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Judicial Watch • Transcript 2017 JW Voter Fraud Crisis Panel

Transcript 2017 JW Voter Fraud Crisis Panel

Transcript 2017 JW Voter Fraud Crisis Panel

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JUDICIAL WATCH Special Panel Presentation:
The Voter Fraud Crisis
Introduction and Moderator:
Tom Fitton,
President, Judicial Watch
Cleta Mitchell,
Partner and Political Law Attorney Foley Lardner LLP
Robert Popper, Senior Attorney and Head Election Integrity Project Judicial Watch
Jesse Richman,
Political Science Geography Professor Old Dominion University
Hans von Spakovsky, Manager, Election Law Reform Initiative, and
Senior Legal Fellow for the Meese Center for Legal and Judicial
Studies the Heritage Foundation
12:00 1:00 PM, Thursday, February 16, 2017
Judicial Watch
425 Third Street SW, Suite 800
Washington, 20024
This rush transcript. This copy may not its final form and may updated.
Transcript by:
TOM FITTON: Good afternoon. Tom Fitton, president Judicial Watch, and
welcome our special educational panel the voter fraud crisis. are lucky here today joined some the most knowledgeable people the country election integrity and
voter fraud particular, and will get them few minutes. But, first, let introduce
you the topic generally.
Judicial Watch, course, non-partisan educational foundation that promotes
government accountability and integrity. And that through oftentimes litigation and
through educational panels like this, obviously. And been investigating the issue
election integrity for some time, with our Election Integrity Project, and certainly President
Trump comments about the possibility voter fraud the 2016 elections shared there
are some concerns even the left that, for Bernie Sanders supporters, has heightened the
attention election integrity American politics today.
And the president announced, was coming into office, that wanted the issue
voter fraud investigated. What that investigation entails, don know. But, from our
perspective, voter fraud investigation done the federal government would the most
significant civil rights investigation generation.
And why that? Because there voter fraud, whether dozen, few hundred,
few thousands or, President Trump seems allege, few million, those are votes that are
stolen from average Americans who are voting lawfully. Those are votes negated illegal
aliens aliens voting dead people voting other people voting who aren supposed
voting. And those are your core rights your right vote that are being negated result
voter fraud and unsecure elections. this would appropriate move for the federal government make, and
something, obviously, that Judicial Watch watching very carefully and our panelists here will
have something say on.
But there are other issues out there too, which are dirty election rolls. You could have
registered vote and you think very systematic and people are careful about how those rolls
are being managed. Well, that not the case. And been investigating that for years. The
law that the states take reasonable efforts make sure those rolls are clean that when you
die move away, your name removed. Well, that isn being done many states across the
And under the Obama administration, that law that those rolls maintained
reasonable way wasn enforced, and was Judicial Watch file the first private lawsuits American history against Republican-controlled states, Ohio and Indiana, try get them clean the rolls. And those lawsuits ended after they actually did what asked them do. there major crisis that regard because there are many states across the country,
major states like California, where our analysis shows percent the rolls aren clean,
and view when you have dirty voting rolls, you have dirty elections.
And, top that, you had the Obama Justice Department take this almost fanatical
approach suppressing election integrity measures challenging them court wherever they
showed up. Either they challenged them they worked with the ACLU and their leftist allies federal court challenge them, sometimes successfully, often unsuccessfully. You name North Carolina, Texas, and can imagine there are many other states that wanted
election integrity measures but were unable because the threat Justice Department
And the lawsuits are against voter measures, they against measures that would
restrict early voting, which kind free-for-all type mess when you think about it, and
other commonsense election integrity measures. And, result, this has been brewing the
federal courts for years now and stalled the implementation election integrity measures
places like North Carolina. don know whether the results North Carolina were impacted election fraud, but know the election results North Carolina were dirtier than they needed because they
didn have the rules place ensure that clean election was place. And that the crisis facing many respects.
And top that you have absolute hostility, which can understand, although have theory why the hostility there, asking people whether they citizens and ensuring
that they citizens before they register vote. The Obama Justice Department opposed that.
They sued Florida prevent questions like that from being asked any significant way, and,
from perspective, don understand why would against voter making sure that
only citizens are voting other than you want able steal elections when necessary. That
the conclusion draw. don see any other conclusion that can reasonably drawn. The left
pretends that concerned about racial discrimination and such, but there evidence that. people are concerned that there element the political community, mainly the
left, and had helped with the Justice Department try rig the election system such way allow stolen particular instances when necessary. think that the crisis facing. don know few dozen few million
illegal votes any one election, but certainly need figure that out one way another.
And anyone who opposed figuring out one way another, think should question what
their motivations are. they want the truth? They don want the truth? Then they know the
truth going harm them. that what think. going see what our expert panelists think who know
more about the topic than would ever hope to.
Joining first not the order they appear but first here introductions Cleta
Mitchell one Washington most influential lawyers, with Foley Lardner; recognized
such both Washingtonian magazine and the National Journal. She testified Congress numerous issues related election law, campaign finance and lobbying and ethics law.
mean, she one the top lawyers the country this issue. And, obviously, she makes
living doing it, but know lot you are citizen activists who volunteer work. Well, she
great volunteer too. And lot the work she does educate the American people and
lawmakers unpaid. And part her citizen activism. really grateful for that.
And she one the top said, one the top legal experts the country this issue lucky have her.
Also joining another great friend Judicial Watch Hans von Spakovsky, who
manager the Heritage Foundation Election Law Reform Initiative. Now, Hans used work the Justice Department during the Bush administration. And even the Justice Department
during the Bush administration wasn good should be, sure Hans will tell you.
And was counsel the assistant attorney general for civil rights, and, obviously, had
much expertise enforcing the Voting Rights Act, and the Help America Vote Act and other
important law you may not know about but which essential potentially cleaning our
elections. And co-author with John Fund the book Who Counting: How Fraudsters
and Bureaucrats Put Your Vote Risk. And, again, Hans one these other experts who
does yeoman work educating lawmakers and elected officials about the importance
election integrity.
And can tell you, just the group here, compared what the left has election
integrity, this relatively speaking. only exaggerating slightly. But they have hundreds not thousands lawyers who spend all their time thinking ways undermine election
integrity and make our jobs harder, those who want voter and election integrity
measures. And got rely the super-human efforts folks like Hans and Cleta get
this work done.
Also joining man whose study has been the news lot recently. even
cited, believe, the White House defense its concerns about voter fraud, Dr. Jesse
Richman, who associate professor political science and international studies Old
Dominion University Norfolk, Virginia. And Dr. Richman another expert American
politics, authoring numerous articles American Political Science Review, Legislative
Studies Quarterly, knows where terms election issues and American political
life. And one his studies that co-authored entitled Non-Citizens Vote U.S.
Elections? And that 2014 study which still reverberating here the United States and has
been attacked for asking that even asking that question, don want steal his thunder describing what that study but you going want listen.
And last but not least colleague, Bob Popper, who director Judicial Watch
Election Integrity Project. And prior joining Judicial Watch, Bob also worked the Justice
Department under both President Bush and President Obama. And Bob was deputy chief the
voting section and the civil rights division the Justice Department. And while there, led
investigations relations related litigations the Voting Rights Act, the National Voter
Registration Act, and the Help America Vote Act. Not only that, but you were involved the
attempted prosecution the Black Panthers. maybe ask you little bit about that
move forward. And, obviously, been litigating for Judicial Watch North Carolina and
elsewhere across the country, again, trying promote the rule law our elections.
So, you know, important issue. don have clean elections, all these debates
about policy are really for naught, aren they? starting off Hans, who joining here.
Hans, turn over you.
HANS VON SPAKOVSKY: Tom, thank you very much. And thanks for actually
staging this panel, very important issue think most your listeners and watchers understand.
Look, the United States has long history voter fraud that has been documented
journalists and historians, and could make the difference close election. Those aren
words. Those are the words the United States Supreme Court 2008 case which they
upheld Indiana photo law, which was great law, commonsense requirement that
Americans all think good idea and that other states have been trying implement despite
great opposition it.
Now, one the things you hear all the time that, oh, there voter fraud the
United States. heard that from President Obama. You hear that the editorial pages
the New York Times and Washington Post. Well, about year and half ago, the
Heritage Foundation, where work, got tired hearing that. started database. And are not going backwards. not doing
exhaustive search and research past voter fraud cases the United States. just started
putting into this database cases run across them. Now, this database doesn contain
stories allegations, people saying, well, think saw something polling place and
think was wrong, perhaps fraud occurred. All putting into our database are cases where
individuals have been convicted court law committing election fraud and cases where
judge ordered new election because irregularities and potential fraud the underlying case.
Without any serious effort our part, are now 462 cases from across the
country, 742 criminal convictions. And that doesn include the most recent cases going
put in. Just three days ago, three days ago, was sitting desk, and saw that the Seventh
Circuit, the United States Court Appeals, this court that just one step below the U.S.
Supreme Court, released five-page opinion about woman, Peruvian citizen, who was the
United States, and when she went get her drivers license Illinois, she decided register
vote and voted the next federal election.
Now, what interesting about this that she actually lied her voter registration form.
She checked the box saying, yes, United States citizen. She could have continued vote often she wanted Illinois. She would never have been caught because Illinois does
absolutely nothing verify the citizenship people. The only reason she was caught was
because she actually applied for citizenship. And was during the citizenship application that
was discovered that she had registered and voted election. This the same day, the
way, that another report came out Texas, similar incident. woman down there, not U.S.
citizen, who voted illegally the 2012 2014 election. point here that this just the tip the iceberg. have honor system the
United States when comes voter registration and voting. States almost nothing verify
the accuracy the information they get when you register vote. They don check make
sure you real person. They don check your ID. They don check see you U.S.
citizen. They simply take the information they get voter registration forms, put into the
system and you are promptly registered vote.
Now, know there are problems and issues all over the country. Some states are worse
than others. Tom, you mentioned California. California probably has one the worst and most
unreliable voter registration systems the country. going get lot worse because they
have now gone what they call automatic voter registration, which everyone who getting
drivers license the state automatically registered. Last year, they issued upwards more
than half million drivers licenses illegal aliens. And how they are sorting through make
sure those individuals are not getting registered, California hasn really let know how they
going that. point here that there plenty evidence fraud all over the country. The
database that have put doesn include many other instances known fraud that have
seen occur because they not getting prosecuted. And give just one more example, then turn back you.
And that is, look, several years ago, was county election board Virginia. And discovered almost 300 individuals our county who were not U.S. citizens and who were
registered vote. About half them had voted prior elections. took them off the rolls,
which what could election officials. And turned that information over the
county district attorney and the U.S. Justice Department under Eric Holder. They did
absolutely nothing about it. There are potential almost 300 cases voter fraud that could have
been investigated and prosecuted, that would have almost doubled our database. But the cases
were ignored and nothing was done about it.
And that one the problems with voter fraud around the country often local DAs
ignore and the Justice Department, for many years, has also not been interested prosecuting
these types cases.
MR. FITTON: Thank you, Hans. Before you end, want ask you quick question.
Was easy prosecute voter fraud during the Bush administration? You know, viewers may
misinformed that they think, well, there different administration, all will sweetness and
light. you think that will the case?
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: Look, there certainly was added emphasis the cases,
but what you have keep mind that the Election Crimes Unit within the Justice
Department, inside the criminal division had total two people, two lawyers cover cases all
across the country. Compare that the voting section the Justice Department which enforces
the Federal Voting Rights Act. And the time was there, they had over staffers working
that. That the difference resources between the two.
Also, quite frankly, most the U.S. attorneys offices across the country really didn
understand they weren interested it, they didn think this was something they wanted
look when they had other cases. And many them actually didn know how about
finding the kind fraud that occurring. And there really wasn much activity the U.S.
attorney offices either.
MR. FITTON: Well, thank you. And way certainly provide some direction what should expecting from new Trump administration.
Dr. Richman, turn over you. Feel free talk about your study and its implications
for past elections and your interesting analysis how might apply the current election.
JESSE RICHMAN: Yes. the paper published 2014 was looking the 2008 and
2010 election some degree. don have data from 2016 anything say about the
implications the study 2016 very speculative, and don want say too much about
2016 because really don know yet.
Hans talked about how there through convictions, can get some evidence the
prevalence with fraud, but, rightly noted, many instances fraud don get prosecuted,
either because prosecutors aren even aware that they exist because they choose not
prosecute. And, you know, there prosecutorial discretion and limited resources, well
simply the fact that, somebody who non-citizen decides register and vote, many cases,
that very difficult detect because don have very good databases match with and
been very difficult that matching. the approach that colleagues and took was look survey data. this has its
own set challenges and problems but coming from another direction, which let
ask people who say they non-citizens about their electoral participation.
And analyzed data from the Cooperative Congressional Election Study Survey, and
the survey included question about citizenship status. Now, possible that some the
people who said they were non-citizens were actually citizens. This one the arguments
critics have made. talk little bit about some evidence from people who twice, two
different years said they were non-citizens, and, you know, there still evidence registration
and forth that context. what found, depending how you slice the data, you get different numbers. The
people can most confident about actually being registered and voting are the people who
both said they were registered and had validated registration status when the voter file firm
Catalist matched respondents the survey with voter rules. Now, this matching was imperfect.
Many people weren matched and that reflects variety factors. They were matching not just
the voter rolls but various other commercial databases. Matching hard.
But the low end 2008, looked like about 3.3 percent the people who said they
were non-citizens and said they were registered vote. Now, you can even more confident
about it. 2012, there were some people who were re-interviewed after being interviewed
2010 well. these are people who said they were non-citizens 2010, again said they were
non-citizens 2012. those, 2.4 percent both said they were registered vote and had
validated voter registration. this suggests rate non-citizen registration that potentially you take that out
across the millions non-citizens there are the country, that lot people. the high
end, you people who have some indication having registered either they said they were
registered they had validated voter registration status, you get estimate the high end
about percent 2008, and then, 2012, the people who twice said they were non-citizens,
about 17.6 percent had some indication registration status.
And there are various other surveys which suggest similar things. There been some
Hans has written some things about it. Other people have noted there was article the
Washington Times recently about the National Hispanic Survey 2013 which found that
about percent respondents who said they were non-citizens also said they were registered
voters. seems like survey evidence provides evidence non-citizen registration.
There also evidence voting. Some the people who said they were registered said
they voted, cast validated votes. 2008, that was about 1.5 percent who said they were
registered said they voted cast validated vote. you look all people for whom there was
some indication some involvement, talking about higher number. talking about percent the high and with some indication many those people don know.
Somebody says they voted, but don have validated vote somebody has validated vote
but they didn say they voted. don know. Were they lying? Did they make mistake? look the people who twice said they were non-citizens 2012, still have
person who cast validated vote. still have people who said that they voted. there
quite bit evidence that there level non-citizen participation from survey data.
There are also various other kinds databases and matches that people have done try get some sense the magnitude non-citizen voting. And this very uncertain. Now,
surveys are always uncertain. You know about polling. Polling the estimates vary sample
sample. There are always you never know for sure when you looking survey data but
gives some indication the general rate.
There also have been North Carolina did some matching couple years back looking the DACA lists. these are DREAM Act people, people who arrived the U.S. children.
They not citizens. They had path citizenship can pretty confident that they
didn naturalize something like that and there wasn error the database that way.
About percent, 0.97 percent the DACA individuals North Carolina were also
registered voters. And, Virginia, Hans mentioned one study that came out last year looking
several countries. And between varied county county, but between 4.8 percent and 0.03
percent the total non-citizen adult population the various counties that were studied had
been removed from the rolls based upon not being citizens. Sedgwick County, Kansas, they started 2016 keeping track people who registered vote naturalization ceremonies. These are people who had just become citizens. And
keeping track whether those people were already registered vote, previously Kansas
non-citizens. And they found that about percent the people who were showing register vote, so, presumably, there were others who were registered and knew and didn re-register
had previously registered. there are variety indications suggesting that some non-citizens take part the
U.S. electoral system ways that they not supposed to. Across the U.S., you not
citizen, you not supposed register vote but some people, nonetheless do.
But there lot uncertainty here terms the numbers and what that means
part, think need keep investigating this terms trying get more clarity the
more different kinds data can bring bear, and, hopefully, the current administration,
the investigation that being launched will include careful and transparent and thorough
evaluation wide range different kinds data order help refine the kinds estimates
that have because any one measurement may biased one way another but the more
measurements there are, the more looks like can you know, can start triangulating
across them and getting sense the overall magnitude.
And, course, think need keep mind two things. One shouldn let
ourselves get frightened high-end ranges the uncertainty. there been speculation
three five million illegal votes. That goes well beyond what any the estimates just talked
about give you. that probably really the very high end. Maybe that will turn out
true but think very unlikely.
Nonetheless, even very low rate non-citizen participation elections can have
substantive consequences. Our elections are mostly won the candidate with the most votes. very, very close race, doesn take much illegal voting all change election
outcomes. those notes, wrap up.
MR. FITTON: Jesse, could you translate the percentages the ranges poll numbers aliens? And clear, these are both aliens lawfully and unlawfully present here the
United States who may voting based the data you analyzed.
MR. RICHMAN: That right. how many non-citizen adults are there the U.S.? about million. And so, you know, what does that mean? That means that for every
percent who are registering, talking about hundreds thousands people. And even
very low rate does translate into potentially very significant number individuals and
potentially quite significant number votes.
Now, non-citizens are distributed unevenly sometimes the places with the highest
concentrations non-citizens are places where Democrats are probably going win with
without those votes. But there are elections where very close and where there are enough
non-citizens that even very low rate non-citizen participation could swing the outcome. paper, know, for example, the race where Franken versus Coleman
Minnesota decided few hundred votes more less. There was very contentious recount well. And, you know, would take about half percent Minnesota non-citizens casting
ballots based the ratios who were supporting nationwide supporting Democrats versus
Republicans tip that race.
MR. FITTON: But was there partisan bias among those citizens, non-citizens
registered vote?
MR. RICHMAN: Yeah. the survey includes questions about candidate preference.
And you can get sense both the preferences non-citizens who voted and the preferences all non-citizens. 2012, looked support for Obama. And among all non-citizens, about percent
supported Obama. Among non-citizens who cast validated votes, was about percent who
said that they supported Obama. there are few who are supporting other candidates
didn express preference, but, overwhelmingly, support for Democrats, President Obama.
MR. FITTON: the mirror the Trump argument that did get few illegal alien
votes too.
MR. RICHMAN: might have gotten few.
MR. FITTON: But not enough overcome the other numbers.
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: But just quick another example this. Look, just from
some just from experience and one other study that was done, know that around 1,400
non-citizens were registered vote just nine counties Virginia and considerable number those voted. the last little more the last decade, two state attorney general races the
state Virginia, statewide, were decided less than 1,000 votes. very clear that
those two elections alone, non-citizen voting might have made the difference.
MR. FITTON: The Senate race New Hampshire was less than 1,000 votes just past
year. Thank you, Dr. Richman. Cleta Mitchell.
CLETA MITCHELL: Well, Tom, thank you much and thanks Judicial Watch for
organizing this think very important program. think important for people understand one fact. There systematic well-funded
effort left wing liberal, progressive, whatever you want call them, and now the Democratic
Party openly essentially dismantle the election administration system our country that has
grown over the past century create safeguards against voter fraud, maintain the integrity our elections, protect the sanctity the ballot, the secret ballot, and keep legal votes
from being diluted illegal votes.
And there this concerted, well-funded effort that has been underway for more than
years abolish all those safeguards and fight any new safeguards that may needed
determine that there are problems within the voting system.
And let just give you some examples how that manifests itself. Let start with the
voter rolls. There federal law that requires jurisdictions, voting jurisdictions and states,
clean the voter rolls every often, make sure that there are non-citizens the rolls,
because federal crime for non-citizen register vote, and federal crime,
second federal crime, for non-citizen cast vote federal election the United States.
The states have various degrees requirements about who eligible vote. Some
states say that you are convicted felon, that you can never have your voting rights restored.
Most states have changed that, but, certainly, there generally understood and accepted
statutory requirement that incarcerated prisoners are not eligible vote. They have forfeited
their citizenship rights engage certain things because criminal misconduct.
And California, for instance, has constitutional prohibition against incarcerated
prisoners from voting. the Democratic legislature California redefined statute what
incarceration meant that prisoners incarcerated California penal institutions were eligible
vote November 2016. How many incarcerated prisoners cast ballots November 2016?
MR. FITTON: And that not going picked study the Old Dominion
MS. MITCHELL: not going picked anybody unless the because there political bias now that brought about this leftist, liberal, progressive, Democratic effort dismantle election integrity systems. When the voter rolls are not clean and Hans and
work with public interest legal foundation, the Public Interest Legal Foundation the name
it, and has brought nine lawsuits multiple states over the last two years force the cleanup voter rolls. some jurisdictions, there are 120 percent the voter rolls are 120 percent the
voting age population, which means that there are more people the voter rolls than there are
eligible adults cast ballots that jurisdiction. Now, how does that manifest itself?
Well, see the left moving more and more wanting all mail ballots, mailing, M-AI-L, not M-A-L-E, mail-in ballot they want away with polling places altogether they
can. They want able take those voter rolls and have the jurisdictions mail ballot
everybody the rolls. what happens you have dead people the rolls? What happens
when you have non-citizens the rolls? They get ballots. Those ballots are returned and
counted. And manifests itself illegal votes, and don even know the extent it. been fighting enforce the federal law clean the voter rolls.
Let give you another example about potential for fraud mail-in ballots. There
only really one way, and this true with absentee ballots and other mail-in ballots. There
really not good way you don first all, you have have pristine voter rolls, which
know don Then they get these ballots.
Well, the only real way determine, have any kind safeguard have some sort
transparency. And most states use the signature that you have way sign your envelope
the carrier for that mailed-in ballot, and there needs way for citizens and competing
parties able compare those signatures see that signature the ballot matches the
signature that the voter rolls, the voter registration card information. Pennsylvania, there are counties that provide monitors the county election board
that working for candidate, can and see those absentee ballots come and can
compare signatures. And, fact, 2010, one county, workers went and began raise
questions. Now, these were ballots that had been approved but the citizens, volunteer citizens,
just you pointed out, went and started comparing signatures and said, there problem.
These look like they all the same signature.
And, fact, those ballots, all the absentee ballots were then sequestered that county
and were not counted. And the district attorney ordered investigation. And turned out that
the campaign manager for incumbent Democratic congressman had set absentee ballot
harvesting scheme, which violation Pennsylvania law.
After the election, because ended not being close, the whole thing went away. That
should have been added Hans database but because they didn pursue the investigation, the
district attorney dropped it. And none the absentee ballots were cast.
And just close with one other thing that think really important, compare that
Clark County, Nevada, where there huge number spent good bit time Clark
County 2010, same year, all the absentee and mail-in ballots that were submitted that
jurisdiction, Clark County, which Las Vegas, the largest county, those were all processed
election workers who were yards away from any citizen behind glass there was way for
the citizens able there was transparency, way for the citizens able look
those signatures. And the workers are just processing them and without really looking them.
And there was nothing can do. there are lots examples the reason these systems exist, and know that the
systems need enhanced, not eliminated. And don think that have any way know
the extent vote fraud until are able institute some audits balloting, audits systems determine whether not every step the process are ensuring and guarding
against illegal voting.
MR. FITTON: You know, lawyer but understanding civil rights law
other civil rights, you have those sort systems place without any checks place, the
presumption would that someone rights are being violated, meaning the right honest
votes, have your vote counted and not negated illegal votes.
MS. MITCHELL: That right. That exactly right.
MR. FITTON: And you can presume, states like Nevada or, frankly, Oregon,
Colorado, where they have now you know, all these states where these massive mail-in ballot
programs are being instituted, your right vote isn being protected. And serious crisis.
And whether they catch them all irrelevant. got get the processes place people
are assured that their votes are counted just much are able catch the bad guys. Thank
you, Cleta.
Bob Popper, you worked the Justice Department during the Obama administration.
Now you work Judicial Watch, which does more than Justice Department does, you
ROBERT POPPER: The people Justice Department.
MR. FITTON: The people Justice Department. But you could see there lot
done. Talk about what you been focusing and your insights based your experience and
the battles now.
MR. POPPER: Sure. Well, mean, you know, Cleta, what you said, mean,
resonates with me. The extent which you know, don know the extent variety
voter fraud activities. Non-citizens voting, voter impersonation, same-day registration,
registration fraud, you know, the extent which duplicate registrations voter don
know these things.
And what you pointed out, and true experience that the Obama
administration made this political football. mean, the same time that the president was
giving speeches saying there evidence voter fraud, the administration was refusing
share federal databases that might have allowed some light shed the extent the
The state Florida ultimately had sue the administration gain access database
containing the systematic alien verification for entitlements database, the SAVE database, gain
access this. And then, when did gain access, the Obama administration put many
restrictions the use that database that was practically difficult get any useful results
from it.
MR. FITTON: Now, that database, clear, its aliens the federal system who are
receiving welfare benefits more less, and there list them.
MR. POPPER: about entitlement benefits not specifically focused your
citizenship status but sheds light that. And then, you know, the second point that
worked the voting section and the NVRA the federal law that mandates list maintenance,
and that that states have clean their voter rolls, and those are the lawsuits you mentioned.
And, Tom, the lawsuits you mentioned Ohio and Indiana from Judicial Watch.
And was the voting section when were told new management the Obama
administration that they didn care, and those were their words, management words, don
care about that statute. And, fact, wasn enforced.
The last NVRA lawsuit, suing states make them have clean voter rolls was brought
2007. know because brought it. years, there been comparable lawsuit. And so,
yes, become political football. shame because there much suggestive evidence
and the answers could obtained. terms suggestive evidence, course, there the Pew Foundation study saying there
are almost three million duplicate registrations the country, almost one eight inaccurate.
There are about 1.8 million deceased registrants the voter rolls. know that Judicial Watch
examined surveys that states submitted the Election Assistance Commission.
And 2015, our research, found that there were 226 counties among these
states you know, that not even all the states 226 counties had more registered voters than
voting-age population. And some those, Cleta, some those counties had more registered
voters than total population, few them.
MR. FITTON: miracle. something. Yeah. (Laughter.)
MR. POPPER: You know, also know that there was the Crosscheck verification
program, there were lot states the time that speaking about, 2013, states were
members that system. They would check voter registration lists with each other and see
they had duplicates. And didn include the biggest states. didn include New York
Texas California.
Even so, the state Virginia identified 57,000 duplicate registration. Seventeen
thousand those involved people who were registered three more states. They referred
people for prosecution that time, that one electoral cycle. Imagine you take that and have complete list all states, would you multiply that number two three, and would you
multiply states get idea how big that kind fraud is? And, bear mind, the
ones who were referred for prosecution had registered Virginia and then registered somewhere
else and then voted Virginia. That was the sequence.
You know, need more evidence. need establish what the extent the problem
is. know that many states have responded public records requests, saying that they don
track voter fraud all. understandable some cases why they don such low
offense terms penalty. easy get out from under lot cases simply saying,
didn know wasn allowed vote. And think that some the felons who voted the
Franken/Coleman election used that particular maneuver avoid prosecution, didn know
wasn allowed it. There very high specific intent requirement. prosecution. know that, you know, convictions are fraction investigations they fraction committed crimes, they fraction, you know, each stage fraction all crimes. You
know, known crimes are fraction all crimes that fact have been committed, and that
especially true with voter fraud, very hard prove lot cases. Impersonation fraud
you sometimes left with nothing but signature. You know, non-citizen who votes, you
know, what you have enable you track down that felon that criminal? also have all sorts suggestive evidence from states. There the Pew study that you
all did; 1,000 plus people were removed from the rolls for being non-citizens Virginia. Hans,
you mentioned your 300. There are what, 400 plus Colorado who were non-citizens who selfconfirmed that they were registered vote. NBC News found about 100 Florida 2012, you
know, 100 here, 1,000 there, you know, and then, course, there Professor Richman study
suggesting the full extent the problem.
And also, know that officials from the USCIS and from ICE report that they arrest
and detain people for deportation who have voter registration cards, who have voted. You know,
and Judicial Watch are contacted these people and told these stories and couple
them have made the papers. know there problem. want know how big is. The least that our public
officials could stop fighting find out what the extent the problem is.
MR. FITTON: Well, and obviously that key don want cut you off.
assuming that was
MR. POPPER: That was final word.
MR. FITTON: and that key here. You know, just terms aliens, have
million plus aliens age who would eligible vote. And the left would have you believe
more than few dozen vote illegally. President Trump says three five million. Obviously,
somewhere between and strikes that number, and kind getting get
feel for this this number that not like unsolvable equation. There enough
information out there that the federal government wanted use the powers entrusted them the American people for good, they could figure this out probably within weeks they were
doing the right way.
MS. MITCHELL: And, you point out, and, hopefully, these things talking
about, not just illegal non-citizen voting. There are states that allow same-day voter
registration and voting. Well, know that people register multiple states. What sort
after-election audits are done determine whether the people who have registered that date
and voted that election, same day, that they didn also vote another state that same
election? There zero, zero auditing those votes where you have same-day registration.
There cross-checking determine. And those may citizens. They students
MR. FITTON: College students, college grounds. That big issue.
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: And know this happening because little known case,
group individuals were prosecuted and convicted Ohio after the 2008 election because
the time, Ohio had what they called same-day registration. You could register and immediately
And election officials didn discover this. think college student was like doing
video news report and they discovered that about dozen individuals who had registered vote
were all living this one little house Ohio. And who were they? Well, turned out they
were election volunteers who had come for the Obama campaign from other states. They
weren living Ohio. They were just there work the election. fact, they were
registered other states. And what did they do? They registered and voted Ohio because
was key battleground state and they wanted their vote count. And they were prosecuted.
And that just one instance that.
MR. FITTON: And just the left would have you believe Democrat versus
Republican. lot these key voter fraud susceptible jurisdictions, Democrat versus
Democrat. You have Democrats who want challenge incumbent Democrats who face the sort hurdles getting their votes counted the incumbent machine that has these voter fraud
protections place.
And think need address this more directly because, channel President Obama
and the left who, let presume they saying this good faith, they said, look, what going
here, you all wet. Your real agenda here back the era Jim Crow. This all
get Republicans elected. This suppress the minority vote. These rules you all want put
place, all good for white people because they can get access voter but minority people
can get access voter and all does suppresses minority turnout. not clean
elections. You just want elections that are free minority voting.
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: Yeah. And know that not true. Look, when John Fund
and wrote our book voter fraud cases, many the cases that illustrate, and can name
specific ones, the votes that were being stolen were the votes poor individuals particularly
urban areas and rural areas, often African-American.
And the reason for that was expressed very directly Democratic campaign consultant
who was convicted voter Troy, New York. And there, they were targeting these poor
neighborhoods. And was asked, well, why were they doing there? And his answer was,
well, because those are the individuals who are least likely notice and least likely complain
that their vote has been stolen. And that those are the individuals that targeting. And
there are many cases like that, which why the polling shows actually African-Americans
believe voter fraud bigger issue than lot white Americans do.
MR. POPPER: The majority support voter ID.
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: That right.
MS. MITCHELL: overwhelming majority.
MR. FITTON: Talk about our analysis North Carolina voting patterns after all
these terrible election integrity laws were implemented.
MR. POPPER: was consistent with the same thing that been found Georgia and
was Tennessee?
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: Yeah. And Indiana also.
MR. POPPER: Indiana. You know, found the primary that after the
implementation of, you know, some the reforms that had been challenged that case, there
was elimination out-of-precinct voting which, the way mean, don have time
probably get into but terrible idea, elimination same-day registration, limitation
early voting, and the beginning roll-out voter laws that minority registration
increased, registration increased, turnout increased, every metric that you use judge whether
people are signing vote and voting increased for minority voters.
Judicial Watch submitted the court. The court said, well, primary. can
really consider it. Okay. Come the general election. Every metric voter turnout from
minority voters, African-American and Hispanic voters increased again. You know, and this
story see everywhere. this voter ID, which overwhelmingly supported the minority
community trick diminish minority registration and turnout, failing miserably.
MR. FITTON: the evil Republicans who are being tricked.
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: Yeah. important point out because what Judicial
Watch did the North Carolina case was just great. But important note that all the
experts that were brought the Holder Justice Department and the plaintiffs who sued, they
all said, oh, gosh, these reforms are going cause the turnout African-Americans
down. going suppressed. Their experts wished DOJ ought ask for refund
because they were all wrong.
MR. POPPER: They didn say would go. They said would crash. They said
would absolute crater.
MR. FITTON: And the one expert paid for our tax dollars said that minorities weren
smart enough figure out these rules. That the attitude they had.
Dr. Richman, want get your point view here this because, obviously, the
president was looking your study the other day few weeks ago. thinking, well,
want investigation here. There obviously going don know what going
happen. there going commission, there going investigation through DHS
and the Department Justice, civil rights, but suggest experts and citizens out there, what
should they looking for? What should they looking at? Should they just data analysis?
Should prosecution oriented effort? What would you suggest they start doing terms
where look and how proceed?
MR. RICHMAN: Well, so, there are lot different avenues one could pursue, and
there are various efforts that are getting rolling the private sector well this government
investigation. True Vote, for example, working doing some interesting kinds data
merging try get handle these. think you have from multiple directions. were talking before the panel
about the kinds data that the government collects people naturalize. One the questions
asked have you registered vote? And would very interesting get sense what that
data looks like. data that the government been collecting for many years.
There are various federal government databases which can merge and that would get partial story, but there are two problems. One databases always have some errors, so, you
know, you need follow-up try ascertain whether any findings are the result errors
But, second, the databases don have everybody them. So, for example,
thinking about the non-citizen population, about half that legal adult, non-citizen
population. About half illegal. For the illegal half that, lot people that group aren the SAVE database. you merge, you not going find them. think you need try triangulate across different data sets part the study and
then use other kinds resources well terms trying get handle this. think important get sense magnitudes because, you know, there magic
bullet terms trying fix these problems either, think. There are various things you can improve but one never going able push the level fraud down zero suspect. matter finding potential actions one can take that, without seriously affecting the
capacity eligible voters participate, have effect diminishing the opportunities for
people various kinds commit fraud.
MR. FITTON: Either any three you have any points what should happening
within the Trump administration that regard?
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: There whole series actions that could taken that
would help. One, figure out what the problem and actually start, the Justice Department,
the prosecutions. And give you two quick examples. Bob mentioned the Pew Trust study
which said that think 2.8 billion individuals are registered multiple states.
MR. FITTON: Million.
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: Okay. They did the first half the study. They didn
the required second half the study which
MS. MITCHELL: Some have even voted.
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: How many them voted both states? know
happening. Famous incident, Wendy Rosen, former Democratic congressional candidate
Maryland couple years ago had withdraw from the race when was discovered that she
had voted Maryland and Florida the same time several elections. know
MR. FITTON: And the reaction from the media the time was, isn that funny?
MS. MITCHELL: Yes. That true.
MR. VON SPAKOVSKY: But all that data needs looked at, and need look
the voter histories. Another great source data would states and federal courts,
individuals who decline jury duty because they not U.S. citizens, most those jury lists are
taken from the voter registration rolls. Nothing being done with that information. That
information needs found, totaled up. Those people need removed from the voter rolls
and investigated the Justice Department for possible prosecution.
MR. FITTON: have about minute for you, Cleta.
MS. MITCHELL: Well, the federal statute requires jurisdictions clean their rolls. And
the federal government should the Justice Department should enforce that. And they should
run the national change address, jurisdictions need get into the habit running the national
change address, NCOA, annually, least annually. They should get the Social Security data deaths, and they should make systematic clean-up and then prosecuting.
And also, this one thing, the Justice Department was meeting 2008 which the
Justice Department said official said going start doing something which sure they
stopped immediately because the left wing groups the room just went berserk, saying
find instance voter fraud, only going investigate single incidence.
not going look for pattern, but they said going change that and going start
looking for patterns and see part scheme. And the left wing groups the room
said, that outrageous. You can that. these are all things where need decide country care about the election
administration system that grew out the progressive movement the early part the 20th
century. Instead dismantling it, need enhance it.
MR. FITTON: doesn mean federal takeover.
MS. MITCHELL: No, not federal takeover.
MR. FITTON: Bob, you have the last seconds.
MR. POPPER: Just make easy use, the SAVE database and the green card database.
Make easier run these things against state voter registration lists. Stop the fighting. Stop the
restrictions. Stop making people sue order get this basic information.
MS. MITCHELL: And stop denying the existence vote fraud. There massive vote
fraud denier industry that need put rest.
MR. FITTON: Well, what love about this, and you should all know, that matter
what the Trump administration does doesn because they will never enough,
guarantee you going doing something. Hans, Cleta, Bob Popper, Jesse Richman,
through his academic work, expose and the cases our respective groups perhaps sue
behalf the rule law because this area the law, those you watching, that allows for
citizen activism ways that you normally don have. You can figure out what your local
jurisdiction doing when comes cleaning election rolls. available the law
available you there too. our website find out more, Election Integrity, Heritage
Foundation, Public Interest Legal Group, course, our friends, Dr. Richman mentioned, True Vote does great work that regard. out there for you and you should take your own
action informed your careful understanding the law figure out what your local officials
are doing make sure that your elections are clean and fair. the voter fraud crisis real,
you can see, and top here Judicial Watch with colleagues. behalf Bob Popper, Jesse Richman, Cleta Mitchell, and Hans Von Spakovsky,
thank you for joining this afternoon.