301
1 Q When were they deleted? When did
2 you make the deletions?
3 A I made the deletions prior to
4 coming here.
5 Q When was that?
6 A I took over at AFIS about two weeks
7 ago -- three weeks ago.
8 Q So what date did you do the
9 deletions?
10 A I did them -- did them over a
11 period of times days.
12 Q Starting when?
13 A I don't have the dates.
14 Immediately prior. During the week -- my
15 last week at the Pentagon.
16 Calendar. April 13th, Monday, was
17 my first day at the new job, so over the
18 period of 1 through 10 I started going
19 through my computer and getting rid of things
20 that I didn't need.
21 Q What was your criteria for
22 determining what you did not need,
302
1 generically speaking?
2 Ms. Weismann, please don't
3 interrupt the testimony.
4 MS. WEISMANN: I'm not interrupting
5 the testimony.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: You're making a lot
7 of noise over there.
8 MR. QUINLIVAN: We're going to
9 object to this. At the time that this
10 activity occurred the witness was not subject
11 to a subpoena. As such, this has no
12 relevance.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: That's an incredible
14 objection. I cannot believe that objection.
15 You're saying that if he deleted stuff that
16 wasn't relevant to this deposition, whether
17 or not he got it before or after this
18 subpoena nullifies my ability to ask about
19 it? Is that your position?
20 MR. QUINLIVAN: The question on the
21 table was what was his authority to do it.
22 That is completely irrelevant to the subject
303
1 matter at hand.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to ask the
3 question. What was your authority to make
4 those deletions? Did you get authorization?
5 MR. QUINLIVAN: The witness is
6 directed not to respond to that.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q What was deleted, generically
10 speaking?
11 A Generically thinking, anything that
12 I didn't need in the new job.
13 Q How did you make a determination as
14 to what you did not need in the new job?
15 A Basically, I didn't need anything.
16 This in clarification, all I was really doing
17 was taking the computer with me.
18 Q So you deleted everything?
19 A Except a few things that I
20 personally needed that were on my computer,
21 that's correct.
22 Q What things did you personally need
304
1 that were on your computer that you did not
2 delete, generically speaking?
3 A Documents that I thought would be
4 useful to me in the future.
5 Q What documents were they,
6 generically speaking?
7 A I just -- I don't know that I can
8 characterize them generically other than
9 documents that I thought would be useful for
10 me. That is generic.
11 Q Approximately how many documents
12 did you delete?
13 A I have no idea.
14 Q Hundreds?
15 A I have no idea. Hundreds if,
16 maybe.
17 Q Thousands?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q In deleting those documents did you
20 have any software that would permanently
21 remove the documents from the hard drive?
22 A No.
305
1 Q The computer, when it was over in
2 your former office, was it networked? Was it
3 part of a network?
4 A It was.
5 Q Were documents sent in to a central
6 server?
7 A They were.
8 Q Did you delete the documents from
9 the central server?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you ask anybody to delete those
12 documents from the central server?
13 A No.
14 MR. QUINLIVAN: We're going to
15 object on the same basis. This is irrelevant
16 to the issues at hand. We're going to object
17 this entire line of inquiry.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q In responding to Judicial Watch's
20 subpoena today, since the documents were
21 deleted before you got the subpoena, you were
22 unable to check whether deleted documents
306
1 were responsive, correct?
2 A To the best of my knowledge,
3 everything that I had on Linda Tripp and
4 Monica Lewinsky was printed out and I have
5 those files maintained separately. I don't
6 believe that there was a single Linda Tripp
7 or Monica Lewinsky document deleted from my
8 computer.
9 Q But you don't know for sure because
10 those documents had already been deleted?
11 A I strongly believe that every
12 document that I ever had on that computer had
13 been printed out and is -- and is in printed
14 form.
15 Q But you have no hard proof of that
16 currently, do you?
17 A I have no hard proof to the
18 contrary.
19 Q At the time that you deleted these
20 files the Jane Mayer article had already been
21 published, correct?
22 A Oh, correct.
307
1 Q In fact, the whole controversy had
2 begun as to the release of the information
3 concerning Linda Tripp from the Pentagon,
4 correct?
5 MR. QUINLIVAN: We're going to
6 object to this. Again, we're going to object
7 to this line of inquiry.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You were aware of that at the time
10 you deleted the files, were you not?
11 MR. QUINLIVAN: I am now
12 reasserting my objection that this is an
13 improper line of inquiry.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q You were aware of that at the time
16 you deleted the files, correct?
17 MR. QUINLIVAN: No. I'm objecting
18 to that and the witness is not to respond.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: You're obstructing
20 justice, sir.
21 MR. QUINLIVAN: That is a complete
22 mischaracterization.
308
1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's exactly what
2 you're doing. There's nothing in any way
3 improper with this question. It's a benign
4 question. The fact that you will not let him
5 answer, in my opinion, constitutes
6 obstruction.
7 MR. QUINLIVAN: You're entitled to
8 your opinions.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you going to let
10 him answer?
11 MR. QUINLIVAN: No.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
13 Would you prefer to consult with a
14 superior as to whether you should take this
15 position? Are you giving him the answer,
16 Ms. Weismann?
17 MR. QUINLIVAN: Neither
18 Ms. Weismann nor myself is the deponent here
19 today.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Is Ms. Weismann your
21 superior.
22 MR. QUINLIVAN: Neither
309
1 Ms. Weismann nor myself is the deponent here
2 today.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Is Ms. Weismann your
4 superior?
5 MR. QUINLIVAN: Asked and answered.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You say you kept files, hard
9 copies. Where are those hard copies today?
10 A They are --
11 Q Are you saying that you kept hard
12 copies of everything that you erased on those
13 computers?
14 A No. I'm saying that I was careful
15 about the Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp
16 things. I believe that I have hard copies of
17 everything that was ever on that computer.
18 Q Where are those hard copies kept
19 currently?
20 A In my office.
21 Q Which office?
22 A My new office.
310
1 Q What's the name of the file that
2 they're kept in?
3 A It says Tripp/Lewinsky or it might
4 say Lewinsky/Tripp.
5 Q Who has control of those files?
6 You or anybody else in your office?
7 A Me.
8 Q Is anyone else allowed access?
9 A No.
10 Q Where are they kept?
11 A In a cabinet in my office.
12 Q Is it kept under lock and key?
13 A No.
14 Q Is your office door locked each
15 night?
16 A Yes. Well, the -- the office
17 complex is locked.
18 Q Is your specific office locked?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you review these documents in
21 response to Judicial Watch's subpoena,
22 Exhibit 2?
311
1 A I did.
2 Q Did any of your counsel review
3 those documents or anyone else?
4 A Yes.
5 Q In response to Exhibit 2?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Who reviewed them?
8 A Ms. Filice and I can't remember who
9 else got copies, but -- Brad, did you?
10 Ms. Filice did.
11 Q Did any of the Justice Department
12 counsel review those files?
13 A When you say review, I'm not sure
14 what you mean.
15 Q Look at the documents in that file.
16 A I submitted the -- everything --
17 oh, did -- I don't -- no, I don't believe
18 anybody did.
19 Q So it was only Ms. Filice?
20 A Well, actually let me amend now
21 that I understand the question. I went
22 through my files and I pulled out everything
312
1 that was responsive.
2 Q So you made the decision of what
3 was responsive?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Ms. Filice didn't?
6 A No.
7 Q She's never seen the file?
8 A I don't believe she's ever seen the
9 complete set.
10 Q When did you do that?
11 A When I got the subpoena.
12 Q On or about the 13th of March?
13 A If that's when I got the subpoena.
14 Q What did you do with the documents
15 that you pulled out at that time?
16 A The ones that I --
17 Q Excuse me. The 13th of April is
18 when you received the subpoena, in and around
19 that period, correct?
20 A I don't have a calendar in front of
21 me. I should keep it in front of me. But
22 you know when it came, do you not?
313
1 Q Yes.
2 A I don't know that this tells me
3 when it came. I don't remember when it came.
4 If you would like to give me the document, it
5 has the date on it.
6 Q The subpoena is dated April 9th and
7 you were served on April 13th. Does that
8 sound about right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q It was you who looked at the
11 documents at that time?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You pulled some out that you
14 thought were responsive?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Had you gotten and guidance on what
17 was responsive or not before you pulled the
18 documents outs of your file, guidance from
19 anybody else?
20 MR. QUINLIVAN: Object. This goes
21 to what we discussed with the judge earlier
22 today. The witness is directed not to reveal
314
1 the substance of any attorney/client
2 communications. He can reveal whether or he
3 got guidance, but he's not to reveal the
4 substance of any communications. Subject to
5 that limitation the witness can answer.
6 THE WITNESS: I did get guidance.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Who did you get guidance from?
9 A From -- when I got the subpoena, I
10 called Mr. Wiegmann and said I've got this
11 thing here. To my recollection --
12 MR. QUINLIVAN: I would repeat that
13 the witness is directed not to reveal the
14 substance of any communications he had with
15 counsel. He is only to reveal whether or not
16 he consulted with counsel, to the extent that
17 that is responsive to the request.
18 THE WITNESS: I consulted with
19 counsel.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Did you give the documents that you
22 pulled out to counsel?
315
1 A Yes.
2 Q At that time?
3 A I don't -- I don't think it was at
4 that time. I did not pull the documents
5 until after I had talked to counsel.
6 Q But counsel never saw the actual
7 file, the whole file?
8 A Correct.
9 Q To this day has never seen it?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Did counsel give you advice on
12 which documents to pull?
13 A Counsel gave me advice on the scope
14 of the subpoena.
15 Q Did counsel ever ask you to see the
16 file itself?
17 MR. QUINLIVAN: I object to that.
18 That is asking for a communication.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Now, going back to Exhibit 4, Bates
22 number 1.
316
1 A I'm sorry. What page?
2 Q Bates number 1, Exhibit 4.
3 A Page number one?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Did you make the recordations on
7 this pilot that we see on page one?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Or did you have somebody else do
10 the entry for you?
11 A No, I do them.
12 Q Where it says, "Re Tripp and Jane
13 Mayer (New Yorker)," does that refer to New
14 Yorker magazine?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What were you recording about DOC
17 Cooke? I mean what is this annotation in the
18 left-hand column with the continuation on the
19 right-hand column? "DOC will check with
20 security to see how Tripp responded to
21 security question on prior convictions."
22 What were you trying to say? I
317
1 mean obviously that's a shorthand but does
2 this now refresh your recollection further as
3 to what occurred on that day?
4 A No, it's the same conversation.
5 The -- the re line, that's just a title for
6 me. That's not what I discussed. The
7 bullets were -- were what's discussed.
8 Q What's a re line? What do you mean
9 by the that?
10 A The line that says, "Re Tripp and
11 Jane Mayer," that's a note to me. That's a
12 title.
13 Q You got that information from
14 talking to Ken that day, Ken Bacon?
15 A The evening before.
16 Q Right.
17 A So this was my -- that first call
18 that I made to DOC following up on Ken's
19 conversation.
20 Q Now, in the second column it says,
21 DOC, that's DOC Cooke?
22 A Uh-huh.
318
1 Q DOC Cooke, right?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Is his name DOC is or is that his
4 title?
5 A They call him DOC.
6 Q "Will check with security," and
7 what did you mean by security?
8 A OSD secretary, Office of Secretary
9 of Defense Security.
10 Q "To see how Tripp responded to
11 security question on prior conviction." So
12 you understood the question to deal with
13 convictions, not arrests, correct?
14 A Well, again, this is shorthand.
15 The questions on the forms applied to both.
16 Q In fact, what had been told to you
17 that Mayer was looking for was information on
18 prior convictions, correct?
19 A In fact, she asked me how she
20 responded to the two questions that we've
21 already discussed on the security form.
22 Q But her question was limited, as
319
1 you understood it from talking to Bacon, to
2 only convictions?
3 A No, that's not correct. In talking
4 to Bacon and in every conversation and in
5 every answer I've given and in every answer
6 I'm going to give she asked about two
7 questions on the form and how Ms. Tripp
8 responded on those two questions.
9 Q The next notation, "8:55 a.m.
10 to 9:05, Jane Meyer," does that notation to
11 Jane Mayer mean that you talked to her?
12 A Correct.
13 Q It says "note." When you say note,
14 what do you mean?
15 A That's something that is added by
16 the computer whenever it's -- it's a computer
17 annotation, which means there's a note added
18 to the time line.
19 Q You said, "Told her I was working
20 on answer to her question and Ken has made it
21 clear it's a priority." Is that an accurate
22 statement?
320
1 A That is an accurate statement.
2 Q So Ken Bacon told you that your
3 working on this was a priority?
4 A That's close, but not -- not on the
5 money. Let me put it on the money.
6 Q Well, you just said it was
7 accurate.
8 A I said this was an accurate
9 statement. It's not a complete statement.
10 Do you want it to be a completely accurate
11 statement?
12 Q This statement, "Told her I was
13 working on answer to her question and Ken
14 made clear it's priority," that's accurate?
15 A This is my shorthand and it's my --
16 it's my accurate shorthand. Now, do you want
17 to know the extent of the conversation that
18 this refers to?
19 Q Well, let me ask some questions
20 first.
21 You said this was a routine matter
22 earlier, correct, this inquiry?
321
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you then ask Ken Bacon why he
3 was making this a priority?
4 A This was a -- a priority because
5 the reporter was on deadline and whenever a
6 reporter is on deadline, we call that a
7 priority.
8 Q Now, in the course of your
9 experience in working in the press department
10 you have not always jumped when a reporter
11 has asked you to jump, have you?
12 A We try to jump whenever we can.
13 The mission is maximum release of information
14 in a minimum response time.
15 Q Did Mr. Tucker Carlson ever ask you
16 for information about Ms. Tripp?
17 MR. QUINLIVAN: Objection to the
18 extent that that asks him for information
19 about Ms. Tripp beyond that which was
20 revealed and which is the subject of that
21 which was revealed to Ms. Mayer.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
322
1 Q Please answer.
2 A Mr. Tucker --
3 MR. QUINLIVAN: The witness is
4 directed not to respond to that question
5 unless the subject of his discussions with
6 Mr. Tucker Carlson was the same or covered
7 the same subject matter or the same request
8 for information as that which was provided to
9 Jane Mayer.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 THE WITNESS: Mr. -- did you want
12 an answer?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah. It's related
14 to this whole issue.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: In fact, Jane Mayer
17 made reference to it herself in a call with
18 him. How can you instruct him not to answer
19 questions about what Carlson was asking?
20 THE WITNESS: You said except as --
21 MS. WEISMANN: Right.
22 THE WITNESS: And I am getting
323
1 ready to answer the except as part.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you maintaining
3 that instruction?
4 MR. QUINLIVAN: Yes.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
6 THE WITNESS: So the answer to your
7 question, the except as part of this is that
8 Mr. Tucker Carlson never asked questions
9 about Ms. Tripp.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: What did he ask
11 questions about?
12 MR. QUINLIVAN: That we will object
13 to. The witness has already testified that
14 he was not asked questions about Ms. Tripp.
15 As such, there's no way that he could be
16 asking the subject.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Were the questions
18 related to the Monica Lewinsky/Linda Tripp
19 controversy?
20 MR. QUINLIVAN: Same objection
21 stands.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
324
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Did you jump for Mr. Carlson?
3 A As fast as I could, yes.
4 Q Were you instructed by Ken Bacon to
5 make it a priority?
6 MR. QUINLIVAN: Same objection.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond.
9 MR. QUINLIVAN: No, we're directing
10 the witness not to respond.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Even if there was a
12 valid objection, which there's not, he's
13 already waived it because he answered the
14 first question.
15 MR. QUINLIVAN: He has not waived
16 the objection.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: It's okay when he
18 says something that's favorable, isn't it,
19 but it's not okay when he says something that
20 might not be.
21 MR. QUINLIVAN: That is a complete
22 and utter mischaracterization and is a
325
1 completely improper and uncivil and
2 unprofessional assertion.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to know the
4 basis that you're instructing the flow of
5 information in this deposition.
6 MR. QUINLIVAN: That is, again,
7 another mischaracterization. We have
8 explained the grounds for the objection on
9 numerous occasions.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let him answer
11 question one and not answer question two
12 certainly lends a reasonable person the
13 impression you didn't want him to answer two
14 because it was unfavorable. Will you now let
15 him answer two?
16 MR. QUINLIVAN: Same objection
17 stands.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Then it says, "Wants to verify
21 whether the question on the security form
22 pertains to arrested or convicted." Is that
326
1 accurate? Is that what Ms. Mayer told you
2 she wanted to do?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q She wanted to get information to
5 show that there had been a conviction? That
6 was her first choice, correct?
7 A No, she wanted to know how the
8 question read on the form.
9 Q Now, did she advise you that she
10 had had a sample form in front of her when
11 she asked you these questions?
12 A She did not.
13 Q Did you ask her how she knew that
14 the questions were phrased in a particular
15 manner?
16 A No.
17 Q Entry 9:25 a.m. to 9:30, "DOC
18 Cooke, Security only has a few Tripp records,
19 all of which had been subpoenaed by Office of
20 Independent Counsel. No indications of
21 incidents." Is that an accurate statement?
22 A Yes.
327
1 Q How did you learn that all those
2 records had been subpoenaed by the
3 Independent Counsel?
4 MR. QUINLIVAN: Now, we're going to
5 object to that.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's right here. You
7 can't tell him not to answer questions on
8 that.
9 MR. QUINLIVAN: The witness can
10 respond.
11 THE WITNESS: DOC told me that's
12 what that entry is.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q So you were aware at the time that
15 the information that Ms. Mayer was requesting
16 was before the Grand Jury?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Were aware that information that is
19 provided to the Grand Jury is covered by
20 secrecy rules, correct?
21 A I was not aware of that at the
22 time. I did not -- that statement did not
328
1 have any significance to me at that time.
2 Q Did you make inquiry as to whether
3 you could then provide this information to
4 Ms. Mayer if it had been given to the
5 Independent Counsel already?
6 A I did not.
7 Q Did anyone advise you that you
8 could not give it to Ms. Mayer?
9 A No.
10 Q You then state, "No indication of
11 incidents." Is that an accurate statement?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What did you mean by no indication
14 of incidents?
15 A On the forms that he had available
16 to him --
17 Q Who is he?
18 A DOC Cooke, DOC Cooke, there is no
19 indication --
20 MR. QUINLIVAN: Before the witness
21 completes his answer let me object to the
22 extent it asks him to reveal the substance of
329
1 information that was in the personnel records
2 or security records of Linda Tripp that would
3 be subject to the Privacy Act.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll change the
5 tape.
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
7 video record at 6:42 p.m.
8 (Recess)
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
10 record at 6:48.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q The question that was out there was
13 what did you mean by no indication of
14 incidents?
15 MR. QUINLIVAN: The standing
16 objection was that I'm instructing the
17 witness not to respond to the extent that
18 would reveal information that he learned from
19 the official personnel files of Linda Tripp
20 that would be subject to the Privacy Act.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, he already said
22 no indication of incidents. He's got to tell
330
1 me what he meant. You already produced this.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Please respond.
4 MR. QUINLIVAN: Subject to my
5 limitation.
6 THE WITNESS: There was no -- on
7 the forms that he had there was nothing
8 unusual about the information that she had
9 provided.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q What do you mean by there's nothing
12 unusual?
13 MR. QUINLIVAN: The witness can
14 respond subject to my objection.
15 THE WITNESS: The -- the forms that
16 were available at that time, we talked about
17 the SF-171, the one that looks like a resume
18 that has at the bottom have you ever been
19 arrested or convicted, and that form said --
20 she answered no and that's what he was
21 referring to as no indications of incidents.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
331
1 Q So on its face there were no
2 indications of incidents to you?
3 A That's -- that's right.
4 Q Did DOC Cookee tell you that you
5 couldn't release this since it had been
6 subpoenaed by the Grand Jury?
7 A No.
8 Q Next entry 10 o'clock to 10:25,
9 "Steve O'Toole. Director of personnel
10 security. Reviewed Tripp's security file."
11 What did that notation mean?
12 A I went down to the Office of the
13 Director of Personnel Security and I reviewed
14 Tripp's security file.
15 Q The deletions here that are blacked
16 out, do they relate to Linda Tripp?
17 A It --
18 MR. QUINLIVAN: Can counsel point
19 to specific.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Right here in this
21 entry at 10:00 to 10:25. There's stuff
22 that's been blacked out right up
332
1 to 11:20 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. I want to know
2 if that relates to Linda Tripp, what's been
3 blacked out.
4 THE WITNESS: The -- I don't
5 remember what's above that line, the dotted
6 line, the bottom -- below that dotted line
7 was a note I made to myself on something that
8 did not refer to this security matter.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: But did it refer to
10 Linda Tripp?
11 MR. QUINLIVAN: We're objecting to
12 that. The notation has been made that this is
13 not responsive to the subpoena.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to get
15 identification if it concerned Linda Tripp.
16 I mean that doesn't reveal anything.
17 THE WITNESS: The -- did you say
18 yes, I could respond to that?
19 MR. QUINLIVAN: If you know.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to that.
21 THE WITNESS: The 10 to 25
22 notation --
333
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
2 THE WITNESS: Notation, all of it
3 pertained to Linda Tripp.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q What is blacked out on the
6 left-hand column?
7 A I don't remember.
8 Q I'm going back left-hand column on
9 this page.
10 A Oh. Those are things that had
11 nothing to do with her.
12 Q Does it have anything to do with
13 Jane Mayer?
14 A No.
15 Q The entry 11:20 a.m. to 11:30 it's
16 all blacked out. Did that refer to Linda
17 Tripp?
18 A No.
19 Q Jane Mayer?
20 A No.
21 Q Going to the next page,
22 number 2, 12:30 to 12:50, it's all blacked
334
1 out. Did that refer to Linda Tripp?
2 A No. I mean I can't -- I can't
3 remember every entry, but, in general, I
4 believe that we -- anything that referred to
5 this -- to them at all we at least left the
6 name there, so it would -- so you could tell.
7 Q This entry at 1 o'clock
8 to 1:20 p.m., Aaron Retica, was she a fact
9 checker?
10 A Retica, that was the fact checker.
11 Q For the New Yorker Magazine.
12 A Correct.
13 Q Those are her phone numbers that
14 she gave you?
15 A It's a he.
16 Q He?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Why did he give you his phone
19 numbers?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q Did you ask for them?
22 A No. Many times reporters and
335
1 people who call say if you think of anything
2 else, call me at. No, I did not ask for
3 them. They're there for whatever reason.
4 Q Then it says, "Released today."
5 What did you mean by released today, the
6 article?
7 A Yeah, the -- they were going to
8 release that today and they said they would
9 fax a copy just prior to its release.
10 Q In fact, you were anxious to get a
11 copy of that release, weren't you?
12 A I wouldn't say anxious. I was
13 interested in what the article was going to
14 read, but -- and -- but more -- more I was
15 eager, not anxious, to see the part that
16 pertained -- how she was going to use the
17 part that I gave her.
18 Q You wanted to get it that day so
19 you could then give it to your superiors,
20 correct?
21 A Yeah. If -- if it was going to
22 come out, I would certainly want to make sure
336
1 that everybody knew that it was out.
2 Q You wanted to get credit for having
3 released the information, correct?
4 A No, that is not true. The release
5 of information is not a matter of credit, you
6 know. It's a matter of I did my job and
7 that's what it was. then -- and then the
8 reason for wanting to get it out is to keep
9 people informed. That's what we do, too.
10 Q But you were aware when you
11 released the information, that Linda Tripp
12 was being villafied in the press, correct?
13 A I was aware that -- that there were
14 some articles that were against her and some
15 that were for her.
16 Q You were aware that she was being
17 villafied by the White House for her actions
18 with Monica Lewinsky, correct?
19 A No. Again, this does not enter
20 into anything to do with this -- the decision
21 to release the information or the decision to
22 want to -- to get the article.
337
1 Q But I asked you, you were aware
2 that the White House was quite critical of
3 Ms. Tripp at the time, correct?
4 A I don't even now recall specific
5 statements coming from the White House.
6 There were certainly a spade of articles
7 that -- that were out at that time of the --
8 of this ilk certainly.
9 Q You were aware of people like
10 Mr. Carville, James Carville, who were very
11 critical of Ms. Tripp at that time, correct?
12 A No.
13 Q Now Ms. Tripp worked for you.
14 Didn't you take an interest in what people
15 were saying about her at that time?
16 A I think it would be -- it would
17 have been impossible to, and still
18 impossible, to read everything that everybody
19 has written or hear everything that everybody
20 has said, read every editorial. I can't do
21 it.
22 Q Ms. Tripp worked for you at the
338
1 time you released the information, correct?
2 A She worked for public affairs, yes.
3 Q You've already testified you were
4 one of her supervisors, correct?
5 A One of her superiors.
6 Q Superiors, correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Now, during the course of your
9 tenure at the Department of Defense, don't
10 you feel some duty to an employee to advise
11 them if you're going to release information
12 from their personnel file before you release
13 it?
14 A Again, in this case this was an
15 action that we handled that came up. We got
16 the information, we released the information.
17 We did not consider it extraordinary in
18 respect to other information that we had
19 already released.
20 Q You felt no duty or responsibility
21 to advise Ms. Tripp before you released the
22 information to Ms. Mayer?
339
1 A That's correct.
2 Q No one else that you dealt with,
3 Mr. Bacon, DOC Cooke, or others expressed any
4 such responsibility either, did they?
5 A All of us -- again, DOC Cooke was
6 not involved in the release, but neither Ken
7 nor I considered this information to be
8 extraordinary.
9 Q You didn't even think you had to
10 advise Ms. Tripp as a matter of courtesy, did
11 you?
12 A During the entire period from 21
13 January we had no direct communication with
14 Ms. Tripp except through her lawyer. It was
15 difficult to get through. But that, again,
16 was not the reason why we didn't do it. We
17 didn't do it because we didn't consider it at
18 the time.
19 Q Did you or anyone else attempt to
20 contact either Ms. Tripp or her lawyer to
21 advise either of them that the information
22 was going to be released before it was
340
1 released?
2 A I answered. We did not consider it
3 at the time.
4 Q So the answer is no?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Even as a matter of courtesy, you
7 didn't think that was required?
8 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to object
9 because that has been asked and answered.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond. I
11 didn't get a clear response. You can
12 respond.
13 MR. QUINLIVAN: I would like the
14 Court reporter to read back the question.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you just trying
16 to take up time, Ms. Weismann? Again, you're
17 interrupting the flow. The Court has
18 instructed you not to interfere in the
19 questioning here. You are not the counsel
20 that's defending this deposition, yet you
21 continue to do that, Ms. Weismann.
22 MR. QUINLIVAN: I would ask the
341
1 Court reporter to read back the earlier
2 question on this subject.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: The clock is stopped
4 on this.
5 MR. QUINLIVAN: No, it's not.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, now we see your
7 motives, don't we?
8 MR. QUINLIVAN: Let's just go on.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: You didn't think that
10 was required even as a matter of courtesy?
11 MR. QUINLIVAN: Objection. Asked
12 and answered.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You can respond.
15 A I agree it's been asked and
16 answered. I don't know how many other ways I
17 can say it. You can ask the question a
18 hundred ways. I --
19 Q You have to answer. I'm asking the
20 question.
21 You didn't think that contacting
22 Ms. Tripp or her attorney about the release
342
1 of her information was required even as a
2 matter of courtesy?
3 A We did not consider this
4 information to be significantly different
5 from any other information that we had
6 released at the time. We were operating --
7 doing a lot of things that day, we were busy,
8 we were -- we had answered similar questions.
9 We did not consider this to be extraordinary.
10 Q In fact, your interest was to curry
11 favor with the President of the United
12 States, wasn't it?
13 A That is absolutely false absolutely
14 false.
15 Q Your interest was to curry favor
16 with the Clinton administration, was it not?
17 A Absolutely not. That is just --
18 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to.
19 THE WITNESS: Your imagination.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q What leads you to believe that
22 that's just my imagination?
343
1 A Because it's patently false. It is
2 untrue, it is not true. Let me think if I
3 could say this a couple of other ways. It is
4 not true. It is patently not true. That's
5 what leads me to believe that.
6 Q In fact, your motive in releasing
7 that information was to assist the President
8 of the United States?
9 MR. QUINLIVAN: Let me object now.
10 THE WITNESS: Let me answer.
11 MR. QUINLIVAN: No, no.
12 THE WITNESS: It is absolutely.
13 Not absolutely not. I will answer that
14 question.
15 MR. QUINLIVAN: Go ahead. Go for
16 it. Go ahead.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Is it your understanding that the
19 President can remove you from your position?
20 A I can be removed by a lot lower
21 than the President.
22 Q The President can remove Ken Bacon
344
1 as well, can he not?
2 A He certainly can.
3 Q DOC Cooke, correct?
4 A Actually I don't -- I don't think
5 that the President can remove DOC Cookee. I
6 don't think that the President can remove me,
7 frankly. I'm on a different set of rules.
8 Q Turning to the entry at 2:30
9 to 2:45 p.m.
10 Excuse me. We're still on 1:00
11 to 1:20. "Went over facts. Based on copy of
12 Tripp's faxed to me from DIS, determined that
13 wording of questions and warnings were
14 different on the version of the form she
15 signed." What does that mean?
16 A Mayer had -- Mayer had asked
17 earlier about the wording of the questions on
18 that form. An at an earlier time when I
19 answered that in the earlier call, I read it
20 off of a current PD 398. When we actually
21 got Ms. Tripp's 398, it was different, it was
22 a different version. So we -- I reread the
345
1 question as it was on her form.
2 Q You read that to Ms. Mayer?
3 A No, to Retica.
4 Q To Retica. What does it mean by
5 made corrections?
6 A He -- he made the corrections to
7 the correct wording on his copy.
8 Q How do you know that?
9 A He said it.
10 Q So he had a copy of the 398?
11 A No, he had the questions that were
12 written by Ms. Mayer and he corrected them
13 when I gave him the correct version -- the
14 correct wording.
15 Q But you were reading the questions
16 off of the 398 to him, correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q Don't know that he didn't have
19 the 398 in front of him at the time, do you?
20 A I know that he -- what he said was,
21 and all I know is what he said, was that was
22 he reading Ms. Mayer's version, a copy that
346
1 she had submitted to him.
2 Q But you don't know whether it was
3 the 398 or not?
4 A I know what he said. I don't know
5 what he didn't say.
6 Q That's what he said?
7 A That's what he said.
8 Q Nothing more, nothing less?
9 A Correct.
10 Q So you made no reference as to
11 whether or not he had a 398 or not?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Now, the blacked-out entries that
14 follow this notation of 1:00 to 1:20 up to
15 and including the blacked-out entries going
16 into the second column of page two with the
17 notation 7:30 to 8:00, did any of that relate
18 to Ms. Tripp?
19 A No.
20 Q Jane Mayer?
21 A No.
22 Q Turning to the entry on the second
347
1 column at the bottom wherein it says, "Tripp:
2 Need to pin down status of investigation
3 concerning her security clearance," that's an
4 accurate statement?
5 A You -- you read this statement
6 accurately.
7 Q Was it accurate when recorded by
8 you?
9 A It's an accurate note that -- that
10 says what -- that says what -- well, let me
11 tell you what it is. What it is was a note
12 that -- that the media were now asking is
13 there a -- what is the status of her security
14 clearance. That's the note that says the
15 media are asking that.
16 Q The media called you?
17 A This is -- these -- this is at a
18 staff meeting.
19 Q You were informed of this at a
20 staff meeting?
21 A Yeah, this was one of the items
22 that came up at the staff meeting.
348
1 Q Who informed you of this at the
2 staff meeting?
3 A This was probably -- came from the
4 director for defense information, Colonel
5 Bridges.
6 Q Who in the media made such an
7 inquiry?
8 A I do not know.
9 Q Next page, entries at the top that
10 are blacked out, did any of those, this is
11 page three, relate to Tripp or Mayer?
12 A No.
13 Q Entry at 9:00 to 9:25?
14 A Yes.
15 Q It says, "DOC Cooke re: Tripp's
16 security clearance with Al Papenfus." Who is
17 al Papenfus?
18 A He's the director for personnel and
19 security. Works for DOC Cooke.
20 Q What did you mean by these
21 notations up to the notations with Al
22 Papenfus?
349
1 A As a result of the question or the
2 statement at the bottom of page two and -- it
3 was determined, and I can't recall how it was
4 determined, that the way that the security
5 clearance starts, the investigation starts,
6 is to give a copy of the 398 to DOC Cooke, so
7 I gave it to him.
8 Q At this point you had already
9 released the information to Mayer?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Correct?
12 So why did you give the 398 to DOC
13 Cooke?
14 A That's -- that started the
15 investigation into the -- into Linda
16 Tripp's -- the investigation into her
17 security clearance itself.
18 Q So you were initiating an
19 investigation into whether or not she had
20 lied on Form 398?
21 A I was not, but the -- but the
22 Department was.
350
1 Q Who initiated that inquiry?
2 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to object
3 to that. That is beyond the scope. We're
4 giving you some latitude on this.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Was that Secretary Cohen himself
7 who initiated it?
8 MR. QUINLIVAN: No, I'm directing
9 the witness not to answer that question.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Was any inquiry initiated into why
13 you and Mr. Bacon had released information to
14 Jane Mayer?
15 MR. QUINLIVAN: I'm going to object
16 to that question on the same grounds.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Is there any such inquiry or
20 investigation into your or Mr. Bacon's
21 release of information?
22 MR. QUINLIVAN: Same objection.