0251
1 recommendation?
2 A. I'm not absolutely certain of the answer
3 to that question, but I think that Larry Meyer
4 may have put a good word in for her.
5 Q. Who's Larry Meyer?
6 A. He's the editor of The Weekly Post and a
7 neighbor of ours.
8 Q. So you asked Larry Meyer to put in a good
9 word for her?
10 A. I think -- I don't know if I asked her --
11 asked Larry. I think maybe Emily was interested
12 in the Post photography lab and she talked to
13 Larry.
14 Q. Okay. And when she got her job for
15 George Stephanopoulos, who was it that called her
16 to let her know there was an opening for an
17 intern or --
18 A. One of her friends. I don't know her --
19 Q. You don't the name. Have you ever met
20 the friend?
21 A. I don't know. I've met a lot of her
22 friends, but I don't know if that was the same
0252
1 one that --
2 Q. Do you know whether Emily was interviewed
3 by George Stephanopoulos for the job?
4 A. I would have thought she was, but I
5 thought -- I think she was interviewed first by
6 somebody named Heather who sat outside George's
7 office.
8 Q. Heather Beckel?
9 A. That's the one.
10 Q. Is Heather in any way related to
11 Bob Beckel the legal consultant and commentator?
12 A. I have no idea.
13 Q. And do you know what Emily was hired to
14 do?
15 A. My understanding was she just was general
16 helping around the office, answering the phone,
17 filing papers.
18 Q. Office assistant?
19 A. Well, a little more -- it might have been
20 a little more elegant than office assistant.
21 Q. I don't mean to in any way suggest she
22 didn't have important responsibilities. She had
0253
1 important responsibilities, correct? She was
2 assistant to George Stephanopoulos who was close
3 to the President of the United States. That's an
4 important job, isn't it?
5 A. I think she spent a lot of time answering
6 the phone and being nice to people on the phone
7 who were trying to get through to George and were
8 having trouble getting through because he was so
9 busy.
10 Q. And she expressed to you that she
11 considered her job to be important, did she not?
12 A. No, she didn't actually.
13 Q. She hated the job?
14 MR. HANSEN: Objection,
15 mischaracterization.
16 THE WITNESS: She actually left that job
17 after a year or so and moved to Seattle because
18 she wasn't particularly happy in the job.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q. Why wasn't she happy?
21 A. She didn't find it -- she liked George
22 a lot, but she didn't find the assignments
0254
1 particularly challenging.
2 Q. What assignments did she get?
3 A. Answering the phone.
4 Q. During the time that she worked for
5 George, she got a chance to meet President
6 Clinton, did she not?
7 A. I assume she did. She never mentioned it
8 to me.
9 Q. Is your daughter not impressionable that
10 she wouldn't be impressed to meet the President
11 of the United States based on your obviously
12 intimate knowledge of her?
13 MR. HANSEN: Objection, calls for
14 speculation and it's unintelligible. You can
15 answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Well, my daughter grew up
17 in Washington, and she's -- her godmother is
18 Cokie Boggs Roberts, and she's not easily
19 impressed by people. So I think she was slightly
20 different than a typical person that worked there
21 as a young person.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0255
1 Q. Is Cokie Roberts a friend of yours?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that's how she became godmother?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Does she live near you in your
6 neighborhood?
7 A. Not far.
8 Q. Is that how you got to know her?
9 A. No, no. We met -- we first met in New
10 York City when I was in the U.S. Attorney's
11 office and they lived down the block from us in
12 New York.
13 Q. They meaning her husband and her?
14 A. Steve and Cokie.
15 Q. Okay. Is your daughter a Republican?
16 A. I don't know what party affiliation she
17 is, if any.
18 Q. Is that why -- I mean, do you think maybe
19 her political beliefs is why she never mentioned
20 that she was impressed to have met the President?
21 MR. HANSEN: Is there a question?
22 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
0256
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Okay. Now she later changed from an
3 intern into becoming a full-fledged salary
4 employee, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And to do that she had to undergo an FBI
7 background check, did she not?
8 A. I would have thought she had to undergo
9 an FBI background check when she first went to
10 work there. I can't see why you differentiate an
11 intern from a paid employee. They have access
12 to --
13 Q. Do you know whether she did get a
14 background check?
15 A. I don't. I don't.
16 Q. Did you ever ask her?
17 A. I don't remember it ever coming up.
18 Q. And you visited her from time to time
19 when she was on the job at the White House, did
20 you not?
21 A. Once.
22 Q. When was that?
0257
1 A. The day that I was invited by Lee Brown
2 to have lunch at the White House mess, and at the
3 end of the lunch I wanted -- I liked Lee Brown a
4 lot, and I wanted Emily to meet her -- him. And
5 so I had Emily come down to the mess and
6 introduced her to Lee and then she took me
7 upstairs or took me somewhere to the offices
8 where she worked to show me where she worked.
9 And I think -- I think that Stephanopoulos was
10 there and she introduced me to him. I said hello
11 and that was the total communication and contact.
12 I think that's the only time I ever saw her at
13 work there.
14 I, actually, was a little upset because I
15 kept asking her to take me to the White House
16 mess so I could go with her because she was
17 taking my wife, and I never got that pleasure.
18 Q. Did you ask her if she could introduce
19 you to the President?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You've been to the White House more than
22 that one occasion, correct?
0258
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you visited people in the White
3 House, did you not?
4 A. Did I visit people in the White House? I
5 think on one occasion I visited a person in the
6 White House.
7 Q. Who was that and when did that visit
8 occur?
9 MR. HANSEN: Let me instruct Mr. Lenzner
10 with respect to the continuing privilege
11 objection and direct him not to answer to the
12 extent it would disclose privileged information.
13 THE WITNESS: I'll accept that
14 instruction.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q. I'll show you what I'll ask the court
18 reporter to mark as Exhibit 6. It's an article
19 by John Solomon, Associated Press, February 27,
20 1998, "Investigator at White House 6 Times."
21 (Deposition Exhibit Number 6 was marked
22 for identification.)
0259
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Have you seen this before, Mr. Lenzner,
3 this article?
4 MR. HANSEN: Could he have a moment to
5 finish reading it?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. Read the whole
7 thing. I'm going to ask you questions about it.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Have you had a chance to read this?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Is this article incorrect that you have
12 not visited the White House six times?
13 A. I believe it's --
14 MR. HANSEN: I'm sorry. I don't follow
15 the double negative. I don't understand the
16 question, Mr. --
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Apparently the witness
18 understood the question.
19 MR. HANSEN: If I don't --
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't interrupt.
21 MR. HANSEN: No, I'm entitled to state my
22 objection to your question. You said -- could
0260
1 you repeat your question please?
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. Is the title of this article incorrect,
4 "Investigator at White House 6 Times"?
5 A. I believe it's incorrect.
6 Q. Was it five times?
7 A. I believe it was -- I believe it was five
8 times including the visit with Lee Brown.
9 Q. Can you tell us what the other four times
10 were for?
11 A. Once -- I went once to see somebody and
12 it was the day of the Brown -- Ron Brown's death
13 and the meeting was cancelled. I went again --
14 Q. Let's stop there. Who did you go to see?
15 MR. HANSEN: I'm going to -- to the
16 extent it involves disclosure of confidential,
17 privileged material, I'm going to instruct
18 Mr. Lenzner not answer, unless to do so, he can
19 answer without breaching such a privilege.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: How was my asking who he
21 went to see confidential information? I can't
22 understand that.
0261
1 MR. HANSEN: Can I respond?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Feel free.
3 MR. HANSEN: Okay. To the extent he
4 was going to meet someone in connection with
5 a attorney-client privileged matter or an
6 investigative matter or the identity of
7 the client was to be remained confidential
8 and secret, by disclosing it, he'd be breaching
9 a client's confidence or breaching his
10 proprietary confidential information and would
11 be betraying work product as well in terms of
12 revealing who he was meeting with about -- in
13 terms of doing his work. You have to explore
14 it further.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. So you were going to the White House with
17 regard to an investigative matter that the
18 White House was either considering you for or had
19 retained you for?
20 MR. HANSEN: I'm going to give the same
21 instruction, Mr. Lenzner.
22 THE WITNESS: I accept the instruction.
0262
1 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the instruction?
2 MR. HANSEN: The instruction is that
3 Mr. Lenzner is not to testify to the extent it
4 would require him to disclose a privileged
5 attorney-client communication, attorney work
6 product, or confidential and proprietary business
7 information that has not otherwise been made
8 public. And that's the instruction.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Hansen, you put it in a
10 catch 22 situation. Because unless I can conduct
11 a voir dire in this issue, you're not able to
12 claim your privilege.
13 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I've made the
14 objection. I'm required to make the objection.
15 You can do whatever you need to do.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Otherwise I have to take
17 your instruction on face value and there's no way
18 that the court can test whether you have a
19 privilege or not. Are you maintaining this
20 position?
21 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I've given my
22 instruction.
0263
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. Were you going to see one or more than
4 one person at that time?
5 MR. HANSEN: You can answer that.
6 THE WITNESS: One person.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q. President to the United States?
9 MR. HANSEN: I'm going to give the same
10 continuing objection, Mr. Lenzner, and instruct
11 you not to answer if to do so would require him,
12 either by denying the truth of what you say or
13 confirming the truth of what you say, to disclose
14 privileged information.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. You can respond.
17 A. I accept instruction.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q. Was your visit in any way related to
21 Ron Brown or the Commerce Department?
22 MR. HANSEN: Same objection.
0264
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. You can respond.
3 A. Same answer.
4 Q. Was your visit in any way related to a
5 lawsuit which Judicial Watch brought against the
6 Commerce Department which ultimately gave rise to
7 the discovery of John Huang?
8 MR. HANSEN: Same objection.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. You can respond.
11 A. Same answer.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. When was the next time that you went --
15 strike that.
16 This first visit occurred on or about
17 April 3rd, 1996, did it not?
18 A. I have no recollection of the exact date.
19 Q. Are you aware that's the date that
20 Ron Brown died?
21 A. No, I wasn't.
22 Q. This was the day that Ron Brown died.
0265
1 A. Okay. Then it would have been -- I'm not
2 sure that's the first visit, by the way, because
3 I was there with Emily and Lee Brown, and I think
4 that was earlier than the Ron Brown death.
5 Q. When was that?
6 A. When Emily worked there. I think it was
7 before -- before the plane went down.
8 Q. Roughly speaking?
9 A. I honestly can't remember. There should
10 be a record --
11 Q. So we've got one visit with Lee Brown and
12 Emily?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. One on the day of Ron Brown?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When was your next visit to the
17 White House?
18 A. The original visit that was cancelled
19 because of the Ron Brown death was rescheduled
20 for several weeks later.
21 Q. About how many weeks?
22 A. One or two.
0266
1 Q. Who rescheduled it?
2 A. I had my office call the office of the
3 person I was going to go see.
4 Q. And who was it you were going to go see?
5 Same instruction, same answer?
6 MR. HANSEN: Well, let me give the
7 instruction.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm trying to save
9 time. You tell me.
10 MR. HANSEN: I think I have to give the
11 instruction before you move on, Mr. Klayman. I
12 instruct that if that's confidential, privileged
13 information including proprietary information
14 about clients or potential clients, I instruct
15 you not to answer unless it's publicly disclosed
16 in a way that it's no longer confidential.
17 THE WITNESS: I accept the instruction.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. Somehow I could have envisioned that
20 response. Did there come a point in time when
21 you had another visit to the White House?
22 A. Yes.
0267
1 Q. When was that?
2 Certify it, by the way, the last
3 response.
4 A. That was at the time of President
5 Zedillo's visit to the White House, and I was
6 invited to attend -- I was invited to attend that
7 function or that -- it was outdoors. It was a --
8 he was going to give a speech outside.
9 Q. Who invited you?
10 A. Gustavo Gonzales.
11 Q. And what was his position at the time?
12 A. He's the Attorney General's
13 representative of the Mexican Government in the
14 Mexican Embassy here in Washington.
15 Q. Who, if anyone, did you meet with or see
16 or say hello to at the White House at the time?
17 A. I saw Gustavo. I talked to him briefly.
18 I watched for -- well, I had an appointment that
19 afternoon, and after the Zedillo speech, I left.
20 Q. Did you greet or say hello or meet
21 anybody who was employed by the White House at
22 that time, including the President and
0268
1 Mrs. Clinton?
2 A. I'm absolutely certain I didn't meet or
3 say hello to the President or Mrs. Clinton since
4 I've never met the President or Mrs. Clinton, and
5 I'm pretty certain that I stood with Gustavo
6 during this event and then I left.
7 Q. When was that approximately?
8 A. God, I have no recollection of that date.
9 Q. You are aware it's been reported that
10 during that visit of President Zedillo of Mexico
11 that President Clinton had an alleged encounter
12 with Monica Lewinsky? Are you aware of that?
13 A. I read that, yes.
14 Q. Is that around -- is that the same --
15 A. I have no idea.
16 Q. -- time period?
17 A. I have no idea.
18 Q. Did you have a visit after that to the
19 White House?
20 A. We had a visit on a Sunday, which was,
21 actually, a tour for my son who's at school in
22 California and three or four of his football
0269
1 buddies. They were -- they had flown east to
2 play a team in Philadelphia, college team. They
3 came home with us that night and then Sunday we
4 had a tour with them at the White House.
5 Q. Who did you meet at the White House? Who
6 was employed by the White House during that tour,
7 other than a janitor perhaps?
8 A. We met -- was employed by the White
9 House? You mean on the White House --
10 Q. Yes. Did you meet any White House
11 officials?
12 A. We did not meet any White House
13 officials.
14 Q. Have you never -- have you never met with
15 Harold Ickes at the White House?
16 MR. HANSEN: Objection, privileged
17 instruction previously given.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. You can respond.
20 A. Excuse me. May I confer for a second?
21 (Discussion off the record.)
22 THE WITNESS: I can answer that question.
0270
1 Yes, I met Mr. Ickes once.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. When was that?
4 A. It was -- I believe it was the visit
5 after the Ron Brown plane went down.
6 Q. Why did you meet with him?
7 MR. HANSEN: Privileged objection and
8 instruction previously given.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. Are you going to respond?
11 A. No.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. Did you meet with him to discuss
15 investigating perceived adversaries of the
16 Clinton Administration?
17 MR. HANSEN: Objection as
18 incomprehensible, unintelligible, and privilege
19 instruction as previously given --
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. You can respond.
22 MR. HANSEN: -- Mr. Klayman has
0271
1 graciously consented to let me do in short form
2 rather than --
3 THE WITNESS: I accept instruction.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q. Have you ever heard of investigators by
7 the name of Tommy Goodwin -- excuse me. Arkansas
8 state troopers by the name of Tommy Goodwin and
9 O.H. Bill Mullenax, M U L L E N A X?
10 A. I never heard of them until I read this
11 article or read an article about them.
12 Q. So I take it you've never worked with
13 them --
14 A. No.
15 Q. -- or had anything to do with them?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you ever met a Steve Cos, C O S, of
18 the National Inquirer?
19 A. I'm not so sure about that because I know
20 that we worked on a liable case one time, and I,
21 actually, met with some of those folks, but I
22 don't remember who they were. This was seven or
0272
1 eight years ago, but I haven't in the last seven
2 or eight years, no.
3 Q. Have you ever met with David Kendall?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. About how many times?
6 MR. HANSEN: Objection. I don't see how
7 you can answer that without disclosing --
8 MR. KLAYMAN: There's no privilege here.
9 He already said he met with him, and the times he
10 met with him are not privilege.
11 MR. HANSEN: I don't think that's -- I
12 don't agree with that, Mr. Klayman. I don't
13 believe you're entitled to inquire into the
14 substance of attorney client, attorney work
15 product, confidential trade secret, proprietary
16 business information, and your question, I
17 believe, calls for that. So I would instruct
18 Mr. Lenzner not to answer.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. When was the last time you met with
22 Mr. Kendall?
0273
1 MR. HANSEN: Same instruction.
2 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. Have you ever met with Robert Bennett?
6 MR. HANSEN: You can answer yes or no.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. How many times?
10 MR. HANSEN: Same instruction --
11 privileged instruction. Continuing privileged
12 instruction as previously given.
13 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. When was the last time you met with
16 Mr. Bennett?
17 MR. HANSEN: Continuing privileged
18 objection previously given and instruction.
19 THE WITNESS: Accepted.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Have you ever met a Craig Livingstone?
0274
1 A. No.
2 Q. Anthony Marceca?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you ever had a conversation with
5 either of them?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Special Agent Dennis Sculimbrene?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Gary Aldrich?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Never met or had conversations with any
12 of them?
13 A. No.
14 Q. David Watkins of the White House?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you ever talked with Larry Potts
17 about Livingstone or Marceca?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know whether Potts knows
20 Livingstone or Marceca?
21 A. I have no idea.
22 Q. Have you ever had any contact at any time
0275
1 with a director of White House security
2 regardless of whether it was Livingstone or
3 someone else?
4 A. During the May Day rallies when I was
5 working for President Nixon, they asked us to
6 come over to the White House, the young group of
7 people working for the President, and we were
8 given a briefing by a guy who I think was the
9 head of security in terms of what to do in our
10 different agencies if the demonstrators did
11 anything focused on our particular buildings.
12 And I think he also asked us to go and circulate
13 among the groups down -- mobilizing down on
14 the -- what do you call it? You know, down by
15 the monuments, to talk to them to see if we could
16 calm them down and to see if we could pick up any
17 intelligence of what the plans were. But that's
18 the only one I've ever talked to.
19 Q. Have you talked with anyone at the
20 White House or Executive Office of the President
21 at any time who dealt with storing, requesting,
22 utilizing FBI files?
0276
1 A. I'm sorry. I drifted there.
2 Q. Have you ever talked with anyone at the
3 White House or Executive Office of the President
4 ever about FBI files, whether it's with regard to
5 this controversy or some other matter?
6 A. Well, Donald Rumsfeld and I had a
7 discussion about this one file that was brought
8 to us by the Department of Justice and this
9 allegation about disloyalty, but other than that,
10 no, I can't think of any.
11 Q. Did that involve the White House?
12 A. Well, Don was special assistant to the
13 President.
14 Q. He was special assistant at the time?
15 A. Yes, he was.
16 Q. And was that a file that was kept in the
17 White House of this particular person?
18 A. No, no, I think it was -- no, it was an
19 employee of mine, and the question was should I
20 fire him because of the allegations in the
21 report.
22 Q. Have you ever had a discussion with
0277
1 anyone at the Federal Bureau of Investigation
2 about FBI files either with regard to this
3 Filegate controversy or some other matter?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When was that?
6 A. In 1973.
7 Q. And what was that about?
8 A. Clarence Kelly, who was then the FBI
9 director, called me over to his office because he
10 was concerned about the proliferation of
11 information in different files in the Government,
12 and I have a vague recollection of this, but
13 he -- I guess because of Watergate, he wanted to
14 know what we had all these files on our
15 computers, all this information on our computers,
16 what we were going to do with it, and he was
17 looking for counsel on how should the -- what
18 should the FBI do with all these huge banks of
19 data of information, how could they protect it,
20 and was there any concern about that.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: We have to change the tape
22 right now. Take one minute.
0278
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video
2 record at 3:20.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you want two minutes?
4 MR. HANSEN: For the record, that's not
5 the appropriate time.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: We have a standing
7 correction here that the videographer is 20
8 minutes ahead.
9 MR. HANSEN: Well, I don't accept any
10 corrections of anything having to do with the
11 time on the videography, and I'm keeping my own
12 time clock.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: We're just talking about
14 what's going to appear on the video, Mr. Hansen.
15 MR. HANSEN: Okay. I don't want there to
16 be any misunderstanding.
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. Mr. Lenzner, the exhibit that we were
20 just discussing, this article, "Investigator at
21 White House," turn to the last page, if you
22 would, where it says at the top, Documents also
0279
1 show that in summer of 1994 Lenzner's firm
2 received a grant or hundreds of thousands of
3 dollars from the State Department. The money
4 allowed the firm to send its president, former
5 New York City police chief Raymond Kelly to train
6 Hatian police and supervise international police
7 monitoring in the Caribbean nation after military
8 crises there. That was a no-bid contract that
9 your firm got, was it not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you got that by virtue of your
12 contacts with the White House in the Clinton
13 Administration?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Can you tell us in 25 words or less how
16 your firm got that contract?
17 MR. HANSEN: Well, I appreciate the
18 humorous characterization of the question, but I
19 think Mr. Lenzner should answer the question as
20 he sees fit.
21 THE WITNESS: Raymond Kelly was the
22 former police commissioner of New York, was
0280
1 currently running our New York office. He was a
2 former Marine, and the Government was looking for
3 somebody from the United States to run the
4 International Police Monitoring Group in Haiti.
5 The Marines nominated Ray Kelly for that
6 position. Ray Kelly was clearly a unique
7 personality for that position in view of the fact
8 that he had both military and substantial
9 extensive law enforcement background, and it was
10 available.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. Does Mr. Kelly speak French?
13 A. Actually, it wouldn't have helped because
14 there were --
15 Q. I just asked whether he spoke French.
16 A. I don't know if he speaks French or not,
17 but --
18 Q. You never hear of -- you never heard him
19 speak French, did you?
20 MR. HANSEN: I think you're cutting the
21 witness and the answer off.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: That was my question.
0281
1 MR. HANSEN: I think --
2 THE WITNESS: I don't know -- I don't
3 know if he speaks French or not. I did hear him
4 talk to delegations from about a dozen countries
5 in ten or eleven different languages through
6 interpreters because the International Police
7 Monitoring Group was made up of Jordanians,
8 Israelis, Belgians.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. No, offense. I don't care about
11 Jordanians, Israelis --
12 A. You asked me a question of --
13 Q. I asked you whether he spoke French. Can
14 I get a yes or a no based on your --
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Okay. But you never heard him speak
17 French?
18 A. I don't know if he speaks French or not.
19 MR. HANSEN: Objection.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. You are aware that in Haiti they speak
22 French, correct?
0282
1 A. What I was trying to explain to you, sir,
2 was the International Police Monitoring Group
3 spoke in eleven or twelve different languages,
4 therefore, everybody spoke through interpreters.
5 Q. Do you remember who nominated him for
6 that job, the person?
7 A. I don't. It was a general from the
8 Marine Corps, and, from my standpoint, it was an
9 assignment he loved --
10 Q. I didn't ask all that. I really want to
11 move this thing along. I appreciate -- perhaps
12 you're trying to be helpful here in giving us
13 a lot of background information, but I just don't
14 need it. If you'll just answer my question.
15 MR. HANSEN: I object to the cutting of
16 witness off in mid-answer.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I just asked if he knew the
18 name of the person that nominated him. I think
19 what's happening here, either intentionally or
20 unintentionally, is that the clock's being run
21 out, and I'm trying to move this thing along.
22 MR. HANSEN: Well, I think -- I take
0283
1 issue with that characterization.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I think this is strategic
3 decision to try to run the clock out.
4 MR. HANSEN: Well, I understand your
5 conspiracy theory of the world, Mr. Klayman, gut
6 it's not happening. And let the witness answer
7 your questions and ask your next question.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Who's conspiracy theory?
9 Yours?
10 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I'm not going
11 to take your time arguing with you.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, then why make a wise
13 crack? It's unnecessary.
14 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, as counsel for
15 one of the parties, I would like to note a
16 continuing objection to the length of this
17 deposition, the fact that you have asked few, if
18 any, questions with direct bearing on the issues
19 pending in the lawsuit. And I, for one, find you
20 have little standing to complain about the course
21 in length of this deposition.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gaffney, I understand
0284
1 your position that there's no merit to this
2 lawsuit, but we've already litigated that issue.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. Mr. Lenzner, have you ever been hired to
5 investigate Clarence Thomas, the Supreme Court
6 Justice?
7 MR. HANSEN: Let me instruct Mr. Lenzner
8 with regard to the continuing privilege
9 obligations. If you have information responsive
10 to Mr. Klayman's question of a non-privileged
11 nature, you can go ahead and give it.
12 THE WITNESS: I accept your instructions.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. Were you ever hired to investigate
16 Robert Bork, Supreme Court judicial nominee?
17 MR. HANSEN: Continuing privilege
18 instruction.
19 THE WITNESS: Accept your instructions.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. You previously testified to me that you
0285
1 were never hired to investigate a judicial
2 officer in the District of Columbia. Do you want
3 to change your testimony now?
4 A. I don't understand why you're asking that
5 question.
6 Q. You are aware that Robert Bork was a
7 judge, are you not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You previously testified that you've
10 never investigated a judicial officer of or in
11 the District of Columbia, correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Do you want to change your testimony?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is your answer predicated upon the fact
16 that judges that you've investigated live outside
17 of the District of Columbia but work here?
18 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, my instruction
19 is premised on the following problem. If
20 Mr. Lenzner answers your questions as, no, I
21 haven't investigated that person, that's going to
22 lead inevitably to you to say, well, then who
0286
1 have you investigated, and we'll go through a
2 process of elimination. You asked Mr. Lenzner a
3 categorical question before. He gave you a
4 categorical answer.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: He --
6 MR. HANSEN: I'm going to continue my
7 objection and you're not going to talk over me or
8 we're going to walk out of here because you are
9 not entitled to play 20 questions in terms of
10 privileged information conducted -- pertained by
11 this witness, attorney-client, work product, or
12 proprietary confidential business information.
13 And, therefore, that's the basis for the
14 instruction.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying you're not
16 going to let him answer a question because that
17 question may lead to other questions? Is that
18 your -- did I hear you correctly?
19 MR. HANSEN: No. But by asking questions
20 who he didn't investigate, you will then -- you
21 will then narrow the scope of who he did
22 investigate, and I'm not going to get into who he
0287
1 did or didn't investigate.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: This is outrageous.
3 Certify it.
4 MR. HANSEN: That's confidential,
5 proprietary -- no, Mr. Klayman, you are
6 outrageous.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
8 MS. PAXTON: Certify what?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: You're not counsel of
10 record, Ms. Paxton. I would suggest that you not
11 make comments on the record.
12 MR. GAFFNEY: Certify what, Mr. Klayman?
13 Just for the record, if you would make it clear.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: The insulting conduct and
15 your objection because it is not relevant.
16 MR. HANSEN: Not relevant?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: That's correct.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. Mr. Lenzner, have you ever investigated
20 judges who work in the District of Columbia but
21 live in adjoining states?
22 MR. HANSEN: I'm going give a continuing
0288
1 privilege objection.
2 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. What's that?
5 A. I am instructed, and I am going to answer
6 consistent with those instructions.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Mr. Lenzner, you are a White House alley,
10 aren't you?
11 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
12 question. Unintelligible. You can answer.
13 THE WITNESS: I consider myself a
14 nonpartisan independent lawyer who conducts
15 investigations in a nonpolitical way for parties
16 and individuals of all political affiliations.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q. You have worked on behalf of the
19 Democratic National Committee, have you not?
20 MR. HANSEN: Continuing privilege
21 objection except with respect to publicly
22 disclosed or non-privileged information.
0289
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. You can respond.
3 A. We were retained by the law firm of
4 Debovise & Plimpton to work with them in that
5 matter.
6 Q. And you have admittedly been retained by
7 Williams & Connolly and Skadden & Arps to work on
8 matters that involve the Clinton Administration,
9 correct?
10 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
11 question. It misstates the prior testimony.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q. You can respond.
14 A. Matters relating to -- I believe it said
15 the defense of the President.
16 Q. Correct. And you are a registered
17 Democrat, are you not?
18 MR. HANSEN: Objection.
19 THE WITNESS: I can't remember if I'm
20 registered Democrat or independent, frankly. I'd
21 have to go back and check the voting places.
22 Maybe you've checked them.
0290
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Did you vote for President Clinton?
3 A. I don't talk about who I vote for to
4 anybody.
5 Q. Are you refusing to answer that?
6 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, really, are you
7 going to get into Mr. Lenzner's voting --
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just -- I'm allowed to
9 ask the question.
10 THE WITNESS: My understanding is that a
11 vote in the United States of America is a secret
12 process, and the United States citizens are not
13 required to divulge who they vote for or who they
14 don't vote for.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. I don't have the ability to require you
17 to do anything, Mr. Lenzner.
18 A. So I'm refusing to answer that question.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
20 MR. HANSEN: I'm going to move to
21 terminate this harassment. This is just truly
22 harassment, Mr. Klayman, to try to get somebody's
0291
1 private voting.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. When you were in the University, did you
4 take any courses on American History?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you study -- well, this is before the
7 Kennedy Administration I guess. When did you
8 graduate from college again?
9 A. 1961.
10 Q. Okay, so it was just after. Do you
11 remember an individual by the name of
12 Ellen Rometsch?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever heard of a book by the name
15 of "The Dark Side of Camelot"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you read it?
18 A. Parts of it.
19 Q. I'm going to turn your attention to what
20 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 7.
21 (Deposition Exhibit Number 7 was marked
22 for identification.)
0292
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe we can restaple the
2 exhibit. The cover page was upside down.
3 MR. HANSEN: Thank you for --
4 MR. KLAYMAN: It wasn't any kind of
5 sinister attempt to confuse you.
6 MR. HANSEN: We would not suggest that it
7 was, Mr. Klayman.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Maybe it should be titled The Upside Down
10 Camelot. Can you read this excerpt of pages 404
11 and 405 and 406?
12 Have you had a chance to review that?
13 Let me just ask you some questions generally.
14 You are aware that when President Kennedy's
15 Administration was in place and thereafter there
16 were reports that President Kennedy had had an
17 affair with a woman from East Germany, correct?
18 A. I've heard that -- or I've read it.
19 Q. And you've known that for several years,
20 correct?
21 A. I don't remember when I first heard it.
22 Q. Well, it wasn't recently?
0293
1 A. Probably.
2 Q. It's been out there for a while?
3 A. I think so.
4 Q. Okay. And you're aware that there have
5 been reports over the years since the unfortunate
6 death of John F. Kennedy that J. Edgar Hoover had
7 FBI files about that affair and about affairs
8 that the same woman had had with members of
9 Congress?
10 A. I was not aware of that.
11 Q. You are aware that there have been
12 reports that J. Edgar Hoover was using FBI files
13 to blackmail people during his reign?
14 A. I don't know about blackmail, but I've
15 heard that he had -- I don't know firsthand what
16 he had or what he didn't have, but I heard rumors
17 that he had a collection of files, materials.
18 Q. Did you talk with anybody from the FBI or
19 elsewhere about whether or not J. Edgar Hoover
20 used files to convince people to do things in his
21 interest or the FBI's interest?
22 A. I think the answer to that is yes.
0294
1 Q. Who did you talk to about that?
2 A. I was standing in 1965 outside a housing
3 tenant in Selma, Alabama, during the height of
4 the demonstrations, and I was acting as a
5 liaison, an observer for the Department of
6 Justice. This was after the March 1965 -- this
7 is after the March 1965 aborted march from Selma
8 to Montgomery over the Edmonpetis Bridge which
9 was stopped with great brutality by the state
10 police.
11 And during these demonstrations, I was
12 talking with an FBI agent, and I don't remember
13 his name, and he said to me this guy Dr.King is a
14 really bad guy and he does this with women, he
15 does this, he does that, and I was shocked. I
16 was now two years out of law school and I said,
17 how do you know this. He said, because we have
18 the motel tapped, we have his room bugged, and I
19 was pretty startled by that. And I assumed it
20 was bugged to obtain incriminating information
21 that somehow was going to be used against
22 Dr. King.
0295
1 Q. And did you ever talk with anybody
2 else about the use of information in FBI
3 files to coerce people into taking certain
4 actions?
5 A. No, not that I can recall.
6 Q. But you were aware from reports that
7 J. Edgar Hoover did those kinds of things?
8 A. Well, I never could -- I never had a fact
9 that supported it except for this one incident
10 that I just related to you, which I believe, by
11 the way, to be true. I believe the agent was
12 telling me the truth.
13 Q. Based on your knowledge and experience,
14 which is considerable, with regard to
15 investigative techniques and your knowledge and
16 experience on behalf of the Department of Justice
17 working with the FBI, it is your opinion that
18 confidential information in their files could be
19 used to blackmail people, correct?
20 MR. HANSEN: Objection, calls for
21 speculation. Objection, 45(c)(3)(b)(2). You can
22 answer.
0296
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. You can respond.
3 MS. GILES: Same objection.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. You can respond.
6 A. Theoretically, information in
7 investigative files, if misused, could be misused
8 in an inappropriate fashion.
9 Q. To both smear people and blackmail them?
10 A. That certainly covers inappropriate.
11 Q. Did you have a chance to read this book,
12 "The Dark Side of Camelot"?
13 A. I read parts of it, yes.
14 Q. And you read these pages that I gave you?
15 A. Well, I --
16 Q. I'm not talking now, but when you read
17 it. When did you read it?
18 A. Oh, I read it --
19 Q. Several months ago?
20 A. Yeah. I read it when it first came out
21 because I know Sey Hersh.
22 Go ahead. What was the question?
0297
1 Q. Pretty good book?
2 A. I was --
3 MR. HANSEN: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm a friend of
5 Sey's, so I'd have to say it's a pretty
6 interesting book.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q. Were you one of Sey's sources for the
9 book?
10 A. No, I was not.
11 Q. You knew I was going to ask you that,
12 right?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. That was the quickest response I got all
15 day.
16 A. That's because I'm not a source for any
17 reporters.
18 Q. You read these particular pages when you
19 read the book, I take it?
20 A. I probably did. I don't have a firm --
21 Q. Okay. And you read it around the time it
22 came out?
0298
1 MR. HANSEN: Objection, asked and
2 answered.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. Correct?
5 A. I read the book about the time it came
6 out.
7 Q. Did Sey -- did Sey Hersh give you an
8 autographed copy?
9 A. Yes, he did.
10 Q. Signed, Best Wishes?
11 A. Something like that.
12 Q. How do you know Sey Hersh?
13 MR. HANSEN: And this has some
14 conceivable relevance to the lawsuit that's
15 taking so much of everybody's time here today,
16 Mr. Klayman?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Hansen, I really don't
18 want to get into any kind of colloquy with you.
19 I just want to ask questions.
20 MR. HANSEN: But I think --
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Go on. Please respond.
0299
1 MR. HANSEN: For something that far
2 afield, Mr. Klayman --
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. How do you know Sey Hersh?
5 MR. HANSEN: Wait a second. Wait a
6 second. You talk over objections, you talk over
7 answers. You bully witnesses, you bully lawyers.
8 You're not going to keep doing that, Mr. Klayman.
9 You're going to listen to my objection.
10 My objection is Mr. Lenzner is a
11 nonparty. We are taking all kinds of his time
12 and all kinds of lots of other people's time.
13 It's costing him lots of time and money, which
14 we're going to seek reimbursement for. If you're
15 going to ask about his friendship with Sey Hersh
16 on a book about J. Edgar Hoover with supposed
17 relevance to which is an East German spy in the
18 50s, I'm telling you that that's so far afield as
19 to constitute harassment and improper conduct,
20 and I'm asking you to make some connection to
21 your lawsuit before we waist anymore time.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Hansen, I don't have to
0300
1 tell you what the connection to my lawsuit is and
2 your colloquy and your insults are simply
3 inappropriate on the record. In and of itself,
4 it's sanctionable conduct. So please don't --
5 MR. HANSEN: You're the last person to
6 talk about sanctions, Mr. Klayman.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't threaten me.
8 MR. HANSEN: I'm not threatening you at
9 all, Mr. Klayman. I haven't even used the word.
10 You have. Mr. Klayman --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Attorneys fees and costs
12 are sanctions, are they not?
13 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I'm not going
14 to argue with you. I'm just protecting the fact
15 that my client here is being inconvenienced,
16 caused great expense over your fishing expedition
17 into who's dedicating a book to whom about
18 Ellen Rometsch, an East German spy in the 50s,
19 and I'm telling you this is outrageous.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. Who did you get to know Sey Hersh?
22 MR. HANSEN: And I think Geraldo aught to