1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
2
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3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER :
et al., :
4 :
Plaintiffs :
5 :
v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL)
6 :
FEDERAL BUREAU OF :
7 INVESTIGATION et al., :
:
8 Defendants. :
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9
10 Washington, D.C.
11 Friday, March 15, 1998
12 Deposition of
13 KENNETH BACON
14 a witness, called for examination by counsel
15 for Defendants, pursuant to notice and
16 agreement of counsel, beginning at
17 approximately 10:09 a.m. at the Offices of
18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street,
19 S.W., Washington, D.C., before Evadney M.
20 Rogers, notary public in and for the District
21 of Columbia, when were present on behalf on
22 the respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
Judicial Watch, Inc.
4 501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725
Washington, D.C. 20024
5 (202) 646-5172
6
On behalf of Department of Defense:
7
ANNE L. WEISMANN, ESQUIRE
8 BENJAMIN M. LAWSKY, ESQUIRE
U.S. Department of Justice
9 Civil Division
901 E Street, N.W.
10 Washington, D.C. 20530
(202) 514-3395
11
12 On behalf of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation (FBI) and Executive
13 Office of the President (EOP):
14 ELIZABETH SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
U.S. Department of Justice
15 901 E Street, N.W., 9th Floor
Washington, D.C. 20004
16 (202) 514-5302
17 On behalf of the Witness:
18 WILLIAM J. MURPHY, ESQUIRE
Murphy & Shaffer
19 100 Light Street
Baltimore, MD 21202-1019
20 (410) 783-7000
21
22
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1 APPEARANCES (CONT"D):
2 On behalf of Hillary Rodham Clinton:
3 ROBERT M. CARY, ESQUIRE
Williams & Connolly
4 725 Twelfth Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
5 (202) 434-5175
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1 C O N T E N T S
2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5
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BACON DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
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No. 1 - Letter, Bacon to Thurmond 117
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No. 2 - Notice of Deposition Duces 185
7 Tecum, Attachments
8 No. 3 - The Washington Post Article 255
by Nat Hentoff
9
No. 4 - The Washington Post Article 256
10 by Jane Mayer
11 No. 5 - Letter, Lawsky to Klayman 260
Attachments
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No. 6 - Fox News Sunday Transcript 345
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 Whereupon,
3 KENNETH H. BACON
4 was called as a witness and, having been
5 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
6 as follows:
7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Will you please state your name,
10 sir.
11 A My name is Kenneth H. Bacon.
12 Q When were you born?
13 A I was born in November 1944.
14 Q Where were you born?
15 A I was born in Bronxville, New York.
16 Q Where did you attend high school?
17 A Phillips Exeter Academy.
18 Q Where is that located?
19 A Exeter, New Hampshire.
20 Q What year did you graduate?
21 A 1962.
22 Q What, if anything, did you do at
6
1 that time? Did you go to a university?
2 A I went to college.
3 Q Where did you attend?
4 A Amherst College.
5 Q Did you graduate from Amherst
6 College?
7 A I did.
8 Q What year was that?
9 A 1966.
10 Q What was your major during Amherst
11 College?
12 A English.
13 Q During the time that you attended
14 Amherst College, were you ever subject to any
15 disciplinary proceedings?
16 A I was not.
17 Q What, if anything, did you do after
18 you graduated from Amherst?
19 A I went to graduate school.
20 Q Where did you attend?
21 A Columbia University.
22 Q What was the nature of the graduate
7
1 school?
2 A Business and journalism.
3 Q Did there come a point in time when
4 you graduated from Columbia?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When was that?
7 A 1968.
8 Q In 1968, did you then seek
9 employment?
10 A I did.
11 Q Did you find it?
12 A I did.
13 Q Where did you obtain employment?
14 A I worked at the U.S. Senate.
15 Q The U.S. Senate?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Who did you work for?
18 A Thomas J. McIntyre.
19 Q What was your position?
20 A Legislative Assistant.
21 Q Mr. McIntyre was from which state?
22 A New Hampshire.
8
1 Q He was a Democrat?
2 A He was.
3 Q What was your position with
4 Mr. McIntyre?
5 MR. MURPHY: Asked and answered.
6 You can answer.
7 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat it
8 again.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q What were your duties and
11 responsibilities?
12 A My duties and responsibilities were
13 basically to answer mail and to handle
14 certain legislative issues.
15 Q Who was your immediate supervisor
16 in that office?
17 A Allan S. Novans.
18 Q Do you know where he is today?
19 A Tel Aviv.
20 Q What's his position?
21 A Retired.
22 Q Did there come a point in time when
9
1 you left Senator McIntyre's office?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Where did you go at that time?
4 A United States Army.
5 Q What year was that?
6 A 1969.
7 Q What was the capacity that you
8 joined the United States Army?
9 A I went to basic training as a
10 reservist.
11 Q How long did you spend in the Army?
12 A I spent four months in active duty.
13 Q Were you drafted into the Army at
14 that time?
15 A I was not.
16 Q You enlisted voluntarily?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You spent four months of active
19 duty where? In Vietnam?
20 A No. I was at Fort Dix. I was in
21 the reserves.
22 Q I take it you enlisted in the
10
1 reserves to avoid being drafted?
2 MR. MURPHY: Objection. You can
3 answer that.
4 THE WITNESS: I enlisted in the
5 reserves to satisfy my duty to my country.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q How long did you stay in the
8 reserves?
9 A Six years.
10 Q Did you do anything else during
11 that period of time?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What did you do?
14 A I worked for a newspaper.
15 Q Which newspaper?
16 A The Wall Street Journal.
17 Q Did you leave the reserves with an
18 honorable discharge?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Did you ever have any disciplinary
21 issues while you were in the reserves?
22 A No, I did not.
11
1 Q How did you obtain your job with
2 the Wall Street Journal?
3 A I applied and got the job.
4 Q What year was that?
5 A 1969.
6 Q Who did you apply with, the person?
7 A Well, I had worked for the Wall
8 Street Journal during two summers when I was
9 in school and I applied with Allan Otten, who
10 was then the Bureau of Chief in Washington.
11 Q What specific position did you
12 obtain with him?
13 A I was a regulatory reporter.
14 Q Which meant that you wrote about
15 regulatory issues in Washington, D.C.?
16 A That's right.
17 Q You were based here?
18 A Yes.
19 Q How long did you stay with the Wall
20 Street Journal?
21 A 25 years.
22 Q Did your position change during the
12
1 course of those 25 years from regulatory
2 reporter?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Tell me what were your different
5 positions and when you received those
6 different positions.
7 A Well, I don't think I can recall
8 with great precision.
9 Q Just roughly.
10 A I covered a variety of things,
11 regulatory agencies. I covered the treasury.
12 I covered the Pentagon. I covered education,
13 banking and the Federal Reserve Board and I
14 worked as an editor.
15 Q During those 25 years who did you
16 work most closely with at the Wall Street
17 Journal?
18 A Well, it changed over time but I
19 worked always with my bureau chief. There
20 were four bureau chiefs during the time I was
21 there, and I worked very closely with the
22 reporters in my section, whatever my section
13
1 was at the time.
2 Q Who were the bureau chiefs while
3 you were at the Wall Street Journal?
4 A Allan Otten, Norman C. Miller,
5 Albert Hunt and Allan Murray.
6 Q Are many of them still there?
7 A Two are still there.
8 Q Do you know where the other two
9 are?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Which ones and where are they?
12 A Allan Otten is retired and lives in
13 Maryland and Norman C. Miller is retired and
14 lives in Pasadena, California.
15 Q Up to what point did you cease
16 working for the Wall Street Journal?
17 A 1994.
18 Q Now, in the course of your work for
19 the Wall Street Journal, did you get to know
20 people associated with Governor Bill Clinton?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you get to know people
14
1 associated with Governor Bill Clinton in some
2 other way?
3 MR. MURPHY: Let me just ask you,
4 Mr. Klayman, you mean while President Clinton
5 was governor? During the term of his office
6 as a governor?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Right. Up to him
8 becoming president.
9 THE WITNESS: I should revise my
10 answer. I briefly covered education, and
11 during that period I had occasion to talk
12 with people on the staff of Governor Clinton
13 who was then an official with the National
14 Governors Conference and interested in
15 education.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Who did you have occasion to talk
18 with?
19 A I'm afraid I cannot recall their
20 names.
21 Q Were any of them people who since
22 have become known in the public domain?
15
1 A No.
2 MR. MURPHY: Maybe in Little Rock.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Possibly, yes. After
4 the president became the president, after
5 Governor Clinton won the election in 1992,
6 did you have occasion to have contact with
7 anybody in the Clinton Administration either
8 in terms of your duties and responsibilities
9 for the Wall Street Journal or privately?
10 THE WITNESS: As a reporter or
11 editor for the Wall Street Journal, I did
12 have occasion to talk with people in the
13 administration.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Who did you talk with and get to
16 know?
17 A I talked with Lloyd Bentsen, who
18 was Secretary of the Treasury, and I talked
19 with Larry Somers, who was Deputy Secretary
20 of the Treasury. These were all in my
21 capacities as a reporter. I talked with
22 Frank Newman, who was Undersecretary of the
16
1 Treasury, and a variety of other treasury
2 officials.
3 Q Can you name them for us?
4 A Not with any degree of accuracy,
5 no, at this stage.
6 Q Well, either you know somebody or
7 you don't. I'm not asking for pinpoint
8 accuracy.
9 A Well, you're asking me to go back
10 through my rolodex as a reporter 6 years
11 after the time, 5-and-a-half years.
12 Q Well, are there any other people
13 that come to mind right now?
14 A Roger Altman, Josh Diner, David
15 Knight, Eugene Ludwig, who was comptroller of
16 the currency; William Seidman, who was the
17 head of the FDIC. I dealt with people on a
18 fairly regular basis on the Federal Reserve
19 Board, including the Chairman, Allan
20 Greenspan, and Larry Lindsey, who is a member
21 of the Federal Reserve Board, dealt with
22 banking issues.
17
1 I dealt with a number of staffers
2 in all of these agencies, the FDIC, the
3 Office of Thrift Supervision, the Regulation
4 Trust Company, the corporation, the Treasury,
5 Office of the Comptroller of Currency, et
6 cetera.
7 Q This was in the course of your
8 duties and responsibilities at the Wall
9 Street Journal you came in contact with these
10 people?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Forgive me if I'm going over ground
13 that you covered. Is this because you were
14 covering financial matters?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You were the editor of financial
17 matters?
18 A Well, I had several jobs. For a
19 period I was a reporter and I was covering
20 banking and finance, and after that I became
21 an editor.
22 Q During the period that you were
18
1 still with the Wall Street Journal and got to
2 know these people in the Clinton
3 Administration in your professional capacity,
4 did you get to know anybody else in your
5 personal capacity who worked for the Clinton
6 Administration?
7 A No.
8 Q Specifically, did you ever have a
9 chance to meet or talk with Sidney
10 Blumenthal?
11 A I've never met Sidney Blumenthal.
12 Q Have you ever talked with him?
13 A No.
14 Q James Carville?
15 A I have never met James Carville and
16 I have never talked to him.
17 Q Ann Lewis?
18 A I have never met Ann Lewis. I may
19 have spoken to her once on the telephone.
20 Q Mike McCurry?
21 A I have spoken to Mike McCurry.
22 Q Did you get to know him during that
19
1 period at the Wall Street Journal?
2 A No, I did not get to know Mike
3 McCurry until 1994.
4 Q We're just talking about the period
5 at the Wall Street Journal.
6 A I did not talk to Ann Lewis while I
7 worked for the Wall Street Journal.
8 Q Anybody else who was in the White
9 House before or currently in the White House
10 now under the Clinton Administration, a
11 lawyer with the Wall Street Journal that you
12 talked with?
13 A I did talk with Gene Spurling from
14 time to time. I talked with Robert Rubin
15 from time to time. I talked with Joe
16 Steigletts from time to time. I talked with
17 Laura Tyson from time to time. I talked with
18 Phil Laeder.
19 Q Who is Phil Laeder?
20 A Phil Leader is the ambassador to
21 London.
22 Q L-a-e-d-e-r?
20
1 A Yes.
2 Q Anyone else?
3 A I'm sure there were other people I
4 talked to.
5 I talked to a fellow called Paul
6 Diamond from time to time, a person named
7 Ellen Sideman from time to time. These were
8 all people I talked to in my capacity.
9 Q Have you ever talked to George
10 Stephanopoulos during that period?
11 A During that period, I did not.
12 Q Mack McLarty?
13 A Not during that period.
14 Q Bruce Lindsey?
15 A No.
16 Q Harold Ickes?
17 A Wait a minute. Bruce Lindsay? I
18 don't believe I ever spoke to him.
19 Q Harold Ickes?
20 A Not during that period.
21 Q Alexis Herman?
22 A Not during that period.
21
1 Q Leon Panetta?
2 A Not during that period.
3 Q Hillary Clinton?
4 A Not during that period.
5 Q Now, there came a point in time
6 when obviously you left the Wall Street
7 Journal. What did you do then?
8 A I went to work at the Defense
9 Department.
10 Q What was your position when you
11 went to work for the Defense Department?
12 A I was Assistant to the Secretary of
13 Defense for Public Affairs.
14 Q Let me back up a little bit.
15 Before you left the Wall Street Journal and
16 joined the Defense Department, had you ever
17 talked or met President Bill Clinton?
18 A I may have met him once at a
19 National Governors Conference meeting in
20 Washington.
21 Q Tell me how it is you got your job
22 as Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public
22
1 Affairs.
2 A I was asked by an acquaintance if I
3 was interested in the job. That query came
4 in the spring of 1994. I said I would be
5 interested. I then had a series of
6 interviews and was selected for the job.
7 Q Who was the acquaintance?
8 A Thomas Ross.
9 Q Who is Tom Ross?
10 A Tom Ross is an executive for Loral
11 Corporation. At the time he handled the
12 press for the National Security Council.
13 Q How did you get to know Tom Ross?
14 A When I covered the Pentagon in the
15 late 1970's, he was the Assistant Secretary
16 of Defense for Public Affairs.
17 Q You had covered the Pentagon in
18 the 70's?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What was your capacity at the Wall
21 Street Journal at that time?
22 A I was a reporter.
23
1 Q You were dealing with military
2 affairs?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Who contacted who? Did you contact
5 Tom Ross and say, "I'm interested in this
6 job," or did he contact you?
7 A Tom Ross called me.
8 Q What did he say to you when you
9 spoke with him specifically, as much as you
10 can recollect?
11 A Well, I have an imprecise
12 recollection, but he asked me if I would be
13 interested. He said that he knew that I knew
14 Bill Perry and that Bill Perry, who was then
15 Secretary of Defense, thought highly of me.
16 Would I be interested in putting my name into
17 the ring as one of the candidates. I said
18 let me think about it for a day or two. I
19 called him back and said I would be.
20 Q How had you gotten to know Bill
21 Perry before?
22 A When I covered the Defense
24
1 Department during the Carter Administration,
2 Bill Perry was the Undersecretary of Defense
3 for Acquisitions Research -- for Research and
4 Acquisitions.
5 Q Did you come into contact with
6 Mr. Perry in a close context? I mean, did
7 you work closely with him on certain issues?
8 A Well, I wrote a number of stories
9 about programs he was directing. One was the
10 Cruise Missile Program. One was the MX
11 Missile Program. He was somebody that I
12 interviewed on a fairly regular basis as a
13 reporter.
14 Q Had you ever gone out to lunch with
15 Mr. Perry or dinner or anything like that?
16 A No, not at that time.
17 Q Was there anybody else who
18 contacted you about the job at the Pentagon?
19 A Well, after I talked to Tom Ross in
20 May or June, I was asked to -- I was called
21 by the office of John Deutch, who was then
22 Deputy Secretary of Defense, and asked to
25
1 come in for an interview.
2 Q Did you come in for an interview?
3 A I did.
4 Q Did you obtain recommendations for
5 your job application?
6 A I did not.
7 Q You interviewed then with
8 Mr. Deutch?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did Mr. Deutch then explain to you
11 why they were interested in your
12 qualifications?
13 A Not with any specificity.
14 Q What was discussed during that
15 interview, as much as you can remember?
16 A Well, it was about half an hour
17 long. He basically told me what the
18 challenges of the job were, asked me what my
19 philosophy for the job would be. We talked
20 about some of the public affairs issues
21 facing the Pentagon and what my approach
22 would be to them.
26
1 Q Of course he mentioned to you that
2 they wanted to hire somebody who not only
3 understood military affairs but somebody who
4 would be loyal to the administration,
5 correct?
6 A He did not.
7 Q They were not interested in
8 loyalty?
9 A He did not mention loyalty to me.
10 Q You assumed that obviously they
11 wanted people that they could trust; correct?
12 A I did not assume anything. I went
13 to the interview and answered his questions.
14 Q So is it your understanding that
15 they wanted to hire somebody that they would
16 not trust?
17 A As I said, I didn't think about it,
18 one way or another.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll take a
20 one-minute break. I'll be right back.
21 MR. MURPHY: Just one minute.
22 (Recess)
27
1 MR. KLAYMAN: So you're saying that
2 it was your understanding that the Clinton
3 Administration really didn't care whether or
4 not you could be trusted or were loyal when
5 they discussed employment with you?
6 MR. MURPHY: I object to the
7 mischaracterization of his testimony, but you
8 can answer the question.
9 THE WITNESS: I did not say that.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Well, did that come across in the
12 interview, that loyalty and trust certainly
13 was a qualification for the job?
14 A It did not.
15 Q You assumed, of course, that was
16 the qualification for the job?
17 A As I said, we talked about Defense
18 Department issues only and we talked about
19 how I would deal with certain public affairs
20 problems. It was really more a question of
21 philosophy of dealing with press problems
22 than anything else.
28
1 Q Well, my question was whether or
2 not you perceived that that was a
3 qualification for the job.
4 A I understand your question. I've
5 answered it.
6 Q Did you perceive that to be a
7 qualification for the job?
8 A As I said, we talked about Defense
9 Department issues.
10 Q This is a legal proceeding. I'm
11 sure you know that. It's not an issue of
12 whether or not you may perceive my question
13 in a different way. Let me be very precise
14 in the questions and we'll move this thing
15 along faster if you actually answer the
16 question.
17 My question was whether at the time
18 you were being interviewed for the job you
19 perceived that the Clinton Administration,
20 you, Ken Bacon, understood that one of the
21 qualifications that the Clinton
22 Administration was looking for was whether
29
1 they could trust you and whether you were
2 loyal.
3 MR. MURPHY: Objection,
4 Mr. Klayman. He didn't seek a job with the
5 Clinton Administration. He sought a job with
6 the Department of Defense. Maybe if you
7 would characterize your question more
8 appropriately, he would be able to answer it
9 more precisely.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's your
11 opinion. Please do not feed testimony to the
12 witness.
13 MR. MURPHY: I'm not doing that,
14 Mr. Klayman.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: We have a number of
16 motions pending with regard to that kind of
17 conduct, Mr. Murphy.
18 Please certify it.
19 MR. MURPHY: Not against me,
20 Mr. Klayman.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I hope we don't
22 have to. So far we've had pleasant
30
1 discussions.
2 MR. MURPHY: I'll be very pleasant
3 as long as you are.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm pleasant. I just
5 want an answer to the question.
6 MR. MURPHY: Ask a question.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to
8 instruct your client in terms of how
9 questions have to be answered at depositions.
10 MR. MURPHY: I'm advising you to
11 ask a question that makes more sense and
12 perhaps he can answer.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I will ask the
14 questions as I want to ask the questions.
15 MR. MURPHY: Fine. If you want to
16 ask nonsensical questions.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that you not
18 interrupt. It's not nonsensical, and I
19 resent that characterization. We're not
20 going to meet the press here where you get to
21 dodge the answer. We're in a situation
22 called a deposition.
31
1 MR. MURPHY: Mr. Klayman, we're
2 aware of where we are.
3 Mr. Bacon would like to have your
4 question repeated. Would you, please, repeat
5 it.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll repeat it again.
7 Did you, at the time that you were being
8 interviewed for a job by the Defense
9 Department, which is part of the Clinton
10 Administration, perceive that loyalty and
11 trust were two of the criteria that they were
12 looking for?
13 THE WITNESS: That is a very
14 complex question. I would like to
15 deconstruct it.
16 First, I was having an interview
17 with the Department of Defense. This was the
18 first time I had met Secretary Deutch. It
19 was a relatively brief interview. I would
20 say about 30 minutes. We spoke exclusively
21 about Defense Department issues.
22 At the time I had this interview I
32
1 did not believe that I would ultimately end
2 up in this job in the Defense Department.
3 He made it very clear to me that
4 there were a number of other candidates they
5 were looking at and I concentrated only on
6 thinking about and talking about Defense
7 Department issues. The element of trust
8 between me and Mr. Deutch, between me and
9 Dr. Perry obviously was in my head, but trust
10 did not flow any higher than Dr. Deutch or
11 Dr. Perry during that conversation.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Did the concept of loyalty, was
14 that also in your head at that time?
15 A No.
16 Q That is a basic requirement for any
17 employer/employee relationship, trust and
18 loyalty, is it not?
19 A Sir, this was the first interview
20 that I had in a job process that I basically
21 assumed was not going to go anywhere. So I
22 said, as I have said several times, talked
33
1 and thought about press issues facing the
2 Pentagon. Those were the questions that were
3 put to me by Dr. Deutch. Those were the
4 questions I answered. This was really a
5 get-to-know-you interview for Dr. Deutch.
6 Q At any point in the interview
7 process leading up to your job, you did
8 perceive, did you not, that it was necessary
9 that you be loyal to the employers that were
10 going to hire you?
11 A No. That was never explicitly
12 stated.
13 Q No. I asked whether you perceived
14 that, whether you understood that.
15 A I perceived that if I got this job,
16 I would be joining a team at the Defense
17 Department and that they would expect me to
18 work with them in a trustworthy relationship,
19 yes.
20 Q Which you equate trustworthy with
21 loyalty? My question was loyalty.
22 A I thought in terms of
34
1 trustworthiness.
2 Q My question was whether you equate
3 trustworthiness with loyalty.
4 MR. MURPHY: I think the Boy Scouts
5 treat them separately.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I've never been in
7 the Boy Scouts, as you probably guessed.
8 THE WITNESS: I guess I never
9 really thought of it in those terms.
10 MR. MURPHY: Trustworthy, loyal,
11 helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient,
12 service, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I was a Cub Scout.
14 MR. MURPHY: I can tell.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I decided it wasn't
16 my style.
17 MR. MURPHY: I can tell,
18 Mr. Klayman.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Do you have
20 another question?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Was the answer yes?
22 THE WITNESS: The answer was I
35
1 never really equated, I never thought in
2 terms of trustworthiness or loyalty.
3 Clearly, when you accept a job you accept a
4 degree of trust. You expect a degree of
5 trust, both the employer and the employee do.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q I'm just trying to get your
8 understanding of what an employment
9 relationship is all about. Is not loyalty to
10 the employer a factor in the
11 employer/employee relationship, based on your
12 experience, your many years in the
13 professional world?
14 A Yes. I think loyalty comes with
15 working closely with people you trust.
16 Q So they are two factors, as your
17 counsel pointed out kindly, in any
18 relationship, is it not, trust and loyalty?
19 A In good relationships, yes.
20 Q Now, after you met with Mr. Deutch,
21 did you then meet with others?
22 A I assume he did.
36
1 Q Not him, but did you meet with
2 others in order to interview for that
3 position at the Pentagon?
4 A I did not meet with anybody else
5 until July.
6 Q Did you talk to others during that
7 period?
8 A Not within the Defense Department,
9 no.
10 Q Who did you talk to outside of the
11 Defense Department?
12 A I talked to two people.
13 Q Who?
14 A My Bureau Chief, Allan Murray, and
15 my wife.
16 Q I won't ask you what you said to
17 your wife, but I will ask you what you said
18 to Allan Murray.
19 A I told Allan Murray that I had been
20 approached by Tom Ross, that I hadn't thought
21 much of it when the approach came in the
22 spring, March or so, but when I went in and
37
1 interviewed with John Deutch there was a
2 possibility that I would get the job. I
3 wanted him to know about it. I still thought
4 the chances were remote.
5 We decided mutually that at that
6 point I should stop working as a reporter
7 covering financial matters. Then I was
8 working on international finance, I believe,
9 the dollar/yen ratio, things like that. That
10 I should stop covering those matters and
11 worked exclusively as an editor, which I
12 started doing.
13 Q In the course of your discussions
14 with the Pentagon or others in the Clinton
15 Administration leading up to your actual
16 offer of employment, who did you meet, speak
17 with or communicate with in the Clinton
18 Administration?
19 A Well, my second interview was with
20 Dr. Perry and that was in early July. After
21 that, I was notified a day or two later that
22 I was his candidate for the job.
38
1 Q Where did you interview with him?
2 A I interviewed in the Pentagon.
3 Q In his office?
4 A Yes.
5 Q During the time that you were being
6 considered for employment, you did write
7 stories, however, that somehow touched on the
8 Clinton Administration, correct?
9 A Well, I would have to go back and
10 check the record on that. My recollection is
11 that after I told Allan Murray, I moved
12 pretty quickly into an editorial position and
13 stopped writing. I may have written a story
14 or two after that. I may have written
15 several stories, for all I know. There may
16 have been stories in the pipeline that ran,
17 but I would have to go back and check the
18 record.
19 Q How long was your meeting with
20 Secretary Perry?
21 A It was probably 45 minutes.
22 Q What did he say to you during that
39
1 meeting?
2 A He basically described what he
3 thought his public affairs problems were,
4 what his public affairs challenges were. He
5 described the type of person he was looking
6 for and he described the circumstances, the
7 conditions under which he felt the job could
8 be done successfully and what a person had to
9 bring to that job to be able to do the job
10 successfully.
11 Q During that interview he explained
12 to you that good relations with the White
13 House were necessary for this job?
14 A He said to me that he wanted a
15 person who kept the White House informed of
16 what he was doing and also kept him informed
17 of what the White House priorities were at
18 any given time.
19 Q You understood that to be your
20 duties and responsibilities if chosen for
21 this job?
22 A I understood that to be part of my
40
1 duties and responsibilities.
2 Q He wanted a person that would also
3 maintain good relations with Congress, I take
4 it?
5 A That's not my job.
6 Q In terms of maintaining or at least
7 keeping the White House informed of what was
8 going on at the Pentagon, was it understood
9 or stated expressly that you would be in
10 communication with the White House Press
11 Secretary?
12 A I don't believe he stated that
13 expressly, but it was certainly assumed.
14 Q Who else was it assumed that you
15 would be in contact with to keep the White
16 House informed?
17 A I think it was only the Press
18 Secretary through basically the press
19 reporting side.
20 Q You are the equivalent of the White
21 House Press Secretary currently as Press
22 Secretary of the Defense Department, correct?
41
1 A I hold the same job; that is,
2 dealing with the press, yes.
3 Q Are there meetings of the press
4 secretaries in the different departments of
5 the Executive Branch from time to time?
6 A It is extremely rare.
7 Q But it has happened?
8 A There have been meetings at which
9 several of us have been present.
10 Q Getting back to your meeting with
11 Secretary Perry, you said he explained to you
12 the type of person he was looking for?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What did he tell you?
15 A He told me that he wanted a person
16 who understood issues, who understood the
17 press, who was a straight shooter and shared
18 his philosophy for dealing with the press and
19 somebody who could keep him informed of
20 stories that were developing, stories that
21 were on the horizon, somebody who could
22 select media opportunities for him and
42
1 prepare him for those opportunities, and
2 somebody who could accurately explain what
3 the Pentagon policies were to the public and
4 the press.
5 Q He also told you that it was very
6 important that what you say and do as Press
7 Secretary of the Defense Department not be in
8 conflict with the White House?
9 A He did not explain that to me, no.
10 Q But you understood that to be
11 obviously part of the role?
12 A It did not come up in the
13 interview.
14 Q It came up later, though, didn't
15 it?
16 A Not in the terms you've described
17 it.
18 Q In what terms did it come up?
19 A Well, one of my jobs is to inform
20 the White House of what Secretary Perry has
21 said on various issues, particularly if he's
22 traveling -- now Secretary Cohen, then
43
1 Secretary Perry. I also talk daily with the
2 White House press operation in a noon
3 conference call to find out what they're
4 saying on certain issues. I inform the
5 Secretary of Defense if I believe he needs to
6 be informed of what's being said on certain
7 issues.
8 Q Particularly in the area of defense
9 matters, it's very important that the
10 Pentagon not be in contradiction with the
11 White House and vice versa. Close
12 synchronization is required, is it not?
13 A We do try to speak with the same
14 voice on defense and foreign policy matters,
15 yes.
16 Q For that matter, on all issues for
17 which you're speaking, you don't want to come
18 in conflict with the White House because of
19 the very nature of what the Pentagon does?
20 A Well, the issues I speak on are
21 different issues.
22 Q Correct. When you speak about
44
1 employees, obviously that's related to
2 defense issues, correct? Indirectly?
3 A I have never talked about matters
4 of employees with the Pentagon press
5 office -- with the White House press office.
6 Q That wasn't my question. My
7 question was whether or not if you did make a
8 statement about an employee, since that
9 employee works for the Pentagon there would
10 be an indirect relationship between defense
11 matters and that employee?
12 A Very indirect.
13 Q But a relationship does exist
14 because obviously employees of the Pentagon
15 are there to further defense, correct?
16 A Yes, that's true.
17 Q Now, what else did Secretary Perry
18 tell you?
19 A I would like to amend one thing I
20 said. I said that I had never talked about
21 an employee matter with the White House press
22 operation. That is not the case because
45
1 there have been matters that I have discussed
2 with them.
3 Q What did you discuss with them?
4 MS. WEISMANN: I'm going to discuss
5 to that question and direct him not to answer
6 to the extent it calls for information
7 outside of that which he has been authorized
8 to speak to; namely, information concerning
9 the recent disclosure of information
10 contained in the Federal Security Clearance
11 Form of Linda Tripp. To the extent he has
12 information within that area, he may answer;
13 otherwise, he's directed not to answer.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let's get the
15 answer first and then I'll quibble with your
16 objection.
17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. She just
18 objected so I can't answer.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: You can answer if
20 you've ever talk to the White House, anybody
21 in the White House.
22 MS. WEISMANN: I will direct him to
46
1 what he can answer.
2 You can answer to the extent that
3 you have information in response to his
4 question concerning the release of
5 information about Linda Tripp. To the extent
6 that that subject matter has been part of the
7 discussions you've had in response to his
8 question, you may answer. To the extent that
9 the subject matter is something other than
10 that, you are directed not to answer.
11 THE WITNESS: I have not discussed
12 Linda Tripp with the White House Press
13 Office.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Have you discussed Linda Tripp with
16 anyone at the White House?
17 A Not that I can recall.
18 Q Well, does that mean yes or no?
19 A I don't believe that I have.
20 Q But you're not sure?
21 A I'm 99 percent sure.
22 Q Have you ever discussed Monica
47
1 Lewinsky with anyone at the White House?
2 MS. WEISMANN: I object to the
3 question as calling for information outside
4 of that which he has been authorized to
5 testify to and direct him not to answer.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. That
7 issue is pending. We may have a hearing
8 later today on that.
9 MS. WEISMANN: Counsel, if you have
10 any information from the Court, I'll ask that
11 you share it with all the counsels here
12 present.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, all the
14 information I have is that we filed a motion
15 and we requested a hearing.
16 MS. WEISMANN: Have you heard back
17 from the Court, counsel?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: No, we have not.
19 It's my understanding that Judge Lambert will
20 not be coming into the office until 2 p.m.,
21 so we have requested a hearing if that's what
22 the Court decides to do after 2 p.m. That's
48
1 the information I have.
2 In addition, we obviously do take
3 issue with the fact that we were not provided
4 with these instructions until about 2:30
5 yesterday afternoon after we had asked for a
6 response from the Department of Defense and
7 from the Clinton Justice Department by close
8 of business on Wednesday, the 13th of May.
9 We view this as yet another way to try to
10 back these issues up against the wall right
11 up against the deposition.
12 It's very similar conduct to what
13 occurred with trying to get Mr. Bernath to
14 testify timely, but we'll leave that for the
15 hearing.
16 MR. MURPHY: Is there a question
17 pending?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. You're
19 instructing him not to answer on the Lewinsky
20 question?
21 MS. WEISMANN: That is correct.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll come back to
49
1 the issue of Linda Tripp and communications
2 with the White House, but for right now tell
3 me what, if anything else, did Secretary
4 Perry tell you about the type of person he
5 wanted.
6 THE WITNESS: I think I have
7 basically given you my recollection of the
8 conversation. The bulk of the conversation
9 was his description of what he thought to be
10 his public affairs challenges, what his goals
11 were and what he was looking for, and he
12 asked me if I thought I could meet those
13 challenges.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q What did he tell you that the
16 conditions of the job were such that it could
17 be done successfully? That was another major
18 area that you said was discussed with
19 Secretary Perry.
20 A He basically said that to do this
21 job well a person has to get into the head of
22 four people and he named the four people.
50
1 Then he said well, basically, since we tend
2 to all agree, you probably only have to get
3 into the head of one or two of us.
4 Q Who are the four people?
5 A The four people were the Secretary
6 of Defense, the Deputy Secretary of Defense,
7 the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
8 and the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
9 Staff.
10 Q Who are these people at the time
11 that Linda Tripp's information from her
12 personnel file were released? Who were in
13 those positions?
14 A The people in those positions then
15 were Secretary Cohen, Deputy Secretary Henry,
16 Chairman Shelton and Vice Chairman Ralston.
17 Q During the meeting with Secretary
18 Perry, I take it you told him --
19 A I must tell you, sir, that I don't
20 see the relevance, however, of that question
21 to the previous question.
22 Q There doesn't have to be relevance