1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE

EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA

3 NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )

)

4 Plaintiff, )

)

5 v. ) Case No. 00-1527-A

)

6 WEN HO LEE, )

)

7 Defendant. )

______________________________)

8 )

NOTRA TRULOCK, III, )

9 )

Plaintiff, )

10 )

)

11 v. ) Case No. 00-1627-A

)

12 CHARLES E. WASHINGTON, et al.,)

)

13 Defendants. )

14 VOLUME II

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SYLVIA LEE

15 Suite 1500E

300 Central, Southwest

16 Albuquerque, New Mexico

October 12, 2001

17 1:47 p.m.

18 PURSUANT TO THE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL

PROCEDURE, this deposition was:

TAKEN BY: LARRY KLAYMAN

20 ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFF

REPORTED BY: Kendra D. Tellez, NM CCR #205

22 P D & O Reporting, Inc.

Suite 1500E

23 300 Central, Southwest

Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 For the Plaintiff:

3 JUDICIAL WATCH, INC.

Attorneys at Law

4 Suite 725

501 School Street, Southwest

5 Washington, D.C. 20024

By: Larry Klayman

6 Thomas J. Fitton

John L. Martin

8 For the Defendant Lee:

9 O'NEILL, LYSAGHT & SUN, LLP

Attorneys at Law

10 Suite 700

100 Wilshire Boulevard

11 Santa Monica, California 90401

By: Mr. Brian A. Sun

For the Defendant Vrooman:

LAW OFFICE OF GARY HOWARD SIMPSON

14 Attorneys at law

9505 Kingsley Avenue,

15 Bethesda, Maryland 20814

By: Ms. Alane Tempchine

Also Present: Will Moir (Videographer)

Mr. Anthony J. Coppolino

18 (United States Attorney)

19 Robert S. Sinton

Ms. Natalia Leons

20 Mike Lowe

(Federal Bureau of Investigation)

James E. Green

22 (DOE officer)

1 INDEX

2 SYLVIA LEE

Cont'd by Mr. Klayman 95

SIGNATURE/CORRECTION PAGE 230

CERTIFICATE PAGE 231

EXHIBITS

6 2. December 13, 1989 Memorandum from Vrooman to

Distribution 102

3. August 13, 2001, cover letter with Chapters 6

8 and 7 of Review Team 130

9 4. January 4, 2000, cover letter with unclassified

version of March 7, 1999, interview 152

5. Subpoena 175

6. July 28, 2000, letter to Chang from Holscher 202

7. March 21, 2000, letter to Chang from Sun 211

8. December 10, 1999, Press Release 214

9. Los Alamos Monitor Vrooman article 219

10. September 19, 1999, "For Immediate Release" 220

11. Declaration of Robert Vrooman 221

12. "Wen Ho Lee Information Packet" 226

13. "Memorandum in support of Motion for Discovery

19 of Materials related to Selective Prosecution

20 CERTIFIED QUESTIONS

21 Certified Question 116 17

Certified Question 120 11

22 Certified Question 152 21

Certified Question 177 2

23 Certified area 177 19

Certified Question 183 22

1 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. We're back on

2 the record, beginning with videotape 2. The time is

3 1:47.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. There's some things that

5 Mr. Sun said that would help clarify things that we

6 could put on the record.

7 MR. SUN: Well, I don't know about what we'll

8 put on the record, but if you were going to -- I think

9 wherever you left off, you were somewhere among

10 questioning about contacts with Mr. Vrooman, and as you

11 pursue that, I think you can clarify things if you

12 choose to pursue that further.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Before we went off the

14 record, we were talking about the potential to take

15 your deposition, the mainstay of your deposition. We

16 may be able to start it for a period before you leave,

17 but I want to finish Ms. Lee first -- Mrs. Lee. And

18 you are under the time constraint that you have to

19 leave by noon tomorrow, and I posed some dates during

20 the first week of December.

21 MR. SUN: November, I think.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: November, excuse me, in Los

23 Angeles. And I just want to get your agreement that we

24 can resume your deposition then or start it then.

25 MR. SUN: Well, I can do this: Right now, it

1 looks like I can do it some time this weekend. I just

2 don't know when. At the present time, that Saturday

3 and Sunday is -- is -- I don't have any previous

4 commitment that I'm aware of. I'm going to -- I didn't

5 get ahold of my secretary unfortunately, but I will try

6 to endeavor to do that before the end of the day.

7 Secondly, again -- and as to which day that

8 weekend, I'll have to determine that after checking

9 with my family.

10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you can choose which day.

11 I can be flexible on that.

12 MR. SUN: Okay. Thank you.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: But let me just put the dates

14 on the record.

15 MR. SUN: I think it's the 3rd and 4th,

16 somewhere around then.

17 MR. KLAYMAN: That's correct, December 3rd or

18 4th.

19 MR. SUN: November.

20 MR. KLAYMAN: November, I'm sorry.

21 MR. SUN: Fri- -- Saturday or Sunday.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Saturday or Sunday. So we'll

23 count on that. Okay.

24 MR. SUN: Yeah, at the present time I know of

25 no conflict. I have to check with my office further,

1 but I will keep you apprised. But, yes, that's a

2 weekend we can focus on.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: And if there is a conflict,

4 you'll make yourself available at a reasonable time and

5 place before the close of discovery?

6 MR. SUN: Yes. I think what I indicated was

7 I'm in trial in Las Vegas. There's a possibility I

8 might even suggest that we do the deposition in Las

9 Vegas if for some reason my trial commitments require

10 me to stay in Las Vegas that weekend, but I will work

11 with you to try to give you an appropriate time frame.

12 Assuming there's some time left on my deposition that

13 you're entitled to, then I'll try to work with you on

14 it.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Well, there will

16 be, because we need to go through Ms. Lee, and we're

17 making no -- excruciating slow process here.

18 MR. SUN: I agree with that.

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Progress, not process.

20 MR. SUN: Okay. Why don't we proceed.

21 MR. KLAYMAN: We can blame the Government for

22 that one.

23 MR. COPPOLINO: It wouldn't be the first time

24 that you blamed us for something.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we have to just blame you.

1 We're in business to blame you. Just a joke.

2 MR. COPPOLINO: I understand.

3 MR. SUN: There are a few things that Mr.

4 Klayman and I can agree on from time to time. Let's

5 proceed.

6 Q. (By Mr. Klayman) Ms. Lee, we were talking

7 about your contacts with the People's Republic of

8 China, and we were talking about your trip. Was it in

9 1986? Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. SUN: Is there -- is there --

12 Q. All right. Now, at that point, the

13 Government's representatives wanted to take a break,

14 because they wanted to, I think, consult on some other

15 issues. Were there other issues that you were

16 consulting on?

17 MR. COPPOLINO: I don't -- I don't recall.

18 There was no other issue we consulted on than the issue

19 we've already alerted you to the subject matter --

20 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.

21 MR. COPPOLINO: -- that we described to you

22 is my recollection.

23 MR. SUN: Right.

24 Q. Okay. We were talking about meetings that

25 you had with Robert Vrooman and Mr. Sullivan. Do you

1 remember that?

2 A. (Witness nods head.)

3 Q. Harold Sullivan?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And I asked you to explain to me what went on

6 during those meetings. And was there a meeting before

7 your trip in 1986? Is that when that meeting occurred?

8 A. Yeah, there's no meeting. I mean, Bob

9 Vrooman only organize by a conference for everyone to

10 go to the meeting to give us briefing about be careful

11 and just be sensitive about -- don't -- be careful not

12 to talk about any classify information, and Bob Vrooman

13 arrange many people from Washington, D.C., some CIA,

14 some is FBI to talk with the -- the auditorium, you

15 know, give us -- show us a slide. That's all.

16 Q. Right. But then you had a specific meeting

17 with Vrooman and Sullivan, correct? You had a --

18 A. They -- later he came -- Bob Vrooman came to

19 me and told me -- I think he told many people -- many

20 Chinese people in working at the lab, that laboratory

21 has appoint Judge Kwei. Judge Kwei is the only one

22 qualify to deal with Government outside laboratory.

23 MR. SUN: Kwei is K-W-E-I.

24 A. K-W-E-I. So that that -- that --

25 Q. What do you mean --

1 A. That's what he mean. Then I think -- I think

2 he mean that Judge Kwei is our leader. Judge Kwei is

3 our leader. He was represent all the Chinese people

4 working at the laboratory in -- and so I think -- I

5 think that's what he mean.

6 Q. He was the leader of --

7 A. He just -- you know, Bob Vrooman came to me

8 briefly. That -- that's all.

9 Q. Kwei was to do what with regard to Chinese

10 people from Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratories?

11 A. He's a liaison. Liaison between Government

12 and the Los Alamos Laboratory. Judge Kwei.

13 Q. Just for Chinese people?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Why did Chinese people need their own liaison?

16 A. I think at that time, some visiting Chinese

17 people from People's Repub- -- People's Republic of

18 China doing research, and some scientists from China

19 to -- you know, to visiting Los Alamos, because we have

20 many field is unclassified.

21 Q. Kwei was assigned --

22 A. Assigned by the laboratory.

23 Q. -- to the laboratory?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And where did Kwei come from? Did he come

1 from Los Alamos or --

2 A. Los Alamos.

3 Q. -- or from another government agency?

4 A. Los Alamos.

5 Q. He came from the Energy Department?

6 A. He work in the Los Alamos many, many years.

7 Q. And he's Chinese?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Chinese descent?

10 A. Um-hmm. Maybe his English is better.

11 Q. Was he assigned because there was a concern

12 that with Chinese scientists coming over, that

13 classified --

14 A. Maybe.

15 Q. -- material might get leaked accidentally?

16 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

17 A. Yeah, I don't know. I don't -- I don't know

18 what happened.

19 Q. So he was assigned to keep -- keep an eye on

20 the other Chinese?

21 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

22 A. I -- I didn't know.

23 Q. Keep track of Chinese workers for LANL --

24 A. I didn't know. I didn't know anything?

25 MR. SUN: Same objection.

1 Q. You didn't know why he was assigned.

2 MR. SUN: Asked and answered.

3 Q. You just know -- you didn't know why he was

4 assigned? You have to answer verbally.

5 A. No, I didn't know.

6 Q. You just knew that he was assigned with

7 regard to liaising with your group of Chinese workers

8 at Los Alamos when Chinese delegations arrive --

9 arrived from People's Republic of China?

10 A. I didn't know. I didn't --

11 Q. Did you find it -- did you find it strange

12 that Mr. Kwei was assigned to work with the Chinese

13 employees of Los Alamos when Chinese scientists came

14 over to visit?

15 A. I think --

16 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. Go ahead.

17 A. I think it's more convenient for the

18 laboratory to function. He -- he -- he's very, very

19 qualified. He got Ph.D. from Harvard or -- I think.

20 Q. What's he qualified at?

21 A. He has good science background.

22 Q. But -- but his role was just to interact with

23 the other Chinese and the laboratory, the Los Alamos

24 laboratory, when Chinese delegations came over from the

25 PRC?

100

1 A. Which I -- I -- I didn't know.

2 Q. Is that what his role was?

3 A. I didn't know. I just -- I just know his

4 title is.

5 Q. Did you feel like he was keeping track of you

6 and the other Chinese at Los Alamos?

7 A. No, I -- I don't feel this way.

8 Q. Did you feel that he was a spy for --

9 A. No.

10 Q. -- the U.S. Government?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. Then what was he doing being involved?

13 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

14 A. I -- I didn't know. I'm a very low-level

15 employee, you know. I didn't know anything happening

16 on high level --

17 Q. Did you ever think --

18 A. -- you know, in the lab.

19 Q. Did you ever think that maybe he worked for

20 the FBI?

21 A. I -- I didn't know.

22 Q. Did you ever think that? Did that come into

23 your mind?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Did anyone else express that?

101

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did anyone express that maybe he worked for

3 some other Government agency?

4 A. No.

5 Q. But you later had a meeting with Mr. Vrooman

6 about your travels to -- to China, correct?

7 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

8 A. This, I cannot answer.

9 Q. There are parts of it that you can answer.

10 A. I -- I didn't see Vrooman. I didn't meet

11 Vrooman.

12 Q. You testified this morning that you met with

13 Vrooman.

14 A. Yeah --

15 MR. SUN: Yes, but not about --

16 A. -- only once. He tell me that Judge Kwei is

17 our leader, you know. He's -- laboratory appoint Judge

18 Kwei to -- to be the liaison between laboratory and

19 Government. I think I'm -- I'm a very low-level

20 employee in the laboratory, so I think that's -- that's

21 very good for the laboratory has Judge Kwei --

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. -- to represent us.

24 Q. Well, let's refer to --

25 MR. KLAYMAN: How many exhibits did we mark

102

1 this morning?

2 MR. FITTON: One.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's mark -- where is that

4 Number 1 that we marked this morning?

5 MS. FITTON: She's hiding it in her hand.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Let's mark this Exhibit

7 2, a memorandum of December 13, 1989.

8 (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)

9 Q. This is from Robert Vrooman to Distribution,

10 "Meeting on People's Republic of China Contacts." I

11 read it this morning, but for ease of reference, I'll

12 read it again. "On December 11, 1989, Bob Vrooman,

13 Harold Sullivan, and Sylvia Lee met to discuss Sylvia's

14 role in arranging official contacts between Laboratory

15 staff and the PRC. Vrooman explained the purpose of

16 the meeting was to clarify responsibilities and protect

17 Sylvia from unauthorized -- unauthorized infringement

18 on her time." Do you remember Vrooman saying that to

19 you? Ms. Lee?

20 A. Um-hmm.

21 Q. Vrooman told you that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. What did he say specifically, that --

24 what did he mean by an unauthorized infringement on

25 your time? Ms. Lee, have you finished reading it?

103

1 A. Yeah, just a minute.

2 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions. What did

3 he mean by "unauthorized infringement on her time"?

4 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

5 Q. Ms. Lee, I'm asking you a question.

6 MR. SUN: If you know.

7 A. I think they -- they -- they insinuate that I

8 better mind my own business, do -- do better work for

9 my group, right, for my section.

10 Q. What do you mean by that? What do you mean

11 by that?

12 A. What is it? What is it? You know, what do

13 you mean by "infringement"? What do you mean

14 "infringement"? "Infringement," I don't understand.

15 Q. They were concerned that you would have too

16 much contact with the Chinese from the PRC? That's

17 what you mean? This was a polite way of saying that

18 they were concerned that you might have too much

19 interaction with the scientists from the PRC, correct?

20 A. I -- I -- I didn't know what they mean. I --

21 maybe.

22 Q. Turning back to Exhibit 1, page 11, the

23 Government -- Governmental Affairs Committee writes,

24 "Sylvia Lee," this is the top of the page, "had

25 extremely close contacts with visiting Chinese

104

1 scientific delegations. Sylvia, in fact, had

2 volunteered to act as hostess for visiting Chinese

3 scientific delegations at Los Alamos Nuclear

4 Laboratories when such visits first began in 1980, and

5 apparently had more extensive contacts and closer

6 relationships with these delegations than anyone else

7 at the laboratory. On one occasion, moreover,

8 Wen-Ho-Lee had himself aggressively sought involvement

9 with the visiting Chinese scientific delegation,

10 insisting upon acting as an interpreter for the group

11 despite his inability to perform this function very

12 effectively."

13 That statement is true, is it not, that I

14 just read to you?

15 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

16 A. I -- I didn't know.

17 Q. Well, let's break it down. It is true that

18 you, Sylvia Lee, had extremely close contacts with

19 visiting Chinese scientific delegations?

20 MR. SUN: Objection as to form.

21 Q. Correct?

22 A. I -- I -- I really don't know. That's their

23 observation.

24 Q. Okay. Well --

25 A. I -- I cannot, you know -- nobody ask me.

105

1 Q. It says in the early 1980s, you began to act

2 as hostess for visiting Communist Chinese scientific

3 delegations. That's true, is it not?

4 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. That's not

5 what the document says.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just paraphrasing.

7 Q. That's correct, is it not? That's true, is

8 it not?

9 A. I -- I didn't know.

10 Q. Well, I can go through it, you know, every

11 step of the way, but I'm trying to --

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. -- speed it up. I'll ask you questions about

14 the contacts that you had.

15 A. I don't know whose opinion is it.

16 Q. All right. What contacts did you have with

17 Chinese scientific delegations in the 1980s? Let's go

18 through it one after another.

19 A. Then I'm --

20 Q. You can answer that. I'm not asking about

21 any Government involvement.

22 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, the previous --

23 MR. KLAYMAN: It's public. It's a matter of

24 public record.

25 MR. COPPOLINO: All I'm saying is, is that

106

1 the previous limitation applies, that you cannot

2 discuss your dealings, the content of your dealings, or

3 the details of your dealings with the FBI. If you feel

4 you cannot address the question without disclosing

5 classified information, let us know.

6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I can't.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: That's -- that's an

8 inappropriate instruction. That is a convenient way

9 for -- let me put this on the record. That's a

10 convenient way for her to cop out in terms of answering

11 a question. She doesn't get to decide what she's going

12 to testify to or not. This is a court proceeding.

13 MR. COPPOLINO: If a witness -- if a witness

14 cannot answer the question without disclosing

15 classified information, then we would assert -- we

16 would object, and you can challenge that objection, if

17 you like. Now --

18 MR. SUN: I just need a clarification from my

19 standpoint, and that is, for Mrs. Lee to answer that

20 question, she would probably have to identify names of

21 people who she may have communicated with from the

22 People's Republic of China, things of that nature,

23 because I think that's the call of the question, who

24 did she have contact with, and -- and I presume Mr.

25 Klayman will inquire as to when and who these people

107

1 were with. And if that is not within the ambit of the

2 admonition, fine. As long as I have that

3 clarification, I will instruct her to answer.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. And I appreciate that.

5 MR. SUN: And if -- but if it is within the

6 ambit of the admonition, then I'd like to have a

7 clarification for my client.

8 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, and I want to know why

9 it's within the ambit of the admonition. We're not

10 asking about CIA agents that may have been involved or

11 anything like that. We're just -- we want to know who

12 she interacted with.

13 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, let me confer.

14 MR. SUN: Or, as my point would be, is

15 whether or not and why she had those contacts. So that

16 that will get into the areas that are covered.

17 MR. KLAYMAN: Right.

18 MR. COPPOLINO: Let's confer. The longer you

19 stay on this subject, the longer this deposition is

20 going to take.

21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we're going to stay on

22 it, and we'll ask for additional time from the Court.

23 MR. COPPOLINO: Let's confer.

24 MR. KLAYMAN: You want Mrs. Lee --

25 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the

108

1 record.

2 MR. KLAYMAN: It's your expense.

3 MR. SUN: You want me, Tony, and Mrs. Lee?

4 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the video.

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Off the video.

6 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the

7 record. The time is 2:09 p.m.

8 (Recess taken.)

9 MR. VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record.

10 The time is 2:18.

11 MR. COPPOLINO: Thank you. Let me just state

12 the position of the United States. We've been through

13 numerous questions on this subject area of Mrs. Lee's

14 contacts with scientists from the People's Republic of

15 China. We have attempted to give guidance to narrow

16 the focus of these questions so that they could

17 proceed. In our view, that has proven to be

18 unworkable. Therefore, at this time, we are going to

19 indicate on the record that we will object to any

20 further questions on the subject of Mrs. Lee's contacts

21 with scientists from the People's Republic of China

22 because, in our view, it will risk the disclosure of

23 classified information as to which the Government would

24 assert a claim of privilege.

25 Mr. Klayman, of course, I know you will

109

1 object to this. You're perfectly free to present the

2 matter to the Court.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, how will that risk the

4 disclosure of classified information?

5 MR. COPPOLINO: I cannot explain that to you

6 because that, in itself, would tend to reveal why it

7 might. I can't explain to you the basis for why

8 something is -- is classified. I understand that's

9 difficult because you don't -- you don't access to that

10 information. All I can say to you is that you have --

11 that you will have the opportunity to challenge any

12 objection that we make, and I -- and I understand that,

13 and I am prepared for that. My responsibility here

14 today is to prevent the disclosure of classified

15 information and the risk that that information will be

16 disclosed.

17 If we go down a road where we let out a

18 little bit of information but not all, there is --

19 there is that -- that risk is there, and I can't allow

20 that to occur. I understand your job is to probe for

21 facts, and I respect that, and I think you do your job

22 very well. But my responsibility is to ensure that

23 information that is classified and subject to a claim

24 of privilege not be disclosed. And it's my judgment at

25 this point that on this subject we've reached that

110

1 point; that there is a risk of disclosure of

2 classified, privileged information. And for that

3 reason, I just have to ask that we move from this

4 subject, or I'm simply going to have to continue to

5 object. And -- and you can certainly certify the

6 question.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we're not going to move

8 from the subject, and we're going to finish the

9 subject, and it's going to take us just as long because

10 we're going to ask specific questions, and you can

11 object.

12 MR. COPPOLINO: Um-hmm.

13 MR. KLAYMAN: That's point one. Point two,

14 hypothetically, suppose we didn't ask for actual names?

15 Is your objection then moot?

16 MR. COPPOLINO: No, it's -- it's really the

17 subject area that -- that intrudes upon or risks the

18 disclosure of -- of classified information. We have

19 thought of ways to try to slice this as to what -- what

20 would be okay and what wouldn't, and our judgment is

21 that it's very difficult to slice. There is -- you --

22 you do run the risk that even though some modicum of

23 information about a topic may not be technically

24 classified, that it -- it may lead to the disclosure of

25 classified information, and if enough of those

111

1 individual pieces that aren't classified come out, the

2 information that is classified would thereby be

3 revealed. That's the concern that we have today.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you want to stipulate for

5 the record, maybe this will resolve your problem, that

6 Ms. Lee and Dr. Lee were in contact with individuals in

7 the People's Republic of China who are part of, or

8 affiliated with, Chinese intelligence?

9 MR. COPPOLINO: Well --

10 MR. KLAYMAN: That's one -- that's one

11 possible stipulation. The second one could be that

12 they were in contact with individuals who were seeking

13 to obtain from them classified information on U.S.

14 nuclear programs. Now, I don't see how that's

15 classified at all. That's not classified. That's

16 something that, in fact, should be public.

17 MR. SUN: Well, I'm certainly am not going to

18 stipulate to that to the extent that I have any

19 standing.

20 MR. COPPOLINO: Yeah, I'm just not in

21 a position --

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we're not asking you to

23 stipulate to it.

24 MR. COPPOLINO: I'm not in a position to

25 stipulate as to facts as to -- as to the facts that

112

1 you've suggested. And, you know, if you'd -- if you'd

2 like to make your record as to the questions that you

3 want to ask so that your record is as complete as you

4 would want it to be for a motion, then I'll

5 certainly -- we'll have to do that. You have the

6 right to do that.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. We'll do that.

8 We'll do that. But, again, I mean, you're counsel

9 here, and this is not a threat, you're a very nice

10 person, it's nothing personal. But you could wind up

11 getting yourself personally sanctioned in a very

12 substantial way here.

13 MR. COPPOLINO: Mr. Klayman, I understand

14 that.

15 MR. KLAYMAN: Because you're not even

16 intervening. The Court gave you an opportunity to

17 intervene in this case. You're not a party. You have

18 zero standing, and you're here putting monkey wrenches

19 into my questioning. We came out here at great time

20 and expense. We have a limited schedule. We're on the

21 rocket docket in the Eastern District of Virginia, and

22 you're just basically saying is that anything that

23 deals with my client, the Government, is off-limits,

24 and -- and I'm trying to reach a reasonable compromise

25 with you, and you're not doing that. It's apparent

113

1 that for whatever reason, either you or the people that

2 you're working with didn't do your homework before you

3 came out here.

4 MR. COPPOLINO: Mr. Klayman, I'm very

5 confident that our actions here, to prevent the

6 disclosure or the risk of disclosure of classified

7 information, would be recognized by the Court as

8 appropriate and proper. And my -- that is my

9 obligation here. That's my responsibility. And if my

10 judgment is that I cannot in some way reach a

11 stipulation with you or try to help you frame a

12 question in a manner that would avoid the disclosure or

13 the risk of disclosure of such information, then I

14 simply have to say that the subject area must be -- we

15 must leave the subject area --

16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, are you willing to --

17 MR. COPPOLINO: -- and that's my judgment at

18 this point.

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you willing, on behalf of

20 the Government, to enter into some kind of procedure

21 where parties in this room get a limited security

22 clearance so we can get this information under seal?

23 MR. COPPOLINO: No.

24 MR. KLAYMAN: Why not?

25 MR. COPPOLINO: I'm just not.

114

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you know, we submit for

2 purposes of the record, that the sole reason why the

3 Government does not want this information to come out,

4 because through its own incompetence it furthered the

5 -- a massive breach of national security at Los

6 Alamos. This FBI that you represent has had one

7 scandal after another, from Ruby Ridge to Waco to

8 Robert Hanson. And, in fact, you're largely

9 responsible for the terrorist activities that occurred

10 on this soil for failing to do your job, and that's one

11 of the reasons why we feel that you're throwing a

12 monkey wrench in it. You don't want any further

13 embarrassments.

14 MR. COPPOLINO: I think the appropriate thing

15 to do is just simply present the matter to the Court,

16 including your -- your arguments about that matter. If

17 you want to make those arguments, you could do that,

18 and we will present our position to the Court. And I

19 think we're really at the point where this is an issue

20 that the Court ought to address. I really do not wish

21 to obstruct your inquiry. That is not any goal, nor my

22 client's goal. Our -- and I actually thought that by

23 trying to define the subject area earlier in the

24 deposition as to what would be classified would assist

25 you in working around it. That doesn't seem to have

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1 been the case. And I think that the best thing to do

2 right now is just simply -- I think we've made a

3 sufficient record to present the matter to the Court.

4 If you have additional questions you want to ask, we'll

5 make the record on that.

6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just -- I'm just making

7 sure we're clear on the record as to the appearance of

8 where we are right now on how this is significantly

9 hampering our case. So we'll go through the questions.

10 Hopefully you'll reconsider.

11 And I turn your attention to page 27 of

12 Exhibit 1, which is the Governmental Affairs Committee

13 report, wherein that Governmental Affairs Committee

14 sets forth its -- sets forth its findings, in part, in

15 a Footnote Number 55. "The evidence compiled focused

16 upon Wen-Ho-Lee and his wife Sylvia together. He had

17 access to the relevant weapons data while she had

18 access both to him and to visiting Chinese

19 delegations."

20 In a nutshell, that further shows the

21 relevancy of this, and it shows why the Government

22 investigated Wen Ho Lee. And Wen Ho Lee in this case

23 is claiming that he was investigated because he was

24 singled out for racial profiling, which is why he

25 defamed our client along with his agents. So it's

116

1 directly relevant, and you're throwing a monkey wrench

2 into the central issue of the case.

3 I hope you reconsider.

4 MR. COPPOLINO: Let me just state that, as

5 I've indicated before, the specific subject area that

6 is subject to the claim of privilege by the United

7 States concerns the nature of Mr. Lee's work in

8 connection with the FBI. That is a narrow subject

9 area. But it's my judgment at this time that that

10 privileged information -- that there is a risk of

11 disclosure of that privileged information in light of

12 Mr. Klayman's questions that he's been pursuing. And,

13 therefore, in order to prevent the risk of that

14 disclosure, I just have to request that we move on from

15 the subject area, and we'll have to object to further

16 questions on the subject area.

17 Q. What contacts did you have with visiting

18 Chinese scientific delegations?

19 MR. COPPOLINO: Okay. I object.

20 MR. SUN: I instruct the witness not to

21 answer.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

23 Q. Is it not true that you volunteered to act as

24 a hostess for visiting Chinese scientific delegations

25 at Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratory when such visits first

117

1 began in 1980?

2 MR. COPPOLINO: Object.

3 MR. SUN: Instruct the witness not to answer.

4 Q. Is it not true that you apparently had more

5 extensive contacts and closer relationships with these

6 delegations than anyone else at Los Alamos Nuclear

7 Laboratories?

8 MR. COPPOLINO: Object.

9 MR. SUN: Instruct the witness.

10 MR. KLAYMAN: Now -- now, how, conceivably,

11 could that effect national security?

12 MR. COPPOLINO: I really can't discuss the

13 classification reasoning with you, Mr. Klayman.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Did you raise these objections

15 in front of the Senate Government Affairs Committee?

16 Did your client raise them in front of the Senate

17 Government Affairs Committee? Apparently not.

18 MR. COPPOLINO: I don't know, Mr. Klayman.

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Apparently not. So it's just

20 Judicial Watch and this Court who is getting this

21 treatment.

22 MR. COPPOLINO: Mr. Klayman, I don't think

23 it's profitable for you and I to argue about this. I

24 think we should just make your record and present it to

25 the Court. I think that's the most sensible thing we

118

1 could do. I'm sure you have numerous other questions

2 for Mrs. Lee on other topics relevant to this lawsuit.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: But I just asked questions that

4 confirmed what is already public, and this shows the

5 lack of good faith. It shows the bad faith of you and

6 your client.

7 MR. COPPOLINO: The problem that we have is

8 that questions on a particular subject area would tend

9 to reveal the information that the Government -- in the

10 Government's judgment is subject to a claim of

11 privilege on the grounds that it is classified. The

12 Senate report, or any public document, does not reveal

13 the full contours of the Government's classified

14 information. These are unclassified particular

15 statements about particular topics. But underlying

16 that report, and other public materials regarding the

17 Wen Ho Lee investigation, remains a great deal of

18 classified information, and your particular line of

19 questioning is touching on one.

20 MR. KLAYMAN: But I was -- No, it was not

21 touching on it, because I just simply asked a question

22 to confirm information that was already public, which,

23 obviously, you and your client did not raise as an

24 objection in front of the Senate Government Affairs

25 Committee.

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1 MR. COPPOLINO: At the --

2 MR. KLAYMAN: And even if you did, it was

3 obviously overruled by Congress.

4 MR. COPPOLINO: You don't -- I think -- I

5 think the bottom line is, through no fault of your own,

6 Mr. Klayman, you don't understand the basis for my

7 objection because you don't have access to the

8 information which is forming the basis to my

9 objection. As I said, I'm not in a position to discuss

10 that matter with you at today's deposition. And I do

11 think the most profitable thing would be for you to,

12 make your -- your record, and then we'll present it to

13 the Court. That's really all I can offer in the

14 context of this deposition.

15 I'm sympathetic with the position that you're

16 in, but I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about it

17 at this time.

18 Q. Next question: "On one occasion...Wen-Ho-Lee

19 had himself aggressively sought involvement with the

20 visiting Chinese scientific delegation, insisting upon

21 acting as an interpreter for the group despite his

22 inability to perform this function very effectively.

23 That's true is not, Ms. Lee?

24 MR. COPPOLINO: Hold on. I don't need to

25 object to that question.

120

1 A. No, I don't know. That's Wen. You should

2 ask him.

3 Q. Well, he told you that, didn't he? He wanted

4 to be an interpreter for scientific --

5 A. I don't know. He never talked to me.

6 Q. He doesn't talk to you at all?

7 A. Not very often. So I didn't know.

8 Q. How many times has he talked to you during

9 your marriage?

10 A. Recently, not -- just none.

11 Q. He doesn't talk to you anymore?

12 A. No.

13 MR. SUN: Objection to form. I'm not going

14 to allow her to get into communication between her and

15 her husband.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.

17 Q. The Senate report then says, "In 1986, Wen-Ho

18 Lee and his wife traveled to China on Los Alamos

19 Nuclear Laboratory business to deliver a paper on

20 nuclear weapons-related science to a symposium in

21 Beijing." That's a correct statement, is it not?

22 MR. COPPOLINO: Hold on. I don't need to

23 object to that question.

24 MR. SUN: Instruct the witness.

25 MR. COPPOLINO: No, I said I don't need to.

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1 MR. SUN: Oh, don't?

2 MR. COPPOLINO: Do I need to object? I don't

3 need to object to that question as to whether they --

4 they traveled to China, as stated here in the report.

5 Could you just remind me what page you're on, Mr. --

6 MR. SUN: 11.

7 MR. COPPOLINO: 11. Thank you.

8 MR. SUN: You can answer that question.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That's true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. "He," meaning Wen Ho Lee, "visited the

13 Chinese laboratory -- the Institute for Applied Physics

14 and Computational Mathematics (IAPCM) -- that designs

15 the PRC's nuclear weapons." That's a true statement,

16 is it not?

17 MR. SUN: What --

18 A. Yeah, what --

19 MR. SUN: Where are you at now?

20 MR. KLAYMAN: Page 11.

21 MR. SUN: Oh, I'm sorry, I see where it is.

22 Can he answer that question -- can she answer that

23 question?

24 MR. COPPOLINO: About Dr. Lee's visit to this

25 institute? He visited the Chinese laboratory, the

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1 Institute of Applied Physicals and Computational

2 Mathematics?

3 MR. SUN: Yeah.

4 MR. COPPOLINO: I have no objection to --

5 MR. SUN: You can answer it, if you know the

6 answer.

7 MR. COPPOLINO: -- to the question.

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. SUN: The answer's yes.

10 Q. Then it states, "The Lees visited the PRC

11 and IAPCM on LANL business again in 1988." That is

12 correct, is it not?

13 MR. COPPOLINO: No objection to that

14 question.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. During those meetings in 1986 and 1988,

17 scientists of IAPCM asked Dr. Lee questions, did they

18 not?

19 MR. COPPOLINO: One moment, please.

20 A. I didn't know.

21 MR. COPPOLINO: I have no objection to that

22 question.

23 MR. SUN: I think she said I don't know

24 anyways.

25 MR. COPPOLINO: Okay.

123

1 MR. SUN: Do you know the answer to that

2 question?

3 A. No.

4 MR. SUN: She doesn't know.

5 Q. You don't know, one way or the other?

6 MR. SUN: You have to say yes or no.

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 Q. Okay. But you are aware that Dr. Lee had

9 various conversations with Chinese scientists during

10 these two trips, correct?

11 A. I -- I didn't know.

12 Q. He didn't talk to anybody when he went there?

13 A. I didn't know. I didn't know.

14 Q. You didn't know what?

15 A. I didn't know anyone talk to him. I -- I

16 didn't see anyone.

17 Q. You were with him when he made these trips,

18 correct?

19 THE WITNESS: Should I say the detail?

20 MR. SUN: I think you can say where you were

21 at. I don't know --

22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. We --

23 MR. SUN: I think -- I think you can say

24 where you were at?

25 A. Yeah. We -- I'm with family. They -- they

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1 have a -- they organize a group for the family to tour

2 and go shopping. So I'm totally separate with Wen Ho

3 during the trip.

4 Q. Well, you had discussions with Chinese from

5 the PRC when you were there in 1986 and 1988, correct?

6 A. Not -- not -- not too much. I -- I think I

7 was with a group or family.

8 Q. Now, here's what I'm trying to figure out.

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. Why, when I ask you a question, or I say that

11 you had discussions with Chinese from the PRC, which

12 calls for a yes or no, do you answer "Not too much, I

13 was going shopping"?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. I mean, it gives you -- it's giving me the

16 impression, Ms. Lee, correct me if I'm wrong, that

17 you're trying to hide something from me.

18 MR. SUN: I'm going to object to that.

19 Q. That's not a direct way of answering.

20 A. Also I'm -- I'm instructed not to answer.

21 Q. You know, I'll be very patient. I can be

22 more patient than you.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I don't care how long I have to stay here.

25 I'll be here three weeks if I have to.

125

1 MR. SUN: Don't -- don't try to badger my

2 client. You know, the bottom line is she's trying to

3 walk a line. We talked all morning about it.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sure not badgering about

5 it, and she finds this whole thing funny.

6 MR. SUN: We find your obstinance in not

7 recognizing the fact that my client has to walk a fine

8 line between listening to the Government's admonitions

9 and trying to be responsive to your questions.

10 MR. KLAYMAN: It's quite clear from --

11 MR. SUN: You just don't get it.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: It's quite clear from the

13 record your client does not want to give me a

14 straightforward answer to these questions. So I'm

15 asking you, as an officer of the Court, please consult

16 with her and make sure that this happens. This is not

17 a benefit to your client or to you. It's not a

18 benefit. It's quite obvious that I'm not getting

19 truthful responses here.

20 MR. SUN: You're getting very truthful

21 responses. You just don't understand what the issue

22 is.

23 THE WITNESS: No, I -- I cannot say --

24 MR. KLAYMAN: This deposition has turned into

25 -- into a joke.

126

1 THE WITNESS: -- who I --

2 MR. COPPOLINO: Wait. Is there a question on

3 the table? There's no question on the table.

4 MR. SUN: All right. Let Mr. Klayman pose

5 questions. Let's move on.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay.

7 Q. My question was, simply, did you have -- did

8 you have conversations with people from the People's

9 Republic of China during these two trips, 1986 and

10 1988?

11 THE WITNESS: So -- so I --

12 MR. SUN: You can answer that yes or no.

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. SUN: Okay. She answered yes.

15 Q. Okay. And some of those conversations were

16 with Chinese scientists, correct?

17 MR. COPPOLINO: As I've indicated before, I'm

18 going to object to this line of questioning.

19 MR. SUN: Instruct you not to answer.

20 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, how is that in any way

21 implicated with national security?

22 MR. COPPOLINO: I can't explain that, Mr.

23 Klayman.

24 MR. KLAYMAN: We -- we haven't even made an

25 implication that those Chinese scientists were trying

127

1 to do anything wrong or they were part of Chinese

2 intelligence or anything like that.

3 MR. COPPOLINO: As I've indicated, the --

4 the subject area is going down a road that I'm

5 concerned will risk the disclosure of information that

6 I've been advised is subject to a claim of privilege on

7 the grounds of classification. I've tried to explain

8 that to you several times. I'll -- I'll keep trying,

9 but --

10 MR. KLAYMAN: Suppose --

11 MR. COPPOLINO: -- that's my position.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: Suppose she says no, would that

13 implicate national security? If she says no?

14 MR. COPPOLINO: No to what?

15 MR. KLAYMAN: That she didn't have these

16 conversations.

17 MR. COPPOLINO: It's -- it's the inquiry into

18 the subject area that -- that we are objecting to.

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, see -- now I'm testing

20 you, and it shows a lack of good faith. If she says

21 no, that she had no such contacts, that doesn't

22 implicate any national security. I mean, even under

23 your strained theory, that does not.

24 MR. SUN: You know, I can't talk for Mr.

25 Coppolino, but, you know, we are wasting time. And so

128

1 we can engage in this dialogue all afternoon, or you

2 can pose questions to my client, Mr. Klayman.

3 MR. COPPOLINO: I think we've indicated this

4 a subject area about as far as we can go. If you'd

5 like to continue to make your record, I'm afraid I --

6 there's nothing I can do to stop you from attempting to

7 make your record. And the record you see fit to

8 present the matter to the Court, I think the record's

9 already been amply made at this point.

10 MR. SUN: I concur.

11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm sure you do. You

12 don't want the information to come out. You're

13 representing your client.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: You know, in the Bellow's

15 report which has been declassified, and I refer you to

16 page 384.

17 MR. SUN: This is not something you are going

18 to ask my client about, Mr. Klayman?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to ask her about it.

20 MR. SUN: Okay.

21 Q. It states, "In February 1996, Wen Ho Lee's

22 name came up again, and at this time, not a little bit

23 ironically from (blank) recollects that at some point

24 during SA and trip to LANL in February of 1996 for

25 purposes of reviewing LANL employee records (blank)

129

1 mentioned the Lees, and (blank) to SA, and he recalled

2 they were very interested in the information. He said

3 he mentioned the Lees after seeing their names on two

4 lists that the investigators were compiling concerning

5 LANL employees who had traveled to China and those who

6 had significant contact with Chinese visitors to LANL.

7 "I saw the Lees on the list. He should have been on

8 the list. I was probably responsible for the Lees'

9 name coming up." "(Blank) conceded that the Lees were

10 the only names he raised with SA," meaning special

11 agent. "He did not identify any other LANL employee or

12 share information concerning any other name on either

13 list. The specific information shared concerned the

14 Lees (blank) and the 1982 contact when Wen Ho Lee and

15 (blank)."

16 "In short, Wen Ho Lee's name came to the AI's

17 investigators' attention repeatedly and it did so not

18 because he was Chinese American but for two principal

19 reasons: Wen Ho Lee's involvement with (blank) and the

20 existence of an ongoing PI on Lee."

21 MR. SUN: Can you, for the record, indicate

22 where you read from, Mr. Klayman?

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Page 384.

24 MR. SUN: And shall we mark this as an

25 exhibit? Just for the record.

130

1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. We can make it

2 Exhibit 3.

3 MR. SUN: Okay. Thank you.

4 (Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)

5 MR. SUN: Did you want her to look at this,

6 or were you just reading it into the record?

7 MR. KLAYMAN: No. Right now, I'm reading it

8 into the record, and I'm pointing it out to Mr.

9 Coppolino, on behalf of the Government, that these

10 matter have already been declassified in the Bellow's

11 report, and we went through a long legal process where

12 the Court ordered you to declassify it. So what's your

13 rationale after reading this?

14 MR. COPPOLINO: Mr. Klayman, let me just

15 state again, I cannot explain to you the basis for my

16 objections, for that would disclose the information

17 that's at issue. What I can say, having looked at the

18 passage that you've cited, there's a couple of things.

19 One is that I've not objected to questions regarding

20 Wen Ho Lee's contacts in China. Although it's

21 conceivable there may be a specific factual issue

22 involving that, that could be privileged, I have not

23 objected to those questions. Secondly, I've not

24 objected to the fact that the Lees traveled to China as

25 is indicated on page 384 of the declassified Bellow's

131

1 report. Third, as should be apparent from page 384 of

2 the Bellow's report, which itself has numerous

3 blacked-out -- numerous instances of blacked-out

4 information, not all information regarding Mrs. Lee's

5 travel to China is unclassified.

6 The statements on this page which are not

7 blacked out, are not classified statements anymore;

8 however, these statements do not go into the subject

9 area for which I have -- to which I have objected. And

10 it underscores that even though some specific facts and

11 statements are unclassified about the matter that

12 you're inquiring into, other facts which underlie that

13 subject matter are not. So that's my response.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Now -- but you're giving me a

15 blanket objection here, and I'm asking about contacts.

16 I'm not even able to ask generically that she met with

17 scientists.

18 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, as I indicated a moment

19 ago, the concern with respect to that subject area is

20 that it risks the disclosure of information which is

21 subject to a claim of privilege. And that -- and that

22 is why we have objected to that, and if you would like

23 to present the matter to the Court, we would -- we

24 could do that.

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I just wanted to see how

132

1 you were going to try to explain that away.

2 Q. Ms. Lee, do you have -- have you entered into

3 any kind of an agreement with the Government? You

4 yourself?

5 MR. SUN: Objection as to form. What kind of

6 agreement?

7 Q. Do you have any kind of agreement with the

8 Government?

9 MR. COPPOLINO: Well, I think that I would

10 object on the grounds that it is an overbroad question

11 and could implicate the subject area I described

12 earlier. We'd already indicated that the fact that

13 Mrs. Lee had a working relationship with the FBI is --

14 is not classified. But when you ask about what was her

15 agreement with them, that could tend to reveal

16 information that is subject --

17 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I didn't ask that. That

18 wasn't the question I asked.

19 MR. COPPOLINO: You asked if she had --

20 MR. KLAYMAN: I said, "Do you have any kind

21 of agreement with the Government." It was -- it was

22 very neutral.

23 MR. SUN: I object to that as to form.

24 MR. COPPOLINO: I just have to concur in the

25 objection, because when you ask her about what -- what

133

1 her agreement may have been with the Government, it

2 could tend to disclose --

3 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask her that yet. I

4 just asked her did she have any kind of an agreement.

5 MR. SUN: I can't remember.

6 MR. COPPOLINO: What?

7 MR. SUN: I just -- I may have to go off the

8 record with you at a break to clarify something. But

9 the question's -- Go ahead and ask the question.

10 Q. Have you ever had any agreement with the

11 Government?

12 A. I was -- I was instruct not to --

13 Q. No, you weren't instructed --

14 MR. SUN: You're not instructed not to

15 answer, so you can.

16 A. Oh. No, I don't have.

17 MR. SUN: