401
1 and assumes facts not in evidence.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q You were aware of that before this
4 conversation. Correct?
5 A Yeah. I think I was aware of that
6 and that may have been the basis for this
7 discussion.
8 Q During that discussion, people did
9 discuss that Hillary Rodham Clinton was the
10 mastermind of Filegate. Correct?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
12 MR. CARY: Objection to form.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You can respond.
15 A Nobody --
16 MR. SHAPIRO: You can answer the
17 question. We just object to the form of the
18 question.
19 A Oh. Nobody in their right mind,
20 and obviously I exclude Dick and Sherry --
21 not even Sherry. I exclude Dick from that
22 universe of people. Nobody in their right
402
1 mind thought Hillary Rodham Clinton was the
2 mastermind of anything regarding the FBI
3 files.
4 Q Why is that?
5 A That's just what we thought.
6 Q But obviously you must have sought
7 information to be able to rebut that charge.
8 Correct?
9 A This, as I recall, the independent
10 counsel was well into investigating this
11 whole matter at that point.
12 Q How do you know that?
13 A My recollection is that it was
14 shortly after this whole situation broke open
15 in June, which you sort of stipulated to,
16 that the FBI got involved. My best
17 recollection is that shortly after the FBI
18 was involved, the Attorney General expanded
19 or at least petitioned to expand Mr. Starr's
20 jurisdiction, and that he took over the
21 investigation of the FBI files. These notes
22 were taken in September. Again, this is best
403
1 recollection from a pretty faulty memory, but
2 I think it's safe to say that Starr had
3 jurisdiction at this point.
4 Q I didn't ask you what Starr did.
5 But as long as you're on that subject, were
6 you interviewed by any of Starr's people in
7 and around this time period?
8 A Not that I recall.
9 Q Was anyone else, to the best your
10 knowledge?
11 A You mean in connection with?
12 Q With Filegate.
13 A Not that I recall, no.
14 Q Were any of these people, Peter
15 Knight or Peter Kasdic or Lynn or Jack or
16 yourself, as listed on this document?
17 A You'd have to ask them.
18 Q Clearly there must have been a
19 conversation that went on as to whether or
20 not Hillary Clinton was the mastermind of
21 Filegate during this conversation. Correct?
22 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
404
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You can respond.
3 MR. CARY: Join in the objection.
4 A Well, the weight of the objection
5 seems to be on the other side. But I think
6 my best recollection is, again, to some
7 extent refreshed by this note, is that I
8 don't know when Sherry Rowlands' diary came
9 out. But I do recall what you said a little
10 bit earlier, that she, I think in her diary
11 had said that Dick had said to her that
12 Mrs. Clinton was the mastermind, I think. I
13 mean I'd have to look at the diary, but
14 that's my recollection of it. So there
15 clearly was talk about it, if that diary at
16 this time had been made public. There was
17 surely a lot of talk about it among the
18 chattering, nattering ���� of Washington. So
19 it was a subject of a lot of conversation,
20 assuming all those ifs, and I really don't
21 know when her diary was made public.
22 Q You've seen that, Sherry Rowlands'
405
1 diary?
2 A I have seen excerpts printed in
3 various newspapers. I couldn't tell you for
4 the life of me now much of what it said. But
5 I recall at the time.
6 Q Was any effort made by the White
7 House to get that diary?
8 A I don't know. You'd have to ask
9 someone like Jane Sherburne. My sense is,
10 Mr. Klayman, that that would have been --
11 especially at this period of time, I don't
12 think the White House was messing with this
13 stuff. This would have been up to Mr. Starr.
14 Q In and around this period of time,
15 June through September 10th, you had talked
16 with Mr. Morris, hadn't you, during that
17 period?
18 A What period of time? I'm sorry.
19 Q June when the controversy broke up
20 to the date of this conversation which was
21 September 9th, 1996, you had talked with
22 Mr. Morris during that interim period, had
406
1 you not?
2 A Oh, yeah. I had the unfortunate
3 experience of talking to Dick quite a number
4 of times. Actually, you didn't talk to Dick.
5 You listened to him.
6 Q You talked to Dick about the
7 Filegate controversy, among other things.
8 Correct?
9 A I don't think I would have ever
10 talked to Dick about something like that.
11 Most untrustworthy fellow, Dick.
12 Q You wouldn't want to share any
13 information with Dick.
14 A I didn't say that. But thanks for
15 trying.
16 Q You don't like Dick very much, do
17 you?
18 A He's all right. You know. He's
19 sort of an undisciplined chatterbox.
20 Q In fact, you hate him, don't you?
21 A No, I don't hate him. You know
22 that hate is something, Mr. Klayman, you
407
1 really have to invest a lot of energy in. I
2 don't invest a lot of energy in Dick Morris.
3 He ain't worth it. You know what I mean?
4 Q Why isn't he worth it?
5 A I'm just giving you my view of
6 life. You don't have to accept it; I'm just
7 giving you my view.
8 Q Why is he not worth it, based on
9 your impression?
10 A That's my judgment that I reached,
11 Mr. Klayman.
12 Q He's not a worthy individual?
13 A Huh?
14 Q He's not a worthy individual?
15 A Oh, I wouldn't call -- every
16 individual is worthy.
17 Q You consider him to be dishonest?
18 A I considered him to be unreliable
19 and in many cases a blatant liar. Now you
20 can interpret that any way you want.
21 Q What do you base your opinion on?
22 A I've had a long association with
408
1 Mr. Morris, much too long.
2 Q Give me an example of how he's lied
3 to you.
4 A He has just -- I was in a situation
5 with him in which he told President Clinton
6 something that George Stephanopoulos had done
7 and George didn't do it and I knew George
8 didn't do it and he just plain lied to the
9 President of the United States. I figure if
10 a man is going to lie to the President of the
11 United States he'd lie to anybody, don't you
12 think?
13 Q What did he say that George
14 Stephanopoulos had done?
15 A Oh, I don't know. It was some, I
16 can't even remember the details now, but it
17 was something that Dick had done and he was
18 trying to cover it up and lay it off on
19 George. But you know what I mean, a guy that
20 would sit there and lie to the President. Of
21 the United States.
22 Q Have you ever known the President
409
1 of the United States not to tell the truth?
2 A Not me. I've known him for 20
3 years.
4 Q You've never known him to tell one
5 untruth.
6 A Asked and answered, Mr. Klayman. I
7 know you want to pursue this, but asked and
8 answered.
9 Q Now, did you talk to Dick Morris
10 during this period? I know you just said you
11 did on many occasions.
12 A Asked and answered.
13 Q Yeah, right. I'm just laying the
14 foundation, getting back to it, Mr. Ickes.
15 A Yeah, I didn't forget my answer.
16 Q Did you discuss with him Sherry
17 Rowlands during this period?
18 A I have no recollection of
19 discussing Ms. Rowlands with him. I don't
20 think, just to put that in a little bit of
21 context, I don't think that the world at
22 large, including myself, knew about
410
1 Ms. Rowlands until the Star, I think it was
2 the Star that broke it during the convention.
3 I think that's when we --
4 Q This is after the convention,
5 correct?
6 A Yeah, but this time, you know, you
7 had started it, if you remember your
8 question, I'm sure you don't, you had started
9 your -- you had done your predicate between
10 June and now. I was working in that time
11 frame. I mean if you're going to change the
12 time frame, you ought to at least let me
13 know.
14 Q I'm keeping the same time frame.
15 A Yeah, June --
16 Q June to September 9th.
17 A Right, and I don't recall talking
18 to Mr. Morris because he was gone. He was
19 good-bye, he was toast.
20 Q There were people at the White
21 House who did communicate with Dick Morris to
22 find out why apparently this was written in
411
1 Rowlands' diary, correct, that Hillary was
2 the mastermind?
3 A You'll have to ask those people. I
4 don't know.
5 Q You were one of those people,
6 weren't you?
7 A One of those people who did what?
8 Q Who contacted Morris to find out
9 why Rowlands had written that Hillary Clinton
10 was the mastermind in her diary?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
12 MS. SABRIN: It's already asked and
13 answered that he didn't talk to him after
14 he --
15 A Are you in Fantasyland somewhere?
16 I mean I know it's getting late in the day
17 here, man, but you must, I mean you must
18 be -- this is Alice in Wonderland. You think
19 I'm calling Dick Morris to find out anything
20 about the truth from him? Come on.
21 Q Now, did you or anyone else on
22 behalf of the White House contact Dick Morris
412
1 to get him to prepare this affidavit where he
2 said he was really just discussing polling
3 data, not his statement that Hillary was the
4 mastermind of Filegate?
5 A I can only speak for myself,
6 Mr. Klayman. I did not contact Mr. Morris in
7 that regard.
8 Q Do you know who did?
9 A I don't know. I don't know if
10 anybody did.
11 Q Can you read the next part? Well,
12 let me back up. This was obviously discussed
13 during the conversation. Did anyone offer an
14 opinion or anyone offer any facts as to
15 whether or not Hillary Clinton was the
16 mastermind of Filegate during this telephone
17 conversation?
18 A Did anyone on this call?
19 Q Yes.
20 A Offer the proposition that she was
21 in fact the mastermind?
22 Q Yes, or offer any facts or express
413
1 any opinion or discuss the issue.
2 A You've asked me about three
3 questions. Do you want to parse them out and
4 just ask me one at a time?
5 Q Offer any facts.
6 A Did anybody on this phone
7 conversation offer any facts that would do
8 what?
9 Q That would go towards the
10 proposition that Hillary Clinton was the
11 mastermind of Filegate.
12 A No.
13 Q Did anyone discuss who had hired
14 Craig Livingstone during this call?
15 A Not that I recall.
16 Q Do you know whether these topics
17 ever came up at all in this call or at any
18 other time?
19 A Which topics?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Hillary Clinton being the
414
1 mastermind of Filegate other, than in this
2 call, was it ever raised that you know of
3 other than in this call?
4 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
5 A God, the newspapers were writing
6 about it all over hell's half-acre.
7 Q I'm talking about in the White
8 House or the people you were in contact with.
9 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You can respond.
12 A I am sure, Mr. Klayman, that
13 anything that was talked about as much as
14 this in the public presses was certainly
15 talked about in the White House. When,
16 where, whom, under what circumstances, what
17 was said, to whom it was said, what they
18 responded, I don't know.
19 Q Who participated in those
20 discussions?
21 A Beats me.
22 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
415
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Read the next part.
4 A Which part are we on now? "DM will
5 give Clinger back up documentation including
6 a poll to prove that all Morris was talking
7 about." Now -- go ahead, I'm sorry.
8 Q Somebody said that they had
9 information of what Morris was going to do
10 and give Clinger information to prove that he
11 was just talking about a poll, someone
12 mentioned that during the conversation.
13 A Apparently so.
14 Q Was that you?
15 A I would sincerely doubt it since I
16 had no communication with Mr. Morris, to my
17 knowledge, after he was relieved of his
18 duties in the campaign which was during the
19 Democratic National Convention which occurred
20 before this phone call.
21 Q Who said that?
22 A I don't know.
416
1 Q Whoever said it, that was based on
2 a conversation with Dick Morris or
3 communication with Dick Morris?
4 A I have no idea.
5 Q Read the next part.
6 A "Our position is that the polling
7 info is not Morris' to produce. It is"
8 Clinton/Gore, "C/G," meaning Clinton/Gore,
9 "material."
10 Q Read the next part.
11 A "LU," referring to Lynn Utrek, "to
12 call M's lawyer."
13 Q Does that mean Morris' lawyer?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Who was Morris' lawyer at the time?
16 A I don't know. My recollection is
17 that he was somebody from I think Pittsburgh,
18 but I don't recall his name.
19 Q What was meant by this? Who said
20 it, No. 1, and what did you take it to mean?
21 A I don't know who said it. I think
22 that there was an issue about who had the
417
1 legal rights to the data and information that
2 had been created in connection with and for
3 the campaign.
4 Q Now, what was the polling data
5 about?
6 A The polling data was polls that had
7 been taken during the course of 1995 and 1996
8 in connection with the Presidential race.
9 Q What was the nature of the data?
10 A Extensive.
11 Q Was the data that was referred to
12 here a poll on whether or not Hillary Clinton
13 was responsible for Filegate?
14 MR. CARY: Objection to form.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Do you know what the American
17 people were thinking about that issue?
18 A I think, I don't recall
19 specifically, Mr. Klayman. I think that this
20 was polling data generally, and Mr. Morris
21 had a lot of polling data. It may be
22 referring to one specific poll. I don't
418
1 know. Or it could be referring to polling
2 data generally.
3 Q If Mr. Morris was going to write an
4 affidavit that would exonerate Mrs. Clinton
5 from the charge that she was the mastermind,
6 why would there be a problem in releasing
7 Clinton/Gore polling data?
8 A Good question.
9 MS. SABRIN: Object as to form.
10 Assumes facts in evidence that there was a
11 problem with releasing it.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: He obviously
13 complimented me that it was a good question.
14 So I want him to be able to answer that
15 question.
16 A I did what to you?
17 Q You complimented me. You said it
18 was a good question.
19 A I complimented you?
20 Q Yes.
21 A Preposterous. Are you going to put
22 that on the record? You will ruin my
419
1 reputation. You don't want to do that.
2 Q You're finished.
3 A I am toast. Anyway, let's go back.
4 Q Answer the question. It was a good
5 question.
6 A It is. What is your question?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Read it back.
8 THE WITNESS: So damn good, I
9 forgot it.
10 (The reporter read the record as
11 requested.)
12 THE WITNESS: I think, Mr. Klayman,
13 that this was a generic discussion, my best
14 recollection is, a generic discussion about
15 Dick and who had the proprietary rights to
16 information that had been created for and in
17 connection with the campaign. There were
18 some of us, myself included, and I think our
19 lawyer, Ms. Utrek and Peter Knight and
20 others, who felt that it was the campaign
21 that had the right to that information. My
22 recollection is that there was some concern
420
1 that the campaign was going to be subpoenaed
2 and didn't have the damn stuff and who had it
3 and where was it and what the campaign had
4 done with it. So they wanted to get it back
5 under the campaign's roof.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q What was in the data that concerned
8 all of you that we're talking about, was
9 there something you wanted to hide?
10 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
12 mischaracterizes.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q That you didn't want out?
15 A No, there's nothing to hide here.
16 Look, virtually everything that happened in
17 the campaign, especially the polling data,
18 got out, was leaked out so fast, it was like
19 a big old gusher over there at the White
20 House. There was no, you know, there was no
21 even conceivable remote attempt to think that
22 we were going to keep stuff secret. I mean,
421
1 you know, you'd have a meeting Wednesday
2 night and by 3:00 o'clock that morning Peter
3 Baker would have it ready to run on the front
4 page of The Washington Post.
5 Q Peter Baker has always had a very
6 close relationship with this White House,
7 hasn't he?
8 A Huh?
9 Q Peter Baker has always had a very
10 close relationship with this White House,
11 hasn't he?
12 A No, I wouldn't say that. I
13 wouldn't say that.
14 Q He's one of the primary ways that
15 the White House has leaked information.
16 Correct?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q Based on your experience.
19 A The White House's a grand gusher.
20 I don't, you know, you don't have to be any
21 high powered reporter to find out what's
22 going on in the White house. You just sort
422
1 of stand out, flip on CNN and it's all there.
2 I mean people -- I'm serious. People in the
3 White House, we used to turn -- I was, I was
4 Deputy Chief of Staff, right? A big shot. I
5 used to turn on old Wolf just to find out
6 what was going on in there.
7 Q It troubled you that people were
8 leaking, didn't it?
9 A Well, I did have some modest
10 problem with that. On the other hand, even
11 the most peripheral student of American
12 history, especially dealing with the White
13 House, comes to understand that White Houses
14 have leaked since George Washington and will
15 leak until, for the rest of the tenure of the
16 Republic. It's the nature of the beast, you
17 know what I mean?
18 Q Yeah. During Watergate Henry
19 Kissinger had a way of dealing with leaks.
20 You remember that?
21 A Yeah, He did a lot wiretapping, I
22 recall.
423
1 Q Right.
2 A Yeah.
3 Q Did anyone ever try to deal with
4 leaks in the Clinton White House?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection as to form.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Was there ever any kind of system
8 put in to try to deal with leakage?
9 A There was leakage. There was
10 constant fussing about it. The fact is it is
11 a fact of life. It's a fact of political
12 life. We all know it. We all fuss about it.
13 There's precious little you can do about it.
14 Q You are aware that the White House
15 has surveillance systems, aren't you?
16 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know what
18 they have. I literally don't know.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You are aware that certain areas of
21 the White House are subject to video
22 surveillance?
424
1 MS. SABRIN: Objection. Assumes
2 facts not in evidence.
3 THE WITNESS: I have seen TV
4 monitors with uniformed Secret Service people
5 sitting in front of them. I don't know where
6 the monitors are. I don't know what areas
7 are monitored. I don't know to the extent
8 that they are monitored.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q When you were working with the
11 White House, did anyone ever advise you what
12 you could say in certain areas and what you
13 couldn't say in other areas if you didn't
14 want to have it recorded by a surveillance
15 system?
16 A No. How much longer do we have?
17 Q While you were with the White House
18 did anyone ever advise you that there were
19 certain areas where you'd be videoed?
20 A No.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
22 THE WITNESS: I'll answer it again.
425
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Did you ever have the impression
3 while you were working in the White House
4 that there were certain areas that would be
5 subject to video or audio surveillance?
6 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Different question.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Can you answer, please?
10 A The answer, I didn't give any
11 thought about it.
12 Q Were you ever conscious that your
13 telephone conversations may be recorded?
14 A I just assume everything's recorded
15 in the government. The old FBI is sneaking
16 around on everybody. You know what I mean?
17 If it ain't the FBI, it's the CIA. I just
18 assume that. I don't know that as a fact. I
19 just assume everything's recorded, listened
20 to, jumbled together, slapped in an FBI file.
21 Q We can probably agree on that. You
22 want to stipulate to it?
426
1 A You have done enough to ruin my
2 reputation. You said that I called, said one
3 of your questions was a good question. You
4 know, if I start stipulating with you, do you
5 know what that's going to do to me? I
6 literally am going to have to move out of
7 town, man. I can't do. I got a lease on my
8 house, you know, a child in school.
9 Q You might have to start calling me
10 Larry. I can call you Harold.
11 A Don't, don't push it too far now,
12 Mr. Klayman. There are limits.
13 Q What leads you to believe that
14 everything's recorded?
15 A It's just my own --
16 Q Intuition?
17 A No, my own paranoia.
18 Q Is there something in your past
19 that created that other than --
20 A No, I'm just --
21 Q Common sense?
22 A You just read enough, you know,
427
1 this is tapped, that's tapped, you know, and
2 Dr. Kissinger was tapping people. I mean you
3 just don't know. So let me put it this way:
4 I try to conduct myself as if everything is
5 being tapped.
6 Q You're very careful about what you
7 say.
8 A I wouldn't say that. Now, let me
9 ask you this: Do you think when I said
10 "fucking as blue" --
11 Q Said what?
12 A When I said "fucking as blue" in
13 the White House, do you think I was being
14 careful about what I said?
15 Q I didn't even know you said that.
16 In what context did you say that?
17 MS. SABRIN: It's been the matter
18 of an extensive Senate hearing.
19 A I had to explain to the United
20 States Senate why I said that.
21 Q Let's read the next section.
22 A Just given my state of mind here,
428
1 trying to gauge the remaining reservoir of
2 strength that I have, having been pummelled
3 by you all day with little cercis, how much
4 more time do we have here?
5 Q We estimate about 50 minutes.
6 A 15?
7 Q 50.
8 A Well, that gives me a range. You
9 guys can quibble over it. At some point I'm
10 just going to walk out of here.
11 Q What else do you say in this
12 document?
13 A Okay, let me pick up. "JQ,"
14 referring to presumably Quinn, "feels
15 incredibly strongly that this is bullshit."
16 Boy, he didn't care what he said in the White
17 House, did he. "they are trying to get
18 Clinton/Gore polling data by way of an
19 investigation."
20 Q Who is "they"?
21 A That's a good question. I don't
22 know who "they" was.
429
1 Q Read the next part.
2 A "P," referring to the President,
3 "doesn't want any polling data turned," I
4 think that word is "turned."
5 Q What does "turned" mean?
6 A Probably turned over to people
7 outside of the campaign. I mean campaigns,
8 as you can appreciate, Mr. Klayman, are quite
9 jealous of their polling data and really do
10 protect it. I would agree -- well, I won't
11 say that.
12 Q Read the next part.
13 A "Berman --
14 Q Is that Eric Berman?
15 A I don't know whether it's Eric
16 Berman or Michael Berman. It's one of those
17 two Bermans, I assume.
18 Q Read it.
19 A "Berman used to practice with the -
20 Jerry McDevitt."
21 Q Who is Jerry McDevitt?
22 A I now think that he is the lawyer
430
1 in the Kirkpatrick Lockhart, Pittsburgh law
2 firm that's referred to on that same page
3 that was representing Mr. Morris at the time.
4 Q Read the rest.
5 A "Berman."
6 Q Read the rest on the page.
7 A Oh. "Jerry McDevitt -
8 Kirkpatrick/Lockhart - Pittsburgh, Berman."
9 Q Let's go on to the next page.
10 No. 3, read that.
11 A "Starr subpoena. Morris.
12 Returnable" either Tuesday or Thursday, I
13 think that's a Thursday, "9/12. Documents
14 belong to campaign."
15 Q What was the Starr subpoena about?
16 A I don't know. The only thing that
17 I can do is, and this is speculation, is he
18 maybe had a subpoena out in connection with
19 the FBI file matter that in my recollection
20 he had jurisdiction over by that time.
21 Q Was the White House trying to
22 contact the witness here? Is that what this
431
1 reflects?
2 A Not that I know of, no.
3 Q The White House was tracking who
4 was being subpoenaed by Ken Starr in the
5 Filegate matter?
6 A I think the White House was
7 probably pretty interested in who was being
8 subpoenaed. Whether they were tracking, I
9 don't know what the word "tracking" means.
10 Q Did you ever see a Starr subpoena
11 in and around this time period concerning
12 Filegate?
13 A Oh, man, I saw so many Starr
14 subpoenas I thought I was looking at the
15 constellation. The answer to your question,
16 there were a number of Starr subpoenas that I
17 saw, virtually I think all of them issued on
18 the White House. I couldn't tell you, you
19 know, once he was appointed he --
20 Q Did you participate in responding
21 to any of those subpoenas?
22 A I participated when requested by
432
1 Ms. Sherburne. Typically, as I recall, the
2 Starr subpoenas were issued on the White
3 House and she would then send a memo around
4 to White House staff indicating that a
5 subpoena had been served, the nature of the
6 subpoena, the documents and other information
7 called for by the subpoena and asking people
8 to search their files and deliver them to her
9 people.
10 Q You know Bruce Lindsey, right?
11 A I do.
12 Q What's his position at the White
13 House?
14 A At what period of time?
15 Q At this period of time.
16 A September of --
17 Q '96.
18 A '96, he was -- I don't know, either
19 Associate or Assistant White House Counsel.
20 I don't know what the -- but he was in the
21 White House Counsel's office at a relatively
22 high level.
433
1 Q It's your understanding that he's
2 the person who controls document production
3 at the White House in and around this time
4 period. Correct?
5 MS. SABRIN: Objection, assumes
6 facts not in evidence.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, no
8 foundation.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond. He was in charge
11 of producing documents that had been
12 subpoenaed in and around --
13 A Who, Bruce was?
14 Q Yes.
15 A I don't know where you got your
16 information. That certainly was not what my
17 understanding was.
18 Q You are aware that he participated
19 in document production with regard to
20 subpoenas from Starr, Congress and some
21 others?
22 A He was a member of the White House
434
1 Counsel's office. I think it's fair to say
2 that the White House Counsel's office was
3 involved in document production. As I've
4 said earlier, a woman by the name of, a
5 lawyer by the name of Wendy White had been
6 brought into the White House to work
7 specifically on document production. There
8 was a huge amount of documents that were
9 being subpoenaed on a consistent basis, it
10 seemed to me at least, and it wouldn't
11 surprise me whether Bruce was involved in
12 that. But my understanding was that
13 primarily it was Ms. Sherburne and her people
14 who were most deeply involved in document
15 production.
16 Q Let's read the rest of this page.
17 Pick it up where you left off.
18 A "Dick could return the material to
19 the campaign. Could be held in contempt.
20 Also would undercut DM's argument that he can
21 use this material for his book because it's
22 his material." Do you want me to go on?
435
1 Q Continue.
2 A "DM's wife told J" --
3 Q Who is J?
4 A Good question. I don't know. --
5 "on Sunday - phone call to JQ," meaning Jack
6 Quinn presumably "-- said if DM had anything
7 it would only be" -- it trails off. Oh, I'm
8 sorry. "Agendas from meeting." That's a
9 colon. "Agendas from meetings, polling data.
10 LU will tell McDevitt to tell Morris not to
11 turn any data over to the campaign." I think
12 that must be a mistake, but "will try to
13 persuade MC," presumably meaning McDevitt,
14 "to persuade DM," meaning Morris, "to give
15 documents back to campaign." So I think the
16 first part of that is an error.
17 Q Basically, what's the concern here
18 is that Morris was going to turn these
19 documents over to Ken Starr. Correct?
20 A I think the basic concern, as I
21 recall it, was who had the proprietary rights
22 to the information. I think it's also fair
436
1 to say that there was little confidence in
2 the White House that anything that was given
3 to Mr. Starr would not be immediately leaked.
4 We were not particularly amused to think of
5 polling data being leaked by Mr. Starr to the
6 world at large in the middle of a campaign as
7 it was drawing to its close. So I think that
8 those were the two primary concerns.
9 Q I call your attention to Bates
10 No. 0176 and 0177.
11 A Wait just a moment.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that that be
13 marked as Exhibit 12.
14 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 12
15 was marked for identification.)
16 A The numbers again, Mr. Klayman?
17 Q 0176-0177.
18 A That's a document that begins at
19 the top "Memorandum for Terry Good, director
20 of Records Management"?
21 Q Yes.
22 A Okay, I got it.
437
1 Q This is a document which you
2 produced as well. Correct?
3 A Yeah, this came out of this --
4 Q Have you seen this document before?
5 A I have no recollection of seeing it
6 before.
7 Q What does it relate to?
8 A I think it speaks for itself. I
9 didn't write it. I don't think I've seen it
10 before. So you're as good a judge of what it
11 relates to as I am.
12 Q Turn to the second page.
13 A Okay.
14 Q "Tom Taggart, Jr.," am I reading
15 that correctly at the bottom, "12/27/95"?
16 A I'm not a handwriting expert.
17 Q Do you know Tom Taggart?
18 A I don't. It doesn't ring a bell
19 with me.
20 Q Can you read the handwriting?
21 A Not particularly. Why don't you
22 give it a shot.
438
1 Q Have you ever read this before?
2 A Asked and answered.
3 Q I'm going to show you just for
4 purposes of identification the stack of
5 documents that you produced here today.
6 A Isn't that the stack that your
7 assistant brought over here?
8 Q Yes, it is.
9 A Okay.
10 Q I just want to confirm on the
11 record, your counsel can do it if it's
12 appropriate, that what you produced are
13 documents numbered JW 0001 through and
14 including JW 452.
15 MS. SABRIN: I will, as I said in
16 the letter to you that came with the
17 documents, that is the breadth of the
18 numbering system. There are a small number
19 of documents within those numbers for which
20 the White House has informed us that it has
21 asserted privilege because, and they are
22 identical, excuse me, they are identical to
439
1 the documents already identified on the
2 privilege log submitted to you by the White
3 House. We've advised you of what those
4 document numbers are within that Bates range
5 that you just mentioned. So with those few
6 exceptions, those numbers are correct, yes.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Are there any
8 documents that Mr. Ickes withheld in his
9 personal capacity under claim of privilege?
10 MS. SABRIN: No.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: In terms of the
12 totality of plaintiffs' subpoena and the
13 response?
14 MS. SABRIN: In terms of the
15 totality, I will say that, again, we objected
16 to certain of your requests and we're not
17 producing any documents responsive to that
18 and we've reserved our right, should you move
19 to compel and we lose that battle if we
20 discover privileged documents in those groups
21 to claim privilege and, again, we are
22 producing these documents voluntarily because
440
1 Mr. Ickes was not properly served. But today
2 we are not asserting any personal claims of
3 privilege.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Let's look at the document JW 001,
6 Mr. Ickes. Certain things are underlined in
7 that document.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Is that your underlining?
10 A It certainly appears to be.
11 Q Now, is it your practice to
12 underline things when you read press reports
13 that you consider to be important?
14 A Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't.
15 It depends how much of a hurry I'm in.
16 Q You wouldn't underline anything
17 that wasn't important though, would you?
18 A What?
19 Q You don't underline things that
20 aren't important, do you?
21 A Well, sometimes I do. I think it
22 depends upon what you call important. You
441
1 and I may disagree on that.
2 Q What's your modus operandi for
3 underlying things, if you want to highlight
4 it so you can get back to it because you
5 consider it to be important?
6 A It varies. It depends. Sometimes
7 I highlight it because I want to find it
8 again, and sometimes I just do it out of
9 habit, you know, just draw lines as you're
10 reading. But I think it's fair to say that
11 the things that I underline I consider either
12 important or of interest. They don't
13 necessarily coincide.
14 Q Now, these documents, particularly
15 with regard to the press clips, they were
16 kept and maintained at the time in and around
17 the press clip date? In other words if you
18 have a press clip that says Sunday
19 July 14th, 1996, in all likelihood this
20 document would have come into your possession
21 around that time period?
22 A Yes. I am a notorious reader of
442
1 back newspapers because in my view the news
2 is not news until I've read it.
3 Q Is there anybody at the White House
4 who used to clip newspapers for you?
5 A No, I clipped all my own
6 newspapers.
7 Q What kind of newspapers did you
8 review each day?
9 A Well, I could give you a smart ass
10 answer, but since it's getting towards the
11 end of the day, I typically read The New York
12 Times, The Washington Post, Wall Street
13 Journal. But in the White House, as you by
14 now probably know, we had news clips that
15 were provided to the senior staff early in
16 the morning. So I would typically read the
17 news clips and leaf through them and
18 sometimes just pull them out. They included
19 a lot of different papers depending upon the
20 news of the day and what was going on. They
21 could include papers, some regional papers
22 and local papers. But typically I looked at
443
1 The Washington Post, New York Times, Wall
2 Street Journal. But sometimes I read them a
3 week late.
4 Q You kept things that you considered
5 to be important that you'd need perhaps later
6 to have.
7 A I kept things that I thought I
8 might want to refer back to.
9 Q Turn to document No. 0018.
10 A 0018?
11 Q Yes.
12 A Hang on.
13 Q See that document?
14 A Just bear with me. You're a lot
15 faster than I am. Oh, the loop. Yes. The
16 gossip sheet.
17 Q See where it says "Stephanopoulos,"
18 you underlined that, "who has worked with
19 Livingstone since Clinton's Presidential
20 campaign, gives him high marks. He does a
21 terrific job"?
22 A Underline, you mean there's a
444
1 bracket by it.
2 Q Yeah.
3 MS. SABRIN: Excuse me,
4 Mr. Klayman. I think you said 0108.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I said 0018.
6 MS. SABRIN: Oh, he's looking at
7 the wrong document.
8 A Oh, 0018. Yes, I see that.
9 Q Do you see where you bracketed
10 that?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You bracketed that because you
13 considered this to be important. Correct?
14 A Either important or amusing.
15 Q Now, you did have information that
16 Stephanopoulos --
17 A It struck me that George was given
18 to hyperbole.
19 Q What struck you about that as
20 giving George to hyperbole?
21 A Oh, I don't know. Sometimes George
22 gets carried away with himself. In any
445
1 event --
2 Q Did you have any information that
3 Stephanopoulos had worked with Livingstone
4 such that he could give him high marks for
5 his job?
6 A I don't know what George's
7 relationship with Mr. Livingstone was.
8 Q But it concerned you that
9 Stephanopoulos was being quoted as having
10 given Livingstone high marks. Correct?
11 A It either concerned me or amused
12 me, I don't know which. Probably the latter.
13 Q This was in and around
14 May 22nd, 1994. Correct?
15 A Wait a minute. Yes. That's the
16 date on the piece of paper.
17 Q Before the scandal broke.
18 A Yes.
19 Q You were concerned in and around
20 May 22nd, 1994 that Stephanopoulos reportedly
21 had given Livingstone high marks.
22 A I was either concerned or amused
446
1 but as I've testified twice, probably the
2 latter; amused, not concerned.
3 Q The reason you were concerned about
4 this, or amused, is because you knew Filegate
5 was on the horizon. Right?
6 MS. SABRIN: Objection, assumes
7 facts not in evidence.
8 THE WITNESS: Right, I had no idea
9 where Filegate was at that point. It may
10 have been on the horizon, it may not. This
11 happened '94, '95, we're up
12 to '95, '96, '97, '98. This happened almost
13 to the day, in fact, tomorrow will be to the
14 day, four years ago. Now if you think that I
15 can remember what I was thinking and feeling
16 four years ago -- but you know, I'm just
17 thinking about this. Livingstone, wasn't he
18 the guy that was carrying, allegedly carrying
19 out boxes in connection with Vince Foster,
20 too? For some reason I think that. I don't
21 know why.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
447
1 Q Would you turn to document 0043.
2 A 0043, okay.
3 Q The Star piece, "My White House
4 Love Diaries"?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Why did you clip this article?
7 A I typically clipped articles that I
8 thought would be the source of discussion.
9 It was clear to me that this might possibly
10 be the source of discussion, so I clipped it.
11 Q Turn to document 0050.
12 A 50, okay.
13 Q Do you see the top page, it says,
14 "Brooke's Diner Diet lose 30 pounds in four
15 weeks"?
16 A Yeah, I was really interested in
17 that. Actually I wanted to find out what
18 diet she was on.
19 MS. SABRIN: Concerned about your
20 weight, Harold?
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm pretty
22 sure that was one of the reasons I clipped
448
1 this particular article.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q What's the notation Karen Harcox on
4 there?
5 A What page are you looking at?
6 Q That page, 0050.
7 A Oh, Karen Hancocks. That's not my
8 handwriting.
9 Q Who is Karen Hancocks?
10 A Karen Hancocks at that time was the
11 Deputy Political Director who reported to
12 Doug Soznik in the White House.
13 Q Whose handwriting is that?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q Why was her name written down here?
16 A You'd have to ask the person who
17 wrote it.
18 Q The reason you clipped it was not
19 because of Brooke Shields but because of the
20 White House call girl scandal. Right?
21 A You really know how to zero in on
22 the issue. I got to hand it to you,
449
1 Mr. Klayman. You don't cut anybody any
2 slack.
3 MS. SABRIN: Or did you think it
4 was a prime example of excellent journalism?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, that, you know,
6 the Pulitzer was always --
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Turn to Page 0059.
9 A Wait a minute. 0059?
10 Q Yeah.
11 A Wait a minute. I'm there.
12 Q "Morris versus Clinton."
13 A Yes.
14 Q Is that your handwriting on the
15 left?
16 A It is not.
17 Q Do you know whose it is?
18 A No.
19 MS. SABRIN: Are we making these
20 exhibits, Mr. Klayman, the ones that you are
21 asking questions about?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I identified
450
1 them. I mean I don't think it's necessary.
2 They are identified.
3 MS. SABRIN: Then I want to state
4 for the record, we're assuming that these,
5 and I have no reason to believe that they're
6 not, but I just want to make clear that we're
7 assuming that these are accurate copies of
8 the documents we produced.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: To the best of my
10 knowledge.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Can you turn to document 0137. Do
13 you know whose handwriting is on the left?
14 A Just a moment. Let me get there
15 first. 37?
16 Q 0137.
17 A Yes. It says "Harold Ickes from
18 Jane Sherburne." The only thing I would
19 conclude from that is that it is from
20 Ms. Sherburne. But it could have been
21 somebody working for Jane that wrote that, I
22 don't know.