)   Civil No. 96-2123/97-1288 (RCL)

10 - - - - - 11 The videotaped deposition of TERRY F. 12 LENZNER, ESQ. was taken on Friday, March 13, 13 1998, commencing at 10:20 a.m., at the offices of 14 Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, N.W., 15 Washington, D.C., before Christy Howarth, Notary 16 Public. 17 18 19 20 21 22


 1                A P P E A R A N C E S
 4           MARK C. HANSEN, ESQ.
 6           Kellogg, Huber, Hansen, Todd & Evans
 7           1301 K Street, N.W.
 8           Suite 1000 West
 9           Washington, D.C. 20005
10           (202) 326-7904
13           LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQ.
14           D.R. BUSTION, II, ESQ.
15           TOM FITTON, ESQ.
16           Judicial Watch
17           501 School Street, N.W.
18           Seventh Floor
19           Washington, D.C.
 1        A P P E A R A N C E S continued
 4           ALLISON C. GILES, ESQ.
 5           United States Department of Justice
 6           Civil Division, Federal Programs Branch
 7           901 E Street, N.W.
 8           Washington, D.C. 20530
 9           (202) 616-0608
13           The White House
14           (202) 456-5079
17           PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQ.
18           Williams & Connolly
19           725 Twelfth Street, N.W.
20           Washington, D.C. 20005
21           (202) 434-5803
 1           A P P E A R A N C E S continued
 4           JON D. PIFER, ESQ.
 5           Office of General Counsel - FBI
 6           935 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
 7           Washington, D.C. 20835
 8           (202) 324-9655
18   (Index appears following the transcript.)


 1                P R O C E E D I N G S
 2               -    -    -    -    -
 3           THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Good morning.  This is
 4   the video deposition of Terry F. Lenzner,
 5   Esquire, taken by the counsel for the plaintiff
 6   in the matter of Cara Leslie Alexander, et al.,
 7   versus the Federal Bureau of Investigation, case
 8   number 96-2123(RCL) held at the offices of
 9   Judicial Watch, 501 School Street, Northwest,
10   Washington, D.C. on this date, March 13, 1998,
11   and at the time indicated on the video screen.
12   My name is Sylvanus Holley.  I'm the
13   videographer.  The court reporter today is
14   Christy Howarth from the firm of Bossard
15   Associates, Incorporated.
16           Will counsel introduce themselves?
17           MR. KLAYMAN:  Yes.  I ask that you pan to
18   everybody who's in the room.  My name is Larry
19   Klayman.  I don't think you have me panned there.
20   I'm the general counsel of Judicial Watch.
21           MR. FITTON:  Tom Fitton, legal assistant,
22   Judicial Watch.


 1           MR. BUSTION:  Don Bustion, attorney of
 2   Judicial Watch.
 3           MR. GAFFNEY:  Paul Gaffney, attorney for
 4   the First Lady.
 5           THE WITNESS:  Terry Lenzner, the witness.
 6           MR. HANSEN:  Mark Hansen, counsel for Mr.
 7   Lenzner, the witness.
 8           MS. ELWOOD:  Courtney Simmons Elwood
 9   representing the witness.
10           MS. PAXTON:  Sally Paxton with the White
11   House.
12           MS. GILES:  Allison Giles with the
13   Department of Justice representing the defense
14   Executive Office for the President and Federal
15   Bureau of Investigation.
16           MR. PIFER:  John Pifer with FBI.
17           MR. KLAYMAN:  Swear the witness in
18   please.
19   Whereupon --
20               TERRY F. LENZNER, ESQ.
21   a witness, called for examination, having been
22   first duly sworn, was examined and testified as


 1   follows:
 2                     EXAMINATION
 3           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 4      Q.   It's a preliminary matter, I want to
 5   raise a continuing objection to the presence of
 6   Ms. Sally Paxton insofar as she is a material
 7   witness in this case, the White House counsel.
 8   We request that -- and in the course of this
 9   deposition at a minimum, that you not discuss
10   testimony with the witness, Mr. Lenzner.
11           MS. GILES:  On behalf of Ms. Paxton, we
12   don't agree to that request.
13           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14      Q.   Mr. Lenzner, I'm going to show you what
15   I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 1.
16   It is the subpoena which you received in this
17   case on or about February 25, 1998.
18           (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 was marked
19   for identification.)
20           MR. HANSEN:  Do you want to have one
21   marked as an official exhibit of the deposition?
22           MR. KLAYMAN:  I have the exhibit here.


 1   Perhaps you could, you know, for your own
 2   edification put one on there.  It's just easier.
 3   I won't have to bring them back and forth if you
 4   have no objection.
 5           MR. HANSEN:  You don't want the witness
 6   to work from what you're marking as the official
 7   exhibit?
 8           MR. KLAYMAN:  He can certainly work from
 9   that if you prefer.  That's fine.
10           MR. HANSEN:  Why don't we do that.  I'll
11   trade with you.
12           MR. KLAYMAN:  Sure.  Let's just make sure
13   we get them back so keep them in a pile.
14           MR. HANSEN:  Of course.  I'll be happy to
15   do that.
16           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17      Q.   Have you seen that document before,
18   Mr. Lenzner?
19      A.   Yes, I have.
20      Q.   You received this document on February
21   25th, 1998?
22      A.   On or about that date, yes.


 1      Q.   And what did -- what, if anything, did
 2   you do with the document at the time you received
 3   it?  Did you bring it to the attention of any
 4   counsel?  I'm not asking for what was discussed,
 5   not interested in attorney client communications.
 6      A.   I think I took it downtown since it was
 7   delivered to my mailbox and discussed it with
 8   Mr. Shapiro who was then my counsel.  When he
 9   advised me --
10           MR. HANSEN:  Mr. Klayman has told you not
11   to get into any communication to or from
12   Mr. Shapiro, your counsel.
13           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14      Q.   Well, I don't want any confidential
15   communications but some communications obviously
16   are not if it's just a matter of when you
17   received something.  That wouldn't be subject to
18   attorney client privilege.  You are a lawyer,
19   Mr. Lenzner?
20      A.   Yes, sir.  I took it and discussed it
21   with Mr. Shapiro.
22      Q.   You did receive this subpoena served on


 1   you personally?
 2      A.   It was left in my mailbox.
 3      Q.   Are you saying you didn't get it, it
 4   wasn't handed to you?
 5      A.   No, sir.
 6      Q.   Okay.  And --
 7      A.   They called my house, and I told them
 8   that I was going to be out and to just leave it
 9   in my mailbox.
10      Q.   That's what you asked them to do?
11      A.   They wanted to serve it on me, and I said
12   just leave it in the mailbox.
13      Q.   Do you remember who you spoke with?
14      A.   I spoke to a lady and then I think a man.
15      Q.   Do you remember any names?
16      A.   I don't.
17      Q.   Okay.  Now you've discussed this with
18   Mr. Shapiro.  What, if anything, was decided upon
19   in terms of appearing for the deposition at that
20   time?
21      A.   I decided because of a statement that
22   Mr. Shapiro made to me that I needed to seek new


 1   counsel, and I solicited and retained Mr. Hansen
 2   and his law firm.
 3      Q.   I'm not asking you for any communications
 4   with Mr. Shapiro, but why did you seek new
 5   counsel, I'm asking you, Mr. Lenzner?
 6      A.   I decided that it would be better for him
 7   and for me in view of the fact that I just
 8   discovered his connection to this proceeding that
 9   I have a separate independent counsel.
10      Q.   Are you saying that that was the first
11   time you learned of the fact that Howard Shapiro
12   had some involvement in the FBI files
13   controversy?
14      A.   No, it's the first time that I learned
15   that he had a connection to this lawsuit.
16      Q.   In other words, that he had been
17   subpoenaed to testify?
18      A.   Correct.
19      Q.   But you knew previously that, in fact, he
20   was one of the individuals involved in the
21   original discovery of Filegate matters?
22      A.   I remember reading in the newspapers


 1   recently after his appearance with me at
 2   the grand jury that he was related to that
 3   incident.  I did not remember that before I hired
 4   him.
 5      Q.   You appeared with him at the grand jury
 6   that was investigating the Filegate matter?
 7      A.   No.
 8      Q.   What grand jury are you talking about?
 9      A.   I'm talking about a grand jury that
10   was -- that I was publicly identified as
11   testifying before a week or two ago.
12      Q.   You're talking about the matter involving
13   Kenneth Starr and the so-called Monica Lewinsky
14   matter?
15           MR. HANSEN:  Objection to the
16   characterization.
17           MR. KLAYMAN:  Just trying to get general
18   identification.
19           THE WITNESS:  It was conducted by
20   Mr. Starr's employees.
21           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22      Q.   Related to the Monica Lewinsky matter?


 1      A.   I'd rather not go into the questions and
 2   answers they asked --
 3      Q.   No, I didn't ask you questions.  It's
 4   just that that was what the grand jury was
 5   looking into as reported in the press?
 6      A.   As reported in the press, that's correct.
 7      Q.   Okay.  I'm just trying to identify in
 8   time.  And when did you then contact the new
 9   lawyers?
10      A.   I think the day that I decided that I
11   should not continue with Mr. Shapiro, which would
12   have been either the day I received the subpoena
13   in my mailbox or the day after.
14      Q.   And who did you contact?
15      A.   I contacted Mark.
16      Q.   Mr. Hansen?
17      A.   Mr. Hansen.
18      Q.   And what law firm does he work for?
19           MR. HANSEN:  I identified on the record.
20           THE WITNESS:  Hansen, Huber, Kellogg.  Is
21   that what it is?
22           MR. HANSEN:  You have my card.


 1           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 2      Q.   Okay.  And that was on the 25th of
 3   February, correct?
 4      A.   It would have been either the same day or
 5   the day after I received the subpoena.
 6      Q.   Are you aware of the date that anyone
 7   from that law firm contacted Judicial Watch to
 8   try to reschedule your deposition?
 9      A.   Am I aware of the date?  No, I think it
10   was some time soon after that, after our first
11   meeting.
12      Q.   What date do you say that is?
13      A.   I need a calendar if you want to ask
14   me --
15      Q.   Give me a rough approximation.
16      A.   A day or two after I received the
17   subpoena.
18      Q.   Your counsel told you that they contacted
19   Judicial Watch?
20           MR. HANSEN:  Objection to what counsel
21   told Mr. Lenzner and what Mr. Lenzner told
22   counsel.


 1           MR. KLAYMAN:  That's not an
 2   attorney-client communication.
 3           MR. HANSEN:  Well, I disagree.  And I
 4   instruct Mr. Lenzner not to answer anything
 5   having to do with communications with the firm,
 6   this attorney.
 7           MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.
 8           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 9      Q.   At the time that you met with Mr. Hansen
10   on or about February 25th, did you discuss with
11   him objecting to the request for documents in the
12   subpoena?
13           MR. HANSEN:  Objection,
14   mischaracterization of testimony with regard to
15   meeting and objection as to anything that was
16   discussed --
17           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18      Q.   Did you speak with him on February
19   25th?
20      A.   I spoke with Mr. Hansen on or about
21   either that date or the day after -- or a day or
22   two afterwards.


 1      Q.   And during that conversation, did you
 2   instruct him to object to documents that were
 3   requested by Judicial Watch as set forth in
 4   Deposition Exhibit 1?
 5           MR. HANSEN:  Objection to any
 6   communications to or from counsel by Mr. Lenzner.
 7   Instruction not to answer.
 8           MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.
 9           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10      Q.   At any time did you instruct Mr. Hansen
11   or anyone in his firm to object to documents
12   requested in this subpoena, which is noted as
13   Exhibit 1?
14           MR. HANSEN:  Objection.  Instruction not
15   to answer if it calls for communications to or
16   from counsel for Mr. Lenzner regarding the
17   representation.
18           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19      Q.   You can respond.
20      A.   I believe the question calls for an
21   answer that is privileged.
22           MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.


 1           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 2      Q.   At any time up to including today, did
 3   your counsel tell you that they had a
 4   conversation or any kind of communication with
 5   Judicial Watch where Judicial Watch said it was
 6   okay to object to documents as requested in
 7   Exhibit 1 today, March 13, 1998?
 8           MR. HANSEN:  Objection.  Same objection.
 9   Mr. Klayman, you're asking for confidential
10   attorney-client communication.
11           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12      Q.   You can respond.
13      A.   I believe it's privileged.
14           MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.
15           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16      Q.   Are you aware that counsel, your counsel,
17   have just objected to the documents requested in
18   the subpoena listed as Exhibit 1 today, that's
19   when Judicial Watch has received these
20   objections?
21           MR. HANSEN:  What are referring to,
22   Mr. Klayman?  Do you have a document in front of


 1   you?
 2           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 3      Q.   I'm going to ask that we'll mark it as
 4   Exhibit 2.  If you'd like some identification --
 5   I was asking a foundation question.  The letter
 6   which I received today, March 13, 1998, which
 7   attaches a document, Written Objections and
 8   Responses to plaintiffs' Document Subpoena of
 9   Nonparty Terry F. Lenzner, Esquire.
10           (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 was marked
11   for identification.)
12           MR. HANSEN:  That was submitted to you,
13   Mr. Klayman, pursuant to our agreement.
14           MR. KLAYMAN:  There was no agreement.
15           MR. HANSEN:  That's not true,
16   Mr. Klayman.  It was in the --
17           MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not going to argue with
18   you on the record.  That's why I'm developing the
19   record right now.
20           MR. HANSEN:  My letter and your letter
21   document agreement are in the pleadings, Mr.
22   Klayman.  You can ask Mr. Lenzner anything you


 1   want about the document request, but the
 2   agreement is documented.
 3           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 4      Q.   Have you seen this document before,
 5   Exhibit 2, this letter I've just identified of
 6   March 13th, 1998?
 7      A.   Yes.
 8      Q.   With attached objections.  When was the
 9   first time you saw this?
10           MR. HANSEN:  In this specific form?  Are
11   you asking in this specific form signed by
12   Ms. Elwood or are you asking --
13           MR. KLAYMAN:  Please don't pollute the
14   testimony, Mr. Hansen.  The question is very
15   simple, have you ever seen this document before.
16   It's inappropriate to make speaking objections.
17           Certify this.
18           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, Mr. Klayman.  I'm
19   asking you if you'll clarify your question as to
20   whether you're talking about the signed letter
21   from Ms. Elwood or something else.  The document
22   is two documents, not one.


 1           MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm asking -- well, I take
 2   it as one document, what's handed me today.
 3           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 4      Q.   Have you ever seen the top sheet, this
 5   March 13th, 1998, cover letter before today?
 6      A.   Not until it was shown to me just now.
 7      Q.   Now turning to the pleading, which is
 8   Written Objections and Responses to Plaintiffs'
 9   Document Subpoena of Nonparty Terry F. Lenzner,
10   Esquire, have you ever seen this document before
11   today in its final signed form, which is signed
12   by Mark Hansen dated March 13th, 1998?
13      A.   I saw this document this morning, this
14   exact document.
15      Q.   Did you work on this document with
16   Mr. Hansen this morning?
17      A.   We worked on it previously.
18      Q.   I asked you whether you worked on it this
19   morning.
20      A.   I reviewed it this morning.
21      Q.   When did you first start working on this
22   document?  I take it in draft form?


 1      A.   That's correct.
 2      Q.   When did you first start working on it
 3   then?
 4      A.   A couple of days ago.
 5      Q.   On Wednesday?
 6      A.   What's today?  No, I think we actually --
 7   I'd have to search my memory on that, but I think
 8   we had a meeting on this earlier than that.  I'm
 9   not certain.  I'd have to go back and check.
10      Q.   Was a draft provided to you of these
11   objections or did you discuss it first and then
12   was a draft prepared after that?
13      A.   Well, we had a discussion about whether
14   or not I had documents responsive to these
15   requests.
16      Q.   But you didn't actually prepare
17   objections at that time?
18      A.   Not at that time.
19      Q.   And, in fact, you didn't prepare
20   objections until this morning, correct?
21           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, misstates
22   testimony.0022
 1           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 2      Q.   You can respond.
 3      A.   I think that's incorrect.
 4      Q.   Well, then when did you prepare
 5   objections?  I'm talking about in written form?
 6           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, asked and
 7   answered.
 8           THE WITNESS:  I believe it was Tuesday or
 9   Wednesday.  I saw a draft some time in that time
10   period.  I took it home, I read it, I responded
11   the next day, and then I was shown the final
12   version of that this morning.
13           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14      Q.   How was the draft sent to you?
15      A.   It arrived in my office.  My secretary
16   opened my mail and handed it to me, as I recall.
17      Q.   It was mailed to you?
18      A.   It was either mailed or messengered.  It
19   arrived in my office, that's all I know.
20           MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Hansen, do you have a
21   copy of this agreement that you claim that you
22   had with me?0023
 1           MR. HANSEN:  Sure.  Would you like to
 2   take the time to go through it?  On or about
 3   March 10, 1998, we had a telephone conference.
 4   After that telephone conference, I sent you a
 5   letter, March 10, 1998, with an Exhibit 1 to a
 6   pleading we filed with the court.  It states in
 7   the second paragraph --
 8           MR. KLAYMAN:  Can I just see the letter
 9   please?
10           MR. HANSEN:  I'm sorry?  No, I'm going to
11   read it and then I'll hand it to you.
12           MR. KLAYMAN:  All right.
13           MR. HANSEN:  Into the record.  Is that
14   all right?  "Also thank you for extending us
15   additional time to respond to your document
16   request.  We will submit Mr. Lenzner's responses
17   including objections by Friday, March 13th."  You
18   sent back a letter, which is also an exhibit, in
19   which you stated that you objected to postponing
20   Mr. Lenzner's deposition, but you made no
21   statement in your letter back about the agreement
22   on the document response, and you've made no such


 1   statement until today.  Here's the documents I'm
 2   referring to if you want to look at it.
 3           MR. KLAYMAN:  Shall we mark this as an
 4   exhibit?
 5           MS. ELWOOD:  I'd like to get a copy.
 6           MR. KLAYMAN:  We'll make a copy of it for
 7   you.
 8           MS. ELWOOD:  Yeah, thank you.  Because
 9   that's --
10           MR. KLAYMAN:  Sure.  Mark that as Exhibit
11   3.
12           (Deposition Exhibit Number 3 was marked
13   for identification.)
14           MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm not going to depose
15   you, Mr. Hansen, so I'm not going to take the
16   court's time and put on the record materials
17   which are -- which can obviously be argued in
18   legal pleadings.  I'm just trying to develop a
19   foundation here.
20           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21      Q.   Mr. Lenzner, did your attorney tell you
22   that there was any agreement to extend the time


 1   to object to documents until March 13th, 1998?
 2           MR. HANSEN:  Objection to what transpired
 3   between Mr. Lenzner and his attorney and
 4   instruction not to answer.  Privileged
 5   attorney-client communication.
 6           MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.  That is not
 7   privileged attorney-client communications.  This
 8   is a fact which you've just identified as being a
 9   matter of public record in a pleading.  Obviously
10   it can't be subject to an attorney-client
11   privilege.
12           MR. HANSEN:  Well, since you make a
13   statement, I'll make a statement.  It certainly
14   can if you're asking about the conversations.  If
15   you'd like to ask him if he saw a copy of the
16   pleading or the letter, that would be perfectly
17   appropriate.  But since you asked specifically
18   about conversations, that's covered by the
19   privilege.
20           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21      Q.   You are aware, Mr. Lenzner, that
22   originally Judicial Watch agreed to reschedule


 1   your deposition but then when Judicial Watch
 2   learned that your claim to reason for not being
 3   able to be here was on a personal vacation,
 4   Judicial Watch withdrew any such understanding?
 5   You are aware of that?
 6      A.   Yes.
 7      Q.   And you are aware that we've gone through
 8   the process with the court in the last few days
 9   to enforce our original subpoena requiring your
10   appearance here today on March 13th, correct?
11      A.   On my appearance here, yes.
12      Q.   And throughout this entire time period
13   after you received this subpoena up to and
14   including today, you were aware that you could be
15   forced to testify today, March 13th, 1998,
16   pursuant to Exhibit 1, the original subpoena?
17      A.   Well, at the time that you reached the
18   agreement to allow me to travel, I thought at
19   that time the 13th was off, but then you changed
20   your decision and put it back on the 13th.
21      Q.   Were you advised that I changed the
22   decision when I learned that, in fact, you


 1   weren't leaving for business reasons but were
 2   leaving to go on a personal vacation?
 3      A.   Oh, I'm sorry.  Time out.  I forgot to
 4   put my microphone on.
 5           MR. KLAYMAN:  Did you get the sound on
 6   that?
 7           THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  Yes, it's on there.
 8           MR. HANSEN:  And while you're putting the
 9   microphone on, I'll instruct you to answer if you
10   can without disclosing attorney-client
11   communications that are privileged.
12           THE WITNESS:  What was the question
13   again?
14           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15      Q.   Were you aware --
16      A.   Up?  Up?  Okay.
17           MR. KLAYMAN:  Read back the question.
18           (The record was read as requested.)
19           THE WITNESS:  I had learned that you had
20   changed your decision, yes.
21           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22      Q.   When did you learn that?


 1      A.   I think the day before yesterday.
 2      Q.   Were you ever advised, Mr. Lenzner, that
 3   I had agreed that you wouldn't have to produce
 4   documents here today?
 5           MR. HANSEN:  Objection to -- if you can
 6   answer that without referring to the
 7   attorney-client communications, please do so.  If
 8   you can't, please --
 9           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10      Q.   You can respond.
11      A.   That was a subject of a communication
12   with my counsel.
13      Q.   Were you so advised?
14           MR. HANSEN:  Objection.  Instruct not to
15   answer.
16           THE WITNESS:  I believe it's a privileged
17   communication.
18           MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.
19           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20      Q.   Was it your understanding quite apart
21   from anything your counsel might have said that
22   you didn't have to produce documents today?


 1      A.   Yes, that was my understanding.
 2      Q.   How did you reach that understanding?
 3           MR. HANSEN:  Objection if it calls for
 4   attorney-client communication.
 5           THE WITNESS:  It does.
 6           MR. KLAYMAN:  Certify it.
 7           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 8      Q.   I'll show you what I'll ask the court
 9   reporter to mark as Exhibit 4.
10      A.   Do we have a 3?
11           MR. HANSEN:  I think 3 -- is 3 the
12   exhibit you marked but then didn't question him,
13   Mr. Klayman, just so I'm keeping clear?
14           MR. KLAYMAN:  As of -- as of this time.
15           MR. HANSEN:  Exhibit 3 is the pleading --
16           MR. KLAYMAN:  We'll make a copy of that
17   later.
18           (Deposition Exhibit Number 4 was marked
19   for identification.)
20           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21      Q.   Have you seen this document before?
22      A.   Yes.


 1      Q.   Who prepared the first draft of this
 2   document?
 3      A.   Either my office or Mr. Hansen's.
 4      Q.   Mr. Hansen's office prepared the first
 5   draft, did it not?
 6           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, misstatement of
 7   testimony.
 8           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 9      Q.   This was provided to you by Mr. Hansen's
10   office, was it not?
11           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, misstatement of
12   testimony.
13           THE WITNESS:  I thought that we actually
14   typed this in our office.
15           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16      Q.   Did you dictate the terms to someone?
17   How did it arrive?
18      A.   I reviewed a document that had some
19   errors in it, and I -- and I asked my assistant
20   to correct those errors.  That's why I thought it
21   was typed in our office.
22      Q.   How did that document arrive to you?


 1      A.   I think it came from Mr. Hansen's office.
 2      Q.   How long have you been an attorney,
 3   Mr. Lenzner?
 4      A.   Since 1964.
 5      Q.   We'll run through your background, but
 6   you have done litigation practice, I take it?
 7      A.   Yes.
 8      Q.   About how many years did you practice as
 9   a litigator?
10      A.   Including government service?
11      Q.   Yes.
12      A.   Twenty-four.
13      Q.   And during that period, you are aware
14   that when documents are --
15      A.   Can I correct that?
16      Q.   Sure.
17      A.   Excuse me.  Can I correct that?  Let me
18   recalculate that.  It should actually be 34, 34
19   years.
20      Q.   During that period of time, you prepared
21   affidavits in your practice as a litigator?
22      A.   Yes.


 1      Q.   And sometimes you prepared affidavits for
 2   Federal Court usage?
 3      A.   Yes.
 4      Q.   In fact, most of your time was spent in
 5   the Federal Court system, was it not?
 6      A.   Yes.
 7      Q.   And you were an assistant U.S. Attorney
 8   in New York?
 9      A.   Yes.
10      Q.   And you are aware that when you prepared
11   affidavits and did not have them notarized, you
12   would have to make a specific declaration at the
13   end of the affidavit?
14      A.   When you didn't have them notarized?
15      Q.   Yes, when you didn't have them notarized.
16      A.   I don't remember that quite frankly.
17      Q.   You're not aware that you have to make a
18   certain declaration under the U.S. code that
19   you're signing the affidavit under penalty of
20   perjury?
21      A.   I thought that was -- I thought the
22   beginning of the affidavit usually said something


 1   to that effect, but I don't remember it being at
 2   the end.
 3      Q.   Are you aware that you have to make a
 4   specific reference to the U.S. code provision
 5   when you prepare a declaration for an affidavit
 6   in the Federal Court system?
 7           MR. HANSEN:  Objection to the form.
 8           THE WITNESS:  No, I was not aware of
 9   that.
10           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11      Q.   Approximately how many affidavits did you
12   prepare while you were engaged in the litigation
13   practice?
14      A.   Most of the affidavits that I prepared
15   were for government agents in support of search
16   warrants, wire taps.  I'm trying to think of a
17   case in my civil practice where I had any
18   significant experience with affidavits.  And, by
19   the way, we had form affidavits in the Southern
20   District of New York.  And I can't think of any
21   off the bat, but I can certainly supplement the
22   record if you want.


 1      Q.   Thank you.  And at the end of those
 2   affidavits you would either have it notarized or
 3   you would have someone swear under penalty of
 4   perjury and list a U.S. statute -- statutory
 5   provision?
 6           MR. HANSEN:  Objection to the form.
 7   Mischaracterizes his testimony.
 8           THE WITNESS:  Well, my practice in the
 9   60s in New York, as well as the Department of
10   Justice, and I thought our affidavits started
11   exactly this way, "Being duly sworn, deposes and
12   says."
13           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14      Q.   I'm not asking about the beginning.  I'm
15   talking about how you actually make a sworn
16   declaration.  Your are aware that if you don't
17   have it notarized it must say under penalty of
18   perjury, correct?
19      A.   No.
20           MR. HANSEN:  Mr. Klayman, is there some
21   point?  This is a notarized affidavit.  Is there
22   some point to your questioning?


 1           MR. KLAYMAN:  I'm just asking the
 2   question.  I don't have to give you my point.
 3           THE WITNESS:  I felt this was a standard,
 4   adequate affidavit.
 5           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 6      Q.   Turning back to Exhibit 1 -- and I'm
 7   going to make reference to Exhibit 2.  Exhibit 1
 8   asks for the production of certain documents.
 9   Did you have an opportunity when you got the
10   subpoena to review the definitional section for
11   documents?
12      A.   I read it.
13      Q.   Based on your experience as a litigator,
14   pretty standard stuff?
15           MR. HANSEN:  Objection to the form.  I
16   don't know what you mean by "standard stuff."
17           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18      Q.   Standard boilerplate?
19           MR. HANSEN:  Same objection.
20           THE WITNESS:  Are you referring to the --
21           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22      Q.   The definitional section of what


 1   documents mean.  You did understand it, did you
 2   not?
 3           MR. HANSEN:  Paragraph 1, Page 2,
 4   Mr. Klayman?
 5           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 6      Q.   That's it, yes.  You did understand the
 7   definitional section?
 8      A.   Yes.
 9      Q.   I ask the question with regard to Request
10   Number 1, which requests any all records,
11   correspondence, notes, communications or other
12   documents produced pursuant to a Congressional
13   subpoena, grand jury subpoena, or a voluntary
14   agreement with the Department of Justice or other
15   official investigatory agency of the United
16   States, including the office of Independent
17   Counsel Ken Starr, concerning or relating to the
18   disclosure to White House personnel (including
19   employees, detailees, volunteers, and interns) or
20   to other persons in the White House (including
21   Hillary Rodham Clinton), of FBI background
22   investigation files or summary reports of former


 1   Reagan and Bush Administration appointees and
 2   employees, and others.  Did you review that
 3   specific request?
 4      A.   Yes.
 5      Q.   Did you have any such documents?
 6      A.   I don't believe I've ever had any such
 7   documents.
 8      Q.   Did you do a search to see whether you
 9   had any such documents?
10      A.   A search was made, but there was no way
11   to search for documents that I know don't exist.
12      Q.   You were subpoenaed, were you not, as
13   Terry Lenzner, Chairman of Investigative Group,
14   Inc?  You can look at the first page of the
15   subpoena.
16      A.   Uh-huh.
17      Q.   Did you do a search throughout your
18   various investigative organization to see whether
19   any such documents existed?
20           MR. HANSEN:  I'm going to object to that
21   question.  The subpoena was to Mr. Lenzner
22   personally.  There's been no subpoena to the


 1   Investigative Group, Inc., but you can answer the
 2   question.
 3           MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, you can read the
 4   subpoena, sir.
 5           MR. HANSEN:  I'm just noting who the
 6   subpoena was --
 7           MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, it's clear in its
 8   face, Mr. Terry F. Lenzner, Chairman,
 9   Investigative Group, Inc.  We subpoenaed him in
10   that capacity.
11           MR. HANSEN:  Well, you know, we can have
12   a dispute over what your subpoena does --
13           MR. KLAYMAN:  Apparently, we are.
14           MR. HANSEN:  But I'm letting you ask
15   Mr. Lenzner what was done in response to your
16   request.
17           THE WITNESS:  I knew that there were
18   no documents responsive to this request in
19   the custody or -- in my custody or control by
20   virtue of the fact that I've never seen such a
21   document, I've never held such a document, and
22   I've never seen a document like that in our


 1   offices.
 2           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 3      Q.   Just to be clear, you did not search with
 4   other employees of your firm?  You did not ask
 5   them to conduct a search, correct?
 6      A.   That's correct.
 7      Q.   And you didn't even search yourself, did
 8   you, in response to Request Number 1?
 9           MR. HANSEN:  Objection.
10   Mischaracterization, misstatement of prior
11   testimony.  Mr. Lenzner testified a search was
12   done.
13           MR. KLAYMAN:  Please don't put words in
14   his mouth.
15           Certify this.  I'm asking you not to give
16   the witness testimony.  I'm going to warn you
17   only once, Mr. Hansen.
18           MR. HANSEN:  Mr. Klayman, let me, since
19   you make a speech, you do not have the right to
20   misstate the witness' testimony.  The witness
21   previously testified on that subject.  You don't
22   then have the right to ask a question that


 1   misstates his testimony.  That's a proper
 2   objection.
 3           MR. KLAYMAN:  Well, not a speaking
 4   objection.  I'm asking you not to make speaking
 5   objections.
 6           Certify this.
 7           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 8      Q.   You did not search even within your own
 9   custody, possession, and control, Mr. Lenzner,
10   because based on your testimony you stated you
11   knew you didn't have any documents, correct?
12      A.   A search was conducted, but a search for
13   these particular papers was not conducted because
14   I know for absolute certainty that I have never
15   had in my possession, custody, or control
16   documents responsive to Request Number 1.
17      Q.   And you didn't ask any of you employees
18   to conduct a search, did you?
19      A.   Well, the answer would be the same
20   because -- our organization has never had access,
21   custody, or control of any such documents.
22      Q.   Did you issue any formal directive to


 1   other employees, independent contractors, or
 2   others who work with your firm to look for
 3   documents in response to Request 1?
 4      A.   I don't believe so.
 5      Q.   Did you issue any kind of directive to
 6   any of your employees, independent contractors,
 7   or anyone who works with your firm to look for
 8   documents in response to all of the requests in
 9   this subpoena?
10      A.   Well, as I said, certain documents were
11   obtained and reviewed in response to one of these
12   requests.
13      Q.   Please answer my question.  You
14   understood my question?
15           MR. HANSEN:  Please let the witness
16   answer your question.
17           MR. KLAYMAN:  No, he's not answering my
18   question.  I want the question answered.
19           MR. HANSEN:  You don't get to cut the
20   witness off, Mr. Klayman.  Mr. Lenzner, finish
21   your answer.  You can ask a follow-up question,
22   Mr. Klayman if you're not satisfied with the


 1   answer.
 2           MR. KLAYMAN:  Object.  Certify this.
 3   This is an interference to my questioning.
 4           THE WITNESS:  I think what I said was
 5   that we did search for some documents responsive
 6   to one of these requests.  Those documents were
 7   reviewed by Mr. Hansen's assistant.
 8           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 9      Q.   Which request is that?
10      A.   I frankly don't remember.
11      Q.   Take your time.  If you want to look
12   through it, look through it.  Tell me what
13   request that was.
14           MR. HANSEN:  May Mr. Lenzner be permitted
15   to look at the document response that we
16   submitted to you?
17           MR. KLAYMAN:  No.  We'll do that after he
18   identifies, if he can identify.
19           MS. PAXTON:  While we're waiting, I don't
20   think we got a copy of Exhibit 2.  Do you have a
21   copy for us?
22           MR. KLAYMAN:  Your counsel got a copy,


 1   did they not?  Ms. Giles?
 2           MS. GILES:  Not with a cover letter.
 3           MR. KLAYMAN:  You didn't get one?
 4           MS. GILES:  Just the subpoena, not a
 5   cover letter.
 6           MR. KLAYMAN:  Here.
 7           MS. GILES:  Thank you.
 8           THE WITNESS:  I think the documents that
 9   were reviewed were from Request 3 and Request 15.
10           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11      Q.   Request 3.  How did you do a document
12   search for documents called for in Request 3?
13      A.   I obtained documents responsive to that
14   including appointment books, desk calendars, and
15   provided them to Mr. Hansen.
16      Q.   Those were just your personal appointment
17   books and desk calendars; is that correct?
18      A.   That's correct.
19      Q.   You did not ask your employees,
20   contractors, subcontractors, and others that work
21   with your firm to look, did you not?
22      A.   Well, this request says, "Any and all


 1   calendars, desk calendars, appointment books,
 2   journals, logs or diaries created or maintained
 3   by or for Terry Lenzner," and I assumed that my
 4   response would have been to turn over my own desk
 5   calendars and it didn't go any further than me.
 6      Q.   I'm just trying to get an understanding
 7   of your search.
 8      A.   I understand.  Well, that's my response.
 9      Q.   There are employees that work for you
10   that undertake tasks on a daily basis at your
11   instruction and command, correct?
12      A.   Yes.
13      Q.   And they mark up those daily events
14   because you've instructed them to carry out those
15   events, correct?
16      A.   Could you explain "mark up"?
17      Q.   Well, put them in a desk calendar.  You
18   say go do this, go attend that meeting for me,
19   put that in your calendar, correct?
20      A.   I'm not understanding.  In other words,
21   if I tell somebody I'd like you to go meet with
22   lawyer X, would they put that in my calendar?


 1      Q.   In their calendar.
 2           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, calls for
 3   speculation.
 4           THE WITNESS:  It might.
 5           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
 6      Q.   Based on your experience.  I'm not asking
 7   for speculation.
 8      A.   Frankly, I can't remember seeing any
 9   calendar that reflected such an entry, but I'm
10   sure -- my guess is they might.
11      Q.   Okay.  Now Request Number 15, how did you
12   go about searching for those documents?
13      A.   I believe we identified certain materials
14   and boxes of materials that we felt might be
15   responsive to that request and, again, provided
16   them to Mr. Hansen's law firm.
17      Q.   Are you saying that there were documents
18   that were responsive to Request Number 15?
19           MR. HANSEN:  Objection,
20   mischaracterization.
21           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22      Q.   As written?


 1      A.   I thought that there were documents that
 2   we produced to Mr. Hansen's firm that conceivably
 3   could be responsive to those requests, yes.
 4      Q.   We're going to go through each of these
 5   requests, but let me just ask you a question at
 6   this point in time.  You've claimed in Request
 7   Number 15 in these objections, which plaintiffs
 8   maintained have been waived as untimely -- is
 9   that funny?
10           MR. HANSEN:  Mr. Klayman, I think it's a
11   terrible thing when lawyers renege on their
12   agreements.  The practice of law is an honorable
13   profession practiced by honorable people.  And
14   one of those honorable dimensions of the practice
15   is the lawyers should live up to their
16   agreements.  And I really do take serious offense
17   that you're trying to not live up to your
18   agreements.
19           MR. KLAYMAN:  I take serious offense at
20   you're having provided inaccurate if not false
21   information about me in the court.  That's what I
22   take serious offense to.


 1           MR. HANSEN:  You can identify a single
 2   such thing --
 3           MR. KLAYMAN:  We have.  It's on the
 4   record.
 5           MR. HANSEN:  No, actually, is you're
 6   redacting -- actually, you retracted one of
 7   things you told to the judge yesterday as untrue
 8   after he ruled.
 9           MR. KLAYMAN:  We can argue about that
10   later, Mr. Hansen.  My position is that the
11   objections have been waived.
12           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13      Q.   But my question is is whether or not you
14   identified documents that were responsive that
15   have not been produced in response to Request
16   Number 15.
17           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, asked and
18   answered.
19           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20      Q.   You can respond.
21      A.   My understanding is they were not
22   produced based on our objections in the responses


 1   that I've got in front of me that's marked as
 2   Exhibit 2.
 3      Q.   I was asking about 15.
 4      A.   That's included in Exhibit 2.
 5      Q.   So there were documents that were
 6   responsive that haven't been produced?
 7           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, asked and
 8   answered.  Mischaracterizes --
 9           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10      Q.   Yes or no.  I'm just asking for yes or
11   no.
12           MR. HANSEN:  It's a mischaracterization.
13   Objection.
14           THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  I'm --
15           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16      Q.   There were documents in response to
17   Exhibit 15 that were not produced?
18      A.   There were documents that conceivably
19   could have been responsive to the Request 15 that
20   were not produced.
21      Q.   Did you prepare -- were those documents
22   withheld on claim of privilege or some other


 1   basis?
 2           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, document speaks
 3   for itself.
 4           MR. KLAYMAN:  We don't have the
 5   documents, so how do we know?
 6           MR. HANSEN:  Mr. Klayman, I'm talking
 7   about Exhibit 2 referred to by Mr. Lenzner.  The
 8   document speaks for itself.
 9           THE WITNESS:  It's the -- it responds to
10   request at the bottom of Page 7.
11           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12      Q.   So documents were withheld on the claim
13   of privilege?
14           MR. HANSEN:  Objection, asked and
15   answered.
16           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17      Q.   Correct?
18      A.   I think they were denied based on all
19   these statements.
20      Q.   Okay.  You didn't write this paragraph in
21   response to Request Number 15, did you?
22      A.   Did I write this, no.


 1      Q.   That was your lawyer who wrote that,
 2   correct?
 3      A.   That's correct.
 4      Q.   And you never reviewed this particular
 5   paragraph until you just read it just now?
 6           MR. HANSEN:  Objection,
 7   mischaracterization of prior testimony.
 8           THE WITNESS:  Actually, I think I read it
 9   in draft and then in final form.
10           BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11      Q.   Was there a privilege log prepared for
12   the documents that were responsive or arguably
13   responsive which were not produced?
14      A.   I don't know.
15      Q.   Do you know what I mean by "privilege
16   log"?
17      A.   Yes, I do.
18           MR. HANSEN:  Mr. Klayman, your request is
19   so wildly overbroad that no legitimate privileged
20   log could possibly be prepared for this.  The
21   objection speaks for itself.
22           MR. KLAYMAN:  Mr. Hansen, again, you're


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