89
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
EASTERN DISTRICT OF
VIRGINIA
2
3
NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )
)
4 Plaintiff,
)
)
5
v.
) Case No. 00-1527-A
)
6
WEN HO LEE, )
)
7 Defendant.
)
______________________________)
8 )
NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )
9
)
Plaintiff, )
10 )
)
11
v.
) Case No. 00-1627-A
)
12
CHARLES E. WASHINGTON, et al.,)
)
13 Defendants.
)
14 VOLUME II
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
SYLVIA LEE
15 Suite 1500E
300 Central,
Southwest
16 Albuquerque, New Mexico
October 12,
2001
17 1:47 p.m.
18 PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL
PROCEDURE, this deposition was:
19
TAKEN BY: LARRY KLAYMAN
20 ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF
21
REPORTED BY: Kendra D.
Tellez, NM CCR #205
22 P D & O Reporting, Inc.
Suite 1500E
23 300 Central, Southwest
Albuquerque, New
Mexico 87102
24
25
90
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
For the Plaintiff:
3 JUDICIAL WATCH, INC.
Attorneys at Law
4 Suite 725
501 School Street, Southwest
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
By: Larry Klayman
6 Thomas J. Fitton
John L. Martin
7
8
For the Defendant Lee:
9 O'NEILL, LYSAGHT & SUN, LLP
Attorneys at Law
10 Suite 700
100 Wilshire Boulevard
11 Santa Monica, California 90401
By: Mr. Brian A. Sun
12
For the Defendant Vrooman:
13
LAW OFFICE OF GARY HOWARD
SIMPSON
14 Attorneys at law
9505 Kingsley Avenue,
15 Bethesda, Maryland 20814
By: Ms. Alane
Tempchine
16
Also Present: Will Moir (Videographer)
17
Mr. Anthony J.
Coppolino
18 (United States Attorney)
19 Robert S. Sinton
Ms. Natalia Leons
20 Mike Lowe
(Federal Bureau of
Investigation)
21
James E. Green
22 (DOE officer)
23
24
25
91
1 INDEX
2
SYLVIA LEE
Cont'd by Mr. Klayman 95
3
SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 230
4
CERTIFICATE PAGE 231
5
EXHIBITS
6
2. December 13, 1989 Memorandum
from Vrooman to
Distribution 102
7
3. August 13, 2001, cover letter with Chapters 6
8 and 7 of Review Team 130
9
4. January 4, 2000, cover
letter with unclassified
version of March 7, 1999,
interview 152
10
5. Subpoena 175
11
6. July 28, 2000, letter to Chang from Holscher 202
12
7. March 21, 2000, letter to Chang from Sun 211
13
8. December 10, 1999, Press Release 214
14
9. Los Alamos Monitor Vrooman article 219
15
10. September 19, 1999,
"For Immediate Release" 220
16
11. Declaration of Robert Vrooman 221
17
12. "Wen Ho Lee Information Packet" 226
18
13. "Memorandum in support of Motion for Discovery
19 of Materials related to Selective Prosecution
20 CERTIFIED QUESTIONS
21 Certified Question 116 17
Certified Question 120 11
22 Certified Question 152 21
Certified Question 177 2
23 Certified area 177
19
Certified Question 183 22
24
25
92
1 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:
Thank you. We're back on
2
the record, beginning with videotape 2.
The time is
3
1:47.
4 MR. KLAYMAN:
Okay. There's some things that
5
Mr. Sun said that would help clarify things that we
6
could put on the record.
7 MR. SUN:
Well, I don't know about what we'll
8
put on the record, but if you were going to -- I think
9
wherever you left off, you were somewhere among
10
questioning about contacts with Mr. Vrooman, and as you
11
pursue that, I think you can clarify things if you
12
choose to pursue that further.
13 MR. KLAYMAN:
Okay. Before we went off the
14
record, we were talking about the potential to take
15
your deposition, the mainstay of your deposition. We
16
may be able to start it for a period before you leave,
17
but I want to finish Ms. Lee first -- Mrs. Lee. And
18
you are under the time constraint that you have to
19 leave by noon
tomorrow, and I posed some dates during
20
the first week of December.
21 MR. SUN:
November, I think.
22 MR. KLAYMAN:
November, excuse me, in Los
23
Angeles. And I just want to get
your agreement that we
24
can resume your deposition then or start it then.
25 MR. SUN:
Well, I can do this: Right now,
it
93
1
looks like I can do it some time this weekend. I just
2
don't know when. At the present
time, that Saturday
3
and Sunday is -- is -- I don't have any previous
4
commitment that I'm aware of.
I'm going to -- I didn't
5
get ahold of my secretary unfortunately, but I will try
6
to endeavor to do that before the end of the day.
7 Secondly, again
-- and as to which day that
8
weekend, I'll have to determine that after checking
9
with my family.
10 MR. KLAYMAN:
Well, you can choose which day.
11
I can be flexible on that.
12 MR. SUN:
Okay. Thank you.
13
MR. KLAYMAN: But let me just put the dates
14
on the record.
15 MR. SUN: I
think it's the 3rd and 4th,
16
somewhere around then.
17 MR. KLAYMAN:
That's correct, December 3rd or
18
4th.
19 MR. SUN:
November.
20 MR. KLAYMAN:
November, I'm sorry.
21 MR. SUN: Fri-
-- Saturday or Sunday.
22 MR. KLAYMAN:
Saturday or Sunday. So we'll
23
count on that. Okay.
24 MR. SUN:
Yeah, at the present time I know of
25
no conflict. I have to check
with my office further,
94
1
but I will keep you apprised.
But, yes, that's a
2
weekend we can focus on.
3 MR. KLAYMAN:
And if there is a conflict,
4
you'll make yourself available at a reasonable time and
5 place before the close
of discovery?
6 MR. SUN:
Yes. I think what I indicated
was
7
I'm in trial in Las Vegas.
There's a possibility I
8
might even suggest that we do the deposition in Las
9 Vegas if for some
reason my trial commitments require
10
me to stay in Las Vegas that weekend, but I will work
11
with you to try to give you an appropriate time frame.
12
Assuming there's some time left on my deposition that
13
you're entitled to, then I'll try to work with you on
14
it.
15 MR. KLAYMAN:
All right. Well, there will
16
be, because we need to go through Ms. Lee, and we're
17 making no --
excruciating slow process here.
18 MR. SUN: I
agree with that.
19 MR. KLAYMAN:
Progress, not process.
20 MR. SUN:
Okay. Why don't we proceed.
21 MR.
KLAYMAN: We can blame the Government
for
22
that one.
23 MR. COPPOLINO:
It wouldn't be the first time
24
that you blamed us for something.
25 MR. KLAYMAN:
No, we have to just blame you.
95
1
We're in business to blame you.
Just a joke.
2 MR. COPPOLINO:
I understand.
3 MR. SUN:
There are a few things that Mr.
4
Klayman and I can agree on from time to time. Let's
5
proceed.
6 Q. (By Mr.
Klayman) Ms. Lee, we were talking
7
about your contacts with the People's Republic of
8
China, and we were talking about your trip. Was it in
9
1986? Correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. SUN: Is
there -- is there --
12 Q. All
right. Now, at that point, the
13
Government's representatives wanted to take a break,
14
because they wanted to, I think, consult on some other
15
issues. Were there other issues
that you were
16
consulting on?
17 MR. COPPOLINO: I don't -- I don't recall.
18
There was no other issue we consulted on than the issue
19
we've already alerted you to the subject matter --
20 MR. KLAYMAN:
Okay.
21 MR. COPPOLINO:
-- that we described to you
22
is my recollection.
23 MR. SUN:
Right.
24 Q. Okay. We were talking about meetings that
25
you had with Robert Vrooman and Mr. Sullivan. Do you
96
1
remember that?
2 A. (Witness nods
head.)
3 Q. Harold
Sullivan?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I asked
you to explain to me what went on
6
during those meetings. And was
there a meeting before
7
your trip in 1986? Is that when
that meeting occurred?
8 A. Yeah, there's
no meeting. I mean, Bob
9
Vrooman only organize by a conference for everyone to
10
go to the meeting to give us briefing about be careful
11
and just be sensitive about -- don't -- be careful not
12
to talk about any classify information, and Bob Vrooman
13
arrange many people from Washington, D.C., some CIA,
14
some is FBI to talk with the -- the auditorium, you
15
know, give us -- show us a slide.
That's all.
16 Q. Right. But then you had a specific meeting
17
with Vrooman and Sullivan, correct?
You had a --
18 A. They -- later
he came -- Bob Vrooman came to
19
me and told me -- I think he told many people -- many
20
Chinese people in working at the lab, that laboratory
21
has appoint Judge Kwei. Judge
Kwei is the only one
22
qualify to deal with Government outside laboratory.
23 MR. SUN: Kwei
is K-W-E-I.
24 A. K-W-E-I. So that that -- that --
25 Q. What do you
mean --
97
1 A. That's what he
mean. Then I think -- I think
2
he mean that Judge Kwei is our leader.
Judge Kwei is
3
our leader. He was represent all
the Chinese people
4
working at the laboratory in -- and so I think -- I
5
think that's what he mean.
6 Q. He was the
leader of --
7 A. He just -- you
know, Bob Vrooman came to me
8
briefly. That -- that's all.
9 Q. Kwei was to do
what with regard to Chinese
10
people from Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratories?
11 A. He's a liaison. Liaison between Government
12
and the Los Alamos Laboratory.
Judge Kwei.
13 Q. Just for
Chinese people?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why did
Chinese people need their own liaison?
16 A. I think at
that time, some visiting Chinese
17
people from People's Repub- -- People's Republic of
18
China doing research, and some scientists from China
19
to -- you know, to visiting Los Alamos, because we have
20
many field is unclassified.
21 Q. Kwei was
assigned --
22 A. Assigned by
the laboratory.
23 Q. -- to the
laboratory?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And where did
Kwei come from? Did he come
98
1
from Los Alamos or --
2 A. Los Alamos.
3 Q. -- or from another
government agency?
4 A. Los Alamos.
5 Q. He came from
the Energy Department?
6 A. He work in the
Los Alamos many, many years.
7 Q. And he's
Chinese?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Chinese
descent?
10 A. Um-hmm. Maybe his English is better.
11 Q. Was he
assigned because there was a concern
12
that with Chinese scientists coming over, that
13 classified --
14 A. Maybe.
15 Q. -- material
might get leaked accidentally?
16 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form.
17 A. Yeah, I don't
know. I don't -- I don't know
18 what happened.
19 Q. So he was
assigned to keep -- keep an eye on
20
the other Chinese?
21 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form.
22 A. I -- I didn't
know.
23 Q. Keep track of
Chinese workers for LANL --
24 A. I didn't
know. I didn't know anything?
25 MR. SUN: Same
objection.
99
1 Q. You didn't
know why he was assigned.
2 MR. SUN:
Asked and answered.
3 Q. You just know
-- you didn't know why he was
4
assigned? You have to answer
verbally.
5 A. No, I didn't know.
6 Q. You just knew
that he was assigned with
7
regard to liaising with your group of Chinese workers
8
at Los Alamos when Chinese delegations arrive --
9
arrived from People's Republic of China?
10 A. I didn't
know. I didn't --
11 Q. Did you find
it -- did you find it strange
12
that Mr. Kwei was assigned to work with the Chinese
13
employees of Los Alamos when Chinese scientists came
14
over to visit?
15 A. I think --
16 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form. Go ahead.
17 A. I think it's
more convenient for the
18
laboratory to function. He -- he
-- he's very, very
19
qualified. He got Ph.D. from
Harvard or -- I think.
20 Q. What's he
qualified at?
21 A. He has good
science background.
22 Q. But -- but his
role was just to interact with
23
the other Chinese and the laboratory, the Los Alamos
24
laboratory, when Chinese delegations came over from the
25
PRC?
100
1 A. Which I -- I
-- I didn't know.
2 Q. Is that what
his role was?
3 A. I didn't
know. I just -- I just know his
4
title is.
5 Q. Did you feel
like he was keeping track of you
6
and the other Chinese at Los Alamos?
7 A. No, I -- I
don't feel this way.
8 Q. Did you feel
that he was a spy for --
9 A. No.
10 Q. -- the U.S.
Government?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. Then what was
he doing being involved?
13 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form.
14 A. I -- I didn't
know. I'm a very low-level
15
employee, you know. I didn't
know anything happening
16
on high level --
17 Q. Did you ever
think --
18 A. -- you know,
in the lab.
19 Q. Did you ever
think that maybe he worked for
20
the FBI?
21 A. I -- I didn't
know.
22 Q. Did you ever
think that? Did that come into
23
your mind?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. Did anyone
else express that?
101
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did anyone
express that maybe he worked for
3
some other Government agency?
4 A. No.
5 Q. But you later
had a meeting with Mr. Vrooman
6
about your travels to -- to China, correct?
7 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form.
8 A. This, I cannot
answer.
9 Q. There are
parts of it that you can answer.
10 A. I -- I didn't
see Vrooman. I didn't meet
11
Vrooman.
12 Q. You testified
this morning that you met with
13
Vrooman.
14 A. Yeah --
15 MR. SUN: Yes, but not about --
16 A. -- only
once. He tell me that Judge Kwei is
17
our leader, you know. He's --
laboratory appoint Judge
18
Kwei to -- to be the liaison between laboratory and
19 Government. I think I'm -- I'm a very low-level
20
employee in the laboratory, so I think that's -- that's
21
very good for the laboratory has Judge Kwei --
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. -- to represent
us.
24 Q. Well, let's
refer to --
25 MR. KLAYMAN:
How many exhibits did we mark
102
1
this morning?
2 MR.
FITTON: One.
3 MR. KLAYMAN:
Let's mark -- where is that
4
Number 1 that we marked this morning?
5 MS. FITTON:
She's hiding it in her hand.
6 MR. KLAYMAN:
Okay. Let's mark this Exhibit
7
2, a memorandum of December 13, 1989.
8 (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)
9 Q. This is from
Robert Vrooman to Distribution,
10
"Meeting on People's Republic of China Contacts." I
11
read it this morning, but for ease of reference, I'll
12
read it again. "On December
11, 1989, Bob Vrooman,
13
Harold Sullivan, and Sylvia Lee met to discuss Sylvia's
14
role in arranging official contacts between Laboratory
15
staff and the PRC. Vrooman
explained the purpose of
16
the meeting was to clarify responsibilities and protect
17
Sylvia from unauthorized -- unauthorized infringement
18
on her time." Do you
remember Vrooman saying that to
19
you? Ms. Lee?
20 A. Um-hmm.
21 Q. Vrooman told
you that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. What did he say specifically, that --
24
what did he mean by an unauthorized infringement on
25
your time? Ms. Lee, have you
finished reading it?
103
1 A. Yeah, just a
minute.
2 Q. I'd like to
ask you some questions. What did
3
he mean by "unauthorized infringement on her time"?
4 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form.
5 Q. Ms. Lee, I'm
asking you a question.
6 MR. SUN: If
you know.
7 A. I think they
-- they -- they insinuate that I
8
better mind my own business, do --
do better work for
9
my group, right, for my section.
10 Q. What do you
mean by that? What do you mean
11
by that?
12 A. What is
it? What is it? You know, what do
13
you mean by "infringement"?
What do you mean
14
"infringement"?
"Infringement," I don't understand.
15 Q. They were
concerned that you would have too
16
much contact with the Chinese from the PRC? That's
17
what you mean? This was a polite
way of saying that
18
they were concerned that you might have too much
19
interaction with the scientists from the PRC, correct?
20 A. I -- I -- I
didn't know what they mean. I --
21
maybe.
22
Q. Turning back to Exhibit 1, page 11, the
23
Government -- Governmental Affairs Committee writes,
24
"Sylvia Lee," this is the top of the page, "had
25
extremely close contacts with visiting Chinese
104
1
scientific delegations. Sylvia,
in fact, had
2
volunteered to act as hostess for visiting Chinese
3
scientific delegations at Los Alamos Nuclear
4 Laboratories when such
visits first began in 1980, and
5
apparently had more extensive contacts and closer
6
relationships with these delegations than anyone else
7
at the laboratory. On one
occasion, moreover,
8
Wen-Ho-Lee had himself aggressively sought involvement
9
with the visiting Chinese scientific delegation,
10
insisting upon acting as an interpreter for the group
11
despite his inability to perform this function very
12
effectively."
13 That statement is true, is it not, that I
14
just read to you?
15 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form.
16 A. I -- I didn't
know.
17 Q. Well, let's
break it down. It is true that
18
you, Sylvia Lee, had extremely close contacts with
19
visiting Chinese scientific delegations?
20 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form.
21 Q. Correct?
22 A. I -- I -- I
really don't know. That's their
23
observation.
24 Q. Okay. Well --
25 A. I -- I cannot,
you know -- nobody ask me.
105
1 Q. It says in the
early 1980s, you began to act
2
as hostess for visiting Communist Chinese scientific
3
delegations. That's true, is it
not?
4 MR.
SUN: Objection as to form. That's not
5
what the document says.
6 MR. KLAYMAN:
I'm just paraphrasing.
7 Q. That's
correct, is it not? That's true, is
8
it not?
9 A. I -- I didn't
know.
10 Q. Well, I can go
through it, you know, every
11
step of the way, but I'm trying to --
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. -- speed it
up. I'll ask you questions about
14
the contacts that you had.
15 A. I don't know
whose opinion is it.
16 Q. All
right. What contacts did you have with
17
Chinese scientific delegations in the 1980s? Let's go
18
through it one after another.
19 A. Then I'm --
20 Q. You can answer
that. I'm not asking about
21
any Government involvement.
22 MR. COPPOLINO:
Well, the previous --
23 MR. KLAYMAN:
It's public. It's a matter of
24
public record.
25 MR. COPPOLINO:
All I'm saying is, is that
106
1
the previous limitation applies, that you cannot
2
discuss your dealings, the content of your dealings, or
3
the details of your dealings with the FBI. If you feel
4
you cannot address the question without disclosing
5
classified information, let us know.
6 THE WITNESS:
Yeah. I can't.
7 MR. KLAYMAN:
That's -- that's an
8
inappropriate instruction. That
is a convenient way
9
for -- let me put this on the record.
That's a
10
convenient way for her to cop out in terms of answering
11
a question. She doesn't get to
decide what she's going
12
to testify to or not. This is a
court proceeding.
13 MR. COPPOLINO:
If a witness -- if a witness
14
cannot answer the question without disclosing
15
classified information, then we would assert -- we
16
would object, and you can challenge that objection, if
17
you like. Now --
18 MR. SUN: I
just need a clarification from my
19
standpoint, and that is, for Mrs. Lee to answer that
20
question, she would probably have to identify names of
21
people who she may have communicated with from the
22
People's Republic of China, things of that nature,
23
because I think that's the call of the question, who
24
did she have contact with, and -- and I presume Mr.
25
Klayman will inquire as to when and who these people
107
1
were with. And if that is not
within the ambit of the
2
admonition, fine. As long as I
have that
3
clarification, I will instruct her to answer.
4 MR. KLAYMAN:
Okay. And I appreciate that.
5 MR. SUN: And
if -- but if it is within the
6
ambit of the admonition, then I'd like to have a
7
clarification for my client.
8 MR. KLAYMAN:
Yeah, and I want to know why
9
it's within the ambit of the admonition. We're not
10 asking about CIA
agents that may have been involved or
11
anything like that. We're just
-- we want to know who
12
she interacted with.
13 MR. COPPOLINO:
Well, let me confer.
14 MR. SUN: Or, as my point would be, is
15
whether or not and why she had those contacts. So that
16
that will get into the areas that are covered.
17 MR. KLAYMAN:
Right.
18 MR. COPPOLINO:
Let's confer. The longer you
19
stay on this subject, the longer this deposition is
20
going to take.
21 MR. KLAYMAN:
Well, we're going to stay on
22
it, and we'll ask for additional time from the Court.
23 MR. COPPOLINO:
Let's confer.
24 MR. KLAYMAN:
You want Mrs. Lee --
25 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:
We're going off the
108
1
record.
2 MR. KLAYMAN:
It's your expense.
3 MR. SUN: You
want me, Tony, and Mrs. Lee?
4 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:
We're going off the video.
5
MR. KLAYMAN: Off the video.
6 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:
We're going off the
7
record. The time is 2:09
p.m.
8 (Recess taken.)
9 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER:
We're back on the record.
10
The time is 2:18.
11 MR. COPPOLINO:
Thank you. Let me just state
12
the position of the United States.
We've been through
13
numerous questions on this subject area of Mrs. Lee's
14
contacts with scientists from the People's Republic of
15
China. We have attempted to give
guidance to narrow
16
the focus of these questions so that they could
17
proceed. In our view, that has
proven to be
18
unworkable. Therefore, at this
time, we are going to
19
indicate on the record that we will object to any
20
further questions on the subject of Mrs. Lee's contacts
21
with scientists from the People's Republic of China
22
because, in our view, it will risk the disclosure of
23
classified information as to which the Government would
24
assert a claim of privilege.
25 Mr. Klayman, of course, I know you will
109
1
object to this. You're perfectly
free to present the
2
matter to the Court.
3 MR. KLAYMAN:
Well, how will that risk the
4
disclosure of classified information?
5 MR. COPPOLINO:
I cannot explain that to you
6
because that, in itself, would tend to reveal why it
7
might. I can't explain to you the
basis for why
8
something is -- is classified. I
understand that's
9
difficult because you don't -- you don't access to that
10
information. All I can say to
you is that you have --
11
that you will have the opportunity to challenge any
12
objection that we make, and I -- and I understand that,
13
and I am prepared for that. My
responsibility here
14
today is to prevent the disclosure of classified
15
information and the risk that that information will be
16
disclosed.
17 If we go down a road where we let out a
18
little bit of information but not all, there is --
19
there is that -- that risk is there, and I can't allow
20
that to occur. I understand your
job is to probe for
21
facts, and I respect that, and I think you do your job
22
very well. But my responsibility
is to ensure that
23
information that is classified and subject to a claim
24
of privilege not be disclosed.
And it's my judgment at
25
this point that on this subject we've reached that
110
1
point; that there is a risk of disclosure of
2
classified, privileged information.
And for that
3
reason, I just have to ask that we move from this
4
subject, or I'm simply going to have to continue to
5
object. And -- and you can
certainly certify the
6
question.
7 MR. KLAYMAN:
No, we're not going to move
8
from the subject, and we're going to finish the
9
subject, and it's going to take us just as long because
10
we're going to ask specific questions, and you can
11
object.
12 MR. COPPOLINO:
Um-hmm.
13 MR. KLAYMAN:
That's point one. Point two,
14
hypothetically, suppose we didn't ask for actual names?
15
Is your objection then moot?
16 MR. COPPOLINO:
No, it's -- it's really the
17
subject area that -- that intrudes upon or risks the
18
disclosure of -- of classified information. We have
19
thought of ways to try to slice this as to what -- what
20
would be okay and what wouldn't, and our judgment is
21
that it's very difficult to slice.
There is -- you --
22
you do run the risk that even though some modicum of
23
information about a topic may not be technically
24
classified, that it -- it may lead to the disclosure of
25 classified
information, and if enough of those
111
1
individual pieces that aren't classified come out, the
2
information that is classified would thereby be
3
revealed. That's the concern
that we have today.
4 MR. KLAYMAN:
Well, you want to stipulate for
5
the record, maybe this will resolve your problem, that
6
Ms. Lee and Dr. Lee were in contact with individuals in
7
the People's Republic of China who are part of, or
8
affiliated with, Chinese intelligence?
9 MR. COPPOLINO:
Well --
10 MR. KLAYMAN:
That's one -- that's one
11
possible stipulation. The second
one could be that
12
they were in contact with individuals who were seeking
13
to obtain from them classified information on U.S.
14
nuclear programs. Now, I don't
see how that's
15
classified at all. That's not
classified. That's
16
something that, in fact, should be public.
17 MR. SUN:
Well, I'm certainly am not going to
18
stipulate to that to the extent that I have any
19
standing.
20 MR. COPPOLINO:
Yeah, I'm just not in
21
a position --
22 MR. KLAYMAN:
Well, we're not asking you to
23
stipulate to it.
24 MR. COPPOLINO:
I'm not in a position to
25
stipulate as to facts as to -- as to the facts that
112
1
you've suggested. And, you know,
if you'd -- if you'd
2
like to make your record as to the questions that you
3
want to ask so that your record is as complete as you
4
would want it to be for a motion, then I'll
5
certainly -- we'll have to do
that. You have the
6
right to do that.
7 MR. KLAYMAN:
All right. We'll do that.
8
We'll do that. But, again, I
mean, you're counsel
9
here, and this is not a threat, you're a very nice
10
person, it's nothing personal.
But you could wind up
11
getting yourself personally sanctioned in a very
12
substantial way here.
13 MR. COPPOLINO:
Mr. Klayman, I understand
14 that.
15 MR. KLAYMAN:
Because you're not even
16
intervening. The Court gave you
an opportunity to
17
intervene in this case. You're
not a party. You have
18
zero standing, and you're here putting monkey wrenches
19
into my questioning. We came out
here at great time
20
and expense. We have a limited
schedule. We're on the
21
rocket docket in the Eastern District of Virginia, and
22
you're just basically saying is that anything that
23
deals with my client, the Government, is off-limits,
24
and -- and I'm trying to reach a reasonable compromise
25
with you, and you're not doing that.
It's apparent
113
1
that for whatever reason, either you or the people that
2
you're working with didn't do your homework before you
3
came out here.
4 MR. COPPOLINO:
Mr. Klayman, I'm very
5
confident that our actions here, to prevent the
6
disclosure or the risk of disclosure of classified
7
information, would be recognized by the Court as
8
appropriate and proper. And my
-- that is my
9
obligation here. That's my
responsibility. And if my
10
judgment is that I cannot in some way reach a
11
stipulation with you or try to help you frame a
12
question in a manner that would avoid the disclosure or
13
the risk of disclosure of such information, then I
14
simply have to say that the subject area must be -- we
15
must leave the subject area --
16 MR. KLAYMAN:
Well, are you willing to --
17 MR. COPPOLINO:
-- and that's my judgment at
18
this point.
19 MR. KLAYMAN:
Are you willing, on behalf of
20
the Government, to enter into
some kind of procedure
21
where parties in this room get a limited security
22
clearance so we can get this information under seal?
23 MR. COPPOLINO:
No.
24 MR.
KLAYMAN: Why not?
25 MR. COPPOLINO:
I'm just not.
114
1 MR. KLAYMAN:
Well, you know, we submit for
2
purposes of the record, that the sole reason why the
3
Government does not want this information to come out,
4
because through its own incompetence it furthered the
5
-- a massive breach of national security at Los
6
Alamos. This FBI that you
represent has had one
7
scandal after another, from Ruby Ridge to Waco to
8
Robert Hanson. And, in fact,
you're largely
9
responsible for the terrorist activities that occurred
10
on this soil for failing to do your job, and that's one
11
of the reasons why we feel that you're throwing a
12
monkey wrench in it. You don't
want any further
13
embarrassments.
14 MR. COPPOLINO:
I think the appropriate thing
15
to do is just simply present the matter to the Court,
16
including your -- your arguments about that matter. If
17
you want to make those arguments, you could do that,
18
and we will present our position to the Court. And I
19
think we're really at the point where this is an issue
20
that the Court ought to address.
I really do not wish
21
to obstruct your inquiry. That
is not any goal, nor my
22
client's goal. Our -- and I
actually thought that by
23
trying to define the subject area earlier in the
24
deposition as to what would be classified would assist
25
you in working around it. That
doesn't seem to have
115
1
been the case. And I think that
the best thing to do
2
right now is just simply -- I think we've made a
3
sufficient record to present the matter to the Court.
4
If you have additional questions you want to ask, we'll
5
make the record on that.
6 MR. KLAYMAN:
I'm just -- I'm just making
7
sure we're clear on the record as to the appearance of
8
where we are right now on how this is significantly
9
hampering our case. So we'll go
through the questions.
10
Hopefully you'll reconsider.
11 And I turn your attention to page 27 of
12
Exhibit 1, which is the Governmental Affairs Committee
13
report, wherein that Governmental Affairs Committee
14
sets forth its -- sets forth its findings, in part, in
15
a Footnote Number 55. "The
evidence compiled focused
16
upon Wen-Ho-Lee and his wife Sylvia together. He had
17
access to the relevant weapons data while she had
18
access both to him and to visiting Chinese
19
delegations."
20 In a nutshell, that further shows the
21
relevancy of this, and it shows why the Government
22
investigated Wen Ho Lee. And Wen
Ho Lee in this case
23
is claiming that he was investigated because he was
24
singled out for racial profiling, which is why he
25
defamed our client along with his agents. So it's
116
1
directly relevant, and you're throwing a monkey wrench
2
into the central issue of the case.
3 I hope you reconsider.
4 MR. COPPOLINO:
Let me just state that, as
5
I've indicated before, the specific subject area that
6
is subject to the claim of privilege by the United
7
States concerns the nature of Mr. Lee's work in
8
connection with the FBI. That is
a narrow subject
9
area. But it's my judgment at
this time that that
10
privileged information -- that there is a risk of
11
disclosure of that privileged information in light of
12
Mr. Klayman's questions that he's been pursuing. And,
13
therefore, in order to prevent the risk of that
14
disclosure, I just have to request that we move on from
15
the subject area, and we'll have to object to further
16
questions on the subject area.
17 Q. What contacts
did you have with visiting
18
Chinese scientific delegations?
19 MR. COPPOLINO:
Okay. I object.
20 MR. SUN: I
instruct the witness not to
21
answer.
22 MR. KLAYMAN:
Certify it.
23 Q. Is it not true
that you volunteered to act as
24
a hostess for visiting Chinese scientific delegations
25
at Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratory when such visits first
117
1
began in 1980?
2 MR. COPPOLINO:
Object.
3 MR. SUN:
Instruct the witness not to answer.
4 Q. Is it not true
that you apparently had more
5
extensive contacts and closer relationships with these
6
delegations than anyone else at Los Alamos Nuclear
7
Laboratories?
8 MR. COPPOLINO:
Object.
9 MR. SUN:
Instruct the witness.
10 MR. KLAYMAN:
Now -- now, how, conceivably,
11
could that effect national security?
12 MR. COPPOLINO:
I really can't discuss the
13
classification reasoning with you, Mr. Klayman.
14 MR. KLAYMAN:
Did you raise these objections
15
in front of the Senate Government Affairs Committee?
16
Did your client raise them in front of the Senate
17
Government Affairs Committee?
Apparently not.
18 MR. COPPOLINO:
I don't know, Mr. Klayman.
19 MR. KLAYMAN:
Apparently not. So it's just
20
Judicial Watch and this Court who is getting this
21
treatment.
22 MR. COPPOLINO:
Mr. Klayman, I don't think
23
it's profitable for you and I to argue about this. I
24
think we should just make your record and present it to
25
the Court. I think that's the
most sensible thing we
118
1
could do. I'm sure you have
numerous other questions
2
for Mrs. Lee on other topics relevant to this lawsuit.
3 MR. KLAYMAN:
But I just asked questions that
4
confirmed what is already public, and this shows the
5
lack of good faith. It shows the
bad faith of you and
6
your client.
7 MR. COPPOLINO:
The problem that we have is
8
that questions on a particular subject area would tend
9
to reveal the information that the Government -- in the
10
Government's judgment is subject to a claim of
11
privilege on the grounds that it is classified. The
12
Senate report, or any public document, does not reveal
13
the full contours of the Government's classified
14
information. These are
unclassified particular
15
statements about particular topics.
But underlying
16
that report, and other public materials regarding the
17
Wen Ho Lee investigation, remains a great deal of
18
classified information, and your particular line of
19
questioning is touching on one.
20 MR. KLAYMAN:
But I was -- No, it was not
21
touching on it, because I just simply asked a question
22
to confirm information that was already public, which,
23
obviously, you and your client did not raise as an
24
objection in front of the Senate Government Affairs
25
Committee.
119
1 MR. COPPOLINO:
At the --
2 MR. KLAYMAN:
And even if you did, it was
3
obviously overruled by Congress.
4 MR. COPPOLINO:
You don't -- I think -- I
5
think the bottom line is, through no fault of your own,
6
Mr. Klayman, you don't understand the basis for my
7
objection because you don't have access to the
8
information which is forming the basis to my
9
objection. As I said, I'm not in
a position to discuss
10
that matter with you at today's deposition. And I do
11
think the most profitable thing would be for you to,
12
make your -- your record, and then we'll present it to
13
the Court. That's really all I
can offer in the
14
context of this deposition.
15 I'm sympathetic with the position that you're
16
in, but I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about it
17
at this time.
18 Q. Next
question: "On one
occasion...Wen-Ho-Lee
19
had himself aggressively sought involvement with the
20
visiting Chinese scientific delegation, insisting upon
21
acting as an interpreter for the group despite his
22
inability to perform this function very effectively.
23
That's true is not, Ms. Lee?
24 MR. COPPOLINO:
Hold on. I don't need to
25
object to that question.
120
1 A. No, I don't
know. That's Wen. You should
2
ask him.
3 Q. Well, he told
you that, didn't he? He wanted
4
to be an interpreter for scientific --
5 A. I don't
know. He never talked to me.
6 Q. He doesn't talk
to you at all?
7 A. Not very
often. So I didn't know.
8 Q. How many times
has he talked to you during
9
your marriage?
10 A. Recently, not
-- just none.
11 Q. He doesn't talk to you anymore?
12 A. No.
13 MR. SUN:
Objection to form. I'm not going
14
to allow her to get into communication between her and
15
her husband.
16 MR.
KLAYMAN: Certify it.
17 Q. The Senate
report then says, "In 1986, Wen-Ho
18
Lee and his wife traveled to China on Los Alamos
19
Nuclear Laboratory business to deliver a paper on
20
nuclear weapons-related science to a symposium in
21
Beijing." That's a correct
statement, is it not?
22 MR. COPPOLINO:
Hold on. I don't need to
23
object to that question.
24 MR. SUN:
Instruct the witness.
25 MR. COPPOLINO:
No, I said I don't need to.
121
1 MR. SUN: Oh,
don't?
2 MR. COPPOLINO:
Do I need to object? I don't
3
need to object to that question as to whether they --
4
they traveled to China, as stated here in the report.
5
Could you just remind me what page you're on, Mr. --
6 MR. SUN:
11.
7 MR. COPPOLINO:
11. Thank you.
8 MR. SUN: You
can answer that question.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That's true?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q.
"He," meaning Wen Ho Lee, "visited the
13
Chinese laboratory -- the Institute for Applied Physics
14
and Computational Mathematics (IAPCM) -- that designs
15
the PRC's nuclear weapons."
That's a true statement,
16
is it not?
17 MR. SUN: What
--
18 A. Yeah, what --
19 MR. SUN:
Where are you at now?
20 MR. KLAYMAN:
Page 11.
21 MR. SUN: Oh, I'm
sorry, I see where it is.
22
Can he answer that question -- can she answer that
23
question?
24 MR. COPPOLINO:
About Dr. Lee's visit to this
25
institute? He visited the
Chinese laboratory, the
122
1
Institute of Applied Physicals and Computational
2
Mathematics?
3 MR. SUN:
Yeah.
4 MR. COPPOLINO:
I have no objection to --
5 MR. SUN: You
can answer it, if you know the
6
answer.
7 MR. COPPOLINO:
-- to the question.
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. SUN: The
answer's yes.
10 Q. Then it
states, "The Lees visited the PRC
11
and IAPCM on LANL business again in 1988." That is
12
correct, is it not?
13 MR. COPPOLINO:
No objection to that
14
question.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. During those
meetings in 1986 and 1988,
17
scientists of IAPCM asked Dr. Lee questions, did they
18
not?
19 MR. COPPOLINO:
One moment, please.
20 A. I didn't know.
21 MR. COPPOLINO:
I have no objection to that
22
question.
23 MR. SUN: I
think she said I don't know
24
anyways.
25 MR.
COPPOLINO: Okay.
123
1 MR. SUN: Do
you know the answer to that
2
question?
3 A. No.
4 MR. SUN: She
doesn't know.
5 Q. You don't
know, one way or the other?
6 MR. SUN: You
have to say yes or no.
7 THE WITNESS:
No.
8 Q. Okay. But you are aware that Dr. Lee had
9 various conversations with
Chinese scientists during
10
these two trips, correct?
11 A. I -- I didn't
know.
12 Q. He didn't talk
to anybody when he went there?
13 A. I didn't know. I didn't know.
14 Q. You didn't
know what?
15 A. I didn't know
anyone talk to him. I -- I
16
didn't see anyone.
17 Q. You were with
him when he made these trips,
18
correct?
19 THE WITNESS:
Should I say the detail?
20 MR. SUN: I
think you can say where you were
21
at. I don't know --
22 THE WITNESS:
Yeah. We --
23 MR. SUN: I think -- I think you can say
24
where you were at?
25 A. Yeah. We -- I'm with family. They -- they
124
1
have a -- they organize a group for the family to tour
2
and go shopping. So I'm totally
separate with Wen Ho
3
during the trip.
4 Q. Well, you had
discussions with Chinese from
5
the PRC when you were there in 1986 and 1988, correct?
6 A. Not -- not --
not too much. I -- I think I
7
was with a group or family.
8 Q. Now, here's
what I'm trying to figure out.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Why, when I ask you a question, or I say
that
11
you had discussions with Chinese from the PRC, which
12
calls for a yes or no, do you answer "Not too much, I
13
was going shopping"?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. I mean, it
gives you -- it's giving me the
16
impression, Ms. Lee, correct me if I'm wrong, that
17
you're trying to hide something from me.
18 MR. SUN: I'm
going to object to that.
19 Q. That's not a
direct way of answering.
20 A. Also I'm --
I'm instructed not to answer.
21 Q. You know, I'll
be very patient. I can be
22
more patient than you.
23
A. Yes.
24 Q. I don't care
how long I have to stay here.
25
I'll be here three weeks if I have to.
125
1 MR. SUN:
Don't -- don't try to badger my
2
client. You know, the bottom
line is she's trying to
3
walk a line. We talked all
morning about it.
4 MR. KLAYMAN:
I'm sure not badgering about
5
it, and she finds this whole thing funny.
6 MR. SUN: We
find your obstinance in not
7
recognizing the fact that my client has to walk a fine
8
line between listening to the Government's admonitions
9
and trying to be responsive to your questions.
10 MR. KLAYMAN:
It's quite clear from --
11 MR. SUN: You
just don't get it.
12 MR. KLAYMAN:
It's quite clear from the
13
record your client does not want to give me a
14
straightforward answer to these questions. So I'm
15
asking you, as an officer of the Court, please consult
16
with her and make sure that this happens. This is not
17
a benefit to your client or to you.
It's not a
18
benefit. It's quite obvious that
I'm not getting
19
truthful responses here.
20 MR. SUN:
You're getting very truthful
21
responses. You just don't
understand what the issue
22
is.
23 THE WITNESS:
No, I -- I cannot say --
24 MR. KLAYMAN:
This deposition has turned into
25
-- into a joke.
126
1 THE WITNESS:
-- who I --
2 MR. COPPOLINO:
Wait. Is there a question on
3
the table? There's no question
on the table.
4 MR. SUN: All
right. Let Mr. Klayman pose
5
questions. Let's move on.
6 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
7 Q. My question
was, simply, did you have -- did
8
you have conversations with people from the People's
9
Republic of China during these two trips, 1986 and
10
1988?
11 THE WITNESS:
So -- so I --
12 MR. SUN: You
can answer that yes or no.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR.
SUN: Okay. She answered yes.
15 Q. Okay. And some of those conversations were
16
with Chinese scientists, correct?
17 MR. COPPOLINO:
As I've indicated before, I'm
18
going to object to this line of questioning.
19 MR. SUN:
Instruct you not to answer.
20 MR. KLAYMAN:
Now, how is that in any way
21
implicated with national security?
22 MR.
COPPOLINO: I can't explain that, Mr.
23
Klayman.
24 MR. KLAYMAN:
We -- we haven't even made an
25
implication that those Chinese scientists were trying
127
1
to do anything wrong or they were part of Chinese
2
intelligence or anything like that.
3 MR. COPPOLINO:
As I've indicated, the --
4
the subject area is going down a road that I'm
5
concerned will risk the disclosure of information that
6
I've been advised is subject to a claim of privilege on
7
the grounds of classification.
I've tried to explain
8
that to you several times. I'll
-- I'll keep trying,
9
but --
10 MR. KLAYMAN:
Suppose --
11 MR. COPPOLINO:
-- that's my position.
12 MR. KLAYMAN:
Suppose she says no, would that
13
implicate national security? If
she says no?
14 MR. COPPOLINO:
No to what?
15 MR. KLAYMAN:
That she didn't have these
16
conversations.
17 MR. COPPOLINO:
It's -- it's the inquiry into
18
the subject area that -- that we are objecting to.
19 MR. KLAYMAN:
Now, see -- now I'm testing
20
you, and it shows a lack of good faith.
If she says
21
no, that she had no such contacts, that doesn't
22
implicate any national security.
I mean, even under
23
your strained theory, that does not.
24 MR. SUN: You
know, I can't talk for Mr.
25
Coppolino, but, you know, we are wasting time. And so
128
1
we can engage in this dialogue all afternoon, or you
2
can pose questions to my client, Mr. Klayman.
3 MR.
COPPOLINO: I think we've indicated this
4
a subject area about as far as we can go. If you'd
5
like to continue to make your record, I'm afraid I --
6
there's nothing I can do to stop you from attempting to
7
make your record. And the record
you see fit to
8
present the matter to the Court, I think the record's
9
already been amply made at this point.
10 MR. SUN: I
concur.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm sure you do. You
12
don't want the information to come out.
You're
13
representing your client.
14 MR. KLAYMAN:
You know, in the Bellow's
15
report which has been declassified, and I refer you to
16
page 384.
17 MR. SUN: This
is not something you are going
18
to ask my client about, Mr. Klayman?
19 MR. KLAYMAN:
I'm going to ask her about it.
20 MR. SUN:
Okay.
21 Q. It states,
"In February 1996, Wen Ho Lee's
22
name came up again, and at this time, not a little bit
23
ironically from (blank) recollects that at some point
24
during SA and trip to LANL in February of 1996 for
25
purposes of reviewing LANL employee records (blank)
129
1
mentioned the Lees, and (blank) to SA, and he recalled
2
they were very interested in the information. He said
3
he mentioned the Lees after seeing their names on two
4
lists that the investigators were compiling concerning
5
LANL employees who had traveled to China and those who
6
had significant contact with Chinese visitors to LANL.
7
"I saw the Lees on the list.
He should have been on
8
the list. I was probably
responsible for the Lees'
9
name coming up."
"(Blank) conceded that the Lees were
10
the only names he raised with SA," meaning special
11
agent. "He did not identify
any other LANL employee or
12
share information concerning any other name on either
13
list. The specific information
shared concerned the
14
Lees (blank) and the 1982 contact when Wen Ho Lee and
15
(blank)."
16 "In short, Wen Ho Lee's name came to the AI's
17
investigators' attention repeatedly and it did so not
18
because he was Chinese American but for two principal
19
reasons: Wen Ho Lee's
involvement with (blank) and the
20
existence of an ongoing PI on Lee."
21 MR. SUN: Can
you, for the record, indicate
22
where you read from, Mr. Klayman?
23 MR. KLAYMAN:
Page 384.
24 MR. SUN: And
shall we mark this as an
25
exhibit? Just for the record.
130
1 MR. KLAYMAN:
That's fine. We can make it
2
Exhibit 3.
3 MR. SUN:
Okay. Thank you.
4 (Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)
5 MR. SUN: Did
you want her to look at this,
6
or were you just reading it into the record?
7 MR. KLAYMAN:
No. Right now, I'm reading it
8
into the record, and I'm pointing it out to Mr.
9
Coppolino, on behalf of the Government, that these
10
matter have already been declassified in the Bellow's
11
report, and we went through a long legal process where
12
the Court ordered you to declassify it.
So what's your
13
rationale after reading this?
14 MR. COPPOLINO:
Mr. Klayman, let me just
15
state again, I cannot explain to you the basis for my
16
objections, for that would disclose the information
17
that's at issue. What I can say,
having looked at the
18
passage that you've cited, there's a couple of things.
19 One is that I've not
objected to questions regarding
20
Wen Ho Lee's contacts in China.
Although it's
21
conceivable there may be a specific factual issue
22
involving that, that could be privileged, I have not
23
objected to those questions.
Secondly, I've not
24
objected to the fact that the Lees traveled to China as
25
is indicated on page 384 of the declassified Bellow's
131
1
report. Third, as should be
apparent from page 384 of
2
the Bellow's report, which itself has numerous
3
blacked-out -- numerous instances of blacked-out
4
information, not all information regarding Mrs. Lee's
5
travel to China is unclassified.
6 The statements on this page which are not
7
blacked out, are not classified statements anymore;
8
however, these statements do not go into the subject
9
area for which I have -- to which I have objected. And
10
it underscores that even though some specific facts and
11
statements are unclassified about the matter that
12 you're inquiring into,
other facts which underlie that
13
subject matter are not. So
that's my response.
14 MR. KLAYMAN:
Now -- but you're giving me a
15
blanket objection here, and I'm asking about contacts.
16
I'm not even able to ask generically that she met with
17
scientists.
18 MR. COPPOLINO:
Well, as I indicated a moment
19
ago, the concern with respect to that subject area is
20
that it risks the disclosure of information which is
21
subject to a claim of privilege.
And that -- and that
22
is why we have objected to that, and if you would like
23
to present the matter to the Court, we would -- we
24
could do that.
25 MR. KLAYMAN:
Well, I just wanted to see how
132
1
you were going to try to explain that away.
2 Q. Ms. Lee, do
you have -- have you entered into
3
any kind of an agreement with the Government? You
4
yourself?
5 MR. SUN:
Objection as to form. What kind
of
6
agreement?
7 Q. Do you have
any kind of agreement with the
8
Government?
9 MR. COPPOLINO:
Well, I think that I would
10
object on the grounds that it is an overbroad question
11
and could implicate the subject
area I described
12
earlier. We'd already indicated
that the fact that
13
Mrs. Lee had a working relationship with the FBI is --
14
is not classified. But when you
ask about what was her
15
agreement with them, that could tend to reveal
16
information that is subject --
17 MR. KLAYMAN:
No, I didn't ask that. That
18
wasn't the question I asked.
19 MR.
COPPOLINO: You asked if she had --
20 MR. KLAYMAN:
I said, "Do you have any kind
21
of agreement with the Government."
It was -- it was
22
very neutral.
23 MR. SUN: I
object to that as to form.
24 MR. COPPOLINO:
I just have to concur in the
25
objection, because when you ask her about what -- what
133
1
her agreement may have been with the Government, it
2
could tend to disclose --
3 MR. KLAYMAN:
I didn't ask her that yet. I
4
just asked her did she have any kind of an agreement.
5 MR. SUN: I
can't remember.
6 MR. COPPOLINO:
What?
7 MR. SUN: I
just -- I may have to go off the
8
record with you at a break to clarify something. But
9
the question's -- Go ahead and ask the question.
10 Q. Have you ever
had any agreement with the
11
Government?
12 A. I was -- I was
instruct not to --
13 Q. No, you
weren't instructed --
14 MR. SUN: You're not instructed not to
15
answer, so you can.
16 A. Oh. No, I don't have.
17 MR. SUN: