251
1 A We would receive our blue forms of
2 people who were currently working at the
3 White House from his office.
4 Q What are blue forms?
5 A Blue forms are the initial forms
6 that you fill out that, if you refer back to
7 Exhibit 1, that we would receive. A blue
8 form would have the person's name, their date
9 of birth, their place of birth, their Social
10 Security, where they lived that we would need
11 to fill out to run an initial name check, and
12 it would also identify what office they were
13 working in.
14 Q During the time that you worked in
15 the Office of Personnel Security, had you
16 ever seen the signature of Bernard Nussbuam,
17 the actual handwritten signature?
18 A I don't remember, so I don't think
19 so.
20 Q So everything that was done was
21 done with a typewritten signature of
22 Mr. Nussbuam?
252
1 A Everything that was done as far as
2 what?
3 Q Requisition forms.
4 A Yes. Everything that was done on a
5 form like this would have been by typed --
6 Q Referring to Exhibit 1, when you
7 saw Mr. Nussbuam's name on that form, you
8 assumed that he'd authorized the requisition
9 form?
10 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of
11 the question.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You can respond.
14 A My understanding was it was
15 procedure or protocol that whoever at that
16 time was counsel to the president's name
17 would appear, just in previous administration
18 it had been C. Boyden Gray and after
19 Mr. Nussbuam it was Mr. Lloyd Cutler and
20 Mr. Mikva.
21 Q And it was your understanding that
22 the name typewritten on that form of the
253
1 White House counsel constituted an
2 authorization to obtain FBI files?
3 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of
4 the question.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 A I have no knowledge that it was an
8 understanding of his authorization. I have
9 an understanding that that was protocol.
10 Q It is your understanding that to
11 get FBI files, it must be authorized,
12 correct?
13 A By protocol our office had that
14 authority.
15 Q What do you mean by "our office"?
16 A I mean White House Office of
17 Personnel Security. We were mandated to keep
18 on record current investigations and their
19 process to a permanent pass.
20 Q And The White House Office of
21 Personnel Security is part of the White House
22 counsel's office, is it not?
254
1 A Yes.
2 Q So, therefore, the head of that
3 office must authorize the requisitioning of
4 FBI files; is that your understanding?
5 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form.
6 Three times she's gave --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: What's your name?
8 Mazur? Please don't interrupt the testimony?
9 MR. MAZUR: Well --
10 MR. KLAYMAN: You can make an
11 objection, but it's inappropriate, and I'll
12 ask this to be certified, to put testimony on
13 the record.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm quite confused as
15 to exactly what -- I have no understanding of
16 Mr. Nussbuam's direct authorization to order
17 the FBI files. I have an understanding that
18 our office had the authority and since we
19 fell under his umbrella protocol demanded
20 that we put his name or whoever the counsel's
21 name at the top of the form.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
255
1 Q And it was your understanding that,
2 because that name was put at the top of the
3 form, that it was the White House counsel who
4 was authorizing the requisition of FBI files,
5 correct?
6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Asked
7 and answered.
8 MR. MAZUR: Objection.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: That's another way of
12 tipping off the witness. Certify this. I've
13 been interrupted every single time I've asked
14 that question. Is that just coincidental?
15 Simple question.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q I'll ask it one more time. I ask
18 that I not be interrupted. Was it your
19 understanding that, because the name of The
20 White House counsel appeared on the top of
21 the requisition form, Exhibit 1, that he was
22 authorizing the requisition of the FBI files?
256
1 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form.
2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. Asked
3 and answered.
4 THE WITNESS: I believe I have
5 already stated --
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q It calls for yes or no.
8 A I believe I have already stated the
9 answer to that question.
10 Q What is it, yes or no?
11 A I believe I have already stated
12 that I did not have a specific understanding
13 of Mr. Nussbuam having given specific
14 approval but that it was the authority of our
15 office to request the investigation and that
16 as protocol his name was to appear at the
17 top.
18 Q If his name was just simply there
19 by protocol, did you ever tell anyone in the
20 office or in the Office of Personnel Security
21 or in The White House counsel's office to
22 take Nussbuam's name off. Unnecessary, this
257
1 clutters the document? Did you ever say
2 anything like that?
3 A No.
4 Q In fact, you never told anyone to
5 take Mr. Nussbuam's name off, did you?
6 A In fact, I never told anyone to put
7 it on there.
8 Q I asked you whether you asked
9 anyone to take it off.
10 A As per Nancy Gemmell, I was
11 instructed that his name as protocol was to
12 appear at the top, that the counsel to the
13 president's name appeared at the top. When
14 Mr. Nussbuam left his position as counsel to
15 the president and Mr. Lloyd Cutler took over
16 that position, we did change the name, as the
17 same thing that we did when Mr. Cutler left.
18 Q Because Ms. Gemmell also told you,
19 did she not, that the authorization had to
20 come from White House counsel to get FBI
21 files, correct?
22 A My understanding was that the
258
1 authorization came from our office as the
2 capacity to maintain those files.
3 Q So therefore it was your
4 understanding that your office could
5 requisition files from the FBI without the
6 authorization of The White House counsel?
7 A My understanding, as I have stated,
8 is that we fell underneath that umbrella of
9 his office and that our office had the
10 authority to request investigations be
11 performed and in the capacity that by law we
12 had to create files for people who were
13 currently at The White House.
14 Q This calls for a yes or no. It was
15 your understanding that you didn't need the
16 express authorization of The White House
17 counsel to get files from the FBI, correct?
18 A I'm not going to give you a
19 yes-or-no question because it's not a simple
20 yes or no, one of those compounded things.
21 Q No, this was not a compounded
22 thing, and I'll keep asking it until I get an
259
1 answer.
2 A I'll keep giving you the same
3 answer. It was my understanding that the
4 name check form which you have in front of
5 you that you keep referring to as Exhibit 1
6 or that is labeled Exhibit 1 is what we used
7 to request, that his name, Mr. Bernie
8 Nussbuam or Bernard Nussbuam, appears at the
9 top of the form because my understanding is
10 that it was protocol that his name appears at
11 that spot because our office fell under the
12 umbrella of counsel to the office and as the
13 function of the office by law we were
14 required to maintain files that contained
15 background investigations on all current
16 employees or current people who -- certain
17 people who had to have access to The White
18 House compound.
19 Q So is what your saying that
20 Mr. Nussbuam's name has nothing to do with
21 whether he's authorizing requisition of the
22 files? The appearance of his name on Exhibit
260
1 1 has nothing to do with whether he himself
2 as White House counsel authorized requisition
3 of FBI files?
4 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form of
5 the question.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 A Did he himself authorize each
9 investigation or each request?
10 Q I ask the questions. You give the
11 answers.
12 A I'm trying to clarify your
13 question.
14 Q Your job is not to change my
15 questions. Your job is to answer my
16 questions.
17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to this
18 harassment of the witness.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not harassment.
20 I'm the one who's being harassed.
21 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to clarify
22 your question because I did not understand
261
1 it.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q And I'll say it again. Is it your
4 understanding that, because you were told
5 that the name of The White House counsel
6 appeared on the requisition form only as a
7 matter of protocol, that he, Mr. Nussbuam,
8 was not authorizing the requisition of FBI
9 files?
10 A Are you asking me did he review
11 each one before it went out to authorize it?
12 Q I asked you what I asked you.
13 A I'm asking for clarification of
14 what you asked me.
15 Q I'll keep asking it all day long
16 until I get a response.
17 A That's fine. My flight leaves at
18 7:00.
19 Q And I'll keep asking it. It's a
20 simple question. You just told me that his
21 name appearing on the forms was only a matter
22 of protocol, correct?
262
1 A As far as I understood it, yes.
2 Q And you understood protocol to mean
3 that it just went on there as a matter of
4 form, correct?
5 A Yes, since we fell under his
6 office, yes.
7 Q So, therefore, when a requisition
8 form such as Exhibit 1 was prepared and sent
9 to the FBI, Mr. Nussbuam himself was not
10 authorizing the requisition of that file?
11 A He was not previewing the
12 authorizations, no.
13 Q So he wasn't authorizing it, so,
14 therefore, you, Ms. Anderson, assume
15 responsibility for obtaining the FBI files in
16 this lawsuit?
17 A No.
18 Q Therefore, Mr. Livingstone, who is
19 head of the office, must assume
20 responsibility for obtaining those FBI files,
21 correct?
22 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the
263
1 extent that calls for --
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Based on your understanding?
4 MR. GILLIGAN: May I state my
5 objection for the record? I object to the
6 extent that the question calls for a legal
7 conclusion.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Based on your understanding.
10 A Based on my understanding, the
11 office had the authority to request those
12 files.
13 Q And The White House counsel had
14 absolutely no say in the matter?
15 A We fell underneath the office of
16 White House counsel, so it would -- if you're
17 asking me to extend that, be under their
18 ����.
19 Q And it would be under Mr. Nussbuam
20 as head of that office, correct?
21 MR. MAZUR: I object to the form.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
264
1 Q You can respond.
2 A As far as I understand your
3 question, yes.
4 Q Thank you.
5 A But I don't clearly understand your
6 question.
7 Q We'll let the record speak for
8 itself.
9 A I hope so.
10 MR. GILLIGAN: You doing okay?
11 THE WITNESS: I'd like some more
12 water.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to wait
14 or do you want to continue on?
15 MR. GILLIGAN: Oh, no. No. You
16 can continue if you wish or you can take a
17 break if you wish. I don't care.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Now, when these requisition forms
20 were prepared, did you prepare them at the
21 direction of Mr. Livingstone, the requisition
22 forms such as Exhibit 1?
265
1 A Approval had already been given to
2 do the update project.
3 Q Is he the one who actually gave you
4 the command to produce these forms?
5 A He never gave me a specific
6 command, no, and nor did I ever specifically
7 produce those documents.
8 Q Who did produce exhibits such as
9 Exhibit 1? Who typed them out?
10 A Based on that date, I would say
11 probably Tony or an intern. I'm not sure.
12 Q Would it vary from one requisition
13 form to another?
14 A It very well could have.
15 MR. GILLIGAN: Don't wait for me to
16 ask, if you need water or anything like that,
17 any time.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
19 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
20 Exhibit 7.
21 (Anderson Deposition Exhibit
22 No. 7 was marked for
266
1 identification.)
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Showing you Exhibit 7, these are
4 additional requisition forms such as Exhibit
5 1.
6 MR. GILLIGAN: Are those --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, there's more
8 than one, and I'll identify which ones.
9 MR. GILLIGAN: The stack you gave
10 her, is that more than one copy of the
11 exhibit?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. It's for you.
13 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you very much.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: You're welcome.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Turning to the form, it appears
17 four pages in for Cara Leslie Alexander.
18 This is the same form that we've just
19 identified as Exhibit 1, is it not?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Who prepared this form?
22 A I do not know.
267
1 Q Given what you know about how the
2 office operated who most likely prepared it?
3 A Tony or an intern.
4 Q Turn to the next one. This is
5 dealing with Marlin Fitzwater. Do you know
6 who prepared this form?
7 A No.
8 Q Most likely Tony or an intern?
9 A Probably.
10 Q Tell me if your response differs
11 for any of these various forms. The next one
12 is Joe Duggan. Do you know who prepared that
13 one?
14 A No.
15 Q Next one after that is Ken
16 Duberstein?
17 A No.
18 Q Can you make out the handwriting
19 below where it says, "4 letters, 4 memos, and
20 ENC"? Do you know who that might be?
21 A No, but it looks to be in response
22 to the FBI, so I would assume it was somebody
268
1 at the FBI who wrote that in.
2 Q Turn to the form for Marjorie Ann
3 Bridgman. Do you know who prepared that
4 form?
5 A No.
6 Q Most likely the intern or Tony
7 Marceca?
8 A Mm-hmm.
9 Q Turn to the form two pages on,
10 David Lee Black, same answer to those
11 questions?
12 A Yes.
13 Q The one that follows that is James
14 Addison Baker, same answer to that?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All of the forms that I've just
17 shown to you were prepared and maintained in
18 the ordinary course of the work at the Office
19 of Personnel Security?
20 A I believe these were, yes.
21 Q Have you ever been contacted by
22 anyone in the press or the media about the
269
1 FBI files matter?
2 A Attempts had been made.
3 Q Did you ever actually talk with
4 anyone?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever hear of a George
7 Lardner?
8 A No.
9 Q Jerry Seeper?
10 A No.
11 Q I believe that you've previously
12 testified that the Office of Personnel
13 Security knew in the fall of 1993 that it had
14 obtained FBI files on "people who were no
15 longer working there"?
16 A Yes.
17 Q When was the first time that you
18 learned that?
19 A I do not recall a specific first
20 time.
21 Q Who raised that? Who was the one
22 who brought it to everybody's attention or
270
1 your attention, rather?
2 A I do not remember specifically, but
3 I think it might have either been Tony or
4 Lisa.
5 Q Lisa Wetzl?
6 A Mm-hmm.
7 Q And how did the issue arise?
8 A I do not remember how -- I have a
9 vague memory that it was brought up, but how
10 it happened I do not remember.
11 Q Did you bring that to anybody's
12 attention outside of the office?
13 A No.
14 Q When you learned that in fact files
15 had been obtained from people who were no
16 longer working at The White House, you found
17 that to be out of the ordinary, did you not?
18 A No. I found that in the course of
19 the investigation that -- or in the update
20 project, that some of the people's files that
21 we were receiving had already left the White
22 House, but we didn't know who they were or
271
1 how they figured into the scheme of things.
2 Q What do you mean by they had
3 already left the White House?
4 A I meant that they had worked -- we
5 had assumed under the Clinton Administration
6 and had left, no longer working there.
7 Q But didn't it, as a matter of
8 common sense, strike you that you wouldn't
9 want to get a file of somebody who no longer
10 worked in the White House?
11 A It struck me that, based on the
12 lists we had, we had no way of knowing that
13 they were no longer in The White House.
14 Q But once you learned that in fact a
15 file had been obtained of someone who no
16 longer worked there, you did find that
17 unusual, did you not?
18 A Once I learned that we had files
19 that were of people who were no longer in The
20 White House, we slated them to be archived.
21 We had other files of people who were no
22 longer in The White House, and those had also
272
1 been slated to be archived.
2 Q Once you learned of this, did you
3 bring it to the attention of Mr. Livingstone?
4 A I believe it came to the office's
5 attention as a whole. I'm not sure of the
6 specifics. But I do know we did discuss it.
7 Q And I take it somebody said we've
8 got a problem, we've got to decide what to do
9 with these files now?
10 A Yes. No. We first discussed we
11 have a problem and is there a way we can
12 order files of people who are no longer here
13 and we discussed it, and we tried to the best
14 of our ability not to.
15 Q Who was it that said we have a
16 problem?
17 A I believe all of us felt we had a
18 problem.
19 Q You, Mr. Livingstone, correct?
20 A (Nodding)
21 Q Mr. Marceca?
22 A (Nodding)
273
1 Q Ms. Wetzl, correct?
2 A Yes, to my understanding.
3 Q All those people?
4 A To my understanding, yes.
5 Q Anybody else?
6 A I believe we were the only ones who
7 were talking about it.
8 Q And in fact you knew it was a big
9 problem?
10 A We knew it was a problem, but we
11 also knew we had other files that were of
12 people who had since left The White House, so
13 we assumed we would just archive them because
14 they had already become Presidential records.
15 Q And what other files did you have?
16 A Comments volunteers who were no
17 longer there, other office members who were
18 no longer there, as in the health task force,
19 the office of -- there were various offices
20 throughout. The office of presidential
21 personnel had a high turnover rate, the
22 Office of Vice President had some turnover.
274
1 Virtually every office within The White House
2 by the summer had had some sort of turnover.
3 Q You said the healthcare task force
4 under the Clinton Administration?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And how did the office come to the
7 determination that the documents should be
8 archived? Who did you consult with to come
9 to that determination?
10 A Our information was that they had
11 already left. There's a checkout procedure
12 that you have to go through when you leave
13 The White House.
14 Q And that information came from The
15 White House counsel to archive them?
16 A No.
17 Q It came from Bernie Nussbuam?
18 A No.
19 Q William Kennedy?
20 A No.
21 Q Vince Foster?
22 A No.
275
1 Q Who did it come from?
2 A As I had stated, there was a
3 checkout procedure that you had to go through
4 to leave The White House, and one of those
5 stops on that form was our office.
6 Q Well, you knew that the files had
7 originally come from the FBI, correct?
8 A Are you talking about the files for
9 current employees that we knew had left or
10 are you talking about the update project?
11 They're two different issues.
12 Q The former.
13 A The current employees who had left?
14 Q Right.
15 A We came to know about them because
16 they had to go through the checkout procedure
17 through our office.
18 Q Right. But you knew those files
19 came from the FBI originally?
20 A Yes.
21 Q It made sense to you that, if they
22 came from the FBI originally, that's where
276
1 they should be sent back, correct?
2 A No.
3 Q How did you come to the conclusion
4 that it shouldn't be sent back from the place
5 it came but instead be sent to some other
6 place inside The White House?
7 A My understanding is that once it
8 came into The White House it became a
9 presidential record, as I have already
10 stated, and therefore as a presidential
11 record. It then goes into the archive which
12 is maintained by the records management
13 office.
14 Q Well, who told you that? That's my
15 question. Where did that understanding come
16 from?
17 A Nancy Gemmell.
18 Q Did she give you that information
19 in writing?
20 A No.
21 Q Was it done orally?
22 A I imagine it was but I don't
277
1 remember specifically.
2 Q In fact, it came from someone in
3 the Clinton administration, didn't it, other
4 than Ms. Gemmell?
5 A I do not know.
6 Q It may have?
7 A I doubt it.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: We can change the
9 tape.
10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
11 video record at 3:11.
12 (Recess)
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on
14 video record at 3:20.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Ms. Anderson, during the time that
17 you were with the Office of Personnel
18 Security, are you aware of anyone having been
19 trained in Privacy Act procedures?
20 A Nancy Gemmell was.
21 Q She was but you weren't, correct?
22 A She had told us that any request of
278
1 privacy was -- or not any request of privacy
2 but any request for a file, there had to be
3 some sort of -- it had to be an agency that
4 had the authorization and it had to have a
5 valid reason for such a request.
6 Q Other than that information from
7 Nancy Gemmell, no other information was
8 provided to either you, Mr. Livingstone, or
9 others in the office, correct?
10 A No.
11 Q That's correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q There was nothing in writing that
14 was provided to the members of that office,
15 yourself, Mr. Livingstone, Mr. Marceca,
16 Ms. Wetzl, and others, nothing in writing?
17 A No.
18 Q There were no manuals provided,
19 correct?
20 A No.
21 Q And no one came to train any of you
22 from The White House counsel's office,
279
1 Mr. Nussbuam's office, correct?
2 A Not to my recollection.
3 Q In fact, Mr. Nussbuam never even
4 talked to anyone about that, to the best of
5 your knowledge, did he?
6 A Not to my recollection.
7 Q And neither did Mr. Kennedy?
8 A Not to my recollection.
9 Q And neither did Mr. Foster?
10 A Not to my recollection.
11 Q Did anyone from your office,
12 meaning you, Mr. Livingstone, Mr. Marceca,
13 Ms. Wetzl, ever ask for any written materials
14 on the privacy act?
15 A No. We never gave anything out of
16 our office.
17 Q But you never asked for any written
18 materials about procedures?
19 A Not to my recollection.
20 Q You were aware that FBI files are
21 covered by the Privacy Act?
22 A Yes.
280
1 Q Everybody to the best of your
2 knowledge was aware of that when you worked
3 there?
4 A Yes.
5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q I take it no one ever asked to see
8 a copy of the Privacy Act, did they?
9 A Not to the best of my recollection.
10 Q So all of your actions meaning you,
11 Mr. Livingstone, Mr. Marceca, Ms. Wetzl, and
12 others, to the best of your knowledge, were
13 based on that one instruction from
14 Ms. Gemmell?
15 A All of our actions were based on
16 the understanding that everything that we did
17 in our office was confidential and was to be
18 kept confidential.
19 Q But the only actual instruction you
20 ever got was the one you just mentioned from
21 Ms. Gemmell?
22 A It wasn't one specific instruction
281
1 but randomly throughout the course of my
2 working there and her working there at the
3 same time, yes.
4 Q She said the same thing?
5 A She didn't say the same thing, but
6 she would say we are covered by the Privacy
7 Act. This is what it entails.
8 Q Did you ever ask Ms. Gemmell to
9 explain to you what kind of training she had
10 received? When I say you, you,
11 Mr. Livingstone, Mr. Marceca?
12 A I do not know what Craig or Tony or
13 Lisa asked her. I know that I was told that
14 she had been there for 19 years and some odd
15 months and that she was the one to if we had
16 any questions to ask.
17 Q You were aware that courses are
18 provided by the federal government on the
19 Privacy Act when you worked there?
20 A No.
21 Q Have you subsequently become aware
22 of that?
282
1 A Just a second ago when you
2 mentioned it.
3 Q So no one ever told you that there
4 were courses that were provided by the
5 government on how to deal with Privacy Act
6 materials?
7 A Not to my recollection, no.
8 Q You don't know of that ever having
9 been said to Mr. Livingstone or others?
10 A I do not know what Craig learned or
11 not.
12 Q At the time that you worked in the
13 Office of Personnel Security, you understood
14 that materials contained in FBI files were
15 highly confidential, did you not?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And everyone else in that office,
18 to the best of your knowledge, understood the
19 same thing?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you were aware that the release
22 of those materials could cause significant
283
1 harm to the persons?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Correct?
4 A Yes. We didn't know that they
5 would cause harm, but we did know that we
6 would not release them.
7 Q And you were aware that the
8 information contained in FBI files can
9 sometimes be unsubstantiated information,
10 just like gossip, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q People had told you that, correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you yourself had looked at FBI
15 files while you were there, correct?
16 A It was somehow difficult to see
17 them.
18 Q And it was difficult to see them
19 because you were handling so many of them,
20 correct?
21 A I handled them when they came in
22 the door, yes.
284
1 Q How did they come in the door?
2 A They would be -- the FBI would
3 deliver the background investigations to
4 counsel's office, Ed ���� from counsel's
5 office would happened carry them down to our
6 office, and we would then record those
7 background investigations or partial
8 background investigations we received, and
9 then Craig would review them.
10 Q How would they look physically when
11 they came in?
12 A Like a stack of papers.
13 Q They were files, correct?
14 A A stack of papers.
15 Q And you could just open them up and
16 see what was inside, correct?
17 A There was no manila folder files.
18 They were a stack of papers.
19 Q I see. They weren't even in files?
20 A No. They were in an envelope.
21 Q And the envelopes were opened?
22 A The envelopes -- they were in the
285
1 envelopes that the FBI had put them in to
2 give to their courier to courier over to the
3 White House.
4 Q What kind of an envelope?
5 A Big 9 by 13 inch manila envelope.
6 Q Was there a fastening device on the
7 envelope?
8 A I believe so.
9 Q Was it a little string or something
10 like that?
11 A It wasn't an inter-office. It was
12 one that had -- that was one that you could
13 glue and then you could do the little silver
14 fastening thing.
15 Q But you could open it up easily?
16 A I assume so.
17 Q You've seen your own FBI file, I
18 take it?
19 A No.
20 Q It did come into your office, did
21 it not?
22 A No.
286
1 Q Have you ever asked to see it?
2 A No.
3 Q Who's the person who brought the
4 files over to your office?
5 A I just stated Ed ���� and he didn't
6 -- I'm sorry, he didn't bring files. He
7 brought the investigations. They're two
8 different things.
9 Q Tell me how they're two things.
10 A One is an investigation. One is a
11 complete file that has your IRS tax check
12 plus if you've been to security briefing,
13 your blue form, your name check, and
14 everything else.
15 Q So you've seen examples of both
16 types of files, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you've looked at examples of
19 both types of files?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you remember whose files you
22 looked into?
287
1 A No.
2 Q Can you name some names of
3 individuals that others in the office looked
4 into?
5 A I cannot give you that information.
6 Q Tell me if I'm wrong. You
7 previously testified that the files that were
8 taken out of the office were signed out for,
9 correct?
10 A Incorrect.
11 Q What did you testify to?
12 A I testified that background
13 investigations that were taken out of the
14 office by George Saunders or Bill Kennedy or
15 some other member were signed for, but then
16 there were the ones where Craig took the file
17 or took the investigation that were not
18 signed for that were kept in his custody the
19 whole time.
20 Q Where did he take those files,
21 generally?
22 A He would generally, and I don't
288
1 remember every specific occasion, take them
2 to Bill Kennedy.
3 Q Anyone else?
4 A Maybe counsel's office. I'm not
5 sure. And sometimes Secret Service.
6 Q Who in counsel's office?
7 A I do not know specifically.
8 Q Who at Secret Service?
9 A Arnie Cole.
10 Q And is that a man?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What was his position?
13 A He was special agent in charge of
14 the Secret Service division.
15 Q And why did Craig Livingstone take
16 files to him?
17 A Because Arnie was given the
18 responsibility to ensure that all White House
19 employees -- he was the agent in charge of
20 the pass process and to make sure that no one
21 had a violent history or was a threat to the
22 President.
289
1 Q You don't know what files
2 Mr. Livingstone took to these people, do you?
3 A I beg your pardon?
4 Q You don't know what files
5 Mr. Livingstone took to see Mr. Kennedy or
6 Mr. Cole or people like that, do you?
7 A I remember some of them.
8 Q Name the ones you remember.
9 A I don't know.
10 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection.
11 Objection. There are significant privacy
12 interests of the individuals in question that
13 could be tread upon here.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll take it under
15 protective order. We can seal this part.
16 MR. GILLIGAN: No.
17 THE WITNESS: I will not answer
18 that part.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: That's certainly a
20 catch-22, isn't it. That's what this case is
21 about.
22 MR. GILLIGAN: I think it would be
290
1 appropriate to ask whether they were current
2 White House employees or former White House
3 employees. To that we have no objection, but
4 if they're current White House employees, no.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Our case is just
6 broader than just simple White House
7 employees.
8 MR. GILLIGAN: You can ask if they
9 were current White House employees. Why
10 don't you ask if they were current White
11 House employees and see what the answer is
12 and that may moot the entire issue.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: How would the
14 existence of a file on someone -- I'm not
15 asking what's in the file. I'm just asking
16 whether the file was taken by Livingstone to
17 show to somebody else. That would not
18 violate a privacy right. In fact, the
19 covering up of that information may violate a
20 privacy right.
21 MR. GILLIGAN: I don't see how the
22 latter follows but certainly as far as the
291
1 former goes the fact that somebody's file was
2 reviewed by counsel's office could be
3 prejudicial to that person.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to certify
5 this and obviously we'll go back to the court
6 and ask him for a ruling on this.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q So let's ask the question the way
9 you suggested. Any White House employees at
10 that time whose files were taken?
11 A That was the only files that would
12 have been taken.
13 Q You previously testified that there
14 were files that were taken to White House
15 counsel's office and you knew the names?
16 A I knew some of the names.
17 Q So, if those are the only files
18 that were taken -- is that what you're
19 saying, they were only White House employees?
20 A The ones that I remember, yes.
21 Q So who are they?
22 A I'm not going to answer.
292
1 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection for the
2 reason --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I can't ask it either
4 way, Mr. Gilligan.
5 MR. GILLIGAN: That's the same
6 question you asked a moment ago that I
7 objected to.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify the whole
9 area and I'll also note for the record that
10 the witness' gratuitous response suggests
11 that perhaps this objection had an impact on
12 her testimony.
13 MR. GILLIGAN: Suggest anything you
14 want, Mr. Klayman. The record speaks for
15 itself.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q But you don't know all the files
18 that Mr. Livingstone took to show people, do
19 you?
20 A Not to my memory, no.
21 Q And he didn't check with you when
22 he took those files, did he, generally
293
1 speaking?
2 A Not to my memory, no.
3 Q You are aware that Mr. Livingstone
4 visited The White House residence from time
5 to time, are you not?
6 A I am aware that he went over to The
7 White House proper but not specifically to
8 the residence.
9 Q You are aware that Mr. Livingstone
10 met with Betsy Wright at The White House, are
11 you not?
12 A No.
13 Q You are aware that Mr. Livingstone
14 visited the Vice President's office from time
15 to time, are you not?
16 A I know that he visited members of
17 the Vice President's office, members of his
18 staff.
19 Q And you don't know whether when he
20 visited The White House proper and the Vice
21 President's office that he wasn't carrying
22 files with him, FBI files, do you?
294
1 A I would say that the majority of
2 times that he visited, to my recollection, he
3 had no files with him.
4 Q But you don't know that he never
5 went into The White House residence or
6 visited the Vice President's office with
7 files, do you?
8 A I cannot testify as to his
9 movements or actions the whole time, no.
10 Q Right. And you don't know whether
11 he ever showed FBI files to persons in the
12 White House residence or in the vice
13 president's office, do you?
14 A You need to define which files.
15 Q FBI files.
16 A Which investigations?
17 Q Any of them.
18 A There were, as I've stated
19 previously, times when he would take current
20 employees' investigations to counsel's
21 office, but as far as employees who had
22 already left The White House, no. To my
295
1 knowledge, he never took employees who had
2 already left The White House files to anyone
3 outside of our office.
4 Q Do you have anything in writing to
5 prove that?
6 A No, I'm saying to my knowledge.
7 Q So, therefore, to your knowledge
8 you don't know that he didn't take past
9 employees files and show them to people in
10 the White House residence or the Vice
11 President's office, do you?
12 A To my knowledge, no.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
14 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
15 Exhibit 8.
16 (Anderson Deposition Exhibit
17 No. 8 was marked for
18 identification.)
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q And I'll ask you the same question
21 with regard to Mr. Marceca. You don't know
22 whether he took former employees' FBI files
296
1 and showed them to individuals in The White
2 House residence or the Vice President's
3 office, do you?
4 A I am not aware of Tony ever taking
5 files out of our office.
6 Q But you weren't with him all the
7 time, were you?
8 A No, same as I was not with every
9 member of our office the whole time.
10 Q So it's possible that you don't
11 know whether they took those files and showed
12 them to others, correct?
13 A In my presence I never saw him take
14 files from our office.
15 Q You can't tell me unequivocally he
16 never did it?
17 A I'm saying in my presence I never
18 saw him take files from the office.
19 Q So the answer to my question is you
20 don't know what he did when he wasn't in your
21 presence?
22 A That is correct.
297
1 Q I'll show you what has been marked
2 as Exhibit 8. These are called WAVES logs of
3 the Secret Service and they show visits by
4 Craig Livingstone, for instance, on page 1,
5 Bates number 4954, to the White House
6 residence. Have you ever seen this document
7 before?
8 A No.
9 Q Have you ever seen WAVES logs
10 before?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How did you come to see WAVES logs?
13 A In the course of the operation of
14 our office.
15 Q Why in the course of the operation
16 of your office would you come into contact
17 with WAVES logs?
18 A Sometimes they would be requested.
19 Q Why would they come to be
20 requested?
21 A I'm sorry?
22 Q Why would they be to be requested
298
1 based on your knowledge?
2 A There would have been some issue of
3 improper use or something like that, but I'm
4 not sure of why.
5 Q Improper use of what?
6 A Somebody waiving somebody in
7 repeatedly, how many times they'd waived them
8 in, abusing their privileges to waive people
9 into the OEOB.
10 Q Who did that?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q You can't cite one person that did
13 it?
14 A I can't remember it, no.
15 Q But there were people that did it?
16 A I remember seeing this, but I don't
17 remember who.
18 Q And you saw more than once, did you
19 not?
20 A I remember seeing this form. I
21 don't remember how many times.
22 Q You saw more than once?
299
1 A I do not remember.
2 Q But you answered "times." That
3 means more than one, correct?
4 A It could have also been a figure of
5 speech.
6 Q Well, tell me.
7 A I'm saying I don't remember more
8 than once.
9 Q Now, the reference on page 1 that's
10 Bates form 4954, there's a reference to
11 December 7, 1993, Livingstone, Craig, POTUS.
12 That means the office of the President,
13 correct, that is the President, right?
14 A POTUS is the President.
15 Q And it says requestor Spangler.
16 Did you know a Spangler?
17 A No.
18 Q Do you know what that reference is
19 to?
20 A No.
21 Q And then it says, room, residence,
22 correct?
300
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, do you know what
3 Mr. Livingstone was going to The White House
4 residence for on that day?
5 A If it's a Saturday probably the
6 radio address.
7 Q Do you know that's a Saturday?
8 A No, I said if it was.
9 Q Otherwise, do you know why he was
10 going to the residence?
11 A No.
12 Q Let's turn to page 2. This is form
13 4926. This lists two entries for
14 Livingstone, one to a Room 450. Do you know
15 what room was Room 450?
16 A I believe it was up in the VP's
17 area.
18 Q Vice President's office?
19 A I believe.
20 Q And on that day do you know whether
21 Craig Livingstone took FBI files to the VP's
22 office?
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