151
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
2 reflect we took a break to see if we could
3 stop the hammering upstairs. We wouldn't
4 want to let it be said, Mr. Ickes, that we're
5 hammering on you.
6 MS. SABRIN: The record speaks for
7 itself in that regard.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Dan Kleidman, he's known as a
10 pretty friendly reporter to the Clinton
11 Administration, isn't he?
12 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
13 THE WITNESS: Who?
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Daniel Kleidman, Kleidman.
16 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q In fact, that's why you've dealt
20 with him so much.
21 A I don't think that I said I dealt
22 with him.
152
1 Q You don't generally call reporters
2 that are unfriendly toward the
3 Administration, do you?
4 MS. SABRIN: Objection. Assumes
5 facts not in evidence as to who calls him.
6 THE WITNESS: Most of the calls
7 comes from reporters, they're initiated by
8 reporters to me; not all, but most.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Who else, if anyone, did you deal
11 with at Newsweek?
12 A I don't know. I don't have a good
13 memory on names. If you name some people
14 off, I can give you some --
15 Q Who do you deal with generally at
16 The La Times?
17 A I deal with Alan Solomon a lot. I
18 deal with David Willman. There are others.
19 Q New York Times?
20 A New York Times runs a gamut. I
21 mean you'd have to name some of the
22 reporters. But a number of the reporters who
153
1 are -- Vanetta, I've dealt with him.
2 Q Don Vanetta.
3 A Right. A number of other
4 reporters. If you want to name some names,
5 I --
6 Q Jeff Girth?
7 A I have not talked to Mr. Girth in a
8 long time.
9 Q His specialty is campaign finance,
10 correct?
11 A I don't know what his specialty is.
12 Q Washington Times, who have you
13 dealt with there?
14 A Now you really do tax my memory. I
15 don't know. I know that I talk to one or two
16 people at The Washington Times on very rare
17 occasion.
18 Q Jerry Seper, does that ring a bell?
19 A His name rings a bell, but I don't
20 know whether it's because I read his byline
21 or whether I've talked to him.
22 Q New Republic, who do you talk to
154
1 there?
2 A I don't know. They've had a couple
3 reporters, a couple of their reporters have
4 called me. I can't even recall their names.
5 They change over a lot.
6 Q Steven Glass?
7 A It doesn't particularly ring a
8 bell. I don't think I've talked to him. But
9 I may have.
10 Q David Graham?
11 A He does not ring a bell with me.
12 But, again, I may have.
13 Q Martin Peritz.
14 A I have talked to him, but not in
15 connection with this.
16 Q Have you ever talked to Murray
17 Wass?
18 A I may have talked to him once, but
19 I couldn't place him.
20 Q Jonathan Broder?
21 A I do, I recall talking to him on
22 occasion.
155
1 Q How many times have you talked to
2 him in the last four months, approximately?
3 Just roughly.
4 A I have no idea, Mr. Klayman. I
5 couldn't tell you with respect to any
6 reporter how many times I've talked to them.
7 I just have no recollection. I just couldn't
8 do it. Don't know.
9 Q David Korn?
10 A Doesn't ring a particular bell with
11 me.
12 Q Joe Conason?
13 A I've talked to Joe from time to
14 time.
15 Q You talk to him pretty frequently,
16 don't you?
17 A No, I said from time to time.
18 Q Jane Mayer?
19 A I talk to her from time to time.
20 Q About how many times have you
21 talked to Joe Conason since February of this
22 year?
156
1 A A handful.
2 Q How many times have you talked to
3 Jane Mayer since February of this year?
4 A Oh, I don't know, a couple of
5 handfuls.
6 Q Who at The Wall Street Journal do
7 you talk to?
8 A If you can name some names, I can
9 go down them. I can't recall anybody
10 directly.
11 Q In terms of your discussions with
12 the President and Mrs. Clinton since February
13 of this year, how many times have you talked
14 to the President?
15 A I don't -- probably no more than
16 four or five at the outside.
17 Q What were the subject matters of
18 your conversations?
19 A It depended on what he wanted to
20 talk about. But it can typically range
21 anywhere from whatever legislative or other
22 activity he is involved in or focused on at
157
1 the time of the phone call as well as just
2 generally the investigations.
3 Q When was the first such
4 conversation?
5 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
7 MS. SABRIN: If you understand the
8 question.
9 A When you say the first
10 conversation, in connection with what?
11 Q You said you've talked to him four
12 to five times since February of this year
13 when you embarked upon this activity that you
14 decided upon with Mr. Kantor.
15 A When was Monica Lewinsky, when did
16 that situation first --
17 Q January of '98.
18 A So we're talking February. Since
19 February when did I first talk to him -- I
20 have no idea. I don't have the foggiest idea
21 when I talked to him.
22 Q You have talked to him about the
158
1 Monica Lewinsky matter, have you not?
2 A I have.
3 Q You've talked to him about other
4 matters that related to the so-called Clinton
5 scandals or controversies, whatever you want
6 to call them. Correct?
7 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
8 THE WITNESS: I've talked to him
9 about, there are a number of controversies
10 that have been going on and I have talked to
11 him on occasion about those.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You've talked to him about the
14 Travelgate controversy?
15 MS. SABRIN: Within the last three
16 or four months?
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Since January.
19 A Since January?
20 Q Yes.
21 A The Travelgate, I don't recall
22 talking to him at all about Travelgate.
159
1 Q Have you talked to him about the
2 Filegate controversy since January?
3 A No. Not that I recall. Again, I
4 don't have a precise recollection of what we
5 talked about, but I don't recall any
6 discussion about Travelgate.
7 Q Have you talked to him about the
8 Paula Jones case since January?
9 A I think there's been some passing
10 conversation, but that was under litigation
11 being handled by his lawyers. So whatever
12 conversation -- I'm sure we talked about it
13 in passing.
14 Q You've talked to him about Kathleen
15 Willey?
16 A I think we did have a very brief
17 conversation about her at one point.
18 Q What did you discuss about Kathleen
19 Willey?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object
21 to that and instruct him not to answer.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond?
160
1 MS. SHAPIRO: No, he can't respond.
2 I'm going to instruct him not to answer.
3 That is a conversation that is subject to a
4 variety of privileges.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Which privileges?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: A variety of
7 privileges.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, name them.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, it could
10 potentially be a Presidential communication,
11 it could be deliberative, it could be a
12 number of privileges.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you claiming
14 Executive Privilege?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: I am instructing him
16 not to answer on the basis of privilege,
17 because it could be subject to Presidential
18 communications.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to know what
20 the basis is. You're instructing him.
21 That's obviously very unusual to tell someone
22 not to answer.
161
1 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think it is.
2 In fact, we've had this discussion and it's
3 been briefed. So I think you already have
4 the legal argument set forth in papers that
5 are currently before the court.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: How can you have
7 allowed him to respond to these earlier
8 questions and then arbitrarily tell him he
9 can't respond to this one with regard to
10 Kathleen Willey?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: I've allowed him to
12 identify subject matter, which I think is
13 appropriate. But I'm not going to allow him
14 to answer the question about what the
15 conversation was specifically.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Did you discuss with regard to the
18 President the letters that Kathleen Willey
19 had written to him?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I object and I
21 instruct him not to answer.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. Did you
162
1 discuss with the President the release of
2 those letters to Kathleen Willey -- from
3 Kathleen Willey, to the public?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Same instruction.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Mr. Ickes, did you play any role in
7 communicating with the press over Kathleen
8 Willey?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer that
10 question.
11 A I don't know what you mean by did I
12 play a role. Did I talk to the press about
13 Kathleen Willey? The answer is yes.
14 Q Did you talk to the press about the
15 letters that Kathleen Willey had written to
16 the President?
17 A After they became public, yes.
18 Q You are aware that those letters
19 were kept in the White House. Correct?
20 A I'm not aware of anything. I don't
21 know where they were kept.
22 Q You are aware that those letters
163
1 came from Kathleen Willey's personnel file?
2 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not, as I've said
3 before, I don't have attorney-client
4 privilege. I'm not employed by the White
5 House. I'm not at the White House. I don't
6 know where those letters came from.
7 Q Copies of those letters were
8 provided to you by the White House, were they
9 not?
10 A The only copies of those letters
11 that I have are what I've seen on television
12 and what I've clipped out of the newspapers.
13 Q Are you saying the White House or
14 any other source never provided you with
15 those letters?
16 A Not that I recall. They may have
17 faxed one or two letters over, but I have no
18 recollection of it, and I don't think they
19 did.
20 Q Do you keep an incoming fax log at
21 your office?
22 A No.
164
1 Q Is there any recordation system to
2 record incoming faxes?
3 A For our office, no.
4 Q Are incoming faxes stored in a
5 file?
6 A No.
7 Q I take it they are.
8 A No. It depends on what the fax is.
9 If there is a fax that I want to keep, I keep
10 it. If not, I throw it away.
11 Q But you may have the Kathleen
12 Willey letters on the premises. Correct?
13 A I think it is remote beyond belief,
14 because I do not have any recollection
15 whatsoever of any Kathleen Willey letters
16 being faxed to me.
17 Q But you may have them there.
18 You're not sure.
19 A I think my answer, which I've now
20 stated twice, speaks for itself.
21 Q Did you search before you came here
22 today for your deposition to see if you have
165
1 copies of any of the Kathleen Willey letters?
2 A I did. I mean and this whole
3 matter of searching, you haven't gotten into
4 it and I assume you're coming back to it, but
5 I've searched not only my home, as I talked
6 to you before, but searched my complete
7 office for anything that might pertain to
8 this subpoena, and turned it over to my
9 attorney, as I have done on any numerous
10 occasions with respect to searching for
11 documents in connection with all the other
12 subpoenas that have been served on me. I've
13 searched my home and searched my office, et
14 cetera.
15 Q In the course of your duties and
16 responsibilities as a lawyer both in private
17 practice and your work at the White House,
18 you are aware of a law called the Privacy
19 Act. Correct?
20 A I'm aware of it. I couldn't tell
21 you much more than it's called the Privacy
22 Act.
166
1 Q When you began to work for the
2 White House, was that the first time you'd
3 been employed by government, back in 1993?
4 A Yes, to best of my recollection.
5 Q They provided you with some
6 training or understanding as to what the
7 Privacy Act was?
8 A I don't recall that. There were
9 general briefings when we first came into the
10 White House. It happened a long time ago. A
11 lot has transpired since then. I've read a
12 lot. Much of what I've read is merged with
13 what I knew then. Whatever they briefed us
14 on, they briefed us on.
15 Q But you did gain information that
16 documents in a personnel file are
17 confidential and not to be released to the
18 public?
19 A That's my general understanding,
20 Mr. Klayman. When I gained that, I can't say
21 with any accuracy.
22 Q You're aware that documents
167
1 contained in FBI files are also covered by
2 the Privacy Act; you did learn that, didn't
3 you?
4 A I learned that. When I learned it,
5 I can't tell you either.
6 Q But you're aware of it today.
7 A I am vaguely aware of it today. I
8 couldn't give you much of a legal exposition
9 on it.
10 Q Now, before you discussed the
11 Kathleen Willey letters with members of the
12 press, did you make any effort to determine
13 from the White House whether that would be a
14 violation of the Privacy Act?
15 A I didn't, Mr. Klayman.
16 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A The reason I didn't is because my
20 discussion of the Kathleen Willeys were based
21 on what had been shown, what had been printed
22 in the press. So it didn't even dawn on me
168
1 to call up the White House to find out if I
2 had license to discuss with reporters what
3 had been printed in various national
4 newspapers and other media.
5 Q But you did discuss the contents of
6 the Kathleen Willey letters with the
7 President. Correct?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. That's
9 the same instruction.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 Now, you are aware, are you not,
12 that information from Linda Tripp's Pentagon
13 file has been released into the public
14 domain. Correct?
15 A I'm not -- I'm sorry. Would you
16 repeat the question?
17 Q You are aware that information from
18 Linda Tripp's Pentagon file has been released
19 to the public by the Pentagon. Correct?
20 A I know that there's been some
21 controversy about her personnel file. I
22 couldn't tell you, sitting here, what has
169
1 been made available to the public.
2 Q Do you know Linda Tripp?
3 A I recall when we first came to the
4 White House, I recall having met her.
5 Q How did you meet her? Under what
6 circumstances?
7 A She was working in the West Wing.
8 I was working in the West Wing. I, on
9 occasion, I would be in the counsel's office,
10 which is above where I worked, and I think my
11 recollection is that she was sitting there.
12 I typically introduce myself to new people
13 when I first walked in, especially if you are
14 working in a new job situation.
15 Q Did she introduce herself to you?
16 Did she then identify who she was?
17 A I think, as I recall, she had a
18 sign on her desk.
19 Q What did it say?
20 A I think it said either "Linda" or
21 "Linda Tripp." That's my best recollection.
22 But I don't want to quibble about that.
170
1 Q Well, who was she working for?
2 A My understanding was that she was
3 working for the counsel's office.
4 Q For Bernard Nussbaum, who was the
5 counsel at the time?
6 A Mr. Nussbaum was the counsel when I
7 first came to the White House, yes.
8 Q So she worked for him. Correct?
9 A I don't know who she worked for. I
10 said that she worked for the counsel's
11 office.
12 Q She worked for William Kennedy who
13 is another counsel. Correct?
14 A I have no -- as again, Mr. Klayman,
15 I don't know who she worked for. For the
16 third time, my best understanding was that
17 she worked for the counsel's office.
18 Q During your time at the White
19 House, did you ever have occasion to deal
20 with Linda Tripp in any way?
21 A As I said, I have been quite -- I
22 recall meeting her at some point in a very
171
1 casual way and I think introducing myself,
2 and she may well have introduced herself to
3 me.
4 Q Now, you testified that in the last
5 months since the Monica Lewinsky scandal
6 broke that you've had communications with
7 Jane Mayer of the New Yorker.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Were those communications in person
10 or by telephone?
11 A I think both. I think I met her in
12 my office either once or twice, and I've
13 talked with her on the phone on several
14 occasions.
15 Q The office that you're talking
16 about is the one with the space sharing
17 arrangement with the law firm.
18 A I don't know what law firm you're
19 talking about.
20 Q Where you share space.
21 A We don't share space. We rent
22 space.
172
1 Q Rent space. Where Ickes & Enright
2 are located you previously identified.
3 A Yes, but it's not a law firm.
4 Q That's where you met with
5 Ms. Mayer.
6 A That is where I recall meeting her
7 on one or two occasions, yes.
8 Q She set the appointment up or did
9 you set it up?
10 A I think she called me and asked me
11 if I would spend -- she was working on a
12 story. I don't even know what story it was.
13 She works on a lot of different stories.
14 Q It was a story involving Linda
15 Tripp, wasn't it?
16 A I have no idea. She works on a
17 number of different stories. She's a pretty
18 busy journalist. As I say, I've had contact
19 with her four, five, six occasions either in
20 person or by phone.
21 Q She came to visit you?
22 A She came to my office.
173
1 Q Was anyone else present when you
2 met?
3 A I don't recall. I don't think so.
4 Q What did she say to you?
5 A I don't know. I don't have the
6 foggiest idea. Mr. Klayman, I talk to a lot
7 of reporters and talk to a lot of people. I
8 can no more sit here under oath today and
9 tell you what I said to her and what she said
10 to me than the man on the moon.
11 Q Do you have a problem with your
12 memory?
13 A I don't think my problem is any
14 different from anybody else.
15 Q Are you currently on any
16 medication?
17 MS. SABRIN: I would object to the
18 extent you're asking him generally about
19 medication, but I wouldn't object if you
20 asked him about medication that might affect
21 his memory.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
174
1 Q Are you currently on any medication
2 today?
3 A I'm not going to answer that
4 because I don't think you have A right to
5 know that.
6 Q Is there anything today that may
7 impair your memory that you're on?
8 A Not that I know of, other than age.
9 Q How old are you?
10 A I was born in 1939, which has
11 already been asked and answered.
12 Q Did Ms. Mayer give you any
13 documentation when you met that first time?
14 A Not that I recall.
15 Q When did that meeting take place?
16 A I have no idea.
17 Q You don't have a clue when it took
18 place.
19 A It took place sometime in the time
20 frame that you set out beginning sometime in
21 February -- your time frame that we're
22 working on that I'm answering questions about
175
1 begins in, according to you, in early
2 February.
3 Q You said that you met with her
4 again. Correct?
5 A I said that I recall meeting with
6 her once and maybe twice.
7 Q What did you discuss during that
8 second possible meeting?
9 A Same answer as to the first
10 question you asked.
11 Q You don't have a clue.
12 A I don't recall. I talk to a lot of
13 different people about a lot of different
14 things. Under oath I could not say with any
15 certainty as to what I talked to her about.
16 Q General subject matter, talked to
17 her about the Clinton Administration?
18 A She was working on one of several
19 stories. I think it -- yeah. The general
20 subject matter was the situation known as
21 Monica Lewinsky generally, which is a pretty
22 broad topic, as we now, at least as I refer
176
1 to it.
2 Q Did you discuss Linda Tripp with
3 her?
4 A I think she may have raised the
5 name Linda Tripp. I don't think there was
6 any -- whatever discussion there was, if
7 there was any, was short-lived because I knew
8 nothing about Linda Tripp, other than what
9 I've testified to.
10 Q Did she ask you whether or not you
11 had information as to whether or not Linda
12 Tripp had ever been arrested?
13 A I don't recall her asking me that.
14 And -- I don't recall her asking me that.
15 She may have, but I don't recall it.
16 Q You've talked to her by telephone
17 many times since the Monica Lewinsky scandal
18 broke. Correct?
19 A No, no, no. Don't --
20 MS. SABRIN: Mischaracterizes prior
21 testimony.
22 A Mr. Klayman, don't put words in my
177
1 mouth. Come on. We're both professionals.
2 I've already testified how many times I
3 talked to her. If you want to characterize
4 two or three times as many, be my guest.
5 Q I believe you said you talked to
6 her frequently, but you may have met two
7 times.
8 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not going to be
9 baited by that. I've answered that question.
10 It is on the record. If you want the court
11 reporter to read it back, you can
12 characterize anything you want. I'm not
13 adopting your characterization.
14 Q What else did you discuss with Jane
15 Mayer?
16 A I don't recall with any
17 specificity.
18 Q Have you talked with Jane Mayer
19 recently?
20 A How do you define recently?
21 Q Within the last two months.
22 A Within the last two months? I
178
1 probably have talked to her once or twice.
2 Q Have you talked to her about
3 Judicial Watch and the legal proceeding that
4 you're here on today?
5 A I don't think that I have, no.
6 Q You're not sure.
7 A I'm not sure about much,
8 Mr. Klayman, but I'm -- as I say, my answer
9 speaks for itself.
10 Q Have you talked to her about the
11 article that she wrote in The New Yorker
12 about Linda Tripp?
13 A I do not think that I've talked to
14 her since that article came out.
15 Q You have seen that article.
16 Correct?
17 A I've seen it. Whether I've read it
18 or not is a different question.
19 Q You are aware that Clifford
20 Bernath, Pentagon spokesperson, has testified
21 in this lawsuit before Judicial Watch?
22 A I'm not aware of that until now.
179
1 Q Do you know Kenneth Bacon?
2 A I do.
3 Q Press secretary of the Pentagon?
4 A Mmm-hmm.
5 Q When did you meet Kenneth Bacon?
6 A I met him, I don't recall, within,
7 probably within the last two years, maybe
8 three years, very casually.
9 Q Have you ever talked to Kenneth
10 Bacon about Linda Tripp?
11 A A very -- we had dinner one night
12 with mutual friends, and it was a very short
13 conversation. He acknowledged that she'd
14 worked at the Pentagon. I did not ask many
15 questions about her.
16 Q When did you have dinner?
17 A I don't recall.
18 Q In the last few months?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Where did you have dinner?
21 A That's a good question. I eat out
22 a lot. I don't recall.
180
1 Q You said you had dinner with mutual
2 friends, though. Who were those mutual
3 friends?
4 A The friend was Steven Cohen. Oh,
5 that's right, I now recall. It was Steven
6 Cohen and we had dinner at his house.
7 Q Who was Steven Cohen?
8 A He's a friend of mine.
9 Q What is his profession?
10 A He is a professor of law.
11 Q Where does he practice?
12 A He doesn't practice law.
13 Q Where does he live?
14 A Do I have to give out Steven's --
15 MS. SABRIN: You mean the city or
16 the --
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah, well, I'm going
18 to ask for the address. You can give it to
19 me in confidence, if you want.
20 A He lives in Washington, D.C.
21 Q Does he do anything professionally
22 currently?
181
1 A I said he's a professor.
2 MS. SABRIN: He said he's a
3 professor of law.
4 A He's a professor of law.
5 Q Is he a professor of law for a
6 university?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Which university?
9 A Georgetown.
10 Q Who else was present at that dinner
11 conversation?
12 A To the best of my recollection, it
13 was myself, Mr. Bacon and Mr. Cohen.
14 Q Was your wife present?
15 A I don't think she was.
16 Q What's your wife's first name?
17 A Laura.
18 Q What specifically about Linda Tripp
19 was discussed?
20 A As I say, I think I've already
21 testified to that. But in order to
22 accommodate you, it was a very short
182
1 conversation. I knew nothing about Linda
2 Tripp and I think I may have asked Ken when
3 she came over to the Pentagon. But other
4 than that, we did not spend any time talking
5 about her.
6 Q He told you that Linda Tripp had
7 worked for him at the Pentagon and was still
8 working for him?
9 A Well, I think, here's the problem
10 with that question is that I've read about
11 Linda Tripp. What I learned from Ken and
12 what I learned from newspaper reports and
13 journalists has merged. I think I already
14 knew that when I had dinner with him.
15 Q How did you learn that before you
16 had dinner, just from the newspaper reports?
17 A Yeah, you know, there had been a
18 couple articles about Ms. Tripp.
19 Q You were aware that Monica Lewinsky
20 also worked for Mr. Bacon. Correct?
21 A I came to learn that also from
22 newspaper articles.
183
1 Q You discussed Monica Lewinsky at
2 that dinner as well?
3 A I think I may have -- I think her
4 name was raised. I knew her very briefly.
5 She'd work in the Chief of Staff's office. I
6 think I asked Ken what sort of employee she
7 was, and he had a very high regard for her as
8 an employee.
9 Q Did the name Clifford Bernath come
10 up during that dinner?
11 A No. Not that I recall.
12 Q Was Mr. Bacon's wife present at the
13 dinner?
14 A No. I think I've testified
15 earlier, just about two and a half minutes
16 ago, that only three of us were there, to the
17 best of my recollection.
18 Q It was kind of a men's dinner.
19 A Well, you can characterize it any
20 way you want. It was dinner, and you know
21 who was there.
22 Q Was there a servant that served the
184
1 meal during the discussions?
2 A No. Steven doesn't employ
3 servants. I think it was Chinese takeout as
4 I recall.
5 MS. SABRIN: What did you eat?
6 THE WITNESS: What did I eat?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: He probably remembers
8 that.
9 A No, as a matter of fact I don't.
10 Why, you find that funny? I was just looking
11 at the smile on your face.
12 Q Do you like my smile?
13 A I have no reaction to it one way or
14 the other. It's sort of a smirk.
15 Q Mr. Ickes, have you discussed Linda
16 Tripp with anyone else other than Mr. Bacon
17 in the last five months, since January?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Who have you discussed Linda Tripp
20 with?
21 A I have no idea. As I say, I talk
22 to a lot of reporters and a lot of people. I
185
1 could not sit here under oath with any
2 specificity to name, tell you what people
3 I've talked to about Linda Tripp. But I have
4 discussed her and discussed her with a number
5 of people. She's been in the news, after
6 all.
7 Q Have you had any discussions in the
8 last six months with William Cohen, Secretary
9 of Defense?
10 A No. I am not sure that I've ever
11 met Mr. Cohen nor am I sure that I've ever
12 talked to him.
13 Q Have you ever discussed Linda Tripp
14 with President Clinton?
15 A I don't have a specific
16 recollection of discussing Linda Tripp with
17 the President.
18 Q What do you mean by specific
19 recollection?
20 A Just exactly what it says.
21 Q That means you have a general
22 recollection. Right?
186
1 A No, I don't have a general
2 recollection either.
3 Q Where does the phrase "specific
4 recollection" come from?
5 A I think I just said it, and then
6 you repeated it.
7 Q That's a phrase which is used
8 frequently by people who have testified from
9 the Clinton Administration. Correct?
10 A I couldn't tell you.
11 Q Well, what does "specific
12 recollection" mean to you?
13 A It means what it says. You can
14 look it up in the dictionary.
15 Q Well, to me it means that you have
16 some recollection; you just don't have that
17 pinpoint recollection.
18 A Well, you can take it for whatever
19 it means.
20 Q Tell me what recollection you have.
21 A I don't have any recollection.
22 Q About anything?
187
1 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
2 THE WITNESS: It depends on what it
3 is. I thought we were going to be courteous.
4 You certainly are degenerating here pretty
5 quick.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Have you ever discussed Linda Tripp
8 with Mrs. Clinton?
9 A With Mrs. Clinton. I can't say as
10 an absolute certainty, but I am confident I
11 have not.
12 Q How many discussions have you had
13 with Mrs. Clinton either in person or by
14 phone or otherwise since January of this
15 year?
16 A Are we now in January or February?
17 Q We're going back to January.
18 A Oh, January. I think probably not
19 over three or four at most.
20 Q Were those discussions by phone or
21 were they in person?
22 A Both.
188
1 Q How many were by phone and how many
2 were in person?
3 A I think with -- probably no more
4 than two and maybe no more than one in
5 person, the rest by phone.
6 Q Where did you meet with
7 Mrs. Clinton?
8 A When you say meet, what do you
9 mean?
10 Q Did you meet at the White House?
11 A You mean, in which --
12 Q When you had the meetings where did
13 you meet?
14 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
15 It assumes facts not in evidence.
16 THE WITNESS: I saw Mrs. Clinton at
17 a reception that she and the President gave
18 probably two weeks ago at the White House.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q At the White House. Now, did you
21 discuss anything about the Clinton scandals
22 at that time?
189
1 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
2 THE WITNESS: It was a reception
3 for two people who were going away and we
4 exchanged pleasantries.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q What two people were going away?
7 A Is there not a relevance --
8 MS. SABRIN: Objection on
9 relevancy. It has absolutely nothing to do
10 with anything --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: There were people
12 that were there that may have overheard the
13 conversation.
14 MS. SABRIN: How many people were
15 there? Do you want to ask all 100 of them?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You can cross-examine
17 if you want. But when your turn comes.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Who were the two people?
20 A The two people who were going away?
21 Q Yes.
22 A One was Steven Silverman and the
190
1 other was Emily Bromberg.
2 Q What was Steven Silverman's
3 position before he went away?
4 A He worked in the White House.
5 Q Do you know what his position was?
6 A No, I don't know his exact
7 position.
8 Q Do you know what his duties and
9 responsibilities were?
10 A He worked in the office that dealt
11 with Cabinet affairs.
12 Q The other one is named Bromberg?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What was his duties and
15 responsibilities?
16 A Well, as I said just a moment ago,
17 but apparently you forgot, her name was
18 Emily.
19 Q Emily.
20 A Right. So it's a she not a he.
21 Q Thank you.
22 A Do you want to repeat your
191
1 question?
2 Q What were her duties and
3 responsibilities at the White House?
4 A She worked in Intergovernmental
5 Affairs.
6 Q Now, you discussed more than just
7 pleasantries with Mrs. Clinton, didn't you?
8 A I discussed pleasantries with
9 Mrs. Clinton. I was speaking at the event,
10 she was speaking at the event. It was a
11 social occasion and people were enjoying
12 themselves.
13 Q What was the subject of your
14 speech?
15 A I was lauding the two people who
16 were leaving.
17 Q Did you discuss any aspect of the
18 Clinton scandals?
19 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A Well, you're now switching back and
192
1 forth on me, Mr. Klayman, I assume by malice
2 aforethought. You're talking about my speech
3 or you're talking about my discussion?
4 Q Your speech.
5 A Oh, the speech. You used the word
6 "discussion," which you probably forgot. The
7 answer is I did not discuss the controversies
8 in the speech.
9 Q Did you discuss the controversies
10 otherwise during the evening?
11 A Oh, I may have. I mean there were
12 a lot of people there and there may have been
13 some minor discussion.
14 Q Who did you have that discussion
15 with?
16 A I have no idea. I talked to a lot
17 of people that --
18 Q That's one time you met with
19 Mrs. Clinton. Where did you meet with her
20 another time?
21 A I don't recall whether I met with
22 her. As I said, I was very qualified in what
193
1 I say. I do recall meeting with her once. I
2 may have met with her a second time. It may
3 have been at -- I don't even know when the
4 reception was. I think there was a dinner at
5 the White House to which my wife and I were
6 invited. The fact is I don't recall whether
7 it was before January, after January. I
8 would have talked to Mrs. Clinton there.
9 Q Did you talk to Mrs. Clinton on
10 this other occasion about Clinton scandals
11 any aspect?
12 A No. Again, it was a social
13 occasion. She was enjoying herself.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Go off the record for
15 a second.
16 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
17 video record at 12:48.
18 (Discussion off the record)
19 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
20 record at 12:48.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q During your various meetings or
194
1 conversations with Mrs. Clinton in the last
2 months since January of 1998, have you talked
3 about any aspect of the Clinton scandals?
4 A Oh, I'm sure that there have been
5 passing reference to it. But basically, my
6 discussion with her is how is she doing, how
7 is the President doing. It's sort of more
8 social, if you will, basically inquiring
9 about how she's doing.
10 Q What was the passing reference?
11 What did it reflect?
12 A I can't recall with any
13 specificity.
14 Q How about with just general?
15 A I can't even recall with general
16 specificity.
17 Q Don't have a clue.
18 A As I said, Mr. Klayman, for the
19 fourth time, I talk to a lot of people. As
20 you reminded me on more than one occasion
21 during this deposition, I'm under oath. I
22 wouldn't want to tell you anything that I
195
1 don't recall with specificity. So I cannot
2 tell you, I could not separate the
3 conversations that I've had with
4 Mrs. Clinton, with the President, and with
5 many members of the press, staff at the White
6 House, as to the nature of the conversations.
7 Q So is it your view that discussions
8 with President and Mrs. Clinton are just
9 discussions with any old people?
10 A I didn't say that.
11 Q That's the President and First Lady
12 of the United States. Correct?
13 A Yeah, I understand that.
14 Q They're important people, are they
15 not? Correct?
16 A I would certainly agree with that.
17 Q It doesn't get more important than
18 President and First Lady, does it?
19 A My wife's pretty important.
20 Q In your experience?
21 A My wife and daughter are pretty
22 important.
196
1 Q Do you remember conversations with
2 your wife?
3 A What?
4 Q Do you remember conversations with
5 your wife?
6 A It depends what the conversation
7 is.
8 Q Those are three very important
9 people. Correct?
10 A Yeah. My daughter, I added her in
11 there, too.
12 Q You tend to remember those
13 conversations, don't you?
14 A I didn't say that.
15 Q If you're calling or being called
16 by the President or First Lady, you'd
17 remember what you were talking about,
18 wouldn't you?
19 A Not necessarily. It depends on
20 what the conversation was about.
21 Q But you're telling me you don't
22 remember anything.
197
1 A That's not what I'm telling you.
2 MS. SABRIN: Objection, asked and
3 answered.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Then what do you remember?
6 A I'm telling you that I don't
7 remember with specificity what I talked to
8 them when I talked to them.
9 Q Well, then just tell me generally.
10 A I don't remember generally. It
11 depends. It depends what the President was
12 interested in, what legislation was pending,
13 what he was focused on at the time. I
14 couldn't any more tell you whether it was
15 tobacco or, you know, foreign affairs or what
16 have you that he talked about.
17 Q In your conversations with the
18 President and the First Lady, did they ever
19 thank you for your ongoing efforts on their
20 behalf, the efforts from January 1998
21 forward?
22 A Did they ever thank me?
198
1 Q Thank you for what you were doing
2 after you had this discussion with Mickey
3 Kantor and decided that you'd play some
4 voluntary role.
5 A I think it's fair to say, I don't
6 know what words they used, that both have
7 expressed appreciation for what I've been
8 doing and support generally.
9 Q What you've been doing currently.
10 A What?
11 Q What you've been doing currently,
12 since February of '98.
13 A Well, the President has thanked me
14 as has the First Lady over the course of our
15 long friendship on any number of occasions.
16 Pretty gracious people.
17 Q But he's thanked you for what
18 you've been doing since February '98.
19 A I think that they have expressed,
20 as I said for the second time, Mr. Klayman,
21 they have expressed appreciation. I don't
22 know the exact words.
199
1 Q They know what you've been doing
2 since February of '98. Correct?
3 A I don't report to them. The
4 conversations I have with them are very
5 short. They're very busy people. I don't
6 impose myself on them. You'll have to ask
7 them about what they know.
8 Q Well, how did they thank you if
9 they didn't know what you were doing?
10 A They knew that I have been
11 supportive.
12 Q They knew that you were doing
13 specific things in terms of communications
14 with the press. Correct?
15 A They knew generally that I was
16 talking with the press. I don't think they
17 knew any specifics.
18 Q Now, to be able to talk to the
19 press you have to get information from the
20 White House from time to time. Correct?
21 A As I said, now for the fourth time,
22 Mr. Klayman, I don't have attorney-client
200
1 privilege with the President. The
2 information, as I've explained to you in some
3 detail already but I'll as a courtesy to you
4 so we can move this thing along -- it's sort
5 of interesting how you criticize my memory
6 and you can't remember what was said half an
7 hour ago, but putting that aside, we'll just
8 put that aside. Maybe you're on some drugs
9 that affect your memory. I know nothing
10 that's not in the public domain.
11 Q But you do have communications from
12 time to time with the White House, and I'm
13 talking going back to January of '98, where
14 the White House provides information to you.
15 Correct?
16 A I have communications with the
17 White House about the ongoing situation. To
18 the best of my knowledge, and I'm quite
19 confident of this, the White House does not
20 provide me with any information that people
21 at the White House, the nonlawyer staff at
22 the White House know and, knowing how the