1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE

EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA

3 NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )

)

4 Plaintiff, )

)

5 v. ) Case No. 00-1527-A

)

6 WEN HO LEE, )

)

7 Defendant. )

______________________________)

8 )

NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )

9 )

Plaintiff, )

10 )

)

11 v. ) Case No. 00-1627-A

)

12 CHARLES E. WASHINGTON, et al.,)

)

13 Defendants. )

14 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF WEN HO LEE

Suite 1500E

15 300 Central, Southwest

Albuquerque, New Mexico

16 October 10, 2001

9:15 a.m.

PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL

18 PROCEDURE, this deposition was:

19 TAKEN BY: LARRY KLAYMAN

ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF

21 REPORTED BY: Kendra D. Tellez, NM CCR #205

P D & O Reporting, Inc.

22 Suite 1500E

300 Central, Southwest

23 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 For the Plaintiff:

3 JUDICIAL WATCH, INC.

Attorneys at Law

4 Suite 725

501 School Street, Southwest

5 Washington, D.C. 20024

By: Larry Klayman

6 John L. Martin

Thomas J. Fitton

For the Defendant Lee:

SIDLEY, AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD

9 Attorneys at Law

1501 K Street, Northwest

10 Washington, D.C. 20005

By: Mr. C. Kevin Marshall

AND

O'NEILL, LYSAGHT & SUN, LLP

13 Attorneys at Law

Suite 700

14 100 Wilshire Boulevard

Santa Monica, California 90401

15 By: Mr. Brian A. Sun

16 AND

17 FREEDMAN, BOYD, DANIELS, HOLLANDER, GOLDBERG &

CLINE, P.A.

18 Attorneys at Law

Suite 700

19 20 First Plaza

Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

20 By: Mr. John D. Cline

21 For the Defendant Vrooman:

22 LAW OFFICE OF GARY HOWARD SIMPSON

Attorneys at law

23 9505 Kingsley Avenue,

Bethesda, Maryland 20814

24 By: Ms. Alane Tempchine

1 Also Present: Will Moir (Videographer)

2 Mr. Anthony J. Coppolino

(United States Department of Justice)

Ms. Natalia Leons

4 Robert S. Sinton

Deborah Mayer

5 Kevin Van Hutten

Mike Lowe

6 (Federal Bureau of Investigation)

7 James E. Green

(DOE officer)

EXAMINATION OF WEN HO LEE

By Mr. Klayman 9

SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 311

CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 312

EXHIBITS

6 1. January 4, 2000, letter to Holscher and Cline

from Paula G. Burnett 93

7 2. Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum 102

3. July 28, 2000, letter to Chang from Holscher 166

8 4. Declaration of Robert Vrooman 186

5. Declaration of Washington 186

9 6. Sun memorandum to Ms. Chang, regarding Website

Description of Function and Purposes of

10 the Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund 221

7. December 10, 1999, Press Release 229

11 8. September 19, 1999, Press Release 236

9. Wen Ho Lee Information Packet 243

12 10. Memorandum in support of Motion for

Discovery of Materials Related to Selective

13 Prosecution 245

11. Affidavit of Mr. Michael Lowe 259

14 12. December 13, 1989, memorandum from Vrooman 272

13. Transcript of 60 Minutes interview 298

CERTIFIED QUESTIONS PAGE LINE

1. Certified Question 19 5

3 2. Certified Question 23 19

3. Certified Question 60 19

4 4. Certified Question 77 18

5. Certified Statement 78 1

5 6. Certified Question 78 13

7. Certified Question 85 5

6 8. Certified Question 97 11

9. Certified Question 101 19

7 10. Certified Question 107 24

11. Certified Question 122 13

8 12. Certified Question 123 1

13. Certified Question 123 7

9 14. Certified Question 123 24

15. Certified Question 132 25

10 16. Certified Question 133 5

17. Certified Question 135 8

11 18. Certified Question 136 14

19. Certified Question 136 20

12 20. Certified Question 137 1

21. Certified Question 137 6

13 22. Certified Question 137 12

23. Certified Question 138 24

14 24. Certified Question 140 2

25. Certified Question 154 25

15 26. Certified Question 169 1

27. Certified Question 175 5

16 28. Certified Question 177 23

29. Certified Question 214 17

17 30. Certified Question 215 7

31. Certified Question 219 14

18 32. Certified Question 229 9

33. Certified Question 232 10

19 34. Certified Question 243 7

35. Certified Question 246 1

20 36. Certified Question 258 16

37. Certified Question 261 16

21 38. Certified Question 264 1

39 Certified Question 264 8

22 40. Certified Question 264 14

41. Certified Question 265 6

23 42. Certified Question 265 12

43. Certified Question 267 3

24 44. Certified Question 268 17

45. Certified Question 269 24

25 46. Certified Question 275 23

1 47. Certified Question 283 19

48. Certified Question 284 15

2 49. Certified Question 285 1

50. Certified Question 306 4

3 51. Certified Question 306 24

52. Certified Question 307 4

4 53. Certified Question 307 13

54. Certified Question 307 20

5 55. Certified Question 308 14

56. Certified Question 308 21

6 57. Certified Question 309 2

58. Certified Question 309 8

1 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Today is

2 Wednesday, the 11th of October, 2001. The time is 9:15

3 a.m. I am Will Moir, owner of Will Moir Video

4 Productions, located in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

5 We're here for the deposition of Wen Ho Lee,

6 in the case of Notra Trulock -- excuse me, in the case

7 of Notra Trulock versus Wen Ho Lee, filed in the United

8 States District Court for the District of New Mexico

9 case number, OO-1527-A(E)DBA. This deposition is being

10 videotaped in the presence of Kendra Tellez, with the

11 recording firm of PD&O. This deposition is being held

12 at 300 Central Avenue, Southwest, Suite 1500-East,

13 Albuquerque, New Mexico.

14 Counsel will now state their appearance.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman -- if you could

16 pan to everybody who is here.

17 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you, sir.

18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, chairman and

19 general counsel of Judicial Watch, on behalf of

20 Plaintiff Notra Trulock.

21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president of

22 Judicial Watch.

23 MR. MARTIN: John Martin, also with Judicial

24 Watch, on behalf of the Plaintiff.

25 MS. TEMPCHIN: Alane Tempchin for Defendant

1 Robert S. Vrooman, on behalf of Gary Simpson and Jack

2 Erikson.

3 MR. MARSHALL: Kevin Marshall of Sidley,

4 Austin, Brown & Wood, representing Dr. Lee.

5 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.

6 MR. SUN: Brian Sun, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun,

7 on behalf of Dr. Lee.

8 MR. COPPOLINO: I'm Anthony Coppolino, with

9 the United States Department of Justice, representing

10 the United States.

11 MR. GREEN: Jim Green, Department of Energy,

12 classification officer.

13 MR. LOWE: Michael Lowe, Federal Bureau of

14 Investigation.

15 MS. LEONS: Natalia Leons, Federal Bureau of

16 Investigation.

17 MR. SINTON: Robert Sinton, Federal Bureau of

18 Investigation.

19 MR. CLINE: John Cline, counsel for Dr. Lee.

20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the

21 last part.

22 MR. CLINE: Cline, C-L-I-N-E.

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Are were you a law firm?

24 MR. CLINE: Yes.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: What law firm?

1 MR. CLINE: Freedman, Boyd, & Daniels.

2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter will

3 now swear in the witness.

4 WEN HO LEE

5 After having been first duly sworn under oath, was

6 questioned and testified as follows:

7 EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

9 Q. Mr. Lee, my name is Larry Klayman -- good

10 morning.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. -- Counsel for Mr. Trulock. When were you

13 born?

14 A. I was born December 21st, 1939.

15 Q. Okay. And where were you born?

16 A. Taiwan.

17 Q. What part of Taiwan?

18 A. Sen-Lo-Par (phonetic).

19 Q. Is there a city?

20 A. It's called Nantou.

21 Q. And how's that spelled?

22 A. N-A-N-T-O-U.

23 Q. T-O-U. Okay.

24 A. Somebody T -- somebody's spelling is T-O-W.

25 Q. And -- and run us through, briefly, your

1 educational background.

2 MR. SUN: Mr. Klayman, before Mr -- or Dr.

3 Lee answers the question, which is a perfectly

4 acceptable question, I just want to make a statement

5 for the record, given all the parties that we have here

6 at the table today. There are some folks from the

7 Government here, particularly the gentleman from DOE

8 who is here, I think, as I understand it, as performing

9 a role as a -- what I've been told as a classification

10 reviewer.

11 And my understanding is that his presence

12 today is to protect against any inadvertent or any type

13 of disclosure of classified information to the extent

14 any of your questioning may go into those areas.

15 And so I just want to put that on the record,

16 and also indicate that, from our perspective, although

17 we're obviously here to answer questions that are

18 pertinent to the litigation that has been brought by

19 Mr. Trulock, we have to make it clear on the record

20 that we think any questions that exceed the scope of

21 questioning which we think has been defined by the

22 District Court in Virginia, we will instruct Dr. Lee

23 not to answer. Again, but we'll see where the questions

24 go before we even venture into that discussion.

25 Also, I believe the gentleman from the video

1 production company -- it's not that he misspoke, but I

2 think he said something about the District of New

3 Mexico. We are in the District of New Mexico, but the

4 case we're talking about is pending in the Eastern

5 District of Virginia. So I would state that for the

6 record.

7 So, again, sorry to interrupt, but I think I

8 need to make that statement for the record, and I don't

9 know -- Mr. Coppolino is here from the Government as

10 well. I don't know if there is anything else that

11 needs to be added about the presence of these other

12 folks from the Government, but that's my understanding

13 as to why they're present here for this deposition.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's -- it's my

15 understanding, in fact, we have an agreement with the

16 Government, that they are going to have twenty days

17 from the date of availability of the video, which will

18 be today, to go through that video and raise any issues

19 with regard to information which may get into national

20 security areas, as they may claim.

21 However, Mr. Sun, in terms of how this

22 deposition will proceed, it proceeds under the Federal

23 Rules of Civil Procedure. There is no protective order

24 in place which would give you an opportunity to

25 instruct your client not to answer a question, and that

1 would be wholly inappropriate if you decided to do

2 that.

3 We don't have any intent in going behind --

4 beyond the Court's orders, but if you do instruct your

5 client not to answer, obviously, we're going to have to

6 move for attorney's fees and costs, because it's going

7 to require us to go through a briefing process and come

8 back here, and I hope that you won't do that. That's

9 not the way depositions are conducted.

10 MR. SUN: Well, I'm sure you will --

11 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll have an opportunity, in

12 other words, in that twenty days, if you want to make

13 any kind of argument with regard to a question you

14 might want to move to strike or you might want to do

15 this or that, you can do that. But this is going to be

16 a very slow process if we're going to have to go

17 through that, and it would be wholly inappropriate.

18 MR. SUN: Well, Mr. Klayman, I think you will

19 do what you think is appropriate on behalf of your

20 client, and we will do the same for our client.

21 I will also make the observation that I've

22 instructed my client, because of the number of parties

23 present and their different interests, that he should

24 pause for a moment after every question posed to him to

25 make sure that the Government has an opportunity to

1 speak up, if they think it necessary or appropriate in

2 light of your questioning. I just want that clear for

3 the record, that Dr. Lee is doing that at -- largely at

4 my direction.

5 So other than these preliminary statements,

6 I'm -- we're ready to proceed.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and there is one other

8 statement that should be cleared. I'm not saying this

9 for the record, because we can brief it, but I hope

10 you'll take it into account, is that you have an actual

11 or potential conflict of interest here, given the fact

12 that, as alleged in the Complaint, Dr. Lee and his

13 agents published defamatory information about our

14 client. And to the extent that you instruct the client

15 not to answer, it could be perceived to be that you're

16 protecting yourself as much as you're protecting him.

17 And that's why I hope that you will not exercise that

18 in an overbearing way.

19 I just warn you about this right now, because

20 we've gone through this before. In fact, you and I

21 have been in depositions before.

22 MR. SUN: The only part that's accurate about

23 your last statement is that we've been in depositions

24 before. Other than that, we're ready to proceed, and

25 the record will speak for itself.

1 If you think you have some motions you want

2 to bring, feel free to bring those motions. It's your

3 time today, so you can spend them any way you want.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it is my time. I'm just

5 hoping that you don't try to limit my time by not

6 having him answer questions and putting things on the

7 record which are not necessary. This was wholly

8 unnecessary. The Rules of Civil Procedure govern this

9 proceeding.

10 MR. SUN: I agree with that part.

11 MR. COPPOLINO: If I may just briefly state,

12 Mr. Klayman correctly stated that we have reached a

13 stipulation that the transcript of this deposition

14 would be sealed from public disclosure for a period of

15 20 days following receipt of the video in order for

16 there to be a review as to whether there was an

17 inadvertent disclosure of classified information at the

18 deposition. However, I want to make clear that this is

19 not a classified proceeding. And that to the extent

20 classified information may be -- may be responsive to a

21 question or that a question may risk the disclosure of

22 classified information, the United States would object

23 and would instruct that classified information not be

24 disclosed in response to a question.

25 Mr. Sun indicated correctly that I have a

1 classification official from the Department of Energy,

2 and also from the FBI, to assist any party or counsel

3 that wishes to confer so that we can avoid the

4 disclosure of classified information, and that is why

5 those individuals are there. If either counsel or Mr.

6 -- or Dr. Lee or Mr. Sun wish to confer about an issue

7 as to whether it might disclose classified information,

8 we're happy to do that.

9 To the extent we are certain that the

10 question calls for classified information, we would

11 object and instruct that classified information not be

12 disclosed in response to the question.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Same statements with regard to

14 that. If you -- if you so instruct the witness, given

15 the issues involved here, you do it at your own risk.

16 One other point is that it's my understanding

17 that Wen Ho Lee -- obviously, it's a matter of public

18 record -- has reached a plea agreement with the

19 Government. That plea agreement basically closes all

20 issues. I don't understand what the trepidation would

21 be in having him answer questions as long as he answers

22 truthfully those questions, notwithstanding national

23 security issues.

24 So, Mr. Sun, to the extent that you instruct

25 him not to answer, there would be no basis in doing

1 that unless the Government imposed a national security

2 objection.

3 MR. SUN: Well, there'll be a number of

4 reasons why counsel could instruct a witness not to

5 answer, including, but not limited to, privilege,

6 attorney/client privilege, spousal privilege, any of a

7 number of proper invocations of privilege that would

8 allow for the witness to be directed not to answer a

9 question. And there also are issues regarding

10 relevance, but, again, until we hear your questions --

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, but you -- you posed your

12 statement based on the scope of Court orders, and that

13 would be inappropriate at this point in time.

14 MR. SUN: I disagree with you.

15 Q. Mr. Lee, run us through your educational

16 background, briefly.

17 A. I got my --

18 Q. From -- from high school on up.

19 A. I finished high school in Taiwan and bachelor

20 degree in Taiwan, and I --

21 Q. Okay. Where did you go to high school in

22 Taiwan?

23 A. Kelung, K-E-L-U-N-G.

24 Q. And where is that located?

25 A. Kelung.

1 Q. And when did you graduate?

2 A. I don't remember. I think --

3 Q. Roughly speaking.

4 A. About 1959, roughly.

5 Q. And what happened after high school?

6 A. I went to college.

7 Q. Where did you go to college?

8 A. Cheng Kung University.

9 Q. How's that spelled?

10 A. C-H-E-N-G, K-U-N-G.

11 Q. Two words?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And where is that located?

14 A. It's Tainan, T-A-I-N-A-N.

15 Q. And what did you specialize in at Cheng Kung

16 University? What was your major?

17 A. Mechanical engineering.

18 Q. Did you graduate?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During your time -- and when did you graduate?

21 A. 1963.

22 Q. 1963?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During your period at Cheng Kung University,

25 were you a member of any associations or groups?

1 MR. SUN: Vague and ambiguous.

2 MR. MARSHALL: What's the relevance of that

3 question?

4 Q. Were you a member of any student

5 associations?

6 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you have any contact with any people who

9 had allegiance to the People's Republic of China?

10 MR. MARSHALL: Relevance.

11 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance, vague and

12 ambiguous.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: By the way, under the Rules of

14 Civil Procedure, you only have to object as to form;

15 otherwise, all you're doing is ticking off time here.

16 You can preserve all of your substantive objections

17 under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

18 MR. SUN: I think I'm doing it

19 appropriately. I'm not making argumentative objections

20 and statements --

21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm just telling you, we

22 can move it along quickly if you just say "Objection,"

23 because all of your substantive objections are

24 preserved.

25 MR. SUN: I'll object as I see fit.

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll move as we see fit.

2 MR. SUN: Very well.

3 Do you remember the question?

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 Q. Were you associ- -- did you have any contact

6 with groups that had ties to the People's Republic of

7 China.

8 MR. SUN: Let me ask you about time frame.

9 What time frame are you talking about?

10 MR. KLAYMAN: When he was in college at Cheng

11 Kung.

12 MR. SUN: Okay. My understanding is the

13 scope of this deposition is to focus on time frames

14 between 1995 and the present. I don't see the

15 connection between your line of questioning and the

16 subject matter of this Complaint. If you could state

17 some for the record, I'd be willing to --

18 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't have to state anything

19 for the record.

20 MR. SUN: All right. I'm going to direct the

21 witness not to answer.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: You're just running out the

23 clock, Mr. Lee -- Mr. Sun.

24 MR. SUN: I've directed my client not to

25 answer. You can move on.

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, I think you understand the

2 basis of it. Okay. He was under an investigation.

3 I'll give you this -- this courtesy at this point. I'm

4 trying to save time here, because there's a one-day

5 limitation initially, before we have to move for more

6 time. But he was under investigation for allegations

7 of espionage with the People's Republic of China and,

8 consequently, this is a relevant issue.

9 You are alleging that your client was

10 investigated because he's Chinese. We are saying he

11 was not investigated because he was Chinese, and our

12 client was defamed.

13 There are bases for investigation that might

14 hinge on whether or not he had prior contacts with the

15 People's Republic of China. That's the basis of it.

16 MR. SUN: Well, I disagree with you to this

17 extent, Mr. Klayman: My understanding of your lawsuit

18 is that this is a libel defamation lawsuit brought by

19 Mr. Trulock against Dr. Lee. As I understand the

20 Complaint, it has to do with statements allegedly made

21 in court about -- by other individuals about your

22 client. And I don't see how -- whether or not my

23 client may know some people from 30-plus years ago has

24 anything to do with that subject matter, and for that

25 reason, I'm directing him not to answer.

1 This is not going to be a deposition where

2 you try to reopen a Government investigation that is

3 now closed. I think it's appropriate for you to ask

4 questions that involve the subject matter of the

5 Complaint. I believe that there have been rulings by

6 the district court in the Eastern District of Virginia

7 that have confirmed my viewpoint in that regard.

8 So until I'm persuaded otherwise, I think

9 your questioning should focus on the subject matter of

10 the lawsuit, which are these statements, declarations,

11 whatever they're called, that were -- are the subject

12 of your Complaint. And if you would do that, I think

13 you'd make better use of your time today.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we will make good use of

15 our time, and we will be moving for appropriate relief

16 and attorney's fees and costs if this continues. There

17 is nothing that limits our deposition. You should have

18 read the record before you came here today, Mr. Sun,

19 before you attempted to obstruct -- obstruct it, as

20 you're now doing.

21 We are entitled to get into all issues here,

22 and there have been no such rulings with any such

23 limitations.

24 MR. SUN: Once again, I disagree.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: So you instruct him not to

1 answer?

2 MR. SUN: I instruct him not to answer.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. That means mark

4 the record at this point.

5 Q. Were you a member of any student

6 organizations?

7 MR. SUN: Asked and answered.

8 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you defending him or

9 yourself, Mr. Sun?

10 MR. SUN: You can answer the question.

11 A. Would you please repeat the question?

12 Q. Were you a member of any student

13 organizations?

14 A. To my best memory, I don't remember. It's

15 been a while.

16 Q. After you graduated from Cheng Kung

17 University, what did you do at that time?

18 MR. SUN: Educationwise?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Either professionally or

20 educationwise.

21 A. I stayed in Taiwan for one year, and then I

22 come to this country.

23 Q. What year did you come to this country?

24 A. 1964.

25 Q. And why did you come to this country?

1 A. I came for school, for education.

2 Q. And where did you go to school?

3 A. Texas A & M.

4 Q. And what did you study there?

5 A. Mechanical engineering.

6 Q. Had you received, what, a Bachelor of Science

7 at Cheng Kung in Taiwan?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And you went to Texas A & M to get a master's

10 degree or a doctorate degree?

11 A. Both.

12 Q. And when did you graduate from Texas A & M?

13 A. Towards the end of 1969.

14 Q. And what did you graduate with? What degrees?

15 A. Ph.D.

16 Q. During your time at Texas A & M, were you a

17 member of any student organizations?

18 A. To my best memory, I don't remember this.

19 Q. Did you have contact with anyone or any

20 entity with ties to the People's Republic of China?

21 MR. MARSHALL: Same objection.

22 MR. SUN: Same objection. Is there --

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Who am I getting two objections

24 from now?

25 MR. SUN: You're getting an objection from

1 counsel for Dr. Lee. Objection, relevance. And I'm

2 going to direct him not to answer that question.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

4 Q. During the time that -- during your period

5 that you lived in Taiwan, did you ever travel to the

6 People's Republic of China?

7 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, could you repeat the

8 question?

9 Q. During the time that you lived in Taiwan, Mr.

10 Lee, did you ever travel to the People's Republic of

11 China?

12 MR. MARSHALL: Objection to that, relevance.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Who is -- is he with you?

14 MR. SUN: Yes, he is.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Can I just have one

16 counsel make objections? That's usually the way it's

17 done at depositions.

18 MR. MARSHALL: Let me say something just to

19 clarify the relevance question and the basis for what

20 Mr. Sun has said. There have been --

21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, who is -- who is

22 defending this deposition?

23 MR. MARSHALL: Both of us.

24 MR. SUN: Both of us are. Mr. Marshall's

25 going to make a statement for the record, Mr. Klayman,

1 so just let him --

2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, who's going to handle

3 objections?

4 MR. SUN: I will handle the objections. Mr.

5 Marshall will make a statement for the record now.

6 MR. MARSHALL: There have been two document

7 requests to Dr. Lee prior to the document requests that

8 accompanied this Notice of Deposition. Dr. Lee

9 objected to both of them. You brought a Motion to

10 Compel to overcome those objections, and both your

11 Motions to Compel lost. I take it that the judge's

12 rulings on both of those Motions to Compel define the

13 limits of relevance in this case.

14 And I know that Mr. Klayman is well aware of

15 the judge's rulings. Among the -- the rule -- our

16 objections was that 1995 to the present is the only

17 relevant time period.

18 In addition, you twice asked for documents

19 about Mr. Lee's travels to China. We objected both

20 times, and, again, the judge ruled in our favor both

21 times. That's why this question's out of bounds, and

22 that's why most of the questions you've asked so far

23 are out of bounds. And that's the reason for Mr. Lee's

24 -- for Mr. Sun's objections, although relevance is not

25 generally a reason for telling a client not to answer,

1 if you persist in asking questions that are clearly not

2 relevant of the judge's orders, our only conclusion can

3 be you're trying to harass our client.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: My only conclusion is that

5 you're trying to harass us and run out the clock. I'm

6 asking background information -- background information

7 here. You just stated that most of my questions were

8 irrelevant. I asked two questions, as to whether he

9 was associated with certain student organizations and

10 if he traveled to China. That question is clearly

11 background information. I'm entitled to it.

12 In addition, you're talking about a very

13 limited ruling of a court order, which, frankly, is on

14 appeal to a judge. It was made by a magistrate at the

15 time. Those are on appeal. And these matters are not

16 even bearing with getting background information. So

17 if you want to persist and just obstruct the

18 deposition, you may proceed. You'll do it at your own

19 risk, but I'm entitled to ask it.

20 MR. SUN: My point is simply that the limits

21 of relevance in this case are quite clearly

22 established, and we're going to proceed on that basis.

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you can do what you want,

24 but just don't run out the clock for me.

25 MR. SUN: No, Larry, let me make this

1 suggestion, see if you agree with it, so that we can --

2 we can deal with this issue. If you would agree that

3 we have a standing objection on relevance throughout

4 your entire taking of depositions today, then I won't

5 have to interrupt each time and say, "Objection,

6 relevance." That's one proposal I would make you to

7 you now.

8 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. You can have

9 that.

10 MR. SUN: You stipulate on the record that

11 we having a standing objection on relevance

12 throughout -- for every question posed in the

13 deposition. Okay? Just hear me out. And then unless

14 I direct my client not to answer, I will -- you know,

15 basically, Dr. Lee, you'll answer the question. All

16 right?

17 THE WITNESS: Um-hmm.

18 MR. SUN: And -- but the stipulation's got to

19 be understanding proviso that I'm not waiving any

20 relevance objections to any questions and that I -- I'm

21 going to -- in doing so, that when I direct Dr. Lee not

22 to answer, it's going to be because we determine at

23 some point that the questioning has really gone beyond

24 the scope to a level where we believe, as previously

25 stated, we will direct Dr. Lee not to answer.

1 This proposal is designed, Mr. Klayman, to

2 avoid you being concerned about running out the clock,

3 avoid speeches by counsel, and allow you to proceed

4 with the deposition, hopefully in a more orderly way.

5 I make that proposal to you in the spirit of trying to

6 move this along.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: You always have that. The

8 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure provides that, so I

9 don't have to stipulate to it. But I'll even stipulate

10 to it, because it is the law.

11 In answer to Counsel's question about what

12 the magistrate ruled, he ruled that a request asking

13 for all documents concerning the PRC was overly broad.

14 Okay? He did not say we could not get into these

15 areas, and these areas are clearly relevant. You are

16 claiming that our client singled your client out

17 because he is ethnic Chinese. We're saying that is not

18 the case; that there was a valid basis to investigate

19 him. And, obviously, one of the bases the people used

20 to investigate individuals who are being accused of

21 breaches of national security are contacts with foreign

22 powers that are adverse to the United States, and that

23 was a legitimate reason to investigate him.

24 So it's quite relevant. And there is no

25 order saying we cannot get into it. So do you this at

1 your own risk.

2 MR. SUN: Well, Mr. Klayman, as I understand

3 the judge's rulings and the -- and the motions that

4 were litigated -- and, one, I know of no stay in

5 effect, so believe the judge's order is still in effect

6 unless overruled by a reviewing court -- is that it's

7 really focused on what Mr. Trulock knew, what Dr. Lee

8 knew, what statements were made that might have

9 allegedly defamed or libeled Mr. Trulock. And I

10 believe that's the proper focus of your examination.

11 It isn't what other people might have known or what

12 other things might have occurred outside the rubric of

13 Dr. Lee's knowledge or Mr. Trulock's knowledge.

14 So that's where I believe the proper focus

15 is. Again, to save time, we've agreed that we'll have

16 a standing objection on relevance, then I will only

17 speak up when necessary to invoke privilege objections

18 or to direct Dr. Lee not to answer because I believe

19 the scope of the question has gone beyond the pale.

20 And this way, we can move along faster, and I don't

21 have to speak up as much and disrupt your flow.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Why -- why do you have to

23 repeat that? By repeating, again, you're running out

24 the clock. That's what you're doing. It's quite clear

25 what your strategy is here. So I just say, let it

1 be, let the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure govern.

2 If you have a problem with a question, if I've gone

3 beyond the scope, you have an opportunity to move to

4 strike. And he's got -- he, in effect, has total

5 immunity now as long as he tells the truth. He's

6 already been convicted of a crime.

7 MR. SUN: Well, do you accept my proposal or

8 not, Mr. Klayman?

9 MR. KLAYMAN: I accept your proposal, because

10 it's the Rules of Civil Procedure, so stop. Let me

11 answer my -- let me ask my questions. If you have a

12 problem with the responses, then you can move to

13 strike, but these are relevant questions.

14 MR. SUN: I'm agreeing to my proposal, and

15 we'll proceed accordingly.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: These questions are also

17 relevant as to state of mind, intent, and -- and issues

18 involving malice, if, indeed, that becomes an issue in

19 the case. The Court has not made any rulings, as of

20 yet, as to whether my client is a public figure or

21 not. And consequently these questions need to be

22 asked. And even if it made a ruling, that would be

23 subject to review by a judge.

24 Q. Now, you graduated in 1969. What did you do

25 at that time, Mr. Lee?

1 A. I went to look for job.

2 Q. And where did you look for a job?

3 A. I went to look for job, and I spent about --

4 I don't know. I don't remember -- maybe four or five

5 month to look at a job.

6 Q. Where did you get a job? Did you get a job?

7 A. I get a job in Columbia University, yes.

8 Q. And what job was that?

9 A. It's a research work relate to meteorology

10 and the weather.

11 MR. SUN: Meteorology.

12 A. Meteorology, weather prediction.

13 Q. Did you have an immediate supervisor in that

14 job?

15 A. I have.

16 Q. What's his name? What was his name?

17 A. I don't remember his name.

18 Q. And how long did you stay at Columbia

19 University?

20 A. Roughly, about one year.

21 Q. During the period that you were at Columbia

22 University, did you ever have any contact with anyone

23 with ties to the People's Republic of China?

24 MR. SUN: Same objection. I'm going to

25 direct him not to answer the question. It's vague and

1 ambiguous, too. What do you mean by "ties"?

2 Q. You want to use another word? Do you suggest

3 a word?

4 MR. SUN: Why don't you ask a better

5 question.

6 Q. Did you have contact with anyone who, in any

7 way, had anything to do with the People's Republic of

8 China?

9 MR. SUN: That's vague and ambiguous. Calls

10 for speculation.

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing him not to

12 answer?

13 MR. SUN: You can answer that question.

14 A. No.

15 Q. During the time, up to the point that you

16 left Columbia University, had you ever traveled to the

17 People's Republic of China?

18 A. Please repeat your question.

19 Q. Up to the point in time that you left

20 Columbia University -- you said you stayed a year --

21 had you ever traveled to the People's Republic of

22 China?

23 A. Do you mean -- do you mean that year or --

24 Q. Anytime in your life up to that point.

25 A. Up to --

1 Q. The point you left Columbia University.

2 A. Did I ever travel to China? Yeah?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No.

5 Q. And what year did you leave Columbia

6 University?

7 A. I don't remember exactly what year.

8 Somewhere around 1971 or '72.

9 Q. Okay. Up to 1971, did you ever have any

10 friends from the People's Republic of China?

11 MR. SUN: What do you me "from"? You mean

12 that they were born there?

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Who came from --

14 MR. SUN: Immigrated there?

15 MR. KLAYMAN: -- who came from. Came from,

16 immigrated, whatever. Who -- who were born in the

17 People's Republic of China.

18 Q. You can answer the question.

19 A. I don't understand your question.

20 Q. No disrespect, but are -- is English not a

21 language that you understand?

22 A. Please let me -- do you want me to answer

23 your --

24 Q. I mean, I want to understand if it's my -- if

25 it's the English language or it's me. Is there a

1 problem with the way I'm phrasing it?

2 A. No, the definition of your question. When

3 you say do I know anybody from People Republic of

4 China -- is that what you mean?

5 Q. Well, this question was, up to 1971, did you

6 ever have any friends who came from or immigrated from

7 the People's Republic of China?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. And up to 1971, you never traveled to

10 the People's Republic of China? Just to clear that up.

11 A. Please repeat your question.

12 Q. Up to, and including, 1971, you never

13 traveled to the People's Republic of China?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Okay. What did you do after you left

16 Columbia University in 1971?

17 A. I don't know is it 1971. I think it's

18 between 1971 or 1972. I don't remember. But I went to

19 work in a company in San Diego.

20 Q. And what company was that?

21 A. I don't remember the name.

22 Q. And what type of work did you do?

23 A. It's a research work.

24 Q. What kind of research did you do?

25 A. Again, it's related to weather prediction and

1 air pollution.

2 Q. Did you study courses on weather prediction

3 when you were in university in Taiwan and at Texas

4 A & M?

5 A. I was major in fluid mechanical, and fluid

6 mechanical has big application for weather prediction.

7 Q. How long did you stay in that job in San

8 Diego?

9 A. I don't remember exactly how long.

10 Q. Well, roughly speaking.

11 A. Roughly, about one year.

12 Q. Why did you leave? Why did you leave?

13 A. The budget was cut, and several people was --

14 got laid off, include me.

15 Q. Was your work considered not to be up to

16 standard?

17 A. I don't understand your question.

18 Q. You were cut because they didn't like your

19 work?

20 A. I don't believe so.

21 Q. And what did you do after you left this

22 company?

23 A. I work at a weather company in Pasadena.

24 Q. A razor company?

25 A. No, no, it's a weather.

1 Q. Weather?

2 A. Relating to -- to weather.

3 Q. Okay. Moved to Pasadena, California, worked

4 for a weather company?

5 A. It's a company relate to weather.

6 Q. And how long -- okay. And what was your job

7 there?

8 A. It has something to do with the air pollution.

9 Q. And, specifically, what did you do concerning

10 air pollution?

11 A. It's relate to the smog -- smog S-M-O-G --

12 smog concentration above Los Angeles basin.

13 Q. And how long did you stay in this job?

14 A. It's approximately more than one year.

15 Q. Why did you leave?

16 A. Because I went to work for a company located

17 in Idaho. I had a better job.

18 Q. And what year was that?

19 A. I don't remember exactly what year.

20 Q. Just give it to me generally. I don't -- we

21 don't need exact precision. What year was that,

22 roughly speaking?

23 A. It's roughly, about 1974 or '75. I don't

24 remember.

25 Q. And what was your job position in this new

1 enterprise in Idaho?

2 A. I'm a research scientist.

3 Q. What were you researching?

4 A. It's in fluid mechanic.

5 Q. Full mechanics?

6 A. Yeah, F-L-U-I-D.

7 MR. SUN: Fluid.

8 Q. Fluid mechanics. And what was the name of

9 this company?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Who was your supervisor at the company, your

12 immediate supervisor?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. How long did you stay at this company?

15 A. Roughly, about three or four years.

16 Q. When did you leave the company, roughly

17 speaking? What year?

18 A. Must be somewhere around 1978.

19 Q. 1978?

20 A. It's probably like in 1977 or 1978. I don't

21 remember. During that period.

22 Q. Up to that time period, did you get married?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When were you married?

25 A. 1970.

1 Q. 1970. And who did you marry in 1970?

2 A. My wife.

3 Q. When did you first meet your wife? I take it

4 her name's Sylvia?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. When did you first meet your wife?

7 A. Toward the end of 1969.

8 Q. Where did you meet her?

9 A. Los Angeles.

10 Q. Okay. Your wife was born in the People's

11 Republic of China, correct?

12 A. She was born in Republic of China, not People

13 Republic of China.

14 Q. Okay. At that time, it was called the

15 Republic of China, is that what you're saying?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Okay. It later, when Mao Tse-tung took over,

18 it became the People's Republic of China, correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. She was born in mainland China, what's called

21 mainland China?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Okay. Not Taiwan?

24 A. But she was born in Republic of China, not

25 People Republic of China.

1 Q. Why is that distinction important?

2 A. It's very important. People -- People

3 Republic of China is communist. Republic of China is

4 not communist.

5 Q. Okay. And when did she come to the United

6 States?

7 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

8 Q. You never asked her that?

9 A. I never asked -- well, I --

10 MR. SUN: Let me object at this point. To

11 the extent that some questions may invade or implicate

12 spousal marital communications privilege, I may

13 object. The questions of this nature, I don't have a

14 problem with, Mr. Klayman. But I just want to indicate

15 to you that there are areas where that privilege might

16 come into play.

17 But you can answer the question, Dr. Lee.

18 A. Can you repeat your question, please?

19 Q. Roughly speaking, when did your wife Sylvia

20 come to the United States?

21 A. To my best recollection, I don't know.

22 Q. Generally speaking?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. How long have you been married to her?

25 A. I marry her in 1970.

1 Q. So you've been married to her 31 years,

2 correct?

3 A. That's about right.

4 Q. In 31 years, you never asked her, and she

5 never told you, when she came to the United States?

6 A. To my best memory, I don't know.

7 Q. But you know generally?

8 A. What do you mean, "generally"?

9 Q. In fact, she came -- she came to the United

10 States during a period when that country that she was

11 born in was under communist rule, correct?

12 MR. SUN: Objection, that assumes facts not

13 in evidence, and I think you're missing a few things,

14 but --

15 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a leading question which

16 I'm entitled to ask. I'm trying to help him because

17 his memory is gone inexplicably blank on this question.

18 MR. SUN: Well, that's what you call it.

19 You've misstated the facts, and that's what I'm

20 suggesting.

21 MR. KLAYMAN: The man is a nuclear scientist.

22 He's a very sharp individual. He knows what I'm

23 saying.

24 MR. SUN: You've assumed that Mrs. Lee came

25 to the United States directly from mainland China, at

1 least that's what I thought your question presumed.

2 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't -- Please don't

3 give --

4 MR. SUN: There is no evidence to support

5 that.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: -- don't give speaking

7 objections to coach your witness, please. We know the

8 game, Brian. We know the game.

9 MR. SUN: If you understand the question, you

10 can answer it.

11 A. Please repeat your question.

12 Q. Now that your counsel has told you the

13 answer, maybe you can answer it. Did your wife come to

14 the United States through another country? Did she

15 live in another country, before she came to the United

16 States, other than mainland China?

17 A. She came to United States from Taiwan.

18 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. See, that's an example.

19 This is improper litigation conduct.

20 MR. SUN: I was trying to help you out, Mr.

21 Klayman.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to be helped out.

23 Okay? Your help, I don't need.

24 MR. SUN: I'll take that into consideration.

25 Q. When did she leave mainland China to go to

1 Taiwan?

2 A. This is third time I tell you, to my best

3 memory, I don't know.

4 Q. So when did she come from Taiwan to the

5 United States?

6 A. Again, as far as I can recall, I don't know.

7 Q. Generally, you don't know?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Mr. Lee, you've taken polygraphs before,

10 haven't you?

11 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance.

12 Q. Have you taken polygraphs?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And you failed some of them, haven't

15 you.

16 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance. Direct him

17 not to answer. What's that got to do with the subject

18 matter of this lawsuit, Mr. Klayman?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: It has to do with truthfulness

20 and credibility.

21 MR. SUN: You know, I'm going to direct him

22 not to answer.

23 Q. When you testified before that you didn't

24 know anyone associated in any way with the People's

25 Republic of China, you answered based upon the fact

1 that your wife had come from Taiwan, that you didn't

2 include her in that group of coming from the People's

3 Republic of China?

4 A. I don't --

5 MR. SUN: Objection, vague and ambiguous,

6 argumentative. Go ahead.

7 A. I don't understand your question. Can you

8 repeat again?

9 Q. I asked you a question that, up to 1971, did

10 you know anyone who was associated in any way with the

11 People's Republic of China, and you said no. Do you

12 remember that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And the reason you didn't include your

15 wife in that category is because you're claiming she

16 came from Taiwan --

17 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.

18 Q. -- is that correct?

19 MR. SUN: Vague and ambiguous.

20 A. Let me repeat. Listen carefully. She was

21 born in China, which is called Republic of China, not

22 People Republic of China when she was born. And she

23 move with her family to Taiwan. I don't know when.

24 And it's also under Peo- -- under Republic of China,

25 not under People Republic of China. And she move from

1 Taiwan to United States also under Republic of China,

2 not People Republic of China. She has nothing to do

3 with People Republic of China. Is that clear?

4 Q. Well, you don't remember the dates when she

5 left. So as far as she know, she may have left the

6 People's Republic of China, correct?

7 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.

8 Q. So you didn't tell the truth, did you, when

9 you testified to that?

10 MR. SUN: Objection, instruct the witness not

11 to answer.

12 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

13 MR. SUN: No.

14 Q. What, if anything, did you do after the

15 company -- when did you leave the company in Pasadena?

16 Excuse me, in Idaho? Was that 1978, just to get back

17 into the frame of reference?

18 A. I don't remember, but it must be 1978 or

19 '77. I don't remember.

20 Q. And what did you do in -- in that time

21 period? Did you get another job?

22 A. Yes. I got a job in Argonne National

23 Laboratory in Chicago.