0351
1 tell when you get off and get on. It's just that
2 it's 20 minutes fast.
3 MR. HANSEN: Well, I think, actually, the
4 clock that strikes 13 --
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I think you're probably
6 good enough at math that you can make the
7 calculation.
8 MR. HANSEN: Well, Mr. Klayman, I may or
9 may not be good enough at -- please go ahead and
10 ask your questions of Mr. Lenzner.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Did Mr. Gaffney say that we
12 could begin without him?
13 MS. ELWOOD: Yes, he did.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. Thank you. Have you ever discussed your
16 work on behalf of the Clinton Administration with
17 Charles Ruff?
18 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
19 question. No foundation for "work on behalf of
20 work of Clinton Administration." Misstatement of
21 prior testimony.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0352
1 Q. Have you been retained to do work on the
2 Paula Corbin Jones matter?
3 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the question.
4 Privileged instruction as previously given.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q. Will you answer that?
7 A. No.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. Have you researched, Mr. Lenzner, whether
11 or not White House counsel may under the law
12 participate in a matter concerning Paula Corbin
13 Jones?
14 MR. HANSEN: You can answer that yes or
15 no.
16 THE WITNESS: I haven't had the slightest
17 idea.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record reflect
19 Ms. Paxton is laughing.
20 MS. GILES: Objection to the
21 characterization of Ms. Paxton's reactions.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0353
1 Q. Have you had any discussions with regard
2 to your retention at Williams & Connolly or
3 Skadden & Arps with Harold Ickes?
4 MR. HANSEN: Objection, privileged
5 instruction previously given. You can answer if
6 to do so would not breach a privilege.
7 THE WITNESS: I can't remember a
8 conversation with Harold Ickes relating to those
9 two retentions.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. Bruce Lindsey?
12 A. Never met the man.
13 Q. Rahm Emanuel?
14 A. Never met the man.
15 MR. HANSEN: This has all been asked and
16 answered, Mr. Klayman. I think you're back --
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Not this particular
18 question.
19 MR. HANSEN: I think you asked him if he
20 ever talked to any of those people.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Have you ever met Vince Foster?
0354
1 MR. HANSEN: Wait a second. My objection
2 is you've already asked Mr. Lenzner late on
3 Friday whether he's ever met any of those people.
4 I believe it's properly stated to say that
5 they've been asked and answered --
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask whether he met
7 him.
8 MR. HANSEN: I'm sorry.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask whether he met
10 him. The question --
11 MR. HANSEN: Is it your position you
12 never asked him whether he ever spoke with
13 Rahm Emanuel?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: What the question was --
15 MR. HANSEN: Wait a minute --
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Specific conducts -- please
17 let me ask my question, Mr. Hansen.
18 MR. HANSEN: Okay.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I know you're trying to run
20 the clock out, but please don't --
21 MR. HANSEN: No. Mr. Klayman, I'm
22 just -- I'd like to follow-up. If you're saying
0355
1 there's no question previously about whether
2 Mr. Lenzner ever met Rahm Emanuel, I'd like you
3 to say that clearly because I recall that there
4 was such a question.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: No, there was a question
6 but not this question. Not this question.
7 MR. HANSEN: Whether he's already told
8 you --
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't waist my time.
10 MR. HANSEN: Wait a second. If he's
11 already told you that he's never met Rahm
12 Emanuel, how can you then ask him whether he met
13 Rahm Emanuel in the context of his work for
14 William & Donnolly?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: This is meeting anybody,
16 you can talk on the phone.
17 MR. HANSEN: That's not true.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. Mr. Lenzner, have you discussed with
20 Rahm Emanuel your retention by Williams &
21 Connolly or Skadden & Arps?
22 A. No.0356
1 Q. Same question with regard to
2 Nathan Landau?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know Nathan Landau?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Peter Knight?
7 A. I don't know Mr. Knight, no.
8 Q. Have you ever had any conversation with
9 him?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with
12 Mr. Richard Benevista?
13 A. Ever?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you ever discussed a retention by
17 Williams & Connolly or Skadden & Arps with
18 Richard Benevista?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you ever discussed any matter
21 concerning FBI files with Mr. Richard Benevista?
22 A. No.
0357
1 Q. Have you ever worked with
2 Richard Benevista?
3 A. Certainly we worked together during
4 Watergate. I mean, he was with the special
5 prosecutor and I was with the Senate Watergate
6 committee. But have we subsequently worked
7 together? It's possible that he retained us on a
8 matter -- yes, he did retain us on a matter. It
9 was some years ago.
10 Q. Richard Benevista?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Not related to the Clinton
13 Administration?
14 A. No, completed unrelated.
15 Q. Have you ever had any conversations with
16 him about any scandals in the Clinton
17 Administration or controversies? However you
18 want to call it.
19 A. I'm sure that I saw him at some functions
20 at some law firms we both happened to attend, and
21 he talked about what it was like to be on the
22 Senate Committee that he was then, I think,
0358
1 minority counsel to.
2 Q. Have you ever worked by or on behalf of
3 Senator Fred Thompson?
4 MR. HANSEN: Privileged objection
5 previously stated. Same instruction.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q. You can respond.
8 A. Have I ever worked by or on behalf of
9 Senator Thompson? I worked with Senator Thompson
10 during Watergate.
11 Q. Well, has he or any person or entity that
12 he's associated with ever retained you to do
13 anything?
14 MR. HANSEN: Privileged instruction as
15 previously given. Answer if you can do so
16 without preaching the privilege.
17 THE WITNESS: You mean his law firm?
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. His law firm or during the period that
20 he's been in the Senate?
21 A. I, actually, talked to him at one time
22 about having us assist his investigation but
0359
1 nothing ever came of it.
2 Q. Was that before or after you were noticed
3 as a witness in that investigation? You mean the
4 campaign finance?
5 A. It was before.
6 Q. And that was seriously considered by the
7 staff?
8 MR. HANSEN: Objection to what the staff
9 seriously considered.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. If you know.
12 A. I don't know. I know it didn't happen.
13 Q. Did you ever work for Senator Thompson's
14 law firm?
15 A. That's what I was trying to remember,
16 and --
17 MR. GAFFNEY: Is there any possible
18 relevance to this line of questioning,
19 Mr. Klayman?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Discovery is that which may
21 lead to relevant -- it may lead us to witnesses
22 and people we can talk to about Mr. Lenzner.
0360
1 MR. GAFFNEY: I would note that I find
2 your objections to the length of the deposition
3 or the insufficient length in your view pretty
4 difficult to swallow in light of this line of
5 questioning.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, don't swallow then.
7 THE WITNESS: The question was did we
8 ever work for his law firm? I can't remember. I
9 know he's been in our -- he's been in my law firm
10 for a social occasion, but I don't remember any
11 specific --
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q. What was his law firm? Do you know what
14 it is?
15 A. I don't know the name of it. He was with
16 Howard Baker's firm for a while. And then I
17 think he went off -- after his movie career, I
18 think he came back.
19 Q. Have you ever done any work for that
20 firm?
21 A. I'd have to go --
22 Q. You may have?
0361
1 A. I may have. I'd have to check the files.
2 Q. Have you been asked or retained to
3 investigate a Wall Street Journal reporter by the
4 name of John Fund?
5 MR. HANSEN: Let me direct you previously
6 with respect to privileges. If you can answer
7 the question without breaching privileged
8 information as previously defined, please do so.
9 THE WITNESS: Can you tell me that name
10 again?
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. John Fund, F U N D?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you been -- do you know of anyone
15 who has?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Mr. Pellicano or Mr. Palladino?
18 A. No. I've never heard that name before.
19 Q. Have you been approached or retained to
20 investigate Chris Matthews?
21 MR. HANSEN: Same privilege objection and
22 same instruction.
0362
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. From Hardball?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you been approached or retained to
5 investigate a Lucianne Goldberg?
6 MR. HANSEN: Same privilege objection.
7 Same instruction.
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. Have you been approached or retained to
11 investigate a Sherry Kelly Densick?
12 A. I've never heard of her.
13 Q. Kathleen Willey?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Linda Tripp?
16 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged objections.
17 Same instruction.
18 THE WITNESS: I will accept my
19 instruction on that.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Kelly Anne Fitzpatrick?
0363
1 A. No.
2 Q. Any Federal prosecutor?
3 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged instruction.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. Or Independent Counsel?
6 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged instruction
7 and -- your question is as to any point in time
8 throughout his career?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct.
10 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged instruction.
11 Same objection.
12 THE WITNESS: I accept the instruction.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. Michael Emmett?
16 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged instruction.
17 Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q. Bruce Udolf?
21 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged instruction
22 and objection.
0364
1 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. Larry Klayman?
4 A. I didn't know you worked for the
5 office --
6 Q. No, I'm in a different category now.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Any other entity that has brought
9 lawsuits against or concerning the Clinton
10 Administration?
11 MR. HANSEN: Objection as unintelligible
12 and same privileged objection and instruction.
13 THE WITNESS: I'll accept that
14 instruction particularly the one about
15 unintelligible.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q. Judicial Watch?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Landmark Legal Foundation?
21 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged objection,
22 same instruction.
0365
1 THE WITNESS: I'll accept instruction.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. Christine Colition?
5 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged instruction
6 and objection.
7 THE WITNESS: Accepting -- same answer.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Pat Robertson?
10 MR. HANSEN: Same -- Mr. Klayman, let me
11 just say this. If you're going to play a game of
12 20 questions as to who he has and hasn't
13 investigated, it's completely improper. It's all
14 privileged and proprietary business information.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Some he's answering and
16 some he's not. I have to ask the question.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q. Pat Robertson?
19 MR. HANSEN: I'm objecting and
20 instructing him not to.
21 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0366
1 Q. Jerry Fallwell?
2 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged objection.
3 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. Have you ever worked for Ted Kennedy?
6 MR. HANSEN: Privileged instruction and
7 objection.
8 THE WITNESS: I think it's a matter of
9 public record that we were retained by Senator
10 Kennedy's lawyer during his last election.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. Are you currently retained by him?
13 MR. HANSEN: Privilege instruction and
14 objection.
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q. Isn't it true that you were hired at one
18 time by Mickey Cantor to investigate reporters?
19 MR. HANSEN: Objection, argumentative.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. Especially at The New York Times?
22 MR. HANSEN: Objection -- same objection,
0367
1 argumentative. Misstates the evidence, no
2 foundation, and with respect to trying to
3 continue to ask questions that delve into
4 proprietary information, privileged information,
5 I give you the same instruction.
6 Answer this one and then we'll call it.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. No.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Have you ever been sued, Mr. Lenzner?
10 MR. HANSEN: Let me just object and ask
11 you to tell me what conceivable relevance
12 Mr. Lenzner's private lawsuits have --
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. I think nobody will understand that
15 better than Mr. Lenzner. Please answer.
16 A. Have I personally ever been sued? Has my
17 company?
18 Q. Well, let's start with you personally.
19 A. No, not to my recollection.
20 Q. Has your company ever been sued?
21 A. Never.
22 Q. Have you ever been named in a lawsuit as
0368
1 a defendant?
2 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: It's another way of
4 putting.
5 MR. HANSEN: How is that not the same
6 exact question at 4:30 at the end of this very
7 long deposition?
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Have you been named in a lawsuit?
10 MR. HANSEN: Objection, asked and
11 answered.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Fine. Certify
13 it.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. Have you ever been named in a complaint
16 but not named as the defendant? In other words,
17 mentioned in the complaint but not named as a
18 defendant?
19 A. We have sued people who failed to pay
20 their bills.
21 Q. Are you having any lawsuits that are
22 currently pending?
0369
1 A. I think the only one that's currently
2 pending is a case involving -- God, what's the
3 name of that company? I can't remember the name
4 of the company. It's been going on for three or
5 four years. They paid the first bill and then it
6 was a hostile takeover case and then they failed
7 to pay the rest. And I can't remember the name
8 of the company, but I'd be happen to -- I'd be
9 happen to send you the name of that style, the
10 style of that case. I believe it was
11 Investigative Group versus -- I can't remember
12 the company.
13 Q. Thank you. Have you ever been convicted
14 of a crime?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Has anyone in your organization?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Currently? Anyone who has ever worked
19 for IGI?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you ever been suspended from the
22 practice of being a private investigator?
0370
1 A. No.
2 Q. Disciplined in any way?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You worked for a Kevin White, did you
5 not, it's been reported, mayor of Boston?
6 MR. HANSEN: Objection, that's
7 privileged -- objection. And instruction unless
8 you can answer the question without divulging
9 privileged information.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. Well, it's been reported.
12 A. It has been reported, and, yes, I was
13 retained by that mayor.
14 Q. And what did you do for Kevin White?
15 A. He was having significant racial problems
16 in the city of Boston, and he felt that the
17 police department was not responding adequately
18 to the problems of minorities in the city. And
19 there was a series of attacks on minority
20 residents of Mary Ellen McCormick housing
21 project, and we -- and the police had been in and
22 unsuccessfully -- we had two investigators go
0371
1 live in the project. We were able to identify
2 the assailants. The witnesses did not want to
3 testify because of fear of retaliation, so we
4 brought a lawsuit under the Fair Housing Act
5 seeking a Federal temporary restraining order and
6 successfully deterred the continuation of the
7 rocks through the window and the fire bombs and
8 et cetera, et cetera.
9 Thereafter, he asked me to form a racial
10 commission, which was -- which I did. And it was
11 made up of Cardinal Maderas, that chairman of the
12 Boston globe, the chairman of the First
13 National -- of the Bank of Boston and the mayor.
14 And we put together a coalition of various
15 businesses and tried to have events and
16 activities that would reduce the tension, spread
17 economic benefits to different parts of the city
18 that hadn't benefitted from them, and, generally,
19 tried to bring more peace to the city of Boston.
20 And then there was a lawsuit brought by
21 the NAACP over the firing under the proposition
22 that reduced the budget that the police and fire
0372
1 department under state law were firing under the
2 state law of the last people hired, which were
3 minorities because of the -- they were both under
4 court order to hire more minorities, and I was
5 asked to argue in the court the lawsuit brought
6 by the Union and the NAACP under the
7 interpretation of the state statute.
8 Q. Isn't it true that you investigated the
9 Department of Justice for Kevin White? Your
10 investigation concerned the Department of
11 Justice, and that's been reported?
12 A. That's not accurate.
13 Q. How is that not accurate?
14 A. I represented the mayor in a specific
15 incident that he was under investigation on, but
16 it had nothing to do with an investigation of the
17 Department of Justice.
18 Q. Weren't you looking into leaks from the
19 Department of Justice?
20 A. I wasn't looking into leaks for the
21 Department of Justice. Other people may have
22 been. There were, we thought, leaks from the
0373
1 Department.
2 Q. Who was looking into the leaks from the
3 Department of Justice?
4 A. I have no idea.
5 Q. Have you ever heard of a document that
6 was prepared by the White House called the
7 Conspiracy Stream of Commerce, a document which
8 sought to portray a right wing media conspiracy
9 against the White House?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you aware that the White House takes
12 the position that there is such a right wing
13 media food chain conspiracy?
14 MR. HANSEN: Objection, assumes a fact
15 not in evidence. No foundation.
16 THE WITNESS: I believe I've read quotes
17 people who had said things about a right wing
18 conspiracy.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q. Have you been involved in that yourself?
21 A. No, I'm part of the left wing conspiracy.
22 Q. No, I understand that, you're left wing.
0374
1 We've figured that one out. Thank you.
2 But have you been involved in formulating
3 that believe by or on behalf of the White House?
4 A. I have not been involved in it. I take
5 issue, by the way, with your last comment because
6 the chart that was published in Newsweek which
7 referred to that so-called left wing conspiracy
8 included Ray Kelly, who was police commissioner
9 of New York, and certainly is not a left wing
10 person.
11 Larry Potts, 27 years with the FBI, he
12 certainly is not a left wing person. Talbotts is
13 not a left wing person in my judgment, and I'm
14 not.
15 Q. You just said you were?
16 A. That was supposed to be a joking
17 reference to the Newsweek article which I thought
18 was humorous when I read it.
19 Q. Well, you're certainly not right wing,
20 are you?
21 A. I consider myself nonpartisan and
22 independent.
0375
1 Q. Have you ever been asked to investigate
2 anyone associated with the American Spectator
3 Magazine?
4 MR. HANSEN: Objection. Privileged
5 instruction -- privileged objection, privileged
6 instruction previously given. If you can answer
7 that question without --
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. You can respond --
10 MR. HANSEN: If you can answer the
11 question without breaching privileges, please do
12 so. I was not finished, Mr. Klayman.
13 THE WITNESS: I believe that would breach
14 the privilege.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. National Review?
17 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged objection.
18 Same instruction.
19 THE WITNESS: I believe that would breach
20 a privilege.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0376
1 Q. The Weekly Standard?
2 MR. HANSEN: Same privileged objection,
3 privileged instruction.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q. Susan Schmidt of The Washington Post?
7 MR. HANSEN: I think you've previously
8 asked Mr. Lenzner specifically about whether he's
9 ever investigated any journalists, period.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's a nice way of
11 telling him how to answer.
12 MR. HANSEN: I'm not telling him how to
13 answer.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: It's cute.
15 MR. HANSEN: I'm telling him it's an
16 abusive question to get an answer and then to
17 repeat the question.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. You can answer.
20 THE WITNESS: Should I answer it?
21 MR. HANSEN: Sure.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
0377
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Are you aware that Williams & Connolly's
3 client is The Washington Post?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have you ever investigated anyone from
6 Insight Magazine?
7 MR. HANSEN: Privileged objection,
8 privileged instruction.
9 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I could answer
10 it even if --
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. Someone by The Washington Times?
13 A. No. I'll accept the instruction because
14 I don't even know -- I don't even know who writes
15 for it so I couldn't possibly --
16 Q. Have you ever been asked to investigate
17 anyone from The Washington Times?
18 A. I used to subscribe to it.
19 Q. Well, that's not an investigation.
20 MR. HANSEN: I'm going to give the same
21 privileged instruction.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0378
1 Q. Are you going to answer the question?
2 A. No.
3 MR. HANSEN: Let me just get my objection
4 on the record so we're clear. Privileged
5 objection and privileged instruction with respect
6 to what Mr. Lenzner investigates for his clients
7 or does as an attorney for his clients.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Have you ever been asked to investigate
10 anyone from The Wall Street Journal?
11 MR. HANSEN: Objection, asked and
12 answered. Previous privileged objection,
13 privileged instruction.
14 THE WITNESS: Accept my instructions.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q. Investor's Business Daily?
18 MR. HANSEN: Privileged -- I mean, some
19 of these publications Mr. Lenzner may not even
20 know what they are. So you might be able to
21 establish your foundation before you ask the
22 question.
0379
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's not a nice way
2 of telling him how to answer it. Thank you,
3 Mr. Hansen. Certify it.
4 MR. HANSEN: I'm not asking anybody to
5 tell anybody how to do anything, Mr. Klayman. I
6 think you need to establish a foundation.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q. Can you respond?
9 A. I don't believe I've ever seen that
10 magazine nor do I know who writes for it.
11 Q. Time Magazine?
12 MR. HANSEN: Privileged instruction,
13 privileged objection.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. Newsweek Magazine?
17 MR. HANSEN: Privileged objection,
18 privileged instruction.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. U.S. News and World Report?
22 MR. HANSEN: Same objection.
0380
1 MR. GAFFNEY: Any particular relevance to
2 this line of questioning?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't have to describe it
4 to Mr. Gaffney. He can respond.
5 THE WITNESS: I will say this just so we
6 avoid --
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q. Are you going to answer for U.S. News and
9 World Report?
10 A. I would say this in answer to the --
11 Q. Just answer the question.
12 MR. HANSEN: Don't cut the witness off,
13 Mr. Klayman.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: You're cutting me off.
15 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Lenzner is entitled to
16 his answer, Mr. Klayman, and if you don't let him
17 answer we're going to suspend the deposition and
18 go to see Judge Lambert immediately. Please
19 finish your answer, Mr. Lenzner.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. Calls for a yes or no.
22 MR. HANSEN: Please answer -- please
0381
1 finish your answer, Mr. Lenzner.
2 THE WITNESS: With regard to the last
3 several questions that were asked in anticipation
4 of then being clipped and put on a show to
5 suggest that we by implication have investigated
6 news magazines like Time and Newsweek and U.S.
7 News and World Report, I will repeat that we have
8 not conducted investigations of any reporters
9 relevant to this matter.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. Relevant to this matter?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. But not generally?
14 A. I'm not going to go beyond by statement
15 except to say -- so there's no misleading
16 interpretation of the questions you asked and the
17 privilege that was exercised. I don't want this
18 tape to be shown to suggest that by refusing to
19 answer those questions under the privilege we
20 have, in fact, conducted such an inquiry. So the
21 answers we have not conducted such an inquiry and
22 I want that on the tape, and I hope it's played
0382
1 consistent --
2 Q. What do you mean my "relevant"? You mean
3 the Filegate matter?
4 A. I would include a broad spectrum of -- I
5 would go back to the statement issued by my
6 clients --
7 Q. What exhibit is that?
8 A. And affirm that --
9 MS. ELWOOD: Five.
10 MR. HANSEN: Five.
11 THE WITNESS: And affirm the accuracy of
12 the quote, we have not investigated and are not
13 investigating prosecutors, investigators, or
14 members of the press.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. So what you're saying is in the context
17 of this press release, the matters discussed in
18 this press release, you have not investigated
19 members of the press?
20 A. I am saying that that statement is an
21 accurate statement.
22 Q. Terry Lenzner, IGI, has not investigated
0383
1 members of the press as set forth in Exhibit 5?
2 A. As set forth in the context of that
3 entire document relating to our work on behalf of
4 both Messrs. Bennett and Mr. Kendall.
5 Q. But you have investigated members of the
6 press in other contexts, correct?
7 A. I am not going beyond the statement. I
8 think that's the only relevant issue at issue
9 here.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. Have you ever heard of a Charley Trie?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Have you ever met Charley Trie?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You were retained, were you not, to
17 investigate matters with regard to Democratic
18 fund raising?
19 MR. HANSEN: Objection, asked and
20 answered.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Correct?
0384
1 A. We were retained by Debovise & Plimpton
2 to examine certain contributions that were made
3 during the last election cycle.
4 Q. In the context of that investigation, did
5 you investigate any Republican members of
6 Congress or the Senate?
7 MR. HANSEN: Objection, privileged
8 instruction, privileged objection.
9 MR. GAFFNEY: Again, Mr. Klayman, I
10 realize I haven't made much headway on this but
11 would you care to enlighten either counsel for
12 the parties in the case as to the relevance of
13 this line of questioning?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I really do not want to
15 enlighten you. Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry to disappoint
17 you, but at the request of the counsel for
18 Sullivan & Cromwell, we barred any of the people
19 engaged in the investigation of the Clinton Legal
20 Defense Fund from participating in the
21 investigation of the DNC foreign contributions.
22 As a result, I have no firsthand information
0385
1 regarding that investigation because I worked --
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. Well, we're talking about different
4 things. I'm asking you whether in the context of
5 your work on fund raising you ever investigated
6 the fund raising practices of Republicans in
7 Congress?
8 MR. HANSEN: Privileged objection and
9 instruction. Answer if you can without
10 disclosing any privileges regarding nonpublic
11 confidential, proprietary matters.
12 THE WITNESS: At what time period?
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. Any time period.
15 A. I'll accept the instruction.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q. Have you ever been charged with
19 investigating Haley Barber?
20 MR. HANSEN: Objection. Privileged
21 objection, privileged instruction.
22 THE WITNESS: No.
0386
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Did he give you the answer? Your lawyer?
3 A. No.
4 Q. He whispered at you.
5 A. Yes. The record should reflect that he
6 whispered in response to my question.
7 Q. In conducting your investigation of fund
8 raising have you ever sought the use of FBI
9 files?
10 MR. HANSEN: Objection, Mr. Lenzner, as
11 asked and answered. Anything having to do with
12 FBI files maybe 36 times now, Mr. Klayman.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. Are you going to respond?
15 A. Say the question again.
16 Q. In the context of doing your fund raising
17 investigations, have you ever sought the use of
18 FBI files?
19 A. If FBI files were made exhibits in a
20 public proceeding and were germane to the
21 investigation, which I take it you're saying any
22 investigation, we might very well seek a document
0387
1 that had been marked as an exhibit in a public
2 proceeding. But other than that no. The answer
3 would be no.
4 Q. Is what you're saying that FBI files may
5 have been made part of a public record in the
6 context of these proceedings?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You don't remember?
9 A. No. I'm saying we look for law
10 enforcement documents in criminal litigation,
11 generally, if it's going to shed some light on
12 the questions we're seeking to answer if they've
13 been made part of a public record. Short of
14 that, we don't seek access to nonpublic FBI
15 records.
16 Q. Have you ever heard of the Ron Brown
17 Drilling Company?
18 A. No. Are we ready to go?
19 Q. Have you ever worked for Ivana Trump?
20 A. Yes, for her lawyer.
21 Q. Who was that lawyer?
22 A. Well, my New York office handled that.
0388
1 I'm trying to remember her lawyer's name.
2 MR. HANSEN: I instruct you, again,
3 Mr. Lenzner, not to reveal anything beyond what
4 you've been permitted by clients to reveal other
5 than anything proprietary or privileged
6 information.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember his name.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to
10 review the manuscript of Gary Aldrich's book,
11 "Unlimited Access"?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you ever read that book?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you ever talked to anyone about that
16 book?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you ever met James or Mochtar Riady?
19 A. Who.
20 Q. James or Mochtar Riady?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Pauline Canchanelack?
0389
1 A. No.
2 Q. When I say, "met," met or talked to?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Maria Shaw?
5 A. Never heard of her.
6 Q. Nora, Gene, or Tricia Lumb?
7 A. I've never --
8 MR. GAFFNEY: Mr. Klayman, any relevance
9 to the lawsuit at issue, again, one last time
10 before we shut down?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: There may be. You can
12 answer.
13 THE WITNESS: The only possible time that
14 any of my people might have been in contact with,
15 we did do -- contacted people who showed up in
16 the Legal Defense Fund investigation with foreign
17 names on postal money orders to determine whether
18 or not they, in fact, had contributed sums
19 represented by the postal money order. I have no
20 idea whether those are the names of any of the
21 people that were involved in that. But we did go
22 through records relating to several hundred
0390
1 thousand dollars of postal money orders with
2 foreign names on them.
3 I had my people out interviewing them,
4 and based on that interview, the defense fund, I
5 think, returned five hundred or six hundred
6 thousand dollars of postal money orders.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q. Michael Brown?
9 A. What about him?
10 Q. Did you ever talk or meet him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Talk with him or meet him? Did you
13 ever -- were ever asked to or did you ever
14 investigate the wife of Senator Don Nickles?
15 A. Well, this is where we started, and the
16 answer to that question is we never were asked to
17 nor did we ever investigate Senator Nickles' wife
18 and he knows that and I know that.
19 Q. Do you know her name?
20 A. No.
21 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, do you have any
22 sense how long you think the deposition has to
0391
1 go? It's coming pretty close to the end by our
2 calculations.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: When is it the end by your
4 calculations?
5 MR. HANSEN: By my calculation it ends on
6 4:50 and that's giving a generous cushion, but
7 I'd like to know what your calculation is.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I can go for at least
9 another hour more.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, that's impossible for
11 me. I have a scheduled conference call.
12 MR. HANSEN: I would like to know you
13 think the six hours permitted by the court ends,
14 so we can see if there's some reasonable
15 accommodation.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Bustion is advising me
17 on time.
18 Mr. Bustion advises me that based upon
19 his excellent time keeping capabilities that the
20 six hours would end at 5:02.
21 MR. HANSEN: Well, I'll let you go until
22 5:00. How's that? You have 10 more minutes.
0392
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm not necessarily
2 accepting Mr. Bustion's calculations.
3 MR. HANSEN: Now there's a distrustful
4 person for you.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I think the record will
6 speak for itself.
7 MR. HANSEN: 5:00.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: You need a little humor
9 here.
10 MR. HANSEN: Is that all right,
11 Mr. Lenzner, 5:00? All right. Well, you've got
12 until 5:00.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: No offense to Mr. Bustion.
14 I have a great deal of respect towards him.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. Ricky Simon. Where did you get to know
17 Ricky Simon?
18 A. She was an applicant to join our firm
19 eight or nine years ago, maybe longer. She's a
20 lawyer.
21 Q. Is she working for your firm currently?
22 A. No.
0393
1 Q. What did she do for when she worked for
2 your firm?
3 A. She was an investigator, researcher.
4 Q. Was she the one that you put in charge to
5 investigate Robert Bork and Clarence Thomas?
6 MR. HANSEN: Objection, no foundation.
7 That's a misleading, unfair question.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. You can answer.
10 MR. HANSEN: No. I'm going to direct you
11 not to answer.
12 THE WITNESS: I'll accept the
13 instruction.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
15 MR. HANSEN: Wait. Did I finish my
16 objection, Mr. Klayman?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought you did. See, I
18 have a problem -- you're kind of like
19 Ms. Shapiro. She's not here today but sometimes
20 I think you ended your investigation only to find
21 out -- your objection only to find out it's still
22 ongoing. It's not intentional on my part.
0394
1 Perhaps it's your way of speaking. Perhaps it's
2 my way of listening.
3 So why don't you finish your objection.
4 MR. HANSEN: I think, Mr. Klayman, after
5 that speech, it's a little bit too far. Why
6 don't you go ahead --
7 THE WITNESS: As a factual matter, by the
8 way, I think that Ricky Simon was not -- I'm not
9 certain of this absolutely but I don't believe
10 she was with our company when the Bork and
11 Clarence Thomas reviews were underway. I'm not
12 absolutely certain.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. What was the nature of those reviews?
15 MR. HANSEN: Objection. Privileged
16 instruction, privileged objection.
17 THE WITNESS: I was referring to the time
18 period when the Senate committees were reviewing
19 those two candidates.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. Do you stand by your previous refusal to
22 answer the question as to whether you were
0395
1 involved?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Steven Greene. When did you first meet a
4 Steven Greene, G R E E N E?
5 A. Steven Greene applied for a job with
6 us -- I don't know. Let's see, probably a
7 year-and-a-half ago. He was then the deputy
8 director of the Drug Enforcement Administration
9 that had been with the agency, again, 20 some
10 years, was the number two under four, I think,
11 directors, most recently Mr. Constantine, and I
12 think he was brought in maybe 12 -- maybe 14, 16
13 months ago.
14 Q. And he's still working with you?
15 A. Yes, he is.
16 Q. And what's his area of specialty?
17 A. Money laundering and security.
18 Q. Investigating?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Not actually doing it?
21 A. Yes, anti-money laundering and security.
22 Q. Have you ever worked, when you were with
0396
1 the Department of Justice, with the Central
2 Intelligence Agency?
3 A. I don't believe so, no.
4 Q. Are you currently working with the
5 Central Intelligence Agency on any matter, you or
6 your firm?
7 A. No. I think the only work I've ever done
8 with the CIA was, I represented two or three
9 former CIA employees during the Church Senate
10 hearings, including the former head of the
11 Technical Service Division, Sidney Gotlebe. And,
12 indeed, I sued the Senate Committee to keep his
13 name out of the assassination report on the
14 grounds that it might endanger his life and his
15 family's life.
16 Q. Brooke Sheare? Who's Brooke Sheare?
17 A. Brooke Sheare was an investigator with
18 IGI for several years. She left IGI to campaign
19 with Mrs. Clinton during the first election. She
20 received a job with the Administration, and
21 that's where she is now.
22 Q. Is she close with Mrs. Clinton?
0397
1 MR. HANSEN: Objection, calls for
2 speculation.
3 THE WITNESS: I would assume so, but I
4 don't have any firsthand knowledge.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q. Have you ever talked with her about
7 Mrs. Clinton?
8 A. Yes, she's talked about Mrs. Clinton.
9 Q. Did she ever mention whether or not
10 Mrs. Clinton was involved in the FBI files
11 matter?
12 A. Never came up. It's almost all -- her
13 relationships with Mrs. Clinton, when she saw
14 her, Chelsea, her children getting together, that
15 kind of stuff.
16 Q. Cody Sheare?
17 A. That's her twin brother.
18 Q. And he worked for you, too?
19 A. No, he did not. He was a subcontractor
20 on one matter for us, but he's never been
21 employed by us.
22 Q. On that Cheyenne, Rappahoe matter?
0398
1 A. No.
2 Q. Derrick Sheare, who is that?
3 A. Derrick Sheare is -- I think the older
4 brother in the family.
5 Q. Have you ever met him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who's your best friend, Mr. Lenzner?
8 A. My best friend?
9 Q. Yes.
10 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, do you think
11 that's an appropriate question after six hours?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, it is. Particularly
13 after six hours it's an appropriate question.
14 MR. HANSEN: Go ahead, Mr. Lenzner.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, I would say my wife,
16 my children. I would say Larry Potts, now, that
17 I've known him. I would say Charley Nessen at
18 Harvard Law School, Monroe Price at Sheva Law
19 School. Fran Jones who was my deputy at Legal
20 Services.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Is he still in Washington?
0399
1 A. No, he's in Boston.
2 Q. Who do you talk to most of those people
3 currently, say, in the last six months?
4 A. My children, my wife. I taught a course
5 with Nessen, an evidence course. I talk to him
6 quite a bit. Monroe Price is a very, very dear
7 friend. I talk to him a lot. Larry Meyer, who I
8 spoke about before, very close and dear friend of
9 ours.
10 Q. Where is he located?
11 A. D.C. in our neighborhood.
12 Q. Is it M Y E R or M E Y E R?
13 A. M E Y E R. Sam and --
14 Q. What neighborhood do you live in?
15 A. Cleveland Park. Sam and Eleanor Dunn.
16 Q. Where are they located?
17 A. Cleveland Park. Very close friends of
18 ours.
19 Q. Of those people, who would you tell your
20 most -- who would you confide in the most?
21 A. None. Well, I don't confide in anybody.
22 Q. Based on your years of experience as an
0400
1 investigator?
2 A. Exactly. Particularly in this town.
3 Q. Do you confide in your wife?
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. Your kids?
6 A. Very much so.
7 Q. But of your friends, who would you
8 confide in the most? I realize you're obviously
9 a typical Washington sceptic, but who would you
10 talk to the most?
11 A. I'd want to think long and hard before I
12 answered that question on a public record.
13 Q. Would you give me that answer once you've
14 had a chance to think about it?
15 A. I might; I might not.
16 Q. I'm asking you to.
17 MR. HANSEN: I'm asking you, Mr. Klayman,
18 to restrict, after six hours of questions, any
19 last possibly relevant questions you have
20 because, honestly, I do think we've gone well
21 beyond harassment into the theater of the absurd
22 with this deposition. Why don't you wrap it up.
0401
1 We've got about two minutes left.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. You do confide in Strobe Talbott.
4 A. I'm not sure about that, no.
5 Q. But you talk to him from time to time?
6 A. Oh, I talk to him from time to time.
7 I've had dinner with him recently.
8 Q. Cokie Roberts?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Steve Roberts?
11 A. Well, is the question are we social
12 friends? We were at their daughter's wedding.
13 We see them for dinner.
14 Q. Do you talk to these people, any of these
15 people, about what you're doing professionally?
16 A. No, absolutely not. Absolutely never.
17 And they know it because Cokie knows she's not
18 going to call up and get any information from me.
19 Q. You don't want to be on This Week?
20 A. I was asked to be on This Week, and I
21 rejected it.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: It's 5:02. We will leave
0402
1 the deposition open by virtue of the questions
2 that we're going to have to ask the court to
3 adjudicate and with regard to documents that were
4 not produced.
5 MR. HANSEN: Our position is the
6 deposition is closed. You can obviously take
7 what further action you need.
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video
9 record at 5:20.
10 (Reading and signature not waived.)
11 (Time noted: 5:20)
12 - - - - -
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
0403
1 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, to wit:
2 I, Christy Howarth, before whom the
3 foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify
4 that the within-named witness personally appeared
5 before me at the time and place herein set out,
6 and after having been duly sworn by me, according
7 to law, was examined by counsel.
8 I further certify that the examination
9 was recorded stenographically by me and this
10 transcript is a true record of the proceedings.
11 I further certify that I am not of
12 counsel to any party, nor an employee of counsel,
13 nor related to any party, nor in any way
14 interested in the outcome of this action.
15 As witness my hand and notarial seal this
16 ______ day of _______________, 1998.
17
18 ________________________________
19 Christy Howarth
20 Notary Public
21
22 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES: 6/30/00
0404
1 I N D E X
2 DEPOSITION OF TERRY F. LENZNER
3 March 13, 1998
4
5 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
6 Mr. Klayman 5
7
8 EXHIBITS: PAGE MARKED
9 1 7
10 2 18
11 3 24
12 4 29
13 5 237
14 6 258
15 7 291
16 8 305
17
18
19
20
21
22 * Original exhibits retained by Counsel.
0405
1 CERTIFICATE OF DEPONENT
2 I hereby certify that I have read and
3 examined the foregoing transcript, and the same
4 is a true and accurate record of the testimony
5 given by me.
6 Any additions or corrections that I feel
7 are necessary, I will attach on a separate sheet
8 of paper to the original transcript.
9 __________________________
10 TERRY F. LENZNER
11 I hereby certify that the individual
12 representing himself/herself to be the
13 above-named individual, appeared before me this
14 ______________ day of ______________, 1998, and
15 executed the above certificate in my presence.
16
17 ________________________
18 NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR
19 ________________________
20
21 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES:
22 __________________________
0406
1 WITNESS: TERRY F. LENZNER
2 DATE: Friday, March 13, 1998
3 CASE: ALEXANDER vs. FBI
4 Please note any errors and the
5 corrections thereof on this errata sheet. The
6 rules require a reason for any change or
7 correction. It may be general, such as "To
8 correct stenographic error," or "To clarify the
9 record," or "To conform with the facts."
10 PAGE LINE CORRECTION REASON FOR CHANGE