that with you

 

       2    before?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Objection.  To the extent that the

 

       4    answer calls for attorney/client communications, I'm

 

       5    going to instruct you not to answer.

 

       6              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       7         Q.   Now, you are a member of your family, are you

 

       8    not?  You, Wen Ho Lee, are a member of the Lee family,

 

       9    are you not?

 

      10         A.   I have wife and two children, and four of us

 

      11    is, I consider as a family member, yes.

 

      12         Q.   So consequently, you authorized this Web

 

      13    site, wenholee.org?

 

      14         A.   That's wrong.

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Objection, misstates the evidence.

 

      16         Q.   Are you saying that your family did not have

 

      17    your authorization?

 

      18         A.   I didn't say that.

 

      19         Q.   So they did -- your family did have your

 

      20    authorization.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection --

 

      22         A.   I didn't say that either.

 

      23              MR. SUN:  -- misstates the evidence.

 

      24         Q.   Well, you answer the question.  Did your

 

      25    family have authorization to tell Ms. Chang to operate


 

                                                               170

 

 

       1    a Web site, "wenholee.org," and use it to raise money

 

       2    and to publish materials about your defense?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Authorization from whom?

 

       4         Q.   From you.

 

       5              MR. SUN:  He's already answered that

 

       6    question.

 

       7         Q.   Answer the question.

 

       8         A.   The answer is no.  I did not authorize that.

 

       9         Q.   So your family did that without authorization?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Without authorization from him?

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

      12         A.   That's correct.

 

      13         Q.   Okay.  Now, you are aware of Mr. Trulock's

 

      14    allegations that he was defamed by materials placed on

 

      15    that Web site by Ms. Chang?

 

      16         A.   Please repeat your question.

 

      17         Q.   You are aware of Mr. Trulock's allegations in

 

      18    this lawsuit that he was defamed by materials that were

 

      19    placed on that Web site that called him a racist and

 

      20    said that he had singled you out because you were

 

      21    Chinese.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      23         Q.   You're aware of those -- you're aware of the

 

      24    allegations of this lawsuit?

 

      25         A.   I -- I -- I know Mr. Trulock accused me


 

                                                               171

 

 

       1    because he think I put something on the wenholee.org

 

       2    without any content of that Web site, am I right?  I

 

       3    don't understand.

 

       4         Q.   What do you understand Mr. Trulock is

 

       5    accusing you of?

 

       6         A.   Well, he accuse me -- to my understanding, he

 

       7    accuse me something contending that wenholee.

 

       8    organization.  Something he's not happy, and so he

 

       9    accused me, and he accuse me I set up the wenholee.org

 

      10    or I told somebody to set up.  That's to my best

 

      11    understanding.  Am I right?  I -- I don't remember.  I

 

      12    seen the -- the accusation before, but I cannot

 

      13    remember every line.

 

      14         Q.   And you're aware that Mr. Trulock is saying

 

      15    that what was published on that Web site, saying that

 

      16    he singled you out for an investigation because you

 

      17    were Chinese and as a racist, that that defamed his

 

      18    reputation, correct?  You're aware of that?

 

      19         A.   I remember something -- something like what

 

      20    you said, but I don't know exactly the detail.  I can't

 

      21    remember.

 

      22         Q.   And it's your position that you didn't

 

      23    authorize this, correct?  You did not authorize the

 

      24    publication of materials to defame Mr. Trulock?

 

      25         A.   That's correct.


 

                                                               172

 

 

       1         Q.   Okay.  This letter says that your family

 

       2    authorized that, correct?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  They -- that's not what that letter

 

       4    says.  Objection as to form.

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Let him -- let him testify.

 

       6         A.   My understanding from the letter is my family

 

       7    authorized the Web site, but whatever put into the Web

 

       8    site, my family did not authorize that.  That's my

 

       9    understanding from this.

 

      10         Q.   Okay.  But since you don't really -- since

 

      11    you claim not to know anything about this, then how do

 

      12    you know that your family did not authorize publishing

 

      13    materials that allegedly defame Mr. Trulock?

 

      14         A.   I didn't say that.  I said based on this

 

      15    letter, my judgment, my interpretation based on this

 

      16    letter, it says my family authorize the Web site, but

 

      17    this letter did not say my family authorize the content

 

      18    of the article or anything to do with Trulock.  It's

 

      19    been authorized by my family to put into the Web site. 

 

      20    It did not say that in this letter.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Okay.  Can we take a break here

 

      22    pretty soon?

 

      23              MR. KLAYMAN:  I have a few more questions,

 

      24    and then we'll take a break.  You're not refuting --

 

      25    you have no information to refute that your family did


 

                                                               173

 

 

       1    authorize this Web site run by Cecilia Chang,

 

       2    wenholee.org?

 

       3              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       4         A.   What do you mean, "refute"?

 

       5         Q.   You're not claiming that your family did not

 

       6    have authorization to have Ms. Chang have this Web

 

       7    site, wenholee.org?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  From whom?  Authorization from

 

       9    whom?

 

      10         A.   You mean authorize from my family member? 

 

      11    Like my daughter?  My son?

 

      12         Q.   The letter says that the Web site has been

 

      13    authorized by the family, Brian Sun, and others, 

 

      14    correct?

 

      15         A.   That's what this said in this letter.

 

      16         Q.   Right.  Now, you have no -- you have no facts

 

      17    to refute that, do you?

 

      18         A.   You mean -- I don't have any --

 

      19         Q.   Do you have any information that this is

 

      20    wrong, what's said here in this letter?

 

      21         A.   I don't have any information to say this is

 

      22    wrong or this is right other than this letter here. 

 

      23    That's why.

 

      24         Q.   Now, by saying that you didn't authorize the

 

      25    Web site --


 

                                                               174

 

 

       1         A.   I did not authorize it --

 

       2         Q.   Okay.

 

       3         A.   -- the Web site.

 

       4         Q.   That's your testimony.  Given the information

 

       5    in this letter that your family authorized the Web

 

       6    site, is it your position that Notra Trulock should be

 

       7    suing your family for defamation and not you?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       9         Q.   Is that your position, that we sued the wrong

 

      10    party?  We should be suing your wife and your daughter

 

      11    and other members of your family?

 

      12         A.   I didn't say that.  I say based on this

 

      13    letter, the Web site was set up with some -- authorize

 

      14    by the family, which mean either my daughter or my son

 

      15    or my wife.  I don't know.  I don't know.

 

      16         Q.   Well, you're -- you're not willing to say

 

      17    that you authorized it.  This letter says that it was

 

      18    authorized by your family, Brian Sun, and others.  So

 

      19    based on that, is it your position that the Plaintiff

 

      20    Notra Trulock has sued the wrong individual; that Notra

 

      21    Trulock should be suing your family, Brian Sun, and

 

      22    others, but not you?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      24         Q.   Is that your position?

 

      25         A.   My position is I did not authorize this Web


 

                                                               175

 

 

       1    site, and I don't know who authorize the Web site, 

 

       2    other than the information on this piece paper.  But

 

       3    this piece paper may be wrong -- may be right, maybe

 

       4    wrong, I don't know.

 

       5         Q.   Based on your testimony, are you willing to

 

       6    assume responsibility for Plaintiff having to amend his

 

       7    Complaint to sue your family, Mr. Sun, and others?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  I'm going to object.  I'm going to

 

       9    direct him not to answer.  That's not relevant to this

 

      10    litigation.

 

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Certify it.

 

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  Are you mocking me again, Mr.

 

      14    Sun?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  No, not at all.

 

      16              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yeah, I wish they had a picture

 

      17    of your face.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Can we take a break soon, Mr.

 

      19    Klayman?

 

      20              MR. KLAYMAN:  I have a few more questions,

 

      21    then we'll take a break.

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Are you tired, Dr. Lee?

 

      23              THE WITNESS:  I'm really tire, yes.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Let's take a break.

 

      25              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  We're going off the


 

                                                               176

 

 

       1    record.  The time is 2:32, Videotape 2.

 

       2              (Recess taken.)

 

       3              MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:  Thank you.  We're back on

 

       4    the record, beginning with Tape 3.  The time is 2:53.

 

       5         Q.   Later on in this letter, it says -- this is

 

       6    the letter from your lawyer Mark Holscher.  It's

 

       7    written to Cecilia Chang.  "Thank you for all of your

 

       8    work on behalf of Dr. Lee."  The work of Cecilia Chang

 

       9    was on your behalf, was it not, Dr. Lee?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      11         A.   Say your question again.  I seen that, but

 

      12    what -- what is your question?

 

      13         Q.   The Web site, wenholee.org, as written by

 

      14    your lawyer, was on your behalf?

 

      15              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      16         A.   That's what's said in the letter.

 

      17         Q.   Yeah.  And you have no information to say

 

      18    that Mr. Holscher wasn't telling the truth when he

 

      19    wrote that to Ms. Chang, do you?

 

      20         A.   Do I have any information that --

 

      21         Q.   That Mr. Holscher isn't telling the truth

 

      22    when he wrote that?

 

      23              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form. 

 

      24         A.   This is the first time I seen this letter, so

 

      25    I don't know when Mr. Holscher wrote this one.  You say


 

                                                               177

 

 

       1    true or not true?

 

       2         Q.   You have no information to claim that what

 

       3    Mr. Holscher wrote to Cecilia Chang is untrue?  "Thank

 

       4    you for all of your work on behalf of Dr. Lee"?

 

       5         A.   I don't know whether it's true or not.  I

 

       6    don't know.

 

       7         Q.   You have no information to say it's not true,

 

       8    though, do you?

 

       9         A.   I don't have any information to say it's not

 

      10    true.

 

      11         Q.   Okay.  And Mark Holscher was your lawyer,

 

      12    correct?

 

      13         A.   That's correct.

 

      14         Q.   And is still your lawyer, correct?

 

      15         A.   That's correct.

 

      16         Q.   You haven't fired him, have you?

 

      17         A.   No.

 

      18         Q.   And you haven't told him not to be in

 

      19    communication with Cecilia Chang, correct?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  Objection.  Any communications

 

      21    between Dr. Lee and Mr. Holscher are privileged, and

 

      22    therefore I instruct him not to answer.

 

      23         Q.   Have you told Mr. Holscher to tell Ms. Chang

 

      24    that she was unauthorized to maintain this Web site

 

      25    "wenholee.org," on your behalf?


 

                                                               178

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Same instruction --

 

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.

 

       3              MR. SUN:  -- instruct him not to answer.

 

       4         Q.   Turn to the second page of this document, 

 

       5    "Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund," "Establishment and

 

       6    Purposes of the Defense Fund."  It says, "In September,

 

       7    1999, in the face of extremely distorted and

 

       8    prejudicial press coverage and a massive government

 

       9    investigation singling Dr. Lee out for suspected

 

      10    espionage on behalf of the People's Republic of China,

 

      11    the family and friends of Dr. Lee established a defense

 

      12    fund to assist him in refuting and defeating these

 

      13    unsubstantiated specious allegations."  Do you see

 

      14    that?

 

      15         A.   Yes, I see it.

 

      16         Q.   Now, where it says that you were singled out

 

      17    for suspected espionage, that, in fact, was your

 

      18    position, that you were being singled out by the

 

      19    Government, correct?

 

      20              MR. SUN:  As to what time frame?

 

      21              MR. KLAYMAN:  As to any time frame.

 

      22         Q.   That's your position, isn't it, that you were

 

      23    singled out for suspected espionage?

 

      24         A.   Well, what is your question?

 

      25         Q.   What is written here in this document, which


 

                                                               179

 

 

       1    is being sent to Cecilia Chang, that you're being

 

       2    singled out for suspected espionage by the Government,

 

       3    that is your, Dr. Wen Ho Lee's, position as well, is it

 

       4    not?

 

       5         A.   Now, when you say "my position," do you mean

 

       6    I agree with this or I disagree with this?

 

       7         Q.   Yes, do you agree with this?

 

       8         A.   I didn't -- I didn't agree with this or

 

       9    disagree, because when they wrote this, I -- I'm in

 

      10    jail.  I don't know anything about this.  This is the

 

      11    first time I seen this letter today.  Today is the

 

      12    first time I have seen this letter.  And, in fact, I'm

 

      13    only read four line.  I did not read to the bottomline

 

      14    yet.

 

      15         Q.   Okay.  Now, this statement that you were

 

      16    being singled out, that is the same thing that Notra

 

      17    Trulock, my client, is suing about, for being the

 

      18    subject of publications that you were being singled

 

      19    out, correct?

 

      20         A.   I don't know.  I cannot make a judgment on

 

      21    your question because I -- I don't know what is

 

      22    singling out here mean because I didn't write this.

 

      23         Q.   This -- this statement of the legal defense

 

      24    fund was actually published on the Web site

 

      25    wenholee.org, correct?


 

                                                               180

 

 

       1         A.   I don't know.  I -- I don't know.

 

       2         Q.   Now, you've looked at that Web site, haven't

 

       3    you, wenholee.org?

 

       4         A.   I look at the Web site only recently, after I

 

       5    was released in September the 13.  To the end of 2000,

 

       6    or maybe beginning of this year, my daughter bring a

 

       7    laptop.  I don't have any computer until she bring a

 

       8    laptop.  I did open it and look at sometime --

 

       9    sometime, but I was probably most likely after, you

 

      10    know, the beginning of this year.

 

      11         Q.   And you -- you read the Web site, correct?

 

      12         A.   Sometime I look at.  Doesn't necessarily read

 

      13    it.  I look at to see what's going on, that's all. 

 

      14    Because I notice most of the article in the Web site

 

      15    are copied from either New York Time or L.A. Time or

 

      16    some bigger newspaper.  To my best judgment, to my best

 

      17    knowledge, the article, it's all copy from somewhere

 

      18    else.

 

      19         Q.   When you looked at the Web site, you did see

 

      20    this Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund statement published on

 

      21    the Web site, did you not?

 

      22         A.   Which one?

 

      23         Q.   You saw what I just read you.

 

      24         A.   Which one?

 

      25         Q.   It's Number 1270.  You saw this on the --


 

                                                               181

 

 

       1         A.   This?

 

       2         Q.   -- on the Web site.

 

       3         A.   This one?

 

       4         Q.   Yes.

 

       5         A.   I repeat, today is the first time I ever seen

 

       6    any words, any sentence on this piece paper.  Today is

 

       7    the first time I have seen something like this.  I have

 

       8    never seen this before in my life, anywhere.

 

       9         Q.   But you just stated that you have looked at

 

      10    the wenholee.org Web site, correct?

 

      11         A.   I look it, open it, but I did not see this

 

      12    article.  I did not see this article.

 

      13         Q.   Okay.  What articles did you see when you

 

      14    opened it?

 

      15         A.   Usually I don't look -- read article.  I told

 

      16    you, I look at the title, it would say, oh, "FBI say

 

      17    something," blah-blah-blah, and most of the article are

 

      18    copy  from New York Time, L.A. Time, Washington Post,

 

      19    or some other big newspaper.  And usually I already

 

      20    seen those articles in the newspaper already.  So it's

 

      21    -- it's not new to me.  It's old.

 

      22         Q.   You're pretty good with computers, aren't you?

 

      23         A.   In what sense?

 

      24         Q.   You know how computers operate, you know how

 

      25    to operate them.


 

                                                               182

 

 

       1              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

       2         Q.   Correct?

 

       3         A.   You have to give me your definition?  What do

 

       4    you mean "operate"?

 

       5         Q.   You know -- you know how use to a computer

 

       6    to -- to call up an Internet site, correct?

 

       7         A.   That part I know, yes.

 

       8         Q.   And that's much less complicated than

 

       9    transferring classified documents from a restricted

 

      10    site to an unrestricted site, which you've also done,

 

      11    correct?

 

      12              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form and compound.

 

      13         Q.   You have -- you have transferred classified

 

      14    documents from a restricted site to a unrestricted

 

      15    site, correct?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  I'm going to instruct the witness

 

      17    not to answer.  I don't think this question is relevant

 

      18    to this litigation.

 

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, certify it.

 

      20         Q.   In fact, you were prosecuted and convicted

 

      21    for that, weren't you?

 

      22              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      23         Q.   In fact, you carry a felony conviction, do

 

      24    you not?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.


 

                                                               183

 

 

       1         Q.   So using an Internet site is not difficult

 

       2    for you, is it?

 

       3         A.   I know how to use the Internet.  I know how

 

       4    to open it, yes.

 

       5         Q.   How many times have you looked at the

 

       6    wenholee.org Web site?

 

       7         A.   I don't remember how many time.

 

       8         Q.   What computer did you use to open up that Web

 

       9    site?

 

      10         A.   I have a laptop very similar to this

 

      11    one, but I -- I know it's a Sony, S-O-N-Y.  That's all

 

      12    I know.

 

      13         Q.   And how long have you had it?

 

      14         A.   To my best memory, the laptop was brought to

 

      15    my house by my daughter probably around sometime toward

 

      16    the end of the last year, to my best memory.  I may be

 

      17    wrong.

 

      18         Q.   You're aware that technology exists for us to

 

      19    determine, if the Court orders it, how many times

 

      20    you've opened up that Web site, wenholee.org?

 

      21         A.   What is your question?

 

      22         Q.   You are aware that there is technology that

 

      23    we can find out how many times you've looked at the

 

      24    wenholee.org Web site off of your laptop?

 

      25              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.


 

                                                               184

 

 

       1         A.   To my best knowledge, it is possible, but I

 

       2    don't know for sure.

 

       3         Q.   Do you want to amend your answer, now that

 

       4    you know that we can actually find out how many times

 

       5    you've looked at it?

 

       6         A.   What is your question?

 

       7         Q.   How many times have you opened up the

 

       8    wenholee.org Web site?

 

       9         A.   I told you, I don't remember.

 

      10         Q.   More than once, correct?

 

      11         A.   Yes, more than once.

 

      12         Q.   More than five times, correct?

 

      13         A.   Possible.

 

      14         Q.   Okay.  In fact, you look at that Web site

 

      15    frequently, correct?

 

      16         A.   I don't know.  What do you mean "frequently"?

 

      17         Q.   Several times a week.

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Do you have a time frame on this,

 

      19    Mr. Klayman?

 

      20         Q.   Please answer the question.

 

      21              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      22         A.   It's possible, but I don't remember.  I don't

 

      23    know for sure.

 

      24         Q.   Okay.  So you've read substantial portions of

 

      25    that Web site?


 

                                                               185

 

 

       1         A.   I already told you, I open it.  Usually I

 

       2    don't look at -- I don't read the article.  I just look

 

       3    at the title.  That's all.

 

       4         Q.   You only open the Web site to look at titles? 

 

       5    You don't read anything?

 

       6         A.   Well, I didn't say that.  I said most of the

 

       7    time, I open it and read the title.  Very seldom I will

 

       8    read the article.  Very, very seldom.

 

       9         Q.   What articles have you read?

 

      10         A.   I don't remember which article I read.

 

      11         Q.   But they're all about you, right?

 

      12         A.   I assume so, but I don't know for sure.

 

      13         Q.   You've seen affidavits by Robert Vrooman and

 

      14    Charles Washington on the wenholee.org Web site, have

 

      15    you not?

 

      16              MR. SUN:  Objection as to form.

 

      17              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      18              MR. SUN:  Yeah, if you -- yes, if you can

 

      19    understand the question, you can answer it.

 

      20         A.   Repeat your question.

 

      21         Q.   You've seen affidavits of Robert Vrooman and

 

      22    Charles Washington on the wenholee.org?

 

      23         A.   The answer is no.

 

      24         Q.   I'll show you what I'll ask the court

 

      25    reporter to mark as Exhibit 4.  It's a Declaration of


 

                                                               186

 

 

       1    Robert Vrooman.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Thank you.

 

       3              (Exhibit 4 marked for identification.)

 

       4         Q.   Have you seen that document before?

 

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  Strike that.

 

       6         Q.   You've seen that on the Web site,

 

       7    wenholee.org, have you not?

 

       8              MR. SUN:  Objection, asked and answered.

 

       9              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      10              MR. SUN:  Yeah, you can answer the question.

 

      11         A.   Repeat your question, please.

 

      12         Q.   You seen this declaration of Robert Vrooman

 

      13    on the Web site wenholee.org, correct?

 

      14         A.   The answer is no.

 

      15         Q.   I'll show what I'll ask the court reporter to

 

      16    mark as Declaration of Charles E. Washington, Exhibit 5.

 

      17              (Exhibit 5 marked for identification.)

 

      18         Q.   You've seen this declaration on the Web site,

 

      19    wenholee.org?

 

      20         A.   The answer is no.

 

      21         Q.   Having looked at the Web site wenholee.org

 

      22    frequently, have you ever told Cecilia Chang to no

 

      23    longer have a Web site in your name?

 

      24         A.   The answer is no.

 

      25         Q.   Have you ever told her to take anything down


 

                                                               187

 

 

       1    from the Web site, wenholee.org?  To remove it?

 

       2         A.   The answer is no.

 

       3         Q.   Have you ever told her to change anything on

 

       4    that Web site?

 

       5         A.   No.

 

       6         Q.   Have you ever told her that she didn't have

 

       7    authorization to create that Web site --

 

       8         A.   No.

 

       9         Q.   -- from you?

 

      10         A.   No.

 

      11         Q.   In fact, you accept responsibility for that

 

      12    Web site, do you not?

 

      13              MR. SUN:  Objection, asked and answered, 

 

      14    argumentative.

 

      15         A.   What is your question?

 

      16         Q.   The Web site, wenholee.org, you accept that

 

      17    as your Web site, do you not?

 

      18              THE WITNESS:  Should I answer?

 

      19              MR. SUN:  Ask and answered.  But you can

 

      20    answer it again, if you want.   Do you understand the

 

      21    question?

 

      22              THE WITNESS:  No, not quite.

 

      23         A.   Say again, please.

 

      24         Q.   The Web site, wenholee.org, you accept that

 

      25    as your Web site, do you not?


 

                                                               188

 

 

       1         A.   Do I accept that as my Web site?

 

       2         Q.   That it was put up there on your behalf?  It

 

       3    was created on your behalf?

 

       4              MR. SUN:  That's a different question.

 

       5         Q.   You admit that the wenholee.org Web site was

 

       6    created on your behalf?

 

       7              MR. SUN:  Objection, asked and answered.

 

       8              THE WITNESS:  Do I answer?

 

       9              MR. SUN:  Yeah, you can answer it again. 

 

      10         A.   To my best judgment, the Web site may be

 

      11    benefit to me, but I don't know for sure.

 

      12         Q.   I asked whether the Web site was created on

 

      13    your behalf.

 

      14              MR. SUN:  Objection, asked and answered.

 

      15         Q.   Yes or no.  Yes or no.

 

      16         A.   I don't know.

 

      17         Q.   Is there anything about the wenholee.org Web

 

      18    site that you don't like?

 

      19         A.   I don't know enough to make a judgment to

 

      20    answer your question; therefore, I cannot answer your

 

      21    question.

 

      22         Q.   Turning back to Exhibit 3, it says, it's at

 

      23    the bottom of page 1270 --

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Exhibit 3 is --

 

      25              MR. MARSHALL:  That one.


 

                                                               189

 

 

       1         A.   This one.

 

       2              MR. SUN:  Is that the --

 

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Page 1270.

 

       4              MR. MARSHALL:  That's Exhibit 3.

 

       5              MR. SUN:  Exhibit 3 being the Holscher

 

       6    letter?

 

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.

 

       8         Q.   It says, under the section "Dr. Lee's Defense

 

       9    Team," "Dr. Lee has engaged the assistance of four law

 

      10    firms to assist him in responding to the Government's

 

      11    persecution of him and his family."

 

      12         A.   Excuse me, where are you reading?  Oh, the

 

      13    second page.  And where?

 

      14         Q.   Do you see where it says, "Dr. Lee has

 

      15    engaged the assistance of four law firms to assist him

 

      16    in responding to the Government's persecution of him

 

      17    and his family."

 

      18         A.   I read that.

 

      19         Q.   Yes.  And you agree with that statement, do

 

      20    you not?

 

      21         A.   I know Mark Holscher is one law firm -- law

 

      22    firm, John Cline is different, and I don't know who the

 

      23    other two here.

 

      24         Q.   Brian Sun's law firm is the third, correct?

 

      25         A.   I don't know, because it says the Government


 

                                                               190

 

 

       1    prosecution.  To my best knowledge, this would be refer

 

       2    to the criminal charge, right, the Government

 

       3    prosecution?  And to my best knowledge, I'm not sure 

 

       4    if Brian Sun involve or not.  I don't know.

 

       5         Q.   You're aware that in your civil case, you

 

       6    have Brian Sun's law firm, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun, and

 

       7    Sidley & Austin, correct?  I turn your attention to

 

       8    page 1271, middle of the page. 

 

       9         A.   This part I -- yes, I know this.

 

      10         Q.   So this -- this statement concerns not just

 

      11    the criminal matter, but your civil suit against the

 

      12    Government for alleged violations of your privacy

 

      13    rights, correct?

 

      14         A.   To me, this statement here means both the

 

      15    Government prosecution and the lawsuit of the privacy

 

      16    act.  Well, yeah, that, to me, that looks like that's

 

      17    what that mean here.

 

      18         Q.   Okay.  So you have four law firms, correct?

 

      19         A.   This is not quite right.  If you read this

 

      20    first sentence, it said that "Dr. Lee has engaged the

 

      21    assistance of four law firms to assist him in

 

      22    responding to the Government prosecution (sic)."

 

      23         Q.   It says persecution.

 

      24              MR. SUN:  Persecution.

 

      25         A.   Oh, persecution.


 

                                                               191

 

 

       1         Q.   Do you know what "persecution" is?

 

       2         A.   I don't quite understand what that mean.

 

       3         Q.   You don't know what the word "persecute"

 

       4    means?

 

       5         A.   Nuh-uh.

 

       6         Q.   It means when you're being singled out for

 

       7    special treatment, negative treatment.

 

       8         A.   I see.

 

       9         Q.   Do you understand that?

 

      10         A.   (Witness nods head.)

 

      11         Q.   You agree with that, correct?

 

      12         A.   I -- I don't know that's true or not, because

 

      13    I don't know why -- why the Government investigate on

 

      14    me, I don't know.  I don't know the reason.

 

      15         Q.   Do you know a Helen Zia?

 

      16         A.   Yes.

 

      17         Q.   Who is Helen Zia?

 

      18         A.   She's a writer, and she wrote a book about my

 

      19    story.

 

      20         Q.   When did you first meet Helen Zia?

 

      21         A.   To my best recollection, to my best memory,

 

      22    I -- I believe I met her sometime during the winter of

 

      23    last year.  I would say, probably like December 2000.

 

      24         Q.   Who introduced you?

 

      25         A.   I don't remember who introduced me -- I mean,


 

                                                               192

 

 

       1    introduce her to me.  I don't remember who introduce.

 

       2         Q.   How did you come to meet her?

 

       3         A.   One of the publisher, I guess, talk to her,

 

       4    of who talk to who to write a book about me, and she --

 

       5    she was pick.  I mean, somebody pick her to -- to write

 

       6    a book about me, and -- and then she come to my house

 

       7    during the winter.

 

       8         Q.