UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA -------------------------x CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : : Plaintiffs : : v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL) : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : INVESTIGATION et al., : : Defendants. : Morning Session -------------------------x Washington, D.C. Wednesday, May 26, 1998 Deposition of DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE a witness, called for examination by counsel for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and agreement of counsel, beginning at approximately 10:15 a.m. at the offices of Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W., Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary public in and for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf on the respective parties: 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE ROBERT CORRY, ESQUIRE 4 PAUL ORFANADES, ESQUIRE Judicial Watch, Inc. 5 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725 Washington, D.C. 20024 6 (202) 646-5172 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation and Executive 8 Office of the President: 9 JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE 10 ALLISON GILES, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor Washington, D.C. 20004 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of Investigation: 15 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE 16 NATALIA LEONS, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W. 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 3 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 12th Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5175 6 On behalf of The White House: 7 SHELLY PETERSON, ESQUIRE Special Assistant Counsel to the President 8 The White House Washington, D.C. 20500 9 (202) 456-5079 10 On behalf of Defendant Nussbnaum: 11 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 12 51 West 52nd Street New York, New York 10019-6618 13 (212) 403-1000 14 On behalf of Deponent: 15 DAVID S. COHEN, ESQUIRE Miller Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, L.L.P. 16 2555 M Street N.W. Washington. D.C. 20037-1302 17 (202) 833-6503 18 ALSO PRESENT: 19 David Black Thomas Fitton Joseph Nelson Cate Gerry Greenberg 20 Billy Dale Ralph T. Maughan John Dreylinger M. Dennis Sculimbrene 21 22 4 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 7 4 *Proceedings transcribed at pages 141 through 249 designated CONFIDENTIAL and bound 5 separately 6 LIVINGSTONE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 7 No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachment 9 8 No. 2 - Objections to Subpoena 12 9 No. 3 - Resume 12 10 No. 4 - Letter, Cohen to Colloton, 104 Attachments 11 No. 5 - Boston Globe Article 108 12 No. 6 - House Report 104-849, 112 13 Pages 121-134 14 No. 7 - Questionnaire Response 237 15 No. 8 - Fax, Chalmers to Livingstone, 285 Attachment 16 No. 9 - Event Report 322 17 No. 10 - Unlimited Access Excerpts 428 18 No. 11 - Visitors Log 457 19 No. 12 - House Report 104-849, 489 20 Pages 760-771 21 22 * * * * * 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 3 This is the video deposition of David Craig 4 Livingstone, taken by the counsel for 5 Plaintiff in the matter of Cara Leslie 6 Alexander v. Federal Bureau of Investigation, 7 U.S. District Court for the District of 8 Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held in the 9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street 10 Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this date, 11 May 26, 1999, and at the time indicated on 12 the video screen, which is 10:15 a.m. 13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm 14 the videographer. The court reporter is Joan 15 Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting. 16 Will counsel now introduce 17 themselves? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, 19 chairman and general counsel of Judicial 20 Watch. 21 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President 22 Judicial Watch. 6 1 MR. CORRY: Rob Corry, attorney, 2 Judicial Watch. 3 MR. COHEN: David Cohen, Miller 4 Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, counsel for the 5 deponent. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: James Gilligan, 7 Department of Justice, representing the 8 Executive Office of the President and the 9 FBI. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro, 11 from the Department of Justice, representing 12 the Executive Office of the President and the 13 FBI. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney, 15 Williams & Connolly, for the First Lady. 16 MR. MAZUR: Robert Mazur, Watchell 17 Lipton Rosen & Katz. I represent Bernard 18 Nussbuam. 19 MS. GILES: Allison Giles, with the 20 Justice Department, representing Defendants 21 EOP and FBI. 22 MS. LEONS: Natalia Leons, FBI 7 1 Office of General Counsel. 2 MR. PIFER: John Pifer, FBI General 3 Counsel's Office. 4 Whereupon, 5 DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE 6 was called as a witness and, having been 7 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 8 as follows: 9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Mr. Livingstone, please state your 12 name. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, before 14 we proceed may we have the gentlemen in the 15 back of the room identify themselves? 16 MR. DALE: I'm Billy Dale, one of 17 the main characters in Travelgate. 18 MR. DREYLINGER: John Dreylinger. 19 MR. MAUGHAN: Ralph Maughan, also 20 out of Travel Office. 21 MR. CATE: Joseph Cate, Plaintiff. 22 MR. SCULIMBRENE: Dennis 8 1 Sculimbrene, former FBI agent assigned to The 2 White House. 3 MR. BLACK: I'm David Black, 4 Plaintiff. 5 MR. COHEN: Who are you with, 6 Mr. Black? 7 MR. BLACK: Plaintiff. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: He's actually no 9 longer a Plaintiff, Mr. Klayman. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: He was a Plaintiff, 11 yes. And, Mr. Orfanedes, do you want to 12 identify yourself? 13 MR. ORFANEDES: Paul Orfanedes, 14 Judicial Watch. 15 MR. COHEN: With me is Gerald 16 Greenberg, who is a summer associate with my 17 office. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court 19 reporter please swear in the witness? 20 Whereupon, 21 DAVID CRAIG LIVINGSTONE 22 was called as a witness and, having been 9 1 first duly sworn, was examined and testified 2 as follows: 3 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Please state your name. 6 A My name is Craig Livingstone. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Livingstone, I'm 8 going to show you what I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark as Exhibit 1 to your 10 deposition. 11 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibit 12 No. 1 was marked for 13 identification.) 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q It's a subpoena duces tecum which 16 requires your attendance here today, May 26, 17 1999, at 10:00 a.m. Have you ever seen this 18 document before? 19 A I don't believe I have. 20 Q Take a look at the attachment 21 called Exhibit A. It requires that you bring 22 certain documents with you. On page 4 it 10 1 lists a schedule of documents. Before that 2 you have a definitional section. The 3 documents requested go through and include 4 requests 1 through 18. 5 A I apologize, sir. My counsel did 6 go over this particular document with me in 7 detail. 8 Q When did he go over that with you? 9 A I'm not sure the exact time but in 10 the last couple weeks. 11 Q Was it in the last week? 12 A I'm not sure. 13 Q Last two weeks? 14 A Not positive. 15 Q Where did you go over the document 16 with counsel? 17 A I believe by phone. 18 Q You're not sure of that, either? 19 A As I said, I believe by phone. 20 Q And who called who? Did you call 21 your counsel or did he call you? 22 A I'm sure my counsel called me. 11 1 Q Where were you sitting at that 2 time? 3 A Where was I sitting? 4 Q Where were you? 5 A Probably at my home. 6 Q You're not sure of that, either? 7 A I said probably at my home. 8 Q And what time of the day was it? 9 A I haven't an idea. 10 Q But this document was never sent to 11 you, correct? 12 A I don't want to say that it was 13 never sent to me. I've gotten a lot of 14 documents over the last few years. I'm very 15 familiar with the document, so in all 16 likelihood it may have been sent to me as 17 well. 18 Q But you don't remember seeing it? 19 A I just can't remember reviewing it, 20 but it's very possible that I did. 21 Q What documents did you bring to 22 this deposition in response to this subpoena? 12 1 A The only document that I had to 2 bring in response to the subpoena. 3 MR. COHEN: I will, at this point, 4 Mr. Klayman, tender to you Mr. Livingstone's 5 objections to the May 20, 1999, subpoena for 6 documents. Can I have that marked as Exhibit 7 2 to this deposition? And a document which 8 is Bates-numbered LIV 0560 through LIV 0563, 9 which is the document that we are producing 10 in response to the subpoena. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the 12 objections be marked as Exhibit 2, and we'll 13 ask that Exhibit 3 be the document that's 14 being produced today. We'll have that in 15 about two minutes. 16 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibits 17 Nos. 2 and 3 were marked for 18 identification.) 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Mr. Livingstone -- 21 A It's Livingstone, sir. 22 Q Mr. Livingstone, did you go through 13 1 each of the document requests with your 2 counsel when you talked to him by phone? 3 A No, sir, I believe that I've gone 4 through document requests in regards to this 5 activity several times in person at his 6 office. 7 Q So you didn't specifically go 8 through the document requests with regard to 9 this deposition today? 10 A That's not what I said. I said I 11 reviewed -- I believe that you have sent 12 similar documents to my attorney on my behalf 13 before, and I've reviewed them with my 14 attorney at his office. This particular 15 document I'm not sure if I reviewed with my 16 attorney at my home or over the phone, but I 17 know it was one of those because I brought in 18 the documents that he had asked me to bring 19 in. 20 Q And my question -- 21 MR. COHEN: Larry, can we take a 22 break, two minutes? 14 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, it's a very 2 simple question. He should be able to answer 3 it. 4 MR. COHEN: I know. He answered 5 your last question. We're going to take a 6 two-minute break. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I object to that. 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 9 video record at 10:23. 10 (Recess) 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 12 video record at 10:25. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Mr. Livingstone, did you discuss 15 each specific document request of Exhibit 1, 16 which is the subpoena, with your counsel? 17 A Yes, Mr. Klayman, I have, and he 18 has refreshed my memory to my satisfaction 19 that this is a document that I reviewed with 20 him in his office on Monday. 21 Q Is that what you did during the 22 break, your attorney refreshed your memory? 15 1 A My attorney provided me the 2 opportunity to look at the document in 3 detail, and I came to the conclusion -- 4 Q Did I deny you the opportunity to 5 look at the document when I put it in front 6 of you? 7 A I'm not arguing that, sir. 8 Q So your attorney gave you the 9 information which you're now testifying to? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection. 11 THE WITNESS: I believe what I 12 said, sir, was that I reviewed the material 13 in depth and came to the conclusion that, 14 yes, it was in fact the information that my 15 attorney and I discussed on Monday, sir. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Why was it you couldn't review the 18 document here in this room? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Do you have a response to that, 22 Mr. Livingstone? 16 1 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. 2 THE WITNESS: My response would be 3 that I looked at the document outside the 4 room and came to the conclusion that yes, it 5 was in fact the document that I reviewed with 6 my attorney at his office on Monday. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q And in fact your attorney told you 9 that he had reviewed it with you on Monday 10 during that meeting outside of conference; is 11 that correct? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Correct? 15 A I don't believe that's what he 16 said, no. He said take a look at this and 17 see if this refreshes your memory for the 18 meeting that we had on Monday. That's what 19 he said. Slightly different from your 20 portrayal. 21 Q Now, do you currently have 22 documents that are responsive to this 17 1 subpoena at your home? 2 A No. 3 Q Where do you live? 4 A 19312 Dunbridge Way. 5 Q And where is that? 6 A In Montgomery Village, Maryland. 7 Q Are there documents in your 8 attorney's office which are responsive to 9 this subpoena and previous document requests? 10 A I believe that my attorneys have 11 forthrightly responded to the subpoena 12 request for documents on my behalf. 13 Q Are they located in your attorney's 14 office? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q What date did you leave The White 17 House? 18 A I don't remember the exact date. 19 1996, the summer. 20 Q During the period that you worked 21 in The White House did you ever take 22 documents out of The White House? 18 1 A Can you be more specific? 2 Q That's just a general question. 3 MR. COHEN: I object to the 4 question. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 A To be clear, sir, I'm sure that I 8 never took out classified or top-secret 9 material or material marked sensitive. 10 Q But you did take out other 11 documents? 12 A For the purpose of Presidential 13 advance, similar duties like that, yes. 14 Q And where did you store those 15 documents when they were taken out? 16 A Usually they were for an event and 17 at the conclusion of the event we would throw 18 them away. They were time lines, basically, 19 who's going to be meeting the President 20 where. 21 Q When you left The White House, you 22 did have White House documents in your 19 1 possession, correct? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 3 MR. COHEN: Objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You can answer. 6 A I left everything that I had at The 7 White House. It was not till sometime later, 8 after the Independent Counsel released it. 9 Q You're saying that at the time that 10 you left The White House you didn't have in 11 your possession outside of The White House 12 any documents? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q That had been taken from The White 16 House? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection as well. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know how I 19 can answer that. I had bank statements from 20 my credit union, things like that, but no -- 21 certainly no documents from my office that 22 should be in my office, stored in my office. 20 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q When you worked at The White House, 3 did you sometimes use a computer? 4 A Very rarely, almost not at all 5 until the end. 6 Q But you did use one? Where did you 7 use the computer? 8 A That would be in my office. 9 Q And what office was that? 10 A Room 84, sir. 11 Q The Office of Personnel Security? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And what kind of computer did you 14 use? 15 A Honestly, I don't know the brand 16 name, but I believe it was a PC, not a MAC. 17 Q Was it a desktop? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And did you do your own word 20 processing on that computer? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q What did you do on the computer, if 21 1 anything? 2 A I generated a few documents, some 3 e-mail. There was very little that I had in 4 the way of word processing that my assistant 5 didn't do for me. 6 Q What specifically did you do? Some 7 documents e-mail, what documents did you 8 generate? 9 A If I had a short memo to send to 10 someone in counsel's office or a reply to a 11 request, I would -- if it was something that 12 needed to be in writing, I would put it in 13 writing. 14 Q Did you have that memo delivered by 15 hand or was it sent by e-mail? How did you 16 deliver it to counsel's office? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 18 of the question. Vague. 19 THE WITNESS: Specifically, sir, I 20 can't recall, but it could have been any 21 combination that you suggest. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 1 Q And about how many of these 2 documents did you yourself generate? 3 A I really don't know. I would say 4 less than -- conservatively less than a 5 hundred. 6 Q And what period of time, generally 7 speaking, were these documents generated in? 8 A I would say most of them in the 9 early part of the administration. 10 Q Around what time? 1993? 11 A Yes, sir, I think that would be a 12 good place to start. 13 Q Did any of these documents deal 14 with the acquisition of FBI files? 15 A What do you mean by acquisition of 16 FBI files? 17 Q Let's just make it more general. 18 Did any of the documents deal with FBI files 19 generally, that you generated? 20 A Well, I would without hesitation be 21 able to say no because we never requested one 22 FBI file at The White House while I was 23 1 there, not one. 2 Q Well, let's talk about FBI summary 3 reports. Did any of these documents deal 4 with those? 5 A Yes, sir, I would imagine they 6 would. 7 Q Did any of these documents deal 8 with FBI raw data? 9 A Absolutely not. 10 Q Did any of these documents deal 11 with IRS summary reports, Internal Revenue 12 Service? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Did any of these documents deal 15 with other types of information from agencies 16 in addition to the FBI or IRS? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You can respond. 20 A Can you please give me an idea what 21 you mean, other types of information? 22 Q Any other agencies other than FBI 24 1 or IRS, what other agencies? 2 A Anything that would be responsive 3 to White House personnel security's need for 4 waiving in or clearing someone, say, from the 5 Department of Defense or another government 6 agency, we would have to know what their 7 security credentials are and the currency of 8 their reinvestigations. We wouldn't get 9 their backgrounds. We'd only get their -- 10 from the security officer from the other 11 agency stating that they were top secret and 12 their last update was in 8/85, something like 13 that. 14 Q And you sent, I take it, various 15 e-mail from that computer? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And who did you send the e-mail to? 18 A I would say some of the e-mail was 19 personal, standard stuff, women I was dating 20 or seeing, people I wanted to go to the ball 21 game with, probably to people that I worked 22 with at The White House. 25 1 Q Who were the people at The White 2 House that you worked with? 3 A My staff and my superiors. 4 Q And who were they? 5 A My staff would be Mari Anderson, 6 Lisa WÄÄÄÄl, Edward Hughes. 7 Q Can you give their title after 8 their name? 9 A I'd be happy to. Mari Anderson was 10 executive assistant. Lisa WÄÄÄÄl started as 11 a security assistant and became executive 12 assistant. Edward Hughes started as a 13 security assistant and became executive 14 assistant before my departure. Jonathan 15 Denbo was an intern and then was hired on as 16 a security assistant. I believe that would 17 be it from my office. E-mail to superiors -- 18 Q Let's stop there. You communicate 19 with them by e-mail sometimes? 20 A Sometimes, yes, sir. 21 Q On government matters? 22 A I believe so. Towards the end we 26 1 had some procedures and things like that we 2 needed to get squared away or updated 3 procedures and wanted to make sure everybody 4 had a copy of it. 5 Q The procedures for clearing 6 holdover employees and political appointees? 7 A No, sir, it was more like hours, 8 who locks the door, who could be in the 9 office when I'm not in the office, that type 10 of thing, general housecleaning kind of 11 things. 12 Q Who made those procedures? 13 A That would be me. 14 Q Did you have any guidance in 15 formulating those procedures? 16 A I think that I would review them 17 with my supervisor. 18 Q And who was that? 19 A William Kennedy, Beth Nolan, 20 Christopher Cerf, and honestly the last two 21 fellows I don't remember their name. 22 Q Who conceived of the procedures 27 1 initially? 2 A I believe that would have been me. 3 Q And they would have approved it? 4 A Yes, sir. They were minor things 5 in nature. They were not involving 6 procedures for getting or processing 7 information. These are just basically turn 8 the lights out, turn the air off, call 9 security when you leave the room so it's 10 secured, that type of thing. 11 Q What else did you communicate with 12 these individuals by e-mail in addition to 13 procedures? 14 MR. COHEN: Just to clarify, Larry, 15 you're talking about his staff? 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Those he just 17 identified. 18 MR. COHEN: Not the people he was 19 working for but his staff? I'm just trying 20 to clarify. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just taking this 22 subset of people. 28 1 MR. COHEN: His staff? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. 3 THE WITNESS: I think that would be 4 it, sir. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Did some of these e-mail 7 communications concern the acquisition of FBI 8 files? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Directly or indirectly? 12 A I wouldn't think so. Again, we 13 never requested FBI files. 14 Q Let's go back. I understand what 15 you're defining it as. These procedures did 16 concern your review of materials acquired 17 from the FBI? 18 A And those materials, again, would 19 be summary background reports, which were 20 two- to three-page documents that looked like 21 this, no raw data, no photos, no innuendo. 22 They read like resumes, for the record. 29 1 Q My question was what else did you 2 send by e-mail to your staff? 3 A I don't recall, perhaps other 4 things. 5 Q Before you sent personal notes by 6 e-mail, did you get clearance from anybody in 7 The White House to use White House computers 8 for personal matters? 9 A I don't believe I did. 10 Q And who did you send personal notes 11 to? 12 A Don't recall. 13 Q Not one person? 14 MR. COHEN: I object to the 15 question. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't mind. My 17 brother, I think I remember sending him one, 18 but on times he would work with me on 19 advance, so I don't know if it was personal, 20 hi, how you doing, little brother, or if it 21 was hey, we're going to be working on this 22 event; you need to be here at such and such a 30 1 time. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q What's your little brother's name? 4 A Stephen Livingstone. 5 Q Did he work at The White House, 6 too? 7 A He works at the Department of 8 Energy. 9 Q Has he ever worked at the White 10 House? 11 A No, he has never worked at the 12 White House. 13 Q Why was he working on events with 14 you? 15 A He would work from time to time on 16 events with me on his free time. 17 Q Was anyone advised at The White 18 House that your little brother from the 19 Energy Department was working with you? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Who? 22 A The person who ran scheduling 31 1 advance. 2 Q And who was that? 3 A Paige Reefe. 4 Q Did your brother have a top secret 5 security clearance? 6 A He does. 7 Q He does or he did? 8 A He does. 9 Q Did he have it at that time? 10 A He did. 11 Q What was it about White House 12 procedures that would allow you to use your 13 brother from the Energy Department for White 14 House events? 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 16 of the question. 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Is that permitted under White House 20 procedures? 21 A Anybody that's on their own free 22 time, as long as it's not a fund raiser, that 32 1 works in the government is allowed to work on 2 events. It's a way for them to express their 3 free speech. 4 Q What specifically did your brother 5 do? 6 A Held doors open, said things like, 7 "They're waiting for you in the room, sir," 8 straightened up the flags, greeted people 9 that came in the room. 10 Q And when did he do these things? 11 A I would say about a half a dozen 12 times over three years. 13 Q What years were they? 14 A '93, '94, '95. 15 Q And what was it about your duties 16 and responsibilities, which we'll get to in 17 greater depth later, that required your 18 presence at these events? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 20 MR. COHEN: Objection as well. 21 THE WITNESS: I was asked if I had 22 time to help out, and I helped out. 33 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Who asked you to help out? 3 A People in scheduling and advance 4 office. 5 Q Who were they? 6 A If it wasn't Paige Reefe, it was 7 his predecessor. Paige Reefe was the 8 director of that office. 9 Q Your brother had access to FBI 10 summary reports? 11 A Absolutely not. 12 MR. COHEN: Objection. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Join the objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You showed him some, didn't you? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Who else did you send e-mails to? 21 A I think I've answered that question 22 to the fullest. 34 1 Q Not your staff but other people in 2 The White House. You gave me four names. 3 A I don't remember. 4 Q Who else? 5 A I don't recall. 6 Q You don't recall anybody else? 7 A No, not specifically. 8 Q Who would you have communicated 9 with in the ordinary course? 10 A As I said before several times, it 11 would have been my supervisors. 12 Q And who were the supervisors? 13 A As I said before several times, it 14 was Bill Kennedy, Beth Nolan, Chris Cerf, and 15 whoever followed them. 16 Q Are there any other documents that 17 you yourself created on your computer? 18 A Not that I'm aware of, sir. 19 Q You're not sure? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q You did store those documents on a 22 floppy disk, did you not? 35 1 MR. COHEN: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: I never stored any 3 documents on a floppy disk. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Were the documents stored on a hard 6 drive? 7 A I don't know. I don't know if my 8 documents were stored or not. I don't 9 remember throwing away any documents, so if, 10 they're there, they're there. 11 Q You made hard copy of those 12 documents, did you not? 13 A Sometimes. 14 Q And where were they stored? 15 A In my office. 16 Q How were they stored? 17 A I think in a file folder near my 18 desk. 19 Q Who ran off the hard copy? Who 20 printed it? 21 A If a hard copy was made and it was 22 something I was doing, I'm capable of pushing 36 1 the print button and going and getting the 2 hard copy myself. If someone else did it, it 3 again would be in the same office. They'd 4 just print it themselves. 5 Q Was there a common printer to 6 computers in the office? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And where was that located? 9 A In the 12-by-12 office, I would say 10 mid-wall opposite of me. 11 Q Who was in charge of operating that 12 printer? 13 A I suspect my executive assistant at 14 the time. 15 Q Mary Anderson? 16 A Or Lisa WÄÄÄÄl or Ed Hughes. 17 Q And when a hard copy was made, a 18 backup copy was kept? 19 A I don't know what they did with it. 20 I didn't get them any specific instructions 21 what to do when they worked for me other than 22 to give me the copy that I needed. 37 1 Q But you kept it in a file? 2 A Usually. 3 MR. COHEN: Object. Are we talking 4 about any particular documents or just normal 5 office procedures? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Please let me ask the 7 questions. You'll have an opportunity to 8 cross-examine. 9 MR. COHEN: I was trying to 10 clarify. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, I'm asking 12 you not to clarify. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Did you keep those documents? 15 A Did I keep the documents when? 16 Q During the time that you worked in 17 The White House. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 19 of the question. 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I just don't 21 know what documents you're talking about. 22 Any documents that I may have printed I 38 1 assume that I kept for a while I worked 2 there, yes, sir, if that's the question. 3 Q Have you ever destroyed any of 4 those documents? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 6 of the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q So, then, you took the documents 10 with you when you left The White House? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 12 of the question. 13 MR. GAFFNEY: Object to the form of 14 the question. 15 MR. COHEN: Object to the form. 16 THE WITNESS: As I said before, I 17 left everything at The White House. 18 Independent Counsel's office went through it 19 for a couple months, and then whatever I got 20 back I got back. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Have you been notified by the 39 1 Independent Counsel that you're a target of 2 its investigation? 3 A No. In fact, I've been notified 4 otherwise. 5 Q What have you been notified? 6 A I have to confer with my counsel to 7 get the specifics, but that's -- 8 Q That's fine. 9 MR. COHEN: You want to know what 10 he has been notified by the Independent 11 Counsel? 12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Have you been exonerated by the 15 Independent Counsel? 16 MR. COHEN: I'm going to object to 17 the extent that you're inquiring into 18 attorney-client communications that I've had 19 with Mr. Livingstone. I would note that we 20 have produced documents from the Office of 21 Independent Counsel that bear on their view 22 of Mr. Livingstone's status that indicate 40 1 that they regard him as technically a 2 subject, although more so a witness, and have 3 no plans to indict Mr. Livingstone, if that's 4 responsive to your question. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Is it accurate, Mr. Livingstone? 7 A Is that something I can respond to 8 if it's attorney-client privilege? 9 Q If it ever was, which we submit 10 it's not, it's not any more, so you can 11 respond to. 12 A Unfortunately, I'm not a lawyer, 13 and I need to consult with my lawyer. 14 MR. COHEN: Just one second. 15 (Witness conferred with counsel) 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you for the 17 moment to get clarification on that. I 18 appreciate it. Are you ready, sir? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Yes. 21 A I didn't know if he had -- as I 22 understand it, the Independent Counsel a 41 1 couple years ago described me as technically 2 a subject because of the position and office 3 but regarded me overall as a witness. 4 Q Do you have any information other 5 than that, in addition to that? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the extent 7 it's asking for attorney-client privilege 8 communications. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Do you know of any persons other 11 than yourself who are targets or subjects of 12 the Independent Counsel's investigation? 13 A No, sir. I don't know about 14 anybody's status. I'm not aware of it. 15 Q Have you ever been advised as to 16 why you'd be needed as a witness? 17 A I was told because of my proximity 18 to the office. 19 Q Do you have any knowledge of 20 whether other indictments are planned? 21 You've been told you're not going to be 22 indicted but whether other people are going 42 1 to be indicted? 2 A I have no such knowledge. 3 MR. COHEN: Mr. Klayman, just to 4 clarify, the documents to which I was 5 referring are Bates-numbered Livingstone, 6 LIV, 340 and 341, LIV 344 and 345, LIV 346 7 through 348, and LIV 351 through 352. That's 8 the correspondence I was referring to 9 earlier. I'm happy to have those made part 10 of this deposition record if you'd like. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: We're going to get 12 our copies of them, but if you have them 13 already available it will speed things along. 14 MR. COHEN: That's my only copy. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to make a 16 copy -- 17 MR. FITTON: Okay. 18 MR. COHEN: Why don't you get your 19 copy, if you don't mind? 20 MR. FITTON: All right. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q I take it you've testified in 43 1 proceedings conducted by the Independent 2 Counsel? 3 A Yes. 4 Q How many times? 5 A I don't remember the exact amount 6 of times. 7 Q Did anyone ever ask you whether you 8 created computer disks? 9 A I don't know if I'm able to talk 10 about what the Independent Counsel asked me. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: I would like to 12 lodge an objection on that ground as well. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Does the Independent Counsel have 15 in its possession computer disks which you've 16 created? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, I have 19 to object to the extent that you're inquiring 20 into the substance of the independent 21 counsel's investigation into this matter as I 22 had to object at Mari Anderson's deposition 44 1 when you sought to ask questions of that 2 nature, at least until the independent 3 counsel's had an opportunity to decide 4 whether it wants to weigh in with any law 5 enforcement privilege it may care to assert. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: We faced this issue, 7 I believe, with the court already because we 8 have requested information that was produced 9 to other investigative bodies, and the court 10 ruled that it had to be produced, and it was 11 in the context of Mr. Livingstone, as a 12 matter of fact. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Are you referring to 14 the Secret Service ruling? I'm not sure what 15 ruling you're referring to. If you can 16 refresh my recollection -- 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm referring to the 18 fact that Mr. Cohen on behalf of his client 19 claimed that certain materials were exempt 20 because they had been produced to the 21 Independent Counsel and other investigative 22 bodies. 45 1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, for the 2 purpose of clarity I did not produce nor have 3 I ever created any computer disks. I did not 4 produce any to the independent counsel. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q When you left The White House, 7 where was your computer at the time? 8 A It was in my office. 9 Q Did you wipe anything off the hard 10 drive? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you ask anybody else to do 13 that? 14 A No. 15 Q So presumably everything that you 16 put on that computer is still on the hard 17 drive? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: It's kind of hard for 20 me to answer that question, sir, since I 21 didn't have control of it. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 46 1 Q You don't have information to the 2 contrary, do you? 3 A I certainly do not. 4 Q And the copies of the documents 5 which you created on that computer, to the 6 best of your knowledge, they were left in The 7 White House when you left, correct? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q So they should still be there, 10 correct? 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I object to the form 13 and the argumentative nature of the question 14 and lack of foundation. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A I left everything there that I had. 18 Q Did you instruct anybody to destroy 19 those documents? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 21 answered. 22 THE WITNESS: I answered it and I 47 1 said no. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q So to the best of your knowledge, 4 they should still be in The White House, 5 correct? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: If there are such 8 documents, then they should have still been 9 there, but, as I said, the documents were 10 released to me some time ago after the 11 Independent Counsel's investigation. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q The documents were released to you? 14 A Right. 15 Q And who released them to you? 16 A The White House after the 17 Independent Counsel instructed them they 18 could do so. 19 Q And what documents were released, 20 specifically? 21 A Thank-you letters, taking scouts on 22 tours, getting people's grandmother's letters 48 1 that had passed away to their families, that 2 kind of stuff. 3 Q Are you saying that the Independent 4 Counsel created the documents off the 5 computer that you left behind when you left 6 The White House? 7 A I have no knowledge of that. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q So you don't know whether the 11 documents that you were released to you are 12 the ones you're testifying to about now that 13 are on the computer? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection. I don't -- 15 THE WITNESS: I don't see how 16 there's any way I can answer that, 17 Mr. Klayman. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q You don't know one way or the 20 other? 21 A Right. 22 Q Since the time you left The White 49 1 House, did you ever discuss with anyone at 2 The White House whether you kept documents? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 5 vagueness and the overbreadth and et cetera. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I 7 would like to say though inconsistency with 8 what happened in my experience in three and a 9 half years of experience at The White House. 10 Every time an inquiry was made at The White 11 House and we were asked to produce documents, 12 my experience in producing voluminous amounts 13 of documents, not once did The White House 14 not respond to the request. 15 So it would be my considered 16 opinion that The White House did, if there 17 was anything responsive to anyone else's -- 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q That wasn't my question. My 20 question was whether you after you left The 21 White House ever have a discussion with 22 anyone -- 50 1 A Well, I was answering your question 2 previously. 3 Q At The White House about documents 4 you created? 5 MR. COHEN: I'm sorry. Can you ask 6 the question again? 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q After you left The White House, did 9 you ever have a discussion with anyone at The 10 White House about documents you created? 11 A It's possible. I had about a 12 hundred hours of questioning by various 13 government agencies. That may have come up. 14 Q And who did you meet with at The 15 White House in preparation for those 16 questioning sessions? 17 A I didn't meet with anyone at The 18 White House. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Who did you talk to at The White 22 House? 51 1 A I didn't talk to anyone at The 2 White House. 3 Q So from the point you left The 4 White House, you've never had contact with 5 anyone at The White House? 6 A That's not what I said. 7 MR. COHEN: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Have you had contact with anyone at 10 The White House since you left? 11 A On a friendly basis, yes. 12 Q Who? 13 A Young man that used with work for 14 me, Ed Hughes. 15 Q Where is he today? 16 A Works in counsel's office. 17 Q In White House Counsel's Office? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What does he do there? 20 A I think he's a special assistant. 21 Q And I take it your discussion with 22 him was not related to professional business, 52 1 as you see it? 2 A I'll tell you exactly what it was 3 related to. My girlfriend's uncle and aunt 4 are in town and they wanted to go on a tour. 5 He set up a tour for me I got him four boxes 6 of M & Ms. 7 Q Where did he set up a tour for you? 8 A Just like he dos for everybody else 9 that wants to see The White House, on the 10 residence side of The White House. 11 Q And when did he do that? 12 A This week. 13 Q Was that the only contact you had 14 with Mr. Hughes in the last three or so 15 years? 16 MR. COHEN: Since Mr. Livingstone 17 left The White House? Is that the question? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: We kept in touch. He 20 was applying to a school. I had offered to 21 be a reference for him. He checked in to see 22 how I was doing. 53 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Since the date you left The White 3 House, have you visited The White House? 4 A I have. 5 Q When was that? 6 A I went to a retirement ceremony for 7 an OPM director. 8 Q And who was that? 9 A Jim King. 10 Q And when did you go there? 11 A I don't recall. 12 Q Roughly speaking? 13 A Oh, '96, '97. 14 Q Was Mrs. Clinton at that retirement 15 ceremony? 16 A Not when I was there. 17 Q Have you talked to her since you've 18 left The White House? 19 A I have not. 20 Q Have you communicated with her in 21 writing? 22 A Have not. 54 1 Q Have you communicated with anyone 2 on her behalf orally or in writing? 3 A I have not. 4 Q You have not communicated with 5 either Mrs. Clinton or any person acting on 6 her behalf, making any representation on her 7 behalf in any way, since you left The White 8 House? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 10 MR. COHEN: I object to the form, 11 too. Vague. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't really follow 13 it. Sorry. I don't follow the question. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q What I'm saying is you haven't 16 communicated with her or any person on her 17 staff since you left The White House? 18 A That's not what I understood you to 19 say. 20 Q Well, answer that one. 21 A I may have talked to somebody on 22 her staff. Her staff changes quite often. I 55 1 don't recall. 2 Q Who did you talk to on her staff? 3 A I don't recall. 4 Q Was it a man or a woman? 5 A I do not recall. 6 Q And how do you know you talked to 7 anybody? 8 A I didn't say that. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection. 10 THE WITNESS: I said I may have 11 talked to someone. I see a lot of people on 12 the street, you say hi, that type of thing. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Talk to Maggie Williams? 15 A No. 16 Q Marcia Scott? 17 A No. 18 MR. COHEN: Just wait one second, 19 Larry. 20 (Witness conferred with counsel) 21 MR. COHEN: Go ahead. Marcia Scott 22 was the question. 56 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Marcia Scott? 3 A No. 4 Q Evelyn Lieberman? 5 A No. 6 Q Capricia Marshall? 7 A No. 8 Q Ms. Barry? 9 A I don't know who Ms. Barry is. 10 Q Have you communicated since you've 11 left The White House with anyone in the 12 President's office? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection, vague. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 15 THE WITNESS: I saw Nancy Hernreich 16 at lunch one day when I was with my family, 17 and she said hi and left. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q And where was that? 20 A That was at a Greek restaurant on 21 Connecticut. It was a nice, sunny day, and 22 she was with a tall man with dark hair who I 57 1 do not know. 2 Q Was George Stephanopolous there? 3 A I think I had a Gyros, by the way. 4 Q Was George Stephanopolous there? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: He said a tall man, 6 Mr. Klayman. A little joke, that's all. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: We're not supposed to 8 make jokes. 9 THE WITNESS: No, George 10 Stephanopolous was not there, nor James 11 Carville, nor Mrs. Clinton. 12 MR. COHEN: Let's take a break. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Why? 14 MR. COHEN: It's hot. I want to 15 get some more coffee and some water, and I 16 want to chat with Craig for a second. If you 17 guys would be so kind as to get me coffee and 18 water, I would really appreciate it. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 20 video record at 10:58. 21 (Recess) 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 58 1 video record at 11:08. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Have you communicated with anyone 4 else at The White House since you've left 5 other than Mr. Hughes and the communications 6 that occurred at this retirement ceremony? 7 A Well, sir, I have seen people on 8 the street, to be sure. Some of those people 9 that I can recall seeing would be Paige 10 Reefe, Nick Friendly. 11 Q Nick Friendly? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And where did he work? 14 A In advance. And James Denbo. 15 Q And where did he work? 16 A Advance. 17 Q Are they still at The White House? 18 A They still do advance. They're not 19 on White House payroll, but they still do 20 Presidential advance. 21 Q I take it you mentioned something 22 about your current predicament over this 59 1 controversy known as Filegate with them? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: I think my friends 4 are pretty courteous in that it's not 5 something I particularly enjoy talking about, 6 so we try not to talk about it. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q But you did talk about it? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q In fact, it's almost impossible not 14 to, isn't it? 15 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 16 the question, argumentative, badgering. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 18 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think 19 it's impossible not to talk about it. It 20 does not consume my every waking moment. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Are you saying you don't recall if 60 1 you talked to him? 2 A I'm saying I don't recall if I did. 3 Q Who else have you seen at The White 4 House? 5 A Beyond that I don't have a specific 6 recollection. If you'd like me to think 7 about it and get back to you later today, 8 I'll do my best. 9 Q That's fine You've seen James 10 Carville, haven't you? 11 A I saw Mr. Carville at a restaurant. 12 Q And when was that? 13 A I can't recall specifically, but I 14 was having lunch with a friend and he was 15 sitting at the bar, and I went up and said hi 16 to him and he said hi to me. He asked me how 17 things are going. I said I thought things 18 are going just fine. How are things going 19 for him, and he said things are going great, 20 and he wished me well, something along those 21 lines, and that was it. It was about two 22 minutes, hi, how are you? 61 1 Q You had known Mr. Carville from 2 before, correct? 3 A I knew who Mr. Carville was. 4 Q Had you met him before? 5 MR. COHEN: Before, just so we 6 date -- 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Before the encounter at the Palm 9 Restaurant? 10 A Yes, sir, I had met him before. 11 Q Where had you met him before? 12 A Once or twice in the campaign. He 13 was a senior advisor. I was an advance 14 person, and I worked on election night, and I 15 saw him around, and you'd have brief 16 chitchat. When they decided to ever -- The 17 White House decided to have political 18 advisors that have White House passes, have 19 fulfilled backgrounds, unlike the Bush and 20 the Reagan administrators; their advisors had 21 none. The Clinton White House decided to do 22 both tax and FBI fulfilled investigations, if 62 1 they were going to have a pass and not be on 2 White House payroll. And at some point, I 3 talked to him and/or his secretary about 4 necessary -- fill out his paperwork. 5 Q What did you talk to him, in terms 6 of the chitchat? 7 A Mr. Klayman, I understand it's your 8 right to have guests here, but would you mind 9 instructing your guests to be polite, and as 10 well, I will do with my counsel, not to 11 faces, noises, when I make responses. It's 12 irritating and unprofessional. 13 Q It's in the eyes of the beholder, 14 Mr. Livingstone. I know of no faces. 15 A They're sitting behind you; that's 16 the problem. I think it's discourteous. 17 Q We take issue with your 18 characterization, but I'm sure they will pay 19 the same courtesy to you as you paid to them. 20 A Clever. 21 MR. COHEN: Do you have a question, 22 Larry? 63 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 2 MR. COHEN: Why don't you ask a 3 question? 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What did you discuss during the 6 campaign with Mr. Carville? 7 A Very minor things, positioning of 8 cameras, positioning of crowd, positioning of 9 the governor, who came in and what came out, 10 logistical things involving the event. 11 Q In fact, you worked with 12 Mr. Carville during that campaign, correct? 13 A I did not work with Mr. Carville, 14 no. As I said before, and I'm happy to say 15 it again, Mr. Carville was a senior advisor 16 to the campaign. I was a member of the 17 advance staff. In that capacity, we worked 18 on the same campaign. 19 Q You did have contact with him from 20 time to time? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 22 answered. 64 1 THE WITNESS: I think I've answered 2 that about three times. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q The answer's yes? 5 A For the fourth time, yes. 6 Q You say you had another 7 conversation with him. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Was that? 10 A Talking about filling out his 11 paperwork, for his SF 86 and his IRS 12 background check, so that he could have a 13 permanent pass. 14 Q Did you have any conversations 15 beyond that with him? 16 A None that I can recall, but I don't 17 believe I did. 18 Q Have you had any conversations with 19 him since you've left The White House, other 20 than this encounter at the Palm? 21 A No, sir, I'm sure of that. 22 Q Mr. Carville, when you saw him at 65 1 the Palm, didn't deny knowing you; did he? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: You want to try to 4 give me an example what you mean by that? 5 I'm a little lost. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Exactly what I said. He didn't 8 deny knowing you when you walked over to him? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection, to whom? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q When you walked over to 12 Mr. Carville, he didn't deny knowing you; did 13 he? 14 A No, he didn't say I don't know you, 15 if that's what you're asking me. 16 Q He didn't say, do I know you; did 17 he? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you know of anyone that Carville 20 has spoken with since you've left The White 21 House? 22 A How would I know that, sir? 66 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Any people that you know that 5 Carville has spoken with since you left The 6 White House? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 8 overbroad. 9 MR. COHEN: Join the objection. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't see how I can 11 answer the question. I can tell you 12 specifically; I don't know anybody that's 13 talked to me and said, James Carville said X, 14 Y, Z. Does that help you? 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you know of anybody he's been in 17 contact with since you've left The White 18 House? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Other than yourself at the Palm 22 restaurant? 67 1 MR. COHEN: Objection. 2 THE WITNESS: Only what I read in 3 the paper or see on TV. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q During that retirement party, whom 6 did you talk with? 7 A I'm sorry? 8 Q During the retirement party that 9 you identified, whom did you talk with? 10 A Shirley, the honorary, Mr. King, 11 his assistant Mr. Wallace. Beyond that, very 12 few people. I didn't stay long. I don't 13 think I stayed 10 minutes, maybe 15. 14 Q Was anyone from Mrs. Clinton's 15 office at that party? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Anyone from the President's office 20 at the party? 21 MR. COHEN: Same objections, vague 22 and overbroad, not to mention irrelevant. 68 1 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Since you've left The White House, 4 have you talked to George Stephanopoulos? 5 A No. 6 Q Have you communicated with him in 7 any way? 8 A No. 9 Q Mike McCurry? 10 A No. 11 Q Dee Dee Myers? 12 A Maybe Dee Dee Myers. 13 Q Where did you talk to her? 14 A But I'm not positive. 15 Q Where did you talk to her? 16 A Shortly after my resignation. I 17 think she was on one of those cable shows and 18 asked if I would do a show, and I said, no, 19 thank you. She wished me well, and that was 20 it. 21 Q When she was on Equal Time? 22 A I'm not sure, sir, but it was 69 1 something like that, yes. 2 Q Did she talk to you about what 3 happened at The White House? 4 A No, sir. As I said, she asked me 5 if I'd like to be a guest on her show about 6 that issue. 7 Q Have you talked to William Kennedy 8 since you've left The White House? 9 A I may have talked to him once. I'm 10 not positive. Hope you're doing well. I 11 hope you're doing well, kind of thing. 12 Q When was that? 13 A I don't recall, sir. 14 Q In the last year? 15 A I think it was early, like '96. 16 Q Are you aware that he has been 17 deposed in this lawsuit? 18 A Yes, I'm aware of that. 19 Q How are you aware of that? 20 A From your Web site. 21 Q Have you read our Web site? 22 A I have. 70 1 Q Did you read his deposition? 2 A Part of it. 3 Q Have you talked with Betsy Pond? 4 A No. 5 Q Have you -- 6 MR. COHEN: This is again since he 7 left The White House, these questions? 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Have you talked with Steven Wadby? 12 A I don't remember who he is. I 13 remember his name, but I don't believe I 14 have. 15 Q Have you talked with Deborah 16 Gorham? 17 A No. 18 Q Bernard Nussbuam? 19 A No. 20 Q Joel Kline? 21 A No. 22 Q Bruce Lindsey? 71 1 A No. 2 Q Jane Sherburne? 3 A No. 4 Q Jack Quinn? 5 A No. 6 Q Sally Paxton? 7 A No. 8 Q You talk with anyone from the law 9 firm of Williams & Connolly? 10 A I don't know who works there, sir. 11 Q Excuse me? 12 A I don't know who works there. 13 Q Have you heard David Kendall? 14 A I know who David Kendall is. 15 Q He works there. 16 MR. COHEN: The question is, 17 whether he's talked with David Kendall? 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Have you talked to him? 20 A No. 21 Q Have you talked to Terry Lenzner? 22 A I don't know him. 72 1 Q Have you heard of him? 2 A I have heard of him. 3 Q What do you know him to be? 4 A I just heard of him in relation to 5 a newspaper. 6 Q Have you talked with anyone at his 7 company IGI International? 8 A Never heard of that company till 9 recently. 10 Q Have you talked to Jack Palladino? 11 A No, I don't believe so. 12 Q Anthony Pellicano? 13 A I don't believe I know any of those 14 individuals. 15 Q Larry Flynt? 16 A I'm quite positive I have not 17 talked to Larry Flynt. 18 Q Tanya Flynt? 19 A I don't know who Tanya Flynt is. 20 Q Anthony Marceca? 21 A I haven't talked to Anthony 22 Marceca. I think I've talked to Anthony 73 1 Marceca once. 2 Q When was that? 3 A Right after the hearings. He 4 called me up a couple times. He wanted to 5 wish me well, see how I was doing. I advised 6 him my counsel didn't think it appropriate 7 that we talked, and I didn't take his calls 8 after that. 9 Q At the time he had called you, are 10 you aware that he had taken the Fifth 11 Amendment? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I said it was 14 after the hearings. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You discussed with him why he took 17 the Fifth Amendment? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Respond. 21 A No, I did not discuss with him why 22 he took the Fifth Amendment. 74 1 Q Did he tell you why he took the 2 Fifth Amendment? 3 A No, we did not talk about the case. 4 Q Do you have any opinion as to why 5 he took the Fifth Amendment? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection. 7 THE WITNESS: I -- 8 MR. COHEN: I would caution you not 9 to discuss -- 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know anything 11 about why Tony would take the Fifth 12 Amendment. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Have you ever asserted the Fifth 15 Amendment? 16 A I have never asserted the Fifth 17 Amendment. 18 Q In any proceeding? 19 A In any proceeding, at any time. 20 Q Have you talked with Mary Anderson? 21 MR. COHEN: All these questions are 22 post-White House employment? 75 1 MR. KLAYMAN: After he left The 2 White House. 3 THE WITNESS: I can't remember if 4 we talked. I know that we were looking to 5 find her to help resolve what might have 6 happened, and we reached out to her, but I 7 cannot remember if she actually talked to me, 8 or my attorneys, or other people. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Have you read her deposition in 11 this case? 12 A Part of it. 13 Q On the Web site? 14 A Actually, I think I read that. My 15 attorneys provided that. 16 Q From the point that the Filegate 17 controversy became apparent, when the 18 Government Reform Committee discovered that 19 The White House had requested the file of 20 Billy Dale, do you remember that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q You talked to any of these people, 76 1 from that point up to the point you left The 2 White House, the ones I've just identified? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection. You 4 identified about 50 people. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q Let me ask a broad question. I'll 7 go back over it. 8 MR. COHEN: I object. 9 THE WITNESS: I would say, out of 10 that group, I talked to people in counsel's 11 office, primarily. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Whom did you talk to in counsel's 14 office? 15 A People that I talked to every day, 16 people that worked for me and the people I 17 worked for. 18 Q Who were they? 19 A Ed Hughes, Jonathan Denbo, Terry 20 Good, and my supervisor who was brought on 21 shortly before I left, and I just don't 22 recall his name, but I'm sure The White House 77 1 will be happy to provide it for you. 2 Q Did you talk to Jane Sherburne? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Did you talk to Sally Paxton? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Did you talk to Bruce Lindsey? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Did you talk to George 9 Stephanopoulos? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q I take it after the controversy 12 broke, that The White House conducted an 13 internal investigation? 14 A I believe that's correct. 15 Q What do you know about that 16 internal investigation? 17 A Very little. 18 Q Who was in charge of it? 19 A Don't know. 20 Q You were questioned; were you not? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Who questioned you? 78 1 A One of those individuals you named, 2 Ms. Paxton or Ms. Sherburne. 3 Q Where did they question you? 4 A In an office in the Executive 5 Office Building. 6 Q Were other people present? 7 A I don't recall who, but I believe 8 there were at least two other people present. 9 Q Who were the other people? 10 A I don't recall who. 11 MR. COHEN: Objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Do you know where they worked? 14 A I believe they worked in counsel's 15 office. 16 Q The people that were present took 17 notes? 18 A I don't know, sir. 19 Q You have no recollection? 20 A I don't remember them taking notes. 21 Q You took notes; didn't you? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection. 79 1 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't take 2 notes. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Did you have counsel present? 5 A I did not have counsel present. 6 Q Did they ask you to sign any 7 statements? 8 A I don't recall them asking me to 9 sign anything. 10 Q Did they record the conversations? 11 A I don't recall that they did. I 12 don't believe they did. 13 Q Now, the official White House 14 explanation for this is that the whole 15 Filegate controversy was an innocent 16 bureaucratic snafu, correct? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: Do you want to ask me 19 a question? 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q That is The White House explanation 22 for this controversy known as Filegate, 80 1 correct? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. 5 A I think the President of the United 6 States stated quite clearly that he thought 7 it was a bureaucratic snafu brought on by 8 outdated, ill-kept records of the U.S. Secret 9 Service, the FBI, and counsel's office. 10 Q Where did the President get that 11 information? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection. 13 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Is that something that you told 16 Ms. Sherburne or Ms. Paxton when you met with 17 them, this was just an innocent bureaucratic 18 snafu? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I object and 20 instruct the witness not to answer that 21 question on the ground of attorney-client 22 privilege. 81 1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Who in The White House have you 4 ever heard, or do you know, used the term, 5 other than the President, innocent 6 bureaucratic snafu, or anything to that 7 effect? 8 A I've seen it in magazines and 9 newspapers. 10 Q Have you ever discussed with 11 anyone, other than White House counsel, the 12 fact that this was a bureaucratic snafu? 13 A I'm sure, in my hundreds of hours 14 of testimony before various committees, I 15 have. 16 Q I'm talking about in The White 17 House. Let's exclude the counsel, the 18 lawyers. Who did you discuss the rationale 19 that what had happened was a bureaucratic 20 snafu with? 21 A I don't recall. I wasn't there 22 much longer after that conclusion came. 82 1 Q Were you ever called in to discuss 2 the Filegate controversy with Leon Panetta? 3 A No, I don't believe I ever had a 4 conversation with Leon Panetta. 5 Q John Podesta? 6 A No. 7 Q Anybody in the press office? 8 A No. 9 Q Anyone, generally, other than 10 counsel? 11 A Not to my recollection, but I don't 12 remember who was all in that room with 13 Ms. Sherburne. 14 Q Mac McLarty? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you know whether others had 17 discussions about what had occurred, giving 18 rise to the Filegate controversy at The White 19 House? 20 A I couldn't speak to that. 21 Q Did you ever discuss the Filegate 22 controversy with Harold Ickes? 83 1 A I don't think I've had a discussion 2 with Harold Ickes since he left The White 3 House, which was prior to my departure. 4 Q Did you have a discussion with him 5 while you were at The White House? 6 A About Filegate? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No. 9 Q Jack Quinn, same question. 10 MR. COHEN: Asked and answered. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q While you were at The White House. 13 A No, I don't think we did talk about 14 it. 15 Q You testified that you created 16 documents on your computer. Mary Anderson 17 also typed out things for you, correct? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q How did you give them to her so 20 that she could type them out? 21 A Orally, usually. 22 Q Did she take shorthand? 84 1 A I don't know. I assume she just 2 wrote down what was said. I don't know if it 3 was by shorthand. 4 Q You also communicated to her about 5 your White House security duties, correct? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q The duties included getting FBI 8 summaries, correct? 9 A That's correct, sir. 10 Q She would create documents on her 11 computer after you told her to do that, 12 correct? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 14 Lack of foundation. 15 THE WITNESS: What kind of 16 documents? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Written documents. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I mean, I just don't 21 know where you're going with that. I told 22 you that she did memos, locked the door at 85 1 certain times, blue files go in file drawer 2 number four, things like that, but certainly 3 not anything about BIs or material from the 4 IRS. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q She created computer disks; did she 7 not? 8 A I don't know. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q She testified that she did, 12 correct? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: I believe I read that 15 in her deposition. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q She testified that she didn't know 18 what happened to those computer disks, 19 correct? 20 A I believe I also read that in the 21 deposition. 22 Q You took those computer disks; 86 1 didn't you? 2 A Absolutely not. 3 Q Are those computer disks located in 4 your counsel's office? 5 A They're are no computer disks 6 located in my counsel's office or on my 7 person. 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Did you destroy computer disks 11 taken from The White House? 12 A Absolutely not. 13 Q Do you know whether anyone has ever 14 searched the backup computer systems of The 15 White House to see whether the documents 16 created on the computer still exist? 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 18 vagueness, lack of foundation. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You can respond. 21 A I have no way of knowing that, sir. 22 Q When you worked in The White House 87 1 Office of Personnel Security, there were 2 surveillance systems, correct? 3 MR. COHEN: Objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q That you were aware of? 6 A Surveillance systems, where? 7 Q In The White House Office of 8 Personnel Security. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection, vague. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any 11 surveillance systems in that office. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Are you aware of video 14 surveillance? 15 A In my office? 16 Q In your suite. 17 A In my 12x12 room? No, I'm not 18 aware of any video surveillance. 19 Q Your 12x12 room that you're 20 referring to is your office? 21 A Right. 22 Q Mary Anderson, where did she sit? 88 1 A In that 12x12 with me and one other 2 person. 3 Q Did that 12x12 enter into a safe? 4 A Yes, sir, it did. 5 Q There was video surveillance in the 6 safe? 7 MR. COHEN: Objection. 8 THE WITNESS: Unknown to me. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Had you ever heard anyone say that 11 there was video surveillance in that office 12 and in that safe? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Are you aware of any surveillance 15 systems at The White House? 16 MR. COHEN: Anywhere? 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Anywhere. 19 A It's my understanding that there's 20 surveillance systems throughout The White 21 House, in the hallways, and on the grounds. 22 Q Where did you get that information? 89 1 A Personal observation, mostly. 2 Q What did you observe? 3 A Seeing cameras sweep outdoor areas, 4 seeing little video screens by certain guard 5 posts showing sectors of The White House. 6 Q The video surveillance was in the 7 hallways? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Was the video surveillance also in 10 certain office suites? Did you observe that? 11 A No, sir, I did not. 12 Q Do you know who controlled those 13 video surveillance systems? 14 A I believe it was Uniform Division, 15 Control Division. 16 Q Of The White House? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Are you aware of Secret Service 19 surveillance systems? 20 A Well, the Uniform Division is a 21 part of the Secret Service. 22 Q Do you have any knowledge of audio 90 1 monitoring in The White House? 2 A I was told that they monitor along 3 the fence for possible terrorist activity or 4 threats to the President, but I don't know 5 how much of that stuff I can talk about. 6 It's probably national security. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Do you have anything 8 further about Secret Service security 9 systems, Mr. Klayman? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Did you tell Secret Service Agent 12 Cole that it wasn't safe to talk in your 13 office? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection. 15 THE WITNESS: If you could show me 16 that document, I'll look at it and respond to 17 it. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q From your memory. 20 A Well, so I could have good context 21 of the entire conversation. 22 Q I'm asking you this. I'll show you 91 1 the document, but I want to know whether or 2 not you told Secret Service Agent Cole that 3 it wasn't safe to talk in your office? 4 MR. COHEN: Ever? Are you 5 referring to a particular conversation, 6 Mr. Klayman, or ever? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Ever. 8 MR. COHEN: Ever? 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Ever. 10 THE WITNESS: I may have said 11 something along the lines of that, but not as 12 you state it, or he states it. I have read 13 what he said. Mainly, I just didn't want to 14 talk to him in my office. I was on my way 15 somewhere, and I wanted to be on my way. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q So you lied to him? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 20 MR. COHEN: Mischaracterizes the 21 witness, and I think it's abusive. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't lie to 92 1 him. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q But it was untrue? 4 A I don't think it's untrue. 5 Q It's not untrue that it wasn't safe 6 to talk in your office? 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 8 MR. COHEN: Object to the form of 9 the question. I don't understand the 10 question. 11 THE WITNESS: That's what he said I 12 said. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q If you said it to him, you said it 15 just to get rid of him? 16 A If I said something to him, I said 17 something along the lines that I didn't want 18 to talk in the office. 19 Q Why didn't you want to talk in the 20 office? 21 A As I said, just I didn't want to 22 talk in the office, because I was on my way 93 1 somewhere. If you go in someone's office, 2 you usually sit down, have a nice pleasant 3 chat. You're courteous. So we had a nice 4 courteous chat outside with the idea that we 5 both could move on quickly to wherever we're 6 going. 7 Q Why did you have to tell him it 8 wasn't safe to talk in your office? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection. 10 Mischaracterizes the testimony. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Can't you just say, I'm busy now? 14 MR. COHEN: Objection. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Argumentative. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q You can respond. 18 A I think I've answered your 19 question, sir. 20 MR. COHEN: What's the question? 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Why did you have to tell somebody 94 1 something which you claim is not true? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. That 3 mischaracterizes his testimony. He did not 4 claim it was not true. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't have any 6 other answer, other than what I said. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Did you ever record any 9 conversations in your office? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever record any 12 conversations anywhere else? 13 A No. 14 Q Are you aware of surveillance 15 systems in The White House residence? 16 A I don't think I can talk to those 17 issues. 18 Q You have to respond. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Other than those 20 provided by the Secret Service? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: I just asked a 22 general question. 95 1 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm going to 2 instruct the witness not to talk about any 3 White House security systems operated by the 4 Secret Service. 5 THE WITNESS: Then it's easy to 6 answer. I don't know of any other security 7 systems. I have no knowledge of any other 8 security services outside of the Secret 9 Service commission, which is to protect the 10 family. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You have visited The White House 13 residence on a number of occasions, correct? 14 A I have been a guest, along with 15 several hundred other low level, mid-level 16 staffers. On occasion, the President and the 17 First Lady, in their good grace, would invite 18 staff to celebrate Christmas or the holidays. 19 I think I attended an event with Mr. Gore and 20 a group of Tennesseeans, who I knew from 21 working on a previous campaign. I've never 22 been in the mansion, on the living quarters, 96 1 ever, never been up there. 2 Q Are you saying the only time you 3 ever visited the residence was to go to some 4 kind of party? 5 A Or give a tour. 6 Q Did you ever take FBI summary 7 reports to The White House residence? 8 A Absolutely not, nor was I ever 9 asked to. 10 Q In fact, you showed FBI summary 11 materials to Mrs. Clinton; didn't you? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 13 MR. COHEN: Objection. 14 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, bald 15 faced lie. 16 MR. COHEN: You answered his 17 question. 18 THE WITNESS: I answered that 19 question before. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You have taken documents to 22 Mrs. Clinton office; haven't you? 97 1 MR. COHEN: Objection, form. 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 THE WITNESS: I think I delivered 4 forms to be filled out, that type of thing, 5 to Maggie Williams' assistant. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Who was she? 8 A Like I would do at any office in 9 the West Wing, because they're busy. 10 Q Who was she? 11 A Who was Maggie Williams? 12 Q No, who was the assistant? 13 A I don't recall. Might even have 14 been an intern. 15 Q You took other types of documents 16 to Mrs. Clinton's office; didn't you? 17 MR. COHEN: Object to the form. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You don't remember? 22 A If you have something to refresh my 98 1 memory, I'm sure I could tell you. 2 Q You are aware that Mary Anderson 3 testified sometimes left your office with FBI 4 materials in tow? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Under your arm? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection to the 9 question. Mischaracterizes the testimony. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't know. Why 11 don't you try asking another question? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q No, I'm going to ask the question. 14 A Then I guess I'll ask you to ask it 15 one more time, and I'll listen carefully. 16 I'm sorry. 17 Q You are aware that Mary Anderson 18 testified that you sometimes left the office 19 with FBI materials under your arm? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection. 21 Mischaracterizes the testimony. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not aware of 99 1 that. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You did leave your office sometimes 4 with FBI materials; didn't you? 5 A That's a different question. 6 Q Please answer. 7 A I would, upon request of counsel's 8 office, I would see my supervisor, who was 9 located on the floor above me in the EOB, and 10 on very rare occasions, I would be asked to 11 bring over the personnel file, which would 12 sometimes include the background report from 13 the FBI on current pass holders. Sometimes 14 they would be reviewing them for promotions, 15 postings elsewhere, whatever, and they wanted 16 to review their file to see if they were 17 suitable for that position, and that was 18 always on current employees. 19 Q You sometimes took FBI materials to 20 Mrs. Clinton's office; didn't you? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 100 1 answered. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that 3 I ever delivered or was asked to deliver, for 4 that matter, summary reports from the FBI to 5 Maggie Williams or Ms. Clinton, for that 6 matter. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Any other materials from the FBI? 9 A No. I, don't believe Maggie 10 Williams would be approved to do that. I 11 mean, Mr. Nussbaum or others would have to 12 tell me that that was okay to do. 13 Q They did tell you it was okay to do 14 from time to time; didn't they? 15 MR. COHEN: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: They never did, not 17 once. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Do you remember the day that Vince 20 Foster died? 21 A Yes, sir, I do. 22 Q On that date, you removed FBI 101 1 summaries from Mr. Foster's safe in 2 Mr. Nussbaum's office and took them to 3 Hillary Clinton; didn't you? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 5 MR. COHEN: Objection, form. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, form, 7 lack of foundation. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall being 9 in Mr. Foster's office the day he died at all 10 or for that -- 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can't remember one way or the 13 other? 14 A Or for that matter, Mr. Nussbaum's. 15 No, I don't think I was. 16 Q You were in Mr. Foster's office the 17 day after he died; weren't you? 18 A No, I don't believe I went inside. 19 I peered inside the door. I didn't think it 20 was appropriate that I go in his office. 21 Q You saying that you didn't go in 22 there and remove materials from Foster's 102 1 office? 2 A Unequivocally no. 3 Q Who did? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q You did see people in Mr. Foster's 6 office; didn't you? 7 A I did. 8 MR. COHEN: Just timeframe again, 9 we're talking the day after Mr. Foster's 10 suicide; is that what you're asking? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Day after his death. 14 A I did, and I'm sure there's a 15 record of me very early that morning talking 16 with an Irish inspector. I can't remember 17 his name, and I had asked him that -- I 18 talked to Mr. Nussbaum, and I thought it was 19 important that they seal Mr. Foster's office 20 as quickly as possible. 21 Q Have you ever been in a safe in 22 Mr. Nussbaum's office? 103 1 A I have never been in a safe in 2 Mr. Nussbaum's office. 3 Q Do you know he had a safe? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q You had seen the safe? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Mr. Nussbaum knew your name; didn't 8 he? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection, calls for 10 speculation. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 12 mean, sometimes he would say hi to me, and 13 sometimes he didn't, but I didn't know if 14 that was just because he was too busy. 15 MR. COHEN: Larry, can we take a 15 16 second break so I can get some water? 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure. 18 (Pause) 19 MR. COHEN: All set. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 21 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 22 Exhibit 4. 104 1 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibit 2 No. 4 was marked for 3 identification.) 4 MR. COHEN: I don't think 2 and 3 5 ever got tendered to the court reporter. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Showing you Exhibit 4, this 8 consists of a letter of September 18, 1996, 9 two pages, from your counsel to the Office of 10 Independent Counsel; a letter of 11 September 18, 1996, from the Office of 12 Independent Counsel to your counsel, 13 Mr. Cohen, two pages; a letter of May 16, 14 1997, to Rod J. Rothenstein. 15 MR. COHEN: Rosenstein. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Rosenstein from David S. Cohen, 18 Rosenstein being with the Independent 19 Counsel's Office; a letter of May 21, 1997, 20 to your counsel, David Cohen from the Office 21 of Independent Counsel, two pages; and a fax 22 cover sheet from the Office of Independent 105 1 Counsel. 2 Turning your attention to that last 3 letter from the Office of Independent Counsel 4 to your Counsel which is Bates Number 5 LIV 0351, do you see that? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q It states, "This is in response to 8 your May 16, 1996, letter concerning your 9 client Craig Livingstone. In our recent 10 conversation, I did not say that 11 Mr. Livingstone's status has 'eased,' or 12 anything that should cause you to draw such 13 an inference. Mr. Livingstone's status 14 remains as set forth in Steve Colloton's 15 letter of September 28, 1996." 16 MR. COHEN: That's not what that 17 says. 18 MR. GILLIGAN: September 18th, I 19 believe. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q September 18, 1996. "We have never 22 told you that Mr. Livingstone was under any 106 1 threat of indictment in connection with our 2 investigation of the Office of Personnel 3 Security, so there is no threat to ease. " 4 Is that your understanding of the 5 situation, which continues to today? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Nothing has changed between May 21, 8 1997, and the present, which changes that 9 statement by the Office of Independent 10 Counsel, that you know of? 11 A That's correct, sir. 12 Q Have you been interviewed between 13 May 21, 1997, and today by the Office of 14 Independent Counsel? 15 A I'd have to confer with my counsel. 16 I can't recall the last time I was in there. 17 MR. COHEN: Whatever conference 18 he's going to have with me is going to be 19 attorney-client privilege, so just ask your 20 question. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Not the fact that he 22 was interviewed. That's not attorney-client 107 1 priviledge. We're not asking him what was 2 discussed. 3 MR. COHEN: Ask him if he recalls 4 having gone in after May 21, 1997. If he 5 recalls, he recalls. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you recall the answer to the way 8 your counsel phrased that question? 9 A Yeah, as I said prior to that 10 conversation you two had, I cannot recall 11 what the last date was that I had a meeting 12 with the Independent Counsel. 13 Q The second paragraph, "Nonetheless, 14 I accept your point," your attorney's point, 15 "that any public disrepute that resulted from 16 the high-profile nature of the congressional 17 investigation and Mr. Livingston's televised 18 resignation might be somewhat lessened when 19 our investigation concludes." 20 Have you been told by the Office of 21 the Independent Counsel that its 22 investigation with regard to you has 108 1 concluded.? 2 MR. COHEN: I would object to the 3 question, to the extent you're asking for 4 attorney-client privilege communications. 5 Beyond that, anything that you and I have 6 discussed, you can answer. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't have anything 8 to say. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Excuse me? 11 A I don't have a reply. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 13 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 14 Exhibit 5. 15 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibit 16 No. 5 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Exhibit 5 is an article which 20 appeared in The Boston Globe, "Starr Keeps 21 Momentum Going in Investigation of Clintons," 22 by Michael Kraynish, dated April 3, 1998, at 109 1 page 2, it states, third paragraph, "While 2 Starr has not issued a report about his 3 findings, a lawyer for Craig Livingstone, the 4 former White House director of personnel 5 security, said yesterday that Starr's office 6 told him Livingstone was cleared." 7 Is that a correct statement? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. Is the 9 question whether this reporter's recitation 10 of his conversation with one of Craig's 11 lawyers is a correct recitation of that 12 conversation? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. 14 MR. COHEN: If you know the answer 15 to that question, go ahead and answer it. 16 THE WITNESS: All I can tell you, 17 is that it attests here on this paper that 18 Starr issued a report, and Craig Livingstone, 19 according to this reporter, said it, but I 20 don't know anything about it beyond that. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know that statement to be 110 1 false? 2 A I have not heard from my lawyer 3 saying that I was cleared. 4 Q There's a statement, "'They told us 5 last May they had no intention of taking any 6 action against Craig,' Livingstone's 7 attorney, Randall Turk, said in an 8 interview." Is that a correct statement? 9 MR. COHEN: Is your question 10 whether that is a correct quotation of what 11 Mr. Turk told the reporter, or is that 12 consistent with Craig's understanding of the 13 Independent Counsel's investigation? 14 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I'm asking 15 whether he knows what's stated there to be 16 true or false. 17 MR. COHEN: That question -- 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't mess up 19 my question. I'm not getting into -- 20 MR. COHEN: I don't understand your 21 question. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not getting into 111 1 any communication. I'm just asking him 2 whether he knows whether this is true or 3 false, what was said here in The Boston 4 Globe, "They told us last May they had no 5 intention of taking any action against 6 Craig." 7 MR. COHEN: I will caution 8 Mr. Livingstone not to respond to that 9 question in any way that would reveal 10 attorney-client communications. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't have anything 12 to say. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: This is not an 14 attorney client communication, because it's 15 now published in a newspaper. 16 MR. COHEN: But if you're asking 17 him about conversations he may have had with 18 myself or Mr. Turk, that would be an 19 attorney-client communication. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask him 21 that. I asked him whether he knows, 22 Mr. Livingstone, whether this statement is 112 1 true or false. 2 MR. COHEN: And if the basis of 3 that information may be a communication that 4 he had with either myself or Mr. Turk, then 5 he would be revealing attorney-client 6 communication. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: You're giving him 8 testimony, and I object to that. Certify it. 9 My question is neutral. It does not ask for 10 your communication. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Do you know whether or not that 13 statement is true or false, you, Craig 14 Livingstone? 15 A Reading it, like it says it, no, I 16 don't know if it's true or false. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what 18 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as 19 Exhibit 6. 20 (Livingstone Deposition Exhibit 21 No. 6 was marked for 22 identification.) 113 1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, if I 2 may, if you're asking me if do I think the 3 newspaper article is consistent with what the 4 Independent Counsel sent my attorneys, I 5 would agree with you; that's consistent. 6 Does that help? Is that what you're asking 7 me? I'm sorry. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q I'm asking what your understanding 10 is. Your understanding as of today, Craig 11 Livingstone, is that you've been cleared by 12 the Independent Counsel, correct? 13 A They have given me no reason to 14 believe that I am a target of their 15 investigation. 16 Q So the answer is yes? 17 MR. COHEN: Objection. 18 THE WITNESS: No, the answer is 19 they have not told me I'm a target. They've 20 told me I'm not a target of their 21 investigation. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 114 1 Q I'm not asking you about anything 2 you discussed with your attorney. Is it your 3 belief that you've been cleared by the 4 Independent Counsel? 5 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 6 answered, but you can respond. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I'm a 8 target, nor have I ever been a target of 9 their investigation. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q So the answer is yes, that you've 12 been cleared, correct? 13 MR. COHEN: Objection, asked and 14 answered. 15 THE WITNESS: I believe I answered 16 it, to the best of my ability. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q You have to answer it the way I 19 phrased it. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 21 MR. COHEN: I object to that. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 115 1 Q Is it your understanding you've 2 been cleared? 3 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not funny, 4 Mr. Gilligan. This is not a funny matter. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: It's not a funny 6 matter, Mr. Klayman, but your instruction to 7 the witness was objectionable. 8 THE WITNESS: I will try again, 9 Mr. Klayman. It's my understanding that I am 10 not now, nor have I ever been, a target of 11 any investigation under Mr. Starr or any 12 other individual. Therefore, I can conclude 13 today that I am not in any danger of being 14 prosecuted for anything. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q So the answer is yes, you've been 17 cleared? 18 A I answered it, sir. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. Asked and 20 answered. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q Do you know why you're in no danger 116 1 of being prosecuted? 2 MR. COHEN: I object to the leading 3 nature of that question. 4 THE WITNESS: You asked me what I 5 believed, sir. I told you what I believe. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Do you have facts to support that 8 conclusion? 9 A I don't have a foundation for it. 10 That's, as you said, what I feel today. 11 Q Do you know whether Mr. Marceca is 12 in danger of being prosecuted? 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 14 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Do you have any reason to believe 17 that he will be prosecuted? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q Has he ever told you that he fears 20 prosecution? 21 A No, he hasn't. 22 Q Do you know if he's ever told 117 1 anyone else he fears prosecution? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q So, as far as you know Mr. Marceca 4 has never told anyone that he fears 5 prosecution? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 7 MR. COHEN: Objection. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Correct? 10 A I think what I said was I was 11 unaware of any conversations that he may have 12 had with any individuals that might have 13 gotten back to me about his fear of 14 prosecution. I don't know if he's had 15 conversations with millions of other 16 possibilities that are out there. 17 Q You are a close friend of 18 Mr. Marceca, correct? 19 A I would say that he's a friend. 20 Q Close friend? 21 MR. COHEN: Objection. Vague. If 22 you want to define "close friend." 118 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q As you would describe "close," he's 3 a close friend? 4 MR. COHEN: Today, are we asking? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Please, Mr. Cohen, do 6 not interject. We went through this once 7 with the court, and the court has some 8 guidance on this issue. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 10 of the question. 11 THE WITNESS: I have nothing 12 disparaging to offer as regards to 13 Mr. Marceca. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q I didn't ask you whether there was 16 anything disparaging. I asked you whether 17 you consider him a close friend as you define 18 the term? 19 A I think Tony has always been a good 20 friend. 21 Q Close friend? 22 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 119 1 of the question. Asked and answered. Vague. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You define close as good? 4 A I think they're different. Close 5 is somebody you'd have over for dinner on 6 your mother's birthday. 7 Q What's a good friend? 8 A A good friend is somebody you work 9 with, you have lunch with once a month, you 10 make an effort to stay in touch in each 11 other's lives, that kind of thing. 12 Q Someone you care about? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Turn your attention to page 132, 15 this is an excerpt from the committee on 16 government reform and oversight investigation 17 of The White House Travel Office firings, 18 House Report 104-849. 19 MR. COHEN: I'm sorry. What page 20 are you on, Mr. Klayman? 21 MR. KLAYMAN: One thirty-one. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 120 1 Q Take an opportunity, 2 Mr. Livingstone, and review from part E, 3 middle of the page, to the next page, the 4 first three paragraphs, 131 to 132. 5 Have you read that? 6 MR. COHEN: I haven't. 7 THE WITNESS: How far do you want 8 me to read? 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q First three paragraphs of page 132. 11 Have you read that far? 12 A I have. 13 Q Now let's go back to 131, the last 14 paragraph. "Exactly when Livingstone arrived 15 at The White House has become an issue in 16 both the general investigation of Foster's 17 death and the issue of whether any documents 18 were removed from Foster's office. The 19 latter is significant because the Secret 20 Service agent testified that he saw 21 Livingstone the morning after Foster's death, 22 July 21, coming down from the area of the 121 1 counsel's office with records." 2 That's a correct statement, isn't 3 it? 4 MR. COHEN: Objection. The 5 question is vague and ambiguous. It's 6 irrelevant. If you can answer, answer. 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I certainly 8 can. I was just rereading it again. Well, 9 first of all, the individual wasn't a Secret 10 Service agent. He was a member of the 11 uniformed division. He was a guard, and he 12 was posted in the basement or ground level of 13 the West Wing entrance on West Exec. There's 14 no possible way he could know where I was 15 coming from if in fact I came from anywhere 16 when I came out of that elevator. The only 17 place that elevator goes is to the first 18 floor and the second floor, which goes to a 19 myriad of offices and no less than 12 20 different offices. 21 What I can tell you that I do 22 remember is that I did not remove any 122 1 documents from Mr. Foster's office. I was 2 not asked to remove documents that had been 3 removed from Mr. Foster's office, and I did 4 not remove any documents from counsel's 5 office that belonged to Mr. Foster. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q But you did have documents with you 8 that day, correct? 9 A I don't know. I think what it says 10 here is I testified that I don't recall if I 11 was transferring documents back and forth 12 from the West Wing to the vault in the OEOB, 13 but I am sure that I wasn't doing anything 14 untoward or out of the normal scope of my 15 everyday duties. 16 Q It then states, "Secret Service 17 agent Bruce Abbott testified that he saw 18 Livingstone passing his post at the West Wing 19 basement entrance approximately four times 20 that morning. Mr. Abbott estimates the time 21 when he saw Livingstone at or around 7:00 22 a.m." Is the individual you're talking about 123 1 Mr. Abbott? 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. You've 3 misread what it says on this report from the 4 committee, and I also object to the question 5 as vague and ambiguous. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 A Officer Abbott, not Agent Abbott, 10 was the officer on post that morning for some 11 time period. I don't know when he left, but 12 he left sometime in the morning, so it's 13 possible that he saw me come and go. 14 Q And it's possible he saw you with 15 documents? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I 18 don't recall having any documentation. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q You don't know one way or the other 21 at this point? 22 A I don't believe I did that morning. 124 1 Q It then states, "On one occasion 2 Abbott saw Livingstone carrying a briefcase 3 accompanied by a man in his 20s carrying an 4 open box with binders on the top. Mr. Abbott 5 then spoke to his supervisor, agent Dennis 6 Martin, relaying this information about 7 Livingstone." 8 Is that a correct statement? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection. Calls for 10 speculation, irrelevant. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 12 THE WITNESS: That's what it says 13 on the piece of paper. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: I would ask, when you 15 make an objection, just make it as to form. 16 MR. COHEN: I think I'm allowed to 17 specify the basis of the form. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: The federal rules say 19 you only have to make it as to form. The 20 court has issued instructions here 21 particularly with regard to you, Mr. Cohen. 22 Some of your objections have had the 125 1 tendency, at best, to give the witness 2 answers before. 3 MR. COHEN: I object to that 4 characterization. I will state my objections 5 in a proper manner and have been doing so. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q What's your answer, 8 Mr. Livingstone? 9 MR. COHEN: Can you reread the 10 question, please? 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Is that statement that I just read 13 to you, the second paragraph, correct or not? 14 MR. COHEN: I restate the 15 objection. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't recall, sir. 17 Again, I don't recall carrying a box of 18 binders or files that particular morning. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q When were you born, 21 Mr. Livingstone? 22 MR. COHEN: Are we done with this 126 1 document? 2 MR. KLAYMAN: For the time being. 3 THE WITNESS: May 6, 1959. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q And where was that? 6 A Dover, Delaware. 7 Q And where did you attend high 8 school? 9 A Several places. 10 Q Where was that? 11 A Biloxi High School, Biloxi, 12 Mississippi; Beaver High School in Beaver, 13 Pennsylvania; and Radford High School in 14 Honolulu, Hawaii. 15 Q And when did you graduate from high 16 school? 17 A 1977. 18 Q Up to that time, were you ever 19 convicted of a crime? 20 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 21 of the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I have never been 127 1 convicted of a crime of which I'm sure you 2 well know. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Up to that point in time, have you 5 ever been arrested? 6 MR. COHEN: Objection to the form 7 of the question. 8 THE WITNESS: As you well know, 9 again, I have never been arrested. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Well, you don't need to keep 12 telling me as I well know because I have no 13 reason to know well. Just answer the 14 question, please. 15 A It seems to me that you would. I 16 will answer the question, yes, sir. 17 Q Up to that point in time, did you 18 ever use marijuana or any drugs? 19 MR. COHEN: Objection. Irrelevant, 20 abusive, and what point in time are you 21 talking about? 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 128 1 MR. COHEN: It's vague. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Up to 1977. 4 A I don't think I really tried 5 marijuana until my senior year of high school 6 or first year of college. 7 Q Had you tried anything else up to 8 that point in time? 9 MR. COHEN: Objection to the 10 question. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to vagueness. 12 MR. COHEN: It's vague, it's 13 irrelevant, it's abusive. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: If we can have 15 Mr. Livingstone leave the room, I'll give you 16 a proffer. I think you know why I'm getting 17 into this. 18 MR. COHEN: I don't know. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a 20 two-minute break. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: I'd like to have the 22 proffer on the record. 129 1 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. I want 2 it on the record. 3 MR. COHEN: I'll be right back. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's just take a 5 two-minute break and then I'll do my proffer. 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 7 video record at 12:06. 8 (Recess) 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 10 video record at 12:07. 11 MR. COHEN: Before you make this 12 proffer, Mr. Klayman, I'd ask your agreement 13 that this portion of the transcript be sealed 14 and not made public absent a court order, in 15 respect to the privacy of Mr. Livingstone. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: First listen to my 17 proffer. 18 MR. COHEN: Why don't we agree in 19 advance that it be sealed, and if I think the 20 proffer is something that -- may I finish, 21 Mr. Klayman? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: I was about ready to 130 1 agree with you. 2 MR. COHEN: Why don't we seal it 3 and afterwards. If it's something I think 4 does not need to be sealed, we can agree 5 perhaps it not be sealed? 6 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine, and we 7 can go on a separate video for this, if you'd 8 like. 9 MR. COHEN: Let's do that, and 10 let's have everyone who is not a counsel or 11 party to this proceeding leave the room. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. So I 13 take it you understand why it is I'm asking 14 this questions. 15 MR. COHEN: I have no idea. In 16 fact, what I think you're doing is being 17 abusive, but I would like to hear your 18 proffer. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: No, it's not a novel 20 thought. It's been explored in other 21 settings, too, that it is the position -- 22 MR. COHEN: Stop. Stop. Let's go 131 1 into a sealed portion. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: This is public. 3 We're not getting into his information. This 4 is public. 5 MR. COHEN: Mr. Klayman, I 6 understand the position of various people. 7 Let's do this in a sealed portion of the 8 deposition. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you understand 10 what my proffer is? 11 MR. COHEN: I think I have an idea 12 where you're going, and I think it ought to 13 be sealed. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the reason that 15 it has to be on the record publicly is that 16 you've now alleged this is abusive, and I 17 want to put on the record why it's not 18 abusive and I want that public. 19 MR. COHEN: If it's not abusive, I 20 would be happy to so state after you make the 21 proffer. I am concerned that this is a 22 matter that is irrelevant to these 132 1 proceedings and unwarranted invasion of 2 Mr. Livingstone's privacy. 3 MR. KLAYMAN: This proffer will not 4 get into specifics of Mr. Livingstone's 5 background. The contention is as follows, 6 which is the same contention that the House 7 of Representatives have set forth in its 8 public report. 9 MR. COHEN: I will withdraw my 10 suggestion that you're doing this for abusive 11 purposes. Why don't we go into the sealed 12 purposes, and we'll hear what it is. 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 14 video record at 12:09. 15 (Discussion off the record) 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on 17 video record at 12:11. 18 MR. COHEN: Meaning no disrespect 19 to Mr. Fitton, but since is not an officer of 20 the court and therefore not bound by the 21 rules applicable to attorneys, I have asked 22 that he also absent himself from the room. 133 1 Mr. Klayman has asked that Mr. Fitton be 2 allowed to remain and has agreed to take 3 responsibility for Mr. Fitton maintaining the 4 confidentiality of what transpires on this 5 sealed portion of the transcript; is that 6 correct? 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Correct. He is in a 8 litigation support position. 9 MR. COHEN: And you have agreed to 10 take responsibility for Mr. Fitton? 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. Yes. 12 MR. COHEN: Okay. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, the proffer is 14 such and it is something which was raised by 15 the House of Representatives and the Senate 16 and others is that Craig Livingstone, based 17 on his background, could never have been 18 employed at The White House in the capacity 19 he was employed in, and that bears directly 20 on issues relevant to this stage of the 21 discovery process, and that's why I am going 22 to get into his background, and we can keep 134 1 it on this confidential record. If we cannot 2 agree to unseal portions of it, then we can 3 simply move the court to do that. 4 MR. COHEN: When you are suggesting 5 you're going to get into areas of his 6 background, what you intend to do is ask him 7 questions about drug use he may or may not 8 have engaged in when he was high school; is 9 that your intention? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: Among other things. 11 MR. COHEN: Well, I strongly object 12 to the relevance, and if the proposal is that 13 this all be done in this inquiry into the 14 background be done in a sealed portion of the 15 transcript, which I assume also means that 16 you won't be broadcasting this aspect of the 17 videotape absent court order; is that right? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: That's why I asked 19 for it to be put on a separate video. There 20 should be a separate transcript as well. 21 Hopefully we can agree what's public and 22 what's not public. If we can't, we'll ask 135 1 the court to make that decision. 2 MR. COHEN: That's fine. Absent an 3 agreement or court order it will remain 4 sealed? 5 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. In fact, I 6 might point out that Mr. Fitton has sat in on 7 numerous sealed proceedings, but I still take 8 responsibility for him. 9 MR. COHEN: With that agreement 10 that this remain sealed until such time as we 11 agree to unseal it or the court orders 12 otherwise, why don't we proceed? 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you bring 14 Mr. Livingstone back? Do you want to take 15 lunch now? 16 MR. COHEN: How long do you think 17 this will last? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: It's going to last a 19 while. We might as well take lunch now. 20 MR. COHEN: How long will this 21 segment last? 22 MR. KLAYMAN: At least an hour. 136 1 MR. COHEN: Let me see what 2 Mr. Livingstone's preference is. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off video 4 record at 12:14. 5 (Whereupon, at 12:14 p.m., a 6 luncheon recess was taken.) 7 * * * * * 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22