UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ---------------------------x CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER : et al., : : Plaintiffs, : : v. : No. 96-2163 (RCL) : FEDERAL BUREAU OF : INVESTIGATION et al., : : Defendants. : Volume 4 ---------------------------x Washington, D.C. Friday, January 22, 1999 Continued deposition of LINDA R. TRIPP a witness, recalled for examination by counsel for Defendants, pursuant to notice and agreement of counsel, continuing at approximately 10:17 a.m., at the offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street Southwest, Washington, D.C., before Monica A. Voorhees, notary public in and for the District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of the respective parties: 788 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE 4 Judicial Watch 501 School Street Southwest, Suite 725 5 Washington, D.C. 20024 (202) 646-5172 6 7 On behalf of Defendants Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Executive 8 Office of the President (EOP): 9 ELIZABETH J. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE JAMES J. GILLIGAN, ESQUIRE 10 PATRICIA COPPOLINO, ESQUIRE Federal Programs Branch 11 Civil Division United States Department of Justice 12 901 E Street Northwest, Room 988 Washington, D.C. 20530 13 (202) 514-5302 14 On behalf of Defendant Federal Bureau of 15 Investigation: 16 JON D. PIFER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 17 Federal Bureau of Investigation 935 Pennsylvania Avenue Northwest 18 Washington, D.C. 20535 (202) 324-9665 19 20 21 22 789 1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D): 2 On behalf of Defendant Hillary Rodham Clinton: 3 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE Williams & Connolly 4 725 Twelfth Street Northwest Washington, D.C. 20005 5 (202) 434-5000 6 On behalf of Defendant Nussbaum: 7 ROBERT B. MAZUR, ESQUIRE 8 Wachtell Lipton Rosen & Katz 51 West 52nd Street 9 New York, New York 10019-6618 (212) 403-1000 10 11 On behalf of Office of Independent Counsel: 12 JOSEPH M. DITKOFF, ESQUIRE 13 RICHARD C. KILLOUGH, ESQUIRE Office of Independent Counsel 14 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest Washington, D.C. 20004 15 (202) 514-8688 16 On behalf of Witness: 17 ANTHONY ZACCAGNINI, ESQUIRE 18 ANTHONY LARDIERI, ESQUIRE Semmes Bowen & Semmes 19 250 West Pratt Street Baltimore, Maryland 21201 20 (410) 385-3935 21 ALSO PRESENT: 22 Sylvanus Holley 790 1 C O N T E N T S 2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE 3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 791 4 TRIPP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: 5 No. 18 - First Amended Privilege Log 861 6 7 No. 19 - Book Proposal, Redacted Notes 862 8 * * * * * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 791 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 Whereupon, 3 LINDA R. TRIPP 4 was recalled as a witness and, having been 5 previously duly sworn, was examined and 6 testified further as follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS 8 CONTINUED 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q Good morning, Ms. Tripp, how are 11 you? 12 A Good morning. Well, thank you. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Is there anyone in 14 this room who has not been attending the 15 first three sessions of this deposition? 16 MS. COPPOLINO: Yes. I'm Patricia 17 Coppolino. I'm with the Department of 18 Justice. I'm here this morning representing 19 the Defense Department. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: What section of the 21 Justice Department are you with? 22 MS. COPPOLINO: I'm with the 792 1 Federal Programs Branch. 2 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Weismann, who was 3 here during the earlier sessions, is not here 4 today? 5 MS. COPPOLINO: That's correct. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: You're here on her 7 behalf? 8 MS. COPPOLINO: Yes. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Everyone else is the 10 same? 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Ms. Peterson is not 12 here this morning. 13 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Peterson from the 14 White House Counsel's Office. 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q Ms. Tripp, it's been said that you 18 were in many places and saw many things in 19 this administration; people, in fact, have 20 mocked you for that. 21 How do you explain the fact that 22 you've observed the things that you've 793 1 testified to in this lawsuit? 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: I can only say that I 4 worked at the White House. I worked in areas 5 where things continually happened. I didn't, 6 certainly didn't create any of the so-called 7 scandals. I was, however, there to witness 8 them. 9 I think it's important to note that 10 this Administration at the White House and 11 beyond continued to promote me and to place 12 me in increasingly sensitive positions where 13 I would be exposed to various occurrences 14 within the West Wing of the White House. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Was there something about your 17 position as executive assistant that gave you 18 access to the things that you had observed? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q You can respond. 22 A I don't know that it was written in 794 1 a job description, per se, but clearly my 2 proximity, if nothing else, allowed me to be 3 witness to various incidents that occurred. 4 I think that there was an element of trust 5 that clearly went along with the title. 6 Q What were the duties and 7 responsibilities as executive assistant to 8 Bernard Nussbaum? 9 A Well, I think they strayed somewhat 10 from what was portrayed to me when the 11 position was first offered, because 12 ultimately it was a multi-task sort of 13 jack-of-all-trades position, frankly. 14 It was not necessarily what had 15 been, as I said, portrayed when I was first 16 offered the position. 17 But it involved, I think, a 18 portion, confidential assistant to 19 Mr. Nussbaum, originator of non-legal 20 correspondence, staff liaison with the senior 21 staff, press liaison when required for the 22 Counsel's Office, spokesperson, on occasion, 795 1 for Mr. Nussbaum. 2 I did not keep his diary. I did 3 not keep his calendar. To the extent that 4 all of us contributed to phone answering, I 5 certainly did that. I supervised the West 6 Wing staff. 7 Q What comprised the West Wing staff? 8 A That was Bernie's secretary, Betsy 9 Pond, as we have spoken of before. Debra 10 Gorham, Vince Foster's secretary, as well. 11 Q Who was that, again? 12 A Debra Gorham. At various times 13 other staff assistants and volunteers. I can 14 name them, if you'd like. Some of the names 15 escape me at this point. 16 Q As part of your duties and 17 responsibilities, you were in constant 18 proximity to the lawyers and support staff 19 that worked in the White House Counsel's 20 Office? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, leading. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I was in daily 796 1 contact certainly, yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Were there any offices in the White 4 House Counsel's Office that you were 5 prohibited from entering? 6 A Prohibited? 7 Q Yes. 8 A No. 9 Q Were there offices that were 10 routinely locked during the day? 11 A Not until Mr. Foster's body was 12 discovered, no. Prior to that, I was not 13 aware of any offices being locked during the 14 day. 15 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 16 foundation. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Were there areas in the White House 19 Counsel's Office that were off limits to 20 White House personnel? 21 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 22 the question. 797 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I 2 understand the question. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q When you worked there? Where 5 various people could not go? 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 7 vagueness, lack of foundation. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A I'm afraid I don't understand. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Well, were there places that any of 14 the office staff were told, look, don't sit 15 at somebody's desk, or anything like that? 16 A I don't know what you mean, 17 exactly. I mean we certainly would not 18 have -- White House staff, Counsel's Office 19 staff, sitting at other counsel member's 20 staff? 21 Q For instance, were you allowed to 22 go to another secretary's desk and use his or 798 1 her computer, if necessary? 2 A Oh, certainly. I don't recall any 3 restriction in that regard. 4 Q Did there come a point in time when 5 you worked in the White House Counsel's 6 Office where you felt under scrutiny or 7 threatened in any way? 8 A Definitely. 9 Q When did that happen? 10 A I'm not certain of the timing. I 11 had written an op ed piece actually in 12 support of the senior staff and the President 13 and the First Lady at the White House during 14 the, what I considered to be the escalation 15 of the Whitewater press frenzy, December '93 16 time frame, I believe, a rather impassioned 17 plea for understanding and a better, a fairer 18 addressing of these issues where these people 19 were concerned based on what I perceived my 20 observations to be. 21 I had felt strongly about this, but 22 over time, I began to see things in a 799 1 different light. It was precisely during 2 this time that I began to see things in a 3 different light that I also started feeling 4 somewhat endangered, somehow that this wasn't 5 smart to question, to raise issues, that 6 perhaps these ways I had of asking questions, 7 perhaps this was being observed and not 8 appreciated, watched. 9 Q Was there a turning point when you 10 felt as if you were not appreciated and 11 watched, some event in particular? 12 A When, there came a time when, and 13 I'm sorry, I'm not certain when this was, 14 when we were approached by I believe the FBI, 15 perhaps at that time with the OIC, where they 16 came to ask questions, where they asked for a 17 tour of Vince Foster's office and sort of an 18 explanation as to what had happened that day. 19 It was at that time that I 20 discussed with Bernie Nussbaum the need to 21 have an attorney. At that time there were, I 22 don't know that there was anybody left in the 800 1 Counsel's Office who had been there during 2 Mr. Foster's tenure, other than myself. 3 So after that time I felt more and 4 more fearful. Joel Klein had given me reason 5 to believe that I needed to be careful in 6 what I said. 7 This would have had to have been 8 between, right around the same time that 9 Bernie was being fired, or had resigned, 10 ostensibly. 11 Q Was there something that Mr. Klein 12 said in particular that caused you concern? 13 A He said so many different things. 14 This was a time when Joel became very much a 15 player in my life. 16 He -- do I remember verbatim, no. 17 I remember questions about my attorney. He 18 wanted to ensure that it was an attorney, 19 frankly, that he approved of. I was 20 uncomfortable with that, but I really didn't 21 feel I had a choice in choosing another 22 attorney at that time. 801 1 Q Give us the gist of what you 2 discussed with him, not verbatim, but just 3 the gist, other than the fact that he wanted 4 to approve your attorney? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 A Well, he didn't say he wanted to 9 approve my attorney, it was just ensuring, I 10 think, that it was an Administration friendly 11 attorney. 12 Gee, what did he say. He said 13 things like, well, I would question things 14 and so he would say, well, I don't think you 15 need to address this, this hasn't even been 16 asked, or you don't really know that for a 17 fact, do you. Are you offering -- he asked 18 me if I was offering information to the 19 agents who would come by or whether I was 20 just merely answering questions. 21 It just became, in my opinion, a 22 hostile environment. 802 1 Q Anyone in addition to Mr. Klein 2 that you felt was watching you or was hostile 3 or adverse in any way? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: I noticed a change in 6 demeanor with my relationship as it pertained 7 to, a relationship that I felt I had 8 cultivated over time with Bruce Lindsay. I 9 felt less than welcome in the presence of the 10 First Lady, and that had changed over time. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q How long -- 13 A Just a sense of, a turn-about in 14 the way I was treated by those people with 15 whom I had worked for some time and had 16 developed, I thought, at least a congenial, 17 respectful working relationship. 18 Q What did you notice with regard to 19 Bruce Lindsay in terms of the change? 20 A Well following my conversation with 21 Bruce Lindsay in which I expressed concerns 22 about Joel Klein -- 803 1 Q What specifically did you tell 2 Mr. Lindsay about Mr. Klein? 3 A I told him that I felt that he was 4 sabotaging Bernie Nussbaum, that I felt at 5 every opportunity Joel Klein was using his 6 new position and area of authority as it 7 pertained to the damage control, the 8 Whitewater damage control to undermine 9 Bernie's credibility and to, in effect, point 10 fingers at Mr. Nussbaum. I felt that was 11 wholly unfair, unjustified and disingenuous, 12 because he presented a completely different 13 face to Mr. Nussbaum, in his presence. 14 So there were elements of that 15 behavior on the part of Mr. Klein that I 16 addressed with Mr. Lindsay, on more than one 17 occasion, but I remember one occasion in 18 particular. 19 On this particular occasion I 20 raised my concerns about other things I had 21 witnessed in the White House Counsel's Office 22 over time. 804 1 Q What did you raise? 2 A My concerns about Bill Kennedy. 3 My concerns about files, my 4 concerns about a feeling I had that enemies, 5 real or perceived, were in danger of 6 information coming out in one way or another 7 by the administration. 8 In any event, it was a friendly 9 conversation, but at the end of that 10 conversation, he said talk like that will get 11 you destroyed. You will be destroyed. He 12 said it with a smile. 13 My relationship after that with 14 Bruce Lindsay ceased to exist, frankly. It 15 became not warm, not friendly, changed 16 dramatically. 17 Q When you heard Bruce Lindsay say 18 that with a smile, talk like that will get 19 you destroyed, how did you take that? 20 Destroyed in terms of your career? Did you 21 take it there may be other types of things on 22 the horizon that could get you destroyed? 805 1 What did you feel at that time? 2 A I felt threatened. 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, calls for 4 speculation, lack -- 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: After I finish my 8 objection, please, Mr. Klayman. Objection, 9 calls for speculation, lack of foundation. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You may answer it. 13 THE WITNESS: I felt threatened. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Did you have a specific type of 16 thought as to how you could be threatened? 17 A I didn't think Bruce Lindsay was 18 going to come at me with an Uzi. I felt that 19 my professional future was at stake, and that 20 I would most likely lose, in any protracted 21 battle. I would be the loser. 22 I also felt, frankly, that perhaps 806 1 an accident would befall me, and I'm not 2 overdramatizing. 3 Q What, if anything, led you to 4 believe that an accident could befall you? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You may answer. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, I go back to 8 just a sense I had over time and precisely, 9 specific to my recollection right now, is the 10 Jerry Park's incident and the reaction by the 11 senior staff members to that death. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Tell us about that. 14 A I remember Skip Rutherford from the 15 Chief of Staff's office faxing to Bernie a 16 news article that had just appeared 17 apparently in the Little Rock paper having to 18 do with Mr. Park's death and that he had been 19 a, as I recall today, I believe that it 20 referenced Mr. Park as being a security, head 21 of security for Clinton/Gore '92, and about 22 the issue surrounding his death is the best I 807 1 can recall right now. 2 Q Was there anything else that led 3 you to believe that you could have an 4 accident? 5 A It was the way it was handled. It 6 was, again, the same thing as with 7 Mr. Foster. This was, the actual event, 8 itself, would not have been necessarily 9 anything more straightforward than what it 10 appeared to be, it was the way it was 11 handled. 12 It was as though this was a 13 concern, a cover-up, a -- it was the covert 14 way they behaved that made me believe that 15 this was, once again, something to be fearful 16 of. 17 Q Was there anyone in particular that 18 behaved more in a covert way than anyone 19 else? 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form, 21 the vagueness, the relevance. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you understand 808 1 the question? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. I remember that 3 it was not -- again, not to defend 4 Mr. Nussbaum's honor, but he seemed 5 completely confused by this, didn't seem to 6 see any reason to react or to, he was kind of 7 like, oh. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Who were the ones that were looking 10 like they were covering it up, if anyone? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A Well, I remember Bill Kennedy, 15 Marcia Scott. This seemed to be of great 16 interest to Joel Klein. The very people I 17 had come to be wary of over time, anyway. 18 Q Bruce Lindsay? 19 A Oh, definitely Bruce. 20 Q Have you ever heard of Bruce 21 Lindsay being referred to as the consigliere? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 809 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Where have you heard that? 4 A Oh, just -- truly only press 5 reports. Seems to fit so well, though. 6 Q Did you tend to view Bruce Lindsay 7 in that way yourself when you worked in the 8 office? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, lack of 10 relevance, form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 14 object to relevance, as well. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. 17 A Long before the press identified 18 Mr. Lindsay as being the closest confidante 19 or the closest aide to the President, I had, 20 in my mind certainly from having worked for 21 Mr. Lindsay directly for a couple months 22 early on, had no doubt in my mind that he was 810 1 far beyond anyone else, had more access and 2 certainly was the closest aide to the 3 President, so. 4 Q Did you get the impression based on 5 your experience that it was Lindsay who 6 carried out the wishes of the President? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 8 relevance. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 10 vagueness, relevance, speculation, lack of 11 foundation. 12 THE WITNESS: All I will say in the 13 face of all that legal mumbo-jumbo is that I 14 felt that Mr. Lindsay was the head protector. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q Was it your impression that if 17 something was going to happen to you, 18 Mr. Lindsay would be part of it? 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. I 21 think that we are getting far afield, 22 Mr. Klayman. Calling for a lot of 811 1 speculation. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Lack of foundation. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. I'm asking you 5 for your reaction. 6 Here's someone who said you will be 7 destroyed. Now did you take that to mean 8 that he would play a role, himself? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objections. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Asked and 11 answered. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q You can respond. 14 A I never thought he would come after 15 me with an Uzi. I never thought he 16 personally would take part in anything that 17 might endanger my life. 18 Did I feel that he might somehow 19 have a hand in passing along my name, yes. 20 Q To those who would do those kinds 21 of things to you? 22 A Yes. 812 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Same slew of 2 objections. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q Have you ever met Harold Ickes? 6 A Oh, many times. 7 Q Did you ever come into contact with 8 him at the White House? 9 A That's the only way I came into 10 contact with him. 11 Q Right. The reputation of Mr. Ickes 12 in the White House at the time, was he 13 considered to be someone to be feared? 14 A He, once he finally did come on at 15 the White House, and his arrival had been 16 anticipated for many months, he immediately 17 became a part of the White House -- 18 Whitewater damage control group. In fact, I 19 think began to head it at that point. 20 Feared, I don't know. I don't know 21 that we feared him. I didn't fear him. 22 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form 813 1 of the last question, by the way. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q At any time that you worked in the 4 White House did you become aware of reports 5 in the media that he had represented 6 organized crime figures? 7 A Yes. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 9 relevance. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How did you become aware of that? 12 A I think for the most part I was 13 aware of it prior to news reports because 14 there had been discussion about his impending 15 arrival since the first term, since the 16 beginning of the first term. 17 We kept hearing that he was having 18 problem with mob ties and he had to clear 19 that up before he could take his appointment. 20 I don't know how true that is. I never 21 followed up on any of that. 22 Q Did that cause you concern in the 814 1 context of the statements made by Mr. Lindsay 2 that you had somebody with reported mob ties 3 in the White House working with the 4 President? 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, same 7 objections. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q You can respond. 10 A I'm trying to think back to how I 11 felt at that time. By the time I had heard 12 these revelations about Mr. Ickes and 13 possible connections, I had started, and I 14 emphasize started, to draw my own conclusions 15 about unscrupulous behavior in the White 16 House, so I wasn't actually very surprised. 17 Q In terms of the questions that you 18 were asking to Mr. Klein, you said you asked 19 him certain questions and you later went to 20 talk to Mr. Lindsay and asked him the same 21 questions, they dealt with files and such. 22 A There were many issues I addressed 815 1 with Mr. Klein. 2 Q Give us as much as you can remember 3 about in particular the files issue. 4 A That I addressed with Mr. Lindsay, 5 not with Mr. Klein. 6 Q Let's start with Mr. Klein, what 7 specifically, or generally, whatever you can 8 remember, did you discuss with him? 9 A Oh, goodness. We just -- well 10 actually, many different things, but we 11 finally discussed my removal from the 12 Counsel's Office. It was my feeling after 13 having met with Lloyd Cutler when he was 14 scheduled to replace Mr. Nussbaum that he 15 planned no staff additions or deletions to 16 the West Wing Counsel's Office staff. 17 Within a very short time after his 18 arrival in the West Wing, I felt that his 19 demeanor toward me changed. I did not feel 20 at that time nor do I feel today that I was 21 exhibiting any sort of paranoid reaction. In 22 fact, my removal shortly thereafter seems to 816 1 justify the concerns that I had at that time. 2 Q Tell us specifically, was there 3 anything else you discussed with Klein that 4 you can remember? 5 A I remember just discussing my 6 concerns about his concerns about 7 Mr. Foster's office and the way I answered 8 questions, his concerns about my concerns 9 about Deb Gorham's computer. 10 All his concerns that essentially 11 questioned my loyalty, without saying so, 12 because of issues I had raised and I felt 13 they were bona fide issues of concern. 14 Q Tell us what you can remember that 15 you discussed with Mr. Lindsay, start with 16 the FBI files issue. 17 A I had a very warm, easy 18 relationship with Bruce Lindsay, so I was far 19 more candid with Bruce than I would have 20 been, for instance, with Mr. Klein. I was as 21 candid with Bruce Lindsay as I was at any 22 given time with Mr. Nussbaum. 817 1 I kind of laid it on the table for 2 Bruce, issues of what I considered to be 3 grave concern, thinking that he would be 4 equally concerned. He clearly was not. 5 Q What specifically did you lay on 6 the table with Bruce? 7 A My fears about the files I had 8 witnessed, my fears about the aftermath of 9 Vince Foster's death, the fears I had had as 10 it pertained to Joel Klein's clear attempts 11 to undermine Mr. Nussbaum. The feeling that 12 I had that Joel Klein was disingenuous and 13 that he was, I think I used the term a snake 14 oil salesman, that I felt he was doing a 15 disservice to the First Lady and to the 16 President by the way he operated. 17 I've since come to believe that 18 that was precisely why he was hired, but at 19 the time I thought that they needed to know 20 what I was witnessing with Mr. Klein. 21 Clearly they already knew and didn't mind. 22 Q Do you know whether Mr. Klein was 818 1 hired by Hillary Clinton or not? 2 A He was, actually -- 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 4 THE WITNESS: But he was hired, 5 brought on by Bernie Nussbaum who had 6 recommended him to Hillary. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q How do you know that he was hired 9 by Hillary Clinton? 10 A Because Bernie told me. 11 Q What specifically did he tell you? 12 A I just told you. 13 Q Was there anything more, he was 14 hired by Hillary, Hillary wanted him there? 15 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you ask where does he come 19 from? 20 A I remember at the time he had said 21 he was a constitutional, as I recall, I 22 believe he said he was a constitutional law 819 1 expert, local office in D.C., something about 2 having clerked for a Supreme Court Justice or 3 something. 4 Q What did you talk to with 5 Mr. Lindsay, specifically about the FBI 6 files? 7 You said you had concerns about 8 what you had seen, what did you relay in 9 terms of the concerns? 10 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A Well I relayed to him what Betsy 14 Pond had said to me, that this was, that 15 these were FBI files, that, you know, I felt 16 that somehow or another the Counsel's Office 17 was using these files, or potentially using 18 these files to arm themselves with ammunition 19 about real or perceived enemies of the 20 Administration, that that struck a cord of 21 fear in me. 22 I brought up the Travel Office. 820 1 Q What about the Travel Office did 2 you bring up? 3 A That I felt that these files had a 4 direct correlation to what ultimately 5 happened to Billy Dale, that that was 6 horrifying to me, and I was completely sure 7 it would be as horrifying to him. 8 I had never felt that Bruce Lindsay 9 was an integral part of the Travel Office 10 debacle, I never really thought. I thought 11 he was above the fray, so to speak. The 12 protector, but not down in the weeds getting 13 his hands dirty. 14 So I thought this would be 15 somewhat -- I thought it would be of interest 16 to Bruce. 17 Q Did you tell Mr. Lindsay what files 18 you had seen of the Travel Office workers and 19 other files that you identified during this 20 deposition? 21 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 22 THE WITNESS: The only thing I 821 1 think I remember saying at all is that I 2 remember seeing Billy Dale's. I said to 3 Bruce Lindsay's, Billy Dale's, as opposed to 4 just being a file with the name Dale on it. 5 Billy Dale's file, Chris Emory's file. 6 I think I may have at that time 7 even said Bill Kennedy's file and that it was 8 odd to me that he was the only Counsel's 9 Office staff member whose file was maintained 10 up there. 11 Q Did you tell him about seeing these 12 files being loaded on to a computer? 13 A All I remember telling him is, 14 again, as it related to Betsy Pond having 15 told me that it was FBI files as she was 16 entering data, so. 17 Q Did you tell him anything about the 18 conversation that you overheard between 19 Mr. Kennedy and Marcia Scott concerning the 20 Democratic National Committee that you've 21 testified to? 22 A I don't recall, I'm sorry. 822 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Where did this conversation -- 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman, before 5 your next question, I just want to lodge a 6 standing objection to this entire line of 7 questioning as beyond the scope of either the 8 direct or cross-examination that has occurred 9 with this witness up until now. 10 MR. KLAYMAN: You can even lodge a 11 sitting objection, if you'd like. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Excuse me one 13 second. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q When, approximately, did this 16 conversation take place? 17 A Well I believe it happened, to the 18 best of my recollection, I think it was just 19 prior to Bernie's resignation, but it was not 20 the only conversation I had with him about 21 this. It seems to me that it had to have 22 been between, very shortly before March 5th 823 1 and through the end of April time frame. I'm 2 just not positive. 3 Q About how many conversations did 4 you have with Bruce Lindsay about this? 5 A Several. 6 Q More than 10? 7 A No, uh-uh. I had a -- two or three 8 with Bruce. One sticks out, as I said, with 9 a greater level of detail. I mean, this was 10 a bigger conversation, a longer conversation. 11 But I also had conversations with 12 Bruce once Joel Klein removed me from the 13 Counsel's Office and suggested I find another 14 position within the White House compound, and 15 asked for his assistance in ensuring that I 16 was placed appropriately elsewhere. 17 Q When did these other conversations 18 take place, approximately? 19 A Well, I believe I moved over to the 20 Old Executive Office Building in May, so it 21 was probably May or thereafter, and again, 22 several conversations culminating in August 824 1 of '94. 2 Q Where did these conversations take 3 place? 4 A Often in his West Wing office. 5 Sometimes in the corridor in the old EOB. 6 Q This conversation that sticks out 7 in your mind, was it longer than the other 8 conversations? 9 A Yes. It was actually I called him 10 and told him I'd like to see him. 11 Q Where did that conversation take 12 place? 13 A That was in his West Wing office. 14 Q When the conversation took place, 15 was anyone present other than you and 16 Mr. Lindsay? 17 A In his office? 18 Q Yes. 19 A No. 20 Q Was the door open or closed? 21 A Open. 22 Q Did you take notes during the 825 1 conversation? 2 A I didn't. 3 Q Did he? 4 A I don't know. I don't remember. 5 Q Do you know whether he ever 6 recorded conversations in his office? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q When you told Mr. Lindsay about 9 your concerns about the FBI files and the 10 Travel Office firings and Mr. Emory, what was 11 his response? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, it was 14 different than what I had expected. I 15 thought, it had taken me a great deal of sort 16 of convincing myself this was the right thing 17 to do and that Bruce Lindsay was the right 18 person to speak to about all of this. 19 I knew that Mr. Nussbaum valued his 20 friendship and thought highly of Mr. Lindsay, 21 so it just appeared to me to be the right 22 choice and his reaction was just not what I 826 1 had expected. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Was it anything other than what you 4 testified to earlier this morning, talk like 5 that will destroy you? 6 A It was clear that I was not giving 7 him any news flashes at all. These were not 8 news bulletins to Bruce. 9 Q Did he say he would look in to it? 10 A No, basically he said that -- he 11 did make an actual statement about Joel 12 Klein. He said it's too late now, he knows 13 too much. He didn't say it in a way like 14 covert, oh, he knows too much. It's like now 15 he's completely immersed as the Whitewater 16 damage control lawyer. He was very frank 17 with me about that. 18 I said are you aware of the kinds 19 of things he's doing and the things he's 20 saying to the other staff members and senior 21 staff members, at that, about Mr. Nussbaum. 22 He shook his head and kind of as to say, you 827 1 know, what can you do. We are stuck with him 2 now is kind of the feeling I had. 3 So, that seemed appropriate, an 4 appropriate response, or one that I would 5 have envisioned coming from Mr. Lindsay. But 6 the rest of the conversation led me to 7 believe that he wasn't surprised at all about 8 behaviors that I was addressing. 9 Q When you say he said we are stuck 10 with Klein or gave you that impression -- 11 A Again, it was, yes, casual, you 12 know, we are stuck with him. He may not have 13 used the word stuck. Here's here to stay 14 or -- 15 Q He knows too much? 16 A He did say he knows too much. He's 17 completely immeshed, he's completely 18 involved. 19 Q Did you take that to mean you can't 20 get rid of him because then he could spill 21 the beans; is that the impression you had? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 828 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to form. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 5 leading. Go ahead. 6 Do you understand the question? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer it. 9 THE WITNESS: What I took from that 10 conversation was that whether or not these 11 things I was saying had merit, it was clearly 12 way too late to pull the plug on Joel Klein. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q Again, you were interested in 15 pulling the plug on Joel Klein because of 16 what you had observed about his activities 17 and about what his attitude was towards 18 Mr. Nussbaum? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection. 20 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 21 irrelevant, calls for speculation, lack of 22 foundation. 829 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to form, 4 objection to relevance. 5 THE WITNESS: What does that mean, 6 do I answer or not? 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer. 8 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the 9 question? 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q What I'm trying to understand is 12 were you kind of making a subtle 13 recommendation to Lindsay to get rid of Klein 14 because of what you had heard and observed? 15 A I did make that recommendation to 16 Bruce Lindsay and if that sounds unusual or 17 as though I was inserting myself in an 18 inappropriate way, I had developed that level 19 of candor with Bruce Lindsay over time during 20 my tenure at the White House. 21 Q So based on your experience and 22 dealing with Mr. Klein, your impression was 830 1 you were dealing here with a very bad 2 character? 3 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 4 relevance, leading, form. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 6 leading, relevance, form. 7 THE WITNESS: Geez, I didn't feel I 8 was bringing to Bruce's attention something 9 that was presumptuous on my part. I felt 10 that he needed to be aware of what I was 11 witnessing. 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q During the time that you worked in 14 the White House Counsel's Office, are you 15 aware of any individuals, outside of the 16 Administration that had asked favors from 17 Mr. Klein? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'll object on 19 that question on the basis of scope and 20 relevance. 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Scope, relevance, 22 speculation. 831 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q In other words, somebody to the 4 effect I know where to find out information 5 about so and so? 6 A I don't know how that may have 7 happened or not. I don't know. 8 Q During the time that you worked in 9 the White House Counsel's Office, do you know 10 of any contact by James Carville with that 11 office? 12 A With our office? 13 Q Yes. 14 A Frequently. 15 Q What do you know about that? 16 A Just that he was there a lot. He 17 was there a lot. 18 Q Who did he meet with? 19 A Oh, heavens. He, when he was on 20 the second floor, I only knew him to meet 21 with -- well, let me correct, I only knew 22 that he went into Mrs. Clinton's office. 832 1 Whether he met with her or not, I don't know, 2 but that was relatively routinely. 3 Q What did you mean by relatively 4 routinely? 5 A I saw him frequently enter her 6 office. 7 Q More than once a week? 8 A Oh, no, no, I don't mean, he didn't 9 come to work there. A couple times a month, 10 whatever. I mean we saw James relatively 11 frequently anyway in the compound. 12 Counsel's Office, yeah. I would 13 see him in our office. I don't remember 14 right now, I don't ever remember him visiting 15 Bernie. I think he came to see Vince a 16 couple of times. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection that this 18 line of questioning falls outside the scope 19 of direct and cross-examination. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Did you see Carville meet with Joel 22 Klein at all? 833 1 A I don't have a recollection of that 2 right now. 3 Q Did you see him meet with William 4 Kennedy? 5 A Yes. No, correct, I saw him speak 6 with William Kennedy on more than one 7 occasion in the corridors. I don't remember 8 whether or not they had a meeting. 9 This didn't seem unusual to us. 10 James was someone who was held in high 11 regards in the Administration and seemed to 12 have unlimited access, so it didn't surprise 13 us at all. 14 Q Have you seen press reports that 15 James Carville keeps files on adversaries of 16 the Administration? 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Are you aware of press reports that 21 Carville is a friend of Larry Flint? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 834 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to 2 relevance, scope, beyond the scope of direct 3 and cross. You may answer. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't remember, I 6 don't remember seeing such press reports. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q Are you aware of press reports that 9 Tonya Flint says that Carville gave Flint FBI 10 files? 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Same objection. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection to scope 13 and relevance. 14 THE WITNESS: I haven't followed 15 the Hustler magazine connection with this 16 White House, although nothing would surprise 17 me. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q During the time you were in the 20 White House Counsel's Office, did you see 21 anybody from Williams and Connolly? 22 A First of all, I believe I've seen 835 1 Mr. Gaffney before, but I'm not sure where. 2 Q It wasn't outside your house, was 3 it? 4 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 5 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: No. It's usually, a 7 recollection I believe I would have had 8 during my White House tenure, but again, I'm 9 not positive. 10 Mr. Kendall, I believe, is from 11 Williams and Connolly? 12 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 13 Q Yes. 14 A I worked with Mr. Kendall 15 frequently with Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Lindsay 16 and saw him frequently. 17 Q Did you ever discuss the FBI files 18 with Mr. Kendall? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q In addition to Mr. Lindsay, did you 836 1 discuss the FBI files with anyone else at the 2 White House? 3 Well, obviously, Betsy Pond and 4 Debra Gorham. But, in addition to Debra 5 Gorham and Betsy Pond and Bruce Lindsay, did 6 you discuss your concerns about FBI files 7 with anybody else? 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, outside 10 the scope of the direct and cross. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You can respond. 13 A I don't know. I don't know that I, 14 I may have with Deb Coyle, Bruce Lindsay's 15 assistant. I may have with members of the 16 career support staff. 17 Q Who may have you discussed it with? 18 This is just discovery, we don't need 19 absolute certainty here. 20 A I'd rather not. 21 Q We need to know that because of 22 discovery. 837 1 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Do you have any 2 recollection? 3 THE WITNESS: I just don't have a 4 specific recollection of who. I just know 5 that it was something that bothered me at the 6 time, so it is likely I would have mentioned 7 it to others with whom I had a -- I know, for 8 instance, that I mentioned it with two people 9 who are still at the White House and for 10 reasons, obviously, that might affect their 11 future employment, I'd prefer not to name 12 them. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You have to name them, 15 unfortunately. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Is there a 17 question? 18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, she has to name 19 them, Zac. 20 THE WITNESS: I have to name them? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: Kate Fredrich and 838 1 Irene McGowan. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q How do you spell their names? 4 A Fredrich with a c-h at the end, and 5 McGowan, I'm not sure, is M-a-c or 6 M-c-g-o-w-a-n. 7 Q They are still at the White House? 8 A To the best of my knowledge. I 9 haven't spoken to them since this time last 10 year. 11 Q Where did they work at the time you 12 talked to them about the FBI files? 13 A White House personnel. 14 Q Which one worked in White House 15 personnel, both? 16 A Both, and then one took positions 17 with the NSC and last I understood she was 18 working for Sandy Berger in the West Wing. 19 Q What specifically did you say to 20 Ms. McGowan? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If you recall. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 839 1 Q Just give us what you can remember. 2 A I related to them essentially 3 everything that you see in the book proposal. 4 Q Was there a distinction between 5 what you relayed to one as opposed to the 6 other? 7 A No. 8 Q When did you relay this information 9 to them? 10 A Prior to my departure from the 11 White House. 12 Q Just refresh our recollection on 13 that date. 14 A My departure from the White House 15 was August of '94, so it was prior to that. 16 Q If either of these two individuals 17 were questioned under oath, do you have any 18 reason to believe they may not confirm that 19 you spoke to them about the FBI files at the 20 time? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 22 speculation. 840 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q You can respond. 4 A I feel in the case of one of them 5 that I may have firsthand knowledge of 6 whether she would or not at this point in 7 time. 8 I would have said prior to this 9 year that neither one of them would ever 10 bastardize their integrity by lying under 11 oath. I thought very highly of both of them. 12 I still do. 13 But I can tell you unequivocally 14 that Kate Fredrich in her testimony either 15 before the Grand Jury or in a deposition has 16 denied certain conversations that I had with 17 her and has done so under oath. 18 Q Do you believe that Ms. McGowan 19 would come forward and tell the truth? 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 21 speculation. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 841 1 Q One way or the other, do you have 2 any reason to believe one way or the other? 3 A I will reiterate that until this 4 past year I would have never doubted their 5 integrity or their absolute obligation 6 personally to themselves to speak the truth 7 under oath. 8 I think now that I, I think that 9 survival is probably the driving force. 10 Q Physical survival? 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 12 speculation. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection to the 14 form. 15 THE WITNESS: Professional, 16 professional career survival. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What is it that you said about 19 William Kennedy to Bruce Lindsay, you said 20 that was another thing that you discussed 21 with him? 22 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 842 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q Another topic. 3 A I don't recall if I spoke with him 4 in any level of detail at all about the 5 database concerns I had with his 6 conversations I had overheard with Marcia 7 Scott, I don't remember. I may well have. 8 But I do remember talking to him 9 about the files in Bill Kennedy's office. 10 Q Did you tell him about how Kennedy 11 when you asked if they were vetting files 12 gave you the impression otherwise? 13 A No, I don't recall saying that at 14 all. I don't think we got -- 15 Q Did you tell him how many files you 16 had seen? 17 A I don't think we got into that 18 level of detail. 19 I remember saying hundreds of 20 files. It was my belief that they were files 21 of political enemies, real or perceived. 22 But, no, I don't remember 843 1 discussing anything beyond that. 2 Q Did you ever see Lindsay go into 3 Kennedy's office? 4 A I have no recollection of that, no. 5 Q During the time that you worked in 6 the White House, were there persons or 7 entities identified as adversaries of the 8 Administration? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 10 speculation, vague, lacks foundation. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You talked about the so-called 13 adversaries, enemies, whatever you want to 14 call them. 15 Do you remember certain individuals 16 or entities or groups being mentioned when 17 you worked at the White House? 18 A Well, the independent counsel. I 19 think it was prior, it may well have been 20 prior to Judge Starr, even. 21 Q Anyone else? 22 A I just don't remember. I mean I 844 1 don't have a memory of a hate list or 2 anything, or any list that way, no. 3 Q When you talked about Klein being 4 in charge of Whitewater damage control, we 5 are using the word Whitewater broadly or 6 narrowly, did you mean scandal control? 7 A Well no, it was actually called 8 Whitewater damage control. It was, perhaps 9 over time, now it would be perceived 10 differently, but at the time that was the way 11 the scandal had been referred to in the 12 press. Remember the time frame. 13 Q Do you know whether anyone ever 14 relayed your concerns about the FBI files and 15 the Travel Office firings to Hillary Clinton? 16 A I have no idea. 17 Q Are you aware that in this lawsuit 18 Terry Good testified that he saw a typed 19 document from you relating to your employment 20 status in a box that came from Joel Klein? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 22 mischaracterizes Mr. Good's testimony. 845 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q You can respond. 3 A I'm sorry, I don't understand. 4 Q In this case we've taken the 5 testimony of Terry Good; are you aware of 6 that? 7 A Uh-huh, yes. 8 Q Mr. Good testified that a document 9 which came from Klein's office had 10 documentation concerning you; are you aware 11 of that? 12 A No, I'm sorry, I'm not. 13 Q Do you know whether Mr. Klein kept 14 a file on you, Linda Tripp? 15 A Do I know. I know what I was told 16 by Julie Mixell. 17 Q What did Julie Mixell tell you? 18 A She had said that you don't want to 19 cross Mr. Klein. You don't want to cross 20 Mr. Klein. She intimated to me that he kept 21 information on people who crossed him. From 22 that I tended to believe that it was possible 846 1 that I could be on that list. 2 Q She told you that he kept files of 3 people who crossed him? 4 A Information, I believe she said. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q Did you ever see Ms. Mixell prepare 8 files with labels on it with peoples' names? 9 A Yes, but I don't know, I can't 10 remember with any level of specificity 11 whether it was enemies names or friends 12 names. 13 Q Where were those files stored? 14 A In Mr. Klein's office. 15 Q In a file cabinet? 16 A Yes, in -- file credenza, as I 17 remember. 18 Q Was there any kind of procedure in 19 the White House Counsel's Office for keeping 20 an inventory of files when you worked there? 21 A It was horribly lax. 22 Q Did some people keep an inventory 847 1 of their files and others not? 2 A Vince Foster kept a rather detailed 3 inventory of his files. 4 Q Where did he keep that inventory? 5 A In his files, I believe, in his 6 office. 7 Q After he died, did you ever see 8 that inventory? 9 A I don't recall seeing. I saw, I 10 think I saw it in some proceeding, but I 11 don't remember seeing it actually while I was 12 there. 13 Q Did Mr. Kennedy keep an inventory 14 of his files? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Mr. Lindsay? 17 A Don't know. 18 Q Were you aware of any kind of 19 filing system to keep information about 20 people or organizations? 21 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 22 vagueness. 848 1 THE WITNESS: I only refer back to 2 my experience with people base in the 3 President's Office. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q What is people base? 6 A I don't know. It was what it 7 was -- it was referred to me as a database of 8 supporters, friends. 9 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 10 Q During the time that you worked in 11 the White House Counsel's Office, are you 12 aware of any matter involving Microsoft? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, beyond 14 the scope of cross and direct. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Irrelevant. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Did you ever see Joel Klein go into 19 William Kennedy's office? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Did you have any contact with a 22 lawyer by the name of Cheryl Mills when you 849 1 worked in the White House Counsel's Office? 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, beyond 3 the scope. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Beyond the scope of 5 direct and cross. Join. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q You can respond. 8 A Routinely. 9 Q Under what circumstances did you 10 have contact with Ms. Mills? 11 A First of all, that started well 12 before my tenure began in the Counsel's 13 Office. I met Cheryl early days, I believe, 14 when I worked with Bruce Lindsay. 15 Q What was her job? 16 A I think at the time she was 17 probably one of the many, I think she was an 18 associate counsel, I believe. 19 Q What did you understand her duties 20 and responsibilities to be when you worked in 21 the White House Counsel's Office? 22 A I don't recall which area of the 850 1 counsel's office was her responsibility. I 2 just recall being completely aware from the 3 very early time forward that she was a very 4 valued and trusted aide. 5 Q Based on your experience in working 6 in the White House Counsel's Office, did she 7 play a role in Whitewater damage control? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 9 irrelevant. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A Yes, that was a name, one of a 13 couple of others that I had failed to mention 14 and completely forgot about Cheryl, actually, 15 having to do with the John Padesta meetings 16 that we had spoken of prior to today. 17 Q Which were the meetings where they 18 discussed the various scandals? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q Did you ever have any discussions 21 with Ms. Mills about FBI files or any other 22 concerns? 851 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever see Ms. Mills in the 3 presence of Hillary Clinton? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q On several occasions or one 8 occasion, how many occasions? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, form. 10 THE WITNESS: Several. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Did you ever overhear any 13 conversations? 14 A No. I think I saw Cheryl in 15 Mrs. Clinton's presence, frankly every time 16 that I, my recollection tells me every time I 17 did, she was with Bruce, as well. 18 Q So the three of them would meet? 19 A I don't know if they met. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 21 THE WITNESS: I've seen them speak. 22 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 852 1 Q Where did you see them speak? 2 A Whether it was down in Bruce's area 3 or the President's area or in Hillary's area. 4 Again, I can't tell you today that it was a 5 formal meeting of any kind. I remember 6 seeing the three of them speak, several 7 times. 8 Q Are you aware of Mrs. Clinton 9 calling Ms. Mills frequently? 10 A I wouldn't know that. I can tell 11 you that, I reiterate that she was completely 12 trusted, that she seemed to -- 13 Q Trusted by whom? 14 A Mr. Lindsay. She seemed to have a 15 very close, shall we say, relationship with 16 Mr. Lindsay, far closer than other peers. 17 Q What led you to believe that she 18 had a close relationship with Mr. Lindsay? 19 A Her routine direct line of 20 communication, unlike that of other 21 associates. 22 My experience during the time that 853 1 I was downstairs in the West Wing office of 2 Bruce Lindsay in the immediate Office of the 3 President I came to know Cheryl Mills far 4 more than any other associate and certain 5 things she relayed to me, frankly. 6 Q Did she ever say anything to you 7 that caused you concern? 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Object to the 9 vagueness, relevance. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A Concern, maybe of a personal 13 nature, not of a professional nature. 14 Q Of your personal nature or her 15 personal nature? 16 A Excuse me one moment. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm going to 18 object to the question on the basis of 19 relevance that it's beyond the scope of the 20 direct and cross-examination. 21 I'm also going to instruct my 22 witness not to respond to the question based 854 1 upon the fact that I think it relates to 2 privileged communications within the White 3 House Counsel's Office. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I would join in that 5 instruction, then. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sure that you're 7 happy to, Mr. Gilligan, but can we have an 8 identification of the subject matter, the 9 date of the communication and the general 10 subject matter as one would have if you're 11 going to do a privileged log. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I've got it, Betsy. 13 I think, yes, that we need to take a break 14 and I need to confer with Mr. Zaccagnini 15 before there's any further questioning on 16 this subject. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q Let me finish up a few questions 19 here before we do that. 20 Is there anyone other than who 21 you've identified today and in prior 22 deposition sessions who you discussed FBI 855 1 files with, either inside or outside of the 2 White House? 3 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, asked and 5 answered. 6 THE WITNESS: I just don't know. 7 Do you mind, let me think about it through 8 the break. I really haven't thought about 9 this, so -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'd like to keep the 11 break to five minutes. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: The break will be as 13 long as and short as necessary. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well you're not 15 representing her, Mr. Gilligan. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: I'm representing the 17 interests of the White House. If there's 18 privileged information you're seeking to 19 elicit here, I am representing -- 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not seeking to 21 elicit anything that's legitimately 22 privileged. 856 1 MR. GILLIGAN: Well, it may take 2 more than -- 3 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask you to keep it 4 to five minutes. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: It may take more 6 than five minutes to ascertain that, 7 Mr. Klayman. 8 You only have 45 minutes of 9 testimony left. We're not in a hurry. 10 (Recess) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q You may respond. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: With respect to 14 that question, Mr. Klayman, I'm going to 15 assert a privilege. The communications that 16 Ms. Tripp would offer in response to that 17 question deal with privileged communications 18 amongst White House staff, White House 19 counsel staff, relating to matters about 20 Whitewater, with specificity about how 21 witnesses may or may not testify, what they 22 know, what they are expected to say. 857 1 Additionally, a possible response 2 to that question, also I would object and 3 advise my client not to respond to the 4 question because another communication deals 5 with a highly personal nature related to 6 Ms. Mills that is completely irrelevant to 7 the scope of this deposition and would tend 8 to cause embarrassment or harm to her. 9 I would submit that if necessary, 10 we would submit our response to the Court for 11 an in-camera review and allow the Judge to 12 make a determination. 13 Again I think this is largely 14 consistent with the Court's finding in the 15 Betsy Pond and Debra Gorham matter. 16 MR. GILLIGAN: Just for the record, 17 EOP joins in the objection and the 18 instruction for the reasons stated. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: The problem I have 20 with that, and it's fine if we want to 21 approach the Court, but we have filed a 22 pleading recently to have the prior rulings 858 1 reconsidered based on Ms. Tripp's earlier 2 testimony during the last session about 3 certain concerns about how Ms. Pond may 4 testify if called upon to do so in this case. 5 To the extent that there are 6 personal issues that individuals do not want 7 exposed or released into the media, then 8 that's the kind of a situation that could 9 create coercion in terms of a witness' 10 testimony. It may help explain certain 11 behavior in terms of why people did certain 12 things and didn't do other things. 13 So these are very relevant issues. 14 We are happy to submit it to the Court and I 15 hope that when we do so, you can give a 16 little more detailed proffer to the Judge. 17 But I don't think we all understood 18 at the time what the nature of the perceived 19 difficulties Ms. Tripp would have with the 20 testimony of Ms. Pond. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I understand and 22 obviously we'll defer to the Court's ruling 859 1 on that matter. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: I just want to add 3 this has nothing to do with Ms. Pond, so I 4 don't see what relevance that has, but why 5 don't we forge ahead. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: It has something to 7 do with the whole issue of secrets that 8 people don't want disclosed and the potential 9 that those secrets could be used to coerce 10 individuals into testifying in a particular 11 way. 12 MR. GILLIGAN: I understand your 13 theory, Mr. Klayman. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you elaborate 15 more, Mr. Zaccagnini, about the Whitewater 16 subjects? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I won't at this 18 time, I'm sorry. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: What is meant by 20 Whitewater; is it a euphemism for scandal? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: From my 22 perspective it means the White House's 860 1 counsel that were assigned to that matter 2 which were already discussed in terms of 3 damage control. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: We know that the 5 White House Whitewater damage control team 6 dealt with more than Whitewater, per se. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right, I 8 understand. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm taking it to mean 10 that. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes, it does mean 12 Whitewater. 13 MR. GILLIGAN: You can take it to 14 mean whatever you want, Mr. Klayman, the 15 stated subject matter is Whitewater. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you Judge 17 Gilligan. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Ms. Tripp. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you have reason to believe based 22 on your having observed the interaction 861 1 between Ms. Mills and Mr. Lindsay that 2 Mr. Lindsay would have shared with Ms. Mills 3 the concerns you had about the FBI files? 4 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, lack of 5 foundation, calls for speculation. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 7 speculation. You may answer. 8 THE WITNESS: I would have no 9 firsthand knowledge of that. I can only say 10 that based on my observation of their 11 relationship, it would be quite likely that 12 they might have discussed this very issue. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the 15 court reporter to mark as Exhibit No. 18. 16 This is the first privileged log which you 17 made available to all the counsel here today, 18 your counsel did, at least, Mr. Zaccagnini. 19 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 18 20 was marked for identification.) 21 MR. MAZUR: This is the first 22 amended one? 862 1 MR. KLAYMAN: First amended 2 privileged log. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q Is this something which your 5 counsel has produced here today, Ms. Tripp? 6 A Yes, it is. 7 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the 8 court reporter to mark as Exhibit No. 19. 9 (Tripp Deposition Exhibit No. 19 10 was marked for identification.) 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q I ask you to tell us exactly what 13 Exhibit No. 19 is, something that your 14 counsel handed to me before the deposition? 15 A This is the redacted version of the 16 so-called book proposal prepared by Maggie 17 Gallagher with information provided to her by 18 me. 19 Q This was typed out by Maggie 20 Gallagher? 21 A Yes, it was. 22 Q Was there a cover to this book 863 1 proposal? 2 A A cover? 3 Q Yes. I see the pages here, I have 4 pages that are numbered 1, 2 -- 5 A If you look at Page 2, I believe 6 that the redacted Chapters 1 through 3 came 7 prior to that. The table of contents would 8 have been I believe the first page. 9 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's identify each 10 page. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, just 12 so the record is clear and there was a title 13 page, but I think that's all it said, was 14 title, so. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Why did you redact 16 that, then? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Quite simply 18 because I didn't think it was relevant. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: Were there other 20 pages that were not produced in toto? 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Oh, absolutely. 22 Ms. Tripp can testify to this, but for the 864 1 record, the book proposal, itself, is 47 2 pages, of which we've provided those pages, 3 copies of those pages which we assert were 4 relevant to the deposition process and the 5 balance which our objections are noted. 6 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 7 Q How was this book proposal bound, 8 was it a book, was it in a folder? How was 9 it produced? 10 A It resembled, quite frankly, very 11 much the document you have in front of you. 12 It was not bound in any way. It was a draft, 13 let's remember. It was a work in progress, 14 an aborted work, as it happens. 15 Q Was this book proposal ever 16 provided to anyone other than Ms. Gallagher? 17 A No, other than my attorneys, I'm 18 sorry, or the OIC. 19 Q Yes. Who was it provided to? 20 A I believe, I'm not certain, but I 21 believe we provided it to the Office of the 22 Independent Counsel in the course of this 865 1 investigation. I had handed my only copy 2 over to my then attorney, Kirby Bear, and, I 3 don't know, I mean. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's fine. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I 6 think it may have been then picked up by 7 Mr. Moody who became a new attorney. 8 In any event, I hadn't seen it 9 since I handed it over to my attorney well 10 over a year ago. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The document which comprises 13 Exhibit No. 19, is it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Is 10 pages, can you count the 16 pages? 17 A Correct. 18 MR. KLAYMAN: I take it, 19 Mr. Zaccagnini, the totality of this calendar 20 is going to be provided to the Court in 21 camera in this case? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 866 1 MR. KLAYMAN: When will you do 2 that? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Probably Monday. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Would you file a 5 notice that you've done that with us? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Sure. Everybody 7 will be notified. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q When was this book proposal 10 written? 11 A To the best of my memory, it had to 12 have been in the June time frame; June, July 13 time frame of '96. It followed Mr. Aldrich's 14 publication and subsequent book tour of 15 Unlimited Access: An FBI Agent Story From 16 Within the Clinton White House, which was 17 precisely the reason for the existence of 18 this book proposal. 19 Q When this book proposal was 20 written, was Ms. Gallagher in your presence? 21 A I'm sorry? 22 Q Was Ms. Gallagher in your presence 867 1 when the book proposal was written? 2 A No, I only met Maggie Gallagher 3 once. Other conversations that we had were 4 by phone. 5 Q Correct me if I'm wrong, she's the 6 one that typed this? 7 A Yes, so she claims, yes, I was not 8 with her. 9 Q Where was she when she typed it? 10 A I assume in her residence in New 11 York. 12 Q Where is her residence in New York? 13 Do you know where she lives? 14 A I don't. She lived, I'm sorry, I 15 just don't remember the name of the town. 16 She lived not in Manhattan. I just don't 17 remember. 18 Q Do you know where she is now? 19 A I believe she's still in New York, 20 but I don't, I don't know. I'm sure she can 21 be reached through Lucianne Goldberg. 22 Q The information which is contained 868 1 in this book proposal which you've produced 2 was given to her orally by you? 3 A All of it, yes. Let me caveat that 4 with this is her version of what I provided 5 to her orally and to the extent that there 6 are errors in some of the retelling, those 7 are errors of interpretation. 8 Q That she made? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Did she ever give you a copy of the 11 book proposal to review for accuracy? 12 A Well that's precisely the document 13 we are speaking of right now. 14 Q Right. When did you review it? 15 A Again, in that same time frame, 16 over -- I believe we worked together over a 17 six-week period by phone. Sometime in that 18 time frame and then I received this by Fed Ex 19 for review. 20 I read through once, made some 21 edits, realized that this was not going to 22 work for me and did not continue with edits 869 1 and, in fact, withdrew from the project. 2 Q Is the document that you provided 3 to us today an edited version? 4 A Yes. 5 Q But there are still errors in it? 6 A Many. 7 Q She didn't make all of the edits 8 that you proposed? 9 A I never sent it back. 10 Q Let's turn to the first page, the 11 hundreds and hundreds of files stacked in 12 Bill Kennedy's Old Executive Office Building, 13 were you referring to the FBI files there? 14 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 15 THE WITNESS: I was referring to 16 what I believed to be the FBI files, correct. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q What Betsy Pond told you were the 19 FBI files? 20 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 21 THE WITNESS: Again, that was my 22 understanding of what Betsy Pond had said, 870 1 yes. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Then it says at the bottom my 4 firsthand knowledge of Hillary Clinton's true 5 involvement in the firing of the Travel 6 Office staff. 7 That firsthand knowledge, was that 8 the memorandum that you testified to during 9 the last session? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Was there anything else other than 12 that memorandum that gave you firsthand 13 knowledge, as well as your having seen the 14 interaction of Hillary Clinton with people in 15 the office? 16 A I would refer you to that section 17 of the book proposal. That was my best 18 recollection at that time and we can go over 19 it line by line if you'd like to see if 20 there's areas that require editing or 21 correction. 22 Q Yes, let's turn to that part that 871 1 you're now referring. 2 A Well, it seems to appear in many 3 different areas, where would you like to 4 start? 5 Q Let's take it page by page and 6 we'll come back to it. Let's turn to the 7 second page, which is table of contents. 8 Chapter 4, Mrs. President. 9 A Uh-huh. 10 Q Now were you referring to Hillary 11 Clinton? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Why did you call her 14 Mrs. President? 15 A That's how I perceived 16 Mrs. Clinton. 17 Q You perceived her as having equal 18 if not greater power than Bill Clinton? 19 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 21 leading. You can answer the question. 22 THE WITNESS: I perceived 872 1 Mrs. Clinton to have equal authority. 2 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 3 Q Was it your perception that Hillary 4 Clinton could order certain actions in the 5 White House without the approval of the 6 President? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, form, 9 relevance, speculation. 10 MR. GILLIGAN: Form. Join. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q Was that your belief? 13 A My belief was that at times, 14 depending upon the balance of what I 15 perceived to be the power structure in their 16 relationship, that at times, yes, she could 17 effectively order things to happen without 18 his permission. 19 Q Do you have examples of that? 20 A This is an impression I had. 21 Q Then you state under 22 "Mrs. President, What I saw that persuaded me 873 1 Hillary lied under oath regarding Travel 2 Gate. Her ongoing deceptions with respect to 3 Filegate. Hillary's true, unacknowledged 4 role at the White House and in the Counsel's 5 Office." 6 What was it that you saw that 7 persuaded you that Hillary lied under oath 8 regarding Filegate? 9 A Travelgate. 10 Q Anything other than the memorandum 11 that you've testified to during the last 12 session? 13 A Well, there was a period when 14 Mrs. Clinton was appearing I believe on Larry 15 King Live and on other broadcasts concerning 16 her involvement in having had to testify 17 before the Grand Jury on Travel Gate; and 18 during these broadcasts and in these 19 interviews, she referenced her own testimony 20 as having completely disavowed any knowledge 21 of the, any personal knowledge or any hand in 22 the firing of the Travel Office and I knew 874 1 that to be untrue. 2 Q What was the basis of your knowing 3 that to be untrue? 4 A Specifically the memo and certainly 5 impressions, also. 6 Q Then you state, in her ongoing 7 deceptions with respect to Filegate, is that 8 accurate? 9 A Yes. 10 Q What were Mrs. Clinton's ongoing 11 deceptions with regard to Filegate? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 13 THE WITNESS: I am referring here 14 and Maggie is taking my words and 15 acknowledging that my impression was that 16 Mrs. Clinton was not being honest or 17 forthcoming as it related to the files that 18 were housed in the Counsel's Office. 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q What led you to believe that? 21 A I believe that they were there for 22 a nefarious reason. I believe that they were 875 1 there intentionally. I have never believed, 2 not even for the shortest of moments, that it 3 was a bureaucratic snafu. 4 Q Is that belief based on the 5 testimony prior to today, as well as today? 6 A Certainly, and also that had it 7 been true that it was a bureaucratic snafu, 8 one would surmise that it would have been 9 corrected. 10 Q How could it have been corrected 11 based on your knowledge and experience? 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 13 speculation, relevance, beyond the scope. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q You can respond. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Go ahead. 17 THE WITNESS: Personal impressions 18 only? 19 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 20 Q Yes. 21 A Would be that they would have been 22 returned from whence they came and that they 876 1 certainly would not have continued to request 2 more additional raw FBI data files. 3 Q Is your belief also based upon the 4 statements Mrs. Clinton made concerning the 5 hiring of Craig Livingstone? 6 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q In terms of her ongoing deceptions? 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, leading. 10 THE WITNESS: Frankly, I don't 11 recall Mrs. Clinton's words concerning Craig 12 Livingstone. I know that she, I've read 13 press reports that say that she has disavowed 14 any knowledge, but I don't recall that at the 15 time as being something that made me question 16 that specifically. 17 I do know that I believe and, in 18 fact, have included in this book proposal and 19 had included at that time that she had hired 20 Mr. Livingstone. 21 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 22 Q It's upon that fact, as well, that 877 1 you conclude that she had a hand in Filegate? 2 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 4 leading. 5 THE WITNESS: I think it had more 6 to do with Craig Livingstone's inferences and 7 implications that he let me know in no 8 uncertain terms that, A, he was hired by 9 Mrs. Clinton and, B, that he reported to 10 Mrs. Clinton on certain matters. 11 Did I have a feeling that she was 12 responsible for files, I didn't know that to 13 be true. I had a feeling he reported to her, 14 however, and my concern was that while the 15 files in Mr. Livingstone's area were not 16 nearly as voluminous as those that were in 17 Bill Kennedy's office, I still had a sense 18 that Mr. Livingstone played a part in this 19 particular issue. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q Based on your having seen the 22 interaction of the two and Mr. Livingstone's 878 1 statements that he reported to Hillary 2 Clinton, it was your belief that she must 3 have been aware of what was going on with the 4 files? 5 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, leading, 6 compound. 7 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 8 Q You can respond. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Calls for conclusion 10 based on facts not in evidence. Calls for 11 speculation. 12 MR. GAFFNEY: I join the objection. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Beyond the scope. 14 You can answer. 15 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 16 Q You can respond. This is all 17 lawyer stuff, we just want you to tell the 18 truth. 19 A I always tell the truth, 20 Mr. Klayman. 21 Q I know that. 22 A Could you repeat the question, 879 1 please? I'm serious, there's so many 2 objections. 3 Q Based upon the interaction that you 4 had seen between Mr. Livingstone and 5 Mrs. Clinton that you've testified and his 6 statements that he was hired by Mrs. Clinton, 7 it was your belief that Mrs. Clinton knew 8 about the FBI file situation? 9 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection to form. 10 THE WITNESS: I had absolutely no 11 doubt in my mind. That was my feeling, my 12 impression, I can't prove it. 13 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 14 Q You state. 15 A I might like to add something to 16 that, though. I never had that same feeling 17 as it pertained to Mr. Clinton. 18 Q Why is that? 19 A I had no reason to believe that he 20 wasn't surprised by some of these 21 revelations, frankly. I had -- 22 Q What do you base that on? 880 1 A Just exposure to him over time and 2 demeanor and perhaps a slight bit more than 3 the average person ability to tell when he's 4 being completely forthright or less so, and 5 that, again, I would chalk up to exposure. 6 So, I, frankly, believed him when 7 he indicated he wasn't particularly involved 8 or thought of it as a bureaucratic snafu 9 personally. I didn't think that was true of 10 Mrs. Clinton. 11 Q Have you always been right about 12 Mr. Clinton's ability to project telling the 13 truth? 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 15 relevance. 16 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 17 Q In your own opinion? 18 A I don't know. I don't know. I can 19 only tell you my opinion and I think I'm 20 pretty accurate, generally speaking, with 21 him, yeah. 22 Q In your conversations with 881 1 Mr. Lindsay, did he ever tell you that he had 2 contact with President Clinton? 3 A Did he ever tell me? 4 Q Yes. 5 A I don't understand. 6 Q Were you aware that Lindsay spoke 7 with the President frequently when you worked 8 at the White House? 9 A Yes. 10 Q That Lindsay was one of the 11 President's closest confidantes, was that 12 your impression? 13 A Well I believe I've testified that 14 I thought he was his closest confidante. 15 Q You saw the two of them frequently 16 together? 17 A I saw them together almost 18 constantly, travel and in town. 19 Q So based upon what you knew to be 20 that close relationship, the closest 21 confidante, would you have, did you assume 22 when you told Lindsay about the FBI files 882 1 matters that he was then going to tell the 2 President? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 4 relevance, speculation. 5 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 6 Q You can respond. 7 MR. GILLIGAN: Join. 8 THE WITNESS: I was always certain 9 in my mind that whatever I discussed with 10 Bruce, if it were of a nature that would have 11 any interest at all to the President would 12 get to the President. 13 I have failed to mention that in 14 the conversation with Bruce Lindsay, in the 15 one that I testified was lengthy, I had 16 mentioned Kathleen Wiley, and I pretty much 17 at that time thought that that would be 18 relayed to the President and I wanted it to 19 be. 20 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 21 Q What about Kathleen Wiley? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, again, 883 1 we are going beyond the scope and relevance. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection. 3 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 4 Q You can respond. You can respond. 5 A Right. Right. My observations, 6 frankly. 7 Q What observations? 8 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I think I'm going 9 to instruct the client -- 10 MR. KLAYMAN: She answered the 11 question. I'm entitled to an answer. 12 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I understand. I'm 13 going to instruct her not to answer any 14 further questions along this line because I 15 think it's clearly beyond the scope of the 16 Judge's order. 17 MR. KLAYMAN: Zac. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: First off, it's 19 beyond the scope, it's beyond the scope of 20 the direct examination, it's beyond the scope 21 of the cross-examination. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: It's interesting that 884 1 you had no problem with him going beyond the 2 scope. Mr. Gaffney went far beyond the scope 3 and I didn't hear one objection. 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, how come? No, 5 I'm kidding. 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Klayman, I've 7 allowed parties from both sides to go far 8 afield on many occasions. There are times 9 where I'm going to draw the line and this is 10 one of those occasions. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well the reason I'm 12 getting into it, Mr. Zaccagnini, is because 13 it shows a course of communication and 14 conduct and it shows the intimacy of the 15 relationship between Lindsay and the 16 President. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'm not quite sure 18 how that's relevant, but I still don't think 19 anything about Kathleen Wiley can be remotely 20 relevant to the Filegate investigation. 21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I find out 22 whether it deals with this incident, when she 885 1 left the President's office, is it about that 2 incident? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Without getting 5 graphic. 6 THE WITNESS: No, it actually 7 didn't involve that episode, no. 8 MR. KLAYMAN: Can she just testify 9 generally what else it involves? 10 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. 11 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Again, 12 Mr. Klayman, I'm going to reiterate the 13 objection and instruct my client not to 14 respond. 15 I think the inquiry goes well 16 beyond the scope of why we are here and what 17 I understand the response to be is completely 18 irrelevant to anything to do with this part 19 of the investigation of your case. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well I just, I don't 21 understand that, Mr. Zaccagnini, since 22 counsel for Mrs. Clinton basically got into 886 1 Grand Jury proceedings of the Lewinsky matter 2 for several, a good period of time during the 3 last session. 4 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 5 Q You assumed that Lindsay would have 6 told the President about your concerns? 7 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, 9 relevance. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q You can respond. 12 A I thought it was likely. 13 Q Do you know, now when you told 14 Lindsay about your concerns about the FBI 15 files, the so-called FBI file scandal had not 16 become known at that time to the public, had 17 it? 18 A When I spoke to Bruce about this? 19 Q Yes. 20 A No, uh-uh, it didn't become public 21 for some time. 22 Q Do you know whether the President 887 1 ordered any corrective action? 2 A I have no idea. I left shortly 3 thereafter, as you'll recall, I left in 4 August of '94. So I would have no firsthand 5 knowledge of what happened at the White House 6 following my departure. 7 Q Do you know of anything that you've 8 learned since you've left the White House 9 that the President took any remedial action 10 about the FBI file concerns that you 11 expressed to Lindsay? 12 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 13 THE WITNESS: It's been a long time 14 since I've read any of the press reports 15 about Filegate. I remember being at the 16 Pentagon at the time. I don't know what 17 actions, if any, he's taken. 18 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 19 Q Let's go to the next page, "A memo 20 I saw, with Hillary's handwritten note, that 21 convinced me Hillary Clinton lied under oath 22 regarding her role in the Travel Gate 888 1 firing." 2 Is that that memorandum that you 3 testified to? 4 A Right, you'll find that it appears 5 in its entirety further along in the book 6 proposal. 7 Q Then you state, "new circumstantial 8 evidence that Filegate may not have been an 9 accident of low-level employees, as the White 10 House has claimed." 11 Is there anything in addition to 12 what you've testified in this deposition that 13 allowed you to conclude such? 14 A No. 15 Q Next page, "What I never told the 16 Grand Jury about Hillary's role in Travel 17 Gate. 18 "Hillary has gone on record under 19 oath as saying she had no direct involvement 20 with the Travel Office firings. I know that 21 she did. When I testified before the Grand 22 Jury, I was asked do you have any firsthand 889 1 knowledge of Hillary Clinton having a hand in 2 the firings. I said, 'yes,' through a memo 3 and because I saw Vince go back and forth to 4 Hillary's office after every staff meeting on 5 the Travel Office. 6 "I was then questioned at some 7 length about the frequency of meetings 8 between Vince and the First Lady, but to this 9 day I don't think they know about the memo 10 because they never followed up on that part, 11 never asked if there was anything they had 12 forgotten to ask." 13 Whose handwriting is that? 14 A Mine. 15 Q That's one of your edits? 16 A Yes. 17 Q "What I saw was this: on Deb 18 Gorham's desk was a memo with the heading 19 'travel office' and the names of Vince Foster 20 and Bill Kennedy on top. At the top 21 right-hand corner of the memo was a 22 handwritten note from Hillary Clinton that 890 1 said: We need these people out, We need our 2 people in, HRC." 3 Is this an accurate recitation of 4 what you told Mrs. Gallagher? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 Q Why is it that you didn't offer up 7 the information about the memo? 8 A Well, I wasn't asked and I think 9 it's wise, you know, I've read press reports 10 from my deposition testimony here, which 11 should not surprise me at this late date at 12 the way things are spun rather masterfully, 13 but I will tell you that it's not that I 14 didn't testify completely in that I was in 15 any way disingenuous. 16 It is that I had a White House 17 appointed attorney. I had an attorney who 18 was in literally daily contact with the White 19 House as to my testimony and I knew that my 20 livelihood depended upon being a team player. 21 So to the extent that I answered 22 honestly, I did. I did not volunteer 891 1 information that was not asked. Most 2 specifically, I did not volunteer information 3 that might endanger the President or the 4 First Lady in any way legally. 5 Q Turn to the next page, it has an 18 6 on the top. 7 "On Filegate: Craig Livingstone 8 claimed responsibility for 'mistakenly' 9 ordering up FBI files on hundreds of 10 Republicans. I went through Craig and Tony's 11 office often and I often saw what was called 12 the vault area, which they left open. But I 13 never saw anything that looked like hundreds 14 of FBI files. Maybe he kept them stashed in 15 his garage." 16 Is this Maggie Gallagher's 17 interpretation? 18 A No, well, actually this is quite 19 close to verbatim in terms of what I told 20 her. I told her that I had seen these files 21 which shared a commonalty to the hundreds 22 that I saw in Bill's office and in other 892 1 locations, but that my impression was that 2 the shear volume was housed in Mr. Kennedy's 3 office, so. 4 Q Turning to the remaining part of 5 this page going on to the next page, up to 6 "On who really hired Craig Livingstone." 7 Is this an accurate recitation of 8 what you told Ms. Gallagher? 9 MR. MAZUR: Object to the form of 10 the question. 11 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 12 Q The second paragraph, the third and 13 the fourth on this page numbered 18 at the 14 top and the first two lines on the top of 19? 15 A You know, it's not wrong, it's just 16 by omission not including certain things that 17 I had spoken to her about or she emphasized 18 certain things that I would not have, 19 necessarily. 20 For instance, in the Bill Kennedy's 21 own personnel file there, she refers to it as 22 a personnel file. I don't recall referring 893 1 to it as anything, other than a file. 2 We, in the support staff in the 3 West Wing, asked one another why he was the 4 only counsel office representative or staff 5 member whose file was maintained in Vince's 6 safe, which is not to imply in any way that 7 that was the only file with a name that was 8 in the safe. 9 The rest of it looks relatively 10 accurate based on my memory. 11 Q If we were to obtain 12 Ms. Gallagher's testimony under oath, do you 13 have any reason to believe she might not tell 14 the truth? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 16 relevance, speculation. 17 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 18 Q As to what you told her at the 19 time? 20 A You know, I don't know Maggie 21 Gallagher, I've spoken to her other than 22 during that time frame once since, so I would 894 1 have no way of knowing. 2 I would like to believe that 3 everyone would be inclined to tell the truth 4 under oath. 5 Q At the time that this information 6 was relayed to Ms. Gallagher, you did not 7 know of the President's relationship with 8 Monica Lewinsky, did you? 9 A No. 10 Q You had no intention of taping any 11 conversations of Monica Lewinsky at the time, 12 did you? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Because you didn't even know her 16 then, right? 17 A I did know her, actually, but 18 that's all I'll say. 19 Q You had no motive other than to 20 tell the truth to Ms. Gallagher when you gave 21 her this information? 22 A Did I have another motive? 895 1 Q Yes. 2 A There were those who would probably 3 say I did, but, no, actually I wanted the 4 truth put to paper at the time. 5 Q Have you suffered any job 6 retaliation as a result of your involvement 7 in the Lewinsky scandal? 8 A Well yesterday marked the one year 9 anniversary of my absence from my duty 10 station at the Pentagon, so to the extent 11 that I've been removed from the directorship 12 of the program I chaired and to the extent 13 that I've been denied access to my duty 14 station, I believe I have, yes. 15 Q Have you been interviewed by anyone 16 from the Inspector General of the Department 17 of Defense concerning the release of your 18 Pentagon file information by Ken Bacon and 19 Clifford Bernath and perhaps others? 20 MS. COPPOLINO: I'm going to object 21 to that question. I think that that's an 22 ongoing investigation. I think it's 896 1 inappropriate that she be asked to provide 2 information that she's provided to the 3 Inspector General's office. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to find 5 out whether she's been interviewed. I'm not 6 asking for the information. 7 THE WITNESS: Hey, it's early days 8 yet. It's only been almost a year. I'm sure 9 they'll get around to it one of these days. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Just answer the 11 question. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't 13 have any memory of them even contacting me. 14 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 15 Q Has anyone told you outside of the 16 Pentagon as to what the likely result of the 17 so-called investigation will be? 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Objection, 19 relevance. 20 MS. COPPOLINO: Objection, this 21 calls for speculation, relevance. 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: If I may just have 897 1 a second. 2 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Holley, can we 3 have a time check while they are conferring? 4 VIDEOGRAPHER: 11:59. 5 THE WITNESS: My counsel advises me 6 that we've been approached on more than one 7 occasion by representatives of the Inspector 8 General Office to request interviews and we 9 have declined. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q Who approached you? 12 A I've been advised by counsel that 13 someone has, I don't know. 14 MR. KLAYMAN: Can you say? 15 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Justice counsel, I 16 can't remember her name, to be honest with 17 you, as well as somebody from the IG's office 18 and we've advised them that Linda doesn't 19 have any personal knowledge as it relates to 20 the release of her Privacy Act information 21 and she has nothing to add and declined to be 22 interviewed. 898 1 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 2 Q During the time that you worked in 3 the White House, did you see any letters that 4 Kathleen Wiley had written to the President? 5 A Many. Is this relevant? 6 Q Yes, it's relevant. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer the 8 question. You did. 9 THE WITNESS: All right. 10 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 11 Q How did you come upon those 12 letters? 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Again, we are 14 going to object at this point because it's 15 beyond the scope. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: That's directly a 17 part of this case, Mr. Zaccagnini. 18 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Dispute it with 19 the Judge, Mr. Klayman. 20 MR. KLAYMAN: I dispute the fact 21 that it points in this deposition for some 22 reason unknown to me that you throw a monkey 899 1 wrench in the legitimate, relevant questions. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Take it up with 3 the Judge, Mr. Klayman. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I will take it up 5 with the Judge, and on this question I'm 6 going to move for sanctions, because this is 7 part of the case. 8 BY MR. KLAYMAN: 9 Q Are you aware of a request by a 10 White House employee for your divorce records 11 in Howard County, Maryland? 12 A I'm sorry, repeat, please. 13 Q Are you aware of a request by a 14 White House employees for divorce records in 15 Howard County, Maryland? 16 MR. GAFFNEY: Objection, form. 17 MR. GILLIGAN: Objection, facts not 18 in evidence, calls for speculation, no 19 relevance. 20 THE WITNESS: I was told that an 21 individual representing to be a member of the 22 White House communications office requested 900 1 not just my divorce decree, but also the 2 proceeding. 3 Am I missing something here? 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: We are out of 5 time. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: What's the time, 7 Mr. Holley? 8 MR. HOLLEY: 12:02. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: You're out of time. 10 MR. ZACCAGNINI: You can answer the 11 question and then that will conclude it. 12 THE WITNESS: Well I think I did, 13 that was it. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Okay. 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you, Ms. Tripp. 16 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: Why don't we go off 18 the record for a moment. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Zaccagnini, let 20 me just get this on the record. 21 Mr. Zaccagnini, in light of 22 Mr. Klayman's raising matters today that were 901 1 outside the scope of either his initial 2 direct or our cross-examination, testimony 3 has come out today that we have not had an 4 opportunity to cross Ms. Tripp on. 5 Mr. Gaffney and I are contemplating 6 a few brief questions to allow us an 7 opportunity to cross-examination. Are you 8 willing to stick around for that? 9 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I'd like to talk 10 to my client. I have recommended it, but I 11 would like to talk to my client. 12 MR. KLAYMAN: First of all, we 13 object to that because the Court has not 14 provided for that. We have not been outside 15 of the scope of any cross-examination, as you 16 would call it. 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Well, what I would 18 like to do is suggest. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to get 20 that kind of testimony, I suggest you move 21 the Court for it. But we object to it. 22 My schedule is limited right now. 902 1 I have another appointment. 2 MR. ZACCAGNINI: What I would like 3 to suggest, and I'm sorry Mr. Klayman has 4 another appointment, though, and I have 5 offered to counsel the opportunity to 6 question Ms. Trip regarding the book 7 proposal, because you obviously didn't have 8 it when you were given an opportunity of 9 cross-examining Ms. Tripp, and I've spoken to 10 my client about that, and she's agreeable to 11 that. 12 But, Mr. Klayman, are you 13 unavailable for a short period of questioning 14 on that? 15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I do have 16 another appointment. You can settle it up 17 again, and maybe in the interim, we can 18 resolve these other questions, too. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I object to that. I 20 have five minutes of questioning here at the 21 most, that it seems to me make sense 22 procedurally to take care of now, and that 903 1 it's ridiculous to reconvene this deposition 2 for a fifth time when we could wrap this up 3 right now. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: Then I'm going to 5 have to have redirect direct questions. 6 MR. GILLIGAN: Mr. Klayman. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I would submit, 8 Mr. Gilligan, it's quite clear that at least 9 in terms of the posture of counsel towards 10 plaintiffs, that she's not a friendly witness 11 to our clients in many respects, and I don't 12 understand why you're getting a second bite 13 of the apple. 14 MR. GILLIGAN: Because you exceeded 15 the scope of the direct and cross. 16 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Why don't we set 17 the personalities aside, gentlemen, and try 18 to act like mature adults? 19 Here's what I would suggest, I 20 would suggest, I'm suggesting this to 21 everybody, that you be given an opportunity 22 to question Ms. Tripp about the book 904 1 proposal, that you'd be given one-third of 2 that opportunity, again, time wise, for a 3 redirect direct. 4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm saying I have a 5 limited schedule. I have to give a speech 6 this afternoon, and if you want to reconvene 7 at a later time, that's fine. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: What time is your 9 speech, Mr. Klayman? 10 MR. KLAYMAN: It occurs at 1:50, 11 but I have many things to do before that, and 12 I'm going out of town, and I have another 13 appointment before then. 14 I was not advised of this. I 15 think, as a matter of courtesy, I should have 16 been advised that this was what you were 17 seeking to do. You had conversations with 18 Mr. Zaccagnini, but we didn't know anything 19 about it. 20 MR. ZACCAGNINI: The only person 21 who I offered to that, so you'll know and you 22 can't blame Mr. Gilligan, is Mr. Gaffney. 905 1 MR. GAFFNEY: One other thing, 2 Mr. Zaccagnini, I believe I provided you 3 yesterday with a subpoena duces tecum. 4 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Right. 5 MR. GAFFNEY: Calling for the 6 appearance -- 7 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me say this -- 8 MR. GAFFNEY: Please don't 9 interrupt me, Mr. Klayman. 10 I don't know if I have any 11 questions at all other than to get on the 12 record that it was received, and a search was 13 conducted, and that subpoena was served. 14 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct; it 15 was served on associate counsel, 16 Mr. Lardieri. That's fine. 17 MR. GAFFNEY: I may have a few 18 questions pursuant to that subpoena. 19 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's fine. 20 MR. GAFFNEY: You don't object to 21 doing that? 22 MR. ZACCAGNINI: No, I don't. 906 1 MR. GILLIGAN: I want to state for 2 the record the questions that I have and why 3 they pertain to matters that were outside the 4 scope. 5 Ms. Tripp testified today -- 6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, wait a second. 7 This is unauthorized by the Court, and what 8 I'm saying is -- 9 MR. GILLIGAN: You are unauthorized 10 by the Court in exceeding the scope of your 11 direct examination. I don't think the Court 12 ever contemplated that you would, today, be 13 allowed to go into brand new matters that we 14 have never had an opportunity to 15 cross-examine. 16 MR. KLAYMAN: Filegate is a brand 17 new matter? 18 MR. GILLIGAN: Ms. Fredrich and 19 Ms. McGowan are brand new matters, 20 Mr. Klayman. There's no reason you could not 21 have elicited testimony. 22 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Gilligan, I'll be 907 1 happy to argue with you in briefs over this, 2 but right now you are getting into areas that 3 the Court has not ordered. 4 Now we have a number of outstanding 5 questions that were not answered. It's our 6 position that some of those questions should 7 have been answered. It's out position that 8 some of those questions, there was no right 9 to instruct the witness not to answer. 10 Now, there are going to have to be 11 motions that have to be filed with regard to 12 Ms. Tripp. If you want to then move for this 13 additional time, that is fine, but I say 14 right now, this deposition is concluded in 15 terms of the Court's order. 16 Now Mr. Gaffney has a separate 17 subpoena. Perhaps Mr. Gaffney, on behalf of 18 the First Lady, wants to assert that he 19 should be allowed to take another deposition 20 of Ms. Tripp, your deposition. Let's brief 21 that, too, if that's your position. 22 But right now I have my schedule 908 1 set and you're asking questions that going to 2 require me to go back and that would be 3 unauthorized, as well. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I would have no 5 objection. 6 MR. KLAYMAN: I say leave it where 7 it is right now. I do object. 8 MR. GILLIGAN: Thank you for your 9 advice, and I'm going to make my speech on 10 the record now, Mr. Klayman, without 11 interruption by you. 12 Mr. Zaccagnini, I wish to ask a few 13 follow-up questions of Ms. Tripp regarding 14 alleged conversations with Ms. Tripp, that 15 Ms. Fredrich allegedly has denied under oath. 16 It will take an extremely brief period of 17 time. 18 It is my position that since this 19 is testimony that Mr. Klayman elicited beyond 20 the scope of the direct and 21 cross-examination, that we should be given an 22 opportunity to make a few brief inquiries in 909 1 that regard, rather than have a bunch of 2 pointless motions practice and reconvening 3 this deposition on yet a fifth occasion. 4 I ask you, sir, why do we not do 5 this now? 6 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Yes. 7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm saying it's 8 unauthorized by Court order. 9 MR. GILLIGAN: Your position has 10 been made clear, Mr. Klayman. 11 MR. KLAYMAN: Our view is is that 12 if you do that, you're violating the Court 13 order. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: I want to get in my 15 speech, which I assure you will be a little 16 shorter. I think I may be able to obviate, 17 Mr. Zaccagnini, any additional expense on 18 behalf of our respective clients. We 19 discussed briefly the subpoena I delivered to 20 Mr. Lardieri yesterday. 21 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 22 MR. GAFFNEY: I gather the 910 1 documents that were produced today were 2 responsive to the subpoena? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 4 As I advised you, Mr. Gaffney, neither 5 Ms. Tripp, myself, any of her counsel or 6 Mr. Cowder have a copy of the other document 7 which you were looking for which is the fund 8 raising letter. 9 With respect to the book proposals, 10 this is the only book proposal that I know to 11 be in existence, and obviously, we've stated 12 our objections with respect to turning over 13 the balance of the proposal. 14 MR. GAFFNEY: The objections you 15 stated in the amended responses you provided 16 today would apply equally to my subpoena? 17 MR. ZACCAGNINI: That's correct. 18 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you. 19 MR. KLAYMAN: What I'm proposing, 20 Mr. Gilligan, both in terms of courtesy 21 towards counsel, we've given you a number of 22 extensions of time, if you want to 911 1 tentatively reset the deposition to ask these 2 questions so we can go to the Court on this 3 issue, that's fine, but this is not 4 authorized by Court order. 5 MR. GILLIGAN: I understand your 6 position. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Mr. Gilligan, let 8 me advise you, and this may be of some 9 assistance while we are bantering, that the 10 conversations that Mrs. Trip had with 11 Ms. Fredrich deal strictly with the Lewinsky 12 matter and, therefore, would probably be out 13 of bounds anyway, but I'll certainly be 14 willing to go into further instructions with 15 you about that. Therefore, I would be 16 instructing her not to respond in all 17 likelihood to any substance of those 18 conversations. 19 MR. GILLIGAN: I take it, then, 20 that to be absolutely crystally clear about 21 it, then, if I were to pose questions trying 22 to ask Ms. Tripp to specify what these 912 1 conversations were, you would instruct her 2 not to answer those questions at this time? 3 MR. ZACCAGNINI: I would. 4 MR. GILLIGAN: I would be forced to 5 move to compel answers to those questions in 6 any event. 7 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Exactly. I would 8 advise that they deal with the Lewinsky 9 matter and that they are, therefore, beyond 10 the scope of Judge Lamberth's Order. 11 MR. GILLIGAN: Very well, then, 12 then we can leave it at that. 13 MR. ZACCAGNINI: Thank you. 14 (Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., the 15 deposition of LINDA R. TRIPP was 16 adjourned.) 17 * * * * * 18 19 20 21 22 ??