51 1 MS. SHAPIRO: I am sorry, I didn't 2 assert the objection. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Assert it. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, 5 attorney-client privilege and relevancy. He 6 is not authorized to disclose and he doesn't 7 need to disclose the specific conversation he 8 had with an attorney about this deposition. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did Mr. Ben-Veniste tell you, when 12 you didn't wanted to answer a question, you 13 could just say you didn't remember? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Who else did you talk with? 16 A I mentioned to James Carville, who 17 I saw had been similarly noticed, or deposed 18 or served, rather. It was in the paper this 19 morning, so a few people may have mentioned 20 it to me. 21 Q Did you discuss your deposition 22 with anyone at the White House? 52 1 A Not the deposition, no. The fact 2 that it was in the newspaper this morning, 3 which did not come from me, I might add, 4 several people mentioned that to me. 5 Q Did you discuss with anyone in the 6 White House counsel's office your deposition 7 here today, or another day? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Who? 10 A Ms. Paxton. 11 Q Anyone else? 12 A I mentioned it to Mr. Ruff. 13 Q Did Mr. Ruff say anything to you 14 after you mentioned it to him? I am not 15 asking what was said. Did he respond? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Just a moment. The 17 witness has answered, yes he had a 18 conversation. Beyond that, it would violate 19 the attorney-client privilege. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: The fact that there 21 was an utterance from Mr. Ruff would violate 22 the attorney privilege? 53 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, the fact that 2 whether Mr. Ruff had a response to him, yes. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify that. We 4 have gone through this kind of thing with 5 Justice lawyers before. I would hope that 6 you would have an opportunity, perhaps at the 7 next break, to consult with someone. There 8 is a law here. 9 I am not asking for any advice. I 10 am just asking for him to a identify whether 11 Mr. Ruff responded. 12 When you instruct the witness not 13 to answer, that is a potential contempt of 14 court. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't need a 16 lecture on the rules. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am putting you on 18 notice that -- 19 MS. SHAPIRO: Will you, please, let 20 me finish? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: We will move for 22 sanctions. I am asking you to correct it. 54 1 MS. SHAPIRO: I am asking you to 2 let me finish. I would like, one, to finish 3 whatever I say before you talk over it. 4 Two, the rules, specifically, state 5 that instruction not to answer on the basis 6 of privilege is appropriate. 7 If after this deposition you want 8 to move to compel, we would brief and support 9 that claim of privilege. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: What I am telling you 11 is that is frivolous. And I am putting you 12 on notice if you keep making those kinds of 13 objections, I will move to have you 14 sanctioned. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: I understand it -- 16 MR. KLAYMAN: You and your 17 colleagues. 18 MS. SHAPIRO: You can do what you 19 like. Thank you. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I am asking you at 21 the next break to get some advice on this, 22 because I am not asking for anything that 55 1 Mr. Ruff said in terms of specifics, but just 2 whether he responded. That is not covered by 3 privilege. 4 MS. PAXTON: Responded to what? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: To Mr. Begala telling 6 him that he was being deposed. Do you want 7 to reconsider whether he can answer that? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Nor at this point, 9 no. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you talk with anyone else at 13 the White House about your deposition before 14 Judicial Watch? 15 A I don't think so, no. Again it was 16 in the paper, so in the hallway a few people 17 said, I saw in the newspaper that you are 18 going to be deposed. 19 Q Who said that to you? 20 A I can't remember. 21 Q It happened to today? 22 A Yes, just different people said, 56 1 hey, either good luck or this is unfair. 2 Q You can't remember? 3 A Just in the hallway this morning, a 4 few people. I can't remember exactly 5 particular people. It was not a 6 conversation. It was literally passing in 7 the hall. 8 Q What time did this occur today? 9 A It was in the newspaper this 10 morning that I was going do be deposed. I 11 think that some folks, as I was walking to my 12 office said either, good luck or this is not 13 very fair, or comments of that nature. 14 Q Who said it wasn't fair? 15 A I don't know. I mean, I don't 16 know. I mean, I don't remember. 17 Q Do you frequently go down the 18 hallway, people talk to you and you don't 19 remember who they are? 20 A Casual hallway conversations are 21 not particularly noteworthy for me. They 22 don't make a big impression. Just hi, how 57 1 are you, or good luck today. 2 Q You don't look at the person? 3 A I am trying to be helpful. 4 Q I don't think you are trying to be 5 helpful. As long as you are making 6 gratuitous comments. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q I don't understand how you can't 10 remember someone greeting you in the hallway 11 today, and telling you it is not unfair. 12 That is today. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Is there a question 14 on the table? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Yes, can you tell me who greeted 17 you and made that comment? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: It has been asked and 19 answered. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Perhaps, his memory 21 is now refreshed. 22 MS. SHAPIRO: Will you, please, let 58 1 me finish what I say before you speak over 2 me? I think it is only courteous. 3 THE WITNESS: I didn't make a note. 4 It didn't make a big impression. I am trying 5 to be -- 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Were they male or female? 8 A As I came to work this morning, or 9 as I walked down the hall this morning, 10 people might have mentioned, hey, I saw in 11 the paper that you were going to be deposed. 12 Q More than one person? 13 A If you ask if I discussed, the 14 answer is no, I have not with those people. 15 But they were sort of, hey, how doing? Good 16 luck to you. In the hall this morning. 17 Q More than one person? 18 A I think. 19 Q Were they male or female? 20 A I don't remember. Again -- 21 MS. SHAPIRO: This is asked and 22 answered. 59 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You don't know whether they are 3 male or female? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Argumentative. 5 Irrelevant. I think we can move on. He 6 has -- 7 MR. KLAYMAN: You may not be the 8 one who decides whether we move on, 9 Ms. Shapiro. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I can state 11 that it has been asked and answered. And you 12 are being argumentative, at this point. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Were they male or female? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: He can only keep 16 repeating his answer. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am testing his 18 memory. It is a question of credibility. 19 MS. SHAPIRO: You are not entitled 20 to test his memory forever on the same 21 question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I never asked the 60 1 same question. I asked male or female. I am 2 trying to make it more general for you. 3 THE WITNESS: I remember coming out 4 of the men's room, and I saw Goody Marshall. 5 Thurgood Marshall. He expressed that this 6 was -- I don't remember the exact words. He 7 was surprised. He was amazed. It was a 8 passing conversation in the hallway. I don't 9 remember with any other specificity. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Anyone else you can now remember? 12 A No. When you said male or female, 13 I just remembered it was the men's room I was 14 coming out of. It was one second. 15 Q This is Goody Marshall? 16 A Thurgood Marshall. 17 Q How is the first name spelled? 18 A T-h-u-r-g-o-o-d. 19 Q The first name? 20 A Thurgood. 21 Q This is Thurgood marshals's son? 22 A This is the only Thurgood Marshall 61 1 I know. 2 Q What is his position at the White 3 House? 4 A He coordinates cabinet affairs, 5 assistant to the President for cabinet 6 affairs. 7 Q Anyone else that you remember? 8 A No, sir, no. I have tried very 9 hard on your prompting to rack my brain. 10 Q Have you talked about your 11 appearing before Judicial Watch with anyone 12 else, other than what you just mentioned? 13 A No, sir, not that I can recall. 14 Q Did you have one or more 15 conversations with Mr. Carville about your 16 appearance here today? 17 A Yes, about may appearance, no. 18 About the fact that there had been a notice 19 that we were going to be called or you put 20 out a press release, yes. 21 Q When did the first such 22 conversation occur? 62 1 A I guess about the time the press 2 release went out, the day the press release 3 came out. I guess this was last week. 4 Q How did you learn about the press 5 release? 6 A It was in my in box. 7 Q How did it get into your in box? 8 A I don't know. Someone faxed it to 9 me. 10 Q I will show you what I will ask the 11 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 2. 12 (Begala Deposition Exhibit 13 No. 2 was marked for 14 identification.) 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Showing you Exhibit 2, Mr. Begala, 17 is this the press release to which you are 18 referring? 19 A Yeah. Yes, it seems fair. 20 Q The top of this press release shows 21 the marking that it was faxed from Judicial 22 Watch to the Mary Matalin show, Mary Matalin. 63 1 Does this refresh your recollection as to who 2 provided you with a copy of the press 3 release? 4 A It was in my in box. I didn't ask 5 who sent it. It was a press release. It 6 didn't seem like a particularly private 7 document to me. 8 Q What happened after you observed 9 this press release in your in box? 10 A I rolled my eyes and set it down. 11 Q Did you make a call? 12 A No. 13 Q Did someone call you? Did 14 Mr. Carville call you? 15 A I talked to Mr. Carville. I don't 16 remember. It wasn't at that exact moment, I 17 can tell you that. It came in my in box. I 18 looked at it rolled my eyes, and went about 19 my day. 20 Q Did you talk to him in person or on 21 the phone? 22 A On the phone. 64 1 Q Did you call him or did he call 2 you? 3 A I don't recall. 4 Q When did that conversation take 5 place? 6 A I think the day that this came out, 7 or, maybe, the day after. I don't remember 8 exactly. It was timely with the release of 9 the press release. 10 Q What did you and Mr. Carville 11 discuss during the conversation? 12 A Our view, my view -- I will speak 13 for myself, that it seemed, frankly, absurd 14 to be subpoenaed for a quip, a joke. 15 Q Is that what you think you were 16 subpoenaed for? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Nothing else? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q What did Mr. Carville say to you? 21 I want you to tell me everything he said to 22 you during that conversation. 65 1 A Best as I can recall, he agreed 2 that it was absurd. I don't remember the 3 exact words that he used. 4 Q Did he use profanity? 5 A No. It would not have been very 6 noteworthy if he had. 7 Q Did he call me a twerp? 8 A No, sir, he did not. 9 Q Only subsequently? 10 A Subsequently, we had a second 11 conversation after you appeared on MSNBC. It 12 wasn't about the deposition. 13 Q How long did the first conversation 14 take place? 15 A It was not a very long 16 conversation. 17 Q Did he advise you that he had been 18 subpoenaed? 19 A He didn't say he had been 20 subpoenaed. He said, he had been asked -- I 21 don't know the legal formalities, but he had 22 been asked, and my recollection is that the 66 1 date that he had been asked to appear, he 2 told me, he was going to be out of town. 3 Q In fact he told you he wasn't going 4 to appear, didn't he? 5 A No, the thing recorded in the paper 6 that James was kind of eager to get involved 7 in the judicial proceedings for reasons known 8 only to himself. 9 No, he did say, the particular 10 date, I think it was March 10, that he was 11 going to be out of town. 12 Q You are aware that he told the 13 process server, there was an affidavit, that 14 he wasn't going to appear? 15 A No, sir, I am not aware of that. 16 Q You are not aware of that? 17 A No. 18 Q Sworn affidavit, you have never 19 seen it? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q What, if anything, did you say to 22 Mr. Carville about whether you would appear 67 1 for a deposition? 2 A It didn't come up. 3 Q Now, you say that I appeared on 4 MSNBC. This was with John Gibson? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q This was last week? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Is it correct that you called John 9 Gibson after I made a statement that we were 10 seeking to take your deposition? 11 A No. 12 Q You didn't call John Gibson? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q Who called? 15 A I called a producer at MSNBC named 16 Keenan Block, and protested that you had 17 accused me falsely of using FBI files in an 18 improper fashion or in any fashion, and I was 19 outraged. 20 I called Mr. Block, because he is a 21 producer at MSNBC I know, I don't know 22 Mr. Gibson. I expressed severe anger and 68 1 outrage. I asked him to pass along that 2 correction. 3 I was very angry. I remember that 4 very well, because it was Ash Wednesday and I 5 was getting ready to go to Mass. I 6 subsequently left but I did not see, but was 7 told later that they did correct the record. 8 Q Is it not true that MSNBC offered 9 you an opportunity to come on the air to 10 correct it itself? 11 A I received a page while I was in 12 Mass that said that. 13 Q Mr. Begala, I recollect and the 14 tape speaks for itself, that immediately 15 after I made that statement, not the 16 statement you say but the statement that you 17 had given a speech saying that you had looked 18 through FBI files, there was a commercial 19 break, and when Mr. Gibson came back as 20 commentator he said, you had called and that, 21 in fact, he offered you the opportunity to 22 come on and you said you didn't want to. 69 1 Isn't that a correct recitation of 2 what occurred? 3 A No, sir. I can tell you what 4 occurred. What occurred was I called Keenan 5 Block. He is a producer of the network. 6 Actually, I think he produces the Brian 7 Williams show not the John Gibson show. I 8 didn't know that at the time. 9 I expressed my outrage to him. He 10 did not offer me a chance to go on, nor was I 11 interested. It was getting, the last Mass of 12 the day was about to occur at St. Matthews 13 and Mark and I had an obligation to attend 14 that, which I did. 15 While I was in Mass, I remember my 16 pager going off saying Keenan Block called 17 back and wants you to go on the show. I 18 ignored that. 19 Q If you had been there, according to 20 your recitation, would you have gone on the 21 show? 22 A I don't know. I just called and 70 1 expressed my outrage and then I went to 2 church. 3 Q When you talked to Keenan Block, 4 did you express any opinion about Larry 5 Klayman or Judicial Watch, or give them any 6 information about Larry Klayman or Judicial 7 Watch? 8 A I complained to him the joke I told 9 in the speech, that was a joke. That my 10 recollection was, that I had told Mr. Block, 11 that you had issued a press release that said 12 it was a joke. But on the air you had 13 dropped that part out, I thought in an effort 14 to smear me. 15 I made it very clear to Mr. Block 16 that I was very angry. 17 Q Did you say anything about me or 18 did you say anything about Judicial Watch? 19 A That is what I said about you. 20 Q Did you say anything else about 21 Judicial Watch or Larry Klayman? 22 A Not that I recall. I mean, I was 71 1 very critical of what you said about me. I 2 am still real angry about it. 3 Q Did you say anything else about 4 Larry Klayman or Judicial Watch to Mr. Keenan 5 Block? 6 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Yes or no? 9 A I was enormously critical of what 10 you said. 11 Q My question is did you say anything 12 else about Larry Klayman or Judicial Watch? 13 A I asked answered it as best as I 14 can. 15 Q It calls for a yes or no, simple 16 question? 17 A To the best of my knowledge. I 18 called him. I expressed my outrage at what 19 you had said about me. I asked for some 20 correction of the record. I left the office. 21 Q That is all you said? 22 A That is all I remember. 72 1 Q That is all you remember. That 2 doesn't mean that is all you said, that is 3 all you remember? 4 A Right. 5 Q You didn't call me an SOB or 6 anything like that? 7 A I don't -- I would hope not. I 8 can't swear to that. I sometimes use foul 9 language myself. 10 Q You have no recollection of doing 11 that? 12 A But I wouldn't rule it out. I am 13 not proud of it, but that is part of my 14 common lexicon. 15 Q You didn't say nothing like Larry 16 Klayman is a Clinton hater and his groups are 17 Clinton haters? 18 A I may -- I wouldn't have said it 19 about the group. I may have said it you. I 20 don't remember saying it, though. 21 Q You may have said it about me 22 generally? 73 1 A I might have. I think you are 2 quite a critic of this administration and 3 this President. 4 Q That doesn't mean I am a Clinton 5 hater. 6 A You can take that up yourself. You 7 were on national television accusing me of 8 criminal, felonious, activity falsely -- and 9 I believe you knew it was false, Mr. Klayman. 10 Q Well, you said it, Mr. Begala. 11 A I said it as a joke. 12 Q Didn't you say you looked in FBI 13 files? 14 A I told a joke. The point of the 15 joke was irony. The point of the joke was 16 that it was not true. In fact its very 17 falseness conveyed -- excuse me, let me 18 finish, Mr. Klayman, this matters to me. 19 The very falseness of the statement 20 conveys its humor. It was obvious. It was 21 humorous, and it was taken as such by the 22 crowd, and also by the press in attendance. 74 1 Q Mr. Begala, isn't it true that you 2 made that statement, even assuming that what 3 you say is true, to send a message to 4 perceived Clinton adversaries that they 5 shouldn't mess with this administration? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Because if they do, you have access 8 to FBI files? 9 A No, sir, absolutely not. In fact, 10 if I can tell you for a minute, the 11 derivation of that joke. I have been telling 12 a variety, a version of that joke for five 13 years now, six years. 14 Originally, a friend of mine wrote 15 it for me. It was about George Bush, the 16 joke, which is not true, I want to say for 17 the records, is that upon meeting President 18 Bush, he was quite gracious and said to me, 19 son, now I have seen you on TV saying these 20 bad things about me, but now that I see you 21 in person, you are a lot better looking 22 person than in your passport file. 75 1 I have been telling that joke for a 2 number of years. I subsequently updated it 3 with a similarly absurd scenario. 4 Q What is funny, Mr. Begala, about 5 looking into the FBI files of Republicans? 6 A Absolutely nothing. 7 Q Then why do you make a joke about 8 it? 9 A Because it is absurd on its face 10 that I could, in a context of praising, 11 actually, my friend, my friends's wife, who 12 is a Republican, pointing out that there are 13 very good Republicans in this world. 14 It is an absurd statement designed 15 to elicit humor. It is a joke. It is absurd 16 in its obvious falseness, and just as absurd 17 as President Bush rifling passport files. 18 I did not -- President Bush never 19 said that. That is a joke. It is an absurd 20 and absurdly false statement, so completely 21 false as to elicit laughter. 22 I have to tell you that joke kills. 76 1 I have been telling it for six years, I got 2 to tell you. It works every time. 3 Q I believe it kills. 4 A It is a very funny joke. 5 Q It sends a message to people who 6 are adversaries, don't mess with us? 7 A No, sir, absolutely not. It is a 8 good joke, a funny joke, written by a 9 professional joke writer or screenwriter, or 10 again originally about President Bush and it 11 is so absurdly false -- that it gets a laugh. 12 Q The last several weeks, you have 13 issued a statement, publicly, have you not, 14 that it is time for the White House to 15 investigate the investigators, correct? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q It is time to investigate the 18 investigators? You have said that, haven't 19 you? 20 A I have called for an investigation 21 of leaks, but not by the White House. 22 Q You said it is time to investigate 77 1 the investigators? 2 A I don't remember that statement. I 3 remember being extraordinarily critical of an 4 ongoing series of leaks that I do believe 5 merit investigation. 6 Q Was that a joke too? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Time to investigate the 9 investigators? 10 A No, I don't remember saying that 11 exact phrase -- 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. He didn't 13 say that he ever said, investigate the 14 investigators. 15 MR. ANDERSON: We have now been 16 here one hour you have not asked Mr. Begala 17 one question about his knowledge of the FBI 18 matters. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think you 20 have been here at all, because that is 21 exactly what I am asking about. 22 MR. ANDERSON: The record will 78 1 show. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what 3 I will ask the court reporter to mark as 4 Exhibit 3. 5 (Begala Deposition Exhibit 6 No. 3 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Exhibit 3 is a report from the New 10 York Times dated February 9, 1998 by James 11 Benet, entitled: Washington Memo from 12 Whispered Secrets a Clamorous Debate. 13 Looking at the middle of the page, 14 third paragraph down: "The stakes of this 15 theorizing are rising. On Sunday, Paul 16 Begala, a senior advisor to Clinton stepped 17 up to the White House assault on Kenneth 18 Starr, the independent counsel, denouncing 19 him for "leaks and lies, and declaring, "it 20 is time to investigate the investigators." 21 Does that refresh your recollection 22 as to whether you made that statement? 79 1 A Um-hum. 2 Q You made that statement? 3 A I don't -- I see the news clipping. 4 Again, I have been quite public in calling 5 for an independent investigation of leaks 6 that have come out in the last few months. 7 Q Now, Kenneth Starr, you are aware, 8 is a previous attorney with the U.S. 9 Department of Justice, correct? 10 A Yes. Solicitor general, yes. 11 Q You are aware that, when you become 12 an employee of the Department of Justice, the 13 FBI conducts a background investigation, 14 correct? 15 A I would imagine that, yes. 16 Q You are also aware that, as part of 17 that background investigation, the FBI has a 18 file on Ken Starr, correct? 19 A I am not aware of that, but -- 20 Q You are a lawyer, correct? 21 A I have never practiced, but I have 22 a law degree. 80 1 Q You are aware the FBI keeps files 2 when they do a background investigation? 3 A I would think so. 4 Q They have one on you, too, correct? 5 A I think so. 6 Q Therefore, you when say it is time 7 to investigate the investigators, one way you 8 could do that was to obtain Ken Starr's FBI 9 file, correct? 10 A No, sir. Absolutely not. 11 Q Why can't you do that? 12 A What I said and what I meant was we 13 need an independent investigation of the 14 leaks that had been so prevalent at that 15 time. I still believe it is necessary. 16 Q When you conduct an investigation 17 of Ken Starr, why can't you get his FBI file? 18 A I don't conduct investigations. I 19 called for an independent investigation, 20 investigation of a campaign of leaks. 21 Q But one way you could investigate 22 him is to get his FBI file? 81 1 A No, sir. 2 Q Why not? 3 A I don't do investigations. 4 Q I am talking about others who do 5 investigations? 6 A I did not at all suggest means or 7 methods. I suggested an independent -- I 8 still believe we need an independent 9 investigation of -- let me finish, sir -- of 10 what I believe is, has been an orchestrated 11 campaign of leaks. 12 Q When you take the two statements 13 together, that I reviewed the FBI files, it 14 is just a joke, Your Honor, you are talking 15 about Judge Lamberth, right? 16 A No, sir, I was not. I don't know 17 if I'd ever heard of him. 18 Q You were aware, when you made the 19 statement, that there was a class action 20 lawsuit filed by Judicial Watch against the 21 White House? 22 A Not, not really. Maybe, in the 82 1 vague sense I may have read a news article 2 about it. No. That is not what I was 3 referring to. I was trying to tell a joke. 4 Q Who was Your Honor? 5 A I was telling a joke. I was making 6 a point of the fact that there was a camera 7 in the room and again, telling a joke, again, 8 absurd in its obvious falseness, Mr. Klayman. 9 Q Are you denying that the White 10 House procured FBI files, contrary to FBI 11 procedures in the past, during the Clinton 12 administration? Are you denying that 13 statement? 14 A I don't have any knowledge of that. 15 Q Have you read about that in the 16 newspaper? 17 A I read stories about FBI files. 18 Q Are you aware that director Louie 19 Freeh called it an egregious violation of 20 privacy without justification? 21 A I am not aware of that. 22 Q You are a very knowledgeable man, 83 1 are you not? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, completely 3 vague question. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q He can respond? 6 A I know what I know. 7 Q Part of your duties and 8 responsibilities, both before you became a 9 member of the White House staff and after, is 10 to know what is going on in the political and 11 governmental world, is it not? 12 A When this story broke, I was living 13 in Texas, and I was doing corporate work and 14 teaching. And I didn't follow the story very 15 closely. 16 Q Are you saying, to this day, you 17 have no knowledge of any kind that FBI files 18 were procured incorrectly, to use a neutral 19 phrase, from the FBI by the White House? 20 A I have seen news articles to that 21 effect. But beyond that, I have no knowledge 22 whatsoever. 84 1 Q Have you ever discussed the 2 Filegate matter with anyone at the White 3 House? 4 A No, sir. 5 Q Not one person? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Have you ever discussed the 8 Filegate matter with anyone else? 9 A Not that I remember, no. 10 Q I see, you don't remember. You are 11 not saying no? 12 A It as very broad question. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. He can 14 only testify as to what he remembers. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Then he doesn't have 16 to say. 17 THE WITNESS: It may have been when 18 I read the article, I may have commented on 19 it, but I doubt it. Because again I was 20 living a life where I was teaching and doing 21 corporate work. Those kinds of Washington 22 stories were very far from my existence at 85 1 the time. I don't remember commenting on it. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So, you are saying categorically 4 that you never discussed the Filegate matter 5 with anyone? You just read an article, you 6 never discussed it with anyone? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered. 8 THE WITNESS: To the best of my 9 knowledge and recollection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q No? 12 A Right. 13 Q Did you watch the O.J. Simpson case 14 on TV? 15 A Occasionally. 16 Q Remember when they asked the 17 question of Mark Ferman, whether he ever used 18 the N word and he said no? 19 A Yes. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Are you aware of the ramifications 86 1 when it turned out in fact he had? Are you 2 aware of that? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. You can 4 answer the question. 5 THE WITNESS: I remember the case. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what 7 I asked the court reporter to mark as 8 Exhibit 4. 9 (Begala Deposition Exhibit 10 No. 4 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Showing you 13 Exhibit 4, Mr. Begala, this was a transcript 14 prepared by your counsel to the U.S. 15 Department of Justice of your speech in Miami 16 to the Democratic Business Council. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, you are 18 stating facts not testified to. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: It says U.S. 20 Department of Justice. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: That doesn't mean 22 that U.S. Department of Justice prepared it. 87 1 You need to ask him if he knows who prepared 2 it. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you know who prepared it? 5 A No, sir, I don't. 6 Q Have you seen this transcript 7 before? 8 A I have seen a transcript of this 9 speech. 10 Q Was it this transcript? 11 A It might be. This actually does 12 look a little bit different. Maybe because it 13 starts on page two -- 14 Q Look at page 4. 15 A Page 4. Yes, sir. 16 Q Look down towards the lower part of 17 the page where it says Begala, right above 18 it, it says laughter? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q It says Begala: So, like, that was 21 like one of my first lessons that Bill 22 Clinton taught me and James and Mary 88 1 particularly have taught me that there are 2 some good reasons Republicans out there -- 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, that is 4 not what it says. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q That there are some good -- I will 7 read it again. 8 "So, like, that was like one of my 9 first lessons that Bill Clinton taught me, 10 and James and Mary particularly have taught 11 me, that there are some good Republicans out 12 there, which is not something I would have 13 known just from reading their FBI files." 14 Laughter. "You know, I mean, that was just a 15 joke Your Honor." That is what you said at 16 the Democratic Business council? 17 A That was a joke I told there. 18 Again, the point being that one of my best 19 friends had married a Republican forcing me 20 to confront the reality that Mary is a good 21 person and she is a diehard Republican. And 22 sometimes -- I am speaking to a partisan 89 1 group -- I am trying to make the point that 2 even the most diehard Democrat has to 3 acknowledge that there are some very good 4 Republicans out there. 5 Q That may be something we can agree 6 on with regard to Mary Matalin. 7 A I love Mary. I am the godfather of 8 her baby. She is a nice person. 9 Q I am asking you this question, what 10 did you mean by, that was a joke, Your Honor? 11 A I was trying to get another laugh 12 out of it. It was just a cheap line. It was 13 also to stress it was so obviously, absurdly 14 a joke. Just another follow on cheap line 15 joke. 16 Q You are referring to Judge Royce 17 Lamberth? 18 A No, sir. I don't know that I ever 19 heard of him. I mean, I might have heard of 20 him -- 21 Q Well, he is the judge who is in 22 charge -- 90 1 MS. SHAPIRO: Let him finish his 2 answer. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: Finish. 4 THE WITNESS: That is not what I 5 referring to. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q The judge who is in charge of the 8 Filegate class action lawsuit in court? 9 A That certainly was not on my mind. 10 I was not aware of his work or this suit at 11 the time I gave the speech. It was an 12 absurdly and certainly a false joke, the 13 derivation of which was a play on President 14 Bush, equally untrue, and I hope nobody 15 thinks President Bush did anything wrong 16 either. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: I object on the 18 characterization of that as a class action 19 lawsuit, because class action has not been 20 granted in this case. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I think, the court is 22 aware of the status of the case. It was 91 1 filed as a class action. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Mr. Begala, do you have any 4 knowledge of FBI files that were obtained by 5 the White House, that are subject of this 6 case, ever having been returned to FBI? 7 A I have no knowledge of that case at 8 all, sir. 9 Q So, as far as you know, they may 10 still be there? 11 A I have no knowledge of that case. 12 It is why I was frustrated being served with 13 a subpoena. 14 Q You say you discussed with James 15 Carville more than one time your 16 participation in this lawsuit and his? 17 A The fact that he and I had been 18 served and, also, I talked with him about 19 your appearance on MSNBC. 20 Q Tell me when was the next time you 21 talked to him? 22 A I don't remember the date but maybe 92 1 the date after you appeared on MSNBC, which 2 would have been a Thursday. I don't know the 3 date of the month. 4 Q Did he call you or you call him? 5 A I don't recall. 6 Q What was discussed? What did you 7 say? 8 A I told him what you had said on 9 MSNBC. I told him that you had stated, 10 without telling anyone that it was a joke, 11 bald faced -- 12 Q I don't view it at as joke. 13 A An allegation -- 14 MR. ANDERSON: Would you let him 15 finish his answer? 16 THE WITNESS: You also state it as 17 a joke in your own press release. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q I said you claimed it was a joke? 20 A If I may finish, I pointed out to 21 him that you had pretended that a joke that I 22 had made, that I believe you knew was false, 93 1 that you had knowledge of the falsity of the 2 statement, yet you went on national 3 television and accused me of a serious 4 felonious act. I was pretty angry about it. 5 Q What did he say? 6 A He said I should sue you. 7 Q What else did he say? 8 A He said you should talk to my 9 lawyer. 10 Q Who is his lawyer? 11 A Bill McDaniel. 12 Q Did you talk to his lawyer? 13 A Yes, I did. 14 Q When did you talk to Mr. McDaniel? 15 A The day subsequent to that. 16 Q How long did you talk to 17 Mr. McDaniel? 18 A I had lunch with him. 19 Q At what point, did you talk with 20 Carville again? 21 A I don't remember. We talk with 22 some frequency. We are close friends. 94 1 Q Have you talked to him again about 2 this case? 3 A Yes, I think -- about this question 4 that he is quite hot for me to sue you. He 5 has urged me to do that many times. 6 Q Many times. What other times did 7 he urge you to do it? 8 A Just in the last few days, just 9 again and again. James is a very relentless 10 man. 11 Q How many times did you talk to him 12 in the last few days? 13 A Several times. 14 Q Did James talk about his own 15 deposition? 16 A No. Except that the first time 17 saying that he was going to be out of town 18 that day. That is all I remember. 19 Q Was Mr. McDaniel going to represent 20 him in terms of the deposition of this case? 21 Do you have knowledge of that? 22 A He seemed to indicate that to me. 95 1 Q Where is Mr. Bill McDaniel located? 2 A I think his firm is in Baltimore. 3 Q Have you ever talked to Mary 4 Matalin about your participation in this 5 case? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Do you know whether the press 8 release was given by Mary Matalin, the one 9 identified as Exhibit 3, was that given by 10 Mary Matalin to James Carville? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Has he told you that? 13 A I don't know, he has not told me 14 anything about the press release. 15 Q Where was it faxed from? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q How did it get into your in box? 18 MS. SHAPIRO: That has been asked 19 and answered. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe, he remembers 21 now. 22 THE WITNESS: I didn't see anybody 96 1 put it in there. It sat in my in box. 2 Maybe, when I came back from my office. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Do you regularly get press releases 5 from Mary Matalin? 6 A No, not regularly, I wouldn't say. 7 Q Does Mary Matalin share information 8 with you about Republicans? 9 A No. 10 Q Or James? 11 A We are friends, we talk. I don't 12 know what you mean by share information. 13 Q If you need some information about 14 a Republican or Clinton adversary, have you 15 ever asked Mary for that information? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q Have you ever been present in the 18 White House, either in terms of a 19 professional or a personal gathering where 20 Mary Matalin and James Carville were present? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Where was that? 97 1 A State dinner for Prime Minister 2 Blair. 3 Q Have you ever watched a movie with 4 Mary Matalin and James Carville in the White 5 House? 6 A In the White House? Not that I 7 recall. 8 Q Have they ever done that? 9 A I have no idea. You have to ask 10 them. 11 Q Let's go back to the issue of who 12 you talked to about your subpoena. In 13 addition to Mr. Carville, who else other than 14 the people you mentioned? 15 A I mentioned the lawyers. I, 16 obviously, mentioned it to my wife. I think 17 that is it. But I am not sure. 18 Q At the time that you were 19 consulting with Governor Clinton as to 20 whether to take his campaign on with James 21 Carville, did there come a point in time when 22 a formal agreement was entered into between 98 1 your firm, Carville and Begala, and Clinton? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Was that agreement put in writing? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q Who would have it, if it exists? 6 A No, I don't know. James might. 7 Our firm, if I can elaborate, was very small. 8 We had very few clients. Most of our 9 relationships with our clients were handshake 10 deals as well. 11 I have been very fortunate that I 12 have worked for candidates and politicians 13 who are people of honor. 14 Q How much were you paid to handle 15 that campaign? 16 A Our fee began, my recollection is, 17 I might be wrong, my recollection is, our fee 18 was $15,000 a month until the Democratic 19 Convention when the governor was nominated; 20 and then for the remainder of the campaign, 21 my recollection is it was $25,000 a months 22 for the remainder of the campaign. 99 1 Q What were your duties and 2 responsibilities in taking on this 3 assignment, you and James Carville? 4 A James and I were strategists for 5 the campaign. 6 Q Were either of you campaign 7 managers? 8 A No, sir. 9 Q Who was the campaign manager? 10 A David Wilhelm. 11 Q As part of your responsibilities 12 and duties as strategists, what specifically 13 were you to do? 14 A To set the strategy. To work with 15 the other consultants and staff. To help set 16 the direction of the campaign. 17 Q You were to know whether political 18 adversaries were going to attack the 19 President on particular issues, were you not? 20 That was part of your duties and 21 responsibilities? 22 A Can you clarify that? I don't want 100 1 to suggest that I had any ability to foresee 2 the future. Generally, when you go into a 3 campaign, people are going to criticize. 4 Q Let's get to the point. At what 5 point, did you discuss with Bill Clinton or 6 anyone else the adversaries that he faced in 7 the primary campaign to become the nominee of 8 the democratic party? 9 A My recollection it would have been 10 after we were hired on. 11 Q Did that occur in person? 12 A To the best of my recollection, 13 yes. 14 Q Where did it occur? 15 A Probably, in Little Rock. 16 Q Who was present during that 17 meeting? 18 A You know, James and I, I can't 19 remember. It is not like it was a particular 20 meeting. There was an ongoing effort to make 21 sure that we knew what we were running on, 22 what we were for and how we would advance
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