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_____________________________________ CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, et al., Defendants. _____________________________________ |
) ) ) ) ) ) Civil No. 96-2123/97-1288 (RCL) ) ) ) ) ) |
-------------------------x
Washington, D.C.
Wednesday, August 5, 1998
Deposition of
THOMAS F. McLARTY III
a witness, called for examination by counsel
for Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice and
agreement of counsel, continuing at
approximately 10:13 a.m., at the offices of
Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W.,
Washington, D.C., before Shari R. Broussard,
notary public in and for the District of
Columbia, when were present on behalf on the
respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE
4 Judicial Watch, Inc.
501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
(202) 646-5172
6
On behalf of the Executive
7 Office of the President (EOP) and
the Federal Bureau of
8 Investigations (FBI):
9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
U.S. Department of Justice
10 901 E Street, N.W., 9th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20004
11 (202) 514-5302
12 On behalf of Hillary Rodham Clinton:
13 MARCIE ZIEGLER, ESQUIRE
Williams & Connolly
14 725 Twelfth Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
15 (202) 434-5803
16 On behalf of The White House:
17 SALLY P. PAXTON, ESQUIRE
The White House
18 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20502
19 (202) 456-5076
20
21
22
3
1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D):
2 On behalf of the Witness:
3 ROGER C. SPAEDER, ESQUIRE
LESLIE BERGER KIERNAN, ESQUIRE
4 Zuckerman, Spaeder, Goldstein, Taylor &
Kolker, LLP
5 1201 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20036-2638
6 (202) 778-1848
7 ALSO PRESENT:
8 Sylvanus Holley, Videographer
9 C O N T E N T S
10 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
11 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5
12 Counsel for EOP and FBI 412
13 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY:
14 Counsel for Plaintiffs 414
15 McLARTY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
16 No. 1 - Subpoena 8
17 No. 2 - Objections and Responses to 15
Subpoena
18
No. 3 - Investigation Report, Pp. 171-175 97
19
No. 4 - The Wall Street Journal, 154
20 Interactive Edition
21 No. 5 - Investigation Report, Pp. 95-102 163
22 No. 6 - Investigation Report, Excerpt 172
4
1 McLARTY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS (CONT'D.): PAGE
2 No. 7 - Memorandum, Bates Stamped 206
FBI-00004335
3
No. 8 - Calendar Excerpts, 1994 330
4
No. 9 - Document, Bates Stamped TM 000003 373
5
No. 10 - Fax, Williams to Berger 374
6
No. 11 - Calendar Excerpts, 1993 376
7
No. 12 - Search - Query Document 383
8
No. 13 - Exhibit I, Bates Stamped 390
9 TM 000138-000142
10 No. 14 - Privilege Log 395
11 No. 15 - Copies of Checks 404
12 No. 16 - Business Week Article 407
13
14 * * * *
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
5
1 P R O C E E D I N G
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This
3 is the video deposition of Thomas McLarty,
4 taken by the counsel for the plaintiff in the
5 matter of Cara Leslie Alexander v. the
6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al., Case
7 Number 96-2123, in the U.S. District Court
8 for the District of Columbia, held in the
9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street,
10 Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this date,
11 August 5, 1998, and at the time indicated on
12 the video screen, which is 10:13 a.m.
13 My name is Sylvanus Holley. I'm
14 the videographer. The court reporter today
15 is Shari Broussard from the firm of Beta
16 Reporting. Will counsel now please introduce
17 themselves?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman,
19 general counsel of Judicial Watch.
20 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President,
21 Judicial Watch.
22 MR. SPAEDER: Roger Spaeder,
6
1 Zuckerman, Spaeder, Goldstein, Taylor &
2 Kolker in Washington. Counsel for the
3 witness, Thomas F. McLarty.
4 MS. KIERNAN: Leslie Berger Kiernan
5 of Zuckerman, Spaeder, counsel for
6 Mr. McLarty.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro on
8 behalf of the Executive Office of the
9 President.
10 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton with the
11 White House.
12 MS. ZIEGLER: Marcie Ziegler for
13 the First Lady.
14 VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
15 reporter please swear in the witness?
16 Whereupon,
17 THOMAS F. McLARTY III
18 was called as a witness, and having been
19 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
20 as follows:
21 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7
1 Q Would you please state your name?
2 A Thomas F. McLarty, the Third.
3 Q When were you born, Mr. McLarty?
4 A June 14, 1946.
5 Q Run me through just briefly your
6 educational background.
7 A Educated at the Hope Public
8 Schools, attended and graduated from the
9 University of Arkansas with a degree in
10 business.
11 Q Did there come a point in time when
12 you became employed by the White House?
13 A There did.
14 Q When was that?
15 A Officially January 20th, I believe,
16 right after the Inaugural of President
17 Clinton.
18 Q What were you employed as? What
19 was your title?
20 A Chief of Staff to the President.
21 Q Tell us what your duties and
22 responsibilities were as Chief of Staff to
8
1 the President.
2 A Essentially to organize the White
3 House staff to get a government in place in
4 those early days and to provide the President
5 and other senior officials with information
6 regarding the various decisions and matters
7 that came before the Executive Branch of
8 Government and to coordinate the various
9 cabinet agencies from the Executive Branch.
10 Q So from an operational standpoint
11 you were in charge of running the White
12 House, in essence?
13 A Yes, I was responsible for the
14 management of the White House.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I'll
16 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 1.
17 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
18 No. 1 was marked for
19 identification.)
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Before I ask that question, did
22 there come a point in time when your duties
9
1 changed with the White House?
2 A There did.
3 Q When was that?
4 A I believe it was in July of 1994.
5 Q How did they change?
6 A I resigned as Chief of Staff and
7 served as counselor to the President
8 until 1996.
9 Q What were your duties and
10 responsibilities as counselor to the
11 President?
12 A To advise and counsel in a broad
13 range of matters, but primarily focusing on
14 economic and trade matters and then there
15 were other particular special
16 responsibilities or projects that I was asked
17 to be responsible for and participate in.
18 Q Tell me what the advice was just in
19 terms of subject matter, not the actual
20 advice, on the broad range of matters. What
21 categories of matters besides trade and
22 economic matters?
10
1 A Economic and trade were what my
2 principal areas of focus were, Mr. Klayman,
3 so there were a number of matters that would
4 come under that rubric, whether it be trade
5 bills or increasing exports, trade related
6 matters. On the economic side, of course, it
7 would have to do with the deficit reduction.
8 Those type of matters.
9 Q Have you had any prior
10 international trade experience?
11 A Moderately, so. Certainly in my
12 responsibility as Chief of Staff I was deeply
13 involved in the passage of the North American
14 Fleet Trade Agreement.
15 Q Was that, principally, your
16 international trade experience up to that
17 point in time?
18 A Well, there were other matters, of
19 course, in the White House with the G7 and
20 the APAC conference as well. As a business
21 person, of course, you're exposed to trade
22 matters, economic matters, but they
11
1 have primarily been domestic.
2 Q You had been in the oil business, I
3 take it, before you joined the White House in
4 part?
5 A Actually in the natural gas
6 business.
7 Q Natural gas business. Is it in
8 that business that you gained international
9 trade experience?
10 A You, of course, have exposure to
11 international markets from an energy sector
12 standpoint, particularly.
13 Q When you became advisor to the
14 President in 1994, I take it you still had
15 the authority to provide general advice as
16 you saw fit?
17 A When it was asked for, yes.
18 Q Did you stay in that position as
19 advisor to the President until you left the
20 White House?
21 A No, in 1996 my responsibilities
22 were formalized, as I noted to you earlier.
12
1 There were a number of major special projects
2 that I had been involved in, in my role as
3 counselor. One of those, Mr. Klayman, had
4 been the Summit of the Americas in Miami,
5 dealing with the hemisphere, and I was asked
6 to be special envoy for the Americas in
7 December of 1996.
8 Q Can you tell us what all of those
9 special projects were?
10 A The two or three principal projects
11 that I recall were, one, the Summit of the
12 Americas, the organization of that summit of
13 at least 34 democratic-elected heads of the
14 state, and then I spent a lot of time on the
15 follow-up and that's where I became deeply
16 involved in the hemisphere.
17 The second was the primary point
18 person for the 1996 centennial games, the
19 Olympic games held in Atlanta, as the primary
20 interface with the Atlanta organizing
21 committee and the international organization
22 for the Olympics. Then there were other
13
1 particular special projects such as assisting
2 the Bosnian peace effort particularly with an
3 outreach to the Gulf states to be supportive
4 of the Bosnian Federation. Those are three
5 major projects that I recall sitting here
6 today.
7 Q So your position was formalized
8 in 1996, and how long did you stay with the
9 White House after that?
10 A I left the White House July 3rd of
11 this year.
12 Q What are you currently doing,
13 professionally speaking?
14 A Well, I'm transitioning back in the
15 private sector primarily working with our
16 family business, McLarty Companies, which is
17 a fourth-generation transportation business.
18 Q Where is that located?
19 A It's located in Little Rock,
20 Arkansas.
21 Q Now, I'm going to show you what has
22 been marked as Exhibit 1. This is a subpoena
14
1 which was served upon you. Can I ask you to
2 confirm if that was the subpoena that was
3 served upon you?
4 A Yes, I believe that it is.
5 Q Have you seen it before?
6 A I have.
7 Q Did you go through the document
8 request with your counsel?
9 A I did.
10 Q Have you produced any documents in
11 response to this subpoena here today?
12 A Yes, it's my understanding we have.
13 MS. KIERNAN: Mr. Klayman, I have
14 documents right here for you.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: We can go off the
16 record for a few minutes. I just want to
17 take a few minutes to look through these.
18 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
19 video record at 10:22 a.m.
20 (Discussion off the record)
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
22 record at 10:25 a.m.
15
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask the court
2 reporter to mark as Exhibit 2, Objections and
3 Responses of Nonparty Thomas F. McLarty, III,
4 to Plaintiffs' Subpoena Duces Tecum.
5 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
6 No. 2 was marked for
7 identification.)
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Mr. McLarty, have you seen this
10 document before, these objections?
11 A Mr. Klayman, I believe I have seen
12 it. I'm not -- I believe I've seen it. I'm
13 not as familiar with this document as I am
14 with the earlier document you asked me about.
15 Q What is this document, to the best
16 of your knowledge?
17 A I think it is a response prepared
18 by my attorneys regarding request for
19 information, if I understand it correctly.
20 Q Did you have an opportunity to
21 review this document before it was provided
22 to counsel?
16
1 A I believe I have seen it. I don't
2 believe I have reviewed this document
3 carefully.
4 Q Do you stand by the objections
5 contained in this document to plaintiffs'
6 Subpoena Duces Tecum, which is Exhibit 1?
7 A I certainly rely on my attorneys
8 for their advice and I certainly stand by
9 their positions, yes.
10 Q At the time that you left the White
11 House did you take certain documents with
12 you?
13 A I did.
14 Q Which documents did you take with
15 you when you left the White House?
16 A I took personal correspondence that
17 I had in the White House, Mr. Klayman. It
18 primarily was correspondence to my mother
19 and my brother, other family members, close
20 personal friends, and I took information that
21 I had gathered in regard to various legal
22 proceedings over the last several years where
17
1 I had been requested to be a witness in these
2 legal proceedings. Those were the two groups
3 of documents that I took with me as I left
4 the White House.
5 Q As part of your duties and
6 responsibilities as Chief of Staff and then
7 advisor, were you called upon from time to
8 time by the President to consult with him
9 about the various Clinton controversies? I'm
10 talking about matters like Travelgate,
11 Filegate, those types of issues.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
13 You can answer.
14 MS. KIERNAN: Go ahead.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, from time to
16 time I was -- participated in those
17 discussions -- about those matters -- those
18 types of matters.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q As Chief of Staff, it would be part
21 of your duties and responsibilities to know
22 exactly what the allegations concerning these
18
1 controversies were?
2 A To be aware of topical events. To
3 know exactly what the allegations were, I'm
4 not sure I would agree with that assessment.
5 Q Part of your duties and
6 responsibilities were to oversee efforts
7 within the White House to learn what the
8 underlying facts were concerning these
9 controversies?
10 A In the management of the White
11 House you delegated responsibilities of that
12 nature and, of course, depended on others to
13 have primary responsibilities or to go into
14 the level of detail I think you're
15 suggesting, but certainly to be, generally,
16 aware of them, Mr. Klayman.
17 Q How did the chain of command work
18 in terms of who reported to who when a fact
19 finding was undertaken concerning the Clinton
20 controversy such as Travelgate?
21 A It depended on the subject matter.
22 Where a particular responsibility or you
19
1 would ask someone to do certain functions.
2 It depended on the particular matter. Either
3 a Deputy Chief of Staff, the White House
4 Counsel's Office or a particular department,
5 for example, management administration in
6 terms of the travel matter. So it really
7 depended on the matter.
8 Q But ultimately were you the last
9 before the President who would get the report
10 on exactly what had occurred?
11 A The Chief of Staff, generally,
12 has the responsibility in that regard,
13 although the White House Counsel's Office, of
14 course, has in many ways the last word on a
15 legal matter.
16 Q So is it true that you would both
17 get a report when a damage assessment was
18 undertaken at the White House?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
20 THE WITNESS: Report, I think, is
21 a formal term. I think I have tried to
22 respond to your question and explain how you
20
1 would have various people working on various
2 matters and it really depended on the
3 circumstances and the matters that were being
4 reviewed.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q It is true, however, that you were
7 the last person, in terms of authority, that
8 individuals that were undertaking these
9 assessments would report to short of the
10 President?
11 A Mr. Klayman, generally, that would
12 be the case. We did not have a perfectly
13 hierarchical structure. Of course, I travel
14 some from time to time. But generally, as
15 Chief of Staff, that's how you try to manage
16 the operation, I believe, yes.
17 Q So when you left the White House,
18 you took two classes of documents; one, your
19 personal correspondence and the other dealing
20 with the various Clinton controversies and
21 your testimony in those controversies?
22 A Various legal proceedings where I
21
1 had been asked to testify and I had gathered
2 material in preparation for my testimony.
3 Q Did you take any other types of
4 documents when you left the White House?
5 A No, I did not.
6 Q Did anyone assist you in gathering
7 up these documents that you left the White
8 House with?
9 A Yes, they did.
10 Q Who was that?
11 A My personal attorneys. I asked
12 them to assist me in this matter and work
13 closely with White House Counsel's Office in
14 that regard, and my immediate office staff in
15 the White House.
16 Q Were your personal attorneys called
17 in to the White House to actually go through
18 the files?
19 A They were.
20 Q Did they have security clearances
21 to do that?
22 A I don't know.
22
1 Q What files did they go through?
2 A It is my -- I asked them to
3 carefully review all of my files and to
4 handle them in a very careful manner working
5 with White House Counsel's Office and I and
6 am confident that they did so.
7 Q Which specific attorneys came into
8 the White House to undertake that review?
9 A Ms. Austin and Mr. Leslie Berger
10 Kiernan.
11 Q The two attorneys that are present
12 here today?
13 A No, Ms. Austin is not present.
14 Mr. Spaeder.
15 Q Mr. Spaeder, Roger?
16 A Roger did not participate in this.
17 Q What's Ms. Austin's first name?
18 A Kelly.
19 Q Kelly Austin.
20 Do you know what her duties and
21 responsibilities are at the law firm?
22 A She's an associate there. I don't
23
1 know her precise duties and responsibilities.
2 Q Which files did he go through
3 specifically, as well as the other lawyer
4 that came in?
5 A It is my understanding that there
6 was a careful review of all of my files and
7 those were the two files that I took with me.
8 The rest, as I understand it, are in records
9 management in the White Office because
10 they're official documents.
11 Q You say that your attorneys worked
12 closely with White House counsel. Who in
13 White House Counsel's Office did they work
14 with?
15 A I am not certain the exact
16 attorneys they worked with.
17 Q Was it at the time that Mr. Ruff
18 was the White House counsel?
19 A Yes, it would have been.
20 Q Did they work directly with
21 Mr. Ruff?
22 A I do not know.
24
1 Q Was there any kind of writing
2 prepared to serve as a guidepost as to what
3 documents could be taken from the file
4 initially and those which would then be
5 reviewed for you to take ultimately to your
6 new private position?
7 A There are various policies. How
8 much is actually in writing, Mr. Klayman, I
9 honestly don't know.
10 I carefully instructed my attorneys
11 to work in a very diligent manner regarding
12 my files and I relied on them and I'm
13 confident that they did so and complied with
14 all of the existing policies.
15 Q You were aware that before taking
16 documents from the White House that clearance
17 should be obtained?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You were aware that clearance
21 inside the White House should be obtained?
22 A Yeah.
25
1 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, what do you
2 mean by clearance? You're talking about --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Authorization to take
4 any documents off the premises.
5 THE WITNESS: I was aware that this
6 was an important matter that needed to be
7 handled in a careful and diligent way. As to
8 the exact and precise nature of clearance or
9 authorization, I'm not aware of that level of
10 detail, but I was aware you needed to handle
11 this matter in accordance with policies and
12 procedures and to the extent the laws govern
13 this.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q But you were aware that there were
16 laws in terms of what documents could be
17 taken and which could not even if you didn't
18 know the specifics?
19 A Again, I tried to be responsive. I
20 don't know about the level of detail that I
21 understood, but I was aware this needed to be
22 handled in a very careful, proper,
26
1 appropriate manner.
2 Q Well, I'm not asking you that
3 question. What I'm asking you is, based on
4 your considerable experience, based upon your
5 position as White House Chief of Staff and
6 then as an advisor to the President, you knew
7 that there were clearance procedures that
8 needed to be followed and legal guidelines
9 that needed to be followed and that's why you
10 called your attorneys in to handle it,
11 correct?
12 A Procedures and guidelines, I think
13 that's a fair -- fair way to put it.
14 Q You knew you just couldn't take
15 anything you wanted off the White House
16 premises?
17 A No, I did not believe I could nor
18 did I.
19 Q You know that many documents would
20 belong to the United States, not to you?
21 A Official documents, that's --
22 Q You wanted to do things the right
27
1 way?
2 A That's correct, and I believe we
3 did them the right way.
4 Q During the time that you worked in
5 the White House you are aware that White
6 House officials were advised that before they
7 could take documents off premises that there
8 were certain clearance procedures that had to
9 be followed, correct?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You can respond.
13 A You mean when they left the White
14 House employ, Mr. Klayman?
15 Q Yes.
16 A Is that what you're referring to?
17 Q Yes. That was well known among
18 high-level officials in the White House,
19 correct?
20 A That was my understanding, that
21 there was procedures and guidelines to follow
22 when you left government.
28
1 Q When you were White House Chief of
2 Staff, you made sure that officials working
3 in the White House knew these things,
4 correct?
5 A I either -- I relied on others to
6 make sure these kinds of policies and
7 procedures were followed that were directly
8 responsible for them.
9 Q Clearly, based on your knowledge
10 and experience of the White House, it would
11 be inappropriate for a White House official
12 to simply load up boxes, ask for no clearance
13 and just take them off the premises?
14 A I was aware there were policies,
15 guidelines, procedures in place to determine
16 how one should leave government and how
17 records should be handled.
18 Q So the answer is yes?
19 A Yes, that was my understanding.
20 I've tried -- tried to be responsive to it
21 several times.
22 Q Now, you were present in the White
29
1 House, were you not, when Howard Ickes left?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you remember when he left the
4 employment of the White House?
5 A I, generally, recall Mr. Ickes
6 leaving government, yes.
7 Q What was his position in the White
8 House during the period that you were there?
9 A Initially I believe he was
10 responsible for the health care efforts. I
11 believe he was Deputy Chief of Staff at that
12 time and then continued to be Deputy Chief of
13 Staff until he left the White House.
14 Q Did he ever work under you as Chief
15 of Staff?
16 A He did.
17 Q As Deputy Chief of Staff?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q You imparted to Mr. Ickes, as you
20 did everyone else, your understanding that
21 you're not supposed to just take documents
22 off the premises of the White House, correct?
30
1 A No, I didn't impart that. Those
2 were part of the procedures and guidelines
3 that the White House Counsel's Office and
4 others directly involved in those
5 responsibilities would have imparted to any
6 employee of the White House. I personally
7 did not the do that, if that's your question.
8 Q But it was done?
9 A I believe it was. I have no
10 personal knowledge it was. I relied on those
11 responsible to do their job professionally
12 and I think that's how you have to run this
13 type of organization. I have no reason to
14 believe they did not.
15 Q Forgive me if I repeat myself here
16 sometimes, but when was it that Ickes left?
17 A Mr. Klayman, sitting here today I'm
18 not sure of the exact date. He left sometime
19 after the President's re-election and I don't
20 recall the exact date.
21 Q Was it in 1997?
22 A I believe that's right.
31
1 Q Correct.
2 A I just don't recall the exact date.
3 Q Were you aware of the day that he
4 left?
5 A I think I just said I was not.
6 Q You are aware, however, that he
7 took somewhere between 30 and 50 boxes of
8 documents off the premises when he left?
9 A I have no idea what Mr. Ickes took
10 or didn't take.
11 Q Have you read that since in the
12 newspaper or heard it anywhere else?
13 A Mr. Klayman, I don't believe I
14 have.
15 Q Do you know of any efforts by
16 Harold Ickes to get clearance inside the
17 White House before he carted off 30 to 50
18 boxes of documents?
19 A I have no information about that
20 subject.
21 Q These documents which you took with
22 you --
32
1 A I'm sorry. The documents I took?
2 Q Yeah, when you left.
3 A Okay.
4 Q When you left. Was there a formal
5 piece of paper or something in writing from
6 the White House that authorized your being
7 able to take them?
8 A I signed several forms or some
9 types of documents, Mr. Klayman. I'm not
10 sure sitting here today which ones
11 specifically related to my documents, if any
12 did. But I -- I recall signing several
13 forms.
14 Q Where were those documents taken
15 when you took them off the premises?
16 A I took them here to a transition
17 office in Washington before I return home to
18 after Labor Day, home to Arkansas after Labor
19 Day.
20 Q Where is that transition office?
21 A It's at 1201 Connecticut.
22 Q Is there a suite at 1201
33
1 Connecticut?
2 A They are part -- office complex
3 there.
4 Q But what is the suite number?
5 MR. SPAEDER: What floor number, if
6 you know.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah.
8 THE WITNESS: Sixth floor. Do we
9 need to provide that?
10 Mr. Klayman, may I ask you to pause
11 here for a moment?
12 (Witness conferred with counsel)
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Is there an enterprise that's
15 located at that address?
16 A Yes, it's the Zuckerman, Spaeder
17 law firm.
18 Q So you have a suite inside
19 Zuckerman, Spaeder?
20 A I have an office there.
21 Q Where are the documents kept at
22 Zuckerman, Spaeder?
34
1 A They are in that office complex,
2 where my administrative assistant sits.
3 Q Who is your administrative
4 assistant?
5 A Diane Farrell.
6 Q Diane?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Did she work with you at the White
9 House?
10 A She did not.
11 Q Who were your top administrative
12 assistants at the White House?
13 A Patty McHugh was my administrative
14 assistant.
15 Q If you could spell these names for
16 the court reporter, assuming you can.
17 A M-c-h-u-g-h, capital H, and I think
18 it's Patty, and I should know --
19 Q Proving that republicans are not
20 the only ones that have problems spelling
21 names?
22 A I think I can conclusively prove
35
1 that, as Patty McHugh knows very well having
2 caught a number of my misspellings over the
3 years. She was my primary administrative
4 assistant, Mr. Klayman.
5 Q Was there anyone else during the
6 time you were at the White House?
7 A Yes, there was.
8 Q Who?
9 A Nelson Cunningham has worked with
10 me in recent years and prior to that Bill
11 Burton and Paul Toback.
12 Q The last person? I'm sorry.
13 A Toback, T-o-b-a-c-k.
14 Q Are these people still with the
15 White House?
16 A Ms. McHugh is.
17 Q Where are the others, Nelson and
18 Bill and there was one other?
19 A Paul Toback.
20 Q Paul Toback.
21 A Mr. Toback returned to Chicago, is
22 in the private sector there.
36
1 Q Who is he working for now?
2 A He is working with Bally
3 International, the fitness -- fitness center
4 organization.
5 Q Bill?
6 A Mr. Burton returned to Jones, Day
7 law firm in Austin -- in Dallas, Texas.
8 Q Nelson Cunningham?
9 A Mr. Cunningham is still working
10 with me at the present time at Zuckerman,
11 Spaeder.
12 Q What are his duties and
13 responsibilities there?
14 A He's helping me with the transition
15 as I transition back to private life.
16 Q Now, I take it among the documents
17 that you took from the White House were
18 documents related to the Travelgate
19 controversy?
20 A In the various matters of legal
21 proceedings I believe that was certainly one
22 of them and I think there are documents
37
1 related to that, yes.
2 Q Documents related to the Filegate
3 controversy?
4 A To the extent I had any documents
5 regarding that particular matter.
6 Q Were there documents related to any
7 other of the Clinton controversies which you
8 took?
9 A The documents relate to all of the
10 legal proceedings that I have asked -- have
11 been asked to be a witness in. So there are
12 number of times where I have been asked to be
13 a witness and I have various documents
14 relating to that legal proceeding where I
15 have been asked to appear.
16 Q Please tell us what proceedings you
17 have been asked to be a witness and which
18 proceedings you actually testified in?
19 A Mr. Klayman, let me think for just
20 a moment. I have been asked to appear before
21 congressional committees and have given a
22 number of depositions and interviews on a
38
1 number of matters.
2 Q To the best of your recollection
3 tell us when you appeared, generally, what
4 was the subject matter of your appearance and
5 what committee you appeared in front of.
6 A Without some jogging of my memory
7 or reflecting my records I'm not certain that
8 today I can give you the date, but --
9 Q As best you can.
10 A Let's me do the best I can. I
11 appeared before Chairman Riegle's committee
12 and then before Chairman D'Amato committee.
13 I believe those were regarding certain
14 finance inquiries, but I would -- again, have
15 to really refresh my memory -- they have been
16 a number of years ago -- on that matter.
17 I appeared before the House
18 committee in an earlier point in time.
19 Q Which committee was that,
20 Government Reform and Oversight?
21 A I believe that's correct.
22 Q What controversies were involved,
39
1 if any?
2 A Mr. Klayman, without reviewing my
3 records and really reflecting on these
4 matters, I can't sit here today and give you
5 each of these.
6 Q Well, let's see if we can do it
7 just generally.
8 A I don't want to give you --
9 Q What appearances did you make, if
10 any, concerning the Travelgate controversy
11 and which committees?
12 A I think I've had depositions on the
13 Travelgate matter, travel matter. I don't
14 recall the congressional hearings about
15 those, but I could be mistaken.
16 Q What committees, if any, did you
17 appear in front of concerning the Filegate
18 matter?
19 A I don't believe I appeared before
20 any committees regarding that matter.
21 Q The issues involving Travelgate,
22 however, did, in part, concern obtaining FBI
40
1 files, did they not?
2 A I don't recall that linkage in that
3 manner, not the travel matter as I was
4 involved in. They involved no files that I
5 was involved in.
6 Q Have you ever been called to appear
7 before a Grand Jury?
8 A I have.
9 Q When was that?
10 A Mr. Klayman, may I confer with my
11 attorney?
12 Q Certainly.
13 A Thank you.
14 (Witness conferred with counsel)
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I want to
16 be sure I handle this matter properly. I
17 have appeared before a number of grand juries
18 and it was -- it's my understanding, that's
19 the reason I conferred with my attorney, that
20 I should not discuss the subject matter
21 regarding those appearances.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
41
1 Q No, I'm just asking for the
2 appearances, not the subject matter.
3 A I have appeared before grand
4 juries.
5 Q Have you appeared before a Grand
6 Jury that was working under the authority of
7 an independent counsel investigation?
8 A Yes, I have.
9 Q Involving Ken Starr?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you appear in front of a Grand
12 Jury with regard to any matter concerning
13 Travelgate or Filegate?
14 A Yes.
15 Q When was that?
16 A I don't have the exact date or know
17 the --
18 Q Roughly speaking?
19 A Mr. Klayman, I don't -- don't
20 recall the exact date or the rough date.
21 Q Do you remember the year?
22 A I think it's been over a year ago.
42
1 I just simply don't recall the time period.
2 Q Were you subpoenaed to appear
3 before the Grand Jury?
4 A In most cases, if not all, I
5 voluntarily agreed to appear. I think there
6 were some cases where there may have been a
7 subpoena issued any way and certainly I
8 complied with the subpoena, but in most cases
9 I think I volunteered to cooperate with
10 whatever review it was.
11 Q These were Starr grand juries?
12 A I think you've asked me about
13 several grand juries.
14 Q I'm just trying to focus on this
15 question here with regard to Filegate and
16 Travelgate.
17 A With regard to Filegate or
18 Travelgate?
19 Q Yeah, both.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
21 Compound.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
43
1 Q You can respond. Let's take it
2 with regard to Travelgate.
3 A Okay.
4 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, let me
5 interpose the following objection: I think
6 you're entitled to know, it's fair game,
7 whether he's testified before a Grand Jury.
8 I think to the extent that you start
9 exploring the identity of the convening
10 prosecutor, be it independent counsel or the
11 Department of Justice, you are, effectively,
12 seeking information about the subject matter
13 of the Grand Jury's inquiry, which we believe
14 is privileged, and we do intend to instruct
15 the witness not to answer pursuant to
16 Rule 6(e). So I hope you will be cautious
17 and move along.
18 He's happy to tell you about the
19 non-Grand Jury appearances as he remembers
20 them, but we are going to instruct him not to
21 discuss matters occurring before the Grand
22 Jury or information that would reveal the
44
1 identity of subject matters before which a
2 Grand Jury received evidence.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: You're instructing
4 him not to answer on that?
5 MR. SPAEDER: Well, I'd like to
6 hear the pending question, if the court
7 reporter can read it back.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm trying to
9 get some basic information.
10 MR. SPAEDER: Sure. I mean we
11 don't want to interfere with that, but I
12 think to the extent you identify the
13 investigating officials or authorities, it's
14 possibly a back door way of acquiring
15 information about the content of the
16 investigation. May I have the pending
17 question?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I can rephrase it. I
19 think it will be easier.
20 MR. SPAEDER: All right.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Did you appear before a Grand Jury
45
1 concerning Travelgate? Leave it at that.
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Did you appear before a Grand Jury
4 concerning Filegate?
5 A No, I do not believe I have.
6 Q Have you ever produced documents to
7 the Grand Jury concerning Filegate?
8 A I have been responsive to any
9 requests to produce documents to the White
10 House counsel regarding a number of these
11 matters and I believe that would include
12 Filegate. Whether it was subject to Grand
13 Jury or a congressional oversight or a
14 deposition, Mr. Klayman, I don't think I made
15 that fine a distinction.
16 Q But you, yourself, never received a
17 subpoena from any Grand Jury to produce
18 documents in the controversy known as
19 Filegate?
20 A No, I don't think I -- that is not
21 my testimony.
22 Q Well, I'm asking you that. You
46
1 never received personally a subpoena to
2 provide documents concerning Filegate?
3 A We have had a number of document
4 requests over the past several years about
5 various matters. As a layperson, I'm not a
6 lawyer, if you -- if you know, I don't think
7 I distinguished between a document request, a
8 subpoena for document request or what type of
9 congressional hearing or Grand Jury,
10 whatever. But as I have received document
11 requests, regardless of the exact form,
12 including Filegate, I have to the very best
13 of my ability tried to respond to that fully
14 to White House counsel.
15 Q What I'm trying to establish is
16 that the document request that you responded
17 to where you provided documents to White
18 House counsel, was not a document request
19 which went to you Mack McLarty, it went to
20 the White House, correct?
21 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure I can
22 make that distinction this morning, I'm
47
1 sorry, because I think we received requests
2 both ways. I believe it went to the White
3 House, but I'm not confident of that. I
4 responded either way.
5 Q In any event, you've never provided
6 testimony concerning Filegate before today,
7 correct?
8 A I believe I have been asked about
9 this in one of the depositions that I gave
10 earlier. I think earlier you had asked me
11 about Grand Jury testimony.
12 Q You responded with regard to
13 Filegate in a congressional deposition?
14 A I believe that is correct, yes.
15 Q But you never answered questions
16 concerning Filegate before a Grand Jury, to
17 the best of your knowledge?
18 A To the best of my knowledge and
19 memory, that is correct.
20 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, I just have
21 a question. I don't want to segment your
22 examination you, but he has referred to his
48
1 location at the offices of Zuckerman,
2 Spaeder. It would be helpful to me, so I
3 don't have to do a cross, if you might
4 determine whether he's practicing law at
5 Zuckerman, Spaeder or whether he is a
6 subtenant. Otherwise we'll just ask a few
7 follow-up cross questions. I just want the
8 record to be clear.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can answer that question.
11 A I am not qualified or licensed to
12 practice law and I am a subtenant of the law
13 firm.
14 Q Who is the sublessee?
15 A McLarty Companies.
16 Q Are you paying anything for that
17 subtenancy?
18 A I have asked our office manager to
19 work with Zuckerman, Spaeder's office manager
20 to work out the terms of my transition up
21 there for a couple of months.
22 Q How long have you been there?
49
1 A About two weeks or three weeks,
2 Mr. Klayman, since I left government.
3 Q Now, when you responded to the
4 subpoena that you were served on in this
5 case, did you yourself review the documents
6 that have been produced today?
7 A I have reviewed some documents,
8 yes.
9 Q Who assisted you, if anyone, in
10 gathering up documents to produce in response
11 to Judicial Watch's subpoena?
12 A My personal attorneys have assisted
13 me and instructed to take your request
14 seriously and respond to it appropriately.
15 Q Did you review each and every
16 document that was produced?
17 A No, not each and every document.
18 Q Did you review each and every
19 document that was not produced?
20 A No, I did not.
21 Q Did you review a list of privileged
22 documents?
50
1 A I'm aware of a privilege log, but
2 I've not reviewed those specific documents.
3 Q Have you ever reviewed the log
4 itself?
5 A I have reviewed the log.
6 Q When did you do that?
7 A In the last week or so.
8 Q Where did you do that?
9 A I did that in the offices of my
10 attorneys.
11 Q When you reviewed that log, did you
12 have the documents that were claimed as
13 privilege at the same time?
14 A No, I did not.
15 Q Tell me when you first learned
16 about the controversy which came to be known
17 as Travelgate.
18 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, one point of
19 clarification. I think Travelgate might be
20 defined as the underlying facts as
21 distinguished from the investigation of the
22 underlying facts. Do you want to be specific
51
1 as to time frame?
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q What do you understand -- I'm
4 sorry. Are you finished?
5 MR. SPAEDER: Yes.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q What do you understand the
8 controversy that came to be known as
9 Travelgate to be about?
10 A My understanding and recollection
11 is the controversy regarding the travel
12 matter occurred when the Travel Office
13 employees were terminated in 1993. That is
14 my understanding, Mr. Klayman, of the travel
15 matter that you're asking me about.
16 Q What do you understand the
17 controversy which came to be known as
18 Filegate to be about?
19 A It involves certain FBI files, I
20 believe, that the White House had and how
21 those files were used -- allegedly used. I
22 believe that's how I would characterize
52
1 that -- the Filegate matter, to use your
2 terminology.
3 Q When did you first become aware
4 when you were working at the White House of a
5 controversy which became known as Travelgate?
6 A I believe that controversy,
7 Mr. Klayman, as I define it and understand
8 it, occurred almost contemporaneously --
9 shortly after the termination of the Travel
10 Office employees.
11 Q When did you first become aware, if
12 at all, that the Travel Office employees,
13 some of them, were going to be terminated?
14 A When Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster
15 recommended their termination to me in 1993.
16 Q Prior to their recommending their
17 termination, "their" meaning Mr. Watkins and
18 Mr. Foster, had you ever talked about the
19 Travel Office with anyone?
20 A Yes, I had.
21 Q Who was that?
22 A Well, I had discussed it with
53
1 Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster and some other
2 colleagues in the White House. I discussed
3 it with Mrs. Clinton and I think when I say
4 other people in the White House, that covers
5 whoever else I might have discussed this
6 particular decision or matter about.
7 Q Who were those other colleagues?
8 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure sitting
9 here today I can recall all of the other
10 colleagues.
11 Q As best you can.
12 A I discussed it with -- the matter
13 came up with other people in the White House.
14 I believe Mr. Gearan would be part of that
15 group.
16 Q Mark Gearan?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Communications director at the
19 time?
20 A I think Mr. Gearan -- I can't
21 recall, Mr. Klayman, he may have still been
22 Deputy Chief of Staff at that time. He was
54
1 later communications director, you're
2 correct. I discussed it, I believe, with
3 Mr. Stephanopoulos, and I'm just not sure
4 whom else sitting here today.
5 Q Who first brought the issue to your
6 attention, the removal of certain employees
7 in the Travel Office?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to
9 interpose a relevancy objection. I don't see
10 how this ties into anything that is defined
11 as relevant.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You can respond.
14 A I believe Mr. Watkins first brought
15 the matter to my attention, not necessarily
16 the termination of the employees, but that
17 there could possibly be certain improprieties
18 in the Travel Office. I believe Mr. Watkins
19 was the first person who brought this to my
20 attention.
21 Q Prior to Mr. Watkins, did anyone
22 bring to your attention a desire to change
55
1 personnel in the Travel Office?
2 A No, they did not.
3 Q Prior to having the matter brought
4 to your attention did you discuss the Travel
5 Office in any way with Mrs. Clinton?
6 A I did.
7 Q When was that?
8 A It was some time before this
9 decision was made, a couple of weeks I think.
10 Q Before Watkins talked to you?
11 A No, before the decision was made
12 regarding the termination of the Travel
13 Office.
14 Q But my question was, who first
15 mentioned the words "Travel Office" to you?
16 Was it Watkins or Mrs. Clinton?
17 A No, it was Mr. Watkins as I
18 remember it, Mr. Klayman. I thought that's
19 what my testimony said.
20 Q When did that occur, roughly
21 speaking?
22 A I don't recall the specific time.
56
1 I think it was May of 1993.
2 Q Did Mr. Watkins raise the issue or
3 did you raise it?
4 A No, he raised it with me, as I
5 remember.
6 Q Did he do so in a meeting or by
7 telephone or some other method of
8 communication?
9 A I believe by telephone.
10 Q Was anyone present listening to the
11 conversation?
12 A No.
13 Q What did Mr. Watkins tell you?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object
15 again on relevancy grounds. I will have a
16 standing objection to all questions about the
17 Travel Office that don't relate to government
18 files or the FBI files.
19 MS. ZIEGLER: I join in that
20 objection.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, as you know, I
22 don't need to go over it. I think everybody
57
1 knows it that knows anything about all these
2 controversies, that Filegate arose from
3 Travelgate. But let's continue. You can
4 have your standing objection. It can go
5 right through the end of the deposition.
6 That's okay.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Go ahead.
9 A Would you repeat the question?
10 Q The question was, what did
11 Mr. Watkins raise with you?
12 A He raised that there might be
13 certain improprieties,
14 less-than-business-like practices in the
15 Travel Office and he felt we should look into
16 them. That's as I -- the best I remember.
17 That's not verbatim.
18 Q Did he say with whether he had
19 spoken with anyone else about these alleged
20 improprieties?
21 A I believe he said Mrs. Clinton had
22 mentioned these improprieties to him.
58
1 Q Did he say when Mrs. Clinton had
2 mentioned the improprieties to him?
3 A No, I don't recall that he did.
4 Q Did he say how Mrs. Clinton had
5 arrived at mentioning the improprieties to
6 him?
7 A I don't recall that he said, that
8 Mr. Klayman, or made that point in the
9 conversation he had with me.
10 Q Did you ask him how does
11 Mrs. Clinton know there are improprieties in
12 the Travel Office?
13 A I don't recall the specifics of the
14 conversation that well sitting here today. I
15 do recall Mr. Watkins calling me.
16 Q That would have been a logical
17 question to ask based on your experience,
18 wouldn't it?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the
21 record.
22 (Interruption)
59
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q That would have been a logical
3 question, would it not?
4 A Mr. Klayman, I wouldn't disagree
5 that it would have been a logical question.
6 I just don't remember the conversation in
7 this level of detail. That's been several
8 years ago and I just simply don't remember
9 it.
10 Q Well, the Travel Office issue was a
11 very important issue, was it not?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
13 THE WITNESS: It was an issue that
14 had some public profile, yes.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Right. It ultimately resulted in
17 an independent counsel investigation,
18 correct?
19 A It had a thorough review, yes.
20 Q Now, in the course of your
21 considerable experience in business and at
22 the White House, the ability to recollect key
60
1 events is crucial, is it not?
2 A To the best of one's ability.
3 Q This obviously was something which
4 later gave rise to additional controversy by
5 the name of Filegate, correct?
6 A You have made that linkage. I'm
7 just simply not familiar with the facts to
8 conclude that or agree with you.
9 Q You are aware that the discovery of
10 the obtaining of FBI files from the FBI by
11 the White House occurred in the context of
12 the Travelgate controversy? You are aware of
13 that?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
15 Asked and answered.
16 THE WITNESS: In what way,
17 Mr. Klayman?
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You are aware that the Clinger
20 committee, the Government Reform and
21 Oversight Committee, secured documentation
22 from the White House that showed that FBI
61
1 files had been obtained by the White House
2 from the FBI? You are aware of that,
3 correct?
4 A I think I have -- I'm, generally,
5 aware of it. I think I have read about it.
6 I just simply don't know the facts here. I'm
7 just not aware of that information.
8 Q Well, you were White House Chief of
9 Staff at the time, were you not?
10 A Of the --
11 Q At the time that these files were
12 obtained by the White House, the FBI files?
13 A I don't know when the FBI files
14 were obtained, Mr. Klayman. I don't know
15 when they were obtained, so I don't know
16 whether I was still Chief of Staff or not.
17 Q You were an advisor to the
18 President at the time that the discovery was
19 made that these White House files were
20 obtained, correct?
21 A I believe that's the proper period.
22 Q FBI files were obtained, correct?
62
1 Now, that was obviously something
2 that was discussed widely at the time both in
3 the White House and in the media, correct?
4 A You're talking about the FBI files?
5 Q Yes.
6 A It was a matter of public
7 controversy.
8 Q Now, when you talked to
9 Mr. Watkins, you asked him what the
10 improprieties were, did you not?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
12 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I have
13 given you my best recollection that
14 Mr. Watkins informed me that he thought there
15 might be possible improprieties,
16 less-than-business-like practices, those were
17 my words, in the Travel Office and that he
18 was going to look into it. That is all I
19 remember about the conversation with
20 Mr. Watkins several years ago.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q He told you that he had learned of
63
1 those improprieties by talking to
2 Mrs. Clinton?
3 A I believe he mentioned that to me.
4 That's what I said in my earlier testimony.
5 Q Did he mention names of Travel
6 Office employees who had allegedly engaged in
7 improprieties?
8 A I don't recall that he did.
9 Q When he said he was going to look
10 into it, you authorized him to look into it?
11 A I concurred that that was the
12 proper next step.
13 Q Mr. Watkins reported to you,
14 correct?
15 A He did.
16 Q What then did you tell him to do to
17 look into it?
18 A I don't remember that I told him to
19 do any more than that. I think he said he
20 was going to look into that. That's as I
21 recall it, Mr. Klayman.
22 Q Was anything else discussed during
64
1 that conversation with Mr. Watkins?
2 A I don't remember that it was.
3 Q How long was that conversation?
4 A Oh, Mr. Klayman, sitting here today
5 I can't give you the exact length. It was
6 less than 10 minutes.
7 Q Well, what you've recounted to me
8 only took about two minutes. What happened
9 in the other eight?
10 A Well, I didn't say it lasted 10
11 minutes. I said it was less than 10 minutes.
12 I have told you about the conversation to the
13 extent I remember it. I don't know whether
14 it lasted 5 minutes or 4 minutes or 7
15 minutes. It was not a long conversation.
16 Q Did there come a point in time
17 after that conversation when you communicated
18 with someone else about the Travel Office?
19 A Yes, there did.
20 Q When did that occur?
21 A At some point after that
22 conversation Mrs. Clinton stopped by my
65
1 office and told me that she had raised these
2 matters with Mr. Watkins. I told her I had
3 already learned that from Mr. Watkins and, as
4 I remember it, she said is fine. I just want
5 you to be aware of it. That was about the
6 extent of the exchange.
7 Q What did she tell you these matters
8 were?
9 A She did not go into any detail with
10 me, Mr. Klayman, at that conversation, as I
11 recall it, because once I told her
12 Mr. Watkins had already called me, she was
13 just simply informing me that she had told
14 Mr. Watkins about certain concerns she had
15 about the Travel Office or certain matters
16 that she had heard about
17 less-than-business-like practices. That's
18 how I remember the conversation.
19 Q Surely you asked her what those
20 concerns were during that conversation?
21 A Mr. Klayman, I don't believe I did.
22 It was a brief conversation and, as I
66
1 remember it, we discussed a couple of other
2 matters that did not relate to the Travel
3 Office and, as I remember it, and I believe I
4 remember it correctly, she simply wanted me
5 to be aware that she had mentioned this to
6 Mr. Watkins. When I told her he had already
7 called me, it really had served the purpose
8 of that exchange.
9 Q Mrs. Clinton made recommendations
10 on how this matter could be looked into?
11 A She did not.
12 Q During the conversation with
13 Mr. Watkins did the name Thomason ever come
14 up?
15 A It's possible it did. I learned at
16 some point in time that Mr. Thomason had
17 expressed concerns about this. I don't
18 remember Mr. Watkins mentioning that to me.
19 It's possible he did.
20 Q Now, at the time that you had the
21 conversation with Mr. Watkins you knew that
22 Mr. Thomason, among his various enterprises,
67
1 was involved in the travel business?
2 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure I knew
3 that at that time. I may have. I don't know
4 whether I knew at that time or not.
5 Q By the time you talked to
6 Mrs. Clinton you knew that though, correct?
7 A No, I don't think so, no, I
8 don't -- I -- whatever knowledge -- knowledge
9 base I had in talking to Mr. Watkins and
10 Mrs. Clinton it would have been the same
11 knowledge base because they were within a day
12 of each other.
13 Q Mrs. Clinton raised the name
14 Thomason during her conversation?
15 A I don't recall whether Mrs. Clinton
16 mentioned Mr. Thomason or not, Mr. Klayman,
17 in our exchange about the Travel Office
18 matter. She may have, but I don't believe
19 she did.
20 Q Watkins or Mrs. Clinton? Did
21 either of them tell you that Mr. Thomason
22 wanted to take over the travel business at
68
1 that time?
2 A No, they did not. I'm not sure
3 either, Mr. Klayman, raised Mr. Thomason's
4 name in the initial discussions about the
5 Travel Office.
6 Q Assuming that you knew that
7 Thomason wanted the travel business and that
8 they were friends of the Clintons?
9 A They are friends of the Clintons,
10 that's correct.
11 Q Based on your duties and
12 responsibilities as White House Chief of
13 Staff, would that have caused you concern?
14 MR. SPAEDER: Objection.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q That people's names were being
17 raised in that context?
18 MR. SPAEDER: I don't think the
19 witness has said he learned or knew at that
20 time that Mr. Thomason wanted the Travel
21 Office business. I think if you parse it out
22 by time, counsel, you can probably get where
69
1 you want to go.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm asking a
3 hypothetical and I'm trying to get to the way
4 Mr. McLarty operated in the White House.
5 MS. ZIEGLER: I object on the
6 grounds it's a hypothetical question and I
7 also on object to the relevance of this line
8 of inquiry.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. You can
10 put your objection on the record.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q What I'm saying is based on your
13 duties and responsibilities of White House
14 Chief of Staff, if you knew that someone was
15 recommending an inquiry into improprieties of
16 the Travel Office and you knew that one of
17 the people involved was a friend of the
18 President and First Lady, who was in the same
19 business as the Travel Office, would that
20 have caused you concern at that time?
21 A I would have taken it into
22 consideration.
70
1 Mr. Klayman you started asking me a
2 factual question, which I tried to respond
3 to, and I think now we have moved to a
4 hypothetical question.
5 Q Right, correct.
6 A So I think the two are merging
7 here.
8 Q I'm trying to get how you handled
9 things, ethically speaking, in the White
10 House when you were Chief of Staff. Would
11 that have caused you concern?
12 A I would have taken that into
13 consideration.
14 Q What do you mean by consideration?
15 A Well, I would have considered that
16 as part of the review or analysis that was
17 taking place.
18 Q Would have considered it in the
19 context of a possible conflict of interest?
20 A I don't know about a conflict of
21 interest. I think I would have taken that
22 into account about whether or not there was
71
1 a reason for such concerns to be expressed.
2 Q But you can't recollect either
3 Mr. Watkins or Mrs. Clinton advising you that
4 Mr. Thomason was desirous of the Travel
5 Office business during those first two
6 conversations?
7 A I don't think they did at all and I
8 don't think I was ever under the impression
9 that Mr. Thomason want to take over the
10 Travel Office.
11 Q How long did the meeting with
12 Mrs. Clinton last?
13 A Again, less than 10 minutes.
14 Probably closer to 5.
15 Q Was anyone else present during that
16 meeting?
17 A They were not.
18 Q Where did it take place?
19 A In my office in the west wing.
20 Q Was the door open or closed?
21 A Mr. Klayman, I don't recall whether
22 it was open or closed.
72
1 Q Isn't it possible that at the time
2 you had this discussion with Mrs. Clinton you
3 may have known about Thomason's involvement
4 in the travel business?
5 A I --
6 MS. ZIEGLER: Objection. It's a
7 hypothetical question.
8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
12 objection.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q You can respond.
15 A It's possible that I knew about it.
16 I don't believe that I did, but it's
17 possible.
18 Q During the conversation with
19 Mrs. Clinton was any course of action
20 discussed or agreed upon?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
22 THE WITNESS: I think the exchange
73
1 suggested that I was going to take this
2 matter seriously and look into it. That's as
3 I remember it. I don't know that that
4 quite comports with a discussion of a course
5 of action and so forth, but I think that was
6 understood.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q What did you tell Mrs. Clinton you
9 were going to do?
10 A I think the exchange -- I was aware
11 of the matter and that really was the essence
12 of her visit with me, as I understood it, and
13 I don't remember whether I said we're going
14 to review this or not. It would seem to me
15 that you would say something along those
16 lines.
17 Q What happened immediately after
18 that meeting with Mrs. Clinton, if anything?
19 A At some point either later that day
20 or the next day I met with Mr. Watkins and
21 Mr. Foster about this matter and asked them
22 to look into this matter to see if there were
74
1 reasons for these concerns. After all, if
2 there were less-than-business-like practices,
3 we certainly wanted to take that seriously
4 and know that.
5 Q Why did you meet with Ms. Foster in
6 addition to Mr. Watkins?
7 A The matters were of the type that
8 might have involved improprieties, perhaps
9 illegalities, and I thought a White House
10 counsel -- a lawyer should be involved, as
11 well as management and administration where
12 the Travel Office reported.
13 Q Where did that meeting take place?
14 A Took place in my office.
15 Q Who spoke first?
16 A I don't recall who spoke first.
17 Q What did you say to Mr. Foster and
18 Mr. Watkins?
19 A Mr. Klayman, I don't recall the
20 exact conversation. I think the essence of
21 it was -- is to review the Travel Office and
22 see if there are less-than-business-like
75
1 practices, make a thorough review of this
2 operation, something of that nature. I don't
3 recall the exact conversation.
4 Q What did you ask Mr. Watkins to do
5 in that regard?
6 A What I just said, to review the
7 operations.
8 Q Was there a division of authority
9 between Watkins and Foster?
10 A No, I asked them to do it together.
11 Now, how they divided it would be up to them.
12 Q You referred to illegalities. What
13 did you mean by illegalities?
14 A If there were any misappropriation
15 of funds, less than competitive bidding, that
16 type of thing.
17 Q Now, up to that point in time no
18 one had mentioned the words "misappropriation
19 of funds" or "less than competitive bidding,"
20 correct? Where did you get those terms?
21 A Well, the review, of course,
22 suggested that after the review was done.
76
1 Q But you just told me in the
2 discussion with Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Watkins
3 they weren't specific as to what the
4 improprieties were, correct?
5 A I think my understanding was on
6 both of those conversations I had termed them
7 less-than-business-like practices and
8 improprieties. That's how I recall the
9 conversation with Mr. Watkins and with
10 Mrs. Clinton.
11 Q What I'm asking you is where you
12 came up, then, when you discussed things with
13 Foster and Watkins, with these very specific
14 allegations, where did that come from?
15 A I think -- Mr. Klayman, again, I
16 don't remember the specific conversation or
17 words, but I did ask them to review the
18 Travel Office for any improprieties or
19 less-than-business-like practices.
20 Q Did they suggest to you during that
21 meeting how they were going to do that?
22 A I don't recall at that first
77
1 meeting whether they did or not, Mr. Klayman.
2 Q What, if anything, else was
3 discussed at the first meeting in terms of
4 specifics, how they were going to proceed?
5 A I don't recall any specifics were
6 discussed. There may have been, but I don't
7 remember it sitting here today.
8 Q How long was the meeting?
9 A Oh, probably 15 or 20 minutes would
10 be my best guess.
11 Q Did either of these two individuals
12 discuss concerns about undertaking this
13 review?
14 A No, I think both felt we should
15 review it based on the concerns that had been
16 expressed.
17 Q Did the name Harry Thomason come up
18 during the conversation?
19 A It may have in this meeting,
20 Mr. Klayman. I don't remember it coming up,
21 but it certainly may have.
22 Q What was discussed?
78
1 A I have given you my testimony I
2 don't remember.
3 Q Did either Mr. Foster or
4 Mr. Watkins say that Mr. Thomason had
5 suggested there was a misappropriation of
6 funds or less than competitive bidding?
7 A Mr. Klayman, I don't remember their
8 saying that. I just simply don't recall that
9 level of detail about this meeting which took
10 place several years ago.
11 Q Up to this point in time were you
12 aware of whether or not Mr. Thomason ever had
13 access to records in the White House Travel
14 Office?
15 A I was not aware he had any access
16 to the Travel Office.
17 Q To the best of your knowledge, did
18 he ever have a security pass for the White
19 House?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q Did there come a point in time
22 after this meeting when you had further
79
1 conversations about this travel controversy?
2 A There did.
3 Q When did that occur?
4 A It was -- we had a number of
5 follow-up conversations and meetings over the
6 next several days.
7 Q When was the next such conversation
8 or communication of any kind?
9 A I don't remember the exact time
10 frame, whether it was a day later or three
11 days later.
12 Q Well, I'm not asking you to be
13 precise, but who did you talk to or
14 communicate with?
15 A I contacted or communicated with
16 Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster.
17 Q During this period did you have any
18 further contact with Mrs. Clinton?
19 A I saw Mrs. Clinton about a week
20 later, I think, several days later, and
21 mentioned this matter to her.
22 Q Did the meeting with Mrs. Clinton
80
1 occur before or after you had subsequent
2 contact with Foster and Watkins?
3 A No, I had had considerable contact
4 with Watkins and Foster when I saw
5 Mrs. Clinton.
6 Q You had more than that just that
7 first meeting when the two were present?
8 A That's what I testified earlier,
9 yes.
10 Q Tell us about the other contact you
11 had and what was discussed or communicated.
12 A Mr. Klayman, as I remember it, over
13 the next several days Mr. Watkins, Mr. Foster
14 did conduct a review of the Travel Office.
15 At some point in time they recommended, and I
16 concurred, that they should have Peat,
17 Marwick & Mitchell assist them, who were
18 already doing some analysis in the White
19 House. They continued with their review over
20 the next several days. They concluded that
21 in their mind there was
22 less-than-business-like practices, some
81
1 improprieties, possible illegalities, and
2 that we should make a change in the Travel
3 Office.
4 Q During this period did the name
5 Susan Thomases ever come up, the point that
6 you first became aware of this Travel Office
7 issue up to time of the present testimony?
8 The name of Susan Thomases ever arise?
9 A I know Susan Thomases. I don't
10 remember Susan Thomases' name coming up in
11 this discussion, Mr. Klayman.
12 Q How is it that Mr. Foster and
13 Mr. Watkins told you they were able to
14 determine that there were irregularities, if
15 not illegalities? How did that go about
16 doing this?
17 A Through this Peat, Marwick,
18 Mitchell. I think it's KPM&G, the new firm,
19 through their thorough review of this.
20 They relied on that analysis and concurred
21 with it.
22 Q How long did that analysis take?
82
1 A About a week.
2 Q Did they themselves do any analysis
3 before you recommended that Peat, Marwick &
4 Mitchell be brought in?
5 A They had certainly looked into the
6 matter. I don't know how much analysis they
7 had done.
8 Q How did they tell you they had
9 looked into the matter?
10 A I didn't get into that level of
11 detail. I asked them to review the matter,
12 which I believe they did, and then they
13 suggested we have a formal review by Peat,
14 Marwick & Mitchell, which I concurred with.
15 Q Before you went ahead and ordered a
16 formal review by Peat, Marwick & Mitchell,
17 you must have asked for proof that there were
18 irregularities and/or illegalities in the
19 Travel Office, correct?
20 A No, I -- no, that's not right. No,
21 I did not.
22 Q You must have asked them
83
1 specifically what were the irregularities or
2 illegalities? You must have asked that?
3 A Mr. Klayman, that is a level of
4 detail I don't remember. I did rely on our
5 ongoing discussions and they felt it was
6 appropriate to proceed with a more thorough
7 review, which I concurred with.
8 Q To the best of your knowledge, at
9 the time you had these discussions with
10 Mr. Watkins did you know whether or not he
11 had any accounting background?
12 A I knew Mr. Watkins to be a
13 successful business person in the private
14 sector and a capable manager. I don't know
15 about a specific accounting background.
16 Q Do you know of any specific
17 accounting background for Mr. Foster?
18 A Mr. Foster, of course, I knew was a
19 lawyer. No specific accounting background.
20 Q Was it your practice in the White
21 House to order up services based upon mere
22 statements of people without having any
84
1 proof?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
3 Argumentative.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You can respond.
6 A No. I think, Mr. Klayman, you have
7 used the term "proof" and as I remember these
8 discussions and exchanges, that after
9 Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster initially reviewed
10 this matter, they felt there was a basis for
11 a more thorough review and, as I recall it,
12 felt that there were less-than-business-like
13 practices and perhaps improprieties in their
14 view, but that a deeper audit, if you will,
15 or review should be undertaken to indeed
16 confirm that.
17 Q Have you ever heard of a person by
18 the name of Jeff Eller, E-l-l-e-r?
19 A I have.
20 Q Who was Jeff Eller at the time in
21 terms of his position?
22 A Mr. Eller worked in the Department
85
1 of Communications during this period.
2 Q What involvement, if any, did he
3 have during this period in the Travel Office
4 matter?
5 A He recommended to me at some point
6 that the Travel Office employees be
7 terminated and that be communicated publicly.
8 Q In fact, Mr. Eller recommended that
9 to you before you ordered the Peat, Marwick &
10 Mitchell review, correct?
11 A I don't believe that's correct,
12 Mr. Klayman. I would have to review any
13 notes that I made, if any. But as I remember
14 it, the review either was already underway or
15 was near completion when he made this
16 recommendation or maybe perhaps had been
17 completed.
18 Q Now, being in the communications
19 office, what business of it was Mr. Eller to
20 recommend the firing of the Travel Office, to
21 the best of your knowledge? Why did he get
22 involved?
86
1 A Well, I'm not sure why he got
2 involved. I mean that -- I don't know why he
3 had an interest in this.
4 Q Surely you must have asked him?
5 A I don't know that I did,
6 Mr. Klayman.
7 Q Didn't you find it somewhat bizarre
8 that some guy from the communications office
9 was recommended that the Travel Office be
10 fired?
11 A As I remember it, of course, we
12 were going to have some type of communication
13 about this, so it didn't strike me as
14 unusual. Somebody from the communications
15 office would have an interest in this,
16 particularly how it was going to be
17 communicated.
18 Q Had you ever had a situation in the
19 White House up to that point in time where
20 someone in an unrelated office had
21 recommended the firing of one of his or her
22 fellow employee?
87
1 A I don't know about a termination.
2 I had certainly had other people from various
3 parts of White House express opinions about
4 areas that they were not directly responsible
5 for.
6 Q Well, I'm asking about firings.
7 A I don't recall any specific
8 examples about terminations or firings.
9 Q That's the first time that had ever
10 happened?
11 A I don't remember of any others,
12 Mr. Klayman. I can't say that with certainty
13 sitting here today.
14 Q You don't remember of any others
15 after that point in time during your period
16 in the White House where someone came to you
17 and said I want that person fired?
18 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure that's
19 correct.
20 Q Can you give me one instance?
21 A I would have to think about it, but
22 I'm just not sure that's quite correct.
88
1 Q Mr. Eller, as part of his duties
2 and responsibilities, he worked with
3 Mrs. Clinton, didn't he?
4 A He knew Mrs. Clinton. He worked
5 for Mr. Stephanopoulos in the communications
6 area.
7 Q Now, we have your meeting with
8 Foster and Watkins ordering up a Peat,
9 Marwick & Mitchell review.
10 Did you talk to anybody else at the
11 White House up to that point in time? Did
12 you talk to Stephanopoulos about this or
13 anyone else?
14 A I think I've already --
15 Q Mike Gearan?
16 A I think I've already testified that
17 there were other people in the White House I
18 believe I communicated with about this matter
19 during the course of the several days we're
20 discussing here. I believe I gave you
21 Mr. Gearan being one and they're -- I believe
22 there were others, Mr. Klayman. I don't
89
1 remember precisely who they were. Perhaps I
2 talked about it with Mr. Stephanopoulos. I
3 valued his opinion. I perhaps discussed this
4 matter with him.
5 Q What did you discuss with
6 Mr. Stephanopoulos?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
8 THE WITNESS: I can't say with
9 certainty I did discuss it with him.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Is that how Eller got involved?
12 Through Stephanopoulos?
13 A No, I don't -- I did not testify to
14 that, Mr. Klayman. I don't -- I've testified
15 I don't know how Mr. Eller get involved.
16 Q Mr. Eller worked under
17 Mr. Stephanopoulos?
18 A He did report to Mr. Stephanopoulos
19 in communications.
20 Q Now, Mr. Stephanopoulos, he had a
21 relationship with Mrs. Clinton, too, didn't
22 he?
90
1 A He certainly knew Mrs. Clinton, of
2 course, as well as the President.
3 Q At part of his duties and
4 responsibilities, communicated with
5 Mrs. Clinton?
6 A From time to time I think he did,
7 yes, as many of us did.
8 Q What did you discuss with
9 Mr. Gearan about the Travel Office matter
10 during this period of time?
11 A Mr. Klayman, I have no recollection
12 of any discussions with Mr. Gearan. You
13 asked me who I discussed this matter with and
14 I tried to be responsive to you.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a
16 five-minute break.
17 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
18 video record at 11:28 a.m.
19 (Recess)
20 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
21 record at 11:37 a.m.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
91
1 Q Did there come a point in time when
2 you received the report of Peat, Marwick &
3 Mitchell?
4 A There did.
5 Q When was that, approximately, in
6 terms of time?
7 A It was several days after -- I
8 think over a week after when the these
9 concerns or allegations were first raised.
10 Q Did anything happen during the
11 interim period, the meeting that you had with
12 Foster and Watkins where you ordered up the
13 Peat, Marwick review and subsequently your
14 receipt of that Peat, Marwick review? What
15 happened in between?
16 A Yes, Mr. Klayman, they did. I
17 thought I had commented on that or testified
18 about that earlier. I did have ongoing
19 contact with Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster.
20 They recommend this review, which I approved,
21 and at some point it was completed, submitted
22 to Mr. Watkins, Mr. Foster and discussed with
92
1 me.
2 Q During that interim period before
3 it was submitted did you have further
4 conversations with Hillary Clinton?
5 A Only the one I noted to you earlier
6 when you asked me about it.
7 Q Did you have any conversations up
8 to the point of receiving the Peat, Marwick &
9 Mitchell report with the President?
10 A Mr. Klayman, sitting here today I
11 don't recall my raising this matter with the
12 President during that period. It's possible
13 that I noted it to him and told him we were
14 looking into it, but I certainly don't
15 remember my doing that and I don't believe
16 that I did. It's possible, but I don't
17 recall doing it.
18 Q During the period leading up to the
19 receipt of the Peat, Marwick & Mitchell
20 report was this matter ever discussed with
21 anyone at the vice-president's office?
22 A I don't recall discussing this
93
1 matter with the vice-president's office
2 either during that period or after.
3 Q As part of your duties and
4 responsibilities as Chief of Staff, did you
5 or your staff keep the vice-president's
6 office informed about important matters?
7 A We certainly attempted to and I
8 think for the most part did so.
9 Q Now, after the Peat, Marwick &
10 Mitchell report was received, what, if
11 anything, happened?
12 A We reviewed the report and it
13 concluded that there were certainly
14 less-than-business-like practices, less than
15 formal accounting and bookkeeping, possible
16 improprieties, and Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster
17 recommended, after we discussed it, that we
18 make a change in the Travel Office with
19 the -- not only the head of the office, but
20 all of the employees, which I approved.
21 Q They told you that, in fact, the
22 recommendation to make the change was
94
1 Mrs. Clinton's, correct?
2 A No, that's not correct,
3 Mr. Klayman.
4 Q Did they tell you whose idea it
5 was?
6 A I certainly took it to be their
7 recommendation after a careful review to me.
8 Q Was the recommendation in the Peat,
9 Marwick & Mitchell report itself to make a
10 change?
11 A It's been some time since I've
12 reviewed that report. It certainly, I think,
13 suggested a change, if not recommended it.
14 I don't recall whether it specifically
15 recommended a change or just did a
16 straightforward analysis of the facts and
17 left the decision to management.
18 Q Have you subsequently learned of
19 any claim by anyone that, in fact, it was
20 Mrs. Clinton who wanted the Travel Office
21 fired?
22 A That has, I think, been speculated
95
1 about or reported in the press. I don't
2 recall anyone -- anyone telling me that.
3 Q But you are aware of it being
4 reported in the press?
5 A I believe I have read that at some
6 point in time.
7 Q What do you recollect about what
8 was reported in the press?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
10 Relevancy.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry,
12 Mr. Klayman. Would you repeat your question?
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q What do you recollect was reported
15 in the press?
16 A Well, there was a lot reported in
17 the press about the Travel Office matter,
18 Mr. Klayman, but -- about this matter that
19 Mrs. Clinton wanted the Travel Office
20 employees fired. That's how I remember the
21 report or -- not the report, but the
22 reporting of the matter.
96
1 Q Now, do you have any information in
2 written form to refute that, that
3 Mrs. Clinton, in fact, did not want the
4 Travel Office fired?
5 A Do I have any information of that
6 type?
7 Q Yes.
8 A I don't believe I do.
9 Q So you have no information written
10 or unwritten that refutes that allegation?
11 A Well, Mrs. Clinton certainly never
12 instructed me or told me or suggested that
13 Travel Office employees be fired.
14 Q Well, I'm asking you whether you
15 have any information other than the fact that
16 she ever talked to you about, that she wasn't
17 involved in the firing?
18 A Do I have any information of that
19 type?
20 Q Yes.
21 A No, I don't believe I do,
22 Mr. Klayman.
97
1 Q Do you know of anyone else who
2 does?
3 A No, I do not.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask the
5 following document be marked as Exhibit 3.
6 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
7 No. 3 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did you concur with the
11 recommendation of Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster
12 to fire the Travel Office?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q Before conferring in that
15 recommendation did you thoroughly review the
16 Peat, Marwick & Mitchell report?
17 A I reviewed the report, yes.
18 Q Did you review each and every page
19 of it?
20 A I reviewed the report. I relied on
21 the advice and recommendation of Mr. Watkins
22 and Mr. Foster, who had been involved in
98
1 the analysis and report. But I did read it,
2 yes, sir.
3 Q Given the two conversations that
4 you had with Mrs. Clinton, did you feel
5 pressured to fire those Travel Office
6 individuals?
7 A I felt a responsibility and a
8 pressure to review this matter carefully and
9 to make a timely decision.
10 Q You understood from Mrs. Clinton's
11 own personal involvement that she wanted some
12 action, didn't you?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
14 THE WITNESS: I understood from
15 Mrs. Clinton's knowledge of this -- of this
16 matter that she took it seriously, was
17 concerned about it and wanted the matter to
18 be taken seriously, which we did.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q That she wanted action?
21 A Action in terms of reviewing the
22 matter, yes.
99
1 Q Disposing of it?
2 A Making a decision one way or the
3 other disposing -- if that's how you mean
4 disposing.
5 Q So you understood that what --
6 A Mr. Klayman, is that how you mean
7 disposing?
8 Q Yes, yes. You understood that she
9 wanted a review of the matter and if indeed
10 there were illegalities or improprieties, to
11 dismiss the people?
12 MR. SPAEDER: I don't believe he
13 said that.
14 THE WITNESS: I did not. I
15 think -- and I don't know that she wanted a
16 review. She wanted the matter to be looked
17 into, that was my understanding, in a timely
18 way. I felt a responsibility to do that.
19 Then to make a decision and certainly if
20 there were improprieties or illegalities -- I
21 don't recall Mrs. Clinton ever saying, but
22 that I think it's implicit, in my way of
100
1 thinking, if there are improprieties or
2 illegalities, you take action, which probably
3 means dismissal.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Now, before accepting this
6 recommendation for dismissal did you seek any
7 legal advice as to whether this could be
8 done?
9 A Mr. Foster, of course, was involved
10 in this and he certainly gave me no advice to
11 the contrary.
12 Q Well, did you specifically seek
13 advice as to whether this was legal or not,
14 to dismiss these Travel Office officials?
15 A I don't recall raising with
16 Mr. Foster was this legal. I think I
17 concluded that we had the authority to do it
18 and he certainly did not suggest there were
19 any illegal barriers or issues that would
20 preclude us from making this decision if the
21 facts warranted that.
22 Q Did you ask anyone to look into how
101
1 you can fire people in the White House, how
2 procedurally that can be done?
3 A I don't think I gave specific
4 instructions or directions to Mr. Watkins or
5 Mr. Foster about that, Mr. Klayman. I,
6 frankly, relied on their handling that in the
7 proper way.
8 Q Now, neither of those two
9 individuals were experienced at White House
10 procedures and regulations, were they?
11 A They were in senior positions and I
12 think were the proper people to rely on in
13 that regard. They had not served in the
14 White House prior to the Clinton
15 administration, no, nor had I.
16 Q Now, did you accept their
17 recommendation in writing or was it done
18 orally, to fire the White House Travel Office
19 people?
20 A Initially it was done orally and
21 then Mr. Watkins wrote a memorandum with a
22 formal recommendation to me.
102
1 Q How did you accept that memorandum?
2 Was it in writing or was it done orally?
3 A No, Mr. Klayman, I think I just
4 testified initially we had a conversation
5 about this, which would be oral.
6 Q I understand. But was there
7 ultimately something written down where it
8 says, "I authorize you to fire these people"?
9 A I see. I'm sorry. I didn't
10 understand your question. I don't believe I
11 responded in a written communication. I
12 don't recall that I did. I believe I told
13 Mr. Watkins that I had received his
14 memorandum, concurred with it and he and
15 Mr. Foster were to implement the termination
16 of the employees.
17 Q How long after the Peat, Marwick &
18 Mitchell report was received and reviewed
19 were the Travel Office employees fired?
20 A I don't remember how many days it
21 was, Mr. Klayman.
22 Q Roughly speaking?
103
1 A I want to say two to four days, but
2 I'm not certain of the exact time -- time
3 frame.
4 Q During that period did you have any
5 further conversations with Mrs. Clinton?
6 A I only had the two conversations
7 with them and I don't recall when the second
8 conversation took place in that time period.
9 I don't believe the Peat, Marwick & Mitchell
10 report had been completed now that I think
11 about it, so it would have been before the
12 report was completed.
13 Q Did you have any conversations with
14 Stephanopoulos during that period?
15 A I don't --
16 MR. SPAEDER: Which period of time,
17 Counsel?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Up to the point of
19 the actual firing.
20 THE WITNESS: Up to the actual
21 firing itself?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
104
1 Q Between the period of receiving the
2 Peat, Marwick report and the firing itself.
3 A Yes, I believe I talked to
4 Mr. Stephanopoulos about it after the report
5 and the decision was made and before the
6 communication. I believe I did confer with
7 him.
8 Q What was discussed?
9 A I think how we were going to
10 announce this from a press standpoint.
11 Q What did you discuss specifically?
12 Stephanopoulos was the
13 communications director at that time?
14 A Yes, and he handled the daily press
15 briefings as well at that time, Mr. Klayman.
16 Q Right.
17 A I don't remember much more than
18 that other than communicating to George about
19 this matter and decision and how it was to be
20 communicated where he had the facts and I
21 believe I referred him to Mr. Watkins and
22 Mr. Foster for those facts.
105
1 Q Did you discuss with
2 Mr. Stephanopoulos the possibility that
3 announcing these firings would cause
4 controversy, public controversy?
5 A I don't recall the analysis
6 being -- or the judgment being of that type.
7 I think initially we felt it would be viewed
8 positively. But I think -- I just don't
9 remember the conversation at the table,
10 Mr. Klayman. I'd be speculating.
11 Q During the conversations with
12 Stephanopoulos you did discuss, "We better
13 make it clear what our reasons are for this"?
14 There was a conversation to that effect?
15 A Well, again, those are your words.
16 It's been a number of years ago. I've given
17 testimony on this matter, as you know, before
18 and I just simply don't remember the specific
19 language. But I think certainly I wanted
20 Mr. Stephanopoulos to have the facts which
21 would be consistent with what you just said.
22 I just don't remember the specific
106
1 conversation.
2 Q Now, up to the point of the firing
3 do you know of any effort in the White House
4 to procure background information about the
5 histories of the Travel Office employees?
6 A Back -- would you define background
7 information, please?
8 Q Information about their past.
9 A No, not in that way. I asked
10 Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster to review the
11 Travel Office. That perhaps could mean
12 review past practices, but not past
13 background information. I'm not aware of
14 that phrase. I certainly never said anything
15 like that.
16 Q Did you instruct anyone at the
17 White House not to look into their personnel
18 files?
19 A No, I did not instruct -- I didn't
20 give that level of detail of instructions.
21 Q Did you instruct anyone at the
22 White House to be careful not to look into
107
1 their security clearance, FBI files?
2 A No, I did not.
3 Q Are you aware up to the point of
4 the filing as to whether anyone from whatever
5 source looked into the personnel files or FBI
6 files of any of the employees that were fired
7 in the Travel Office?
8 A No, I'm not aware that any of those
9 files were reviewed or looked into.
10 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, you meant up
11 to the point of the firing?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Yeah.
13 MR. SPAEDER: I think you may have
14 said filing.
15 THE WITNESS: He did, but I took it
16 as firing.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I meant firing.
18 Thank you.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Let me show you Exhibit 3.
21 Exhibit 3 is an excerpt from the Committee of
22 Government Reform and Oversight,
108
1 Investigation of the White House Travel
2 Office Firings and Related Matters, Union
3 Calendar Number 461. Take an opportunity, if
4 you would like, to review it, Mr. McLarty.
5 A I would like to, Mr. Klayman, if I
6 may.
7 Q Tell me when you're finished.
8 A Yes, sir. I'm on the last page.
9 Mr. Klayman I have reviewed it.
10 Q Okay.
11 A I've not read every word, but I've
12 reviewed the document.
13 Q I turn your attention to page 173,
14 the center of the page.
15 A Just one moment, sir. All right.
16 Q Is it not true that Mr. Watkins
17 presented a memo to you where he recommended
18 a course of action before the firings?
19 A Are you -- I'm sorry. Are you
20 referring from the report?
21 Q I'm not referring to this
22 specifically now, but you did testify
109
1 Mr. Watkins prepared a memo?
2 A Yes, he did.
3 Q Now, I'm reading in the middle of
4 page 173 of this house report wherein it
5 states, "Mr. Watkins described the pressures
6 he felt Mrs. Clinton and Mr. McLarty in his
7 memo. 'I would have much preferred to have
8 my staff carefully review the travel logs and
9 make a detailed business plan for the new
10 fiscal year. This proved impossible, though,
11 when the pressure for action from
12 Mrs. Clinton and you became irresistible. If
13 I thought I could have resisted those
14 pressures, undertake more considered action
15 and remain in the White House, I certainly
16 would have done so.'"
17 That was contained in a memo which
18 you received from Mr. Watkins, was it not?
19 A Mr. Klayman, I don't believe so. I
20 think this memo you're referring to is a
21 memorandum, if I understand it correctly,
22 that was not sent to me. If I understand
110
1 this correctly, I don't believe this was in
2 the memorandum that I received from
3 Mr. Watkins. I believe this was another
4 memorandum that -- that was not sent to me.
5 So I don't think I have seen this.
6 Q You've never seen this memorandum?
7 A Well, without the original
8 memorandum, Mr. Klayman, I can't say that
9 with absolute certainty, but I don't believe
10 the memorandum that I remember -- again, it's
11 been several years ago -- about the
12 termination of the Travel Office employees
13 contained this -- this paragraph. That is
14 my -- that's as I understand it, Mr. Klayman.
15 Q Now, do you have anything in
16 writing to refute what I just read to you
17 that Mr. Watkins apparently wrote? Do you
18 have anything in writing to say Mrs. Clinton
19 didn't put pressure on him to fire the Travel
20 Office?
21 A No. I have his original
22 memorandum. It's either part of my legal
111
1 proceedings file or at records management,
2 but not -- not in a -- the direct reputation
3 that you suggest, no.
4 Q Now, is there anything in the
5 statement which I just read to you which you
6 consider to be false?
7 A Yes, I disagree with Mr. Watkins'
8 assessment and opinion. I don't necessarily
9 say he's not conveying what he believes is an
10 accurate position, so I'm not challenging his
11 integrity, but I don't agree with his
12 characterization.
13 Q What don't you agree with
14 specifically?
15 A Well, specifically, Mr. Klayman, if
16 Mr. Watkins and Mr. Foster after a review
17 with Peat, Marwick & Mitchell had concluded
18 that there was not a need to make changes in
19 the Travel Office that included a termination
20 of employees, I think I would have accepted
21 their recommendation.
22 Now, that's a hypothetical, but I
112
1 certainly think that's -- that that's a way I
2 would have managed the situation. That was
3 not case. They were very clear in their
4 recommendation about terminating Travel
5 Office employees and making significant
6 changes there.
7 Q But you don't know what, if any,
8 irresistible pressure they were getting from
9 Mrs. Clinton to make that recommendation,
10 correct?
11 A No, I don't know that firsthand. I
12 didn't have that kind of pressure from her or
13 direction.
14 Q Now, you've read this entire
15 Exhibit 3, correct?
16 A I have reviewed it. I -- for the
17 sake of time I didn't read it -- every word,
18 but I reviewed it.
19 Q Is there anything in there when you
20 reviewed it that you saw was incorrect?
21 A Mr. Klayman, I didn't read it,
22 frankly, with that eye. You've asked me
113
1 about this one paragraph. I'm sorry. I
2 would have to study it for a few minutes to
3 take each sentence. I don't agree with the
4 characterization here. This is a pretty full
5 document.
6 Q Now, after the firing --
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did there come a point in time when
9 the FBI was brought into the matter,
10 contacted?
11 A Mr. Klayman, as I remember it, I
12 believe the FBI was contacted before the
13 termination, if I'm not mistaken.
14 Q Who contacted them?
15 A It was through the White House
16 Counsel's Office, through Mr. Foster.
17 Q Were you aware of that contact?
18 A Yes, I believe Mr. Foster told me
19 that he was going to contact the proper
20 officials. He may have said FBI. I
21 certainly learned of it.
22 Q Recommended that contact?
114
1 A No, no, I concurred with
2 Mr. Foster's judgment. It was a White House
3 counsel matter to interface with the FBI.
4 Q Why did he contact the FBI?
5 A As I remember it, he felt there
6 were facts that -- and practices that
7 could -- could suggest not only improper, but
8 illegal behavior, and that that should be
9 handled through the appropriate -- in the
10 appropriate way. As I understood it,
11 Mr. Klayman, and understand it, we have no
12 ability within the White House to do that
13 where there's been a malfeasance of this type
14 and so I left it to the White House Counsel's
15 Office to handle it through the channels that
16 they thought were proper and I think that's
17 how they handed it and the FBI was contacted.
18 Q Did you ask Mr. Foster for any kind
19 of proof that these were not just simple
20 irregularities, but rose to the level of
21 criminal violations of law?
22 A I don't remember whether I asked
115
1 him in that way, Mr. Klayman. I did rely on
2 his judgment and I can say Mr. Foster, by
3 nature in this matter, which I remember, and
4 by nature as I knew him, was prudent and
5 careful, so I relied on him to handle this
6 matter in a careful and appropriate way.
7 Q This entire matter, did it upset
8 Mr. Foster? Was that your observation?
9 A I think it concerned all of us,
10 Mr. Klayman, in the sense that when you're
11 going to terminate employees, it's always not
12 a pleasant matter. I mean it affects various
13 people various ways. It certainly, you know,
14 concerned me in that regard.
15 Q When you were going to terminate
16 people and then sick the FBI on them, that's
17 a pretty serious matter, correct?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
19 Argumentative.
20 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't at all
21 agree with your characterization. I think
22 when you have information that suggests
116
1 possible improprieties or illegalities, that
2 there -- you really are fiduciarily bound to
3 deal with that in a proper way, which is what
4 I believe Mr. Foster did. So I would not
5 agree with your characterization about
6 sicking the FBI on them.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Have you ever been investigated by
9 the FBI personally?
10 A I have been interviewed by the FBI.
11 Q It's not pleasant, is it?
12 A Not many of these depositions or
13 reviews are pleasant activities.
14 Q Is mine more pleasant than the FBI?
15 A I'm not going to rank them.
16 Q How did he contact the FBI?
17 A It was my understanding he was
18 going to contact them through normal
19 channels. I did not get into that level of
20 detail.
21 Q What did you understand
22 subsequently occurred after he told you he
117
1 was going to contact him?
2 A Mr. Klayman, remembering back on
3 this, there are a lot of facts that have come
4 to light after this, so I'm not absolutely
5 comfortable what I'm testifying about
6 happened in real time or I learned about it
7 after time. But at any rate, the FBI was
8 contacted. I think initially there was some
9 lack of clarity which office or arm of the
10 FBI was the proper one to deal with this
11 matter. At some point the FBI was contacted
12 and they did, again, a review of this matter.
13 Q Now, during this period you did
14 have subsequent contact with Mrs. Clinton and
15 others about this entire matter after the
16 firing?
17 A Now, I'm not clear on what you --
18 what your question -- your time frame is,
19 Mr. Klayman, at all.
20 Q Well, you know, we got the firing.
21 You know that, according to your testimony,
22 the FBI was contacted by Mr. Foster before
118
1 the firing?
2 A That's what I believe was the case,
3 yes.
4 Q But I'm saying after the firing you
5 did have follow-up contact with Mrs. Clinton,
6 correct?
7 MR. SPAEDER: Regarding this
8 matter, Counsel?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, this matter.
10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, sitting
11 here today I don't remember a contact with
12 Mrs. Clinton about this matter. It is
13 certainly possible I had some, but I don't
14 remember sitting here today discussing or
15 having an exchange with her about this matter
16 after the termination.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Did you have any contact with
19 Mr. Stephanopoulos after the termination?
20 A I did.
21 Q What kind of contact did you have?
22 A The matter, as you know, was
119
1 controversial and we had a number of press
2 inquiries about it and Mr. Stephanopoulos was
3 dealing with that, as was Ms. Meyers and
4 others, and so I would have regular contact
5 with them, as I would on any topical matter
6 that they were dealing with.
7 Q You are aware that
8 Mr. Stephanopoulos after the firing had
9 contact with the FBI?
10 A I recall an incident involving
11 contact with the FBI that involved
12 Mr. Stephanopoulos.
13 Q What happened?
14 A Mr. Klayman, I don't remember all
15 of the details about that particular incident
16 and how it occurred and the sequence of
17 things.
18 As I remember it, it was about
19 either a press release or statement or
20 something of that nature that
21 Mr. Stephanopoulos and I believe
22 Mr. Nussbaum, the White House counsel, had
120
1 discussed with the FBI public affairs person.
2 I was not in the meeting. I recall there was
3 some controversy or criticism of that.
4 That's about all I remember.
5 Q Mr. Stephanopoulos told the FBI to
6 change the press release, correct?
7 A No, I don't know what he told the
8 FBI, Mr. Klayman. I was not in the meeting.
9 Q What was the involvement of
10 Nussbaum?
11 A I did not call this meeting. I
12 think others did. I don't know who actually
13 convened the meeting and I don't know who
14 asked -- I'm sorry.
15 Q You can go ahead.
16 A I don't know who convened the
17 meeting or who asked certain people to
18 participate. I think I remember Mr. Nussbaum
19 was there.
20 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, I'm not sure
21 if I understand if your question is talking
22 about events he learned after the fact or in
121
1 real time.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry. I didn't
3 hear you.
4 MR. SPAEDER: I wasn't sure whether
5 you were asking him about information that he
6 learned in real time or information he had
7 learned after the fact.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: In real time?
9 MR. SPAEDER: Right. In other
10 words, did he hear about these events from
11 sources as they were occurring or he's
12 alluded to receiving information after the
13 fact.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you can cross
15 on that. I think that was pretty clear.
16 MR. SPAEDER: Well, I think his
17 answer is vague and I object on that ground
18 then.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you know, we've
20 gone along pretty well so far, but I ask you
21 not to make these kinds of objections because
22 they have the effect of giving the witness
122
1 testimony. The court has been very insistent
2 that there not be speaking objections. You
3 will have an opportunity to cross if you
4 would like at the end.
5 THE WITNESS: You're going to have
6 to repeat your question, Mr. Klayman. I
7 lost track here.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Well, what involvement, if any, did
10 Nussbaum have with Stephanopoulos' contact
11 with the FBI? I didn't understand.
12 A I do remember, as I understood it,
13 that Mr. Nussbaum was in the meeting. I
14 believe that I learned that after the fact,
15 not before. I don't believe I even was aware
16 the meeting was taking place. I certainly
17 was not at the meeting. I think either
18 shortly after or perhaps much later when this
19 was written about, I learned that
20 Mr. Nussbaum was in the meeting. I don't
21 know who else was there. I think the FBI
22 person was there. I think I became aware of
123
1 that.
2 Q Now, you also became aware, did you
3 not, that Mr. Stephanopoulos suggested that
4 the press release of the FBI contain the use
5 of the word "criminal" in describing the
6 activities of the Travel Office employees?
7 A No, I'm not aware of that,
8 Mr. Klayman.
9 Q If you knew that, you wouldn't have
10 approved that, would you?
11 MS. ZIEGLER: Objection.
12 Hypothetical question.
13 THE WITNESS: I probably would have
14 relied on other's judgment, Mr. Klayman. I
15 doubt I would have gotten that involved in
16 the press release.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Well, given the fact that there had
19 been no finding by the FBI at that time of
20 criminal conduct, correct? Correct? There
21 had been no finding of the FBI or any other
22 entity that the Travel Office people had
124
1 engaged in criminal conduct, correct?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Up to the point that Stephanopoulos
5 and Nussbaum met with the FBI, correct?
6 A I think -- I don't remember when
7 that meeting took place. I don't think --
8 repeat your question. I'm sorry.
9 Q Up to the point of the meeting
10 between Nussbaum, Stephanopoulos and the
11 FBI there had been no finding by any
12 authority, government or otherwise, that the
13 Travel Office employees had engaged in
14 criminal conduct, correct?
15 A There had been no finding or
16 conclusion. I think the initial feedback I
17 got from Mr. Foster from the FBI or
18 reflecting the FBI was that there was a
19 possibility -- distinct possibility that
20 there indeed could be illegalities here.
21 That was my impression. But not a final
22 conclusion.
125
1 Q But the word "criminal" was never
2 used?
3 A Well, illegalities was used with me
4 I think.
5 Q But the word "criminal" was not
6 used, correct?
7 A I don't recall whether the word
8 "criminal" was used with me or not.
9 Q You are aware that you can engage
10 in legalities that have a civil ramification?
11 A Civil, that's right. That's right.
12 Q Now, based on your reputation for
13 honesty and integrity, you would have never
14 pushed the FBI to put the word "criminal" in
15 a press release, would you?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 Hypothetical. Lacks foundation.
18 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I don't
19 know that Mr. Stephanopoulos pushed them to
20 use specific wording in his press release. I
21 just simply don't know.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
126
1 Q I'm asking you if it had been you
2 who was meeting with the FBI at that time,
3 you wouldn't have recommended that they
4 change the press release to add the word
5 "criminal," would you?
6 A I --
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objections.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Given the status of the matter at
10 that time?
11 A I don't know what I would have done
12 in a particular hypothetical situation. I
13 would have discussed it with others who are
14 experts in this area before I made any
15 decision I think.
16 Q Have you ever accused anybody of
17 criminal conduct?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
19 Relevancy. Argumentative.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A Nothing comes to me -- to mind.
127
1 Perhaps I have at some point in time, but
2 nothing comes to mind.
3 Q You never wrote a press release
4 that accused someone of criminal conduct, did
5 you?
6 A No, no, I've never written a press
7 release.
8 Q During the time you were in the
9 White House you didn't like it when others
10 were accusing the Clinton administration of
11 criminal conduct, correct?
12 A No, I did not like it.
13 Q Which, in fact, happened on a
14 member of occasions, correct?
15 A Where were a lot of allegations and
16 continue to be.
17 Q But that's a serious allegation, is
18 it not?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 Argumentative.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You can respond.
128
1 A It is a serious one. There have
2 been a number of other allegations that are
3 also serious.
4 Q Tell me what, if any, disciplinary
5 action was taken with regard to
6 Mr. Stephanopoulos in the context of this
7 matter in the White House.
8 A We had the Travel Office report
9 that was critical of certain actions, I
10 believe, including this one, if I'm not
11 mistaken, Mr. Klayman.
12 Q Was there any concrete employment
13 action taken with regard to
14 Mr. Stephanopoulos?
15 A No, I don't believe there was.
16 Q Was he reprimanded?
17 A I don't remember sitting here today
18 in the Travel Office report whether
19 Mr. Stephanopoulos was reprimanded or not. I
20 don't believe he was. I think he was
21 criticized in the report for his decision,
22 but I don't believe reprimanded.
129
1 Q Was Mr. Nussbaum in any way
2 reprimanded?
3 A Mr. Klayman, without reviewing the
4 report I don't remember sitting here today.
5 I don't remember a reprimand.
6 Q Did their subsequent exit from the
7 White House have anything to do with their
8 actions in Travelgate, to the best of your
9 knowledge?
10 A No.
11 Q Have you ever talked to
12 Mr. Stephanopoulos about the lawsuit you're
13 appearing here on today?
14 A I have not.
15 Q Have you ever read any orders
16 concerning Mr. Stephanopoulos in this
17 lawsuit?
18 A No, I have not.
19 Q Do you know whether or not he's
20 been sanctioned by the court for not telling
21 the truth?
22 A I do not.
130
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q For not doing an adequate document
4 search?
5 MS. ZIEGLER: Objection.
6 Relevancy.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond. Are you aware of
9 any such --
10 A May I confer with my attorneys,
11 please?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure.
13 (Witness conferred with counsel)
14 MR. SPAEDER: We'll permit him to
15 answer that question to the extent that he
16 learned information outside the context of
17 attorney-client communications.
18 Outside of attorney-client
19 communications did you become aware of it?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, but that's a
21 public fact if it exists, so it wouldn't be a
22 confidential communication anyway. It's not
131
1 a confidential matter.
2 MR. SPAEDER: I don't read the
3 attorney-client privilege that way, Counsel.
4 He's not going to answer any questions about
5 what he learned from counsel. You're welcome
6 to ask him, though, if he learned about it
7 from sources other than counsel.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Respond to that.
10 A I did -- I have not learned about
11 it from sources other than counsel.
12 Q Now, did there come a point in time
13 when you became aware that personnel files
14 were obtained or looked through concerning
15 the White House Travel Office employees that
16 were fired?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
18 foundation.
19 THE WITNESS: I learned of that, I
20 believe, when I read it in the public press.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q When did you read it in the public
132
1 press?
2 A I don't know the time frame,
3 Mr. Klayman.
4 Q Several years ago?
5 A It's been some time ago. I just
6 simply don't remember the time frame.
7 Q Around the time that these actions
8 were alleged to have occurred?
9 A You mean the termination of the
10 Travel Office employees, Mr. Klayman?
11 Q Yes, yes.
12 A My memory is it was sometime
13 considerably later than that.
14 Q What did you learn in the public
15 media?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
17 THE WITNESS: I remember reading
18 about certain allegations that files were --
19 were not being handled appropriately and I
20 believe one of them involved either some
21 or -- or a number of the Travel Office
22 employees. That's about the extent of my
133
1 memory about this.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Do you know what type of files?
4 A The potential inappropriate or
5 alleged inappropriate handling or having FBI
6 files. The Filegate matter, as you referred
7 to, would involve FBI files. I don't know
8 whether they're the same here or not. I
9 believe they are, but I'm not certain.
10 Q What else did you learn? Tell me
11 everything you knew at the time.
12 A At what time, Mr. Klayman?
13 Q When you first learned of it.
14 A Well, I think I have told you
15 everything I knew. I read about it in the
16 paper and that's really the extent of my
17 knowledge. I think I've conveyed about what
18 I got from reading the newspaper article.
19 Q Which paper did you read it in?
20 A I'm not sure which one. I read a
21 lot of newspapers.
22 Q Washington Times or Washington
134
1 Post?
2 A I read both, as well as others.
3 Q You read about these reports at the
4 time you were still White House Chief of
5 Staff?
6 A The FBI file matter, I thought,
7 came after that period, Mr. Klayman. Again,
8 without a review of the time frame, I'm not
9 sure whether I was still Chief of Staff or
10 not. I believe it came some time later.
11 Q What action, if any, did you order
12 once you learned of this FBI file matter?
13 A I don't think I ordered any action.
14 I was not responsible for that, nor did I
15 have the authority to do so. I was working
16 on other matters.
17 Q Were actions, though, were you
18 aware were ordered once that story broke?
19 A I don't think I was aware of any
20 actions. I just simply was not involved in
21 the matter and didn't follow what the White
22 House was doing.
135
1 Q When you read these stories about
2 this file matter, as we'll call it, you were
3 aware that this occurred during the period
4 that you were White House Chief of Staff,
5 alleged to have occurred?
6 A At some point I think I understood
7 that. I'm not sure when I first read the
8 article that I did because I think it came
9 some time later.
10 Q But you were also aware that it
11 related to the White House travel matter?
12 A I don't think I made that linkage,
13 Mr. Klayman, when I read the article.
14 Q Well, did you subsequently make
15 that linkage?
16 A I'm not sure that -- that there is
17 a linkage other than I think perhaps this
18 discovery was made, as I understand it or
19 remember it, by the committee that was
20 reviewing the Travel Office. I'm not sure it
21 has any other linkage to the Travel Office
22 per se.
136
1 Q Well, once the so-called discovery
2 was made and it hit the press, tell me what
3 activity occurred inside the White House
4 concerning this discovery.
5 A Mr. Klayman, I don't know. I was
6 just simply not involved in it.
7 Q Now, given the fact that it
8 occurred during the period you were in
9 charge, this revelation concerned you, didn't
10 it?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Assumes
12 facts not in evidence.
13 THE WITNESS: Again, I'm not sure
14 that when I read about this matter, that I
15 concluded that it happened during a period
16 when I was Chief of Staff and I don't recall
17 that being raised with me by anyone in the
18 White House during this period.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Well, at some point you did
21 determine that it occurred during the period
22 when you were Chief of Staff, correct?
137
1 A At some point I have learned that,
2 yes.
3 Q You learned that during the period
4 you were still with the White House, correct?
5 A I believe I became aware of it at
6 some point when I was still a government
7 employee.
8 Q So at the point that you learned of
9 it, what actions did you or anyone take to
10 find out what happened?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
12 THE WITNESS: I didn't take any
13 actions, Mr. Klayman.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Well, do you know of others that
16 did take actions?
17 A No, I've already testified I do not
18 know what was done about this matter.
19 Q Surely you must have made inquiry
20 to find out what was done?
21 A No, I don't believe that I did.
22 Q You were concerned about this, were
138
1 you not?
2 A I was aware of the matter and the
3 potential concerns. I, frankly, did not know
4 whether the allegations were true or not and
5 it was not something I was working on, so I
6 simply did not review this matter closely.
7 Q Well, given the fact that it
8 occurred while you were White House Chief of
9 Staff, didn't you feel a responsibility that
10 FBI files had been obtained during your
11 watch?
12 A Mr. Klayman, I didn't look at it in
13 that manner. I knew nothing about this and
14 so I did not look at it in a way that you
15 have posed your question.
16 Q But you did know when it hit the
17 press that FBI files, at least of Mr. Billy
18 Dale and Mr. Brasseux were obtained by the
19 White House?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Assumes
21 facts not in evidence.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
139
1 Q You knew that didn't you? You can
2 respond?
3 A At some point I think I was aware
4 perhaps of Mr. Dale's file. As I remember
5 reading it in the paper, there were a number
6 of files and I don't remember feeling that
7 it -- or concluding in any way that it was --
8 had an intersection with the Travel Office
9 other than perhaps Mr. Dale was one of many
10 people who had these files that -- that may
11 or may not have been handled correctly.
12 Q You were aware of hundreds of
13 files, I take it, that had been --
14 A At some point -- at some point I
15 think that it was reported that there were a
16 number of files. I don't know whether they
17 were hundreds or more than five. I don't
18 know about the number.
19 Q You were aware that obtaining FBI
20 files for these individuals was improper,
21 correct?
22 MS. ZIEGLER: Objection. Asks for
140
1 a legal conclusion.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q You can respond based on your
4 knowledge.
5 A No, I did not conclude it was
6 improper. I did not know the facts of the
7 situation. I knew it was a matter of some
8 controversy. It was not what I was involved
9 in or working on and I just did not study it.
10 Q You were aware at some point that
11 FBI Director Louis Freeh called this an
12 egregious violation of privacy of without
13 justification?
14 A I don't recall reading that about
15 Director Freeh's comment.
16 Q Have you ever heard that anywhere?
17 A No. No, I have not.
18 Q You were aware that republicans on
19 Capitol Hill were calling this a violation of
20 law?
21 A I think I was aware there were some
22 allegations to that effect by some members of
141
1 congress.
2 Q You were aware of analogies of what
3 happened during the Nixon administration when
4 just one FBI file was obtained and Charles
5 Coulson went off to prison for it, correct?
6 A No, I was --
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
8 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of
9 that.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Have you ever been aware of that?
12 Did that ever come to your attention, that
13 the Nixon administration had gotten an FBI
14 file and one of their officials went to
15 prison for it?
16 A I don't recall that either during
17 the period it happened or it being raised
18 during this particular matter either.
19 Q Had there come a point in time when
20 you became aware of allegations, that the
21 obtaining of FBI files was alleged to be a
22 violation of law?
142
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Asked and
2 answered.
3 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I don't
4 think I studied this matter that closely or
5 read the press this closely. I knew there
6 were some allegations about it,controversy
7 about it.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Change the tape.
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
10 video record at 12:25 p.m.
11 (Recess)
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
13 record at 12:28.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Mr. McLarty, what I'm asking you
16 is, at the point that you learned that FBI
17 files had been obtained, what action, if any,
18 did you take to find out what actually had
19 occurred while you were Chief of Staff?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Ever.
143
1 A I took no action and have taken no
2 action in that regard.
3 Q Who did you talk with about the
4 issue of the obtaining of FBI files by the
5 White House --
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
7 foundation.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q During the period that you were
10 White House Chief of Staff?
11 A During the period I was at --
12 Q I mean once you learned about this
13 whole incident, the FBI file incident, who
14 did you talk with about it.
15 A I believe that was after I was
16 Chief of Staff.
17 Q Right, right, but who did you talk
18 with about it?
19 A Mr. Klayman, I don't remember
20 talking to anyone about it and I'm not sure
21 that I did.
22 Q Did anyone inside the White House
144
1 come to you and say Mack, what do you know
2 about this?
3 A They may have. I don't remember
4 that they did.
5 Q Did anyone at the FBI ever come and
6 visit you in and around the period that
7 you've been at the White House and ask you
8 what happened about the FBI file incident?
9 Have you ever been interviewed in that
10 regard?
11 A I think I had been asked about this
12 matter before in either an interview or
13 deposition. I don't recall whether it was by
14 the FBI or some other agency or congressional
15 staff.
16 Q That was in the last what? Two
17 years?
18 A I believe that's right,
19 Mr. Klayman.
20 Q Did anyone in the White House
21 Counsel's Office ever come to you and say
22 Mack, what happened with regard to these FBI
145
1 files?
2 A Mr. Klayman, they may have. I
3 don't remember a specific person or a
4 specific incident of that type, but that
5 certainly could be the case.
6 Q But you were aware reading the
7 press reports of allegations that this
8 constituted criminal conduct?
9 A No, no, I was not aware of that. I
10 was aware there were allegations that there
11 had been some mishandling of FBI files,
12 allegations. I don't think that I ever
13 concluded that they were valid or factual
14 allegations and I don't think I ever
15 reflected on whether or not they were a
16 criminal violation or not. I just simply did
17 not get into this matter in that detail.
18 Q But you were aware that others were
19 saying it was a criminal violation?
20 A I don't believe I've testified to
21 that. I believe I have testified I read
22 about the matter, I knew there were
146
1 allegations that these files had not been
2 handled properly. It's -- I certainly -- it
3 certainly could have been reported in the
4 press, but I don't remember keying in on any
5 criminal violation.
6 Q You knew there was outrage among
7 the republicans about this, correct?
8 A I knew some republicans were very
9 displeased about this, yes.
10 Q You know that some reporters were
11 outraged about this? Some of the written
12 media were outraged?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
14 Relevancy.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Correct?
17 A I knew there had been -- there was
18 a controversy surrounding this matter and
19 people had opinions on both sides of the
20 issue, including reporters, not just --
21 Q Right, and you knew this was a
22 serious issues?
147
1 A I knew it was a matter of -- an
2 issue that was causing some controversy.
3 Q Knew it was serious?
4 A Well, there have been a number of
5 matters that have caused controversy that may
6 or may not have been serious.
7 Q Well, yes or no?
8 A I don't think I had concluded
9 whether it was serious or not because there
10 were allegations.
11 Q You're telling me you can remember
12 no contact with anyone except for possible
13 contact with congress or an independent
14 counsel years later? You can remember no
15 contact or discussion with anyone in and
16 around the time the Filegate controversy rose
17 where you discussed this with anybody?
18 A Yes, that's my testimony.
19 Q Given the outrage on Capitol Hill,
20 given the outrage among some reporters, this
21 was a matter which didn't concern you?
22 A Oh, I wouldn't characterize that it
148
1 didn't concern me and I knew there were
2 strong feelings about it, but, again, in my
3 mind I had read about it, was not involved in
4 it, I knew nothing about it and they were
5 allegations about the mishandling of these
6 files or the inappropriateness. So that's
7 how I looked at the situation.
8 Q Now, has it ever hit you that since
9 you were White House Chief of Staff, that you
10 may be the one who's legally responsible?
11 MS. ZIEGLER: Calls for a legal
12 conclusion.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Has that ever come to your, as
15 lawyers say, mental sense impression?
16 A I just know nothing about this
17 matter. I don't about the actual legal
18 responsibility, Mr. Klayman.
19 Q Has it ever dawned on you that you
20 might be held responsible?
21 A As Chief of Staff, you're held
22 responsible for a number of things.
149
1 Q Have you ever consulted with
2 counsel about your exposure on this matter?
3 MR. SPAEDER: Objection. He's not
4 going to discuss who he's consulted with on a
5 subject like that.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Have you ever discussed the FBI
8 file matter with Mrs. Clinton?
9 A No, I have not.
10 Q With Mr. Clinton?
11 A No, I have not.
12 Q With George Stephanopoulos?
13 A No, I have not.
14 Q With James Carville?
15 A No, I have not.
16 Q With Leon Panetta?
17 A No, I have not.
18 Q With Jane Sherburne?
19 A No, I don't believe that I have.
20 Q With Bernie Nussbaum?
21 A No, I have not.
22 Q With Jack Quinn?
150
1 A To the best of my memory I have
2 not.
3 Q With Lloyd Cutler?
4 A No, I don't believe I have.
5 Q With Abner Mikva?
6 A I don't recall any discussions with
7 Judge Mikva.
8 Q With Lanny Davis?
9 A No, I don't believe I discussed it
10 with Lanny Davis.
11 Q With Lanny Brewer?
12 A No, I don't believe I discussed it
13 with Lanny Brewer.
14 Q With Bernie Nussbaum?
15 A I think I've already testified no.
16 Q With Webster Hubbell?
17 A No, I have not.
18 Q With anyone you can remember before
19 lunch?
20 A Mr. Klayman, I've already testified
21 that to the very best of my memory, I do not
22 recall discussing this matter with anybody.
151
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take lunch.
2 Come back in an hour.
3 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
4 video record at 12:35 p.m.
5 (Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., a
6 Luncheon recess was taken.)
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
152
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (1:45 p.m.)
3 Whereupon,
4 THOMAS F. McLARTY III
5 was recalled as a witness, and having been
6 previously duly sworn was examined and
7 testified further as follows:
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
9 record at 1:45 p.m.
10 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
11 CONTINUED
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Mr. McLarty, you realize you're
14 still under oath?
15 A I do.
16 Q Tell me everything that you know
17 about the controversy by the name of
18 Filegate.
19 A Mr. Klayman, I believe I've already
20 done that in earlier testimony. I recall
21 learning of the matter, I believe, through
22 the public press. It had to do, as I
153
1 understood it, with certain FBI files that
2 were held or in the possession of certain
3 White House offices and the issue was whether
4 they should be in the possession of the White
5 House and were they being used for any
6 purpose and, as I recall it, there were a
7 relatively large number of files -- I don't
8 recall the specific number, but more than 5
9 and perhaps over 50 -- that were part of this
10 issue. I think it had to do with primarily
11 files of either career people or republican
12 holdovers, people that had served in the
13 Reagan or Bush administration. That's, I
14 think, a fair presentation of what I
15 understood about this matter.
16 Q That's all that you know?
17 A Yes, it is.
18 Q The only way you obtained that
19 information was in the media?
20 A To the very best of my
21 recollection, that's how I learned of it and
22 that's how I obtained my information about
154
1 this matter.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I'll
3 ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 4.
4 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
5 No. 4 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Have you ever seen this document
9 before?
10 A No, I have not.
11 Q This is a document styled, "The
12 Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition,"
13 which is a reproduction of a memorandum
14 written by Jane Sherburne, JCS, Jane C.
15 Sherburne, privileged, task list,
16 December 13th 1994.
17 What was your position at the White
18 House on December 13, 1994?
19 A December 1994, Mr. Klayman?
20 Q Yes.
21 A I was counselor for the President.
22 Q Now, in this memorandum are listed
155
1 a number of different things. I want to ask
2 you what you know about some of these things.
3 A All right.
4 Q The second thing that is listed
5 here is called Travel Office Cerf. Do you
6 know what the reference to Cerf likely means?
7 A No, I do not.
8 Q Was there a Mr. Cerf that works in
9 the White House?
10 A I am not aware of anyone named
11 Mr. Cerf of or Ms. Cerf.
12 Q Is that an acronym for something in
13 the White House?
14 A I'm just not familiar with this
15 reference, Mr. Klayman. I don't know what it
16 stands for.
17 Q During the time that you were White
18 House Chief of Staff were meetings held to
19 discuss the various Clinton controversies?
20 A There were meetings held,
21 discussions had about a number of topical
22 issues in the press and some of those, I
156
1 think, would be -- could be categorized as
2 controversies or allegations.
3 Q What mechanism existed to hold
4 those meetings? Were they formal meetings,
5 informal meetings? Formal, informal? How
6 did it work?
7 A It varied significantly regarding
8 the subject matter and the circumstance,
9 Mr. Klayman, and so I don't think it was a
10 formal procedure to have these discussions or
11 meetings about this matter or other matters.
12 Q Well, let's take Travelgate. I
13 take it that you did discuss Travelgate on at
14 least one occasion with the President?
15 A I believe after we made the
16 decision and it became a matter of public
17 controversy, I had a discussion with the
18 President and, Mr. Klayman, sitting here
19 today, and I've offered earlier testimony and
20 I have not reviewed that testimony carefully
21 before this deposition, I don't recall
22 mentioning the Travel Office matter to the
157
1 President -- I may have -- about the possible
2 decision, but I don't recall that I did.
3 Q Do you recall anything of what was
4 discussed?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
6 foundation.
7 THE WITNESS: No, I do not
8 remember. It is not coming to mind my
9 discussing the matter with the President
10 after it became a matter of public
11 controversy, but I feel certain that I --
12 that I had some -- I noted it to him in some
13 way.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q You did what?
16 A I noted him -- I noted it to him,
17 discussed it with him, made him aware of the
18 matter in some way.
19 Q Have you ever discussed
20 Mrs. Clinton's involvement in Travelgate with
21 the President?
22 A No, I do not believe that I have.
158
1 Q Have you ever discussed
2 Mrs. Clinton's known involvement in
3 Travelgate with her after the firings?
4 A No, I do not believe that I have.
5 Q Have you ever discussed Travelgate
6 with the vice-president or anyone in his
7 office?
8 A No, I don't believe I've had any
9 contact with the vice-president about this
10 matter and I certainly can't recall any
11 contact with anyone in his office about it.
12 Q Did you ever discuss after the
13 firings the Travel Office controversy with
14 Vince Foster?
15 A Yes.
16 Q I don't believe you've testified to
17 that, but tell me if you did.
18 MR. SPAEDER: You mean in this
19 deposition?
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
159
1 Q I don't believe you testified to
2 that, but tell me if you did. Please correct
3 me.
4 A You mean in this deposition?
5 Q Yes, after the firings.
6 A I don't believe I've been asked
7 about it in this deposition.
8 Q I'm asking you now what was
9 discussed.
10 A I think I had some regular contact
11 with Mr. Foster after the termination of the
12 Travel Office employees. As it became a
13 matter of public controversy and we responded
14 to those issues, he wanted to do so in a
15 factual way. He had been involved in that
16 decision so he, of course, knew many of the
17 facts that were necessary to respond.
18 So I think I had discussions with
19 him, Mr. Klayman, along that line -- along
20 those lines. Then when we -- when
21 Mr. Panetta and I asked Mr. Podesta to write
22 the Travel Office report, which was an
160
1 objective and critical review of some of the
2 actions and decisions, I discussed the report
3 with Mr. Foster because he was part of that
4 report, as was -- as were others that worked
5 with the report.
6 Q Did Mr. Foster become despondent
7 over the Travel Office matter?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I
10 would, even with the tragic loss of his life,
11 describe his feelings or personal behavior as
12 despondent after the Travel Office
13 termination. No, sir, I don't believe I
14 would describe it that way.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Do you have an opinion as to
17 whether or not what we call Travelgate led to
18 his suicide in part?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I have
21 given the loss of Vince's life some thought
22 reflection as a good friend. I don't think I
161
1 have formed an opinion or conclusion what led
2 to the taking of his life.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q During your discussions with
5 Mr. Foster or anyone else was it ever
6 discussed what would not be revealed to the
7 public about Travelgate?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
9 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall
10 any discussions that had that tenor, tone or
11 subject matter.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Well, was there ever a discussion
14 as to what the public had a right to know and
15 what the public didn't need to know, legally
16 speaking?
17 A I don't recall any discussions of
18 that type at all, Mr. Klayman.
19 Q Mr. McLarty, did you ever fail to
20 disclose when asked by any government
21 authority the President's prior knowledge
22 that the Travel Office employees would be
162
1 dismissed?
2 A Would you repeat your question,
3 sir?
4 Q Did the President know before you
5 ultimately fired the Travel Office employees
6 that they were going to be fired?
7 A Mr. Klayman, I've already provided
8 testimony about that just a few moments ago.
9 I don't remember my telling the President or
10 informing him of that decision. It is
11 possible that I did. I have a vague
12 recollection of raising this matter with him
13 after the termination because it was a matter
14 of some controversy and he was being asked
15 about it. I don't have a clear recollection
16 of that discussion, but I have always tried
17 to respond truthfully to any questions I have
18 been asked about this matter or any others.
19 Q You are aware, are you not, that
20 the House report concluded, the House report
21 investigation on the Travelgate matter that,
22 "Mr. McLarty covered up the fact that the
163
1 President knew about the firings before they
2 occurred"?
3 A It's been a number of years since
4 that report. I'm not sure that I agreed with
5 some of the conclusions in that report. I
6 don't remember that exact conclusion.
7 Q You don't remember that accusation?
8 A Sitting here today I don't.
9 Q Do you know whether anyone
10 addressed that accusation at the time? Did
11 you have your counsel respond to the House
12 and ask that that be stricken from their
13 report?
14 A What is the date of that report?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
16 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
17 Exhibit 5.
18 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
19 No. 5 was marked for
20 identification.)
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Looking at Exhibit 5, page 95, I'm
164
1 reading first full paragraph, last sentence,
2 "Finally McLarty covered up the fact that the
3 President knew about the firings before they
4 occurred." Does this refresh your
5 recollection?
6 A I'm sorry, Mr. Klayman. What page
7 are you on?
8 Q Page 95.
9 A Then what --
10 Q Look into the second paragraph
11 under D.
12 A I see it. I just didn't see the
13 last paragraph.
14 Q "Finally, McLarty covered up the
15 fact that the President knew about the
16 firings before they occurred."
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q Does that refresh your
19 recollection?
20 A I remember the report. I obviously
21 take strong exception to the fact that I
22 covered up anything, Mr. Klayman. I don't
165
1 agree with this conclusion at all.
2 Q What I'm asking you is whether you
3 ever instructed anyone, your counsel or
4 anyone else, to set the House straight on
5 this conclusion.
6 A I don't recall my giving any
7 directions of that type.
8 Q Did you ever have any discussion
9 with David Gergen about quelling statements
10 in the media that Mrs. Clinton and Susan
11 Thomases were behind the Travel Office
12 firings?
13 A I don't remember any discussion
14 with Mr. Gergen about that matter. I
15 discussed a wide range of issues with
16 Mr. Gergen during the time he was at the
17 White House. I don't remember discussing
18 this matter with him.
19 Q What involvement, if any, did
20 Mr. Gergen have in the Travel Office
21 controversy?
22 A I believe Mr. Gergen joined the
166
1 White House some time after the controversy,
2 if I'm recalling correctly and, therefore,
3 had limited involvement. He was someone that
4 I valued his opinion on communication and
5 press matters and so if this was a matter of
6 public controversy or a press story, he might
7 have been consulted about that story.
8 Q Mr. Gergen was brought in to
9 replace Mr. Stephanopoulos?
10 A Not directly, but he was
11 responsible for the communications which
12 Mr. Stephanopoulos had been -- it was not a
13 specific change of one position for another.
14 For example Mr. Gergen did not do the
15 briefings, as Mr. Stephanopoulos had, and
16 Mr. Stephanopoulos, as you know, stayed with
17 the White House. So it was a different
18 position. I believe he came in as counselor
19 for the President, if I'm not mistaken.
20 Q One of the reasons that
21 Mr. Stephanopoulos was moved out of the
22 communications department was, in part,
167
1 because of the Travel Office matter?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
3 Relevancy.
4 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I don't
5 believe I agree with that statement that you
6 posed. I don't recall the Travel Office
7 being part of the decision to move
8 Mr. Stephanopoulos to other responsibilities.
9 I don't recall that being a factoring
10 decision.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Was his decision to be moved was in
13 any way related to his performance as
14 communications director?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. I would
16 just like to remind you that the court has
17 ruled that that's not a relevant matter in
18 this case.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q You can respond.
21 A I think the decision about a
22 personnel change always has many factors in
168
1 it and I think we determined -- we being the
2 President and me and others -- that the
3 President would be better served if at this
4 point in time Mr. Stephanopoulos had other
5 responsibilities and we had a different
6 approach to communications and to the people
7 that dealt with them. I mean that's how the
8 decision was framed.
9 Q The bottom line is Stephanopoulos
10 wasn't moved because of anything he did in
11 Travelgate?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q He wasn't moved because of any
14 issue involving his behavior and conduct in
15 general?
16 A Regarding Travelgate?
17 Q On any matter.
18 A Not his behavior and not his
19 conduct. I think, again, I tried to get some
20 insight into the decision, as I remember it.
21 In many cases, Mr. Klayman, and I think this
22 was one, some reassigning of responsibilities
169
1 after certain points in time seem to be the
2 proper renewing steps in any organization and
3 certainly that's the case in White House and
4 government. I think that's how this decision
5 should be classified or characterized.
6 Q Now, what involvement, if any, did
7 John Podesta have in the Travel Office
8 matter?
9 A Mr. Podesta was the person that
10 Mr. Panetta and I asked to conduct a Travel
11 Office review -- travel -- and write a Travel
12 Office report about this matter.
13 Q Is it not true that Podesta, prior
14 to being put in charge of this review, did
15 have knowledge about Mr. Thomason's efforts
16 to obtain government contracts as well as the
17 President's effort to help Mr. Thomason?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form,
19 compound.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether
21 Mr. Podesta had knowledge of that or not,
22 Mr. Klayman. He may have had. I don't
170
1 recall specifically that he did, but he
2 certainly may have had.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Before assigning him to conduct
5 this management review did you make any
6 effort to determine what knowledge
7 Mr. Podesta had about these matters?
8 A I recall discussing this
9 responsibility or this assignment with
10 Mr. Podesta. I don't recall phrasing the
11 question the way you just have in terms of
12 his prior knowledge about the matter.
13 Q What did you ask Mr. Podesta?
14 A I asked him to undertake an
15 objective review of this matter and to write
16 a report.
17 Q Well, what I'm asking you is
18 whether you made any determination as to
19 whether if you were assigning him to make
20 that report, you looked into whether he had
21 any contacts or knowledge about Mr. Thomason
22 before?
171
1 A I didn't specifically, to the best
2 of my memory, Mr. Klayman, ask him about
3 Mr. Thomason.
4 Q Are you aware of John Podesta
5 reviewing the personnel files of Travel
6 Office employees?
7 A No, I'm not.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
9 foundation.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Are you ever aware of whether or
12 not Mr. Podesta ever said there was an
13 official need for him to review those
14 personnel files?
15 A I don't recall Mr. Podesta bringing
16 that matter to my attention or his saying
17 that.
18 Q But you are aware that he did
19 review personnel files?
20 A No, I'm not aware of that.
21 Q Do you know whether Craig
22 Livingstone ever discussed FBI files with
172
1 anyone in your Chief of Staff's office?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
3 foundation.
4 THE WITNESS: No, I do not.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
6 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
7 Exhibit 6.
8 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
9 No. 6 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 6
13 before? This is an excerpt from an
14 investigation of the White House Travel
15 Office Firings and Related Matters. It's
16 pages 844, 852 and 853.
17 A Mr. Klayman, I believe, but without
18 looking at the full document I can't be sure,
19 that the first page may have been contained
20 in the Travel Office report, but I'm not sure
21 of that.
22 Q Well, look at item 7 and 8.
173
1 Item 7, "June 30, 1993, memorandum for John
2 Podesta from Mary Beck." Who is Mary Beck?
3 A I don't believe I know Mary Beck.
4 Q "Regarding efforts by Chief of
5 Staff's Office to obtain the personnel files
6 of seven Travel Office employees." Does that
7 refresh your recollection?
8 A It does not.
9 Q Number eight, "July 15th memorandum
10 to Irene McGowan." Who is Irene McGowan?
11 A I don't know Ms. McGowan.
12 Q "From Mary Beck regarding tracking
13 down the personnel files of the seven Travel
14 Office employees." Does that refresh your
15 recollection?
16 A It does not.
17 Q If you had known that Mr. Podesta
18 had obtained the Travel Office personnel
19 files, would have you taken any action as
20 Chief of Staff?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
22 Hypothetical.
174
1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I don't
2 know whether I would have or not.
3 Mr. Panetta and I asked Mr. Podesta to
4 conduct this report and to gather information
5 and felt -- had a high degree of confidence
6 in his ability to do that professionally and
7 appropriately.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Turn your attention to Exhibit 5
10 that you should have in front of you.
11 MR. SPAEDER: It's a prior exhibit.
12 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Page 97. Last two paragraphs
15 referring to Mr. Podesta's report called the
16 Management Review.
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q It quotes this report, House
19 report, "A pattern developed throughout the
20 course of the review: Information
21 unflattering to the Travel Office employee
22 was included in the report, exculpatory
175
1 information was not. In the case of Harry
2 Thomason, little unflattering information was
3 included. This is essentially true where
4 such information might involve the
5 President."
6 Did you have any discussions with
7 anyone about making this report in the most
8 favorable light to the President and
9 excluding any information that was favorable
10 to the Travel Office employees?
11 A No, I did not.
12 Q Did you know of anyone who did?
13 A No, I'm not aware of anyone that
14 did.
15 Q Next paragraph, "In seeking
16 derogatory information on Travel Office
17 employees, Podesta reviewed their personnel
18 files." Does.
19 That refresh your recollection as
20 to Podesta's reviewing Travel Office
21 personnel files?
22 A No, it doesn't.
176
1 Q "Mary Beck, the Director of
2 Personnel in the Office of Administration,
3 said this was the only instance during her
4 tenure in the White House which such an
5 unusual request was made of her office."
6 Does this refresh your recollection
7 as to who Mary Beck is?
8 A I just simply don't believe I know
9 Ms. Beck, Mr. Klayman.
10 Q Have you ever met Craig
11 Livingstone?
12 A I have.
13 Q When did you first meet him?
14 A First time I met Mr. Livingstone
15 was during the Inaugural activities.
16 Q Under what circumstances did you
17 meet him?
18 A I believe I saw him at the Lincoln
19 Memorial and he introduced himself and I
20 believe helped my wife and family and I leave
21 that particular event, as I recall it.
22 Q At the time that you met Craig
177
1 Livingstone what was his position?
2 A I didn't know what position he had,
3 if any, other than he seemed to be involved
4 in the event that evening at the Lincoln
5 Memorial.
6 Q How is it that you're able to
7 remember him?
8 A I just remember -- recall meeting
9 him that particular evening.
10 Q Would you have been able to recall
11 meeting him had it not been he was involved
12 in the Filegate controversy?
13 A Oh, yes, I think I would remember
14 meeting him.
15 Q What was it about it him that
16 caused you to remember him? He was just an
17 usher, right?
18 A I don't know what responsibility he
19 had that evening. I was certainly grateful
20 for him showing us the right way to get out
21 of this particular event. But I, generally,
22 recall meeting people particularly if you get
178
1 to know them afterwards.
2 Q You have a pretty good memory,
3 don't you?
4 A On some things. Probably not as
5 good as when I was 42 as it is when I'm 52.
6 Q Was it something about his physical
7 appearance that struck you?
8 A No, I just remember meeting him,
9 Mr. Klayman. I think I can say that about a
10 lot of other people. Some people I might not
11 remember meeting.
12 Q Did there come a point in time when
13 you met Mr. Livingstone again?
14 A Yes.
15 Q When was that?
16 A I don't remember, Mr. Klayman, the
17 next time that I saw Mr. Livingstone. I saw
18 him at some point after that first meeting
19 and, therefore, met him again. I just don't
20 remember when the next time was.
21 Q What were the circumstances of the
22 next meeting?
179
1 A Well, if I don't remember it, I
2 can't remember the circumstances.
3 Q Do you remember ever having talked
4 to Mr. Livingstone about anything of
5 substance?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
7 THE WITNESS: I recall on one
8 occasion Mr. Livingstone raising a Secret
9 Service issue with me, perhaps who was going
10 to be involved in the President's Secret
11 Service detail. I remember that. I have a
12 vague recollection of a conversation with him
13 about that.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q What was the full nature of that
16 conversation?
17 A I don't remember much more than
18 that. It was outside. I remember that. It
19 was some event outside on the White House
20 grounds that I believe the President had been
21 involved in. As we were walking back to the
22 White House, Mr. Livingstone took that
180
1 occasion to raise an issue with me either
2 about an individual or something along the
3 lines of the President's Secret Service
4 detail or something like that. That is all I
5 remember and, to the best of my memory,
6 that's the only issue of substance that I
7 ever discussed with Mr. Livingstone.
8 Q Now, during the time that you were
9 in the White House you are aware of concern
10 by the Clintons about individuals assigned to
11 their Secret Service detail, correct?
12 A I am.
13 Q What was the nature of that
14 concern?
15 A I think --
16 MS. ZIEGLER: Objection to the
17 relevance of this question.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A I think it was about their privacy
21 and, as I recall, for any of the Secret
22 Service agents communicating with the news
181
1 media in some way about their relationship or
2 something along those lines. I think there
3 was an article in one of the weekly magazines
4 about it.
5 Q About an alleged altercation or
6 something to that effect?
7 A I think an alleged disagreement,
8 argument.
9 Q As a result of that incident, did
10 anyone in the White House look into the
11 personnel files or government files of these
12 Secret Service employees?
13 A I'm not aware of anyone reviewing
14 the personnel files of any Secret Service
15 person regarding this incident or any other.
16 Q In fact, Livingstone raised the
17 issue of this Secret Service agent because of
18 concern about his or her behavior correct?
19 A Mr. Klayman, I think that's
20 incorrect. As I vaguely recall this instant,
21 I don't think it had anything to do with any
22 individual's conduct. I think it was
182
1 advocating a certain person for the detail or
2 to remain on the detail. I think -- as I
3 remember, it was positive and I don't think
4 it was related in any way to the matters that
5 you're raising in asking these questions.
6 That's how I recall it.
7 Q There come a point in time when you
8 became aware that Livingstone was working
9 inside the White House, correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q How did you become aware of that?
12 A I'm not sure how I became aware of
13 that. I saw him from time to time, so I was
14 aware he was working in the White House. But
15 I don't recall whether he told me or whether
16 someone else did or I just concluded it after
17 I saw him two or three times.
18 Q Mr. Livingstone, he was recommended
19 by Mrs. Clinton?
20 A I don't know that, Mr. Klayman. I
21 don't know how he was hired.
22 Q Well, there was scuttlebutt in the
183
1 White House as to how he got there, was there
2 not?
3 A I never heard it.
4 Q You never heard any rumors?
5 A I did not.
6 Q Have you ever heard any reports
7 that Mrs. Clinton had strongly recommended
8 him?
9 A I think I have read about those
10 assertions in the paper. I don't -- in the
11 public press. I have no reason to believe
12 they're accurate.
13 Q Did you ever meet Special Agent
14 Sculimbrene of the FBI during your tenure at
15 the White House?
16 A I met a number of FBI agents over
17 the course of the last five and-a-half years
18 and I don't recall meeting the particular
19 individual that you're referring to, but it's
20 possible that I did.
21 Q Were you interviewed by a member of
22 the FBI, an agent of the FBI, in terms of
184
1 obtaining your security clearance to work at
2 the White House?
3 A I've had a number of interviews
4 with FBI personnel and a number of visits --
5 I always try to be responsive -- and I
6 believe I was interviewed about my security
7 clearance. I feel confident I went through
8 the proper procedures and channels to obtain
9 your security clearance.
10 Q Were either of those agents named
11 Sculimbrene or Aldrich?
12 A I had met Mr. Aldrich. I don't
13 recall it was about my security clearance,
14 however, and I -- as I testified earlier, I
15 had met with a number of FBI agents on a
16 number of matters, Mr. Klayman, and I
17 certainly could have met Mr. Sculimbrene, who
18 you're referring to. I just don't recall the
19 name and the individual if I have met him.
20 Q Have you ever met a Howard Shapiro?
21 He was general counsel to the FBI.
22 A I have certainly heard his name. I
185
1 don't believe I have met Mr. Shapiro.
2 Q When the FBI scandal first became
3 public, the Filegate scandal or the
4 controversy, whatever you want to call it,
5 Mr. Shapiro was reported to have run over to
6 the White House to tip certain people off.
7 Have you heard anything to that effect?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
9 THE WITNESS: No, I have not.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Have you ever talked to Mr. Shapiro
12 about anything?
13 A To the very best of my knowledge,
14 Mr. Klayman, I've never met Mr. Howard
15 Shapiro.
16 Q Have you ever met a Larry Potts?
17 A No, sir, I don't believe I've met
18 Mr. Potts.
19 Q He was an official at the FBI as
20 well.
21 A I recall reading some public press
22 accounts about Mr. Potts.
186
1 Q Have you ever talked to him?
2 A To the very best of my memory and
3 knowledge, I have not.
4 Q Have you ever met or talked with
5 Terry Lenzner, L-e-n-z-n-e-r?
6 A No, I have not.
7 Q Do you know who he is?
8 A I have read public press accounts
9 of who he is. I do not know him.
10 Q Are you aware of whether or not his
11 daughter worked for George Stephanopoulos in
12 the White House?
13 A I'm not aware of that.
14 Q Have you ever talked with or met a
15 Jack Palladino?
16 A No, I have not.
17 Q Anthony Pellicano, same question?
18 A No, I have not.
19 Q Are you aware of anyone in the
20 Clinton campaign in 1992, leading up to the
21 election of the presidency, who employed a
22 private investigator?
187
1 A No, I am not.
2 Q Are you aware of any private
3 investigators who worked on behalf of the
4 Clinton campaign?
5 A No, I am not.
6 Q Are you aware of any investigators
7 now working for attorneys of the President?
8 A I think I read a public press
9 account where there might be an investigative
10 arm or person working for the law firm that's
11 representing the President.
12 Q Have you ever spoken with anyone
13 about the subject of this report, the
14 investigators?
15 A Which report, Mr. Klayman, are you
16 referring to?
17 Q Well, strike that.
18 Are you aware that the law firm of
19 Williams & Connolly has stated that it's
20 employed Terry Lenzner on behalf of the
21 President?
22 A I have read some public accounts
188
1 about that. I don't know any more than that.
2 I just skimmed the article. I don't know
3 whether Williams & Connolly made that
4 statement or it was asserted. I just simply
5 don't know.
6 Q Have you talked to Mr. David
7 Kendall, of Williams & Connolly, in the last
8 six months?
9 A Yes, I've seen Mr. Kendall.
10 Q How many times have you talked to
11 him in the last six months?
12 A I believe only once. It's possible
13 in the last six months I have seen
14 Mr. Kendall on another occasion, but I can
15 only remember one occasion.
16 Q What occasion did you see him?
17 A I happened to meet him at the gate
18 as I was entering the White House after I had
19 left government and we were both involved in
20 a meeting with the President regarding the
21 Clinton library.
22 Q Have you ever talked to Mr. Kendall
189
1 about the Travelgate or Filegate
2 controversies?
3 A No, I don't believe I've ever
4 talked to Mr. Kendall about the travel matter
5 or the file controversy, no, I have not.
6 Q Have you ever talked to Mr. Kendall
7 about any women who have claimed to have had
8 relationships with the President?
9 A No, I've not.
10 Q Do you know any of these women?
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
12 foundation.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: If you would like me
14 to give you a foundation, I can.
15 MS. ZIEGLER: Object to relevance.
16 THE WITNESS: I think you need to
17 ask me about a specific individual.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Do you know Dolly Kyle Browning?
20 A I do not.
21 Q Have you ever met her?
22 A No.
190
1 Q Have you ever heard of her?
2 A I've seen her on television.
3 Q Have you ever --
4 A Read newspaper accounts.
5 Q Have you ever spoken to anyone
6 about her?
7 A No, I have not.
8 Q Same question with regard to
9 Gennifer Flowers?
10 A I do not know Ms. Flowers.
11 Q Have you ever spoken to anybody
12 about Ms. Flowers?
13 A No, I have not.
14 Q Are there any other women who have
15 been alleged to have been connected to the
16 President that you have spoken to anybody
17 about?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form,
19 foundation.
20 THE WITNESS: Again, you said these
21 women. Ms. Jones, no.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
191
1 Q There was a woman who was alleged
2 to have been a Playboy Bunny. I always
3 forget the name. Which one is that?
4 A You asked about specific women.
5 Q Yeah, I'm trying to -- I can't
6 remember the name. Elizabeth Grayson?
7 A Ms. Ward I believe was
8 Ms. Arkansas, if I'm not mistaken.
9 Q Right.
10 A I do not know --
11 Q I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say
12 Playboy Bunny.
13 A I don't know Ms. Ward.
14 Q Do you know whether or not private
15 investigators were hired by anyone to
16 investigate these women?
17 A No, I do not to the best -- no, I
18 do not know.
19 Q Have you ever worked with or hired
20 a private investigator, you or your
21 companies?
22 A I don't believe so. It is possible
192
1 that during my time at ARKLA our counsel's
2 office or law firm that we retained might
3 have hired a private investigator or someone
4 of that type to investigate. I don't recall
5 any sitting here today, but that's possible.
6 Q During the time you were at the
7 White House are you aware of information
8 gathering by or on behalf of the Clinton
9 administration by private investigators?
10 A No, I was not and am not.
11 Q Have you had any contact with
12 Mickey Kantor in the last six months?
13 A I have.
14 Q How many such contacts?
15 A I have seen Mr. Kantor on a couple
16 of occasions recently, a couple of special
17 occasions recently.
18 Q Have you talked with him outside of
19 a social context?
20 A I believe I talked to him once on
21 the telephone outside of a social context.
22 Q When was that?
193
1 A It's been probably within in the
2 last six weeks.
3 Q What was discussed?
4 A I told him I was leaving government
5 and at some point I hoped we could get
6 together and talk about transition to the
7 private sector, thoughts he had about that
8 matter.
9 Q Did you discuss anything with
10 regard to the current Clinton controversies?
11 A Did not.
12 Q Did he tell you what he was doing
13 for the White House or the President if
14 anything?
15 A No, he did not. He didn't say any
16 I didn't ask.
17 Q Are you aware of any activities on
18 his part on behalf of the President?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What are those activities?
21 A I don't know the specifics. I have
22 read where -- I have read in the public press
194
1 where --
2 Q Generalities.
3 A I have read in the public press
4 where he is advising the President about some
5 of these controversies.
6 Q In the last six months have you
7 spoken or met with James Carville?
8 A Yes, I've spoken with Mr. Carville
9 once on the telephone.
10 Q When was that?
11 A It's been in the last two months.
12 Q Have you spoken one time?
13 A I believe that's the only time I've
14 seen Mr. Carville in the last six months.
15 Q Who called who?
16 A He called me.
17 Q What did he say to you?
18 A He had just gotten back from South
19 America, Latin America, and wanted to give me
20 a quick update on some of his observations
21 about the landscape there, the political
22 landscape, economic landscape, and was very
195
1 generous in his comments about my work as
2 special envoy for the Americas, which he had
3 apparently heard about when he was there.
4 That was the substance of our discussion.
5 Q What did he tell you he was
6 doing in South America?
7 A I don't know that Mr. Carville told
8 me what he was doing there. I don't recall
9 he said I'm working on a particular project
10 or anything. He had been to South America
11 and was just giving me his observations upon
12 return.
13 Q He went to Argentina?
14 A I don't know which countries he
15 visited. I don't know. He mentioned the
16 Brazil election. I recall that.
17 Q What were his observations?
18 A His observations were that it was a
19 very active political time in South America,
20 a number of presidential elections, that the
21 outcome of those elections were not certain
22 and there was some anxiety among the voters
196
1 about the future and about the course of
2 open-market reform and whether or not that
3 reform and democratic change would be
4 deepened or would it have a step taken -- a
5 step taken back.
6 Q During that conversation you
7 mentioned Ken Starr?
8 A We did not.
9 Q Have you ever discussed Ken Starr
10 with him?
11 A No.
12 Q Did you ever discuss Ken Starr with
13 anybody?
14 MR. SPAEDER: Apart from counsel?
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Apart from your counsel and me.
17 A Yes, I think I have.
18 Q Who have you discussed Ken Starr
19 with?
20 A I recall some time ago Mr. Starr's
21 being -- name raised by Mr. Gergen. We were
22 having lunch. He knew Mr. -- or knows
197
1 Mr. Starr. I recall discussing it with him.
2 Q What was discussed?
3 A Mr. Gergen had a high regard for
4 him? It was more his --
5 Q Did you express your opinion about
6 Mr. Starr?
7 A I didn't -- did not have an
8 opinion.
9 Q Have you ever expressed an opinion
10 about Mr. Starr?
11 A Other than to my attorneys and my
12 wife, I don't recall offering an opinion
13 about Mr. Starr to anyone.
14 Q Was anything discussed with
15 Mr. Carville other than his observations on
16 Latin American economics and politics?
17 A No, that was the only subject we
18 talked about.
19 Q You are aware that Mr. Carville
20 declared war on Ken Starr?
21 A Yes, I was aware of that. I read
22 about it and heard him recently in an
198
1 interview be asked about it.
2 Q You've talked to him about that,
3 have you not?
4 A I have not.
5 Q What is it your understanding that
6 Mr. Carville has done in connection with
7 Judge Starr?
8 A Mr. Klayman, I really don't know.
9 I have been involved in other matters and I
10 don't know what he's done regarding
11 Mr. Starr.
12 Q Did you ever hear of an
13 organization called the Education Information
14 Project?
15 A I believe on the interview
16 I recently heard -- I don't recall that name,
17 but I think I recall Mr. Carville or his wife
18 saying he had set up a foundation about this
19 matter. I think the interviewer asked him
20 that, or that came out in the interview.
21 Q Do you have any information as to
22 whether or not Mr. Carville gathered
199
1 information on perceived adversaries of the
2 administration?
3 A I have no idea what he does or does
4 not do.
5 Q During the time that you were in
6 the White House, your office would sometimes
7 send information to Mr. Carville?
8 A When I was Chief of Staff,
9 Mr. Carville continued to advise the
10 President more informally than formally, and
11 from time to time, certainly, we could have
12 sent some information to Mr. Carville.
13 Q What was sent to Mr. Carville?
14 A I don't recall any specific
15 information, but it's certainly possible that
16 during that period, '93, he was provided with
17 some information from the White House, and
18 perhaps from my office.
19 Q Do you know whether or not
20 Mr. Carville or any people that work for him
21 have looked into the sexual activities of Ken
22 Starr and his staff?
200
1 A I have no idea about that. I know
2 nothing about that.
3 Q Have you ever heard President
4 Clinton disavow Carville's war on Ken Starr?
5 A No, I have not.
6 Q Have you ever heard Mrs. Clinton
7 disavow Carville's war on Ken Starr?
8 A No, I have not.
9 Q Are you a friend of Skip
10 Rutherford's?
11 A I am.
12 Q Who is he?
13 A Mr. Rutherford is an advertising,
14 public relations executive in Little Rock.
15 Q How did you get to know
16 Mr. Rutherford?
17 A I first met Mr. Rutherford when he
18 worked with Senator Pryor in Arkansas and met
19 him in our church in Little Rock, Pulaski
20 Heights United Methodist Church.
21 Q Speaking of Senator Pryor, do you
22 have any involvement in the current legal
201
1 defense fund defense funds?
2 A I do not. No, I do not.
3 Q Do you know anything about it?
4 A I'm aware there was a defense fund
5 established. I don't know the current status
6 of it.
7 Q Have you been solicited by it?
8 A No, I have not.
9 Q What role, if any, did
10 Mr. Rutherford play with regard to the
11 Clinton administration? Did he have any
12 dealing with it over the last five years?
13 A Yes, he did.
14 Q What dealings were they?
15 A Mr. Rutherford was an informal
16 advisor to the administration and to me, and
17 I believe he was retained or employed under a
18 consultant agreement with the Democratic
19 National Committee.
20 Q What did he advise on?
21 A A wide range of matters. I value
22 Mr. Rutherford's judgments and opinions
202
1 highly and I think as do the President and
2 Mrs. Clinton.
3 Q Did Mr. Rutherford ever provide
4 advice with regard to the Travel Office
5 matter?
6 A Yes, he did.
7 Q What advice did he provide?
8 A I believe I asked his opinion how
9 he thought it was best for us to handle this
10 controversy, and he provided his best advice
11 and counsel in that regard.
12 Q What did he tell you?
13 A Well, Mr. Klayman, sitting here
14 today, I'm not sure I can recall the specific
15 advice. I think he favored the report. I
16 think -- I don't recall the specifics. I
17 would be speculating, reconstructing. You've
18 asked me a factual question. I just simply
19 don't remember.
20 But I remember asking him for
21 advice about the Travel Office matter.
22 Q So, in effect, the Democratic
203
1 National Committee was providing advice on
2 the Travel Office controversy?
3 A That's now how I looked at it. I
4 have worked with Mr. Rutherford, value his
5 opinion highly. He was paid by the National
6 Committee, but I viewed him as an informal
7 adviser to me and the President certainly in
8 this matter. Not as a member of the
9 Democratic National Committee.
10 Q He never told you he was providing
11 the advice in his personal capacity, did he?
12 A I'm sorry?
13 Q He never told you that he was
14 providing this advice in his personal
15 capacity, did he?
16 A I don't think he really had to,
17 Mr. Klayman. We had worked together. That's
18 certainly how I took his counsel and advice.
19 Q Rutherford knows Carville?
20 A Yes, they know each other.
21 Q How do they know each other?
22 A I don't know how they first met,
204
1 but I am aware they know each other. I just
2 don't know how they first met.
3 Q What have they done together,
4 professionally speaking?
5 A I don't know that they have done
6 anything together, professionally speaking.
7 Q Did Mr. Rutherford ever provide
8 advice with regard to the issue of the White
9 House?
10 A Let me amend that answer. When you
11 say "professionally speaking," I was taking
12 it in the context of public relations or
13 advertising.
14 Mr. Rutherford worked, I think, in
15 the final weeks or months of the 1992
16 Presidential campaign, so in that sense he
17 and Mr. Carville, I'm sure, worked together.
18 I was not a part of that campaign, but I'm
19 sure they did once he joined the campaign. I
20 think it was in the summer of '92, if I'm not
21 mistaken.
22 Q Mr. Rutherford's advice, did it
205
1 touch on the issue of whether the White House
2 should have been in contact with the FBI over
3 the White House Travel Office firings?
4 A I don't believe that matter ever
5 came up with Mr. Rutherford. His advice and
6 counsel was much broader than that. It did
7 not relate to specific issues. I don't
8 remember that issue coming up at all.
9 Q Did his advice relate to the
10 acquisition of FBI files by the White House,
11 generally speaking?
12 A I don't think I was aware that any
13 FBI files had been procured.
14 Q Have you ever heard of or met a
15 Glen Weiner?
16 A No.
17 Q Thomas Janenda?
18 A No.
19 Q A Brenda Costello?
20 A No, I don't believe I have.
21 Q During the time you were at the
22 White House, were you ever aware of a
206
1 research office that functioned under the
2 communications office?
3 A No, I was not.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a
5 five-minute break.
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
7 video record at 2:40 p.m.
8 (Recess)
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
10 record at 2:51 p.m.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
12 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
13 Exhibit 7.
14 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
15 No. 7 was marked for
16 identification.)
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q I'm showing you Exhibit 7,
19 Mr. McLarty. This is a memorandum of Special
20 Agent Sculimbrene of the FBI, and in the
21 second paragraph it states, "Bernard
22 Nussbaum, counsel to the President, advised
207
1 that he has known the appointee," meaning
2 Craig Livingstone, "for a period of time and
3 he's been employed in the new administration.
4 He had come highly recommended to him by
5 Hillary Clinton, who has known his mother for
6 a longer period of time. He was confident
7 that the appointee lives a circumspect life
8 and was not aware of any illegal drug or
9 alcohol problems. He said that the appointee
10 will work at the White House on security
11 matters. He said that in the short period of
12 time that the appointee has worked for him he
13 has been completely satisfied of his
14 performance, conduct and productivity. He
15 recommended the appointee for continued
16 access in his current capacity."
17 Does this refresh your recollection
18 as to whether or not Hillary Clinton strongly
19 recommended Craig Livingstone for the job of
20 Office of Personnel Security Director?
21 A No, it does not. I don't believe
22 I've ever seen this particular exhibit or
208
1 memorandum.
2 Q During the time that you were in
3 the White House, were you aware of any drug
4 usage?
5 A Drug usage, you mean, in the White
6 House?
7 Q Yes.
8 A No.
9 Q Were you aware of any sexual
10 activities in the White House?
11 A No.
12 Q Were you ever privy to any
13 conversations that it was important to
14 determine whether Republicans had done
15 similar things to deflect criticism of drug
16 usage and sexual activity in the White House?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A No, I'm not.
21 Q Are you are of drug usage during
22 the Bush administration in the white house?
209
1 A No, I'm not.
2 Q Did you ever have any discussions
3 with either the President or Mrs. Clinton
4 over personnel appointments for the White
5 House?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q Was that part of your duties and
8 responsibilities as Chief of Staff?
9 A Yes, it was.
10 Q Did you ever discuss the
11 appointment of Craig Livingstone to the job
12 of director of Office of Personnel Security?
13 A With the President or Mrs. Clinton?
14 Q Yes.
15 A No, I did not.
16 Q Have you ever met an Anthony
17 Marceca?
18 A No, I have not.
19 Q Mr. Nussbaum was White House
20 counsel, correct?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q He ultimately left the position of
210
1 White House counsel, correct?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q Why did he leave?
4 A Mr. Klayman, sitting here today, I
5 can't recall the specific circumstances
6 surrounding Mr. Nussbaum's decision to leave.
7 I believe there was a matter of some
8 controversy that he had been involved in that
9 had been criticized in the press and I recall
10 his leaving. But I don't recall that matter
11 or those circumstances.
12 Q Did the circumstances involve the
13 Treasury Department and the RTC?
14 A Mr. Klayman, without really
15 refreshing my memory and reviewing that
16 matter -- it's been a number of years ago --
17 I just sitting here can't recall those
18 circumstances.
19 Q Did the circumstances involve
20 issues involving Vince Foster?
21 A Mr. Nussbaum, as I remember, left
22 some time well after Mr. Foster's suicide.
211
1 Q But there was some controversy over
2 documents in Mr. Foster's office after he
3 died?
4 A There was.
5 Q Does that refresh your recollection
6 as to why Mr. Nussbaum left?
7 A I don't remember relating
8 Mr. Foster's -- the handling of Mr. Foster's
9 documents or office being directly involved
10 in Mr. Nussbaum's decision to resign.
11 Q During your period in the White
12 House, did you ever visit the White House
13 counsel's office?
14 A I did.
15 Q Did you ever visit the office of
16 Vince Foster?
17 A I did.
18 Q On a number of occasions?
19 A I visited Mr. Foster in his office,
20 you know, several times during the course of
21 the months we worked together, so yes. The
22 answer is yes.
212
1 Q Saw FBI files in his office?
2 A I did not.
3 Q During your period in the White
4 House, did you ever visit the office of
5 William Kennedy?
6 A No, I did not.
7 Q Did you know William Kennedy?
8 A I did know him and do know him.
9 Q Do you know whether or not William
10 Kennedy had FBI files in his office?
11 A No, I do not.
12 Q You don't know one way or the
13 other?
14 A I do not know.
15 Q Do you know who the secretary of
16 Mr. Nussbaum was when he worked in the White
17 House?
18 A Sitting here today, I can't recall
19 who his secretary was.
20 Q Did you ever meet a Linda Tripp?
21 A I did.
22 Q When did you meet Linda Tripp?
213
1 A She was the in the counsel's office
2 when I first joined the White House.
3 Q How did you come to meet her?
4 A I met most of the people that
5 worked in the west wing and, to the extent I
6 could, in the White House and the
7 administration. And I believe I met her in
8 the ordinary course of business and
9 introducing myself, or asking to be
10 introduced to our various colleagues.
11 Q When did you first meet her?
12 A I don't recall. Sometime after we
13 came to the White House.
14 Q Did you understand what her
15 position was in the White House when you met
16 her?
17 A I understood she was administrative
18 secretary in the White House counsel's
19 office.
20 Q To Mr. Nussbaum?
21 A No, I don't think that I remember
22 Ms. Tripp as Ms. Nussbaum's secretary.
214
1 Perhaps she was, but I recall her being in
2 the counselor's office, and I don't think I
3 made a determination whether she worked for
4 Mr. Nussbaum or Mr. Foster or the office in
5 general.
6 Q Did you at some point learn what
7 her duties and responsibilities were?
8 A No, not other than what I've just
9 testified, that she was an administrative
10 secretary, executive secretary in the
11 counselor's office.
12 Q Do you know of any instances when
13 Ms. Tripp failed to tell the truth during her
14 period in the White House?
15 A No, I do not.
16 Q Do you have any reason to believe
17 she's dishonest?
18 A I have no reason to believe that
19 one way or the other.
20 Q Who was the secretary of Vince
21 Foster or administrative assistant, whatever
22 you want to call them?
215
1 A I don't remember sitting here
2 today.
3 Q Does the name Deborah Gorham ring a
4 bell?
5 A It does not, Mr. Klayman.
6 Q Did you ever meet anybody by the
7 name of Deborah in the White House counsel's
8 office?
9 A It's possible that I met
10 Ms. Gorham, but I just don't recall it -- her
11 or that name sitting here today. I met a lot
12 of people, obviously, during that first
13 several months we were in the White House.
14 Q You've heard it said by George
15 Stephanopoulos that Vince Foster hired Craig
16 Livingstone?
17 A No, I have not heard
18 Mr. Stephanopoulos say that.
19 Q Do you remember when Vince Foster
20 died?
21 A I do.
22 Q Where were you at the time?
216
1 A I was in the residence area of the
2 White House.
3 Q Who were you with?
4 A I was with several of my White
5 House colleagues watching an interview the
6 President was conducting, as I remember it,
7 with Larry King.
8 Q Who were those colleagues?
9 A Mr. Stephanopoulos was there,
10 Ms. Meyers, I believe. Ms. Seidman. May
11 have been -- may have been others. I
12 remember those three.
13 Q What was Ms. Seidman's first name?
14 A Ricky.
15 Q What was her position?
16 A She was in the communications area.
17 Q How was the news broken that
18 Mr. Foster had died?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
20 Relevancy.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm laying a
22 foundation.
217
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You can respond.
3 A I believe Mr. Burton, who was on my
4 staff, came to that area and told me there
5 had been an initial report that Mr. Foster
6 had taken his life.
7 Strike that. I think that
8 Mr. Foster's body had been found and that it
9 was apparent suicide, something like that.
10 Q What time of the day was that?
11 A It was the evening, Mr. Klayman,
12 around 8:00 o'clock or 9:00 o'clock,
13 somewhere in there. I don't know.
14 Q What was Mr. Burton's first fame?
15 A Bill.
16 Q Is he still in the White House?
17 A He's not.
18 Q Where is he today?
19 A He's at Jones, Day.
20 Q Did Mr. Burton tell you how it had
21 been determined it was a suicide?
22 A He did not.
218
1 Q Now, what ensued after that, if
2 anything, among the people in that room after
3 getting that news?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: I renew my relevancy
5 objection.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 A Mr. Klayman, as I remember it --
9 it's, again, been a number of years ago.
10 Very tragic event. There was some doubt that
11 the body that had been discovered was not
12 Mr. Foster's. It had not been confirmed to
13 be his -- to be him. So there was some hope
14 that there might be some mistake here.
15 So I -- I believe Mr. Burton told
16 me that there were efforts to identify the
17 body. I asked him to handle those type of
18 matters. He was physically in my office.
19 Then I think I turned to Mr. Stephanopoulos
20 and Ms. Meyers. I believe also Mr. Gearan
21 was there, Mark Gearan -- and told them of
22 what I had just learned. I believe there was
219
1 a discussion of whether or not we should
2 interrupt the interview the President was
3 doing with Larry King. I believe it was a
4 live interview, but I'm not certain of that.
5 It may have been taped.
6 I believe the executive producer,
7 Ms. Walker, either we conferred with or she
8 asked me what was -- what was going on, and
9 we determined not to interrupt the interview.
10 I believe at some point I called
11 Mrs. Clinton, who, I believe, was in Arkansas
12 visiting her father, if I'm not mistaken, who
13 was ill -- who had been sick. I believe
14 that's correct. She was out of town. I
15 believe I called Mr. Hubbell to see if he
16 knew anything about Mr. Foster's whereabouts,
17 and I believe I asked him or perhaps he
18 volunteered to go to the Foster home. I
19 think that's a reasonably accurate and
20 sequential response to what did we do.
21 Q Who was it that informed the
22 President after he finished his interview?
220
1 A I did.
2 Q What did the President say?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
4 Relevancy.
5 THE WITNESS: I had asked the
6 President to not extend the interview as
7 Mr. King had asked that he do, and that we go
8 upstairs. I wanted to discuss a matter with
9 him of importance.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q This was a taped interview?
12 A I don't know whether it was taped
13 or live, Mr. Klayman. I don't know. I
14 believe it was live, but I'm not sure.
15 We walked upstairs or -- strike --
16 strike it. We went -- took the elevator
17 upstairs and we sat down. Of course, the
18 President wanted to know what I wanted to --
19 to tell him. I told him that it did appear
20 that Vince had taken his life.
21 Q What did the President say?
22 A He looked astonished, shocked and I
221
1 believe he said something to the effect, "Oh,
2 no."
3 I can't recall whether we discussed
4 the matter any further at that point, because
5 I don't think I had any more facts to relate,
6 and then he said, "I want to call Hillary."
7 He stepped in the bedroom and called her.
8 Q But you had already informed
9 Hillary?
10 A That's correct, and I may have
11 mentioned that to him.
12 Q What knowledge do you have of
13 efforts which occurred after that point in
14 time to secure documentation and things in
15 Mr. Foster's office?
16 A Repeat your question, please,
17 Mr. Klayman.
18 Q Was there an effort made? Was
19 there discussions that were undertaken
20 concerning securing documents and other
21 things in Mr. Foster's office after you
22 learned of the suicide?
222
1 A I don't know that firsthand.
2 Q Who do you know played a role in
3 that?
4 A I know Mr. Nussbaum did, and I
5 don't know who else did. I was not
6 physically at the White House during that
7 period.
8 Q How do you know Mr. Nussbaum did?
9 A I certainly became aware that he
10 did shortly after the suicide. I think -- I
11 think I had asked Mr. Burton, who was in my
12 office, to inform the proper people about
13 this, in all likelihood, tragedy that
14 occurred, and I believe I asked him to call
15 Mr. Nussbaum to come to the White House.
16 I left with the President to go to
17 the Foster home shortly after the interview,
18 and I notified the President, and that's
19 where my efforts and attention was focused.
20 So I either had asked Mr. Burton to call
21 Mr. Nussbaum, or I became aware through other
22 people that Mr. Nussbaum had been notified,
223
1 and I was under the impression, and correctly
2 so, that he was physically at the White
3 House.
4 Q Now, Mr. Livingstone had access to
5 Mr. Foster's office after he died, correct?
6 A I don't know whether he did or not.
7 Q Who had access to that office after
8 Foster died?
9 A I don't know of anyone who had
10 access. I worked under the premise that
11 Mr. Nussbaum was handling those affairs, to
12 the extent I focused on it, and that he and
13 Mr. Burton would make those decisions. I was
14 physically not there until much later in the
15 evening, when we returned to the Foster home.
16 Q After Mr. Foster died, did you
17 review any materials in his office?
18 A I did not.
19 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
20 A No, I don't know that firsthand.
21 Q Do you know secondhand?
22 A It is my understanding, and I
224
1 suppose I have either -- it's been told to me
2 or reported to me or I've read it in the
3 press, that Mr. Nussbaum, I believe, handled
4 those affairs. Whether he reviewed documents
5 at that time I don't know, Mr. Klayman.
6 Q Do you know what, if anything, was
7 taken out of Mr. Foster's office after he
8 died?
9 A To the best of my knowledge and
10 understanding, nothing was removed.
11 Q Do you know whether an inventory
12 was made of what was in his office after he
13 died?
14 A It is my understanding that
15 Mr. Nussbaum -- his associates made some type
16 of in inventory. When they made that
17 Mr. Klayman, I don't know.
18 Q Was Mr. Foster involved in any
19 personnel decisions when he worked at the
20 White House?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What personnel decisions was he
225
1 involved in?
2 A It was my understanding that he had
3 considerable input into personnel decisions
4 in the counselor's office, as deputy White
5 House counsel. And from time to time, like
6 other senior officials, I think he had some
7 input into other positions or recommending
8 certain people. I think from time to time, I
9 might have asked him his opinion about
10 someone outside of the counselor's office.
11 Q As part of his duties and
12 responsibilities, he would review FBI reports
13 on perspective candidates?
14 A I don't know how that was handled
15 in the counselor's office, Mr. Klayman,
16 whether Mr. Foster did that or someone else
17 in the counsel's office. I just don't know
18 how that activity was handled in that level
19 of detail.
20 Q When you worked as White House
21 Chief of Staff, did you yourself use a
22 computer?
226
1 A I can answer with certainty, no.
2 Q When you would prepare a letter,
3 how would you prepare it?
4 A I normally would dictate it.
5 Q Use dictation equipment?
6 A I was very fortunate that
7 Ms. McHugh actually took dictation, which is
8 lone star, and I would normally dictate my
9 letters.
10 Q But did you have dictation
11 equipment?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
14 A Now, let me -- let me strike that.
15 In the beginning I may have had some
16 dictation equipment. I just can't recall,
17 Mr. Klayman. Ms. McHugh didn't come to work
18 with me until probably six months after I had
19 been in the White House.
20 Q So you did have dictation equipment
21 at some point?
22 A I don't know. I don't recall
227
1 having any dictation equipment there sitting
2 here today. I had a correspondence person,
3 Lynda Rathbone, who composed a lot of my
4 letters.
5 Q Now, during the period that you
6 were working in the White House, who was the
7 President's secretary?
8 A Ms. Curry and Ms. Hernreich both
9 had immediate administrative support to the
10 President.
11 Q Now, prior to coming to the White
12 House, you had had experience in working with
13 then Governor Clinton?
14 A From time to time, as a member of
15 the private sector, I worked with Governor
16 Clinton on various public/private
17 partnerships. I never worked for his
18 administration.
19 Q As White House Chief of Staff, you
20 had access to the President on a routine
21 basis, correct?
22 A I did.
228
1 Q You observed him dictating letters
2 to people?
3 A No.
4 Q How did the President prepare
5 letters when you worked in the White House?
6 A I'm not sure I can provide you
7 exact detail. There was a correspondence
8 unit that handled the bulk of the
9 correspondence, which was quite heavy
10 particularly in the first year. The staff
11 secretary's office, I believe, coordinated
12 that. Then on policy responses, Mr. Klayman,
13 normally there would be a draft letter
14 submitted to the President, perhaps more than
15 one, but certainly a draft letter, by the
16 particular policy area; National Security
17 Council, National Economic Council, Domestic
18 Council. Then if it were a member of
19 Congress, normally the Legislative Affairs
20 Office would submit a proposed response or
21 letter to a member of Congress.
22 Q Well, during the course of your
229
1 duties and responsibilities at the White
2 House, you had meetings with the President,
3 correct?
4 A I did.
5 Q You did observe the President
6 taking notes at some of those meetings,
7 correct?
8 A From time to time. Not often, but
9 from time to time.
10 Q How did he store those notes?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Did he give them to Ms. Hernreich
13 or Ms. Curry for filing?
14 A Mr. Klayman, I don't know about
15 that level of administrative detail of how
16 the President kept his files or notes or
17 wrote his personal letters. I just simply
18 don't know.
19 Q Did you ever see him dictate a
20 letter or piece of correspondence in your
21 presence?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
230
1 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall
2 the President dictating a letter either on a
3 dictaphone or to a secretary during my
4 presence, no.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Were you ever, for instance, in a
7 meeting with the President where he called in
8 Ms. Curry or Ms. Hernreich and said, I want
9 you to take this down, I want to write this
10 letter, I want to make this notation, I want
11 to write this memorandum, something to effect
12 that?
13 A I never heard him call in Ms. Curry
14 or Ms. Hernreich or any secretary over at
15 administrative support to dictate a letter.
16 There have been a couple of occasions where
17 he has called Ms. Hernreich in to schedule in
18 a meeting or to have someone attend a certain
19 meeting, but not a particular letter or
20 correspondence. I just simply am not
21 familiar with how he does that. I'm aware he
22 writes some personal handwritten notes
231
1 because I do receive -- directly receive
2 copies of those.
3 Q You are aware that the President
4 keeps a desk calendar on his on his desk?
5 A I'm aware there's a presidential
6 schedule. I don't know about a desk
7 calendar.
8 Q Is the calendar computerized or in
9 a book?
10 A The schedule that I'm familiar with
11 is in a -- in a briefing book. Now, how the
12 President keeps his schedule, I honestly
13 don't know.
14 Q Who prepares that briefing brook?
15 A The scheduling office prepares the
16 schedule, and I don't know who specifically
17 is responsible for the briefing book. I
18 think you go through the staff secretary's
19 office and I think -- now that I reflect on
20 it -- a large number of people have input.
21 It depends on what he's doing.
22 Q Does the President know how to
232
1 type?
2 MS. ZIEGLER: Mr. Klayman, what is
3 the relevance of this line of questioning?
4 MR. KLAYMAN: You know what it is.
5 You've already --
6 MS. ZIEGLER: No, I don't.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: That's all right.
8 Put your objection on the record. That's
9 okay.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't think I've
11 ever seen the President type, so I don't know
12 whether he knows how or not.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Does the President have a computer
15 in his office?
16 A He does not.
17 Q Does he ever use a laptop computer?
18 A I've never seen him use a laptop
19 computer, and to my knowledge, he does not.
20 Q Have you ever seen Mrs. Clinton
21 type?
22 A I think I have seen Mrs. Clinton
233
1 use a laptop computer, but I am not certain
2 of that, Mr. Klayman. When you -- when you
3 say "type," I assume it would include a
4 laptop.
5 Q Where do you think you saw her use
6 that laptop computer?
7 A I think perhaps I have seen it in
8 her office, but I'm not certain of that.
9 Q What office was that?
10 A That was her office in the west
11 wing.
12 Q Do you know what the number of that
13 office is?
14 A No, I do not.
15 Q You walked in and she was typing on
16 the computer?
17 A I think you asked me had I ever
18 seen Ms. Clinton use a laptop computer.
19 Q Right.
20 A I think I have a recollection of
21 her using a laptop computer. I believe it
22 was in her office.
234
1 Q Have you ever seen her use a
2 desktop computer?
3 A No.
4 Q Have you ever seen her dictate a
5 letter or any other kind of document to her
6 secretary or administrative assistant?
7 A I have not.
8 Q Have you ever seen her use
9 dictaphone equipment?
10 A No, I have not.
11 Q Have you ever seen the President
12 use dictaphone equipment?
13 A No, I have not.
14 Q Did he have any?
15 A I don't recall any dictaphone
16 equipment being in his office during the time
17 I was Chief of Staff or until I left the
18 White House.
19 Q When you became White House Chief
20 of Staff, did you get a briefing on White
21 House security systems?
22 A Would you define "security
235
1 systems," Mr. Klayman?
2 Q Did you get any kind of briefings
3 on the way the White House surveys, White
4 House or others, survey what is going on in
5 the premises?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
7 foundation.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember
9 getting that type of briefing in terms of
10 physical -- physical facilities, what I
11 believe you're referring to.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q What kind of briefing did you get?
14 A I recall getting a security
15 briefing from the military on a -- how to
16 react to any type of terrorist or nuclear
17 attack and what we would do in that state of
18 emergency.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q When you worked in the White House,
21 was it your understanding that there was
22 video surveillance of certain parts of the
236
1 premises?
2 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not -- I'm not
3 sure I ever paid a great deal of attention to
4 that type of matter. To the extent I focused
5 on it, I guess, at the gates and so forth, I
6 knew there was some kind of electronic
7 equipment there, certainly metal
8 detector-type apparatus, and perhaps some
9 video equipment.
10 In the White House, I think -- I
11 have a recollection or memory of, you know,
12 cameras like in banks and so forth, but I
13 never really paid a lot of attention or
14 studied that particular aspect.
15 Q Was it your understanding that
16 there is video surveillance inside of the
17 Oval Office?
18 A I don't think I know whether there
19 is or not.
20 Q Did you always assume there was?
21 A No, no, I really never felt there
22 was surveillance inside the Oval Office to
237
1 the extent I thought about it.
2 Q Was it your impression that there
3 was audio surveillance in the Oval Office?
4 A No.
5 Q Was it your understanding there was
6 video or audio surveillance in certain parts
7 of the White House and west and east wings?
8 A No, not audio. Again, I assumed
9 the offices were private, like in a corporate
10 setting, and that the only video
11 surveillance, to use your term, would be more
12 much more like a bank -- financial
13 institution's video that would be in the
14 halls or at the entrance.
15 Q Entrance of what?
16 A Entrance of the White House, the
17 gates, the various -- which I've already
18 testified about.
19 Q So it was your understanding that
20 video surveillance was being undertaken in
21 the hallways of the White House and in its
22 various wings?
238
1 MR. SPAEDER: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: I don't think I said
3 that, Mr. Klayman. If I did, I didn't mean
4 to say it that precisely. What I tried to
5 testify is, I really didn't know what the
6 surveillance was. I think I remember seeing
7 cameras and, I guess, to the extent that
8 that's surveillance in the hall, that's
9 probably what I concluded to the extent I
10 thought about it.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Was it your understanding that
13 sound was also monitored in the hallways?
14 A No, I never thought any audio was
15 monitored unless it was a formal, you know,
16 camera -- cameras in the room or, you know,
17 press-type briefing or where you had actual
18 physical cameras there, filming a setting.
19 Q Did anyone in the White House ever
20 mention that maybe you shouldn't talk in
21 common areas because it's being recorded?
22 A I don't ever recall anyone saying
239
1 that.
2 Q Was that Mrs. Clinton's view?
3 A I don't ever remember Mrs. Clinton
4 saying anything to me or anybody else about
5 that.
6 Q Have you ever heard reports that
7 you weren't allowed to talk to Mrs. Clinton
8 in the hallway?
9 A No, I've never heard reports like
10 that.
11 Q She instructed people not to talk
12 to her in the hallways?
13 A I've never heard any reports like
14 that.
15 Q Now, did you assume that there was
16 video surveillance throughout the White
17 House?
18 A No, I didn't --
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
20 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't make
21 that assumption.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
240
1 Q Did you ever kind of say to
2 yourself, "Well, they have video surveillance
3 at 7-Eleven stores, why wouldn't they have it
4 in the White House?" Anything like that?
5 A We had a lot to do that first year,
6 Mr. Klayman, and I just didn't focus on this
7 particular matter. I left that to others and
8 felt it was being handled very professionally
9 and capable. I felt secure in the White
10 House.
11 Q Would it surprise you if you ever
12 learned that there was video surveillance
13 throughout the White House?
14 A No, it would not.
15 Q Why is that?
16 A Because I think I've already
17 testified I thought I had just in passing
18 seen some cameras, and many companies and
19 financial institutions and other types of
20 settings of that nature have some type of
21 video surveillance, to use your term. So it
22 would not surprise me.
241
1 Q During the time you were at the
2 White House, did anyone say to "You don't
3 talk about this here," anything to that
4 effect?
5 A No. I had a lot of hallway
6 meetings.
7 Q Was it your understanding that
8 White House telephones were tapped?
9 A No, I never felt they were tapped.
10 Q Mr. Ickes said that he thought they
11 were tapped. Did he ever discuss that with
12 you?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. That
14 mischaracterizes.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't recall
16 Mr. Ickes ever telling me he thought the
17 phones were tapped. I don't --
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Did anyone ever tell you that?
20 A I don't know whether he said that
21 or not.
22 Q Did anyone ever tell you that?
242
1 A No, I don't recall anyone telling
2 me that they felt the White House phones were
3 tapped.
4 Q Have you ever had experience with
5 wire tapping in any of your various
6 professional positions?
7 A I hope not.
8 Q Well, some of your employees at
9 ARKLA were tapped, weren't they, by the FBI?
10 A I certainly had nothing to do with
11 that.
12 Q But you're aware of that, aren't
13 you?
14 A I'm aware that that apparently was
15 done. I was not aware of it at the time.
16 Q Did you ever see the transcriptions
17 of the conversations that were tapped?
18 A I don't believe I've seen the
19 actual transcriptions, no.
20 Q Are you aware of what the FBI was
21 tapping for? What were the suspicions of the
22 FBI at the time?
243
1 MS. ZIEGLER: Object to the
2 relevance.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q You can respond.
5 A I think I have learned they were
6 about certain campaign contributions, and
7 whether or not they were legal.
8 Q Were there allegations of bribery
9 involved?
10 A There were public accounts of that
11 fact.
12 Q Did these taps occur before you
13 became associated with the White House?
14 A I don't know when they occurred,
15 Mr. Klayman. I didn't know they had taken
16 place, and I don't know when they were
17 undertaken.
18 Q Did you or anyone else at the White
19 House ever record any telephone conversations
20 incoming or outgoing?
21 A I certainly did not. I'm not aware
22 of anyone else that did, either other than
244
1 voice mail or something like that.
2 Q Mr. Nussbaum, did you ever see him
3 using a laptop computer?
4 A No, I don't ever remember Bernie
5 using a laptop computer.
6 Q Did you ever see anyone in the
7 White House counsel's office using a laptop?
8 A Anyone in the White House counsel's
9 office? Mr. Klayman, sitting here today, I
10 don't specifically recall anyone in the
11 counsel's office using a laptop computer.
12 There were a number of people in the
13 administration who were computer-efficient,
14 but I just don't remember anyone specifically
15 in the counsel's office using a laptop
16 computer. I'm sure many did.
17 Q Do you know whether Chelsea Clinton
18 had a laptop computer?
19 A I do not.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: I do not know.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: What's the relevancy
245
1 of Chelsea Clinton?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Maybe Mrs. Clinton
3 used it, since you asked. What's the
4 relevancy of your bizarre objection?
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Did Mrs. Clinton recommend Bernie
7 Nussbaum to the position of White House
8 counsel?
9 A She had a favorable view toward
10 Mr. Nussbaum and recommended that he be
11 considered, yes.
12 Q Where did that favorable view come
13 from, to the best of your knowledge?
14 A She knew Mr. Nussbaum and expressed
15 a favorable view of him to me, and I think I
16 have read and she may have said, I believe,
17 they worked together on Watergate and had
18 stayed in touch, if I'm not mistaken. But
19 they knew each other.
20 Q She was the principal reason why
21 Mr. Nussbaum was hired, correct?
22 A No. That's not, I don't believe, a
246
1 fair characterization, Mr. Klayman.
2 Q Well, what would be fair?
3 A I think what would be fair is she
4 had a favorable few of him, as she did a
5 number of other people in the administration,
6 and she made those views known to me and
7 others. The President interviewed
8 Mr. Nussbaum, also had a high opinion of him,
9 and I interviewed him. I think had I not had
10 a favorable view of Mr. Nussbaum, I don't
11 believe we would have hired him.
12 Q Mr. Nussbaum ultimately was fired,
13 wasn't he?
14 A He resigned.
15 Q You strongly encouraged him to
16 resign, I take it?
17 A I think that's a fair assessment.
18 Q What were the reasons why you
19 strongly encouraged him to resign?
20 A I believe there had reached a
21 point -- again, it's been a number of years
22 ago -- that he was less effective as White
247
1 House counsel, and I thought the White House
2 would function at that point in time in a
3 more effective manner with another White
4 House counsel.
5 Q Why in your opinion was he less
6 than effective?
7 A There had been a number of
8 incidents that he had been criticized in the
9 way he had handled them, either properly or
10 improperly, and I felt we needed perhaps
11 someone that had more experience in
12 government and in Washington.
13 Q In what ways was he criticized?
14 A I think the political sensitivity,
15 the difference between a corporate lawyer,
16 which he had been very successful, versus a
17 White House lawyer, which is -- obviously has
18 a different set of requirements and skills.
19 Q 0ne of the criteria of the
20 criticism was that he had withheld
21 information from various congressional
22 committees, correct?
248
1 A I don't recall that being a
2 criteria, Mr. Klayman.
3 Q Was he encouraged to resign because
4 of his role after the death of Vince Foster?
5 A There was certainly some criticism
6 of that. But, again, I don't think that was
7 a specific element in his being asked to
8 resign or his really making a decision to
9 resign, is a more accurate way to put it. I
10 think it was the overall lack of political
11 sensitivity, but not over the handling of any
12 one matter, and I believe there was a current
13 matter, if I'm not mistaken. It may have had
14 to do with Treasury when you raised it, I
15 just don't remember.
16 But it was a more general
17 assessment than some of the specific elements
18 you're trying to -- to ask me about or
19 conclude.
20 Q Are you aware of a notebook which
21 contained documents showing the First Lady's
22 involvement in the firings of the Travel
249
1 Office?
2 A Of a notebook?
3 Q Yeah, that contained documents
4 about her involvement in firings.
5 A No, I don't believe I'm aware of a
6 notebook in that regard.
7 Q Did this come out of Vince Foster's
8 office? Does that refresh your recollection?
9 A No, it does not.
10 Q When you were in the White House
11 Chief of Staff's office, who did your filing
12 for you?
13 A My immediate office staff, my
14 executive secretary and others that worked in
15 my immediate office.
16 Q Who were they?
17 A Well, I have had several people
18 over that periods of 18 months.
19 Q Tell us who they were.
20 A To the best of my recall I will.
21 Sarah Johnson, I believe, was my first
22 executive secretary. M. McHugh followed her.
250
1 Marilyn Yaeger was involved in our initial
2 efforts in the White House.
3 Q Where is Ms. Yaeger today?
4 A I believe she is working for a
5 hospital organization in Nashville,
6 Tennessee, Mr. Klayman, if I'm not mistaken.
7 Q Do you know the name of it?
8 A I can't recall it right now. Bill
9 Burton I've already mentioned on several
10 occasions during our exchanges.
11 Q Who else?
12 A Mr. Toback I already mentioned.
13 Jeannine Stanzionie was my scheduler when we
14 first began. Molly Varney was later my
15 scheduler and Ana Duque, D-u-q-u-e, was my
16 scheduler.
17 Q Where are these people located
18 today?
19 A Ms. Varney is at HHA, Ana Duque is
20 in graduate school at the University of South
21 Carolina. I've already, I think, responded
22 to Mr. Toback, Mr. Burton, and Ms. Yaeger. I
251
1 think Ms. Johnson moved to Senator Baucus's
2 office on The Hill. Ms. McHugh is the
3 Vice-President's secretary. Ms. Stanzionie,
4 I believe, opened a small business here in
5 Washington. I believe that was all of them.
6 Q Now, which of these individuals
7 kept files for you, made files, put documents
8 in files?
9 A All of them in some fashion would
10 keep some files or make files. My scheduler
11 would keep scheduling files, scheduling
12 requests. Ms. Johnson or Ms. McHugh would
13 keep the general correspondence file. I've
14 already Lynda Rathbone earlier, who worked
15 with me when I was Chief of Staff, in the
16 correspondence side. She would keep certain
17 files.
18 Mr. Burton, Mr. Toback, Ms. Yaeger
19 would have more broader policy matters or
20 other matters of that type as staff director.
21 So they had various files.
22 Q Of the files that were kept, some
252
1 were kept by names of the individuals?
2 A I don't think we had a specific,
3 you know, system of filing. Most of it would
4 be by subject matter, and certainly there
5 could be certain names of individuals
6 by subject matter, whether it be a
7 congressman, senator, whomever, cabinet
8 member.
9 Q Was there a file on Newt Gingrich,
10 for instance?
11 A I don't recall keeping a file on
12 Congressman Gingrich or Speaker Gingrich.
13 Q File on Trent Lott?
14 A I have known Trent favorably for a
15 number of years. No.
16 Q Which congressmen and senators did
17 you have files on?
18 A I don't know that I did have them
19 by specific reference. If I had a lot of
20 correspondence on a particular matter, I
21 might have asked to set up a file in the
22 interim, if we were dealing with a particular
253
1 senator or congressman, Republican or
2 Democrat, on a particular matter. I just
3 simply -- we didn't have a system. Either
4 Ms. McHugh or others would make that
5 decision, or I would say, "I'm going to
6 collect information about NAFTA. Make a
7 NAFTA file." I mean, it was no particular
8 way we did it, Mr. Klayman.
9 Q I take it your office staff would
10 keep an inventory of the files, though?
11 A Not as -- not as quite as detailed
12 as I would have liked, perhaps, in terms of
13 the table of contents, for lack of a better
14 word, or inventory. But Ms. McHugh was
15 superb about being able to retrieve a file or
16 information I asked about.
17 Q She was a very organized person?
18 A She was a very capable
19 administrative assistant.
20 Q Had she had prior experience in
21 running an office or working with
22 senior-level people?
254
1 A She had.
2 Q I take it from time to time,
3 materials from these files would be sent to
4 others outside of the White House?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 A Materials from the files or --
9 Q Yes.
10 A Oh, from time to time, I'm sure
11 that was the case. Outside of the White
12 House?
13 Q Right.
14 A It would be less of a case outside
15 of the White House, but I think from time to
16 time, I probably sent something from the file
17 to some third party.
18 Q Did you ever send anything from
19 those files to members of the media?
20 A I didn't have a lot of
21 correspondence with the media. Perhaps it's
22 possible I did, Mr. Klayman. I don't recall
255
1 any sitting here today.
2 Q Being that you were organized in
3 that office when documents were sent out, was
4 there a fax log? If you faxed them, would
5 you keep a record?
6 A I don't -- I don't think I
7 concluded we were perfectly organized. I
8 think I concluded Ms. McHugh was a very able
9 administrative assistant. I don't believe we
10 kept logs in the way you're suggesting.
11 Q But if a document was sent out,
12 there was a record kept that it was sent out?
13 Some kind of record?
14 A Probably. It depended on what kind
15 of document or note was sent with it. If it
16 were a formal letter, there probably was a
17 record. If it was just a handwritten note,
18 there might not have been. I really left
19 that up to others. I didn't give any
20 specific direction on any occasions about
21 whether to retain a copy or not.
22 Q Did the office have a mail log when
256
1 you mailed stuff?
2 A I don't believe we did,
3 Mr. Klayman. I don't think we had a log
4 system in the way you're discussing it. It
5 seemed to work satisfactorily, and
6 particularly after I was Chief of Staff, that
7 we were able to respond appropriately and so
8 forth. But I don't think we had a log system
9 like you're discussing.
10 Q During your time in the White
11 House, did you ever have contact with Sidney
12 Blumenthal?
13 A Yes.
14 Q When did you have contact with
15 Mr. Blumenthal?
16 A I met Mr. Blumenthal before he was
17 a member of the White House. And once he
18 joined the White House, I would see him on
19 occasion in the White House, and he -- I
20 worked with him, or he worked with us on
21 press freedoms regarding the Summit of the
22 Americas. He took an interest in that and
257
1 made a -- made a positive contribution in
2 that regard.
3 Q How did you meet Mr. Blumenthal
4 before he came to the White House?
5 A I believe I met Mr. Blumenthal at a
6 social occasion for the first time.
7 Q Where was that?
8 A I believe it was in Mr. Cutler's
9 home.
10 Q What was the nature of the social
11 occasion?
12 A It was a Sunday night dinner party.
13 Q Who else was there?
14 A A number of people there.
15 Q That you can remember?
16 A Oh, that's been a number of years
17 ago, and there were other occasions of that
18 type.
19 I -- Mr. Klayman, without thinking
20 about it, I'm not sure I can name --
21 Q Who is it that brought
22 Mr. Blumenthal to the White House? Who was
258
1 responsible for his hiring, if anyone?
2 A I don't know who made that
3 decision. I was not involved in that
4 decision.
5 Q What was Mr. Blumenthal hired at
6 the White House to do?
7 A I was aware he was involved in
8 communications and perhaps doing some of the
9 speechwriting for the President. But I'm not
10 aware of his specific responsibilities,
11 Mr. Klayman.
12 Q Was Mr. Blumenthal recommended by
13 Mr. Kennedy?
14 A By Mr. --
15 Q William Kennedy.
16 A I have no knowledge of that. I
17 don't even know whether they know each other.
18 Q During the time you were at the
19 White House and Mr. Blumenthal was at the
20 White House, other than the Summit of the
21 Americas, did you ever talk to him about any
22 Clinton controversies?
259
1 A Yes.
2 Q What did you talk to him about?
3 What and when?
4 A As I remember it, I believe I have
5 made a comment to him after one of his
6 depositions that was, of course, a public --
7 you know, a press -- reported by the press.
8 "It appears your deposition went well," or
9 "Your remarks I heard last night on T.V. were
10 well spoken," something of that nature.
11 When he traveled with us to Puerto
12 Rico to make a speech to the Inner-American
13 Press Association, I believe during the
14 course of that trip he commented that --
15 about some of these matters, not in detail,
16 but in the end, he thought the President
17 would be just fine. Something of that
18 nature. Those are my words, not his.
19 Q Mr. Blumenthal, he collected
20 information on people, didn't he, when he was
21 at the White House?
22 A I don't know.
260
1 Q In fact, as part of his duties and
2 responsibilities, he would communicate with
3 the media from time to time?
4 A I've already testified,
5 Mr. Klayman, I don't know what his
6 responsibilities were or are at the White
7 House.
8 Q Did you ever discuss Judge Kenneth
9 Starr with Mr. Blumenthal?
10 A I don't recall Judge Starr's name
11 arising in the one conversation I'm referring
12 to when we traveled together to Puerto Rico.
13 I don't believe Judge Starr's name came up in
14 that conversation. It was a broader
15 conversation than that.
16 Q Did you ever discuss a Richard
17 Scaife with anyone?
18 A I don't recall discussing
19 Mr. Scaife with anyone, no.
20 Q Did you ever discuss Congressman
21 Dan Burton with anyone at the White House?
22 A I think I have asked or had some
261
1 exchange with the White House counsel's
2 office about the Burton committee and when
3 certain matters might be scheduled.
4 Something of that nature. I don't recall
5 discussing Congressman Burton per se.
6 Q Have you ever discussed Congressman
7 Bob Barr?
8 A No, I don't believe I have.
9 Q Kathleen Willey? Kathleen Willey?
10 A With anyone at the White House?
11 Q Yeah, or anybody else.
12 A No. The only comment about
13 Ms. Willey -- I don't know Ms. Willey. After
14 her 60 Minutes interview, I believe the
15 President commented to me that he thought a
16 mutual friend had made a remark about her
17 credibility was not that high in Richmond. I
18 didn't know the mutual friend. He thought I
19 did.
20 That's, I believe, the only time
21 her name had come up.
22 Q In what context did that come up?
262
1 A I saw the President, and I can't
2 recall whether I asked "How are you doing" or
3 he said "I'm doing fine" or something. It
4 was in that context.
5 Q Did you ask the President why he
6 was even remarking about her credibility?
7 A I did not.
8 Q Did you find that strange?
9 A I really didn't. It was a very --
10 you know, high-profile matter at the time.
11 It was a day or two after the interview.
12 Q Who is the mutual friend?
13 A I don't recall his name. I didn't
14 know him. I think the President thought I
15 did know him, and I just don't -- I don't
16 remember who it was. I didn't know the
17 person.
18 Q Have you ever seen letters written
19 by Kathleen Willey to the President?
20 A Only in the press, as they have
21 been printed in the press.
22 Q Do you know of anyone who played a
263
1 role of releasing those letters in the White
2 House?
3 A No, I do not.
4 Q Is that mutual friend that you just
5 mentioned Nate Landau?
6 A No, it was not Mr. Landau. I met
7 him. I don't know, but I met him. It was
8 not him. It was a business person --
9 business person. I just don't remember who
10 he was and didn't know him.
11 Q Have you ever discussed Paula Jones
12 with anybody?
13 A No, I've not.
14 Q Not even one?
15 A I don't believe so. I don't know
16 her.
17 Q Have you ever had any conversations
18 with Bob Bennett, the lawyer Bob Bennett?
19 A Yes, I know Bob.
20 Q Have you talked with him in the
21 last six months?
22 A Yes.
264
1 Q Have you ever talked to him about
2 Filegate or Travelgate?
3 A I have not.
4 Q What did you talk to him about in
5 the last six months and when?
6 A I'm trying to remember where I saw
7 Mr. Bennett.
8 Mr. Klayman, I -- sitting here
9 today, I can't remember where I saw
10 Mr. Bennett in the last six months, but I
11 think --
12 Q What did you discuss with him?
13 A -- but I think have seen him.
14 Q What did you discuss with him?
15 A I don't know that I discussed
16 anything with him. I know Mr. Bennett. I'm
17 pleasant when I see him. I like him. I
18 don't know that I've had any discussion with
19 him in the last six months. I think your
20 question was, had I seen him in the last six
21 months, and I believe I have.
22 Q Going back a few questions to the
265
1 conversation you --
2 A Well, wait a minute. I did see Bob
3 and his wife at a -- at a dinner that
4 Secretary Albright hosted. I believe it was
5 that dinner. It may have been the Japanese.
6 At any rate, I have seen him at a social
7 event with his wife in the last two months.
8 Q Did you have a conversation with
9 him then?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q What was discussed?
12 A I think it was purely a social
13 conversation. I don't think there was any
14 subject matter we discussed. It was normal
15 dinner party conversation.
16 Q Did you discuss the Lewinsky
17 scandal?
18 A Did not.
19 Q Going back a few questions to when
20 you discussed Kathleen Willey with the
21 President, what else did you discuss with him
22 at that time?
266
1 A I believe I discussed matters
2 regarding Latin America with him at that
3 time.
4 Q Anything else that you didn't tell
5 us about Ms. Willey that was discussed?
6 A No, I've told you everything about
7 Ms. Willey.
8 Q Have you ever discussed Ms. Willey
9 with James Carville?
10 A I have not.
11 Q How did the issue of Ms. Willey
12 come up?
13 A I think I've already testified to
14 that, Mr. Klayman. I don't remember whether
15 I asked him, "Are you doing all right,"
16 something like that, or whether he said "I'm
17 doing all right" and then commented about
18 this. It was in that context.
19 Bearing in mind the interview had
20 been very high-profile. It was a day or two
21 after the interview.
22 Q Where were you at the time that
267
1 this conversation occurred?
2 A I think we were in the Oval Office.
3 I don't -- I think it was the Oval Office.
4 Q Have you seen George Stephanopoulos
5 from time to time on This Week with Sam
6 Donaldson and Cokie Roberts?
7 A On occasion.
8 Q Did you see him on or about
9 February 8th 1998 when he talked about an
10 Ellen Rometsch strategy?
11 A I don't believe I saw that
12 particular airing of the interview in
13 Washington.
14 Q During that interview, he also
15 discussed that the White House strategy was
16 to take everybody down with him? Did you
17 hear that?
18 A I didn't see that particular
19 program.
20 Q But you did hear about that after
21 the fact?
22 A I think only in preparation with my
268
1 attorneys.
2 Q You weren't aware that
3 Mr. Stephanopoulos had made the statement
4 that White House allies were whispering about
5 an Ellen Rometsch strategy?
6 A I don't think I learned of that
7 until considerably later. I believe it was
8 in preparation for this or other interviews.
9 Q You did know, however, who Ellen
10 Rometsch was before preparing for this
11 deposition?
12 A Not before -- I think it -- it came
13 back to me who she was, yes.
14 Q Who is she?
15 A I think she was the German -- was
16 involved in some espionage in the Kennedy
17 administration, as I recall.
18 Q President Kennedy was having an
19 affair with her?
20 A Alleged affair.
21 Q Alleged affair. Bobby Kennedy and
22 J. Edgar Hoover used FBI files to threaten
269
1 Republicans not to investigate to bring out
2 their affairs? Do you remember something
3 like that?
4 A You're going into a level of detail
5 that I was not involved at the time.
6 Q But you understood something about
7 that before the issue arose in preparation
8 for this deposition?
9 A I'm not sure that I knew of
10 Mr. Stephanopoulos' remark, Mr. Klayman,
11 before preparation for this or other
12 depositions.
13 Q Based on your experience in dealing
14 with Mr. Stephanopoulos, would he ever lie to
15 you, that you know of?
16 A No, George was also professional
17 and truthful as far as I was concerned.
18 Q Have you ever known him to be
19 dishonest?
20 A Certainly not in anything I've been
21 involved with him.
22 Q Would you take his word without
270
1 questioning it based on your experience with
2 him?
3 A I would take his words -- now, if
4 George was an expressing an opinion, that
5 doesn't mean his opinions are always right.
6 Q Has the First Lady ever been less
7 than truthful with you?
8 A No, she has not.
9 Q Has the President?
10 A No, he has not.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: You want to change
12 the video? Let's take a little break so he
13 can change the tape.
14 THE WITNESS: Fine.
15 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off video
16 record at 3:49 p.m.
17 (Recess)
18 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
19 record at 4:00 p.m.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Do you know Lanny Davis?
22 A I do.
271
1 Q When did you first meet Lanny
2 Davis?
3 A I believe, Mr. Klayman, I met Lanny
4 sometime after he joined the White House. I
5 may have met him before that. I don't
6 remember that I did.
7 Q Did you play any role in having him
8 join the White House?
9 A No, I don't believe that I did.
10 Q Well, you hesitated a little bit
11 there. Is there a reason why?
12 A I was just trying to remember if I
13 had played any role, or he had asked me to
14 play any role when I met him. And I don't
15 believe that I did.
16 Q Do you know why Mr. Davis was
17 brought to the White House?
18 A I was not part of that decision, so
19 I don't know.
20 Q Do you know why he was brought to
21 the White house?
22 A I just answered that. I was not
272
1 part of that decision. I don't know.
2 Q Do you know what he did once he got
3 there?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What's that?
6 A He generally responded to the
7 allegations regarding certain matters outside
8 the policy area of the White House, as, I
9 believe, Mr. Fabiani had done prior to
10 Mr. Davis joining the White House.
11 Q He was kind of the press secretary
12 of the White House counsel's office, in
13 effect?
14 A You really would -- I'm not sure I
15 can define his job description. He -- I
16 was -- he didn't report to me, obviously,
17 and he seemed to obviously have some
18 interface with the press.
19 Q He was the person who talked to the
20 press about the Clinton controversies?
21 A I think that's a fair way to put
22 it.
273
1 Again, I don't know how his job
2 description or responsibility was defined.
3 Q Are you aware that Mike McCurry had
4 told the press, "I don't deal with scandal
5 matters. Go see Lanny Davis"?
6 A I believe I remember Mr. McCurry
7 saying he was not going to talk about certain
8 issues, and that others would talk about
9 those issues, whether it was Mr. Davis or
10 someone else in the White House.
11 Q Who else in the White House besides
12 Mr. Davis?
13 A As a remember it, Mr. Fabiani was
14 there before Mr. Davis and had a somewhat
15 similar role.
16 Q Did you or anyone else in the White
17 House ever question why a White House counsel
18 lawyer would be performing the role of press
19 secretary on scandal matters?
20 A I never raised any questions about
21 that.
22 Q Did that seem somewhat peculiar to
274
1 you?
2 A No, it did not.
3 Q From time to time, did you send
4 documents to Lanny Davis when you worked in
5 the White House, give him information?
6 A I'm sorry?
7 Q Did you ever provide information to
8 Mr. Davis while the two of you were in the
9 White House?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
11 THE WITNESS: I -- from time to
12 time, I had some communication with
13 Mr. Davis, and there -- there may have been
14 some written communication involved in those
15 exchanges.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q What was the communication about?
18 A As I remember it, from time to time
19 there would be certain allegations or
20 questions about my involvement in certain
21 matters, and Mr. Davis would be handling
22 these, and I would visit with him about it
275
1 and perhaps exchange information.
2 Q What matters were they?
3 A They related essentially to either
4 congressional hearings or other legal
5 proceedings that were being reported about by
6 the press, Mr. Klayman, as I recall.
7 Q Were those proceedings dealing with
8 campaign fundraising allegations?
9 A I think there were a couple of
10 issues of that type, yes.
11 Q Travelgate?
12 A I don't recall any travel matters
13 during the time Mr. Davis was there. There
14 might have been. I don't recall any.
15 Q Filegate?
16 A I don't recall any matters
17 regarding the file matter.
18 Q You provided some documentation to
19 Mr. Davis while you were at the White House?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
21 THE WITNESS: From time to time, I
22 might have had some written documents
276
1 exchanged or my attorneys might have. I
2 don't recall anything specific.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q What documents did you provide to
5 Mr. Davis?
6 A I think I've already answered that
7 question.
8 Q Do you know where he put them once
9 they were provided to him?
10 A No, I do not.
11 Q Those documents were meant for
12 dissemination to the media --
13 A No.
14 Q -- all or part?
15 A I don't think anything I provided
16 was meant for dissemination to the media. It
17 was simply to Lanny Davis.
18 Q Do you know whether or not he
19 provided those documents to the media?
20 A I do not.
21 Q Did you ever tell him not to?
22 A No.
277
1 Q What files of yours did those
2 documents come out of?
3 A Mr. Klayman, really, I've already
4 answered that. I don't remember specific
5 information that I gave to Mr. Davis. I'm
6 not absolutely certain I did, but it's
7 possible I did, and I don't remember what it
8 would be.
9 Q Have you ever met a Terry Good?
10 A No, I don't believe that I have.
11 Q Have you ever heard of an Office of
12 Records Management?
13 A Yes, I've heard of Office -- I've
14 heard of the Office of Records Management.
15 Q When did you first hear of that?
16 A I don't recall when I first heard
17 of the Office of Records Management.
18 Q Roughly speaking?
19 A Oh, it's been several years ago, I
20 think.
21 Q Many years ago?
22 A Well, a number of years ago.
278
1 Q Around the time that you began
2 working at the White House?
3 A Probably sometime after that. I
4 just don't recall when I first heard the-
5 Q What did you --
6 A -- heard the term.
7 Q We'll call it ORM. What did you
8 learn about ORM?
9 A I think I learned an Office of
10 Records Management existed. It was an office
11 in the White House that kept records that
12 were official business. I think I later
13 learned that.
14 Q Did you learn about the ORM from
15 reading White House manuals, or were you
16 trained to send records there from some kind
17 of seminar, or how did you learn?
18 A I believe I was told about it, and
19 I believe perhaps some of my staff members
20 used the term with me, or described how the
21 Office of Record Management worked. I
22 believe that's how I learned about it.
279
1 Q What did they tell you about how it
2 worked?
3 A It was the repository for official
4 records in the White House.
5 Q Did you send records to ORM when
6 you left the White House?
7 A I did.
8 Q What did you send there?
9 A I asked both my staff and my
10 personal attorneys to send all records, all
11 of my records, to records Management that
12 were official White House business, which I
13 believe they did.
14 Q What were the categories of
15 documents that you sent there?
16 A It would have been a very large
17 volume of matters I had worked on.
18 Q Among the documents you sent
19 involved the Travel Office matter?
20 A I think I have testified earlier --
21 in fact, I have -- that I kept documents
22 relating to the various legal proceedings,
280
1 which the Travel Office matter would fall
2 under, that were determined to be either work
3 product of my attorneys or attorney/client
4 privilege.
5 Q But the documents you kept, you
6 kept copies, right? You didn't take the
7 originals?
8 A I believe the attorney/client
9 privileged documents I took original copies,
10 Mr. Klayman. I believe that's right.
11 Q These so-called personal letters
12 that you took with you, were they on White
13 House stationery?
14 A I think most were on personal
15 stationery.
16 Q Some were on White House
17 stationery?
18 A I can't say for certain. Letters
19 to my mother or brother, other family
20 members, would have been on personal
21 stationery.
22 Q Have you ever made a request of the
281
1 Office of Records Management to look for
2 documents or retrieve documents?
3 A I believe my office has made
4 requests of them to do that, Mr. Klayman.
5 Q Did you ever ask for the Office of
6 Records Management to look for records
7 concerning Kathleen Willey?
8 A No.
9 Q Linda Tripp?
10 A No.
11 Q Monica Lewinsky?
12 A No.
13 Q Newt Gingrich?
14 A No.
15 Q Bob Barr?
16 A No.
17 Q Trent Lott?
18 A No.
19 Q Any congressman or senator?
20 A Not to my recollection, no.
21 Q Any public interest group?
22 A No.
282
1 Q Ken Starr?
2 A No.
3 Q Larry Klayman?
4 A No.
5 Q Mack McLarty?
6 A No.
7 Q Were you ever interested to see
8 what was in your FBI file?
9 A No, not really.
10 Q Did you know among the files that
11 were obtained by the White House was James
12 Carville's file?
13 A I was not aware the White House had
14 any file -- had any file on Mr. Carville.
15 Q Have you ever seen an FBI file?
16 A No, I don't think I've ever seen an
17 FBI file.
18 Q Have you ever seen an FBI summary
19 report?
20 A I don't believe I have,
21 Mr. Klayman. I don't believe I've ever seen
22 a physical file or summary report.
283
1 Q Are you aware that the White House
2 counsel's office has requested documentation
3 from the Office of Records Management from
4 time to time?
5 A I'm really not aware of what the
6 White House counsel's office has requested or
7 not requested, Mr. Klayman.
8 Q Are you aware that the White House
9 counsel's office made requests for documents
10 concerning Linda Tripp?
11 A No.
12 Q Are you aware that the Office of
13 Records Management retrieved documents
14 concerning Linda Tripp?
15 A No, I'm not aware of that.
16 Q Are you aware that the White House,
17 among the various FBI files procured,
18 included in those FBI files was the file of
19 Linda Tripp?
20 A I'm not aware of that.
21 Q Have you ever seen a list of the
22 FBI files that were retained by the White
284
1 House subject to this suit?
2 A No, I have not.
3 Q Are you aware that information from
4 Linda Tripp's file, security file at the
5 Pentagon, was released to the media?
6 A I believe I read about that in
7 newspapers.
8 Q Do you have any other basis for
9 knowing that?
10 A I do not.
11 Q Have you ever discussed Linda Tripp
12 with anyone outside of the White House?
13 MR. SPAEDER: Apart from counsel?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: I believe my driver
16 at the White House brought up that he knew
17 Ms. Tripp.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Who was your driver?
20 A Bob Lehman was my driver.
21 Q When did that come up?
22 A I have forgotten when it was. Two
285
1 or three months ago. It was when she had so
2 much publicity surrounding her.
3 Q Who raised the issue?
4 A I believe he did.
5 Q Where is Bob Lehman today?
6 A He's still working with the White
7 House.
8 Q How is the name spelled?
9 A L-e-h-m-a-n.
10 Q What did you say?
11 A I told him I didn't know her. I
12 had met her when she was in counsel's office.
13 That was about the extent of the
14 conversation.
15 Q Why did Mr. Lehman bring it up?
16 Did he say?
17 A No, he's the talkative type. Had
18 been in the news. He brought it up. Said he
19 had seen her outside. That was about it.
20 Q Have you ever met Monica Lewinsky?
21 A I have not.
22 Q Has Mrs. Clinton ever requested
286
1 information on the background of holdover
2 employees?
3 A I'm not aware of any request of
4 that type.
5 Q Do you know of anyone who has?
6 A No.
7 Q Do you have any information as to
8 why Linda Tripp was transferred from the
9 White House to the Pentagon?
10 A No, I do not.
11 Q Do you have any information as to
12 why Monica Lewinsky was transferred from the
13 White House to the Pentagon?
14 A No, I do not.
15 Q Do you know Mr. Bacon?
16 A I know Mr. Bacon.
17 Q How did you get to know Mr. Bacon?
18 A I believe I met Mr. Bacon when
19 Secretary Perry introduced me to him. And I
20 believe I worked with him on the Williamsburg
21 Ministerial with the Latin America Ministers.
22 I think he was involved in that.
287
1 I was involved with that for
2 Secretary Perry, and I think I had some
3 interface with Mr. Bacon during that period
4 of time.
5 Q Have you ever discussed Linda Tripp
6 with Bacon?
7 A No, I've not.
8 Q Have you ever discussed Linda Tripp
9 or any Clinton controversy with Secretary of
10 Defense William Cohen?
11 A No, I've not.
12 Q When was the last time you talked
13 to William Cohen?
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
15 foundation.
16 THE WITNESS: I talked to Secretary
17 Cohen about two weeks ago, when he called me.
18 That's the last time I talked to him.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Why did he call you?
21 A I'm trying to remember the subject.
22 We had talked about the potential sale of
288
1 aircraft to Chile, where he had recently
2 visited. There was another defense matter.
3 I would have to refresh my memory to explain
4 it, but it was about a defense matter in
5 Latin America. That I remember.
6 Q At the time, did you represent
7 interest from Chile?
8 A No, I did not.
9 Q Did you talk to him about anything
10 involving the Lewinsky controversy?
11 A Absolutely not.
12 Q Did you talk to him about anything
13 concerning Linda Tripp?
14 A No.
15 Q Ken Bacon?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you ever hear of a Clifford
18 Bernath?
19 A No, I have not.
20 Q You know what the Privacy Act is,
21 don't you?
22 A I'm, generally, aware of the
289
1 Privacy Act.
2 Q How did you become aware of the
3 Privacy Act?
4 A Well, through my attorneys, I think
5 I was aware of it just as a term used at some
6 point after I served in government.
7 Q Some point after you served in
8 government?
9 A After I began serving in
10 government.
11 Q After you began serving?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Which attorneys are you talking
14 about?
15 A I'm talking about my personnel
16 attorneys.
17 Q Did you retain those personal
18 attorneys throughout your period in the White
19 House?
20 A Not my entire period in the White
21 House.
22 Q When did you first retain them?
290
1 A I'd have to check my records. It's
2 been a number of years.
3 Q Roughly speaking?
4 A Last several years.
5 Q After some of these controversies
6 hit like Travel Office?
7 A After I was asked to testify at
8 various legal proceedings and -- that's when
9 I retained my current attorneys.
10 Q Was there any formal training
11 offered in the White House about the Privacy
12 Act and how to obey it when you were there?
13 A There were some training at
14 seminars about certain matters of that type.
15 I don't specifically recall they related to
16 the Privacy Act, but they could have.
17 Q Were you ever advised as to whether
18 or not you, Mack McLarty, or those working
19 for you could keep files on individuals?
20 A I don't recall being advised about
21 that specific matter.
22 Q What do you recall being advised
291
1 about?
2 A Well, you asked me, was I advised
3 about keeping files on individuals? I don't
4 recall being advised on that particular
5 matter.
6 Q Were you advised whether or not if
7 you did keep a file on an individual, you had
8 to inform that individual?
9 A I don't recall that being raised
10 with me.
11 Q Were you ever advised as to whether
12 or not if you kept a file on an individual,
13 you needed to get their permission to release
14 anything from that file to the public?
15 A I don't recall that type of
16 briefing, Mr. Klayman, that I -- that I had
17 or was aware of.
18 Q Do you know of anybody who received
19 such advice in the White House?
20 A I don't know whether there was a
21 briefing about that particular matter or not.
22 There were a number of briefings regarding
292
1 ethics matters and things of that nature,
2 which, of course, I received, as did my
3 staff.
4 Q Before you were subpoenaed to
5 appear here today --
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- in this lawsuit, Alexander v.
8 FBI, were you aware that there was a class
9 action lawsuit concerning Filegate?
10 A I was aware there was a legal
11 action being brought regarding Filegate. I'm
12 not sure I made a determination it was class
13 action suit.
14 Q How did you become aware of that?
15 A Through the public press.
16 Q Were you aware of any decisions
17 rendered by the court in that lawsuit?
18 A No, I really have not kept up with
19 the legal decisions regarding it.
20 Q Are you aware of any legal
21 decisions bearing on whether or not the White
22 House is covered by the Privacy Act?
293
1 A I don't believe that I have
2 followed the matter that closely or studied
3 it that carefully regarding legal matters.
4 Q No one at the White House ever
5 brought that to your attention, that the
6 court had issued a ruling on the
7 applicability of the Privacy Act to the
8 Executive Office of the President?
9 A I don't recall that being brought
10 to my attention when I was in the White
11 House.
12 Q Do you know if it was brought to
13 anybody else's attention?
14 A It certainly could have been
15 brought to my personal attorney's attention.
16 It's a legal matter. I just don't recall it
17 ever being raised with me.
18 Q Do you know of anyone else in the
19 White House whose attention it was brought
20 to, if any?
21 A I don't know.
22 Q During the time that you were at
294
1 the White House, was there anything issued in
2 writing about compliance with the Privacy Act
3 that you know of?
4 A Mr. Klayman, there's been a number
5 of memoranda regarding various legal
6 proceedings that my office had received when
7 I was in the White House. We certainly tried
8 to comply with them. I don't know -- I don't
9 recall a specific memoranda regarding the
10 Privacy Act. There may have been one.
11 Q Were you ever privy to any meetings
12 or conversations where the issue of
13 safeguarding privacy rights were discussed?
14 A I don't recall any meeting where I
15 was involved in any discussion of that type,
16 and I don't believe I was part of it.
17 Q You were aware, however, when you
18 worked at the White House that certain types
19 of information was not permitted to be
20 released to the public?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You yourself had a top secret
295
1 security clearance?
2 A Yes, I had a top secret security
3 clearance.
4 Q You had access to classified
5 information?
6 A I did.
7 Q You knew that wasn't to be
8 disclosed to the public?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q You knew that information from
11 personnel files was not to be disclosed to
12 the public?
13 A Yes, that was my understanding.
14 Q Knew that information from FBI
15 files was not to be disclosed to the office?
16 A I think I understood that, although
17 I had no FBI file information or no FBI
18 files.
19 Q So you knew there were certain
20 restrictions on disclosure of information to
21 the public?
22 A Yes, I did.
296
1 Q It's just that you never received
2 any formal instruction on that?
3 A I don't know that I said that,
4 Mr. Klayman. I think my testimony is there
5 may have been some written communication
6 about this. Any type of those policy
7 guidelines, my office certainly tried to
8 follow. We took them seriously. I just
9 don't recall any specific policy guideline
10 about the Privacy Act. There may have been
11 one.
12 Q But you don't remember any?
13 A I don't remember seeing a specific
14 memorandum.
15 Q Have you ever met or spoken with a
16 Jane Mayer of the New Yorker Magazine?
17 A No.
18 Q Do you know whether or not there
19 was a reception in the White House within the
20 last month attended by Jane Mayer?
21 A I do not.
22 Q Was there a reception for Mandy
297
1 Grunwald in the White House?
2 A I believe I read about that in the
3 paper.
4 Q Was that a shower for her?
5 A I believe that's what it said in
6 the paper.
7 Q Ms. Mayer was present?
8 A I don't -- I don't know Ms. Mayer,
9 so I don't know whether she was present or
10 not.
11 Q Have you ever met a Joe Conason?
12 A No, I do not believe that I have.
13 Q Jonathan Broder?
14 A No.
15 Q Salon Magazine?
16 A Wait a minute. I know a John
17 Broder.
18 Q John Broder.
19 A With the New York times.
20 Q No, no. Have you had any contact
21 of any kind with an Internet publication by
22 the same of Salon Magazine?
298
1 A No, I have not.
2 Q Have you ever received any internal
3 memos or other types of documentation in the
4 White House from Sidney Blumenthal about
5 Salon Magazine?
6 A No, I don't believe I have.
7 Q Have you ever heard of a Murray
8 Wasc (phonetic)?
9 A No.
10 Q Gene Lyons?
11 A Yes, I know -- I know who Gene
12 Lyons is. I may have met Gene Lyons.
13 Q Where did you meet Gene Lyons?
14 A I believe he lives in Arkansas, if
15 I'm not mistaken, and writes a regular column
16 for the Arkansas Democratic Gazette.
17 Q Did you ever have any contact with
18 him?
19 A I don't believe I ever had any
20 discussion with Gene Lyons. I'm not certain
21 I've met, but I know him by face because I've
22 seen him on television.
299
1 Q As part of the McLarty
2 Transportation Company -- what's the name of
3 that again?
4 A McLarty Companies.
5 Q You own some car dealerships?
6 A We do. Fourth generation in that
7 business. I'm actually the third. Our son
8 is the fourth.
9 Q Did you ever sell Mr. Lyons a car?
10 A We sell a lot of cars, about 15,000
11 a year. I don't know whether we sold him a
12 car or not. I may have met Mr. Lyons. I
13 think I have met him. I don't recall when or
14 where, but I think I've met Gene Lyons.
15 Q When you strongly suggested that it
16 would be a good idea for Bernie Nussbaum to
17 resign, did you consult in advance with
18 Webster Hubbell?
19 A No, I don't believe that I did.
20 Q Getting back to Mr. Carville, when
21 you acknowledged knowing that Mr. Carville
22 had declared war on Ken Starr --
300
1 A I said I heard it during an
2 interview he conducted.
3 Q Right. You heard him threaten to
4 break the kneecaps of Ken Starr?
5 A I don't think I said that.
6 Q Did you ever hear that?
7 A No, I have not.
8 Q You heard about his comments
9 mocking Ken Starr's religion? You have heard
10 that?
11 A No, I have not.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
13 Mischaracterizes what the witness said.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q You haven't heard a statement to
16 the effect that Ken Starr goes down to the
17 Potomac each day to pray to wash the
18 fornicators out of Washington, D.C., nothing
19 to that effect?
20 A No, I've not heard that statement.
21 Q You've heard of Sidney Blumenthal's
22 remarks about Hickman Ewing and his religious
301
1 practices up at Harvard?
2 A I recall reading something about
3 that.
4 Q You don't approve of any of this
5 stuff, do you?
6 A Well, Mr. Klayman, you're
7 characterizing remarks, and I'm not familiar
8 with what was said or what was not said in
9 what context, and I'm not going to make a
10 judgment on something I don't know the facts
11 about.
12 Q Well, take the remarks on their
13 face, you wouldn't say anything like that,
14 would you, Mr. McLarty?
15 A Well --
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 Relevance, vague and hypothetical.
18 THE WITNESS: You're characterizing
19 certain remarks, Mr. Klayman, that I don't
20 know what was said or not said. I certainly
21 don't believe in criticizing somebody's
22 religion.
302
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Well, let's say they were. I'm
3 talking about the remarks. I'm trying to get
4 your way of operating, your way of doing
5 business.
6 A I think I've already answered that
7 question.
8 Q Would you make a remark that you're
9 going break the kneecaps of somebody?
10 A It depends on the -- it depends on
11 the context and so forth. As a lighthearted
12 remark, you might -- you might make a remark
13 like that.
14 Q That's -- I'm sorry.
15 A I think I said, you know, you're
16 going to strangle somebody. I think I said
17 that about our two sons from time to time.
18 Q Did you ever threaten to break your
19 sons' kneecaps?
20 A No, I think I've threatened to
21 strangle them on occasion.
22 Q Did you ever make fun of somebody's
303
1 religious practices publicly?
2 A I've tried to be careful not to do
3 that, and I don't believe I ever have.
4 Q Did you ever threaten to wage war
5 on a prosecutor?
6 A No.
7 Q It's not a very smart thing to do.
8 A I will leave the judgment of what's
9 smart and what's not to others.
10 Q You don't approve of Mr. Carville's
11 practices, do you?
12 A I don't think I've said that.
13 Q So you do approve of them?
14 A I have not made an opinion of
15 whether I approve or don't approve.
16 Q Have you ever issued a public
17 rebuke of Mr. Carville and his statements?
18 A No, I have not.
19 Q Are Mr. Carville's activities
20 endorsed by the President of the United
21 States, to the best of your knowledge?
22 A I don't know whether the President
304
1 has endorsed them or not, Mr. Klayman.
2 Q Now, when you were at the White
3 House, you did hear discussions about the
4 credibility of certain individuals
5 investigating the President, didn't you?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I
8 did. I -- I don't know that I did.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You are aware that the White House
11 has made an effort to attack the credibility
12 of various individuals who brought lawsuits
13 and investigations against this
14 administration?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
16 THE WITNESS: I'm really not aware
17 of what the White House may or may not have
18 done in that regard, Mr. Klayman. I just
19 really don't know anything about it.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Were you so far out of the loop
22 that you're not aware of these things?
305
1 A I was not involved in these type of
2 matters. I was focusing on Latin America and
3 economic trade matters and other matters that
4 don't relate to the subject we're discussing.
5 Q Is that because you didn't want to
6 be involved in these kinds of activities?
7 A No, because my responsibilities and
8 activities were elsewhere.
9 Q So if asked by the President, you
10 would involve yourself in public discourse of
11 the activities of prosecutors and others who
12 have brought investigations and lawsuits
13 against this administration?
14 A If --
15 MS. ZIEGLER: Objection.
16 Hypothetical.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Join in the
18 objection.
19 THE WITNESS: If asked by the
20 President to give him advice or counsel in a
21 matter, I would try to give him the best
22 counsel I could.
306
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q No. What I'm saying is, would you
3 go public and discuss, for instance, the
4 activities of Mr. Starr if asked?
5 MS. ZIEGLER: Same objection.
6 THE WITNESS: It depends on what
7 type of context that I would be asked to go
8 public, but I have not been asked, so it's
9 hypothetical.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You're aware that a few weeks ago
12 Mike McCurry made a statement that Ken
13 Starr's having subpoenaed the Secret Service
14 was slime? You're aware of that, aren't you?
15 A I believe I read that, yes.
16 Q Would you make a statement like
17 that, based on your way of doing business?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form,
19 hypothetical and relevance.
20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, you're
21 asking me how I would characterize certain
22 things and certain matters where I just don't
307
1 have a factual basis, have not given them any
2 thought, so I'm not sure how I would
3 characterize it publicly or I just really
4 haven't given the matter any thought.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q If I went back through the public
7 record, I wouldn't find Mack McLarty ever
8 making a statement like that, would I?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- you know,
11 I don't know how you would interpret some
12 statements I have made in the public record
13 that I made. You might take exception to
14 some of them. I just simply don't know.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q I'm just saying if I went back and
17 did an actual search, would I find you making
18 those kinds of provocative remarks about
19 people during the time you were in the White
20 House?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
22 THE WITNESS: I haven't stated my
308
1 past remarks, Mr. Klayman, so I really can't
2 give you much a response on that.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Have you ever characterized the
5 ethical conduct of Ken Starr in public?
6 A No, I don't believe that I have.
7 Q Have you ever attacked his religion
8 in public?
9 A No, I've not.
10 Q Have you ever attacked his
11 investigatory practices in public?
12 A I believe I have said it's time to
13 conclude this investigation in public.
14 Q That's what you said?
15 A I believe that's a fair assessment.
16 Q Have you ever commented on the
17 ethical character of any of the prosecutors
18 of Ken Starr, people who are under him?
19 A No.
20 Q You left the White House, didn't
21 you, because you didn't want to be part of
22 this, correct?
309
1 A That's not -- no, that's not a
2 correct characterization at all.
3 Q In fact, you don't approve of the
4 activities in of the White House in attacking
5 the credibility of the independent counsel,
6 do you?
7 A Mr. Klayman, I don't agree with
8 that assessment. I left the White House
9 because I had completed my responsibilities
10 to the extent I thought you could complete
11 them, and had served much longer than I
12 intended.
13 Q But you don't approve of
14 personalizing this whole Lewinsky and other
15 controversies with Independent Counsel Starr,
16 do you?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the form.
18 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, you're
19 asking for conclusions and opinions about
20 matters that I have not given thought to and
21 not reached conclusions about. I have said
22 the atmosphere is much too partisan and those
310
1 types of things, but I just haven't -- you're
2 asking me questions that I'm not going to --
3 not going to offer an opinion on. They're
4 not factual questions.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Does it trouble you, Mr. McLarty,
7 that these kinds of statements were made by
8 people in and associated with the White
9 House, the ones I've just gone through?
10 A Mr. Klayman --
11 Q Does that trouble you?
12 A Mr. Klayman, it troubles me this
13 environment is very partisan, and some of the
14 individuals that you have raised I have a
15 high regard for, so I'm just not going to
16 reach conclusions on these matters.
17 Q Do you have a high regard for James
18 Carville?
19 A I like James.
20 Q Do you have a high regard for him?
21 A I have a high regard for him.
22 Q Do you have a high regard for his
311
1 ethics?
2 A Mr. Carville has always been
3 ethical in any dealings I've had with him.
4 Q Do you have a high regard for his
5 character?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
7 Relevancy.
8 THE WITNESS: Mr. Carville is a --
9 is a fierce advocate, but I like and respect
10 him.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Do you have any problem with
13 anything that he's done?
14 A Mr. Klayman, I haven't analyzed
15 what Mr. Carville has or has not done.
16 Q So, consequently, you don't really
17 have any problem with him, as far as you
18 know?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form,
20 relevancy and vagueness.
21 THE WITNESS: I just haven't given
22 this matter any thought. I have already
312
1 given you my opinion.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Is there anything that you know of
4 that's been reported, or of you know of from
5 personal experience, that you disapprove of
6 that Mr. Carville has done?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
8 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I really
9 think I've answered your question.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q No, I want an answer to the
12 question.
13 MR. SPAEDER: Well, you can get an
14 answer if he doesn't have an opinion. You
15 can't force him to have an opinion, Counsel.
16 He's told you his answer. That's all he's
17 going to say.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Harold Ickes. Do you know Harold
20 Ickes pretty well?
21 A I do know Harold.
22 Q How did you get to know Harold
313
1 Ickes?
2 A I met Harold in Little Rock
3 in 1992, I believe, after the election.
4 Q How did you meet Harold Ickes?
5 A I believe it was suggested that he
6 play a key role in the campaign and was going
7 to be interested in serving the
8 administration -- serving in the
9 administration, and that I should meet him,
10 which I did.
11 Q At the time that you met him, were
12 you aware that he represented restaurant
13 workers in New York City?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you subsequently come to learn
16 that?
17 A I did.
18 Q How did you learn that?
19 A As I remember it -- that's been a
20 number of years ago. I believe we're talking
21 about the same matter -- his representation
22 of, I believe, the restaurant workers of
314
1 the -- of the union there, if that's what
2 you're referring to, became a matter of
3 controversy about his serving in the White
4 House. And it was going to be a -- I
5 believe, investigated or reviewed in New
6 York.
7 Because of that matter, both we and
8 Mr. Ickes made the determination that he
9 should not serve in the White House at this
10 particular time, and we reached that
11 conclusion and he did not initially until
12 this review or investigation was concluded.
13 Q There were allegations that
14 Mr. Ickes had connections with organized
15 crime, correct?
16 A I think there --
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
18 Foundation.
19 THE WITNESS: I think there were
20 allegations to that effect.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Was any review conducted in the
315
1 White House to determine whether or not that
2 was true?
3 A No, I'm not aware of any.
4 Q He subsequently was offered a
5 position in the White House, correct?
6 A He was, Mr. Klayman, as I remember
7 it, after the investigation in New York was
8 concluded. And I believe it concluded that
9 there were no proof of any ties to organized
10 crime whatsoever.
11 Q Mr. Ickes was recommended for his
12 job in the White House by Hillary Clinton,
13 correct, to you?
14 A I don't remember Mrs. Clinton
15 recommending Mr. Ickes to me. I'm not sure
16 if anyone recommended him to me.
17 He generally was held in almost
18 universally high regard by those that had
19 worked in the 1992 campaign with him. The
20 President and Mrs. Clinton had a favorable
21 view as well, but I don't recall a specific
22 recommendation.
316
1 Q Well, he became your Deputy Chief
2 of Staff, correct?
3 A 1994, I believe.
4 Q Yes. He worked for you?
5 A He did.
6 Q How did he get his job
7 specifically?
8 A We had discussed in 1992 Mr. Ickes
9 being Deputy Chief of Staff, and had actually
10 worked together in transition on that basis,
11 and then when he did not go forward because
12 of the matter that you raised, we obviously
13 made other decisions regarding staffing.
14 So when this investigation was
15 completed, it was relatively natural for him
16 to join the White House in a similar
17 position, which he did, and I made that
18 decision.
19 Q Well, as your Deputy Chief of
20 Staff, you were directly responsible for his
21 actions, correct?
22 A Yes. He's responsible for his own
317
1 actions, but he reported to me.
2 Q Right, but it wasn't your idea to
3 hire Ickes, was it?
4 A Well, Mr. Klayman, I had not worked
5 in the 1992 campaign. A lot of people in the
6 White House not just was working in the
7 campaign, but others that I didn't know, so I
8 had to rely on others opinions. But I
9 certainly concurred with that and in 1994 I
10 supported Harold's coming in as Deputy Chief
11 of Staff, because I --
12 Q I'm not asking whether you
13 supported him. You will support anything the
14 President asks you to support, correct?
15 A No, that's not correct.
16 Q Well, give me an example of when
17 you didn't support something the President
18 asked you to support.
19 A Well, there have been a number of
20 issues where I've had a different view of the
21 President, and I have expressed that view
22 either by personnel or by policy matters.
318
1 Now, ultimately if the President
2 makes a decision, I will support that
3 decision, or if I disagree with it so
4 strongly that I can't support it, I would do
5 other things. I would leave. There never
6 was an instance like that.
7 Q The decision to hire Ickes was made
8 for you, wasn't it?
9 A Mr. Klayman, I don't think that's a
10 fair characterization at all. The President
11 and the Vice President, Mrs. Clinton,
12 Mrs. Gore others outside of the four
13 principals would have suggestions about
14 personnel in the White House both in 1992 and
15 during my term as Chief of Staff. And I
16 would take their views certainly into
17 account, and as much as I felt I could, I
18 would try to accommodate them.
19 Q You got a strong suggestion to hire
20 Ickes from someone, didn't you?
21 A I did.
22 Q Who was that?
319
1 A I have already testified I don't
2 remember any specific recommendation of
3 Harold Ickes, and I've already testified that
4 a number of people had a very opinion of
5 Mr. Ickes, including the President and
6 Mrs. Clinton.
7 Q They're the ones that obviously
8 that count the most, right?
9 A No, I think the President and the
10 Vice President are the two principals in this
11 administration.
12 Q So the Vice President recommended
13 Ickes as well?
14 A The Vice President had a favorable
15 view of Mr. Ickes.
16 Q Before Ickes was hired as Deputy
17 Chief of Staff, did you review any
18 investigative reports related to his prior
19 alleged montage?
20 A I did not personally review any
21 investigative reports.
22 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
320
1 A It was certainly my understanding
2 that a thorough investigation had taken place
3 and had concluded that there were no ties
4 that Mr. Ickes had to any matters of
5 organized crime and that he was, therefore,
6 should -- was free to serve in the White
7 House, if we chose to ask him to do so, and
8 he accepted.
9 Q Where did you get that information
10 specifically?
11 A Sitting here today, I don't recall
12 the specific method of gathering that
13 information, whether it was through the White
14 House counsel's office or -- or others. I
15 think it probably was through the White House
16 counsel's office.
17 Q Who in the White House counsel's
18 office?
19 A Mr. Klayman, I don't remember
20 sitting here today.
21 Q Now, Mr. Ickes had to go through an
22 FBI background check before he got the job,
321
1 right?
2 A I believe that's correct, the
3 position at that level.
4 Q Did you or anyone else ever ask to
5 review his FBI file or summary report before
6 he actually was offered the job?
7 A I didn't review his FBI file.
8 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
9 A I believe the White House counsel's
10 office routinely reviews -- or as a matter of
11 business, matter of course of business,
12 reviews those files.
13 Q Do you know whether they reviewed
14 his?
15 A I don't know that for an absolute
16 fact. I assume that they did as they did
17 other senior officials.
18 Q Did you ever ask anyone, "Have you
19 checked Mr. Ickes' FBI file or summary
20 reports to see whether or not there's
21 anything about organized crime in there?"
22 A No, sir, I never asked anyone in
322
1 that way. I was aware that this
2 investigation had been completed and
3 concluded, what you just said.
4 Q Wouldn't that have been the prudent
5 thing to do given these previous reports
6 about Harold Ickes?
7 A The way it generally worked,
8 Mr. Klayman -- the answer is, no, I don't
9 necessarily think it would have been.
10 Q Isn't that the reason for the FBI
11 background report, one of the reasons? To
12 see whether anyone has any prior criminal
13 activity?
14 A I think that is the part of the
15 review.
16 Q So, therefore, shouldn't his FBI
17 file have been specifically checked before he
18 got his job by you?
19 A Mr. Klayman, the way it worked -- I
20 don't believe I could review every FBI file
21 as Chief of Staff. And the way it normally
22 worked is the White House counsel's office
323
1 would bring to my attention if there were
2 matters, not just about organized crime, but
3 any matters, that might raise an issue of why
4 someone was not suitable to serve in the
5 administration.
6 I don't believe any matter was
7 raised about Mr. Ickes in that regard.
8 Q But based on your experience, this
9 would have been a legitimate use of an FBI
10 file? Check Ickes out before he started as
11 Deputy White House Chief of Staff to you?
12 A Mr. Klayman, you're asking about an
13 FBI file or an FBI review in a level of
14 detail that I certainly don't -- don't know
15 about. I just simply don't know what is
16 called for in an FBI review.
17 Q You were aware, however, that some
18 of the people Mr. Ickes represented in his
19 prior law firm and the restaurant workers
20 union indeed were confirmed to be organized
21 crime figures?
22 A No, I don't believe I'm aware of
324
1 that.
2 Q Mr. A'Madaeo (phonetic)?
3 A No, I'm not.
4 Q You never heard of Mr. A'Madaeo?
5 A No, I have not.
6 MS. ZIEGLER: What's the relevance
7 of this line?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Yeah, I join in the
9 objection.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Did you ever heard of John Gotti?
12 A I have heard of Mr. Gotti.
13 Q He is an organized crime figure,
14 isn't he?
15 A That's my understanding.
16 Q You were aware that Mr. Ickes was
17 reported to have had ties with people close
18 to Gotti?
19 A No, I don't recall Mr. Gotti's name
20 coming up in 1992 or in 1994.
21 Q In essence, what I'm trying to
22 figure out, given Mr. Ickes' history, why is
325
1 it that you can't tell me definitively that
2 no one in the White House reviewed his FBI
3 file or summary reports before he became your
4 deputy?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. You're
6 haranguing the witness.
7 MS. ZIEGLER: Mischaracterization
8 of his testimony.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond.
11 A Mr. Klayman, to the best of my
12 understanding and knowledge, Mr. Ickes' FBI
13 review was conducted in the same manner that
14 every other FBI review was conducted. And it
15 was never brought to my attention that it was
16 not conducted in that manner or that any
17 matter like the one you are raising should --
18 should be a matter of concern. That was
19 never raised with me.
20 Q Did anyone ever raise concerns
21 about Mr. Ickes in the White House before he
22 started as your deputy?
326
1 A I believe Secretary Benson
2 commented he was -- did not agree with
3 Mr. Ickes' political philosophy, and he
4 wanted me to be aware of that.
5 Q What did he say about Mr. Ickes'
6 political philosophy?
7 A I think he felt it was a bit
8 different than his.
9 Q A bit far to the left?
10 A I think more level.
11 Q Because of Mr. Ickes' reported
12 past, did you take any precautions in terms
13 of instructing Mr. Ickes on his duties and
14 responsibilities?
15 A No, I did not.
16 Q Did you follow what he did at the
17 White House closely?
18 A Mr. Ickes reported to me, and I
19 managed him as I had other deputy chiefs of
20 staff.
21 Q Do you take responsibility for
22 anything he did at the White House when he
327
1 worked under your direction and control?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Asked and
3 answered.
4 THE WITNESS: I think the Chief of
5 Staff ultimately has that responsibility.
6 Again, as I earlier testified, I think
7 individuals have to take responsibility for
8 their own actions.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q But you will accept responsibility
11 for Mr. Ickes?
12 A I think a Chief of Staff in the
13 broad sense should accept responsibilities
14 for the activities of the White House.
15 Q Have you read recently that
16 Mr. Ickes is apparently a target in the
17 campaign finance investigation of the Justice
18 Department?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. If you're
20 going to start asking campaign finance
21 questions and you continue to go down this
22 path, then we're going to have some problems.
328
1 We're going to have to stop.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, this is my
3 first question.
4 THE WITNESS: I read an article or
5 saw a headline about that. I don't think I
6 concluded Mr. Ickes was a target. I don't
7 think I concluded that from quickly scanning
8 the recall.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Does this concern you, whatever you
11 read?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
13 Relevancy, hypothetical.
14 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I
15 reached any conclusion about whether it
16 concerned me or not. It was an allegation.
17 There's been a lot of allegations over the
18 past several years.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Did you ever solicit the opinion of
21 Webster Hubbell and whether or not
22 Mr. Nussbaum should be encouraged to resign?
329
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Asked and
2 answered.
3 THE WITNESS: At an earlier point
4 in time, Mr. Klayman, I believe I had a
5 discussion with Mr. Hubbell about
6 Mr. Nussbaum's effectiveness, but I don't
7 believe that was in the time period when
8 Mr. Nussbaum resigned.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did you ever have discussions with
11 Mr. Hubbell about Mr. William Kennedy and
12 whether he should continue in the White
13 House?
14 A I believe -- I believe that I did.
15 Q What were the nature of those
16 discussions?
17 A I believe I asked Mr. Hubbell's
18 view about the effectiveness of Mr. Nussbaum
19 and Mr. Kennedy at some earlier point in time
20 than Mr. Nussbaum's resignation, and about
21 whether or not they had the skills to operate
22 effectively in a political environment.
330
1 Q Did you discuss with Mr. Hubbell
2 their involvement, if any, with Travel Office
3 matters or FBI Filegate matters?
4 A No, I did not.
5 Q When did Mr. Nussbaum resign, so to
6 speak?
7 A Mr. Klayman, sometime in 1994. I
8 want to say March or April, but I'm not
9 absolutely certain of the precise dates.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
11 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
12 Exhibit 8.
13 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
14 No. 8 was marked for
15 identification.)
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q I'm showing you Exhibit 8. These
18 are documents that you produced to the
19 Government Reform and Oversight Committee,
20 correct?
21 A Mr. Klayman, I'm not sure of the
22 exact method these documents were produced
331
1 for you without consulting my attorneys or
2 White House counsel.
3 Q Well, we can moot this question
4 out. Let's look at the first page of
5 Exhibit 8.
6 A Uh-huh.
7 Q This is a page from your calendar,
8 is it not?
9 A From my Daytimer, which is -- yes,
10 it is.
11 Q That's your handwriting below?
12 A It is.
13 Q Can you read to us what you wrote
14 in there in your handwriting?
15 A Yes. I've got, "Webb/Legal. 1,
16 Kennedy; 2, Bernie; 3, HRC attitude."
17 Q What were you recording there?
18 A I believe this is a notation to
19 remind me or to suggest that I might want to
20 discuss with Mr. Hubbell whether or not
21 Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Nussbaum were effective
22 in their current positions, get his views on
332
1 that, and how, if we made a change regarding
2 them, Mrs. Clinton, who had been a partner
3 with Mr. Kennedy and knew Mr. Nussbaum, would
4 feel about that.
5 Q Why was Mrs. Clinton's attitude
6 relevant? It says, "HRC attitude," right?
7 A Yes, her view.
8 Q Why is that relevant?
9 A Mrs. Clinton, of course, was a very
10 respected attorney prior to being First Lady.
11 She knew Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Nussbaum well,
12 particularly Mr. Kennedy, and I felt her
13 views on this matter were important to be
14 taken into consideration, Mr. Klayman.
15 Q Mrs. Clinton did not have any
16 formal role in these matters, did she?
17 A Not a formal role.
18 Q Did she have a veto as to whether
19 or not these people could leave the White
20 House?
21 A No, she did not.
22 Q Who made the ultimate decision?
333
1 A Ultimate decision would -- would be
2 the President. I might make a recommendation
3 to him. He could accept it or reject it.
4 Q Were you afraid that Mrs. Clinton
5 would disapprove if Nussbaum and Kennedy were
6 asked to leave?
7 A No, I was not.
8 Q Turn to further on down in
9 Exhibit 8. Do you see the second page? What
10 are those notations there?
11 A If I'm looking at the same page you
12 are. March 13, is that the date,
13 Mr. Klayman?
14 Q Yes.
15 A It has, "Jim Blair, Kendall, Webb
16 (HRC statement. Maggie.)"
17 Q What is that all about?
18 A I believe this is around the time
19 that Mr. Hubbell made a decision to resign
20 his position at the Justice Department. And
21 I believe I've already offered testimony that
22 I learned Mr. Blair had discussions with him
334
1 regarding that decision and --
2 Q Who is Mr. Blair again?
3 A Mr. Blair is an attorney in
4 Arkansas.
5 Q With what firm?
6 A He is, I believe, general counsel
7 or has been general counsel for Tyson Foods.
8 And before that, he was in private practice.
9 Q What does he have to do with
10 Hubbell's decision to resign?
11 A As I've already testified before, I
12 learned of Mr. Blair -- had had discussions
13 with Mr. Hubbell about his decision. He is a
14 longtime friend of the President's, and I
15 think from time to time an informal advisor
16 to the President.
17 Q What is this HRC statement all
18 about? Did Mrs. Clinton make a statement?
19 A No. I think it refers to -- this
20 has been almost four years ago, but I think
21 it refers to if Mr. Hubbell resigned, that
22 because they had been law partners, there
335
1 might be press inquiries to Mrs. Clinton, and
2 it might be a better way to handle it for
3 just Mrs. Clinton simply to have a statement
4 about Mr. Hubbell's decision. I think that's
5 what that refers to.
6 Q Did you play any role in getting
7 employment for Mr. Hubbell after he resigned?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
9 Relevancy.
10 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the
11 question?
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did you play any role in getting
14 employment for Mr. Hubbell after he resigned?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q How so?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Can you explain why
18 this is relevant? The witness can leave the
19 room if you want.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Course of conduct,
21 his authority, that sort of thing.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't understand
336
1 that connection.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: His role at the White
3 House.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think that
5 that's covered within every specific
6 activity.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: It's covered. Make
8 your objection and let's move on.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I'm going to
12 let you ask a couple of questions, and then I
13 will instruct the witness based on Rule 30.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q You may respond.
16 A Mr. Klayman, please ask the
17 question again.
18 Q What role you did you play in
19 getting Mr. Hubbell a job or jobs?
20 A I tried to be a supportive friend
21 to Mr. Hubbell during what I thought would be
22 a difficult period, and I contacted two
337
1 people and asked their views about employment
2 opportunities for Mr. Hubbell.
3 Q Who were they?
4 A Mr. Arnold, and I can't recall
5 whether I contacted Mr. Keithlee directly or
6 Mr. Burton contacted him.
7 Q Mr. who?
8 A Mr. Burton.
9 Q No, you contacted?
10 A Mr. Keithlee.
11 Q Keithlee.
12 A I've already offered testimony
13 about this earlier.
14 MR. SPAEDER: This is very
15 repetitive, Counsel. If you had been
16 listening, all of this is part of the record
17 that has been acquired earlier in the
18 morning.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I apologize if
20 I'm repeating, it but it's faster than
21 arguing about it.
22 THE WITNESS: Mr. Keithlee is a
338
1 partner at Jones, Day law firm and had worked
2 with and for me at ARKLA.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Let's go to the third page. Can
5 you read that note for me at Bates 20328?
6 A It's got, "Base, Ron Perlman -- HI,
7 Truman Arnold, B. Rappaport -- others.
8 Consulting arrangement" -- I can't read the
9 next line, Mr. Klayman.
10 Further down, it's got, "Law firm's
11 reluctant to touch. Mickey to help. Vernon
12 to help. Indemnity agreement Christine," and
13 it has "P one week."
14 Q What is that indemnity agreement
15 about?
16 A I don't recall what that's about,
17 Mr. Klayman.
18 Q So Vernon Jordan was being asked to
19 help get Hubbell a job, too?
20 A No, I don't believe that's the
21 case.
22 Q Well, how did his name pop up here?
339
1 A I believe this reflects a
2 conversation that I had with Mr. Jordan. It
3 may reflect just notes I was making, but
4 it -- not having a contemporaneous
5 conversation with him.
6 But I believe I was aware that
7 Mr. Jordan had been asked by Mr. Hubbell or
8 wanted to be supportive of Mr. Hubbell, as I
9 and a number of other people I have now
10 learned wanted to be, in helping him through
11 what appeared to be a difficult period.
12 Q Did there come a point in time when
13 you learned of a computer system by the name
14 of W-h-o-D-B, WhoDB?
15 A Yes, there did.
16 Q When did you learn of that?
17 A I recall of trying to update the
18 computer system and various lists sometime
19 in '93 or '94. I'm not sure whether it was
20 referred to at that time as WhoDB or whether
21 that was later in press accounts.
22 Q How did you learn of that computer
340
1 data base?
2 A I was aware that many people in the
3 administration, including the President and
4 First Lady and others, and including myself,
5 were concerned about not having accurate
6 lists after the 1992 campaign once we had
7 come to the White House, and that we needed a
8 database or a list to have information about
9 certain people, to include them in various
10 events, and there needed to be an effort to
11 get some kind of compiling of that data. It
12 did not seem to have any database or way to
13 do that in an orderly, easily, efficient
14 manner.
15 Q What kind of events?
16 A As I remember it, they dealt with
17 social events such as Christmas parties.
18 Perhaps when we visited a certain state where
19 the President, Vice President had supporters,
20 longtime friends, we just didn't have any
21 kind of database that was easily assembled to
22 make sure we, frankly, just didn't leave
341
1 people out that we would want to include in
2 certain events.
3 Q Did you or anyone else inquire at
4 the White House whether the Bush
5 administration had that kind of database who
6 could take into account these concerns?
7 A I don't recall my inquiring or
8 having that matter raised. I don't recall
9 any reference to the Bush administration in
10 that regard, Mr. Klayman.
11 Q Was any effort made to determine
12 whether a pre-existing database was present
13 at the White House that could take into
14 account those needs?
15 A It was my understanding that --
16 you're talking about a database -- a computer
17 program, so to speak? Is that you what mean?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Certainly the names would be
20 different, obviously.
21 I don't remember there being a
22 ready computer, what I call a computer
342
1 program or database, a system to allow the
2 White House to -- to have such data. I don't
3 believe there was one available. That was
4 certainly my understanding.
5 Q I take it you engaged in these
6 discussions about the need for such a
7 database with Mrs. Clinton among others?
8 A Among others, yes, I was aware of
9 the concern and I shared that concern.
10 Q You discussed this with Marsha
11 Scott as well?
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q Who else did you discuss it with?
14 A I actually assigned my deputy at
15 the time, Phil Laeder, to deal with this
16 matter and pursue it and see what could be
17 done in order to develop this type of
18 information base or database.
19 Q How is Laeder spelled?
20 L-a-e-d-e-r?
21 A I believe it's e-r. It may be a-r.
22 I'd have to check.
343
1 Q What were his duties and
2 responsibilities at the time?
3 A He was Deputy Chief of Staff at the
4 time.
5 Q Before or after Harold Ickes?
6 A Before.
7 Q What position did he hold after
8 Harold was made Deputy Chief?
9 A I believe Mr. Laeder moved to head
10 of the SBA at some point in time, and he and
11 Harold may have worked together for some
12 period of time, Mr. Klayman. I just have to
13 really reconstruct he --
14 Q Did you sit in on any -- I'm sorry.
15 A -- what position he had at that
16 time.
17 Q Did you sit in on any meetings
18 where decisions were made to obtain a
19 database that could take these needs into
20 account?
21 A I think I had one or two meetings
22 with Ms. Scott, perhaps, to see how the
344
1 project was coming along. I think it was
2 more just quick updates, not what I would
3 call full meetings. But I think I asked her
4 on a couple of occasions how things were
5 coming along.
6 Q Was it Hillary Clinton who made the
7 decision to obtain this type of database?
8 A No, it was not.
9 Q Who made that decision?
10 A I think I did.
11 Q Accepted her recommendations,
12 however, to obtain that kind of database?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
14 foundation.
15 THE WITNESS: No. As I testified
16 earlier, Mr. Klayman, I think a number of
17 people had concerns about this, including the
18 President as well as Mrs. Clinton and others.
19 And I shared those concerns. But I think a
20 number of people were concerned we did not
21 have an adequate database for social
22 occasions and other activities of that type.
345
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q What discussions did you have with
3 the President about obtaining such a
4 database?
5 A I simply recall his being concerned
6 that we did not have a database, an
7 information base regarding various friends,
8 various supporters, various other people that
9 he knew around the country to be included in
10 certain events. It just was not readily
11 accessible, easily accessible, and we were
12 concerned -- he was concerned that we were
13 omitting people, leaving people out, and he
14 felt we needed to have some way to do that in
15 an efficient and orderly manner.
16 Q Individuals of Democratic National
17 Committee also expressed these concerns to
18 you and others in the White House at the
19 time?
20 A I don't recall the concern about
21 the database that I'm speaking of. I don't
22 recall Democratic officials -- Democratic
346
1 Party officials expressing concerns about
2 this matter.
3 I do recall the President and the
4 First Lady and others in the administration.
5 I don't recall the DNC expressing those
6 concerns.
7 Q Did you ever discuss this issues
8 with Skip Rutherford?
9 A I may have. I don't have a
10 specific recollection of discussing this
11 matter with Mr. Rutherford.
12 Q There were discussions that when
13 such a database was obtained, it should be
14 compatible with DNC databases, correct?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Lacks
16 foundation.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't remember,
18 Mr. Klayman, of any compatibility aspect with
19 the DNC being discussed regarding this
20 matter. I didn't get into that level of
21 detail. I understood the need for a database
22 and, of course, that would include people in
347
1 Arkansas as well as people around the
2 country.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q But it was understood that that
5 database should be fully compatible with the
6 DNC databases?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You can respond.
10 A I don't know that it was
11 understood. It would not seem illogical to
12 me that it should be.
13 Q The reason it's not illogical is so
14 the DNC databases and White House databases
15 can communicate with each other?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to form.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Klayman, you're
18 really suggesting some conclusions at a level
19 of consideration that, frankly, I just didn't
20 give about this matter. So I'm not going to
21 agree or disagree.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
348
1 Q Now, the operational person in
2 terms of making sure that WhoDB was
3 implemented was Marsha Scott, correct?
4 A Now, I looked to Mr. Laeder
5 regarding this. Ms. Scott was at level below
6 him.
7 Q What was Ms. Scott's position at
8 the time?
9 A I believe at that time Ms. Scott
10 was head of the correspondence unit, if I'm
11 not mistaken.
12 Q What is the correspondence unit or
13 what was it?
14 A I think it still exists. I think
15 it is a unit in the White House that handles
16 a lot of, but not all, of the President's
17 correspondence.
18 Q Ms. Scott was and is very close
19 with Mrs. Clinton, correct?
20 A Ms. Scott is from Arkansas. She
21 has known both the President and Mrs. Clinton
22 for a number of years. I don't recall
349
1 whether Ms. Scott worked in the Clinton
2 administration in Arkansas or not. I believe
3 she did, but I'm not sure. But she knew
4 Mrs. Clinton as well the President.
5 Q What did you understand
6 specifically WhoDB was designed to house in
7 terms of information?
8 A I think I've already given you my
9 best understanding of it, Mr. Klayman,
10 several times in this exchange.
11 Q Did you ever have any conversations
12 with Sally Paxton, the attorney at this
13 table, about WhoDB?
14 A I don't recall that Ms. Paxton and
15 I have discussed this matter.
16 Q Are you aware that recent testimony
17 was elicited which claims that she was the
18 person most knowledgeable about WhoDB in the
19 White House counsel's office?
20 A No, I'm not aware of that.
21 Q Are you aware that WhoDB contains
22 entries for a person's name, Social Security
350
1 Number, race, religion, sex, political
2 affiliation, with a section where you can add
3 on comments?
4 A I'm not familiar with that level of
5 detail of the forms.
6 Q What detail are you familiar with?
7 A Mr. Klayman, as I remember this
8 matter, we frankly did not come to conclusion
9 during the time I was involved in it, and
10 that the project was moving rather arduously
11 in terms of compiling this list. So I --
12 that's about my extent of it. Once I was not
13 Chief of Staff, I was not involved in it.
14 Q Have you ever had access as a user
15 to WhoDB?
16 A No, I have not.
17 Q Has anyone on your staff?
18 A I don't believe they have.
19 Q Do you know who has had access to
20 WhoDB as users?
21 A No, I do -- no, I do not.
22 Q Do you know how you access WhoDB?
351
1 A No, I do not.
2 Q Do you know whether documents
3 generated by WhoDB have ever been stored in
4 the Office of Records Management?
5 A I do not know.
6 Q Do you know whether or not
7 information from FBI files was ever loaded up
8 on WhoDB?
9 A I have no knowledge.
10 Q You have no knowledge one way or
11 the other?
12 A To my knowledge, they haven't been,
13 but I don't know about it.
14 Q Where has your knowledge come from
15 that they have not been?
16 A That would not be my understanding
17 of what WhoDB was going to do.
18 Q Well, where do you get that
19 understanding?
20 A I have already testified my
21 understanding was this project, which I'm not
22 sure came to completion during my tenure as
352
1 Chief of Staff, was to have an organized list
2 of various people around the country, friends
3 of the President, friends of the Vice
4 President, things of that nature, and I don't
5 think the FBI files would be included in
6 that.
7 Q But you don't know who the users of
8 WhoDB were?
9 A No, I do not.
10 Q You don't know who they are?
11 A I think "are" is the better way to
12 put it, yes.
13 Q You can't vouch that people in the
14 First Lady's office didn't load up FBI files
15 in those computers?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
17 Foundation, form.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You don't know that one way or the
20 other, do you?
21 A I don't know that level of detail.
22 Q You don't know whether --
353
1 A I have no reason to believe that
2 they would.
3 Q Well, but you don't know one way or
4 the other, correct?
5 A I have not looked at this --
6 Q Other than your faith in what
7 Mrs. Clinton does or does not do?
8 A That's fair.
9 Q You don't know whether or not the
10 White House counsel's office loaded up FBI
11 file information on this database or other
12 databases, do you?
13 A I do not know that for a fact one
14 way or the other.
15 Q You have seen recent reports in the
16 newspaper quoting Lucianne Goldberg as saying
17 that Linda Tripp saw FBI file information
18 being loaded up on computers?
19 A I don't remember seeing that
20 remark, and don't believe I saw such remark.
21 Q Do you know whether or not the
22 President ever reviewed information from FBI
354
1 files?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
3 THE WITNESS: I think there were
4 occasions when we had a selection of a senior
5 official or a cabinet officer where some
6 information regarding the FBI check was
7 raised with the President or presented to
8 him. I think that's --
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Who presented that information to
11 him?
12 A Normally, it would be the White
13 House counsel's office and others involved in
14 the selection process of a particular
15 potential senior officer or cabinet official.
16 Q What type of FBI information was
17 presented to the President?
18 A As I would understand it, the
19 normal FBI mental check review would be
20 discussed -- might be discussed with the
21 President if the situation warranted it.
22 Q Who discussed it with the
355
1 President?
2 A Normally it would be the White
3 House counsel, the person that interfaced
4 with the FBI or perhaps the White House
5 counsel, and there might be others involved
6 in, I've already said, in this particular
7 decision -- in a particular decision.
8 Q Can you give me some names of
9 people who did that?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. What
11 names are you seeking?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: White House counsel
13 people that briefed the President.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: You can answer that
15 question.
16 THE WITNESS: Depends on what
17 period of time. Mr. Nussbaum, Mr. Foster,
18 Mr. Cutler, Mr. Klein, originally Mr. Ruff,
19 Ms. Mills. Those would be the people in the
20 White House counsel's office, or their
21 designate.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
356
1 Q They would come down with the FBI
2 material in tow?
3 A I don't think I said that,
4 Mr. Klayman. I think might present certain
5 information that the President would need to
6 make a fully-informed decision about whether
7 to ask someone to serve in the cabinet or
8 not.
9 Q Were you ever present when FBI
10 material was discussed with the President?
11 A Yes, I believe I was.
12 Q On how many occasions?
13 A I can recall at least one occasion.
14 There perhaps were more.
15 Q Whose FBI material was being
16 discussed?
17 A I don't --
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I instruct the
19 witness not to answer that question.
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't think
21 I should answer that question, Mr. Klayman.
22 That's about an individual, and I don't
357
1 believe I should answer that question.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's directly
3 relevant to this case. I will take it --
4 MS. SHAPIRO: He's not answering
5 that.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want, I will
7 take it under protective order.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: No, absolutely not.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Absolutely not?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: That's right.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you've got a
12 motion for sanctions coming.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine.
14 MS. ZIEGLER: Mr. Klayman, you're
15 asking about someone applying for a job in
16 the Clinton administration.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I just said we can
18 put it under a protective order.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't agree to
20 that.
21 MS. ZIEGLER: You're asking about
22 somebody that's not in the class, potential
358
1 class, or --
2 MR. KLAYMAN: We don't know who it
3 is until we find out.
4 MS. ZIEGLER: It's an applicant for
5 the position in the administration.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: We don't know. This
7 is directly relevant, and you're providing
8 testimony, and that's inappropriate. We'll
9 certify this area.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Are you instructing him not to
12 answer?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: I am instructing him
14 not to answer, yes.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Under any
16 circumstances, even if it's taken under a
17 protective order?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Even if it's taken
20 under -- in camera?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Yeah. Well, I don't
22 know about in camera --
359
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you provide this
2 information in camera?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: -- you know.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you provide this
5 information in camera?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: If the judge asks for
7 it in camera, I will provide it.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you offer it in
9 camera --
10 MS. SHAPIRO: No.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: -- to try to resolve
12 this impasse?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: No.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Thanks for your
15 cooperation.
16 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, may I
17 ask what "certify" means? I don't know what
18 that means.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: It means mark it on
20 the transcript.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
360
1 Q Was the information that was
2 provided on this individual in written form
3 or was it done orally?
4 A My recollection is it was done
5 orally.
6 Q Who provided the information
7 orally?
8 A The White House counsel's office.
9 Q Who specifically?
10 A Mr. Klein, as I remember this
11 particular example.
12 Q When did this occur?
13 A I believe 1994.
14 Q Was this person a Democrat or
15 Republican, the one who was involved?
16 A I think an independent.
17 Q Was he a member of a third
18 political party, he or she?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to instruct
20 him not to answer questions that are going to
21 reveal who the person is, because that's what
22 I've instructed him not to answer.
361
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying by
2 asking whether or not this is a third
3 political party, it would reveal the person?
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. Well, the
5 questions that you're asking are designed to
6 narrow who it could be and eliminate people
7 so that you can try to figure out who the
8 person is.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm getting
10 information so I can go to the judge for my
11 motion.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: That's fine.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Have you,
14 Ms. Shapiro, discussed this with Mr. McLarty
15 before I elicited this information? Do you
16 know for a fact that my asking these
17 questions is going to narrow --
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm listening to your
19 questions right now, and I'm not going to
20 engage in a discourse with you --
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: -- now. You can ask
362
1 your questions.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Was there another instance when
4 information was provided to the President
5 from the FBI about an individual where you
6 were privy to that?
7 A Mr. Klayman, I believe in trying to
8 recollect, in the original cabinet selection
9 in 1992, where I was an informal advisor, I
10 believe, as a matter of routine business,
11 that the FBI check -- I believe the
12 information was conveyed to the President on
13 a need-to-know basis by those directly
14 involved in this -- in this matter --
15 Q What matter?
16 A -- or in the review -- in the
17 review in the selection of a cabinet officer,
18 and those that had been directly involved in
19 an FBI review. Mr. Christopher was the
20 manager of the transition during that period.
21 Q So this is another occasion when
22 FBI material was provided to the President in
363
1 your presence?
2 A Well, I'm not -- I'm not confident
3 in saying it was FBI material, Mr. Klayman.
4 I -- that was my understanding, but I'm not
5 confident I am correct in that -- in that
6 statement.
7 Q Can you think of other instances
8 where FBI material may have been provided to
9 the President?
10 A I think FBI material was provided,
11 for example, to the World Trade Center
12 bombing and matters of that type.
13 Q How was it provided to the
14 President in matters of that type? Who
15 provided it?
16 MS. SHAPIRO: I just want to
17 caution the witness that anything classified
18 or pertaining to national security, you can't
19 discuss.
20 THE WITNESS: I think it's a
21 commonly-known fact the FBI was involved in
22 that particular matter and others, and as a
364
1 routine course of business, some of that
2 information obviously is provided to the
3 President.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q The information provided to the
6 President was with regard to defendants in
7 that matter?
8 A Was to -- no.
9 Q With regard to defendants.
10 A It was in -- I'm not sure how much
11 I should -- what's proper here to relate.
12 I mean, I think it's common
13 knowledge the FBI was either in charge of or
14 involved in this matter, and information that
15 they obtained was provided to the President
16 about it.
17 Q Was FBI material ever provided to
18 the President about Bob Dole?
19 A I'm not aware of any information of
20 that type.
21 Q Do you know one way or the other?
22 A I'm not aware of any information
365
1 that was provided. I'm certainly not aware
2 of it.
3 Q Can you vouch to say that you were
4 present at all briefings by the FBI with the
5 President?
6 A No, I don't know whether -- I don't
7 know whether, Mr. Klayman, there were any FBI
8 briefings with the President.
9 Q Were there ever FBI briefings with
10 the President concerning Ross Perot?
11 A I'm not aware of any.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: What you're trying to
13 do, Mr. Klayman, is to go by process of
14 elimination and get at the information I've
15 instructed him not to answer. So I'm not
16 going to allow him to answer questions
17 eliminating all names that you throw out.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: This is absurd. Do
19 you know how many people there are in the
20 world? Over 3 billion. How is that a
21 process of elimination that's going to focus
22 on the prior name that I was seeking to get?
366
1 How in any stretch of the imagination would
2 that occur?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, it seems to me
4 that's exactly what's going on.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: You're just
6 obstructing my deposition.
7 MR. SPAEDER: Is there a pending
8 question?
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Were you present at all FBI
11 briefings with the President that you know of
12 about individuals? Can you vouch for that?
13 A Mr. Klayman, one, I don't know of
14 any what I would call FBI briefings about
15 individuals that were conducted with the
16 President. I'm not aware of any FBI
17 briefings that were done with the President
18 in the manner that you're suggesting.
19 Q Or briefings where FBI material was
20 discussed?
21 A I don't know whether I was
22 present -- I'm certain I was not present at
367
1 all of the meetings of this type over the
2 last six years. I'm sure that's not right.
3 Q Do you know whether or not FBI
4 material on Jack Kemp was ever provided to
5 the President?
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Let's take a break at
7 this point. I would like to discuss some
8 matters with counsel.
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
10 video record at 5:17.
11 (Discussion off the record)
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
13 record at 5:28.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Where do we stand?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Where we stand is the
16 witness' testimony was clear that only
17 information with respect to people being
18 considered for Clinton administration,
19 government positions were discussed.
20 To the extent that you want to ask
21 about people other than Clinton nominees, I
22 will allow you to ask those questions. I
368
1 will not allow any questions about any
2 Clinton administration --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that was not
4 the testimony. You're providing him
5 testimony right now, and we will be moving
6 for very severe sanctions on the basis of
7 that comment in front of the witness.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, that was the
9 testimony. I think the record will reflect
10 that.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: It was not the
12 testimony, but you're on notice. Please
13 don't do it again.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Was FBI material ever provided to
16 the President about Ross Perot?
17 A I'm not aware of any such material.
18 Q You don't know one way or the
19 other?
20 A To the best of my knowledge, no FBI
21 material regarding Mr. Perot was or has been
22 provided to the President.
369
1 Q But were you present during all
2 briefings where FBI material was discussed?
3 Do you know that for a fact?
4 A I would feel like after I was Chief
5 of Staff, I was not present at all the
6 briefings.
7 Q I mean, was --
8 A Mr. Klayman, all I can do is just
9 give you the best of my knowledge.
10 Q Was FBI material ever provided to
11 the President concerning Jack Kemp?
12 A To the very best of my knowledge,
13 it was not and has not been.
14 Q But you were not present at all
15 possible briefings, were you?
16 A I've already testified that I do
17 not believe that I was.
18 Q 1996, you were not Chief of Staff?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q Do you know whether FBI material
21 has ever been provided to Mrs. Clinton?
22 A To the very best of my knowledge,
370
1 it has not been.
2 Q But you can't vouch for that,
3 because you haven't been with the President
4 in all possible briefings, have you?
5 A I can only tell you what I know
6 about or know to be a fact or not a fact to
7 the best of my knowledge, Mr. Klayman.
8 Q It wasn't your job to be present
9 during all briefings with Mrs. Clinton, was
10 it?
11 A No, it was not.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: Are you going to
13 revisit the two questions that were on the
14 table before the break?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: What questions were
16 they?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: You had asked about
18 Bob Dole and somebody else.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I believe I did
20 revisit them.
21 Was there a question about Bob
22 Dole, Ms. Court Reporter? Was there any
371
1 question about Bob Dole never responded to?
2 (The reporter read the record as
3 requested.)
4 MR. KLAYMAN: There was no question
5 pending.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Fine.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: In any event, after
8 your instruction, all questions have been
9 tainted at this point, as well as all
10 answers.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Do you know whether or not Harold
13 Ickes ever received information from the FBI?
14 A No, I do not.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Do you know whether Leon Panetta
18 ever received FBI information when he was
19 White House Chief of Staff?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
21 THE WITNESS: I do not know that
22 for a fact, Mr. Klayman.
372
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q The same question with regard to
3 Erskine Bowles since he's been Chief of
4 Staff?
5 A I do --
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection.
7 THE WITNESS: I do not know that
8 for a fact.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Do you know a Fan Dozier?
11 A I'm sorry?
12 Q Do you know someone by the name of
13 Fan Dozier, F-a-n, last name D-o-z-i-e-r?
14 A No, I do not believe I do.
15 Q If I told this person worked for
16 Catherine Cornelius' company, would that
17 refresh your recollection?
18 A I don't believe I know this person
19 you're referring to, Mr. Klayman.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
21 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
22 Exhibit 9.
373
1 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
2 No. 9 was marked for
3 identification.)
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Bates numbers 3 and 4 of the
6 documents which you produced today.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: What are you marking?
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q I'm sorry. This is a document
10 entitled, "Travel Office, Thomason Calendar
11 Conflicts with McLarty Statement to GAO."
12 It's apparently a press report written by
13 John Solomon of Associated Press.
14 I turn your attention to page 4,
15 Bates number, second and third paragraphs.
16 "Notes from a White House interview of Fan
17 Dozier, an employee of Cornelius' company,
18 suggests Dozier also believed from her
19 conversations with presidential aides that
20 Mrs. Clinton wanted the workers fired.
21 "'Said HRC very upset re
22 misa(ppropriation) of funds and wanted them
374
1 out of there,' says the notes of Dozier's
2 interview."
3 Do you have any knowledge about a
4 Fan Dozier?
5 A I don't know Ms. Dozier.
6 Q Do you know Parker Dozier?
7 A No, I do not believe that I do.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I will ask the court
9 reporter to mark as Exhibit 10 Bates number 8
10 of the documents which you produced this
11 morning.
12 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
13 No. 10 was marked for
14 identification.)
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q This appears to be a facsimile
17 transmission cover sheet to Leslie Berger,
18 Esquire, from Natalie Williams, date
19 July 26, 1995, comments as discussed.
20 Who is Natalie Williams?
21 A I don't believe I know
22 Ms. Williams. I think she works in the
375
1 counsel's office or had worked there, but I
2 don't believe I know her, Mr. Klayman.
3 Q Who is Leslie Berger?
4 A Ms. Berger is sitting right here.
5 She's my personal attorney.
6 Q Why was this document, this cover
7 page, in your files?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q Where are the other five pages to
10 this fax?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Before these documents were sent to
13 Ms. Berger, was any clearance obtained from
14 the White House to send those documents to
15 her?
16 A I think Ms. Williams apparently
17 sent these documents. I don't know anything
18 about what she may or may not have done.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I will show you
20 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
21 Exhibit No. 11. These are Bates
22 numbers 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 of the document
376
1 production that you provided this morning.
2 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
3 No. 11 was marked for
4 identification.)
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Have you seen these documents
7 before?
8 A Only in preparation for this
9 deposition or most recently in preparation
10 for this deposition.
11 Q Well, let's take Bates number 9.
12 Is that your calendar?
13 A It is, yes, sir.
14 Q Well, What does it say at the
15 bottom?
16 A It says, "Regina now."
17 Q Who is Regina?
18 A I think that refers to Regina
19 Montoya, who was Assistant to the President
20 for Intergovernmental Affairs?
21 Q Is this your handwriting here?
22 A It is.
377
1 Q What else did you write down there?
2 A I put "Harry's report," and I've
3 got an arrow directing toward the name Paul
4 Toback, who was my -- I believe at the
5 time -- staff director. He was on my staff
6 at the time. I'm not sure what position.
7 Q What does the reference to Harry's
8 report refer to?
9 A I believe Mr. Thomason was
10 conducting a report on better ways to utilize
11 the White House in events, and had completed
12 his -- his findings and had summarized them
13 in a report. And I believe this is
14 suggesting the report to go to Mr. Toback for
15 his review.
16 Q So the reference to Harry is Harry
17 Thomason?
18 A Yes, I believe it is.
19 Q Now, did Mr. Thomason have a formal
20 role at the White House at that time?
21 A No, he was an informal advisor.
22 Q Who authorized him to prepare a
378
1 report?
2 A I believe the President did.
3 Q Who gave him the information from
4 which he could then make a report?
5 A I believe he talked to various
6 people in the White House about better ways
7 to utilize it and ways to have certain events
8 conducted in the White House.
9 Q Was any effort ever made to get
10 Mr. Thomason a security clearance before
11 people in the White House were put in contact
12 with him?
13 A I was not aware of any effort made
14 regarding security clearance.
15 Q Do you know whether or not
16 confidential information was provided to
17 Mr. Thomason for purposes of preparing his
18 report?
19 A I do not know.
20 Q Has any investigation ever been
21 undertaken as to what information was
22 provided to Harry Thomason by the White
379
1 House?
2 A Not to my knowledge.
3 Q Do you know whether Mr. Thomason is
4 currently under investigation by any
5 government body?
6 A I'm not aware any pending
7 investigation, Mr. Klayman.
8 Q Second page, that's Bates
9 number 10. Is that your handwriting on Bates
10 number 10?
11 A It is.
12 Q Can you tell me what you wrote
13 there?
14 A Got "Susan T., Harry Thompson," and
15 then it appears to be "calls," and it's got,
16 "Who is responsible, time line. We need a
17 plan," I think.
18 I cannot read this other word,
19 number two, there. I just simply can't read
20 it.
21 Q There is May 11th of 1993?
22 A Yes, that's what it's marked here,
380
1 and then it's got "2:00 o'clock, Harry
2 Thomason" and it looks like "Catherine
3 Thompson"; I believe, "Mark," which, I
4 believe, refers to Mark Gearan. It's got
5 "Catherine Thompson." I believe that's the
6 other notation at 2:30.
7 Q What are you referring to, "Harry"?
8 A Normally I would make an informal
9 note about certain appointments I had, and I
10 think I was planning to see Mr. Thomason
11 at 2:00, and I believe it says -- it's hard
12 to read because it's a copy -- Katherine
13 Thompson would perhaps include Mark Gearan in
14 that meeting at 2:30. I believe that's what
15 it is --
16 Q What was the meeting about?
17 A I don't know that the meeting took
18 place. I don't recall seeing Mr. Thomason on
19 this day, and I think it was about this same
20 report, if I'm not mistaken, that I referred
21 to earlier.
22 It was about the same time. One is
381
1 made the 12th and this is made the 11th.
2 Q Turn to Bates number 11. Is that
3 handwriting on the top yours?
4 A No, wait a minute, sir. What page?
5 Q Number 11 is the Bates number on
6 it.
7 A Because it's got dates here and
8 pages. I just didn't want to get confused.
9 It is my writing.
10 Q This is May 9th?
11 A August 9th.
12 Q August 9th.
13 A Yes.
14 Q 1993?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What did you write at the top?
17 A It has, "SR/Gearan." Then it
18 has -- it appears to be, "Vince, Harry T.
19 notified, Lisa notified" -- I cannot read
20 this other writing and I -- I can't read the
21 next line, what it says, Geramindy. I just
22 cannot read it. That may be wrong. It says
382
1 "Call."
2 I just can't read the line,
3 Mr. Klayman, other than the names I gave to
4 you earlier.
5 Q Turning to Bates number 12.
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q This is an FBI press release for
8 immediate release, June 5, 1996.
9 A Uh-huh.
10 Q Is this the press release where
11 Mr. Stephanopoulos had the word "criminal"
12 inserted in --
13 A No, it's not.
14 Q -- at his request?
15 A No it's not.
16 Q It's not? Turn to Bates numbers 13
17 and 14. "Statement, Jane C. Sherburne,
18 Special Counsel to the President,
19 June 5, 1996."
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q Who prepared the first draft of
22 this statement?
383
1 A I do not know.
2 Q What was the purpose of this
3 statement?
4 A I do not know.
5 Q Did you play any role in preparing
6 it statement?
7 A No, I did not.
8 Q Why do you have a copy of it?
9 A I don't know how I received a copy
10 of it, Mr. Klayman.
11 Q I turn your attention to a document
12 I I'll asked to be marked as Exhibit 12.
13 We'll call it composite Exhibit 12. These
14 documents comprising composite Exhibit 12
15 span Bates numbers 17 through and
16 including 26.
17 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
18 No. 12 was marked for
19 identification.)
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Showing you Exhibit 12, Bates
22 number 17 and through and including 26, which
384
1 you produced this morning, let's just turn to
2 the first page, 17. At the top, it says,
3 "Terry Good EOB," and what does it say after
4 that in handwriting?
5 A I don't believe it says anything
6 else on my copy in hand.
7 Q Is that your hand writing?
8 A No, it's -- I -- no, it's not.
9 Q Do you know whose handwriting it
10 is?
11 A No, I do not.
12 Q Do you know what the reference EOB,
13 it looks like an RM -- RMB. Does that ring a
14 bell?
15 A I think you had earlier referred to
16 Records Management. EOB would be, I believe,
17 would be the Executive Office Building.
18 Q What is document number 17? What
19 kind of document is this?
20 A Mr. Klayman, I really don't know
21 what kind of document this is. It's some
22 type of computer printout that looks like a
385
1 log of some type.
2 Q Have you ever seen this before?
3 A I have seen it in preparation for
4 this deposition.
5 Q What is it your understanding this
6 document purports to show?
7 A I am really not sure what this
8 document purports to show.
9 Q Is this a request for documents
10 from the office at Records Management?
11 A I don't know whether it is or not,
12 Mr. Klayman.
13 Q Why was this document obtained from
14 your files?
15 A I think we tried to take seriously
16 any document request that you had and tried
17 to respond to it as best we could with the
18 documents that were available.
19 Q Why is there a reference to Frank
20 Wolf?
21 A That's what's on this document.
22 I -- it says, "Name, Frank R. Wolf,
386
1 organization, House of Representatives."
2 Just without studying this more, I just
3 simply don't really know what this computer
4 printout means.
5 Q Why was this document in your
6 possession?
7 A I'm simply not sure, Mr. Klayman,
8 what this document is and why it's in my
9 possession. It's got "McLarty" and "Travel."
10 I really don't know the origin of this.
11 Q Does this document evidence a
12 request for documents from the Office of
13 Records Management?
14 A Mr. Klayman, without studying this,
15 I just don't know what this document is.
16 Q Does this document evidence a
17 listing of documents on the computer database
18 of the Office of Records Management?
19 A I'm really reluctant to guess or
20 offer an opinion.
21 Q Take a look at Bates numbers 18
22 through and including 26 and tell me whether
387
1 if I asked you the same question for any of
2 these other documents, you would give me
3 different answers? Namely, what are these
4 documents concerning, and why were they
5 obtained from your files?
6 A Mr. Klayman, I don't think I'll
7 give you any different answer. I'm just not
8 sure -- I mean I know some of these
9 individuals and so forth, but I'm just not
10 sure what this computer printout is, whether
11 it is a listing of some type of
12 correspondence. I notice Ms. Rathbone was
13 listed. But I -- I really don't know want to
14 guess or surmise about something I'm just not
15 certain of.
16 Q Who is Roy Neel, N-e-e-l?
17 A Roy Neel was Chief of Staff to Vice
18 President Gore, and then later became my
19 Deputy Chief of Staff, I believe, sometime
20 in 19 -- either late 1993 or early 1994.
21 Q Before Ickes became Deputy Chief of
22 Staff?
388
1 A I believe Mr. Neel preceded
2 Mr. Ickes.
3 Q Who is he?
4 A Mr. Klayman, I had two Deputy
5 Chiefs of Staff.
6 Q You have two at any given time?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Who was Deputy Chief of Staff
9 during the reign of Harold Ickes?
10 A I'm sorry?
11 Q Who was the other Chief of Staff
12 during the reign of Harold Ickes?
13 A During my tenure as Chief of Staff?
14 Q Right.
15 A I believe Mr. Neel was the other.
16 Q Who is Lynda, L-y-n-d-a, Rathbone,
17 R-a-t-h-b-o-n-e?
18 A I've already testified that she
19 handled my correspondence when I was Chief of
20 Staff for a period of time.
21 Q Who is Marcia Hale?
22 A Marcia Hale was director or
389
1 assistant to the President for scheduling in
2 the beginning of our administration, and then
3 she moved to be assistant to the President
4 for Intergovernmental Affairs.
5 Q What involvement, if any, did Baker
6 & Hostetler, Gerald A. Connell, have in the
7 White House Travel manner?
8 A I can't recall any involvement of
9 Mr. Connell of Baker & Hostetler in the
10 Travel Office matter sitting here today.
11 Q What involvement, if any, did Mark
12 L. Shaffer, S-h-a-f-f-e-r, of Freer,
13 F-r-e-e-r, and Alagia, A-l-a-g-i-a, have
14 concerning the Travel Office matter?
15 A To the best of my knowledge and
16 recollection, no involvement in the Travel
17 Office matter.
18 Q Are these documents copies of
19 originals which you left behind at the White
20 House? This is Bates number 17, through 26,
21 Exhibit 11?
22 A Mr. Klayman, I simply don't know.
390
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I turn your attention
2 to Bates numbers 138 to and including 142,
3 which comprises part of your document
4 production this morning, which I'll ask that
5 this be marked as Exhibit 13.
6 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
7 No. 13 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 MR. KLAYMAN: I think I just
10 referred to Exhibit 11. It's Exhibit 12.
11 MR. SPAEDER: What's the Bates
12 range, Counsel, for Exhibit 13?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Same Bates, 17
14 through 26.
15 MS. KIERNAN: No, Exhibit 13 is 138
16 to 142.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: That's correct,
18 but 12 was 17 through 26. I just
19 inadvertently referred to it as Exhibit 11,
20 just so the record is corrected.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Turning to Bates number 139, which
391
1 comprises part of Exhibit 13, this is a press
2 release prepared and issued by George
3 Stephanopoulos, is it not?
4 A Mr. Klayman, I don't believe this
5 was issued by Mr. Stephanopoulos. It appears
6 to be issued from the FBI.
7 Q Did Mr. Stephanopoulos have an
8 input into the press release?
9 A It is my understanding that he did.
10 Q Was it for this input that he was
11 criticized in the Management Report, which
12 you oversaw?
13 A I would have to review the
14 report -- it's been several years ago -- to
15 see if this particular aspect was criticized.
16 Q I won't hold you to it, but is it
17 your impression today that this was a part of
18 the criticism that was leveled against
19 Mr. Stephanopoulos?
20 A I want to be responsive,
21 Mr. Klayman. Without looking at the report
22 I'm reluctant to answer your question. I --
392
1 I just simply don't remember whether this was
2 the particular item or not. It may have
3 been. I just don't recall it. I recall
4 there was some criticism of
5 Mr. Stephanopoulos. I'm not sure it was this
6 issue.
7 Q Bates number 140, which is the
8 Justice Department press release,
9 May 20, 1993, did Mr. Stephanopoulos, to the
10 best of your knowledge, have an input into
11 the preparation and issuance of this press
12 release?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
14 Foundation.
15 THE WITNESS: There appears to me
16 to be two press releases here at least,
17 perhaps three. Is that your understanding,
18 Mr. Klayman?
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Yeah. They appear to be in
21 evolution, do they not? In other words,
22 they're the same press release, but they're
393
1 now just growing --
2 A Well, they've got --
3 Q -- more explicit each time.
4 A Well, I don't know. They've got
5 different dates on them, so I just -- I just
6 simply don't know whether there was one final
7 press release, these were drafts, or there
8 were three different releases on three
9 different days. I just don't know.
10 Q Well, let's turn to the last press
11 release, which is 142 Bates number, dated
12 May 21, 1993, Press Response, U.S. Department
13 of Justice.
14 A Right.
15 Q Wherein it states, "White House
16 Travel Office. At the request of the White
17 House, the FBI has had preliminary contact
18 with the White House and the auditors brought
19 in to audit the White House Travel Office.
20 That contact produced sufficient information
21 for the FBI to determine that additional
22 criminal investigation is warranted. We
394
1 anticipate receiving the final report of the
2 auditor soon and will analyze their findings
3 to determine the next steps in the
4 investigation. Beyond that, we are not in a
5 position to comment."
6 The use of the word "criminal" in
7 that FBI press release, that was the
8 brainchild of George Stephanopoulos, was it
9 not?
10 A Mr. Klayman, I don't know that. I
11 just simply don't know.
12 Q Does that seem to be right?
13 A No, I don't know how this press
14 release was drafted. It was from the FBI's
15 public affairs office, it looks like to me,
16 so I assume they concurred in it, and I just
17 simply don't know how the press release --
18 who worded the press release. It looks like
19 it's an FBI press release.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
21 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
22 Exhibit 14.
395
1 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
2 No. 14 was marked for
3 identification.)
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q This is a privilege log of
6 Thomas F. McLarty III, Alexander v. FBI.
7 This was produced this morning with the
8 documents that were also produced at that
9 time. Have you seen this document before?
10 A I have.
11 Q When did you first see it?
12 A In preparation for this deposition,
13 Mr. Klayman, several days ago.
14 Q Are there documents that have not
15 been produced in this lawsuit which are not
16 listed on this privilege log, responsive
17 documents that you know of?
18 A To the best of my understanding, we
19 have fully responded to the document requests
20 that you have submitted to us either directly
21 or provided the information to the White
22 House counsel's office.
396
1 Now, what -- how they -- what they
2 have done with them, I'm not certain.
3 Q What sort of documents were
4 provided to White House counsel's office?
5 A Any documents that were responsive
6 to your request or the request for documents
7 from my office or from me.
8 Q My question was, are there
9 documents that were determined to be
10 responsive that were withheld that have been
11 listed on this privilege log?
12 A Would you repeat your question,
13 Mr. Klayman?
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Could you read it
15 back, Ms. Court Reporter?
16 (The reporter read the record as
17 requested.)
18 MR. SPAEDER: Counsel, are you
19 referring to the document request that was
20 attached to his subpoena that caused him to
21 come to this deposition?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, yes, yes.
397
1 THE WITNESS: It is my
2 understanding we have provided -- that no
3 documents have been withheld; that we have
4 provided all documents requested, either
5 directly to you through my personal counsel,
6 or those documents were provided to the White
7 House counsel's office.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Well, as reflected on this
10 privilege log, clearly there were some
11 documents that weren't provided to Plaintiffs
12 in this case which were responsive, and
13 they're listed --
14 A It's the attorney/client privilege,
15 yes. Is that the one --
16 Q What I'm saying is, of the
17 documents that were not produced, are they
18 all listed on this privilege log?
19 A Oh, I see. I'm sorry. I don't
20 think I understood your question.
21 I think these are the only
22 documents that have been withheld. Is
398
1 that -- is that responsive to your
2 question -- under attorney/client privilege?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Yes. All other documents have been
5 produced either directly or through the White
6 House counsel's office, except for these
7 attorney/client privileged documents.
8 Q You stated that you were previously
9 associated with a company called ARKLA?
10 A Yes, that's right.
11 Q Are you still associated with that
12 company?
13 A No, I'm not.
14 Q When did you disengage yourself in
15 that company?
16 A When I made a determination to
17 enter public service in late 1992. I don't
18 know what the exact formal date was, but
19 sometime in late 1992, early 1993.
20 Q What was your position at ARKLA?
21 A I was chairman, chief executive.
22 Q Did you own ARKLA?
399
1 A No, I did not. It was a publicly
2 held company.
3 Q Did you own any shares of stock in
4 ARKLA?
5 A I did.
6 Q What percentage?
7 A It was a small percentage of the
8 total shares outstanding. I don't recall.
9 It was less than 1 percent.
10 Q So as chairman, you were
11 responsible for the activities of the
12 company, the ultimate person responsible?
13 A Yes, reporting to the board of
14 directors.
15 Q Were there ever any charges that
16 ARKLA had engaged in illegal activities?
17 A Yes, there were allegations.
18 Q What were those allegations?
19 A There was the circumstances, I
20 believe, in Oklahoma that you may be
21 referring to.
22 Q Had there been a lawsuit that was
400
1 brought against ARKLA where it was alleged
2 that ARKLA had bribed Oklahoma State
3 officials?
4 A I don't recall a lawsuit,
5 Mr. Klayman. I don't recall a lawsuit
6 brought.
7 Q Are you familiar with a lawsuit
8 brought by a company called Gauge
9 Corporation?
10 A No, I'm not.
11 Q Have you ever heard of a company
12 called Gauge?
13 A I have learned of it at some later
14 date. I did not know when I was at ARKLA.
15 Q When did you learn of it?
16 A I think perhaps when I read it in a
17 press account.
18 Q Do you know whether or not that
19 company was purchased by individuals named
20 Nora and Gene Lum?
21 A I have been told that it was. I
22 have learned that it was.
401
1 Q Do you know whether or not Nora and
2 Gene Lum then dismissed the lawsuit against
3 ARKLA?
4 A I have no knowledge of that, and to
5 the best of my knowledge, there is no basis
6 for that conclusion whatsoever.
7 Q Do you know whether or not Nora and
8 Gene Lum ever had contact with a John Huang?
9 A I do not know. I do not know
10 Mr. and Mrs. Lum.
11 Q Have you ever met John Huang?
12 A I have met Mr. Huang.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the
14 relevancy.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Was ARKLA ever investigated for
17 criminal activity by any authority, state or
18 federal?
19 MR. SPAEDER: At any particular
20 period of time?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Ever.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Klayman, I
402
1 don't know that I can say "ever." I mean,
2 the company has been in existence a number of
3 years.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Were there ever convictions against
6 ARKLA or any officials or employees of ARKLA
7 that you know of?
8 MR. SPAEDER: Period of time,
9 Counsel?
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Ever. While you were chairman and
12 stockholder.
13 A I don't recall of any -- repeat
14 your question, please, and limit your time?
15 Q Were there ever any criminal --
16 A And limit your time, if you would.
17 Q Have there ever been any criminal
18 convictions of ARKLA or of any of its
19 shareholders, officers or employees that you
20 know?
21 A During what time, Mr. Klayman?
22 Q Ever. During the time that you
403
1 owned shares of stock and were chairman.
2 A That's helpful just in defining the
3 time.
4 Again, the, company has been in
5 existence for a long time. To the best of my
6 knowledge and recollection, there were never
7 any convictions or --
8 Q Were there convictions --
9 A -- when I was chairman.
10 Q Were there convictions after you
11 resigned as chairman, any that you know of?
12 A Regarding ARKLA?
13 Q Yes.
14 A I know Mr. Anderson apparently was
15 tried and convicted. I don't believe it had
16 to do with ARKLA, but I may be mistaken. It
17 was after I left the company, and I just
18 simply don't know.
19 Q What was Mr. Anderson's connection
20 with ARKLA?
21 A He represented the company in
22 Oklahoma.
404
1 Q Is he an attorney?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Was a Jay Richard Moore convicted
4 of a crime after you left?
5 A I don't -- Mr. Klayman, I don't
6 believe he was. I don't know that. I don't
7 believe he was, no.
8 Q Is there an investigation of you
9 currently pending concerning ARKLA?
10 A Not to my knowledge.
11 Q Were you ever aware of any attempts
12 to bribe Oklahoma State officials by ARKLA?
13 A Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
15 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
16 Exhibit 15.
17 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
18 No. 15 was marked for
19 identification.)
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Have you ever seen this document
22 before?
405
1 A No, I do not believe that I have.
2 Q Have you ever seen any of the
3 checks which are transposed on this document?
4 A No, I don't believe that I have.
5 Q Do you know a T. Milton Honea and a
6 Marilyn L. Honea, H-o-n-e-a?
7 A I know Milton and Marilyn Honea.
8 Q Who are they?
9 A Milt Honea is a business person in
10 Arkansas. He was president of
11 Arkansas-Louisiana Gas Company and then
12 became chairman of ARKLA. And Marilyn is his
13 wife.
14 Q Do you know a David P. Sullins,
15 S-u-l-l-i-n-s?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Who is Mr. Sullins?
18 A Mr. Sullins was vice president of
19 regulatory affairs for Arkansas-Louisiana Gas
20 Company.
21 Q Do you know a Kathleen D. Gardner?
22 A I do.
406
1 Q Who is Ms. Kathleen D. Gardner?
2 A Ms. Gardner was general counsel for
3 Arkansas-Louisiana Gas Company.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: For the record, these
5 are documents which were introduced as public
6 records by Commissioner Bob Anthony of the
7 Oklahoma corporation.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Are you sure you've never seen them
10 before?
11 A I don't recall seeing this
12 particular document, no. It's possible I
13 have seen it. I don't recall it and I don't
14 believe I have.
15 Q To the best of your knowledge, were
16 there ever bribes paid to Mr. Anthony by
17 ARKLA?
18 A No, absolutely not, to the best of
19 my knowledge.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
21 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
22 Exhibit 16.
407
1 (McLarty Deposition Exhibit
2 No. 16 was marked for
3 identification.)
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q This is an article in Business Week
6 entitled, "Skeletons in Mack McLarty's
7 Closet?"
8 Have you ever seen this article
9 before?
10 A I have.
11 Q Is there anything in this article
12 that you consider to be false?
13 A Quite a bit.
14 Q Did you ever advise Business Week
15 of this?
16 A I did.
17 Q Who at Business Week?
18 A I believe the reporter was advised
19 by Mr. McCurry, and then I think I talked to
20 the editor of Business Week, I believe, after
21 the article ran.
22 Q Do you know if anyone has ever
408
1 threatened Business Week with a libel suit?
2 A I don't recall raising a libel suit
3 in my discussions with the editor, and
4 "threatened" would not be a characterization.
5 Q Do you know of anyone ever having
6 done so?
7 A Mr. Klayman, sitting here today, I
8 don't remember whether that was discussed
9 with Business Week or not.
10 Q Has anyone ever requested a
11 retraction from Business Week of any anything
12 written in this article?
13 A Yes, I think I discussed with the
14 editor a retraction.
15 Q Did Business Week ever retract
16 anything?
17 A No, they did not. They said they
18 would accept letters stating our side of the
19 story.
20 Q Was such a letter submitted?
21 A I think letters were written to
22 Business Week.
409
1 Q Was it ever published?
2 A I believe they published it,
3 published some letters, yes.
4 Q Were those letters that you wrote?
5 A No, I believe Mr. McCurry wrote the
6 letter, because he had actually had the
7 interface with the reporter. And I believe
8 there were other letters written, but I don't
9 think I wrote a letter personally.
10 Q This was during the period
11 Mr. McCurry was press secretary?
12 A Correct.
13 Q How is it that Mr. McCurry, whose
14 salary was paid for by American taxpayers, is
15 writing letters about your activities before
16 you became White House Chief of Staff?
17 A Well, I believe this article has to
18 do with my position as a public official, and
19 the reporter had actually visited with
20 Mr. McCurry about these matters, and it
21 related, really, to these matters concerning
22 my responsibility as a public official.
410
1 So I think it was quite appropriate
2 he write this in that regard, Mr. Klayman.
3 Q Were you White House Chief of Staff
4 at the time?
5 A No, I was counselor to the
6 President at the time.
7 You mean of this article,
8 Mr. Klayman?
9 Q Yes.
10 A Yes, I was counselor to the
11 President, I believe, at the time of this
12 article.
13 Q Have you ever been convicted of a
14 crime?
15 A No, I've not.
16 Q Aside from the individuals you
17 mentioned at ARKLA, was anyone else involved
18 with ARKLA or any of your companies ever
19 convicted of a crime?
20 A Not to my knowledge. And I believe
21 my testimony was I don't know -- I don't
22 believe Mr. Anderson was convicted of
411
1 anything involving ARKLA, but I could be
2 wrong about that. I'm not familiar with the
3 case.
4 Q He was convicted of other things?
5 A I'm not familiar with the case
6 enough to make a response or a judgment I
7 might be mistaken in. There's no need for me
8 to speculate.
9 Q Do you know whether or not a
10 settlement was ever reached with Billy Dale
11 over the Travelgate case? Was he ever paid
12 his attorneys' fees?
13 A I believe I recall reading
14 something about that, Mr. Klayman. I can't
15 say for certainty whether a settlement was
16 reached or his attorneys' fees were paid or
17 not. I vaguely recall reading about it, but
18 I can't say for certainty.
19 Q Have you ever seen forms with the
20 name Bernard Nussbaum asking for FBI files?
21 A No.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: You only have about
412
1 ten seconds, Mr. Klayman. I'm just giving
2 you some warning.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further
4 questions at this time. We'll leave the
5 deposition open in the event further
6 information comes to light that warrants your
7 testimony.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: I have a couple of
9 questions that I will ask on
10 cross-examination.
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
12 video record at 6:14 p.m.
13 (Discussion off the record)
14 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
15 record at 6:15.
16 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT
17 EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT
18 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
19 Q Mr. McLarty, I want to refer you
20 back to the testimony where you testified of
21 the President being provided with FBI
22 information.
413
1 In every instance in which that
2 kind of information was provided to the
3 President, did it involve a current nominee
4 or candidate for high-ranking office in the
5 Clinton administration?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Leading
7 and also subject to my prior objections.
8 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
9 Q You can go ahead and answer.
10 MR. SPAEDER: You can answer.
11 THE WITNESS: In every instance
12 that I'm aware of, it either involved the
13 suitability of the candidate for a cabinet or
14 other senior-level post or regarding a matter
15 of national security.
16 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
17 Q The person whose identity I
18 instructed you not to reveal, was that person
19 a candidate or a nominee for a high-ranking
20 position in the Clinton administration or a
21 position of national security?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound,
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1 leading, vague, and ambiguous.
2 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
3 Q You can answer.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Subject to our
5 continuing motion for sanctions.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, that person was
7 a candidate for a cabinet position.
8 BY MS. SHAPIRO:
9 Q In the Clinton administration?
10 A That's correct.
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Thank you. I have no
12 further questions.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I have some
14 questions.
15 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR
16 PLAINTIFFS
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q When you were testifying before and
19 a break was taken, before you resumed the
20 testimony in this line of questioning, did
21 you discuss the matters that were just
22 questioned by Ms. Shapiro with her?
415
1 A No, I did not.
2 Q So when you heard her objection
3 when we reconvened the deposition wherein
4 she, in fact, objected to the matters you now
5 just testified to, that was the first time
6 you heard that information?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague and
8 incomprehensible.
9 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I
10 understand your question, Mr. Klayman.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further
12 questions.
13 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
14 video record at 6:17 p.m.
15 (Discussion off the record)
16 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
17 record at 6:18.
18 MR. SPAEDER: On behalf of the
19 witness, we do not waive signature. We'd
20 like an opportunity to review the transcript.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to the
22 assertion of the deposition as being kept
416
1 open.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought you already
3 did object, but that's our position.
4 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off video
5 record at 6:18 p.m.
6 (Whereupon, at 6:18 p.m., the
7 deposition of THOMAS MCLARTY III
8 was adjourned.)
9 * * * * *
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