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_____________________________________ CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, et al., Defendants. _____________________________________ |
) ) ) ) ) ) Civil No. 96-2123/97-1288 (RCL) ) ) ) ) ) |
12 Deposition of
13 LANNY J. DAVIS
14 a witness, called for examination by counsel
15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and
16 agreement of counsel, beginning at
17 approximately 10:11 a.m. at the offices of
18 Judicial Watch, 501 School Street S.W.,
19 Washington, D.C., before Michelle M. Howell,
20 notary public in and for the District of
21 Columbia, when were present on behalf of the
22 respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE
4 Judicial Watch
501 School Street S.W., Suite 725
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
(202) 646-5172
6
On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of
7 Investigation and the Executive
Office of the President:
8
ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
9 Federal Programs Branch
Civil Division
10 United States Department of Justice
901 E Street N.W.
11 P.O. Box 883
Washington, D.C. 20044
12
On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton:
13
PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE
14 Williams & Connolly
725 12th Street N.W.
15 Washington, D.C. 20005
(202) 434-5083
16
On behalf of Executive Office of the President:
17
SALLY PAXTON, ESQUIRE
18 Special Associate Counsel to the President
The White House
19 Washington, D.C. 20500
(202) 456-5079
20
21
22
3
1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D.):
2 On behalf of the witness:
3 TIMOTHY MILLS, ESQUIRE
Patton Boggs, LLP
4 2550 M Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20037
5 (202) 457-6000
6 ALSO PRESENT:
7 Sylvanus Holley, Video Technician
8 C O N T E N T S
9 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
10 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5
11 DAVIS DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
12 No. 1 - November 21, 1996 Press 67
Secretary Statement
13
No. 2 - Davis Subpoena 82
14
No. 3 - Notice of Deposition Duces Tecum 83
15
No. 4 - February 8, 1998 Transcript, 303
16 "Weekly Roundtable"
17 No. 5 - January 24, 1996 Fax, 328
Caputo to Carville
18
No. 6 - National Review Article, 423
19 "Obstruct Art"
20 No. 7 - September 6, 1996 Sherburne Memo 439
21
22 * * * * *
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This
3 is the video deposition of Lanny J. Davis,
4 taken by the counsel for the plaintiff in the
5 matter of Cara Leslie Alexander et al. v.
6 Federal Bureau of Investigation et al., case
7 number 96-2123, held in the office of
8 Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, S.W.,
9 Washington, D.C., on this date,
10 July 30, 1998, and at the time indicated on
11 the video screen, which is 10:11 a.m.
12 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I am
13 the videographer. The court reporter today
14 is Michele Howell from the firm of Beta
15 Reporting.
16 Will counsel now introduce
17 themselves?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: My name is Larry
19 Klayman. I'm chairman general counsel of
20 Judicial Watch.
21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, president,
22 Judicial Watch.
5
1 MR. MILLS: Timothy Mills, Patton
2 Boggs, LLP, representing Lanny J. Davis.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro on
4 behalf of EOP.
5 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton with the
6 White House.
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney,
8 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First
9 Lady.
10 Whereupon,
11 LANNY J. DAVIS
12 was called as a witness and, having been
13 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
14 as follows:
15 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Please state your name.
18 A Lanny, J. Davis.
19 Q When were you born, Mr. Davis?
20 A December 12, 1945.
21 Q Where were you born?
22 A Jersey City, New Jersey.
6
1 Q Run me through briefly your
2 educational background from high school to
3 postgraduate studies.
4 A High school, Newark Academy;
5 college, Yale; law school, Yale, LL.B.
6 Q What did you do, if anything, upon
7 graduating from Yale Law School,
8 professionally speaking?
9 A Do you want every job since law
10 school?
11 Q Yes.
12 A I worked for as a speechwriter for
13 then-Congressman Daddario (phonetic) of
14 Connecticut, of Hartford, Connecticut, who
15 was a candidate for Governor between June and
16 December of 1970. Then I worked for Senator
17 Edmund S. Muskie in his presidential campaign
18 here in Washington 1970-'72.
19 I was an associate attorney at the
20 law firm of Arnold & Porter between 1972
21 and '75. I have been at the firm of Patton
22 Boggs in Washington, D.C. since 1975.
7
1 Q Are you a partner at Patton and
2 Boggs?
3 A I am.
4 Q Did there come a point in time when
5 you ever run for political office or
6 considered running for political office?
7 A Yes.
8 Q When was that?
9 A In 1974 and then 1976.
10 Q Where had you decided to run for
11 political office?
12 A In the Eighth Congressional
13 District of Maryland.
14 Q Did you ultimately run?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q As a Congressman?
17 A I ran for Congressman.
18 Q You were not successful?
19 A Not successful.
20 Q You ran as a Democratic candidate?
21 A As a Democratic candidate.
22 Q During the course of your practice
8
1 at Patton Boggs, what is your specialty, if
2 any?
3 A Litigation.
4 Q Is there a type of litigations that
5 you specialize in more than others?
6 A No, not really.
7 Q Have you been in the litigation
8 department of Patton Boggs?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
10 facts not in evidence. No foundation.
11 THE WITNESS: We do not --
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Is there a litigation department at
14 Patton Boggs?
15 A Not formally. There is an informal
16 litigation group, and I am a member of that.
17 Q Who else is a member of that
18 litigation group, currently?
19 A It is not clear who are members.
20 People come in and come out. But I would say
21 approximately 20 or 30 of the partners
22 informally participate in the litigation
9
1 group.
2 Q Is your expertise district court
3 litigation?
4 A What do you mean by district court?
5 Federal district court?
6 Q Federal district court.
7 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous
8 with respect to the term expertise.
9 THE WITNESS: My activity has been
10 primarily in the federal courts, but not
11 necessarily the district court level.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Is your expertise more in civil
14 than criminal?
15 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
16 THE WITNESS: Mostly civil.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Or vice versa or the same?
19 A Mostly civil.
20 Q Did there come a point in time when
21 you took a leave of absence from Patton,
22 Boggs and Blow to become a member of the
10
1 White House staff?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
3 facts not in evidence, leave of absence.
4 THE WITNESS: No, that is not
5 correct.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you leave Patton Boggs to take
8 a job at the White House at some point?
9 A Yes.
10 Q When was that?
11 A In December of 1996.
12 Q You said you didn't take a leave of
13 absence. What, just generally speaking, were
14 the terms of your leaving Patton Boggs to
15 join the White House?
16 A I withdrew completely from the
17 partnership.
18 Q I don't mean to repeat things.
19 Just for purposes of clarity, it was December
20 of 1996?
21 A Exactly. It was December 9, 1996.
22 Q How is it that you came to leave
11
1 Patton Boggs and take a job at the White
2 House? What was the reason for doing that?
3 A I was given an offer by Mr. Quinn,
4 the then-White House counsel, and I accepted
5 the offer.
6 Q Up to December 9, 1996, had you
7 ever met President Bill Clinton?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When was the first time that you
10 met him?
11 A I can't recall specifically.
12 Q Just generally?
13 A It was probably in the fall
14 of 1970.
15 Q Under what circumstances did you
16 meet him?
17 A I believe it was in the context of
18 a political campaign then going on in
19 Connecticut, where I was living.
20 Q Which political campaign was that?
21 A I believe it was the Joe Duffy for
22 Senate campaign.
12
1 Q How was President Bill Clinton
2 involved in that campaign, if at all?
3 A I believe he was a volunteer in
4 that campaign.
5 Q You got to know him quite well?
6 A No, not quite well at all. Very --
7 Q How did get to know him?
8 A I think I was introduced to him
9 once or twice.
10 Q Did you have occasion to work with
11 him on that campaign?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q Other than that campaign, did you
14 have contact with him in later years, up to
15 the point of your taking the job in the White
16 House on December 9, 1996?
17 A Very infrequently.
18 Q Can you describe that generally for
19 us?
20 A I was a member of the Democratic
21 National Committee beginning in 1978. I
22 remember meeting him when he was Governor at
13
1 several Democratic National Committee
2 meetings.
3 Q What did you do for the DNC, as a
4 member, at that time?
5 A I don't know what you mean by what
6 did I do?
7 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q What was your role?
10 A My role? I was a member of the
11 full committee. I was a member at one point
12 of the executive committee. I was the
13 chairman of -- and an officer of the eastern
14 region caucus of the candidacy.
15 Q In all of those capacities, what
16 were your duties and responsibilities,
17 generally speaking?
18 A I didn't have really duties and
19 responsibilities. People who are on the DNC
20 are members who attend meetings.
21 I also served on the rules
22 committee, so I suppose I had a
14
1 responsibility to attend meetings and vote on
2 various rules pertaining to the 1988
3 convention.
4 But as a member, I was just a
5 participant. No real duties and
6 responsibilities.
7 Q How is it you that you came to
8 obtain those positions at the DNC?
9 A I was elected to serve as chairman
10 of the eastern region caucus and, therefore,
11 automatically a member of the executive
12 committee. I was appointed to be on the
13 rules committee by the then chairman.
14 Q When you say eastern district, you
15 mean eastern district of Maryland?
16 A If I said district I misspoke. The
17 eastern region caucus of the DNC encompasses
18 all of the states from Maine to, I think,
19 about Virginia.
20 Q Did you have to run to get elected
21 to that position?
22 A Yes.
15
1 Q So during your time at the DNC,
2 this began in 1978, what did it go up to in
3 terms of your duration of service?
4 A To 1992. Excuse me, 19 -- may I
5 correct the record? I was first elected to
6 the DNC in 1980. My last term ended in 1992.
7 So it was 1980 to 1992, not 1978.
8 Q During that period, were there any
9 other positions that you held for the DNC
10 that you haven't mentioned?
11 A To the best of my recollection, no.
12 Q It was during that period that you
13 got to work with Bill Clinton?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
15 facts not in evidence.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q I believe he just testified to it.
18 A I did not get to work with Bill
19 Clinton.
20 Q In what capacity did you come into
21 contact with him at the DNC?
22 A I believe attending a couple of
16
1 meetings. I shook his hand and said hello to
2 him, and that was it. I think I spoke to him
3 once or twice on social occasions,
4 receptions, that sort of thing.
5 Q Up to the present, were there other
6 occasions where you had contact with Bill
7 Clinton, up to the point of your White House
8 position?
9 A Up to the point of my White House
10 position, yes.
11 Q When was that?
12 A At various times during the
13 campaign of 1992, during 1991 and, in
14 particular, I had occasion to see him, talk
15 to him, shake his hand, speak to him on the
16 telephone.
17 Q Did you work with him or any of his
18 staff on any matters involving his election
19 campaign?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What were your duties and
22 responsibilities?
17
1 A I was a volunteer working on the
2 super delegates, of which I was one, as a
3 member of the DNC, meaning automatically
4 entitled to vote as a party or elected
5 official.
6 So I was a volunteer trying to
7 secure the support of other super delegates
8 at the '92 Democratic national convention.
9 Q During this time period leading up
10 to 1992, have you ever had occasion to meet
11 with Mrs. Hillary Clinton?
12 A During what time period?
13 Q The period leading up to 1992, when
14 you became a volunteer on behalf of the
15 Clinton campaign?
16 A Prior to '92?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Yes.
19 Q When did you first meet
20 Mrs. Clinton?
21 A What year?
22 Q Yes.
18
1 A I believe it would have been in the
2 fall of 1969.
3 Q How did you come to meet her?
4 A At law school.
5 Q Was she in law school at that time
6 along with you?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you meet Bill Clinton in law
9 school as well?
10 A No, I did not.
11 Q Did you get to know Mrs. Clinton in
12 law school?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you become a friend?
15 A I believed we were friends, yes.
16 Q Other than law school, have you had
17 contact with her since that time, up to 1992?
18 A Again, very infrequently. Same
19 answer as with then-Governor Clinton, I
20 believe. There were social occasions through
21 the Democratic National Committee where I had
22 occasion to say hello to her and shake her
19
1 hand.
2 Q During the time that you were in
3 law school at Yale, did you ever meet a
4 Steven Cohen?
5 A I believe the answer to that is
6 yes, but I am not sure, because there are
7 several Steven Cohens who seem to confuse me
8 as to if it was the same Steven Cohen that I
9 knew back then.
10 Q I am talking about the Steven Cohen
11 who is now professor at Georgetown?
12 A I am not sure if that is the same
13 Steven Cohen.
14 Q In the last six years, have you had
15 contact with a Steven Cohen?
16 A No.
17 Q Professor at Georgetown?
18 A No.
19 Q Are you aware of Steven Cohen,
20 professor at Georgetown, having contact with
21 others in the administration, the Clinton
22 administration?
20
1 A No, I am not.
2 Q Are you aware that Harold Ickes has
3 testified in this case that he had dinner
4 with Steven Cohen and discussed Linda Tripp?
5 A No.
6 Q But you do remember Steven Cohen at
7 Yale?
8 A I remember the name Steven Cohen,
9 quite frankly, but I am not sure it is
10 through the Yale connection. But I do
11 remember Steven Cohen while I was at Yale Law
12 School. But I don't think it was through
13 Yale Law School; it was through a political
14 campaign.
15 Q During the time you were at Yale,
16 did you participate in any political
17 activities with Hillary Clinton, any clubs
18 with her or anything like that?
19 A What is your question, "clubs"?
20 Q Anything. I am just trying to give
21 you a foundation to give me the background
22 information.
21
1 A I don't know what you mean by
2 "political activities." I believe she was
3 active in the Joe Duffy campaign during that
4 time period.
5 Q You were as well?
6 A I was active in the Joe Duffy
7 campaign, yes. But that was not my paid job.
8 I was a speechwriter for a gubernatorial
9 candidate, but I was working also for the Joe
10 Duffy campaign.
11 Q What contact, if any, did you have
12 with Mrs. Clinton after you graduated from
13 law school after 1992?
14 A The same answer that -- the same
15 question that you asked that had the same
16 answer.
17 Q Did you have any contact with her
18 in terms of attending parties where she was
19 present, or did you have contact in working
20 on political campaigns? That is what I am
21 looking for.
22 A I am happy to repeat what I
22
1 previously answered one more time.
2 I had infrequent contact. I can't
3 remember specifically, but as with
4 then-Governor Clinton, I believe it was as a
5 member of the DNC, at social functions or
6 meetings. Infrequently, I remember seeing
7 her and the Governor and saying hello to both
8 of them.
9 Q Did you work with her on any
10 matters, political or otherwise?
11 A When?
12 Q Up to 1992.
13 A No.
14 Q In 1992, when you were a volunteer,
15 did you work with the President or First Lady
16 up to the point of their election in November
17 of that year?
18 A I worked for the President as a
19 volunteer. I wouldn't say I worked with him,
20 then-Governor.
21 Q Who was it that you worked most
22 with during the 1992 campaigns?
23
1 A Her name is Nancy McFadden. She
2 was a paid employee in the Washington
3 campaign headquarters, and I was assigned to
4 work with her on the super delegate efforts.
5 Q Where is she located today?
6 A I think she is at the Department of
7 Transportation.
8 Q During the 1992 campaign, or
9 before, did you ever come to know James
10 Carville?
11 A No.
12 Q You didn't get to know him even
13 during 1992?
14 A No.
15 Q Did there come a later point in
16 time when you became acquainted with James
17 Carville?
18 A I think I have shaken his hand
19 maybe two or three times and said hello and
20 exchanged a couple of sentences with him two
21 or three times. I think I spoke to him once
22 or twice while I was at the White House, and
24
1 that is it.
2 Q While you were at the White House,
3 under what circumstances did you speak with
4 him once or twice?
5 A I think he called me to ask me a
6 couple of questions and I gave him --
7 regarding some press reports, and I gave him
8 some answers.
9 Q What was the subject matter of
10 those press reports?
11 A I can't remember. Something to do
12 with campaign finance.
13 Q Did it have anything to do with
14 Filegate or government files?
15 A No.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous,
17 the term Filegate.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Do you know what I mean by
20 Filegate, Mr. Davis?
21 A I am not sure, tell me what you
22 mean.
25
1 Q What do you understand Filegate to
2 mean? You define it.
3 A I think it has been used to
4 reference the obtaining of FBI files by the
5 White House at some point in 1996. Is that
6 what you mean by it?
7 Q Well, let's take for purposes of
8 this deposition that when I talk about
9 Filegate, it would be either the obtaining of
10 FBI files by the White House between 1993
11 and 1996, or the use of government files
12 generally with regard to gathering
13 information on individuals?
14 A All right.
15 MR. MILLS: I am going to object to
16 that as ambiguous. If you have questions,
17 specific questions that you wanted to ask
18 about the subject matter of obtaining or
19 using government files, please ask those
20 questions specifically so that the witness
21 will understand them.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we will try to
26
1 be as specific as possible, Mr. Mills, if you
2 would like to do any cross-examine at the end
3 of my direct.
4 MR. MILLS: I assert my right to
5 object on each question.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. That is fine.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q In 1992, when you worked on the
9 campaign, did you have any expectation of
10 being rewarded in any way?
11 A No.
12 Q Were you rewarded in any way after
13 that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How was that?
16 A He was elected.
17 Q That was just a psychological
18 reward.
19 A It was a very strong personal
20 reward. I was happy that he was elected.
21 Q Did the fact that you worked on
22 the 1992 campaign, in your opinion,
27
1 contribute to your ability to get a job at
2 the White House?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection. Requesting
4 opinion evidence. This is a fact witness.
5 His opinions are irrelevant to the subject of
6 your inquiry.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Mills, I have no
8 objection to legitimate objection. I don't
9 think this is a trick question. We would
10 like to move it along with Mr. Davis. We are
11 not here in any way to make anything
12 difficult. We just want to get the
13 information.
14 MR. MILLS: That is fine. You can
15 ask questions allowed by the rules and by the
16 court's order, and I will put my
17 objections --
18 MR. KLAYMAN: The fact is,
19 witnesses are allowed to give opinions under
20 the rules of evidence.
21 MR. MILLS: This is not an expert
22 witness, this is a fact witness. If you want
28
1 to ask him about facts, ask him about facts.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Federal rules provide
3 it even with fact witnesses.
4 MR. MILLS: There will be
5 objections made as to any requests for
6 opinions.
7 THE WITNESS: What is the question?
8 Would you repeat the question? I forgot.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did your having worked on the 1992
11 campaign help you get a job at the White
12 House when you left Patton Boggs?
13 A I have no idea if that was part of
14 the motivation.
15 Q How did you get that job?
16 A Circumstances.
17 Q Were you recommended for it?
18 A I don't know whether I was
19 recommended for it.
20 Q What was the job that you took at
21 the White House?
22 A Special counsel to the President.
29
1 Q Did there come a point in time when
2 someone explained to you what the duties and
3 responsibilities of special counsel to the
4 President would be?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When was that?
7 A Excuse me. It would be late
8 November 1996, mid- to late November 1996.
9 Q How is it that you learned that
10 that job was open?
11 A I didn't learn it was open
12 specifically.
13 Q Did someone contact you?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Who?
16 A Mr. Quinn.
17 Q What did he say to you at the time?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. He is not
19 going to testify as to his conversation with
20 Mr. Quinn, except if he wants to testify as
21 to whether it was about the obtaining or
22 misuse of government files.
30
1 MR. KLAYMAN: To discuss what his
2 duties and responsibilities were?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: That's right. The
4 Court has already ruled on that question that
5 it wasn't relevant. You asked the same
6 question with respect to Mr. Begala and how
7 he obtained his job.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: It is a different
9 circumstance. He wasn't with the government
10 at the time. That was with regard to
11 presidential communication.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: It is also a
13 presidential communication.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: You claimed executive
15 privilege on -- not that it was sustained --
16 it was another basis that the Court made its
17 ruling.
18 I am just trying to get background
19 information. That is a bizarre objection.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think it is a
21 bizarre objection.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not allowed to
31
1 find out what you have been told as to what
2 this witness's duties and responsibilities
3 are?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: He can described what
5 his duties and responsibilities were, but he
6 is not going to tell you specifically his
7 conversation with Jack Quinn.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked a specific
9 question about duties and responsibility.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: My recollection of
11 the question was what the discussion was.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q What were you told by Jack Quinn in
14 terms of what your duties and
15 responsibilities would be?
16 MR. MILLS: There is an outstanding
17 objection on the table, and I believe there
18 is an instruction to the witness not to
19 answer with respect to privilege. That was
20 precisely to the question that you just
21 asked, Mr. Klayman. You have asked that
22 question twice now. It has been objected to
32
1 twice now.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: He can answer the
3 question with respect to duties and
4 responsibilities.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I will ask that this
6 be certified. We will undoubtedly going to
7 have to go down to the Court at some point
8 today. We will make a list of these various
9 questions, so I don't have to bother the
10 judge over and over again.
11 THE WITNESS: What is the question?
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q What were your duties and
14 responsibilities?
15 A As special counsel to the
16 President?
17 Q Yes.
18 A I was primarily responsible to deal
19 with the White House press corps on certain
20 issues. And by dealing with the press corps,
21 that meant answering their inquiries,
22 providing them factual information to the
33
1 best extent that I could, and to assist them
2 in doing their jobs.
3 Q Had you had any prior experience in
4 dealing with the press before you were
5 offered this position at the White House?
6 A Not as an employee, and not
7 officially, no.
8 Q But how about unofficially?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What experience had you had?
11 A In long years in politics, I had
12 come to know and understand and work with
13 members of the press corps who covered
14 national politics and local Maryland
15 politics.
16 Q Were you recommended for this
17 position at the White House by anyone?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q Did you fill out a formal
20 application?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q Did you submit any letters with
34
1 regard to your application, oral application?
2 A No, not with respect to an
3 application.
4 Q Was there any correspondence
5 exchanged between you and the White House
6 with regard to this position?
7 A I don't believe so.
8 Q Do you have a file that you kept in
9 terms of your trying to obtain, and
10 ultimately obtaining, this position in the
11 White House counsel's office?
12 A No.
13 Q Did you go through any kind of
14 interview process for this job?
15 A I don't know what you mean by
16 "interview."
17 Q Did you actually go over to the
18 White House and interview with Mr. Quinn?
19 A I had a meeting with and discussion
20 with Mr. Quinn before I accepted the job,
21 yes.
22 Q Was anyone else present at that
35
1 meeting?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Who was present?
4 A Bruce Lindsey, Cheryl Mills.
5 Q Anyone else?
6 A Excuse me, not Cheryl Mills. What
7 is her name? Kathy Wallman.
8 Q Who is Kathy Wallman?
9 A I believe then she was deputy White
10 House counsel.
11 Q Anyone else present?
12 A I don't believe so.
13 Q Was there more than one meeting?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Where did the other meetings taking
16 place?
17 A Mr. Quinn's office and
18 Ms. Wallman's office.
19 Q Did the individuals present, did
20 they vary in any way from one meeting to the
21 next?
22 A Yes. The only meeting that
36
1 Mr. Lindsey was at was the first meeting.
2 Q The others were present at the
3 subsequent meetings?
4 A I met alone with Mr. Quinn and
5 alone with Miss Wallman on a subsequent
6 occasion several days later.
7 Q During any of those meetings, was
8 Filegate discussed?
9 A As you previously defined it?
10 Q Yes.
11 A No.
12 Q During any of those meetings, were
13 the so-called Clinton scandals discussed by
14 subject matter?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 Relevancy.
18 MR. MILLS: Relevancy and
19 ambiguous.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I will narrow it, I
21 am just trying to lay a foundation.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you
37
1 mean by scandals.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Let's cite a few. Campaign finance
4 scandal?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
6 MR. MILLS: Objection.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Do you know what I am referring to?
9 A But I don't understand the word
10 "scandal" after the words "campaign finance."
11 Q Would you rather I use the word
12 "controversy"?
13 A That's okay.
14 Q I'll use the word "controversy." I
15 think Rick Kaplan said and instructed
16 everyone to use "controversy."
17 A I wouldn't know about Mr. Kaplan's
18 direction, but "controversy" is a neutral
19 word, yeah.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I am going to
21 instruct the witness not to disclose the
22 substance of his conversations in terms other
38
1 than what it wasn't about.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q We will use the term "controversy"
4 rather than "scandal"?
5 A Your question was?
6 Q Was the campaign finance
7 controversy discussed?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. I
9 instruct the witness not to answer.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Just subject matter.
11 I'm not asking for the actual discussions.
12 He can respond.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: He can't respond.
14 Wait a minute.
15 THE WITNESS: What is the rule if I
16 want to talk to my counsel off the record?
17 Is there a dead mike rule? How do I do this
18 if I want to consult with counsel --
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I would take a mike
20 off.
21 THE WITNESS: Just take it off?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: You do like Harold
39
1 Ickes and just throw it on the table with an
2 expletive deleted.
3 (Witness conferred with counsel)
4 MS. SHAPIRO: My instruction is the
5 following. I will allow him to testify as to
6 the subject matter, generally, of the entire
7 conversation. I am not going to allow him to
8 answer specifics with about what controversy
9 was or was not discussed, because that is
10 tantamount to revealing the substance of the
11 conversation.
12 So if you can answer the question
13 based on that instruction.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q I don't understand the instruction,
16 but let's try it over again.
17 Did you discuss during any of these
18 meetings the campaign finance controversy?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I object and instruct
20 the witness not to answer the question. As I
21 just explained, he is not to disclose the
22 specific topics of what was discussed. He
40
1 can discuss generally what the subject of the
2 meeting was.
3 THE WITNESS: The general subject
4 of the meeting was the areas that I would be
5 talking to the press corps about as part of
6 my job.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q What were those areas?
9 A Without regard to what was
10 discussed, what was my areas of
11 responsibilities?
12 Q Yes.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer that
14 question.
15 THE WITNESS: Without regard to any
16 discussions, my areas of responsibilities
17 were almost exclusively to talk to the press
18 about and to assist the press in writing
19 stories concerning campaign finance
20 allegations.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Were you also assigned the same
41
1 type of duties and responsibilities with
2 regard to the controversy known as
3 Travelgate?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection. Ambiguous.
5 I don't know what Travelgate is, the use of
6 the term is.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Do you know what Travelgate is?
9 A I am afraid I have the same problem
10 with the word "gate" as I did earlier.
11 Q What do you understand Travelgate
12 to be?
13 A I remember a controversy over the
14 firing of travel office employees, and I
15 think I have seen the expression Travelgate
16 associated with that controversy.
17 Q Let's define it that way. Were
18 your duties and responsibilities related to
19 Travelgate as well in communicating with the
20 press?
21 A They were not.
22 Q Were they related in any way to FBI
42
1 files?
2 A They were not.
3 Q Were they related in any way to
4 Paula Corbin Jones and that controversy?
5 A They were not.
6 Q Were they related in any way to
7 controversy known as Whitewater?
8 A The answer is, they were not.
9 There were times when some of the issues I
10 dealt with related to Whitewater, but my
11 responsibility was primarily in the area of
12 campaign finance issues.
13 Q Were they related to any of the
14 other Clinton controversies?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
16 THE WITNESS: You will have to be
17 more specific. Which ones?
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Related in any way to the
20 activities of Commerce secretary Ron Brown?
21 A Maybe once or twice a few stories
22 relating to Mr. Brown. I had some calls
43
1 about it and I tried to assist reporters
2 about it. But that is very, very rare.
3 Q Related to any way the controversy
4 surrounding the death of Vince Foster?
5 A No.
6 Q Related in any way to the
7 controversy surrounding the White House
8 billing records?
9 A White House billing records?
10 Q You are aware that in the living
11 quarters of the White House, certain
12 documents that had been requested by the
13 independent counsel were found months after
14 they had been requested?
15 A I didn't know they were White House
16 billing records.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Rose law firm billing records?
20 A I had no responsibility for that.
21 Q Let's certify this whole line of
22 questioning. I take it you will instruct the
44
1 witness not to respond, Ms. Shapiro, on any
2 of the Clinton controversies, specifically in
3 terms of discussions with Jack Quinn and
4 others?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: I think you should
6 take it question by question. If there is a
7 way to work around objections, I am always
8 willing to do that.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I that is
10 disingenuous on your part, because I am just
11 trying to speed this along for everybody's
12 benefit.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: I can't possibly
14 anticipate what --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: You are saying if I
16 ask the same question that I asked with
17 Travelgate for any of these other
18 controversies I mentioned, your answer would
19 be different?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: What question would
21 you ask?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
45
1 Q Did you discuss FBI files with Jack
2 Quinn or anybody else during these
3 meetings --
4 MS. SHAPIRO: He will answer
5 questions about FBI files, and he will answer
6 the question about use or misuse of
7 government files generally.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Did you ever discuss with Jack
10 Quinn or anyone else during the meetings
11 leading up to your employment anything
12 dealing with FBI or government files?
13 A Never, not before, not during and
14 not since. With one -- let me kind of modify
15 that.
16 During the time that I was not at
17 the White House, I have had occasion to be on
18 a couple of television shows where the
19 subject of FBI files came up. On those
20 occasions, I did have some discussions on
21 those topics. But not when I went to the
22 White House.
46
1 Q When was it that you left the White
2 House to return to Patton Boggs and Blow?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection. The name of
4 the law firm is Patton Boggs.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Sorry about that.
6 When did it change?
7 MR. MILLS: I don't recall, but it
8 was before Mr. Davis left and before
9 Mr. Davis came back.
10 THE WITNESS: I left the White
11 House --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Is Mr. Blow still
13 there?
14 MR. MILLS: Mr. Blow is retired.
15 THE WITNESS: I left the White
16 House last January 30.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q January 30 of 1998?
19 A Yes.
20 Q As part of your duties and
21 responsibilities when you became a member of
22 the White House counsel's staff, it was to go
47
1 on television shows and talk about Clinton
2 controversies, correct?
3 A Would you repeat that question?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q As part of your duties and
7 responsibilities as special counsel in the
8 White House legal office, it was to go on
9 television shows and discuss the Clinton
10 controversies that I just mentioned?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection. You
12 mentioned a lot of controversies. Misstates
13 testimony. Mr. Davis has told you that many
14 of the controversies that you mentioned were
15 not within his areas of responsibility.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Please do not give
17 speaking objections. The Court admonished
18 that type of objection in this case.
19 MR. MILLS: I think I am entitled
20 to make my record on how you mischaracterize
21 testimony.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: If you continue to
48
1 make a record, Mr. Mills, I have no choice
2 but to move for appropriate relief.
3 MR. MILLS: I will make my record,
4 Mr. Klayman, and do whatever you feel you
5 must do.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: We will certainly do
7 that.
8 MR. MILLS: Thank you.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't think that
10 should impede us from trying to work things
11 out amicably. Basically, I am advising you
12 that the Court on several occasions has asked
13 the parties not to make speaking objections.
14 MR. MILLS: I have always abided by
15 court orders, and I intend to do so here,
16 Mr. Klayman. If there is a controversy that
17 comes up here where you feel I am not, you
18 can take that to the Court, and we will
19 adjudicate it.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I am sorry you have
21 that attitude. Certify it.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
49
1 Q You can respond.
2 A You need to repeat the question.
3 Q As part of your duties and
4 responsibilities as special White House
5 counsel, were you authorized to go on
6 television shows and talk about the various
7 Clinton controversies I just mentioned?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection as
9 before.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Campaign finance, Filegate,
12 Travelgate, Whitewater?
13 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, objection.
14 Compound. Why don't you ask the question one
15 at a time?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
17 THE WITNESS: The answer is no.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q So the White House told you you
20 could not talk about any controversies other
21 than campaign finance when you went on TV?
22 A That is not correct either.
50
1 Q What was your authority?
2 A There were occasions where I was
3 permitted to -- as to one when it comes to
4 speak to the media on television, relating to
5 a particular issue, that it was judged to be
6 appropriate for me to speak about.
7 Q Your duties and responsibilities,
8 you were authorized to speak to the media
9 about various issues, correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q The primary issue was campaign
12 finance?
13 A Correct.
14 Q But you were authorized to speak
15 about other Clinton controversies; correct?
16 A I don't believe that is correct.
17 Q So you are saying that when you
18 discussed Filegate on TV, that you didn't
19 have the authority of the White House to do
20 that?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
22 facts not in evidence. Foundation.
51
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q You can respond.
4 A You are not accurately describing
5 when I spoke about the subject of the file
6 controversy and when I was at the White
7 House.
8 The file controversy comments that
9 I made on television was before I was at the
10 White House.
11 Q So you never discussed FBI or
12 government files on television during the
13 period you were at the White House?
14 A I never did.
15 Q You are absolutely certain?
16 A I am not absolutely certain of it.
17 I believe I never did.
18 Q You were in power, however, to go
19 on television as part of your duties and
20 responsibilities?
21 A That was part of my duties and
22 responsibilities, yes.
52
1 Q Each time that you appeared on
2 television while you were working at the
3 White House, did you have to get specific
4 permission to do that?
5 A I wouldn't use the word
6 "permission," no.
7 Q How did it work? How did you
8 determine that you were allowed to go on a
9 particular TV show and speak?
10 A I think there was a general
11 consensus that would develop that we needed
12 to respond to press inquiries in public
13 rather than over the telephone. And after
14 some discussions, we came to a consensus.
15 Q Who did you have the discussions
16 with?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. We are
18 going to consult with counsel for a moment.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. MILLS: Let's go off the record
21 for a minute, please.
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
53
1 video record at 10:49.
2 (Recess)
3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
4 record at 10:51.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: The direction I
6 asserted is the only problem that we are
7 going to have is that the witness just
8 testified that while he was at the White
9 House, he didn't speak about FBI files or
10 misuse of government files. So there is
11 nothing more that is relevant to know about
12 the workings of his office and his television
13 appearances.
14 So I think that the question that
15 you have asked is already outside of the
16 Court's order.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: First of all, you
18 don't get to determine issues of relevancy.
19 The Court has made that clear. You cannot
20 instruct a witness not to answer on the basis
21 of relevancy.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: The Court has,
54
1 itself, defined the relevancy issues, and I
2 can instruct him not to answer based on the
3 Court's ruling. That would be Rule 30 of the
4 Federal rules.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't do that,
6 because as we discussed many times, we are
7 entitled to understand his authority, what
8 his position was at the White House. These
9 are issues that deal with his role at the
10 White House.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: You asked that
12 question, and he has answered it.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: That is the basis of
14 these questions. Whether or not he ever
15 discussed Filegate or not is not relevant.
16 We are entitled to get into that aspects of
17 his duties and responsibility.
18 If you instruct him not to answer,
19 you do it at very, very great risk. I am
20 asking you not to do that.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: I think we are going
22 to have a problem, then, because the Court's
55
1 order is very clear, and it has reiterated
2 its order several times now that the issues
3 on the table are the FBI files matter, or
4 generally, the misuse of government files.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: The Court also ruled
6 that we are entitled to get into background.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think there
8 has been a ruling about background. I think
9 that your obligation is to tie it into the
10 issues that are relevant.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read back the
12 question?
13 (The reporter read the record as
14 requested.)
15 MR. KLAYMAN: That establishes who
16 he was in contact with, who he works with.
17 That is relevant.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Why don't you ask him
19 who he works with?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand
21 the objection of finding out who he is in
22 contact with in terms of arranging for his TV
56
1 appearances. Why does there need to be a
2 fight about that?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Because there is an
4 order defining the scope of relevant issues
5 on the table. You are not entitled to go
6 into the workings of counsel's office. That
7 is not the subject of this lawsuit.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: It is the subject of
9 this lawsuit. The White House counsel's
10 office is deeply involved in Filegate.
11 MR. MILLS: The testimony of record
12 shows that Mr. Davis, while he was at the
13 White House, had nothing to do with the FBI
14 files, the use or obtaining or illegal use of
15 obtaining FBI files. So, Mr. Klayman, I
16 would join in the objection.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not going to
18 waste any time here. We will just make a
19 list and go down to Judge Lamberth's
20 (phonetic) at the appropriate time. This is
21 what you want to do; that is fine.
22 The Court has made certain rules.
57
1 The Court has issued certain sanctions. We
2 will take it up with the Court.
3 MR. MILLS: We will also take up
4 with the Court, Mr. Klayman. I will put on
5 the record that I consider this, as
6 Mr. Davis's counsel, as subject to the
7 objection we already put on the record. This
8 is outside of the scope, of the permissible
9 scope of your inquiries.
10 I will seek sanctions against you
11 as well for inquiries outside of the scope.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: We will seek
13 sanctions for your seeking sanctions.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me make it
15 clear --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Of which there is a
17 case law, as you know, as litigators.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I want to make it
19 clear we don't object to you asking about who
20 he works with generally. What we object to
21 is you trying to narrow into specific issues
22 that are outside of the Court's order by
58
1 asking specifically who he spoke to about
2 specific issues, which is what the question
3 was.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Unfortunately this is
5 no aspersion to Mr. Davis, but there have
6 been witnesses in this case who, when you ask
7 a question one way, you get one answer and
8 when you ask it a different way, you get a
9 different answer.
10 The best way to get an
11 understanding of what his duties and
12 responsibilities are is to see who Mr. Davis
13 works with on a routine basis.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: He can answer who he
15 works with generally. I just said I don't
16 object to that question. I object to you
17 trying to narrow in on the work product of
18 the counsel's office.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to know in
20 what capacity. Let the record also reflect
21 to the extent we get in these discussions and
22 to the extent that you hold this as our use
59
1 of time, we will be asking for an extension
2 of this deposition accordingly.
3 MR. MILLS: Let the record also
4 reflect the Court already said that these
5 depositions -- this deposition and all
6 depositions in this case -- are limited to
7 six hours of testimony.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: But when get
9 objections like this which are unnecessary
10 and go round and round, in my view, it is
11 only attended to run off the clock. This
12 Justice Department does this routinely.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: We are entitled to
14 object, like every counsel.
15 MR. MILLS: That is all part of the
16 time.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. Certify
18 it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q During the period that you were at
21 the White House, who have you worked with?
22 A I am sorry. I meant to turn this
60
1 off.
2 Q Is that the President calling?
3 A I just turned it off. I am sorry.
4 The only thing I am nervous about -- can we
5 go off the record? I have a little baby.
6 Should I turn it off?
7 Q If you want to take the call, that
8 is fine. If you want to identify who it is,
9 if you are nervous about it, I understand
10 that. Want to go off the record and call?
11 A No. How much longer before our
12 first recess?
13 MR. MILLS: Ten minutes. Okay,
14 continue. What was your question?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q My question was, who did you work
17 with on a routine basis during the period you
18 were with the White House?
19 A I work with senior officials in the
20 White House counsel's office and in the west
21 wing.
22 Q Who are they?
61
1 A You want everybody?
2 Q Yes.
3 A I can't promise you I will remember
4 everybody, but I will tell you as many as I
5 possibly remember. Adam Goldberg and Tess
6 Johnson were my two deputies.
7 Q What were their duties and
8 responsibilities?
9 A Assisting me in working with the
10 press.
11 Lanny Breuer, who was a special
12 counsel to the President in charge of
13 investigations.
14 Q What investigations?
15 A Any investigations taking place by
16 the Congressional committees on campaign
17 finance and other possible issues.
18 Q Including FBI and government files?
19 A I do not know whether he was
20 involved in that.
21 Q He worked for you, didn't he?
22 A No. In fact, I reported to him on
62
1 the campaign finance issues.
2 Q Who else?
3 A Various members of the team that
4 worked for Lanny Breuer. Do you want me to
5 name those names?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Dimitri Nionakis.
8 Q How is that spelled?
9 A N-i-o-n-a-k-i-s. Michael
10 Imbroscio, I-m-b-r-o-s-c-i-o, I believe.
11 Q These are all people in
12 Mr. Breuer's team?
13 A Right. Karen Popp, P-o-p-p.
14 Cheryl Mills, Mr. Ruff, and Mr. Quinn, when
15 he was there. Mike McCurry and his various
16 associates in the press office. And those
17 would be the primary ones I would work with.
18 Q Was there anyone that you worked
19 with in the President's office?
20 A What do you mean by "the
21 President's office"?
22 Q The President?
63
1 A I know the President, but what do
2 you mean, his "office"?
3 Q Was anybody in his inner office
4 that you worked with, that you had routine
5 contact with?
6 A What do you mean by "inner office"?
7 Q In and around his office suite?
8 A In and around his office suite.
9 Q Did you work with the chief of
10 staff, for instance, on a regular basis?
11 A Okay. No, not the chief of staff.
12 The deputy chief of staff, John Podesta, I
13 would have worked with on a regular basis.
14 Q What was the nature of your contact
15 with Mr. Podesta?
16 A Regular meetings during the
17 campaign finance hearings.
18 Q During these?
19 A Prior to and during.
20 Q During these meetings, I am not
21 asking for the specifics, but generally, why
22 did these meetings take place?
64
1 MR. MILLS: Objection. Relevancy
2 to this case.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You can respond.
5 A To plan for the coming
6 Congressional hearings, or during the
7 hearings, to discuss the press inquiries
8 associated with the hearings or the campaign
9 finance issues and my responses to those
10 inquiries.
11 Q We never finished this line of
12 questioning. Was there any procedure at the
13 White House before you did a television
14 appearance that you would have to go through
15 to clear your doing the television
16 appearance?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: One moment, please.
18 That is the same question that we objected to
19 earlier.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's go off the
21 record, because we don't want our time used.
22 We are not going to count this as our time.
65
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
2 video record at 11:03.
3 (Discussion off the record)
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Back on the record.
5 VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by, please.
6 We are back on the video record at 11:04.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: He described
8 generally, and I have allowed him to answer
9 questions generally, about who he works with
10 and his duties and responsibilities. But the
11 specific workings and work product of the
12 counsel's office, I am going to instruct him
13 not to answer, including the question about
14 on specific issues, how he would obtain
15 approval or requests to appear on television
16 shows.
17 So instruct the witness not to
18 answer.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying that
20 to obtain approval to say something publicly
21 is part of a work product privilege?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
66
1 MR. KLAYMAN: That is in
2 anticipation of litigation?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Is it not true that Mike McCurry,
7 press secretary of the White House, described
8 you to the media as the one to see to discuss
9 Clinton controversies?
10 A That is not correct.
11 Q Why is it not correct?
12 A The word "controversy" is much too
13 broad.
14 Q How would you define it?
15 A Campaign finance issues, for the
16 most part.
17 Q You are saying that Mike McCurry
18 never said to the media that Lanny Davis was
19 limited to campaign finance only?
20 A That he never said that?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
22 THE WITNESS: I think he did tell
67
1 them I was primarily responsible for
2 questions and information pertaining to the
3 campaign finance issues.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q He also told them that you are
6 responsible for Clinton controversies
7 generally, correct?
8 A I don't know what he told them, but
9 that is not my observation, no.
10 Q Was there someone in the White
11 House counsel's office that the media was to
12 contact concerning the FBI file matter, the
13 government file matter?
14 A I don't know.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
16 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
17 Exhibit No. 1.
18 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 1
19 was marked for identification.)
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Exhibit No. 1 is a White House
22 statement by the press secretary Mike McCurry
68
1 dated November 21, 1996. Have you ever seen
2 this document before?
3 A I don't think so. I don't believe
4 so.
5 Q Based upon your experience in
6 working at the White House, was it your
7 understanding that the press secretary, Mike
8 McCurry, could make representations about you
9 and your background without talking to you
10 first?
11 A I have no idea how to answer that
12 question.
13 Q First paragraph reads, "The White
14 House announced today that Lanny J. Davis
15 will join the White House counsel's office as
16 special counsel, effective December 9,
17 1996" -- I'm adding the 1996 -- "to serve as
18 press spokesman on certain legal issues,
19 including those related to the Whitewater and
20 travel office investigations, and to recent
21 questions regarding campaign contributions."
22 A That was probably -- certainly was
69
1 the perception of the press office when they
2 did this press release at the time. It is
3 was not my understanding of my job
4 responsibilities.
5 This is dated November 1, 1996 and
6 I didn't begin the job until December 9. It
7 is possible that they believed I was going to
8 be responsible for those issues before I
9 arrived, but that was not any understanding.
10 Q So you are saying that this
11 statement by Mike McCurry is false?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection.
13 Mischaracterizes his testimony.
14 THE WITNESS: It appears to be, in
15 retrospect, inaccurate. It may have been
16 accurate at the time. That is there may have
17 been an expectation at the time that I was
18 hired that I was to speak to those issues,
19 although that was not my understanding.
20 In retrospect, it certainly isn't
21 accurate, because I did not speak at all to
22 the travel office investigations. I did, as
70
1 I said earlier, just touch upon some
2 Whitewater issues incidentally.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Are you saying no one ever told you
5 at the White House that you would be in
6 charge of Whitewater and travel office
7 matters in terms of communication to the
8 press?
9 A Not travel office matters, and not,
10 except incidentally, Whitewater matters. The
11 primary job I was described when I first
12 talked to Mr. Quinn was to deal with the
13 pending Congressional investigations and
14 press inquiries, which were then very intense
15 in December of 1996, concerning the campaign
16 finance allegations.
17 Q You are saying no one ever said to
18 you, "Lanny, you are going to be responsible
19 for Whitewater and the travel controversy as
20 well"?
21 A Correct.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
71
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Let's read the rest of this.
3 "Mr. Davis has been a partner in the
4 Washington, D.C. law firm of Patton Boggs
5 since 1978. He has also been active in the
6 Democratic Party and in national, state and
7 local politics. Mr. Davis has appeared as a
8 private citizen on a number of television and
9 radio programs to address questions relating
10 to the issues he will work on in the
11 counsel's office.
12 "He replaces Mark Fabiani, who
13 resigned from counsel's office after having
14 served for the past year and a half as White
15 House spokesman on these issues.
16 "Mr. Davis served three terms as a
17 representative for the state of Maryland on
18 the Democratic National Committee. He served
19 on the DNC executive committee and as
20 chairman of the eastern region caucus. He is
21 a former chairman of the Washington Suburban
22 Transit Commission and the Commission on
72
1 Reorganization of Montgomery County, Maryland
2 government.
3 "The author of The Emerging
4 Democratic Majority: Lessons and Legacies
5 from the New Politics, (1973), Mr. Davis
6 received his BA from Yale College and his
7 LL.B. from Yale Law School. He joined Patton
8 Boggs in 1975 after two years with the
9 Arnold & Porter law firm in Washington, D.C.
10 "Mr. Davis and his wife, Carolyn
11 Atwell-Davis, reside in Potomac, Maryland."
12 Where did the White House press
13 office get this information to be able to
14 prepare this press release, which has a lot
15 of your background?
16 A I sent them a biographical
17 statement.
18 Q You did have contact with them over
19 the preparation of this press release?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection.
21 Mischaracterizes his testimony. Assumes
22 facts not in evidence.
73
1 THE WITNESS: They asked me for
2 biographical information and I sent it to
3 them.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q They sent you a back a copy of the
6 press release they intended to issue on your
7 behalf?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection. Is that a
9 statement or a question?
10 THE WITNESS: I don't think so.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q The travel office controversy, that
13 involves an individual by the name of Billy
14 Dale, does it not?
15 A I believe so.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You are aware that the obtained the
19 FBI file on Billy Dale?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
21 THE WITNESS: I am not sure of
22 that.
74
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You have heard that, haven't you?
3 A I can't be sure I have heard that
4 his FBI files were obtained for --
5 Q For Billy Dale?
6 A I don't think I knew that.
7 Q You didn't know that until I just
8 said that?
9 A I don't think so.
10 Q As part of your daily activities at
11 the White House, did you read various
12 newspapers and publications?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What newspapers and publications
15 did you read?
16 A The major national newspapers and
17 some local newspapers.
18 Q What were the major national
19 newspapers?
20 A New York Times, Wall Street
21 Journal, Washington Post, USA Today.
22 Q Did you read the same newspapers
75
1 when you were previously with Patton Boggs?
2 A No. I actually read the Washington
3 Post.
4 Q Did you also read the Washington
5 Times when you were at the White House?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q You still read the Washington
8 Times?
9 A Once in awhile.
10 Q Have you ever heard of an
11 individual by the name of Mr. Brasseux?
12 A No.
13 Q Are you aware that his file was
14 obtained as well by the White House?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q B-r-a-s-s-e-u-x?
18 A No, I was not aware of that.
19 Q Are you aware he worked in the
20 travel office with Mr. Dale?
21 A I was not aware of that.
22 Could we go off the record?
76
1 Never mind.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want to take
3 your five-minute break?
4 THE WITNESS: I was going to ask
5 you.
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
7 video record at 11:13.
8 (Discussion off the record)
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video record
10 at 11:26.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Before we start, I am
12 going to withdraw the objection and, for
13 purposes of moving this along, I am allowing
14 Mr. Davis to answer the question about how he
15 went about getting authorization to appear on
16 his TV shows.
17 So if you want to ask about that
18 process, you can go ahead and ask that
19 question.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Can you please answer that
22 question?
77
1 A It was an informal process. It was
2 no authority or decisionmaking, as your
3 question implied. It was an informal
4 consensus that I would seek from various
5 people whose opinions I respected: Press
6 office people, counsel's office people, and
7 political people.
8 Q In the ordinary course of seeking
9 that informal approval, who did you consult
10 with?
11 A Again, I wouldn't necessarily use
12 the word "approval." It was sort of a
13 consensus that we would all come to, and I
14 would consult with primarily in the press
15 office, Michael McCurry and Stuart Schear
16 (phonetic), primarily in the counsel's
17 office.
18 Q Who was Stuart Schear?
19 A Stuart Schear was responsible for
20 receiving the phone calls from television
21 producers, inviting me to appear. He was in
22 the category of a booker, if you were looking
78
1 at the outside world.
2 In the counsel's office, I would
3 primarily consult with Lanny Breuer. In the
4 political arena, I guess I would primarily --
5 I guess I didn't really talk to people in the
6 political field. Once in awhile Doug Sosmic
7 (phonetic) or Rahm Emanuel, but mostly it
8 would be Lanny Breuer or Mike McCurry.
9 Q In Exhibit 1, which I read to you,
10 it says, "Mr. Davis has appeared as a private
11 citizen on a number of television and radio
12 programs to address questions relating to the
13 issues he will work on in the counsel's
14 office."
15 During the time you were with the
16 White House, did you ever make appearances in
17 your private capacity?
18 A Could I just pause for a second?
19 Where did you read that sentence?
20 Q Second paragraph.
21 A Okay.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Assert an objection
79
1 to the form of the question.
2 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the
3 question?
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q During the time that you were at
6 the White House, did you ever appear on TV
7 and radio programs in your private capacity?
8 A No, I did not.
9 Q In this regard, this statement:
10 "Mr. Davis has appeared as a private citizen
11 on a number of television and radio programs
12 to address questions relating to the issues
13 he will work on in the counsel's office," is
14 the White House press secretary referring to
15 the fact that you made private appearances
16 before you joined the White House on issues
17 relating to Whitewater and the Travelgate
18 investigations?
19 A I don't know what he is referring
20 to at all.
21 Q How did he get the information to
22 be able to make that statement, Mr. McCurry?
80
1 A Mr. Davis. How did Mr. McCurry --
2 Q Mr. McCurry made the statement, but
3 where did he get that information, to the
4 best of your knowledge?
5 A I can only tell you what I told the
6 press office prior to my going to the White
7 House about my past activities. That is the
8 only thing I can tell you. I don't know
9 where he got information from, but I can only
10 tell you what I told him.
11 Q Does the White House press
12 secretary keep a collection of various
13 appearances by Clinton friends and allies on
14 radio and television?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
16 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Do they keep the videos, for
19 instance, of appearances of Clinton allies
20 and friends, based on your knowledge?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, form.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
81
1 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Have you ever asked?
4 A No.
5 Q You were served with a subpoena in
6 this case, correct?
7 A Yes, I was.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
9 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
10 Exhibit No. 2.
11 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 2
12 was marked for identification.)
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Showing you Exhibit No. 2,
15 Mr. Davis, is this a copy of the subpoena
16 which you received from Judicial Watch?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection. The witness
18 has to have an opportunity to review it.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure, take your time.
20 MR. MILLS: Counsel for the witness
21 will have to have an opportunity to compare
22 it with what was received.
82
1 THE WITNESS: While counsel is
2 reviewing it, I can't say with certainty that
3 there isn't a page missing or words that
4 might have been changed. But this looks to
5 me as the same document that we received,
6 without knowing for certain that it is the
7 exact same document.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: For purposes of
9 allowing yourself and Mr. Mills an
10 opportunity to review documents, let me mark
11 as Exhibit 3 a notice of deposition duces
12 tecum which was served upon you subsequent to
13 the subpoena, which narrows the scope of
14 certain document requests.
15 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 3
16 was marked for identification.)
17 MR. MILLS: Mr. Klayman, with
18 respect to Exhibit No. 2 and Exhibit 3, so
19 that this can be moved along, we will reserve
20 our right to object to the authenticity of
21 this, and both exhibits, subject to
22 comparison. But I don't think it is fruitful
83
1 to sit here and compare word for word, line
2 by line, at this particular point in order to
3 satisfy ourselves as to authenticity.
4 So we will reserve that objection.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I appreciate that.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q So you did receive the notice of
8 deposition which is Exhibit No. 3 in addition
9 to the subpoena?
10 A Subject to the objection, yes.
11 Q Have you produced any documents
12 here today in response to the subpoena and
13 narrowed notice of deposition?
14 A I have not.
15 Q Did you search for documents in
16 response to the subpoena and notice of
17 deposition duces tecum?
18 A Subject to the advice of counsel as
19 to what I was supposed to search for in the
20 area of responsiveness, I did do a very
21 diligent search, yes.
22 Q At the time that you left the White
84
1 House in January of this year, did you take
2 documents with you?
3 A I took -- by documents, I would --
4 the answer is yes. But the definition of
5 documents --
6 Q Tell me everything that you took.
7 A I made copies of various press
8 clippings and documents that were the subject
9 of published reports. I made copies of those
10 and took them with me, yes.
11 Q Did any of those documents refer or
12 relate in any way to Filegate or government
13 files?
14 A No, they did not.
15 Q Did you seek clearance of the
16 documents which you took from the White
17 House?
18 A No, I did not.
19 Q At the time that you took the
20 documents, were you aware of any procedure to
21 clear documents which are removed from the
22 White House?
85
1 A I made copies of documents. The
2 originals were left behind me. I made the
3 judgment that there was no objection to my
4 copying items that one could get out of
5 NEXIS, which is published newspaper reports,
6 and I had no concern about making copies of
7 documents that were the subjects of published
8 reports. Those were the two categories of
9 copies that I made.
10 Q At the time that you left the White
11 House, were you aware of any clearance
12 procedures with regard to documents taken
13 from the premises?
14 A I was not aware of any clearance
15 procedures regarding copies of documents. I
16 was aware of clearance procedures regarding
17 secured documents, classified documents, that
18 sort of thing.
19 Q During the time that you were at
20 the White House, did you have a security
21 clearance?
22 A Yes.
86
1 Q What type of security clearance did
2 you have?
3 A Secret. I don't think I know the
4 answer to that. I don't think I know the
5 answer to that. It was definitely a
6 clearance, but I forget the level.
7 Q During the time you were at the
8 White House, did you ever see classified
9 material?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you ever see classified
12 material with regard to the Filegate issue?
13 A No, I did not.
14 Q I am going to use the word
15 "Filegate issue" and include government
16 files.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
18 definition as vague.
19 MR. MILLS: Objection.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You understand what I mean?
22 A Why don't you say "Filegate and
87
1 government files"?
2 Q I am talking about the procuring of
3 FBI files by the White House, and any other
4 government files that contain information
5 that has been released about individuals such
6 as Linda Tripp, Kathleen Willey, and others.
7 That is the nature of my definition.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: I am going to
9 reassert the vagueness objection, because I
10 think that is not a workable definition.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Do you understand what I said? She
13 can have her objection.
14 A I understand what you said, but if
15 you use the expression "other government
16 files," I am going to have a hard time
17 figuring what you are talking about. But
18 let's go forward.
19 MR. MILLS: Let the record reflect
20 that we have made objections to your use of
21 that particular description as vague and
22 ambiguous. We made those objections on the
88
1 record.
2 There are four objections: A
3 preliminary objection and three supplemental
4 objections to the documents request. And we
5 restate here and reincorporate here those
6 objections.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q During the time you were at the
9 White House, did you ever see classified FBI
10 material of any kind?
11 A No, I did not.
12 Q Did you ever see classified
13 Pentagon material at any time?
14 A I don't believe so.
15 Q Did you ever have access to the
16 personnel files of any White House employees
17 during the time that you worked there?
18 A I did not.
19 Q Did you ever have access to the
20 security files of any employees of the
21 Pentagon at the time that you worked there?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection. Vague,
89
1 ambiguous in terms of security files.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
3 THE WITNESS: I did not.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q During the time that you worked at
6 the White House, did Howard Ickes also work
7 at the White House for part of that period of
8 time?
9 A Very briefly.
10 Q Do you know whether Mr. Ickes left
11 the White House with documentation?
12 A Tell me what you mean by
13 "documentation"?
14 Q Pieces of paper, computer
15 diskettes, recordations on dictaphones,
16 anything to that effect?
17 A Pieces of paper, yes. The others I
18 am not aware of.
19 Q How did you become aware of that?
20 A The copies of documents that he
21 made and took with him when he left the White
22 House were requested by a Congressional
90
1 committee, and were sent to the Congressional
2 committee pursuant to a subpoena. I believe
3 it was in December or January of 1996, '97; I
4 don't remember when.
5 As a result of that subpoena and
6 that production, Mr. Ickes chose to release
7 to the press all of those documents, and sent
8 us copies at the White House of all of the
9 documents that he was going to release to the
10 press.
11 It was my responsibility to respond
12 to press inquiries about those documents.
13 Q Was there anything in those
14 documents that referred or related in any way
15 to the Filegate controversy?
16 A I don't recall that there were any.
17 I don't think so, but I don't recall.
18 Q Do you know whether Mr. Ickes ever
19 took documents that referred or related in
20 any way to the Filegate controversy?
21 A Not that I am aware of.
22 Q Did you have an opportunity to
91
1 review the documents with Mr. Ickes before he
2 left the White House?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q So all you know is that you
5 received the documents which he gave to the
6 Congressional committee?
7 A Copies of the documents, that's
8 right.
9 Q You don't know whether or not he
10 produced all of the requested documents to
11 the Congressional committees?
12 A I do not.
13 Q You don't know whether or not he
14 withheld documents on the Congressional
15 committees?
16 A I do not.
17 Q Do you know where Mr. Ickes stored
18 the documents that he took from the White
19 House?
20 A I do not.
21 Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Ickes
22 his removal of documents from the White
92
1 House?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q When did you discuss that with him?
4 A Shortly after I was aware of the
5 need to respond to press inquiries about the
6 documents that he was about to release, I
7 asked him about the circumstances of his
8 taking the documents with him, because I knew
9 I would be asked about that by members of the
10 press corps.
11 Q Who contacted who, you or
12 Mr. Ickes?
13 A We literally, physically bumped
14 into each other on a street corner.
15 Q What street corner was it?
16 A I remember it well. It was 17th
17 and Pennsylvania Avenue.
18 Q I thought you were going to say "a
19 street corner named desire."
20 A I bumped into him as I was leaving
21 late night, right before the release of the
22 documents to the press. We had a very brief
93
1 conversation. That is when I asked him about
2 the circumstances of his taking those
3 documents with him.
4 Q What did he tell you?
5 A He told me that making copies of
6 documents that were essentially political
7 documents and not classified did not present
8 a problem as far as he was aware of any rules
9 or regulations, that I could say that to the
10 press. I did so repeat that to the press
11 many times.
12 Q You were concerned that he had
13 taken government documents?
14 A I wasn't concerned. I was simply
15 anticipating the inquiry, was Mr. Ickes
16 permitted to take the documents, copies of
17 the documents that he did? He gave me his
18 answer, and I repeated that answer.
19 Q Was that one of the areas that you
20 were authorized to discuss with the press,
21 the removal of the Ickes documents?
22 A Yes.
94
1 Q What context were you authorized to
2 discuss that with the press?
3 A In the overall context of the
4 campaign finance story, which was the context
5 for that release, the fundraising and
6 political activities in the White House would
7 be the way I would define overall the
8 campaign finance story. Those documents, to
9 the extent they reflected on those issues,
10 were in my areas of responsibility.
11 Q Did Mr. Ickes tell you where he
12 stored those documents in this conversation
13 or any other later conversation?
14 A No, he did not.
15 Q Are you aware that he stored the
16 documents that he stored the documents in a
17 Georgetown house, Fire Island, and another
18 New York location?
19 A No, I wasn't.
20 Q Are you aware that he claims to
21 have given a lot of those documents to
22 Mr. Bob Bennett?
95
1 A I knew that he gave a lot of those
2 documents to his attorney, Bob Bennett.
3 Q Was anyone at the White House
4 concerned that Mr. Ickes had removed
5 documents without getting approval?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Who?
10 A I guess -- I can't remember whether
11 Mr. Breuer was in the White House at the time
12 of the first Ickes documents disclosure. But
13 we were concerned about how to answer the
14 question on whether it was okay to make those
15 copies and take them out of the White House.
16 The press was asking questions after the
17 release of those documents.
18 We answered the question along the
19 lines that Mr. Ickes told us.
20 Q So you told the press that it was
21 permissible for Mr. Ickes to remove those
22 documents?
96
1 A Yes. I told them it was
2 permissible for Mr. Ickes to make copies and
3 remove those documents, yes.
4 Q Had you reviewed the documents
5 themselves before you made the statement to
6 the press?
7 A Not all of them, but most of them.
8 Q Are you aware Mr. Ickes produced in
9 this lawsuit documents related to Filegate
10 that he removed from the White House?
11 A I was not aware of that, no.
12 Q Was the President concerned that
13 Mr. Ickes removed the documents from the
14 White House?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: I want to caution the
16 witness not to reveal the substance of
17 conversations.
18 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you ever discuss it with him?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q After that time that you saw
97
1 Mr. Ickes on the street corner, have you ever
2 spoken with him?
3 A With Mr. Ickes?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Many, many times.
6 Q Why do you speak frequently with
7 Mr. Ickes?
8 A He is a friend of 30 years.
9 Q Good friend?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Ickes
12 about his appearance in this case, Alexander
13 v. FBI?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague. Can
15 you define "appearance"?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q He was deposed in this lawsuit.
18 A No, I haven't.
19 Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Ickes
20 about anything he knows about Filegate?
21 A No, I haven't.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
98
1 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Ickes
4 about Linda Tripp?
5 A I don't believe so.
6 Q You are not sure?
7 A I am not sure, but I don't believe
8 so.
9 Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Ickes
10 about Kathleen Willey?
11 A I might have.
12 Q What did you speak with him about
13 Kathleen Willey?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection. Assumes
15 fact not in evidence. The response was he
16 may have.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: This is just
18 discovery. If you have recollection of any
19 sort, please provide it.
20 THE WITNESS: After the first
21 published reports in Newsweek magazine, I
22 believe I had a conversation with him about
99
1 the story.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q When was that?
4 A I think it was probably the summer
5 of 1997.
6 Q As was that conversation in person
7 or by phone or otherwise?
8 A I can't remember.
9 Q What was discussed?
10 A What do you think of the story? I
11 think I asked him what did you think of the
12 story in Newsweek? I think he said "I can't
13 figure it out," or, you know, "I don't know
14 what the docs are," or something to that
15 effect.
16 That's all.
17 Q Have you ever discussed with anyone
18 the release of Kathleen Willey's letters by
19 the White House?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Who did you discuss it with?
22 A Mr. Breuer, for the most part.
100
1 Q Anyone else?
2 A I can't really remember.
3 Q What did you discuss with
4 Mr. Breuer?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
7 MR. MILLS: A moment to consult
8 with the witness.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you give us a
10 time frame for that question?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: When the conversation
12 occurred. I asked Mr. Davis for that time
13 frame.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: I didn't hear it.
15 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
16 Q When did you have this discussion
17 with Mr. Breuer?
18 A Right after the letters were
19 released. I called Mr. Breuer to say, can
20 you send me a copy of the letters that were
21 released to the press?
22 Q Did he send you those copies?
101
1 A Yes, he did.
2 Q How did he send them to you?
3 A I believe his assistant faxed them
4 to me.
5 Q Who was his assistant?
6 A Brian Smith.
7 Q Were they received in your office
8 at Patton Boggs?
9 A I can't remember whether they were
10 received at my office or at my home fax. It
11 could have been either one.
12 Q Do you still have a copy of those
13 letters?
14 A I don't think so. I read them -- I
15 used them as a basis for some television
16 appearances, and then I closed -- as the
17 issue fades, I throw them out and wait for
18 the next batch.
19 Q These letters were faxed after you
20 already left the White House?
21 A Yes, this is just recently.
22 Q You are no longer an employee of
102
1 the White House?
2 A Correct.
3 Q You are no longer an employee of
4 the federal government?
5 A Correct.
6 Q At the time that these letters were
7 sent to you, did you ask anyone where the
8 letters were stored at the White House?
9 A No, I did not.
10 Q During the course of your legal
11 practice, which dates back to -- when did you
12 graduate from law school again?
13 A 1970, but I began in '72.
14 Q '72, you did become familiar with
15 the Privacy Act, did you not?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection. No
17 foundation.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A No.
21 Q Do you know what the Privacy Act
22 is?
103
1 A I know of it. I don't know too
2 much about it.
3 Q How did you learn about the Privacy
4 Act?
5 A I can't really remember. Read
6 about it in the newspapers, probably.
7 Q When you worked at the White House,
8 was that the first time you ever worked for
9 the federal government?
10 A Yes, with the exception of an
11 internship in the Senate in my second year in
12 law school.
13 Q At the White House, was there any
14 documentation or training that a new employee
15 got concerning the Privacy Act that you know
16 of?
17 A I don't believe so. We took an
18 ethics course that we all had to attend, and
19 I don't remember the Privacy Act issue being
20 discussed at the ethic course. It might have
21 been.
22 Q Who taught the ethics course?
104
1 A Who taught the ethics course? It
2 was taught by two White House counsels. I
3 believe her name was Kathy. I forget her
4 last name.
5 Q Kathy was both White House counsel?
6 A No, this is another Kathy.
7 Q There were two White House counsels
8 named Kathy?
9 A There were at one point two people
10 in the White House office called Kathy.
11 Q Both teaching ethics courses?
12 A No.
13 Q Who was the other one teaching
14 ethic courses?
15 A I forget. There -- it would be
16 done through a panel on the stage. There
17 would be a little skit that would be
18 performed with people performing different
19 roles on different hypothetical scenario.
20 Q When did you take the ethics course
21 upon your beginning at the White House?
22 A Yes.
105
1 Q They did teach aspects of the
2 Privacy Act?
3 A They could have.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you ever receive any written
7 materials during your time at the White
8 House, giving you advice on the Privacy Act?
9 A I don't believe so, but I don't
10 remember.
11 Q Why did you request the White House
12 to send you the Kathleen Willey letters?
13 A I was about to be on a television
14 program, and that was in the news, and I
15 wanted to be prepared.
16 Q What television program was that?
17 A I think it was Geraldo.
18 Q Now, at the time that you left the
19 White House, was there any understanding that
20 you would do press appearances discussing
21 issues involving the Clinton controversies?
22 A What do you mean by
106
1 "understanding"?
2 Q Understanding with the White House?
3 A I told them that I would, but there
4 was no agreement for me to do so.
5 Q Was there an agreement that they
6 would provide materials to you that would
7 help you in your TV appearances after you
8 left the White House?
9 A No, there was not.
10 Q But they have provided materials to
11 you from time to time since you left the
12 White House?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you receive any compensation for
15 making appearances, discussing the Clinton
16 controversies, during the period you left the
17 White House?
18 A No, I do not.
19 Q I believe you recently made a
20 statement, did you not, to the media that you
21 had initially intended to only do White House
22 spin for about 90 days or so after you left
107
1 the White House?
2 A I never made that --
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
5 THE WITNESS: I never made that
6 statement.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q That was a false quote in the
9 newspaper?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection. No
11 foundation.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't think you
13 would find a quote from me that uses the word
14 "spin."
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q What word did you use?
17 A I think I said my original
18 expectation was that I would appear on
19 television shows to discuss these issues for
20 about three months after leaving the White
21 House. That was my expectation.
22 Q Did you discuss that with the White
108
1 House at the time that you left?
2 A No.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you discuss that with anyone at
7 the time that you left?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Who did you discuss it with?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
13 THE WITNESS: My wife.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Why did you set three months as a
16 period?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A I was tired, and I wanted to return
21 to my family and my law practice and my
22 private life.
109
1 Q At the time that you left the White
2 House, did you feel that you had a duty to
3 make these TV appearances to discuss the
4 Clinton controversies for at least a limited
5 period of time?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
7 THE WITNESS: I am not going to
8 accept the word "duty" as you used it. But I
9 will tell you the answer as I would describe
10 it.
11 I felt very strongly that this was
12 a very important presidency and a very
13 important administration, and I was also very
14 loyal and felt a deep feeling of friendship
15 to the President and Mrs. Clinton.
16 Based upon those feelings, I wanted
17 to continue to be of assistance to them,
18 especially in the new controversies that had
19 just arisen, despite my departure. So I felt
20 a strong desire to be of assistance to them
21 for at least a reasonable period of time,
22 even after leaving the White House.
110
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Did you express that strong desire
3 to anybody at the White House at the time you
4 left or before?
5 A Yes.
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Who?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: I join on the
10 relevancy objections.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: You can have a
12 running objection.
13 THE WITNESS: I would say virtually
14 everybody that I work with in the White
15 House, I expressed that to.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Did you express that feeling with
18 Mike McCurry?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did you express that feeling with
21 Lanny Breuer?
22 A Yes.
111
1 MR. MILLS: This entire line of
2 questioning is subject to continuing
3 objection of relevance. I wanted that on the
4 record.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: That is fine.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you express that feeling with
8 the President?
9 A Could we go back to the words "that
10 feeling," and what answer we are referring
11 to?
12 Q The strong sentiment that you
13 should do --
14 A That answer as to why, that whole
15 answer?
16 Q We will call it the feeling.
17 A Yes, I did say that to the
18 President.
19 Q Did you say that is to
20 Mrs. Clinton?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q Did you express that feeling to the
112
1 chief of staff, Erskine Bowles?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Anyone else in a high position in a
4 White House?
5 A Everyone in a high position in the
6 White House.
7 Q Sidney Blumenthal?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Paul Begala?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Ann Lewis?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Rahm Emanuel?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did they thank you for having that
16 feeling?
17 A Some did.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Some say you shouldn't have that
21 feeling.
22 A None of them said I shouldn't have
113
1 that feeling.
2 Q During the time that, I believe you
3 stated that you subsequently extended that
4 90-day period?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You said that to the press,
7 correct? You were quoted recently to that
8 effect?
9 A Yes, I have.
10 Q You are now on your 160th-some day,
11 correct?
12 A I have not counted.
13 Q Is there a reason that you extended
14 that period?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Why is that?
17 A I still have the very strong
18 feeling, and it is hard to say no, given that
19 strong feeling.
20 Q Now, after you left the White
21 House, have you made media appearances where
22 you discussed the FBI file controversy?
114
1 A Since I left the White House?
2 Q Yes.
3 A I can't say for sure that the
4 subject has never come up on any of the many
5 programs that I have done, including some
6 with you. But I don't think so. It is
7 possible, but I don't think so.
8 MR. MILLS: If counsel has specific
9 appearances he wishes to question about,
10 where he can cite specific discussions by
11 Mr. Davis of the FBI files matter, perhaps
12 that would be a fruitful means of proceeding.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: We will do that.
14 This is obviously my questioning, and I take
15 that suggestion. I take it under advisement.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Have you ever discussed, since you
18 have left the White House, the Travelgate
19 matter?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
21 BY THE WITNESS:
22 Q On any of these media appearances?
115
1 A I think I have made reference to
2 some of these so-called 'gates. I may have
3 even made a reference to the FBI or the
4 travel or the Vince Foster, or any of the
5 alleged scandals in the context of a comment
6 that I would make about the overall pattern
7 of allegations without proof, innuendo
8 without facts. I think I have used examples,
9 and I may have made reference to some of
10 those 'gates when I do that.
11 Q You have made appearances since you
12 left the White House discussing the Monica
13 Lewinsky controversy?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection. Relevance
15 and scope.
16 THE WITNESS: I have.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I am just laying the
18 foundation.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You have made media appearances
21 since you left the White House where you
22 discussed Linda Tripp?
116
1 A Yes.
2 Q Kathleen Willey?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Since you have left the White
5 House, the White House has sent to you
6 materials about these controversies from time
7 to time, correct?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
9 THE WITNESS: Upon my request, yes.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q What materials have they sent to
12 you?
13 A Press clippings.
14 Q They have sent you press clippings
15 with regard to Filegate?
16 A I don't believe so.
17 Q They sent you press clippings with
18 regard to Travelgate?
19 A I don't believe so.
20 Q They sent you press clippings with
21 regard to Monica Lewinsky, that controversy?
22 A The whole controversy --
117
1 Q Which includes Tripp and Willey?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection. Form,
3 compound.
4 THE WITNESS: I have gotten lots of
5 press clippings relating to the Monica
6 Lewinsky set of allegations, associated with
7 those allegations, yes.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Do you also clip press clippings
10 yourself at Patton Boggs, or have somebody do
11 it for you?
12 A Not really. I will tear something
13 out of the newspaper that I might think I
14 will need for a particular program. I don't
15 keep too much in the filing system on this
16 particular matter, unless it is a current
17 issue that I am going to need to address in a
18 current show that I am about to be on.
19 MR. MILLS: Just for accuracy on
20 the record here, there has been no testimony
21 by Mr. Davis --
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't make a speaking
118
1 objection, please.
2 MR. MILLS: I am not making a
3 speaking objection. I am just making a
4 clarification. The clarification is
5 Mr. Davis, in his individual capacity, may do
6 something, but I don't think that there has
7 been any foundation laid that the law firm
8 does anything.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: That is a speaking
10 objection, so please don't do that again.
11 Certify it. That is the way to give the
12 witness testimony. That is what the Court
13 objects to.
14 THE WITNESS: What is your
15 question?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q My question is whether there is
18 anybody at Patton Boggs who assists you in
19 doing clippings?
20 A No.
21 Q Is there anyone at Patton Boggs
22 that would handle incoming faxes and then
119
1 give them to you from the White House?
2 A My secretary.
3 Q Who is that?
4 A Wendy Williams.
5 Q Has there been anyone else since
6 you left the White House that you have worked
7 with in that regard?
8 A What regard?
9 Q Giving you materials that were sent
10 to you by the White House by fax or mail?
11 A Sometimes a substitute for Wendy,
12 if she is home ill. I have I had one or two
13 substitutes.
14 Q Who were they?
15 A I don't remember their names. They
16 were floaters in my law firm that substitute
17 when a secretary is sick. It couldn't have
18 been more than a few times.
19 Q You could, given some time,
20 identify those people?
21 A It would be hard. I probably have
22 one today who is sitting at the desk because
120
1 Wendy is home sick.
2 Q What is her name?
3 A I don't really know.
4 Q What is her name, Wendy Homesick?
5 A Wendy is homesick.
6 Q I thought maybe that was her name.
7 A I am sorry.
8 Q Wendy Homesick?
9 A Sorry.
10 Q I didn't hear.
11 Are you looking at some message you
12 are being sent? Mr. Davis, do you want to go
13 off the record?
14 A Are you asking me what I am looking
15 at?
16 Q What are you looking at?
17 A I am waiting for a possible message
18 from my wife about my son, and that was not
19 such a message.
20 Q That is fine. Just let me know and
21 we will go off the record.
22 A That is the only reason I am
121
1 interrupting. I have a four-month-old at
2 home, and if I get a message, I want to know
3 about it.
4 Q Understood.
5 You did receive the Kathleen Willey
6 letters, correct, from the White House?
7 A I received copies of some of the
8 letters. I don't know if they were all of
9 the letters.
10 Q So you did receive more than just
11 press clips since you left?
12 A When I say "press clips," maybe we
13 should define what I mean.
14 Q Please.
15 A I am including in "press clips"
16 documents that were given to the press. So
17 public documents and public stories would be
18 what I would tend to keep for a particular
19 show.
20 Q What other documents were you given
21 by the White House?
22 A When I would receive faxes?
122
1 Q Right, that are given to press,
2 since you left. Please identify them all?
3 A Besides the Willey letters?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Besides newspaper clips, what other
6 documents did I get from the White House that
7 were given out to the press?
8 Statement by Mr. Ruff, statement by
9 Mr. Kendall, transcripts by Mr. McCurry in
10 his press briefings. These were, you know,
11 public statements handed out to the press
12 corps.
13 That is really the most I can
14 remember right now.
15 Q Do you have a file at Patton Boggs
16 or anywhere elsewhere you keep the documents
17 that were sent from the White House?
18 A Not really.
19 Q You do keep some of the documents,
20 do you not?
21 A I kind of throw them in a pile at
22 my office. When I am not going to use them
123
1 anymore, I throw them away.
2 Q But there may still be some there?
3 A There are some there, yes.
4 Q I will ask you not to throw any
5 away that you currently have, because we will
6 make a formal request for those documents to
7 the extent that they were not included in our
8 subpoena?
9 A Sure. I searched everything that I
10 had pursuant to your subpoena, including
11 stuff lying around my office. But if --
12 through my counsel, I would be happy to do
13 that if my counsel advises me.
14 Q I am just asking you to preserve
15 what you have that you have received from the
16 White House.
17 A You can deal with my counsel. I
18 have no objection to doing it.
19 Q I am just putting you on legal
20 notice, that is all.
21 A I have no objection to doing it.
22 MR. MILLS: For the record, with
124
1 respect to any such request, we reserve our
2 right to object on relevancy or any other
3 basis.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Did you ever receive any documents
6 from the White House, since you left, that
7 were not disseminated to the press?
8 A I can only think of one instance,
9 and I think it was disseminated to the press.
10 So I have to say the answer to that is no,
11 but I am not sure of that one instance.
12 Q What was the other instance?
13 A There was a legal analysis in the
14 form of talking points on the issue of
15 executive privilege that I believe was handed
16 out to the press people who asked for it. It
17 was in the form of cases and citations about
18 precedence on the issue of executive
19 privilege.
20 I called the counsel's office to
21 ask for legal background on the executive
22 privilege issue for a television show that I
125
1 was going to be appearing on. I believe they
2 faxed me the legal cases and precedents. I
3 can't say for sure that that was released
4 generally to the press. I know it was made
5 available to the press who asked for it.
6 Q What were the different offices of
7 White House that had faxed you, or sent to
8 you in any way, materials since you left the
9 White House?
10 A Counsel's office and the press
11 office.
12 Q Who in the counsel's office sent
13 you documents?
14 A A variety of people.
15 Q Who?
16 A Jim Kennedy, Brian Smith, Chess
17 Johnson.
18 Q What position is Chess Johnson?
19 A He is a deputy to Jim Kennedy. He
20 was previously my deputy.
21 Q Who else?
22 A Those were the primary ones.
126
1 Q Who were the secretaries or
2 assistants?
3 A We didn't have secretaries.
4 Q Who handled administrative chores?
5 A They did.
6 Q Who from the White House press
7 office sent you materials since you left?
8 A Laurie Anderson, mostly.
9 Q What is her position?
10 A She is an assistant to Mike
11 McCurry.
12 Q Anyone else?
13 A I am never quite sure who is
14 answering the phone. Sometimes there would
15 be people whose names I didn't know. I would
16 almost always call and say, "Can you fax me
17 over the transcript of the McCurry press
18 briefing today?" That was almost always why
19 I would call.
20 Some people would do it that I
21 didn't know, whose names I didn't know.
22 Q In terms of commentary that you
127
1 have made on TV, you are just one of the
2 people that go on and talk about these
3 matters, correct?
4 A It appears that way.
5 Q There is usually somebody that
6 talks about it from the perspective of the
7 Clinton administration and somebody talks
8 about it from another perspective when you
9 make those appearances?
10 A That is definitely the case.
11 Q Are there a group of people that
12 routinely are asked to make appearances on
13 behalf of the White House, Clinton
14 administration?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
16 THE WITNESS: Asked by whom?
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q By the White House or the
19 Democratic National Committee?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
128
1 Q Does the White House keep a list of
2 individuals who are available to make
3 appearances on its behalf?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q Does the Democratic National
6 Committee?
7 A I have no idea.
8 Q Is there any kind of procedure used
9 by the White House or Democratic National
10 Committee disseminated nationally of
11 individuals who would make appearances on
12 their behalf, or radio appearances?
13 A I am not aware of one.
14 Q Are you saying that the Democratic
15 National Committee does not have a list of
16 individuals who can go out and speak on
17 issues favorable to the Democratic National
18 Committee?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
20 THE WITNESS: I am just saying that
21 I am not aware of it. They may have it, but
22 I'm not aware of it.
129
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q From the time you were in the White
3 House and thereafter, are you aware of
4 materials ever having been sent to persons
5 other than yourself from the White House on
6 matters relating to the Clinton
7 controversies?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
10 THE WITNESS: Since my departure
11 from the White House?
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q During and after your departure.
14 Let's start during?
15 A Repeat the question. During?
16 Q During the time you worked for the
17 White House, were you aware of materials
18 being sent to persons outside of the White
19 House who from time to time would do media
20 appearances taking positions favorable to the
21 White House?
22 A Yes.
130
1 Q Who were they?
2 A Specific individuals?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Who received the materials?
5 Q Yes.
6 A Michael Zelden, Rich Goodstein,
7 Stan Gildenhorn. That is all I can
8 specifically remember. There may have been
9 others.
10 Q James Carville?
11 A I wasn't aware of that.
12 Q Who was aware of that?
13 A I don't know.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
15 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Peter Fenn?
18 A I am not aware of that.
19 Q His partner, Mr. King? I forget
20 his first name.
21 A I am not aware of that.
22 Q Jennifer Laslow?
131
1 A I am not aware of that.
2 Q Dick Camber?
3 A I am not aware of that.
4 Q Geraldo Rivera?
5 A I am not aware of that.
6 Q Any other television talk show host
7 where materials were sent to them by the
8 White House during the period that you were
9 there?
10 A Talk show hosts?
11 Q Or their shows?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
13 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by
14 "their shows"?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Let's take, for instance, Geraldo
17 Rivera. He has producers, bookers. He has a
18 whole entourage of people that work with him.
19 A It is possible I faxed material to
20 the producer of Geraldo, Mr. Petrick, when I
21 was at the White House.
22 Q What material did you fax him?
132
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
2 facts not in evidence. The testimony was it
3 is possible.
4 THE WITNESS: It is possible that I
5 faxed Mr. Petrick the day's releases or
6 statements to the press, or other material
7 that I had released to the press.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Did you fax any other materials
10 other than press releases to any TV or radio
11 shows during the period you were there?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What did you fax, and to whom?
14 A Statements that I would release to
15 the press, documents that we had released to
16 the press of any of a number of things.
17 We didn't do press releases. At
18 least I didn't do press releases.
19 Q What documents specifically were
20 faxed by you to members of the media or their
21 staffs?
22 A Any member of the media?
133
1 Q Correct.
2 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
3 THE WITNESS: All of the time I was
4 at the White House?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
7 THE WITNESS: That is a broad
8 question. You want me to start with
9 categories?
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Just start with categories.
12 A The categories of information that
13 we would fax to the press or release to the
14 press?
15 Q Deliver in any manner, shape or
16 form: Fax, letters, hand delivery?
17 A The categories of information would
18 be the statement that I would make on behalf
19 of the White House that was sometimes, not
20 always, a written sentence or two, paragraph;
21 backup documents that we had released to the
22 press pertaining to the statement; newspapers
134
1 clips, clippings, published newspaper reports
2 that we would usually get from NEXIS or from
3 the newspaper pertaining to the issue that we
4 were addressing.
5 I think that is about the
6 categories of what we would make available to
7 the press.
8 Q This all came out of your office at
9 the White House, White House counsel's
10 office?
11 A You asked me what I did, and what I
12 did came out of my office.
13 Q You are aware of others delivering
14 materials to persons outside of the White
15 House concerning the controversies; correct?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know who you
18 mean by "others" and I don't know what you
19 mean by "materials."
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Other people in White House
22 counsel's office also sent materials to
135
1 persons outside of the White House concerning
2 Clinton controversies?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What other persons?
5 A That I am personally aware of?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Certainly Chess Johnson and
8 certainly Adam Goldberg, my two deputies;
9 probably Brian Smith, Lanny Breuer's deputy.
10 That is about all that I am aware of.
11 Q Tell us all of the media that these
12 materials were sent to, that you can
13 recollect?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
16 relevance.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Media or others?
19 A I will give you categories. I
20 don't think you want to spend the time going
21 through the individuals.
22 Q I may.
136
1 A Television broadcast news
2 organizations, radio broadcast news
3 organizations, print and newspapers news
4 organizations, and I think those would be the
5 three categories.
6 Q Did you just name all of the people
7 in the White House counsel's office that, to
8 the best of your recollection, were
9 responsible for sending materials to persons
10 outside of the White House concerning the
11 Clinton controversies?
12 A Could you repeat what you just
13 asked me?
14 Q Did you just name in the White
15 House counsel's office all of the persons who
16 participated in sending terms to persons
17 outside of the White House involving the
18 Clinton controversies?
19 A My previous answer was about the
20 news organizations. Are you asking about the
21 answer before?
22 Q Yes.
137
1 A When I mentioned the names of
2 people?
3 Q Yes.
4 A I was only telling you who I was
5 aware of who were part of my operation in
6 making available to news organizations
7 information that they requested or which we
8 wished to make available to them.
9 I don't know about others, because
10 I am only -- I was only aware of those.
11 Q You are aware that others in the
12 White House, outside of the White House
13 counsel's office, also disseminated materials
14 to persons and entities outside of the White
15 House?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A I am aware, because I read that in
20 the newspapers. I was not personally aware
21 of that while I was at the White House.
22 Q You did have contact from time to
138
1 time with Mr. Blumenthal while you worked at
2 the White House, correct?
3 A I certainly did.
4 Q What was Mr. Blumenthal's position
5 when you worked at the White House?
6 A I don't know his title.
7 Q What were his duties and
8 responsibilities, to the best of your
9 knowledge?
10 A I believe he acted as an advisor to
11 the President.
12 Q As part of his duties and
13 responsibilities, it was to interact with
14 media, correct?
15 A I am not sure that is -- I believe
16 he did that. I am not sure that those were
17 his duties and responsibilities.
18 Q You are aware that Paul Begala also
19 interacted with media during the period you
20 were with the White House?
21 A I was aware of that while I was
22 with the White House.
139
1 Q You are aware Ann Lewis interacted
2 with media?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Rahm Emanuel?
5 A Absolutely.
6 Q Others?
7 A I don't know what you mean by
8 others. I assume Mike McCurry interacted
9 with the press.
10 Q You are aware these individuals,
11 Blumenthal, Begala, Lewis, Emanuel, from time
12 to time disseminated materials from the White
13 House to persons or entities outside of the
14 White House?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: I already answered
18 that question already. But while I was at
19 the White House, I was not specifically aware
20 of their doing so. It would not surprise me
21 that they had done so.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
140
1 Q Since you left the White House,
2 have there been any of the persons that I
3 just mentioned, Blumenthal, Begala, Lewis,
4 Emanuel, who have sent you materials?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevancy,
6 form, compound.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Has there been anyone at the White
10 House, other than the persons that I named
11 and who you previously named, that sent you
12 materials since you left?
13 A I forget who I previously named.
14 Q If you duplicate, we won't penalize
15 you.
16 A My specific memory is that Chess
17 Johnson, Brian Smith, and Adam Goldberg have
18 sent me materials that I have requested that
19 were publicly disclosed materials. That was
20 the specific criteria that I would use on the
21 requesting materials, only published or
22 public materials or newspaper articles from
141
1 NEXIS that were already published. Those
2 would be the three people.
3 Did I say Brian Smith?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Jim Kennedy was the other one that
6 I specifically remember. Besides that, Aurie
7 (phonetic) Anderson from the press office or
8 whoever answered the phone when I wanted a
9 transcript of the McCurry briefing.
10 Q How do you define "public
11 materials"?
12 A Something that was released to the
13 press or made available to the press.
14 Q So if a document was classified,
15 even if it was released illegally it would
16 then become public material?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, hypothetical
18 question.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Is that your definition?
142
1 A It is not my definition. I don't
2 know.
3 Q If a document was taken from a
4 personnel file, as long as it was released to
5 the public it was then a public document?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, hypothetical
7 question, lack of foundation.
8 THE WITNESS: Ask the question
9 again.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q If a document was taken from the
12 personnel file of a White House employee or
13 past employee, if it had subsequently been
14 made public, it would then qualify as a
15 public document?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Under your definition?
19 A My definition of a public document
20 is something released to the public, made
21 available to the news media. That is as far
22 as I would go.
143
1 Q Regardless of whether it was legal
2 to do so?
3 A I certainly --
4 MR. MILLS: Consult with me,
5 please.
6 (Witness conferred with counsel)
7 THE WITNESS: As I said earlier, I
8 don't share your definition of what is legal
9 or illegal. If I knew something was illegal
10 and it was illegally shared with the press, I
11 would still call that a public document, but
12 I might come to a conclusion about its
13 legality or illegality.
14 But I am not aware of any documents
15 that I ever received that were illegally
16 released to the press.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you ever done any kind of
19 legal analysis, or has anyone else to the
20 best of your knowledge, as to whether the
21 release of the Kathleen Willey letters was
22 illegal?
144
1 MR. MILLS: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: I have never done any
3 legal analysis on that, no.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Do you know of anyone else who has?
6 A I do not.
7 Q Have you ever received information
8 from the White House or any other source in
9 the Clinton administration concerning Linda
10 Tripp?
11 A Would you repeat the question?
12 Q Have you received information from
13 the White House since you left, or any other
14 source in the Clinton administration,
15 concerning Linda Tripp?
16 A Since I left the White House? I
17 might have.
18 Q Who did you receive it from?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
20 THE WITNESS: I might have received
21 some press clippings concerning the Newsweek
22 story on Linda Tripp and Kathleen Willey from
145
1 someone in the White House.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Do you know who?
4 A I can't be sure.
5 Q Who did you receive it from?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
7 THE WITNESS: You just asked me
8 that.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Do you have any idea as to who you
11 may have received it from?
12 A I could guess among the four that I
13 mentioned to you, it would be one of those
14 four.
15 Q Have you ever received information
16 from any agency of the Clinton administration
17 other than the White House concerning Linda
18 Tripp?
19 A No.
20 Q Same question with regard to
21 Kathleen Willey?
22 A No.
146
1 Q Have you received information from
2 any source in the Clinton administration,
3 other than the White House with regard to any
4 other matters, since you left the White
5 House?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
8 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question,
9 please?
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Have you received information from
12 any other agency other than the White House,
13 in the Clinton administration since you left
14 the White House employment?
15 A On any subject?
16 Q On any subject.
17 MR. MILLS: Objection to the extent
18 that it invades into Mr. Davis's private
19 legal practice.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not interested
21 in his representation of actual legal
22 clients.
147
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q In the context of making efforts on
3 behalf of the Clinton administration or any
4 other venue?
5 A The answer is no.
6 Q When you referred to the press
7 clippings, does that include documents
8 released to the media concerning Linda Tripp?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
10 vague.
11 MR. MILLS: Okay, ambiguous.
12 THE WITNESS: What is the question
13 again?
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q When you referred to the release of
16 press clippings, it referred in part to Linda
17 Tripp?
18 A What release of press clippings?
19 Q When the White House sent you
20 materials after you left?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
22 answered.
148
1 THE WITNESS: The only thing I
2 specifically remember receiving about Linda
3 Tripp, but it could have been other press
4 clippings, I'm not sure, was a request for
5 the Newsweek story, I believe in July or
6 August of 1997 that first referenced what
7 Linda Tripp said about Kathleen Willey. I
8 don't think I asked for anything else, but I
9 can't be sure.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You said when you were with the
12 White House, you sent things to Michael
13 Zelden, you or people on your behalf?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What specifically was sent to
16 Michael Zelden?
17 A I think I said this before, but I
18 will be happy to say it again: Whatever we
19 had put out as a public statement or
20 documents released to the press, on the topic
21 of the day or topic of the week, that might
22 be the basis of a program that Michael was
149
1 appearing on, he would call and say what have
2 you guys said today or put out today? The
3 very same question I ask currently. I would
4 fax him the public statement that we just
5 handed out to press.
6 Q Did you ever send him what you
7 defined as public documents?
8 A Could we go off the record?
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
10 video record at 12:24.
11 (Discussion off the record)
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
13 record at 12:26.
14 THE WITNESS: You were asking me
15 something about Mr. Zelden, and I forgot.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Was there anything sent to him
18 which was a public document, which was not
19 just a standard press statement for the day?
20 A In the categories that I previously
21 mentioned to you, it is possible, yes.
22 Q Was it the policy of the White
150
1 House counsel's office, when you worked
2 there, to send documents to anybody who
3 requested them?
4 A Yes.
5 Q These kind of documents?
6 A It was my policy. I can't speak
7 for others.
8 Q If somebody like Larry Klayman or
9 Ken Starr called you, you would have readily
10 sent us the same documents that you sent to
11 Mike Zelden?
12 A I think I may have sent you
13 something I am not sure. I did not
14 discriminate on basis of political views or
15 ideology or anything. Sometimes I would not
16 bother if I thought the person was somewhat
17 unbalanced, and that would be my only
18 criteria.
19 Q You don't include me in that
20 category?
21 A I do not.
22 Q You don't agree that I am a
151
1 lunatic?
2 A I do not.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I was called that
5 last night on Geraldo by the White House. I
6 was just curious.
7 MR. MILLS: Nevertheless, the
8 objection stands.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Now, what documents were sent to
11 Stan Gildenhorn?
12 A Same type of documents. He did
13 appearances -- does appearances on the same
14 subjects that I now do. He is a very close
15 personal friend of mine. I solicited his
16 help in making these appearances. I imagine
17 he was getting the same kind of material that
18 I get.
19 Q Rich Goodstein?
20 A Same answer.
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video record
22 at 12:27.
152
1 (Discussion off the record)
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
3 record at 12:29.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q With regard to all of the persons
6 that you mentioned, whether it was Zelden,
7 Goodstein, Gildenhorn, Vic Camber, members of
8 the media, members of TV shows, can you
9 remember anything specific that you sent to
10 one of them that was not sent to the others?
11 A I can't. I did mention -- I did
12 not mention Vic Camber. I don't remember
13 ever accepted go information to Vic Camber.
14 But no, I think it was a general, whatever
15 they asked for, I sent.
16 Q After you left the White House,
17 have you ever sent materials to anyone or any
18 person or entity that does commentary
19 favorable to the Clinton administration?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You can respond.
153
1 A Since I left the White House?
2 Q Yes.
3 A I may have.
4 Q Who?
5 A I think I may have sent -- I
6 actually can't remember that I ever did.
7 Q Any feeling perhaps you sent
8 materials to Mike Zelden?
9 A I don't remember. I don't think
10 so.
11 Q During the period you worked in the
12 White House?
13 A Excuse me, Stan Gildenhorn I think
14 I faxed some newspaper clips or something,
15 maybe.
16 Q During the period you worked at the
17 White House, did you keep the phone numbers
18 of these individuals, or did anyone else in
19 the White House counsel's office?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague,
21 compound.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
154
1 Q Zelden, Goodstein, Gildenhorn?
2 A I have phone numbers in my little
3 pocket computer for all of those people, yes.
4 Q Did others in the White House
5 counsel's office keep the numbers of those
6 individuals?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form,
8 relevancy.
9 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't know.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Does the White House press office
12 keep a list of persons who frequently give
13 commentary favorable to the Clinton
14 administration?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
16 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q During the period you were in the
19 White House, did you ever send materials to
20 the Democratic National Committee?
21 A I can't recall. I don't think so.
22 Q Did the Democratic national
155
1 Committee ever send materials to you during
2 the period you were in the White House?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What did they send to you?
5 A I would sometimes get copies of
6 their daily talking points during the
7 campaign finance hearings. They put out a --
8 some kind of a bulletin or newsletter type of
9 thing at the end of everyday during the
10 campaign finance hearings. I remember
11 getting those regularly. I think I was on
12 their fax list.
13 Q Do you know whether they have sent
14 materials to anyone else in the White House
15 while you were there, they meaning the DNC?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
17 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you for
18 sure. It wouldn't surprise me if they had.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q In and around the time that the
21 Kathleen Willey letters were released, are
22 you aware of anyone who had discussions in
156
1 the White House or outside of the White House
2 concerning release of those letters?
3 A Repeat the question, please?
4 Q During the period in and around the
5 time Kathleen Willey's letters were released
6 to the media, do you know if anyone either
7 inside the White House or outside of the
8 White House had discussed whether or not
9 those letters should be released?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
11 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of
12 the discussions on that topic, no.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Did you ever have discussions with
15 Carville about that?
16 A No.
17 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
18 A No.
19 Q Are you aware that the President
20 had a discussion with him about releasing
21 those letters?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
157
1 facts not in evidence.
2 THE WITNESS: I remember reading
3 that in the newspaper, I think. That was the
4 occasion, that whether they should respond to
5 her Sixty Minutes performance. I think I
6 read in the newspaper that Mr. Carville said
7 he talked to the President about that.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Have you or anyone else ever had
10 discussions about the release of information
11 contained in Linda Tripp's Pentagon file?
12 A Repeat the question.
13 Q Have you or anyone else ever had
14 discussions about the release of information
15 in Linda Tripp's Pentagon file?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
17 THE WITNESS: About published
18 reports about that, yes.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Who did you have discussions with
21 about that?
22 A Jim Kennedy, Lanny Breuer, that is
158
1 all, I think that is about all.
2 Q The discussions occurred after you
3 left the White House?
4 A As I just said, after the published
5 reports about the episode, which would have
6 been after I left the White House.
7 Q What was discussed with
8 Mr. Kennedy?
9 A Do we have any information about
10 whether the White House was aware of the
11 decision to release the information to Jane
12 Mayer, is one of the questions I asked
13 Kennedy.
14 Q He called you or you called him?
15 A I called him.
16 Q Did you have any meetings where
17 this was discussed?
18 A I was about to go on a television
19 program and I called him and said have you
20 released anything to the press in answer to
21 the question which I am going to be asked
22 tonight: Did the White House know or
159
1 influence the decision to release information
2 to Ms. Mayer? His answer was no.
3 Q Did he say anything else?
4 A What are you guys putting out on
5 this? I asked him. Have you put anything
6 out on this? He said that he was answering
7 press inquiries, that what the White House
8 had no knowledge of or involvement with the
9 decision to release that information, and
10 then that I could say that safely on a
11 television program because that is what the
12 press was being told.
13 Q Did you ask Mr. Kennedy how he came
14 to know that the White House had no
15 involvement in the release of Tripp's
16 information from the Pentagon?
17 A No.
18 Q You didn't want to know?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, no
20 foundation.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Form, objection to
22 form.
160
1 THE WITNESS: I think I would have
2 wanted to know, but I didn't think of asking.
3 I was in his position. I know how you sort
4 of get to find things out in the White House.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q How is that? How do you get to
7 find out things in the White House?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
10 THE WITNESS: I would go to
11 Mr. Breuer and ask him the question I was
12 being asked by the press. Mr. Breuer would
13 then get me the answer.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Did you frequently know how he
16 would get the answer?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How was that?
19 A He would assign one of his
20 attorneys on the investigation team to ask
21 the individuals who might have the
22 information that I would need to know to
161
1 answer a press inquiry.
2 Q Did you then find out who that
3 attorney, that was assigned, spoke with
4 before he would get the information?
5 A Not always.
6 Q Sometimes?
7 A Sometimes.
8 Q Did you ever ask for proof that
9 what you were being told was true?
10 A Yes.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You did?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What kind of proof?
16 A If I felt any uncertainty, or it
17 was very important to me because I thought
18 the story was a major story and was worth it,
19 I would ask to see the underlying documents
20 and sometimes I would talk to -- ask to speak
21 to the individuals involved.
22 Q In this instance with Ms. Tripp,
162
1 you didn't ask for any underlying documents
2 to prove the White House had no involvement?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous,
4 this instance.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q The discussion with Mr. Kennedy?
7 A No, I was no longer at the White
8 House. I didn't ask that question.
9 Q Your discussion with Lanny Breuer
10 about the release of the Tripp information
11 from the Pentagon, who called who?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
13 foundation, form.
14 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I
15 said I specifically remember talking to
16 Breuer. Did I say that?
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Yes, you did.
19 A I know I talked to Kennedy and I
20 think I asked Breuer the same question I
21 asked Kennedy.
22 Q What did Breuer tell you?
163
1 A The same answer.
2 Q So basically you just got a denial,
3 you didn't get any underlying facts?
4 A Correct.
5 Q You didn't ask for the underlying
6 facts?
7 A I did not.
8 Q Why did you call those two
9 individuals concerning this issue?
10 A I was trying to prepare for the
11 television program that I was supposed to be
12 on and I wanted to get the public facts that
13 the White House had released to the press on
14 the subject, or the statements that they were
15 making to the press on that subject, so that
16 I could be accurate.
17 Q We can take lunch break at this
18 time. Take an hour?
19 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
20 video record at 12:39.
21 (Whereupon, at 12:39 p.m., a
22 luncheon recess was taken.)
164
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (1:45 p.m.)
3 Whereupon,
4 LANNY J. DAVIS
5 was recalled as a witness and, having been
6 previously duly sworn, was examined and
7 testified further as follows:
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
9 record at 1:45 p.m.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Mr. Davis, you are still under oath
12 here?
13 A Yes.
14 Q During the period that you worked
15 in the White House, tell me what contact, if
16 any, you had with James Carville?
17 A I think you asked me that once
18 before, and I believe I answered. I will
19 answer now again, I think I talked to him
20 once or twice on the telephone.
21 Q What did you talk to him about?
22 A I think I previously said, and I
165
1 will answer again, that I talked to him about
2 the current issue involving campaign finance,
3 that was the issue of the week or day. I
4 forget what the issue was.
5 Q Did you send him any documents?
6 A I can't remember, but I am pretty
7 sure I didn't.
8 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
9 A I am not aware of anyone who did.
10 Q During the period that you were at
11 the White House, did you ever have an
12 opportunity to speak with George
13 Stephanopoulos?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Was he still working at the White
16 House during some of the time that you were
17 there?
18 A A small portion of the time.
19 Q Let's talk about that time first.
20 What did you talk to him about during that
21 period?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Object. I think you
166
1 can try to establish the general subject
2 matter of the conversation, but otherwise we
3 are going to instruct him not to testify as
4 to substance.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q All of your conversations in the
7 White House are not covered by
8 attorney-client privilege, are they, when you
9 are there?
10 A I will have to rely on attorney
11 advice.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Is it your position that if you ask
15 for a hamburger in the White House mess, that
16 that is covered by attorney-client privilege?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Calls for
18 a legal conclusion.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: He is a lawyer.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: He is not defending
21 the deposition. I will make the privilege
22 calls, not him.
167
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm very impressed,
2 but I am asking him the question.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, hypothetical
4 question. It calls for a legal conclusion.
5 I join in the government's objection.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Would you respond?
8 A Would you repeat the question?
9 Q Is it your position that anything
10 you ever said in the White House was covered
11 by an attorney-client privilege?
12 A No.
13 Q What types of communications, in
14 your opinion, were not covered by an
15 attorney-client privilege?
16 A Social conversations.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q How do you define the
20 attorney-client privilege, based on your
21 experience?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, calls for
168
1 legal conclusion.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
3 THE WITNESS: How do I personally
4 define it based on my experience, is that
5 your question?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Yes.
8 A When I am advising a client on
9 matters of law.
10 Q Did you ever have any conversations
11 with Mr. Stephanopoulos on matters other than
12 advising him on matters of law, while he was
13 at the White House?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What did you discuss?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: I still object. I
17 didn't assert attorney-client privilege
18 before. I objected to him testifying to the
19 substance of the conversation.
20 You could ask the general subject
21 matter so you could identify whether the
22 privilege is appropriate.
169
1 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't cut him off
2 on grounds of relevancy. We've been through
3 that with the court many times.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: I asserted privilege.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: What privilege are
6 you asserting?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Presidential
8 communication potentially. You need to
9 identify what the subjects are about.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: That's all I'm asking
11 him to do is identify the subject and we will
12 take it from there.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: That was not the
14 question on the table. Ask him that
15 question.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q What did you talk to him about?
18 That is the subject.
19 A What subject did I talk to him
20 about?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer the
22 general subject matter, not the specifics of
170
1 the conversation.
2 THE WITNESS: The general subject
3 that I talked to him about was campaign
4 finance issues.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did you discuss with him the
7 release of information from the White House
8 about campaign finance issues?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer that
10 specific question, but nothing else with
11 respect to conversations.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: You know, you are
13 messing up my questions. The question is
14 pending. Obviously that is all he answers.
15 He is an experienced litigator. You have to
16 gum up the record with those type of
17 objections.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I am entitled to a
19 certain objection and I need to assert
20 privilege.
21 THE WITNESS: You need to repeat
22 the question.
171
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Read it back. This
2 is what happens when you make those kind of
3 nonsensical objections.
4 (The reporter read the record as
5 requested.)
6 THE WITNESS: I can't remember what
7 I specifically talked to him about. I can
8 remember the general subject area was I was
9 pretty new at the White House and I talked to
10 him about the overall campaign finance issue.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q At what period of time do you
13 remember George Stephanopoulos left the White
14 House?
15 A I was trying to remember when you
16 asked me earlier. I remember him being there
17 while I was there, I remember it was only a
18 short period of time. It certainly was in
19 December, maybe into January. I can't
20 remember.
21 Q Since he left the White House
22 during the period that you were at the White
172
1 House, did you have any discussions with
2 Mr. Stephanopoulos?
3 A Once in awhile.
4 Q About how many times?
5 A Half a dozen.
6 Q Did you ever meet with him during
7 that period?
8 A I think I passed him in the hallway
9 once in the White House and that was all. I
10 never had a formal meeting with him, or
11 informal meeting with him, other than that
12 occasion.
13 Q What were the general subject
14 matters of the conversations you had with
15 Mr. Stephanopoulos after he left the White
16 House?
17 A They were always about a specific
18 issue relating to campaign finance that had
19 been in the newspapers, that was current. I
20 think quite similar to what I would do when I
21 was ready to go on television, he would call
22 me up and say what has the White House put
173
1 out? What can you tell me that you have told
2 the press?
3 Q Of course he asked you to send to
4 him what the White House put out.
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes fact
6 not in evidence, no foundation. Objection on
7 relevance, not relevant to the subject matter
8 of this litigation.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I will give you a
10 running objection to this. You can respond.
11 THE WITNESS: Did I send him
12 anything? I don't think I did. I am pretty
13 sure I did not.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q During the period you were in the
16 White House, did you send any information to
17 Salon magazine?
18 A No.
19 Q Or persons associated with Salon,
20 such as John Broder, Mary Wass, Joe Connison,
21 Jean Lyons?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, compound.
174
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You can respond.
3 MR. MILLS: Relevancy.
4 THE WITNESS: You say associated
5 with Salon magazine?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Persons that write for Salon?
8 A Mr. Connison I sent some material
9 to, but I didn't know he was associated with
10 Salon magazine at the time.
11 Q You thought he was associated with
12 the New York Observer at the time?
13 A Correct, I faxed material to the
14 New York Observer.
15 Q What did you send to Mr. Connison?
16 A I was expecting that. I am trying
17 to remember. It was pretty shortly before I
18 left. Let me think for a second. It is on
19 the tip of my tongue.
20 I may remember it if you jog my
21 memory, but I can't remember. It was some
22 piece he was working on and he asked me to
175
1 send him some of the statements I had made or
2 some of the press comments we had offered up
3 on the subject. But I really forget the
4 subject.
5 Q Did he ask you to send any
6 documents, other than press statements?
7 A No. Usually I would get: What
8 have you guys been saying about? He called
9 me about that. I remember faxing him some
10 material, but I don't remember what it was
11 about.
12 Q Do you remember the subject matter
13 of his piece, what it was about?
14 A It might hit me. It is real close,
15 but I am just not there.
16 Q Did it relate to campaign finance?
17 A I think so. It may have related to
18 the independent counsel issue, whether
19 independent counsel should be appointed or
20 not. I am guessing.
21 Q Did you play any role in
22 recommending Janet Reno for the job of
176
1 attorney general?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Attorney objection,
4 objection to form also.
5 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you play any role in
8 recommending Janet Reno for the job of
9 attorney general in the Clinton
10 administration?
11 A I don't think recommend would be
12 accurate.
13 Q What would be a better phrase?
14 A I was a chief of the vetting team
15 that was put together to look into her
16 background. I made a report about the
17 results of our investigation.
18 Q Do you know of anyone, excluding
19 yourself, that sent information to Salon
20 magazine or persons who write for Salon
21 magazine while you were at the White House?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
177
1 THE WITNESS: Who sent information?
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Yes.
4 A Not that I am aware of. Not that I
5 am certain about, anyway.
6 Q Did you ever send any documentation
7 to New York Magazine while you were at the
8 White House?
9 A New York Magazine? I don't believe
10 so.
11 Q The New Yorker?
12 A The New Yorker? If Peter Boyer --
13 my best recollection is that Peter Boyer of
14 the New Yorker was working on a story, I
15 believe, about the Lums, and I may have sent
16 Peter Boyer some information about what we
17 had put out about a business week story
18 concerning the Lums.
19 Q Did you send him any underlying
20 documentation?
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
178
1 A No.
2 Q Do you know a Jane Mayer?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Reporter with The New Yorker?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When did you first meet Jane Mayer?
7 A Sometime in the middle of my tenure
8 at the White House.
9 Q How did you come to meet her?
10 A She called me, asked me some
11 questions, I believe, on one of the campaign
12 finance stories. We talked, exchanged
13 pleasantries. She said would you ever like
14 to have lunch? I said absolutely, and we had
15 lunch a couple of times.
16 Q When, approximately, did you have
17 these conversations, the initial
18 conversations?
19 A I am guessing like the middle point
20 of my tenure. So that would be probably the
21 summer of '97, somewhere in there.
22 Q Did you discuss anything of
179
1 substance with her during that telephone
2 call?
3 A I don't know what you mean by of
4 substance.
5 Q Did you discuss anything about the
6 campaign finance scandal or other Clinton
7 controversies?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous.
9 You used the word cancel.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q I am sorry, controversy.
12 A I think she called me about one of
13 the stories that was current for that week or
14 that month, whatever triggered it was
15 something that was current, yes. I don't
16 remember specifically what she was calling
17 about. The subject matter would have been
18 the campaign finance.
19 Q When you had lunch with her on a
20 couple of occasions, what did you discuss
21 with her?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
180
1 THE WITNESS: We talked about the
2 handling of the campaign finance story, the
3 strategy that I was following. So it was
4 more a tactical strategy issue that she was
5 interested in than it was substantive, the
6 stories themselves.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Did you ever send any materials to
9 Ms. Mayer while you were at the White House?
10 A I am pretty sure I never did.
11 Q Do you know of anyone who ever did?
12 A I don't know of anyone who did.
13 Q Based on your experience at the
14 White House, Jane Mayer is thought of as a
15 friend of the Clinton administration at the
16 White House?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy,
18 vague, form.
19 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the
20 general perception is of Jane Mayer by other
21 people.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
181
1 Q You never became aware of that?
2 A No.
3 Q You are aware she is a friend of
4 Sidney Blumenthal, are you not?
5 A I wasn't aware of that.
6 Q Did you attend a reception at the
7 White House in the last few weeks for Mandy
8 Grunwald?
9 A No, was there a reception for Mandy
10 Grunwald? Why was I not invited?
11 Q Want to retain me we can find out?
12 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
13 (Witness conferred with counsel)
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Have you read reports that Miss
16 Mayer attended that reception?
17 A No.
18 Q Based upon your experience of
19 working in the White House, are there certain
20 reporters that are considered to be adverse
21 to administration in the media?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague.
182
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
2 relevancy.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You may answer.
5 A Not in my judgment.
6 Q Sue Schmidt of The Washington Post?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection form.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't believe she
9 has a particular hostility to the White
10 House.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You don't, but is it the opinion of
13 those at the White House that she does based
14 on your experience?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: I read newspaper
18 reports that there are people who believe
19 that she is somewhat hostile to the White
20 House, yes.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Were you privy to any
183
1 conversations, when you were at the White
2 House, where Miss Schmidt was being
3 criticized for her report?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, privilege
5 objection.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You may respond.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Who took part in those
11 conversations?
12 A I can't remember specifically who
13 took part. I can tell you generally that if
14 there were a newspaper article published in
15 the newspaper by a reporter that we thought
16 was inaccurate or unfair, we would talk about
17 it and there were occasions I, as well as
18 others, thought that Ms. Schmidt wrote an
19 unfair or inaccurate article. That would be
20 very specific and not a generalized
21 impression of her.
22 Q Were you aware of any attempts to
184
1 complain about Ms. Schmidt while you were at
2 the White House?
3 A Any attempts?
4 Q Any efforts to gather information
5 to use to criticize Ms. Schmidt?
6 A I was asked about that by
7 Ms. Schmidt several times, and I didn't know
8 the answer to that until much later.
9 Q When did you learn the answer?
10 A When I read the book recently.
11 Q What book did you read?
12 A It is called Spin Cycle. I read
13 the narration there, and I think I learned
14 for the first time some of the background of
15 that story.
16 Q Do you have any independent
17 knowledge of that story?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you know of anyone who does
20 other than through the Spin Cycle?
21 A Other than through reading the
22 book, no.
185
1 Q When you were at the White House,
2 did you ever see Miss Mayer visit anyone
3 there?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lacks
5 foundation, form.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 A No.
9 Q Are you aware of her ever having
10 visited the White House?
11 A No.
12 Q During the time that you were at
13 the White House, did you ever discuss Judge
14 Kenneth Starr?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Who did you discuss Judge Starr
17 with?
18 A Regularly, with the -- when there
19 would be something in the news pertaining to
20 Mr. Starr, I would have regular discussions
21 with my normal team of people pertaining to
22 responding to press inquiries concerning our
186
1 response to what Mr. Starr was doing.
2 Q Who were those regular people?
3 A I think I previously mentioned them
4 to you, I will be happy to do it again.
5 Q Yes, let's just identify them here.
6 A That is fine. Mr. Breuer,
7 Mr. Ruff, Adam Goldberg and Chess Johnson and
8 sometimes Cheryl Mills.
9 Q Anyone else?
10 A Sometimes Mike Peckuri.
11 Q Anyone else?
12 A There must have been others, but
13 those are the ones that I remember.
14 Q During the time that you were at
15 the White House, did you ever have any
16 professional doling with Sally Paxton?
17 A Yes.
18 Q In what context?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
20 THE WITNESS: Outside of social?
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q I don't want social, just
187
1 professional.
2 A When I was asked questions about a
3 subject area called the WHODB senate stories,
4 I was told early on in my tenure that
5 Ms. Paxton was the lawyer responsible for
6 answering that story and I would refer the
7 questions over to her and she would work with
8 another person in the press office to respond
9 to the press inquiries.
10 Q When you worked at the White House,
11 was there someone who was assigned to press
12 inquiries on each subject that was in the
13 public domain?
14 A I believe the answer to that is
15 yes, but I am not sure, because I was not
16 intimately familiar with the press system. I
17 knew that there were certain subjects I was
18 responsible for handling. If I would get a
19 question about something outside of those
20 subjects, I would either refer it over to the
21 press office or seek guidance from Mr. Breuer
22 as to whether I should respond.
188
1 Q Did you ever make any public
2 statements with regard to WHODB?
3 A I don't believe I did. I think I
4 referred those statements to somebody in the
5 press office who was responsible for speaking
6 for that issue.
7 Q Did you ever discuss WHODB in the
8 context of Filegate?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q With anyone?
12 A Explain to me what you mean by in
13 the context of Filegate. That is a vague
14 expression.
15 Q Did you ever have any discussion
16 whether the WHODB computer was used to house
17 information from FBI files?
18 A I never had a discussion about
19 that.
20 Q Do you know of anyone who has?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you ever have a discussion with
189
1 anyone as to how WHODB was used for political
2 purposes?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, lack of
4 foundation.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 A Did I ever have a discussion with
8 anyone as to whether WHODB was used for
9 political purposes? I believe I did.
10 Q Who did you have that discussion
11 with?
12 A I think I may have talked to
13 Ms. Paxton about that once or twice, and
14 Mr. Toiv about it, certainly more than once
15 or twice.
16 Q Would you ever make any public
17 statements to the media about whether or not
18 WHODB was used for political purposes?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague.
20 Political purposes.
21 THE WITNESS: I remember a couple
22 of occasions when Mr. Toiv was not around,
190
1 either ill or on vacation, where I had to
2 respond on behalf of the White House on the
3 WHODB issue.
4 I think I remember actually doing
5 so and then turning it right back over to
6 Mr. Toiv for the follow up. So I think there
7 is a possibility I did.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Who was Mr. Toiv's? What was his
10 position at the time?
11 A I believe he was either a deputy
12 White House press secretary or one of the
13 assistants to Mr. McCurry.
14 Q But, bottom line is, if the press
15 secretary needed information on WHODB, it was
16 your understanding that that press secretary
17 should go to Ms. Paxton?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
19 facts not in evidence.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A It was my understanding that
191
1 Ms. Paxton was the attorney responsible for
2 handling the WHODB issue. I don't know -- I
3 can't answer the specific question you just
4 asked me, though.
5 Q Were there any other attorneys
6 responsible for handling the WHODB issue?
7 A That is what I don't know. I am
8 not aware of any others, but I can't tell you
9 there weren't any others.
10 Q What other issues, if any, was
11 Ms. Paxton responsible for handling when you
12 were at the White House?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You can respond.
17 A I believe when this lawsuit was
18 filed, that Ms. Paxton was assigned the
19 responsibility of monitoring or being
20 involved in the legal aspects of it.
21 Q Anything else?
22 A When I first arrived at the White
192
1 House and I met Ms. Paxton, I believe she was
2 still involved with Mr. Breuer's predecessor,
3 James Sherburne and some of the Whitewater
4 issues.
5 Q Anything else?
6 A I can't think of anything else.
7 Q Did you ever go to Ms. Paxton with
8 regard to this lawsuit, Alexander versus FBI
9 when you were at the White House?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, intrudes on
11 attorney-client privilege.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not asking what
13 was the underlying discussion.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q I am asking did you ever consult
16 with Ms. Paxton concerning this particular
17 lawsuit you are here on today?
18 A Did you say when I was at the White
19 House?
20 Q Yes.
21 A No, I did not.
22 Q Did you ever seek any consultation
193
1 with her to be able to comment on issues
2 related to Filegate?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q Did you go to anyone in the White
5 House to get information on Filegate while
6 you were there?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lacks
8 foundation, mischaracterizes.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I
10 did.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You are not sure?
13 MR. MILLS: Consult with the
14 witness.
15 (Witness conferred with counsel)
16 THE WITNESS: I can't be certain of
17 never talking to anybody about any subject in
18 the White House. Anything could come up. I
19 wouldn't remember it.
20 But to the best of my recollection,
21 I never talked to anyone about this file
22 issue which occurred before my time and was
194
1 not on my plate in terms of my
2 responsibilities.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Now, with regard to Ken Starr,
5 during the period that you were at the White
6 House, was there an effort in the White House
7 counsel's office or any other office to clip
8 press articles about Judge Ken Starr?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know the
12 answer to that. Not that I was aware of. I
13 know what I did myself, but I am not aware
14 ever what others.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q What did you do yourself?
17 A My common practice for everything
18 was to follow a story that was being written
19 that I might have to comment on. By follow,
20 I mean I would tear out from the White House
21 press clips that I would get every morning
22 any story that related to a story that I
195
1 might be working on, so in case I got a
2 question there would be an easy way to look
3 for some recent press clips about it.
4 I didn't have a secretary. I had
5 to do all of this myself.
6 I believe that is what I did about
7 Mr. Starr. Whenever there was a story that I
8 might be involved in commenting upon, or
9 responsible for.
10 Q You would clip that story?
11 A I would tear out a newspaper
12 article that I read that might pertain to
13 something that was current about Mr. Starr,
14 that I might be required to comment on, and I
15 would put it in the folder with his name on
16 it.
17 Q In that folder, you would also put
18 other documents that might relate to
19 Mr. Starr, anything related to him?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, no
21 foundation.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: You may respond.
196
1 MR. MILLS: Assumes facts not in
2 evidence. Mr. Klayman, will you allow me to
3 get my objection on the record, before you
4 say tell the witness he may respond.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You may respond.
7 A My recollection is that I was
8 fairly eclectic in my judgments as to what to
9 put in the file because I was on my own
10 without a secretary. I tried to be
11 selective.
12 What I would generally throw in
13 there would be anything that we were working
14 on that had lead to a story. It might be in,
15 in the case of Mr. Starr, it might be a
16 newspaper clip. It might have been a comment
17 that I made that was published in a newspaper
18 article. It might have been a statement that
19 Mr. Ruff made about Mr. Starr. That is about
20 all I can remember.
21 Q So anything that was relevant, you
22 put in that folder?
197
1 MR. MILLS: Objection,
2 mischaracterizes testimony.
3 THE WITNESS: Relevance would be a
4 little bit too broad a term.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Anything that you might need to use
7 at some point?
8 A That is closer to it, that I might
9 need to refer to, if I were asked about the
10 particular story that I was concerned about.
11 I followed stories that were written,
12 newspaper stories, circulars. Some newspaper
13 story about Mr. Starr, my decision to throw
14 it into the file would relate to that
15 particular story.
16 Q As part of your duties and
17 responsibilities in covering the campaign
18 finance scandal, you kept a similar file
19 concerning Senator Thompson's hearings?
20 A Yes.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
198
1 Q You kept a file labeled Senator
2 Thompson?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
4 facts not in evidence. Leading.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 A I think it was labeled Thompson
8 committee or committee hearings, one of those
9 two. I was not concerned about Senator
10 Thompson personally, at all, just the
11 Committee hearings.
12 Q In that file, you would put
13 materials related to those hearings?
14 A Correct.
15 Q In that file, you would put
16 materials related to the Senators that sat on
17 that committee?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague,
19 immaterial, undefined.
20 THE WITNESS: To go to the word
21 materials again, I am talking about press
22 clippings, public statements. In this case
199
1 it might have been committee transcripts from
2 the days, from the hearings that were
3 published on the Internet. I would often
4 file some portion of the hearings that I
5 might need to refer to that were in the
6 Internet transcripts.
7 But no, I never kept specific
8 individuals Senator files. It was all
9 focused on particular stories written about
10 the hearings.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q But you knew that if you needed
13 something with regard to Senator Thompson's
14 role in those hearings, that is the file you
15 would go to?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, leading,
17 misstates the testimony.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A With about his role?
21 Q Yes.
22 A No, I don't think I never had
200
1 anything like that. But if I were looking
2 for stories that mention Senator Thompson as
3 chairmanship of that committee, it would be
4 in that area, yes.
5 Q You kept a similar file for
6 Congressman Burton?
7 A In exactly the same -- Burton
8 committee/hearings, something like that, yes.
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague with
10 respect to the word "file." I believe that
11 mischaracterizes his testimony.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't do that again
13 or we are going to the court. Certify it.
14 MR. MILLS: I am entitled to put my
15 objections on the record, Mr. Klayman.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You are not entitled
17 to make speaking objections and you are being
18 cautioned, Mr. Mills.
19 MR. MILLS: I am entitled to put on
20 the record the basis of the objections, and
21 to the extent something is vague or ambiguous
22 in your question I am entitled to identify
201
1 that portion of your question as vague or
2 ambiguous and those that forms the foundation
3 for the basis of my objection. That is the
4 rules.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: That is not the
6 rules. You just pushed me over the edge. We
7 will be moving for sanctions.
8 MR. MILLS: Do what you feel you
9 must do, Mr. Klayman, and if we determine
10 that your motion for sanctions is not well
11 taken, we will similarly move for --
12 MR. KLAYMAN: It will be against
13 you, not Mr. Davis.
14 THE WITNESS: What is your
15 question?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Where were these two folders or
18 files, whatever you wanted to call them,
19 kept? These three, Starr, Thompson
20 committee, Burton committee, where were they
21 kept?
22 A I had two places where I kept the
202
1 filings. The current ones which would be
2 month-old stories, right by my files. The
3 rest of the files was in a small file cabinet
4 against the wall.
5 Q What type of a file cabinet is
6 that?
7 A A little gray government stocked
8 file cabinet. Two cabinets high.
9 Q Did anyone help you do the filing?
10 A For most of my tenure at the White
11 House, no. I started to get some help in
12 about the summertime of 1997 from summer
13 interns and then I continued to have interns
14 through the fall and through the end of my
15 tenure.
16 Q Who were some of the interns?
17 A I really forget their names. They
18 were young people of college age who were in
19 the intern program. I am embarrassed to say
20 I can't remember their names. I can remember
21 their first names.
22 Q Now, during the time that you were
203
1 at the White House, these files were kept, or
2 folders, whatever you want to call them, on
3 Kenneth Starr, Thompson committee, Burton
4 Committee? We are just using it by way of
5 example.
6 A Generic subject area would be
7 Mr. Starr and the independent counsel's
8 office activities. I did not keep any file
9 directed at Mr. Starr personally.
10 Q But you did, sometimes, take
11 materials out of those files and send them to
12 people outside of the White House, did you
13 not?
14 A Which files?
15 Q The file concerning Starr?
16 A Did I ever --
17 Q Let him answer the question, it is
18 a simple question.
19 MR. MILLS: I am going to consult
20 with the witness.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: It is a simple
22 question, I object.
204
1 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the
2 question?
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You did sometimes take materials
5 from those files or folders, whatever you
6 call them and send them outside of the White
7 House?
8 A You are talking about Mr. Starr's
9 file?
10 Q Yes.
11 A So your question is did I ever send
12 anything from Mr. Starr's file to anyone
13 outside of the White House?
14 Q Yes.
15 A I can't remember specifically, but
16 honestly, I am sure I did.
17 Q Do you know who you sent them to?
18 A I can't remember. I was always
19 asked for newspaper clips that I might have
20 that other people, in the press, didn't have.
21 Someone would call and ask me for the story
22 on Mr. Starr, and I might have sent out
205
1 another newspaper article.
2 I believe the one reason I
3 hesitated is that we did issue a statement or
4 two about Mr. Starr when I was at the White
5 House, directed to something Mr. Starr had
6 done. I am sure I must have sent that
7 statement out to people who asked for it, and
8 that is why I hesitate in saying I never did.
9 Q Same question with regard to the
10 file that you kept concerning the Thompson
11 committee. You did send materials from that
12 file or folder to persons or entities outside
13 of the White House?
14 A I am sure I did, comments made
15 about Senator Thompson and the committee
16 hearings that we put out to the press I would
17 have sent to a number of people, yes.
18 Q Same question with regard to the
19 Burton committee?
20 A Same answer, comments made that we
21 sent out to the press corps, any written
22 statements in that file I would have sent
206
1 out, yes.
2 Q During the time that you worked at
3 the White House, was it your understanding
4 that it was the practice of other White House
5 counsel to keep files or folders by subject
6 matter on various issues?
7 A That is a safe assumption, yes.
8 Q Were there others in the White
9 House counsel's office that also had files or
10 folders concerning Mr. Starr, correct?
11 A I can't be sure specifically.
12 Q Did you ever get information from
13 someone else in the White House counsel's
14 office that was taken out of the file by
15 subject matter?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague and
18 form.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You can respond.
21 A Repeat the question. It is a
22 pretty general question.
207
1 Q Did you ever go to somebody else in
2 the White House counsel's office and say do
3 you have anything on Mr. Starr in this
4 particular area? Can you provide it to me?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague. This
6 particular area.
7 THE WITNESS: I can't remember ever
8 doing that. I probably did but I just can't
9 specifically remember.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Did you keep a file folder related
12 to Judicial Watch or Larry Klayman?
13 A No, I didn't. Sorry.
14 Q What other files did you keep?
15 A Whatever story was either about to
16 be written or had been written that had some
17 life to it, I would create a file by subject
18 and by date. Then after every month I would
19 clean out the file drawer next to my desk and
20 then start a new month of files.
21 Q What did you do with the files that
22 you cleaned out?
208
1 A I would move them to the file
2 cabinet and then consolidate them by subject
3 and chronology, so I would have current files
4 by my desk and less current files on those
5 same subjects by story, by particular stories
6 that were written in the other file cabinet.
7 Q Where are those files today?
8 A They are at the White House in my
9 old office.
10 Q Who occupies that office?
11 A Jim Kennedy.
12 Q Is there an inventory of those
13 files?
14 A I don't know if there is. You mean
15 a list of all of the file names?
16 Q Yes.
17 A There may well be.
18 Q Did you make such an inventory or
19 list when you were there at White House?
20 A At one point I tried, but I think I
21 gave up. I believe I did.
22 Q When you were at the White House
209
1 you had a computer, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Was it a desktop computer?
4 A It was a desktop computer.
5 Q You left that computer behind?
6 A I left the computer behind.
7 Q Did you make that list or attempt
8 to make that list on that particular
9 computer?
10 A I may have. I don't think so. I
11 think I asked one of my interns to go to my
12 file and write a list of all of the subject
13 areas in the file, and I don't think we ever
14 finished that project. It was one of the
15 many projects that I wanted to finish that I
16 didn't.
17 Q What computer was used by the
18 intern?
19 A There is a little computer on the
20 desk outside of my office that they use.
21 Q Do you know what kind of computer
22 that was?
210
1 A What brand name?
2 Q Yes.
3 A Maybe a Compaq, but I am not sure.
4 Q What kind of computer did you have?
5 A Compaq?
6 A I forget. I am embarrassed to say
7 I forget.
8 Q Do you remember the name of that
9 particular intern?
10 A There were a few. I had like
11 several that would rotate in and out. So
12 there wouldn't have been one. In fact, that
13 was the problem with my idea. I never had
14 enough continuity to finish anything I wanted
15 to do in terms of organizing.
16 Q Was it a man or a woman?
17 A I had a few of them, I had young
18 people, boys and girls. So, I really don't.
19 Q Law students?
20 A Most of them were college age. I
21 don't think any of them were law students.
22 Q When you left the White House, did
211
1 you or anyone else to the best of your
2 knowledge erase anything on your computer?
3 A I never did.
4 Q Do you know the anyone erased
5 anything on the interns computer?
6 A I am certainly not aware of any, I
7 am not aware of any. I doubt it.
8 Q Was it your practice to keep backup
9 disks on the computer?
10 A No.
11 Q Everything was put on the hard
12 drive?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you use a dictaphone when you
15 were at the White House?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you ever record telephone
18 conversations while you were at the White
19 House?
20 A Never.
21 Q Has it ever been your practice?
22 A Never. I live in Maryland. I am
212
1 sorry.
2 Q That is all right.
3 A I am not apologizing to you --
4 Q It is listed in the phone book,
5 right, that you are not supposed to do that.
6 Did you ever use a laptop computer when you
7 were at the White House?
8 A Very rarely. I had a laptop
9 computer that I sometimes brought to the
10 White House for various reasons, especially
11 at the end of my tenure, but I never used the
12 laptop, I used the main computer, I never
13 used the laptop for any White House
14 activities.
15 Q What did you use it for?
16 A At the end of my tenure, when I was
17 sort of winding down and Christmas time, I
18 brought my laptop in and dabbled with the
19 idea of writing a book.
20 Q Did you start writing a book?
21 A I tried to interest publishers in
22 my ideas, but they were not buying.
213
1 Q Don't tell me your literary agent
2 was Lucien Milburn?
3 A No.
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
5 THE WITNESS: No. But that is what
6 I worked on. It was around Christmas '97.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Did you ever use your laptop for
9 political correspondence?
10 A No.
11 Q Is your laptop still in existence,
12 that particular laptop?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you store information on the
15 hard drive of that laptop?
16 A Always.
17 Q Have you ever erased anything from
18 that hard drive?
19 A I don't know how to.
20 Q What kind of laptop is it?
21 A A Toshiba.
22 Q What is the model?
214
1 A Like a three or four year old
2 Toshiba laptop.
3 Q Did you use White House computers
4 ever for preparing correspondence, personal
5 correspondence?
6 A I don't think so. I may have sent
7 a couple of E-mails to friends, but not very
8 often.
9 Q From your computer, did you ever
10 have access to White House databases?
11 A No. No, not that I am aware of.
12 Q Do you know of anyone in the White
13 House counsel's office who could access a
14 White House database?
15 A I wasn't aware of it.
16 Q On his or her computer?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
18 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of
19 that.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Do you know whether or not Bruce
22 Lindsey had access to the WHODB computer
215
1 database?
2 A I do not know.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Have you learned that in the
6 context of this case, other than my just
7 having said that?
8 A I don't think so.
9 Q Let me run through some things.
10 Was there a file that referred or related in
11 any way that you kept concerning Newt
12 Gingrich?
13 A No.
14 Q Do you know of anyone else who kept
15 a file in the White House on Newt Gingrich or
16 related to him?
17 A Not that I am aware of.
18 Q Did you keep any files that
19 referred or related to independent counsel,
20 Donald Smaltz?
21 A I did not.
22 Q Do you know of anyone who?
216
1 A Not that I am aware of.
2 Q Did you keep any files that
3 referred or related in any way to Henry Hyde?
4 A I did not.
5 Q Or the Judiciary Committee in the
6 House?
7 A The files?
8 Q Files or folders, whatever you
9 wanted to call them?
10 A I am not making that distinction.
11 With his name on it, that was about him?
12 Q Or where you knew you could find
13 information about him.
14 A Yes.
15 Q What file did you have on that?
16 A I kept a file on the issue of
17 whether an independent counsel should be
18 appointed because of campaign finance issues.
19 I collected lots of legal materials about
20 that subject. Some of that related to
21 letters that were signed by or received by
22 Chairman Hyde on that issue.
217
1 Q So you knew that if you wanted to
2 find letters from Chairman Hyde, you would
3 look in that file?
4 A Not letters, letters about the
5 issue of whether an independent counsel
6 should be appointed on campaign finance
7 issues. That is the only memory I have of
8 anything pertaining to Chairman Hyde.
9 Q What else was kept in that
10 independent counsel file?
11 A I could do one more slip and say
12 read the Wall Street Journal today and you
13 will see.
14 Q I did see your article in there.
15 A That is actually truthful, I kept
16 legal materials about the independent
17 counsel's statute and its application to
18 campaign finance issues, thinking some day
19 that would become an important issue and it
20 did. I addressed it.
21 Q These files that we are going
22 through right now, did you make copies of any
218
1 of the materials in them and take them when
2 you left?
3 A Yes, that is what I was referring
4 to. You asked me that earlier, I said I did
5 make copies of some of the files that I
6 collected.
7 Q Which copies of files did you make?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
10 answered.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You can respond.
13 A I made copies of the stories that I
14 thought were most interesting that I had
15 worked on at the White House. For example,
16 the Arlington Cemetery story, which is a
17 series of stories that were about the
18 Arlington Cemetery issue. Or the independent
19 counsel statute issue. Or Roger Tamraz
20 stories.
21 Things relating to campaign
22 financing that I thought were interesting,
219
1 and I made copies of newspaper clips and
2 materials and I took them with me.
3 Q What file was that material kept?
4 What was it labeled?
5 A What file was what material?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q About Arlington Cemetery?
9 A I called that Arlington Cemetery.
10 Q You knew if you wanted materials
11 about materials on Larry Lawrence, that is
12 where you would go?
13 A If I wanted materials about the
14 newspaper coverage of the Larry Lawrence
15 story, that is where I would go, yes.
16 Q If you wanted to find out something
17 that was written by Paul Rodriguez of Insight
18 Magazine, that is where you would go?
19 A Precisely.
20 Q Or if you wanted something written
21 by Ariel Hoffington about the Lawrence issue,
22 that is where you would go?
220
1 A If I had seen, and I do believe I
2 remember one from Miss Hoffington that I read
3 that I thought was interesting, I put it in
4 there and that is where I would go.
5 Q You made copies of that file and
6 took it with you when you left?
7 A Correct.
8 Q What other files did you copy, what
9 materials?
10 A What subject areas?
11 Q Yes, that you took with you.
12 A Do you want me to try to remember
13 all of them? Because I have categorically
14 described them as stories I thought were
15 interesting.
16 Q Let's go through what you remember.
17 It will make things easier.
18 MR. MILLS: Before he answers,
19 there is a continuing line objection to
20 relevance on this whole line of inquiry.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You may respond.
221
1 A I went through the year and tried
2 to pick out stories about the stories that
3 told interesting stories. The journalism. I
4 was interested in how journalists covered
5 what I was responsible for.
6 Q Tell me what files you went to make
7 those copies?
8 A I think I mentioned Arlington
9 Cemetery, Roger Tamraz, the two committees,
10 the Thompson and Burton hearings, Hudson
11 casino stories, molten metals story, Doris
12 Matsuie and Webster Hubbell story, the Lums
13 story. Give me some time. I may remember
14 all of them. The molten metals story. The
15 Monica Lewinsky story in the short period of
16 time I was there. That is probably most of
17 them.
18 Q With regard to the Monica Lewinsky
19 story, the file or folder was labeled Monica
20 Lewinsky?
21 A I think so.
22 Q In that file, you would put
222
1 materials concerning Judge Starr as related
2 to Monica Lewinsky?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, misstates
4 testimony. Objection, vague as to term
5 "materials."
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 A There was certainly material -- it
9 was only in the White House for ten days from
10 the first day that the Monica Lewinsky story
11 broke. So there were only ten days worth of
12 clips.
13 But there were a whole bunch of
14 newspaper clips about Lewinsky, the Lewinsky
15 story, including, I am sure references to the
16 Ken Starr prosecution and team and tactics.
17 Q In that file, would you put
18 materials or documents concerning Linda
19 Tripp?
20 A In those first ten days, I am sure
21 there were references to Linda Tripp as the
22 wire, yes, there have to be references to
223
1 Linda Tripp -- we are talking about clips,
2 now. I didn't have anything other than
3 newspaper clips because I was not speaking
4 about or responsible for the story. I was
5 just collecting clips.
6 I am sure Linda Tripp was mentioned
7 in the clips.
8 Q In that file would you put in
9 information about Kathleen Willey?
10 A Well, again you are using the word
11 information and I wouldn't agree with that
12 word. I put newspaper stories in that would
13 have related to various issues and
14 information.
15 I can't tell you for sure in the
16 first ten days of that story whether Kathleen
17 Willey was ever mentioned. I doubt it, but I
18 can't tell you for sure.
19 Q Was there a file where you kept
20 materials about women who had been alleged to
21 have had relationships with Mr. Clinton?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
224
1 THE WITNESS: I certainly didn't
2 keep those files myself. Again, I can't tell
3 you, and I am pretty sure, I am pretty sure I
4 can say that newspaper stories contained in
5 all of my files had references to other
6 stories that were written about people, but I
7 did not organize files for that purpose.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Do you know of anybody who did?
10 A At the White House?
11 Q Yes.
12 A No, I do not.
13 Q But you knew where in your files
14 you could go if you needed some information
15 about Kathleen Willey or Linda Tripp?
16 A Well, if I could correct one thing:
17 In the summer of 1997, in the early fall the
18 Kathleen Willey story broke. I am pretty
19 sure that I created a file about the Newsweek
20 story and its aftermath. I am not sure I
21 called it Kathleen Willey, but I am pretty
22 sure, by my usual system, I would have done
225
1 that. I just don't remember creating a
2 Kathleen Willey file.
3 Q But if you knew that if you needed
4 information about Kathleen Willey?
5 A I would look for the summer of 1997
6 chronology and try to find the subject area.
7 Q Was there a file you could try to
8 find material about Dolly Browning?
9 A No.
10 Q Did you ever gather information on
11 that?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
14 A No.
15 Q Paula Jones?
16 A I kept clips on Paula Jones
17 randomly, not systematically. Because I was
18 not responsible for commenting on Paula Jones
19 at all.
20 There were times that I would
21 collect an interesting Op Ed piece or
22 something to that effect. But, I don't think
226
1 I kept a file on Paula Jones. I might have
2 had materials about her, relating to the
3 case.
4 Q Did you ever keep a file or folder
5 that referred or related in any way to
6 Richard Mellon-Scaife?
7 A I did not keep a file of concerning
8 Richard Mellon-Scaife.
9 Q Was there a file you knew you could
10 go to that you kept, or others had, where you
11 would find materials about Mr. Scaife?
12 A Materials about?
13 Q Documents.
14 A I would say, what do you mean by
15 documents?
16 Q Anything, press clips?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Documents?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What file was that?
21 A The only one I can specifically
22 remember, but I am sure there could have been
227
1 others in a different file, different stories
2 that referenced him. Remember we are talking
3 about, for the most part about newspaper
4 stories where his name would come up. I
5 can't remember all of those.
6 I remember there was one notebook
7 that I inherited from my predecessor that
8 pertained to a theory that stories that were
9 on the extreme of the political spectrum,
10 that weren't in the mainstream, and were
11 inaccurate, would be published by tabloid
12 extremist organizations and then get to the
13 back washed into the mainstream media.
14 I believe that there were some
15 materials in there about Mr. Scaife that I
16 remember reading.
17 Q Who was your predecessor?
18 A Mr. Fabiani.
19 Q He kept a notebook where materials
20 were contained concerning Mr. Scaife?
21 A I don't believe he kept it. I
22 think it was created when he was there, and I
228
1 found it in a file cabinet when I arrived
2 during my first week at the White House.
3 Q Do you know who created it?
4 A I don't know who created it, other
5 than what I read in Spin Cycle.
6 Q Was the so-called conspiracy stream
7 of commerce project?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: I couldn't call it
10 project, that was the title.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Conspiracy Stream of Commerce?
13 A I don't think so.
14 Q You don't like the word project?
15 A No. I don't like or dislike it. I
16 don't think that was the name.
17 Q It remind you of Arkansas project?
18 MR. MILLS: Off the record.
19 (Discussion off the record)
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q What other materials were kept in
22 that binder?
229
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
2 THE WITNESS: That binder had a
3 two-page summary, and the rest of it were
4 newspaper clips. I think it was about 300
5 pages, and about 290 of the pages were
6 newspaper clips.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q What documents were in there other
9 than newspaper clips? What types?
10 A There is a two page summary
11 statement, and the rest of it was newspaper
12 clips.
13 Q Did you keep a file concerning
14 Western Journalism Center?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
17 A No.
18 Q Joe Farah?
19 A Who?
20 Q Who is the director of the Western
21 Journalism Center?
22 A Never heard of him.
230
1 Q Christopher Ruddy?
2 A No.
3 Q Was there a file where you could
4 find materials about Mr. Ruddy?
5 A No.
6 Q Olan Foundation?
7 A Never heard of it.
8 Q Landmark Legal Foundation?
9 A There was no file on Landmark.
10 Q Was there anything that you would
11 keep materials that you could now retrieve
12 it?
13 A You are now asking me all of these
14 questions about me, right?
15 Q Yes.
16 A No.
17 Q Mark Levin?
18 A No.
19 Q Congressman Bob Barr?
20 A No.
21 Q Was there a file you could go to
22 where you could find material about
231
1 Congressman Bob Barr or information?
2 A Not that I was aware of.
3 Q David Bossy, do you know who David
4 Bossy is?
5 A I sure do.
6 Q Any files where you could go to
7 find information about him?
8 A No.
9 Q Judge David Sentelle, do you know
10 who Judge David Sentelle is?
11 A I sure do.
12 Q Was there a file you could go to
13 where you would go to find out information
14 about any judges?
15 A Again, my running caveat is that
16 newspaper articles have so many different
17 subject areas over such a long period of time
18 might make reference to all of the people
19 that you are talking about and I can't tell
20 you I remembered all of those references you
21 talked about. With that caveat in mind, no.
22 Q Was there a file that kept or
232
1 related in way to Jesse Helms, Senator Helms?
2 A No.
3 Q Senator Lauch Faircloth?
4 A No.
5 Q Pat Robertson?
6 A No.
7 Q David Brock?
8 A No.
9 Q Floyd Brown? Do you know who Floyd
10 is?
11 A Do I know who he is? I sure do
12 know who he is.
13 Q Did you keep a file where you could
14 go to find information about Mr. Brown?
15 A No.
16 Q Governor Mike Huckabee of Arkansas?
17 A No.
18 Q Congressman Jack Kingston?
19 A No.
20 Q Brent Bozell, do you know who Brent
21 Bozell is?
22 A I think so.
233
1 Q Any file that you could go to find
2 information about him?
3 A I could save you the trouble. If
4 they were not part of the campaign finance
5 story and subject to journalism pertaining to
6 that story, the answer would be know no to
7 all of your questions.
8 Q Did you keep a file you could find
9 any information about Judge David Hale?
10 A By definition, since David Hale was
11 not involved the in the campaign finance
12 areas, since I did not speak to that issue I
13 did not keep --
14 Q Do you keep a file on White Water,
15 where you could keep?
16 A That is the caveat. If you want me
17 to, I will repeat every time the same caveat.
18 The caveat is that his name certainly is
19 going to appear. I had a file on White Water
20 stories. I am sure that David Hale's name
21 appeared in those stories every so often.
22 Q You knew if you wanted to get
234
1 information about Hale, that is the file you
2 would go to, if you had it?
3 A Yes, but it would be very, very
4 difficult because they were not organized by
5 subject areas. I would go to the clips of
6 White Water and there would be a pile of
7 unassembled newspaper clips and look through
8 to find David Hale's name. That would be
9 pretty inefficient.
10 Q But you did know, that is where you
11 would have to start?
12 A If he was there, that is where I
13 would start.
14 Q Joseph DiGenova? Is there a file
15 where you would go to find information about
16 him?
17 A Same caveat, no.
18 Q Mr. DiGenova and his wife, Victoria
19 Toensing, are counsel relating to the
20 Teamsters controversy?
21 A Which I had nothing to do with on
22 my watch.
235
1 Q It does not have something to do
2 with campaign finance?
3 A Conceivably yes, but I left the
4 White House just as that was beginning. It
5 was not on my watch.
6 Q Did you have any information that
7 you kept concerning Joseph DiGenova and
8 Victoria Toensing?
9 A No.
10 Q Even contained in newspaper
11 articles?
12 A Again, I want the record to be
13 clear that every question you are asking me
14 relates to the caveat that I expressed now a
15 couple of times.
16 Q Washington Legal Foundation?
17 A You are asking me the same
18 question.
19 Q Did you keep a file where you new
20 you could find information for the Washington
21 Legal Foundation?
22 A I did not keep a file. No, I did
236
1 not.
2 Q Did you keep a file where you knew
3 you could find information about John Huang?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What was the name of that file?
6 A Jon Huang, or Huang.
7 Q Did you keep a file on Helene
8 Calchaneheck?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did you keep a file on Johnny
11 Chung?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you keep a file on Ron Brown?
14 A No.
15 Q Commerce Department?
16 A Not campaign finance.
17 Q If you wanted to find something
18 about allegations of selling seats on trade
19 missions, where would you go look?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, lack of
21 foundation.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
237
1 Q You can respond.
2 A I would not have had a file on
3 that.
4 Q Was that not part of the campaign
5 finance controversy?
6 A It did not really come up in the
7 context of my responsibilities.
8 Q Why?
9 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't know why. I
11 mean, I was a mirror of what journalists were
12 interested in. They didn't come to me with
13 stories about selling seats. It may have
14 been before my watch. It may have been that
15 they were working on other things.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q These files were basically kept so
18 you would have materials to provide to the
19 media?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection,
21 mischaracterizes.
22 THE WITNESS: Exactly, my job was
238
1 to help reporters write stories, good
2 stories, bad stories. Help them write
3 stories.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q So the materials and documents
6 would be gathered so that you could help them
7 write the stories?
8 A Once they were written, they were
9 reference points for follow up questions
10 where I would be able to look back to see
11 what we had previously said or what had
12 previously been reported so I could stay
13 accurate and factual.
14 Q From time to time, because you were
15 gathering these materials and filing them to
16 help the reporters write stories, you would
17 send them copies of some of these materials?
18 A If they asked me.
19 Q Yes.
20 A Yes.
21 Q You did that?
22 A Yes.
239
1 MR. MILLS: Consult with the
2 witness.
3 (Witness conferred with counsel)
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Did you keep a file on Charlie
6 Trie?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Your answers with regard to Charlie
9 Trie would be the same as with these other
10 files?
11 A Yes. I don't think you need me or
12 want me to constantly restate the caveat.
13 When we are talking about files on a person,
14 I mean on a series of stories about that
15 person. I didn't keep personal files
16 information about Charlie Trie. I kept a
17 file about the journalism coverage of Charlie
18 Trie.
19 Q Did you ever keep a file concerning
20 Richard Sullivan of the DNC?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you know where to go to look
240
1 for information on Richard Sullivan in your
2 files?
3 A I would have known where to go to
4 look for stories written about the DNC. I
5 mean, there would be lots of places I would
6 be able -- I would go to if I were looking
7 for stories where Richard Sullivan's name was
8 mentioned. There was no specific place I
9 could think of to find information about
10 Richard Sullivan, no.
11 Q Now, with regard to the persons
12 whose information you testified to that were
13 in your files, did you or anyone at the White
14 House ever notify these people that
15 information was being kept that related or
16 concerned them?
17 A Well, I can't tell you that --
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
19 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you that
20 anybody -- are you asking me did I ever
21 notify them?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
241
1 Q Yes.
2 A That I was keeping a file or
3 newspaper stories about them?
4 Q Or whatever else was in the file?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection to the extent
6 that you misstate his testimony.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
8 THE WITNESS: Whenever was being
9 made in a public statement.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Whatever you considered a public
12 statement.
13 A That is fair. Did I? No, never
14 did that.
15 Q Before you released information
16 from any of these files to the media, before
17 you sent it to the media, did you ever
18 consult with anyone who was referred to in
19 these materials?
20 A No.
21 Q You never sought their permission?
22 A No.
242
1 Q Do you know of anyone who did at
2 the White House?
3 A No.
4 Q In your campaign finance files, was
5 there any reference to Judicial Watch that
6 you know of?
7 A I can't be certain of that, one way
8 or the other.
9 Q What is your best guess?
10 A I would guess Judicial Watch gets
11 into the newspapers every so often. I would
12 guess that its name would appear here and
13 there. I don't remember ever seeing it.
14 Q Weren't you asked questions by the
15 media about Judicial Watch?
16 MR. MILLS: Consult with me.
17 THE WITNESS: Say that again.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Were you ever asked any questions
20 by the media about Judicial Watch?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you know of anyone who was?
243
1 A I am not aware of any.
2 Q Were you ever asked questions by
3 anyone in the media about Judge Lamberth?
4 A I don't believe so.
5 Q With regards to the various
6 materials that you kept and filed, was there
7 anything concerning Judge Lamberth in those
8 materials?
9 A I can't be 100 percent certain his
10 name was not mentioned somewhere. My best
11 knowledge would be no.
12 Q Do you know of anyone in the White
13 House who did or does keep materials about,
14 that concern or relate to Judge Lamberth?
15 A I am not aware of anyone.
16 Q Judge Norma Holloway Johnson, same
17 question?
18 A I am not aware of any. I didn't,
19 nor am I aware of any.
20 Q Are you aware of any procedure in
21 the White House counsel's office to destroy
22 documents?
244
1 A No, I am not.
2 Q Is there a document retention
3 policy that you know of in the White House
4 counsel's office?
5 A I am not aware of any.
6 Q Is there a document retention
7 policy generally in the White House that you
8 are aware of?
9 A Not that I'm aware of.
10 Q Was there any directive, that you
11 are aware of when you came to the White
12 House, or afterwards which directed people to
13 destroy certain documents?
14 A I wasn't aware of any.
15 Q So to the best of your knowledge,
16 files and documents which you kept, which you
17 generated and kept in the White House should
18 still be in existence?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Did you keep a chron file of
21 communications that you generated when you
22 were at the White House?
245
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
2 THE WITNESS: I did not.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Did you keep copies of letters
5 which you sent?
6 A I did not, unless it was by
7 accident. I didn't have a secretary.
8 Q Well, letters were kept on hard
9 drive of your computer?
10 A If they were written on my hard
11 drive, and I don't think I wrote that many
12 letters, quite honestly, they would still be
13 there.
14 Q Did you make diskettes of
15 everything on the hard drive and leave the
16 White House with the diskettes?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
18 answered.
19 THE WITNESS: Not that I can ever
20 recall. Excuse me, did you say did I ever
21 make a diskette?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
246
1 Q I will ask you that question: Did
2 you ever make a diskette?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When did you make a diskette?
5 A I may have misstated before if I
6 said I never used anything on a diskette.
7 You just jogged my memory. If I said that
8 before, let me correct it.
9 There would be occasions where we
10 would be working on certain public statements
11 or Qs and As, that I would need to be
12 prepared for on a pending story.
13 I would make a diskette of our
14 first draft, and I would go across the street
15 to Mr. Ruff's office where we would work on
16 it over there. That would be the only time
17 that I remember using a transfer on to a
18 diskette methodology.
19 Q Did you keep copies of those
20 diskettes? Did you keep copies of those
21 diskettes?
22 A I did not. I have no idea where
247
1 they are. We were quite randomly left places
2 and searched for and reused and very
3 eclectically. So the answer is no.
4 Q What does "eclectic" mean?
5 A It means very diverse and by
6 happenstance. Not routine.
7 Q Did you ever contact Mr. Begala,
8 Mr. Blumenthal, Ms. Lewis, Mr. Emanuel to see
9 if they had documents that could be helpful
10 to the press?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection asked and
12 answered.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Documents, press release,
15 statements, whatever?
16 A No, I didn't.
17 Q Mr. McCurry?
18 A Not to the best of my recollection.
19 Mr. McCurry, documents, I would certainly ask
20 Mike McCurry for the press statements or
21 press releases, either the current ones that
22 he just put out or ones previously put out
248
1 pertaining to the issue, yes.
2 I would not ask him personally, I
3 would ask Laurie Anderson, probably.
4 Q You were aware that Judicial Watch
5 on behalf of its clients had filed or filed a
6 class action lawsuit, were you not?
7 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
8 facts not in evidence, no foundation.
9 THE WITNESS: While I was at the
10 White House?
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Yes, while you were at the White
13 House?
14 A I don't believe so.
15 Q How did that issue come up?
16 A It actually came up in the context
17 that knowing that Ms. Paxton had been
18 assigned responsibilities to monitor the
19 case.
20 Q You were aware that the White House
21 had been joined as a defendant, the Executive
22 Office of the President?
249
1 A I was kind of aware of it. I
2 didn't get into the details of it, but I was
3 aware of it.
4 Q You were aware the White House was
5 alleged to have violated the Privacy Act?
6 A I think I was aware of that.
7 Q You were aware that the White
8 House, called the Executive Office of the
9 President the White House, was alleged to
10 have violated the District of Columbia tort
11 of invocation of Privacy Act?
12 A I didn't know that.
13 Q You were aware that White House
14 challenged whether it could be sued under the
15 Privacy Act?
16 A Do you mind if I take my coat off?
17 Q No.
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, lack of
19 foundation.
20 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the
21 question?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
250
1 Q You were aware that the White House
2 filed a motion to dismiss on the basis that
3 it wasn't covered by the Privacy Act?
4 A I was not aware of that at the
5 time. I may have read about it since, but I
6 was not aware of it at the time.
7 Q You did become aware, when you
8 worked at the White House, that the White
9 House motion to dismiss was denied by the
10 court?
11 A While I was at the White House?
12 Q Yes.
13 A I think I may have heard that we
14 lost some motion, but I forget what it was
15 about.
16 Q That you lost a motion to dismiss?
17 A I think I heard we lost some motion
18 relating to this case. I don't think I knew
19 it was a motion to dismiss.
20 Q During the time you were in the
21 White House, you had no basis to believe that
22 the White House wasn't covered by the Privacy
251
1 Act, did you?
2 A I didn't know one way or the other.
3 Q Did you ever seek advice as to
4 whether or not the White House was covered by
5 the Privacy Act?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you ever do any research to
8 that effect?
9 A No.
10 Q Did you ask anybody else to do it?
11 A No.
12 Q Did anyone ever tell you whether
13 the White House was covered by the Privacy
14 Act?
15 A No.
16 Q Given the fact that you are
17 releasing materials from files to persons and
18 entities outside of the White House, based
19 upon your considerable legal experience, why
20 didn't you check to see whether the White
21 House was covered by the Privacy Act?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
252
1 THE WITNESS: I never thought about
2 it. One way or the other.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Up to the time that you took your
5 job in the White House you had been engaged
6 in legal matters concerning government
7 practice?
8 A I don't know what you mean by
9 government practice.
10 Q Matters involving the government?
11 A I was involved in matters
12 pertaining to the government, yes.
13 Q During that period of time, did you
14 ever file Freedom of Information Act requests
15 on behalf of your clients?
16 A Yes, yes, many times.
17 Q Did you ever have any legal matters
18 involving the Privacy Act up to the point you
19 took your job in the White House?
20 A Never.
21 Q Are you aware that Freedom of
22 Information Act is part of the Privacy Act?
253
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, misstates
2 the law.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q What is your understanding?
6 A I am embarrassed to say I never
7 knew that, if it is true.
8 Q Were there any materials circulated
9 at the time that you were at the White House
10 providing guidance on whether certain
11 materials should be released and others
12 should not be released to the public?
13 A I don't recall any. I just want to
14 remind you, because I didn't want to
15 interrupt the flow of your questions, when I
16 send out published newspaper articles, that
17 is all I did. Matters that I considered to
18 be already in the public domain.
19 So for me there would be no trigger
20 in my mind of a Privacy Act issue, although
21 you I have never read the Privacy Act and
22 know nothing with it.
254
1 Q Did anyone ever provide advice to
2 you or anyone else that you know of on
3 Privacy Act requirements in terms of
4 disseminating information from the White
5 House?
6 A Not while I was in the White House,
7 no.
8 Q So as far as you know, it wasn't a
9 concern at the White House?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 THE WITNESS: It might have been a
13 concern, it just wasn't communicated to me.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Yet your job was to disseminate
16 information to members of the media, correct?
17 A To disseminate information for
18 publication to the media that we considered
19 to be factual, yes.
20 Q You never thought it prudent to get
21 advice on what you could disseminate and what
22 you could not?
255
1 MR. MILLS: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: I considered it
3 prudent to get advice on making sure that
4 what I said was accurate and factual. If I
5 was convinced it was accurate and factual,
6 then I was comfortable in any own mind, as an
7 attorney, and according to my own standards,
8 that I should release it to the press.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q I am not saying you did this, but
11 let's take your guide posts, if information
12 from an FBI file was accurate as far as you
13 could determine, then under your system of
14 deciding whether to release it, that would be
15 sufficient?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection,
17 hypothetical. You can ask the witness fact
18 questions.
19 THE WITNESS: I think my logic and
20 legal experience would make a distinction
21 between an FBI file and a newspaper article
22 that had been published in a newspaper in the
256
1 public domain.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q What, based on your experience and
4 logic would tell you that an FBI file should
5 be treated differently than a newspaper
6 article?
7 A You asking for my uninformed
8 opinion on that? I think an FBI file
9 contains allegations that are unproven and
10 may not be accurate and cannot be
11 substantiated by me, or anyone for that
12 matter, and therefore would be very unfair to
13 release publicly.
14 Q Based on your considerable
15 experience with media, are you saying that
16 the media always published accurate
17 information?
18 A No, it does not.
19 Q It frequently does not?
20 A It frequently does not.
21 Q So therefore, what is the
22 distinction?
257
1 A I would judge the nature of the
2 publication, the Legal Times stories on
3 Arlington Cemetery, and Insight Magazine was
4 inaccurate. So in the future, I would not
5 rely on the accuracy of that publication
6 until shown otherwise.
7 If it was a New York Times or a
8 Washington Post story previously published,
9 where I had some basis to believe that they
10 had checked their sources for reliability, I
11 would make a judgment that that would be
12 safer for me to make a judgment that it was
13 accurate.
14 Q Based upon recent reports that CNN
15 did not report the story on Saran correctly,
16 does that mean, given your guide posts, you
17 would no longer rely on CNN as a source of
18 information?
19 A I think you would have to balance
20 the likelihood of errors versus their track
21 record of accuracy.
22 In the case of CNN, I would balance
258
1 the errors versus the good journalism and
2 probably come up in -- definitely come up in
3 favor of relying on the CNN report
4 notwithstanding the mistake.
5 Q When you were in the White House
6 and you faxed materials to reporters, was
7 there a fax log that you logged in what you
8 were faxing?
9 A No.
10 Q Did you get confirmations on the
11 fax machine that it went through?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Were those confirmations kept?
14 A Not by me.
15 Q By anyone?
16 A I don't know. I had a little fax
17 machine and threw the stuff away whenever it
18 popped out.
19 Q Did you keep a record of what you
20 sent outside of the White House?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you sometimes put fax cover
259
1 sheets on documents which you sent?
2 A Yeah, I did up my own little cover
3 sheets that had my name on it and fax number
4 on it.
5 Q You kept the fax cover sheets, did
6 you not?
7 A I threw most of the stuff away
8 after I faxed, so I don't think so.
9 Sometimes.
10 Q You may have some?
11 A I may have.
12 Q You may have faxed the fax cover
13 sheet to the top of the document that you
14 sent?
15 A I doubt it.
16 Q Attached it in some way?
17 A I doubt it.
18 Q Is there a mail log in the White
19 House counsel's office, that if you mail
20 something out, you record in who you are
21 mailing it to?
22 A Not in my job.
260
1 Q Do you know of anyone who keeps
2 such a log?
3 A I don't. No secretary. I don't
4 mean to be facetious about that. We were
5 really on our own in terms of our own file
6 system.
7 If it seems like it is sloppy or
8 inefficient, we do our best.
9 Q Why didn't you have any
10 secretaries?
11 A Trying to be lean and efficient.
12 That is the truth. We didn't have the money
13 to pay for secretaries.
14 Q You spent the money on hiring
15 lawyers rather than secretaries?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Was that your understanding?
20 A I don't know who made those
21 decisions. They hired me and didn't give me
22 a secretary.
261
1 Q Did you ever complain?
2 A Yes.
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, irrelevant.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Were there people that would come
6 in from time to time and help you
7 administratively if you had a particularly
8 big task other than these interns you
9 described?
10 A No.
11 Q Let's take a five minute break.
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
13 video records at 3:04.
14 (Recess)
15 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
16 record at 3:22.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you ever talked with anyone at
19 the White House at any time about Filegate?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
21 answered.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
262
1 Q It is a little broader than I asked
2 before.
3 A While I was at the White House? I
4 don't really think I ever did.
5 Q Afterwards?
6 A Other than in preparation for this
7 deposition, I don't believe so.
8 Q Who did you talk with in
9 preparation for this deposition?
10 A I talked to my attorney and I
11 talked to Betsy and I talked to Sally.
12 Q Betsy Shapiro and Sally Paxton?
13 A Right.
14 Q Did you meet with them?
15 MR. MILLS: Consult with the
16 witness.
17 (Witness conferred with counsel)
18 THE WITNESS: In the context of
19 their representation of the government and my
20 private attorney, I talked to them as
21 attorneys representing.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
263
1 Q Is Ms. Shapiro representing you in
2 this deposition?
3 A Only Mr. Mills is recommending me
4 in my personal capacity. I believe that
5 Ms. Shapiro is representing me as a former
6 official of the Executive Office of
7 President.
8 Q Did you meet with them to prepare
9 for this deposition?
10 A Yes.
11 Q How long did you meet?
12 A Three or four hours.
13 Q When did that meeting occur?
14 A We had one meeting last week or --
15 what is today? Thursday. I think we had a
16 meeting -- we had one yesterday, and -- I
17 think we had a meeting on Monday, or Tuesday.
18 Q Was the total of the meetings three
19 to four hours?
20 A I think the first meeting was last
21 week and our second meeting was yesterday.
22 Q Three to four hours?
264
1 A Total was three to four hours. If
2 you want, I can check my calendar as to when
3 the first meeting was. Either Monday or
4 Tuesday of this week or last week.
5 Q To the extent you didn't already
6 answer this question.
7 MR. MILLS: A moment to confer with
8 client, please.
9 (Witness conferred with counsel)
10 THE WITNESS: My client.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Maybe he is your client, who knows?
13 A My attorney reminds me that the
14 difference between them that I used in the
15 previous sentence was that I did meet with
16 all three, Mr. Mills, Ms. Shapiro and Miss
17 Paxton. I also have spent time with my own
18 attorney on other occasions.
19 Q How much did you spend with
20 Mr. Mills, is that who you are referring to?
21 A Yes, Mr. Mills. I would say
22 probably another three or four hours of
265
1 discussion pertaining to your subpoena and
2 your request for discovery and some of the
3 other issues concerning the scheduling of
4 this deposition.
5 Q Did you ever discuss the FBI files
6 with anyone at the White House before you
7 became an employee of the White House?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Who did you discuss it with?
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
11 answered.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: No, this is a new
13 answer, because I think we asked it in a more
14 precise way.
15 MR. MILLS: You previously asked
16 the question.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's see if it is
18 the same, I don't think it is.
19 THE WITNESS: I can't remember
20 exactly when this was. But in 1996 on a few
21 occasions, it may have been only one or two,
22 I appeared on Crossfire and Larry King. One
266
1 or both of those shows. The subject of the
2 show was the FBI file story.
3 In preparation for those
4 appearances, I did talk to one or more people
5 at the White House who had familiarity with
6 the previous White House statements on this
7 story.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Who did you talk to?
10 A I remember talking to Chris Lehane.
11 I may have talked to Mark Fabiani.
12 Q What did Mr. Lehane tell you?
13 A He told me that the two -- that the
14 two -- according to what the White House had
15 previously stated, that the two individuals
16 named as being responsible for requesting
17 these files and looking at these files had
18 done so without the authority or knowledge of
19 any supervisor at the White House, and
20 certainly without their approval.
21 Q What was Mr. Lehane's title at the
22 time?
267
1 A I don't know what his title was.
2 Q Do you know what office he worked
3 in?
4 A I believe he was part of a team of
5 lawyers under the supervision of Jane
6 Shivern, who was special counsel to the
7 President or a title something like that.
8 Q What else did Mr. Lehane say?
9 A I think that is about it. There
10 was no knowledge, authority or approval of
11 what these two individuals had done.
12 Q You also had a conversation with
13 Mark Fabiani?
14 A That I am not sure of. I think I
15 might have.
16 Q What was discussed with him, you
17 think might have been discussed?
18 A Probably the same topic with the
19 same answer.
20 Q Did you ask either of them what
21 proof they had that this was just an act by
22 these two individuals?
268
1 A I believe they told me that there
2 had been an internal inquiry, and that that
3 was the conclusion reached, such that
4 Mr. Fabiani and or Mr. Lehane had been
5 authorized to say that to the press.
6 Q Who conducted that internal
7 inquiry?
8 A I do not know.
9 Q An internal White House inquiry?
10 A I assumed it was a White House
11 inquiry, yes.
12 Q Did you ask them to send you any
13 documentation on the Filegate matter?
14 A I believe I did.
15 Q What did you ask them to send you?
16 A What talking points or press
17 statements had they put out.
18 Q They sent you some talking points?
19 A I am pretty sure that Mr. Lehane
20 sent me some talking points. I am not 100
21 percent sure, but I am pretty sure.
22 Q The use of the parlance "talking
269
1 points", that is something that is used in
2 the White House?
3 A Yes.
4 Q That occurs when you want to put
5 down information that you want to talk about?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q That is where it comes, talking
8 points; correct?
9 A That is the way we mean it.
10 Q Those talking points comply to
11 either communications with the media or when
12 you provide testimony in court or whatever?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes fact
14 not in evidence, leading.
15 THE WITNESS: We only meant it to
16 be a summary of the parameters of what I had
17 authority, based upon what we believed to be
18 factual accuracy, to say to the press.
19 So to be careful about what I would
20 say, we would write them up as to what we
21 would call talking points, meant to be
22 accurate description of what we knew in
270
1 response to a press inquiry.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q But talking points were also
4 prepared for witnesses who testified in
5 court, were they not?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
7 facts not in evidence, leading, irrelevant.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objections.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond.
11 A I have no idea.
12 Q What else, besides talking points,
13 were you sent?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
15 THE WITNESS: I think I was sent
16 some press clippings of what had already been
17 written in the newspapers about the story so
18 far.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you seek information from any
21 source other than the White House about
22 Filegate to be able to comment about it?
271
1 A Not in those days, no.
2 Q Do you still have the material that
3 you were sent on Filegate in the White House?
4 A No.
5 Q What happened to that material?
6 A Thrown away, discarded, not
7 retained.
8 Q When you left Patton Boggs and Blow
9 to go to the White House, did you take some
10 files with you?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you take any materials with
13 you?
14 A I took my personal, you know,
15 checkbook, finances, insurance, will,
16 personal files, that I kept at Patton Boggs
17 home and kept them at home in my basement. I
18 left everything relating to my legal practice
19 at the firm.
20 Q Did you take any materials that the
21 White House had sent to you?
22 A No.
272
1 Q What happened to those materials?
2 A I would throw them away after the
3 show was over, I mean, after I thought the
4 story was over. If I was on for a few shows,
5 I might keep some of the stuff that
6 Mr. Lehane sent to me, but then I would throw
7 it away.
8 Q During the time you were at Patton
9 Boggs, what else did the White House send
10 you?
11 A Well, whatever was a current story
12 that I was asked to address, I would call and
13 asked for the latest White House public
14 statements or press clippings, and I guess we
15 would have to look back at '96 as to all of
16 the issues that were coming up that were
17 being raised which I was commenting on some
18 of these television programs.
19 Q Did you have a White House pass
20 before you went to work for the White House?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, irrelevant.
22 THE WITNESS: No, I only had been
273
1 to the White House once before in my life
2 before I went there.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q During the time period 1992 until
5 the time that you began working at the White
6 House, did you ever talk to the President or
7 Mrs. Clinton?
8 A Say that again.
9 Q During the period after the
10 election of the Clinton administration, up to
11 the point you went to work at the White
12 House, did you ever talk to the President or
13 Mrs. Clinton?
14 A What election year are you talking
15 about?
16 Q 1992.
17 A Between 1992 and the time I went to
18 work at the White House did I ever talk to
19 the President and Mrs. Clinton?
20 Q Or Mrs. Clinton?
21 A Or Mrs. Clinton.
22 Q Yes.
274
1 A Yes.
2 Q On about how many occasions?
3 A I would say four, maybe five.
4 Q What was the general subject matter
5 of those conversations?
6 A Social occasions, were pure
7 exchange of pleasantries, and on one occasion
8 a telephone call, talking about some of the
9 issues that I was talking about on
10 television.
11 Q Who did you have a telephone call
12 with?
13 A With President Clinton.
14 Q When did that take place?
15 A In the early part of 1996.
16 Q Did he you call you or did you call
17 him?
18 A He called me.
19 Q Where were you at the time?
20 A I was home.
21 Q How did he get your home phone
22 number?
275
1 A I assume White House operators can
2 get everybody's home phone number.
3 Q Are you listed in the phone book?
4 A I am not listed. I think they got
5 it from a friend.
6 Q Had he ever called you before at
7 home?
8 A Once.
9 Q When was that?
10 A When he was a candidate for
11 President.
12 Q In 1992?
13 A I think it was in 1991.
14 Q What did he talk to you about
15 in 1991?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, irrelevant.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A I had called him at his hotel to
20 congratulate him on the first debate at
21 Kennedy Center with all of the other
22 Democratic candidates, and I thoughts he had
276
1 done great and I left him a message. He
2 called me at home, late at night, to respond
3 to my phone call.
4 Q The second phone call in 1996, what
5 were the issues you discussed, generally
6 speaking?
7 A I think he just called to thank me
8 for the appearances that I had been doing.
9 Q Did you discuss specifically
10 comments that you had made about Filegate?
11 A No.
12 Q Any other issue involving Clinton
13 controversy?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, irrelevant.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You can respond.
17 A I think he called me after I had
18 done a program concerning the First Lady's
19 appearance before the grand jury. I made
20 some comments about that. I think he called
21 me to thank me.
22 Q During the conversation, did he ask
277
1 for your help in the future?
2 A Not really. It was just a thank
3 you phone call. I told him I wanted to help.
4 I said whatever I can do, I would like to
5 help you more.
6 I believe it was at that point
7 that, you know, helped me decide to want to
8 help him even more.
9 Q Have you ever received any
10 documents or other materials from the
11 President?
12 A Ever?
13 Q Ever.
14 A You I have received letters and
15 thank you letters or personal letters, and
16 when I was at the White House I sometimes
17 would get a little note from him.
18 Q Have you kept those communications?
19 A I think my wife has kept all of the
20 letters, of which there were maybe four or
21 five, and they were little one or two
22 sentence letters, they were not long letters.
278
1 Q Did you ever receive any documents
2 or other things from his office commenting on
3 some of the Clinton controversies, talking
4 points or anything like that?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
6 THE WITNESS: Once in awhile I
7 would get a newspaper article or magazine
8 article that he had read and he would put
9 some names on top of the article, copy and
10 would send the note to his staff secretary to
11 send us copies and drew an FYI as if he
12 wanted us to read it.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Have you got continue anything
15 since you have left the White House from the
16 President?
17 A No.
18 Q Has he called you?
19 A No.
20 Q Has anyone in his office called
21 you, his immediate office?
22 A Meaning?
279
1 Q Betty Curry.
2 A No.
3 Q Any of his assistants?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Who?
6 A Nancy Hernreich returned a couple
7 of my phone calls.
8 Q When did you call Nancy Hernreich?
9 A I called her a few times since I
10 left. To say hello and tell President
11 Clinton that I think he is doing fine.
12 Q Did you discuss any of the Clinton
13 controversies with Ms. Hernreich?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Did you ever discuss Ms. Monica
18 Lewinsky?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
280
1 Q Linda Tripp?
2 A No.
3 Q Kathleen Willey?
4 A No.
5 Q Anyone else that you talked to in
6 and around the office of the President since
7 you left?
8 A What do you mean in and around?
9 Q In his head office?
10 A I am not being cute. I don't know
11 what you mean.
12 Q From the White House? Anybody you
13 talked to from the White House?
14 A I talked to a lot of people in the
15 White House.
16 Q You talk to them on a daily basis?
17 A Not on a daily basis. But I have a
18 lot of friends there. We socialize, go to
19 restaurants, go out to eat. I keep in touch
20 with friends.
21 Q Who is the people you talk to most?
22 A Lanny Breuer, Adam Goldberg, Jim
281
1 Kennedy. Brian Smith, Chess Johnson.
2 Q Have you ever been called by
3 Mrs. Clinton?
4 A Ever been called?
5 Q Yes.
6 A Yes.
7 Q When was that?
8 A On the day that I announced my
9 departure.
10 Q You were still at the White House
11 or already gone?
12 A No, the day I announced my
13 departure when I was still at the White
14 House. Not publicly announced, I made my
15 decision I was leaving. I told her chief of
16 staff that I wanted to talk to her to tell
17 her in person, and she called me.
18 Q What did she say to you?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: He can respond
22 subject to my instructions, which is if there
282
1 are any substantive issues of policy or
2 advice you are not to reveal the substance of
3 that conversation.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: He is not a
5 government employee.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: The objection stands.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: On what basis?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: On the basis I am
9 asserting a privilege and stating an
10 objection.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: What is the
12 privilege?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: On the basis I am
14 instructing him not to answer because it is
15 could be a privileged conversation.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: What basis would
17 Mrs. Clinton ever have a privileged
18 conversation with Mr. Davis? She is not even
19 a government employee.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't have to tell
21 you why. If you read the case law, you will
22 understand. I have asserted a privilege.
283
1 You don't want to use up time arguing.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: What privilege? For
3 the record, what privilege? You just can't
4 say privilege.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Mr. Klayman, you are
6 the one who doesn't ever want me to define my
7 objections.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it a First Lady
9 privilege?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Presidential
11 communication privilege. As I say, if you
12 read the case law, you will understand the
13 parameters of it.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: What case law are you
15 referring to?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: The In re: Seal case.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: What is the site?
18 There are a lots of In re: Seal cases.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't want to have
20 a discussion. You have a citation. We have
21 written an entire brief on the issue.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't recollect.
284
1 THE WITNESS: The answer is she
2 just said I am sorry you are leaving. I
3 understand the reasons why. You have done a
4 great job, period.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Have you ever discussed Judge Starr
7 with the President or Mrs. Clinton?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. You are
12 going to need to define your question more as
13 to time period.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I don't.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Ever?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Answer that question
18 if you have ever had that kind of
19 conversation ever?
20 THE WITNESS: What is your
21 question?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
285
1 Q Have you ever discussed Judge Starr
2 with the President or Mrs. Clinton?
3 A You want to break those up? Either
4 one.
5 Q Have you ever discussed Judge Starr
6 with the President?
7 A What do you mean by discussion?
8 Q Have you ever mentioned or has he
9 ever mentioned Judge Kenneth Starr in any
10 conversation that you had with him?
11 A Conversation personally with me,
12 no.
13 Q What do you mean by conversation
14 personally with you?
15 A Directly toward me, alone, no.
16 Q Did he ever discuss Judge Starr in
17 the presence of others?
18 A Yes.
19 Q When was that?
20 A During the times that I was in the
21 room, prior to a press conference.
22 Q What did he say about Judge Starr?
286
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Instruct the witness
2 not to answer that question.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Did you ever discuss Judge Starr
6 with the President?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
8 answered.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q What did you discuss?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, same
13 objection, I instruct him not to answer.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Did you ever discuss Judge Starr
17 with Mrs. Clinton?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you ever met Craig
20 Livingstone?
21 A No.
22 Q Have you ever met Anthony Marceca?
287
1 A No.
2 Q Have you ever met Bernard Nussbaum?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When did you meet Bernard Nussbaum?
5 A I met Bernard Nussbaum for the
6 first time in January of 1993.
7 Q What was discussed then?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lack of
9 foundation.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Strike that. Where did you meet
12 him?
13 A I met him at my law firm.
14 Q What was he doing there?
15 A It might have been February of '93,
16 January or February. He came over to the law
17 firm to hear my report on Janet Reno.
18 Q What report was that? What was
19 that about?
20 A It was the results of my vetting
21 team's findings.
22 Q Did you ever discuss Filegate with
288
1 Bernard Nussbaum?
2 A No.
3 Q Did you ever ask him about
4 Filegate?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever ask him if he was
7 involved in any way in Filegate?
8 A No.
9 Q Did Bernard Nussbaum ever send you
10 any documentation when you were working at
11 Patton Boggs?
12 A No.
13 Q Did there come a point in time when
14 you got to know William Kennedy?
15 A No.
16 Q Have you ever met William Kennedy?
17 A Never met William Kennedy.
18 Q Did you ever come into contact with
19 Linda Tripp during the period she was working
20 at the White House?
21 A No.
22 Q Are you aware that she worked for
289
1 Bernard Nussbaum?
2 A I am only aware of it from reading
3 it in newspapers.
4 Q Did you ever come into contact with
5 Vince Foster?
6 A Yes.
7 Q When was that?
8 A During the same time period that I
9 met Mr. Nussbaum.
10 Q In what context did you get to know
11 Mr. Foster?
12 A In the context of my supervising
13 the vetting of Ms. Janet Reno.
14 Q Did you ever discuss Filegate with
15 Mr. Foster?
16 A I never discussed Filegate with
17 anyone at that time period.
18 Q During the time that you worked at
19 Patton Boggs, did you ever have contact with
20 James Sherburne before you went to the White
21 House?
22 A In what context?
290
1 Q When you were at the White House?
2 A In October of 1996 Presidential
3 debate in San Diego. I had expressed an
4 interest in attending the debate and being
5 helpful on some of the issues that I had been
6 talking about in these television programs.
7 I called Jane Sherburne, who I
8 previously met once before. I guess the
9 first time I met her would be earlier in the
10 campaign, at a meeting at campaign
11 headquarters over at Ann Lewis. Then I
12 called her about going to San Diego for the
13 debate and I saw her there.
14 Q Did you ever discuss any matters
15 before joining the White House with Miss
16 Sherburne about some of the controversies, I
17 call scandals you call controversies?
18 A No.
19 Q Anything related to Filegate?
20 A No.
21 MR. MILLS: Consult with the
22 witness.
291
1 (Witness conferred with counsel)
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Was Miss Sherburne at the White
4 House during any of the time period that you
5 were at the White House?
6 A Just the tail end, yes, you are
7 right. I had forgotten.
8 Q Did you ever discuss anything
9 related to Filegate or Travelgate with her?
10 A No.
11 Q Have you talked to Ms. Sherburne
12 within the last six months?
13 A Yes.
14 Q In what context?
15 A I called her several times, because
16 I thought she had an out standing job on Meet
17 the Press or Face the Nation or This Week.
18 Q Did you discuss anything concerning
19 Filegate or this lawsuit?
20 A No.
21 Q The FBI and the White House?
22 A No.
292
1 Q You are aware, are you not, that
2 Judicial Watch has maintained that the White
3 House has used information from government
4 files to smear people, destroy their
5 credibility and intimidate witnesses? You
6 are aware of that, either in the context of
7 this lawsuit or otherwise?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of the
10 words that you used. I am aware of your
11 lawsuit through the newspaper reports.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Have you heard me saying anything
14 publicly, or anyone else from Judicial Watch,
15 that the White House is engaged in a campaign
16 to intimidate witnesses in the various
17 Clinton controversies?
18 A I think I heard you say that on
19 some television shows.
20 Q Have you ever discussed the
21 allegation with Ms. Sherburne?
22 A No.
293
1 Q Have you ever discussed these
2 allegations with anyone?
3 A Other than preparing for this
4 deposition?
5 Q Yes.
6 A No.
7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
8 video records at 3:49.
9 (Discussion off the record)
10 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
11 record at 3:56.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q During that second conversation
14 that you had with Mr. Clinton, did you
15 discuss Ken Starr? This is the conversation
16 after you left the White House.
17 A The conversation after I left the
18 White House? I have had no conversation
19 after I left the White House.
20 Q I thought, excuse me, in 1996,
21 before you joined the White House, the one
22 where he called you at home.
294
1 A What is your question?
2 Q Was Judge Starr discussed?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You can respond.
6 A Not specifically, no.
7 Q Generally?
8 A Generally, in the context of my
9 comments on the Geraldo show. He just
10 thanked me for the job I was doing on behalf
11 of himself and Mrs. Clinton.
12 Q Did he ask you to disseminate
13 information to effect Mr. Starr's reputation?
14 A No.
15 Q Has anyone in the White House ever
16 asked you to do that?
17 A No.
18 Q Not for that specific purpose?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: Not for any purpose.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You are aware that there is a White
295
1 House research office, are you not?
2 A No, I am not aware of a research
3 office.
4 Q Have you ever heard of a research
5 office inside of the communications
6 department?
7 A No.
8 Q Have you ever come to learn of a
9 Mr. Tom Janenda?
10 A Yes, I know Tom.
11 Q How do you know Tom?
12 A He used to have meetings where he
13 attended.
14 Q At the White House?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you get to know him before you
17 were at the White House?
18 A No.
19 Q What was your understanding about
20 Mr. Janenda's job?
21 A I thought he was in the political
22 organization office somewhere.
296
1 Q What is the political office?
2 A There is an office for political
3 affairs in the White House. I thought that
4 is where he worked. To tell you the truth, I
5 was not quite sure where he worked.
6 Q Who is the head of that office?
7 A When I was there, his name was
8 Craig Smith.
9 Q Where is Craig Smith today?
10 A I don't know.
11 Q Who else is located in that office?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q What does the political office do?
14 A Politics. Worries about politics.
15 Q Is this an office within the White
16 House that has nothing to do with the White
17 House?
18 A I think it is part of the
19 Presidential hierarchy of offices.
20 Q But you are not supposed to do
21 politics out of the White House, are you,
22 based on your experience?
297
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague and
2 ambiguous.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q I am trying to figure out what they
5 do. You are not supposed to be engaging in
6 political matters in the White House?
7 A I would say I would respectfully
8 disagree with the accuracy of that statement,
9 both historically and in logic.
10 Q We don't want to debate it
11 philosophically here.
12 A You just asked me my opinion and I
13 gave it to you.
14 Q What specifically did that office
15 do, when you were at the White House?
16 A It was doing politics, concerned
17 about the politics of the presidential
18 leadership and policy, and communicating to
19 constituencies and getting support for the
20 President's policies.
21 Q Who else worked in that office
22 besides Mr. Smith and Mr. Janenda?
298
1 A I don't know.
2 Q That political affairs office, was
3 that under another division of the White
4 House?
5 A I am not quite sure. I think it
6 was -- I never seen an organization chart, so
7 I wouldn't know.
8 Q What were the nature of the
9 meetings where you attended where Mr. Janenda
10 was present?
11 A They were during the period of time
12 of the Congressional hearings, prior to,
13 during, on campaign finance. We would talk
14 about the hearings. He would be present at
15 some of those meetings.
16 Q What were his duties and
17 responsibilities?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q Did you ever know why he was there?
20 A I thought he was there because he
21 knew about politics, because he worked in the
22 political office, I thought.
299
1 Q What caused you to believe that
2 Mr. Janenda worked in the political office?
3 A He knew a lot about politics.
4 Q Did anyone tell you he worked
5 there? Did he tell you?
6 A I thought so, but I don't know how
7 I got that impression, honest. He might have
8 been in the communications office. I never
9 quite knew.
10 Q Did you ever come in contact with
11 Glenn Wiener?
12 A I have heard the name, I think I
13 probably met him but I wouldn't know him if I
14 walked in the door. Maybe I would know him
15 if he walked in the door.
16 Q Where did you hear the name?
17 A I think I heard his name at the
18 White House somewhere.
19 Q Do you know what he does?
20 A I don't think I knew what he did.
21 He may have worked with Mr. Janenda, but I am
22 not sure.
300
1 Q Have you ever heard of a Brenda
2 Costello?
3 A No.
4 Q Have you ever heard of an Ann
5 Walker?
6 A The name sounds familiar, but I
7 couldn't tell you from where.
8 Q Would it ring a bell or refresh
9 your recollection if I told you she worked
10 for Ann Lewis?
11 A It wouldn't help me.
12 Q Is there an office in the White
13 House that you know of that collects
14 information that does research on various
15 matters?
16 A The answer is: I am sure that each
17 of the offices of the White House have people
18 doing research about the economy and foreign
19 policy and those kinds of issues. There must
20 be people who do research.
21 Q Did you ever consult with any of
22 those offices when you were at the White
301
1 House?
2 A On the rare occasions where I would
3 be asked a question on economic policy or
4 foreign policy, I would usually either ask
5 Lanny Breuer to get me the answers, or once
6 in awhile I would bump into somebody in the
7 mess, and I would ask a question and get an
8 answer.
9 Q Did you ever work with Paul Begala
10 when you were at the White House?
11 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
12 answered.
13 THE WITNESS: I certainly talked to
14 him a lot when he was there. I don't think I
15 ever really worked with him, but I talked to
16 him a lot.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Under what circumstances did you
19 call him?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lack of
21 foundation.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
302
1 Q On what matters did you interact
2 with him?
3 A Campaign finance issues, on
4 message, on strategy.
5 Q What did you understand his job to
6 be? Not his title, what his job functions
7 were?
8 A I think he provided advice in the
9 arena of political and policy message and
10 political strategy.
11 Q Did there come a point in time when
12 you became aware of an interview, a
13 commentary made by George Stephanopoulos on
14 This Week with Sam Donaldson and Cokie
15 Roberts where he described an Ellen Rometsch
16 strategy?
17 A I had read that for the first time
18 in one of your papers that you sent to me.
19 Q What papers did I send to you?
20 A I think it was one of the
21 subpoenas. I forget. It might have been the
22 second one that you sent to me. There is a
303
1 transcript.
2 MR. MILLS: If Mr. Klayman would
3 allow the witness to examine the exhibits to
4 the deposition.
5 THE WITNESS: I have already
6 examined it. It is the notice of deposition,
7 duces tecum, where I am now looking at, where
8 I read, and it was in the other one, too, I
9 think. But that is the first time I ever saw
10 it.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me show you what
12 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
13 Exhibit No. 4.
14 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 4
15 was marked for identification.)
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q This is a transcript of This Week
18 with Sam Donaldson and Cokie Robertson,
19 February 8 of this year, 1998. I turn your
20 attention to page 2, in the middle of the
21 page, where Sam Donaldson states:
22 "We know what the White House
304
1 tactics are. I mean, they have been almost
2 open about it. Attack the press, and perhaps
3 with good reason, attack the independent
4 counsel, perhaps for some good reason, and
5 stonewall on the central issue, which is the
6 President of the United States. If he has
7 nothing to hide, why is he hiding?"
8 George Stephanopoulos: "I agree
9 with that and there is a different, long-term
10 strategy, which I think would be far more
11 explosive. White House allies are already
12 starting to whisper about what I will call
13 the Ellen Rometsch strategy."
14 Sam Donaldson: "I remember her."
15 George Stephanopoulos: "You
16 remember her?"
17 Sam Donaldson: "Oh, yes."
18 George Stephanopoulos: "She was a
19 girlfriend of John F. Kennedy, who also
20 happened to be an East German spy. Robert
21 Kennedy was also charged with getting her out
22 of the country and also getting J. Edgar
305
1 Hoover to go to the Congress and say: Don't
2 you investigate this, because if you do we
3 are going to open up everybody's closets. I
4 think that in the long run, they have a
5 deterrent strategy getting a lot of --"
6 George Will: "Monica Lewinsky is
7 an East German spy?"
8 Sam Donaldson: "No, but that's a
9 good point. Are you suggesting for a moment
10 that what they are beginning to say is that
11 if you investigate this too much, we will put
12 all of your dirty linen on the table? Every
13 member of the Senate? Every member of the
14 press corps?"
15 George Stephanopoulos:
16 "Absolutely. The President said he will
17 never resign and I think some around him are
18 willing to take everyone down with him."
19 Do you remember hearing that
20 statement from any source in and around
21 February 8th of this year?
22 A No.
306
1 Q Did anybody ever call you and ask
2 you about Stephanopoulos's statements?
3 A No.
4 Q The first time you became aware of
5 that is when it was attached to this
6 transcript to the subpoena which Judicial
7 Watch served on you?
8 A No.
9 Q Do you know who Ellen Rometsch was
10 quite apart from my reading what George
11 Stephanopoulos just said?
12 A No.
13 Q You were aware, were you not, one
14 of the strategies of the White House was to
15 attack independent counsel since the
16 beginning of the Lewinsky scandal?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't agree with
19 that.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Do you disagree with what
22 Stephanopoulos said when I read to you,
307
1 "Absolutely, the President said he would
2 never resign."
3 Do you agree the President would
4 never resign?
5 A I agree with that.
6 Q The following statement: "I think
7 some around him are willing to take everyone
8 down with him."
9 Did you agree with that statement?
10 A I can't know what he is talking
11 about. I don't know what he means.
12 Q Have you ever heard anyone say that
13 in the White House?
14 A No, never.
15 Q Have you ever heard anyone say that
16 outside of the White House?
17 A Never.
18 Q Have you ever heard anyone say that
19 we are going to pursue an Ellen Rometsch
20 strategy?
21 A I never heard of Ellen Rometsch
22 before I read your excerpts here.
308
1 Q Did you ever hear anyone say we are
2 going to dig up dirt on Republicans and air
3 their dirty linen in public?
4 A Never. That doesn't mean I didn't
5 say it myself once or twice, but I never
6 heard anybody else.
7 Q When did you say it once or twice?
8 A I believe I said on Crossfire one
9 night that any Republican who questions the
10 President about his private life would have
11 to expect to be questioned in return.
12 Q When did you say that on Crossfire?
13 A I think I said that a few months
14 ago.
15 Q Who was on with you at the time?
16 A I forget.
17 Q When you say the Republicans would
18 have to be answering questions as well, you
19 are referring to the fact that information
20 could be exposed about their extramarital
21 affairs?
22 A I would be very much opposed to
309
1 doing that, but I would also remind
2 Republicans of a double standard, if they
3 judge somebody else, they should be prepared
4 to be judged on the same standards.
5 Q When you were at the White House,
6 you did have a file where you could turn to
7 get information about Newt Gingrich, correct?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, misstates
9 previous testimony.
10 THE WITNESS: I think you heard me
11 say I didn't have a file.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q But there was a file you could get
14 information, you knew where some might be
15 contained?
16 A You also asked me that before, I
17 also said before I knew of no such file.
18 Q Was there any information in any of
19 your files relating to extramarital affairs
20 by Republicans?
21 A Not in my files, no.
22 Q Has anyone ever discussed
310
1 extramarital affairs by Republicans when you
2 were with the White House?
3 A No.
4 Q Have you ever met a Terry Lenzner?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When did you meet Mr. Lenzner?
7 A About 27 years ago.
8 Q Under what circumstances?
9 A I was a young, new worker in the
10 Muskie presidential campaign and he came in
11 and I met him then.
12 Q What was he doing in the Muskie
13 campaign?
14 A I think he just came in to discuss
15 supporting Senator Muskie. I don't think he
16 was professionally hired.
17 Q What was he doing professionally at
18 the time?
19 A He was a lawyer. He had worked in
20 the Nixon administration, I think in this
21 legal services. I think he was head of the
22 legal services for the Nixon administration.
311
1 Q Was he doing private
2 investigations?
3 A No.
4 Q Did there come a point in time when
5 you learned Mr. Lenzner started to do private
6 investigations?
7 A Yes.
8 Q When was that?
9 A Gosh, a long time ago when he
10 started his firm. I knew about that.
11 Q Have you ever had an opportunity,
12 either yourself any business entity that you
13 have been associated with use Mr. Lenzner's
14 services?
15 A Yes.
16 Q His private investigation services?
17 A Um-hum.
18 Q Are you or your firm currently
19 using Mr. Lenzner for private investigator
20 services.
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, you are
22 intruding into attorney-client privilege. In
312
1 our conversations, you agreed you wouldn't do
2 that.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not asking a
4 particular client or particular matter, I am
5 asking Mr. Davis about Mr. Lenzner.
6 THE WITNESS: Can I consult with my
7 attorney here please?
8 (Discussion off the record)
9 THE WITNESS: I think I am not
10 going -- could you repeat the question,
11 please?
12 (The reporter read the record as
13 requested.)
14 MR. MILLS: I will allow the
15 witness to answer the question to the extent
16 that it is a yes or no answer as to whether
17 the firm or Mr. Davis has engaged
18 Mr. Lenzner. But to allow any further
19 inquiry into that would violate attorney work
20 product privileges and would be a breach of
21 client confidences and ethics, and you know
22 that.
313
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's not get into
2 other things.
3 THE WITNESS: The answer is no.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q The answer is no to what?
6 A To your question.
7 Q Whether you or your firm are
8 currently engaging Lenzner services?
9 A The answer is no.
10 Q Do you know of any other --
11 A Excuse me, excuse me. Or your
12 firm. I can't speak for every attorney in
13 the firm, every partner in the firm. They
14 may be doing it without my knowledge. To the
15 best of my knowledge, no.
16 Q Do you know whether any other
17 person or entity has engaged Mr. Lenzner's
18 services currently?
19 A In my firm?
20 Q Anywhere else?
21 A I have read in the newspapers that
22 he has been retained by Mr. Kendall, but only
314
1 because I read it in the newspaper.
2 Q Have you ever discussed any of the
3 Clinton controversies with Mr. Lenzner,
4 campaign finance, Filegate, Travelgate,
5 Monicagate?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond?
9 A Can we take a one minute break? I
10 promise just one minute for one quick phone
11 call. It is from my wife.
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video
13 record at 4:15.
14 (Discussion off the record)
15 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
16 record at 4:19.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you ever discussed the use of
19 Mr. Lenzner by David Kendall with anyone?
20 A No.
21 Q Do you ever any idea what
22 Mr. Lenzner is doing on behalf of these
315
1 lawyers of the President?
2 A I read in the newspapers, that is
3 all.
4 Q Have you ever received any
5 information from Mr. Lenzner about any of the
6 Clinton controversies?
7 A Never.
8 Q Do you know of anyone who has?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you ever heard of anyone by
11 the name of Jack Palladino?
12 A I think I have heard of him through
13 reading about him in the newspapers and
14 seeing him on the list of one of your papers.
15 Q Have you ever met him?
16 A No.
17 Q Have you ever talked to him?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you ever met or talked with
20 somebody by the name of Gloria Southerland?
21 A No.
22 Q If I tell you she is the wife of
316
1 Jack Palladino, would that ring a bell?
2 A It ring a bell.
3 Q Have you ever met anyone by the
4 name of Anthony Pellicano?
5 A No.
6 Q Have you ever talked to him?
7 A No.
8 Q You are aware that President
9 Clinton's campaigns in 1992 employed private
10 investigators?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
12 THE WITNESS: Am I aware of that as
13 I sit here today?
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Yes.
16 A No.
17 Q Has anyone ever told you that?
18 A No.
19 Q In the last six months have you had
20 any conversation with Dick Morris?
21 A In the last six months?
22 Q Yes.
317
1 A No.
2 Q Have you been on any TV shows with
3 him?
4 A No.
5 Q Has the White House ever sent you
6 any information about Dick Morris?
7 A No.
8 Q Have you ever visited the premises
9 of the Education Information Project?
10 A I never heard of it.
11 Q EIP?
12 A Never heard of it.
13 Q Have you ever visited the office or
14 personnel address of James Carville?
15 A No.
16 Q Have you ever had dinner with James
17 Carville?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you talked to Mr. Carville in
20 the last six months?
21 A The last six months? I think once.
22 Q When was that?
318
1 A I can't remember. Probably in the
2 first month or so out of the White House.
3 Q Did you call him or he call you?
4 A I think I called him.
5 Q Why did you call him?
6 A I think I called him to ask him a
7 question on whether one of the issues that I
8 had been asked about. I forget.
9 Q Are you aware that he keeps files
10 on various persons and entities?
11 A I have no knowledge of his
12 operation other than what I read about in the
13 newspaper.
14 Q Have you ever asked him to send you
15 any information?
16 A No.
17 Q Do you know of anyone who he has
18 sent information to?
19 A No, I don't.
20 Q Have you purposely tried to stay
21 away from Mr. Carville?
22 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
319
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You can respond.
3 A What do you mean by stay away?
4 Q Not have contact with him? Has
5 there been a conscious decision to keep a
6 distance?
7 A I wouldn't describe it that way.
8 Q How would you describe it?
9 A I saw no need to call him or talk
10 with him, so I didn't.
11 Q You have heard of his statements
12 where he has mocked Ken Starr's religion;
13 have you not?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
15 THE WITNESS: I was unaware of
16 that.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Where he says that Ken Starr prays
19 down at the Potomac to keep all of the
20 fornicators out of Washington, you heard that
21 statement?
22 A I think I may have heard him say
320
1 that.
2 Q Have you heard him make statements
3 that threaten to break Starr's kneecaps?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did you hear him make statements to
8 the effect that he was going to wage war on
9 Starr?
10 A I have heard him say that.
11 Q The statements you have heard, that
12 is not your style; is it?
13 A No, it is not.
14 Q You don't approve of those
15 statements; do you?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, what
17 Mr. Davis approves or doesn't approve of has
18 nothing to do with this lawsuit.
19 THE WITNESS: It is also not my
20 style to judge other people. I wouldn't do
21 it myself.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
321
1 Q You don't approve of what
2 Mr. Carville said; do you?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection asked and
4 answered.
5 THE WITNESS: It is not my place to
6 say I approve or disapprove of what anybody
7 else does. I can say most certainly I would
8 not use that rhetoric, and I haven't used
9 that rhetoric.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Why wouldn't you use that rhetoric?
12 A I am not comfortable with that. I
13 try to be factual. There are times that I
14 have gone beyond being factual with
15 Mr. Starr, and I have regretted it.
16 Q So you don't consider Mr. Carville
17 to be factual?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection.
19 THE WITNESS: I am not going to
20 characterize anybody else. I will tell you
21 what I think.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
322
1 Q That is a very provocative
2 approach, is it not, those kind of
3 statements?
4 A Ask me what I think, and I will
5 tell you. I don't like being provocative
6 unless I can do it with facts that I can
7 support.
8 Q You try to be a gentleman?
9 A I try to be factual and be
10 accurate.
11 Q You try to be a gentleman?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
13 THE WITNESS: My definition of
14 being a gentleman is to respect an honest
15 different of an opinion as long as both
16 parties are trying to be fair.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You don't call people names?
19 A I try not to. Sometimes I do.
20 Q You don't make fun of people's
21 religions?
22 A I try not to.
323
1 MR. MILLS: Objection to relevancy.
2 This whole line of questioning.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Join.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You don't threaten people do you?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't, but I wanted
8 to say for the record that any of the answers
9 for any of those questions, I want it to be
10 clear that I am not even slightly inferring
11 that Mr. Carville has done any of the things
12 that you just asked me about. I am not.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q I just asked you if you knew of the
15 statement that he was going to wage war on
16 Starr?
17 A I told you I knew of that
18 statement.
19 Q That is a threat; is it not?
20 A I would not characterize anything
21 anybody else says as a characterization, and
22 I do not do that.
324
1 Q Statements about Starr praying down
2 at the Potomac to drive fornicators from
3 Washington, that is making fun of his
4 religion?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection. Irrelevant.
6 You are asking his opinion. He is a fact
7 witness. You can ask him fact questions.
8 THE WITNESS: I do want to answer
9 that. I am not saying it that way, but I am
10 not characterizing it that way or criticizing
11 Mr. Carville's right to have his own opinion.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q The reason you don't have much
14 contact with Mr. Carville is you don't want
15 to be associated with those type of
16 statements, right?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes fact
18 not in evidence. Mischaracterizes his
19 testimony.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Right?
21 THE WITNESS: No, that is not
22 correct.
325
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Those statements are rather low
3 class, aren't they?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
5 Argumentative.
6 MR. MILLS: Calls for an opinion.
7 THE WITNESS: What you described as
8 my style means that I would not characterize
9 what he says anymore than I like to
10 characterize what Mr. Starr does other than
11 associating Mr. Starr with judgments that I
12 disagree with. To the extent I go beyond
13 that, I regret it.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Has it come to your attention from
16 any source that Mr. Carville keeps files on
17 different persons and entities?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q I asked a different question. You
21 can respond.
22 A It has not come to my attention
326
1 other than what I read in the newspaper that
2 he has an office and does research. I keep
3 my own files, too, so it wouldn't surprise me
4 if he keeps files.
5 Q Are you aware that the White House
6 has sent documents to Carville from time to
7 time?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes
9 facts not in evidence.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You can respond.
12 A I think I read it in the newspaper.
13 That is all I remember.
14 Q Are you aware that Tom Janenda
15 previously worked for Carville on the Clinton
16 campaign in 1992?
17 A I don't think I knew that. I may
18 have read it.
19 Q Are you aware that Glen Weiner
20 worked for Carville at his Education
21 Information Project?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
327
1 foundation.
2 THE WITNESS: Is that the name of
3 Carville's organization?
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Yes.
6 A That shows you how I know. I may
7 be aware of that. Maybe that's where I know
8 the name. Glen Weiner was working for
9 Carville.
10 Q Have you ever discussed any of the
11 Clinton controversies with Mary Matalin?
12 A No, I would like to.
13 Q Why would you like to?
14 A She is a good debater.
15 Q Did you ever debate her?
16 A No.
17 Q Has she ever had you on her show?
18 A I have never been with her on her
19 show.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
21 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
22 Exhibit No. 5.
328
1 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 5
2 was marked for identification.)
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Have you ever seen this document
5 before?
6 A No.
7 MR. MILLS: I would like to counsel
8 the witness.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q This is a cover page of this
11 document which spans Bates numbers 12 00294
12 through and including 12 00302. The cover
13 page is from the First Lady's press office
14 from Lisa Caputo to James Carville.
15 Lanny seems to be happy. Why are
16 you happy?
17 A Because I read the first couple of
18 pages and then there is my piece.
19 Q You are quite flattered that it was
20 being sent to Mr. Carville by Lisa Caputo?
21 A Was this sent.
22 Q It seems to reflect that. Do you
329
1 know whether it was sent or not?
2 A I don't know if it was sent or not.
3 You can't tell at the number of pages. Oh,
4 nine pages. Huh?
5 Q Do you see where there is an
6 description of the top fax at to
7 (202) 456-7805, that is the number of the
8 First Lady's office, is it not?
9 A I don't know what the number is,
10 but I see 456.
11 Q That is a White House extension?
12 A I take your word for it.
13 Q Based on your experience?
14 A I don't know. There are other 456
15 numbers, I think.
16 Q If I stipulate that crimes have
17 been committed to Filegate, would you take my
18 word for it?
19 A No.
20 Q I want your testimony here then.
21 A I can't tell you for sure
22 that 456-7085 is a White House telephone
330
1 number. It looks like that way because of
2 the exchange.
3 Q That is a White House exchange?
4 A 456 is, I don't know about
5 the 7085.
6 Q Previously, you were laughing at
7 the fact that attached to this document is a
8 memorandum that you had written Safire and
9 D'Amato on Hillary Rodham Clinton: "Facts
10 versus 'Congenital' Innuendo."
11 MR. MILLS: Objection.
12 THE WITNESS: I wrote this as an
13 OpEd piece submitted to several newspapers.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q When did you write it?
16 A January of 1996.
17 Q Before you joined the White House?
18 A Considerably before I joined the
19 White House.
20 Q You provided a copy to the White
21 House at that time?
22 A I did. I sent it to the White
331
1 House.
2 Q Who did you send it to at the White
3 House?
4 A I sent it to the office of the
5 First Lady, and I think I sent it to
6 Mr. Lehane. Actually I sent it to Lynn
7 Cutler of the organization Back to Business.
8 Q At the time that you sent this
9 document to --
10 A No, I did not send it to the White
11 House. I sent it to Ms. Cutler, head of Back
12 to Business.
13 Q So the best of your knowledge, it
14 was never provided to the White House?
15 A Not by me.
16 Q But you never learned subsequent to
17 that time, other than just now, that this
18 document was in the possession of the White
19 House?
20 A I was told that she sent it over to
21 the White House. She thought it was rather
22 good.
332
1 Q Did you ever give any direction to
2 anyone at the White House that they could
3 disseminate your document, the one we are
4 referring to here?
5 A I never gave direction. I was
6 perfectly happy, that is why I sent it to
7 Lynn Cutler.
8 Q But you never told anyone at the
9 White House you can disseminate it how you
10 wish?
11 A I never spoke to anyone at the
12 White House about it. Perhaps Chris Lehane
13 later on. It was basically Lynn Cutler at
14 that time who was my contact point.
15 Q So before this document was sent by
16 the White House over to James Carville --
17 A Repeat.
18 Q Before this document was sent by
19 the First Lady's office to James Carville --
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, lack of
21 foundation.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I have not finished
333
1 my question.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Before this letter was sent by the
4 White House over to James Carville, you were
5 not consulted?
6 A I was not.
7 MR. MILLS: Objection, there is no
8 evidence that this was sent.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Now, this document that has been
11 written by you, Safire, D'Amato and Hillary
12 Rodham Clinton: "Facts versus 'Congenital'
13 Innuendo."
14 This is not a press clipping; is
15 it?
16 A No, this is not a press clipping.
17 Q It is not a press release?
18 A No, this is not a press release.
19 Q When you wrote it, it was not
20 intended to be a public document, was it?
21 A Yes, it was. I sent it to
22 newspapers for publication.
334
1 Q You didn't send it to all
2 newspapers?
3 A I sent it to several and they
4 didn't print it.
5 Q You never told the White House it
6 was a public document?
7 A I told Lynn Cutler that I sent it
8 to newspapers.
9 Q You never told the White House
10 itself?
11 A No.
12 Q Let's turn to the section of this
13 document called "The Travel Office." See
14 where it says: "The charge: Safire, D'Amato
15 and others accuse Mrs. Clinton of lying when
16 she denied, `ordering the firing,' of White
17 House Travel Office employees. They cite a
18 memorandum written by former White House aide
19 David Watkins as evidence of this lie, as if
20 it was the smoking gun that they had been
21 looking for.
22 "Fact: Mrs. Clinton's expressions
335
1 of concern about financial mismanagement in
2 the Travel Office, including a conversation
3 with Watkins, was disclosed by the White
4 House itself at its own initiative, 18 months
5 ago, in its 'Travel Office Management Review'
6 released July 2, 1993."
7 Where did you get that information?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
9 This whole line of questioning has no
10 relevance to the FBI files case.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You can respond.
13 A I got this information by reading
14 the Travel Office Management Review document.
15 Q Where did you get that document?
16 A I got it from Mark Fabiani.
17 Q At the White House?
18 A At the White House.
19 Q Did you get any more information
20 about the travel office matter from Fabiani?
21 A I think that is all.
22 Q Then you write: "These concerns
336
1 and her conversation with Watkins were also
2 disclosed in the March 1994 published
3 findings by the Justice Department's Office
4 of Professional Responsibility, (at pages 45
5 and 46), and the May 1994 report of the
6 General Accounting Office, (pages 53 to 54),
7 including the fact that Mrs. Clinton wanted
8 'our own people' in the Travel Office in
9 order to handle these management problems."
10 Where did you get that information?
11 A Mark Fabiani.
12 Q What document if any did he give
13 you from which you extracted that
14 information?
15 A Those documents.
16 Q The ones you just mentioned?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Then you go on to state:
19 "Mrs. Clinton says she remembers Watkins
20 telling her about the Peat Marwick findings
21 of substantial irregularities in the office,
22 being disturbed about them and communicating
337
1 her strong impression that personnel changes
2 were in order.
3 "However, she has stated in a
4 response to an inquiry transmitted by White
5 House counsel, that she did not `order' the
6 firings of the Travel Office employees. She
7 told Barbara Walters recently, 'I did not
8 make a decision. I did not direct anyone. I
9 was concerned. I expressed concerns.'"
10 Where did you get that information?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
12 reading, you skipped a sentence or so.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: The document speaks
14 for itself.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Where did you get that information?
17 A Mr. Fabiani.
18 Q What source of information did he
19 give you from which that was extracted?
20 A From what was extracted?
21 Q That information that I just read
22 you?
338
1 A There is a lot of information in
2 the paragraph.
3 Q Did it all come from this?
4 A From one of the --
5 Q From the Travel Office Management
6 Review?
7 A One of the three sources that I
8 mentioned. I believe it was the Travel
9 Office Management Review, by the way order
10 and conducted by the White House, which yes,
11 I said that and Justice Department's report
12 or the GAO report. Then there was a
13 transcript on the Barbara Walters interview
14 that I read.
15 Q Reading down for the rest of this
16 page up to page 00300, where you start
17 talking about billing records and White
18 Water, was there any other source of
19 information other than what you just
20 mentioned from which you extracted this
21 information, that you heard about?
22 A I have to read the rest of it to
339
1 see what I am citing. I am quoting from
2 Mr. Watkins' memo, a copy of the memo that I
3 got from Mr. Fabiani.
4 Q What memo did you get from
5 Mr. Fabiani?
6 A A copy of Mr. Watkins' memo. I
7 believe it may have been attached to the
8 White House review. I think he sent that as
9 part of the document that was the White House
10 review. I am not sure.
11 Or the memo may have been a
12 separate document he sent to me.
13 Q Was that Travel Office Management
14 Review; is that what you are referring to?
15 A Yes.
16 Q That was an internal White House
17 document?
18 A Yes. It was released to the press
19 at a press conference on July 2, 1993.
20 Q The memorandum concerning
21 Mr. Watkins, do you know whether or not the
22 White House got permission from Mr. Watkins
340
1 before that memo was sent to you?
2 A It was issued to the press, I think
3 it was released by the D'Amato Committee.
4 Did Senator D'Amato get permission --
5 Q I was asking about the White House?
6 A Do you know whether Senator D'Amato
7 got permission from Mr. Watkins before
8 releasing that memo?
9 Q I am not being deposed.
10 A Don't you think that is a relevant
11 question to all of your questions about
12 permission being asked?
13 Q We are not here to follow the
14 Socratic method here. We are here to answer
15 questions. I know you have your professorial
16 instincts.
17 A I will get killed after the next
18 break.
19 MR. MILLS: Let me consult with the
20 client for a minute.
21 THE WITNESS: I apologize.
22 (Discussion off the record)
341
1 THE WITNESS: Continue. What else
2 do you want to know about this?
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Same question I asked. Do you know
5 whether the White House procured the
6 permission of David Watkins before this
7 memorandum was sent to you?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q Was there any other source of the
10 information which you have recorded in this
11 document concerning Travelgate?
12 A Oh, I am supposed to keep reading.
13 MR. MILLS: Could you, for my
14 benefit, direct us to the portion of this for
15 your question?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: I am trying to save
17 time here. If the information was extracted
18 all from these reports he just mentioned, he
19 can say that.
20 If he got it from conversations
21 with Mr. Fabiani, he can say that or if there
22 is another source he can say that. So allow
342
1 him to review the document.
2 MR. MILLS: I am afraid I don't
3 understand your question, so I would like it
4 repeated, please.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let him review it
6 first.
7 (The reporter read the record as
8 requested.)
9 THE WITNESS: Up to the heading
10 billing records and White Water, was your
11 earlier predicate, right?
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Yes.
14 A No, it is just those three
15 documents plus the Watkins memorandum.
16 Q Have you ever seen notes taken by
17 Vince Foster on Hillary Clinton's role in
18 Travelgate?
19 A I don't think so.
20 Q Are you aware of any such notes?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance.
22 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of
343
1 them.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Do you know whether or not these
4 notes were withheld from government
5 investigators for a period of time?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection.
7 MR. MILLS: Objection.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I am not aware of
9 that at all.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q During the time that you were at
12 the White House, did you ever discuss with
13 anyone the role of Vince Foster in the White
14 House counsel's office?
15 A No.
16 Q Who currently occupies Vince
17 Foster's old office?
18 A I am not sure where his old office
19 was. Good question. If he was deputy White
20 House counsel, I think someone told me that
21 it is this current deputy White House
22 counsel's office.
344
1 Q Who is that?
2 A I think it is the current office
3 occupied by Cheryl Mills. Somebody told me
4 that, but I am not sure about that. Somebody
5 once told me that.
6 Q During the time that you worked in
7 the White House counsel's office, did you
8 ever see FBI files? I don't mean look at
9 them but see them physically in the office?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you ever see any document or
12 file labeled FBI?
13 A No.
14 Q Did you ever see FBI summary
15 reports?
16 A No.
17 MR. MILLS: Are you done with
18 Exhibit No. 5?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q During the time that you worked in
22 the White House, what did you understand
345
1 Mrs. Clinton's role to be professionally
2 speaking?
3 MR. MILLS: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you
5 mean by that question.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q What was the general understanding
8 in the White House about what Mrs. Clinton
9 did in terms of White House matters?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: My general
12 understanding about what --
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q What her role was at the White
15 House?
16 A I can describe her activities. I
17 don't know what you mean by the word role.
18 Q Other than living in the White
19 House, did she play any role in the operation
20 of the White House?
21 A Again, the word role is hard for me
22 to define for you. I would say her
346
1 activities were to represent the President's
2 policies across the country in speeches and
3 appearances, and I do believe that her wisdom
4 and her professional judgments are sought and
5 appreciated whenever she expresses them.
6 Q She did have, while you were at the
7 White House, operational duties though; did
8 she not?
9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: I was not close
11 enough to her office or her activities to
12 answer that question.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Are you aware of any directive by
15 Mrs. Clinton that she should not be spoken to
16 in the hallways of the White House or
17 Executive Office Building?
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form.
20 THE WITNESS: I never heard of
21 that.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
347
1 Q Were you aware of any White House
2 surveillance systems while you were at the
3 White House?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
5 THE WITNESS: Aside from Secret
6 Service exit/entry, metal detectors and
7 stuff, no.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Were you aware of any closed
10 circuit cameras that monitor certain parts of
11 the building?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection; relevance.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You can respond.
15 A No.
16 Q Did you ever hear anyone discuss
17 monitoring systems at the White House?
18 A No.
19 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Were you aware when you worked at
22 the White House any audio recordings of
348
1 events at the White House?
2 A No.
3 Q Did you always assume that visual
4 and audio communications were being monitored
5 in parts of the White House?
6 MR. MILLS: These assumptions are
7 totally irrelevant to the FBI files.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You can respond.
10 A I have no awareness of any of that.
11 Q Did you ever hear anyone say that
12 the phones are monitored?
13 A No, never. Are they?
14 Q Mr. Ickes thinks so.
15 A Not that I was aware of.
16 Q Did you ever have any discussions
17 with any White House security people where
18 security measures were discussed?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A Yes.
349
1 Q Who did you have discussions with?
2 A May I correct the last answer? I
3 had discussions on the subject of Secret
4 Service security measures with members of the
5 White House counsel's staff who were
6 assisting me in answering press inquiries
7 about the problems of certain Democratic
8 party fundraisers bringing guests to events
9 at the White House, where the guests appeared
10 to be in retrospect, inappropriate.
11 Q You wouldn't be referring to Johnny
12 Chung, would you, among others?
13 A In that instance, I would not be
14 referring to Johnny Chung, no. Excuse me. I
15 would be referring to Johnny Chung in context
16 of the radio address.
17 Q Have you ever worked with the Back
18 to Business group?
19 A I think I said that minutes ago.
20 Q Maybe I misunderstood. Did you
21 have any professional dealings with that
22 group?
350
1 A I don't know what you mean by
2 professional dealings. Define what you mean.
3 Q Tell me what dealings if any you
4 had other than to send her the memorandum we
5 identified as Exhibit No. 5?
6 A Your question?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you read it back?
8 (The reporter read the record as
9 requested.)
10 THE WITNESS: Very little contact
11 in the early days, before I wrote this
12 article. I called Miss Cutler and then I
13 sent her the article afterwards. Several
14 conversations, and that was about it.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Have you had any other contact with
17 that group in any other manner?
18 A No.
19 Q Are you aware that that group got
20 money from Johnny Chung?
21 A I am aware now, yes.
22 Q You were not aware of it at the
351
1 time that you dealt with Ms. Cutler?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
3 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. I
4 wouldn't know who Johnny Chung was.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Do you know if the Back to Business
7 group was a precursor to Carville's EIP?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lacks
9 foundations, relevancy, form.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't know one way
11 or the other.
12 I would like to correct one other
13 statement. I think I did have contact with
14 Back to Business every so often in the spring
15 and summer of '96 before I would go on a
16 television program. Once in awhile, I would
17 call Back to Business to see if they had any
18 clips or background information if I could
19 not reach Mr. Lehane.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q I take it there came a point in
22 time when you became aware of a White House
352
1 computer system by the name of WHODB?
2 A Yes. Mills.
3 Q When was that?
4 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
5 answered.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: It's for purposes of
7 laying the foundation for the next line of
8 questions.
9 THE WITNESS: I would say the first
10 couple of months of my tenure.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q How did you become aware of that
13 computer system?
14 A At a staff meeting.
15 Q What was the reason it was
16 discussed?
17 A I think a member of Congress,
18 Congressman MacIntosh, was putting out a lot
19 of accusations about it, and I heard it,
20 about it in that context.
21 Q Did anyone, before that, did you
22 know of that computer systems' existence?
353
1 A No.
2 Q Who was present at that meeting?
3 A It was a White House counsel's
4 meeting, as I recall.
5 Q Who was present?
6 A Members of the White House counsel
7 staff. There were a large number of people
8 present.
9 Q Tell me who.
10 A I am not going to be able to
11 remember more than a few names.
12 Q Whatever you remember?
13 A Jack Quinn, Sally Paxton, Cheryl
14 Mills. It has been such a turnover, I forget
15 who else may have been there.
16 Q Did anyone speak at that meeting?
17 A I think the subject that
18 Congressman MacIntosh came up --
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I will caution the
20 witness not to disclose the substance of
21 conversations at that meeting. You can
22 identify the general subject matter, which I
354
1 believe you have.
2 MR. MILLS: The question asked:
3 Was did anybody speak at the meeting and the
4 witness may answer yes or no to that
5 question.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, people spoke at
7 the meeting.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Was Marcia Scott at the meeting?
10 A No.
11 Q Was anyone from Mrs. Clinton's
12 office at the meeting?
13 A I don't believe so. This is a
14 White House counsel staff meeting, once a
15 week.
16 Q Did anyone describe at that meeting
17 what the WHODB computer database was?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, instruct
19 the witness not to disclose the substance of
20 the conversation.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: There is a court
22 order to get into what comprises the WHODB
355
1 computer.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: You are not entitled
3 to get privileged information, and I am
4 asserting privilege over that.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want it from a
6 lawyer, it is privileged.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: I am asserting a
8 privilege.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: If you have a
10 conversation with a lawyer, it is okay not to
11 reveal it.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: The judge asked that
13 we not engage in argument during these
14 depositions. I am trying not to.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I am not asking for
16 legal advice. I am asking for facts about
17 what comprises the WHODB computer, and the
18 Court ruled we are entitled to that.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I instructed the
20 witness. That is the end of it.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: It is not the end of
22 it, Miss Shapiro. We will certify it.
356
1 MR. MILLS: Consult with the
2 witness for a minute, please.
3 (Discussion off the record)
4 MR. MILLS: Can we have a minute to
5 consult among counsel?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, let the record
7 reflect that we will be moving, just as this
8 stands, to have you held in contempt.
9 MR. MILLS: I would like the video
10 operator to take us off the record.
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the
12 record at 4:54.
13 (Discussion off the record)
14 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
15 records at 5:07.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: You are free to
17 explore issues surrounding the WHODB with
18 Mr. Davis. He is not going to reveal the
19 substance of the conversation at counsel's
20 office that he identified.
21 If you want to try to get at
22 information through other kinds of questions
357
1 and explore his knowledge, you can do that.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Without waiving our
3 objections to your objection, because we were
4 not asking for advice. We were just simply
5 asking for what he was told, which would
6 constitute admissions from a defendant, the
7 White House, as to what WHODB comprises.
8 I stand by that. We are not asking
9 for advice. We just want factual
10 information. So you be sure you understand
11 that, as an experienced litigator, Mr. Davis.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: The objection stands
13 for the substance of those conversations.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: We will certify it.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Outside of that, you
16 are free to do so.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: The difference
18 between what I am asking for and you are
19 allowing him to answer, is that certain
20 statements may have been made which
21 contradict his understanding of what WHODB
22 is. I am entitled to learn of those
358
1 statements.
2 MS. SHAPIRO: The privilege stands.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: What is the
4 privilege?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: The privilege I am
6 asserting. That it is subject to
7 attorney-client privilege, presidential
8 communications privilege and potentially work
9 product privilege.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Is it your position
11 that anything ever uttered by an attorney in
12 the White House is privileged.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: No, that is not my
14 position.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: What is your
16 position?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: My position is it is
18 privileged conversation, and I am instructing
19 him not to discuss the substance of that
20 conversation. If you want to explore
21 questions about his knowledge, you are free
22 to do so. But it is a waste of time to --
359
1 MR. KLAYMAN: It is not a waste of
2 time. I wanted it on the record so the Court
3 could understand when you are doing here,
4 which is obstructing this deposition.
5 I am not asking for a legal opinion
6 as to whether WHODB is legal as discussed in
7 this meeting. I am not asking for any kind
8 of evaluation of WHODB in terms of its merits
9 or worth or whatever the case may be.
10 I am just asking for a simple
11 recitation of what it is from the mouths of
12 people in the White House.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: The privilege is not
14 subject to what you are interested or not
15 interested in. The privilege applies --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: My previous notice of
17 how we intend to move stands.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: That is fine. Let's
19 move on.
20 THE WITNESS: What is the question
21 on the table?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
360
1 Q What is your understanding of what
2 WHODB is?
3 A My understanding is that WHODB was
4 a collection of names from various
5 constituent lists that would enable the White
6 House to track individuals who should be
7 invited to meetings and briefings, and also
8 social events, and to keep in touch with
9 constituencies who might be supportive of the
10 President's policy.
11 Q Do you know who conceived of the
12 WHODB?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q Do you know of anyone who does know
15 that?
16 A No, I do not.
17 Q Have you ever heard anyone express
18 their understanding who conceived the WHODB?
19 A I vaguely remember reading a
20 newspaper articles about it. But the answer
21 is no, I don't remember specifically.
22 Q What do you remember from the
361
1 newspaper articles?
2 A I don't remember particular names
3 associated with WHODB. I remember reading
4 about the name Marcia Scott as being involved
5 in it, and that is about all.
6 Q Is Marcia Scott still at the White
7 House?
8 A I believe so.
9 Q What is her job title?
10 A I don't know.
11 Q Do you know what her duties and
12 responsibilities were when you worked there?
13 A I think something to do with
14 personnel.
15 Q Do you know what they are now?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q Have you had any contact with
18 Marcia Scott since you left?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Under what circumstances?
21 A A big hello at a restaurant I
22 frequent, and friendly social conversation.
362
1 Q What restaurant is that?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection relevancy.
3 THE WITNESS: How does that relate
4 to the FBI files?
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Is this a place where the White
7 House people hang out?
8 A I don't know. It is place I like
9 to go to lunch.
10 Q Do White House people go there from
11 time to time?
12 A There are Republicans as well as
13 Democrats, I think.
14 Q Is that The Palm?
15 A No, the Oval Room on Connecticut
16 Avenue.
17 Q Who usually comes together at the
18 Oval Room from the White House?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A I don't think there is a usually I
363
1 can give you an answer to. I have seen White
2 House people there, but I have seen lots of
3 people there.
4 Q Who have you seen there?
5 A I have never seen you there.
6 Q I have never been invited.
7 A I saw Marcia there a couple of
8 times since I left the White House. I have
9 seen, I can't remember who else I have seen
10 from the White House. I think I saw Terry
11 O'Donnell last week.
12 Q Ever see Terry Lenzner in there?
13 A No.
14 Q Have you ever seen Carville there?
15 A No.
16 Q Stephanopoulos?
17 A No.
18 Q Any reporters from Salon magazine?
19 A No. I don't know any.
20 Q Joe Connison?
21 A I wouldn't know.
22 Q Sidney Blumenthal?
364
1 A At the Oval Room?
2 Q Yes.
3 A No.
4 Q Now, in terms of the WHODB, are you
5 aware of what information can be kept on this
6 database?
7 A Am I aware of what information can
8 be kept?
9 Q Is kept on this database?
10 A Is kept?
11 Q Yes.
12 A Or can be kept?
13 Q Let's start with is kept and then
14 we will get to can be?
15 A Based upon very superficial
16 knowledge here, I would say they were lists
17 of constituent groups, ethnic, economic
18 constituent groups, social lists, people that
19 attended social functions in the White House,
20 things like that.
21 Q Who paid for the WHODB?
22 A I believe it was paid out of the
365
1 budget of the White House. But that comes
2 from the public records. I don't have any
3 independent knowledge of that.
4 Q U.S. taxpayers paid for WHODB?
5 MR. MILLS: Objection.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q To the best of your knowledge?
8 A Based upon my vague memory of what
9 I read in the newspapers, I believe it came
10 out of the budget of the White House which
11 would be funded by U.S. taxpayers.
12 Q Do you have a question whether or
13 not that is legal?
14 A My opinion?
15 Q Yes.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, calls for a
17 legal conclusion. The witness is not here to
18 render a legal conclusion.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You can respond.
21 A You are asking my opinion if it was
22 legal if it was paid for by taxpayer funds?
366
1 Q Yes.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is it legal?
4 A You want me to say yes a second
5 time?
6 Q What is your opinion?
7 A I just said yes.
8 Q Why is it legal?
9 A I think it is an appropriate
10 function in this White House, as well as
11 previous White Houses, to track constituent
12 groups, invite them to come in, try to be
13 even handed about who is invited and get
14 support for the President's policies.
15 I know that the Reagan White House
16 set up the Office of Public Liaison for that
17 purpose, invited people in to support
18 President Reagan's policies, using taxpayer
19 funds to do it. I don't believe your
20 organization sued the Reagan Administration
21 on the same argument.
22 Q We were not in existence then.
367
1 A If you had been in existence, would
2 you have sued them?
3 Q If they were doing something wrong.
4 If we had a means.
5 A Anyway, I think it is perfectly
6 appropriate and legal, based on what I read
7 in the newspapers.
8 Q Are you aware whether or not the
9 Bush White House had WHODB?
10 A I am not aware of it one way or the
11 other.
12 Q Do you know what kind of a system,
13 if any, the Bush White House had to track
14 constituents?
15 A I know they had the office of
16 Public Liaison operating and inviting people
17 to come to briefings. Of that I know,
18 because I remember reading about it.
19 Q I am talking about a database,
20 tracking constituents?
21 A I don't know how the Bush or Reagan
22 White Houses got their lists to invite
368
1 thousands of people to come to briefings. So
2 if it wasn't a database, it came from
3 somewhere else.
4 Q Do you know how data is stored on
5 WHODB?
6 A No, I don't.
7 Q Are you aware that it tracks people
8 by name, Social Security number, race,
9 religion, sex, political affiliation and a
10 comments section?
11 A I have very little knowledge about
12 WHODB so most of your questions I am going to
13 say based upon vague recollections from
14 reading the newspapers on every question you
15 ask me.
16 Q Do you know who had access to WHODB
17 when you were at the White House?
18 A Based upon vague recollections from
19 reading the newspapers, I don't have any
20 knowledge of that.
21 Q How many meetings were you at where
22 WHODB was discussed?
369
1 A I can't recall the exact number.
2 Q Roughly speaking?
3 A Maybe a dozen.
4 Q How long did each of these meetings
5 last, approximately?
6 A The meetings were White House
7 counsel's meetings and the discussion on
8 WHODB usually lasted about 30 seconds.
9 Q Are aware of any decision by the
10 White House to withhold documents from
11 Congressional investigators in the public
12 detailing Mrs. Clinton and the President's
13 involvement with WHODB?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, irrelevant,
15 outside the scope of the subpoena.
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Who are you
18 representing, Mr. Davis or the White House?
19 MR. MILLS: I only represent
20 Mr. Davis, but I have objections to you
21 making inquiries of anything outside of the
22 scope.
370
1 MS. SHAPIRO: I will join the
2 objection just to make it clear.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I wouldn't want you
4 to miss an opportunity.
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Do you know how WHODB can be
8 accessed, how an individual wants to get on
9 to that database and can access it?
10 A Mr. Klayman, there is a limited
11 amount of time here. I will keep repeating
12 for you, so that you don't waste your time:
13 I have very limited knowledge of this issue
14 based upon a superficial and vague memory of
15 reading newspapers about WHODB. So, I will
16 continue to answer I really don't know the
17 answers to these questions.
18 Q Is this something that you didn't
19 want to have much information about when you
20 worked at the White House?
21 A No, it had nothing to do with my
22 desires. It was not on my watch or part of
371
1 my subject area.
2 Q Are you aware of how names are
3 obtained to put on WHODB?
4 A Same answer to the previous
5 question. I am not aware because I have very
6 little knowledge.
7 Q Do you have any information as to
8 how information contained on WHODB is used?
9 A Vague recollection from reading
10 newspapers, I believe it was used to invite
11 people to the White House for briefings on
12 policy issues and for social occasions and to
13 insure that there was an even handed approach
14 to inviting people from constituent groups.
15 Q Are you aware that data from WHODB
16 is sent to an outside supplier of the White
17 House for mailings and that that data is then
18 transferred to the Democratic national
19 Committee?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes fact
21 not in evidence, no foundation.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection
372
1 and form.
2 THE WITNESS: Not aware.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Are you aware WHODB obtains name
5 from the Democratic National Committee?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
7 THE WITNESS: Vaguely aware that
8 some of the names on the WHODB were political
9 supporters of the administration and that
10 some of those names came from the DNC.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You are aware some of the names on
13 WHODB are individuals other than political
14 supporters of the administration?
15 A I think I said that several times
16 when I told you what comprises, as I remember
17 vaguely, the names that are on that WHODB.
18 Q The WHODB is integrated with the
19 Democratic National Committee database; is it
20 not?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, no
22 foundation, relevance.
373
1 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't know.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q In fact, the DNC can access the
4 WHODB database; can it not?
5 A I have no idea.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form,
7 relevancy.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q In fact, WHODB can access the DNC
10 database?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection lacks
12 foundation, relevancy, form.
13 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Are you aware of other databases at
16 the White House?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection vague.
18 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked
19 answered.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe his memory is
21 refreshed.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't think so.
374
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Do you know what the Office of
3 Records Management is in this White House?
4 A I have heard of it.
5 Q When did you first hear of it?
6 A I can't remember, sometime I was at
7 the White House, I think I heard that name or
8 saw it somewhere.
9 Q Did you ever have any dealings with
10 the Office of Records Management?
11 A I might have. What does it do?
12 Q Keeps records?
13 A Manages records, that makes sense.
14 Q Did you ever hear of Terry Good?
15 A Yes, I have heard the name. Where
16 does she work?
17 Q It is a him.
18 A That shows how well I know him. I
19 know the name, but I don't know what he does.
20 Q Did you ever have any dealings with
21 him at the White House or after you left?
22 A I might have, but I don't remember.
375
1 Q Do you know whether or not
2 individuals in the White House counsel's
3 office asked him to retrieve documents
4 concerning Linda Tripp?
5 A This is the first time I ever heard
6 that.
7 Q Same question with regard to Monica
8 Lewinsky?
9 A No, I would not know that.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Same question with regard to
13 Kathleen Willey?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection relevance.
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Do you have any information as to
18 whether or not the Office of Records
19 Management stored FBI files on behalf of the
20 Office of Personnel Security?
21 A I have no idea.
22 Q During the time that you were in
376
1 the White House, was there ever an
2 independent inquiry made as to whether or not
3 FBI files had been returned to the FBI?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, lacks
5 foundation.
6 THE WITNESS: Not to me there
7 wasn't.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Do you know if inquiries were made
10 to others?
11 A I have no idea.
12 Q Do you know whether the White House
13 ever procured your FBI file?
14 A I was subjected to an FBI
15 background check, and I think they call it a
16 field check. I don't know whether that
17 involves obtaining my file or not.
18 Q Do you have any knowledge as to
19 whether or not the FBI file of James Carville
20 was ever obtained by the White House?
21 A I have no knowledge of that.
22 Q Why is that funny?
377
1 A I just don't know why the White
2 House would be interested in James Carville's
3 FBI file.
4 Q What leads you to believe that?
5 A I said I don't know why, I didn't
6 say I believed anything.
7 Q Because he is an ally of Clintons
8 and it is only with regard to perceived
9 adversaries that they have on interest.
10 MR. MILLS: Objection, it calls for
11 speculation.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Is that the reason?
15 A I am not going to speculate.
16 Q Do you know Mark Siegel?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q How did you get to know Mark
19 Siegel?
20 A He is a very dear friend.
21 Q Have you ever worked professionally
22 with Mark Siegel?
378
1 A Yes, I have.
2 Q In what context?
3 A He and I worked together for the
4 government of Pakistan on a lobbying effort
5 and a few other matters.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to make
7 an objection, go do it, but stop it with the
8 pen. It is a little too obvious.
9 THE WITNESS: He wants me to stop
10 twitching.
11 MR. MILLS: I am going to object to
12 any questions into Mr. Davis' private legal
13 representation, including the government of
14 Pakistan.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Just don't hit him
16 with the pen, I don't want you to hurt him.
17 MR. MILLS: The pen is mightier
18 than the sword.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Have you ever gathered information
21 with Mr. Siegel on Chairman Dan Burton?
22 A Absolutely not.
379
1 Q Do you know whether Mr. Siegel has?
2 A I read a newspaper article that
3 Mr. Siegel reported that Mr. Burton had
4 threatened him because of a lack of help on
5 fundraising, and said that if you don't raise
6 money, I am going to make you persona non
7 grata in my office. I read about that in the
8 newspaper.
9 Q Do you have any direct knowledge as
10 to whether that, in fact, happened?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you know whether Mr. Siegel
13 keeps a file on chairman Dan Burton?
14 A I read about it in the newspapers.
15 Aside from that, no.
16 Q You have read about a file he keeps
17 on Burton in the newspapers?
18 A I read that he had a copy of a memo
19 that he received from the government of
20 Pakistan telling him that Congressman Burton
21 had complained about his lack of cooperation
22 on raising money for Congressman Burton and
380
1 had threatened him to put pressure on him to
2 raise money.
3 Q Have you ever received any
4 information from the White House concerning
5 Dan Burton, since you left?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
7 THE WITNESS: On any subject?
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q On any subject.
10 A No, I don't believe so.
11 Q Have you ever received any
12 information of any kind from the Justice
13 Department since you left the White House?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague and
15 the scope to the extent it takes in, requires
16 Mr. Davis to answer about any meetings or
17 communications with the Justice Department
18 related to these legal proceedings.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: That is fine.
20 Anything other than that.
21 THE WITNESS: Other than my legal
22 practice, no.
381
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Has Janet Reno's office sent you
3 any materials for use in your various media
4 appearances?
5 A Other than my legal practice?
6 Q Yes.
7 A No.
8 Q Since the time you left the White
9 House, have you ever had contact on anything
10 other than your legal practice with the
11 Public Integrity Section of the Justice
12 Department?
13 A No.
14 Q With the Office of Professional
15 Responsibility?
16 A With the Office of --
17 Q Professional Responsibility?
18 A What do you mean by office? An
19 individual who works there?
20 Q Yes.
21 A Have I had any contact?
22 Q Yes.
382
1 A Aside from a social occasion?
2 Q Yes.
3 A No.
4 Q Do you know of anyone in the last
5 six months who has provided any information
6 to the District of Columbia bar concerning
7 Judge Kenneth Starr?
8 A No.
9 Q Or his staff?
10 A No.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did you ever talk to Mark Siegel
14 about chairman Dan Burton while you were at
15 the White House?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection asked and
17 answered.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Different question. What did you
21 discuss with Mr. Siegel?
22 A I called him and told him that a
383
1 reporter had asked me whether or not I knew
2 about the incident that had been described in
3 the newspaper that morning, and that I had
4 said absolutely not, and I wanted him to know
5 that is what I had said and that would be
6 printed in the next day's newspaper.
7 Q Did you send that reporter any
8 information about Burton?
9 A No, I answered his question. He
10 was a reporter for the Washington Times, as I
11 recall.
12 Q What reporter was that?
13 A His name?
14 Q Yes.
15 A I think it was Roger Archibald.
16 Q George Archibald?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Have you ever sent any materials to
19 George Archibald?
20 A Materials? What do you mean by
21 materials?
22 Q Documents, whatever?
384
1 A I believe the day after his story
2 was written, I called his editor and
3 complained about the inaccurate headline and
4 lead of the story.
5 Q Which story?
6 A About the Mark Siegel incident.
7 Q What was it that was inaccurate?
8 A The headline and the lead indicated
9 that I had repudiated Mr. Siegel's veracity
10 and distanced himself from this his charge
11 because I denied knowing anything about what
12 he was talking about. That was inaccurate.
13 The Washington Times retracted the story the
14 next day.
15 Q What was it that you knew about
16 Mr. Siegel's statement that made
17 Mr. Archibald's statements inaccurate?
18 A He suggested that I was repudiating
19 the veracity of Mr. Siegel. That was false.
20 The headline indicated that I was distancing
21 myself from Mr. Siegel because of his lack of
22 credibility. That was also false.
385
1 Q You didn't vouch for veracity of
2 Mr. Siegel's statements; did you?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
4 THE WITNESS: I didn't know one way
5 or the other, although I vouch for the
6 veracity of Mr. Siegel with everything that I
7 can possibly state. He is a totally honest
8 and totally truthful person. If he says
9 something happens, I believe it.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q In the course of your various
12 experiences with the White House, I take it
13 you have not had much contact with George
14 Stephanopoulos?
15 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
16 answered as to all of his contacts with
17 Mr. Stephanopoulos.
18 THE WITNESS: Every so often. I
19 was just talking to him the other night.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q What were you talking to him the
22 other night about?
386
1 A We were on Nightline together.
2 Q Other than being on a television
3 show and talking on camera, have you talked
4 to Mr. Stephanopoulos in the last six months?
5 A I think you asked me that. A few
6 times on the telephone.
7 Q When was that?
8 A It is hard to remember. Just a few
9 times before one of his appearances he might
10 call me and ask my opinion on this or that.
11 Q Which appearances are we talking
12 about?
13 A This Week, ABC This Week.
14 Q What specifically did he ask your
15 opinion about?
16 A I can't remember.
17 MR. MILLS: Objections, irrelevant.
18 THE WITNESS: I really don't
19 remember.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Was it relating to the Clinton
22 controversies?
387
1 A Yes. I thought you meant
2 specifically, but yes, generally, the Clinton
3 controversies.
4 Q Did you ever discuss with him
5 allegations that the Clinton White House was
6 going to use information from government
7 files?
8 A No.
9 Q Or Clinton allies?
10 A No.
11 Q To the best of your knowledge, who
12 are the Clinton allies, other than
13 individuals in the White House?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, calls for
15 speculation.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A That is a very vague question.
20 Q Who are the people closest to the
21 President other than the ones working in the
22 White House?
388
1 MR. MILLS: Objection, vague calls
2 for speculation.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: That is fine, this is
4 discovery.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q This is your opinion. This is just
7 discovery.
8 A Who in the world?
9 Q Who in the world?
10 A The whole world?
11 Q I am not talking about foreign
12 leaders or anything like that. I am talking
13 about in the United States who have been
14 political volunteers or operatives or
15 whatever?
16 A I really have no idea how to answer
17 that question. Who do I know who are close
18 to the President?
19 Q Yes.
20 A Harold Ickes, I know, is close to
21 the President. Mickey Kantor, I know, is
22 close to the President. Harry Thomason, I
389
1 know slightly -- is close to the President.
2 You know, a bunch of other people I know, but
3 I can't think of them right now.
4 Q Did you ever talk to Harry Thomason
5 about Travelgate?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you ever talk to Harry Thomason
8 about Filegate?
9 A No.
10 Q Billy Dale?
11 A No.
12 Q Campaign Finance Scam?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection, irrelevant.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Join the objection.
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Did you ever talk to Mrs. Vicki
18 Lawrence about the Arlington controversy?
19 A No.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Have you talked to Sidney
390
1 Blumenthal since you left the White House?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You may respond.
5 A Yes.
6 Q On what occasions?
7 A A couple of meetings, one or two
8 telephone conversations.
9 Q Where were the meetings?
10 A At the White House.
11 Q Why did you have a meeting with
12 Mr. Blumenthal at the White House?
13 A It was a group meeting, he was
14 there.
15 Q Who was present?
16 A Lanny Breuer, Paul Begala, I forget
17 who besides that. About four or five people.
18 Q When did that meeting take place?
19 A I think probably one in the kind of
20 April time period, and another one maybe May
21 or June.
22 Q How many meetings were there?
391
1 A Just two.
2 Q What was discussed at the first
3 meeting?
4 A I was about to go on a Sunday talk
5 show, and I wanted to know what had happened
6 that week and what stories were important,
7 and what the White House had said about those
8 stories. So I asked for an opportunity to
9 come in an get information to prepare for the
10 Sunday show.
11 Q During that meeting, were any
12 documents provided to you?
13 A At the first meeting, I asked for
14 some newspaper clips about -- I read stories
15 about two prosecutors who worked for
16 Mr. Starr, and their records -- alleged
17 records of misconduct.
18 I just read newspaper articles
19 about the both of them. I expected that I
20 would be asked about them. I was asking for
21 copies of those newspaper articles from their
22 Nexus -- from the Nexus database that they
392
1 had, which I no longer had access to.
2 Q You were provided articles?
3 A I was.
4 Q Who gave you the articles?
5 A I forget who the in the room got
6 them from me. I asked somebody to go get
7 them from Nexus and I think somebody did and
8 handed me the two articles.
9 Q Which office did you ask to get you
10 the articles?
11 A I think we were sitting in
12 Mr. Breuer's office.
13 Q White House Counsel's Office got
14 the articles for you?
15 A I asked for the Nexus database from
16 someone in the meeting, and I believe it was
17 obtained right there from whoever got into
18 Nexus. I don't remember who did it for me,
19 but you know, there are computers that get
20 you right into Nexus.
21 Q What other documents did you ask
22 for?
393
1 A I asked whether there were any
2 public statements or positions taken about
3 some of the new stories that had been current
4 that week. I wanted to see what the White
5 House had issued so I could be accurate in
6 the comments I made the next day.
7 Q Were those documents provided to
8 you?
9 A I don't believe there were any, as
10 I recall, during that first meeting that had
11 been issued by the White House. I forget,
12 quite honestly. I don't think so.
13 Q Were any other documents provided
14 to you?
15 A Besides the Nexus newspaper
16 articles?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Clips, I asked for some clips. I
19 asked to read the clips.
20 Q Clips about what?
21 A Well, everyday there is -- there
22 are clips that are circulated in the White
394
1 House that have the major newspaper articles
2 in a stapled, we call them in clips. I don't
3 have the luxury of being able to read all
4 those newspapers like I used to, so I think I
5 went and sat and looked at the week's clips.
6 Q Where are those clips stored?
7 A They are circulated throughout the
8 White House. Some people keep them some
9 don't.
10 Q The two Starr prosecutors you are
11 talking about are Mr. Emick and Mr. Udolf?
12 A They ring a bell, those two names.
13 Q What else was discussed during the
14 meeting besides the alleged misconduct of
15 Mr. Emick and Mr. Udolf?
16 A We didn't actually talk about it as
17 I recall. I asked about it because I read
18 about it in newspaper. There may have been
19 one or two questions I asked about whether
20 the White House was saying anything about the
21 issue because I thought it would be asked to
22 of me on the Sunday talk show I was going to
395
1 be on. Beyond that, I don't think we talked
2 about it.
3 Q About what?
4 A The articles concerning those two
5 individuals.
6 Q Did you talk about anything else at
7 the meeting?
8 A I am sure we did. I asked what do
9 you think was going to be asked? What are
10 the facts? What have you done?
11 I can't remember specifically. It
12 was a long time ago. I can't remember what
13 show I was going to be on.
14 Q Was this during the period of the
15 Monica Lewinsky controversy?
16 A It must have been, yes.
17 Q Did you subsequently talk about
18 Emick and Mr. Udolf on this show?
19 A I forget. I think it was on Meet
20 the Press, but I forget. Check the
21 transcripts when I was on.
22 Q Do you know who submitted the bar
396
1 complaints against Mr. Starr and his deputies
2 recently?
3 A I think you asked me that four
4 minutes ago.
5 Q I asked you a different question.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
7 foundation.
8 THE WITNESS: The answer is: I
9 don't.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Have you heard anyone else talk
12 about it?
13 A No, I didn't even know that there
14 was a complaint against Mr. Starr. I read
15 something about in the paper something about
16 the bar investigating him.
17 Q Do you know how that came about?
18 A I have no idea.
19 Q Do you know of anyone who does have
20 an idea?
21 A No.
22 Q Was it Mr. Kendall who submitted
397
1 that complaint?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
3 answered.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Was it anyone in Williams and
7 Connolly that submitted that complaint?
8 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
9 answered.
10 THE WITNESS: If I say I don't
11 know, I mean I don't have any idea. I don't
12 know.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Was it Mr. Carville or his lawyer?
15 A Same answer.
16 MR. MILLS: Same objection.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Now, over the last six months, have
19 you had any conversation with Mr. Kendall or
20 anyone in his office?
21 A Or anyone in his office, in the
22 last six months, so that takes us back since
398
1 I left the White House?
2 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous.
3 You mean anybody at Williams and Connolly? I
4 believe he is at Williams and Connolly.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
6 MR. MILLS: I am asking in that it
7 invades Mr. Davis' legal client matters.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Absent legal matters?
10 A To my knowledge, no.
11 Q Have you ever been provided
12 information by anyone at Williams and
13 Connolly about the Clinton controversies?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
15 THE WITNESS: I believe the answer
16 is no. There is an outside chance that I got
17 a fax of one of those public statements that
18 we have issued to the press. But I believe I
19 got that from Jim Kennedy, but I think the
20 answer is no.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q What was discussed at that second
399
1 meeting that you had at the White House that
2 you just mentioned?
3 A I can't remember. The same kind of
4 meeting about what has happened? What is
5 likely to be asked? What have you guys done
6 about that issue? But I cannot remember. I
7 know that there were only two times that I
8 asked for a meeting.
9 Q Who was present at the second
10 meeting?
11 A I think the seconds meeting
12 Mr. Podesta was present in addition to the
13 others that I mentioned, Mr. Begala was
14 there, I believe Mr. Breuer was not there. I
15 can't really recall who was there.
16 Q During the time you were in the
17 White House, did you have any information
18 that related that related to Nolanda Hill?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection relevance.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to
22 foundation.
400
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Did you have any information that
3 referred or related in any way to Nolanda
4 Hill?
5 A I did not have any information, no.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Take a 30 second
7 break.
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video
9 record at 5:44.
10 (Discussion off the record.)
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
12 record at 5:47.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Have you ever heard anyone discuss
15 the alleged sexual proclivities of any
16 members of Judge Starr's staff?
17 A Never.
18 Q Have you ever read anything about
19 that?
20 A I don't think so.
21 Q Would you ever discuss anything
22 like that?
401
1 A Never.
2 Q Would you ever have anything to do
3 with anything like that?
4 A Never.
5 Q Do you know whether or not
6 Mr. Carville has?
7 A I don't.
8 Q Did you have any involvement in
9 preparing Mrs. Clinton for testimony before
10 the Grand Jury?
11 A No.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Do you have any involvement in
15 preparing Mrs. Clinton for testimony before
16 Judge Starr concerning Filegate?
17 MR. MILLS: Objection.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Do you know who did?
22 A No.
402
1 Q Are you aware that Mrs. Clinton was
2 interviewed by Judge Starr under oath?
3 A Yes.
4 Q How did you become aware of that?
5 A I can't remember when it happened,
6 but I think it happened while I was at the
7 White House. But I do remember reading about
8 it in the newspaper.
9 Q Do you know how long Judge Starr
10 met with Mrs. Clinton?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you know what was discussed?
13 A I vaguely remember reading in the
14 newspaper that it was about something to do
15 with White Water.
16 Q Did you learn inside the White
17 House what was discussed?
18 A No, I did not.
19 Q Were you insulated from things like
20 that?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection.
22 THE WITNESS: I would not use the
403
1 word insulated. It was not my responsibility
2 and that information was not shared with me.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Have you ever had any communication
5 with a Kenneth Bacon?
6 A No.
7 Q Do you know Mr. Bacon?
8 A What do you mean by communication?
9 Q Written, oral?
10 A Yes.
11 Q When did that occur?
12 A I shook his hand once.
13 Q Where was that?
14 A In the holding room at Meet the
15 Press before I went on.
16 Q Did you discuss anything with him?
17 A The weather and what we thought of
18 Tim Russert.
19 Q How long ago was that you saw
20 Mr. Bacon?
21 A I think about two appearances ago
22 on Meet the Press. Not the last one but the
404
1 one before that he was accompanying Secretary
2 Cohen, who was alone when I was in the
3 holding room. He introduced himself, and we
4 shook hands.
5 Q Was it is about the issue about
6 releasing information from Linda Tripp's
7 Pentagon file that they were appearing?
8 A The only thing we talked about was
9 the weather and Mr. Russert.
10 Q Were they there to discuss Linda
11 Tripp?
12 A Was Secretary Cohen on to discuss
13 Linda Tripp?
14 Q In part?
15 A No, I believe that was before that
16 story broke. I think he was talking about
17 Bosnia.
18 Q Have you ever had any other
19 communications with Kevin Bacon?
20 A No.
21 Q Have you ever had any conversation
22 with Clifford Bernath?
405
1 A No.
2 Q Have you ever had any
3 communications with secretary William Cohen's
4 chief of staff at the Department of Defense?
5 A I don't know even know the name of
6 the individual, no.
7 Q During the time that you were at
8 the White House, did you ever review any
9 personnel files?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Did you ever see your own personnel
13 file?
14 A I didn't know it existed. No.
15 Q During the period that you were at
16 the White House, did you ever keep a file or
17 a folder on the Arkansas project?
18 A No.
19 Q Was that information contained in
20 another folder concerning Whitewater?
21 MR. MILLS: Objection, assumes fact
22 not in evidence.
406
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Did you have any information that
3 related to the Arkansas project?
4 A I had some clips. It would
5 probably have been clips included in the
6 White Water.
7 Q Did you ever have any information
8 when you were at the White House on a Parker
9 Dozhier?
10 A Same answer.
11 Q Stephen Boynton?
12 A Same answer.
13 Q P.K. Holmes?
14 A I forget who he is.
15 Q An attorney in Arkansas, U.S.
16 attorney in Arkansas?
17 A I don't think so.
18 Q Have you ever had any
19 communications in the last six months with
20 Senator David Pryor?
21 A No.
22 Q Have you ever met Senator David
407
1 Pryor? Ex-Senator David Pryor?
2 A I can't remember, I don't think so.
3 Maybe I shook his hand once.
4 Q Have you been contacted by him with
5 regard to the current legal defense fund of
6 President Clinton?
7 A No.
8 Q Have you ever had any communication
9 with discuss Ann McDougall?
10 A No.
11 Q Have you ever had any communication
12 with Mark Garigose, a lawyer?
13 A Only over the television waves,
14 airwaves.
15 Q During the time that you were in
16 the White House, did you ever have any
17 contact with anyone from the FBI?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Who was that?
20 A I don't remember her name. She
21 interviewed me.
22 Q For your security clearance?
408
1 A Yes.
2 Q Is that it?
3 A That is it.
4 Q That is all of the contacts that
5 you had?
6 A That is it.
7 Q Have you ever had a conversation
8 with Caryn Mann, C-a-r-y-n, M-a-n-n, a tarot
9 card reader?
10 A Not as far as I know.
11 Q Have you ever had any communication
12 with Caryn Mann's son, Joshua Mann?
13 A No.
14 Q Have you ever had a communication
15 with J. Kendall Few?
16 A No.
17 Q Do you know of anyone who has?
18 A I know nobody who has.
19 Q Have you had ever had any
20 communications with Bob Mulholland
21 (phonetic)?
22 A No.
409
1 Q Do you know who he is?
2 A No.
3 Q A California Democratic
4 assemblyman? That ring a bell?
5 A Doesn't ring a bell.
6 Q Have you ever had any
7 communications with Murray Wass?
8 A The writer?
9 Q Yes.
10 A I think he may have called me once
11 or twice while I was working at the White
12 House.
13 Q What did he call you about?
14 A About a story that was running or
15 that I was working on I can't remember what.
16 Q Did you send him any materials?
17 A I don't think so.
18 Q Have you ever had in any
19 communication with Lars Erik-Nelson?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You talk to him frequently?
22 A No.
410
1 Q Did you have any communication with
2 him while you were at the White House?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you send him a document?
5 A I can't remember. There were so
6 many people who called me everyday. Some
7 asked for documents, clips, and statements
8 and some didn't. I am not going to be able
9 to remember specifically anybody.
10 Q Did you ever talk to him about
11 anything related to Filegate or Government
12 files?
13 A No.
14 Q Have you ever had any communication
15 with attorneys or personnel at Skadden and
16 Arps?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Under what circumstances?
19 A Under the circumstances of
20 responding to press inquiries about the Paula
21 Jones case, and since leaving the White
22 House, under circumstances of trying to
411
1 prepare for doing some of these television
2 shows on the subject of the Paula Jones case.
3 Q Who have you dealt with at Skadden,
4 Arps?
5 A Mr. Bennett, Miss Savrin, and one
6 or two other attorneys working on the Paula
7 Jones case.
8 Q During the time that you were at
9 the White House, did you ever send documents
10 or materials to Skadden, Arps?
11 A Once or twice.
12 Q Under what circumstances?
13 A I think Mr. Bennett asked me on
14 occasion if I would fax over to him
15 statements made on various issues.
16 I think, quite frankly, I misspoke.
17 That many of the occasions while I was at the
18 White House that I spoke to Mr. Bennett had
19 nothing to do with Paula Jones, who I had no
20 responsibility to talk about, but with Harold
21 Ickes, who was a client.
22 So the times I would send something
412
1 to Mr. Bennett would be pertaining to
2 Mr. Ickes.
3 Q Why would you, as a member of the
4 White House staff, send something to
5 Mr. Bennett, send something about Mr. Ickes
6 no longer employed by the White House?
7 A He asked for a public statement
8 that we put out and like any other citizen I
9 would accommodate a reporter or a citizen who
10 calls and asks me if I would get a copy of
11 something that we previously put out to the
12 press, I would accommodate and fax it for
13 them.
14 Q Specifically, what documents did
15 you send?
16 A I can't remember, but I think it
17 was at the time that Mr. Ickes was called
18 before the Senate committee, and that was an
19 issue that was being written about by
20 reporters. I think that was probably the
21 time.
22 Q Where were those documents kept?
413
1 A What documents?
2 Q That you sent to Bennett?
3 A Same place I kept --
4 Q In your files?
5 A I assume you are talking documents,
6 news clips and -- news clips and public
7 statements by the White House.
8 Q Are you worried he is going to hurt
9 himself with that? What files were they
10 taken out of specifically?
11 A I believe the file that I would
12 have had that in would be something
13 pertaining to the Thompson hearings because
14 Mr. Ickes was due to testify about, and we
15 may have made a statement about an issue.
16 In fact, the one that I
17 specifically remember faxing over there
18 pertained to the Warren Medoff testimony.
19 That was the story that had been written
20 about between Mr. Ickes faxing something
21 about fundraising to Mr. Medoff. I faxed
22 over to, I believe it was Ms. Savrin, the
414
1 public statement that I made that day.
2 Q Ms. Savrin asked you for
3 information concerning Warren Medoff?
4 A No. I think I initiated the call
5 because I wanted them to know what I was
6 saying about Mr. Ickes and the role he played
7 in that exchange with Mr. Medoff so I called
8 Ms. Savrin or Mr. Bennett and said I am about
9 to send a statement out, and I will fax you a
10 copy of the statement.
11 Q You knew that statement was stored
12 in the file of the Thompson committee?
13 MR. MILLS: Objection to the
14 characterization of the statement being
15 stored.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Maintained?
18 A I can now tell you that my ordinary
19 course of conduct would be to take that
20 statement and put it into the Thompson
21 hearing file.
22 Q When you put told Ms. Sherburne
415
1 that you were going to send her the statement
2 concerning Warren Medoff, you know where to
3 find the statement about Warren Medoff?
4 A Actually, at that point, I hadn't
5 even filed it. I went to the lobby and then
6 gave it to the press corps and I then went
7 back and called her and faxed it to her.
8 Q You intended to file it later in
9 the file on the Thompson Committee?
10 A I can't tell you specifically. I
11 did in normal course do that.
12 Q Did you contact Mr. Medoff before
13 you sent it off to Mr. Sarvin?
14 A This was not an article about
15 Mr. Medoff. This was an article about
16 Mr. Ickes.
17 Q Was Mr. Bennett worried about what
18 Mr. Ickes would say at the hearing?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevance.
20 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Have you ever worked on any
416
1 political campaigns that employed a private
2 investigator?
3 A I don't think so.
4 Q Do you know whether or not
5 Mr. Lenzner has ever done private
6 investigation work for political campaigns?
7 A I don't know.
8 Q Have you ever communicated with a
9 Nathan Marceca?
10 A Have I?
11 Q Yes.
12 A No.
13 Q Have you ever met Anthony Marceca?
14 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
15 answered.
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you ever discussed Filegate
19 with Dick Morris?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
21 answered.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I forgot.
417
1 THE WITNESS: I only met Mr. Morris
2 once, and I never discussed anything with
3 him.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Do you know whether or not
6 Mr. Lenzner investigated political
7 contributions generated by Charlie Trie?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q What do you know about that?
12 A I know he did.
13 Q Did you have any communication with
14 Mr. Lenzner about that?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you know whether or not
17 Mr. Lenzner has ever worked with Michael
18 Cardoza?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What do you know about that?
21 A I know he did work with Mr. Cardoza
22 as part of that investigation.
418
1 Q Do you know whether or not
2 Mr. Lenzner had ever discussed investigating
3 Senator Don Nichols and his wife?
4 A I only know it from the testimony
5 before the Senate committee.
6 Q Did you gather information to rebut
7 that allegation?
8 A No, I didn't.
9 Q In the context of your duties at
10 the White House?
11 A No, I didn't.
12 Q During the campaign finance hearing
13 of Senator Thompson, you actually were
14 present on the scene; were you not?
15 A Almost all of the time.
16 MR. MILLS: Objection, relevance.
17 Campaign finance hearings have nothing to do
18 with Filegate.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You gathered information to be able
21 to disseminate to the press concerning the
22 campaign finance hearings; did you not?
419
1 A Did I gather information?
2 Q Yes.
3 A Sometimes.
4 Q Who assisted you in gathering that
5 information?
6 A With respect to the campaign
7 finance hearings?
8 Q Yes.
9 A We previously have done this
10 before, but Mr. Breuer was my first point of
11 contact, and he would assist in gathering the
12 information.
13 Q You don't know whether or not
14 Mr. Breuer got some of the information which
15 he obtained for you from Mr. Lenzner; do you?
16 A I have no idea. It would surprise
17 me, but I have no idea.
18 Q Why would that surprise you?
19 A Because he dealt with his lawyers
20 and his lawyers reported back to him.
21 Q Have you ever had any communication
22 with Larry Potts?
420
1 A No.
2 Q Do you know who Larry Potts is?
3 A Refresh my recollection.
4 Q Ruby Ridge?
5 A Right, he is the --
6 Q I alleged to have given the shoot
7 to kill order?
8 A The FBI person. That is how I read
9 about it.
10 Q Have you ever had any contact with
11 him?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you know who he currently works
14 for?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you know whether he had any
17 involvement with the FBI files controversy?
18 A I have no idea.
19 Q Do you know that Mr. Lenzner met
20 with Mr. Ickes in the White House in 1996?
21 A I don't know -- I don't know that.
22 I vaguely remember at the hearing it being
421
1 mentioned, but I don't know that for sure.
2 Q Have you ever met the daughter of
3 Terry Lenzner?
4 A No.
5 Q Are you aware she worked at the
6 White House?
7 A No. When?
8 Q Did I hear something over there?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: No. You are hearing
10 things.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Did you ever deny to members of the
13 media that the White House coffees were
14 fundraisers?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you then, off the record, tell
17 reporters that, in fact, the White House
18 coffees were used to raise money?
19 MR. MILLS: Objection to the
20 questioning. Relevance.
21 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't say off
22 the record. I said on the record, that they
422
1 were used to motivate people to give money.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Did you ever say off the record in
4 reality they are used to raise money?
5 A I think I said it on the record
6 many times.
7 Q That they were used to raise money?
8 A Absolutely. They were used to
9 motivate people to support the campaign and
10 hopefully to raise money. I said that
11 repeatedly on the record. I didn't need to
12 go off the record on that.
13 Q In fact, you expressed your
14 dissatisfaction that that occurred?
15 A Absolutely not. I expressed my
16 enthusiastic support for it occurring.
17 Q Did you ever say otherwise to Tom
18 Galvin, reporter for the National Review?
19 A I most certainly did not.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I
21 will ask the court reporter to mark as
22 Exhibit No. 6.
423
1 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 6
2 was marked for identification.)
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Showing you Exhibit No. 6. What is
5 funny?
6 A What is funny is I am thinking we
7 are on the last run coming down the ski
8 slope, and I am tired and I have to
9 concentrate.
10 Q Hopefully we won't hit a tree.
11 A That is what I am thinking. Where
12 do you want me to look? When was this
13 written? Do you have a date on this?
14 June 22nd, okay.
15 MR. MILLS: Is there a question
16 concerning the document?
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Turn to page 30.
19 A Let me read it.
20 Q Excuse me, page 31.
21 A Right.
22 Q I turn your attention to the second
424
1 column at the bottom: "So the White House
2 gets away with spin that is comical. Lanny
3 Davis would deny on the record that White
4 House coffees were fundraisers and go off the
5 record and lament that the White House would
6 use them to raise money."
7 A That is totally false. It never
8 happened. I think a lot of Tom Galvin, if he
9 were here --
10 MR. MILLS: Allow Mr. Klayman to
11 ask his questions before answering.
12 THE WITNESS: Are you objecting to
13 my answer? That is totally false.
14 MR. MILLS: Ask the question
15 Mr. Klayman.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Actually, I would
17 rather he gives the answers first.
18 MR. MILLS: This is not Jeopardy.
19 THE WITNESS: I am sorry ask the
20 questions.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q That is all right. I have no more
425
1 questions on that.
2 Did you ever have any contact with
3 Truman Arnold concerning DDB?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you know who Truman Arnold is?
6 A No. I remember reading about
7 Truman Arnold about being a Democratic party
8 fundraiser, and an official of the DNC of
9 some sort.
10 Q Have you ever discussed Dolly Kyle
11 Browning on television or on the radio?
12 MR. MILLS: Objection, asked and
13 answered.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I think that was a
15 different question.
16 THE WITNESS: I think one night I
17 did.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q What did you discuss about her?
20 A I think I commented on what she had
21 just said about President Clinton.
22 Q What show were you on?
426
1 A I forgot. I think it was either
2 Chris Matthews or Geraldo.
3 Q What had she just said about
4 President Clinton?
5 A Something very personal,
6 derogatory.
7 Q Which was?
8 A I forget.
9 Q You discussed whether or not she
10 had committed insurance fraud on that show,
11 did you not?
12 A I don't think so.
13 Q Did anyone discuss whether or not
14 she had committed insurance fraud?
15 A On that show?
16 Q Yes.
17 A I forget.
18 Q Do you know whether anyone else has
19 ever discussed that?
20 A I didn't even know she did.
21 Q Do you know whether anyone has ever
22 gathered information at the White House about
427
1 Dolly Kyle Browning?
2 A I am not aware of anybody doing
3 that.
4 Q Have you ever asked for information
5 from the White House or any agency of the
6 Clinton administration about Dolly Kyle
7 Browning?
8 A The answer is no. I didn't ever
9 know that name until after I left the White
10 House.
11 Q Since you left the White House,
12 have you asked any agency of the Clinton
13 administration for information about her?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you know of anyone who has made
16 such a request?
17 A No.
18 Q Have you been contacted by
19 Mr. Bennett in the last few weeks about Dolly
20 Kyle Browning?
21 A No.
22 Q Have you spoken to anyone about her
428
1 during that period?
2 A No.
3 Q One of the women who has surfaced
4 in terms of the Lewinsky controversy was a
5 former Miss America.
6 Do you know what I am talking
7 about?
8 A No.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, relevancy.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Have you or anyone else to the best
12 of your knowledge ever asked the White House
13 or any agency of the Clinton administration
14 about information concerning that person?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you know whether anyone else in
17 the White House, other than yourself, kept a
18 file on Richard Mellon-Scaife or keeps a file
19 on Richard Mellon-Scaife?
20 A Ask me the question. Did I ever
21 keep a file on Richard Mellon-Scaife? I
22 already answered that.
429
1 Q You answered that. I am asking
2 whether anyone else at the White House keeps
3 a file on Richard Mellon-Scaife?
4 A I am not aware of that.
5 Q Are you aware of whether anyone at
6 the White House keeps information about
7 Richard Mellon-Scaife?
8 A I am not aware of it other than
9 what I have told you about myself.
10 Q Have you ever discussed Richard
11 Mellon-Scaife with Sidney Blumenthal?
12 A I might have.
13 Q When did you discuss that with him?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
15 THE WITNESS: I think on one
16 occasion we were discussions go that stream
17 of commerce conspiracy document. I think the
18 subject of Mr. Scaife's money came up on
19 another occasions, maybe in connection with
20 the Arkansas project came up.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Since you left the White House, has
430
1 anyone provided information to you about
2 Mr. Scaife from the White House or any agency
3 of the Clinton administration?
4 A No.
5 Q Have you ever discussed Matt Drudge
6 with anyone at the White House?
7 A No. On one occasion.
8 Q What occasion was that?
9 A It was the weekend of the breaking
10 of the Lewinsky story, and on the Monday
11 before the break of the story somebody told
12 me that somebody by the name -- I knew there
13 was a Drudge report, but somebody told me
14 that he had something about a White House
15 intern on his Web site. That is the last
16 time I asked about Drudge.
17 Q Did you keep a folder or file on
18 Drudge?
19 A No, I did not.
20 Q Do you know of anyone who does?
21 A No, I do not.
22 Q At the White House?
431
1 A No, I don't.
2 Q Is there information which is
3 routinely disseminated by the White House to
4 persons who go on talk shows to discuss the
5 Clinton controversies?
6 MR. MILLS: Objection, ambiguous
7 and vague.
8 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you. I
9 don't think so, but I am not sure.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Did you get blast faxes from the
12 White House?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q Do you get blast faxes from the
15 Democratic National Committee?
16 A I get them at my home from the DNC.
17 If what you are meaning by blast faxes, it
18 appears to be I am on a list. I don't think
19 they are just sent to me, they are like
20 newsletter announcement.
21 Q Who handles the newsletter at the
22 DNC?
432
1 A I have no idea. I have no idea who
2 put me on the list. I just get them.
3 Q Do you know how DNC gathers the
4 information that it uses to produce the
5 newsletters?
6 A No.
7 Q Have you ever known who wrote the
8 newsletter for the DNC? Any newsletter?
9 A I believe I know who helps
10 contribute to it, yes.
11 Q Who is that?
12 A I believe his name, I am not sure,
13 I believe is Doug Kelly.
14 Q Where does he work?
15 A I believe he works at the DNC.
16 Q What is his position?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q Have you ever discussed any of the
19 Clinton controversies with Terry McAuliffe?
20 MR. MILLS: Objection, lack of
21 foundation.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
433
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Do you know Terry McAuliffe?
3 A Yes. In fact, I misspoke, the
4 reference to the Oval Room. I see Terry
5 McAuliffe at the Oval Room. I said
6 O'Donnell, McAuliffe.
7 Q Did you ever send documentation to
8 Terry McAuliffe?
9 A No.
10 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
11 A I don't think so.
12 Q Same question with regard to Marvin
13 Rosen?
14 A Never did.
15 Q What do you have, two minutes?
16 MS. PAXTON: Yes.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: We have six. You
18 want to split the difference?
19 MS. PAXTON: No.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: You never want to
21 compromise, Ms. Paxton. You are so tough.
22 THE WITNESS: You are running out
434
1 of steam, I can tell.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: We still on the
3 record?
4 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video
5 record at 6:17.
6 (Discussion off the record)
7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on video
8 record at 6:19.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Our biggest
10 difference of opinion is we register five
11 minutes left, Ms. Paxton registers two.
12 MR. MILLS: Mr. Mills registers
13 two.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: That comes as a
15 surprise. I have a complete count if you
16 would like it.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Did you ever discuss disseminating
19 information on Ken Starr with President
20 Clinton?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and
22 answered, and to the extent that it goes back
435
1 to the conversation which we assert
2 privilege, I would say you can't disclose
3 that.
4 THE WITNESS: The answer is no.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q During the time that you worked at
7 the White House, did you have any reason to
8 doubt the veracity of information provided to
9 you by others to disseminate to the media?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, vague.
11 THE WITNESS: Once in a very great
12 while, yes.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q When was that?
15 A I can't remember specifically. I
16 am just saying it was very infrequent where I
17 would have some doubts and I would ask to see
18 the underlying documents.
19 Q Did you ever get upset when you
20 were given information that was not correct?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection,
22 mischaracterizes.
436
1 THE WITNESS: Once in awhile.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Who was it that gave you that
4 information?
5 A It was not deliberate. It was not
6 complete. I think I was at one point upset
7 with, I forget who I was working with in
8 counsel's office on Mr. Breuer's team, but it
9 was not deliberate. We went and found the
10 information.
11 Q You do remember who it was; don't
12 you?
13 A It could have been one of several
14 people.
15 Q Who do you think it was?
16 MR. MILLS: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: I would be guessing.
18 MR. MILLS: He is only to testify
19 to his knowledge.
20 THE WITNESS: I would be guessing.
21 It could have been one of several people. It
22 would be unfair for me to guess.
437
1 But the fact is I found the
2 information and filled in the gaps of what
3 wasn't presented to me and corrected the
4 situation.
5 Let me say nobody deliberately
6 mislead me in all of the time I worked in the
7 White House.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q During the time you worked in the
10 White House, did White House counsel himself
11 have a secretary during the time you worked
12 there?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Who was that?
15 A Ora.
16 Q Ora who?
17 A I forget her last name.
18 Q That is Mr. Ruff's secretary?
19 A Ora, I honestly don't remember her
20 last name. If you asked me this morning, I
21 probably would have remembered.
22 Q Is that Mr. Ruff's secretary?
438
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did she work for the previous White
3 House counsel?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you know who that secretary was?
6 A I forget who worked for Jack Quinn,
7 but yes, I should remember it, but I am
8 tired.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: I have that we are
10 out of time. We ever already a minute and a
11 half beyond hour time.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: We have three minutes
13 left. Will you bear with me for three
14 minutes?
15 MR. MILLS: No.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You will not bear
17 with me for three minutes?
18 MR. MILLS: We have exhausted the
19 six hours plus a minute and a half.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: That is unreasonable,
21 we will take this as involuntarily walking
22 out.
439
1 MR. MILLS: The court order says
2 six hours of testimony, it is six hours of
3 testimony. Construe it as you wish; however,
4 we are availing ourself of the court order
5 and we believe we complied with it.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Based on your time
7 recollection.
8 MR. MILLS: Based on the
9 announcements of your own timekeeper. We
10 will give you one minute.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
12 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
13 Exhibit No. 7. This is a memorandum written
14 by James Sherburne. I ask if you have ever
15 seen it before.
16 (Davis Deposition Exhibit No. 7
17 was marked for identification.)
18 THE WITNESS: No.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You are sure of that?
21 A I am positive.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further
440
1 questions at this time. We will leave the
2 depositions open in the event further
3 questions become necessary.
4 MR. MILLS: We object to that this
5 deposition, as far as we are concerned, is
6 not open in the absence of a court order and
7 we reserve the right to signature.
8 MR. GAFFNEY: We join in that.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: There are questions
10 we have a difference of opinions on.
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
12 video record at 6:23.
13 (Whereupon, at 6:23 p.m., the
14 deposition of LANNY J. DAVIS was
15 adjourned.)
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