1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE

EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA

3 NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )

)

4 Plaintiff, )

)

5 v. ) Case No. 00-1527-A

)

6 WEN HO LEE, )

)

7 Defendant. )

______________________________)

8 )

NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )

9 )

Plaintiff, )

10 )

)

11 v. ) Case No. 00-1627-A

)

12 CHARLES E. WASHINGTON, et al.,)

)

13 Defendants. )

14 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF WEN HO LEE

Suite 1500E

15 300 Central, Southwest

Albuquerque, New Mexico

16 October 10, 2001

9:15 a.m.

PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL

18 PROCEDURE, this deposition was:

19 TAKEN BY: LARRY KLAYMAN

ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF

21 REPORTED BY: Kendra D. Tellez, NM CCR #205

P D & O Reporting, Inc.

22 Suite 1500E

300 Central, Southwest

23 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 For the Plaintiff:

3 JUDICIAL WATCH, INC.

Attorneys at Law

4 Suite 725

501 School Street, Southwest

5 Washington, D.C. 20024

By: Larry Klayman

6 John L. Martin

Thomas J. Fitton

For the Defendant Lee:

SIDLEY, AUSTIN, BROWN & WOOD

9 Attorneys at Law

1501 K Street, Northwest

10 Washington, D.C. 20005

By: Mr. C. Kevin Marshall

AND

O'NEILL, LYSAGHT & SUN, LLP

13 Attorneys at Law

Suite 700

14 100 Wilshire Boulevard

Santa Monica, California 90401

15 By: Mr. Brian A. Sun

16 AND

17 FREEDMAN, BOYD, DANIELS, HOLLANDER, GOLDBERG &

CLINE, P.A.

18 Attorneys at Law

Suite 700

19 20 First Plaza

Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

20 By: Mr. John D. Cline

21 For the Defendant Vrooman:

22 LAW OFFICE OF GARY HOWARD SIMPSON

Attorneys at law

23 9505 Kingsley Avenue,

Bethesda, Maryland 20814

24 By: Ms. Alane Tempchine

1 Also Present: Will Moir (Videographer)

2 Mr. Anthony J. Coppolino

(United States Department of Justice)

Ms. Natalia Leons

4 Robert S. Sinton

Deborah Mayer

5 Kevin Van Hutten

Mike Lowe

6 (Federal Bureau of Investigation)

7 James E. Green

(DOE officer)

EXAMINATION OF WEN HO LEE

By Mr. Klayman 9

SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 311

CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION OF DEPOSITION 312

EXHIBITS

6 1. January 4, 2000, letter to Holscher and Cline

from Paula G. Burnett 93

7 2. Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum 102

3. July 28, 2000, letter to Chang from Holscher 166

8 4. Declaration of Robert Vrooman 186

5. Declaration of Washington 186

9 6. Sun memorandum to Ms. Chang, regarding Website

Description of Function and Purposes of

10 the Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund 221

7. December 10, 1999, Press Release 229

11 8. September 19, 1999, Press Release 236

9. Wen Ho Lee Information Packet 243

12 10. Memorandum in support of Motion for

Discovery of Materials Related to Selective

13 Prosecution 245

11. Affidavit of Mr. Michael Lowe 259

14 12. December 13, 1989, memorandum from Vrooman 272

13. Transcript of 60 Minutes interview 298

CERTIFIED QUESTIONS PAGE LINE

1. Certified Question 19 5

3 2. Certified Question 23 19

3. Certified Question 60 19

4 4. Certified Question 77 18

5. Certified Statement 78 1

5 6. Certified Question 78 13

7. Certified Question 85 5

6 8. Certified Question 97 11

9. Certified Question 101 19

7 10. Certified Question 107 24

11. Certified Question 122 13

8 12. Certified Question 123 1

13. Certified Question 123 7

9 14. Certified Question 123 24

15. Certified Question 132 25

10 16. Certified Question 133 5

17. Certified Question 135 8

11 18. Certified Question 136 14

19. Certified Question 136 20

12 20. Certified Question 137 1

21. Certified Question 137 6

13 22. Certified Question 137 12

23. Certified Question 138 24

14 24. Certified Question 140 2

25. Certified Question 154 25

15 26. Certified Question 169 1

27. Certified Question 175 5

16 28. Certified Question 177 23

29. Certified Question 214 17

17 30. Certified Question 215 7

31. Certified Question 219 14

18 32. Certified Question 229 9

33. Certified Question 232 10

19 34. Certified Question 243 7

35. Certified Question 246 1

20 36. Certified Question 258 16

37. Certified Question 261 16

21 38. Certified Question 264 1

39 Certified Question 264 8

22 40. Certified Question 264 14

41. Certified Question 265 6

23 42. Certified Question 265 12

43. Certified Question 267 3

24 44. Certified Question 268 17

45. Certified Question 269 24

25 46. Certified Question 275 23

1 47. Certified Question 283 19

48. Certified Question 284 15

2 49. Certified Question 285 1

50. Certified Question 306 4

3 51. Certified Question 306 24

52. Certified Question 307 4

4 53. Certified Question 307 13

54. Certified Question 307 20

5 55. Certified Question 308 14

56. Certified Question 308 21

6 57. Certified Question 309 2

58. Certified Question 309 8

1 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Today is

2 Wednesday, the 11th of October, 2001. The time is 9:15

3 a.m. I am Will Moir, owner of Will Moir Video

4 Productions, located in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

5 We're here for the deposition of Wen Ho Lee,

6 in the case of Notra Trulock -- excuse me, in the case

7 of Notra Trulock versus Wen Ho Lee, filed in the United

8 States District Court for the District of New Mexico

9 case number, OO-1527-A(E)DBA. This deposition is being

10 videotaped in the presence of Kendra Tellez, with the

11 recording firm of PD&O. This deposition is being held

12 at 300 Central Avenue, Southwest, Suite 1500-East,

13 Albuquerque, New Mexico.

14 Counsel will now state their appearance.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman -- if you could

16 pan to everybody who is here.

17 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you, sir.

18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, chairman and

19 general counsel of Judicial Watch, on behalf of

20 Plaintiff Notra Trulock.

21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president of

22 Judicial Watch.

23 MR. MARTIN: John Martin, also with Judicial

24 Watch, on behalf of the Plaintiff.

25 MS. TEMPCHIN: Alane Tempchin for Defendant

1 Robert S. Vrooman, on behalf of Gary Simpson and Jack

2 Erikson.

3 MR. MARSHALL: Kevin Marshall of Sidley,

4 Austin, Brown & Wood, representing Dr. Lee.

5 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.

6 MR. SUN: Brian Sun, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun,

7 on behalf of Dr. Lee.

8 MR. COPPOLINO: I'm Anthony Coppolino, with

9 the United States Department of Justice, representing

10 the United States.

11 MR. GREEN: Jim Green, Department of Energy,

12 classification officer.

13 MR. LOWE: Michael Lowe, Federal Bureau of

14 Investigation.

15 MS. LEONS: Natalia Leons, Federal Bureau of

16 Investigation.

17 MR. SINTON: Robert Sinton, Federal Bureau of

18 Investigation.

19 MR. CLINE: John Cline, counsel for Dr. Lee.

20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the

21 last part.

22 MR. CLINE: Cline, C-L-I-N-E.

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Are were you a law firm?

24 MR. CLINE: Yes.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: What law firm?

1 MR. CLINE: Freedman, Boyd, & Daniels.

2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter will

3 now swear in the witness.

4 WEN HO LEE

5 After having been first duly sworn under oath, was

6 questioned and testified as follows:

7 EXAMINATION

8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

9 Q. Mr. Lee, my name is Larry Klayman -- good

10 morning.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. -- Counsel for Mr. Trulock. When were you

13 born?

14 A. I was born December 21st, 1939.

15 Q. Okay. And where were you born?

16 A. Taiwan.

17 Q. What part of Taiwan?

18 A. Sen-Lo-Par (phonetic).

19 Q. Is there a city?

20 A. It's called Nantou.

21 Q. And how's that spelled?

22 A. N-A-N-T-O-U.

23 Q. T-O-U. Okay.

24 A. Somebody T -- somebody's spelling is T-O-W.

25 Q. And -- and run us through, briefly, your

1 educational background.

2 MR. SUN: Mr. Klayman, before Mr -- or Dr.

3 Lee answers the question, which is a perfectly

4 acceptable question, I just want to make a statement

5 for the record, given all the parties that we have here

6 at the table today. There are some folks from the

7 Government here, particularly the gentleman from DOE

8 who is here, I think, as I understand it, as performing

9 a role as a -- what I've been told as a classification

10 reviewer.

11 And my understanding is that his presence

12 today is to protect against any inadvertent or any type

13 of disclosure of classified information to the extent

14 any of your questioning may go into those areas.

15 And so I just want to put that on the record,

16 and also indicate that, from our perspective, although

17 we're obviously here to answer questions that are

18 pertinent to the litigation that has been brought by

19 Mr. Trulock, we have to make it clear on the record

20 that we think any questions that exceed the scope of

21 questioning which we think has been defined by the

22 District Court in Virginia, we will instruct Dr. Lee

23 not to answer. Again, but we'll see where the questions

24 go before we even venture into that discussion.

25 Also, I believe the gentleman from the video

1 production company -- it's not that he misspoke, but I

2 think he said something about the District of New

3 Mexico. We are in the District of New Mexico, but the

4 case we're talking about is pending in the Eastern

5 District of Virginia. So I would state that for the

6 record.

7 So, again, sorry to interrupt, but I think I

8 need to make that statement for the record, and I don't

9 know -- Mr. Coppolino is here from the Government as

10 well. I don't know if there is anything else that

11 needs to be added about the presence of these other

12 folks from the Government, but that's my understanding

13 as to why they're present here for this deposition.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's -- it's my

15 understanding, in fact, we have an agreement with the

16 Government, that they are going to have twenty days

17 from the date of availability of the video, which will

18 be today, to go through that video and raise any issues

19 with regard to information which may get into national

20 security areas, as they may claim.

21 However, Mr. Sun, in terms of how this

22 deposition will proceed, it proceeds under the Federal

23 Rules of Civil Procedure. There is no protective order

24 in place which would give you an opportunity to

25 instruct your client not to answer a question, and that

1 would be wholly inappropriate if you decided to do

2 that.

3 We don't have any intent in going behind --

4 beyond the Court's orders, but if you do instruct your

5 client not to answer, obviously, we're going to have to

6 move for attorney's fees and costs, because it's going

7 to require us to go through a briefing process and come

8 back here, and I hope that you won't do that. That's

9 not the way depositions are conducted.

10 MR. SUN: Well, I'm sure you will --

11 MR. KLAYMAN: You'll have an opportunity, in

12 other words, in that twenty days, if you want to make

13 any kind of argument with regard to a question you

14 might want to move to strike or you might want to do

15 this or that, you can do that. But this is going to be

16 a very slow process if we're going to have to go

17 through that, and it would be wholly inappropriate.

18 MR. SUN: Well, Mr. Klayman, I think you will

19 do what you think is appropriate on behalf of your

20 client, and we will do the same for our client.

21 I will also make the observation that I've

22 instructed my client, because of the number of parties

23 present and their different interests, that he should

24 pause for a moment after every question posed to him to

25 make sure that the Government has an opportunity to

1 speak up, if they think it necessary or appropriate in

2 light of your questioning. I just want that clear for

3 the record, that Dr. Lee is doing that at -- largely at

4 my direction.

5 So other than these preliminary statements,

6 I'm -- we're ready to proceed.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, and there is one other

8 statement that should be cleared. I'm not saying this

9 for the record, because we can brief it, but I hope

10 you'll take it into account, is that you have an actual

11 or potential conflict of interest here, given the fact

12 that, as alleged in the Complaint, Dr. Lee and his

13 agents published defamatory information about our

14 client. And to the extent that you instruct the client

15 not to answer, it could be perceived to be that you're

16 protecting yourself as much as you're protecting him.

17 And that's why I hope that you will not exercise that

18 in an overbearing way.

19 I just warn you about this right now, because

20 we've gone through this before. In fact, you and I

21 have been in depositions before.

22 MR. SUN: The only part that's accurate about

23 your last statement is that we've been in depositions

24 before. Other than that, we're ready to proceed, and

25 the record will speak for itself.

1 If you think you have some motions you want

2 to bring, feel free to bring those motions. It's your

3 time today, so you can spend them any way you want.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it is my time. I'm just

5 hoping that you don't try to limit my time by not

6 having him answer questions and putting things on the

7 record which are not necessary. This was wholly

8 unnecessary. The Rules of Civil Procedure govern this

9 proceeding.

10 MR. SUN: I agree with that part.

11 MR. COPPOLINO: If I may just briefly state,

12 Mr. Klayman correctly stated that we have reached a

13 stipulation that the transcript of this deposition

14 would be sealed from public disclosure for a period of

15 20 days following receipt of the video in order for

16 there to be a review as to whether there was an

17 inadvertent disclosure of classified information at the

18 deposition. However, I want to make clear that this is

19 not a classified proceeding. And that to the extent

20 classified information may be -- may be responsive to a

21 question or that a question may risk the disclosure of

22 classified information, the United States would object

23 and would instruct that classified information not be

24 disclosed in response to a question.

25 Mr. Sun indicated correctly that I have a

1 classification official from the Department of Energy,

2 and also from the FBI, to assist any party or counsel

3 that wishes to confer so that we can avoid the

4 disclosure of classified information, and that is why

5 those individuals are there. If either counsel or Mr.

6 -- or Dr. Lee or Mr. Sun wish to confer about an issue

7 as to whether it might disclose classified information,

8 we're happy to do that.

9 To the extent we are certain that the

10 question calls for classified information, we would

11 object and instruct that classified information not be

12 disclosed in response to the question.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Same statements with regard to

14 that. If you -- if you so instruct the witness, given

15 the issues involved here, you do it at your own risk.

16 One other point is that it's my understanding

17 that Wen Ho Lee -- obviously, it's a matter of public

18 record -- has reached a plea agreement with the

19 Government. That plea agreement basically closes all

20 issues. I don't understand what the trepidation would

21 be in having him answer questions as long as he answers

22 truthfully those questions, notwithstanding national

23 security issues.

24 So, Mr. Sun, to the extent that you instruct

25 him not to answer, there would be no basis in doing

1 that unless the Government imposed a national security

2 objection.

3 MR. SUN: Well, there'll be a number of

4 reasons why counsel could instruct a witness not to

5 answer, including, but not limited to, privilege,

6 attorney/client privilege, spousal privilege, any of a

7 number of proper invocations of privilege that would

8 allow for the witness to be directed not to answer a

9 question. And there also are issues regarding

10 relevance, but, again, until we hear your questions --

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, but you -- you posed your

12 statement based on the scope of Court orders, and that

13 would be inappropriate at this point in time.

14 MR. SUN: I disagree with you.

15 Q. Mr. Lee, run us through your educational

16 background, briefly.

17 A. I got my --

18 Q. From -- from high school on up.

19 A. I finished high school in Taiwan and bachelor

20 degree in Taiwan, and I --

21 Q. Okay. Where did you go to high school in

22 Taiwan?

23 A. Kelung, K-E-L-U-N-G.

24 Q. And where is that located?

25 A. Kelung.

1 Q. And when did you graduate?

2 A. I don't remember. I think --

3 Q. Roughly speaking.

4 A. About 1959, roughly.

5 Q. And what happened after high school?

6 A. I went to college.

7 Q. Where did you go to college?

8 A. Cheng Kung University.

9 Q. How's that spelled?

10 A. C-H-E-N-G, K-U-N-G.

11 Q. Two words?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And where is that located?

14 A. It's Tainan, T-A-I-N-A-N.

15 Q. And what did you specialize in at Cheng Kung

16 University? What was your major?

17 A. Mechanical engineering.

18 Q. Did you graduate?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. During your time -- and when did you graduate?

21 A. 1963.

22 Q. 1963?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During your period at Cheng Kung University,

25 were you a member of any associations or groups?

1 MR. SUN: Vague and ambiguous.

2 MR. MARSHALL: What's the relevance of that

3 question?

4 Q. Were you a member of any student

5 associations?

6 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you have any contact with any people who

9 had allegiance to the People's Republic of China?

10 MR. MARSHALL: Relevance.

11 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance, vague and

12 ambiguous.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: By the way, under the Rules of

14 Civil Procedure, you only have to object as to form;

15 otherwise, all you're doing is ticking off time here.

16 You can preserve all of your substantive objections

17 under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

18 MR. SUN: I think I'm doing it

19 appropriately. I'm not making argumentative objections

20 and statements --

21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm just telling you, we

22 can move it along quickly if you just say "Objection,"

23 because all of your substantive objections are

24 preserved.

25 MR. SUN: I'll object as I see fit.

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll move as we see fit.

2 MR. SUN: Very well.

3 Do you remember the question?

4 THE WITNESS: No.

5 Q. Were you associ- -- did you have any contact

6 with groups that had ties to the People's Republic of

7 China.

8 MR. SUN: Let me ask you about time frame.

9 What time frame are you talking about?

10 MR. KLAYMAN: When he was in college at Cheng

11 Kung.

12 MR. SUN: Okay. My understanding is the

13 scope of this deposition is to focus on time frames

14 between 1995 and the present. I don't see the

15 connection between your line of questioning and the

16 subject matter of this Complaint. If you could state

17 some for the record, I'd be willing to --

18 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't have to state anything

19 for the record.

20 MR. SUN: All right. I'm going to direct the

21 witness not to answer.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: You're just running out the

23 clock, Mr. Lee -- Mr. Sun.

24 MR. SUN: I've directed my client not to

25 answer. You can move on.

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, I think you understand the

2 basis of it. Okay. He was under an investigation.

3 I'll give you this -- this courtesy at this point. I'm

4 trying to save time here, because there's a one-day

5 limitation initially, before we have to move for more

6 time. But he was under investigation for allegations

7 of espionage with the People's Republic of China and,

8 consequently, this is a relevant issue.

9 You are alleging that your client was

10 investigated because he's Chinese. We are saying he

11 was not investigated because he was Chinese, and our

12 client was defamed.

13 There are bases for investigation that might

14 hinge on whether or not he had prior contacts with the

15 People's Republic of China. That's the basis of it.

16 MR. SUN: Well, I disagree with you to this

17 extent, Mr. Klayman: My understanding of your lawsuit

18 is that this is a libel defamation lawsuit brought by

19 Mr. Trulock against Dr. Lee. As I understand the

20 Complaint, it has to do with statements allegedly made

21 in court about -- by other individuals about your

22 client. And I don't see how -- whether or not my

23 client may know some people from 30-plus years ago has

24 anything to do with that subject matter, and for that

25 reason, I'm directing him not to answer.

1 This is not going to be a deposition where

2 you try to reopen a Government investigation that is

3 now closed. I think it's appropriate for you to ask

4 questions that involve the subject matter of the

5 Complaint. I believe that there have been rulings by

6 the district court in the Eastern District of Virginia

7 that have confirmed my viewpoint in that regard.

8 So until I'm persuaded otherwise, I think

9 your questioning should focus on the subject matter of

10 the lawsuit, which are these statements, declarations,

11 whatever they're called, that were -- are the subject

12 of your Complaint. And if you would do that, I think

13 you'd make better use of your time today.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we will make good use of

15 our time, and we will be moving for appropriate relief

16 and attorney's fees and costs if this continues. There

17 is nothing that limits our deposition. You should have

18 read the record before you came here today, Mr. Sun,

19 before you attempted to obstruct -- obstruct it, as

20 you're now doing.

21 We are entitled to get into all issues here,

22 and there have been no such rulings with any such

23 limitations.

24 MR. SUN: Once again, I disagree.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: So you instruct him not to

1 answer?

2 MR. SUN: I instruct him not to answer.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. That means mark

4 the record at this point.

5 Q. Were you a member of any student

6 organizations?

7 MR. SUN: Asked and answered.

8 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you defending him or

9 yourself, Mr. Sun?

10 MR. SUN: You can answer the question.

11 A. Would you please repeat the question?

12 Q. Were you a member of any student

13 organizations?

14 A. To my best memory, I don't remember. It's

15 been a while.

16 Q. After you graduated from Cheng Kung

17 University, what did you do at that time?

18 MR. SUN: Educationwise?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Either professionally or

20 educationwise.

21 A. I stayed in Taiwan for one year, and then I

22 come to this country.

23 Q. What year did you come to this country?

24 A. 1964.

25 Q. And why did you come to this country?

1 A. I came for school, for education.

2 Q. And where did you go to school?

3 A. Texas A & M.

4 Q. And what did you study there?

5 A. Mechanical engineering.

6 Q. Had you received, what, a Bachelor of Science

7 at Cheng Kung in Taiwan?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And you went to Texas A & M to get a master's

10 degree or a doctorate degree?

11 A. Both.

12 Q. And when did you graduate from Texas A & M?

13 A. Towards the end of 1969.

14 Q. And what did you graduate with? What degrees?

15 A. Ph.D.

16 Q. During your time at Texas A & M, were you a

17 member of any student organizations?

18 A. To my best memory, I don't remember this.

19 Q. Did you have contact with anyone or any

20 entity with ties to the People's Republic of China?

21 MR. MARSHALL: Same objection.

22 MR. SUN: Same objection. Is there --

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Who am I getting two objections

24 from now?

25 MR. SUN: You're getting an objection from

1 counsel for Dr. Lee. Objection, relevance. And I'm

2 going to direct him not to answer that question.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

4 Q. During the time that -- during your period

5 that you lived in Taiwan, did you ever travel to the

6 People's Republic of China?

7 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, could you repeat the

8 question?

9 Q. During the time that you lived in Taiwan, Mr.

10 Lee, did you ever travel to the People's Republic of

11 China?

12 MR. MARSHALL: Objection to that, relevance.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Who is -- is he with you?

14 MR. SUN: Yes, he is.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Can I just have one

16 counsel make objections? That's usually the way it's

17 done at depositions.

18 MR. MARSHALL: Let me say something just to

19 clarify the relevance question and the basis for what

20 Mr. Sun has said. There have been --

21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, who is -- who is

22 defending this deposition?

23 MR. MARSHALL: Both of us.

24 MR. SUN: Both of us are. Mr. Marshall's

25 going to make a statement for the record, Mr. Klayman,

1 so just let him --

2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, who's going to handle

3 objections?

4 MR. SUN: I will handle the objections. Mr.

5 Marshall will make a statement for the record now.

6 MR. MARSHALL: There have been two document

7 requests to Dr. Lee prior to the document requests that

8 accompanied this Notice of Deposition. Dr. Lee

9 objected to both of them. You brought a Motion to

10 Compel to overcome those objections, and both your

11 Motions to Compel lost. I take it that the judge's

12 rulings on both of those Motions to Compel define the

13 limits of relevance in this case.

14 And I know that Mr. Klayman is well aware of

15 the judge's rulings. Among the -- the rule -- our

16 objections was that 1995 to the present is the only

17 relevant time period.

18 In addition, you twice asked for documents

19 about Mr. Lee's travels to China. We objected both

20 times, and, again, the judge ruled in our favor both

21 times. That's why this question's out of bounds, and

22 that's why most of the questions you've asked so far

23 are out of bounds. And that's the reason for Mr. Lee's

24 -- for Mr. Sun's objections, although relevance is not

25 generally a reason for telling a client not to answer,

1 if you persist in asking questions that are clearly not

2 relevant of the judge's orders, our only conclusion can

3 be you're trying to harass our client.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: My only conclusion is that

5 you're trying to harass us and run out the clock. I'm

6 asking background information -- background information

7 here. You just stated that most of my questions were

8 irrelevant. I asked two questions, as to whether he

9 was associated with certain student organizations and

10 if he traveled to China. That question is clearly

11 background information. I'm entitled to it.

12 In addition, you're talking about a very

13 limited ruling of a court order, which, frankly, is on

14 appeal to a judge. It was made by a magistrate at the

15 time. Those are on appeal. And these matters are not

16 even bearing with getting background information. So

17 if you want to persist and just obstruct the

18 deposition, you may proceed. You'll do it at your own

19 risk, but I'm entitled to ask it.

20 MR. SUN: My point is simply that the limits

21 of relevance in this case are quite clearly

22 established, and we're going to proceed on that basis.

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you can do what you want,

24 but just don't run out the clock for me.

25 MR. SUN: No, Larry, let me make this

1 suggestion, see if you agree with it, so that we can --

2 we can deal with this issue. If you would agree that

3 we have a standing objection on relevance throughout

4 your entire taking of depositions today, then I won't

5 have to interrupt each time and say, "Objection,

6 relevance." That's one proposal I would make you to

7 you now.

8 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. You can have

9 that.

10 MR. SUN: You stipulate on the record that

11 we having a standing objection on relevance

12 throughout -- for every question posed in the

13 deposition. Okay? Just hear me out. And then unless

14 I direct my client not to answer, I will -- you know,

15 basically, Dr. Lee, you'll answer the question. All

16 right?

17 THE WITNESS: Um-hmm.

18 MR. SUN: And -- but the stipulation's got to

19 be understanding proviso that I'm not waiving any

20 relevance objections to any questions and that I -- I'm

21 going to -- in doing so, that when I direct Dr. Lee not

22 to answer, it's going to be because we determine at

23 some point that the questioning has really gone beyond

24 the scope to a level where we believe, as previously

25 stated, we will direct Dr. Lee not to answer.

1 This proposal is designed, Mr. Klayman, to

2 avoid you being concerned about running out the clock,

3 avoid speeches by counsel, and allow you to proceed

4 with the deposition, hopefully in a more orderly way.

5 I make that proposal to you in the spirit of trying to

6 move this along.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: You always have that. The

8 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure provides that, so I

9 don't have to stipulate to it. But I'll even stipulate

10 to it, because it is the law.

11 In answer to Counsel's question about what

12 the magistrate ruled, he ruled that a request asking

13 for all documents concerning the PRC was overly broad.

14 Okay? He did not say we could not get into these

15 areas, and these areas are clearly relevant. You are

16 claiming that our client singled your client out

17 because he is ethnic Chinese. We're saying that is not

18 the case; that there was a valid basis to investigate

19 him. And, obviously, one of the bases the people used

20 to investigate individuals who are being accused of

21 breaches of national security are contacts with foreign

22 powers that are adverse to the United States, and that

23 was a legitimate reason to investigate him.

24 So it's quite relevant. And there is no

25 order saying we cannot get into it. So do you this at

1 your own risk.

2 MR. SUN: Well, Mr. Klayman, as I understand

3 the judge's rulings and the -- and the motions that

4 were litigated -- and, one, I know of no stay in

5 effect, so believe the judge's order is still in effect

6 unless overruled by a reviewing court -- is that it's

7 really focused on what Mr. Trulock knew, what Dr. Lee

8 knew, what statements were made that might have

9 allegedly defamed or libeled Mr. Trulock. And I

10 believe that's the proper focus of your examination.

11 It isn't what other people might have known or what

12 other things might have occurred outside the rubric of

13 Dr. Lee's knowledge or Mr. Trulock's knowledge.

14 So that's where I believe the proper focus

15 is. Again, to save time, we've agreed that we'll have

16 a standing objection on relevance, then I will only

17 speak up when necessary to invoke privilege objections

18 or to direct Dr. Lee not to answer because I believe

19 the scope of the question has gone beyond the pale.

20 And this way, we can move along faster, and I don't

21 have to speak up as much and disrupt your flow.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Why -- why do you have to

23 repeat that? By repeating, again, you're running out

24 the clock. That's what you're doing. It's quite clear

25 what your strategy is here. So I just say, let it

1 be, let the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure govern.

2 If you have a problem with a question, if I've gone

3 beyond the scope, you have an opportunity to move to

4 strike. And he's got -- he, in effect, has total

5 immunity now as long as he tells the truth. He's

6 already been convicted of a crime.

7 MR. SUN: Well, do you accept my proposal or

8 not, Mr. Klayman?

9 MR. KLAYMAN: I accept your proposal, because

10 it's the Rules of Civil Procedure, so stop. Let me

11 answer my -- let me ask my questions. If you have a

12 problem with the responses, then you can move to

13 strike, but these are relevant questions.

14 MR. SUN: I'm agreeing to my proposal, and

15 we'll proceed accordingly.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: These questions are also

17 relevant as to state of mind, intent, and -- and issues

18 involving malice, if, indeed, that becomes an issue in

19 the case. The Court has not made any rulings, as of

20 yet, as to whether my client is a public figure or

21 not. And consequently these questions need to be

22 asked. And even if it made a ruling, that would be

23 subject to review by a judge.

24 Q. Now, you graduated in 1969. What did you do

25 at that time, Mr. Lee?

1 A. I went to look for job.

2 Q. And where did you look for a job?

3 A. I went to look for job, and I spent about --

4 I don't know. I don't remember -- maybe four or five

5 month to look at a job.

6 Q. Where did you get a job? Did you get a job?

7 A. I get a job in Columbia University, yes.

8 Q. And what job was that?

9 A. It's a research work relate to meteorology

10 and the weather.

11 MR. SUN: Meteorology.

12 A. Meteorology, weather prediction.

13 Q. Did you have an immediate supervisor in that

14 job?

15 A. I have.

16 Q. What's his name? What was his name?

17 A. I don't remember his name.

18 Q. And how long did you stay at Columbia

19 University?

20 A. Roughly, about one year.

21 Q. During the period that you were at Columbia

22 University, did you ever have any contact with anyone

23 with ties to the People's Republic of China?

24 MR. SUN: Same objection. I'm going to

25 direct him not to answer the question. It's vague and

1 ambiguous, too. What do you mean by "ties"?

2 Q. You want to use another word? Do you suggest

3 a word?

4 MR. SUN: Why don't you ask a better

5 question.

6 Q. Did you have contact with anyone who, in any

7 way, had anything to do with the People's Republic of

8 China?

9 MR. SUN: That's vague and ambiguous. Calls

10 for speculation.

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing him not to

12 answer?

13 MR. SUN: You can answer that question.

14 A. No.

15 Q. During the time, up to the point that you

16 left Columbia University, had you ever traveled to the

17 People's Republic of China?

18 A. Please repeat your question.

19 Q. Up to the point in time that you left

20 Columbia University -- you said you stayed a year --

21 had you ever traveled to the People's Republic of

22 China?

23 A. Do you mean -- do you mean that year or --

24 Q. Anytime in your life up to that point.

25 A. Up to --

1 Q. The point you left Columbia University.

2 A. Did I ever travel to China? Yeah?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. No.

5 Q. And what year did you leave Columbia

6 University?

7 A. I don't remember exactly what year.

8 Somewhere around 1971 or '72.

9 Q. Okay. Up to 1971, did you ever have any

10 friends from the People's Republic of China?

11 MR. SUN: What do you me "from"? You mean

12 that they were born there?

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Who came from --

14 MR. SUN: Immigrated there?

15 MR. KLAYMAN: -- who came from. Came from,

16 immigrated, whatever. Who -- who were born in the

17 People's Republic of China.

18 Q. You can answer the question.

19 A. I don't understand your question.

20 Q. No disrespect, but are -- is English not a

21 language that you understand?

22 A. Please let me -- do you want me to answer

23 your --

24 Q. I mean, I want to understand if it's my -- if

25 it's the English language or it's me. Is there a

1 problem with the way I'm phrasing it?

2 A. No, the definition of your question. When

3 you say do I know anybody from People Republic of

4 China -- is that what you mean?

5 Q. Well, this question was, up to 1971, did you

6 ever have any friends who came from or immigrated from

7 the People's Republic of China?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. And up to 1971, you never traveled to

10 the People's Republic of China? Just to clear that up.

11 A. Please repeat your question.

12 Q. Up to, and including, 1971, you never

13 traveled to the People's Republic of China?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Okay. What did you do after you left

16 Columbia University in 1971?

17 A. I don't know is it 1971. I think it's

18 between 1971 or 1972. I don't remember. But I went to

19 work in a company in San Diego.

20 Q. And what company was that?

21 A. I don't remember the name.

22 Q. And what type of work did you do?

23 A. It's a research work.

24 Q. What kind of research did you do?

25 A. Again, it's related to weather prediction and

1 air pollution.

2 Q. Did you study courses on weather prediction

3 when you were in university in Taiwan and at Texas

4 A & M?

5 A. I was major in fluid mechanical, and fluid

6 mechanical has big application for weather prediction.

7 Q. How long did you stay in that job in San

8 Diego?

9 A. I don't remember exactly how long.

10 Q. Well, roughly speaking.

11 A. Roughly, about one year.

12 Q. Why did you leave? Why did you leave?

13 A. The budget was cut, and several people was --

14 got laid off, include me.

15 Q. Was your work considered not to be up to

16 standard?

17 A. I don't understand your question.

18 Q. You were cut because they didn't like your

19 work?

20 A. I don't believe so.

21 Q. And what did you do after you left this

22 company?

23 A. I work at a weather company in Pasadena.

24 Q. A razor company?

25 A. No, no, it's a weather.

1 Q. Weather?

2 A. Relating to -- to weather.

3 Q. Okay. Moved to Pasadena, California, worked

4 for a weather company?

5 A. It's a company relate to weather.

6 Q. And how long -- okay. And what was your job

7 there?

8 A. It has something to do with the air pollution.

9 Q. And, specifically, what did you do concerning

10 air pollution?

11 A. It's relate to the smog -- smog S-M-O-G --

12 smog concentration above Los Angeles basin.

13 Q. And how long did you stay in this job?

14 A. It's approximately more than one year.

15 Q. Why did you leave?

16 A. Because I went to work for a company located

17 in Idaho. I had a better job.

18 Q. And what year was that?

19 A. I don't remember exactly what year.

20 Q. Just give it to me generally. I don't -- we

21 don't need exact precision. What year was that,

22 roughly speaking?

23 A. It's roughly, about 1974 or '75. I don't

24 remember.

25 Q. And what was your job position in this new

1 enterprise in Idaho?

2 A. I'm a research scientist.

3 Q. What were you researching?

4 A. It's in fluid mechanic.

5 Q. Full mechanics?

6 A. Yeah, F-L-U-I-D.

7 MR. SUN: Fluid.

8 Q. Fluid mechanics. And what was the name of

9 this company?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Who was your supervisor at the company, your

12 immediate supervisor?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. How long did you stay at this company?

15 A. Roughly, about three or four years.

16 Q. When did you leave the company, roughly

17 speaking? What year?

18 A. Must be somewhere around 1978.

19 Q. 1978?

20 A. It's probably like in 1977 or 1978. I don't

21 remember. During that period.

22 Q. Up to that time period, did you get married?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When were you married?

25 A. 1970.

1 Q. 1970. And who did you marry in 1970?

2 A. My wife.

3 Q. When did you first meet your wife? I take it

4 her name's Sylvia?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. When did you first meet your wife?

7 A. Toward the end of 1969.

8 Q. Where did you meet her?

9 A. Los Angeles.

10 Q. Okay. Your wife was born in the People's

11 Republic of China, correct?

12 A. She was born in Republic of China, not People

13 Republic of China.

14 Q. Okay. At that time, it was called the

15 Republic of China, is that what you're saying?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Okay. It later, when Mao Tse-tung took over,

18 it became the People's Republic of China, correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. She was born in mainland China, what's called

21 mainland China?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Okay. Not Taiwan?

24 A. But she was born in Republic of China, not

25 People Republic of China.

1 Q. Why is that distinction important?

2 A. It's very important. People -- People

3 Republic of China is communist. Republic of China is

4 not communist.

5 Q. Okay. And when did she come to the United

6 States?

7 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

8 Q. You never asked her that?

9 A. I never asked -- well, I --

10 MR. SUN: Let me object at this point. To

11 the extent that some questions may invade or implicate

12 spousal marital communications privilege, I may

13 object. The questions of this nature, I don't have a

14 problem with, Mr. Klayman. But I just want to indicate

15 to you that there are areas where that privilege might

16 come into play.

17 But you can answer the question, Dr. Lee.

18 A. Can you repeat your question, please?

19 Q. Roughly speaking, when did your wife Sylvia

20 come to the United States?

21 A. To my best recollection, I don't know.

22 Q. Generally speaking?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. How long have you been married to her?

25 A. I marry her in 1970.

1 Q. So you've been married to her 31 years,

2 correct?

3 A. That's about right.

4 Q. In 31 years, you never asked her, and she

5 never told you, when she came to the United States?

6 A. To my best memory, I don't know.

7 Q. But you know generally?

8 A. What do you mean, "generally"?

9 Q. In fact, she came -- she came to the United

10 States during a period when that country that she was

11 born in was under communist rule, correct?

12 MR. SUN: Objection, that assumes facts not

13 in evidence, and I think you're missing a few things,

14 but --

15 MR. KLAYMAN: That's a leading question which

16 I'm entitled to ask. I'm trying to help him because

17 his memory is gone inexplicably blank on this question.

18 MR. SUN: Well, that's what you call it.

19 You've misstated the facts, and that's what I'm

20 suggesting.

21 MR. KLAYMAN: The man is a nuclear scientist.

22 He's a very sharp individual. He knows what I'm

23 saying.

24 MR. SUN: You've assumed that Mrs. Lee came

25 to the United States directly from mainland China, at

1 least that's what I thought your question presumed.

2 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't -- Please don't

3 give --

4 MR. SUN: There is no evidence to support

5 that.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: -- don't give speaking

7 objections to coach your witness, please. We know the

8 game, Brian. We know the game.

9 MR. SUN: If you understand the question, you

10 can answer it.

11 A. Please repeat your question.

12 Q. Now that your counsel has told you the

13 answer, maybe you can answer it. Did your wife come to

14 the United States through another country? Did she

15 live in another country, before she came to the United

16 States, other than mainland China?

17 A. She came to United States from Taiwan.

18 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. See, that's an example.

19 This is improper litigation conduct.

20 MR. SUN: I was trying to help you out, Mr.

21 Klayman.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to be helped out.

23 Okay? Your help, I don't need.

24 MR. SUN: I'll take that into consideration.

25 Q. When did she leave mainland China to go to

1 Taiwan?

2 A. This is third time I tell you, to my best

3 memory, I don't know.

4 Q. So when did she come from Taiwan to the

5 United States?

6 A. Again, as far as I can recall, I don't know.

7 Q. Generally, you don't know?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Mr. Lee, you've taken polygraphs before,

10 haven't you?

11 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance.

12 Q. Have you taken polygraphs?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And you failed some of them, haven't

15 you.

16 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance. Direct him

17 not to answer. What's that got to do with the subject

18 matter of this lawsuit, Mr. Klayman?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: It has to do with truthfulness

20 and credibility.

21 MR. SUN: You know, I'm going to direct him

22 not to answer.

23 Q. When you testified before that you didn't

24 know anyone associated in any way with the People's

25 Republic of China, you answered based upon the fact

1 that your wife had come from Taiwan, that you didn't

2 include her in that group of coming from the People's

3 Republic of China?

4 A. I don't --

5 MR. SUN: Objection, vague and ambiguous,

6 argumentative. Go ahead.

7 A. I don't understand your question. Can you

8 repeat again?

9 Q. I asked you a question that, up to 1971, did

10 you know anyone who was associated in any way with the

11 People's Republic of China, and you said no. Do you

12 remember that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And the reason you didn't include your

15 wife in that category is because you're claiming she

16 came from Taiwan --

17 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.

18 Q. -- is that correct?

19 MR. SUN: Vague and ambiguous.

20 A. Let me repeat. Listen carefully. She was

21 born in China, which is called Republic of China, not

22 People Republic of China when she was born. And she

23 move with her family to Taiwan. I don't know when.

24 And it's also under Peo- -- under Republic of China,

25 not under People Republic of China. And she move from

1 Taiwan to United States also under Republic of China,

2 not People Republic of China. She has nothing to do

3 with People Republic of China. Is that clear?

4 Q. Well, you don't remember the dates when she

5 left. So as far as she know, she may have left the

6 People's Republic of China, correct?

7 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.

8 Q. So you didn't tell the truth, did you, when

9 you testified to that?

10 MR. SUN: Objection, instruct the witness not

11 to answer.

12 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

13 MR. SUN: No.

14 Q. What, if anything, did you do after the

15 company -- when did you leave the company in Pasadena?

16 Excuse me, in Idaho? Was that 1978, just to get back

17 into the frame of reference?

18 A. I don't remember, but it must be 1978 or

19 '77. I don't remember.

20 Q. And what did you do in -- in that time

21 period? Did you get another job?

22 A. Yes. I got a job in Argonne National

23 Laboratory in Chicago.

24 MR. SUN: It's A-R-G-O-N-N-E, I think.

25 Q. And what kind of job was that?

1 A. It's a fluid mechanic again.

2 Q. Fluid mechanical?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And how long did you stay in this job?

5 A. Roughly, one year.

6 Q. And why did you leave?

7 A. I got a better offer in Los Alamos.

8 Q. Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago, is

9 that a nuclear laboratory?

10 A. They do unclassify research work.

11 Q. Dealing with nuclear matters?

12 A. They may have some, but -- most of them are

13 nonnuclear.

14 Q. Did you work on matters involving nuclear

15 issues?

16 A. I was working on the computer code, which is

17 a fluid mechanic.

18 Q. And does that deal with nuclear?

19 A. It is a two-phase-flow fluid mechanic code.

20 Q. Does it deal with nuclear?

21 MR. SUN: Objection, vague and ambiguous. Do

22 you understand what the term "nuclear" means?

23 Q. Is there anything that relates in any way to

24 nuclear issues? Just answer the question.

25 A. No.

1 Q. Why are you finding difficulty answering my

2 questions? Is it my method of speaking? I'm trying to

3 figure it out so we can move this along.

4 MR. SUN: You don't have to respond to that

5 question. Unless you --

6 Q. Are you having a problem with the way I'm

7 phrasing things?

8 MR. SUN: You can answer that.

9 A. I have a problem with your -- the definition,

10 the vocabulary definition, between you and me, because

11 the way I'm thinking is scientifical definition, and I

12 --

13 Q. You don't understand the word "nuclear"?

14 A. I told you, I work on two-phase fluid code,

15 computer code, two-phase fluid. It is a mechan- --

16 fluid mechanic, and we use that for fluid aspect.

17 Q. And I asked you whether that had anything to

18 do with nuclear matters. So is the answer yes?

19 A. The answer -- the question is, What do you

20 mean nuclear with fluid mechanics? Do you know that --

21 do you know the relation between nuclear and fluid

22 mechanic? What -- what do you mean?

23 Q. Did that particular lab, that Aragonne lab,

24 deal with nuclear matters among other matters?

25 A. They also deal with many, many nonnuclear

1 matter, too, Aragonne.

2 Q. But I asked you about nuclear matters.

3 A. I told you, I work on two-phase fluid code,

4 which is a fluid mechanic. And fluid mechanic may have

5 -- can be used for nuclear, maybe not, but I don't know

6 your implication. I don't know your definition.

7 Q. I just simply asked, Did the Argonne National

8 Labs involve itself in some nuclear issues?

9 A. They may. They may.

10 Q. Did they, or did they not?

11 A. They may. I say they may.

12 Q. Did they, or did they not? "May" means they

13 could have. Did they, or did they not, when you worked

14 there?

15 A. I know they have some people work on reactor

16 safety. Reactor safety.

17 Q. So the answer's yes.

18 A. Well, reactor safety. Well, I told you

19 already.

20 Q. So the answer's yes.

21 A. I don't know your definition.

22 MR. SUN: The answer is yes to what?

23 A. I don't know your definition.

24 Q. Is a reactor nuclear?

25 A. Reactor can be nuclear; can be nonnuclear.

1 MR. KLAYMAN: That is very instructive in

2 terms of how the witness is answering questions, and

3 I'm not going belabor it. We'll be instructive when we

4 ask for attorney's fees and costs.

5 Q. Now, how did you get your job when you left

6 Argonne National Lab in Chicago?

7 MR. SUN: Mr. Klayman, it's Argonne.

8 MR. KLAYMAN: Argonne.

9 Q. Did you then get a job at Los Alamos in New

10 Mexico?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Okay. And how did you go about getting that

13 job?

14 A. What do you mean?

15 Q. How did you get the job? Did you apply for

16 the job?

17 A. I applied, yes.

18 Q. Did you have someone that you knew at Los

19 Alamos that recommended you for the job?

20 A. No, I sent an application form. I sent my

21 resume. That's all.

22 Q. When you worked at Argonne Nuclear Labs, did

23 you have a security clearance?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. When did you get your job at Los Alamos?

1 A. Please repeat your question.

2 Q. When did you get your job at Los Alamos? Was

3 that a difficult question?

4 MR. SUN: Is your question was it difficult,

5 or is your question still when did he get the job?

6 Q. When did you get your job?

7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to figure

8 out -- maybe you can help -- maybe you can help me, Mr.

9 Sun. Does he not speak English? Is this the problem?

10 MR. SUN: Well, I think he speaks English.

11 We haven't asked for an interpreter. If you think you

12 want to adjourn and get one, it's up to you. We --

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then, I'm trying to

14 figure out why he can't answer a simple question.

15 MR. SUN: That's your perspective. Maybe

16 your questions aren't clear or maybe you're asking two

17 questions at once.

18 Q. Okay. Let me repeat it again. When did you

19 get a job at Los Alamos? Is that difficult to

20 understand, Mr. Lee?

21 A. Toward the end of 1978.

22 Q. And what job did you get?

23 MR. COPPOLINO: Hold on for a second, Mr.

24 Klayman. I would just observe that the witness is not

25 going to be able to disclose classified details about

1 his work, but he can certainly describe his duties in a

2 nonclassified manner.

3 MR. SUN: Do you understand what Mr.

4 Coppolino just said?

5 THE WITNESS: No. Can you state again?

6 MR. COPPOLINO: I just stated that the

7 witness can describe his duties at Los Alamos in a

8 nonclassified manner, but is not to divulge the

9 classified nature of any of his work in responding to

10 the question as to what your duties are.

11 THE WITNESS: Okay.

12 MR. COPPOLINO: Okay.

13 Q. What job did you get in 1978?

14 A. I get a research work on fluid mechanic.

15 Q. And, generally speaking, what kind of

16 research work?

17 A. I'm working on the computer code which deal

18 with fluid mechanic.

19 Q. And what is the computer code used for?

20 MR. COPPOLINO: Objection. Hold on. I would

21 just state that in answering the question, the witness

22 cannot disclose the application of computer codes to

23 nuclear weapons -- nuclear weapons design manufacture.

24 Thank you.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you're not saying that

1 the issue of whether or not computer codes are used

2 with relation to nuclear weapons is classified, are

3 you?

4 MR. COPPOLINO: No, that's not classified.

5 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. That's all I'm

6 looking to get here.

7 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, I was just -- I was

8 really directing my comment to him and not to you.

9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, I'm not looking to get

10 the computer codes.

11 MR. COPPOLINO: Yeah, I just wanted to tell

12 him that --

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Others already have.

14 MR. COPPOLINO: -- in describing his research

15 with respect to computer codes, he cannot describe

16 their application to nuclear weapons design.

17 MR. SUN: Do you understand?

18 THE WITNESS: Say again. I don't quite

19 understand.

20 MR. SUN: Can we take a short break, Mr.

21 Klayman? I need to consult with the Government real

22 quickly about this.

23 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the

24 record. The time is 10:12 a.m.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me put this question on

1 the record so you can consult over this.

2 Q. Do the computer codes have applicability to

3 nuclear weapons? That's my pending questions.

4 (Recess taken.)

5 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.

6 The time is 10:23. Thank you.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: I had a question pending, and

8 the Government was going to give its landmark ruling.

9 MR. COPPOLINO: The question was do computer

10 codes have application to nuclear weapons. No

11 objection to that question as long as there's no

12 reference to specific codes.

13 MR. SUN: I think that's a yes-or-no answer.

14 Q. Please answer.

15 A. I -- I -- I don't understand the question.

16 MR. SUN: Could you say it again or --

17 Q. Do computer codes have applicability to

18 nuclear weapons?

19 A. You mean the code I'm working on?

20 Q. Yes, when you -- when you worked for Los

21 Alamos beginning in 1978.

22 A. In 1978, that code has no application to

23 nuclear weapon. Is that okay? I don't know I can

24 answer?

25 Q. So the codes that you first started working

1 on at Los Alamos in 1978 did not have applicability to

2 nuclear weapons?

3 A. To my best knowledge, did not use them for

4 nuclear weapon application. Is that okay?

5 Q. What were they used for?

6 A. It's a reactor safety.

7 Q. Nuclear reactor safety?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. During the time that you worked at Los

10 Alamos, what, in addition to these codes for reactor

11 safety, have you worked on, generally speaking?

12 MR. COPPOLINO: Again, you understand not to

13 mention any code names. Do you understand that?

14 THE WITNESS: I cannot mention.

15 MR. COPPOLINO: You cannot mention code

16 names. Do you understand that?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

18 MR. COPPOLINO: Okay. Proceed.

19 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, could you repeat the

20 question?

21 A. Yeah, I'm sorry.

22 Q. Tell me the different things that you've

23 worked on, generally speaking, when you were at Los

24 Alamos.

25 A. You mean for twenty years?

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. For the last twenty years?

3 Q. Yes, yes.

4 A. Generally speaking, I work on computer code

5 and its relate to fluid mechanic for last twenty years.

6 Q. And you also worked on codes, correct?

7 A. Computer code.

8 Q. Computer codes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And later on, during your career at

11 Los Alamos, those computer codes did relate to nuclear

12 weapons, correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And when did that first occur?

15 A. I don't remember exactly, but it must be

16 around 1981 or '8- -- '80 or '81, somewhere around

17 there.

18 Q. During the time period -- when did you leave

19 Los Alamos? When were you fired from Los Alamos?

20 A. March 8, 1999.

21 Q. Why were you fired?

22 MR. SUN: Objection. You can answer. Unless

23 I direct you not to answer, you can answer the

24 question.

25 A. Bill Richardson fire me.

1 Q. Why did he fire you?

2 MR. SUN: Objection, calls for speculation.

3 A. You have to ask him. I don't know why.

4 Q. Yes, to the best of your knowledge, why were

5 you fired?

6 A. I say, you have to ask Bill Richardson. I

7 don't know why he fired me.

8 Q. You have no idea?

9 A. I have no idea.

10 Q. Did it have anything to do with allegations

11 that you had breached national security?

12 MR. SUN: Same objection.

13 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.

14 Q. You have no clue?

15 MR. SUN: Again, Mr. Klayman, no clue as to

16 why Bill Richardson fired him? Is that your question?

17 Q. Yes. You have no clue as to why you were

18 filed by Secretary of Energy Bill Richardson?

19 A. Again, to my best knowledge, I don't know

20 why -- why he fire me. I don't know.

21 Q. Now, up to the point you were fired, you did

22 have conversations with people at Los Alamos that were

23 your supervisors, did you not?

24 MR. SUN: Objection as to time frame. We're

25 talking about 1978 to the present?

1 Q. Generally.

2 A. Please repeat your question.

3 Q. You had supervisors at Los Alamos over the

4 twenty years that you were there, correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Who were your supervisors?

7 MR. SUN: Beginning in '78?

8 Q. Beginning in '78.

9 A. I can only do the best I can recall or I can

10 remember. Some of them I don't remember. In the early

11 time, it's Jim Jackson; and later, this guy called

12 Charlie Hamilton, H-A-M-I-L-T-O-N, Hamilton. I'm try

13 to do the best I can remember. There was a guy call

14 Steve White.

15 Q. Steve White?

16 A. Yeah. There was a guy call Paul Whalen,

17 P-A-U-L, Paul, Whalen, W-H-A-L-E-N. Some of them, I

18 don't remember. But those I can remember.

19 Q. When you were fired, what year was that?

20 A. March 8, 1999.

21 Q. Okay. And who was your supervisor then?

22 A. His name is Dan Butler, D-A-N, B-U-L-T-E-R

23 (sic).

24 Q. And what was Mr. Butler's job title?

25 A. To my best knowledge, he may be the acting T

1 Division leader. "T," as theoretical.

2 Q. Right. He told you why you were fired,

3 didn't he?

4 MR. SUN: Foundation.

5 A. I remember he told me -- he show me a list,

6 but I don't remember what the detail.

7 Q. What kind of list?

8 A. It's a piece paper, said, you know, you

9 violated security, you -- something like that.

10 Security. You -- again, to my best memory. I don't

11 remember the detail.

12 Q. Now, this was a very difficult period in your

13 life, wasn't it, Dr. Lee?

14 A. It's very difficult, yes.

15 Q. And it wasn't very long ago, was it?

16 A. It's 1999, March 8th, I told you.

17 Q. Okay. Only about two-and-a-half-years ago?

18 A. Um-hmm.

19 MR. SUN: You should say -- you should say

20 yes or no. The court reporter can't record you?

21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes.

22 Q. Consequently, this whole period is very vivid

23 in your memory, is it not?

24 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.

25 A. What do you mean -- say again, your question.

1 Q. You remember very well this period, because

2 it was a difficult period, correct?

3 A. I told you, I was fired March 8, 1999, yes.

4 Q. Okay. And you were fired, based upon what

5 Mr. Butler showed you, for national security

6 violations?

7 MR. SUN: Objection.

8 Q. Correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. So what were you told were the reasons

11 for your firing?

12 A. It is not national security. It's the

13 security rule at the lab. It's a security rule at the

14 lab, but not national security, no.

15 Q. So the lab has -- Los Alamos Labs has nothing

16 to do with national security?

17 MR. SUN: That's --

18 A. No, no, my question --

19 Q. That's your opinion?

20 A. No, my question is -- my answer is this: I

21 was fire. Dan Butler give me a list -- a piece of

22 paper, had some list, and some of the list has

23 something to do with a security infraction at the lab

24 and has nothing to do with the national security at

25 all.

1 Q. So you're saying that violating security

2 rules at the lab does not have anything to do with

3 national security?

4 MR. SUN: Objection, misstates his

5 testimony. It's argumentative.

6 Q. Please answer.

7 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

8 MR. SUN: Yeah. If you understand his

9 question, sure.

10 A. Please repeat your question.

11 Q. What you're saying is, is that the security

12 rules at Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratories have nothing

13 to do U.S. national security?

14 MR. SUN: That's not what he said.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Please let him answer the

16 question, and don't interrupt.

17 MR. SUN: I'll interrupt when I see fit.

18 A. I don't know whether the security --

19 MR. KLAYMAN: That kind of -- on the record.

20 That kind of attitude is a defiance of the court. I

21 hope that it doesn't continue.

22 MR. SUN: Look, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to

23 represent my client as I think it's appropriate.

24 You're badgering the witness at this point --

25 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not badgering anyone.

1 MR. SUN: -- with argumentative questions.

2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not badgering anything. It

3 was a simple question.

4 MR. SUN: You are badgering the witness.

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we'll let it speak for

6 itself.

7 MR. SUN: It will.

8 Q. Answer the question, please, sir.

9 A. Please repeat your question.

10 Q. Okay. It's your view that the security

11 regulations at Los Alamos Nuclear Labs have nothing to

12 do with U.S. national security? That's what you're

13 saying, correct?

14 A. I didn't say that. I did not say that.

15 Q. So the rules do have something to do with

16 U.S. national security, correct?

17 A. I did not -- I did not say that, too. I'm

18 not agree with you on that either. I don't know.

19 Q. These are -- these are --

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. -- technical rules that aren't that

22 important, that's what you're saying, correct?

23 A. I didn't say that either.

24 MR. LEE: Objection. I'm going to direct him

25 not to answer. This is fruitless. You can move on,

1 Mr. Klayman.

2 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

3 MR. SUN: Certify it.

4 Q. So why were you fired, if these are just

5 technical rules that don't have anything to do with

6 national security?

7 MR. SUN: Objection, calls for speculation,

8 asked and answered.

9 Q. Please answer.

10 A. Please repeat.

11 Q. What were you told was the reason for your

12 firing?

13 A. They told me I violate some security

14 infraction at the lab. That's all I know.

15 Q. They told you specifically what rules you

16 violated?

17 A. I remember one item. Do you want to know

18 that?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I remember one item. They said I -- I wrote

21 down a password, computer password, on piece of paper

22 and lock in my drawer, in my office drawer, which

23 was -- has a lock on the door, and the whole -- that's

24 inside the X Division, and then the X Division has --

25 it's behind a fence. If you want to get in, you need a

1 badge to get in. And then there's another badge, the

2 two badge you have to go in there. And they told me I

3 cannot write a password on piece of paper and lock --

4 put in my office. So that part, I remember.

5 Q. And what else were you told about the reasons

6 for your firing?

7 A. I don't remember the other item.

8 Q. Surely you asked why you were being fired,

9 correct?

10 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

11 A. I don't remember did I ask them why I get

12 fired. I did not ask them.

13 Q. You just accepted it? The firing?

14 A. I didn't --

15 Q. No questions asked?

16 A. I don't remember did I ask them any question

17 why I was fired. I just don't remember today.

18 Q. After you were fired, you were indicted, were

19 you not? You were charged with criminal violations?

20 You don't understand that question?

21 After you were indicted, you were charged

22 with criminal violations of law, correct?

23 Excuse me, after you were fired from your

24 job, the Government later indicted you for criminal

25 violations of law, correct?

1 A. I was fired in March 8th, 1999, and I was

2 indicted in December 10, 1999.

3 Q. And that was -- you were indicted for alleged

4 criminal violations of law, correct?

5 A. I -- I don't understand. I don't know how to

6 answer that question.

7 MR. SUN: It can be answered yes or no. I

8 think Mr. Klayman is just simply asking you were you

9 charged with violations of the law.

10 Q. Were you charged with violating the criminal

11 law?

12 A. I have to say, according to the indictment,

13 it looks like yes.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. However, the indictment is argumentable -- I

16 mean, the -- the indictment is wrong. That's what I'm

17 saying. It's not correct. So I don't know how to

18 answer your question.

19 Q. And after you were indicted, you were thrown

20 in prison, correct?

21 A. I was in jail for nine months, yes.

22 Q. You were in solitary confinement?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. You complained that you were thrown in

25 solitary confinement because you're Chinese; that you

1 were being discriminated against, correct?

2 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative as to

3 form -- argumentative, vague as to form.

4 Q. Correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You have claimed, have you not, that you were

7 indicted for violations of criminal law because you are

8 ethnic Chinese, correct?

9 A. I don't understand your question. Please

10 repeat.

11 Q. You have claimed that you were indicted for

12 criminal violations of law because you are ethnic

13 Chinese?

14 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

15 MR. MARSHALL: It's also vague. What do you

16 mean by "you"?

17 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, I -- I don't --

18 MR. MARSHALL: Personally?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: -- we don't need -- we don't

20 need objections from two corners. One corner.

21 MR. MARSHALL: This has been a big issue in

22 the case. You should be asking the question --

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

24 We don't need talking objections, either. Can we go

25 off the record?

1 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me. We are going

2 off the record. The time is 10:41.

3 (Discussion held off the Record.)

4 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. We're back on

5 the record. The time is 10:43.

6 Q. The question was, is that you -- you have

7 maintained that you were fired because you're ethnic

8 Chinese?

9 MR. SUN: Before you answer the question,

10 I'm going to make a statement for the record. We went

11 off the record at Mr. Klayman's request. While we were

12 off the record, we had a discussion about Mr. Klayman's

13 complaint that my co-counsel was objecting, as well as

14 I, to questions posed by Mr. Klayman in the

15 deposition. I have advised Mr. Klayman, off the record

16 and on the record, that Mr. Marshall will speak up as

17 appropriate. I will endeavor to be the primary

18 counsel, stating objections on behalf of the witness,

19 so that we have proper flow here. But while we were

20 off the record Mr. Klayman made a number of insulting,

21 derogatory comments to both me and my co-counsel. I

22 think that's wholly inappropriate. I'm not even going

23 to repeat the nature of those derogatory comments here

24 on the record because there are a number of witnesses

25 in this room that witnessed it.

1 I'm going to again request that Mr. Klayman

2 conduct this deposition in a professional, civil manner

3 and try to work out these issues in a professional and

4 appropriate way. Threats to counsel and insults do not

5 work and are wholly unproductive in this process.

6 And -- and, again, I would again ask Mr.

7 Klayman on the record, as I did off the record, to

8 avoid this kind of behavior.

9 MR. KLAYMAN: This question was a direct

10 question which deals with direct issues in this lawsuit

11 which are directly relevant. When you interject

12 speaking objections, and objections which you don't

13 have to make under the Federal Rules of Civil

14 Procedure, which are already preserved, which in fact I

15 already stipulated to, when co-counsel comes in, who

16 apparently doesn't have the same degree of experience

17 that you have, and starts making these kinds of

18 objections as well, at the same time that you're making

19 them, obstructing an ability to get an answer,

20 obviously you're going to get a response from counsel

21 here.

22 I want this thing to proceed in an orderly

23 fashion, and the very fact that you're interceding with

24 this particular question shows a lack of good faith.

25 MR. SUN: And I disagree. I also --

1 MR. KLAYMAN: And am I upset? Yes.

2 MR. SUN: I also demand that you apologize to

3 Mr. Marshall for the commends you made to him off the

4 record.

5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to apologize for

6 any comments that I made.

7 MR. SUN: Very well. And just for the

8 record, Mr. Marshall is an eminently qualified lawyer.

9 He's clerked for the U.S. Supreme Court. I don't think

10 that your comments would withstand any type of close

11 scrutiny. So you may proceed. Before you proceed, I

12 might say this: Mr. Marshall was stating, before you

13 went off the record, was that this case has already

14 caused there to be litigation over the definition of

15 what the term "you" means, Y-O-U, when you're asking

16 questions of Dr. Lee.

17 And I believe that if Mr. Marshall wants to

18 state for the record what those issues are, he's free

19 to do so. And --

20 MR. KLAYMAN: I've asked that one counsel --

21 MR. SUN: -- and our objections relate to

22 that dispute.

23 MR. KLAYMAN: -- one counsel make one

24 objection at a time. And Mr. Marshall's objections had

25 no relevancy, no bearing. As a former Supreme Court

1 clerk, he should know that the Federal Rules of Civil

2 Procedure do not require him to make objections to

3 obstruct a deposition.

4 MR. SUN: He's not doing that.

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Not objections of that sort.

6 And the record will speak for itself. No apologies are

7 warranted.

8 Q. Mr. Lee, you have maintained that you were

9 fired because you were ethnic Chinese, correct?

10 MR. SUN: Same objections.

11 A. Let me ask you, when you say "you," you mean

12 me, or you mean my counsel included? Everybody, team,

13 or just me, when you say --

14 Q. You.

15 A. Okay. You -- you say I -- I insist I was

16 fired because of I'm Chinese? Is that your question?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Let me say again. You mean I insist I was

19 fired because I'm Chinese? Am I right? Is that your

20 question?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. The answer is no.

23 Q. It has been your position that you were

24 indicted for crimes because you are ethnic Chinese?

25 MR. SUN: Same objections previously stated.

1 A. Again, you say I -- I insist because I was --

2 I'm Chinese. That's why I got indictment? Is that

3 right.

4 Q. My question was simple. I'll repeat it now

5 for the fifth time. It is your -- it has been your

6 position that you were indicted for crimes by the U.S.

7 Government because you're ethnic Chinese?

8 A. I don't understand what do you mean "is my

9 position." What do you mean that? I'm -- I have

10 limited English understanding here, so that's why I

11 want to ask you.

12 Q. How long have you been in the United States?

13 A. I came here in 1964.

14 Q. 1964. And you took courses on English?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you've lived here now for 37 years?

17 You've spoken English for 37 years?

18 A. I speak Chinese at home most the time.

19 Q. When you communicated with your workers at

20 Los Alamos, was it mostly in English?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you had to have a very good grasp of

23 English to be working at Los Alamos?

24 A. I don't understand what do you mean "grasp."

25 Q. You had to understand English pretty well to

1 get a job at Los Alamos, didn't you?

2 A. I know my English not good, and I know I get

3 a job in Los Alamos. That's all I can tell you.

4 Q. To have a job at Los Alamos is very

5 prestigious, is it not?

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. It's a very important nuclear laboratory, is

8 it not?

9 A. Maybe, but I don't know.

10 Q. And throughout your twenty years, you had a

11 very high-level job there, did you not?

12 MR. SUN: Objection. What do you mean by

13 "high level"?

14 Q. You had a very high-level job there, did you

15 not?

16 A. Again, can you explain? What do you mean

17 "high level"?

18 Q. What was -- what was your salary when you

19 left Los Alamos? How much were you making per year?

20 A. I believe I was making 82K.

21 Q. $82,000 a year?

22 A. Yes, about that.

23 Q. That's good money, isn't it?

24 A. To my best knowledge, that is very low pay at

25 the lab.

1 Q. Are you saying your position at Los Alamos

2 was not important?

3 A. No, I'm saying I -- compared to other

4 scientists, my pay is low, L-O-W. Compared to the

5 other scientists with my same background and same year

6 experience, my pay is low.

7 Q. Are you saying that you didn't have to do

8 most of your business at Los Alamos in English?

9 A. I didn't say that. I'm saying my pay is low

10 compared to other scientists.

11 Q. So let's -- let's get back to the original

12 question. It has been your position that you were

13 indicted for crimes by the U.S. Government because you

14 are ethnic Chinese, correct?

15 A. Again, I don't know -- let me repeat it. Are

16 you saying I was indict by U.S. Government, and the

17 only reason is because I'm Chinese? Is that your

18 question?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. The answer is no.

21 Q. Okay. One reason why you were indicted by

22 the U.S. Government, one reason, is because you are

23 Chinese? That has been your position, correct?

24 MR. SUN: Objection, asked and answered,

25 misstates his testimony, argumentative.

1 Q. Answer, please.

2 MR. KLAYMAN: It's a new question.

3 A. Can you repeat your question?

4 Q. One reason why you were indicted for crimes

5 by the U.S. Government is because you are Chinese.

6 That's been your position, correct?

7 A. Let me see if I understand your question.

8 You saying one of the reasons I was get indicted is

9 because I'm Chinese?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. The answer is no.

12 Q. Okay. Now, one of the reasons that you were

13 investigated for violating security regulations is

14 because you're Chinese. That's been your position,

15 correct?

16 MR. SUN: Objection.

17 A. When you say my "position," are you saying I

18 think that's a reason? I believe that's the reason I

19 got investigate, because I'm Chinese?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Is that your question?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. My best answer is I don't know. I don't know

24 why they investigate me. I don't know why they fire

25 me. Does that satisfy you?

1 Q. Have you ever accused anyone of being a

2 racist in your whole life?

3 A. Repeat your question.

4 Q. Have you ever accused anyone of being a

5 racist in your whole life?

6 A. What do you mean "accuse" in here?

7 Q. "Accuse" means did you ever charge anyone

8 with being a racist in your life.

9 A. The answer is no.

10 Q. And you've never told anyone to do that, have

11 you, on your behalf?

12 MR. SUN: Objection, to the extent that this

13 answer to this question might implicate --

14 MR. KLAYMAN: No speaking objections, please.

15 MR. SUN: -- attorney/client privilege, I'll

16 instruct the witness not to answer. You can answer it,

17 Dr. Lee, as long --

18 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask about attorneys.

19 MR. SUN: As long as it doesn't implicate any

20 attorney/client communications you can answer the

21 question.

22 Q. Did you ever tell anyone --

23 MR. KLAYMAN: And that is not subject to

24 attorney/client privilege. So this question is

25 neutral. I'm not agreeing to that.

1 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to claim that anyone

2 else was racist?

3 MR. SUN: Same admonition, Dr. Lee.

4 A. I don't understand your question. Can you

5 repeat it for me?

6 Q. Did you ever order anyone to ever make a

7 claim that anyone that lives on this earth is racist?

8 A. Let me see if I understand your question.

9 Did I ever told somebody to accuse someone, say he is a

10 racist to him? Is that --

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No. The answer's no.

13 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to claim that you

14 were investigated for violations of security

15 regulations because you're Chinese?

16 A. Say again.

17 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to make the argument

18 that you were investigated for national security

19 violations because you're Chinese?

20 MR. SUN: Same admonitions as before about

21 attorney/client privilege, Dr. Lee, but you can answer

22 the question.

23 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to answer or no?

24 MR. SUN: Yeah, so long as you don't reveal

25 attorney/client communications, you can answer the

1 question.

2 A. The answer is no.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: My same caveat. You can't make

4 that claim. That's not subject to attorney/client.

5 But we'll just leave that on the record right now.

6 Q. Do you, Dr. Lee, feel that you've been

7 persecuted because you're Chinese? Persecuted by the

8 U.S. Government?

9 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, could you repeat that

10 question? Ask the court reporter --

11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll repeat it.

12 MR. SUN: Yeah, please.

13 Q. Is it your position that you've been

14 persecuted by the U.S. Government because you're ethnic

15 Chinese?

16 A. You say prosecute?

17 Q. Persecuted.

18 A. Persecute same as a prosecute?

19 MR. SUN: Well, could you --

20 A. I don't understand.

21 Q. All right. I'll repeat it. I'll repeat it.

22 Were you singled out by the U.S. Government for

23 investigation --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- because you're Chinese? Is that your

1 position?

2 A. You mean do I feel that way?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I don't know, because I don't know why I was

5 been investigate. I don't know.

6 Q. Okay. Do you ever -- have you -- have you

7 ever met a Notra Trulock?

8 A. No, not in my life.

9 Q. Do you know who he is?

10 A. I don't know who he is.

11 Q. Do you know --

12 A. I know he sue me. That's all.

13 Q. Do you know what he -- what he used to do for

14 the Department of Energy?

15 A. I know he work for DOE. That's all I know.

16 Q. Is Mr. Trulock a racist?

17 A. What?

18 Q. Is Mr. Trulock a racist?

19 A. I don't know anything about him. I can -- I

20 don't know.

21 Q. Did Mr. Trulock single you out for an

22 investigation because you're Chinese?

23 A. I don't know why I was fired. I don't know

24 why -- why I was fired, and I don't know who make that

25 decision I was fire. The only thing I know is Bill

1 Richardson fire me in March 8, 1999.

2 Q. Did you ever tell anyone to say that Mr.

3 Trulock is a racist?

4 MR. SUN: I think that's been asked and

5 answered.

6 A. Say again.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: If that's your position. We'll

8 accept that.

9 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Trulock has been

10 called a racist in the context of your investigation

11 for national security violations?

12 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

13 A. I don't know anything about the answer. I --

14 I don't know him, and I -- I don't know anything what

15 he do or whether he's a rac -- racist --

16 Q. Racist.

17 A. -- or not. I don't know.

18 Q. Did -- did you tell your lawyers to say that

19 Mr. Trulock is a racist?

20 MR. SUN: Objection, instruct him not to

21 answer, attorney/client privilege.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: No such privilege here.

23 Certify it.

24 MR. SUN: Certify it.

25 Q. Did you -- did you --

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you mocking me, Mr. Sun?

2 MR. SUN: Oh, no, I'm not.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: You are mocking me. Certify

4 that, too.

5 A. Let me ask you, what do you mean "mocking"?

6 Q. Mocking, making fun of me.

7 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.

8 MR. SUN: He thinks I'm making fun of him.

9 He's mistaken.

10 MR. KLAYMAN: Fortunately, we have an audio

11 here.

12 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.

13 Q. Did you give permission to your lawyers to

14 say that Mr. Trulock had singled you out for an

15 investigation because you are Chinese?

16 MR. SUN: Objection, instruct the witness not

17 to answer. Implicates attorney/client privilege.

18 MR. KLAYMAN: No such thing. Certify it.

19 You are alleged, Mr. Sun, in the Complaint to

20 be an agent of Dr. Lee, and by instructing him not to

21 answer, you are obstructing this case, and you have a

22 conflict of interest, and you should withdraw

23 representation.

24 MR. SUN: Then that matter, to the extent you

25 think it's relevant or should be raised, should be

1 addressed by the Court. Okay? I think it's totally

2 frivolous for you to suggest that. So let's move on.

3 Q. Has anyone -- has it come to your attention

4 -- strike that.

5 You are aware that you were investigated for

6 national security violations?

7 A. I don't know about that.

8 Q. You are aware that you were investigated for

9 alleged security violations?

10 A. I don't know why they investigate on me.

11 Does that answer your question? I -- to my best

12 knowledge, I don't know.

13 Q. Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of

14 Robert Vrooman?

15 A. I know he work for the Los Alamos National

16 Lab, yes.

17 Q. And what was his position?

18 A. I don't know his position. I know he work

19 something -- had something to do with the security, to

20 my best knowledge. That's all I know. I don't know

21 his position.

22 Q. Do you know whether or not he has ever stated

23 that Mr. Trulock singled you out because you're Chinese?

24 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.

25 Q. Have you ever heard of anyone by the name of

1 Charles Washington?

2 A. To my best memory, I seen that name on

3 newspaper some time ago. I don't know when.

4 Q. Do you know whether or not Charles Washington

5 ever said that you were singled out for investigation

6 by Mr. Trulock because you are ethnic Chinese?

7 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.

8 Q. These issues were never raised with you by

9 anyone? This was never brought to your attention by

10 anyone --

11 A. I don't --

12 Q. -- that Mr. Vrooman and Mr. Washington said

13 that you were singled out for investigation by Mr.

14 Trulock because you're ethnic Chinese?

15 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat your question?

16 Q. These statements by Mr. Vrooman and Mr.

17 Washington, if true, that you were singled out for an

18 investigation by Mr. Trulock because you're Chinese,

19 you've never heard that discussed before?

20 MR. SUN: Objection, vague and ambiguous.

21 Q. Correct?

22 A. To my best knowledge, I don't believe I have

23 seen any statement like what you just said. To my best

24 memory. I don't -- I don't believe I have seen any

25 statement like exactly what you said.

1 Q. Okay. You are aware that one of the bases of

2 the Government's investigation was over whether or not

3 information concerning the W88 warhead had been

4 disclosed to the Chinese?

5 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

6 A. Can you repeat your question?

7 Q. You are aware that one of the bases of the

8 Government's investigation of you --

9 A. One of the basis?

10 Q. One of the reasons.

11 A. One the reasons, okay.

12 Q. Yes. Was because the -- because they

13 believed that the information about the W88 nuclear

14 warhead had been disclosed to the Chinese?

15 A. I'm sorry, you have to repeat one more time.

16 Q. You were aware that one of the reasons why

17 you were investigated was over allegations that

18 information about the W88 nuclear warhead --

19 A. Okay. Let me repeat back --

20 Q. -- was disclosed to the Chinese?

21 A. Let me repeat your question, see if I

22 understand your question.

23 Q. Sure.

24 A. Are you saying I am aware or I know the

25 reason -- one of the reason the Government investigate

1 on me is because the W88 information was leaked to

2 China? Is that what you're saying?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Again, I say I don't know. To the best

5 knowledge, I don't know why the Government investigate

6 on me. I don't know why.

7 Q. And another reason why you were investigated

8 is because you had taken trips to China, to the

9 People's Republic of China?

10 A. Again, I don't know why the Government

11 investigate on me. I don't know why.

12 Q. You don't know from any source why?

13 A. I don't know why -- what is the reason the

14 Government investigate on me. I don't know the

15 reason. I don't know why.

16 Q. No one ever told you that? No one ever told

17 you that, that one bases for investigating you is

18 because you had traveled to the People's Republic of

19 China?

20 A. To my best memory, I don't know why the

21 Government investigate on me, and I don't know -- did

22 anybody told me? I don't remember anybody told me.

23 They investigate me because I went to China? Is that

24 your question?

25 Q. Yes.

1 A. I -- I just don't remember.

2 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that one reason why

3 you were investigated is because you had had meetings

4 with nuclear scientists of the People -- People's

5 Republic of China.

6 MR. SUN: You know, at this point, I need to

7 interpose an objection, that although I may allow some

8 of this questioning to continue, I think it's now

9 venturing into the realm of -- of areas that are

10 outside the scope of this litigation. But I will allow

11 the witness to answer some more questions in the spirit

12 of trying to give you some background and context for

13 the matters that I do believe are within the scope of

14 this litigation. So you can answer the question.

15 A. The question -- the answer is, up to today, I

16 still don't know why the Government investigate on me.

17 I don't know why, and, therefore, I cannot answer all

18 the questions you just asked, because --

19 Q. All right. Are you aware that the Government

20 was concerned about the contacts that your wife Sylvia

21 Lee had with individuals in the People's Republic of

22 China?

23 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

24 Q. And that was a reason for an investigation?

25 A. Repeat, please.

1 Q. Are you aware that another reason for the

2 Government's investigation concerned the contacts

3 which -- which your wife Sylvia Lee had with

4 individuals with the People's Republic of China?

5 A. I say again, I don't understand why I was

6 being investigate, and I don't know why the Government

7 investigate on me. I don't know the reason.

8 Q. Have you ever heard of someone by the name of

9 Hu Side.

10 MR. KLAYMAN: How is that pronounced?

11 S-I-D-E?

12 MR. SUN: Hu Side.

13 Q. Hu Side.

14 A. I have heard the name, yes.

15 Q. You met with him, did you not?

16 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance. What's the

17 relevance of that question to this litigation, Mr.

18 Klayman?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: It speaks for itself. We're

20 talking about bona fide reasons for investigation.

21 MR. SUN: But, we're not -- I don't -- does

22 it have some relevance to the subject matter of the

23 litigation --

24 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

25 MR. SUN: -- which is allegations of whether

1 or not Mr. Trulock was defamed?

2 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to get into a

3 discussion in front of the witness right now. I'm

4 asking for an answer. You know what it's about.

5 Q. Did you ever meet with the anyone by the name

6 of Hu Side?

7 MR. SUN: You know, I'm going to direct him

8 not to answer that question until I --

9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

10 MR. SUN: -- until I get a proper

11 explanation.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: It's all over the record. It's

13 been briefed. I assume you get copies of briefs. Do

14 you get copies of briefs?

15 MR. SUN: If you can give me a good

16 explanation about why a meeting with someone like Hu

17 Side is relevant to this litigation, I may let him

18 answer the question.

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's have -- let's have Mr.

20 Lee leave the room, and I'll give you that courtesy,

21 even though I know full well that you know.

22 MR. SUN: Well, why don't we do at a break so

23 we don't waste your time.

24 MR. KLAYMAN: It's part of my -- my ongoing

25 deposition.

1 MR. SUN: It's you -- that's fine. Do you

2 want to a break?

3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not taking a break. I want

4 -- you asked for a proffer. I'm going to give to you.

5 Please have the witness leave the room.

6 MR. SUN: Oh, okay.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: Even though I know that you're

8 opposing this to waste time, I'm willing to do it.

9 MR. SUN: Oh, okay. Well, that's fine.

10 That's fine. Why don't you leave the room.

11 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm still on.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, leave it on the record.

13 (Mr. Lee leaves room.)

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Despite the fact that you know

15 full well what this is about, the issue of whether or

16 not -- are you listening to me?

17 MR. SUN: Yes, I am, Mr. Klayman.

18 MR. KLAYMAN: -- the issue of whether or not

19 it was proper to brand Mr. Trulock, or at least illegal

20 under the law to brand Mr. Trulock a racist and to say

21 that he was engaging in racial profiling, that

22 certainly bears on whether or not they were bona fide

23 reasons to have conducted an investigation. And it is

24 the other side of the coin of having defamed Mr.

25 Trulock by calling him a racist and saying that he

1 engaged in racial profiling. So it's directly

2 relevant. And it bears on his state of mind, it bears

3 on his intent, it bears on maliciousless in terms of

4 the alleged defamation. All of those issues. And

5 that's been out there. And it's in the public domain.

6 And the Court has not made any rulings on

7 this, as to whether or not the fact that he's a public

8 figure and maliciousness would come into it would

9 apply. He's waiting for discovery to take place. So

10 you can't really instruct him not to answer. He has to

11 be able to answer these questions.

12 MR. SUN: Well, I think the record, as I

13 understand it, as it exists now, is that Dr. Lee has

14 testified here today that he doesn't know your client,

15 he's heard his name; that he doesn't know whether he's

16 a racist or not; and doesn't recall ever having

17 communicated to anybody suggesting that he should be

18 branded or labeled a racist. So I don't understand why

19 his having met with Hu Side, or anybody else who is

20 ethnic Chinese, has anything to do with the allegations

21 of your lawsuit. And for those reasons, I would be

22 instructing him not to answer, because I think you're

23 venturing into the realm of the Government's

24 investigation of Dr. Lee, which is, I think, totally

25 outside the scope of the focus of -- of your

1 complaint.

2 Now, I will add this observation. To the

3 extent that your focus of your questions focus on Mr.

4 Trulock's role in Dr. Lee's investigation and any

5 knowledge that my client has about Mr. Trulock's

6 participation in the investigation, I think that is

7 pertinent and relevant, and I would allow him to answer

8 questions that are tied to Dr. Trulock -- or Mr.

9 Trulock and the investigation. And to the extent that

10 there's some linkage between Mr. Trulock and the

11 investigation and a meeting with Hu Side, and you can

12 establish that for the record, then I may permit him

13 into answering your questions.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't have to -- see, I

15 don't have to establish anything before you. Because,

16 you see, you forget your role. You're not the judge.

17 This is a not a trial. This is discovery. So you are

18 not the Court.

19 MR. SUN: But --

20 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm entitled to ask these

21 questions.

22 MR. SUN: But I'm entitled to protect my

23 witness from harassment, which is what -- I believe

24 these questions certainly go into that realm.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Why is it harassment to ask if

1 he meets with -- if he met with Hu Side? Why is that

2 harassment?

3 MR. SUN: Because it's outside the scope of

4 the litigation that you brought, and I don't think it's

5 appropriate for this deposition.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it harassment because Mr. Hu

7 Side is Chinese? Is that what you're saying?

8 MR. SUN: No, it's a matter of you're probing

9 into matters of an investigation that may or may not

10 have anything to do with your client's claims. To the

11 extent that you establish a nexus between your client's

12 claims and the Government's investigation of Dr. Lee,

13 I've just indicated to you, I may be willing to let him

14 answer the questions.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm going to ask the

16 questions, and you will instruct him at your own risk.

17 MR. SUN: Very well.

18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's bring him back. It's

19 unfortunate that these things, which have been gone

20 over many, many times in this case, have to be used to

21 try to run the clock out.

22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I have about 16 minutes

23 left on this videotape, just to let you know. I'll

24 give you a five-minute warning.

25 Q. Mr. Lee, did you ever meet with a Hu Side?

1 MR. SUN: Direct him not to answer.

2 Q. Do you know who Hu Side is?

3 MR. SUN: Same direction.

4 Q. Okay. He is a director in China's nuclear

5 program; is he not?

6 MR. SUN: Same direction. Don't answer.

7 Q. One of the reasons that Mr. Trulock included

8 you in a list of names for investigation was because

9 you had met in your hotel room in Beijing with Mr. Hu

10 Side, correct?

11 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. You can

12 answer the question.

13 A. Please repeat your question.

14 Q. One of the reasons why you were investigated

15 or included on a list of people to investigate, to your

16 knowledge, was because you met with Hu Side behind

17 closed doors in a Beijing hotel room, correct?

18 A. The answer is no. I don't know. I don't

19 know why I was being investigate, and, therefore, I

20 don't know is it relate to this question or not. I

21 don't know.

22 Q. When asked questions by Government

23 investigators concerning whether or not you had

24 discussed classified information with nuclear

25 scientists of the People's Republic of China, you

1 initially said that you had not, correct?

2 MR. SUN: Objection.

3 MR. COPPOLINO: Can you hold for one second,

4 Mr. Klayman? Mr. Klayman, could you consider

5 rephrasing the question, because he's not at liberty to

6 tell you what Government investigators asked him.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: We have documents to that

8 effect. It's a matter of public record. Have you read

9 them?

10 MR. COPPOLINO: I've read many documents, and

11 I know which ones you're referring to. What -- what is

12 in the newspaper isn't really relevant to --

13 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we have actual document

14 from you.

15 MR. COPPOLINO: And your question is just a

16 little broad. You're asking him -- would you just

17 restate the question, so I understand it more clearly?

18 Q. You were investigated by the Federal

19 Government for alleged security violations, correct?

20 A. Let me repeat. I don't know why the

21 Government investigate on me. I don't -- to my best

22 knowledge, I don't know why. And . . .

23 Q. No one ever told you?

24 A. I will repeat again. To my best knowledge, I

25 don't know why the Government investigate on me.

1 Q. But no one told you the alleged reasons for

2 your investigation?

3 A. Are you saying nobody told me why I was

4 investigate?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. I said, I don't know why I was investigate.

7 If somebody told me, I should know, but -- obviously.

8 Q. Okay. You do remember Government

9 investigators asking you whether you provided

10 classified information to nuclear scientists from the

11 People's Republic of China?

12 MR. SUN: Objection. As Mr. Coppolino

13 previously stated, Dr. Lee is not at liberty to discuss

14 what communications he had with Government

15 investigators. I believe that's our understanding of

16 the --

17 MR. KLAYMAN: He didn't say that.

18 MR. SUN: Well, your question --

19 MR. KLAYMAN: He asked me to rephrase the

20 question, and you're not entitled to make an objection

21 for him.

22 MR. SUN: No, I'm going to interpose this

23 objection. One, your phrasing of the question

24 suggested in communications with the Government

25 investigators. We have an understanding and an

1 agreement with the Government that we are not to

2 disclose communications with the Government in

3 interviews with the Government. And because of that,

4 I'm going to instruct him not to answer because we

5 would be in violation or breach of that agreement.

6 Now, if Mr. Coppolino believes otherwise and

7 believes I should instruct the witness to -- the

8 witness not to answer that question -- or instruct the

9 witness to answer the question, I will reconsider my

10 instruction.

11 MR. COPPOLINO: Right, just give me one

12 second.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: And let me call your attention

14 to a document, which I can put on the record, January

15 4, 2000, from John Kelly and Paula G. Burnett, U.S.

16 Department of Justice, United States Attorneys,

17 District of New Mexico, to Mark Holscher of O'Melveny &

18 Myers, and John D. Cline, Freedman, Boyd Daniels,

19 Hollander, Goldberg, & Cline, Re: United States vs.

20 Wen Ho Lee, including documents, labeled FBI Bates

21 numbers 4868 to 4950. And I'll ask that this be marked

22 as Exhibit 1.

23 (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)

24 MR. COPPOLINO: Mr. Klayman, let me just

25 state for the record, and I think this will help

1 clarify our position -- and you can correct me if I'm

2 wrong -- I'm referring to my FBI. Your question went

3 to all inquiries by Government investigation, by

4 Government investigators. Dr. Lee is not permitted to

5 disclose questions he was asked by Government

6 investigators during debriefings following the plea

7 agreement. This document does not appear to be that,

8 cover that.

9 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. I wasn't asking for

10 that.

11 MR. SUN: Okay.

12 MR. COPPOLINO: So with that clarification,

13 as long as you're not asking about what he was asked in

14 debriefings, I have no objection.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.

16 MR. SUN: And to clarify for the record, so

17 the witness understands, Mr. Klayman is not asking you

18 about any information that you communicated with the

19 Government or they communicated with you in a period

20 that began sometime around September or October 2000

21 going forward.

22 Mr. Klayman is, I believe -- and he can state

23 it correctly if I've misstated it -- asking about

24 communications you had with the Government prior to

25 that time and outside the scope of any agreement that

1 Mr. Coppolino just referred to. Okay? Okay.

2 With that admonition, please continue.

3 Q. You are -- you are aware that Federal

4 Government investigators asked you whether you passed

5 classed information to the Chinese, correct?

6 A. Repeat again.

7 Q. You are aware that Federal Government

8 investigators asked you whether or not you provided

9 classified information to -- to nuclear scientists of

10 the People's Republic of China.

11 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance. I'm going

12 to let him answer a couple of questions in this area,

13 but if goes down the road that I think it is, I'm going

14 to instruct him not to answer for reasons previously

15 stated.

16 You can answer the question.

17 A. Let me see if I understand your question.

18 You saying the invest- -- the government

19 investigator, I mean, like FBI -- they ask me the

20 question? They ask me a question did I pass classified

21 information to China? Is that your question?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. I mean, do they ask me that question?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Does this fall into the Government

1 communication or not? I want to --

2 Q. They said no.

3 MR. SUN: Actually, the question is vague and

4 ambiguous to the extent it could call for information

5 in the period that you're restricted from answering it.

6 MR. COPPOLINO: Right. The only -- the only

7 basis for our objection, and my instruction to you,

8 would be not to disclose questions that were asked of

9 you in the postplea debriefing sessions. That's it.

10 So it might be helpful if the question were directed

11 towards the time period prior to that. But in any

12 event, that is the instruction. You cannot disclose

13 the content of questions you were asked in the postplea

14 debriefing sessions.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Up to the point --

16 MR. SUN: And to make the record clear here,

17 I'm going to direct him not to answer unless you

18 specifically focus this better, Mr. Klayman. You have

19 put Exhibit 1 in front of him. Do you make reference

20 to it in the context of your question?

21 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't put it in front of

22 him.

23 MR. SUN: Then --

24 MR. KLAYMAN: You put it in front of him. I

25 didn't put it in front of him.

1 MR. SUN: Well, it was handed to us. If you

2 want it back, you can have it.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Your co-counsel put it in front

4 of him. I asked a simple que- --

5 MR. SUN: Your associate gave it to us.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: I gave it -- I gave it -- I

7 didn't put it in front of the witness. I gave it to

8 Government counsel so they could confirm that these

9 questions were asked publicly.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Lee, I'll ask the question again.

11 Up to the point where you entered into a plea agreement

12 with the U.S. Government, did U.S. Government

13 investigators ever ask you whether you'd passed

14 classified information to nuclear scientists of the

15 People's Republic of China?

16 A. Let me ask Mr. -- what?

17 MR. COPPOLINO: Coppolino.

18 THE WITNESS: -- Coppolino. You saying if --

19 if this question he ask, if it's been asked during the

20 -- how do you call that? -- the debriefing, I'm not

21 supposed to answer; is that right?

22 MR. COPPOLINO: You're not supposed to

23 indicated what was asked during the debriefings.

24 THE WITNESS: Oh. I'm not supposed to say

25 this question was been asking?

1 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, all I'm telling you is

2 the -- you're not to reveal the content of the

3 debriefings.

4 THE WITNESS: But suppose this question was

5 asked in the same time?

6 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, I understand that. And

7 I guess --

8 THE WITNESS: Should I answer or not?

9 MR. COPPOLINO: -- I understand your point,

10 and I think it -- but the last question was rephrased

11 with respect to the period prior to the debriefings.

12 Is that correct, Mr. Klayman?

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. It's very clear.

14 MR. COPPOLINO: So he's asking you for the

15 period prior to the debriefings. And as to the period

16 prior to the debriefings, you can testify as to what

17 Government investigators asked you.

18 MR. SUN: All right. I'm going to -- do you

19 understand what Mr. Coppolino said?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. I understand.

21 MR. SUN: All right. I'm going to interpose

22 an objection for reasons previously stated. This is

23 going beyond the scope. I'm going to make it easier.

24 I'm going to direct you not to answer, Dr. Lee.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: The purpose of objections is

1 not to make things easier. Is that a legal objection?

2 It's called "the objection to make things easier"? Is

3 that what you're saying, Mr. Sun?

4 MR. SUN: Dr. Lee, I'm going to direct you

5 not to answer that question.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

7 Q. There were legitimate bases to investigate

8 you for violation of security regulations, were there

9 not, Mr. Lee?

10 MR. SUN: Objection.

11 A. I have a hard time trying to understand.

12 Please --

13 Q. There were legitimate reasons to investigate

14 you, Dr. Lee, over allegations of violation of security

15 regulations?

16 A. Okay. Let me see if I understand your

17 question. Are you ask me the Government investigate on

18 me because I know the reason they investigate on me is

19 because of security violations?

20 Q. Let me see if I can make it even simpler.

21 You're not complaining that the Government investigated

22 you for security violations, are you? You don't have

23 any complaint about that?

24 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

25 A. I -- I don't have any complaint about what

100

1 the Government want to do. I have no choice. I'm a

2 citizen of this country, and the Government want to

3 investigate on me, I accept it. So does that answer

4 your question?

5 Q. And you don't believe that the Government did

6 anything wrong in having you investigated, do you?

7 A. I didn't say that. Everybody make mistake.

8 I mean, they maybe made mistake, maybe not, I don't

9 know.

10 Q. You don't have any knowledge that the

11 Government made a mistake in investigating you?

12 A. So far, I don't know why they investigate on

13 me. I still don't know why.

14 Q. And you don't have any specific information

15 that what they did was improper?

16 A. I -- I just don't know why they investigate

17 on me, and -- but I don't understand whether it's

18 proper or improper. I -- I have no knowledge.

19 Q. Has anyone ever tell -- told you -- has

20 anyone ever told you that the Government's

21 investigation on you was improper?

22 A. To my best memory, I don't believe anybody

23 told me that.

24 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that the

25 Government's investigation of you violated the law?

101

1 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

2 Do you understand the question?

3 Q. I'll repeat it.

4 A. Well, I don't know what the law, because I --

5 Q. I'm just asking, did anyone ever tell you --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- that the Government's investigation of

8 you, Dr. Wen Ho Lee, was unlawful?

9 MR. SUN: Objection as to form, vague and

10 ambiguous.

11 A. To my best memory, I -- I don't remember

12 anybody told me what you just said.

13 Q. Looking back, do you believe that you did

14 anything wrong that warranted investigation?

15 A. To my best judgment, I believe I did

16 everything, I feel it is correct, but I don't know why

17 the Government investigate on me. I don't know. I

18 don't understand that.

19 Q. So you do not accept the basis of the plea

20 agreement that you made with the Government?

21 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative. I'm

22 going to direct him not to answer that question. That

23 has no relevance to this litigation.

24 MR. KLAYMAN: It has a lot of relevance, and

25 it bears on truthfulness and veracity. He had to make

102

1 representations to the Court that he accepted the plea

2 agreement and understood what he did and regretted what

3 he did.

4 MR. SUN: Now, you're really making speeches.

5 I'm directing him not to answer. Move on.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

7 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: That's the end of

8 Videotape 1. The time is 11:30. We're going off the

9 record.

10 (Recess taken.)

11 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. We're back on

12 the record, Videotape 2. The time is 11:36.

13 Q. I'm going to show you what I'll ask the court

14 reporter to mark as Exhibit 2, which is your Notice of

15 Deposition Duces Tecum.

16 (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)

17 MR. FITTON: Mr. Sun.

18 MR. SUN: Thank you. Just so I can

19 understand, Mr. Klayman. Has Exhibit 1 been marked and

20 circulated to everyone or --

21 MR. KLAYMAN: It has.

22 MR. SUN: Okay.

23 MR. KLAYMAN: I marked it so we would have a

24 record of what I showed the Government.

25 MR. SUN: All right. Could I have my copy

103

1 back? Thank you.

2 Q. Dr. Lee, have you ever seen Exhibit 2 before?

3 A. This one?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Yes, I have seen this.

6 Q. When did you see it?

7 A. Before -- before we come into this room.

8 Q. Just today?

9 A. I saw this -- yeah, this morning, early

10 morning. I read it.

11 Q. This is an Amended Notice of Deposition Duces

12 Tecum to Wen Ho Lee. There is an attachment to this

13 Amended Notice of Deposition, "Exhibit A." Did you

14 read that before you came into the room this morning?

15 A. I read this and -- this is one document

16 similar to my wife, you know. I -- I don't know, there

17 was a few page, and I seen that maybe a few weeks ago.

18 Some time ago.

19 Q. But you didn't see yours until today?

20 A. This one, I saw today.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Almost like this, yeah.

23 Q. And has anyone ever asked you to search for

24 the documents that are requested in Exhibit A?

25 A. Yes. They asked me on the same stuff here

104

1 about maybe -- maybe two weeks ago. I don't remember.

2 Some -- some time ago.

3 Q. Who's "they"? Who asked you?

4 MR. SUN: Without getting into privileged --

5 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not privileged.

6 MR. SUN: -- you can just identify who it was

7 that asked you.

8 A. One of the lawyer in his firm.

9 Q. Did they read to you each of these paragraphs?

10 A. No, they fax to me, and I read it, and I --

11 and I did search in my house, and I --

12 Q. So they faxed you the Amended Notice of

13 Deposition Duces Tecum, Exhibit 2? It was faxed to

14 you?

15 A. No, they faxed me something similar to those

16 page here.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. But not the front page.

19 Q. Similar to "Exhibit A"?

20 A. Similar to the last two page. To the last

21 two page.

22 Q. Last two pages where it says "Requests"?

23 A. To search, yes.

24 Q. 1 through 12. But you're not sure -- that

25 the answer is yes, similar? You're nodding. You have

105

1 to give an oral response.

2 A. I say it's a similar, yes.

3 Q. But you're not sure if it's the same?

4 A. I don't remember it's identical or not. I

5 don't remember. But it's -- it's a very similar.

6 Q. Did you search for documents?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Did you find any?

9 A. I did not find any.

10 Q. Do you still have documents in your

11 possession that relate in any way to your investigation

12 and indictment and ultimate conviction?

13 MR. SUN: When you say "possession," personal

14 possession?

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

16 MR. SUN: Okay.

17 A. Please repeat your question.

18 Q. Do you have documents in your house that

19 concern the -- that come from Los Alamos?

20 A. Concern about what?

21 Q. Do you have documents in your house today

22 that emanate or come from Los Alamos Nuclear

23 Laboratories?

24 MR. SUN: Objection, vague.

25 Q. Do you have documents in your house, as of

106

1 now, that originate from Los Alamos Nuclear

2 Laboratories?

3 A. I'm trying to think. The answer is no.

4 Q. Who has those documents? Your attorneys?

5 MR. SUN: Objection, I thought I heard him

6 say no.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked him if he had them at

8 his house.

9 MR. SUN: Okay. This still assumes that he

10 has records.

11 Q. When you left Los Alamos, did you take

12 documents with you?

13 A. When I left the Los Alamos in March 8th, I

14 did not carry any document. I did not carry anything.

15 Mike Lowe can verify that. They -- Mike Lowe told me I

16 can take my car key; my cash, which was about 10 or 20

17 dollars; my driver's license; my lunch sack. To my

18 best memory, that's all I can remember. I did not take

19 any LANL document or book or report or paper. I did

20 not -- oh, yeah, they give me a piece paper that say --

21 stay -- I don't remember that either. They may give me

22 a piece paper why I get fire, but I don't remember

23 that. That's all I remember.

24 Q. Before you were fired, you had taken

25 documents and other things out of Los Alamos Nuclear

107

1 Laboratories and brought them home?

2 MR. SUN: Objection, vague.

3 A. To my best memory, I -- I may have some

4 document took home before I get fire; however, to my

5 best memory, the FBI took all of them.

6 Q. What documents did you take home?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. What kinds of documents?

9 A. You have to ask the FBI. I don't know. I

10 can't remember.

11 Q. The document -- the FBI came into your home

12 with a search warrant and took the documents?

13 A. They took about -- more than ten box. I

14 don't -- I don't know. I don't remember what's inside.

15 Q. So you had taken at least ten boxes home of

16 documents from Los Alamos --

17 A. No.

18 Q. -- before the FBI raided your home?

19 A. They took ten box. Include most of them are

20 my private -- I mean, my personal items. But some of

21 them may be -- some of them may be related to the Los

22 Alamos Lab document. Some. But I don't remember what

23 they took.

24 Q. About how much in -- given the ten boxes,

25 about how much in those boxes related to Los Alamos?

108

1 MR. SUN: Objection. Mr. Klayman, what's the

2 relevance of that to the subject matter of this

3 lawsuit?

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Discovery is that which is

5 relevant --

6 MR. SUN: Sorry. One of us --

7 MR. KLAYMAN: Discovery is that which is

8 relevant or which may lead to relevant evidence.

9 MR. SUN: I don't see the --

10 MR. KLAYMAN: First off, I'm trying to

11 identify the documents that he had, that's perfectly

12 relevant, and where they may be, because we can

13 subpoena others to get those documents.

14 MR. SUN: How does that relate to the subject

15 matter of this lawsuit, is my question.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, until I see the

17 documents, I don't know. I'm trying to find out.

18 MR. SUN: I'm going let him allow -- allow

19 him to answer a few more questions in this area. If I

20 think it's continuing down this road, I'm going to

21 direct him not to answer.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: You know, I -- this objection,

23 I think as much as any other, shows the lack of good

24 faith. It's -- it's absolutely outrageous. I don't

25 understand how an individual who's already pled guilty

109

1 to a crime -- apparently feels he did nothing wrong --

2 so I don't understand how the Court could be told that

3 he was accepting that plea agreement. That's number

4 one.

5 But assuming that's the case, how somebody

6 who's already pled guilty, that basically is off

7 scot-free, unless he lies, cannot be answering

8 questions that deal with trying to find documents that

9 may be relevant to this case. I don't understand.

10 MR. SUN: In light of your statements, which

11 I think reflect and confirm to me the fact that you

12 intend to explore areas that have nothing to do with

13 this lawsuit, I'm going to instruct him now not to

14 answer that question.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify.

16 Q. You don't know what those documents contain,

17 do you? You don't know what they're about, that were

18 taken out of your house by the FBI, correct?

19 MR. SUN: Objection, asked and answered.

20 A. I don't remember what the content of those

21 document the FBI took. But I do know, 100 percent

22 sure, it has nothing to do with this case, the Notra

23 Trulock. Has nothing to do with Notra Trulock, has

24 nothing to do with -- I don't know what you guy try to

25 accuse me. I -- I know it's nothing to do with Notra

110

1 Trulock, for sure.

2 Q. The documents that were taken out of your

3 house deal with matters related to the Government's

4 investigation of you, correct?

5 MR. SUN: Objection, calls for speculation.

6 A. I don't understand your question. Please --

7 Q. The documents which the FBI took from your

8 house are documents that were taken in the context of

9 the FBI's investigation of you, correct?

10 A. I don't understand. I'm sorry.

11 Q. All right.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let the record speak for

13 itself that I'm being blocked from learning if others

14 documents exist that may be relevant to this case.

15 A. No, I'm --

16 MR. SUN: You don't have to answer. He's

17 making a statement. He hasn't asked you a question.

18 Okay?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Because you, Mr. Sun, have

20 instructed him not to answer.

21 Q. Now, are you aware that your lawyers made a

22 defense for you in the context of your criminal

23 proceeding with the Government that you were being

24 prosecuted for selective reasons because you're Chinese?

25 A. I don't understand your question.

111

1 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge as to

2 whether or not your lawyers have made the legal

3 argument that you were prosecuted by the Federal

4 Government because you're Chinese?

5 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

6 A. Let me repeat, see if I understand your

7 question. Do I know my lawyer make a argument with or,

8 say, motion -- now I learn motion. Do I know my lawyer

9 write a motion, argue with the Government, that I was

10 investigate because I'm Chinese? Is that -- is that

11 your question?

12 Q. Almost. Do you know that your lawyers made

13 an argument with the Court after you were indicted --

14 A. Um-hmm.

15 Q. -- for alleged crimes, that you were

16 indicted --

17 A. What do you mean "allege crime"? For crime?

18 Q. For crimes.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. That you were -- let me rephrase the whole

21 thing again. Are you aware that your lawyers made an

22 argument with the Court that you were investigated and

23 indicted for alleged crimes because you're ethnic

24 Chinese?

25 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

112

1 A. To my best knowledge, I -- I -- I vague --

2 you know, very vaguely remember my lawyer --

3 THE WITNESS: Can I say anything about

4 lawyer?

5 MR. SUN: You can -- you can -- you can't

6 talk about what you and your lawyer discussed. Other

7 than that, if you can answer the question without

8 revealing what you and your lawyers discussed, then you

9 can answer the question.

10 A. Then I -- I cannot answer the question.

11 Q. No, my question was, Are you aware that your

12 lawyers made an argument before the Court, this is an

13 argument which is public, that you were investigated

14 and/or prosecuted for alleged crimes because you're

15 Chinese?

16 A. I remember there's a motion in the court. Is

17 that what you mean? And something like a -- something

18 like a selected prosecution? Is that -- is that mean

19 anything? Selective prosecution? That's -- that's all

20 I remember.

21 Q. Do you know what "selective prosecution" is?

22 A. I don't know -- I don't know exactly what

23 that mean, definition.

24 Q. Do you know generally what it means?

25 A. I -- I'm not lawyer. I don't know. But I

113

1 remember they make some argument, make something -- I

2 may be wrong, but to my best memory, it's something

3 relate to selective prosecution. Something like that.

4 Q. You authorized your lawyers to make that

5 argument?

6 A. I don't remember. What do you mean

7 "authorize" here? Do you mean I told --

8 Q. You instructed your lawyers to make that

9 argument.

10 MR. SUN: Objection. To the extent that that

11 involves you revealing attorney/client communications,

12 I instruct you not to answer.

13 Do you understand the question?

14 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to answer?

15 MR. SUN: If you can answer the question

16 without revealing communications between you and your

17 counsel, you can do so. If you can't answer the

18 question without revealing communications you have with

19 your criminal counsel, Dr. Lee, you should not answer

20 the question.

21 A. I cannot answer.

22 Q. Okay. So am I to assume, the fact that you

23 can't answer that question, that you did instruct your

24 lawyers to make that argument, that you were being

25 singled out because you're Chinese?

114

1 MR. SUN: Objection, I'm sorry, I don't --

2 vague and ambiguous.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, if he didn't instruct

4 them, then it's not covered by attorney/client

5 privilege.

6 Q. Did you not instruct your client -- did you

7 not instruct your lawyers to make the argument that you

8 were being singled out because you're Chinese?

9 MR. SUN: And I think he said he can't answer

10 that question without revealing the communication.

11 MR. KLAYMAN: No, no, no. I'm saying -- I'm

12 saying -- please, listen to the question.

13 Q. Is it true that you did not instruct your

14 lawyers, you did not communicate with your lawyers, to

15 put forward a defense that you were being singled out

16 because you're Chinese?

17 A. To my best memory, I do not remember whether

18 I instruct my lawyer or not. I just don't remember now.

19 Q. Now, that proved to be a very important part

20 of your defense, did it not --

21 MR. SUN: Objection as to the form.

22 Q. -- the claim that you were being singled out

23 because you're Chinese?

24 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

25 A. To my best memory, I do not remember whether

115

1 I told my lawyer or not about -- about selective

2 prosecution. I just don't remember today.

3 Q. That was an important part of your defense,

4 correct?

5 A. I don't remember whether I instruct them to

6 do that or not. I just don't remember.

7 MR. SUN: I don't think that's his question,

8 Mr. -- Dr. Lee. Listen to his question.

9 Q. You are aware that that was part of your

10 defense, was it not, that you were being prosecuted

11 because you were Chinese?

12 A. I don't remember exactly what you said, but I

13 remember that something called selective prosecution --

14 or selective -- something like that. It's part of the

15 important defense, yes, I remember. There was a motion

16 like that. I don't know whether they said what you

17 just said. I don't remember that, the detail.

18 Q. Well, since it was so important, you would

19 remember it, wouldn't you?

20 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

21 Q. Since it was so important, you would remember

22 whether you --

23 A. I -- I having something more --

24 Q. -- instructed your lawyers, correct?

25 A. I have something more important than the

116

1 whole case.

2 Q. If you had lost this case, you could have

3 gone to jail for the rest of your life, correct?

4 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

5 Q. You were aware of that, correct, at the time?

6 A. I don't know. I don't know whether I would

7 go to jail for the rest of life or not. I don't know.

8 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that if you lost the

9 case that the Government brought against you, you could

10 go to jail for your life?

11 MR. SUN: Same as previous admonitions about

12 attorney/client privilege; otherwise, you can answer

13 the question, Dr. Lee.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you know, to be

15 attorney/client privilege, it has to be a confidential

16 communication, something which is inherently

17 confidential. The fact that there's a life penalty for

18 violating national security is not a confidential

19 subject to any attorney/client privilege. That's a

20 publicly known fact.

21 MR. SUN: All I've said is that anything that

22 involves him revealing attorney/client communications,

23 he would be instructed not to answer on. Other than

24 that, he can answer the question.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: But what I'm saying is, is that

117

1 that's not a covered and privileged attorney/client

2 communication, because it's simply the law.

3 MR. SUN: Well, you're entitled to your view

4 of the law. I'm just merely instructing the witness

5 based upon what I believe to be the law.

6 Q. Okay. Did anyone ever tell you that if you

7 lost your case with the Government, that you could go

8 to jail for the rest of your life?

9 A. Anyone? Do you mean including my lawyer or

10 not including my lawyer?

11 Q. Anyone.

12 A. No anyone including my lawyer?

13 Q. Yes.

14 MR. SUN: And I'm instructing you that if

15 it's going to involve communications between you and

16 your lawyer to answer the question, then you should not

17 answer the question, but if you can answer it without

18 revealing communications with your lawyer, then please

19 answer the question.

20 A. The answer is no. No.

21 Q. Okay. Now, you said other things were more

22 important to you. What other things were more

23 important to you? Please tell us.

24 A. Fishing.

25 Q. What?

118

1 A. Fishing.

2 Q. Fishing?

3 A. Catch fish.

4 Q. Fishing is important?

5 A. It's very important to my life.

6 Q. Why is that?

7 A. I enjoy.

8 Q. And you can't fish in jail?

9 A. That's very correct.

10 Q. Anything else important to you?

11 A. Musics. I like musics.

12 Q. Can't listen to music in jail?

13 A. Not for two, three months. Not after my

14 lawyer has to fight with the Government.

15 Q. So, therefore, the defenses that were raised

16 on your behalf were very important, because unless you

17 got out of jail, you couldn't go fishing or listening

18 to music, correct?

19 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

20 A. What is your question?

21 Q. I said, therefore, the legal arguments that

22 your lawyers made for you to try to get you out of jail

23 were important, because otherwise you couldn't go

24 fishing or listen to music.

25 A. Yes.

119

1 Q. And, therefore, you would have remembered

2 those arguments, correct, if you had authorized them?

3 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

4 Q. Correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When you worked at Los Alamos, did you have a

7 reputation at Los Alamos for having a bad memory?

8 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

9 A. You have to ask the people in Los Alamos. I

10 don't know.

11 Q. Is it your position that you have a bad

12 memory?

13 A. I remember something which is important to

14 me, and I don't remember something which is not

15 important to me.

16 Q. So consequently, the issue of whether or not

17 you were singled out for an investigation and then

18 prosecution by the Federal Government because you're

19 Chinese is not important, and that's why you don't

20 remember?

21 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

22 Q. Correct?

23 A. I did not say that. I said there is a

24 motion, I can barely remember it, something to do with

25 the selective prosecution, or something to do with

120

1 that, but I don't remember the detail inside. I didn't

2 say it's not important. I didn't -- I just don't

3 remember now.

4 Q. Well, you told me that you remember what's

5 important and you don't remember what's unimportant.

6 That's what you said, isn't it?

7 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

8 You can answer that yes or no, Dr. Lee.

9 A. Please repeat your question.

10 Q. You have previously testified, just a few

11 moments ago, that you remember that which is important,

12 and you do not remember that which is not important.

13 That's what you testified to, correct? Did you testify

14 to that?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Are you aware that your lawyers made

17 statements to the Court and in public that you were

18 investigated and then prosecuted because you're ethnic

19 Chinese?

20 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

21 A. Let me see if I understand your question. Do

22 I know my lawyer make a statement, say I been

23 investigate or been prosecute because I'm Chinese? Is

24 that --

25 Q. Yes.

121

1 A. -- is that your question?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. You mean did my lawyer make a statement on

4 that?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. To my best knowledge -- memory, I cannot

7 remember that either.

8 Q. You certainly never told anyone to make that

9 statement, did you?

10 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

11 A. I may have told my lawyer, but I don't

12 remember today.

13 Q. Do you think you might remember tomorrow?

14 MR. SUN: Objection.

15 Q. Based on your experience and the way that

16 your memory works, do you think you might remember

17 tomorrow after this deposition is over?

18 A. If I don't remember today, I probably, most

19 likely, I don't remember tomorrow.

20 Q. And you won't remember at the time of the

21 trial of this lawsuit, will you, based on your

22 experience with your memory?

23 MR. SUN: Objection, you're badgering the

24 witness. I instruct him not to answer. Move on.

25 Q. Does your memory sometimes come back to you

122

1 later? You can answer the question.

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. You don't remember that either?

4 A. I don't know if my memory will come back or

5 not. I don't know.

6 Q. Now, one of the reasons why you were

7 investigated by the Federal Government is because the

8 Federal Government believed that you were not truthful

9 with it, correct?

10 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. What's the

11 relevance in this litigation, Mr. Klayman?

12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll use another word.

13 Q. One of the reasons that you were investigated

14 by the Federal Government is because the Government

15 believed that you lied to it, correct?

16 MR. SUN: Is there some connection between

17 that question, Mr. Klayman, and Mr. Trulock and his

18 lawsuit here?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, there is.

20 MR. SUN: What is that?

21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not going to say it in

22 front of the witness. You know what it is.

23 MR. SUN: I'm going to direct him not to

24 answer until I --

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

123

1 Q. You are aware that you failed polygraph

2 examinations given by the Government, correct?

3 MR. SUN: Objection, direct him not to

4 answer.

5 Q. You --

6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

7 Q. You are aware that you contacted an

8 individual who was under investigation for security

9 violations and then lied to the Federal Government and

10 told them that you did not contact that person?

11 MR. SUN: Objection --

12 Q. -- correct?

13 MR. SUN: Objection, direct him not to

14 answer.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

16 Q. You are aware that there were specific

17 reasons why you were investigated, Mr. Lee, correct?

18 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

19 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

20 MR. SUN: Yeah, if you can understand the

21 question, sure.

22 A. I repeat again, even today, I don't know why

23 the Government investigate on me.

24 Q. So as far as you know, the fact that you had

25 contacted someone under investigation had nothing to do

124

1 with your being investigated?

2 MR. SUN: Objection as to form, and I'd also

3 direct him not to answer for reasons previously stated.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

5 We can break for lunch now.

6 MR. SUN: Okay. How long do you want to

7 take?

8 MR. KLAYMAN: An hour.

9 MR. SUN: Okay.

10 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the

11 record. The time is 12:07 p.m.

12 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.

13 The time is 1:20 p.m. Thank you.

14 Q. You realize you're still under oath, Mr. Lee?

15 A. Um-hmm, yes.

16 Q. In waging your criminal defense, who were

17 your lawyers?

18 A. There are several lawyers. The major one I

19 know is Mark Holscher.

20 Q. How is that name spelled?

21 A. I do the best I can. M-A-R-K, H-O-R- --

22 Q. H-O-L-S-C-H-E-R?

23 A. Yeah, I can't remember.

24 Q. Okay. And he's with the law firm of

25 O'Melveny & Myers?

125

1 A. That's correct, yeah.

2 Q. Okay. Were there other lawyers at O'Melveny

3 & Myers that you worked with?

4 A. The two, three other guy, and some doesn't

5 stay very long; some stay long. I don't know.

6 Q. Do you remember any of them?

7 A. I know there was a one woman called Tina Hua

8 H-U-A. She did not stay very long. And there's

9 another guy call Myer, M-Y-E-R. How you spell Myer?

10 Q. From that same law firm of O'Melveny & Myers?

11 A. Yeah, yeah. How do you spell. I don't know

12 how you spell?

13 MR. SUN: Spelled the same way.

14 Q. How did you find O'Melveny & Myers to

15 represent you? Did they contact you and offer their

16 representation?

17 A. My daughter look -- I mean, my daughter, she

18 go out look for the lawyer for me. I -- I did not go

19 contact, no.

20 Q. What's the name of your daughter?

21 A. Alberta Lee, A-L-B-E-R-T-A. Alberta Lee.

22 Q. And during the time that you were in prison,

23 did Alberta Lee visit you many times?

24 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

25 Q. She visited you frequently?

126

1 A. She visit me several time, but I -- I don't

2 remember how many time.

3 Q. About how many times per week?

4 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

5 A. To my best memory, there's only one visit per

6 week.

7 Q. And she was usually the person who came for

8 that visit?

9 A. No. My wife usually came, my wife.

10 Q. Okay. So during the time you were in prison,

11 you were allowed one visit per week, or could you have

12 more?

13 MR. SUN: You mean from family, Mr.

14 Klayman?

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

16 A. From my family, there's only one visit per

17 week.

18 Q. And did your wife Sylvia frequently come with

19 Alberta?

20 A. Not very frequent, but my daughter came

21 several time. I don't remember how many time. She

22 come several time.

23 Q. How long were you in prison?

24 A. I -- I was in prison for nine month.

25 Q. Okay. So about how many visits did you have

127

1 from your family during that time?

2 A. Well, see one month has four weeks, that's

3 about 36 week.

4 Q. Thirty-six visits?

5 A. Thirty-six visit, maybe.

6 Q. Were you allowed to speak with your family by

7 phone while you were in prison?

8 A. To my best memory, for the first month or so,

9 I have a hard time to make a phone call to anybody.

10 Then later, they said I can make a phone call to my

11 family two -- twice a day -- I mean, twice a week, but

12 I don't remember exactly. Like one was like a morning

13 and the other one was like a afternoon. But each time,

14 I only allowed to make a phone call for no more than 15

15 minutes to my -- to my family.

16 Q. So you could have two phone calls a week to

17 your family?

18 A. They say that, but in the reality, it's

19 almost better -- I mean to jail, because I have to call

20 the guard in my jail, tell him, say, "I like to make a

21 phone call tomorrow." And the guard has to call the

22 control center, where there is another guard, tell him,

23 "Wen Ho Lee like to make a phone call tomorrow." And

24 then that control center tower, has to call the

25 administrator. I remember the first guy is like

128

1 Garcia, Marvin Garcia. And then later was a lady. I

2 don't remember her name. And so this is one, two,

3 three phone call. They have to make three phone call

4 and make sure all those three people available, then

5 the phone will go through. And then the lady will come

6 to set up the phone tomorrow.

7 Q. I don't care about the procedure, just that

8 you can do it.

9 A. But I'm trying to tell you, it was so

10 difficult, many, many time when the control people

11 called administrator and she's not in or he's not in

12 today, and then I don't have chance. So through all

13 nine months, I probably make no more than -- I don't

14 remember -- maybe three or four phone call, and that's

15 it. And then I give up, because so difficult.

16 Q. But when you met with your family, did you

17 sometimes give them things that you had written down?

18 A. The first time I wrote something, I want to

19 talk to my family, because I -- I cannot remember what

20 I want to talk to them, so I wrote on a piece paper,

21 and the FBI make a Xerox copy of it. And that happen

22 maybe two time or three time, I don't remember. But

23 after that, I don't write anything. I just go to see

24 and talk.

25 MR. SUN: And, Mr. Klayman, just for the

129

1 record, some of your questions now may overlap or

2 implicate spousal and marital communications

3 privilege. I'm not going to direct the client not to

4 answer, but I just would note for the record that

5 communications between Mrs. Lee and her husband are

6 protected by spousal marital privileges. But, again,

7 I'm going to permit questioning in this area to the

8 extent I think it is appropriate.

9 So you may answer the question, Dr. Lee.

10 Q. Did your wife sometimes come with legal

11 documents to show you? Your wife or your daughter, did

12 they sometimes show you legal documents from the

13 lawyers?

14 A. To my best memory, there's only one time my

15 son come, and he show me his master degree thesis on

16 bioengineering, the thesis, and he open up his thesis,

17 I look at the mathematical equation, and that's the

18 only time I remember.

19 Q. And what's your son's name?

20 A. My son's name Chung, C-H-U-N-G.

21 Q. Chung Lee?

22 A. Yes, that's the -- that's the only time I

23 remember.

24 Q. In addition to the lawyers at O'Melveny &

25 Myers, did you have other lawyers that represented you

130

1 during the criminal proceeding, such as Mr. Sun, Mr.

2 Brian Sun?

3 MR. SUN: You're asking about for the

4 criminal proceeding, Mr. Klayman?

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

6 A. I know John Cline. He sit there.

7 Q. John Cline?

8 A. Yeah, his office has several people represent

9 me.

10 Q. Okay. Who, in addition to Mr. Cline, from

11 his office represented you?

12 A. I know Nancy Hollander, H-O-L-L-A-N-D-E-R.

13 Q. Who else?

14 A. And there is a lady K.C. Maxwell, maybe.

15 Q. Okay. Anyone else?

16 A. That's -- to my best knowledge, that's all I

17 know.

18 Q. What about the law firm of O'Neill, Lysaght,

19 L-Y-S-A-G-H-T, if I'm pronoucing that correctly, & Sun.

20 Did it represent you?

21 MR. SUN: In the criminal proceedings?

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

23 A. To my best knowledge, no.

24 Q. Did that law firm represent you in any

25 respect?

131

1 A. Well, he represent me on -- on this case.

2 Q. The one that you're here on today?

3 A. Yes. And I think they also represent me on

4 the civil suit, because of illegal leak or something.

5 Q. This is a civil case over alleged violations

6 of your privacy rights?

7 A. Something like that, yes.

8 Q. But all your lawyers conferred with each

9 other with regard to all matters, correct?

10 A. I don't know about that. Personally, I don't

11 have any idea.

12 Q. Did any of your lawyers work with public

13 relations firms?

14 A. I don't know.

15 MR. SUN: Objection, to the extend that any

16 of that calls for divulging privileged information.

17 MR. KLAYMAN: How is that privileged?

18 MR. SUN: I'm just saying to the extent that

19 it might involve divulging confidential communications,

20 I object. I've not instructed him not to answer.

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. You are aware that your lawyers had contact

23 with the courts concerning you, correct?

24 A. You mean the courthouse here?

25 Q. Yes, and other courts.

132

1 A. Like at Judge Parker court?

2 Q. Yes.

3 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

4 A. Say your question again.

5 Q. You are aware that your lawyers were in

6 contact with courts in defending you and bringing

7 lawsuits for you?

8 MR. SUN: Same objection.

9 Q. You're aware of that?

10 A. They, you know, represent me and sort of

11 defense me. That part I know, yes.

12 Q. So the answer is yes?

13 A. Yes. Well --

14 Q. And you are aware that your lawyers were in

15 contact with the media concerning what was happening to

16 you?

17 A. That part, I don't know. To my best

18 knowledge, I don't know.

19 Q. You don't know one way or the other?

20 A. I -- I don't know whether they contact or not.

21 Q. You're aware that your lawyers sometimes talk

22 to reporters about you, are you not?

23 A. It's a very possible that sometime they talk

24 to, but I don't know for sure.

25 Q. In fact, your lawyers told you that they

133

1 talked to reporters about you sometimes?

2 MR. SUN: Objections, privileged, instruct

3 him not to answer.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

5 Q. You are aware that your lawyers talked to the

6 media about allegations that you were being singled out

7 because of your ethnic heritage as Chinese, correct?

8 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. Also

9 instruct him not to answer to the extent it implicates

10 any communications between counsel and Dr. Lee.

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

12 Q. You are aware that your lawyers talked to the

13 media about allegations that you, Wen Ho Lee, were

14 being singled out because you were Chinese, correct?

15 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

16 A. I'm not aware of what you just said.

17 Q. So if your lawyers talked to the media about

18 allegations that you were being singled out because you

19 are Chinese, those discussions would have been

20 unauthorized by you, correct?

21 MR. SUN: Objection as to form,

22 argumentative, improper hypothetical.

23 You can answer it if you understand the

24 question, Dr. Lee.

25 A. I don't quite understand your question.

134

1 Q. If your lawyers talked to reporters in the

2 media and told those reporters that you were being

3 investigated and prosecuted because you were Chinese,

4 that was the reason, you didn't authorize that, did

5 you?

6 MR. SUN: Same objection.

7 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

8 MR. SUN: If you understand the question. As

9 long as you don't divulge anything from the

10 attorney/client privilege, you can answer the question,

11 Dr. Lee.

12 A. Let me repeat. You say if my lawyer told the

13 reporter, right?

14 Q. Um-hmm.

15 A. That part, I don't know. To my best memory,

16 I don't remember.

17 Q. All right. But --

18 A. If my lawyer told any media about anything, I

19 don't remember. So there's no sense to go the second

20 part.

21 Q. Well, I get to ask the questions. And the

22 question is, if your lawyers did talk to the media and

23 told the media that you were being investigated and

24 then prosecuted because you're Chinese, you didn't

25 approve of that, did you? You would not have approved

135

1 of that?

2 A. My answer is, I don't know whether my lawyer

3 talk to the media about what you said in the second

4 part. Therefore, I cannot answer the whole thing,

5 because I don't know the first part. The first part is

6 questionable to me, and I cannot take that part as true

7 and then answer the second part.

8 Q. Did you ever tell your lawyers to talk to the

9 media and tell the media that you were being

10 investigated and prosecuted because you're Chinese?

11 MR. SUN: Objection. Instruct the witness

12 not to answer.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

14 Q. How many times did you meet with your lawyers

15 each week while you were in prison?

16 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance.

17 MR. KLAYMAN: We have a standing stipulation

18 on that, so please don't interrupt.

19 A. To -- to my best memory, I believe I meet

20 with my lawyer once a week and maybe one hour a week or

21 maybe a little more than one hour a week. That's to my

22 best memory. And it's only either John Cline or Nancy

23 Hollander.

24 Q. During the time that you were in prison, did

25 you also talk by telephone with Brian Sun?

136

1 A. To my best memory, I don't believe I ever

2 talk to Brian Sun when I was in jail. I don't -- I

3 don't believe so. I cannot remember.

4 Q. Did you talk to Brian Sun before you went to

5 jail?

6 A. I saw to Brian Sun before I went to jail,

7 yes.

8 Q. Why did you see him?

9 MR. SUN: To the extent it involves you

10 divulging any attorney/client communications, Dr. Lee,

11 don't answer the question. But if you can answer it

12 without doing that, you may do so.

13 A. I cannot answer the question.

14 Q. Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

15 ever tell you that you should use as a defense that you

16 were being singled out because you're Chinese?

17 MR. SUN: Objection, attorney/client

18 privilege. Instruct the witness not to answer.

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

20 Q. Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

21 ever tell you that they were going to put forward this

22 defense to the media?

23 MR. SUN: Same objection. Instruct the

24 witness not to answer.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

137

1 Q. Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

2 ever tell you that they were going to defend you by

3 branding my client Notra Trulock a racist?

4 MR. SUN: Same instruction.

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

6 Q. Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

7 ever tell you that they were going to defend you, Wen

8 Ho Lee, by branding our client Notra Trulock a racist

9 and alleging that he singled you out for investigation?

10 MR. SUN: Instruction -- same instruction.

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

12 Q. Did Brian Sun, or any of your other lawyers,

13 ever tell you that they intended to destroy Notra

14 Trulock's reputation and thereby defend you?

15 MR. SUN: Same instruction to the witness.

16 Also, the question is argumentative.

17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

18 Q. How many times have you spoken to Brian Sun

19 since you got to know him? Just generally.

20 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

21 MR. SUN: Yeah, you can -- you can answer the

22 question.

23 A. To my best memory, I -- I talk to Brian Sun

24 very, very little. Not very often.

25 Q. About how many times?

138

1 A. I don't remember how many times, but it's

2 very small number.

3 Q. You're aware that Brian Sun represents other

4 Chinese clients who have been involved in criminal

5 investigations?

6 MR. SUN: Objection, relevance. You can

7 answer the question, though.

8 A. I don't know what kind of criminal -- are you

9 say criminal what?

10 Q. Investigations.

11 A. -- investigate. I don't know what kind of

12 criminal investigation Brian Sun is involved. I don't

13 know.

14 Q. Are you aware that he represents other

15 Chinese? Correct?

16 MR. SUN: Same objection.

17 Q. Other than you.

18 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.

19 Q. You don't know?

20 A. Uh-huh.

21 Q. Are you aware --

22 MR. SUN: Is there some relevance to that --

23 this line of questioning, Mr. Klayman?

24 Q. Are you aware that Brian Sun as a reputation

25 in the legal community of using race-based defenses to

139

1 defend his clients?

2 MR. SUN: Objection. I'm going to

3 instruct --

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that -- is that funny?

5 MR. SUN: I'm going to instruct the witness

6 not to answer the question --

7 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't interrupt.

8 MR. SUN: -- because I don't think it has

9 anything to do with the subject matter of this

10 lawsuit. If you want to lay a proper foundation for

11 why you think this line of questioning is pertinent,

12 I'll be happy to entertain it, Mr. Klayman. I just

13 don't see the relevance to the issues raised in this

14 lawsuit.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: It's been in pleadings, it's

16 been in oral arguments, it's out there Mr. Sun. It's

17 been part of this case. You can answer the question.

18 MR. SUN: I'm objecting not only as to form,

19 but also because I think that this question is not

20 designed to lead to the admissibility of evidence or to

21 the discovery of admissible evidence, and, therefore,

22 I'm going to instruct Dr. Lee not to answer the

23 question --

24 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

25 MR. SUN: -- in that form.

140

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

2 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Sun has been called

3 the Johnny Cochran of the Asian Bar Association?

4 MR. SUN: Objection, for the same reasons I

5 just stated. And, you know, I don't know if this is

6 accurate or not, but I've been told it's you, Mr.

7 Klayman, who has come up with that statement. But

8 whether it's true or not, I'm instructing my client not

9 to answer unless you can lay a better foundation for

10 why this line of inquiry is even relevant to this

11 litigation at hand.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not me, Mr. Sun, that's

13 come up with that.

14 Q. Answer the question.

15 MR. SUN: I've instructed him not to answer.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Certify it.

17 Q. You are aware that an integral part of your

18 legal defense in the criminal case brought against you

19 by the federal government was that you were being

20 singled out because you're Chinese?

21 MR. SUN: Objection as to form, asked and

22 answered.

23 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

24 MR. SUN: Yes, you may.

25 A. Please repeat your question.

141

1 Q. No, I'll withdraw the question. You --

2 during the time you were in prison, you were aware that

3 your family was assisting the lawyers to defend you?

4 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.

5 Q. You know nothing about that?

6 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.

7 Q. What do you mean when you say to your best

8 knowledge, you don't know? Either you have knowledge

9 or you don't know. Which is it?

10 A. I mean, to my best memory -- I'm trying to

11 say to my best memory, I don't know whether my family

12 has assisted them or not. I don't know.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Does that answer your question?

15 Q. Your family did assist you in helping to

16 defend you --

17 MR. SUN: Objection.

18 Q. -- did it not?

19 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

20 A. To my best memory and best judgment, I don't

21 believe so.

22 Q. Alberta helped find the lawyers which

23 defended you in the criminal proceeding.

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Okay. So isn't that assistance?

142

1 A. Is that -- is that what you mean,

2 "assistant," then? What you --

3 Q. Well, you don't know what the word

4 "assistance" means?

5 A. Not quite your definition, because I don't --

6 Q. In 37 years of being in this country, you

7 don't know what the word "assistance" means?

8 MR. SUN: Objection, instruct the witness not

9 to answer. That's badgering the witness.

10 Q. Do you know what the word "assistance"

11 means? Did you learn that in 37 years of being here?

12 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative.

13 Q. Do you know what the word "assistance" means?

14 A. I know what that mean to my best knowledge.

15 Q. What does "assistance" mean?

16 A. To help somebody else.

17 Q. Isn't that -- isn't that the word I used,

18 did your family help you in defense of your case, and

19 you said no? That's what you testified to, correct?

20 A. I didn't say that. You twisted words. I

21 didn't say that. I'm saying -- you asked me when my

22 family come to the jail to see me, are they assisting

23 me to -- to the lawyers. Well, my impression was that

24 my -- my family member talk to the lawyer and tell them

25 to, you know, help me on my case. Is that -- is that

143

1 what you mean? That's my understanding. That's why.

2 I want to make sure I understand your question first.

3 And I tell you, I don't know. I don't know.

4 Q. I think the record speaks for itself. What

5 role did Alberta play in finding your lawyers?

6 A. I told you already. She find a lawyer

7 because she speak English better than me. I cannot --

8 I don't know even where to find a lawyer. She said

9 she -- she know how to find, so she found a lawyer.

10 Q. And Alberto would confer with those lawyers

11 in coming up with strategy, correct, to defend you?

12 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. He's already

13 answered that question.

14 Q. Alberta would confer with your lawyers in

15 coming up with a strategy to defend you, correct?

16 MR. SUN: Asked and answered.

17 THE WITNESS: Can I answer?

18 MR. SUN: Yeah, if you understand it.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. You sometimes gave Alberta instructions on

21 how to communicate with your lawyers, did you not?

22 MR. SUN: Objection. At what time frame are

23 you talking about?

24 MR. KLAYMAN: While he was under indictment.

25 A. To my best memory, I don't believe I give any

144

1 instruction to Alberta. I don't remember.

2 Q. Alberta sometimes discussed what was going on

3 in defending you, did she not, what was happening, what

4 your lawyers were doing?

5 MR. SUN: Following his arrest?

6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

7 A. You mean when I was in jail? Is that what

8 you mean?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. To my best memory, I don't believe Alberta

11 talk to me about the case or the defense, you know,

12 what you just ask. I don't believe so.

13 Q. Did any of your other family members ever

14 talk to you about the case or the defense?

15 A. To my best memory, the answer is no.

16 Q. Did Alberta ever have contact with an

17 individual by the name of Cecilia Chang about you?

18 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.

19 Q. Do you know who Cecilia Chang is?

20 A. I know who she is, yes.

21 Q. How did you -- how did you come to know who

22 she is?

23 A. I know her for a long time.

24 Q. When did you first meet Cecilia Chang?

25 A. I don't remember when, but it must be more

145

1 than 15 years ago, but I don't remember when.

2 Q. Under what circumstances did you meet her?

3 A. I don't remember either.

4 Q. She's a very close friend, is she not?

5 A. What do you mean "close friend"? Your

6 definition. Like what?

7 Q. What do you mean by "close friend"?

8 A. Well, I like to hear your definition first.

9 Q. Do you know what a "friend" is?

10 A. I know -- yes, friend.

11 Q. Okay. Is she a good friend --

12 A. No, no --

13 Q. -- Cecilia Chang?

14 A. -- what is your definition of friend. Tell

15 me first. What do you mean, "friend"?

16 Q. I'm not being deposed. Do you know what a

17 friend is?

18 MR. SUN: The witness is trying to get a

19 clarification.

20 A. I'm trying to understand your English,

21 because I'm not --

22 Q. You don't know what a friend is?

23 MR. SUN: He wants to get your understanding

24 and definition of what you --

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I took -- I took "close"

146

1 out of it, and there's no adjective.

2 Q. Do you know what a friend is?

3 A. Well, tell me your definition of "friend."

4 Q. You don't know what a friend is?

5 A. I want to hear the definition -- your

6 definition of friend.

7 Q. No, I'm asking you. What's your definition

8 of a friend?

9 A. Well, my definition of friend is this:

10 Suppose somebody want to kill you, and he said he will

11 go fight him for you, and he doesn't care if that guy

12 would kill him. Then he's your friend.

13 Q. Under your definition, is Cecilia Chang your

14 friend?

15 A. Again, I want to know your definition.

16 Q. No, I'm going by your definition. I'm not

17 being deposed Mr. -- Dr. Lee. Under your definition of

18 "friend," is Cecilia Chang your friend?

19 A. You see, I have to understand your question.

20 I have to understand --

21 Q. I'm using your answer. Look, you don't tell

22 me what to do. I'm asking the questions.

23 MR. SUN: All right. I'm going to instruct

24 the witness not to answer. Mr. Klayman, for the

25 record, is pointing his finger at Dr. Lee, trying to

147

1 intimidate and badger him, and this has got to stop.

2 So we either do a couple of things, Mr.

3 Klayman: Either you knock it off, or we all take a

4 break here, and everybody cools off and we try to

5 revisit this area. Okay?

6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm using his definition I'm

7 cool. I'm letting him use his definition.

8 MR. SUN: Then you stop pointing your finger

9 at Dr. Lee.

10 MR. KLAYMAN: I have a pen in my hand. I'm

11 not pointing my finger at anybody.

12 MR. SUN: You were pointing your pen right at

13 him in a threatening manner, and that's going to stop

14 it. Got it?

15 MR. KLAYMAN: That is not a threatening

16 manner, and I --

17 MR. SUN: You're pointing it at me now.

18 MR. KLAYMAN: That's the way I communicate.

19 I have a pen in my hand. Go ahead, put the camera on

20 it, the pen in my hand.

21 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: It's on, sir.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.

23 MR. SUN: The record will speak for itself.

24 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's not play games. Let's

25 not play games.

148

1 MR. SUN: Quit pointing, Mr. Klayman. Just

2 ask your question.

3 Q. Dr. Lee, under your definition of "friend,"

4 is Cecilia Chang a friend?

5 MR. SUN: You can answer that question, Dr.

6 Lee, if you understand it.

7 A. The example I just told you, you know,

8 between you -- him, this case, it's never happen to me

9 between -- it never happened between Cecilia Chang and

10 me. However I would consider she is a friend.

11 Q. And she's a good friend?

12 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. What do you

13 mean by "good"?

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Let him -- let him play that

15 game, Mr. Sun. That's not your province.

16 MR. SUN: I'm entitled to make comment on

17 your questions. But you may answer the question.

18 Q. Do you know what the word "good" means?

19 A. I know what that means, good, yes.

20 Q. And what does "good" mean?

21 A. But -- again, it's a scale. You know, you

22 get a scale 1 to 10. I like to know which scale you're

23 talking about, 10 or 1. When you say "good friend," a

24 Scale 1 can be good friend.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record reflect this how

149

1 you run the clock out in a deposition. So we'll be

2 moving for appropriate relief.

3 MR. SUN: Do you have a question pending?

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

5 MR. SUN: What is it?

6 Q. What does the word "good" mean to you?

7 A. Hmm?

8 Q. What does the word "good" mean to you?

9 MR. SUN: In the context of the word

10 "friend"?

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

12 MR. SUN: If you can answer the question, you

13 may; if you don't understand it, tell him.

14 A. The definition of "good friend" sometime is

15 very vague. I can tell you example. I work at Los

16 Alamos for twenty years. I know many, many people,

17 many scientists, and I consider them as my good friend,

18 because we saw each other every day, and, you know, we

19 eat together. Good friend. But when I was indicted,

20 most of them turn their back to me, and some of them

21 say bad thing about me. So now I'm lost. I say a good

22 friend, sometime the definition is very vague. Depend

23 on situation. Depend on timing. That's all I can tell

24 you.

25 Q. Did Cecilia Chang ever turn her back on you?

150

1 A. So far, not yet.

2 Q. Did she ever say bad things about you?

3 A. I don't know. Not --

4 Q. So she's a good friend, correct?

5 A. That part, I don't know. So far, I consider

6 that she's a good friend.

7 Q. Okay. Why couldn't you just say that she's a

8 good friend? Why did we have to go through all that?

9 MR. SUN: Objection, you don't have to

10 answer that question. Move on.

11 Q. Are you trying to run the clock out, Dr. Lee?

12 A. No.

13 MR. SUN: You don't have to answer that

14 question.

15 Q. You are aware that Cecilia Chang assisted you

16 with matters related to your case that was brought

17 against you by the Government, are you not?

18 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

19 A. To my best knowledge, I don't know.

20 Q. You have no knowledge of anything she did to

21 try to help you?

22 A. In what time frame? When --

23 Q. Anytime, anytime. Did she ever do anything

24 to try to help you with regard to the Government's

25 investigation of you or prosecution of you over

151

1 allegations of breach of national security regulations?

2 A. I know there are many, many Chinese people

3 has -- what do you call that? -- variety, a parade or

4 something, get together and go to the public to say

5 something about my treatment by the Government. I know

6 that -- protest, yeah, that's the word I'm -- that many

7 Chinese people or maybe -- American people, too. I

8 mean, non-Oriental, non-Chinese people, they do that,

9 too. And I believe Cecilia Chang may be one of them.

10 Q. During the time that you were under

11 investigation and then prosecution by the Government,

12 did you have any conversations with Cecilia Chang?

13 A. Please repeat your question.

14 Q. During the time that you were under

15 investigation and then prosecution by the Government

16 over the alleged breach of national security, did you

17 ever have any conversations with Cecilia Chang?

18 MR. SUN: I object as to form. There could

19 be some difference of opinion, Mr. Klayman, about when

20 Mr. -- Dr. Lee first became under investigation. If

21 you're focusing on when he first learned he was under

22 investigation, that's one time frame. It's my

23 understanding that the Government may have commenced an

24 investigation that predated that time frame. So I

25 think it's important for the record you clarify.

152

1 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I'll ask the question the

2 way I want to ask it.

3 A. Okay. You should specify from, say, 1940 or

4 1980 or 1990 to nineteen what, you know, because that

5 will make me clear. I will answer your question. Just

6 tell me what time period you imply.

7 Q. Well, let's -- let's start with the last

8 three years. Have you had any conversations with

9 Cecilia Chang in the last three years from today?

10 A. I -- I don't remember do I have any

11 conversation with her today. I mean, for last two

12 years, you said?

13 MR. SUN: He said three years.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Three.

15 MR. SUN: From 1998 forward, have you had any

16 conversations with Cecilia Chang?

17 A. There's only one conversation I can remember

18 I have a conversation with her. This is the only one I

19 remember. That must be somewhere towards December of

20 2000. I was -- I was out of jail. My case -- I mean,

21 I'm not in jail. I'm out. I get out in September

22 13th, 2000, yes. And sometime in December 2000, she --

23 I believe she -- she said they going to have a birthday

24 party for me, and she -- she asked me to go there for

25 the birthday party. That's only conversation I ever

153

1 had with her for last two years, to my best memory.

2 Q. Three years.

3 MR. SUN: Three years.

4 Q. The question was three years.

5 A. Three years. You mean, like a 2 --

6 MR. SUN: 1998 forward.

7 A. 1998, 1999, 2000.

8 MR. SUN: And up to the present.

9 A. That's four years. Almost four years.

10 MR. SUN: Whatever. Three years going back

11 from today.

12 A. Okay. Let me ask you, when you say the about

13 two years, you mean --

14 Q. I said three.

15 A. Three, you mean this year? Today is --

16 Q. Today is the 10th of October --

17 A. -- October, yeah.

18 Q. -- 2001, so go back to the 10th of October --

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. -- 1998. From the 10th of October 1998 up to

21 the present, did you have any conversations or

22 communications of any kind with Cecilia Chang?

23 A. To my best memory, that conversation with

24 Cecilia Chang happened sometime in December 2000, and

25 that's probably the only one I had, to my best memory.

154

1 Q. Did you ever have any communications with her

2 through writing or e-mail, or anything like that, for

3 the last three years?

4 A. To my best memory, the answer is no.

5 Q. Is the answer no, or are you saying you don't

6 remember?

7 A. I told you, to my best memory, I don't

8 remember I have any communication in -- what you say?

9 -- e-mail?

10 Q. Any means. Any method of communication.

11 A. Well, I already told you I talk to her during

12 December 2000 because she -- she want -- she invite me

13 to the birthday party. That's the one I remember.

14 Q. Is Cecilia Chang friends with your wife and

15 daughter?

16 A. She -- she's a friend of my wife.

17 Q. And your wife's name is Sylvia, correct?

18 A. Yes, Sylvia. And I don't know whether she's

19 a friend of my daughter. I don't know.

20 Q. Now, your wife did tell you that Cecilia

21 Chang was trying to help you with your defense,

22 correct?

23 MR. SUN: I'm sorry, can you repeat the

24 question? Did you say --

25 Q. Your wife, Sylvia, did tell you, in the last

155

1 three years, that Cecilia Chang was trying to help you

2 with your defense?

3 MR. SUN: Objection, spousal/marital

4 communications. Instruct the client not to answer.

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

6 Q. You are aware that Cecilia Chang had contact

7 with your wife, Sylvia, and -- and other family members

8 to try to help you in your defense, correct?

9 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

10 A. Would you please repeat?

11 Q. You are aware that members of your family had

12 contact with Cecilia Chang to help you with your

13 defense against the Government case against you?

14 MR. SUN: Same objection.

15 A. No.

16 Q. You are aware that Cecilia Chang had contact

17 with your lawyers to help you with your defense in the

18 Government case against you?

19 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

20 A. No.

21 Q. You are aware that Cecilia Chang had an

22 Internet site which she named wenholee.org, correct?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you allow other people to use your name

25 without your permission?

156

1 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

2 Q. Your name is Wen Ho Lee, is it not?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Do you let other -- is it your practice to

5 allow other people to use your name without your

6 permission?

7 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

8 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

9 MR. SUN: If you understand the question,

10 yes, you may.

11 A. If somebody ask me, say, "Wen Ho Lee, I like

12 to use your name for some purpose," I have to discuss

13 with him or her about the permission. But if somebody

14 just go out to put in my name in, you know, any street,

15 I don't know. So -- I don't -- I mean, this guy put my

16 name on the street without letting me know, he can do

17 that or she can do that, but I don't know. And I don't

18 have any objection. I cannot objection because I

19 don't know.

20 Q. But you've never ever allowed anyone to use

21 your name without your permission, have you?

22 A. No, you didn't understand my question.

23 Q. No, my question is you've never ever allowed

24 anyone to use your name without your permission?

25 A. I didn't say that. I say if somebody want to

157

1 use my name to do something else, he or she has to

2 discuss with me first, and I have to agree. I say,

3 "Okay. You go ahead and use." And then he and she can

4 do it. Understand that?

5 Q. Right. And --

6 A. And if he or she put my name in something

7 else without let me know, I have no control. I just

8 have no control.

9 Q. Have you ever asked Cecilia Chang to not use

10 your name in an Internet Web site?

11 A. Say again. I haven't --

12 Q. Have you ever told Cecilia Chang to stop

13 using your name for her Web site?

14 A. That two-part. I want to answer your

15 question. First, I don't know whether she has a Web

16 site or not. I don't know. Second, I -- she never ask

17 me about my name on Web site or whatever, so I don't

18 know. And I don't know whether she has a Web site or

19 not. I don't know.

20 Q. If you were to learn that she was using your

21 name on an Internet Web site to raise money, would you

22 let her do that?

23 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

24 A. The question you ask is never happen between

25 me and the Cecilia Chang, so I don't know how to answer

158

1 your question. It's never happen.

2 Q. Assume for purposes of the question that it

3 happened, that Cecilia Chang has an Internet Web site

4 wenholee.org. Would you allow her to use your name, to

5 raise money, on that Web site?

6 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

7 A. Two part. First, I don't know Cecilia Chang

8 has a Web site called wenholee.org. I don't know about

9 that. The second thing, I don't know the purpose of

10 that wenholee.org. I cannot answer your question.

11 Q. Assume -- assume for purposes of this

12 question that Cecilia Chang does have a Web site, it's

13 called wenholee.org, and that she raises money on that

14 Web site. If you knew that to be true, would you

15 permit her to use your name?

16 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. And vague

17 and ambiguous.

18 A. The question you asking me right now is never

19 happen in my life; therefore, I don't know how to

20 answer your question.

21 Q. So you're saying that you would let her use

22 your name to raise money?

23 A. I didn't say that. I said the question you

24 ask me, whether Cecilia Chang -- she create a Web site,

25 that part I don't know. Whether she create a Web site

159

1 or not, I don't know. And then the second part, what

2 does is Web site -- what's the purpose? To raise money

3 or what? I don't know.

4 Q. All right. I'm going to ask this question as

5 many times as it takes to get an answer. I'm very

6 patient --

7 A. Um-hmm.

8 Q. -- okay, so I'm going to keep asking it.

9 A. Good.

10 Q. And then I'm going to ask the Court to bring

11 you back for another deposition if we don't get an

12 answer soon. If you knew for a fact that Cecilia Chang

13 had a Web site called wenholee.org and she was using it

14 to raise money, would you tell her to stop?

15 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. You have a

16 time frame in mind?

17 Q. Anytime.

18 A. You ask me a question based on something I

19 don't know, based on something never happen in my life;

20 therefore, I don't know how to answer your question.

21 Is that clear?

22 Q. Is it permissible to use your name to raise

23 money without your permission? Is that okay with you?

24 A. I already told you twice, if somebody want to

25 use my name to raise money or what, if he or she

160

1 discuss with me, then I would either give permission or

2 deny permission. However, if he or she just go ahead,

3 create something or do something without letting me

4 know, it's not my control, and therefore I cannot say

5 yes or no.

6 Q. You don't want people to do things unless you

7 give your permission, do you?

8 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

9 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Excuse me, Counselor, I'm

10 getting about -- I'm sorry, I'm getting a thing off

11 your telephone there.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: It'll stop.

13 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Sorry?

14 A. Please repeat.

15 Q. Unless you give your express permission, then

16 it is not okay for someone to use your name and raise

17 money with your name?

18 MR. SUN: Same objection. Answer the

19 question, please.

20 A. Please repeat the question.

21 Q. Unless you give your permission for someone

22 to use your name and use it to raise money, it's not

23 okay with you?

24 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

25 A. Let me answer this way: If somebody use my

161

1 name to raise money -- now, whether I will give him or

2 give her permission, is that your question? Do I give

3 her permission or not give her permission?

4 Q. You know what my question is, don't you, Dr.

5 Lee?

6 A. Not quite.

7 Q. No? Do you want me to say it again? I'll

8 say it again. I'll say it a hundred times more.

9 A. I will listen, yeah.

10 Q. Okay. If I give -- it's not permissible for

11 you to allow someone to use your name to raise money

12 unless you say it's okay --

13 A. That's not true --

14 Q. -- correct?

15 A. Well, let me tell you this: I already told

16 you, if somebody want to use my name to raise money or

17 do something else, he or she has to discuss with me and

18 say, "Wen Ho, I would like to use a name to raise some

19 fund," or something else, "Are you okay with that?"

20 Then I will have the chance to say yes or no with him

21 or she. All right?

22 Now, if somebody just go out on street and

23 bring a can and put down "Wen Ho Lee," you know, "fund

24 raise, would you like to put money in here," and

25 walking on the Third Street here, without letting me

162

1 know, and I have no control, then I don't know whether

2 to say yes or no, because he's doing something I don't

3 know. Do you understand that?

4 Q. Yeah. And my next question is -- new

5 question --

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. -- that's not okay with you, is it? It's not

8 okay that someone uses your name when you don't know

9 about it to raise money?

10 A. Depend on the purpose, if I know. If I know

11 this guy walking on the Third Street to collect money,

12 without letting me know -- and suppose I walk on the

13 Third Street and I say, "Gee, what this guy doing using

14 my name to raise fund?" I will go ask him, say, "Hey,

15 what are you doing with this, my name?"

16 And then he may -- or she may explain to me

17 say, "Oh, I'm going to use this money for 911

18 disaster." Then I say, "Okay. That's good thing,"

19 but --

20 Q. You are aware -- you are aware that Cecilia

21 Chang used your name to raise money, are you not?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Now, let's assume that she did that.

24 A. But --

25 Q. I'm telling you. I'm the person that's

163

1 telling you what happened with the use of your name.

2 Your name was used to raise money, is that okay with

3 you --

4 MR. SUN: Is that okay for --

5 Q. -- by Cecilia Chang.

6 MR. SUN: He's asking you to assume that Ms.

7 Chang raised money in your name. And the question is,

8 assuming that is the case, would that be acceptable to

9 you or okay to you.

10 A. I will answer your question, but I want to

11 make you understand that, first, I don't know Cecilia

12 Chang has used my name to raise money. Yes or no, I

13 don't know. Okay? That part. But today, suppose I

14 know somebody want to use my name to raise the money to

15 help me, my case, I would agree. I would be -- say

16 "Thank you." I will tell him, "Thank you," yes.

17 Q. That's okay. And if Ms. -- Ms. Cecilia Chang

18 wanted to use her Internet site, "wenholee.org," to

19 publish material stating that you were being

20 investigated and prosecuted because you're Chinese,

21 that's okay too?

22 MR. SUN: Objection, argumentative, outside

23 -- objection as to form.

24 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

25 MR. SUN: If you understand the question, you

164

1 can answer it.

2 A. I want to make it very clear, very, very

3 clear, I don't know whether Cecilia Chang has a net --

4 you know, the Web site. I don't know about that. I

5 don't know whether she set up a Web site or not. I

6 don't know. Okay? I don't know. Do you understand?

7 I don't know.

8 Q. I understand.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Now, do you understand that I'm telling you --

11 A. I'm telling you, I don't under- -- I don't

12 know whether she set up a Web site or not. That part,

13 I don't know.

14 Q. Okay. That's fine.

15 A. I was in jail. I don't know.

16 Q. That's your testimony?

17 A. Um-hmm.

18 Q. I'm telling you, assume for purposes of

19 answering the question that Cecilia Chang did have a

20 Web site. She named it "wenholee.org." She used it to

21 raise money for you, and she used it to publish

22 materials saying that you were being singled out for

23 investigation and prosecution because you're Chinese.

24 Would that be okay with you?

25 MR. SUN: Objection as to form,

165

1 argumentative.

2 Do you understand the question?

3 THE WITNESS: Not very well.

4 MR. SUN: All right.

5 Q. Well, during the time that you worked at Los

6 Alamos, were you ever criticized in reviews? You were

7 reviewed from time to time on the basis of your work

8 performance, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was there ever any criticism by your

11 supervisors that you didn't understand English?

12 A. To my best memory, that happen before, yes.

13 Q. And when did that happen?

14 A. I don't remember when. But I barely remember

15 that happen.

16 Q. Who criticized you?

17 A. I don't remember who did, no.

18 Q. Did they say -- did that criticism say that

19 you didn't -- that you had a hard time understanding

20 what people were saying?

21 A. Some people criticize me, my English no good,

22 and sometimes difficult to communicate.

23 Q. Did they say that you didn't understand what

24 they were saying? Did they criticize you for not

25 understanding what they were saying?

166

1 A. I don't remember the detail, no.

2 Q. Okay. I'll show you what I'll ask the court

3 reporter to mark as Exhibit 3.

4 (Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)

5 MR. SUN: Can we take a break in about ten

6 minutes, Mr. Klayman?

7 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. No, no, we're still

8 continuing. We'll keep going.

9 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.

10 MR. MARSHALL: Do you still have your

11 microphone on?

12 THE WITNESS: I thought we were going to take

13 a break.

14 MR. MARSHALL: No, in ten minutes.

15 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

16 Q. Showing you a document which has been marked

17 as Exhibit 3. It contains a letter to Cecilia Chang

18 from your attorney Mark Holscher of O'Melveny & Myers,

19 "Re: Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund." Attached is a

20 statement, "Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund, Establishment

21 and Purposes of Defense Fund," "Dr. Lee's Defense

22 Team," "Procedures (regarding) Receipt/Disbursement of

23 Donated Funds and Priorities Regarding Allocation Of

24 Disbursements, and "Status of Fund Raising." Have you

25 ever seen this document before?

167

1 A. Do you know when this document written? The

2 date?

3 MR. SUN: Well, there is something

4 handwritten at the top there.

5 A. July 28. Repeat your question.

6 Q. Have you ever seen this document before that

7 I just handed to you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. It's stamped Bates Numbers 1269 through, and

10 including, 1272.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Read the first page of this document. Can

13 you see this? It says, "Attached is the summary

14 description of the Defense Fund for the Web site," Wen

15 Ho Lee Defense Fund. "This description needs to be

16 placed on the site. It has been authorized by the

17 family, Brian Sun, and others. I believe this summary

18 explains the current situation and our need for funds.

19 In addition, to retain your independent status as a

20 member of the Fund Review Committee, you should take

21 your Northern California P.O. Box off the Web site and

22 take yourself out of the loop of directly handling

23 funds so that no questions can be raised regarding your

24 involvement in the handling of funds on a going forward

25 basis. All funds should go directly to the P.O. Box of

168

1 the authorized accountants in Santa Monica. Thank you

2 for all your work on behalf of Dr. Lee. It is

3 critical, however, that you implement these changes and

4 honor the family's wishes. Thanks for your help and

5 please call me if you have any questions. Very truly

6 yours, Mark Holscher of O'Melveny & Myers." Copies to

7 Mr. Cline, Brian Sun, Alberta Lee, and Cecilia Lee.

8 A. No, Chung Lee.

9 Q. Chung Lee, excuse me.

10 A. My son.

11 Q. Okay. Now, this refreshes your recollection,

12 does it not, that your family authorized this Web site

13 to raise money for you, this Web site of Cecilia Chang,

14 called "wenholee.org"?

15 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

16 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

17 MR. SUN: Yes, if you understand the

18 question.

19 A. This is the first time I have seen this

20 letter in my life, and it also the first time I know my

21 family, Brian Sun and other, has authorized the Web

22 site. This is the first time I know.

23 Q. No one in your family ever discussed that

24 with you before?

25 A. No.

169

1 Q. Brian Sun never discussed that with you

2 before?

3 MR. SUN: Objection. To the extent that the

4 answer calls for attorney/client communications, I'm

5 going to instruct you not to answer.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

7 Q. Now, you are a member of your family, are you

8 not? You, Wen Ho Lee, are a member of the Lee family,

9 are you not?

10 A. I have wife and two children, and four of us

11 is, I consider as a family member, yes.

12 Q. So consequently, you authorized this Web

13 site, wenholee.org?

14 A. That's wrong.

15 MR. SUN: Objection, misstates the evidence.

16 Q. Are you saying that your family did not have

17 your authorization?

18 A. I didn't say that.

19 Q. So they did -- your family did have your

20 authorization.

21 MR. SUN: Objection --

22 A. I didn't say that either.

23 MR. SUN: -- misstates the evidence.

24 Q. Well, you answer the question. Did your

25 family have authorization to tell Ms. Chang to operate

170

1 a Web site, "wenholee.org," and use it to raise money

2 and to publish materials about your defense?

3 MR. SUN: Authorization from whom?

4 Q. From you.

5 MR. SUN: He's already answered that

6 question.

7 Q. Answer the question.

8 A. The answer is no. I did not authorize that.

9 Q. So your family did that without authorization?

10 MR. SUN: Without authorization from him?

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Okay. Now, you are aware of Mr. Trulock's

14 allegations that he was defamed by materials placed on

15 that Web site by Ms. Chang?

16 A. Please repeat your question.

17 Q. You are aware of Mr. Trulock's allegations in

18 this lawsuit that he was defamed by materials that were

19 placed on that Web site that called him a racist and

20 said that he had singled you out because you were

21 Chinese.

22 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

23 Q. You're aware of those -- you're aware of the

24 allegations of this lawsuit?

25 A. I -- I -- I know Mr. Trulock accused me

171

1 because he think I put something on the wenholee.org

2 without any content of that Web site, am I right? I

3 don't understand.

4 Q. What do you understand Mr. Trulock is

5 accusing you of?

6 A. Well, he accuse me -- to my understanding, he

7 accuse me something contending that wenholee.

8 organization. Something he's not happy, and so he

9 accused me, and he accuse me I set up the wenholee.org

10 or I told somebody to set up. That's to my best

11 understanding. Am I right? I -- I don't remember. I

12 seen the -- the accusation before, but I cannot

13 remember every line.

14 Q. And you're aware that Mr. Trulock is saying

15 that what was published on that Web site, saying that

16 he singled you out for an investigation because you

17 were Chinese and as a racist, that that defamed his

18 reputation, correct? You're aware of that?

19 A. I remember something -- something like what

20 you said, but I don't know exactly the detail. I can't

21 remember.

22 Q. And it's your position that you didn't

23 authorize this, correct? You did not authorize the

24 publication of materials to defame Mr. Trulock?

25 A. That's correct.

172

1 Q. Okay. This letter says that your family

2 authorized that, correct?

3 MR. SUN: They -- that's not what that letter

4 says. Objection as to form.

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let him -- let him testify.

6 A. My understanding from the letter is my family

7 authorized the Web site, but whatever put into the Web

8 site, my family did not authorize that. That's my

9 understanding from this.

10 Q. Okay. But since you don't really -- since

11 you claim not to know anything about this, then how do

12 you know that your family did not authorize publishing

13 materials that allegedly defame Mr. Trulock?

14 A. I didn't say that. I said based on this

15 letter, my judgment, my interpretation based on this

16 letter, it says my family authorize the Web site, but

17 this letter did not say my family authorize the content

18 of the article or anything to do with Trulock. It's

19 been authorized by my family to put into the Web site.

20 It did not say that in this letter.

21 MR. SUN: Okay. Can we take a break here

22 pretty soon?

23 MR. KLAYMAN: I have a few more questions,

24 and then we'll take a break. You're not refuting --

25 you have no information to refute that your family did

173

1 authorize this Web site run by Cecilia Chang,

2 wenholee.org?

3 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

4 A. What do you mean, "refute"?

5 Q. You're not claiming that your family did not

6 have authorization to have Ms. Chang have this Web

7 site, wenholee.org?

8 MR. SUN: From whom? Authorization from

9 whom?

10 A. You mean authorize from my family member?

11 Like my daughter? My son?

12 Q. The letter says that the Web site has been

13 authorized by the family, Brian Sun, and others,

14 correct?

15 A. That's what this said in this letter.

16 Q. Right. Now, you have no -- you have no facts

17 to refute that, do you?

18 A. You mean -- I don't have any --

19 Q. Do you have any information that this is

20 wrong, what's said here in this letter?

21 A. I don't have any information to say this is

22 wrong or this is right other than this letter here.

23 That's why.

24 Q. Now, by saying that you didn't authorize the

25 Web site --

174

1 A. I did not authorize it --

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. -- the Web site.

4 Q. That's your testimony. Given the information

5 in this letter that your family authorized the Web

6 site, is it your position that Notra Trulock should be

7 suing your family for defamation and not you?

8 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

9 Q. Is that your position, that we sued the wrong

10 party? We should be suing your wife and your daughter

11 and other members of your family?

12 A. I didn't say that. I say based on this

13 letter, the Web site was set up with some -- authorize

14 by the family, which mean either my daughter or my son

15 or my wife. I don't know. I don't know.

16 Q. Well, you're -- you're not willing to say

17 that you authorized it. This letter says that it was

18 authorized by your family, Brian Sun, and others. So

19 based on that, is it your position that the Plaintiff

20 Notra Trulock has sued the wrong individual; that Notra

21 Trulock should be suing your family, Brian Sun, and

22 others, but not you?

23 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

24 Q. Is that your position?

25 A. My position is I did not authorize this Web

175

1 site, and I don't know who authorize the Web site,

2 other than the information on this piece paper. But

3 this piece paper may be wrong -- may be right, maybe

4 wrong, I don't know.

5 Q. Based on your testimony, are you willing to

6 assume responsibility for Plaintiff having to amend his

7 Complaint to sue your family, Mr. Sun, and others?

8 MR. SUN: I'm going to object. I'm going to

9 direct him not to answer. That's not relevant to this

10 litigation.

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

12 MR. SUN: Certify it.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you mocking me again, Mr.

14 Sun?

15 MR. SUN: No, not at all.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, I wish they had a picture

17 of your face.

18 MR. SUN: Can we take a break soon, Mr.

19 Klayman?

20 MR. KLAYMAN: I have a few more questions,

21 then we'll take a break.

22 MR. SUN: Are you tired, Dr. Lee?

23 THE WITNESS: I'm really tire, yes.

24 MR. SUN: Let's take a break.

25 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the

176

1 record. The time is 2:32, Videotape 2.

2 (Recess taken.)

3 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. We're back on

4 the record, beginning with Tape 3. The time is 2:53.

5 Q. Later on in this letter, it says -- this is

6 the letter from your lawyer Mark Holscher. It's

7 written to Cecilia Chang. "Thank you for all of your

8 work on behalf of Dr. Lee." The work of Cecilia Chang

9 was on your behalf, was it not, Dr. Lee?

10 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

11 A. Say your question again. I seen that, but

12 what -- what is your question?

13 Q. The Web site, wenholee.org, as written by

14 your lawyer, was on your behalf?

15 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

16 A. That's what's said in the letter.

17 Q. Yeah. And you have no information to say

18 that Mr. Holscher wasn't telling the truth when he

19 wrote that to Ms. Chang, do you?

20 A. Do I have any information that --

21 Q. That Mr. Holscher isn't telling the truth

22 when he wrote that?

23 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

24 A. This is the first time I seen this letter, so

25 I don't know when Mr. Holscher wrote this one. You say

177

1 true or not true?

2 Q. You have no information to claim that what

3 Mr. Holscher wrote to Cecilia Chang is untrue? "Thank

4 you for all of your work on behalf of Dr. Lee"?

5 A. I don't know whether it's true or not. I

6 don't know.

7 Q. You have no information to say it's not true,

8 though, do you?

9 A. I don't have any information to say it's not

10 true.

11 Q. Okay. And Mark Holscher was your lawyer,

12 correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And is still your lawyer, correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. You haven't fired him, have you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And you haven't told him not to be in

19 communication with Cecilia Chang, correct?

20 MR. SUN: Objection. Any communications

21 between Dr. Lee and Mr. Holscher are privileged, and

22 therefore I instruct him not to answer.

23 Q. Have you told Mr. Holscher to tell Ms. Chang

24 that she was unauthorized to maintain this Web site

25 "wenholee.org," on your behalf?

178

1 MR. SUN: Same instruction --

2 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

3 MR. SUN: -- instruct him not to answer.

4 Q. Turn to the second page of this document,

5 "Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund," "Establishment and

6 Purposes of the Defense Fund." It says, "In September,

7 1999, in the face of extremely distorted and

8 prejudicial press coverage and a massive government

9 investigation singling Dr. Lee out for suspected

10 espionage on behalf of the People's Republic of China,

11 the family and friends of Dr. Lee established a defense

12 fund to assist him in refuting and defeating these

13 unsubstantiated specious allegations." Do you see

14 that?

15 A. Yes, I see it.

16 Q. Now, where it says that you were singled out

17 for suspected espionage, that, in fact, was your

18 position, that you were being singled out by the

19 Government, correct?

20 MR. SUN: As to what time frame?

21 MR. KLAYMAN: As to any time frame.

22 Q. That's your position, isn't it, that you were

23 singled out for suspected espionage?

24 A. Well, what is your question?

25 Q. What is written here in this document, which

179

1 is being sent to Cecilia Chang, that you're being

2 singled out for suspected espionage by the Government,

3 that is your, Dr. Wen Ho Lee's, position as well, is it

4 not?

5 A. Now, when you say "my position," do you mean

6 I agree with this or I disagree with this?

7 Q. Yes, do you agree with this?

8 A. I didn't -- I didn't agree with this or

9 disagree, because when they wrote this, I -- I'm in

10 jail. I don't know anything about this. This is the

11 first time I seen this letter today. Today is the

12 first time I have seen this letter. And, in fact, I'm

13 only read four line. I did not read to the bottomline

14 yet.

15 Q. Okay. Now, this statement that you were

16 being singled out, that is the same thing that Notra

17 Trulock, my client, is suing about, for being the

18 subject of publications that you were being singled

19 out, correct?

20 A. I don't know. I cannot make a judgment on

21 your question because I -- I don't know what is

22 singling out here mean because I didn't write this.

23 Q. This -- this statement of the legal defense

24 fund was actually published on the Web site

25 wenholee.org, correct?

180

1 A. I don't know. I -- I don't know.

2 Q. Now, you've looked at that Web site, haven't

3 you, wenholee.org?

4 A. I look at the Web site only recently, after I

5 was released in September the 13. To the end of 2000,

6 or maybe beginning of this year, my daughter bring a

7 laptop. I don't have any computer until she bring a

8 laptop. I did open it and look at sometime --

9 sometime, but I was probably most likely after, you

10 know, the beginning of this year.

11 Q. And you -- you read the Web site, correct?

12 A. Sometime I look at. Doesn't necessarily read

13 it. I look at to see what's going on, that's all.

14 Because I notice most of the article in the Web site

15 are copied from either New York Time or L.A. Time or

16 some bigger newspaper. To my best judgment, to my best

17 knowledge, the article, it's all copy from somewhere

18 else.

19 Q. When you looked at the Web site, you did see

20 this Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund statement published on

21 the Web site, did you not?

22 A. Which one?

23 Q. You saw what I just read you.

24 A. Which one?

25 Q. It's Number 1270. You saw this on the --

181

1 A. This?

2 Q. -- on the Web site.

3 A. This one?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I repeat, today is the first time I ever seen

6 any words, any sentence on this piece paper. Today is

7 the first time I have seen something like this. I have

8 never seen this before in my life, anywhere.

9 Q. But you just stated that you have looked at

10 the wenholee.org Web site, correct?

11 A. I look it, open it, but I did not see this

12 article. I did not see this article.

13 Q. Okay. What articles did you see when you

14 opened it?

15 A. Usually I don't look -- read article. I told

16 you, I look at the title, it would say, oh, "FBI say

17 something," blah-blah-blah, and most of the article are

18 copy from New York Time, L.A. Time, Washington Post,

19 or some other big newspaper. And usually I already

20 seen those articles in the newspaper already. So it's

21 -- it's not new to me. It's old.

22 Q. You're pretty good with computers, aren't you?

23 A. In what sense?

24 Q. You know how computers operate, you know how

25 to operate them.

182

1 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

2 Q. Correct?

3 A. You have to give me your definition? What do

4 you mean "operate"?

5 Q. You know -- you know how use to a computer

6 to -- to call up an Internet site, correct?

7 A. That part I know, yes.

8 Q. And that's much less complicated than

9 transferring classified documents from a restricted

10 site to an unrestricted site, which you've also done,

11 correct?

12 MR. SUN: Objection as to form and compound.

13 Q. You have -- you have transferred classified

14 documents from a restricted site to a unrestricted

15 site, correct?

16 MR. SUN: I'm going to instruct the witness

17 not to answer. I don't think this question is relevant

18 to this litigation.

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, certify it.

20 Q. In fact, you were prosecuted and convicted

21 for that, weren't you?

22 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

23 Q. In fact, you carry a felony conviction, do

24 you not?

25 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

183

1 Q. So using an Internet site is not difficult

2 for you, is it?

3 A. I know how to use the Internet. I know how

4 to open it, yes.

5 Q. How many times have you looked at the

6 wenholee.org Web site?

7 A. I don't remember how many time.

8 Q. What computer did you use to open up that Web

9 site?

10 A. I have a laptop very similar to this

11 one, but I -- I know it's a Sony, S-O-N-Y. That's all

12 I know.

13 Q. And how long have you had it?

14 A. To my best memory, the laptop was brought to

15 my house by my daughter probably around sometime toward

16 the end of the last year, to my best memory. I may be

17 wrong.

18 Q. You're aware that technology exists for us to

19 determine, if the Court orders it, how many times

20 you've opened up that Web site, wenholee.org?

21 A. What is your question?

22 Q. You are aware that there is technology that

23 we can find out how many times you've looked at the

24 wenholee.org Web site off of your laptop?

25 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

184

1 A. To my best knowledge, it is possible, but I

2 don't know for sure.

3 Q. Do you want to amend your answer, now that

4 you know that we can actually find out how many times

5 you've looked at it?

6 A. What is your question?

7 Q. How many times have you opened up the

8 wenholee.org Web site?

9 A. I told you, I don't remember.

10 Q. More than once, correct?

11 A. Yes, more than once.

12 Q. More than five times, correct?

13 A. Possible.

14 Q. Okay. In fact, you look at that Web site

15 frequently, correct?

16 A. I don't know. What do you mean "frequently"?

17 Q. Several times a week.

18 MR. SUN: Do you have a time frame on this,

19 Mr. Klayman?

20 Q. Please answer the question.

21 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

22 A. It's possible, but I don't remember. I don't

23 know for sure.

24 Q. Okay. So you've read substantial portions of

25 that Web site?

185

1 A. I already told you, I open it. Usually I

2 don't look at -- I don't read the article. I just look

3 at the title. That's all.

4 Q. You only open the Web site to look at titles?

5 You don't read anything?

6 A. Well, I didn't say that. I said most of the

7 time, I open it and read the title. Very seldom I will

8 read the article. Very, very seldom.

9 Q. What articles have you read?

10 A. I don't remember which article I read.

11 Q. But they're all about you, right?

12 A. I assume so, but I don't know for sure.

13 Q. You've seen affidavits by Robert Vrooman and

14 Charles Washington on the wenholee.org Web site, have

15 you not?

16 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

17 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

18 MR. SUN: Yeah, if you -- yes, if you can

19 understand the question, you can answer it.

20 A. Repeat your question.

21 Q. You've seen affidavits of Robert Vrooman and

22 Charles Washington on the wenholee.org?

23 A. The answer is no.

24 Q. I'll show you what I'll ask the court

25 reporter to mark as Exhibit 4. It's a Declaration of

186

1 Robert Vrooman.

2 MR. SUN: Thank you.

3 (Exhibit 4 marked for identification.)

4 Q. Have you seen that document before?

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Strike that.

6 Q. You've seen that on the Web site,

7 wenholee.org, have you not?

8 MR. SUN: Objection, asked and answered.

9 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

10 MR. SUN: Yeah, you can answer the question.

11 A. Repeat your question, please.

12 Q. You seen this declaration of Robert Vrooman

13 on the Web site wenholee.org, correct?

14 A. The answer is no.

15 Q. I'll show what I'll ask the court reporter to

16 mark as Declaration of Charles E. Washington, Exhibit 5.

17 (Exhibit 5 marked for identification.)

18 Q. You've seen this declaration on the Web site,

19 wenholee.org?

20 A. The answer is no.

21 Q. Having looked at the Web site wenholee.org

22 frequently, have you ever told Cecilia Chang to no

23 longer have a Web site in your name?

24 A. The answer is no.

25 Q. Have you ever told her to take anything down

187

1 from the Web site, wenholee.org? To remove it?

2 A. The answer is no.

3 Q. Have you ever told her to change anything on

4 that Web site?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you ever told her that she didn't have

7 authorization to create that Web site --

8 A. No.

9 Q. -- from you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. In fact, you accept responsibility for that

12 Web site, do you not?

13 MR. SUN: Objection, asked and answered,

14 argumentative.

15 A. What is your question?

16 Q. The Web site, wenholee.org, you accept that

17 as your Web site, do you not?

18 THE WITNESS: Should I answer?

19 MR. SUN: Ask and answered. But you can

20 answer it again, if you want. Do you understand the

21 question?

22 THE WITNESS: No, not quite.

23 A. Say again, please.

24 Q. The Web site, wenholee.org, you accept that

25 as your Web site, do you not?

188

1 A. Do I accept that as my Web site?

2 Q. That it was put up there on your behalf? It

3 was created on your behalf?

4 MR. SUN: That's a different question.

5 Q. You admit that the wenholee.org Web site was

6 created on your behalf?

7 MR. SUN: Objection, asked and answered.

8 THE WITNESS: Do I answer?

9 MR. SUN: Yeah, you can answer it again.

10 A. To my best judgment, the Web site may be

11 benefit to me, but I don't know for sure.

12 Q. I asked whether the Web site was created on

13 your behalf.

14 MR. SUN: Objection, asked and answered.

15 Q. Yes or no. Yes or no.

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Is there anything about the wenholee.org Web

18 site that you don't like?

19 A. I don't know enough to make a judgment to

20 answer your question; therefore, I cannot answer your

21 question.

22 Q. Turning back to Exhibit 3, it says, it's at

23 the bottom of page 1270 --

24 MR. SUN: Exhibit 3 is --

25 MR. MARSHALL: That one.

189

1 A. This one.

2 MR. SUN: Is that the --

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Page 1270.

4 MR. MARSHALL: That's Exhibit 3.

5 MR. SUN: Exhibit 3 being the Holscher

6 letter?

7 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.

8 Q. It says, under the section "Dr. Lee's Defense

9 Team," "Dr. Lee has engaged the assistance of four law

10 firms to assist him in responding to the Government's

11 persecution of him and his family."

12 A. Excuse me, where are you reading? Oh, the

13 second page. And where?

14 Q. Do you see where it says, "Dr. Lee has

15 engaged the assistance of four law firms to assist him

16 in responding to the Government's persecution of him

17 and his family."

18 A. I read that.

19 Q. Yes. And you agree with that statement, do

20 you not?

21 A. I know Mark Holscher is one law firm -- law

22 firm, John Cline is different, and I don't know who the

23 other two here.

24 Q. Brian Sun's law firm is the third, correct?

25 A. I don't know, because it says the Government

190

1 prosecution. To my best knowledge, this would be refer

2 to the criminal charge, right, the Government

3 prosecution? And to my best knowledge, I'm not sure

4 if Brian Sun involve or not. I don't know.

5 Q. You're aware that in your civil case, you

6 have Brian Sun's law firm, O'Neill, Lysaght & Sun, and

7 Sidley & Austin, correct? I turn your attention to

8 page 1271, middle of the page.

9 A. This part I -- yes, I know this.

10 Q. So this -- this statement concerns not just

11 the criminal matter, but your civil suit against the

12 Government for alleged violations of your privacy

13 rights, correct?

14 A. To me, this statement here means both the

15 Government prosecution and the lawsuit of the privacy

16 act. Well, yeah, that, to me, that looks like that's

17 what that mean here.

18 Q. Okay. So you have four law firms, correct?

19 A. This is not quite right. If you read this

20 first sentence, it said that "Dr. Lee has engaged the

21 assistance of four law firms to assist him in

22 responding to the Government prosecution (sic)."

23 Q. It says persecution.

24 MR. SUN: Persecution.

25 A. Oh, persecution.

191

1 Q. Do you know what "persecution" is?

2 A. I don't quite understand what that mean.

3 Q. You don't know what the word "persecute"

4 means?

5 A. Nuh-uh.

6 Q. It means when you're being singled out for

7 special treatment, negative treatment.

8 A. I see.

9 Q. Do you understand that?

10 A. (Witness nods head.)

11 Q. You agree with that, correct?

12 A. I -- I don't know that's true or not, because

13 I don't know why -- why the Government investigate on

14 me, I don't know. I don't know the reason.

15 Q. Do you know a Helen Zia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who is Helen Zia?

18 A. She's a writer, and she wrote a book about my

19 story.

20 Q. When did you first meet Helen Zia?

21 A. To my best recollection, to my best memory,

22 I -- I believe I met her sometime during the winter of

23 last year. I would say, probably like December 2000.

24 Q. Who introduced you?

25 A. I don't remember who introduced me -- I mean,

192

1 introduce her to me. I don't remember who introduce.

2 Q. How did you come to meet her?

3 A. One of the publisher, I guess, talk to her,

4 of who talk to who to write a book about me, and she --

5 she was pick. I mean, somebody pick her to -- to write

6 a book about me, and -- and then she come to my house

7 during the winter.

8 Q.