1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
3 NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )
4 Plaintiff, )
5 v. ) Case No. 00-1527-A
6 WEN HO LEE, )
7 Defendant. )
NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )
11 v. ) Case No. 00-1627-A
12 CHARLES E. WASHINGTON, et al.,)
13 Defendants. )
14 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF WEN HO LEE
15 300 Central, Southwest
Albuquerque, New Mexico
16 October 10, 2001
PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL
18 PROCEDURE, this deposition was:
19 TAKEN BY: LARRY KLAYMAN
ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF
21 REPORTED BY: Kendra D. Tellez, NM CCR #205
P D & O Reporting, Inc.
22 Suite 1500E
300 Central, Southwest
23 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2 For the Plaintiff:
3 JUDICIAL WATCH, INC.
Attorneys at Law
4 Suite 725
501 School Street, Southwest
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
By: Larry Klayman
6 John L. Martin
Thomas J. Fitton
For the Defendant Lee:
SIDLEY, AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD
9 Attorneys at Law
1501 K Street, Northwest
10 Washington, D.C. 20005
By: Mr. C. Kevin Marshall
O'NEILL, LYSAGHT & SUN, LLP
13 Attorneys at Law
14 100 Wilshire Boulevard
Santa Monica, California 90401
15 By: Mr. Brian A. Sun
17 FREEDMAN, BOYD, DANIELS, HOLLANDER, GOLDBERG &
18 Attorneys at Law
19 20 First Plaza
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
20 By: Mr. John D. Cline
21 For the Defendant Vrooman:
22 LAW OFFICE OF GARY HOWARD SIMPSON
Attorneys at law
23 9505 Kingsley Avenue,
Bethesda, Maryland 20814
24 By: Ms. Alane Tempchine
1 Also Present: Will Moir (Videographer)
2 Mr. Anthony J. Coppolino
(United States Department of Justice)
Ms. Natalia Leons
4 Robert S. Sinton
5 Kevin Van Hutten
6 (Federal Bureau of Investigation)
7 James E. Green
EXAMINATION OF WEN HO LEE
By Mr. Klayman 9
SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 311
CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 312
6 1. January 4, 2000, letter to Holscher and Cline
from Paula G. Burnett 93
7 2. Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum 102
3. July 28, 2000, letter to Chang from Holscher 166
8 4. Declaration of Robert Vrooman 186
5. Declaration of Washington 186
9 6. Sun memorandum to Ms. Chang, regarding Website
Description of Function and Purposes of
10 the Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund 221
7. December 10, 1999, Press Release 229
11 8. September 19, 1999, Press Release 236
9. Wen Ho Lee Information Packet 243
12 10. Memorandum in support of Motion for
Discovery of Materials Related to Selective
13 Prosecution 245
11. Affidavit of Mr. Michael Lowe 259
14 12. December 13, 1989, memorandum from Vrooman 272
13. Transcript of 60 Minutes interview 298
CERTIFIED QUESTIONS PAGE LINE
1. Certified Question 19 5
3 2. Certified Question 23 19
3. Certified Question 60 19
4 4. Certified Question 77 18
5. Certified Statement 78 1
5 6. Certified Question 78 13
7. Certified Question 85 5
6 8. Certified Question 97 11
9. Certified Question 101 19
7 10. Certified Question 107 24
11. Certified Question 122 13
8 12. Certified Question 123 1
13. Certified Question 123 7
9 14. Certified Question 123 24
15. Certified Question 132 25
10 16. Certified Question 133 5
17. Certified Question 135 8
11 18. Certified Question 136 14
19. Certified Question 136 20
12 20. Certified Question 137 1
21. Certified Question 137 6
13 22. Certified Question 137 12
23. Certified Question 138 24
14 24. Certified Question 140 2
25. Certified Question 154 25
15 26. Certified Question 169 1
27. Certified Question 175 5
16 28. Certified Question 177 23
29. Certified Question 214 17
17 30. Certified Question 215 7
31. Certified Question 219 14
18 32. Certified Question 229 9
33. Certified Question 232 10
19 34. Certified Question 243 7
35. Certified Question 246 1
20 36. Certified Question 258 16
37. Certified Question 261 16
21 38. Certified Question 264 1
39 Certified Question 264 8
22 40. Certified Question 264 14
41. Certified Question 265 6
23 42. Certified Question 265 12
43. Certified Question 267 3
24 44. Certified Question 268 17
45. Certified Question 269 24
25 46. Certified Question 275 23
1 47. Certified Question 283 19
48. Certified Question 284 15
2 49. Certified Question 285 1
50. Certified Question 306 4
3 51. Certified Question 306 24
52. Certified Question 307 4
4 53. Certified Question 307 13
54. Certified Question 307 20
5 55. Certified Question 308 14
56. Certified Question 308 21
6 57. Certified Question 309 2
58. Certified Question 309 8
1 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Today is
2 Wednesday, the 11th of October, 2001. The time is 9:15
3 a.m. I am Will Moir, owner of Will Moir Video
4 Productions, located in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
5 We're here for the deposition of Wen Ho Lee,
6 in the case of Notra Trulock -- excuse me, in the case
7 of Notra Trulock versus Wen Ho Lee, filed in the United
8 States District Court for the District of New Mexico
9 case number, OO-1527-A(E)DBA. This deposition is being
10 videotaped in the presence of Kendra Tellez, with the
11 recording firm of PD&O. This deposition is being held
12 at 300 Central Avenue, Southwest, Suite 1500-East,
13 Albuquerque, New Mexico.
14 Counsel will now state their appearance.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman -- if you could
16 pan to everybody who is here.
17 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you, sir.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, chairman and
19 general counsel of Judicial Watch, on behalf of
20 Plaintiff Notra Trulock.
21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president of
22 Judicial Watch.
23 MR. MARTIN: John Martin, also with Judicial
24 Watch, on behalf of the Plaintiff.
25 MS. TEMPCHIN: Alane Tempchin for Defendant
1 Robert S. Vrooman, on behalf of Gary Simpson and Jack
3 MR. MARSHALL: Kevin Marshall of Sidley,
4 Austin, Brown & Wood, representing Dr. Lee.
5 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
6 MR. SUN: Brian Sun, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun,
7 on behalf of Dr. Lee.
8 MR. COPPOLINO: I'm Anthony Coppolino, with
9 the United States Department of Justice, representing
10 the United States.
11 MR. GREEN: Jim Green, Department of Energy,
12 classification officer.
13 MR. LOWE: Michael Lowe, Federal Bureau of
15 MS. LEONS: Natalia Leons, Federal Bureau of
17 MR. SINTON: Robert Sinton, Federal Bureau of
19 MR. CLINE: John Cline, counsel for Dr. Lee.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the
21 last part.
22 MR. CLINE: Cline, C-L-I-N-E.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: Are were you a law firm?
24 MR. CLINE: Yes.
25 MR. KLAYMAN: What law firm?
1 MR. CLINE: Freedman, Boyd, & Daniels.
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter will
3 now swear in the witness.
4 WEN HO LEE
5 After having been first duly sworn under oath, was
6 questioned and testified as follows:
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Mr. Lee, my name is Larry Klayman -- good
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. -- Counsel for Mr. Trulock. When were you
14 A. I was born December 21st, 1939.
15 Q. Okay. And where were you born?
16 A. Taiwan.
17 Q. What part of Taiwan?
18 A. Sen-Lo-Par (phonetic).
19 Q. Is there a city?
20 A. It's called Nantou.
21 Q. And how's that spelled?
22 A. N-A-N-T-O-U.
23 Q. T-O-U. Okay.
24 A. Somebody T -- somebody's spelling is T-O-W.
25 Q. And -- and run us through, briefly, your
1 educational background.
2 MR. SUN: Mr. Klayman, before Mr -- or Dr.
3 Lee answers the question, which is a perfectly
4 acceptable question, I just want to make a statement
5 for the record, given all the parties that we have here
6 at the table today. There are some folks from the
7 Government here, particularly the gentleman from DOE
8 who is here, I think, as I understand it, as performing
9 a role as a -- what I've been told as a classification
11 And my understanding is that his presence
12 today is to protect against any inadvertent or any type
13 of disclosure of classified information to the extent
14 any of your questioning may go into those areas.
15 And so I just want to put that on the record,
16 and also indicate that, from our perspective, although
17 we're obviously here to answer questions that are
18 pertinent to the litigation that has been brought by
19 Mr. Trulock, we have to make it clear on the record
20 that we think any questions that exceed the scope of
21 questioning which we think has been defined by the
22 District Court in Virginia, we will instruct Dr. Lee
23 not to answer. Again, but we'll see where the questions
24 go before we even venture into that discussion.
25 Also, I believe the gentleman from the video
1 production company -- it's not that he misspoke, but I
2 think he said something about the District of New
3 Mexico. We are in the District of New Mexico, but the
4 case we're talking about is pending in the Eastern
5 District of Virginia. So I would state that for the
7 So, again, sorry to interrupt, but I think I
8 need to make that statement for the record, and I don't
9 know -- Mr. Coppolino is here from the Government as
10 well. I don't know if there is anything else that
11 needs to be added about the presence of these other
12 folks from the Government, but that's my understanding
13 as to why they're present here for this deposition.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's -- it's my
15 understanding, in fact, we have an agreement with the
16 Government, that they are going to have twenty days
17 from the date of availability of the video, which will
18 be today, to go through that video and raise any issues
19 with regard to information which may get into national
20 security areas, as they may claim.
21 However, Mr. Sun, in terms of how this
22 deposition will proceed, it proceeds under the Federal
23 Rules of Civil Procedure. There is no protective order
24 in place which would give you an opportunity to
25 instruct your client not to answer a question, and that
1 would be wholly inappropriate if you decided to do
3 We don't have any intent in going behind --
4 beyond the Court's orders, but if you do instruct your
5 client not to answer, obviously, we're going to have to
6 move for attorney's fees and costs, because it's going
7 to require us to go through a briefing process and come
8 back here, and I hope that you won't do that. That's
9 not the way depositions are conducted.
10 MR. SUN: Well, I'm sure you will --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll have an opportunity, in
12 other words, in that twenty days, if you want to make
13 any kind of argument with regard to a question you
14 might want to move to strike or you might want to do
15 this or that, you can do that. But this is going to be
16 a very slow process if we're going to have to go
17 through that, and it would be wholly inappropriate.
18 MR. SUN: Well, Mr. Klayman, I think you will
19 do what you think is appropriate on behalf of your
20 client, and we will do the same for our client.
21 I will also make the observation that I've
22 instructed my client, because of the number of parties
23 present and their different interests, that he should
24 pause for a moment after every question posed to him to
25 make sure that the Government has an opportunity to
1 speak up, if they think it necessary or appropriate in
2 light of your questioning. I just want that clear for
3 the record, that Dr. Lee is doing that at -- largely at
4 my direction.
5 So other than these preliminary statements,
6 I'm -- we're ready to proceed.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and there is one other
8 statement that should be cleared. I'm not saying this
9 for the record, because we can brief it, but I hope
10 you'll take it into account, is that you have an actual
11 or potential conflict of interest here, given the fact
12 that, as alleged in the Complaint, Dr. Lee and his
13 agents published defamatory information about our
14 client. And to the extent that you instruct the client
15 not to answer, it could be perceived to be that you're
16 protecting yourself as much as you're protecting him.
17 And that's why I hope that you will not exercise that
18 in an overbearing way.
19 I just warn you about this right now, because
20 we've gone through this before. In fact, you and I
21 have been in depositions before.
22 MR. SUN: The only part that's accurate about
23 your last statement is that we've been in depositions
24 before. Other than that, we're ready to proceed, and
25 the record will speak for itself.
1 If you think you have some motions you want
2 to bring, feel free to bring those motions. It's your
3 time today, so you can spend them any way you want.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it is my time. I'm just
5 hoping that you don't try to limit my time by not
6 having him answer questions and putting things on the
7 record which are not necessary. This was wholly
8 unnecessary. The Rules of Civil Procedure govern this
10 MR. SUN: I agree with that part.
11 MR. COPPOLINO: If I may just briefly state,
12 Mr. Klayman correctly stated that we have reached a
13 stipulation that the transcript of this deposition
14 would be sealed from public disclosure for a period of
15 20 days following receipt of the video in order for
16 there to be a review as to whether there was an
17 inadvertent disclosure of classified information at the
18 deposition. However, I want to make clear that this is
19 not a classified proceeding. And that to the extent
20 classified information may be -- may be responsive to a
21 question or that a question may risk the disclosure of
22 classified information, the United States would object
23 and would instruct that classified information not be
24 disclosed in response to a question.
25 Mr. Sun indicated correctly that I have a
1 classification official from the Department of Energy,
2 and also from the FBI, to assist any party or counsel
3 that wishes to confer so that we can avoid the
4 disclosure of classified information, and that is why
5 those individuals are there. If either counsel or Mr.
6 -- or Dr. Lee or Mr. Sun wish to confer about an issue
7 as to whether it might disclose classified information,
8 we're happy to do that.
9 To the extent we are certain that the
10 question calls for classified information, we would
11 object and instruct that classified information not be
12 disclosed in response to the question.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Same statements with regard to
14 that. If you -- if you so instruct the witness, given
15 the issues involved here, you do it at your own risk.
16 One other point is that it's my understanding
17 that Wen Ho Lee -- obviously, it's a matter of public
18 record -- has reached a plea agreement with the
19 Government. That plea agreement basically closes all
20 issues. I don't understand what the trepidation would
21 be in having him answer questions as long as he answers
22 truthfully those questions, notwithstanding national
23 security issues.
24 So, Mr. Sun, to the extent that you instruct
25 him not to answer, there would be no basis in doing
1 that unless the Government imposed a national security
3 MR. SUN: Well, there'll be a number of
4 reasons why counsel could instruct a witness not to
5 answer, including, but not limited to, privilege,
6 attorney/client privilege, spousal privilege, any of a
7 number of proper invocations of privilege that would
8 allow for the witness to be directed not to answer a
9 question. And there also are issues regarding
10 relevance, but, again, until we hear your questions --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, but you -- you posed your
12 statement based on the scope of Court orders, and that
13 would be inappropriate at this point in time.
14 MR. SUN: I disagree with you.
15 Q. Mr. Lee, run us through your educational
16 background, briefly.
17 A. I got my --
18 Q. From -- from high school on up.
19 A. I finished high school in Taiwan and bachelor
20 degree in Taiwan, and I --
21 Q. Okay. Where did you go to high school in
23 A. Kelung, K-E-L-U-N-G.
24 Q. And where is that located?
25 A. Kelung.
1 Q. And when did you graduate?
2 A. I don't remember. I think --
3 Q. Roughly speaking.
4 A. About 1959, roughly.
5 Q. And what happened after high school?
6 A. I went to college.
7 Q. Where did you go to college?
8 A. Cheng Kung University.
9 Q. How's that spelled?
10 A. C-H-E-N-G, K-U-N-G.
11 Q. Two words?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And where is that located?
14 A. It's Tainan, T-A-I-N-A-N.
15 Q. And what did you specialize in at Cheng Kung
16 University? What was your major?
17 A. Mechanical engineering.
18 Q. Did you graduate?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. During your time -- and when did you graduate?
21 A. 1963.
22 Q. 1963?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. During your period at Cheng Kung University,
25 were you a member of any associations or groups?
1 MR. SUN: Vague and ambiguous.
2 MR. MARSHALL: What's the relevance of that
4 Q. Were you a member of any student
6 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you have any contact with any people who
9 had allegiance to the People's Republic of China?
10 MR. MARSHALL: Relevance.
11 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance, vague and
13 MR. KLAYMAN: By the way, under the Rules of
14 Civil Procedure, you only have to object as to form;
15 otherwise, all you're doing is ticking off time here.
16 You can preserve all of your substantive objections
17 under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
18 MR. SUN: I think I'm doing it
19 appropriately. I'm not making argumentative objections
20 and statements --
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm just telling you, we
22 can move it along quickly if you just say "Objection,"
23 because all of your substantive objections are
25 MR. SUN: I'll object as I see fit.
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll move as we see fit.
2 MR. SUN: Very well.
3 Do you remember the question?
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 Q. Were you associ- -- did you have any contact
6 with groups that had ties to the People's Republic of
8 MR. SUN: Let me ask you about time frame.
9 What time frame are you talking about?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: When he was in college at Cheng
12 MR. SUN: Okay. My understanding is the
13 scope of this deposition is to focus on time frames
14 between 1995 and the present. I don't see the
15 connection between your line of questioning and the
16 subject matter of this Complaint. If you could state
17 some for the record, I'd be willing to --
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't have to state anything
19 for the record.
20 MR. SUN: All right. I'm going to direct the
21 witness not to answer.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: You're just running out the
23 clock, Mr. Lee -- Mr. Sun.
24 MR. SUN: I've directed my client not to
25 answer. You can move on.
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, I think you understand the
2 basis of it. Okay. He was under an investigation.
3 I'll give you this -- this courtesy at this point. I'm
4 trying to save time here, because there's a one-day
5 limitation initially, before we have to move for more
6 time. But he was under investigation for allegations
7 of espionage with the People's Republic of China and,
8 consequently, this is a relevant issue.
9 You are alleging that your client was
10 investigated because he's Chinese. We are saying he
11 was not investigated because he was Chinese, and our
12 client was defamed.
13 There are bases for investigation that might
14 hinge on whether or not he had prior contacts with the
15 People's Republic of China. That's the basis of it.
16 MR. SUN: Well, I disagree with you to this
17 extent, Mr. Klayman: My understanding of your lawsuit
18 is that this is a libel defamation lawsuit brought by
19 Mr. Trulock against Dr. Lee. As I understand the
20 Complaint, it has to do with statements allegedly made
21 in court about -- by other individuals about your
22 client. And I don't see how -- whether or not my
23 client may know some people from 30-plus years ago has
24 anything to do with that subject matter, and for that
25 reason, I'm directing him not to answer.
1 This is not going to be a deposition where
2 you try to reopen a Government investigation that is
3 now closed. I think it's appropriate for you to ask
4 questions that involve the subject matter of the
5 Complaint. I believe that there have been rulings by
6 the district court in the Eastern District of Virginia
7 that have confirmed my viewpoint in that regard.
8 So until I'm persuaded otherwise, I think
9 your questioning should focus on the subject matter of
10 the lawsuit, which are these statements, declarations,
11 whatever they're called, that were -- are the subject
12 of your Complaint. And if you would do that, I think
13 you'd make better use of your time today.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we will make good use of
15 our time, and we will be moving for appropriate relief
16 and attorney's fees and costs if this continues. There
17 is nothing that limits our deposition. You should have
18 read the record before you came here today, Mr. Sun,
19 before you attempted to obstruct -- obstruct it, as
20 you're now doing.
21 We are entitled to get into all issues here,
22 and there have been no such rulings with any such
24 MR. SUN: Once again, I disagree.
25 MR. KLAYMAN: So you instruct him not to
2 MR. SUN: I instruct him not to answer.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. That means mark
4 the record at this point.
5 Q. Were you a member of any student
7 MR. SUN: Asked and answered.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you defending him or
9 yourself, Mr. Sun?
10 MR. SUN: You can answer the question.
11 A. Would you please repeat the question?
12 Q. Were you a member of any student
14 A. To my best memory, I don't remember. It's
15 been a while.
16 Q. After you graduated from Cheng Kung
17 University, what did you do at that time?
18 MR. SUN: Educationwise?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Either professionally or
21 A. I stayed in Taiwan for one year, and then I
22 come to this country.
23 Q. What year did you come to this country?
24 A. 1964.
25 Q. And why did you come to this country?
1 A. I came for school, for education.
2 Q. And where did you go to school?
3 A. Texas A & M.
4 Q. And what did you study there?
5 A. Mechanical engineering.
6 Q. Had you received, what, a Bachelor of Science
7 at Cheng Kung in Taiwan?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And you went to Texas A & M to get a master's
10 degree or a doctorate degree?
11 A. Both.
12 Q. And when did you graduate from Texas A & M?
13 A. Towards the end of 1969.
14 Q. And what did you graduate with? What degrees?
15 A. Ph.D.
16 Q. During your time at Texas A & M, were you a
17 member of any student organizations?
18 A. To my best memory, I don't remember this.
19 Q. Did you have contact with anyone or any
20 entity with ties to the People's Republic of China?
21 MR. MARSHALL: Same objection.
22 MR. SUN: Same objection. Is there --
23 MR. KLAYMAN: Who am I getting two objections
24 from now?
25 MR. SUN: You're getting an objection from
1 counsel for Dr. Lee. Objection, relevance. And I'm
2 going to direct him not to answer that question.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
4 Q. During the time that -- during your period
5 that you lived in Taiwan, did you ever travel to the
6 People's Republic of China?
7 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, could you repeat the
9 Q. During the time that you lived in Taiwan, Mr.
10 Lee, did you ever travel to the People's Republic of
12 MR. MARSHALL: Objection to that, relevance.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Who is -- is he with you?
14 MR. SUN: Yes, he is.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Can I just have one
16 counsel make objections? That's usually the way it's
17 done at depositions.
18 MR. MARSHALL: Let me say something just to
19 clarify the relevance question and the basis for what
20 Mr. Sun has said. There have been --
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, who is -- who is
22 defending this deposition?
23 MR. MARSHALL: Both of us.
24 MR. SUN: Both of us are. Mr. Marshall's
25 going to make a statement for the record, Mr. Klayman,
1 so just let him --
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, who's going to handle
4 MR. SUN: I will handle the objections. Mr.
5 Marshall will make a statement for the record now.
6 MR. MARSHALL: There have been two document
7 requests to Dr. Lee prior to the document requests that
8 accompanied this Notice of Deposition. Dr. Lee
9 objected to both of them. You brought a Motion to
10 Compel to overcome those objections, and both your
11 Motions to Compel lost. I take it that the judge's
12 rulings on both of those Motions to Compel define the
13 limits of relevance in this case.
14 And I know that Mr. Klayman is well aware of
15 the judge's rulings. Among the -- the rule -- our
16 objections was that 1995 to the present is the only
17 relevant time period.
18 In addition, you twice asked for documents
19 about Mr. Lee's travels to China. We objected both
20 times, and, again, the judge ruled in our favor both
21 times. That's why this question's out of bounds, and
22 that's why most of the questions you've asked so far
23 are out of bounds. And that's the reason for Mr. Lee's
24 -- for Mr. Sun's objections, although relevance is not
25 generally a reason for telling a client not to answer,
1 if you persist in asking questions that are clearly not
2 relevant of the judge's orders, our only conclusion can
3 be you're trying to harass our client.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: My only conclusion is that
5 you're trying to harass us and run out the clock. I'm
6 asking background information -- background information
7 here. You just stated that most of my questions were
8 irrelevant. I asked two questions, as to whether he
9 was associated with certain student organizations and
10 if he traveled to China. That question is clearly
11 background information. I'm entitled to it.
12 In addition, you're talking about a very
13 limited ruling of a court order, which, frankly, is on
14 appeal to a judge. It was made by a magistrate at the
15 time. Those are on appeal. And these matters are not
16 even bearing with getting background information. So
17 if you want to persist and just obstruct the
18 deposition, you may proceed. You'll do it at your own
19 risk, but I'm entitled to ask it.
20 MR. SUN: My point is simply that the limits
21 of relevance in this case are quite clearly
22 established, and we're going to proceed on that basis.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you can do what you want,
24 but just don't run out the clock for me.
25 MR. SUN: No, Larry, let me make this
1 suggestion, see if you agree with it, so that we can --
2 we can deal with this issue. If you would agree that
3 we have a standing objection on relevance throughout
4 your entire taking of depositions today, then I won't
5 have to interrupt each time and say, "Objection,
6 relevance." That's one proposal I would make you to
7 you now.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. You can have
10 MR. SUN: You stipulate on the record that
11 we having a standing objection on relevance
12 throughout -- for every question posed in the
13 deposition. Okay? Just hear me out. And then unless
14 I direct my client not to answer, I will -- you know,
15 basically, Dr. Lee, you'll answer the question. All
17 THE WITNESS: Um-hmm.
18 MR. SUN: And -- but the stipulation's got to
19 be understanding proviso that I'm not waiving any
20 relevance objections to any questions and that I -- I'm
21 going to -- in doing so, that when I direct Dr. Lee not
22 to answer, it's going to be because we determine at
23 some point that the questioning has really gone beyond
24 the scope to a level where we believe, as previously
25 stated, we will direct Dr. Lee not to answer.
1 This proposal is designed, Mr. Klayman, to
2 avoid you being concerned about running out the clock,
3 avoid speeches by counsel, and allow you to proceed
4 with the deposition, hopefully in a more orderly way.
5 I make that proposal to you in the spirit of trying to
6 move this along.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: You always have that. The
8 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure provides that, so I
9 don't have to stipulate to it. But I'll even stipulate
10 to it, because it is the law.
11 In answer to Counsel's question about what
12 the magistrate ruled, he ruled that a request asking
13 for all documents concerning the PRC was overly broad.
14 Okay? He did not say we could not get into these
15 areas, and these areas are clearly relevant. You are
16 claiming that our client singled your client out
17 because he is ethnic Chinese. We're saying that is not
18 the case; that there was a valid basis to investigate
19 him. And, obviously, one of the bases the people used
20 to investigate individuals who are being accused of
21 breaches of national security are contacts with foreign
22 powers that are adverse to the United States, and that
23 was a legitimate reason to investigate him.
24 So it's quite relevant. And there is no
25 order saying we cannot get into it. So do you this at
1 your own risk.
2 MR. SUN: Well, Mr. Klayman, as I understand
3 the judge's rulings and the -- and the motions that
4 were litigated -- and, one, I know of no stay in
5 effect, so believe the judge's order is still in effect
6 unless overruled by a reviewing court -- is that it's
7 really focused on what Mr. Trulock knew, what Dr. Lee
8 knew, what statements were made that might have
9 allegedly defamed or libeled Mr. Trulock. And I
10 believe that's the proper focus of your examination.
11 It isn't what other people might have known or what
12 other things might have occurred outside the rubric of
13 Dr. Lee's knowledge or Mr. Trulock's knowledge.
14 So that's where I believe the proper focus
15 is. Again, to save time, we've agreed that we'll have
16 a standing objection on relevance, then I will only
17 speak up when necessary to invoke privilege objections
18 or to direct Dr. Lee not to answer because I believe
19 the scope of the question has gone beyond the pale.
20 And this way, we can move along faster, and I don't
21 have to speak up as much and disrupt your flow.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Why -- why do you have to
23 repeat that? By repeating, again, you're running out
24 the clock. That's what you're doing. It's quite clear
25 what your strategy is here. So I just say, let it
1 be, let the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure govern.
2 If you have a problem with a question, if I've gone
3 beyond the scope, you have an opportunity to move to
4 strike. And he's got -- he, in effect, has total
5 immunity now as long as he tells the truth. He's
6 already been convicted of a crime.
7 MR. SUN: Well, do you accept my proposal or
8 not, Mr. Klayman?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I accept your proposal, because
10 it's the Rules of Civil Procedure, so stop. Let me
11 answer my -- let me ask my questions. If you have a
12 problem with the responses, then you can move to
13 strike, but these are relevant questions.
14 MR. SUN: I'm agreeing to my proposal, and
15 we'll proceed accordingly.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: These questions are also
17 relevant as to state of mind, intent, and -- and issues
18 involving malice, if, indeed, that becomes an issue in
19 the case. The Court has not made any rulings, as of
20 yet, as to whether my client is a public figure or
21 not. And consequently these questions need to be
22 asked. And even if it made a ruling, that would be
23 subject to review by a judge.
24 Q. Now, you graduated in 1969. What did you do
25 at that time, Mr. Lee?
1 A. I went to look for job.
2 Q. And where did you look for a job?
3 A. I went to look for job, and I spent about --
4 I don't know. I don't remember -- maybe four or five
5 month to look at a job.
6 Q. Where did you get a job? Did you get a job?
7 A. I get a job in Columbia University, yes.
8 Q. And what job was that?
9 A. It's a research work relate to meteorology
10 and the weather.
11 MR. SUN: Meteorology.
12 A. Meteorology, weather prediction.
13 Q. Did you have an immediate supervisor in that
15 A. I have.
16 Q. What's his name? What was his name?
17 A. I don't remember his name.
18 Q. And how long did you stay at Columbia
20 A. Roughly, about one year.
21 Q. During the period that you were at Columbia
22 University, did you ever have any contact with anyone
23 with ties to the People's Republic of China?
24 MR. SUN: Same objection. I'm going to
25 direct him not to answer the question. It's vague and
1 ambiguous, too. What do you mean by "ties"?
2 Q. You want to use another word? Do you suggest
3 a word?
4 MR. SUN: Why don't you ask a better
6 Q. Did you have contact with anyone who, in any
7 way, had anything to do with the People's Republic of
9 MR. SUN: That's vague and ambiguous. Calls
10 for speculation.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing him not to
13 MR. SUN: You can answer that question.
14 A. No.
15 Q. During the time, up to the point that you
16 left Columbia University, had you ever traveled to the
17 People's Republic of China?
18 A. Please repeat your question.
19 Q. Up to the point in time that you left
20 Columbia University -- you said you stayed a year --
21 had you ever traveled to the People's Republic of
23 A. Do you mean -- do you mean that year or --
24 Q. Anytime in your life up to that point.
25 A. Up to --
1 Q. The point you left Columbia University.
2 A. Did I ever travel to China? Yeah?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. No.
5 Q. And what year did you leave Columbia
7 A. I don't remember exactly what year.
8 Somewhere around 1971 or '72.
9 Q. Okay. Up to 1971, did you ever have any
10 friends from the People's Republic of China?
11 MR. SUN: What do you me "from"? You mean
12 that they were born there?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Who came from --
14 MR. SUN: Immigrated there?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: -- who came from. Came from,
16 immigrated, whatever. Who -- who were born in the
17 People's Republic of China.
18 Q. You can answer the question.
19 A. I don't understand your question.
20 Q. No disrespect, but are -- is English not a
21 language that you understand?
22 A. Please let me -- do you want me to answer
23 your --
24 Q. I mean, I want to understand if it's my -- if
25 it's the English language or it's me. Is there a
1 problem with the way I'm phrasing it?
2 A. No, the definition of your question. When
3 you say do I know anybody from People Republic of
4 China -- is that what you mean?
5 Q. Well, this question was, up to 1971, did you
6 ever have any friends who came from or immigrated from
7 the People's Republic of China?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. And up to 1971, you never traveled to
10 the People's Republic of China? Just to clear that up.
11 A. Please repeat your question.
12 Q. Up to, and including, 1971, you never
13 traveled to the People's Republic of China?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Okay. What did you do after you left
16 Columbia University in 1971?
17 A. I don't know is it 1971. I think it's
18 between 1971 or 1972. I don't remember. But I went to
19 work in a company in San Diego.
20 Q. And what company was that?
21 A. I don't remember the name.
22 Q. And what type of work did you do?
23 A. It's a research work.
24 Q. What kind of research did you do?
25 A. Again, it's related to weather prediction and
1 air pollution.
2 Q. Did you study courses on weather prediction
3 when you were in university in Taiwan and at Texas
4 A & M?
5 A. I was major in fluid mechanical, and fluid
6 mechanical has big application for weather prediction.
7 Q. How long did you stay in that job in San
9 A. I don't remember exactly how long.
10 Q. Well, roughly speaking.
11 A. Roughly, about one year.
12 Q. Why did you leave? Why did you leave?
13 A. The budget was cut, and several people was --
14 got laid off, include me.
15 Q. Was your work considered not to be up to
17 A. I don't understand your question.
18 Q. You were cut because they didn't like your
20 A. I don't believe so.
21 Q. And what did you do after you left this
23 A. I work at a weather company in Pasadena.
24 Q. A razor company?
25 A. No, no, it's a weather.
1 Q. Weather?
2 A. Relating to -- to weather.
3 Q. Okay. Moved to Pasadena, California, worked
4 for a weather company?
5 A. It's a company relate to weather.
6 Q. And how long -- okay. And what was your job
8 A. It has something to do with the air pollution.
9 Q. And, specifically, what did you do concerning
10 air pollution?
11 A. It's relate to the smog -- smog S-M-O-G --
12 smog concentration above Los Angeles basin.
13 Q. And how long did you stay in this job?
14 A. It's approximately more than one year.
15 Q. Why did you leave?
16 A. Because I went to work for a company located
17 in Idaho. I had a better job.
18 Q. And what year was that?
19 A. I don't remember exactly what year.
20 Q. Just give it to me generally. I don't -- we
21 don't need exact precision. What year was that,
22 roughly speaking?
23 A. It's roughly, about 1974 or '75. I don't
25 Q. And what was your job position in this new
1 enterprise in Idaho?
2 A. I'm a research scientist.
3 Q. What were you researching?
4 A. It's in fluid mechanic.
5 Q. Full mechanics?
6 A. Yeah, F-L-U-I-D.
7 MR. SUN: Fluid.
8 Q. Fluid mechanics. And what was the name of
9 this company?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. Who was your supervisor at the company, your
12 immediate supervisor?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. How long did you stay at this company?
15 A. Roughly, about three or four years.
16 Q. When did you leave the company, roughly
17 speaking? What year?
18 A. Must be somewhere around 1978.
19 Q. 1978?
20 A. It's probably like in 1977 or 1978. I don't
21 remember. During that period.
22 Q. Up to that time period, did you get married?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When were you married?
25 A. 1970.
1 Q. 1970. And who did you marry in 1970?
2 A. My wife.
3 Q. When did you first meet your wife? I take it
4 her name's Sylvia?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. When did you first meet your wife?
7 A. Toward the end of 1969.
8 Q. Where did you meet her?
9 A. Los Angeles.
10 Q. Okay. Your wife was born in the People's
11 Republic of China, correct?
12 A. She was born in Republic of China, not People
13 Republic of China.
14 Q. Okay. At that time, it was called the
15 Republic of China, is that what you're saying?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Okay. It later, when Mao Tse-tung took over,
18 it became the People's Republic of China, correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. She was born in mainland China, what's called
21 mainland China?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay. Not Taiwan?
24 A. But she was born in Republic of China, not
25 People Republic of China.
1 Q. Why is that distinction important?
2 A. It's very important. People -- People
3 Republic of China is communist. Republic of China is
4 not communist.
5 Q. Okay. And when did she come to the United
7 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
8 Q. You never asked her that?
9 A. I never asked -- well, I --
10 MR. SUN: Let me object at this point. To
11 the extent that some questions may invade or implicate
12 spousal marital communications privilege, I may
13 object. The questions of this nature, I don't have a
14 problem with, Mr. Klayman. But I just want to indicate
15 to you that there are areas where that privilege might
16 come into play.
17 But you can answer the question, Dr. Lee.
18 A. Can you repeat your question, please?
19 Q. Roughly speaking, when did your wife Sylvia
20 come to the United States?
21 A. To my best recollection, I don't know.
22 Q. Generally speaking?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. How long have you been married to her?
25 A. I marry her in 1970.
1 Q. So you've been married to her 31 years,
3 A. That's about right.
4 Q. In 31 years, you never asked her, and she
5 never told you, when she came to the United States?
6 A. To my best memory, I don't know.
7 Q. But you know generally?
8 A. What do you mean, "generally"?
9 Q. In fact, she came -- she came to the United
10 States during a period when that country that she was
11 born in was under communist rule, correct?
12 MR. SUN: Objection, that assumes facts not
13 in evidence, and I think you're missing a few things,
14 but --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a leading question which
16 I'm entitled to ask. I'm trying to help him because
17 his memory is gone inexplicably blank on this question.
18 MR. SUN: Well, that's what you call it.
19 You've misstated the facts, and that's what I'm
21 MR. KLAYMAN: The man is a nuclear scientist.
22 He's a very sharp individual. He knows what I'm
24 MR. SUN: You've assumed that Mrs. Lee came
25 to the United States directly from mainland China, at
1 least that's what I thought your question presumed.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't -- Please don't
3 give --
4 MR. SUN: There is no evidence to support
6 MR. KLAYMAN: -- don't give speaking
7 objections to coach your witness, please. We know the
8 game, Brian. We know the game.
9 MR. SUN: If you understand the question, you
10 can answer it.
11 A. Please repeat your question.
12 Q. Now that your counsel has told you the
13 answer, maybe you can answer it. Did your wife come to
14 the United States through another country? Did she
15 live in another country, before she came to the United
16 States, other than mainland China?
17 A. She came to United States from Taiwan.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. See, that's an example.
19 This is improper litigation conduct.
20 MR. SUN: I was trying to help you out, Mr.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to be helped out.
23 Okay? Your help, I don't need.
24 MR. SUN: I'll take that into consideration.
25 Q. When did she leave mainland China to go to
2 A. This is third time I tell you, to my best
3 memory, I don't know.
4 Q. So when did she come from Taiwan to the
5 United States?
6 A. Again, as far as I can recall, I don't know.
7 Q. Generally, you don't know?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Mr. Lee, you've taken polygraphs before,
10 haven't you?
11 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance.
12 Q. Have you taken polygraphs?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And you failed some of them, haven't
16 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance. Direct him
17 not to answer. What's that got to do with the subject
18 matter of this lawsuit, Mr. Klayman?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: It has to do with truthfulness
20 and credibility.
21 MR. SUN: You know, I'm going to direct him
22 not to answer.
23 Q. When you testified before that you didn't
24 know anyone associated in any way with the People's
25 Republic of China, you answered based upon the fact
1 that your wife had come from Taiwan, that you didn't
2 include her in that group of coming from the People's
3 Republic of China?
4 A. I don't --
5 MR. SUN: Objection, vague and ambiguous,
6 argumentative. Go ahead.
7 A. I don't understand your question. Can you
8 repeat again?
9 Q. I asked you a question that, up to 1971, did
10 you know anyone who was associated in any way with the
11 People's Republic of China, and you said no. Do you
12 remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And the reason you didn't include your
15 wife in that category is because you're claiming she
16 came from Taiwan --
17 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.
18 Q. -- is that correct?
19 MR. SUN: Vague and ambiguous.
20 A. Let me repeat. Listen carefully. She was
21 born in China, which is called Republic of China, not
22 People Republic of China when she was born. And she
23 move with her family to Taiwan. I don't know when.
24 And it's also under Peo- -- under Republic of China,
25 not under People Republic of China. And she move from
1 Taiwan to United States also under Republic of China,
2 not People Republic of China. She has nothing to do
3 with People Republic of China. Is that clear?
4 Q. Well, you don't remember the dates when she
5 left. So as far as she know, she may have left the
6 People's Republic of China, correct?
7 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.
8 Q. So you didn't tell the truth, did you, when
9 you testified to that?
10 MR. SUN: Objection, instruct the witness not
11 to answer.
12 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?
13 MR. SUN: No.
14 Q. What, if anything, did you do after the
15 company -- when did you leave the company in Pasadena?
16 Excuse me, in Idaho? Was that 1978, just to get back
17 into the frame of reference?
18 A. I don't remember, but it must be 1978 or
19 '77. I don't remember.
20 Q. And what did you do in -- in that time
21 period? Did you get another job?
22 A. Yes. I got a job in Argonne National
23 Laboratory in Chicago.
24 MR. SUN: It's A-R-G-O-N-N-E, I think.
25 Q. And what kind of job was that?
1 A. It's a fluid mechanic again.
2 Q. Fluid mechanical?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And how long did you stay in this job?
5 A. Roughly, one year.
6 Q. And why did you leave?
7 A. I got a better offer in Los Alamos.
8 Q. Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago, is
9 that a nuclear laboratory?
10 A. They do unclassify research work.
11 Q. Dealing with nuclear matters?
12 A. They may have some, but -- most of them are
14 Q. Did you work on matters involving nuclear
16 A. I was working on the computer code, which is
17 a fluid mechanic.
18 Q. And does that deal with nuclear?
19 A. It is a two-phase-flow fluid mechanic code.
20 Q. Does it deal with nuclear?
21 MR. SUN: Objection, vague and ambiguous. Do
22 you understand what the term "nuclear" means?
23 Q. Is there anything that relates in any way to
24 nuclear issues? Just answer the question.
25 A. No.
1 Q. Why are you finding difficulty answering my
2 questions? Is it my method of speaking? I'm trying to
3 figure it out so we can move this along.
4 MR. SUN: You don't have to respond to that
5 question. Unless you --
6 Q. Are you having a problem with the way I'm
7 phrasing things?
8 MR. SUN: You can answer that.
9 A. I have a problem with your -- the definition,
10 the vocabulary definition, between you and me, because
11 the way I'm thinking is scientifical definition, and I
13 Q. You don't understand the word "nuclear"?
14 A. I told you, I work on two-phase fluid code,
15 computer code, two-phase fluid. It is a mechan- --
16 fluid mechanic, and we use that for fluid aspect.
17 Q. And I asked you whether that had anything to
18 do with nuclear matters. So is the answer yes?
19 A. The answer -- the question is, What do you
20 mean nuclear with fluid mechanics? Do you know that --
21 do you know the relation between nuclear and fluid
22 mechanic? What -- what do you mean?
23 Q. Did that particular lab, that Aragonne lab,
24 deal with nuclear matters among other matters?
25 A. They also deal with many, many nonnuclear
1 matter, too, Aragonne.
2 Q. But I asked you about nuclear matters.
3 A. I told you, I work on two-phase fluid code,
4 which is a fluid mechanic. And fluid mechanic may have
5 -- can be used for nuclear, maybe not, but I don't know
6 your implication. I don't know your definition.
7 Q. I just simply asked, Did the Argonne National
8 Labs involve itself in some nuclear issues?
9 A. They may. They may.
10 Q. Did they, or did they not?
11 A. They may. I say they may.
12 Q. Did they, or did they not? "May" means they
13 could have. Did they, or did they not, when you worked
15 A. I know they have some people work on reactor
16 safety. Reactor safety.
17 Q. So the answer's yes.
18 A. Well, reactor safety. Well, I told you
20 Q. So the answer's yes.
21 A. I don't know your definition.
22 MR. SUN: The answer is yes to what?
23 A. I don't know your definition.
24 Q. Is a reactor nuclear?
25 A. Reactor can be nuclear; can be nonnuclear.
1 MR. KLAYMAN: That is very instructive in
2 terms of how the witness is answering questions, and
3 I'm not going belabor it. We'll be instructive when we
4 ask for attorney's fees and costs.
5 Q. Now, how did you get your job when you left
6 Argonne National Lab in Chicago?
7 MR. SUN: Mr. Klayman, it's Argonne.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Argonne.
9 Q. Did you then get a job at Los Alamos in New
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Okay. And how did you go about getting that
14 A. What do you mean?
15 Q. How did you get the job? Did you apply for
16 the job?
17 A. I applied, yes.
18 Q. Did you have someone that you knew at Los
19 Alamos that recommended you for the job?
20 A. No, I sent an application form. I sent my
21 resume. That's all.
22 Q. When you worked at Argonne Nuclear Labs, did
23 you have a security clearance?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. When did you get your job at Los Alamos?
1 A. Please repeat your question.
2 Q. When did you get your job at Los Alamos? Was
3 that a difficult question?
4 MR. SUN: Is your question was it difficult,
5 or is your question still when did he get the job?
6 Q. When did you get your job?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to figure
8 out -- maybe you can help -- maybe you can help me, Mr.
9 Sun. Does he not speak English? Is this the problem?
10 MR. SUN: Well, I think he speaks English.
11 We haven't asked for an interpreter. If you think you
12 want to adjourn and get one, it's up to you. We --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then, I'm trying to
14 figure out why he can't answer a simple question.
15 MR. SUN: That's your perspective. Maybe
16 your questions aren't clear or maybe you're asking two
17 questions at once.
18 Q. Okay. Let me repeat it again. When did you
19 get a job at Los Alamos? Is that difficult to
20 understand, Mr. Lee?
21 A. Toward the end of 1978.
22 Q. And what job did you get?
23 MR. COPPOLINO: Hold on for a second, Mr.
24 Klayman. I would just observe that the witness is not
25 going to be able to disclose classified details about
1 his work, but he can certainly describe his duties in a
2 nonclassified manner.
3 MR. SUN: Do you understand what Mr.
4 Coppolino just said?
5 THE WITNESS: No. Can you state again?
6 MR. COPPOLINO: I just stated that the
7 witness can describe his duties at Los Alamos in a
8 nonclassified manner, but is not to divulge the
9 classified nature of any of his work in responding to
10 the question as to what your duties are.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 MR. COPPOLINO: Okay.
13 Q. What job did you get in 1978?
14 A. I get a research work on fluid mechanic.
15 Q. And, generally speaking, what kind of
16 research work?
17 A. I'm working on the computer code which deal
18 with fluid mechanic.
19 Q. And what is the computer code used for?
20 MR. COPPOLINO: Objection. Hold on. I would
21 just state that in answering the question, the witness
22 cannot disclose the application of computer codes to
23 nuclear weapons -- nuclear weapons design manufacture.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you're not saying that
1 the issue of whether or not computer codes are used
2 with relation to nuclear weapons is classified, are
4 MR. COPPOLINO: No, that's not classified.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. That's all I'm
6 looking to get here.
7 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, I was just -- I was
8 really directing my comment to him and not to you.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, I'm not looking to get
10 the computer codes.
11 MR. COPPOLINO: Yeah, I just wanted to tell
12 him that --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Others already have.
14 MR. COPPOLINO: -- in describing his research
15 with respect to computer codes, he cannot describe
16 their application to nuclear weapons design.
17 MR. SUN: Do you understand?
18 THE WITNESS: Say again. I don't quite
20 MR. SUN: Can we take a short break, Mr.
21 Klayman? I need to consult with the Government real
22 quickly about this.
23 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the
24 record. The time is 10:12 a.m.
25 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me put this question on
1 the record so you can consult over this.
2 Q. Do the computer codes have applicability to
3 nuclear weapons? That's my pending questions.
4 (Recess taken.)
5 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.
6 The time is 10:23. Thank you.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I had a question pending, and
8 the Government was going to give its landmark ruling.
9 MR. COPPOLINO: The question was do computer
10 codes have application to nuclear weapons. No
11 objection to that question as long as there's no
12 reference to specific codes.
13 MR. SUN: I think that's a yes-or-no answer.
14 Q. Please answer.
15 A. I -- I -- I don't understand the question.
16 MR. SUN: Could you say it again or --
17 Q. Do computer codes have applicability to
18 nuclear weapons?
19 A. You mean the code I'm working on?
20 Q. Yes, when you -- when you worked for Los
21 Alamos beginning in 1978.
22 A. In 1978, that code has no application to
23 nuclear weapon. Is that okay? I don't know I can
25 Q. So the codes that you first started working
1 on at Los Alamos in 1978 did not have applicability to
2 nuclear weapons?
3 A. To my best knowledge, did not use them for
4 nuclear weapon application. Is that okay?
5 Q. What were they used for?
6 A. It's a reactor safety.
7 Q. Nuclear reactor safety?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. During the time that you worked at Los
10 Alamos, what, in addition to these codes for reactor
11 safety, have you worked on, generally speaking?
12 MR. COPPOLINO: Again, you understand not to
13 mention any code names. Do you understand that?
14 THE WITNESS: I cannot mention.
15 MR. COPPOLINO: You cannot mention code
16 names. Do you understand that?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 MR. COPPOLINO: Okay. Proceed.
19 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, could you repeat the
21 A. Yeah, I'm sorry.
22 Q. Tell me the different things that you've
23 worked on, generally speaking, when you were at Los
25 A. You mean for twenty years?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. For the last twenty years?
3 Q. Yes, yes.
4 A. Generally speaking, I work on computer code
5 and its relate to fluid mechanic for last twenty years.
6 Q. And you also worked on codes, correct?
7 A. Computer code.
8 Q. Computer codes?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And later on, during your career at
11 Los Alamos, those computer codes did relate to nuclear
12 weapons, correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And when did that first occur?
15 A. I don't remember exactly, but it must be
16 around 1981 or '8- -- '80 or '81, somewhere around
18 Q. During the time period -- when did you leave
19 Los Alamos? When were you fired from Los Alamos?
20 A. March 8, 1999.
21 Q. Why were you fired?
22 MR. SUN: Objection. You can answer. Unless
23 I direct you not to answer, you can answer the
25 A. Bill Richardson fire me.
1 Q. Why did he fire you?
2 MR. SUN: Objection, calls for speculation.
3 A. You have to ask him. I don't know why.
4 Q. Yes, to the best of your knowledge, why were
5 you fired?
6 A. I say, you have to ask Bill Richardson. I
7 don't know why he fired me.
8 Q. You have no idea?
9 A. I have no idea.
10 Q. Did it have anything to do with allegations
11 that you had breached national security?
12 MR. SUN: Same objection.
13 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.
14 Q. You have no clue?
15 MR. SUN: Again, Mr. Klayman, no clue as to
16 why Bill Richardson fired him? Is that your question?
17 Q. Yes. You have no clue as to why you were
18 filed by Secretary of Energy Bill Richardson?
19 A. Again, to my best knowledge, I don't know
20 why -- why he fire me. I don't know.
21 Q. Now, up to the point you were fired, you did
22 have conversations with people at Los Alamos that were
23 your supervisors, did you not?
24 MR. SUN: Objection as to time frame. We're
25 talking about 1978 to the present?
1 Q. Generally.
2 A. Please repeat your question.
3 Q. You had supervisors at Los Alamos over the
4 twenty years that you were there, correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Who were your supervisors?
7 MR. SUN: Beginning in '78?
8 Q. Beginning in '78.
9 A. I can only do the best I can recall or I can
10 remember. Some of them I don't remember. In the early
11 time, it's Jim Jackson; and later, this guy called
12 Charlie Hamilton, H-A-M-I-L-T-O-N, Hamilton. I'm try
13 to do the best I can remember. There was a guy call
14 Steve White.
15 Q. Steve White?
16 A. Yeah. There was a guy call Paul Whalen,
17 P-A-U-L, Paul, Whalen, W-H-A-L-E-N. Some of them, I
18 don't remember. But those I can remember.
19 Q. When you were fired, what year was that?
20 A. March 8, 1999.
21 Q. Okay. And who was your supervisor then?
22 A. His name is Dan Butler, D-A-N, B-U-L-T-E-R
24 Q. And what was Mr. Butler's job title?
25 A. To my best knowledge, he may be the acting T
1 Division leader. "T," as theoretical.
2 Q. Right. He told you why you were fired,
3 didn't he?
4 MR. SUN: Foundation.
5 A. I remember he told me -- he show me a list,
6 but I don't remember what the detail.
7 Q. What kind of list?
8 A. It's a piece paper, said, you know, you
9 violated security, you -- something like that.
10 Security. You -- again, to my best memory. I don't
11 remember the detail.
12 Q. Now, this was a very difficult period in your
13 life, wasn't it, Dr. Lee?
14 A. It's very difficult, yes.
15 Q. And it wasn't very long ago, was it?
16 A. It's 1999, March 8th, I told you.
17 Q. Okay. Only about two-and-a-half-years ago?
18 A. Um-hmm.
19 MR. SUN: You should say -- you should say
20 yes or no. The court reporter can't record you?
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes.
22 Q. Consequently, this whole period is very vivid
23 in your memory, is it not?
24 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.
25 A. What do you mean -- say again, your question.
1 Q. You remember very well this period, because
2 it was a difficult period, correct?
3 A. I told you, I was fired March 8, 1999, yes.
4 Q. Okay. And you were fired, based upon what
5 Mr. Butler showed you, for national security
7 MR. SUN: Objection.
8 Q. Correct?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. So what were you told were the reasons
11 for your firing?
12 A. It is not national security. It's the
13 security rule at the lab. It's a security rule at the
14 lab, but not national security, no.
15 Q. So the lab has -- Los Alamos Labs has nothing
16 to do with national security?
17 MR. SUN: That's --
18 A. No, no, my question --
19 Q. That's your opinion?
20 A. No, my question is -- my answer is this: I
21 was fire. Dan Butler give me a list -- a piece of
22 paper, had some list, and some of the list has
23 something to do with a security infraction at the lab
24 and has nothing to do with the national security at
1 Q. So you're saying that violating security
2 rules at the lab does not have anything to do with
3 national security?
4 MR. SUN: Objection, misstates his
5 testimony. It's argumentative.
6 Q. Please answer.
7 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?
8 MR. SUN: Yeah. If you understand his
9 question, sure.
10 A. Please repeat your question.
11 Q. What you're saying is, is that the security
12 rules at Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratories have nothing
13 to do U.S. national security?
14 MR. SUN: That's not what he said.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Please let him answer the
16 question, and don't interrupt.
17 MR. SUN: I'll interrupt when I see fit.
18 A. I don't know whether the security --
19 MR. KLAYMAN: That kind of -- on the record.
20 That kind of attitude is a defiance of the court. I
21 hope that it doesn't continue.
22 MR. SUN: Look, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to
23 represent my client as I think it's appropriate.
24 You're badgering the witness at this point --
25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not badgering anyone.
1 MR. SUN: -- with argumentative questions.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not badgering anything. It
3 was a simple question.
4 MR. SUN: You are badgering the witness.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll let it speak for
7 MR. SUN: It will.
8 Q. Answer the question, please, sir.
9 A. Please repeat your question.
10 Q. Okay. It's your view that the security
11 regulations at Los Alamos Nuclear Labs have nothing to
12 do with U.S. national security? That's what you're
13 saying, correct?
14 A. I didn't say that. I did not say that.
15 Q. So the rules do have something to do with
16 U.S. national security, correct?
17 A. I did not -- I did not say that, too. I'm
18 not agree with you on that either. I don't know.
19 Q. These are -- these are --
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. -- technical rules that aren't that
22 important, that's what you're saying, correct?
23 A. I didn't say that either.
24 MR. LEE: Objection. I'm going to direct him
25 not to answer. This is fruitless. You can move on,
1 Mr. Klayman.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
3 MR. SUN: Certify it.
4 Q. So why were you fired, if these are just
5 technical rules that don't have anything to do with
6 national security?
7 MR. SUN: Objection, calls for speculation,
8 asked and answered.
9 Q. Please answer.
10 A. Please repeat.
11 Q. What were you told was the reason for your
13 A. They told me I violate some security
14 infraction at the lab. That's all I know.
15 Q. They told you specifically what rules you
17 A. I remember one item. Do you want to know
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I remember one item. They said I -- I wrote
21 down a password, computer password, on piece of paper
22 and lock in my drawer, in my office drawer, which
23 was -- has a lock on the door, and the whole -- that's
24 inside the X Division, and then the X Division has --
25 it's behind a fence. If you want to get in, you need a
1 badge to get in. And then there's another badge, the
2 two badge you have to go in there. And they told me I
3 cannot write a password on piece of paper and lock --
4 put in my office. So that part, I remember.
5 Q. And what else were you told about the reasons
6 for your firing?
7 A. I don't remember the other item.
8 Q. Surely you asked why you were being fired,
10 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.
11 A. I don't remember did I ask them why I get
12 fired. I did not ask them.
13 Q. You just accepted it? The firing?
14 A. I didn't --
15 Q. No questions asked?
16 A. I don't remember did I ask them any question
17 why I was fired. I just don't remember today.
18 Q. After you were fired, you were indicted, were
19 you not? You were charged with criminal violations?
20 You don't understand that question?
21 After you were indicted, you were charged
22 with criminal violations of law, correct?
23 Excuse me, after you were fired from your
24 job, the Government later indicted you for criminal
25 violations of law, correct?
1 A. I was fired in March 8th, 1999, and I was
2 indicted in December 10, 1999.
3 Q. And that was -- you were indicted for alleged
4 criminal violations of law, correct?
5 A. I -- I don't understand. I don't know how to
6 answer that question.
7 MR. SUN: It can be answered yes or no. I
8 think Mr. Klayman is just simply asking you were you
9 charged with violations of the law.
10 Q. Were you charged with violating the criminal
12 A. I have to say, according to the indictment,
13 it looks like yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. However, the indictment is argumentable -- I
16 mean, the -- the indictment is wrong. That's what I'm
17 saying. It's not correct. So I don't know how to
18 answer your question.
19 Q. And after you were indicted, you were thrown
20 in prison, correct?
21 A. I was in jail for nine months, yes.
22 Q. You were in solitary confinement?
23 A. That's correct, yes.
24 Q. You complained that you were thrown in
25 solitary confinement because you're Chinese; that you
1 were being discriminated against, correct?
2 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative as to
3 form -- argumentative, vague as to form.
4 Q. Correct?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You have claimed, have you not, that you were
7 indicted for violations of criminal law because you are
8 ethnic Chinese, correct?
9 A. I don't understand your question. Please
11 Q. You have claimed that you were indicted for
12 criminal violations of law because you are ethnic
14 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.
15 MR. MARSHALL: It's also vague. What do you
16 mean by "you"?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, I -- I don't --
18 MR. MARSHALL: Personally?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: -- we don't need -- we don't
20 need objections from two corners. One corner.
21 MR. MARSHALL: This has been a big issue in
22 the case. You should be asking the question --
23 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
24 We don't need talking objections, either. Can we go
25 off the record?
1 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me. We are going
2 off the record. The time is 10:41.
3 (Discussion held off the Record.)
4 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. We're back on
5 the record. The time is 10:43.
6 Q. The question was, is that you -- you have
7 maintained that you were fired because you're ethnic
9 MR. SUN: Before you answer the question,
10 I'm going to make a statement for the record. We went
11 off the record at Mr. Klayman's request. While we were
12 off the record, we had a discussion about Mr. Klayman's
13 complaint that my co-counsel was objecting, as well as
14 I, to questions posed by Mr. Klayman in the
15 deposition. I have advised Mr. Klayman, off the record
16 and on the record, that Mr. Marshall will speak up as
17 appropriate. I will endeavor to be the primary
18 counsel, stating objections on behalf of the witness,
19 so that we have proper flow here. But while we were
20 off the record Mr. Klayman made a number of insulting,
21 derogatory comments to both me and my co-counsel. I
22 think that's wholly inappropriate. I'm not even going
23 to repeat the nature of those derogatory comments here
24 on the record because there are a number of witnesses
25 in this room that witnessed it.
1 I'm going to again request that Mr. Klayman
2 conduct this deposition in a professional, civil manner
3 and try to work out these issues in a professional and
4 appropriate way. Threats to counsel and insults do not
5 work and are wholly unproductive in this process.
6 And -- and, again, I would again ask Mr.
7 Klayman on the record, as I did off the record, to
8 avoid this kind of behavior.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: This question was a direct
10 question which deals with direct issues in this lawsuit
11 which are directly relevant. When you interject
12 speaking objections, and objections which you don't
13 have to make under the Federal Rules of Civil
14 Procedure, which are already preserved, which in fact I
15 already stipulated to, when co-counsel comes in, who
16 apparently doesn't have the same degree of experience
17 that you have, and starts making these kinds of
18 objections as well, at the same time that you're making
19 them, obstructing an ability to get an answer,
20 obviously you're going to get a response from counsel
22 I want this thing to proceed in an orderly
23 fashion, and the very fact that you're interceding with
24 this particular question shows a lack of good faith.
25 MR. SUN: And I disagree. I also --
1 MR. KLAYMAN: And am I upset? Yes.
2 MR. SUN: I also demand that you apologize to
3 Mr. Marshall for the commends you made to him off the
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to apologize for
6 any comments that I made.
7 MR. SUN: Very well. And just for the
8 record, Mr. Marshall is an eminently qualified lawyer.
9 He's clerked for the U.S. Supreme Court. I don't think
10 that your comments would withstand any type of close
11 scrutiny. So you may proceed. Before you proceed, I
12 might say this: Mr. Marshall was stating, before you
13 went off the record, was that this case has already
14 caused there to be litigation over the definition of
15 what the term "you" means, Y-O-U, when you're asking
16 questions of Dr. Lee.
17 And I believe that if Mr. Marshall wants to
18 state for the record what those issues are, he's free
19 to do so. And --
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I've asked that one counsel --
21 MR. SUN: -- and our objections relate to
22 that dispute.
23 MR. KLAYMAN: -- one counsel make one
24 objection at a time. And Mr. Marshall's objections had
25 no relevancy, no bearing. As a former Supreme Court
1 clerk, he should know that the Federal Rules of Civil
2 Procedure do not require him to make objections to
3 obstruct a deposition.
4 MR. SUN: He's not doing that.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Not objections of that sort.
6 And the record will speak for itself. No apologies are
8 Q. Mr. Lee, you have maintained that you were
9 fired because you were ethnic Chinese, correct?
10 MR. SUN: Same objections.
11 A. Let me ask you, when you say "you," you mean
12 me, or you mean my counsel included? Everybody, team,
13 or just me, when you say --
14 Q. You.
15 A. Okay. You -- you say I -- I insist I was
16 fired because of I'm Chinese? Is that your question?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Let me say again. You mean I insist I was
19 fired because I'm Chinese? Am I right? Is that your
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. The answer is no.
23 Q. It has been your position that you were
24 indicted for crimes because you are ethnic Chinese?
25 MR. SUN: Same objections previously stated.
1 A. Again, you say I -- I insist because I was --
2 I'm Chinese. That's why I got indictment? Is that
4 Q. My question was simple. I'll repeat it now
5 for the fifth time. It is your -- it has been your
6 position that you were indicted for crimes by the U.S.
7 Government because you're ethnic Chinese?
8 A. I don't understand what do you mean "is my
9 position." What do you mean that? I'm -- I have
10 limited English understanding here, so that's why I
11 want to ask you.
12 Q. How long have you been in the United States?
13 A. I came here in 1964.
14 Q. 1964. And you took courses on English?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you've lived here now for 37 years?
17 You've spoken English for 37 years?
18 A. I speak Chinese at home most the time.
19 Q. When you communicated with your workers at
20 Los Alamos, was it mostly in English?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you had to have a very good grasp of
23 English to be working at Los Alamos?
24 A. I don't understand what do you mean "grasp."
25 Q. You had to understand English pretty well to
1 get a job at Los Alamos, didn't you?
2 A. I know my English not good, and I know I get
3 a job in Los Alamos. That's all I can tell you.
4 Q. To have a job at Los Alamos is very
5 prestigious, is it not?
6 A. I don't know about that.
7 Q. It's a very important nuclear laboratory, is
8 it not?
9 A. Maybe, but I don't know.
10 Q. And throughout your twenty years, you had a
11 very high-level job there, did you not?
12 MR. SUN: Objection. What do you mean by
13 "high level"?
14 Q. You had a very high-level job there, did you
16 A. Again, can you explain? What do you mean
17 "high level"?
18 Q. What was -- what was your salary when you
19 left Los Alamos? How much were you making per year?
20 A. I believe I was making 82K.
21 Q. $82,000 a year?
22 A. Yes, about that.
23 Q. That's good money, isn't it?
24 A. To my best knowledge, that is very low pay at
25 the lab.
1 Q. Are you saying your position at Los Alamos
2 was not important?
3 A. No, I'm saying I -- compared to other
4 scientists, my pay is low, L-O-W. Compared to the
5 other scientists with my same background and same year
6 experience, my pay is low.
7 Q. Are you saying that you didn't have to do
8 most of your business at Los Alamos in English?
9 A. I didn't say that. I'm saying my pay is low
10 compared to other scientists.
11 Q. So let's -- let's get back to the original
12 question. It has been your position that you were
13 indicted for crimes by the U.S. Government because you
14 are ethnic Chinese, correct?
15 A. Again, I don't know -- let me repeat it. Are
16 you saying I was indict by U.S. Government, and the
17 only reason is because I'm Chinese? Is that your
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. The answer is no.
21 Q. Okay. One reason why you were indicted by
22 the U.S. Government, one reason, is because you are
23 Chinese? That has been your position, correct?
24 MR. SUN: Objection, asked and answered,
25 misstates his testimony, argumentative.
1 Q. Answer, please.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a new question.
3 A. Can you repeat your question?
4 Q. One reason why you were indicted for crimes
5 by the U.S. Government is because you are Chinese.
6 That's been your position, correct?
7 A. Let me see if I understand your question.
8 You saying one of the reasons I was get indicted is
9 because I'm Chinese?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. The answer is no.
12 Q. Okay. Now, one of the reasons that you were
13 investigated for violating security regulations is
14 because you're Chinese. That's been your position,
16 MR. SUN: Objection.
17 A. When you say my "position," are you saying I
18 think that's a reason? I believe that's the reason I
19 got investigate, because I'm Chinese?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Is that your question?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. My best answer is I don't know. I don't know
24 why they investigate me. I don't know why they fire
25 me. Does that satisfy you?
1 Q. Have you ever accused anyone of being a
2 racist in your whole life?
3 A. Repeat your question.
4 Q. Have you ever accused anyone of being a
5 racist in your whole life?
6 A. What do you mean "accuse" in here?
7 Q. "Accuse" means did you ever charge anyone
8 with being a racist in your life.
9 A. The answer is no.
10 Q. And you've never told anyone to do that, have
11 you, on your behalf?
12 MR. SUN: Objection, to the extent that this
13 answer to this question might implicate --
14 MR. KLAYMAN: No speaking objections, please.
15 MR. SUN: -- attorney/client privilege, I'll
16 instruct the witness not to answer. You can answer it,
17 Dr. Lee, as long --
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask about attorneys.
19 MR. SUN: As long as it doesn't implicate any
20 attorney/client communications you can answer the
22 Q. Did you ever tell anyone --
23 MR. KLAYMAN: And that is not subject to
24 attorney/client privilege. So this question is
25 neutral. I'm not agreeing to that.
1 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to claim that anyone
2 else was racist?
3 MR. SUN: Same admonition, Dr. Lee.
4 A. I don't understand your question. Can you
5 repeat it for me?
6 Q. Did you ever order anyone to ever make a
7 claim that anyone that lives on this earth is racist?
8 A. Let me see if I understand your question.
9 Did I ever told somebody to accuse someone, say he is a
10 racist to him? Is that --
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. No. The answer's no.
13 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to claim that you
14 were investigated for violations of security
15 regulations because you're Chinese?
16 A. Say again.
17 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to make the argument
18 that you were investigated for national security
19 violations because you're Chinese?
20 MR. SUN: Same admonitions as before about
21 attorney/client privilege, Dr. Lee, but you can answer
22 the question.
23 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to answer or no?
24 MR. SUN: Yeah, so long as you don't reveal
25 attorney/client communications, you can answer the
2 A. The answer is no.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: My same caveat. You can't make
4 that claim. That's not subject to attorney/client.
5 But we'll just leave that on the record right now.
6 Q. Do you, Dr. Lee, feel that you've been
7 persecuted because you're Chinese? Persecuted by the
8 U.S. Government?
9 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, could you repeat that
10 question? Ask the court reporter --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll repeat it.
12 MR. SUN: Yeah, please.
13 Q. Is it your position that you've been
14 persecuted by the U.S. Government because you're ethnic
16 A. You say prosecute?
17 Q. Persecuted.
18 A. Persecute same as a prosecute?
19 MR. SUN: Well, could you --
20 A. I don't understand.
21 Q. All right. I'll repeat it. I'll repeat it.
22 Were you singled out by the U.S. Government for
23 investigation --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- because you're Chinese? Is that your
2 A. You mean do I feel that way?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I don't know, because I don't know why I was
5 been investigate. I don't know.
6 Q. Okay. Do you ever -- have you -- have you
7 ever met a Notra Trulock?
8 A. No, not in my life.
9 Q. Do you know who he is?
10 A. I don't know who he is.
11 Q. Do you know --
12 A. I know he sue me. That's all.
13 Q. Do you know what he -- what he used to do for
14 the Department of Energy?
15 A. I know he work for DOE. That's all I know.
16 Q. Is Mr. Trulock a racist?
17 A. What?
18 Q. Is Mr. Trulock a racist?
19 A. I don't know anything about him. I can -- I
20 don't know.
21 Q. Did Mr. Trulock single you out for an
22 investigation because you're Chinese?
23 A. I don't know why I was fired. I don't know
24 why -- why I was fired, and I don't know who make that
25 decision I was fire. The only thing I know is Bill
1 Richardson fire me in March 8, 1999.
2 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to say that Mr.
3 Trulock is a racist?
4 MR. SUN: I think that's been asked and
6 A. Say again.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: If that's your position. We'll
8 accept that.
9 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Trulock has been
10 called a racist in the context of your investigation
11 for national security violations?
12 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.
13 A. I don't know anything about the answer. I --
14 I don't know him, and I -- I don't know anything what
15 he do or whether he's a rac -- racist --
16 Q. Racist.
17 A. -- or not. I don't know.
18 Q. Did -- did you tell your lawyers to say that
19 Mr. Trulock is a racist?
20 MR. SUN: Objection, instruct him not to
21 answer, attorney/client privilege.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: No such privilege here.
23 Certify it.
24 MR. SUN: Certify it.
25 Q. Did you -- did you --
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you mocking me, Mr. Sun?
2 MR. SUN: Oh, no, I'm not.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: You are mocking me. Certify
4 that, too.
5 A. Let me ask you, what do you mean "mocking"?
6 Q. Mocking, making fun of me.
7 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
8 MR. SUN: He thinks I'm making fun of him.
9 He's mistaken.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Fortunately, we have an audio
12 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
13 Q. Did you give permission to your lawyers to
14 say that Mr. Trulock had singled you out for an
15 investigation because you are Chinese?
16 MR. SUN: Objection, instruct the witness not
17 to answer. Implicates attorney/client privilege.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: No such thing. Certify it.
19 You are alleged, Mr. Sun, in the Complaint to
20 be an agent of Dr. Lee, and by instructing him not to
21 answer, you are obstructing this case, and you have a
22 conflict of interest, and you should withdraw
24 MR. SUN: Then that matter, to the extent you
25 think it's relevant or should be raised, should be
1 addressed by the Court. Okay? I think it's totally
2 frivolous for you to suggest that. So let's move on.
3 Q. Has anyone -- has it come to your attention
4 -- strike that.
5 You are aware that you were investigated for
6 national security violations?
7 A. I don't know about that.
8 Q. You are aware that you were investigated for
9 alleged security violations?
10 A. I don't know why they investigate on me.
11 Does that answer your question? I -- to my best
12 knowledge, I don't know.
13 Q. Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of
14 Robert Vrooman?
15 A. I know he work for the Los Alamos National
16 Lab, yes.
17 Q. And what was his position?
18 A. I don't know his position. I know he work
19 something -- had something to do with the security, to
20 my best knowledge. That's all I know. I don't know
21 his position.
22 Q. Do you know whether or not he has ever stated
23 that Mr. Trulock singled you out because you're Chinese?
24 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.
25 Q. Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of
1 Charles Washington?
2 A. To my best memory, I seen that name on
3 newspaper some time ago. I don't know when.
4 Q. Do you know whether or not Charles Washington
5 ever said that you were singled out for investigation
6 by Mr. Trulock because you are ethnic Chinese?
7 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.
8 Q. These issues were never raised with you by
9 anyone? This was never brought to your attention by
10 anyone --
11 A. I don't --
12 Q. -- that Mr. Vrooman and Mr. Washington said
13 that you were singled out for investigation by Mr.
14 Trulock because you're ethnic Chinese?
15 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat your question?
16 Q. These statements by Mr. Vrooman and Mr.
17 Washington, if true, that you were singled out for an
18 investigation by Mr. Trulock because you're Chinese,
19 you've never heard that discussed before?
20 MR. SUN: Objection, vague and ambiguous.
21 Q. Correct?
22 A. To my best knowledge, I don't believe I have
23 seen any statement like what you just said. To my best
24 memory. I don't -- I don't believe I have seen any
25 statement like exactly what you said.
1 Q. Okay. You are aware that one of the bases of
2 the Government's investigation was over whether or not
3 information concerning the W88 warhead had been
4 disclosed to the Chinese?
5 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.
6 A. Can you repeat your question?
7 Q. You are aware that one of the bases of the
8 Government's investigation of you --
9 A. One of the basis?
10 Q. One of the reasons.
11 A. One the reasons, okay.
12 Q. Yes. Was because the -- because they
13 believed that the information about the W88 nuclear
14 warhead had been disclosed to the Chinese?
15 A. I'm sorry, you have to repeat one more time.
16 Q. You were aware that one of the reasons why
17 you were investigated was over allegations that
18 information about the W88 nuclear warhead --
19 A. Okay. Let me repeat back --
20 Q. -- was disclosed to the Chinese?
21 A. Let me repeat your question, see if I
22 understand your question.
23 Q. Sure.
24 A. Are you saying I am aware or I know the
25 reason -- one of the reason the Government investigate
1 on me is because the W88 information was leaked to
2 China? Is that what you're saying?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Again, I say I don't know. To the best
5 knowledge, I don't know why the Government investigate
6 on me. I don't know why.
7 Q. And another reason why you were investigated
8 is because you had taken trips to China, to the
9 People's Republic of China?
10 A. Again, I don't know why the Government
11 investigate on me. I don't know why.
12 Q. You don't know from any source why?
13 A. I don't know why -- what is the reason the
14 Government investigate on me. I don't know the
15 reason. I don't know why.
16 Q. No one ever told you that? No one ever told
17 you that, that one bases for investigating you is
18 because you had traveled to the People's Republic of
20 A. To my best memory, I don't know why the
21 Government investigate on me, and I don't know -- did
22 anybody told me? I don't remember anybody told me.
23 They investigate me because I went to China? Is that
24 your question?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. I -- I just don't remember.
2 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that one reason why
3 you were investigated is because you had had meetings
4 with nuclear scientists of the People -- People's
5 Republic of China.
6 MR. SUN: You know, at this point, I need to
7 interpose an objection, that although I may allow some
8 of this questioning to continue, I think it's now
9 venturing into the realm of -- of areas that are
10 outside the scope of this litigation. But I will allow
11 the witness to answer some more questions in the spirit
12 of trying to give you some background and context for
13 the matters that I do believe are within the scope of
14 this litigation. So you can answer the question.
15 A. The question -- the answer is, up to today, I
16 still don't know why the Government investigate on me.
17 I don't know why, and, therefore, I cannot answer all
18 the questions you just asked, because --
19 Q. All right. Are you aware that the Government
20 was concerned about the contacts that your wife Sylvia
21 Lee had with individuals in the People's Republic of
23 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.
24 Q. And that was a reason for an investigation?
25 A. Repeat, please.
1 Q. Are you aware that another reason for the
2 Government's investigation concerned the contacts
3 which -- which your wife Sylvia Lee had with
4 individuals with the People's Republic of China?
5 A. I say again, I don't understand why I was
6 being investigate, and I don't know why the Government
7 investigate on me. I don't know the reason.
8 Q. Have you ever heard of someone by the name of
9 Hu Side.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: How is that pronounced?
12 MR. SUN: Hu Side.
13 Q. Hu Side.
14 A. I have heard the name, yes.
15 Q. You met with him, did you not?
16 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance. What's the
17 relevance of that question to this litigation, Mr.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: It speaks for itself. We're
20 talking about bona fide reasons for investigation.
21 MR. SUN: But, we're not -- I don't -- does
22 it have some relevance to the subject matter of the
23 litigation --
24 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
25 MR. SUN: -- which is allegations of whether
1 or not Mr. Trulock was defamed?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to get into a
3 discussion in front of the witness right now. I'm
4 asking for an answer. You know what it's about.
5 Q. Did you ever meet with the anyone by the name
6 of Hu Side?
7 MR. SUN: You know, I'm going to direct him
8 not to answer that question until I --
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
10 MR. SUN: -- until I get a proper
12 MR. KLAYMAN: It's all over the record. It's
13 been briefed. I assume you get copies of briefs. Do
14 you get copies of briefs?
15 MR. SUN: If you can give me a good
16 explanation about why a meeting with someone like Hu
17 Side is relevant to this litigation, I may let him
18 answer the question.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's have -- let's have Mr.
20 Lee leave the room, and I'll give you that courtesy,
21 even though I know full well that you know.
22 MR. SUN: Well, why don't we do at a break so
23 we don't waste your time.
24 MR. KLAYMAN: It's part of my -- my ongoing
1 MR. SUN: It's you -- that's fine. Do you
2 want to a break?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not taking a break. I want
4 -- you asked for a proffer. I'm going to give to you.
5 Please have the witness leave the room.
6 MR. SUN: Oh, okay.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Even though I know that you're
8 opposing this to waste time, I'm willing to do it.
9 MR. SUN: Oh, okay. Well, that's fine.
10 That's fine. Why don't you leave the room.
11 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm still on.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, leave it on the record.
13 (Mr. Lee leaves room.)
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Despite the fact that you know
15 full well what this is about, the issue of whether or
16 not -- are you listening to me?
17 MR. SUN: Yes, I am, Mr. Klayman.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: -- the issue of whether or not
19 it was proper to brand Mr. Trulock, or at least illegal
20 under the law to brand Mr. Trulock a racist and to say
21 that he was engaging in racial profiling, that
22 certainly bears on whether or not they were bona fide
23 reasons to have conducted an investigation. And it is
24 the other side of the coin of having defamed Mr.
25 Trulock by calling him a racist and saying that he
1 engaged in racial profiling. So it's directly
2 relevant. And it bears on his state of mind, it bears
3 on his intent, it bears on maliciousless in terms of
4 the alleged defamation. All of those issues. And
5 that's been out there. And it's in the public domain.
6 And the Court has not made any rulings on
7 this, as to whether or not the fact that he's a public
8 figure and maliciousness would come into it would
9 apply. He's waiting for discovery to take place. So
10 you can't really instruct him not to answer. He has to
11 be able to answer these questions.
12 MR. SUN: Well, I think the record, as I
13 understand it, as it exists now, is that Dr. Lee has
14 testified here today that he doesn't know your client,
15 he's heard his name; that he doesn't know whether he's
16 a racist or not; and doesn't recall ever having
17 communicated to anybody suggesting that he should be
18 branded or labeled a racist. So I don't understand why
19 his having met with Hu Side, or anybody else who is
20 ethnic Chinese, has anything to do with the allegations
21 of your lawsuit. And for those reasons, I would be
22 instructing him not to answer, because I think you're
23 venturing into the realm of the Government's
24 investigation of Dr. Lee, which is, I think, totally
25 outside the scope of the focus of -- of your
2 Now, I will add this observation. To the
3 extent that your focus of your questions focus on Mr.
4 Trulock's role in Dr. Lee's investigation and any
5 knowledge that my client has about Mr. Trulock's
6 participation in the investigation, I think that is
7 pertinent and relevant, and I would allow him to answer
8 questions that are tied to Dr. Trulock -- or Mr.
9 Trulock and the investigation. And to the extent that
10 there's some linkage between Mr. Trulock and the
11 investigation and a meeting with Hu Side, and you can
12 establish that for the record, then I may permit him
13 into answering your questions.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't have to -- see, I
15 don't have to establish anything before you. Because,
16 you see, you forget your role. You're not the judge.
17 This is a not a trial. This is discovery. So you are
18 not the Court.
19 MR. SUN: But --
20 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm entitled to ask these
22 MR. SUN: But I'm entitled to protect my
23 witness from harassment, which is what -- I believe
24 these questions certainly go into that realm.
25 MR. KLAYMAN: Why is it harassment to ask if
1 he meets with -- if he met with Hu Side? Why is that
3 MR. SUN: Because it's outside the scope of
4 the litigation that you brought, and I don't think it's
5 appropriate for this deposition.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it harassment because Mr. Hu
7 Side is Chinese? Is that what you're saying?
8 MR. SUN: No, it's a matter of you're probing
9 into matters of an investigation that may or may not
10 have anything to do with your client's claims. To the
11 extent that you establish a nexus between your client's
12 claims and the Government's investigation of Dr. Lee,
13 I've just indicated to you, I may be willing to let him
14 answer the questions.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm going to ask the
16 questions, and you will instruct him at your own risk.
17 MR. SUN: Very well.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's bring him back. It's
19 unfortunate that these things, which have been gone
20 over many, many times in this case, have to be used to
21 try to run the clock out.
22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I have about 16 minutes
23 left on this videotape, just to let you know. I'll
24 give you a five-minute warning.
25 Q. Mr. Lee, did you ever meet with a Hu Side?
1 MR. SUN: Direct him not to answer.
2 Q. Do you know who Hu Side is?
3 MR. SUN: Same direction.
4 Q. Okay. He is a director in China's nuclear
5 program; is he not?
6 MR. SUN: Same direction. Don't answer.
7 Q. One of the reasons that Mr. Trulock included
8 you in a list of names for investigation was because
9 you had met in your hotel room in Beijing with Mr. Hu
10 Side, correct?
11 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. You can
12 answer the question.
13 A. Please repeat your question.
14 Q. One of the reasons why you were investigated
15 or included on a list of people to investigate, to your
16 knowledge, was because you met with Hu Side behind
17 closed doors in a Beijing hotel room, correct?
18 A. The answer is no. I don't know. I don't
19 know why I was being investigate, and, therefore, I
20 don't know is it relate to this question or not. I
21 don't know.
22 Q. When asked questions by Government
23 investigators concerning whether or not you had
24 discussed classified information with nuclear
25 scientists of the People's Republic of China, you
1 initially said that you had not, correct?
2 MR. SUN: Objection.
3 MR. COPPOLINO: Can you hold for one second,
4 Mr. Klayman? Mr. Klayman, could you consider
5 rephrasing the question, because he's not at liberty to
6 tell you what Government investigators asked him.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: We have documents to that
8 effect. It's a matter of public record. Have you read
10 MR. COPPOLINO: I've read many documents, and
11 I know which ones you're referring to. What -- what is
12 in the newspaper isn't really relevant to --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we have actual document
14 from you.
15 MR. COPPOLINO: And your question is just a
16 little broad. You're asking him -- would you just
17 restate the question, so I understand it more clearly?
18 Q. You were investigated by the Federal
19 Government for alleged security violations, correct?
20 A. Let me repeat. I don't know why the
21 Government investigate on me. I don't -- to my best
22 knowledge, I don't know why. And . . .
23 Q. No one ever told you?
24 A. I will repeat again. To my best knowledge, I
25 don't know why the Government investigate on me.
1 Q. But no one told you the alleged reasons for
2 your investigation?
3 A. Are you saying nobody told me why I was
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I said, I don't know why I was investigate.
7 If somebody told me, I should know, but -- obviously.
8 Q. Okay. You do remember Government
9 investigators asking you whether you provided
10 classified information to nuclear scientists from the
11 People's Republic of China?
12 MR. SUN: Objection. As Mr. Coppolino
13 previously stated, Dr. Lee is not at liberty to discuss
14 what communications he had with Government
15 investigators. I believe that's our understanding of
16 the --
17 MR. KLAYMAN: He didn't say that.
18 MR. SUN: Well, your question --
19 MR. KLAYMAN: He asked me to rephrase the
20 question, and you're not entitled to make an objection
21 for him.
22 MR. SUN: No, I'm going to interpose this
23 objection. One, your phrasing of the question
24 suggested in communications with the Government
25 investigators. We have an understanding and an
1 agreement with the Government that we are not to
2 disclose communications with the Government in
3 interviews with the Government. And because of that,
4 I'm going to instruct him not to answer because we
5 would be in violation or breach of that agreement.
6 Now, if Mr. Coppolino believes otherwise and
7 believes I should instruct the witness to -- the
8 witness not to answer that question -- or instruct the
9 witness to answer the question, I will reconsider my
11 MR. COPPOLINO: Right, just give me one
13 MR. KLAYMAN: And let me call your attention
14 to a document, which I can put on the record, January
15 4, 2000, from John Kelly and Paula G. Burnett, U.S.
16 Department of Justice, United States Attorneys,
17 District of New Mexico, to Mark Holscher of O'Melveny &
18 Myers, and John D. Cline, Freedman, Boyd Daniels,
19 Hollander, Goldberg, & Cline, Re: United States vs.
20 Wen Ho Lee, including documents, labeled FBI Bates
21 numbers 4868 to 4950. And I'll ask that this be marked
22 as Exhibit 1.
23 (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
24 MR. COPPOLINO: Mr. Klayman, let me just
25 state for the record, and I think this will help
1 clarify our position -- and you can correct me if I'm