51
1 MS. SHAPIRO: I am sorry, I didn't
2 assert the objection.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Assert it.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
5 attorney-client privilege and relevancy. He
6 is not authorized to disclose and he doesn't
7 need to disclose the specific conversation he
8 had with an attorney about this deposition.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Did Mr. Ben-Veniste tell you, when
12 you didn't wanted to answer a question, you
13 could just say you didn't remember?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Who else did you talk with?
16 A I mentioned to James Carville, who
17 I saw had been similarly noticed, or deposed
18 or served, rather. It was in the paper this
19 morning, so a few people may have mentioned
20 it to me.
21 Q Did you discuss your deposition
22 with anyone at the White House?
52
1 A Not the deposition, no. The fact
2 that it was in the newspaper this morning,
3 which did not come from me, I might add,
4 several people mentioned that to me.
5 Q Did you discuss with anyone in the
6 White House counsel's office your deposition
7 here today, or another day?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Who?
10 A Ms. Paxton.
11 Q Anyone else?
12 A I mentioned it to Mr. Ruff.
13 Q Did Mr. Ruff say anything to you
14 after you mentioned it to him? I am not
15 asking what was said. Did he respond?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Just a moment. The
17 witness has answered, yes he had a
18 conversation. Beyond that, it would violate
19 the attorney-client privilege.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: The fact that there
21 was an utterance from Mr. Ruff would violate
22 the attorney privilege?
53
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, the fact that
2 whether Mr. Ruff had a response to him, yes.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify that. We
4 have gone through this kind of thing with
5 Justice lawyers before. I would hope that
6 you would have an opportunity, perhaps at the
7 next break, to consult with someone. There
8 is a law here.
9 I am not asking for any advice. I
10 am just asking for him to a identify whether
11 Mr. Ruff responded.
12 When you instruct the witness not
13 to answer, that is a potential contempt of
14 court.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't need a
16 lecture on the rules.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am putting you on
18 notice that --
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Will you, please, let
20 me finish?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: We will move for
22 sanctions. I am asking you to correct it.
54
1 MS. SHAPIRO: I am asking you to
2 let me finish. I would like, one, to finish
3 whatever I say before you talk over it.
4 Two, the rules, specifically, state
5 that instruction not to answer on the basis
6 of privilege is appropriate.
7 If after this deposition you want
8 to move to compel, we would brief and support
9 that claim of privilege.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: What I am telling you
11 is that is frivolous. And I am putting you
12 on notice if you keep making those kinds of
13 objections, I will move to have you
14 sanctioned.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: I understand it --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You and your
17 colleagues.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: You can do what you
19 like. Thank you.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I am asking you at
21 the next break to get some advice on this,
22 because I am not asking for anything that
55
1 Mr. Ruff said in terms of specifics, but just
2 whether he responded. That is not covered by
3 privilege.
4 MS. PAXTON: Responded to what?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: To Mr. Begala telling
6 him that he was being deposed. Do you want
7 to reconsider whether he can answer that?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Nor at this point,
9 no.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Did you talk with anyone else at
13 the White House about your deposition before
14 Judicial Watch?
15 A I don't think so, no. Again it was
16 in the paper, so in the hallway a few people
17 said, I saw in the newspaper that you are
18 going to be deposed.
19 Q Who said that to you?
20 A I can't remember.
21 Q It happened to today?
22 A Yes, just different people said,
56
1 hey, either good luck or this is unfair.
2 Q You can't remember?
3 A Just in the hallway this morning, a
4 few people. I can't remember exactly
5 particular people. It was not a
6 conversation. It was literally passing in
7 the hall.
8 Q What time did this occur today?
9 A It was in the newspaper this
10 morning that I was going do be deposed. I
11 think that some folks, as I was walking to my
12 office said either, good luck or this is not
13 very fair, or comments of that nature.
14 Q Who said it wasn't fair?
15 A I don't know. I mean, I don't
16 know. I mean, I don't remember.
17 Q Do you frequently go down the
18 hallway, people talk to you and you don't
19 remember who they are?
20 A Casual hallway conversations are
21 not particularly noteworthy for me. They
22 don't make a big impression. Just hi, how
57
1 are you, or good luck today.
2 Q You don't look at the person?
3 A I am trying to be helpful.
4 Q I don't think you are trying to be
5 helpful. As long as you are making
6 gratuitous comments.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q I don't understand how you can't
10 remember someone greeting you in the hallway
11 today, and telling you it is not unfair.
12 That is today.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Is there a question
14 on the table?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Yes, can you tell me who greeted
17 you and made that comment?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: It has been asked and
19 answered.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Perhaps, his memory
21 is now refreshed.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Will you, please, let
58
1 me finish what I say before you speak over
2 me? I think it is only courteous.
3 THE WITNESS: I didn't make a note.
4 It didn't make a big impression. I am trying
5 to be --
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Were they male or female?
8 A As I came to work this morning, or
9 as I walked down the hall this morning,
10 people might have mentioned, hey, I saw in
11 the paper that you were going to be deposed.
12 Q More than one person?
13 A If you ask if I discussed, the
14 answer is no, I have not with those people.
15 But they were sort of, hey, how doing? Good
16 luck to you. In the hall this morning.
17 Q More than one person?
18 A I think.
19 Q Were they male or female?
20 A I don't remember. Again --
21 MS. SHAPIRO: This is asked and
22 answered.
59
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You don't know whether they are
3 male or female?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Argumentative.
5 Irrelevant. I think we can move on. He
6 has --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: You may not be the
8 one who decides whether we move on,
9 Ms. Shapiro.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I can state
11 that it has been asked and answered. And you
12 are being argumentative, at this point.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Were they male or female?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: He can only keep
16 repeating his answer.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am testing his
18 memory. It is a question of credibility.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: You are not entitled
20 to test his memory forever on the same
21 question.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I never asked the
60
1 same question. I asked male or female. I am
2 trying to make it more general for you.
3 THE WITNESS: I remember coming out
4 of the men's room, and I saw Goody Marshall.
5 Thurgood Marshall. He expressed that this
6 was -- I don't remember the exact words. He
7 was surprised. He was amazed. It was a
8 passing conversation in the hallway. I don't
9 remember with any other specificity.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Anyone else you can now remember?
12 A No. When you said male or female,
13 I just remembered it was the men's room I was
14 coming out of. It was one second.
15 Q This is Goody Marshall?
16 A Thurgood Marshall.
17 Q How is the first name spelled?
18 A T-h-u-r-g-o-o-d.
19 Q The first name?
20 A Thurgood.
21 Q This is Thurgood marshals's son?
22 A This is the only Thurgood Marshall
61
1 I know.
2 Q What is his position at the White
3 House?
4 A He coordinates cabinet affairs,
5 assistant to the President for cabinet
6 affairs.
7 Q Anyone else that you remember?
8 A No, sir, no. I have tried very
9 hard on your prompting to rack my brain.
10 Q Have you talked about your
11 appearing before Judicial Watch with anyone
12 else, other than what you just mentioned?
13 A No, sir, not that I can recall.
14 Q Did you have one or more
15 conversations with Mr. Carville about your
16 appearance here today?
17 A Yes, about may appearance, no.
18 About the fact that there had been a notice
19 that we were going to be called or you put
20 out a press release, yes.
21 Q When did the first such
22 conversation occur?
62
1 A I guess about the time the press
2 release went out, the day the press release
3 came out. I guess this was last week.
4 Q How did you learn about the press
5 release?
6 A It was in my in box.
7 Q How did it get into your in box?
8 A I don't know. Someone faxed it to
9 me.
10 Q I will show you what I will ask the
11 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 2.
12 (Begala Deposition Exhibit
13 No. 2 was marked for
14 identification.)
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Showing you Exhibit 2, Mr. Begala,
17 is this the press release to which you are
18 referring?
19 A Yeah. Yes, it seems fair.
20 Q The top of this press release shows
21 the marking that it was faxed from Judicial
22 Watch to the Mary Matalin show, Mary Matalin.
63
1 Does this refresh your recollection as to who
2 provided you with a copy of the press
3 release?
4 A It was in my in box. I didn't ask
5 who sent it. It was a press release. It
6 didn't seem like a particularly private
7 document to me.
8 Q What happened after you observed
9 this press release in your in box?
10 A I rolled my eyes and set it down.
11 Q Did you make a call?
12 A No.
13 Q Did someone call you? Did
14 Mr. Carville call you?
15 A I talked to Mr. Carville. I don't
16 remember. It wasn't at that exact moment, I
17 can tell you that. It came in my in box. I
18 looked at it rolled my eyes, and went about
19 my day.
20 Q Did you talk to him in person or on
21 the phone?
22 A On the phone.
64
1 Q Did you call him or did he call
2 you?
3 A I don't recall.
4 Q When did that conversation take
5 place?
6 A I think the day that this came out,
7 or, maybe, the day after. I don't remember
8 exactly. It was timely with the release of
9 the press release.
10 Q What did you and Mr. Carville
11 discuss during the conversation?
12 A Our view, my view -- I will speak
13 for myself, that it seemed, frankly, absurd
14 to be subpoenaed for a quip, a joke.
15 Q Is that what you think you were
16 subpoenaed for?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Nothing else?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q What did Mr. Carville say to you?
21 I want you to tell me everything he said to
22 you during that conversation.
65
1 A Best as I can recall, he agreed
2 that it was absurd. I don't remember the
3 exact words that he used.
4 Q Did he use profanity?
5 A No. It would not have been very
6 noteworthy if he had.
7 Q Did he call me a twerp?
8 A No, sir, he did not.
9 Q Only subsequently?
10 A Subsequently, we had a second
11 conversation after you appeared on MSNBC. It
12 wasn't about the deposition.
13 Q How long did the first conversation
14 take place?
15 A It was not a very long
16 conversation.
17 Q Did he advise you that he had been
18 subpoenaed?
19 A He didn't say he had been
20 subpoenaed. He said, he had been asked -- I
21 don't know the legal formalities, but he had
22 been asked, and my recollection is that the
66
1 date that he had been asked to appear, he
2 told me, he was going to be out of town.
3 Q In fact he told you he wasn't going
4 to appear, didn't he?
5 A No, the thing recorded in the paper
6 that James was kind of eager to get involved
7 in the judicial proceedings for reasons known
8 only to himself.
9 No, he did say, the particular
10 date, I think it was March 10, that he was
11 going to be out of town.
12 Q You are aware that he told the
13 process server, there was an affidavit, that
14 he wasn't going to appear?
15 A No, sir, I am not aware of that.
16 Q You are not aware of that?
17 A No.
18 Q Sworn affidavit, you have never
19 seen it?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q What, if anything, did you say to
22 Mr. Carville about whether you would appear
67
1 for a deposition?
2 A It didn't come up.
3 Q Now, you say that I appeared on
4 MSNBC. This was with John Gibson?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q This was last week?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Is it correct that you called John
9 Gibson after I made a statement that we were
10 seeking to take your deposition?
11 A No.
12 Q You didn't call John Gibson?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q Who called?
15 A I called a producer at MSNBC named
16 Keenan Block, and protested that you had
17 accused me falsely of using FBI files in an
18 improper fashion or in any fashion, and I was
19 outraged.
20 I called Mr. Block, because he is a
21 producer at MSNBC I know, I don't know
22 Mr. Gibson. I expressed severe anger and
68
1 outrage. I asked him to pass along that
2 correction.
3 I was very angry. I remember that
4 very well, because it was Ash Wednesday and I
5 was getting ready to go to Mass. I
6 subsequently left but I did not see, but was
7 told later that they did correct the record.
8 Q Is it not true that MSNBC offered
9 you an opportunity to come on the air to
10 correct it itself?
11 A I received a page while I was in
12 Mass that said that.
13 Q Mr. Begala, I recollect and the
14 tape speaks for itself, that immediately
15 after I made that statement, not the
16 statement you say but the statement that you
17 had given a speech saying that you had looked
18 through FBI files, there was a commercial
19 break, and when Mr. Gibson came back as
20 commentator he said, you had called and that,
21 in fact, he offered you the opportunity to
22 come on and you said you didn't want to.
69
1 Isn't that a correct recitation of
2 what occurred?
3 A No, sir. I can tell you what
4 occurred. What occurred was I called Keenan
5 Block. He is a producer of the network.
6 Actually, I think he produces the Brian
7 Williams show not the John Gibson show. I
8 didn't know that at the time.
9 I expressed my outrage to him. He
10 did not offer me a chance to go on, nor was I
11 interested. It was getting, the last Mass of
12 the day was about to occur at St. Matthews
13 and Mark and I had an obligation to attend
14 that, which I did.
15 While I was in Mass, I remember my
16 pager going off saying Keenan Block called
17 back and wants you to go on the show. I
18 ignored that.
19 Q If you had been there, according to
20 your recitation, would you have gone on the
21 show?
22 A I don't know. I just called and
70
1 expressed my outrage and then I went to
2 church.
3 Q When you talked to Keenan Block,
4 did you express any opinion about Larry
5 Klayman or Judicial Watch, or give them any
6 information about Larry Klayman or Judicial
7 Watch?
8 A I complained to him the joke I told
9 in the speech, that was a joke. That my
10 recollection was, that I had told Mr. Block,
11 that you had issued a press release that said
12 it was a joke. But on the air you had
13 dropped that part out, I thought in an effort
14 to smear me.
15 I made it very clear to Mr. Block
16 that I was very angry.
17 Q Did you say anything about me or
18 did you say anything about Judicial Watch?
19 A That is what I said about you.
20 Q Did you say anything else about
21 Judicial Watch or Larry Klayman?
22 A Not that I recall. I mean, I was
71
1 very critical of what you said about me. I
2 am still real angry about it.
3 Q Did you say anything else about
4 Larry Klayman or Judicial Watch to Mr. Keenan
5 Block?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Yes or no?
9 A I was enormously critical of what
10 you said.
11 Q My question is did you say anything
12 else about Larry Klayman or Judicial Watch?
13 A I asked answered it as best as I
14 can.
15 Q It calls for a yes or no, simple
16 question?
17 A To the best of my knowledge. I
18 called him. I expressed my outrage at what
19 you had said about me. I asked for some
20 correction of the record. I left the office.
21 Q That is all you said?
22 A That is all I remember.
72
1 Q That is all you remember. That
2 doesn't mean that is all you said, that is
3 all you remember?
4 A Right.
5 Q You didn't call me an SOB or
6 anything like that?
7 A I don't -- I would hope not. I
8 can't swear to that. I sometimes use foul
9 language myself.
10 Q You have no recollection of doing
11 that?
12 A But I wouldn't rule it out. I am
13 not proud of it, but that is part of my
14 common lexicon.
15 Q You didn't say nothing like Larry
16 Klayman is a Clinton hater and his groups are
17 Clinton haters?
18 A I may -- I wouldn't have said it
19 about the group. I may have said it you. I
20 don't remember saying it, though.
21 Q You may have said it about me
22 generally?
73
1 A I might have. I think you are
2 quite a critic of this administration and
3 this President.
4 Q That doesn't mean I am a Clinton
5 hater.
6 A You can take that up yourself. You
7 were on national television accusing me of
8 criminal, felonious, activity falsely -- and
9 I believe you knew it was false, Mr. Klayman.
10 Q Well, you said it, Mr. Begala.
11 A I said it as a joke.
12 Q Didn't you say you looked in FBI
13 files?
14 A I told a joke. The point of the
15 joke was irony. The point of the joke was
16 that it was not true. In fact its very
17 falseness conveyed -- excuse me, let me
18 finish, Mr. Klayman, this matters to me.
19 The very falseness of the statement
20 conveys its humor. It was obvious. It was
21 humorous, and it was taken as such by the
22 crowd, and also by the press in attendance.
74
1 Q Mr. Begala, isn't it true that you
2 made that statement, even assuming that what
3 you say is true, to send a message to
4 perceived Clinton adversaries that they
5 shouldn't mess with this administration?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Because if they do, you have access
8 to FBI files?
9 A No, sir, absolutely not. In fact,
10 if I can tell you for a minute, the
11 derivation of that joke. I have been telling
12 a variety, a version of that joke for five
13 years now, six years.
14 Originally, a friend of mine wrote
15 it for me. It was about George Bush, the
16 joke, which is not true, I want to say for
17 the records, is that upon meeting President
18 Bush, he was quite gracious and said to me,
19 son, now I have seen you on TV saying these
20 bad things about me, but now that I see you
21 in person, you are a lot better looking
22 person than in your passport file.
75
1 I have been telling that joke for a
2 number of years. I subsequently updated it
3 with a similarly absurd scenario.
4 Q What is funny, Mr. Begala, about
5 looking into the FBI files of Republicans?
6 A Absolutely nothing.
7 Q Then why do you make a joke about
8 it?
9 A Because it is absurd on its face
10 that I could, in a context of praising,
11 actually, my friend, my friends's wife, who
12 is a Republican, pointing out that there are
13 very good Republicans in this world.
14 It is an absurd statement designed
15 to elicit humor. It is a joke. It is absurd
16 in its obvious falseness, and just as absurd
17 as President Bush rifling passport files.
18 I did not -- President Bush never
19 said that. That is a joke. It is an absurd
20 and absurdly false statement, so completely
21 false as to elicit laughter.
22 I have to tell you that joke kills.
76
1 I have been telling it for six years, I got
2 to tell you. It works every time.
3 Q I believe it kills.
4 A It is a very funny joke.
5 Q It sends a message to people who
6 are adversaries, don't mess with us?
7 A No, sir, absolutely not. It is a
8 good joke, a funny joke, written by a
9 professional joke writer or screenwriter, or
10 again originally about President Bush and it
11 is so absurdly false -- that it gets a laugh.
12 Q The last several weeks, you have
13 issued a statement, publicly, have you not,
14 that it is time for the White House to
15 investigate the investigators, correct?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q It is time to investigate the
18 investigators? You have said that, haven't
19 you?
20 A I have called for an investigation
21 of leaks, but not by the White House.
22 Q You said it is time to investigate
77
1 the investigators?
2 A I don't remember that statement. I
3 remember being extraordinarily critical of an
4 ongoing series of leaks that I do believe
5 merit investigation.
6 Q Was that a joke too?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Time to investigate the
9 investigators?
10 A No, I don't remember saying that
11 exact phrase --
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. He didn't
13 say that he ever said, investigate the
14 investigators.
15 MR. ANDERSON: We have now been
16 here one hour you have not asked Mr. Begala
17 one question about his knowledge of the FBI
18 matters.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think you
20 have been here at all, because that is
21 exactly what I am asking about.
22 MR. ANDERSON: The record will
78
1 show.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
3 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
4 Exhibit 3.
5 (Begala Deposition Exhibit
6 No. 3 was marked for
7 identification.)
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Exhibit 3 is a report from the New
10 York Times dated February 9, 1998 by James
11 Benet, entitled: Washington Memo from
12 Whispered Secrets a Clamorous Debate.
13 Looking at the middle of the page,
14 third paragraph down: "The stakes of this
15 theorizing are rising. On Sunday, Paul
16 Begala, a senior advisor to Clinton stepped
17 up to the White House assault on Kenneth
18 Starr, the independent counsel, denouncing
19 him for "leaks and lies, and declaring, "it
20 is time to investigate the investigators."
21 Does that refresh your recollection
22 as to whether you made that statement?
79
1 A Um-hum.
2 Q You made that statement?
3 A I don't -- I see the news clipping.
4 Again, I have been quite public in calling
5 for an independent investigation of leaks
6 that have come out in the last few months.
7 Q Now, Kenneth Starr, you are aware,
8 is a previous attorney with the U.S.
9 Department of Justice, correct?
10 A Yes. Solicitor general, yes.
11 Q You are aware that, when you become
12 an employee of the Department of Justice, the
13 FBI conducts a background investigation,
14 correct?
15 A I would imagine that, yes.
16 Q You are also aware that, as part of
17 that background investigation, the FBI has a
18 file on Ken Starr, correct?
19 A I am not aware of that, but --
20 Q You are a lawyer, correct?
21 A I have never practiced, but I have
22 a law degree.
80
1 Q You are aware the FBI keeps files
2 when they do a background investigation?
3 A I would think so.
4 Q They have one on you, too, correct?
5 A I think so.
6 Q Therefore, you when say it is time
7 to investigate the investigators, one way you
8 could do that was to obtain Ken Starr's FBI
9 file, correct?
10 A No, sir. Absolutely not.
11 Q Why can't you do that?
12 A What I said and what I meant was we
13 need an independent investigation of the
14 leaks that had been so prevalent at that
15 time. I still believe it is necessary.
16 Q When you conduct an investigation
17 of Ken Starr, why can't you get his FBI file?
18 A I don't conduct investigations. I
19 called for an independent investigation,
20 investigation of a campaign of leaks.
21 Q But one way you could investigate
22 him is to get his FBI file?
81
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Why not?
3 A I don't do investigations.
4 Q I am talking about others who do
5 investigations?
6 A I did not at all suggest means or
7 methods. I suggested an independent -- I
8 still believe we need an independent
9 investigation of -- let me finish, sir -- of
10 what I believe is, has been an orchestrated
11 campaign of leaks.
12 Q When you take the two statements
13 together, that I reviewed the FBI files, it
14 is just a joke, Your Honor, you are talking
15 about Judge Lamberth, right?
16 A No, sir, I was not. I don't know
17 if I'd ever heard of him.
18 Q You were aware, when you made the
19 statement, that there was a class action
20 lawsuit filed by Judicial Watch against the
21 White House?
22 A Not, not really. Maybe, in the
82
1 vague sense I may have read a news article
2 about it. No. That is not what I was
3 referring to. I was trying to tell a joke.
4 Q Who was Your Honor?
5 A I was telling a joke. I was making
6 a point of the fact that there was a camera
7 in the room and again, telling a joke, again,
8 absurd in its obvious falseness, Mr. Klayman.
9 Q Are you denying that the White
10 House procured FBI files, contrary to FBI
11 procedures in the past, during the Clinton
12 administration? Are you denying that
13 statement?
14 A I don't have any knowledge of that.
15 Q Have you read about that in the
16 newspaper?
17 A I read stories about FBI files.
18 Q Are you aware that director Louie
19 Freeh called it an egregious violation of
20 privacy without justification?
21 A I am not aware of that.
22 Q You are a very knowledgeable man,
83
1 are you not?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, completely
3 vague question.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q He can respond?
6 A I know what I know.
7 Q Part of your duties and
8 responsibilities, both before you became a
9 member of the White House staff and after, is
10 to know what is going on in the political and
11 governmental world, is it not?
12 A When this story broke, I was living
13 in Texas, and I was doing corporate work and
14 teaching. And I didn't follow the story very
15 closely.
16 Q Are you saying, to this day, you
17 have no knowledge of any kind that FBI files
18 were procured incorrectly, to use a neutral
19 phrase, from the FBI by the White House?
20 A I have seen news articles to that
21 effect. But beyond that, I have no knowledge
22 whatsoever.
84
1 Q Have you ever discussed the
2 Filegate matter with anyone at the White
3 House?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Not one person?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Have you ever discussed the
8 Filegate matter with anyone else?
9 A Not that I remember, no.
10 Q I see, you don't remember. You are
11 not saying no?
12 A It as very broad question.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. He can
14 only testify as to what he remembers.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Then he doesn't have
16 to say.
17 THE WITNESS: It may have been when
18 I read the article, I may have commented on
19 it, but I doubt it. Because again I was
20 living a life where I was teaching and doing
21 corporate work. Those kinds of Washington
22 stories were very far from my existence at
85
1 the time. I don't remember commenting on it.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q So, you are saying categorically
4 that you never discussed the Filegate matter
5 with anyone? You just read an article, you
6 never discussed it with anyone?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
8 THE WITNESS: To the best of my
9 knowledge and recollection.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q No?
12 A Right.
13 Q Did you watch the O.J. Simpson case
14 on TV?
15 A Occasionally.
16 Q Remember when they asked the
17 question of Mark Ferman, whether he ever used
18 the N word and he said no?
19 A Yes.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Are you aware of the ramifications
86
1 when it turned out in fact he had? Are you
2 aware of that?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. You can
4 answer the question.
5 THE WITNESS: I remember the case.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
7 I asked the court reporter to mark as
8 Exhibit 4.
9 (Begala Deposition Exhibit
10 No. 4 was marked for
11 identification.)
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Showing you
13 Exhibit 4, Mr. Begala, this was a transcript
14 prepared by your counsel to the U.S.
15 Department of Justice of your speech in Miami
16 to the Democratic Business Council.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, you are
18 stating facts not testified to.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: It says U.S.
20 Department of Justice.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: That doesn't mean
22 that U.S. Department of Justice prepared it.
87
1 You need to ask him if he knows who prepared
2 it.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Do you know who prepared it?
5 A No, sir, I don't.
6 Q Have you seen this transcript
7 before?
8 A I have seen a transcript of this
9 speech.
10 Q Was it this transcript?
11 A It might be. This actually does
12 look a little bit different. Maybe because it
13 starts on page two --
14 Q Look at page 4.
15 A Page 4. Yes, sir.
16 Q Look down towards the lower part of
17 the page where it says Begala, right above
18 it, it says laughter?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q It says Begala: So, like, that was
21 like one of my first lessons that Bill
22 Clinton taught me and James and Mary
88
1 particularly have taught me that there are
2 some good reasons Republicans out there --
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, that is
4 not what it says.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q That there are some good -- I will
7 read it again.
8 "So, like, that was like one of my
9 first lessons that Bill Clinton taught me,
10 and James and Mary particularly have taught
11 me, that there are some good Republicans out
12 there, which is not something I would have
13 known just from reading their FBI files."
14 Laughter. "You know, I mean, that was just a
15 joke Your Honor." That is what you said at
16 the Democratic Business council?
17 A That was a joke I told there.
18 Again, the point being that one of my best
19 friends had married a Republican forcing me
20 to confront the reality that Mary is a good
21 person and she is a diehard Republican. And
22 sometimes -- I am speaking to a partisan
89
1 group -- I am trying to make the point that
2 even the most diehard Democrat has to
3 acknowledge that there are some very good
4 Republicans out there.
5 Q That may be something we can agree
6 on with regard to Mary Matalin.
7 A I love Mary. I am the godfather of
8 her baby. She is a nice person.
9 Q I am asking you this question, what
10 did you mean by, that was a joke, Your Honor?
11 A I was trying to get another laugh
12 out of it. It was just a cheap line. It was
13 also to stress it was so obviously, absurdly
14 a joke. Just another follow on cheap line
15 joke.
16 Q You are referring to Judge Royce
17 Lamberth?
18 A No, sir. I don't know that I ever
19 heard of him. I mean, I might have heard of
20 him --
21 Q Well, he is the judge who is in
22 charge --
90
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Let him finish his
2 answer.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Finish.
4 THE WITNESS: That is not what I
5 referring to.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q The judge who is in charge of the
8 Filegate class action lawsuit in court?
9 A That certainly was not on my mind.
10 I was not aware of his work or this suit at
11 the time I gave the speech. It was an
12 absurdly and certainly a false joke, the
13 derivation of which was a play on President
14 Bush, equally untrue, and I hope nobody
15 thinks President Bush did anything wrong
16 either.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: I object on the
18 characterization of that as a class action
19 lawsuit, because class action has not been
20 granted in this case.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I think, the court is
22 aware of the status of the case. It was
91
1 filed as a class action.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Mr. Begala, do you have any
4 knowledge of FBI files that were obtained by
5 the White House, that are subject of this
6 case, ever having been returned to FBI?
7 A I have no knowledge of that case at
8 all, sir.
9 Q So, as far as you know, they may
10 still be there?
11 A I have no knowledge of that case.
12 It is why I was frustrated being served with
13 a subpoena.
14 Q You say you discussed with James
15 Carville more than one time your
16 participation in this lawsuit and his?
17 A The fact that he and I had been
18 served and, also, I talked with him about
19 your appearance on MSNBC.
20 Q Tell me when was the next time you
21 talked to him?
22 A I don't remember the date but maybe
92
1 the date after you appeared on MSNBC, which
2 would have been a Thursday. I don't know the
3 date of the month.
4 Q Did he call you or you call him?
5 A I don't recall.
6 Q What was discussed? What did you
7 say?
8 A I told him what you had said on
9 MSNBC. I told him that you had stated,
10 without telling anyone that it was a joke,
11 bald faced --
12 Q I don't view it at as joke.
13 A An allegation --
14 MR. ANDERSON: Would you let him
15 finish his answer?
16 THE WITNESS: You also state it as
17 a joke in your own press release.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q I said you claimed it was a joke?
20 A If I may finish, I pointed out to
21 him that you had pretended that a joke that I
22 had made, that I believe you knew was false,
93
1 that you had knowledge of the falsity of the
2 statement, yet you went on national
3 television and accused me of a serious
4 felonious act. I was pretty angry about it.
5 Q What did he say?
6 A He said I should sue you.
7 Q What else did he say?
8 A He said you should talk to my
9 lawyer.
10 Q Who is his lawyer?
11 A Bill McDaniel.
12 Q Did you talk to his lawyer?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q When did you talk to Mr. McDaniel?
15 A The day subsequent to that.
16 Q How long did you talk to
17 Mr. McDaniel?
18 A I had lunch with him.
19 Q At what point, did you talk with
20 Carville again?
21 A I don't remember. We talk with
22 some frequency. We are close friends.
94
1 Q Have you talked to him again about
2 this case?
3 A Yes, I think -- about this question
4 that he is quite hot for me to sue you. He
5 has urged me to do that many times.
6 Q Many times. What other times did
7 he urge you to do it?
8 A Just in the last few days, just
9 again and again. James is a very relentless
10 man.
11 Q How many times did you talk to him
12 in the last few days?
13 A Several times.
14 Q Did James talk about his own
15 deposition?
16 A No. Except that the first time
17 saying that he was going to be out of town
18 that day. That is all I remember.
19 Q Was Mr. McDaniel going to represent
20 him in terms of the deposition of this case?
21 Do you have knowledge of that?
22 A He seemed to indicate that to me.
95
1 Q Where is Mr. Bill McDaniel located?
2 A I think his firm is in Baltimore.
3 Q Have you ever talked to Mary
4 Matalin about your participation in this
5 case?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Do you know whether the press
8 release was given by Mary Matalin, the one
9 identified as Exhibit 3, was that given by
10 Mary Matalin to James Carville?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Has he told you that?
13 A I don't know, he has not told me
14 anything about the press release.
15 Q Where was it faxed from?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q How did it get into your in box?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: That has been asked
19 and answered.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe, he remembers
21 now.
22 THE WITNESS: I didn't see anybody
96
1 put it in there. It sat in my in box.
2 Maybe, when I came back from my office.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Do you regularly get press releases
5 from Mary Matalin?
6 A No, not regularly, I wouldn't say.
7 Q Does Mary Matalin share information
8 with you about Republicans?
9 A No.
10 Q Or James?
11 A We are friends, we talk. I don't
12 know what you mean by share information.
13 Q If you need some information about
14 a Republican or Clinton adversary, have you
15 ever asked Mary for that information?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Have you ever been present in the
18 White House, either in terms of a
19 professional or a personal gathering where
20 Mary Matalin and James Carville were present?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Where was that?
97
1 A State dinner for Prime Minister
2 Blair.
3 Q Have you ever watched a movie with
4 Mary Matalin and James Carville in the White
5 House?
6 A In the White House? Not that I
7 recall.
8 Q Have they ever done that?
9 A I have no idea. You have to ask
10 them.
11 Q Let's go back to the issue of who
12 you talked to about your subpoena. In
13 addition to Mr. Carville, who else other than
14 the people you mentioned?
15 A I mentioned the lawyers. I,
16 obviously, mentioned it to my wife. I think
17 that is it. But I am not sure.
18 Q At the time that you were
19 consulting with Governor Clinton as to
20 whether to take his campaign on with James
21 Carville, did there come a point in time when
22 a formal agreement was entered into between
98
1 your firm, Carville and Begala, and Clinton?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Was that agreement put in writing?
4 A I don't remember.
5 Q Who would have it, if it exists?
6 A No, I don't know. James might.
7 Our firm, if I can elaborate, was very small.
8 We had very few clients. Most of our
9 relationships with our clients were handshake
10 deals as well.
11 I have been very fortunate that I
12 have worked for candidates and politicians
13 who are people of honor.
14 Q How much were you paid to handle
15 that campaign?
16 A Our fee began, my recollection is,
17 I might be wrong, my recollection is, our fee
18 was $15,000 a month until the Democratic
19 Convention when the governor was nominated;
20 and then for the remainder of the campaign,
21 my recollection is it was $25,000 a months
22 for the remainder of the campaign.
99
1 Q What were your duties and
2 responsibilities in taking on this
3 assignment, you and James Carville?
4 A James and I were strategists for
5 the campaign.
6 Q Were either of you campaign
7 managers?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Who was the campaign manager?
10 A David Wilhelm.
11 Q As part of your responsibilities
12 and duties as strategists, what specifically
13 were you to do?
14 A To set the strategy. To work with
15 the other consultants and staff. To help set
16 the direction of the campaign.
17 Q You were to know whether political
18 adversaries were going to attack the
19 President on particular issues, were you not?
20 That was part of your duties and
21 responsibilities?
22 A Can you clarify that? I don't want
100
1 to suggest that I had any ability to foresee
2 the future. Generally, when you go into a
3 campaign, people are going to criticize.
4 Q Let's get to the point. At what
5 point, did you discuss with Bill Clinton or
6 anyone else the adversaries that he faced in
7 the primary campaign to become the nominee of
8 the democratic party?
9 A My recollection it would have been
10 after we were hired on.
11 Q Did that occur in person?
12 A To the best of my recollection,
13 yes.
14 Q Where did it occur?
15 A Probably, in Little Rock.
16 Q Who was present during that
17 meeting?
18 A You know, James and I, I can't
19 remember. It is not like it was a particular
20 meeting. There was an ongoing effort to make
21 sure that we knew what we were running on,
22 what we were for and how we would advance