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Judicial Watch • 13 6 20 transcript IRS Scandal

13 6 20 transcript IRS Scandal

13 6 20 transcript IRS Scandal

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Category:IRS Scandal

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Date Created:April 8, 2014

Date Uploaded to the Library:April 08, 2014

Tags:DOMA, Bill Clinton, ACLU, Benghazi, ATF, Obama, FBI, White House, Supreme Court, EPA, IRS, ICE, CIA


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ldquo;THE CONTINUING OBAMA IRS SCANDAL 
header_main
 
 
 
MODERATOR:   
 
TOM FITTON,  
PRESIDENT, JUDICIAL WATCH 
 
 
PANELISTS: 
 
CONGRESSMAN JIM JORDAN (OH-04),  
U.S. HOUSE REPRESENTATIVES  
 
CLETA MITCHELL, PARTNER,  
FOLEY LARDNER LLP  
 
BRIAN BROWN, PRESIDENT,  
NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR MARRIAGE  
 
JENNY BETH MARTIN, CO-FOUNDER,  
TEA PARTY PATRIOTS 
 
 
 
 
THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2013 
 
TRANSCRIPT PROVIDED TRANSCRIPTION  WWW.DCTMR.COM  
 
  
 
 
 
 
TOM FITTON: have folks waiting for the Internet and our other panelists expect will joining us. know the congressman his way.  Welcome our offices here Judicial Watch Washington, D.C.   
 
Im Tom Fitton, Judicial Watchs president.  And for those you who dont know, Judicial Watch conservative, non-partisan educational foundation dedicated transparency, integrity and accountability government politics and the law.  And through our activities, our educational activities, advocate high standards ethics and morality our nations public life and seek ensure that political and judicial officials not abuse the powers entrusted them the American people.   
 
Welcome.  Judicial Watch does not endorse oppose candidates for public office.  Thank you.  Welcome our presentation.  This the continuing Obama IRS scandal.  And lets get right into it.   
 
You know, experience, the term BOLO, B-O-L-O, law enforcement term short for be the lookout for criminals and suspects the run.  But for the Obama IRS, BOLO meant literally be the lookout for citizens groups who might opposed the Obama agenda.   
 
Here are some the facts know them today.  First, know that the IRS purposely stonewalled the approval non-profit applications from tea party and other conservative groups that were seeking tax exempt status and that CNN disclosed among the criteria used IRS officials flag applications was be the lookout list, BOLO, which was discontinued 2012  dont think thats true anymore  according the report.   
 
The criteria the BOLO included whether Tea Party Patriots 9/12 Project was referenced the case file; whether the issues outlined the application included government spending, government debt taxes; whether there was advocating lobbying to, quote, Make America better place live, unquote; whether statement the case file criticized how the country being run; and whether advocated education about the U.S. Constitution and the Bill Rights.   
 
And how bad was the suppression that came from this targeting the groups promoting these patriotic activities?  The suppression was epic.  Over the course months, not single tea party type organization received tax exempt status.  And Im not aware any one receiving status since the scandals been disclosed.  And this was political witch-hunt, says the IRS, the face all evidence the contrary.   
 
And was not simply matter lengthy bureaucratic delays.  Conservative groups were subjected unprecedented amount scrutiny, draining both time and 
resources. waiting the bureaucracy was bad enough, but you couldnt things until you got approval from the bureaucracy.   
 
And top the tea party assault, weve learned that conservative groups and activists were audited.  Weve also learned that the IRS disclosed, contrary law, confidential taxpayer information opponents conservatives and Obama supporters, usually one and the same.   
 
And what was the purpose this all-out assault?  Was simply case retribution against enemies?  No.  This much bigger than political payback.  This was systematic and concerted effort squash the tea party movement, the most organic and powerful political movement recent memory during election season.  This was about campaign politics.   
 
This scandal for the ages.  Reports are that nearly 500 groups were targeted.  The Obama IRS jihad against conservatives had the effect suppressing the First Amendment protected activity, virtually the entire tea party movement, Obama was seeking reelection. you want know how election stolen plain sight, this how.   
 
Why believe that Obama knew exactly what his Internal Revenue Service was besides being the news for the last two years?  Because the record Stephen Miller, the man Obama first hired and now pretended have fired active commissioner the IRS.   
 
Make mistake about it.  When Obama appointed Miller head the IRS, the president should have known what was getting.  Before becoming acting commissioner, ran  Miller did  the tax exempting government entities division the IRS, where, according the IRSs own bio him, Steve oversaw the administration tax law related employee plans tax exempt organizations and various government entities.  Perhaps the description should have  accurately should have read, oversaw and undermined the administration tax law. Judicial Watch, know this well because very early on, were one the many conservative organizations, and Clinton critics the time, that Millers tax exempt branch subjected politically inspired audits.  And when Judicial Watch complained about the audit and the cover-up about its political nature, IRS official told us, for instance, what you expect when you sue the president? were also told, when you scrutinize the government, the government going scrutinize you, you know.   
 
And Miller was one the IRS officials who oversaw the invasive audit Judicial Watch; his organization oversaw the invasive audits other conservatives and critics Bill Clinton, including the women critics who were alleging assault and other things against him.  And admitted that the stonewalling created least the appearance problem, yet Miller, every time complained about the audit, Millers bureaucrats expanded its scope until covered seven years worth records. now, find that Miller, despite the record being top official partly responsible for the last wave IRS abuse during the Clinton years, was rewarded Barack Obama with the top position the IRS.  And given our well-publicized experience with him, surprise that Miller was content allow this illegal IRS harassment Obamas hit list and the subsequent cover-up.   
 
Now, these IRS abuses are one more example how the Obama administration off the rails and out control. help put this government back the rails one the reasons for our panel today. will cover all the bases and hear firsthand from the victims the Obama IRS and learn about the legal and congressional response this ongoing scandal.   
 
Joining immediate right Jenny Beth Martin, who the Tea Party Patriots national coordinator.  She holds degrees from Reinhardt College and the University Georgia.  She resides Georgia with her husband, Lee, and their three children.  And she was recently named number Time magazines 100 most influential leaders the world. immediate left Congresswoman Jim Jordan, Republican from Ohio, who was raised Ohio, went school the University Wisconsin, where two-time college wrestling champion. earned masters degree education  dont know how you sat through masters program education these days, but good for you  from the Ohio State University, and law degree from Capital University Columbus, Ohio.  More importantly, sits the House Oversight Committee investigating this.  And also sits the Judiciary Committee and thats where articles, impeachments will considered.  Im not  just saying that matter fact. 
 
Cleta Mitchell, far left, partner the Washington, D.C., office Foley Lardner and member the firms political law practice with more than years  you dont like you have years experience  
 
CLETA MITCHELL:  Its true. 
 
MR. FITTON:   law politics and public policy.  Cleta advises non-profit and (issue organizations, corporations, candidates campaigns and individuals state and federal campaign finance law and whole host other matters related conservative public policy and activism.  She the go-to lawyer for much the conservative movement these types issues.  And shes taken the lead the legal response not only the IRS scandal but helping many the tea party groups navigate the IRS over the last few years. 
 
And last but not least someone else out there the front lines, specifically the front lines defending traditional marriage the ballot box and the courts Brian Brown.  Brian co-founded the National Organization for Marriage 2007 and has served its president since 2010.  And has hair-raising story and discussion tell you 
about with respect his organizations run-ins with the IRS.  And want get  you should remind me, Brian, ask you about what you think going happen the Supreme Court, what next.  
 
But lets start off.  Congressman, Ill defer you first since know you have schedule that may require you jump out.  But turn over you.  Were going start the end with the congressional investigations, where theyre going, and your perspective general. 
 
REPRESENTATIVE JIM JORDAN (R-OH):  Thank you.  Yeah.  Thank you.  Thank you for the work your organization and the panel. mean, Brian, Jenny Beth and Cleta have been just doing the Lords work. appreciate that.  Ill brief.  And theres couple quick points.   
 
First, the goal get the truth.  Sometimes that takes while.  When you investigation, youve got bring people in, depose and the interviews, and takes while. remind everyone took eight months get breakthrough the Benghazi story before Greg Hicks could come forward and tell his story such compelling way that did. its going take some time, but are committed getting there.  There  colleague has said, theres statute limitations the truth.  Lets get there. couple key points.  Never ever forget this the same entity charged with enforcing Obamacare. think about the entity charged with enforcing Obamacare was systematically targeting groups who came into existence because they opposed Obamacare, and the targeting started the very month, March 2010, the very month Obamacare became law.  The link strong and thats why have think keep that focus, this Obamacare and the expansion government, and then, therefore, the limits freedom that will involve central this story.   
 
Second, not only did the FBI director not know who was heading the case questioning front the committee last week and couldnt tell who the investigative team was and who the members that team were; they also took  knowledge, theres been evidence suggest  and Cleta would know this better and out panelists  but theres been evidence suggest the FBI has even talked victim groups now since theyve started the investigation.  The investigation over month long, the criminal investigation the Justice Department.  They didnt even talk  one the first things you obviously talk victims when theres alleged crime thats taken place.  And theyve yet that.   
 
But what know, based what people have said publicly, and, again, Cleta, who has done such great work will  think can talk this better  but what know that the FBI did pay groups visit when they were applying for tax exempt status not only were they being harassed the IRS; they got friendly visit from the local FBI agent, you know, months and months ago when they were applying for  maybe some 
cases years ago, when they were applying for tax exempt status. thats not chilling, thats not scary, dont know what is.   
 
Finally, two quick points.  And Tom referenced this his opening comments.  The fact that the inspector  you saw the hearing few weeks ago had the Oversight Committee, the fact the inspector general, May 2012, shared some his initial findings with Doug Shulman, and told Mr. Shulman that these three identifying terms, Tea Party Patriots and 9/12, were used develop list groups who were targeted and harassed the IRS, shared that information with Doug Shulman.  Four days later, shared that with Chris Meade, the general counsel Treasury, but didnt share with the Republican House Representatives; didnt share with the Oversight Committee, even though were the committee who has jurisdiction over all the inspector generals, even though were the committee, Chairman Issa and myself, who asked for the audit initially, didnt share that information with us.   
 
Thats pretty important point, particularly six months before major election that shared the information with the Democrat administration; didnt share with the Republican legislative branch who would ask for the audit itself.  Thats information, frankly, would have liked have known six months prior election, and didnt get that information.   
 
And, finally, the last thing Ill say this.  Viewed context the key.  Just take the last four months. the last four months  always back  start with the example Senator Paul standing the Senate floor asking simple yet profound question: can the United States government kill American citizen American soil with drone?  And this administration couldnt answer the question for hours.   
 
And then you next the fact that weve discovered the hearing Benghazi this administration confirmed what all suspected, the video had nothing with what took place.  Then you the fact that Kathleen Sebelius talking insurance companies and hospitals and asking them contributes she starts roll out this Obamacare legislation.   
 
Then you the story; then you the James Rosen, Sharyl Attkissons stories; and then you get this NSA story just from the last two weeks; and then the IRS story.   
 
And when you view all context, thats what scares Americans, and, frankly, appropriately so.  And thats why were here and thats why its important, said the outset, get the truth.  And the members, the Republican members Congress and think some Democrat members Congress are committed  theyve said publicly least theyre committed getting the truth well.  And thats what were trying do.   
 
MR. FITTON:  Thank you, Congressman.  Thank you very much.  Jenny Beth. 
 
JENNY BETH MARTIN:  Thank you for having here, Tom.  And thank you, Congressman Jordan, for the work that youre doing the investigation. appreciate it.  And appreciate all the congressmen and the senators around the country who are working get the bottom this.   
 
Tea Party Patriots was asked  applied for tax exempt non-profit status for 501(c)3 and 501(c)4 December 2010. this day, the IRS has still not given definitive answer the final determination either those two organizations. are (c)4. act (c)4, saying were (c)4, and file (c)4. (c)4s, you are able that and continue operate one, but its good have that final paperwork.  And dont have it.   
 
With (c)3, its  without having the final paperwork, its very hard for people want donate you because (c)3 donation tax free donation individual donates you, (c)3, (c)3s, like the Red Cross, you want know that its going  youre writing off your taxes, its actually something you can write off.  And without that determination, were unable collect  raise money this point. received letter, like many other organizations, from the IRS, early 2012. had questions such as, name every person legislative bodies that youve communicated with have encouraged action for any  they wanted copies all written communication with those members legislative bodies. did not give any our written communication. was looking back through some the paperwork just this past week and realized that, last year, just said just list every member the Senate and the House and say thats who were watching because that who were watching.  Were Tea Party Patriots.   
 
But far personal written communications, did not give that.  They asked for all our Facebook information, our Twitter information, all the comments that were made any our Facebook pages. while maybe they want see what were calling for, the actions that were calling for fall within the (c)4 status, the comments that are written our page, its public page you comment it, its available the public.  But they wanted all this printed out. have over million fans now Facebook.  Printing out that much material  its huge burden.  And also people who dont like us, just you know, they still wanted know what you were saying well.   
 
Theyve asked for some groups donors.  Theyve asked  they asked for group called American Patriots against Government Excess Ohio.  They asked this group for all the books that they read their book club meeting and summary book report each those books.  Now, when was the last time you were demanded write book report the government? year olds, who are  10-year-old twins school, they have that but adults normally dont need that.   
 
Yesterday, our rally, had retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Morelan (ph) speak.  The group founded Albuquerque was put lot scrutiny the IRS.  Not only retired lieutenant colonel; West Point grad;  was the Army cavalry. flew helicopters. currently surgeon with the and founded this group volunteer work hold the government accountable.  And was asked all these questions.   
 
You heard, many the people testified before Congress two weeks ago, lot these groups, the most money that they raised any one year was less than $10,000. not this  these are volunteer organizations, and, especially around the country, these are groups who are trying have their tax status theyre set legal corporation that they can and rent room building and get the proper insurance that they can hold meetings and assemble.   
 
These are not groups who are trying evade taxes.  Theyre not groups who are trying raise money and profit.  They are truly people around this country who are concerned about their government, want get together with people who are concerned about it, petition their government for redress grievances, speak their mind without being concerned that theyre being asked  the comments that they make dont agree with the current administration and for this were targeted.   
 
And were still being strung along the IRS.  And contrary Congressman Cummings claims two weeks ago, this not solved. one has been terminated. resignation employee who was already going resign does not count any sort accountability whatsoever.  Paid leave does not solve the problem.   
 
And, frankly, this point, dont trust that fourth taxpayer bill rights going anything help us.  There have already been three taxpayer bill rights that have passed since the 1980s.  And all three these so-called taxpayer bill rights did nothing protect the bill rights. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Amen.  Thank you, Jenny Beth.  There are two seats available front theres anyone the back who wants sit down.  And next Brian Brown the National Organization for Marriage.  Tell  tell what happened you and what youre doing about it. 
 
BRIAN BROWN:  Well,  when this all started with us, thought were alone. theres any good thats come out this, has been that weve realized that there are other folks like that are willing stand and stand for our civil rights, because make mistake, this basic civil rights issue. you back the NAACP case Alabama, the state wanted their donors and membership lists.  And they won that case because what the government was attempting was intimidate them, harass them, rob them their First Amendment right, the freedom association and speech, hurt them.   
 
And for us, this goes back March 2012, when organization that opposes our position defending traditional marriage, the Human Rights Campaign, the so-called human rights campaign, took our donor list.  And, you may aware, the IRS asks for some your largest donors.  You send them those donors your 990, but then its redacted and does not become public.   
 
And and behold, wake one morning, and have folks calling saying, all your donors from 2008 that are your 990 are the Human Rights Campaigns website. said, what? was hard believe.  And one the donors that was listed happened Governor Mitt Romney, who supported our effort California.  And they thought that this was big deal.  Well, actually, Governor Romneys name had already been public because donated one our campaigns California, more political campaign, where had make his name public.  That wasnt the target.  The target was everyone else that list.   
 
And just like the Human Rights Campaign, whether youre any side the issue, were  both groups are protected.  And those donors that give 501(c)4 are not made public.  The rules have the same for everyone. did little research and looked what the HRC had posted that also went AOL. went all over the web. was posted all over the place.  And noticed something.   
 
Someone had attempted hide markings that document.  And had someone that was specialist forensics, computer forensics. looked this, and, actually, pretty easily, uncovered the layer that they had put over these identifying markings.  And and behold, what were the markings?  There were markings had never seen before and submit our 990s.  They came directly from the IRS.  There was SMIPS code that says SMIPS, and then there was code that the IRS the only group that has this. dont have it. was very clear that this came directly from the IRS.   
 
And understand this.  You know, this was one the articles impeachment for Richard Nixon.  This was felony  created felony 1976.  Its criminal felony punishable five years prison for anyone take our private tax information and make public. immediately tried scream from the mountain tops what had happened.  And, honest, the time, think number people didnt believe us.  They didnt believe us.  And there was not widespread coverage. will guarantee you. this had happened the other side, would have been much different reaction.   
 
But kept fighting.  And went the IRS. went the inspector Treasury Generals Office. filed complaints.  And, you know what?  This all took ton time and effort and money.  And, finally, actually were questioned from some folks from TIGTA.   
 
And what happened after that was nothing, nothing. had repeated FOIA, Freedom Information Act, requests TIGTA find out whether anything had happened, whether anything had been found out, and nothing. fact, the most recent response from the Treasury Inspector Generals Office that the same law that protects our 990, our 990 from being publicly disclosed also protects the identity the person who disclosed it.  This insane. you can commit felony and one gets know about it? one punished?  And dont get learn who did this?  This complete and total political intimidation. completely unacceptable.   
 
And will tell you has not stopped. formed group, Cleta and number folks, fight for the civil rights conservative groups and individuals who are targeted this way, whether its campaign finance issues like the IRS.  And guess what?  That group has not received its 501(c)3 501(c)4 letter. 
 
MS. MARTIN (?): three. 
 
MR. BROWN: three letter.  Im sorry.  The 501(c)3 letter, also havent received for another group. this day  and its been over  dont know, months now. still have not  continuing.   
 
And now, the precedent being set the IRS, were now finding that states like California are requesting the unredacted 990. dont know what law gives the state California the right get that information, but Ill tell you this.  Were not going give them because the government has not shown itself able protect our folks.   
 
Why this important us?  Well, first all, have the rule law thats stake.  You cannot treat one organization differently.  And where the ACLU?  Where the ACLU? dont care its liberal group conservative group, dont care.  But you really believe civil rights and civil liberties, the ACLU should the first jumping this, because this goes our most core freedom, our First Amendment Freedom.  And Ive heard nothing from them. now, states like California are asking for our donor lists.  And, saw, and anyone can read Heritage Foundation did piece this, The Price Proposition Eight.  Why are concerned about also?  Because opponents our position want attempt target, intimidate and harass donors traditional marriage.   
 
Now, many them are not going succumb that, but after Prop Eight, where had disclose donors because was political campaign pass ballot measure protect marriage  California, you have disclose the donors  saw donors who give $100 having folks try and harass them their place employment. waitress who gave $100, trying attack her; saw people being left message, death threats, other things.  This not acceptable the United States America. cannot allow this on.   
 
And, again, dont care what, frankly, the view point the difference the organization is. cannot have our government systematically attacking and trying repress points view that doesnt agree with.  This cannot happen this country.  And happening, and its continuing happen, and nothings been fixed. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Thank you, Brian.  You know, its clear that, Cleta, that the IRS isnt going able fix itself and that leads nicely into both what you witnessed representative the victims and what youre pursuing now court try get redress for the wrongs. 
 
MS. MITCHELL:  Well, thank you. hardly know how even this some limited period time, but let try.   
 
What daily basis, always say  you know, people ask what do. say, well, Im the consigliore the vast right wing conspiracy.  And practice law the area  help candidates and organizations and entities who are conservative Republican candidates.   
 
And have people come see me, and they say, would like involved the policy political process, and heres what wed like do.  And tell them, OK.  Based what you want do, this how you have structure yourself.   
 
Now, dont care what you want this country.  You want start business; you want anything, the first thing you have do, you cannot open bank account America  now, mean, youre going operate underground the black market the illegal economy, thats just not what do. dont deal with this. Im assuming that youre going anything the and up, thats legal, the first thing you have you have tell the IRS what you are.  All have Social Security numbers. you dont have Social Security number, then you have  for artificial entity, like corporation LLC whatever, you have tell the IRS what type artificial entity you are.  Thats the first thing you have do.  And then you get employer number.  And everybody has number the IRS. when these people want gather together, they are entitled under the First Amendment, associate with one another for the purpose either influencing policy politics something, which what help them with, say, what you want do, this the  this the box check for you.   
 
Before January 2010, what would  brought copy the application for (c)4 status. pages.  There are probably couple hundred questions.  You have provide lot documents about what youre going  you have tell the IRS what youre going do.   
 
Thats one thing should stop. not believe that anybody should have the government and ask permission say, this what are. youre going LLC sub-chapter corporation, you dont have ask permission.  You just tell the IRS thats what you are.  And think the first thing have get rid this mother, may I the government.  Thats what started this.  And weve got get rid it.  Thats one remedy.  
 
But what began happen January 2010 that not only did they start  mean, they would usually ask you few questions about your form your articles incorporation whatever.  And the processing time was anywhere from month days for 501(c)4, maximum. began realize the spring 2010  had client who applied for (c)4 status October the 9th 2009.  They still not have their letter determination exempt status. have other clients who applied 2009, 2010, 2011; still letters exempt status from the IRS.   
 
And began this  you know, this correspondence. actually would tell these agents  Im third agent with this one client.  That organization was never  Ive never dealt with anyone from Cincinnati for that client.  Ive been dealing with the Washington, D.C., office since day one. think when get the bottom this, were going find that that was one the very first organizations that was singled out.   
 
Guess what that organization did: lobbied against Obamacare.  Thats all did. the fall 2009  remember that was when Scott Brown was elected.  They werent involved with that, but they were  remember, that was the time when this  when Obamacare was before the Congress.  And they were raising money, and running ads, and telling people call their congressman vote against Obamacare, the fall 2009 through the early part 2010.  Remember, Obamacare passed March 2010.   
 
Thats what that group did.  Thats all they did.  They still dont have their letter exempt status.  And, course, has affected the organization.  They kind wound down, put kind hold.   
 
The other big thing they did, they voter  they guides about Congress.  One the terms that was BOLO term was, unfortunately, one their terms, hold public officials accountable.  Well, who knew that that would get you with big target your face you said you want hold public officials accountable?  They score cards conservative issues about members Congress.  They lobbied for extension the Bush tax cuts.   
 
So, mean, have had correspondence  Im third agent.  Ive had lot conversations about that one client with the IRS, Washington.  And, you know, Ive told them, said, you know, Ive started calling you guys parole officer because check with you once month, but doesnt any  was told three weeks ago, you will have your letter two weeks. was told that three weeks ago. point Brians point very, very important.  This isnt the past tense.  This still ongoing.  And utter lawlessness what is.  there was process duly promulgated forms, everybody filled out the same forms, everybody submitted the same process.   
 
What they created internally within the IRS was complete abdication the rule law, created all these additional questions that they made up; they have objective standards.  There are legal standards which judge the responses.  And, you know, theyve asked for things, Jenny Beth described, where you had submit hundreds and hundreds pages documents.  Only the federal government, Steve Miller claimed, would that considered done for efficiency.   
 
But when Lois Lerner issued her letter May the 10th, was outraged because knew that Jim Jordan, year ago March, had asked the IRS commissioner, public testimony before the Congress, are you targeting conservative groups, because had seen the letters; other members Congress had seen the letters that went out hundreds and hundreds tea party groups and conservative groups year ago, February, March.  And Doug Shulman, the commissioner the IRS sat there and told the Congress there targeting. knew that wasnt true, but what are you going when the commissioner says no?  These congressmen asked for TIGTA investigation.   
 
They knew  they have admitted they knew May 2012 that the testimony given the IRS commissioner the peoples elected representatives barely six weeks before was false.  Ask Roger Clemens what happens you when you lie Congress.  Why not indicted?  Why Stephen Miller not indicted?  But, course, the FBI would have investigate.   
 
But when say  wrote letter the same day Lois Lerner set out that ham-handed, quote, apology, wrote letter that day and said, not issue apology.  Issue clients letters determination exempt status.  Your apology worthless. want our letters. can  can tell you whats the reasons why you need those letters.   
 
But the bottom line have now, through Act Right Legal Foundation, which the organization that Brian described, which conservative public interest law firm, have filed suit behalf True the Vote, which applied for its final 501(c)3 status July 2010; still doesnt have it.   
 
And filed suit federal district court Washington, D.C., which youre required do, because are seeking  theres provision under the law, you havent gotten your (c)3 status after 270 days, then you can court Washington and sue ask the court issue your letter exempt status.  That not available 501(c)4.  The only remedy  see, all the tea party groups would have been lot better off they just denied it.  Then you can court and challenge it.  But were legal limbo with 501(c)4s. have filed suit.  Were getting ready file suit behalf the National Organization for Marriage for the unlawful release its confidential donor information, which know came from within the IRS.  And Brians point here really well worth understanding.   
 
What the  theres statute that was passed after Watergate that protects taxpayers from the unlawful release their confidential information.  The IRS using that statute keep from having tell the taxpayer what theyve been doing with the taxpayers information.  They have taken 6103 the tax code and turned completely upside down.   
 
And look  mean, there much that have do.  Theres much that Congress has do.  There much that have do, citizens, through the litigation.  You know, one the things worry about the fact that the federal government  its hard see the federal government and they fight with our money.  And going take some resources able fight back and get the bottom this story.   
 
But there lawlessness which has become pervasive this government. why Im conservative, because decided some years ago that government big enough take care all big enough destroy any one us, anytime decides that.  And think the American people kind know that.   
 
And some the stories that Jenny Beth receiving  shes the mother hen the entire tea party conservative movement.  And the stories that are coming Jenny Beth are hair curling.  And the abuses, the arrogance these IRS agents, not just the conservatives but believe me, you have any political activity, think should stop having disclose the IRS our donors because the liberals use that  they dont want transparency.  They want target list.  And they are bullies.  They are bullies.  And they are bullying the American people.  They bully conservatives.  And are not going stop until stop it.  Thank you. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Amen.  Well done.  (Applause.)  You know, and Obama responsible for this.  Hes responsible being president the United States.  And disclosed earlier, the IRS works for him and hes responsible.   
 
And question for accountability here, when the president the United States, agency answerable the president the United States suppresses entire political movement way that has the effect, intended otherwise  think was intended  help him stay office, you have remember what the election turned 2012, less than 500,000 votes, and think thats generous number, between Ohio and Florida. had gone few hundred thousand votes the other way, wed have different president.   
 
And know from experience talking entities that werent involved elections per se, but know  and you know this, Jenny Beth, and Cleta, and Brian, that 
these organizations were not active, either active all severely restricted their activities result this IRS pressure. far Im concerned, theres asterisk this mans reelection.  And the head our government, the head our executive branch, responsible.  And know people talk about impeachment.  You know, think were beyond that. different circumstances, different governments, the governments Western democracies and republics, someone responsible for this would resign. know politically hes not going that.  But thats how severe issue is. would cause the resignation more honorable officials. with that being said, what next, Congressman, terms congressional investigation? 
 
REP. JORDAN:  You just keep the pressure on.  Again, think about what weve learned just the  whats been now?  Six weeks. 
 
MS. MITCHELL:  May 10th. 
 
REP. JORDAN:  May 10th the story.  Since Lois Lerner went that event and had the question  weve learned that the question was planted, where she revealed it. learned that the two rogue agents explanation not true.  Weve learned that the  Mr. Shulman went the White House 157 times.  Weve learned that the FBI doesnt know whos heading the case.   
 
The director the FBI didnt know who was heading the case.  Theres evidence that they visited any the victims groups, but know they did pay people visit, said earlier, when they were applying for tax exempt status. still  know that groups who had exempt status applications in, still pending, still havent got the notice.  And have learned that confidential information was fact released. weve learned all these facts weve started  youve just got keep going.   
 
Two weeks ago, sent letter requesting interviews for different folks the IRS, some Cincinnati, some Washington.  And well continue get the bottom it.  The commitment strong from our side get the truth.  And thats what were all about. hearings will continue.   
 
But you cant get that evidence  and know  want fast  want get this  get remedy and hold people accountable quickly possible.  But you cant until you bring people and talk them.   
 
And, remember, the inspector generals report, what Tom talking about not only were conservative groups this kind limbo  legal limbo status because  and that maybe prevented from doing much they want.  They didnt know that they  they didnt know they were officially being targeted, talk about motivating factor election.  That would have been huge.  And yet, the inspector general didnt share that information. also have learned that the inspector general, when doing the audit, had Holly Paz, who was central this whole scandal, she sat almost every single interview did. when youre trying get the truth  mean, Cleta knows this  you dont have the boss sitting with the person youre asking questions.  You those kind things separate when youre trying get the truth.  They didnt that. weve learned those kind things some the depositions and the hearings.  Weve just got keep going. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Well, you know  remember, the IRS began this process, looks like me, initially talking about targeting individual donors so-called (c)4s. put context, the left obsessed with these (c)4s because they want suppress political speech that they dont like.  And they were pressuring the IRS reinterpret the law disallow, practically speaking, contributions donors the  (c)4s making the tax bite result such donations onerous prevent them from happening begin with. response outrage that, they backed off.  But didnt know they didnt back off, because what they did was they started doing what the left wanted them do, both the Obama campaign, their allies Congress, and their left wing interest group allies the outside, and started focusing the (c)4s directly. next question  and then were going open the floor  this  were talking about only (c)4s now and application status. also know that (c)3s were audited. also know  and Jenny Beth, you know, and weve been meetings and theres been talk about individuals being audited well. this just the tip the iceberg.  And the degree you all have information share with individuals about how broad this scandal beyond this application exempt  this exemption application process, thought would useful talk about. 
 
REP. JORDAN:  Could  may have run vote just would jump and say one last thing, and Jenny Beth hit this earlier. think this important.   
 
Think about many these groups are just folks who  Jenny Beth talked about the very little amount money they spend (operating each year.  They meet the church basement.  They meet the elementary school.  They meet the VFW hall.  And yet, they were systematically targeted their government.  And, some cases, the FBI paid them visit.   
 
Now, that  me, thats the story that needs told more, that that took place  its one thing for the IRS  and all hate the IRS and what they were doing.  Thats terrible, but for the FBI actually come pay visit some you? mean, the 
FBI comes your door and leaves their card. thats not killing, dont know what is, just because youre exercising your First Amendment rights and group, because youre getting together because you care about the constitution; you dont like Obamacare; and youre meeting the church basement, and the FBI visits you?  That happened America. me, thats the story that  mean, some this starting get out, but thats story that needs told.  These are just regular Americans doing what Americans have been doing forever, and the FBI visits their home. 
 
MR. BROWN:  One thing the (c)3 side, during the campaign North Carolina, the marriage amendment campaign which was victorious  passed marriage amendment North Carolina percent  were able work with  Billy Graham supported the amendment and ran some ads supporting the marriage amendment defining marriage the union man and woman. and behold, month later, two letters arrive, two different organizations, Samaritans Purse, which you may have heard of, Sean Hannity supports, and also the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.  Theyre two different groups.  Franklin Graham involved with both but two different groups the IRS decides its going audit.   
 
There are too many examples like this for just random coincidence.  Why would both those groups subject audit?  Did they find anything?  No.  But, you know, Franklin Graham has spoken about this even with  you know, relatively large organizations trying great good, took ton their staff time, ton money try and get through both this. heres (c)3 thats subject audit and happens right after they what theyre allowed and take position the marriage amendment.  Thats just one example. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Congressman  just before you go, Jenny Beth, want say thank you Congressman Jordan. know you want leave. dont want make awkward for you leave the middle presentation.  But thank you for your help and support here. 
 
REP. JORDAN:  Thank you. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Thank you very much.  (Applause.)  Jenny Beth, please. 
 
MS. MARTIN:  One person  did not have personal audit, but was targeted the IRS name these questions.  There was person from Ohio named Justin Binik-Thomas and  and one the questions that the IRS sent last year the forms  the letters that they sent asking for all these additional questions, they sent Liberty Township Tea Party group Ohio questionnaire, the letter asking who Justin Binik-Thomas and how associated with your group?   
 
Well, the time, Justin was not even associated with that group and had  actually, the IRS (knew they were associated. hadnt even done anything for that group.  And its the only place where his name came up.  And this day, still doesnt know why they asked about him personally.   
 
And its the same provision  Im sure that both you have mentioned  and that that the IRS says, well, cant tell you because that would  they cant tell him about because violates somebody elses privacy cant find out who asked about him, why they asked about him, and why his name was ever  how his name ever came into the IRSs radar because would violate somebody elses privacy.  But they were violating his privacy ask about him.   
 
Theres George Brunemann, who also from Ohio. was personally audited.  And his wife treasurer their local tea party group.  They went through personal audit.   
 
There are  there person Texas who  dont  Im not sure Im liberty give their name not wont,  air the safe side, but the IRS showed for personal audit their house.  And the first point contact for this audit was not phone call letter from the IRS but knock their front door.   
 
And the IRS has the ability seize property, garnish wages, levy bank accounts, and imprison people.  Now, imagine how you would feel IRS agent shows your house and the very first point contact not letter phone call but knock the door.  And this particular group was associated with both Tea Party Patriots this person had done things with both Tea Party Patriots and True the Vote.   
 
And the stories just keep coming.  And, Rachel, whos sitting the back row there, shes support team.  Shes been talking and interviewing lot the people where were getting these stories.  And they just keep coming.   
 
Yesterday, the rally, she had out and talk two three different people the rally who were saying, havent been able get anyone talk yet but believe was target.  Ive spoken person who said, donated online and weeks later, got audit.  Another person who said, made comments online and then was audited, and the questions they were asking were about  tied the comments that had made online. were running these things down.  Its hard tell theres true trend not because theres many people America that, statistically speaking, maybe its just random. were trying get the bottom it.   
 
But this point, know that the IRS has been doing this. knew was going March last year earlier than March last year. know that the IRS commissioner lied before Congress, which made very difficult for people believe 
what were saying about what happened, because you have this person who swears tell the truth and actually lied before Congress. know those things were happening. know that government too big and too powerful.  And the integrity has been severely shattered that now, the IRS cant even conduct business this point, because does, people question, this really legitimate because where stand the political issues the donation that made the Romney campaign the donation made Tea Party Patriots some other organization, simply because made comment online?   
 
Its lawlessness and its very serious problem our country right now because the foundation our government has  shaking right now. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Amen.  And True the Vote  way disclosure, were representing True the Vote and working with them election integrity issues.  Its separate legal matter.  But True the Vote wants election integrity you imagine why the left hates them.   
 
MS. MITCHELL:  Hates them.  Hates them. 
 
MR. FITTON:  The True the Vote story, that not frightening, dont know what would be.   
 
MS. MITCHELL:  Well, Ive always said  Ill tell you just briefly.  Brian and did panel CPAC March this year called The Bullying the Left.  And what Ive said, what realized over the last couple years, you really want get the loony left  and that very expansive group that starts the White House and includes many members Congress  you want get them really exercised, then you get involved one two issues: marriage, traditional marriage, supporting and defending traditional marriage election integrity. happen work with people who both. Ive seen really close and personal, but the kind treatment that Catherine Engelbrecht, her family and her family business has endured because she had the temerity want get involved training citizens, recruiting and training citizens poll watchers, involved watching the election process, which, the way, taxpayers pay for people other countries monitor elections, exactly what True the Vote trying this country, and are supporting through two different agencies sending citizens monitor elections other countries.   
 
And thats really all that Catherine Engelbrecht and True the Vote has tried do, make sure that the election officials are following the law. Tom knows, Judicial Watch has been very involved in, you know, sending letters election administrators saying, you have more registered voters your jurisdiction than you have adults eligible register vote.  You need clean your rolls.  Very, very controversial stuff, right?   
 
Catherine Engelbrecht, after she founded King Street Patriots 2009, Houston, Texas, and they met once week, they would have people come  you know how they funded their organization?  They passed cowboy boot.  Thats how they funded themselves with just donations people would put into the cowboy boot went around. Texas.  And then they started separate offshoot, which this 501(c)3 True the Vote.  Neither them have their (c)3 their (c)4 status yet.   
 
And, Catherine Engelbrecht, after she filed for her  applications for exempt status for these two groups, she was visited the FBI multiple occasions, asking, well, who comes your meetings?  What you talk about there?  Can come? want monitor your meetings.   
 
She had surprise visit from the Bureau Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms her family company.  She and her husband have had small manufacturing company for years.  They have license manufacture certain kind firearm.  Theyve never actually utilized it.  Theyve never manufactured that.  Theyve had not one but two visits from the Bureau Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.  
 
Theyve been visited OSHA.  And the OSHA inspector who came said, dont know why were here. were just told come here. want know who told them come there.   
 
They have had two different  theyve had their personal tax returns audited, their company audited.  And, Jenny Beth described, the IRS agent showed up.  They went out their home.  They counted the head cattle that they had mentioned about their farm. mean, this  and know another group that just learned about two weeks ago, from Florida, where they started 9/12 group.  They applied for tax exempt status.  And one the leaders got local small video company prepare video that they posted the website. dont know what the video was about, but its something about  you know, support their 912 organization.  The FBI visited them twice, not once twice.  They wanted come into their offices and look around.  And the first time, the landlord said no.  The next time, let them in.  People are afraid the FBI.  And the small video company that did the video that was posted online, IRS audit. can say this all coincidental.  Jenny Beth has sent two stories just the last hours that are just hair curling about things that the IRS has done people. 
 
MS. MARTIN:  One has just happened the last month.  
 
MS. MITCHELL:  The thing   
 
MS. MARTIN:  Not stopping. 
 
MS. MITCHELL:  And, you know, and the IRS agent comes  they are Indiana and they had supported Mitch Daniels.  They have picture Mitch Daniels who had visited their business, their restaurant.  And the IRS agent says, why you have picture Mitch Daniels your wall?  Well, hes the governor.  You want say them, why you have picture Obama hanging your wall the IRS?  Because hes the president, right? mean, the presidents picture hanging their wall.   
 
But its the audit division.  Its not just the exempt organizations division.  Its the audit division.  Its all it.  And actually think that rotten that can never reclaimed. dont think that this  you know, Im really old, and there used this magazine called Red Book, and they had column every month called Can this Marriage Saved?  (Laughter.) heres the question: can this agency saved?  And answer no. cannot.  People, its too big.  Its too powerful. has instilled fear every American.  Were Americans. should not afraid our government.  But right now, would say, afraid, very, very afraid.   
 
And Ive had these people write and say me, youre brave.  Isnt that terrible that people will say youre brave just because youre standing for our constitution? mean, all these people  Im sure Brian gets that, Jenny Beth gets that, Tom gets that, youre brave.   
 
Theres something wrong, people, and rotten the core.  And when agency this big and this powerful, and when you run deficits the size these deficits that they feel empowered and basically take much money they can finance these deficits, all fits together.  These are not separate.  Its all the same.  Its continuum. would tell you, you should read Eliana Johnson National Review.  Shes doing wonderful work.  And you should  National Review online.  You should reading her articles.  She digging, digging, digging.  You should read the Wall Street Journal, Peggy Noonan and Kim Strassel, John McKinnon, the reporters the Wall Street Journal are not letting up.  Others may have subsided. hope Im not leaving anybody out.  But they are the ones.  And you want know whats happening and  you know, were going our best try keep people informed about this also. 
 
MR. BROWN:  Tom, can say one  Ill try and brief. dont think that Ive ever talked about this angle this, but think  its bit philosophical, but think that  theres idea that have about why this important that think important convey.   
 
And that  you know, when Tocqueville wrote Democracy America, talked about Americans almost rampant necessity create organizations.  What was unique about America was that Americans would organize.  They would get together.  
They would create, you know, temperance society they would create some sort organization solve problem that they believed it.   
 
And when was pointing what was unique about America contrast Europe was this civic responsiveness, this need create organizations.  And this was the uniqueness.  And then further posited, well, this has  this part the reason why the state not part every Americans life, because these institutions are mediating structures between the state and the individual.   
 
What stake this IRS investigation?  Well, nowadays, its not like then.  When want, Cleta said, when want organize behind cause, whether its social welfare cause, whether its charity, have get letter from the IRS that allows this can open bank account, you said.   
 
Well, you think its just coincidence, why that the one side the organizing, the conservative side happens the one where there are all the stories harassment, intimidation, not being able get your determination letter? what stake exactly what Tocqueville said was the unique and important part what makes America America.  Can organize freely with one another advance causes believe in, without the state coming and trying push make more difficult for those mediating structures what they do?   
 
And think thats something that even folks the left, even liberals that may disagree with our politics can understand whats stake, because the government can this now, administration changes, you know, God forbid that you would have Republican administration doing this the left.  Once the precedent set, can used against any side the aisle.  And thats why everyone should concerned about this. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Well, this reminds how much disliked the Bush administration. remember, you know, during the audit Judicial Watch.  They had made these outrageous demands Judicial Watch.  And sued and fought back aggressively.  And they said, Ill tell you what.  Well wait until the Bush administration audit you.  Well, go, fine.  Maybe will more common sense there.  You know, hadnt sued Bush yet.   
 
And the Bush administration comes in. pour out all the evidence, the IRS officials telling what you expect when you see the president.  Your audit will begin two weeks after the Clinton White House sent missive over the IRS, and the Bush administration said, oh, no. dont care. the audit will continue.  And were audited for seven years not under the Clinton administration but under the Bush administration.   
 
They allowed this Clinton corruption the IRS that everyone knew about, fester and continue unmolested.  And Stephen Miller, pointed out, was one the 
architects, view, what was going the Clinton IRS, elevated during the Bush years.  And then, Obama picked him make him actually IRS commissioner.   
 
So, you know, the question have and think the concern need pressure that the Republicans who now are very much concerned about this really follow through way that impactful opposed just what politicians both parties like when comes corruption, they associate with the other political party complain about way only make political points opposed make structural changes, Cleta suggested and know Jenny Beth strongly supports. that ought one our focuses.   
 
Now, lets open the audience. think have microphone available. have extra one there that well pass around there any quick questions comments.  Are there any questions comments?  Yes, front here.  Well  colleague here will hand you the microphone.  Thank you.  Identify yourself.  Jan Tyler.  And 2006, visited here from Denver, where was just finishing term election commissioner.  And someone suggested  Ive forgotten the guys name  that blog.  And thought, oh, just dont have time that, but did.  And then wrote this National Election Reform Examiner, before Christian Adams and some those people came the scene. dont that now but still follow things. question you this: whats going happen actually?  Congress really does not have enforcement authority. where this going lead us? mean, youve mentioned that you think certain changes should made how these applications for 501(c)3 and are administered. you really have hope for that?  And then, whats going happen the people who actually released your information, both the individuals and the institutions? 
 
MS. MITCHELL:  Well, want able name names. think thats really important.  Thats one the things  and may  want able name manes.  And, hopefully, through discovery the litigation, well able get those names.   
 
Eventually  you know, when you ask about the Congress  you know, think that there should  personally think that what the House should create select committee that consists people from several the committees, because this goes across jurisdictional lines the committees and goes across agency lines.  And think there should select committee with its own staff. dont want special counselor appointed because that person would doubt reporting Eric Holder and the Obama administration.  You know, that gives comfort.   
 
But think that Congress should have select committee, whose job develop this information and then hearings much like the Watergate hearings, where you actually have people testify and disclosing.  Because when the hearings  
when you have these hearings and you get people like Jenny Beth and Brian and others front the American people, thats how educate.   
 
But theres much this, and its not just  say, its not just the exempt organizations, you know.  Its the audit division the IRS.  Its all throughout the agency.  And dont know how you solve unless you just literally  unless Congress willing very bold.  The Republicans need very bold and think they need have bill abolish the IRS and just jerk out the roots and start over.   
 
MR. BROWN:  Well, our case, there are both civil and criminal penalties.  And its critical that get the answers what TIGTA found, because right now, were  you know, were not small some organizations, but were really spending lot money research, find out, get lawyers help us.  And its taken lot work.   
 
But, eventually, think will find out theres going lot more that comes out this.  And its not going two rogue employees, guarantee you that, the way this has played out.   
 
So, that point, theres both civil and criminal penalties. said, its felony punishable five years prison and think $5,000 for each instance releasing this. will filing lawsuit against the IRS because dont  you know, thats what have because what  TIGTA isnt getting the answers need.  Also, the groups that have continued post the names, its  theyre breaking the law, potential civil penalties there. will sue them.   
 
But think the larger question  and the problem that sort get used things.  Ive created lot organizations, and you sort get used that the way is, just the way is, and youre going file what you need do, because were law-abiding citizens. want follow the law. need create political action committee, thats what create. talk Cleta. try and follow the law whatever were going create.   
 
But then, something like this happens and you start sit and think.  And, said, you know, the 1800s, what our founders have had this, and Im sitting and thinking, why earth does the IRS need list our largest donors?  What that serving?  Theyre not making public youre social welfare organization 501(c)3.  Churches dont have that.  The NAACP, because its threats, didnt have that.  Why earth does the IRS have the right that all?  And now, said, states are starting ask for your unredacted 990s they get the name.   
 
And think that Congress has say more.  Theres absolutely reason that the IRS should getting our donor names.  And think that youre going have have people that maybe commit some acts civil disobedience and say that given the track record here releasing our names  and were not alone; the more that this has come out 
 talked group Texas where their donors were put forward.  This happening more often than would ever expect. mean, this should sacrosanct that they would never let this out. dont think that groups may not  should not give them those names until Congress acts and stops them from having the ability take your 990.  That shouldnt happening. think theres lot different  agree. mean, theres the full answer that the IRS shouldnt  the abolish the IRS answer, but think that there are also intermediate steps that have taken solve the problems that were facing right now. 
 
MR. FITTON:  The left doesnt believe these mediating institutions, view.  And, you know, the head non-profit  and, Cleta, know you see this through your legal work, theres myriad  hosts regulations and rules designed suppress the activity independent grassroots organization. you knew what our (donor dollars have order just have operate terms regulatory compliance, you would astonished.  And the left perfectly happy have this activity going on.   
 
The idea that the left nervous about this  no, no, no, no.  And, you know, unleashing these dogs, everyone thinks that the left will worried Republican administration comes and  no, they dont care because they hold the leash matter whos running the offices. 
 
MS. MITCHELL:  Because theyre all union employees.  Theyre union members.  Yeah. 
 
MS. MARTIN:  Well, they dont away.  Theyre there from administration administration.  You abolish the IRS, everyone  anyone who involved this, dont want them working for the government ever again any, any government agency.  Theyve abused their authority.  They turned their position authority into weapon, and they weaponized it, and set their weapon, the sights that weapon citizens this country.  And dont trust them  not any other position. have faith that they will not it. may not for another five years, but these people, they get there and theyre lifetime employees.  And simply  want  want them out  dont want taxpayer dollars paying for someone whos willing abuse their authority this way. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Any other questions comments? the center, Fred.  Yeah.  You mentioned   
 
MR. FITTON:  Fred, could you identify yourself?  Yeah.  Im sorry.  Fred Lucas with CNSNews.com.  You mentioned earlier, talked about President Obama possibly having awareness about this. know has gone the White House doorstep the sense that the White House counsels known 
about it.  How certain are you that the president might seems have some kind information regarding this? 
 
MS. MARTIN: Tea Party Patriots, its why want investigation. dont know  dont know how far goes and who was involved.  And wont speculate who was involved. want investigations. want names. want know why started, who started it, and everyone that was involved.   
 
And its  and outside this one agency, want know who did all the agencies.  And, frankly, want know why the FBI isnt actually reaching out any the victims. theyre actually investigating this, then when asked the tea party groups around the country, theyve all told none them who Ive spoken with have been contacted the FBI for investigation. just  want know whos  wont speculate. want facts prove who and isnt involved.   
 
MS. MITCHELL:  One thing that would say about that. youre read Kim Strassels pieces  shes now written three pieces the Wall Street Journal, which she outlines how  dont  may never find direct conversation between the president and the IRS, although Dough Shulman was the White House  what  157 times.   
 
MR. FITTON:  The IRS Commissioner. 
 
MS. MITCHELL:  IRS commissioner was there.  But what know that the president himself, over and over and over again, has demonized the tea party, has demonized certain donors conservative groups name. know that the White House economic adviser spoke about the tax information, confidential tax information about Koch Industries.  Now, how did know that?  How did know that information? explanation has been given for that.  They have asked  the Koch industries has asked  has FOIA find out about how their confidential tax information made its way the White House economic adviser, who, press call with reporters, talked about it.   
 
And guess what theyve been told.  Theyve been told the same thing NOM has been told: cant give you that information under USC Section 6103 because that information confidential.  Well, theyre protecting the confidentiality who the IRS employees are who violated the taxpayers confidentiality. thats not Orwellian, dont know what is. turns 6103 completely its head.   
 
But think that clearly there were public calls people very close the president, and including the president, mistreat, bully, bad things to, rid these pesky conservatives, these pesky tea party people and anyone who would contribute them. thats been  but, you know  you know, and this lot like Brian, this little bit philosophical, but want you think about the campuses America. want you think about big corporations who are bullied the Human Rights Campaign say you dont you dont support gay marriage, then were going say bad things about you.  You think about everything big America. mean, politically correct, why would expect big government and the people who work think anything bullying and harassing conservatives? see every day every part American life.  That ultimately part the problem that think you have these  these are union employees.  They give all their money the president and his party.  They dont like conservatives.  They talk about that.  Thats just accepted. why are surprised that when they get power that they would use way that negative detrimental people that they think its perfectly appropriate think ill of? just think that thats part our  what were dealing with. 
 
MR. BROWN:  Well, our instance, the co-chair President Obamas reelection campaign was the one who got and made public the donor list.  So, again, does that mean President Obama knew?  No. doesnt necessarily.  But doesnt  doesnt look good.   
 
And, this point, that same group, the Human Rights Campaign, refuses answer any questions where they got the document, when they got the document, how they got the document. this why  agree. have have these answers.  People have subpoenaed.  This felony.   
 
And this point, you know, know Congress having hearings, but the FBI visiting tea party folks, but the FBI not visiting the Human Rights Campaign, which somehow  already know republished confidential tax information, and theyre thinking that its just fine tell reporters, were just not going answer your questions. this point, dont  Im pretty certain that they have not been visited the FBI, that they have not answered any the questions that would get the answers need.  They could pretty much answer it, because theyre the ones who got the document and posted it.  There something wanted ask about because there seems sort pattern with both the FBI not talking the victims, and also the IG, your case, not really following since they talked you that once, that particular time. there sort pattern there terms sort maybe why were watching this? 
 
MR. FITTON: need independent investigations. mean, the FBI will something; well complain, theyll something more.  The Justice Department will something pretend something.  Congress will something.   
 
But you have remember, these  thats political process.  The congressional investigation political process. need independent investigations done entities like  through Cletas lawsuits; were doing Freedom Information Act requests considering more direct lawsuits. need the media this ways that they havent been with Obama scandals.  Thankfully, theres new conservative media out there that can fill the oversight gap there. cannot rely Congress solve this.  And they will get some facts and good information out, know.  But, the end, just remember how this scandal erupted.  Congress was asking questions and they were stonewalled without too much work the Obama administration.  And, frankly, they just stood there happened.  And, you know, Congress will never our protector here.   
 
And have say about the presidential responsibility  have our investigations going into that, but responsible.  Whether not made phone call, runs our federal government. responsible the end.  And, said earlier, the buck stops with him, whether not made phone call.  Even hes completely innocent, managed bureaucracy that did this his political opponents way that  without compare with previous presidential administrations.   
 
The IRS has never been abused this way before, never.  Nixon, Kennedy, Roosevelt. mean, there were targets audits, political audits during all presidencies. understand that, but Im sure there were some leftist groups that were audited over exuberant IRS agent during the Bush years, probably one two.   
 
MS. MITCHELL: never heard about it. would have heard about it. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Yeah.  Well, now, theyre coming out the woodwork after the fact.  But thats almost irrelevant this case because were talking about entire movement, hundreds groups that were targeted.  Theres nothing compare.  And this president responsible whether not told the IRS the audit.   
 
Now, view, Cleta pointed out, and Kim Strassels pointed out the Wall Street Journal, all the IRS have look the skies see what the bat signal was from the White House and his allies the Obama campaign, and the allied interest groups and Congress.  All the dirty work was being done coordinated way.  And guarantee you theres White House involvement here.  Ill bet you nickel that the White House made phone call, and was aware, and had pushed this indirectly directly.  
 
MS. MITCHELL:  Well, dont forget that the case True the Vote, there were the  Elijah Cummings who the ranking Democrat House Oversight Committee, who, week ago, posted entire transcript interview with one the IRS employees, doubt for the purpose giving roadmap the White House and all the other potential witnesses from the IRS what theyre asking they can all get their stories straight.   
 
And Elijah Cummings and his chief staff person organized letter signed whole group Democrats the House that went the IRS requesting that True the Votes tax status denied.  Now, thats direct directive from Congress.  They also  you know, there were group Democratic senators who signed the same letter. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Didnt the Obama campaign complain about True the Vote? 
 
MS. MITCHELL:  Yes. the month before the election, Bob Bauer, who was Obamas general  you know, the campaign general counsel then went over the White House and was White House counsel for period time, then came back out the White House and was again general counsel the campaign, month before the election week before the election did memo about all the  how bad all the Republicans are various things.  And then did whole section attacking True the Vote being engaged voter suppression because they  said, had the temerity want poll watching and election integrity, had pages and pages attacking True the Vote. why are surprised that the IRS was following suit? 
 
MR. FITTON: the president, his personal capacity, his people, representing him personally his campaign were, pressuring organization that was subsequently  that was contemporaneously being audited the IRS, and, Cleta pointed out, audited other government agencies.  These ATF inquiries were audits, were audits. maybe the IRS isnt the only agency that needs considered from the bottom up.  Other questions comments?  Yes.  This Bob Magnuson.  Im retired.  About the Supreme Court decision marriage coming up, there any hope?  And what are the ramifications does pass? 
 
MR. FITTON: wanted ask Bob that anyway. little bit change pace. ahead. 
 
MR. BROWN:  Well, have say  mean, not buy the media spin the inevitability same-sex marriage. mean, for example, two months ago, Illinois, President Obama, Rahm Emanuel, everyone was pushing super majority Democratic legislature pass gay marriage.  And the African-American ministers there were  and there was broad coalition but have give them kudos.  They were able stop the bill putting pressure and working together with African-American Democratic legislators. that same spin that this inevitable, even though the overwhelming majority states have voted protect marriage the union man and woman, most recently North Carolina, also being spun the Supreme Court.   
 
Listen what the lawyers are saying though for the folks who brought the suit against Prop Eight, Ted Olson and David Boies. year ago, they were saying were going win this whole thing.  Were going win it.  Were going have Roe vs. 
Wade marriage.  Theres going gay marriage throughout the whole country. doesnt matter that people voted this.  Were going get the court it.   
 
What are they saying now?  Theyre not saying that now.  Theyre not predicting victory.  Theyre trying lower the bar.  And thats because believe were going  Im cautiously optimistic. think were going win. dont think that Justice Kennedy and the rest the court are going want launch another culture war with the court short-circuiting the democratic process, did Roe.   
 
Remember, the Roe decision, lot people claimed once the Supreme Court stepped in, the debate would over.  Hows that worked out? has not worked out.  And the justices have talked about this.  Again, its hard read tea leaves, but you look some the comments from Kennedy even Kagan about the court injecting itself into the political process, think they bode well for us. think what were going see probably  will next week, Im guessing the 27th well get decision.  And Im hopeful that well win both the Proposition Eight case and the case DOMA.   
 
That wont the end it, but will allow fight another day. will stop Roe vs. Wade marriage and well back the states.  They will almost immediately launch further legal strategy, which will attack DOMA. this  the fight will not away, but will tell you this. win the Supreme Court, will one the biggest victories, and the media will try and downplay it. said, the other side already trying lower the bar.  But this would like the pro-life movement winning Roe. will massive setback for the other side regardless how they try and spin it. thats what think will happen.   
 
MR. FITTON:  All right, Brian.  Thank you.  Jenny Beth, can you  well, first all, everyone here available. want get the Internet sites out.  So, Cleta, where can people find out about the lawsuits? 
 
MS. MITCHELL: have put  Act Right Legal Foundation has put together page called theirslitigationfund.org.  And thats the Act Right Legal Foundation  the ActRightLegalFoundation.org site has page.  And were actually redoing even speak that can have constant updates the  about the  all the various lawsuits.  And were trying make some law that groups like other groups can possibly come and file suit too. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Good.  Brian, where can folks reach you? 
 
MR. BROWN:  NationforMarriage.org.  You can reach  the website NationforMarriage.org, but BBrown@NationforMarriage.org.  Well say one thing. you have any other examples IRS abuse, know there are bunch groups, you can  but send them too because the more information have, the better were 
going be.  And need  and Ill get them the other folks working this issue.  Its amazing how many people are coming and saying theyve been through this.  This not isolated. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Jenny Beth. 
 
MS. MARTIN:  TeaPartyPatriots.org.  And anyones watching online, exactly what said. you know any other government abuse, let know.  Theres place from our website you can report IRS abuse any other government agency abuse. you work for the government and youre aware waste, fraud, abuse, wed like know that well.  Weve had few people anonymously send information for areas should looking and investigating that are related the IRS and other matters. you own gun store are active the Second Amendment, you are pro-life organization and have counseling sessions that maybe the IRS was asking information about, were looking for information about any those well because think this runs far and were trying just figure out whats happened.  And its not issue take up, well get the appropriate group that does take up.   
 
But this  its bad. let know.  And well what can help.  And youre willing forward and you want able get your story out, all that can help those people get their story out well. 
 
MR. FITTON:  Well, you know, thank you.  And, you know, Obama has set many fires the horizon, its often difficult figure out where run to.  And Im sure now that set this fire the horizon, others will set help distract us.   
 
But this real big one.  And, Judicial Watch,  our work uncovering and prosecuting government corruption.  And this about bad gets.  This probably one the top five certainly the 100 Obama scandals.  But this top five terms the last century, point out, terms the history the IRS.  This the worst the IRS has ever been abused any administration, the worst, worse than Nixon. thank you very much for your time, and attention, and participation, and our panel today.  And want comment you follow all the panelists here, including Jim Jordan who  didnt mention this the intro.  Jim Jordan one these congressmen who isnt liked other Republican establishment types because shares our views lot key issues. certainly brave heart well.   
 
But between Cleta, Jenny Beth and Brian, were talking about folks who are the front lines, doing work great personal cost and expense, and often unheralded for the work that they behalf our great nation. want thank them for educating about this ongoing Obama IRS scandal.  Thank you very much.  (Applause.) 
 
(END)



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