51
1 Q Did you later learn at some point
2 about any efforts to have Mr. Marceca
3 detailed to the Office of Personnel Security?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When did you learn about those
6 efforts?
7 A I believe it was in the spring of
8 '93.
9 Q And do you recall how you learned
10 about efforts to have Mr. Marceca detailed to
11 the Office of Personnel Security?
12 A I believe it was a discussion with
13 Craig Livingstone.
14 Q Did Mr. Livingstone tell you why he
15 desired to have Mr. Marceca detailed to the
16 office?
17 A The work load that we had within
18 The White House Personnel Security Office, it
19 was to help ease that.
20 Q Did he tell you specifically
21 anything about what he might have in mind for
22 Mr. Marceca to do were he detailed to the
52
1 Office of Personnel Security?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What did he tell you that?
4 A That he would be working on the
5 SF 86 forms which all employees had to fill
6 out that we had to send to the FBI and
7 possibly other projects that would be coming
8 up.
9 Q Did he mention anything about
10 having Mr. Marceca work on a project known as
11 the update project?
12 A Ultimately, yes.
13 Q When you say "ultimately," did he
14 tell you that during his initial conversation
15 about having Mr. Marceca come to the office?
16 A I don't believe so.
17 Q Do you recall when he told you
18 about the possibility that Mr. Marceca would
19 work on the update project?
20 A I don't remember specifically, but
21 I believe it was probably sometime over this
22 summer.
53
1 Q At the time that Mr. Livingstone
2 mentioned to you the possibility of having
3 Mr. Marceca detailed to the office, did you
4 feel that the office was shorthanded?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
6 Vague and ambiguous.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 BY MR. GARREN:
9 Q Did it make sense to you at that
10 time that what Mr. Livingstone told you he
11 had in mind for Mr. Marceca to do in the
12 office?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
15 foundation. Vague and ambiguous. Leading.
16 Puts forth facts not in evidence.
17 BY MR. GARREN:
18 Q You can answer the question.
19 A Yes.
20 Q Now, at any time did
21 Mr. Livingstone ever suggest to you that he
22 had any type of secret or confidential task
54
1 in mind for Mr. Marceca to perform in the
2 office?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and
4 ambiguous. Leading.
5 BY MR. GARREN:
6 Q You can answer.
7 A No.
8 Q Did Mr. Livingstone ever suggest
9 that Mr. Marceca might be involved in any
10 kind of unlawful or improper activity in the
11 office?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for
13 a legal conclusion. Vague and ambiguous.
14 Leading. Assumes facts not in evidence.
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q At any time did Mr. Livingstone
18 ever suggest to you that Mr. Marceca would be
19 doing anything in the office that you should
20 not be generally aware of or knowledgeable
21 about?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound
55
1 question. Vague and ambiguous. Assumes
2 facts not in evidence.
3 BY MR. GARREN:
4 Q You can answer.
5 A No.
6 Q Now, do you recall the --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: And leading.
8 BY MR. GARREN:
9 Q Do you recall the general dates of
10 Mr. Marceca's detail at the Office of
11 Personnel Security?
12 A I believe either the end of August,
13 beginning of September through, I believe,
14 February of '94.
15 Q And during Mr. Marceca's detail in
16 the office, were you his supervisor?
17 A Generally, but it was basically
18 both -- mostly Craig. Craig would give him
19 direction.
20 Q Well, during Mr. Marceca's detail
21 in the office, were you generally aware of
22 the tasks that he was performing in the
56
1 office?
2 A Yes.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and
4 ambiguous. Leading. Lacks foundation. Move
5 to strike. Is that funny, Mr. Gaffney? Is
6 it necessary to interrupt this deposition
7 with laughter?
8 MR. GARREN: It's not much of an
9 interruption. I think we can move on.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I think it's
11 disrespectful.
12 THE WITNESS: Can we take a break?
13 MR. GARREN: Absolutely.
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going at
15 off video record at 10:23.
16 (Recess)
17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on
18 video record at 10:31.
19 BY MR. GARREN:
20 Q Now, Ms. Anderson, when we broke,
21 we were discussing Mr. Marceca, and I want to
22 go back to discussing Mr. Marceca. During
57
1 Mr. Marceca's detail in the Office of
2 Personnel Security, did you ever sense any
3 effort by him to keep any of his work secret
4 from you?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and
6 ambiguous. Leading. Compound question.
7 BY MR. GARREN:
8 Q You can answer.
9 A No.
10 Q During Mr. Marceca's detail in the
11 office, did you ever sense any effort by
12 Mr. Livingstone to keep Mr. Marceca's work
13 secret from you?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection and
15 adds lacks foundation for the last two
16 questions.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 BY MR. GARREN:
19 Q During Mr. Marceca's work detail in
20 the Office of Personnel Security, did you
21 ever sense any effort by anyone to keep his
22 work secret from you?
58
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 BY MR. GARREN:
4 Q At any time during your tenure with
5 the Office of Personnel Security, did you
6 ever sense that Mr. Livingstone and
7 Mr. Marceca might have any kind of secret
8 agreement or understanding about the nature
9 of Mr. Marceca's work in the office?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 BY MR. GARREN:
13 Q During your work in the office,
14 during your tenure in the Office of Personnel
15 Security, did you ever see or hear anything
16 that suggested to you that Mr. Marceca might
17 be involved in any kind of effort to obtain
18 confidential information on members of prior
19 presidential administrations?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. GARREN:
59
1 Q During your tenure with the Office
2 of Personnel Security, did you ever hear or
3 see anything that suggested to you that
4 Mr. Marceca might be involved in any attempt
5 to misuse the personnel security files held
6 by the Office of Personnel Security?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 BY MR. GARREN:
10 Q At any time, are you aware of
11 Mr. Marceca communicating in any fashion with
12 the First Lady?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Same
14 objection. And leading.
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q Are you aware of Mr. Marceca at any
18 time communicating with Bernard Nussbuam?
19 A No.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and
21 ambiguous. Lacks foundation. Leading.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
60
1 BY MR. GARREN:
2 Q Now let's turn to Mr. Nussbuam
3 briefly. Are you aware of whom Mr. Bernard
4 Nussbuam is?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Are you aware of the position that
7 he held in The White House?
8 A Yes.
9 Q What position was that?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I move to strike the
11 last two questions. Lacks foundation.
12 BY MR. GARREN:
13 Q You can answer the question.
14 A He was counsel to the President.
15 Q Was he counsel to the President
16 during the time that you were employed by the
17 Office of Personnel Security?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Throughout that entire time or just
20 part of the time?
21 A Part --
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
61
1 foundation.
2 THE WITNESS: Part of the time.
3 BY MR. GARREN:
4 Q During the time that you were
5 employed with the Office of Personnel
6 Security and Mr. Nussbuam was employed as the
7 counsel to the President, was Mr. Nussbuam a
8 common presence at the Office of Personnel
9 Security?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and
11 ambiguous. Compound. Leading.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 BY MR. GARREN:
14 Q How often did you see Mr. Nussbuam
15 in the Office of Personnel Security during
16 your tenure in the office?
17 A I never saw him in the office.
18 Q Are you aware of Mr. Nussbuam at
19 any time coming to the office to review any
20 of the files of the office?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
22 foundation. Leading.
62
1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 BY MR. GARREN:
3 Q Are you aware of Mr. Nussbuam ever
4 expressing any interest whatsoever in the
5 update project while it was being performed
6 in the Office of Personnel Security or after?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and
8 ambiguous. Leading. Lacks foundation.
9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 BY MR. GARREN:
11 Q Are you aware of Mr. Nussbuam ever
12 expressing any interest whatsoever in any of
13 the file summaries obtained by the Office of
14 Personnel Security from the FBI in the course
15 of the update project?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
17 foundation. Compound. Leading. Vague and
18 ambiguous.
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 BY MR. GARREN:
21 Q Are you aware of form sheets used
22 by the Office of Personnel Security to
63
1 request background investigation file
2 summaries from the FBI in the course of the
3 update project?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound.
5 Leading. Lacks foundation. Vague and
6 ambiguous.
7 BY MR. GARREN:
8 Q Do you understand the question?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Are you aware of the form sheets I
11 referenced?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Let me show you a document and
14 please review it.
15 Ms. Anderson, can you identify this
16 document?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What is the document?
19 A It's a document requesting a copy
20 of a previous report.
21 Q You note on the second line of the
22 document Mr. Nussbuam's name appears; is that
64
1 correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q To your knowledge, what practice
4 was followed in the Office of Personnel
5 Security to place Mr. Nussbuam's name on this
6 form?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
8 foundation.
9 THE WITNESS: It was general
10 practice to list whoever was the counsel to
11 the President. As in previous
12 administrations. C. Boyden Gray for
13 President Bush was the name that it would say
14 from, and then when Mr. Cutler became
15 counsel, it was his name and then when
16 Mr. Mikva became counsel, it was his name.
17 BY MR. GARREN:
18 Q Did Mr. Nussbuam play any role in
19 placing his name on this form sheet?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
21 foundation. Leading.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
65
1 BY MR. GARREN:
2 Q Were form sheets used like this to
3 request information from the FBI?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Before the forms were sent to the
6 FBI to request the information, were the
7 forms provided to Mr. Nussbuam for his
8 review?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound.
10 Lacks foundation. Leading.
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MR. GARREN: Please mark this as
13 Exhibit No. 1 to the deposition.
14 (Anderson Deposition Exhibit
15 No. 1 was marked for
16 identification.)
17 BY MR. GARREN:
18 Q Now let me ask you to turn your
19 attention to Nancy Gemmell. Do you know who
20 Nancy Gemmell is?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Do you recall working with her in
66
1 the Office of Personnel Security in 1993?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What position did Ms. Gemmell hold
4 with the Office of Personnel Security when
5 you began there in February of '93?
6 A Executive assistant.
7 Q To your knowledge, was Ms. Gemmell
8 a holdover employee from prior presidential
9 administrations?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Are you aware generally of how long
12 she had been with the Office of Personnel
13 Security at the time that you started at the
14 office?
15 A I believe it was 19 years and some
16 odd months.
17 Q Now, in your experience with
18 working with Ms. Gemmell in the Office of
19 Personnel Security did you consider her prior
20 experience in the office to be an asset to
21 the office?
22 A Yes.
67
1 Q Did you consider her to be
2 knowledgeable about the proper rules and
3 procedures in the Office of Personnel
4 Security at the time that you began working
5 there?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
7 foundation. Vague and ambiguous.
8 THE WITNESS: Extremely
9 knowledgeable.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: And leading.
11 BY MR. GARREN:
12 Q Now, during your experience working
13 with Ms. Gemmell in the Office of Personnel
14 Security, was she someone in the office that
15 the staff could go to for guidance and
16 instruction?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
18 Compound.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 BY MR. GARREN:
21 Q Did you often seek guidance from
22 Ms. Gemmell during your employment with the
68
1 Office of Personnel Security?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
3 Vague and ambiguous.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, when I had a
5 question as to what the procedure was.
6 BY MR. GARREN:
7 Q Did you observe other people in the
8 office go to Ms. Gemmell to seek guidance and
9 instruction about how to do their work?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
11 foundation. Leading.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 BY MR. GARREN:
14 Q Is it fair to say that Ms. Gemmell
15 was heavily relied upon by the OPS staff
16 during your tenure there?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
18 foundation. Leading.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, she was the
20 encyclopedia.
21 BY MR. GARREN:
22 Q In your experience with
69
1 Ms. Gemmell, did you find that the advice or
2 instruction that she gave you was generally
3 accurate and helpful?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague and
5 ambiguous. Leading.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Lacks foundation.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 BY MR. GARREN:
10 Q Did Ms. Gemmell assume any kind of
11 training role or position in the office in
12 1993?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
14 foundation. Leading. Vague and ambiguous.
15 Compound.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 BY MR. GARREN:
18 Q Explain what you observed in terms
19 of Ms. Gemmell assuming a training role in
20 the office.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
22 THE WITNESS: What would happen is
70
1 if we had a question we would ask Nancy how
2 does this procedure work, what is this, or if
3 something came into the office that we didn't
4 know what to do with, we would be, like, we
5 don't understand what this request is. Can
6 we grant it? Can we not grant it? Can we do
7 this? Can we do that? And she would either
8 say, yes, no. This is the law. This isn't
9 the law. This is by executive order. This
10 is by national law or congressional mandate
11 or whatever. She knew it inside and out.
12 BY MR. GARREN:
13 Q During the time that you worked
14 with Ms. Gemmell in the Office of Personnel
15 Security, was there anyone in the office or
16 out of the office who you considered more
17 knowledgeable about the rules and procedures
18 of the office?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
20 foundation. Leading.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. GARREN:
71
1 Q If the two of you, that is,
2 Ms. Gemmell and you, had any different
3 memories about the way things previously
4 worked in the Office of Personnel Security,
5 would you tend to defer to her knowledge
6 about the matter?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
8 foundation. Compound. Leading. Vague and
9 ambiguous.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 BY MR. GARREN:
12 Q And why is that?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
14 THE WITNESS: She had been doing it
15 longer and she knew the procedures better.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q During your employment with the
18 Office of Personnel Security, were you aware
19 of Mr. Livingstone taking any action to keep
20 Ms. Gemmell on the staff of the Office of
21 Personnel Security?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
72
1 Lacks foundation. Vague and ambiguous.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 BY MR. GARREN:
4 Q What are you aware of what
5 Mr. Livingstone did with respect to keeping
6 Ms. Gemmell on the staff?
7 A My understanding was that when I
8 started at The White House she was supposed
9 to be as a holdover leaving the office
10 relatively soon, and because no one in the
11 office knew the procedures, knew the law, he
12 fought to keep her on.
13 Q Do you have any knowledge as to why
14 efforts were made to keep her in the office
15 after the Clinton Administration took over?
16 A So that we would have someone to go
17 to if we had questions.
18 Q Now, do you recall approximately
19 how long Ms. Gemmell stayed in the office
20 into the Clinton Administration?
21 A I believe it was until August
22 because she needed those -- that's how long
73
1 she needed to acquire the 20 years or
2 something like that, so she could take early
3 retirement.
4 Q Do you recall whether Ms. Gemmell
5 and Mr. Marceca ever worked in the office at
6 the same time?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
8 foundation. Vague and ambiguous.
9 BY MR. GARREN:
10 Q Let me rephrase it. Do you recall
11 whether Ms. Gemmell retired from the office
12 before Mr. Marceca began his detail?
13 A Before he physically began working
14 in the office?
15 Q Yes.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Do you know approximately how long
18 before Mr. Marceca began working in the
19 office Ms. Gemmell retired?
20 A I believe within a week of her
21 retirement. Exact time period, I'm not sure.
22 Ask me four years ago, I could have told you.
74
1 Q Now, Ms. Anderson, I'd like you to
2 turn your attention to the update project.
3 Do you recall generally what the update
4 project was in the Office of Personnel
5 Security?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Tell me in general terms, as best
8 you can recall, what were the aims of the
9 update project.
10 A From my understanding, it was
11 required either by law or executive order,
12 but I believe it was law that all current
13 administration employees, whether they be
14 holdovers or not, had to have -- we had to
15 maintain a file on those employees. So we
16 would order as an active pass list from
17 Secret Service, and based on that list that's
18 how we would determine who had access and who
19 we needed to retrieve a file on or create a
20 file.
21 Q To your understanding, did update
22 project have to be performed after each
75
1 change of administration?
2 A Yes, because every record that was
3 contained or created during administration
4 becomes a presidential record, and,
5 therefore, it then is archived into the
6 presidential libraries.
7 Q And was it necessary after the
8 files were removed, the security files were
9 removed, to recreate the files on holdover
10 employees?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
12 Compound.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, because we had
14 no files.
15 BY MR. GARREN:
16 Q And why was it important to have
17 the files?
18 A As I previously stated, I think it
19 was mandated by law that we had to have the
20 files.
21 Q Was there any requirement to do a
22 reinvestigation on holdover employees after a
76
1 certain period of time?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
3 Compound.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, by law every
5 person who is employed in the compound had to
6 have a five-year reinvestigation.
7 BY MR. GARREN:
8 Q Was it possible prior to recreating
9 the files to know when holdover employees had
10 had their last investigation?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
12 Compound.
13 THE WITNESS: No. As I had said,
14 those files had already been archived and we
15 had no copies.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q How were the files recreated in the
18 Office of Personnel Security in the course of
19 the update project?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
21 foundation. Compound.
22 THE WITNESS: Again, as stated
77
1 before, we would request an active pass list
2 from the Secret Service.
3 BY MR. GARREN:
4 Q Was any kind of request made to any
5 other agency to obtain the files?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
7 THE WITNESS: The people would be
8 identified by the Secret Service, and then we
9 would have to request the files from the FBI.
10 BY MR. GARREN:
11 Q Now, Ms. Anderson, do you recall
12 who in the Office of Personnel Security first
13 mentioned the need to conduct an update
14 project?
15 A That would have been Nancy Gemmell.
16 Q Did Ms. Gemmell bring the need to
17 conduct an update project to your attention?
18 A To the office attention, yes.
19 Q Do you recall whether she mentioned
20 it to Mr. Livingstone?
21 A I'm not 100 percent certain, but I
22 believe she did.
78
1 Q When Ms. Gemmell brought up the
2 need to conduct an update project --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
4 foundation. Move to strike the last three
5 questions and responses.
6 MR. GARREN: I think she previously
7 testified that Ms. Gemmell brought it up.
8 BY MR. GARREN:
9 Q Let us make sure. Was it
10 Ms. Gemmell who first brought up the need to
11 conduct an update project?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
13 foundation and leading.
14 THE WITNESS: Finished?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: It would have had to
17 have been Ms. Gemmell because she was the
18 only one who would have known about it.
19 BY MR. GARREN:
20 Q Do you recall whether she generally
21 explained to the staff the procedures
22 necessary to conduct the update project?
79
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
2 foundation. Leading. Compound.
3 THE WITNESS: Do you mean as the
4 whole office?
5 BY MR. GARREN:
6 Q Right.
7 A I don't believe she explained it to
8 the staff as a whole office, no.
9 Q Did she explain it to anyone?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Who did she explain it to?
12 A I was given a brief overview. I
13 believe Tony was given the steps. I'm not
14 sure if Craig knew or not.
15 Q Ms. Anderson, is it fair to say
16 that what you know about the rules and
17 procedures for conducting the update project
18 came from Ms. Gemmell?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
20 foundation. Leading.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 BY MR. GARREN:
80
1 Q Was she considered the expert in
2 the office on the rules and procedures for
3 conducting the update project?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
5 foundation.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Leading.
8 BY MR. GARREN:
9 Q Did you rely on her knowledge as to
10 what needed to be done and how it should be
11 done in the course of the update project?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
13 foundation. Leading.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 BY MR. GARREN:
16 Q Now, after Ms. Gemmell brought up
17 the need to conduct the update project, did
18 she, to your knowledge, receive any kind of
19 instruction or approval from Mr. Livingstone
20 to commence the project?
21 A I believe he did say let's go ahead
22 and begin.
81
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Hearsay.
2 Move to strike.
3 BY MR. GARREN:
4 Q And did you have any understanding
5 as to whether she intended to conduct the
6 update project in any fashion differently
7 than it had been conducted in prior
8 administrations?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
10 Compound.
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 BY MR. GARREN:
13 Q Was it your understanding she
14 intended to conduct --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: And lacks foundation.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q Was it your understanding she
18 intended to conduct the project in the same
19 fashion that it had been conducted in prior
20 administrations?
21 A Yes.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
82
1 BY MR. GARREN:
2 Q Are you aware of Ms. Gemmell being
3 given any instructions by Mr. Livingstone to
4 conduct the update project in any fashion
5 differently than it had been conducted in
6 prior administrations?
7 A No.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound.
9 Leading.
10 BY MR. GARREN:
11 Q Are you aware, Ms. Anderson, of
12 anyone --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: And lacks foundation.
14 BY MR. GARREN:
15 Q Are you aware, Ms. Anderson, of
16 anyone giving Ms. Gemmell any instructions to
17 conduct the update project in any fashion
18 differently than it had been conducted in
19 prior administrations?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound.
21 Leading. Lacks foundation. Vague and
22 ambiguous.
83
1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 BY MR. GARREN:
3 Q Now, you previously testified that
4 you were told by Mr. Livingstone at some
5 point before Mr. Marceca began his detail
6 that one of the planned assignments for
7 Mr. Marceca would be to work on the update
8 project; is that right?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 BY MR. GARREN:
12 Q Do you have personal knowledge
13 whether Mr. Livingstone ever told Ms. Gemmell
14 that he intended to have Mr. Marceca work on
15 the update project?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound.
17 Leading.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure, no. I
19 thought that it had been but I'm not sure.
20 BY MR. GARREN:
21 Q Is it possible that Ms. Gemmell
22 might not have known that Mr. Marceca would
84
1 be working on the update project when he
2 began his detail?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for
4 speculation. Leading. Lacks foundation.
5 Vague and ambiguous.
6 BY MR. GARREN:
7 Q You can answer the question.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, Ms. Anderson, do you recall
10 Mr. Marceca coming to the Office of Personnel
11 Security shortly before he was to start his
12 detail in the office?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Vague as
15 to time.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q Do you recall approximately when
18 that was in relationship to his starting the
19 detail in August of '93?
20 A I believe it was either one or two
21 days, about a week before he was supposed to
22 start, I think.
85
1 Q Do you recall on that occasion when
2 Mr. Marceca came to the office before his
3 detail was to begin that Mr. Marceca and
4 Ms. Gemmell sat down and had any kind of
5 discussion?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
7 Lacks foundation.
8 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the
9 question?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Vague.
11 BY MR. GARREN:
12 Q Do you recall when Mr. Marceca came
13 to the office before his detail was to begin
14 whether he met with Ms. Gemmell?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And where did they meet?
17 A Primarily, I believe, it was in the
18 vault.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.
20 THE WITNESS: In the vault.
21 BY MR. GARREN:
22 Q Now, was it your understanding that
86
1 when they met Ms. Gemmell was discussing the
2 procedures of the office with Mr. Marceca?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
4 foundation. Vague. Leading. Vague.
5 THE WITNESS: That was my
6 understanding.
7 BY MR. GARREN:
8 Q Do you recall your deposition being
9 taken by the Senate concerning this matter?
10 A Oh, yeah.
11 Q And do you recall testifying in
12 your Senate deposition that it was your
13 understanding that Ms. Gemmell gave
14 Mr. Marceca a detailed explanation of how the
15 update project was to be conducted at the
16 time that they met before Mr. Marceca began
17 his detail?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound.
19 Leading. Vague.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 BY MR. GARREN:
22 Q Now, referencing this particular
87
1 meeting that Ms. Gemmell and Mr. Marceca had
2 before Mr. Marceca began his work in the
3 office, did you actually sit in on that
4 meeting?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you personally hear what was
7 discussed in the meeting?
8 A No.
9 Q Is it fair to say, Ms. Anderson,
10 that when you indicated in your Senate
11 deposition that Ms. Gemmell had given
12 Mr. Marceca a detailed description of the
13 update project and how it was to be
14 conducted, that that was an assumption on
15 your part?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, Ms. Anderson --
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
19 Move to strike.
20 BY MR. GARREN:
21 Q Ms. Anderson, did you personally
22 ever explain to Mr. Marceca how he should go
88
1 about conducting the update project?
2 A Not to my memory.
3 Q Let's turn back to Ms. Gemmell and
4 conducting the update project. Are you aware
5 of Ms. Gemmell obtaining a list from the
6 Secret Service to conduct the update project?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you recall specifically seeing
9 the list that she obtained from the Secret
10 Service to conduct the update project?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
12 foundation.
13 THE WITNESS: I recall seeing a
14 multitude of lists, and since then, yes, I
15 have seen that list a number of times.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q When you say she received the list
18 from the Secret Service, how do you know the
19 list that she obtained to conduct the update
20 project was a Secret Service list?
21 A Because it was on paper like that
22 that's in front of me; that is, the big 11 by
89
1 17 computer green and white paper.
2 Q Is it your testimony you recall
3 Ms. Gemmell obtaining a list to conduct the
4 update project from the Secret Service?
5 A I believe so, yes.
6 Q And was the list that she obtained
7 on this type of paper?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did it have the green and white
10 stripes on it that this paper has?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did it have the holes in the margin
13 that are present in this paper?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. GARREN: Please mark this as
16 Exhibit No. 2.
17 (Anderson Deposition Exhibit
18 No. 2 was marked for
19 identification.)
20 BY MR. GARREN:
21 Q Now, with respect, Ms. Anderson, to
22 the list that Ms. Gemmell obtained from the
90
1 Secret Service to conduct the update project,
2 do you recall generally what the list was
3 comprised of?
4 A Generally, I believe it was
5 comprised of full name, first, last, middle
6 initial; pass type; office that they worked
7 in; date of birth; place of birth; Social
8 Security number.
9 Q Was it your understanding that the
10 list included active passholders, inactive
11 passholders, or a combination of those two?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
13 Vague and ambiguous. Lacks foundation.
14 THE WITNESS: They would have all
15 been active.
16 BY MR. GARREN:
17 Q Now, do you know why Ms. Gemmell
18 would need a list of active passholders with
19 full names, date of birth, place of birth,
20 and Social Security number in order to
21 conduct the update project?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound.
91
1 Lacks foundation.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 BY MR. GARREN:
4 Q Why was that?
5 A In order to request a report or a
6 name check from the FBI, you needed more than
7 just the name for the identifier.
8 Q Now let me refer you back to
9 Exhibit No. 1 in your deposition. Is there
10 any place on this document that that kind of
11 information, date of birth, place of birth,
12 Social Security number, would have been
13 entered in order to request file summaries
14 from the FBI?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And where is that?
17 A Underneath the name and beside the
18 name would be the -- beside the name would be
19 the Social Security number; underneath the
20 name would be date of birth and place of
21 birth.
22 Q Do you recall, Ms. Anderson, that
92
1 after Ms. Gemmell obtained the secret list to
2 conduct the update project whether she
3 arranged for the creation of any file folders
4 or labels to be produced?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Tell us about that. What did she
7 do in regard to the creation of file folders
8 and labels in the course of the update
9 project?
10 A If my memory serves me correct,
11 what she would do is create the files with
12 the labels and then the name checks or the
13 forms for the copies of the previous reports
14 would then be filed in a separate drawer
15 awaiting the response from the FBI.
16 Q Do you recall whether she used
17 interns or volunteers to assist in creating
18 tabs and file folders?
19 A By that time, there were no more
20 volunteers in the office. It was all
21 interns.
22 Q Do you recall whether she used
93
1 interns to create file folders and labels in
2 the course of the update project?
3 A I believe she did use interns.
4 Q Do you know how far Ms. Gemmell got
5 on the update project before she retired from
6 the office?
7 A No.
8 Q Now, this secret service list that
9 you mentioned that Ms. Gemmell had obtained
10 for the purposes of conducting the update
11 project, do you recall whether she left the
12 list behind in the office when she retired
13 from the Office of Personnel Security?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Where did she leave that list?
16 A In the vault, in the file drawer
17 next to the one where she had the active
18 files or the file she had activated.
19 Q Was it your understanding that she
20 left the list behind for the purposes of use
21 in completing the update project?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading.
94
1 Compound. Vague and ambiguous.
2 THE WITNESS: That would be my
3 understanding.
4 BY MR. GARREN:
5 Q Do you know whether Tony Marceca
6 found the list that Ms. Gemmell had left
7 behind when he began his detail at the Office
8 of Personnel Security?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
10 foundation. Vague and ambiguous. Compound.
11 THE WITNESS: I believe so.
12 BY MR. GARREN:
13 Q And did he use the list in
14 conducting the update project?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
16 foundation.
17 BY MR. GARREN:
18 Q To your knowledge?
19 MR. GARREN: I'm sorry. I didn't
20 mean to cut you off. Go ahead finish your
21 objection.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Lacks foundation.
95
1 Leading.
2 BY MR. GARREN:
3 Q Did he use the list, to your
4 knowledge, in conducting the update project?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, let me show you Nancy
7 Gemmell's declaration in this case. Really,
8 what I want you to focus on at this point is
9 the attachment to the declaration, and before
10 you begin to review this, I want to make
11 certain representations about this document.
12 First, I want you to assume that
13 the original of this document is on the same
14 type of paper which is Exhibit 2 to your
15 deposition.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Improper
17 question.
18 BY MR. GARREN:
19 Q Secondly, in reviewing the
20 document, I want you to understand that
21 information related to date of birth, place
22 of birth, Social Security, and pass type was
96
1 on the original document but has been
2 redacted from this document for privacy
3 purposes. Do you understand?
4 A Yes.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
6 foundation.
7 BY MR. GARREN:
8 Q Third, I want to explain to you
9 that there are numbers in the margin that
10 were there for identification purposes but
11 were not on the original of the document. Do
12 you understand?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now please review the document.
15 You can look through it generally.
16 I want you to be comfortable
17 generally with what's in the document. Now,
18 accepting these representations that I've
19 made to you about the information that was
20 redacted from this document, does this
21 document include the general types of
22 information that were needed in order to
97
1 conduct the update project?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
3 foundation. Vague and ambiguous.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 BY MR. GARREN:
6 Q Now, you previously mentioned that
7 Ms. Gemmell had at some point mentioned to
8 Mr. Livingstone the need to conduct the
9 update project; is that correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you mentioned that at some
12 point Mr. Livingstone approved Ms. Gemmell's
13 initiating the update project; is that
14 correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Note the date on this list. What's
17 the date?
18 A I am not sure. I believe it looks
19 to be 6/10/93, but I can't read the first
20 part of it.
21 Q Assuming the date is June 10, 1993,
22 is that date within the general time period
98
1 in which Ms. Gemmell brought up to
2 Mr. Livingstone the need to conduct the
3 update project?
4 A I believe so.
5 Q Is it within the general time
6 period when Mr. Livingstone approved
7 Ms. Gemmell's initiation of the project?
8 A I believe so.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
10 foundation on the last two questions and move
11 to strike.
12 BY MR. GARREN:
13 Q Now, I want to focus your attention
14 on a particular handwritten notation on the
15 list. The page that I'm referencing has
16 identification number on it as CGE 056186.
17 There is a notation in the top right-hand
18 margin. Can you read that notation?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Excuse me. What page
20 are you on here?
21 MR. GILLIGAN: 56186. It's
22 approximately a third to halfway through the
99
1 list.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay, thank you.
3 MR. GARREN: I'll let you find it
4 before I --
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.
6 MR. GARREN: Do you have it,
7 Mr. Klayman?
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
9 BY MR. GARREN:
10 Q Can you read that notation,
11 Ms. Anderson?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What does it say?
14 A "Labels completed 7/2/93."
15 Q Do you recognize this handwriting?
16 A No.
17 Q Does this notation have any
18 potential relevance, in your mind, to the
19 update project conducted by the Office of
20 Personnel Security?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Explain what relevance this
100
1 notation has to the update project.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Lacks
3 foundation. Vague and ambiguous. Leading.
4 THE WITNESS: That labels would
5 have been created for the files.
6 BY MR. GARREN:
7 Q And why is that relevant to the
8 update project?
9 A In order to have a file, you had to
10 have a name on it, and in order to -- for
11 purposes of filing, you had to have an actual
12 physical folder.
13 Q Were you aware of Ms. Gemmell
14 arranging for the creation of labels for the
15 update project before file summaries were
16 requested from the FBI?
17 A Vaguely, yes.
18 Q And does this statement, "Labels
19 Completed 7/2/93," potentially relate to that
20 process of creating labels for the update
21 project?
22 A Yes.
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