1


       1            UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
                        DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
       2
            -----------------------------x
       3    CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER et al.,:
                                         :
       4                Plaintiffs,      :
                                         :
       5                                 :
                       v.                : Civil Action
       6                                 : No. 96-2123 (RCL)
            FEDERAL BUREAU OF            :
       7    INVESTIGATION et al.,        :
                                         :
       8                Defendants.      :
            -----------------------------x
       9
                                              Washington, D.C.
      10
                                        Monday, March 16, 1998
      11

      12    Deposition of

      13                   JAMES CARVILLE

      14    a witness, called for examination by counsel

      15    for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and

      16    agreement of counsel, beginning at

      17    approximately 10:13 a.m. at the offices of

      18    Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W.,

      19    Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary

      20    public in and for the District of Columbia,

      21    when were present on behalf of the respective

      22    parties:








                                                              2


       1    APPEARANCES:

       2       On behalf of Plaintiffs:

       3          LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
                  Judicial Watch
       4          501 School Street S.W., Suite 725
                  Washington, D.C.  20024
       5          (202) 593-8442

       6       On behalf of Government Defendants:

       7          JULIA FAYNGOLD, ESQUIRE
                  ALLISON C. GILES, ESQUIRE
       8          Federal Programs Branch
                  Civil Division
       9          United States Department of Justice
                  901 E Street N.W.
      10          Washington, D.C.  20530
                  (202) 524-3716
      11
                  JON PIFER, ESQUIRE
      12          Office of the General Counsel
                  Federal Bureau of Investigation
      13          935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W.
                  Washington, D.C.  20535
      14          (202) 324-4522

      15          SALLY PATRICIA PAXTON, ESQUIRE
                  Special Associate Counsel to the President
      16          The White House
                  Washington, D.C.
      17          (202) 456-5079

      18       On behalf of Defendant Hilary Rodham Clinton:

      19          PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE
                  Williams & Connolly
      20          725 12th Street N.W.
                  Washington, D.C.  20005
      21          (202) 434-5803

      22








                                                              3


       1    APPEARANCES (CONT'D):

       2       On behalf of Deponent:

       3          JO BENNETT MARSH, ESQUIRE
                  McDaniel & Marsh
       4          118 West Mulberry Street
                  Baltimore, Maryland  21201-3600
       5          (410) 685-3810

       6       On behalf of Witness Craig Livingstone:

       7          DAVID S. COHEN, ESQUIRE
                  Miller Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, L.L.P.
       8          2555 M Street N.W.
                  Washington, D.C.  20037-1302
       9          (202) 833-6503

      10

      11                    *  *  *  *  *

      12

      13

      14

      15

      16

      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22








                                                              4


       1                   C O N T E N T S

       2    EXAMINATION BY:                            PAGE

       3       Counsel for Plaintiffs                     6

       4    CARVILLE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:

       5    No.  1 - Subpoena, Attachments               12

       6    No.  2 - Re-Notice of Deposition,            15
                      Attachments
       7
            No.  3 - Objection to Subpoena for           22
       8              Production of Documents

       9    No.  4 - Memorandum and Order                23

      10    No.  5 - Article: "Carville's Delayed        33
                      Departure"
      11
            No.  6 - Declaration Under Penalty           37
      12              of Perjury, Attachments

      13    No.  7 - Fax, McDaniel to Klayman,           39
                      Attachments
      14
            No.  8 - Sketch                              63
      15
            No.  9 - Filegate File                       63
      16
            No. 10 - Judicial Watch File                 63
      17
            No. 11 - Opinion, United States Court        77
      18              of International Trade,
                      Attachments
      19
            No. 12 - February 23, 1997, News            103
      20              Release

      21    No. 13 - Kendall-Bennett Statement          182

      22








                                                              5


       1    CARVILLE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS (CONT'D):     PAGE

       2    No. 14 - February 23, 1998, Broadcast       202
                      Transcript
       3
            No. 15 - February 8, 1998, Broadcast        293
       4              Transcript

       5    No. 16 - Article: "Carville: I              317
                      Zapped Starr's Charges"
       6
            No. 17 - January 25, 1998, Broadcast        320
       7              Transcript

       8    No. 18 - Calendars                          354

       9    No. 19 - Livingstone Investigation          374
                      Report
      10
            No. 20 - "Gingrich Keeps His Promise"       412
      11              Statement

      12    No. 21 - "Selected Investigations"          415
                      List
      13
            No. 22 - Book Jacket, Attachment            425
      14
            No. 23 - Fax, Cohen to Klayman,             435
      15              Attachment

      16
                            *  *  *  *  *
      17

      18

      19

      20

      21

      22








                                                              6


       1                P R O C E E D I N G S

       2              VIDEOGRAPHER:  Good morning.  This

       3    is the video deposition of James Carville,

       4    taken by counsel for Plaintiffs in the matter

       5    of Carla Leslie Alexander et al. v. Federal 

       6    Bureau Of Investigation et al. held in the

       7    U.S. District Court for the District of

       8    Columbia, case number 96-2123, in the offices

       9    of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street,

      10    Southwest, on this date, March 16, 1998, and

      11    at the time indicated on the video screen,

      12    which is 10:13 a.m.

      13              My name is Sylvanus Holley; I'm the

      14    videographer.  The court reporter today is

      15    Joan Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting.

      16              Will counsel now introduce

      17    themselves?

      18              MR. KLAYMAN:  Larry Klayman on

      19    behalf of Judicial Watch.

      20              MR. FITTON:  Tom Fitton, legal

      21    assistant, Judicial Watch.

      22              MR. BUSTION:  Don Bustion,








                                                              7


       1    attorney, Judicial Watch.

       2              MR. GAFFNEY:  Paul Gaffney on

       3    behalf of the first lady.

       4              MS. MARSH:  Joe Bennett Marsh on

       5    behalf of the deponent, James Carville.

       6              MS. PAXTON:  Sally Paxton with the

       7    White House.

       8              MS. GILES:  Allison Giles with the

       9    Department of Justice on behalf of EOP and

      10    the FBI.

      11              MR. COHEN:  David Cohen on behalf

      12    of Craig Livingstone.

      13              MS. FAYNGOLD:  Julia Fayngold with

      14    the Department of Justice on behalf of the

      15    EOP and the FBI.

      16              MR. PIFER:  John Pifer on behalf of

      17    FBI.

      18    Whereupon,

      19                   JAMES CARVILLE

      20    was called as a witness and, having been

      21    first duly sworn, was examined and testified

      22    as follows:








                                                              8


       1              EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS

       2              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       3         Q    Mr. Carville, have you ever been

       4    deposed before?

       5         A    Yes, twice.

       6         Q    When was that?

       7         A    One time last year sometime in

       8    connection with a lawsuit in California, and

       9    another time in --

      10         Q    Let's stop there.  What was the

      11    name of that lawsuit?

      12         A    I don't know the name of the

      13    lawsuit, but Bill 컴컴 was a defendant and it

      14    had to do with somebody sued him for -- it

      15    was a referendum for 컴컴 a television spot,

      16    and I was called by the defendant to talk

      17    about political advertising.

      18         Q    What court was that in?  Was it in

      19    Los Angeles?  San Francisco?  San Diego?

      20         A    The deposition took place in San

      21    Francisco, but I think the court was in

      22    Monterey County.








                                                              9


       1         Q    State court?

       2         A    Yeah, I'm almost positive it's

       3    state court.

       4         Q    The second time?

       5         A    Was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, in

       6    connection with -- when I worked in the

       7    mayor's office an attorney was trying to

       8    recover some fees for bond work he'd done by

       9    the name of Fred Benton, and they called for

      10    me to testify about what kind of work he did

      11    or that kind of thing.

      12              I mean, in neither one was I a

      13    party to the suit.  In one I was called I

      14    guess as an expert and political advertiser.

      15    I don't know what happened to the case.  I

      16    assumed it settled or so long I hadn't heard

      17    any more, and I don't know what happened to

      18    Fred Benton's case because -- I'm pretty sure

      19    that was his name and I'm trying to think.  I

      20    think that's the only two times I've ever

      21    been deposed.

      22         Q    Have you ever been under oath








                                                              10


       1    before other than providing an affidavit,

       2    giving oral testimony under oath?

       3         A    I was under oath in those two

       4    depositions.

       5         Q    Anything other than that?

       6         A    I used to be a lawyer, but I don't

       7    think we ever were under oath.  Normal course

       8    of practice under oath.  I don't think -- I

       9    really don't think so, Mr. Klayman.

      10         Q    You are a lawyer, are you not?

      11         A    Well, I said, in an absolute,

      12    broadest sense of the word.  They said of the

      13    Attorney General of Louisiana one time, you

      14    want to hide anything from me put it in a law

      15    book.

      16         Q    You did go to law school and you

      17    passed the bar exam?

      18         A    Yes.

      19         Q    Do you still pay bar dues?

      20         A    Inactive status, yes.

      21         Q    In Louisiana and where else, if

      22    anywhere?








                                                              11


       1         A    Just Louisiana.

       2         Q    So you do know what it means to be

       3    under oath?

       4         A    I do.

       5         Q    That means not just telling the

       6    truth but everything you know, not shading

       7    it.  Understand that?

       8         A    I can only tell you what I know.

       9         Q    Let's just as a preliminary matter

      10    ask this deposition convened at 10:15 a.m.

      11    I'm not being accusatory in any way.  There

      12    was difficulty trying to find where this

      13    office was located.  I want to have an

      14    understanding as to whether there is any kind

      15    of time constraint that's going to arise

      16    later in terms of this deposition today.

      17              MS. MARSH:  My understanding is

      18    that there's an order entered in the case

      19    that allows depositions to go for six hours

      20    and no more, so we understand that we're

      21    subject to that order and we'd like to go

      22    through with as few breaks as possible so








                                                              12


       1    Mr. Carville can go to South America.

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  That would be fine.

       3    I just wanted to make sure some time in the

       4    afternoon we aren't informed by surprise that

       5    Mr. Carville has to leave.

       6              MS. MARSH:  No.  We intend to be

       7    here for six hours if that's what it

       8    requires.

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  There were certain

      10    documents requested in the subpoena, and I'll

      11    ask that the court reporter mark, as Exhibit

      12    1, the subpoena that was served on you,

      13    Mr. Carville, on February 24, 1998.

      14                   (Carville deposition Exhibit

      15                   No. 1 was marked for

      16                   identification.)

      17              MS. MARSH:  Do you have a copy of

      18    that exhibit for me?

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Before I get into

      20    this, just let the record reflect my

      21    continuing objection with regard to the

      22    presence of Ms. Sally Paxton from The White








                                                              13


       1    House as well as Mr. Cohen on behalf of

       2    Mr. Livingstone, both of whom are material

       3    witnesses in the case, and I ask that they

       4    not consult with the witness during this

       5    testimony.

       6              MS. PAXTON:  We note your objection

       7    and we reject it.

       8              MR. COHEN:  And I will refer you to

       9    what I said at the outset of the

      10    Stephanopolous deposition.  Your request that

      11    I not consult with the witness is something

      12    that I have no intention of abiding by.

      13              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm happy to get your

      14    clear indication of that yet once more.  Let

      15    the record also reflect that Mr. Cohen is

      16    here and his position is that his client is

      17    not a party to this case at this present

      18    time, yet you are sitting at table with

      19    counsel.

      20              MR. COHEN:  Right.  As I recall, on

      21    the Geraldo Rivera show the other night you

      22    said that the depositions were open to the








                                                              14


       1    public and one could attend.

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not seeking to

       3    say that you can't attend, Mr. Cohen.  I just

       4    wanted to note that were allowing the

       5    courtesy to be here but your flippant remarks

       6    obviously speak for themselves.

       7              MR. COHEN:  Didn't you say that?

       8              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       9         Q    Mr. Carville, would you please look

      10    at Exhibit 1?

      11         A    Exhibit A --

      12              MS. MARSH:  Do you want him to look

      13    at the one that's actually marked or my copy.

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  If you'd like to look

      15    at the one that's marked, that's fine.

      16              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Now, Exhibit 1

      17    is this whole thing?  Okay.  Go ahead.

      18              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      19         Q    Right.  Take a look at that,

      20    Mr. Carville.

      21              MS. MARSH:  Do you want him to look

      22    at any particular part of it?








                                                              15


       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  Just take a look at

       2    it.  I'm going to ask him to confirm that

       3    that's a copy of the subpoena duces tecum he

       4    received on February 24.

       5              THE WITNESS:  Best of my memory it

       6    looks like it.  I mean, I can't -- this is

       7    not the actual --

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll show you what

       9    I'll ask the court reporter to mark as

      10    Exhibit 2.

      11                   (Carville Deposition Exhibit

      12                   No. 2 was marked for

      13                   identification.)

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Exhibit 2 is a

      15    renotice of deposition duces tecum calling

      16    for your attendance here today at 10:00 a.m.

      17              MS. MARSH:  Was this served on

      18    Mr. Carville with the subpoena?

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  This was not.  This

      20    was served on you, Ms. Marsh, the renotice of

      21    deposition, Exhibit 2.

      22              BY MR. KLAYMAN:








                                                              16


       1         Q    Have you ever seen Exhibit 2

       2    before, Mr. Carville?

       3         A    I don't think.  The one that I saw

       4    has this kind of cover thing on it.

       5         Q    Exhibit 1?

       6         A    Right.

       7         Q    Now, after you received that

       8    subpoena, what if anything did you do with

       9    it?

      10         A    Well, sent it to Ms. Marsh and I

      11    looked -- I went through each of the subpoena

      12    through the things that you asked for and

      13    then went through my -- whatever I had to try

      14    to find what you needed subject to Ms. Marsh

      15    objecting to some things in that.

      16         Q    Have you produced any documents

      17    today?

      18              MS. MARSH:  He has some, yes.

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  May we have them?

      20              MS. MARSH:  As you know we have

      21    served on you an objection to certain of the

      22    document requests in here.








                                                              17


       1              MR. KLAYMAN:  When was that?  We

       2    have no knowledge of an objection.

       3              MS. MARSH:  I mailed it to you last

       4    week.

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  We have not seen it.

       6    Do you have another copy of that?

       7              MS. MARSH:  I have one in my

       8    pleadings file that I can show to you if you

       9    want to have somebody make a copy of it, they

      10    can.  It was mailed to you on the 10th.

      11              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      12         Q    While we're waiting for that copy,

      13    Mr. Carville, did you search for each and

      14    every category of documents requested in this

      15    subpoena?

      16         A    I did.

      17         Q    Where did you search?

      18         A    I can't read this one.

      19              MS. MARSH:  But that's the

      20    subpoena.  This is not.

      21              THE WITNESS:  Okay.  But, look, I

      22    mean, I don't know where I searched in my








                                                              18


       1    office for things are kept.

       2              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       3         Q    Where is your office?

       4         A    112 5th Street, Southeast.

       5         Q    How long have you been there?

       6         A    I think we moved there -- was it

       7    November of -- I can't remember even where I

       8    live.  November of '96.

       9         Q    Who's we?  There's more than one

      10    individual occupy that space?

      11         A    Well, we rent a house, my wife and

      12    I and baby rent a place in Washington.  We

      13    live out in Virginia but when I'm in town, I

      14    stay there.  When I say "we" it's all one

      15    building.

      16         Q    That's a house?  It's not an

      17    office?

      18         A    It's kind of a basement kind of

      19    deal.  It's an office in the basement.

      20         Q    Does anybody work with you at that

      21    office?

      22         A    Mm-hmm.








                                                              19


       1         Q    Who?

       2         A    Todd Dilorenzo.

       3         Q    And how long has he been with you?

       4         A    Since -- I really can't remember

       5    when Todd started because he was an intern

       6    and then he sort of, you know, bled into the

       7    position he was in.  My guess is since '95

       8    but that's just a guess.

       9         Q    Where did he work before he worked

      10    for you?

      11         A    He was an intern at the White House

      12    and wrote a letter asking to leave and wanted

      13    to work for me.

      14         Q    At the Clinton White House?

      15         A    Yes, sir.

      16         Q    Who did he work for at the Clinton

      17    white house?

      18         A    I don't know.

      19         Q    What office did he work in?

      20         A    I don't know.

      21         Q    Who else works with you?

      22         A    Math Reames.  He's my nephew.








                                                              20


       1         Q    How is that spelled?

       2         A    R-e-a-m-e-s.

       3         Q    Did he work anywhere before you

       4    joining you?

       5         A    He was in school in Louisiana, and

       6    I let him work for me and he goes to the

       7    University of Maryland at night and he also

       8    kind of lives downstairs.

       9         Q    When you say these people work for

      10    you are they working for you personally or

      11    are they working for a company?

      12         A    They're working for me personally.

      13         Q    Do you pay them personally?

      14         A    Mm-hmm.

      15         Q    You have a company that's located

      16    there, do you not, or a nonprofit

      17    organization?

      18         A    Well, it was on Pennsylvania

      19    Avenue, and in terms of -- what we do is -- I

      20    don't have anybody at the nonprofit at this

      21    moment.  I just kind of -- I guess it was a

      22    nonprofit.








                                                              21


       1         Q    When these people receive their

       2    pay, do they get pay on a regular basis?

       3         A    Yes.

       4         Q    Do they get checks or do they get

       5    cash?

       6         A    They get whatever the bookkeeper

       7    gives them.  I mean, they get a check.

       8         Q    Whose check is it?

       9         A    James Carville.

      10         Q    What bank is it drawn on?

      11         A    Signet, I think, but I don't know.

      12         Q    Anybody else work with you there?

      13         A    Kevin Murphy.

      14         Q    And what was Kevin Murphy's job

      15    before joining you?

      16         A    He was a writer, and it's a young

      17    guy just out of college, and best I can

      18    remember he did free-lance stuff.

      19         Q    For who primarily?

      20         A    I don't remember.  I could call and

      21    find out.

      22         Q    Anyone else?








                                                              22


       1         A    That's it.

       2         Q    Does he get paid by you personally

       3    as well?

       4         A    He does.

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll ask that the

       6    court reporter mark as Exhibit 3 the

       7    purported objection of James Carville to

       8    subpoena for documents.  I don't see a

       9    certificate of service on here.  Was a

      10    certificate of service on here?

      11              MS. MARSH:  No, there wasn't.  We

      12    served on you consistent with the rules on

      13    the 10th of March.

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  I would take issue

      15    with that, Ms. Marsh, particularly in light

      16    of the history of this case and this

      17    deposition.

      18              MS. MARSH:  I'm sure you would.

      19                   (Carville Deposition Exhibit

      20                   No. 3 was marked for

      21                   identification.)

      22              BY MR. KLAYMAN:








                                                              23


       1         Q    Do you keep a mail log at your

       2    firm, Ms. Marsh?

       3              MS. MARSH:  I'm not under

       4    deposition, Mr. Klayman.

       5              MR. KLAYMAN:  I thought maybe you

       6    would proffer for the court.

       7              MS. MARSH:  I'm not here to answer

       8    your questions today.

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify this.  I ask

      10    the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 4, a

      11    copy of the memorandum and order of the court

      12    of March 13, 1998.

      13                   (Carville Deposition Exhibit

      14                   No. 4 was marked for

      15                   identification.)

      16              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      17         Q    Have you ever seen this court order

      18    before, Mr. Carville?

      19         A    I have.

      20         Q    When did you see it?

      21         A    Friday, I guess.

      22         Q    Who provided it to you?








                                                              24


       1         A    Ms. Marsh faxed it to me.

       2         Q    Are you aware that in this order

       3    the court rules that you and counsel have

       4    misled the court?

       5              MS. MARSH:  Objection.  Misstates

       6    what's in the order.

       7              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       8         Q    You can respond.

       9              MS. MARSH:  Do you want to read it?

      10              THE WITNESS:  What is the

      11    relevance --

      12              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      13         Q    I'm just asking whether you read it

      14    and if that's your understanding.

      15         A    I understand the motion was denied.

      16         Q    Have you ever read this order

      17    before, Exhibit 4?

      18         A    Yeah, I read through it.  I mean, I

      19    haven't gone through it with a fine-toothed

      20    comb.

      21         Q    Is it your understanding the court

      22    has ruled that you and your counsel misled








                                                              25


       1    the court with regard to the dates of your

       2    deposition?

       3              MS. MARSH:  Objection.

       4              THE WITNESS:  I mean, I don't

       5    see -- give me the relevant sentence where he

       6    says it.

       7              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       8         Q    I'm just asking whether you read

       9    it.  The order speaks for itself.

      10              MS. MARSH:  You're asking him

      11    whether it states a certain thing.  You're

      12    asking more than whether he read it.  If

      13    you're going to read it, read the whole

      14    thing, James.

      15              THE WITNESS:  If you point me to

      16    the language.  It says my departure was on

      17    March 16, I think, is essentially the way

      18    that I read it.

      19              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      20         Q    Other than the fact that the order

      21    was denied, having read this complaint last

      22    Friday, Mr. Carville, what was your








                                                              26


       1    understanding as to the court's position

       2    vis-a-vis your candor and truthfulness

       3    towards the tribunal concerning the date of

       4    this deposition.

       5              MS. MARSH:  You said "complaint."

       6    I think you meant "order."

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  Order.

       8              THE WITNESS:  My understanding is,

       9    is that the judge -- the thing that he

      10    expressed in there was that the original

      11    travel itinerary we sent over had us

      12    departing the night of March 16, I guess it

      13    is, and then subsequent to that I said that I

      14    was leaving the night of March 15.  I mean,

      15    that's my best interpretation.

      16         Q    And you read this order carefully

      17    last Friday?

      18         A    I read it pretty good.  I mean, I

      19    didn't read it -- I mean, I knew it said that

      20    I had to be here today but I didn't read

      21    it -- you know, for every detail but it told

      22    me to show up.








                                                              27


       1         Q    At the time that you read it, was

       2    it your view, having read it, that the court

       3    was being critical of your behavior and your

       4    counsel's behavior?

       5              MS. MARSH:  Objection.

       6              THE WITNESS:  Well, I mean, the

       7    judge -- the way that I read it is he thought

       8    I could be here and thought I was going to

       9    leave the night of Monday the 16th, anyway,

      10    and probably didn't --

      11              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      12         Q    So the judge wasn't critical of

      13    your behavior in your opinion?

      14         A    Look, you can characterize it.  He

      15    certainly wasn't praising it, but he seemed

      16    to indicate that he thought that my flight

      17    was going to leave on the night of March 16

      18    and I could be here.  But --

      19              MS. MARSH:  Wait till he asks a

      20    question.

      21              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      22         Q    Turn your attention to page 12 of








                                                              28


       1    the court's order, the bottom.  I'm reading

       2    the last line, "In light of the entire

       3    panoply of facts currently before the court,

       4    the only logical conclusion this court can

       5    reach is that Marsh and Carville sought to

       6    mislead this court from the outset and to

       7    delay this deposition.  There was simply no

       8    other explanation as to why Marsh and

       9    Carville have not been completely forthcoming

      10    with the court from the outset of this

      11    unnecessary travail."  You read that last

      12    Friday, did you not?

      13         A    Boy, I don't know if -- I assume I

      14    did.

      15              MS. MARSH:  That was all his

      16    question was, did you read it last Friday.

      17              THE WITNESS:  I assume I did.

      18              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      19         Q    That is being critical at a minimum

      20    with you and Ms. Marsh, is it not?

      21              MS. MARSH:  Objection.

      22              BY MR. KLAYMAN:








                                                              29


       1         Q    Based on your understanding of what

       2    you just read?

       3         A    It says while the court understands

       4    misinterpret an order in good faith -- he was

       5    I think criticizing my counsel, but, anyway,

       6    yes, the judge was critical.

       7         Q    As a lawyer, you understand what

       8    this means, correct?

       9              MS. MARSH:  What do you mean what

      10    it means?  What do you mean by that?

      11              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      12         Q    What it means when the court says

      13    that you misled the court.  You understand

      14    the gravity of that, do you not?

      15              MS. MARSH:  Objection.  He's not

      16    here as a lawyer today.

      17              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      18         Q    Do you understand the gravity of

      19    that, Mr. Carville?

      20         A    Well, no one would like to have a

      21    judge, you know what I mean -- in my belief

      22    is I did not mislead the judge.  I would have








                                                              30


       1    preferred, you know, that the deposition be

       2    on the 24th so I could have gone but the

       3    judge is the guy that's in charge and do what

       4    he says.

       5         Q    My question was do you understand

       6    the gravity of when a court makes a ruling

       7    that an individual or entity has misled the

       8    court?  You understand that's a very serious

       9    manner?

      10              MS. MARSH:  Generally, you mean?

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  Generally.

      12              MS. MARSH:  Objection as to

      13    relevance.

      14              THE WITNESS:  Look, I will say I

      15    understand that the judge feels like we

      16    provided him with something and he said that.

      17    I'm sorry that he did and I'm here and I

      18    don't have a -- you know, I view when the

      19    judge says something to be a serious thing,

      20    he's a serious man.

      21              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      22         Q    You're aware that there is a case








                                                              31


       1    involving the healthcare task force, correct,

       2    there was a case on that?

       3              MS. MARSH:  Objection as to

       4    relevance.

       5              THE WITNESS:  I am aware of it.

       6              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       7         Q    And you became aware of that more

       8    than a year ago, did you not?

       9         A    I don't think so.

      10         Q    You knew there was a case

      11    concerning the healthcare task force?

      12         A    I knew there was a case I don't

      13    know when I became aware of it.

      14         Q    And you knew that there were

      15    sanctions with regard to Ira Magaziner's

      16    affidavit, did you not?  You knew about that,

      17    didn't you?

      18         A    I knew Ira got some kind of

      19    sanction, but I didn't know what it was.

      20         Q    And you knew the reason for the

      21    sanction was because there was a finding that

      22    individuals and entities had misled this








                                                              32


       1    court, correct?

       2              MS. GILES:  Objection.  The record

       3    in that other case speaks for itself.

       4              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       5         Q    You can respond.

       6         A    I did not follow that closely but I

       7    am aware that there was some sanctions with

       8    that but I don't know the details.

       9         Q    And in fact you've commented about

      10    this from time to time in the media, have you

      11    not, the healthcare task force case involving

      12    Ira Magaziner?

      13              MS. MARSH:  Objection.

      14              THE WITNESS:  I may have.

      15              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      16         Q    And you knew that the sanctions

      17    were issued by the same judge as this case?

      18         A    I did.  I was aware of that.

      19         Q    And you knew that before you were

      20    served with this subpoena by Judicial Watch,

      21    correct?

      22              MS. MARSH:  Objection as to








                                                              33


       1    relevance.

       2              THE WITNESS:  Well, yeah.

       3              MR. KLAYMAN:  Now, turning to what

       4    I'll ask the court reporter to mark as

       5    Exhibit 5.

       6                   (Carville Deposition Exhibit

       7                   No. 5 was marked for

       8                   identification.)

       9              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      10         Q    Exhibit 5 is an article which

      11    appears in the Style section of The

      12    Washington Post of today, March 16.  Have you

      13    seen this?

      14         A    I saw it this morning.

      15         Q    You saw it this morning?

      16         A    Mm-hmm.

      17         Q    You talked with somebody from the

      18    Reliable Source column of The Washington Post

      19    Friday or over the weekend, didn't you not?

      20         A    Maybe it was -- no.  Sunday.  Last

      21    night.

      22         Q    It was last night?








                                                              34


       1         A    Yeah.

       2         Q    Who did you talk to?

       3         A    컴컴.

       4         Q    And you gave her some information

       5    about the court's order, did you not?

       6         A    No, she had a copy.  She just

       7    called.

       8         Q    In fact, you told her the reason

       9    that you were called in for your deposition

      10    today was because Larry Klayman had been

      11    called a twerp by you?

      12         A    No, I did not.

      13         Q    What was the reason you told her

      14    that you were being deposed today as opposed

      15    to being deposed later?

      16         A    I said the judge made me.  She

      17    called me and apparently she had the ruling.

      18    I assumed that you faxed it to her and she

      19    called me and I said no such thing.  She just

      20    called me to get a quote to put in there.

      21         Q    You provided this quote?  Is it

      22    accurate: "'I consider myself to be a good








                                                              35


       1    citizen.  When I am required to be somewhere

       2    I will comply,' said Carville"?

       3         A    Yeah.

       4         Q    "Who was none too pleased"?

       5         A    That's her opinion.

       6         Q    But the quote is yours and it's

       7    accurate?

       8         A    It sounds like something I said but

       9    I can't remember -- I don't take issue with

      10    the accuracy of the quote.

      11         Q    You think it's a good citizen to be

      12    found by a court to have misled it?  Is that

      13    your view?

      14              MS. MARSH:  Objection.  Misstates

      15    the fact.

      16              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      17         Q    Is that your view?

      18         A    Well, you know, my own personal

      19    belief is I did not mislead the court and I'm

      20    sorry the judge felt that way but I'm not the

      21    judge, you know, but it was not my intention

      22    to mislead the court in any way.








                                                              36


       1         Q    So the bottom line is,

       2    Mr. Carville, this whole affair with regard

       3    to scheduling your deposition and submissions

       4    to the court, this is exemplary of what you

       5    think of yourself as a good citizen?

       6              MS. MARSH:  Objection.  Objection.

       7    It's argumentative.

       8              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       9         Q    Is that correct?

      10              MS. MARSH:  Objection.

      11              THE WITNESS:  I feel like I did not

      12    mislead the court.  I'm sorry if the judge

      13    feels that way but if that's what he said

      14    that's what he said.

      15         Q    The bottom line is you don't think

      16    you did anything wrong?

      17         A    No, I think what I put in there was

      18    the facts as I knew them.

      19         Q    You don't think your attorney did

      20    anything wrong?

      21         A    I don't know.  I don't think she

      22    did anything wrong.








                                                              37


       1         Q    So the bottom line is you have no

       2    problem in providing information to a court

       3    which is untrue, correct?

       4              MS. MARSH:  Objection.  There's no

       5    basis for asking that question.

       6              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       7         Q    You can respond.

       8         A    Of course, I would not provide

       9    information to the court that's untrue.

      10         Q    I'll show you what I'll ask the

      11    court reporter to mark as Exhibit 5.

      12              MR. COHEN:  I think you're on 6,

      13    Larry.

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Six.

      15                   (Carville Deposition Exhibit

      16                   No. 6 was marked for

      17                   identification.)

      18              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      19         Q    Have you ever seen Exhibit 6

      20    before?

      21         A    I have.

      22         Q    Who prepared Exhibit 6, the first








                                                              38


       1    draft?

       2         A    My attorney.

       3         Q    This wasn't prepared on typewriters

       4    at your office on Capitol Hill, was it?

       5         A    No, it was not.

       6         Q    Or anywhere else?

       7         A    No, sir, at her office.

       8         Q    Have you ever seen this declaration

       9    before, which is Exhibit 6?

      10         A    I have.

      11         Q    Did you sign it in person or did

      12    you sign it by fax?

      13         A    I signed it and then faxed it back.

      14         Q    And before you signed it, did you

      15    review it carefully to make sure everything

      16    in it was accurate?

      17         A    I did.

      18         Q    I turn your attention to paragraph

      19    13.  "I have reservations on American

      20    Airlines to fly to South America March 15,

      21    1998, returning on American Airlines March

      22    18, 1998."








                                                              39


       1         A    I do.  That is correct.

       2         Q    You currently hold those

       3    reservations?

       4         A    And I've held them since March 6,

       5    which I would be glad to supply document

       6    saying that.

       7         Q    And when did you make those

       8    reservations?

       9         A    March 6.  I made the original -- go

      10    ahead.

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  I'll show you what

      12    I'll ask the court reporter to mark as

      13    Exhibit 7.

      14                   (Carville Deposition Exhibit

      15                   No. 7 was marked for

      16                   identification.)

      17              THE WITNESS:  Mr. Klayman, I think

      18    if I can explain to you what happened.

      19              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      20         Q    Let me just ask the questions and

      21    you'll have an opportunity to explain.  I

      22    show you what has been marked as Exhibit 7.








                                                              40


       1    This is a copy of a document which was faxed

       2    to Larry Klayman by William Alden McDaniel

       3    junior of the firm of McDaniel & Marsh.  He's

       4    presumably the partner of Ms. Marsh.  On

       5    March 12, 1998.  It attaches a reply of James

       6    Carville of the same date, March 12, with a

       7    certificate of service March 12, 1998, signed

       8    by William Alden McDaniel.

       9              Now let's turn to Exhibit 1 to this

      10    correspondence and reply faxed to Larry

      11    Klayman of Judicial Watch and filed with the

      12    court on March 12, 1998.  Do you see Exhibit

      13    1?

      14         A    I do.

      15         Q    It's an American Airlines

      16    itinerary?

      17         A    I do.

      18         Q    Do you see where it says the

      19    flight, March 16, 1998?

      20         A    I do.

      21         Q    It doesn't say March 15, does it?

      22         A    It does not.  I can supply you with








                                                              41


       1    one that is dated the day after that that

       2    says March 15, and I'll be glad to explain to

       3    you what happened.

       4         Q    Let me ask the questions.  You'll

       5    have plenty of explaining to do.  I can

       6    assure you of that.  Now, this document on

       7    March 12, 1998, was in fact sent, Exhibit 7,

       8    after this declaration under penalty of

       9    perjury of James Carville was signed on March

      10    10, correct?

      11         A    Right.

      12         Q    Two days later, right?

      13         A    Okay.  If you let me explain, I can

      14    explain.

      15         Q    Let me finish.

      16              MS. MARSH:  He doesn't want you to

      17    explain.

      18              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      19         Q    And the declaration under penalty

      20    of perjury James Carville, which was Exhibit

      21    6 was filed with the court, correct?

      22         A    Correct.








                                                              42


       1         Q    So the affidavit which you swore to

       2    under penalty of perjury does not square with

       3    what was then faxed to Mr. Klayman and filed

       4    with the court on March 12, 1998, correct?

       5         A    Mr. Klayman, if you let me --

       6         Q    Yes our no?

       7         A    I'm not going to answer it because

       8    I want to explain it.  The document that was

       9    faxed to you, the American Airlines thing was

      10    not in the office.  That document -- we

      11    changed the reservation on March 6.  I would

      12    be glad to supply you with a document from

      13    American Airlines dated March 6, and I can

      14    back up and I can provide you witnesses to

      15    what happened.

      16              I have a speech in New York at 7:15

      17    on the morning of Thursday -- is it the 19th?

      18    Thursday the 19th at 7:15.  My nephew looked

      19    at my schedule, had me leaving on Monday to

      20    come back on Thursday morning to New York.

      21    Contractually, I was unable to do that when

      22    this whole thing -- this whole brouhaha








                                                              43


       1    started I said wait a minute, I got to leave

       2    Sunday night.

       3              I even went so far as to call

       4    Mr. Harry Rhodes at the Washington Speakers

       5    Bureau to see if it was possible that I could

       6    get someone to sub for my speech, maybe

       7    Mr. Stephanopolous, who I called and he said

       8    he couldn't because he was going to be out of

       9    town and I even asked Mr. Rhodes if it was

      10    possible that I could get in -- the flight

      11    gets in I think at 5:43 from Latin America;

      12    it gets in very early in the morning and it

      13    was scheduled for 7:15.  Contractually we

      14    were unable to do that.

      15              So when I saw that you got me where

      16    I can't back.  I got to leave Sunday, Monday,

      17    come back following night, Tuesday.  That's

      18    what happened.  We had it in there.  We were

      19    not in the office and Kevin Murphy when he

      20    asked to fax it to Bill, he faxed the

      21    itinerary of March 5, not March 6.

      22         Q    Yes or no, you never submitted to








                                                              44


       1    the court throughout this whole process of

       2    the last few weeks a copy of your airline

       3    ticket or itinerary for March 15, have you?

       4    Yes or no?

       5         A    The best thing for me to do,

       6    Mr. Klayman.  I'll submit it in 15 minutes.

       7         Q    Did you ever submit that to the

       8    court?

       9         A    This was an error that

      10    Mr. Murphy -- he picked up not the most

      11    recent itinerary.  Okay?

      12         Q    Did you ever submit that to the

      13    court?  Yes or no?

      14         A    I didn't see this.  Okay?  He just

      15    attached it to it.  Look, what I'm saying to

      16    you is not yes or no.  I'm saying to you that

      17    there's a document of which we can have here

      18    and supply to you that shows March 6, and

      19    I've given you the names of people that I

      20    talked to prior to March 12 to try to make

      21    arrangements where I could be here on Monday

      22    consistent with my contractual obligation.








                                                              45


       1    Now that's all I can tell you.

       2         Q    I just asked a simple question.

       3    Did you submit the March 15 ticket as you

       4    claim exists to the court at any time, yes or

       5    no?

       6         A    The ticket?

       7         Q    Ticket or itinerary?

       8         A    I didn't -- Mr. Murphy, when I was

       9    in Florida faxed this March 5 itinerary which

      10    was not the most recent itinerary.  Would you

      11    like --

      12         Q    As far as you know, this March 15

      13    ticket or itinerary was never submitted to

      14    the court, correct?

      15         A    That's right.  It was an error on

      16    Mr. Murphy's part.  Would you like the March

      17    6 itinerary?

      18         Q    The issue's already been decided.

      19    If you want to submit it to the court now,

      20    fine, Mr. Carville, do what you want.

      21              MS. MARSH:  He doesn't need your

      22    instruction, Mr. Klayman.  Let's go on with








                                                              46


       1    the deposition.

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  In fact, I ask that

       3    you do submit it to the court.

       4              THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  Be glad

       5    to.

       6              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       7         Q    Now, I'm referring also to the

       8    objection of James Carville.  What exhibit is

       9    that because you have the originals?

      10              MS. MARSH:  Exhibit No. 3.

      11              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      12         Q    Exhibit No. 3.  Have you ever seen

      13    this before, this document?

      14         A    I have.

      15         Q    When did you see it?  Today?

      16         A    No.  I saw it prior to today,

      17    Thursday or Friday of last week.

      18         Q    And you helped your counsel put

      19    this thing together on Thursday, Friday of

      20    last week, correct?

      21         A    No, some of it they did --

      22              MS. MARSH:  I don't want you to get








                                                              47


       1    into attorney-client privilege stuff.

       2              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's not privilege.

       3              MS. MARSH:  It is if he starts

       4    describing what he did.

       5              MR. GAFFNEY:  I'd also like to

       6    object.  I don't have a copy of this exhibit.

       7              MR. KLAYMAN:  It's not my fault I

       8    just saw it for the first time today.

       9              MR. GAFFNEY:  You're using it as a

      10    deposition exhibit in your own deposition.

      11              MR. KLAYMAN:  At a break we'll make

      12    a copy.

      13              MR. GAFFNEY:  No, I want it now.

      14              MR. KLAYMAN:  Then you can have it,

      15    Mr. Gaffney.  We'll get you a copy.

      16              THE WITNESS:  Go ahead.

      17              MR. KLAYMAN:  Can I continue to ask

      18    questions in the meantime?

      19              MR. GAFFNEY:  Absolutely.  I

      20    encourage you to do so.

      21              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      22         Q    So it was last Thursday and Friday








                                                              48


       1    that you saw this and had an input into it?

       2         A    Could have seen it before that but

       3    I think -- I know that I had it on Thursday

       4    or Friday when I got to Florida.

       5         Q    And who is it that searched for the

       6    documents in response to the subpoena?

       7         A    Me.

       8         Q    Did you use any of the office staff

       9    that we went over to help you search?

      10         A    Basically, I did it myself.  I had

      11    Kevin look through the computer because

      12    there's a better chance I can turn on a 747

      13    than I can turn on the computer.

      14         Q    Where do you keep documents in your

      15    office?

      16         A    In the file cabinet.

      17         Q    Where's the file cabinet located?

      18         A    Against the north wall.

      19         Q    Describe for me the internal

      20    arrangements of your office.  How is it

      21    configured?

      22         A    You want me to draw it for you?








                                                              49


       1         Q    Yes, I do.

       2              MS. MARSH:  Let him give you a

       3    piece of paper.  Don't draw on the exhibits.

       4              THE WITNESS:  I'm not much of an

       5    artist here.

       6              MS. MARSH:  What is it you want him

       7    to draw?  Just a layout of the office?

       8              MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes, and where the

       9    file cabinets are.  Where the file cabinets

      10    are, why don't you write "filegate"?  That

      11    will delineate that.

      12              MS. MARSH:  I don't want him to

      13    write "filegate." It has nothing to do with

      14    his file cabinets.

      15              THE WITNESS:  I'm going to try to

      16    sit here and give you serious, honest

      17    answers, so please make serious and honest

      18    observations.

      19              MR. KLAYMAN:  Good, I'm happy about

      20    that.

      21              THE WITNESS:  You come in the door

      22    here, my sofa is right there, telephone right








                                                              50


       1    here.  This is the office where Todd and

       2    Kevin and Matt work.  This is like a little

       3    kitchen and the file cabinet is right there.

       4              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

       5         Q    Can you just put an "F" where the

       6    file cabinet is?  What kind of files do you

       7    have?  Are they lateral files?

       8         A    I don't understand that.

       9              MR. KLAYMAN:  Mark that as Exhibit

      10    8, please.

      11              THE WITNESS:  I don't know what --

      12    I mean, I know what a lateral file is.  What

      13    is a lateral file?

      14              BY MR. KLAYMAN:

      15         Q    Files that have drawers that are

      16    horizontal that pull out.

      17         A    As best I can recall, there are six

      18    drawers that the two, two, and two.

      19         Q    And what do you store in there?

      20         A    I don't store nothing.  Todd puts

      21    it all in, you know, but I went and looked --

      22    I went through it with him when we were in

 

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