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_____________________________________ CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, et al., Defendants. _____________________________________ |
) ) ) ) ) ) Civil No. 96-2123/97-1288 (RCL) ) ) ) ) ) |
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_____________________________________ JOHN MICHAEL GRIMLEY, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION, et al., Defendants. _____________________________________ |
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) |
3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER :
et al., :
4 :
Plaintiffs :
5 :
v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL)
6 :
FEDERAL BUREAU OF :
7 INVESTIGATION et al., :
:
8 Defendants. :
-------------------------x
9
10 Washington, D.C.
11 Tuesday, August 18, 1998
12 deposition of
13 LARRY POTTS
14 a witness, called for examination by counsel
15 for Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice and
16 agreement of counsel, beginning at
17 approximately 9:39 a.m., at the offices of
18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W.,
19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary
20 public in and for the District of Columbia,
21 when were present on behalf on the respective
22 parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
Judicial Watch, Inc.
4 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725
Washington, D.C. 20024
5 (202) 646-5172
6 On behalf of the Executive Office of the
President (EOP) and the Federal Bureau
7 of Investigations (FBI):
8 JULIA FAYNGOLD, ESQUIRE
ELIZABETH SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
9 Federal Programs Branch
Civil Division
10 United States Department of Justice
901 E Street N.W., 9th Floor
11 Washington, D.C. 20004
(202) 514-5302
12
JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE
13 Office of the General Counsel
Federal Bureau of Investigation
14 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20535
15 (202) 324-9655
16 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton:
17 PAUL GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE
Williams & Connolly
18 725 Twelfth Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
19 (202) 434-5175
20
21
22
3
1 AOOEARANCES (CONT'D):
2 On behalf of The White House:
3 SALLY P. PAXTON, ESQUIRE
The White House
4 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20502
5 (202) 456-5076
6 On behalf of Deponent:
7 IRA H. RAPHAELSON, ESQUIRE
ELIZABETH A. DELANEY, ESQUIRE
8 O'Melveny & Myers, L.L.P.
555 13th Street N.W.
9 Washington, D.C. 20004-1109
(202) 383-5359
10
11
C O N T E N T S
12
EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
13
Counsel for Plaintiffs 5
14
POTTS DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
15
No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments 39
16
17
* * * * *
18
19
20
21
22
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning
3 This is the video deposition of Larry Potts,
4 taken by the counsel for the Plaintiffs in
5 the matter of Cara Leslie Alexander v.
6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al. in
7 the U.S. District Court for the District of
8 Columbia, Case No. 96-2123, held in the
9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street,
10 Southwest, Washington, D.C., on this date,
11 August 18, 1998, and at the time indicated on
12 the video screen, which is 9:39 a.m.
13 My name is a Sylvanus Holley; I'm
14 the videographer. The court reporter today
15 is Joan Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting.
16 Will counsel now introduce
17 themselves?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman,
19 general counsel, Chairman of Judicial Watch.
20 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, President,
21 Judicial Watch.
22 MR. RAPHAELSON: Ira Raphaelson and
5
1 Elizabeth Delaney of O'Melveny & Myers,
2 L.L.P., on behalf of the nonparty witness,
3 Mr. Potts.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro,
5 Department of Justice, on behalf of the FBI
6 and EOP.
7 MR. PIFER: John Pifer from FBI.
8 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton with The
9 White House.
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney,
11 Williams & Connolly, on behalf of the First
12 Lady.
13 MS. FAYNGOLD: Julia Fayngold,
14 Department of Justice, on behalf of the FBI
15 and EOP.
16 Whereupon,
17 LARRY POTTS
18 was called as a witness and, having been
19 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
20 as follows:
21 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6
1 Q Please state your name.
2 A Larry Potts.
3 Q Mr. Potts, when were you born?
4 A In 1947, August 21.
5 Q And where did you attend high
6 school?
7 A At Loudoun Valley High School.
8 Q And where is that?
9 A In Loudoun County, Virginia.
10 Q And what year did you graduate?
11 A 1965.
12 Q Did you go on to college or
13 university?
14 A I did.
15 Q And where did you attend?
16 A University of Richmond.
17 Q And what did you major in during
18 university?
19 A Psychology.
20 Q And when did you graduate?
21 A 1969.
22 Q What, if anything, did you do
7
1 professionally in 1969, when you graduated?
2 A Entered the United States Army.
3 Q And how long did you stay in the
4 Army?
5 A A little over two years.
6 Q And what was your rank in the Army?
7 A When I left the service, I was
8 first lieutenant.
9 Q And what type of discharge did you
10 receive?
11 A Honorable.
12 Q And what year was that?
13 A 1972.
14 Q And what happened after that,
15 professionally speaking?
16 A I became a juvenile probation
17 officer.
18 Q Where did you become a juvenile
19 probation officer?
20 A In Loudoun County, Virginia.
21 Q What were your duties and
22 responsibilities as a juvenile probation
8
1 officer?
2 A Worked for the Loudoun County
3 juvenile court and prepared probation reports
4 for juveniles who were coming before the
5 court and then supervised their probation
6 when the judge ordered that they be placed on
7 probation.
8 Q How long did you stay in that
9 position?
10 A A little over two years.
11 Q What was the reason that you left?
12 A To enter the FBI.
13 Q And what year did you enter the
14 FBI?
15 A 1974.
16 Q Under what capacity did you enter
17 the FBI?
18 A As a special agent.
19 Q Was there a requirement of legal
20 training at that time?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q And during the time that you were
9
1 with the FBI could you please describe for us
2 your various positions and when they changed,
3 if at all?
4 A Special agent and after training
5 school was assigned to Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh
6 office. Then was transferred to the Johns-
7 town, Pennsylvania, resident agency, again as
8 a special agent.
9 Transferred to FBI headquarters as
10 a supervisor in 1978, then transferred in
11 1982, I believe, to Denver as a field
12 supervisor. I'm sorry. That might have been
13 '82 or '83, and then after two years in
14 Denver I was transferred back to FBI
15 headquarters as the unit chief of the public
16 corruption unit.
17 I was there only a year and was
18 transferred in 1986 to Boston, where I was
19 the assistant special agent in charge. In
20 1988 I was transferred back to Washington,
21 D.C., as the chief of the white collar crime
22 section.
10
1 In 1989, the end of 1989, I was
2 designated the inspector in charge of the
3 band pack investigation, which was the
4 investigation of the murder of judge --
5 federal Judge Robert Vance and the civil
6 rights worker Robbie Robinson.
7 Then in 1991 I was designated as
8 deputy assistant director of the Criminal
9 Investigative Division, 1992 as assistant
10 director of the Criminal Investigative
11 Division, in January of 1995, acting deputy
12 director, in June of 1995 I was transferred
13 to Quantico training academy, and then in
14 August of 1995 I was placed on administrative
15 leave and stayed on administrative leave
16 until my retirement in August of 1997.
17 Q What was the reason you were placed
18 on administrative leave?
19 MR. RAPHAELSON: I'm going to
20 object as to that question as it goes into
21 the Ruby Ridge area which has been foreclosed
22 for this deposition.
11
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking about
2 Ruby Ridge if there's another reason for
3 that. It's that the only reason?
4 MR. RAPHAELSON: I'm going to
5 instruct him not to answer.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no way of
7 knowing what the response would be. Is that
8 what you're stipulating?
9 MR. RAPHAELSON: I'm stipulating
10 that that that's the only reason.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Have you ever been convicted of a
13 crime?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Not even a traffic violation?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q During the time that you were at
18 the FBI, notwithstanding Ruby Ridge, not
19 asking questions about Ruby Ridge, were you
20 disciplined for anything?
21 A Would you repeat that again,
22 please?
12
1 Q I'm not asking about Ruby Ridge,
2 but during the time you were at the FBI, were
3 you disciplined for anything, taking that out
4 of the equation?
5 A Excluding Ruby Ridge?
6 Q Yes.
7 A No, sir.
8 Q During the time that you were at
9 the FBI, did you ever have an opportunity to
10 participate in conducting background security
11 checks on individuals either directly or
12 indirectly?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q When did the first such occurrence
15 happen?
16 A I think that the only time that I
17 would have conducted background checks would
18 have been probably -- actually conducted them
19 myself as a special agent would have been
20 during the time that I was assigned to the
21 Johnstown RA, which would have been from '75
22 through '77, 1975 through 1977.
13
1 Q In the course of doing background
2 checks was an FBI file prepared on
3 individuals being investigated?
4 MR. RAPHAELSON: Mr. Klayman, I'm
5 going to object to the form of the question.
6 He's indicated an almost 24-year career --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't give
8 testimony, Mr. Raphaelson.
9 MR. RAPHAELSON: I'm not giving
10 testimony.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: This is a common
12 technique which is used in these depositions.
13 If you want to object, give me your
14 objection. Don't provide testimony.
15 MR. RAPHAELSON: Mr. Klayman, I'm
16 not providing testimony. The witness has
17 indicated he's had a 24-year career. If you
18 want to specify a time, specify a time;
19 otherwise, I have an objection.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: He just testified to
21 the time when he worked doing background
22 security checks.
14
1 MR. RAPHAELSON: He did. Your
2 question didn't.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q When you were doing those
5 background security checks, what year was
6 that?
7 A I believe it was '75 through '77.
8 Q And in the course of doing the
9 background security checks, what types of
10 things did you do with regard to people that
11 were being investigated?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to just
13 give a cautionary instruction. The witness
14 can talk generally but not specifically about
15 law enforcement techniques.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q What kind of information
18 generically was gathered?
19 A It was generally background
20 information, which would -- normally these
21 background investigations would be a result
22 of someone who was an applicant or going to
15
1 be appointed to a position and they would
2 have to fill out a rather extensive form and
3 a lot of work was simply verifying the
4 information which they had furnished us on
5 the form.
6 Q And what was done to verify that
7 information?
8 A You would do record checks,
9 interviews. That's primarily it.
10 Q What are record checks?
11 A Check criminal records, civil
12 records.
13 Q Anything else?
14 A Educational records.
15 Q And you say interviews were done.
16 What do you mean by interviews?
17 A You'd go out and talk to people and
18 ask them questions about the applicant.
19 Q And what types of forms were filled
20 in when you talked to those people? Was
21 there a generic form that's used?
22 A Generally, background
16
1 investigations at that time were recorded on
2 -- primarily on insert forms or else were put
3 directly on to a teletype, which would have
4 been sent to FBI headquarters.
5 Q Is there a number to the type of
6 form which is used? Is it designated any
7 particular way?
8 A I don't know of a number for an
9 insert and the teletype. I don't know what
10 the number is for teletype.
11 Q Now, I take it an agent does the
12 interviews?
13 A Right.
14 Q And does he record the information
15 he gets on the interviews on paper? Is that
16 what you're saying?
17 A Generally either on an insert or on
18 a teletype, yes.
19 Q Now, the subject of the
20 investigation ordinarily doesn't get a chance
21 to see what's being put on that paper,
22 correct?
17
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And a lot of the information which
3 is obtained is information which never really
4 is followed up on, correct? I'm just talking
5 generally.
6 A Some of it is followed up on, and
7 there would probably be some that is not.
8 Q Some is unverified information
9 which is recorded?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, form.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q You can respond.
13 A I think that some of -- there is
14 unverified information for sure in some of
15 the backgrounds.
16 Q Subjects are not given an
17 opportunity, generally speaking, to rebut it,
18 correct?
19 A No, they're not, not always. There
20 would be -- certainly there would be times
21 when you would go back to the applicant.
22 There may be an interview of the applicant.
18
1 Especially if there's any highly negative
2 information, there could be a follow-up
3 interview with the applicant.
4 Q But it's not required?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
6 THE WITNESS: I don't know that
7 it's not required. It depends on the nature
8 of the information, and it depends on the
9 client or the entity that you're doing the
10 background investigation for.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q But there have been occasions, to
13 the best of your knowledge, when negative
14 information has not been brought to the
15 attention of the subject?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Is there any other type of
18 information gathered in a background security
19 check that you haven't mentioned?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
21 THE WITNESS: Not that I can think
22 of, no.
19
1 Q And is the information which you've
2 just described kept in a file commonly known
3 as an FBI file?
4 MR. RAPHAELSON: Mr. Klayman, I'm
5 going to object again to the form of the
6 question unless you're limiting it to time
7 frame Mr. Potts has identified.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q During the time that you were at
10 the FBI, did the procedure ever change that
11 you know of in conducting background security
12 checks?
13 A I'm sure that over a period of 24
14 years there were certain changes made. I
15 can't recall what they would have been, but
16 I'm sure that there would have been changes.
17 Q Not significant changes?
18 A Well, there might have been
19 significant changes in terms of what
20 questions were asked and what issues were to
21 be addressed.
22 Q But you can't remember any?
20
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Mis-
2 characterizes.
3 THE WITNESS: I think at some point
4 the use of drugs became an issue.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q The information which is gathered
7 in terms of these security checks is put in a
8 file?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And is there a particular name for
11 that file, generically speaking?
12 A I don't --
13 Q FBI file, is that one way you can
14 refer to it?
15 A I guess you could, yes.
16 Q During the time that you worked at
17 the FBI, did you ever get to know Howard
18 Shapiro?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Did you know him before he came to
21 work at the FBI?
22 A Yes, sir.
21
1 Q How did you get to meet
2 Mr. Shapiro?
3 A I met Mr. Shapiro in 1990, when he
4 was a member of the United States Attorney's
5 Office in the Southern District of New York.
6 Q And what were the circumstances of
7 meeting him, other than specifically?
8 A He was assigned to assist in the
9 prosecution of an investigation that I was
10 handling.
11 Q Did you work with him on that
12 investigation?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Aside from that investigation, did
15 you work with him in any capacity after that
16 investigation?
17 A Subsequently, he became general
18 counsel for the FBI, and I worked with him in
19 that capacity?
20 MR. RAPHAELSON: If we can have a
21 minute, Mr. Klayman? If we can have one
22 minute?
22
1 (Witness conferred with counsel)
2 THE WITNESS: I worked with
3 Mr. Shapiro when he was a member of the
4 United States Attorney's Office on both the
5 investigation and prosecution of that case.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Did there come a point in time when
8 you were with the FBI that you heard of a
9 controversy by the name of Travelgate?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q When was that?
12 A I cannot recall the time frame. It
13 was when -- it was during the time frame that
14 I was the assistant director of the Criminal
15 Investigative Division.
16 Q And how did that controversy come
17 to your attention?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the
19 relevancy.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond.
22 A There's been an objection.
23
1 Q It's just a relevancy objection.
2 You still have to respond.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Go ahead and answer.
4 MR. RAPHAELSON: You can answer.
5 THE WITNESS: I'm having a little
6 difficult time. I said that I became aware
7 of the controversy. The FBI was involved in
8 an investigation of the Travel Office, and
9 sometime subsequent to that I know that there
10 was an inquiry involving the Travel Office
11 issue, but I -- I'm not sure how I would have
12 -- I'm not sure how I first learned of that.
13 It may well have been because I was contacted
14 to be interviewed as a part of the, you know,
15 inquiry process.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Who contacted you to be inter-
18 viewed?
19 A I was interviewed by the FBI, some
20 FBI agents, I think, as well as Department of
21 Justice attorneys who were conducting an
22 inquiry.
24
1 Q Why, to the best of your knowledge,
2 were you contacted to be interviewed?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: I object and instruct
4 him not to answer as to what he learned from
5 the FBI or the Department of Justice as to
6 why he was being interviewed.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Travelgate is part of
8 Filegate. That's how Filegate arose,
9 Ms. Shapiro.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: That's not the basis
11 of my objection.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: And we're entitled to
13 learn, particularly since this investigation,
14 at least in terms of the FBI is concluded,
15 what happened.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: Not entitled to learn
17 about law enforcement techniques of the
18 Bureau and that's the basis of my objection.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: That's not what I
20 asked for. Certify it. We'll move the court
21 accordingly for sanctions.
22 MR. RAPHAELSON: Mr. Klayman, I'm
25
1 in the unenviable position of having to
2 instruct my client to the extent that he
3 receives an instruction from the Justice
4 Department relating to testimony relating to
5 his former official capacity where if there
6 is an objection by the government he's going
7 to have to honor it or face potential
8 criminal prosecution. I'm not going to allow
9 him to face potential criminal prosecution,
10 and so he's going to honor their objection
11 and instruction.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I haven't heard
13 a threat of criminal prosecution. If there
14 is such a threat, I think maybe we ought to
15 refer this to another entity because you're
16 not supposed to be threatening criminal
17 prosecution in a civil proceeding.
18 MR. RAPHAELSON: There is no threat
19 of criminal prosecution which has been
20 articulated to me or to my client. The law
21 governing the conduct of former government
22 officials is they are only authorized to
26
1 testify to the extent the Justice Department
2 authorizes them to testify as to their formal
3 official capacity. He has not been
4 authorized to answer that question.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Have you been threatened with
7 criminal prosecution, Mr. Potts, by any
8 entity in the Clinton Administration?
9 A No, sir.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you let him
11 answer now?
12 MR. RAPHAELSON: No, sir.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q What was your understanding as to
16 why you were being interviewed in the
17 Travelgate matter? What was your
18 involvement, if any, in Travelgate?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, compound.
20 He can answer the latter question.
21 THE WITNESS: My involvement in
22 Travelgate was that I was -- or the Travel
27
1 Office investigation was that I was the
2 assistant director of the Criminal
3 Investigative Division, and we were called
4 upon to conduct an investigation, and I
5 believe it was in -- I believe it was 1993
6 that we were called upon to conduct an
7 investigation of the Travel Office.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Who called upon you to conduct that
10 investigation?
11 A My recollection is that The White
12 House had contacted an individual in the
13 Criminal Investigative Division and had told
14 them that they had a possible criminal matter
15 that they would like for the FBI to look
16 into.
17 Q Who in The White House contacted an
18 individual or individuals in the Criminal
19 Investigative Division of the FBI?
20 A I believe it was Mr. Kennedy.
21 Q William Kennedy?
22 A Yes, sir.
28
1 Q How did you learn of such contacts?
2 A I was told by one of the deputy
3 assistant directors who worked for me in the
4 criminal division that there had been such a
5 contact.
6 Q Who was that? Who told you?
7 A I believe it was Danny Colson.
8 Q And what did Mr. Colson tell you
9 about that contact, specifically?
10 A I'm not sure that -- how specific I
11 can be, but I will do the best I can. I
12 remember he told me that there had been an
13 indication that there was possible fraud in
14 the Travel Office, that there had been a
15 phone call indicating there was possible
16 violation of law.
17 They had asked for an FBI
18 investigation, that the initial facts
19 indicated that it was possibly a white collar
20 crime matter, and as a result it had been
21 transferred to -- over to another section in
22 the criminal division that handles white
29
1 collar crime matters.
2 Q Was anything else said?
3 A I think he told me that it was
4 Mr. Kennedy who had called from The White
5 House, that he had contacted Jim Burke.
6 Q Who's Jim Burke?
7 A Jim Burke was special agent of the
8 FBI, a supervisory special agent of the FBI,
9 who was assigned to the Criminal
10 Investigative Division and who was
11 responsible for handling background
12 investigation.
13 Q Was this contact done orally or in
14 writing or both?
15 A My understanding, it was
16 telephonically.
17 Q Was there anything committed to
18 writing?
19 A Sir, I don't know.
20 Q What, if anything, happened after
21 you learned that there was a contact from the
22 White House?
30
1 A I was advised that one or more
2 agents had been sent over to The White House
3 to determine what the facts were and to
4 determine whether or not there should be an
5 investigation.
6 Q Which agents were sent over to The
7 White House?
8 A I don't know --
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Before
10 you answer, I'd just like to confer with
11 counsel a moment, please.
12 You can go ahead and answer the
13 question.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure but I
15 believe Pat Forran was one of the agents.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Did you play any role in sending
18 those agents over to The White House?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Who ordered them over to The White
21 House?
22 A Initially, I'm not sure whether --
31
1 it was one of the deputy assistant directors,
2 I believe.
3 Q Was FBI director Louis Freeh made
4 aware of this contact by The White House?
5 A I'm not sure that director Freeh
6 was director at that time.
7 Q Well, was Mr. Sessions made aware
8 of it?
9 A I believe that there was a -- I
10 believe it was reported up the chain of
11 command.
12 Q Do you know that for a fact?
13 A Don't know it for a fact.
14 Q Did there come a point in time when
15 other contacts were made by The White House
16 with the FBI concerning Travelgate?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Vague.
18 MR. RAPHAELSON: I'm going to
19 object to the characterization. Mr. Klayman,
20 you keep talking about Travelgate. Mr. Potts
21 has addressed the Travel Office
22 investigation. If you want to define your
32
1 term, I'll withdraw my objection.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Why don't we just
3 call that Travelgate? It's more exact.
4 Travel office investigation, Travelgate?
5 MR. RAPHAELSON: Why don't we adopt
6 his characterization since he's the witness?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm taking the
8 deposition. Travel Office investigation we
9 will refer to as Travelgate.
10 MR. RAPHAELSON: Please note a
11 continuing objection.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did there come a point in time when
14 there were other contacts between The White
15 House and the FBI over Travelgate?
16 A Well, as we conducted the
17 investigation, there would have been contact.
18 I'm not aware of what contacts they were.
19 Q Were you ultimately responsible for
20 supervising the FBI's part of this
21 investigation?
22 A In a very broad sense, that and
33
1 tens of thousands of other cases, but I did
2 not have a hands-on role in investigating the
3 Travel Office.
4 Q What do you mean by in a broad
5 sense?
6 A In that it was a Criminal
7 Investigative Division and I was the
8 assistant director of the Criminal
9 Investigative Division. The investigation
10 was handled by the Washington field office.
11 Q But did that fall under your
12 purview at the time, the Washington field
13 office?
14 A Criminal investigations fell under
15 my purview.
16 Q Who was the director of the
17 criminal division at that time?
18 A I was.
19 Q So that was your ultimate
20 responsibility?
21 A Right.
22 Q And the people who conducted that
34
1 investigation reported to you, correct?
2 A People who conducted that
3 investigation reported to a supervisor at
4 Washington field office who reported to an
5 assistant special agent in the Washington
6 field office who reported to a special agent
7 in charge of Washington field office. That's
8 the -- you don't have investigators reporting
9 directly to FBI headquarters or to the
10 assistant director of the criminal division.
11 Q But did you review reports from
12 time to time as to the progress of that
13 Travelgate investigation?
14 A I reviewed summaries that were
15 provided to me of the progress.
16 Q And who would provide those
17 summaries to you?
18 A People within the Criminal
19 Investigative Division who would receive
20 reports from the Washington field office.
21 Q And who were those people?
22 A I don't have any recollection of --
35
1 Q Did anyone in your division have
2 any contact with individuals in The White
3 House counsel's office concerning the
4 Travelgate investigation?
5 A Not that I recall, sir.
6 Q Does that mean you don't remember?
7 A It means that I don't recall any
8 contact.
9 Q Can you recall any other individual
10 at The White House besides William Kennedy
11 that the FBI had contact with over
12 Travelgate?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Anyone from Mrs. Clinton's office
15 at The White House?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Including Mrs. Clinton?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Did there come a point in time when
20 FBI files were provided concerning Billy Dale
21 and Mr. Brasseux to The White House?
22 A I'm not aware of FBI files being
36
1 provided to The White House.
2 Q Are you aware from published
3 reports that the FBI file of Billy Dale, the
4 head of the Travel Office, was obtained by
5 The White House?
6 A From published reports, I am, yes,
7 sir.
8 Q Were you at the FBI at the time
9 that that FBI file was reportedly provided to
10 the White House?
11 A I don't know. When it was
12 provided?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to the
14 terminology you're using.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Do you know who provided that
17 report from the FBI to The White House?
18 A I have no information that it was
19 provided other than public -- I don't know
20 who, no, sir.
21 Q Have you ever heard of Billy Dale?
22 A Yes, sir.
37
1 Q Who's Billy Dale?
2 A He was at the Travel Office.
3 Q Was any investigation undertaken
4 into the conduct of the FBI over the
5 Travelgate matter, any FBI investigation?
6 A I don't have any firsthand
7 knowledge that there was.
8 Q Do you have any secondhand
9 knowledge?
10 A I have public reports that there
11 were, yes, sir.
12 Q And what do you know from public
13 reports about any such investigation?
14 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection to the
15 relevance of this type of an inquiry. You
16 may answer.
17 THE WITNESS: I just simply know
18 that there were public reports that there was
19 an inquiry, yes, sir.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Have you ever been called before
22 the grand jury by Kenneth Starr in the
38
1 Travelgate matter?
2 A No, sir.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Rele-
4 vancy.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q You can respond.
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Have you ever been questioned by
9 anybody on the Independent Counsel's staff
10 about Travelgate?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q When I use the word "Filegate," do
13 you know what I'm referring to?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Have you ever been questioned by
16 anyone in Ken Starr's Independent Counsel
17 office about Filegate?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q I take it you haven't been called
20 in front of the grand jury?
21 A No, sir.
22 MR. RAPHAELSON: In connection with
39
1 Filegate?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Do you know of anyone who has been
5 questioned by Ken Starr and his office
6 concerning Filegate or Travelgate?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You can respond.
10 A No, I don't know.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: You were served with
12 a subpoena in this case, and I'll have that
13 marked as Exhibit 1.
14 (Potts Deposition Exhibit No. 1
15 was marked for identification.)
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Showing you a copy of Exhibit 1,
18 have you seen this document before?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q When did you see it?
21 A I saw it when it was served --
22 provided to my attorney, who provided it to
40
1 me.
2 Q Have you produced any documents
3 today in response to Exhibit 1, the subpoena
4 duces tecum that was served upon you?
5 A My attorney has documents.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we please have
7 those documents?
8 MR. RAPHAELSON: The record should
9 reflect that in discussions between
10 Ms. Delaney and representatives of your
11 office, Mr. Klayman, we were instructed to
12 make multiple copies for which your office
13 will be reimbursing my firm.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll be happy to.
15 MR. RAPHAELSON: As well as to make
16 the original available, I believe, for
17 inspection and to be returned to us.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q I take it, Mr. Potts, the only
20 thing you have produced is your own
21 deposition which was taken before the House
22 of Representatives on July 26, 1996?
41
1 MR. RAPHAELSON: There's a second
2 document behind it, Mr. Klayman.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Have you produced the deposition of
5 Terry Lenzner taken in this lawsuit,
6 Alexander v. FBI, on March 13, 1998?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q That's all that you're producing?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's take a
11 five-minute break.
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
13 video record at 10:14.
14 (Recess)
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on
16 video record at 10:23.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Mr. Potts, Exhibit 1, this is the
19 subpoena, did you search for documents in
20 response to Exhibit 1?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q What did you do to search for
42
1 documents in response to Exhibit 1?
2 A I reviewed the subpoena. I
3 searched for documents at my home in the
4 office area where they would be if I had any,
5 and then I searched my office, my current
6 office, for any documents that might be
7 relevant.
8 Q Where is your current office?
9 A At 1140 Connecticut Avenue N.W.
10 Q When you left the FBI, what year
11 was that?
12 A In 1997.
13 Q And did you take employment after
14 you left the FBI at some point?
15 A Yes, sir, I did.
16 Q When was that?
17 A In August -- I'm sorry, in
18 September of 1997.
19 Q And where did you gain employment?
20 A With the Investigative Group
21 International.
22 Q Is that a group that's owned by
43
1 Terry Lenzner?
2 A Yes, sir, it is.
3 Q Now, when you left the FBI, did you
4 leave with any documents?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Didn't take any documents with you?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q When you searched for documents at
9 your house, did anyone assist you in that
10 search?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Where did you look for documents in
13 your house?
14 A In my desk and in some boxes that I
15 had around my desk.
16 Q If you didn't take any documents
17 from the FBI, why did you even search your
18 house?
19 A Because I was looking for any
20 documents that might be responsive.
21 Q What were your criteria for looking
22 for these documents?
44
1 A The subpoena.
2 Q What made you think you might have
3 some documents?
4 A Because I'd been in the FBI for 24
5 years, and I wanted to look to see if I had
6 any documents that were responsive, and I
7 turned one over --
8 Q Do you think that maybe you did
9 take some documents from the FBI when you
10 left?
11 A I searched, and any documents that
12 I found that I thought might be responsive I
13 turned over to my attorneys, and anything
14 that is responsive and isn't privileged I've
15 turned over to you.
16 Q Are you saying uncategorically that
17 you didn't take any documents when you left
18 the FBI, no documents, diskettes, Dictaphone
19 recordings, anything of that kind?
20 A That's right.
21 Q And where did you search for
22 documents at IGI in your office?
45
1 A In my office, in my desk and in my
2 bookcase.
3 Q What led you to believe that you
4 might have documents in your office at IGI
5 that were responsive to Judicial Watch's
6 subpoena?
7 A There's nothing that led me to
8 believe that I might have them. I just
9 simply believed that, if I had any documents,
10 they'd either be at my house or they'd be in
11 my office.
12 Q Now, during the time that you were
13 at the FBI, did you ever discuss the FBI file
14 matter known as Filegate with anyone.
15 A Not that I recall, no, sir.
16 Q Does that mean you did not or you
17 just can't recall?
18 A I don't recall any such
19 conversation.
20 Q Did the FBI file controversy ever
21 come to your attention while you were at the
22 FBI?
46
1 A I don't know that it did.
2 Q What does that mean?
3 A It means exactly what I -- I don't
4 know that it did come to my attention. I
5 don't recall it coming to my attention while
6 I was there.
7 Q Did you produce any documents to
8 your attorney that weren't produced to
9 Judicial Watch pursuant to Judicial Watch's
10 subpoena, Exhibit 1?
11 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Have any documents
13 been withheld, Mr. Raphaelson?
14 MR. RAPHAELSON: We've noted our
15 observations.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't see a
17 privileged log, so it's hard for me to know
18 whether documents have been withheld.
19 MR. RAPHAELSON: Documents may have
20 been produced to attorneys that aren't
21 responsive to your subpoena, as broadly
22 worded as this subpoena is.
47
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Is your position that
2 there are no documents responsive which
3 haven't been produced?
4 MR. RAPHAELSON: There are no
5 responsive documents which have been produced
6 which are not otherwise privileged.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Does that mean that
8 there are documents which are privileged but
9 which are responsive that haven't been
10 produced?
11 MR. RAPHAELSON: One second.
12 We've produced all responsive
13 documents.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q How is it that you found employment
16 with IGI? How did you learn there was a job
17 there?
18 A I was first -- the first time I
19 heard about IGI was when I received a
20 telephone call from Terry Lenzner. I had
21 been listed as a reference for someone who
22 had retired from the FBI and was seeking
48
1 employment with IGI, and I'd been listed as a
2 reference. So he called me to interview me
3 about that particular person.
4 Q Who listed you as a reference?
5 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection,
6 relevance, but you may answer.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond.
9 A Dick Swenson.
10 Q Who's Dick Swenson?
11 A Dick Swenson's a retired FBI
12 official.
13 Q And what was the type of position
14 that you understood was available?
15 A I didn't understand that any
16 position was available at that time. I
17 subsequently received a call from Mr. Lenzner
18 indicating that he'd like to talk to me about
19 the possibility of employment, and at that
20 time the possibility I think was as the head
21 of the New York office.
22 Q Did there come a point in time when
49
1 you talked to Mr. Lenzner about what your
2 employment would entail?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q When did that occur?
5 A Probably in the summer of 1997.
6 Q Did you have a meeting or did you
7 talk about this on the phone?
8 A Several meetings.
9 Q And what did Mr. Lenzner tell you
10 that you would be doing if hired by IGI?
11 MR. RAPHAELSON: Mr. Klayman, I'm
12 going to enter a continuing objection as to
13 the relevance of the line of inquiry but
14 obviously allow the client to respond.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You can respond.
17 A Well, after I indicated that I was
18 not interested in the New York assignment, he
19 thought that there might be possibility of
20 employment in the corporate headquarters as a
21 Vice President of the company, and he was
22 particularly -- he thought that I could
50
1 particularly assist him in quality control
2 and new client development and training.
3 Q Were you still employed by the FBI
4 when you undertook these employment
5 discussions with Mr. Lenzner?
6 A Yes, sir, I was.
7 Q Is that permitted under FBI
8 regulations?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And what position was Mr. Swenson
11 being considered for?
12 A Mr. Swenson was being considered
13 for the head of the Boston office of IGI.
14 Q Was he subsequently employed by
15 IGI?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q In the course of your employment
18 discussions with Mr. Lenzner, did he tell you
19 that your FBI experience was important to his
20 company?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q What did he tell you about the
51
1 importance of your prior FBI experience?
2 A That my management and leadership
3 and experience in investigating would be an
4 aid to his company.
5 Q Did he discuss the fact that you
6 had contacts with the FBI that could be
7 important in terms of coming on board at IGI?
8 A Mostly, we talked about contacts
9 with former individuals who had been with
10 U.S. Attorney's Offices or the FBI who were
11 now with law firms or companies and the value
12 that that would be in trying to develop new
13 clients.
14 Q But he also discussed with you your
15 contacts with individuals still employed with
16 the FBI, that that's important as well?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Form.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A I'm not sure that he specifically
21 said that at all. We talked about the fact
22 that he would like to bring on more
52
1 experienced investigators who have law
2 enforcement backgrounds, and he thought that
3 I could be an assist in that.
4 Q During the time that you've been
5 with IGI, have you had any contact with any
6 employees or officials of the FBI?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And you began with IGI in September
9 of 1997, correct?
10 A Of '97, yes, sir.
11 Q Can you tell me the contacts that
12 you've had with individuals or employees of
13 the FBI since you began to work for IGI?
14 MR. RAPHAELSON: Object to the form
15 of the question and I instruct the witness
16 not to answer.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: On what basis?
18 MR. RAPHAELSON: Freedom of
19 associational privilege and a host of other
20 privileges, Mr. Klayman. If you have a
21 question directed in a relevant area to this
22 inquiry, please pose it.
53
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Freedom of
2 associational privilege?
3 MR. RAPHAELSON: Yes, sir.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Is this a new
5 privilege that even The White House hasn't
6 thought of yet?
7 MR. RAPHAELSON: Mr. Klayman, it's
8 your time on the deposition. I've made an
9 instruction to the client.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 Are you seconding that privilege,
12 Ms. Shapiro?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: I have nothing to do
14 with that. That's his private attorney, and
15 it doesn't involve his former work at the
16 FBI. I'm representing Mr. Potts in his
17 official capacity as a former FBI official.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q In the course of your duties and
20 responsibilities at IGI, you do have contact
21 with individuals at the FBI, correct?
22 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
54
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing
2 him not to answer?
3 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same instruction.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q During your time at IGI, have you
7 ever requested any information from any
8 individuals at the FBI?
9 A Yes, sir, I have.
10 Q What information have you request-
11 ed?
12 A I am on a terrorism committee,
13 University Studies Terrorism Committee, and
14 in attempting to assist that University
15 Studies Terrorism Committee I ask the FBI for
16 any publicly available information that they
17 would have about terrorism and structure and
18 issues so that I could use that in my work
19 with the committee.
20 I also was invited to the Aspen
21 Strategy Group as a member of a panel to
22 discuss law enforcement issues on terrorism,
55
1 and I asked them for publicly -- again,
2 publicly available information which would
3 assist me in that, and Argentina had
4 requested that I come to their country to
5 participate in a panel on their review of
6 terrorism bombings that they had had in 1992,
7 the current structure of their reorganization
8 of law enforcement, and again I asked for any
9 publicly available information that would
10 assist me in that.
11 Q During the time that you've been
12 associated with IGI, have you been involved
13 in investigating certain individuals and
14 entities?
15 MR. RAPHAELSON: Excuse me,
16 Mr. Klayman. If I can have one minute with
17 my client?
18 (Witness conferred with counsel)
19 MR. RAPHAELSON: Back on the
20 record, Mr. Klayman.
21 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, if I
22 might, I would just add to that that at no
56
1 time in my contact with anyone in the FBI
2 have I ever asked for any confidential
3 information or any nonpublic information,
4 haven't asked for it, wouldn't ask for it,
5 and haven't received it.
6 (Witness conferred with counsel)
7 THE WITNESS: Since leaving the
8 FBI.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: That's unbelievable.
10 I've never seen this in a deposition before,
11 Mr. Raphaelson. You actually leaned over to
12 him and gave him testimony since leaving the
13 FBI. I've never seen that before. That's
14 inappropriate conduct.
15 MR. RAPHAELSON: Mr. Klayman, your
16 characterizations and your experience you can
17 put in the record or not. It's not
18 inappropriate for me to advise a client to
19 specify a time frame.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: That's inappropriate
21 because you have a right of cross-
22 examination, and I'm willing to obviously
57
1 allow you to exercise that right, but for you
2 to interject in the middle of a question and
3 to insert the statement, "Since leaving the
4 FBI," is outrageous. Certify this. We'll be
5 moving for sanctions.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Now, Mr. Potts, when that question
8 was pending, did you discuss the answer that
9 you just gave with Mr. Raphaelson?
10 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection.
11 Instruct not to answer.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. I've
13 never seen conduct like this.
14 I'll ask you to reconsider,
15 Mr. Raphaelson. Are you going to allow him
16 to tell me who he's been in contact with at
17 the FBI since he's been working for IGI?
18 MR. RAPHAELSON: No, sir, other
19 than in the limited area that I have not
20 objected to, which is the request for
21 information from the FBI. That's an area I
22 have not objected to. If you want to inquire
58
1 as to who he had contact with in that limited
2 area, I have no objection.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q During the time that you've worked
5 for IGI, have you ever received any
6 documentation from the FBI?
7 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection. Asked
8 and answered. You may answer again.
9 THE WITNESS: It's the answer that
10 I --
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Other than what you've just
13 testified to.
14 A No, sir.
15 Q During the time you've worked for
16 IGI, have you ever been told by anyone at the
17 FBI where you could find information or
18 documentation about an individual or entity
19 that was being investigated by IGI?
20 A No.
21 Q Have you ever been provided by the
22 FBI, since you begun to work for IGI, any
59
1 sources or leads on any of the investigations
2 that IGI is conducting?
3 A No.
4 Q During the deposition of Mr. Terry
5 Lenzner he described you as co-managing IGI;
6 is that correct?
7 A That's flattering but I have over
8 the course of the last year assumed more
9 responsibility, but I work for Terry Lenzner.
10 He's the owner of the company. It's a
11 privately-held company, and I have -- like I
12 said, I've taken responsibility for quality
13 control, for conducting some investigations
14 that I brought in, and for supervising some
15 investigations.
16 Q Are you working on any matters
17 concerning Monica Lewinsky?
18 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection. I
19 instruct the witness not to answer any
20 question regarding any work he is doing at
21 IGI. Mr. Klayman, I indicated to you in
22 writing and by phone that I thought it would
60
1 be best to postpone this deposition till you
2 resolved the issues relating to those kinds
3 of questions with Mr. Lenzner. We've
4 proceeded as you've requested today. There
5 will be a uniform instruction not to answer
6 questions about the subject matters or
7 potential subject matters of any
8 investigations Mr. Potts is engaged in
9 professionally at this time.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Have you or IGI been involved in
13 investigating Linda Tripp?
14 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
15 Same instruction.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you or anyone at IGI been
19 involved in investigating Ken Starr in the
20 Office of Independent Counsel?
21 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection,
22 same instruction.
61
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Have you or anyone else at IGI been
4 involved in investigating Judicial Watch or
5 Larry Klayman?
6 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
7 Same instruction.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
9 MR. RAPHAELSON: Excuse me.
10 Additional objection of relevance.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Have you or anyone else at IGI been
13 involved in investigating any federal or
14 state judicial officer?
15 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection. Same
16 objection. Same instruction.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. I take
18 it you're going to give him the same
19 instruction no matter what subject I name?
20 MR. RAPHAELSON: That's what I
21 indicated earlier, that there would be that
22 blanket objection and instruction to any
62
1 question regarding subject matter of
2 investigations he is involved in.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q With regard to Linda Tripp have you
5 or anyone at IGI been in contact with the
6 Pentagon?
7 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
8 Same instruction.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q With regard to Linda Tripp, have
12 you or anyone at IGI had access to Linda
13 Tripp's Pentagon file?
14 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
15 Same instruction. I'm going to add an
16 additional objection to the entire line of
17 questioning that I've objected to thus far
18 which is the absence of the good faith basis
19 for the question as to Mr. Potts' involve-
20 ment.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
63
1 Q Have you or anyone at IGI had
2 access to anybody at The White House since
3 you began working there in 1997, working at
4 IGI?
5 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection to the
6 form of the question.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond.
9 A I can't answer for -- I don't know
10 what you mean by "access."
11 Q Have you or anyone at IGI since you
12 began working at IGI had contact with anyone
13 at The White House?
14 MR. RAPHAELSON: Objection to the
15 form of the question. I ask that you --
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q You can respond.
18 MR. RAPHAELSON: I'm going to
19 instruct him not to answer. I'm going to ask
20 that you ask a noncompound question.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: You're instructing
22 him on that basis not to answer?
64
1 MR. RAPHAELSON: Yes.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Since September of 1997 do you know
5 of anyone at IGI who has had contact with any
6 individual at The White House?
7 MR. RAPHAELSON: Mr. Klayman,
8 that's the same -- never mind, it's not the
9 same. Withdrawn.
10 Excuse me, no, I'm not going to
11 withdraw. I'm going to interject the same
12 objection. It could have a tendency to
13 reveal a client, and so I will object. Same
14 grounds. Same instruction.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Since September of 1997 have you or
17 anyone else at IGI had contact with Anthony
18 Pellicano?
19 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
20 Same instruction.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
65
1 Q Since September of 1997, have you
2 or anyone at IGI had any contact with a Jack
3 Palladino?
4 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection
5 same instruction.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Since 1997 have you or anyone else
9 at IGI have had any contact with a Gloria
10 Sutherland?
11 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
12 Same instruction.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Since September of 1997 have you or
16 anyone else at IGI had contact with a Kenneth
17 Bacon?
18 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
19 Same instruction.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q With a Clifford Burnet?
22 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
66
1 Same instruction.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q With Terry Good, director of Office
4 of Records Management at The White House?
5 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
6 Same instruction.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q James Carville?
9 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection
10 same instruction.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Jane Mayer of the New Yorker?
13 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
14 Same instruction.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Sidney Blumenthal of The White
17 House?
18 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection,
19 same instruction.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Mrs. Hillary Clinton?
22 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
67
1 Same instruction.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q President Bill Clinton?
4 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
5 Same instruction.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Erskine Bowles?
8 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection,
9 same instruction.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Ann Lewis?
12 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
13 Same instruction.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Mike McCurry?
16 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
17 Same instruction.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Rahm Emanuel?
20 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
21 Same instruction.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
68
1 Q During the period from September
2 1997 to present to the best of your knowledge
3 has anyone at IGI received any documents from
4 White House files?
5 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
6 Same instruction.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q From September 1997, have you or
10 anyone else received copies of letters from
11 The White House written by Kathleen Willey to
12 the President?
13 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
14 Same instruction.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Since September of 1997 up to the
18 present, have you received any information
19 from Linda Tripp's Pentagon file?
20 A Have I received any information?
21 Q You or anyone at IGI?
22 MR. RAPHAELSON: Same objection.
69
1 Same instruction.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. We are
3 going to postpone this deposition.
4 We will be moving for relief with
5 the court. I'm going to ask for an expedited
6 copy of the transcript. We will be asking
7 for sanctions. This deposition's adjourned.
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
9 video record at 10:49.
10 MR. RAPHAELSON: Not till I finish
11 my statement we're not.
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video
13 record at 10:49.
14 MR. RAPHAELSON: I would note for
15 the record that I appreciate Mr. Klayman's
16 courtesies from the time that he served the
17 first subpoena in connection with my
18 recuperation from quadruple by-pass surgery.
19 I would note also for the record
20 that the objections and instructions which
21 were given here today were indicated to
22 Mr. Klayman in advance of today's deposition,
70
1 the necessity of which are strictly by virtue
2 of the fact that Mr. Klayman has not yet
3 resolved with Mr. Lenzner the scope of the
4 privileges asserted by Mr. Lenzner in that
5 deposition.
6 Mr. Potts cannot be put in a
7 position of revealing client confidences,
8 particularly when those precise issues have
9 been left partially joined by Mr. Klayman
10 with Mr. Potts's employer.
11 We can certify up whatever
12 Mr. Klayman would like, and I would also like
13 Mr. Klayman to note to the extent that he's
14 only going to provide the court with the
15 certified portion, what he calls the
16 certified portion of the video transcript,
17 that there was a portion of the video
18 transcript after two sets of objections where
19 he asked a question that I did not object to
20 and to which an answer was presented because
21 the question was proper in form and that I
22 did not object to the second-to-the-last
71
1 question that he posed which I only objected
2 to when he rephrased it.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
4 reflect that we are going to provide the
5 court with an entire copy of the transcript.
6 The record is clear in terms of what the
7 understandings are between the parties.
8 I take issue with your
9 characterization, but we will be moving the
10 court for expedited relief, and this
11 deposition is adjourned.
12 MR. RAPHAELSON: Adjourned.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me just say
14 before we adjourn that we also object to this
15 as wasteful of the parties' time and efforts.
16 This issue should have been resolved ahead of
17 time and we object to having to come back for
18 another deposition.
19 MR. GAFFNEY: I join Ms. Shapiro's
20 objections.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: We will be moving
22 accordingly. Thank you.
72
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video record
2 at 10:52.
3 (Whereupon, at 10:52 a.m., the
4 deposition of LARRY POTTS was
5 adjourned.)
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