351
1 Ms. Paxton who presented it to you?
2 A No, someone else. I didn't know
3 who it was. I didn't know the person.
4 Q You just signed it?
5 A No, I read it carefully.
6 Q Did you sign it at that time when
7 it was brought back to you after the second
8 meeting with Ms. Paxton?
9 A My recollection was yes, I signed
10 it at my desk. Someone brought it to me. I
11 didn't ask who it was. They just said here
12 you go. I read it. It looks like my
13 knowledge. I signed it.
14 (Begala Deposition Exhibit
15 No. 14 was marked for
16 identification.)
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
18 I will ask the reporter to mark as Exhibit
19 Number 14, which is your affidavit.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Can we take a break?
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We will go off video
22 record at 4:36.
352
1 (Recess)
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: On video record
3 at 4:44.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q This is Exhibit 14, an affidavit
6 this which you have submitted in this case.
7 On paragraph it says, "in fact, I have no
8 information to suggest that any individual in
9 the White House has used FBI background files
10 for any improper purpose."
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Who came up with the phrase
13 "improper purpose"?
14 A I might have. I don't know. I
15 don't remember.
16 Q What did you mean by improper?
17 A I mean --
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I think I have your
19 work product here. You gave me the wrong
20 copy.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
353
1 Q Who came up the with the phrase
2 improper purpose?
3 A I can't recall. It may have been
4 mine. I adopt it as mine. I'm responsible
5 for it.
6 Q It was actually written by someone
7 in the White House counsel's office?
8 A That might have been a phrase I
9 changed. I don't recall. It is mine, for
10 purposes of responsibility and
11 accountability, feel free to quiz me about
12 it.
13 Q In fact, similar phraseology has
14 been used recently with regard to the
15 Presidents's relationship with Monica
16 Lewinsky? No improper relationship, correct?
17 A That is not the adjective I have
18 heard.
19 Q Improper?
20 A Correct.
21 Q What did you mean by improper when
22 you adopted it?
354
1 A I meant any use or misuse of FBI
2 files.
3 Q How do you define that?
4 A I have no knowledge of any use or
5 misuse at all, for any purposes. I don't
6 know how they even use them for proper
7 purposes.
8 Q Why did you say improper purposes?
9 A Because my presumption was that
10 this was a suit about improper activity or
11 there wouldn't be a lawsuit.
12 Let me clarify, since you got me
13 here on the record. I have no knowledge of
14 any use or misuse of FBI files for any
15 purpose. I don't deal with the FBI as part
16 of my job, with the exception of going
17 through my own background check or being
18 asked about other people who the FBI was
19 doing a background check on. I don't --
20 Q Those are your words?
21 A Right. Improper is my word. What
22 I mean by that --
355
1 Q Which you adopted from whoever
2 wrote the affidavit?
3 A It is mine, I am fully responsible
4 for it. I know of no improper use of FBI
5 files.
6 Q Why didn't you say I know of no
7 use, one way or the other?
8 A I don't see any need to amend it.
9 I don't understand what we are jousting
10 about. I said it, I signed it. I mean it.
11 I know of no use or misuse. Any improper use
12 of FBI files at all and I take you at your
13 word that you are serious about this.
14 Believe me, I am serious about it too. I
15 don't know any use or misuse of FBI files.
16 Q Surely you know use of FBI files
17 for background checks?
18 A I have a sense, because I have had
19 my background checked.
20 Q That is a use, is it not.
21 A I have never, myself, been exposed
22 to how, in fact, they are used.
356
1 Q That is a use, is it not?
2 A I have no knowledge of how they are
3 used.
4 Q You just said you have no knowledge
5 of any use.
6 A I know they exist.
7 Q And you do not have any knowledge
8 of how they are used?
9 A I honestly don't. I don't know who
10 gets them. I don't know who reviews them. I
11 don't know what they do with them.
12 Q I didn't ask you if you knew how.
13 I asked you if you had knowledge how they
14 were used for some purpose, and they are used
15 for background checks?
16 A Presumably, but I don't know how
17 they are used. I do not know. I don't know
18 who gets them. I don't know who uses them.
19 It's not anything that is part of my duties
20 in the White House.
21 Q Paragraph 6, "I have never, in my
22 current position as an EOP employee, or my
357
1 previous dealings with the White House, had
2 any responsibility for handling any FBI
3 related matters." Who wrote that?
4 A Those are my words. I don't know
5 who actually did the drafting, but those are
6 my words.
7 Q Those are your exact words?
8 A I will restate them for the record.
9 I have never in my current position as an EOP
10 employee, or in my previous dealings with the
11 White House, had any responsibility for
12 handling any FBI related matters.
13 Q Now, we identified two documents
14 that made reference to FBI files earlier
15 today, did we not?
16 A Yes, sir. They were summaries of
17 political responses to investigations on
18 Capitol Hill.
19 Q And they made reference to FBI
20 related matters?
21 A But not to their use or misuse.
22 They were related to investigations that were
358
1 going on that include that topic in a list of
2 twenty other or so investigations.
3 Q This paragraph says nothing about
4 use or misuse.
5 A I have never had any responsibility
6 for handling any FBI related matters.
7 Q Paragraph 7, first line. "I've had
8 no first hand knowledge of any facts relating
9 to the so called FBI files matter."
10 Is that your statement?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you adopt that as true?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Showing you Exhibits 8 and 9, those
15 documents do relate to FBI file matters,
16 don't they?
17 A They do. That is not any first
18 hand knowledge on my part. I had documents
19 in my files that made a passing reference to
20 investigations, and a long list of
21 investigations, one of which was Congressman
22 Klinger's investigation into the FBI files.
359
1 That in no way suggests that I have
2 any knowledge, or first hand knowledge,
3 certainly, of any facts related to the so
4 called FBI files.
5 Q You have first hand knowledge of
6 these documents.
7 A Those are not facts. Those are not
8 facts relating to the so called FBI files
9 matter.
10 Q These documents do not contain
11 facts, is that what you are saying?
12 A They are not facts relating to the
13 FBI files. They are simply a statement that
14 Congressman Klinger is conducting an
15 investigation.
16 Q Now these documents were in your
17 files at the time you signed this affidavit,
18 were they not, Exhibit 7 and 8?
19 A Yes, sir. I don't see that as
20 inconsistent. I have no first hand knowledge
21 of any facts relating to so called FBI files.
22 Q You didn't make reference to these
360
1 documents in your affidavit, did you?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q Look at your affidavit.
4 A That's correct. I'm not fully
5 certain that these are responsive, but again
6 in the interest of full compliance and
7 disclosure, I produced them anyway.
8 Q The documents speak for themselves.
9 A Yes, sir, they do. I think you
10 make a very strong case that they are not
11 responsive, but again, in the interest of
12 good faith and full disclosure, even a
13 passing reference to a Congressional inquiry,
14 not asserting any facts or first hand
15 knowledge, I produced.
16 Q Produced them today, correct?
17 A I produced them. I could argue
18 again, I'm not trying to be a lawyer, but I
19 could argue that they are not responsive, and
20 yet, since they even had a passing reference
21 to that topic I produced them.
22 Q Mr. Begala, if the court had
361
1 quashed your deposition, you never would have
2 produced anything to us, correct?
3 A I have no idea. I don't know how
4 the process works.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. It calls
6 for a legal conclusion.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You never asked, did you?
9 A I don't have enough expertise to
10 know the process. This is my first
11 deposition.
12 Q So if the judge had quashed your
13 deposition yesterday, we never would have
14 known about these documents.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Object, calls for a
16 legal conclusion, that he certainly can't
17 testify to.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Have you discussed that with your
20 lawyer?
21 A No, I have no knowledge of how the
22 process, system works here.
362
1 Q You are a lawyer.
2 A I'm a lawyer, but I never
3 practiced. I have a law degree. I'm
4 inactive in the bar.
5 Again, I think you could make an
6 argument, or certainly a real lawyer could,
7 that these are not responsive, but since they
8 even have a passing reference to a
9 Congressional investigation that refers to
10 the same general topic area as your lawsuit,
11 I produced them.
12 Q So, now you are putting on your
13 lawyer's hat, is that what you are doing?
14 You are making a legal argument for me?
15 A I'm telling you that this, I think,
16 is proof of good faith and over compliance.
17 Q So in the previous question you
18 weren't a lawyer, but in this question you
19 are a lawyer?
20 A I am particularly disclaiming any
21 expertise in -- No, I am not saying I am a
22 lawyer. No, I am not appearing before you as
363
1 an attorney.
2 Q One could make the argument that
3 these aren't responsive. That's a lawyer's
4 argument, isn't it?
5 A Yeah, one could, and a lawyer
6 could.
7 Q And you are a lawyer?
8 A I'm not presenting myself to you as
9 one.
10 Q Well, you are a member of the
11 Pennsylvania bar.
12 A Yes, I am. Inactive member.
13 Q Paragraph 7 also says you have no
14 first hand knowledge of any facts. How do
15 you define the words "first hand"?
16 A I have no knowledge that I gained
17 myself, except what I know about this, I know
18 through press accounts.
19 Q The phraseology "first hand
20 knowledge," that isn't yours, is it? You
21 adopted that?
22 A If I adopt it, it is mine. I'm
364
1 responsible for it. I will be happy to
2 answer any questions that you have about it.
3 I have no first hand knowledge about it.
4 Q A number of the witnesses leaving
5 the Lewinsky grand jury recently also used
6 the word "first hand knowledge." Did you
7 know that?
8 A I don't know that.
9 Q Is it a standard catch phrase in
10 the White House?
11 A No, it is not a standard catch
12 phrase in the White House.
13 Q Used by the White House counsel's
14 office?
15 A Not that I know of. First hand
16 knowledge is a very common phrase.
17 Q Now if you read a newspaper, and
18 you get knowledge from the newspaper, isn't
19 that first hand knowledge?
20 A No, I don't think so at all,
21 believe me. I deal with the press enough to
22 know that very little in there you should
365
1 take as first hand knowledge.
2 Q It is first hand that you looked at
3 the paper?
4 A Right. But that is not first hand
5 knowledge of any facts relating to the so
6 called FBI files matter.
7 Q Then it says in paragraph 7, "to
8 the best of my recollection".
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q That means you are not sure whether
11 you remember.
12 A In searching my memory the best
13 that I can.
14 Q Which at this point was blank,
15 correct?
16 A To the best of my recollection,
17 I've had no conversations with anyone in the
18 White House concerning the FBI files matter.
19 Q Who came up with the phrase to the
20 best of my recollection?
21 A That is a very common phrase.
22 Q Is it one that you use frequently?
366
1 A I certainly used it today.
2 Q No question about that. Probably
3 over a thousand times.
4 A Because I am quite impressed with
5 the gravity of being under oath. Maybe
6 people who are more experienced at this are
7 more casual about it. I'm not. I'm very
8 serious about this, and to the best of my
9 recollection, I have no conversations with --
10 Q I'll take you to the period when I
11 told you that I would stipulate that
12 everything was according to your best
13 recollection.
14 A I have a right to express myself as
15 best I can and as accurately as I can.
16 Q Do you have knowledge outside of
17 press accounts about the FBI files matter?
18 A No. What you've told me, what I've
19 learned in this session, certainly, but
20 outside of that, and I didn't pay terribly
21 close attention to the press accounts because
22 it was not very important to my life at that
367
1 time.
2 Q Paragraph 8. "In response to an
3 EOP wide directive issued by White House
4 counsel's office in connection with this
5 case, I searched my files and computer for
6 responsive documents."
7 Do you have a copy of that EOP-wide
8 directive?
9 A I do not.
10 Q I'm going to ask that it be
11 produced. Would you produce that for me?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't know.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q What did that EOP wide directive
15 say?
16 A My recollection it was produce
17 documents about the use of FBI files.
18 Q One page, two pages?
19 A My recollection was it was one or
20 two pages. It was brief.
21 Q Where is that today? Did you file
22 that?
368
1 A I don't know. I don't remember.
2 Q Then it says, "I searched my files
3 and computer for responsive documents."
4 How did you go about searching your
5 files?
6 A I talked to my assistant. I asked
7 her if she had any sense that we might have
8 anything about this. I did not work here at
9 the time, so I thought it highly unlikely
10 that I would have anything.
11 Q In fact, you didn't search the
12 files yourself? You asked the assistant to
13 do that?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And it was only after you decided
16 to challenge the notice of deposition that
17 you searched the files yourself.
18 A I don't remember exactly when it
19 was. I personally went through one file that
20 had other materials about Arlington Cemetery,
21 found these two documents in there and
22 produced them.
369
1 Q But you didn't search all of your
2 files, did you? You searched where you
3 thought the documents might be?
4 A No, I don't have very many files.
5 I haven't been there very long.
6 Q But you didn't search all of your
7 files, did you?
8 A I or my assistant did.
9 Q So you can't tell me today that you
10 searched all the files?
11 A I can today. My assistant has gone
12 through and I --
13 Q I'm not talking about your
14 assistant. I'm talking about you,
15 personally.
16 A I have personally looked everywhere
17 I could think of to find them. On my desk,
18 which is kind of cluttered, and these two
19 documents which make only passing references,
20 are the only ones that have any reference to
21 that.
22 Again, that makes sense to me since
370
1 I did not work in the White House when that
2 story erupted. I did not involve myself in
3 it because I lived a long way away.
4 So being that I have only been at
5 the White House for about six months, I
6 looked at the files and found a particular
7 folder with other matters about Arlington
8 Cemetery, which is sort of an issue that I
9 have worked on.
10 Q And it was it at that point that
11 you looked at it?
12 A I looked through that file, and
13 looked at every page in it, and found those
14 two passing references and took them to
15 counsel's office immediately.
16 Q That is the extent of your
17 involvement?
18 A I made sure that my assistant
19 understood the gravity of this. She keeps
20 the files; I don't. She has a better sense
21 of what is in my files; I don't.
22 Q But she never said to her, bring me
371
1 every conceivable file that may has
2 something --
3 A That is not precisely what I said.
4 That is generally what I said, yes. Bring me
5 anything that could possibly be related to
6 this. She found a file. I searched it and
7 produced these two documents. I do tell you
8 with confidence, I do not have anything else
9 that could be responsive.
10 Q How can I believe that with
11 confidence that you have nothing else which
12 is responsive when your first search with the
13 documents produced by Clinton Justice
14 Department didn't contain the documents you
15 produced to today?
16 A I don't know that I had these
17 documents when the first search went on. I
18 don't know when I got them. I found them in
19 a file on un related matters.
20 Q They just mysteriously appeared in
21 your file?
22 A No, again, I found these that make
372
1 passing reference, and I produced them.
2 Q Exhibit 7 contains a date of
3 November 26, 1997, Wednesday, 11:45. Clearly
4 you had the documents before you had to
5 respond to Judicial Watch's --
6 A I don't stamp my documents; that
7 stamp did not come from me.
8 Q Did you make any efforts to acquire
9 these documents so you could give them to
10 Judicial Watch?
11 A Sure, I found them, brought to them
12 counsel.
13 Q Did you call up the DNC, for
14 instance, with regard to Exhibit 8,and say
15 give me one of these Gingrich documents; I
16 want to give it to Judicial Watch?
17 A No, sir, I didn't understand that
18 to be my obligation.
19 Q They must have been in your files?
20 A Of course, they were in my files.
21 I said that.
22 Q How did you go about searching your
373
1 computer records?
2 A I have very few things in my
3 computer. I looked in the computer files. I
4 have very few things in my computer file. I
5 use, you know, E-mail, but that doesn't have
6 anything about the FBI files. I looked
7 through the hard drive. I didn't have
8 anything.
9 Q Did you personally look?
10 A I searched. It is not a topic that
11 I have worked on, so I was satisfied that I
12 didn't have anything on it.
13 Q Did you look at your E-mail?
14 A I don't know how to search -- I
15 looked at the E-mail, yes. I don't save; I
16 don't have every E-mail that I have ever
17 gotten.
18 Q You don't know how to search
19 E-mail; do you?
20 A I looked through it.
21 Q You don't know how to search
22 E-mail; do you?
374
1 A I searched it as best as I could.
2 Q I am asking, do you know how to do
3 an E-mail search?
4 A I searched the E-mails in my
5 computer.
6 Q The answer is no?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: I object. He is not
8 saying no at all. He said he searched his
9 E-mail.
10 THE WITNESS: Maybe what you are
11 getting at is there might be a more efficient
12 way. But I looked at my E-mails. I did not
13 see anything on the FBI files issue. I have
14 not worked on the issue. I have no knowledge
15 of the issue. I have produced two documents
16 that have only the most passing reference to
17 the topic, and I produced them.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q How did you search the E-mail?
20 A I looked at them.
21 Q How did you call it up?
22 A You push a button on the mouse,
375
1 place the cursor over that, and it calls them
2 up.
3 Q Calls what?
4 A That message.
5 Q What do you push the cursor on to
6 get it up, the E-mail?
7 A You push the cursor on top of the
8 caption of the E-mail message. If you click
9 it or double click it, it will call that
10 message up.
11 Q Did you search every message?
12 A I searched the topics of the
13 messages that I had.
14 Q It is possible that you may have
15 classified a document concerning Filegate
16 under some other heading, correct?
17 A No. No. I don't have -- I mean, I
18 don't have any documents. I have not written
19 anything about this topic. I don't know
20 anything about the topic.
21 Q So you only searched for something
22 that was entitled Filegate?
376
1 A No, sir. That would have had any
2 kind of connection. You know, my E-mails are
3 about dates and places of meetings,
4 primarily. They are not about anything,
5 certainly, anything about FBI files.
6 Q You didn't do words search, did
7 you, of your E-mail?
8 A No.
9 Q You didn't do --
10 A I did a visual search, though. I
11 looked at the E-mails myself.
12 Q You didn't do a document title
13 search?
14 A I looked. I don't know what a
15 document title search is. Let me answer your
16 question, sir. If that is a term of art,
17 then I am not familiar with it.
18 I looked at my computer and did not
19 find anything on this.
20 I am not a computer whiz, but I am
21 not completely computer illiterate. I am
22 able to look through my computer files and
377
1 see.
2 Q You didn't look through every
3 E-mail that was stored?
4 A I looked at what I had on my
5 computer.
6 Q Every single E-mail?
7 A My computer does not save, to my
8 knowledge, every E-mail I have ever gotten or
9 sent.
10 Q In fact, E-mail is backed up into a
11 central system at the White House?
12 A I don't know what it is. I don't
13 know how the White House computer system is.
14 Q Has anyone made an inquiry to you
15 or anyone that you know of about how the
16 White House keeps it computer files?
17 A No, sir, not that I know of.
18 Q Has anybody from the Clinton
19 Justice Department ever asked you that?
20 A I am not the person people would
21 turn to computer technology. It is not my
22 forte.
378
1 Q Have you ever seen any kind of
2 directive coming out of the White House
3 counsel's office or anywhere else asking to
4 search computer records and E-mail?
5 A I think as was part of a general
6 search that I have seen those requests. I
7 can't remember if it is on computers. I
8 don't have a request in front of me.
9 Q Have you seen any directive come
10 out of the White House counsel's office or
11 anyplace else that asked you to search erased
12 files?
13 A I can't recall.
14 Q Or asked anyone to search erased
15 files?
16 A I can't recall.
17 Q You don't remember that?
18 A I don't remember that.
19 Q The answer is no?
20 A The answer is I don't know. I
21 can't recall.
22 Q I will show you what I ask the
379
1 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 15.
2 (Begala Deposition Exhibit
3 No. 15 was marked for
4 identification.)
5 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
6 video record at 5:03.
7 (Discussion off the record)
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
9 record at 5:05.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q What is Exhibit 15?
12 A My monthly calendar. This?
13 Q Yes.
14 A Yes, this is my monthly calendar.
15 Q You gave us entries for October of
16 '97, November '97, December '97, January '
17 98, February '98, March '98, and April '98?
18 A Everything my assistant could find.
19 Q That is all that you have?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You didn't look yourself?
22 A No, I didn't know she kept it this
380
1 way.
2 Q Where is the calendar kept?
3 A My assistant keeps it; I assume on
4 the computer.
5 Q It's a computer record?
6 A I guess; I don't know. I didn't
7 know she kept it this way until you had asked
8 for calendars. I said, what calendars have
9 you got.
10 Q Do you keep a calendar yourself?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Do you keep any recordation of your
13 appointments?
14 A No, sir. I have a daily sort of
15 to-do list or meeting schedule. My whole day
16 is just sort of endless --
17 Q I don't care about your whole day,
18 whether it is endless.
19 A I don't keep it, no, sir, no.
20 Q What is your method of keeping your
21 daily to-do lists? Where is that kept?
22 A On a card, a note card.
381
1 Q Where are they filed?
2 A They are not. I do things; I check
3 them off and throw them away.
4 Q You don't keep a calendar at your
5 desk?
6 A Right, I don't, because my
7 assistant does. If anybody needs me for
8 something, they call my assistant. Generally
9 I go from meeting to meeting to meeting. She
10 will direct me, call me; you have to be here
11 or here.
12 Q This is typewritten.
13 A I don't know if it came off the
14 computer -- I think it comes off a computer.
15 Q Does anyone keep a manual calendar
16 in handwriting?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Let's look at this document. It
19 says redacted. What has been redacted out of
20 it?
21 A My recollection is some personal
22 things. Friends' birthdays.
382
1 Q Who did the redaction?
2 A I went over it with counsel.
3 Q With what counsel?
4 A Ms. Paxton.
5 Q Ms. Paxton. Are some of these
6 people that you had personal contact with,
7 have you ever talked to them about your
8 duties at the White House?
9 A No, I don't have the things that
10 were redacted out, but they were generally
11 things about doctor's appointments for my
12 kids, extremely personal things. Not like
13 frightening, but just personal things.
14 Q But they were appointments with
15 some friends that were redacted too, correct?
16 A I can't remember. They were very
17 sort of personal, taking my kids to the
18 doctor, that sort of thing.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Paxton, were
20 there redactions?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to
22 questioning Ms. Paxton. We gave you a
383
1 response to the document request. You can
2 read it and object to it if you want. It is
3 laid out. You are not entitled to question
4 my client. Ms. Paxton is not being deposed.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: It is only proper.
6 We can move this along. She certainly has
7 been vocal today when she wanted to be.
8 THE WITNESS: My recollection is
9 that I asked for certain personal or more
10 personal things taken out.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Some of them were personal
13 acquaintances, correct?
14 A My recollection is that they were
15 in the nature of birthdays or doctors
16 appointments for my kids.
17 Q But you are not sure?
18 A No, sir, I don't have that in front
19 of me.
20 Q I am not interested in doctors. I
21 request any reference to people that he has
22 met with that he has not seen as doctors, and
384
1 I am not interested in where his child may go
2 to school or what doctors they go to. But if
3 they are people he is in contact with, I need
4 to have those.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: I believe you have
6 that. As I state in the response that you
7 have, the only things that have been redacted
8 are personal.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you submit the
10 unreadacted version to Judge Lamberth?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: If he wants it, we
12 will. Absolutely no problem if Judge
13 Lamberth wants to know when the kids
14 birthdays are and when they go to the doctor.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not interested
16 in the kids' birthday either.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: If Judge Lamberth
18 wants to look at the complete unredacted
19 calendars, he is entitled to, and we are
20 happy to have him do so.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I am asking if you
22 will do that short me having to move the
385
1 Court.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think it is
3 necessary.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: He can't remember,
5 and you won't let Ms. Paxton respond.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: That is right. It is
7 improper.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: You are placing us in
9 a Catch-22. I'm not going to waste any more
10 time.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me just say, we
12 have put all of these sorts of issues before
13 the judge. We have been very cooperative
14 with saying if Judge Lamberth wants to
15 undertake an in-camera review, even though
16 that is not the normal process in which
17 things are done, then he can do that. I
18 believe that is before him, and he has not
19 even ruled on it yet.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Shapiro, I am
21 trying to identify what was removed. He
22 can't tell me unequivocally that friends were
386
1 not removed.
2 THE WITNESS: My recollection was
3 that it was much more intimate family issues
4 of the nature of children.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I am asking if you
6 will direct your counsel to --
7 THE WITNESS: Can I finish?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: You just don't submit
9 in-camera documents to the judge. The judge
10 has to approve the submission of an in-camera
11 document.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: You can do anything
13 if you agree to it.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: I am not going to
15 submit in-camera --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: We will move the
17 court and we'll move for attorneys' fees and
18 costs for forcing us to do this. Certify.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Looking at the bottom of the page,
21 Mr. Begala, it says, Presented by Calendar
22 Creative Plus on March 2, 1998. That was
387
1 created yesterday, correct?
2 A It seems to.
3 Q So in fact, no search had ever been
4 made.
5 A No, no, I asked my assistant before
6 I came here to print out whatever the most --
7 whatever calendars she had.
8 Q No search had ever been made before
9 you signed your affidavit on February 27,
10 1998, correct?
11 A No, that is not correct. This
12 document wasn't printed out then, but I asked
13 my assistant to produce whatever calendars
14 she keeps for me. She did.
15 Q In fact, there is no reference to
16 this calendar in the motion that we submitted
17 for protective order to block your
18 deposition?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. This
20 calls for all kinds of legal arguments. This
21 document is plain on its face. It has
22 nothing to do with the FBI files matters.
388
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You have seen the motion for
3 protective order?
4 A I suppose I have. I don't have it
5 in front of me, so I am not familiar with.
6 Q You didn't tell them, in fact, that
7 there was a calendar that was responsive?
8 A I don't know what that document you
9 are talking about is, that motion. I asked
10 the assistant, she produced the calendar.
11 You have it in your hands.
12 Q Let's go through this right now.
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q You say you had redacted
15 information of a personal nature?
16 A Yes, sir. In fact, you were asking
17 about friends. On Friday the 3rd of October
18 I have a notation here, lunch with Domenico,
19 or Domenico mess. He is a personal friend of
20 mine. I did not redact that. He was my
21 roommate in college.
22 Q What was your criteria whether to
389
1 redact --
2 A If it was -- I can't promise you I
3 didn't, but I only wanted to keep out the
4 most intimate. Just like I didn't want to
5 give you my wife's name. I ought to have
6 some little scrap of privacy.
7 Q Apparently you gave it out to the
8 White House; they sent it out in the press
9 release. You didn't want to give it to me;
10 you gave it to them. Your kids were in the
11 press release; weren't they?
12 A They were.
13 Q Were you angry they did that?
14 A I am ready to answer any questions
15 you have got about this, sir.
16 Q I am trying to figure out what the
17 criteria for removing friends' names. Was
18 the criteria that you removed friends' name
19 if they might have information about our
20 lawsuit?
21 A Certainly not, absolutely not. I
22 don't have any information about your
390
1 lawsuit. I am here to answer any questions
2 that you have.
3 My recollection, I don't have it in
4 front of me, my recollection is the only
5 things I wanted out were family, personal
6 nature.
7 Q Did you remove the references to
8 defendants in this lawsuit?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Take one second. See
10 if we can solve this problem.
11 (Counsel conferred with
12 witness)
13 MS. SHAPIRO: I think we can solve
14 the problem. Can we go back on the record?
15 Before we make any representation, we may
16 have a copy of the unredacted one, which we
17 can give to the witness, and then he can
18 testify about what was there and what was not
19 there.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: We want a copy of the
21 unredacted one.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: That was the whole
391
1 point of redacting one.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: We will take it under
3 the protective order.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll make you an
5 offer. If you actually produce documents
6 pursuant to that protective order, and we
7 don't have letters trying to modify
8 protective orders when they have just been
9 ruled on --
10 MR. KLAYMAN: You have known of our
11 outstanding request in that regard for a long
12 time.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: It is rejected. It's
14 a mute point. We apparently don't have it
15 with us.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Let's go through this. October
18 the 12th, Billy Travis's birthday party?
19 A That is my son's birthday.
20 Q You did put your son's birthday?
21 A I would have wanted that redacted.
22 Q Your counsel blew it?
392
1 A I am not going to criticize my
2 counsel; they did an extraordinary job. They
3 are good people. We had a party for my two
4 year old.
5 Q Wednesday, the 15th of October, Ron
6 Brownstein lunch. Who is Ron Brownstein?
7 A He is a reporter.
8 Q You routinely have lunches with
9 reporters?
10 A Yes, from time to time.
11 Q When having lunches with reporters,
12 you have discussed the FBI files matter;
13 haven't you?
14 A No, sir, not to my recollection or
15 knowledge, no, sir.
16 Q Not to your recollection?
17 A No, sir. It has not been a hot
18 topic -- I don't remember, but it was not a
19 hot topic of conversation.
20 I would suspect that that lunch,
21 like many others particularly in October,
22 would have been to get re-acquainted, welcome
393
1 back.
2 I knew Brownstein when he covered
3 the Governor in '92, but had not seen him
4 awhile, because had I been living in Texas
5 for two years. I don't have a particular
6 recollection of that lunch.
7 My general recollections would be
8 that it would have been a good is to see you
9 again, means of being reacquainted.
10 Q On October 26th, 1 p.m. You we want
11 to an HRC birthday, south lawn?
12 A No, sir, I didn't go.
13 Q You were scheduled to go. That was
14 Hillary Clinton's birthday?
15 A That was her birthday party. I
16 can't remember when her birthday is. I
17 didn't, in fact go.
18 Q On the 23rd of October and 29th --
19 I am sorry, the 16th of October and on the
20 29th, you were scheduled to meet with Bill
21 Press. Did you meet with him on those days?
22 A I can't remember. I bet you no,
394
1 because I probably missed one day and made up
2 on the other. But I don't know. I don't
3 remember.
4 Q Do you frequently meet with Bill
5 Press?
6 A Not frequently. He is a friend of
7 mine.
8 Q You have talked to him about
9 Filegate?
10 A No, sir, I never have, not to the
11 best of my recollection.
12 Q Have you ever talked to him about
13 Judicial Watch?
14 A Not to the best of my recollection.
15 I can't remember talking to him about you. I
16 wouldn't rule it out, but it is not like a
17 hot topic of conversation with me and Bill
18 Press.
19 Q 5th of November, you supposedly had
20 lunch with David Broder?
21 A I think that would have been John
22 Broder of The New York Times. No, it might
395
1 have been David Broder. It could have been
2 either, sorry. I did have lunch with David
3 Broder. We have not had the best of
4 relationships. I wanted to try to get along
5 better with him.
6 Q Why is that?
7 A Because I have a big mouth and say
8 stupid things about powerful reporters.
9 Q Have you bad mouthed Dave Broder?
10 A I have had a running public
11 argument with Mr. Broder.
12 Q Over what?
13 A The role of political consultants
14 in campaigns and of whether reporters should
15 move back and forth from government to
16 commentary.
17 It is all professional. I have
18 enormous respect for him, but, if that was --
19 it could have been John Broder, but I have
20 had lunch with David Broder if last six
21 months.
22 Q Did you ever discuss issues
396
1 concerning government ethics with David
2 Broder?
3 A Not that I can recall. Maybe
4 campaign reform, which I am a big supporter
5 of, may well have come up. And I know
6 Mr. Broder is a supporter of as well.
7 Q On November 7th, it says 12 p.m.,
8 James Bennett lunch. Who is James?
9 A He is a reporter for The New York
10 Times.
11 Q Who is Bennett?
12 A James Bennett.
13 Q Not James Carville and Bob Bennett?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q 21st of November, Kevin Murphy.
16 Who is Kevin Murhpy?
17 A He's a kid who came to work for
18 James Carville. A kid, he's a young man just
19 out of college.
20 Q When did he start working for him?
21 A Just started working for him. I
22 wanted to take him to lunch and introduce
397
1 myself to him.
2 Q Is he working for James now?
3 A To the best of my knowledge, yes,
4 sir.
5 Q What does he do for Mr. Carville?
6 A He's kind of one of the two or
7 three young people who works for him, and I
8 wanted to take him to lunch, because I know
9 what it is like to work for James.
10 Q Who are the others?
11 A A kid named Todd, and I think one
12 of James' nephews, whose name escapes me.
13 Q What is Todd's last name?
14 A I can't remember.
15 Q James' nephew on his side or Mary's
16 side?
17 A I think it is on his side. It is
18 Matt. I am sorry; I am tired. It is an
19 extraordinary experience to work for or with
20 James.
21 Q We can do special credits at the
22 end. I didn't ask you that question.
398
1 A That is who Kevin Murphy is.
2 Q Who is Dennis Trout?
3 A I don't know. I can't remember
4 meeting him.
5 Q 26th November, Eller Irvine?
6 A This is a guy named Jeff Eller who
7 I used to work at Public Strategies, who I
8 might have done something with. He might
9 have stopped in.
10 Q He works down in Texas?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Monday, December 1st. Burke lunch,
13 who is Burke?
14 A That would be Rick Burke of The New
15 York Times. I remember that one. She was
16 asking about the Vice President, subsequently
17 wrote a major profile about that.
18 Q Was it about Buddhist temples?
19 A Not to my recollection. It was
20 about Gore and the political chances of him
21 succeeding to the Presidency in the year
22 2000.
399
1 Q Paul Carey, who is he?
2 A He is a wonderful guy. He is a new
3 Securities and Exchange commissioner, who is
4 a friend of mine. I remember that swearing
5 in quite well.
6 Q 3rd of December, Keith Mason lunch.
7 Who is Keith Mason?
8 A He is another buddy of mine from
9 Public Strategies in Georgia campaigns. He
10 is an attorney in Atlanta.
11 Q Where is he? In Atlanta?
12 A Yes, he was in town.
13 Q From time to time you discuss what
14 you have been doing at the White House with
15 people like Mr. Mason?
16 A Occasionally. He is a personal
17 friend. I was at his wedding; he was at
18 mine. They have a new baby. We had a lot to
19 talk about.
20 Q Who is Warren Scribble?
21 A He is a writer with The Washington
22 Times. I can't remember if I ever did have
400
1 lunch with him. He had been wanting to have
2 lunch for quite some time. I try to be fair
3 to The Washington Times as well.
4 Q Are they fair to you?
5 A I am not complaining. I am tired
6 of griping about the press.
7 Q You turned over a new leaf as of
8 today?
9 A I'm trying hard. I have bigger
10 complaints now.
11 Q You had a catharsis in the middle
12 of this deposition?
13 A I know what true pain is now.
14 Q You are a born again spinmeister.
15 Is that what has happened?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Okay, penn Breyer. December 8th.
18 A That was an event I didn't attend,
19 but wish I could have. The University of
20 Pennsylvania has a commission I used to serve
21 on before I joined the White House. Called
22 the Penn National Commission on Culture,