251
1 says, "The associated press reported last
2 week that Secret Service entry logs showed
3 Lenzner himself visiting the White House a
4 half dozen times in recent years, including a
5 1996 meeting with ex-deputy chief of staff
6 Harold Ickes to discuss potential
7 investigative work."
8 You are aware that Mr. Lenzner
9 visited Ickes to discuss investigative work?
10 A No.
11 Q You never heard that before?
12 A No.
13 Q Have you ever seen him in the White
14 House other than times that he came in to see
15 his daughter?
16 A No.
17 Q In the last three months what's
18 been the frequency of your conversations with
19 James Carville?
20 A Same as always.
21 Q What's that?
22 A Several times a day, as I answered
252
1 several hours ago.
2 Q Why is it that you speak with
3 Mr. Carville several times a day?
4 A Asked and answered.
5 Q Are you calling him to get
6 information for use in your commentary on ABC
7 and other things that you're doing?
8 A I talk to him all the time about a
9 lot of things.
10 Q What are you doing for Newsweek
11 Magazine?
12 A Writing occasional articles.
13 Q Do you have a contract with
14 Newsweek?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Negotiated by Mr. Barnett?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q Just, roughly speaking, are you on
19 some kind of retainer agreement with
20 Newsweek?
21 A It's none of your business.
22 Q If you're asserting a reporter's
253
1 privilege, it's my business?
2 A I have a contract to write articles
3 with them.
4 Q Are you consulting with
5 Mr. Carville to gather information for the
6 Newsweek articles?
7 A No.
8 Q Are you consulting with
9 Mr. Carville to gather information for your
10 ABC commentary?
11 A No. I talk to him because we're
12 friends.
13 Q Now, you've heard Mr. Carville make
14 a statement that Clinton allies were going to
15 declare war on Ken Starr, did you not?
16 A I have seen the report of that. I
17 have never actually heard him say it.
18 Q Did he tell you that he was going
19 to declare war or anybody was going to
20 declare war?
21 A No, which I answered a question
22 ago.
254
1 Q Have you asked Mr. Carville what he
2 meant by declaring war?
3 A No.
4 Q Have you asked anyone what was
5 meant by that?
6 A No.
7 Q Have you ever discussed with Paul
8 Begala a speech that he gave in Miami at the
9 Democrat Business Council?
10 A No.
11 Q Are you aware that he gave a speech
12 there?
13 A I have seen reports of it, sure.
14 Q Are you aware that he made
15 reference to looking at FBI files?
16 A I am aware that he made a joke and
17 the fact that a joke could occasion a
18 subpoena from you shows once again that
19 you're looking to harass people at the White
20 House or harass friends at the White House
21 and that you're engaging in frivolous
22 activity, not a legitimate investigation. I
255
1 mean dozens of other people have made FBI
2 file jokes in the last five, ten years,
3 including republicans.
4 Q Have you made FBI file jokes?
5 A You know, it's possible that I
6 have, yes.
7 Q Do you find it funny?
8 A If the joke is good, sure.
9 Q Are you aware that Mr. Begala
10 challenged our subpoena before the court,
11 tried to quash our subpoena?
12 A I'm not, but I would support him in
13 that.
14 Q Are you aware that the court
15 sustained our right to take Mr. Begala's
16 deposition?
17 A I guess they must have because Paul
18 was here.
19 Q Are you saying that the court acted
20 in a frivolous fashion by allowing the
21 deposition?
22 A No, I'm saying you acted -- I'm
256
1 saying you have acted in a frivolous fashion.
2 I can't speak to the court and I won't speak
3 to the court. I think your questions today
4 demonstrate you're acting.
5 Q You're saying the court should
6 never have ordered Mr. Begala's deposition?
7 Is that what you're saying?
8 A That's not what I said. That is
9 precisely the opposite.
10 Q Well, if the court ordered Begala's
11 deposition and he had an opportunity to
12 challenge it, then how is it frivolous for me
13 to take it?
14 A That's my conclusion, but you don't
15 care how I reach my conclusions though.
16 Q Effectively, you're telling the
17 judge that he acted in a frivolous fashion?
18 A No.
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. You're
20 just arguing with the witness now. This is
21 pointless.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
257
1 Q Is that what you're telling the
2 judge?
3 A No. I'm saying that you are
4 frivolous and you are harassing witnesses.
5 As far as I know, the judge is an honorable
6 person.
7 Q Are you aware that you had an
8 opportunity to challenge your subpoena?
9 A I'm doing my duty pursuant to the
10 court. That doesn't change my judgment of
11 you.
12 Q Well, you never challenged your
13 subpoena, did you, in front of the court?
14 A I guess not, no.
15 Q Now, did you ever discuss the FBI
16 files matter with Mr. Carville?
17 A I may have, but I don't remember
18 it.
19 Q You don't remember anything?
20 A (Nodding)
21 Q No?
22 A I don't think I -- I mean it's very
258
1 possible that the matter was a matter of same
2 public controversy, we discussed it -- and we
3 discussed the newspapers every day as part of
4 our normal chat. But I don't have a specific
5 recollection of discussing this matter.
6 Q Have you discussed the fact that
7 Mr. Carville has been subpoenaed to testify
8 in this Judicial Watch case?
9 A Answered already.
10 Q I didn't ask you what specifically
11 you discussed.
12 A No, I answered that specific
13 question about six hours ago.
14 Q You're not going to give me any
15 more?
16 A I already answered.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Certify
18 it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q What is your understanding that
21 this civil case that you're here on today is
22 all about, the legal basis for it?
259
1 A I haven't thought about it that
2 much. You tell me.
3 Q Do you know what the causes of
4 action that my clients have pled are?
5 A No. Tell me.
6 Q Have you looked at the complaint?
7 A No.
8 Q Has anyone told you what these
9 causes of action are?
10 A No.
11 Q Has anyone told you what the
12 alleged liability is?
13 A No.
14 Q Has anyone told you what the
15 alleged damage is?
16 A No.
17 Q Yet you formed an opinion that it's
18 completely frivolous?
19 A I formed the opinion that you are
20 frivolous and I know the fact that you're
21 calling me and asking me questions about my
22 life in high school and college rather than
260
1 simply asking me questions about the FBI
2 files is demonstration -- demonstrates that
3 you're acting in a frivolous way.
4 If you ask me questions about the
5 FBI files, I will answer them just as I have
6 for the past several hours.
7 Q It is your contention that I have
8 asked you no questions about FBI files in
9 this deposition?
10 A No. To the extent that you have
11 asked me questions about FBI files, I have
12 answered them to the best of my ability. I
13 just wish we would spend more time on the FBI
14 files and less time on frivolous matters.
15 Q Mr. Stephanopoulos, have you ever
16 read the book The Dark Side of Camelot?
17 A No.
18 Q Have you ever seen it?
19 A I've seen a picture of it.
20 Q Have you read excerpts of it?
21 A No.
22 Q Have you ever read any history
261
1 books that referred to the Kennedy
2 administration?
3 A Sure.
4 Q When did you read those books?
5 A Oh, I've read books on the Kennedy
6 administration probably ever -- well, if you
7 take away we used to have a picture book in
8 my house -- photo book put out by Life
9 Magazine about the Kennedy assassination.
10 I read that when I was quite young,
11 you know, probably 6, 7 or 8 years old. But
12 I would guess that from the age of 10 or 12 I
13 consistently read books on the Kennedys.
14 Q Are you an avid reader?
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q You enjoy reading about politics
17 and history?
18 A I enjoy reading about a lot of
19 different things, including politics and
20 history.
21 Q Politics is your profession, is it
22 not?
262
1 A It has been.
2 Q How old are you?
3 A I'm 37.
4 Q When were you born?
5 MR. BRAND: Do the math.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Date?
8 A February 10th, 1961. So I wasn't
9 involved --
10 Q Now, in the course of your reading
11 and your courses on history did you learn
12 about the role of J. Edgar Hoover during the
13 Kennedy administration?
14 A I read a lot of different things
15 about the role of J. Edgar Hoover during the
16 Kennedy administration.
17 Q What did you read about and what
18 did you learn?
19 A A lot of things.
20 Q Tell us.
21 A Now, you -- what -- when did J.
22 Edgar Hoover die? 1971? 1972? So J. Edgar
263
1 Hoover died when I was 10 or 11 years old.
2 Again, I would submit that my
3 judgment or my -- what I've read about J.
4 Edgar Hoover could have precious little to do
5 with what might have happened in the White
6 House in June of 1996 when J. Edgar Hoover
7 had been dead probably for 15 years?
8 Q My question was, what do you
9 remember about what J. Edgar Hoover's
10 activities were during the Clinton
11 administration, based upon your reading of
12 history and books?
13 A Well, you're just proving my point.
14 There is absolutely no involvement by J.
15 Edgar Hoover in anything having to do with
16 the Clinton administration because he was
17 dead long before Clinton --
18 Q I didn't ask that question.
19 A Precisely. Could you please read
20 his question?
21 Q You can waste me time and you can
22 waste yours, but I will be moving the court
264
1 accordingly?
2 MS. SHAPIRO: You did say the
3 Clinton administration.
4 THE WITNESS: Could you please read
5 his question?
6 THE REPORTER: Do you want me to
7 read the question?
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q No, I will ask the question again
10 because this is completely nonresponsive and
11 makes no difference. I will repeat it again.
12 A I answered your question.
13 Wait a second. You now said that
14 my answer is nonresponsive. I would please
15 ask the court reporter to read his question
16 and read my answer.
17 Q I'm going to rephrase it because I
18 want to move along.
19 A Well, before -- and I want to
20 establish for the court that my answer was
21 actually perfectly responsive to the
22 question.
265
1 Q I did not certify the question and
2 it's not your prerogative to stop my
3 deposition.
4 Mr. Stephanopoulos, what is it that
5 you learned about in the course of your
6 reading that J. Edgar Hoover did during the
7 Kennedy administration?
8 A Note for the record that for the
9 second time you asked what happened in the
10 Clinton administration, which J. Edgar Hoover
11 did nothing and then --
12 Q I just said the Kennedy.
13 A Then he did amend that and say the
14 Kennedy administration.
15 Q Kennedy administration.
16 A Right. During the course -- J.
17 Edgar Hoover was the FBI director during the
18 entire John F. Kennedy presidency. He was
19 also the FBI director when Lyndon B. Johnson
20 was President and I believe for most of
21 Richard Nixon, if not all of Richard Nixon's
22 presidency as well.
266
1 He was obviously the FBI director
2 before those presidents as well. I think he
3 went back as far as the last time was
4 Roosevelt, but I couldn't swear to that.
5 I know he was the FBI director for
6 about 50 years, the longest serving FBI
7 director in history. I also believe that he
8 abused his power at times.
9 Q How so? What did you learn about
10 that led you to form that opinion?
11 A I think he -- he interpreted his
12 mandate quite broadly and I believe too
13 broadly and I think he at times collected
14 files on private citizens like Martin Luther
15 King, perhaps like the Kennedys, in a way
16 that was inappropriate.
17 Q Collected FBI files?
18 A He wouldn't collect them. He would
19 make them.
20 Q What about collecting those FBI
21 files in your opinion was an abuse of power?
22 A What was abusive -- what was --
267
1 what was abusive about it was creating them
2 in order to blackmail people. I'm glad you
3 asked, because I -- I think what's
4 interesting about this, and what is relevant
5 about this is that what J. Edgar Hoover did
6 is nothing like what happened in the White
7 House to my knowledge in 1996.
8 J. Edgar Hoover created files on
9 people, blackmailed them with the
10 information, my reading of history. What
11 happened in the White House in 1996 is that
12 FBI files were mistakenly gathered by
13 low-level employees.
14 When this mistake was discovered,
15 it was immediately denounced by the President
16 and all other officials with responsibility.
17 The information in the files was never used
18 or disseminated in any way, shape or form.
19 I never directed anybody to read
20 them nor to my knowledge did any other White
21 House official, the President or First Lady,
22 and that when the mistake was discovered, it
268
1 was rectified.
2 The difference between J. Edgar
3 Hoover's activities and the activities in the
4 Clinton White House are the difference
5 between night and day.
6 Q Who, to the best of your knowledge,
7 did J. Edgar Hoover gather files on besides
8 Martin Luther King?
9 A Well, as I said, I think he had
10 some files on the Kennedys. I don't remember
11 what else. As I said, I was only four years
12 old.
13 Q To the best of your knowledge, J.
14 Edgar Hoover gathered a file on Ellen
15 Rometsch, did he not?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q Learned about that through reading
18 history and science books?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Who is Ellen Rometsch?
21 A She was an East German spy who was
22 alleged to have had an affair with John F.
269
1 Kennedy, among others.
2 Q What was the type of information
3 that you learned in your history studies that
4 was gathered on Ellen Rometsch by J. Edgar
5 Hoover?
6 A Well, he -- he determined through
7 his investigation that President Kennedy was
8 having an affair with Ellen Rometsch and it
9 seemed like he was blackmailing the President
10 with that information.
11 Q In fact, he also found out that
12 Ellen Rometsch was having affairs with half
13 of congress as well; is that correct?
14 A I think that's right.
15 Q He used those files to blackmail a
16 congressman?
17 A Basically, yeah, there was a Bobby
18 Baker investigation at the time and I think
19 that there was a conspiracy of silence, I
20 think that's correct, that both sides decided
21 to keep a lid on all of this is my reading of
22 the history.
270
1 Q Sometimes Hoover was reported to
2 even have cooperated with Kennedy to use the
3 Rometsch files against the congressman so the
4 congressman wouldn't dredge up the affair the
5 Kennedys were having?
6 A Sure, he would play both sides.
7 Q You learned all of this in your
8 history studies and reading the books in high
9 school and college, et cetera?
10 A Since then.
11 Q Since then?
12 A In fact, I mean I should say that
13 since -- let's just get to the point since
14 this is something that --
15 Q Well, I will ask you questions.
16 A Well, I was going to answer the
17 question.
18 Q Well, you will answer my questions.
19 A No, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm
20 answering your question. I'm answering your
21 last question.
22 In fact, the last time I read about
271
1 this was a few weeks ago when I was reading
2 "Pillar of Fire" by Tyler Branch, who
3 includes a page on this, and that's what's
4 refreshed my memory on this incident.
5 Q But you had read about it before,
6 correct?
7 A Probably.
8 Q It's pretty common knowledge in
9 Washington about J. Edgar Hoover's activities
10 with FBI files, it's not a unique revelation,
11 is it?
12 A I don't know if it's common
13 knowledge. I know it's written about in
14 history books.
15 Q Also his affairs with men in his
16 department, things like that, that's been
17 pretty well documented, correct?
18 A I don't know why you're asking
19 that.
20 Q Well, I'm just asking your
21 knowledge of J. Edgar Hoover?
22 A As I said, I was about 10 years old
272
1 when J. Edgar Hoover died. I read a fair
2 amount of him. Frankly, you know, I've never
3 read anything that would suggest affairs with
4 men in his department.
5 There was a discussion that he had
6 a long-term relationship with his assistant,
7 Clyde Tollson, but there's never been any
8 discussion that he had affairs beyond that
9 that I know about of. I don't know that
10 that's relevant either.
11 Q I'm just trying to find out what
12 you know about J. Edgar Hoover.
13 A Which, of course, is quite relevant
14 to what happened to the FBI files in 1996
15 after J. Edgar Hoover was long dead.
16 Q You're aware that sometimes he had
17 some of his employees go out and tend to his
18 garden and do private matters, that kind of
19 thing? You read about that, right?
20 A I probably did. Again, I would
21 submit for the record that I find it hard to
22 imagine how J. Edgar Hoover's assistant in
273
1 the 1940s, '50s and '60s, who may or may not
2 have attended his garden, has anything to do
3 with the mistaken collection of FBI files in
4 the Clinton White House in 1996 for the
5 record.
6 Q I'm trying to gather the totality
7 of your knowledge about J. Edgar Hoover. Is
8 it your opinion based on everything you've
9 read that he was an extremely ruthless
10 individual?
11 A I'm sure he was a complicated
12 individual, that he had a ruthless side among
13 many other sides. I never met the man.
14 Q Recently you gave an appearance on
15 "This Week" with Sam Donaldson and Cokie
16 Roberts where you made reference to an Ellen
17 Rometsch strategy, correct?
18 A I said what I would call an Ellen
19 Rometsch strategy.
20 Q Before giving that interview in ABC
21 had you ever referred to Ellen Rometsch in
22 any speech you had given publicly or any
274
1 television, radio appearance or writing?
2 A No. I read Pillar of Fire the
3 night before.
4 Q You never made any public reference
5 before?
6 A No.
7 Q That was the first time. Before
8 going on that show on February 8th on "This
9 Week" had you discussed Ellen Rometsch with
10 anyone else in the last two weeks before
11 that?
12 A No.
13 Q Or, say, the last three months
14 before that?
15 A No. As I said, I had just read
16 "Pillar of Fire" the night before.
17 Q Had you discussed J. Edgar Hoover
18 with anyone in the three months prior to your
19 appearance on ABC on February 8th, 1998?
20 A No.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
22 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
275
1 Exhibit 7.
2 (Stephanopoulos Deposition
3 Exhibit No. 7 was marked
4 identification.)
5 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the video
6 operator. This concludes tape two of the
7 George Stephanopoulos deposition. We will be
8 continued on tape three.
9 (Pause)
10 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the video
11 operator. We're going back on the record.
12 The time now is approximately 4:02 p.m.
13 Mr. Klayman?
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Mr. Stephanopoulos, what I've
16 handed you as Exhibit 7 is the transcript of
17 your appearance on "This Week" with Sam
18 Donaldson and Cokie Roberts on February 8th,
19 1998. I would like to give you an
20 opportunity to review it.
21 A I did.
22 Q I turn your attention to page two,
276
1 middle of the page, "Sam Donaldson: We know
2 what the White House tactics are. I mean
3 they have been almost open about it.
4 Attack the press, and perhaps with
5 good reason, attack the independent counsel,
6 perhaps for some good reason, and stonewall
7 on the central issue, which is the President
8 of the United States. If he has nothing to
9 hide, why is he hiding?
10 "George Stephanopoulos: I agree
11 with that. There's a different, long-term
12 strategy, which I think would be far more
13 explosive. White House allies are already
14 starting to whisper about what I'll call the
15 Ellen Rometsch strategy."
16 You made that statement, did you
17 not, Mr. Stephanopoulos on February 8th,
18 1998, on "This Week" with Sam Donaldson and
19 Cokie Roberts on ABC Television?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, before you made this statement
22 on ABC did you think about what you were
277
1 going to say when you were on ABC that day?
2 A Sure.
3 Q In fact, you had thought that you
4 were going to make reference to this Ellen
5 Rometsch strategy at best?
6 A I wasn't sure I would, no. I -- I
7 had been reading about it. It was something
8 I thought about.
9 Q It's not your practice to make
10 things up out of whole cloth, is it?
11 A No.
12 Q You wouldn't say something on ABC
13 unless it was true, would you?
14 A Well, it's my opinion. There's a
15 lot of -- I mean that's what analysis and
16 opinion and judgment are all about, as you've
17 tried to establish here today. I mean this
18 is my opinion. These are my words, this is
19 my characterization, this is my metaphor.
20 But I believe it to be true.
21 Q "George Stephanopoulos: I agree
22 with that," what Donaldson was saying. What
278
1 is it about what he said in the previous
2 sentence that I read to you that you agree
3 with?
4 A All of it.
5 Q That the strategy of the White
6 House was to attack the press?
7 A Part of the strategy, and I think
8 rightfully sometimes.
9 Q You learned of that strategy by
10 talking with people at the White House prior
11 to your appearance on February 8th, correct?
12 A Well, I'm not going to tell you who
13 I talked to or who I didn't talk to. What I
14 am going to tell you is that is my judgment.
15 Q Who did you talk to?
16 A I'm not going to tell you.
17 Q Why aren't you going to tell me?
18 A I have a privilege.
19 Q What's that privilege?
20 A Journalistic privilege.
21 Q Do you have any journalistic
22 credentials?
279
1 A What is a journalistic credential?
2 I don't have a journalism degree, if that's
3 what you're asking. I don't know if that's a
4 requirement to write or speak as a
5 journalist.
6 I have done reporting for the
7 Christian Science Monitor, I have written for
8 Newsweek Magazine, I have appeared as a
9 political analyst since 1997 on ABC
10 Television and when I was in graduate school,
11 I also did a documentary for CBS television.
12 Q At the time you made this
13 statement, did you hold a press pass to the
14 White House?
15 A No. I don't know what relevance
16 that is though.
17 Q Have you ever held a press pass for
18 the White House?
19 A No.
20 Q Have you ever held any kind of
21 credentials that you can show demonstrate
22 you're a member of the press?
280
1 A My contract with ABC News.
2 Q That's it?
3 A That's pretty -- that's pretty
4 good.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Brand, we're
6 going to require production of that contract
7 if you continue to hold it as privilege --
8 THE WITNESS: To hell you are.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: -- claim a privilege.
10 MR. BRAND: I don't know what the
11 contract has to do with it. If he had no
12 contract, he would be entitled to the first
13 amendment, as anybody is.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we are asking
15 you to produce it.
16 MR. BRAND: I'm not going to
17 produce it.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Do you have any badge that says
20 you're a member of the press?
21 MR. BRAND: Do you have a badge
22 that says you're a lawyer?
281
1 MR. KLAYMAN: As I matter of fact,
2 I do. You probably do, too. It's called a
3 bar card.
4 MR. BRAND: What is the
5 significance of badge to be a reporter?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Do you have any kind of badge that
8 says you're a member of the press?
9 A I have an ABC beeper. I have --
10 no, you know, I don't carry a badge. I carry
11 a driver's license and a passport. That's my
12 identification.
13 Q Is that, the latter, so you can get
14 out of the country in a moment's notice?
15 A Yes, as a matter of fact.
16 Q What caused you to make that
17 statement on "This Week, I agree with that
18 and there's a different long-term strategy
19 which I think would be far more explosive"?
20 A The words speak for themselves.
21 Q Notwithstanding the fact that you
22 have asserted a claimed privilege, that
282
1 information wasn't made out of whole cloth,
2 was it, that White House allies are already
3 starting to whisper about what I will call
4 the Ellen Rometsch strategy? You obtained
5 this information from alleged sources,
6 correct?
7 A Sure, the -- the -- tying to it
8 Ellen Rometsch -- the Ellen Rometsch metaphor
9 is mine. As I said, I read "Pillar of Fire."
10 That's why I said what I will call the Ellen
11 Rometsch strategy.
12 Q But you obtained information that
13 the use of FBI files was being whispered
14 about by White House allies.
15 A No, that is not the information I
16 obtained.
17 Q What was the nature of the
18 information you obtained?
19 A It's none of your business.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q When you referred to the Ellen
283
1 Rometsch strategy, what are you referring to
2 in this statement?
3 A The words speak for themselves.
4 Q What are you referring to?
5 A Well, I'll read it. "She was a
6 girlfriend of John F. Kennedy, who also
7 happened to be an East German spy.
8 Robert Kennedy was charged with
9 getting her out of the country and also
10 getting John Edgar Hoover to go to the
11 congress and say don't you investigate this
12 because if you do, we're going to open up
13 everybody's closets." That's the description
14 of the John F. Kennedy, J. Edgar Hoover --
15 Q Finish the phrase.
16 A "I think that in the long run they
17 have a deterrent strategy," then I was
18 interrupted.
19 Q "On getting a lot of?"
20 A "Getting a lot of." Had I not been
21 interrupted, I suppose I would have said
22 something, a lot of information on their
284
1 adversaries, but that has nothing to do with
2 FBI files. I never mentioned FBI files.
3 Q In fact, as you previously
4 discussed, when Robert Kennedy was in charge
5 of getting her out of the country and getting
6 J. Edgar Hoover to go to congress, he went to
7 congress, as you testified about earlier,
8 with the knowledge that there were FBI files
9 on some congressmen, correct?
10 A Right, that's what happened to John
11 F. Kennedy and J. Edgar Hoover. I was making
12 a broader metaphor about background
13 information. I was not referring to FBI
14 files.
15 Q How can we verify that you weren't
16 referring to FBI files just background
17 information?
18 A I just told you.
19 Q Now, is it not true that J. Edgar
20 Hoover used FBI files against the
21 congressman?
22 A It may have been true. I wasn't
285
1 there.
2 Q In fact, J. Edgar Hoover had FBI
3 files on some of the affairs the congressman
4 had with the woman, correct, based on your
5 knowledge of the history?
6 A I don't know. I wasn't there.
7 Q But you've read that, correct?
8 A I read about the FBI files. I
9 don't know whether the FBI file is used in
10 this context, but I read that.
11 Q You read it before you made this
12 statement?
13 A Yes.
14 Q In this statement you did not
15 differentiate between getting information
16 from FBI files or some other source, correct?
17 A Well, as you see, I was interrupted
18 and I was trying to go on, but I was
19 interrupted.
20 Q In fact, you said before you were
21 interrupted, on page 3 of 12, "I think that
22 in the long run they have a deterrent
286
1 strategy on getting a lot of." You meant FBI
2 files, correct?
3 A No, I already answered that.
4 That's not what I meant.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
6 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
7 Exhibit 8.
8 (Stephanopoulos Deposition
9 Exhibit No. 8 was marked
10 identification.)
11 MS. SHAPIRO: Are you marking this
12 or referring to the past exhibit?
13 MR. KLAYMAN: It's been marked as
14 Exhibit 8.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Referring to Exhibit 8, this is a
17 passage from "The Dark Side of Camelot" by
18 Seymour M. Hersh, page 405. Take an
19 opportunity to review this,
20 Mr. Stephanopoulos, 405 and 406 up to the end
21 of the second paragraph, middle of the page.
22 A Yeah.
287
1 Q Have you read it?
2 A Uh-huh.
3 Q Now, this passage is consistent
4 with what you read the night before with
5 regard to this other book, correct?
6 A It's far more detailed.
7 Q How is it more detailed?
8 A It's two pages, not one paragraph.
9 Q But both of them refer to the use
10 of FBI files against political adversaries of
11 J. Edgar Hoover, correct?
12 A Well, or, more generally, they
13 refer to the background of these people.
14 That's what I was referring to.
15 Q But both of the passages that you
16 read. What was the name of the other book
17 again?
18 A Pillar of Fire.
19 Q Pillar of Fire. That refers to the
20 FBI files as well?
21 A I don't know if it used the word
22 "FBI files," but it refers to it by name.
288
1 Q The answer is yes?
2 A That's not what I said.
3 Q Pillar of Fire referred to FBI
4 files?
5 A I didn't say that. I said I don't
6 remember whether it referred to FBI files. I
7 said it referred to the general matter, you
8 said that, and I don't know why you keep
9 insisting on putting words in my mouth.
10 Q Does this refresh your recollection
11 as to what you meant by Ellen Rometsch
12 strategy when you made that on ABC's "This
13 Week" on February 8th?
14 MR. BRAND: First of all, you keep
15 characterizing his recollection as needed to
16 be refreshed. He's testified fully about
17 what he meant by Ellen Rometsch and where he
18 got the information, so you could you stop
19 characterizing his memory as needing
20 refreshing.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to
22 refresh his recollection.
289
1 MR. BRAND: You've got to show he
2 doesn't have a present memory before you do
3 that, Larry, and like Doug Harvard, the
4 umpire, says, you can go look that up if you
5 want to. That's the way it's done.
6 Please, stop characterizing his
7 memory as failing when, in fact, he's
8 testified fully and exhausted his memory. If
9 you want to ask him about this, pending
10 whatever relevance it has, then ask him about
11 it.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you for your
13 speech, Mr. Brand. Now, let's get back to
14 the questioning.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Let's take it line by line. That's
17 funny?
18 A It is. It really is.
19 Q Good. I'm glad that you find it
20 funny.
21 "George Stephanopoulos: I agree
22 with that and there's a different, long-term
290
1 strategy."
2 Where did you learn there was a
3 different, long term strategy?
4 A In the course of my work.
5 Q What work?
6 A My work for ABC.
7 Q What type of work did you do that
8 caused you to come into that information?
9 A It's none of your business.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Did you talk with people inside the
13 White House to get that information?
14 A I'm not going to answer that
15 question.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Did you talk to people outside of
19 the White House?
20 A I'm not going to answer that
21 question.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
291
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q You then state, "which I think
3 would be far more explosive." Where did you
4 obtain the information that this long-term
5 strategy would be far more explosive?
6 A That's my judgment, that the
7 strategy, if embarked on, would be more
8 explosive. That's my conclusion based on my
9 years of experience.
10 Q What did you mean by explosive?
11 A It would be a matter of some
12 controversy.
13 Q What is a matter of some
14 controversy?
15 A You're the one who used the word
16 "controversy." I don't have to define it for
17 you.
18 Q Well, you just used it yourself, so
19 what do you mean by it?
20 A It means exactly what it says.
21 Q Would it raise legal ramifications?
22 A Not necessarily.
292
1 Q Were you thinking of that when you
2 made that statement?
3 A Actually no. I was referring to
4 political implications.
5 Q What political implications
6 specifically were you thinking about when you
7 made that statement?
8 A That it would be a matter of
9 political controversy.
10 Q I'm not asking you for a source
11 here. I'm asking you how would it raise
12 political implications.
13 A I know it. I'm just -- and I'm
14 answering your question. If you don't
15 understanding English, go back to school.
16 That's my answer.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q How would it raise political
20 implications?
21 A I think if there were a -- well, in
22 fact, it already has, hasn't it? There's
293
1 been discussion about whether people, you
2 know, for instance Bill Bennett, Bob
3 Bennett's brother, has said that all
4 republican candidates for President in the
5 year 2,000 are now going to have to undergo
6 an adultery check.
7 They're going to have to be squeaky
8 clean. That's precisely the kind of thing I
9 was referring to when I talked about this,
10 that this would become a matter of political
11 of controversy if every -- if this were
12 pursued.
13 And everybody agreed to believe it
14 was fair game to look into the backgrounds of
15 political adversaries or anybody in politics.
16 I think -- in fact, my -- my analysis has
17 been borne out in part by events.
18 Q You were also referring to the
19 method of looking into that background in
20 terms of the explosiveness?
21 A No, actually I wasn't.
22 Q You stated that, "White House
294
1 allies are already starting to whisper about
2 what I'll call the Ellen Rometsch strategy."
3 How did you define White House allies?
4 A Speaks for itself.
5 Q I'm not asking you right now to
6 name the sources of that information, but how
7 did you define the term "White House allies."
8 A People sympathetic to the White
9 House.
10 Q Was there a smaller subset of
11 people than you were referring to when you
12 made this statement?
13 A No.
14 Q How do you define people
15 sympathetic to the White House?
16 A Boy. I mean people who agree with
17 the President's policies, people who like the
18 President, people who are democrats, people
19 when don't like the kind of harassment that
20 this lawsuit -- or that at least the way
21 you're conducting this lawsuit demonstrates.
22 People who are fed up with the
295
1 tactics of Ken Starr; people who believe that
2 this case should have never gone to trial;
3 people who like the Family and Medical Leave
4 Act; people who want a minimum wage increase;
5 people who think that doing away with the IRS
6 would -- would harm the country; people who
7 think that a national health care plan is a
8 good idea; people who want to invest more in
9 education; people who believe that we should
10 do more to protect the environment; people
11 who want more police on the street; people
12 who think it's a good thing that the deficit
13 has been eliminated under President Clinton's
14 watch and 15 million jobs have been created;
15 people who are happy with low interest rates;
16 people who are happy with low unemployment;
17 people who have been able to get a
18 scholarship to go to college under the
19 America National Service program; people who
20 are happy that the killing has stopped in
21 Bosnia; people who are hoping for Middle East
22 peace; people who are glad that we were able
296
1 to threaten Sadam Hussain's military force so
2 that we could get the inspectors back in.
3 All those people could conceivably
4 be considered sympathetic to the President,
5 allies to the President.
6 Q People who would believe that it's
7 okay for the Chief Executive Officer to
8 commit adultery?
9 A I don't think I said that. Would
10 you please read my answer --
11 Q Would they be in that subset?
12 A Would you please read my answer
13 back?
14 Q No, but would they be included as a
15 White House ally?
16 A I gave my answer.
17 MR. BRAND: You're just arguing
18 with the witness.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q People who believe that it's okay
21 to permit perjury in a civil deposition?
22 A You asked me to --
297
1 Q Are they included in there?
2 A You asked me to define what I meant
3 by White House allies. If you would like to
4 hear the answer read back again, I'm happy to
5 hear it.
6 Q Are those people in your
7 definition, people who say it's okay to
8 commit perjury in a civil deposition?
9 A I answered the question.
10 Q Yes or no?
11 A I answered your question. The
12 answer to that subsequent question was no,
13 that it wasn't included in my original
14 answer.
15 Q People who believe that it's all
16 right to commit adultery in the White House
17 while you're a Chief Executive Officer, are
18 they included in that subset?
19 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection to the
20 relevancy.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You can respond.
298
1 A I gave my answer.
2 Q Yes or no?
3 A I gave my answer.
4 Q You have to answer.
5 A I gave my answer.
6 Q Are you refusing to answer?
7 A No, I'm referring back to my old
8 answer.
9 Q Are those people in that group of
10 people that we just discussed?
11 A If they were in that group of
12 people, I would have said that in the group
13 of people. I gave my answer. You can define
14 it -- as any way you want. I gave the answer
15 to your question.
16 Q Is James Carville in this category
17 of White House allies?
18 A What category?
19 Q That you just defined.
20 A He's in the category I defined
21 there. I'm not going to answer the question
22 as regards to what I said on ABC Television.
299
1 Q Is he in the category of what you
2 said on ABC Television?
3 A I'm not going to answer that.
4 Q On what ground?
5 A I'm not going to tell you who I
6 talked to.
7 Q I didn't ask you whether you got
8 the information from Carville, I just want to
9 know whether he's within the definition of
10 White House allies in ABC Television.
11 A He's within the definition of White
12 House allies I gave in this deposition. I am
13 not going to answer the question as to what I
14 said on ABC Television.
15 Q On what basis?
16 A On the basis that I'm not going to
17 divulge who I did or did not talk to.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Brand, are you
19 instructing him not to answer --
20 MR. BRAND: Yes.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: -- with regard to
22 that classification?
300
1 MR. BRAND: On the same grounds
2 that we discussed before.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking
4 whether Mr. Carville gave the information
5 which Mr. Stephanopoulos then used to make
6 his statement on ABC about the Ellen Rometsch
7 strategy.
8 I'm asking whether when he referred
9 to White House allies on ABC whether
10 Mr. Carville would be included in that
11 definition as he used it on ABC.
12 THE WITNESS: I'm not answering
13 that question.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing
15 him not to answer that?
16 MR. BRAND: To the extent it's
17 within the asserted privilege, yes.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's not an
19 answer. Are you saying he can respond or
20 not?
21 MR. BRAND: He's fully responded to
22 these ridiculous questions, Larry.