151
1 respond to the press.
2 Q Was there anyone else assisting you
3 in providing policy and political advice to
4 the President at that time?
5 A No.
6 Q You were the number one guy?
7 A Well, a lot of people would dispute
8 that, but I was the only person with that
9 title.
10 Q Did you also provide policy and
11 political advice to Hillary Rodham Clinton as
12 part of your duties and responsibilities?
13 A That wasn't my -- was one of my
14 specified duties. If Mrs. Clinton called me
15 and asked my advice on something, I would try
16 to give my best advice.
17 Q But she did call you on a fairly
18 regular basis?
19 A Sure, depending on, you know, the
20 time.
21 Q What were Mrs. Clinton's duties and
22 responsibilities between the date the
152
1 administration became the administration in
2 January 20th, 1993, and the date that you
3 left your job as communications director?
4 What did you perceive to be Hillary
5 Rodham Clinton's duties and responsibilities
6 as First Lady?
7 A Well, it wasn't for me to say what
8 her duties and responsibilities were.
9 Q From your perspective.
10 A Yeah, as First Lady of the United
11 States, she had a number of ceremonial
12 duties. Managing the East Wing of the White
13 House, managing the Social Office of the
14 White House, state dinners, receptions and
15 the like, and that's quite a bit of work.
16 She also has to represent and be
17 with the President on state occasions,
18 different public events.
19 Beyond that she -- at the beginning
20 of the administration she was quite involved
21 in the development of the President's health
22 care policy.
153
1 Q Is it not the case that Hillary
2 Rodham Clinton was the day-to-day manager of
3 the White House, in terms of making sure it
4 functioned?
5 A No.
6 Q What's funny about that?
7 A What's funny about that is it's a
8 very leading question. It contains the
9 conclusion within the question. It's not
10 really a question. It's a political
11 statement.
12 Q I'm asking you the question.
13 A I -- and I answered it.
14 Q Isn't it true she managed the White
15 House, hands-on control over matters other
16 than health care?
17 A I already answered that question?
18 Q Is the answer yes?
19 THE WITNESS: Could you, please,
20 read my answer two questions ago?
21 (The reporter read the record
22 as requested.)
154
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Did she have hands-on control on
3 health care issues at that time?
4 A She was managing health care, as
5 the President publicly announced in early
6 January 1993.
7 Q I take it Mrs. Clinton sometimes
8 consulted with you over controversies
9 surrounding the White House such as
10 Whitewater, Travelgate, Filegate, et cetera?
11 A She may ask me questions about it,
12 sure. I never talked to her about the FBI
13 files. Again, to get to the matter at hand,
14 I never discussed the FBI files. Let me be
15 clear and unequivocal on that. I never
16 discussed the FBI files matter with the First
17 Lady, I have no independent knowledge of the
18 FBI files matter.
19 To my knowledge, the First Lady had
20 no independent knowledge of the FBI files
21 matter. She neither directed anyone to get
22 the FBI files nor read them after they came
155
1 out, neither did I. I never discussed it
2 with her.
3 Q If you never discussed it with her,
4 how do you know she never had any firsthand
5 knowledge?
6 A I said to my knowledge at the
7 beginning of the sentence.
8 Q How are you so sure that she never
9 had no knowledge if you never discussed it
10 with her?
11 A Because since then I have read
12 numerous -- I mean numerous press accounts,
13 matters before the congressional committees
14 where that was her testimony.
15 You know, this is -- now we're
16 several years after the fact this has been
17 looked into by a host of independent
18 organizations.
19 Q During the time that you were
20 communications director, did you ever discuss
21 the FBI files matter with the President?
22 A No.
156
1 Q Not even once?
2 A Nope.
3 Q Never even mentioned the word "FBI
4 files"?
5 A No.
6 Q Wasn't of interest?
7 A Absolutely not.
8 Q Minor matter? Not worthy of your
9 time?
10 A I hate to help you out with your
11 questions, but you asked me did I ever
12 mention it at a time when I was
13 communications director. I was
14 communications director up until May 30th or
15 May 31st, 1993. I never thought about FBI
16 files before May 30th, 1993.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I show you what I
18 will ask the court reporter to mark as
19 Exhibit 4.
20 (Stephanopoulos Deposition
21 Exhibit No. 4 was marked for
22 identification.)
157
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q I will show you what I've asked the
3 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 4.
4 A Yeah.
5 Q Have you ever seen this document
6 before, Mr. Stephanopoulos?
7 A No.
8 Q This is a memorandum that was
9 written by Agent Dennis Sculimbrene,
10 S-c-u-l-i-m-b-r-e-n-e. Can you turn your
11 attention to the second paragraph? I will
12 read this into the record, Bernard Nussbaum.
13 "Counsel to the President advised that he has
14 known the appointee for a period of time,
15 that he employed in the new administration.
16 He had come highly for a long period of time.
17 He was confident that the appointee
18 lives a circumspect life and was not aware of
19 any illegal drug or alcohol problems.
20 He said that the appointee will
21 work at the White House on security matters.
22 He said that in the short period of time that
158
1 the appointee has worked for him he has been
2 completely satisfied with his performance,
3 conduct and productivity. He recommended the
4 appointee for continued access in his current
5 capacity."
6 Does that refresh your recollection
7 as to whether you've ever seen this?
8 MR. BRAND: Did he say he didn't
9 remember seeing it?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, this may
11 refresh his recollection.
12 MR. BRAND: Yeah. I don't know
13 that it needs to be refreshed yet.
14 THE WITNESS: I've never seen this.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Perhaps I skipped over it. My
17 colleague tells me I did inadvertently.
18 Under that entry for Bernard
19 Nussbaum, "He had come highly recommended to
20 him by Hillary Clinton, who has known his
21 mother for a longer period of time."
22 Do you see that statement?
159
1 A I do.
2 Q Are you aware that Sculimbrene
3 wrote a memo of an interview he had with
4 Nussbaum where he recorded that Livingstone
5 was actually recommended by Hillary Clinton?
6 A I know that it's been reported in
7 the press. I also know that Mrs. Clinton and
8 Craig Livingstone's mother, according to
9 subsequent press reports that I have read
10 since this came up, had both denied that
11 being the case.
12 Q Did you ever discuss this issue of
13 Hillary Clinton's recommendation of Craig
14 Livingstone, as alleged, with Mrs. Clinton?
15 A No.
16 Q Did you ever discuss it with the
17 President?
18 A I'm not going to respond to my
19 conversations with the President.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Just a moment.
21 (Counsel conferred with
22 witness)
160
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
2 reflect that Ms. Shapiro, Ms. Paxton and
3 Mr. Brand are consulting with the witness.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. The
5 answer to the previous question is no.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q No, what? You never discussed this
8 with the President?
9 A I did not.
10 Q You did not?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you ever discussed this issue
13 with anyone, whether Hillary Clinton strongly
14 recommended Craig Livingstone for the job as
15 Director of White House Security?
16 A Well, again, since reports were in
17 the press and since there was dozens of
18 articles about it and other congressional
19 investigations and it was a matter of public
20 record, I'm sure I have had discussions since
21 then. I did not have any discussions prior
22 to that.
161
1 Q Who have you had discussions with
2 since then?
3 A About?
4 Q About this issue of Hillary Clinton
5 recommending Craig Livingstone. Let's start
6 with inside the White House.
7 A I couldn't tell you. I mean I've
8 never had an independent investigation. I
9 was sure this matter was in the press at the
10 time. I remember it being in the press at
11 the time.
12 What I can say with certainty is
13 that when it was in the press, I'm sure it
14 was a matter of discussion, but I can't tell
15 you who I talked to or when.
16 Q Who would you have discussed it
17 with in the ordinary course of your duties
18 and responsibilities at the White House?
19 A If it was in the news that day,
20 anybody that I might have run into.
21 Q Who did you work with generally
22 other than the President in your first job as
162
1 communications director? Who was working for
2 you or who was working with you at the White
3 House?
4 A Well, again, maybe -- I mean I
5 can't believe that I'm having to refresh your
6 recollection of the timing of the case, but
7 when this story broke, I was no longer
8 communications director.
9 Q Well, let's take after you were
10 communications director. You're right.
11 Who did you discuss it with? Who
12 was in your entourage of people?
13 A I had no entourage. I had one
14 executive assistant. But I came into contact
15 with anywhere from 2 dozen to 400 people a
16 day.
17 Q Let's drop this right now. We'll
18 get back to it.
19 Did there come a point in time when
20 your job changed at the White House?
21 A As I said, my job changed on May
22 30th or so 1993.
163
1 Q What was your new title?
2 A Senior advisor to the President for
3 policy and strategy.
4 Q Why did you job title change?
5 A That is --
6 Q Were you fired from your previous
7 job?
8 A I was moved.
9 Q You were fired from that job, were
10 you not?
11 A I don't think so, but I -- I could
12 have done a better job in my first job.
13 Q It was not a voluntary change, was
14 it not?
15 A Well, I think it could have been
16 handled better, but I was very happy for the
17 change.
18 Q Who is it that told you that your
19 job was going to be changed?
20 A Mack McLarty.
21 Q What did Mack McLarty tell you were
22 the reasons, if any, for your change?
164
1 MS. SHAPIRO: Hang on a second,
2 please.
3 (Counsel conferred with
4 witness)
5 MS. SHAPIRO: You can ask the
6 question again. I'm fairly confident I'm
7 going to instruct him not to answer, but you
8 can try to phrase it in such a way as to not
9 reveal any Presidential communications.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q What was your knowledge as to why
12 your job was being changed?
13 A There were a lot of different
14 reasons for it, but I will just be frank with
15 you right now, I mean if you want to ask me
16 about the FBI files, I'll be happy to answer
17 it.
18 But I -- I fail to see what that
19 move on May 30th, 1993, that had nothing to
20 do with the FBI files, before it ever broke,
21 how that could be helpful. I was moved for a
22 variety of reasons.
165
1 Q What were the reasons that you know
2 you were moved for?
3 A For organizational matters inside
4 the White House.
5 Q Because your superiors were
6 dissatisfied with your organizational
7 abilities?
8 A You'll have to ask them.
9 Q Is that what you were told?
10 A You can ask them.
11 Q Is it your independent knowledge as
12 of today that you were moved because you were
13 considered to be disorganized?
14 A That wasn't my answer.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to getting
16 into any of the reasons that --
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q I don't know what organizational
19 means and I'm entitled to ask.
20 A What I do know is that my being
21 moved had nothing to do with the FBI files
22 matter, if you would like to ask me about the
166
1 FBI files matter.
2 Q I'm entitled to ask you for a
3 number of different reasons. Your lawyers
4 know why I can ask you these questions and
5 either we can make it simple or we can make
6 it hard. I'm a patient person.
7 A Me too. Probably not as patient as
8 you though.
9 Q Probably not.
10 MR. BRAND: He answered the
11 question. He said for organizational reasons
12 inside the White House.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's not what
14 I'm looking for in terms of the reasons.
15 That's a vague response.
16 MR. BRAND: You can't make him
17 testify of things he doesn't know.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Were you removed because people
20 were dissatisfied with your prior job
21 performance?
22 MR. BRAND: Well, again, you keep
167
1 putting words in his mouth. He tells you
2 that he's done it for organizational reasons
3 and you say were you removed because people
4 weren't happy.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to,
6 Mr. Brand, as you know --
7 MR. BRAND: Larry, again, if you
8 want to testify, come on over and put the
9 mike on and testify.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to ask
11 leading questions. This is, obviously, an
12 adverse witness. There's no dispute that
13 he's hostile.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Were you moved because people were
16 unhappy? Were you moved because of your job
17 performance?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object
19 at this point. This is completely irrelevant
20 and besides the relevancy, this gets into an
21 area where it reveals privileged
22 communications, and I'm going to instruct the
168
1 witness not to answer questions about why he
2 wasn't or was removed from his prior
3 position.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you representing
6 him at this?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, I am.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: In what capacity?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: In his capacity as a
10 former employee of the White House.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Brand, are you
12 representing him personally?
13 MR. BRAND: I'm representing him
14 for all the purposes that conceivably could
15 come up out of this deposition.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q To the best of your knowledge,
18 Mr. Stephanopoulos, were you removed because
19 people were dissatisfied with your
20 performance? Yes or no?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: You have asked that
22 question and I've instructed the witness not
169
1 to answer.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Was the basis for your removal
4 dishonesty?
5 MS. SHAPIRO: That's the same
6 question asked in a another way. I'm
7 instructing the witness not to answer the
8 question. I think you've certified it. We
9 can address it however you want to address it
10 and we'll move on.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Were you disciplined at the White
14 House? Is that why you were removed?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Again, it's the same
16 question. I'm instructing him not to answer
17 that question.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Were you removed because you had
21 breached national security?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Again, I object to
170
1 the line of questioning. It goes to the
2 privileged communication, the same privileged
3 communication that you're trying to elicit
4 answers, and I'm instructing him not to
5 answer these questions.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Were you removed because you had
8 access to FBI files improperly?
9 MS. SHAPIRO: He can answer that
10 question.
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: You've waived every
13 objection.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: No, I don't think so.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you going to let
16 him answer the others?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: No.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: I told you -- well,
20 we're not going to get into a legal
21 discussion.
22 THE WITNESS: But for the record,
171
1 the answer to that is no.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q What were the duties and
4 responsibilities that were assigned to you in
5 your second post at the White House?
6 MR. BRAND: Asked and answered.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I got the title. I
8 didn't get the duties and responsibilities.
9 MR. BRAND: You got the duties. He
10 said that he was responsible for policy, he
11 gave you the specific areas of the policy,
12 and political advice based on that.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Is that your first job or your
15 second job?
16 A It was the second one, as I
17 answered.
18 Q Now, how long did you stay at the
19 White House?
20 A I already answered that.
21 Q Can you just give us a frame of
22 reference? If will be faster?
172
1 MR. BRAND: It's already in the
2 record. It's been testified to as the
3 precise date he was there and when he left.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Give us the quick response.
6 A I already answered that question.
7 Q Do you want to play games or what?
8 MR. BRAND: No, you're the one
9 playing games, Larry.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not playing any
11 games.
12 MR. BRAND: These questions have
13 already been asked. You are taking up the
14 time of this witness going over ground you've
15 already asked.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just trying to
17 get a frame of --
18 MR. BRAND: I'm not going to
19 tolerate this and we'll end the deposition,
20 yes, we will, and you can go to Judge
21 Lamberth, and I will be right there with you,
22 and we can go over the abusive nature of this
173
1 practice of yours of going over questions
2 that were already asked. No witness has to
3 put up with that kind of nonsense.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Brand, you can do
5 whatever you want at your own risk. If you
6 want to end the deposition on your own, I
7 don't condone it, but I will certainly move
8 for sanctions.
9 MR. BRAND: I haven't done that
10 yet, but I will if you continue repeatedly
11 asking the same questions and if you don't
12 listen to his testimony, go back and read it
13 after the fact. But we're not going to go
14 over the same ground two and three and four
15 times.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You're instructing
17 him not to answer?
18 THE WITNESS: I already answered
19 it.
20 MR. BRAND: Yes. It's been asked
21 and answered.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
174
1 MR. BRAND: Certify it to the Pope
2 if you want, Larry, but we're not going to
3 have this go on for six more hours.
4 THE WITNESS: Could I ask the court
5 reporter to --
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Why is it necessary
7 to disparage somebody's religion, Mr. Brand,
8 incidentally, a religion that you're not a
9 part of. I don't think that's appropriate.
10 MR. BRAND: How do you know what my
11 religion is?
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't think
13 it's necessary to disparage Catholics?
14 THE WITNESS: May I please ask the
15 court reporter to find the answer when I said
16 I left the White House.
17 (The reporter read the record
18 as requested.)
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Now, during that period did the FBI
21 files controversy arise?
22 A Certainly.
175
1 Q How did you learn about it?
2 A I read the newspaper or got a phone
3 call from reporter. I don't know which one.
4 Q What reporter did you get a phone
5 call from?
6 A I don't remember. Everybody was
7 working on it.
8 Q Do you remember the name of the
9 publication?
10 A It was one of the major
11 publications. I don't remember which one.
12 Q What did you learn about the files
13 controversy at that time?
14 A I don't remember what I learned at
15 that moment. I did learn that files had been
16 collected mistakenly over time.
17 Q You learned that from the reporter?
18 A Well, from everything that happened
19 after the story broke.
20 Q The reporter didn't tell you that
21 the files were mistakenly obtained, did he or
22 she?
176
1 A I don't remember what the reporter
2 said exactly.
3 Q Was it a he or she?
4 A Couldn't tell you.
5 Q What did you do after you found
6 that out from this particular reporter?
7 A I don't remember precisely.
8 Q Tell us imprecisely?
9 A It was a matter of public record
10 for some time in the White House. I'm
11 certain that at various times it was a matter
12 of discussion.
13 I couldn't detail when the
14 discussions were -- were in the -- I do know
15 that as this matter was looked at -- again, I
16 don't remember the day it broke or the day it
17 stopped being written about.
18 But I do remember from the day it
19 broke it was investigated by the senate, the
20 house, the Office of Independent Counsel and
21 over --
22 Q I'm not asking you for that.
177
1 Please don't waste my time.
2 A And over the course of that period
3 of time, the period of time in which I was in
4 the White House, January 1993 through
5 December 31st, 1996, I discovered and learned
6 and read mostly on the public record -- I
7 would say probably almost entirely on the
8 public record -- that this was a mistake.
9 That Anthony Marceca and Craig
10 Livingstone acted on their own. That was my
11 judgment based on everything that I read.
12 What I can testify with certainty is that I
13 never ordered them to be collected. I never
14 saw an FBI file in my life.
15 Q I object to this as nonresponsive.
16 I move to strike and you're taking up my
17 time.
18 A I'm happy to leave if you want me
19 to leave.
20 Q Oh, you're not going to leave
21 believe me. I'm sure you would be happy to
22 leave.
178
1 After you discovered that this
2 occurred, who did you go and talk to inside
3 the White House after this reporter called
4 you?
5 A I might have talked to any one of a
6 number of people.
7 Q Who?
8 A Oh, at some point I'm certain I
9 spoke to Mike McCurry, at some point I'm sure
10 I spoke to Rahm Emanuel, at some point I'm
11 sure I spoke to Jane Sherburne. I don't know
12 when or where or how. It was a long time.
13 Q This was obviously a pretty
14 significant matter when it broke, was it not?
15 A Well, there were significant
16 questions raised. I think the more it was
17 looked into it the more, the less significant
18 it seemed to be.
19 Q I'm asking at the time. At the
20 time was it considered to be an important
21 matter at the White House?
22 A It was considered to be a serious
179
1 question.
2 Q Did you seek or do you know of
3 anyone else seeking any kind of clarification
4 as to whether the White House, having
5 obtained FBI files, would raise any legal
6 ramifications?
7 A I didn't. That would be the White
8 House counsel I guess, but I didn't.
9 Q Did you consult with the White
10 House counsel at the time?
11 A It's very -- I'm certain that I had
12 discussions with them at the time. I really
13 don't know if the word "consult" is the right
14 word.
15 Q Who?
16 A At least Jane Sherburne, maybe
17 others.
18 Q Did you go see her or did she call
19 you?
20 A I don't remember.
21 Q What did you discuss with Rham
22 Emanuel about the FBI file matter when it
180
1 broke?
2 A If I discussed it with him. I was
3 just trying to be comprehensive. I can't
4 swear that I discussed it with him. If I
5 did, it would be how much of a political
6 problem is this.
7 Q What did Mr. Rham Emanuel tell you?
8 A I don't know.
9 MS. SHAPIRO: Object.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: You know, you don't
11 have a privilege here because that's what
12 this case is about. Are you saying I can't
13 ask any questions? Is that what you're
14 saying?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: No, I'm objecting to
16 asking about specific questions that rise to
17 the level of being Presidential
18 communications.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: How is Rham Emanuel
20 Presidential communications?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm not going to get
22 into a legal argument about it.
181
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing
2 him not to answer?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Not at the moment,
4 but I'm cautioning you --
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Then let him answer.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: -- that you're
7 getting into an area which I will instruct.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't need your
9 caution, Ms. Shapiro.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Please don't speak
11 over me.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I wasn't.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm giving you the
14 courtesy of speaking when you speak. Can you
15 do the same for me?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, either you make
17 an objection or you don't make an objection.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I objected.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: One or the other, in
20 or out, up or down. Are you making an
21 objection?
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes.
182
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you asking him
2 not to respond?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Not at the moment.
4 I'm cautioning you that you're entering an
5 area in which I will.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, don't caution
7 me. Just make an objection.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q What did Mr. Emanuel tell you.
10 A I don't remember.
11 Q General subject matter, do you
12 remember what he told you?
13 A I already answered that.
14 Q Was he concerned?
15 A I don't remember the conversation.
16 You asked me is it possible I talked to him
17 and I said it's possible I talked to him. I
18 don't remember the specific conversation.
19 Q Have you ever talked to Rham
20 Emanuel at all about this?
21 A I said it's very possible that I
22 have.
183
1 Q What was discussed with Mr. Emanuel
2 up to the time you left the White House about
3 files, FBI files?
4 A Probably didn't talk about it
5 again. I don't remember any specific
6 discussions.
7 Q What did you discuss with Mike
8 McCurry after this issue broke? Same
9 answers?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Jane Sherburne?
12 MS. SHAPIRO: That I object to on
13 the basis of attorney-client privilege.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q You probably can't remember anyway.
16 Can you remember what you said to her?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: You can testify only
18 if you can't remember, but any substance of
19 communications between Mr. Stephanopoulos
20 when he was employed at the White House and
21 counsel's office are privileged.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the
184
1 substance of the specific conversations.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Do you remember general substance?
4 A I think, generally, what I remember
5 is what later came out in the press, that
6 this was a mistake, an unauthorized mistake
7 by two people, which is -- which every
8 independent body has looked at this in
9 discovery.
10 Q I'm talking about that at the time,
11 Mr. Stephanopoulos.
12 A I gave my answer.
13 Q You can't remember?
14 A No, that's not what I said. You
15 just don't listen, do you?
16 Q Well, it just broke, the story just
17 broke and you already made the decision that
18 there was nothing to this even immediately on
19 the spot in your discussion with
20 Ms. Sherburne?
21 A That's not what I said either.
22 Q Then what did you discuss with
185
1 Ms. Sherburne around the time that the story
2 broke?
3 A I don't remember the specification
4 conversations, but I -- I do remember the
5 information that came out as the information
6 that was later reported in the press; this
7 was a mistake by two people, that it was not
8 something that was authorized by high levels
9 of the White House.
10 Frankly, it was something that none
11 of us ever knew about it. We were all quite
12 surprised by it and shocked and disappointed
13 about it and took steps to rectify it.
14 As the President announced pretty
15 close to the time the story broke, that he
16 was upset about this as well, that he took
17 steps to make sure it didn't happen again,
18 that as far as he could, there -- it was a
19 mistake.
20 Q Now, after the story broke you did
21 discuss the files matter with the President,
22 did you not?
186
1 MS. SHAPIRO: One moment.
2 (Counsel conferred with
3 witness)
4 MS. SHAPIRO: I will let the
5 witness answer yes or no. He will not,
6 though, reveal any substance of any
7 conversation.
8 THE WITNESS: My guess is that at
9 some point when he was being prepared to
10 answer press questions, I'm certain that this
11 matter came up in the briefing.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Was it a briefing between you and
14 the President or were other people present?
15 A I'm sure there were other people.
16 Q Who was present?
17 A I don't know, but, generally, it
18 may have included McCurry, it may have
19 included Rham. I don't know who else. It
20 could have included the Chief of Staff. I
21 mean --
22 Q Who was the Chief of Staff at the
187
1 time?
2 A Since you don't seem to remember at
3 the time who it was, maybe you can refresh my
4 memory. When was it?
5 Q Well, you were the one who was
6 advisor to the President. Who was the Chief
7 of Staff at the time?
8 A When did the story break?
9 Q Was it Panetta?
10 A When did the story break?
11 Q June '96.
12 A Oh, which would explain why I
13 wouldn't have known anything about it when I
14 was communications director in May of 1993.
15 In June of 1996, Mr. Leon Panetta were Chief
16 of Staff.
17 Q You were at your second job,
18 advisor in policy and politics, correct?
19 A Strategy.
20 Q Strategy?
21 A Political strategy, yeah.
22 Q Right. You had this briefing with
188
1 the President?
2 A I assume there were briefings
3 before the press conference. I can't tell
4 you the date.
5 Q Who called the briefing?
6 A I don't know.
7 Q Who would have called in the
8 ordinary course? There have been several
9 scandals in the White House? Who would have
10 called it for a scandal matter?
11 A I didn't say that. You said that.
12 Q Shall I use the word "controversy"?
13 Do you like that better?
14 A I'm just going to choose my own
15 word.
16 Q I've heard you use the word
17 "scandal" quite a bit on ABC with Sam
18 Donaldson and Cokie Roberts. Is that an
19 incorrect characterization for Filegate?
20 It's not a scandal.
21 A Actually I think that -- I'm glad
22 you asked because I think that the more the
189
1 facts have come out about the FBI files
2 matter and the inappropriate collection of
3 FBI files by people, by Craig Livingstone and
4 Tony Marceca, turns out that, in fact, it's
5 not a scandal.
6 What it is, is a terrible mistake
7 and that because of that terrible mistake
8 there was a potential that people's rights,
9 including the rights of your clients, may
10 have been violated. No one is denying that
11 for a moment.
12 What I am denying is that anyone at
13 high levels of the White House ordered that
14 to be done, that anyone at high levels of the
15 White House ever read the -- the FBI files of
16 your clients.
17 Therefore, even though there was a
18 potential violation of rights, which is truly
19 regrettable and should have never happened,
20 there was no actual violation of rights
21 because the files were not read. Now -- and
22 certainly they were not read by me. No, I do
190
1 not consider this to be a scandal.
2 Q Do you know whether the White House
3 ever did an internal investigation of the
4 files matter?
5 A I don't know actually.
6 Q You don't know?
7 A No.
8 Q You never came into the knowledge
9 that one was done?
10 A I certainly never conducted one. I
11 don't remember that.
12 Q You don't have any personal
13 knowledge that these files were turned over
14 by the FBI as part of innocent mistake? You
15 don't have personal knowledge?
16 A Well, depends on what you consider
17 personal knowledge. I mean I've read it in
18 the newspaper, I've reviewed congressional
19 testimony, I've reviewed reports of testimony
20 from the Grand Jury. Everything I have read
21 since June 1996, tells me that this was a
22 mistake, not a scandal.
191
1 Q Did you ever do an investigation
2 while you were at the White House to see
3 whether it was a mistake?
4 A I think I already answered that
5 question.
6 Q You personally, George
7 Stephanopoulos?
8 A I answered that many times, but to
9 answer it again, no.
10 Q Now, at this briefing session did
11 the President ask you or anyone else who was
12 present any questions about the FBI files
13 matters?
14 A I don't remember a specific
15 briefing session, but he responded to it in
16 the press, so I know it came up.
17 Q Well, clearly you must have had a
18 scold session with the President to try to
19 figure out what had gone on and how you
20 respond to it, correct?
21 A No, that's not clear at all
22 actually.
192
1 MS. SHAPIRO: It's been asked and
2 answered.
3 THE WITNESS: What's clear is that
4 he was preparing to go before the press and
5 that there was probably a briefing before he
6 went out to go before the press.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You participated in the briefing?
9 A My guess is I probably did.
10 Q Who spoke at the briefing?
11 A Got me.
12 Q No one spoke?
13 A I didn't say that. I said I don't
14 know.
15 Q Did you speak?
16 A Probably.
17 Q What did you say?
18 A I don't remember.
19 Q Do you remember generally?
20 A I generally would have said what I
21 knew at the time or what I thought the
22 questions from the press would be.
193
1 Q You took notes at that meeting,
2 didn't you?
3 A No. I wouldn't take notes at a
4 meeting to brief the President for the press.
5 It was a commonplace incident.
6 Q Commonplace incident?
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q The FBI files was a commonplace
9 incident?
10 A No, preparing the President for a
11 press conference is very commonplace. It
12 might happen more than once a day. It's not
13 something you would take notes on.
14 Q But the FBI files matter was not a
15 commonplace incident in itself would be your
16 opinion?
17 A Well, it depends on what you
18 consider the FBI files matter to be, the
19 collection of the FBI files mistakenly by
20 employees of the White House was a mistake,
21 regrettable mistake.
22 Q We heard that many times, but,
194
1 unfortunately, you've never conducted an
2 investigation so you don't know, so I really
3 don't care about that response. I've had it.
4 Asked and answered. You gave your response.
5 Now let's move on.
6 A Terrific. Let's go.
7 Q In terms of what else was said at
8 that meeting, who else spoke?
9 A I don't remember.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to your
11 mischaracterizing his testimony. He doesn't
12 remember any specific meeting. That was his
13 testimony.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Subsequent time you left the White
16 House have you had any kind of operations or
17 anything, medical operations?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
19 Relevancy.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I want to know --
21 it's not irrelevant. I want to find out why
22 he has a loss of memory.
195
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Have you had any operations, any
3 kind of operations, neurological?
4 A I have not and I would -- I would
5 object to your -- your conclusion that I've
6 had a loss of memory.
7 To not be able to remember one of
8 approximately -- between 1500 and 10,000
9 press briefings I had with the President over
10 the course of six years, to not remember on
11 March 9th, 1998, a specific conversation
12 sometime in June 1996, a date which you
13 couldn't even get correct within three years
14 and this is all you do all day, is not an
15 incomprehensible loss of memory. It's
16 perfectly natural.
17 Q You know what I do all day,
18 Mr. Stephanopoulos?
19 A If it's anything like this, I feel
20 sorry for you.
21 Q Have you been on any medication
22 since you've left the White House?
196
1 A I'm not going to answer that
2 question.
3 Q Are you on any medication that
4 could affect your memory?
5 A No.
6 Q Have you had any traumatic
7 experiences since you've left the White
8 House, physical shock or anything like that
9 that could affect your memory, been in a car
10 accident or anything like that? Yes or no?
11 A I'm -- I'm thinking.
12 MS. SHAPIRO: While he's thinking I
13 will insert an objection.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: He can respond.
15 MS. SHAPIRO: This is nothing more
16 than intimidation tactics and harassing the
17 witness.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: This is not
19 intimidation. It happens. Look at
20 Princess --
21 MS. SHAPIRO: You're talking over
22 me again. Please let me finish my very brief
197
1 objections.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: You dribble on. I
3 don't know what you're saying.
4 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm making
5 one-sentence, brief objections.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the objection?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: My objection is that
8 this is irrelevant, it's harassing and it's
9 designed to intimidate the witness.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not irrelevant.
11 Look at Princess Diane's bodyguard. He lost
12 his memory in a car crash.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Anything like that?
15 A Wow! I mean I knew it could
16 happen. There is a way to get the Princess
17 Diane story into anything, even the FBI files
18 matter.
19 To answer your question --
20 Q Have you been in any car crashes,
21 any physical trauma?
22 A I have had no car crashes or
198
1 physical trauma. I would like to say on the
2 record that the fact -- the questions you
3 have asked me over the course of this
4 deposition -- whether I have ever had a
5 traffic accident, whether I have ever in my
6 entire life perhaps used some sort of drug,
7 whether I am on medication, whether I have
8 had an accident.
9 Your consistent badgering as to my
10 memory all prove what I believe but was
11 willing to suspend when I came in here,
12 which is that this is harassment and a
13 frivolous -- a frivolous exercise, but I will
14 continue to try to answer the questions to
15 the best of my ability, as I have.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q The question was, have you had any
19 kind of physical trauma since you left the
20 White House, car accident, anything of that
21 nature, fall downstairs?
22 A Could you read my last answer,
199
1 please? I'm sorry.
2 Q Yes or no?
3 A I already answered.
4 Q I didn't hear it.
5 A Well, then that's because you
6 weren't listening, because you were talking.
7 Q Do you want to answer it and make
8 it easy?
9 A No, I'd like the court reporter to
10 read my answer where I already answered it.
11 Q That wasn't an answer.
12 A You didn't listen. I mean at least
13 be professional.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Do you want to get all your insults
17 out at the beginning of the afternoon
18 session, feel free.
19 A No, I --
20 Q We can move this thing along.
21 A If you would have listened, you
22 would have answer heard my answer.
200
1 Q Play back his answer.
2 (The reporter read the record
3 as requested.)
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Have you had any kind of emotional
6 trauma that could affect your memory,
7 personal loss, anything to that effect, since
8 you've left the White House?
9 A The answer to that question is no
10 again and I would submit one more time that
11 this has nothing to do with the FBI files
12 matter, which happened in June 1996, which
13 was before I went to the -- before I left the
14 White House.
15 I also testified before the House
16 Government Oversight Committee and I believe
17 the Office of Independent Counsel on this
18 matter at that time and gave full and
19 complete testimony, which I assume at least
20 the house transcript was available for your
21 review.
22 But you're choosing to ignore any